Architecture of the Poem…Part One

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This page is now closed to new comments. To add to the discussion please go to the current Architecture of the Poem page.

This is the place to discuss the idea that the poem was created by an architect. What does Forrest mean by that statement and how will understanding the poem’s architecture help us identify the clues and find the treasure.

 

794 thoughts on “Architecture of the Poem…Part One

  1. Understanding the poems architecture explains everything and tell you exactly where the chest is.

    It is absolutely amazing how this whole thing works.

    • jan, I posted some ideas below. I am trying to read solves proposed by other searchers, but people don’t seem to want to explain what their finds are. I just proposed to Dal to add a link called ‘Post your solution’. What do you think?

      • I have explained my solve on my blog. It is told by Freeman in a Billings News Paper report called “Crashing Down the Yellowstone in a Wooden Boat.” It was written in 1902. La Duke to Joe Brown Put in and through Yankee Jim Canyon. There are many blazes in that canyon but which one. That is the question. I am willing to share but no one so far has allowed my solve to stay on their blogs.

    • There is a problem with the poem listing on this site. Forrest says “The answer I already know” in his book. Here, site says “The answers…” using the plural form. Turns out, this is an important difference in solving the puzzle. Check the source.

      Himalaya

      • nardin-
        In my copy of TTOTC book, on page 132 “answers” is plural.
        On this blog it is also plural.
        Look at the poem on Forrest’s website:
        http://www.oldsantafetradingco.com/the-thrill-resource-page
        It is singular on his own blog.
        It is also singular on the map in my copy of TFTW.
        So it depends on which “book” you are looking at.
        The difference you point out has already been addressed by Forrest.
        He said “one of them is an innocent typo”
        See the whole answer here:
        http://dalneitzel.com/2013/06/19/forrest-gets-mail-4/
        You might want to re-evaluate the importance you place on that “s”.

        • I don’t think the statement “The answers I already know” is about himself or some accumulated wisdom …. I think its about something on the route that gives answers, and he is pointing it out to us by saying that He doesn’t need them. I think it is a clue.

          The personal wisdom thing is probably a more popular interpretation.

      • howdy folks hunch here. wait a miniute Dal, Cat Cut,…let nardin explain. go ahead nardin, tell us the difference in using answer or answers in solving the puzzle.

        and then tell me what source to check. and why you put Himalaya there.
        im kinda slow. use pictures if you can, helps me a lot.

        • hunch-
          I don’t mean to speak out of turn here..but many people have used a kind of numerology method to solve the poem. It involves counting letters of the alphabet and assigning them numbers. About two years ago it was a popular approach to solving the poem. If you are using that approach every letter is important…in fact essential..

          In my little mind when Forrest made his statement about typos and suggested it did not matter whether the “s” was there or not it put the squash on using a solution that counted letters in the poem…others disagree.

          I don’t know that this is why nardin feels the “s” is important. I am simply pointing out one reason the “s” could be important.

          • I know Fenn denies it, but come on, It’s obvious to me this is about his legacy and his story. Totally agree it’s not about numbers or letters… I doubt ff wants to be thought of for the next millennia as a number solve. The story has already been written and the legacy already established and will grow and grow even after the tc is found. In fact, the place will be his alone after it’s found. So if a solve is not founded on his stories and favorite places, what good is it? zero in my opinion. (not opiñion)

          • hello Dal, hunch here. thanks. and thanks to Decall. i agree with you two, i just like to read others thoughts on what FF is tryin to say. to me, when he says answers with the s it means there’s more than one answer to his own question…So why is it that I must go and leave my trove for all to seek? he’s said because he wants families to get back to nature. he’s said he wants others to experience the thrill of the chase. and, many other reasons for leaving the trove. there may be as many answers to this question as there are places the poem has led searchers. answer(s) works for me either way. count on it. ha ha.

          • Agreed. “If” this is to add to a “legacy” of sorts, it also diminishes that by simply boiling it down to math. I don’t think that’s the point. It pulls the personality out of the whole thing.

  2. Maybe the clues are from bottom up, maybe odd clues first then even…but then again he said dont mess with my poem….I wish he had not said that, I really like messing with the words to try to figure out hidden meanings….:(

  3. Architect is a creator 🙂
    Forrest did create this poem
    And it’s a good one:)!!!!!!!

  4. George R. R. Martin, author of Game of Thrones (who lives in Santa Fe) said:
    “I think there are two types of writers, the architects and the gardeners. The architects plan everything ahead of time, like an architect building a house. They know how many rooms are going to be in the house, what kind of roof they’re going to have, where the wires are going to run, what kind of plumbing there’s going to be. They have the whole thing designed and blueprinted out before they even nail the first board up. The gardeners dig a hole, drop in a seed and water it. They kind of know what seed it is, they know if they planted a fantasy seed or mystery seed or whatever. But as the plant comes up and they water it, they don’t know how many branches it’s going to have, they find out as it grows. And I’m much more a gardener than an architect.”

    ― George R.R. Martin

    • I think Forrest wrote the poem and books like and architect, well planned and everything in order. But now he seems to be enjoying it all like a gardener who planted the seeds in all of us and is now watching how we grow, some flourishing and growing straight, some wandering here and there like vines and others withering away and falling by the wayside. 🙂

  5. I think that Forrest’s statement that an architect wrote the poem is a very logical statement. Given the above concept of gardeners vs architects it is clear that Forrest planned the poem from the start..after all..he knew he was creating a pathway that would lead folks to a particular place. He knew where he wanted people to start and he knew where he wanted people to end. He also knew why he wanted them to follow this path…So the plot was established…the path was established long before he ever wrote the poem.
    Forrest wasn’t guessing about where people would go…he already knew that..the task was to get folks from point A to point B in an interesting way.

      • Sooo..if the word is colloquial then it might be a term common among writers or among Santa Feans…
        I think I’m sticking with the George R.R. Martin analogy above.

        • Yes, I agree. I don’t think Forrest is much of a gardener… he said the plants in his bathroom never bloomed or something to that effect.

          • I think you are wrong on that. There are articles out there about his garden at his current house and an award he recieved for a garden he made at or near the gallery.

        • Your probably right Deb… I have only seen pictures online of the garden at the Gallery but it is gorgeous… I guess I was just going off that he said the flowers never bloomed???

      • http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colloquialism

        “A colloquial name or familiar name is a name or term commonly used to identify a person or thing in informal language, in place of another usually more formal or technical name ”

        So seeing as colloquial name usage is an informal name and architect is a formal name , we can therefor figure in the logical factor as if we were logical in thought , and come to the conclusion. You are just having fun with this once again.

        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wlMegqgGORY

      • That’s an interesting statement. Colloquialisms are often geographical in nature, and used in everyday speech. Words that have a formal meaning can also have a colloquial meaning and the meanings can change over time.

        So we’ve been looking at “formal” names (on the map) on our searches. That narrows it down to a gazillion places. But now we need to add informal names of places, which may only be known to the locals or mentioned in a book.

          • Googy…lol…
            I like that so much better than Goofy…
            Hey Goof…I think you should change your name…
            Googy is so much more friendly and warm…
            Sounds like a name from one of those Beach Blanket films with Annette Funicello.

            Googy, Googy, lend me your comb…
            Never mind the comb I don’t really need one of those any more… 🙂

  6. Important to keep in mind that Forrest Fenn was Designer, Architect, Builder, and Finished craftsman from start to finish.
    1. Vision
    2. Location
    3. Blueprint
    4. Foundation
    5. Framework
    6. Exterior Finish
    7. Craftsman detail
    8. Interior Finish work
    9. Artwork & beauty details

    • Here is one way of applying beginning to completion poem interpretation incorporating architectural components:

      **ALL FICTITIOUS for sake of discussion**

      TTOTC poem has 6 stanzas and 24 lines

      1. Forrest selected his location in Wyoming – it’s near Forest Service road 24

      2. He writes the poem with 24 lines.

      3. Hidden in the poem are the words ‘twenty four’ which confirm location.

      4. He writes the book with 24 chapters which hint at 24 clues in the poem

      5. In chapter 24 he writes about pioneers which confirms pioneer canyon in Wyoming near FS road 24

      6. 24 gold nuggets of truth in the text are advice from his father

      7. He placed 24 gold nuggets in the chest

      8. The best time of the year to search for TC is after 6/24

      9. His sister June’s birthday was 6/24

  7. This is without doubt an architects doing. There is nothing about the writing of this poem that is not deliberate, plotted, walked again and again in his head. He is not miss leading he is just not putting the “road” right out there in front of us, or is/has he. I believe he has we just need to decipher it.

  8. I also recall him saying at the Moby sighing I believe . something along the lines that He felt like an Architect Drew the Poem.

  9. Forrest is an organized person. You’ve seen his closet, his bath, his office. My guess is that his gallery and the staff that worked there were also very organized. He undoubtedly had a system and expected staff to follow it. That’s not to say that there wasn’t room for fun and adventure and spontaneity but the business of running the gallery would have been well planned and thought out by Forrest. He had a system. In my opinion the poem is the same. It is a plan that will get someone from point A to point B. Forrest knows where both those points are located. We do not, and just as Forrest has said, in so many words, we cannot possibly follow the poem to get to point B unless we start at point A. Starting anywhere else will not get us to point B. Further, all the steps in between must also be followed accurately. Otherwise we end up at point F.

    Like an architect’s plan, you will not end up with the house that is planned unless you follow all the directions in the proper order. It has been said many times that the most important part of building a house is starting with a good foundation. So, the most important step in the poem is to figure out where point A is located. Start at the beginning.

    I think another analogy for the poem is that it’s like a recipe. A chef wrote that poem. We know we want a treasure chest cake at the end. To get there you have to follow the recipe precisely. We have a list of ingredients and we have the directions. Start at the beginning and add the other ingredients in the correct sequence and we will end up with a treasure chest cake. Screw it up and you end up with cow pies.

    I guess I like the architect analogy better than the chef analogy…

      • Joyce-
        If you are having trouble with the “15 years” statement then I think you are thinking about it too hard…

        I have a house that was built in 1905. I bought it 25 years ago. I started working on it the day I moved in. I am still working on it today. I would commonly say that I have been working on my house for 25 years. But that doesn’t mean that every day..or even every month of those 25 years I have worked on the house.

        What it means is that I started 25 years ago and have not finished it. It does not mean that the only thing I’ve done over the past 25 years is work on this house. Some years I may not have worked on it at all.

        To me that statement simply means that from the time he started working on the poem until he finished it was 15 years…seems simple to me. Sometimes I think people look for the most difficult solutions to problems.

    • I have spent well over a year trying to figure out the first step….So Forrest is a bad architect or I am a bad builder….either way Ill pay someone to build my new home once the treasure is found 🙂

        • Yeah… I am from Philly so I its probably just me wanting a connection…like manifest destiny or something….but have you heard the connections I have stated before on the blog about clues that I think connect the chase to that area??

    • Dal,

      Whole heartily agree with both analogies. We have the poem, it holds the directions to build from….it holds the ingredients to use…we are told to follow the instruction precisely.

      With that said, we still need to know what a 2×4 is to a 2×6 or olive oil to vegetable oil. If not we will end up with the desired goal. So, what is it we are making or building?

      I know most believe there are physical locations that must be traveled, But it could be the poem is only a set of instruction that lead to one physical spot or the final produce, if you will. The “start at the beginning” may just be, Start with understanding what a 2×4 and olive oil are.

      Just seeing the cake on the table from a different angle.

    • dal, I completely agree with your assessment of Forrest. Everything about him seems to shout “organization”. (good trait for an archaeologist)

      Re: the picture of his closet……Given his penchant for organization, and his architectural abilities, why would there be two pairs of shoes on the bench behind him, rather than being placed in the obviously well-organized shoe rack?? Nothing else is out of place. What does that say? (picky,picky, I know.) I’ll probably get skinned for this, but there appears to be a picture in a picture!! 🙂

      Thanks for hosting and for all you and goofy do!!!

        • Quite possible, Miz Pallies!! But I don’t think so. And forgive me if I mislead you, I am not confused about anything Chase related.

          I just found it curious, out of all the posts about the closet, that none addressed the one glaring oddity in the picture….well two really, the shoes behind him and the very obvious hole in the middle of the rack where the other shoes are situated! 🙂

          Thank you for your response……..loco

          • Spallies, loco -I noticed and commented that there were 9 pair of shoes on the rack, thinking it was a reference to nine clues. But in hindsight, I truly believe Mr. Fenn was simply letting us inside his life, showing us he’s not perfect or a hero. I really like his relaxed smile on the adjacent photo with the blue jeans. I’ll bet he’s a regular, really nice guy and tired of being Mr. Treasure. The biggest oddity to me is why he’s not in the larger recliner with his feet up. Actually, I would trade in future looking just to be his friend. Getting tired of the whole clue solving thing myself.

          • @42: Yes the 9 pair were obvious, as well as what they represent.
            What I am curious about is what the resulting configuration of the remaining shoes depicts.(it is something that, while not central, plays prominently in a solution I am looking at.
            I believe he was drawing attention to that by allowing the other shoes to be seen in the picture.
            As for as the chair: mainly I think he was reinforcing what the configuration depicts and secondly, force of habit. That is the chair he sits in daily to put on and remove his shoes…..The recliner was brought in strictly for the picture. IMO

            Thank you for your response, 42. And I am sorry you are tired of the clue solving. I thought that was what the blog was about??………..loco

          • I had forgotten there were nine shoes in this picture… When this first came out I always wondered what he was looking at on the other side of the closet? Maybe some more Clovis posters???

    • The architect analogy is good. But could there have been a Higher Architect than Mr. Fenn influencing his hand as he wrote every carefully chosen word?

      And in a sense, we are all architects, weaving the stories of our lives, whether we write them down or not.

      Every decision we make is a brick laid down on the road of life. 🙂

  10. This project is ff’s brain child a cleverly crafted masterpiece hardly the thing a redneck could unravel. Imo

  11. I recently decided to try the theory that no line should be ignored, in the poem. I thought, what if I am missing something? And, since he took so long to write it with such skill and care, every word could have an alternative meaning than what we think it means.

    I have a lot of respect for the poem, and like everyone else, I feel like I am figuring it out. I treat every word with care, and act as if it is the most important word in the poem.

    If you built a house, and just one beam was missing, the entire thing could fall down. One misplaced plumbing pipe could mean the difference between your toilet being in the bathroom, or in the bedroom.

    So, using Dal’s house analogy, every word must be treated as precisely as each 2×4 of wood. Every beam, electrical wire, wall, plumbing fixture, door, and window must be placed exactly so. An architect would not put unnecessary walls up in a house, and I don’t believe Forrest put any unnecessary words in his poem.

  12. To me all of the mysticism and deep meaning attributed to the poem is an example of the human condition. I have noticed and agree with others who have written that whenever we humans are confronted with things we cannot explain, we generally attribute those things to “magic”.

    Religion is a pretty good example. We started out asking two basic questions…the same two questions every 8 year old struggles with:
    1. Why are we here?
    2. Why do we die?

    The clues to the answers for those questions are all around us. But they are very hard to accept. We like to think humans are more important than a walnut or a horse fly. So our beginnings and ends must also be more important..

    There must be a god or gods. There must be a heaven…or reincarnation or eternal life or whatever…and the next thing you know we are sacrificing goats, blessing water and swallowing the blood and body of Christ.

    I think the solutions to the poem for some are a great deal like this. If we cannot figure it out, it must be magic. So we begin looking at flutterbies and rainbows and covering up Philadelphia with a thumb, as signs…symbology..
    Humans are good at this. We have been taught to do this by our god-fearing folks and other influences since we were born. It is natural for us…

    But in my humble opinion this is not how the poem was designed. Forrest did not say the poem was designed by a magician or a by the hand of god. He told us that an architect wrote it. A very real occupation. An architect starts out with nothing more than an idea and in the end has created a useful building for humans to occupy.

    • Dal,

      The circle of life begins with the child and ends with an adult.

      1. Why are we here? Because we didn’t ask to be. It was decided for us.
      2. Why do we die? To keep the circle of life going.

      Life is the empirical “engine”. It must be refueled before it dies.

      Do we remember the day we were born? Of course not. Will we remember the day we die? I think not.

      The “white light” at the end of the tunnel, is nothing more than a spark in the engine.

      As far as architect is concerned, IMPO, He was an architect in putting together the Thrill of the Chase. The poem was crafted for the Chase itself.

      • The circles I see do not have a beginning or end. If they did they wouldn’t be a circle. Same with life–no ends, just transformations.

      • Dal & German, I appreciate your always well spoken logic and respect your personally held beliefs. Like you I believe Forrest designed TTOTC for the chase itself. That said, what’s missing from your discussion above are references to Forrest stating in public interviews that he considers himself a very spiritual person; and in the memoirs that he rebelled against the idea that his life ended with physical death. Those statements logically lead me to the conclusion that Forrest either believes in or hopes his spirit will live on past physical death. “IF” that is the case, imo his solve and hiding place could reflect the spiritualism Forrest adheres to and could be more complex than following point A to point B.

        • 42-
          No disagreement from me. But my language would be different. I would simply say that Forrest intends to have his name spoken aloud for a few thousand years.

          It has been written that you are finally dead when the last person alive who knew you dies.

          I think Forrest is taking steps to insure that he beats those odds.

          • Agree with you sir, and for that matter Dal as long as the Internet exists, your name will live on in history next to Forrest’s. It’s a good thing you do here recording history and exchanging ideas. Heck, maybe if I came out from behind “42” people would remember my name for a few hundred years too.

          • LOL!! No doubt, dal, no doubt!!

            I’m betting that the location where the chest is found will, in some manner, be named after Fenn.

            The location, along with some or all of the locations of the clues, will be added to the travelogue…..each will be pointed out to the people as they pass by.

            So yeah, pretty sure he’s beat the odds!!!

          • Dal* I do not agree with you in this regard. I think the whole idea of “The thrill of the chase” is for his dad, and not for him. My contention is that he thought of a way to make his dad’s name famous , and whenever you would search in the Internet you would find it in every search engine. It my opinion.RC

        • On a side note:

          When my father had cancer he reached deep and decided that heaven is when your loved ones think about/remember you.

          To him that was heaven.

          I think about/remember him every day so I know he is in -his- heaven.

          Maybe, it is differet for everyone like the fingerprints??? I don’t know…

          • Many have seen that white light and lived to tell about it. Its something you never forget, regardless if anyone believes in it.

            I am wondering if Forrest saw the light too? 🙂

    • Mr Fenn is both the architect and the gardner and with that we have a mix of engineering and magic. Some day we will all see that!

      The Wolf

      • Ha!! @ The Wolf: Although I fear we agree on very little else 🙂 , I definitely agree that fenn is both architect and gardener!!
        As far as gardening, he is a master horticulturist. He waters and fertilizes, and prunes sparingly, when necessary!!

        (how’s the vortex treating you guys??)

    • As Dal mentioned ff is an organized person. If we watched him trying to solve his own poem, I bet the first step we would see him take is to check the cement in the foundation to see where it was made.

    • Dal, I appreciate your thoughtful analysis about how/why you think Forrest used the term architect and your observations about our propensity to see magic when we can’t find obvious explanations for “mysteries”. The architect statement that Forrest made has puzzled me but I think you have nailed it on the head. In short, it makes sense. From what I can guestimate from the various things that Forrest has written is that he is very spiritual, although his spirituality is not the kind that is anchored in “otherworldly” dogma but rather, the kind of spirituality that sees the divine that exists all around us, especially when its experienced in nature and not as easily experienced on the couch. Some people are comforted with the prospect of seeing and being with God in heaven after they die. Others find God all around them in life (heaven–and hell). My guess is that Forrest’s views are closer to the latter. My only disagreement is that I do think that “a thumb” is helpful (as is a frog) in deciphering the poem and finding the treasure but I do agree that they aren’t symbols.

    • Dal you made a lot of common sense in what you said… Not only what a child ask at 8, But what humans ave asked since we became.

      The when, where, why and how’s of man kind. which all revolve around, as germanguy said, The circle of life begins with the child and ends with an adult.

      Magic is an illusion. It can also be called superstition, at least in the explaining of, the unexplainable.

      I’d better go check on the goats now….

    • Forrest also said that a searcher may want to bring a sand witch and a flashlight on the search.

      Forrest asked you Dal , to take a shadow picture of yourself with a sand witch in hand.

      Yes , you thought it was just a walking stick that you were representing.

      What you were representing was the Phantom carrying a Sand Witch.

      The only other to have seen where the chest was hidden.

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=McoNvuTnFEQ&list=UUoxdolmlSQ95-1lrjDZMZ4Q

        • I still have my copy of A Treasure’s trove… I was a bit late to the party and never found any of the beautiful jewels. But I had a lot of fun:)

        • I believe f said the book wrote itself. I think the poem took years to ‘perfect’. I only

          Ritt: if Sloane knew then perhaps we know where the end of f’s rainbow is, on his mural. But geographically where? I have tried to locate it with certainty but anything close is in Utah.

    • Dal ,
      Sir , first You are one of the most humble men I’ve ever herd from, Second I love logic and Physics and third I have a lot to learn as far as diplomacy is concerned, so please forgive my harshness of my words I’m under educated and express my self differently
      . For us to exist from nothing and have no reason to exist is against all Physics. Why ?
      Causality for example. To have a purpose to be here.
      Dal,
      Do you have a purpose? To exist I mean?
      My question, dose this Earth need us to Exist?
      No …. It dose not. Dose man need this Earth to exist? Yes
      So, my point is we are the consumer , and the Earth a provider , in such We are negative energy , due to we consume from the Earth and dissipate or pass on. The Earth on the other hand , Continues to provide the energy it take for Man to exist and continues to do so for millions of years. Which in Physics what is done to one side of the equation must be done to the other.
      Equations are built by what we could call a Architect. So for both these energies to exist at the same time and place, 2 be used by each other in a positive and negative atmosphere are what is refer to as Physics. And is considered in math as E eternal energy. This is why I love that Mr. Fenn quotes “Imagination is Greater than Knowledge” I applause that statement and would love to add E=IK
      This equation is in Albert Estines papers If I recall correctly they are referred to as the miracle papers. Just a small thought.

    • And what is one thing architects excel at? Geometry…and math.
      No magic-just the mystery of numbers added, multiplied, subtracted or divided until they form a golden rectangle, spiral, ratio, or Pyramid.
      Too bad I stink at math. 🙂

      • Mindy, If we could view the poem wearing forrest’s 3-D glasses I think we would see what you’ve just described with a pyramid of layers incorporating math, geometry, symetry, dates, music, and a beautiful array of symbolism my average mind can’t begin to conceive.
        Forrest is so understated in his abilities that I think we underestimate the elegance and intricacy that are disguised in surface simplicity. Ive only scratched the surface but glimpsed a layer or two.

    • Dal

      Let us not forget where the treasure was found in the national treasure movie. Deep under a church…now we know the treasure isn’t associated with any structure but the paralel here is pretty clear.

      Church of the Holy Trinity is an Episcopal church on Rittenhouse Square in Philadelphia.

  13. what do we know about the creator of the chase?
    1)Born in the south, in Texas
    2)spent summers in Yellowstone
    3)Fighter pilot
    4)Art collector
    5)likes Native American culture
    6)likes the simple things in life

    and what I conclude from this is that F is the most interesting man on Earth….but that just throws everyone off of the simple, hidden in plain sight place where the chest is hidden….IMO

    • Wow,
      All this time I thought that guy in the beer commercial was the most interesting…..

      • I said that in Jest Philly, Here’s a question, what if you never knew of FF or the book, Just the poem on a piece of paper…No after the fact statements, comments, video etc.

        with out know what you just stated… could you solve the poem?

        • No sir or ma’am or just seeker,
          but wheres the fun in that for me? I have to make things overly difficult, its the way I am…

    • And here is what we suspect about the most interesting architect of the chase IMO:

      He is a high functioning savant with a near perfect memory. Speaks multiple languages, may read books upside down, hes an artist, craftsman, mason, can read bloggers minds, has a bit of a dark side or shadow personality, he’s a neat freak with purpose, has a blue jeans fetish, doesn’t like to tie shoes, holds secret Phd’s in anthropology and playing chess against multiple players, surveyed the west and remembers EVERY rock, canyon and stream he’s ever seen. Loves everything about NA culture, has helped hundreds of people, especially children and vets. Ok, what suspicions do you have that I missed?

      • Im not much of a drinker or poker player but would enjoy drinking a shot and a playing a round of poker with FF, just not in that order!! 🙂

      • Friends with famous actors, U.S. Senators, and first ladies. He puts the Dos Equis man to shame.

        • Ha really…. “Forrest Fenn was shot down in Vietnam, just so his enemies could meet him…he is the most interesting man on Earth..”

          • Skippy holding a boulder and with my treasures bold. Was thinking about the rock connection. Actually I really like the stories about Skippy. He seems like a creative genius to me. A mad scientist of sorts. I know a kid much like him. He has horse sense but is extremely smart.

        • Sean, and he made friends with the enemy and purchased his sandals made of tires. Perhaps Forrest wore those sandals when he hid the chest “did it tired”

      • Let’s not forget the fact that he has lived through some of life’s deepest sorrows (deaths of his mother, father, brother, and sister), and did not let those sorrows take him out. He’s a cancer survivor. He’s seen the real, up close horrors of war, and still writes his stories with a kind of childlike whimsy. That’s what I admire.

        • Mindy, you’ve only to watch Forrest on an interview quoting Lewis Carroll’s the little crazy ocodile to know that he’s maintained child like whimsey and is a very, caring person.

    • Haha…I was trying to think of what beer that was but couldnt think of it….I bet Forrest drinks Scotch at room temperature or some bad ace drink along those lines….

      • clues-
        In one of the pics on the Green Grass post you can see part of his bookshelf where he has a bottle of Fenn Tequila.

        • ha yeah and for some reason I dont see him licking sugar off his hand, taking a shot, than sucking on a lime…I see him casting a caddis fly out with a light flurry of late fall snow, reaching in his pocket for a flask, taking a swill then saying “I love Merica’!”

    • Philly, When Forrest drinks a beer it must be Moose Drool. But his martini comment is a nice hint in my opinion.

  14. Dal,
    Very philosophical ideas today. Kinda cuts right to the bone so to speak. I can’t say for sure, but I do think that Forrest had a good reason to use the word “architect” in describing how he wrote the poem. His comment about using the word colloquially confirms it. IMO. For my solution it lays the foundation…

  15. Maybe the Poem was created with only one intent of a straight forward approach. I think it is but I also think there is more. This thread should help us all.

    Every letter and punctuation mark is placed precisely to bring about the directions and yet have a visually pleasing appearance. When I center out the poem my eyes are drawn to lines 13 & 14. Why? Could it be that those are the two longest lines centered in the poem– each have 31 letters that just happened to appear as he wrote. Maybe– but I suggest this is no coincidence.

    I stared at a picture the other day for several minutes and couldn’t figure it out until someone said the word helicopter. It was a helicopter on a mountain top. All I saw was a green blob. I am thinking the visual appearance of the poem may eventually appear in the same way. Just looking for that key word.

    I can’t believe he would have written a poem for fifteen years and not left his personal signature in it (somehow). Mr. Mojo Risen gave me this idea.
    Maybe not.
    Any thoughts about the two lines?

    • After I posted and reading my comments I had another idea about lines 13 &14. For some reason the thought just came to mind again. The words “upside down” make many appearances in TTOTC. Why? Just to tell the stories or a type of subliminal reference. How does 1413 N. Main fit in?
      These two lines remind me of Omegas, roads, paths, trails, or tracks that are side by side (doubles). 31 +31 = 62. I cannot remember half of what I read but 31 feet is a midpoint distance when measuring cant on a 62 foot segment.
      I don’t have any idea how this could help with Architecture of the poem but somehow it might be a building block to figuring it out.
      I asked the question and just thought of it so I figured I would share.

      Running in circles. Have a good chuckle (1942).

      Does anyone else see another face in the painting (when turned upside down) on page 104 TTOTC?
      Does anyone know the artist? Mr. Fenn?

      I just proved to myself its time for a long break.

      Are those lions?

      • Safety Joe – I’d like to respond to your questions about the painting on page 104 in TTOTC without shouts of laughter from the online peanut gallery. I believe it’s an early portrait by Nikolai Fechin, although no positive confirmation in my research. Fits his earlier work in Russia but brushstrokes are more detailed than his later portraiture.
        Yes, I see the ghost face and limp arm/hand depicted in the veil. The whole chapter is a silent cry of sadness and perhaps a reference to the death of a child.

        Now, for the tomatoes thrown at me by the peanut gallery… The poem turned upside down could represent a person on an upside down cross with lines 13/14 being the cross bar. With some Biblical knowledge one could write a metaphorical solve with Christ being the blaze or trail, home of brown the cross which bridges a canyon, etc. Upside down would be a reference to Peter or other disciples who asked to be crucified upside down as they were unworthy to die as the Lord had. Upside down could also be a reference to F’s view of society having things turned the wrong way, or if he is dyslexic, a ref. to reading books upside down.

        Here’s my disclaimer: all just off beat ideas and not my opinion that the poem depicts a cross. Forrest has said outright that it’s to be a fun family thing and he’s not religious.

        • 42-
          Thank for responding. Through research I have found that many artist paint Lady with Mandolin and include their own self expression besides just brush strokes. As I was reading the TTOTC upside down I noticed that if I placed my thumb over the Ladies mouth I could see a smile on her forward. The whole face then appears. I was thinking the artist painted his face first then the Ladies face. A signature of sorts which only the artist would know about (his own little secret/signature.) I guess we will never know. I also see the veil and ghostly hands.
          I don’t see anything of a religious nature. Doesn’t mean it’s not there.
          I was thinking this picture (page 104) may be another way for Mr. Fenn to convey –Find what’s hidden in my poem.

          I didn’t think anyone would dare respond to my last post. Just another way to “think outside the box.”
          Which might mean something all together different then it implies.

          • “…Smile on forehead’–I do read more than once before I post. I’ll start using a word doc before I post.

          • I guess I need to go buy the book (TTOTC). I bought Too far to Walk already… Thought it might be better to read them backwards….

          • Safety & Spallies

            IMO: TOTC content and undertones in the poem are F’s equivalent of artistic symbolism like the Lady with mandolin painting on 104. – the expression of an idea hidden in a realistic description of the natural world with a conviction that reality parallels nature rather than replicates it. (Philosophy of some late 19th century artists and earlier poets)

            It’s there in spades, but figuring it all out as Forrest meant it may be impossible unless he publishes Cliff notes. That’s all for me today. Have fun all!!

  16. I think the most important issue within this thread is to determine once and for all what Forrest Fenn meant when he said to somebody “don’t mess with my poem.”

    I think people misunderstood his meaning and the context surrounding that phrase.

    • How so Muset? I wish he didnt say that, it would make it more fun to mash up the whole poem to try to find the 9 clues….

      • I think the person who was messing with the poem at the time wanted to change a word or two, and maybe change the capitalization of other words.

        If the puzzle is in the form of 24 full-line anagrams, then messing with the poem that way would make it unsolvable.

        It’s no secret that I’ve been trying to solve the poem using full-line anagrams. If Mr. Fenn explicitly says there are no anagrams in the solution, I’d love to spill all the good ones I’ve made– and I have hundreds.

