The Nine Clues…Part Sixty

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This NINE CLUES is now closed to comments. To continue the discussion please use the most current NINE CLUES POST.

This is the place to discuss the nine clues…For instance:
What are the nine clues…
Is the first clue “Begin it where warm waters halt” ?

297 thoughts on “The Nine Clues…Part Sixty

    • I always was curious as to why the b in Brown is capitalized? Does that have any influence or what have you?

    • SL, thanks for sharing that link. I have several of Eric Sloane’s books and enjoy reading anything by him…an extraordinary person!

      Have you had the opportunity to read Forrest’s book ” $17 A Square Inch”?

    • SL your pun was not wasted. IMO drawn is the big picture. Just not quartered and drawn as Richard III

  1. I’ll bite…The clues (as I see them currently) seem to be

    -wwwh
    -canyon
    -not far/too far
    -Brown
    -no place/meek
    -paddle/creek
    -water high (NOT loads)
    -blaze
    -look down

    I’m a firm believer that Forrest has told us where the first clue is in either one of two places.

    • Those are pretty much my thoughts on what the 9 clues are too. Now I’m just trying to interpret them correctly!

    • my 9 for the “path to follow”:
      Line 5
      Line 6
      Line 9
      Line 13
      Line 16
      Line 17
      Line 20
      Line 22
      Line 24

      • New concept for me, it’s already sent me into dizziness but after a break I’ll hit it again. clue 1) from the book giving major location clue, 2) first stanza info about that location to reassure correctly understood, 3) line 5, 4) lines 5&7, 5) line 8, 6) line 9 & 10, 7) line 11 & 12, 8) line 13, 9) 21 & 22

    • Just out of curiosity Mark or anyone, How can you tell what represents a clue before you understand what it refers to?

      Does this method of picking out what someone thinks should be a clue hinder the understanding of what it is we need to know and why?
      Maybe this is why we neglect to concentrate on the last two stanzas and use the first as an intro of sorts. I mean… shouldn’t the poem make some kinda sense in what we’re being told, even if it is a directional point to point.

      Fenn asked a question, and even answered that question in stanza 5… why would that not be a clue. If all this poem is, is just directions [ step by step ] 1/2 the poem seemingly is not needed, from folks posting there ideas of the nine clues, with most stopping at the blaze.

      I wish someone could explain why 12 to 15 lines of the poem are not used as reference to a clue. This has always mind boggled me.

      • Seeker – If someone could answer exactly what the clues are or what they consisted of in the poem, we would be one big step forward. When f throws out things like WWWH is not a dam, the blaze is a clue, etc, it is difficult to ignore that the clues just may be these various lines in stanzas 2, 3, and 4. Maybe they are more complex and contained in the other parts of the poem, but then that is not exactly straight forward. Of course, f’s statement about not discounting any of the words in the poem comes into play; that whole statement might be worth another read and some more thought.

      • Seeker asked why 12-15 lines might not be used as clues if one thinks the clues stop at looking quickly down after the blaze. One explanation is that Forrest is hiding the important info in the first stanza because it doesn’t look like a clue and covering up that cleverness with similar looking stanzas at the end of the poem though those don’t have important information to help locate the tc…IMO. I’d call it 10 lines at the end of the poem.

  2. I think the first stanza includes some sort of a hint or perhaps a clue. I think there’s something there that you need to solve which will get you somewhere in the right area for the rest of the clues. As Forrest has said, there’s a lot of WWWHs in the Rocky Mountains so I really believe there’s something there to point you to the right general starting point.

    • Hey Jeff,

      You said, “I think the first stanza includes some sort of a hint or perhaps a clue.”

      Seeing that the first clue is an important one, and without it we got notta… Is stanza one the holder of the first clue? You may remember fenn saying about stanza 2 [paraphrasing] there’s 2 or 3 clues right there…
      Curious thought for me was, If stanza 2 hold three clues, is one of them the first clue or was this a subtle hint that clues two and three are in stanza 2 and clue one is in stanza 1?

      Where do we find the starting point… as we have been told, we need to know where to start.

  3. Possible Blaze: Meteorites Often these fireballs of metal and rock burn up in a blaze of glory, and many do not survive their impact with the Earth’s surface. Those that do though start a more settled life here on Earth as meteorites. Some might even claim to be the new sheriffs in town – they’re that big and resistant to weathering.

    • How do you make a connection to a location? or is the blaze not a location?
      Ill be honest… this comment Uken has me crossed eyed… lol. Completely out of focus in understanding where your gong with it.

      • There are known craters due to meteorites, there are known meteorite locations and metal detectors respond to meteorites.

        Blaze could be a location, even the location or it could be that this might tie to a particular sighting of a meteor in the past recorded in the way past by the ancients or the recent past.

        just food for thought. Oh yeah, and meteorites can pass the test of time unless they are relocated which even the largest have been moved, so I would be looking for a meteorite field or one that f has strategically placed.

      • I guess I meant ‘conical’… “If the meteoroid maintains a fixed orientation for some time, without tumbling, it may develop a conical “nose cone” or “heat shield” shape.”

  4. I do not have the exact wording, however I recall Forrest saying something about the person that finds the chest will have read the poem and studied it.

    With a fresh point of view I am of the mind that I missed the mark thinking that WWWH is the starting point in the poem.

  5. My son believes that the entire TTOTC poem basically resolves around one, specific area/region. (The one he’s concentrated upon!)

    My son thinks we should have both grown up up during the days of the wild west.

  6. “As I have gone alone in there”

    In TTOTC cover the word “confidence” is used, now I know many have talked about that word and what it means to them. Enough confidence to know that the treasure is really “there” for the taking or something along those lines. So, for most of us our objective is to try and figure out where there is.

    Now follow along with this logic:

    Let’s say someone is hanging out at a restaurant and that someone asks the waiter hey “where” is the restroom. The waiter would more than likely point and say over “there”

    My point is this, the poem appears to be pain stakingly logical, to the degree that its simplicity is the very thing we can’t see. We use words everyday and we don’t listen to the way they sound, most of the time we don’t even think about the words we use, we just take them for granted. That automatic mind filter prevents us from seeing what it is that Forrest is saying. IMO

    • Akator

      Finally, this is the best post of all the blogs that I have been on. I learnt this 6 months ago or so. Yet, I made a promise and I will keep it until spring. I wish you luck. Happy New Year.

    • @Ak, I agree, It’s somewhat like what Seeker was saying about “I have” or “I’ve”. Why use the ones he used unless it’s possibly the lettering, sound, whatever… F does seem to talk around what he actually means, our interpretations are the most important and the most dangerous aspects of trying to solve this poem.IMO.

      • Charlie I’ve been reading what you write and I just can’t understand it. I’m looking with my eyes but my brain is not comprehending. Maybe we could take this outside the forum and discuss. New here on blog.

  7. #1: Riches new and old
    #2: WWWH
    #3: Canyon down
    #4: TFTW
    #5: HOB
    #6A: Meek
    #6B: Nigh
    #7: No paddle up “your” creek
    #8: only heavy loads and water high
    #9: Wise/Blaze

    Just a guess. IMO.

  8. Subscribe all interesting and yes the first stanza is very important because he went there alone and it had riches new and old. He knows of what he writes and we all need to work together to uncover it! It is all just on the tip of our tongues and makes us all so frustrated, we are all so close yet still so far. Happy New Year! Good luck all and Happy Trails… Ms. Girl

  9. I’ve been working on my most recent interpretation of the poem and came as cross Father Time print that had a portion of the print completed by Harry Fenn. Then, a light bulb went off and i looked at TTOTC and I saw things differently. First, all the photographs in the book and the print offset of the photo edges. I found the same with TFTW. So, instead of looking at the content of the photographs, i stood back and looked at the collection of photographs to help me translate the poem. Then, another light bulb went off and i almost fell off my chair. Any thoughts on this?

  10. I forgot to make a note of my link, but after finding and researching the print, it brought me to the Palace Printers in Santa Fe. I didnt know Palace Printers existed and is located next to the Palace of the Govenors. Since the still print today, i linked it to a hint of riches old and new.

    • Hi Rose,
      I don’t know about the Govenor’s Printers, but I do find it interesting that… thru the Chase… I was also led to The Palace of the Govenors because of its Antique doors.
      Which then reminds me of how I was led or found the Chimayo??? All very curious?

      If I may…

      The colonial pic f put out in 2013 led to Spanish artisans such as those who may have built the doors for the palace.

      The doors on the Chimayo were possibly built by one of those same artist who might have also built the doors that sustained the Pueblo Revolt on the Govenor’s Palace? Wiki
      No Matter, I think that is how I ended up in the Plaza???

      Sometimes… I think Onate, the Spanish, The Royal Rd., the Pueblo peoples, The Chimayo, and New Mexico could be where warm waters halt?

      And just so I’m not talking in riddles… Which I sometimes do on accident!
      I’ll repeat this for our new friends.
      The Santurio de Chimayo is famous for its dirt that has healing powers!

      Legend has it that… that the Tewa use to practice ceremonial events at a sacred spring that was thought to have healing power. Pretty cool huh? When the Spanish came along preaching and or trying to instill Catholicism to the Tewa, they found the sacred spring, and eventually through Stupidity and or ego, filled the spring in in order to prevent the pueblo people from practicing their beliefs… Wiki it up.
      Thus for me, this was/is one possible wwwh. When the hot springs were filled in with dirt… the warm waters were halted.

      From there you take the canyon down, this could be either way in my opinion, The High Rd. takes you both up and down either way you go… I think??? I’ve only drove it but never looked it up??? There are way too many loose ends that were tied to make f’s ball of string???

      From there (in this solve) hoB could be… Espanola??? Only the shadow knows… what ever that means?

      All another working idea… Happy New year to all of my slightly insane friends here on the Chase.
      Mark H. Happy to be here!

      • Hi Mark,
        Yup, I thought WWWH was that area too.

        I’ve done the Plaza interpretation and the Chimayo one too.

        I thought the flaming heart on the door at Santurio de Chimayo was the blaze. I searched in and around the church and also talked to one of the Fathers there. This was before I learned about the not associated with a structure comment from FF. While searching there, I found two things; one the hole in the floor where the sacred dirt is found reminded me of page 218 in TFTW book. My husband and I went into the room and I put sacred dirt on him and on me too. Then, I searched everywhere in that area and even found a statue of the Indian, Cowboy and Monk/priest there. I felt I was on to something since there was a stream that went through the property and a wooden walk way. I also checked inside the church and under the altar, I saw a round disc with a face on it. I thought there’s my go in peace. It was dusty under there and there were people in the pews and there was no way I was going to crawl under there to see what was under the disc. So, I went outside and talked to the Father and said to him “I saw something unusual under the altar” and ask him about it. He said let’s go look. We walked into the church and up to the altar. So, he kneeled down and I pointed at the disc. Then, he said that people leave things under the altar and I said “oh”. Then, I kneeled down and said “what about that disc?” He reached under and it was a plaque with Christ on it. No treasure underneath it. Although, I wasn’t about to start digging in the dirt beneath the altar with people in the pews. My grandmother, who was a Carmelite nun would die if she knew I did this and I had to draw a line somewhere. Finally, after searching twice in that area (looking at trees, old wagon with wood, doors, altars, tarry scant, and even the other church next door, etc., I couldn’t find the chest. But, we loved the area and will go back to take a less intense visit and a more relaxed view of the area.

