Legal Ponderings

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A commentor on this blog who goes by the name Mapsmith contributed thoughts to the discussion of the legal issues surrounding ownership of the chest once it’s found. I thought the points were really well thought out and deserving of a spotlight for their clarity. Makes me wonder what Forrest actually considered when he hid the chest…

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FROM MAPSMITH
My feeling is a millionaire putting a million dollars gift out there -like any million dollar investment- didn’t do so without first consulting an expensive lawyer.

1. He didn’t leave a gold mine, nor a sack of gold, he left an antique box , His box, that is specifically from a time/culture/place that could NOT have been in the Rockies. There’s no way NPS or BLM can claim “that was already there”.

2. It’s Fenn’s personal property, like if a millionaire hiker lost a very expensive watch. You can pick it up. The poem in fact is a “lost” flyer: the hypothetical millionaire is asking for help in finding his watch. Additionally /actually, he’s said there’s a reward for return of 1 bracelet in the trove : if he decides to reward me (with a box of gold) for finding his bracelet, that’s not illegal. At all – lost & found rewards aren’t regulated.

3. He chose to put wording in the poem that legally declares the gold a trove and grants title transfer. “Troves” have completely different rules, left over in some cases from mine stake eras- and this could help protect legal right further.

4. Those familiar with law school might know this one– there are certain areas of the US where jurisdiction is in question to the point where legal scholars still don’t have an answer: law students hate being challenged with questions like “how would a crime here ever be tried?” & “if a jury could never be raised, the bill of rights rights couldn’t be fulfilled, right?”
Ok. Fine.
Well,
…two of those jurisdiction ‘no man zone’ areas are in Yellowstone

Mapsmith…

276 thoughts on “Legal Ponderings

  1. In an audio only video at Collected Works Bookstore dated April 17, 2013, Forrest stated that the finder of the chest would be subject to “earned income taxes.” Earned income does not apply here since earned income involves wages, salaries and tips. Forrest most likely did not consult a lawyer when he used this term.

    Another option is that it would be under the gift tax ruling, where Forrest (the giver) would be subject to the tax. This would be up to the IRS to determine the status of the chest since Forrest stated he “gives title” to the chest. Forrest obviously did not want to pay taxes on the chest when he used the earned income statement.

    A third consideration is that the treasure may be considered a prize. When Oprah Winfrey gave away a new car to every person in the audience one day, the audience members were required to pay an average tax of $7000 based on the sticker price of the car to the IRS.

    • Here’s the final word on legalities and tax issues:

      The framework of the law of lost and found property law in the common law jurisdictions in the United States is based on a distinction among lost, mislaid, and abandoned property.

      “Abandoned property is property that the owner throws away or voluntarily forsakes its possession, and the first person to find it gets absolute title.

      Lost property is property that the owner involuntarily parted with through neglect, carelessness, or inadvertence, and of whose whereabouts the owner has no knowledge, and the finder gets title against everyone except the true owner.

      Mislaid property is that which is intentionally put into a certain place and later forgotten. e.g. the owner places a hat on a hat rack in a restaurant, but forgets to take the hat upon leaving.” Terry v. Lock, 37 S.W.3d 202, 206 (Ark. 2001) (enumerating the elements of abandoned property).

      Forrest Fenn’s treasure clearly falls under the definition of “abandoned property”.

      Where it gets a bit murky is further defining Fenn’s abandoned property in a legal context.

      “In addition to the lost/mislaid/abandoned distinction, United States courts distinguish two further types of lost property: Embedded property and treasure trove.

      Embedded property is property that is buried in the land, unless it is treasure trove. Courts have ruled that embedded property includes lumber company scrip, a gilded lead statue of George III, a meteorite, a prehistoric Indian canoe, old ceramics, and gold-bearing quartz.

      Treasure trove is refined gold and silver, either as bullion or made into coin, plus paper money, since the paper representatives of gold and silver are deemed to be treasure trove as well. Treasure trove is buried or otherwise hidden or concealed. It need not be fixed to the land, but can be hidden in a moveable object: Courts have been willing to consider as treasure”

      Cf. Benjamin v. Lindner Aviation, Inc., 534 N.W.2d 400, 407 (Iowa 1995) Cf. Campbell v. Cochran, 410 A.2d 211, 215 (Del. Super. Ct. 1980) Cf. United States v. Peter, 178 F.Supp. 854, 855-56 (E.D. La. 1959).

      So, one would assume that by legal definition, Fenn’s tresure would considered an “abandoned treasure trove”, however that is not the case, unless it isn’t found in the next 60 years.

      ” A treasure trove has the thought of antiquity: A find of money must have been concealed so long that it is unlikely that the true owner will re-appear before a court will consider it treasure trove. This language originated in a 1956 Oregon case where the money had been concealed for less than a year. The courts have not enunciated a bright line rule as to how many years will allow a find to be considered treasure trove. The consensus appears to be several decades, perhaps three or more. A 2001 case decided that eleven years was too little time for a find to be considered treasure trove; a 1995 case considered that thirty-five years might be sufficient; a 1991 case stated that fifty-nine years might be sufficient. Thus a coin hoard is treated as treasure trove if it is old enough; otherwise, it is treated as lost, abandoned, or mislaid.” See Hill v. Schrunk, 292 P.2d 141, 143 (Ore. 1956). Cf. Terry v. Lock, 37 S.W.3d 202, 203, 208-9 (Ark. 2001), Cf. Benjamin v. Lindner Aviation, Inc. 534 N.W.2d 400, 407 (Iowa 1995)

      So, if the treasure is found within the next half-century, it will not be considered a treasure trove, but simply willfully abandoned property.

      Can others claim partial or full ownership of an abandoned treasure: Yes, depending upon where it was found

      “Approximately half of the states have statutes prescribing the disposition of lost property.53 Under these statutes, the finder must inform the police of the find and
      place the item in their custody. The police search for the owner by posting a notice in the courthouse or advertising in a newspaper. If the owner does not reclaim the property within a certain period of time – the periods range from ninety days to one year – the title to the property vests in the finder. Nowadays, when finders prevail against locus owners, they are more likely to do so through one of these statutory schemes, rather than through a treasure trove claim. The courts are leery of divesting the true owner of any rights merely by a characterization of the property as abandoned, lost, mislaid, embedded, or treasure trove, and prefer statutory schemes that provide a certain modicum of due process before the property is vested in a new owner. When the true owner emerges after the statutory period has expired, the courts have been most vigorous in defending the rights of the new owner.” See Willsmore v. Township of Oceola, 308 N.W.2d 796, 800 (Mich. Ct. App. 1981). 53 See, eg., Alaska Stat. §12.36.045; Cal. Civ. Code §2080; N.Y. Pers. Prop. §254 (Consol. 1988); Wis. Stat. §§170.07-170.11.

      These facts place the finder of Fenn’s treasure in a strange predicament, for the treasure is not lost, mislaid, embedded, or a treasure trove- but willfully abandoned. There should be no legal reason to place the treasure in the custody of the police given the very public nature of this abandonment, but if the police opted to play hardball, my guess is they could, and force the return of the treasure for the allotted legal time – while also accomplishing nothing other than possibly wrestling a fine and unnecessary travel expenses out of the finder. See United States v. Shivers, 96 F.3d 120, 123-24 (5th Cir. 1996), aff’g In re Shivers, 900 F.Supp. 60 (E.D. Tex. 1995). 87 See 568 F.Supp. 1562, 1566 and n.12 (S.D. Fla. 1981). 88 See Gerstenblith, supra note 8, at 596-97

      Where it is found is also critically important. If it is found on Federal property it cannot be removed. Even the removal of rocks from a Federally-designated park is a felony, although, given the nature of the treasure hunt, my guess is one might be able to split the prize with the Feds. The same is true for Indian reservations and State property. If Fenn stashed it on private property, the treasure would also belong entirely to the property owner unless express permission was given. The only area which would provide unfettered ownership would be if it was found on public lands.

      TAX LIABILTIES- are very clear…sort of.

      “The United States Federal government levies a tax upon income. Treasure trove is considered income for income tax purposes. This income tax is payable at the rate of ordinary income, not at the more favorable capital gains rate. According to the Treasury Regulation concerning treasure trove, “[t]reasure trove, to the extent of its value in United States currency, constitutes gross income for the taxable year in which it is reduced to undisputed possession.” Treas. Reg. §1.61-14 (as amended in 1993). The income tax law concerning treasure trove is discussed in Cesarini v. United States, 296 F.Supp. 3 (N.D. Ohio. 1969).

      The issue concerning Fenn’s treasure…is by the government’s own definition of a treasure trove, Fenn’s treasure does not qualify. It is simply abandoned property, but my guess is, the above rule would still apply… and taxes on what might be close to $2 million would force the finder, in almost all situations, to sell it immediately.

      • Paul;

        A very informative article. Thanks for sharing. Were
        I to be so lucky as to find the TC, how could I get in contact with you?

        Thanks for a reply.

        JD

      • Thanks Paul,
        Very educational.

        “So, if the treasure is found within the next half-century, it will not be considered a treasure trove, but simply willfully abandoned property.”

        “Can others claim partial or full ownership of an abandoned treasure: Yes, depending upon where it was found”

        I think it may be on Adjacent National Forest Land.
        That’s the color coding on the map I have of the Gallatin National Forest.
        Say someone did find it here, then what?

        Seems to me there’s going to be litigation’s no matter where you find it.

        • It’s my opinion (based upon some research) that the best scenario would be to locate the treasure on property Forrest owns, and have his permission in writing to enter the property and retreive. Perhaps that’s the ‘write way’ described in one scrap book. Biggest problem would be Forrest may not use his own name or anything we would recognize as him. Just some thoughts as we anticipate searching.

          • Lia,
            This begs the question. Does Forrest own any property 8+ miles North of SF in the RM’s? Probably not & if he does, I am sure the treasure is not there, but could say that’s where you found it.
            It’s nice to dream & plan ahead but I don’t think this is something we can be totally prepared for.
            I know one thing, I would not willingly hand it over to any government entity or anyone except for the hider.

          • Very unlikely it’s on property that he owns, this is the reason why. Forrest is past the average life expectancy and when he passes someone else, most likely a family member would inherent the property along with rightful owner ship to the chest. If thats the case one would have to find it while he is so still alive and that doesn’t seem to be the nature of the chase.

          • I don’t necessarily agree with this direction. Point in fact NM has an LLC that can be in any name. Anything owned by the LLC is transferable anominousily. Also the owner of the LLC is the one who has
            possession. All you need is a NM address, attorney, designated holder, etc. Read a book called “How to be Invisable”. It explains everything. I have rich friends that use these for protection from lawsuits among other things. The LLC is tax free, easily transferable and legal. I’m not an attorney so take this with a grain of salt.

        • The locus of the treasure is key. Only public land will provide you clear 100% possession. Removing it from Federal property is a felony (although technically, the depositing of it on Fed property is also illegal). The removal from State or private property is also illegal, and the penalty will vary from state to state and dependent upon the property owner. I would agree, that there will be litigation regardless. My guess is, if one was to remove it and bring it home, at a minimum they will eventually be required to prove where they found it so as to skirt criminal charges. If the area you are searching is outside of Gallatin National Forest and in public lands, you are probably fine.

          • Paul,
            Gallatin National Forest are public lands but owned by the Fed & maintained by the Forest Service & the USDA. I believe this is what I read on there website. So, what would you consider it to be? Public lands or Federal lands? I am confused by all the double speak & not sure what to believe about anything when the government is involved.

        • My spot is FURTHER complicated, possibly, by being in Gallatin NF, but being “non-forest serivce owned land” whatever that is. It’s owned by a “revocable trust”. wha?

          • The park is maintained and governed by the NPS, thus the NPS (i.e. the Feds), has jurisdiction. There are properties within many of the western parks, which were owned privately prior to the Feds making them into parks. Rather than force emanent domain, many, but not all of the landowners, were allowed to keep their land/properties within these parks- and these areas are definitely private property

          • Paul, thank you for your response. OK, you say maintained and governed by the Natl FOREST Service and it has “jurisdiction”.

            Then, “these areas are definitely private property”. This suggests there are the NFS “rules” and the private property “rules” coexisting–is that not a conflict?

            It is further complicated I think because the “Trust” I believe was created specifically to “fill in” the checkerboard sections that complicated use of the Nat’l Forest–to make the Forest effectively contiguous.

      • Makes one wonder if his use of the word trove when describing the chest within the poem could help prove its a trove outside of a sixty year timeline in the court of law? It does also stand with reason as soon as Fenn passes it becomes a trove regardless of how much time has passed because he would not be around to claim it.

        • It is very clear-cut and yet not at the same time. The actual collection is a treasure trove yes, but in order to meet the legal definition it must actually stay in the ground (currently) for 60 years. If it is found within our lifetimes it’s still going to be considered willfully abandonded property and not a treasure trove. Where it gets a bit murky is the age of the coins and art pieces themselves. Typically, if they are over 100 years old they are considered antiquities, which generally means only a licensed archeaologist can unearth it…. but context is key; FF’s treasure has been buried as part of a modern, and very public collection, so I think the finder will be fine if they are not accredited…but I can envision legislation…for we are the “Land of the Fee”.

