Where Warm Waters Halt…Part One


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This is for a discussion about Where Warm Waters Halt. We’ve all got ideas that didn’t work out or we are willing to share…I think we can give folks just starting out some ideas for the kinds of places that might just be the place Where Warm Waters Halt…or not!

Let the discussion begin…


924 thoughts on “Where Warm Waters Halt…Part One

  1. What warm waters are there? Yellowstone has hot geysers, Thermopolis has hot springs, but what else could be considered warm waters? This clue has had me very puzzled.

    • I know what you mean Marilyn. Forrest himself said that WWWH is the hardest part of the poem to figure out.

      I hope there will be a variety of ideas below and some of them might trigger your own creative juices….

      • I posted somewhere below about a “warm water” that I regret investigating. While in the area I checked out my second interpretation. Valles Caldera is a dormant super volcano. If you take “water” as a metaphor, then the lava flow could easily be WWWH. I need to return to this area to further investigate, so I don’t want to give away anything further. On the other hand, I would like to see someone solve this so I can rest.

        Take it for what you will and use it as you see fit.


    • I have a very good wwwh that I believe many people have. It has never been mentioned on any blogs but it is so good that it cannot be denied. The thing about temperature, as is true with time, it is all relative. Meaning, 50 degree water is warm as compared to 35 degree water. I have said many times that this water is warm when plodding through 2 feet of water because at other times in the year it is 20 degrees cooler. So, my point is warm water may not necessarily be a warm or a hot spring.

      • Underdog- if you’re referring to the one in MT, I’ll see you there this summer 🙂 !

        • Does the poem only work seasonally or should the water always be warm? The only thing I see that can relate to season is if it’s warm in the cold.

          • I tend to believe it is. Look how difficult it is to travel say in colorado in the winter time. ask yourselves:

            ” Would an eighty year old man risk unpredictable weather

            I think not.

          • Studying the poem I have observed that it is multi faceted. The elements that I have seen lean toward late spring, summer and before the first freeze. So thinking in terms of 3 seasons may be a good course to follow.

      • If you look up warm waters in the dictionary it states that warm waters is any water that is not frozen.

        • In my dictionary, FWIW, it says ‘warm’ means “suggesting warmth, having yellow, red or orange hues ”

          – And That phrasing IS something an art gallery owner would use.

        • The dictionary definition I read of “warm water” is – any ocean or sea, not in the Arctic or Antarctic”. That would lead to “halt” being a boundary. Since we can rule out Antarctic, perhaps the Arctic boundary – and Northern limit of the Rocky Mountains”?

          • David, thanks for that info. I agree totally with websters definition. Any water that is not frozen is considered warm waters. That makes the starting point in the snow cap mountains IMO.

      • In my book, Warm H2O is any temperature above freezing and below boiling. On the other hand, I’m not convinced we are talking about H2O in the poem.


        • Scott, definition of warm is all over the board. If flywater, its one def. If polluted waters another, but in the end I believe you are correct – It’s any temp above freezing and below boiling. Metaphorically, warm waters may be tears which dry to salt on cheeks and will end in heaven (metaphorically speaking).

          Also, Mapsmiths def. directly above is one I’ve applied given ff’s background in art.

          • Nor,
            Have you ever considered that relatively speaking, all water is warm? If not, it would no longer be referred to as warm water, but ice. I think when everyone comes to that conclusion, they then can focus on “halt”, which really is the key to that line. But again, this is just my opinion.

          • Sorry, I saw Scott’s reply before I responded. However, given warm water is defined, the true question that remains is what the meaning of “halt” is.

          • Why are you still up GG? I agree all water is warm if not frozen or boiling=hot.
            Halt is more easily defined, just not easily nailed down to specific place. I keep coming back to my original solve which is straight forward and all fits. Just couldn’t nail down the final spot. btw, i’m under the covers like a kid reading comic books with a flash lite. lol Need to get some rest or will be a train wreck tomorrow.

          • Nor , if your solve is centered on MT / YNP, we might be barking up the same trees then. Already crossed a few off in those areas!

            and if you’re no longer out in the wood hunting, feel free to email me at effectivedetective@ Hotmail

          • German Guy – Relatively speaking, warm stops at absolute zero (kelvin), which is negative 270 C. However, if we are speaking relatively or metaphorically, I prefer my post here about the lava flow at Valles Caldera.

          • Scott,

            To be perfectly honest, I fell the “warm” issue is a waste of time. I find that determining why there is a “halt” involved, is the more important aspect of the line. I think that you’ll find there to be more “warms”, than “halts”. IMO

    • I would like to think because Forrest loves fishing and loves fly fishing that warm waters plural could be designated fishing waters in new mexico where u need a special license to fish if u fish in other waters. warm waters halt at a bridge in Taos where there is a posted sign saying these are special waters where u need a special license for fly fishing just a thought since its close to taos where he has property also goes to Pinar which is kind of a forest has a box canyon u go down to and is rapid and high water now find the blaze >>>>>> what could that be???

  2. My first guess for WWWH was on the Rio Grande. The lifestream of New Mexico and Pueblo country.

    I was reading a non-fiction piece by the famous novelist Tony Hillerman, who was himself a New Mexican and a friend of Forrest’s. Hillerman was discussing fishing on the Rio Grande and he pointed out that at just about the Colorado/New Mexico border the Rio Grande does a dramatic change of character.

    Right at that spot it changes from a placid, warm water stream collecting runoff from millions of acres of ranch land to a thrashing torrent of ice cold water that becomes one of the finest trout fisheries in the state. So it occurred to me that this spot might very well be Forrest’s WWWH.

    Below this place is the “gorge” an eight hundred foot deep and narrow canyon with the Rio Grand ripping thru at the bottom. A place for white water rafters and for trout fishers willing to make the climb down in there.

    This seemed to tie into Forrest’s fishing interest. His history and prehistory interests and his desire to get us off the couch and walking the countryside.

    The rim of the gorge is at about 7,000 feet. Cold water springs gush into the river at many points along this remarkable canyon and at this point it is clearly in the mountains north of Santa Fe.

    It looked good to me…

    I first went there in May of 2011. I followed that river thru the canyon down a good 12 miles, which certainly seemed too far to walk. But I could drive it along the rim. I matched up most of the rest of the poem there too…
    The only thing really missing, was the chest…

    Oh…and common sense on my behalf. Had I thought about it I doubt that Forrest ever would have climbed down into that gorge with 21lbs…twice…

    I scoured that canyon for three days with nothing less to show for it than an appreciation of a marvelous canyon and some wonderful memories….

    Here is a pic of the gorge:

    And here is one of the early posts I wrote on this blog about that trip…

    • Just think….this could of been the trip that ol’ Dal got the first two clues correct but went completely past the other 7……

      • djj-
        For the record, Forrest has never said to me that I had any clues correct. I am stumbling around as much as everyone else. I like to think I’m getting closer but that will probably change at the end of the summer when I have not found it and have to move on to better theories.

        • Dal, I took a different view. I’m of the belief that WWWH is a metaphor. I will know in a couple of weeks. You’ll get pics and my reason for my solve. See you in Wyoming!!

          • djj-
            I believe I am finished with the gorge. Maybe I’ll try there again in twenty years if no one has found it…

        • why would you look in the gorge when there is no forest u dont need a flash light and its a difficult climb for an 80 year old?

          • Marshall-
            I think you should be careful about second guessing a location if you have not been there to look.
            There are many trees in the bottom of the gorge. Also caves along it’s walls and rock piles that would take a lifetime to completely search. Difficult to descend for an older person but not impossible. While I was there I watched a couple much older than Forrest on their way down. But they were not carrying a heavy load…

  3. my first theory on WWH was where the uncompaghre river stops below brown mountain

    uncompaghre is UTE and literally means where the water hits the red rocks, i found references online claiming the meaning can translate to warm waters

    also the uncompaghre NF boundary runs right through that mountain so a secondary meaning of uncompaghre coming to a halt here can be taken

    • On one of my searches i stopped by the Ute Indian Interpretation Center which sits beside the Uncompaghre river In Montrose CO and asked the person at the center what Uncompaghre means. She told me it means “Where warm waters flows.” She was obviously of indian descent and since she was working at that interpretive center I presume she was of Ute ancestory and therefore believe she knew what she was talking about.

  4. This will be interesting . Because it is where u Begin. Of course I cannot share where warm waters halt . I have done lots of research and thinking. Lots of time has gone into my Thrill of a chase. Although sometime In June I will then share where warm waters halt. It’s been my journey and my adventure since march of 2013. I believe it will or should be figured out soon. I met Forrest back in October 2013 and showed him my ideas he was such a nice man, I can assure u that he will not let u know if u are close are not until the chest of gold is in your hands then that will be the end of the Thrill . But the chase will continue
    Look at all of us enjoying the Rocky Mountains and the adventure it offers and the beauty just the time being out with your loved ones I’m sure have brought such joy. Forrest did something good here.

  5. I lean more towards two or more water sources meeting in a lake, reservoir, dam, etc…. or two or more lakes, reservoirs, dams, etc. The reason for that, to me, is warm water is on the surface and the cold water passes through the bottom…. that’s my opinion, this week anyway.

  6. My favorite WWWH is when a Hot Springs fed river/stream (making it warm) merges with a larger colder river. That confluence churns the rivers’ water and makes the warm water halt. This happens several places along the Rio Grande, the Yellowstone River, the Colorado River, and …. Um, just about everywhere in the the Rockies. O’ man, pick your favorite and good luck this spring.

  7. Behind a dam. In a glacier/ at cold temps. Where a hot water river merges with a cold water river. In a spigot. When you pour it down a well. Honeybucket/ At the end of a good #1. At certain elevations where cold freezes it. At certain altitudes where clouds/evaporation max out. In a bathtub. Winter. The ocean. A place where warm water suddenly gets hotter and evaporates ( like if it hits magma). The North Pole. The ‘end’ of a river that turns into a waterfall (leastways from the POV of a rafter coming downstream!).

    🙂 help! Too many options!

    • Forrest has stated it is not associated with a dam or a structure.
      I am sure someone here can reference the exact words he used.

      • No, he did not say that. People need to listen close to what he says, for example:

        He said the treasure itself is not associated with a dam or structure, he did NOT say the clues aren’t.

        He said the Treasure is not in Iowa or Utah, he did not say the clues aren’t there. For example, you could start in Iowa so long as you end up in NM, CO, WY, or MT in the Rocky mountains where the treasure is.

        So, WWWH does not even have to be in the Rockies!

        • Flotten:
          Forrest DID say that WWWH is not a dam.
          He never said anything about Iowa as far as I can remember..
          He did rule out Idaho and Utah a long time ago..
          Perhaps you meant Idaho..

          And I agree with you that he did say that the treasure is not associated with any structure…
          But the word “associated” is an interesting word..
          He might have said “the chest is not in, nor near any structure.”
          That would have been a much clearer statement.
          But he didn’t..he used the word “associated”..
          This really clouds his intention for many people…
          There are at least a couple of interpretations of what Forrest meant by that statement because we do not know for certain.
          To some it definitely means the chest as well as all the clues in the poem because the clues are the only method we have of finding the chest and are therefore associated with the chest and therefore also not a structure.
          To others it means something different..
          Not unlike your interpretation…
          But that does not make your interpretation the ONLY interpretation.

          Interpretation is very important..wars have been fought over whose interpretation is correct..
          Take for example the Bible…there are many translations and interpretations of that document.
          The constitution of the USA is another document that requires interpretation because the language is sometimes unclear.

          It’s fair to be tolerant of interpretations different from your own…and it’s insulting to have someone tell us that there is only one true way to interpret what Forrest has said…

        • “” So hear me all and listen good, “”
          Now ask yourself : If I was to hide a chest full of gold etc. And I wanted it to remain hidden for a hundred years or more. Would I use landmarks that some quirk of nature could demolish with ease? One thing I did figure out was that Forrest wanted to leave his mark on this world, one that would stand the test of time.

          I will concede that WWWH could be outside of the rockies, however is does not feel right. Please consider the poem and clues as a whole. Altitude plays a big role in the poem and some of the clues. Take for instance ” Canyon down ”
          This is suggestive of a reduction in altitude. I.E. start at a certain altitude and go down.
          Logic and reasoning

  8. What we conclude about WWWH will affect our starting point. Choosing the state we search in will be determined by our conclusion. If we can’t come up with a definitive conclusion, then we are doomed to look for WWHing in all of the Rocky Mts. Forrest compassionately told us not to mess with his poem. Many still leap to the conclusion of “Hot Springs”, or some kind of “hot water”. Forrest did not say, “WHWH”, but, “WWWH.” There are other important conclusions we can draw upon with this WWWH statement, but just this point will narrow your search for a starting place immensely.

  9. Lots of Agua Frias out there…….Eagle Nest Lake is a favorite along with many other lakes like Hebgen…….Named glaciers seems to also be a favorite.

    Of course the confluence of geyser fed streams with cold water streams.

    This should be an interesting discussion……..A couple questions I’ve asked myself many times:

    Does anyone associate WWWH with an elevation? Since we have to take “it” in the canyon down does WWWH have to be above HOB?………Or is WWWH north of HOB?

    The chest is in the Rockies but is WWWH in the Rockies also?

    • Goof-
      I don’t think there is anything that tells us that the starting point has to be in the Rockies..or even in MT, WY, NM or CO. Which brings me back to the Great Salt Lake. Doesn’t all water in the great basin halt in the Great Salt Lake?…
      I can hear the groans already…
      The problem with the GSL as I see it is not that warm water does not halt there. (there is no outlet from the GSL) But that there is no canyon down.

      • I really wanted it to be in Utah also………..You’re right about the GSL, it’s a basin. And we can’t go south from there.

      • Just another thought………the only basin I’m aware of in the Rockies is the Great Divide Basin in Wyoming. The Continental Divide makes a circle there.

        • i think i will go dive into the center of the pie that everyone has been trying to eat the edges of. i am on my way. pie tomorrow.

    • Goof…Aqua Fria…
      I tried to twist Agua Fria Lake, Agua Fria Peak, Agua Fria Creek and even the community of Agua Fria (all near Angel Fire, NM) to work…Problem again was the next step…the Canyon Down…didn’t seem to exist…

      • Back in the old days I started in Agua Fria N.M. and went through downtown Santa Fe. Back in those days we weren’t sure what north of Santa Fe actually meant.

        • Goof-
          I am aware of two Agua Fria communities in New Mexico. One is near Santa Fe. The other is more or less defunct…probably an old mining settlement. But it’s just below Angel Fire and this is the Aqua Fria that I examined. There is a sign on the loop highway pointing it out and some maps have it marked, others do not.

          • Yes, I researched and saw this and went to Angel Fire and went down into the Rio Grande Canyon! We went to Eagle’s Nest and several surrounding areas Lots of clues are in these areas and we are all confused. Still looking and have found two new areas want to check out this summer or fall. Mr. Fenn is so crafty and should release more clues on another network on one of the shows. We all need just a little more guidance and I know one of us can find it. Ms Girl is eager to continue to the chase has reread poem over and over and hope soon it will just come to me….. Good Luck, Please continue discussions and new ideas!!! Lots of lightbulbs clicking on in these Hunters minds of where is WWH and new formulas and trails to follow along our many roads to the Lock Box. Happy Hunting MSGirl

          • Yes I always liked the angle Fire area. That’s one of the places it should be……..For the solve in Santa Fe I used the other Agua Fria. I took Agua Fria Road to downtown Santa Fe.

            That was way back before we knew any of the extra stuff we know today…….Ah, the good ol days.

            There’s also lots of Agua Frias in Arizona………but I couldn’t figure out a way to take the canyon down (elevation or direction) and end up in the Rockies. If Fenn figured out how to do that it would make him smile. Like what he said at the book signing (I think it was the book signing) when he finished a good sentence it made him smile.

            Begin it where warm waters halt and take it in the canyon down, not far, but too far to walk.………I can see him sitting there smiling after that sentence.

      • Dal,
        Aqua Fria connects to Middle Lake (interesting name) which is less that a mile away. From there the canyon leads to the Philmont Boy Scout camp and the Urraca Mesa (magpie) that is thought to be haunted and called the “Gateway to Hell” because it has some skull image on the side of the mesa, which can be considered no place for the meek.
        The Wolf

      • I’m on the same road very cool scenario I’ve played out. Everything seems to fit

    • Goofy, i think i know the clue that identifies WWH, and a line in the poem tells you the elevation of it

      i would rephrase your question like this … does WWH have to be above (higher in elevation than) the canyon down?

      i believe the anser is yes, it does need to be, and that, it is

  10. I, like many others have a fundamental problem with WWWH being a hot spring or geyser. Primarily because the hot or warm water simply does not halt…it continues on…cools and continues. It does not halt. Others feel just as strongly that a hot spring could easily be WWWH.

    • In other words, you are suggesting that ‘halt’ means something else entirely different? In a check of the dictionary “come to a complete stop” is incorrect?

      Water that evaporates and rises to become clouds, halts. And true, at some point it does fall as rain or snow eventually, but it does halt, even if temporarily. This is not an opinion, but a fact.

      • Dal,

        Would this not also apply to a geyser or spring, where regardless of sudden change of temperature it does halt for an instant of being cold?

        • German-
          Sure- this is all subjective. I take the word “halt” as an emphatic. I came around to this belief after I tried much less emphatic situations such as hot springs. At a hot spring the water mixes, cools and moves on in a very short period of time. No halting involved. It became clear to me that Forrest used the word “halt” purposely and I needed to find places where “halt” was actually what happened. A dam was a better choice..at a high dam warm water really does halt (in theory). But I was never happy with the dam theory just because I didn’t believe Forrest would use a device like a dam in his poem. So I kept looking for better and better “halting” possibilities.

          • Dal,
            Don’t you think that focusing on “halt” as an emphatic, rather than keeping focus on WWWH as a whole, would draw you away from what Fenn was attempting to accomplish with that line? IMO, I feel that WWWH is an ingredient like in a recipe. Once you understand what it is and combine it with other ingredients, you have the makings of a clue. But then again, this is only my opinion.

          • German-
            I don’t disagree with anything you say. I just have my own opinion…which is subject to change as my ideas fail and fall like dominos. I’ve tried lots and lots of different places for WWWH. Lots of experimentation. The one I am using now has been in my head since last fall. I have worked on it over the winter. This place meets the emphatic “halt” requirements of my belief…and more. So I am going to be using it for awhile. Instead I will be focusing on where to go from that point. Even though Forrest has stated that it gets easier once you figure out WWWH is at…In my case it is not a lot easier and it will take quite a bit more experimentation to move in the right direction from there.

          • I think wwwh is the second clue now. In the last stanza he says hear me all and listen good… if you say the first line in the first stanza enough you begin hear something in my opinion. Also – I’m asking a question here – Forrest said the chest is not resting directly near a man made structure – does that go for the clues as well to get there? I mean roads obviously but more then that is my question.

          • Clayton* I know the first clue is in the first sentence of the first stanza. I do not want to give away this clue because it took me @ 8 months to find that out. Anybody that does not agree with the above should read the book again, and again until you see it. Please do not ask me where to look for the clue because it would not be fair for me.RC

          • Dal,
            In your rumors abound section you write Forrest said start with the first clue WWWH you need to figure that out first – did Forrest tell you that was the first clue?

          • Clayton-
            Forrest said :
            You need to start at the beginning. You need to figure out where warm waters halt.

            He said this because many searchers were skipping directly to home of Brown. That is the point at which many folks were starting. ..because (I suppose) it is easier. He was trying to get them to think about the first clues rather than the middle…

            Forrest said:
            You’ll never find it that way. You need to start at the beginning. You need to figure out where warm waters halt.

            And then I believe he went on to say that the clues are consecutive and we need to figure them out in the order they are, in the poem…

          • As I recall Forest said that several people had figured out the wwwh. This was sometime back. Has anyone tried to backtrack and figure this out? My question is was it posted on the blog? Keep in mind this was said back on the 1 st blogs about a year ago??

          • At one time I thought warm waters halting was a cloud, so I looked at all the places in the Rockies with a name having to do with “cloud”.

            You are right, the emphaticness (Fenn should like that word) of warm waters seems to be subjective.

            My brain hurts. 😆

          • Glad to hear that Goofy. That means that your brain will stay healthy and alert for years to come. Perhaps Forrest’s real intentions for this poem was to exercise our brains as well as our bodies for years to come. Thanks Forrest.

          • Reminds me that I pursued the idea that water is squeezed out of the clouds as it passes over mountains. The winds from the west passing over the Rockies seemed a nice starting place.

            Also, I searched based on books that Forrest has read or offered at the Old Santa Fe Bookstore. I have enjoyed the reading, especially on weather.

          • Dams have spillways which would allow warm water to spill and hydro dams us “cold water” from deep water of the reservoir. Some generators use water to cool and thus create warm water that is sent down stream. Just some thoughts.

    • You have an interesting thought about “halt”. So you think the water stops flowing vs. changing temperature?

      I’ve always wondered what is “warm” besides the warm waters in trout fishing guides. Is warm water a specific temperature or a change from one temperature to another?

        • Geyser erupts releasing hot/warm water and it cools before it hits the ground…

      • I don’t believe it’s the water that halts but the source of the warm water that halts. RC about your first sentence clue, it’s “in there”. Like in a cave or in the woods or even better as Forrest says ” in the wood”. Forrest has stated that it is surrounded by trees but what he has not stated is are they standing or have they fallen over!

        • Just gave you a big one Dal. Also it cannot be where he used to take baths in the river. There is a clue in the first stanza that prohibits that. I thought that was it as well. The hard part is the blaze. I have re read everything he has ever stated publicly. When you get the clue in the first stanza and put it with his statements and his history there is only one place where it can be. Going soon.

          • Well…thanks Chris but I’m not sure I ever believed it was in the place where he used to take baths in the river…
            The reason I went to Ojo Caliente at YNP and many other places associated with Forrest’s past are in an attempt to know him a little better. This, in turn, I hope, will help me somehow to understand the poem better.I visit many places that are not likely locations of the chest itself…just to be there…to appreciate what Forrest appreciates about these places. To attempt to be in his space for a short amount of time, to help me be smarter about the way I search.

          • That is a great approach dal. ” you don’t know where a man has been untill you walk a mile in his shoes “

          • Warm water haults in humans when they die 90% water we are and the blaze is Forrest and brown is what we turn when we die and in a sky burial or green burial
            We are exposed to elements and we return to the trees wood the only thing allowed at a green burial cite is a small 10 by 10 brass bronze marker also you have the option ofbowningvyour own land there as big as you want it you can only find the cite threw satilite GPS there are no markers look it up green burial only way to die without a trace leagelly so if u find it don’t forget me dal there solved green burial the chest is upside down in the ground as his marker find the title and find his spot its not a grave yard its a private land for burial no coffines all natural u return to earth as u came in cold and in the wood

      • Swain-
        For awhile I started at the Eagles Nest dam. Which holds back Eagles Nest Lake/Reservoir. My theory was that it was a high dam, and as any tailwater fisherman knows, water in a reservoir/lake tends to stack up by temperature. Warmest water on the top and coldest water on the bottom (most of the time). So the theory goes that a high dam will hold back the warm water at the top while letting out the cooler water at its outtake somewhere down below. This does not work at low dams that simply have water spilling over the top.

        The Eagles Nest dam is a high dam and the outlet is far enough down that the water is cool and is the start of a pretty good Brown trout fishery in the canyon below.

        Where Warm Waters Halt, at the dam-
        In the Canyon Down, below the dam-
        Not Far But Too Far To Walk, the river goes on for many miles below the dam-
        Put In Below The Home Of Brown, somewhere below where the good trout fishing is located-

        Since then I have not felt strongly about any dams. My personal belief is that Forrest has chosen all natural elements for his clues…with the possible exception of the Home of Brown. I have no justification for this belief. It’s just how I feel he would have set it out.