        Now, the Santa Fe Plaza area fits the clues, but FF said at least 66,000 links North of Santa Fe (IMO), so I look there for fun, but don’t expect to find the chest there. I just love the history and who knows what research I’ll discover. I have a poem interpretation that takes me right to a location without a doubt in the Santa Fe plaza area. But, the 66,000 links rule eliminates that area as the chest location but not as a possible clue.

        • Now I remember how I made the link to the Palace Print shop in Santa Fe. The Harry Fenn print reminded me of early Santa Fe prints and G. Baumann and other artists from Canyon Dr. Let me backup further. It’s starts at the Duchess Castle, the other section of Bandolier, where the first Indian pottery school was created and philanthropists Vera von Blumenthal and Rose Dougan, (partners) taught the Native Americans the old symbols/designs of pottery. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vera_von_Blumenthal
          There was a gentleman named Chapman that marketed the items to the museum and their was also an earlier mission/church on one of the streets that was converted into a studio where the artists would lease and sell their items. I think it was called Chapman Studio. I have to go back to look up the names and places. I haven’t searched Duchess Castle, but have that on my list to search. Anyone search there? The tarry scant in the poem fits the black pottery finish as Native American’s used scant to give the pottery it’s black color.

          • Jeez Rose, I’m going to re-read everything you’ve said… but I am no where as informed as yourself, I will get back to you on this when I have done some reading.
            I will say we ran around the Chimayo too, lol. And my son and I also rubbed some dirt on us. I can’t wait to get back. I’d might try to hike that creek that runs thru the property. Thanks for the reply and I’ll be looking for your post. And yes, I thought Santa Clara Pottery… which is brown may have had something to do with the hoB. But I also think Baskets and colors like Indigo and people, and places like Espanola work as well.

            I will say that I have never thought f put the box near or in downtown SF, or around human paths, structures, or in water… just an opinion. BUT, I never rule anything out!
            I’m working north! Trying to solve “…no paddle up… only heavy loads and water high? I bet Georgia Okeeffe Could tell us!
            Mark H. Smiling!

  11. Jamie,

    On the previous nine clues page, you posted that two words are important at one point in the poem; “post” and mark”. Are they from the line “Just heavy loads and water high”?

    Fred Y.

  12. Posit (assume as a fact; put forward as a basis of argument):

    There are nine sentences in the poem. There are nine clues in the poem. The simplest conclusion is that each sentence is a clue. When Forrest states that two clues have been solved, he is saying that the poem has been solved through the first seven lines.

    (This isn’t an opinion or statement of fact. It’s a talking point to build up or tear apart. Enjoy!)

    Problem with counting sentences as clues:

    Q: You told a reporter that there are three or four clues in the second stanza. Were you telling the truth?

    A: No, I was not lying but I don’t remember a reporter asking me such a question. f 7/4/2014

    There are only two sentences in the second stanza. One must claim 1) that he’s not lying because he never said it, or 2) there are official clues (sentences) and informal clues (ie. a double standard on what constitutes clues and for some reason in this case he’s using an informal standard to say 3 or 4), or you must conclude that 3) nine sentences does not mean nine clues.

    Anyone know where a reporter might have said that? Any other reasons not to count nine sentences as nine clues?

    • Jeremy, to my uncertain knowledge he said something more like “it SOUNDS like 3 or 4 clues” but I cannot remember where he said that. So even if it sounds like 3 or 4 clues doesn’t mean it actually is 3 or 4. Maybe someone who keeps better track of Forrest’s comments can tell us where to find that Q&A. I don’t think Forrest lies and he’s pretty carful about what he says – we just need to analyze his comments to understand what he is really saying. 🙂

    • hmmm, I can see it’s going to be difficult to keep New Year’s resolutions!

      CJ’s memory is correct…. he said, “sounds like” and it was not in response to a question.
      …………………..

      …..interviewer reads 2nd stanza and says “that seems like a couple of clues to me” — f says, “that..that sounds like 3 or 4 to me”
      …..interviewer reads lines 11 & 12 and says “mmm, couple more clues there” — f says, “sounds like it to me”

      ………………….

      Thanks to Dal & Goofy, this particular interview is available here: http://dalneitzel.com/2013/03/17/media-coverage/

      • I agree, sounds like an earthquake. A sonic boom, cavitation. To have a thrill is to shake as in quake. Fault line as in line drawings. Forrest said that when someone finds the chest he wants it to “strike awe” . Shock and awe. Facial expression of marvel gaze. Seeing a trend here? Sounds like he is saying Hebgen Lake area. Hope this helps some.

      • And now all we need to understand is what a clue is and what a hint is when fenn comments… Yes he has said, A hint helps with a clue and a clue get one closer [paraphrasing]… And still we have all those others “clues” Not associated with a structure, the chest is not in Utah, Idaho or Nevada, These seem to be more hints than clues, as they don’t get one closer, nor do they seem to have anything to do with the poem.

        If we use these examples as “clues” how do they work with the poem? IMO there have been two insistence that appear to be actual clues…
        WWWH is not a dam.
        More than 8.25 miles north of SF… or 60,000 links.

        The interesting part of the ” lets harken to 1620…” [ I believe was the start of that comment] is, he said “Important numbers” as well as used the word “clue”.
        An in an e-mail fenn sent to this site from a woman, stating; [ again paraphrasing ] Here’s a woman / searcher who may find the chest because she’s doing the math.
        Forrest,

        Just cause you will probably get a laugh…i spent hours last night with those numbers below…i added them, multiplied them, found a pattern, try latitudes, hardshad #, morse code, applied it to the alphabet, searched zip codes, elevations, phone codes etc…dreamt of numbers and woke up this morning and said. If Hegben was that deep it would reach China and have a drainage hole, all the water would leak out and if you did plunk it at Hegbens depth then I could just walk around and find it. Giggles.

        “Here’s a lady who may find the treasure because she has done the math and knows exactly where it is. f”

        Maybe these were just interesting comments shared or even funny thoughts shared, But my point is, how do we attempt to understand a clue to a hint? Especially when fenn calls most of them clues. Now I understand how so many searchers see “clues” in everything the man says. Yet all I see is helpful information, using fenn’s definition of a clue vs. hint.

        Note to Loco; Only two questions this time, I’m trying…. lol

      • Right up front in the interview (paraphrase loosely)
        1) If someone finds the chest they can keep it? Yes they can keep it 2) but they’ll first have to go get it.

        Does it sound as though this can be interpreted, without twisting, an indication that it can be found but not retrieved?

        • Great question imo uken, This falls back to, what is it we have to “plan” for?~maybe. We read the poem as simply saying follow the clues and take the chest… Yet fenn has stated many time for us, to not only analyze the poem, but plan.

          I personally don’t think he was talking about bringing an extra pair of socks or a GPS, but to plan out something… maybe that is, how to “retrieve” the chest.

        • IMO, no, reading to much into it if you think that…..it’s hidden, waiting to be retrieved by the person who solves the poem, difficult but not impossible….

          • Cholly,
            Thanks for your response. I think I should also clarify what I wrote. I think it can be found and not retrieved if one chooses to not retrieve it. The next step would be to retrieve it which just might be a huge step. When I read it again it seemed like I stated one could find it and ‘not’ (able to) retrieve it.

            I do believe it is out there, can be found and retrieved and in my opinion I won’t be the one to find it. In fact I’ll bet right now $50k that I won’t find this chest. Takers? Oh, and for one dollar more I’ll quit looking for it.

      • Thanks Jeremy, for some reason I thought it was one of the Lorene Mills interviews… So I went back and listened to them this morning… Did not find this quote… obviously… but it was fun to go back and listen to them and I picked up a few things I had not noticed before…

        My comment to this is…
        1. He was not lying down when he said this… 🙂
        2. The interviewer just made a statement and did not ask a question and/or the person who said was not a reporter… imo

        Thanks for the links-

      • I listened to it many times even today. It is really something to think about. To me it is a really important statement and does aid the deep thinker. To me “Put in the home of Brown” exhibits a lot of action. Good luck everyone.

      • I guess you guys are still butt hurt. I didn’t start if you remember back in January 2015. So band me with a life sentence and I don’t plan to say I am sorry. Anyway, I do know exactly where the chest is located. Yes, I have solved the 9 clues.

        • In the morning you might wish there were a delete button for that one.. But.. let’s see how it goes… I’m sure not one to talk…

          • Sorry to beat this up.. but I realize my own post was not constructive.. and so I want to add that I believe that the finder will first have discovered a puzzle within the poem; and used the answers to that puzzle to resolve the nine clues.

            Good luck, Geydelkon.

        • Geydelkon- there you are. thats MY chest! i seen it first!
          (hey folks i told him where it is.)
          you ought to be locked up for life.
          heh

        • Gey.imo I too have solved all clues with 10 landmarks to navigate so I don’t have to search just walk to it probably see you on the trail and I’m 100 percent sure this trek. I have had 7 previous tries and been on this quest for almost 5 years biggest hint was bring a flashlight

    • Or, he simply didn’t recall and/or he didn’t view her statement of ‘sounds like’ as being a question….interesting looking back to this time, people were still thinking Canada may have been part of the puzzle, me personally I’d never of thought about Canada, the chase was done for us Yanks to get out and see the wilds, most of Canada is already there! lol, IMO!

    • Jeremy – I think this Q&A is best read in it whole form:

      “You told a reporter that there are three or four clues in the second stanza. Were you telling the truth? ~Alison R

      I don’t know what it is about girls but when I say something they automatically ask if I’m lying. Shame on you Allison R. I promise you that I get more things right than most reporters. If you were here I would make you take a dose of castor oil. Besides, if I lied to the reporter what makes you think I would tell you the truth?

      Sorry Alison, I’m off my soap box now. No, I was not lying but I don’t remember a reporter asking me such a question.f”

      I take f at his word on this one, there are 3 or 4 clues in the 2nd stanza (the fact that Alison’s question eliminated the “sounds like” is the great clarifier here). f doesn’t remember the question because there never was one (so he is right that it never was asked); but his not remembering doesn’t nullify his saying no he didn’t lie about there being 3 or 4 clues in the 2nd stanza. Before this Q&A I took the “it sounds like…” with a large grain of salt, but after this answer, I changed my acceptance of the statement to it being highly probable that there is 3 or 4 clues in the second stanza. And considering he wasn’t lying about the 3 or 4 clues in the second stanza, I extend this to his follow on statement of there being a couple clues in the last two lines of the the 3rd stanza seeing that if he wasn’t lying about the “3 or 4”, he wouldn’t have lied about the “couple” either.

      I suppose some extreme arguments could be spun to make it sound like he is trying to deceive everyone in this statement to throw people off, but I don’t buy that is a game f plays.

      So we effectively have 5 or 6 clues contained within 6 lines of the poem according to f; I am of the opinion that this pretty well destroys the theory of each sentence is a clue. Others are welcome to pursue the each sentence is a clue theory and I am not going to argue with them. I prefer to follow a path where the probabilities are the highest. We can’t “prove with certainty” much of anything with this treasure hunt, so I just look to where the most probable and logical rational leads and go that direction.

      • @JCM good discussion, I like it. I can’t make up my mind if there is a clue in the first stanza or not. The only place I can think of where Forrest tells us he went alone was to take a bath in the YNP hot springs, something to keep in mind while rereading for sure, any other places, walking barefoot after Skippy and him got in an argument, shot down over Laos into the jungle. To me the bracelet is old and new and came from Mesa Verde which is in CO. I get 2-3 clues out of the second stanza and by the time I’m at the 4th stanza the treasure has been found, leaving the last two stanzas as simple conclusions and reminders if we are to not mess with it and the clues are i order….IMO. P.S. @Uken2it thanks for the clarification!

