It’s All About the F

Submitted by “42”

Why 32? The following discloses my opinions on finding WWWH and applying the “Golden” ratio 3:2 to solving portions of the poem. It’s my belief that Forrest is a genius and used a comprehensive yet simple, logical approach to his poem. I hope searchers can benefit from my research and information. This is a METHOD I developed which you can apply to any state you search.

F = the Golden Ratio 3:2

Cyrillic letter EF or “F” is known as the Golden Ratio 3:2 or 2:3 in math, science, art, music, architecture, aviation, nature’s design. 32 is also freezing point.

Phi, EF or “F” = The Golden Ratio is represented by symbols:
Φ φ/ϕ : Greek (see ttotc text for bb, pp, oo, dd which back to back form the symbol for golden ratio.)
Ѳ ѳ : Cyrillic
F f : Latin
b, d, p, x, y (other languages)

1. WWWH = 32
Most importantly Forrest stated emphatically, “Everything you need is in the poem.”
At the most basic level applicable to the poem, warm waters halt at the word halt. Numerically, L solves to 3 and T solves to 2. Therefore, halt ends with LT or 32. *Forrest tells us in the word halt that he is using 32 as wwwh. That’s why it doesn’t rhyme. (numerical values have been discussed at length; please see previous sb’s.)

2. 32 degrees F = freezing point. Every school kid will tell you warm waters halt when they freeze at 32 degrees F. Forrest said, “ask a kid.” See TTOTC ‘Frosty’ references.
Don’t overcomplicate it by looking at why 32 is not freezing point in all scenarios.

3. Section 32: Forrest was a surveyor, he thought of every way possible to confirm location=poem. On Forest Service and Surveyors maps, as well as County Cadastral mapping, each Township is subdivided into 36 sections. Look for sections numbered 32. If there is a suitable location where all warm waters halt, in a basin, with a canyon down in close proximity on Section 32 why wouldn’t you first consider it?

Application: warm water’s halt in basin land forms. My wwwh is a basin in a geographical location where all warm springs indigenous to SW Montana completely halt for miles surrounding. I found multiple Township Section 32’s in the area; chose the one near a canyon down and built my solve from there.

3. The poem’s 6 stanzas 4 lines may be physically folded or divided by 1/2 to achieve 3:2 mirrored symmetry and is written with 3 fifths of the information stacked on top of 2 fifths – roughly in a cross shape.

4. 32 point Compass Rose – hinted at in almost every chapter in TTOTC with Pie, circle, quarter circle, half references and numerically by 4, 8,16, 32. The Large Bold Cap’s which begin each chapter further confirm your location using NSEW, Tramontana, Ostro, Libeccio, etc from Mariner’s compass Rose. (Rose, sea are in the poem).

5. “Listen good” In music theory a perfect circle of fifths has a frequency ratio of 3:2 noted by Whole notes and Half notes shown as: WWWH.
– Recognizing a perfect 5th, one listens for the pitch and root note = “in the wood”
– Diatonic scales matching the perfect 3:2 ratio include “Dorian” and “Phrygian” which are also architectural styles.
Phrygian 3:2 dominant is know as the “Spanish Gypsy” scale.

SW Montana. Photos from my 11th time searching the mountains of Osborne Russell.

42 trip42 trip2I’m a 54 year old stage-three cancer survivor; Montana native displaced in Texas. Any ‘over-thinking’ of solutions to Forrest’s poem has been a welcome diversion to heath issues. His dare was a catalyst propelling me back to the land of the living into the mountains of Montana where I was raised. I will never regret the exhilaration of giving my best to solving his puzzle or the rewards of traipsing through the wilderness.

324 thoughts on “It’s All About the F

    • I challenge all here to a SHOW & TELL:
      Show me your method or place IN THE POEM that tells conclusively where warm waters halt. If that’s YNP, or NM then show and tell it.
      Im interested in anything that will help someone find the treasure.

      Fenn says without that conclusive start place you may as well stay home.


      WWWH according to 4th grade kids atTCA middle. I asked a teacher to ask them about Warm Waters:

      1.warm waters are warm – not hot. They could not decide what temp is warm but wanted to do experiments in the bath tub. lol
      2. Melting water is warm because it’s not frozen.
      3.when water freezes it makes ice.
      4.When asked, ‘Where do warm waters halt?’ 19 of 19 kids said, where they freeze; or inside a container.
      5.. When asked what temp water freezes they all knew ’32 degrees’
      7. When asked about Yellowstone Park, 6 kids had been there and said its ‘waters were all hot.’
      8. They didn’t know if or where the rivers became warm or cold. They wanted to know about the bears.

      4th graders understood our alphabet has 26 letters and said my system of matching letters to numbers was easy:

      thru Z=26

      L=3 (L-12 1+2=3)
      T=2 (T-20 2+0=2)

      Pretty basic.
      the poem’s warm waters sentence comes to a screeching halt at 32.

      By the way – critiquing my methods is welcome. I like to THINK and respect others thoughts.

      But, for those who judged me as a person saying my ideas were silly or they would not search with me because of my information – generously shared for anyone who wanted it.
      I feel sorry for you, and hope common courtesy is in your future.

      • 42 –

        I would want you with me, on my search any day. You don’t let anything get past you………… and have the guts to say it. 🙂

        Am I smarter than a 4th grader……… probably not.

        I do think the kids hit on the bears and that is pretty smart…

        Where to Black bears stop and Brown bears begin ?

        That info ought to narrow down a search area .Imo

        Thanks 42 – that was a treat.

      • 42

        I’ve posted a lot on these blogs, and have offered up a very recent WWWH just this week. I’ve also offered up quite a few others over the years.

        BTW – I’ve asked a lot of kids the same questions you did. They always say the same thing. WWWH at 32 degrees.

        I do have a question, and I see what you did. Any two digit number gets the two digits added together.

        What made you think that any letter that maps to a two digit number has to have the two digits added together?

        Why not subtract them? or divide them? or multiply them?

        By your method “H” and “Z” would have the same value.

        I’m not criticizing – just trying to understand.

        Scott W.

        • Scott,
          forrest said no cyphers and his poem is “straight forward” therefore I used a non-cypher “kid-friendly” straight forward match up; same with addition, even a kid can work it.

          Several reasons for simplifying double digits to single.

          1. Single digits allowed me to look for road #’s on maps, found mt highway 191 confirming my route out of YNP through Gallatin Canyon.

          2. Found exact latitude matching my area.

          3. look for words with significant numbers that match hints in TTOTC.

          4. Words like Halt revealed direction

          5. In my opinion every line in the poem can be solved to the lowest single digit and reveal important information.

      • 42 the poem is set set of clues. Fenn said dont mess with it. you need to look for a source for WWWH that is as set as the poem. some thing that is NOT an opinion but a provable FACT.

      • Hi 42 — In the interest of full disclosure, let me say that I have about as much fondness for numerology as astrology, or anagrams of 30-letter phrases, but let me offer a critique of your system. You have arbitrarily ignored the H & the A and chosen to fixate on the L & the T. This confirmation bias is similar to the Marksman’s Fallacy: in this case, knowing the answer you want, and finding ways to generate it. Since there are 9 different two-letter combinations that will generate 32 by this system, it is not hard to find letter pairs in the poem that will get you your 32 (e.g. bUT too far to waLK, pUT in, bUT tarry scant). I’m actually surprised you didn’t go with the simpler way to get 32 with L & T. Just add 12 and 20. Still, it’s rather arbitrary. It would be better if the system depended on all the letters of a word, e.g. H+A+L+T=41. (Btw, latitude 41 degrees would put you conveniently on the Colorado/Wyoming border. ;-))

        Bottom line is that I will be very surprised — disappointed even — if numerology ends up having anything to do with where Forrest hid his treasure.

        • Zaphod,
          Nothing arbitrarily or ignored:

          The entire word halt reveals 8132 my WWWH’s elevation in a small basin at the head of an unnamed u-shape glaciated canyon in a geological area where all warm springs and warm waters halt within the Greater Yellowstone Ecosystem. Meets qualifications for a basin, no geothermals, 32 degrees coordinate, section 32 on map which also halTs at T or the cross of my X and Y axis for Longitude and Latitude.

          How is your solve coming? It would be enjoyable to read your ideas as well.

          • Hi 42: here’s the problem. Start from Fenn’s perspective. It’s not like he had any choice about the altitude. Is it your contention that he happened to notice that a basin near his intended hiding place had an altitude of 8132 feet, and so he went through the alphabet looking for a word that numerologically reduces to 8132, and then deliberately put it in his poem?

      • Scott,
        forrest said no cyphers and his poem is “straight forward” therefore I used a non-cypher “kid-friendly” straight forward match up; same with addition, even a kid can work it.

        Several reasons for simplifying double digits to single.

        1. Single digits allowed me to look for road #’s on maps, found mt highway 191 confirming my route out of YNP through Gallatin Canyon.

        2. Found exact latitude matching my area.

        3. look for words with significant numbers that match hints in TTOTC.

        4. Words like Halt revealed direction

        5. In my opinion every line in the poem can be solved to the lowest single digit and reveal important information.

      • The entire word halt reveals 8132 my WWWH’s elevation in a small basin at the head of an unnamed u-shape glaciated canyon in a geological area where all warm springs and warm waters halt within the Greater Yellowstone Ecosystem. Meets qualifications for a basin, no geothermals, 32 degrees coordinate, section 32 on map which also halTs at T or the cross of my X and Y axis for Longitude and Latitude.

      • Further evidence IMO that “32” POINTS to the location of the treasure chest:

        Integral to the poems architecture X(32) + Y(32) =64 6stanzas 4lines

        The “32 point compass rose” printed on F’s TFTW map is a Weems compass rose. Weems is the father of celestial navigation in the air – he taught early aviators such as Lindbergh and Earhart’s navigator.

        Evidence in the poem is H A L ‘T’
        T plotting a cross or X with Coordinates running thru sections 32..

        32 directional “points” of the rose literally point out X, Y direction axis.

        In TTOTC numerous references to circle, quarter circles, 16, 32 further illustrates how ff incorporated hints to a 32 point compass.

        On page 55, The long ride home, you read Forrest recounting he and Skipoy making a 1600 mile trip with a flat tire every 50 miles. Simple calculation 1600 divided by 50 yields “32 STOPS” my opinion based on facts from poem, both books, and f’s maps says your X,Y
        Stops are on section 32 – which also works nicely with WWWH.

        • Hey 42 that is very interesting but the page 55 thing seems a bit deliberate… I think he said nothing in the book was deliberately placed to aid the seeker… or something to that effect… Maybe it’s just a coincident?

          • Spallies, rather than get hung up on the semantics of deliberate, not, or hint v clue, I view it all as a friendly “HI” or
            Helpful Information.
            Just my opinion.