        • Yeah, the poem and the book are full of nature. Very much like a Haiku poem. Again; gets me wondering how deep FF’s poetry love goes.
          Maybe using the 7 keys of haiku is the way to unlock this,….,?

  11. Hey all, longtime lurker of the threads here. I figured I ought to start contributing rather than simply consume what others contribute…

    I’m sure this has been considered, but I’ll throw it out there nevertheless: how about a endorheic basin? It’s a complete convergence of multiple bodies of water that allow no escape except via evaporation.

    • Extem, I like the idea but the problem with endorheic basins is we have to go down the canyon from there, unless down means south. The only big basin I’m aware of in the Rockies is the Great Divide Basin, but I’ll do some more research on that.

      • Indeed that’s true. South is one interpretation, or perhaps the Great Divide Basin is the general starting area, where the searcher needs to enter a neighboring canyon to continue on the quest.

        The other thought I had, which is weak at best, is the Continental Divide itself. The beginning of the Pacific watershed is the beginning of a cold water body, so all warm waters halt at the Continental Divide. Of course, the Continental Divide runs the entire length of the Rockies and beyond. Perhaps the Continental Divide is the y-axis on a graph, and paired with the corresponding x-axis value, provides a starting point. Or maybe I need to get some sleep. 😉

        • Did I write this? Might have well have written it…. amazing how our minds flow into the same water sheds.

        • Tumbling things over in my mind I think you are onto something here. Questions that came to mind when I seen Forest’s map was why such a large area? Unless we are missing the big picture. Sometimes we miss the forest for all of the trees. …. Sorry could not resist the pun. 🙂

          • GOG,

            I apologize, I meant to state Sinks Canyon versus Sinking Springs and the canyon divides the great plains and the great basin from my understanding. The old-timers used to use this area to move their livestock from the winter ranges to the summer ranges.

          • Swain, I’ve been to Sinks Canyon several times over the years; I really liked Sinks Canyon for the solve at one time but I just couldn’t get everything to fit.

            “Sinks Canyon is a rugged canyon at the base of the southern Wind River Mountains in Wyoming. Located on the eastern slope of the mountains, the canyon is named for a unique geologic formation, “The Sinks,” where the river vanishes underground near the mouth of the canyon.

            The canyon proper begins at the falls, where the Middle Fork of the Popo Agie River flows over a granite escarpment in a series of cascades. The river follows the widening canyon down into the Lander Valley. This valley is a part of the larger Wind River Basin.

            The Popo Agie joins the Wind River in the basin. The Wind flows into the Yellowstone, which drains into the Missouri and ultimately the Mississippi then the Gulf. The river begins in snow fields and alpine lakes near the Continental Divide. The Wind River Mountains get enough snow to support small glaciers.”

  12. I believe WWWH is an area. Halt can also mean temporarily stop, converge, merge or delta out. WWWH also could be an identifying explanation to a name of a river and where it ceases to exist, merging into a colder river, becoming a different river all together. The line that initially threw me was “take it in the canyon , down”. Down river…down into the canyon? What if you went down into the canyon, but going up stream? Back in the 1800’s, trappers said the opposite of up and down river that we use today. F loved the trappers/explorers. Could he have also twisted that too? Those were a few of my solve concerns, before I think I figured it out. We shall soon see. Good luck! ¥Peace¥

    • I mean…. It begins in a specific area/location, not a region, like Lummi Island as opposed to the whole Washington state. THAT’S what I meant…sorry. And Goofy, great explanation of the “Sinks”! Hey, wwwh could be a sink! Lol. Nah…?

  13. sounds like that might be a begin it where warm waters salt interpretation?

    interesting thought. dont know if there are many places like that in the rockies

  14. What about the Foxhole river? It has the geo-thermic activity from the geysers of Yellowstone and has special meaning to Mr. Fenn? WWWH be virtually anywhere…

  15. Dal,

    I think you just wanted to feel like you worked for the treasure! I know you would really be bummed if the treasure was close to a Visitor Center, a Ranger Station, or a manmade trail. I believe Mr. Fenn is a lot tougher than most people think an elderly man should be. Remember he still has the spirit of a mountain man and he is also a C survivor! I also like to think if he put all the time and effort into making the treasure chest a “Wow” factor, he’s not going to disappoint you on where the location of the treasure is going to be found! 🙂

      • Dal,

        Sorry if I offended you…was just trying have a little fun. I respect all the time and effort you have put into the Chase and helped make it enjoyable for others…My main point was that whoever finds the treasure will not disappointed at it’s resting point.

  16. I believe WWWH is a SPECIFIC location…NOT an area, or region. If I’m giving you directions to a place, I cannot tell you to start at Yellowstone Park and take it in the canyon down…because there are too many choices…but if I say Start at the Yellowstone River and take it in the canyon down, now you know where to begin…FF has said that the person who solves the poem will move with confidence and nothing will be accidental, so it follows that the directions must not be ambiguous…IMO

    • I agree Michael. Maybe not Yellowstone Park but Yellowstone Lake was, and still is, an interesting pace to me as a WWWH starting spot.

    • I’m constantly surprised to see nobody on here works backwards.

      Put yourself in Forrest’s shoes. You have a favorite place, probably to fish, that you know where to go to. And one day you decide to bury treasure there. But how can you explain how to get there when there are hundreds of creeks (maybe thousands).

      Even worse there isn’t any significant landmark nearby.

      This is where I think WWWH and canyon come into play.
      Forrest outlines something that does stand out more than just “creek”

      Unfortunately this is a little bit of a distance from the secret spot (but it’s the closest around) so you may have to drive a little bit – too far to walk.

  17. Great topic, Dal.

    Like others, I used to think WWWH was a general area like Yellowstone Park or the shore of an old sea, or even the Gulf of Mexico, and that I needed to figure out what “it” was. Then my starting point would be where “it” intersected with WWWH and I could take “it” in the canyon down.

    But then, on one of your other threads, someone said Forrest said it was a specific place, not general. So back to one of my original ideas which lay pretty far out of the Rockies and not close to anything Forrest holds dear, as far as I know. Still, I plan to check it out next time I’m out west.
    Like Dal, I think the path could begin outside of the Rockies, GSL, ID, Toledo,…

    Other wild ideas—bladders, tears, stratosphere, timberlines, cooling rod ponds, …pretty endless.

    • I remember when Utah and Arizona were apparently ruled out as locations for the treasure. Recall that there was an outpour against the ruling placing these states out of the running. “It wasn’t fair to the economies” in those states for example.

      I found comfort and shared such thoughts that these states were not ruled out as steps to the treasure and we should keep them in mind. It seemed like other chasers did not acknowledge this possibility, (very quiet on that front). A bit later thanks to Dal it became a more prominent possibility. All the states in the Rockies can play a part in finding the treasure and I believe states and countries beyond may have a part to the solution as well (not betting on it thought}

  18. Hi all, long time searcher, first time poster. IMO, there are several WWH, some are in the Rockies, some are not. Then again, keep in mind that this comes from a guy who believes that the poem does not contain the 9 clues, but leads you to them. So I have multiple canyons down, HOB, etc. The WWH that I have found do have something in common, but won’t say much more than that. Have a great day, hunters! Coming to you from St. Louis… former home of Browns!

  19. has anyone considered the hot springs in Bandolier? It stops the flow of a hot spring and you can “take it down” to a flowing river (put in)

    • Tom-
      We had a long discussion about Bandelier when a woman got trapped out there overnight last year. In my opinion Bandelier is not north of Santa Fe. It’s west.

    • Tom, we also had a discussion about Bandolier when the new map came out. It looks to me like Bandolier is not included in the shaded area of the map where the treasure is.

  20. The Warm Water Halts, when the it mixes with the cold. No longer warm. It takes it down the canyon. The water now goes down the canyon. The water.

    Hi everyone, My computer was broken, so I have been gone, so instead I have been reading the book and the poem. And realized I needed to do this. Because I found some things. Lots of reading, I had a dream last night. I was hanging with the man, Forrest and he gave me a big clue. It was a great trip.

    Lou Lee, Chased by Brown Bears in Jellystone Park

  21. The only place on this planet where any one water halts is the same place where another water begins. There’s usually no water there unless it’s raining. And warm has nothing to do with temp.

  22. I would think that water would pause temporarily under ground (halt) to be heated and then come out of geyser. Also one thing i’ve noticed everyone thinks you need to go down into a canyon, but english word for down means an area of open rolling land/hills. Food for thought. But,what do I know. I am having a blast with this puzzle.

    • Kana: I’ve often pondered the meanings of down.: like a ravine of goose down, for example, sure be something that’d make one rethink how important ‘hearing it All and Listening good’ is as a clue…
      Or just South, as in down the map.

  23. I really thing where warm waters halt is the second clue, and “As I have gone alone in there” is the first. If anybody has not found this out, they need to read the book again.

    • IMO don’t spend to much time on figuring on what is a actual clue but more of making the whole poem fit and this might free your mind a little.

    • fenn said the first clue is “ON” the book so maybe he mean the title TFTW , because he also said start at the beginning. the begining of the book would be the title so to far to walk may be the first clue.

  24. Hi All-
    I have been following this blog on and off for a couple years, but have yet to order the book and get “serious” about the possible location. I have been intrigued by all your thoughts about WWWH. Since Forrest said a child could solve this, or something to that effect, I will add my childlike thoughts.
    I replied to one poster regarding tears falling and turning to stone (Apache folklore) and queried whether there might be a site (or area) where similar geological findings might be. I also suggested that perhaps warm waters referred to all water warm enough to evaporate, condense, precipitate, and halt as snow in a snowbank high in the Rockies. Too vague, you will say; too many places this could be. Correct, unless you interpret (as I do) that you start at the base of one of these snow banks and take it in the canyon after having put in below the home of Brown. I believe the home of Brown is the starting point. I know that ff said you must interpret the WWWH clue first. And he said that a couple of searchers have gotten the first two clues right. But did he say, or simply imply, that you assign a specific location to WWWH.
    Just something to think about. Hope to see you out on the trail this summer.

    • Mac-
      I don’t know about places where there are Apache Tears…but your idea triggers two thoughts..
      First..Obsidian Mountain in Yellowstone..Apache Tears are made of obsidian I believe..
      Second..the Nez Perce Historic Trail which is unofficially sometimes called the Nez Perce Trail of Tears that runs through ID, MT, WY

      • I appreciate the reply, Dal.
        And you are a wealth of knowledge.
        The tears thought came from another blogger, so I take no credit for that, just tried to elaborate some.

    • Only from using google maps while camping and looking for the wild horses, there is a road called “Apache tears trail” down on the Wyoming-Colorado border near Adobe Town. I think this is in the area of “Browns Park” or Borwn’s Hole, too. Not saying the treasure is there, but it is so easy to find a way the clues fit different areas or interpretations – and since no one has found it maybe a new idea will lead to it.

  25. Dal,
    I have often thought your solution about wwwh at Rio Grande gorge was correct but maybe you missed some clues.Not that I know which ones. That solve seems very good! Also I am confident that once a person solves the puzzle they will know they have,not think they have. I have solved it one way to be lead to something I can’t explain and am not sure what to make of.

  26. Wow! These are all great thoughts on WWWH. My very first poem solution was below Tower Falls in Yellowstone. I was very excited when my research revealed that Tower Creek that today feeds Tower Falls was originally named “Warm Spring Creek”. The creek begins at one of Yellowstone’s hot springs on a plateau. Unfortunately you cannot access the bottom of the falls today because of a rockslide. I think the slide occurred before Mr. Fenn hid the treasure, but I am not certain of this. Warm Spring Creek ends when it merges with the Yellowstone River and from there you best not be “meek” if you head to water high and heavy loads. Just to the right of the top of the falls you will find a rock formation that looks like a flame (i.e. blaze). Check it out on Google Earth.

    Here is also a way “out of the box” thought on “Canyon down” What if “down” refers t o the “down of a thistle”.

    Here is an “out of the box” thought on home of Brown. I found a virtual tourist website by a man named Bwana Brown. At the bottom of his “home” page was a link to Yellowstone.

    Just some food for thought.

  27. Where warm waters halt could be in any hot spring. You cannot sweat for this is obvious, and you would not cry because you are enjoying yourself. My opinion.

  28. in the EIS interview Forrest said something like, the clues get easier from there, there being after WWH

    so the implication is solving WWH is the most difficult part

    so the clue we are talking about here is the hardest to figure if i understand that comment

    i could take a contrarian view on why F made that comment, but instead, ill just accept it at face value. if you’re wondering why we’re scratching our heads trying to make WWH fit some place then this comment tells us that was expected apparently

    • I agree Chris I actually think WWWH is the hardest to crack. But I’m not sure it gets any easier after that. Especially if people continue to get the first two clues and miss the others

  29. Forrest Fenn said on eisradio.org that the first clue is on the book, and I say “where warm waters halt” is not the first clue. Once you understand this is true, you can go forward and try to decipher where warm waters halt. “You have to learn where the first clue is”, he said.

    • RC-
      Forrest has also said that we need to start at the beginning, so figure out where warm waters halt. Forrest says all kinds of things and if you start chasing his comments around and his poem around at the same time you’ll end up strapped to a bed in a white room somewhere.

      • I do not like to reply to anybody disagreeing with me, because it is the thrill of the chase, and not who is the rightest of them all chase. What I cay say is that if anybody has not found the beginning, “where warm waters halt” is of no consequence.

      • I truly believe that the first clue could be other than WWWH…. However there is a pattern to the steps of the poem starting with WWWH (that’s why ff said not to mess with it, the poem). But on the other hand please remember ff’s 85% rule of non-fiction.

    • it makes sense to me

      i think it has to be the case (in my opinion) that warm waters halt has to do with the first clue … but … it is not the first clue

      how could it be a clue. warm waters halt doesn’t tell you what/where specifically its talking about.

      the clue would be what has the hidden information, what WWH actually is

      the exception would be if the ‘begin where warm waters halt’ line was also somehow cleverly encoded with the clue itself that identifies it. i dont believe that is the case though

      the quote from F you cite above would support that. (i will take your word for it becuz i dont remember that part but it is a really long clip lol)

      those are some pretty revealing statements you are quoting i think

      • That is what makes this poem so difficult. A clue is a piece of the actual whole that is left behind, like a feather to a bird. By looking at the feather, you can see if it is a bluebird or eagle. So, take HOB…It’s called an interpretive clue, and they are the hardest to solve. A tire tread or finger print are so much more easier that trying to see into someones mind and determine what their version of wwwh/hob/tftw ect is! What I say is blue, you say is teal.
        Imo. ¥Peace¥

    • RC,

      you said, “Forrest Fenn said on eisradio.org that the first clue is on the book,” Did you mean to write “on” the book or “in” the book? Thx

    • Just listened to the entire 1 hour interview with Forrest Fenn on eis radio and Forrest at no time stated that the first clue was ON the book.

  30. The very real dream I had with Forrest last night, gave me a great clue. Right before I went to bed I found a interesting place in Montana. No one has mentioned this. I feel like Forrest was trying to tell me something. He said it was about two words in the poem. Two words that we need to look at differently. He did not tell me, but gave me an example. Like a butterfly is a “Flutterby” This is very important in all of this. Forrest said to me. In my dream. You must look at it, a different way.

    • Glad I’m not the only one having ‘Forrest’ dreams. Had one last week and he told me that he had interpreted one of the clues the same way that I did. I woke up and thought ‘what?’, why are you interpreting clues when you darn we’ll know what they are! I concluded either Forrest is displaying some amazing mind powers or I need to spend some time think about other things. Or maybe it was just that spicy food I ate that night. 🙂

      • My husband swears I talk treasure in my sleep. There have been many mornings when I awoke an had an “AHA” moment. Something in my dream made me figure out another word or clue.

        I don’t have them often, but when I do, they tend to be pretty good revelations. That is how I figured out that “tarry scant” could also be a road, as well as reference to stay and enjoy the view.

        I have to think, while we all dream about Forrest and his Treasure, I wonder what he is dreaming about? DO any of us haunt him in his dreams? Maybe the Phantom does…

        • One night while dreaming I must have yelled out “Eureka”…My wife thought I said Erica. I really found out the Meaning of Life that night. It was seven nights before I could sleep again and another six weeks before I dared to dream.
          So many Mondays lost.

    • This is really something; and here is why I think that.

      Sometimes in my dreams, as an example, I “compose” music or “write” screenplays for movies. Unfortunately when I wake up, I can only remember a few bars of the song, or some visual screenshots of what I dreamt.
      I also frequently dream that I’m an eagle soaring… it always starts with me falling of a high cliff or mountain peak being terrified, then I begin controlling my fall and start catching a thermal and soar away over the valleys below. The worst part of that particular dream… waking up.
      I remember dreaming once very vividly, of morphing animals and strange faces… they kept on changing and changing.
      Imagine my surprise, when some years after that, I’ve seen Goya’s “Sleep of Reason…” etching. Ever since it speaks to me in a profound way.

      Back to your dream and what is “jarring” about it (hence this post 🙂 )… in my solve I look differently at two words:
      BUT and MARVEL.

      I believe that in this verse, there are hints about the surroundings of the chest and what one will find in there.
      I will explain it in more detail sometime later, right now I have to call Dr. Freud 😉

      • {}-
        I just read about the Sun Dance. An eagle is said to have good perception. I wonder how many searchers have covered the same territory via research.
        Here is a real dream I had. (Real dream? Odd choice of words but true.)
        Anyways, I was in an insurance agency trying insure an Eric Sloane painting on stone that I purchased. As I was telling the agent about Mr. Sloane and his friend Forrest Fenn when I noticed a man step out from another office. It was Forrest. I introduced myself and started to ask him questions. He shook my hand then walked me down the hall to the end of a long line of people waiting. I pulled a ticket from a dispenser..it looked like the star of a zenner card with the number 42 in the middle. I then awoke …the first thought I had is that there are no shortcuts.
        Not sure why I shared this dream-just had a compulsion to do so.
        I agree with you about the verse. Still trying to figure out your poem. Glad I left myself one more choice.

          • I read about the Zener Cards while researching the Star on the Flag in one of the scrapbooks. The number 42 just keeps showing up to me. Probably because I keep looking for it. You never know though – maybe it will help me to find a place where warm water halts.
            The rest was just a dream.

        • Safety Joe, I didn’t know what a Zener card was and curiosity got the best of me. Interesting to think that some people have a high degree of intuition or a deeper level of perception. An interesting application would be in saving lives or helping others when danger is present. Kind of like psychic people police consult when all else fails. Unfortunately, those people are fallible and usually counted as quacks. Just wandering the blog today wondering how others are doing with solving. I like Dal’s new thread on the poem’s architect. Interesting!

  31. Okay, I need to spout off in the worst way,
    without giving germanguys solve away.
    There is no doubt where warm waters halt,
    Or the State he drove to when the trove left his vault.

    I thought of myself as knowing the spot,
    But now I realize the depth of the thought.
    Forrest and Germanguy have high I.Q’s,
    I have time off and nothing to lose.

    If Germanguy’s wrong He’s in the right frame,
    His solve is too strong to be out of the game.
    A tweak or two could yield a new spot,
    And this area’s worth all the money I’ve got!

    If Germanguy’s off just a mile or two,
    And I solve the poem because of his clue,
    He still gets half of what I find there,
    Because he is wise and because I am fair.

    If it is where he says it should be,
    It will be on film for all to see.
    If the chase still goes on after I’ve been in there,
    It’s still the right place, just the wrong where.

    Michael D

      • Chris,
        You are far too bright for me to be sharing ANY information with…The chase is getting serious now, and everyone will sooner or later be in the same area…so I humbly decline to share at this time…If germanguy wants to share, I will let him do the typing….sorry. by the way, I divulged that info elsewhere on this blog earlier in the chase.

        • Germanguy shared some of his ideas on chasechat.com and I must say so far he has an idea solve, I also must say its not my idea solution but congrats to him and trusting someone to share his thoughts with you and you not posting them. Forrest says the chest is above 5000 feet and I think he never said WWWH is above 5000 feet. Good luck Germanguy and wish you the best on your search!

        • Michael

          thanks for the response. can i send you an email. i wont be asking for any info from you, just something i want to share that may be interesting to you and may relate to your search, and if you are working together w/ germanguy you can fw to him if u choose

          • Michael, scratch that on the email request ok. had a change of heart. you know how it is lol

    • Michael D…Bravo, Bravo! (Maddly clapping!). Love this! Will make a great page in my book of chase poetry! Yes, you get a free copy!

    • Michael your poem says something very interesting to me. Very appropriate response to Lou lee’s reference to Forrest saying that a butterfly is a flutterby and that we need to look at the words in a different way especially the one word you mentioned. It won’t get us there, only the nine clues will do that but it will tell us what to look for when we get there.

      • Nobody as of yet. They have contacted germanguy and me, but nothing is set up or anything. I will be filming my search, and when finished, with germanguy’s permission, I will share that with the blog.

  32. The words warm and cold are subjective terms and more pointedly their subjectiveness is relative to our own body temperature. Remember ff bronze Indian lesson? Something only feels cool or cold only if it emits less heat than ourselves.

    Scientifically speaking you can only measure the temperature of something if it emits heat. Energy and movement, which always creates heat, has to be present in order to measure temperature. You can’t measure the temperature of something that does not generate or emit heat. When you measure the temperature of something you are literally measuring “how much” heat is being generated or emitted.

    The scientific community’s paradoxical term ‘Abosulute Zero’ is their labeled attempt to measure the lowest possible temperature to which to their dismay they have not yet achieved. But theorectically speaking the state of ‘Absolute Zero’ can only be achieved when no energy and movement is present in the thing that is being measured.

    I say all this because technically speaking frozen water can be rightly viewed as being warm even though it is cold to the touch because it is actually generating heat. You can prove it by taking its temperature.

    Pretend for a moment that your fingers were colder than ice. If you touched the ice would it feel warm or cold?

    When I was about six years old I had stayed out in the freezing cold for too long without any gloves. When I came into the house crying because my hands and fingers were serverely cold my dad turned on the cold water faucet to warm up my hands. Interesting thing to me was that the cold water felt warm even to the point of almost hot. Which made me cry only louder.

    So here’s my hypothesis of WWWH. Water will ONLY TRULY halt when it is not moving. Generally speaking, water in its liquid form that’s not in a closed container will always be moving, seeking out lower ground. But in its frozen state like ice or snow on the ground the water has essentially stopped moving and has come to a halt. But on the molecular level it still has energy and movement and therefore it is still generating heat or warmth and therefore it can rightly be called “warm water”. It may not be as warm as the liquid stuff but technically, it is still warm.

    So begin it where there is ice or snow. Like at a place where the “water high” is sometimes frozen, or maybe even frozen all the time. Or maybe begin it where the snowline usually is or normally would be during the warmer season.

    So here me all and listen good,
    your effort will be worth the cold.

    Happy Hunting!

    • sam sam i found your write up interesting

      i agree that one of the hints here is about WWH

      if i may speak freely from my very opinionated view, and understanding its just an opinion

      i think the emphasis Forrest was making on this, that, because their hands were warm, the bronze indian felt cold, not that it was cold

      if this is the correct emphasis, then attention is directed towards that which is really making the bronze cold, and therein lies, i believe, the hint for WWH

      • hris, The emphasis I was making on warm waters is that technically speaking water is NEVER ACTUALLY COLD… Water IS ALWAYS WARM because it always generates heat. The word cold Is merely a convienent subjective term used to express or convey the concept that something is less warm in comparision to something else.

        The objective scientific question has always been… What is the intensity (as in degree) of the heat being emitted or generated? That is the sole purpose of a thermometer.

        Thermo = Greek therme, heat, from thermos, warm, hot.

        Meter = Any of various devices designed to measure… time, distance, speed, or intensity.