      • JCM,

        We will only be guessing on 9 line for nine clues, or 9 sentences for nine clues, I would agree. Here’s what bothers me with the Q&A [ and yes once read in full it holds a completely different context], The ‘3’ or ‘4’ ~ well I would think fenn knows his own poem and what a clue is, So why not a set number answer? It must be one or the other, right?
        I don’t see anything misleading, or as the questioner implied, telling a lie. For me this is another way that fenn gives just enough for us to think about.

        Now to your comment ; “So we effectively have 5 or 6 clues contained within 6 lines of the poem according to f; I am of the opinion that this pretty well destroys the theory of each sentence is a clue.”

        I’m not sure which lines you are talking about, but that doesn’t matter… I see your logic either way. My only pondering here is still the use of the word clue. This has been a major dilemma as to, fenn calls everything a clue, from the today show, Q&As, interviews, comments, etc. Does he do this for a reason so he won’t hint to the readers how to decipher what a clue to a hint is, because that would show us what the needed clues to solve the poem actually are?

        And just for fun… could it be there are many needed to know ‘clues’ in the poem that are contained in 9 sentences, and after writing the poem fenn simply counted the sentences as clues?

        “Forrest, Did you intend for there to be 9 clues, or did it work out to be just right with 9? ~ halo
        “Nice thinking halo, I didn’t count the clues until the poem had been finalized. Although I changed it a few times over the months I think the number stayed about the same.f ”

        “I think the number stayed about the same?” … 3 or 4 clues in stanza two.. sounds like a couple in stanza 3. If anyone can decipher what is or is not an actual needed clue from those responses… please call me.
        This is part of the challenge in my mind, not only do we need to solve the clues, we need to find them as well. IMO Fenn is not going to hand them to us on a gold platter. which Idea of 9 line to 9 sentences is correct? Heck both could be wrong, and the poem holds only hints that leads to 9 clues in the field.

        • “My only pondering here is still the use of the word clue. This has been a major dilemma as to, fenn calls everything a clue, from the today show, Q&As, interviews, comments, etc.”

          I agree. “Clue” appears to be thrown about in a loose manner and seems to be, at times, interchangeable with “hints”, although he has drawn a distinction between the two. I mean, if you go by the website, there’s 13 clues. But only nine are perennial in interviews.

          What I’m wondering is whether there is a loose use of “clues” (appears to be) but also an official list of clues (nine) that he’s checking off as they are solved. If there’s a different criteria for these clues-that-matter, might they be the nine sentences from the poem?

          This matters a lot because, if you count sentences and accept four may have been, by the fifth sentence one already has the chest and left in peace.

          • Also, consider the alternative.

            If nine sentences does not equal nine clues,
            then nine was reiterated for some reason.

            And whatever all that might mean, compounded by his statement that he only counted them after it had been finalized, which makes it sound like an arbitrary number, which makes it weird to have been repeated.

          • JP,
            I don’t even consider the chest when attempting to solve the poem… The chest location is the final step and for me it doesn’t matter if there or no to be honest… so I never worry about it. This is a challenge of wits.

            Should the poem tell how to get to a single location [ the spot the chest lays in wait ] It can be presented in may ways, and the challenge is to find out which way it is presented. So I look at all the avenues in the hopes not to get “stuck” on one.
            hopefully that will push me in the correct reading.

            Maybe a small list of different ways of reading the poem would help.
            1. a puzzle
            2. coded message
            3. directional points needed to be traveled
            4. a description of an event [ natural or other]
            5. a description of an area [ large or small ]
            6. A journey of another or something
            7. constellation directions
            8. a course of time description
            9. The poem is all idioms or metaphors or both.
            10. The poem only hold lat. and long. nothing more.
            11. Multiple meanings / usage of all the word are needed and used.
            12. The poem is to be solved by the answers found in the book.
            13. The entire poem is in mirror image or the poem in straightforwards, but not so much the answers.
            14. On word holds the key / understanding to unlock the poem. with out it there’s no chance to solve the poem.
            15. Meanings of words used by twisting those meanings or usage of a synonym so to speak. [ example creek as a narrow passage ]
            16. The poem relates to history [ I personally dismiss this as an option ]
            17. The poem involves a math equation to solve. or triangulation of sorts.
            18. The poem is all about the Mountains north of SF.
            19. The poem is about one location and how to use that location to solve the clue[ A medicine wheel or all of them is a good example ]
            20. All the above.

            You can add any other method ya like. These have been some of my past thoughts… but my point is and will be, we need to read the poem correctly as the Author intended or we will just have memories of a great vacation.

          • You can remove #20. Some of these are mutually exclusive. For example, #10 negates all but #1, #3, #5, and #6. Others are duplicates in a broad sense. I think we can whittle this down, my friend 🙂

          • They were meant as examples only… some may have variation to another, such as Multiple meanings to synonyms.
            One example of Multiple meanings is creek by definition means a narrow passage, and a synonym for creek could be could be brook, ditch or even crick… which could be a twist in a words etc. etc.
            All the above, was my attempt at humor, as to anyone one could be correct, but I would doubt all/some should be used. This all falls into counting or trying to find a clue in the poem, How are we to read the poem to understand how to see a clue if we don’t understand the correct way of reading it.

            There are many ways to interpret what we think is a clue. WWWH is a good example of this.
            Where two or more flowing waters converge… A single body of water with no out- let… a glacier or snow cap mountain… even a time period or Glacial period, Is “in there” to mean time or “where” in time? or does it have to do with the temperature of the waters and how it affects the fish? Could warm be an indicator, not to a temperature, but by meaning your close, as in warm and cold in hide and seek. How hard is it to understand that if warm indicates a temperature it could simply imply liquid and not frozen or gaseous, and waters being plural is all waters.

            That may be hard for most to wrap their heads around, yet we were told to search in the mountains north of SF, and those mountains are the Rockies… what do the Rockies do? They disperse waters over a wide area, in this case a continent. My point to this rambling is, for me the poem needs to flow all the way through from start to finish… 9 lines thinking doesn’t do that for me. But then again I could still be reading the poem wrong, but like ya said, it’s interesting to throw out thought about it. Hopefully for more feed back.

          • Hopefully my response was likewise taken as humor. I agree, there’s a lot more than 20 approaches out there. I’d guess there’s as many variations as there are searchers. One thing’s for sure, FF launched more ships than Helen of Troy. For what it’s worth #7 never occurred to me. Good luck!

        • 3or4 clues:
          Idea to reconcile 9 clues with f’s comment. If we must use each clue twice one might say 3 or 4 clues if there 2 sentences in the stanza (2&4 clues in 2nd stanza and 1&2 clues in stanza 3). However will only find 2 clues and one clue respectively. I hope this makes sense as to what I am meaning to say. 1 clue for each sentence used twice.

          Example: 9 clues give you starting point before you go bog and same clues take you to the chest once you get there.

          Helps make sense of “solving the poem yet needing to go get it.”(my quotes)

        • Seeker – in response to your post above:

          “Here’s what bothers me with the Q&A [ and yes once read in full it holds a completely different context], The ‘3’ or ‘4’ ~ well I would think fenn knows his own poem and what a clue is, So why not a set number answer? It must be one or the other, right?”

          In regards to a specific number, is it 3 or is it 4, if you go back and listen to the interview, the reporter reads the second stanza and says it sounds like a couple of clues to her. f then says it sounds like 3 or 4 to him. She says something about home of Brown and f says you also need to know WWWH. She then reads lines 3 and 4 of the 3rd stanza and she again says it sounds like a couple of clues to her, f agrees saying it sounds like a couple of clues to him to.

          f specifically corrects her (this is extremely important) to indicate that there are more than a couple of clues in the 1st stanza (but still keeps it somewhat ambiguous; he knows, but why give it away if he doesn’t need to?) and seemingly agrees that there are two (a couple) clues in the 3rd and 4th lines of the 3rd stanza.

          So for me, f pretty much confirmed home of Brown; and then most interestingly, skipped over at least one clue, maybe, two, and went back to WWWH (is this the first clue because of his emphasis back to it? but they aren’t discussing the first stanza either…). So we effectively have the 1st line and the 4th line of the 2nd stanza as confirmed clues from f. If there are 3 clues in the stanza, what would the 3rd be? The straight forward answer would be the second line of the stanza — “take it in the canyon down” maybe even encompassing the 3rd line too (I see no reason that some of the clues cannot include multiple lines of the stanzas, but I also think that some clues are specific lines of the stanzas). If there are 4 clues, then “not far, but too far to walk.” would logically be the other clue. I personally see 3 as of right now: WWWH, canyon down, and hoB because they are specific and identifiable things, nf,btftw is not so much a logical, specific thing/clue, but more a distance reference.

          So, when I add up what f has said as to what specifically are the 9 clues, he has identified 6 or 7 clues specifically in the poem (I give little credence to what is referenced as other clues that he has given, they mostly just exclude things or locations that came about by people wanting more and f using the statements as fodder).

          Three of four clues in:
          Begin it where warm waters halt
          And take it in the canyon down,
          Not far, but too far to walk.
          Put in below the home of Brown.

          Two (couple) clues in:
          There’ll be no paddle up your creek,
          Just heavy loads and water high.

          And one clue in:
          If you’ve been wise and found the blaze,

          That leaves 2 or 3 more clues in the rest of the poem that we still need to identify and would seemingly confirm f saying that there are a few words in the poem that aren’t helpful in finding the chest.

          I will throw one last thing in (because I haven’t written enough :)) about how I see the clues working and how I am playing this, 3 clues to get one to a specific area within the general location of where the chest is located, 3 more clues to get you in the vicinity and very close to the chest, and 3 final clues to pinpoint you to the exact spot. Maybe this is not exact, but I bet that it is close.

          • I like your summary of the interview, and I too heard basically the same. My only argument, which is not actually an argument but more of a what if… are they actual “clues” or can some be hints. This has been my dilemma from the beginning, as fenn calls everything a clue… excluding hints in the book.

            I also like that you include the possibility that more than one “line” can be a clue… I can live with that. So now there is the age old question of, Why is there stanza 5 and 6 if they hold no clues? [ emphasis on an actual clue needed ].

            Don’t get me wrong, most of my thinking involves the same lines as everyone else… I’m just not seeing ‘just’ those lines as all that is needed. You also said the last three clues gets you close to the chest… can you elaborate on why not a pin point spot if you use all 9 clues?

          • let me clarify… you said not exact, but said prior pin point… so i’m a little confused to the difference.

          • In relation to clarification as to his statements possibly being hints or clues, in the interview, f specifically states that there are nine clues in the poem and the discussion then launches out from there about what are the number of clues in the different lines that the reporter reads from the poem; so I have to accept that what they talk about are the nine clues in the poem and nothing to do with what might be hints in the poem. With regard to what are hints and what are clues, I stick to f saying that all the information you need to find the chest is in the poem; I don’t feel a need to go looking for other things to understand what the clues are in the poem, but I do go looking for hints to help me understand what the clues mean. (the twofold challenge of the poem: what are the clues and what do the clues mean).

            When I said “that might not be exact”, I meant it to be that there might not be 3 clues in each of the gradations of getting closer to the chest (i.e. maybe there are only 2 clues that pinpoint you to the exact location and 4 clues that get you in the vicinity of the chest); if that helps clarify what I said.