      • Pretty timely to see this pop up again. I was hiking through some publicly owned neighborhood trails this morning wondering exactly this.

        Probability seems reasonable to me considering my read on the clues. He did say he sat by the road to consider his lot in life. S-O-C-K-S. What was considered Dreamland in the Black Forest has some great views of Pike’s Peak in some spots. “Life is a Dream” and Caulderon seems important. Detention Pond on Kettle Creek seems relevant. You can see a couple of good maps in the Black Forest Master Plan. One looks like the running man blaze. The other has some nice asterisks.

        I couldn’t do a thorough search but the area looks pretty intriguing.

      • I tried to find the ‘media’ link on this blog and can’t seem to see it. I remember there was a media event and ff stated that there would not be a problem – if you find it, it’s yours. I thought it was a web exclusive to another interview. IMO because I don’t know where the media links are but I believe there is no legal issue.

          • Just watched the FF interview. I would assume Mr. Fenn would have consulted an attorney, so he’s up on the legalities. He mentioned that if one was to find it in a Federal/National Park, that one would be required to turn it into the Park Superindendent. That is true- and it becomes the property of the Park at that point- 100%. If you find it on State land you are required to take it to the police and the same thing will happen. If you find in on public property you are also required to bring it to the police, who will then issue an declaration of unclaimed property. The owner of the property is then given anywhere from 3 months to a year (depending upon the state), to answer. If no answer occurs, it becomes an abandoned property and the finder is granted 100% ownership- and is now liable for all the taxes.

            Where it gets murky in FF’s case, is that this is already high-publicized, willfully abandoned property- so it is my opinion that there is no requirement to give to the police at all, as we already know the treasure’s status. What I do believe will happen however is that the state in which it was found, will require the finder to prove his innocence. Seems un-American, but the IRS is the only court in the US where you are guilty first, and have to prove you’re innocent. The finder will essentially need to walk the state’s officials through how he/she found it. My advice would be to document everything you’re doing on your searches- as it will all be necessary in court.

        • I would like to believe you’re right. Anyone involved in the out-of-doors, with native groups, ARPA, etc, and for as long as FF has been around, should know about property and domain rights, so my gut would tell me that the treasure has been placed on public lands- not only to insulate the finder, but to protect FF and his family as well, from any legalities. In fact, I’d be shocked at any other scenario. I still believe however, that the finder will be required to prove that he/she did indeed find it on public lands- and that will likely mean a public deciphering of the clues as well.

        • crow-
          Look on the right side of the blog, near the top..
          Click on “Most Important Info”
          You will see the “Media Coverage” on that list…click on that and it will take you to all the media stories in our archives..

      • Hi Paul! Thanks for posting this. I too have come up with similar research on this as I have been contiplating these scenarios for the last 13 months. I appreciate the info you gave but still would like to discuss further questions with you if you are willing. Any chance we could make that happen some time?

  2. You can bet your bottom dollar that, if ,and when the “trove” is found, the Feds will be all over it like bees on honey! NPS,BLM,IRS and a slew of other government agencies will pounce on the chance to stake a claim for their fair share.I say,Good luck all and have a good exit strategy in place just in case you get lucky.From what I understand,possession accounts for 9/10 of the law.Some of my research shows that individual states have significant differences in how they handle “found treasure”.Case law in a surprising number of circumstances seems to favor the finder. I guess we will only find out for sure if some “wise” soul finds it! Good luck all you seekers and be smart and safe. ps, If I get lucky, the first person I will call(after exiting the area) will be f.

  3. Mapsmith makes some good points……The problem these days is all powerful government agencies making up their own rules……If they say you don’t get it, then you don’t get it……..Case law no longer applies. Maybe you would win if you took it to the Supreme Court.

    So there’s good news and bad news…….Good news is you found a million dollar treasure……bad news is it will cost two million to keep it.

    • Fenn has already said if you get arrested I’ll come help bail you out…Don’t think he’ll have to but, never know…. I think the treasure has already been so exposed to major media… and if found the government doesn’t stand a chance in court… “we the people shall overthrow tyrannical government..” The more we publicize the less chance the government has of making up their own rules, right! They would look like total commies if they tried snatch a hard earned treasure! Like stealing candy from a baby! lol

  4. Respectfully, let us just not get the horse before the cart. I grow weary of peoples’ paranoia politic a la Fox News and the evil empire, et. al. No self respecting citizen would be required by anyone to do anything if he is wise and tarries not, going in peace with the chest. If it is I, it will be as if the wind passed by and nothing more. You dust devils are on your own.

  5. In my experience talking with officials charged with administrating various federal lands, they don’t express the same ideas that Mapsmith does. I have been told over and over again that if I find something on lands they are charged to protect
    it will not belong to me. I almost always get the feeling that they are not even particularly happy that I am looking.
    Forrest has said that there was nowhere he could hid the treasure that would not involve some potential complications. The legal questions certainly have all sorts of potential complications. Circumstances could easily come into play where the wise finder would be SOL on the entire treasure, and Forrest would not even get his bracelet back. Just Sayin’.
    Even a good lawyer could believe that he could build an airtight case for you to keep the treasure and lose in court.

    Maybe the answer is to get it into your possession and well clear of its hiding place. Then just force any folks who want to take legal action to prove where you found it. The burden of proof is on them and you have your 5th Amendment right to remain silent.
    Phillip Mason
    http://theforrestfenntreasure.com

  6. @Mr. Moose: Respectfully, aren’t you basically agreeing with the other posters…….You are going to get the chest as if breaking wind, then run and hide…..surely not from your utopian government?

  7. I believe I will just “Take the chest and go in peace”…. After sending Mr. Fenn the bracelet in a no finger print, unmarked, no return address certified mail package… Maybe even a little something for Dal too.

  8. Going in peace is certainly the way to go. Whooping & hollering , despite it not being the old west anymore, will increase your likelihood of getting robbed. I plan to be a silent ninja. The Flashlight in fact makes more sense now…. In order to go in alone, you might have to go in after hours when crowds aren’t there. ‘A flashlight’s only required if you’re searching at night’…. Hmm.
    Earned income makes most sense if he’s going with the lost and found bracelet approach : “thanks for finding my bracelet, you SE treasure hunter, here’s your 42 lb tip”.
    🙂

  9. Find the chest, take it to a bank safe deposit box (under the radar), call MGM and ask how much they would pay for the movie rights, (1 million is fine for me), Get amnesty from the Governor of Wyoming (its in Yellowstone) telling the Governor that Yellowstone will get incredible free exposure from the movie (filmed properly, it could lure many thousands to Yellowstone) in exchange for the right to keep the chest and contents tax free. Give half the treasure to charity as it will make you feel better, benefit the charity, and make for a better ending to the movie.

    • That idea is rubbish. I’m happy that we are competing to find the treasure because with ideas like that you won’t find squat.

      • Well apparently I did find a person whose leg was pulled and didnt know it. Apparently. 🙂 And I already found “squat”……so that shows how much you know.

  10. No doubt the treasure location plays a factor in the “legal opinion” of this matter.And Forrest seems to make this issue a non discussion area.Forrest’s comment about paying income tax was a basic Forrest Sidestep.He only mentioned people had to pay income tax on earned income.He certainly is not gonna show you a letter from his taxman or lawyer.A person has a legal right to give away without paying any taxes up to $5,000,000.00 and again,Forrest is not about to tell any of us how he has accounted for this obvious gift.
    He has said that if you don’t know the rules then you better stay home and play canasta.
    I know how I would handle the gift.
    Maybe ya’ll could use it to promote good works thru a ministry ?

    http://www.ulchq.com/

    The Universal Life Church has no traditional doctrine. We as an organization believe in that which is right. Each individual has the privilege and responsibility to determine what is right for themselves, as long as it does not infringe on the rights of others. We do not stand between you and your God. We are active advocates of the First Amendment of the Constitution of the United States of America.

    WE ARE ADVOCATES OF THE GOOD LIFE! We want to be competent, to be proficient, to be cooperative, to love our fellow man, to appreciate, to be humble, to be honest, to be moral, to live positively, to be what we profess.

    Universal Life Church, Headquarters
    601 Third St. Modesto, CA 95351

    http://www.ulchq.com/ordination.htm

    Welcome!
    You are about to become an ordained minister of the
    Universal Life Church, Modesto, California.

  11. Purchase and sales of investment grade coins are considered a private transaction and are not reported to the federal or state government or the IRS. Most of what is in the chest are just that, I don’t know about the jewelry.

  12. So I asked Forrest this question and received no response so I’ll ask here. Say you find it, how would you sell the “ancient” gold items, how do you tell someone how you came to possess such items? Who do you take them to, to have the items certified as “ancient”? Lots of questions to be answered.

    • I think truth proves more entertaining than fiction: “How’d you come to possess?”
      “Easy; just follow the obvious clues in this 24 line poem!”
      Otherwise: “it was a reward for a lost & found item” seems legit on all legal counts.

      As far as selling -which isnt necessarily the best investment/option/Value for some people-, I believe there’s 3 ways to attack it:
      1- Sell as an unbroken set to a dealer of antiquities or other collector or Fenn-atic, directly: someone who’ll recognize and appreciate the pieces. Someone who possibly will keep your name secret.
      2. Sell by ounce to your local coin shop. Easiest offload, best privacy, and quickest cash, but least return though. By far.
      3- auction it all as “Forrest Fenn’s treasure” as a set or aka carte: preferably through a reputable house, not eBay. Hire a lawyer, kiss privacy goodbye, and prepare to pay taxes, but the gamble is the auction pushes the 800,000 original value to the press-inflated 3 million and you still take home 7 figures.

      As far as appraisals, an art dealer or antique dealer might be a good place to start; there’s one experienced such person in Santa Fe that might be especially good at certifying the provenance, and whether it was truly Mr Fenn’s. …might only cost you a bracelet. 🙂

        • Forrest would be the first person I’d want to contact so I could return the bracelet to him, if he really did want it back. Hopefully he would have some good ideas about what to do with the rest of the treasure. I wonder if he contacted a lawyer before he hid it? Maybe that’s why the Line “I give you title to the gold” is in the poem. 🙂

          • Ahh wise words, go in peace.

            Note to self. Find chest be quiet and run like the wind. Return bracelet.

      • I always thought auction through sotheby’s, or maybe Christies. Some place with a huge list of high dollar collectors. You could probably put a reserve on it to insure you get a premium for it.

        It would be silly to not make the most of it, even if you happen to get unwanted attention from it.

      • Ok lets say the treasure is worth 3 mill alone. This chase continues to get bigger everyday there’s thousand and thousands of people that wanna get thier hand on Forrest’s chest the value only goes up everyday and forrest is also gaining more popularity everyday. There’s a lot of fennatics and I’m sure are willing to pay a good price when all said and done. If the chest is worth 3 mill I think the popularity of it knocks it up double the price. There’s only one forrest fenn treasure and I’m sure even museums would want it. I think mr fenn knows exactly what to do with it ounce the lucky person get it he probly already has buyer asking for it ounce it’s found. The only way to find out is to first find the chest

      • I would hate the spotlight but love the money it could bring. I wonder if F would give a letter of verification. I think # 1 would prove to be the most profitable.

        • Three million IS the press -inflated price, guys. The original estimate on the chest was 800K/not quite a million. It gets rounded up every year, even though the price of gold has not in fact tripled 🙂

          When daydreaming about the what ifs, I’m often torn between maximum payout vs the privacy of a smaller yet quiet sale. Thing that sways me to lean toward ‘less profit’: The reminder that there’s three things that once you lose them, they’re gone: your virginity, your integrity, and your privacy.

          • If asking Forrest isn’t an option, I’d bribe Dal to take the spot light and possibly make a movie or book series out of it…. while I walk out the back door with the non traceables. To me it’s not about the amount of money I get out of it. It would be all the life experiences I gained during the chase. Memories are something that can never be taken away… it’s up to you to remember them.

          • There are lots of undisclosed sales made through Sothebys.

            There are always ways to minimize taxes. Hasnt that last 6 years taught us all that?

            Dont sweat the small stuff, until you find the treasure. 🙂

  13. Well it’s definitely food for thought. Thanks all for the relies. Never crossed my mind to try Southebys. It’s the taxes that make it hard to go the public route.

    • The tax implications are simple to deal with.

      Simply go to your tax preparer who is registered to practice before the IRS.

      Tax preparers who have been registered the longest probably have the best grasp of the real interpretation of rules.

      Most likely the preparer is also a financial planner and discuss claiming / not claiming the treasure chest as a gift.

      I would recommend using the advice of such a preparer and if they are not already your preparer,make them your preparer.

      I see it as the chest is a gift to anonymous donee.

      It is not a contest per say as the donor has stated the only thing needed to find the chest is the poem which he also put out into the public as a gift.