          • It A=1, B = 2 ….. and Z =26 and the method is to say: “WE” equals 55 (E = 5 and W = 23 or 2 + 3 which is 5) then what letters do you use to get the number 101?
            Thank you – GM

    • Numbers yeah got me there. I know WWWH is and HOB its those Heavy loads and water high that’s messing me around. Can’t leave home till I got that figured!

  1. You contradict yourself. You mention that Forrest said ‘ask a kid.’ And true, he did. Sorry but no kid is gonna come up with anything like that. Interesting solve, but very complicated, even for most adults. I hardly could follow anything there myself. I believe you are over thinking it. Ask a kid if he understands any of that and there is your answer.

    • I believe her reference to ask a kid was not inclusive of the entirety above; rather the simplest part, like ask a kid wwwh. That’s what I see. And as far as the rest, valerie, I applaud your brilliant thought process and ability to tie it all together. It’s tough to understand if none of these things were included in one’s research, and if one is not a numbers person, but you did well. Thx 42!

    • Tosh – would you please provide the reference where Forrest said, “ask a kid”.

      There are several of us that have been trying to find that reference and we have been unable to do so. We’ve been looking for a month.

      To be honest – I have used that statement as well, but since I can’t find the reference it needs to be thrown out the window.

      Your help with this would be very much appreciated.

      Scott W.

      • I have been pretty careful to fact check what I say, and have verified many things in the past. Both things I’ve said and heard others say. Now that you ask me this, I wonder for sure if this was one thing that I have actually fact checked or not. I have some time right now, I’ll see what I can find.

    • So I’ve done so more studying and I see where you are going here.

      Your Phi solve also fits in with FF’s constant reminder that the poem was constructed by an architect, as many architects incorporate this ratio into their buildings.

      The more I look at your concept, the more I get it. I especially liked the tie-in to “Gypsies”.

      What I still don’t see is how to unlock the clues with this ratio, but I will continue trying.

      Scott W.

  2. WOW! this will take awhile to sort. We are not sure how some of this works with poem however the surveyor info is VERY interesting to us. Thank you very much for your hard work. Your are VERY brainy.

  3. Dal, thank you!

    Amy, only one number…32

    Scott, no cyphers. Simply multiple ways the poem confirms WWWH = 32 – right there In the poem.

    Btw: Forrest plays piano beautifully, perhaps guitar as well; enjoys cello music and opera. Don’t discount wwwh musical element.

    Gees, Where are German Guy, Windsurfer, or Cognito when you need a friend;-)

    • I am out searching..and am sure to find it…lol…
      Goof has the blog door and I bought him a much larger nuke button that shoots spectacular six foot flames when he hits it..
      Thanks for posting this in my absence Goof..
      I can only check in when I find a decent connection..

      • Hey love the new nuke button; the flames are very cool. I have it setting right next to my Deluxe Wee Gee Board mouse pad.

        I tested it when I burned the book like Mindy told me to. The flames came out in a perfect golden ratio pattern. The coordinates in the smoke was a complete bust. Mindy owes me a new book so could you pick one while you’re there and have Fenn sign it; just charge it to Mindy.

        I can’t wait to use the new nuke button……It may be very peaceful around here by the time you get back. 🙂

          • Would think you could have a check and balance system here?

            Of say dal you and a 3rd party?

            Chase Chat is ending up with these people…….

            This is like the European refugee problem……

            Goofy nuked me is getting to common…..

            Rather hear that a review board made the call and now your on a short leash here at CC.

            That way they can be banned at CC if need be.


            Pond Scum

          • Well Seeeker:)

            Trying to be civil and cordial…..

            Believe most people are.

            Or otherwise wouldn’t have addressed this issue here.

            With a review board and that type of process very few people will have grounds to air themselves over at CC.

            Like Dal and Goofy.

            I don’t care to hear all the dad talk and how their not fair.

            Want o ban them them from CC if they get out of line.

          • That’s a hoot Rick… “trying to be civil…”
            I’ll bet before I even finish this post you’ll already have gone back to the pond and tore this site and anyone you disagree with a nasty new one.

            Don’t pull that crap you try and be anything nice. Goofy Nuke me now…!! but leave this up!

            Rick your the biggest piece of crap that ever learned to write and type. You just posted about the nuking to start trouble… But don’t like it when ya get called on it. Go cry up CC skirt. You have called me ever named in the book Hiding on CC ~ because there the owner of the site allows and encourage it. Not just me but others in this chase as well.
            Pond scum is a compliment to you.

          • Seeker:)

            If you get banned from here you will just change accounts like you have done at CC.

            So your working overtime to ban me here?

            You can always pm me and we can go from there.

        • Much respect to anyone running their own blog ship. I hope on the good days you all join the adventures of others minds and on the less than perfect days you feel the warmth of your nuke buttons as Winter cabin fever presents itself.

          • Hello algae bloom,

            Looking beyond the tribal warfare, I concur with your idea of a nuclear tribunal of checks and balances. Those who are nuked are often the most fun to debate. Especially when they speak with authority before ever searching. Not to mention all the crow recipes we’re missing. What we’re left with is a small nucleus of original posters, who in my opinion have completely given up on mapping the poem.

            For example, I often read here that searchers don’t have a clue where to begin- (pun intended) when Sir Fenn has given us that information. When Forrest told us that the chest is between 5,000 and 10,200 feet in elevation; using deductive reasoning, what does that tell us about wwwh? Of course some learned knowledge is needed to understand the term “warm waters” in a mountain setting.

            I would like to challenge searchers with this question. How many map points are in the poem?


            Happy hunting all 🙂


          • straw,


            The final map point referenced will put you within a few hundred yards of the blaze, which is a bog solution. jmo


  4. 42 …

    You quote Forrest who said: everything you need is in the poem. Then you proceed to talk about all kinds of things that are not in the poem … “cyrillic”, “golden ratio”, “township”, “compass rose”, “frequency”, “a perfect 5th”, “Dorian”, and so on.

    I’m probably wrong, but I had envisioned a more straightforward solution. Still, your solution is ingenious. You seem to have found a good fit, however esoteric.

    Isn’t it interesting that many people come up with seemingly good fits that turn out to be dead ends. But maybe your solution is the correct one.

    Congrats on some deep thinking. Good luck to you.

  5. The Golden Ratio is an irrational number (1+sqrt(5))/2:1. It’s not all that close to 3:2.

    3:2 is a perfect fifth in music, but did you know pianos are tuned to an “equal tempered” fifth ~1.498:1. So in a way all pianos in the world are out of tune.

  6. It’s all too much to be a coincidence. But on the other hand it’s like saying music and art is all math after it has been produced by the soul. Yes phi and pi is found in everything. They are the building blocks of geometry. But what is built with them is….divine.

    • Thanks Everyone for your interesting comments.

      By the way, I’m not comparatively smart. I can’t read a note of music; know nothing of music theory; but I have tried hard to understand what exists in the layers of Forrest’s poem and I’ve studied everything I can find on Forrest. If we don’t understand Forrest, how can we know what place he holds “dear.” (His word for where he placed the chest)

      My WWWH only required thought and logic to arrive at the simplest conclusion: all water is warm that is not frozen. Freezing point is 32. The poem confirms 32 in numerous ways that coincide with Forrest being a musician, surveyor, etc.

      For the newbies, Forrest said show it to a kid;
      Forrest also stated it would require a great deal of thought (paraphrased). If the poem is simplistic why does it require deep thinking? He said “It would NOT be easy.” So what makes it hard?

      If it were as simple as picking a warm spring or canyon in NM Forrest’s treasure would already be found.

      @ Michael H1198 – thanks, I agree with you – there are too many coincidences to ignore, and I too love beautiful music and natures artwork. I only learned about the golden ratio thru studying Forrest’s poem. A terrific learning experience for me.

      • 42,
        Very novel and innovative thoughts. Though I fully respect your approach and cognitive breadth, I find it difficult to comprehend (sorry, just a personal problem with my wee bi’ o’ gray matter). You said:

        “If we don’t understand Forrest, how can we know what place he holds “dear.””

        I fully agree with you on this point and, IMO, this is the reason searchers should read and heed every word Forrest has, and continues to, put out. I believe it’s a mistake to search Forrest’s words (even in TTOTC book), photos, and illustrations for hints to the clues, as this, IMO and experience, quickly leads one away from the poem’s path and into a grandiose world with limitless boundaries. Though I must admit, there are times when some of his words, photos, and/or illustrations do seem to line up with my interpretations of key words/phrases in the poem, but this should, IMO, occur ex post facto of the interpretation.

        The exception to ‘ex post facto of interpretation’ is, IMO, the poem’s general start area. IMO, a searcher must initially utilize information from Forrest to derive a general start area, but that interpretive deduction is, IMO, quickly verified by the poem and subsequent research.

        You said:

        “My WWWH only required thought and logic to arrive at the simplest conclusion….”

        IMO, a very appropriate measure to deduce Forrest’s intended location/area for wwwh. I believe the poem’s first stanza provides information for, among other things, the general area of the beginning of the poems’s path (think ‘yellow brick road’ – my attempt at humor, and I’m NOT saying Oz movie/book is a relevant research tool, though ‘that man behind the curtain’ concept is one that should become entrenched in each person’s every-day mindset). IMO, the first stanza’s most important words relative to the poem’s start point/area are:

        treasures (plural = more than one treasure),
        secret (singular = one secret),
        riches (plural = more than one and, with “new and old” qualifiers, provides, IMO, significant insight).

        If there’s only one secret in the first stanza, to which of the “treasures” or “riches” does it pertain? IMO, wwwh involves no guesswork as Forrest has already ‘unsecreted’ information that aids searchers in locating the the intended area in which warm waters halt.

        It’s good to see your continued postings here as I always find them cognitively invigorating. I apoligize for the rambling nature of this response – just the almost-lucid rambings of a feeble, old mind.

  7. 42,

    Thank you for sharing. Surprisingly (to me) your “32” does fit in with my solve!

    One has to wonder though if making the numbers fit the solve this way is a bit of a stretch in that Forrest said this spot was special to him, and it’s been that way from before he thought of hiding Indulgence.

    Nonetheless, powerful thought process. Bravo!

    – Wisconsin Mike

  8. 42 –

    Appreciate the brain power that went into this. You sure do earn your way around these parts my friend! (Must be at least a kid or 2 or… who can relate).

    Me? I’m still concentrating on the DNA sequencing of a 12,500 + year old infant found in 2014 in W. Montana. (Fascinating reading, actually).

    “CLOVIS” ~

    Worth the time to check out if interested! – It’s shown strong affinities with ‘all’ existing Native Americans.


    • SL – are you referring to A1 – Anzick Clovis infant who was reburried in 2014?

      That is part of my final solution tying to NA’s (possibly Shoshone) in the ice free corridor in Montana. The infant is the oldest human ever found in the U.S. and as you said is genetically linked thru DNA to nearly all First Peoples or Native Americans. A case can be made for A1 showing up in Stanza 1 of the poem.