            As far as portions of the poem potentially not being useful to solving the poem or being part of the nine clues, my thoughts have evolved over time. I see the poem as not only getting you to the chest, but also his general story and determination of doing it all wrapped up into the poetry. If he had not recovered from the cancer, no book would have been written. No book would have meant no subtle hints in the book to help with understanding the clues; so maybe his earlier rendition of the poem would have been more understandable and easier to figure out along with why he was doing what he did. But f got better, he wrote the book, and revised the poem to make it more challenging and reflective of what he was capable of doing, given he no longer was in a race against time. So the un-useful parts of the poem may just be legacy detail from his original plans.

          • Excellent JCM,

            I have always wondered if the original plan had been executed would there have been a book, or even time for one. I have also pondered how, if at all, would the poem been distributed or would it been by word of mouth. As we know part of the poem was changed from …take the chest and leave my bones…

            I don’t recall anyone asking that question… Would there had been a book to carry the poem in the original thought and planning of taking the chest with him?
            That question may had been ask prior to 2012 though and I don’t recall seeing it.

    • Pulling this out into a new thread because this appears (to me) to be a good counter argument to the idea that nine sentences does not equal nine clues.

      Q: Forrest, Did you intend for there to be 9 clues, or did it work out to be just right with 9?

      A: Nice thinking halo, I didn’t count the clues until the poem had been finalized. Although I changed it a few times over the months I think the number stayed about the same. f 6/29/14

      By this statement, it appears that nine does not matter. It’s an incidental metric. Nine clues only happened to be the case after the poem had been finalized. Therefore, how did it also happen to be the case that there were nine sentences? Coincidence that nine was repeated, or was nine not repeated?

      Discuss!

      (Not sure if anything is coming out of these discussions, but I wanted to thank people for participating. I, for one, am enjoying them. I’m not counting clues over here, I’m literally listening to the band Counting Crows.)

      • Jeremy P if you ever need to join forces I’d be happy to sign up! Like your approach. I tried googling ‘ice 9’ to see if anything came up, lol! I just want to keep it as simple as possible, find the correct WWWH and the rest should all into place, could be more than a short hike, maybe even a 50 – 90 mile drive from WWWH to the ‘put in’ but just don’t know yet….

        • Thanks, Cholly. From what I remember from Cat’s Cradle, Ice-9 would definitely halt warm waters 🙂

      • I’m in the 9 lines are the 9 clues camp. Probably nothing I can say can prove that this is the correct approach so I just try to follow the clues precisely as ff told us. So I might even try both approaches 9 lines vs 9 sentences and I feel I have better focus on the 9 lines as I essentially start my solve where it says Begin it and end where it says your quest to cease. I try not to over complicate it.

  13. In my opinion the first paragraph of the poem gives you a state and a town to begin your search. Www. Or halt.has double meaning once you figure out the state and town research it on computer. Then find out wwwh at and then research the next clue and so on and if everything fits with your location. Then go out and try your luck.

  14. ‘Hint of riches new and old’

    Maybe in your journey you cross between 2 borders…new could be New Mexico and old could be Colorado…

    WWWH could be a water station for a steam engine train…

    The Cumbres and Toltec train goes from Colorado to New mexico over each border a few times in the journey…Maybe you see the blaze while you take it in..

    IMO

    • Could it be that simple?

      We get on the train on the New Mexico side of the border with Colorado, sit on the left side, and look for the blaze as we chug along?

      Once found, we just have to go back and get it.

      Interesting idea.

      Not sure how Colorado is “Old” though. I get it being the home of Brown.

      Scott W.

      • hello. imo new and old could be referring to codes even tho ff said no codes but when i looked at the jefferson wheel cipher (lewis n clark) based of off the first letter of each chapter of ttotc .that is when i found the words (history told the) but this could be chance. i did not use the letters s,s and o,s because of what ff said in respect vidieo and also line a and line w did not play a part, this is from top to bottom. the first row of letter being row A . thx lee

    • Aw water stations, also known as: water stops…

      There are several water stops along that route (in both states).

  15. hello. the story of skippy landing the plane on the lake and then being unable to take off again. was that ff giving us the first clue. that he reviled on tv. that the tt was higher than 5000 ft.

  16. Not sure if this is a new thread here, but I don’t recall seeing anyone else put forth this concept/idea.

    Is it possible that Mr. Fenn hid the chest in the Rocky Mountians, but the Poem leads you to a map or directions to the chest? Is it possible that we’re supposed to find something much smaller in size first? There has already been a fair amount of discussion on how small a 10 x 10 x 5 inch chest is out there in the Rocky Mountians. But could the poem be directions to directions or a map to where the chest is?

    As I have considered from my armchair the enumerable places Indulgence could be, we all know it is only in one place. As I have considered many of the questions put forth to Mr. Fenn since the search was started, If (and it’s a big if, I know) he did set up a “double-search”, it seems to me, all his responses to those questions could all still be true and the true nature of the search still be “hidden” from us all.

    I’m not trying to upset the apple cart here, I just wonder if anyone knows if Forrest might have done something like this? And if he would/could do this – might he? Is this what he might mean when he has told us all to read and re-read the poem?

    This is pure speculation on my part, but I am wondering what some of your opinions on this might be.

    • hello. that is interesting idea.but im not sure that this idea would go along with.the person who is sure of the location there path will be direct. imo. but i also believe that the clues in poem are not the words that you can just read. example scrambled words. and i dont think that is a cipher or a code thx lee. in ohio

    • @swwot re additional directions at site of TC. He has stated that he made two trips from his car in one afternoon on the date and place where he hid the chest, I have to stick with facts and not read to much more into this, but good idea! lol, IMO.

      • Cholly, (and others)

        I fully understand all that Mr. Fenn did to hide Indulgence, as well as everything that he has answered about the hiding of the chest. Like I said in my initial posit, everything that I recall about his answers to questions posed by searchers can all stand with this new twist on things. Hear me all, very clearly, I do not know, nor am I certain that this is a possibility, I am just wondering out loud to the rest of the gang if this is a real possibility or not.

        My wonderment on this point is concerning the possibility of the Poem being an “indirect” map to the treasure chest by way of finding more instructions as to where Indulgence is setting.

        Here’s why I am asking: If Forrest hid a small wax covered jar or tin, it might be in some sort of crevice that can only be blindly “reached into” to recover. (No place for the meek). This also could explain why Forrest has said that the person who finds Indulgence will walk up to it with confidence (or something to that effect).

        IMO, it seems that after 6 summers of searching, that if the Poem led to the treasure it should have been found by now. And for Mr. Fenn to say that at least one person has been within 200 feet of Indulgence, and more likely several have been, it seems that we’re all missing something. What is it that so many of us could have overlooked?

        In my mind, I can see Mr. Fenn hiding Indulgence in one place that “normal” folks commonly go within 200 feet of, and having the poem lead us to the place where the directions or map lead us to where Indulgence is now resting. I think the term that can be used if this is the case, is that they can be “mutually exclusive”. Where Indulgence is hidden may not be where the end of the poem takes the searcher.

        Some of you out there have more knowledge of Mr. Fenn – would he do something like this to keep us from finding Indulgence so easily?

        • If that were the case it could be located below 5000 feet outside the search area. So No

        • swott – f has made a number of statements over the years that would indicate that the chest is sitting at the end of the nine clues. I will throw this one out from the book:

          “So I wrote a poem containing nine clues that if followed precisely, will lead to the end of my rainbow and the treasure:”

          I would say that your posit is possible, but I would be extremely doubtful of it.

  17. hello. i think that every line holds at least 1 hint or clue. example. if noun,s were a clue.you would have all those words. to me this seem,s logical. and it works with ff saying that he placed the letters in one at a time.

  18. Several years ago I formed the Geezer Team to hunt for the Fenn treasure, thinking four old heads are better than one. OK, no jokes out there! We’re aged 72, 71, 68, and 65! We have hired someone to do the difficult hiking for us, after seeing his ad in the paper “Have legs, will travel.”

    Here’s our latest thoughts.

    We believe Stanza 1 has 1 clue, stanza 2 has 3 clues, stanza 3 has 2 clues, stanza 4 has 1 clue, stanza 5 has no clues, and stanza 6 has 2 clues.
    The first clue is “As I have gone alone in there,” is in stanza 1 but, since it describes a minimal size for the hiding place, it is not needed until later,
    Stanza 3 has the idiom-like phrase “There’ll be no paddle up your creek,” that we’ve discussed elsewhere. It is clear to us that there aren’t any more idioms or idiom-like phrases in the poem. If someone can point them out we’d be happy to analyze them for the benefit of all.

    In our analysis of the poem we envisioned three segments A-B, B-C, and C-D.

    Segment A-B is BIWWWH to PIBTHOB with start and end points deduced from Stanzas 1 and 2 and maps.

    Segment B-C is PIBTHOB to LQDYQTC, with the end point C close to being determined but still undetermined and which will require additional field work and deductions from Stanzas 3 and 4.

    Segment C-D is LQDYQTC to IYABAITW, with start and end points C and D undetermined at this time which will require field work and deductions from stanzas 4 and 6.

    We believe that the key word is “blaze.” We applied our analytical engine to the poem and to what we believed are key items found in the book, TTOTC, and came up with these deductions.

    DED. #1. It is highly unlikely that the perfect hiding place would also have just the right, natural blaze i.e., marker.

    DED. #2. Ergo, Fenn must have brought the blaze with him and carried it in on trip 1 or 2 and put it in place.

    DED. #3. Ergo, the blaze must be … yet …. Yes, we do have solid conjectures. But hey, yous guys have to have some fun! Fill in the blanks!
    Further:

    DED. #4 Given DED. #3 and his experiences as described in TTOTC, our logic engine deduced that the blaze is …. Yes again, but like I said, yous guys have to have some fun!

    • think this should be in the “blaze” section, but, I have something that must also result in some reference to a “marvel gaze”. Again, Andrew Marvell. 97 stanzas, Upon Appleton House. It’s the marker you use like a sundial to direct you to the coordinates.IMO.

  19. Here are what I believe are the 9 clues:
    1) Begin it where warm waters halt.
    2) And take it in the canyon down.
    3) Not far, but too far to walk.
    4) Put in below the home of Brown.
    5) From there it’s no place for the meek.
    6) The end is drawing ever nigh.
    7) There’ll be no paddle up your creek.
    8) Just heavy loads and water high.
    9) If you’ve been wise and found the blaze,
    Look quickly down, your quest to cease

    • Ya know on that number 9 he uses the words bee and eye which to me means look close to the ground as bees pollenate flowers close to the ground. But the word found can mean equipped as in with a flashlight as he said and of course a sandwitch too.

      found1
      found/
      1.
      past and past participle of find.
      adjective
      adjective: found
      1.
      having been discovered by chance or unexpectedly, in particular.
      (of an object or sound) collected in its natural state and presented in a new context as part of a work of art or piece of music.
      “collages of found photos”
      (of art) comprising or making use of found objects.
      (of poetry) formed by reinterpreting metrically the structure of a nonpoetic text.
      2.
      (of a ship) equipped; supplied.
      “the ship was two years old, well found and seaworthy”

  20. Treasure bold=montana (treasure state) begin wwwh. Warm springs montana .take it in the canyon down not far but to far too walk.30 min drive south to walkerville Montana .just a opinion. Something I noticed why reading the poem was the lack of color only brown and gold.