        • I don’t think he said that there isn’t an anagram. I have played the poem also, and see the anagrams. Fenn mentioned encription. Not the same thing. If there are anagrams, the statement don’t mess with it just means solve the anagrams correctly. That’s all I’ll say about it.

        • If you want to ask the person who ff told don’t mess with my poem I’d ask Dal…

  17. Interesting subject; I suppose we should start with Fenn’s statement about the poem being written by an architect:

    Well, you know…let me put this in perspective. So many people have decided they’re going to take a picnic lunch out on Sunday and look for the treasure…or something to do over spring break. I’m lookin’ at a hundred years down the road…a thousand years, maybe ten thousand years down the road. It took me 15 years to write the poem. I’ve changed it so many times and I’ve said before that I didn’t write that poem…it was written by an architect…each word is deliberate.

    At the same event (Collected Works) he said: When I wrote that poem, I wasn’t playing any games. It’s straightforward.

    I sometimes wonder if we are going down the wrong track trying to fit the poem to Fenn’s personality. To me Fenn is a “fly by the seat of his pants” type guy. He literally flew a plane this way telling stories about how bad he did in pilot’s school with the “book learning”; but he was the best pilot in the squadron. He was a natural born pilot; the machine became part of him. This is difficult to explain if you haven’t experienced it.

    Story after story Fenn just decides to do something and works out the details later; the move to Santa Fe, starting an art gallery, his exploits as a kid, the Russian art exhibit, and on and on. He relies on hard work and his ability to adapt to the situation. He seems to have an uncanny ability to know when to stop and not push beyond his capabilities; he bumps the curbs but doesn’t leave the road. Most successful people (at anything) have this instinct; the others end up in a “how dumb is this” video on you tube. Sometimes the road less traveled leads straight over a cliff.

    When he said he didn’t write the poem he’s telling the truth; in the sense that every step, every word, and every sentence is planned and pondered and tested over and over until it’s perfect. This is not his “normal” way of doing things.

    One part of Fenn’s personality I think we should consider. This will be difficult for the over emotional, huggy bunch, Zen type folks to understand. All fighter pilots and most successful people have the ability to compartmentalize. They focus on the task at hand and are not encumbered by anything else around them. This ability can make them seem cold and uncaring; which is not the case.

    What was the task at hand when the architect wrote the poem? In my opinion the poem is a very difficult but straight forward set of directions to get to his special spot. That’s it; no emotion, no deep mystical meaning, no statements on society, nothing but a set of instructions that a comprehensive knowledge of geography and a good map might help.

    Fenn the marketing genius knows he has to get people’s attention to hear what he is saying and sharing. He is using the chest to do that. In all of humankind’s history only twelve men have walked on the moon. How many can you name?

    Our great grand kids will probably give a blank stare when asked about the Apollo space program…….but they will know everything about Fenn while trying to find his chest of gold.

    If you think this is the goofiest opinion you’ve ever read………just consider the source.

      • On the $ Goofy.

        And don’t let that southern gentleman’s drawl lull you, there’s a steely competitor beneath.

    • Good thinking Goofy. When trying to understand what someone means by what they say, it is sometimes helpful to decide what they are deliberately NOT saying. The more I examine the poem, the more inclined I am to see the poem as straight forward but very much the “bare bones”. Much like an architects plans, you wouldn’t confuse the plans with the real thing–they are merely representational. Some plans are more detailed than others.The analogy can only be taken so far of course. In this case, he certainly did not want his poem to be easily unraveled and solved quickly. The plan (poem) is purposely sparse and selective. My guess is that it took a long time to write because he had to strike a delicate balance between giving away too much and making the challenge impossible. I don’t think there are mystical references, hidden messages, or secret codes involved. I do think however that trying to understand Forrest is important to narrow down where he readily decided to hunker down when he became ill in the 1980’s and first thought of hiding this chest. I think your discussion of his personality is helpful. Nicely done.

    • Goofy,
      I would love to debate you on your post, you know I like a good debate…But I can’t. The quote you presented as well as your thoughts, say a lot. maybe more than you think, as you said, “will be difficult for the over emotional, huggy bunch, Zen type folks to understand.”

      There has to be part of a searcher not only to willing to solve the poem, but seek the answers. Dedication is need for this, not obsession.

      “I’m lookin’ at a hundred years down the road…a thousand years, maybe ten thousand years down the road. It took me 15 years to write the poem.” That’s dedication.

      Fenn had those thoughts in mind when writing the poem. I personally give the poem the respect of that statement. I could never imagine what it will be like in a 1000 – even 10,000 years down the road. But IMO the poem’s answers were “designed” survive that long… maybe a bit more difficult, but still useful. if not found before.

      Yep, nice post Goofy.

  18. Does anyone recall Forrest ever talking about an Enigma Machine?
    Maybe I dreamed it, idk. It was about the Navajo code talkers…
    It was a long time ago. Probably about 3 years…?

    • Barbara-
      I don’t think there is anything on this blog about the Enigma Machine…
      I do make reference to the Enigma Machine in my presentation about Forrest and treasure hunting…
      Did you come to one of those?

      • No Dal… Never been to any of your presentations unfortunately. I thought I saw it on a video clip. Oh well, my imagination is working overtime again. I guess I’m losing it. Thanks

        • pieces-
          Not tied directly to anything Forrest said or did in my presentation and I believe WiseOne mentioned that she was simply checking to see if there was any reference.

  19. IMO there is a particular type of structure to the poem if one can find it…

    FF knew the perfect hiding place from long ago…He designed and built the poem around this place using specific yet common words and then enclosed it within other words hiding it from view by altering the design in an inconspicuous manner…

    There exists a design within the design…The daring and cleverness of a maverick architect whose only tool was a pen…

      • No Clayton…He found it during his days of roaming the west, digging in every cave and ruin he could find…And after his settling in NM and starting his gallery…

  20. After a long day at work, I just enjoy reading something that allows my mind to free itself for a few moments. The Poem does that for me, as do the scrapbooks. I just enjoy the words, the pictures, the similes.

  21. Hey all… new to the hunt. Just got his books about 2 weeks ago and have been completely immersed in them when I’m not working at the Arsenal here in Virginia. I’ve read so much information from Forrest, interviews, and all of you, and its at that point when one realizes to true scope of difficulty in finding a 10x10x5 box within 4 states. I have noticed there are ways of thinking that I have not encountered yet by searchers. Perhaps some of you just deem it too important information to give out, and to be honest, it’s the same reason I won’t give it out. 😛

    But I can maybe help you with a few things….

    1. It is an extremely high probability (90+%) that “Home of Brown” is NOT a house, or family home. Fenn has stated that the most of the places of the clues existed when he was a kid (my thoughts are the blaze being the exception), and he thinks they’ll exist in a 100 years. I’ve built homes for 15 years and I can tell you its hard for a house or home to be standing after 170 years. The % that that could happen is horrible. FF would know this, as he has stated that he’s tried to think of every contingency when making the poem, to ensure the clues stay valid and the chest remains undisturbed where he put it through the course of time.

    2. The first Stanza of the poem BEFORE WWWH, is important. There is something there that will aid your research, but unfortunately I cannot divulge it. I will tell you this…. something in the first stanza will help you narrow the search area greatly. Good luck with working on that part.

    3. If Forrest said “Don’t mess with his poem, then its highly possible that anagrams are “off the table”. HOWEVER, if we are perceiving that statement from him incorrectly then, anagrams are acceptable…and so is anything else. Like rearranging words to alter a line’s meaning ….”It is fun to arrange words in such a way that you have to smile at the end of a sentence.” -FF. Or perhaps the words are actually not the words you thought they were (think like a Redneck Texan)

    4. “Not Far but Too Far To Walk” – Don’t try to treat this as a distance dilemma, instead maybe consider it to be an “ABILITY” issue? Just a thought.

    —————————————

    Within 3 days of reading his book and studying the poem I came up with a solution(if followed precisely) will take you to the area of finding the “blaze” . All of the clues up to that, fit perfectly. They are even supported by at least 3 to 4 hints in the book. Or at least this is my belief. My mother used to give me scavenger hunts when I was a child for my Bday and Easter on slips of paper written in the same fashion as FF has done. This poem really excites me for the nostalgia of that reason alone. But I am a grown man and I understand how Pareidolia works. Google it and you too will understand, how you can be your own worst enemy in solving this. Forrest even hinted in his book the importance of slamming the door shut on a relationship and starting over. Think of this poem as that “relationship”. So I’ll keep starting over and racking up as many possible solutions as I can over the winter and then next summer … its on. So fair warning to you all… You have 8 months to find it, before I come out there from Virginia to keep a promise I made to a old wise man. Good luck in your search.

    Will

    • Iron Will,

      A bit cocky, warning all us searcher…. But… then again Cocky may be the right element to solve the poem. Unfortunately your “help” is nothing new… at least where I’m standing. Maybe, Just a suggestion, home of Brown, may not be a House or Family home But you may not want to rule out Habitation.

      Waiting to see what ya have in 8 months. Good luck.

      • Oh, Sorry didn’t intend for it to sound “cocky”. I am just very confident when it comes to this subject. I have been solving scavenger hunts since I was a child. I have been analyzing and postulating numbers, hypothetical situations, and possible outcomes to varied subject matter since I was 18 and in the U.S. Infantry. I guess I can say that it has evolved into my “hobby” from nothing more than an innocent game, and has had a small amount of “control” over my life for more than 25 years. If next summer comes and I cannot find it, I will not say that I cannot complete Forrest’s quest. I will simply point out that I found other paths to a different kinds of “treasure”. It may seem like excuses or ramblings of just another trove hound, but I can tell you that something I just said is important.

        • Iron will,

          Welcome! Good luck to you and try to ignore any negativity. I have been on 3 searches myself, hopefully 4 in the upcoming weeks! Each time I was very confident and I always post post my possible solutions(after I search, if possible) not to brag or validate my ideals but to possibly help someone else. I just want the d*** thing found by anyone! If my thoughts can help or give ideals, then great! I personally think it is just as possible for someone brand new to the search to come up with the right approach and find it immediately. Those who have spent years doing intense research and still have no treasure chest may be bitter and threatened by that possibility. Best wishes!!!

          • I feel the same way, Michelle. If I’m going to search, I’m going to search with the integrity Mr. Fenn wanted. And also for the purpose he intended.

    • Sounds like a bit of the same old same old Iron Will. Who knows, maybe your turn will produce something different. I remember my first spin around the block w/ Fenn’s poem all too well. The excitement and adrenaline and mad dashes to my spot. Man, that first month was a doozy! Now a couple of years later, my excitement is tempered by the reality of just how small that box is, and how clever the hider is. My solve has me hovering over the same small area and I feel good just biding my time and planning carefully for the next leg…Treasure or not, this Quest has sparked the imaginations of many folks from all over. I wish you and all others the best of luck and be safe out there !

      • Email me Ironwilly@gmail.com if you’d like to discuss this, I may be able to help you with your “process” by playing devil’s advocate. If not, I understand…. there is always greed to consider in any offer of human interaction.

        • Hey Will,
          I do appreciate your interest in my process, truly. I personally only use this blog to stay in tune w/Forrest’s latest news and to gauge where others may be. Honestly, not one stitch of my solution has been gleaned from another searcher or their ideas. I do admit however, that some of the things I see from Forrest have cast some light on the direction I am headed. For me, greed is only something I see around me. I just choose not to participate…

        • Iron will

          We might be on the same path .
          That was some information u put out there. I will begin my journey in 7 months. It will be my last . I will stay a whole week 7 days to look for the chest. 🙂
          Patience is great 🙂

          • Hello Amy. Can I give you one point of advice? Never say it will be your last. Not unless you are going to die in 7 months and 8 days. To say it will be your last is to give up on HOPE and BELIEF, and that is the entire reason I am attempting to find this treasure. I have faith that you won’t give up on those two foundations of life. 😛 After all …. I should have a Master’s in HOPE and BELIEF… I’ve been an NFL Cardinals fan for 38 years! 😛

    • Hello Will… Welcome! It looks as if you may have an edge on us…
      And thanks for your insight.
      I understand what you are saying. I don’t believe I am as experienced as you in seeing how to solve this quest, but I may be getting there. I was wondering if you have an opinion as to how many different ways you think there are to solving this poem… I see at least three.

      • Ooooh… I don’t see how I could EVER have an edge on the Wise One 😛 but I will give you some of my opinions, as long as everyone understands these are opinions and are not validated through the Forrest Fenn Truth Indicator. 😀

        I have personally found over 20 solutions in 2 weeks, however, almost every one of those had to put up with a certain amount of “stretching” within one or two clues. I do not like to “stretch” the clues to make them fit because Forrest said “Precisely”. And ALL of them only lead me to the area of the “blaze”. This concerns me because Forrest said it will lead you DIRECTLY to the treasure. Now I recently heard him saying that no human trail is within very close proximity to the treasure. I feel someone needs to ask him (ahem…Dal) what “very close proximity” means to him in terms of distance. Because without that, people could possible give up on a winning path to the treasure all because they saw a “human path” a certain distance from where they think it is.

        But on from there, if you want to talk about the different ways to see the poem or “hunt” then lets jump into it.

        – One way is the classical Scavenger hunt where words have secondary meanings that lead to proper solutions, using landmarks on a map.

        – Another way is the typical Pirates Treasure Map method, where the poem is DIRECT directions to the spot, however the clues are “somewhat” encrypted. The idea is to think how you would solve a pirate treasure map, then work every possible method available to your imagination to glean correct information out of the stanzas. (I have done this in the second stanza, however am stuck in the third stanza in continuing the trek)

        – oh! here is a big opinion… Brown. Not a trout, Not a Hatchery. At this point I feel people need to let go of that. Hatcheries do not last 170 years, and Brown Trout are everywhere out west…..Lemme say that again… EVERYWHERE. Look for a historical Brown location, or Brown geological landmark or gravestone, since cemetaries have a habit of outlasting the homes that their occupants lived in.

        – yet another way to solve this poem, is through the use of number coding, but it is in my opinion that you rule that out. Forrest Fenn stated that he is playing no games with people, ..the poem is straight forward. This tells me that codes and anagrams have no place here.

        …..in closing on this Wise One, I can say that I have seen videos and posts of people who claim to know where the treasure is, and they describe their solution ( I think an effort to validate their own way of thinking), and I secretly chuckle at the lengths they will go to “stretch” the clues. I guess what Im trying to say is that I hope you all understand that if you have to STRETCH a clue in the poem to fit YOUR solution…. then maybe YOUR solution is not the RIGHT ONE.

        Will

        • I am reading back through these threads two years later but whenever I read something that isn’t accurate IMO I will maybe pipe up. Trouts aren’t everywhere out west. They aren’t in warm water.

        • I went into a 3 day coma at the age of 7 from 105.3 temperature and an ice bath at the hospital from Meningitus. I thankfully recovered (too stubborn to die I guess), went home, and that fall in October Sunday football was starting, and it was snowing outside. I climbed up and looked out the window at the half snow covered front yard watching two Cardinal foraging for food( Virginia is the Cardinal State so we have alot), and my dad said the game was about to come on. Was the Redskins vs the St. Louis Cardinals. I turned around in time to see that white helmet with a red majestic cardinal on it clanging into the redskin helmet…. and to answer you question… that’s all it took. I think that 7 year old boy has been waiting and hoping all of these years that his loyalty and hope will teach him a lesson that few people rarely see in their lifetime.

          • Sorry Will, I just read the NFL predictions for today and it seems the Rams are favored to topple the soaring Cards…I’ll root for you. My team is off today.

          • That’s an interesting story! Thanks for sharing. I’m not much of a football fan anymore but I do enjoy watching Cardinal baseball. I also enjoy watching the cardinal (birds). I have a pair that’s been coming to my yard for many years, One year the female got some kind of disease or feather problem (alopecia/mites?) and she lost almost all her feathers. She looked pretty bad. But her faithful, loving mate did not care that she looked the way she did. He would bring food to her. Sometimes it kind of looked like they were kissing cause I never could see any food there. I’ve never seen any other species of adult birds doing that. Anyway, It took a long time for her feathers to come back and when they did, they came in white. Very strange looking… They still come to my yard and i know when I see one, the other is not too far away.

          • Well, Iron Will… You got your Cardinal Win against the Rams! And there even was a “Brown” that ran into the end zone! (HOB).

          • LOL yeah it was a beautiful ending to that game. I just wished Palmer hadn’t been hurt 🙁

      • Mind if I ask a couple questions will?

        Your comment on Human Trail made me think of a Q&A where [ Paraphrasing ] Fenn was ask, if any knowledge of US history was needed… ? The answer was No. What conclusion, thought or ideas do you get from that?

        Close Proximity a side. The full Q&A can be found on Mysterious Writings, which you can find a link to at the bottom of this blog.

        Are you looking at the poem as a set of direction, not unlike following a map or another method altogether?

        Just curious.

        • Hey Seeker…

          – about U.S. History. And this is sheer honesty not diversion. EVERYTHING on any map in the United States came about through U.S. History. Every creek, every mountain, every canyon has a history as to it’s namesake. Either Forrest misunderstood the scope of the question, or he is simply wrong. I don’t remember that Q&A but let me give you an example. Lets say it was “Below the home of the Kid” and everyone has figured out that it leads you to south of Billy the Kid’s gravesite. Well, for you to even understand that you had to have a knowledge of U.S. History about Billy the Kid.

          – I’ve enjoyed Mysterious Writings…I urge whoever controls it to KEEP pestering Forrest for more clues 😛

          – at this point, until I exhaust all of my solutions next summer…. a set of direction using landmarks interpreted in the poem. I do have another method I am working on(remember Ive only been doing this for 2 weeks), but cannot comment in depth.

          • Just putting in a thought…. While someone may not need history, he did say you need Geography. Just wondering, has anyone looked up that word. It’s not what you think and it has a pretty big meaning. The whole meaning of that comment made me laugh.

        • Will,
          I enjoy a good discussion / debate

          You said, “And this is sheer honesty not diversion. EVERYTHING on any map in the United States came about through U.S. History. Every creek, every mountain, every canyon has a history as to it’s namesake.
          “Either Forrest misunderstood the scope of the question, or he is simply wrong.”

          Really? “any map”… you maybe correct on any map in the “United States” came about through “US history.” although I could argue that many US maps are copies of maps from others…

          But are they the Only maps available of the search area? How long has the United States existed?! Are you disregarding previous history ?

          Is your time scale of the poem only related to the present day? Namesakes of Mountains and rivers canyons etc. etc. had many different names by many culture long before The USA was even twinkle in Miss Liberty’s eyes. I don’t think fenn is the one mistaken.

          But hey like I said, I like a good debate. Maybe it will help both of us in the long run…

          • Oh I see what you are trying to get at….

            and my answer would be…

            What are the odds that all 9 clues in his poem are found using a map that is in no way associated with U.S. History. (i.e. an Indian map from 500 years ago.) Well I can tell you any Indian map from this country’s history was handed down from tribe to tribe, and when explorers and soldiers came and had interactions with those tribes, they transcribed the landmark points that were established in the days before the U.S. settled that part of the country. Therefore they were transferred into U.S. History at that point. And as it stands today, everyone views those landmarks as U.S. history, forgetting where they might have originally come from. I just don’t believe Forrest would put out a poem who’s answers are so private as to say there are only a few scant maps in the world that could decipher it.

          • Iron Will,

            Welcome to the blog. You will note from your comments, many have questioned your enthusiasm and a few support it. Don’t let that bother you. We are all here for only one purpose and that is to find the “Holy Grail” hidden by Forrest.

            Some here have forgotten what it was like to have great ideas, to only find disappointment later. You will probably experience some of those disappointments as well. Just remember, this blog is about the “Thrill of the Chase” and nothing more.

            Share in the conversation, but by all means, protect your solution from those who would only lurk in search of ideas from others. Give what you will, but remember, you can very well have a ‘perfect’ solution and if you were to reveal it, others would only question its’ validity. We all see things differently and sometimes people will be blind to the truth. Welcome aboard. 🙂

          • I could just unload here but I won’t so here goes. Forrest said the poem and the book are useful. Why is it that the book is useful? Hints the book is loaded with them and historical hints at that. Some of his public statements are shall we say challenging at best. No 3 year old is going anywhere without a lot of help. A little help my foot. Now on to what Forrest had to work with when he constructed the poem layer by layer. Let’s imagine a painter limited by certain colors in his pallete. He has to use what he has. He can’t just say oh I’ll take an ideal blaze and bingo add that to the chase. Word to the wise about the blaze…if your looking for a large rock with a white streak down the center well you may just have to wait till it snows.

          • Seeker and Iron Will,
            I really don’t see where either of you are going w/this. Forrest has said that all you need is the poem to find the chest. He has suggested a good map and hints from TTOTC might help. The meat and potatoes are in the poem… IMO

          • Ummm errr , How can I argue that logic. Any map/landmarks made by Native Americans prior to the founding of the USA is:

            “they transcribed the landmark points that were established in the days before the U.S. settled that part of the country.
            Therefore they were transferred into U.S. History at that point.”

            Does that include the French, Spanish, Mexican ones as well? known before the USA was established. just to name a few.

            You stated, “What are the odds that all 9 clues in his poem are found using a map that is in no way associated with U.S. History.”

            I can’t give you a percentage of the odds, if that is what your really asking for… But I can give you an example… Starting at the “beginning”…..prehistoric man crossed into the new world traveling down the Ice-free corridor in to the Now Know USA. Sorry Canada your out of the running.

            Just to help ya out New and old, WWWH, Canyon down, not far….The Knowledge of a path, is a map No US history needed. By the way, It’s believe that IT was not originally a human trail… just followed by.

            Here’s a fun one with a twist… WWWH the separation of H2O. no USA map needed but still needs a map with a key. you have to start at the Beginning for that as well…Little help? – AS

            I’ll stop there, I don’t want to spoil your fun.

            oh right, IMO, just saying, food for thought

          • Seeker has a valid point regarding history of US maps, especially in the western states. Current maps decended from nomadic Paleo-Indian routes and mountain passes used for 1000’s of years before white men’s maps existed.

            Early explorers, mountain men, surveyors & mappers, the first cowboys heading north all followed the routes, advice, maps, and natural blazes handed to them by the first peoples. Most of us haven’t consulted maps from 100-200 years ago although they are on-line. Forrest hints at some of the mappers and explorers in his memoirs.

            History of ancient hunting routes, and western expansion are really important to understand and layer onto modern maps we use in plotting our searches, IMO.

            Speaking of Cowboys, they’re riding the Brit range.

          • ” Starting at the “beginning”…..prehistoric man crossed into the new world traveling down the Ice-free corridor in to the Now Know USA. Sorry Canada your out of the running.” – Seeker

            Ahhh but they needed to pass right by Canada to get there, paddle or no paddle. One just can’t discount Canada that easily!!!
            The Wolf

    • Hi Will. I pretty much agree with your 4 points. My only thought about #4 is that “Not Far but Too Far To Walk” could very well relate to both ability and distance. If you don’t have the ability, any distance, even a mile, can be too far.

      I don’t know if you’ve been reading Dal’s blog for very long, but many people have stated the same things you have said here. And most people here will not reveal all their thoughts about their various solutions to what they believe are the clues so just because you haven’t read some solutions here, doesn’t mean some searchers have not thought about them. 🙂 Sounds like you will be out searching in June so good luck to you too!

      • Yes I’m sure none of this is new to EVERYONE, but I bet some of it is new to someone. That is the reason I posted it. I’m new to Dal’s blog as you’ve surmised ( didn’t know Fenn’s treasure existed 1 month ago), so I guess I’ve missed A LOT over 4 years 😀

        • you did not miss much…. its still out there for anyone who wishes to head west and figure out the riddle…

    • Aren’t the newbies cute………they remind me of all the giddy first time mothers dropping off the little one at elementary school. So much pride and excitement and tears and anxiety…….

      Then there’s the “mature” mothers that have been there done that. When they drop off the little one on the first day of school it looks much like a seal team drop off; they barely slow the van down when they open the door and throw the kid out.

      Good luck Will, save these comments you’ll get a kick out of them in a couple years; that is if you haven’t flung yourself off a cliff or been eaten by a grizzly bear.

      • Rolling on the floor Goofy! Which reminds me that I enjoy giving home made gifts at holidays. Which one of my three sons would you like?

        To TOTC newbies: hurry up and grab the TC while you still know everything. Kidding Will!

        Best of luck. We all want one to be blessed with Forrest’s treasure and reveal the true solve.

      • If you had spent even HALF the time that you use to insult intelligent and experienced men, hunting for his treasure, you’d probably found it TWICE by now. But I guess its more important for you to flail about in that elderly fashion, trying to garner that last ounce of attention and pride from all of the treasure seekers in an attempt to look hipster. For me I’ll just make the decision to add you to that long list of people with a checked box by their name. That box has a title below it….it says “Ignore”. Good luck with the rest of your life. Maybe one day life will get a kick out of you.

        • Calm down Will. I think you might be a little too thin skinned to be hunting for the treasure. If what I said got you all emotional you are going to be a mess after the poem ties you in a knot and you see what your spot looks like in the real world.

          I think fresh eyes and new opinions are a good thing……We certainly haven’t found it yet. But if you had actually spent a little time doing the research instead of arrogantly coming on here to bless us with your genius you would know your ideas have been discussed ad nauseam. And you would know that every year there are a few arrogant newbies that make complete fools of themselves.

          There are some very smart folks here with lots of experience and a wide array of ways to solve the poem. Most are willing to give you some help with your ideas. But to come on here and tell us we need to hurry because you’re a genius and figured the poem out in a couple of months will only get you laughed at.

          Good luck, you’re going to need it.

        • Welcome Will,
          Pay no attention to Goofy, he prefers dogs to people. We quietly refer to him as the “blog nazi”… “no fun of you!” lol As such you will find the people are more conservative here and there seems to be a unwritten rule to not partake in exuberance and that “The Thrill of the Chase” is something you do in the privacy of your own homes. 😉

          All in good fun, just remember, just like the poem, what goes around comes around.

          Anyway, I look forward to your comments and how you feel the word “IT” is the word that is key.

          The Wolf

          • Nah, not a Nazi…… Genghis Khan maybe. Do you think I was too rough on him?

            Exuberance is fine. The arrogance gets old fast. There’s a big difference between the two.

            Most of the geniuses don’t want any constructive criticism or other opinions; they are only here to proclaim their superior intellect.

            I don’t want to discourage new folks from making comments, but do the research first then let’s hear what they have to say. That’s another thing that will get me all up in their grill (I just learned that lately…..I’m such a hipster) is someone expecting us to be their Fenn encyclopedia because they are too lazy to do the research.

            I push the research because two people can do the same research and have a completely different interpretation. It’s important to develop a complete understanding, in my opinion, of Fenn and the chase vs. snippets of information taken out of context.

            Some say “what do you think”, but they really don’t mean that and get upset when their ideas get shredded.

            I don’t know how many times I’ve put out a truly genius idea (to me) only to have seeker and some of the others skin it alive and hang in on a fence to dry. But I’ve learned a lot and come up with more ideas after their constructive, albeit blunt, criticism. If we didn’t do that (without calling each other names) all we would have is a cheer leading squad and a complete waste of time.

            In my humble opinion.

          • I put out genius ideas all the time also, then my wife ruins it for me by correcting me 🙂

          • I have to give ” constructive, albeit blunt, criticism. ” Ya’ll don’t want to see me in a cheerleaders outfit …with MY legs!

            Well, Maybe if I could borrow fenn’s Zeebas, I might be able to pull it off then.

            Give Me an T.. Give me a T..give me an O.. give me another T.. give me a C…

            better yet…. I’ll just stick to what I know best.

          • I understand people like him Wolf, and they will continue to “blah blah blah” if I am here or not. It’s what gives their life meaning. Now that I’m over the blindsided hit, I just hit the mute button. There’s a famous saying in the world of the internet : “Don’t feed the Trolls”.

            As for “IT”, I’m not sure I should say why. As you saw before, I tried to give my view on some of the structure of the poem and I was instantly inferred to as “arrogant” and a “gloater” by the site’s creator, on my very first post. So maybe my thoughts aren’t desired here, and I’ll just sit in the background in order to see who get’s the next bullseye drawn on their back 😛

          • Iron Will,
            I understand exactly what you are thinking. You are enthusiastic and want to talk but are not sure how it will be received after you have been spanked. It takes a while to figure our where the line is on this blog but Dal summed it up about right.

            From my experience it is ok to give your thoughts as long as you don’t actually give the impression you know the solution. The benefit is the blog remains civilized but the problem is there is very little chance of any really serious, take off the gloves and hash it out, type of debates which could probably eventually reveal some very useful info.

            If you wish to discuss the “IT” you can go to TTOTC.com they are very open to conversation over there and will give you a polite but honest opinion. You might even be challenged by me over there so look out lol (but not here – I just let things roll here, not worth it).

            I don’t mean to be disrespectful to anyone here because I know there are many highly intellegent posters here, that hold back as well on this blog, so don’t loose hope you will soon figure out the ropes.

            The Wolf

          • BTW @ Iron Will- the reason I was interested in your “IT” theory is because I wrote a chapter for my book on “What is it”. I have another chapter of who your/you is – that will raise Seeker’s eyebrows or should I say I-brows.
            The Wolf

        • Like your comments Iron Will–Goofy is right…there is a need for thick skin. Mine happens to be thicker than buffalo hide and I just don’t know when to be quite.
          Someone once suggested MY compulsions in a more subtle fashion…What does Captain America, Sub Mariner, the Olmec people, and aspirin have in common?

          Just keeps making me dig a little deeper.

          And by the way…8 months is good–I won’t have to change my vacation plans.

          It’s a joke!

        • Iron-
          You are probably not familiar with the “history” of folks who came here and said they knew exactly where that chest is and they were going to go get it when the snow is gone. I guess we have seen close to a dozen such claims over the past 3 years. What is fascinating about those claims is that all of them were for a different spot..vastly different..

          There are thousands of people…maybe tens of thousands of people who have been out looking for the chest over the past 4 years. Forrest told a reporter just a few days ago that it was still out there. So none of them have found it yet…
          Many of them were just as excited as you. Many were certain they had cracked the poem. The poem led the exactly to their spot. Everything lined up perfectly…but no treasure chest.

          It isn’t necessarily the claim that annoys people here..As Goof said, its the arrogance that often follows. When we disregard their claims we find that sometimes we get told we are “stupid” for not seeing how correct they are…for not taking their advice and for not all running off to Glacier National Park or Brown’s Canyon or Taos Mountain or Silverton or wherever their perfect spot was.

          Optimism is wonderful..many who have headed out on their first search are full of confidence. I, myself was incredibly confident that I had worked out the spot on my first trip. I was euphoric on the drive out. I was planning on getting the house painted, maybe a new truck..I was counting on finding that treasure…and why not? Everything lined up..This had to be the spot..I was a genius!!

          What I learned in the next few months was that MANY places in the mountains north of Santa Fe line up precisely with the poem…but the only one that counts is the one that Forrest used..

          And that’s why most of us on the blog right now are trying to learn more about Forrest and use that knowledge to help us find…not just another place where the clues in the poem will take us…but more importantly, the place that matches the clues in the poem for Forrest.