      The IRS is a Fickle Beast and if you don’t know the rules then as Forrest says “stay home and play canasta”.

      http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/canasta

      ” Canasta originated in Uruguay in the late 1940s; its name (meaning “basket”) is probably a reference to the tray for holding discards. ”

      Yup,Might as well throw it away into a basket.

    • I heard Forrest say that whoever finds it can take it to him and he will help them with what they can do with it. Not sure where he said that but I think it was maybe the Collected Works interview (Oct) or the one before that.

      • He’s a very smart man and probably would help us better than anyone in order to come up with the best plan. Whether that be financial, privacy or otherwise. I’m going straight to him when I find it. 😉

  14. I’d assault the riches of the box like a thief. Champagne!
    Oooh tiny bubbles!
    A condo overlooking my dock on my ocean where I keep my small dingy!
    Jeeves my hat!
    Lolove

  15. Forrest has stated in the past that he has placed a copy of his 20,000 micro printed bio in the bronze chest. In normal printing, the bio would be less than 40 pages. Forrest has said almost nothing about the bio in his vast interviews. If a searcher found the chest would the finder be allowed to reprint and distribute the bio for monetary gain? It is a mystery to me why more information has not been provided it this area. There must be a legal caveat somewhere pertaining to its actual use.

    • Don, I never considered this to the finding of the chest and the autobiography. It’s hard for me to imagine any publisher being interested in publishing only 40 pages, except maybe as an Ebub file for those interested in f and the treasure hunt. I’m not sure what the legalities of calling it an “autobiography” are but, if the finder just used the info in it and wanted to change the wording a bit and publish it as a plain “biography”, I would think that would be legal. I could be wrong though, as I have been before, but don’t tell my spouse because I tell him I’m never wrong. 🙂

      • In the US, my understanding is that Copyright attaches to a work of authorship as soon as it’s created.
        That olivejar biography is copyright protected!!
        Unless FF has specifically waived it via Creative Commons license , OR granted a ‘non-exclusive license’, the only kind that can be made without written contract. However, you should know that a copyright owner can revoke Non exclusive license at whim.

    • Forrest has publicly commented that he has 3 unfinished books on his computer. I would be willing to bet one of those is his autobiography.

      He has recently been introducing his grandson Shiloh as being the family member who is learning the publishing end of his business.

      Both those statements were made at the last book signing at Collected Works.

  16. This may sound ridiculous, maybe even a little arrogant but.. As i did some research on the poem today i stumbled upon what I think is the entire key to unlocking the poem and locating the treasure. After a couple hours I believe i have located where the chest is, I am not arrogant enough to say its 100% because I don’t have the chest in my possession, however i plan on making a trip to the spot within a couple weeks if i can get a week off work.

    With that being said, I’m Canadian. I am not sure what kind of trouble I would have if i did find the chest, how I would get it home? Could i get it across the border without troubles? Has this subject been touched upon at all?

    Either way, I will let everyone know how the trip went with a detailed explanation on how i came to checking this spot, maybe my method will help others.

    • Just spend it all south of the border, and you’ll be fine 😉

      Seriously – if you’re bringing your own car, just stow it like Han Solo would. There’s no gold-sniffing K-9 units to my knowledge.

      So D, which of the 4 states did you choose for your solution ?

      • I have thought about that, of course if I do get pulled in and searched the border patrol would yank that trove so fast I wouldn’t know what to do.

        I do plan on visiting Mr Fenn if I do find it, maybe he will be more knowledgeable in the matter. Even if i dont find it, I might head down to his house and Thank him personally for igniting a fire in me and everyone who has gone hunting. It would be amazing to hear some stories too 🙂

        I am not giving any information out about where I plan to look, I will once i have checked the area and share what I learned. 🙂 Check back next Sunday if everything goes according to plan i will let you know everything.

    • Damian – –
      I don’t think you would have a problem taking the treasure to Canada. Years ago – (1990’s) My wife and I drove a 1963 Corvair into Canada with our parrot in a cage on her lap. I didn’t have any “papers” for the bird. The officials at the Canadian border just said “Go ahead but don’t let your bird mingle with ours.”
      When we went back to the U.S., OUR border patrol raised a huge stink, detained the bird, contacted Fish and Wildlife. Threatened jail time and a $10,000 fine. For taking OUR bird back home.
      I know times have changed, but you are not bringing anything illegal or regulated across the border.

        • OK, so document EACH ITEM in the chest, put each in it’s own ziplock bag with a serial no. Get a letter from Mr. Fenn documenting transfer of title. Take all this to the border and only declare it if you are asked specifically for that type of item. You are returning home from a vacation to the U.S. I would also carry enough U.S. cash in reserve notes to match the dollar amount stated on all the U.S. coins. I see a reason for this.
          If you have to declare the items, get each item with serial no. documented on a receipt. Eventually you will get it all back. If you pay taxes on ot, so what? You will get much more back selling each individual item than just the gold value.

    • Well, I drove 2400km’s to where i think the chest is located. It was a difficult climb, there was 1-2 feet of snow, so I couldn’t follow the path the poem laid out for me. I tried 3 different methods to get into the area without the trail but i had to abandon them all for the day. I went back out today with the idea of going into the area by going up the backside of the mountain where there was less snow. It worked pretty well, It still took a while but i did manage to get up there, only problem was at the top of the ridge was 3 feet of snow. HOWEVER, when i got to the area where i thought the blaze was i saw something amazing. The remains of a small wildfire, i believe i was still on the wrong side of what i think ‘the blaze’ is because i went up the backside, and couldn’t follow the poem. I still pushed the snow away from burned up trees that were still standing just to say i at least looked.

      As soon as the snow has disappeared i will be heading back out here. Been an incredible trip, i thought i would be disappointed if I couldn’t find it, but it is the complete opposite, I leave with optimism and the knowledge i gained by braving the cold. And the fact that i got off my ass and tried to look for it puts a smile on my face 🙂

  17. I wanted to add the following link – this is about the $10 million treasure trove just found in California.

    Quoted a 2013 tax guide in which the IRS stated: “If you find and keep property that does not belong to you that has been lost or abandoned (treasure-trove), it is taxable to you at its fair market value in the first year it is in your undisputed possession.”

    The whole article is here:
    http://blogs.marketwatch.com/themargin/2014/02/27/tax-collector-is-coming-for-greatest-buried-treasure-ever-unearthed/

    Hopefully, by giving “Title” and FF’s treasure not being “lost” nor “abandoned” this doesn’t apply. If it does, I’d give FF’s trove a fair market value of roughly $50. LOL

  18. Trove, in some cases, defines a stash of mostly coins, specifically, containing a majority of gold or silver coins, and in certain situations as defined by law, they are indeed ‘ finders keepers’: even in federal property – even inside Nat’l Parks and NFS lands.

    That said, I got some very good advice from a very good lawyer: if you find the chest, document everything – and then, this part was brilliant, he said: make sure have documentation that proves you found it where and when you did, but also prepare equal or stronger documentation that you did not find it when nor where you did, but instead found it earlier at some other place entirely, because both could be incredible useful in different court situations. 🙂

      • Oh, sorry for the miscommunication – I did not mean to imply an attorney advised me to build multiple documentations for various locations and times (and specifically, by omission (like non-GPS stamped photography), not by intentional fiction or falsification, obviously) – what actually happened , to the best of my recollection, was the attorney shared with me some scams and techniques he’d had the misfortune of overhearing about, where grifter/scammers successfully used falsified claims/fiction to get treasures/windfalls out of the hands of honest finders. I myself made the leap (as a person who sometimes gets paid to do LE-related work & collect said evidence for clients) as to what appropriate action to take in order to thwart said grifters/scammers.
        😉 all writing on this page is parody and/or for entertainment purposes only.
        😀

  19. Curious, under what conditions would providing a false find location protect you? I would think that in a court of law they would end up calling in F to testify and he would most likey be compelled to refute your false story creating a larger problem.

    It would seem that pretending to “return” the TC to F and having him actually title it over to you would be a better move. Then you make the case that you returned misplaced personal property. The way I read the laws, the “trove” term seems to pertain more to historically buried gold….greater than 50 years old. But I’m not a lawyer.

    • Trove does not require it to be buried, leastways, not in meek’s inheritance. 😉

      Lawyers thinknof things that would never occur to others: having proof of finding elsewhere than the real spot is possibly useful in tort/lawsuit situation: if someone successfully ‘proves’ to the court they had a bonafide claim on that spot (like, falsifying that they were there first, or registered a BLM gold claim, or something similar), being able to prove you DIDN’T find it there/then becomes very useful indeed.

    • FF may yet live to be 116 for all you know. In fact, I’d wager his odds are better than the average joe, (as is his luck).
      That’s 32 or so years from now, so there’s non-zero odds he could outlive several searchers.

      Besides, if legal/court Bullpucky got so convoluted that FF was pulled into court, all he’d have to do is say “ah, my chest! Thanks for finding it! I lost that around 2009/2010 and have been asking people to help me find it ever since!!” And walk away with exhibit A 🙂

    • That is morbid, and as clever as Forrest is, he may have figured a way to continue testifying right on through the doorway to eternity.

  20. I say be prepared to keep your mouth shut, or pay the taxes and risk dealing with the BLM, etc. If they don’t know where you found it-they can’t do anything. Take the chest and go in peace.

  21. Don’t care much for the legalities that may be implied surrounding the finding of the chest in any location, they are all moot…

    The wording in the poem says…”I must go and leave my trove for all to seek”…

    It is not lost, it is not abandoned, it is not buried…It was purposely placed in a secret location by Mr. Fenn specifically for someone else to find…

    The one person who can solve the poem and go get it…

    Until that occurs “my trove” indicates the chest remains the property of Mr. Fenn, no one else may lay a claim on it for that reason…

    It is truly finders keepers where ever it may lie hidden…

  22. …”You don’t have to prove anything, just keep your mouth closed,” Fenn said of the eagle feathers, according to the affidavit. Law-enforcement officers have “got to prove you obtained it illegally, and I’ve never bought or sold anything that was illegal.”

    DOCUMENT DETAILS FENN INQUIRY.

    By Tom Sharpe
    “The New Mexican”

    And I never found anything illegally.

  23. I believe ff’s decision to have a military aircraft “set down” in an unauthorized lz at the top of the waterfall speaks of his innermost feelings about government control. Following this train of thought as regards the finding of the chest, he is saying “take the chest and go in peace” or mind your “peace” and q’s. The government’s potential maneuvering for ownership of the chest is without merit and should be protested against by using surreptitious methods to conceal the discovery of said chest. King George is dead and we aint gonna give his imperial successor in the USA our stuff in this “land of the free and home of the brave”!

  24. If those involve, as well as anyone else of course, in the conversation from the nine clues section about the treasures vs trove issue I would enjoy to continue that discussion. It is going to be very interesting to see it pan out if and when they chest is found and made public.

  25. I have moved this over here at the request of Dal – now if I ever see another code/cypher comment on the nine clues I will be up in arms to move it to the fiction section – ha ha

    GG,
    I have done extensive research on this topic (common law) and I have talked to several lawyers and sheriifs on this specific matter.

    There are 4 classes of common law that deal with this matter:
    Lost, mislaid, abandoned property and treasure trove.
    One specific lawyer that I discussed with under a specific case said that he didn’t think it fell exactly under any of these main criterial becasue it was purposely hidden and intent, etc would have to be considered and thus it would have no president and a settlement between land owner and finder would likely ensue.

    With that said, I initially argued that this was a treasure trove and that FF stated as such so that law should favour the finder, however note that it is unlikely the finder can keep the trove if they trespass or break the law to find or remove it.

    When I looked at it closer, I could see that the Fenn treasure does not qualify as a treasure trove, mainly because a treasure trove has to be hidden for a specific period of time, some courts have ruled at least 12 years but others indicate 35-50 years and this is based on the main premise that the treasure needs to be hidden sufficiently long ago that the original owner can be considered dead or not discoverable. So maybe eventually it may be a trove, but not as long as Mr. Fenn is alive.

    Based on the last criteria of time, that leaves this to be most likely abandoned property. In which case, you locate the owner to confirm his intentions and then that is by defualt the true owner and that is where the treasure should go. That doesn’t mean that the land owner won’t try and lay claim to this. Many police officers are ignorant to the law and do not recognize common law and thus they will seize the property and side with the land owner of which then you would have to deal with the courts. One sheriff once told me that the best case is that they would defer to the DA for a ruling.

    I tried to use the lost wallet analogy. If I would a wallet on some ones land is it the land owners wallet? Of couse this is lost property, but I used it to make the point that just because you own the land and possesion is 9/10s of the law doesn’t mean that the other 1/10 is disregarded.

    Common sense says that the treasure should go to the original owner and they will then dictate their desires to have it back or give it away. From all of this I learned that sheriffs do not always have common sense, so be prepared to go to court unless you carefully prearrange with the owners of the land a sharing agreement .

    • Sorry to all – there were about three other follow up comments that Dal deleted from the nine clue section that belonged here and I don’t feel like retyping them.