    • Steve, the smart ones here know it’s got to be in Montana! LOL
      But don’t tarry in Warm Springs. It’s home to Montanas state mental hospital – could be where warm sane days outside the padded walls halt.

      • Lol. Honestly this poem can fit anywhere you want it to .like the chest is anywhere you want it to be.

        • 😉 Wolf, I like your solution a lot because Butte has the only (#42) Molybdenum mine in America and used to house a beautiful old picket fence amusement park “so high up in the mountains” (insert Bobby Goldsboro song) until it was swallowed by “the pit.” My parents took us to ride their coaster on the last day before it became mining tailings. Butte is a bluff -geographically and in poker jargon.
          Over and out for a few days of needed rest.

          • Anna the more you talk the more I learn. I was unaware of the poker bluff and Butte connection. It fits very well!

            However if you read my Red River search you will realize that the is a Molybdenum mine at Questa (Quest to cease). I remember Mr. Fenn liking something about that story, maybe it is the 42/Molly connection. Never was a Molly Brown fan, but when you take the molly the metal into consideration, it does make it interesting.

          • Oops…sorry Wolf, I meant the only Molyb mine in MT. As a child my mom played that old Bobby Goldsboro song about Butte Montana…where the air is fresh and clean. Even at 7 yrs old I knew the guy had never been to butte – where the impure air from smelting killed many people. Not sure if he was making a social statement or totally ignorant.

  21. I’ve only been here for 3 days and realize this chase is consuming me and then I realized there is so much more going on. Peace out! This chase is not for me I will not be returning I know my limits. I suffer from obsessively compulsory disorder….peace…

    http://youtu.be/6cb5KXSYFxM

    • Steve, your ideas on the 13 lives taken in the 1949 Mann Gulch fire would be the footings if an excellent solve. Are you from that area of Montana?

        • Steve, not far than from Liverpool Ohio and the point of beginning. And also Toledo Ohio where the Battle of fallen timbers and land / peace treatys. Ohio is cool in its own way , but I agree that the majesty of Montana can not be undersold.

          • The Wolf, nice to hear from you. No I did not read that story before, but I have read some of your other posts and I can say I am a fan. You think outside the box like me. Always very insightful. Great material, thanks for the link!
            I am somewhat of a surveyor at heart from my Dad. He taught me as a young kid, he was a general contractor, retired now.
            Wolf did you know that Beaverhead Rock (Sacajawea) was to be the point of beginning in Montana. The surveyors changed it to limestone hill.
            Also Forrest says his most important item he owns is sitting bulls pipe.

            Wolf you got me so excited because you are on the right trail, I started to reveal my solve and then backspace.

          • Paul, lol
            What a nice coincidence. You should read the rest of my blog posts about how Toledo is solved and it might get even more excited. You might even reveal a little more. Good luck I hope it helps…

            I did not know about Beayerhead, but did you know that Beaver Head area looks just like Italy (30,000 foot view) and we all know how much Mr Fenn loves Italy. Won’t mention the deep hole association…

          • My pleasure Paul. If I recall correctly the clue was “more than 300 miles west of Toledo and not in Nevada” there is a home run type connection to Nevada included in my post and there was also another so called “non-clue” that also “not in Eastern Saskatchewan” that IMO knocks it out of the park.

  22. all,

    Found this to be funny so i would pass it on:

    While using my WWWH theory of the CD, i began WWWH at Targhee pass on the Idaho / Montana border and took Hwy 20 down towards west Yellowstone (ironically 10 miles according to road sign) to the south fork of the Madison river and was following it up along forest road 478 when i came along this:

    44.626269, -111.162985

    I wonder if that is ff coming to check on his treasure?

    Happy New year all.

    Seannm

    • Seannm, that is an amazing picture. Did you go there in person and look around for the TC?

    • LOL Seannm, now anyone in the West Yellowstone area will scramble to that spot to look around. I know I would if I was in the area.

      • It did cause me to do a little research on the Yellowstone Branch line of the Union Pacific that was run from 1908 til 1979. Interesting history there and I’m sure ff had heard the train and maybe seen it while he was there as a child.

        Seannm

  23. Anyone else find it curious that FF read only 1 section of the TFTW book out loud? He says all you need is the poem and TTOTC to solve… But then reads this one section. Maybe a clue? Or hint? IDK. It’s been awhile. Any thoughts?

    • I’m truly really never going to find this, so in all honestly I think… Well, (IMO ahem). Baker’s Hole. With multiple pie references in the TTOTC book. And FF reading it out loud in the TFTW book that Baker’s hole is too far for him to walk. That Baker’s hole = too far to walk. Also Mt. Hebgen (no fish anywhere) and Red canyon were a thought and trip. That led to empty hands. So maybe good luck who knows. It’s a secret.

      • Very interesting, JohnR. I think Dal has covered every inch of it; however I am curious– what do you consider being the boundary of Baker’s Hole? Is it at the bank of the river.. several feet on either side.. or the entire campground?

        Basically, what is the whole hole?

          • Hi Muset,
            I agree. Dal and I’m sure several (lol) others have been up and down this area more than a few times. Maybe this year he’ll get that T-shirt biz going. 🙂 Very nice share with the map! It reminds me of the great Green River solve. In regards to the “breadth of Baker’s Hole”, that word “precisely” comes to mind and it is so… well you know.

  24. This is a small thought, out of my journal of memories, treasure hunting 2014…
    “As i parked my car and got out, i found myself facing the sunlight and the mountains. I knew why the local fishermen called this “glen”, the Sunshine Pool. Where ever I looked the mountains fronted me, with their splendid green slopes reaching up to their bald caps of gray shale and reddish rock and gleaming summits of snow.
    Into this “pool”–this pocket in the mountains–the sun descended in a wonderful flood. It stirred my blood like tonic. The lazy river took its time as it meandered through the small valley, content at being warmed by the sun. The azure sky was cloudless and a soft warm wind tickled my cheek.

    Deer, squirrels, chipmunks and birds played in and out of the sun’s rays amid the pine and aspen trees bordering the glen. Flowers of all colors flourished here, untrampled, lifting their petals toward the glorious sun. I saw trout, lazily swimming and a huge beaver looking at me. He dipped under the water but didn’t slap his tail, being unconcerned at my presence.

    The pass, just below the golden sunshine, tilted just right allowing the sun warmed water to pick up speed, bumping over the rocks trying to halt its progress, and gurgling happily, as it cooled quickly and made it’s way into the canyon. Even if I couldn’t find the treasure here, I felt it was a piece of Heaven, a treasure in it’s self!”

    Now, you see why I am so adamant about how warm waters HALT. I witnessed this live river give up it’s comfortable warmth to a greater foe…gravity. I won’t say where this is, I feel I found my “Church” like Forrest found his.

    Good luck all!
    ¥Peace ¥

  25. On January 3, 2016 at 10:05 pm
    Ernest_H said:
    Here are what I believe are the 9 clues:

    1) Begin it where warm waters halt.
    2) And take it in the canyon down.
    3) Not far, but too far to walk.
    4) Put in below the home of Brown.
    5) From there it’s no place for the meek.
    6) The end is drawing ever nigh.
    7) There’ll be no paddle up your creek.
    8) Just heavy loads and water high.
    9) If you’ve been wise and found the blaze,
    Look quickly down, your quest to cease
     
    Ernest_H, consider these observation regarding your clue list. 3) is highly subjective and since 4) tells where to end that part of the journey 3) is not needed as a clue.

    5) tells us that it will be rough going from this point on. But so does 7) plus 7) also tells us we’ll be going up a non-navigable creek. So, we should keep 7) and toss 5) as a clue.

    6) is informative but even at that it isn’t useful since we presume that to be the case anyhow.

    If you agree with our observations so far, you now only have six clues and need three more. Good! We believe The first clue is stanzas1 line 1 “As I have done alone in there,”. This clue isn’t needed until later because it describes the minimum size of the hiding place, which is very important. This doesn’t change Fenn’s claim that the poem is in chronological order.

    In stanza 6 Fenn makes an important announcement that should be paid attention to: “Listen all and listen good,” which basically means listen up all you feather merchants (kidding), here’s something important. We believe that the something important is first “Your effort will be worth the cold.” which is a clue about the hiding place, and second “If you are brave and in the wood” is also a clue about the hiding place.

    Dennis – Geezer Team Member

    • IMO

      It seems to me that you have discounted a substantially large portion of the poem. I am not in agreement with your assessment.

      Scott W.

    • Read the poem. Then read it again. The second time you should read it out loud and listen. You learned that you should listen after the first reading.

      Don’t forget the first stanza either. There is something in each stanza. No pats on the back or contemplating dialogue; just the clues.

      Scott W

  26. I’m on Ernest’ team. I agree with his 9 clues!
    3) gives distance you travel in canyon, so Def NOT subjective!
    5) also can mean… throw out your qualms and law abiding notions, gotta be a maverick now…keep 5.
    6) nigh/left, Def a directional clue!
    ☆effort worth cold= gold
    ☆brave and in the wood= opened wood lined chest, touched the cold gold and that makes it yours.
    I feel those two are statements wrapping it up/summary, of what you get if you figure it all out.
    So, 3-5-6 stay in my book!
    All my opinion!

  27. As has been mentioned, if you haven’t, I recommend separating the poem out in to its 9 sentences. I’m not saying each sentence is a clue, but it makes the poem a little different. More of a narrative. I think it can help in subtle ways.

  28. Although I am fairly new to the chase, I would like to put my two cents in. IMO, here are my nine clued:

    1) Begin it where warm waters halt And take it in the canyon down.
    2) Not far, but two far to walk.
    3) Put in below the home of Brown.
    4) From there it’s no place for the meek,
    5) The end is drawing ever nigh;
    6) There’ll be no paddle up your creek, Just heavy loads and water high.
    7) If you’ve been wise and found the blaze,
    8) Look quickly down, your quest to cease, But tarry scant with marvel gaze, Just take the chest and go in peace.
    9) So hear me all and listen good, Your effort will be worth the cold, If you are brave and in the wood I give you title to the gold.

    To me, the first stanza is just an intro. “In There” has meaning, but only after you complete the puzzle. Circular architecture: Start – end – start again.

    1) Because there is no punctuation at the end of WWWH, I combine it with the next sentence… And take it in the canyon down.
    2) This line tells me how far to follow the canyon down from WWWH.
    3)This line tells me how far to go down the canyon.
    4) Look for something that the meek would shy away from.
    5) Do not goo far part the point where the meek fear to go.
    6) Can’t say too much here, without divulging why it is important.
    7) Wise – Blaze – usual interpretations
    8) What to do once you have found the blaze.
    9) IMO this stanza puts the bow around the prettily wrapped package.

    I know that my list is somewhat different than many that I have read, but for my solve, it works.

    I look forward to comments and/or discussion.

    • Just one comment JD. ok, more a question… I do like the use of most of the poem in your idea of what a clue is… But I have been thinking about one thing… the starting point. We have been told ‘ need to know where to start ‘ and ‘clue one is important’. What would you say to the possibility ~ clue one may not be the starting point, is it possible that we misread the poem as the starting point and clue one are one in the same?

      Maybe the starting point is not a clue at all, but simply the place to find the 9 clues. With that said, could any part of the poem now be the starting point? to which we now follow the clues in order… maybe stanza 5 that most seem to simply skip over. “Important possibility”, Searchers “didn’t understand the significance of where they were” Yeah I know you’re over thinking Seeker…

      • Seeker, in my solve your over thinking actually fits. I’d call it a preclue to find where the 1st clue in the Poem is (WWWH). I found my “preclue” in TTOTC, will explain later in May when I post my solve.