        A question we really need to first ask concerning ff use of the word warm is… did he intend for the word to be a vague subjective discriptor or a precise objective discriptor of the water? If we don’t get this first question right then it is not likely that we will be able to solve this particular clue. Knowing how ff enjoys being clever with words I lean towards the less commonly known but more precise objective descriptor.

        Directions always have to be 100% precise in order to arrive at the precise destination. Unless of course you stumble upon it after having been given poor directions. But I doubt that ff is giving poor directions in his poem but rather masking his precise intended meanings in the form of riddles. A riddle is only a riddle to those who do not know the precise intended meaning of the words used.

        “So I wrote a poem containing nine clues that if followed precisely…” ff ttotc pg 132

        • My friend you do not spend enough time outdoor. If you have never experienced a spring fed creek, or lake, or pure mountain runoff stream, you have no idea what cold is. And if it is generating heat, I dare you to sit your happy behind in it. Your logic is beyond my wildest thoughts. Good luck to you and may all your waters be warm….

          • Just because something does not generate enough heat to your satisfaction does not mean that it is not generating heat. Its called a thermo (heat) meter because it measures the presence of heat not the presence of cold. God Bless.

          • You sir are correct. I’m sure Mr.Fenn thought of that as he penned his poem. Thermal heat. Cold is cold. Arrghh

        • I’m more inclined to believe that f was using the term “warm” more subjectively, similar to the way he talked about bathing in the waters where the Firehole River and Gibbon merged – the water was “warm” to him, not “hot” like the Firehole or “cold” like the Gibbon. I think the poem is to be followed precisely, not individual words. At least that’s what works for my solution. 🙂

          • Only two parties got the first two clues for the longest time. That one has been used to death. Would be more than subtle also.

          • Jenny, I said SIMILAR to that example – I believe WWWH is subjective. That is definitely NOT my WWWH as I’m not about to tell anyone where I’m starting! 🙂 And even if it were the correct WWWH clue, it’s easy for searchers to go wrong anywhere along the trail to the treasure depending on an individual’s interpretation of the rest of the clues.

    • Along the lines of WWWH meaning freezing point, why not have it mean 32 degrees? As in 32 degrees off of North – either NNE or NNW ( which is technically 328 degrees on a heading). Start from? Santa Fe.
      If its NNW, it might also be a nod/clue to pay attention to the Hitchcock film of the same name and its famous locations. Certainly a film with thrills and chases…

    • Sam, interesting point you make. Anyone versed in winter survival knows how to make a snow cave to stay warm. Your point of the only time water “halts” is when it is frozen is certainly a valid point, which is why named glaciers are a favorite WWWH. It certainly fits in with “your effort will be worth the cold”……it could also mean the chest can only be found in the winter when the water is frozen. Fenn can relax and have fun after the spring thaw, because he knows it can’t be found any other time of the year.

      So far it seems we have come up with warm waters halting as:

      1. Changing temperature……geyser or hot springs fed stream meeting a cold water stream. Or when the temperature of the stream/river gets cold enough for trout.
      2. Changing physical (also due to temperature) condition…….when water (vapor) turns to clouds or when water freezes.
      3. It physically halts…….as in a lake or a basin with no outlet. Ice also fits in this category.
      4. “Warm waters” is metaphorical……..as in tears.

      I’ve had solutions with all of them except the metaphorical. To me if warm waters is metaphorical then all of the clues are metaphorical and that stretches my brain too much. Maybe I should give up and go back to looking for Bigfoot and UFO’s. 😆

      • Just curious Goofy, why would you assume that the whole poem would have to be metaphorical? Or did I just misunderstand your comment.

          • How could the final resting place of the treasure be metaphorical? The end, at least, would have to be a physical location. Personally, I have always felt the poem was a mixture of physical and metaphorical terms.

          • CJ, I don’t think the poem is metaphorical. But a metaphorical solution could (eventually has to be) tied to a physical location. For example, someone said WWWH has nothing to do with water (they didn’t say what it did refer to), another person said it was Apache Tears; so Apache Tears river, mountain, trail, etc.

            Much of the information in the poem is subjective; wise, cold, warm, brave, meek, “it”, not far but too far, heavy, etc. We are trying to solve the poem precisely with subjective, vague clues. But one spot fits everything precisely.

            What I see happening is people find a good match for a few clues but then stretch the others metaphorically to fit their spot. Or they head out to search with just a few clues that match a spot hoping to figure out the others once on location (I’ve done this myself, the few clues just fit too well not to go look).

            All of this is just my opinion…….there you go.

          • All,

            My apologies for my last couple of entries and providing some incorrect information. From now on I will refrain from providing my two cents. If I do find the treasure I will let you know. If you would like to talk with me via email, my email is swaingt88@msn.com. Thank you and good luck with your chase!

        • Like I said, just my opinion; I don’t think he mixed construction methods. That just seems too sloppy to me, not a poem created by an architect.

          Using both methods one could come up with a solution that fits anyplace.

          Of course I could be completely wrong…….Good hunting.

  33. I binged warm waters Rdand got this
    Does Warm Springs Water Well USGS Holy Ghost Spring Quad, New Mexico, Topographic Map
    Warm Springs Water Well is a Well in the state of New Mexico (county of Sandoval), located at latitude – longitude coordinates (also known as lat-long or GPS coordinates) of N 35.64603 and W -106.88859. Warm Springs Water Well is shown in the center of the topographic (topo) map, which is sourced from the United States Geographical Survey map USGS Holy Ghost Spring quad. The nearest major town is San Ysidro, NM.


    • Yeah but isn’t that on reservation? I’ve not been there but have seen the turn off many times as I pass it every time I go to Albuquerque. I did consider that area about a year ago when I was doing most of my searches in the Jemez.

  34. Maybe warm waters currently halt, have always halted, and will continue to halt in the “Never Summer Mountains”………

    If it’s never summer, then it’s most likely always winter. And if it’s always winter there, then waters will surely be halted forever!

    In the Never Summer Mountain range of Colorado, there is a place called “Lake of the Clouds”…….. maybe that could be another WWWH as well.

  35. Nice topic here. Rather than share my ideas for WWWH that others have shared I will share my left field ideas. I learned of this Chase and started my chase and realized there were so many seasoned chasers that have searched for so long – I can never catch up. So left field ideas:

    WWWH Ocean Currents (Interesting Diagrams and Maps of underwater canyons) I had a starting place around Alaska and at Labrador.

    Others that I looked for a tie-in word;
    Shower Basins

    Thanks for the discussion

  36. Dal, if I remember correctly, in an interview, F answered, it is N of SF…but I won’t say how far E or W of N it is. Or did I dream that! I will go review all interviews again. I’m sure he said that, because if you take N literally, then just draw a straight line up the map and check every waterway directly N. Hum… ¥Peace¥

    • I can’t recall that statement. I do remember him saying in an interview…a while ago…something like this:
      When I said north I meant in a northerly direction.

      He may have said that around the time of the Bandelier incident.

      But to me that’s just common sense anyway.

      • Do we have a consensus on N?


        North =

        1. Straight North 0 deg heading, not much deviation allowed.
        2. Generally North as in say a 45 deg cone starting at Santa Fe. If you go past NE, leaning more E you’re NOT North anymore.
        3. Any Latitude North of Sante Fe’s lattitude (even by 1deg) is North. This would allow something that the average person might call East to be considered North.


        1. Seems a bit too picky & restrictive, yet Taos Fenners like this one I’m sure.
        2. Seems a bit too subjective.
        3. While giving rise to some strange definitions of North, is at least a definable quantity.

        By combining choice 3 with the map in TFTW, we could draw a line left to right 8.25Miles North of Sante Fe & declare anything above this line on the map fair game.



        • Thanks for narrowing our focus on what constitutes North Clinger. Nice work. If I quit searching MT and start NM can I make it from Tx and home in 1 day? My 4wheeler reverts to pumpkin mode at midnight.

  37. To helmetguru…regarding Holy Ghost Spring Quad, I’m not familiar with that particular place, but the village of San Ysidro in Sandoval County, NM, is southwest of Santa Fe. I live nearby.

  38. Is there anywhere in the rockies that it always snows but never rains? Wouldn’t that be one form of warm water halting? That interpetation is not ambigious and would give a location of sorts? If it wasn’t just the higher elevations but a specific location.
    What made me think of this is that I live in an area of higher elevation and when the valleys below get rain a lot of times ours is snow. I know that Kanafire can track white man through fresh snow,if wind not blowing!

  39. He says precise which is a point. He says to find his rainbow is the answer. How is a rainbow made? It’s made by the sun and water. Kids draw rainbows. He was going into the sun. He told us about that scientific effect with water spinning. So the science behind a rainbow makes sense. All colors make a white light. He mentioned an apple which is related to Newton who has a theory of a rainbow spinning and making a white light. When you die, they talk about the white light. A child would learn that in school as well. His Mom is looking through a window which causes rainbows. Find a rainbow with a point and you will find the start I believe.

      • Used in SW desert areas to provide rainwater to wildlife. NM uses them. They can be small or elaborate with drain areas visible from the air, commonly known by pilots.
        There. I spilled the beans…

  40. I hear many thoughts about “halt”. So I thought I’d add some of my own concerns to the mix. This is going to border on wacky…

    People on this very page have posted about how one of the definitions of halt is a “temporary stopping”…as opposed to a “permanent stopping”. In other words the warm water could temporarily come to a halt as it changes direction…as in where the warm water from a hot spring might enter a cooler stream and temporarily halt (microseconds) as it changes direction and moves downstream.

    AND we all know that Forrest likes to play with words and he likes to bend the rules. We should certainly expect some of this in his poem. So, it falls to reason that he might very well choose “alternate” definitions for words rather than the typically applied definition…and “halt” might very well be one of those words where he would choose an alternate or “not typically applied” definition.

    Here is where the wackiness begins…
    Those who do not like exercises in frustration should bail out now!
    As long as we are “supposing”…what dictionary do you “suppose” Forrest would use? And as long as we are supposing..what dictionary would he have used in say 1988 or even 1995 when he was writing the poem? Unless he was a time traveler it seems unlikely that he would have used anything on-line.

    Forrest’s formative years were at a time when patriotism in this country was pretty high. He was ages 9-16 when WWII was raging. WWII was a very “accepted” war in this country. It was the “good fight”, particularly compared to Korea and Vietnam where the general feeling seemed to be that we should have stayed out. There were certainly those opposed to our involvement in WWII but mainstream America was pretty well entrenched in getting into that fight to stop the Nazi’s and get even with the “Japs”.

    So…once again…I ask what dictionary do you suppose a career military, combat pilot, mid-texas, ex-basketball star, ruggedly independent, good old American boy choose to have on his desk before the advent of Wikipedia and Google?

    I don’t think it would have been the Oxford…that’s edited in Britain by a guy named Nigel for crying out loud…It might have been the good-old, and very popular Merriam Webster. A dictionary with roots in America…not Britain..an American’s dictionary…for and by…

    I have one on my desk that I have been toting around since the 1970s. The word halt is in it with 4 principle definitions depending on whether you are using it as an intransitive verb (yawn), transitive verb, noun or an adjective. These are the same as the definitions laid out in today’s on-line version of that dictionary…to wit:

    Halt as an intransitive verb-
    1: to walk or proceed lamely
    2: to stand in perplexity or doubt between alternate courses
    3: to display weakness or imperfection

    Halt as a transitive verb-
    1: to bring to a stop
    2: to cause the discontinuance of

    Halt as a noun-
    1: the stopping or ending of movement, progress, or action
    2: a small railroad stop at which there is no station

    Halt as an adjective-
    1: lame

    Note that the definitions do not say “temporary stopping”.
    As in the Google dictionary..which normally comes up displaying the following:

    1.bring or come to an abrupt stop.
    “there is growing pressure to halt the bloodshed”

    1.a suspension of movement or activity, typically a temporary one.
    “a halt in production”

    My point being that just because a modern resource such as Google or Wiki define words and places in certain ways does not mean that those definitions are the ones that Forrest had available to him, or would have been taught and used while he was constructing his poem.

    My further point being that it is useful to understand the man, his motivations, his upbringing and influences. Some of which are unknowable…others are better understood…
    It’s important (I believe ) to pay attention to his interviews and actions. Even his blunders tell us a great deal about his personality and can shed light on how his poem might be interpreted.

    But of course…this is only my opinion…and it’s somewhat of a rabbit hole…

    • Brilliant breakdown in halt, Dal: noun def.#2 is fascinating. !!’
      And Isn’t the Santa Fe river ‘warm waters’? The SF river ‘halts’ a couple times a year as it’s an intermittent stream…
      But riffing off ‘SF’ and your old Merriam Webster (I’ve got a 1964 version as my desktop reference 😉 ), the ATSF railroad was still a company in ’88 (didn’t merge to BNSF until ’96). So perhaps n.2+ the old SF railroad = wwwh. There’s a song in a 1946 movie about that RR too.
      The AT&SF (the t stands for Topeka, not toledo, for what it’s worth) RR’s main lines were in CO and NM though they have short bits of abandoned tracks in NM, WY and MT too.

      Time to break out my old RR maps and cross-ref with the poem…

      • My search is on hold (halt) for a bit. But, I always stop in for a quick look see of the current action here.
        The rail road aspect has always been one of my faves. The only part that is not consistent is that the water(s) on an old locomotive are generally more HOT than warm, but who knows. The same goes for hot springs and thermal springs. Warm compared to what? My research has put me in the camp that says there is a crucial clue, hint, word that tells us where to begin. I have some really nice locations, but some how I end up making a big circle. If I could travel fast enough I swear I would see myself in the rear view mirror !! Nice topic here and very key…

    • Man, that’s not a rabbit hole…….that’s a super massive black hole. 😆

      I’m not sure it’s possible to understand a fellow whose #1 rule is: It doesn’t matter who you are, it only matters who they think you are.

      A few of Fenn’s quotes:

      If the reader knows exactly what you mean then who cares what the word is.

      When I write, I can say anything I want to, because I don’t have any rules.

      Well, you know…let me put this in perspective. So many people have decided they’re going to take a picnic lunch out on Sunday and look for the treasure…or something to do over spring break. I’m lookin’ at a hundred years down the road…a thousand years, maybe ten thousand years down the road. It took me 15 years to write the poem. I’ve changed it so many times and I’ve said before that I didn’t write that poem…it was written by an architect…each word is deliberate.

      When I wrote that poem, I wasn’t playing any games. It’s straightforward.

      If a person reads the poem over and over…and are able to decipher the first few clues in the poem, they can find the treasure chest. It may not be easy, but it certainly isn’t impo…I could go right straight to it.

      I haven’t given a clue that I think was going to help anybody…

    • Dal,

      I think something interesting to consider is why would he say “warm waters halt” instead of ” warm water halts” ?

      The former would imply a plural, meaning there are “waters” and not “water”…

      The latter would imply just one water.

      So, you’re looking for where 2 more more “waters” halt…

      I also like the “halt” train station idea…. interesting… probably only about a million of those…

      • Brian, not wanting to muddy the waters, or is it, not wanting to muddy the water. I did some research on that topic. It seems it can be used either way. Not that a rule would make any difference at all to Fenn; here’s what I found.

        Water is usually used as a noncount noun, but the form waters is sometimes used. Editor Kory Stamper helps explain the difference.

        What’s the difference between “the gray water of the Mississippi” and “the gray waters of the Mississippi”?

        Both the noncount water and the plural waters are used to refer to a specific body of water, as in “the water(s) of Lake Michigan.” But there are subtle differences in their use.

        The noncount water is also used generally of any water, whether it is in small quantities (“a glass of water”) or in large quantities (“We went swimming but the water was too cold.”).

        The plural waters, on the other hand, is used especially of an area of seawater, and tends to appear in more formal contexts (“shipping lanes in international waters”) and in literary contexts (“the azure skies and clear waters of the Pacific”).

        If you are not sure which one to use, choose water as it is the more versatile and less formal of the two.

  41. Halt as a temporary stopping:
    Another construct for a place WWWH if we were to use the “temporary stopping” idea would be ANY lake or reservoir that a warm stream pours into before moving out via the outlet.

  42. Dal,

    Sorry for being off topic but it might put deciphering WWWH into a clearer perspective. Or maybe not.

    IMO the 9 Clues:

    1. riches new and old
    2. waters halt
    3. canyon down
    4. home of Brown
    5. creek
    6. heavy loads & water high
    7. the blaze
    8. the cold
    9. the wood

    I believe that these are the 9 elemental clues (the landmarks so to speak) that have to be present and fit logically together into ff precise directions on “how” (TTOTC pg 129) to find his hidey spot.

    Directions always require definitive, stationary landmarks to guide someone to a place and whether it be a street sign, a number on a house or a white pebble in a stream makes no never mind. Also, a landmark can be identified by the condition of the place or of an event that occurred.

    DISCLAIMER: I could be wrong!

    • Samsam, You missed the most important clue. Go back and re read the first two stanzas.

        • Wash= read, rinse= check ideals. Repeat until you find the blaze. :p
          Or carpenter’s rule: Measure twice, cut once.

        • sorry cant tell you samsam. Took me to long to figure it out to just give it away. good luck.

  43. Goof has me chasing clouds. Dal has me on the RR. I guess I’ll sit on the tracks during a rainstorm while I’m reading the book and get hit by by a train. When I land I’ll look down. I need an aspirin.

    • Pirate, that’s funny; you’ve almost got the perfect solution…….Your comment reminded me of the “The Perfect Country And Western Song” by David Allen Coe. You left out your pickup truck, mom, beer, and prison in your solution.


      To those of you who aren’t country music aficionados you have to listen to the whole song (sorry) to understand.

      • Okay Goof, here you go. The perfect country and western solve. You know the melody.
        I waa drunk the day my mom got out of prison.
        Out on the quest, reading the poem, in the rain.
        But before I could get to the blaze in my pickup truck.
        I got run over by Dal’s damn train.
        Now I’ll look down as long as you will let me…
        (You know the rest)

  44. There is a Macro and a Micro search to get to the treasure location.
    The Macro uses Historic Places that will carry on in history for the intended 1000 years or more thru Historic Registers ,Books and Local Authorities.

    The Micro is where the real Brain Strain Begins.

    Macro is

    Levee Mural = WWWH
    Rte 25 = Canyon Down
    Brown Hotel Springer NM = Home of Brown
    Urraca Mesa and Agua Fria = Heavy Loads and Water High

    That then puts you on this map below and notice Urraca Mesa on bottom left.


    Look quickly down and you will see WWWH
    Down is Northeast from Urraca Mesa.

    You are now ready for your first Micro solve.
    As Forrest has mentioned that “few are focusing on the key word”


    Get it ?

    • Ya Sha Wa, I have long felt Urraca Mesa was being depicted in the 6 cats and 5 squirts of milk story in TOTC and the two magpies in the looking for lewis and clark story but had only used it as a reference to philmont. I had tried a few times to make the clues fit using the springer Brown house also but always I felt like I was forcing the clues to fit and just walking onto Urraca Mesa was a no go, it’s on philmont and if one gets caught doing that they going to be in trouble. I did cross through philmont at the Rich Cabins once going into the Valle Vidal (little yellowstone). The clues, for me fit much better there. Now I still believe I was right about Urraca Mesa being depicted in the story in the book but have come to think that it was because of the person I can fit everywhere in Mr. Fenns stories, the person I call the great connector.

      • Casa Del Gavilan is not Philmont Property.
        The Gavilan Trail map for Casa depicts all of the clues.
        Casa Del Gavilan is held by a 30 year Trust started about 1993.
        You are wise to have found the Urraca connection.
        Magpies naturally gather shiny objects.

        • I know that Casa Del Gavilan is not on philmont but actually surrounded by it. I had once thought about staying there so I could go out and have a look see. But when I saw there admonitions not to tread on philmont property while hiking I thought better of it.

          • Casa Del Gavilan is 225 acres of land and on it’s hiking trail map has all 9 clues.No reason to go onto philmont property.It would take years to search it as there is many,many,many hiding places that fit the poem.

            Look at Dals last post here from April 13 that Forrest said first you must figure out WWWH and then follow clues in consecutive order.
            So there is 2 ways to look at the poem.

            4 cards and a Joker as Forrest’s book indicates.

            Levee Mural
            Rte 25 canyon south
            Brown Hotel Springer
            Auqua Fia/Urraca Mesa

            Urraca Mesa is listed on Trail Map.

            So that is where the consecutive 9 clues start.

            1. WWWH ends by intersecting Rte 21 where “Gate Locked” is indicated on map.

            2.Canyon Down is Rte 21

            3. Too far to walk is that a person wopuld be driving/riding a vehicle,maybe a horse.

            4.Put in below home of brown is the entrance to Casa Driveway as there is a fish stock pond above it,the Casa is above it and philmont is above it (3 homes of brown)

            5.No place for meek is the driveway as it goes thru a horse pasture that has a herd of horses regul;arly.

            6.End is ever drawing nigh,as the driveway is ending at the Casa.

            7.No paddle up your creek is Urraca Creek that is identified on map as a dry creek that comes from a dry lake.

            8.Heavy loads and water high is water storage tank house.

            9.If you have been wise and found the blaze is the light poles that go down driveway and would be noticed at night.The lights lead to where there was a home of brown building that is now gone as it was damaged by a blaze on march 2 2006.

            Then a person should realize that they are at the correct place but the opnly chest they have at that point is pride that they found the treasure location.

            Treasure location in the broad sense of the phrase.

            So this is where all the fun begins as once again the treasure location has been “focused” in on.

            Now another Focus or 2 or 3 or 4
            Then the Joker again ?

  45. Major Fenn is a extre smart man: you have to watch his hands when he talks like you would a magician and its not always the definition of what a word might be, but the sound example: buried is bur as in its real cold there. you have to learn all the sounds of the animals on earth and where there homes are to find the treasure, and getting his new book to far to walk is a must, after reading this wonderful book I began to think more like a genuine human being. I am a listen to the sounds in the wind kind of person and say every day; you are the vine and I am the branch and apart from you I can do nothing. sorry I can,t spell worth a toot. I live in wagener, south Carolina.

  46. Everybody is concentrated on “where warm waters halt”, but if you do not decipher “as I have gone alone in there”, then you will never get the correct “where warm waters halt. Read the book , it is in there.RC.

      • There you have it. I have always maintained there are more than 9 clues. You have to know where to start. See you after Easter. Have to have my annual BBQ Bunny Party!

        • Hope that’s an Easter BBQ and not BBQ’ed bunnies ! 9 clues w/ additional hints sprinkled in… IMO

          • Nope. No clues. Having BBQ rabbit and beer for Easter. Come on down. Y’all are welcome. Then it’s off to the wild west!!

    • Thanks for the advice RC…will check it out. Always wondered about going alone in there. First stanza must mean something.

  47. Dal, this is for you…do you remember wher Mr. Fenn said ” you won’t need luck.”? I remember him saying ” the person will read the poem over and over, read the book, then the poem again, and walk with confidence to the treasure.”. Some people on here stated he says you won’t need luck. Just wondering. I can’t find it in the interviews, or did he really say that?! Thanks! ¥Peace¥

    • Oops, correction… he said they will have read the poem over and over, analyzed and moved with confidence. But where did he say luck? Thanks. Donna

  48. What if?
    …WWWH is a specific place on “IT” in which multiple meanings of warm water intersects.

    • Before IT, in my humble opinion is WWWH. I may be wrong,I’m still going fishin’

  49. I overheard a Native American taking about the Warm Water family. He said they had a son named Luke.

  50. Where warm waters halt. What a concept… Could it be at geyser? Possibly. What about a cold mountain stream meeting a river? Maybe. How about an old steam locomotive sitting on the railroad tracks? (Dal put that in my head). Or maybe it’s a cloud? (Thanks for more confusion Goof). A reservoir, lake, outhouse, bathtub,pond, dam?
    Good work Forrest. I’m a one legged Duck swimming in circle.