          So…no one has heard of you before…and you are enthusiastic…filled with optimism…
          Some are concerned what will happen next..
          Will arrogance follow?
          After you make it to your location and don’t find the chest will you claim someone got there before you and it’s been taken?

          Those claims are tiring…

          We all wish you well..
          We all hope you have it cracked and after you find it we hope you will come back and show us how you did it..

          So you see…to have someone come on to the blog just to tell us they know where it is…well that’s a bit odd, don’t you think??
          If I was certain I knew where it was I would not be telling everyone that I knew..
          Not for fear that they would get to it before me…but rather…whats the point?
          Why would I tell people that except to gloat?? To make them feel bad that I figured out something they could not…
          That’s the first step in being arrogant…
          That’s what Goof is concerned about…

          So maybe there is something on this blog for you in addition to being a place to gloat..
          Maybe as you read through the posts and comments you will discover something important about Forrest or the poem or a remark from Forrest that will help you tune up your search…
          I hope we can help you walk right up to the treasure chest and pick it up…

          So stick around..read about other’s adventures looking for the chest..
          Read what Forrest has told us to help us find the chest..
          Read his answers to questions and look at his scrap books, vignettes and stories..
          Be open to new ideas…
          You are welcome here..

          • “Forrest told a reporter just a few days ago that it was still out there.” Is this recent news I missed on here? Or can you share it with us.

          • This was in an exchange between Forrest and a journalist in NM who is interested in creating a story about Forrest. This took place on October 28th:

            Journalist-
            “Can you dispel the recent claims the treasure’s been found?”

            Forrest-
            “Yes, the treasure is still hidden.”

            That’s it…That’s all I know…That’s all I have..
            But what I noted was that Forrest did not lead with the usual..
            “As far as I know…”

          • Dal….I’m not sure how to word this because I believe that you will “write your own story” of the events here, but make no mistake, I have not come here today in an “air” of arrogance, nor have I said that I have found the location of the treasure and know where it is.

            These are Goof’s and your fictional fixation that you created and then attempted to sell off as “my story”. That really disturbs me, especially coming from someone who set up this website to bring searchers together in an effort to share ideas and help each other.

            Your claims about me being arrogant, an gloating are incorrect, and you should outright apologize for that injustice, but I know you wont. So instead let me give you some wisdom and hope you take it to heart….

            When someone comes to YOUR site and states his opinions on the structure of this poem(point of topic), AND says on the side that he or she has a solution that fits the poem without “overreaching”, yet he/she is still processing other solutions to find if there are other ways to find the treasure, that does not mean that he/she knows where it is at. It simply means I might have some good “hunches”.

            I can understand why a person like Goofy would say what he said…there are MANY people like him in this world unfortunately. But you… You are this site’s creator. You should take greater care when it comes to reading and redefining one’s words to fit your own “narrative”.

          • white-
            As I mentioned. Thats all I know. I do not know the name of the journalist and I do not know what, if any publication, he/she/it might work for.

      • I wouldn’t rule out a newbie finding the chest. It just takes one person with the right mindset from the start, someone who perhaps use different parts of the brain to see patterns or meanings in words that others don’t.
        And I believe that someone most definitely is out there.

    • I kinda like it, Forrest wants people to get fired up about the chase and Will is prime example of it. Good luck to you Will.

    • Iron will

      Hope and belief and faith I do have. Since u have not yet been on an adventure, you will see just how hard it is to find the chest, when your boots are on the ground. Such large areas that surround you. Just wait u will see.
      I say that it’s my last due to several several searches that we were involved in this past summer , in which I’m greatful for . It takes some money to travel and for hotel stay . I know I could camp, but that’s scary to me and to cold. 🙂
      I have an idea where I have to go for the chest . What a trip it will be 🙁

      • Amy, ask Forrest to borrow his Zebras for you next ‘Boots on the ground.’ They may be able to scare the treasure right out of hiding!

      • Just adding to Ya-Sha-Wa’s wisdom:

        The term ‘word’ may refer to a spoken word or to a written word, or sometimes to the abstract concept behind either. Spoken words are made up of units of sound called phonemes, and written words of symbols called graphemes, such as the letters of the English alphabet.

        And a thought of my own regarding the words ‘wise’ and ‘measurement’:

        IMO, Forrest wants us to enjoy the thrill of the chase and adventure of a lifetime as we wisely measure mileage on maps and wisely find the blaze. I also think he hopes, that along the way, we might take a “wise measure” of ourselves. In moments of defeat and sore feet we take stock of who we are and hopefully learn a few things that he learned in his journeys… like, many parts of a pinetree are edible, but most parts of a porcupine aren’t.

  22. You know I was looking at the book again and I noticed in his child hood picture he had 3 names Pat, Edard, and Kacir listed with himself and Skippy. I thought that was strange, since I only remember Edard mentioned once outside of that picture so I combined the 3 names and anagrammed them. One of the solutions was “A Dark Cedar Pit” . Just a thought. Might be my mind just grasping or maybe not.

  23. Architecture is basically a series of lines. The lines link ideas together, to form a complete concept.

    • James, nice concise synopsis. I see the poem’s solution(s) as a series of lines and circles forming a complete concept.

    • An Analogy was made, Te basic is…An Architect creates with plans, a chef creates with ingredient. What is a used by both? Two different out-comes, but both use units of measurement.

      Hmmm spices and 60,000 links. Playing with After the fact comments is fun anyways.

      • Dang sorry….change ‘te’ to the and “A” it. I’d cin spel realy, I just can type worth sh…

      • Seeker, there is a brown mountain and muddy river place in Wyo. that fits both spices and links. If you strike out for there, you may wish to stop off for some olives and Jack Links sausage for the trip. They can be found on the same aisle, but beware the bears after eating slim jims. They will smell you from 2 miles downwind. River bathing may be necessary to remove the smell, and sing so they know you are coming.

        • Ha! great information and advise….Finally someone with knowledge I can actually use…LOL

          Thanks, I needed that.

        • Ha ha! I’ll take the slim Jims and catch the breeze with my spinnaker jib and scrib all the way down the Yankee Jim canyon.

          • Ed, does anyone come out the north end of Yankee Jim Canyon? Certainly not during spring run-off. But I could see Skippy and Forrest shooting the rapids like Brad Pitt in “A River Runs Through It.” I know they ran the rapids somewhere and lived to keep it a secret from their dad. No doubt a great story.

          • If you watch the Yankee Jim kayak video I posted below, please imagine you were listening to this song (rather than the song with the video) My bad, my mistake. sorry.

            http://youtu.be/bcQwIxRcaYs

            in honor of Dal’s adventures when Esmerelda hits 1m miles.

          • That is one heck of a kayaker. I can see Skippy there. They should call that the washing machine.

  24. For what it’s worth, I’ve been a licensed, practicing architect since 1979 and believe me, it hasn’t helped at all.

    • LMAO! Thank you…. I needed that this morning. and with that, I will go to bed (been off midnight shift for few hours.

    • LOL Melanie, that is good to know. 🙂
      My husband is a carpenter/contractor building for 40 years and the architect statement baffled us. Glad we arent alone.

  25. So I was looking for parks around me to go fishing and I looked up French Creek State Park in PA….On the wikipedia page it says they have 2 lakes, and one of the lakes is called hopewell and it says it is a “Warm water lake”….does anyone know what makes a lake warm water lake compared to cold water lake? cause they say the other lake is a cold water lake….?

      • oh ok I see…but the lakes are real close to each other and at about the same elevation…I tried calling the park but no one answered, I guess I will try tomorrow…

  26. Yowzer, sure a lot of chest thumping going on around here today. I keep expecting Tarzan to pipe up and complete the chorus.

  27. Ya’ll are all too much telling Will to slow down and trying to put him in his place “nicely”!!! We have all been new at one time and all the crazy solves and “I found it” moments are still fresh in our minds from just a couple of years ago to just last week!! Just be nice an invite him to post and let us know how things panned out or are going. We all have the sting of finding no Treasure Chest or not seeing that blaze or marks on a tree or great landmark that should have been there or we just knew would be over the next mountain road. I will continue to look at it as a well created home being raised and directed by words in a poem or followed as a puzzle on a great scavenger hunt, following the books as handwritten guides to that special place. We all continue to go over and over again the same clues and phrases Mr. Forrest has given us all to ponder. I love all of the banter between fellow searchers and I truly believe no one idea has been new under the sun. One or all of us has come up with similar solves at one time or another closely fitting other’s spots. Fun, Fun, continue the fun; and continue to post; one of us will, one day soon, find this chest and be in awe of how truly simple it was to just let go follow the clues and walk right to it. See you all in the funny papers so as always continue the Chase!!! Ms. Girl says hello Iron Will welcome aboard and get ready for the chase of your life. Good Luck to us All……..

    • Its ok Ms. Girl …. they flew through my post and automatically decided to make up their own “narrative” of what I said. It’s probably why they haven’t found the treasure yet. To me cracking this poem is fun, and as I said before ..I’ve done this sort of thing for so long, it’s second nature to me. I am just sad that I live in Virginia and not in the Rockies 😛

        • You know what’s not helpful… you purposefully trying to restart a drama that ended about 2 days ago. Try to be better than that.

          • [LATE COMMENT]

            Hang in there, Will. You had me at :
            “fictional fixation’ !!

            Just be yourself and do your own thing….

  28. Hello all, I’ve been working on the poem like cramming for a test with the restriction of not messing with the poem.

    We all have our coveted ideas and I wont share those, but here is what I have done recently.

    I wrote a song using the letters A – G in the order that they appear in the poem. For example, the first line of the poem reads:

    As I have gone alone in there

    The playable letters (notes) of this line, in order, are as follows:

    a-a-e-g-e-a-e-e-e

    I used the same octave for the entire song, that is:

    A4-A4-E4-G4-E4-A4-E4-E4-E4 and so on till the end of the poem.

    Well the results are interesting as it does make a tune per se, not just random notes, but I don’t recognize the song. I used Noteflight.com to do this (it’s free), but a child’s one octave toy piano could probably be used to hear it.

    I don’t see this as messing with the poem, I’m simply “playing” the poem and it could be a viable solution. Even knowing the song may not help, but I am trying many things.

    Been working on assigning colors to letters of the poem to see if patterns emerge. The colors allow for the pattern to be seen more easily and adding a mirror on edge increases results.

    Also working on 3D, I have the poem in six layers, not messing, simply reading it differently. Architecture can include levels or layers.

    I have read Thomas Edison’s biography and it is a great read. When he was asked about the filament in his light bulb and how he came about using that particular material he said, I tried 5000 things that didn’t work to find one which did. I feel like I’m applying that tenacity to the poem.

    Good luck all.

    • @Peter on music: I thought about playing with the sound the meadow lark makes, sort of 1,2,3,2,1….I’m really.enjoying reading all the old blogs getting caught up and seeing how a lot of you thought/felt one way 2-3 years back and now have evolved through trail/trial and error….pays for anyone new just starting out to read most of the older blogs….I can see this blog becoming just as valuable of a search resource as the book(s) 100 years from now! I did try holding the poem up to the mirror, that didn’t work, maybe I should have done it upside down…..got one thought on hoB —saying it out loud with a southern drawl = Homeward Bound… lol. Bring on more solves, loving it.

    • No one will ever read this late comment but are you familiar with the connection between Tungsten (W) and the U of Colorado?

  29. Wolf,

    “BTW @ Iron Will- the reason I was interested in your “IT” theory is because I wrote a chapter for my book on “What is it”. I have another chapter of who your/you is – that will raise Seeker’s eyebrows or should I say I-brows.”
    The Wolf

    There are entire books written on that subject. Would love to read that chapter… maybe before you release it to the public, you have my e-mail. Throw me a Bone or even a Scooby Snack.

    The “Cold one”

    Cold; is how I chose my screen name by the way…Cold, amongst others means “As a Seeker” If you write a chapter on that, I want a commission.

    • Will do, I am looking for a critically minded beta tester and I know you will definitely be able to provide the necessary feedback.
      The Wolf

      • I would love to hear your “it” theory also. Those words are screaming at me in the poem. Begin it. Bring it. There’s something there…. Please help end my madness. Lol. Email is cbfloyd9@att.net

    • I’ll take a stab at “it”

      Each instance of it seems different.

      Begin it = Quest or (i)n t……….

      Take it = Road

      From there it’s no place for the meek = quest or river

      So why is it = Wyoming (in this line it almost seems like he tells us what it is

      I’ve done it = completed quest or there might be a Hidden meaning there.

      I give you t(it)le to the gold

      6 it’s

      • I’ll take another stab at IT.
        ” It “, may not have the same meaning for each it … that is almost a given. But “Begin it ” and “take it in…” may not be what a searcher needs to do but an event that has happen that a searcher should be able to follow or understand.

        This IT thing for me is the same as the First two clues. More keep getting them but may not even know, Why?

        Is that because the first two clues is not what most hope them to be? Example of my idea for this is as such… riches new and old… may just be the first hint or clue and simple line of thinking says NM. Then there is WWWH. Simple line of thinking Snow covered Mountain top.

        Question, What is a ‘ few ‘ in comparison to an estimated 30,000 plus searcher? 1% is a low number but that states some 300 have the first tow clues correct.

        Now put most of those searcher in The Mountains North of SF and I’m guessing over a five year period someone may have been near the location of the chest at one time or another and not know it.

        Just random thoughts

  30. I agree with those of you that believe Forrest is referring to the Great Architect or Creator! Artists sometimes refer to it as the muse.

    As an artist myself, my best songs come to me fully orchestrated, during dreams or a when I”m in a theta brain wave state. They practically write themselves, and I have to hurry to write them down or record on my phone before they dissapear.

    Something as complicated as the poem and hiding the treasure, probably took not only Forrest’s genius, but 15 years of downloads from the Architect.

    • I think it’s great that you acknowledge that. Many artists will claim those ideas or creativity as their own, because of their ego. In the meantime, they were not much more than a medium, serving unknown entity.
      Now the question is, how we’ll do you know THAT source? Many of the art pieces out there are corrupting and are downright abomination to the mankind.
      Do you ever question the intent of your ” source” or ” muse” ? Or do you just pass it on, and take the credit for yourself?
      Einstein wished he had became a shoemaker after he realized, how his knowledge will affect the mankind. If they all acknowledged their source, maybe we would perceive their art and creations differently.

      • I don’t need to question the source, because my heart knows whether something comes from love/light or the opposite fear/dark. I’ve learned that if the person who is the medium comes from a place of love, then the source will be love. I always come from a place of love and light.

  31. I come from the camp there is something built into the architecture of the poem- (at least these days). If all you really had was the poem… there are layers that make parallel sense. The answers can’t be crapshoots of 9 things that line up. There are too many possibilities, in my opinion. I have 3 architectural theories-

    1. simple and convincing, (9 words)
    2. difficult and convincing (9 literal lines drawn)
    3. confusing and convincing. (?)

    The warm waters halts being

    1. Roosevelt Arch (but said in a different way)
    2. Ojo (don’t know which one- NM or WY)
    3. the code to re-writing the title of the book.

    As I’m sure these 3 of dozens of non architecture theories are just as wrong as all my others, I am convinced there are specifics within the Fenn masterpiece, and it feels great to put my thoughts somewhere, so thank you, Dal, for the space.

    • Leigh you could certainly be correct. I do find all the different ways of looking at the poem very imaginative and interesting.

      In one interview when Fenn was asked if he would have liked a treasure hunt like this when he was a kid answered he would have loved it, and would have looked under every bush in North America.

      So Fenn has encoded the poem somehow in a very imaginative way or he expects us to search the Rockies to find the one place that matches the clues perfectly. Either way it’s a very difficult task.

      Or perhaps it’s a combination of the two methods. When a guy like Fenn says it’s not impossible to find…….translates to it’s extremely difficult to find.

      This is a marathon not a sprint……most, if not all, will fall by the wayside before the chest is found in my opinion.

      • Michellerice – I think you are right on! phrases/meanings can be flipped for fun, without messing with the poem. I think Forrest may have even used simple rhymes and literary puns as confirmation you are on the right trail to his grail. It’s a complicated & elegant solve iMO but his personality shines thru in fun details. The poem’s waters run deep but riffles sparkle on the surface, so to speak.

    • Does not have to be any specific architecture?

      Begin it where warm waters halt (spot)
      1. Ojo (WY) His bathing spot, very special to him.
      2. Firehole Canyon (—line)
      3. Put in (spot)
      4. From there it’s no place for the meek (—line)
      5. The end is drawing ever nigh (spot —- line) (Acronym in this line)
      6. There’ll be no paddle up your creek (spot — line)
      7. Just heavy loads (spot–line) (homophone here: lodes)
      8. Water high (spot–line of sight)
      9. Blaze (Very special spot) (You can now take a icy cold bath & shower)

      I am confident it’s a map.
      You start out taking a bath in warm water & at the end of the journey you will have to take a bath/shower in very cold water.
      Your effort will be worth the cold.
      Hope this helps……
      Just my opinion.

  32. Cold one (Seeker),
    I do have a very interesting interpretation/chapter of/on “cold” and how it links to the key. I will try and keep your version isolated, but I have a strange feeling that one on my interpretations crosses paths with yours and it might be something you have overlooked based on a recent statement of yours.
    The Wolf

    • Wolf,

      Oh crap, my secret is out…who’s whispering in the wind?

      The real secret to my theory is, I use most if not all meanings and interpretation. Fun fact…there are over 50 uses/meanings for the word Cold. I harken the day when I willy nilly threw out meanings and interpretations of the words in the poem…E-mails sprouted wings and complaints of, giving up “others” solves, soared across the land…Opps – my bad.

      But, the chest is still out there…So a lot of help or hindrance I was.

      Anyways, If you feel comfortable enough [and I hope you still do] to send that chapter as well…I’ll give ya an honest opinion and I’m always interested in others interpretations… Some searchers, like yourself, have done just that for me over the past two years… If I get anything out of this, I hope it’s the understanding That my words is my handshake and my handshake is my bond. That is still important to some…

      Ya never know… I may give you something you could use…I’m Not just another pretty face, ya know……………..

      Is there a chapter on “element”? just curious.

      • On second thought, Just send me your rough draft of the entire book, I edit it for you…….Free of Charge! lol

  33. Seeker,
    Ok, it is a deal. I should be able to get the “cold” theory out this week; the application or search story will take a couple of weeks to finish so that I can tie it in with the rest of the theme/theories.

    Yes there is a topic on “element”. I even have some fun with my imagination and have the chase tied into the Kennedy Assassination. That anniversary is coming up too you know!

    I have included a Wild West theory and a few other unique concepts that will guarantee to provoke a whole new way of looking at the clues. And I have finally been able to tie in “CE5” to the mystery object in the chest – which if people buy into; they (or “she”) will be more than pleasantly surprised and handsomely rewarded.
    The Wolf

    • I can help you out already… The mystery object she will be pleasantly surprised when she sees it is, My wife and the Hope Diamond. Because we all know the hoB Is Molly Brown house….Geeezz I thought you knew that !

      Finding the trove would be great. It would be a nice nest egg for the wife to retire on, and maybe I’d get a new truck… She’s has some miles on her…a few dings and dents…purrs like a kitten IF your gentle with her and has never let me down…

      But the truck I have is a piece of crap…… I would really like to get a new one.

      • lol – that is just what he wanted us to believe. There is a slight twist to that story, that can only be obvious by understanding the man who wrote the poem. Thus the book is appropriately titled, “Finding Fenn”.
        The Wolf

  34. I basically took all the words he used to tell us what to do or what he did, put them in alphabetical order and reinserted back into poem to get this rough draft–
    Begin it where warm waters halt not far, but too far to walk from there.
    Go in peace, it’s no place for the meek.
    hear me—The end is ever drawing nigh; there’ll be no paddle up your creek, just heavy loads.
    hint of riches—as with my treasures bold
    I already know— where
    I can keep my secret-new
    I have gone alone in there- old so
    I must go— why is it that
    I’m weak— to seek
    I’ve done it— the answer
    leave my trove—now
    listen good——water high, if you’ve been wise.
    look quickly down— found the blaze
    put in below the home of Brown——your quest to cease, but just.
    take it in the canyon down—So all your effort will be worth the cold,
    take the chest—if you are brave,
    tarry scant with marvel gaze—In the wood I give you title to the gold.

    as a side note, 9 tell you what to do
    begin it
    take it
    put in
    look quickly
    tarry scant
    take the chest
    go in
    hear me
    listen good

    and 9 tell what he did
    I have gone
    i can keep
    hint of riches
    i must go
    leave my trove
    i already know
    i’ve done it
    i’m weak
    i give

    as for the punctuation, I’m playing with the ideal of putting each section divided by commas, periods, etc… in alphabetical order. Probably not but he did say to follow clues precisely so I’m thinking of order. I got New Mexico by doing that with the first stanza.

      • I’m honored Wolf! Paint it with an honest flair and you’ll have a great story. I just finished reading “Empire of The Summer Moon” story of Quana Parker and the last free band of Comanches. What a ride, what a read!

  35. first stanza-
    I have gone alone in there with my treasures. I can keep my secret and hint of riches.
    leaves-
    As bold where new and old.
    The words “New Mexico” are equally printed in bold on any map.
    Seems too simple? Maybe, but try it with rest of stanzas.

  36. Hi All, IMO the architect comment by Forrest refers to a 2 dimensional blueprint/poem becoming 3 dimensional; similar to ‘architecture of spatial awareness’. A 2D blueprint acted upon/built results in something 3D. Cheers.

    • Likewise, Pip, at the 11th hour of the 11th day of the 11th month the Treety of Versailles became the blueprint to honor Veterans on that day.. That was World War I in 1918…called The Great War…because “no one could imagine any war being greater!”

      Look where we are today…not even 100 years later…and about 70 years after an even bigger world war. It’s very sad to consider what might happen…again.

      http://www.history.army.mil/html/reference/holidays/vetsday/vetshist.html

      In spite of the gloom that is war. I still wish a happy Veteran’s Day to all who served…for good.

      Thank you, Forrest.

  37. If one looks to compare the architecture of the poem to the physical chest. Then look at the Romanesque Architecture … lots of pillars used in construction.

  38. Could the comment… An Architect wrote the poem … Be nothing more than bride of constructing The poem, The hours of labor, Planning, Reconstructing, Re-arranging, 15 years with a single goal in mind, to get the solid result that could stand for a millennium?

    Oh Hell no Seeker, there’s gotta be a clue in there somewhere…

    Now those Zebra boots, There’s a clue. SHE looks pleasantly surprised in them.

  39. The most sacred architecture, the only one that contains the wisdom of all things is the word of The Creator. The Poem points in the direction of the wholly scriptures, which read from right to left. They begin with “B” and in them, each one of the hebrew characters, conveys meaning in various ways; in gematria -numerical value-, in an iconic -visual- representation, and in sound -vibration-. The poems architecture is a mere gimmick exploited by FF to hint to its magnificence.
    A very interesting challenge indeed. I enjoyed it greatly.

  40. Victor, really interesting! I’m not a Hebrew scholar so gematria went quickly over my head. I have no idea how to find or apply its numerical values to the poem. Forrest has never stated this so all opinion, but he may be dyslexic which would account for stated anxiety in his early years. My opinion is he’s extremely bright, has a photographic memory, may read right to left or perhaps upside down and was totally bored with school. I just haven’t had time to re-type the poem without word breaks and solve it backwards yet. My brain doesn’t work that way so it may be a complete exercise in futility. I simply want to read the genius of Forrest’s own solve in his words explaining deeply layered meanings. There’s rhythm, music, math, art, history, cartography, numerology, etc. the workings of an imaginative genius. Today I noticed Giverny inside the poem- which is a beautiful French jardin Monet painted often. I don’t believe it’s there by accident and would enjoy hearing why its special to Forrest.

    • 42, Thank You kindly. From my own approach and various attempts, I can tell you, I think you may very well be right. There are endless ways to look at and to interpret this poem, specially since this is how it was designed and put together. We the hunters may never come out with exactly what FF had in mind, but it is always refreshing to hear others’ solutions. Cheers and the best in 2015.

    • 42, just as sometimes a question is best answered with another, maybe the solve to this poem is another poem. One of unknown author:
      “In Jesus’ time, the dogwood grew
      To a stately size and a lovely hue.
      ‘Twas strong and firm, its branches interwoven.
      For the cross of Christ its timbers were chosen.
      Seeing the distress at this use of their wood
      Christ made a promise which still holds good:
      “Never again shall the dogwood grow
      Large enough to be used so.
      Slender and twisted, it shall be
      With blossoms like the cross for all to see.
      As blood stains the petals marked in brown,
      The blossom’s center wears a thorny crown.
      All who see it will remember Me
      Crucified on a cross from the dogwood tree.
      Cherished and protected, this tree shall be
      A reminder to all of My agony.”
      ?

    • 42, this should please you as much as Fenn’s own solve, I hope: Ian Mallet discovered a Superstring code within Genesis 1:1
      The code provides 45 (Forty-Five…FF) gematria numbers for Yashua Hamashiach. All of them, to be found nigh (left) of the Matrix. The Creator’s own signature given to us regarding the authorship of his own word. This is the physical proof Fenn has been asking for.
      It is confirmed with the Creator’s own words… “Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me, Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure.” (Isa 46:9-10)
      Very much the same occurs with the titlos or aitia (title or accusation) placed by Nero (John19:19) over Yashua’s head on the cross (wood) with 19 Hebrew characters and yet another divine encoding message given to us. Do you see a pattern or a Blaze? I see a consuming Almighty Creator who gave his word from outside our time and space reality and was made flesh by his own hand to fulfil his promise. My wish for 2015 is that all may have eyes and see, all may have ears and hear.
      The four corner characters I D E A, I think are there to let us see and ponder the depth of our Saviour’s sacrifice, as it was endured in the flesh within the boundaries of our time-space reality representing an eternal suffering which is the price paid for humanity’s sin! Amen to Yahweh’s plan.

      • Victor, the poem and dogwood blossom are lovely. Creation declares God, His glory, and His precious sacrifice for humanity. Even stories on the current pet scrapbook are examples of unconditional love built into creation for the blessing of mankind. I’m anxious to print and study your superstring code discovered in Genesis – for my own enjoyment and to see if applicable to my solve. I like left of the matrix and the corner characters. Headed skiing, hope to look at your info on the plane. Thx.

        http://www.visualforces.com/christian/photography/nature/the-dogwood/

        • 42, Keep in mind that the Superstring Code proves that Y (Yahweh) is at the center of Creation. Yahshua is his own power given in the 3413 sum of six of his names; 3 Hebrew (YSVA,YHVSVA, YSV) and 3 Greek (IESOUS, IESOUN, IESOU). (Isa53:5)
          No wonder if you ask “WHO pulled the string?” as in BigBang, He did!
          Part of the gematria works like doors, I’ll give you one example: Zec12:10 and Luke 10:21
          When you read it in the context of why the highest insult he could have received on the Cross turned out to be true (He being the King of the Jews), was issued precisely for “the one whom they have pierced” and Luke’s “for so it seemed good in his sight” cross references his own will.
          What could be the most bitter insult, was turned into xylose -so to speak- wood sugar!

        • OK. I hope this squares it finally. The system I last described to code the poem, would operate under the DBR root (hebrew)-see later post this section of blog-. FF’s treatment and possibly his cure also proceeds from a distinct form of DBR (distributed Bragg reflector). This would tie the matrix aspect of it and bring us to the same plane. Wouldn’t it?
          The Poem reads… “As I have gone alone in there”… Observe how within the matrix, the characters of the 20th, 21st and 22nd columns form a symmetric frame between the 1-2-3 and 23-24 rows. This feature hints to ‘water’ whose’s ‘er’ enters the ‘alpha’ symmetry. In my opinion, as he went into the ER his mind started mixing poems and medical issues (lasers, etc) and he later decided to incorporate both into a riddle.
          Too far off? Or just enough to walk away with it?
          Some Food for thought? Eff or t?

          • Thx again Victor. I hear it’s quiet in your neck of the woods. Enjoy the peace. A bit of alt sickness here, but countering with all the tricks to enjoy fresh air tomorrow.

        • Victor, thank you for sharing such interesting, well researched info. (not related to bass fishing;) It will be a week before I can dedicate time to understanding the matrix you’ve referenced I like your B interpretation to bee honest;)
          and am beginning to wonder if f’s mind wanders in and out of +/- principles.
          Others discount my spiritual interpretation of the poem but are missing the word cross is in TTOTC and missing the points of the cross in the solve imo.

          The “Titulus Crucis” sign I.N.R.I, brought to Rome by Constantine’s mother Helena is one of the most amazing sights I’ve had the privilege of seeing. I wept. The significance to mankind and my own salvation were overwhelming. While not all relics are proven authentic, this and the shroud of Turin in most experts opinions were with Christ during crucifixion.

          http://youtu.be/EW21tKEz1-o

          • 42, Thank You kindly for sharing. Since yesterday’s post, I have uploaded many more ideas. I just hope they serve others to view the poem from a different angle.
            Let’s say… a 45 degree angle? That, I think, would at least somehow match the author’s hint (FF).
            But seriously, I have clarified earlier today that my focus was very heavily centered on the Superstring Code gematria of Genesis 1:1.
            I have now stated that Fenn’s Poem riddle is exactly about a dual solve seeking to un-earthen DBR for both. We’ll discuss when you get back. Have a good trip

          • 42. Thanks. No I totally get you. I had an inspired night and came up with this sharp at 6. Tons to work though, well almost. I am moving on to a whole different period today and hopefully I can post something of interest tonight. Be well.

          • 42 (Ft), I think I have the super caput mother load. I don’t wish to ruin anyone’s dreams or plans. Make it sweet and short or give them the vacation package (all-inclusive) with the guided tour? What’s your thought? I’d make it all about and.

    • @Lilly Carter, thanks for the video and reminder. One alone is able to fill your life with peace and your heart with joy. No gold, no career, no man or woman can fulfill another human being, although we are meant to love unconditionally those placed in our lives.

  41. I figured out a “new” angle for looking at the poem tonight.

    I’ve been intermittently thinking about the following statements from Forrest:

    (paraphrased) “You have to know where to begin… You have to know where warm waters halt”.

    (I found this one exactly) “There are many places in the Rocky Mountains where warm waters halt, and nearly all of them are north of Santa Fe”.

    So… With the latter statement in mind, the former statement could be suggesting two different concepts–where to begin geographically, and where warm waters halt specifically in that vicinity. Like, there’s something within the poem that narrows the starting point down greatly, rather than just looking at the totality of the Rockies north of Santa Fe. You parse that out first, and then get to work on the clues within the much smaller area and so forth.

    I know this line of reasoning has been discussed at length on here before, but I’ve never figured out a way to apply it until now. I haven’t dug deep into the 2nd phase yet, as I’ll need to do some serious map work within the smaller area, but I found a potential “X marks the spot” in the poem that I’d totally missed before that is VERY interesting on a couple different levels.

    The area in question is in Colorado. I’m pretty new at this (~6 months or something) and haven’t read much in the scheme of things, but it’s not an area that there’s much discussion about these days (I’ve seen passing mention of it once or twice but nothing extensive).