    • I am new here, but thought i would throw in my 2 cents.

      These are my 9 clues and some thoughts about them.

      In general, I think the clues refer to something very specific, as well as having multiple meanings (i.e. HOB refers to something specific, as well as home of brown trout.)

      All just my opinion.

      Clue 1:
      I can keep my secret where,
      And hint of riches new and old.

      It’s a question with a hint to the answer. (new and old)

      Clue 2:
      Begin it where warm waters halt
      And take it in the canyon down,

      Tells you specifically where to start and which way to go.

      Clue 3:
      Not far, but too far to walk.
      Put in below the home of Brown.

      Tells you how far to go, and where to start on the river. I think its a very specific spot. Not just the home of the brown trout. (maybe the other brown trout)

      Clue 4:
      From there it’s no place for the meek,

      I think this is something very unique(as i do all the clues). Not just fast water or that its hard.

      Clue 5:
      The end is drawing ever nigh;

      Clue 6:
      There’ll be no paddle up your creek,
      Just heavy loads and water high.

      Nobody is going to paddle up the creek (your creek) to where you are.
      Heavy load and water high is something unique to this spot. Not just big rocks and high water.

      Clue 7:
      If you’ve been wise and found the blaze,

      Clue 8:
      Look quickly down, your quest to cease

      Clue 9:
      But tarry scant with marvel gaze,
      Just take the chest and go in peace.

    • JD, I once read somewhere that someone asked FF where HoB was and he said something to the effect that if he told where HoB was the person would go straight to the TC. In your solve, would this be true if you told us where and what your HoB is? I’m not asking for you to reveal your HoB, just food for thought and I wish I knew where I had heard that so I could provide a link. Any solves I find I try to put this into any possible HoB’s, it has helped me discard several possible solves.

      • -Book-

        I have been looking for that video myself as I’ve been thinking about my solution. I think it was in a bookstore video, if I recall correctly. Perhaps Loco could help with this. /^\ evidently the treasure is located below Browns home.

        • Actually that quote is from an interview , with a pretty lady reporter in Forrests den surrounded by his artifacts. As I recall , she went on a search or two also . Sorry don’t have the exact link but I believe it’s on YouTube, maybe by his niece or daughter?

        • Most of the videos that Forrest has appeared in are located here on the blog’s media pages. If you have not visited that section you should. In addition to video interviews there are also radio interviews and printed interviews,

          Go to the right side of the blog. Near the top. Orange text. Most important Info.
          Scroll down the list of posts to Media Coverage. There are dozens of interviews with Forrest there…Research!!!

          • Dal & Goofy, can I drop off a stack of religious tracts – I heard you needed new wallpaper. (Just kidding.)

            Actually wanted to thank you both for such an outstanding one stop Blog. I have no idea how you continue to add and organize the excellent resources. I regularly sharpen up on media, older SB’s etc.

            Truly appreciate how well oiled this blog is and your expertise to make it so, – anna

      • JD, I found where I read the statement from FF, problem is it’s from another searcher quoting FF but does not give a link to the quote. Here’s where that searchers quote is at:

        http://dalneitzel.com/2014/07/14/home-of-brown/

        July 15, 2014 at 2:12 am

        “Carolyn, I said “no comment” refering to HOB. Never said Id never comment on not commenting about the comment for HOB.
        Is HOB a thing? “In a word–yes.” F. “If I told you what it was, you would walk right to the treasure!” F
        There, I commented.”

        Hope that helps clarify my earlier post above.

        • Bookworm,

          …..hmmm, late to the party, as usual 🙂

          You’re correct in that ‘Donna McChesney’ included (…..in her reply to Carolyn) : Is HOB a thing? “In a word–yes.” F. “If I told you what it was, you would walk right to the treasure!” F

          Not to say that I didn’t miss it, but I don’t recall Fenn making that statement and I do not have it in my file for remarks concerning HOB…..

          I am pretty sure is NOT here:
          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ipvIGaVt7C8
          {he did make use of similar terminology here:

          MW – – Question posted 5/28/2014
          http://mysteriouswritings.com/questions-with-forrest/questions-with-fenn-archive-1/

          Is the Blaze one single object? ~ Scout Around
          “In a word – Yes.” F ]

          So, ‘Donna’ if you or anyone has a link to where Fenn made that remark, please provide. I’m sure everyone would be extremely appreciative.

      • JD,

        I too remember ff making that comment and i believe it was in:

        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ipvIGaVt7C8

        Time stamp: 10:57

        I believe and have stated here in the blog several times that the HOB is the resting place of Indulgence (TC).

        Home=resting place

        Brown=treasure chest

        So as ff says in the above video if he told you what the HOB was you would go right to the chest. This too will also help to confirm that several people have gotten the first two clues correct but went right past the TC (some as close as 200ft). Meaning if you got WWWH correct and the canyon down correct you could have easily went farther than too far to walk looking for a Brown house.

        I reason that Brown since it is capitalized is very important and what is it that we are all searching for ? the TC and the thrill of the chase of course.

        If you go back in MW Blog there Forrest responds to a woman’s questions and explains why he chose to purchase the Clovis Cache. If you read his explanation it doesn’t take a genius to figure out how i came to this conclusion.

        All of course in my humble opinion.

        Seannm

        • Seannm, thank you for finding it. I knew I had heard FF say it somewhere sometime but couldn’t remember where.

          • BW,

            No problem, its one of my favorite video’s. ff says a lot in this interview about why he chose the location.

            Seannm

        • Sean- I have an outlook on the Capital B for Brown. Since Brown is the only thing capitalized int he poem unanimously, other than the I’s and Beginning of each line, it may be just the Capitalization of Brown that you need to look into. Like anything that is related to capitals. Not the letter, but cities and places that are known for certain things around the globe. D.C. is the capital of America. Santa Fe is the capital of New Mexico, etc. Everything has something that stands out, but probably goes unnoticed. Sorta like Everything that happens in Illinois is most likely ran through Chicago, yet the Capital is Springfield a 00 miles away. Stuff like that is how i relate to HoB things. Capitals. If Brown was not Capitalized and Leave was, you would have a different thought of things, but Brown is easy because it is universal for pretty much anything, and if you capitalize it, it means even more. It is just Forrest playing with words, and turning them into his favorite pictures.

  29. Well if there are more than 1 (several/few) HoB’s, then he might have meant that if he told you each one of them, then you could go directly to the spot. Not using that 1 HoB is a physical place, but more of a description of what HoB means to Forrest. I can only imagine how many Home of Browns there really are. if there is only 1, then the chest should have been found, especially if millions of hits are going through this website each year. There are many different types of thinkers that come though here. The more people that become passionate about this chase, the better chance of it being found.

    • @Hammertime,

      IMO TTOTC (a Brown book) refers to Brown several times and in each and every time Brown is refereed to as a color to describe a bag, stain and gravy. Therefore i concluded that Brown is in reference to a color a color which ff himself describes as what happens to copper over time (reference the clovis cache find again).

      I believe that by capitalizing Brown he was able to send searchers down a rabbit hole of numerous possibilities of the meaning of Brown, which mine too could be one of those.

      To me his statement in the video that i referenced above somewhat leads credibility to my theory that HOB could possibly refer to the resting place of the chest.

      As there are several places in the Rocky Mountains where warms waters halts, there can be only one HOB. Remember the poem says “Put in below the home of Brown.” and “put in” to me is the key not necessarily HOB in my solve, because it describes the change in direction from the canyon down.

      All of course in my humble opinion.

      Seannm

  30. In answer, yes, were I to say exactly where or what my hoB was, most logical thinking searchers would probably “get to where I got”.

  31. Sean – Thanks for the video link. Sorry, I can not agree with you that Indulgence is at the hoB. In my solve it is a few miles away. Interesting thought though.

    • Sean – I was thinking that same thing, but she asked who brown was (not where HOB was). If she asked where HOB was, I think you would be right on. Since she asked who, it would not have given away the location if he would have said Brown = TC.

      • Mr Mike,

        Valid point, however my research about Brown and it relationship with the poem and subtle hints in the book I am of the opinion that the HOB is the resting place of the chest.

        Also ff may have not listened to her words correctly and spurted that out (not likely but possible).

        Seannm

        • Maybe that is why the line “If you’ve been wise and found the blaze” is part tense. You saw the blaze (where the HoB is) on you’re way down the canyon, but had to put in below it.

  32. After reading the posts in the “Nine Clues” Archives, I saw couple of posts about the importance of the punctuation regarding the poem in the book and the importance of the poem not having a title.

    1- Could the reason why the poem does not have a title in the book be because the poem is not written in the correct order? Meaning the stanza 1 is not actually where the poem starts?

    2- The punctuation just before the poem in the book is a colon (:). Why is this? Is this important?

    • @UA, interesting observation and question. There is an interview where it sounds as if he says the title is called The Thrill of the Chase, so maybe the book, his memoirs titled TTOTC and the poem are all together the same….I’m wondering if a person could find the TC without putting in below the home of Brown if they had all clues solved correctly up to that point…..how critical is hoB? Could hoB be a decoy?

      • F said on Mysterious Writings…
        Q. What is/where is the hob?
        A. If I told you that, you’d walk right to the treasure…f
        So, YES, HOB is important.
        Not my opinion, but F’s fact!

  33. Good point! SO, How can searchers get 4 (maybe) clues correct and not be close enough to hoB to wrap it up if hoB is that much of a factor…..What’s the problem…..maddening!!! lol, IMO…

    • maybe they know where the home of brown is but not what that place means, so off they go. could be there’s a place and meaning wrapped in 1. imo. idk.

    • You would think four clues could get you there, but they are only half the clues. Many options in the field I suppose that could you take you off track given that five clues still remain. Maddening, you got that right! Keep on keeping on………
      IMHO
      Friend

  34. Yesterday, Seannm wrote …

    “So as ff says in the above video if he told you what the HOB was you would go right to the chest.”
    ——————————————————————————————–

    Great!

    We don’t need any clues that might follow, in the poem. Actually, we don’t need the poem at all. According to ff himself, all we need to know is where the HOB is.

    This apparent contradiction about HOB, as one clue among nine, doesn’t seem to bother searchers at all. They’re not questioning it. They just go right on searchin’ …

    If the reader is at all interested in what I have just said, the reader might want to email ff for an … explanation? To me an explanation is warranted. But based on past experience, I doubt if anyone else here sees it as important. So disregard my comment here (as usual), change the subject, and keep right on searchin’ …

    Ken 🙂

    • Ken

      Good reply and deep thinking. FF did say in another post response, can you make a cake without ALL the ingredients? Answer, “NO”. In another someone asked, “which clue is most important”? Answer, one…the last one. etc. So I agree with you a searcher has to solve all the clues not just the one discussed above. If you miss a clue you may go the wrong direction and missing the t/c by a few feet means not finding it. The mountains are HUGE when you are out in them. Finding a 10″ chest is practically impossible unless you have a good idea exactly where you need to go look. (IMO)

      JC

    • Ken,

      In many Q&A’s, Interviews and comments Fenn has Indicated WWWH as clue… many wwh in the RM’s comment, The blaze as a clue… searcher driving down the road looking for the blaze because it’s a clue comment, even water high as a clue… throw my bike in water high comments. Even hinted at scant might be a clues in a Q&A’s… Scant meaning few and talking in circles. etc.