      The Clovis cache discovered in 1968 with the infant is on display at the Montana Historical Society in Helena.

      • I have a sense about the Clovis child having a profound effect upon Forrest Fenn.

        As it is with all things……”The heart loves what the heart…loves.”


        • SL: line one of stanza one, at the beginning:

          ‘Az I’ have gone al one in there.

          Anzick -1 or Ancient NA one who has gone all ones – or 111. Longitude to be more exact which is the ice free corridor route the ancients travelled south through Alberta Canada transversing N to S in Montana. my solve follows a U-shaped ancient canyon wrought by glaciers. Sheep eater Shoshones occupied the area; other tribes passed through to hunt and trade. The poem has Shoshone and other NA words. One translates to dear/young boy.

          • I wish someone would go get it before I get back to it
            …. not getting any sleep thinking about it.

          • hi Kenny Curtice we know how you feel. we were planning a early June trip but three month early he fell at work tearing up his shoulder. after waiting all winter to go we got delayed to Aug. then we get there we had to bring grandson home for school and that process we got very ill. so we are trying to go back on the 19 of Sept but since hubby just back to work money is tight and we will have to loss four days of pay. we are still planning but we will have to just wait and see. when you are doing this are a nervous ball of energy. good luck on your plans have fun and take lots of pictures.

          • 42 –

            I also remember reading about Alberta being the one part of Canada that is closest to “touching” a State in the US – This State being…Montana. ( I spent much time both in Alberta and Montana during my former career.) The memories still take my breath away.

            It is truly wonderful that you’ve joined me, and have ‘touched’ the spirit which is this beautiful child!

            I believe FF has as well ~


          • I didn’t see this ONE before:

            “Az I’ have gone al one in there.

            Anzick -1 or Ancient NA one who has gone all ones – or 111.”

            Now I have to go to road 111 north of Ojo Caliente.
            A couple of days ago I posted something about Saltlick Springs along that road north of Lamadera, NM. I have been looking at the Tusas for a while. Now I have to look at that ONE.

    • Sweet-
      It has been answered..
      I am superstitious and that number is bad luck. I went from 31 years old to 33.
      The last time I wrote that number I got the chicken pox and mumps at the same time and the candy machine stole my nickel.

      • I’m not a superstitious person. I walked under a ladder once and nothing happened to me, but the man on the ladder got so mad, started yelling at me, lost his footing and fell. But I’m fine. A black cat once ran out in front of the car while I was driving down my road, the cat made it to the other side fine, but the on coming car swerved and crean into the ditch. I pulled him out with my 4×4 and he gave me 20 $, so that was a good day.

        I once through salt over my should after, watching others do it. I never understood why they did this so I thought I see what it was all about… I broke my moms new crystal salt shaker and to my surprise she wasn’t even mad… she just asked me if I was ok, standing there barefoot with shards all around me, and gave me a hug. I was always her favorite. But from that moment on, I never step on a crack… Just to play it safe.

        When I was 8, the kids in the area use to sled down dead mans gorge… a 100′ vertical drop at the end of the Mountain and we would see who was brave enough to get as close to the cliff before jumping off. [ ok, it was a 10′ drop at the end of a small hill, but at 8 years old it was Mt. Everest ]
        Well, I stayed on longer then anyone else and got so scared I forgot to jump off… It was the 1st time I ever prayed… I was fine, no broken bone, but ended up with a brown patch on my britches… everyone laughed. I was so embarrassed I never prayed again… a broken leg would have been better.

        The first time I was ever in an elevator I notice there was no button for the 13th floor… I immediately left the elevator… I’m not riding in an enclosed box built by some guy who can’t count to 13. So now I used the stairs.

          • Its just like Dal said. He did not post a 32nd scrapbook. At the time he listed a battle in Vietnam and respect for fallen comrads. You should be able to find it if you use google.

            I have no idea which is the correct story but it is what it is. No 32nd scrapbook.

  9. 42,

    When I started college (let’s just say it was a while ago) I was “forced” to take Philosophy 101 where I was introduced to the concept of “filtering”. That is to say, everyone of us “screens” all the input into our lives; that this screening process is personal, ever developing, and if we’re not aware it is happening, can color everything we experieince. Hence we have expressions like “she sees things through rose colored glasses” or “he’s so jaded”, etc.

    When I look at Forrest’s poem, I notice the rhythm or meter of it is off-kilter – it’s not a limerick, for example. The words don’t flow – they’ve been forced – perhaps overwrought is a term that could be used. The question that this begs is, why? Because Forrest is trying to be exact in his words so as not to mislead and at the same time keep the treasure hidden – no small feat. Are they foced to meet some mathematical formula? In my opinion, they do not. If that were the case, then there would be no rhymes, or at least far fewer. No, the poem had many drafts until it was perfect for hiding a treasure – but not perfect for listening too, or being read aloud in English, at least.

    Will the poem be read in classrooms across the country for years to come? Most likely, but for different reasons than having students also read Shakespeare, Milton or Tolkien. I am no literary critic or expert, by any means, but I have had the good fortune of haivng had a well rounded education, for which I am grateful. While I can apppreciate a good “math solution” to a problem, I am uncertain that Forrest used a construct like the one you put forth when writing the poem. You do bring up some concepts for us to consider as we work our own solutions to where Indulgence is hidden, that I can grant you and I thank you for them.

    Good luck in your searching!

  10. I rolled up a copy of Mindy’s Hotspot blog and smoked….Oops, burned it “32” times.

    I didn’t see any clues but I felt better.

  11. 42 – Are you aware of the Fibonacci sequence?

    1, 1, 2, 3, 5, 8, 13, 21, 34, 55, 89, 144, 233

    Fibonacci did NOT speak about the golden ratio as the limit of the ratio of consecutive numbers in this sequence.

    • For anyone interested: the book “The Golden Ratio” written by Mario Livio tells the story of phi and as it says on its cover, it is written for math-buffs and math-phobes alike. Its a fascinating book and after you read it, you will start to see Fibonacci numbers everywhere and especially in art, music, and poetry. The age old question however, is whether they were put their by design or not.

      Interesting theory 42, although I just don’t see how your analysis leads to the chest. You say wwwh=32 but later say that wwwh is a basin. Why do you need 32 at all once you determine it is a basin? Would you ignore a basin where all of the other clues fit if it wasn’t near a section 32 on a map plat? My only other question is whether you tested your theory on a location or spot and whether what you found convinced you either way.

    • The chase is about what is ultimate beauty to Forrest.

      Simple enough?

      I have no problem entertaining others wild ideas. 50 shades of the same color. Doesn’t mean I’m going searching with them.

  12. Can any one explain why Fenn made the chest weight exactly 42lbs? And why there are exactly 265 gold coins inside? I think it weighs 42lbs because it is hidden between hwy 41 and 43 in southwest Montana.

      • Anything… What happens when they build a new road? Or change the name to president someone highway or someone invents the Jetson brief case flymobile and the road is removed. Or…

      • Jeremy,
        Why do you think that Fenn “made” the chest weight exactly anything? Isn’t it most likely that the chest just weights whatever it actually weights because that’s just how much the stuff weights? And why do we concern ourselves with exactly how many items are in the chest? The chest has finite volume. Isn’t it most likely that he added things until he felt it was full and sure to astonish the finder? Do we fill our coffee mugs with a specific “amount” of liquid or do we just “fill it up”? Do we fill our gas tanks with exactly so many gallons or just top it off?

        There doesn’t have to be a specific reason for weight and coin count and there doesn’t have to be a clue there.

        Your clues are in the poem (in Fenns opinion).

        • Hold that thought for a moment Marvin. I’m not sure about you, but some think there are “clues” from the book are needed. I don’t agree with that, but what the heck do I know. Fenn gave us numbers in his comment of 66,000 links and stated [ paraphrasing. I don’t have the quote at the ready] That those were important numbers were a clue.

          As Liviu pointed out 42lbs. = an old measurement system… three stones for weighing gold, The T in “treasures” in the poem is 42 space count from the A in AS. 42 is the angle of the sun for a rainbow. Is by telling us the weight of the chest giving a hint to one of those? He could have easily said, the chest is so heavy single person would have trouble carrying it.

          If we look at the word scant, it means a stone slab… hoB for home of brown is a stone warmer used in a fire pit, spelled either HOB or HUB. Stone marbles… etc. Lots of references to stones in the poem and book.

          Fenn told us there were hundreds of gold pacers, yet exact count of the number of coins. Why not an exact count of the pacers as well?

          How to use that to help solve the poem or should we even use it, is a whole other question.
          But it sure makes one think.

          • Seeker,
            Sure- it’s possible that there are hints everywhere but I think F has warned us against that expectation. I’m more of a fan of what’s most likely…Occams razor principal if you will.

            In your example you mentioned-The T in “treasures” in the poem is 42 space count from the A in AS.

            Isn’t it a little arbitary to count from A…why not somewhere else. And let’s say that count is intentional…how does landing on T bring more attention to treasure then the word by itself (you had me at treasure)? And if he said the chest was 44 pounds would we be counting from some other letter to hit the B in blaze? Isn’t it more likely that this is a coincidence?

            We can make similar arguements with 42’s assertion that Warm halts at 32. But why are we using the fahrenheit scale…maybe Warm Halts at 0 deg C. Since warm is more of a relative human sensation rather than a precise temperature wouldn’t body temperature be a better reference point. So using her line of thinking Warm Halts at 98.6 F. It seems things are being picked to support a theory rather then because they make sense.

            Just sayin….

          • I agree. These examples are just for thoughts. Yet the reason for some such as starting count at A is the first letter of the poem. I thought it was an interesting coincidence. But truly nothing more

            As to Occam’s razor there is a twist in my line of thinking. I believe the poem to be complex, complicated, difficult until understood… then comes the “what took me so long”

            The poem looks like simple word with simple direction, Yet 100,000 people in the chase and all those simple thoughts got two clues [ which for some reason they may have not understood them ] and no chest in 5 years. Are we “over simplifying” at the same time “over complicating” Fenn stated know about Head pressure, Latin, codes etc. is going not going to find the chest… and also stated;

            “Searchers have routinely revealed where they think the treasure was hidden and walked me through the process that took them on that course. That’s how I know a few have identified the first two clues. Although others were at the starting point…
            { I think their arrival was an aberration }
            …and they were oblivious to its connection with the poem. Playing a hunch is not worth much in the search and those who start out by looking for the blaze, are wasting their time.f ”

            I see a lot of the aberration usage, as well as code and such. Too straightforwards is not a good thing either, IMO. Straightforwards means to me… In all Honestly with no Subterfuge intended. Not so much simple.

            “…When you read the poem it looks like just, just simple words there. But I guarantee you that I worked on that. I felt like an architect drawing that poem.”

