From The Mind of an Abstract Thinker

………..by Seeker

Some searchers overrate the complexity of the search. Knowing about head pressures, foot pounds, acre feet, bible verses, Latin, cubic inches, icons, fonts, charts, graphs, formulas, curved lines, magnetic variation, codes, depth meters, riddles, drones or ciphers, will not assist anyone to the treasure location, although those things have been offered as positive solutions. Excellent research materials are TTOTC, Google Earth, and/or a good map.f”

So many searchers enjoy the straightforwards single meanings and boots on the ground method to find a solution to the interpretation of the poem. This is all fine, but I see the poem as Multiple Meanings, Multiple layers, Multiple hints with a straight forwards theme. [ note: I did leave out one important factor].

I believe there is another reading that is necessary to understand and that is the journey of ” I ” as in knowledge of self. “i ” represents us or human kind as in the W-hen W-here W-hy and H-ows of archaeology. When twisting the meaning of the word “i” We can read the poem as such. Please follow with the poem in mind…

As Humans [i] have gone alone [first] in there [ in time][ the new World ] and with my treasures [ possessions ] bold [i] can keep my [ their ] secrets [ if one is dead ] where [ in time, and found with them] and hint of riches [ knowledge obtained by the finds ] new and old. [ present and past ].

Most all the words having Multiple Meanings, such as New and old meaning old World to the new World or the travel from the eastern to western hemisphere during the Ice Age. As in… Begin it Where Warm Waters halt, [ Glacial period, a time period]. And take it in the canyon down [as in the Ice Free Corridor], Not far but too far to walk [as in a 10,000 year span]. Put in below hoB [or the Browns Valley man; will explain in a moment ]. No place for the meek [describes the “back bone” of the Rocky Mountains or the continental divide, Which was the Ice free Corridor]. The end is ever drawing nigh, [refers to the end of the Ice Age or more importantly the young dryas]. [older dryas – young dryas and the difficult time period] There’ll be no paddle up you creek [as the Glacier are call “Ice Rivers”], Just heavy loads and water high [meaning the sediment and boulders the Glaciers carried and moved great distances, depositing them when the Glaciers re-treated.]

This brings me to the Browns Valley Man or to be exact, the location of his [9000 year old] remains in Minnesota. The location is at the 45th parallel which coincides with the area of the Glacial re-treat.

At this point we have what I consider a theme to the poem. Mans journey from the old World and the birth of human habitation [ hoB ]in that land [the new World]. At an area of the 45th parallel on or near the CD where the Ice free Corridor opened to the now state of Montana, USA, And the knowledge [ missing D ] of the When Where Why and How of us or ‘I ‘ or Archaeology the study of the land surface and it’s inhabitants.

The Blaze is not just the path taken, but the remains of the ice age itself and the younger dryas. This coincides with the end of the Clovis period and the beginning of the Folsom period. The Blaze is a marker that is told to the reader as a hint as a boulder, But not just any boulder but a different type of “marker” as in a monument / head stone…

Quick summery: birth, life to death, the journey of ‘ I ‘ and a marker as such, or ” the end is ever drawing nigh”- everything comes to an end. Now we are at an area to be below the 45th parallel [ subtle hint is ; semi, meaning ½ or ½ the distance from North pole to Equator in the western hemisphere ] and on the CD. Which takes a “world searcher” on the journey from east to west and north to mid way, in the northern hemisphere.

But where below? The poem has a structure if looked at it as… all the component in the poem must be used or an architect design to be put together… 9 sentences, 6 stanzas, 4 lines per stanza [ equaling the 24 lines ] and 25 Capital letters [ one at the beginning of each line and B in brown] totaling 44 or the 44th parallel.

Now come the rest of the coordinators to place the searcher in a birds eye view “of ” the location of the Blaze. Counting the capital letters in alphabet order….. A in the beginning of each line give you … A’s = 5. B gives you 2. etc. [ all numbers are given numbers of the alphabet, just ask any child what the first letter of the alphabet is? Or the second . Etc.] Ending with {44} 52 ‘ 12” -111 23’ 10″ This area is the Hebgen lake, Earth Quake Lake region and is a match to the geological area to the Browns Valley Mans location, [ a given name of a person, place and things… the Remains – location- and possessions or “treasures” ] with almost the same natural event of both places creations, and the death of the inhabitants.

The blaze is of three… three Boulders or Monuments or headstones of the 19 souls lost in the 1959 landslide created by an Earth quake in 1959. But just like the theme and the blaze, both locations have their similarities.

To find the chest, the Coordinates are use to run parallel line with the Boundary line of Madison County and Gallatin County.[ even if in the future the boundary lines change, the coordinate line remains].

Now the poem is a step by step set of instructions to be follow like a map. But the structure of the poem is still in use… the number counts of each word in each line is use to give elevation points [ example stanza 5 is 8858] along the boundary line.

Starting with “If you’ve been wise and found the blaze Look quickly look down… from the blaze ” Monument boulder.”

Now the poem becomes a step by step set of instructions to be followed using the Multiple Meanings of words and phrases, differ from the meaning of the poem’s theme…which was designed to get the searcher to an area and now designed to put that searcher in a spot. The rest of the calculations I’ll keep to myself, for now.

This theory starts World wide for anyone with the knowledge of the Glacial period and the travel of human habitation, that was taught in every school room. Bringing the Seeker from [ anywhere ] the Eastern hemisphere to the Western hemisphere, below 45th parallel, on the CD, in the state of Montana, to a boundary line of two counties and coordinate line, to a spot in the saddle of the Mountain pass [ in the wood ] and three glacial boulders representing the significance of the theme of the poem and the corresponding connection between the Two areas, Browns Valley and Earth quake lake and the geographical / history of where the searcher is.

Problem; [There are many WWWH in the Rocky Mountains and most are north of SF…] Well, logically this theory could still work should one take in consideration, all ice ages including Snow Ball Earth. A comprehensive knowledge of geography. [ but I am having a debate with myself on this matter.]

Problem; [The poem needs to be, read, re-read and read again ] with [a slight ] different interpretations in mind… Well, the understanding of the final reading may include all the others… So is the understanding of the poem straightforwards? And follow the clues in consecutive order.

Problem; an approx. 2 mile hike is just a guess… The actual distance is uncertain to myself. But [two trips from the car to the hide] could calculate as… car to hide #1… back to car #2 …back to hide # 3… this give 6 miles total “to” the hide. With the last trip back to the car not counted as fenn’s statement states “to the hide” and “done in one afternoon.” [ does this mean done “at” the hide? Or “at the car?”

Problem; why not just give Coordinates of the chest location?… Well, my thought is that, it would be too easy and the challenge IMO is to understand why a poem and not just 9 step by step directional clues placed in the stories of the book.

Problem; two trips in one afternoon with a total of 42 pound [ approx. 21lbs. Each trip ] by a 79 year old man… Well, This one is easy… I do not underestimate Fenn’s abilities, planning nor knowledge of the area. I dismiss this as a problem.

Those are just 4 problems I have considered [ there are a couple more ]. This idea, theory, method of reading the poem can / will only work if Multiple Meanings / layers is what the Author had in mind at the time of writing the poem.

As you may have notice these 9 clues are not so much based on where a body of Water{s} is or a Canyon’s name, or a special creek , or a brown trout etc. But the Answers of what they may represent and the different meanings for words and phrases. [such as creek meaning; narrow passage or in this case corridor].

As in the past, I will ask anyone to dissect or ask questions of the interpretation. Please, Don’t old back, as I seriously would like a good debate. And for those whom dislike my dissecting their theories… Now’s your chance for some fun with me.

As Always, Just food for thought. ……………………………. Seeker.

453 thoughts on “From The Mind of an Abstract Thinker

  1. @seeker I like it, especially using the poem in layers if that is a correct understanding. One read for the big picture and one to narrow in. Lots of good info being shared lately. I totally missed the 100 dollar bill wrong president and never gave much thought to the missing ball of string either. Spending more time just keeping up with comments these days, thanks to all the positive searchers.

    • Specialklr,

      To answers your question, the simple answer is. I may never be able to, I won’t bore you with the details.

  2. I believe the most sane can be driven mad by few words and total silence. I believe simplicity is difficult for man to accept. I also think Mr ff knew this too well. I do think that these are 9 directional clues that are like a singular key with 5000 locks plus to attempt. I also feel that each clue in its perfect order does point to a precise place. A treasure hunt is a directional hunt typically upon a map. Its clues just as directions tell us one plot or step at a time in sensible order because those who want to hide treasure desire their treasure found…even if by themselves at a later date much older and less mentally adept. Any theories or themes suggested are not meant to distract or send one on a mental journey of self reflection. The physical journey itself will do that to anyone. I don’t know where the treasure is but I will say that if kept simple and directional along with his stories and comments we know a ton. If he were to die he would likely die laying in pine straw with a tackle box that says a ton. Countless stories of bike rides or a doable hike of 3 miles in his story of concy. The use of things you have commented to others regarding stories almost perfectly repeated by him in interviews. And knowing it was simple I didn’t need anyone to tell me it was in a safe area. BC my largest disagreement is his capacity. Even if I were as familiar with rocky territory as he I would not risk my legacy in two trips with a chance of injury, dangerous encounter, or being seen. Its your flipping legacy to the world anyone of these occurrences would make you feel foolish. And if it were behind a waterfall their is no certainty you wouldn’t be seen or washed away in the first trip. If its next to or in a bear cave no certainty you wouldn’t be mauled (or the bears would be present in even the next 10 years). If its in season on federal land its not going to likely be anywhere within 500 to 1000 ft of any common fishing area swimming hole or ranger post BC someone would have wanted to help that poor man carrying that box. There is just a ton of common sense in all of this. I am very certain these are directional clues. These plots carry the meaning to him not his words. He just had to be careful with his words. One of the basic failures of a novice writer is over detailing a story because of our love for the subject. When you dumb it down you allow the reader’s mind to roam and experience the story for themselves. We are missing this in the details and the sad part is it was created so that we make our own details. Anyhow, those are my thoughts.

    • Natalie, your reply was unfocused and impossible to understand. Why did you write it? It was 501 words and 29 lines of rambling, almost incoherent opinions that do not address anything in Seeker’s well-constructed, deliberative essay. If you want to post your own analysis, then do so, but please do not interject pointless distractions that serve no other purpose than to expound verbosely upon Forrest’s motivations and sway us with your own blurry reasoning.

      • I’m sorry it is blurry to you or others. I’ll dumb it down. Be careful of over thinking it can lead you on a journey with no true answers. Sometimes the most difficult solves are derived from simple clues and human nature’s ability to over complicate it. I am guilty as well. In the mean time you are a very ugly character and perhaps you would have more reward in humanity than a pot of gold.

      • Larsonist I suggest you spend more time supplying original ideas and less time editorializing others’ contributions. If you don’t want to read what someone else has written that is fine but the overly critical comments are just not helpful.

      • I’m not a fan of the negativity or the accusation of ranting. This is a community (that I rarely comment in – but love deeply) who are focused on a free exchange of ideas.

        Natalie didn’t write it for you. It was to start a discussion. It isn’t unfocused and isn’t impossible to understand.

        I think Natalie has a valid point in that we can get lost in the weeds too often and we lose sight of the trees. It is a valid comment and is welcome here.

        If you have a personal issue with something that someone posted? Take it up with them. Don’t freak out or flame them. Your comment and reply was not only rage filled but is oozing with disdain.

        That’s a shame.

        You’re living up to your screen name – Larsonist – Someone who steals something only to set it on fire.

        We don’t need more fires. We’ve got a blaze to focus on.

        Natalie? Keep posting (I followed your comment and I’m not sure where word count guy came from)

  3. Good thoughts Natalie. I do like your solve Seeker and think you may have something. I think you are thinking too much though. You should get out there and start looking around the areas you were talking about. A lot of times I think the places look one way, but really they look different when you get there. Good luck to you in your search.

    • I don’t really think too much about the treasure. I reached my hypothesis. From time to time I like to help others who have become lost in the details. I don’t want the treasure. But in all this I have become extremely fascinated with native american trail marker trees which are popular in ga BC of the Cherokees and others. My cousin and I have swore to visit the Appalachians more. Next June we plan on visiting Yellowstone. What is so fascinating to me is the human mind. It is so much fun to see what treasure will do to a person.

      • It will make people think.. and doubt.. and think… and research… and rethink… and doubt….. and rethink.

        I think this is the lasting gift of this hunt. It’s a chase that makes us learn and discover and theorize and prove to ourselves that we “know” where it is… to only have to search again.

        Keep us updated on your quest (or link a blog to your journey through the Appalachias.) There is a lot of lost treasure to be found there as well!

      • Natalie West,
        Don’t under think the Native American marker route. You sound like a good thinker, from GA? I am in TN and look at every rock and bluff while in the woods of the Smokies.

        I like the view about not thinking too much about the treasure. Seems I feel that way more and more. But I appreciate all the learning, here on the blog and everywhere else.

        Seeker,
        you are a much respected writer here and reading your solve was a super treat after a long day…

        Iron Wil,
        also enjoyed your solve as well, you old timers are really going to town… thank you all.

        btw, have an awesome NM solve, prob to chicken to post any ideas ever again… maybe i will go get one day this year. GL all chasers this year, and one out right now.

        Navy,

        • Navigator

          Did you just call me old?

          That hurts… True…but hurts.

          Interesting enough I don’t see negativity as much as straight to the point opinion. That doesn’t bother me as I do the same.

          Although I did expect some would come at this post with both guns blazing… All in all the discusdions have been good.

          But if you don’t like this theory and want to voice that… Please go into details of why…. And not just … I use the KiSS method.

          Thanks

    • Carolyn,
      My point to this post is to bring out new discussions, I’m not here to brag or gloat how perfect my solve is. I truly would like folks to tear apart this theory of reading the poem.

      So when you said; ” I think you are thinking too much though”

      Will you explain why you believe that?

      • An abstract thought process is dangerous. It provides endless answers all justified by endless possibilities; all answers become correct whether the box lies at the end of the rainbow or not. This form of thinking can lead to a resolve that the end outcome is not of importance to the hunt. But in fact it is the source. So start with something small. And when you end up empty handed go smaller. You are looking for something with a precise design and intention why make it more complicated with philosophy. Now if you don’t want the treasure climb every mountain search high and low follow every bi way every path you know. This treasure is findable and if you look at it as simple directions it narrows things down quite nicely with the stories he tells.

        • I do believe that a lot of people are looking in circles. They are trying to make things fit. My fiancé for example thinks that bc his cows name was Bessie, it must be where a woman named Bessie died in a river. Among many ideas that cause me to say, “huh”. I do belive they are directions. I believe he’s describing a very specific place. Start here, go down to here, not too much further if you’ve gone this far don’t go further… don’t put yourself in danger. If you see this you’re in the right place. Take it and go. Very simple the hard task is figuring out where. That’s the part that I think he is saying is hard. This is just my opinion. I don’t think it’s overly complicated. The poem I mean. I think finding his secret place is complicated. Once you figure that out the directions are direct.

          • To be more specific, I think the bigger picture is figuring out where warm waters halt. He’s said if you think about it, they halt all over the Rockies, but you have to look at the bigger picture. We have to figure out the bigger picture. We have to figure out where he believes, in that picture that warm waters halt. From there the directions are direct.

          • I feel that area has some of the best possibility. The area I like for it is not too far from there. I think that if in fact you end up right though you would have discovered one of the greatest coincidences of all time. I don’t believe ff used your same logic but interesting that your idea is one that many have guessed without all the back story. You don’t need all that to find it. But hey it is all the more fascinating for it. I don’t think any of us have to like someone else’s story. It means something to you and that is what is important. It takes guts to have an idea on here.

          • I find your theory fascinating, even if it’s not my own. Well thought out. Extremely unique, and inquisitive.

          • I feel you’re stretching too much. You dismissed my simple theory, which Forrest said the solution would be. However, you are trying to turn this poem into a bungie cord and stretching it to see how far you can pull to make the clues fit. Seriously 6 miles when he said “less than a few”?

            There’s just too many questions and no answers in your post. In my opinion, any searcher out there could post the exact same thing you did. We need progress… different ideas, and varying ways to look at the poem instead of saying “problem” all the time.

            Just my thoughts.

          • I like where you start but then I see you head off in wild tangents and you over complicate things.

            You can’t start with an end point in mind and then make things back fill to your goal – and that’s what I think you are doing.

            You’re over engineering something that a man who flew a plane (that was basically theory and duct tape) wrote.

            This isn’t that hard. Get simple. No codes or cryptograms needed.

            You’re over engineering things – IMHO

            I think Natalie has a point….. see the Forrest for the trees. Not the weeds.

            (Natalie? If your name isn’t a reference to Natalie Wood? I’m going to put myself as old and I’m going to prove I’m a dork)

      • Hi Seeker, to answer your question, in a word, “calculations.” Forrest wasn’t good at math. I don’t think he would be calculating all of that stuff to get to a solve.

        Stuff: “25 Capital letters [ one at the beginning of each line and B in brown] totaling 44 or the 44th parallel.

        Now come the rest of the coordinators to place the searcher in a birds eye view “of ” the location of the Blaze. Counting the capital letters in alphabet order….. A in the beginning of each line give you … A’s = 5. B gives you 2. etc. [ all numbers are given numbers of the alphabet, just ask any child what the first letter of the alphabet is? Or the second . Etc.] Ending with {44} 52 ‘ 12” -111 23′ 10″.

        This is just my opinion. I don’t use those kind of hints or clues, but if you need them for your solve, please use them. It seems to complicated. I think more like you said, KISS, as well as straight forward. Hope this helps you in some way.

        • Carolyn,

          I like saying that name Carolyn…

          Anyways….

          I’m picking up what your putting down, as far a my method and theory. But Fenn not good at math?
          That is a bit hard to swallow. He did surveying at a point in his younger years, Yes? and was a Pilot, Yes? [ maybe one of the pilots on the blog can chime in ] There is a lot of calculation numbers involved. He ran a multimillion business with his wife…

          The man knows math, And a mind like a steel trap.

          As far as my method. simple saying A B C and lining up 1 2 3. doesn’t seem to terribly difficult. I was doing it in kindergarten. I think FF could handle it.

          But, mi Typin skil’s… tat a hole nother stori.

          • LOL, seeker. I’m just saying, Forrest said he is bad at math. I take it at face value. If he says it, I believe it. Could be a downfall of mine since he said only 85% has to be true. However, it could be 100%. The best of luck to you in your searches and have a great day!

    • Frank,

      I just love it when the Simple word is used. Especially when Fenn as warned us the poem is difficult but not impossible.

      So you made your comment… I ask now, are you willing to back up your thoughts with examples.

      The theory or interpretation i presented [ not in full mind you ] is simple in theme. It takes anyone fro anywhere and places them in an general, small location. The difficult is reading the other information that leads directly to the trove. But without understanding why you are there, you won’t understand that other information and how it is used.

      • seeker – when I said simple I ment people like me who only went to the 9th grade people that don’t know much about numbers people that at my age 68 who can still be able to solve the poem half of what you wrote I cant even understand what you said or ment that’s what I ment I ment that he wrote the poem where simple people like me could under stand and try to solve

        • Frank,

          it is more likely my explanation [ I’m not a writer ]
          Than you just not understanding what I said. The story of mans [humans] journey is still being explored, is what I’m talking about. And maybe the reason Fenn put a 20,000 word bio in the chest, so when found [ maybe 10,000 years down the road ] That Archeologist will have an understanding of Who Fenn was and what life was like at this present time.

      • seeker the poem is simple in its complexity. its a paradox because it is very simple but by the use of the words and their meanings he made it very complex. i don’t use the word simple to imply if one doesn’t get it they are not smart. i mean i believe there is a very simple solution to the poem that uses a very complex form to give us the clues. its what i believe and its my opinion. this certainly doest make you wrong or us right. it simple because if you make it too complex people end up with to many ideas to narrow down. fenn said the poem is complex but i dont think the clues are complex if you can pull them from the poem.

        i think your solve is as good as anyone else and well thought out. no one will know if they were right till someone finds TC until then we dont know who was close or way off.

        we should not judge other solve because we just done know how close they were.

    • frank we agree with you, let me add that doesn’t make us right and everyone else wrong. it just what we believe. all of this is real the chest, the poem, Mr. Fenn and his life but it takes own a dream like feeling because it is so surreal someone would hide a TC worth so much.

    • Danny-boy,

      That really depends on your definition of child. I think of “child” on different levels of meanings as well. one, is a term used by Mountain men. Two, is a young person and not so much a 5 year old. Keep in mind, fenn relates to his 13 year old self. Keep in mind he was mid teens when he and Donny set out for the Lewis and Clark trail and Not just a comfortable one day ride.

      How many 15 year old would today can say… Hey Mom, be home in a week or so, me and a friend a are renting a couple of horses and going over the Mountains to explore … with only a rifle, bedroll and candy bars.

      The ” show the poem to a child…” comment for me says, our teachings of geography show help. The point to this theory is, it is simple in nature. There are no codes, secret deciphers, no need for a Cracker Jack decoder ring or Goofy’s Ouija board mouse pad.

      • Oh sure, make fun of my wee gee board mouse pad. This from a guy that can take the statement “Some searchers overrate the complexity of the search” and turn that into what is one of the most contrived, complex, and convoluted solutions I’ve ever read. You have got to work for the government……..As you can see I’m a little sensitive about my mouse pad.

        While we are on the topic; I’ll be including a beautifully rendered copy of my wee gee board mouse pad in my new book. For a limited time a nominal fee of $799.95 will get you a signed and numbered wall hanging of my mouse pad.

        Fenn said the dictionary is an infringement of free speech. In the opinion of my wee gee board mouse pad the poem is straight forward if you understand the words. Simple as that.

        Just a couple examples from my wee gee board. Fenn has taken the normal use of a non-count noun (waters) and used it to count. If you don’t have more than one “warm water” halting you are in the wrong place.

        My wee gee board says “Brown” is a proper noun….DUH…….Find the home (birth place) of a famous person named Brown and connect it to a location in the Rockies.

        Just one example: Barnum Brown commonly referred to as Mr. Bones, was an American paleontologist, named after the circus showman P.T. Barnum, who discovered the first documented remains of Tyrannosaurus Rex during a career that made him one of the most famous fossil hunters working from the late Victorian era into the early 20th century. His home–Carbondale, Kansas. Any Colorado searchers ever hear of Carbondale?

        Find the correct meaning/usage and combination of the words in Fenn’s poem and it will lead you to the chest.

        Very simple, very straight forward, and very difficult. The wee gee board hath spoken.

        • With all that the “weegee” board holds. @ 799.95 that’s a steal. Do you offer three easy payment for three times the price as well?

          It strike me funny that some have stated this is too complicated a theory. Yet, no one as said exactly why?
          You and others gave examples of the way you see the poem…. that’s great… I actually like what some have said. But even if you narrow down Multiple Waters, more than one… how many area does that fit with that description?

          I find the confusion of “warm waters” to be liquid waters that halt… a bit funny as it is a very common known process. Even a child know waters freeze. The next step was to try and understand why Fenn want us to know this.

          Well in theory anyways. So why is that complicated or to complex.

          As stated in the theory my problem with this thought is fenn’s comment … there are many WWWH in the Rockies … and most are north of SF. I said it before when this comment came out.

          …I don’t like it, I don’t like it at all… But it did make me think.

          • Liquid water halts when it freezes, and also when it evaporates… though the molecules keep moving upward to reform as clouds, but frozen water in glaciers doesn’t necessarily stand still either. Nothing really halts as we all sail around the sun. Guess thats a level of complexity we can dismiss.

          • I was giving you a hard time about making fun of my mouse pad. Obviously we disagree on the method of solving the poem, but I do want to commend you, as I did Iron Will, for putting your thoughts out there for dissection.

            What I find interesting is that you have landed in a very popular search area; especially since Fenn made the statement about not all the places existed when he was a kid. Earth Quake Lake would immediately come to mind for anyone familiar with that area.

            What I can’t discern from your solution is have you found a precise location to search? Do you think some searching will be required once on location?

          • Goofy yes, a garage size location.

            Well, that is if my brilliant solution is correct.

            No we not agree on how we see the poem, and that is fine… If we all thought the same way either the chest would have been found or we all would be eating the same pie.

            Fenn as stated we’re [the searchers] missing something and I agree. IMO we are reading the poem wrong.

          • Goofy,
            Let me add that this theory was done before the Not in Idaho or in the Rocky Mountains, Canada ruled out, etc. You know the time line of those clues.

            That is why way back when, the useless clues comment didn’t bother me. This theory already ruled out or confirmed those comments.

            But at that time the poem only led me to the area. the clues IMO are within the poem itself [ the structure ] that directs the reader to the spot. IF and yes that is a big IF those clues are correct, and why fenns comment an architect wrote the poem, gave me a little bit of hope i was on the right line of thinking.

            And the very last thing to be found was the coordinates. Anyone who wants to take a peek, let me know what is on the side of that Mountain. I’m sure the view will be interesting.

            So just like everyone else I see information in the after the fact comments… Just not clues.

          • Seeker, if you’ve got it nailed down to a garage size spot it’s time to load the truck and go. Of course if the area is actually like my garage it might take a little longer to look. 🙂

        • In the Victorian era warm waters were known as spirits or firewater to the native Americans. How about warm waters halt in a barrel or a can of sorts these days. Like a pirates barrel of rum.

          By the way Savanna, no need to save me. As a lifeguard, I’m just fine swimming alone in there.
          LOL couldn’t resist the pun all in the name of Forrest Fenn fun 😉

          • In the days of wooden ships, the fresh water in barrels was known as the quick water or lively water. The microscopic organisms began to reproduce, and well, it was lively. Pass the rum, halt the quickly please.

  4. Another searcher’s take on the seeking of the TC? C’mon, f, tell us another story. I’ll bet you can think one up quickly!

      • Mama don’t let your babies grow up to be cowpies… Sorry I couldn’t help it… Seeker I really like your thoughts… But like Danny Boy I wonder about the child aspect of it all. I suppose if we truly understood Forrests’ definition of a child that would help… Like you said since he relates to his 13 year old self maybe we start there… Where would a 13 year old Forrest hide a treasure?

        • spallies we dont think fenn meant that a ten old could solve the poem. remember he said a 10 yr old could go to the place in safety.

          seeker you dont have to defend your solve none of us need to defend our solve. we own them because of all the work, hope and time we put in to them. dont try to prove your self to others. know you did your best and its yours.

        • Spalles,

          What is a child? that discussion had a lot of ears ringing long ago.

          If ya like simple, a child is below teen years or maybe some folks think a child under the age of 18. Who really knows what fenn meant.

          One interesting point was brought up a while back. { I’ll blame this on Jason… if it comes back and bites me in the ….}

          Mountain Men terms; A child is a coon or racoon.
          a coon : is a term of endearment from one Mountain Man to call another.

          So is fenn have fun with us… and actually saying show the poem to Mountain man without actually saying it?

          I’m sure someone will say this is too complicated as well, but not explain it with reasoning.

          The other thing is “Fenns” 13 year old self… In the 1930 and 40’s kids did a lot more wondering then those of today. Having manual paying jobs was common as well… today that is child labor. When I was in my single digest I threw hay bales for the local farmer who payed a nickle a bale. Today he’d be arrested. Time were much different and so were the meanings of words.

