The Nine Clues…Part Sixty Two


This is the place to discuss the nine clues…For instance:
What are the nine clues…
Is the first clue “Begin it where warm waters halt” ?

This page is closed to new comments. To continue the discussion please go to the most current NINE CLUES page.

774 thoughts on “The Nine Clues…Part Sixty Two

  1. ” From there it’s no place for the meek ”
    In light of recent events I think this needs some exploration.
    My personal take is that the place may have been a battle site.

    • It’s a place you do not need to go, physically, but if you did you’d need strength, stamina, and the skills of a Himalayan Sherpa. All IMO.

      • VP,
        You wrote: “Jake, why do you think no one else can know the HOB?

        I have a HOB that everything else links to in an unbroken sequence.”

        I think you can figure out WHERE it is, but I truly think WHAT it is, was only known by Forrest & probably his dad, brothers & friends & they can’t talk to us right now for obvious reasons. It seems like Forrest & Peggy are the only ones left at there age. All my op

        • Sorry, Jake, but I have both a “where” and a “what” in answer to the HOB question.

          • Hey VP,
            Deb’s got it down to 200′ which could be close enough with some searching.
            VP, how many feet do you have it down to if you don’t mind me asking.

          • About 2′ (if satellite imagery is to be trusted), and about 200′ from a trail. I would also say that the point is about 200′ from the coordinates FF has provided.

          • You know voxpops, that is what I am finding to be the hardest. Without actually getting there physically, I don’t think anyone can say they have the complete solution. I have narrowed it down to a very, very small place. (Yes, within that 200′ distance that someone has passed.) I am a little unsure of things in the last stanza. More checking to be done, more analyzing before that final confidence level is achieved.
            I think what I want to do next is to try to determine what Forrest is counting as he counts clues. I see many more than 9.

          • I don’t know how many trips you’ve made already, Debbie, but what I’ve found enormously helpful is having a really clear idea of the terrain you’ll encounter going to your final location. My previous trips have made me much more aware of how Google makes everything look too easy, and a handful of hairy adventures have provided a great reality check. Then, when you have a complete solution, you also have a pretty good idea of whether it all ties together, not just with the poem, but also with Forrest’s additional hints.

            And, yes, words alone will not get you there!

          • Hey all, My name is Shannon. I’m launching on this adventure with my kids. I’ve read both books. Forrest is a very sentimental guy and I think that is key. I haven’t read ALL the comments yet. Been trying to come to my own conclusions before being influenced by other opinions. But I see that I’m not alone in my conclusions. SOMEONE mentioned that Fenn left coordinates, when & where are those at?
            Thanks for allowing me to join you on this adventure!

  2. The Little Girl From India Problem

    She speaks English.
    She only has FF’s poem and a map of the US Rocky Mountains.

    She cannot get closer than the first two clues.

    So far I’ve heard…

    “This means you need BOTG.”
    “This means she needs a more detailed map.”
    “This means that clue #3 is off the map.”

    What this really means…

    • LOL! What a GREAT way to start a new page about the nine clues…with a good laugh. I needed that, Jeremy. Thanks a LOT! 🙂

    • I agree, but I don’t agree.
      It was funny!
      (But it does work.)
      I too am grateful for the chuckle.

    • Hello JP,….OK, now hear this 🙂

      LOL! I’ve told Seeker I am playing with a crazy, OOTB solve. And believe it or not, it fits TLGFIP (I like that. 🙂 )

      All the below is IMOIMOIMO—-

      *doesn’t mean you need BOTG
      *doesn’t mean she needs a more detailed map
      *clue #3 is not on any “map of the Rocky Mts”

      Jenny asked if TLGFI could work out where the treasure is.

      Forrest did not answer that she could only “work out the first two clues” or that she could only “solve the first two clues”.

      He said she could get no “closer”. That implies physically. In my crazy solve, that would be 100% correct. She could go to clue #1 and thru clue #2, but no farther, in India.

      Here is why: There are equivalents of clue #1 and clue #2, in India, that she could physically go to….. But, there is no equivalent of clue #3!

      An equivalent of #3 might possibly be found somewhere in Europe or England, but not India. It can probably only be found in the US.

      LOL! Seeker knows what I’m sayin’!! You hafta watch the words and what/how he uses them.

      Sorry, I’m not gonna say what I think the first three clues are in the Poem, nor what my interpretation of them are!! 🙂

      Yeah, I know………loco 🙂 🙂

      • Loco,

        So, in your example, the little girl is not solving for the correct clue one and clue 2, or are you saying that clue 1 and 2 are the same no matter where you live?

        The reason I have a problem with your explaination is that Fenn stated that some searchers have solved the first two clues and they where close tot he chest. Are you saying the little girl in India can be just as close to the chest using local equivalents of clue 1 and 2?

        Fenn has stated that we only need the poem and a good map. He has also stated that the person who solves the poem will go to the chest with confidence.

        Since the little girl has the poem, I have to assume that the map the little girl is using is not a good map, as forest indicated she an not get closer than the first two clues.

        Let’s say I am in Texas with the same map as the little girl. I would assume by FF statement that I will not be able to get closer than the first two clues. I need a different map.

        Scott W.

        • Scott,

          As much as I agree with your assessment. We the readers may not take the whole answer into account. Why even mention another mountain range? Sure it seems harmless enough… Just wishful thinking of another chest to hide in another country… But is that all there is too it?

          You may remember my email some time back… Think of it that way… Places that have the same but not exactly the same, something unique to only one place as
          well. And maybe the function or it’s affect.

          Some of the problem I see… I’m guilty of it myself… We tend to pick and choose what help our own brilliant mind, and may forget the rest of what was stated. The full question and answer.

          This may just be the; were searchers at the first two clues, or simply mentioned were they had been…. Not knowing they were close.

          I would like to believe that the answer only pertains to the Rocky Mountains and the poem… Yet we have been told, fenn will not deliberately aid a searcher.

          Well… He said, Seeker, but I don’t think he meant that directly at me… Wait he does read the blogs. Maybe it’s is a personal hint only I would know… Gee thanks ff.

          • Seeker, I think the Appalachians are located in the U.S. & Canada? Extending from Alabama up North to North East to Newfoundland.
            I have hiked quite a bit in New England.
            I believe the name came from Appalachian Indians.

          • Jake, I don’t think it matters the name of the range or even a little girl , boy, or country… As much as mountains. Imo

        • Hello Scotty, how’s Austin these days?

          Of course she is solving for #1 & #2. That was the premise of Jenny’s question, “work out where the treasure is”.

          Yes, for this crazy solve, clues 1 and 2 are the same, no matter where you live, if you utilize the local equivalents.

          The “map” is immaterial, clue 3 is not on any map…..but if you knew what it is, you could go to it. Even if the LGFI knew what clue 3 is, she cannot go to it, in India.
          Scott wrote–> “The reason I have a problem with your explaination is that Fenn stated that some searchers have solved the first two clues and they were close to the chest. Are you saying the little girl in India can be just as close to the chest using local equivalents of clue 1 and 2?”

          We’ve had that discussion before… infinitum. Searchers had solved first two, but did not know it!! Some say that these people were in the area because of the Poem. My contention is that is just as likely they were there for another reason, whatever it was. And had nothing to do with the Poem.

          But no, dear fellow, She absolutely cannot be physically as close as those searchers….she is in INDIA, the chest is in the Rockies. Even if she came to the Rockies, unless it were happenstance as I believe the others were, she would not get close to the chest, with just the first two clues being solved.

          Since you are a Texan some of the best maps in world are at your disposal… UT. But, for this solve, you only require a map at clue #9.

          A different map from the one TLGFI has will be of no avail. That is one reason I decided to look at the Poem from this perspective.

          all IS only IMOIMO 🙂 🙂

          ( 🙂 if I keep this up, Seeker is gonna want me to send him some of what I’m drinkin’)

      • You are correct, loco.
        When Forrest says things, going with your first conclusion can be misleading.

      • It looks like the answer is becoming further and further from the question. Soon searcher will come up with theory’s from the answer alone. The answer has no merit without the question. Maybe one needs to analyze the question more to fully understand answer.

    • I am buying that crazy wolf. I can only give you 2 cents for yours.
      We need to take a good look at what Forrest is really saying.
      OK, where is Seeker hiding?

    • @ Jeremy Could it be that “not far, but too far to walk” is floating in the air? I wonder…. RC.

      • One of the issues in The Little Girl From India Problem is that we don’t really know anything about the map, except that the map is “of the US Rocky Mountains”. He didn’t say “depends on the map” in his answer, so it doesn’t look too good for the “yeah, but there’s different kinds of maps” theories. It seems like a definitive, full stop, answer. All we have is a “cannot” and “get closer”.

        “Closer” doesn’t say anything about direction (up, down, left, right, forward, backward), just a degree of distance relative to “the first two clues”. Your question was about “floating in air”. It doesn’t take a lot of imagination to consider an aeronautical chart of the Rockies “a map”.

        • Also, anticipating the “yeah, but aeronautical charts and flight directions on Google Maps aren’t REALLY maps”, I’ll throw out another issue of The Little Girl From India Problem. It’s a variant on the “No True Scotsman” issue:

          Searcher 1: “She can’t get past clue #2 with a map of the Rockies. Your clue #3 is on this map.”

          Searcher 2: “Yeah, but that’s not a TRUE map of the Rockies.”

          • There’s a lot of truth to that statement, Cholly. There’s a lot of trivia to be found here…but truth be told…this is no TRUE trivial pursuit…unless you like trivial pursuits…then…truly…this is the place to be! Does that make sense? 🙂

        • He’s very clear on the girl from India problem – no map (whatever detail or topo information) will help find clue #3. There’s no word ‘might’ or ‘maybe’ in case she has the “good map.”

          This is a million dollar treasure hunt and if the goal was to get kids off the couch and into the wilderness, then it seems strange that you can solve the whole thing without a single trip to the Rockies except to pick it up.

          • A good map would contain all the named places in the world. That would be hard to produce in a form that one could utilize. In a paper map, your paper would not leave you enough room to write in all the place names…it would have to be huge. (Some would say it would be the size of the Earth itself.) You need a compilation of maps, although one should consider that the internet provides one with a very good access to those, although the same could be accomplished with the old fashioned ones, just at a much, much slower pace. (You would be constantly ordering new maps to be sent in the mail, to try to find one that might have the correct info you are seeking at a particular time.

          • Hi, Indy. Just reviewed TLGFIP again. FF said, “The little girl from India cannot get ‘…closer’ than the first two clues.” Within the context of the interview, I believe this means physically closer (re: don’t live near the Rockies / can’t afford to travel.) So, she doesn’t have to leave her location in India to solve the first 2 clues or be physically closer to the treasure. If she “…can’t afford to travel” she cannot get physically closer than the first 2 clues, but she can still use maps, her imagination, Google Earth, blogs, other people, etc. to locate clue number 3 and possibly the treasure. Anyone who sloves the first 2 clues (me included – I hope) can do it at their desk, but to get physically closer, I’d have to get up off my fat arse and travel to (through) the area of the 3rd clue. Will be making my third trip to WY this September. Happy hunting!

          • The more I read about Forrest the greater my belief is that this is true.
            He can say something that we would take at face value, and could in a unique way be conveying a similar meaning. Example:
            All one needs is the poem and a good map. Couple that with there is no short cuts… In my mind solving the clues in order is the only way to the chest.
            In the discussion today one thing really stood out for me. Knowing what the first two clues are i.e WWWH etc and what they are..i.e. lake, pond, river???

          • From my copy of the Cheat Sheet “I said on the Today show that the treasure is not associated with any structure. Some people say I have a desire to mislead. That is not true. There are no notes to be found or safety deposit boxes to be searched. The clues can lead you to the treasure, and it will be there waiting when you arrive.”

          • Stephanie,

            Let me bounce a few things off of you (no not rocks or marbles) What do you think about using obscure definitions of the words in a poem, is that misleading? Seems to me it would be misleading and if the poem he wrote is not misleading then we should take the poem at face value.

            So I see two options before me, one being to take everything at face value, normal every day vocabulary for example or the other being trying to discover ways that forest may be weaving in some facts throughout the poem or even his more recent words, or where ever else he may be playing foxily with words and such.

            Neither would be wrong but seem like the answer hinges on the definition of ‘misleading’… but should we take the everyday meaning of the word or something more obscure…… stop the planet I want off ;^)

        • Looked it up. Thanks, Jeremy. A bit exciting, since if I was in India I would be able to determine where the first 2 clues are, but not be able to get to the 3rd clue (location) unless I was able to travel to the Rockies. Third trip to Wyoming coming up this September. Good luck out there. Be safe.

        • Hi Jeremy,

          I take Forrest’s statement about the little girl from India as meaning that once a person has found the first two clues. They need to go to that particular location to determine
          the what the next clue is. Keep in mind that Forrest has said that the clues are objects. Meaning you can see them and touch them.

          I find Forrest’s answer to Q3 interesting. Anyone else note that he used the phrase anyone instead of ” Searchers”

          • Yes I noticed that, to me it means people have been within 200 ft but they where not searching or a searcher.imo

          • Jeremy-
            I agree with your interpretation of what Forrest meant. In my opinion, he was telling us that no matter where you are from, you can get the first two clues from a good map. I also interpret that to mean the “good map” could be found on the internet, by anyone living just about anywhere.

            The remaining clues you will only find once you have traveled out to the area and followed the first two clues to the third clue. In other words..the first two clues can be found by anyone with access to a good map, on the internet or elsewhere. The remaining 7 clues can only be found if you are in the physical location where they reside. They do not appear on a map…no matter how good. You will have to be standing in close proximity to them to recognize them.

            This is an important hint for me. It allows me to rule out many HOBs that I used previously which could be found on a map…unless of course HOB is the second clue…hmmmm

            I’ve never considered that possibility before..and still don’t.

          • Dal,

            An initial read of what f said regarding the girl in India is just as you said, get on the ground at a location derived from 1st two clues.

            If this is what f meant, I would have expected him to be more forthcoming, that is if he was trying to encourage those who can search on the ground to get out there. Or if the intent was to let folks understand they ‘will’ not find it from India or anyplace else if you don’t search in the actual Rocky Mountains, so get outdoors with real people and have some fun.

            Maybe it is crystal clear to some but if it is as you suggest and that is what f meant I wish he would say it more ‘precisely’.

          • I’m surprised to hear you say that, Dal. Have you forgotten Mr. Fenn’s previous comments about one’s ability to solve it to the point that you should be able to walk up to it with full confidence after studying the poem?
            I would think that you would be familiar enough with him and the poem to realize that things are not always as they seem.

          • I tend to agree Debbie. I recall Forrest saying you would go with confidence when you figured out the clues. I never thought you actually had to have BOG for the majority of the solution, just the poem and a good map. Of course you would still have to retrieve the chest with BOG and perhaps to verify your interpretation for the blaze. And by a good map I understood Forrest to mean a topo map or one with that kind of detail with rivers, mountains, gullies, ditches, creeks, etc labeled, and that is not the kind of map our Little Girl From India was theoretically looking at. I’m really not eve sure she could get the 1st two clues correct with that map! 🙂

          • Deb-
            Why would I forget that?
            My interpretation of that statement and how it applies is apparently different than yours. By the way, you should start getting used to that. As far as I can tell your interpretations are generally different than mine, so maybe you shouldn’t be surprised when I express an opinion different from yours…

          • I agree Debbie, I am surprised to hear ‘Dal’ say this. I have posted a response already but appreciate your words that give me encouragement.

          • If I am anywhere near right, you will not gain anything by going to the places represented by the first two clues, AND all clues are solvable from the poem before going to the final spot.

          • CJinCA, that girl in India would have full access to those maps as well. They do have the internet in India, and even if it is map not available on the internet, she could have one mailed, just as we all can.
            Everything I have done has been on the internet, and I’m way far down the line. (And I wish to emphasize that “way” word.)

          • Debbie, I too am way far down the road, have done a ton of research on the internet, and have a solve that I really like and fits the clues really well, at least for me! 🙂 But, and it’s a big but, that was not the question that was asked or answered. The question asked if she had a map of the Rocky Mountains. Only the Rocky Mountains were mentioned, not that she had access to the internet and every detailed topo map out there. That is an assumption made that I didn’t feel should be made. Forrest answered the question as it was asked. Could the little girl solve the poem with a map of the Rocky Mountains? And Forrest said No. I’m still thinking he meant that she needs a better map if all she would be using is a map of the Rocky Mountains similar to the one in TFTW.

          • Keep in mind that Forrest has said that the clues are objects. Meaning you can see them and touch them. When was that said?

          • Dal, I am not in the physical location where those 7 clues reside. Yet I believe I have “found” more than two.
            And that’s why I said I was surprised by what you said. Technically, I guess you can say that you haven’t found any place until you physically go there. (But in that scenario, you couldn’t find the first two unless you were physically there…are you saying that your solutions to the first two clues aren’t places?)

          • CJinCA, I stand corrected on that point. I have been trying to absorb so much over the last week, I had forgotten that the question actually specified a Rocky Mountain map.
            That does actually change things, but I had never really looked at it that way to begin with. I pay more heed to the word “closer” in Forrest’s answer, and feel that the reason Forrest says that is because the Rocky Mountains and India have the first two things in common. She can get closer “physically” to those two things in India (of course she can’t get” physically” closer to those two Rocky Mountain version things.)
            When you get to that third clue, there is no commonality to be found.

          • What is even more interesting is that he says that searchers only share their solves in generalities. Based on that, all those that have written him incessantly with detailed step by step solves might have a big problem. Sounds like a game of cat and mouse, and/or mouse and cat…

          • Well, that gives me hope as I’ve only told Forrest my solve in generalities – maybe I’m closer than I thought! 🙂

          • I have a hard time with someone emailing Forrest with generalities of their search. After all what would be the purpose of doing so seeing you are emailing the man that hid the chest? Brown Trout fishing opens in the late spring correct?

          • Why do you have a hard time with people emailing Forrest with any kind of a solve Chad? I’ve only emailed Forrest a few times and usually it’s just to wish him Happy Birthday or something. Once I sent him a get well card I designed from one of my images and once I sent some pictures of my search area but didn’t say anything too specific about it, just that I like this particular location and the pictures I took of the area. I’m kind of into photography. I’m not as good as Goofy but I still sometimes like to share my pictures. Did I expect any kind of an answer about my search area – Heck no! Although he sent a thank you for the get well email and said he liked my picture of the Snowy Lady Slipper. I doubt very much that I’ll find Forrest’s treasure but I wanted to thank him for creating the treasure hunt and show where he has taken me on the hunt. Besides, he did say he wanted people to let him know where they were searching so again I ask, why does it bother you? 🙂

          • I’ve also sent FF my searches. More recently I’ve been careful not to give full information as I’m a bit concerned that others might be tempted to hack his email account.

          • I am saying with generalities regarding their solves. Heck if I am confident of my solve what do I have to lose in emailing Forrest with it? I too have sent Forrest some emails. Often with tongue in cheek puns. maybe i am just reading to much of the banter here about the girl from India. Now this is just my opinion. Some are sending Forrest generalized solves in hopes that Forrest will drop a hint in his reply.

            Personally I realized that finding the home of brown was a difficult part of any solve sometime ago. Atm my mind is real fuzzy. Maybe in my current state of mind I have taken things out of context. If so please forgive me.

          • Chad, I’m sure many people who write Forrest about their solve, whether detailed or just a general area, are hoping Forrest will either say something positive about their solve to encourage them, say something negative so they can abandon that solve and go on to another, or get some kind of hint. But as some of us have observed, Forrest’s responses seem to do more to confuse people than help. Anyone who thinks Forrest will give them a hint one way or another is sadly mistaken. I think Forrest likes to hear from people about their searches and how they have connected with friends, family or nature, but they better not expect a hint in return!

          • I whole heartily agree. I wish my head would clear so I could focus and pull of some of my previous states on this blog. Vaguely I recall saying something about a searcher having to be in the area of the chest to the poem. Atm my exact words escape me. I hate these weather related migraines. Hopefully it passes soon so I cann refocus and post something coherent and meaningful.

          • good point ken, I missed the generalities comparison to such detailed submissions, thanks

          • I pretty much agree with Dal’s opinion concerning the seemed implication that anyone any place in the world can solve the first two clues with the poem and a good map of the Rockies. What I’ll add is this, as my opinion, is that it seems the first two clues seem to get you to some point from which to initiate your BOTG search. Is this the “starting point”? If so, it would also seem that the final seven clues then lead a person along until they lean over and pick up Indulgence. The question is, at least until someone has the chest in their possession is this, can you know with confidence the solutions to all those remaining clues before gettting to that “starting point”, or do you have to be “there in the search area” before you are confident you are right? In other words, does solving just the first two clues guarantee the retrieval of Indulgence because you’re close enough that with enough searching and not solving any more clues you can find Indulgence, or, which seems more likely to me, you must verify (prove your solve) the remaining clues which lead you to the resting place like a moth to a flame? Using Occam’s razor would seem to have us lean to the latter.

            Hope this helps someone,

          • swwot, I think ultimately the only way one will know for certainty at the end will be if they actually pick that chest up. But from what I see, there is absolutely no reason one has to be in the area to be fully confident that you are hitting on other clues, although one can easily be led astray by the many possibilities that pop up, and one should carefully guard against any assumption.

    • 🙂 I like the interpretation of his answer to mean that the little girl from India needs a more detailed map. If her map is only of the Rocky Mountains and specifically of the 4 states the treasure could be in like the map in the TFTW book, it is not detailed enough like a topo map is to give you names of all the places the 3rd clue might refer to. For me the 3rd clue relates to HOB so the little girl would need a topo map of a much smaller area to continue to follow the clues. This interpretation probably only relates to those who think the poem relates to physical places on a map, like I do. 🙂

      • The problem I have is I recently sent that little girl in India my DVD for the entire Rocky Mountains that I purchased from the USGA. So she had the best topo map money can buy. If she can’t find it, then it’s not on a map of the Rockies.
        I’m just surprised Forrest would have assumed she didn’t have a detailed map when he said she can’t get any closer than clue #2. It’s not like him to presume to know what a person is using for their map. Maybe he’ll retract it once he finds out she had a detailed topo map of the Rockies.

        • Indy, how kind of you to send her that DVD! I’m sure now she will be able to get beyond clue 2. I did. 🙂

      • Why is it ‘a little’ girl? Just seems curious that the question is so specific.

        another way to look at this would be to take define “out” as a location, e.g. “out where?”
        so: “…work out where the treasure is?

        * Can a little girl in India, who speaks good English, but only has your poem and a map of the US Rocky Mountains, work out where the treasure is?

        • Uken, I found the question oddly worded and I think Forrest’s answer was odd too, and open to many interpretations, as is most of what he says! He sure keeps us guessing. 🙂

      • I don’t know why my laughing comment posted here. It was a response to the Back to the Future joke. Sorry, user error.

  3. TGFI will not find it because she only speaks “good English, has ff’s poem, and a map of the US Rocky Mountains. Among many other things, she does not have a plane ticket. The disabled (my autistic son loves maps) bless their hearts, are generally considered wheel-chair bound or for whatever reason, in a position that they cannot physically retrieve the treasure themselves. Until the treasure is found, we are all disabled. We may not all be physically disabled, but with this poem we are mentally disabled. With that aside, would you really want to push grandma in her wheelchair down that path that is no place for the meek? “Eeeek.” I would hate to see dear ol’ dad pick up too much speed on the downhill on his new hoveround. Are you confident enough with your solve to go as a searcher who is disabled in some manner, or go with someone disabled and their colorful array of assisted walking devices? I sure wouldn’t. The disabled cannot get there because they are disabled. Plain and simple. Ms. Kile, bless her heart asked the right question, but unfortunately chose her words poorly and Mr. Fenn simply answered her question directly.
    As a sidebar to this lil chitchat. Is there really someone in your life that you would trust enough to use your faith whether guided or a fools errand, to retrieve a speculated million to multi-million dollar treasure and return home for a fair percentage? Based on the general mentality of people when it comes to greed in America these days seems to scream that the odds would be less than a 50/50 chance IMO. As well, do you firmly believe that the person you just met on a blog as a “hiking buddy” is a chip off the ol’ block and someone you would trust your life with sharing a percentage of the speculated value? That’s a one-way trip to adventure, brought to you by your local search and rescue crew. Stay safe out there searchers.

    • Well med to answer your question, I have several friends I would trust to retrieve the treasure. They are the type guys that feel keeping their word is more important than money; they don’t give their word often or lightly. But if they say they will do something it will get done or they will die trying. They are also the type people you don’t want to make mad. 🙂

      I do agree with you about the general sad state of America today. But there are still good folks out there, just look at all the great people trying to find Randy with no expectations of gaining anything for all their troubles. There may be hope for us yet.

      • omg….. been following this FF venture for few months now??? I’m a avid prospector…… miner…. businessman… this is very intriguing???? FF has accomplished what he set out to do for sure…… I’m thinking we should all consider similar adventures for all of our gen x’rs to consider and solve… Best of luck to everyone and keep thinking an d be safe….. sherlock

      • Goofy I do agree with you that there might be hope for mankind. Your comment really struck a cord with me. Those searching for Randy are a great example of people giving of themselves without expecting anything in return.

        I am fortunate to have one true friend and they happen to be a searcher as well. I would trust them with my life. The value of the treasure is small potatoes compared to the strength and value of our friendship.

        I feel sorry for people that never experience that kind of trust and sadly most people never will and mostly it’s of their own doing.

        Keep the faith!


  4. As I wrote in the previous blog, the important question is what ff believes the first two clues are. Many believe clue #1 = wwwh, #2 = canyon down and #3 = nf,btftw. If Forrest counts the clues this way the GFI can not travel the correct distance.

    I count my clues differently. #1 = stanza #1, clue #2 = lines 1,2 &3 of stanza #2, and clue #3 = hoB. If Forrest counts the clues like I do, he is saying that the GFI can not find hoB with only a map and the poem = BIG difference in the two. POBBIBLY a BIG clue!

    What line IS clue #3 according to ff? That is the big question. I go for hoB

    • JD, it wouldn’t matter how FF counts them. HOB is still past 1 or 2. I count them in a similar fashion to you, but I think people get way to hung up on the numbers

  5. Mr. Fenn posted this earlier and Dal has started a whole new thread with this information at the top. But. that had to do with the search of Randy – here we can speculate and discuss if our former theories about what he meant still hold water in light of this new information.

    “n the light of recent events I feel compelled to repeat several comments. When searching please don’t get target fixation or become obsessed with your solve to the point where you ignore these fundamental guidelines.
    If you can’t make two trips from your car to your solve in several hours, then don’t go.
    Don’t search anywhere an 80 year old man could not carry a heavy backpack.
    The treasure is hidden more than 8.25 miles north of the northern limits of Santa Fe, New Mexico.
    The treasure is very definitely in the Rocky Mountains.
    Never search alone or in the winter when nighttime temperatures are low.
    Carry some kind of device that will make your location known at all times.
    And something I have not said before, if you are going into rough country it is probably best to leave your pets at home.”

    • New phrases:

      “Don’t search anywhere an 80 year old man could not carry a heavy backpack.” – This seems to rule out earlier theories about wheeled carts, boats, horses and other possible alternate means of moving the treasure.

      “If you can’t make two trips from your car to your solve in several hours” – This seems to indicate less than 6 to 8 hours – tops. Several may mean different things to some, but more than 6 to 8 seems unlikely.