    I’m going to stew on it a bit before I dig deeper, but I’m kind of fired up that at this early stage I’ve turned a corner for the first time on an interpretation that’s just barely beyond bare-bones simple and may actually have legs.

    To be clear, being that it’s NYE, this post is sort of drunk but the new angle was prior to all of that… happy new years and good luck in ’15.

    dub

  42. Without getting esoteric about the structure of the poem:
    There are six stanzas with four lines each. 64
    Highway 64 in Colorado runs from meeker to Dinosaur.
    Highway 64 in New Mexico runs across the northern part of the state.

  43. Are Fenn’s followers going to enjoy this one…!
    I’ve been spinning my head around so many concepts, I don’t know where to begin. Please try to grasp what Forrest did; He took several cypher concepts of first order such as the Bible’s structure and gave it a twist. As is a single one of them wasn’t enough! How did he accomplish this? Based on elaborate Bee waggle dance observations, a 2D lobed, honey comb-like Torus Vortex Knot can be developed. Not only that. If you have the time and patience, you can even draw 3D models out of these. Furthermore, by using letter pairs, a framing can be used. Since this is all based on exotic methodologies and encompasses various levels of applications even just within the alphabetical characters used (divided into; archetypal, inner spiritual and outer physical with individual values in single, 10 fold and 100 fold values), exactly how he originated it, remains a mystery. I for one, am eager to hear his full explanation in detail and propose that he did it in video for added fun. For now, I would like to point you all (like bees do when conveying information) to Stan Tenen and a document titled ‘The shape of information; how to talk to an extra-terrestrial’ google that and get prepared to get the full download from Fenn himself. Wow what a journey it has been.

    • “Are Fenn’s followers going to enjoy this one…!”.

      Not going to lie here. I have no idea what you said here. My head is swirling trying to figure it out. Sounds more complicated than the poem itself.

    • http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mason_bee

      Victor , I like your theory , Mason bee is a common name for species of bees in the genus Osmia, of the family Megachilidae. They are named from their habit of making compartments of mud in their nests, which are made in hollow reeds or holes in wood made by wood-boring insects…….
      I understand why you would think this, interesting. But, It would be too easy if were Templar code wouldn’t it , that code is posted all over the internet. … I have had the same understanding that F has tied many hook ” I call cyphers” . I believe you may be correct, but to add… I think my theory is also , and it dose not resemble yours. All though it is a cypher, meaning that every cyphier is not where the treasure is. And it is a more practical reason and placement , but I think your concept of what the treasure is put in …. could be…. But the 3 knots he tied a day is not the knot understanding you have. Define the word IN , you will find that in math it is a depiction of movement in which it uses a x-y axis point that is used in 3d modeling and suggests the use of liner , in which liner has the capability to determain the location , because it is a very direct way to connect the points. Plus y is always present and that is why he tied them that way, used in theories of 3dimential mathematics as well as map making.
      This is another Mason specialty. Considering that the golden ratio of the golden triangle have notation in all Mason buildings.
      I see Masons in a lot of things. Especially in Forrests poem, along with Quite a few others he included of his own thinking. Like his involvement with the Crow Indian , known for connection to Santana worship , as well as the Mason ,and Templar connection as well as Indian folk lor.
      But NO Victor would I pay you for Information I’ve known for years.
      Thanks for your write up saved me some time.

      • Mr D. You went on a totally off topic on me. I said that the Bee concept to know as far as its relationship to hoB, is merely a tip of an iceberg. The informational iceberg required to put together the dual solve, involves MANY, many topics. We are not talking worship or anything of the like. The only reference made to Masons, was made by Fenn, regarding the bronze chest. I believe he was pointing to Bees, given that there is within the genus, a line of workers. All that confirms from outside the poem text, is that there is a connection. Furthermore, this would in any case, only bring you to the ‘door’ of the poem. The entrance to the comb. Once you understand the thinking from this point forward, possibilities just begin to open up. You seem to already, want to close the door and assume ALL has been given? Sorry to say Nops. And I leave you with yet another intriguing fact about honey-sugar; the poem reads… ‘if you are brave and in the wood”…. there is one such thing as wood sugar! But we are not starting from sugar, it’s Bee. B. To those with ears.

  44. ” Since this is all based on exotic methodologies and encompasses various levels of applications even just within the alphabetical characters used (divided into; archetypal, inner spiritual and outer physical with individual values in single, 10 fold and 100 fold values), exactly how he originated it. ”

    And ya’ll thought my theory was out of this world! How do I look now??? LOL

    • Seeker on, Dave and Ramona,
      I am glad you reacted. My conjectures sound waaaaay out there, right? They’re not. Over the last two days, I have posted my findings as I moved along. I believe to have nailed it finally.
      Please try to read them, and… let’s wait to hear from Fenn.
      If I am right though, it’d be nice if everyone pitched in at say $10 bucks each. Not too steep nor too much to cry about. Because the Chest will contain Royal Jelly and not over a Million. The money wouldn’t hurt. Don’t you agree?
      I know and concur with you all. What I wrote up there sounds wacko. It isn’t. Every bit is real and your heads will spin for days trying to figure it out, even when he finally comes out to explain it.
      In a nutshell, it’s a dual solve for the poem and his cancer treatment, based on an identical three-character acronym: DBR.
      Each has its long tail and hunters in this Chase will Buzz like a swarm of wild bees! I swear. Bee-have like stingless. OK!?
      Enjoyed the ride. Bless you all.

      • Well Victor,
        You may need to dummy it down, at least for me. But now your asking or 10 bucks ahead? Why is that?

        If your serious about how this all works to find the location of the chest, you must have solve some of the poem. So seeing your asking for dollers, walk us throw the solve, as you say you “finally nailed it.” No need to tell where the chest is… But At least for myself, I’d need something a bit more concrete. Up to you.

        If not, no problems. I’ll just buy a bigMac, fries and a soda and still have $3.15 left.

        • I’m with you seeker…Asking for $10 bucks?…For what?…Nothing of substance that I can see in his posts…Sounds like he doesn’t believe there is treasure in the chest anyway so why is he even here?…

          Fool me once…

          • At ease Samsmith. Nobody is asking for money. It’s the opposite. I have posted my unreserved findings. I believe the Treasure will not be the Chest used in the promotional efforts of the Chase. And I also believe that the purpose is one of much deeper meaning. A message worth listening to.

        • Seeker. ….. sigh. I am kidding about $. But you are not reading carefully. There will be no chest full of gold, stones, etc at the end of the day. That is my own interpretation. The Treasure will probably be a large supply of Royal Jelly. Again, I am serious. Where is it? At Fenn’s. When and if he confirms, I’d have to go get it, as he clearly stated from the beginning.
          And don’t go for the FF (fast food), but some avocados and tortillas from your organic market and enjoy some vegetarian tacos with cilantro! One of Fenn’s own reasons to conduct this Chase (I think), is the very issue of Health and a natural means to combat cancer.
          Cheers

        • agreed seeker, I don’t see it. Sorry vic, I don’t think f would be going down that path. Theme is all wrong, imo, and, I don’t see any part of
          ” solving the poem.”
          Advice, I would change my “ride” and get back on it. Long road ahead…

      • Hi Victor ,

        I would like to ask you .
        How dose the Hive translate to a actual Location . I understand you coding. I believe the one of earliest at least that I’ve seen of this was used by Julius cease. In a cypher code to send messages.. It looks very similar, but which word did you use to unlock this theory”?

  45. I was leaving a comment but something happened. The last thing I said was that it was supposed to be simple wasn’t it? Some ideas are far from simple. To each his own. Good luck! This winter may drive some crazy!

    • DR,BH: Do you really and seriously expect the solve to be an ‘easy’ one? I think that most people are going to have a very hard time understanding that the TOTC is not what it seemed to be. At least, not literally. And it’ll be quite interesting to find out what the reaction is going to be if, say… the actual outcome is a more valuable one, but on a different value scale. I suspect the Maggi will have something for the flock of hunters. We’re only one day away! Let’s keep our eyes open. Cheers.

  46. More on the Bee-Waggle-Honeycomb ‘idea’; and I do sincerely apologize to those wanting simple, dummied-down or main-stream opinions. For this is not going to appeal to you. After all, the Chase doesn’t take you where you want to go. It leads you where…? Here’s one possible place.
    I posted earlier a comment about my conviction that the hints of Bee being B and the poem its honey comb, where I also expressed my belief that the end of the rainbow (expressed differently $$$), was royal jelly. After all, the poem reads Chest and the Wiki definition for that, is a buried vessel for food! So, I keep thinking I am on the right track. And, think about it. The light source (responsible for the rainbow), is the ONLY instrument bees use to help direct their flights as they relate the ‘gps’ of their comb in degrees, as related to the sun and their own ‘find’ or food source. Having said that, and knowing that I have to apply it to the poem’s text, I dug for info and found gold. Patent 4,874,936 or in other ‘words’, FE SFNTS… for their character initials. Does it look like something that could have been registered by Fenn? It does to me. Well, the patent is quite long and you can google it if you wish(http://www.google.ca/patents/US4874936). In a nutshell, it has all the elements for our informational challenge at hand; to solve the riddle-puzzle-enigma-stumper-problem or whatever you want to call it.
    I printed the poem on a triangle lattice (what you would use for an isometric drawing, where you have three axis). It’s the same as doing it on a conventional grid made up of squares (rows and columns), but the triangular lattice allows you to then group blocks of characters into perfect hexagons. Try it! I got 12×8 plus a few extra hexagons to the right of the poem where the text does not fill every space there is. In total 112 hexagons were used, some(26) of which have anywhere from 1 to 5 characters and most(86), are full. And this is normal, if you looked at a real comb, they get filled progressively!
    Notice that the patent’s date stamp reads Oct17 1989 (around the time Fenn cites for his illness). Read the patent, consider all you know and have heard from him. The elements will jump at you. Light, scanners, readers, sensors, codes, etc.
    When you do this… you will see 112 wheels containing 6 bits of information each.
    A whole new digital array of information. Am I nuts? Possibly. Cheers

    • Hi Victor! I need to read more but it appears to be the UPS label tracking for packages? Ofcourse applying that technology to the poem could be very interesting. I can’t wait to see what you came up with!

      • Spallies. Did you open the images attached to the patent? The text is quite long and boring. But the images speak for themselves! Each one is worth more than a 1000 words. That just went to prove that there is nothing new under the skies. Dal has replied below. Maybe hunters will be able to see the poem-honeycomb later today! Check that out.

  47. Dal, I’d like to post a picture of my poem as printed on a triangular (isometric) lattice. So that others can see what it looks like. I don’t see any resources to upload it. Can we arrange for that to happen? Or would I have to post it elsewhere and provide links? Please let me know. Thanks.

    • Vic-
      We cannot post pics per se in the comments section. It would have to be a link. But if you want to write-up your solution and add pictures I will take it as a text file and separate photos emailed to me. I will post it as a page on the blog and folks can read it and comment on it.

      • Dal, hadn’t seen your reply. Thanks. I’ll do that. Today seemed an ideal day for it. Cheers.

  48. While awaiting Dal’s reply on the first aspect of the dual solve of the poem, on this last posting for today, I want to provide hunters with a resource for the other half of the solve. The one related to a Superstring Code. I made an extensive posting explaining a theory. Many people reacted in shock for its complexity. So, I have decided to give you the lead, you go check it out. If go go to http://www.meru.org, on their homepage you’ll find many links. I highly recommend you to explore the hebrew characters one in depth. Fenn has been asking for that. Depth. I will also suggest to go to this one more specifically; http://www.meru.org/Lettermaps/atbsh-base3snake.html
    I explained to someone, how Fenn used many schemes for cyphering a message, not just one. This page will show you how gematria has a built-in nature that encompasses 10 and 100 fold values for characters, plus structural guidelines.
    I compared it to the Enigma Machine and when you see this, you will understand why. If you take the time to explore most of the links under hebrew language, you’ll also find the vortex I spoke of. Mathematical and geometric models can and are often expressed from language. The ‘idea’ I posted above for the other half of the solve (remember that my theory includes one solve for the treasure as in reward, the other one, for Fenn’s illness) attempts to bring Fenn’s 2D poem to a 3D plane quite simply (without the use of complex math or trig). Is there anything in any of these two alternatives that seems wacko? Not if you read and digest.
    I am not one to think within a single track, I refuse to be boxed and enjoy jumping from the right-bright- to the left-night- track every once in a while. Enjoy!

    • …or maybe Fenn just went fishing one day & it’s up to us to try and retrace where

  49. Why an open solution Victor? Why don’t you search yourself? I have been going over things that he has said over the years and maybe that is what you might want to do. I hope you do not ruin it.

  50. My chances of having a trip to search for the gold box possibly. That was a Goofy question. Bet you get that a lot.

  51. Chasemeon, Callmenineclues and Goodoldguy, Thanks for commenting. Well. I don’t like discussions. I gave what I felt like sharing. I posted an intense block earlier. People reacted oddly. I expected it, simply because my angle is different. This time around, I wanted to hand out a small tool package. To let searchers try them for themselves. Nothing wrong with that. I hope not to ruin anything for anyone. I think this is the purpose of the blog. To come in, hear others’ ideas, participate respectfully, share and continue your own chase, at your own pace, in peace. Love you all guys and hope you all find the treasure soon. Cheers

  52. Dal,
    Since I joined the Chase late and not from the outset, and I also realize that this resource link is for comments regarding the structure of the poem, what is the best way to submit a solve?
    Wouldn’t it be a good idea to add a link titled ‘Submit your solve’? That way, only those wanting to hear others’ final solution would access the link and read. This way, nobody can argue… ‘spoil’. Read at your own risk.
    This is just an idea, based on reactions observed earlier.

    • I don’t see the problem. If someone doesn’t want to read any solutions they can just stop reading and go on to the next comment…
      We can choose to read or not read what we wish..

      I have no problem with people putting their solutions on the blog…as long as they don’t say things like..”I solved it.” or “I found it.” when they have not. Just because a person has a solution they have worked out does not mean it is THE solution. Just because a person thinks they know where it is does not mean they are correct and I do not want new folks on the chase reading here that someone “has solved it” and believe it.

      So as long as a writer does not claim to have found it or solved it when they have not…I am fine with posting your solution anywhere…
      And as I mentioned…if you want to send me your text and some photos I will put it up for all to read as a page…

      • Thank you dal. Hopefully everyone reads that. Vic, I might not agree with you, but that;s my opinion, doesn’t mean it’s not right, (or wrong). It’s these people that say they have the treasure, or try to convince new people that they no longer need to look. If anybody finds the treasure it’s simple. Just post the first paragraph of his autobiography that was in the chest. Forrest can confirm, he’ll probibly be alive for another 20 years to torment us anyway.
        If you want to go the other route and say you have it but don’t (like that Pam person) well, be prepared to be ousted by the powers that be.

      • Got it Dal, that makes total sense. I already sent you the poem embedded in the isometric lattice. And provided some text to go separately but adjacent so that people relate the two. That post was intended for this section. Cheers.

        • Sorry, I didnt see this earlier. I just wanted to say anyone who wishes to have their own free blog can get one through wordpress.com. which links with their registration to use this blog and mikes blog. That way you can share whatever you want to without using up Dals bandwidth.

          Your registration through gravatar links to wordpress.
          You can use gravatar or wordpress for photos also.

  53. “Quiet Night Thought” – Li Bai, Tang Dynasty

    静夜思 A Quiet Night Thought

    床前明月光 In front of my bed, there is bright moonlight.
    疑是地上霜 It appears to be frost on the ground.
    举头望明月 I lift my head and gaze at the August Moon,
    低头思故乡 I lower my head and think of my hometown.

    Peace

      • Spallies – yes, my lil’ bro (age 31) is having heart valve replacement surgery Jan 15th so of course I am thinking of him.

        • 23… I am so sorry to hear that… I hope all goes well for him… I am sure your good thoughts will help him through… take care

          • Life is scared to disappoint him, not the other way around so he’ll be fine. Thank you for the kindness, you’re a good egg Spallies.

        • 23, I hope all goes well for your brother. All heart surgery is scary, but I have a few friends (and patients) that have had a valve replacement, and they’re doing great.
          Sending prayers for him and his family, and for a quiet sense of peace for you, too.

          • Mindy – he’s opted for the mechanical vs the pig valve so will be on coumadin for his lifespan. Thank you for the support!

            Peace

          • I remember about 30 years ago I worked at a small family owned manufacturer in the drafting department. We were still using drafting tables then, and when we were all drawing you could hear a pin drop. Pete had the table next to me and he got his heart valve replaced with one of the mechanical ones. It used to drive me crazy. I could here it clicking with each heart beat. Some times the clicking would stop, and it would freak me out because I thought Pete had just died. I would run around the bookcase between us real quick to check on him, and he would still be there, bent over his table drawing away. He always got a kick out of seeing me worry like that. We had an attractive secretary that worked for the company as well and I could always tell when she walked in the drafting room as Pete’s clicking would speed up when he noticed her.

        • You said” so will be on coumadin for his lifespan” Coumadin is good after procedure, but please double check that “for lifetime”. My moms 2nd doctor was very upset that my mom had been on it for two years after her heart surgery. He said long term was causing more problems with her heart. I am praying for your brother.

          • I don’t think there’s a problem with him being on Coumadin. It’s a big time blood thinner, though, so because he’s young and still likely to suffer bangs and cuts, tell him to make sure he applies pressure to his boo boos for ten minutes straight with no peeking! And make sure he gets his levels checked every few months. We are noticing a trend among some doctors keeping Coumadin levels too high, which means even a needle stick can cause heavy bleeding. Tell him he’s got to remember to tell every dr and surgeon he sees that he takes it, and before any surgery, he should stop taking it 7 days prior.
            You wouldn’t believe the trouble people can get into by forgetting to tell their doctors and surgeons what may seem like inconsequential details.
            He should do great with the new valve. 🙂

  54. I think it would be very insightful to see some of FF’s earlier poem drafts, with all the “switching” that was going on in an important area of my solve prior to TTOTC being published

  55. 23

    Yes hope all goes well with your brother. Let’s keep him in our prayers 🙂

  56. I had my aortic valve replaced in 1995, with a St. Jude mechanical valve. I have taken 5mg of coumadin every day for twenty years with no problems whatsoever. Thank you Jesus.
    Best wishes and prayers for your brother.

    • Thank you Emmett, good to know your 20+ years along and all is well with the heart valve.

      • My husband just had open heart surgery in October to fix an aneurysm and replace his valve. He opted for the organic valve so he’ll need to have surgery again in 18 years or so, but he won’t need the blood thinners. We’re hoping by then they will perfect replacing the valve through the groin. So that is why he chose that one. He has to take some other meds due to other problems he has for his heart, but he’s doing good considering. After surgery they’re hooked up to a Christmas tree of IV’s which can be a little unnerving to see. I was with him about 15 minutes and fainted lol.

        All the best to him….and thank you Emmett for sharing your experience with me. You were very helpful.

  57. St. Jude valve keeps me going to. Took awhile to get used to the ticking noise. I feel very fortunate.

  58. is anyone working on a theory/theories where you actually draw the blaze onto the poem; therefore architectural?

  59. The Arch. Possibly one to act as a Threshold onto which to afix a Mezuzah (a portico of dimensions), and it could very well be inverted. Has anyone noticed the inverted arched word ‘know’ just below the B for HoB? Looks like a drum or vase.
    The lenticular writings of Fenn in his Memoirs (his own epitaph) point to a cultural ‘cathedral’. Remember, where has he stated his church to be? The architecture I am referring to, though it stands in threesome vertically, conveys the elements of the Chase; Metal, Water and Wood. And it responds to the double 10 fold, or scale. 10:1 It also squares the circle.
    And there are other scales pertaining to sound (53TET), but that’s another type of structure altogether. Sticking with the architecture of the poem, I think 2,4 is very telling. Perhaps the comma represents a silence (H) similar to an exciting trill that can lead you to a thrill. All the way to the gene box.

  60. The poem indicates HoB as a historic date; August 13, 1720
    A relevant date concerning the most northerly advance of the Spanish into North America and the only incursion into Nebraska. It also involves New Mexico, as this contingent departed from Santa Fe Presidio.
    Architecturally speaking, the poem reveals a Calendar. B sits on one such date.
    Cheers!
    PD. You can read more on the particular story of Pedro de Villasur at
    http://plainshumanities.unl.edu/encyclopedia/doc/egp.ea.041

    • Anton, your historical reference is interesting. I understand that H is equivalent to 8 or August. Solving Browns numerical value gives 72. Where are you deriving 13th and 1,0 to place before after 72? Also, following your methods in previous solve 72 should be further reduced to 9. Left me confused as to methods. Are you able to help me understand your methodology. When it comes to assigning alpha numeric values my opinion is the method must be consistent thru out your solve.

  61. Lia, I am glad you noticed and took the time to analyze in detail. I have made several comments posted all over this website.
    Allow me to explain; B is the only non-character of the poem. It is a 1 and a 3.
    The poem’s grid is a Calendar. 31 days across, 12 months from rows 1-12 and their inverted reflections from 13-24. Therefore, row 17 is in fact August.
    So you now understand 13th of August. Row 17 and column 20 gives you 1720.

    When Fenn spoke of 9 clues and 5 keys, I believe he hints that poem requires people to find 9 different ‘things’ that somehow, tie together. A macro-puzzle.

    So far, I have proposed the Chinese Fen, the Olive Warbler, Bagpipers, Bees,
    The Title of The Cross (Basileos, Rex), Bible quotes(obtained in much the same fashion as the Enigma machine of WWII) and so on. In the end, how these will fit together, still remains to be seen.

    Lastly, I don’t believe in having to view the poem from a single perspective. If anything holds true, is that FF mixed and matched as much material and as many topics as he could to make this a tough riddle.
    I look forward to posting more ASAP. Cheers and Thanks.

    • Anton & The wolf,
      Anton, thanks for explaining B as a noncharacter 13 in the poem. Im trying to determine how the 11 B’s play out in the poems architecture, what they are, and if I can plot them on my map. (didn’t make any headway). Any suggestions? I ran across the following info I thought you and The Wolf may be interested in.
      OWL => (13, M,W, B) Athena, Minerva all equivalent to treasure http://www.ancientlosttreasures.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=87&t=13680

    • Hey Anton, hope you are enjoying a terrific day. I’m
      Having fun trying to add feathers to my solution. Trying to determine if the B value is true at 13 or false at 0. And I’d consistent thru the poem. Since you guys have some amazing solutions centered around B’s what value are you assigning to B? Read up on bool and looks like the writer assigns the value.

  62. Well it’s Valentine Day. My gift to all ia no chocolate, fowers, or dinner. Instead I will share a secret that I will whisper just once. Unable to finish my journey last year, I will once again head to my destination. I shall not flutter by, nor happen on the spot. I have always considered the “begin it where warm waters halt” in the language of Forrest to say, “begin it where cold water starts “. Happy Valentine Day all !!!!
    Aarrrgghh……..

  63. 166: 83+83 (11)(11) Let’s see… 166 word poem. Two 83 halves (not elves, elven).
    Wise AND. Tricky.
    Speaking of Architecture, this means FF built the poem under a quincuncial plan.
    He gave you a Quincunx!
    Indicated by the IDEA characters of the four corners, he is letting you know there is a central element. The words Wise + and.
    If this is symbolic of God’s wisdom and it also represents the prisoner in the cell,
    then perhaps that explains the lenticular epitaph. Something written on the dome or arched ceiling. Sort of like an airplane’s clear dome or firmament. This is also deeply related to the ‘Lozenge’.
    Camouflages, Cote of arms, and even the golden Duck. A ‘B’ duck!
    This also explains the mirroring effect of the poem grid. June 15th.
    166 th day of the year
    199 days remaining in the year in a non-leap year. idea also looks like leap!
    Cheers.

    • Pure Genius Forrest (& Anton for understanding the master of the poem.)

      I’m trying to read up on sacred numerology.
      (3) intelligence masters the (4) matter /corners to unify the being – IDEA numerical values=19>10.completion>1whole.
      3 is the culmination of 1 unit – the Trinity; 4th dimension is reality.

      9 clues: 9 represents wholeness and completion – often expressed as an arch – vault of heaven. 3×3 or TTT under a living arch. I wonder if Forrest found living arch of pines to hide the treasure beneath?

    • If you’re searching for quincunx, look no further than the seuence of quincunx and shields upon the border of the bronze treasure chest lid containing the treasure itself, and again the quincunx of pips on each red, green and black die of the game Kismet, which comes to mind from the story of fate in TToTC.

      The poem, having been printed in multiple configurations and styles, both centered and flush left typographic alignment, and actually having a residual space as a central element due to the even number of stanzas, does not to me evoke the essential characteristics of quincunx. Conceptually you might make it work, but was this Forrest’s IdeA…

      However, the “five” is enfolded elsewhere in a more straightforward manner, I believe.

      Halogetter

      • I certainly appreciate the bright minds offering ideas as to the poems architecture. Thank you. I’m stretching my mind to keep up and still render my solution to fit F’s no ciphers, codes, etc.

        Halo has a valid point in that f obviously chose the exact spacing, center and flush left to printing for specific reasons. Imo an inverted cross shows in this format which can be righted when correctly solved. But f also allowed for Antons grid to reveal helpful phrases.

        • Yes. Inverted crosses, honeycombs, constellation alignment, slippers, cryptic messages, numerology, a big slice of pineapple pie and a sack full of gaweas will put you to where you seek……….
          Up some creek without a paddle…
          Aarrrgghh!

        • Pirate, don’t forget the Goddess Nike, I hope she draws nigh with a confirmation of treasure near by! LOL

      • How did I miss the conversation about quincunx, electricity, computer…including the mastermind of Sir Thomas Browne?

        Oh, that’s right I was finding a day job to keep my daydreams alive. Probably leave treasure hunter off my resume?

        I’m convinced one could graduate with a useful life lessons certificate of some kind from this hunt.

  64. A bissextile year ? Hmmm. Seems to be walking us back in circles between the Fern I recently quoted and the ‘Fun/Fen things’ quote from the book. Sort of like a loop or pattern. A Cosmatesque inlay within the poem? Let’s try some Idea leap (ing) and come back with more. We only have till the 20th.

  65. It’s Ager Ager not aarrrgghh! Right? Bridges, Time and Money: No return.
    When will Miss US be coming home? She’s getting old. Here, the Pueblo people are claiming what’s rightfully due back. Paeans!

  66. Anton:
    Another reference to Thomas Brown: In 1658, the English philosopher Sir Thomas Browne published The Garden of Cyrus subtitled The Quincunciall Lozenge, or Network Plantations of the Ancients where he outlined the mystical interconnection of art, nature and the Universe via the quincunx pattern. He suggested that ancient plantations were laid out in a lozenge pattern. (wicki)

    Lozenges appear as symbols in ancient classic element systems, in amulets, and in religious symbolism. In a suit of playing cards, diamonds is in the shape of a lozenge.

    The rank of 1st Sergent is displayed on a lozenge badge.

    In heraldry, the diamond/lozenge shape is reserved for women alone.

    In logic the diamond shape is symbolic of possibility.

    If the poem’s structure is symbolic of God’s wisdom
    it’s interesting to note in column 24(x) the last letters down are E DEO or “there exists God”

    • I believe E Deo would translate “From God.” Imo, the idea in the 4 corners is a clue to the path that your eyes follow to see it. Counterclockwise, circular, non- linear. It is a hint to how to solve the poem. The solution is non-linear and circular.

      Time is linear. There is a beginning point and an end point. Timelessness is nonlinear, beginnings and endings intersect.
      He threw Time in the trash. The solution is nonlinear like a labyrinth. One true circular path if you know where to start.

      Will the poem lead you to the treasure?
      “Yes if you know where to start.”

  67. I have been bewildered as why folks want to use Sooo much information that to me just seems to be force fitting something to make what we believe to be clues in the poem. There have been statements, interviews and Q&A’s that ‘seem’ to suggest just the opposite. [ just recalling from memory ] …were there any books that influence the poem? No… Which in my opinion says reading up on philosophies, the bible, Greek gods etc, shouldn’t help at least when it come to the poem. Fenn as stated, No codes , bible verses, knowing head pressures etc.

    [ we all have read that statement in the past ] yet i see so much talk about these things. Also, Is there any US history needed to solve the poem, NO. Fenn has stated all that is need to find the chest is the “poem” The book as a reference , Google Earth / good map.

    Other comments such as… the poem is difficult but not impossible…and…some are over complicating the poem… as well as… a comprehensive knowledge of geography would help. also tells me IMO that the poem has nothing to do with any outside sources. [ many searchers will not like my last comment lol ]

    ” Show the poem to a child ” comment has been talked about many times, but could it be that is not so much a clue as most hopefuls want it to be but, the perspective of looking at the poem. Children learn by doing and there minds are free of all the garbage that adult have taken in over time.
    Children learn by repetition as well, so is the comment read and re-read the poem over and over a hint as to the way a child learns?
    Fenn in a Q&A recently made a comment that { paraphrasing } is Basically is tired of repeating the comment to go… back to the poem and re-read it over again.

    My point to this is;

    A question was once asked. If in the far future your great great grandfather handed you a piece of paper with nothing but the poem. No understanding of fenn or comments or interviews etc. Just the poem itself, How would you find the chest?

    I would like to the same question but slightly different. If you were handed the poem and only the poem, 300 + years ago armed with only a comprehensive knowledge of geography, [ and without all the books, schooling and the internet or any knowledge of fenn’s statements we have available to today ].

    Do you think you the poem could be solved?

    • I couldn’t agree with you more Seeker …….. But I will agree any way .. lol

      I must say , at the begging of this I read a lot of Seekers posts . I like his perception of the poem only. I felt the same way …

      WHY??? I found my spot with only the poem posted on this site and the use of F’s web site . My explanation is childish in a way …
      Because , I loved to play treasure games as a kid , love hide and seek … But , also I didn’t have the awesome education that most of you have had, where m not influenced to see it in any other light then what I had learned from the poem .

      I know that is kind of weird … But, I look at things backwards if that makes any since, kind of like this ; you can give me a object … I don’t know what it is … But ill pull the layers apart until I know what the thing is Im looking at… like De engineering it .

      THE POEM

      I agree with seeker , there is no CODE! I have posted so many different aspects I have looked at , codes included , like Victors honey comb theory… Well you can find that same pattern in the first Stanza breaking it down into word by word definition using only Pie index that has a mathematical equations only.
      All those codes I found lead to dead ends…

      There are a few ways to see the poem , easy to want to fit the pieces , but only thing is … they only fit one way .

      I have to agree with ya Seeker … NO CODES! Don’t mess with the poem…. The poem will lead you right to it. Let a child read it to you… A simplicity that has been lost in this day and age …

      Could we find it 300 years ago NO. The places existed , but the clues didn’t … I think that’s what F said.. My spot ,,, It was there … but the clues were not ….. But , Using the understanding that Seeker is using now … Yes I think it could be found in the light that seeker has posted….

      Always a pleasure to read your posts Seeker…

    • No, the poem could not be solved by a person 300 years ago. Just like the comment that it will be more difficult to find the chest in 3009, or whatever, much has changed in the last 300 years. There was no written history and certainly no comprehensive geography of the rocky mountains.