      I could put all those quotes up be I know you seen them before, so I’ll just keep it short. so that indicates maybe three or more clues past hoB line in the poem. I see what you are saying about the ” contradiction ” Yet I would say you might be taking the comment to literally. I personally see this as fenn saying; if I told you any answer to any clue you could go right to the chest.

      The other possibility is if one should know hoB, the remaining clues are involved with the knowing of hoB has a clue… this doesn’t eliminate the necessity of the remaining clues, It just might say all the other may be connected to and without the knowledge of hoB those clues are useless.
      “Contiguous”: sharing, touching, adjoining, adjacent, abutting, beside, meeting…
      So what some may see stanza 3 as, traveling certain distance from one point to the next… maybe hoB is “the” place for all those remaining clues. I don’t see contradiction as much as misreading.

    • I agree knowing HOB will lead you to the blaze, but you still have to figure out the rest of the poem to go directly to the chest.

    • I think knowing the hob makes identifying the clues that follow it pretty easy. That is my take from what ff said.

      • That was my take also, but not so simple as everything just falls into place.. What makes HOB so difficult to locate if you know where to start? You would think there are some who know what HOB is yet no one has solved the poem yet at least anyone who has revealed they have the TC. As Seeker is saying which is a logical approach is why after all this time no one has discovered the TC? Could it be because the search community as a whole is approaching everything wrong or has someone already discovered the secret and chose not to disclose that they have the chest? Just food for thought IMO
        jl

        • I do not remember what ff said regarding the number of clues solved so far. Maybe hob is not one of them and still needs to be solved. I always thought ‘B’ (capital) would make it easier to solve but maybe not so.

          • My interpretation from comments are that some may know 3 maybe 4 clues but not certain. That in it’s self does not say that anyone has solved HOB, depending on the right order of clues and which ones that might have been solved. So another dead end IMO.
            jl

    • Ken – I for one am not appreciating your suppositions: “doesn’t seem to bother searchers at all”, “They’re not questioning it.”. “They just go right on searchin'”, and “I doubt if anyone else sees it here as important.” Maybe you ought to focus on your own ideas instead of deciding you know what the rest of us are thinking.

      Dal, can you set up a separate page for the “I’m smarter than the rest of you” comments such as this?

      • I wouldn’t let anything he has to say bother me. IMO he won’t find the chest believing HOB is the only important clue.

      • Spoon-
        I would but I am too busy not knowing what I’m doing and just searching anyway..Because it’s Fun!

      • Spoon … By zeroing in on me, you seem to be trying to divert attention away from the apparent contradiction between the nine clues and FF’s statement that all you need to know is HOB.

        Searchers can rationalize the contradiction all they want … “we should not take his spoken word so literally”, “his comment was just an off-the-cuff remark”, “the interviewer didn’t give him a chance to respond properly”, and so on. But contradiction it remains.

        If a searcher spends lots of money in field expenses (and some searchers have spent bunches of money), then the searcher deserves to have a set of clues that are at least internally consistent.

        I certainly do not “know it all”. I also think FF is honest and that the chest is out there somewhere. But it is not encouraging to read searcher responses that are dismissive of contradictions by the host.

        In your above post, you blame the messenger rather than the contradiction the messenger points out.

        Ken

        • Agreed, FF has given multiple contradictions. Maybe he’s just trying to discourage searchers…

        • Ken,

          Why do you believe searchers ” deserve ” anything?

          “If a searcher spends lots of money in field expenses (and some searchers have spent bunches of money), then the searcher deserves to have a set of clues that are at least internally consistent.”

          Why is it ff responsibility to control or even help those who can’t control themselves. No one is twisting arms forcing them to make numerous expensive trips, mortgage their homes, borrow money from grandma…
          The poem has given everyone the same possibility / opportunity of solving and recovering the chest.

          If a person/searcher can’t keep their priorities straight… who is the actual responsible party?

        • Ken – what I’m blaming you for is your condescending remarks. You noticed an apparent contradiction in Fenn’s words. That’s great. It doesn’t mean the rest of us didn’t notice it (and others), nor does it mean that your take on it is necessarily correct. You really don’t need to insult the rest of us to get your point across. There is perhaps a bit more going on in our tiny little brains than what you think.

    • Ken…The only thing I take as apparent from ff’s statement is that, “Put in below the home of Brown”, IS a clue…Albeit a good one I’ll wager.. 🙂

      • @samsmith et al, and the ‘put in’ is below a location that had been ‘to far to walk’ from the previous canyon down, where water that had been warm has suddenly stopped being warm or being water or something, (where do warm waters begin)….and, he made two trips from his vehicle to the TC spot.

        Several searches have been very close to the TC spot, several clues have been mentioned correctly, several searchers walked right on past remaining clues after solving the first ones. Is the location of the parked vehicle, wwwh, hoB all in spitting distance? The million dollar question! I think this blog really helps stir the imagination and the sharing here is great. IMO

    • In the video… if he told you what the HOB was you would go right to the chest.”

      IMO people may be taking this a bit to literal , Forrest was responding to a reporter asking something he could not give her a direct answer to, so laughing he said you would go right to the chest. I dont think he meant for the comment to be taken serious.

      • @lisa, good point. I often wondered if the same knee jerk response was given when he said ‘don’t mess with my poem’ the idea that he was on the spot and didn’t want to answer that question….I’ve never mentioned this on here as I didn’t want to stir the pot or get nuked for insinuating any untruths, etc! That said, I like the order of the clues the way I currently see them and don’t see any need to put stanza ‘x’ before stanza ‘y’ but, some interview/responses should be taken with a grain of gold, IMO. Sorry for blowing up on here this morning, I’ll shut up and go get a power ball ticket, better odds! lol

        • Cholly-
          I don’t think he was “on the spot” or didn’t have time to think when he responded “Don’t mess with my poem.” That response was in an email…not off the cuff during an interview.

          • Thanks Dal,I’m sure I heard it in the book store interview? I remember because everyone laughed, thought it was the Collected Works gathering, I’ll watch and search again.

      • Lisa, I agree that the answer Forrest gave to the reporter was an off-the-cuff remark and that he didn’t have enough time to formulate a different response. Not everything Forrest says is meant to be taken literally. Forrest doesn’t lie, but he’s very good about answering questions in such a way as to leave them open to many interpretations. Just because he didn’t say who Brown was doesn’t mean that Brown refers to a person and HOB refers to a house or place someone stayed. He doesn’t always correct interviewers when they say something that he has never said, like when they talk about his “buried” treasure. Sometimes he corrects them, but not always. He probably could have said that he never said Brown referred to a person but he was caught off guard by the question so I think he said the first thing that came to mind. All IMO! 🙂

    • Ken,

      Perhaps the hoB is bigger than a push-pin on the map. Maybe we need to zoom out and look at the bigger picture.

      IMO, it is possible that once the hoB is known it should be fairly easy to follow and solve the rest of the clues, as the heavy lifting occurs prior to the hoB and knowing the hoB is the confirmation to the previous clues.

      The contradiction you mention is what leads me to this possible conclusion.

      Think back to proofs is geometry class. You start with your “givens” and then translate them into useful information (knowledge). It gets easier as you go. Knowing where to start is the key to the proof, but having someone fill in the middle for you allows you to solve it much more easily.

      Scott W

  35. There has been discussion surrounding the idea of multiple meanings of the poem/clues, about layers or dimensions so I throw this quote out there:

    “What could be more potent than a form that bridges the world of the senses, links spatio-temporal dimensions, and joins the two; a form that acts as mediator between felt experience and cognitive appreciation-and what could be more human?” – John Forrest

    • Uken2it,
      I am sure you just exceeded my cognitive abilities, are you suggesting that a psychic might be of help in solving the clues?
      jl

      • JL,
        No psychic intended. I have not put this to test but use it to open myself to new perspectives that may be of some help. An example of this might be pinyon nuts. They appeal to the senses, e.g. smell taste texture. They have locations where they thrive and seasons when they bear their fruit.

        Just an example that is not intended to point to the poem in any helpful way but including these parameters in my thinking might turn a light bulb on in my minds eye.

        A separate but added thought on wwwh. Warm water can be seen in colors that are cool such as green, blue or purple. Might a warm spring or creek running into a Blue River be another way to look at wwwh?

        • Interesting and may be applicable, perspective can as personal or impersonal as we choose to make it. And different for everyone.
          jl

          • Did you know:

            Who:” the best candidate for shaking down piñon nuts is a child between the ages of eight and twelve”? Bring a child along…. A small child can reach them with a little help.
            When: August-September is considered best tine to harvest.
            How: ‘Picnic’ lunch, old clothes, sheets, burlaps sacks a stick for thrashing and soap.
            Where: “elevations of 3,500 to 9,000 feet as far north as Idaho and south Nevada foothills on the west and ranging as far east as the eastern slopes of the rocky Mountains”
            Surroundings: Mountain Desserts or Mesas, trees about 20-30′ tall. Nuts are coffee colored.

            IMO I see possible links to f & TTOTC: 1) Bring a child along, 2) Picnic lunch. 3) Elevation possibly less than 9,000 ft (if piñon nuts fit into your solve….), 4) Search are reduced perhaps, 5) Mountain Dessert and Mesas may play into a solve using piñon nuts as an important ‘ingredient’ in their solve.

            uken2it

  36. Ken – If one were to find “A” hoB. It is logical that the searcher would then look for somewhere that the MEEK would fear to go. Once finding that the searcher would go a SHORT distance where no paddle will be needed up “A” creek, with Waters High nearby. Logical step-by-step. then Find the Blaze and indulgence!

    Logic will step you through the poem’s clues AFTER hoB is determined or at least that is my opinion.

    • I agree JD. Forrest said something about someone may have solved 4 clues. For me, HOB is the third clue and someone might already be at the spot that is “no place for the meek” and Forrest knows this because they probably sent him an email and/or pictures of where they are searching. Maybe my spot for “no place for the meek” is incorrect but someone could have been at either the correct HOB or the correct “no place for the meek” (depending on how you number the clues). For me, the contradictions in Forrest’s comments are that if you knew HOB you could go right to the chest, and also his saying the clues get easier as you go. In some ways I agree that some of the clues may get easier if you have the correct WWWH, but if HOB is either the 3rd or 4th clue, just knowing it doe not get you to the chest. To my knowledge this is the one and only treasure hunt that Forrest has designed and written the clues/poem for so he may not have realized how difficult he was making it. On the other hand, maybe he did! 🙂

  37. I took the time to compile some numbers:

    https://goo.gl/UsRcgp

    These numbers might be a helpful resource for users in a general way, so please feel free to download them. I was going to add numbers on nouns, verbs, clauses, etc. But those are contentious 🙂

    • Cool! Another item to add to my bookmarks! My plan is to catalog all roads that are closed for the season due to snow, this will give me target locations for WWWH and hoB for BOG and FUN.

    • hello. your numbers are very interesting .but i believe the only letters that are important are in row.s going from top to bottom. row a b c i l m n t w . based off of the first letter of each chapter i took out s.s and o.s because of what ff said in the middle of respect video that gives us 9 row,s and using Jefferson wheel cipher i found 3 words together maybe coincidence (history told the ) i am working on reversing all of these letter with alpha exam. a- z . i feel based off of the pictures in ttotc i seen a few u,s and f,s both 6 spaces from end hhmmm what you think.