      All in my opinion, of course.

  6. My thoughts on TLGFI….with ff comment, my solve did not change with Q#5. My Rocky Mtn Map only shows my solve for clues #1 and #2, BUT my detailed state map shows my solve for clue #3.

  7. THIS IS THE MOST SALIENT POINT if Linda correctly stated ff as saying, (he) Randy was west of the TARGET, and even south, just how big a hint is this for us??? Real treasure hunters…

    Is anyone listening? This is a gift from ff about where we should be looking, can you hear me?

    Tom T

  8. Just some food for thought. the question (in part) with its answer is:

    “Can a little girl in India, who speaks good English, but only has your poem and a map of the US Rocky Mountains, work out where the treasure is? And would she be confident as she solves each clue, or only confident when she has solved them all?”

    Forrests answer: “I wish I had another treasure to hide in the Appalachians. The little girl in India cannot get closer than the first two clues. There are many disabled people who are deeply into maps and geography, and they are having a lot of fun.”

    Why would ff first response be “I wish I had another treasure to hide in the Appalachians”? A new treasure in the Appalachians would be closer to India.

    He then adds, “The little girl in India cannot get closer than the first two clues.”
    Because of his 1st statement,is he now saying that clues 1 and 2 take you east or south/southeast, but all other clues take you away from India, or west, north, or northwest…further away from India?

    Why does he then bring up disabled? There is no mention of the Indian girl being disabled.?

    Just food for thought

    • Because being disabled may hinder your ability to go to the search area, similar poblem that the little girl from India has. Wonder how the answer would of went if she also had a plane ticket to undisclosed location as a resource but that far to complicated of a question for Fenn to answer.

      • The Count….you are correct sir!

        Question: Can a little girl in India, who speaks good English, but only has your poem and a map of the US Rocky Mountains, work out where the treasure is?

        Answer: The little girl in India cannot get closer than the first two clues.
        There are many disabled people who are deeply into “maps” (this would seem to connote availability of many types/forms of maps?) and geography, and they are having a lot of fun.

        –As stated, the LGFI, with the map she has, cannot get any closer than solving the first two clues.

        –Comparatively speaking, the disabled are in the same situation. They are restricted to what they have available. Anyone deeply involved in maps, regardless of type and/or detail, are having a lot of fun…..but they can get no closer than solving the first two clues,

        ? This means that #3 is not on ANY map and thus requires BOTG to identify?

        ? Or, this means that #3 is not on ANY map and is something that no one has giver any consideration to?

        Seems to be the only two options…..IMO!
        Do you choose to follow consensus OR use your imagination?

        LOL!!! Good Luck to ALL!!……………loco

        • There is one other possibility but with a lot lower probability than the two you have stated which is there is another resource needed for TLGFI to Identify clue #3 and beyond that can’t be found in India. This is highly unlikely because most resource that can be found else where can most likely be found in India due to the internet.

          • A map of the Rockies does not equal a good map that forrest mentions. Perhaps the girl in india needed a larger map that included more than the RMs? Clue 3 might be outside of the RM. Unlikely, but would fit better if where you end up is where you started.

          • Count, I know what resource the LGFI is missing: Beef! They don’t eat cows in India, right? just kidding – I’m just making a joke.

        • I wish I had another treasure to hide in the Appalachians”? so why? maybe he would do the path different .
          The girl only has the poem and map,and she can only get two clues. Why? Because she does not have access to something she needs. It’s not because she cant get here, her parents could bring her. The older people are having fun with maps also but that also implies ,that’s all there going to get is fun.

          Forrest said all you need to find the treasure ,is the poem ,and a good map.

          However you are going to have to solve the clues in the poem ,and for that you are going to need more than a map.

          IMO Forrest is hinting that people are taking the words “all you need to find the treasure ,is the poem ,and a good map” to literal.

          • Lisa wrote—> IMO Forrest is hinting that people are taking the words “all you need to find the treasure, is the poem ,and a good map” to literal.

            “This poem written by Forrest Fenn contains nine clues that if followed precisely, will lead to the end of his rainbow and the treasure.”

            Maybe he means, when you solve the Poem it will lead you to the good map, then to the treasure??

            “Tarry scant with marvel gaze”!!!! 🙂 🙂

    • JD… While I 100% agree with your reasoning and understanding, I am not sure the directions in your conclusions are accurate.

      In my opinion I agree that TGFI can’t get closer than the 2nd clue because the remaining clues are further (in distance) away from India than clue 2.

      But, India is a big country (East/West and North/South). If you do careful inspection of the distance from all corners of India, I think you will come to a different conclusion.

      Check the maps…that is was the reason for the rest of his answer (“There are many disabled people who are deeply into maps and geography, and they are having a lot of fun.”).

      It’s not about the disabled, but the maps and geoghrapy.

      All IMO.

      • Mr Mike, if I may chime in? Too late.
        From which border of India are you heading to the clues?
        Are you coming over the north pole, from the west or east?
        India is a big country.

          • OK, the closest one.
            So we are to assume that Forrest knew the little girl from India was at the closest border to where the clues are?
            I think Forrest is very intelligent, but I find it hard to believe he can know which part of the country she was at.
            I’m going to shut down my tracking programs now. I feel a bit creeped out! Or maybe I am just paranoid? Didn’t Forrest address this paranoia somewhere?


    • And…

      Just one more interesting fact to validate our conclusion, The only mountain range in the US that is closer to India than the Rocky Mount search area is the Appalachians.

      Again this is my opinion…

      Check the maps for yourself

    • Thank you JD ! I posted yesterday about this. Forrest has said over and over again, ” all you need is the Poem” ( except I need more) BUT Thats what he has said for years!
      And he had 10 days to answer that same ole question that he has explained over and over….. So it did NOT deserve an answer. So he gave a FennSpeak answer, a physically closer answer. Re Read her question, she words in so weird, can the little girl work out where the treasure is ….. NO…
      Yhats asking can she work outside, work out where…work where…. Forrest answered that type question in FennSpeak.

      • I for got to say thats IMHO. I am guessing at thie above. But if he did give a physically closer answer, then the other clue/places are westerly from the first 2, IMHO.

    • Perhaps Forrest wishes he had another treasure to hide in the Appalachians so that people who could not afford to travel out West would have their own Treasure to search for. He seems like that kind of guy. I don’t think this has anything to do with TLGFI.

      • But f could provide another chest if he wanted (so could we) in the Appalachians. So why did he say this?

        • u2,
          Forrest stated: “I wish I had another treasure to hide in the Appalachians.”
          Obviously he is not in that position & if he was, he has already done way more than most rich people have done, even though allot of rich people that have given or started charities, we really have no chance of seeing a dime from them as opposed to Forrest treasure. Give a billion dollars to a billion people? What do you have? The governing distributors already took the greater share.

    • I don’t think Forrest is giving any hints with the Appalachian Mountains sentence. I think he is simply saying he wishes he had the opportunity to hide another chest in the Appalachians so the people on the East side if the US could get out into the mountains close by so they wouldn’t use distance as a reason for staying at home.

      • KEN & TxTH… I agree 100%.
        As far as tlgfi, she is like the disabled person, only able to solve the first 2 clues by NOT BEING THERE.
        My #3 clue is Hob. I feel you have to be there to know what HOB is, according to F.
        The HOB is not on a map. It’s an interpretation of something.
        F said, the first two clues were solved, the other 7 walked by because they didn’t get the understanding of where they were at, (or what they were seeing!).
        I feel, from the clues F has given, a good map will get you to the area (#1 / #2) and imagination will get you to the other 7.
        Imo, HOB, HL & WH, BLAZE are nouns. The rest are action/directions.
        Appalachian Mts = for those who can’t afford to travel far.

        ☆☆ The question I would love to ask F is,
        If you plan on hiding a chest in the Appalachian’s would you use the same poem or write another one?

        • Imagination is more important than knowlege.
          #1 & #2 clues = knowlege
          #3–#9 = imagination!
          This and the above comments are IMO.

          PLAY SAFE

          • After a number of years searching maps and reading the poem I have to agree.
            So in my book identifying the starting point with certainty is a must. Which I have found to be a challenge. Some have said the poem is encoded… maybe in a way. Keeping in mind Forrest likes to play with words. I have started on a new path with the poem. My questions are did Forrest toss in hints as he wrote the poem? I think he did, but they are not so apparent that everyone sees them.

            Recently I noted an anomaly in the poem and seen some discussion on another blog that kinda pushed me toward looking into it farther. This investigation led me to braking the poem down mathematically.

            9 clues, 6 stanzas. Divide 6 by 2 equals 3. 3 times 3 equals 9.
            Looking over:
            Just makes me wonder Do we have it right? Forrest has never confirmed or denied this interpretation of the clues. I can tell you from experience there is at least a hundred places that can line up with WWWH & TICD, the sticking point is Hob. I have a small pile of research concerning brown trout fishing in the four states. Meh most of which were a bust due to the fact they failed to match up with WWWH etc. Which led me to the line of thought that Hob is a geological formation. One that a person would look right past if they do not take the time to just sit and look around using the imagination of a child. Of course this is just mho.

      • Why did f say he wished he could hide another chest in the Appallachins (which he really could do as could we) and not in the Sierra Nevadas? No sympathy for us left coasters?

        • Not surprised he said Appalachians. He may hidden in Rockies because of the personal meaning there but Appalachians are amongst the oldest mountains in the world. Once the centerpiece of Pangea and rising to heights similar to the present day Himalayas these mountains have been worn down by the elements over a period of 300 million years. They have incredible character to them and there is an ominous silence of the ages walking through the Appalachian wilderness in the dead of winter. So again am not surprised he mentioned Appalachians. Perhaps whomever finds the chest will utilize a portion of the resources to create a new chase in that part of the country.

  9. P.S. for my sake, I hope that this is not what he is saying. If it is, I may have to start over with my solve. : – (

    • JD, I dont know your solve, but maybe looking at it from a different location will fit better with your clues.

  10. JL, – from nine clues part 61
    You said: “There are no short cuts, so by skipping the third clue you would not find the fourth clue. The forth clue is dependent on the previous. I have a blaze yet I have no chest lol.”

    There are no short cuts, I know this but when your taking a test & trying to find answers & you hit question #3 of say a nine question test. You realize that you have spent too much time trying to figure it out so the best thing is to move on to question #4, I did that & found the answer to #4, now I want to confirm I am heading in the right direction so lets tackle question #5, I solved that one as well with the utmost confidence & solved questions #6, #7 & #8.

    So even though I did not solve what HOB(#3) is, after skipping & solving #4 through #8, I realize I do not need to solve anymore, do I?

    It’s not a shortcut. I still have to travel or put in below the HOB, whatever it is.
    I know where it is just don’t know what it is…….
    All IMO.

    • ok Jake, that would be a logical approach but if HOB is clue 3 and you skip it how can you be certain that clue 4 is right. HOB is lets say the hardest clue and f said if he told you what it was u would go right to the chest. I had the same problem with HOB everyone has I am on my 5th and final one I hope. Every time my HOB changed the rest of my clues had to change or should I say the names changed but the clues remained the same. Without the proper HOB everything after that is the wrong location. I think you have to go with what you think until it is proven wrong and then you at least know what is an error so you can look for ways to correct it.

    • My 4th clue, when figured out was like being in a completely dark room & the all the lights came on.
      After doing allot of research on my solve, I had realized that the only clue you could skip was the third. You cannot skip any of the others.
      The way I see all 9 clues is like a point or a line on a map & you just have to connect the dots.
      Near where THOB is located you can only take a right or a left. When I tried to apply the clues to the right, especially the 4th clue, there was no way it was going to work. Beside the 4th clue holds the word that is key, which pretty much was confirmation of where HOB is.
      I agree with what F said about u would go right to the chest. Right not left & that direction will take you to it.

      I hope to go there in May or June to prove or disprove an error in my thinking.

  11. Considering my plans for the near future, I have decided to share some of my insights into the poem. Some here will go Ummmmm. Others will go Ahhh Haaa.
    Over the years I have read and reread the poem trying like so many others to make some sense of what i am reading. Forrest has said that the person that finds the cheat will have read the poem over and over and studied it. So I took this approach. Here are some of my observations:
    The poem consists of nine clues, six stanzas. Now keeping in mind Forrest hates math. I got to thinking ” where are the nine clues in this poem? ” When it dawned on me that Forrest has said Start at the beginning. For sometime I took this to mean ” Began it where warm waters halt” WRONG!! After thinking a bit about it I realized that first three clues are hidden within the first two stanzas. Woaaaaa hoss. What’s that? Come again? Well here is the math. Nine clues, six stanzas.
    Break the six stanzas down into groups of two, this leaves us with three sets of stanzas. 3×3=9. Ut ohhhh. Now we need to look at the first two stanzas and figure out the three clues. So much for the short cut of WWWH.
    As I have gone alone in there. Where did he go. In essence What are the first three clues in the first two stanzas??

    I am not responsible for any solves you toss as a result of this posting.

    • Everything to follow is IMO… there is a reson that nobody has found Induldence yet. He has proven it will not be easy for the finder… IMO, when you do find the HOB, you still have a lot of work to do!!!!

      • This is so true! And I believe it’s why those who had the first two clues correct came hopelessly unstuck after that.

    • Of course all of what I have posted above is my opinion.
      Seeing getting the first clue correct is still a matter of debate in some circles.
      I humbly ask you Forrest seeing that the first clue is so difficult to figure out.

      What is the first clue.

  12. Hey UKEN2IT I noticed a comment u had left about, tarry scant with marvel gaze. Tarry scant means, do not loiter or stop, marvel gaze means, to stare at something in awe of it. Put that together and it means, DONT STOP AND STARE, just take the chest and go in peace.

    • Nick that’s certainly the generally accepted definition, but I believe there’s at least one other meaning buried in that little phrase (and in my case, two additional meanings).

      • voxpops, I see you may have come to realize how intricate this is just like I have. There seem to be dual meanings to everything. (Sometimes triple or more, and I don’t mean just the words in the poem.
        If I am right about where this treasure is, his poem is a masterpiece in my eyes.

        • That’s exactly how I feel, Debbie. Last summer, after returning empty handed once again, I was deeply frustrated, thinking that the poem was just too vague to yield a solid and definitive location – and I almost threw in the towel. But then after hundreds of hours more with the poem, I began to see the light. I discovered I had been on the right track and had part of the solution already, but I had ignored an “inconvenient” aspect of it (getting sidetracked by an amazing coincidence), and was missing the ending. Then, two or three days before Thanksgiving, the whole thing became crystal clear – just in time for the snow! And, yes, the solution – or rather the whole intricate construction – is, indeed, majestic!!!

          Maybe our paths will cross in the months to come…

          • That meet-up will not happen. I will never make it to the Rockies.
            When I do figure it out, I will tell what I know. I thought of just spilling the beans with what I know now, but with what little I’ve seen here, I know it would most definitely get everyone’s attention. (Talk about a gold rush.) But there is the problem that it is not the best time of year, and would a gold rush be good? or bad? for the area in which it is located (or for the people involved?)
            That is my dilemma.

          • If I am trying to work out a puzzle, it’s not very satisfying having someone tell me the answers – but that’s just me.

            As for the gold rush, I think it would be a stampede (particularly if the numbers visiting this site are anything to go by)!

          • voxpops, it would be pleasing to those that only wanted the gold.
            But if you knew, and had not intention of going yourself, would that not be a hard thing to not tell?
            Forrest derives something from the not telling. I think he’s having a lot of fun and that’s great.
            But I am having a real hard time right now not telling what I know (or what I think I know.) Maybe it’s an ego thing, I don’t know. Maybe it’s the puzzler in me. I want to KNOW if I am right.

          • Well Deb you should send your solution to Dal and we can post it under Armchair Adventures and you will have your very own page to discuss your solution.

            I’m going to go out on a limb and say I doubt you have to worry about creating a gold rush. Seems like I’ve heard this story before. 🙂

            Anyway, if you are correct and someone finds the chest at least you’ll get the credit you deserve for solving the poem.

          • Well, I shall be going out there in March, hopefully. If my solution’s correct, you’ll all know via Forrest. If it’s wrong, then I’ll post my solution here. You’ll also know whether you had the same solution at that time, Debbie. Does that work for you?

          • March along VP,
            Within 2′. You should be able to go get it now from your estimation.
            You will only have to dig through the snow a foot or 2.
            I know if I had it down to that I wouldn’t be chatting right now….

          • I don’t intend to have an abortive trip where I can’t get to my spot. I’ve done that once before, and I can’t afford it financially or emotionally. It’s not just a question of the few feet at the final destination, if I can’t get my car through snowdrifts, I wouldn’t want to try walking a few miles through deep snow – and possibly return with a 40lb pack. It’s important to plan!

          • VP, That’s a common sense reply considering the elements.
            But why do you think you have it pegged down to 2′? Unless you were throwing garbage out there?

          • VP,
            Have you have tapped into military sats? which I doubt. Coordinates are only a guessing game unless you know exactly where you have been & if you have been there, you would have been 2feet from it. Unless your guessing of course.

          • Sat images from what GUI?
            Are you saying you are using other applications other than GE, G maps or….?
            Are you telling us we are all missing something including Forrest who stated:

            (38:42) “There are clues in my new book that can help a person”
            Is it possible to locate the TC without ever leaving your computer & Google Earth? “NO, it isn’t, did I really say that? Google earth doesn’t go down far enough”

            I think you need to change your thinking about the 2 foot theory.

            Just my simple observation opinion.

          • Jake, you really have a hard time believing anyone could have solved anything. How do you suppose anyone could go with confidence with your level of skepticism?

          • Sorry VP.
            Your comments just don’t add up to what Forrest has said & logical thinking by my own personal opinion.
            I don’t single out anyone, just those people’s comments that don’t add up like your 2 foot comment.
            So answer the Q.
            Are you using any different apps that we are? Because you cannot see detail in GE to about 20 feet for good reason.

          • Why are you so curious about the resources I’m using? Also, are you aware that satellite images change over time? The improvement in detail in many quadrants since the chest was first hidden is remarkable. I can see all I need to, thanks very much, and what I see gives me great confidence. You can be as disbelieving as you like, it’ll make no difference to what I’ve discovered.

            I’m sorry that you find my certainty upsetting.

          • LOL VP,
            I am not upset by any means.
            I am a problem solver at heart & mind to the logical core.
            When someone states a improbability, I have to question such statements.
            I give you credit for putting BOTG like myself & many others but the 2 foot comment set off my BS alarm, if you know what I mean?
            You have dodged the Q & I think you have the same visuals as we all have but u have not admitted this.
            I know you don’t want to divulge much info which is understanding but don’t take us for fools in believing you have it down to 2 feet when you don’t.

          • Imagine for one moment that, from a satellite, you saw an “X” on the ground that measured twenty feet along each cross-arm of the letter (and since you can easily pick out hoods, roofs and trunks of individual cars that’s not such a tall order). If you were then asked to determine the center point of the X, do you think you could pinpoint that to a couple of feet? And , if not, why not?

            I have not seen a giant “X”, but what I have seen gives me an equivalent confidence in my solution.

            I should point out that I came up with the coordinates from the poem before even looking at the satellite imagery. I was absolutely dumbfounded when I then went online to look at the pics.

            I’m not in the habit of BS-ing.

          • OK voxpops,
            Now I have 2 BS alarms going off here. The more you try to splain yourself seems to set off more BS alarms.
            I am 2 feet away from the 3rd alarm.
            Do I have a 4th coming soon?

          • LOL VP,
            We are all seeing the same visuals as you are, aren’t we? We all have the same programs & GUI’S to interpret the same data? Weather MS or Mac or the penguin or the other OS available.
            But most by far no what 2 feet is. Especially those playing horseshoes & the unfortunate ones being near hand grenades.
            And we all know that GE does not have detailed vid of 2 feet.
            So I ask again how you could come to that confusion?

          • Read my previous post (not the alarming one 😉 ) and try to understand what I’m saying. I don’t think I can explain it any clearer without giving stuff away that I don’t intend to.

            And BTW, a 27″ iMac really helps for clarity

          • I am sure we all look forward to your story ” How I found indulgence ”
            When do you think it will go to printer?

          • No credit will be given. I have no intention of telling anyone who I am. (I just want to KNOW if I am right….I like puzzles, but I also take pleasure in knowing if I have solved them.

          • Debbi,
            Send your thought in… we are not shy in telling you if you’re wrong or right.. lol

            Honestly, in doing so you get different versions of a completed thought / theory Of that theory. [ most of the time we only get bits and pieces and that is difficult to evaluate constructively ] . You may find it helpful as someone may point out something you may have over looked. Just hope ya not easily bruised. However most folks do try to help.

          • Seeker, if I did that, so many bells, whistles, and light bulbs would be going off as one read, they would not bother sending a reply. Anyone that really planned on putting boots on the ground, would already be packing up as they continued to finish reading the details.

      • Debbie,
        I wouldn’t be too concerned about that, my general consensus is that once they are posted on site most come to the conclusion that it could not possibly be right.
        I do not recommend doing so as it might detract from your self esteem but if you are not thin skinned and you don’t care to go find the TC yourself then you don’t have much to lose.imo

        • JL, every one I’ve read has serious flaws. But I can’t find a flaw in mine yet. And trust me, those alarms WOULD be going off.

          • All mine had flaws I just chose to ignore them and some I didn’t find the flaw because at the time I really didn’t understand certain parts of the poem. If I felt the way you do I would just wait and go get it. One right solve in every 5 years you should have until about 2021 to get it.

          • Hardly, Jake. (But then who knows?) I only know what I am seeing. And I cannot for the life of me understand why no one else is mentioning it. (Or maybe I can…because it does become so blazingly apparent that this is the correct area after so many clues. And they don’t want to share…if they did share, the place would be crawling with searchers.)

          • You sound pretty sure, as sure as I feel. Don’t give in to pressure, never tell! 🙂 especially since I want to go in June.

          • Debbie,

            If you’re absolutely sure you have the correct solve I’d contact someone to hunt for you and split the treasure with them. You said you’re not interested in the gold but I bet you’d have fun doing good with it. There used to be a link somewhere here for contacting another searcher to do the job.

            If not I’d wait until at least August to post your solve. Give the families a chance to search again on their summer vacation before the stampede. I seriously doubt that the individual that finds it will keep the location secret for long. If it’s me (LOL) I’ll tell you whether your solve was correct.

            Tom G.

          • Debbie,

            Agree with Tom. You should wait until at least August to give everyone who has plans to travel in May, June, or July an opportunity to check their solutions first. Nobody wants their solution exposed at a time when they cannot get there due to the dangerous conditions. Whether wrong or right, it could cause a lot of people to attempt a trip when Forrest has requested we wait until Spring.

          • Debbie,

            I don’t mean to be critical, but we have read comments about others searchers who feel they are correct, don’t understand why others haven’t pick up on it, no way it can be flawed or mistaken, all other solves don’t compare to theirs…

            Others have stated to you ‘ don’t tell a sole ‘ etc. But I can’t help myself when I ask… if your going to physically search, why keep repeating you got it figured out? or if you can’t and have know one to assist you in a search, take time to get to know an active searcher, take the chance and have someone go have a look for you… yes a deal and trust is needed, but you have seen there are many here that would do that – if you can convince them of the correct solve- Look at the good folks in the search for Randy, There time, money, extreme efforts, selflessness personalities etc. There can be found a partner if you take your time to located one from the chase.

            The other thought is… send Dal or Goofy a part of your theory, something convincing, not just clue one is WWWH, and see if others can pick apart something you may have over looked… That is what most here do, and most appreciate the feed back.

            Just suggestions, it all up to you.

  13. Mr. Mike.

    I can not agree with you. The center of the Rocky mountains lies at about 40degreesLatitude. India lies between about 34 degrees, down to 8 degrees. Center of mass = about 21 degrees. Even if you draw a line from the most westerly point in India to the center of the Rockies, that is the shortest distance.

    If clue #1 and #2 move you closer to India (move East or Southeast, and that is the closest she can get. The remaining clues take you farther away = North west or west or south west and west. Going directly south MIGHT get you a few feet closer, but that is questionable.considering the distance.

  14. Mr Mike

    If I came off sounding like a “Know it all” – I apologize. That was NOT my intent. I was just expressing an opinion. If I am wrong in my opinion, I would be delighted if someone were to point out mu error. Thanks


  15. One thing has been bugging me with clues 3 and 4. Solving clue 3 may require BOTG to solve but last time Fenn spoke of how meny clues have been solved he stated 4 but uncertain. That means if clue 3 has been solved them somehow clue 4 was solved very fast after clue 3. With the difficulty of solving a clue this might mean that clue 4 is easy to solve than clue 3.Or by solving clue 3 clue one also sovles clue 4. Either way it does appear that this 2 clues (clue 3 and 4) have a common relationship that they do not share with clues 1 and 2.

    • He has to rely on people sending him solutions and so it’s impossible to know the timing of the clue solves. The person with four clues could have been sitting on that solution for several years before sending it in.

      • Forrest may be just assuming that maybe four clues have been solved because searchers have shared where they were searching and not necessarily shared a complete solve…

      • This idea was made on speculation that the one that possible solved clue 3 and 4 are the same that have solved clue 1 and 2. With the LGFI question it stand with reason that the one mostly likely to solve 3 and 4 have already solved 1 and 2. Of course none of this is based on facts but how many facts do we really have to go by when it comes to the clues in the poem.

      • I’m not sure where it is at, I believe MW but my stupid smart phone takes forever to navigate that site someone else can most likely find it long before me. But Fenn says someone solved clues up to 4 but he is uncertain(something like that). If no one post it soon I’ll search it out latter for you.

  16. Since there are different ways of counting clues, it would be easier for me were you to say what you think clue #3 and #4 are. For me, Clue #3 = hoB and #4 includes all of Stanza #3. I know that this is different than many other solvers. For me, each full and complete sentence = a clue. Saying what you feel clue #3 and clue #4 will help others who might wish to respond. Just my opinion

    Good luck with your search

  17. In reply to tjschweersTJ Schweers.

    I am rolling back the sands of time bare with me for a moment.

    ♦Not associated with a structure……what does “associated” mean?
    ♦ Q: Is the Blaze one single object? “In a word – Yes”
    ♦ Q: Did the same 9 clues exist when you were a kid and to your estimation will they still exist in 100 years and 1000 years? “The clues did not exist when I was a kid but most of the places the clues refer to did. I think they might still exist in 100 years but the geography probably will change before we reach the next millennia.”

    He has told us over and over that the smart place to start is at the begining. Starting in the middle of the poem, for instance at the home of Brown, is not a good strategy.

    I apologize, my pain levels are rising due to a change in weather. I hate MI weather. It was sometime ago, around the time Forrest commented on the chest not being hidden around graveyards, dams, outhouses. or structures.
    Please pardon me if I am mistaken. I recall looking up the word object in order to get an ideal of what Forrest was pointing at. I came up with natural objects.

  18. Hello Dal,
    A moment of your time, if you please.

    You wrote -”In my opinion, he was telling us that no matter where you are from, you can get the first two clues from a good map. I also interpret that to mean the “good map” could be found on the internet, by anyone living just about anywhere.

    The remaining clues you will only find once you have traveled out to the area and followed the first two clues to the third clue. In other words..the first two clues can be found by anyone with access to a good map, on the internet or elsewhere. The remaining 7 clues can only be found if you are in the physical location where they reside. They do not appear on a map…no matter how good. You will have to be standing in close proximity to them to recognize them.”
    Hmmm, 2 clues can be solved beforehand and the other 7 must be solved in the field?