      • El,

        Ok. But there is a big difference of 300 years to over a 1000 + when looking at it in geological terms. The comment you reference to was, it would be more difficult because of unknown changes. But you said a definite ” No ” to the poem being solved 300 year back.

        And I would argue the point that people Knew more about the land and animals that inhabit the areas better then most today. maybe not understanding an eruption of a volcano or why an earth quake happens. but they knew the existed and the effects they had on the land, they new of solar movement and the effect of seasonal change. They knew a lot because they had to survive without the comforts we have and the Weather channel we have today.

        as well as written history goes…Is the writing down of history that important? the native Americans use verbal teachings for their history passing it down from generation to generation.

        Why would that time span { 300 yrs } be “No” to any solving of the poem and not to 1000 + year in the future?
        Fenn only said it would be more difficult, Not 100% impossible. Or are you saying the clues could Not Match the geography of 300 years ago?

        Could you elaborate on your comment?

        • The places that the clues take me are not all natural; some are man made and at the very least named by man and recorded sometime in the last few centuries. Going forward, a location will continue to have it’s history 1000 years into the future even if the geography changes or is paved over. The location will be more difficult to find, but it’s history has been recorded.

          If one believes that the clues refer to only naturally occuring places, then perhaps it would be possible to find it using the poem clues in 1715. I don’t follow this line of thinking.

    • Seeker,
      You bring up a very good point. The poem is the master and it is very easy to let one’s imagination over complicate things. A part of me believes that there is a very clever magical solution involved but that means one must still keep their imagination in check and in line with the task at hand. It is so easy to find very good fits to the poem when one considers how deep they can go into the research.

      That said, I believe it can be solved with poem only, but it has to be simple enough that it rises above all the imaginative wanabee competitors. IMO there is a trick to the poem (similar to any really good puzzle) that will allow one to prove beyond any doubt at least one of the major clues. The rest I believe requires research (he said that) and learning (he said that too) – the hard part is to figure out what kind of research and how deep to go.

      As far as the book and other references, these resources do not drive the bus but rather keep the bus rolling on the proper track.

      The Wolf

      • To answer your question, could it be solved 300 years ago with the poem only? No, because some of the clues did not exist then.

        • This was for Seeker, my previous comment was deleted – for reasons unknown. Too bad – it had some good stuff in there too.

        • Ah! the clues did not exist because fenn did write them until after 1988… BUT “most of the places clues refer to did.” Nice try Wolf…lol. Come on now, do I look like I was born yesterday? We both have been at this for about the same amount of time.

          But you do bring up a good point. Are all the clues physical and if they are. Then why would it be impossible to locate the chest 300 years ago IF a person at that time had the poem as it reads today?

          • Seeker,
            I was just bringing up a technicality. However, that tiny little issue could explain a lot, it could be the difference between success and failure. If at least one of the places did not exist and it is physical, then that change of existence adds confidence to the solution. Assuming the solution is straight forward and the places (he used that term) are physical, then a change (addition) in geography (place) for lack of a better word from his child hood until he wrote the poem in at least one of the clues is required.

            I have added this to my “Fenn solution confirmation checklist” as a hard requirement: must have physical change in at least one place the clue refers to since 1930.

            Of course if one chooses to take a not so straight forward approach, then ignore what I just said.
            The Wolf

          • Well, I previously commented on this, but it didn’t appear after your comment Wolf, it is above after Mark J’s, …..but essentially that I also agree. Of course if it is all “physical”.

            Actually, I’ll also say that it doesn’t even need to be after 1930, but could have been anytime after he came up with the idea.

          • Lets go with what you said for a minute Wolf. {just summarizing} The clues did not exist when he was a kid because he made the clues up for the poem some time in 1988 and beyond, but “most” of the Places” the clues refer to did… we agree on that.

            So now comes the thought of IF only one clues { or more } clues didn’t exist when he was a kid, was it created by natural or man made causes?
            I ask for the reason that fenn answered No to the question of US history involved with the poem. Is it not true then, if anything man did after the start of the USA as in history, would still be considered ” US history ” even if it was done by a private individual or even a private company. One example the rail roads… private companies, yet a big part of US history.

            So the conclusion IMO… that the one or more clues that didn’t exist when he was a kid, has to be a natural event.

            What say you?

          • Seeker your quote:
            “No to the question of US history involved with the poem.”
            I can’t find the exact quote right now from Forrest… but, if he was indeed talking about the poem… well then say the railroad (or a private company or individual) could still have effected a place on the map…:)

          • Spallies,
            I think the full quote can be found on Mysterious writings In the Q&A’s to the best of my knowledge it was… is there any knowledge of US history needed to solve the poem? answer No. there was more so you would need to look it up.

            But to your comment : well then say the railroad (or a private company or individual) could still have effected a place on the map…:)

            I said this in a response to Wolf as well. Every thing man had done since the start of the USA is US history. is it not? Private companies such as the raid road was was and is a big part of US history. The opening of Yellowstone as the first National Park made the railroad companies build their systems to there and beyond for travelers to visit.

            So how could a railroad or station or anything involving a railroad be a clue if No knowledge of US history is needed in anyway?

            That is my dilemma< if in fact his comment truly means what it says, then only natural events can be a clue when referring to a 'Place".

          • Seeker,
            “So the conclusion IMO… that the one or more clues that didn’t exist when he was a kid, has to be a natural event.”

            I understand how anyone who requires a natural event to occur to substantiate their solution would certainly agree with your line of thinking. However, if we look at this objectively, I do not think that one can rule out the manmade object based on whether it is considered US history. I could argue that “comprehensive knowledge of geography” is in fact another form of knowledge of US history. Comprehensive does imply a detailed knowledge (complete; including all or nearly all elements or aspects of something) including how something is created whether manmade or not.

            That aside, I am not convinced an extremely strict or tight definition of US history necessarily applies to FF’s intended use. i.e. a bridge is built and is recorded in some formal record or even a history book, is it excluded as a possible place because the bridge is now a part of history? I would suggest that it is not a part of history in the context of which FF used “history” even though it will eventually be a part of history.

            My interpretation of Fenn’s use of the word “history” as none requirement to solve the poem was in the context of NOT having to know every minute detail about an historical event as a definite requirement to solve the poem.

            For example – the Vietnam War is an historical event. A clue could have something to do with the War in some small way but solving the poem doesn’t require a detailed knowledge of the War to solve it. It may not require any knowledge at all of this war. However, a piece of research linked to the war could be used to help understand or prove the poem is correct.

            Another way to look at it is if someone solves the poem today and then explains they solved it because of an event that occurred in US history. Would you call that a breach if it is obvious that anyone else could logically solve it using some other fact and logic and was not dependent on the US history; but that historical event just so happened to be the catalyst for that individual?

            Sorry about the length of this post but sometimes taking Mr. Fenn’s words too literally can actually hurt us rather than help us. Everything must be taken in context – IMO.

          • Seeker – I have to agree with Wolf. Anything that has happened on US soil in the past, natural or man-made, is technically a part of US History. Fenn’s statement was not intended to be quite so exacting as you would like it to be.

          • –I’ll try to reply here since it doesn’t want to go above with seekers post–

            “Mr. Fenn, Is there any level of knowledge of US history that is required to properly interpret the clues
            in your poem. ~Steve R
            .
            No Steve R,
            The only requirement is that you figure out what the clues mean. But a comprehensive knowledge of
            geography might help.”

            Forrest does not say that a knowledge of US history would not be beneficial to solving the clues; just not required.

          • Seeker, the making of quake lake is a natural event. However it is also historical. Would this event be allowed in your interpretation?

          • Good point kat. The event or natural occurrence was not man designed, for lack of a better term. Even though we know of these events and put in the history books. is it not still a natural event that IF lost to history… written or verbal… somewhere in the future an smart archeologist or even a smart guy like Russell Osbourne could uncover that event because they know how the land works.

            It was said “Russel Osbourne could read the land like no other”
            Yet most of the places he went was totally new to him and no knowledge of those places before hand. Just his knowledge on how to read the land.

            Anyways I enjoyed all the responses and need to go pound my head against a brick wall now. Thanks.

          • “Mr. Fenn, Is there any level of knowledge of US history that is required to properly interpret the clues
            in your poem. ~Steve R
            .
            No Steve R,
            The only requirement is that you figure out what the clues mean. But a comprehensive knowledge of
            geography might help.”

            Forrest does not say that a knowledge of US history would not be beneficial to solving the clues; just not required.

          • “Mr. Fenn, Is there any level of knowledge of US history that is required to properly interpret the clues
            in your poem. ~Steve R
            .
            No Steve R,
            The only requirement is that you figure out what the clues mean. But a comprehensive knowledge of
            geography might help.”

            Forrest does not say that a knowledge of US history would not be beneficial to solving the clues; just not required.

          • I wish to interject a thought. If I buried a large pot, then placed the chest into that pot, then covered that pot with a flagstone, then wrote a clue about the pot, calling it a blaze for example, That would not be a natural event, nor would it have existed prior to me entombing it….so your logic is slightly flawed in my opinion.

          • Seeker-

            We have no way of answering that. Virtually everything in North America has been named in the last 300 years, or renamed, so one reason would be if particular names are required that did not exist back then.

            Another reason would be the very significant differences of meanings and common interpretations of the English language.

            There are other factors as well.

            Halogetter

    • Seeker if I’m understanding the premise of your question I would say yes. Folks are way over complicating the chase, which Fenn seems to be having a lot of fun driving them insane.

      Reminds me of the old joke:

      Two sisters, one blonde and one brunette, inherit the family ranch. Unfortunately, after just a few years, they are in financial trouble. In order to keep the bank from repossessing the ranch, they need to purchase a bull so that they can breed their own stock.

      The brunette balances their checkbook, then takes their last $600 dollars out west to another ranch where a man has a prize bull for sale.

      Upon leaving, she tells her sister, “When I get there, if I decide to buy the bull, I’ll contact you to drive out after me and haul it home.”

      The brunette arrives at the man’s ranch, inspects the bull, and decides she does want to buy it. The man tells her that he can sell it for $599, no less. After paying him, she drives to the nearest town to send her sister a telegram to tell her the news.

      She walks into the telegraph office, and says, “I want to send a telegram to my sister telling her that I’ve bought a bull for our ranch. I need her to hitch the trailer to our pickup truck and drive out here so we can haul it home.”

      The telegraph operator explains that he’ll be glad to help her, then adds, “It’s just 99 cents a word.”

      Well, after paying for the bull, the brunette only has $1 left. She realizes that she’ll only be able to send her sister one word.

      After thinking for a few minutes, she nods, and says, “I want you to send her the word, ‘comfortable.'”

      The telegraph operator shakes his head. “How is she ever going to know that you want her to hitch the trailer to your pickup truck and drive out here to haul that bull back to your ranch if you send her the word, ‘comfortable’?”

      The brunette explains, “My sister’s blonde.”

      “She’ll read it very slow.”……com–for–da–bull

        • POG, good. I have two bison and an alligator that wandered onto my property. Wondered if you’d like to purchase them. I plan to use the money to fund another search for treasure. You can ride along with me, but leave the livestock at home.

          • Have you named them yet?
            People sometimes get upset when I eat their pets..
            I’ll take all three.
            Mmmmm. Bison steaks and gator tail….
            New luggage too..
            SOLD!!!!

          • Purste, The gator is named Ford. after you’re done with him he’ll be F.ound O.n R.oad D.ead! We give the bison numbers to match their ear tags. These two are 19 and 13. When you make bison burger out of them please send the skulls to Mr. Fenn and rename them Wall and Art.

      • Goofy,
        Yes, the premise was to not over think the poem. even thought it is difficult.

        But I have been brewing over two comments from fenn on the No knowledge US history needed. and the, “Most” of the places the clues refer to did existed. Most… being the key word in that answer. if one or more “places” did not exist when he was a kid… is a clue a man made event or natural event that he is referring as a place? or is one or more clues not physical at all?

        • Seeker I try not to strictly apply what Fenn has said unless he’s very point blank about it. Even then we might be interpreting what he said wrong. Not in Idaho or Utah, not associated with a structure, not in a graveyard, not in out house, etc. He seems to tell us where it’s not. All of these statements refer to the location of the chest. So they don’t necessarily apply to the clues. The poem could start in Idaho or Utah for example.

          The only information he has specifically given out about one of the clues as far as I know is WWWH; and it is not a dam.

          I find those statements you refer to interesting…….He said no US history needed, but he didn’t say it wouldn’t be helpful. And then the question of what is considered history comes to light.

          His statement about most of the places existing is interesting. As far as I know there is no way to prove one way or the other if the places are man made or a natural phenomenon. If one considers it to mean the places are natural that would narrow down some of the clues I suppose. But which, if not all, of the clues are natural or man made. Could the blaze be a fire caused by lightening for example? The recent floods on the Front Range have completely reconfigured some areas. But in a couple years it will look as if that is the way it has been forever. I think we need to be careful not to let Fenn’s hints lead us down endless rabbit holes.

          This opinion is good for thirty minutes or thirty miles which ever comes first.

          • Goofy Old Guy, where is it that Forrest stated that WWWH is NOT a dam? I have not been able to find the statement where he says this.

          • Here you go Anthony:

            MAY 2014

            Many searchers have thought that warm waters halt at a dam because water being released through flues near the bottom of the dam is much colder than water on the surface of the lake. I have discussed around that subject with several people in the last few days and am concerned that not all searchers are aware of what has been said. So to level the playing field to give everyone an equal chance I will say now that WWWH is not related to any dam. ff

            http://dalneitzel.com/2014/05/16/scrapbook-sixty-eight/

          • Sorry to cut across your conversation, but relate to this segment, Goofy, is it possible to add a search bar to the website? It may make it a whole lot easier to find quotes etc?

            Apologies if this has been asked elsewhere.

            thanks

  68. Wolf,
    I just read your last two comment. I too have been having some problems submitting a reply or comment…may just be the weather.

  69. I agree with The Wolf. I mean, how hard is that to get? 🙂 He said that some of the places that the clues refer didn’t exist, …..could only be one, but that’s all it takes, right? One missing clue, …..and the poem cannot be solved.

    Absolutely could not have been solved!!

    The bigger question though, should be:

    “What clue/clues would not have”?

  70. I agree with The Wolf. I mean, how hard is that to get? 🙂 He said that some of the places that the clues refer didn’t exist, …..could only be one, but that’s all it takes, right? One missing clue, …..and the poem cannot be solved.

    Absolutely could not be solved!!

    The bigger question though, should be:

    “What clue/clues would not have”?

  71. Suppose I were a contractor and I began my build by following the blueprint which I studied and was certain I understood. I get my materials, build my foundation then commence to framing. But darned if I can’t figure out why it’s not adding up. It’s not fitting together like it supposed to so I have to ask myself, “where did I go wrong?” “What should I do?”
    Start over. Obviously I missed something somewhere so I’d better start back at square one, and this time, follow the blueprint as it directs, not as I think it should. Of course, I’m a dumb contractor for not doing it that way in the first place! Guess I won’t make Angie List!!!

  72. Seeker/Wolf,
    Geography is all about the human and earth relationship. It is not just about physical places. “Comprehensive” seems to imply an in depth knowledge of the whole picture. I do like the this topic though…

    • Ken,

      Definition of Geography: the study of the physical features of the earth and its atmosphere, and of human activity as it affects and is affected by these, including the distribution of populations and resources, land use, and industries.
      -the nature and relative arrangement of places and physical features.

      The word “places” was used because that is the word Forrest used.

      • Wolf,
        You missed the point. I would challenge you to a debate on the definition of Geography, and Forrest’s implication of a “comprehensive knowledge” of said subject, but I’m afraid it would be a one-sided affair. Good luck to you in your endeavors and stay safe…

        • Ken,
          Don’t be so hard on yourself. I guess you missed my point too. Good luck to you as well!

          • Wolf,
            As a parting shot, look up the word “comprehensive”…then take a deep breath and exhale… you’ll be ok. Harvey Goodwin ! All good fun, sir …

          • Ken,
            I have already done that and I wrote about what I believed “comprehensive” means wrt geography many months ago. Your point has already been considered. “Places” was just one aspect of that conversation since FF used that word and was what Seeker and I were discussing. You seem to be pointing out what we (or at least I) have already mentioned and discussed.
            The Wolf

  73. I believe I just figured out why several people have been within 500 or 200 feet of the chest but did not know it….VERY CLEVER FORREST!! They GUESSED the correct WWH and took the correct canyon down, but missed it from there. I am feeling more and more confident!!

    • Mike…ur probably the best person on any of these blogs at codes….look at just those words where WWH. Do you See anything? Yup. Just like that! Crazy eh? At least I think so…and it keeps on goin! I’d say it but I don’t wanna blab and I know u think like that…try running with it 🙂

    • MD,

      Whoa, ……..whoa there cowboy!! That’s too simple. I’m like, hey, that’s Where Warm Waters …..Whoa!! 🙂

  74. Seeker asks:
    “I would like to the same question but slightly different. If you were handed the poem and only the poem, 300 + years ago armed with only a comprehensive knowledge of geography, [ and without all the books, schooling and the internet or any knowledge of fenn’s statements we have available to today ].

    Do you think you the poem could be solved?”

    The answer is no. The poem would be meaningless because Forrest Fenn didn’t live his life yet. The meaning and motivation of the chase came from Forrest’s contemplation of his life experiences. Facing death from cancer, his father’s suicide, his school experience, Vietnam, and all the rest.

    Near the end of his time and about to enter timelessness, he is exploring and looking for ways to insure his time has meaning. Other writers, poets, and philosophers have explored and contemplated the same questions. He quotes many of them in the book. Shakespeare, Mencken, Khayyam, Eliot, etc. Do we need to read these other people’s ideas to solve the poem? No, but it may help to understand the questions and thoughts that they expressed and how they expressed them to understand how and why Forrest structured his poem and his clues.

    To solve the puzzle in the poem (where?) you need to understand the meaning of his memoir which is the story of his life (why?). If you showed it to a child, isn’t that what they would ask, where and why?

  75. When looking at Forrest’s background and the history he has uncovered in the old artifacts, it seems to me that a possibility of the poem’s interpretation could be similar to the drawings the Indians did on the walls and cliffs. The drawings depicted different events but also showed geographical points in the area that would give a map.

    Could the poem be such a construct?

    Might Forrest have left us a map to go by?

    • Lone Aspen,
      That is interesting. I have always had that belief, that when he tells you to look down, you will find a flat rock with drawing of a map that will lead you straight to the chest. I am very sure that the flat rock is in New Mexico. That’s where I would go if I was looking. Trust me…

      • POG,

        I think that flat rock is the poem.

        As far as New Mexico, I’ll bet you’re looking elsewhere!

        And nothing wrong with Lone’s line of investigation.

        Halogetter

        • I never said anything was wrong with line of investigating. As a matter of fact I agreed with him. I believe there is a map on a flat rock in New Mexico. Go look and find it if you don’t believe me.

          • “And nothing wrong with Lone’s line of investigation.”

            I was just talking about Lone’s post, not your comment. Please don’t misundertake me. No worries. 😉

            Halo

        • Didn’t you see the commercial that
          FF did? He all but said “come to New Mexico “. Where else could it be? It’s in the forrest with the pinon pine. I would explain more, but I’m trying to load my kayak. I’m going to New Mexico. It has to be warmer there than here.

          • Whoa…I wonder if he was doing a commercial for Coke he would say drink Coke? Right. Because it’s fun to spend 15 years writing a poem an creating a search then just telling everyone where it is. Yes. That’s quite logical. Now if he spoke about CANOES…???….you could go strait to parrot island. But you already knew that, right? Ur too funny. Arrrrggghpppfffftttt! 🙂

          • Lol pirate 🙂 I guess that depends on your meaning of stuck….one of us flew across the country, climbed three mountains, took a canoe trip, and met some very interesting people and much much more. We also spent a few extra hours on top of one of the coolest mountains ever, having a bonfire and a snowball fight while waiting on a tow truck.

            The OTHER one of us was you.

            Who’s more stuck again now? Lmao 🙂 tell me you’re going kayaking again or something to save face. Narcissism is a slippery slope my friend. It’s actually a form of disease. It will be quite difficult for you to avoid professing about another skill of yours after this or quickly putting someone down while changing the subject with an ARRGGH. I can hardly wait to hear it…maybe I’ll include it in my doctoral thesis 🙂 c’mon now…the clocks a tickin’…let errr rip!

          • I rest my case. And further look forward to you being extra helpful to someone in an attempt to create an illusion that I am wrong. Take it easy slick 😉 and remember-this is supposed to be fun!

  76. Never believe a ” pyrite” when talking about treasure. You’ll end up overboard for sure…or marooned on a deserted island.

  77. RE: The architecture of the poem – leave it alone – as in -I have gone alone in there

    But I’m kinda like Peggy – remember after years – Peggy would rather switch than fight. It’s all in the knowing when to switch.

  78. First post but I’ve been working the poem for months. I wanted to throw domething out there for my felloe fennatics to ponder. I was looking at the poem yesterday as I do every day. I took a particularly close look at Fenn’s use of contractions he chose to use in the poem. It’s, there’ll, you’ve, I’ve, I’m. The “missing” letters, if you were to write out the cintractions (It is, there will, you have, etc.) Are I, WI, HA, HA, A. Using the words Nigh and High in a crossword style “Down” answer, the letters appear to spell: I WIN HA HA HA. If you make a grid (again, crossword style) there are few ways one might decide to fill in the blanks. I don’t know if I did a very good job describing it but I wanted to share that and maybe get your thoughts on it. Hope everyone is doing well.

    I WIN HA HA HA
    I I
    G G
    H H

    • http://dalneitzel.com/2014/05/16/scrapbook-sixty-eight/

      MAY 2014
      Many searchers have thought that warm waters halt at a dam because water being released through flues near the bottom of the dam is much colder than water on the surface of the lake. I have discussed around that subject with several people in the last few days and am concerned that not all searchers are aware of what has been said. So to level the playing field to give everyone an equal chance I will say now that WWWH is not related to any dam. ff

  79. “Begin it where warm waters halt” that’s a still standing body of water. Warm though: a hot water spring. “and take it in the canyon down, not far, but too far to walk, put in below the home of Brown” Now there is a canyon called Athabasca Pass near British Columbia, it’s between two mythical mountain peaks by the name of Mt. Hooker and..get this…Mt. BROWN. There is a single body of water that begins at this “canyon’ (Athabasca pass) and flows downward. Call me crazy but that’s not a bad place to look. It’s near impossible to walk all the way there too. The pass is also about 1600-1800 meters above sea level…which is, hang on to this…about 5,000 FEET above sea level. Which regards Mr. Fenn’s clue.

  80. when the chest is open, it makes a keystone symbol..
    with that I thought about making the poem line up like an arch and the “keystone ” clue would be clue five..

    clue 5 to me was “just heavy loads and water high”
    I thought that was the most important clue to get you in an area that is close to the area he is describing. This was the most descriptive clue in the poem.

    and maybe you make an arch when you follow the clues…once you find the chest you will go out a certain way..

  81. I wasn’t sure where to place this question, but this topic seems to be the the best guess.

    Is the structure / format of the poem Important to the solution or even a clue[s] itself?

    Some examples; All stanzas being 4 lines or each line having a certain number of words was six stanza necessary as a piece of information needed, etc.
    Is the poem deliberately design or is it just the way it ended up?

    • Seeker,
      You asked a few questions here that I have been thinking about – Is the structure / format of the poem Important to the solution or even a clue[s] itself?
      At first I didn’t think the structure was that important but then after I analyzed the entire poem I feel much different. IMO the structure is very important to understand the clues and I will even go as far to say there is something in the poem the helps one understand the sentences better\with more info.

      and then again –
      Is the poem deliberately design or is it just the way it ended up? IMO the design is deliberate and here is my reasoning behind that idea. The structure of the first half of the poem is very similar (almost identical in structure )to the second half leaving one to think that Fenn completed one half of the poem then liked the design and then reproduced the other half with the same structure. This is why stanza one has the same structure as stanza three and so on. There are some differences and they appear to be a mirror images of each other such as stanza two has commas in the first sentence and stanza five has them in the second sentence. I’ve come to believe the commas are very important because they give even more structure to the poem. To me it seems like the two half’s of the poem are like the pillars that make it structurally sound.

      After reading mostly everything in this thread due to Fenn saying he felt like an architect when creating the poem and I was somewhat surprised to see very little about the structure of the poem. And I did like your question about if the poem could of been solved 300 years ago.

      • Count,
        Some thoughts were; Numbers of words in each line…7567 for stanza 1. and so one. I found 6 peaks, well five peaks with matching elevations in my area and on elevation in the saddle of the pass. with four creating a diamond shape and the saddle in the center, this left the last number to be exactly the trail head elevation. Ending with an elevation point of a lake, three mountain peeks, mountain pass, and trailhead. I thought that was a very interesting find as the poem lead me to this area, and the numbers presented them selves. What are the odds that, the only three peaks be exactly match to the stanza word counts, the lake to another and the trail head to the last… and make a diamond shape, Then add in the line “the end is ever drawing nigh” to the picture and what i found was End = Boundary line, drawing = pulling or drainage, and nigh as in left or west which place me on the next boundary… with the saddle of the mountain pass dead center between them.

        Another interesting count was the A in As to the T in treasure is 42.[including spaces]
        Yet another count was 9 sentences, 6 stanzas, 4 lines per stanza, 25 capital letters or 44.

        And last but not least the capital letter in each line, using the Alphabet to assign the common numbers … such as letter A as 5, letter B as 2, and so on. Interesting enough was it came out to be coordinates for that same area when using the 44 and the capital letters ~ all found after the poem wording took me to the area. I have set this solve aside for now and presently looking at a bigger picture.

        This new theory involve the clues as a description of a larger area but still a place[s]… My thought come from “in the mountains north of SF” The obvious answer was the RM’s and the warm liquid water[s] change in directions from east and from west and create the canyon down… with no place for the meek as the back bone of the RM’s the CD. No paddle up your creek seems to confirm creek as a narrow passage, and a non human trail. HLAWH finalize the thought… for now.

        You may see nine line usage here, but there is much more… example In the wood hints to mountain pass / saddle pass. and you may noticed I left out hoB with works with the ; has semi or 1/2. All above is still theory at work and I have two location for the latter solve and i need to decide which is correct… fortunately both lead to an area about the size of a two car garage.

        Again still in the works… and just another interpretation.

        • When I first started the chase I tried something very similar to what you described and all I found was some coordinates for someplace in new Mexico. Honestly I would prefer numbers to letters anyday but I did recently stumble upon the question you asked Fenn and he said no subterfuge. This lead me to analyze the poem the best I could stanza by stanza. When I did this lots of structure stuck out, mostly with the use of the commas. Have you looked into the serial commas within the poem?
          I’ve been trying to think of other long term physical features within the Rockies to throw out as ideas to see what you think, one of the best I could come up with is the major tributaries that that rocky mountains create(the major tributaries are fewer in numbers than all the creeks, streams and rivers that the Rockies create and longer lasting). When it comes to the poem and how long the clues may last it seems like we are on the same page but you seem to think a lot bigger in size than what I do. I got one more question for you have you read TTOTC?

  82. In regards to the answer(s) I already know discussion [in my thinking] F is pointing out that S is free floating so we use it where it makes sense. Now think about this, if he knows the answers then what do we have? Yep we have questions [if you listen good you can here the s in question] your ques to cease/just take the ches…let’s take that S and slide it in front of tarry 🙂 I believe the solution is in the stars…

    So long friends

  83. The architect was from Santa Fe? A friend of his?

    He is hinting at the fact that there are clues derived in his poem that are exactly as the blueprint of Santa Fe is laid as well. Moving from his comment that WWWH is ‘where his water heater broke and spilled warm water on his conrete floor at his shop’. Remember that comment with Jenny Kile?

    He then moves down Waters St., past the Eldorado Hotel, to the Canyon of the Santa Fe River, made into a walking promenade through the city, to lead you through to Agua Fria. The Virgin of Guadalupe is there in a statue with a flaming blaze behind her. The next thing you find is the Blatz Beer sign, and then you turn onto Canyon Dr. The area that has the most art in the city, You come to a dead end and “The End” is ever “Drawing” as an architect would draw a road that dead ends at a church,

    This all gives the poem a double meaning, luring the party to Santa Fe following the exact line and direction to a Brown Pelican preserve outside of Santa Fe, and to waters high at the resovoirs being made there, but the trail has been closed there since 2012 or thereabouts where these clues lead in Santa Fe, and the area is not any further north than the 8.25 mile boundary he drew from his shop, or even from the center of the City Limits. Its about 6 miles north of the center of the city.

    He is trying to attract the locals with this one so dont go tromping through the closed trail and getting in trouble….

    Forrest basically used this “Blueprint” to derive the clues, as they match the exact likeness when the history behind the statements in the location is reviewed, and it continues the adventure elsewhere, using the clues derived from the blueprint as a guide for locals from Santa Fe to remember on their journey.

    Its symbolic of an Architects Road Map if you will.

    • eldorado-
      Architects build buildings and use blueprints. Planners layout cities and use plans and drawings. I don’t believe the difference would be lost on Forrest.

      You refer to architects drawing roads in Santa Fe…It would actually be planners. The City keeps planners and engineers who work together to create roads and parks and trails and sidewalks. Once the City is “platted” the developers, builders and architects begin the private enterprise of populating the landscape with buildings.

      In my opinion Forrest would never mistake what an architect does for what a planner does.

        • I am a transportation engineer and it is the civil engineers that design the roads (blueprints). The planners develop where they would like the roads to be built. And the planners develop the zoning of the properties along those roads (streets).

        • Which type of engineer is like God? You know…the one that plans/designs the waste removal lines in the middle of great recreational areas?

        • Pretty much anything they want! It is the second oldest profession around.

      • I meant in reference to how an Architect would have been sitting right next to him helping him point out the similariites to the town for him to use as a Tourist version for the kids and locals to enjoy…knowing he didnt put it there….but as a similarity for locals to remember him by, maybe even reciting as they drive through the town through the Arts District on Canyon Dr.

        I meant the architect was a reference to the person who helped him, from the knowledge of the architectural blueprint of the city, to derive his clues…

        Geez, Dal you are so precise, maybe too precise, but the point I made is lost when it gets put into this type of expectation of a type of precision that you claim he would have made…

        The IMO part…..

        Besides my first job was working at the largest firm in the world, Turner Assoc, in Atlanta, GA, where we did BOTH Civil Works/Civil Planning projects and also Architectural and Structural Engineering Projects, AND were responsible for actually drafting city streets, city amenities, city buildings, city parks, and other places that you claim are handled by a “Planner”.

        You know, what an Architect actually does…….

        A planner says…..”Do we have this in the Budget?”…Then goes to the City Council and says “We need this, can we have the money to manage the project through our associated firm who designed the new areas”

        That’s the real difference, Dal…….the Architect DOES draw the roads, its the Planning department that calls them for their design and lanscapes after they “Plan” their objectives on a drafting table, using scaled drawings on the bottom layers, showing the sewer, the water, electric, adn a few other minor details that are merely handed over as guidelines for the masters to do their work.

        Architects have to submit their bids just like a construction crew would to the city, to earn the approval of the design, the cost, and function.