  5. Seeker,
    As always your thoughts and logic provoke one to use more than one brain cell at a time. The multi layered approach as expressed by you seems to define the complexity of the poem, while at the same time, gives direction where there seems to be none. As the clues reveal themselves, each layer verifies the next. I am partial to this approach, but remain cautious before moving on. And so…The effort put forth is directly proportionate to the outcome. Nicely done.

    • Ken,
      I appreciate it.
      My only true reason for putting this theory out there is to “Provoke” new thoughts. As you said : “As the clues reveal themselves, each layer verifies the next.”

      I have always believed that the poem reveals itself when read with a fresh mind in each reading. We all have been told to read, read it again and read it some more. Each time I do i see a different Theme, for lack of a better term, and each one works and confirms the next reading.

      One theme is Birth and life… another is death and a ceremonial ritual… and so on, all working to see a pattern.

      I also see Three journeys if you will. 1. the journey of man or I.
      2. fenn’s journey of the same.
      3. The challenge for us [ the searcher to do the same ]

      IMO…. This maybe the reason for fenn to place the clues in a poem, so he could utilize interpretation of words, meanings, phrases, etc. to it full potential. The book IMO is there for confirmation [ if you know what to look for ] and the means to get the poem out.

  6. Seeker, I am impressed with the complexity and depth of your analysis but wonder if you haven’t “overrated” the complexity of the poem as Forrest suggested in the quote you provided. Many people have narrowed the search area down to the vicinity you describe without identifying the underlying cosmic scheme that you “see” in the poem which makes me wonder whether it is really contained in the poem and more importantly, why it would be there at all if it is there. It reminds me a little of taking a literature class and hearing others dissect a story, a simple story, into profound oblivion. Here, we aren’t just trying to understand a story but to find a chest. Kind of like analyzing the meaning of a muffin when following a recipe to make one. Is all of that analysis necessary? The bottom line for me however, is that I believe that you are in the right area and if it took a journey into the ice age and back for you to get there, so be it. Thanks for sharing you thoughts and I admire you willingness to consider others input into you solve—I see that you get a lot of negative feedback when you critique others ideas although you thoughts are usually very candid, well thought out and appear to be made with the intent assist rather then to just mock. My intent was to offer the same to you.

    • Raven,

      Now we’re talking…. You bring up good points. whether this theory is good or just a lot of hot-air doesn’t really matter. The point is as you stated: “but wonder if you haven’t “overrated” the complexity of the poem as Forrest suggested in the quote you provided.” The fact is the poem is “difficult” we have been so by the Author.

      I don’t believe i have taken the poem into “oblivion” as you said, but i do see how you could come to that conclusion. The poem is all about interpretation designed by the writer to make the reader think, all poem do this. But even though it may look difficult at first the over all interpretation is simple… and is know to all from our learning and teachings in school.

      You said: Thanks for sharing you thoughts and I admire you willingness to consider others input into you solve—I see that you get a lot of negative feedback when you critique others ideas although you thoughts are usually very candid, well thought out and appear to be made with the intent assist rather then to just mock. My intent was to offer the same to you.

      I thank you for this comment. I know at times i come over as knocking another theory… but my attempt is to find a possible Flaw if you will… I see so any solves with after the fact comments, statements, SB’s and Q&A’s as the only information used [ or mostly used ] to get to a conclusion and very little on the poem itself. I find this method force fitting to make a solve and not analyzing the poem.

      My theory… Right, wrong, or indifferent, uses the poem and what i see in the poem, along with common knowledge and “hopefully” common sense.

    • Seeker,

      Simple != Easy
      Difficult != Complex

      My attempt at constructive input would be to suggest you (and everyone) study the definitions of the above words. In your responses, you have shown that you do not have a good understanding of them. I have spoken.

      • Um ok, sure. Meanings of words… where do I begin?

        There is another blog with the thread title… Multiple Meanings. Have a look if you will.

        Was it not FF who said the poem is Difficult { meaning complex as to your example } but not impossible.

        The Quote at the top of this page states ” “Some searchers overrate the complexity of the search.”

        The poem is complex and difficult. just not as overrated as some have thought. Using codes and dragon eggs.

        So please explain why you feel this theory… right or wrong… is too complex or difficult. That is one of the reasons for posting it.

        Did you know there are several usages for the word cold? That was very interesting for me when I read some 50 in all variations of the word.

        How many ways can ” There’ll be no paddle up your creek” be understood or interpreted?
        No creek… crossing over a creek… a difficult situation, between a rock and a hard place… in a bind… trapped… a narrow passage… just to say a few.

        • Hi seeker

          I believe the poem has 3 usages for cold.

          1. Cold season (Hear me all)
          2. Color Blue
          3. Bronze cold

          This poem is 3dimensional

          Think of it like an origami puzzle.

  7. Seeker,

    Another interesting approach from the abstract mind and you get my admiration for the thinking and the posting. Although, I am in the camp of the poem being entirely geographical and taking BOG to solve – it does have multiple meanings, layers, hints, and most certainly a single theme but all those to me, IMHO, are all geographical and physically present today.

    Best of Luck in the Hunt,

    The Lone Aspen

    • Lone Aspen,
      I’m glad you brought that up…. Present day analogy… And correct me if I’m wrong in what you mean….

      I don’t believe the physical locations are anything modern, if you will… I thinks most if not all physical location are just as old as the hills themselves. A tree for example will not stand any test of time. Fenn hid the TC some 5 years ago… If a tree held a marker or represented a clue, it could very well be Blown down, burnt to a crisp even cut down by a local for fire wood to keep is family warm in the cold of winter.

      The same for modern places… always changing. I truly believe that not only the chest but the physical location of the clues are places known of and places that will take many ages to change.

      Such as the Ice free corridor may not truly exist today… but the Continental Divide does and the correlation between them and the poem still does and will in the future.

      But lets face facts… the longer the chase goes on, the harder it will be to find the trove, Fenn has even stated as such.

      • That is true seeker ….. but what if Forrest “I have thought of everything” Fenn has built in some redundancy that will still lead the way to the solve for some time to come?

        • That would be the first question I would ask FF if ever I had the chance… What exactly do you me by, “I have thought of everything” ?

          I think the [IMO] the answer would be to make the poem readable in so many ways yet, simple in meaning when understood properly. This line of personal thinking tells me that the poem is not “just” a set of step by step direction but it has a significance to The chase itself.

          one of is comments was… some got the first two clues correct but may have not it know it, because the went by / walked past… So what is the significance of the first two clues to the place that searcher[s] were and what did they miss? was it something on sight? or was it the just didn’t understand why they were there?

          There is more to the poem IMO than ‘just’ instructions.

  8. Seeker, I also have followed the ice age in one of my solves, but haven’t combined it with my other interpretations/solves. I like the layers idea, combining them, and how you have used that for confirmation. I think you could be on the right path, and if you can’t get out there to look for yourself, perhaps you can develop a trust with someone so that you could feel comfortable enough to share (with that person) your full solve to have that someone look for you. I wanted to to be able to point out a flaw for you, but don’t see one. Good interpretation of difficult but not impossible.

    • Kat, Thanks.

      I have bumped heads with other searcher… mainly, I believe is they feel I was downing their solve. For myself if a solve can be shown inconsistency with what we have been told by the Author. Then something is out of sorts with that solve. I would think that person would hope another searcher point that out… this is a forum for just that kind of discussion.

      But some take it as an attack. Sad really, if you truly think about it.

      Other in the past have done just that for me… And I’ll give credit where credit is due. SamSmith, The Wolf, Goofy, Jason, Chris yates, MDavis, Sidncharlie, Loco, postmaster, John Brown and many others. I appreciate their feed back and comments.

      The challenge of the chase as brought out the helpfulness in most and the Obsessiveness in others… But that is just human nature at it’s best and worse.

        • Hey RP, I would have e-mailed you, but that got lost in the Crash of 2014… when my computer blew up with so much Chase info.

          When ya heading back out on the next train to chaseville?

      • Thank you Seeker, however I and many other searchers (willing to listen) owe you many thanks for finding the errors in our logic and push us to produce better solutions. It is your combination or thinking a different way and your talent to find logical flaws in our linear solutions saves us from following embracing incorrect solutions.

        For those who can put their egos in the back seat and listen to what others like you see; can advance their search effort. Many choose to learn through failure while others will never learn while choosing to spin their wheels on their initial search concept defeating what I believe is Fenn’s most important advise: “You have to find out, to learn where the first clue is.”

        Once one learns, they can put on a vernal set of wheels that give traction and point the way…

        • Wolf if my comments help… a few coins my way would be nice. or maybe that thing that fenn talked about, that he didn’t want to talk about… I’ll make sure “she” gets it.

        • I feel like I am reading the nba finals of the chase..

          I could never be Lebron or Curry or Wolf and Seeker but dang this is some great conversations.

          btw Seeker,
          who what where why, i like it. ‘it’ the human path, very nice lock on ‘it’. You may have hit an off tangent on the 44th parallel, imo. I wonder why you stepped so far away from the clovis to MN.

          I am worried you may of just helped out about possibly 789 searchers tonight… doh!

          • Navyigator,

            It just may be I confused 789 searcher even more tonight . lol

            The hoB, right or wrong I thought was clever, as it connects in so many ways. and Still give physical location, just not one you need to travel to. Just to understand.

            I think that is a problem for most to swallow as they feel each section of each clue should be a boots on the ground experience.

            And It did get get folks talking… that was the whole point of the post… thanks.

  9. No KISS for you! But good work.
    I do think you found some bones, but not enough to give title to the skeleton. Take a break, then show it again to your inner child, and your 13 year old self, then your knowing-self, and finally, know it again for the first time.
    In the mean time, I’m gonna gnaw on those bones for a while if you don’t mind. MMMmmm good.

  10. Seeker –

    Thank you for your brave post of a well thought out solution
    to this difficult quest.

    It shows you have been at this a long time and are not playing games.
    Speaking of games – did you think about the poker clue?

    You did indeed trigger my thinking – and at this point
    that doesn’t happen too often. 🙂 and I thank you for that too.

    I think you nailed the theme (being one of few to do so). I have it
    in my solve as being a little more personal to FF and his Family.

    I also believe there is another reoccuring theme – and
    that is IN THE MIDDLE – perhaps this will help get you
    closer to the “X” – I hope so.

    I wish you luck on your journey and would hope you can find a way to put boots
    on the ground. PS – the details of why you cannot would not in anyway be boring to us.
    Perhaps someone could offer a solution. If that’s private – so be it.

  11. inthechaseto, There is nothing brave about ratchet jawing. lol at his point… that’s all any of this is. But thanks.

    First, I don’t believe the “poker” is a clue. I try to think of “clues” contained only in the poem. Why? because fenn stated the information in the book was unintentional…

    This has been a personal battle for me, and others as I read the blogs.

    Anything stated after the release of the book and the hiding of the chest “can not” be a clue [ again IMO] . A clue is a “needed” piece to the solve, everything else is helpful information…IMO. Like my comment or not… that is just the way I see it…. If not… then the poem is useless in itself and can’t not be solved. I just don’t believe that.

    When talking about the “Middle” – again I see it as helpful. I think, using my theory that he means, just as in life, when gone he is a piece of the puzzle. Or the journey[s] I tried to explained. And why he left a bio for the next generation to read, to fill in those missing pieces as archeologist to today.

    That generation could be thousands of years from this point in time.

    What is your take on the poker?

    • Seeker –

      IMO – The POEM purists are limiting themselves.

      Nothing will be accidental.

      I like what Toby said about this subject –

      “As far as incidental or unintentional clues it may be the clue he didn’t give vs. the ones he did give……..When people were digging up old out houses he came out with a clue and said not to do that; when folks thought it was in a cemetery the clue said it was not in a cemetery and not to be digging up graves; but when the fellow got in trouble for digging a small hole on the side of the road he came out with a lengthy rant about how it was wrong to charge him……….So is it buried beneath the blaze on a pull-out along a road that overlooks the whole poem?”

      My take on Poker is that at one point in the solve – it must be played or your final destination will be wrong.

      • I actually like Toby’s thought there. We all know Fenn like the many usages and twist of words. Personally I think the terms buried vs. hidden fall into a legal aspect… and may be why Fenn is so quick on the up take to correct others when they say “buried treasure.” But that is a discussion for “legal Pondering”

        But as being a Poem Purist… I have to say I believe the poem alone is the complete solve. No outside information needed, other than common knowledge. BUT, yes there is research to be done. One simple example is the area alone. If a searcher is not familiar with the location research is a must.

        Question; Do you think fenn wrote the poem for only searchers in the local area… meaning USA… or did he have the mind set of the World populous in mind?

        • Seeker –

          You asked –

          Question; Do you think fenn wrote the poem for only searchers in the local area… meaning USA… or did he have the mind set of the World populous in mind?

          First I will say – I don’t know. It’s oddly worded as the local area and USA are entirely different things. Do I think locals have a better chance? Perhaps so. Do I think he made the poem with that in mind – no. Does he care if someone out of the USA finds it – no. I don’t find any prejudice in the man.

          I also think he made the poem difficult – so that the person who finds it – and he doesn’t care who – will have earned it. Earning it means working a plan, continuing on thru adversity, not giving up when you might want to, keep the faith even after not finding it on the ground – and continuing on.

          I also think he made it fun and we should never forget that.

          So – if you are a Poem Purist – I guess the GPS or Google Earth or another map is OK? Oh – and what about the internet – is that out because he did not say that is included? What about some of the wonderful books and art out there – ? What would lead anyone to the Opera and why would FF want to play the cello? I’m guessing that you would dismiss these things as not being in the poem. And genealogy – I guess that would be going too far? History is one of the most important finds to me, but I did not see that listed in the poem. Hints in the poem lead me there.

  12. Bravo Seeker! If there was an award for the most well thought out solve you would get it. I have observed a historical aspect within the poem and what you have offered for thought took my line of thinking one step farther. To confirm this I recall reading a story That started out: ” As I have ” It was an interesting story about the creation. I apologize for not being able to link it here. I read so many.

    One of my earliest solves involved glacier national park and the grand canyon.
    With the addition of the hob you offer I may need to revisit that solve.
    Thanks so much for the wonderful posting and well thought out process.

    • Chad, don’t dismiss GNP yet.

      The theory presented is a time period and some of my own personal problems with it I stated. But think about GNP… as Kat and I was discussing about modern time period. That park can work with most of my theory as well… It does kill my hoB though.

      Lets take my theory and thoughts and lose the time period for a sec.
      Could the overall theme be the same and I have the wrong hoB? Still using the CD could the “the end is ever nigh” means we still have to travel down the CD to a lower area… Maybe Colorado or New Mexico?

      As always a theory is just that… and needs to be proven. But this is not a laboratory, the real test is finding the Trove.

      Have you ever wondered by fenn stated. [ paraphrasing ] all you need is the poem, the book for reference, Google earth and/or a good map?

  13. Seeker,
    You said: “I think the [IMO] the answer would be to make the poem readable in so many ways yet, simple in meaning when understood properly. This line of personal thinking tells me that the poem is not “just” a set of step by step direction but it has a significance to The chase itself.”

    IMO this is an assumption that many of us have made….that HE made the poem readable in many ways. It may be a subtle difference, but I think WE make the poem read in multiple ways. I think he exploited our human nature knowing most of us, when faced with a difficult problem and no ready solution, assume the problem is complex and we then begin to fabricate intricate solutions. Fenn is like a judo master, using our own mental inertia against us.

    So I would agree with others that there may not be a need for “layers” and complexity. Sure the poem is “difficult” but the actual clues may be quite simply once we know how to interpret them. I don’t think those terms are mutually exclusive. I think the self-imposed complexity is what leads most of us to such far-fetched and tortured solutions.

    I like most of you comments because you tend to refocus peoples thoughts back to exact things that F has said and things a given solution may have overlooked. He said he provided sufficient information for the average person to solve the riddle (the book, a map, and the poem). I don’t see an average guy coming up with your train of thought (you’re welcome) using those three items.

    Anyway, keep up the good work….you do have lots of great thoughts.

    • Colokid,

      Great comments… I agree with you. Maybe my term “layers” is not the right wording to use.

      Think of it this way. I want to use “black” in a painting, but I don’t have black to use. So I mix all the colors to make it work creating Black.

      When I re-read the poem and see different possible meanings… They seem to fit with an overall result. Combine them and the poem appears to blend. That is what I mean by layers, a cleverly written and phrase poem to show a complete story / journey.

      The other Option is to see it only as one way, and that is “just” directions. So how does the reader decipher a single warm waters location by just the poem? If that is the first clue. If WWWH is the start and happens to be a body of water[s] a lake, river[s], creek etc.

      if that information is found in the book then the book must be a clue itself. Yet fenn had made many comment there are no intentional clues in the book. and the poem conatins the 9 clues [ i know i’m a little off track to your comment ] but if an average person can not find a body of water -single / correct – water[s] in the Rocky Mountain… then there is a flaw in the poem or this line of thinking. or maybe WWWH is not the first clue.

      Boy I’m going to get heat for that last statement…

      But again great comment.

      • Seeker,
        I would refer you back to your MW question:
        Mysterious Writings Aug 6 2014
        “Other than the poem describing how to locate the Trove and one of its purposes to encourage people to get out of the house and away from electronics, is the poem designed to convey a deeper significance? Is there a subtle message you are sharing with the reader and hope they realize? ~ Seeker
        .
        No Seeker,
        The poem is straight forward with no subterfuge in sight..”

        It would seem that you want there to be a theme or deeper meaning hidden within the poem but F tells us no. I have spent a lot of time going down that track also but now I’ve decided to take him at his word on this matter.

        At the risk of giving too much away on my current work I think you need to go simpler. What information would the out-of-work redneck with 12 children and pickup have on the top of his head? I believe that’s the level of thinking we need to be at to determine WWWH. It doesn’t matter that there are many…you get lost in the numbers…..it’s the one that the average man has access to.

        • Nice one colokid and I can see why you would think I’m force feeding a theme. But That theme is straightforward.
          Again some have said it’s to complex but n one has explained why?

          ….Why is the understanding that the Author maybe narrating the poem and telling a journey of man from the old world to the new world and brings with him i possessions and now our rich knowledge of what we have discovered by finding those remains and artifact. { the short and sweet of it }….

          So fenn is a collector of artifact… he is an explore… he is very well inform self- archeologist…He enjoys the knowledge and stories of the ancient past.

          Fenn answer No to… ” is the poem designed to convey a deeper significance? Is there a subtle message you are sharing with the reader and hope they realize? ”

          A theme or understanding of the poem was not in question, what was in question was fenn trying to convey a “message”. At this time in the chase there was alot of talk about political crap , legal stuff, government policies and laws that limit the use of public lands etc.

          so I take that answer as nothing to do with the theme or meaning or interpretation of the poem and is still straightforwards.

  14. Seeker, I’v been cooking some Extraction Stew with those bones , and your migration trail from China, down thru the Bering Strait to the glacier halts reminded me that in the beginning of TTOTC there was a photo of FF signing books at the turquoise mine, and in the beginning of TFTW, there is a picture of his turquoise belt buckle. Turquoise got its name from Turkey, a trade stop on that later famous route from China to the west. I wonder if a trade route map layered on top of ice age map, in some poetic way completes a circle….at a cache, in the middle?

      • Well, closing the circle in the middle, still leaves a very, very big middle. But I think the concept completes one layer of thought. Now, lets get down to a more current time span before we reach some end of days event.

        • I died laughing when I read your post. Problem is I die laughing reading many of these. For some reason I think people r full of jokes. Then I start realizing how serious they were. I suppose a trade route map overlay would be neat.

  15. Seeker,

    “Excellent research materials are TTOTC, Google Earth, and/or a good map.f”

    Is not Fenn’s use of the word “excellent” a clue that all a person would need is the TTOTC, Google Earth and a good map in order to solve the poem?

    Why would one need to know anything else outside those “research materials”?

    The way I saw it, was:

    1. TTOTC contains ‘hints’.
    2. Google Earth would provide views of various locales.
    3. A good map would provide more precise details on things that GE doesn’t. His use of “and/or” would be based on the possibility that GE currently or eventually will provide those details (in the event that the search goes beyond his life time).

    • Is this “the” germanguy?

      We can go back an forth on “excellent” and “unintentional” “buried vs, hidden” ” clue vs. hint” for years to come. And i’ll add that none of that was known when the book was first published.

      But IMO– “Is not Fenn’s use of the word “excellent” a clue that all a person would need is the TTOTC, Google Earth and a good map in order to solve the poem?” you asked.

      My answer to your question is No, that is not a clue… it’s not even a hint [IMO]…Helpful information, Yes.

      The poem came within the book. It just make sense to use the book. But again if a “Must Need Clue” to solve the poem has to come from the book…. then the poem is unsolvable on its own.

      That contradicts many other comments… too many to bother with.

      Yeah, I see the confusion… I have my own dilemma over those… I’ve yelled out- WTH- a few times thinking about them, But we may never truly know…

      So how did ya like my theory?

      • Seeker,

        IMO, I believe you are reading way to much in to this search. No knowledge of history is needed. Germanguy is right, all you need is the poem, Google Earth, and a good map.

        I think Forrest is telling us in poem form where his secret place is. It’s dear to him for personal reasons not for historic, geological or any other reason other than it being a personal one. He is telling us the directions to this site in a poem where even a kid could help find it.

        There are no clues in the book other than in the poem. Hints on the other hand maybe all over the place, in the book, SB’s, interviews, and even in emails. But, clues are only in the poem. A hint is something than helps with the clues, they help to define the clues, not telling you where the treasure maybe.

        This place where the treasure is hidden is dear to him and only him. It is not a place where many people go. So everyone should keep that in mind. I think he first found this place while searching for artifacts, or searching for someone dear to him. It’s a very private place.

        On another note, Germanguy you were on the right track in thinking uranium in your solve. It’s also in my solve. Seeker you are a deep thinker and you keep it interesting , but IMO you need to get back to the KISS method. Remember it’s a personal thing. Thanks for posting your thoughts.

      • Ritt,

        No need for US history anyways.

        Again some say this method is too complicated… maybe someone will explain why?

        So far i have heard other explain their own theory or parts of it… to contradict this theory but not why it so complicated… Trust me folks I’m not going to have a melt down like others have.

        And Ritt yes the place is dear to him but what does that have to do with Getting to that place?

        And yes there are no clues other than the poem… others are just hints.

        As far as the place not visited by many is yet to be seen. But I guess that depends on what many means to you and how larger the special place / area is.

        As well as the KiSS method. Please again, Why is this method so complicated? complex ? etc.

        If folks make comments like this and don’t back it up with some logical explanation…. all it is, is talk.

        • Seeker if you don’t mind what state or jurisdiction do hail from? Are you guy or girl? Interesting take on F poem.

          • I feel like I’m on a date?

            From NY but moved out, a guy who loves gals, and sorry ladies … Married.

          • Just curious, interesting perspective that’s all. Don’t freak, not seeking 🙂

  16. Interesting info about the Browns Valley Man and an interesting read of the interpretations and connections you made. However, many people have searched the same area in the Rockies as your interpretations took you just by reading TTOTC. I think I’ll stick with the book, poem, and GE and/or a good map. 🙂

  17. Seeker,

    I have always enjoyed your interesting perspectives on the meanings behind the poem. I just feel that the great mystery behind the true meaning of the poem comes down to just one very interesting fact. That is, Forrest was very precise in telling everyone exactly where the chest was hidden. However, as exacting as it is, like a surfer skimming over and through the waves, no one here has found that ‘epic’ wave as of yet.

  18. Just a short comment…

    I have wondered, how many people had considered the meaning behind Fenn’s line in the poem “Look quickly down” and thought that maybe (because he was a pilot)he was referring to his perspective of the spot where the chest was. Given his recommendation of using Google Earth. Are you not ‘looking down’ in GE?

  19. I hope all searchers follow along these lines, and look for a solve that is as complex and convoluted as they can make it. It will keep everyone occupied while I follow Forrest’s advice to keep it simple, and locate the treasure.

  20. Thanks for sharing Seeker. That certainly took some thought, which is what is needed to find the treasure. I did not take this type of approach. I kept it very simple by using only definitions and maps …and some obsessing about every blog post, article and video about the subject. I then formulated a solve and went to pick up the treasure! But it wasn’t there. I then ordered TTOTC, read it twice and refined my solve. I searched again. It led me only 2/3 of a mile away from my first search. Still nothing. I was 99% sure I would be taking it home that trip, but failed again.

    My point is that there have been hundreds of different views about every line in the poem and still nobody has found the treasure. I prefer the simple approach, but I haven’t found it either. So thank you for sharing your thoughts.

    Please forgive me for not sharing my own specific translations. I’m 100% right with my latest solve! (And if you believe that…) 😉

    • Tom,

      I think some times people take some of the comments Fenn makes too literal and pick and choose how they like to use them.

      From the beginning Fenn told us it would not be easy. it would be difficult but not impossible. But when so many went to the far side
      with Codes and graphs, Alien dragon eggs { I know I keep repeating that… But I laughed for days with that one}.
      And stated Folks were making it more complicate then it already is. [ that is my take on the quote.] I think most look at it as it as to be really simple and only a child can see it.

      Making the straightforwards way too literal and simple and the Kiss method as well.

      The SB with the shower wall fits this example well… it reminded me of the Ink Blots… [ what ever that test is call ]. Some see a butterfly, others see an Angel, I see a blob of ink.

      • lol Alien Eggs – I loved that one too!
        Seeker I cannot emphasis what you just said “Making the straightforwards way too literal, ” enough. This is a puzzle and complex poem made by an architech that is intentionally made to appear simple.

        Let not the word “simple” deceive. For instance “give it to a kid” who says the emphasis or key is on a child? From an architechtual or riddle point of view, this statement can take on many subtle but meaningful forms that can provide the necessary slap in the face and “what took me so long.”

        The same could be made for history. Many now discard any form of history outright because he said it is not required to figure out the poem. Sure it may not be required to figure it out, but he didn’t rule it out as a helpful method in explaining and prooving to the searcher the solution is correct.

        If I have learned one thing in this hunt – it is not to assume anything. Except codes and cyphers – that is just silly. lol

        • Wolf
          Allow me to use you as a example…

          In this theory do you feel my method of using the capital letters know to all as letters in the alphabet and using them with their numbers taught to all as. A is the first letter… B is the second letter. C is the third letter of the alphabet… And use those commonly known numbers to see a pattern of numbers….

          As a code?

          And explain your thought if you will.

          Thank you in advance….

          • Oh man I knew you were going to drag me into this…
            Code: “is system of rules to convert information—such as a letter, word, sound, image, or gesture—into another, sometimes shortened or secret, form or representation for communication through a channel or storage in a medium”

            First off let me be the first to say that I have used numbers in the book to give a false sense of security. Although technically not coded, I call it confirmation or motivational bias. It makes the argument much more believable if an independent method confirms the location. In my case, I used the ’36 Chev for a ’41 Plymouth as an example. as 36N 41W which was exactly the latitude of my Bear Canyon owl blaze.

            At the time I was convinced I had it right and it took me a while to admit that I simply searched for something to confirm my location. It seemed like an overwhelming home run but the problem I realized is anyone can twist anything to support something if they look and bend hard enough.

            The problem with coding is the coding has to be proven not to be coincidental. It must be repeatable and predictable to prove something else, say HoB or WWWH or some other aspect to prove it isn’t coincidence.

            Same with anagrams; look hard enough and you can find something to justify anything. Some searcher once made a big deal because a sentence contained a bunch of letters that could be scrambled to make it seem significant. The problem is there were so many letters available that those letters could form any sentence to refute the supporting evidence. The fact is a large number of letters from large combination of words may seem astronomical to form a clue but in reality it is quite probable.