            Yet my point was, If we don’t think about those possibilities we just talked about… How do we know if we’re on the right track without asking, is this something or just my mind wondering?

            But yes I agree with you.

          • Seeker,
            I suspect we are on the same page. Consider all the information but separate the chaff from the wheat.

          • I think warm water halts at “BUT tarry scant with marvel gaze” and don’t expect me to explain that one…re ad verse 2 again and look for acronyms.

        • I think that I read somewhere that when Fenn was filling the chest that he kept adding gold dust until it weighed 42lbs. Now to me that seems like he wanted it to weigh that amount for a reason

        • I pretty much agree Marvin. However I do think there are some hints in the book but not hidden in numbers…I think the hints are related to the places he tells stories about. It is clear to me when I read the books where his heart is at and I believe that gives me a fundamental place, albeit a very large place, to begin looking for WWWH.

    • He’s a fan of Douglas Adams?

      Sorry, that doesn’t explain, it just supposes.

      I think the chest is 22 pounds or there abouts and then there is about 20 pounds of loot inside it. Just checked on-line and gold is a little over $1100.00 an ounce – so some quick math reveals that if everything inside was gold it would be worth about $352,000 if melted into inguts. (16 ounces times 20 pounds times $1100.00 per ounce.) Disclaimer – I think that gold “ounces” are smaller – maybe Troy ounces? If so, the value if melted down would be higher. But you get the drift.

      Of course, some things are not gold and some things have higher value because they are formed gold.

      All that to say, there might be some intrinsic value in the weight of the chest, but I’ve not heard nor read anything anywhere else that could be attributed to Forrest about the “why” of the weight. But I’ve only been here a couple of months, so some old timers might have something more to add.

    • FYI – he is not always consistent about the weight. I was re-watching some of the older interviews this past weekend and noticed in one of them he said it was 44 lbs.

      I wouldn’t put to much weight (pun intended) on the number of items in the box either. No matter what, there had to be a certain number.

      Scott W

      • I’m just going to throw this out there…Broken up into nine separate areas, Beaverhead-Deerlodge National Forest in southwestern Montana resembles a puzzle struggling to assemble itself.
        And this…If you’re planning a trip to the Beaverhead or surrounding area, Bozeman and Butte offer the closest commercial flights. Dillon is the main town on the Beaverhead although surrounding towns serve access to the area. It is a beautiful part of the state with a lot of wildlife. Seeing moose and other animals is always a possibility. Fly fishing on the picturesque Beaverhead River is top notch that many anglers come back to experience year after year.

        • It’s no place for the meek tells that it’s not in ysnp and confirms that it’s in southwest Montana…About 1829 a nineteen-year-old trapper named Joe Meek camped along the Gallatin River in southwest Montana with a brigade of mountain men led by William Sublette of the Rocky Mountain Fur Company. When a group of Blackfeet attacked, the trappers scattered. Young Meek fled across the mountains and found geothermal features in what later became Yellowstone National Park.

          • Jeremy, in my estimation you are correct about Meek. The poem confirms Gallatin Canyon and highway 191 numerically.

            Highway 191 is also no place for the Meek with white crosses somberly lining every curve through the Canyon. My solve is near the Gallatin River – it may have been Forrest’s Mothers favorite river if his dad favored the Madison.

            Ironically, I snapped a photo last search with an antique whiskey barrel in the Crail Ranch pioneer museum at Big Sky Montana stamped with “Joe Meeks” name. The Middle Fork of the Gallatin River runs 50 yards from the barrel. Also in the big sky basin sits the Ophir pioneer school museum like the one f describes his father driving to in Wyoming. It’s also 50 miles from west Yellowstone and Ophir means gold.

          • Have you found the blaze yet? Because I think I have but the one I found is west of 191 along I-15 I plan on going back and checking a couple of coordinates that I have come up with next July

          • The only questions I have for Fenn would be:
            1. How far from the blaze is the chest hidden?
            2. Did you have to get your feet/waders wet to check on it?

          • Jeremy-
            There is another part of that story that could lead one to believe just the opposite of what you say. Meek looked down on the hell-fire in the Yellowstone listened to the noise of the thermal explosions and decided he wasn’t going down there to investigate. So by this account , in my opinion, Yellowstone would be the perfect “no place for the meek”.

          • My solve is simple and I am by no means a genius like some sound like on here. I am simple and don’t even comprehend some of the things that I se on these blogs, however, I am good at analysing and making sense of all of the bits and pieces gathered. I have my points plotted and the only thing that I am having trouble with in my own solution is how to access some of my points on public lands which are surrounded by private lands…writing this just brought to light yet another solution to my own problem that I remember finding before-
            Return to Home Page of Big Sky Fishing.Com
            Big Sky Fishing.Com
            The Montana Stream Access Law

          • jeremy we are not searching up north but found the story on Meek fascinating. on our trip back form NM hubby said he had a new found love, appreciation, gratitude and awl of what the settlers and mountain men did. we crossed a rather small steam ourselves and we are just amazed at what our for fathers did. thank you for sharing the story.

          • Jeremy,

            The other point to the Meek story is nobody has found the exact route Meek took… maybe the poem is what that is all about. Fenns enthusiasm for the life of fur traders and trail blazers [ Osbourne for another, Lewis and Clark, etc.] maybe he figured out the path no one else could…

          • I believe that but I also know that he has checked on it and that he put something special, maybe an incentive, inside for the finder if they chose to let him know that it it has been found

  13. All I gather from this Post a that you are off. You must be off. Your list is numbered…
    Not to mention that I noticed in the area that I was at this weekend, there was a particular something that had upon it “WWWH”. I have to say, I wasn’t surprised. I’d been at that spot several times before and only noticed it then. Hmmm. Of course, my comment is IMO.

    • Slurbs, it’s not a mistake. If 32 is WWWH starting place then 33 is where you go next.
      But nice of you to fall into the hole. I think it’s 33 inches deep.

  14. Whether you keep it simple or put deep thought into a solve, according to FF you have to KNOW the RIGHT PLACE to start:

    Forrest has stated,

    “If you don’t know where to start, you may as well stay home and play Canasta.”

    Canasta is a card game. 3’s and 2’s are Wild cards. Small but significant detail.

    Where are you going to start?
    How did you confirm its right?

    More WWWH = 32

    Mathematically, the golden ratio 3:2 and the inverse golden ratio 2:3 have a set of symmetries that interrelate them. When shown digitally 3:2 = 1.618.. Every line in the poem solves down to an equality of 1, 6, 8. Coincidence?
    I don’t think so.

    Forrest said he built the poem “architecturally”. In architecture perfect symmetry is achieved using 3:2 golden ratio whether in Egyptian pyramids, Greek temples, teepees, or churches. Artists and Architects have proportioned their works to the golden ratio, believing this proportion to be aesthetically pleasing. I believe Forrest is a 32 degree mason (but have yet to find confirmation). Masonic symbols and buildings are full of 32’s.

    Geometrically, A rhombus or diamond shape mirrors the golden ratio. A perfect diamond shape can be plotted within the poem by connecting Y’s. as well as layered triangles which resemble spear points. Perhaps section 32 is WWWH within a canyon in the ice free corridor leading to a Clovis point cache.

    The golden 3:2 ratio appears in patterns in nature including the arrangement of leaves, Fibonacci spiral shape and Honey bees hexagonal cells to hold their honey. Count the B’s in the poem. Forrest included an entire Bee culture within the poem. Geographically, WWWH section 32 canyon could be near a beehive basin.

    Note: if you prefer keeping it simple then simply don’t read my posts.

    • 42 the modern argument of a “magic” number of nature was probably started by Adolf Zeising. Zeising was a German psychologist who argued that the golden ratio was a universal law that described “beauty and completeness in the realms of both nature and art… which permeates, as a paramount spiritual ideal, all structures, forms and proportions, whether cosmic or individual, organic or inorganic, acoustic or optical.”

      Most mathematicians believe this is nonsense. We have artist running around overlaying mathematical equations, they have zero understanding of, on everything. Strictly speaking, it’s impossible for anything in the real-world to fall into the golden ratio, because it’s an irrational number. You can get close with more standard aspect ratios. The 3:2 ratio you speak of or the 16:9 display on your HDTV all float around it. But the golden ratio is like pi. Just as it’s impossible to find a perfect circle in the real world, the golden ratio cannot strictly be applied to any real world object. It’s always going to be a little off.

      Having said that; there are some mathematical equations and ratios generally accepted to be aesthetically pleasing by artist and designers. Every professional photographer knows about the rule of thirds. On the other hand some of the most famous and highest priced photos and paintings break every rule in the book……It does seem beauty is in the eye of the beholder, which has little to do with mathematics.

      The argument of magic numbers really doesn’t matter. What’s important is what Fenn believes. If he bought into the magic numbers hysteria did he design the poem using them? There are many ingenious and imaginative solutions being put out there but I haven’t seen one applied to the entire poem in a cognitive manner. If a theory doesn’t lead to a spot to search it is basically useless, however ingenious it is.

      I certainly applaud your creativeness; it is much better than burning books looking for hidden messages in my opinion.

      • The English word “beaver” comes from the Old English word beofor or befer (recorded earlier as bebr), which in turn sprang from the Proto-Germanic root *bebruz. Cognates in other Germanic languages include the Old Saxon bibar, the Old Norse bjorr, the Middle Dutch and Dutch bever, the Low German bever, the Old High German bibar and the Modern German Biber. The Proto-Germanic word in turn came from the Proto-Indo-European (PIE) word *bhebhrus, a reduplication of the PIE root *bher-, meaning “brown” or “bright”, whose own descendants now include the Lithuanian bebras, the Czech bobr and the Welsh befer, as well as the Germanic forms.[8]

  15. Keep going down these paths, please. Because IMO you will never find it this way. You are doing what he said not to do. But please keep trying to solve the poem this way, makes my odds better.

    • Ha! I’m tickled by comments from “the dart throwers” who enjoy throwing darts at others ideas and apparently use the same strategy to find where to start. Post up a map and throw darts for a starting place.

      I don’t mind being picked apart. But certainly enjoy banter with the regulars who have ideas to discuss or can tell a good joke.

      • 42,
        “A guys walks into the bar and meets a short person that claims to be a leprechaun. Yada, Yada, Yada…”

        I appreciate interesting theories as much as the next person but think about it.

        1) You posted 5 random ideas relating to numbers that you arbitrarily picked out (why not count all the letters instead of lines and sentences then divide by 3.78, why not Section 4 or Section 6, personally I think 10 deg is where warmer than 0 deg so why does it halt at 32?).

        2) You failed to tie these thoughts together into a comprehensive solution to the poem.

        3) You contradicted yourself regarding what WWH is (32 or basin).

        4) You give no rational as to why Fenn would known about this stuff, be interested in this stuff (“I was hoping for D’s”).

