Seeker’s Recap of Forrest’s Statements……

JULY 2015

 

Seeker put this collection of Forrest’s answers to specific questions and a few random statements by Forrest  in a comment  but it seems to me comments are often lost after a few weeks so I added it here as a post for easier locating. These, along with Goofy’s “Cheat Sheet” in the tabs above are littered with important ideas that should not be forgotten while considering where Forrest may have hidden his chest.
Thanks Seeker-
and Goofy-

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“Some searchers overrate the complexity of the search. Knowing about head pressures, foot pounds, acre feet, bible verses, Latin, cubic inches, icons, fonts, charts, graphs, formulas, curved lines, magnetic variation, codes, depth meters, riddles, drones or ciphers, will not assist anyone to the treasure location, although those things have been offered as positive solutions. Excellent research materials are TTOTC, Google Earth, and/or a good map.f” 

From Jenny Kile’s Six Question Blog:
1Q) Enthusiasm towards finding your treasure continues to remain strong.  So many people are enjoying the wonderful opportunity you have given them for such a bold adventure. Considering the many years the hunt has been going on, and from your perspective and interaction with searchers, do you feel searchers are becoming closer to solving the clues to the treasure, or further away? Do you feel over time, some searchers have forgotten beginning basics or thoughts they once had, and might benefit going back to them?
There’s a lot brain power being expended on the blogs by some pretty bright people Jenny, and it seems they are having fun. But the great preponderance of searchers don’t comment publically. Very few tell me exactly where they are looking so I don’t know how close they are to the treasure. I’ve said searchers should go back to the poem so many times that I don’t want to say it again here. ff

Six questions yet again: 
3Q)  In your memoir, The Thrill of the Chase, after the poem, you mention there are subtle clues sprinkled throughout that book.  You have said you hadn’t deliberately placed these subtle hints in your book; but have you done so in any of your other writings mentioned in Question two (scrapbooks, vignettes, etc)?  Or, even if maybe not purposely sprinkled in those writings of Q2, would you consider some of those to contain subtle hints too, like in The Thrill of the Chase? 
I don’t want to broaden the clues and hints I’ve written about by pointing them out. What surprises me a little is that nobody to my uncertain knowledge has analyzed one important possibility related to the winning solve. ff

Mr. Fenn, Is there any level of knowledge of US history that is required to properly interpret the clues in your poem. ~Steve R
No Steve R,
The only requirement is that you figure out what the clues mean. But a comprehensive knowledge of geography might help.ff

Someone unfamiliar with your poem receives a message that says “meet me where warm waters halt, somewhere in the mountains north of Santa Fe”. Would they be able to work out where to go? If they can’t, would they need the whole poem, another stanza, or just a line or word to help them on their way? ~Phil Bayman 
There are a few words in the poem that are not useful in finding the treasure Phil, but it is risky to discount any of them. You over simplify the clues. There are many places in the Rocky Mountains where warm waters halt, and nearly all of them are north of Santa Fe. Look at the big picture, there are no short cuts. f 

“The most common mistake that I see searchers make is that they underestimate the importance of the first clue. If you don’t have that one nailed down you might as well stay home and play Canasta.” f

“I warned that the path would not be direct for those who had no certainty of the location beforehand, but sure for the one who did.” f

Over the past half-decade, your challenge for any cavalier spirit to find a valuable treasure chest hidden in the Rocky Mountains sparked a veritable gold rush of knowledge.  Searchers endlessly immerse themselves in study of topics previously unknown to them hoping to gain an advantage in their quest.   I would even go so far as to speculate that some have done more research in relation to the chest than some doctoral students do in completing a thesis.
To be sure, there is value in wisdom.  That value is then increased when wisdom is shared with others.  Which is why I was hoping you might be willing to share a thought or two about something you’ve learned from searchers over the past five years.  Whether related to geography, geology, history or even human nature, I’d love to hear if there’s been anything offered up by a searcher, or searchers, that enlightened you in some way.
Hope all is well!  ~ S&H
Thanks for the question S&H. 
I learn something every day from those who are in the treasure hunt. 
What surprises me is that so many ignore the first clue in the poem. Without it all the searcher has is the memory of a nice vacation. Although many have tried, I doubt that anyone will find the blaze before they have figured out the first clue. f 

Forrest, you have stated that several searchers correctly identified the first two clues in your poem. Could you tell us how many searchers to your knowledge have correctly identified the first clue correctly? Thanks. ~49 Dollars
No 49, I cannot tell you how many searchers have identified the first clue correctly, but certainly more than several. I cannot imagine anyone finding the treasure without first identifying the starting point, although many seem to be preoccupied with later clues. To me that’s just expensive folly. f

Dear Mr. Fenn,
You once wrote: “There isn’t a human trail in very close proximity to where I hid the treasure.”  You also once wrote: “And in close proximity were stone projectiles and crudely made hand axes that could have been 30,000 years old.”
Can you clarify for us your definitions of “close proximity” and “very close proximity?” (e.g. 10 feet, 50 feet, 100 feet, 500 feet, etc.?)
Thanks, Milan
It’s not that easy Milan. Are you asking me to carry a caliper in my pocket? Each “close proximity” is different, relative, and site-specific, as you pointed out. So I can’t answer your question. To an ant a mud puddle can be like an ocean. f

Dear Forrest,
Now that the 2014 search season has ended, can you summarize the results? Ie: is anyone close to the treasure chest? Has anyone given you a solve? Thanks, puttputt.
I know of a few searchers who have been reasonably close to the treasure puttputt, but there is no indication that they knew it. No one has given me the correct solve past the first two clues.f

Hi Forrest,
You once said you walked the 92 miles from West Yellowstone to Bozeman to just experience it. Obviously you were much younger than you were when you hid the treasure. Too far to walk means different things at different ages so I was wondering if you would be so bold as to give an estimate of how far you walked to hide the treasure after leaving your car: was it >10miles, between 5 and 10 miles, between 1 and 5 miles, or less than 1 mile?   ~Thanks, Ron
Ron, your question sounds like a travelogue, but I’ll answer it. No, I don’t want to be that bold. But I will say that I walked less than a few miles if that will help. I just looked “few” up and one definition is “scant.” Why do I sound like I’m talking in circles? f

Would you want the person that finds your treasure to admire the place where it rests? Andrew
Well Andrew, I’m not sure “admire” is the right word but if we twist it a little maybe we can make it work. The word means approval or high regard. So it works. I sure feel that way or I would not have hidden it there. I like the way you think Andrew. f

Mr. Fenn, Is there any level of knowledge of US history that is required to properly interpret the clues in your poem. ~Steve R
No Steve R,
The only requirement is that you figure out what the clues mean. But a comprehensive knowledge of geography might help.ff

 

171 thoughts on “Seeker’s Recap of Forrest’s Statements……

    • This is what happens when things are taken out of context.

      The very first time he made this statement was this –

      “I found that little arrowhead when I was nine and it sent me on a lifelong journey of adventure and discovery. I wondered who made it and caused it to be resting at my feet for 1,000 years, waiting for me to pick it up. I still feel the excitement of that day.

      In the Saharan desert of Libya I discovered thousands of war relics left over from the tank battles of WW-II: burned out tanks and shell casings were everywhere. And in close proximity were stone projectiles and crudely made hand axes that could have been 30,000 years old. I was looking at conflicts piled on top of conflicts. Who can imagine how many…” ff

      So you can see that the second question asked above – was taken out context – and he did not answer it. I don’t suppose you are going looking for the TC in the Saharan desert.

      With all that being said the Clovis points are important – but not necessarily to the location of the TC. IMO

      • I agree inthechase; context is important. Two people can read the same passage or watch the same video and come away with completely different ideas…..Which is why everyone should do the research and watch the videos. It could save you from an expensive goose chase or might give you the insight; all of us have missed, to solve the poem.