            With that said, subtract your numbering system and your solution still has merit and cannot be discounted on coding alone. It just can’t be used to support it.

            If Fenn assigned numbers to letters as a code, I am convinced it would have been solved already. I posted an obvious coded example using Edgar Alan Poe’s Goldbug code and it was solved by someone within hours. There are many smart people out there and using a code makes the solution less sexy and romantic. I believe FF is a romantic thus coding seemed unlikely from the beginning.

            I may be tainted because my degree is in computer science and I know most codes can be broken depending on the strength of the key. Computer science is not sexy and it definitely is not romantic – so I turn the question around and ask:

            Why do you think Mr. Fenn, a romantic, a guy who does it his way, a person who opening admits he prayed for Ds and acknowledged no codes, would decide to use coding in his poem?

            To give some hope I do not discount mirror images for he has used that in the past and there is no shortage of mirror discussion in his verbiage.

            Sorry for the verbose reply,
            The Wolf

          • I forgot one final convincing reason why codes are ruled out. Someone noticed Fenn published two different versions of the poem, basically a one letter difference that means nothing for interpretation but everything to a coder. His response: (para phrase) “Pick one it makes no difference”

          • Wolf,

            I’m typing with tears in my eyes… sorry for dragging you into it…. lol

            Yep codes, don’t like them myself. But I didn’t assign a number to a letter. I’m repeating myself here as i answered this on another post. but you took the time to do so. thanks

            Everyone is taught that the letter A is the 1st letter of the alphabet and so on. So I asked myself why capitalize all the letters in each line if there not some kinda hint or clue. So the simple way to see them is to used the assigned numbers we all have been taught an understand. A simple and hopefully logical way to see a possible clue… and it worked out well lining up with the area.

            Sorry about the leg pulling… take two aspirins and call me in the morning.

          • You are a funny guy Seeker and I bit into your Pickles (ooh that doesn’t sound right) to keep your interesting thread alive. Happy to be the goat this time around. It comes down to definition of code, I guess as long as it is justified.

      • Alien eggs? Really? Wow!

        I’ll give you an exple of what I mean by simple vs. complex;
        Your home of Brown mentions a person, not a place where someone would love. Then you took the parallel to get your Brown out of Minnesota and into the search area.

        For me, it’s not as simple as finding “Brown House”, but I do believe this line refers to an actual place on a map inside the Rockies. But which place? I went so far as to look up when capitalization is used. It made me discard anything related to the popular conclusion of brown trout – because types of fish are not capitalized. So my answer to this is difficult, but simple. I also noticed that “home of” implies possession. So the home belonging to Brown would be called Browns home. So I only allowed locations that included the “s”. So nothing abstract, but not straightforward either.

        • I answered this below before reading your post. but the short version is capitalizing Brown making it a person or a place or a thing as we all know from school. The remains of the 9000 man found in Browns Valley @ the 45th P. give us a place to match up with the CD – Ice free corridor. Name is obvious as a give name by the archeologist who found it, and the things are his possession/ treasures/ artifacts.

          The use of Home is about habitation by definition, so Habitation of ancient man during the same time period { well close enough for horseshoes } and works with the theory. B for a person and a place and a thing… all three.

          Again i’ll mention as i did in the other post. this one clue gave me pause… but my thought before finding it, was a person of this time period… so it works well. I left a link that will show you a map that will help explain my line of thinking below as well.

  21. Seeker, I just found your solve. I like it, have nothing to comment on now, will dissect and get back to you, but I do like the possabilities. Nice solve.

    • Have at it Charlie, That is actually what I have been waiting for. Just don’t kick my hoB to hard… the guy had a tough time already… 9000 years old, lived during some of the worse climate changes, and toilet paper was not yet invented.

  22. As many are pointing out you really need to simplify things seekre. Fenn is a straightforward —> 1-2-3 kinda guy. “Show the poem to a kid” nice try though.

    • Cat cut

      Many have said just that… I don’t mind that either. But no one has said or explained why. Just repeating… That Forrest said simple. I get it. So can you explain why this theory it overly complicated?

      The reason I put the quote at the top of this page was for just that reason… No need for code etc. Because some searchers were doing just that.

      Where in my theory and interpretation did it become to complex for you?

      Hope you respond… Thanks

  23. Seeker,
    You’ve asked someone to explain why this theory is too complex. I’ll give it a shot. Understand that I’m not saying your thoughts are wrong in any way but merely trying to explain why this solution seems complex to me with a few examples.

    ““i ” represents us or human kind as in the W-hen W-here W-hy and H-ows of archaeology. When twisting the meaning of the word “i” We can read the poem as such. “ Why must we “Twist” things around? Why can’t the word stand alone? Seems forced.

    “ Begin it Where Warm Waters halt, [ Glacial period, a time period].”
    Although Forrest told us the clues refer to places; you seem to have converted this to a time period.

    “ [as in the Ice Free Corridor]” Is this a specific place or a large area?

    “Put in below hoB [or the Browns Valley man…” and “dryas”. I’m a college educated person but I’ve never heard of Browns Valley Man….. Ditto on “dryas” (collapse of North American Ice Sheet?). I have a normal basic understanding of glaciation and the Ice Age but I had to look that up. I have had geology classes and basic anthropology but I don’t think these are common talking points at the “average mans” cocktail party.

    “At this point we have what I consider a theme to the poem. Mans journey from the old World and the birth of human habitation…” To me, this theme is not straightforward. I come away with the feeling that it’s more like a thesis for a graduate student’s paper on archology/anthropology/geology.

    “Counting the capital letters in alphabet order….. A in the beginning of each line give you … A’s = 5. B gives you 2. Etc….” Aren’t you wandering into “code-talker” territory here?

    If we go back to what Fenn said would be good research materials (map, book, poem) it would appear that you have strayed outside the box a bit too far….IMO. He also said that, “…And at the end, the one who finds the gold will not feel lucky, but instead, will ask himself, what took me so long?” To me this means the answer will be a head slapper and I believe that when I read the correct solution it will also provide that same Ah-Ha moment. Just not getting that here.

    Having said all this, I also believe all options do need to be probed in order to home in on the correct interpretation. Keep digging…you could be on the right track!

    • colokid.
      First thank you for answering the question… I’m starting from the bottom of the page and working backwards so yours was the first response i came to.

      Fenn gave an example of a little twist to make it fit in a Q&A. but your correct, as the W’s don’t actually have and true meaning to the solve as much as a HMMM, that he may have used the WWWH as a very subtle… very subtle hint. Just my perspective. He also mentioned in a comment that he left a Bio for a future archeologist to find to know who and why this was done. So again just a perspective.

      Te time period is a place in many ways. One a place in time. the words “in there” may mean a pace in time. same as where if used with the same mind set. Not unlike the comment fenn made about the chain links, saying “lets harken” back to… where and there by definitions can be used the same way. The Ice free corridor is a physical place, and can be travel if wanted to… it’s just called the CD at the present time. It’s all about correlation to a place and the interpretation of it.

      HoB. Well this as been a dilemma of mine as well. If using ts theory as a period in time one would need to research that period as well…. we all do it for what every solve would attempt. This is fenn’s home turf if you will… if collection and knowledge etc. I think the understanding of the Glacial period in common knowledge to all, but there is always something to learn… everyone as a basic knowledge of an automobile, but not everyone as the knowledge of the specific of how everything work. Funny thing is when i was thinking about hoB for this theory i found the info on fenns blog. So take it for what’s worth, right or wrong, i thought it worked very well.

      Let me say now… this is a theory, I’m not here to say… Hey all I’ve done it, pat me on my back for being smarter than ya’ll… as many others have in the past…This for discussion of different views and readings of the poem. Now back to our regularly schedule program….

      Theme… good point maybe theme is not the correct word to use. I see the poem as cleverly written and in-part Narrated by fenn. the word [ i ] may be one of the most talked about words of any word… there are entire books and yes, thesis papers written.. about that word. Surprised the heck out of me honestly. But anyways that is why i think it’s a story of sorts being told of the journey and why The When Where Why and How of archeology plays a round in the thought. The journey of mankind is a straightforwards well know taught in every school… as best we know to this point in time. Nothing hard here to understand… it;s just not in plain sight when reading the poem… it needs to be seen after reading many time, with an open mind each time.

      Letters matching numbers as ” codes ” Yep could be… here’s the thought process. ask any kid over the age of 5 what the first letter of the alphabet is? and so on. Common understanding give those letters a number to match it up with… again all have been taught this…sometimes even before school age. BUT this maybe walking that gray area of codes etc. But i think of 15 years of working on and off of this poem tweaking it to get what fenn want to have places in it. and his comment an architect wrote the poem confirmed for me that the poem may hold more information ten just meanings of words and phrases to understand. Funny thing is The coordinates were the last thing i found in the poem and set me at the CD in MT below the 45th p. and high enough up for a birds eye view of my search area… Is there something there that need to be seen…Who knows I have not been there just yet. coincidence… maybe.

      The map… yep what can i say. my only thought is the same as the theory. It make a searcher see the journey of [ i ] from a global perceptive. Big Picture if you will. and for those who like to believe fenn consistently is giving out hint… could it be Google Earth and/or a good map a subtle hint? Maybe… it does work well wit this theory. but I don’t look at his comments as hints but maybe subtle confirmation… like the book.

      Hope that answers some, I’m sure not all, your question. And again thanks for asking.

  24. Question: If there is no human trail nearby, how does an 80 year old walk two miles – twice – both ways into rugged mountainous bush?

    • By placing one foot in front of the other. Your point? My guess is that he didn’t go that far but if he really wanted to, I bet he could have done it.

      • I will take your bet: that is 8 miles or 13 kilometers (of bush wacking at 500 meters/hr (that is the estimated rate from escape and evasion) or 26 hours – which is just a little outside an afternoon and that doesn’t factor in age or the extra 20 lbs of weight.

        • Whats with the assumptions? You would make a good magician since you are able to pull so much out of hat! Just because the chest isn’t in close proximaty to a trail does not mean he didn’t take one to get within close proximaty. The difficulty of a hike (especially off trail) and the time it takes to traverse it isn’t necessarily dependent on the distance travelled as much as it is dependent on elevation, vegetation, temperature, ease of navigation (are you stopping often to stay on course? or do you know where you are going?), physical stamina, unexpected barriers, weather, whether a bear is chasing you, etc. So, your estimate of 26 hours to travel 8 miles is just really a wild guess based on a lot of groundless assumptions in my view. I stand by my bet though that 5 years ago Forrest could hike 8 miles if he really wanted to–I just don’t think he did and he certainly did not “bush wack” for 26 hours as you imagine he would have had to do.

          • So I assume you are not interested in my proof that it is not in Wyoming then? lol (That is a joke Goofy so take your finger off that nuke button!) Thats fine, Samsmith should be showing up anytime now to confirm my bold prediction.

            I didn’t make up that bush wacking rate/number, ask FF himself I am sure he can confirm what the escape and evasion bushwacking rate is, but if I were him I would keep you guessing. But hey I am not interested in changing your mind whatsoever, so please continue – but the bet is still on just for fun.

    • This question reminds me of one of Forrest’s favorites… How deep is a hole?
      Very broad possibilities. What distance qualifies as close? It’s a tough one to answer with any precision. But it does rule OUT some locations that are on or connected directly to trails.

      • Really worried about that very ? There are four descending D’s in the poem which leads me to believe were talking 4ft deep.

    • “There isn’t a human trail in very close proximaty to where I hid the treasure”. f
      mysteriouswritings question from Buddy and the end of Forrest answer.
      First the spelling on “proximity” was wrong, might be a typo.
      So does ” close proximity” seem redundant? ” in proximity to” means “close to”. Now he said ” very close proximity to”, so if adding “close” to proximity makes it real close then when you add ” very close proximity” is that distance like “spitting distance” or “kissing distance”.
      Just some food for thought on “the distance from a human trail.” Bur

      • i dont think fenn said two miles but a bunch of us believe or think that a man who is sick and has to make one trip in, one trip out, and one trip back like he orginal planned two miles is a push.
        someone who has cancer just is not going to be able to hike too far. then at 79 a person who is not sick might hike maybe two miles, but you have multiply that by 4 trips. two miles x 4 is eight total miles. that is a lot in one day in rough ground. but if you go back to his original plan that he was suppose to be very ill so hiking a mile x three trips would really be hard. we dont think he hiked the canyon more than a 1 to 1 1/2 miles each trip

    • Wolf,

      The only view of the area i have seen is from pics. and good old Google. So I cant honestly answer that question of “rugged” Mountainous bush. But I do know this area was fenn’s playground, guide area, and stopping grounds for long visits at a time and for many years.

      But I won’t underestimate his abilities, knowledge and plannings. Dang! … a 90 plus year old woman just ran a marathon. who’s to say a what fenn can do.

      The Boots on the Ground folks are completely right when it comes to this “point” in any theory. Once a theory is completed to fill all aspects of the poem as best one can. the final judgement day and answers if one’s theory is correct is to…. have another searcher go there, just in-case you’re wrong. I wounder if Dal is still in the area?

      • Hey there is no underestimating from my perspective. My dad is almost 80 and I have seen him scale 30 grain bins and use an old combine belt to rapel from one bin to another!

        Perhaps it is best to not focus on what Mr. Fenn is capbalbe of but rather what others are capbable of. The question you have to honestly answer is: does it explain why people continue to arrive there?

        • The ability thing wasn’t directed at you…just a comment to all the same folks that keep say a 79 year can’t do it.

          My thought on fenns comment don’t go where a 79 year old man can’t, means Not on top a 14,500 foot Mountain top or rappelling a shear cliff face to check out a cave below. or swim across a river with 20lbs of gold on your back…etc, etc.

          You get the point… he’s saying use common sense.

        • gremanguy i am sorry i didnt explain it well. Fenn never said two mile. but our solve is based on the idea of his ORIGINAL plan to take chest once cancer got real bad and die in wilderness. i have spoke to people who have had different stages of cancer. including some one on blog who is stage four cancer. when some one is that sick they are not able to travel far and they tire easy. we base our solve on him being ill with cancer because that was his plan. we IOHO dont think he planed as a cancer sick person to drive “NOT FAR BUT TOO FAR TO WALK” under 250 miles north of his home and once there. again as a sick person he planned to hike one trip in, one trip out, and one more back in. for a total of three trips. if he hiked a mile that is three miles with a very sick man. at the most we not not believe its reasonable that a person sick with cancer to hike more than 6 mile and to us that would be a stretch. this is IOHO.
          may i ask a question do you live in us by some chance. we run into some guys in Denton tx who were renting a car a few weeks before we did and they were very secretive. just wondering

          • Wildbirder,

            I see your logic in your line of thinking. But are you jumping the gun? What i mean is, IF he decided to, for go treatment or the treatment didn’t work, The actual One Time Trip would be only a One Way Trip.

            So by your line of thinking… and i do like it… if would be possible for a sick man to manage three miles round trip. Then three miles one way should be the same. Yes?
            And with that in mind would to be inconceivable for a healthy / recovered man to do the same or even more?

          • seeker it would have been a one way trip but it still would have been THREE trips. if at 79 and feeling health had to make two trip to car for a total of FOUR as an ill man he would have made three. one in with a load, one out to get second load, and the walk back in to final resting place. IOHO we think he stuck with the original plan except for staying with TC. again heavy load we think is the TC and then its contents and high water is the fact you have to drink a lot of water. old western term meant to describe a good looking guy who is tall is TALL DRINK OF WATER or HIGH drink of WATER. but we could be BBQing crow at the end of aug and you will be welcome to come chew with us.

    • Oh! I know this! A human trail is made with human feet. A deer trail is made by deer feet. A road is made by bulldozers and cement trucks.

        • Game trails are great, BUT, if you are a novice outdoors, research your environment FIRST! Animals have the right of way. 🙂

          • He didn’t say it wasn’t near a trail. He said a human trail. What if there’s a trail called grasshopper trail or frog trail? Get it?

          • If it is hidden on a human trail it would not be near it… it would be on it… Right?

        • Humans use a road if machines made it. A road is not the same as a trail.

          Many trails humans now go were first made by deer, buffalo, elk, or whatever. So, if a buffalo was the first to make the trail, is it really a human trail?

          • Most roads were trails like a great deal of the sante fe trail. Looked up definition of trail and paved road was listed.

          • Human trail = made by human feet (or fine, machines) before used by animal feet.

            Not human trail = something other than human made trail first, to include aliens.

            🙂

          • Mindy and Tori

            I think the making of roads – does play apart in the chase.

            There were trails long before the roads. The very early roads where not made by machines at all but by people moving rocks – first the Indians and then pioneers moving west in wagons – and finally govt. entities.

            The making of early roads is very interesting and also there where toll roads to pay for them.

            They have named many things along the building of our country – but I am not aware of them naming any animal trails although I’m sure someone will tell me I’m wrong.

          • So let me say this – if it is listed on a topo map as a trail – it’s a human trail.

            If it is not listed- lets say it is not a trail. That works for me.

          • 1. a beaten path through rough country such as a forest or moor.
            2. a path or track made across a wild region, over rough country, or the like, by the passage of people or animals.
            3. a path through a forest, field, etc
            4. A marked or beaten path, as through woods or wilderness
            5. An overland route: the pioneers’ trail across the prairies.
            6. A mark, trace, course, or path left by a moving body. (as in hiking trail or game trail)

            I have to fully agree with Mindy on this. These are all of the NOUN definitions of “trail” from Dictionary.com, Merriam-Webster, and the Free Dictionary. I wouldn’t say I’m an expert on reading but I don’t see “road”, “paved”, or “street” in any of the above defined descriptions. I’d love if someone could show us some factual definition of a trail being a street. It would go a long way to putting that issue to sleep.

            And Mindy, you read my solution so maybe you know what his comment on the Street Smarts referred to 😉

          • Tori – I believe Forrest said, “it is not in very close ‘proximaty’ to a human trail.”

            IMO since proximaty is not actually a word, one could argue the validity of the statement.

          • Thanks 42. I was just thinking he might be giving a clue that the trail is called frog or something.

        • What is the most important thing he said here? IMO THIS.

          Do you follow Leave No Trace and did you while hiding the chest?

          “Leave no trace” is a rhetorical statement not intended to be taken literally.

          I think what he’s trying to say here is he is the one who left a trail behind. Just maybe not with beer cans.

          • Cat that would fit in nicely with scrapbook ninety-four which most of us believe Forrest was author.

            ‘There’s circumstantial evidence, I’ll be your guide in dream or trance,
            Through wiles of nature, circum-stance; you’ll tract a thread to golden ore’,
            Said Phantom perched upon the scale. ‘And have you trekked this secret trail?’
            Asked I, afraid the chase might fail, ‘Have you’ve been down this path before?’
            ‘Alone and bold I went by chance’. ‘Phantom!’ said I, ‘but that’s infernal’,
            And the moment seemed eternal… ‘How deeper then, should I explore?”
            Quoth the Phantom, ‘Four-two-four’.
            Merely this and nothing more.

          • I pulled sb 94 back out from from notes just last night to review, as I believe it is eluded to in the poem. Also, credit due to hothgar on this, the line…
            Begins where eagles nest..
            W. E. N
            Directional perhaps? I do believe that this sb holds all the info we need…imoimoimo..
            🙂

          • Hi lucky girl.
            I see you posted only part of the phantoms poe take off, is there a reason for that? I seem to be looking to hard at this because I just don’t feel the connection I believe I should, if that makes any sense.
            Good luck to you lucky girl. 🙂

  25. If there’s no human trail near by and it’s a secluded place, then you have to ask yourself why is this place special to Forrest. For what reason would he want to make this his final resting place? I think once we find those answers we will be one step closer to finding the prize.

    • “Special”can mean someplace where he proposed to Peggy or it can be a place where he and a beloved one were together for the last time. I don’t believe it has anything to do with a hidden fishing spot or someplace he had ventured as a child…all in my opinion. 🙂

  26. Seeker,
    Your analytical mind is a treasure in itself, however you are probably over complicating the poem. I spent a lot of time looking at patterns and typos and capital letters when I first got a hold of the book. This is not to say that someone who has a history of deciphering codes would be unable to find a code that I had missed. I am employing different tactics now, more closely aligned with Fenns instructions. I feel that the solve you put forward invokes too many tangents to get back to the search area you have arrived at. The mastery of the literary form of poetry combined with the anthropological history and a clever geographical description of a certain area does seem to be taking on a lot, even for Forrest. On top of that you appear to be alluding to but not actually divulging a secret message buried in the letter placement within the poem which produces a set of coordinates down to the second. I am doing some boots on the ground research this summer, I will check out your “garage” if you can convince me.

    • Blaze,

      I agree, “I feel that the solve you put forward invokes too many tangents to get back to the search area you have arrived at.”

      That is why we were warned from the get go The poem is “difficult but not impossible”

      I like that folks keep bring up faults to reevaluate this theory. But i do think the use of numbers to match the capital letters are non-code. As I said before we have been taught that each letter of the alphabet has numbers to match them A being the 1st letter, B being the second. Right or wrong, it seems to me this is not a assigned random number to fool a would be code breaker or should I say wood-bee.

      If i said, the end is every drawing nigh. and use those definitions of the words such as Boundary = end. Drawing = drainage. Nigh = west. Are they codes as well? That is a serious question.

      But as I said before… the capital letter usage is even a gray area for me as well… but not IMO code. as it is not used to fool the reader. Just common knowledge of numbers to letters.

        • EEC.

          Nope as the are always capitalized. You my say why use a capital letter at the end of a sentence and beginning of a line then? What i used is all the capitals in each [ beginning ] line simple because… if I worked on a poem to hand out clues… this would be one option. with that said, is it an actual clue? as it only give you “most” of the coordinates. The other come from hoB and the understanding to be below that area… so how to know what area? the other part of the structure of the poem lines, sentence, stanza and caps that should not truly be unless for a reason as Brown is.

          I don’t see the clues as everyone else, I think that is becoming obvious. I truly believe you need to understand the poem first then you find the answers to the clues. So is WWWH a true clue to me. yes and no it is need to be understood and line up with other parts of the poem. Is it the first clue? no it helps find the first clue.

          A clue can be derived from one or more hints in the poem. And no one can disagree there are many many hints. So ask, why so many?

          If you noticed i handed out some of this theory’s clues but not all, and I didn’t show how they are in consecutive order either. IF this theory is correct i’m not handing a Brilliant Ricky to anyone. But I did post it to start a conversation on new views, methods, and theories.

          I think so far it has worked well.

          Now you have me thinking of a line in the poem. ” So why is I must go?… hmmm i maybe off a few feet.

          I’m surprised no one has brought up fenns comment about folks getting the first two clues and walk past the other seven? and how it relates to this theory.

          I won’t answer that so don’t ask…

      • Seeker,
        I may have been off on a tangent myself, trying to explain what too difficult or complex means in relation to your specific solve. I personally got lost at the hoB you suggested but related to the Capitalization. I agree with Dal the I’s are very important….anyone have a count in TOTTC? As a matter of fact the poem is a code, or more specifically a treasure map. As in any treasure hunt the x is accurate only if you associate the rest of the reference points correctly. I feel there is one box and one solution to get to it. There is however an infinite amount of knowledge that could be used to help a searcher to that solution. Your solve has gotten me going so yeah, I like it, it’s good. Try “Clovis boy” for hoB maybe?

  27. If you’re enclined to follow the ice age in your poem travels, it’s worth discovering The Old North Trail which runs from the Bering Straight of Alaska through Canada’s arctic south to the Mexican deserts. Ten thousand years of moccasins & travois have blazed a time worn trail of the first peoples in North America. It can still be seen through Montana, Wyoming, and points south; running directly past the Madison River Buffalo jump down through the alluvial plane of the Madison Valley to Hebgen Lake. I would guess Forrest has spent many hours traveling it’s path of artifacts and history as he fished the Missouri and Madison Rivers.

  28. Seeker,
    You definately put a lot of thought. I especially like your interpretation of stanza one. Great job. Thank you for sharing!

  29. Seeker, I find it refreshing to see someone working the solve in a way similar to the way I have …with a few exceptions. Agreed you need a place to BEGIN. To me, the “Not Far”= 2 words, a and (B). “But to far to walk”= 5 words, a,b,c,d,(E)
    “Put in below the home of Brown” = 7 words, a,b,c,d,e,f,(G)…..and so on. It ends up spelling BEGIN. The odds of that are just to high to be a coincident. THAT (IMO) is clue 1 . Clue 2,3 and 4 is finding the latitude in degrees, minutes and seconds. Find clue 5 and you have the longitude. “Put in below the home of Brown” is clue #6. Now, follow the remaining sentences that have periods at the end. “I don’t have the book with me, but there should be another 3”. That makes 9 clues.
    What makes me SURE ? Well its not my deodorant, it is the fact that I used a UV flashlight (also called a Woods light) on the knot holes at my spot. The pine tar (think baseball and the way Forrest misspelled Babe Ruth candy bar) , or “tarry scan t” glowed like a hundred eyes. And 4 months later (yes I went in February)….I notice my error: “If UV been W-ISE”= With Eyes. And so, I have been w / eyes. BUT,…. “AND FOUND THE BLAZE”…..The eyes and the blaze could STILL be 2 separate locations. And I think they are. Months went by as I was sure the blaze were florescent rocks. Today I am thinking Pi. Like in Pi ne.
    AND…..MY CONCRETIONS TOOK 3RD PLACE ! Not bad for a word N.o.S.F.
    W- N- o -S – F. = W NoS F Olives= Pits Steep Hole Chase
    Now Yaw’ll, Think about that one! Oh ya…..”IT” and the key word “keep”. = KEEP IT, or Key Pit. By now, gotta get back to packing for Montana. KNOT………Well Knit Wit all you nit wits.

    • Seattle that’s a great story very similar to mine. I was certain too about that Woods lamp thing. It was darrrk, I kept turning around looking over my shoulder. Could’ve swore I was going to find something … nada.

      • You guys and your woods lamps thing I’m i’m just not seeing it personally think it has to be a fixed object and be there for years someone just walks up sees the blaze, understands it and then knows to search for the treasure otherwise ain’t no one going to find this. It’s bad enough in the day and you’re out monkeying around in the dark.

    • LOL

      Yep, starting to feel like a five course meal at the moment. What should I have for dessert? or is that desert?

      Maybe I’ll have pinion nuts, or is that pinyon… Their both the same, right? I mean, there.

      Why do I need this little fork when I have a large one already?

      Does anyone have a glass of waters?

      This meal is too confusing… Jenny want to go out for Pizza?
      Bears on me. I mean Beers.

        • lol, that was fast… I was wondering if someone would catch that. You win a shiny new one Doller gold coin. Just send me 29.99 for shipping and handling.

          I’m a bit embarrassed about my typing skills after reading my comment to others.

          I need to hire a proofreader.

  30. That all seems too deep to the point of boring.
    Anyone thinking poem could be relating to street names? That were prairie that Fenn loved now housing estates where money belongs?? Anyone???

    • Pg 26 of TTOTC…Forrest said he got valedictorian marks in Street Smarts 102. Why did he say that? Is it ambiguity again at play? 🙂

  31. Try reading the poem in a different format, like fenn was telling a story. Example:

    AS I HAVE GONE ALONE IN THERE, AND WITH MY TREASURE BOLD, I CAN KEEP MY SECRET WHERE
    Fenn: I went on this adventure by myself. I didn’t let anyone know where I was going or what I planned on doing once I got there. It was a very safe area in which to hide the chest, as there was very little human traffic and I could be certain no one would recognize me.