    This certainly may be correct and I am not going to try and dissuade you at all.

    However, having said that, I would like to ask you a question. Forrest has said, paraphrasing, that he will not mislead a searcher nor will he tell them if they are wrong, thus misleading themselves.

    Given your stated opinion above, how do you reconcile this statement by Fenn to that opinion? —> “I warned that the path would not be direct for those who had no certainty of the location beforehand, but sure for the one who did.”

    Given where he placed that statement, it seems it is most assuredly related to solving the Poem and directed at searchers for the chest.

    If you have a different interpretation of the statement from the obvious, would you share that?

    LOL!! OK, two questions……Thanks in advance for your reply!

    • oh! oh! I like to answer that question as well… but since you asked Dal first I’ll hold off … for now.

      I will only add this other comment fenn has made many time in many ways. Paraphrasing ~ if you don’t have the first clue nail down… stay home. This may simply mean ” know where to start ” yet I have a different version. Big surprise there, huh?

      • LOL!! Well, ol’ yeller, you might as well take a shot at it.

        I just saw his reply to Debbi, above. Didn’t see it before I posted mine. It was a cute answer, but did not contain anything of substance, I would have still asked my questions.

        It’s been a couple of hours since I posted that request. I don’t think he has a moment to spare. Or, Mr. Neitzel doesn’t deem me worthy of a reply? 🙂 Or maybe he just feels that, if his interpretation were known by all, he would be at a disadvantage? 🙂

        Anyway, fire aawwaay. Always like to hear your versions of things… the way, where the heck were you all day?

        • Can’t tall ya were I’ve been… but lets just say the old red bus if filled with gas, and tires check for proper pressure.

          Ok.. It not a new thought, but it does have a twist. The remaining seven clues involve the first two clues. The first clue being the significance of all… beside the last one which if the final goal of it all. but with out understanding it… no chest.
          The reason for the girl not being able to get closer than two clues is the same as anyone. The 7 remaining clues are in the same location… so boots on the ground is required… But how do you get around the knowing beforehand comment? If we understood how the first two clue work or mean, the 7 clues will fall in place.

          How do we get around the “possibility” some indicated the first two clue but didn’t know? They simply left to finish their versions of the guest. The problem is not knowing where the first clue [ seemingly ] the most important, it the why. That is the difficult part but not impossible. The correct, right, good map is not A map, but THE map… designed in the poem. The poem hold all the information to locate the chest. First clue critical. Didn’t understand the significance of where they were. went pass / walked passed the other 7 clues.
          The possibility here is not to follow the poem as much as follow the path the clues design, yet not a travel. The twist is even if you have the first two clues [ location ] the next clue is on sight… This is the know beforehand and can move with confidence. But not known what that next clue is till the first clues are satisfied. The answers to the why… only found on site. He keeps his secret there.

          Crazy comes in all shapes and forms… that one is my version. dissect.

          • My thoughts exactly Seeker.
            The first two clues lead you to the starting point.
            Once there one needs to use their imagination to find the other 7.
            Which imho are natural geological formations. Other wise they may not be there in 100 years etc.

          • Seeker your crazy version is very similar to mine, I can not dissect much and only add that when I started to visualize the clues as I saw them in my mind and drew my own map then things started coming together. It also took four trips to the area to eliminate certain possibilities. My theory is a process of elimination until I got to where I need to be, once there then the clue’s started lining up better. Seven clues to work through in a 200 sq. mile area is not an easy task and I felt fortunate it only took 4 trips, but that does not mean my fifth trip is a winner it just means I have more confidence.

          • Seeker:

            “I warned that the path would not be direct for those who had no certainty of the location beforehand, but sure for the one who did.”

            OK, I think I follow you?

            You said— >”The poem hold all the information to locate the chest. First clue critical”….. and, “If we understood how the first two clue work or mean, the 7 clues will fall in place.”….. and “The twist is even if you have the first two clues [ location ] the next clue is on sight… This is the know beforehand and can move with confidence. But not known what that next clue is till the first clues are satisfied.”

            Assuming that the scenario may be correct and clues 3 thru 7 are at the same location as the first two clues:

            1.You cannot take the first two clues out of the “certainty beforehand” qualifier….. Only if there is something within the Poem that tells you, with absolute certainty, that you have solved the first two clues can you go directly to that location.

            2.Even then, there must also be the same telling you clues 3 thru 7 are at that same location.

            3.And then you would still not have certainty of the location beforehand. You still need to go to the location and “solve” the remaining seven clues.

            4.If the scenario were viable, as I’ve asked before, why did searchers go past the next 7 clues?
            Even if they didn’t know they had solved the first two, by you’re scenario, they were still at the location of the last seven. You are saying the last 7 are at the same location as the first two. If “you” are there and can recognize the the next 7, why couldn’t they? If your scenario were correct, they would have no reason to “leave and finish their version of the quest”…….in your scenario, they would have been at all 9 nine clues.

            Sorry buddy, I’m just not sold. And it’s not any crazier that what you, and I, have come up with in the past. 🙂

            read carefully before ya start arguin’!!!! 🙂 

          • Locolobo

            Why is it that one cannot take clues out of certainty beforehand etc., unless the poem says such?

            1.You cannot take the first two clues out of the “certainty beforehand” qualifier….. Only if there is something within the Poem that tells you, with absolute certainty, t

          • chad and JL

            My theory here is all the clues are very close. My assumption is the first stanza combined with the three line in stanza two may be the first clues. No need to go in any canyon down… that is, in part the, significance. But somewhere there is the place to begin. The seven remaining clue must be seen to cleverly match those clues, but in the same location… like JL said,maybe 200 or so feet… I’m thinking closer to 500 total.
            I have a theory that the 7 clues make a path to the chest, however the path is designed in the poem.
            The “not far, but too far to walk” has nothing to do with us traveling.
            It seems two folds… Not far ‘down the canyon’ but too far to walk’ indicating no need to go…simply saying no need to walk there. you are where you need to be.

            I also think that Halt works for the waters that takes it in the canyon down, as change in direction,[ water traveling~not far down ] and halt for us to stop at that point. which may just be the ‘know where to start’ We begin with the first clue, but start after the second clue… the place the water changes course, and we are told to stop… no reason too walk that far. and maybe the reason for no ‘distance of measurements’ to be known.

          • Personally I like it. once in the area one might be able to draw out a map of the hob, etc and see where lines intersect… Ummm

          • Loco, we seem to be typing over each other. My post to chad and Jl explain why That location… It’s all about how you read the poem… Is my reading correct? Well like fenn stated… you won’t know if you have the first clue correct till you retrieve the chest. But I still feel the poem not as straightforwards as most ‘hope’ it is. Just like Q&A’s and comments… we need to read the poem the way he intended, not the way we think it should be. Of course all my and everyone else, opinion.

            The thing here in this theory, most of the clues refer to places… just not what we think they are or even should be. What appears to be simple direction of travel, could be cleverly telling us Not to. And possibly why fenn chose the words he chose. The fun part now is most absolutely believe the clues end in stanza 4… I can argue that may not be so… but that would be way too much to give out.

            The know beforehand is to understand that we need to know WHY this location beforehand and that may not be known till you’re there at the first two clue.. [ yes I said it… botg is a much to solve the poem… that is part of the know beforehand as well ] That really killed me to say it. Coffee’s on me.

            Oh, and if I’m correct… the poem tells exactly where to start. Thing Joe billy bob, jjb for short and who is I

        • In my opinion, he was telling us that no matter where you are from, you can get the first two clues from a good map. I also interpret that to mean the “good map” could be found on the internet, by anyone living just about anywhere.

          He said a map and poem , to interpret that to mean the internet is an assumption MAP and POEM

          • Lisa-
            I agree about the good map and the poem..Forrest never mentioned on-line…
            But if you imagine the little girl in India looking for a good map..she isn’t going to walk over to REI or Big5 and buy one of some place she wants to examine in MT, WY, CO or NM. I imagine physical maps of those areas are difficult to come by in India. But the little girl is likely to have access to the internet where there are plenty of good maps. It doesn’t make any difference where a person lives if they have access to the maps on the internet.
            My point is I think a “good map” is a good map whether it’s paper, silk or pixels. Someone far away who knows how to look at a map and locate a map may find that the internet is the best/only place to get one.
            Forrest didn’t say the good map had to be printed on paper.
            So the little girl in India has just as good of a chance as finding the first two clues in the poem as everyone else who can use the internet and locate a good map.

    • loco-
      I don’t see any conflict at all.
      “I warned that the path would not be direct for those who had no certainty of the location beforehand, but sure for the one who did.”

      In my opinion Forrest is simply stating once again what he has always told us and this statement does not contradict my interpretation at all.

      To begin we have to have somewhere to begin. I don’t know how many folks have said that…but I agree. If you can’t figure out where to begin you are wasting your time. Additionally, you have no certainty. You are simply floundering around as most of us do on this blog.

      I particularly feel this is an important point for folks who decide to start in the middle…maybe they go looking for the Home of Brown first. Forrest has told us this is not going to get you to the chest. That the clues need to be followed in order. (Feel free to look that precise quote up)

      So the first task at hand is to figure out what is the first clue in the poem. In my case, the first clue is “Begin it where warm waters halt”. Others may disagree. But this is where I begin. This is the first clue for me.

      How on earth could I identify a place where warm waters halt, without a map? So I start looking..I can use a map on-line if I want. I run dozens of ideas through my brain about what constitutes Forrest’s place for, where warm waters halt.

      I can also look for hints in his books and many people do. He has said hints are there. So, our person in India checks maps and searches on-line. She probably also looks at the poem and may even have access to Forrest’s books. She arrives at and tosses many ideas but finally lands on one that suits her. So now she has a place to begin. She didn’t have to buy a ticket to the USA to locate that spot. She could do it from any distance. This is the same way that many (most?) of us begin.

      Next, she has to figure out clue number two, which for me is “And take it in the Canyon down, Not far but too far to walk” Again..not everyone’s cup of tea. But it is my second clue. So if we were to believe as I do that the clues are direct and can be followed like directions, each one bringing me closer to the chest, one might assume that the the place to begin must be in close proximity to a canyon I can follow down.

      So, when she was trying to find Fenn’s place “where warm waters halt” she was using the “canyon down” phrase as a qualifier. If there was no canyon that could be followed down, in close proximity, she had to keep looking…until she found one. This helps eliminate many of the places “where warm waters halt”, from the thousand that are out there. This process may have taken a long while.

      The place I landed on for my first clue does have a canyon down and to further make it appear logical, the area is mentioned by forrest in his books..not the exact place mind you, but the area around that exact place. Finally this place is a well understood as a place where two particular bodies of warm water come to a halt. it is visited by half a million people a year (guesstimate) who may marvel at it’s uniqueness, or just get out of their car and stretch their legs, or who camp here for a day or two. Not everyone who stops here understands it’s geographic, semi-uniqueness but many do.

      You can also find it named on-line if you use the correct keywords and search mechanism. Either of these two methods and other methods as well will help a person locate what I have decided are the places Forrest is referring to in his first two clues.

      So you don’t need any special knowledge..unless using a map or the internet is considered “special” knowledge…to me it is not. Even a young person in India could figure this place out, assuming she understood English. (Forrest never said understanding English was a prerequisite by the way but I think it likely is…otherwise how would they read the poem and understand it?) It certainly is not just my place to begin. Many folks use the same WWWH.

      So now our young girl has a place to begin…just as Forrest has insisted we must.
      She is excited and probably getting confident.

      Her next move is to take IT in the canyon down, not far but too far to walk. She can do this by examining the map again. It could be very clear what IT is and which direction is down. She is brimming with confidence now. But at this point her long distance search must stop…because she does not know, and cannot tell by looking at the map, where the home of Brown is located. Home of Brown is not marked on the map. You have to be out there, walking around, to spot the Home of Brown. None the less she has a great deal of confidence. Maybe she has determined what the HOB is but she has to be there to find it.

      So, our young girl in India, or an old guy in Washington can only get the first two clues from a map or reference materials. We have to be there to spot the Home of Brown. But we are confident because we have tried many different places to begin in our research and none were as strong as this one. These two solutions to the first two clues feel right!

      This (in my opinion) is why Forrest says that the young girl in India can only get the first two clues and it is why we move with confidence as we proceed and what he means by having certainty of the location beforehand. In order to get the other seven she will have to walk in the area and find them. They are close by. She is in the right area and knows it. But she cannot find the chest until she gets out to the area and looks around. The clues get increasingly easier to qualify once you are in the correct area…and know you are in the correct area (confidence) and you know what you are looking for. If you do not know you are in the correct area you will not look for, nor recognize the other clues.

      Tear it apart loco-

      • dal, it is my opinion that you have a long way to go.
        I do believe that the HOB is on a map, but you must get the correct map to find it. I don’t have that map in my hand, but I don’t think the girl in India has just as much ability to get her hands on that map as I do. (I do believe I could get that map, and know where to get it from.)
        The question asked included the parameter of “Rocky Mountain map.” A Rocky Mountain map cover too large an area to go into much detail.

      • “I warned that the path would not be direct for those who had no certainty of the location beforehand, but sure for the one who did.”

        LOL!! WOW!!

        Dal, let me begin by thanking you very much for that detailed response. That is awesome!!

        OK, I don’t think I can tear it apart

        I realize now that you and I are using two different interpretations of his use of the word “location”.

        You, are interpreting it to mean a general, or even localized, area where the remaining clues are located.

        I, on the other hand, am interpreting it to mean the specific “location” of the chest. (ie, certainty of the location beforehand will take you directly to the chest.)

        The process you are using, described above, is exactly the process I utilize, when trying to solve from that perspective.

        But, I am attempting to solve all 9 and find the “location” of the chest, while you are using it to find the “location” of the clues. And, I definitely can’t say that I’m correct or your wrong, as I don’t have the chest either. I can see it both ways in the statements he has made and words used.

        So, accepting that I may not be able to identify the clue locations in that manner (but still working that theory); I am also investigating how else the Poem might lead one directly to the chest, with certainty beforehand. (of course, within the constraints he listed on Scrapbook 62.)

        You, and maybe rightly so, are convinced that the clues can only be identified in the field. But, I am as equally convinced that the clues can solved from anywhere and will take one directly to the chest, with certainty beforehand.

        –And, I agree that ” If you do not know you are in the correct area you will not look for, nor recognize the other clues.” But, what in the Poem allows you to know with certainty beforehand that you have the first two clues correct and that you are in the correct location? And, if you knew with certainty beforehand that the clues are localized, wouldn’t you need to make just one trip??

        Oh, on the little girl from India. I agree with Forrest. If all she had was a “map of the Rocky Mts.”, which all Jenny said she had, then she could not get closer than the first two clues. Now whether that means she had to have BOTG a that point, or she needed additional resources, will only be answered when the chest is found, no????

        LOL!! You don’t know how badly I wish I could find something that would concretely prove one method over the other. Seeker and I could quit banging our heads on the wall!!

        Good Luck to You and thanks again. (WOW!!)………….loco 🙂

        • I for one like your approach that you are explaining here. It’s a tough challenge to complete…knowing with a certainty beforehand using TTOTC, GE and/or a good map but I think that’s a challenge that Forrest is capable of devising. Nice thoughts Loco.

          • Thanks fun-d,

            Yes , I agree. I also believe it is a challenge that Forrest is capable of devising.

            I enjoy reading your posts. Like Seeker’s, your comments also lend to great ponderin’!!

            hang in there……….loco

      • Dal, been thinking about our girl in India a lot, she speaks good English but not with a neutral accent! Her family is affluent and she can travel, just needs a visa….anyhow, she likes your thinking but, I’m going to suggest that ‘not far, but too far to walk’, is the third clue and this is why searchers have gotten the first two correct but walked (or drove) past the starting path for the others…..knowing just how far down the canyon is the rub, where to park and do that two trips shuffle. I think HOB is spawning grounds for German Brown Trout, BOG will confirm and off she goes, the rest will be fun at that point…..IPA, no I mean IMO!

      • Wow Dal, I was reading your post and I am on board ( I’m a builder). You did a great job here. I only ? One spot and I don’t really disagree so l will except it at face value. It’s great to hear someone actually put something down feasible. FF is a a smart man. You be failing school and become a fighter pilot unless you’ve had it all figured out all through his young life. School was boring for FF because his learning ability was way beyond the others in his classes. To FF it’s worth a million dollars to see if he can be one of the few in the WORLD that was able to outwit everyone till his demise.
        We are all different but I truly believe that there is only 1 solve that will work. Move over Einstein FF is moving in….

      • Dal, How many trips have you taken since the beginning of the chase? 65?
        I know there are other searchers that have made 10+, 20+, 30+, maybe 40+ or so trips to find the treasure. I am buying what your selling here.
        You appear to have the most experience & it shows in the areas you plan to search in the spring. I would have to say your solved first couple of clues make allot of sense.
        There seems to be allot of little girls (& I don’t just mean girls) from India chiming in on how they solved the poem even though they have obvious disabilities. I respect what they have to offer but there is NO substitution for BOTG. Forrest’s latest Q & A proves this to be a fact.

      • Dal you said So, our person in India checks maps and searches on-line. She probably also looks at the poem and may even have access to Forrest’s books.

        The only thing we are told is the girl has a map and the poem. We are not told she has the internet ,books, or any other way to do research. You are assuming she has those things. We have been told you must decipher what the clues mean. So if HOB is not on a map then little girl has no means to decipher with only a map and the poem. IMO

      • Forrest said if he told us what home of Brown was we would go right to it. So you don’t have to have Boots on ground to find Home of Brown. It must be a known place! I believe the Blaze is something that you will see when u r BOG! IMO

        • Lou Lee,

          I agree with your assessment that the hoB must be a known place. How else could I go right to the chest if told where the hoB is? It still doesn’t help me with the girl from India problem though, as it I have no confidence which clue hoB is.

          If I believe the little girl can’t make it closer than the 1st two clues with her RM map, then I must assume that hoB is:

          A: not one of the first two clues, since she would be able to go right to it.
          B: not the 3rd clue, since, as you said, must me a known place in order to “go right to it”. How can a known place not be on a map? If it is not on the map, how would I know where it is in order to go right to it? *Unless* – the hoB is not located on “her” map.

          Scott W.

  19. Mr. Mike

    It makes no difference at all where in India she stands. India is on a lower latitude than the USA. Draw a line from the bottom of India to the center of the Rockies – Draw a second line from the center of India to the same spot in the USA – draw a third line from the top of India to the same spot in the USA. These three lines are roughly the same length. What moves is when you magnify the spot in the USA. As you move East in the USA, all three lines get ever so slightly shorter. As you move west, they get ever so slightly longer…so clue #1 and #2 make any of the three lines shorter, going west or southwest or northwest makes them longer. Hope I have explained this OK. Good luck with your search.

    I have decided, upon close examination of where my clues fall on my map, my solution holds up even with this new “Girl in India” analysis. YEA!

    • JD,
      How would your diagram look if you were to draw a line using the shortest distance between Kolkata, West Bengal, India and Jackson, WY? So with this in mind what would now be happening as you move around the point in the RMs from east to west?
      Honestly I don’t know. I am lucky to have understood what you have already written.

    • How did you determine India is closer to the west coast? If what you are saying is fact the the statement does not effect me either. I hope we are not headed to the same spot, wouldn’t that be just like winning the lotto only to discover 4 other people did also. I think the odds of that happening are not very good.

    • Sorry got my left and right mixed up. How did you determine the India is closer to the east coast?

  20. Uken2it

    It makes no difference where in India the girl is standing. In relative terms, it makes no difference where in the Rocky Mountains you are standing. The spot in India is “fixed” – IT doesn’t move. The spot in the USA – whether Denver, Jackson, or Helena Montana…Clue #1 and #2 if you move east, you get closer to India. If you move west you get farther away from India.

    ff implied that Clue #1 and #2 – you move East or closer. All other clues, get you no closer to India. Since India is below the USA in latitude, if you go north, northwest or west, you move farther away from India.

    If you move directly south, you move ever-so-slightly closer (about 6′ per 7850 miles distance between Rocky mountains and India) If you go west or southwest, you move farther away from India.

    Hope this helps.

    Good luck with your search


    • JD, uken2it, et al…
      I arrived late to the “Little girl in India” debate and am trying to adequately understand the logic paths being discussed. Would you kindly help me understand your statement?

      For the sake of discussion let’s say clues one and two are solved landing you at HOB (YNP) to follow clues 3-9.

      Are you logistically stating that Forrest implied via LGFI comment that clues 3-9 would require all eastward directional movement to take place in the immediate area of HOB and could not move one any direction than East to be correct??

      • Lia,
        I wish I could offer any help in understanding this. I am confused about east and west now considering this young girl may live where the shortest route may actually come from the east, over the Pacific Ocean.

        • uken2it,

          As far as i can tell (according to google maps)…

          The shortest distance to anywhere in the search area is from the northernmost point in India.

          It is approximately 300 miles shorter than going either the east or west.

          I hope that doesn’t confuse things further.

          All IMO….

          • And since it’s not clear weather to go east or west (or north), that is why he included “There are many disabled people who are deeply into maps and geography, and they are having a lot of fun.”

            Because you need the map/geography to determine just how close little girl could get and which way takes her closer/further away from clue #2

        • India bisects the same longitude lines as the Rockies and therefore you need to know both locations before you know whether going west or east is the shorter route and whether the girl is closer to clue #1-2 or clue #3-9. This applies even if you are tunneling through the earth.

          Without knowing both locations it’s impossible to make the statement Forrest made. There must be another explanation since Forrest is an experienced pilot and would know longitude lines and why 75 E in India is the same longitude as -105 W in the Rockies. (same for 105 W to 115W is the same as 75 E to 65 E )

          Even if the clues are lined up north/south you still need both locations because Western Montana is ~1,000 km closer to Eastern India than New Mexico. This is why airlines fly an arc and avoid flying directly east or west. You can use your hands on a globe to prove it’s true.

          A random girl from India doesn’t give enough information to be used to determine which clue is nearer to the girl as her location within India would change it.

          • Indy,
            After reading your reply which in essence states f cannot mean for us to measure distance since the data are not there to support a conclusion. If the distance cannot be measured it must be something other than distance between the clues, i.e. clue 3 is further away from the little girl in India. All of which leads me to be inclined to understand f to mean clues 3 thru 9 requires the searcher to be ‘in’ the rocky mountains, physically present.

            hope this makes sense

      • lia,

        This is what I think and is completely my opinion.

        Nobody said the little girl was stationary…just that she was in India.

        Just for an example…lets say my Clue 1 & 2 take me to Jackson Wy (just an example)

        If she was in Kalkata (~7700 miles to clue & 2). Nothing in the question or answer said she couldn’t travel in India to get closer. It just that she was in India.

        So she could travel to New Deli (~7400 miles to clue #2).

        If clue # 3 was in Yellowstone (~7334 miles) she could get closer to than Clue #2.

        So…….That means clue #3 MUST be south of Jackson (in this example).

        This being true, east/west is less relevant than north/south. And i think it works throughout the search area.

        All measurements according to Google Maps, and again all just my opinion.

        • Just to make this complete if she was in Ahmedabad(west India), she would still have to travel to New Deli (North) to get closer to Clue #2.

          Ahmedabad to Clue#2 ~7724

          New Deli to Clue #2 ~7400

          According to Google…and IMO.

          • why does where she is ( India) have any bearing on anything? Forrest didnt pick the question Jenny did.

        • It doesn’t matter if you go north because India is closer to Montana than New Mexico. (go over the north pole). Going south might make a difference, but the math is very complex for the shape of the possible bounded area and I can’t believe Forrest worked all the math out.

          Some future math major just might do their master’s thesis on the “little India girl” problem. lol.

  21. The disabled comment, is reaffirmaing that all you need is the poem… as he has repeatedly said, IMHO. They are having fun solving the poem.

  22. Don’t know that I know what the “disabled comment” means, nor your lasat sentence “They are having fun solving the poem.” Enlighten me please.

  23. thoughts on the India conundrum – Jenny asks multiple questions in Q5 and imo, Forrest does his best to answer all the questions in 3 sentences.
    1. Jenny points out that a lot of people don’t live in close proximity to the rocky mtns. – Forrest answers I wish I had another treasure to hide in the Appalachians.
    2. Jenny asks if people who cannot physically search for the treasure should be deterred from searching. – Forrest answers that many disabled people are having fun solving the poem…. meaning that you should not be deterred from solving the poem simply because you can’t physically go on a search.
    3. Jenny poses the India Girl question…a girl only has the poem and a map but cannot physically search. Forrest answers, (imo) she will only solve the first 2 clues. IMO, Forrest is stating you need an additional resource to solve clue #3. I don’t think this necessarily means BOTG. It could be a history book, a geography book, ect. Also, assuming searchers need to solve the clues in order, I think a map will still be helpful in solving clues 4-9.

    • KG,

      On you point about the girl in India, you mentioned she had the poem and a map. It is my understanding that the map was local to just the RM. Therefore, to me, it means she has the wrong map. It’s not a good map, as the map we need is so called.

      I don’t think we need anything other than a good map and the poem. Why? Because we were told so by the author of the poem.

      I also don’t understand why fellow searchers are hung up on her being in India is the reason she can’t get closer than the first two clues. IMO, your location on the earth has nothing to do with your ability to solve the poem. Why would it? We are all using the same tools.

      My laptop sits on a table while I try to solve the poem. The location of the table has no relevance.

      IMO, of course.

      Scott W.

  24. Some strange assumptions …

    Upthread, poster voxpops was asked why he thinks he has the search narrowed down to 2 feet. He responded: “a combination of coordinates and satellite images.” Voxpops later clarifies: “Are you aware that satellite images change over time? The improvement in detail in many quadrants since the chest was first hidden is remarkable … I’m sorry that you find my certainty upsetting.”

    To voxpops and other posters … it’s not your certainty that bothers me. It’s your assumptions.

    Coordinates ??? Satellite images ???

    FYI … not everyone in the U.S. has internet access.

    What about that Texas redneck who just lost his job, can’t afford cable, has a wife and 6 kids. He jumps in his old pickup truck and heads for the Rockies with nothing but the poem and a good map. You actually think Forrest Fenn didn’t think of this guy? FF said >>>> “I tried to think of everything”.

    So only we who have internet access have a chance at finding the treasure chest?

    If your solution requires the use of coordinates and/or satellite images, I suggest that your solution may be incorrect.

    Sometimes our assumptions are so close to us we can’t see them. 🙂


    • Ken, my solution does not require satellite images – those were a bonus, after I extracted the coordinates from the poem. All that’s required is a good map and the poem.

          • I’m only asking because I’ve seen you posting about a solution since November. I think this is the first time you’ve said you got latitude/longitude out of the poem (I could be mistaken, I haven’t read every post). You don’t have to answer if you don’t want to, but I have to ask:

            If you can get latitude/longitude out of the poem, that seems so precise that nothing else matters? How could you have missed it in earlier trips, and why would updated satellite images help?

            I’m not trying to debunk your solve. I’m just really curious.

          • Hi Jeremy, thanks for the question. Boy, you put me on the spot with that one! You asked:

            “If you can get latitude/longitude out of the poem, that seems so precise that nothing else matters? How could you have missed it in earlier trips, and why would updated satellite images help?”