    • I thought I had posted at the end, so I will continue here. I overheard a Native American talking about the Warm Water family. He said they named their son Luke. I didn’t know if it was a joke or not. So just now I looked up and there is a family name of Warmwater and sure enough there is a Luke. Also the name Warm Water but I didn’t continue the search.

      Anyway, I started to wonder if this might be related to WWWH, like maybe a name on a headstone.

      • I love this!!! Best comment of all…Luke/Warm! Love it!! Sends us all way out of the box….nice thinking Mike.

  51. Let’s start over for a minute. (Just a thought)… What if we never knew anything about Forrest Fenn. Knowing nothing, as to where he lives now or before…What if FF never gave us any clues….where would you start to find his treasure? He has already told us, you “only need the poem”. It was kind that FF has narrowed down our search, yet many of us have already said we could throw that “dart” anywhere in the “Rockies” and it will always work for us. Time to really concentrate on the Poem!!!! Not saying Google Earth and GPS can’t help, I really think it may work later, rather than now. I, too, have thought outside the “box” with real imagination and have been shot down with some insults. So be it….Just kindly advice.

    • If you only use the poem you need to know where the warm waters ( plural) halt. However knowing this is not enough. You need to understand the clues that come before he tells you where to start. Once you understand the clues preceding the begining then you will know where to look for the blaze. Once you find the blaze then you can look for “in” there IE “as I have gone in there”. ” In there ” is the hardest thing to figure out.

  52. FYI-
    Small landmark today..
    Sometime during the day we had our 2 millionth hit…
    It was just about a year ago that we reached a million hits..
    Okay..funs over..back to work you unpuzzlers..

    • Congrats Dal on the 2 mill mark. Should of had Google ads running on the site.

    • Dal, I remember watching the hit counter last year. How quickly it went from 1/4 mil to a mil was pretty crazy ! Still dedicated to this site and kudos to you for all of your efforts to keep us informed. Thanks and stay well…

    • Wow! That is a landmark! Congrats! Think of all the money you could have made. 🙂

      Thanks Dal, for all your efforts in providing us with all this info from or about ff. I’ve enjoyed reading about everyone’s adventures too. It will be a bit sad when this is over, if it ever is in our lifetime. What will we all do? LOL!

  53. My WWWH – has always been the continental divide…. sometimes I think the poem is referring to train halts on the continental divide….

    One of my solutions was near St. Elmo, Colorado..

    For those of you that haven’t been, it is beautiful and worth checking out….

    Here was my solution:

    WWWH – The old Alpine Train Station
    HOB – The historical Brown House just behind the main road in St Elmo, down the chalk creek canyon a bit
    Blaze – The Chalk Cliff Mountains

    My dad an I searched Chalk creek pretty well… Big walking Sticks, jerky and doritos (that’s our usual provisions)…. but found no blaze… or treasure.

    when we returned home… we couldn’t find our car… and had a good laugh about the fact that we thought we might be able to find the treasure…. but couldn’t locate our car!

    I also like the Wyoming Basin for WWWH (the water evaporates here instead of going to the ocean) – the sweet water canyon is just down the road….

    Unfortunately, that darn continental divide is soooooo long! Ha….

    I have loved every trip I have taken… except for the one where I crossed over the divide down to Alpine station – (I was alone – and yes, I have been scolded by friends and family) .. and some how my car ended up being 15 miles away… unless I backtracked and crossed over the divide again… which I just wasn’t up to doing… luckily – some nice guys on 3 wheelers… drove me back to my car near Hancock Pass!

    I can’t wait for my next trip…. I’m heading out this week!

    Does anyone know how the weather is in Northern Yellowstone??

    • It’s not the weather, but the snow on the ground that is the problem. They still have 5 feet or more in most places.

    • More snow headed that way. My cuz lives in Atlantic City. Went to ck it out for us yesterday. Snow still deep at 5000ft! Sorry! ¥Peace¥

  54. To whom it may concern…
    I have put this offer out before, but I thought I would offer one more time. If you have a COMPLETE solve and a location less than 500 feet by 500 feet, an it is in Southwestern Colorado or Northern New Mexico, I will check your spot for you. If the chest is there, I get half the booty….you keep your half and the chest if its your solve….I will film the search and provide you with video evidence. I am not signing contracts or waiting until I get there to hear the spot. If you want to share your solve and have me check it, you just have to take my word that I will do as I say. I leave the 11th of June. I have a few spots to check out already (Only if the chest is not in the first place I check;)) but I will have time for more if they are specific enough. I assure you I am a man of my word. let me know if you are interested and I will e-mail or Skype with you. Any part of some is better than No part of any.

    • Hey! I thought you and germanguy were doing your search together? Sorry if I’m wrong. I don’t get the vibe from CO. Now NM, maybe since he said “mountains” first, then added “Rocky” later. Just MO. I’m still leaning toward the Cimarron…good luck. We will be in WY June 1, then head south if we flunk out there. I have a few possibles in NM. One is a spoy Dal checked, but found a direct route with NO hiking! Something F would use! Good luck! ¥Peace¥

  55. On the front cover of TTOTC book, just to the left in the picture of Forrest is a wooden sign saying “WATER”

  56. mike d you have no solve to an pie nor a wish of brown
    below the home,
    if do tell where the halt I ask
    say that I ask is this !
    top whom it may concern ?
    you have a olive jar on a horse!! that was spooked?

    • Cowboy,
      If you had written the poem instead of FF, I would have given up a long time ago…..What in the heck are you saying to me? I cannot translate it into English….sorry. Lol.

      And Germanguy and I are collaborating nicely! I just want to help those that cannot help themselves….

  57. I have ask before and I will mention it again. Did anyone else find the strange missing number? What does it mean? Just asking not to reveal it…just say if you found it in TFTW…..? something seems off.

    • Yes, I found it, I’ll tell you what it means, but first you need to say what number it is. There are many missing numbers. Heck , it could be 2,4,6,8,10, or whatever. Why ask a question like this and not be able to discuss it? So, just say it. It won’t give away anything that most people don’t already know.

  58. Lou Lee…I’m not playing with the numbers in the poem. But in a repeated story in TFTW , I found a number left out of the story. Is that what you are talking about? In TOTC it was in there Several times…

  59. The second part of BBC documentary about treasure aired today on BBC-1 in the UK. It has the story about Forrest’s treasure that they shot last summer in Santa Fe and Montana. So I just noticed that the hits on the blog have doubled. Up to 593/hr and climbing. Lot’s of Brits checking us out I guess. So make sure your socks match and be nice…

    So far none have made any comments or dropped me a note. I don’t know if they are writing Forrest.

    Unfortunately that doc isn’t airing on BBC America. Maybe they will make it available on-line in awhile.

    • Welcome aboard mates! Jump right in and join the wacky world of the Fenntastic Voyage !

  60. Welcome BBC viewers!!! Join the madness! We are all going crazy trying to figure out the clues in the Poem and the Hints in the books! Happy
    Hunting all!

    Lou Lee, Chased by Bears in Jellystone Park……

  61. Lets play a little game and see where it leads. In your own words rephrase
    ” Begin it where warm waters halt” Please keep in mind the basic gist of the clue.
    Example: Start it where warm waters halt.

  62. Begin your search in the clouds where the warm waters have stopped rising. thx Goofy 🙂

      • Ok time to dismiss this ideal. Water has three states of being: A solid, a liquid, and a gas. How do these states occur?

      • If your question is in regards to form as to what they look like then IMO the answers generally speaking would be…
        1. Solid (frozen H2O): Ice, snow & hail.
        2. Liquid (condensed H2O): My brain cramps on this one. Maybe water. 🙂
        3. Gas (vaporized H2O): Vapor, steam, fog & clouds.

        If your question is in regards to cause, as to how they come to be, then IMO the answers would be…
        1. Solid Water: Generally caused by atmospheric temperatures at or below water’s freezing point.
        2. Condensed Water: Generally caused by the law of molecular attraction.
        3. Vaporized Water: Evaporation, one type of vaporization, is a surface phenomenon caused by the transference of kinetic energy by the collision of water molecules on the surface. And the lucky molecules, those who take more energy than they give, and absorb sufficient amounts of that transferred ‘latent heat’ energy get to overcome and escape from the cohesion at the surface.

        b) Evaporation can occur from either its solid state (sublimation) or from its liquid state.

        c) Boiling, another type of vaporization, is not just for the lucky few molecules at the top but all molecules whether low or high get to participate and have an equal chance to vaporize.

  63. There are warm waters, that are not hot springs. But Springs around 50 degrees Many of these warm waters are not shown on maps etc. Know mostly to fisherman and locals.

  64. ” I am waiting for you,Vizzini . . . you told me to go back to the beginning, and so I have. This is where I am and this is where I will stay. I will NOT be moved.”

    In reading through so many solves, possible solves, and incredible where-did-you-come-up-with-THAT entries, my brain is now a pretzel. (Do these people have jobs or are they all retired?)

    I have only a couple of thoughts to be shot down, so feel free.
    But, with all the speculation of WWWH, and too far to walk, and this blaze and that, I really think that FF is probably chuckling at the complexity of this whole thing.

    Remember, a child could solve this he implied or stated. Thus, I have gone back to the beginning.

    First, begin WWWH. With his past (and perhaps his present) spent around so many hot springs, and with there BEING so many hot springs, and with FF being such a clever fellow, I find it hard to accept that he was talking about the obvious. I truly believe that he has a trickier solution. Mine is a snow pack up in the Colorado Rockies. But there are some other out-of-the- box solutions that I think would work as well.

    Please don’t get me wrong; I applaud all the incredible work done by so many. And, I love reading about your adventures. I just don’t think WWWH is so obvious.

    One more thought: WWW are the three letters of the Order of the Arrow in the BSA as many of you fellow Scouts and OA members know. In looking up some history on it, (yes, I actually decided to try to contribute a tid-bit of history to the mix), it was started at a camp known as Treasure Island. Hmmm. Another coincidence with the letters. One of it’s training bases is at (yes, most of you diehard searchers already know,) Philmont.

    I believe the original Scout uniforms were brown. So, there. Can anyone make a connection there? I don’t have time or energy. I will simply go to my place in Colorado, take a look, say, “Aw shucks.” and move on with life.

    But if you can do anything with that, great.
    Happy (and safe) hunting.


    • Oh, by the way Mac. Did you ever consider a conspiracy? Could be an all seeing eye!!!

        • Why is it that Eye must go? -Odin? Marvel Gaze?
          As Eye have gone in there alone?
          (I dunno either)
          Now Eye done it tired and now Eye’m weak. 😉

          • Oh . . . clever. I looked up Cyclops and it said that his beam blasts through rock and metal. So I’m taking a sledge to hit every rock that looks like a clue. NOT.

          • The Spanish word for eye is “ojo”. You all already know Ojo can also mean “spring”–as in Ojo Caliente–Hot Spring…just saying–I’ve contemplated the fact that “wise” (if you’ve been “wise” and found the blaze) could double for W(eyes) = W(ojos)=springs. I’m still considering warm springs as my WWWH. Also, have any of you considered that WWWH is the beginning of where that warm water gets hotter (boils)–not colder? Which then points me to YNP and the geysers, boiling mud pots, etc.

          • Cynthia, I would like to meet you at El Pinto between today and Thursday. My treat. If a Santa Fe restaurant is better for you, just let me know. I’ve never really met a fellow Chaser (outside a book signing, that is). We can dine and have the most popular drink. You just let me know what the best time is for you. If Monday through Thursday, it’d have to be 5:30 pm or later. Have a happy Easter… abqnewkey@hotmail.com

    • FF counted on 99% of people making this harder than it really is. He actually put the solution in the wide open. It is we who are making it hard. I had to remember KISS.

  65. Maybe we are over thinking it, Maybe we need to break the clues down to it’s most simple form and try to see it that helps. Our minds can play tricks on us and cause a illusion to make it work. Reading everyone idea of clues its almost like massisteria and someone’s idea starts making sense to me but then a reality kicks in and brings me back to what I have researched. I would have to say if you ever start to question yourself I would refer to Dal’s cheat sheets and it works great so you only have to question your ideas.

    • Good advice, W.
      I guess I shouldn’t read so much of this blog.
      I am chomping on the bit to get out there, enjoy the Rockies, and take a look or two.
      I am only a 5 1/2 hour drive from my search sites, but teaching requires so much time and especially at this time of year, that I really must wait.
      Oh, yeah. The snow won’t be gone for a while anyway.
      But thanks. Off to the cheat sheets. Mac

  66. I just considered the possibility that warm waters halt because of the fact that warm water isn’t allowed there. While searching that , I find that there is one specific place that has its own unique significance. F may have had something to do with the significance which is why its special to him. There is a canyon, and a home of brown. Further research is needed.

  67. I wish to share my “Ode to Forrest Fenn”

    Here is a man who had no throne
    But found the truth within his heart
    That search we may to find our home
    At journeys end at last we depart.

    His life was full and often blessed
    Following his dreams through many a year
    Until finally meeting his final test
    As the sign at the gate says “Your welcome here”.

    Remember those mountains he had you climb
    Above God’s beautiful countryside
    Be it Spring, summer or winter time
    Hoping to find a chest he did hide.

    As time goes by and older we get
    Be it in our memory or written by pen
    The things we’ll remember and never forget
    The Thrill of the Chase and Forrest Fenn.


  68. Warm water halts upon freezing? haha…sorry, my head is still stuck on the Leadville area:-)

  69. Ok….I’ve read every post in this thread, and there are ALOT of them! Nobody ever mentions how or why we are to accept WWWH as not being a dam. It’s stated to be one of the facts on the Cheat Sheet. I have posed this question in other posts and on other blogs and I never get a response. Was this a statement made by FF? If so, is there a direct quote, in context, that can be referenced somewhere? I have strong feelings on my interpretation of WWWH and it does kind of involve a dam. The dam doesn’t cause the warm waters to halt. They would halt if there were no dam there, all the same. WWWH has nothing to do with a dam……but in my search, there is one present. .???

  70. Jason,
    No where has been said that you cannot begin it at a dam..WWWH can be whatever you interpret it to be. However, your final destination or place that you think the treasure is at, is not at a dam. Don’t dig up the dam! You will get wet and make the people in the valley very upset with you!

    • Pirateofgold

      “No where has been said that you cannot begin it at a dam”

      the poem says begin it where warm waters halt. Forrest said WWH is not related to any Dam. so the poem would be saying, with this new information, begin it at WWH (not a dam)

      so to me that would mean your above statement is incorrect

      “WWWH can be whatever you interpret it to be.”

      this statement to me would be incorrect also. WWH could be possibly correctly identified as anything you want, except a Dam.

      “However, your final destination or place that you think the treasure is at, is not at a dam.”

      ok. and you could replace Dam here with ‘man made structure’, and/or outhouse

  71. It is my opinion that the reason why nobody has found the treasure chest yet is because we have not paid enough attention to the first clue. Mr. Fenn thinks in very simple terms. We, on the other hand, try to make it as hard as we can. We should be looking at the first clue as simple as we can. Remember, Mr. Fenn advised us to give the poem to a kid.

    • RC-
      I have a different take on that. I believe that the reason it has not been found is because the folks who were near it did not look closely enough..if at all. Some who were near it must have been following the poem. Others, perhaps just tourists or hikers. Of those following the poem I suspect they missed it because it is so cleverly hidden. They are the reason it has not been found. They gave up to soon.
      For those not even close I agree that it is the earlier clues that were missed and not simply the chest’s hidey place.They were in the wrong places all together and got there by following the earlier clues to some other location entirely…like Tres Piedras…lol…Which is the only spot to my knowle(d)ge that Forrest publicly declared the treasure not to be.

      • Well the reason we did not find it the other two times is because when I saw a blaze how forrest would blaze a tree(it’s not a F either) I was like this is to easy there is no way that it can be hear but when I came back home last October from the search I really got to thinking that it is there cause the poem told me so. I will be back in a few weeks to do something in that area whether it be digging at night or pulling back a shrub or rocks. I’m so not Crazy I really Believe we were right there. Of course we all may feel that we have been so close to it. I will tell the clues the week of June 23. 🙂

        • Looking forward to hearing of your adventure. Best of luck to you Amy

          • Windsurfer
            Thank u
            My gosh I can’t wait to search again it will be soon and the last .
            How are u

      • ” … knowle(d)ge …”

        thank you for that clue Dal

        i am now reading your blog everyday looking for tidbits like this from you

        • Yikes Chris-
          Don’t look for clues in anything I write or you’ll end up in Moose Pie, Idaho like the last guy who thought I knew something.

      • My opinion is that no one has found it because no one has gone there. No one EVER goes there. People go to places close to it but never have reason to go a little further to where it actually is.

      • Remember his bones may not be found for a thousand years? If people are always going there that doesn’t seem likely. However people do go within 500 feet regularly. Hidden in plain sight just like the biggest clue of the poem.

    • I’mwith you RC. When FF starts talking about whose been close or figured out the first 2 clues we must also remember he also said he won’t give any real clues that help. So, not in Ut or Id helped some. Between 5k and 10 2 takes off some more area. It would be interesting to start a discussion about which clues do you think are most important. “Tight focus with a word that is key.” “Get out in the mnts and turn over a log.” In my mind most important has been scrapbook 62. I’m confident that 99.9% don’t have WWWH correct. Mine has changed. A lot.

      • Kyote,

        When you get it right you will know immediately…

        The simplicity of WWWH lies in it’s very complexity…I know that makes little sense, but the confusion factor of so many possibilities is what has kept many from finding the singular spot where the chest lies waiting…

        That plus trying to read hints and/or clues into every statement from Mr. Fenn…

        From what I see and read he has never misspoken concerning the hiding place of the chest…Every word true…but I could only see it this way after finding his secret hidden in the poem…It’s all in there, just needs ferreting out…

        Good luck…it is well hidden…and when discovered you will slap yourself up side the head and wonder, why didn’t I think of that and why did it take me so long?… 🙂


        • Okay Samsmith….now I KNOW were going to the same place….Do me a favor, since you are probably already on your way….leave me a note saying howdy, with a phone number or email….I will confirm I received it when I get back from my adventure. Oh, and how about leaving me a double eagle consolation prize?

          • MD/Sam: Well, I was thinking the same thing too, about my place in MT, so perhaps all 3 of us head there simultaneous-like and plan on a 33, 33, 33 , 1 split with the 1 going to Dal. 😉

        • samsmith, you mention somewhere, that you were in Newark Airport on 9-11, when the towers were hit. Do you live in NJ? I ask, because I lived in NJ until 1982 when I moved to Washington state.

  72. The reason why I would tell my clues is so that everyone will know I have searched that area and that it is my last adventure on the chase:)

    • Good luck Amy! If you don’t find the chest next to or in the area of that tree with that blaze, it doesn’t mean you don’t have the correct WWWH and HOB. It just means you couldn’t locate the correct blaze and a cleverly hidden 10x10x5 box. I wouldn’t rush and show your hand just yet.

      How far is your HOB from your WWWH again? I know you mentioned it before…..

      If you reveal your WWWH and HOB, I just want to make sure it’s not the same as mine.

      • Up
        Yes u are correct I shouldn’t be talking about my solve cause I may be completely wrong. I apologize
        My brown is 13 miles away from warm waters
        I think we are in different areas
        When is your search again

        • My HOB is just over 10 miles from my WWH, so yes, we have different areas.

          I was hoping to make it out this month. We have our 3rd son due this month, and a C-section is scheduled for the 23rd. But my wife seems like she could go at any moment, so I have decided to wait until after the birth. I will be heading out in mid to late July.

  73. From “Journal Of A Trapper”

    On a near approach we could hear the water bubbling under ground some distance from the surface. The sound of our footsteps over this place was like thumping over a hollow vessel of immense size. In many places were peaks from two to six feet high formed of limestone, deposited by the boiling water, which appeared of snowy whiteness. The water when cold is perfectly sweet except having a fresh limestone taste.

    After surveying these natural wonders for sometime, my comrade conducted me to what he called the “Hour Spring.” At this spring the first thing that attracts the attention is a hole about 15 inches in diameter in which the water is boiling slowly about 4 inches below the surface. At length it begins to boil and bubble violently and the water commences raising and shooting upwards until the column arises to the height of sixty feet. It falls to the ground in drops on a circle of about 30 feet in diameter being perfectly cold when it strikes the ground.

    It’s a good read anyway…

  74. I believe in a hybrid explanation. People evolved to be very good a pattern recognition. Unfortunately, they are also good at recognizing false patterns (the that’s why the face of the Virgin Mary shows up on so many tortillas). So the reason it hasn’t been found is that most people get hooked on a tortured rationalization of seemingly related “clues” that aren’t really related at all.

    I think Forrest made two separate statements: 1) Some people solved the first two clues (but were in the wrong place because they didn’t understand the whole poem), 2) non-searchers can routinely be within 500 feet due to the location. He said a complete solve will take to right to the stash so let’s believe him.

    I think if you have a workable solution it will take you to a very searchable area…not the three square miles that some folks say they have it “narrowed” to.

  75. “So to level the playing field to give everyone an equal chance I will say now that WWWH is not related to any dam. ff”

    ” Some things that seem simple to me can be so complicated for others. I think we should take another look at our definitions.”

    i used to think that partially reading AFTA then throwing it away was related to WWH but now i think it is not

    i used to think that reading 1/3 meant 1/3 of the poem path, but now i dont think so

    i used to think that HOB was part of the poem path but now i dont think so

    i used to think that WWH was the place you leave/say farewell but not anymore

    these are some of the clues but my definition was wrong. i think f may have been referring to people getting that wrong.

    one of the things i was doing was pairing stanzas, equating one thing talked about in one stanza with another. this is part of what gave me wrong definitions.

    i dont have a use for my pairing stanza theory at this point. it may be wrong completely. i am still keeping it on the side because, if it still has some validity, and maybe i need to pair them differently than i was, there is possible support for it from a Kismet related clue.

    i think i will be sharing a side clue related to Kismet i have found, but has not led me anywhere yet, but seems significant nonetheless.

    • Chris,
      The day you drop your original line of thinking is the day you become dangerous!
      The Wolf

    • I concur with The Wolf.

      I’m pretty sure that means the Earth’s magnetic field is about to flip, or something.

          • Yes, once. I have an idea that I think may explain why searchers may have been there before and not realized how close they were. The first stanza hints at it. When I went up there, it was my son that was the closest in our party, in my opinion. And if he had not whispered something to me and made me think, I would never have thought of it, I’m sure. What I’m talking about is the actual place the chest sits (in my opinion) and I’m going only off what my son told me as I have not laid eyes on it myself. I am having transportation problems at present but hope to have that resolved soon.

          • I can agree with that. What about the blaze? Can you think of one word to describe it that I would recognize and not give it away?

          • I’m sure we are very close in our area but I don’t recognize your blaze. I’ll keep looking for your posts since I think we are on the same track. Good luck to you!

          • Hi Crazy Family,
            I wish I knew how close to my area you are. You are making me nervous. When I said I had only been there once, I meant the end of my current solve, where I believe the treasure lies. As for WWWH and the put in spot, I have been there many times.

      • Lol I was wondering the same thing
        What does IMO mean I don’t do shorthand much 🙂

        • Amy, if you are curios about FWTBT, you may enjoy the original poem by John Donne or the lyrics to the Metallica song. (I’m not a Hemmingway fan) and the other 2 sources could offer insight. No man is an island; all humans are connected to one another; so each ones death affects all. The Metallica song is a treatice on war, perhaps VN. IMO

  76. It is my opinion that Mr. Fenn wrote the poem in such a way that it could be construed very differently than what it is in his mind. Everything is so simple to him. No nonsense kind of man. RC

  77. What would “Begin it where warm waters halt”, and “If you are brave, and in the wood?” have in common. For the end is the beginning, and the beginning is the end. Anybody? RC

    • Well , water halts when it goes uphill, or when it freezes, and in the wood suggests trees, so how about where they meet: the Tree Line ? Generally the tree line is also cold tundra, cold enough for glaciers. Only problem though is that the tree line in the Rockies can be quite high — there are conifers happily growing at/above 10,000 ft

      • Another suggested interpretation of “in the wood” is in the know about what’s important. Although, I tend to agree there will be undergrowth, a copse of trees or actually in wood (boardwalk, woodchips etc) Trying to work out the commonality between statements RC. I have some thoughts on how bravery plays in, but nothing concrete to marry the statements. Any thoughts?