    AND HINT OF TREASURES NEW AND OLD
    Fenn: I will say this much, at one time there were ‘riches’ here, but they were replaced with a much more valuable mineral.

    ETC., ETC.

    I feel this is why Forrest said “Show it to your kids”. A story is easier to comprehend than riddles.

    But then again, this is only my perspective.

    • germanguy that is how we read the poem but with a little less added wording but not much. and we are going to take our grandson because of the trill and we need a pack mule. and as a 15 yr old he will be great in helping us carry thing and hope no mulishness. LOL

  32. Something that I see pretty often is people referring to “riches new and old” meaning memories of his childhood. Definition of riches:
    Riches, noun: material wealth.
    Riches only refers to actual objects, material wealth, and valuable possessions. In no way or definition can it refer to memories or anything intangible. While I know Forrest enjoys making up words, or in my opinion likes to come across as more simple than he is (“it’s not who you are, it’s who they think you are”-ff), if you read some of the books or papers he has written they could very easily have been written by a Ph.D. student or author. Forrest has also proven on several occasions that he his very precise with his use of words and knows the proper definitions of words.
    That being said, here is my interpretation: we know what is inside the chest, so “riches new and old” refers to the contents of the chest.
    Riches new: The gold coins, Eagles and Double Eagles, were first minted in 1849 but could be less than 100 years old.
    Riches old: Dragon bracelet, jade figures, gold animal fetishes, the oldest being around 2,000 years old.
    As I said before, by definition riches can never mean memories. It’s one thing to have imagination, but if we start making up definitions and meanings for words there are literally infinite interpretations for the poem. Forrest has shown he uses a dictionary, IMO knowing the definitions of the words in the poem is a good place to start.

    • All great seabee88,

      But what about synonyms? or even related words. Are you not limiting definition usage.
      What about ” There’ll be no paddle up your creek” just word definitions or can it be metaphors which is very common in literature.

      So, Riches of Knowledge is a no?
      Riches of happiness is no?

      Even fenn used in a Q&A answers word relation. If you don’t know the one I’m talking about i’ll find it for you.

      Poetry allows freedom in writing much more than grammar correct books and paper. IMO that is another reason fenn choose a poem over placing clues in the stories of the book.

    • seabee88

      Fenn has said that he would never give anyone an answer to any of the clues. Being that (and most people would probably agree) this stanza is one of the clues, why would he have shared with everyone what was in the chest in the very beginning of the Chase? No, IMO he is not referring the contents of the chest as being the ‘new and old’, but rather something outside the chest. Again, this is only my opinion.

      • I can respect that. Based on the definition of the word though, it can only refer to the contents of the chest. I also don’t believe there are any clues there, simply an introduction to the poem. “Begin” is where I begin. But that’s my opinion. If you don’t go by the strict definition of the word “riches” and you believe there is a clue in the first stanza, I can respect that.

      • I retract my statement germanguy. Based on your comment up above I could see “riches new and old” possibly referring to a mine or some other mineral. I think that could be viable. Once again, if you go by the definition of the word though, riches can not mean memories.

  33. Thanks Seeker

    Mr. Fenn has said the poem is straight-forward. For me that means that the words mean what they are telling us. I think it is all literal, no synonyms or related words are necessary. If you use a synonym of a synonym of a synonym, you can come to a completely different word. You could write a poem with an entirely different meaning just using the synonyms of words. That’s why I like sticking with the definitions of words.

    Riches of happiness, riches of knowledge. As I said, based on the definition these phrases don’t make any sense. If you said a wealth of knowledge, or a bounty of happiness, those are grammatically correct.

    I take “no paddle up your creek” as completely literal. A creek that is too shallow to paddle up.

    I’m drawing a blank on the Q&A you are referring too but I have been here for a couple years and watched and listened to all interviews multiple times. I would be interested to see the one you are thinking of.

    I definitely agree that poetry allows more freedom, and while Mr. Fenn has written a good poem, I don’t consider it poetry. For me it is just a set of directions that rhyme. He has given us a precise word map to the location of his treasure. He chose his words very carefully, and I believe that includes the definitions of them.

    • It took me a minute to realize why the phrases “riches of happiness” and “riches of knowledge” were bothering me. It’s because they are both nouns. You don’t use a noun to describe a noun, ever. It doesn’t make any sense.

      • ” I tend to use some words that aren’t in the dictionary, and others that are, I blend a little.”

        From the Preface of the book, TTOTC… By Forrest Fenn.

        Could you explain how this doesn’t give you pause to your thought?

        • Would you want the person that finds your treasure to admire the place where it rests? Andrew

          .
          Well Andrew, I’m not sure “admire” is the right word but if we twist it a little maybe we can make it work. The word means approval or high regard. So it works. I sure feel that way or I would not have hidden it there. I like the way you think Andrew. f

          Seabee88, This was the Q&A I was talking about. I hope this explains my point to my comments. In regards to Usage of words, and related words.

          • I think is just a case of different points of view Seeker. To me, both of these comments seem like great supporting evidence for my points. Making up words and blending words has nothing to do with the meanings of them. At some point someone made up all the words in the English language, but they made them to mean something. Fenn didn’t say he likes to take words and change what they mean. I think that Q&A is also a great example. The questioner used a word that Fenn didn’t consider correct and Fenn said is wasn’t the right word. As far as twisting it, Fenn didn’t twist it at all. He gave the exact definition of the word and said that it could work. I’m pretty sure what he meant was simply that was probably a better word to describe his feelings for the place where rests, such as reverence possibly. Like I said though, different points of view.

          • Seabee88,

            Yep, Agree to disagree. It has been a fun conversation though… No battle scares. That is always a good sign. lol.

  34. Hey Seeker, I keep getting a message from my wee gee board mouse pad this evening. It just says “Galacatomic Theory”. This is the theory that says our universe is nothing but a pimple on a mule’s butt……..

    OK I’m kidding about my wee gee board mouse pad…..it’s actually much smarter than that. But this guy makes yours and Iron Will’s solution look perfectly normal; boring even. He’s about to reveal his solution. I thought you would get a kick out of it. (go to the bottom of the page)

    http://galacatomic.com

    • HA, That is what I’m talking about… out of the box thinking just went to out of this World thinking. I bow to the Universal Minds of the Galacatomic World… and dropping the draws to show them the dark spot of the moon.

      Time for a Galactic sleep.

          • Yep that was the worst solve yet and I’ve heard some drunk men really get wild with the poem

          • Good Grief!………Well so much for the Galacatomic Theory; he stole the solution from some very old posted solutions, which is obvious if you’ve been around very long. The narrow gage railroads were a big hit back a few years ago.

            His computation of Fenn’s links statement is a complete joke:

            At least 66,000 links north of Sante Fe= link is railroad tie = ( 8 ft.). 8 x 66,000 = 528,000 = 100 miles.

            You would think he would do just a little bit of research before making a complete fool of himself.

            And as predicted the treasure is no longer there……..How many times have we heard this from arrogant egomaniacs that simply cannot be wrong.

  35. Seeker –

    I like your solve. To me it is as simple as “A,B,C, 1,2,3”. I honestly never made that connection before.

    I think every thing you offer up is plausible. As you have asked over and over, even begged for a valid dispute, I can find none. Plausible doesn’t mean correct though. The next step is to test it.

    Are you willing to test it?

    Scott W.

    • Scott,
      preciate it, { Oh seabee88 “preciate it” comes from the Urban Dictionary… I think it’s correct… lol… Just funnin with ya }

      I don’t know if you notice. But with most of the comments saying it was to complicated… I change the “Lining of letters to numbers to see if anyone notice in some of my comment. Just wondering if you did?

      I know that I’m not great at explaining my thought and ideas in writing, so I’ll attempt to explain that part better now and would like your thought.

      I don’t believe there is any part of the poem fenn didn’t deliberately place. Some say the first stanza is just and introduction. Other say the last two stanzas are just simple confirmation for the 9 clues that are only stanza 2, 3, and 4.

      Then fenn stated, that every word was deliberate… don’t mess with his poem… he worked on that poem… an Architect wrote the poem.

      So why would it be that the capital letters, not be just as important as all the words and the B in brown, They are not Proper in use. Why write 3 other stanzas if they are not important and take 15 years to do so.

      I see a lot of information in the poem, my challenge was to see if they were logically useful to a solve. I just have a very hard time to believe that a “difficult but not impossible” poem is just 10 lines. Following Fenn’s comments above.

      We all have had blinders on at one point or another with our solves… I’m taking my off once more to see all the poem.
      I don’t have the quote at the ready, but Fenn recently said. No on has considered an important aspect… { close enough for horseshoe} What the Heck our we missing?

      Testing is another subject. Thanks.

      • Seeker,
        You said,
        “I see a lot of information in the poem, my challenge was to see if they were logically useful to a solve. I just have a very hard time to believe that a “difficult but not impossible” poem is just 10 lines. Following Fenn’s comments above.”

        I think we all spend a lot of time wondering about this. Here’s a couple of thoughts;

        1) He said he thought of everything but how certain could he really be about how hard the clues would be to solve? After all, if no other person is involved he had no way to test this with a surrogate searcher. One way to increase difficultly would be to leave uncertainty about what the actual clues are by including “filler”. He could have just given a list of clues but by doing that he has focused us in on the key elements. So perhaps for added security he designs filler material that sounds similar enough to the real clues as to up the degree of difficulty. To state the obvious, not only do we have to decipher the clues we actually have to figure out what a clue is….very clever insurance that could change the level from difficult to “not impossible”.

        2) I think it’s hard to argue that those ten lines don’t hold the bulk of the clues (yes I know others disagree). WWWH, HOB, TFTW, meek, nigh, no paddle, look quickly down, a blaze…. These are all phrases that smack of directions or are just odd enough that they just about have to be clues as they would have no other context. Not saying that there aren’t hints elsewhere or taunts of a sort.

        3) He said he wasn’t playing any games and was being straightforward. We have a clear “Begin” and a clear “cease”….that’s pretty straightforward.

        4) This has been stated before but I continue to find it odd that “halt” and “walk” don’t really rhyme well and it can be argued that this breaks the cadence of the poem up where it is perfect everywhere else. He had 15 years to work that out for gods sake. It would seem logical that this was left on purpose. Why? Word or words that are key?

        Just my thoughts to continue the conversation.

        • I like the way you think Colo –

          IMO he did it for a reason – there is a name in there – if you play with it – that is very important.

      • Seeker,

        I actually did not notice you changed it. 🙂

        Complicated – what does that really mean? I think complicated is when you (as in the masses) have everything in their solve except for the poem.

        I agree with you that every stanza contains at least one clue. At least my solve works that way. Although my solve is completely different than yours, we both share one thing in common; we used the poem.

        The 44th parallel is a great correlation. I guess the question comes down to what is common knowledge. I have used all sorts of delineating lines in my solves. The Santa Fe Trail from Joseph C. Brown’s survey, 37th -(Krypton is one down from Bromine and sort of fits with marvel), 36.30 from the Missouri compromise, and 42. To me, all of those are common knowledge. I guess it just depends on how “average” you are.

        The capital letters make sense, and they go along with Fenn’s comment not to mess with the poem; very straight forward. Is it cryptology? Well, sort of, but not really in my opinion as it is a one-to-one relationship.

        So hear me all and listen good. Go back and read “as in the masses” above. Say it out loud and listen. Would that be considered a coded message? I don’t think so. Hidden? – In plain sight but not in plain sound.

        Scott W.

  36. Wow Seeker , Well Thought out . But why argue one’s logic ?
    Well Done, but what dose the stone age until now , have any thing to do with Fenn
    hiding the treasure. What to prove ,we threw rocks at each other for the sake of advancing towards modern weapons . Yes you have some very interesting points that also bare flowers of argumental logic and I must say they smell good to me.

    I see the poem in a similar light. I like the Archaeological take . As I also felt it to be in Layers. If I remember Right I posted the Poker Find, thanks a little back patting here. Back to the point. I just got back from a 4 day hike to recon some terrain. And I realized I felt I had over worked the poem . I thought “could he have placed it in front of our faces”… Of course he could have. Could he of layered it the way you are seeing it , of course he could have. It is never the question of any one persons logic that could find the chest. Every person has great points in the Chase, and when it is my turn to pay forward the smiles my kids have had in the Chase , I will do so with every door I open , every person I help change a tire , because if I stop and help , I may just see that Grizz me and Zack wanted to see and did in Yellow Stone when we Helped a Dr. From Africa and his Friend change their tire, and a few hours later saw that Grizz…

    I like your solve , but don’t I guess understand what the comments were about as far as looking for logical arguments. I guess you just need some more time in the mountains to unwind.
    We all want to find the Chest , and some of us just want to see it found already.
    Just because you feel your solve is better then all , Im still going , to a place where ” Heavy Loads and Water High ” meet , Mother Earth and Father Sky. Where rainbows meet and they are one. You see , my solve also is well thought out , well studied and well planned. My trip is also well planed. Will I come home with the chest … IDK … But Im going to try . This solve is based on history and Forrest Fenn. “Where warm waters halt , where the people group. But when a favor must be asked, the one to ask it, must be the one who is asking… ” From there it’s too far to walk , ” These are titles found by tilting the clues in each stanza and referring them to ” MY KEY” which is based off of one word in the poem that brought me to the point Im at now. Based on a hint. Only one word… But it is not one word..=)

    Seeker have fun … well done again . Awesome mind you have there…

    • MrD.

      The reason to post this theory was to provoke a different reading of the poem. Some got a little mad at me when I commented one day that the conversations were getting old [ I for got the exact words I use ].
      The reason I was looking for ” logical Arguments” as you said is just that… when someone puts up a thought or a theory and others comment with a thought that contradict that persons theory. Some of those folks get upset that another kicked a whole in it. I’m not like that, as the reason I even started to read the blogs and join in the chat… If another can find logical faults in my theory…They just helped me.

      Seabee88 just had a disagreement last night on this thread… We both use logical explanation in our debate and came out shaking hands. For me that was a good discuss. Did it help him? or Me? Well… we agreed to disagree this time, But maybe helped another.
      But allow me to correct you, I never stated; “Just because you feel your solve is better then all , Im still going , to a place where ” Heavy Loads and Water High ” meet , Mother Earth and Father Sky.” I never stated y solve was better the all.

      It maybe different the most. but even place my own “problems” with the posting… and again it was to provoke a debate.

      I’ll ask you this. If you’re going to post your solution for all to read. What is the purpose for doing so?
      if not to get logical feed back to help. Or is it just to get a pat on the back, and a ticker tape parade on how smart you are.

      Give me a good debate every time, is my answer to that question.

      You did give me some pause for thought in your comment, so thank you for that.

      • I only posted that comment , due to how I took the ways I felt you said it , sorry for that my friend. I also guess I like a debate , dose sound logic need it to expound a understanding? LOL I guess that would up for a debate… =)
        I’m sorry I don’t post my solves in a fashion of complete understanding here. I used to post some of them when I was with quick feet , and needed a place to let my brain out so to say. Now , with the way I look at it
        I can’t post my understanding. It seems straight down a path, under the terms of one condition of the poem . That I cannot say at this time. But , again it is only a opinion of mine and not all of them are based on a logical explanation of how I found this in the poem , except my inner kid came out to look for it also. I became flexible , and used my imagination . The flexibility through a lot of time reading and studying what I felt were the clues. To a point where in the Mountains I felt like it is impossible to find a pin in the rockies. Every tree is blazed out there , but only 1 is F’s . That is where my imagination had to take over. Weather we find it now (My Family) or not. We have had a blast looking for it as well as being in almost every national Forrest from NM to Montana. What a experience , and what a adventure we had. From Bears , to Mountain Lions on our trail. There’s not enough Gold in that Chest to replace those experiences or the smiles .

        Awesome Job again Seeker very well thought out. And very interesting . I would suggest one thing , If you go out there looking . Check out Cody Montana. Stay at the Imra and have fun at the Wild Bill Cody Museum. I think you may find some thing interesting on the walls in the Imra. You can’t find on line. Have fun … Take care my friend…
        And I also Learned something here, logic is not always a rough out come between minds… Thanks =)

        • Mr.D
          You said, I only posted that comment , due to how I took the ways I felt you said it , sorry for that my friend.

          I’ll take the blame on that as I know…. I have a gift for the Gab… but not so much for the Word.

          But now you got me very curious to you suggestions of places to visit. The museum is on my list already should I go. and thank for the head’s up on Imra. You mentioned “something interesting” I was wondering if that had words on it? or should i say possibly a type of title.

          Imra sounds very familiar now, and to something did see once a long time ago.

          • Thanks Seeker , I always seem to being a bit up front and it is not always a good thing.lol

            And , Yes in The Irma on a wall of animals… Theres a plaque missing there, but the persons name… Now that was what was interesting. To me it would seem we in all kinda know the trail. Its just how far dose it go , 550 feet or 55o miles so to say. Yea , you should go to Wild Bills , especially down stairs. The collection of books and original manuscripts will I think bring you to another level. I didn’t get in the library it was Saturday and They are not open on the week end ,plus you have to set a appointment to enter… Very interesting place… A blaze… ” A gun Fight”? I wonder sometimes….. But , funny my track is in the same direction just a different person … Funny. Have a good one Seeker… Keep up the good work…

  37. Seeker can you help me with a quote from fenn he said something to the effect of its not on the top of a mountain top but near it. I’ve looked all morning myself

  38. Seeker I want to commend you again for putting your solution out for dissection and taking on all comers. When you asked me to post it, I thought OK lets see what Seeker is made of, and into the shark tank you went. You’ve taken on all comers without getting upset and throwing a tantrum, and bowed to Universal Minds of the Galacatomic World who solved the poem in three hours. Just in case he’s wrong I would like to carry on with our, what is apparently, useless folly of discussing the poem.

    I think some have presented valid arguments to why your solution is too complicated; it basically boils down to opinion. When you say it can’t be that simple, that’s pretty much the end of the discussion. We “believe” differently and have to agree to disagree as you have said.

    One thing I haven’t seen discussed much, although alluded to, is the overall construct of the poem. Fenn has said the poem is perfect and created by an architect. In my opinion this means the poem’s solution is eloquent and smooth (for lack of a better word). What I mean is when the “key” or philosophy of the poem is found it will solve the entire poem. It will not be a mismatch of different methods. If converting the letters to numbers is the key then all of the poem will be converted to numbers. If the key is ancient history then all of the poem’s solution will be found in ancient history….etc.

    Again I appreciate you putting your solution out there. I have found the discussion and banter to be interesting and entertaining.

    • Sorry to butt in here Goofy, but I understood Fenn’s remark that a ‘word’ was ‘key’. And, that once uncovered would lead to a place (if found) that would unlock the locale (or some other useful information) of the treasure, but not necessarily being a ‘key’ to solving the poem.

      Fenn surely wouldn’t make it as easy as 123 in solving the poem. I’m sure that everyone can see that the poem is the embodiment of Fenn himself. Like his myriad of collectibles, they have no single purpose, like someone who collects baseball cards or match books. Instead, they are instinctive collections, having only meaning to the collector himself.

      This has always led me to believe that he would always be a creature of habit and think and act in ways that the normal person would not. This is what makes him unique in his own way.

      So in designing this poem I would not be looking for a ‘key’ to unlock some hidden ‘technique’, but rather look at his experiences and background for the answer. Obviously, this is just my perspective on it.

      • Hey Germanguy long time no see……..He said he didn’t write the poem an architect did and it is perfect. The poem was not normal procedure for him…..Which is why I think it’s elegant and straight forward as he said it was; not a mismatch of solving methods?

        All of you deep thinkers think a simple approach equates to easy, which is not the case. I can list all of his quotes if you like but you already know them. He has tried to tell us over and over the poem is straight forward, he wasn’t messing around, no subterfuge, people are over thinking it, no special knowledge, etc. etc. I simply believe what he said.

        Just my opinion.

        • “He has tried to tell us over and over the poem is straight forward, he wasn’t messing around, no subterfuge, people are over thinking it, no special knowledge, etc. etc. I simply believe what he said.” – goofy

          One should conclude that the poem would be pretty simple to solve if that were the case then shouldn’t it? That is if it were that straight forward. So what it is problem? Why do you think it hasn’t been found; or has it?

          • No Wolf, simple does not equate to easy……It’s interesting that you folks can’t understand that……..Fenn said it’s difficult but not impossible.

            Do you disbelieve what he has said about the poem, or have a different interpretation of what he said?

          • Goofy please read my posts on the blog nine clues. Tell me what you think.

          • “It’s interesting that you folks can’t understand that” -Goofy,
            I can always count on you to give me a good laugh. I rather enjoy your “simple” view of me and my depth and investment in this puzzle. Keep them coming…

          • Wolf you laughed and avoided my simple question. I’ll ask again.

            Do you disbelieve what he has said about the poem, or have a different interpretation of what he said?

          • Goofy I laughed because I asked you a question and you predictably made an assumption rather than answering it. I will refer you to my question first …

          • Wolf I thought I did answer your question. You asked: One should conclude that the poem would be pretty simple to solve if that were the case then shouldn’t it? That is if it were that straight forward.

            I answered: No Wolf, simple does not equate to easy……I’ll add; in my opinion.

            Now your turn: Do you disbelieve what he has said about the poem, or have a different interpretation of what he said?

          • “Straight forward”. I see no point in going back a forth over that statement, as the true meaning behind Fenn’s words, have always been by his meaning of words, which no one will ever understand.

        • Goofy and Wolf.

          Subterfuge, means simply, a clever act of deception? Right?

          Is the riddle, What is Black and white and red all over? [ understanding this works in the verbal sense and not so much the written ] .

          The person hears Black and white and assumes red is a color. But with a bit of thinking… Black and white are not true colors… so is red still a color as first thought?
          Or are we hearing what we think we hear because we confused our first thought that Black and white were colors. And we all know the word actually is “read”

          Would you both say this is Subterfuge?

          And if that is the case, would you say that, Treasures and Trove are not the same thing in meaning or even the same item?

          • Seeker looking up subterfuge Merriam Webster tells me:

            Subterfuge:
            1: deception by artifice or stratagem in order to conceal, escape, or evade
            2: a deceptive device or stratagem

            So I think the answer to your first question is yes that is one definition.
            I think the answer to your second question is yes; your example could be construed as subterfuge.

            I disagree with your last statement. I think treasure and trove can be used synonymously. Looking up treasure and trove I get:

            treasure:
            1a: wealth (as money, jewels, or precious metals) stored up or hoarded (2) :wealth of any kind or in any form :riches
            1b: a store of money in reserve
            2a: something of great worth or value; also
            2b: a person esteemed as rare or precious
            3: a collection of precious things

            trove:
            1: discovery, find
            2: a valuable collection :treasure; also :haul, collection

          • wolf someone better the Guinness world record book guys. and 911 for hubby and maybe the head Dr. for me.
            oh this is hard to type i think agree with goofy on this. i know the meaning are different but there is enough there to make to make them interchangeable. treasure and trove have always been used together. quick call the dr i am fading fast.

          • Seeker,
            You pose a very good question. I guess a better question is why does it matter?

            By definition that it is, since subterfuge is “deception by artifice or strategem in order to conceal, escape, or evade”

            Of course their could be subterfuge contained within subterfuge. Kind of like a double negative if you think about it. So one better read those subterfuge remarks carefully (wink, wink).

            I believe that the poem’s main strategy should use subterfuge by the simple definition as a basis of the architectural design of the poem. Mr. Fenn has never confirmed he didn’t use it in the poem.

            However I do not think that subterfuge is an appropriate word, mainly because it implies deception in a negative way.

            This is a puzzle or a riddle built by an architect thus it appears simple but there is a very subtle confidence building underlying meaning that confirms the true definition of the clue.

            The poem even hints alternative meanings and I think most know where that hint is. So is it appropriate to call it subterfuge just because it technically fits the definition. I think there is a better word – “stratagem”

            His twenty sick sheep joke is a perfect example; is that subterfuge or stratagem? Who cares as long as it is perceived as clever. Aren’t puzzles like this supposed to be tricky? The key is to ensure straight forward and clever coincide.

            Trove and treasure are different but often used interchangeably. Trove has a specific legal definition. IMO

            The Wolf

          • Wolf you wrote: Mr. Fenn has never confirmed he didn’t use it in the poem.

            Actually he did. On Jenny’s site Seeker asked:

            Other than the poem describing how to locate the Trove and one of its purposes to encourage people to get out of the house and away from electronics, is the poem designed to convey a deeper significance? Is there a subtle message you are sharing with the reader and hope they realize? ~ Seeker

            Fenn answered:

            No Seeker,
            The poem is straight forward with no subterfuge in sight. Someone in an email asked me if I didn’t know where the treasure was, and could have the answer to any clue in the poem, which would I choose. I think that question is so funny and it makes me wonder how Jenny’s readers might answer it.f

            What about my question did you forget me?

          • White is the presence of all colors.

            Black is the absence of all colors.

            But any kid will tell you they are both colors in their Crayola box.

          • Goofy,
            Ha! Open your eyes – that is the double negative I previously mentioned. You need to learn to listen more carefully or in this case read. Oh sorry Seeker, we are back to that black and white and “read” all over again. lol

            Goofy you are hilarious, I understand why your college professors had such a difficult time with you. You are the master of twisting words for your own purpose. You did not answer my questions. You only answered one. I wait.

          • Thanks Goofy and wolf.

            The example and questions was not for fun as much as and understanding or better a perspective. Not unlike the poem itself.

            Many like to use the Butterfly-flutterby line of thinking. Others uses sound a likes. And we all have seen the codes process E=Mc2=headpressures=owl=wise=blaze=shooting star yada yada.

            So in this theory presented ” I ” in meaning of knowledge of self as in Human // man kind could be consider Subterfuge as a deception? That is if it actually a correct assumption.

            And Wolf I agree that Subterfuge by definition means in a “negative way”, and more to my point… can the poem use alternate meanings, “blending of words” and usage of words “That aren’t in the dictionary” [ all Fenn’s words ] and not be subterfuge?

            The Negative aspect of the meaning of Subterfuge is important to the “deception” term I believe.

            This is one of those time I think the after the fact comments { although helpful 99% of time} can hinder.

            PS. Wolf maybe the Golf T analogy would have been more to your liking… LOL
            Ha. I kill me.

          • Seeker,
            I never like looking at things as purely black orwhite, 1s or 0s – it is the intent that matters. So to answer your question:

            ” ” I ” in meaning of knowledge of self as in Human // man kind could be consider Subterfuge as a deception? ”

            No – It is not deception if the cleverness of an architech is apparent and understood. Sometimes it is not obvious, but in the research and explanation it becomes clear. IMO

            I believe Mr. Fenn wouldn’t use subterfuge in the poem, because I don’t believe that is really him, but that doesn’t mean he can’t use cleverness.

  39. Seeker –

    I think singlehandedly you have sparked more interest in the chase along with a very interesting discussion and have moderated it beautifully. It’s what you intended to do and have done it. Thank you for a Great Job !

    Now – if you would just start in the right place……………… 🙂

    • psss, Where is that? Whisper low, promise it will be between just us.

      Thanks, into… Maybe I’ll get a day named after me. Any suggestions?
      [ did i just leave myself wide open with a large target on my back, holding a sign that says [ “Sucker” ]

      • Seeker –

        If your a sucker – then I’m a turkey. While hunting we found two turkey feathers – one for each of us. Ah – at first we thought they where eagle feathers – but no –
        just turkeys like us.