        5) And, as tickle points out, it appears that you’re doing exactly what Fenn told us not to do (numerology).

        So I agree with tickle 100%. Post what you want and it’s you’re right to complain that this is being viewed unfairly but you haven’t presented any kind of convincing case as to why any of this is relevant. IMO you are grasping at straws, but by all means please continue along these lines.

        Where’s my dart board?

        • Colo,
          I recall the story of Fenn knowing the difference between 2 square miles and 2 miles squared when his math teacher did not. I think Fenn is probably gifted at math. One interesting fact 17% of High School drop outs are in fact gifted. Personally, I would rather over estimate this mans abilities than underestimate them.
          42 … are absolutely right you must be able to figure out the starting point, and it has to be in the poem. This was my approach, as well. Fabulous insights!

          • Hi Betsy,
            I’m guessing that if 42’s discussion rises to the level of fabulous insights, there must be a significant correlation between her information and your presumably much different search location.

            Would you mind walking us through how cyrillic characters, golden ratios, the number 32, and music theory all dovetail into your solution/search area?

      • I by no means am throwing darts. I have a solution. Just need a little time to make the drive. And before I get asked, “Then post it”, why would I post it if I believe that it is correct?
        Everything about my solution has been thought and analyzed. Nothing about it is accidental. There are no “stretches” in my solution. It is a cohesive, fluid solve that goes from one point to the next and follows the poem.
        Might I be wrong? Sure. But can I say that I followed his directions to the letter. Yes.

        • I agree, Tickle. F said to keep it simple. He constructed the poem using words to describe locations that would lead us to the treasure, like an architect. A Basin is a lower elevation, then starting there, dropping even lower would probably put you below 5000ft, unless the Basin is on the top of a mt. No, they are near a base or valley.
          I respect 42’s thought process, but IMO, F kept it simple for a reason, because us adults forget how to think simple and that will keep us searching for years!
          I asked F if he was a Mason, he relied, “No.”.
          And Dal, Meek stated (not exact words), that he camped near the hot spring area and it was the warmest he had been in weeks. But I still don’t feel F would hide it in YS.
          I’m currently in S. Montana, enjoying a warm motel room and much needed shower. I head out again tomorrow , to search my honeyhole, but keep getting waterfall mist in my eyes as I search below the home of Brown.
          I’m watching for Ezmeralda, and we can share a brew at my fire. I’m in a red ’15 Jeep.
          Good luck 42.
          ¥Peace ¥

          • “The poem in my book is something that I changed over and over again. When you read the poem it looks like just, just simple words there. But I guarantee you that I worked on that. I felt like an architect drawing that poem.”

            “I’m not flippant about this. It’s not something somebody is going to be able to do on spring break or a Sunday afternoon picnic. I’m looking a hundred years down the road, maybe a thousand years down the road. People don’t understand that.”

            “The person that finds it,” Fenn said, “is going to be a person who thinks and plans and has an analytical mind and uses logic, not someone who has a hunch.” 

            I have not found where fenn has said keep it simple. Maybe you can help me with that, Donna.

          • F said there were no hidden codes, no astrological things, no cross word puzzles, no anagrams…but can’t remember his exact wording. Goofy can direct you to his quote.

          • Donna M. enjoy your trip. i never realy thought of going to yellow stone much before i started reading the blog. after seeing all the pictures we hope sometime in future to go.hope you have a great trip, be safe and run if your see an elk in a moose costume. lol

          • Seeker, read scrap book 62. I think that throws the 32 theory out the door. Just simply the poem, google and or a good map.
            It’s sraight forward.

          • Donna,

            Yes, don’t use those method. Codes, Latin, etc. The keep it simple stupid is an over simplification as well. I have posted it many times as a reminder.

            The comments from fenn as I shown above in my last comment, say that as well. This is where reading the poem falls short to the intent of the Author, IMO. But if folks want to think that he intended this to be simple as to the kiss method that fine. I just wanted to make sure that fenn never actually stated such.

            “Someone unfamiliar with your poem receives a message that says “meet me where warm waters halt, somewhere in the mountains north of Santa Fe”. Would they be able to work out where to go? If they can’t, would they need the whole poem, another stanza, or just a line or word to help them on their way? ~Phil Bayman 

            There are a few words in the poem that are not useful in finding the treasure Phil, but it is risky to discount any of them. You over simplify the clues. There are many places in the Rocky Mountains where warm waters halt, and nearly all of them are north of Santa Fe. Look at the big picture, there are no short cuts. f ”

            You said “I agree, Tickle. F said to keep it simple.”

            I just never seen that he said “keep it simple.” I just want to make sure, Not unlike the “show the poem to a child” we start thinking that Fenn stated something and never did.

            It’s ok if you believe in the KiSS Idea. I don’t see it and from this… and the comments above… I don’t think fenn intended it as well.

          • It sounds like your searching in my solve location, tell me, have you been wise and found the blaze yet to pinpoint your solve or are you just randomly still looking for the blaze and the chest?

    • im ok with all thoughts on this and its great but at times we all go to far with it, I am pretty sure you dont need to be a mathematician to find it is all. i wish us all luck.

    • Ron – some people persist in their erroneous solves, so certain they are right that they blame their lack of discovery on Fenn. This thing is way too involved to be a hoax. No one would put that amount of effort into a hoax.

      Regarding some of your other observations, I think it would helpful to you if you started noting the contradictions in some of the things Fenn says. On the one hand he says it is difficult, no one is going to stumble on it and whoever finds it is going to earn it. On the other hand he says show it to a child. Unless that child is some kind of savant, this is an obvious contradiction. So what does it all mean? That is for us to figure out.

      I hesitate to conclude that someone has gone too far because I believe this is way more complicated than most people give it credit for. That is not to say that some people aren’t going too far.

  16. 42,
    I am afraid I don’t follow your reasoning, or possibly nomenclature for this concept. I agree with a compass rose having 32 points but do not understand 3:2 as the golden ratio. The way this concept can be understood is that the sum of two numbers, say a and b, equals c which has the same ratio to a as does a to b. This is expressed numerically as 1+ the square root of 5 divided by 2 or 1.618….not 3:2 as you stated above. Using Pythagorean theorem with the 3 as a and 2 as b you can find for c, 3.6055… All basic geometry that a child would conceivably know and understand, but how is this helpful? Not to be antagonistic but rather to generate serious discussion about the nine clues as framed by your analysis. We are given the numbers six, four, nine and twenty four to work with, can we use these numbers instead? I have noticed the use of Greek letters too but does this mean we should be solving clues in Cyrillic? As usual I have questions but get no answers. Here’s one for the big dogs, pun intended Goofy, has Forrest used the double omega in his earlier books?

  17. Seeker, I love your writing style! Wow with all of the mathematics lately. I do not understand much of it at all. I preferred statistics and avoided everything else. I am more of a kinesthetic learner and have to have manipulatives to figure things out first and then I can understand the word problems and their Key words–those necessary words that tell you to add, subtract, multiply or divide. In the end I seem to get the correct answer to the math problems but using a more simplified method of calculation. Otherwise, I have to be guided along like the kids on a rope with knots in it. Even though I cannot follow 3 2 math, it is enjoyable to see all the brain power burning. Happy travels, Dal.

  18. 42- Thanks for sharing your most recent ideas, I don’t agree with your line of reasoning but all interesting to read and ponder, once again learning things I never knew about. Takes a lot to post here and get darts thrown as you say, I’m sure not hating on you but you seem way out in left field. What is keeping you from going out and bringing home the gold?

  19. Whether I agree or disagree w/ this line of thinking is a moot point. I do find it totally amazing how many searchers have such varying ideas and interpretations in regards to this Chase. This is a true testament to how challenging this all is. As more time trickles by, and the search waxes and wanes, Forrest’s idea of creating a legend will come full circle and become a reality. This is some very cool stuff and I am content to play it out as long as I can. Good luck all and stay real smart out there…

  20. 42 – I like the idea of 32. I use quite a few numbers in my solve. Why would math be such an intrusion for solving something?. After all math is a universal language. Math is literally in about every step of our lives. The number 23 is a pretty well tuned number in this chase, 32 is considered the occult opposite. And its an easy way to reference Brown and Gold. I think you are on the right track 42.

  21. Goofy edited my original statement to fit format and omitted a couple important details:

    1. Copyright2014VWestfall/42
    2. This is A METHOD to determine WWWH, not a solve.
    3. It’s my opinion

    Throwing darts is simple and more fun! Pick a method, any method. But Fenn stated you have to know where to start and you have to think.

    I don’t mind my new seat at the “Over-Thinkers” table. I was contacted by an Author today asking if the rest of my solution to Forrest Fenn’s poem was as intriguing. It is. Who knows, maybe my gold will be a book deal.

  22. 32 or 320 degrees NW in my solve F is important ‘Your effort will be worth the bronze or cold’ and Fibonacci ratios are important if your trading Forex.

  23. 42 –

    You have been very generous in your giving out a new way of thinking. Many of the comments where looking at this as a solve – but just look at how many you got exploring different avenues – and imo – that is what it is going to take to solve this difficult puzzle. Think in a different way – because the way we all have been thinking is not working. And to all – as far as give it to a child – can’t FF EVER just joke around? He has a great sense of humor………..

    Thanks 42……

    • Into – I appreciate your camaraderie and kindness.

      Forrest does have a fun sense of humor in his posts. A new one would liven up the newbies and old timers too.

      I asked Goofy to post 2 photos of my last search here so folks realize I’m not all research, I do traipse thru the wilderness. How was your summer search season?

      • 42 –

        I like the traipse part – 🙂 I felt I traipsed up and down sssssoooo many times. I have one more search coming up next week. Don’t be worried or hold your breath – cuz I just don’t know how far I will go with digging.

        Looking forward to your photos……….

        • Into – with all sincerity I hope you find it!

          My searching days are over. That’s why I’m wholesaling 2600 hours of research and “over thinking”

          It would be great to see another from the blog actually find the treasure.

          • 42 –

            Awww- that is so sweet. Thank you.

            I have 4 years into this – and I might add – my solve is difficult and in some ways simple. I am sure some here, would say complicated. My actual solve part took two years to put together – and that was after the light bulb came on as to what he was doing. I knew the spot in the first place – but just knowing that – will not get you the treasure. Precisely, is what is needed and I am glad I took the road less traveled.

            Complex or simple – it is what it is – and I feel it is right.

            I owe a debt of gratitude to Deb, who not only convinced me I needed the book, but sent me one. Deb – you are a wonderful friend.

            I like your photos, 42. Very pretty area. They look very much like my spot.

  24. @Jeremy – you asked if I had found the blaze. Yes, I’ve found it.
    The Blaze is word #8 on line #17.
    I literally believe the Poem tells you it’s lazy B, or lazy E in Blaze.

  25. I have to say, IMO, I think the line:
    “Your effort will be worth the cold”
    means: the “cold” hard cash you spend searching.