    • The context of the statement is important, I agree. But it ‘hints of treasures old and new’. Which may be the first clue.
      Since FF is an archeologist it is worth it to include his interests in that field in our search.
      Notes I’ve made about the paleoindian clovis cultures in the rocky mountains north of Santa Fe are below:

      The Folsom site is eight miles west of Folsom, New Mexico.
      It is the most likely place to start on this aspect of the search.
      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Folsom_Site

      In Colorado the is the Lindermeier site.
      “Scored pieces of hematite were used to extract red ochre for rouge or red paint for their faces.” FF had smudged some of this on the paper of his report.
      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lindenmeier_Site
      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dent_Site

      This article makes a mention of the source of the Fenn Cache being from south of Yellowstone in Wyoming.
      http://www.colorado.edu/news/releases/2009/02/25/13000-year-old-stone-tool-cache-colorado-shows-evidence-camel-horse

      A Folsom site at Hanson, Wyoming, also revealed areas of hardstanding, which indicate possible dwellings

      In all, this topic may dramatically narrow down the search.

      • You now have NM, WY, and CO – don’t think that is going to narrow down your search area by much.

        I don’t think the Clovis points hint can be found in relation to a start point – but only AFTER you have a starting point.

        If IMO you don’t know where to start reading the poem – you will be lost. Hint it’s not – begin.

        • I am narrowing down the search area to archeological sites, not states.
          From the site I may see if warm water halts there. In New Mexico the Dry Cimmaron River halts and goes underground in an area known for archeological sites, for example.
          So by following FFs archeological interest we might find a special place that hints of treasures new and old as the place where we may begin.
          Now I need to find a website that indicates on a map where these digs were.

          • So far I have found lists of ruins, and sites in New Mexico. There are thousands. The Dinetah and Chaco areas have big houses, little houses, Hogans, and other places. I was hoping to find one on the list that could be named some language as brown. I don’t know the local languages. Warm water halts everywhere out there. But it does hint of riches new and old. That is plentifull. I will need another variable to make this theory work.

          • Michael,

            There is such a site that has a house called the “Rainbow House”.

            I have searched there but found nothing. Many think this place is not “North” enough from Santa Fe.

            Scott W

    • I can’t take all the credit Will, most came from Mysterious Writings. Jenny has many more in her collection[ as you know] and I review them from time to time… I even had to ask another searcher for one in particular and with in minutes he responded. I’m sure there are others out there with all the comments… I listed these as they seem important to the first clue… and imo few understand or even know they have. Which has always made me wonder, why?

      That and it keeps me level headed… as Goofy said there are many levels in my head [ or something like that ]

      I hope they help and others add to it…

      • LOL!! Way to go, Seeker! Maybe you got some people to thinking….and you didn’t even have to ask a question! 🙂 🙂

        As you, Halo and others, know, that is just the “tip of the iceberg”. Hopefully that will be the catalyst for others to research Fenn’s words.

        Yep, we’re missing something…..”
        What surprises me a little is that nobody to my uncertain knowledge has analyzed one important possibility related to the winning solve. ff”

        What????? 🙂 🙂

        good luck, guy 🙂

  1. Dal,

    Appreciate moving the post here for all to review and consider. Maybe other will add to it as well. There are so many comments and questions FF has answered, and these I have always kept to memory. As I stated, they help keep me thinking about the poem and not wonder too far off.

    Thanks again for giving it a place.

  2. Thanks for the helpful recap. Important to read in FF context to eliminate pretext.

    Plan to carefully read Forrest’s comments, and reread ‘My Prehistoric Friends’ chapter TFTW.

  3. Hmm. Playing cards. That’s what I think about after reading that. Canasta. Four cards and a joker. Folly… Steamboat, Brown Wynn. Did f collect playing cards?

    • Forrest collected at least one deck of playing cards. Splendid Heritage displays a photo of Apache Playing cards in beautiful shape.

      Canasta requires the player to meld and lay down in sets of 3. The word canasta means basket. Geographically, look for a basket U glacier carved canyon.

        • EC Waters. IMO Forrest does collect playing cards. In one interview while discussing collecting, Forrest mentions his theory was… if I can’t have that one, I can’t have them all.(paraphrased).
          Following his trail of logic, if ff owns one Apache deck, he owns a collection of playing cards. While this may appear a rabbit trail, there is merrit to investigating playing cards as it connects to the chase.

          Forrest open’s his ttotc memoir with an ‘epigraph’ or short quotation intended to suggest the author’s intended theme.

          “Life is a game of poker,
          Happiness is the pot.
          Fate deals you four cards and a joker,
          And you play whether you like it or not.”

          Given, this epigraph ff selected as the doorway to his memoir, perhaps the region of the chest may be proved with manufacturer names as EC Waters cleverly pointed out. The game of cards was invented in the 9th Century by the Chinese and updated by the Egyptians in the 11th century. Most European nations adapted their own style of cards and games by the 14-1500’s.

          the following are U.S. manufactured:

          Tally Ho (pirate; waters)
          Best Bower (forested fen)
          Jolly Joker, (ff playing with us)
          Excellsior (castle “keep” or fort)
          Apache (Southwestern NA)
          Bluff (foothills above canyon)
          Triplicates (solve in threes)
          Hart (f’s heart belongs to Peggy)
          Russel (CM Russell paintings)
          Bicycle (f Jokes that he left his bike)
          White Knuckle (Brave and in the wood>cards)

          History of cards site:
          https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Playing_card#Early_history

          Native American cards
          http://www.wopc.co.uk/usa/apache/

    • @lia020, what if the “epigraph” is actually the first stanza of his clues poem? What if this suggests some clues in the poem are bluffs, like take the canyon down might be take the bluff up? Or nigh is right? What if we end up where we started by applying that first poem to his poem and looking for the poker bluffs?

      I went 3x up to Midway Bluff this trip. Found a bronze blaze, an owl’s tree, a marvel gaze, all from the “Brown” writing on the Moran watercolor “Great Spring of the Firehole River”. Also stopped at Harlequin Lake and Angler’s Bluff. No chest. Great photos. Didn’t make it to Bluff Point but seems off path enough to fit the West Thumb / left thumb over Philly “hint”. Will send pics to Dal this weekend with my trip report.

      • EC Waters, fun to think about anyway. Don’t forget that Forrest has stated that everything you need is in the poem.

        Additionally, he stated everything in the poem is straightforward, Which in my opinion means no Bluffs a red herrings in the poem. I like your idea about the landform Bluffs. You would be interested to know that one meaning for “rainbow” is a Texas hold’em flop with three suits. I’m not much of a poker player but it seems like it fits with your solve.

      • Hey EC – i’ve never played Texas hold’m but what can we come up with that fits the Chase?

        River card
        In the hole
        Tex/F holds’em
        The blind/hide

        What else??

  4. Last night I dreamed that I took a college level course in Fennology with about 30 other students. When the class was over, everyone left even more confused than when we first came in.

      • I have centered on the “not too far but too far to walk”. I think he really means that it is not too far North of Santa Fe. I have been looking at a place that meets that criteria. I also found a small canyon with a blaze on a dogwood tree. I will be in Santa Fe in the near future. I know he grew up with fond memories of Yosemite, but I think when Mr. Fenn says it’s at his favorite spot on earth, I think he simply means anywhere in the forest is a favorite spot, because it is what he loves. I will let you know what I find.

        • @Terry, don’t you mean Yellowstone not Yosemite? Go New Mexico solver/searchers, get ‘er done this season! Interesting post here today, too, I had ‘borders’ on my mind all day and then I read comments here, I was thinking about Borders Book Store as a hint and border lines between CO and NM. One more thing to the guru types on here: Which letter is/was a typo the ‘s’ in answer(s) or the ‘d’ in knowledge? Anyone?

          • Hello, Cholly. I’m guessing neither was really a typo…but my money is on ‘s’ being the typo…if there was one. I really don’t believe Forrest would missppell (sp?) a word in bronze on accident. He appears very cool and calculating to me. I have an explanation for the ‘d’ typo…which I hope to explain later…just like everyone else…I imagine.