  40. Goofy,

    Thanks. I like what you stated: “Fenn has said the poem is perfect and created by an architect. In my opinion this means the poem’s solution is eloquent and smooth (for lack of a better word). What I mean is when the “key” or philosophy of the poem is found it will solve the entire poem. It will not be a mismatch of different methods.”

    I can agree more. This theory IMO does that in my eye, it has hints of Where we came from, When we came, Why we came to this land, and How it was done.

    Fenn’s collections and stories of them and involvements with so many organization that deal with all that, SB, Q&A’s etc. is what took me to think this way. But this is not the only theory i have… I have “simple” ones as well. The step by step method if you will. I can share a relatively, well thought out l one if ya like. { did I just hear a simultaneously moan from the search community? }

    Your right, It will be an interesting flow to the poem to say the least. And why Fenn may have said. you will ask your self… What took me so long?

    Now I have to get back to work on Fenn’s SB-124 challenge, and find out what he never told anyone else, ever. I think I have it narrowed down to a creek.

  41. Seeker- do you think the creek is overall black and white AND red? I bet if someone finds it they could write a book about it and sell it for tons of money…maybe borders would even give it it’s own shelf! What do you think?

  42. Repeat question for Goofy,
    I asked,”One should conclude that the poem would be pretty simple to solve if that were the case then shouldn’t it? That is if it were that straight forward. So what it is problem? Why do you think it hasn’t been found; or has it?” based on you remark:

    “No Wolf, simple does not equate to easy……It’s interesting that you folks can’t understand that……..Fenn said it’s difficult but not impossible.”

    My rhetorical question was inviting you to explain yourself since we all would love to hear your explanation of why over 100,000 searchers can’t get past clue two on a straight forward poem?

    Also, why do you continue to repeat Fenn quotes I have already have memorized and pre-answered in my response to Seeker?

    Since you confirmed Seeker’s “read all over” example is by technical definition subterfuge (which I assume we can extrapolate to include Fenn’s “twenty sick sheep” example) and can’t be used in the poem, I am really curious how you believe the poem can be straightforward, not simple and be difficult but can’t now include any traditional hallmarks of great archetectual treasure hunts and puzzles?

    Maybe if you include your interpretation of the poem’s use of “listen good” in your explanation to subterfuge it might help us “folks to understand.”

    So come on Goofy stop goofing around and just answer the question for once.

    • How you guys speak to one another is disgusting. It is a perfect example of what is wrong with the world. Wolf you accept the poem as art. You say it has multiple layers and concise thought in every word. This could include ciphers, twisted wording, and other coded references. Wolf you are right this is a huge possibility. Goofy you say its straightforward, complex in a certain simplicity, and done so in a way a kid may pick up on the solve with some thought. Well this is probably true as well. In so many words ff has said both. So perhaps the solve is simple and straight forward at face value giving very basic directions that take you to the general vicinity but when looked at deeper one finds that the poem gives more specific hints to everything around you. I’m not saying that this is the case but why not. There is no reason for grown adults to be so hateful. And yes you are being hateful and talking to people like they are too stupid to get it. Well guess what everyone of us who hasn’t found it we are all in the same boat.

      • NW,

        I normally would comment on this, But your word choice is extreme IMO. Disgusting and hateful?

        I understand your point, But I see to Bull Buffalo type personalities having a hard-headed debated. No name calling, Nothing mean or disrespectful even. If it was… I’m the guiltiest person on all the blogs.

        Discussions / debates of different opinion, Even if voiced loudly is still just a discussion…

        Waving flowers and sprinkling rose petal, with smiley faces.

        • NW,
          Seeker is correct, just an attempt to cut through BS and get to the point, in hopes that we all advance our knowledge of this challenging puzzle.

          My appolgies if it offended you and I have taken the dicussion offline with Seeker.

          Waving flowers and sprinkling rose petals, with smiley faces.

          • I’m not saying you need to go all hippie so don’t go jumping to conclusions. I’m saying learn to show some respect. And it’s not just you. I was just surprised by your tone.

          • NW –

            I really didn’t take what they said as being disrespectful. Just two guys having jawin and having fun with each other. 🙂

            This is not a tea party – it is a treasure hunt.

            PS (whispering) what they are talking about is not going to get them closer to the TC.

      • Natalie, some folk’s discussion looks like a debate at Berkley on the lawn amongst the flowers. Ours looks more like a hockey game.

        We’ve been having this discussion for years. Although we look at the poem differently both Wolf and Seeker have had some good ideas over the years; and Seeker has eviscerated my idea on more than one occasion; but it helped me look at the poem from a different perspective. It is interesting how differently folks look at the poem.

        Wolf is on a mystical voyage of self discovery dreaming up solutions using Jenny Kile’s sheep stories. When shown he is completely wrong he writes another five hundred words dancing around the facts and won’t answer a direct question.

        Seeker has more scientifically based solutions but what he sees as fact I see as fluff.

        To me the poem is more like a Rubik’s Cube. The solution is very simple; make all the colors match, but the task is very difficult.

        The cube only has 43,252,003,274,489,856,000 positions. That’s probably about the number of places in the Rockies the clues in the poem match. 🙂

        Fenn said we will wonder what took so long when it’s found. The cube can be solved in a maximum of 20 moves no matter how it starts out. It’s well DUH after the solution is known.

        As you will make note of; none of us have the chest. I can see Fenn grabbing his belly and actually rolling around on the floor laughing and pointing at the computer screen after reading our comments; saying these idiot geniuses don’t have a chance of finding the chest.

        • Mystical Voyage – I like that!
          Hey Goofy if this search is a Rubics Cube and you have chocked up 200 tries to date. That leaves only 43,252,003,274,489,855,800 more tries to go and you will have it all covered!!!

          But hey did you know they have this book (or a key) out there that will allow you to solve it in under 20 moves?

          Time is precious and I personally don’t have enough of it to exhaust all possible combinations; so I elected to use the book, if you know what I mean. 😉

        • Funny you should mention Rubik’s cube Goofy. That’s exactly what I picture when reading and thinking about the discussion on whether the poem and the solve is simple, complex, complicated, straightforward, etc. We probably could get the same debate going about Rubiks cube arguing about the same issues and the views would be just as adamant and forceful as the debate on the poem. It is easy to see that having such a discussion about the cube obviously wouldn’t change or enhance the probability of reproducing a solution and it probably doesn’t do much to get us closer to the solve in the chase either. The discussion is interesting anyway, and I have enjoyed the banter back and forth. I’ve learned A LOT about human nature from this blog and I am sometimes amazed, sometimes amused, sometimes impressed, and sometimes even disturbed about the way we big brained mammals “think”.

          • I agree Raven; it is interesting how folks look at the poem. To me there are no hidden meanings, no cosmic revelations, no subterfuge, Fenn is not trying to steal someone’s soul or lead them on a journey to God. He has said so many times but people ignore what he has actually said about the poem. Out of frustration at the daunting task of finding it searchers go off on delusions of grandeur and mysticism even to the point of seeing solutions in another bloggers sheep stories.

            I’m not saying Fenn doesn’t have something he is trying to say or share with us. Fenn knows the libraries are full of books by many, many great men attempting to share their hard earned wisdom and experience with us, but nobody cares and the books sit there gathering dust. So he hid a chest of gold to get everyone’s attention. Imagine this site with exactly the same information about Fenn and his stories, videos, comments, etc. only without the treasure chest. I wonder how many hits we would get a day; 10, 20, maybe 50 hits on a busy day. Add the chest of gold and we count hits by thousands per hour on a busy day. A sad statement about our society but that’s the way it is.

            I can imagine the archeologist of the future that actually finds the chest and Fenn’s biography. Perhaps his research will turn up a millennia old archive of this website. His paper will discuss how we used the archaic method of communication called the World Wide Web; and how our world was burning down around us and we were fiddling around looking for a chest of gold we would never find.

        • Well as long as you all feel like what you do is productive, but I’ll tell ya it hardly seems that way. I’d like to hear each of your original ideas to see how far you guys have come that today your interpretations are so complex that one has to reread most of your thoughts over and over like ffs poem to try to understand how you have reached your current tangent. I’m serious years ago what was your initial thought? Have you switched locations frequently? And if so did someone else change your mind? What did they say specifically that clicked with you? Anybody else sharing for a while feel free to answer as well. What have you learned from other people?

          • Natalie,
            You can read my initial search here http://dalneitzel.com/2013/06/22/our-first-search-part-fou/ and follow my six other stories as I prepare to release my final story.

            That was my initial take, I have the philosophy of: park the ego, be flexible, this is not my poem/puzzle and that I must learn what the clues mean.

            During my quest I try my best to honour this theme and only by finding the author, that I may be successful in solving the puzzle.

            If my tone comes across strong at times it is because I feel all searchers should also be entitled to use their imagination to explore other options without being chastized.

            The Wolf

          • Natalie –

            Are you having a bad day? (:

            I have moved my original spot of three years ago – 500 feet.

            Did anyone here change my mind – NO.

            I have learned more from other people, including you and truly appreciate it.

          • No into lol. I’m fine. I just take up for people when I think someone is treating them like they r stupid. But I’m good 🙂 I just read wolfs first which was pretty interesting

          • Well Natalie I don’t have the chest so I don’t know if I’m any closer today than I was the first time I read the poem.

            Back in the beginning we didn’t have a lot to go on. Many people thought it was in Santa Fe proper or just on the outskirts of town. So lots of folks were wandering the streets of Santa Fe looking for the treasure. I can hear Fenn now……GOOD GAWD! What is it about NORTH OF SANTA FE that’s so hard to understand?

            I’ve learned a tremendous amount from the other searchers. Lots of great ideas have been tossed around. With very close to a hundred thousand comments here it’s hard to pinpoint any one comment that changed my mind on things. I’ve laughed at ideas when I first heard them; then go back and give them serious consideration a couple months later.

            There are some very smart people here; we bang heads some but that’s how some of the best ideas get flushed out. If we didn’t slap our ideas around this would be nothing but a cheer leading squad making a lot of noise and a complete waste of time.

            You asked if I switched locations frequently; the answer is yes, I’ve been wrong in all the states where the treasure might be…….I haven’t made it to Philadelphia yet. 🙂 I have work in the Rockies so my situation is probably a little different than most. I never know where I’m going to be and sometimes have zero lead time; but that has forced me to look at other ideas and consider other places to search.

            The chase, like the Rockies, will humble you. Most have fallen by the wayside but there’s a few that will never quit. I have great respect for those that keep trying even if we disagree and aggravate each other.

            I don’t know how many times I’ve stood on a wind blown canyon rim thinking to myself, “Hoss maybe you should consider that you’re just not smart enough to figure this thing out.” Then I just laugh and keep on looking.

  43. Aww, come on boys, lets you and him fight. Maybe someone will accidently reveal a deep thought, an original observation, a clever connection.

    I’d like to hear your thoughts on how the poem is architected. Architects build 3-dimentional structures by stacking 2 dimensional layers of blueprints. There is a register key that locks them together vertically…. otherwise the plumbers pipes might run right across the elevator shaft.

    Each layer has symbols & language of the trades used on that floor. Maybe the elevator buttons will say: GeologyFloor, History Floor, Mathematics Floor, Philosophy Floor, Personal Story Floor? Simple and complex… and when it is all together in its 3 dimensions, you will “know it for the first time”.

    • OS,
      I almost let it all out considering Seeker has done such a nice job of getting everyone refocussed, but I have wisely reconsidered for this is not the time or place considering the emotional sensitities.

      However, I believe your analogy is spot on in my opinion. Give me a couple more weeks, just putting on the final coat of paint; if you know what I mean.

  44. Wolf, I’m looking forward to it. It is really exciting to see how people build their houses. Everyone is so unique in their I-ness. Must make FF proud too.

    • OS,
      I really like the way you think and I enjoy reading your posts and I agree it is interesting to see everyone’s creation. However, I warn the house I finally ended up building was Fenn’s house – not mine. 😉
      Cheers,

  45. well, well, well…..Seeker, The Wolf, and Goofy dancing again! Just like old times and a pleasure to see!!

    NW, Goofy is quite correct, they have the kid gloves on in this little sparring match…..if you only knew. LOL!!

    Seeker, thanks for the nod that my ramblings in the past may have given you pause for thought. I’m going to throw something at you here that will allow you to assess your theory……but you’re going to have to work for it.
    ……………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………..
    ->April 2, 2013 – – – Jennifer London interview….. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ipvIGaVt7C8 : At about 10:47 she asks, “Who’s Brown”……FF replies, “if I told you that you’d go right to the chest”!

    ->Question posted 7/2/2014…… http://mysteriouswritings.com/questions-with-forrest/ :
    Do you think that someone who is sure about the location of the home of Brown could reverse-engineer where warm waters halt? ~Ben Raylor……..

    Thanks for the question Ben.
    If you are sure about the location of home of Brown why are you concerned about where warm waters halt?…. But to answer your question, sure you could ……………f
    ………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………
    Seeker, above you will find unimpeachable statements by Fenn. His words will allow you to disprove your theory. (if you believe he was being truthful in each instance, and I do).

    While I am certain that no one will find the chest without solving the Poem completely themselves, Forrest has given searchers something huge with his answers in these two instances.

    “if I told you that you’d go right to the chest” and “If you are sure about the location of home of Brown why are you concerned about where warm waters halt? “ – – – There is nothing ambiguous about Fenn’s answers. There is nothing left open for interpretation. If he gave you the HOB, you could go right to the chest.

    -This can only mean that having identified the correct HOB would allow you to immediately understand the remaining lines.-
    You would understand stanza 3 and proceed directly to the Blaze. You would understand what/where the Blaze is…..there would be no searching for it. – – ->A nod to the BOG camp….it is possible that you must actually be at the location of the Blaze, and/or the HOB, in order to understand the remaining lines and proceed accordingly.

    But, there is no mistaking that you would know immediately how, and where, to proceed “right to the chest”!

    Also, and just as importantly, in the second instance he is saying there is nothing within the first 7 lines that is needed to proceed to the chest…..if you have the correct HOB.

    The first 7 lines are used to get you to HOB only.

    So, Seeker, you can use Forrest’s own words to understand what part of your theory is disproven. And why, without that part, your theory as a whole is incorrect. 🙂

    Yeah, Wolfie, I know you are going to try and tear this apart!! (dang, I miss the old days) 🙂 But remember, you are not arguing with me……..these are Fenn’s own words.

    As Seeker said……………”food for thought”………………………….loco

    • Actually my Crazy Cousin my respect for your analysis has grown over the past year.

      I will say this: “if I told you that you’d go right to the chest” – I read it in context of the whole interview and more specifically the exchange before and after that comment. I have my own take on it, but I do conceed it is something that needs to be considered. Do you remember what Joan’s specific question was that sparked that response? The answer might surprise many…

      Grouping all of Fenn’ factual statements (while maintaining contextual relavance with the open eye for a crafty hints) can form a powerful screening tool, of which I like.

      You are correct, all his statements must be accounted for in the end but remember he also said not all is what it seems.

      Just like old times – welcome back Loco!
      The Wolf

      • The Wolf ( 🙂 ):

        That’s why I posted a link.
        Jennifer states “there are references to Brown’s….house. Then she asks, “who’s Brown?”…(Forrest dodges the question)…so she asks again, “who’s Brown?”

        I didn’t “group” all of Fenn’s statements (quit dancing 🙂 ). I referenced two instance where he addressed a specific subject related to the Poem. The only two, I am aware of, that he speaks of HOB.

        I am merely drilling down on his responses in these instances. Agreed, not all is what it seems, at times, with Fenn’s statements.

        But, as I said, there is no ambiguity in either of those statements. In the interview, she blindsided him. He did not have time to formulate an answer. So he gave a simple straightforward answer. He could have declined to answer (as he has done other question), but he did not…..
        He basically gives the same answer in his reply to the question at Jenny’s…….”If you are sure about the location of home of Brown why are you concerned about where warm waters halt?” (If you know where HOB is, you don’t need WWWH)……And he had plenty of time to formulate that answer. And he could have chosen not to answer that question at all!!

        loco

        • That response makes a lot of sense . if you know the end you don’t need clues for the beginning. What’s the point of giving directions in relation to other things if you already know where you are going.

        • I think what he says tells you something important. And if someone gets what I am saying please reword it bc im afraid I don’t know how to summarize what I get from it very well.

          If you are so sure of where the HOB is why are you concerned with WWWH?

          If you are looking for a cave below the home of Brown
          If you are looking for a waterfall below the home of Brown
          If you are looking for a road below the home of Brown
          etc etc etc

          Ill use the cave as an example just for argument sake

          If I know where the Home of Brown is there could easily be maybe 10, 20, 100 caves in that area. Some people may know and many others people do not know.

          This can be said for almost every other landmark depending on the area you are focused on

          And if there were 5 caves then where warm waters halt would be very necessary because following every other clue you would want to target those caves that the previous directions or clues led you to sequentially.

          But if FF says that if one knew where hob is it is of no consequence where wwh is then one can make a logical conclusion that whatever it is that marks the place we are looking for below the home of brown…well there are not multiples to which you need to put in relation to the earlier clues likely there is one that would be greatly more significant immediately upon knowing hob.

          Please tell me someone follows what I am saying

          I think there are many people that would say well the blaze is directly beneath hob. I believe most of us think that there is some distance. Because otherwise FF could have said look down or below the home of brown and your quest will cease. Adding more would be pointless. And due to that most of us can say somewhere along our search that what we were looking for below the home of brown came in great numbers and we needed the Blaze in order to differentiate it from others.
          I believe that FF may be saying he is confident that one needs to identify wwwh in relation to the following clues to even have a chance of being confident in hob. Because once one knows what hob is the following landmark or area that leads you to the area of your blaze will be obvious though the blaze may not.

    • Loco,
      First, as always good thought and fact searching.

      I agree with all you said… But just for Shoots and ladders. [ Goofy won’t let me say it like i normally do ]

      I could argue that when presented the question on hoB. Fenn could ave responded the same to any part of the poem. [ which canyon down? ] to blow off the reporters unwanted questioning about any clue that is a must to have… not a hint but a clue.

      And just using stanza 1 & 2. In this theory it places you at the CD In MT. a relatively small area compared to the now know location area of the chest [ I say location area as search area may imply all the clues are in the same area… regardless of any theory / solve… we do not know for sure all the clues are in the highlighted area of the map. ] so “IF'” this theory is correct… adding the 45th P. nearly drops you on top of the trove. So unless the chest is where hoB is exactly a 10′ x 10″

      But as you said, It’s hard to argue words with fenn.

      Reverse engineering is use to understand what you don’t know on how or why? with that said. there should be no reason to work backwards when forwards is your goal.

      But I believe the same as you… the theory has holes and maybe needs fine tuning or used for target practice. That doesn’t make me feel bad… Just makes me thinking even more.

      Like I said I “could” argue those point… but i won’t.

      • seeker, seeker, seeker. You been hanging with Wolf too long. 🙂

        Yes, Fenn could have declined to answer the question from Jennifer London…But he didn’t, that’s the point! And he gives a totally non-evasive answer. Simple and to the point.

        And, he, himself, chose that question to answer on Jenny’s site! And basically says if you know HOB, you don’t need WWWH (and certainly not anything that lead you to HOB).

        My point is, yes “we”, as searchers, know that HOB is a must have clue in order for us to solve the Poem.

        But, Forrest is saying that if he were to give us the HOB, we would not need anything in the Poem, up to that point, in order to go right to the chest.

        If Forrest gave you your HOB, he is saying there is nothing, in the first 7 lines, that you will need in order to proceed to the chest!

        Hold your HOB up to the light as if Fenn had given it to you. Now remove, from your theory, anything you have used the first seven lines for that aid you for anything past HOB.

        So, by that logic, your using anything in those seven lines makes your theory null & void!

        Good Luck to Ya, guy!!………….loco

        • Loco,

          I agreed, agreed, agreed with you… but just because I agree doesn’t mean I can’t argue with some logical response.

          You just said: “If Forrest gave you your HOB, he is saying there is nothing, in the first 7 lines, that you will need in order to proceed to the chest!”

          That is also what a said… just in my own words. No reason to reverse engineer any clue.. Actually why would you? IF hoB is the 3rd or even the 8th clues and your proof positive, why would you need or want to go back to the start of clue 1.

          Now what about fenn’s comment some got the first two clues but went by the other seven…

          and it seems they didn’t know or understand the significance of where they were . [ you know the full quote as well as i do. because we both do our home work ].

          So this raises a question in my mind< as we both agree at hoB don't go backwards.

          is it "possible" that the first two clues are needed to be know so you can go on from hoB … Correctly?

          Or were those searcher just lucky to be in the right place, but had absolutely no idea they were?

          Those comments[ first two clues] and the hoB [ reporters question] comment just don't seem to jive. when i really think about it… what say you?

          I think you may also remember fenn making a comment [ personally i think he was just having fun with his answer… But]

          [paraphrasing ] …when someone ask a question i give them one because they asked and are expecting one….

          That was along time ago and No i don't have the exact quote. i think it's in Tobys first video.

          This is why I personally don't like after the fact comment, and use them to work and/or confirm anything.
          And just attempt to use the one direction fenn stated, The poem contains nine clue…. If followed precisely….

          • 🙂 seeker
            OK, I will address your concerns. But I highly doubt that you will give anything I put forward any serious consideration before you start formulating a reply and/or questions, in an attempt to divert from the original points of discussion.

            As I stated at the beginning of my initial post to you: I am fully aware that we, as searchers, must identify and interpret the nine clues within the Poem. That is the only way “we” can go to the chest. We must first solve WWWH, and then proceed to below hoB….There is no other way.

            The reverse-engineering aspect of Fenn’s reply is important only because he also said, “why would you?” He could just have said, “yes, you can reverse-engineer back to WWWH”, and stopped there. By him saying “why would you?”…. that eliminates the possibility there is information in the first seven lines you might possibly need further into the Poem! —(and that answers your question above: is it “possible” that the first two clues are needed to be known so you can go on from hoB … Correctly?…the answer is NO!!)

            And yes, I remember that Fenn has said a question deserves an answer. And, he definitely has fun with some of his answers…..But, he doesn’t lie. Again, he could have declined to answer either of those questions, but he didn’t. There is no ambiguity in either of his answers. So, unless you think he was lying, he said: (1) If you have the correct hoB, you will go right to the chest, and (2) there is nothing preceding line 8 that is required further in the Poem.

            We, as searchers, must have the first two clues(or 3) solved in order to proceed to hoB! …..you asked: “Those comments[ first two clues] and the hoB [ reporters question] comment just don’t seem to jive. when i really think about it… what say you?” —-makes perfect sense to me: the searchers did not know they had solved the first two clues, so there is no way in heck they would recognize any further clues. (apparently, as far as they were concerned, they felt they had not solved them). Now, how, or why, they wound up where they did is anybody’s guess
            .
            You can talk all around how Fenn “might” have answered the hoB questions, or why he did …..But the important things are: he did answer, truthfully it appears, and what the implications of those answers are!!!

            If you don’t like after-the-fact comments, why worry about the “2 clues solved” comment? And why in your initial post, did you base 4 out of 5 of your stated “problems” on after-the-fact comments?? 🙂

            (start numbering your questions. Makes them easier to identify and respond to) 🙂

            I’m thinking that anybody, not just you, who has used anything from lines 1 thru 7, to derive a solution to something past stanza 2, is quite probably wrong. Doesn’t matter what methodology was used.

            I will stand by these assertions until forrestfire, himself, weighs in and says, “loco….you are crazy!!” LOL!! 🙂

            Good Luck to Ya………loco 🙂

          • Totally agree with everything you said Loco – very logical conclusions and interpretations of Forrest’s remarks. The thing I disagree with in Forrest’s response to the questions is his saying that you could go right to the treasure from the HOB. It just seems to me that we would still have to understand what he means by the “blaze” and “look quickly down”. Maybe because it was a live interview, he was just making a humorous quick response because he had to say something.

          • @ Goofy: 🙂 🙂

            Thanks for letting me play with seeker! Dunno where Wolf went…..mebbee he’s chipping paint? 🙂

          • Loco as always, you use common sense in your rebuttals… and yep. I get what your say. Find what ever information / clues that get you to hoB and they are no longer needed to continue ones you know / at hoB.

            I agree, with your thoughts. But we are talking about “after the fact comment” of 4 plus years and most like to use them not just as confirmation or help to see if their solve maybe perfect.
            And others use them or seem to use them as necessary facts to solve the poem. and lets face it… almost ever comment utilizes them in one form or another.

            So as I stated … for shyts and grin! how about this or that… and what do you think… Nothing here is concrete and everyone attempts to utilize any information that fenn offers.

            I have always said that i don’t like after the fact statements personally. For the simple line of thinking is. Scenario: Fenn write a poem with clues, writes the book, hide the chest, gets hits by that that proverbial bus, on his way home. And that is all we know. Factually… that Is all we know.

            This is “only” the true way I can see the poem in its original challenge… every thing else for me { personally} is Fluffernutter

            But do me a personal favor if ya will… and this is not directed just at you but the statement itself.

            I hate it when someone wants to get there own, personal view across by say…” So, unless you think he was lying, ”

            You know in all the time we have chatted, post, commented, etc. Never did i say or even indicate such… and not necessary to use.

            Again that is not, just directed at you. I just chose this time to voice it.

          • Dang, seeker, I sincerely apologize to you! That term was not directly at you.
            (I had totally forgotten that we had discussed that subject in the past….my bad). 🙂 🙂

            I totally agree with you about after-the-fact comments. I do not consider them when working on the Poem, either. Your right, the Poem and the book is that is needed, the rest is just a distraction when working on a solution.

            His comments about hoB contain nothing that will aid a searcher in determining what/where hoB is.

            again, Seeker, I apologize…..please don’t “nuke” me!! 🙂

          • Oh Boy Seeker has a nuke Button too!!!

            I really can’t keep up with y’all…:)

          • @CJ:

            Thanks for the response. 🙂

            I wrote this in the original post – – ->A nod to the BOG camp….it is possible that you must actually be at the location of the Blaze, and/or the HOB, in order to understand the remaining lines and proceed accordingly.

            So. yes while I think Fenn is saying you can go directly to chest, I think you will still have to identify remaining clues…..I just think he is saying it will be much easier to recognize them once you have and/or at “below the hoB”.

            Now, I’m going to use this post to attempt and explain my rationale behind this.

            Fenn’s first comment on the subject was in the interview on April 2, 2013. There he said, “if I told you that you’d go right to the chest”! -OK, I didn’t think much of it at the time. Sure, you go to the chest after you solve the rest of the Poem.

            Then, on July 2, 2014 he says,”If you are sure about the location of home of Brown why are you concerned about where warm waters halt? But to answer your question, sure you could and a few searchers might throw in some gas money for a percentage of the take.” -When I read that, I thought, “OK, sounds like a possibility that there is nothing, prior to line 8, that you need to solve the rest of the Poem.” (I just made a mental note to keep that in mind when working on the Poem).

            But, the two comments kept nagging at me. Finally, a couple of months ago, I sat down and devote my full attention to both and took them apart.
            …………………………..

            The interview:

            I watched it several times. He avoided the question initially, before answering it the way he did. He could have even told her he didn’t want to answer it (he has done so in the past). But, I think, he realized he could give the answer he did, without giving any information that would aid in solving the Poem. For myself, I also had to consider whether or not he was being truthful. He may be ambiguous some of the time(:)), but I don’t think he would give an untruthful answer.