            I was really stupid on my last trip. Previously, I had teased part of the coordinates out of the poem, but had failed to reveal the second part (they’re very well hidden 😉 ). On the last trip, I ignored those original numbers, even though I had by then discovered a “path” that would lead to the second set of numbers. Why? Because I saw something on the ground a few miles away that was such a coincidental and monumental distraction, that I abandoned my original premise. Also, I hadn’t yet extracted the verification that exists in the poem.

            When I came home, I almost quit the chase. But in late November, all the missing info, including verification, became clear. I was kicking myself – even more so when I realized I’d have to wait until the snow cleared before going again.

            So now I have everything I need, except the weather. It’s SO frustrating!

            As for the satellite images; once I’d pulled the final solution together, I checked the full coordinates and saw something that pulled me up short. It is such a compelling image – and does allow you to fix the search position to just a couple of feet – that I “know” it has to be correct (IMO, of course). The fact that the images are so clear allowed me to see quite definitively what was on the ground (and no, you can’t see the chest). A few years ago, I don’t think that would have been possible (fuzzy, grainy images were the norm in non-populated regions back then).

            I’m not one of those who will whine about somebody beating me to it if I come home empty handed. I’m fully aware I could be wrong, and will accept that with as much good grace as I can muster. But on the other hand, after 4 years of always being a little unsure of my solutions, after November I completely ceased second-guessing and reanalyzing. Everything is as clear as daylight now, and it’s a great feeling. 🙂

          • At some future time I would like to know how you came up with coordinates from the poem. I have noted a couple of anomalies that pointed in the direction of coordinates.

          • Chad and ShannKay, the coordinates and method of extraction must remain my secret until I have been to the location. I should point out that you need to know what FF’s driving at before you can effectively trawl for the numbers, and so you need to understand both the logic of the poem and the way it traverses the geography.

          • I am in no hurry. Ya see my disability often leaves me in a state where I am forced to be an armchair searcher. My chances of setting boots to the ground depend mainly on what my va doctors can figure out. So far nodda. So I content myself with the wonderful stories other post here.

          • This certainly is a great place for stories! I hope those docs can get you moving in time for the search season.

          • I appreciate the good vibes, my condition warrants a climate with consistent warm weather. So I have decided to move west. I purchased a fixer upper just south of the mojave desert. The place needs a lot of work, nut I am not complaining. It will be an adventure for me and hopefully some relief from these bouts of weather related pain.


          • Thanks for replying. If I’m understanding correctly, eventually you were able to get precise latitude/longitude coordinates out of the poem (after your most recent trip), and the updated satellite images only help confirm them. Would that be accurate? If so, you would definitely deserve the prize. I don’t know if you’re right, but that would be pretty amazing. Good luck and I applaud you waiting for safer weather.

          • Yes, Jeremy, your summation is accurate. And thanks very much for your good wishes. I hope your studies bear fruit, too.

  25. Hi all! I just received the books a week ago. 1st post.
    Been reading as much as I can to catch up. Have a few ideas I haven’t seen much on, if any information. I don’t feel the need to disclose these ideas just yet.

    If the TC is ever found and we are still here to see the solve , it will be either 1- AHHHH That was so easy!! Or….2- What the heck??!! Those clues only make sense to FF. Such as, if the HOB brown refers to a girl he had a crush on in the 9th grade named Sally Brown. If he never told anyone about her, then how would we know that she was the HOB solve??

    Anyway. I’m in Ohio. The closest I’ve ever been to the wilderness overnight was in a tent my back yard. And the most frightened I’ve ever been by a creature of nature was the big brown snake that was following me down a dirt path to my fishing spot when I was 13. When I heard something behind me, I looked back and saw this big brown snake following me about 6 feet back. I got so scared and took off running. It didn’t matter though. No Matter how fast I ran or how far I ran, that fkr was right behind me! Then the last time I turned to look, I realized that snake was actually a nice size tree twig that was wrapped up in fishing line that was caught on my shoe !!

    Yeah folks! !! I am the kind of guy who is gonna solve this thing. I figure after 5 years and it hasn’t been found, then I’m in no hurry to end up going nowhere. I’m going to have several months to study due to upcoming shoulder surgery & recuperation time.

    I will not be critical or hateful in any posts or responses. I look forward to….The Thrill !!

    • Welcome CJNick, try not to get to sucked in! lol! Seems to be a good past time for folks healing and recovering…funny story about the snake!

    • Hello CJNick. Welcome aboard! Hope you enjoy the thrill of the chase. My advice is to have a lot of fun and be sure to have a big bottle of Tylenol at the ready. 🙂

    • Welcome cjnick
      Have fun be sure your posting on the right post (as there are a lot) go to the srapbooks and read them 149 very good and useful info. Oh yea, Becareful of the BLACKENED hole it can suck you in and get you totally confused.
      Where’s SPRING?

  26. @Seeker & @Dal,

    If it is as ya’ll postulate, and I’m not saying you’re correct, then one of these statements has to be false:

    *“Until someone finds the treasure they will not know for sure that they have discovered the first clue.”

    *“I warned that the path would not be direct for those who had no certainty of the location beforehand, but sure for the one who did.”


    You guys say that solving the first two clues will put you at the “location” of the remaining clues, with “certainty beforehand?….Yet, Forrest states that you cannot know for sure that you have discovered the first clue, until someone finds the treasure?

    There is only one way that both of those statements can be true, and neither of your theories match it!!! 🙂 🙂

    ?????????????????? (seeker, you are throwing everything but the kitchen sink in your posts again and ur makin’ my dam head hurt, again!!! 🙂 )

    • There’s always the third way. You only go with confidence once you’ve solved all nine clues and not before. To solve all nine requires many trips to the Rockies to figure out clue #3-#5. (#6-9 are done at home.) Arrange the numbers any way you like as they are simply guesses.

      IMO. I don’t have the chest and only dream of having the right wwwh some day.

    • loco,

      Your quote: *“Until someone finds the treasure they will not know for sure that they have discovered the first clue.”

      Never heard that one and I though I knew them all. Mind sharing the source?

    • Yep , loco you’re correct. Sorry for the head ache, take two acetaminofenn…

      Those quote tell a lot, But I think I need to explain how my mind works about the poem itself… but warning, should you enter, bring protective armor it can get hairy in there.

      While most read the poem as attempting to find nine clue, I read the poem as simply “A” poem. What is the purpose for the poem, why did fenn ‘choose’ this avenue to present clue. If it only for direction to the chest… then I’ll never find it or even have a chance to find it. “Direction” in this poem is like the tree of life, with so many branches and we are looking for, not only a single leaf, but a small dot on that leaf.

      There are so many components within the poem, other than 9 clues, that need to be utilize imo. The trick is to not “over complicate” or “over simplify the clues” { you know those comments as well as most }. I’m attempting to understand ” A ” poem, and not so much clues within.
      The difference between treasures and trove is an example of that. Treasures are possessions that are important/value to one. “One”, in this case is ” i ” .

      Then we have trove, a thing of no ownership, and of value. Now we have value… a trove value, is the gold in this case.
      But in the case of the treasure, the value can mean different thing… A roll of string, memories, love ones, a Dick Tracey decoder ring etc. But we now have to know who or what ” I ” may be or represent. “I” is normally knowledge of self… however I can be a tangible item as well, a possession. If I call my favorite car Isabel, it is important to me because I named it, my treasure. If I call it ‘ i ‘ for short it still means the same.

      That is just a small example of they way I { me } reads ” A ” poem, and that is all poems. What is the meaning of the poem?
      I do the same with word such as cold and warm… I don’t believe Cold means temperature as winter or warm as in heat of water.
      I look at the comment ” know where to start ” and the poem’s “begin it where” as two different entities.

      So it is difficult for me to post my thoughts when attempting to explain, “places” the poem refers to etc. Because I don’t read the poem as simply directions to follow.
      ” Unless your goal is to keep it simple” ~ I have to understand the poem as a poem first. “difficult but not impossible”.

      You may say this is “over complicating” the poem. I’ll say fenn gave very good examples of what over complicates means, and I’ll argue most seem to “over simplify” the poem by only reading it as directional only. Looking for a single WWWH is that example… and one fenn used as an example.

      Your example of “in the wood” that you told me many moons ago, is a good example of how I read a poem and bring it to a what may refer to as a location. and not over simplifying as just meaning a forest or wooded area.

      First and foremost… I think we needs to understand the “poem” as a poem, long before searching for clues within it. As fenn stated; the poem has done it’s job…
      “It’s not who you are [poem], it’s who they think you are [ what he can make us see what we don’t see]” ~ in this case The “you” is the poem.

      Twisting and Bending…. to make it work.

      Welcome to my World… lol

      Apologies for the head aches.

      • well said Mike, too much about the nine clues, solve the poem…I see it with different levels, without it getting too complicated. The clues will reveal themselves. If you are in focus to the way he represents different things, then you will figure out the support info and go right to the chest. With confidence.
        In my opinion, there is even support info that tells you if you have the correct clues, so solve the poem and let the cards fall where they may…

      • LOL Seeker,

        After all this time, no apologies necessary. I have thoroughly enjoyed my time here and especially enjoyed trying to understand what the heck you post. As I ‘ve said in the past, your posts and questions foster a great deal of deep thoughts. And, I’ve looked forward to bantering with you as well.

        Good Luck in your Search…..I truly hope someone finds the dam thing before my time runs out!!! 🙂

  27. WOW what an interesting site! So many thoughts, so many ideas. WOW.

    Regarding location of the clues. Some gravitate to the idea that clues 3-9 are all at one location. INTERESTING to say the least. We all have our own “solves”.

    Good luck to all – None of us will know until we hold the chest in our hands.

    For me: Clue #1 takes me nowhere, but “in there”
    Clue #2 – Lines 1,2 and 3 of Stanza #2. I travel 10 miles from wwwh to hoB
    Clue #3 = hoB
    Clue #4 = All of stanza #3 From hoB – meek I travel 2.5 miles. From meek -Water High, I travel 6.2 miles. This takes me to the general area of the TC.
    Clues 5 – 9 take me to the exact location. I travel no more than 500′ at this final location.

    Just my opinion of course. Again, good luck to all

    • My in there takes me to a certain spot, clue 2 I accept but we start to vary considerably after that. It is very interesting how so many different variations occur from one small poem. I assume that is why it took so long for FF to finalize. May possible be the most complex poem to date. I would be curious if the finder of the TC could create an equally complex poem and perhaps continue the search else where.

  28. Good morn all searchers,
    I’ve been reading all of the talk about this little from India and i decided to look into something. Before you say something yea i have had my share of solves and my money and botg have both been worn down some but I’m heading back asap for another round so yes i have put in my dues. It’s been 3 yrs now and a number of trips but the other day after reading the comment about playing with words and then setting back and smiling it got to me. FF has done just that. I think Everytime someone is getting close FF offers up another play on words answer to someone. Then just like India, yes India FF now has all of us second guessing ourselves and disagreeing with each other while he sets back and smiles knowing the TC is safe again. India, Germany, Vietnam, Russia. Who care!!! Let’s get back to the Rocky Mountains and the 4 states we are dealing with and show FF that he can no longer play with our heads. It’s fun but now it’s OUR TIME TO CLAIM THE PRIZE. Let’s talk solving this thing. Anyone of us can be the one.

    • Hallelujah! Couldn’t have put it better, Tim. If all the energy expended on trying to work out the answer to the little girl from India question was put into solving the poem’s clues…

  29. Everyone is talking about TGFIP. What about Question #4, it seems to be revealing that it is near West Yellowstone (and the area around there) where he spent his summers growing up since we know its not in Texas.

    4Q) You have commented many times your chest of gold is hidden somewhere special to you. That the moment you thought about hiding the chest, you knew right where you were going to conceal it. I’m sure you have other places you consider special. Would you be willing to share some of these, and why you find them so?

    No other hiding place was ever seriously considered Jenny. There are places near where I grew up that are dear to me, just like everyone else. If I had it all to do over again the results would be the same, and I can’t think of anything I would change. I feel fortunate that my poem said exactly what I wanted it to say.

    The first reading makes it clear that the hiding place is there, but is he just saying that other special places are there. Just throwing out food for thought. All IMO.

    • If Fenn has a secret place that he admires, then most likely he isn’t going to tell anyone where that place is. He talks about Yellowstone over and over. That tells me it’s not there. Yellowstone is probably just as special as Santa Fe and Temple to him.
      If you have a secret, and you don’t want anyone to know, then you dont write a book about it. You hide it in a book that you wrote. Then you create a decoy like Yellowstone, because Yellowstone is special to everyone. So everyone will have no problem thinking it is in Yellowstone.
      That is how you start brewing a perfect storm.
      IMO there is no possible way the treasure is in Yellowstone. However I do think Yellowstone holds a lot of significance in some clues. Especially the last one.

      Forrest isn’t going to tell you straight up where his special place is.. You are going to have to figure that out on your own, by using what he has told you..

      • Correct, he will not have talked about it he has only given hints and clues if it was ever mentioned in a general way there would be many looking in that area even if they did not understand the poem.. there are no short cuts, it will have to be figured from the poem.

        • I agree, JL.

          One of the things that FF has said – and appears to be long-forgotten – is that people might be surprised at where the chest is to be found (paraphrase). That might be something worth thinking about if you’re looking in the Yellowstone area or Santa Fe (even though I accept he could be talking about the immediate vicinity rather than the general area, but I don’t think so).

          • On further reflection, I think he’s talking about both the immediate and the general areas.

    • Not Obsessed,
      I took pause at 4Q too. I see a distinction between special place and dear places. Special place allows for the place to not be dear to f, not necessarily heart felt but special in other ways such as a search site he visited or a location where something historical happened like a battlefield.

  30. All the following is my opinion, and opinion only. The poem is everything you need to find the chest. I think it is easier to try to decipher it rather than trying to assume what it is someone says. If a person looking to find the chest does not see the specific place where she, or he has to go then the clues are rather difficult to follow. That’s why, as I had said before, there are two ways to decipher the poem. The uncertain way, which to me is following the clues on a map and hoping I am following the clues correctly, and there is the more certain way, and that is to follow the instructions of the poem, and go to the starting point, by then the clues make more sense because the searcher has been given exact,precise directions on where to begin. I hardly doubt someone will find the treasure without following the clues precisely, but do you really thing the start of the poem is the beginning, or does the searcher have to find the place where to start and then follow the clues? It is not that you have to follow the clues precisely, but you have too follow the clues precisely. As always this is my opinion and opinion only. RC.

    • I believe you’re correct, RC, but left out one part. There are precise directions to the start AND the end points. And, yes, there is the less certain path that follows the map, with many places where you could trip.

    • I can afford to travel to the RMs but don’t want to go broke by traveling many times I think I have a solve for clues 1&2. I would like to know that one could be certain they have Clues 1&2 before traveling but I believe f has told us you cannot be certain until you find the chest. He did say that right?

      • If funds are limited, as they are for me, too, I would say wait until you have a more complete solution. Although others will disagree and say that all can be deduced after solving clue two and going to that location, physically, no-one has ever managed to do it that way in five years. Logically, to me, it makes little sense that the architecture of the poem is such that you only need to solve two clues and then everything else will be magically revealed at that place.

  31. Imho, we are making a mountain out of a molehill with this GFI thing.
    To quote: Arthur Conan Doyle: “Once you eliminate the impossible, whatever remains, no matter how improbable, must be the truth.”

    • I agree. Forrest gets asked a question and makes a cryptic response – as usual. He sits back and smiles as everyone dissects every letter and space trying to find a hidden clue. Even if we knew exactly what FF meant with that response, I don’t believe it would get anyone an inch closer to finding Indulgence. It’s just another distraction.

      • Thank you for posting that Jeremy, I’m a big user of deductive reasoning and was unaware of the term Abductive Reasoning. I see value in both. Abductive Reasoning seem best used to develop ideas or theorys not based of facts but probability. In the chase it seems like little facts are known when it comes to the clues in the poem and Abductive Reasoning can be used to create ideas and theorys that one didn’t have before. It seems like in one way or another we are all using Abductive Reasoning.

        • Right. Relative to the Chase, I’m not sure how much Deductive Reasoning can actually be used, if any. Doesn’t mean I won’t stop trying 🙂 Whenever someone says “it makes logical sense that ____”, or “I deduced ____”, what they are really using is Abductive Reasoning (and some are using it better than others — many are using it better than I).

          • It does seem easy to get them confused and now that you point it out most are ueing abdeductive reasoning opposed to deductive reasoning and don’t understand that they are doing it. It does mean most everyone are merely making speculations with no cold hard fact. The only way we are going to get cold hard facts are from Fenn and I don’t see him given many out.

          • “It seems logical to me that a deep thinking treasure searcher could use logic to determine an important clue to the location of the treasure.” — Fenn statement.

            So the real question is how does HE use the term “logic”? Most likely we’re talking about an informal use, but it may be that this one of the few actual A guarantees B uses in the Chase.

          • Deep thinking, analyze, and plan…

            So far I have analyze my plan and logically came to the conclusion, I’m in deep s…

      • From time to time I work on cars, now keep in mind I am not a trained mechanic.
        ( self taught ) When diagnosing a cars issues I have to take steps to find the cause of the problem. Observation, research & testing. Example: My daughter’s car was overheating. She told me she had found a thermostat in the glovebox. Logic said its the thermostat, so I took it and replaced it. That did not fix the issue. Several days later my daughter calls me and informs me that she had to have the car towed home because it overheated again and stopped running.
        Soo I looked it over again. At the time it seemed that the water pump had gone bad, research supported this notion. Removing the belt and testing the bearings confirmed it. While removing the water pump I encouraged my daughter to watch. My goal was to teach her the how too’s of car repair. When I got the pump off, low and behold I find that two plastic tubes that connect the water pump to the engine block and the heater core are toast. Replaced them and the overheating issue vanished.

        In essence a process of elimination found the answer. My out of pocket costs was about 50 bucks vs 500.oo for a shop to look it over and repair it.
        Observation, research, testing.

        • Right, I do something similar in my day job.

          Again, I really enjoy reading Doyle but what I’ve always found problematic with this quote is that what we’re describing is Inductive Reasoning to fix the problem (a series of inferences not necessarily guaranteed), and then when we think it’s fixed we rely on Abductive Reasoning to explain why the car is now working (I replaced the part, makes sense to me!).

          We haven’t -really- eliminated the impossible, and it’s not -really- “deduction” we are doing. Something may have escaped our notice in the observation/testing phase and our explanation after the fact may be wrong (maybe it was some other issue and the symptoms just when dormant).

          Big fan, though. Especially of the Sherlock on BBC.

        • Chad, no disrespect intended – I applaud those of us that actually take on a mechanical problem. (I do work with my hands for a living.) However, unless there was more to your “deductions” that you didn’t share, you were simply following a probability tree and throwing parts at the situation until it was resolved.

          Diagnosis requires an underlying knowledge of how the cooling system works to know when it is not performing as designed.

          I am not picking on you per se, so please don’t take it personally, but to bring out and share the difference between looking at the whole system to determine what is amiss and taking an educated guess as to what might resolve the problem.

          So how does that line of thinking help us as “Fenn Followers”? It is my opinion that knowing Mr. Fenn better will help us understand his poem, to then be able to deduce there Indulgence sets.

          Good luck in your search, and again, good job fixing your daughter’s car!

          • No offence taken. Keeping in mind I am not trained to do such work, I missed one the tubes because it was partially hidden behind the water pump. The other tub was viewable and did not show signs of leakage. If the water pump had not gone bad I would never seen the hidden tube and it’s condition. My understanding of automotive cooling systems is rudimentary. Hehehe how I miss the cars of the 70’s. Educated guess; some. Process of elimination. By all means if it means cost savings.

      • @Jeremy P & Count,
        Thanks for posting the abductive reasoning link. Very interesting. Can’t say that I fully understood the formulas, but imo Forrest is a very deep thinker and trained logician. Just guessing that many of us are either too narrow or too formal in our approaches in building solutions to the poem. The one who solves his poem will perhaps make inferences from observations about ff which lead to the best possible explanation of possibilities.

        Interestingly, the expression for subjective/abductive logic mirror symbols and ideas in the poem and books. Examples.. ‘ll, w/omega, and a donut or tire shape. Won’t help me solve the poem, but I enjoyed learning what intuitive, good guessers are called “abductive” as they form logical hypothesis testable through informed trials. AkA failed searches. Ha! LOL 🙂

  32. I’m going to whisper my opinion because I don’t get reactions from y’all…
    Dal, exactly what I said.
    The uncertainty of not knowing our destination til the chest is found, is…there IS no certainty in life. It’s a crap shoot, unless you are in tune with F, his thinking and essence.
    What is my version of HOB, may not be yours. I feel it is a spiritual place for F, or he wouldn’t want his last breath to be taken near there. (“If I told you, you’d walk right to it.”)
    So, logically, rule out cabins,, buildings and general “homes” as we see the word “home” etc. HOB IS A THING NOT OF PEOPLE. This leaves nature, in its raw, the most spiritual thing of all.
    A place of comfort. A place of meditation, wonder, and worthy of respect. That’s why it has been passed by, searchers don’t see the world as F does. They don’t understand the importance of where they are at.
    It’s (HOB) is a place where he wants his last breath to be released and set free.
    That’s why it’s not on a map. It’s clue #3, and you have to be there to experience it.

    • Hey Donna,
      I see HOB as clue #3 as well. My logic tells me not to rule out a man made structure but also tells me it is unlikely a man made structure. I don’t think HOB is the place to take his last breath, it’s just too far away from the last clue. IMO
      So where you headed this spring?
      I know your getting high up on the list of searchers with many searches.

      • N. NM./ S. CO.
        A VERY Spiritual place lies in this area, well…spiritual to ME. A place of wonder, respect and awesomeness.
        It has clue #1 & #2!
        Can’t say anymore, but you Def can’t be meek to search it!
        Thanks for your interest, Jake. I enjoy your comments and enthusiasm!

      • Hey Jake,
        Allow me to play with your comment for a moment… hope ya don’t mind.
        HOB clue # 3… seems to be straightforwards enough, logical to order of Begin it where…
        Yet Do we even consider that the gone alone apart as a clue? or the ” and’ hint of riches knew and old as as clue of reference to understand what to look for as a clue? I mean, why would fenn say “and hint to anything if it was not to be understood.
        Now let me jump to hoB is is just too far away from the last clue… Again looking at lines in the poem I can relate to that. Yet, following your thoughts the last clue would be at or near the blaze… if that is a correct assumption. The why is there a question with an answer within the poem? do we not try to utilize the answer in some way… as a clue? Is it simply just age?

        Now we have in the first stanza “gone alone ‘in there'” and in the last stanza “and ‘in the wood'”. are these places related? making the first possible clue the same as the last possible clue? or the same place.

        I’m an truly trying to wrap my head around the directional method of botg, or point to point method… with only using the 9 lines thought process. not downing here… just an understanding. If this happens to be the correct way, it seems to me that, half the poem is not needed.

        Not all the word will help lead to the chest but should not be discounted.
        The words are deliberate.
        The critical first clue.
        The poem seem like simple words, but he worked on them.
        [ and other comments – the above are paraphrasing, for time, I don’t have time to cut and paste all them.. sorry]

        Why just use 9 line out of 24? or are we just simply not understand something about the poem. This reminds me of a person standing on a street looking skywards and not saying a word… Everyone start to do the same with out understanding why they are. Even after not seeing anything out of the norm, they continue to gaze… There must be something there is this person and all the rest believe there is .. Right?

        • If I am understanding your reasoning correctly seeker. That is exactly why I have taken a fresh look at the poem. For a sometime as I did research I felt I was chasing my tail. Forrest has stated that hardest part of the is solving the first clue. Now seeing that some have solved the first two clues I have this feeling that
          Current discussion about having BOTG may lead someone to the next solve being clue # 3. Imho all it is going to take now is that someone sitting at the point of the two solved clues and looking around. All of this begs the question: Do I have the first two clue solves correct?

          • Chad,
            This may fall in ” know beforehand” Are all the clues place? if not and reading the poem line by line as clues starting from “begin” line 3 ” not far, but too far to walk” doesn’t sound like a place… no distance seems to be mentioned, not even a true direct. In the literal sense, down can mean any direction. Yet NFBTFTW is in order to be clues 3, a non place, possibly.

            Another way of looking at the 3rd clue is, “can not get closer”. Should the 3rd clue be a place… maybe it actually is a place farther away from your goal… the chest. And if so, why do we need to move away? Is this the significance of the important first clue?

            I starting to believe that the ‘know beforehand’ comment is not all about knowing each clue up front… let me rephrase… Know what they refer to. But we should be confident to understand that once at the area… we know how to understand why we’re there.. and capable of moving on with that confidence to solve the poem.

            It may mean nothing more than understanding the whole poem to be utilized in the field to locate the proper clues there, and not know all the answers to the clues upfront. The confidence and know beforehand are/is the first clue[s].

            Well, maybe….

          • Let’s examine this for a moment.

            “Begin it where warm waters halt
            And take it in the canyon down,
            Not far, but too far to walk.
            Put in below the home of Brown.”

            How about: I have my WWWH. I start driving along a road and park my car below the Hob. ” Suggestive of a hill or mountain ” This is where I start walking and thinking while looking around. ” From there it’s no place for the meek ” suggestive of a wilderness area ” See what I am getting at??

          • Hunting, trapping, fishing is permitted at certain times of the year.
            Unless it is a wildlife preserve.

        • Seeker, I don,t mean to interject, but a good question deserves an answer. You said”Why just use 9 line out of 24? or are we just simply not understand something about the poem.”
          In my brain and I have never been accused of being a genius there are more then a few things that I think the majority are not understanding about the poem. I don’t read anything about them and they are not being talked about. This does not mean that others don’t know, just that they aren’t talking about it. I cant say more without negatively impacting my chances for the solve and will not know for a couple of months yet if I am correct. I may have already said too much but I know you have asked this before. IMO

      • Seeker,
        First I have to tell you that my solves are very simple & straight forward.
        The first thing I had done was to see which lines in the poem left an unknown.
        Yes the first stanza has one unknown to my thinking “in there” Where?
        “Treasures bold” Yea it’s bold alright.
        “keep my secret where” Where again?
        “hint of riches new and old” Items in the chest, I believe.
        The unknown in the first stanza is where did he go alone?
        I think this is what you have to figure out using the nine clues.
        I don’t see any clues in the first stanza using a simple straight forward solve, but of course there is a chance that I oversimplified the poem.
        The poem itself is obviously pretty difficult to figure out using this method as well.
        Like F said, there are hundreds of places WWWH & most are north of SF. Or something like that. In this statement I believe F is telling us where to begin with the first clue.

        Yes, I think the last clue is the blaze & when you have figured out what the blaze is, you can get the TC & leave quickly, probably because your going to be wet & cold.

        In the wood, to me is just being in the wilderness, sorta like the opposite of being in the hood.

        Some of the poem is not needed: 1st stanza, 5th & 6th stanza. I see these as having no clues whatsoever. They appear to be straight forward to me.
        Sorry, it’s just not in my blood to over complicate things. I like to keep things simple & straightforward & I think F likes the simple life himself. All my op.

        OK, I am standing on the hood of someones car & looking straight up at the UFO’s flying by & there are a few others joining me but most are looking down at their cell phones while walking towards the cliff.