        • Norwegian * It is my opinion that nobody has been able to find the treasure because everybody is looking at the end of the search, and nobody is looking at the beginning. To me it is logical that the treasure would be at the end of the rainbow, just like anybody out there, except Mr. Fenn. I would bet you he hid it at the beginning of the poem, and not the end. Everybody is going to the end, but has left the beginning intact. It is my opinion. RC

      • Or, maybe WWWH, is not ground water. Tears? Indian tears? Weeping rock? Maybe he just meant stop crying, and go down in the canyon! Be brave! 🙂

    • RC – Oh, that question is so tempting to answer. I will have to hold off for now.
      Nor – yes

      • Come on Slurbs! Don’t be shy. You can hint me about what those statements have in common. Hope you feel better! RC

        • RC, thanks for the well wishes. No hints just yet, sorry. Maybe there isn’t a connection. Some have been making statements along the lines of… if someone looks long enough and hard enough, they begin to see what they want to see and faill to recognize that there wasn’t anything to take notice of to begin with. What do you believe?

          • I believe that line has two meanings on its self, and in my opinion both meanings have something “in there” for us to look. RC

  78. “They never knew it was the chase they sought and not the quarry”. It is my opinion that he wants us to be actually looking for the chase, and not the quarry. We are so busy trying to decipher all the clues, and going places that we have been so busy looking for the chest, but in reality we are looking for the chase. For Mr. Fenn , I think, it is important for you to not only to get to your destination but also get to know where you start, and the journey.

    • I have some specific thoughts on the “quarry” and you are correct to say I don’t seek it. For me it’s not as much about the ‘chase’ as it is discovery. Life long thirst for understanding, including people. Solving the poem (even without any gold) would be satisfying to understanding Mr. Fenn, his altruism, bravery, etc.

        • would be hugely satisfying! and how are you tonight miss Amy? What state are you from?

          • I’m doing well thank u . I am from Texas. And I search Colorado .
            Where are u from

  79. @Slurbs – Haven’t heard from you in days Slurbs. checking to see how your shoulder is doing. You had also left your email publically on this site for Cynthia. Is it possible to email you at the abq….Hotmail address? Truly hope you are better.

    • Nor, my shoulder is doing much better. Only a little sore now. You may -mail me. I will reply. I never did get a response from Cynthia.

  80. Wwwh hast to be a huge starting point. A place that anyone can find 10,000 years from now – that will not change. Its not a random hot spring or where two rivers meet – its a place everyone knows – keep it simple stupid is the answer…… I go into the wood in sept -it will be my third trip – its a place at 7000 ft and matches F’s poem in a profound way – it even has links to the Bible – is F a religious man is my question because I found the bible link by mistake? If he is I’m kinda excited about it…..

    • He quotes Shakespeare, Hemingway, Salinger, the bible, Lewis Carroll, TS Eliott, & Einstein. I don’t know if he’s a bible man, but it’s clear to me he’s a book man.

        • Already had one very dangerous excursion earlier this spring! I’ll return to several MT and WY sites (I’m nursing 8 ‘solves’ now — ha!) early July with luck, or end of August if not. You?

    • Clayton – Define “religious man” for me and maybe I can help you out. Fenn did say he was spiritual in one interview.


      • Pam, Clayton, this is my opinion only** and I don’t know how ff views spiritual vs religious; IMO (and I consider myself spiritual) religion is more about man made rules about who God is and how to behave. If you truly love God then perhaps your spirit connects with God – caring about the relationship with God more than men’s rules about him. Of course, Mr. Fenns discourse here typically lends more towards literary. Just my thoughts.

  81. As a dog goes after its tail, does it realize that its beginning is just at its end? This is where the chase is and it’s a blast to be there.

    WWWH, it is the beginning and the end. Quite hard to find none the less.

    However, it does get easier once you know where. Then you must go in there. That is where im going. soon soon soon

  82. this is cynthia in Rio Rancho, NM…I don’t remember seeing a request to me from slurbs. I remember MichaelD offering his email address but no one else. Please repeat what you asked me, if I’m the correct cynthia (could be more than one), and I will reply. Thanks…

  83. DG how long you be on The Thrill Of The Chase? Just curious about something if you don’t mind me asking. 🙂

  84. Hi folks.

    This is my first-time post, but I’ve had one private response from Dal after sharing this info with him via email. Here’s my highest probable solution for wwwh. I have not seen it mentioned here or on any other blogs, but that just may be a limitation to my own search capability. My interpretations may be a little rough, but the starting point would seem to me to be clever enough to amuse Mr. Fenn. I have not looked, and I have no prospect of looking soon.

    Here is my proposal…

    wwwh: E.C. Waters abandoned steamer on Stevenson Island, Yellowstone Lake
    canyon down: follow the hull into the water
    too far to walk: wade, and it’s really cold
    home of brown: rust growing on the iron prop assembly
    meek: be brave, it’s really cold… so cold that rangers had to rescue a couple of stranded grizzly cubs in 2005
    no paddle: it was a steamship
    heavy loads, water high: 500 passengers… yeah, did I mention it’s really cold water?
    blaze: rangers burned this eyesore in 1931 to discourage the tomfoolery that was occurring, look for charred wood in the water
    in the wood: lots of remnant wood around that spot
    worth the cold: speaks for itself

    Sprinkled clues in the book:
    – Opening chapter, “Important Literature”, suggests Treasure Island, Robert Louis Stevenson, just as “Gold and More” suggests an island by reference of Gardiner Island and Captain Kidd.
    – “… helicopter looking thing” could hint at a reference of the remnant prop assembly.
    – While there is a clue of the treasure being “not associated with any structure”, it could be reasonably argued these remnants are no longer a structure which can sustain a load, has become unusable but nonetheless is now an archaeological site of interest.
    – Mentions of sliding down a rusted iron fire escape could hint at home of Brown being rust on iron.
    – Two other references about diving for treasure also exist in the book. I wouldn’t suggest literal underwater diving in Yellowstone Lake as I can’t imagine Mr. Fenn doing this. But if I were able, I would examine in the water, perhaps under the hull remnants, likely close to any charred wood that can be located.

    I used text mining techniques on the book to derive significant terms, coupled with “proximity clusters of map nodes plotted within a topological range” in searches with synonym combinations before getting to this point. I’m a math geek. I blogged a little about my search interests. I’ve examined literally hundreds of potential clusters, as I’ve read there are others who have probably visited just as many. This one, and only this one, got me excited. If it’s there, super, I can claim to be a deep-thinker. If not, apologies for wasting your time.

    Best of luck and please stay out of trouble. I take no responsibility for your behavior.


    • Round of applause for you E.C. Waters! or snaps from the sorority sisters on line 🙂 Wish I had your dynamic duo => puzzle solving + creativity. I have no idea what ‘text mining techniques’ are and would love to hear how that works.

      Don’t forget your Hip Waders!

    • Tried replying to this earlier, but it didn’t take…
      Suffice to say: I too had this thought, Mike, and the good news is your idea has already been checked (the bad being- I’m no richer ) — this was my first trip out, last year. I agree(d) too that it had a certain whimsy to it, and I bet the farm, even despite the fact that its VERY associated with a structure, it doesn’t justify Brown being capitalized, it’s not exposed to fires, and a half dozen other things friends pointed out to me 😉 – so confident was I. Then spent more than 2 days turning over every rock at the site, both in the water and on the beach, and checking between each and every beam (I even got the sonar/radar survey of the wreck and checked the capstan, which had been moved several hundred feet away ), and generally did a DG-worthy fine-tooth-comb <10" search grid – yet, I didn't find the chest there. On day 3 I would've been happy to even find a scrap of evidence. Ha! 🙂

      • Then this spring, I even refused to admit defeat entirely, and figured a way to make it work using the wreck as the start, and then the old caretaker cabin as the cache! (if you and I did the same research, you probably know the one I’m talking about) and so this icy spring, when I was out on a trip through Montana sites, we made a side trip down to YNP, and I did the very foolish/dangerous thing of crossing the ice and checking the cabin site too. So even risking ChfRangerReid’s wrath being in an offlimits area last year (apparently it’s illegal to be on the south half of the island May through August, for wildlife mating reasons), and digging with a pickaxe the permafrost this year (happily, that same day, the rangers were very busy at SloughCreek – 🙂 ), I still have no chest to show for it. Which is okay, there are still 8 great ideas on my ‘viable solves’ list 😉 I was still writing up report/story to share with Dal when I read your post and had to laugh.
        Come by Washington State sometime, and I’ll buy you a beer, you can share your math equation approach, and I’ll share my maps and national archive docs 😉

        • Map, have you photos of your attempts at Stevenson Island? And would you kindly share them?

          • Yes! a few decent ones ( though my recent winter trip I only have shots from shore/gull point — apparently the iPhone has a neat coldweather feature: it shuts down at below-freezing temperatures) 🙁 and so I couldn’t get shots of the cabin site!

    • Some people never imagine it, but there are all sorts of shipwrecks in the Rockies. Try looking up Custer’s gold sometime. 😀

  85. Just posted this over on SB73, but wanted it here as well because it it’ll be buried in five minutes on most recent posts.
    Seattle Sullivan mentioned the huge Los Alamos fire. I was wondering if the fire scar is still visible today. A thought ( new or not?) about WWWH possibly being at the edge of the fire scar – water applied to a forest fire would become warm.
    Also, ff started using the moniker Forrest Fire on this site. A possible clue? He also mentioned on SB 73 that life is quickly regenerating – as it would in a fire scar area. Not familiar with that burn site; why would a burn area be special to him? Don’t have a clue. Just curious as to comments.

    • The burn scar in LA is very visible. Right now, there is a whole lot of growth and life in the scar area. Though I am Red/Green colorblind, I can see that the scar area is very GREEN!

      • @mac & slrbs what the heck are you guys rambling about? I step out to dinner and everyone is shouting forest fire:-) Kidding! I’m always amazed at how a devastating fire fertilizes all and as fast as you can blink green is the dominant color. Amazing. What else did I miss tonight?

      • Thank you slurbs ( I crack up every time I read that name; reminds me of drooling. Sorry!) YOUR comment was quite helpful. As was GG’s on sb73. You other characters, well . . . . Never mind.

      • A hint as to where you might be going tomorrow? Sorry. You’re probably getting your beauty rest. Eager to hear of your adventures. Safe travels!

        • Surprises are great – that’s what treasure hunting is all about. I do need beauty rest. At my age I need all out war paint in the morning not to scare myself!
          Enjoy the weekend with your family!

        • Heading there now. After work… now, that’s a different story. I am very confident that I will have a very happy Father’s Day!

    • Mac,

      I might have something that might help you with your solve. In 1988 when FF was diagnosed with cancer, YNP has it’s largest Forrest Fire ever in the park. That might tie into rejuvenating…

    • I do not recall Forrest using that moniker, however I do not follow every word posted here. Can you reference where he used this?
      Would be so helpful if people did this. Often I see ppl post Forrest said this or that and later find out it was not true.
      This is not helpful at all, only servers to muddy the waters. 🙂

  86. Hi folks.

    I thought I’d submit another text-mined idea for fun of which I have not yet seen posted in this particular interpretation, although lots of people like the area. I visited this spot over Easter, tweeted about it @mikebibler. Hopefully this will inspire new thought.

    Tibia, a bone in one’s calf, has a Spanish meaning when paired with the word “agua”. “Agua tibia” translates to “warm water” in English.

    If one then begins it where warm waters halt using references of anatomy, one may go to the end of a tibia and find oneself at “The Knees” in the Sleeping Ute of Colorado, or at the spot I like very much, a lovely roadside pullout in YNP near West Entrance with a sign titled “TALUS” (44.64666, -110.93089). Talus is the Latin word for anklebone, but also has another meaning in geological terminology as “a sloping mass of rock fragments at the foot of a cliff.” This spot, by the way, is within the realm of Nine Mile Hole, which 9 miles is apparently too far to walk. Nine Mile Hole is also rumored to be a top-secret flywater location for Mr. Fenn, and TTOTC page 122 has a couple of photos of his father in the area, one specifically next to a large boulder at Nine Mile Hole. And someone here has mentioned talus as a potential clue for heavy loads.

    It would seem to me an amateur archaeologist and a YNP Nine Mile Hole fly fisherman might put these two together pretty quickly and feel rather clever.

    Good luck.


    • A lot of us have already looked their even though clues don’t match up. IMO its much easier then that and IMO literal based on geography – my only hint to my Sept search location….

      • Hi Clayton.

        That’s good feedback.

        People are reasonably skeptical that the Firehole convergence is the starting point, but here’s a potentially valid solution for the same area. Would you like to speculate on which clues do not fit, assuming you know what are the clues? I’d like to take a shot at having another look at your non-conforming clues.


      • Indeed. I wonder if the wooden Talus sign is itself the blaze, and the chest is beneath an embankment in the water. That would finish nicely to me with “worth the cold.”

        To the tibia, I am a worm.

  87. Has anyone ever thought that the printing of the words about the song “Stout Hearted Men” looks like the contours of the land on a map? Which are 80 ft apart on some maps.

  88. Something occurred to me the other day as I was thinking of wwwh. Seems all water is warm compared to those of the run off of glaciers. Ummm Montana was where Forrest and family lived at one time.

  89. Fenn spoiled my dam WWWH, so I quickly reversed by solve, which makes my WWWH a water tower, and the dam the Water High. Anyone out there come up with this logic? Anyone who had a dam as WWWH – send me the name – tsblack7@gmail.com, and I’ll tell you where the water tower is located – you may want to go back and search on the dam itself for the Blaze.

  90. A crazy angle that I regret-

    As I have gone alone in there = going alone to Vietnam, and his experiences there. Which lead me to the memorial in Angel Fire. Low and behold, there is a “fountain” where the water runs though the rocks and disappears before it pools in the rocks below – the water seems to halt and the rocks below are dry.

    I walked inside the visitor’s center and took a look around. I came across the library and entered. As i approached the “book” I began to weep. In fact, I had to turn around and did not reenter until I had regained my composure. My father was in Vietnam and lost those he loved. It was hard for me, even though i am a generation removed. I guess I cried because I remember my dad being gone in my younger years.

    Anyway, I walked over to the “book” and searched for those named Brown. I almost couldn’t do it because I felt guilty being there looking for clues among the dead.

    Even though I found many names, I did decide to leave. I knew Forrest would never make anyone do that. It was a bad experience for me. Perhaps this is what he meant by “meek”, but i wanted no part of it.


  91. Every time I think I have it all figured out I stumble over yet another possible dimension to consider . It really is good for our brains , isn’t it?

    While the poem may be straight forward, the background melody is very intricate. Its why I think of this as his opus. His swan song.

  92. “Where warm waters halt”
    I believe the confluence of the warm water Delores river, which has slowed to a trickle at this point, and the cold running San Miguel river is where warm waters halt. The San Miguel breathes new life to the Delores river, which is currently running fast and high. From here you can float down stream with tall canyons, and waters high in the form of a water flume constructed in the early 1890’s. So start your quest in the former town site of Uravan, Colorado. The treasure is somewhere down canyon “not far but to far to walk.” I say try a raft or a canoe…
    You can get all the supplies you need in Naturita, which is about 15 miles south of the confluence. Be sure to stop at the visitor center in Naturita and say hello to the girls. The hold heavy loads of information.

  93. New Mexico refers to “warm waters” as legal areas to fish in. This is the definition of it in the New Mexico fishing rules from 2013.

    “General Information
    Warm waters include all streams, lakes, and ponds, except those designated as trout waters (pages 24–25, 31). ”
    So it isn’t referring to the temperature of the water or species or anything like that. Wasn’t Fenn a fisherman too? Correct me if I am wrong. There are multiple different areas where “warm waters halt” and trout waters begin. This is what I know so far. What do you guys think?

    • That is exactly how I started my thrill of chasing! It has taken me to far places!

  94. There are so many ideas that are good for WWWH, and all of the poem, which is what makes finding the treasure so hard. I have seen so many people “sure” and have not heard news of the discovery yet. I can see how WWWH can be the continental divide, where water freezes, the sinks near Lander and others mentoned. Instead of giving a different location for one of those ideas, I will try an idea that I did not see mentioned above. I’m not going to be cryptic and say how I have a place in mind, but just share and if it does lead to the clue then great, I can’t wait to see the entire solution once someone has it.
    So to try something different, what if Where warm waters halt was refering to something like Warm Springs Station. It’s a pony express station, where they would go alone. The word halt also goes particularly well with horses.

    The history of Warm Springs Station on the wyoming Places map says “Up a kanyon of the Sweetwater. Ford the river 5 times, making a total of 8. After 16 miles, “Ice Springs” in a swampy valley, and one quarter of a mile beyond “Warm Springs.” Then rough descent and waterless stretch. Descend by “Lander’s Cut-off” into fertile bottom. “Rocky Ridge Station;” at Muskrat Creek good cold spring, grass, and sage fuel.””(quoted from Sir Richard Burton’s 1860 trip)

    I could make some of that fit: rough descent = canyon down
    Lander’s cut-off = Lander was Camp Brown, although 10 years after Burton’s trip
    waterless stetch = no paddle
    ice springs or good cold spring would fit “worth the cold.”
    I have seen where people equate wise with sage = sage fuel
    Someone above put a quote from the trapper book that mentioned sweet water (the name of the river that is in the area) and trappers used to delouse in the warm springs near the station.

    Each station is 12 miles apart. Too far to walk, by 2 miles- but he says near the end( it was a Home Station, so near the end of journey), so 10 miles would put you right on Rocky Ridge, which would be a good place to look down.

    They would have had postmarks for the stations. I haven’t bought the book yet as I started ooking at this today, but I heard there are a lot of postmarks in it.

    Rocky Ridge/St Mary’s station was made a garrisoned depot during the civil war, which could be the heavy load. It was burned down by 150 Cheyenne and Arapaho. “The station was rebuilt, but nothing remains except old square-cut nails, melted glass, broken pottery, and pieces of telegraph insulators”. I do know Forrest was fond of pottery.

    Other parts don’t fit and I don’t know how that area would be significant to him. Just throwing one more idea out there for people to consider/chase.

  95. IMHO…in order to find wwwh…you first must figure out…”what” wwh…then figure out where to begin.

  96. It has always been my belief that Manby Hot Springs has been WWWH. Now, I am beginning to doubt myself. May be WWWH has nothing to do with water at all. It is my humble opinion that Mr. Fenn real intention is for us to go search for the treasure, but in reality most of us are searching for the chase. I do not think that the treasure is in the forest like we would like to believe. I really think the treasure chest is relatively easy to get to. I do not think it would take more than 20 minutes to find it once you get out of your car. It just seems to be difficult to find it because of how the poem is worded. Good luck in the chase, and please do not look in Manby Hot Springs because I think it is there, somewhere.

  97. Maybe WWWH is not where, but when. If WWWH is a spring then it is too far to walk because instead of walking you are jumping. Not far, but too far to walk.

  98. Warm waters halt. It’s so hard to figure that out because that’s where u Begin. Hmmm let’s see maybe we should think inside the box instead of outside the box
    But it’s still a hard one to figure out
    There are so many Hotsprings which one could u possibly choose to be the right one hmmm let’s see
    NONE 🙂 lol

    • All waters are warm. When thinking of “water” one should ask, what is water? All waters are liquid or warm waters. Water changes to vapor @ 212 degrees and turns solid @ 32 degrees.

      If your looking for simple and logical warm water[s] halt maybe it’s not a place.

      I see so many trying to put a physical place to WWWH, even matching names of places that are called Hot spring something or warm lake something… I could not even count how many bodies of waters, creeks and rivers that have these type of names, might as well throw a dart at the map and see what may come.

      It might just be, that WWWH is not a place at all. The same for canyon… what is a canyon? Simple terms, a lower level area with shear sides. Sounds like a description of any street in a city. Tall shear walls of the buildings overlooking a lower level street between them. What else can fit this design?

      Or maybe it’s just Canyon RD. we need to travel down. Can’t be too many of them, right?

      just food for thought.

  99. I feel very comfortable with my WWWH….
    Two streams that Forrest spends a great deal of time telling stories about are very warm streams. Perhaps the warmest in Yellowstone. The Firehole and the Gibbon….
    Interestingly both those streams end…halt at exactly the same place. They come to a definite stop, both the Firehole and the Gibbon..at Madison Junction.
    Where warm waters halt = Madison Junction (in my opinion)
    Two rivers stop…ie waters (plural)

    It seems to me that these two rivers are likely to continue halting at this spot as long as the Park Service owns that chunk of land…a hundred years from now..yes…a thousand years from now…maybe…

    This is purely a naming issue..
    The namers decided that the Gibbon and the Firehole end at that spot and a new river starts at that spot..
    They could have just as easily had the Gibbon join the Firehole and have the Firehole continue on down…
    But they didn’t..
    And this is good Fenn logic as far as I am concerned…

    Interestingly a new river starts up at this point…the Madison River…and in Forrest’s latest book he tells us that from where he once put in with his raft and walked the Madison for more than a day is a distance too far to walk for him today…

    So for those who like to think about what Forrest tells us and whether he feeds us clues…this looks pretty interesting…

    However..if you don’t like heading downstream on the Madison from WWWH at Madison Junction there is another possibility..
    If you go down, as in south, you head “down” the Firehole…and go too far to walk…

    By the way…I have an HOB in each direction.

    I still do not have a chest in either direction but I am working on that part… 🙂

    • I think Forrest is brilliant. As I have gone alone in there and with my treasures bold. He takes his treasure with him into a hot spring where many people soak. Right there in his suitcase man is that BOLD. No wonder he laughed.

      • ed-
        Nothing to do with any of the thousands of individual hot springs, mud holes, steam vents, geysers or anything else even remotely associated in my search..

    • Hi Dal, good luck searching. Is it cold in YP? We can’t sesrch again now but If you are on the Madison River have you thought about Helmut Mountain near Camron? On Google Earth it looks just like a reddish brown Mohawk that the Crow Indians wore. An amazing blaze with a canyon but we ran out of time to search there.

    • So did the waitress (diggin gypsy in disguise) slip you a truth drug at supper? Or are you convinced the rest of the clues are so hard it doesn’t matter if we know what WWWH is.

      • lol Goof-
        It’s true I think it’s very hard after HOB…but this solution is only an opinion and just as unlikely to be correct as anyone else’s. But I thought folks would like to hear from someone who thinks the poem is a map…still a puzzle but generally a set of directions that can be followed to the chest…
        I firmly believe that the words in the poem are clear…the directions are clear…Trying to see what he saw is a definite challenge…not easy…
        But to me, more likely than looking for secret meanings in word or letter arrangements..

        • I agree poem is a map, but what a sly fox making so many areas fit. Anagrsm I don’t like that idea either. Straight forward.

          • ed-
            And then stay with all the clues til the end..apparently it is quite easy to fall off the clues even if you have the start correct…
            It helps to be stubborn and to believe in your starting point and to be able to go back to your starting point and try …and try again…
            Try to think like Forrest..imagine what he saw…not what you see…
            I’m not trying to be cryptic but it’s a very malleable and subjective process…and it can help if you understand what motivates Forrest..of course..this is all just my opinion…everybody’s got one..

        • So, the first two clues are WWWH (Madison Junction) and the home of Brown. These are the two clues Fenn talks about folks solving but going right past the other seven. Care to mention your home of Brown before the truth drug wears off?