            So, I decided to accept it at face value, and as truthful.

            Next, what did he mean by “right to the chest”? We all know that if you solve the clues, you go to the chest. Prior to this he had said some had gotten two clues correct, but didn’t know it. Also some had been within a given distance of the chest. I had always wondered how that was possible?

            Then I realized it. He could say “right to the chest” because hoB is what it takes to recognize that you are on the correct route and, that once that is recognized, the other clues are more easily interpreted and recognized!! We(searchers) will have to solve the clues(and know we did), preceding hoB, in order to recognize hoB. “If” Forrest were to give us hoB, he knows we could proceed confidently, thru the remaining clues, “right to the chest”!!!!
            …………………………

            The Answer @ Jenny’s:

            ”If you are sure about the location of home of Brown why are you concerned about where warm waters halt? But to answer your question, sure you could and a few searchers might throw in some gas money for a percentage of the take.”

            He definitely didn’t have to answer the question. Jenny has made it quite clear she submits the questions to Forrest and he chooses which to answer.

            And again, was he ambiguous??….NO! Was he truthful?…..I believe so!

            So next, what does it mean.

            As searchers we know that hoB is next in the sequence of clues and that we would already have solved WWWH. So why tell us “no need to reverse-engineer”?

            For Forrest to truthfully say, “why are you concerned about where warm waters halt?” can only mean one thing: You don’t need anything from the first 7 lines for use later on.
            If you have the correct hoB, whether you guessed it or he gave it to you, the first 7 lines may as well not be there!
            And, humorously, his remark “a few searchers might throw in some gas money for a percentage of the take.”, confirms this. If you have HoB, you are at the point you can proceed confidently to the chest!
            …………………..
            Summary: So taken separately, and together, these two statements that address one subject, tell me: -Forrest makes these statements because there is nothing within them that will aid us, as searchers, in solving any clue, hoB or otherwise. -There is nothing in lines 1 thru 7 that is required to solve any of the Poem past line 8.

            –Although, as searchers, we will need to solve the Poem in order to get to hoB, we will be able to proceed confidently from there(hoB) to the chest….(and, I’m betting, in a fairly rapid manner. :))

            *It is entirely possible that one will have to on location at either hoB, and/or the Blaze, in order to recognize the next route to be taken.* (and, maybe not!! 🙂 )

            Gawd, I hate typing and trying to put thoughts on paper. The Wolf is much better at this. I hope this is all as clear as mud, and that you don’t go to sleep and fall out of the chair!! 🙂

            Later………………….loco

          • spallies,

            Be afraid, be very afraid… lol

            Not to worry, no one would be crazy enough to give me such power of authority… as the saying goes, It would right to my hips – or something like that.

            —————————————————–.

            And a quick reply to loco. Thanks, I know you did not mean it that way. And sorry for using you to put my pet-peeve out there.

            When folks talk about comments fenn say and disagree… someone makes that statement as if saying.

            Well if you don’t believe in my “opinion” of what fenn comment means, Then you must be calling fenn a lair. For me It a clever, but condescending way of making one’s “opinion” to be correct or even factual. Especially when no comment was ever made about truth or not.

            So thanks again loco. I should have pick my timing better.

            psss. Goofy, If you go on vacations, I can fill in dusting off the little red button… Just food for thought.

    • locolobo how did you guess part of our solve? that what we have in our solve WWWH is a starting place but is not needed if you have the right hoB. we are either real luck, REALLY wrong, or just plain smart. we have three hoB and they all over lap. i am climbing the walls waiting till hubbys arm is well enough to go. he has PT tomorrow again and see surgeon to see when he can travel. i have planned this trip to the point of BOREDOM!!!!!!!! i am as bored as an 24 x 24 board heading for the cliff. i have never been good at WAITING. sheech

  46. He said there are 3 or 4 clues in the first stanza. That only leaves a couple to get to 9. So seems plausible that the chest is at hoB

    • tori,

      He never said that about the first stanza.

      In the interview, he said, “that sounds like three or four to me”. And that was in response to a statement by someone else.

      As Wolf said, you have to listen to the interview in order to understand the context in which the statement was made.

      I could provide a link, but if you are going to make statements attributed to FF, you need to do your research beforehand……not being mean 🙂 !

      Good Luck to You

      • Don’t need a link. I’m the one mentioning he said that silly lol. If you know hoB you’d go right to it. Seems that means there will be no doubt. Of course if you are following directions and you are going into the Molly Brown basement…of course you’d go right to it.

        I believe he also said if you we’re within 12 feet you would find It too.

    • Didn’t he say 3 or 4 in the second stanza and 2 or 3 in the third? If I read it correct, there are 9 clues that offer direction regarding where to go to find the chest, but there may also be “hints” that offer details about specific areas. (Like cold, wood etc.) But that’s just what I see. But I haven’t found it yet either.

      • yes you are headed in the right direction. directions. I have spent all my time studying how to give directions. And full of people don’t get why but I am convinced we are given some pretty basic directions with one final trick the blaze. And if you are not familiar with this blaze you may walk right up pass the treasure not even knowing.

    • 🙂 🙂 I remember now why I stopped posting!! 🙂 🙂

      Good Luck to Ya’ll ………………………loco

  47. Hi S, You seem to have some interesting angles on this puzzler… but I rather suspect that while Forrest has been an ace at hiding his treasure, it might come down to his straightforward brilliant cleverness at outwitting us (as far as we yet know) rather than a technically complex series of measurements; i.e., he might simply have tossed “it” into a ditch along the way, not just any ditch, actually quite a special ditch……….or not, of course.
    Offering: A picture’s worth a thousand words. Bye for now….

  48. this is what I think – about over thinking the poem – I have heard people say and even I have said it – go down to the store and buy bread – I don’t mean under the store – and I don’t mean east – west – north – or south – all I mean is go to the store and buy bread you have to figure out which way to go

  49. Jennifer asked : “Who’s Brown”……FF replies, “If I told you that you’d go right to the chest”!

    IMO.
    So from WWWH and down the canyon about 10 miles, NFBTFTW, is the HOB.
    Then from the home of Brown you would look for a creek that is below it, then go up this very difficult and scary creek until you find heavy loads and water high (approx. 1-1/2 miles.) But, if you’ve been wise you would have gone up the road that parallels the creek. Then you will find the blaze in between the road and creek.

    So to find the chest from the HOB that Forrest told you, it must be a well known place, or he must have given you a detailed description of the place and directions to find it. I believe what he meant is it’s a well known place.

    About- take it in the canyon down- Canyons can run in any direction, you can go down a canyon heading N. E. S. or W., but, what he is saying is that when you find WWWH you should take the direction that is down from there, which ever direction it happens to be, just so that you are going down to a lower level.

    These are simple directions he gives us…..the trick or difficult part is to find the correct starting position. He doesn’t think that we can find the HOB w/o first getting WWWH. I think the HOB can be found w/o WWWH if you are able to understand what his reason for choosing that term (metaphor). And, yes if you knew the HOB you wouldn’t need any of the previous clues. IMO.

    • Ritt,
      That is a fairly good analysis you have presented. Definitely the approach and line of thinking I took when I first read the poem. After I was unsuccessful during my first two trips I began to question my reasoning. I began to wonder why only the first two clues could continually be found but nothing further – is down really down canyon?. I abandoned my strategy of taking a shortcut and finding HoB and looking for waterfalls when Mr. Fenn said:
      “All you have to do is think about the nine clues and follow them in order”,
      “You need to start at the beginning. You need to figure out where warm waters halt.”
      “You’ll never find it that way (ref hoB, etc.). You need to start at the beginning. You need to figure out where warm waters halt.”
      “You have to find out, to learn where the first clue is. They get progressively easier after you discover where the first clue is”,
      “But where do warm waters halt? Only the Phantom knows”.
      “There are a few words in the poem that are not useful in finding the treasure Phil, but it is risky to discount any of them. You over simplify the clues. There are many places in the Rocky Mountains where warm waters halt, and nearly all of them are north of Santa Fe. Look at the big picture, there are no short cuts”.
      “If you don’t know where warm water halts (sic), you don’t have anything.”

      After acknowledging my humility I stopped trying to out think him and started listening.

      If I have to start at the beginning why is that? The first thing I thought of is maybe some of the clues maybe be straight foreword but not necessarily what our subliminal conscience gravitates to.
      The next thing I considered was perspective of Fenn when he is giving directions.

      Yeah I know you are all thinking “Wolf you have gone off the deep end” but there is a method to my madnat if Mr. Fenn was actually at the hoB when he wrote the poem. From that perspective does “down” take on a new meaning? Yeah I know you are all thinking “Wolf you have gone off the deep end” but there is a method to my madness.

      Then he said:
      “As with some definitions, there are many issues in this life that I don’t agree with (“with” is a preposition). Who made the rule that says I shouldn’t end a sentence with a preposition?”

      No big deal except he claimed Einstein (actually Churchill) said , ““Ending a sentence with a preposition is something up with which I will not put;” making this an aberration and thus a reason to reexamine my preconceived idea of the preposition “down.”

      So if one considers the possibility of Fenn’s perspective of giving instructions from hoB, does “down” still mean down canyon?

      Food for thought…

      • Wolf –

        Nice post. Does down really mean up? I think that is meaningful – but not used in the way you are seeing it.

        I have a question for you or anyone else who would like to answer – and that is – where do the coordinates come into play in your thinking. Coordinates are precise directions. Do you think they are important? He has “never” mentioned them. If they where part of this – would he mention them? How does one find them? I think this is just the ticket when he said we are not talking about a certain thing – and if you have found two of the first coordinates, you walked right by the other seven – be it lat or longitude.

        In my opinion – once you find the phantom – a lot of things fall into place – 🙂

      • Hey!! The Wolf!! Are we having fun yet?? 🙂

        Fenn’s perspective when writing the clues could definitely play a part in the interpretation of same.

        I have attempted to try and mentally view the Poem from different vantage points. It is tedious(as I’m sure you’re aware of 🙂 ). Nothing jumps out, yet.

        But, it’s definitely worth pursuing.

  50. Nice discussions ,,,If my solve is correct and IMHO,HoB is a “local term”,that could be determined once you find wwh.I struggled on the choice of wwh a bit but now I also believe wwh is “local” and something you figure out if you indentify the big or “global” picture of the whole thing Fenn imagined.Of course if you decide the hob correctly somehow, wwh may not be needed,but getting to the chest still requires understanding the blaze etc again in the context of “global” framework of the problem..I can not go deeper as I may betray my solve,,but in my unique case,I somehow understood what the “blaze” is a year ago before anything else,,,,my problem has been to identify where it is under the poem context ,hob etc. Hence I guess figuring out the blaze is also a vital task awaiting anyone who happens to find hob correctly.I can not say more and what I said is in my humble opinion.

    Tintin Treasure

  51. Wolf,

    I believe the reason that people continue to arrive there, getting the first two clues, and then passing by the other clues is that the “there” is the HOB and they don’t recognize it because of its enormous size (The Big Picture, if you will). The HOB is a large town (city). and below (meaning south and down) this town you will put in the creek that is no place for the meek. This creek leads up and to the left (nigh) until you reach HL&WH. There you will have find the blaze, which you had already found on Google Earth. IMO.

    I see how you may have gone off the deep end., you are trying to make more of “down” than what the definition of it. Sorry that you got off course.

    More food for thought….

    • “You’ll never find it that way (ref hoB, etc.). You need to start at the beginning.”

      I think everyone has heard the phrase “Never say never!”

  52. I was writing a response to Loco’s response to Seeker about the given hoB comment, and then Loco modified his response with a second response which I feel is more on target, which he summarized as follows:

    “Then I realized it. He could say “right to the chest” because hoB is what it takes to recognize that you are on the correct route and, that once that is recognized, the other clues are more easily interpreted and recognized!! We (searchers) will have to solve the clues(and know we did), preceding hoB, in order to recognize hoB. “If” Forrest were to give us hoB, he knows we could proceed confidently, thru the remaining clues, “right to the chest”!!!!”

    I have always felt that Forrest’s comment regarding knowing hoB has generally been over-dramatized. I do accept his statement as he gave it. I believe that it is correct that if you have hoB, which means that Forrest actually gave it to you and confirmed it, that the “Why would you?” (reverse engineer wwwh) is logical.

    In the course of solving the poem, you need to start at the beginning and work in order of solving the contiguous clues. That description is a compilation of a number of comments that Forrest has made, especially numerous comments regarding the beginning and the sequence. So, if you have hoB, only given by Forrest, I believe that a person who is working intently on the poem would then be able to recognize the previous clues. You could reverse engineer them, because you have a true clue solution beyond the beginning. However, you don’t need to, or why would you, because with hoB, an intelligent searcher should be able to work forward to the correct ending. (Although any searcher worth his/her salt would of course want to confirm the previous clue solutions…).

    I do not believe that having hoB instantly gives you the chest, that he meant precisely that as he expressed it, and that you still need to solve remaining clues. When Forrest stated that you could go right to it, I think that the meaning is that a competent and engaged poem solver could work her way to the end with confidence. I don’t think the “right to it” is as literal as is being described above. Forrest also said that the clues get easier after the first clue, but it is extremely logical that this would be so in any sequence of clues that are contiguous, as they are progressively self-supporting. The problem for the poem solver is that you cannot know factually that you have the first clue correct or that any subsequent clue is correct. In theory, however, if you have an absolutely factual hoB, you can move with extreme confidence; you have a bona fide tool to work with.

    I disagree that if Forrest gave you the correct hoB, then everything prior to it in the poem becomes irrelevant or not useful. I think that’s an extreme interpretation. There is a natural tendency for searchers to on the one hand think that every word or phrase made by Forrest could mean anything under the sun, and there’s also a tendency to force an extremely precise and demanding logic upon a simple verbal response that Forrest has made.

    While the “You could go right to it” comment fits with my solution in the way I understand his intent, I certainly do not believe that it means that I would discard any part at all of the poem. It is all potentially useful. I feel that while the clues are contiguous and in order, the hints operate in a different way.

    But the theoretical exercise of being given hoB is essentially moot. No one has been given a clue solution by Forrest, as far as I know. So everyone operates within the realm of provisional solutions to individual clues and sequences of clues.

    In many of my posts I like to group specific quotes of Forrest together to create a better and more targeted picture of the whole. Forrest has provided many one-liners, and apparently free-floating statements. But I think it’s valuable to piece together his various statements into something stronger, like bringing order to the silverware drawer or the spice cabinet. Certainly the things that he keeps saying, in slightly different ways, should drive home the points that he is trying to make, if you associate them.

    Wolf has already done a good job with curating the following statements above:

    “All you have to do is think about the nine clues and follow them in order”,
    “You need to start at the beginning. You need to figure out where warm waters halt.”
    “You’ll never find it that way (ref hoB, etc.). You need to start at the beginning. You need to figure out where warm waters halt.”
    “You have to find out, to learn where the first clue is. They get progressively easier after you discover where the first clue is”,
    “But where do warm waters halt? Only the Phantom knows”.
    “There are a few words in the poem that are not useful in finding the treasure Phil, but it is risky to discount any of them. You over simplify the clues. There are many places in the Rocky Mountains where warm waters halt, and nearly all of them are north of Santa Fe. Look at the big picture, there are no short cuts”.
    “If you don’t know where warm water halts (sic), you don’t have anything.”

    It’s essential to listen, especially considering that Forrest said to hear me and listen good in the poem. And if we connect the act of listening with the idea that the poem is straightforward, or at least straightforward as defined by Forrrest, then perhaps we must consider the possibility that the story he told about his eyes being open and closed at the same time, as one example among many, might also be straightforward. Let’s call it straightforward with a twist. Eyes are never really closed, but they are often covered.

    Seeker- Look at the beautiful mess here; what have you wrought?

    Keep up the good work. I always read any post that says Seeker at the top…

    Halogetter

    • Halogetter; I think some of these quotes should go on the cheat sheet could you give me the source of these three. Thanks

      “You need to start at the beginning. You need to figure out where warm waters halt.”

      “You’ll never find it that way (ref hoB, etc.). You need to start at the beginning. You need to figure out where warm waters halt.”

      “If you don’t know where warm water halts (sic), you don’t have anything.”

      • Totally agree, Goofy. They should be on the cheat sheet!

        (and, I would like to have the links for my “library” 🙂 )

        Hope they send them!!

    • Very good summary. If a searcher were given the exact physical location of hoB but not the actual clue solution defining hoB do you think a searcher could continue to the trove with just that information?

      • Wolf-

        That’s a loaded question. You’re bringing up the idea of the “actual clue solution” not being equal to the “exact physical location”, and that a clue solution must first be derived and understood in order to know what place it refers to, that there’s a step in the process.

        Based upon most of what I have seen posted, I have typically seen the solution directly correlated to place. But I have posted about the potential difference between a clue solution and an actual place in the past, and some others have discussed it as well.

        For now I would say that the exact physical location is the goal, and if you know the place of the hoB clue, you’re good to go forward…

        Halogetter

        • “That’s a loaded question. You’re bringing up the idea of the “actual clue solution” not being equal to the “exact physical location”, and that a clue solution must first be derived and understood in order to know what place it refers to, that there’s a step in the process.” – Halo

          In the interest of unloading the question, I was more curious about the possibility of identifying the physical place by the surrounding clues (i.e. creek for instance) but the correct solution or understanding what is the hoB prevents the searcher from moving forward.

          Is it possible that solving the hoB is more than just identifying the physical location, but also instructs the searcher how to proceed and interpret the subsequent clues while confirming the previous clues; and thus without actually solving it one can’t go “straight to it” with confidence?

          The Wolf

    • Thanks…. I have been thinking of changing… well, adding to the name.

      ” Seeker: abstract thinker… enter at your own risk”

      As always a great post.

    • Halo, good thoughts. I wonder if he might be suggesting we close our eyes and listen to the poem. How it sounds and how it’s seen are two different things. Think of the way a child writes. Phonetically. “My, Ny, Hi, tyerd, etc”

      • Maybe I should reopen the….

        Multeepal meany thread. Again

        IT’S A JOKE…. Please send your comments to my complaint department, at mybad.org.com.oops

          • I woondered that meeself locolobo. Do ye kin it yet?

            A little irish brogue from lia since I’m looking through photos of wie baur – wedge tombs of County Clare. Mindy started me looking at every 4th or 5th letter which leeds to some interesting rabbit holes for ancients with heeded warnings of red owls and hidden hats, or dewie farmers… I haven’t decided which meaning to apply yet LOLOL 🙂

        • LOl!!!

          Lia,

          Sorry, I just saw your post. I don’t subscribe to an of the blogs/forums. I just read them, most of the time.

          YES, I “kin” exactly what Seeker is referring to!!

          🙂 @ Seeker!!

    • @Halo
      Lol!! I was wondering if you would engage. Truthfully, after I composed the last one, I was kinda hoping not……….I really do hate to type!!!

      Yes, this was a theoretical exercise for me to determine what implications, if anything, there might be in Forrest’s comments
      ……………………………………..
      ->You wrote-> You could reverse engineer them, because you have a true clue solution beyond the beginning. However, you don’t need to, or why would you, because with hoB, an intelligent searcher should be able to work forward to the correct ending.

      > My point exactly. Thus his statement, “why would you”, could only be made if he knew that there is no information, in lines 1 thru 7, that would be required to continue thru the Poem.
      ………..(and I agree also that any searcher worth his salt would reverse-engineer it anyway. Just for the satisfaction of knowing what the solution to prior clues were)

      As I said, Forrest chose that question to answer. And he had plenty of time to formulate his answer. And I think you will agree, he is very careful about which words he uses and how he uses them.

      Can you give me a logical explanation as to how he could truthfully make that statement if there were any information, contained in lines 1 thru 7, that would be required to solve/interpret something later in the Poem??
      …………………………………..
      ->You wrote->I do not believe that having hoB instantly gives you the chest, that he meant precisely that as he expressed it, and that you still need to solve remaining clues.

      >Agreed. And while I may not have made it apparent in my initial post to Seeker, I did in subsequent posts.

      This is in the “summary” of my last post-> So. yes while I think Fenn is saying you can go directly to chest, I think you will still have to identify remaining clues…..I just think he is saying it will be much easier to recognize them once you have and/or at “below the hoB”.

      This is in my initial post, and last post-> A nod to the BOG camp….it is possible that you must actually be at the location of the Blaze, and/or the HOB, in order to understand the remaining lines and proceed accordingly.

      **Although I used Forrest’s words, “right to the chest”, I believe I made it clear that I didn’t think the chase would immediately be over, if you had the hoB.
      …………………………………..
      ->you wrote-> the story he told about his eyes being open and closed at the same time, as one example among many, might also be straightforward. Let’s call it straightforward with a twist.

      ->So, you want to accept something in the book, that you apparently believe is beneficial, as “straightforward-with-a-twist”???

      But, you want to discount possible meanings in two other unambiguous, straightforward statements he made???? Without disproving them????……….LOL!! That’s not playing fair, Halo!!!! :)
      ………………………………………………………….

      In closing, I will paste the summary from my other post:
      Summary:

      So. yes while I think Fenn is saying you can go directly to chest, I think you will still have to identify remaining clues…..I just think he is saying it will be much easier to recognize them once you have and/or at “below the hoB”.

      -Forrest makes these statements because there is nothing within them that will aid us, as searchers, in solving any clue, hoB or otherwise.

      -There is nothing in lines 1 thru 7 that is required to solve any of the Poem past line 8.

      –Although, as searchers, we will need to solve the Poem in order to get to hoB, we will be able to proceed confidently from there(hoB) to the chest.

      And as I said before, I will stand by these assertions until forrestfire says, “loco…..you are crazy!”
      ………………………………………………………..
      Now, Halo, I have a great deal of respect for you. I have described my reasoning and rationale behind my assertions. But, I am like Seeker. Don’t just tell me you don’t believe so or that you don’t think something is correct. Show me proof that I am in error. 🙂 🙂

      Dang it Seeker, see what you started, again!!! I just hope Dal or Goofy don’t nuke us for using all the memory!!! LOL!! 🙂

      • LOL!! Dang!! 🙂

        Halo, this post (fourwhlhntrttotcFF$) is from me, loco!

        I received a phone call and was typing email and user while juggling the phone. I have no idea why I typed what I did! 🙂

        I emailed Dal to change the user name. Hopefully he will.

        Don’t know why it showed up down here? I clicked on the reply button beneath your post???

        Anyway, Good luck to Ya!!!

        (and, I hope we all live long enough to see what everything we argue about really means!! 🙂 )

        loco

        • @Goofy, not only do I really like your picture, I love the way you think!! 🙂

          and

          @Marvin, you’re Candle is burning extra bright!!!

          Thanks for posting, guys (and keep your heads down!) and Good Luck to Bof of You!!! 🙂 🙂

      • Hey Loco,

        I’ll address your questions where you thought we were not in agreement.

        “Can you give me a logical explanation as to how he could truthfully make that statement if there were any information, contained in lines 1 thru 7, that would be required to solve/interpret something later in the Poem??”

        The logical explanation for this is that I believe there is material in lines 1-7 that are helpful, not absolutely required, to solve clues beyond hoB. Obviously I believe I know the solution to hoB, but if Forrest told me what it was and I was wrong, I certainly would not discard anything in the poem, regardless of its location. Hints are still hints. If his hoB was my hoB, there’s no issue. I would not be looking for anything, and would expect the entire solve to be correct.

        “you wrote-> the story he told about his eyes being open and closed at the same time, as one example among many, might also be straightforward. Let’s call it straightforward with a twist.

        So, you want to accept something in the book, that you apparently believe is beneficial, as “straightforward-with-a-twist”???

        But, you want to discount possible meanings in two other unambiguous, straightforward statements he made???? Without disproving them????……….LOL!! That’s not playing fair, Halo!!!! :)”

        I’m not sure I understand your questions here, regarding discounting possible meanings. I think that Forrest’s statement about hoB was pretty straightforward, and I explained exactly how I understand it in a simple way, which we agree upon for the most part.

        My piece about the idea of “straightforward” was apart from the other consideration, and I don’t see any conflict. I just feel that each person must determine what straightforward means in the eyes of Forrest, and gave an example of Forrest’s clever thinking, or outsmarting if you will, that may clue in to the idea regarding how straight straight is to Forrest.

        Halogetter

        • LOL!! Halo, I totally understand why you disagree, and the reason for your bias. It is very apparent.

          But, what you wrote here, does not counter what I’m saying->…..The logical explanation for this is that I believe there is material in lines 1-7 that are helpful, not absolutely required, to solve clues beyond hoB. Obviously I believe I know the solution to hoB, but if Forrest told me what it was and I was wrong, I certainly would not discard anything in the poem, regardless of its location. Hints are still hints.

          —I know you don’t want to “believe” what I am asserting. But, what you “want to believe” is not a logical explanation! Again. I ask you to disprove what I have.
          …………………………………

          Fenn said, ”If you are sure about the location of home of Brown why are you concerned about where warm waters halt?”

          As I said, Forrest chose that question to answer. And he had plenty of time to formulate his answer. And I think you will agree, he is very careful about which words he uses and how he uses them. He definitely didn’t have to answer the question. Jenny has made it quite clear she submits the questions to Forrest and he chooses which to answer.

          Is it straightforward?….. I don’t see anything that could be twisted.

          And again, was he ambiguous??….I can’t see anything left open to interpretation.

          So next, what does it mean:

          As searchers, we know that we have to solve the clues from beginning to end. And we assume there could be information related to solving the Poem, anywhere in the Poem.
          …….. So how can he tell us “no need to reverse-engineer, if we knew the correct hoB”? ……(whether by guessing or, theoretically, it was given to us)

          ->For Forrest to truthfully say, “why are you concerned about where warm waters halt?” can only mean one thing: He recognizes that there is nothing, from line 1 thru line 7, that you need, in order to solve the rest of the Poem………..You don’t need anything from the first 7 lines for use later on.

          If you have the correct hoB, whether you guessed it or Forrest gave it to you, the first 7 lines may as well not be there!
          ……………………………………

          Now, Halo, I will leave you alone about this. I’m not being disrespectful, but I think it is evident that you cannot logically counter any point that I have made above. And I do understand why you don’t want to “believe”. I’m sure there are many others.

          Good Luck to Everybody (somebody find that dang thing) 🙂 🙂 ……….loco

          • That answer to me tells me that hoB is not trout, or bear, or any brown animal. Because there are hundreds of places in the Rockies that fit that interpretation.

            OR it tells me that if you have the correct hoB, WWWH is obvious, but not necessarily close.

            OR it tells me that if you have the correct hoB, WWWH is close-by.

            OR it tells me that maybe hoB is the hiding place. Maybe that whole sentence simply describes both the beginning and end of the hiding of the chest. Maybe the story begins WWWH, and ends where Forrest put the chest in below the hoB. If you are sure about where he hid it (hoB), why care about how it got there?

            So, still ambiguous to me…

          • Mindy, could you explain how you came to those conclusions?

            “That answer to me tells me that hoB is not trout, or bear, or any brown animal. Because there are hundreds of places in the Rockies that fit that interpretation.”
            -We already know that warm waters halt in many locations, why can’t there be many Home of Browns?

            “it tells me that if you have the correct hoB, WWWH is obvious, but not necessarily close.”
            -Why can’t WWWH be obvious AND close?

            “it tells me that if you have the correct hoB, WWWH is close-by.”
            -Why must it be close by?