        • Hi Terry,

          I’m approaching the poem as a word search. In my solve, Fenn is still using double entendres and cleverly pairing poem lines with the clues in my results. “Not far” becomes “raft to,” thus doubling as the non-walking part of the quest.

  5. IMO…Most pueblos/canyons and rivers go hand in hand. Ive commented for a couple of years the treasure could be found in this type of area. Possibly a small pueblo he found while fishing…warm water halts and changes to cold as it navigates to lower altitudes into a canyon, and could cascade down a waterfall to an open fen area or box canyon, where it again calms to a nice trout area with an ancient puebloi in its walls. That’s MY vision of the location. Good luck all!
    ¥Peace¥

    • BOILING RIVER HOT SPRING (YELLOWSTONE PARK)
      Directions: The Boiling River is located in Yellowstone National Park just outside Gardiner, MT near Mammoth Hot Springs on the Montana border. If you are traveling from Mammoth the main parking area will be on your right after you cross from Wyoming into Montana. If you cross the bridge over the Gardner River you have gone to far. Once you park follow the path back about 1/2 mile designated river soaking area is located.

      Features: Very hot water mixes with the cooler river water to make for a perfect temperature

      http://www.montanahotsprings.net/undeveloped.html#.VzLjAW4rK1s

  6. (Seeker I’m going to respond to your response to me from the nine clues page over here so we can try to keep the comments about your list in one place and not be confusing.)

    I don’t know if you remember when some searchers starting saying Fenn said to “think big”; it’s been a couple years ago I think. I kept asking where they were getting that quote because I never heard of him saying anything like that……No one could give me the source of the information. Fenn finally came out and said he never said that.

    So like you, I was surprised about this latest “look at the big picture” statement. I honestly haven’t figured out what he was talking about in relationship to the question he was asked. But then he has answered several question with non-answers so perhaps that’s what this was….Like I said, I don’t know what he meant if anything..

    You are correct he has said over and over and over we have to start at the beginning, with the first clue. The only source I have for WWWH being the first clue is Dal; and of course the poem…. “begin it”.

    He has said the treasure could be found after solving the first few clues. I call a lot of his answers Microsoft answers; they are technically correct but mostly useless. Question: Hey Fenn, can I go to the moon. Answer: Sure Goof you can go to the moon; you have to look at the big picture. f

    I look at the chase as two separate entities, even though they are related. There’s finding the chest with the poem and a precious few hints he has given out. To me when he has given a clue/hint he has been clear with his statement

    Then there’s “the game”. Trying to match wits with Fenn at his own game is a losing proposition in my opinion. The searchers that have tried have been tied into emotional knots chasing their tails and looking at an endless field of rabbit holes he has dug for them. Don’t get me wrong, I think it’s a lot of fun and interesting to read and listen to what he has to say. Having Fenn take part in and communicate with us makes the search a lot more fun. But it’s very obvious to me he’s playing some of the searchers like a cheap guitar. I think it’s hilarious.

    Perhaps I’m wrong and every word that comes out of his mouth really is a new revelation about the treasure. Maybe one day we’ll find out.

    • I’ll second what you just stated. In my answer to you in the nine clues… i made a suggestion that fenn will not give answers or even help when it comes to the 9 specific clues. With one exception, WWWH is not a dam. I look at all others [ statements ] has helpful information.

      The two answers we were talking about “think Big” and “Big picture” imo were two separate and different answers. One “think Big” refer to hoB, and “Big picture” was about the poem itself when asked is Some one was told meet me at WWWH could they find it.

      For me this is the US history thing, or buried vs, hidden etc. He answered the questions properly with no adding to. To attempt to put both in the same category is, not seeing what the answers actually refers to. Matching “wits” is …IMO is like those questions.

      Here’s a galactic thought… Important possibility… is the poem about fenn? Sure seems that way, right. talking about secreting, treasure[s], why I must go, etc. One thing we know for a fact, the resting place is important to Fenn. But how to get there maybe something altogether different. Is he actually talking about Himself? or is the reason for the poem usage is to tell something different. Why the avenue of a poem? Interpretation is what a poem is all about.

      “I don’t want to broaden the clues and hints I’ve written about by POINTING THEM OUT. What surprises me a little is that nobody to my uncertain knowledge has analyzed one important possibility related to the winning solve. ff” { i used the capitalizing to highlight those word}.

      Fenn has stated he will not aid a seeker. But he will make you think… that is matching wits IMO.

      • Seeker, you asked, “Is the poem about Fenn”. The answer to that would have to be yes, because the poem leads us to his “special place”; but that’s about it in my opinion. I use your own question to him on Jenny’s blog to justify that line of thinking.

        Other than the poem describing how to locate the Trove and one of its purposes to encourage people to get out of the house and away from electronics, is the poem designed to convey a deeper significance? Is there a subtle message you are sharing with the reader and hope they realize? ~ Seeker

        No Seeker,
        The poem is straight forward with no subterfuge in sight. Someone in an email asked me if I didn’t know where the treasure was, and could have the answer to any clue in the poem, which would I choose. I think that question is so funny and it makes me wonder how Jenny’s readers might answer it.f

        I take his answer to mean there is no mystical, mysterious, hidden, or any other message in the poem. It’s straight forward and its only purpose is to lead us to the treasure.

        He obviously does have some things he wants to share with us and perhaps enlighten us about. He wants his opinions known and how he has lived his life to be recorded for posterity. He uses the poem and the chest of gold to get our attention.

        There are many things he has written and spoke about that I find interesting and enlightening. One of those things is how he disagrees with the academic elitists and their handling of antiques and artifacts; but that has nothing to do with finding the treasure in my opinion.

        • Yep… lol use my own question against me. How can I argue with me?

          The thought process was, what if the poem related to example; maybe his father and the clues work around that premise. or Maybe something else that would be a subtle hint in the book to explore, not a clue, but a thought.

          We all do it in one form or another…with History, flying, fishing, dogs, bears, etc.

          I agree i’m reaching but at this point, reaching is not out of the question.

          • Actually Seeker, I thought you had a great question. It was well written and concise. And I found his answer equally concise and helpful. There are no hidden messages to be unraveled in the poem. All we have to do is figure out where he is talking about.

            I certainly understand reaching 🙂 ……..I think the simplicity yet enormity of finding a ten inch box in the Rocky Mountains with the sparse amount of information we do have drives people to start reaching for and creating clues that simply don’t exist.

            I’ve been guilty of that many times. I already know the landscape of the Rockies, but it still takes one more trip to the spot I’ve come up with to slap some sense into me. I don’t know how many canyon rims I’ve stood on and said to myself, “Good Gawd man what were you thinking”.

    • IMO … “You ONLY need the poem” … is about 85% right.

      Without the book, would you know that the TC is in the Rockies north of Santa Fe? Would hunters cluster-search Hebgen & YSNP without the stories? We’ve found false items in the stories. False things in a memoir are not unheard of, but if an author knows they are false and includes them, they usually serve some ego-saving purpose. False content in a hunt-puzzle is of a different order than false content in a memoir. Red herrings serve a legitimate logistical purpose in a puzzle. I don’t think ‘delay’ is the purpose in this case since a 1000 years is the stated outlook, so they must be there to amuse the reader (the author’s creative entitlement), or, to redirect/confuse/mislead the hunter. IMO, the book is the ‘big picture’.

      • OS –

        I like your ideas.

        I especially like your last statement – the book is the ‘big picture’.

        I will take it a little farther and say that maybe the big picture is in the book. Now, what would that be?

      • OC,

        I’m not sue if your responding to my post. But I’ll take a shot at your question.

        I won’t debate red herrings. But to answer the first question…”Without the book, would you know that the TC is in the Rockies north of Santa Fe?”

        The Book never Mentioned the Rocky Mountains. Only the mountains North of SF. By that conclusion the chest should never be anywhere else but the Mountains in NM .