          Yeah, obviously I can’t say if the code breakers are right or not. But I am sure if that is what it takes to figure out the poem, it won’t be me that does it. My brain just doesn’t work that way…….I’m not smart enough to keep up.

          • Goof-
            My HOB’s, this week,in both cases are Mr. Brown. Different folks and property they once claimed..
            But I have used different HOBs.
            They led me nowhere near a blaze that I could identify…
            There is always the haunting belief that I missed something when moving from any HOB..
            So..when I finish with these I will probably try one of the others again..
            Then there is my own opinion about what is most likely..
            I have to fight that…constantly…
            Pretend to be one with Forrest and not with dal…..lol…

          • I agree, don’t miss what’s right in front of us. It’s there we just can’t see it. Like a sniper or a fawn, you walk right past them and never know they were there. What wisdom is required to see the blaze.

            I also agree with you about Fenn, but it’s a difficult task to figure out a guy whose favorite saying is “It doesn’t matter who you are, it only matters who they think you are”.

        • Dal,…I think Forrest once said that if you knew where HOB is you could just go right to it. I can’t remember where he said it, but it’s in my memory bank somewhere.

  100. I am back to a question that I asked right at the onset of when I first heard about forrest’s treasure a long while back….and that is….is it in water or not? I find it interesting that forrrest has stated that he would rather not answer that question yet……its interesting because if he said no….then it would still be such a huge search area that it wouldn’t change much as far as looking for it….BUT….if the answer is yes…..well, that is definitely a game changer…..I just keep coming back to this question in my mind….

    • I had at one point thought it was, but not sure now. How would a person know? I’m very cynical myself. Too many possibilities.. I just don’t see the poem getting a person there.

    • Jes,

      If you took a poll here, you’ll probably get a 90% vote that it’s not in water.

      Let the voting begin.

    • I don’t think it is in water because rivers and creeks are bound to be flooded and who would want all that gold being washed away…not ff.

    • If One is to believe Fenn’s statements, the the answer should be , no water. Paraphrasing.. Fenn said, Should I ever get seriously ill, I may still throw myself on the chest. Again not the exact words, but you get the gist. this was followed by, That would be my boldest move yet. I’m sure the exact quotes is floating somewhere amongst the pages of this blog.

  101. Water is doubtful if it can be scorched by fire. Some have said no water involved and I think I know why some say that.

  102. IN MY OPINION, we seem to be missing something. How can you find a specific spot just by WWWH? What is the missing link here? It has to mean something other than water or warm water. Could it be meaning land borders?

    I also find it funny that it says begin it where warm waters halt “AND” take it in the canyon down. That “and” word leads me to believe that whatever this is it stops and it goes in the canyon down. How can something stop and go into the canyon? What could stop and go into the canyon at the same time?

    If he were referring to us going into the canyon down he would have worded it differently I would think. Some may say because he says “begin it” that would imply for us to then take it in the canyon down as direction, but I think the word “where” as in begin it “where” is implying that you start where warm waters halt and goes into the canyon down. He’s telling us where wwwh and take it in the canyon down is where to start. Do you all get what I am saying? I know it’s confusing.

    • Bob,

      Yep, confusing to say the least. The fact that your looking at what a word can mean to a line or sentence in the poem is always a good Idea. For example: where, can be a place… as well as, a time. Same as there, example; let me take you there… Even though it sounds as if it is present tense, as in follow me… it can be past tense as well, as in let me take you back in time.

      So can the line “as I have gone alone in there, mean a different time? is WWWH someplace to start? possible, but ask when are you starting. can ” Not far, but to far to walk reference distance? sure. Can it reference Not far back in time, but just can walk through time? I would not consider all the poem to be Physical places one can travel to. Just mu opinion.

      Just another way of looking at the poem.

      • Seeker, I really liked the idea of the poem using an old map or knowledge of history. Or even each clue is in a different time period, a history lesson so to speak. But Fenn said this on Jenny Kile’s site; do you think it rules that out?

        Q: Mr. Fenn, Is there any level of knowledge of US history that is required to properly interpret the clues in your poem. ~Steve R

        A: No Steve R,
        The only requirement is that you figure out what the clues mean. But a comprehensive knowledge of geography might help.

        That statement takes me back to the topo maps. What do you think?

        • Goofy,
          That is one thing I like about you… You always keep me on my toes and make me think, Nothing wrong with a boot in the umm errr good intentions.

          For some time now, as I feel I have a solve worthy of a search now, I have gone over as many of fenn’s, “after the fact” comments. The one you bring up, for me personally, sounds like a bit like, avoiding the actual question and giving some kind of answer to suffice. Fenn even stated this himself [Paraphrasing] He’ll answer a question, because someone ask a question and they feel they should have an answer.

          The other factor about this question was “knowledge US history”. Is knowledge of Geographical anything, history? Anything can be history depending on ones view. But the fact the Fenn used the term knowledge geography does IMO refer to those kinda maps.

          I’m not sure if any of the “after the fact statements” are any help, hints, clues, But I do find them interesting as how to interpret them.
          Example; the two trips from the car to the hide in one afternoon… is this a simple reply to a question? Is he hinting that it was done during the day time? or Hinting a math word problem. John doe walks 2mph from point A to Point be, and repeats this twice in a 6hr time period, How far did john walk? this implies 1trip up, 1 trip back, 1 trip up and 1 back again.

          Another way of looking at is… he stated he made “two trips from the car to the hide”. Do we now eliminate the time and distance of the last return trip from the hide to the car from our math problem. as well as, eliminate day time or in an afternoon… and just use a time span of 1/4 of a 24hr period.

          I know my comment may have not answered your question, as to the fact, I’m still trying to understand fenn’s comments myself. But IMO, to answer your question the best I can, Yes, a topo map. Sorry for the long reply.

          • Goofy,

            Edit: I neglected to attempt to answer your 1st question…Seeker, I really liked the idea of the poem using an old map or knowledge of history. Or even each clue is in a different time period, a history lesson so to speak. But Fenn said this on Jenny Kile’s site; do you think it rules that out?

            I got tied up on the map thing, sorry. Like I said though, I think it was an end run answer to the actual question, maybe for the fact it would give too much away, IMO. History to me is what we know of to date, as well as, what make us different from all other Animals, the willingness and curiosity of wanting to know. History or maybe a better term would be Events of the past, is very important to the poem IMO>

          • Seeker,

            I agree with you on the EVENTS (history) of the poem. Fenn’s interests are many, but he seems to favor history the most. Practically everything he shares with us is in someway related to history. IMO that means his mind is jammed packed with historical events, some obvious to people, and some not so much. Mind you, this is a man who has experienced a lot in his lifetime. Something most of us can’t even fathom.

            Since he put 15 years into the making of this poem, he would have drawn on those things he knows to best. It would probably be history first and archeology second. Or, possibly the other way around. We’ll probably never be able to learn which. Never the less, he would want his quest to not be a simple game of checkers, by one devised by a Chess Master. At least, that’s the way I’ve always expected it to be.

          • Germanguy, aha! You’ve just hit on the timing as to when the treasure chest will be found. Mr. Fenn does everything in 15 year increments…and, well we’re only four years into the search. I may just enjoy a girls trip this time and see if my brain capacity expands with time. He’s having too much fun playing chess on multiple boards in multiple states – of mind and place. 🙂

          • Thanks for the response Seeker……I like reading your perspective on things. Sometimes I agree with you, sometimes I don’t, but I always find your take on things interesting and well thought out.

            I agree with you about reading too much into what Fenn says. I think most of what he says won’t help with solving the poem; but I do find what he says to be entertaining or interesting and enjoy listening to or reading his comments and articles. I do give more weight to what he writes vs. what he says. But some things I take as point blank; not in Utah means it’s not in Utah for example. Many people said, “Well duh, everyone knows it’s not in Utah”, but I really wanted it to be in Utah.

            So now I’m having trouble with, and am perplexed by, his history statement because I wanted the solve to have a historical element. I even have one solution where each clue was in a different time and most of them didn’t show up on other maps. The last map had most of the clues but not where begin.

            Thanks for your edit on the history question (I just read it). That is interesting and giving me hope I can cram history in the solution somehow. I understand, and agree with you that technically everything we know is history. I really want history to be involved in the solution, but I have to fight not forcing what I want him to say on to what he really said.

            Steve’s question was, “Is there any level of knowledge of US history that is required…” Fenn’s answer was, “No…” This sounds like I could take someone with no knowledge of US history (a recent graduate for example) and give them my collection of topo maps and the poem and they could find the treasure.

            This is really giving me heartburn over my solutions that require historical knowledge to interpret the clues. Oh well, I’m going to have to find the chest soon just to break even from buying Rolaids. 🙂

        • Goofy,

          I’m not like some, that hang on to every word fenn says as a clue or wanna be clue. But I have noticed that, even with this answer that “seems” to be a direct No. Is he talking about “US” history? is it a play on words?, is it Spanish history, or Native American history or history before the US began?.

          The “question” IMO, was too direct.

          As well as, Geography simply means the “study” of the Earth. I could argue that this is history as well. Is study and history similar? depends on the discussion i guess. The Rocky Mountains are a geographical area changing all the time, is it not a part of history of some sorts ?

          There is little doubt in my mind that past Events [ call them what you will ] historical, geographical, geological, human history, etc. play a major factor in the solve. IMO.

          This Q&A reminds me of … I never said it was buried… I never said it’s not.

          Honestly I’m just as confused as everyone else.

          • You’ve helped me a lot with this Seeker, I appreciate that.

            I agree the question may have been too direct. The question was is knowledge of “U.S. history required”; he said “no” it’s not required.

            He didn’t say that knowledge of history would be of no help. Or like you said some history other than “US history”. I’m good with that.

            Now if you can get Utah included I’ll gas up the truck. 🙂

          • Not to add to the confusion but I would like to point out something. Forrest said “The only requirement is that you figure out what the clues mean. But a comprehensive knowledge of geography might help.” Now go to Wiki and look up geography. There is people geography, animal geography, etc. Are these part of comprehensive?

        • That’s Great, I’m Glad my last braincell is still working and can, at times, be useful. I’ll send you a bill for services rendered. One gold coin should do it.

        • Goofy,
          I agree. A topo map or satellite map will be with my on my next (postponed due to weather) visit to the Rocky Mountains.

    • Bob,

      IMO Seeker has a good idea as far as what the words may or may not be saying…There are different ways to interpret the who, what, when, where, why, or how of the different lines of the poem…This is as you say a great confusion factor…

      How to get them all to work together for a comprehensive and cohesive solution to this poem is the great mystery of the Chase…

      There are even ways to read the lines that dispel the idea that the references to natural landscape features mean what they appear to and are nothing more than obfuscation, distraction, or misdirection…Some may be metaphor and others may mean nothing at all and of little value in obtaining a solution…

      IMO as far as WWWH is concerned I can think of one and ONLY one place that is not an arbitrary guess but a singular and indisputable reality…I cannot say if another may have discovered it yet so I refuse to disclose it publicly for now…It is important to my solution that I keep it veiled as long as possible…

      I share with Seeker similar ideas that not all places referred to in the poem may be visible upon the landscape…And his reference to “Not far, but too far to walk” as being either a distance or a period of time can also be interpreted as – not traveling or standing still – in either time or space, or both for that matter…

      As far as missing something, yes, I think so for most…Even Dal expressed that sentiment not too long ago on here…I believe it will be a slap yourself in the forehead moment for many when it is known…Just my opinion…


    • Something Forrest said in a video at the bookstore was “The poem looks like just simple words there but I guarantee you I worked on that thing, I felt like an architect drawing that poem.” This tells me that the poem had to have certain letters or words in exact spots to maybe build a map with. The choice of words he used sort of reinforces this but it’s just my opinion.

      • Peter, agreed.

        Yep not just what word to use , but the placement of the words. The Blaze might just be white after all.

  103. Bob, I can think of one application, and it refers to mining. Warm waters halt in holding ponds where water is used to cool and process ores mined. but the chemicals used to extract or process the ore may still be leaching into the streams in the canyon downstream. Also, the ore minded would be taken down the canyon by truck. So, in my scenario I would need to find a mining organization 3w or u. At their property boundary could find Halt signage denoting danger. Make sense? I’ve held to the notion that Germanguy and Michael D knew what they referred to. But everytime it’s brought up, it’s shot back down stating Forrest Fenn encouraged families to enjoy this quest, and certainly he wouldn’t want kids near ur mines.

    • I can see where you come to that conclusion but in my opinion it seems to dangerous to put the chest in a mine or in a cave for that matter. but hey you never know!

      • Bob and 42 –


        Take it in the canyon down

        It = map

        Where = you have look at the right map

        It doesn’t mean you have to be there to find it.

        I don’t think he placed it in a mine or cave either – but at this point in the poem – you are too far to walk from the end.

        And I believe there is more than one mine involved – but just as hints.

        • inthechaseto – i’ve got maps enough to wallpaper your home and mine too. I begin all my search efforts on a good map or two, but getting mining info is near impossible. seems the mines don’t like us to know where they are, or any info about them. It’s not only too far to walk, but may be too cold as well. two days of searching for janie and annie, after that we’re enjoying ourselves and sightseeing, or sighting in our bebe guns using our maps as targets! ha! Dal or Diggin will have to find Mr. Fenn’s golden treasures. At some point, you’re just done in, even if your attitude still wants to slide into the finish.

  104. I do not think is where warm waters halt where one starts, but begin it where warm waters halt. There is a difference about how to interpret different lines if you change, or eve omit a word. Begin it to me is a big clue on itself because one cannot interpret the rest of the poem if you say only “where warm waters halt”.My opinion. RC

  105. Goofy, it’s a good question about the requirement of history. FF chose to answer with “No. The only requirement is that….”

    I agree with Seeker that this is an end around to Steve R’s question. FF said it’s not a requirement which doesn’t mean it’s not a good idea. Heck, a comprehensive knowledge of history MIGHT help.

    FF answering that most places the clues refer to where around when he was a kid brings history into that answer. So FF has brought history into this outside of the poem. It’s not history that would make a history book but it’s his history.

    • Fun,

      I always like it when someone agrees with me, My ego just elevated a couple notches.

      Here’s another fun part about that answer, ” The only requirement is that you figure out what the clues mean.”

      “Clues Mean”? aren’t we all looking for what they “Are”? I mean IF the clues are direction to physical places that is. So are the meanings to the clues Physical or not. Yep, this might be a little nitpicken, but it’s, the things that make you go…Hmmmmm, that are interesting.

  106. If i ever find the treasure then i want it to be known it was because of the Home of Brown. i figured out everything else, including WWH, off of that

  107. If you started at the hob then you may not have the right wwwh….. are you 100 % sure on your wwwh ? I have heard so many locations for wwwh. makes me wonder if ours match…lol

    my findings…

    wwwh 100%

    canyon down 100%

    tftw 100 %

    hob 100%

    etc….. I’m at the blaze now…. got basics… working on it..

    good luck to you chris

    • Forrest said we need to know where to start

      he hasnt said it needs to be the first clue you solve

      so i think he means you need to know where you start the journey

      he has said you can figure out WWH off of HOB, reverse engineer it

      WWH would still be where the journey begins,like the poem says, irregardless of the order you figure out the clues

      i am 100 percent certain on the Blaze and HOB. on WWH, not so much but due to it being in the vicinity of the other 2, i think it has to be right

      Forrest i think has said WWH is the most difficult clue to solve. i can see why and that make solving the clues around it a great help

  108. Forrest has said look at the big picture. That is a warning not to get tunnel vision and i’m not talking trains… being creative in any and all ways is key. Just a few hints from through my looking glasses. Good luck and stay hydrated take plenty of water. 🙂

    • Dal –

      I love that – Made me think of a FLW house. Simply beautiful, with restraint, and straight forward. Have Fun on your journey !

      • RC-
        Still out…
        Lots of rain today…
        No time between Ark building to look for chest..
        No predicted change tomorrow.
        I may be done…
        In which case chest is still available for someone else to locate..

      • I see that is good news, Dal. It is still available. 🙂

        Appreciated the “Off Topic” point. Logic “IS” still important. Just wish my brain could assimilate the facts more quickly.

    • That’s interesting, he says, “I give people no time at all to solve big problems.”

      Then again, every problem is quick and easy with unlimited resources. Have a flat–>Get a new truck…problem solved.

      So who’s going to send Mr. Smarty Pants the poem……..he’s got 30 seconds. 🙂

    • Just watched it….then saw its from 2012. Wonder if he was intentionally capitalizing on the thrill of the chase. If so I guess he’s a smart man!

  109. here is my 2 cents: My take on WWWH is one of 2 things. (1) A place where I find joy and my tears of grief stop and I find peace. (2) An altitude where it does not rain but snows year round. Think about all of the clues, both ideals fit nicely.

    So hopefully if someone manages to find the chest they will remember this ole armchair treasure hunter an toss a token of appreciation

  110. Just for fun:

    begin it where warm waters halt, head out to ice cream parlor.
    Take it in the canyon down, order a banana split.
    Put in below the home of brown, Shove spoon below the chocolate syrup and scoop up some fruit & nuts.

    There’ll be no paddle up your creek, omg I am too full to eat it all.
    If you are wise and in the wood, heck where is the outhouse?
    Look quickly down your quest to cease. Shoot where is the tiddy paper?

    🙂 Happy hunting.

  111. It occurred to me that where warm waters halt might refer to the ice age. Meek is a type a mollusk fossil from eocene new mexico. Sandoval county. If “it” refers to time, Where do you find time? I’m thinking you don’t find time, you make it. There have been 5 great ice ages, we ‘re actually in the latest one now, the pleistocene, next one should start in another 1000 years…just some ramblings of a mad woman.

    • Actually, you are mixing terms – we are STILL in a great ice age. The current “interglacial” period is just a short (10-15,000 yr) warming cycle within the greater “ice age”. The next “glacial” period could begin within the 1000 years you mention, but we would still be in the same” Ice Age” as we were 12,000 years ago. Through numerous proxy data – ice cores, tree rings, etc. the last 4 or 5 interglacials – spanning over 600,000 years – are part of a regular cycle – including our current one. I like you’re thinking outside the box, though. Just need to make this a place to “Begin”

  112. Starting over.

    We have been told that WWWH is the most difficult to figure out. A few have the first 2 clues correct [assuming WWWH is one of them]. We have been told there are many warm waters halt in the Rocky Mountains and most are north of Santa Fe. We know WWWH is not a Dam. Been said, we need to know WWWH to figure out the poem. We also know that not all the clues existed when the Author was a kid. [Paraphrasing].

    I have read many ideas on WWWH and noticed most WWWH are in a small region [compared to the know search area]. Is the statement… there are many WWWH… telling us that it’s a much larger region? possibly an area that covers most of the Rocky Mountains.
    Could all the many WWWH, most north of Santa Fe be connected?
    And could WWWH be reference to something that may no longer exist?
    Or just the opposite, something that is more resent, since the time the Author was younger?

    • Seeker – I will add from the knowledge base that if all you have is BIWWWH and somewhere in the mountains north of Santa Fe as clues, “you cannot proceed with confidence.” So what are the implications of that statement?

      Sounds to me like more “ingredients” are needed to bake this “cake”… just as f said.

      So what ingredients? Hmmm… Hints in the book? “A word that is key”? Something else in the poem?

      Maybe this really is “not easy” and will take the “right combination of cunning and perseverance.”

      Some have figured out the first two clues, and I strongly suspect more than just the first two; but f is not talking about it (I suspect he doesn’t want to confirm what they may be getting right – they will have to “earn it” without any confirmations). And then there are those who arrived and had no clue of where they were.

  113. In the beginning there was chest filled with treasures new and old…
    As I recall Forrest has stated That all one needs is the poem.
    So here is a starting point. Sitting here thinking about some of the things Forrest has said I am starting to get a mental picture, it is still a little fuzzy. But no painting is finished until the artist lays down the brush.

  114. JCM,

    Ingredient, instructions, formula are some word use to interpret the poem. And the book holds “unintentional subtle hints” – if you know what to look for. All this is great… But lets get down to nitytgritty, Is warm waters halt a single entity? a small area? a large area? What in the poem lets the reader understand WWWH is correct or at the very least a good idea or is WWWH just a hit and miss?

    If by fenn’s statement there are many WWH and most North of SF… are we to think of all as one or start at each one. [ assuming we know what warm waters actually is ]. The idea of knowing what warm waters is, is about knowing how to interpret the poem correctly, for me is not so much a location as it is a meaning.


    A searcher once ask… “Lets assume…” in short , If the poem was handed to you in the far future, by your great grand father…No book, just a piece of paper with the poem, No fenn’s comment… statements… or even knowledge of the man, No hints of above 5000’… No structure… Not knowing the chest is hidden in the Rocky Mountain, No information at all, but the poem… can the exact spot the chest lays in wait be found just with the poem?

    This line of thinking I have used since day one. So would it not be reasonable to say WWWH needs to have some indication or in combination with other parts of the poem …to know what it means? Other wise, one would just be guessing what it is. or throwing a dart at a map.

    So why is it that Warm waters Halt is so important to the understanding of the poem?

    Just trying to look at the poem with a fresh set of eye………..

    • Seeker I’ve thought about this a lot. My opinion is this. I do think someone could solve the poem without the book but it would be very difficult as the “hints” are extremely helpful. The starting point is hinted at in the poem…as you follow the poem like a map into the canyon, HOB etc…the clues proceeding WWWH confirm your starting point as correct. I don’t think there is anything encoded in the poem that tells you start here (concrete) other than like I said a hint at where to start and then clues confirming as you go.

    • Seeker, Ed and Chad, I just came across your comments here on this older thread, and I am in total agreement with your thought processes. My WWH meaning came to me when reading about The Lewis and Clark Expedition. I came across a passage that struck me as what it could possibly mean… And the word “halt” was commonly used in their journals, so that concept has always been my meaning or interpretation of WWWH. Oddly enough, I did find a physical location for WWH in relation to this passage. It has both geographic and metaphoric meaning and from what I’ve just described, can be utilized in one’s thought processes from there on out. 🙂

      • Ahhhh well done. cudos. If you find the chest, toss this ole armchair treasure hunter a wee bit of gold. Nothing special. Just a small token to say thanks.
        It would be something I would treasure till my end of days.

        • Don’t be holding your breath, Chad… f said the chest may not be found for a thousand years! 🙂

          • He did also say he’d love it to be found tomorrow… It seems as if he used that word a lot in the past day or two…

          • I have a few ideals about the general area where the chest is hidden. I have passed these ideals along to someone I really trust. Hopefully he will see what I have seen and connext the dots.

  115. Seeker, Forrest has stated that the poem was constructed by an architect.
    Keep that in mind when looking at the poem.

    • Yep, I have seen most of his comments. That particular one was at a book signing in Santa Fe. 15 years of writing and re-writing the poem says to me IMO there is more to the poem than just words, phrases and meanings.

      So what do you see when looking at the poem through an Architects state of mind?

      • Walls, rooms and stairs 🙂 Complexity concealed with simplicity. Have you ever sat down and drawn up a dog house? ( as an example )

    • architect:
      a person who designs buildings and in many cases also supervises their construction.
      synonyms…. designer, planner, draftsman

      He did say in one of the scrapbooks he is mostly a supervisor these days whatever that means.

    • Forrest made a statement regarding this, atm my brain is no retrieving the statement. Maybe someone else recalls it?

      • You mean “don’t mess with my Poem” but he could say that and really mean for you to… with him you never know…

        • Spallies,

          Right. Don’t change the poem, but that does not mean the poem can’t be read slightly different then presented. The don’t mess with my poem comment was said IMO don’t change, move, switch the way the poem was written. I can think of a reasons for that.