    • Wolf,

      When it come to private property the law is very clear. The property owner gains custody. This has some leeway to such as; another’s property left that is uncontrollable. example; a vehicle that was left on the property is still titled to the owner of the vehicle and doesn’t be come the property of the land owner, with other factors involved.

      The use of the word trove in the poem represent, Not only of value, but not having ownership to… unlike the word treasure is possession to one and only has value to that one.

      I believe fenn did the best under the circumstance to use this term trove as passing on ownership. “so hear me all and listen good” represent in part a last will and testament. “Your effort { the challenge the Author present } will { passing on ownership, Normally a pond death… but also takes it out of remaining families possession} .. I give title { ownership…} to the gold { the chest and condense}

      In an article Fenn was asked about private land to public land. His response was { paraphrasing } He was not concerned about that… and it would be fun to see how it unfolds }.

      • Dal was kind enough to send me my original comment as follows:

        Excellent germanguy,

        The use of treasure is possession important to on. The word possession enacts ownership, as well as the possessions only valuable to that owner. Think alone the lines as a youth whom places his favorite Baseball cards in an old cigar box.

        The use of the words trove is shown of having value, but no ownership. In the case of trove the finder claims ownership. There are some case laws to this affect.

        But alas the laws have changed / added / and challenged through-out the years, as well as, Land rights of the public as whole. It would still be an interesting development to see what becomes of the trove when found.

        But I’ll ask this question; does the use of the the word Treasure[s] , in the poem, actually pertain to the chest only?

        • I think Forrest has many treasure’s in his hidden box, that mean a great deal to him. There for you may be right to mutable meanings to treasure’s . But I read it as what he placed there for someone to find. Just my thought.This is a very interesting topic. Seeings how, I never would even think of coming to the point of understanding the poem let alone the end of one finding it. I better learn to think ahead more. Good stuff Ty

      • Actually Seeker you would be surprised that to know that if you can link the find to common law then its finders keepers (that is layman’s term for common law). What you sited was exactly what the sheriff believed because they don’t know how and when to apply common law. There are very few of these cases out there as a president, so the property owner confusion often arises.

        The problem with application of treasure trove – it applies for older finds and is meant to be the rule when certain type of valuables are found and the owner is either dead or believed not to be alive.

        • Treasure trove vs Abandoned property:

          The following are some notes that I have captured over time doing my research.

          Treasure trove has the thought of antiquity: A find of money must have been concealed
          so long that it is unlikely that the true owner will re-appear before a court will
          consider it treasure trove. This language originated in a 1956 Oregon case where the
          money had been concealed for less than a year. The courts have not enunciated a
          bright line rule as to how many years will allow a find to be considered treasure
          trove. The consensus appears to be several decades, perhaps three or more. A 2001
          case decided that eleven years was too little time for a find to be considered treasure
          trove;27 a 1995 case considered that thirty-five years might be sufficient;28 a 1991
          case stated that fifty-nine years might be sufficient.29 Thus a coin hoard is treated as
          treasure trove if it is old enough; otherwise, it is treated as lost, abandoned, or mislaid.

          • Wolf,

            Agree, not only with your assessments but your information as well.

            This falls in line with germanguys original comment about Treasure vs. trove use of words. Not remembering what was exactly stated, but the reason trove is being used in stanza 5 rather than the use of treasure. And i believe in part, the reason fenn used each word in each place of the poem is for what has been stated so far.

            Which raise the question, Is “treasure[s]” having anything to do with “trove” or is treasures representing something different than tangible items?

          • Seeker,
            After all my research into trove vs abandoned property, I really only discovered one small difference with respect to ownership and it didn’t matter in this case.

            That difference is trove goes to finder and abandoned property goes to original owner (Fenn) and since original owner says finder can have it – then the end result is the same.

    • I forgot to add to my above post that finding the trove illegally by trespassing and or removing it, even though you are legally on the land could be considered illegal, even if you give it to Mr. Fenn. I thought this might be the safer way to do things but then it became blatantly clear the law says you can’t remove property that is not yours from land that is not yours. The proper procedure is to give it to authorities/ land owner and then go from there. Maybe this is why Mr. Fenn feels that he would know.

      Of couse if you don’t follow the law, and just take it, the value of the trove will be significanlty less because you will have to go to the black market to unload it. If you plan to take it and give it to Mr. Fenn, and he then tells everyone where he hid it, and it was discovered that you removed it illegally then you could very well be in trouble. In the end, all of this was not worth the risk to me and doing everything legally was what I decided from all of this research.
      The Wolf

      • I read some where that it is the finders obligation to turn it in. So I believe your spot on on this one wolf. Even if its on land that is owned by someone else I know I don’t own any land. so chances are you will have some connection to it in the end. After all you will be the Finder of Fenn’s trove. Who’s going to discredit you for that. The Indians will love you for your gift. The state will love you for their gift and the people will hate you for ending a wonderful thing. There must be a happy medium in there some where. It might be better to go in piece but I would just do it legal therefore the end would manifest its self. I didn’t have much to start with so whats the difference. Maybe they will put a knew attraction where ever it is hidden who knows a knew zip line so people can say weee. Or if its in a place they need to clean up or repair from Fenn’s youth to make it a better place who knows . I hope we all find out the information when and if the story ever unfolds.That’s something worth living for. I side with legal.

        • Jeff, I am not a lawyer (but I got myself off of some speeding tickets) however I did consult a few lawyers and some law enforcement folks and I described my elaborate plan in my book (thank you Jeff for your purchase and supporting cancer research by the way).

          That is why my plan on recovery had to be what it was. I put a tremendous amount of “what if research into that search and in the end I thought I had a very good plan that I felt I would have prevailed in the end.

    • http://www.earthmagazine.org/article/trail-treasure-rocky-mountains

      It appears Ranger Tim Reid has finally come to his senses and now admits if you find it in a national park (while not breaking park rules) it is abandoned property, finally he understands my “lost wallet analogy.”

      “Treasure hunting is not illegal in Yellowstone, but there’s a whole host of regulations that govern the preservation and use of national parks,” says Tim Reid, chief ranger at Yellowstone. “Metal detectors are illegal, digging is illegal, and you can’t remove any natural or cultural feature from the park.” If somebody were to find the Fenn treasure within the boundaries of Yellowstone, or any national park, it would be considered abandoned property, Reid says. “It’s not ‘finders, keepers.’ You would have to turn it in and go through a governmental procedure to lay claim to it.”

      As far as BLM lands go there is a little more common sense:

      One of the main legal distinctions hinges on whether the chest is buried; Fenn has hinted that it’s not. “On BLM land in New Mexico, as long as it’s not buried, if somebody found the chest, they would be permitted to take it,” says Allison Sandoval, a BLM representative in Santa Fe.

      Thus in summary, BML and National Parks are in play as long as it isn’t buried. Finally some people are starting to understand Common Law!

        • Dal makes a good point in the article…

          “but as Neitzel points out, Fenn hid the treasure without anybody seeing him do it, so somebody should be able to get the chest without getting caught by authorities. “The poem says ‘take the chest and go in peace,’ which may imply that a searcher shouldn’t make a fuss about where it was found,” Mason says.”

          “Forrest has said that there was nowhere he could have hid the treasure that would not involve some potential complications,” Mason says. “Maybe the answer is to take it clear of its hiding place and keep quiet about it.”

          http://www.earthmagazine.org/article/trail-treasure-rocky-mountains

          • I agree keep quiet about it…….I wouldn’t have a problem keeping quiet. I would tell my wife but she can keep a secret, especially if I tell her how much we would owe in taxes if anyone found out about it.

            Telling my kids would be the same thing as putting it on the front page of the Dallas Morning News. 🙂

            There’s so many people out having fun looking for the treasure it would be ashamed to spoil their fun……And I would think the longer it takes to find the treasure the more it would appreciate.

            If Fenn put some sort of incentive in the chest to tell him when it was found that would change the calculation. But it would have to be a very large incentive to persuade me to come forward.

  26. 42,
    If the treasure was placed on FF’s personal property or a trusted relation. then that would be the simplest.  Your second assumption has issues.  At first glance (it tis the peoples property) federal property makes sense but this is why I think it could be a very bad idea. First, because it is the people’s property public opinion will weigh in to the law. Yah that is right if the public says give it to them you are fine, but if they turn against you, your screwed.  I look at it as a foreigner finding it and they pay no tax would the people like that or would they fight that because an American citizen would have to pay tax.

    Next, the feds are slow and they have lots of money to waste on principle, so if they press your pockets are not deep enough even if you are likely to win.

    Case for private ownership land:  They don’t have deep pockets and don’t want to go to court anymore than you do. They are easier to deal with and consider the negative fallback that effect their reputation and or economic viability.  Just imagine if poor single mom Mary and her little special needs child find the treasure and the business owner tries to take it from them, their media would destroy that business in a heart beat.

    In the end, I actually think that making a deal with the land owner would be the simplest.

    I believe the best case scenario (form my research) is that an unincorporated town or municipality do not have any claim at all and would be the best case scenario.

    The Wolf

    • I also noticed that in some instances: land owner and use of land and which category of common law this falls under (if you can make that case successfully) also have stipulations on whether it was buried or hidden.  Buried is much more complicated and works against you because you would be breaking the law just to find it by performing an illegal act, despite whether you plan on leaving it there or contact the owner after you found it.
      The Wolf

      • that is a very good point wolf. Private property can bring in more headaches than the public land issue IMO.

        If to think how fenn may have thought… two things come to mind. Public land, for the fact it’s own by the people. This would interesting to Fenn as to see what the outcome would be. Fenn’s private land or affiliated in some way as to have interest in the land. All other private land IMO is off limits. And I believe he knows it and respects it as well.

    • Dal, asked to move this here for those that care about legal aspects not for those who don’t.

      The reason one might care is that if you wait to know and try and understand this stuff after you find it, you risk loosing it because of actions that were illegal in the process of finding it.

      How would you feel if you unknowingly trespassed, illegally disturbed soil to find the trove or some other act you thought was legal, only to loose it in court due to ignorance of the law.

      There have been several people charged already just for looking, the wise and knowledgable searcher will not only find it but will keep it.

      • Wolf, here is a question maybe you can answer or maybe someone else can. I have thought about this because he says he thought of everything so land ownership of the hiding place may be an important clue. What about the legalities of hiding or removing it from land owned by a non-profit corporation that is designated for public use? I am thinking of perhaps a park, garden, or museum grounds (that sort of thing) that is open for public use, but owned and controlled by a non-profit corporation. There would be no trespassing issue, no private owner claim issues, and no state or fed ownership. Any ideas on this?

        • Jack,
          That is an excellent question. I am not a lawyer so I can only give an opinion. IMO, the situation and circumstances will always dictate thus there is never an easy answer. Thus NPO will have different circumstances depending on the many variables. In general, again the land owner has rights and under the common law, the finder has certain rights. If you are not trespassing and find a treasure in a park then I believe ownership is in your favour. If you dig in a park (not the intended use of the park) you may be in trouble for conducting illegal activity to get that treasure and thus that could be deemed trespassing. Each NPO will react differently so you have to understand what is their policies and intentions.

          Again, consult a lawyer or two and trust me you may have to ask many to get the answer since almost all lawyers are unfamiliar with common law since it is rarely applicable. Universities are probably a better source since they teach this stuff that is never used – lol
          The Wolf

          • Thanks Wolf, I was thinking along the same lines but have tried researching this question and haven’t been able to find an adequate answer. But I keep thinking that if he thought of everything, then that type of hiding place is a good possibility. Also a logical extension of that might be that it is not buried for the reasons you pointed out.

            Maybe if found there, a generous donation to the NPO would avoid any legal drama. 🙂

  27. In cases of trespass, there are some defenses available to the defendant to justify the trespass. However, ignorance or mistake of law or fact is not an excuse for trespass[i].

    One of the defenses is the title and possession of the property[ii]. To invoke this defense, the person must have the actual ownership of property along with the title. The person in actual possession has the right to maintain an action for trespass against all persons other than the original owner[iii]. Thus, a trespass is privileged if the defendant is a bonafide purchaser, and has an ownership claim over the property.

    – See more at: http://trespass.uslegal.com/defenses/#sthash.pYn9r22P.dpuf

  28. I’d like to share with you something I have been working on for a while. I often pondered Fenn’s use of the word trove in the poem. One definition for ‘trove’ is a treasure (which I know is quite obvious), However, why would Fenn use it in the poem?

    What I propose, is that he used to word to define exactly what his treasure was. When I say this, I base it on the legal definition of “Treasure Trove”. Since it states “trove” in the poem, there should be no question what the chest represents. At least IMO.

    If you do a search of this definition as used in Common Law, it turns out that it goes back to English Law, which was the basis for the origins of our current system.

    Today, “Treasure Trove” is recognized when found as property of the finder. Many states recognize this in their laws on “Treasure Troves”. Don’t confuse this with “Lost Property”.

    I tried to be as focused as possible in reading the various state laws in uncovering this, so if someone has a better understanding, by all means correct me.