        • Jake, I’m no knocking 9 line method, I just don’t get it.
          One you point to and dismissed as a possible clue… In the wood.
          By definition means petrified wood… something that had been around for a long time, took time to naturally be made, will last a long time.
          The chest is hidden and should not be stumbled across, So in the wood~ as petrified, and I’ll add ‘petrified forest’ may just be the last clue to bring you to a 10″ size chest… secreted out of sight, in a place that will last the test of time,
          and fits both “Gone alone in there” [ petrified forest] and “In the wood” [petrified definition of wood and why not plural] It may also indicated The No place for the meek < petrified, not dangerous.

          That is just using the first stanza and the last stanza… two stanzas that most dismiss as not necessary. I could add that old and new may also hint to this process of becoming wood to petrified wood as well. So you see my point, i hope… how an easy, not complicate theory can work throughout the poem using all all the stanzas and flow throughout the poem as a whole.

          If ya don't like that one… I have a great solution involving Mars and why the chest may not be found for 1000 years or even 10,000 years… lol.

          • Seeker,
            It’s most understandable you don’t get it. Most by far do not get me or what I say here or there.
            Allot of my reasoning to decide what the 9 clues in the poem are from this radio interview which you might have heard. I put allot of weight in this one & could make or break your solve. F already told us the blaze is a clue, so do the math after listening to the program & tell me what is left over to be a clue?

            Sometimes a poem is not just a poem – CBC
            Mar 8th 2013:

  33. A thought on the little girl in India: the question was:
    Can a little girl in India, who speaks good English, but only has your poem and a map of the US Rocky Mountains, work out where the treasure is?

    The US ….so perhaps the reason that map wouldn’t work is because it doesn’t show the Canadian Rocky Mountains.

    FF was surprised that Canada wasn’t in the highlighted area on the map in TFTW. He says bumping the edges and talks of borders a lot. Perhaps some of the places the clues reference are across the border but then bring you back into Montana. And the little girls map doesn’t show Canada. Think glacier national park. The PEACE PARK. GO IN PEACE!

    • Hello Kat. I understand your reasoning, but I’d like to comment about it. If what you say is true, do you suggest the first two clues are starting in Canada? If this is true, and the little girl only has a map of the U.S. Rocky Mountains, where would she know where to start? Previous knowledge of Canada? We do not know this to be true. There seems to be more to this that meets the eyes. Possibly a hint at new and old?

      • No, start in Montana, follow the clues into Canada and come back into Montana following the other clues.

        • Where would she stop in Canada with only a U.S. Rocky Mountain map? Or do you suggest it begins in Montana, goes to only the U.S./Canadian border and back down?

          • Pdenver,

            Dang… I saw it, but with five question and answers to work with, I never ‘saw’ it.

            Map of the “U.S.” Rockies… Not only am I’m working on my one last burnt brain cell, Apparently I’m going blind as well. Of course she can not get closer… It may not be a wrong map or more different maps are needed… It’s just not a complete map.

            Dang, this is U.S. history all over again.

      • Seeker, you are welcome. I’m glad someone understood what I was saying. Very glad that it was you!

  34. Trying to guess longitude and latitude for the GFI is a complete waste of time. To do so implies that Ms. Kile knows where the treasure is in relation to India.

  35. I wanted to leave my comments before reading this thread. In general when I read a topic here, between the intentional misleading of some and the great ideas that get floated about, I soon become dazed and confused.
    So, 9 sentences = 9 clues or 9 lines starting with Begin? Or both? I Assumed both since I stared this quest (9 weeks ago).
    I have two working theories/solves. One using the 9 lines which puts me, IMO, very close to a final solve, using a “blaze” that I stumbled upon. I just need to link the final road/creek/trail to its general location. I say all three just to keep my mind open, but I feel it will be a creek bed.
    My other is using both, solve the sentence riddles then use the 9 lines as directions. Strangely the two solves are not coelesing. The brave and in the wood stanza is leading me away from my first solve.
    PS. ITS SEEMS so obvious from clues that that the treasure is in YS or MT, but then why put an old map of New Mexico on the opposite page of the poem?

    Be safe and good luck.

    • No Comments…. hmmm Either i’m way off or on to something…
      So i’m attempting to reduce the 9 sentences and/or the 6 stanzas. I’ve tried “subtracting” one line from another, one stanza from another, but my method of removing duplicate letters doesn’t leave me much. I’m so bad at anagrams. I’m looking for other methods of “reducing” the poem lines. Any thoughts?

  36. Before I begin this, let me say that it has been pleasure interacting with Dal, Goofy, Seeker and all of you other fine folks here…..this post will come as close as any I have made to getting me banned.




    (A)…“I warned that the path would not be direct for those who had no certainty of the location beforehand, but sure for the one who did.”

    (B)…“Until someone finds the treasure they will not know for sure that they have discovered the first clue.”

    (C)…” Forrest said if you don’t have the first clue nailed down, stay home.”
    For both statements to be true, first you must completely and correctly solve the nine clues. The correct solution will have to be one, that when you look at it, you know with absolute certainty that you have “found” the treasure.

    And, at that time, having “found” the treasure, you will have proven the second statement. You are “certain” that you have found the treasure, thus the first clue is correct!!!!

    Forrest said he hid the Treasure – I believe him

    Forrest said the Poem will take you to the Treasure – I believe him

    Forrest said if you don’t have the first clue nailed down, stay home—I believe him

    Forrest made the above statements, (A),(B) & (C) – I believe him

    There is only one correct solution to the nine clues and only Forrest knows what it is. This unique knowledge allows him to make statements/remarks that are pertinent to that solution. The remarks I am referencing were made by him, with plenty of time for him to formulate and consider them. There was no duress present when he made them.

    (C)” Forrest said if you don’t have the first clue nailed down, stay home.”–OK, that is a given. You absolutely must have a point to begin at.

    (B)“Until someone finds the treasure they will not know for sure that they have discovered the first clue.” – OK, taken in conjunction with statement

    (C), you cannot know that your “first clue” is correct….until the treasure is found, so stay home!…..dam, what a conundrum!!

    BUT, we have statement (A)!!…. (A)“I warned that the path would not be direct for those who had no certainty of the location beforehand, but sure for the one who did.”

    ……So, considering all statements together:

    In order to be certain that you have the first clue nailed down (which if you don’t have, he said stay home), you must have a complete and the correct solve that you know, beforehand, leads directly to a specific 10” x 10” location ……anything else is “guessing”!!


    1.I am not saying that you can’t possibly guess the first clue or first two clues and go there, solve the remaining seven and find the chest. However, based upon his statements, you must realize that you are absolutely proceeding based upon on a “guess”.

    2.You must also accept that if you convince yourself that you have indeed solved the nine clues correctly beforehand, and you go to that specific location and there is no chest, then your solve was incorrect. It may totally wrong from the first clue or from another point in it…..but it is wrong!!

    At any rate, based on Forrest’s own words, it is entirely possible to solve the nine clues and derive the exact location of the chest, beforehand.

    Conclusion: While possible to solve with BOTG…..BOTG not “REQUIRED” in order to solve!!!

    ….. If I am misinterpreting what seems to be straightforward statements, then I await Forrest’s clarification.

    OK Dal, thanks again for tolerating a crazy old Texan…..tell Goofy to hit the button, if you must.

    • Because I agree with all but the 10x10x5 spot which would indeed be considerable target focus, I vote you get to stay but if not to be maybe they will let you out soon.

      • ???? If your solution does not take you directly to the chest (10″x10″x5″), then you will be “searching” when you get there….. You will NOT be “certain beforehand”……thus, you are guessing that is the correct solution!! 🙂

        • great comments loco. I would also add FF’s statement “The person who finds the treasure will have studied the poem over and over, and thought, and analyzed and moved with confidence. Nothing about it will be accidental.” How can this be true if your out there stumbling around in the woods looking for the last 7 clues that can only be found on site.

        • He also said and I don’t have the quote but you should that it is unlikely someone would get within 12′ of the chest and it not be discovered?

    • I think that these statements need to be taken within the context of the questions presented. See:
      Think about the question and review the answer.

      The first question and answer is telling if you are thinking.
      Q: Are there signs that people are getting closer to solving your puzzle? How many clues have people solved now?
      A:Searchers have come within about 200 feet. Some may have solved the first four clues, but I am not certain.

      200′ equals about 66 yards Think in terms of a football field.
      So what’s this tell us? It’s clearly telling us someone has possibly solved three of the 9 clues.

      Q: You have told people to stay at home unless they have solved the first clue.
      A: f you don’t know where you are going any trail will take you there.

      Considering the question, Forrest just told us that any trail will lead us home…If we do not have the correct starting point.

      Need I say more. Come on ppl read, think post.

      • Chad wrote–> So what’s this tell us? It’s clearly telling us someone has possibly solved three of the 9 clues.

        *** maybe so. But it is readily apparent that they haven’t correctly solved all nine with the certainty that would lead directly to the chest. Therefore, they don’t know, with certainty, that they have solved them……they are just “guessing”, and maybe rightly so, that they have solved them.


        Chad wroteConsidering the question, Forrest just told us that any trail will lead us home…If we do not have the correct starting point.

        *** I believe that was one of the points I made……if you don’t find the chest, exactly at the location your solve leads you to, it is wrong. Whether you employed BOTG and searching in the field to get you there or you “thought” you had a correct solve beforehand… is wrong!!!…….and you go home!!

        Thanks for replying, Chad. And thanks for the admonition to read more. I will try to do more reading, probably to Dal’s great chagrin!! 🙂 :)

    • Loco, I don’t know why you think you would get banned for what you think is a correct interpretation of what Forrest has said. I happen to agree with your interpretation that the poem can be solved without BOG…..well except you won’t know you’re correct without actually retrieving the chest. 🙂 And that’s pretty much what most people are doing don’t you think, using what they believe is a complete solution and going searching in a specific area where they think all 9 clues lead? I suppose there are some people who feel they have the fist few clues solved and will go wandering around looking for clue #3 or something, but I think Forrest said something about all they will have is a nice vacation. Even that’s not so bad as far as I’m concerned as it’s the “Thrill of the Chase” after all! 🙂

      • 🙂 Thanks CJ,

        Yes, most people are using what they believe is a complete solution and going searching in a specific area where they think all 9 clues lead…..and, as I said, it is entirely possible that someone may solve the Poem and find the chest in that manner……but they are still guessing that they have the correct area.

        I just pointed out, taking those statements together, that is also entirely possible to leave home knowing (1) you have certainty of exactly where the chest is, and (2) knowing that, you also have the certainty that you “nailed down” the first clue!!

        Thanks, again, for the response.

        • He never states you would be certain of the spot where the chest is, or you would be certain of your solution.

          He states ….

          “I warned that the path would not be direct for those who had no certainty of the location beforehand, but sure for the one who did.”

          He says certainty of the location. Not location of the treasure. The first two clues put you in the location where the “path” starts. If you know this location, then you will be move to the treasure area with confidence, as the path will be “direct” to you.

          But yes the two statements you speak of are an oxymoron.

        • Hey Loco remember a couple of years back when a handicapped woman asked Forrest to retrieve the treasure for her as she could not do it herself? Forrest was willing to do this for her but upon examining her solve and realizing it was incorrect that was the end of it. This event tells me that the chest can be located without botg, something I always believed. Great post by the way, thanks – Pete

    • LOL, be glad I’m not in control of the Doomsday Button… I’d Nuke ya just for your “confidence Level” alone… lol. And yes, I have always been an advocate for a ‘solve’ beforehand. No botg needed to search.
      Now I’d Nuke ya just because ya made me agree with you too…

      • ?????

        You agreein’?? Dang, does that mean we don’t get to argue anymore???

        Thanks, Seeker 🙂 🙂

      • 🙂 🙂 😉

        PPHHEEWWW!!! LOL!!! You have no idea how long I contemplated before I hit the Enter button on that post!!!!!

        Thanks, again, big guy!!! 🙂

    • Unfooortuuuunately… ( nah, I’m not going to point out the flaw — I applaud the positive outlook 🙂 )

    • Hi Loco,
      You could be right butttttttttttttttttttt….Not sure I’m ready to board this train of logic.

      Let’s start with (A): “…certainty of the location beforehand,….”. How do we know what “location” he is talking about? Is it the location of the TC, the first clue, or perhaps the general area where the BOTG portion of the search begins. Isn’t this just another general Fenn statement that doesn’t really reveal much?

      (B): To me this is just stating the obvious. He could just have well said “you won’t know where the treasure is until you find the treasure”.

      I think any of these statements can be true together or separately because they are inexact and leave to much for the reader to fill in on their own.

      Just my opinion.

    • HA! Loco……….No need to worry about being nuked for that. You presented your case well and supported it with your findings.

      I too have wondered about some of the things he has said. Without going through all the quotes from him about being straight forward, no deception, important to tell the truth, etc.

      I figured I had two choices; to believe him or not. If I think he’s lying about something there’s no need to proceed……If he lied about one thing he could be lying about anything, including hiding the chest. He said it is important to tell the truth, just not all the truth. Asking Fenn a question is like talking to a teenager with an attitude. He answered the question truthfully, but he didn’t tell the whole story. There have been some questions he refused to answer; he couldn’t tell the truth without giving away too much.

      Over the years I’ve given a lot of thought to the very quandary you present and I came to the conclusion that BTOG are required to solve the poem. And every time I’ve said that over the years it sends Seeker into convulsions. You gotta love that part. 🙂 Seeker keeps saying we are missing something; what we are missing is you have to solve the poem on location.

      So how do I reconcile his statements you presented? He never said you would proceed with confidence from your couch or from behind your computer. You will proceed with confidence when you arrive at the right starting point and figure out what the poem means. Which is why he keeps emphasizing the importance of the first clue and correct starting point.

      I think he’s saying there’s no need to dig a bunch of holes, or slog through tall grass and brush, or splash around in a river looking for clues. When you figure out the poem on location you will know exactly where to go.

      Just my opinion…..OK let me have it. (Seeker may not be able to respond for awhile until he gets his seizure under control I just gave him.)

      • Well, I’m out of my coma, and doc says I should have a full recover, still will be ugly as sin, but medicine can only do so much…

        Problems with botg only theory; All you need is the first clue. Yes Forrest Fenn as repeatedly stated the importance of the first clue… And should botg be the only method of “finding the clues” there is no need to understand what or where the blaze is, No worries about what hoB is, forget in the wood… that’s way past the point of… Just take the chest. No true reason to know what the answers tired and weak might mean, and why should we care about hearing or listening… Find the first clue and the others will present themselves. ok ~look over a map just to check, that is if all the clues are on a map and all the clues are places. The answers to the clues can not be in the book.. fenn stated you don’t have to read his book.

        Botg seems to imply, get to the correct starting point and simply follow the poem directions. But ‘many’ folks have indicated the correct first clue… the correct first two clues, and now some the first 4 clues… and still seem to not know. These folks told fenn where then have been, in e-mails or some other form of communications.
        Sure some have argued they may not have been searching at the time. My first thought to that is… 99.9% of searcher live and breathe the chase, they dream about it and even post their dreams… but some how they strolled into an area with clues and never thought twice about it… All of them?
        That is a hard one to swallow… With a low guess of 50,000 searchers, with 1/4 of them being in the correct state, leave 12,500 for that state, and just a very small percentage of 1% in the right area, that 125 searcher whom could have passed by the first clue. and I’ll even cut that in half to, rounding down to 62 searcher, and still no light bulb click on?

        This is why I personally think the poem is to be read differently then only the botg method. For me, it’s more about the correct methodology of reading the poem to understand it, then just ‘physically looking for clue’ And yes I’ll be the first to admit there are down falls to most of those methods as well…

        FF is happy with the job the poem as done… It was to get folks out to look… And after 15 years of re-writes he did accomplish that goal. Yet we forget [sometime] that his intent was also looking down the road, and influencing future generations.

        Logically, to create something in writing to stand the test of time, a description of time itself would be the best way to go about it. imo.

        Maybe we could open a new topic of Possible method of reading the Poem… Botg to find clues doesn’t seem to be working well.

        • Well Seeker the same could be said for the deep thinking bunch. There are many times the amount of searchers on the ground trying to solve it from behind the computer screens. We’ve had soothsayers, scientist, engineers, remote viewers, computer geniuses, mathematicians, English professors, code breakers, physics, and putting it very lightly….the highly imaginative, to name just a few trying to solve the poem. So using your way of looking at it; the poem should have been solved eons ago with the amount of horsepower that has been exerted by you deep thinkers. Does that mean you are wrong?

          • Ah! I see I didn’t make the list… I fall into the tired and weak group.

            But most of those folks you mentioned have botg as well. This is the fun part of the challenge for me. It was made for all. The ones who can go out and cover the landscape, the ones who just simply enjoy a brain teaser, Folks from other countries, even the ones who can not go but still like the involvement of it all. And all having the same opportunity to participate even if they can’t search.

            That is another reason why I have to think the poem can be solved beforehand… We all seem [ at-least ] to have that opportunity. It may not be true but it does seem that way.
            I’m open minded [ well, most of the time… ok some of the time… ok ok~ AT times ] But most of all I’m a realist. and that realist inside me say if ya can solve the poem… you should be able to figure out how to retrieve it as well.

            IMO. The poem is ‘ complicated ‘ and was meant to be. FF told us ‘not’ to over complicate it by Bible verses, codes ciphers etc. and also not to over simplify it… as to the Many WWWH comment.

            So I’ll leave tonight with this thought… there are many WWWH in the RM’s and “Most” are north of SF. From a different perspective of botg, could ALL the WWWH be a clue. The waters take it in the canyon down, and travel the watershed that The RM’s… a range created by the water over time and will see it’s demise/end the same way over time. The connection here is the CD which direct the direction of those waters, the back bone of the mountain range, a narrow passage… THE heavy loads and water high. All a description of places that can stand the test of the times presented in comment of 1000 years or even 10,000 years.

            Now ask yourself, AS I have gone alone in there… who or what is keeping the secret of riches new and old?

          • I am reminded of Mark Twain when I wonder whether I can get a solve here at home or there in the Rockies. I should just be unsuccessful where ever I am most content.

            “Niagara Falls is a most enjoyable place of resort. The hotels are excellent, and the prices not at all exorbitant. The opportunities for fishing are not surpassed in the country; in fact, they are not even equaled elsewhere. Because, in other localities, certain places in the streams are much better than others; but at Niagara one place is just as good as another, for the reason that the fish do not bite anywhere, and so there is no use in your walking five miles to fish, when you can depend on being just as unsuccessful nearer home. The advantages of this state of things have never heretofore been properly placed before the public.”

            Excerpt From: Twain, Mark. “Sketches New and Old.” iBooks.
            This material may be protected by copyright.

        • 🙂 Dang Seeker, you been reading my mind? Get outta there!! 🙂

          I may just have to print that out and frame it! Well said, both the content and the manner in which you expressed it.

        • Seeker,
          I agree. IMO pure bog is not a solution. The poem needs to be addressed first, tackled, solved or whatever. And then, perhaps, the first two clues only to be solved without bog, but giving a clear start location for a search. All this after a comprehensive understanding of the poem without a title.

          • Like I said, I’m opened minded to all possibilities… Example IF the path, meaning physical travel, to the chest is a one way and one way out. It is possible that the poem is to be solved botg. With the comments in ” fundamental guidelines” thread, “If you can’t make two trips from your car to your solve in several hours, then don’t go.”
            Is this only for the retrieval part or the entire poem’s solution? The word Solve to me means a complete solution of the poem and full understanding of it [ the go with confidence beforehand scenario ]. Or is it saying, a time line to, what it should take someone to solve [ infield ] with botg?

            This comment to me personally, is a hint, as well as a common sense guide.
            It seem obvious that at least in the ‘retrieval scenario’ it will take a searcher just as long as it took fenn to hide it.

            But should it be that the entire solution is to be done on site, botg… This seriously help in understanding how close or far clues may be near or apart. [ so if your solution is of a ten mile hike up and back twice in several hours = 40 miles, it might be flawed ]. And I’ll add, this comment may eliminate any other thought of mode of transportation. Should a boat, dingy, motorize vehicle, horse, or a Harry Potter hippogriff involved, there would be no need for this warning.

            The question is which scenario is it?

          • Seeker, IMO it would be impossible to solve BOTG, unless you had previously solved 8 clues – hence not being able to stumble upon it. If you think about it, you go to your HOB (for example), you look around and you see mountains, water and trees: what do you do next? “From there it’s no place for the meek” could mean go in the mountains, the river, the woods, anything. You could so end up in Randy’s predicament.

          • Vox,

            The not being able to stumble across it, is a good indicator to the ‘know beforehand’ scenario.
            I Think the more important part is [ as to my post above ] “should it be” a botg solve only, it would help to know that the entire trip… Solving on the ground at the time of searching and the retrieval should be no longer than several hours to accomplish the entire task with two trips, on foot.

            I say this only “if ” the comment was to a search as well, and not just retrieving the chest. For the die-hard botg method only this could help a lot…

            For the poem purist [ which now has been confirmed, in my mind ] it tells us there may only be one way [ shortest route ] to retrieve the chest… the same way fenn went to hide it. And that alone will take several hours. So pack a sandwich and a flashlight… Leave the dingy home.

          • I agree, Seeker. No dingy. Especially since he has said he carried a heavy backpack. Can you imagine a heavy backpack and dingy in tow and doing it twice? No, definitely sounds like a hike to me. This is an opinion, offered as a thought.

          • Absolutely! No boats of any kind!!

            Seeker, I have a real problem envisioning a totally BOTG solution. Forrest said words to the effect that you can’t take your family on a Sunday afternoon picnic and expect to find it (grotesquely paraphrased).

          • You’d certainly have to earn it! And you might be up all night, and then some!! I can’t give away any more, but IMO there’s a very good reason FF made that comment.

          • pdenver, in the scenario of that picnic, you’d certainly need to not be meek – and you’d need a lot more than a flashlight and a sandwich. So, really a dead end, IMO.

          • Do you feel one has to ‘earn it’ implies to thinking everything through or the boots on the ground is going to be a distant walk, or both? Maybe none that I suggest?

          • IMO, this is a stringent mental exercise – the BOTG part is very gentle exercise, by comparison! If you don’t do the homework, you won’t stand a chance when it comes to BOTG.

            Everything in the poem is there to help you – woe betide those that ignore parts of the poem.

          • I agree voxpox, you must pay attention to the poem. It is in there. I’m convinced. Found something today that convinces me even more and simply seems to confirm where I thought. I don’t Mr. Fenn’s books and I haven’t read all of his statements and all the ideas on these blogs, but as I do I find things that confirm my location, over and over and over again.
            What I don’t get is that I’ve only been at this a for a little over a week…

      • 0_0……Dang, first Dal tells me “tear it up, loco” and now, the Ranger with the BIG Iron on his hip sez, “take your best shot, loco”?…..I knew I shoulda went to church today!! LOL!!

        Hi Goofy, thanks for responding. OK, one more volley and I’ll let it die out and fade into the archives.

        You wrote-“So how do I reconcile his statements you presented? He never said you would proceed with confidence from your couch or from behind your computer. You will proceed with confidence when you arrive at the right starting point and figure out what the poem means. Which is why he keeps emphasizing the importance of the first clue and correct starting point.”

        To your first point I can only respond, “He never said you could not proceed with confidence from your couch or from behind your computer.” That may not seem to be a fair response…. But since he has never directly stated, or mentioned in passing, anything that would seem to touch on a searcher “having” to physically search in order to solve the Poem…..that is the only response available.

        He said he “wanted” to get people away from the machines and out in the sunshine. Just because he used words in the Poem that reflect the outdoors and he promotes the location of the chest as being outdoors, doesn’t translate to “having” to be there in order to solve the Poem.(I know you will agree that he is a very gifted salesman, and no, he doesn’t have to lie about anything to do it….nor does he)

        The Poem solution being attainable before going to the field does not negate the stated desire to get people outdoors, probably enhances it if anything. Many more would be involved, and get outdoors to check their solutions, if they thought it could be solved before going.


        And, your second point…. I agree, with both you and Dal, and Seeker. You have to definitively identify a starting point. Whether it is obtained by using clue 1 or requires both clues 1 and 2, you must “arrive” at that starting point before you can ever hope to solve the remaining seven or eight clues.

        The only thing we are at odds about is whether, having “arrived” at a starting point, it is necessary to physically start searching/solving there in order to find the chest or can one start there with mental effort and virtual (or other) resources to find the chest?……I’ll point out here that Fenn, when tracking down artworks, artifacts or antiquities did not “physically” go to each point of contact. The internet not being available, he made efficient use of U.S. mail, telephones, telexes, libraries, etc.

        As “fundamentaldesign” mentioned earlier, Fenn certainly has the skills necessary to devise an instrument that could be solved either way, in the field w/ BOTG or mentally, with resources available…..and he certainly had the time to refine it.

        And, again, I am not saying that BOTG is not the only way it can be solved, I just highly doubt it. I’m saying, taking all of his statements into account, that there is a very high probability that the Poem can be solved without having to “physically” search for the solution to the clues and/or the chest itself….. 🙂 only Fenn knows fer sure, and he ain’t sayin’!!

        Thanks again Goof…..glad you gave the Button a rest today!!! 

        PS—just saw Seeker’s post before I submitted this. That was excellent.

  37. A thought on the little girl in India: Probably nothing, but has not been mentioned. Jenny’s question say’s she speaks good English. So we are to assume she speaks Indian and English only. Forrest said if he could hide another chest in the Appalachians he would. The Appalachians were settled by mainly English speaking Europeans, but the Rockies where settled by mainly Spanish speaking and/or French speaking explorers. So maybe none of us that speak only English will ever find the treasure.

    Like I said probably nothing, but may offer up another solution to why she can get no further than clue #2.

    Fred Y.

    • Makes you want to go back and reread the scrapbook where Forrest needed a French letter translated to English doesn’t it?

      • @ Fred Y, oui, it does indeed. Do you recall which scrap book that was?
        As a matter of fact, I find it helpful to search for words in both French and Spanish, and always have fun learning something new.

          • @Chad, the easy answer to your question would be ‘communication’ IMO but other responses come to mind as well… Creation of beauty, spicing up all relationships, giving definition to our thoughts & world as we understand it, etc.

            @pdenver, thanks for scrapbook 47. Mostly for the outrageously great laugh! Forrest was already a card in 8th grade, and really bright.

          • Please keep in mind this is just mho:
            Language is a means of conveying ideas and concepts. For instance, if I say John has a green ball. Everyone that speaks english understands what a green ball is. Now if I say: John a une boule verte. Most english speaking people would not understand. Unless the speaker holds up a green ball. At which point we may realize that the speaker is talking about a ball. With the illustration of the ball in hand we might never realize he was speaking about a ball in general.

            Now consider the poem, each stanza is constructed in such a way as to convey a generalized ideal but here is the real kicker. Hidden within is Forrest’s meanings. So far I have found myself jumping at the first meaning that pops into mind when reading the poem. My mission now is to look beyond the veil.

            When at first light I did not see that which lie just in front of me.

          • Oh, I would have loved to have been his teacher when he was in the 8th grade! lol I would have had a heck of a time trying to keep a straight face! 🙂

          • As I read that I busted a gut. Tears of joy ran down my face.
            This is a fine example of Forrest’s wit, just think he took several years to create the poem. Do we really stand a chance of figuring it out with this example in hand????