    • Hi Jeremy,
      This is very interesting. I love the work you did with the Briggs partial solution.

    • Jeremy,

      Thanx for your efforts – I’ve been doing similar work and yours is much more organized.

      Good luck on your search!

  38. After finding “A” hoB, if the searcher can not find a likely place that the MEEK would fear to go (Within a reasonable distance), scrap the hoB. No sense going any farther…find another hoB and try the meek test on this site. IMO

    • Why does Meek equal Fear?

      Fear is a component that is completely different from one to another… Some get petrified just seeing a spider, while another would have one for a pet. How can we possibly know what fenn would consider fearful… The guy jumped of a cliff only to land in a tree below, to retrieve a mountain lion he shot. Stands 10 feet from a small heard of buffalo while fish in the early morning when it was still dark, when a kid.

      I’m just wondering how we can draw a line in the sand on what is fearful while looking to what a clue refers to.

  39. Definitions of meek include the following:
    Enduring injury with patience and without resentment – MILD
    Deficient in spirit and courage – SUBMISSIVE
    Not violent or strong – MODERATE
    Having or showing a quiet and gentle nature and not wanting to fight or argue with other people.

    imo someone with these characteristics would be fearful of going where someone with a braver spirit might go – I look for such a place after leaving my hoB

    From there, it’s no place for the mild, submissive or moderate natured searchers.

  40. My -No place for the meek might be in name only – Devil’s Canyon – Cliff Hanger Falls, etc.

    • That is a little more like it. Meek also means sheepish or timid. the area could have something / a place to fit both something that fears, and something / place that would be considered by definition timid etc.

      I have two places in the same area that fits well, One being sheep mountain and the other being coffin mountain. In description to the poem, true fear is not involved as much as the thought of. For me there shouldn’t be fear of going somewhere or travel a treacherous course, but in meaning of an interpretation.

      There is also the mirror image to which also might be involved in the poem, To which the CD is no place for the meek as its mirror image meaning is ‘the Back bone’ of the RM’s. Do parents want to send little Sally and Bobby with Grandma in tow down the raging rapids or walk a shear cliff trail down a canyon wall?

      I imo don’t believe fear has anything to do with brave or a location that one has to be even in spirit. Is In the wood another interpretation for death / coffin? A difficult situation to think about being in.. yet perfectly save to explore the location such as coffin mountain.

      So I was confused when you stated ; if the searcher can not find a likely place that the MEEK would fear to go (Within a reasonable distance), scrap the hoB. No sense going any farther…find another hoB and try the meek test on this site. IMO

      But clarified with examples… of what your meek test meant. Thanks.

  41. “There are two ways to be fooled. One is to believe what isn’t true; the other is to refuse to believe what is true.”
    ― Søren Kierkegaard. RC.

    • RC,
      Quoting Kierkegaard, ouch! He makes me feel naked – what is truth? there is so much to be believed yet so much to argue against. What is truth in these discussions? There are keys.

      • @Uken2it Truth is not what blinds us from itself, but our ability to believe that what we think we know, is true. RC.

  42. With the Powerball at $1.3 Billion, here’s some other numbers.

    Odds of winning the Powerball: 1 in 292,201,338

    Forrest Fenn’s treasure is approx. 1 square foot in size. I’m not sure how much of the 382,894 square miles of the Rocky Mountains is below the Canadian border, but let’s call it 300,000 sq mi. Not all of that is viable search area, but for fun, 300,000 mi. times 5,280 ft. per mi. is 1,584,000,000. So…

    Maximum odds of finding Forrest’s treasure is an estimated: 1 in 1,584,000,000 over five times the odds of winning the Powerball!

    To meet the odds of winning the Powerball, you have to reduce the search area to about 55,341 sq mi. (55,341 times 5,280 = 292,200,480). To give you an idea of what that looks like, Iowa has 56,272 sq mi. So, roughly, to meet the odds of winning the Powerball, the search area would need to be about the size of Iowa. If the search area was only Iowa, and you could only guess where the treasure might be, you have about the same chances of finding Forrest Fenn’s treasure as winning the Powerball.

    This is probably somewhere in the neighborhood of what he meant when he said, “Playing a hunch is not worth much in the search”.

    Unlike the Powerball, we have nine clues to help increase the left side of the odds and decrease the right side. Better get cracking!

    • Another comparison… to meet the odds of successfully navigating an asteroid field, you would have to reduce the search area to about 70% of a square mile.

      C-3PO: “Sir, the possibility of successfully navigating an asteroid field is approximately 3,720 to 1.”

      Han Solo: “Never tell me the odds.”

    • jeremy P. …play this hunch.

      you thinking all wrong, forrest fenn treasure is not one square foot in size it is the entire rocky mountains! every searcher has found treasure, every one of them.

      i do applaud your consistent use of the word “treasure” throughout your comment. much less confusion that way.

      forrest said “playing a hunch is not worth much in the search”? hmmm, well he’s clever that way as playing a hunch may be valuable for the finding. which, he would rather not have happen at this time. i think.

    • Not to be rude but I like your thought, but I think it would be like this.
      5280×5280=27,878,400 sq/ft to the square mile.
      27,878,400 sq/ft x 300,000 sq/mls = 8,363,520,000,000
      So…. without using the brain, and you had to pick one sq/ft, there is a 1 in 8,363,520,000,000 chance of finding TC. If the TC was 12×12. Ouch. IMO 🙂

      • That’s very interesting however, the powerballl is a game of chance. No imagination, knowledge or research needed. I think that increases our odds.
        Without doing the math, the parameters should not be the Sq ft, but the number of solutions one could have in the RM’S.
        That may be high but certainly not as high as the odds stated in your post.
        IMO of course.

        • @eaglesabound: I agree, making educated guesses will help significantly, but you mentioned “the parameters should not be the Sq ft, but the number of solutions one could have in the RM’S”. Here’s another comparison:

          A three-wheel combination lock with 100 number positions yields a whopping 1,000,000 different combinations. It’s exponential. A four-wheel combination lock with 100 number positions would be 1,000,000,000.

          If nine clues had just 10 possible solutions at each turn (10 to the 9th power), that would be 1,000,000,000 as well. Even with 5 possible solutions at each turn, it’s still 1,953,125 possible combinations.

          Hopefully it’s more like tons of possible solutions at slot one, fewer at slot two … one or two possible solutions at slot nine.

          But still, changing the parameter to be number of solutions per clue still easily keeps it in the Powerball odds.

          • We could look at it this small as well: Some have said they have taken close to 100 trips to search over five years.

            If each clue represents a location, and each location had just one fork in the road, and you have to choose left or right a mere nine times, you’re left with 512 possible locations (2 to the 9th power).

            At 100 trips per 5 years, you have more than 20 years of searching ahead to tackle them all.

            Good luck!

          • (Disclaimers: This is just fun with numbers in relation to the Powerball being $1.3 Billion. Actual boots on the ground experience may vary in terms of the treasure hunt. My math is highly suspect.)

    • I have a number in my brain (let me give you a clue) it’s between 1 trillion and 10 trillion. If you can think my thoughts. LOL

        • Ok, just for you, because you asked. I’m standing somewhere north of Santa Fe. Up is down and right is West but I am fixed. That clue will lead you to me and my lucky number. Good luck!

      • I was going to say 5 million but isn’t 5.5 million technically exactly in between? I need some coffee 🙂

        • That’s good Spallies, I’ve adjusted slightly. There is north then there is true north.

          • Hi King of Ambiguity,

            “True” North is the geographical ……North Pole. ( Ho Ho Ho) smile!

            You could also use the North star, Polaris as a guide.

            I think the best definition would be where all longitude lines on a map meet.

            SL

    • Thanks Jeremy..
      I prefer to look at the odds as 50/50…every day I go searching I have two possible outcomes:
      1. I will find it
      2. I will not find it
      Therefore every day the odds are 50/50 that I will find it…
      Unless I don’t look that day…

      This makes me feel SO much better than your odds 🙂

  43. “A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need for illusion is deep.”
    ― Saul Bellow

    R.C.

      • @Yiga What drives me more than the gold is actually finding out what the poem means. Do not misunderstand me, I do want that treasure chest but I think the whole idea of looking for that treasure makes me feel like a kid. How I cherish those years! Anyways, I could tell you that I have figure out that poem but you would not believe me, so I won’t say it. There is only one solve regarding the poem, and only one. I could tell you exactly……… but where is the fun in that? I would not be fair to you. Searchers get caught up in the romance, and mysticism of it all. RC.

        • @RC Ya, I’ve got the impression that you feel you found the end of the ff rainbow on paper. That’s great. I also agree that there is something about a good puzzle to solve. But then THIS puzzle puts the player in the mountains so there are two good things wound up into one. But then it leaves us wound up!

          When the snow melts, do you have the convenience to check it out at the drop of a hat? Do you live near the Rockies? or say ,, Florida? Or Africa like me?

  44. A week or so ago, I posted what I thought were the nine clues. Since that time I have changed my mind a bit. This change was partially predicated upon a closer analysis of the poems punctuation, and partially on some insight I had into a couple of the lines. Here is how I now break down the nine clues.

    1) As I have gone … riches new and old.
    2) Begin it where …Not far, but too far to walk.
    3) Put in beflw the home of Brown.
    4) From there …drawing nigh.
    5) There’ll be no …and water high.
    6) If you’ve been wise …and go in peace.
    7) So why is it …for all to seek.
    8) The answer …and now I’m weak.
    9) So hear me all …to the gold.

    I am not saying that these ARE the nine clues. I am only saying that breaking up the poem in this manner makes the most sense for my solve.

    • JD;

      I like this, it’s what I’ve been thinking for some time.
      Could this be your order for the clues also?
      What state would you be in with this?

  45. OFF TOPIC
    NEW CONTEST ANNOUNCED
    Look at the top of this page. Right under the header photo. The far right tab now takes you to Sacha’s Tee Shirt Design Contest for Tee Shirts at Fennboree…
    Break out your favorite set of markers or your favorite drawing program and get started. You can submit an entry thru February 10th. We all vote on February 11th and 12th..
    May the coolest design win!!!!

  46. Hi everyone,
    So I followed the poem and it lead me to a spot. Trust me you need to follow the poem line by line to be heading in the right direction and see some parts of the poem. Also, I mean EVERYTHING follows the poem too… im not talking about some metaphore type stuff that I read on here all the time where this clue could mean something about something else… just follow the poem.

    My problem is that there is no treasure in the location it brings me to. Maybe it is in the area but Im pretty sure im not done (where most people think the poems over with)… Tarry scant with marvel gaze must mean something other than look quickly and go. Can we talk about this clue?

    • Mike-
      Welcome to the club. Many folks have thought they followed the poem accurately but never found the chest. Your interpretation is only correct if it is the same as Forrest’s interpretation. After five years of searching and tens of thousands of searchers the easy interpretations of the poem have most likely all been tried several thousand times each. Many of the folks here know that. So they are trying something different, understanding that Forrest is a clever person. It would be presumptuous of you to tell others that your way is best and their’s is inferior if you have not found it.

      • Im just saying I took on the poem more directly than reading into the meaning of every word. If you could see where it led me you’d think it was the spot… i didnt mean to offend anyone or claim they are inferior.
        I have not seen anyone comment on the same WWWH or HOB so there is a chance not many have tried this location… Im just to the point where I believe tarry scant with marvel gaze is the last clue to finding the TC

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