    The following is an excerpt from Wikipedia:

    A majority of state courts, including those of Arkansas, Connecticut, Delaware, Georgia, Indiana, Iowa, Maine, Maryland, New York, Ohio, Oregon and Wisconsin, have ruled that the finder of treasure trove is entitled to it. The theory is that the English monarch’s claim to treasure trove was based on a statutory enactment which replaced the finder’s original right. When this statute was not re-enacted in the United States after its independence, the right to treasure trove reverted to the finder.

    Notice that the above states mentioned, are only a few of the ones that recognize this law.

    I raised this issue, because in the past people were commenting on Federal, State and local laws on finding the chest. A search of the laws in the states where one would be looking for the chest may answer the question of ownership. I hope this helps.

  29. Forrest likes to use different spellings and definitions of words. And he likes to make up his own words. Trove could mean and sound like “Trophy”. There could be a landmark or formation that looks like a trophy cup and Forrest is referring to it in his directions to the chest.

    Also, trove could be a shortened version of turtledove, which is shown in one of his drawings in TTOTC.

    My point is, we shouldn’t get too hung up on the word “trove”, as it might or might not mean what we think.

  30. I have the answer for how to get around the IRS and taxes!!!!! Wait til the IRS is abolished by us voters!!!! HAHAHA SOOOO SIMPLE!

    • Wow, Ed. That would be a HUGE bonus to the finder if Forrest would/could do that. I wonder if that legislation passed after Forrest hid the treasure (in New Mexico…IMO). If I understand that correctly that makes a total of 10 million that can be handed over in estate and gifts completely tax free. That’s incredible. You mean congress did something right and just for a change? Allowing people to keep what belongs to them and then give it to whomever they please without the government taking nearly half of it? What a concept! There’s a slight fragrance of liberty in there. Can you smell that, too? 🙂

      Oh, and Merry Christmas to All!

  31. In his book, “Too Far To Walk”, ff places a treasure map to go along with his poem. On the back of this map is a declaratory statement of the “Chase”, to wit, ‘i hid it, i dare you to find it, if you can find it, you can have it’, signed Forrest Fenn. IMO, he has done this to give (legal) title to the chest and it’s contents. Looking at it this way keeps me from fretting over such matters. 🙂

  32. I have to agree….. it’s a contest NOT a lost treasure from old times. The finder will have to pay taxes on the winnings if you go public. Otherwise who’s gonna know?

  33. “When you open that lid for the first time, its gonna be the most wonderful thing that you ever saw”…I would love to live that moment.A part of me wants to plunder that chest badly, and a part of me doesnt.Id hate to ruin everyones fun.If it just contained gold nuggets id have no problem, but im not sure if id be worthy enough to possess ancient artifact gold.So if i find it first i may just take a couple gold nuggets and replace those with a gold braclet with my name etched in it.When its then refound ppl will be asking, well who the hell is that guy? At that point ppl may want to know a little something about the guy who didnt bother to take such an opulent cache and may give my own book sales some propulsion…I wonder if Mr.Fenn would frown on that thought?

    • …I am taking along an inexpensive metal chest, to leave behind in place of Indulgence, when & if I ever find the box

    • I really like that idea find the treasure write a book about it with photographs but leave the treasure hidden in the spot.

  34. Goofy \ Dal

    I would like to hear either one of you guys ideas. If either of you find the treasure, what will you do? Legally speaking?

    • Close earth I believe in being prepared as much as possible; but to me your question is impossible to answer until after the chest is found because there are so many variables. So I concentrate on finding it first and will worry about what to do with it afterwards.

      I do take a small backpack with me when I’m searching to carry the chest after I find it. 🙂 My wife and I were visiting Texas a couple years ago. My son in law had a 40 lb. barbell sitting in the back yard. One of those solid ones; not the kind you can add or remove weights. It was about 5 inches wide and a foot tall and obviously made to carry (it’s a barbell). I grabbed it and took off walking. I’m in pretty good shape for an old guy but that thing got very cumbersome very quickly, and I was on flat ground.

      I would at least send proof to Dal it had been found, even if I had to do it anonymously. What happens after that will just depend on all the variables one would need to consider.

        • specialklr, just set up an anonymous email account, there are many out there. After that be sure to connect from a publicly accessible internet connection, preferably out of the area you live. You can use a VPS service but the service still knows who you are. If you’re really paranoid use an old laptop with a generic name, send the files and trash the laptop. It all depends on how anonymous you want to be.

          If you’re a nerd and want to bump the curbs a little you can get into the linux world of the dark web, generally you would need a full shell account for that…….but you don’t need any directions if you know about that, if you don’t know about it, you should stay away.

          • Hi, Goofy. You mentioned using linux…but could I just use unix instead. Unix has worked so well for others…in high-stress, action-packed environments. I’m just asking because I KNOW Unix …by some really weird fluke …that’s almost “unbelievable”. 🙂

            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=URVS4H7vrdU

            On the other hand, I know absolutely nothing about eunuchs systems.

          • Okay…blue light touching the computer….now not touching the computer…Doh!…it’s touching the computer again…okay, NOT touching the computer…

            Wow! Great directing! Way to go, Spielberg! 🙂

          • Really??? I love that movie it has been a while since I have watched it. Are they not coming out with a new one soon??? I thought I saw that somewhere…

  35. Have you ever asked yourself “why” ff has really left the chest? Why he has said he “thought of everything”? Then IMHO… If he has done both, he really isn’t concerned that the government will get it no matter how they try. He wouldn’t chance that. So there is only one way, if you find the chest, that you can have no worries about keeping it. Have you figured it out? I think I have. It’s not as simple as the term ” I give you title to the gold!” It’s other. Without a dought in my mind he has no question as to how the “finder” will maintain the “possession”…. Ever… Under any circumstance.

    Famous quote from Fenn… ” think about that! ! ”

    Really. Ponder on that a while.

  36. How about the finder setting up a private meeting with Forest, with video and lawyer present. Returning the chest to Forest, having Forest transfer title to you in the most tax neutral method and then slipping back into anonomous profile. Forest supplies the lawyer and one copy of the video tape in exchange for the bracelet.

    • So along that train of thought, would title need to be exchanged at sea in international waters? Not sure that would relieve anyone of any tax implications, but worth exploring. I believe that is how ships are turned over to foreign owners, but then the owner in that case is a foreign entity.

  37. It is likely the chest and it’s contents fall into the ” historical resource ” category -in regards to legality..ownership of property reverts 100 % to fed/state/indian lands it is found on. Technically..it is considered ‘ abandoned’. If it is on ” Private Land ” ownership could be argued on grounds that the trespass to retrieve it was ” TRIVIAL” viz…….QUICKLY LOOK DOWN…TARRY SCANT “. Enjoy the poem.

    • 🙂 Bruce

      Here’s a link that i found interesting

      http://www.muenzgeschichte.ch/downloads/laws-usa.pdf

      It talk’s about court cases & results.
      I don’t know that it is useful, but does describe many things & even includes a 9 at the END.
      Page 15 Lost Property 2 types, 1 Embedded 1 TT

      🙂 The GOLF C&CS
      🙂 Treasure Trove definition & Thought of Antiquity #2/9
      🙂 Disclaimer not actual statute documents

  38. Just read through this thread and most of the things I have wondered about seem to be answered here concerning what to do after finding the chest.

    A question I’ve wondered about, but not see others talk about much is simply keeping mum on it all? Pick it up and go in peace. Simply don’t tell anyone where you picked it up or that you are the person that found it. Contact Forrest and return the bracelet at a drop spot and go about your business.

    After a while – 5 or so years – in your posession, any burden of proof that it belonged to anyone else goes on them, wouldn’t it? If the various govenment agencies never knew you had it, or that it was you that did have it, what can they do?

    If you want notoriety and/or compensation for your efforts/cleverness, then you’re going to pay a higher price than the person that keeps quiet about the whole affair. Then at the end of your life simply will it to your family to keep the chase alive.

    Perhaps I am naive on such matters – rest assured if I find it I will be talking to numerous lawyers for advice to secure the cache, and to rewrite my will. I think most of us fall into this group.

    • swwot – I don’t think the statute of limitations would begin until the injured party (the IRS) was aware that you’d found the chest and not paid your taxes. So if you did sit on it for a while, but ultimately disclosed it, the penalties and interest on top of your taxes may exhaust the entire pot. Unless you’re confident that you (and your descendants, I think) could keep your mouth shut forever, that sounds like a bad strategy to me.

      I think the finder will have other avenues available to him/her to cover the tax burden. If he or she is smart enough to solve this riddle, they ought to be smart enough to figure out other ways to profit from it – if they are so inclined.

      • Spoon,

        Thanx for your input, and like I said earlier, I’m a novice when it comes to financial dealings concerning vast wealth, so I am very open to advice.

        But if there is no “paper trail” because no money ever exchanged hands, what can the feds do? It seems to me that the onus would be on them to prove that it wasn’t a gift given to me at no cost. Once I had secured the contents of the chest and the chest itself, wouldn’t they have to be able to name and identify the contents before laying claim to it? If no one but Forrest and I knew what I have, how could they do that?

        Additionally, how would they ever know where Forrest was storing my gift if neither of us ever divulges where we agreed to transfer it? Again, I’m wanting to know what all my options are and what’s the best way with dealing with these things, so I am open to suggestions and recommendations.

        I would think being coy about the whole affair plays into your favor better than disclosing things outright as soon as the chest is recovered. That’s my opinion for right now, but I could be swayed otherwise with a reasonable argument.

        Now, this whole discussion is putting the cart before the horse in a sense, because I haven’t found the treasure yet and to the best of my knowledge, no one else has either. But it does do us all a favor to be thinking ahead of time about our “end game” if we are skilled enough to be the one to pick up Indulgence in the wood. I think this is a good spot to quote the Boy Scout motto: “Be prepared.”

  39. I tend to think differently. At one point in time my inspiration came from strictly a monetary perspective. Now I tend to think of it as a trip to the grocery store. You stroll through the aisles searching for the things along the way that pleases your eye. At checkout you pull out your wallet and pay for the goods. The tax burdens and fees are all added in. And when you get home you know you have enough to feed everybody because that’s who you went shopping for. It would have been nice if the grocery store had put all my goodies into an LLC which you could have purchased at a small price tax free and then delivered. But then you would have missed the best part of the shopping trip, the journey and the people along the way. I know my way sounds simple, but sometimes that’s the best way to share a thought. And besides if the store had delivered there would be no story to share at the dinner table which is really the best part of the feast.
    In my very simple opinion.

    • Sounds good. I thought it was about the adventure first and the loot second. What difference does it make to worry about the loot until the adventure is completed. It does not really matter to me – I will pay the taxes or return the chest–according to my tax advisor.

    • Maybe since he gives the portion of proceeds to coll works/cancer it the whole thing including the chest is somehow a charity tax write off where the chest is like a donated prize for the money that’s raised for the cause. The raised money in that case I believe it tax free and possible donated it’s are too? I have no idea but I can find a way it would make sense my head as they would have collected more that it’s value in cash through book proceeds anyhow but who knows. I’m not an accountant or a charity

      • That’s what I was wondering Jamie, if you give the chest back to Forrest or donate it to a museum of his choice would you still have to pay taxes?

        Lol, thinking out loud here but just imagine if you donated it and got to deduct that from your taxes for the year under charitable contributions… Might get an audit flag for that one… 🙂

        • I don’t know. But If I have some fancy car I think I can donate it tom”charity” as and use it as a tax write off. I imagine a chest would be the same. Once I donate that car and they, say, have a raffle and sell 50,000 tickets I don’t think St. Jude’s or Us that raised the 50,000 pay anytaxes on anything. I’m not sure that “you” who won the car has to pay taxes on it either as the title would be signed over for $1 or whatever anyhow and may be “double taxation” if I’d paid hen I first got it. I don’t know. I also wonder from the big “investigation” I know there’s Indian artifacts that one can’t “buy or sell” I have a taxidermied tiger head like this. It’s legal to have because the mount is way older that when they were endangered….but I can’t sell it. Maybe some of the chest stuff is like that? I don’t care at all either way I just like thinking about random stuff but real intriguing.

        • Either way your getting an audit flag unless your yearly income is already in the gazillions and you contributed to both political parties. Maybe this is why Mr. Fenn has made this so difficult to protect us from such agencies.

          • How can they audit it? There’s no paper trail or transfer of money? Until you sell it it’s a gift. And don’t get me going on “troves” haha because everything I’m reading says have to be abandoned for several decades with no next of kin to be found. And no I’m not “challenging” you at all! I really want to know too and have no idea but I don’t get how anyone can talk about taxes like they do. I could buy a babe Ruth baseball card and twenty years later it’s worth a mil…but nobody can “audit” me for it can they? I think only if I sell it for cash…and personally anyone who sells it in my mind is nuts. Heck, you lose money just pulling it outta the ground–you have a thriving business with a strong foundation and a huge following of which fenn has already globally advertised. Running that for even just another year would FAR exceed and chest proceed sales if think. Who knows, but I think it’s gotta be worth 2-3 times minimum as a business than as sold art/memoriabillia.