          • I agree, my biggest flaw in going on preconceived notions and perceptions.
            This is why I have gone back to the start of the poem. A fresh look with an open mind.

        • So, mystery or (For’s-story), sex, and religion it is. LOL and don’t forget the 8th grade humor. Throw me the bear spray, a map, and a bottle to pee in so I don’t have to stop for at least 600 miles.

  38. Ummmm as entertaining as this has been. I have missed some of the whispers
    her, can I barrow a qtip or 2 please.

  39. Loco

    YEA for you! Well thought out. I 100% agree with you. My solve, done only with the poem, a good topo map, GE and a minor bit of on-line research, takes me to within (I think) about 5 – 10′. Sometime between March and May, I will put BOTG and know for sure. It all depends on the weather. Let’s hope for an early spring.

    Good luck to all


    • JD, thanks for agreeing!! 🙂

      I applaud you on the complete solve!

      But, if you go to your 5′ or 10′ area, and the chest is not there, I fervently hope that you realize, and accept, that in all likelihood your solution was incorrect? At either the first clue or some point after.

      Please don’t be one who comes back and says, “somebody else got it” or “Forrest never hid it at all”!

      Again, congrats on the solve and Good Luck to Ya!!!!

      • Looking forward to photos and the story ” How I found Indulgence “.
        On a serious side even if you do not find indulgence, it will be a good story to relate to us here.

  40. I do have both books, and things found in each support my final “solve”, but I could have reached the same spot without the books.

    • So JD, which area are you going to search in?
      Hopefully not the Madison’s, where the high concentration of griz are.
      I know your packing but still risky.

  41. Jake, nope, not the Madison, but you are in the right state.

    Loco – Thanks for the kind words. I will NEVER say that “Someone took it”, or” ff never put it there”. Odds are NOT in my favor of finding the TC, but (like anyone who completes a solve) I am going to my location with FULL CONFIDENCE.

    If I am lucky enough to find the TC, some of the gold coins will be going to Randy’s valiant searchers…It would be the least I could do.

    • Thanks JD,
      I was thinking if i found it I would also try to have a monument based where Randy went missing, commemorating him & the place somewhere above the East rim. Maybe: Bilyeu’s Lookout.

      • I like this ideal. That would be a fantastic way of honoring Randy, and the searchers who have given so much of themselves.

  42. BTW, there was a member here on this blog this week that said he/she was going to get the treasure in 48 hours. Well it’s been more than 48 hours & has not commented anything yet.

    Does anyone know who this was?

    • Not sure Jake, so much going on that something’s just zip right past.
      I do seem to recall someone saying that. Just where escapes me.

    • That person was called “Search the West”. You’re correct: on Feb. 1st, that person said their search would begin in 48 hrs (posted on the Nine Clues thread previous to this Nine Clues thread). I haven’t seen any news from that search.

    • Yes, Golden Retrievers, Thank you
      Search The West.
      Well, hopefully he’s OK assuming male gender. He said he’s been out searching before in the RM’s in winter, but that certainly doesn’t give you a free passage to safety.
      It’s been a week from his comment & Forrest’s website still has the big fat “NO” about the treasure being found.

      Wonder what happened to that crazy dude?

    • I might know them, I am sure the world will know soon enough if they choose to go public, Forrest said he would know, but if that person went prepaired for even that scenario so they could remain anonymous… I am sure that could be possible! Newtons law could come into effect for many reasons!

  43. Q: Will the poem lead you to the treasure? “Yes if you know where to start.”

    In context with 2 clues at most before heading to the Rockies; does the Q&A above lead any of you to the conclusion that the first 2 clues should be clearly indicating a search starting place? Not a starting place that can be easily confused with many other starting places.


    • Two takes on this.
      Where do the clues start?
      Where to start on the ground?
      As clear as mud…

      • Chad,
        I like to think that would be the answers to the first two clues. If I had those two locations certain before I left I would go. But can I be certain before I go look for the chest?

        Study the clues and “thread” a tract through the wiles of nature… No certainty of the location =”no direct path”. Just this alone spins my head. Study clues and thread (not a straight or direct movement and implies weaving to me) yet if you have no certainty your path will not be “direct”.

        “A dare went out to everyone who possessed a sense of wanderlust; study the clues in the book and thread a tract through the wiles of nature and circumstance to the treasure. If you can find it, you can have it. I warned that the path would not be direct for those who had no certainty of the location beforehand, but sure for the one who did.”

        • This leads me to think that in some way Forrest has concealed the place name of the starting point within the poem. I have been playing with a few ideals, none of which I am ready to disclose atm. However seeing that my irons are getting hot to fast in my personal affairs I will toss this out there as food for thought and research. Forrest likes to play with words, what is the next step? How about playing with sentences? Atm something is eluding me. I was watching this show on tv about these kids who were secret agents. One of them used a computer to analyze a person’s name and said your name is a ________ for this_______
          Anagram???? Okay I need a break or is that a brake?

    • I always understood his question if you know where to start but my question would be how close does the poem get you? It helps to know how close it gets us so it either explains if we are working in a fine area like matter of feets or its to a area like several hundred acres.

      • Just mho, say that I have the first 3 clues correct. I believe that I would be within 500′ of the treasure.

    • yes, if a person has the first clues correct.
      knowing what the first two clues are and understanding what they are referring to
      Is something Forrest has said in so many words at various times.

  44. Who knew? A “comma” is a slight step up in music, and a brownish colored butterfly. Uken2it & Stephanie, I’m riding the same merry-go-round trying to determine where in the poem to take words at face value and when to dig deeper into layers. Please bandage my scraped up knees when I jump off the merry-go-round. 🙂

    • Although this may seem like rehashing of India girl, I am using it as a back drop for another question for fenn.

      f – Could the little girl in India have enough certainty when looking at her answers to the first two clues, if they were correct, to convince her parent it was clearly the correct place to start a search on location in or near the Rocky Mountains and they should act on this knowledge. Send a relative or friend in the US or fly to the RM area themselves and start unveiling the other 7 clues?

      • f. If the little girl from india had the correct solves to the first two clues and convinced her parents clearly they were the correct place to start a search.
        And they send a family member to that place could that person start to make sense of the other eight clues??

        • Chad,
          I like this. You moved the question mark to the US. This would be helpful to folks in the US too, even those who live in the RMs.

          I wish to find out the level of certainty from an objective mature non searcher having to decide to foot the bill. Therefore “could” they convince their parent that the solution is correct and cannot be true of many places.

          We could probably boil this down to a sentence or two but where would the warm water go…

    • From the energizer bunny comes more spin to make us go roundroundnuor:

      (No source link) Do expect that people will somehow *know* for sure once they have found the first clue?
      No, many people have found the first clue but they didn’t know it. Until someone finds  the treasure they will not know for sure that they have discovered the first clue.

  45. Here is what I think may be a possibility for you guys, 1 warm waters halt- Colorado Springs. 2 canyon is reall y as it says (follow the base of the mtn) 3 not far but to far to walk (use google earth) 4 home of brown ( scroll down just a click or two on google earth until you see a picture of a splash of red on an otherwise yellow road. 5 no place for the meek ( wild mtn is on the right, it also runs parallel with Vietnam Veterans Memorial Hgwy) 6 the end is drawing nigh ( straight line left if you are in a car) if wise and find the blaze ( and no my friends I don’t think its the cellar) its the beaver creek wildlife area sign, ill come back to that) 7 look quickly down your quest to cease ( if you are looking at the beaver creek sign you will see a small cemetery called beaver creek cemetery, also ill come back to that) 8 tary scant with marvel gaze ( head to the cemetery with confidence because you now know where to go from the blaze) 9 with heavy loads and water high ( burden of someones death and tears running down your face.. now that’s 9 so far and I will let you guys know the rest in the morning because I am here now (and I forgot a very important one earlier ( there will be no paddle up your creek, just head up beaver creek rd and on the way look at the old cramer school and the lone cedar site, all of those pictures were done by someone very important to this whole story including the one of the cellar which I don’t think is the solve in any way other than getting you to a blaze… Wish me luck, I drove a very long time with the family for this awesome vacation, and any feedback would be appreciated! and by the way this cemetery is also home to a Vietnam veteran who I think is very important to this solve!

    • I have truly enjoyed this time with my family here in Colorado, as Forrest would have wanted, I hope it just gets a little better tomorrow!

    • Let me know if any of this helps anyone, it would make me feel better if think that my research has aided someone to make their own TTOTC

    • If you are on location now I wish you only the best of luck.
      One question though will those places be there in 100, 100o years?
      If it is manmade it is doubtful. We like to change things to much.

      • Nice point my friend and one that I have asked myself before, and yes it will be there in 10 ,100 years as long as geology will allow it, even if a fire sweeps through it, It will get scorthed but it will still be there… and don’t forget to take a sandwhich

      • IMO there are a few very intelligent people on here that may think the cellar is the final spot but if you read at the bottom of the picture in google earth it will give you the person who took the picture which is connected to everything, the point is the cellar IMO has nothing to do with anything other than being a specific target(blaze), if you look at the blaze just to the right of it (google earth) make sure you read what they say, they give you details how to get to the cellar, but the bottom line is the cellar is a curveball ( I spent a lot of time physically there) In my solve the blaze to the right is SUPER important, it even gives you a blow up the place I am looking tomorrow, and heres something that is cool, that blaze (beaver creek wildlife sign and not the one you see from google earth was placed there by a friendly donar in 2009.. Hope I didn’t confuse you, trust me I thought the cellar had money wrote all over it kinda does and kinda doesnt

        • Maiben,
          I am lost. Below the hob can be a cellar. But how do you connect “cellar” to pics on google earth? Just one location or is cellar a term used and embedded in picture. Help I’m dizzy.

        • Morning Maiben,

          You wrote, “IMO there are a few very intelligent people on here” – I just want you to know that I resemble that statement. 🙂

          Good luck on your search!

          • Good morning to you also my friend, I am almost to beaver creek cemetery to look at something, I am looking for one thing for sure, not the TC but something else, I think I am going to drive up the road a bit with the family to Table Mtn to have a picnic with my family, the view is stunning around here, its much better here than North Carolina, no I am not a Panthers fan, Thank goodness.. I will stay in touch with the board on my findings, I will also be glad to give my thoughts or opinions to anyone who wants to ask, I am just that way, no secrets with me..Take care all

  46. Okay uken2it, let me toss this out there. Say I have solves to the first three clues.
    How can I go with confidence if I have no way to verify they are correct?

    • If you have 3 clues solved with no confirmations either in the poem or maps, then play canasta. But if the poems, maps and solves give you confirmations that the place to start an on the ground search is accurate and unique, I would be confident enough to get there and search.

      • Okay,This takes us back to All a person needs is the poem and a good map.
        Could the poem in some way we have not seen be the good map?
        I have seen discussions about folding the poem, tracing the way the poem aligns in the page. Non of which bore any fruit.

  47. I find it strange that Forrest would include Canada in the search area. I really do not believe he would want his bones in BC? Right. This is a place that forrest wants to lay to rest! Just what do you all think?

    • Forrest has already said its not in Canada my friend, I posted a few lines up that may help you get a start if you think that it has logic to it, I can promise you it has a ton of in depth research to back it up, I am just not a greedy person, if the treasure is located from what I have gave then I have won anyway. (and hopefully a tip lol )

      • Maiben,
        What clued you to peace park? I lost a connection in my damaged memory that may have been related to Cold War, warm or cold peace or warm waters meaning peace. But I rekindled the search there with the triple divide as WWWH

        • IMO, There is no paddle up your creek was my clue to peace park, it made me feel a lot warmer, I hope I understood you correctly my friend. I wrote it out pretty good I think.

      • Good Luck to you and your family. Safe travels. If the treasure is there, I hope that you find it. Nice solve.

    • Loulee,

      Your correct about where fenn location of the chest is… Not in Canada, and in one of the four states. But why can’t a clue be in Canada? it’s not likely , but we still have no indication that the clues are all within the Rockies or even in The USA.
      I have seen postings recently and over the years that a lot of folks seem to think the clues must be within the Map area of TFTW.

      Fenn stated, as I’m sure you know { don’t worry I won’t call you a senior anything, I just mean that you are well informed } Of the ” there are many WWH in the RM’s and MOST are north of SF” could WWH be outside the RM’s? if there is a chance that some are south of SF. Could WWH be In Canada just because 1/2 the mountain range is located there?

      The only thing we know is, ” the chest ” itself is in the RM’s in one of the four states and in the area on the map in the tftw book. Pretty much anything else is up for grabs.

  48. I know this. I am talking about his comments about the Canadian Rockies not being on the map. I am not new here to the chase. Just thinking about that. Its still strange.

    • Help me out, what is strange about it

      And yes i know you’re not knew to the chase…I’m just smart enough to not call a woman senior anything… lol.. not if I want to stay standing.

  49. Hi Seeker….So you want to call me a senior something? sorry I think we all might be confused here a little tonight.

    • The senior thing was a sad attempt a humor…
      what I asked about was Canada, what is strange to you about Canada to the poem?

  50. Well I researched Canada. You know there is a mythical mountain there in Jasper National Park….Brown Mountain. Its interesting. The BC Rockies is a grey area in the chase.
    And yes Seeker I am a senior searcher, and having a tough time remembering all the things that forrest has said….Hear me all and listen good.
    Today I find it interesting that Dal said he thinks you have to be boots on ground to find HOB. Yet Forrest said If he told us what Home of Brown was….we would go right to the treasure. Not sure why Dal said that? What do you think about that Seeker?
    Ok I am a senior but not a senior…..Ok ? LOL

    Lou Lee, chased by Bears and lived to tell.

    • I hate to drop this , but I recall the statement concerning the home of brown by Forrest. I can not locate the Q & A it appeared in but 5to my reculation His statement went something like this:

      If I told you what the home of brown was you would go right to it.
      Yes I am handing this one off for research, to tired for sleuthing atm.

      Batter up…

        • Well done! pdenver, I like your style.
          Thank you for clearing my foggy mind.
          While watching the video I noted that Forrest emphasized
          thinking. Not just merely hitting the ground running.
          I know you watched the video, so the hob is crucial to finding the chest.
          Very interesting.

          • You’re welcome, Chad. I do agree there is a lot of thinking involved and home of Brown is a very important clue we need to figure out. It almost sounds like something(s) should seem to be common sense, but hidden in the meanings. Maybe it’s late and I’m falling asleep. 🙂

        • See, I have been trying to tell you he said this…..! Its important. I like how he told her when she ask, I also said Wood. I think they go together.
          The other thing I would like to know is how does forrest keep his 80 year old skin so smooth?

          • I feel like he always wears that same plaid blue shirt. lol. And a red bandanna around his neck.. I remember something about a red bandanna covering the chest when it was in a safe i think. Is forrest wearing the hints too!!!?? lol

        • SO, IMHO, if he gave us the hoB, the rest of the clues would be so easy to solve, that we could go right to the chest.

  51. Chad in response to your post of yesterday.

    “Just mho, say that I have the first 3 clues correct. I believe that I would be within 500′ of the treasure.”

    We each have our own opinion. In my solve, I travel 10 miles from wwwh – hoB
    From hob – meek = 2.5 miles. From meek – blaze = 6.7 miles. No one knows until they have the chest in their hands.

    Good luck to you in your search, and good luck to Maiben in his search.

    Good luck to all.


    • JD, just curious, why do you have a distance gap from HOB to meek? The line of the poem reads “from there,” which I always assumed was a reference to the previous line – HOB. I feel like I have a lot of the same interpretations that you do but we would differ here.

  52. Hello searchers:

    BigSkip here:

    Question for JD: From your 2/7/16 2:17 PM comment, you have the solve and are within 5 – 10 ft. of the spot all done with the poem, topo map, GE, and some reseach and you’re heading out this spring. Can we assume you have identified or discovered the Blaze without being on the ground?

    Thanks for the info.


  53. Big Skip

    That is a correct assumption. My BLAZE can be seen on my Topo, as well as on GE. Sorry, I can’t be more specific.


    • JD:

      Thanks for your reply. Up to this point I have thought the search for the Blaze would require a trek to the general spot and only then, upon finding the Blaze, could you recognize the TC. Also, if you haven’t been to the exact spot, will your location fit FF description, “If I were standing where the TC is, I’d see …………

      Thanks again

  54. Big Skip

    Not sure that I am familiar with you not-completed ff quote. Can you provide
    the full quote? When and where it was spoken and in relation to what…a question, etc.

    Sorry – help me out, and I will answer as best I can


  55. I am wondering if forrest has a secret to his smooth skin? I know he wears hats, that is smart! But I wonder if Forrest would like to share his secret? Secret to smooth skin at 80…..that is.

    Love Lou Lee

  56. Regarding the excellent discussions over the weekend by Seeker, Locolobo, Goofy, Dal, and others, regarding whether “go with confidence” suggests BOTG required or not.

    Step-wise validation: (it requires BOTG only for the Blaze):
    There are many many wwwh.
    From that superset, only some have a “canyon down”.
    From that subset, only some have a HOB.
    From that subset, only some “put in” interpretations lead to some un-meek condition, whatever that is.
    From there, some end-y kind of thing happens or doesn’t, and you look for a paddle-less creek somehow associated with heavy loads and water high.
    From there only wisdom will get you to within eyesight of the blaze.

    So my point here (I nearly lost MYSELF, sorry), is that each successive clue _requires_ validation from the next clue….that only after this step-wise validation procedure do you have confidence. imo

    For me, this step-wise validation procedure strongly suggests that it would be futile to attempt to do it all in the field–there’s just no “confidence” in that approach IMO. And that you’re WWWH cannot be determined until step-wise validation has been completed all the way through to the general locale of the Blaze. That would be problematic in the field, especially if it is only possible to do one step-wise validation (canyon down validating wwwh) before heading out.

    Could be I guess. Field validation of 7 more clues (canyon down needing HOB validation, needing put-in validation (or whatever your next clue may be), etc.) could take a thousand years. Oh, wait. arrrrghhh

    Just my Oh! Pinion!

  57. Thanks pdenver for the quick find.
    Big Skip. In a word “yes”. I would probably see several different species of wild animals – Deer, Elk and even Moose are found in the area. Even Grizzlies on occasion. I would smell pine nuts and sagebrush. ff once mentioned pinon nuts, but later retracted it. If I MAY see Grizzlies, doubtful that I would smell pinon nuts, and visa-versa. Can not be more specific than that. Hope it helps.

  58. Joseph – Nice write-up.

    I agree 90%. You implied BOTG for finding the blaze. (If I understood corectly) Here I disagree. I was able to find my blaze on GE and a good Topo. It will be confirmed with BOTG this spring. COME-ON-SPRING!

  59. @JD, just remember you are looking for a plotted gravesite. That is how you will know you are in the right location. That is your point.

  60. Med_evac

    ff said that the place he hid the treasure was the place that he would throw his body upon, with his last dying breath, and dare the world to find his bones (paraphrasing)…But a “Plotted Gravesite???? not so sure. Just my opinion


    • FF did state in his book TTOTC that he did “plot his final repose”. His ode to Peggy tells (me) which position his final repose is (i.e. fetal or supine). I would look it up now, but I’m at work for 9 more hours but it is in one of his later chapters near the end of the book. I believe it’s the chapter that the ode to Peggy is in or the chapter before. I got the book after reading the poem, but if I had received the poem by way of the book, then after reading it, I would have the book, the poem and the point that I would be looking for. The details to the location are in his poem.

      • TTOTC, “Ode to Peggy Jean,” page 143:

        ‘I recovered after having planned my future up to one detail short of the final bier. I had even plotted to have my bones rest forever, in silent repose, beside the treasure chest.’

    • I am not talking about a cemetary. Don’t go digging up old graves. He said he plotted his final repose. That means there is a marker of some sort there. It is a grave, but as you all know there is no body there. FF knew where he wanted to hide the TC from the very beginning. Everything was in place but one thing (the poem), he also did say that he would throw his body on the chest and we would just have to go and search for him but he hadn’t written the poem at that point in the 80’s. The poem evolved for 15 years to what we have before us now.

    • This is all my IMO, but just so we are all clear on my gravesite tangent. I am not suggesting the TC is in a cemetary. Forrest did state that we should not dig up any graveyeards or buildings, the treasure is not associated with any structures. But he did state as well in his book TTOTC that he did in fact plot the location of his final repose. Whether that is a cairn of rocks or a ledge or even 4 rocks representing a potential gravesite, you will not know until you are there.

  61. Just wondering…did anyone hear that TLGFI called TLBFD(the little boy from Detroit)? They are sharing notes and maps and plan to meet somewhere North of Santa Fe in the RM? Jes kidding…Did I just read someone is talking about grave sites again!!?

    • ken-
      I thought I saw that too..but not to’s a dead issue…bwahaha…
      Maiben said that he knows the chest is not in the cemetery…

      • Well thank our lucky stars! That subject was pulverized to death several, a few, I mean a couple of years ago…

  62. FF said when he can see and smell different things around him he said “OR pinon nuts”. He never said he would see or smell them. I believe that is a zinger he threw out there to throw us all off. If you look at the pinon tree growth habitat in the 4 states and go off of that, your search area is narrowed down considerably.

    • What makes the location so special fo F. “I’ve been there a few times, the place holds some special memories for me.” (Exposition Unknown show)
      “One of the first treasures I found was named Peggy…” (NM vacation commercial)
      Maybe it was where he took Peggy to propose? IDK…

  63. In the beginning Forrest told us that all we need to find the chest is the poem. Later he said that all we need is the poem and a good map would help.
    Why a good map?
    And what’s the difference between a good map and any other map?
    How would I know if I was looking at a good map vs a not good map?

    A thousand years from now will folks still have access to all the things Forrest has said…the additional hints he has given us??
    Maybe a good map could could narrow down the search area for us…

    Lets step back about 5.5 years to the fall of 2010 when Forrest announced the treasure hunt and the poem. There is a lot of info commonly understood today but that was not commonly known at the start. For instance, we did not know it was in the ROCKY Mountains…only that it was in the mountains. We did not know it was only in either MT, WY, CO or NM. We also considered ID and UT and British Columbia and Alberta and even Alaska. Even the Appalachian, Cascade, Sierra Nevada, Coastal and Adirondack Mountains were in play…although considered “not likely” still, we had no proof that they were not and there was a lot of speculation. Heck, folks were even considering the Alps.

    So, let me ask a question that you and I know…but is not answered in the poem…
    How would we be able to narrow down the search area to what you and I know today….
    If we never heard him say that it’s in the Rocky Mountains…
    If we never heard him say that it’s in MT, WY, CO or NM north of Santa Fe…
    If we never heard him say that it’s not in Canada…
    How would we know these things if we just had the poem???
    These clues are not in the poem…

    A good map might point this out for us..
    Where would we get a good map that does this?

    Forrest’s map in the back of TFTW would tell us this…
    Maybe he means that the map in TFTW is “the good map”.
    Maybe I’m just trying to sell TFTW books…lol…

    • I have lots of good maps and you might even be able to convince me to give one up. They are guaranteed to be somewhere in the Rocky Mountains, North of Santa Fe and South of the Canadian border. For a little extra some have an X on them.

    • Hi ya Dal,

      For some having access to TTOTC would give people a general ideal of the search area. Within it’s pages Forrest talks a lot about his youth and places he had been, things he done. Ummm a good map. That depends on the person and what the map it for. Take old miners. The west is full of stories of lost mines. Some of the stories are associated with a map. Often these maps are cryptic in nature to us. But to the creator they held the meanings of symbols rendered.

      In my mind the map in TFTW is just a reassurance of the general hunt area.
      Does that there is another map out there someplace??? Perhaps it is right in front of our face and we are not seeing it. Imho

      • Chad,
        How about the map that was burned by Forrest & Donnie to get a fire started?
        Sometimes the good things get burned only to find out later how good they would have been. IMO

        • If memory servers me correctly this is one of the stories related in Forrest’s books. I think that map predates the poem and the hiding of the chest.

          • Yes Chad it does predate.
            It is still a good map, isn’t it?
            I know it’s good, real good.
            It’s Forrest Service map & I think Forrest worked for the Forest Service at one time in this area.
            Maybe you know what National Forest map this is?
            I believe there are 3 of them.

          • I would need to read the story and see where it takes place. I do know what NFS maps are… Somewhere buried in my pile of maps, ummm.
            That is a good lead to take a long look again.


    • The quick answer is we are viewing the poem in the present. This may be why folks love names of places. Should the poem be solvable only by the poem in the distance future, names are not guaranteed. Neither were they in the disant past.

      Research is sematics at this point…

      That said, maybe a more generic approach is needed. I Think we needed to figure out the mountains are the Rockies… Then three years into the chase he handed it to us, and we tend to dismiss it as a clue.. A real and needed clue.

      The obvious answer to the RM’s is simply the north part… When taken generic. There is no way to no for sure if any of our interpretation are correct till we get a flow to the poem, and even then not till we locate the chest… Confidence is not factual, that is why fenn said he was not sure the poem could be solvable, but we all have the same opportunity.

      When thinking more generic, the comprehensive knowledge of geography may just fall into place, naturally.

      • Speaking of names Seeker………I think a comment Fenn made gets overlooked. I don’t know why.

        Fenn commented:
        And the word may be used colloquially

        That’s an interesting statement. Colloquialisms are often geographical in nature, and used in everyday speech. Words that have a formal meaning can also have a colloquial meaning and the meanings can change over time.

        So we’ve been looking at “formal” names (on the map) on our searches. That narrows it down to a gazillion places. But now we need to add informal names of places, which may only be known to the locals, found on location, or mentioned in a book.

        • I had forgotten about that… Thanks for the rehash.
          Not only informal to the locals, but perhaps slang related to a region,
          In the wood fits well in relationship to what is known at this point… Saddle for, a Texan, saddle for a mountain man, etc.

          This for me is why the book, although not needed, is Reference orientated… Subtle hints.

    • Dal, you said:
      “How would we be able to narrow down the search area to what you and I know today….
      If we never heard him say that it’s in the Rocky Mountains…
      If we never heard him say that it’s in MT, WY, CO or NM north of Santa Fe…
      If we never heard him say that it’s not in Canada…
      How would we know these things if we just had the poem???
      These clues are not in the poem…”

      I strongly believe the answers to all these questions are actually in the poem, but the focus has been helped enormously by Forrest eliminating certain aspects and recommending a good map.

      Even with the narrowed focus, searchers are struggling to agree on WWWH. To me that’s due to placing the map before the poem. I spent years poring over maps, looking at every potential WWWH I could find. Only when I abandoned that approach did things start to gel.

    • @Dal. Why are we caught up in what kind of map we need? If I tell a searcher that I have a map of the location of the treasure chest and show them a general map of the Rockies with no specifics, would that help anyone? Now if someone told us where to go to acquire the treasure chest with 100 % detailed, precise directions, wouldn’t it make more sense to worry about what kind a map we would need? To me a map is a map is a map if it takes me to where I am going. All this is my opinion and my opinion only. RC.

    • @ Dal..Keep in mind that TFTW was not published until 2013. If his statement about needing good map was stated before the publishing of TFTW in 2013 than this most likely rules out the map in TFTW as a GOOD MAP.

      • Jesse guys…I apologize, I need to be clearer.
        I am not saying that the map in the back of the book IS what he was referring to…

        I’ll try again next week..