        No the book did not lead to The “Rockies”… My theory / solve did from just the poem.

        Before the release of the statement “Rocky Mountains” {years later } folks were all over the Map, and not the Map from the TFTW . Searching Arizona, Utah, Idaho, Kansas, California almost any Mountain in a northerly direction of SF etc. In fact it was even thought of That SF could be in another state. Which was later clarified.

        IF the poem can not be solved [ no matter how difficult ] without the book to GIVE clues, then imo the poem is not what was stated just before… “So i wrote a poem containing nine clues that if followed precisely, will lead to the end of my rainbow and the treasure”

          • Hey J I think that “S” is an extra, he took it from the poem an put it at the end of the chase. Treasure(s) is plural for a reason but not really, so where does it go, it has to be put somewhere. Answer or answers but that “S” is key.

          • Undercover, that s in treasures, imo, belongs there. S in answers, where that belongs, is that your reference?
            Sorry, trying to burn a few early morning brain cells. 🙂

          • Okay

            The cars are a big deal imo. The last radio interview, ff said something about a 38 Plymouth he is looking for… Have you seen the 1st Superman comic book. Action Comics #1. It is superman holding above his head a 37/38′ Plymouth/Desoto. The comic book came out in 1938.
            The reason I found this was because of Nic Cage (Researching National Treasure). His was stolen about 15 years ago, but was recovered after the book came out. There were 2 of them purchased from an auction in 2010 one of the dates were 2/22 and the other was 3/29. Both were anonymous.
            Lets say the chest is a metaphor.. The word chest could be “S” and the “DI(e)”amond around it. Take the chest and go in peace (S Die) Or Reeves maybe..

            There is a possibility that there may be more that 1 treasure (chest) in different places that ff placed. And that is why he took two trips..

            One of the creators of Superman was Joe Shuster. There was a book written by WP Kinsella called Shoeless Joe. It involves alot with “JD Salinger and The Catcher in the Rye”. One of the characters name is Gypsy as well.

            There is a alot more that goes to this, but you get my drift.

            I think FF is saying something completely different than what we are seeing, or what other/most people are seeing.
            That is why nothing has been found. The poem has 2 different meanings all together.. Treasures is plural, because maybe someone like Peggy helped him do all of this, or Crayton. If treasures is a person and a thing, then FF didnt do this by himself.. Superman was bold

  7. It’s nearly impossible to believe there’s no knowledge of history involved in the poem when much of the book talks about history and legacy like some bruce springsteen song talking about the old times.

    • DanS,

      The way I read that Q&A is the poem doesn’t refer to “US” history. Not “no knowledge of history involved” That may seem semantics to some. I just see FF answer the exact question presented. and when he can’t find a way to answer the question with out revealing something major… he skips it. An example of this was when asked …is the Blaze in the poem or only in the field?…

      30 minutes later, he declined to answer it. { Q&A, Mysterious Writings }

      So does Bruce Springsteen have anything to do with the solution? My opinion … No. Is it possible that a lot of folks overkill the book to be a “must” to solve the poem… Yes, IMO.

  8. Seeker, without the book you wouldn’t know there were 9 clues. Heck, without the book, no one would be searching for a treasure. They can’t be severed. I rest my case.

    • Q: Are there clues in the TTOTC book? “Yes, because the poem is in the book.”
      Q: Are there clues in the TFTW book? “Yes, because the map is in the book.”
      Q: Are there subtle hints in the TTOTC book? “Yes, if you can recognize them.”
      “All of the information you need to find the treasure is in the poem. The chapters in my book have very subtle hints but are not deliberately placed to aid the seeker. Good luck in the search.”

      Fenn stated, he wrote the poem to have an avenue to put the clues out … Q&A MW.

      If I located it, i’ll post it later.

      These seem to me… to say exactly what the Author has said all along. “All of the information you need to find the treasure is in the poem.” In short all you need is the poem.

      • I agree, and because he has said there are many places that warm waters halt north of Sante Fe (paraphrase); I think the first step (first clue) needs to narrow that down, As in what State. IMO

      • Seeker, IMHO, your conclusion, “In short all you need is the poem,” is badly misleading many searchers.

        The statement, “All of the information you need to find the treasure is in the poem,” requires an understanding of the information.

        We should listen to Forrest’s comment as to how he would approach finding the solution.

        “Here is what I would do. Read my book in a normal manner. Then read the poem over and over and over, slowly – thinking. Then read my book again, this time looking for subtle hints that will help solve the clues.” f

        For those having a hard time getting started with the first clue, take Forrest’s advice. 🙂

        • Without TTOTC, TFTW, Journal of a Trapper, Seventeen Dollars a Square Inch. The Secrets of San Lazaro Pueblo, Google Earth, Topo map and the scrapbooks. You don’t stand a chance. The poem is information… In order to synthesize that information you need additional materials (listed above) IMO

          • rov show me the gold then we can talk, if your going to parody something Fenn said please don’t because I don’t believe you are authorized to do so. In other words Forrest is best left to those skilled of intellect. Those who think they know everything are an annoyance to those of us who do. IMNSHO

        • Good luck rebel!

          I’d rather take Forrest’s advice:

          Here is what I would do. Read my book in a normal manner. Then read the poem over and over and over, slowly – thinking. Then read my book again, this time looking for subtle hints that will help solve the clues. f

  9. Thoughts on a starting point or where to start.

    The debate on start in stanza 1 or stanza 2 has been around for sometime. Even the talk about stanza 5 as the starting point as well. Here’s the thought process on my take of stanza 5. We the readers are asked a question, and the Author gives the answers in the form… I’ve done it tired and now I’m weak. The possibility maybe a Medicine Wheel. The hints of tired and weak / leaving a clue to such.

    Should this be the first clue or even the first two clues. Could it explain that some searchers told where they were and not known it was the first actual clue[s]?
    Could this explain the importance of the first clue and overlooked as most see stanza 1 or stanza 2 as the start. maybe even those who where there.

    I know… what about consecutive order for the clues. Well fenn did say you need to know where to start… Think about that for a moment before saying it’s not straightforwards. Just ask yourself about the question and the reason for it.

    Yep… food for thought… on many levels.

    • You are correct the debate about that has been ongoing for a long time and I’ve given it some thought over the years.

      Since many people have solved the first two clues it leads me to believe that the first clue is WWWH……Which I believe is common thinking amongst most searchers.

      Do you think that many people could have figured out the same alternative first clue and also emailed Fenn about it? If that were true, it would seem the alternative first clue would be well know amongst us searchers; don’t you think?

      • Why would it be? “well know” i mean. Fenn stated a few searchers got it but may have not know as the walked / went passed the other seven.

        Just the mention of a Medicine wheel or that they were at one could be an indication of the first clue[s]. The other question is what is a few… not unlike the Big Picture …it needs perspective to make sense. Maybe others can chime in on if they visited a Med. wheel on their searches to get a better perspective of many or few.there are so many types of these examples: the mud puddle looks like an ocean to an ant. Very close proximity. etc.

        Out of 30,000 searchers if only 1% search this… That’s a small percentage, but that is also 300 searchers.

        The point is more leaning towards where to start. If not to start at the beginning of the poem itself… isn’t that leaving out stanza one? Or could it be that stanza 2 starts the other seven clues? which ever way one looks at it, WWWH is a very important clue but maybe not the first.

        • I see what you mean…..but he has said “several”, “many”, and “lots” of people have solved the first two clues.

          Perhaps I’m completely wrong but I can’t imagine an alternative first clue being so common and us not knowing about it or come up with it ourselves.

          • I won’t name names, but i know of 7 or 8 that have talked with me about it. and that is just little old me.

            I think you can come up with some yourself right off the top of your head. But why did the not know that it may have been the first clue? and why is it no one has give fenn a correct glue passed the first two… To his knowledge anyways.