          • “LOL!! Halo, I totally understand why you disagree, and the reason for your bias. It is very apparent. But, what you wrote here, does not counter what I’m sayiing.

            “The logical explanation for this is that I believe there is material in lines 1-7 that are helpful, not absolutely required, to solve clues beyond hoB. Obviously I believe I know the solution to hoB, but if Forrest told me what it was and I was wrong, I certainly would not discard anything in the poem, regardless of its location. Hints are still hints.”

            I know you don’t want to “believe” what I am asserting. But, what you “want to believe” is not a logical explanation! Again. I ask you to disprove what I have.”

            Loco-

            I’m not sure what you’re laughing at or what you’re after here. I don’t “want to believe” what you’re asserting. I don’t believe it (regarding lines 1-7). And I have no desire to disprove anything you said. That’s impossible without presenting the correct solution to the poem. We’re talking about interpretation of a comment by Forrest, and each person will see it as they will.

            “Fenn said, ”If you are sure about the location of home of Brown why are you concerned about where warm waters halt?” As I said, Forrest chose that question to answer. And he had plenty of time to formulate his answer. And I think you will agree, he is very careful about which words he uses and how he uses them. He definitely didn’t have to answer the question. Jenny has made it quite clear she submits the questions to Forrest and he chooses which to answer.
            Is it straightforward?….. I don’t see anything that could be twisted. And again, was he ambiguous??….I can’t see anything left open to interpretation.”

            Yes, Forrest chose to answer the question, and answered it as he wanted. I don’t disagree with this. It’s obvious. And his answer was straightforward. If you had hoB, you would not need wwwh.

            I don’t think anything in his statement should be twisted. The twisted comment, as I already said, was in reference to my other thought and comment.

            “So next, what does it mean: As searchers, we know that we have to solve the clues from beginning to end. And we assume there could be information related to solving the Poem, anywhere in the Poem. So how can he tell us “no need to reverse-engineer, if we knew the correct hoB”? ……(whether by guessing or, theoretically, it was given to us). For Forrest to truthfully say, “why are you concerned about where warm waters halt?” can only mean one thing: He recognizes that there is nothing, from line 1 thru line 7, that you need, in order to solve the rest of the Poem………..You don’t need anything from the first 7 lines for use later on. If you have the correct hoB, whether you guessed it or Forrest gave it to you, the first 7 lines may as well not be there!”

            The “may as well not be there” comment is yours, not Forrest’s. I agree that you don’t need to be concerned about wwwh if you have hoB, as I previously said. Wwwh is a clue that would be integral to the process of getting to hoB, but not so if you already have hoB.

            But if we still need to solve clues after hoB even if we are given hoB by Forrest, which I think we agree on, then what I am saying is that I would not discount the HINTS in lines 1-7 to help me with those remaining clues. This is very simple, and does not in my mind twist or contradict Forrest’s statement in any way. Forrest did not speak directly about the “may as well not be there”; it’s your interpretation, which is perfectly fine.

            “Now, Halo, I will leave you alone about this. I’m not being disrespectful, but I think it is evident that you cannot logically counter any point that I have made above. And I do understand why you don’t want to “believe”. I’m sure there are many others.”

            My feeling that there are valuable hints in lines 1-7 for clues that occur after hoB is certainly logical to me, due to my understanding of the poem and careful listening and interpretation of everything that Forrest says.

            I have no desire to convince you or anyone else that the hints in lines 1-7 are worth considering if you theoretically already have hoB. But again, the argument is moot, as we will not be given hoB by Forrest.

            Halogetter

          • Mindy,

            Fenn wrote: “If you are sure about the location of home of Brown why are you concerned about where warm waters halt?”

            You wrote: “If you are sure about where he hid it (hoB), why care about how it got there?”

            Those two statements are one. and the same.

            And, that is why there is no ambiguity in the statement he made. It doesn’y matter what, or where hoB is. And it doesn’t matter how near, or far, WWWH is.

            Thus, his statement, “that you could reverse-engineer , but why would you?”…….can only mean there is no pertinent information in lines 1 thru 7.
            …………………………..

            ->For Forrest to truthfully say, “why are you concerned about where warm waters halt?” can only mean one thing: He recognizes that there is nothing, from line 1 thru line 7, that you need, in order to solve the rest of the Poem………..You don’t need anything from the first 7 lines for use later on.

            If you have the correct hoB, whether you guessed it or Forrest gave it to you, the first 7 lines may as well not be there!

            🙂 thanks, Mindy

            Good Luck to You & Jamie 🙂

          • “Fenn said, ”If you are sure about the location of home of Brown why are you concerned about where warm waters halt?”

            Simply – Forrest answered a question with a question.

            That in my opinion does not make what he asked – factual.

            To me it’s a no brainer that every single dog gone thing is important. Period.

          • Loco,

            Your interpretation is one of several. You cannot say definitively that there is only one way to interpret it, as several people have provided different interpretations, all of which are valid.

            I can say I absolutely believe there are several important words in lines 1-7. Not all of them, but several.

            I can’t say you’re interpretation is wrong, but your logic behind yours being the only right answer is flawed.

            For example,

            You are making a cake. You have the ingredients all stirred and ready to go into the oven.

            It took you four steps to get to the point where you’re at.

            1. Put in dry ingredients.
            2. Put in wet ingredients.
            3. Mix it up.
            4. Pour into the pan.

            Number five is put in the oven.

            I say if you are sure you’re ready to put it in the oven, why are you still concerned with putting in the dry ingredients?

            That doesn’t mean that steps 1-4 aren’t important. In fact, I think steps 1-4 are vital. Maybe he is saying if you are sure about hoB, maybe it’s BECAUSE you have already followed the directions on how to get there.

            IMO.

            I’m not arguing here. Just pointing out some differing viewpoints. I really don’t know why he said it that way. You could be right, but you could also not be right.

            Good luck to you as well…everyone’s ideas are valid until someone has their hands on the chest. Until that time, I can’t definitively discount anything. 🙂

          • Halo,

            I was not LOL!! at you, it’s just that I am enjoying this immensely.

            I said I would leave you alone, but you have interjected some new aspects.

            My saying “may as well not be there”, is just a term describing the final analysis of the exercise.

            And, I also, “listen” carefully to Forrest and make no assumptions about most of his comments.
            ………….
            You wrote-> I am saying is that I would not discount the HINTS in lines 1-7 to help me with those remaining clues.
            …………

            You may think you see hints within those lines, where there quite probably are not any.

            And, I can say that because to reverse-engineer to WWWH, you would have to go thru lines 7,6,5 to get there…. If you don’t need to reverse-engineer to WWWH, you certainly would not need to reverse back to line 1!

            But, and I am not twisting anything, Forrest says there is no need to reverse-engineer anything.
            ………………….

            For there to be hints, it would be incumbent upon the searcher to interpret same. And that would require a correct solution of the clues contained within those lines.

            So again, if there is no need to reverse-engineer, there is no need for the solution of the clues contained within lines 1 thru 7. If there is no need for the solution, thus providing you with the interpretation, how can there be any hints contained within those lines?

            – If the solution of those lines were required, he could not/would not say “there is no need to reverse-engineer”….There can be no hints contained within them.

            And, “listening” to Fenn or not, that is based upon the critical analysis of the two statements themselves.

            locolobo 🙂

          • I like the cake analogy Mindy… But if you know HOB is a say a Chocolate cake do you really need to go back and mix up the dry and wet ingredients first and then mix them together? Heck you might just be able to buy a cake mix or a Chocolate cake already made at the bakery either way you end up with a Chocolate cake… Now if he specifically tells you “a Chocolate cake from scratch” then you need to go back And follow the recipe in the poem… So if we were to know what HOB is it must be very specific imho… lol… Just playing with you Mindy…

          • Spallies,

            I agree. I do think the hoB is very specific.

            And Loco, maybe reverse engineering isn’t even possible, because you need to figure out the clues in order. You have to know where warm waters halt, because there is a PROCESS in the poem that led you there. Once you have the egg mixed in the cake, you can’t take it back out. It will forever be part of the cake.

            But to get to the hoB, you might have to turn on the mixer, and from there, you can’t undo what’s already been done, meaning you needed those first seven lines of the poem to get to where you are. Once you get there, it’s fruitless to try and get the egg back out…

          • Mindy,

            You wrote-> Maybe he is saying if you are sure about hoB, maybe it’s BECAUSE you have already followed the directions on how to get there.
            ……..

            The complete answer was, “If you are sure about the location of home of Brown why are you concerned about where warm waters halt? But to answer your question, sure you could….”
            …………
            Yes, if a searcher had had solved and followed the directions, they would already know WWWH.

            But, he added, “But to answer your question, sure you could….”.

            That can only mean that if you only had the correct hoB (however you got it), without solving lines 1 thru 7, you could reverse-engineer.

            That, taken in context with…”If you are sure about the location of home of Brown why are you concerned about where warm waters halt?”, can only mean……sure you could reverse-engineer, but that there is nothing there that you need.

            🙂 And, I don’t know of anyone who had followed the recipe and were ready to put in oven that would still be worried about dry ingredients.

            To use your analogy: Forrest is saying, if you have hoB, you already have the required dry ingredients in the bowl. There is no need to concern yourself about them any further,

            loco

          • Mindy,

            you wrote-> “And Loco, maybe reverse engineering isn’t even possible, because you need to figure out the clues in order. You have to know where warm waters halt, because there is a PROCESS in the poem that led you there.”

            Absolutely. We, as searchers, have to figure out the clues and follow the PROCESS. And, I have made that tenet obvious in my replies.

            But, Forrest’s answer, at Jenny’s, was in response to a theoretical question….”if you had the correct hoB…..?”

            I am just asserting that, even though it was theoretical, Forrest did not give an ambiguous or misleading answer. And I am offering an analysis of what the implications of that could be.

            A lot have disputed that analysis, but no one has shown me, logically, where it is incorrect…..that is all I’m asking.

            As I told Halo, I knew there would be many (maybe the majority :)) who would not “want” to “see” what the analysis shows……so, “prove” it wrong!! 🙂

            loco

          • Loco,

            How about this compromise. If, when the chest is found, it turns out you are right, I’ll buy you a cake. And a cheeseburger.

            If it turns out I am right, I get a cake (vanilla with vanilla frosting) and maybe a plain cheeseburger.

            Deal? 🙂

          • can we get in on this deal? hubby like carrot cake and me chocolate on chocolate please. skip cheese burger

          • Okay, did he say, “if you have the correct hoB,” or “If YOU are sure of the hoB?” I’m not sure being sure and being correct is the same thing. How many countless times have we been sure about a solve to find out we were wrong?

            I will admit, I don’t usually memorize every Fenn quote, but his wording in this one may be important.

            Didn’t he say we have to know WWWH?

            And I’m not sure why Forrest chose to say “If we are sure,” over “If you are correct…”

            Can you prove to me why it could not be interpreted this way:

            If you know hoB, it is because it is where the TC is, and at that point, still concerning yourself with WWWH is pointless? Since if you have hoB, you already have the chest.

            I’m not saying this is correct, but can you prove that is not a valid interpretation?

            I still think we should let it go and buy each other a cake. 🙂

          • I agree with you about interpreting what Fenn says Mindy. I remember thinking at the time that Forrest was just giving a smart-azz remark back to a smart-azz questioner. It was as if he was saying..”Your mom wears army boots”…or more aptly, “I’m not going to answer a question like that?”

          • LOL!! Could very well be, Dal!!

            He could have been thinking, “dumb-azz, I’ve already said that if you had the correct hoB you’d go right to the chest. So why are you worried about WWWH?”

            But, he didn’t just ask why would you be concerned about WWWH,

            He said you could reverse-engineer to WWWH!

            Now, the other argument aside, that says a great deal. We, as searchers, are having a great deal of trouble interpreting the clues up to and including hoB……(no one has the chest).

            -Yet, Forrest says if you had the correct hoB, you could use it to recognize, interpret and understand the clues necessary to work backwards to WWWH????

            So, that can only be if, knowing what/where hoB is, is such that it allows you to look back in the Poem and recognize what the lines mean and apply them accordingly.

            Regardless of his reasons, he did answer the question and did so in a straightforward manner. There is no ambiguity there, nothing left open to interpretation.

            The next question is, “what the heck could there be about hoB that allows you to reverse-engineer to WWWH; that we, as searchers, cannot see while trying to solve the Poem from the beginning?”

            Good Luck Dal!!!! 🙂

            (and again, thanks for hosting the Blog……aaannnd your toleration!!) 😉

          • Logical way of looking at it Loco……..Which leads me to believe if Fenn came out and told us the answer to any one of the clues we would find it in short order.

            Without any doubt about one clue we would keep looking until we found the rest. I think uncertainty is what makes searchers walk right past the other seven. They just don’t see them. Which leads me to believe the first two clues are relatively straight forward since so many have solved them.

            And also leads me to believe someone like Dal or Gypsy that has honed in on one area will probably the ones that will find it. IF one of them has the first two clues correct, it’s just a matter of time before they figure it out.

          • All,
            I basically agree with what Lobo is saying. I think some may trouble with it depending on how they think the poem is structured. If you’re in the camp that the riddle is like a jigsaw puzzle made up of lots of random information and a grand theme that has to be pieced together, then you probably think all the info is needed.

            However, if you believe what F said about the clues relating to places and that they are in consecutive order it’s different. In this case it is like moving square to square on a board games. If you get the “move ahead 4 squares” card (HOB) then the previous squares are no longer of value and you continue forward.

            I think Fenns answer was really just to re-emphasize that you’re wasting time trying to jump ahead since there really is no way to be certain of HOB unless you’ve followed the path. But “theoretically” if you could the prior stuff is moot.

            To me HOB is crux….that’s where folks stumble and have passed on by missing the remaining path to the TC.

          • Just my own take on this, but if Forrest said to follow the clues in order, wouldn’t his comment about hoB apply to any single clue? For example, if “no place for the meek” referred to a specific location, do we really care where WWWH or hoB is?

          • I agree Tom. If, and it’s a big IF, you know any of the clues for a fact after HOB, you wouldn’t need any of the previous clues. The information I get from these statements of Forrest’s just reinforce his previous ones about following the clues precisely, they are in order. Now, if the first clue is WWWH, that to me does not necessarily mean that the first stanza would not be useful as it may contain information relating to the treasure location and not to WWWH so I would not discard it as being useless. The thing is, no-one could ever know any of those clues for a fact unless Forrest told them as he is the only person that knows what the clues are. The rest of us just have theories and guesses. So all of this conversation about reverse engineering is not helpful for solving the puzzle IMO. You can go backwards if you knew for certain what HOB was but, as Forrest said, why would you? Also from Forrest “All of this cyberspace verbiage is conspicuous by the absence of talk about where warm waters halt.” 🙂

          • Tom,
            At the risk of reopening this can of worms, yes.

            If Forrest made those statements, concerning any word, or phrase, contained within the Poem and if the same rationale were applied, the conclusion would be the same.

            BUT, he has made no statements even remotely of that nature, about anything else contained within the Poem!! (and I highly doubt he will do so in the future! :))

            As pointed out by CJ, and others, there is no way for us, as searchers, to know if any one aspect of our solution is correst…….unless we have the chest. Forrest has not, I believe he will not, directly “give” us the meaning of any clue.

            And, when I started this, I knew what would transpire. A lot of searcher’s solutions, past HOB, are dependent upon what they “think” they see within the first 7 lines.
            If Forrest is saying that there is nothing in the first 7 lines that will be required to solve the Poem past HOB, (and I believe what I presented shows that)……then anyone’s solution, that is dependent upon such information, is doomed. An opinion that is based solely on unambiguous, and straight forward, statements made by Forrest.

            Good Luck to All!!! 🙂

            (as I said before, I hope we all have enough time left on this earth to see the correct meanings of everything we debate!!) 🙂

          • Don’t get me wrong, there is definitely information in lines 1-7, but I think there is a difference between hints and clues. To me, clues offer actual direction following a path leading to the treasure – and those are in definite order. But hints may help describe details about areas or locations – and those can be in any order. That’s the way I interpret the poem.

          • Tom, ???????

            I didn’t assume anything???

            Of course there is definitely information in lines 1thru 7!
            There better be! Heck, this is hard enough for us searchers without him putting lines in that didn’t have information!

            I merely answered the specific question you posed.

            And I agree with you on this–>”there is a difference between hints and clues. To me, clues offer actual direction following a path leading to the treasure – and those are in definite order.”

            And, agree on this–>”hints may help describe details about areas or locations”

            But, let me asak you a theoretical question, if I may:

            Do you really think Forrest would place “hints” in, let’s say– lines 1 and 2…that would possibly have relevance to, let’s say– the Blaze??

            just curious

            Good Luck, Tom 🙂

          • Locolobo,

            “But, let me asak you a theoretical question, if I may:
            Do you really think Forrest would place “hints” in, let’s say– lines 1 and 2…that would possibly have relevance to, let’s say– the Blaze??”

            In a word, yes. 🙂 I don’t want to say specifically what “hints” That I believe he may have placed and where, but he could have “possibly” been referring to the blaze in the opening lines. He has hinted towards a similar concept in a couple of interviews and email replies.

            Good luck to you as well.

          • 🙂 Seeker, where’d you go, guy??

            Dang, I keep having to apologize to you. I, in no manner, meant to hi-jack your post nor to diminish it in any way. You are a force to be reckoned with!!!

            I really just wanted to play with you, and The Wolf, again, for a little while! 🙂
            (oh, and shake a couple of trees to see what fell out!! 🙂 )

            If Dal, or Goofy, can split things and move things to something else, I’m cool with it.
            Heck, call it “Loco’s Loco Postulation”!! 🙂

            Anyhow, hope ya ain’t mad? And I do apologize.

            Buena Suerte, Amigo

          • Loco,

            I’m touched you missed me so. LOL

            Was out of town driving in a mosoon, with 400 mph winds. dodging tree limps and flying Alien dragon egg. [ I may have embellish slightly, but anyways.]

            Then Father’s sday came for me to relax next to a 600 degree grill, in 90 degree heat and cooking for 12 people after spending a small chunk of fenn gold on food. and in between pulling idiots off tthe lawn who thought it was a parking lot and couldn’t realize why they sank in the mud after it rained 3″ the day before.

            But thank you for your concerns… Lets Play….

  53. Seabee,

    You left the “OR” out of my quotes. I was stating that there can be many interpretations to Forrest ‘s reply. I was responding to whoever it was that said Forrest’s reply wasn’t ambiguous. You’re right…it can be interpreted those ways as well. Ambiguous. 🙂

    • I wasn’t saying “AND” so the “OR” didn’t seem necessary. I’m having a tough time seeing much ambiguity in that statement also so I was asking how you came to those conclusions from his answer.
      You said, “That answer to me tells me that hoB is not trout, or bear, or any brown animal. Because there are hundreds of places in the Rockies that fit that interpretation.”
      How do you draw that conclusion from his answer?

      • Well, dang, I wrote a whole reply while doing my mom’s grocery shopping, and thought I hit “post” but apparently it wasn’t meant to be, and it’s gone. Lol.

        Anyway, I basically said I wasn’t necessarily saying that I interpret his statement that way. That’s why I put in the “ors.”

        I think his statement IS ambiguous, because it can be interpreted several different ways. I interpret his statement to mean that the hoB is a very specific, unique place, but I could be, and very often am, wrong.

        I personally feel that hoB doesn’t relate to trout or bears, but it doesn’t matter how I feel, because I don’t have the chest.

        I can’t argue definitively toward any one interpretation, because again, I don’t have the chest.

        All I can do is relate where my research has taken me so far. 🙂

  54. LOL!! Mindy, I’m tired of having to go back up and find the “reply” button so as to stay in sequence. So I’m starting anew.

    Shucks Lady, if you’re right I’ll buy you 2 cakes, double-meat cheese w/ jalepenos aaanndd throw in a sack of Avenger action figures!!! 🙂
    …………………………….
    http://mysteriouswritings.com/questions-with-forrest/

    “If you are sure about the location of home of Brown why are you concerned about where warm waters halt? But to answer your question, sure you could and a few searchers might throw in some gas money for a percentage of the take. Good luck.f”
    ……………………….

    you asked->Okay, did he say, “if you have the correct hoB,” or “If YOU are sure of the hoB?” I’m not sure being sure and being correct is the same thing. How many countless times have we been sure about a solve to find out we were wrong?

    –Oh, he said sure without a doubt. And, yes, as searchers, it has been proven time and again that being sure does not equate to correct.

    But, Forrest could not/would not say you could reverse-engineer back to WWWH from an “incorrect” hoB……
    🙂 If he had wanted to mess with us, he could have used that distinction between “sure” and “correct”, while keeping it to himself!…. He could have simply said,”no it can’t be….” and we would all be going crazy, asking ourselves “How can you not be able to reverse-engineer, if you are “sure” of hoB?” 🙂 🙂
    ……………

    you wrote->Can you prove to me why it could not be interpreted this way:

    If you know hoB, it is because it is where the TC is, and at that point, still concerning yourself with WWWH is pointless? Since if you have hoB, you already have the chest.

    — That goes back to the other answer Fenn had previously given, that I used in my analysis of his “reverse-engineer” statement.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ipvIGaVt7C8 — At about 10:47 she asks, “Who’s Brown”……FF replies, “if I told you that you’d go right to the chest”!

    So. yes while I think Fenn is saying you can go directly to chest, I think you will still have to identify and solve the remaining clues…..I just think he is saying it will be much easier to recognize them once you have and/or at “below the hoB”.

    In the analysis of the “reverse-engineer” point, it does not matter where the chest is located. The remaining clues, after hoB, could all be centralized at hoB. Or, they could lead you 50 miles away.

    Even if the chest is at hoB, the fact that he asks why “reverse-engineer” can only mean that there is nothing to be gained…..there is no information in lines 1 thru 7 that will be needed to proceed to the chest, hints or otherwise!

      • LOL!! Mindy. I love you!!! 🙂

        Where have you been?? That is what all the furor has been about, and why I’m getting pounded!!! 🙂

        Yes, that is what started it all.
        I showed the rationale for why, AFTER HOB, that anything relating to lines 1-7 is not required….hints or otherwise!!!

        good luck to ya!!!

  55. All of the ideas and many interpretations of this thread are very interesting and certainly worthy of reading. My take on it is as simple as it can get… Fenn’s comment about not worrying about WWWH if you know what HOB is, means that it is not necessary to solve these clues more than once. If a searcher has solved the HOB there is no need to go back to a previous clue, so why worry about it. If my solve does not allow me to move from one clue to the next with confidence, then I am not on the right track. I believe it is as simple as that. No hidden messages, no Ouija boards, nothing but solid solutions in order. My job is to figure out the story he is trying to pass on to the future and that is about it. Stay safe all…

    • Ken,

      Read your post a few times and you made some subtle good point. But more than that you kept me thinking. “Personally” the hoB comment for me was fenn sayin… I’m not giving you that clue.

      In all the readin of comments and statements he has made, Most of the time I see him eliminating possibilities, but no direct aiding in the “clues”. Not a structure, outhouse, Idaho, Utah, Nevada, Below 10,200′ above 5000′ { as well as the comment at the top of this page ] etc. All of these do not point to a clue nor do they aid in a clue. They are eliminations, But no “True” help to the solve. Call them a friendly shove, if you will. And why I think Fenn came out and said the “useless clues” comment.

      When you said; “I believe it is as simple as that. No hidden messages, no Ouija boards, nothing but solid solutions in order. My job is to figure out the story he is trying to pass on to the future and that is about it. Stay safe all…”

      The hidden message Q&A was mine. At the time there was a lot of talk about government control over “Public” lands and Fenn made a comment on secreting a 12oz. soda. But we all know that it is very difficult for us to ask him a direct question for getting information out of him { he as taken of 5 years of questions from searchers attempting to do just that and the score is searcher 0 – Fenn all.}

      But you also said ; “My job is to figure out the story he is trying to pass on to the future and that is about it.” I agree with this and ask, Is this not a message itself? And what is it he wants to sent in that story to the future?

      And if there is Story, message, or whatever word you would like to use… as you said, it must be “figured out”, which makes it important to the solve which in itself and just made the solving of the poem just a bit more difficult, than just straightforwards.

      Anyways, thanks for your post… it was a shot of Gatorade to refresh the old brain cell.

      • I’ll add this Q&A to the comment at the top of this page.

        Someone unfamiliar with your poem receives a message that says “meet me where warm waters halt, somewhere in the mountains north of Santa Fe”. Would they be able to work out where to go? If they can’t, would they need the whole poem, another stanza, or just a line or word to help them on their way? ~Phil Bayman
        .
        There are a few words in the poem that are not useful in finding the treasure Phil, but it is risky to discount any of them. You over simplify the clues. There are many places in the Rocky Mountains where warm waters halt, and nearly all of them are north of Santa Fe. Look at the big picture, there are no short cuts. f

        Just like the other comment of “over complicating” I think there is a area of difficulty we need to over come. An area that is complicated but not overly, and an area that is simple but not overly simple.

        And when reading the poem most like to “break it down”. I have done this myself, but “Look at the big picture, there are no short cuts.” Tells me all the poem is a whole and not just individual clues. IMO

      • Seeker,
        Your points are always well thought out and provoke healthy exercise. Good stuff…
        This whole Chase is, The story of Fenn and his band of followers. Truly it is really only about him as it relates to how and why he came to hide a treasure and dare the public to go and find it. We as the band of followers have added another dimension by offering up our personal ideas and opinions. All good clean fun…
        My feeling is that Forrest has had a blast throwing a ton of stories and SB and interviews into the mix, knowing that every word he says will be analyzed into insanity. Still all good clean fun…
        Searchers ask q’s and he obliges. His answers are selective and very basic to the question asked. The answers provoke more questions, but in their true form have just enough in them to suffice. I call that simple not evasive.
        So, if HOB is after (and I believe it is) WWWH, then one truly does NOT have to worry about WWWH or anything preceding it, in regards to the question posed to him and how he responded. That keeps him honest and gives him a chance to stir up the hornets nest a bit. Still all good clean fun, w/ a little red pepper now…
        The hidden message is The Treasure and what it represents, so yes, you are correct to point out that there is a hidden message. I stand corrected there. I only meant to say that I believe this all could prove to be much simpler than we(I) are(am) making it. Fire away!

        • Ken,

          Love it !…….. “Fire away”

          I normally don’t comment on a searchers personality etc. But reading this response shows me you’re not just looking for the leprechauns cauldron, but truly enjoying the challenge of the wit and cleverness of the poem and the challenge overall.

          Applauding… for keeping it real.

          oh right…. IMO

  56. my take is that each clue can be identified individually. You do not need the clue 1 to solve clue 2 and so on. However, the hard part (for me) to figure out is if there are hints in the poem for each clue or hint(s) for the first clue only.

  57. HoB is a direct result of finding the correct wwwh and knowing how to proceed.

    There are many HoBs in the Rockies, this one is simply unique in its geographical relationship to wwwh.

  58. You guys want to know where the “exact spot” is in TTOTC? Page 10, between “For Whom the Bell Tolls” and “The Great Gatsby.”

    I’ve always wondered if that is a subtle hint…

  59. Locolobo

    I do agree with your position,in that if hob is found ,there is no need to worry about wwh, or 1-7 lines in order to continue past Hob.BUT,and it is a big but,it is conditional on whether you have understood the big picture or not. IMO,pre HOB lines I.e 1-7, along with other lines in the poem help to give the overall big picture.Hence if you already have the right big picture and somehow find Hob in isolation ,true, lines 1-7 are irrelevant to continue past hob.But if you find hob in isolation,but have not determined the big picture,You can not discard lines 1-7,as they could be important to understand the big picture to continue past hob.All IMHO.