    • Dal, I completely agree with the basic premise here. I’m still trying to figure out if this is going to be worth my time. It’s kind of fun, but there are a lot of other things that I should be doing and other outdoor projects that are much more straightforward. It reminds me of the psychic that knows where the body is buried – the psychic tells the police that there’s running water and trees. Well, that’s everywhere. And if it’s not everywhere, it becomes everywhere with mental gymnastics. The psychic is always right.

      The lack of consensus and 5+ years of searching is telling. People are only closer in the sense that certain places have been ruled out from additional clues, FF slip ups or certain areas have been so thoroughly searched as to be deemed impossible. Furthermore, any additional information tends to be confirmation bias in relation to a person’s general approach or a specific clue. Nothing could be more clear of this than the new interpretations of the India problem.

      The poem purists are in the same boat and likely in a tougher position. On the off chance that somebody actually shares their purist solve or even one of the “breakthroughs,” it’s usually wild conjecture or loose tangents that are just as plausible as picking a random WWWH and then searching around for a week. At this point, and with respect to others, to think that somebody has not come up with your exact same interpretation of the poem is naive at best. You can read every post on every blog, but this is likely the tip of the iceberg as indicated by the website traffic. Tens of thousands of people have given this serious thought. So, you’re pretty much betting on the following: (1) your solve is so unique that nobody has thought of it yet, which leads to the greater likelihood of strange or loose interpretations/connections being made; (2) another person with your solve was too far away to search; (3) another person with your solve did not search thoroughly enough. The only thing that convincingly narrows down the search area is the facts that FF is still alive giving clues. Without more, there appears to be no solid consensus. Most people are right where they started and only convince themselves otherwise due to the time and money already invested.

      • Nicely said Ruido.

        If I may comment on one thing you said and that is; “The poem purists are in the same boat and likely in a tougher position.”

        Whole heartedly agree we’re all in the same boat no matter how we interpret the poem / clues. What did you think of the radio/phone interview A Columbus, OH radio Station aired this interview with Forrest on December 3rd, 2015. It’s HERE.
        With fenn’s statement at 35 plus seconds about the question of needing the book.

        I’m not asking to debate Book vs. Poem Purist BS that some folks like to do. I’m asking an opinion as to what avenue[s] are needed to solve the poem? With so much reference to the book… So much reference to research from other books, poem, wiki, dictionaries, ciphers, Morse code etc. etc. So much references to SB’s a clues. Does that statement from fenn give clear understanding what is needed or not needed?

        Question is open to all….

        • First off I think this is one of the best interviews, These guys asked good questions presented in a way to get positive feed back. You can walk away from that interview with no need to read the book, just the poem. The book will help. I have the book and have read it several times, I would say that its very interesting and that I did not gain much as far as interpreting the poem other then a general feel for FF. There actually is so much in there that it can lead you down some trails that wont lead to the chest. With all that being said one of the clues I was having a hard time with I gained insight from the book. I could have come to the same conclusion without the book but it most likely would have taken much more time.

        • OK Seeker,
          How many avenues are there that would be acceptable for Forrest?
          You already know I like the straight forward method.
          I have read peoples comments about layers (like an onion?).
          Others have talked about getting coordinates out of the poem?

          So how many methods do we have out there? That would be my first question.

      • I’d say it’s only worth your time if you really enjoy the idea of matching your wits against Mr. Fenn, and take pleasure in logical puzzle solving.

        As for your other comments, yes, it’s taking a long time because the poem has been incredibly well crafted – and designed to outfox all but the most tenacious and wily. It’s perhaps overly cynical to think that all “breakthroughs” are either wild conjecture or loose tangents. Some of us are painstaking in our methods.

      • Ruido-
        I can’t disagree with anything you’ve said…but it does seem to me you’ve left one important ingredient out of the mix…
        The “fun”…
        I have a great time exercising my brain while attempting to solve the puzzle of the poem and a great time out in the wood putting things together and filling my lungs with clean air.
        To me, this is all fun…and that’s why I enjoy it. When it stops being fun..I’ll move on to something else…bowling or darts or stamp collecting…
        I don’t suffer any illusions that I will be the one to find the chest..
        That’s so unlikely as to not even be a minute consideration…
        It’s fun to take up Forrest’s challenge and try to figure things out…
        I am enjoying myself and also the rest of the gang who hang out here trying to figure things out…

        • Dal, I completely agree. It is fun, and that’s where the reward is at IMO. I alluded to it above, but it’s important to make the fun the most important thing. People really seem to enjoy it. It has a similar feel to gambling but a lot healthier. You’re not going to win in Vegas, but there is plenty of free entertainment, free drinks and people having a good time. However, for both the chase and gambling, sometimes people take it too far and get into big trouble.

          I love the outdoors. The only reason I stumbled upon this project was b/c I had read an article about a guy lost in the backcountry who was using a boat in the of the RM and in the middle of the winter. I had never heard of anybody doing that. I always try to read search and rescue reports, especially related to avalanches, so that I don’t make similar mistakes in the backcountry. I then found this site and eventually arrived at the conclusion above. The poem is simply too vague and subjective and finally drawing the right conclusions (from either a BOTG or a Purist perspective) will be more lucky than anything at this point in the search. Personally, I’d rather just go enjoy the outdoors in the way that I know best and suits my tastes. For others, I’m glad the poem took them places they otherwise would have not gone. It’s just important to keep a healthy perspective regarding what’s best for each individual.

          I’ll probably follow the chase and continue to analyze the poem, but I will likely only do it to kill some time while working. I wish everybody the best of luck. If I find anything worthwhile that hasn’t already been suggested, I’ll try to post it on the site. I’m just not sure what else is out there besides the treasure itself.

          • Ruido: “drawing the right conclusions (from either a BOTG or a Purist perspective) will be more lucky than anything at this point in the search.”

            I don’t think luck will have anything to do with it at all. I think that statement will be a slap in the face to the person who solves the poem & retrieves TC.

            This is no flip of a coin. Just my 2 cents.

        • Well said. It isn’t called “The Thrill of the Chase” for nothing. I am fairly new to the hunt, but having a blast!

    • Dal, you asked; “Why a good map?
      And what’s the difference between a good map and any other map?
      How would I know if I was looking at a good map vs a not good map?”

      I answered in part; “The quick answer is we are viewing the poem in the present.”
      I think the poem has time involved in understanding it. With that said, I’ll add this.
      Fenn has said… a good map… a map is a map the more detailed the map the better… the right map… GE and/or a good map etc.

      My thoughts on this is GE. It’s like any other good detailed map, but with a twist, It’s a 3-D map. You need to take in considerations other thing Fenn has stated… The RM’s are still moving, Why didn’t the book only mention Mountains north of SF and not the Rockies. The mountains are his church and the river bottoms are where dreams and fantasies alike [ rainbow ] go to play.

      The poem is written jumping from past tense and present tense all the way through it. Take into the consideration, knowledge of geography might help, and you have a reading of a 3-D [ the way we view the world ] mapped time span.

      A good map- is the most detailed map. Viewing the poem as you would be looking over the land through a time span.

      I know this line of thinking doesn’t float with the thought of a map as a directional tool… yet fenn stated he was thinking down the road.
      “I’m not flippant about this. It’s not something somebody is going to be able to do on spring break or a Sunday afternoon picnic. I’m looking a hundred years down the road, maybe a thousand years down the road. People don’t understand that.”

      “I warned that the path would not be direct for those who had no certainty of the location beforehand, but sure for the one who did.” f


  64. Good afternoon ladies and gentlemen, I hope all are well.
    Woooo ya all have been a busy lot I see. The video of forrest describing the area of the chest is one of the most telling things I have looked at.
    I have seen it before, but it did not occur to me to see if I could get a written transcript until a light came on. Ummm wonder if my google foo is up to this…

  65. @Dal, I wish I could scream that answer, but it would blow my solve wide open to you folks. My solve was literally done by printing his poem from the internet. I did the same for the map, but it is too fuzzy to really make out. I do have topos for all four states and that seriously helped. But anywho, my solve is strictly based off of the poem and a good map. The book I received about 2 weeks ago and it has really subtle hints in it that fit my solve, but if I were to be correct in my solve, then most of his book is just a good read.

    • Ditto that, med_evac, except that I don’t have the book, but all of his stories etc. posted here have certainly backed up everything. I can also say that comments have helped to convince me of certain things as well, one that actually pointed to a confirming clue I had not noticed (but they did not have exactly correct.)

      • Hello Debbie, I admire the way you think, and after reading this comment it also made humble myself in something, keep thinking my friend you are a very bright mind and very respected in my EYES..

      • I agree, I also think something wasn’t exactly right, I respect the way you think my friend, it makes people look twice at every possible scenario, keep your mind racing and things will just appear!

        • Maybe there are two of the same roads with the same name but they didn’t connect together would it still be the same raod, all roads lead to the path you are going in some way or another.

  66. BigSkip here:

    A quick thank you to “pdenver” for finding and referencing the ff quote of “If I were standing where the TC is…..for JD. It would have taken me some time to find the source as much of what he has said is now memorized. This particular comment by ff, in my opinion, is very important and is overlooked by many in the solves. Being in the bottom of a canyon or in a dense forest might be questionable.

    Thanks again

    • @BigSKip, pdenver et al might as well keep this with the whole pine smell thing:
      Forrest Fire on February 6, 2015 at 3:45 pm said:

      You are right Ed, that New Mexico tourism video is getting a lot of exposure. I did not intend for my comment about pinon nuts to be a clue, and certainly no one should believe I was trying to say the treasure is hidden in New Mexico. Shame on me for saying that. f

      • Thank you for finding this, Cholly. I wanted to state what Mr. Fenn had said about the pinon nuts to others, but with proof. You have done so. 🙂

        • yw pdenver, off topic, I try and bookmark everything but sometimes forget to hit ‘done’ or ‘save’ and the biggest mistake is not rewriting the title/heading to something easy to find, my book marks is huge for the chase!

          • You have a great system, Cholly! I’m only going by memory. I should write them down in a notebook. Technology still has the best of me.

        • I posted a link on the Montana/Wyoming thread a few days ago. Hopefully, it will help resolve some questions relating to “Pinon” growth locations.

          Basically, and although rare; it actually does grow in the most Southwestern part of….Wyoming. I found this quite interesting.

          Hope it helps!


          • @SL do you have that growth habitat map available for download? The one I have from the forest service doesn’t show it, but I believe you. Although WY is far north of the supposed growth area, the topography and growing zones of the area make it plausible.

          • Just a dumb thought, but we all know that the first stanza is seemingly Forrest speaking in first person. We naturally read it that way and he knew we would. I don’t have much use for the first stanza except as an introduction, but I was wondering if it is a double-introduction. One is simply Forrest speaking and that is one introduction. The next introduction is in first person spoken from Indulgence’s perspective. He did name it after all. We have all had something (i.e. car) that we have named. We talk to it and it talks to us. Again, just a dumb off-the-wall thought.

          • Thanks for the map SL. I have the same map. I guess I just didn’t notice that very small area. I have never put too much into the pinon nut thing just because he said “OR pinon”. In my mind if that was an actual clue, then our search area is relatively small, but I don’t think it is. I think he threw that in there to throw us off the trail, which I believe he does more often than we all know.

        • Now here is a question: Why did Forrest use the word pinon?
          Cholly gave the best hint to the answer.

          • I think you missed my point, Note Forrest did not point to a particular type of pine tree. Why??? Because that would be TMI So he generalized it. Knowing that there is a good variety of pines within the four states.

  67. Just my thoughts Dal regarding a map.
    If a person has the correct perspective using the poem a map can be drawn from one’s mind picture. This imho depends on understanding which stanzas hold the clues and what the clues are relating to. Several words come to mind each time I read the poem. Conceptual, Metaphorical, Catachresis and Allegory.
    Just to name a few.

    • I think that’s a very good way of describing the process, Chad. Extracting a mental image from the clues helps way more than mere map-gazing, IMO.

  68. Chad’s second reference seems to clear it up very nicely. Here is a cut-and-paste of part of the article:

    “I’d smell wonderful smells, of pine needles or piñon nuts or sagebrush.”

    He also says in the video: “I know the treasure chest is wet.”

    But in an interview with The New Mexican, Fenn said, “That video didn’t have any clues. It might influence some people to come to New Mexico, but I don’t want to give the impression that I am giving that as a clue because I am not.”

    Fenn said if the treasure were in the wilderness, of course it would be wet. Just because the video shows a river, that doesn’t mean the chest is underwater.

    And he said he erred in mentioning piñon nuts. He really meant pine needles.

    I (JD) think that ff coming back and excluding pinon nuts, and saying that he meant pine needles is quite important…It is for me anyway.

    • JD et al, Just thinking about the use of colloquialism and how around where I live there are Bay Laural trees but old time locals refer to them as Pepper Wood….could be ff said pinon as that was the overall style of word (Spanish) used for any of the conifers that produce nuts….IMO

      P.S. JD, can you share any thoughts on why the poem reads look quickly down? Thanks.

  69. Hello JD
    BigSkip here:

    In your blog comment of 2/7/16, at 2:17PM, you provided some distance figures between “locations” in the poem. I check them with my solve and, low and behold, with some minor differences, we might be in the same place. Didn’t want to get tangled up with the locals about snow “shovels”, so will wait to that early spring. Hope to meet you in the outback.

    Thanks again

  70. “know of a few searchers who have been reasonably close to the treasure puttputt, but there is no indication that they knew it. No one has given me the correct solve past the first two clues.f The Third clue is the most important; when discovered your path will be direct.

  71. Cholly;

    My blaze in a large feature in the landscape. I must enter a wooded area, and travel some distance in the woods. At some point, my blaze will come into view again. It is at this point that I must “Look quickly down…” to find the TC.
    Does this help?


  72. He answered the question, about a Blaze being a single object: “In a word, yes.”
    So the Blaze is comprised of objects: but “one Blaze.”

    • Hey Dal–Thanks for the reminder. Do comments posted on the pages containing the entries make you eligible to vote or must the comment be posted on the page you linked to? I posted on both to cover the bases but others may need to post on your linked page if that is where the post must be.

  73. Earlier today, Locolobo posted a very nice, well thought out position concerning how one might be able to solve the puzzle. The jury is still out on if it is the way. What follows, I hope is read in the same vein. I’d like to talk about confidence.
    If you are old enough you might remember the slogan Sears used in their automotive shops back in the 80’s – “We install confidence day and night.” So what’s the gist of that phrase and could it be relevant in understanding what Mr. Fenn has said pretty much from the beginning of the search, that with confidence you could walk right up to Indulgence and pick it up? When you had your car serviced at Sears, what were they selling and what were you buying? It was more than the sum of the parts that the technicians were putting on or in your car. You were certain that the job would be done in a timely manner, that you would pay a fair price, that you would not be taken advantage of and that the repair would give you piece of mind as you went on your way down the highways and by-ways of life. It is my opinion that some of the posters here on Dal’s blog are equivocating confidence with absolute certainty. This then skews their comments concerning a BOTG campaign. At least in my mind, I can easily be comfortably certain in my solve when I get to the starting point and yet not know absolutely with exact certitude that I know all the clues we are all talking about. Hear me carefully, I am not saying that I don’t have a clue as to what they may be – it is my opinion, that until I am in the woods, I will not know with certainty what those clues are going to look like, as I have never been there before. That doesn’t mean I don’t know what to look for – just that I don’t know what or where it will be exactly. But I will know them when I see them because I have studied the poem, and all the while my confidence will be growing that I am on the right track as I tick them off my list, right up to the point of bending over and picking up the chest. Yes, it is possible to be confident and unknowing at the same time. But that is no real difficulty, as the words are not opposites in meaning.

    Hope this helps someone with their solve – good luck to all!

    • sswot,

      Thank you for the nod. You’re position stated here also is well-thought out and presented. Thank you for posting it.

       Now……I totally understand what you are saying about confidence in, or comfortable with a solution. Many have, and still are, putting BOTG with the conviction they have solved the Poem or that they will recognize the remaining clues and finish solving it once there.

      As I too have studied the Poem and as has a host of others, I confidently feel the Poem can be solved, with certainty beforehand. It will take time, willl not be easy, but it is not impossible.

      On equivocating confidence with absolute certainty, I absolutely agree there is a difference. You place BOTG based on your confidence in what you see in the Poem and in your ability to proceed once you are there……”Certainty” is the word Forrest used, not confidence! I’m pretty sure he also knows the difference and used the correct word he felt would express his thoughts.

      Concerning knowledge/familiarity with the Poem, you wrote -” But I will know them when I see them because I have studied the poem, and all the while my confidence will be growing that I am on the right track as I tick them off my list, right up to the point of bending over and picking up the chest.”

      As Seeker has asked, and I and others have reiterated, how have searchers who had first two clues solved (but didn’t know it) gone past the other seven and not recognized anything that could possibly be related to the Poem and nothing gave them pause for thought??.. ……I can’t believe that they were all newbies and had not studied the Poem somewhat indepth and at least had done a modicum of research……. If you, or I, could possibly recognize a connection, don’t you think at least one of them should have been capable of doing so??……

      Again, very good post……….Good Luck to Ya!!!!

      • Locolobo you wrote…

        “As Seeker has asked, and I and others have reiterated, how have searchers who had first two clues solved (but didn’t know it) gone past the other seven and not recognized anything that could possibly be related to the Poem and nothing gave them pause for thought??.. ……”

        Perhaps they did not give it any thought because they did not think the location they were at was a place an 80 year old man would hide a treasure chest…

        • spallies,

          So it would seem. But, if it was a place they didn’t think an 80 year old man would hide a treasure chest…..what brought them to that place? You are saying that they were at that place for reasons totally unrelated to the Chest?….. I can understand that.

          But, in addition to the ones who had solved two clues and walked past the other seven, he has also stated that searchers have been within 200′ of the chest. Are you suggesting that all were at that location for non-Chase related reasons and they all thought it was no place an 80 year old man would hide a treasure chest?……It would seem they would have to pass the clues also, to be that close.

          I really don’t think so, but if you do, I’m cool with that.

          As Seeker says, there is a reason why so many can go past the clues and/or be within that distance of the chest…..and not know it!!!!

          Good Luck to You!!

          • Locolobo…
            “You are saying that they were at that place for reasons totally unrelated to the Chest?…..

            No, I think it is related to the chest… Just not how you would think…

            “he has also stated that searchers have been within 200′ of the chest. Are you suggesting that all were at that location for non-Chase related reasons and they all thought it was no place an 80 year old man would hide a treasure chest?”……

            No, I think they were at the location for Chase related reasons…

            imo 🙂

          • Spallies,

            You wrote:

            Perhaps they did not give it any thought because they did not think the location they were at was a place an 80 year old man would hide a treasure chest…..


            No, I think it is related to the chest……


            No, I think they were at the location for Chase related reasons…


            You said they didn’t recognize clues in the area because they didn’t think it was where an 80 year old man would hide a chest….. but they went to the area because they thought the chest was there???

            OK, I’ll bite…….how did they think the chest got there?

          • Spallies,

            While I am quite certain there are those on here, or at CC, that can or would possibly want to follow your line of reasoning here….but it’s not me.

            You are making absolutely no sense to me and you are offering nothing except to say, “that’s not what I meant”, with no explanation.

            I’m not going to play twenty questions with you. It’s been fun chatting with you, but I’m outta here!!! bye bye

            Good Luck to You!

          • Locolobo…

            Think about the possibility that there are places searchers go to when they are looking for the chest that they “arrive at” but are not expecting the chest to be there…

            Sorry for any confusion goodnight…

        • When I settled on an area to investigate deeply, I searched the archives for any hints that someone else had the same notion. I was relieved that the only two I found amounted to:

          -we had given up on the search, and went to [….] just to see the […]


          -once we got to the area, it just didn’t strike us as a place that would be special to Forrest at all, so instead we went to [….]

          The first ones got within a few hundred feet of my target, best as I can tell.

          I suspect that happens a lot. I know I will have a recreational backup plan unrelated to the search once I rule out my hidey spot. Many of the search areas are too cool to just leave if you don’t find treasure.

      • Locolobo,

        OK, I thought I had the differences clear in my mind, but you said above, “”Certainty” is the word Forrest used, not confidence! I’m pretty sure he also knows the difference and used the correct word he felt would express his thoughts.”

        Seriously, I’m not trying to be funny, (but the puns are just a comin’) are you certain of that, because I am pretty confident he used the word confidence, or the phrase something like, “proceed with confidence”.

        Perhaps someone can find what Mr. Fenn said in a quote. I’m wondering, seriously, if he hasn’t said both phrases and that’s why there is some confusion.

        Would those of you with better memories and/or searching abilities take some time and cull Mr. Fenn’s statements concerning whether or not the word he used was certainty or confidence? If he said certainty, then what I said doesn’t hold as much water.

        • I don’t keep track of all the Quotes, I don’t feel it is my purpose in life. If my memory serves me correct he has used both words in two separate sentence’s and they were used in sentence’s about moving towards the TC. So like most things I have read created by Mr. Fenn they have double meanings and maybe more.imo

        • swwot –

          Here are the two quotes from Forrest you asked for.

          “path would not be direct for those who had no certainty of the area beforehand, but sure for the one who did.”

          “The person who finds the treasure will have studied the poem over and over, and thought, and analyzed and moved with confidence. Nothing about it will be accidental”.

          • Perfect into – thanx a million!

            Seeing them both side by side shows that a person needs to know with certainty and to move with confidence once in the area of Indulgence. It is my opinion, that you cannot know with certainty the final resting spot of indulgence until you pick it up. I’m willing to concide that not everyone will agree with me on this thoguht.

      • locolobo,

        If i may interject it is IMO that they went without confidence in their solve and that is why they got the first two correct and went on past the other seven. IMO if you don’t completely understand the third clue you might as well stay home and play Monopoly.


        • Confidence is someone own perspective or viewpoint.

          I can say, I’m good lookin’ But that would be only from my viewpoint.
          Which reminds me of the phrase… ‘in the eye of the beholder’
          Not everyone is going to have the same or even the right level of confidence. Which reminds me of another saying… ‘Jumping the gun’

  74. Just a dumb thought, but we all know that the first stanza is seemingly Forrest speaking in first person. We naturally read it that way and he knew we would. I don’t have much use for the first stanza except as an introduction, but I was wondering if it is a double-introduction. One is simply Forrest speaking and that is one introduction. The next introduction is in first person spoken from Indulgence’s perspective. He did name it after all. We have all had something (i.e. car) that we have named. We talk to it and it talks to us. Again, just a dumb off-the-wall thought.

  75. Morning all,

    Something occurred to me just about the time Randy went missing, and I’ve been sitting on it ever since. Perhaps others have thought of this, maybe even Mr. Fenn has thought of it, which wouldn’t surprise me.

    Imagine youself a thousand years into the future. Now, just pause and guess what language you would be speaking. As a family, we always find it so amazing that whenever a new alien is contacted in any of the Sci-fi space shows, they always speak American English.

    Now consider that a thousand years ago, English didn’t sound anything like it does now. Words come and go, and meanings change over time. Words like gay, which used to mean happy now means you are a homosexual. Words and languages are always evolving.

    If Mr. Fenn has thought of everything, then a thousand years from now, how can the poem be used to solve the puzzle? Who in a thousand years would be studying “old American” and how would that help them find the chest?

    • That’s an interesting point. We had to study Chaucer’s Canterbury Tales at school; the work is less than 700 years old and it’s very hard to understand – half way to being another language. Beowulf (around 1000 years old – give or take) is almost completely unrecognizable as English.

      If the chest is still around in 1000 years, it’ll be the Ancient English scholars who’ll have a distinct advantage. But of course it’s a purely hypothetical exercise because there’s no way Indulgence will still be in its hiding place after 2016 – I’ll make sure of that! 😉

      • As a side note, I think it’s interesting that the poem’s language is also slightly old-fashioned. “Tarry” has generally fallen out of use, and some of the syntax has echos of earlier times.

    • “Words come and go, and meanings change over time.”

      Wassup with that?

      I probably didn’t even use that correctly. lol… and as Goofy reminded me just the other day… Colloquially is an interesting word.
      Good post swwot.

      • You beat me to it, Seeker. I was going to say, “Wassup dawg?” I’m sure the younger people would know a lot more. There’s been many times I would ask my kids what things meant or look up Urban Dictionary. Uh, oh…I think I’m giving my age away! 🙂

  76. I just wanted to say that I have little time to catch up on the blog chatter the last few days, but tonight I got to scan over some of the comments from last night and this morning. A lot of nice discussions. Actually some key points were ones I had made two or three days ago, then I vacillated but come back to them. So it is nice to see a oneness of thought. Maybe I will have something to contribute tomorrow.

    Spallies was one to pick out from today, but I also usually like the thoughts of Pops, and RC. Good thinkers.


  77. Here are my thoughts on the the little girl from India, which I have not seen reflected above.

    Like many, I believe the poem to be a simple set of a directions guiding the reader to a specific point in a sequential manner. I also think everyone understands the care with which FF writes any particular word. When answering Jenny’s question, it’s important to determine what he means by “closer.” The two camps are largely:

    1) “Closer” means closer to locating the treasurer. This is where Dal and many others fall, which would imply BOTG for clues 3-9 is very important. I find it difficult to fathom that FF would create such a significant limitation on the search. This sucks the wind out of the sails for any person, anywhere, who does not have means to make any (or many) trips. Additionally, my instinct is that it is very difficult to have 7 clues to geographic locations that have existed for 100 years and may exist for another 100 years that would not be visible on Google Earth.

    2) “Closer” means closer in physical proximity to the chest from India. This interpretation relies on the fact that the direction of clues 3-9 are all farther away from India than clues 1 and 2. However, we should thank Jenny (insert sarcasm) for selecting a hypothetical location that is almost on the exact other side of the globe from the Rocky Mountains, which adds a great deal of difficulty, if not impossibility, in making such a determination with any reasonable certainty (seriously Jenny, you could have gone with Brazil or Bosnia). Thus, given the geographical variation and difficulty of making a determination of shortest route for a given location within India (as others have discussed in detail), it seems unlikely that FF is making a directional statement.

    I nevertheless see strong arguments in both, but I cannot come to terms with either approach (you can make your own determination as to the efficacy of scenarios 1 or 2, but neither is particularly convincing to me). So I would propose interpretation 3 (which is admittedly contrary to my various ongoing solves):

    3) Clues 1 and 2 of the poem narrow the search to a geographic area, rather than to particular points (think, for example, a state, park, basin, cauldron, etc.). Because TLGFI cannot leave India in the hypothetical scenario, she can not get “closer” to the chest than the boundaries of the geographic area. Clues 3-9 would all be contained WITHIN the geographic area, and thus all FARTHER from India (or any other place, which is why I believe this interpretation is applicable). Clues 3-9 would still be apparent on a map (a good map, obviously) and the relative location of “India” (or any particular point) would not matter.

    Anyway, this is the only reading of FF’s response that I can thoroughly rationalize so far, and this is not done to “fit a solve.” Rather, it’s the only way this makes sense to me. Obviously this is only my opinion, but I may actually start exploring solves with this in mind…

    I’d be interested in the thoughts of others, but I’d love to ask FF if his answer would be the same in other hypothetical locations…

  78. I would rather know where I am going than to have the map for if I know where I am going I know what map I need, but if do not know where I am headed, even with the correct map, I am lost. This is my opinion.RC

  79. I was sitting here just letting my mind roll things around a bit.
    Suddenly it hit me. Forrest said nothing about water other than he knows the chest is wet. In the interview that was posted above. I think this is a untended clue. In my mind it means that WWWH and CD are some distance from Hob.
    Along the lines of Hob being within 500′ to 200′ from the chest. Lends to the line of thought that the remaining clues are within close proximity to Hob and the chest. Could the remaining clues be used to create a good map? This will require botg and a keen eye for the objects representing the remaining clues.
    Having a map of that area one could then mark off the objects with lines to form the X marks the spot. Just mho

    • “he knows the chest is wet”

      Is that what he said?