  26. 42,

    I have held off commenting on your post… even though i have placed comment about others searcher comment.

    I see all this;

    F = the Golden Ratio 3:2…in math, science, art, music, architecture, aviation, nature’s design. 32 is also freezing point.
    “Listen good” In music theory a perfect circle of fifths has a frequency ratio of 3:2
    32 point Compass Rose
    warm waters halt at the word halt. Numerically, L solves to 3 and T solves to 2. Therefore, halt ends with LT or 32.

    And so on…
    Yet I have to ask, why don’t I see a comprehensive knowledge of geography?

    • Hi Seeker — I’ve held off on commenting, too, mostly because I don’t feel 42’s observations/connections are really actionable. Interesting, perhaps, if a bit fanciful. But there is nothing special about the number 32 (other than being a nice power of 2). Neither that number nor the ratio 3:2 have anything to do with the Golden Ratio. It would be like saying pi is 3.

          • I felt the Indiana imagery was apropos for treasure hunting. But I more generally relate to Mr. Beeblebrox. Not surprisingly, neither Zaphod nor Beeblebrox were available as usernames for WordPress, so I appended a suitable number.

    • Hey seeker, good question.

      This method I used to find my starting place does include knowledge of geography.

      My botg search begins where warm springs halt in a large basin on section 32 (surveyor’s knowledge is akin to geography)

      IMO the poem And TTOTC POINT to at least 4 confirmations of 32

      1.freezing Point
      2.compass Points
      3.survey Sectn 32
      4.haLT -32 numeric

      A comprehensive knowledge of geography apples to my start because my WWWH is iNSIDE a large basin where all warm springs halt.
      Moreover, my solution follows the ice free corridor where glaciers receded when temps rose above 32 degrees F (we are in the U.S. not using Celsius) allowing migration of the First People’s onto the North American Continent. Additionally, I believe the correct canyon down will be an ancient U-shaped canyon carved by glaciers rather than a V-Shaped more recent canyon shaped by water.

      IMO much of that specific location information is found in Stanza One. However, I will never reveal more of my solve publically. I’m done searching – not able to dedicate more time or resources. My solution may be incorrect but it’s deeply layered and intriguing enough to catch the attention of writers. Perhaps a Lincoln Childs type author or a suitable publisher will be interested.

      • OK. I guess I have a follow up Question. Should your Basin being In SW MT. That would be close to the area extension of the Glacial retreat. Yet your canyon is the Ice free corridor. I’m curious to how your WWWH is below Canyon down and stay within the parameters of consecutive order. Assuming WWWH is a clue and canyon down is a clue to you.
        And out of curiously what glacial time period are you in? Do you separate the Clovis and Folsom period? Does the older dryas and younger dryas come into play?

        I’m writing a book as well… Don’t worry, it not about the chase… it’s all about me. And I will add all proceeds will as well. I’m hoping to become a hundredaire. Well there is taxes, editing, percentage to sales commission… Crap I’m already in the black.

        • Sorry Seeker, you’ll have to figure it out from here on your own. Unsettling health news for me today and no plans to disclose more. You sound like a bone field expert; finish your book.

          • 42 we have a prayer chain may we add you. we would do based on blog name and health issue undisclosed. god know who you are. may god bless you and keep you

  27. Marvin, You make a very good point. I did not say I was using the methods that 42 used to solve the poem, nor do I believe the treasure could be found using these methods. I also believe that Mr. Fenn specifically tells us how to solve the poem in many ways he has told us. It surprises me how few have listened carefully and heard …..very few imo. 42 has completed his journey and I was simply recognizing what he/she had accomplished. Would I go searching with 42…no I would not. My comments could mislead other searchers and so I must respectfully take them back.

  28. Wildbirder, thanks for the offer. I appreciate your personal prayers very much but prefer not to be added to prayer chains where I’m not personally involved. You are very kind.

  29. Hi “42”,
    You have my head spinning, I was terrible in math class as a kid, and your equations would only get me lost in the wilderness. I can’t even help my kid with his complicated math homework. You are definitely more intelligent with ratios then I am. And I think your math may point you to F’s hidden secret spot.

    My only advice….Remember, Mr. Fenn is a romantic and I think he enjoys simple home-made things in nature. Best of Luck to you and Be Safe in the Wood and Brown’s home.

    • Justin,
      Lets talk about math for a moment. Even though some math is way beyond my comprehension, is that not in part why every searcher here does research? Maybe we didn’t know all about Lewis and Clark, maybe very few heard of Joseph Meek, I personally knew very little of Native Americans or the Clovis and Folsom periods. The point is, why some { i’m not imply you, but in general } seemingly eliminate math as part of a solutions because they think it’s to hard or complicated.

      One thought I had, with the use of the poem was. “But tarry scant with marvel gaze” In lines with the thought that math could be involved with the poem, I came across… with research… a math equation written by a guy named Tarry and how it helps triangulated to a position called ” Tarry point ” [ simple explanation ] That sounds like a method to me to find a 10″ sq, spot with no guessing involve. Another person by the name of Brown took Tarry’s work and refined it slightly to what is called the “9 point circle.”

      Tarry point? tarry scant?… 9 point circle? 9 clues if followed precisely? scant, a pin point or small. I think a navigator / pilot and a person with a self taught attitude could easily used Math involved with the poem. Is my line of thinking correct? who knows. But I shown a slight possibility that the poem may just be pointing in that direction, and used only the poem to come to that conclusion. But yes, I needed to research it to understand it.
      So why eliminated that the Author would do exactly the same… research and teach himself… Just like he did with the fireplace pokers, when the professionals said it couldn’t be done.

      Food for thought.

      • This “tarry point” is a very interesting concept to me because I believe that in order to be lead directly to the treasure’s hiding spot you need to have something like this to pinpoint it otherwise if your just searching random areas like many searchers do it will be like finding a needle in a haystack without a metal detector.

      • Seeker shhh! Lol.The”some searchers have solved the first two clues and been within 200ft of the chest”made me think a lot about exactly what you’re posting.I wondered if the first two clues gave them a starting point based off an equation like this…42,I enjoyed your post.I always love reading the complex solves you guys come up with..Good stuff…Btw, that 200ft quote has given me nothing but frustration.I almost wish I had never heard it.Could he be bluffing about that?

        • Thanks Fins – yes I think Fenn bluffs and know he lied to me in one email maybe as a bluff, or his dementia kicked in. I know he loves to play games.

        • I don’t think Fenn was bluffing on any distance he actually mentioned. But I also don’t think it helps. What is starting to throw me off is the older comments i have been reading. Some date back to 2012, 2011… have those comments changed much now in 2015? How many now, have the first two clues for example. Does anyone have the next clue?

          I try not to rely on comments to help that have been know to change… 500′ to 200′ and stick with others that explain what fenn feels is important…

          Oh right, The funny thing about 9 point circle is, one of the originators of that Equation is a Dorothy Brown. and If you looked up Tarry Point and 9 point circle did ya noticed the double omega’s? I had to laugh at that… I see aberrations all over the place, if I let my mind wonder enough.

          • I totally agree with you on not relying on comments.I did however hear, Forrest himself say this on a radio or podcast interview I listened to sometime ago.I thought that was a pretty huge statement, and maybe a bit of a window to understand how the poem will need to be solved.

          • Fins up,

            “I don’t know of anyone that’s inside of 200 ft, but you know, I don’t know, they tell me where they are, and some of them exactly where they are, and so that’s how I know that. But so many of them tell me that they’re in a spot that’s in close proximity to the treasure, but they don’t know that they’re that close to it.”

            Honestly, this only tells me some have just been near the location… But those folks didn’t even know. The same for most who had the first too clues… may have not known. I don’t consider these clues… I read them and simply ask, WHY didn’t the know?

            So close but yet so far… did they misunderstand a clue? or did they read the poem wrong? Fenn said there maybe 100,000 searchers… using that number I’m sure someone, somewhere, during a search walked past a clue or the chest, and I want to know WHY they did, why they kept going, why if the knew the first clues, they still went past the other seven.

            What I see out of all those statements is one common problem… They [ the searchers] kept going. So here’s my though … right or wrong, it may explain why they all kept going. HoB is in stanza 2 and the last sentence in the stanza. So everyone thinks it is a clue “after” WWWH and canyon down and not to far…

            I read it as, we are already below hoB, when we are at the place of WWWH.

            It’s not hard to understand if I said to you… I going to the store, get gas in the car, pick up a friend and all that is below south street… So now you have information of where the store is, where the gas station is and where the friend is… all below South street, It would still make The store the first clue in this hypothetical and still make south street the fourth clue… yet tells you just in a different way. That if you are at the right starting point, you are below South street.
            A poem is all about interpretation… Are we just reading that Interpretation wrong.
            Straightforwards means; in all honestly.
            Subterfuge means; dishonesty
            are we misunderstanding fenn when he used those words?

            Just throwing out thoughts… take it for what it’s worth.

          • @ Seeker

            You said:
            Honestly, this only tells me some have just been near the location… But those folks didn’t even know. The same for most who had the first too clues… may have not known. I don’t consider these clues… I read them and simply ask, WHY didn’t the know?

            So close but yet so far… did they misunderstand a clue? or did they read the poem wrong? Fenn said there maybe 100,000 searchers… using that number I’m sure someone, somewhere, during a search walked past a clue or the chest, and I want to know WHY they did, why they kept going, why if the knew the first clues, they still went past the other seven.

            My response:

            You assume that the people within 200 ft have only solved 2 clues, when in fact F has never said this. He’s only said someone hasn’t yet sent him a “complete solution” past the first 2 clues.

            You assumed that if you’d solved the first 2 clues that you’d be within 200ft (big mistake in my opinion)

            Don’t make assumptions with Fenn and don’t make bigger assumptions by combining disparate statements…it’ll only lead to more confusion.

            If I had to guess the party or person within 200ft had solved 7-8 of the clues and may very well have all 9 figured out. We just don know.

          • Don’tknownothing,

            Actually, the only comparison I made was that both searchers / parties in both situations didn’t know about the clues or how close they may have been. If I made it sound that those two comments are one in the same… my bad… they are not.

            He said no one as gotten a clue past the first two, I don’t believe he said a “complete solve” I could be wrong… but I’ll never admit it, lol.

            So as you said “If I had to guess the party or person within 200ft had solved 7-8 of the clues and may very well have all 9 figured out. We just don know.”

            Is that not a very ‘big assumption’. Maybe you have the quote of fenn stating “complete solve,” and if so, that would help clear this up… at the same time i’ll look for the statement of not solved past the first two clues.

            Maybe someone here has those at the ready and can post them to help us both out.