  40. One way to solve both the ownership and tax problems is to switch the real treasure with a stand-in or proxy treasure.

    The proxy would consist of a cheap, same-size, plastic box (or the original chest) filled with cheap plastic coins, junk jewlery, etc. Most important, it would contain instructions on how to turn in the proxy and collect the real treasure as a reward for finding the proxy. It should also contain a certified inventory of the real treasure. The “proxy treasure” strategy should be managed by a trust with a well know financial institution (Wells Fargo, Bank of America, Lloyds of London, etc.). The trust will act on Forrest’s behalf while he is still alive and after he has passed on. The trust will have possession of the real treasure, be responsible for having it’s value assessed, will verify the authenticity of the proxy when found, and verify the location where found, etc.

    The ownereship problem is solved because the value of the proxy would be minimal, I’m guessing less than $100, unless the original chest is used. If someone or some enty (e.g., a government) can legitimately claim the proxy treasure, no problemos, “Fine, here it is, its yours”!

    The tax problem is solved because the giver of a gift (the reward), Fenn in this case, pays the taxes which, by the way, makes him a great hero all over again!

    The “proxy treasure” has other benefits too:

    The hunt becomes a little harder since a metal detector wouldn’t help.

    The finder gets a nice bound volume of Fenn’s autobiography with the real treasure instead of one rolled up in a jar.

    Fenn gets his bracelet back.

    The “proxy treasure” will generate a lot of publicity, renewed interest in the treasure, reinvigotrate existing hunters, and bring new ones on board. The hunt is back in the national spotlight!

    If the proxy is announced detractors will immediately claim a fraud, that the treasure was never out there, that its value is being reduced, that the hunt is being called off, “what will he pull next”, etc. Fenn lets that stew for a few months, he lays low and says nothing. Then in an interview he urges believers to continue their efforts, point out that no one is being forced to hunt for it, and by the way, who would be so stupid to search for a treasure they didn’t believe in. After that stews for a few months, the trustee publicly verifies the proxy switch, that they have the real treasure, that all is above board, and explains the benefits and praises Fenn’s cleverness and generousity. The trustee then dramatically opens the real treasure on prime time tv and dumps it out!

    The only potential problem in the switch is if Fenn is not physically able to do it. Maybe two afternoons and 4 trips would be required. Maybe an ATV or helicopter would help. Maybe he would have to relie on another person, one he wouldn’t have to murder afterwards! Maybe the trustee could do the switch.

    I proposed all this to Fenn. He said “no.”

    • Dennis-
      This idea has been proposed a couple of times before. Forrest said “no” then too. In my mind it is not a possibility because of the idea that Forrest has said it may take a hundred or even a thousand years for the chest to be found. As you’ve pointed out, who knows what remnants of civilization and a legal system will be around then..???
      I agree with your summary…I don’t think it could possibly involve any “proxy switch” and is clearly not a possibility within any framework that I can imagine over a thousand years.

      • Dal,

        Don’t forget that a “trust” would be handling the whole thing, so time (100 years, 1000 years) is not an issue. I wonder how Forrest plans to “pass the torch” after his demise.

        Dennis

  41. Good ponderings by Wolf and Seeker. To summarize common law, found property is one of these 5 types :
    Lost property, Abandoned property, mislaid property, treasure trove, or embedded property. If you think Fenn is not only a generous but a KIND soul, as I do, you should hope the chest is lying where it can be picked up without disturbing the property around it. If it is buried, or “embedded” in the soil, current law dictates that you must turn the chest over to the property owner. It is generally considered part of the soil and part of the property. But current law also assumes the item is “lost” because it is buried, but we know this is not the case. So Fenn challenges current law. He suggests to me in the poem that he wants it to become “treasure trove” but this may take at least 50 years or so.

    To simplify the concepts, I think of the treasure as a wallet with a few gold coins in it and a note that says the finder may keep it. It is not “lost” because we know Fenn knows where it is. It IS “abandoned property” because Fenn has indicated he wishes to terminate ownership to the finder. But realize that it remains his property at this time. He is the original owner who can easily be traced. It is not yet “treasure trove” because current law applies this to very old items and generally assumes they must be “lost” to the original owner. The items are all very old excepting the biography and possibly the sealed jar it is contained in, but the treasure has been placed recently. Similar treasure that was found only 35 years from placement have been disqualified as “treasure trove”. Using the wallet example, “mislaid property” would be like Mr. Fenn leaving the wallet next to a cash register in a restaurant. It may have been deliberately placed there at the time, but he left it there either intentionally or (probably) not. In this case it does NOT belong to the finder, or the restaurant owner. It is still the original owner’s property and rightfully should be returned to him. But the note in the wallet says “just keep it”. So the finder could do that in this case. The concept of “imbedded property” has not been well covered here. In an Idaho case, a contractor and employee was digging out a driveway on the owner’s property and uncovered a glass jar containing many gold coins. “Finder’s keepers, loser’s weepers” you say? No way. The court ruled that the jar was embedded in the soil and therefore just like the soil, belonged to the property owner. But in this case the original owner was not traceable and the jar was assumed lost over time to the original owner by death.

    Fenn challenges current law regarding found treasure by the unique circumstances under which it was hidden. If he is thinking long term, 50, 100 or 1000 years, laws may have changed very much by then. But if the record is preserved regarding Fenn’s intentions that the finder may keep all or part of the treasure as he is able, then maybe the treasure will not be considered lost and untraceable and his intentions will come to pass.

    • Interesting discussion piratejim although I think your analysis ignores a few things as does the earlier posts on this topic. Common law can be instructive but only in the absence of statutes and regulation that codify the relevant law. Most states and the federal government have code sections and regulations that apply to lost, abandoned, or misplaced property and even to “troves”. Which law applies will depend on where the property is found, when it is found, and by whom it was found. It makes a difference as to whether the location is private, private property open to the public, or governmental (state, local, fed, tribal and all the subdivisions thereof). It also makes a difference as to what type of property is involved (coins vs. vehicles vs. artifacts for example). Who finds the item (owner of the land it was found vs. an employee? Trespasser or invitee? Does the person know who the property belongs to? My concern is that folks are tossing out statements like “common law applies to this…” without specifying the details of the scenario that they think their rules apply to and without any reference to the many laws and regs that are on the books. Lawyers can expend lots of time and money arguing the finer points of all of these issues and I doubt that a rock solid single answer is readily available until we can identify where, when, and how the chest is located. In my view, this is all restless speculation and I would take a lot of the advice that is thrown around with a grain of salt. I for one, will worry about all these issues when I find it.

      • I agree, Raven. I did not begin to address the finer points you have brought up. Illegal activity such as trespassing private land and digging where not allowed will usually void any claim the finder may have. Additionally, the finder must follow laws which stipulate announcing the discovery and turning it over to the land owner of private land. Most searchers believe that they can secrete the treasure away,telling no one about it. This too, can void any rightful claim to the treasure. The purpose of current law is to determine which party or parties have a legitimate claim to the treasure. As you point out, a lessee has a limited claim on the property and an employee who finds valuables while going about his/her business has no claim at all. And if the chest lies long enough to become “treasure trove”, it then may also qualify as an artifact falling under the so called Equities Act. Cannot be legally removed if on certain lands but can only be removed from certain other land under certain conditions.

        I too used to think of this as “putting the cart before the horse”. I had that attitude for years but now I have considered this issue as I try to determine how Mr. Fenn thinks, hoping to narrow down the type of areas it may be hidden in and how he may have thought to hide it.

        To JL – I do have a certain familiarity with legal issues. If Mr. Fenn left papers stating how he would like to see the treasure disbursed ( “reduced to possession”), this direction would be interpreted only under the applicable laws and regulations in effect at the time it is found. As two extreme examples : If it is illegal for citizens to own gold at that time, the finder could probably not possess it unless there are exceptions to the law that qualify him/her to keep it. In a second example, say that Mr. Fenn has had his living family agree to not pursue any claim on the treasure when found, and a document in the chest states that he wants the finder to have it. That would not stop any family member that has not agreed to pursue ownership ( say an as yet unborn descendant ), as they could possibly wage a claim on the treasure as a direct descendant next in line for part of his estate.

        Keep in mind that Mr. Fenn has relinquished CONTROL of his treasure but NOT possession. That bracelet that he wants back is his and he could lay claim to it as the original owner at any time.

      • ” I for one, will worry about all these issues when I find it.”-Raven

        I have heard that comment before and the research I have conducted would indicate that it may be too late in some situations if you wait until you find it. ie. under some conditions and depending on the State, trespassing could be an issue. I discussed this at large in my book as well and had to devise a plan based on consulting lawyers as to how I find the treasure. Waiting to figure out what to do may cost one the treasure if one violates (knowingly or unknowingly) the law. Something to think about.
        The Wolf

        • Wolf, thanks for the advice–I will take it under advisement. I wonder however if thinking too much about these issues runs the risk of creating problems that weren’t there in the first place. My advice is to take FF at his word– “..imagination is more important than knowlege”. In my opinion, that quote directs us that the path to solving this mystery will be found primarily with the right side of our brains (creative and imaginative side). Heavy loads of irrelevant facts and legal minutia dancing around in our left brains can drown out the fancy pants “thinking” that will really get us the prize– of course that is merely my opinion.

          • Raven I hope you are correct about a right side of brain solution because my left side is a bit danaged
            Re spam. Unsubscribe as much as possible and it stops some of them. It is so easy to not uncheck boxes when buying online and then spam. Goofy I agree spam is a big pain but telephone spam has me never answering my phone if I don’t know who is calling.

  42. piratejim,
    You sound as if you might have a legal background. My question to you or anyone who knows the answer is: If FF left a will inside the chest stating that who ever found it would be the inheritor after his passing would that be an option? I think Mr. Fenn probably has put inside the chest instructions on how to secure it since he said he thought of everything. IMO
    jl

  43. New here but been lurking a while. I wonder if you could just mail it in full or in part to yourself? Then if anyone asked you could just say you had no idea who it came from. It was just an anonymous gift.

    spritc.

  44. This “all” is very interesting but the original questions out there still.
    Has the “T.C.” been found that anyone knows about or are we waiting for Fennbore Fun to tell everyone then or afterward. I’m only here because a guy asked Dal that question and Dal told him on the Fennbore blog this was the time or place to move that over to “Legal Ponderings”?

    • Tim: from what I can see, there is no reason what so ever to believe that the chest has been found. Anguishing about it is a waste of time in my view. The choice is to either pursue finding it, or don’t. I think some people would like others to think it has been found to cull the number of searchers or to help their egos to feel grand by garnering attention or by leading others to believe “they solved” it. Its a performance that has been played multiple times in the past and probably will continue to be played in the future. My plan is ignore that noise unless FF says the party is over or until the fat lady sings–that would be me, when I find that beautiful treasure.

      • Raven, finding the treasure would immediately transform you from a fat lady to a Raven beauty.

        I too think the treasure is still out there. The legal considerations I talked about are not all encompassing but have a direct bearing on the type of area in which it is concealed, and how it is concealed (the WHERE and HOW of the puzzle), all IMHO.

  45. Why would anyone possibly state exactly WHERE they found it? That’s opening yourself up for potential problems. My pre-rehearsed answer to ANYONE is…”It was right where Forrest said it was”. I’m not required by anything to tell where I found it.

  46. What I’ve found regarding “treasure trove” laws indicates that these statutes likely wouldn’t apply to this find, because by the generally accepted definition, a treasure trove is a cache whose owner is unknown or likely deceased. It would be easy to identify the owner of this chest if found.

    And, as one of markrdreyer’s partners in his quest, I agree – if we find it, we will pick it up, leave the area, and say very little about it. Questions will be referred to our attorney.

  47. So I spoke with a tax attorney today, in regards to the Fenn treasure. She told me that any found items have to be declared on a year end tax form. The items/box must be appraised and taxes paid on the appraised value. She also told me that if someone were to sell any of the items that person would have to pay the difference from what was appraised. I asked about giving the treasure back to the hider and having it gifted to the finder….no such luck, she said the IRS would consider that fraud. Looks like either MUMS the word or fame.

  48. What I don’t understand is how you could be guilty & then prove your innocent?
    Why is it you would have to tell anyone where you found it?
    The government will get there taxes & that’s all they should get.
    I just can’t see the government & the states all sending you subpoenas not knowing where you actually found it. But I do not know the law of the land when it comes to this.

    • Yep,
      It’s starting to look like the effort may not be worth the cold. So the judge asks you where you found it, you say on federal land. Now you just admitted to stealing from the feds. Do not pass go do not collect 200 bucks. Where’s the get out of jail free card? It is a predicament, If you plead the fifth, they assume you most likely found it on fed land, same scenario. IMO
      jl

    • Jake, I appreciate you moving this conversation over to the correct page.
      To answer your questions (all are my opinion); you asked:

      What I don’t understand is how you could be guilty & then prove your innocent?
      Standard operating procedure for the IRS; guilty until proven innocent. I won’t get into the constitutionality of that.