    TT

    • ->April 2, 2013 – – – Jennifer London interview….. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ipvIGaVt7C8 At about 10:47 she asks, “Who’s Brown”……FF replies, “if I told you that you’d go right to the chest”!

      ->Question posted 7/2/2014…… http://mysteriouswritings.com/questions-with-forrest/ :
      Do you think that someone who is sure about the location of the home of Brown could reverse-engineer where warm waters halt? ~Ben Raylor……..

      Thanks for the question Ben.
      If you are sure about the location of home of Brown why are you concerned about where warm waters halt? But to answer your question, sure you could and a few searchers might throw in some gas money for a percentage of the take. Good luck.f
      ………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………..
      Seeker, you said->“Personally” the hoB comment for me was fenn sayin… I’m not giving you that clue.”

      — He definitely didn’t have to answer either question. He has proven that numerous times, in the past. It’s very apparent that he has no qualms about stating he won’t answer, or doesn’t want to answer…..so why did he say anything? He could have just said that’s too much information.

      My whole point is that he did “choose” to answer both questions and with the words he did. Nobody made him say anything and neither statement was something a journalist might have taken liscense with. And neither of his answers are ambiguous. No one has been able to point out to me anything, in his answers, that is left open to interpretation.

      It appears you, like others, are picking and choosing which of Fenn’s statements have relevance to your methodologies and/or solutions. The rest of his statements you want to dismiss as nothing.
      You, and others, do not want to seriously consider these two statements, because of what the implications would be to your methodologies and solutions.

      You cannot show me, in either statement, what you are basing, ->“Personally” the hoB comment for me was fenn sayin… I’m not giving you that clue.”

      Since you have the attitude of, “it’s my ball and we’re going to play my way, because I said so”, I will disengage and let you play with “your ball”. I doubt that I will trouble you again.

      Dal, Goofy and the rest, thanks for indulging me, and your tolerance. Good Luck to All and….adios

      • Loco,

        There ya go again. I make my statement to what I feel, think, interpret an after the fact comment and you come back with “Since you have the attitude of, “it’s my ball and we’re going to play my way, because I said so”, I will disengage and let you play with “your ball”. I doubt that I will trouble you again.”

        But you are doing the same exact thing…

        But you dismiss the other many comments I agreed with your point. and asked at time what about this comment and that comment such as fenn saying if a person ask a question the expect an answer because they ask, i give them one. { and no iim not going back to look it up… we both been around long enough to heard them all.}

        you said. You, and others, do not want to seriously consider these two statements, because of what the implications would be to your methodologies and solutions.

        Seriously? I just got done saying in many post the after the fact comment i don’t like to use… that I use the poem and information from the start. all others are just helpful information but nothing i use for a solve.

        But no sense in going on… Later.

  60. Hi Seeker and everyone,
    My turn for a ramble.. I like the analysis… And yes, I’ve been there for those of you that “know” that area. It’s still a needle in a haystack. On a macro-geographical level it seems easy, but its not. Every rock, tree, bush, etc. becomes endless while you are tracing thru it…. I can’t say its not fun, because that’s the Thrill of the Chase…

    I think FF wanted us to find this “general area” and wanted us to track thru it.. but he holds the keys to the prize..It could take a person weeks, months, being in the search area unless they know the precise coordinates. ..

    I don’t believe he rode a bicycle or even hiked for miles and miles… why would you? If you have ever hidden something.. isn’t it more fun to hide something in plain sight out of view from others that walk right by it?

    Anyone can take an object and walk out in the Desert or Forrest or meadows and just place something miles and miles away from civilization… and chances are it would be found for hundreds of years.

    And here’s where I get stuck! If it is a place where his bones were to rest.. It can’t be in plain view or an area where his body could be easily found… this is a tough one for me. Maybe it is a secret cave? but i don’t think so..

    Also.. the Grizzly populations are full and healthy throughout Montana. Chances are you go deep into the brush, you will have an encounter maybe not? The Chest is not in a Dangerous place, but I don’t think that means that dangerous animals aren’t present. Safety precautions needed going into the Wild.. Always be prepared, right!?

    • justin,

      There was a cave that the fenn family utilized to store their belonging for the next year trip and those items were always there when they returned [ subtle hint? ]. I don’t know if any searchers had discover this or the correct cave. but it was always in the back if my mind. I wish i could find that article / statement again.

      Talking about subtle hints… the pic of the running man [ don’t know who named that pic ] but the shape of the carving in the tree always reminded me of YS lake.

  61. Hi Seeker,
    I recall a story I read they would leave their stuff about a mile into a hidden road… I don’t recall a Cave but maybe I am wrong. As for me, I don’t think I am brave enough to go poking my head in any cave in the back country of Montana..

    In my 20’s, I had no kids and was invisible.. Unless I am armed like Schwarzenegger in the movie Commando.. I may think about it. And yes, that includes a Fire Extinguisher size can of Bear Spray. If you see this being sold, I will be the first buyer. All jokes aside..

    I like to call the Chest a “findable” Dream… its out there waiting for one of us… And like Poker. I don’t think its LUCK, its a matter of Cracking the Fenn Code, having knowledge and Bravery. Like a Fighter Pilot.. We have to have the “Right Stuff” Brains, Bravery and Blind Faith in the solve..

    Many of us know the Blaze…have touched it, seen it and paid our respects to it.. But we still have a lot of work to do.. So close, yet so far away. So bittersweet!!!!!!!!

    • Justin,

      I think i have thought something you maybe relating to.

      a very simple read of the poem with some imagination and notes of the book… reads to me as… Begin where comrades have fallen with tears of sorrow and placed below heavy loads. Look down in respect and follow the instructions to the chest. [ short version ]

      With that thought in mind, what are the clues that lead to the location of the chest. for me that summary maybe the first two clues. if consecutive order is in line, there are seven others to find.

      But to be honest, a comprehensive knowledge of geography doesn’t work for me in this theory.

      Then again maybe it not what i thought you meant.

      • Let’s Tarry on some other clues… Fenn doesn’t like painting with dark colors and sharp edges. Scant means little.. So where does that leave us. Back to a stump! : )

        With so many hidden meanings.. Learning Fenn’s Spanish is a tough subject. I was never good in my Spanish classes.. But if fenns language is nature, I have an aptitude and love for that.

        Fenns poem is a puzzle some of us may have the correct pieces.. But unless we put them together it could be really tough for an individual solve..

  62. Seeker,
    I just re-read your analysis again… Are you sure there are no direct coordinates?? I would think there would be… Please expand on your theory why no direct coordinates..

    We all know FF was a fighter pilot and most pilots love coordinates mixed with the romance of being a mountain man and native american.. I think it all comes together somewhere.

    Justin

    • Justin I just saw this poem… sorry for getting back to you so late…

      The Coordinates where a single clue to not only place you in the correct area but line you up with the boundary line.

      • Hi Seeker,
        Even with coordinates and boundary line.. Over the summer, I spent almost 4 weeks, just shy of 28 days in that target area. I crossed a lake looked on both sides under all the trees and bushes and rocks I could access. Maybe, I did NOT look quickly down.. but never gave up but still came up empty handed, but like Dal not empty spirited. I found some cool things.. like Elk bones, bear scat the size of logs, an old piece of silverware, and an old 300 Winchester rifle round brass. People also Hunt in the area either legally or not legally. I am not sure about the hunting laws in the area. I just try to keep myself alive by avoiding the Browns in the area. Yes, I think the Brown trout can eat you too. I saw one in the nearby lake and thought it was a baby Great White shark patrolling.

        Fenn is Right…. if my search area is correct. It won’t be found by accident because I completed a large grid search following police crime scene search methods and searched far and wide very carefully taking my time.

        I have said before.. and I shall say again. Finding this Chest may be a Needle in a Haystack. I think it was placed in a spot that could rest for Eternity.

        I almost tripped over a rock and below it I did find a strange old calling card… it had these numbers on it. 1771272882355368389984224434449941116556

        • You sound like you know the are well. I have never been. So maybe you can tell me a few things about distance of the area and difficulty of if. Ever been up trail 218?

  63. As most know my interpretation of WWWH was a time period. But a while back fenn’s comment; There are many WWWH in the Rocky mountains and nearly all are north of SF… So that killed my brilliant one of a kind perfectly wrong solution.
    With that said, I want to throw out another thought of WWWH. I thought about the topic of WWWH but I want to take the discussion even farther by saying… the poem may not be All about fenn. Is there a missing ingredient, so to speak, that the poem talks about. So not knowing where to actually put this type of conversation… I figure here would be better.
    I have given thought for sometime that the poem also tell of something else and that may be the reason for the searcher who got the first two clues correct… went on. My theory is that the first two clues are a must to know as without one the other falls flat and if you don’t understand how they work together, the poem can actually lead you away. So this theory is how I see that;

    WWWH is just what it is, all waters. How can you see all waters working into the poem as a single place? this is where I think we fall apart thinking it is a single “small” place. The entire Rocky range is the watershed of the east and west and yes north drainage system. Before ya roll your eyes… what is fenn’s church? Using this system we have and understanding of WWWH, Sorry Dal, but halt, in this case it means change in direction. So I ask, Is it “us” that travels down the canyon or is “it” the water[s]. In almost every reading of the rivers anywhere, the description of the rivers is always Waters. Example; Yellowstone river waters. Can the poem be about the action of the waters… creating and destroying the Range itself? “The end is ever drawing nigh” What is fenn’s dreams and fantasies and where do they go to play? Are these very subtle hints?

    Is fenn cleverly explaining the poem to be the action of the waters and not what is needed for searcher to be traveled? leaving an option most may not easily see… Knowing the first clue… is the resting place of the chest. And why the searchers went pass the other seven clues. The followed what they thought needed to be followed. instead of understanding the significance of where they were.

    Thoughts………….

    • Seeker –

      You confuse me ……………. You have so many thoughts going on at the same time – how can one even begin to answer you.

      I think you are making the finding of the first clue too difficult – and should be only concentrating on that. If you have that wrong – you will be forever lost. It’s not that hard. After all this time – think about how to narrow it down. Then look up how many there are in each state – there’s a list. One will hit you like a ton of bricks – if your thinking outside the box.

      • I have not said what the first clue is in this theory. If I did it would give the location. What I’m saying, is the poem Is telling of the creation and destruction by waters. Begin it where the waters take down the canyon to the lower lever areas of the rivers. Not far would be the highest elevation to the lowest point. We now know that is somewhere between 10200′ and 5000′ leaving approx. one mile, Yet too far to walk means the waters traveling distance themselves, which is over many many miles. So the first three lines in stanza two tell this. The big picture if you will. It not complicated, if you can stop and think that the poem may not be so linear or that the searcher ‘Must’ travel the places explained.

        • Seeker, Am I reading that in your opinion “Not far” might mean the distance from WWWH and the canyon floor? So it could be miles, but it could also be a very short distance like 40ft.? Hope that you are still monitoring this post after all this time. Thanks!

          • LMN,
            You’re reading it wrong.
            The waters cover all if the US and Canada, the canyon is where the water[s] travel simply meaning shear sides and lower levels… the watershed of the RM’s.

            This theory is not for the linear, stomping method. It more a design of what the clue refer to as a whole unit or the start at the beginning comment… If I had to try and match a subtle hint for conformation… My church is the mountains and the river bottoms are were dreams and fantasies alike go to play… Not far, but to far to walk is the movement and travels of the water[s].

          • Thank you, Seeker. I am convinced that you really know this whole chase inside and out! I understand your WWWH concept and see where it could be an accurate (big picture/historical) view. I would like to dialog more on that, later. Right not, to clarify, from the point that WWWH and the water becomes “It,” then “It” on the way to the “canyon down” might only “take” a journey of only 40ish feet to travel down to be within 200′ of the chest? I realize that this may be a transition point from your big picture/ historical journey portion of the poem to the current day steps to go get the bracelet for ff’s grand-daughter. Does this fit your scenario?

          • LMN,

            lol… I Know nothing of anything ~ “in and out” ~ I’d be a fool to say I did or to agree so.
            My only contribution is to give examples of how the poem might be interpreted. Most of my thoughts don’t revolve around the stomping point to point method, so it might be difficult for others to understand, even if I attempt to explain those thoughts the best i can.

            Could “A” canyon journey be only 40ish feet? Sure… but it all depends on how you’re reading the poem and method involved in following the clues.

            In this theory, the answer is No… because there is no individual canyon needed to be traveled… in-fact in this theory… there’s only the understanding of what a canyon is. WWH, Canyon, NFBTFTW… might be individual clues [ but for this theory, no counting of clues are done until we reach the end ] yet those clues refer to one place as a whole and of understanding how they work contiguous / in order.

            This theory in general, shows how the poem can be read that allows all of, what we think clues could be, in consecutive order within the poem, and contiguous as in their connections to each other… without one of those ‘connections’, the theory falls apart, and so does the attempt to solve or decipher the poem.

        • Seeker, understood. Forgive me if this has somehow already been covered. This is a huge post to have to reread and comprehend. In many ways this sounds like the story of the huge Fenn Clovis find that I saw pictures of posted somewhere. Did you already make that potential connection? Do you have more details on the timing, location, etc. of that remarkable discovery?

          • I did attempt to use that information… fenn may have, over the years, research those Clovis points[ style and time period of how they were made] and somehow discovered where they actually were found, and the poem is about the Clovis collection.
            This thought was similar to my glacial theory post. My problem was two folds… how to connect the Clovis to what we think some of he clues are… such as a hoB. For me, the clues should mix well, and to use hoB as Canada symbol and line that up with the USA symbol of the Bald Eagle to bring us into the now known search area, was out of the time line and not really connected. Right wrong or indifferent. I think whatever reading one gets from the poem seems to be of a time period.

            This is why Symbols such as a country’s bird, or animal may work… it also may be completely forcing a solve by not being in a time period theory. Fenn stated he was looking down the road. What exactly that means I don’ know, but i’m pretty sure that we need to do the same, and possible in both the future and the past. I don’t think the poem is “only’ meant for us [ today’s present time searcher ] to find. For someone in the year 3009 to have any change at all… the poem can’t be related to only this time. It doesn’t make sense to me why we would need to do soooo much research to simply understand the poem.

            IMO the poem will tell you what is needed to be known… then and only then is any research needed, and all we really should need, is to brush up on what we should know already… such as, why do so many don’t know of the Coriolis effect? I’m not saying this is a clue for the poem… just simply something of knowledge we should have, at sometime in our lives been told of, learned about, heard of etc. maybe even when we were young and wondered why the water in the bowl drains / circles in one direction as it empty.

            IMO… the solving of this poem will be complicated as in difficult… but we have been warned not to “over complicate” it and even “over simplify” the clues. This is in part, why I find it hard to grasp the concept that the poem is strictly 9 line for 9 clues… stomping out each clue, like a simple road map. All that is to me is a poke and hope to find the starting line… this isn’t a race to the finish line, for me, it’s a challenge of understanding. IMO, fenn is putting us on a learn curve…

            Yet, like one searcher stated his belief, and I agree… in the end the poem should be elegantly designed for all to see.
            And why we should have asked ourselves… “what took me so long?”

          • There is no “reply” button below Seeker’s last post, so I will post it here.

            Seeker; you said, “This is in part, why I find it hard to grasp the concept that the poem is strictly 9 line for 9 clues… stomping out each clue, like a simple road map. All that is to me is a poke and hope to find the starting line…”

            As I have said several times Seeker, a definition of “in the wood” in stanza #6 points the searcher to an exact area in Wyoming. Once you find this area, it becomes the “IN THERE” of stanza #1, and this in turn points you directly to wwwh.

            Following this “simple road map” removes the “poke and hope” theory that you speak of. Once you find wwwh’s on the map simply follow the lines of the poem, and they will lead you directly to the treasure, or so I believe.

            Sure, there will be a stumble or two along the way, but with perseverance, I really do believe that the treasure can be found, and I HOPE to prove this true in September.

            STAY SAFE Seeker

            JDA

          • JD,
            I’m going to be as plain and straightforwards as I can be… for the life of me, I have no clue why you keep replying to my post, especially when you have vocalized that I somehow get under our skin, that you feel I’m rude, and that I have attack you in some form or another etc.. blah, blah, whine… over and over again. You stated you would “never again” reply to my comments… because of those unfounded reason. I’m perfectly ok with that… yet here ya r’ agin’

            So, because i’m bored and done with today’s honeydew list, I’ll play this silly game with you…
            You stated; “As I have said several times Seeker, a definition of “in the wood” in stanza #6 points the searcher to an exact area in Wyoming.”

            So what!!! “you said…”

            The one thing “I” have never claimed is I know a dang thing.

            I know you feel that fenn is sending you secret messages on the blog, and as you said, it’s done this way for ‘ fair play ‘
            and hide behind those three little letters “imo” to make it all find and dandy… I’m calling BS. as I have when you first mentioned this revelation of information you claimed you’re receiving many weeks ago.

            Honestly JD… That is a slap in the face to every searcher involved, that your so high up on the totem pole, you out rank even fenn’s closest friends and family.
            I have tried to ignore your post and only commented to others when anything those searchers/bloggers made reference to about something you might have posted on.

            You have made it clear, for whatever reasons you want to dream up, that you don’t like me and or my post. I don’t give a rats tail be to very clear… so man up and do what you stated. And NO, I’m not going to e-mail you… I don’t like you. Clear as a bell?

          • Seeker,

            What you shared about the big picture WWWH story was interesting because it seemed like a -two layered story- having both a historical context, and yet a current day context. IMHO it may actually tie the Clovis Cache with the present day Gold Cache location and provide the final answer for “why, anyone in their right mind would place a pile of gold in a “special” place and challenge the world to find it.”

            I see a whole new book, there. Forrest Fenn, a very interesting man, indeed.

        • Seeker, Regarding the time line period you said that Fenn stated he was “looking down the road.” That is something I have never seen. Can you provide context or show me a link to look at. Thanks for the above and beyond assist! Yet, that seem to be one of your goals.

          • LMN,
            I don’t mind helping out, but this comment below can be found right here under important info.

            “I’m not flippant about this. It’s not something somebody is going to be able to do on spring break or a Sunday afternoon picnic. I’m looking a hundred years down the road, maybe a thousand years down the road. People don’t understand that.”

            Like other comments fenn as made… this is not the only one on the subject of “down the road”… and I know of at least one audio he mentioned it as well.
            I’ll add, that there are comments from over the years where fenn talks about influencing future generation… and others about the autobiography in the olive jar within the chest.
            Are they all related to fenn’s line of thinking? I’ll let you decide for yourself. Unfortunately, my best advise is, review the years of after the fact comments and make use of them as you see fit… it’s a lot of work, but then again, look at the prize.

  64. Hey Seeker. I dig your work here. I *mostly* read your solve through and I think you have some good ideas: I love the picture I get of the Brown’s Valley Man (I’ve got to research him!) and the “ice free corridor”. I know you got some criticism about over complicating things. I think FF has said both that the solve is straight forward, but also not to underestimate the complexity of the search (reference?). I scantly read the remaining threads so I don’t know if my following comment has been addressed? I remind myself often that FF’s knowledge of “the spot” predates the construction of the poem. So the poem is written as a map to a singularly personal and special location. I believe that many of the clues may also be very personal (which is where simplicity and complexity merge) and probably cannot be identified by “armchair” research.

  65. Have just spent the last two days reading, and trying to understand all of the many ideas expounded in this blog. WOW. The level of thought is mind-boggling!

    The only comment I would like to make is regarding the section where ff says that if one were given the correct hoB, the searcher would easily be able to go to the treasure (my words, not ff’s) This I follow easily. The comments re reverse engineering back to wwwh I found interesting. How some jumped to the conclusion that ff was saying that there would be no need for lines 1-7 I had a GREAT deal of trouble accepting. Or, searchers assuming that there would be no useful information in lines 1 – 7 after knowing where hoB was.

    One could easily reverse engineer back to wwwh, just by looking on a map, locate the location of hoB (given to you by ff) – going upstream NFBTFTW (about 10 miles) and locating a logical wwwh. Pretty easy. Why throw out all of stanza 1? You reverse engineered back to wwwh, which ff said you could be done. He said NOTHING about anything prior to line 1, stanza 2.

    I think that there is vital information in stanza #1, that will be used AFTER hoB.

    comments?

    JD

  66. Seeker …

    Today’s the first time I have seen your solution, as it predates my arrival at this forum. Interesting concept you present. And your ideas could be correct. They’re just a tad too esoteric for me.

    Here are some things you might want to think about …

    “As Humans [i] have gone alone [first] in there [ in time][ the new World ] and with my treasures [ possessions ] bold [i] can keep my [ their ] secrets [ if one is dead ] where…”

    In the above passage, are you “messing” with his poem? Are you redefining his words to fit your preconceived vision?

    When you say:

    “A’s=5.B gives you 2 … Ending with (44)52′ 12″ – 111 23′ 10″ …”

    … you lost me. Are you trying to teach us algebra? And with your reference to some spooky “Browns Valley Man”, how is us West Texas rednecks supposed to know stuff like that; kinda arcane and booky, at least to me.

    But here’s the kicker. You’re flying at this weightless, ethereal, 5 martini level of abstraction, and where do you end up >>> at more or less the same place that more down to earth solutions have arrived at >>> Hebgen Lake.

    Is the West Yellowstone area where you had hoped the treasure would be all along, and you have used the poem subconsciously to create an opaquely serpentine route to get there? That’s the subtext to me, but I may be wrong.

    Not trying to give you a hard time. I appreciate your abstruse thought process … kinda refreshing, in this post simplistic Brown trout era. 🙂

    Question … in the year since you wrote up your dissertation, to what extent if any has your thinking changed, or has it remained the same?

    Ken (in Texas)

    • Ken,
      You asked about “messing” with the poem in reference to the use of ‘ i ‘… I’m gonna have to say, No. The word I actually surprised me when I looked it up. Sure the most common usage is to represent ones self or knowledge of self. However, It can be used as a representation of knowledge of self as a race… such as the human race… especially when used in a “poetic” manner. It also can be used in a narration.. such as the word WE or US to mean more than one. Then add in what the rest of the poem may imply as to stepping into the shoes of ‘ i ‘ or the journey, and in a poetic manner, WWWH can be of a time period or interpret as freeze to frozen ~ hence the glacial period and the journey of I, we , us etc. The meaning is not changed, just simply not common as to its usage. Think of it this way… If the Brown valley man is telling the journey… he would represent himself as ‘ i ‘ to be party in the first, which can also translate to the party being the first humans to the new world or knowledge of self as ‘us’

      If you take a few minutes to look up ” I ” you’ll find books written on the word and its meaning usages, literature seminars about it etc. like I said, I was surprised by the smallest word having a lot to say.
      So in this theory the “who is ‘ i ‘ in stanza 1 2 3 4 was intended to be the Browns valley man… which falls in line with parts of the book’s possible subtle hints… arrowhead etc. for a type of theme of understanding what WWWH might mean. A poem give an author freedom of multiple meanings, usages of words and yes poetic interpretation… WWH for the meanings of word as warm liquid water that halts or freezes or ice. Add this to home being; habitation, and Brown being a proper name [even a given name] such as title, and a story begins to emerge. the story being narrated by ‘ i ‘ being the Browns valley man, as well as ‘ i ‘ later to mean fenn in stanza 5 are both one in the same as a journey taken by them or “us” in different time periods.
      I could go on with my analyzing the usage of word in a poem… but I think you may get the gist now of the thought process.

      You asked about how someone would have knowledge of the Browns Valley man… Well, when reading the poem as someone other then just fenn himself, [ usage of “i”] but still about fenn and really all of “us” as humans [ geography, the study of the surface of the planet and its “inhabitants” ] the journeys we all take… and add how we got here and there and everywhere… simple research of the idea of with the poems, ‘home of Brown’ etc. the information wasn’t hard or to time consuming to find. It was all about looking at the poem differently, then most want it to be. What leans one to reading the poem with this theme, if you will, is fenn’s stories… his love for collecting, his interest in know who made that little arrow head, when was it made, why was it made, how was it made… which brings me to how a “poem” can be used to present information other than simple face value and still be straightforward and clever. WWWH ~ When, where, why, and how… of archeology… one of fenns passions. Could be why he bought the dig site, hunts for artifacts, explores where others normally don’t bother with etc. etc… possible the subtle hints within the book to help with the clues.
      If you take in consideration other words in stanza 1, such as “alone” to mean in the first [ as a usage of the word ] “In there” to mean a place in time, as well as “keep ‘My’ secret where” as to time and who and what the secret is… in this case, the artifact [ treasure; as possession important to one] of an ancient “possessions” discovered with the remains, fenn’s chest full of his personal possession important to him… and will be a trove once found by another… trove; is something value with no ownership… as to treasure is possessions owned by the one those are important to, but not always of value to others…
      Think of your favorite toy as a kid, that cost a dollar… then think of that found 1000 year later by another.

      So the simplest version of this theory is … the journey ” I ” New and Old… past and present. The Journey of “us” in the same concept. The journey of fenn, told by his memoirs and the autobiography within the chest. and even yours and my journey… the next generation… and the influence of the past on us. A full circle look at ” i ” knowledge of self… the when, were, why and hows ~ wwwh ~ being answers.
      So why is it ‘ i ‘ must go and leave ‘my’ trove for all too seek… the answers I already know…. The circle continues with us and future generations to come, but a never ending circle…

      But with all that analogizing words, thinking of their usages, using a poetic manner and the reason fenn chose the avenue of a poem to present the clues etc. Some KiSS person will pop in here and say… that’s over complicating the poem… I completely disagree… “The person that finds it, is going to be a person who thinks and plans and has an analytical mind and uses logic, not someone who has a hunch.” 
      So sure… wwwh could be one of any thousands of bodies of waters. Pick one anyone, eventually you have to come across the correct one, Right? That is if all the poem is, just simple stepping from point to point.

      LOL Ken… are you sorry you asked? Welcome to my mind.

  67. I’m in agreement with much of your assessment of the Poem, Seeker: Just as there is more to Forrest Fenn than is realized; there is also much more to ‘us’ than what “we”…. comprehend.

    Life is a journey never ending or even…beginning; therefore, WWWH
    = the Where, When, Why and How of EVERY living, oxygen dependent… ‘being’.

    We are; each and every one of “us”… connected thru space and time.

    We need to take care of each other.

    • Missouri Jon,
      I never said i have anything figured out… just looking at those WhatIF possibilities. But you seem to have a grasp on things…. what exactly do we all need to figure out that will have us saying “what took me so long?”
      It’s easy to make a fortune cookie comment… how about an explanation to fill in the blanks.

  68. A teacher called out to the class of kindergartners saying, “Look at what is on top of my desk and if you tell me what you see and I will give it to you. ” It was a globe that sat on her desk and nothing else.

    Several spoke up, “A ball…a world…a ball holder…a circle…a holder that tips the ball so you can kick it easier…a round map…some brown land and blue water…a colorful ball with words on it… a spinning thing…mostly nothing…a lot of space for things!” The teacher said, “You are all right in different ways, but I was looking for one answer in particular.”

    A man named Forrest called out to the world saying, “Look at my poem. Figure out what it means and…”

    • LMN, I thought that was what we were all doing…

      Oh! My answer to the Teacher is, an item on her desk. Well, That’s what I “see”

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