      • He said you would not find yourself switching back if you follow the clues. Yes I agree Michelle the clues are not in order but once you figure out that one clue that isn’t in order it becomes handy later on.

      • The statement where f said that the poem contains 9 clues and the clues are in consecutive order?

        People really should listen to what f says or spend some time doing some research and figuring out what he has actually said.

          • I’m laughing because obviously Forrest has thrown a curve ball here. The first clue is As I have gone alone in there but the starting point is WWWH. Consecutive order is debatable if your going to say you locate it on a map first then maybe. I have a problem with that statement.

          • All care about is ” Precisely” which can mean the Clues from the many hints, follow the meaning / theme of the poem.

            Precisely: dead, exact…. seems there is a lot of reference to dead. I wonder if WWWH has a reference as well?

          • Thank you Goofy. 🙂 I am also pretty sure he said contiguous. I think it was at a book signing. I will keep looking for it.

          • Deb – here is the contiguous reference…

            Forrest, did you have 9 clues before you wrote the poem or did nine clues appear after you wrote the poem?

            They’re contiguous. I knew where I wanted to hide the treasure chest so it was easy for me to put one foot down and then step on it to get to the next foot, that’s what I did.

            9 clues in the poem… Contiguous… Found when putting one foot down at a time to get to the spot.

          • Thank you JCM. I knew I had heard it somewhere. Was hoping it wasnt a mental pause moment.lol

  116. Looking in some fishing books, the is a list of warm water streams and rivers and cold water streams and rivers. The general definition is that warm water rivers are below 5000 feet elevation. Which would make most streams in the mountains cold water. So, saying begin WWWH becomes like saying it’s in the mountains north of Santa Fe. Above 5000ft and below 10,500ft..
    But, that is too general. So, I look around for warm springs and where those waters meet other streams. That too is very generalized, but more fun.

    • wwwh. Yes, where hot springs enter the river, and are cooled where other streams mix with them. This is something that even global warming can’t change – the clues in the poem must be solid enough to withstand even this. Manby Hot Springs and the other Hot Springs below it – waters – plural. They are warm waters, because hot water starts at 115 F per settings on a water heater. Look up Jordan Hot Springs NM – they are described as “these warm waters” in the commentary.

      • As Dal has previously brought up, and I think he may even have mentioned this 1 place. There are many streams, creeks & canals w/ the word WARM in their name.

        For instance Warm River in the Caribou-Targee Natl Forest, Idaho. You could say when this river meets/ becomes Henrys fork, it has in a sense stopped. Just my opinion…

  117. LOL!! 🙂

    @michellerice38: good catch!! Been telling peeps that for a year, now!! 🙂

    @chad: Really like your “Walls, rooms and stairs 🙂 Complexity concealed with simplicity.” 🙂

    Yo seeker, how ya doing, amigo?? 🙂

    • Hey Loco, Good.. and you?

      I have to agree and disagree with you and Michelle… My reasons is simply, the 9 sentences are what I believe Fenn meant as clues in order, With a number of hints That lead the reader in understanding what each sentence means.

      With that thought, The hints, from the entire poem work together to tell how the sentences read. So once you know how to read the poem, that is the time the clues present themselves. Not so much as 1-2-3…8-9 clues, just understanding the significance of each sentence.

      But, If when talking about ” An Architect ” wrote the poem. I’m still see and found information in the structure of the poem.

      IMO, just saying, food for thought.

      Loco, Mind if I e-mail ya later?

  118. LOL!! Of course you can email me, seeker….anytime (unless you ask again, then H*ELL NO!!!! 🙂 )

    f has said consecutive and contiguous, yes.

    However, he has never said they are consecutive IN the Poem. Whole lotta Assuming going on there. You have to read and follow PRECISELY!!

    Explained it all before, here and at ChaseChat, and got hooted down the. But, it got a few to thinking. If you can’t see it, you can’t see it.

    Michelle……go with what you see in the Poem, DON’T follow the herd!!!

    Good Luck to All!!………..loco

    • No hooting intended here loco… Just stating what came straight out of f’s mouth.

      “There are nine clues in the poem and the clues are in consecutive order.”

      Rationalize it how you want.

    • I think its pretty neat how everybody has their own interpretation of the poem. Even though only one will lead us to the treasure, look at all the wonderful countryside that would have been left unnoticed if it wasn’t for our adventures. Hopefully after the treasure is found, the adventure trips go on.

  119. 🙂 Not “rationalizing” anything about the Poem, JCM. In case you haven’t noticed, there is nothing “rational” about it whatsoever!!! 🙂

    I just read the Poem, understand what it is saying and go to where it tells me to go!!! 🙂 …..If you can do that, “then” the clues will be in consecutive order, both within the Poem and in the search area.

    Read it how you want.

    Good Luck to Ya!!!!

    • I like the going “to where it tells me to go”… That’s what we all do and that always turns out well. 🙂 Always glad it is a beautiful place and not some trash-hole where it takes me.

      As far as poem rationality, I find it to be very rational… Hints in the book, a word that is key, just like f said; even the poem has some interesting stuff in it; Now if I could find some time to get out and put some possible solutions to the test. Too bad winter is settling in.

      Good luck to you too in proving your solutions. We are all getting really good at talking what we think, proving it and being right remains extremely elusive.

  120. LOL!! OK JCM, you win. I didn’t come here to argue. I saw a couple of posts I liked and commented on them. At no point did I say I had the answers or that my way was the way. I told you I have explained it in detail before. If you want the full explanation, go look for it, or not. I really don’t care.

    As far as searching, I’ve never been. As much as I love the outdoors and all it has to offer I have never needed an excuse to get out and enjoy it, constantly.
    When I construct a solution that I am 100% confident in, then I will go. One time and one time only to get the chest. I will not go the hope of a “possible” solution…..If you, samsmith, The Wolf, dal , goofy or anyone else gets there first….wonderful!!! I’ll shake your hand and buy a beer.

    And, you missed the point with my “and go to where it tells me to go!!! “….If you go back and read that post, you will see I was talking about the Poem….I go, within the Poem, to where the Poem says to, and proceed from there . >>>Instead of reading and understanding, you made an assumption and rationalized that I was speaking of the search location.

    Good Luck to All!!!……………….loco 🙂

    • Loco,

      I can understand your approach. I have heard (or read) that the more times you go search, the more it decreases it your chances of finding it.

      However, for me, it has been helpful to have boots on the ground. I have been on over 15 searches since August, and each time, I come back and am able to move a little farther in the poem.

      I realize that after so many searches, it gets less and less likely that I find it, but I don’t really think I will ever find it. So, with that mentality, I can search for the next ten years, and I would never get disappointed that I didn’t find it.

      I hope you are able to figure out the poem without having to wear through boots and tires, like me. If you are able to do that, you are much smarter than I.

  121. Begin – start; it – the search; where – the place; warm -94 F; waters – more than one warm water, TWO waters; halt – stop being warm. Real world: Start the search below where Manby Hot Springs and Stage Coach Springs stop being warm (i.e. where a colder stream enters the river below these two hot springs.) And – then; take it – the search; in the canyon – like the grand canyon; down – southward. Real world: Geographic clue: Is there a big canyon where the two hot springs are located, and does it continue below them – YES!!!!!! First two clues – solved.

  122. Not far – less than 50 miles; but too far – more than 5 miles; to walk – take a raft in the river, or drive along the road beside canyon. (The period here is important to note.) Real World: From where you begin the search, below where another river intersects the warm waters from the previous line, is there a road beside the canyon? YES!!!!! Hwy. 570.

  123. So now your driving along the canyon – where do you go from there – where do you stop and . . . Put in – enter (the river); below – down stream; the home of Brown – the lake stocked with Brown Trout. (even the local’s refer to this lake as being the “home of the browns”) OK, so now the whole stanza is done. And yet, this is not even close to where the treasure is located – not even close. (or else someone would have found it by now) But I have drawn a continuous line on the Google Earth map!

  124. Does anyone else subscribe to the thought that maybe WWWH et. al. Are not actually a place/noun? Like (bad example but) if it said “begin it where the gears end” instead of looking for cogs and trains and such one would begin it by “going in reverse” and reading the poem backwards to get the number 2 “clue”. They’d still go “in order” just not the order literally on the page…and the “answers” to the clues aren’t necessarily “places” as much as simply being the next step to take in the solve?

    • yep… it sounds like a switch back.. I though that for a long time , a cowboy covering his tracks a bit.

    • Just out of curiosity Jamie,

      Do you mean read the poem backwards as in start at stanza 6 to 5 , 4, 3, 2, 1? or are you saying the clues may be in that order?

      Or are you saying, the first clue is in stanza 2 – but the second clue in stanza 1?

      • I was using “backwards” as an analogy to IF it said “begin it where the gears stop” one might decide that the last gear is “reverse” and read backwards instead of look for a literal place where gears stop on a map. With WWWH Im saying that maybe it references another word/phrase/ place in the poem, or ties onto another word/line like forrest ties one string to the next, if that makes any sense,

    • After Forrest said Begin it where warm waters halt, he said “take it in the canyon down.” To me that signifies starting up high. I looked up the definition of warm waters and it stated any waters between the Arctic ocean and the Antarctic ocean is considered warm waters. When you think about it the only time any waters halt is when its in its frozen state. That’s why IMO the starting point is in the snow cap mountains. Merry Christmas!

  125. i like your thoughts Jamie Jones keep them coming , here is an idea ” not far but too far to walk ” could that be 26.2 miles

  126. Let’s try a different approach. After all, it’s been a few years since the poem was put out. Right? Let’s see. Honey comes about by a process of regurgitation. Bees do their regurgitation as a group. After the last regurgitation, the aqueous solution is still high in water. Water high. However, after a while, it’ll undergo evaporation and an enzymatic transformation. I would assume that ‘Where Warm Waters halt’ is precisely after the last regurgitation and once the evaporation is complete. Unlike water, honey is not affected by heat but cold weather would turn it into sugar. Where warm water halts could be at… ripe honey. You could say.

    • That’s a little bit bizarre Vic… I think you might be struggling a little or had too much honey!

    • Remember in the Minerva SB where f said the man’s eyes turned to sugar? A possible connection?

  127. James and Wise One,
    Thanks for commenting. Let me say something first; Fenns riddle is really tough. No joke here. And my post though humorous, is 100% fact. Find out about the process honey goes through. The Bee topic is merely but the tip of a huge iceberg of conjectures to the solve. If you layout the poem in a 24×31 grid (no spaces between words and each line on a separate row)… you’ll fin symmetry, axis, mirroring, geometric shapes, arrows, etc etc. Where does this lead? There is yet another riddle within the poem (as in a frame). And what it reads is ‘I TIE A DUO’
    well, after you process it correctly. The solve of the poem is a dual solve for the poem itself and for Fenn’s cancer treatment. It is fascinating. I have explained it in different ways and some of my latter posts are for mere fun while awaiting to hear from Fenn. The three-character solve is DBR for short and NO, I haven’t had too much honey yet. I envision the Treasure to be precisely a lifetime supply of Royal Jelly. A Chest if you dig into it, is a technical definition for a beekeepers drawer.
    A Chest is said to be underground and contain Food. Why do you think food?
    I’m totally serious and have enjoyed this big time. I hope you did too. Cheers!

    • Hi Victor!

      While I am having some trouble following all of you ideas I find them very interesting…..it is always nice to look at things with a different perspective… Thanks…

      • Spallies. I can appreciate where you’re coming from. I’ve been at it for exactly, one year. Tried EVERYTHING. Even did crazy stuff to the poem print outs such as kirigami and text weaving. Don’t laugh. This comes from Hebrew text analysis and so on. I have to insist, I hope my solve is right. I am waiting to hear from Fenn. I think he has been waiting to hear an almost word by word explanation to the challenge, as if written by himself. I can only hope to be there. If you have problems digesting all kinds of crazy stuff, I’ll give you only two similar graphic objects you will easily understand; do you know what the Enigma box is? An encoding device used by the germans during WWII?
        OK this poem is Fenn’s idea of one such thing inside a beehive. Not literally, but let’s you see the degree of complexity. You are given a text and this box-hive entangles things in a way that it becomes really hard to break. Ask the British how many people, resources and time it took from them to break the Enigma… and it all sprouted off from a prisoner’s interview. I have had no prisoner to speak with! So to speak.

        • Thanks Victor! I have only been on the Chase for about 3 months so I have not yet tried everything. But I have done other hunts where I did try anything and everything. You should see some of my poor books they have all but been destroyed after all the folding, drawing lines on, dunking in warm water (to activate a hidden ink of course…:) and some even may have gotten too close to a flame to see if that might activate the invisible ink..:)

          So, I am trying to not let my imagination get the best of me on this hunt and try to keep the book in tact. It is really a nice book I would hate to ruin it…

          I have read some on the Enigma Box… Again, that is an interesting way to look at it…

          • Hey Victor,

            I think you meant Enigma Machine… Right??? When I Google Enigma Box I get a device that protects your privacy on the internet…

            Either way kinds fun to read up on it again it’s been a while…

          • Spallies, you’re 100% correct it is the Enigma Machine. It looked like a box though. And I only used it as a visual example to help visualize the methodology of encryption. In my humble opinion, Fenn uses a similar tactic, however, he incorporated many lines of different info. Not one method and one line. My perspective is to analyze every bit that makes sense to you and try to tie it to whatever you have gotten previously and start building on that as you move forward, That’s all. Good luck and take care of the book.

        • Funny you mention this Victor…

          “Within a wider context, two Luftwaffe ciphers were broken, but the information gained was of little effective use. Similarly, Ultra’s role in the Battle of Britain was limited: better grade intelligence came from prisoners, captured documents and improved air reconnaissance.

          Only in 1941 did Enigma decrypts pay dividends. In the spring they provided evidence of a German military build-up prior to the invasion of Greece, although the Allies did not have a large enough military force to exploit this breakthrough.”


          Prisoners that escaped and or were released during WW1 gave better information then the ” Ultra” Information was used by British Code Breakers , and it was not effective until 1941, which leads me to , If Forrest was using a Mason code… Where did he get it. Being a Mason Their hidden knowledge is only for the 33 degree mason, and for him to de vogue it would put his very life at stake.
          With that said , I’m not convinced in this theory other then he could mean the bee as treasures new and old, but I’m not putting my money on it. Vick , this is not to insult your study or find , but to challenge you.
          I can’t tell you how many cyphers I’ve found before these . Including the Mason theory which I pretty much dismissed early, only due to I don’t think Masons are smarter then Forrest.
          But a common Statement to a Mason is ” Weaving Spider Come Not Here”

          Just my opinion every one has one.

        • Those interested in the Enigma Machine there is an app on the Apple store called Mininigma. Has six different Machines. Can copy and paste so one can send another their code with the key and they translate it. Just fun and likely no help with the poem.

  128. Victor, Spallies,
    “The Immitation Game” is an excellent movie about cracking the code of the WWII Enigma box. If f’s mind plays and runs in those circles we are all burnt toast! Lol

  129. Hi, I only heard about this treasure hunt earlier today. I have scanned through this thread, thoroughly through the first 20 or so posts, not so much after that. I am posting my thoughts on all this for anyone who wants to take my opinions. As I doubt I will ever be able to get out there and do it myself.

    Taken a clue far above in this thread, I decided to look on Google Maps. The Uncompahgre River. Choosing this as a starting point, since the meaning of the word. Something that does not change with temperature of seasons, and is a river, not a metaphor.
    This river appears to halt in 3 places. The first time at Ridgeway Reservoir. Although I dont see any place to look forward there from a map, maybe in person there is.
    The 2nd time is near the town of Ouray, CO. The water turns into a junction of creeks, and is IMO no longer a river. There are several canyons around the way, including Uncompahgre Gorge. So there are ways to take a canyon down. This brings me to Brown. I think it is important that we pay attention to the capitalization of the word Brown. A place, person or thing. The whole town is referenced to Brown Mountain. There is even a creek that goes up from the river, and even referenced as going up, Skyrocket Creek.
    The 3rd time the Uncompahgre River actual stops is further south. I say actually stops due to naming convention only. But it stops just past a small lake called Lake Como near hwy 19. Near this area is Brown Mountain itself. Valleys I am sure are there, Even a creek called Cement Creek, although the creek is not near at all to the river.

    However Brown could mean many things, but I am sure it is a proper noun or at the very least part of a proper noun. Brown Mountain, Brown Bear, Brown Cabins (in Ouray, CO).

    Again these are my thoughts in this on a starting point, as well as a few of the other clues, and I doubt I will ever be able to go out and find out if I am right or not. If anyone does go out with my clues, please let me know if I was right or wrong. It would be much appreciated.

    • Thinking back I seem to recall that some have consider this area.
      One of the things I have noted over the years of my pursuit of this chase is that what appears at first glace is not necessarily correct. Many searchers can attest to this considering the many places that have been searched. I would venture to say that a good number of us have had places that matched the poem’s
      path to interesting degrees.

      As an example my search has to do with a lake, a river and some mud holes. Until I am certain I have the hidey place I will continue my research. My reasoning for this is my brain is telling me there is more to the poem than meets the eye at first read.
      What I need right now is a muse, someone from my area that I can sit down with and bounce ideals back and forth.

      So if there is anyone out there from the AP, LP Melvindale Mi area drop me a line. Coffee is on me.

    • Jim Brown had the first dairy to provide milk to the miners right near the ice loop. Also, Kismet Peak, Teakettle Mt, Potosi Mt (petosi is famous olives), Ironton, Camp Bird, all right there. What a better place to hide the chest than on the million dollar highway.

    • WWWH Is Los Alamos – they shut down the last reactor Omega Ω and fully decommissioned in mid 90’s. No more warm water from the cooling systems. Los Alamos Canyon will take you down out of there.

        • Sadly Einstein, the US Govt for years processed 100% of the uranium mined in plants on Native American lands leaving first people’s fighting cancer, kidney disease, birth defects, and many others. Their waters ran warm with uranium by products and toxins. Some effort has been made to clean up but not sue how much.

          • What about Uravan Colorado? Union Carbide used to have tailing ponds and tried to evaporate the toxic waste for years. The old timers have died from some form of cancer.

          • Dal,

            Thank you for the information. I did see the post. It made me stand up and take notice because that’s right in my backyard. I used to live in Uravan when I was a kid. There are a lot of misdeeds done to people that go unnoticed. As always I really appreciate the time and effort you put into your blog and I enjoy reading new ideas from fellow Fenners. At least that’s what I am calling those in search of the Thrill of the Chase.

  130. Hi there!

    So I’m fairly new here, still working on figuring out the poem and clues.

    Fortunately (or unfortunately) I have the opportunity to go west… in two weeks time. At the moment, research is leading me to think the treasure is somewhere in Colorado or New Mexico. Still fighting with WWWH. One theory I have regards Vietnam and his time fighting (‘halt’ being a military term).

    Any thoughts and advice to a first-time searcher?

    • Seek out the path less traveled, imagination is better than knowledge. Is the best advice I can provide without revealing my current train of thought.

      • Stay open minded, There is more than one treasure to be found. Some of which you will carry for the rest of your life and will be priceless.

        • Chad, curious by what you mean by more than one treasure “some of which you carry for the rest of your life.” Sounds like physical, not just memories of hiking.

          • Greetings 42, consider this. When I was a child my parents would take the family to Tennessee for visitation with my grand parents. One of the most outstanding memories I have is the sound of a rooster crowing and waking up and smelling the fresh mountain air. Today @ age 60 there are times when I awaken at the crack of dawn, go outside and take a deep breath through my nose. If I am lucky the weather has swept the air clean and I can get the same scent. At which time a lot of childhood memories come flooding back. So yes in a way we all carry back from our adventures a physical treasure.

            Living in the city most of my adult life has giving me an appreciation for the wide open spaces. In the city one walks out of their front door and all they see is housing. In the country one see’s trees, animals, and open sky.
            In the city there’s very few adventures to be had, in the country Ummm so many things to explore and marvel at. How I miss the sound of a babbling brook as it meanders along it’s chosen course. So yeah, there are physical treasures to be had. Physical health and mental well being.

            Happy chasing

          • Nice to relive those memories Chad. So in essence you’re saying be open minded because it’s the memories and not gold you will take with you.

          • Yes I am saying be open minded. 42 my friend it is also the exercise that one will benefit from while seeking the chest in the wide open spaces. Question: How many rocks does one turn over in the city just to see what is under it?

            In my recent arm chair search I have located two places wwwh. Interesting thing is they both point to one area. Coincidence? Idk, but there are some interesting aspects to the area that I can not discard or refute no matter how I look at it.
            When time allows me I will be contacting a certain state and hope to get a fishing map. Just a few ducks left to get into line before I decide to head out on my adventure.

    • Can’t say about any connection with Vietnam. I personally don’t see one unless you cared to elaborate more. But I’m not aware of anyone mentioning a connection. Take advantage of your opportunity but be properly equipped for snow if your area is snowed in. Advice… Never give up if you want to stay in the game… if at first you don’t succeed try again. 🙂 I think it is fair to say that every person with their first time boots on the ground search has come back empty handed. Maybe you’ll be the first who doesn’t. Some have had empty hands many, many more times than that. I think maybe Dal would be the humbly proud winner of a few blue ribbons in that category.

    • New Mexico has had an especially warm winter. I was overheating on my search last week. The sun can be brutal in the mountains.

      Just wear layers. Dress warm, but be sure you can get down to just a t-shirt. Also, cactus know no mercy. Make sure your boots and tires are prepared for mud, snow, and cactus.

      However, Colorado is the opposite of everything I just said. If you think you are dressed warm enough, you probably aren’t.

    • Do not over-complicate your search; concentrate on the poem and the hints in the book (and a good map); you may not find the treasure, but you will be able to find contentment.
      “Have flashlight, will travel”

  131. Each night I look at another map of WWWH. So many. I Look at all the possible Browns. So far I have found many many places that fits. Some with a possible Blaze and some you wont know till you get there.
    Than I get sleepy reading my history books. As I fall asleep I dream of finding the Treasure. Its really a great thing to have. This longing for the Chest. I pray that I will have a special dream that will lead me to it.
    The Special feeling I have when I am looking behind that rock, or tree. I expect it to be there! Someday I hope it will.
    Its like a easter egg hunt. I wish more people would hide a treasure! I left a small few.

  132. ok so based on the fact that only a few people have gotten wwwh according to Forrest. i say that it may not START in a state it is hidden. I have two ideas, the end of warm river which is in idaho, (maybe warm river butte) OR Crystal Geyser Utah which is a geyser that spouts cold water AND it is near Canyonlands national park. I think the clue of too far to walk, means alot, certainly canyonlands is very far from any of the possible states. Anyways, I don’t know I just learned of this treasure a week ago, I’m from Canada so I guess news doesn’t travel very fast past our borders.

    • Forrest has said if someone knows were it is, But cannot get to it, I think because of a handicapped or something, that he would go get it for you. But you have to email him with your solution.

  133. interesting hypothesis, one small problem with that. The search area is defined by the following states.
    Montana, Wyoming, Colorado, and New Mexico. As I said….Interesting.

  134. Where warm waters halt could it mean where a river comes out of a lake lakes are warmer than rivers n then the river could flow into a canyon

  135. I have noted that the poem is set in general terms. Can not help wonder if it has a specific place hidden with in it.

    • You didn’t expect this type of “treasure poem” to be written any other way did you??? That’s one of the reasons why it’s so darned hard to figure out the “end game” IMHO

      • I have been a treasure hunter since the 80’s and it is never easy. First comes the story, search it for clues. Gather as much information as possible, ask questions.
        put the bread crumbs together over and over again until one day. Yureka ya strike gold.. Besides if treasure hunting was easy everyone would be doing it enh?

    • Now that, I believe, is a 2 million dollar question. I would think it has to. The Blaze, I think, is the hidden representative of that specific place.