            Wait.. took 60 seconds and found it…

            “Dear Forrest,
            Now that the 2014 search season has ended, can you summarize the results? Ie: is anyone close to the treasure chest? Has anyone given you a solve? Thanks, puttputt.
            I know of a few searchers who have been reasonably close to the treasure puttputt, but there is no indication that they knew it. No one has given me the correct solve past the first two clues.f”

            Do you have the statement of comment that says ” complete solve” I would very much like to read it… Thanks

          • correct / edit the last part should read as; …You do have the correct statement…

            I really need to start proof reading. lol

            But again the only comparison I meant with both comments in mind was Why they didn’t know.

          • I think you may be on to something with these circles but I didn’t notice the double omegas…I did notice polar circle that stood out though to fit in “effort will be worth the cold”… In my solve the blaze gave me 2 points and one direction without a distance from a known point but those won’t make a triangle unless you connect the blaze (known point) to the 2 other points and disregard the direction

          • you said ” He’s only said someone hasn’t yet sent him a “complete solution” past the first 2 clues.”

            Fenn said, “No one has given me the correct solve past the first two clues.f”

            If we want to mince words here [ and I do know what solves means … heck, I’m the Multiple Meanings guru.]

            If a few searchers knew the first two “correct clues.” Why did the past by the chest?

            And if “others searchers” were near a 200′ foot area of the chest, Why didn’t they find it?

            The point was not about what a clue is or how close someone was. My thought process is how did they screw up? Why didn’t either parties find the chest. My personal conclusion is they are reading the poem wrong.

            You said. “If I had to guess the party or person within 200ft had solved 7-8 of the clues and may very well have all 9 figured out. We just don know.”

            I agree we just don’t know… if they have any of those other clues at all. But I disagree that they could have “even all 9 clues.” and not find the chest. That’s is impossible. since the clues are suppose to lead precisely to the chest.

            But here’s a thought. The first two clues lead to a place… the remainder of the seven clues are at the same place. a small area of a couple 100 yards lets say… could the other seven clues walk you to to the chest in that small area? Sure they could. Could that place searchers within a 200′ area of the chest? why not.

            Could ALL those searchers from both different groups at different time walk right pass the chest… They seem to do just that. If that is plausible then one conclusion would be that they all read the poem wrong. So I ask myself why did they read it wrong. One thought that came to mind is hoB as a clue, is what they went to search for. Could this “step” be a mistake?

            Could, ‘ Put int below home of Brown ‘ already be done? but without knowing, understanding the significance of where they were to that fact… everyone went looking for it.

            The 1st three line in stanza 2 or the 1st sentence in stanza 2, tells of WWWH, canyon down, not far…
            Then another sentences appears saying “put in”. Is this actually telling us WE need to put in someplace? or that those lines above ARE put in?

            Just a different interpretation of how to read the poem. Take it anyway ya like.

            But before anyone says you change the orders of the clues… Nope didn’t… I change the understanding of how to see the clues… IF WWWH is clue one, in this hypothetical, it still is, If canyon down and not far, clue two… still the same.
            If clue three is hoB, like most think it is… it’s still clue three. The reading is just different, not the clue or even clue’s location, not in the poem or in the field.

            Reading it this way only changes “how” the poem is read / interpret. And maybe why the others searchers went by the next clues… no matter how many of those other clues they had.

        • When I learned of FF’s statement about only the first two clues have been solved, I started to think different and change my approach. I found, like others that there must be a known road or trail nearby but not very close to indulgence. Second, that the WWWH, is either very difficult or easy to decipher. In addition, the search vicinity of some searchers eludes to a clue(s) that are being mistranslated. So, I took a kid’s view and applied a few hints from the book and what Forrest said and found a location. I Hope to search there soon, but had to delay my plans for a few weeks. I think, but not sure, that indulgence is in NM man made contemporary ruin in the woods on a hillside. But, IMO.

          • I think, but not sure that the Norhern NM Red River area and the highways are where indulgence might be found. But, I’m open to other possibilities.

          • Bells mountain, maverick mountain, 10 mile road/ 10 mile lake, Kidd, Mt. Etc. are all words that Fenn has said in interviews and they are all found in southwest Montana!

          • Everything is there, but I still am not sharing everything that I have found because I feel that I am very close and my search just lacks some refinement and more time to look, otherwise, I wouldn’t be making a 5th trip from Texas to Montana next July. By the way I just got into this mid-May 2015 and have already made 1 trip to angelfire, New Mexico and 4 to Montana…I’m hooked!!!

          • do to hubby work schedule it would have to be dinner around 5:30 or 6:00 and will have to be Thursday. we are short on spending cash till Wednesday and he has choir on wed evening.

  30. Goodness, gracious great balls of fire!
    I go away in the hospital for three days and the blogs just explode.
    I just had congestive heart failure and took on 20 pounds of fluid.
    I’m OK now.

    42, sorry I couldn’t share this thought sooner.
    32 degrees is the temperature at which water freezes.
    Everyone know 33 degree water is very, very cold water.
    The water ceased to be “warm” at a much higher temperature.

        • Will do special. Off topic, I am so saddened by the valley fire that hit lake county yesterday. We listened to the scanner from 2 pm to midnight and in that time it trapped many people trying to evacuate, unknown if they were able to. First responders were working themselves to exhaustion. It appears that large portions, hundreds of homes were lost. Middletown, cobb and hidden valley, very beautiful, vibrant mountain communities, half gone if not more. This is the worst fire storm ever. Pray my friends, please. So many are now homeless. Sorry, not trying to be ominous, I am merely calling for the power of prayer. Thank you all!

          • JD –

            It’s so sad ………. I will pray for all.

            It’s really not off topic as Forrest did indeed consider the ravages of a fire.

            Stay safe……….

          • jdiggins,

            The fires are about a couple hours away from us, yet not close enough to begin reaching across the Bay.

            I am praying for the safety of all, a long with the the animals of the forest. Their plight is just beginning, unfortunately.

            Thank you for YOUR prayers and thoughtful post.


          • May God in his mercy protect them and send others to provide shelter and care. Will definitely be praying jdiggins.

          • May those in danger find shelter, may those fighting these fires be safe, may the western states find relief from the drought and may specialklr be well. Glad you’re home special 🙂

          • I’m sorry about the fires Jdiggins.

            One silver lining about the chaos and destruction of fire is that it brings people back together to help each other like people used to do in neighborhoods.

          • The prayers are going up, Jdiggins!

            Thank you, CindyM.
            It was rough for a few days, but doing much better now.

  31. Between boiling point and freezing point all water could be considered warm because it’s subjective. If water is 45 degrees f, then theoretically 47 degrees is warm comparatively/scientifically IMO.

    Sccenarios where warm water halts imo are:
    1. At death – all bodily fluids cease and go cold.
    2. Water calcified into salt or stone formations
    3. Frozen
    4. Uranium warm/polluted catch ponds
    5. Containers holding warm water

    I believe Forrest’s place dear to him is where he last spent time with a loved one who passed away.
    The WWWH in a broad sence and specific location are simply a story/poem to get you to that place.

    interesting to me:
    AF test pilots like Forrest are familiar with the Armstrong Limit – thousands of feet in altitude where water freezes in the air…but inside the human body all warm waters/bodily fluids boil – occurs at an altitude beyond which humans can survive without pressurized environment.

    • Forgot to add. Warm colored waters (red, orange, yellow) as in geothermals in Yellowstone halt outside their large scale basin above 5000 feet.

      • Diggin, two things I’ve discovered which should tickle your fancy…

        Gypsy =
        GPS to Y’s
        Follow the Y’s in poem and on ground search. Hugely important IMO.
        In ancient languages F=Y

        Since you search Montana look closely at
        Forrest’s map in tftw: the Y
        “in the Rocky Mountains” is in Montana. The hiding spot is “hidden in the text”
        It’s also near the Gallatin River which is suspiciously hidden or shaded out.

        Gypsy music is hinted at in the poem and TTOTC IMO.

  32. 42 –

    I’m reminded of colors found in ancient arrow heads and tools. (* The Fenn Clovis Cache).

    I also have a very strong sense that Skippy Fenn would be the only other person whom would know where his brother put the chest. Their bond ‘remains’ an extraordinary one.


    • SL – those strong bonds do seem likely connections to the location, which “if” correct might eliminate New Mexico.

      If hinging your solution on discovery of artifacts, given the available info from Fenn, his dad is a stronger candidate.

      Skippy, f’s mother, lost child, cache are my ‘guesses’ as to why the place is “dear” to him. The poem has Montana written all through it.
      M o n t a n a = 42 numerically.

  33. Seeker, It was re to an earlier post. The computer here does not cooperate and many times misplaces my posts and replies. Any way it is all interesting.

  34. 42, I think my only real critique is that you state that F = the Golden Ratio “3:2”, but then that somehow translates to a lot of “32” (no colon) being encoded into the poem, the book, and the actual spot. 32 and 3:2 are very different objects. It may very well be that 32 matters, but I wouldn’t personally throw 3:2 into that as evidence of it mattering.

    I say “critique” because it’s flawed. Still, it’s a very common practice in linking things to the 23 enigma as well ( People find any pattern where 2 and 3 occur and call it a 23, no solid justification behind it besides the two numbers happen to be there (albeit separated by a very important colon), and link it to the 23 enigma. 2 [colon] 3 is not 23. 2 [space] 3 is not 23. But for some reason we look at it and say, oh, 23 is totally at play. A lot of people do it, so who knows, may FF does that too. He’s human just like the rest of us.

    Just pointing out a flaw that may not matter. Otherwise it’s a very creative method.

    • Jeremy – good points.

      With loads of respect given to Forrest for his poetic and marketing genius; and the terrific adventures I’ve had searching…

      My critique of his poem is that he wrote it from the perspective of a rich genius who didn’t want to become irrelevant.

      Personally, I don’t have enough free time, travel finances or intelligence to conclusively solve it.
      Apparently no one else has either.

      He says he worked on it 15 years; thinks it could take a hundred or thousand years to solve; says no one on spring break will find it – and yet encourages red necks from Texas with no jobs to load the truck and hit the trail.

      I hope it’s found while Forrest is alive. People will lose interest without his input & encouragement that it can be solved and found.

      • Yeah, I’m not sure one could “conclusively” solve it, even if they have the chest in hand, unless he includes the actual solve along with the gold (which I think all of us hope is included).

        It would be really funny if someone opens the chest, reads the final solve, and says to themselves, “Wow. I really thought that shiny rock over there was the blaze! It was the tree?”

        Without a confirmer in the poem, the puzzle is kind of like I’m guessing of a number from 1 to 3000. 10? Nope. 386? Nope. 1592? Nope. What was it? 1592.2

        .2? Dang, I was thinking integers, not numbers!

        Maybe that’s why it might take a thousand years.

        32 would be a great confirmer, so I wouldn’t give up on it. It just sounds like most of the trouble is having 3:2 fit in there somewhere. I would just abandon it and work the other angles.