      Why is it you would have to tell anyone where you found it?
      The government could “compel” (as they call it) you to prove you own it. Ownership could depend on where you found it.

      The government will get there taxes & that’s all they should get.
      Do ya think……..there’s taxes, and more taxes, and then more taxes. But if you want the government to actually do something you will have to pay a “fee” (just more taxes).

      I just can’t see the government & the states all sending you subpoenas not knowing where you actually found it. But I do not know the law of the land when it comes to this.
      I answered this one above.

      As far as worrying about all of this I think it’s a useless waste of time; because there are too many variables we don’t know. So I’ll use the few brain cells I have finding the chest, then decide what to do……..If one finds the chest and finds out it’s just too much trouble; I suppose you could always put it back (after taking lots of pictures). 🙂

      • Thanks Goofy,
        Yea, I will not waste too much time on this subject & if lightning strikes twice in the same place then I will deal with a lawyer who will end up with most of the money anyway.
        Did you say put it back?
        You definitely need brain cell replenishment.

        • Now wait a minute Jake; give that some thought. Get lots of pictures; some taken with a recent newspaper/magazine to prove time frame. Give Fenn back his bracelet; and he will acknowledge you found it.

          You could make millions off the book with all the great pictures. Then the hint book, then the more hints book, the movie, the motivational speaking circuit, the publicity would be worth more than the chest.

          • Smart thinking Goof. I had a friend who was a professional motivational speaker and claimed tens of thousands of dollars worth of “business expenses” on parking meter fees and a couple of thousand more in food for his cockatoos’ birdseed who he claimed was his office security. They took him to court. He won. Then he wrote a book called “How I beat the government out of $100,000 in taxes”. Made money on top of money…

          • Yes Goofy,
            You could make allot more money than the chest is worth after you find it but I am not sure I would want the celebrityism, the phony cash flow of speaking to a large crowd of people would be easy for me as it is for Hillary, talking about how they can be just as successful as me if you just talk allot of crap. I know, some of them say if my speech has a positive effect on just one attendee out of say 500 people, it was successful.
            I believe there is at least a couple of colleges where the students want there money back.
            Now, I would take allot of HD video & some pics as well, but the books & owning the movie rights would be OK with me as long as the script was not too cheesy.
            BTW, Your persona & Dal as well will be in the movie & was wondering who you guys would want to play you?
            Nevermind.

  49. Hello JohnCena. My best suggestion would be to ask a lawyer in regards to the questions you may have. Sometimes you may find one that will answer for free. I’m not a lawyer, so my answers may be totally incorrect. My personal thoughts would be that everything is legal. I truly believe Mr. Fenn wouldn’t have placed anything illegal in the chest. I’m sorry I couldn’t be more helpful.

    • If one digs up enough info about the chest and Fenn they will know that most likely there is nothing illegal in the chest. Before indulgence was hidden it was seen by investigators of the FBI and BLM. If there was anything illegal in it, it would of been confiscated then. If my memory is correct this happened in 09. But there is always that item in the chest that Fenn will not talk about and is ment for the finder. If that item is not being talked about the FBI and BLM may of never seen it. Some speculate the item is a deed to the land the chest sits on to some unique discovery Fenn found in San Lazro that could change the archaeological world.

  50. Havent been able to play with ttotc for a bit. But my brain chews on fun possibilities….what if the chest was on private land and inside the chest was a deed to that land. I assume that has already been thought of. Could that even work out legally?

    • Bee – – you didn’t own the land when you trespassed on it to get the chest. So the previous owner could contest the legality of your ownership. If it is f, no problem. If f has passed on, someone else will own it and could challenge your right to any possession of land and chest.

      Just take the chest and go in peace.

      Regarding above 2016 discussion about announcing publicly that you found it but not saying “where” : How will you answer all the litigants coming out of the woodwork to claim that you found it on THEIR property – – they knew it was there, they found it in f’s spot and put it there, etc. Or you found it because they helped you. You will get to spend all your remaining years in court and a pretty dollar to defend all the lawsuits.

      Just take the chest and go in peace.

  51. I will contact this guy and see what he has to say regarding any legal issues, something I’ve been thinking about doing for some time any ways and he would be a good contact to know for marketing the find. He is handling the most recent find of the couple who found 1,400 gold coins valued at 10 million. I’m curious if has even heard about the chase.

    http://www.sfgate.com/news/article/Auction-day-for-coins-found-in-Sierra-Nevada-5505729.php

    http://kagins.com/california-man-unearths-giant-gold-nugget-may-be-largest-in-private-hands-in-california/

    Kagin’s, Inc.
    1550G Tiburon Boulevard #201
    Tiburon, CA 94920
    415-435-2601
    info@kagins.com
    http://www.kagins.com

    • Okay, I just spoke with Kagin, caught him at the office even though not open. There is no legal issue with possessing old gold coins, period. Has to do with collectibles and Nixon changing some laws in the 70’s. He did mention that Ideally if found on your own private land for sure would be best for ownership claims and if no one else can step up and claim. He had not heard about our TC! So surprising how few have heard, better odds for us! Anyhow, keep on searching, IMO.

  52. Dal, just wondering how my recent post today isn’t on this blog? I could have sworn I posted it but then again my memory seems a bit off these days. What may be another possibility, a glitch on your site?

  53. Wonder if all questions of full ownership and not having to worry about paying taxes would be resolved if the finder merely returned the TC to Forrest. He could then write that person into his will for the TC’s possession. Obviously, this would have to be done before Forrest passes.

    • I thought about that some time ago, KevinP, I mean, what can anyone do to you if you know who the chest belongs to, and you simply return it to the owner. You can’t be charged with anything, because no law has been broken. And, if Fenn wants to will the chest to you, he can, it’s his property, but you will probably owe in the neighborhood of about 40% in federal income taxes on what it is worth, but good news, you’ll also be able to keep the other 60% of what it is valued at. IMHO

      • Would tax be due on the entire amount? I thought there was a rather substantial amount which is exempt before any tax liability is imposed.

        • You might be talking about that $15,000 dollars a year that you are able to receive as a gift from someone without paying taxes on it. IMHO

    • SL, Thanks for that link. It refers to antiquities, and while some items in the chest are definitely antiquities, they are not antiquities that are from the area you found it (Roman, Incan, etc. are far away). So yet another possibly ambiguous situation subject to interpretation by the gumment.

  54. OK, so I picked a spot; then I discover it’s in a National Forest, but on non-Forest-Service-owned property–owned by a trust of some sort–and I’m thinking that completely busts my solve….private property=it’s theirs…best as I can tell.

    THEN I discover that the trust belongs to a gazzillionaire philanthropist and art collector who almost certainly knows Forrest (sorry, I would rather not specify the connection). It occurs to me that perhaps Forrest realizes public lands are problematic, and his friends or “the trust” could quit-claim the treasure with some paperwork in the chest. They are, like I said, well into 9 figures so a piddly 6 figures are moot.

    Now having said that, I DO believe Forrest’s spot was NOT selected because of these things…..that may have just been serendipitous. The owner could do that and still have no idea where on over 10 square miles of property it might be.

    So I will still go to my spot if it is not posted.

  55. What if the chest is a mirror/copy of the real chest and you must take it to Forrest or his heirs to exchange for the real one ? Why? Because then the state or government can’t ever lay clam on it. Yes you will still pay taxes but no one can can clam you found it (the real chest) on state or government land. The fake chest would be of no value to them.

    • Lisa,
      You will need to study up to know he really hid it.
      Take some time to watch his videos here & YouTube.
      Read the statements.
      Please don’t hand the chest to anyone that doesn’t understand.

      “I said on the Today show that the treasure is not associated with any structure. Some people say I have a desire to mislead. That is not true. There are no notes to be found or safety deposit boxes to be searched. The clues can lead you to the treasure, and it will be there waiting when you arrive.”
      http://dalneitzel.com/2013/04/17/2071/

      “When you find the treasure please come sell me the great turquoise and silver bracelet that is in the chest. I wish now that I had kept it. f”
      http://dalneitzel.com/2012/10/02/forrest-gets-mail/

  56. the first thing take it to the Ranger ,or police then they can verify it’s not real . Then follow instructions as to how to exchange for the real one. No government
    problems . I hope that’s what Forrest did.

  57. So much ado about the legalities of ownership !!?? I’m wondering why ANYONE would do anything but contact FF to do 2 things 1) Return the bracelet, and 2) To seek advice on the sale of the pre-Columbian artifacts. The vast majority of the treasure is in Gold coins and Gold nuggets. Both of which have Huge collector markets and allows for private transactions. With that being said …. why would anyone even be willing to pay exorbitant taxes on the find, if the vast majority of treasure can be sold off privately and under the radar. Yes you would have to figure a way to account for all the extra cash. A bank safety deposit box works for me. Stealth, Secrecy, and Discretion should be the only avenue pursued by the finder of FF’s treasure chest.

  58. I would take the chest back to Fenn for his advise. He has had it the longest and certainly has used it before to fund some of his activities. I would follow his sage advise on this matter. My intentions would be different from many as I am ‘generally lucky’ with my current situation, so would rather use it to help out others. In my past, I had someone help me when I was facing tough times and would like to “pay it forward” so to speak… similar to the Secret Santa donations the salvation army receives around Christmas or even more recently in Salem, Oregon with Hundred dollar bills being mysteriously found by individuals.

    Sorry for rambling on…oh the possibilities.

  59. Step #1 – Find it.
    Step#2 – Contact Forrest
    Step #3 – Deliver the bracelet to Forrest
    Step #4 – Talk to Forrest and/or his lawyers
    Step $5 – Determine risks of divulging where it was found.
    Step #6 – Contact Southeby’s if appropriate.
    Step #7 – Sell TC if appropriate
    Step #8 – Pay Bills/motgage
    Step #9 – Help family and friends
    Step #10 – Set up foundation to help others with remaining funds

    Subject steps subject to change and new information is added.

    Just a few thoughts

    JD

    • Hi Jd, hope your search goes well this weekend. Like your list it seems very logical and well thought out. I really didn’t know you were so close and heading out soon. I sure you dont believe me but MSN broadcasts got me thinking about your past conversations and your searches outside YNP. Please let us know how it went.

      • Thanks for your well wishes – see #5 above. IF,
        and that is a B I G I F I do find it, I will talk with Forrest, and together we will decide when and where an appropriate time will be to announce to the world that “The Chase is Over”. There will be a LOT to consider.

        IF I do find it, I would not expect any earth-shattering news Monday…but only time will tell.

        JD

        • Agree with you on most items JD, but still think if I find it, I will leave my state quarter in a small container and leave it for someone else to find and set up a trash email to give solve privately only if people want it. Would love for this to keep going of I weren’t the first there just for the chase.

  60. on bended knee is no way to be free
    lifting up an empty cup, I ask silently
    that all my destinations will accept the one that’s me
    so I can breathe

    – Eddie Vedder

  61. There is an interview with Forrest by CBS’s Barry Petersen in which Forrest responds directly to the question of legal issues in owning the chest once you find it. It sounds like Forrest considered that issue. Just my own interpretation of what he’s saying but it sounds to me like Forrest doesn’t feel there will be a legal issue. What do you think?
    If that were true, where could he possibly have hidden it (aside from property he owns) where ownership would not be an issue?
    The interview can be found on the Media Coverage page…a few down from the top of the list…
    The media coverage page is here:
    http://dalneitzel.com/2013/03/17/media-coverage/

    • Thanks for the post Dal – Interesting interview. Forrest lets the interviewer get away with saying the treasure chest is buried, and he slipped up and said Yosimite, but a darn good interview – Thanks

      JD

    • Dal et All,

      http://www.fs.usda.gov/Internet/FSE_DOCUMENTS/stelprdb5261774.pdf

      2724.4 – Cultural Resource and Treasure Trove Uses

      This category includes inventory, excavation, or removal of archaeological resources and treasure troves.

      The Antiquities Act of June 8, 1906 (16 U.S.C. 431) authorizes most of the existing cultural resource special use permits issued prior to 1979 and all cultural and historic resources less than 100 years of age. The Archeological Resources Protection Act of 1979 (16 U.S.C. 470aa) authorizes all new permits involving land-disturbing cultural resource activity involving resources 100 years old and greater. The Act of June 4, 1897 (16 U.S.C. 551) authorizes nondisturbing activity and permits for treasure troves.

      Allow qualified institutions and individuals to observe, excavate, or remove archaeological resources on National Forest System lands when in the public interest and within the constraints of the various laws and regulations governing the management of archaeological and other natural resources.

      For treasure troves, allow persons to search for buried treasure on National Forest System lands, but protect the rights of the public regarding ownership of or claims on any recovered property.

      Follow the basic policy for cultural resource activity on National Forest System land in
      FSM 2360 and additional coordinating requirements for historic preservation in 36 CFR 800.

      ——————————————————————————————-

      I believe this Forest Service Manual (FSM) excerpt legally states that searching for “treasure troves” on NFS land is authorized, but protects the rights of the public regarding legal ownership, which we all know that Forrest has given “title” to the finder.