            Just ramblings and wondering

          • I’ll add this as well Goofy, I have a hard time thinking WWWH as the first clue, just for one fact. if it is a body of water or where waters meets etc. That is a lot more than i want to count… and should it be so. Why has no one got past that correct clue[s]? That doesn’t make sense to me.

          • I don’t know, but we could ask the same question regardless of what the first two clues are. How can that many people get the first two clues correct and completely miss the others.

          • Exactly… number count at the moment is moot. What is missing, them not knowing they had the first clue or why they were there in the first place.?
            I think there is more to the first clue then just finding the correct place… is all I’m saying… so i’m thinking of a place that needs to be known for a reason and not just a starting point.

  10. Goofy, Seeker, and everyone who is a thinker in this debate, “So hear me all and listen good.”, the crafting of this poem took many, many years, and the EXACT words ff used should be the only key we all have in common. So imagine the phrases he uses, like; “And hint of riches new and old” or “Begin it where warm waters halt” and “Put in below the home of Brown”.

    Let us all seek to find those exact words somewhere else, so our reference point for a spot of (and in) (an exact) “geographical location” can be found, that location must relate to those EXACT words he wrote in our guide, which is this poem.

    I know each of us have our “impulses” on just where those locations exist, and what they mean, but it is not going to be our impulses that solve this puzzle. It will be the “EXACT” wording ff used, when all is said and done. Agreed?

    For example: We all know what our definition is of www halt, however ff has said there are many places www halt, so where is that exact wording in existence?

    I have said on this blog that warm is not hot, and the only place I have ever seen those exact words “where warm waters halt” used is in each and every one of the various states in this “quest”, ie that is where the (local) State Game and Fish Department’s designate on each river throughout the Rocky Mountains that end up having warm water species of fish and therefore change their regulations, this is known well to ff, and that is exactly what he said “www halt”. PERIOD, no more debate? Was he not a fishing guide in his younger days?

    Now consider riches new and old? What is your take? If this is a clue then it must relate to a certain state or location, correct? If it’s a clue? If not, then discard it. So let’s assume it “is” and you can answer me, if you do not think it’s a clue, and why… But of ALL the states and locations in this quest where would you think this line refers to?

    Now if we “take it in the canyon down” we need a canyon that has a stream or creek or river where cold water halts and warm waters begin. That condition exists (per ff) in many streams and rivers that leave the Rockies, but in his (line) the statement he expresses does eliminate many, many possibilities of geographical starting points, and concentrate us into an area (s) where a river turns warm, like say the Missouri, Rio Grande, Arkansas, etc. In conclusion; with this (if it actually is) clue we can start to narrow the place to start our solve/search.

    Now lets see what you can do with “Put in below the home of Brown” and how many of us believe this is the 3rd, 2nd or which clue?

    What I am trying to start here is a debate, conversation, or a simple method which, Goofy, Seeker, and everyone who is a thinker in this debate, “So hear me all and listen good.”, the crafting of this poem took many, many years, and the EXACT words ff used should be the only key we all have in common. So imagine the phrases he uses, like; “And hint of riches new and old” or “Begin it where warm waters halt” and “Put in below the home of Brown”.

    Let us all seek to find those exact words somewhere else, so our reference point for a spot of (and in) (an exact) “geographical location” can be found, that location must relate to those EXACT words he wrote in our guide, which is this poem.

    I know each of us have our “impulses” on just where those locations exist, and what they mean, but it is not going to be our impulses that solve this puzzle. It will be the “EXACT” wording ff used, when all is said and done. Agreed?

    For example: We all know what our definition is of www halt, however ff has said there are many places www halt, so where is that exact wording in existence?

    I have said on this blog that warm is not hot, and the only place I have ever seen those exact words “where warm waters halt” used is in each and every one of the various states in this “quest”, ie that is where the (local) State Game and Fish Department’s designate on each river throughout the Rocky Mountains that end up having warm water species of fish and therefore change their regulations, this is known well to ff, and that is exactly what he said “www halt”. PERIOD, no more debate? Was he not a fishing guide in his younger days?

    Now consider riches new and old? What is your take? If this is a clue then it must relate to a certain state or location, correct? If it’s a clue? If not, then discard it. So let’s assume it “is” and you can answer me, if you do not think it’s a clue, and why… But of ALL the states and locations in this quest where would you think this line refers to?

    Now if we “take it in the canyon down” we need a canyon that has a stream or creek or river where cold water halts and warm waters begin. That condition exists (per ff) in many streams and rivers that leave the Rockies, but in his (line) the statement he expresses does eliminate many, many possibilities of geographical starting points, and concentrate us into an area (s) where a river turns warm, like say the Missouri, Rio Grande, Arkansas, etc. In conclusion; with this (if it actually is) clue we can start to narrow the place to start our solve/search.

    Now lets see what you can do with “Put in below the home of Brown” and how many of us believe this is the 3rd, 2nd or which clue?

    What I am trying to start here is a debate, conversation, or a simple method which, we, as searchers (I am going on 29 searches) we might have common ground, you know, like, the “Founders’ of the Declaration of Independence” finally agreed on ” WE THE PEOPLE” So in this hunt:

    These searches are voyages to seek out the Treasure hidden in the Rockie Mountains, where new life and new civilizations have displaced the old, where, we boldly go (or go boldly) where no man has gone before. Except maybe ff.

    http://www.constitutionfacts.com/us-declaration-of-independence/read-the-declaration/

    I see ff as someone who should have been born 150 years ago, So today I wish to remember people who, like ff. were good, yes, even”great” citizens, you know, like that committee ,which and who committed their fortunes and lives to the struggle of freedom, those patriots included Jefferson, Benjamin Franklin, John Adams, Robert Livingston, and Roger Sherman.

    Long Live the Republic, the USA

    PS Congrats to our Women’s Soccer Team! Can I get and AMEN from you guy ‘s

    Tom Terrific

    tomterrific1947@gmail.com

    • Yes Tom – Congrats to the USA Women’s Soccer Team !!!
      It was a great game and fun to watch – they really had their act together.

      Re; your exact word theory – I have to respectfully and partially disagree. I think if it were that easy – it would have been found by now.

      I think the solve involves both linear and nonlinear thinking. Words are used with both straight logical thinking and also creative thinking. That still goes along with the poem being straight forward – just a tweek if you will.

      Just my humble little ole opinion.

      Thanks for your thoughts. I think your half right – 🙂

      • Architects, of whom ff has said he felt like, in building a 3 dimensional object on a two dimension expression, which In the Chase, you allude to in revealing linear and nonlinear images.

        The problem with expressing those concepts is, what you are relating to, of which, you and I are trying to expresse is problematic because it is said so early based on our conjecture and not his logic, it is in (our) interp of those early clues in this poem, remember only 2 have been solved and those who solved them may not have known, so if that is so, we must first, as searchers’ or pathfinders, and or builders agree on its foundation, which is best shown in the exact words he used, those exact words are more likely to lead us to a concrete solve in building/traveling on his foundation.

        REMEMBER that even a road, a pathway needs that foundation to stand the test of time and the element on its long term existence and survival.

        Not unlike a pyramid or structure that can (or cannot) be built with the assurance or (lack of) a firm starting place, ff’s quotes like “come and see my mansion built upon shifting sands” they must be understood in how “it” is presented in his poem and how he designed it to stand the test of time, like the story/poem of “Kismet”.

        Until we look at the precise foundation… his exact words first, then we cannot expect to decipher those abstract ideas that you, and we all are grasping for.

        Tom T

        • Tom –

          You are right about looking at how an architect builds. Oh my, you are such a linear thinker.

          An architect also looks at esthetics. Non -linear thinking.

          I know we need a firm place to build upon – We are in agreement there.

          But possibly that is just the starting place – and perhaps HOB – then what –

          I somehow think you are making this too hard -simply by a limitation.

          For instance the word “wood” to me is linear – it simply means wood.

          The words “old and new” are nonlinear as they describe something.