        That’s the difference in every firm I have worked, and that is two of the largest in the world when I was employed there. The 3rd firm was still International, just smaller projects to work on.

        Just my working experience, not why I think Forrest writes a certain way.

        • In the cities I work in, I have never come across an architect that produced engineering drawings. Only a licensed P.E. can do that.

          • Then there was this guy who designed our nations capital: Pierre Charles L “Enfant French-born American architect and civil engineer best known for designing the layout of the streets of Washington, D.C., the L’Enfant Plan. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pierre_Charles_L%27Enfant

            IMO isn’t ff just using the word ‘architect’ when he could have used brain surgeon or astrophysicist or any other word….? Can some one tell me what that countdown (wwwh) with 16 days left is all about? Who does that link belong to?

          • Our firm had both departments, design and engineering, and we often outsourced to other fiirms and collaborated with others in the firms I worked in.

            I am sorry what does this have to do with a derailed thread…? Everything….

            Yes there is an EXACT similarity to the puzzle in Santa Fe, Architecturally speaking, leaving right from his shop like he said.

            Forrest even spoke online saying WWWH was where warm waters spilled out of his hot water heater onto his floor of his shop.

            Yes Dal made a comment that made the whole statement seem moot…great ….awesome job reinforcing the clues i showed the forum.

            And here I am debating what a job of an architect is supposed to be doing.

            Cmon you guys are WAAAAAY TOOOO BORED….

            TIME TO GO HUNTING THE CHEST…..

      • Architecture is a visual art, and the buildings speak for themselves.
        – Julia Morgan

        My theory about the poem is that there is a text interpretation that leads you to a visual interpretation, all of which is under the watchful eye of Forrest Fenn.

        The end of the rainbow is a place of reverence and respect regarding something no one knows about Forrest, because after all everyone has a secret.

        Life is more worthwhile if your able to keep a few secrets IMO.

        • Agree 23, so does that mean ff would hope the finder is good at keeping secrets too?

          • Maybe so…. It certainly would be more interesting if two people could in fact keep a secret in this day and age of social media. So many people are quick to think they will become famous while finding the chest. Maybe it’s not about that at all if you are instructed to go in peace.

          • Doubtful 289 or 23.
            Forrest has stated repeatedly he doesn’t care who finds it and doubted they could keep their mouth shut about finding his treasure. No secrets involved in Forrest’s public statements.

        • 23 –

          I agree with you architecture is indeed a visual art.

          So he gave us visuals in the poem – in the book – in statements, in scrapbooks and really at the end AND also on the ground.

          Also there’s a lot more to being an architect that just drawing – so research, talking to folks in the area, and many other things many be needed to have a Grande finale’ solve.

          • Agree inthechaseto. The key may be in the symbols which serve as the legend of the map to the woods.

          • “a grand finale solve”
            Exactly what I was thinking. It’s got to be spectacular

    • @eldoradoenterprises I thought about starting (beginning) at ff old art gallery location and canyon rd etc. too. My question to you: What about the two trips from a vehicle in one afternoon statement with your solve location? In other news (way off topic and clearly a nuke-able offense) I just heard a piece of the missing Malaysian airliner may have been found in the Indian Ocean! Way off topic but in line with vanishing and missing things/mysteries….flying, vacations, travel, exotic destinations for rich treasure hunters, etc. etc.

  84. There are probably a lot of way to convey steps to the architecture process, but I am fond of this particular one which starts with an interview.

    It’s not too disparate of a comparison to the poem IMO. Reasoning is that an initial interview would give Forrest the information he needed to proceed with the chase or not. This goes back to my feeling the the chase maybe be a two way street. You chase Forrest and he chases you. Fun is where you find it folks.

    The Process of Architecture

    Step 1: Interview and initial discussions
    Step 2: Information gathering + documentation
    Step 3: Schematic design and feasibility
    Step 4: Design development + permit documents
    Step 5: Construction documents + permit acquisition

    http://blog.buildllc.com/2008/09/the-process-of-architecture/

  85. Sorry for the interruption, but the architecture of the poem is an ABAB rhyming structure which often delivers a melodic, lingering tempo.

    carry-on…

    • Rarebird…ABAB? Have you thought about looking a little bit deeper on that? Maybe to Whole Whole Whole Half? I’m just assuming you’re interested in the tempos of the poem and that might help give you a better jump start than ABAB…just IMO of course…carry on 😉

      • Hi JJ,

        I’m not necessarily interested in the tempo, the poem’s structure is what it is, ABAB. Most do have a rhythmic tempo. It certainly won’t help find the treasure. I was mostly just poking a little fun. The man wrote a poem, he’s not building roads, bridges, buildings.

        I like what 23 said about the text interpretation leading to a visual interpretation. From there it’s mapping and defining, no place for the meek 🙂

        I love the way Fenn alternates from mapping to boots on the ground, don’t you?

        have a great day

        • Wow, thanks rare 🙂 I was tied up in tempo, a schizophrenic dog, and a thunderbolt…sounds like you don’t need any advice on laying down a beat in the bones from an old piano player like me. I’ll go back to minding my own business and not offering my two pence.

    • The ABAB rhyming structure also features a Bridge, and a Round, which become quite literally physical objects in the Chase.

      ABAB alternating also shows the descriptive clues alternate between the right path and the wrong.

      If it was a movie, it would be a flashback within a flashback, and only Bruce Lee achieved that back in the day and made it out of both flashbacks alive,

      I am still lost in the one that took me there to the Blaze in the first place….!!!

      LOL

  86. IMO, it could be as simple as an architect being someone who creates a two dimensional representation (the poem) of something that is in three dimensions (the quest).
    Geoff
    “Have flashlight, will travel”
    (And taking the kids this time!)

  87. We’re talking here about how the poem works, how the clues work. I believe that Forrest has, multiple times and very emphatically, given an incredibly revealing clue to the nature of the poem. Not a hint that will help solve a particular clue, but an actual clue as to the way that the poem that he has “crafted” works. “It is an architectural plan.” While it is actually a poem, he is not saying that the poem is like an architectural plan, he is saying that it IS one. The other thread addresses thoughts about the architectural plan, but it suits the thread here at the moment. I’ll put this in the architectural plan thread as well…

    So what does “It is an architectural plan” imply?

    An architectural plan takes a long time to develop, and includes all kinds of meaning and information. It is not simply a drawing- that is the medium, whether done by hand (a rarity these days) or on the computer. One primary difference we can get out of the way up front is that most architectural plans are the culmination of a team effort, usually multiple coordinated teams, and yet the Poem is the work of only one, as we understand it. So Forrest is working in the classic manner of the solo architect, completely responsible for the initial conceptual design, the schematic and design development, every detail, and lastly to the final set-in-ink plan.

    Forrest used the singular word plan, not plans. So let’s focus on the architectural plan. There are many people who look at an architectural plan and cannot “read” or understand it. They may have a sense of how the planimetric footprint they are looking at corresponds to some future real building or place, they might recognize the doors, walls, windows and other elements, but they do not simultaneously comprehend both the “big picture”, which Forrest suggested we look at, yet also the multitude of detail and graphic information, the symbols, the specialized jargon, etc. An experienced architect will understand all of these things, and immediately recognize how to use the plan to actually set forces in motion to make a real building which is many times the size of the drawing, and a contractor must be able to read the plan as well (or he won’t have a paddle up his creek).

    The plan is to a particular SCALE. This is critical. It is also critical that the person reading the plan understand the legend(s), or key(s), on the plan. Taken together they are an integral whole, and they work together. But the plan is very “straightforward” and logical. There is no extraneous material, you need “every word” so to speak. It’s meant to be as absolutely clear as possible, and not open for interpretation. That is a difference between the intent of the architectural plan- little room for interpretation, and the intent of the poem- much room for interpretation. But still a plan nonetheless.

    So we have the Poem. Forrest’s chosen and perhaps best analogy is that it’s an architectural plan. He “felt like an architect drawing that poem.” Very elegant terms. So I believe that is in fact how the Poem works. He has stated that the Poem is “contiguous.” Again, that is a critical aspect of an architectural plan- it is incredibly contiguous. If there is any brokenness to it, you have huge problems. Everything is interconnected, very dense. And the plan does not work like a sequential path, going from clue A (architectural element A) to clue B (architectural element B), etc. It is an unbroken whole. And the Poem as well must have scale. How big is the geographical area that the poem is attributed to?

    So instead of all of the architectural graphics, symbols, lines and legends of the plan, Forrest is using words, phrases, rhyme. A different medium for the message. There is no legend outside of the poem, unless you believe that TTotC or tftw contains one, and he has emphasized over and over that all you need is the poem. He’s said there are hints in the book, and he has narrowed certain aspects of the chase with comments and answers, and there may be hints concealed elsewhere. That’s for you to shake out. But the poem itself, he says, “It is an architectural plan.”

    A plan for what?

    Not a building. But a contiguous place in the landscape, in nature. You are not going to go and build something physical out in nature using his plan, rather you need to use his plan to understand (conceptually rebuild) the existing place he is describing, or “the places that the clues refer to”. It’s already built! In a sense, it’s a backwards process from the architectural plan. With the architectural plan you can step by step, logically create a new building. But the analogy with the poem is that our ‘building’, rather the geography, nature itself, already exists, and he’s going back to the drawing board and drafting up a plan of it for you with words and clues.

    The sense I have, based upon this powerful concept provided by Forrest (and the poem itself), is not that he’s describing a path for Hansel and Gretel to take, from here to there to there, and so on. He is using a poem, understood as an “architectural plan”, to describe a place that is contiguous and unbroken.

    If you understand his plan, you can recreate in your own mind the actual place in nature from which he has modeled it. Forrest’s process, I believe, was like taking an existing old building, measuring it up, and trying to create a new plan that describes it accurately. Only instead of a precise plan telling everyone how to read it clearly, Forrest’s plan has challenging Clues, not concrete actualities. It is not as literal or straightforward as a plan. There is an extra step involved. It is meant to be mysterious, which an architectural plan cannot be. Imagine a contractor trying to build a building from an architectural plan about which the architect said “It is a Forrest Fenn poem”, meaning that the contractor had to solve clues to figure out how to build it. Or 50,000 contractors had to figure out how to build from a plan with 9 hidden clues… Crazy. So it’s interesting to see both where the analogy to an architectural plan works and where it breaks down.

    And the strangest part of all, and the very challenge itself, is that we don’t just read the plan, we need the plan itself, the Poem, to also figure out how to read itself! It is simultaneously the plan that can be used to re-create real place, and also the instructions on how to understand the plan. There’s the rub. And in lieu of suggesting that a comprehensive knowledge of architecture might help, he appropriately said that “a comprehensive knowledge of geography might help.” That may key you in to the idea of a legend, or a key. “There is more of a key.”

    But the analogy of the architectural plan tells me, and the way I read the poem reinforces it for me, that the Poem he gives us is the plan of place; a rather dense one. Clue solutions translate into understanding of place. Using it you can construct unbroken, contiguous place. It is kind of an overly on nature, and once you begin to understand it you can coordinate it with real maps and also out in nature (although the two may not align exactly, as many have learned). And just like an architectural plan where you can identify focal points, like the main entry or the hearth, for example, the Poem creates a place that also includes the precise location of the treasure chest within it.

    So I believe that the Poem is an “architectural plan” of real place, not a map as to how to get somewhere. There’s a difference in understanding. It is less like pins on a map connected by string, and more like a broad paintbrush stroke, a “big picture”, of place, that also includes key critical and unique details. He is trying to paint like his friend Eric Sloane.

    And as I see it, you don’t need to actually DO everything in the poem, you need to understand it. You need to understand the cold, as a clue, whether or not you actually experience real cold…

    The plan, the Poem, is the somewhere, the secretwhere.

    And I believe that the beginning is the end, even though you’ll not be in the same geographical place when you are done. And yes, he’s telling you about what the water(s) does.

    SYand42lbsHeavier,
    Halogetter

    .

  88. Wow Halo – This post, along with your post in the key word thread, describes my solution! Nice work. IMO

  89. “Forrest is not a traditional thinker tied to conventional ways of getting things done. If he were, his life would be dull, commonplace, mundane, boring. Instead, his life has been anything but humdrum. He has made his fortune and his reputation by thinking, creating and trading well beyond the bell curve.” [ Home page of this blog written by Dal ] And I believe very true to the way the poem was designed.

    The topic of this page is about; “What does Forrest mean by that statement and how will understanding the poem’s architecture help us identify the clues and find the treasure.”

    This understanding of how FF may have wrote the poem for the reader to understand, not only where the chest lays in wait, but to understand how to read the poem. Is at all possible after 5 years of reading the poem, researching so many different avenues of History, Codes, other Authors works, Paintings and Painters etc. Place all we see as clues / hints or even informative information or subtle suggestions on the back burner for a bit, and go back to a time when the poem was fresh in our minds? I think it is possible, and almost necessary to do so.

    Why should I do that Seeker? I have work for years perfecting my perfect solve and gone on dozens of searches… Well maybe just for that reason alone. The intro to the poem states: ” So I wrote a poem containing nine clues that if followed precisely, will lead the end of my rainbow and the treasure.”

    How does precisely mean dozens of failed attempts? Unless the design of the poem leads the reader to think all this, is just follow what the poem seems to be saying. Have we not been told to analyze the poem over and over.

    Lets start with the step by step set of direction way of reading the poem. Find what seems to be the beginning of our adventure and simple walk out the others place straight to the pot of gold. Yet, why is it so many searcher start in so many different places? are we to just take an educational guess? There have been said, to be well over 30,000 active searcher, even if you cut that number in half that is 15,000 possible starting points.

    Lets now go to different interpretations that have been said through out the years. Some read the poem as Birth or being born, some read it as death or the end is always near. Others read it as a journey etc. And some of those journeys involve others as well… Skippy, Marvin, artist, The journey of I. even our little journey to find the trove and use them as clues / hints.

    Then there are the code breakers, the cypher decoders, the astronomers, bible readers, linguistic professionals and Alien egg searchers [ Sorry folks that alien egg thing just cracks me up… I promise that will be almost, the last time I bring it up ].

    If the poem is all you need to hold true, as fenn has stated many times in many ways and too many to keep posting all those quotes. Would the poem, just like a architect would with his design, explain how to read the poem? We have been told of a “word that is key”… Not a key word. This seems to me, hinting that would be the case. And would there not be other hints in the poem that do the same?

    We keep asking ourselves, how some can get the first two clues correct and may have not known?

    Fenn has stated, { not in quote }

    So many ignore the first clue…

    With out the first clue you might as well stay home.

    “Need ” to nail down the first clue.

    I use to ask, are we reading the poem wrong? Now I’ll ask, does the poem tell us how it should be read?

    Did the architect leave information to show just that?

    • @Seeker, I got there through the poem. I backed into it and a few days later, it (the mental model) hit me squarely in the face. Everything one needs to become enlightened… and then expand it to solving for a location… is found in TTOTC. F suggests one only needs the poem. While this is technically correct I might also humbly augment that the book and other outside knowledge including geography sure helps a lot in “going to it with confidence”. F also makes lots and lots of other suggestions about his model through hints. Just about every time he makes a public appearance he has hinted at his mental model. The chest contents and its weight are also related to this model.

      #DontGiveUp
      #TryingToHelp
      #TryingNotToBeArrogant
      #StillNeedToGoThere
      #OtherwiseIWouldSay
      #IMHO

      • E.C. Waters,
        ” F suggests one only needs the poem. While this is technically correct I might also humbly augment that the book and other outside knowledge including geography sure helps a lot in “going to it with confidence”.

        Yes, absolutely. There will always be informational research needed. Even for a poem purist. Just not so much, of the research of the above mentioned in my post.

        This just like the comment of FF, there are subtle clues / hints in the book… “IF you know what to look for.”

        IMO… if you’re looking to find a clue / hint that works in your solution … you may be doing it backwards. I think you will see those subtle clues/ hint from the book, when you already have a good idea of the poem and not before. Again IMO that is somewhat force fitting a solve.

        I also would remind you… as it was my question and Goofy loves to remind me …of that fact… There is nothing in the chest that will help. Sorry for that.

        And as you, I’ll second your closing and say just trying to help.

        What I’m hoping to do here is talk about the poem’s structure and wording as to the architects comment. if there is something from the book you believe relates to that… I and i would, and I think others would appreciate what they may be.

        • @Seeker, re “the poem’s structure and wording as to the architects comment”, yes… I refer you to the words “mental model” as a hint about the architecture. Find and understand the model, then use the model in solving the poem for the location. I have to be vague or I will give it away before I run my final search.

          • I get the vague part. I’m not trying to push information out of anyone. I hope you don’t think that.

            I have said this before as to the architect meaning of words using, warm and cold as examples. The usages of those words as the same… yet opposite. They both mean temperature, but opposite. They both mean as a seeker but opposite. They both can be used as in life and death… Warm body, cold dead. They both can used is mannerism…attitude…etc. etc,

            A lot of words seem to have their opposites in the poem. Colorkid on another topic brought up halt, and why do most limit that word to stop. Are these words possible indicators not unlike a legend on a map for example.

            And why i asked the question, Does the poem tell us how it should be read?

          • Hey seeker- merry Christmas 🙂 this is just IMO but one way I look at the poem/book is that the poem describes the printing/publication process of the book itself. The title to the gold being TTOTC itself. Personally I had to ‘solve three times’ for that solve. But the first three clues basically leave you viewing the book itself as the ‘chest’. The confirming “hints” that don’t help you find the location but confirm that part are like if you count the gold coins in the photos there are exactly 256. If you take the paper weight in colophon (100lb platinum silk) that means 500 sheets weigh 100lbs or five weigh a pound. So the pages would be 30lbs. Same way for cover and dust jacket you get about 42lbs. To ‘jar’ means ‘to shock’ you may be shocked when you see it. It contains the 20,000 word autobiography…without quotes and a the TTOTC is just about 20,000. To me, those were pretty confirming hints that the book was the first ‘stop’ or ‘place’ so then I went to the book to find the second ‘stop’ where there is a whole other method but once again pretty uncanny “hints” to only be coincidences. Maybe this doesn’t help with your question, and I know it’s not E.C.s spot because Sept 9th wouldn’t work…but I hope it might at least offer an idea of how the poem might clue/que up the book. (Warm waters halt and size the binding, title to gold/title written in gold, I have gone alone in my ‘memories’/’memoir’ etc) so poem solves ‘chest’ to be in book…then you find chest in book at next ‘spot’. I don’t want to elaborate much passed that or the approach I took to the book but at least it’s a way of seeing stuff even though ONLY IMO. If you want any more lemme know- there’s a ton of co formers for just that part but I feel like I’m already typing a novel and you probably get the point.

      • I’m looking forward to reading your solve E.C.. It seems like we have very different ways of solving and I like seeing other peoples perspectives.

        • @seabee88 – I’m busting at the seams here. I can’t wait to describe it whether I actually find it or not.

  90. @Seeker, F describes the contents… 42 lbs, 265 american gold coins… etc. These are absolutely relevant and they do reference the mental model. As far as I can tell (and I’m not an artifacts amateur) the chest itself, the name and what is on it, is also related to F’s mental model. Everything about this whole thing is related to the model. From my limited capability and perspective, the guy is an immense genius for having set this up in this way. The past couple of weeks I’ve sent him OMG emails almost hourly. Dude’s gotta be sick of me; just guessing because he’s of course responded to none of them. As it should be.

      • @cholly… er… I try to avoid those rumors… But guess what? Even that could be seen as related to the model once one understands it.

    • Interesting stuff, E.C. That the things on the chest have something to do with the location; that seems a little hard to believe, but that there are clues all over the place is absolutely believable. But at the end of the day, one still has to solve the last clue or they’re not going to find it – per Fenn. That tells me the hiding spot is really, really good. Out of curiosity, what state are you searching?

      • @spoon… I may be mistaken about what’s on the chest being related. I’m not skilled at all with artifacts. But how he describes it would seem to relate to the mental model, not the location. With apologies, I can’t say where I’m looking yet. I’m very confident and way too blabby for a treasure seeker). These traits may become my downfall. I promise I will tell everyone here after I run my final search.

        • Like I said, you can’t find it without the final clue, no matter how close, and the state you’re in ain’t it. Just thought we might meet up on the trail in Montana. You seem like an interesting … guy?

          • @spoon, I’m a dad, 50, working at a large private corporation. The most interesting thing about me is that I’m looking for Fenn’s treasure. The rest of me is… meh. Just ask my kids. Well, don’t do that. That would be creepy.

          • 52 and just as boring, E.C. No kids, though, so I may be even less interesting. I’m not sure if looking for the chest makes me interesting to people or just weird. Maybe a little of both. Good luck with your quest. I understand your excitement. Nice chatting with you.

    • Hold the phone. This is what im talking about. AND i’m not downing your line of thinking but
      IMO should those, the 42lbs. and 265 American gold coins etc. be a must know as relevant to the poem… should they not be IN the poem. IMO it can’t be both ways. If your using something from the book or anything outside the poem it should hold true to the poem itself.

      Example; Yes you can find 42 in the poem. Is it the correct way to find it.. i’m not sure. But counting spaces from A in AS to T in TREASURE is 42 number counts. subtle hint? could be [ if we stretch it ] … I won’t “discount” … so how do you see “265 American coins” in the poem? Remember this is about the architect plans who wrote the poem… so if there is usage of a clue / hint it should be found there. That for me is confirmation.

      • Seeker- count the coins in the book. Literally. It’s 256. Poem clue leads to book. See my other post for further details. Email me if you would like me to explain the funny later part about ‘balls’ and why some seemingly innapproproate sexual natured remarks are actually hysterical puns on part of solve itself. Just IMO. There is a hint in chocolate salty ball…and also one inside the chest. Oops! Did I say that out loud. 🙂 jk

        • ok I’ll bite… um maybe i shouldn’t have said it that way. can ya give me your e-mail?

          • Jjones1 at zips dot uakron dot edu (looks like system at university is updating so it might be a bit before I get it but who know it could be back up already)

      • @seeker, 42 lbs and 265 American gold coins refers to the mental model. Use the mental model and knowledge of geography to then help solve the poem and find your location. The two (mental model and location) should be thought of as separate entities, but (in my opinion) are also related. Hints are most typically about the mental model, like THINK, doller, knowlege, leeve, the depictions on his bells, brown gravy, 42 lbs, a tangled telephone cord, George Washington, teachers with ropes, the Fechin painting, Eric Sloane, a hole in his sock, etc, on and on, ad infinitum. TTOTC and many of his scrapbooks contain these hints. This disorganized mess actually has structure and meaning. Doukopil missed it completely. To me, F is the genius and I am the dirt. When F says “all you need is the poem”, yes, the location can be solved without the mental model, but in my opinion it is much harder this way unless you can luck into it. Also in my opinion, luck is the primary reason it has tarried 5 years thus far.

        #HumblyHelping
        #TryingToAvoidTheSpoiler
        #GoogleWontConnectThoseForYou

        • EC,

          After the first few readings of the poem [ many moons ago ] I saw somewhat of what your saying. I even thought, before the “architect wrote the poem” comment, that the book was a foundation so to speak. The holder of the finish product and without a good foundation the product would crumble.
          So I do see where you’re coming from. And maybe why fenn said there are clues in the book because the poem is in the book… using that as a subtle hint find hints in the book to solve the poem. [ I personally see it just the opposite. hints from the book confirm clues in the poem, if you already know what to look for ]

          ” This disorganized mess actually has structure and meaning.” [ meaning the book ]

          This is where I fall short in understanding you. Because I see the poem the exact same way… and without the book. Sure it’s great to hunt down what may seem to be hints in the book and SB’s and Q&A’s and such.

          But are those same hints [ Book, SB’s QA’s ] in the poem? just written differently, and if the answer is yes. Then the poem can solve itself. if the answer is no. Then the poem is a collapsing structure.

          Buried vs. hidden
          Book vs. poem
          Hint vs. clue
          research vs. provided information
          over complicating vs. over simplifying
          After the fact statements vs. what was known at the start.

          Whatever ones ideas, interpretations, method etc. is, the only true complete analogy is…
          The poem did its job well

          When done with your search, I would very much enjoy reading your results of the solve.

          • Seeker,
            I was a poem purist for a year or more. I had not been following discussions. I had a foundation solve in the works too.

            Then I started reading the blogs more closely and learned about the new map. Hint? Utah and Idaho eliminated, Hint? So if these new facts from f are what they appear to be, I decided to read to see if f is going to come out with new helpful facts or the appearance of a fact. Example: the highlighted portion of the new map; is it the colored portion or the ‘bleached’ portions? Bleach is one definition of highlight.

            I wish I was confident all the new information was not helpful but… Argh

          • Welcome to my World Uken2it.

            I’ll tell you my thoughts on Utah and Idaho, 10200′, etc. I don’t nor never believed them as clues. Clues are only the 9 in the poem. Hints help to get to a clue, but not a clue themselves.

            The what is a hint vs clue debate.

            The “useless clues” from TV and such, are don’t dig up a grave, not in Nevada, Utah, Idaho etc. are not clues or hints they were and are eliminating factors, They don’t help to find a clue or hint of a clue.

            The useless clue debate.

            This is why I cringed when someone says, SB # 0000 is a clue. A informative and helpful piece of information[s] maybe.

            A clue? Not in my book.

            disclaimer warning;

            The proceeding is the opinion of the speaker and this blog does is not in agreement or condone the comments of said speaker.

            That’s my Goofy don’t nuke me get out of jail free card.

          • Seeker,
            You distinguished between Clues, Hints, Eliminators and helpful information. Also mentioned Misleading info. I had bundled Hints, Eliminators and Helpful info together in my Hint category. Without knowing the definitions of the three nor distinctions, they all seem to be helpful. Why do you distinguish the meanings?

            Maybe you can understand my previous email a bit better. It is tough to be a purist when helpful bomblet so are being sprinkled about. Anyway I do enjoy the discussions.

      • Hi Seeker — totally in agreement with you about the poem vs. book argument. The 9 clues that Forrest wants us to find are in the poem (not that I have any warm fuzzies about the specifics of clue #1, clue #2, etc.) TTOTC can be used for ~confirmation~ of a line of reasoning, but not as a unique source for a clue that is lacking in the poem.

        Which reminds me of a thought that keeps pestering me. Forrest has said the 9 clues are “in order,” which on casual reading everyone assumes means they occur in sequential order, left-to-right, top-down when reading the poem normally. But is Forrest being sneaky here? If the clues are actually in order from the bottom-up, wouldn’t they still be “in order” — i.e. reverse order? With all the antonym pairs in the poem (bold/weak, new/old, begin/halt-end-cease-done, warm/cold, meek/brave, tarry/go, not far/too far, down/up, take/give or keep/give, far/nigh) is he hinting to do the opposite of what you might expect?

        For the fair number of searchers who believe that Indulgence is in YNP, i would think there would be a certain attractiveness to the clue order being reversed. After all, the last line of the poem is “I give you title to the gold.” This seems like a bit of a throw-away line in a forward reading of the poem. But in reverse, it could be telling you something rather important: where to start. Perhaps he’s giving us the “title” of where to start: what is gold? It’s a yellow stone. 🙂

        • 8, 5, 4, 9, 1, 7, 6, 3, 2.

          zaphod73491, you omitted one other very important order, alphabetical order. While I don’t think this has anything to do with solving the clues, neither do I think Forrest reversed them either. IMHO.

  91. Seeker- 42 is a clue, but its not found in the poem. Geography maybe. my opinion of course

    • @emmett, just saw this and am compelled… 42 is definitely a hint, but I don’t believe it to be geography. I believe 42 refers to something specific about how to think, a mental model, an explanation #IfYouWill. I’ll be explaining this in more detail in a couple of weeks.

      #IMHO
      #SemicolonRightParenthesis

  92. Hey Dal, Goofy, you’ll enjoy this…

    [Disclaimer – I know Dal had NOTHING TO DO WITH THIS]

    Some coward hiding behind the name “anonymous” and using Dal’s name sent me the following email:

    On Aug 5, 2015, at 5:51 AM, Anonymous wrote:

    “DAL thinks you’re an idiot
    And I do too… Your theory is silly at best, leave the hunting to us pros you moron!”

    My comments:

    1. Dal tells me right here on his blog what he thinks of my theories, good or bad. He’s not a coward.

    2. Beware of using Dal’s name, he carries an ice axe.

    2. My kids told me I’ve arrived at success now that I have “haters”

    3. Continue to threaten me or attach Dal’s name without his express permission and I’ll ask the FBI to open an investigation.
    They would be very interested given international attention of TTOTC.

    5. BTW: “Silly” is a poor word choice when threatening someone.

    • @42, trace the email header IP address chain and forward it to the originating ISP with your complaint. It does seem ridiculous.

  93. Dal, Goofy, EC, et al. – thanks. I’m not worried, but have been down the interenet harrassment path previous to this moron’s harrassing email. Anyone who thinks privacy invasion or on-line threats are not prosecutorial should think again. Sue Scheff, an incredibly brave woman & friend of mine, spent years of her life forging new US Internet defamation laws.

    “In today’s technology-dependent world, the Internet has become a legal lethal weapon against the privacy and reputations of its users. Based on Sue Scheff’s landmark Internet defamation case that gave face to online harassment, cyberbulling, privacy invasion, and Google™ bombs (the practice of manipulating the ranking of web pages), and stirred Internet regulation and free-speech debates, Google™ Bomb arms readers with information, legal advice, and reputation defense (and clean up) mechanisms from one of the country’s top cyber abuse attorneys, John W. Dozier, Jr.

    Dozier, whose firm, Dozier Internet Law, regularly handles legal matters involving online defamation, copyright and trademark infringement, and hacking, uses Scheff’s story as a backdrop to lay the groundwork for a personal plan for reputation defense that anyone from business owners and students to job seekers and employers to parents and bloggers can implement easily and immediately.” Anderson Cooper

  94. I posted this in odds and ends earlier but I think it suits it here,,,sorry for the double posting….
    I am not sure also whether it has been raised before. It has been some months for me since I made up my mind on my ideal solve …just waiting for time and space (I am outside USA) to put boots on the ground to check my solve.But the point I want to make today is not about my solve but about some possibility about Fenn’s poem being a double treasure map.
    Let me explain.I am wondering whether we might be dealing with a poem that has two layers of treasure clues or two abstractions of treasure clues.Fenn had a chest of treasure and wrote the poem containing 9 clues to lead us there,,,that is one layer,or the outer layer,,,,could there be a possibility that there could be an inner layer of treasure clues which Fenn has deeply hidden?….another bigger treasure ?..and one has to find the chest first in order to locate a second bigger prize? I know it may sound far fetched. Here are some strange things in the poem in this direction.