      Or was it “he knows the chest is whet”?

      As in a thing that stimulates appetite or desire…

      Or was it “he knows the chest is whet”?

      As in sharpen the blade of…

      Or was it all three?

  80. To me it appears the poem was written from his visual recollection with the use of a map. Some of his words he transposed with synonyms; Which ones are those? It takes some time to read through his poem and insert those in it’s perspective places.

    • Sorry Debi, That was rude of me not to introduce my elephant. Her name is Brown. I think she ate the 3rd clue in the poem. She certainly looks like she did & has that guilty look on her face.
      No one has figured out the third clue & I can see why now.
      She’s not talking & neither is Forrest, about the 3rd clue.
      Have a good night!

      • I will nick name your Elephant “Grace.” I don’t think she is a White Elephant! Dig through the piles to find tidbits of the third clue.!

        • Well she is graceful for an elephant.
          OK, I give up looking through piles & all I got in return are stinky hands.
          I was assuming you meant those piles, right?

  81. I think I may have an idea why some of us are winding up in that spot. I am thinking Mr. Fenn is having us go in there because that is his favorite fishing hole. I do think the poem is difficult to decipher because we are going as we understand the clues. But what if the poem was structured to both get us in his fishing spot, and the treasure chest. I am talking about double meaning in the words. One set of clues takes you to the fishing spot, the other set( same clues, different meaning) take you to the chest. There is the possibility that the chest,and his favorite fishing spot are not too far from each other but not in the same vicinity. It is my opinion and opinion only. RC.

  82. Good Morning my Friends, I pray everyone is well, I wanted to let everyone know that my family and had a great trip in our TTOTC, we saw some amazing things, of course the first place we went was to check out the old homestead and the cellar as I stated in my thoughts on a possible solve, I used some very good equipment at and around the area, had some great conversations with my family, at the end of day two my young daughter looked at me said, Daddy do you really think it could be this simple and I thought for minute and realized she was right, I then kinda backtracked and saw something that really got my attention,( I shared my thoughts with all of you) As I made my little trek to that place I was stopped by a very nice elder person of the are, he was a symbolic person so to speak, he asked where we headed in a very sincere way so I told him, he smiled and said I haven’t seen anyone ask about that place before and I quote: Take this with you just in case, I dint hesitate to take this object because of the sincerety of his voice, so we moved on, it wasn’t far to get to this truly tranquil place, once there I paid my respects, ( I am disabled Veteran of Iraqi Freedom, Marine Corps 2001 until 2009) My disability runs deep but not physically).. While I was paying my respects I saw the most majestic thing I have ever seen, ( not the TC ) it made me feel week and I started to cry, my family grabbed me and gave me comfort, now as we made our way back to the car we decided to grab some food, and then my wife discovered that her Mother had drawn ill, phone service was limited where we were, and there is also to much snow right now for us to have gone any further, so we made our journey home and now I am talking to you now, I will be flying back out soon, bur right now I have some things at home to deal with more important right now, I am not saying that I have a final solve by any means at all, but what I will say is that trip has been Amazing, my family feel connected more now than we ever have, I sent Forrest a couple pictures a while back to show him how much fun we have had,( I know Forrest like to read that kind of stuff).. Looking forward to reading up on a few things now.. Safe journeys my Friends and God Speed….. Semper Fidelis, Maiben

    • Can you share what the object he gave you was?
      Thank you for sharing your story, and thank you for your service.
      (I lost a brother in Vietnam and my father gave his right arm in WWII)

      • Ill be glad to tell you, he gave me a map of a great place to take your family with beautiful views, but it didn’t open until April, well it really put the icing on my cake of an alternate rout to get to where I REALLY needed to go, so I let my traing kick in and made the journey alone, my wife and young daughter could not get there this time of the year but I could, it was really cold but it was worth every step of it, I didn’t really have to pack much, I did take my Molly pack with my E-TOOL attached to it, and of course a compass so I could keep my bearings on a coordinate that someone gave me in a picture, it was the best hike I have ever done and I have a few in my life!

  83. I’m attempting to reduce the 9 sentences and/or the 6 stanzas. In an earlier post I mentioned my belief that the 9 sentences are the first set of clues. The solution can then be applied to the poem directly, using the poem as directions.

    “Reducing the sentences or stanza’s”
    I’ve tried “subtracting” one line from another, one stanza from another, but my methods (one method is removing duplicate letters) don’t leave me much, and I’m so bad at anagrams. I’m looking for other methods of “reducing” the poem lines. Any thoughts? Any words of encouragement?

  84. It is my opinion that you are on the right track, but trying to make it too complicated. Using the 9 sentences as the nine clues (to me) is the correct approach. Now figure out what there is within each sentence that is important.
    Solve this, and you will solve the puzzle. Nine sentences = 9 clues.

    • I highly respect your thoughts as well as Mikes on a place of interest my friend, but I can agree the journey couldn’t be made, or at least not while I was there, but soon I would imagine a wondering mind could get in the area with the tools in hand to get the job done, you are also a very intelligent mind.. Good Luck in your TTOTC

      • IMO I will also have to agree with COME ON SPRING, of course that’s when it opens up, I think now that there a few of us who have a good idea of a solve, or maybe some ones already been there, my wife is yelling at me to stop laughing, I can be a real comedian, but sometimes when you need to do something bad enough you just brave through it and hope the reward outweighs the risk..

  85. Here something interesting, Relates to ff talking about the Coliolls effect…(from wikipedia…)

    The snow-capped Never Summer Mountains are found in the west side of the park. Here the south-trending Continental Divide takes a brief sharp northward loop, which creates an interesting reverse scenario where the Pacific Basin is on the east side of the divide and the Atlantic Basin on the west.

  86. Hummmm. Never Summer Mountains…… sounds like a place that warm water would not be found, as in frozen.

    • Heres some more interesting info about this area from wikipedia…

      In May 2003 a 100-foot section of ‘the ditch’ breached about 2.4 miles (3.9 km) south of La Poudre Pass, causing the water to cascade down the slopes and into the River. The flood left a visible scar on the mountainside: 20,000 trees were downed and 47,600 cubic yards of debris ended up in the Lulu Creek .

      Of course ff’s blaze is thought be exist before this time period.
      I think ‘the Slide’ in Mt, near lake Hebgen is bigger.

      • That right in my neck of the woods, as I am from Loveland. Thanks for the local history lesson. I think I will bring the family to check out the ghost towns in the Never Summer Mountains. 🙂

        • Colomtnman, If you and the family make it there, would you mind taking lots of pictures and posting them. I’ve been very interested in that area especially the area slightly north named “little yellowstone”

    • DOES ANYONE HAVE OR REAd the book “100 hikes in New Mexico” . I know TC is off trail, but this mightt ELIMINATE 100 places…. WhaT-Da think?

  87. My wife have just had a very long discussion on our trip so I have decided to share this with you.. In this possible solve everything has a reason and falls into place and with some research it will for you also.. I am curious to who can put the pieces together… The settlement at Daniels pass in Cheyenne canyon ( you use use google eath, I solved the encryption for you to save you some time for the blaze, after you solve the encryption for Daniels pass blaze in CO it reads On the downhill side of the trail, but loosely fastened to the bottom of a tree, if you there you can see it but not from GE.. Have fun and let me hear your thoughts!!

    • BTW if you are there IMO you that you would smell Pine and sagebrush, and maybe even pinyon nuts, and I would think its wet..

    • @maiben re possible hidey spot/solve, looks a little to populated, not very private or personal, but then GE does that, takes BOTG…thanks for sharing…how’d you arrive there, care to elaborate?

  88. Not to be discouraging, I could be wrong. Imho I do not think WWWH has anything to do with water and brown trout. I beat that ideal to death. Example: I researched the record for the biggest brown trout caught in each of the four states. Nothing matched up with canyon down or no place for the meek

    • Why would record sized catches have to be HoB? Why not the fact that Brown Trout are not native species and were stocked (new home) in the late 1800’s? IMO

  89. In an attempt to stir a conversation that involves the poem purist and botg groups alike. As well as the 9 line group vs, the 9 sentence group { Alien Egg theorist need not apply }. The poem’s stanza two reads;

    Begin it where warm waters halt And take it in the canyon down, Not far, but to far to walk. Put in below the home of Brown. As we all know. While most agree this stanza may provide at least 4 clues, Does it contain 4 answers to what those clues refer to?

    Are we looking for 9 clues or what the answers to those clues refer to?

    Take this stanza as, the first three line possibly having 3 clues to reveal a single answers or a place the clues refer to. Take the next line as another clue and/or single answer.
    Take stanza 3 as four clues that refer to a single answer or location.
    And stanza 4 as two clues to give a single location or answer.

    9 clues used with 4 answers to the places the clues refer to… Hypothetically.

    The same can be surmised with the use of 9 sentences as 9 clues and still having less or even more answers to what the clues refer to.

    How many places do the clues refer to?

    • Hello Seeker, I will assure you that IMO there are 9 sentences and 9 clues that will get you there, do yourself this favor, don’t get stuck on THOB like many have, IMO it was not needed to get there. But a good set of boots and a couple pair of dry socks, a good pack and E-Tool were needed to get there!

      • I forget about a compass, snow likes to cover things up except for magnetic north, I good GPS would be better but I am little old school you could say.

      • That great.. I can throw out hoB as useless. and we know we’re looking for 9 clues. But the questions was of, how many “places” do the 9 clues refer to?

      • Believe it or not, Seeker, it’s not easy to answer that. If you’re talking places with city limits, then very few. If you’re talking “areas” then quite a few more. I can come up with at least 8 (as a mix or defined places and more general areas). But I don’t think that will help you much.

        • Place the clues refer to… Do you see for example… Wwh-tintcd-nfbtftw as three clue = one place. Size doesn’t matter or so I hear anyways.

          If folks indicated the first two clues. The little girl from India can’t get past the first two clues, and some may have 4 clue etc. How many places are we seemingly talking about?

    • Seeker,

      IMO: The clues in the poem each refer to multiple ‘things’ (i. e. answers) – location, direction, distance. Some clues I have found up to four ‘things’.

      Remember, Forrest has said that in TTOTC there are hints to the clues. But IMO, this does not necessarily mean hints to each of what may be multiple answers to those clues, just one of the them. Since Forrest is an admitted wordsmith, this is also a hint – each word can have multiple meanings, both in context and assumption. IMO, this is also linked to his comment about letting a child read the poem.

      For example – what is the meaning of the word “boot”? Most would say initially, a piece of foot apparel. Next, to throw out. How about referring to a shape? Oh, does that shape lead one to think about Italy? What is “boot” in Italian? Avvio? or is it lo stivale? Are these place names in the RM? Or, did Forrest mean for us to look for something shaped like a boot? about the name of a boot company? (…yikes! This can get out of hand quickly). IMO, this is where the TTOTC comes in. The hints help us to narrow the possibilities.

      BTW, God Bless all you searchers!

      Wisconsin Mike

    • Seeker, you’re going to give yourself a headache on this one. I say that because I can totally see what you’re saying. And, believe it to be true. Different “levels” in the poem, may use one line to answer to different parts of the poem, or different levels if that’s how you see the poem.
      However one gets the numbers could be 1 level, needed to be used to get coordinates, level 2 , to find the path, level 3. One line may be used in each level or maybe not in any, making it a support line.
      I think we all can see that some lines can have more than one way to solve, why is that? Different levels would answer that.
      Back to the wheel Seeker…

      • Well Charlie, you basically called me out. You’re correct. Let’s say the lgfi can not get past the second clue because the poem may only be tell of two “places” with the third place being the spot the chest lays in wait.

        We also can see that at least one clue may not be a place.. Because of the when fenn was a kid / clue comment.

        Or 6 clues being something other than a place and more referring to an object. Sure that object would be at a place but the clues are what it refers to only.

        As you stated.. There are many scenario to this… But it can lead to a different approach to the poem other than 9 line.. 9 sentences.. 9 clues to 9 places etc.

        At least that was my intention… But after 5 years, folks seem dead tight in their ways.

        Sometimes when your stuck in the mud you need to back up to rock forwards.

    • Wow Seeker you really stirred up the hornets nest on this one. I don’t know why I spent so much time on trying to discover nine clues when I could do it for less.

      To answer you with a solve that considers nothing as worthless and every word valuable I have nine verifiable locations with names, names that someone else created. And just for good measure one that has no name, at least that I have found to date.I could double that number easily if I where to include names of NF,NP, state, creek ect. There are few words that are not of value. IMO

      • Man, has it been 5 years already. What happened, where am I….
        Luckily, I’m not stuck in my ways. Stuck at one very favorable spot, yes. I guess I’m lucky in the fact that I’m within a 1′ square. It’s either there or it’s not. No searching around. Just the 5 mile hike back to the car sucks…
        I’ll be e-mailing you soon, I got some info as far as med. wheel and the….well I’ll just e-mail. Found some stuff that has to be interpreted as being done by design. I could almost say for a fact that there are different levels and different ways to solve. Love solving the poem, opens up so many different avenues.
        It’s puzzles like this that make me happy I’m not too smart.:)

          • He rode a horse Jake. He’s not getting far with the weight of the treasure, or even half. He needs to get far enough away though. I don’t think he made it to difficult for himself. He rode a horse, he walked on his own for less than a mile, IMO. also, LINE 7 , imo, tells you that 4 walk. Maybe he rode a cow, I don’t know, I think a horse. (llama, camel, moose, insert favorite 4 legged animal I guess). Him saying “to far to walk” alone seems like he didn’t do the walking. If you’re on the WOLF side of thinking, ( to far to, sounds like 2:42) actually the first part of that line is saying “not” far (or 4), so taking out the “far” you’re left with “but to to walk”,or, but 4 walk.:)

          • Sorry to burst your bubble char,
            Forrest: The person who finds the treasure will be the one who solved the clues in my poem and walked to it.
            Good luck!

          • Your welcome threerocks,
            I don’t want to see someone put themselves in danger and/or spend allot of money looking for the treasure in a place it is not even though it may increase my chances slightly.

          • Jake,
            Interesting that f recommends to read the book (bog?), read the poem many times(bog?), read the book looking for hints to help with the clues(bog?).

            I think our young girl in India should keep on with the solve.

          • Char,
            I suppose you may have to hike 5 miles this time of year if there is no way to get a car close enough where you had to hike 2 miles or less. But as far as hiking 5 miles from where your car is would be too long a distance to make 2 trips in one afternoon, where talking 20 miles total. On bare pavement I walk 20 minute miles. But in the woods in changing elevation could take 30 minutes or more a mile IMO. Say F walked 25 minute mile. 25min x 20miles divide by 60min = 8.3 hours, this time is not including hiding the chest, eating & maybe having to relieve yourself. So you may be right considering the conditions NOW as long as there is a driveable trail there in the summer.

          • Hello Charlie. Mr. Fenn said on Fundamental Guidelines. ‘Don’t search anywhere an 80 year old man could not carry a heavy backpack.’ Would he ride a horse while carrying a heavy backpack? With the same thought, to take two trips?

          • Good point pdenver,
            Why would you take 2 trips if you had a horse or cow unless you want to stop some where & squeeze a glass of milk out. Hurry up, it’s turning into cheeeese. Smile!

    • To answer your question Seeker, I believe the clues refer to three places. The beginning, a waypoint, and the end. So then one way of looking at the poem would be; WWWH is the beginning, HOB is the waypoint, and the Blaze is the end.

      • Hey Goofy and I’ll add Uken2it, as i just read both your comments.
        You both seem to be saying the same… whether exact or not, or even what you look at as a clue or hint doesn’t matter either. The point I was making; is a clue an answer?
        Even if we discover exactly what is a clue in the poem… we still need to now what the ‘answer to it is’ or ‘what it refers to’. But if we only read a line as a clue and an answers both, we could be fooling ourselves. And as I see it, dismissing 1/2 the poem.

        Even though I have made claims I don’t look at 9 clues to 9 lines, I find/catch myself guilty of doing just that as well, because it simple to see it that way, the easiest way to read directions..But seems to be flawed imo.
        Yet when I expand my thoughts [ even further ] to other possibilities ~ such as “The beginning, a waypoint, and the end.” and ” see 3 lines 3 hints I find an answer that is common to all, and consider that the clue.”
        as you two stated.
        The poetic properties start to show themselves… and counting clues no longer matters. a clue is just a clue no matter how many lines involved. But an answer is what takes you there, No matter how many answers there are… if that makes any sense.

        Seems, even if, could be, other possibilities etc. are imo.

        • Seeker,
          If I see 3 lines hinting at answers, I try to reconcile the hints finding a commonality=answer. I do not distract myself with “9” anything. 9 might be a check number when I think I have a solve.

          I agree that we have no need to distract ourselves with counts yet. F said read, read not count count.

    • Seeker,
      I am surprised to hear you attribute 6? Clues to second stanza. When I see 3 lines 3 hints I find an answer that is common to all, and consider that the clue. But I have no complete solution nor the chest so all is IMO.

  90. IMO seven places with 8 being the final place or thing.. HOB is really useless its just not needed

    • Sorry, maiben, but I disagree. HOB is absolutely vital, IMO. It’s like the keystone of the whole puzzle (but not the word that is key!).

      • You could be right my friend, it could be an important clue, or maybe its just factor to a clue, just depends on how it has been solved..

        • Sorry vox, have to agree with maiben on this one. HoB is just to “general” to be a keystone to the whole puzzle, IMO, not like the blaze.

          • Charlie, I agree that the blaze is critical, but IMO, no HOB = no blaze (at least not the correct one). Also, HOB verifies WWWH, so you know you’re on the right track.

          • Now you see vox, I have to agree with you there. I do have a HoB, and my spot is North of that, since I’m walking South means below. But the blaze is more “specific”, at least to me. But, yes, without HoB, no blaze.
            As far as tied in with WWWH, kinda. For me.
            With one way in or out, pretty much my HoB is drawing nigh as I go. I don’t think we disagree there, I think we disagree in that HoB is not a “path” clue for me. My path is: WWWH, into canyon, thru “no trespassing” gate, to my blaze.
            Confusing thing is that line 8 IS a coordinate clue for me and helps with my latitude.

  91. Like FF said, if you KNOW where HOB is why worry about WWWH. But WWWH and everything before HOB definitely could help you be confident that your HOB is correct, especially if the spot south of HOB is no place for the meek! IMO HOB is one part of clue number two, which marks a part of the blaze…IMO the blaze is the path from WWWH to Heavy loads and Water High. From WWWH to Water High is all clue two in my latest and greatest solve.

    • Big M, you may be onto something! 😉

      Although we have a different take on clue numbers after HOB, you and I may be looking at similar paths.

  92. Maiben

    I am sorry, I just can not follow your logic. Whether WWWH is clue #1 or #2 is not important at this moment. Let’s assume that it is #1. You find a WWWH.
    You “Take it in a canyon down” (south or elevation) – You go a certain distance – “Not far, but too far to walk”. You put in below the home of brown. If you discount hoB, you are going to be going down your canyon forever, or getting out either too soon, or too late. Either way, you will miss your”meek” location, and none of the rest of the clues will fall into place.

    If I am wrong, show me how you are right.

    Good luck in your search.


    • @JD et al couldn’t ‘down’ = down stream, which could be headed north or any direction, just simply down stream….P.S JD Thanks for sharing your thoughts on ‘look quickly down’ the other day. I asked because it seemed to me you were discovering your ‘blaze’ by using GE, not sure if true? Best, cq

    • JD,

      Exactly couldn’t agree with you more! This is exactly why as ff has said some have identified the first two clues to me in an email then went right on past the other seven.

      I also agree with you that we shouldn’t be so consumed with what the nine clues are and instead focus on understanding the meaning of the poem and the places it is trying to convey.

      In my opinion what we are missing from the line “Put in below the home of Brown” is that the most important part of that line is “put in” not home of Brown at that stage of the your hunt. Because “put in” is another halt – direction change in my opinion, and too many people keep going down the canyon looking for Brown instead of “put in’s”

      I have a different view than most on what “Brown” is, not to say that i am correct in my theory but it sure makes a lot of sense once you look at the “Big Picture”.


  93. Hello JD, I left you some ideas on your post, ill try and be as clear as possible without pleading the 5th, If you are in or on your canyon down, may be you will just go right by HOB, guess it depends from what angle or tool you are using, as far as meek is concerned you will know that for sure when you get to it, I know for sure its meek to me, maybe we are not thinking of the same place, I certainly think we are as well as one other person, hey everyone thinks they have a solve but only one will the one, if anyone ever decides that its won.. Semper Fidelis my friend.. Maiben PS not everything needs to wait until Spring or April for that matter.

  94. Cholly – Glad to help. Yes, I can see my blaze on GE or on my Topo map…will see it in person next month (I hope) Yes, you could go any direstion as long as you are going downstream (losing elevation)


    If you do not “put in below the hoB”, how can you be sure that your “meek” location is the correct one?

    • Maybe we can meet each other in April, it would save on a lot of walking then.. I like meeting new friends, Ill bring my pack and E-tool. (shovel)

  95. seannm

    I 100% agree. Both are important. The change of direction, and where that change is made…BELOW hoB…which leads you directly to the MEEK location.

    • Agreed! This is why I call HOB the keystone. It’s the major change of direction, without which there’s no hope of finding the blaze, IMO.

      • Hey, pdenver I wouldn’t necessary think Peoria va Toledo a misquote, ff says things to prank us and I’ve heard him tell one joke where it’s a little girl who ask a question and then later it’s a little boy who ask, so he does change things around. But did you notice the ‘in my car’ vs ‘from my car’ regarding the two trips, now I hope that is writer/interviewer vs interviewee mistake!

        Thanks Dal, good article from the creator of People and a neighbor, impressive! Did the NPR article come out yet?

        • Hello Cholly. I hadn’t notice the “in my car” vs. “from my car” comment. Good eyes. The thought of two trips “in my car” seems really strange. Why would it take Mr. Fenn two trips “in his car” to hide the treasure in one afternoon? A misquote? Perhaps it’s going to be something that’s going to drive me crazy and wonder if it means anything. Oh, I think I feel a headache coming on. 🙂

    • Thank you for posting the article Dal. I glad that Forrest doesn’t feel responsible. He isn’t responsible for Randy’s actions. The article was well written and provided insight into the costs associated in searching. The amount of resources put in looking for Randy is so high (thousands) and the family is askng for more searchers. I believe Linda Bilyeu said that the searchers are fatigued. That she feels that she isn’t making progress and that new searchers are needed with fresh set of eyes. All I can say is Good Luck! I need to spend more time with my family and hobby (The Chase) for my own health. I wish the Bilyeu family the best!

    • two things to note;

      1) Who else knows where the treasure is buried?
      I never said it was buried. I’ve avoided that word. I hid it. I don’t mean to imply that it isn’t buried. I just didn’t want to give that as a clue.

      It took me two trips in my car to hide the treasure.

      And I can tell you an 80-year-old man is not going to make a trip into a canyon, then come up and go down again. As for who else knows, I’m the only one. My wife doesn’t know.

      two trips from car in one afternoon / or / two trips in car?

      2) Have you been back to the site since hiding the chest?
      No, but I could go if I wanted to, even at 85. One of my clues is that it’s above 5,000 feet and below 10,200 feet. I said that because people were climbing up to the tops of mountains.

      The biggest clue of all is: Don’t look for the treasure any place where an 80-year-old man could not have taken it.

      That eliminates half the places where people are looking.

      the biggest clue of all is ……..

      Who else knows where the treasure is buried?
      I never said it was buried. I’ve avoided that word. I hid it. I don’t mean to imply that it isn’t buried. I just didn’t want to give that as a clue. It took me two trips in my car to hide the treasure. And I can tell you an 80-year-old man is not going to make a trip into a canyon, then come up and go down again. As for who else knows, I’m the only one. My wife doesn’t know.

      Does it seem he has “canned answers for most of the questions? And maybe sometimes just gets things a little twisted when giving an answer?

  96. Voxpops

    Could not agree more. I am going down a canyon. I need to “put in” BELOW the hoB. If I could not identify hoB, I could either put in ABOVE or BELOW where I need to put in. Literally, If I put in above my hoB I wind up above a mountain, by putting in BELOW, I wind up on the exact opposite side of this mountain. Were I to have looked for my blaze on the ABOVE side, I would have NEVER found it.

    Solve the puzzle (poem) step-by-step. No shortcuts. EVERY (well almost every) word has meaning.

    • @Michael, yup. And dates and times. alpha/numeric. For a hint, look to the book. Where he actually says “degree”. (environmentalists to some degree).
      If you have alpha/numeric, environmentalists (+) to = __ degree. Latitude.
      You will also get the same number in the first two “path” clues. Lines 5 & 6. Making lines 5 & 6 coordinate clue lines also. Confused? Like Seeker said, 1 line could be multiple clues or vice-versa. (one clue could be many lines). Need to solve the whole poem, that will get you the “9” clue lines of the path, IMO.

    • After WWWH and HOB I don’t count clues really, Michael. But I certainly don’t ignore stanzas 5 and 6.

      As for long/lat – yes they are in the poem.

  97. Dal

    Thanks for the post. SO sorry that some blame Forrest. Glad that he feels no blame. Randy found his treasure, just not the one he was looking for.

  98. And voxpops, do you find real lat long coordinates in the poem, or just numbers that you interpret as coordinates?…I find numbers too, but not coordinates. Did I hear you say you are overseas earlier?

    • The way the descriptive clues reinforce the numbers leads me to believe they’re real coordinates.

      I’m not overseas, but I expect to be heading out of the country soon after this final search.

  99. In search of an honest and trustworthy Montana searcher. Please reply to this post for more information.

    • M Henry,
      I have tried this approach & got many, many emails. Unfortunately allot of the emails I got were from people that had stated they may have thought it was in my location anyway, you know your location. Good luck with that. I decided not to pursue this approach anymore after deciding there are lots of people out there to take the credit & the prize of finding it, leaving you out of the scene.

  100. BTW, did I mention I went to my location in late December, and I had to chain up all four tires on my 4×4 pick up to go the last five miles? I BARELY made it back there…only to be disalusioned by the 15 inches of powdery snow that covered everything…a sea of white makes it VERY difficult to find the landmarks from GE research. Coordinates for a GPS would have been helpful!!

    • That’s a real issue. Just finding the trail is made five times as hard in snow. It’s a difficult judgment call if planning to go before the melt.

  101. Howdy folks…2016 seems to be ramping up as a very busy searching season…lots of confidence out there!!! I wish a safe and prosperous trip to all!!

  102. You know this might be heresy, but more and more I’m wondering if the number of clues really matter. In searching for something the only thing that really matters is location and direction. The poem presumably provides a starting point and an ending point with locations and directions in between. Is a clue a location direction pair? Locations only? Directions only? Some random combination of the above? I can’t get location direction pairs to work out in the context of nine clues and I also can’t see patterns that emerge as nine locations and/or directions. I see a flow of one idea to the next with a start, middle, and end. Is it possible we are getting too hung up