    • TomT,

      I just sat for second to check the blog and read your post. I have a lot of comments but not the time at the moment. Although my very first thought was, Is the first clue pointing to a state? Example in my wonderful, brilliant, one of a kind, galactic theory… the state doesn’t come to me… with reading the poem the way I did… till later. This maybe a fault of mine or maybe a fault of others thinking the first clue is about a state. Just something to throw back at you for now.

      Nothing wrong with a good debate… maybe we can find / narrow down the important possibility Fenn is referring to.

    • Hiya Tom

      Good thoughts! I’m working on graphic layouts of my solve from beginning to end. So far what I’ve found is mostly people can’t understand the poem but if you show it graphically people are amazed. I completely agree with you on “here me all and listen good” “put in below the hoB” “BWWWH” etc….all are knowable physical locations that have gps coordinates…I disagree with Seeker of course IMO

      • EEC,

        Whaaaat? you disagree with me? lol that’s a first.

        I get it when folks say my theory is too complicated. But almost all my locations are physical and can be travel if you like… They just look different today. I also understand that folks like a single meaning for a single clue … WWWH must be water… ok In my theory [ and that is all it is till proven right or wrong ] My understanding of what a clues is show a one and only location with out the guessing or having 1000’s to choose from.

        That’s the point of this conversation now. to try and eliminate the guess work and find out what we’re not seeing. Well that’s the idea anyways. And Imo we need to put all our brilliant, hard worked, own perfect little solves aside and think fresh.

        I’m not a true believe in a consensus type idea. example 25% believe in Bigfoot… 25% believe in aliens visitation / abduction… 25% believe those two groups don’t believe in a god and 25% believe the others groups are idiots.

        But I am and always have been willing to give it a try. Clear heads, and have a go at it.

        • That’s great Seeker it’s just that all my clues are consecutive and in the same state. I don’t think it’s that abstract else how would you lead someone to a 1 foot area.

          • The title ” abstract ” thinker was a given name by someone… well let say just someone. The idea behind my solve is actually a step by step set of movements, just not thought of a that way. I use the words journey and travel and even story because it seems to be that. I also used common knowledge that any school teaches children and should be known to all. and yes the full solve brings me to just that a precise spot.

            But to stay on this thought of a state or a specific place to start. may I ask how you or the poem came to that conclusion and was it your first clue?

          • As matter of fact yes Seeker and sorry for the delay. The blog appears inundated. The line that lead me to a specific place and state is. Begin it where warm waters halt. That line has all the necessary info to find the starting point. I can’t point out what it is that Fenn is doing without jeopardizing my spot. I have enough confidence after 13 trips to return again and search with additional electronic equipment…shortly. The area is a jungle of boulders and high grass so it may take some time to know for sure. You asked if my starting point was my first clue, the answer is no. I have “as I have gone alone in there” as my first clue.

          • Well, lately i have been thinking of a different method. Goofy and i were talking about it the other day. it seems to me that the first clue [s] is a much know, not just to get started …but to understand there maybe a use for it. and why other searchers may have not know it was the first clue or the significance of it.

            And i’m going to put it out there. WWWH may just be the first clue in understanding the solve but the first clue[s] get you to the spot. does that sound like a contradiction? maybe not. The question in the poem always caught my attention and the best I could come up with is a Medicine Wheel. There are many of them but they also group in a circle that covers most of the Rockies, Canada and other states.

            Is there a meaning to the wheel that can be seen with the clues. I have tried, but to be honest i have fallen short. But the larger combine wheels seems to work the best when using the clues. the problem is using the correct combination of the wheels to match the clues or what seems to be clues in the poem.

            The other problem is trying to figure out which wheel to start at. it’s a theory in progress and has lead to physical areas but it is difficult. Each ritual or spiritual travel if you will, takes an individual on a path or blaze if you will, and finding that path is what i’m attempting to do. If correct it would be a path that Fenn took himself or one he designed.
            Does anyone else here Wolf laughing?

            of course this would mean you would need to start understanding the poem at the question and answer and start the clues / path at WWWH. It still leaves the poem straightforwards and the clues in consecutive order… it’s just knowing where to start.

  11. Imagine this: As I have gone alone in there…..: Because I went in there with my father before?

    Does any know that Forrest once said” My father would know where I hid the Treasure.” Can you tell me who he said it to?

    Also, And hint of riches new and Old……: Perhaps New and Old Mexico?

    Some one else needs to answer the next……..: Line

    tom t

    • If I may add to the good thoughts presented here…..

      I think none of ff’s clues point out a U.S. “State”. He is thinking of a place established before the U.S. was established. Maybe the state of “New Spain” when the Spanish conquerors declared it so. So I think of places and features seen by ancient settlers and built upon in layers by succeeding generations. Like buffalo jumps, tar pits, ambush points along game trails, Pueblos, and medicine wheels.
      His father may have known of the place if ff spoke of it or by knowing where ff went, but I think he went in to this special place with his brother who “should have been buried standing up” (to paraphrase ff).

      • PirateJim,

        I think you hit the nail on the head. And Tom may agree[ i’ll let him speak for himself though].

        Some guide lines to follow maybe… such as the FF comments above. Narrow down comment that can be helpful to this conversation. “EXACT” wording ff used,”

        Just a thought.

        • TTOTC pg 57; (referring to Skippy) “We should have buried him standing up.” Many ancient warriors and sometimes royalty were buried standing up. I would believe ff was referring to Skippy as a warrior. Suggests an ancient spot. Maybe where there are other warriors buried. Also burial places were seen as “unclean” in the old world an often marked with lime so that they could be avoided. Lime would make a good blaze but so far I don’t think this is “the blaze”.

          • Pirate Jim, you are onto something…

            Skippy unfortunately drowned in 90′ of water in Cozumel Mexico in a cave, did you know that Cozumel means “Swallows” in the native dialect spoken on Cozumel Island Mexico? In Spanish we say Golondrinas and did you know that La Cueva (cave) and Golondrinas are next to Rainsville, NM?

            Just sayin if it were exactly 90 miles round trip from Santa Fe, NM that would be quite a coincidence? Right?

  12. Quite a lively discussion lately. Thought I would add my two cents worth. First, I do not believe the poem alone will lead you to the TC unless you know who FF is and his life story. If you look at the chase and what it encompasses, it is FF’s expression in a poem of a generous act designed to be his last and dying act. IMO most people want to be remembered for something. Therefore, you must know the author of the poem in order to interpret the poem.

    Second, I beleive that FF has given enough additional clues to find the treasure. Unfortunately, we as searchers have not sorted through his relevant clues and his other stories in order to determine the location. There are indeed clues in some of FF stories and also his responses that match with the poem. Others however, do not match with the poem.

    Third, IMO you can get to the treasure with the poem if you know the precise starting and ending spot of the chase. The clues are in order and they do have a geographical signature which matches to the poem. However determing the WWWH and THE BLAZE are necessary in order to follow the poem.

    Fourth, the increase in chatter lately leads me to believe that someone has sent forrest information indicating that they are close to the location but have not been able to solve the poem. Perhaps they sent him a picture by accident that had them in front of the location. Or maybe described a landmark.

    Finally, I really thing FF wants this to be found in his lifetime. He has given way too many additional clues for him to no want it to be found.

    Wheat harvest if finally over and I am back on the case.

    • Dear “End of the Chase”, I assume you have completed the “Winter Wheat Harvest” I pray it was a profitable crop!

      I am sure you understand that Forrest, when he was young spent many of his hours harvesting, fishing and hustling an income, because that is what he and we did in our youth just like you.

      ff probably is truthful about saying “If the TC is not found in his lifetime that is OK”

      Forrest is not in a hurry to end any part of this Quest, in fact, it must sustain him in some way, perhaps we would do well to acknowledge (acknowlege) that he gets a KICK out of us slinging arrows into the darkness in search of the Elusive Butterfly we call the “Chase” ..

      What we are left with are the bones of this poem, what is “timeless” in its expression? Riches new and Old? Heavy loads and water high? The marvel gaze? Cold and brave in the Wood?