    In the first stanza he says
    “my treasures bold” meaning his chest and then he says
    “And hint of riches new and old”,,, the new being his chest treasure while the old could be another ancient treasure that he wants to give hint about besides his chest…then with this introduction the rest of the poem goes on to give clues on how to find his chest treasue and culminates that quest by saying “Just take the chest and go in peace”.But strangely enough the poem does not end there,,,the outer message about the chest treasure might have been communicated but he wants to hint of another treasure which is ancient…and this inner treasure clue is more subtle than the first…he puts stanza 5 to tell us he knows what he is doing,he wants us to search as he did ,,but what are we searching for ?….his chest? Yes but more than the chest …he advises us to “hear him and listen good” and then he says “your efforts are worth the cold” and ” if you are brave and in the wood”,,,then comes finally ” l will give you title to the GOLD”,,,why on earth does he speak about giving title to the gold as he already said go in peace taking the chest? Could it be he is referring to anothrr treasure entirely of gold? You see the chest is not only of gold.The chest treasure has gold and other valuables but he says “the gold” at the end..could it be another treasure of gold(entirely gold)?…The chest belonged to him..he put it somewhere,he gave clue and if someone finds it he says “just take it and go in peace”…but on the possible other inner treasure he can only give “title” to the “gold” ,,maybe because he is referring of a huge gold catche (or gold mine) of some sort which he knew and may have benefited from it in the past and now wants others to find it…hence as this “gold” is not his own he can only bestow “title” as the finder files claim to his find to the authorities..this is in contrast to “take and go in peace” that he ascribes for his own treasure chest…I hope you grasp what I am trying to say.
    Hence in this alternative “Fenn poem treasure view” the chest treasure of Fenn has two roles..It is a treasure in its own but also a “marker” of some kind to lead the clever one to a more grand treasure.The outer layer of the poem leads to the chest but once one finds the chest in that vicinity or somehow related to that find one can decode the inner and more large treasure of gold (specifically gold).Hence the poem like modern softwares may he acting as a ” basic” map to lead to the chest,but can also be used to decode another gold hoard if used in “advanced mode”.Hence the chest treasure may not be the end but acts like a marker to be a means to an end in finding some larger hoard of gold….

    If this theory is correct,I may have some impression on the nature of this “ancient treasure” of “gold” that Fenn is communicating in his poem…. but I can not say at the moment…But I hope I have given you one theory to consider as you crack this mysterious treasure poem.If you think it is a stupid and crazy idea just ignore it.What I say does not derail anyone from getting the chest but rather I am offering some ideas that may go beyond the chest find…ofcourse all I write is my humble opinion and I may be wrong.

    Tintin Treasure

  95. Not a crazy idea at all. Without a doubt the poem has multiple levels of meaning. That certainly could be one reason why. Personally I think there is only one treasure but the solution to the poem leads to something that acts as the 10th clue (X). Which is what you need to take the chest. I think take the chest and go in peace is the end. The reason it appears in the middle is the poem is non linear similar to a labyrinth where the end is in the center. Yes the clues are contiguous but you need to know where to start.

  96. is there anybody else out there that believes the 9 clues are literally 9 lines drawn (from 7 distinct directions) that form an unmistakeable shape?

    i remember in a specific radio interview when ff said something like… once you get the first couple, the rest become easier… that IMO describes the lines forming. (the big picture) Directly following that statement, he said something to the effect of … what you do with them ?i’m not sure? i believe this in this interview he was talking about a hypothetical family going out in their pick up truck to search… can anyone point me to this specific interview? it was probably last spring/summer. If you happen to remember, please post. thank you.

    • here is what i was looking for, thank you anyway.

      http://www.eisradio.org/item/003/

      this is an amazing interview, truly. but i wanted to remember certain things-

      specifically, at roughly 12:50- “there have been some people very close to the treasure chest. There have been people that figured out the first couple of clues, and walked right past the treasure chest…” (i know this has been discussed)

      and roughly at 35:18 “the clues are there, they’re not easy to follow, but certainly not impossible.”

      and 49:35 “yeah, i have some advice. read the book. and then study the poem, over and over. read it over and over, maybe even memorize it. and then go back and read the book again, looking for hints that are in the book that are going to help you with the clues that are in the poem. that’s the best advice that i can give ’em. You have to find out, you have to learn where the first clue is. They get progressively easier after you discover where the first clue is.”

      other simply great quotes by ff from this interview-

      “the greatest thrill is going by yourself; you don’t know where the edge is unless you look for it.”

      “I just wonder what i’m going to do with all this character” ff

      but the thing i’m still looking for- I swear last year I hear an interview when ff said something like there are 9, actually 10 clues, but one of them won’t help you. can anyone point me to that?

  97. There is a line in the architecture of the poem that tells you the way to solve the poem.

    So why is it that I must go
    And leave my trove for all to seek?
    The answers I already know
    I’ve done it tired and now I’m weak.

    Which of the poem lines does that?

    What if you were to read it like this:

    So “Y” is it, that “I” must go

    If “I” must go where “Y” is, you have a letter switch.

    When you switch letters it’s called anagrams.

    Mr. Fenn has never dismissed anagrams. An anagram is an anagram, not a code or cipher, etc. He has used every word around anagrams but has never stated the word anagram. And he won’t……

    A quote from Mr. Fenn:
    It’s fun to arrange words in such a way that it makes you smile at the end.

      • Somewhat true. Dal and Forrest were privately mailing back and forth to each other about poem writing. Forrest told dal not to mess with my poem.
        dal made it public for all to hear. I wrote Dal about this.

        My mail to him:
        I have a question about one of your cheats. When Forrest told you to not mess with his poem, were you mailing privately at the time?
        The reason I am asking this is that most of his clues he issues to the public are done in an interview or through his own typing.
        Has Forrest actually typed this clue himself? I appreciate your answer because my brother and I are in heavy feud over this one.
        We both need some kind of clarification. Sincerely

        Dal’s response:

        I believe it was while I was at his home. But I honestly don’t recall.

        Mr. Fenn has never said publically not to mess with his poem.
        According to Dal’s response, he was at home but he doesn’t recall.

        Mr Fenn won’t comment on this. Many have tried.

    • Hey OH!
      Replacing symbols like that is a Cryptogram which is also type of cypher. An anagram is rearranging the symbols not replacing them adding or changing I’m pretty sure.

      Your and your brothers “Don’t mess with my poem” comment I don’t think can be settled anywhere. If F had told Dal “Don’t go take my gold” would that mean not too? Have EITHER one Of you looked up the word “mess”? Or how many poems he considered “his” even? I just mean With so many contexts the point is moot for either of you so unless you just like arguing maybe pick an solvable debate.
      BThe same with the comment about no amount of math helping solve clues/find chest. I mean you could solve all the clues without but then need a code to use on the solution…or the other way around…look at the exact quote and I’m sure you’ll see that more often than not if you define all the words most of F’s quotes usually state something and then repeat\confirm the subject in the predicate. Completely removed from any context the statements would stand alone just fine. Like

      “You will never need to watch a television, but knowing if they make them in Rolex might help”

      ^^ a million people could think Rolex is a clue….when ALONE this statement merely uses the predicate to let us know that “watch” is a noun in the beginning. One couldn’t watch a television and more than they could camera their dog….thy looking at his statements alone. I think most a witty entertaining puns that fit well. Just an observation and hope it may ‘Barry’ any arguments between you guys 😉

      • In 2012, Dal met with Forrest at his home. They were discussing the poem and why halt and walk did not rhyme. Here is a re-cap from Dal:

        By the way. A couple of years ago I had a discussion with Forrest about “halt” not rhyming with “walk”. I was suggesting that one of those words might not be the right word and once the real word was put in place…and rhymed…that things became much clearer…
        Forrest listened to me for a little bit and then jumped in and told me very directly, “Don’t mess with my poem.”
        So I have not tried to change his poem in any way since then…
        dal…

        Forrest did state: “Don’t mess with my poem”

        It appears that what it actually means is:

        Don’t go changing an original word in my poem line with another that rhymes.

        Yet people do not know the above circumstances of how the conversation took place and are applying it to the entire poem, This seems to make searchers think that many methods are now excluded because it leaves the poem to read at face value. I see where people talk of anagrams, alphabet count, etc. then think it applies to that method which detours them in perhaps a wrong direction.

        It clearly reads above that Dal was speaking of a single word change of the original poem and Forrest directly told him ” Don’t mess with my poem”

        What were Forrest thoughts as Dal spoke of Halt & Walk not rhyming.
        I believe his thoughts were of rhyme structure. The A & L in the middle of each word Halt & Walk is a form of poetic structure, therefore rhymes. His thoughts were: Don’t mess with my poem rules.

        To be fair to fellow searchers, ” Don’t mess with my poem” needs to have an explanation of the conversation beside it so it doesn’t lead seekers astray.

        • Dude…the ONLY seekers that would be lead astray are the ones reading your post and thinking this is a clue. If forrest at that point had stated “Don’t go taking my treasure” would that clearly state we shouldn’t? You seem like you feel cheated and are imagining you’ve been cheated. It wasn’t a clue and you haven’t even defined the statement. Grow up a little now.

          He said “don’t mess with my poem” you are making claims about what it “clearly states” when the whole basis of your asking is that it DOESNT clearly state anything. Both your own ideas. Your arguing with yourself and I would like to imagine if forrest were right here he would smile at you both and say “don’t mess with that statement”

          You just can’t. It wasn’t a formal clue, he has said he will never give those and I believe him.

          It almost seems like you’re not worries about the statement anyhow just trying to make it look like some clue was unfairly given. Are you related to Mike or Crow? The undertones in your statement smell just like the ones they were directing at others yesterday.

          Don’t mess with it. You weren’t cheated. Nobody knows what it means as it doesn’t mean anything as a clue since it was not given in that context. Period.

          And have you even looked up the definitions of mess yet? Do you even know what they are? How can you guys even argue the meaning when you don’t know what the words mean anyhow? Talk about a “hot mess”….lmao. So it must be warm right? Come on now. Why fight if neither one of you even wants to open a dictionary. Look up “mess”. Start there.

          As far as HALT and WALK not rhyming? In what CoNTEXT WOULD they rhyme? Oh…I don’t know…a “Marching Call” maybe. And if you look up WORdS like MARCH you might find this stanza as a nice place to practice using “MARCH” as a month, a verb, an adjective etc. And then you can focus on the poem and understanding things instead of making vague posts with veiled undertones? Lol. There’s some help for you and now you have something special too so you’re a cheated if you win . Lol. IMO.

          • The definition of a slant rhyme is when there is a close, but not exact, rhyme.

            An example of slant rhyme is barn and yard.

            This is the same as Walk & Halt. Notice the middle letters.

            Please do some research before applying knowledge, You won’t look so bad.

  98. Yes. You probably learned that from me when I just told you to look up Army Marching chants. They use slant rhymes.

    Army: mess hall
    To mess with someone.
    To eat with them.
    To mess with Dave=
    To have lunch with Dave
    Don’t mess with my poem.
    Don’t have lunch with my poem.

    A.K.A.
    Don’t mix business and pleasure. I’m NOT answering questions or giving hints.

    Changing the subject to slant rhymes in laughable. I know what they are and this discussion has nothing to do with them.

    It’s about you, I’ll informed and not doing research and making vague claims as if there’s no level field. Put and “slant” you like on it, but a good one might be to look at the BIG picture or entire context of the quotes. Yes there’s slant rhymes, nouns…anything. But you making claims insinuating a hint or clue was given? the definition of slant rhymes won’t help you realize your foolishness. Understanding military jargon will.

    Knowing “walk” and “halt” as slant rhymes also won’t help you realize a “halt” is a temporary stop, or a skip. But a dictionary or military March calls will. Same with “Mess” if you truly want your argument solved and finished between you and your brother–it is now. You both have an answer. If you truly just want to claim people cheated because you aren’t willing to do your research and find your own answers by all means do that too. But it’s silly to waste time trying to blame others for your own ignorance and then get upset when handed a solution on a silver platter. It highlights your intentions…which don’t seem to be looking for answers as you claim. To each their own but I’ve answered your questions on logic and statements. No need to reject it/hate me or prove further ignorance it’s all on the above statements…none of which have I even contested the definition of slant rhymes. An Apple is also a fruit. So what? I’m glad you know a definition of something. If you want applause for using a dictionary on something not related to point of contention I can’t do that. But I am glad to know you are able to accomplish that task. Now just use it on what you’re trying to learn!!

  99. “Your effort will be worth the cold” Another word for cold is intense or intensity. Could mean your effort to get to the chest will be worth the intensity of what it takes to get there. That doesn’t necessarily mean the effort is going to be really, really hard and intense. Just saying it could mean that it takes some effort to get to the chest.

    For example, the area I believe the chest to be in will take some planning and effort to get to. But at the same time a 3 year old could walk right up to the chest with some assistance.

    How is that possible. Because in the area I’m going to search, first I would have to get to that state. Then I have to drive on the highway to a certain place. Turn off and drive 8.5 miles to the home of Brown. Next drive about another 8 to 8.5 miles into an area the meek dare not go. Turn off at the correct unimproved road that draws nigh, drive another however many miles, and then meet up with a trail. Once there and the truck is parked, me and the 3 year old hop out and walk up the trail to the hidey spot, which is just off the trail. Unless we get eaten by a bear on the way.

    But either way, driving up the unimproved road (probably need a 4 wheel drive or at least a truck) mostly uphill via a switchback is a fair amount of effort. Not easy but not overwhelmingly difficult either. Just another thought on what cold could mean other than water, or snow, etc. And I found out cold could mean intensity by Googling it. You can do the same.

  100. With two people claiming they both have “the answers;” neither with the chest, and neither of them saying much about their solves, I have to assume they probably have 2 completely different solves…which makes mine and yours all still valid. Architectural theorists: IMO we’re on the right track.

  101. hello again. The only friend i’ve made here in two years was Navigator, who I appreciated, we brainstormed back and forth for many, many months. Not many others respond to me, i keep posting anyway; but this architecture thread was my idea, I asked Dal to start it. So I’m reaching out here again to architectural theorists- those who believe that somehow the answers lie in the layout of the poem, a map so to speak. My question to them: keeping in mind “a word that is key,” would you agree the first clue is in the first line?

    And to the underdogs in this chase- the non-bloggers, the readers, the silent, the thousands of you who are shy, the ones not writing books about the chase, the brain-teaser puzzle solvers, the curious – your solves are valid.

      • uke- Its so strange the things we all see- how we all see so many things, thousands of different things, and we all find validity. my 2nd clue is in line 3, and repeats itself from lines 18-23. but the 3rd clue- is wwwh, comes a bit later. In my own delusions I have 6 clues, improbable to be so connected. the next 2 (7 and 8) are probably wishy washy.

        • leigh,
          I don’ t think its strange that there are so many interpretations of the poem. That is the beauty of a well crafted poem, FF has mastered his poem. He spent 15 years picking, culling and selecting each word. They have multiple meanings and interpretations, factor in a persons life experiences and realize that people tend to see what they want to see and now you have people looking in four states because they don’t know where to start or they think they are so certain it could only be, for example a hot springs or anywhere water is above freezing. Whats warm to me might be hot for someone else and what is cold to someone else would be warm to me, there are an infinity number of possibilities. Maybe that’s why FF use s the omega symbol.
          The bottom line is the person who solves this is going to think like FF and that might not be easy to do as he seems to be a very complex person to me.IMO
          jl

          • I agree JL, I am not here to argue – I didn’t mean it’s strange there are so many interpretations, that’s obviously the genius of the poem, the whole thing, the man himself. I meant the things WE see are strange- that’s what I meant by “Its so strange the things we all see”- specific things we see. I do let the poem guide me. I know how long he’s been crafting the poem, and I know what you’re saying- some see what they want to see. I did that for over a year. And I’m thankful I did, cause I got to go searching the state I had access to. It was the most compelling experience I can recall from recent years. Unfortunately, my millionth theory places the chest where I probably won’t go, reality bites. But I will send someone.

          • agree, I don’t want to argue either, i just misinterpreted “strange” no fault of yours.
            I don’t think a lot of people understand what they are getting into when they accept FF’s challenge. Interpreting the poem is one thing but going into the mountains have lots of hazard’s, and no place for “pilgrims” as the old mountain men would say.
            Why would you solve the poem to send someone in your place if I might ask?
            jl

          • It’s a matter of who you are. You have the the attitude to find it. Right:? Good Luck….old school 0 …Zero.

  102. i remember the last of our NM theories we could do in our four days… it was dusk, almost dark- we were on the worst, weirdest road and parked at our destination to hike. We saw a beware of bobcat sign. It was deserted. so. so. so. getting dark. far from anything. We freaked out, mostly from delirium and delusion of the previous days. We didn’t follow that last minute theory through. Its madness out there.

    I’m not saying I solved the poem at all. I never will (say I solved it). I have had many, many-a-theory. But this one is particularly peculiar to me. – maybe because I don’t want it to be there, and i never believed it was, and maybe because I had part of it for so long ago and didn’t let go. Thats the kite I’ve spoke of more than a few times on this blog.

    Monetary restraints, life, jobs… simple things. The same reason most people aren’t galavanting with weekly theories. It’s not the cost of going, it’s that paired with lack of income for the time i’d be gone for dreaming. I have a friend who wants to go out that way, if he can’t, I’ll ask someone here.

    I’ll be back in NM at the end of may, and i’ll come up with a theory, – like we talked about- making it up cause you want to… it’s not all based on nothing, but when you have the chance, you take it.

    Jl, I have no idea where the chest is. I just want to solve the puzzle, or someone to solve the puzzle, and I believe the answer is architectural. purely my opinion.

    best, leigh.

    • leigh,
      By architectural do you mean that the poem follow a predetermined classical design or the meaning of the words and how FF crafted it to fit his needs?

      I don’t think you need a complete theory to go search, heck I went on 5 this summer that I knew were not even close, but there is no replacement for experience. You see your flaws right away when you are trying to actual fit the pieces together, you learn the terrain is not what you where thinking ect.

      Its easier for me to be in a more receptive state of mind when I am out with nature. Why not go, not all of the clues can be deciphered from the key board.
      IMO
      jl

      • “there is no replacement for experience.” thats what i mean!! I don’t think it’s Colorado, but I have many thoughts on it- and a couple theories in the oven there- so if I happened to be there, I’d go searching. here is one: wwh= Delta, canyon down= escalante canyon (escalator- not far, but too far to walk) i could go on and on…

        but IMO, I think when ff said “it was written by an architect”- which is the whole basis of this page for me, he meant it colloquially- casually. The clues aren’t just connecting letters, or estimating equations of the numbers in the poem, or anagramming certain phrases, or stringing the letters from the string of the kite even (i did that for a year til i got here) – it’s finding out how to connect certain things. “The big picture” – all the little parts equal a whole.

        I only use a xerox copy of the poem page from the book. I believe it’s center aligned for a reason. I know on f’s website, the poem is aligned left. but in the book it’s aligned center. and that’s what i use. i have dozens of them- with multi ideas per page. I begin again and again and again.

        • I have many copies of the poem printed also but it doesn’t seem to matter to me how its printed, I date each one so I don’t confuse myself. I jot down thoughts that come to me when they happen so I don’t forget or overlook one as unimportant. I also summarize on a word document and store it on my computer, things such as why I think this and how to relates to that so that if I do have what I think is a clue I can prove it and not use it because I have a hunch. Every word used for a clue should have proof within the poem or it is rejected. I also document where I searched and why it failed and what happened that day. I do all this so that if I become to old to search anymore I can pass it down to someone in the family and they can pick up where I left off.

          I have been to Delta many times, have never considered it but some things line up in Ouray I think.
          jl

          • i have confused myself so many times- but this theory is a clear, abstract masterpiece. i’m sure it’s wrong, I know it is, but it belongs in the archives for sure.
            Until the chest is found, we can convince ourselves of anything. Creative thinking is good for the spirit. You know crosswords help your memory?

            I’ve looked into Ouray. Had a theory or three there, would have to go digging for my notes there- but i never had the luxury of being there.

          • maybe it was baldy peak?. – that was at least one thing. two biddies. and the ice park.

            just looked it up- I looked into Ouray for awhile when I thought WWH was Uncompahgre Gorge. Uncompahgre has various meanings- warm flowing water, hot water spring… I know it’s been discussed here- but i got it from myself. but that was back when i thought it was random luck. i’m too into the architecture- way too much.

          • one last thought here, Jl, I never really thought it was in Colorado, and I still don’t- I wanted it to be in NM, and it very well could be, I mean it could be anywhere- I’ve been out there searching- it could be ANYWHERE. I don’t rule anything out. But writing these notes with you reminded me I did look into intellectual avenues of where possible WWH could be over the years… and that was a nice reminder. Thank you for talking. sincerely.

            for everyone- dreamers alike- we have one thing in common- a thank you to ff for the inspiration. I’ve learned so much about landscape, geography, road tripping with my family, dreaming, possibilities, expectations, imagination, not giving up, reading, research, curiosity, mystery and mystique.

        • Leigh,
          I remember FF stating if you knew where home of Brown was you could go right to the chest. I don’t remember the exact quote. To get home of Brown correct you will have to have the correct clues prior to that, however many that may be. I think it is an over simplification to assume you could go right to the chest because you might not answer the clues correctly after that. Now if FF took u to some random spot and told you that this is HOB, then a person would keep working and working until they finally located it because they know they are in the general area. That tells me when you are certain you have HOB nailed down, rock solid, without a doubt, then you will figure out the rest if you continue working at it. The problem with this is FF is not going to do that. Its all up to you.
          IMO
          jl

          • Hi JL

            I think a lot of times FF just gets so inundated with questions – he throws a joke in there. He really has a great sense of humor. Also he occasionally will answer some ones e-mail in that manner – I know he has done that in scrapbooks. If I were him, at this point – the same questions over and over would get to me a bit. He’s been doing this for five years. Hang in there Forrest. 🙂

          • iinthechaseto,
            I agree I’m sure he does. He also allows it because he can decide who he talks to and how many interviews he does. In FF case I always try to listen to what he doesn’t say at least as much as I do to what he does. FF has his own motivations and where he hid the chest is not his only secret. We all hang onto his every word, but why?IMO
            jl

  103. Leigh,

    Those I disagree with you regarding any “architecture” associated with the poem, I do agree the TC is in NM or Southern CO (more likely NM). A number of obvious reasons for this:

    1. Let’s face it, and of course the TC could be anywhere, but I’m a logical person and I have been utilizing statistical analysis from day 1. The guy is 80 years old when he hid TC. It doesn’t seem as though he flies commercial very much, I know he isn’t flying his own plane anymore, so it was statistically probable (I will use that word often as not to upset anyone) he drove to hide the TC. We also know he went alone to do this. He spoke a couple times of being driven various places by other people, the bookstore in Taos for example. He doesn’t even drive himself most places of any distance anymore! So are we to think he honestly drove 10+ hours to hide the treasure? Doubtful, very doubtful.
    2. For a moment, let’s pretend the TC is in Montana or Wyoming. The logistics of getting there are very interesting. First, he could have shipped it. A small 50 pound box being shipped is very uncommon (nothing usually weighs that much), he would HAVE to get insurance on said box, and what do you tell FedEx? Yeah, it’s 2 million dollars worth of gold. LOL! I could only imagine the looks he’d get. Or perhaps he checked it at the airport? Are you kidding me? I wouldn’t leave 20 dollars in a checked bag on any airline, and I certainly wouldn’t part with a 2 million dollar package at any point it time. So maybe he carried it on the plane with him? 45 pounds. Again, very, very unlikely just based on the logistics of getting through airport security? Lifting it into the overhead bin? I’m not seeing it. So my premise is that he drove this thing somewhere.
    3. If he did drive, it is a statistical probability it was done in ONE day. Maximum of 6 hours out and 6 hours back, IMO. Personally, I think it was less than that, but we’ll deal with a full potential range of area. I’m in the medical field and work with the elderly often, even my most cagey older patients don’t drive more than 2-3 hours at a time. If he did take an overnight trip, again, I just don’t see him messing around with 2 million dollars in a hotel room, or leaving it in his car, etc. So this drastically narrows the playing field.
    4. His slip up regarding Pinyon Nuts…..I will forever believe this was an honest mistake in a moment of reverie for FF. He wasn’t talking about the TC or the chase, he was referring to the place he’d like his bones to rest forever and he was caught up in the moment. Pinyon Nuts only grow in NM and southern CO. ALL WITHIN 6 hours drive time of Sante Fe.
    5. His comment that “When I am in the mountains or in the desert, the last place I want to be is on a trail. Ain’t no adventure in that for me.” Cross reference that statement with his opinion of Yellowstone……”Generally speaking, there are places where one should stay on established trails; Yellowstone is one.” This rules out Yellowstone for me. Additionally, he talks about it too much, there too many “special” places in that park that were his family memories. He speaks often about how this place was HIS discovery, his special place. That all spells NM for me as it’s where he forged his life after the service. He became a self made man and accomplished his life’s goals. Fishing is great and all, but it’s a very small reference in this poem, IMO.

    I am prone to manifesto’s so please excuse the length…….but from a logical, analytical perspective, I don’t know how you could argue with much of that. Just some thoughts!

  104. @hurdlethief let me play devils advocate for just a second regarding obvious reason for TC being in NM, but first I too feel NM and/or S CO is the place. Pinon do grow in WY, I’ve posted maps from Nat. Forest Service on here before, but still I’d like to agree with you on that slip. Now, boarding a commercial plan, small puddle jumper from SF to where ever, not to many passengers. No problem, you check in the 20 pound chest along with regular suitcase and clothes and you carry on the coins and gems, heck you could wear half the stuff. they weren’t searching in 2009 and 2010 as much as they are now. They are looking for bombs and weapons not old coins and rocks. Also, the value of several million dollars is to us not to him, he didn’t pay that much for those old rocks and those coins. He can legally claim them if questioned and if the coins are in a bank wrapper they could appear to be just 5 rolls of coins from winnings in a slot machine or he says he is off to a gem and coin show, no big deal. Once in the trunk of a rental car it’s safe enough. He did beat around the bush when asked if he rented a car, why not just say yes or no, (because he can not lie)! I’m not ruling out a commuter flight if ‘how he got to WY or MT is needed to justify a solve. I’m sure the MT/WY searchers don’t worry to much about how and when he got up there, some know about his board membership in Cody and that could have been a justifiable trip for a few days. Anyhow, just my thoughts as nothing in the poem says which state to search, to me, other than first stanza could refer to what Spanish explorers had in mind when searching for El Derado and found New Mexico. IMO!

  105. Leigh,

    Great points all. Again, I’m going on straight “probability” that it makes more sense the treasure is close by. Even if it’s a 60/40…..the odds are still astronomically better that it’s within a 6 hour drive. Additionally, any thoughts as to why he didn’t include the entire state of New Mexico? All other states were left whole aside from NM. Even on the map he provided, it’s almost non-existent. You barely notice it, as if he wanted to hide that area. And then you have Montana, which by area is one of the 3 largest states. Really doesn’t make a lot of sense to me.

    And regarding the Pinyon, I understand they’re everywhere to some degree, but it is the state tree of NM (and Nevada for that matter). I’ve also been exploring Owl Creek Canyon just North of Fort Collins where there is a very odd growth of Pinyon trees that were brought by Native Americans years ago. They are basically only found in this spot so far North (in any major quantity). Of course there are theories on the owl and “wise” etc. So it was worth a look.

    Also, based on my WWWH, it’s in NM, so it all comes together for me. Just a process of continuing to cross off duds and circle the potential winners. Hope you’re coming along!

    • I lived by owl canyon for many years, I used to go thru it to get to the Pourdre river from Masonville. I have covered a lot of territory around there, I would be hard pressed to make any of the clues line up for that area. IMO
      jl

    • If ff hadn’t ruled out Idaho I’d be tempted to search there based on reading the early edition of ‘Flywater’! I read both current editions and the earlier one, the early one doesn’t mention NM that I noticed but the newer one does touch on it a little bit. And, if he hadn’t of said N of SF I’d be tempted to search the area where he played Mountain Man in Western NM! Prob. getting off topic here, good discussions though! All IMO.

    • Hurdletheif,
      You stated:
      “I’m going on straight “probability” that it makes more sense the treasure is close by. Even if it’s a 60/40…..the odds are still astronomically better that it’s within a 6 hour drive.”
      While other can come up with similar reasoning and probabilities for other areas. My question to you and the others as well is, How does the poem place you there?

      Simply saying it should be there, doesn’t say how we get to it.
      If we automatically think it must be in a certain region, are you not force fitting a solve for that region?

      I would also hesitate to under estimate ff ability, not only physical at the time of hiding the chest, as well as the planning of it. The ball started rolling in 1988, and concluded approx. 2009 or 10. That is some serious thought and planning in my book, and more time then all us searchers have had too search, by 17 years.

  106. Regarding the architecture of the poem:
    IMO ff is using a circular architecture. He has repeatedly said – Read the poem, then read TTOTC then read and reread the poem over and over and over. What this does, is takes you from Clue #1 (For me it is line1 of stanza 1) progressively to clue #9 (For me …in the wood).

    If I go from a place “In the wood, and it takes me back to line 1, stanza 1 IN THERE. IN THERE becomes where I am IN THE WOOD.

    If this corresponds to where wwwH is, this is conformation that where my wwwH is correct. If one can not make the connection, possibly your wwwH’s is wrong.

    Just my opinion. It works great for my solve…COME ON SPRING!!!

  107. Good luck JD. For me, I see the poem as levels. First level, solve for alpha/numeric. Second, solve for coordinates. Third, your “path”, or the 9 clues when followed precisely.

    To see if correct, I find commonality in the numbers. First, alpha/numeric come out to equal 80 and 57 which = 137=1+3+7=11. There are 11 lines in the poem that yield those values, 1+1=2.
    Second, the 9 lines to get the coordinates, when added by stanzas equal 8008. That happens to be the exact elevation of those coordinates. 8+0+0+8=16=1+6=7.
    Third, my 9 clues that yield my path, when added by stanza = 029211 or 29,211.
    When I add all three levels: 2 + 7 + 29,211 I get 29,220.
    29,200 is exactly the amount of days in 80 years. 60 normal years, 20 leap years. (365×60, 366×20). That’s a pretty far stretched coincidence. Seems to be by design, but we’ll see, come Spring.

  108. I have searched for the following for hours today. (I noted it last night and not the reference).
    f saying something like this in regard to the solution: ‘it will take the right person and the right thing”

    any help out there?

    btw with how many folks post questions like this somebody could do well and keep a very ‘compressive” list of things f has stated and then charge admission! or write a book and sell it on amazon (hopefully updated as time goes on), or create a webpage with ads that will subsidize your effort. you get the picture.

      • Architects have one purpose in the building and construction of something and that is to draw. There is no other purpose. People can complicate it to more than that but when you break down the general understanding of what they do that even a simpleton like me can relate! When Forrest made that comment about feeling like a architect that I IMO took it as to look more into the pictures and drawings in the book. The book was filled with illustrations and Forrest made several comments about books could use more illustrations. Another searchers asked about the drawings and Forrest did reply something to the effect of it wouldn’t be wise to discard them.

        My paragraph is not backed up with facts it’s going off of memory recall and shouldn’t be taken as fact. It’s also IMO and would be best if you did the research to benefit or credit your own solution and this would only be used as a general guide. Also I can not 100% confirm the email to the searcher ( Mindy ) was from Forrest but IMO I believe it was. Mindy thank you for sharing and I find it useful material on the chase.

        • Will,

          A Columbus, OH radio Station aired this interview with Forrest on December 3rd, 2015. It’s HERE.