      LitterateOne

      • All,

        What one must also consider is that there are “places” within National Forests that could be considered “no place for the meek”

        LitterateOne

    • Like Forrest said;

      “If you can find it you can have it.”

      “If there is a legal issue.”

      I believe he is just giving a person, the finder a gift. They may owe a gift tax on it’s value. But it is still a gift from Forrest to the finder, no matter how long it takes to find the treasure.

      There may be a formality to go thru after it’s found, but it’s still just a gift from one person to another.

      Or like the poem says….

      Just take the chest and go in peace.

      I give you title to the gold.

  62. I have never posted at CC but I was reading a post this morning titled “Could the chest be on property he owns” and it came up that he could not own property without it being in the Public Records and I felt compelled for some reason to comment. So I registered at CC but apparently I have to wait to get approved so I just figured I would post my thoughts on this here instead.

    I am not an expert on this but when my solve took me to Private Property I thought I would research it and from what I understand it is not that hard to set up a Land Trust and keep the owner of the property a secret, there are also many other benefits and options when doing this. People have been doing it for years, especially companies that are trying to acquire a bunch of property for an end use that they want to keep secret or private, for example:

    Privacy of Affairs:

    Since only the trustee (or the trust name) appears on title, the beneficiary remains private. This level of privacy offers numerous advantages including the ability to conduct business without making your affairs known to the world. Walt Disney used land trusts when buying up tracts of land in order to build Walt Disney World. If people knew that Walt Disney was buying up land, then prices would have certainly skyrocketed.

    Other benefits are Ease of Transfer:

    The interests in a land trust are considered personal property, not real property. As such, a transfer of an interest in a trust can be done effortlessly with an “Assignment of Beneficial Interest.” There is also no need for a notary, witness, or any type of public recording.

    Search Land Trust and you can see all the benefits and how easy it is to set up. It also has many options on who the beneficiary can be and when the beneficiary can get it:

    Contingent Beneficiary

    n. a person or entity named to receive a gift under the terms of a will, trust or insurance policy, who will only receive that gift if a certain event occurs or a certain set of circumstances happen. Examples: surviving another beneficiary, still being married to the same spouse, having completed college, or being certified as having shaken his/her drug habit.

    It is also possible for the beneficiary to be unborn children, so this implies the beneficiary does not necessarily have to be named. There are rules against perpetuity but they vary by state and “The rule is notoriously difficult to properly apply, as pointed out by a 1961 decision of the Supreme Court of California which held that it was not legal malpractice for an attorney to draft a will that inadvertently violated the rule against perpetuities. Therefore, in the United States it has been abolished by statute in Alaska, Idaho, New Jersey, Pennsylvania, Kentucky, and South Dakota. The Uniform Statutory Rule Against Perpetuities validates non-vested interests that would otherwise be void as violating the common law rule if that interest actually vests within 90 years of its creation; it has been enacted in 29 states (Alabama, Alaska, Arizona, Arkansas, California, Colorado, Connecticut, Florida, Georgia, Hawaii, Indiana, Kansas, Massachusetts, Minnesota, Montana, Nebraska, Nevada, New Jersey, New Mexico, North Carolina, North Dakota, Oregon, South Carolina, South Dakota, Tennessee, Utah, Virginia, Washington, West Virginia), the District of Columbia, and the U.S. Virgin Islands, and is currently under consideration in New York. Other jurisdictions apply the “wait and see” or “cy-près doctrine” that validates contingent remainders and executory interests that would be void under the traditional rule in certain circumstances.”

    On last thing: “In trust law, a beneficiary is referred to as cestui que use or cestui que trust, that is the person or persons who are entitled to the benefit of any trust arrangement.”

    I have wondered if Cestui Que Use or Cestui Que Trust and Your Quest to Cease are related if I hear and listen good lol, kind of like Butterfly is Flutterby, just a thought. Obviously I have no idea if it is on private property owned by Forrest or not but I can say that if it is it would not have to be in the Public Records.

    Another thought about perpetuity and 1000 or 10000 years from now, there is no guarantee that a National Park like Yellowstone will still be a National Park in 1000 years, you would think so but 1000 years is a long time and there is even talk now about privatizing National Parks, in 1000 years Yellowstone might be owned and controlled by Trump Properties and just be one big Casino and Country Club…

    m

    • Hi Mark, Can you explain your comment “…but I can say that if it is it would not have to be in the Public Records.” Specifically, why would that be true?

      • Hi LMN,

        I am pretty sure I am just repeating what I said above but like I said above if you search Land Trust and what they are used for you will see, that is the main point of a Land Trust to keep your name as the property owner out of Public Records. See above or search about Disney buying up property in Orlando before they wanted anybody to know they were buying up property in Orlando.

        And the property owner can name the Trust anything they want, like “John Smith Property Trust”, and if your real name is Forrest Fenn or Walt Disney it won’t show up anywhere in the Public Records. Lots of huge companies handle this and they have a legal obligation to keep the property owner’s real name a secret and out of Public Records, like this company below:

        Why Select Indiana Land Trust Company?

        We are owned by Fidelity National Financial, a Fortune 500 company. Our dedicated trust professionals are committed to developing long-standing relationships with our customers to ensure sound planning. We want to help you protect your property and its future distribution to your heirs in a responsible, organized and uncomplicated manner.

        • Thanks, Mark. I am smacking myself upside the head. Ofcourse that is true. I read your comment to say there was a way to keep the “trust” out of the public record. Yet, using a fictitious name accomplishes the same thing. believe it or not I am not a “blonde”.

          • Hi LMN,

            I was pretty sure I understood what you meant which is why I included the “John Smith” thing. Like I said I am not a legal expert I just researched all these possibilities when a solve led me to Private Property. I suppose if a Property Owner was to get a company like Fidelity National Financial, a Fortune 500 company to handle the Land Trust, they would have to know something about who the actual Property Owner was, but they are under legal obligation to keep that information secret and I am sure they would, otherwise they could make a lot of money off of knowing that Walt Disney was secretly buying up Orlando to build Disney World and that would probably be more valuable than Forrest’s treasure, but they nor any other Land Trust legal organization I have researched has ever broke that legal agreement so if I or Forrest or Disney were to go this route I think it would be safe to assume they would keep things a secret.

            And Forrest could have set this up 15 years before the poem was even finalized or published, he knew the spot when he started crafting this poem, and he could have also included a dozen other properties he owns just to keep things non-specific and confusing so low level employees at Fidelity National Financial wouldn’t have a clue about the actual treasure location or even ever get the connection 15 years later when he released the poem and the book.

            And on another note, some of the smartest people I have ever know were “blondes”, smarter than this brunette or some of the red heads I know or most of the grays that are hunting for this treasure lol…

          • Mark, Did you just happen to mention Fidelity or did they somehow intersect with your solve? Really curious about that and happy to take the conversation private if that is preferred. On a lighter note, I am a “gray” and I married a highly intelligent blonde (purely a stereotype joke)…after all she married me 27 years ago.

          • Fidelity means nothing to me other than the example of a big Fortune 500 company that handles these type of things. Honestly if I thought I knew anything specific about what Forrest might have done I wouldn’t say anything about it private or public.

            And I am 54 years old and everyday I see a few new grays, I have been with my wife for 38 years in November and she has always been and is still blonde because she goes to this place once a month that magically keeps her hair blonde, I am OK with the gray, I am just happy to still have hair regardless of the color…

          • Mark,
            In a land trust, two parties are needed. The trust and trustee. While Disney use land trust to keep thing on the low so price of land wouldn’t skyrocket. In this case [ the chase ] someone would know something. Then again, two can keep a secret if one is dead. I have often wondered if Olga had more property fenn may have been interested in… other than the adjacent property left to fenn for spreading the ashes.

        • Hi Seeker,

          My only point was it is possible to own property and keep it a secret, out of the Public Records. Disney is an extreme example, then again Fenn would be now too.

          From what I understand the “Trustee” would be Fenn and he could keep that a secret as “John Smith” or “Whatever”, the 3rd party that would know would be Fidelity National in my example above. The beneficiary would be the finder and that is very flexible:

          “Beneficiary is a person or entity named to receive a gift under the terms of a will, trust or insurance policy, who will only receive that gift if a certain event occurs or a certain set of circumstances happen. Examples: surviving another beneficiary, still being married to the same spouse, having completed college, or being certified as having shaken his/her drug habit.

          It is also possible for the beneficiary to be unborn children, so this implies the beneficiary does not necessarily have to be named.”

          I just researched all this because a solve of mine took me to Private Property. Had Forrest said it is NOT on Private Property I would not have even considered this possibility, but he has not. I try not to prejudice my thoughts based on what makes sense or does not make sense to me and instead “decipher” the poem and if that ends up being on an Indian Reservation or a National Park or BLM or Private Property I look into it, and when a solve of mine was Private Property this is what I found. But in fairness prejudice told me if it is Private Property he owns it, that might not be the case but that is what I thought would make more sense than a strangers property, but then again that is an assumption also… DO NOT TOUCH or Please Touch, We Are Responsible lol…

  63. Fenn used the word “lease” in a posting at MW:

    “Helen, I get no satisfaction from writing as if my thoughts were formulated. If you don’t understand my meaning, I hope you would at lease understand my intent. Sometimes, in the still of myself, my nuances do not evoke the presence of an author, but of a scribbler. Sorry for the confusion. f”

    Ignoring context and overlooking a probable misspelling, focusing only on the word “lease”, if he’s leasing an area (private) and has invested into this lease for decades, does this overcome any questions of finder ownership if it is hidden on leased land?

  64. I was told this might be a better place for this post:

    I hate to dirty the treasure with cheap talk of money and “disposing” of something made sacred by the dedication, hopes, and dreams of so many searches, but I still would like others’ thoughts on this matter.

    I’ve been trying to imagine what I’d do if I found the treasure. (not what I’d buy with the money, mind you–but what to do with the gold, etc.)

    I personally would be concerned about government intervention and heavy taxes (as well as getting ripped off by collectors). I would probably keep the location a secret and hide a “dummy” chest back in that spot for future searchers to know they found the spot. Hoping that Forrest is still alive, I’d return the necklace to him, but would hate to draw a lot of attention to myself and so would ask to remain anonymous.

    But how do you liquidate it into usable cash, short of holding an auction? Would you discretely sell a nugget here or there for cash? Could you avoid the fate of other famed treasure finders who either had it confiscated or had to pay hefty taxes?

    Would you submit it to be displayed somewhere as the famous “Fenn Treasure” and maybe earn money off people coming to view it?

    I’m sure some collector would pay a premium for the entire collection together–more than you’d get if you sold it piece by piece.

    Also, what would you personally keep, rather than sell? I personally am fond of the chest and would probably keep it and a few favorite souvenirs inside.

    I hate to admit it, but fear of theft and taxes and the uncertainty of what to do with it might cause me to hold the entire trove secret for years.

    I guess, someone needs to find it for any of this to be important, but as he/she will certainly face these decisions, I thought it could be a helpful discussion for the benefit of the lucky finder, whoever it might be.

    • And my response to someone on a different thread accusing me of trying to avoid taxes:

      I’m not adverse to paying taxes, just want to make informed decisions as anyone should. I’ve just read stories about treasure finders that make you think twice about finding treasure. Also, anyone that has/gets serious money ought to be concerned with “estate planning” or you end up giving it all away in legal battles, taxes, probate, etc.” No need to be hostile or unfriendly and jump all over me.

      So to restate the question, do you:

      Keep it all to yourself?
      Sell it, or portions of it?
      Auction it?
      Display it?
      Donate to a museum or charity?

      And anyway, how do you find/approach buyers? How do you protect against fraud, theft, con-artists, and dishonest dealers?

      I think these are legitimate questions.

      • They are legit questions when found Ryan.
        Some of your questions can be answered here but you may not like some of the answers as I do not.

        I thought about these questions early in the chase & decided not to put the cart before the horse although if you are sure you will find it you may want to do some research to keep it without loosing too much but either way you will be famous if you like.
        I prefer to go in peace.

  65. Maybe this will have no effect on where you find the treasure but I would have to say the government is beginning to see our POV.

    Who’s land is it anyway?
    It’s ours. We pay for it. OK, maybe we should give it back to the natives.
    I’m all for that.
    I commend those that have the ability to stand up to our government as I have done & will do again.

    http://www.opb.org/news/series/burns-oregon-standoff-bundy-militia-news-updates/ammon-bundy-verdict-oregon-standoff-malheur-court/

      • It has nothing to do with those EC Waters,
        It all has to do what is right & what is wrong.

        I’m sure you know the differences between common law & statutes.
        One is to protect.

        The other is to serve the pockets of the machine.
        Laws were once made for a victim involved & now they are made to make you a victim & pay to keep the machine oiled.

        Don’t forget to buckle your seat belt 😉
        I’m glad the people of the jury put the hammer down & hope the sheeple don’t seep back in.

        • @Jake – of the peeps, for the peeps, by the peeps. Happy for the Bundys, happy for you. Not so thrilled for the public servants just doing their jobs, like you and I try to do our jobs.

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