      • I have the same point view myself, that the stanza “If you have been wise and found the blaze” is three fold. 1st view is a path through the poem and the second is a marker in the area of the chest. Third view: is the path to the chest itself. Considering the following ” Look quickly down your quest to cease” lends credit to all of these views.

        Example: we study the poem. We find the key, with the key we open the meaning of the poem’s directions and the route to the chest. We then go to the starting point and follow the instructions we have unlocked.
        When in the area of the chest we may see something that will draw our attention so all we have to do is look down. Wala one chest ala cart.

        Sounds easy enh?

        • By Jove I think you got it! Wahahaha 🙂 I think maybe the key could be something in the poem that Forrest knows we are all stumbling on that is preventing us from getting the solve 100% correct.

          • I can not say much more without tossing years of research out the window.

            Oh I agree, Forrest has given us many clues and subtle hints that I am amazed that some of these elements to solving the poem have been overlooked. I have a pretty good ideal of the general area the chest is hidden in
            Now I need to tighten my focus and find the next step in my solution.

            As the guard at the wizards of oz’s palace door one said: Can’t you read the sign?
            It’s as plain as the nose on my face…

  136. Question for the board.

    I looked at the map and it does not appear that Arizona is on the map.
    Has he ever said the treasure is not in Arizona?

    • Kelly, He also said that it is not in UTAH of IDAHO,
      That leaves New Mexico, Colorado, Wyoming and Montana as the search states. Areas in those states below 5000 feet are also out.

  137. Forrest has said the chest is hidden someplace north of Santa Fe.
    He also stated it is in the Rocky Mtns. Guess that leaves out AZ as a searching ground. Ummm?

  138. Although the clues may start outside of the Rocky Mountains and end up within them.

    • Considering the stanza ” it’s not far, but too far to walk” I would be more incline to think the path starts at above 5000 ft. However from a different perspective you are correct the clues do start outside of the rocky mtns…… In the poem wahahahaha

  139. I am of the belief that the poem must be solved clearly prior to going out on a quest anywhere. I think that the poem itself is a mix of hidden clues that will lead to physical locations, that will lead to visual clues and the chest.

    Forrest has said numerous times that all you need to find the treasure is the poem and a good map. Forrest has also said, “Begin it where warm waters halt”. I believe that this clue is somewhere within the poem, from there we move onto the next and so forth.

    I think that once we know “Where warm waters halt” then our minds will open up further to the remaining clues and help to make sense of them.

  140. Where does Forrest every say to start at “begin it where warm waters halt”? I believe he said “start at the beginning”…which is completely different than saying the previous.

  141. I’m curious to know if “where warm waters halt” can be located without knowing any other clues. It seems to me that the presumed 2nd clue (“take it in the canyon down”) is required to know “where warm waters halt”….Just a thought..

    • Jake..not in my opinion but the next line does help you understand if your WWWH is viable..because all the clues must work after the first one..or you may have started in the wrong place…or if you started in the right place then you missed something along the route..

    • Imho, I think all of the clues interlock kinda like a picture puzzle.
      To understand the poem one needs to broaden their field of vision so to speak,

  142. You guys may be all around the solution.


    The blaze is the right hand margin of the poem itself. connect the dots by drawing a line from last word to last word down the right hand margin. Use it on a map as an overlay to find the treasure after first lining it up with where warm waters halt.

    • Buddy,
      Following your suggestion, the same pattern is on the left hand margin as well…a mirror image…if you will. that in itself is a bit curious. Both edges of the poem designed the same.

      You said, use this pattern on to “A Map”. Question is which map are you referring too? The map in TFTW was 4 years after the fact…so that would not have helped the searcher who started in 2010.

      As well as the size of the map would be needed to match the pattern…

      I like the thought process as the poem being a map of sorts. But what in the poem or even in the book would suggest which correct map to use?

      And if I may ask you, by using this method do you consider the pattern as one of the 9 clues?

      • Austin…. Using the definition of blaze as in; “to mark a trail”

        Seeker…… I was supposing the map could be any geographical map that would lend itself toward lining up with the border in relation to the clues given. Curious as to why the poem in the book “Too Far to Walk” was justified to the left while the original poem had all lines centered?

        I believe that the poem was constructed architecturally to lead the TH’er to the treasure with confidence. Once the “blaze” has been wisely discovered.

        I once saw a treasure map that had the top edge torn in such a way as to line up perfectly with the features of a mountain range as long as you were standing in the right spot to line it up.

  143. My above post is compatible with clues presented by Fenn himself as listed in the cheat sheet located in this site.

    Good luck and happy hunting.

  144. At any rate my post was meant to suggest another way of looking at the architecture of the poem in more of a physical sense.

  145. Oh goodness I need sleep. Haha, maybe i’ll dream of treasure. Well, throughout my lingering on the web searching for leads I came across an interesting thought. The Apache Indians have a proverb that goes “Listening to lies is like drinking warm water” Or something like that. Does anyone know if Forrest believes in Jesus by any chance?

    • Wwwh. At the hour of death that is where warm waters hault we are 97 percent water when we dye we get cold

      • http://health.howstuffworks.com/diseases-conditions/death-dying/dying4.htm

        After the heart stops beating, the body immediately starts turning cold. This phase is known as algor mortis, or the death chill. Each hour, the body temperature falls about 1.5 degrees Fahrenheit (0.83 degrees Celsius) until it reaches room temperature. At the same time, without circulation to keep it moving through the body, blood starts to pool and settle. Rigor mortis, or a stiffening of the body, sets in about two to six hours after death

  146. “Where warm waters HALT” Halt means to come to a stop. So wouldn’t that mean where warm waters come to a stop..? If so, it would be the opposite of warm, which we all know is cold.

    • Dylan,
      Why? I’m not understanding your comment. If Halt means stop by definition, and you sue it as such. Why would warm me the opposite? with that line of thinking wouldn’t halt me Go?

      • If ‘Halt’ means ‘Stop’ then when ‘Warm Water’ stops being ‘Warm’ it would then be ‘Cold’ water.

        So I think his reasoning goes…

  147. “waters halt” = stillwater, stillwaters, still water, still waters.
    Stillwater County, Stillwater River, Stillwater Creek, etc.

    Not my opinion. Just throwing it out there for comment.

  148. How about the warm waters being the Gulf of Mexico and WWWH being the Continental Divide? The other side ends up in the relatively cold waters of the Pacific. This doesn’t really help now that he has published the map, but may explain why Idaho is out if it is east of the divide, but leaves MT, WY, CO, and NM. It may still be helpful if it is saying east of the divide in those states.

    • Hersbird-
      Others have considered the divide as the place where warm waters halt…but the problem that I heard most often exclaimed was that the divide travels 2,000 miles through the four states. So using the divide does not give you a “place” to begin. Instead it gives you a 2,000 mile line and how does that help you find the canyon?

      • Thanks, I was trying to read everything first before asking but there is so much here! Great page, I’m in western Montana and only heard about this this spring.
        My dream would Vento use the treasure to buy a price of land similar to where the treasure is hidden and start a camp for kids, a treasure theamed camp.
        “Like a man who finds a treasure buried in a field and sells everything he owns to buy the field.”

      • I looked for where the Continental Divide crossed near a Home of Brown. In Colorado, for example, it crosses near Leadville and also passes across Wheeler Mountain. Two hot spots.
        So, if the CD were WWWH, look for intersections with a HOB or other clues.

      • Dal,
        I have used the Triple Divide as my wwwh since it is a CD location and the triple based on the first stanza and the discussion on how “three” appears in first line. For new folks: As ‘I’ have g-one al-one in there(three). Also a being 1st letter in alphabet and 3 a’s in same line.

    • Hersbird,

      I have always like the CD as part of the poem but would not use it as WWWH. I tend to think of it as… From there its no place for the meek… Describing Metaphorically the CD as the “back bone” of the Rockies. But then again I see a lot of metaphors and idioms that describe locations and more.

      Although I can understand how some like the Rockies as WWWH. It works well with the comment …the shadow knows…when looking at the effects the Mountain’s have on the lee side of the range.

      The again, Does WWWH start in the USA?

      You have to remember. No one knew at the beginning of all this that the Rockies where the Mountains mentioned in the book. Or that Idaho was not in the running etc. I try not to think about the after the fact comments when re-reading the poem. I just don’t want them to influence a thought or Idea…I just use them to confirm a method.

  149. 55555…… More weeks 🙂 😉 🙂 😉 🙂
    I need this month to fly by.

  150. Seeker
    Please don’t tell me that’s a lot of weeks
    I’m like a busy bee so I’m sure it will buzz on by 🙂 lol

  151. Knock knock Happy Mayday everyone. I could not find a flower to leave on Dal’s doorstep so I am leaving some furry critters I found… Or just a smilie face if they don’t show up on your device 🙂 .

  152. There are a LOT of comments here and I haven’t yet read every one – of the many I have read, as well as many other blogs and info pertaining to TTOTC and clues … I haven’t seen even one reference to the ocean. Warm Water = Ocean or sea, not in Arctic or Antarctic region. FF as a pilot would know this. Everyone thinks all the clues have to be in the Rockies. Where does it say that? We could start this search in Vietnam where FF flew or anywhere, for that matter. The chest is in the Rockies, but I think the clues/beginning of the search could be anywhere. Am I wrong?

    • Ok, let’s run the logic…
      begin it where warm waters halt
      and take it in the canyon down
      (nothing lower than the ocean? maybe death valley?)
      the tc is above 5,000 ft elevation
      this idea seems doomed to failure

      • C’mon decall, I’m trying to be supportive . Ever so mindful of what I type. Acutely aware of the shark that circles the backwater with his itchy trigger finger on the nuke button, with the knowledge of being struck by lightning, hit by softball size hail, and giant locus descending on me, I’m going to type this in one sentence, close my eyes,and hit the submit button with a prayer….
        Goofy has made me kinder and gentler person…….

        UH OH.. Clouds are forming on the horizon…

        Run Forrest, Run…….

        • POG,
          Incorrect, your memory apparently is not serving you correctly. (better check it).

          On average New Orleans is 51% at or above sea level.

      • Why does ” take it in “. Have to be down.simple logic me dictate that but could it also mean just “view it.” As in, taking in the sights.

        Is canyon down to mean only a canyon below or veiw it from the same level?

        ‘ walking the canyon I spent some time to Take in the view.’

        Does… I taken in the view down the road. Mean actually down? Even if the road is flat and level.

        Does this say I’m up top or on the canyon floor?

        Just a thought.

          • Seeker

            Sometimes we just have to ” Get down on it ” lol 🙂 ha

          • Seeker I see your point, let me explore this for a moment.
            Take it in the canyon down. Does mean we are along the canyon rim looking down into the canyon? An interesting thought indeed.

        • I enjoy the idea of f being tricky with words such as halt. “Halt” or “put in” may just be answered in this way. I don’t have anything new to add to the halt discussion but for an example see my thoughts I’ve had on Canyon “down”:

          Upside down Canyon=Mountain (unlikely)
          Down=lying position=flat. Canyon flattend=Plains
          Canyon lower=Underwater Canyon
          Down=to a lesser pitch=play on word=lesser sloped canyon=basin etc.
          Down=to the lee side=wind river canyon

    • David, I think Forrest said as much once, that the clues could begin outside the four states, maybe in reference to something in Idaho (just as an example, not a hint or clue.)
      Wish I could remember where I read it, but somewhere on Dal’s website, I think….

    • David,
      I have considered who as being in the ocean and still revisit that concept. Couple that with submarine canyons to end up on shore. My who locations are the shelf near Alaska and on the east near Labrador. I base these locations on the Ocean currents that bring warmer waters to these locations which in turn send cooler waters on the return.

  153. Actually – still reading and found recently, reference to Gulf of Mexico and Continental Divide. Cool. I am not off track – others are starting outside of map area also.

  154. For what its worth… Im writing from memory, I finished that geology for beginners book several weeks ago, so could be very wrong… continental divide splits somewhere, and runs along both sides of a big basin before it joins again (Colorado I think). I recall an Isa Lake in YSNP that is right on the divide, has two runoffs, E&W, but then I think the E one circles back and drains W. The shell fossils in the mountains indicate the land was once below an ocean, but at that time the land was flatter & the ocean was not in Montana so much as the tectonic plate its on was below the ocean at the equator. Interesting discussion.
    Years ago I used to fly a Cessna out of Opa Lakca airport, inland of Miami Fl, set my altimeter at 9′. In a few years, it may be at sea level. Maybe we can re-evolove with fins & gills.

    • OS, the Great Divide Basin is located in Wyoming where the Continental Divide makes a circle. Interesting place……..

  155. Before I toss a curve ball into the mix. Let me state that I do not recall Forrest saying the clues start outside of the united states. I do recall that he stated that the map in TTOTC was an unintentional clue. From what I have read the map was meant to encompass all of the Rocky Mountain range. Yes right up into canada.. So now it is possible that WWWH is in canada?

    Now for the curve ball. What if WWWH has nothing to do with water at all?
    Ummmm What else could it be???

    I doubt that Forrest will weigh in on the this question: In very broad terms would canada be a viable place to look for WWWH?

    • There is no map in TTOTC. A map of the valid search area is included in the book TFTW. Canada is not on that map and has been ruled out as a viable search area.

      • I stand corrected, thank you Edger.
        Too many irons in the fire to think clearly lately.

      • Edgar,

        Canada is ruled out to where the chest lays in wait. That doesn’t mean a clue is not in the boundaries of Canada or for that matter anywhere. Now I will say you used the term “Valid search area” so yes the spot the chest is located must be with in that area.

        So it is possible Chad, that a clue, such as WWWH maybe be there. Just depends on your own interpretation of the poem and the area that it covers.

        • Well I guess it does depend on one’s view of what the 1st clue is. I would have a difficult time thinking Forrest would back track with a clue that ends up in canada.
          then returning to the US. At this point it is possible, just not logical to me.

          • …Chad, don’t despair, Dal has generously included a link for that map somewhere on here. I remember one of the views being quite large
            And I’ve also begun to wonder if Forrest is putting one over on us- could WWWh mean something else? How clever is that, Fenn immediately stumps everyone out of the gate, knowing we all have water on the brain. Frustration will not let me be.

          • I agree, this being due to the many possibilities of wwwh, Esp if one takes it as something to do with water.
            Now me muddled mind says what if is has to do with a little known historical event? Again something to think about.

            Yeah I have a copy of that map, unfortunately I have not been in a position to purchase Forrest’s other books. I have my copy of TTOTC. Please pardon my missteps from time to time. As my physical condition is not allowing clear thoughts most times.

  156. we know that Forrest made 2 trips from his car. Now does WWWH starts after he got out of the car or the drive is the “too far to walk” part and “home of brown” is the starting point after the drive?

        • Just prodding the thought process Dal. MY view is wwwh is about 10 miles from hob. Once to hob everything else is within walking distance.

          • omo – I think that hob is a very special place – a one of a kind – how else would any one know if they have the right wwwh this is just my opinion

          • Frank, there are many unique “Brown”s out there. The Lamar Ranger Station is just one example of a unique Brown. Most of them have a WWWH attached to them with a little imagination.

            You certainly could be correct; but I think it’s a mistake to limit the criteria of any clue. In my opinion, the perfection of the poem is how all the clues fit together, not the uniqueness of any particular clue.

          • Now I have not investigated the possibility of a Brownie camp.. I.E. girl scouts comp.

          • that is exactly what i think too. the hike starts after the hob. i also think that hob is (maybe) visible from wwwh.

    • Hope,

      If I may suggest, and only a suggestion. The comment of two trips fenn made from his car to hide the chest, is only his actions to hide the chest. The poem may not be the same route or that the poem describes. If your using WWWH as your staring point… it could be anywhere.

      • I have a couple of WWWH’s.
        Though not as my “starting point”
        I believe warm water halts at the snowline, thus, approx 8000 elevation.
        I also believe the WWWH website is where I begin my IT.

        • JD,
          You said…”I also believe the WWWH website is where I begin my IT.”

          I’m curious to the point I have to ask, Can you explain that comment?

          FF said, he was almost 80 when he put his plan into action. So that would be approx 2009 or 10. The book was released in 2010. But the web site your talking about [ if correct, the count down timer ] has been around for just over 1 year or so.

          So is the ” IT ” you refer to, is the same IT from the poem? and if so why would a web page that started 3 years after the fact be the IT from the poem. If I’m not mistaken fen had stated he is not affiliated with it.

          My line of thinking is, If that held any water to the poem…then all the folks searching prior had no chance of finding the chest.

          • Well, seeker, that is ,an excellent point. Of course, it would be, if that were the starting of the entire chase. And remember, we are talking opinion here, and you know what they say about opinion…
            I digress, IMO, the IT portion, for MY solve, wrong or right, is the site. Be it, a set of “guidelines” if you will. (why am I suddenly reminded of that creepy pirate in the Black Pearl Pirates of the Caribbean?) Not that smart I be aye!
            But I do have imagination!
            anyway what was the question?

          • Consider this Seeker, Begin ” IT ” where ware waters halt.
            IT = the pursuit, chase, the path.
            Second reference to it: And take ” IT ” :
            in the canyon down.
            IT = The path. the chest i.e. Indulgence.

            Third reference to ‘ IT ”

            From there ” IT’S ” no place for the the meek.
            ” IT’s ” = lead into a description of the general area.

            And so on.
            Just me muddled mind pondering possible meanings and thinking it through.

  157. Hi All,

    I’m new, first post. I don’t get to search that much and don’t mind giving up my info. Not sure if this has already been brought up, sorry if it has….could the wwwh be the Firehole river? (ff loved this place as a kid, rode his bike there to swim in the warm waters), take the canyon down to Nez Perce Creek (not far, but to far to walk). Nez Perce Creek is the “home of the brown trout in yellowstone”

    “The brown trout has a rather extensive distribution in the park, although only a single plant of 9,300 fish was made in Nez Perce Creek in 1890”

    The trail skirts several thermal features and the meandering Nez Perce Creek—home to rainbow and brown trout. – See more at: http://www.backpacker.com/trips/wyoming/yellowstone-national-park/yellowstone-national-park-nez-perce-creek/#bp=0/img1

    Maybe I’m missing something but it makes sense to me!

    • Hi Shaun,
      Lots of people have searched along the Firehole in various places, and made the Brown trout connection with the Nez Perce creek. So far it hasn’t panned out for anyone.

    • Yes I looked in that area. The trail is or was closed until mid July when I was there to give time for the Bears to move out. I went the first day it was open a little nervous so it could still Be there.

    • Shaun, Thanks for the information form NPS. I had found on wikipedia that they were introduce in the “upper firehole river”. I think NPS location may be more accurate. It still puts the HOB in the same area to “put in below” . Doesn’t change my solve, other than you might put in a few hundred feet closer to firehole canyon.

  158. Hi, Noob here.

    Since I live way too far way to search in person, am offering up a few thoughts. Apologies if this is ground you all have hashed to death…

    1.) Could Warm Waters mean a different sense as in warm colored water? The natural (pre-dammed) is red-ish, a warm color.

    2.) Could halt mean the river’s source? The headwaters of the Colorado R being the continental divide: La Poudre Pass CO

    Do you start where the Warm River starts?

  159. I’m also new to this whole thing and would like to offer a thought on WWWH.

    I’ve read ideas on temperature, but the temperature of the water really depends on the time of year.

    I read about the “warm waters” term used by the NMDGF. Which to me seems like the closest answer so far. Mainly because Fenn did a lot of fishing. So, maybe it’s place where you can find trout.

    But I still have an issue with that interpretation because there are so many different places north of Santa Fe that fit that description.

    There is another issue I have with that interpretation with much simpler reasoning. The term “warm water” is fairly unique to NM.
    Would Fenn use a clue that obscure? A clue that mostly NM fishers would understand?

    I don’t believe that.

    I believe that he used clues that someone from anywhere could pick it up and start looking around and not have a need for obscure information.

    • Welcome Michael,

      You bring up a very good point. Obscure clues! I leaning in the same direction as you are, IMO the clues would be cleverly written but have common knowledge not to give an advantage to one particular group or state etc.
      The interesting thing about WWWH is again IMO the use of “waters” vs water. Waters having many more meaning vs water. Could it be that Waters is referring to All waters? or something altogether different.

      The debate continues….

      • it (the chest) has to be less than 2 miles from a driveable road/path. he said that he was able to go take 2 trips out to the site from his car in one afternoon… at 79 or 80 years old. it takes me approximately 1 hour hour to walk 2 miles with my kids in the stroller. doing that twice is 8 miles (2 miles there, 2 miles back X 2).. i could walk about 8 miles in an afternoon total maybe ten if I was by myself, but I’m also a lot younger than 80.

        So, from some simple reasoning if he technically started from his car then he parked VERY close to where warm waters halt. Which tells me you can practically drive to the starting point.

        • correction… I shouldn’t say it has to be less than 2 miles. More along the lines of “some where around 2 miles, give or take a half a mile”

          • http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Walking

            That entry is a fairly quick read. but if you factor in things like terrain and age we could be talking less that 2.5 mph. how long is an afternoon? 2-4 hours 12pm to 2pm? 12pm to 4pm? 1-5? 12-5?

            Basically how much time did he have and how fast was he travelling? with my own personal experiences hiking around I’m guessing both trips couldn’t have been more than 10 miles. so 2.5 miles (again, at the most, it could be less) one way by himself four times in one afternoon.

            I’m sorry, I’m not really trying to regurgitate my thought process to the point of annoyance, but my wife is already getting tired of listening to me.

        • I’m not certain that all of the searching has to be on the map. Certainly where you get out of a car to do your final search, could be clue 7 or 8 or… Warm waters could be Texas, Vietnam, or wherever. The treasure is hidden in the highlighted area of the map. The clues do not have to be, necessarily.

          • I’m not sure that I agree with that. But what may be possible is that when he placed the chest the way he went may not be the same as the directions in the poem… It only took him and afternoon. Is that because he knew of a more direct way to get there? and that maybe the poem are clearer directions?

            For example when I give someone directions to my house I tell them them the main roads which are clear and easy to see which makes it less confusing. but when I go to my house I know the fast way to get there.

            Just a thought

        • Michael-
          Don’t we also have to factor in the possibility that his route was different than the route the poem describes? I mean, it’s quite possible he drove and parked a quarter mile from the where the chest is hidden but the poem directs us to take another, more interesting and convoluted route…that could be quite different from the direct route to the chest.

          Additionally, the route the poem describes may be impossible to walk or drive. Maybe you would discover the place by searching with the poem on a map or GE or in your head…and then simply drive to the hiding place via the nearest road not physically following the directions in the poem.

          Finally, the route described in the poem might not even exist in the physical world. It could be a mythical route based on lore and legend. The places referred too in the poem may physically exist but the routes may not. I tried this approach when I examined a route taken by the Tewa people in Northern NM from Ojo Caliente and looked at the area around Tres Piedras.

          I don’t know for certain how much information we need in order to follow the clues in the poem or where that information might come from. It’s easy to say that it all exists in the physical world…but Forrest has done a great deal of research into the Tewa people and has traded with many western Native American groups from The Blackfeet to the Sioux to the Utes. Myth and lore and even language could play a role. For instance, in the Ute language what does Uncompahgre mean? And where might that lead us to investigate? And what Ute myth or legends are associated with the area that is most associated with that name?

          Just thinking out loud here…not arguing for or against anything..


          • Thanks Dal, add more confusion to my already confused state of mind. A mythical route…. THAT’S OFF TOPIC!!!! I’M THROWING OUT CHUM… HERE SHARKY,SHARKY…

          • Thanks Dal. What you said in the first paragraph is was I was trying to say except worded better 🙂

          • dal….”No specialized knowledge is required mdavis19, and I have no expectations. My Thrill of the Chase book is enough to lead an average person to the treasure.f”

            Wouldn’t knowledge about Tewa/Native American lore/legends constitute specialized knowledge?

            Unless it’s contained within the poem.