          40 sec. into the interview fenn said: “don’t need to read my book, they need to read my poem, the book will help, but they can find the treasure if they can decipher the clues in the poem” [ listen for yourself to see if I got it right]

          Your comment about architect drawing or schematics if you will, can be done with the words within the poem as well. Simple example is; in, down, below, end, left, right, up etc. Fenn has stated the book for reference, hints/ clues no deliberately place in the book to aid the searcher, all the information is in the poem.

          I personally don’t hold much hype to e-mails that I have seen stated one way and change another, or not produced at all. The ‘late breaking new ‘ post is a good example of that, and the 12′ to the chest was another. Both inaccurate and at least one corrected by fenn ~ the 12’ comment. You know them as well as I do.

          So back to the words in the poem… i can see how one could draw a design from some of the words only within the poem, and have no use for the drawings in the book. IMO for a drawing to be needed as a clue, It would have to have been deliberately to aid a searcher… which contradicts most of what we have been told about the book.

          Just my opinion…

          • Yet another quote that seems to be directing the architect to the words in the poem;

            “The poem in my book is something that I changed over and over again. When you read the poem it looks like just, just simple words there. But I guarantee you that I worked on that. I felt like an architect drawing that poem.”

            All I see in these comments is fenn referring to the words in the poem.

          • I don’t take much into what reporters say or other searchers say but I do use it as a guide to float ideas. We really can’t say if one idea is better than another but unless it comes from Forrest that I wouldn’t put much merits into either of our solutions.

          • Exactly Will,

            That interview was by phone and fenn’s own words. To many times we both have seen another interpretation of something fenn supposed to have stated and it wasn’t even close the the actual comment. Folks need to read, listen, watch those interviews carefully. I recently read a searcher stating FF said you don’t need the first or last stanzas… when asked for a link… he couldn’t produce one… just going by his recollection. For me, That would be a big deal if was true, then again the source was not provided and can’t be, so I call BS. Some folks hear what they want to hear.

          • Seeker…
            That came from the Tony Dokoupil story in Newsweek Magazine. Forrest didn’t say it…Dokoupil did.
            He is a lousy reporter…and really did a crummy job on Forrest in that story..about three years ago ..
            That story is linked on the Media Coverage post in this blog as well as dozens and dozens of other interviews and stories about the chase from journos all over the world.
            Lots of fun on that page…

      • Thank you Iron for the link but the other half of ‘right thing or right person’ is still missing. What I read last night may have been an incorrect quote but I’ll be darned where I read it. I checked my browser history too.

    • Uken,
      This is the one I had floating around, not sure if is the one you’re looking for…
      “The person that finds it, is going to be a person who thinks and plans and has an analytical mind and uses logic, not someone who has a hunch.” 

      • Seeker et al,
        I recall both ‘the right thing’ and ‘the right person’ in the same sentence. BUT I read this online and it may not be accurate. But where? But Not important most. I will pursue for another day. Not a do or die…die now that is a game of chance, heard of Paschal’s wager?

  109. Gang,

    With all the discussion lately about “the little girl from India” I have begun to wonder if the poem is not written as “folded literature” – a phrase coined a long time ago by someone a lot smarter than me. The phrase refers to some literature that “goes over a point” more than once. It is written the way it is because the written word only allows for one observation at a time to be noted, but our senses can be alert to more than one thing going on at a time, ie: walk and chew gum. 🙂 Some easily observed examples of this are found in the Bible, where a verse or phrase is reiterated immediately following the initial mentioning to emphasize the point.

    I’m asking, because I think it may be so, but could Mr. Fenn have intentionally written the poem so that some of the “clues” are in there twice for clarification’s sake, so that we’re sure to not miss them when we find them? For obvious reasons, I don’t want to share which clue or clues this may apply to, but I just wanted to throw this out there to see what others think (or already thought) about this. As always, this is just my opinion and speculations.

  110. Interpreting the answer word within poem sentences:

    A common interpretation of the poem structure is nine sentences equals the nine clues. If we assume this is the case, then the individual poem lines are probably reaffirming hints within the sentence that allude to the answer.

    The hints then likely elaborate on the homograph nature of the answer word(s).

    As an example:

    Begin it where warm waters halt (place name)
    And take it in the canyon down, (action)
    Not far, but too far to walk. (state of being)

    One answer should describe all three lines.

    Example answer: Southern Comfort Ski Run

    Begin it where warm waters halt (alcohol intoxicant + warm hospitality + water freezing to ice)
    And take it in the canyon down, (view + consume + ski )
    Not far, but too far to walk. (drunken stumbling + ski)

    In this example, the three lines describe Southern Comfort Ski Run in different ways.

    There are many other examples like this and although they may not be ultimately correct, nonetheless
    these may help to gain novel interpretations of the hint lines and possibly the poem sentence answer.

    As Fenn has stated clearly that we should figure out the answer to WWWH first and many believe he meant the entirety of the sentence. I thought it would be helpful to list the various answer words or words that describe these three lines. The answer word could be a place, a thing, a condition or anything else that can be fairly defined by the three lines.

    I have a few of these to share and I hope others do as well…

    If your answer words give away your current solve, it’s understandable that you wouldn’t want to share. But if you have others that didn’t pan out or seem less likely, those would still be neat to see for their interpretative structure.

    Thanks!

  111. Chris;

    An interesting theory.

    You state:

    “Begin it where warm waters halt (place name)
    And take it in the canyon down, (action)
    Not far, but too far to walk. (state of being)

    One answer should describe all three lines.

    “One answer should describe all three lines” WHY?

    What was the question?

    If I give a name to line one “Ojo Caliente”
    and go downstream in a canyon (action)
    and go a certain distance (About 10 miles)

    What is the question that I supposedly answered, or should answer?

    If I do what I am told to do, I am now three little steps closer to the Treasure.
    I have accomplished what ff has asked me to do.

    I figured out a starting place, I drove, walked, swam or paddled downstream about 10 miles. I am now looking for a place to put in, that is “below” hoB.

    What question should I have asked myself? What Answer was there to find?

    I may be dense, but I just do not grasp this “Question”/”Answer” theory.

    Help me to understand.

    JD

    • Hi JD….

      I believe that the ultimately the poem must divulge exact places or clue names. The poem clues solely as navigation are simply too vague to lead to a tiny area with confidence….

      Although I do think that the sum of the clues is a general descriptor of walking directions. .. the way to be confident is to find the one answer to each sentence.

      How do I know that the “clues” are sentences? Well I don’t for sure.. but if commas ended the clues then “Not Far,” would be it’s own separate clue.

      If poem lines make up the 9 clues consecutively… then “If you’ve been wise and found the blaze” is the final clue, which ends abruptly at the top of the 4th stanza. Then “Look quickly down…” and “But Tarry Scant…” would not be clues.

      I believe that each stanza nets an answer. The reason that Fenn said to start at WWWH is because it’s unlikely that the first stanza would be solved without knowing WWWH and other stanza answers. The first stanza is a sum of the poem and likely only understood once it’s been solved.

      Thanks,
      -C

        • I agree with that. But if you play the homonym game it can also mean Spur. A spur is a mountain spur point/outcrop. It can also mean a fence spur and/or relating to a horse.
          -C

  112. Architecture of the poem , Hmm
    F: “I felt like an architect drawing that poem.”
    An architect takes a vision from their own mind or anothers & creates drawings to convey the vision to others.
    There are floor plans, elevations & yard or property layouts & more.
    Some structural, functional & some more to please the eye.

    Do you use all the words in the poem to convey your message where the treasure is hidden?
    I think not.
    F: “There are a few words in the poem that are not useful in finding the treasure Phil,”

    Let’s take the nine clues as 9 rooms in a house where the bathroom holds the treasure & the 9 rooms have thousands of doors that all lead to the outside yard except 1 door that leads to another room.
    So the clues that lead you to the treasure is the house & the yard with the beautiful trees, grass, pond, stream & wildlife are not to be discounted but yet has another purpose as a lot of us have figured out are the other words in the poem not helpful in leading to the chest.

    Wish I could explain better, but I think you get my point of view.

        • Zip that fly, Jake. (kidding…)

          But seriously, I get your argument, and I share a deal of it. Not everything in the poem is intended to be useful in finding the TC [e.g., “Tarry scant…” – don’t get me started on that again] but it is left to us to decide which is what. In FF’s own words, “you guess…”.

          • Thanks LabRat,
            Some would notice it, but most would not say anything thinking it’s an embarrassment for both involved.

            Yes, seriously, why would you use all the words in the poem as the nine clues if you know that one of the clues is “blaze”.
            Just one word.
            Now you got to force fit the other 100+ words for the other 8.

  113. Also, IMO, there is a clear line [often physically there but not mentioned in the poem itself] between the proceeding clue and the next one. For example, a stream or river bank may provide you comfort as it guide you to the next clue.

    In your house example, imagine a piece of dental floss tied to the appropriate doors.

    • Very nice Pandora: “For example, a stream or river bank may provide you comfort as it guide you to the next clue.”

      That’s exactly what I have been thinking all along.
      The first clue is by or in a river or stream & all the clues that follow, are either in the water or right next to it.

      I guess you could call it water architecture & I would be very comfortable with that.
      I’m waiting for someone to ask if it halts water.

      • I firmly believe there is a key word providing you direction; for example, turn right at the rusty Studebaker, turn left at the hobo camp, turn right at the landfill, etc.

        • I agree Pandora,
          Although I like to think it’s directional as well as locational.
          Not sure if the rusty Studebaker is still there but it was at some point.
          The hobo camp is near where he was going to implement plan A.
          Something about going out with a bang without a buck.
          10,000 years down the road, that 50$ will be worth less than what doesn’t exist anymore.

  114. my best theory is based on the architecture of the poem that is printed in TTOTC. If there is anyone else that has theories in this direction, i’d like to ask you this: What do you make of the TFTW map that is aligned left? Do you think that means that architecture theories based from the original printing are coincidental?

    • Leigh,

      When I first read the poem, on Forrest’s website, I immediately thought that there was something to the physical composition of the poem, outside of the meaning of the poem, with a left justified composition and the right edge creating a particular shape that may be important. However, the poem in TToTC is very different, and center justified. And the poem in tftw is highly stylized, of a very different font, and justified left. However, there is also a version of the poem in tftw that is center justified, which was not finally selected for publication. Here is one of the links:

      https://www.benchmarkmaps.com/thrill-of-the-chase-wall-map

      I think it matters not how it is printed. I do believe that it’s critical not to change the punctuation, words, and what words are on each line as he has given, but the font, style, shape, etc., are not essential in my view. It’s a poem.

      I do not believe that the alignment is relevant to the very interesting and telling references Forrest has made regarding the architecture of the poem, and that it was written by an architect. I may have written more on this subject than any other, as I found Forrest’s architecture comments to be most enlightening.

      I believe that when Forrest is talking about the architecture of the poem, or that it is written by an architect, he’s referring to the poem as having meaning, likely entwined with instructions, and that it is also an analog of something else, as an architectural plan is both an analog of a soon-to-be-realized larger, three-dimensional version of the plan (which also has a key to understand the symbols and nomenclature), a meaningful representation of something real in the context of a landscape. The poem is precise, like an architectural plan, and carefully crafted to be an extremely accurate representation, or clue(s), of a place or places in nature.

      This is very brief here, but I do not believe that the font, shape, or how the poem lines are justified is related to the idea of architecture of the poem…

      Like an architectural plan, which is designed and revised over considerable time with precision, and given great thought, I believe Forrest is inferring that the poem is a concise representation in one medium (poem) that, if properly understood, can be used to create or imagine a larger, specific and very real landscape, in which the treasure chest is the most important place. I believe that his more recent comment about reading the poem with the idea of putting an X on the map or in the landscape supports this as well…

      Halogetter

      • Halo,

        Wow. Thank you so much for your response, I truly appreciate it.

        I started the architecture theory after my first year and a half into this mystery after a specific scrapbook and an excursion in New Mexico. It took another 2 and a half years to complete it… I’m at the point of no return, and have to check my final theory…even though you are probably correct. I have done so much research after the creation from the originally printed poem, I’ll never be able to shake it without trekking west one last time.

        But with all delusion, I’ve just been debating why the left alignment on f site and tftw map. Doesn’t make sense.

        I did not know the info you shared about the center aligned poem that was not in the final publication of tftw and now that makes me wonder why… Curious. Why print and not use? Why not state tftw as good research material if it has the map? And more stories?

        I don’t know… I’m looking forward to producing my theory eventually. And halo, I truly appreciate your thoughtful, thought provoking response.

        Sincerely, Leigh.

  115. A fleeting thought I had that I hope some of you kind people night have an opinion on:

    What if this poem was written as a scavenger hunt of sorts? I’m of the opinion that all the clues are related. I.e. solving the first clue will lead you the second clue. From the second clue you get to the third clue, and so on.

    What I’m getting at is this. Maybe, just IMO, Fenn is leading us on this quest to show us 9 important locations to him, the final one being where he wanted his bones to rest with the chest. I will give you an example. WWWH in my solve is ojo caliente spring. Why? It was Fenns natural bathing spot. He adores the firehole river. He would surely want us to see such a magnificent place with our own eyes…?

    What if the next clue is another spot he holds dear? Then another, and so on until one would arrive st the last spot. Fenns spot. Somewhere in the rockies where he would want his bones to rest forever…

    Just a though.

    • JCS;

      A very interesting hypothesis, but one I can not agree with you on. I very much agree with your last sentence though. You say, ” Fenns spot. Somewhere in the Rockies where he would want his bones to rest forever… ”

      The most telling chapter (to me) in TTOTC is “My War for Me.”. In this chapter Forrest makes the following statement about the waterfall that he had seen: ““If I get back from this mission, I’m going down there.”…I felt I’d made a deal with that beautiful place. “You bring me back and I’ll come down there and personally thank you.” The deal was struck I trusted it, and it could trust me. It was our secret alone.”

      Forrest also said, ““And when my tackle box is closed at last and the cadis hatch is gone, I will rest through all of time and space, pillowed down and scented in, with a smile that comes with remembering the special things that brought me to that (this) final place…”f (sic)

      These two quotes told me that the place that Forrest wanted to go to with his last dying breath was a waterfall, near a pine scented grove, similar to the one that he had made the pact with in Viet Nam.

      I believe that I have found that waterfall. In less than a week I will know.

      Good luck to ALL searchers, and TRY to STAY SAFE

      JD

      • JD – I agree with your great posts above on “My War for Me” and ff’s “special place. 🙂

        But now I would like to discuss the Poem Architecture with you and everyone else:

        Everyone – From the Denver 5280 article about Randy:

        “(He says he looked up each noun in the dictionary to make sure there wouldn’t be confusion about the words’ meanings.)”

        That was “each noun” and nothing else mentioned. Has anyone else besides me looked at the VERBS ONLY in The Poem,…or any other grammar-related subset of word classes,…to see if there is a hidden “blaze” there? I know Yoda looked at the Diphthongs….

        Word Classes:

        Noun.
        Verb.
        Adjective.
        Adverb.
        Pronoun.
        Preposition.
        Conjunction.

        • Yup, constructional grammar. Homonyms, verbs, adjectives are very PRONOUNced.
          Not only the words, but the letters also. “B”, “R”, “C”, “U”, I call them homonym letters. Add instruction words and letters and you have the architecture of the poem. IMO. Looking at it this way and you realize he didn’t go alone in there, the word “have” gives ownership or possession. If he wanted to portray going alone somewhere, he would use I’ve. I’ve gone alone in there. But he didn’t, he used I have, so that line has more to do with possession of something and not him actually doing something or going somewhere. IMO.

          So, what does he have? He has a “g” on an “e”, and an “al” on an “e”. Whatever he has, it has two e’s.

          “in”, now he’s going to tell us what it is he has. And it should have two e’s.

          There. Attach a “g” on the first “e”, and an “al” on the second “e”.

          As I have thgerale, thegrale, thegreal. The second one makes the most sence. Grail spelled wrong. As I have the grale. This gives ownership or possession of something. If you use the “r” in grale to mean “are” you then have “As I have the ale”. Again, ownership. Homonyms. Instructions. Words. Letters. Nothing to do with him going anywhere alone. IMO.

          • charlie –

            What you just posted is one of the best things I have ever seen posted. My spot has what I thought was an “FE” but now I think it might be an EE. Plus why couldn’t it be a double meaning to include the probability that he went in there alone?

          • charlie – that was %$#*&$#@ GREAT!!!! I just KNEW there was a grammarian hiding out there somewhere!!!

            I expanded all the contractions (ie. “it’s” = “it is” and there’ll = “there will”) to list all the VERBS in order and made a nice story out of that,…even inserting the personality of a Rising Rainbow Trout,…going up the “no paddle up your creek” to spawn,…for the “I” in The Poem.

            And I LOVED your Sangreal solution: Key Word = QUEST!!!! 🙂 🙂 🙂

            (Where is The Wolf when I need him???)

            And you wrote:

            “Nothing to do with him going anywhere alone.”

            As for MY “in there”,…I STILL think he went in there “alone”,…to go fly fishing (or MAYBE to be “alone” with Peggy in their teens if she visited in the Summer? Get it? “treasures bold”?). He wrote in that “Looking for Lewis and Clark” story that he and Donnie didn’t catch any fish (and had to eat a porcupine and something else!). Forrest is not someone to give up,…on anything. I think my IMO “in there”,…became one of his FAVORITE flyfishing spots,…for Rainbow trout. Hence it just MAY be:

            “…the end of my rainbow and the treasure.”

            ALL IMO!!! 🙂

            p.s. I found a site that called “treasures bold”,…”found objects”.

          • charlie and inthechaseto – My cartouche “blaze”,…on the “side of the hill” (aka ff’s “face” from spallies),…has an ff next to an E:

            *
            BIRD

            F

            F

            E

            And “treasure” (= Peggy???) has two e’s also. Now I am thinking of that whole Sangreal theme from the Da Vinci code…

            Or,…inthechaseto,…maybe E* will be the second E,…next to the FF!!! If I EVER go get that Bronze Chest,…at my IMO Hidey Spot,…that is! I still think the one on the “face” blaze signifies for-“Ever” as in Everard Jean Hinrichs. And that Eric is in the clouds,…forever,…looking down on that “face” and laughing. 🙂

            p.s. This entire discusssion is due to inthechaseto posting that 5280 Denver story about Randy. Thank you again,…inthechaseto! 🙂

          • Jd – And thank YOU for posting this again:

            ““And when my tackle box is closed at last and the cadis hatch is gone, I will rest through all of time and space, pillowed down and scented in, with a smile that comes with remembering the special things that brought me to that (this) final place…”f (sic)

            I think those “special things” were Peggy and fly fishing. IMO. For my spot.

            From West Yellowstone News, “Memories of the Past Enrich Our Present” by Forrest Fenn:

            “This book will now occupy a different shelf, closer to my view, for it holds some memories most dear and makes me know that moments such as those are fleet-of-foot indeed, and calls to make them all the more. It is well said, that “God subtracts from the allotted time of man, those hours spent fishing.”

            And when my tackle box is closed at last, and the Caddis hatch is gone, I will rest through all of time and space, pillowed down and scented in, and with a smile that comes from remembering the special things that brought me to that final place, many of which were knowing you were there, somewhere, waiting for me.”

            Who is “you”??? God? Peggy???

          • charlie and inthechaseto – And from the Alan Seeger poem (where ff may have gotten the idea for his line,…and may reveal one of those “special things” ie. Peggy):

            “God knows ’twere better to be deep
            Pillowed in silk and scented down,
            Where love throbs out in blissful sleep,
            Pulse nigh to pulse, and breath to breath,
            Where hushed awakenings are dear…
            But I’ve a rendezvous with Death
            At midnight in some flaming town,
            When Spring trips north again this year,
            And I to my pledged word am true,
            I shall not fail that rendezvous.”

          • charlie – You wrote:

            Yup, constructional grammar. Homonyms, verbs, adjectives are very PRONOUNced.
            Not only the words, but the letters also. “B”, “R”, “C”, “U”, I call them homonym letters.

            How about Be-Row-N’,…at that “home of Brown? And then,…RU saying AaaaRRRgghhh yet?! I’ll use that solution you offered for my pirate solve.

            I like to consider anything that has an extra ‘E’ on the end. Like Eric Sloane or Sir T. Browne:

            From the title page of “Journal of a Trapper”:

            “I envy no man that knows more than myself
            and pity them that know less: Sir T. Brown.”

            How could ANYONE forget the ‘E’?!:

            “I make not, therefore, my head a grave, but a treasure, of knowledge; I intend no monopoly, but a community, in learning; I study not for my own sake only, but for theirs that study not for themselves. I envy no man that knows more than myself, but pity them that know less. I instruct no man as an exercise of my knowledge, or with an intent rather to nourish and keep it alive in mine own head than beget and propagate it in his; and in the midst of all my endeavours there is but one thought that dejects me,—that my acquired parts must perish with myself, nor can be legacied among my honoured friends.
            – Sir Thomas Browne.

            I agree, Sir Thomas Browne. 🙂

          • charlie – And if you Google ‘acrostic’ and go to the Wikipedia site,…you can see a cool manuscript by William Browne:

            “The poem Behold, O God!, by William Browne,[14] can be considered a complex kind of acrostic. In the manuscript, some letters are capitalized and written extra-large, non-italic, and in red, and the lines are shifted left or right and internally spaced out as necessary to position the red letters within three crosses that extend through all the lines of the poem. The letters within each cross spell out a verse from the New Testament.”

            Is there something like THAT in the architecture of The Poem????

    • JCS – And I agree with your hypothesis also above JD’s post:

      “What I’m getting at is this. Maybe, just IMO, Fenn is leading us on this quest to show us 9 important locations to him, the final one being where he wanted his bones to rest with the chest. ”

      And I believe that there is a “blaze” associated with each one. The first one being the ‘Y’ in ‘Wy’ in ‘YNP’ (“So why is it that I must go…” IMO) at Madison Junction on the map. In that example,…FF used that area of the Madison in the preface of TFTW. We know he liked to fish there.

      Thank you for helping me to clarify that in my mind! 🙂

      • JCS – Well actually,…the FIRST “blaze” in The Poem IMO is related to the first clue (IMO) found in the first line:

        “As I have gone alone in there”

        Where I visualized ff flying in his Piper plane,…circling to land at the West Yellowstone airport,…and smiling at his “face” in the landscape (the one that looks like the Olmec Mask, which I use to locate my search area on the topo). I believe he could see that vertical cartouche “blaze” I mentioned from the air,…so it could also be a homophone:

        I have gone alone in th’air,…

        🙂

        • JCS – And I believe ff stopped at EACH of the “scavenger hunt”-type “blazes” (or ff’s “special places”),…the day he hid the bronze chest. Like fly fishing downstream from Madison Junction in the AM (not too early,…because he is a Night Owl),…then to where Bob Jacklin caught his Monster 10lb Brown trout at the Day Use Area below Hebgen Dam (Wise Owl blaze across the Madison),…then he may have “put in” below at Boat Mountain (you can’t miss it on the topo) by making a right at FS 985 out no-paddle-up-your Beaver Creek (IMO) to the Potamogeton Park to park his “sedan” at the trail head for the #205 trail (headed to the place he sat on Lightning on the #205 Red-Black-Green (IMO) trail),…to gaze at his cartouche-like “blaze” handiwork on the side of that “face” hill (aka a “down”,…so he was doing the “look quickly down” there). He said on the Me No Contest thread that he likes to walk up a hill and look DOWN,…now didn’t he??? 😉

          I could go on,…but I think by now you get the “big picture”! 🙂

          Thank you Soooo much for your great idea, JCS!!!

        • JCS – Granted,…the first clue and “blaze” could be Ojo Caliente,…if ff drove that “sedan” long distance at night,…and didn’t get a flight in to West yellowstone and rent it there. He may have needed a warm bath:

          “As I have gone alone in there,…”

          But I am pretty sure he went fishing after that. 🙂

          • inthechaseto – When I am sad,…like when I am lamenting the absence of a really FUN fellow Chaser,…whom I LOVED to post with over there (but who apparently DOESN’T love me),…I drown my sorrows by being ridiculously prolific on the blog. I will not mention that Chaser’s name,…because it bothers a certain Yellow Dog here on Dal’s blog.

            p.s. Thank you for posting that 5280 Denver story. 🙂

          • Good grief woman – you are all over the place and my head hurts from trying to read what you wrote. Your probably the reason we can’t get on here easily. JK

            Love makes the world go round – but please, don’t take it out on us. Let someone else have a word occasionally.

          • inthechaseto – There are a WHOLE lot of hours in the day,…and days in the week,…for you and everyone else to read my posts. I will continue to post my thoughts as they come into my head,…because I am SIRIUS,…about being the brightest E(star) on Dal’s blog that I can be! I’ve held back for a really, really long time. 😉

            p.s. I’d post a link here to a picture of that Sirius star I posted previously,…but I am trying to help the Yellow Dog with keeping the server running at its optimal speed during this challenging time.

            See also: the Yellow Dog’s posted reasons for why the server is running slowly. It is not my frequent posts,…or Seeker’s really LONG ones,…that are hindering any of us. It is the blog buzz of the press about Randy’s story.

          • E –

            I actually thought you were trying to run the board. I’ve only seen that done one other time but that’s when there were only eight positions to do that – now there are 12.

            I personally don’t care how bright anyone is – anywhere. I’m just fine being me. Hope you can get there someday. 🙂

          • inthechaseto – It’s nice to FINALLY be me also,…here at Dal’s,…where I am not in the LEAST bit worried about Chasers who do not like it when I shine like the shiney E-star I have always been,…all my life.

            Green is not a pretty color on you….

            And I did read your comments previously,…elsewhere,…and I responded to you here,…with something only YOU would understand:

            “Et tu, inthechaseto?”

            Running the bolg??? REALLY? With Dal and the Yellow Dog here? Hardly. 🙂

            And now I’ll get back to solving The Poem and finding the Bronze Chest…which is why we are ALL here,…right? 🙂

          • E*, look at the face at potamogeton park. I found that awhile back, but face didn’t fit my solve, but pot did. Since you like the face solve there is one there as well.

          • DPT – I can see how the ponds,…in what looks to me like a forest fen (hee hee),…at Potomogeton Park,…could form a smiley face,…but zoom out a bit in satellite view,…and the grassy area looks like a profile of an elephant with a raised trunk!

            And I don’t even have a stone floor in my shower…..

            Thank you. 🙂

            p.s. You know ff used that trail head to go fishing for Golden Trout at Avalanche lake, right? And he probably was there when he went on his quest for Lewis and Clark with Donnie at age 16.

        • E* not sure if this was mentioned… I haven’t had time to read all the posts today 🙂 I am sure you already know this but the “side of a mountain” can also be called the “face” of a mountain?

          • spallies – Wow! Awesome! And THAT definition of “face” is now part of my main and final solve,…which I won’t ever need to publish,…because I gave it all away here. 😉

            p.s. I have missed you. 🙂

            p.p.s. I guess you met Dal. I sorta tried to get him to go with me on The Chase to my spot,…but I think he thinks I can run faster than him. 😉

          • spallies – Do you happen to be best buddies with Bart the Bear 2,…by any chance???? We could always call Brad Pitt….

            😉

          • Jake – Yes,…if I remember correctly,…spallies and 42 and anna were ALL looking in the Gallatin River area. Let’s see,…who had Brutus the Montana Grizz as their search buddy? Who WAS that, spallies????

          • spallies – Oh yeah! It was Lia! She posted on the Key Word thread,…but I didn’t catch it until a day or two later,…then I replied,…and then I haven’t seen her here again. Is she out on The Chase?

            She was looking in the Gallatin River area, too, Jake.

          • The Gallatin is the key to the whole poem & treasure.
            I’m pretty sure he loved this river to fish & is probably more special than other rivers considering the low traffic affect.

          • Jake – I still think the very first secret blaze,…is the Three Forks,…the map of which features faintly on the right side of the page where Peggy is wearing her old-fashioned swimsuit. I think ff flew over that potential “blaze” often in his Piper plane:

            As I have gone alone in th’air
            (Homophone)

            That is where the Madison, Jefferson and Gallatin Rivers come together. And the source of the Jefferson is Brower’s Spring,…which feeds down to the Gallatin via Hell Roaring Creek, right? Hey,…guess what’s right there? The place where Redford filmed that last scene of “A River Runs Through It”!

            That was my “no paddle up your creek” and “Just heavy loads and water high” in my Gallatin River solve (which I didn’t do until just before I started posting here again). That’s where the Montana Rafting Co. is located. 🙂

          • Jake – Blaze Mountain and Mirror Lake are up there, too. That was a nice picture you posted of a peak near the Gallatin a while ago,…asking people to guess where you were. 🙂

            Brower’s Spring:

            Though the copper plate has not been located, the site of Brower’s Spring is believed to be at about 8,800 feet (2,682 m) [1] on the north fork of where Hell Roaring Creek divides near its source. It is commemorated by a rock pile. Hell Roaring Creek flows west into the Red Rock River, which flows through Upper, then Lower Red Rock Lakes, west through Lima Reservoir, and then northwest into Clark Canyon Reservoir. From Clark Canyon Reservoir the Beaverhead River flows northeast to join the Big Hole River, forming the Jefferson River, which with the Madison and Gallatin Rivers form the Missouri at Missouri River Headwaters State Park at Three Forks, Montana

          • E*,
            I have considered Blaze mtn & Mirror lake area months back & had to throw it out because of the difficulty for anyone to get there.
            I also considered the Three Forks area & ruled that out as well for many reasons.

          • Jake – I mentioned Three Forks, Blaze Mountain and Mirror lake as potential “blazes”,…seen from ff’s Piper plane,…not as potential hidey spots for the bronze chest.

        • I’m gonna have to parse all of this when I get a free minute after work to see if I can pick up what it is you’re putting down.

          Good info though. Keep it coming!!

          • JCS – This is JUST for you (the book he is referring to is “Flywater”):

            From West Yellowstone News, “Memories of the Past Enrich Our Present” by Forrest Fenn:

            “Several of the wonderful color plates are of places where I fished in Montana as a kid under the tutelage of my father, or where I guided others for pay when I was but twelve and thirteen.

            Those great places on the Firehole, which were personal secrets to me then, are now busy with the flourish of fishermen and women who cast a midge or floating cadis upon the same waters, never knowing I had been there, or even caring yes or no. I always thought that space was mine alone, and many of the memories there bred are even now still so personal that they exclude the intrusion of strangers. How dare they do that?”

            Maybe THAT is where ff went fly fishing,…after he took a warm bath i at Ojo Caliente,…the morning he hid the bronze chest (ALL IMO!). 🙂

  116. Here’s the architecture of all the comments lately. In my very dry humbleopinyon.

    http://www.adhesives.org/adhesives-sealants/science-of-adhesion/wetting

    It explains why it would be difficult…but not impossible…to go alone as well. Aka no cohesion 😉

    Then again I’ve been a little obsessed with black oil, texas tea, and other petrols lately as well so it’s probably just making me crazy and causing me to ramble nonsensically. Madder than a wet hen, I am.

    • jonsey1 – Welcome to the discussion! I think you and Mindy have been stuck in a truck in the snow in my (and everyone ELSE’s it seems) search area. I have really enjoyed following your posts in the past,…albeit from another blog. That was the secret hideout of the A-team,…where we read comments here at dal’s,…and then discussed them over there,…and where we posted WAY too many