      Those words will be remembered some day when we all say, now I understand what he said and meant, that is:..it all seems so simple and clear!

      I do hope that whoever finds it has really figured out the intricacies of this poem since I have not been able to solve..

      Tom T

    • Interesting thoughts. Wouldn’t it be funny if someone did take a picture of themselves in front of the spot! I think he does want it to be found because he gave away many clues/hints. Glad you are able to return to the chase. I had to take a break due to spinal issues and severe pain. I hope to recover in about a month. I doubt if I will be able to lift or move the chest, but if I see it, I will take a picture.

  13. Say Folks,
    Can anyone buy the ‘Park’ (YNP) in the simple, big picture as having gone in alone and : treasures new (the cache) and old (family memories)??

    • Works for me. The one thing that caught my attention about YS was the canyon. Grand Canyon of YS. Two major / popular canyons in the USA and one is now out of the running.

      I have a question as well. Does anyone one know if a “claim” can be given to another without being registered in some way but that person hold the documents to prove it. and if so can those document be passed on with out the claim being registered prior?

      • Hey Seeker, I don’t know the answer yet either, but are you referring to mining claims or land “quit claim deed”? I’ll try and research it. Are you already doing so?

      • Hey seeker,
        in my most humble opinion, I believe it would be a living trust that lists the bearer of the “autobiography” as the rightful owner of the chest thereby avoiding a battle with his heirs in probate court. Or a deed to the land which the chest is found upon, but it would have to be on private property in that scenario. Here is a definition from the American bar association, “A living trust is one of the two main ways to avoid probate. (The other is joint tenancy or survivorship.) One of the purposes of probate is to determine the disposition of the property you leave at death. Since the trustee of your living trust owns that property, there is no need for probate.”

          • That can be a attorney and I don’t believe that it has to be a recorded document until the trustee has self-appoint after the time of passing

          • A trustee is not necessarily the beneficiary, let’s be clear, the trustee is responsible for allocating the trust. In some cases to a third party, the beneficiary. I really think Forrest would have to do this to avoid the possibility that his dying wishes would be legally sidestepped by a probate judge. I am not certain the beneficiary would need to be named formally as the trustee is named. Basically Forrest no longer owns the treasure, a law firm has legal ownership until such time that a beneficiary “named” by Forrest in the document within the chest comes forward to take possession. Then you pay tax and Uncle Sam is not an issue either. I may have put too much thought into this, but it really got under my skin thinking that the Feds could take what was mine. Also this is again only my opinion not advice from a lawyer, any lawyers want to weigh in?

      • The purpose of asking claim information was, as blazeone mentioned on trust, deeds etc. Even though it has been talked about before… mostly for tax reasons, which I don’t worry about. The fact would eliminate or shrink possibilities of the overall search area.

        And one possible explanation of “title” to the gold. it’s a long shot at best to investigate as a thrust can be in any name unrelated to a person[s] one simple example was the winners of a lottery ” the three amigos” { a simple example only}

        it may also explain could fenn actually know of the chest recovered. Again I’m not worried about that either. So how much ” out of my hands” and “thought of everything” comments can help in the search? If the legality was thought of and the process taken… the one thing that comes to my mind is a confirmation of a correct area the chest could be located. the other though is, it could backfire in your face just to eliminate and area just for those reasons.

        Thoughts I have put on the back burner for sometime now, but have wondered recently if it would help a solutions? I doubt it… but i was bored and had time to check out the information. Thanks Blazeone and 42 for the info.

  14. Greetings all,

    Just a newbie here enjoying the discussion. I’ll be lurking a while until I get the hang of things.

    SWWOT (Some Where West Of Toledo)

    • Since this is in the heart of my search area, I feel it should be posted here.

      I do not know if this story will be well received by other searches, but somehow WE are all like, and admire, this young man from Sacramento CA, who was brave and in the wood, he, who unfortunately became; a “candle in the wind”.

      It seems odd and poetic that this Mountain Range and the hometown of this “brave and in the wood” young boy scout have synonymous names.

      The tragedy described in the video below, took place on June 27th 2015 in “Sangre De Cristo Mountains” at “Philmont Scout Ranch”, which is the range immediately north of Santa Fe, NM near Cimarron, NM. It is a very wild and pristine place, in fact, Cimarron means wild in Spanish, just as the valley above is know as the Moreno (Brown) Valley. This range continues into Colorado and contains some of the highest peaks in the Rockies, so to me, it is no place for the meek, this could have happened to any of us who are brave and in the wood.

      http://www.kob.com/article/stories/s3847007.shtml

      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sangre_de_Cristo_Mountains

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NoOhnrjdYOc

      Tom T

  15. Hi everyone,

    I’d really like more information on the elevation. I’ve seen many people stating that the treasure is under 10,200 feet, but I haven’t been able to track down the original source. Someone mentioned that it was in True West magazine, but I couldn’t find it on their website. Can anyone confirm, using primary sources?

    Thank you!

    • Groundscorer –

      The original source was Forrest Fenn. Just use google – and you will find it. Just type in Forrest Fenn and 10,200 ft. You will be doing that a lot. 🙂 Happy Hunting.

    • Groundscorer; Fenn made the comment to a reporter from True West Magazine and it was printed in the Dec 2013 edition as a update to the original article. He and the reporter had lunch together and the reporter asked him for one more clue and he said it was located below 10,200 feet.

      Recently he said 10,000 feet but I can’t remember where right now. I think it was huffpost interview or maybe the New Mexico tourism video. I should update the cheat sheet with the new elevation. I will as soon as I can find the source again.

    • Ground-
      TrueWest November 2013 had a story about Forrest and the hunt by Jonny D. Boggs. In that story Forrest is quoted about the 5,000ft clue. The following month, December 2013 on page 10 the editor, Bob Boze Bell, writes about meeting with Forrest for lunch and the last line of his short article reads:
      “When we picked up the check and begged for another clue, he said, “Sure, the treasure is hidden below 10,200 feet.”

      After that Forrest was asked if he actually said those two things and he said yes. Since that time he has used those elevations himself in interviews and at least once he even got the numbers wrong..

  16. Maybe Forrest is hinting toward the Yellowstone Caldera.

    Mount Washburn, elevation 10,243 feet (3,122 m), is a prominent mountain peak in the Washburn Range in Yellowstone National Park, Wyoming. It lies on the edge of the Yellowstone Caldera. Mount Washburn is all that remains of a volcano that erupted some 640,000 years ago, forming the vast Yellowstone Caldera.

  17. This is my post…hope this is how it is done.

    I followed the poem mostly even though I have the books. My first attempt was a few years ago deciding to limit my search to New Mexico where I live. Since most of the place names are in Spanish I started there.

    The line “where warm waters halt” could’ve been agua fira…the lake not the town.
    I took it down to the valley like it told me to do. There was Moreno Valley…Brown in Spanish.
    From there it was no place for the meek….the meek shall inherit the earth. So, they are not in Heaven where Angels live. Right there was Angel Fire
    I thought that the word “fire” might be the blaze.
    “No paddle up your creek” The only creek at that point was small but had a rise of 400 feet in a short space, so I thought maybe in winter???
    That lead to Palo Flechado Pass…named after a tree that arrows were shot at.

    No marvel gaze,,,no prize

    Then Mr. Fenn limited the search, so I tried again. This time in English.

    Was I wrong or has it been found already? Follow this…

    The first line refers to “Treasure” Montana is the Treasure state.
    The “riches new and old” The motto of Montana is, “oro y plata”, gold and silver, riches in an older language.

    “Where warm waters halt” A cold water’s synonym is Glacial. Warm waters certainly halt when frozen…So, I started searching Glacier National Park on maps, in books, any reference I could find.

    The word, Brown has a capital, meaning it is a proper name, not brown trout.
    The home of Brown might be Brown mountain. (West Glacier entrance to see)
    “Put in” is a nautical term. At the base of Brown peak is MacDonald lake.
    “No place for the meek” is a double meaning. Across from Brown mountain
    is Heaven peak, also the place is dangerous because of Grizzly bears. The park has warnings and advises bear spray.