      • 42,
        With respect… I think you couldn’t be more wrong on some of the things you just said… But we both have different opinions, nothing wrong with that.

        I think fenn simply want to get others to enjoy what he loves to do, explore the wiles of nature, get back tothe simple things in life, and he wrote the poem not only to challenge our minds, make it fun, but to influence others and future generations.

        Time is something you plan, move around, use, to do what you enjoy doing… why in this day and age with all this electronics and technology, we seem to have less and less time. That seems strange to me.

        You said; “He says he worked on it 15 years; thinks it could take a hundred or thousand years to solve; says no one on spring break will find it – and yet encourages red necks from Texas with no jobs to load the truck and hit the trail.”

        I think your reading way into those thoughts… My thoughts is… He didn’t make it easy and wanted folks to truly put the same efforts he did into the chase… there is a box full of gold and trinkets worth approx 1 mil. he’s not going to just hand it to you.

        Dedication is key here… not simple… not obsession. The red neck from Texas comment… says to me think about how to approach a problem presented and fix it attitude. A Cowboy way of thinking if you will. Use what you have available to you and solve the problem.
        This type of person breaks down on the side of the road and opens the hood of that pickup, and others call triple A and stand on the side of the road twiddling their thumbs.

        Is there a little ego involved, sure. Just the same ego as when found, that person will have as well. Nothing wrong with a little self esteem.

        • It’s crossed my mind more than once that perhaps we need to read the poem with a southern draw, thus the red-neck from Texas comment.


          Where Warm waters halt
          Where warm water’s hauled

          There will be no paddle up your creek
          Beano = be no
          a pure creek = up your creek

          its no place for the meek
          its snow place for the mink
           its snow place for them eek
           it’s no place for the mink

          But tarry scant with marvel gaze
          butterry, butteries can’t
          but harry
          but harry’s can‘t

          Just take the chest and go in peace –

          just ache the chess and go whimpy‘s
          just take = just ache
          go in peace = go Wimpy’s

          The list goes on….

          Scott W

    • 23 skidoo

      1. Each parent contributes 23 chromosomes to the DNA of a child.
      2. It takes 23 seconds for blood to circulate throughout the entire body.
      3. In humans, the 23rd chromosome determines gender.
      4. There are 23 letters in the Latin alphabet.
      5. Julius Caesar was stabbed 23 times when he was assassinated.
      6. Earth’s axis is off by 23.5 degrees.
      7. The Knights Templar had 23 Grand Masters.
      8. William Shakespeare was born on April 23, 1564.
      9. William Shakespeare died on April 23, 1616.
      10. The ancient Egyptian and Sumerian calendars begin on July 23.
      11. The Titanic sank the morning of April 15th, 1912 (4 + 1 + 5 + 1 + 9 + 1 + 2 = 23)
      12. The Mayans believed the world will end on December 23, 2012 (20 + 1 + 2 = 23)

      Yeah, I don’t see how 23 can be related the chase. Move on nothing to see here.

      • It’s fun with numbers. The idea being that you can make anything equal 23, even the Chase.

        Forrest Fenn’s experience at the waterfall was on 12/22/68. Two nights later he walked in his front door in Lubbock.

        1 + 2 + 2 + 2 + 6 + 8 = 21, two days later, his homecoming = 23.

        I didn’t even put a lot of thought into that 🙂

  35. Loading the truck and hitting the trails might suggest using the current ‘free’ time in what might well become one of the more productive and best experiences of a lifetime?


  36. There are major problems with all of this. The first is that the golden ratio is an irrational number and it is not equal to 3:2. It is equal to 1.6180339887… . Deciding that you are going to call that 3:2 and then converting that to 32 is beyond the pale. Sorry.

    • I agree that proclaiming 3:2 to be the equivalent to the golden ratio or phi is inaccurate and the lack of explanation of how phi factors into this analysis represents one of the major weaknesses of this entire theory or “method”. The reasoning from phi to 3:2 is a non sequitur. The whole reason that the discovery of the golden ratio or phi was so shocking was that it the first time that it challenged a cosmic view that said that the cosmos was orderly and based on whole numbers or their ratios. The golden ratio is an irrational number–meaning it cannot be expressed as a fraction. If phi forms the basis of the poem and/or clues somehow–then it could be expressed by way of a formula wouldn’t it? On the other hands maybe the number 32 is important to unraveling the poem but without the misapplication of phi why would it be? I guess I’m skeptical about a numerology or formula approach because I just don’t think FF to be the kind of guy to fancy it. I also think scrapbook 62 tells us that we don’t need to “go there”. My opinion only.

      • Raven,
        please do tell us “what Forrest fancies” in his preference for poem structure.

        Forrest said he felt like an “architect” “drawing” the poem.

        Have you ever looked at architectural drawings? Everything is based on drawing to scale with numbers. Here are common architectural scales used.

        one-inch-to-the-foot (1″=1′-0″)
        (1:12)/one-half-inch-to-the-foot (1⁄2″=1′-0″) (1:24)
        three-quarters-inch-to-the-foot (3⁄4″=1′-0″)
        (1:16)/three-eighths-inch-to-the-foot (3/8″=1′-0″) (1:32)
        one-quarter-inch-to-the-foot (1⁄4″=1′-0″) (1:48)/one-eighth-inch-to-the-foot (1⁄8″=1′-0″) (1:96)
        three-sixteenths-inch-to-the-foot (3⁄16″=1′-0″)
        (1:64)/three-thirty-seconds-inch-to-the-foot (3⁄32″=1’0″) (1:128)

        What if a map exists in the poem drawn to scale. For instance drop poem onto a grid where every letter’s square = 20 feet or 1:20 scale.

        IMO anyone who won’t look numerically doesn’t take Fenn at his word on architect drawing, or doesn’t understand how an architect “draws”.

        • I don’t think any of us need to speculate as to what Forrest fancies because I think he clearly tells us what he thinks in scrapbook 62. Perhaps we disagree on the meaning of Forrest statement re: working like and architect in creating the poem. It seems you take it literally–I do not. I agree that an architect generally does not draw to actual size– that would be a bit difficult and use a lot of paper in most cases wouldn’t it, so yes, they draw to a scale. But I don’t think he was referring to “grid” paper when he made that statement. I understand his statement to refer to the creative process that an architect employs when designing a project and communicating that design to others. It is a creative process, not simply a composite of dimensions. An architects plan or sketches, modifies, and re-sketches until they get it just right. The final “plan” then conveys the various parts of a project and how they go together. You seem to think that “The scale” is paramount to anything else that an architect does–I do not. To each their own…

  37. Seeker,

    I agree wholeheartedly that Forrest’s hope was that folks would experience the exhilaration of exploring out doors – the thrill of the chase. You can see in my photos and personal statement I’m grateful and his mission was accomplished in me.

    In response to your comment..
    Fenn chose E V E R Y word and letter in that poem over a 15 year time span; said don’t discount any word; and appears to plan his public statements carefully.

    So it’s hard for those of us who have never met him or spent time with ff -a stranger – to determine if he “meant” or intended something other than his words. Fenn himself said it well in TOTC (paraphrasing)
    No one but you knows your thoughts.

    for example only: you said, “He didn’t make it easy and wanted folks to truly put the same efforts he did into the chase.”

    Equal effort = 15 years of time??

    See how people get hung up on our words here and hammer away? It’s unfortunate, and I did that only to illustrate that many bloggers would rather rip away at details, correct us, than consider the overall solutions. Unless of course it’s fluff, and engratiating statements – then everyone’s happy. No one gets closer to a correct solution.

    Eleven searches; 2600 hours of thought, maps, memoirs, every literary reference & book; O.Russel 5x; Meeks memoirs, every art book Fenn wrote; GE; blogs, etc. I’ve given 110% and I’m no closer,
    Not sure anyone is.

    Glad to give away pieces of my research now, no hopes of finding it personally or ever searching again. I have the bones of a great adventure mystery novel written; hoping to shop it to an author in that genre.

    • 42,
      I agree about getting hung up on words… That is in part the difficulty of understanding how to interpret the poem. The Effort = 15 years? No, what I meant was just the same effort he put in, he expect the finder to have to do. No one will find the trove just by going on a vacation and having a look on a hunch.

      You said. Eleven searches; 2600 hours of thought, maps, memoirs, every literary reference & book; O.Russel 5x; Meeks memoirs, every art book Fenn wrote; GE; blogs, etc. I’ve given 110%

      I think The Wolf nailed it when he said [ paraphrasing ] ‘The poem is meant to fail at first’ and in part, what I think the line in the poem refers to ” Your effort will be worth the cold.”
      To me means, in part, cold searches, cold, research etc. Cold; as in a seeker. You will have worked hard and failed many time before understanding the poem, but your dedication to keep going is what is needed. There is only going to be one searcher that will accomplish this task and earned it.

      • Seeker, you’re wrong about me. Dedication is not needed. I have absolutely No desire to dedicate even 1 more minute to solving the poem.

        Next time I find myself in a mountain meadow It will be for the sheer pleasure of enjoying nature… not to chase Fenns leprechaun notions.

        • Ok 42,

          That’s your choice. I don’t need a reason to go out to the Rockies and just enjoy it either. I also have not gone or will looking for the chest until i have a solve that I can dissect… to do so is just a waste of time and money… If, that is the purpose of going, to look for the chest. And why a lot of folks have left the chase or just stop looking.

          The allure of that leprechaun gold is why most are in the chase… personally I’m in it for the solve. It doesn’t matter to me if it’s a million in gold or a shiny marble, in the end, it’s the solve.

          best to you….

          • Seeker & 42: What I find remarkable is that so many people have specifically traveled — in many cases multiple times — to look for Fenn’s Rainbow on not much more than a wing and a prayer. A lot of the solves that people have shared are pretty fatally flawed, and yet they go anyway with inexplicable confidence.

            I’m with you, Seeker. I firmly believe that a correct solution is self-consistent, has no flaws, and will allow the finder to navigate straight to the treasure with confidence — or at least close enough that Indulgence can be found in less than an hour. Until that level of confidence is reached, the solution is wrong, and you might as well stay home and play Canasta. I don’t have such a solution in hand, but I have a systematic, exhaustive methodology to get me there.

          • I believe it’s gonna take a little bit more than an hour to search the area it is in. A half day or more perhaps.

        • sorry to hear that 42 we love the chase and we too will taking a break after this search. 1200 mile round trip and driving around bring it to 1400 miles. it get old fast even if you plan side trips and go knowing the odds are not good. my biggest mistake on our last trip was not having confidence in our solve, God, or my self. someone wrote about the problem with confidence and with me its a problem of doubt. where we are searching we could fill the canyon with 30 people and we could still walk right by it because if you are in the wood it is dense but extremely beautiful and awesome place to be.

  38. Wildbirder – this Thursday dinner is fine – I would enjoy meeting you. Please post your local phone number on here so I can contact you to work out details.

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