    Then it gets real good…

    There will be no paddle up your creek just heavy loads and waters high

    Right there is Avalanche creek, known for its rushing waters. At its base is the Trail of the Cedars, a boardwalk in the ancient trees a half mile around. The Avalanche creek trail is about two miles long and has warning signs telling that drowning is the most common way of death in the park (bears are second)?
    The trail ends at Avalanche lake, a place that Mr. Fenn may have fished.

    There were a few places that might’ve been the blaze because the place is dramatic and beautiful…areas of avalanche, lightening fire, fallen trees, rushing water that cuts deep into the rocks. I searched in many places but not in the water or the hundreds of fallen trees, except a few.

    The Hot Spots were a gorge where the Trail of Cedars met Avalanche creek, very dramatic “wonder gaze” and a few other places along the way.

    Another Hot spot, one that gave me chills was on the Trail of Cedars, A permanent sign and drawing telling us that owls are in the trees. This seemed to match the last lines of ” if you are wise” (wise old owl), and “in the wood”
    I looked under the boardwalk and everywhere locally but found no prize.

    I hope this helps someone to discover the prize or follow the poem better in case I’m partially right. I said I’d post my trip if I failed in the quest.

    My question became why would anyone let us know it is found? Uncle Sam has threatened to take it all and certainly would tax it greatly…and it is largely gold, spendable. So, if it hasn’t been found yet, please leave the chest for someone who follows to find and know it is over,,,and leave a little for that person.

    • I don’t think it would be taxed until sold boss. It’s like gold miners today – there’s a reason they keep it solid as long as they can 😉

  18. In 2012, Dal met with Forrest at his home. They were discussing the poem and why halt and walk did not rhyme. Here is a re-cap from Dal:

    By the way. A couple of years ago I had a discussion with Forrest about “halt” not rhyming with “walk”. I was suggesting that one of those words might not be the right word and once the real word was put in place…and rhymed…that things became much clearer…
    Forrest listened to me for a little bit and then jumped in and told me very directly, “Don’t mess with my poem.”
    So I have not tried to change his poem in any way since then…
    dal…

    Forrest did state: “Don’t mess with my poem”

    It appears that what it actually means is:

    Don’t go changing an original word in my poem line with another that rhymes.

    Yet people do not know the above circumstances of how the conversation took place and are applying it to the entire poem, This seems to make searchers think that many methods are now excluded because it leaves the poem to read at face value. I see where people talk of anagrams, alphabet count, etc. then think it applies to that method which detours them in perhaps a wrong direction.

    It clearly reads above that Dal was speaking of a single word change of the original poem and Forrest directly told him ” Don’t mess with my poem”

    What were Forrest thoughts as Dal spoke of Halt & Walk not rhyming.
    I believe his thoughts were of rhyme structure. The A & L in the middle of each word Halt & Walk is a form of poetic structure, therefore rhymes. His thoughts were: Don’t mess with my poem rules.

    To be fair to fellow searchers, ” Don’t mess with my poem” needs to have an explanation of the conversation beside it so it doesn’t lead seekers astray.

    • Well OH, I think between the don’t mess with the poem statement and his Scrapbook 62 statement Fenn is telling us not to mess with the poem and get off the couch and out from behind our computer screens to look for the treasure. Just my opinion.

      But hey, you can mess with the poem all you want. Let us know how that works out for you.

    • Walk and halt: it’s called slant rhyme and has been used by poets . . . well, for as long as poems have been written. Take a gander at Emily Dickinson some time.

  19. I am a new searcher and have spent hours reading blogs. PHEW! A couple of months ago the quest arose how could someone get the first clue, and even the second and then miss the next seven.

    I started at WWWH…like most searchers. I found one in Montana that suited my fancy. I had two options 1) go upstream or 2) go down stream. If I went down, my stream meta a larger stream. Do I go up or down? Each decision that I made affected the outcome (obvious). Could the second line help “Canyon Down” well duh…go down canyon UNLESS down meant something other than
    down-hill.

    Fortunately for my solve, I made choices that lead led me on a path that was
    NFBTFTW…that led me to “A” hoB.

    Decisions, decisions, decisions. This is what we are all doing, making decisions. Even if one could know exactly what FF meant by each word, would we all arrive at the same point, I think not.

    On the other hand, using ONLY the poem I arrived at a solve that (so far) met all of the criteria.

    I do not know what the BLAZE looks like, but I know exactly where to look once I get there in the summer.

  20. Can you guys help me out?

    Looking for the quote /confirmation that Forrest once said something to the effect that when the chest was discovered, people would be surprised at where it was hidden.

    – Wisconsin Mike

    • @Jake. Maybe. Or maybe the blaze is an enneagram, a star shape of the clues, a Brunnian link (18-crossing), suggesting how someone can walk right to it in the middle. This theory would certainly throw some light on why the circumpunct theorists keep seeing that image in their thoughts, and could relate to how logic can be used to find an important clue.

      Just a thought as I piece together a 9-pointed star shape in northern NM.

      • Fenn said between 5000 and 10200. This is the elevation quoted for Bandelier (bandolier = bullet = asterisk = blaze so on and so forth).

    • Jake;

      You still have eleven lines to figure out after the blaze line. Do you honestly think these eleven lines are of no significance? Somehow I doubt it. Just my opinion – JDA

  21. “…I cannot tell you how many searchers have identified the first clue correctly, but certainly more than several. I cannot imagine anyone finding the treasure without first identifying the starting point, although many seem to be preoccupied with later clues. To me that’s just expensive folly. f”

    Errr, I thought the first clue is the starting point? Maybe…

    “…I mean, there’s people driving down the street looking for a blaze, because that’s one of the clues, but you can’t start in the middle of the poem and find the treasure, I don’t think, I mean, it would be a miracle if someone did…”
    Looking for the Blaze, because that is *one* of the clues, But you can’t start in the *middle*…Uhmm.

    “I don’t want to broaden the clues and hints I’ve written about by pointing them out. What surprises me a little is that nobody to my uncertain knowledge has analyzed one important possibility related to the winning solve. ff”
    And the puzzle continues……..

    • Good catch, Seeker. Like you said the first clue may not be the starting point.

      Accordingly, the middle of the poem might not be the middle of the clues. Could be the end. Just speculation on my part.

    • Where do you or anyone think the middle of the poem is?
      It’s obvious to me that the blaze is in the middle of the poem.
      It’s also obvious to me the middle of the poem doesn’t mean it has to be the middle of the clues.

      • That’s what I think so not much to add. I tend to focus on trying to figure out the first stanza and the correct beginning area.

        • fundamentaldesign,
          Your name makes me think of fundamentals in the poem.
          There are a few paths you can use as fundamentals reading the poem.

          We can look at the whole poem, words, puncs & all as being the 9 clues.

          we can look at the puncs being the 9 clues seeing there are 8 periods & 1 big ?

          We can read the poem without puncs & barriers & let the poem speak to us.

          We can read the poem as the words are different meanings that are not the likely defs.

          We can……..

  22. “…Interesting that you would ask that Mr./Mz Wordsmith.
    I don’t use dictionaries anymore. I just type the word in Google for a faster response. It’s fun to make up words and play with different spellings. When someone calls me out after noticing the corruption of a word I use, I just smile, especially when I say something that in my mind is correct but in an academic sense it’s a horrible malfunction.”

    ” …I look up words and definitions of words and change them, went back and rebooted…”

    “The poem in my book is something that I changed over and over again. When you read the poem it looks like just, just simple words there. But I guarantee you that I worked on that. I felt like an architect drawing that poem.”

    “I tend to use some words that aren’t in the dictionary, and others that are, I bend a little.”

    “The person that finds it, is going to be a person who thinks and plans and has an analytical mind and uses logic, not someone who has a hunch.” 

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