Home of Brown…


This is for a discussion about “the home of Brown” in Forrest’s poem.

Got an HOB that didn’t work out…or maybe you need an HOB for a certain area…or perhaps you have an idea that needs some fleshing out..

This is the place to discuss all things HOB…


543 thoughts on “Home of Brown…

    • I’d imagine that going up Sawmill Mt would be a little steep for FF. I’m curious where your wwh is in relation to this…

      • I agree Tom. My WWWH was not actually up at the top. It was up a road that could be driven…
        I used that WWWH and went in a couple other directions as well…nothing panned out for me.
        I don’t really think any solution in that area is very likely. Red River is an interesting area but it’s hard to find a place that might be “special” to Forrest.

        • I agree, Dal. I visited the Red River ( was there for a grand total of about 20 minutes) and the Questa area, as well as Valle Vidal when metes and bounds were part of my solve. The BOTG was so completely different from anything online. The drive to Valle Vidal was amazing and getting to see Comanche Point was the highlight for me. Once we got to the campground it took all of fifteen minutes to realize that the spot that I thought was an x was really a super dense cluster of plants along the creek. We turned around and did the long drive back. In fact, most of our trip was like that.

    • Dal, I had this one but not sure now if it will stand the test of time. Put in as in ‘boat ramp’ below the Browns Wildlife. The Gates of Lodore. 40.727157, -108.886998

      • I went there. Beautiful also its possible I missed something but I’m pretty thorough (I think). Things look very different when you are on the ground. Fun fact the gates of Lodore is actually named for another poem about nature.

        Walked a few miles up both banks. Arranged some animal bones in spooky ways so if you happen to check my work you are welcome for the nightmares.

  1. HOB describes a placename. That is why Brown is capitalized. Once the first clue is solved, (partially) locating everything from www to HOB is relatively straightforward…It all makes perfect sense…the problem begins at the blaze….we must have boots on the ground to locate it…and it is undefined ( so far anyways ) … Once the blaze is found, the remainder of the poem will take us to the chest. This is of course, all my humble opinion…but I am so close I can taste it!!Good luck to us all… we will need it. Nobody is going to find the chest over spring break…because the blaze is not going to be as easy to find as HOB was…IMO

    • @Michael D – it might be that home of Brown is not a capitalized meaning at all, but poetic liberty. For example, it may be a sign on a path marking a 450 year old ponderosa tree that is meaningful to the location. A person who likes to play with words in poetry may see humor in this, where ponderosa comes from ponderous, and ponderous means brown study. Such a sign may be even more meaningful to the poet when searching for a word that rhymes with “south”, or perhaps “down”, like on a map.

      • Of course, you are right. It may not be. But because I have what I believe is eight of the nine clues solved, I tend to believe that brown is a place. Obviously, I don’t have the chest. So I could be absolutely mistaken.

    • Nouns name people, places, and things. A proper noun (i.e. Brown) has two distinctive features: 1) it will name a specific [usually a one-of-a-kind] item, and 2) it will begin with a capital letter no matter where it occurs in a sentence. I believe FF is painting an actual picture of the treasure location, using words as his brush strokes.

    • MichaelD:
      It is my belief that FF ‘draws a picture’ of what this blaze may be in TTOTC. See if you can find what I saw….

          • I have a blaze that may be associated with the images described in your post but have not found the drawing references you mentioned. Visible from Google Pro as well, or a good map. Not really in the boots-on-the-ground camp as I would not be able to leave home with confidence. My trip is coming up so I will keep looking for the reference(s)…

  2. Put in below the home of Brown. Okay,… I’m going to give away (with this one example) part of the ‘thinking’ process I’m using to solve the poem. Molly Brown (The Unsinkable Molly Brown – husband was a miner) lived in a mansion in Colorado (CO.) If I “…put” (write) the word “in” below the “…home of Brown” (CO) I get ‘Coin.’ Also, “Coin” unscrambles to “icon”… and Molly was certainly iconic. Just a thought.

    • By that logic Begin “it’ where warm waters halt… First letters of answer should be It.

      And take “itinthe” canyon down would be next….. But it doesn’t make sense.

      Problem is we are all guilty of picking what works and then disregarding the rule when it doesn’t work for another part of the poem.

      Anagrams are also messy … So many words can come from them. Plus remember to add a “joker” letter. (4 cards and a joker)


  3. “I envy no man that knows more than myself and pity them that know less.”

    Has there been some discussion regarding Sir Thomas Brown, who was quoted at the beginning of the “Journal of a Trapper” by Osborne Russell?

    My $.02 ante…will someone raise me?

    ~ Wisconsin Mike

  4. I like the way you are thinking but I think you are reading too much into it. The poem is straightforward. All it takes is a little imagination. And a good map. Or Google Earth. Up to a certain point that is. Then it requires a little more imagination and a whole lot of good old-fashioned work. All is in my opinion of course.

  5. Also, in my opinion of course, if you knew where home of brown was it would not take you directly to the chest. But it would take you directly to where the chest is. You would still have to find the Blaze, and Institute the rest of the poem in order to find the chest.

    • I agree Michael. I think Forrest’s remark about going right to the treasure if he told you where the HOB was, was a bit of a flippant response to a question. You still have to know what meek is and the blaze plus some BOTG searching.

  6. I feel this isn’t anything named on a map, that’s the reasons the girl in India couldn’t get passed the first few clue.

    I am going to throw out three of the old classics, but still my favorites:

    Below where von Behr trout, or as known as brown trout, inhabit or return to spawn. (Notice the capital “B”). Note: one definition for home from Webster is “4. a : a place of origin ;” The best time to fish for Brown trout is when they run to return home to spawn;

    The Building that was once the home of Ranger Brown in Lamar Valley; or,

    It may also refer to a place you need local knowledge of the area or see a sign (road sign, educational sign like they have throughout Yellowstone, or a name plate on a building, structure or place marker).

    • Hey the blog cut off part of my definition quote. The full quote from Webster is

      “4. a : a place of origin – salmon returning to their home to spawn”

    • I have found multiple HOB as i make my way to what I believe is the final resting place. I believe HOB is relative to where one is on the journey there.

      Love the man in the maze 23kachinas! My dad gave me a ring with it just before he died. My favorite.

        • 23kachinas, the video you posted introduced me to some of the most intricately beautiful artwork I’ve seen. Simply fun to look at. Thanks for today’s field trip to happy land. The artist had a great outlook on life 🙂

  7. I have a few theories on HOB. At first I thought it might be Molly Browns house in Colorado, but after learning more about Fenn, I thought it might be related to a Native Anerican house, like a Pueblo, for example Taos Pueblo. Fenn was also an avid fisherman and often visited areas in Yellowstone that are known for Brown Trout like Madison River.

    • I also think that the treasuries not in the chest, I think the title to the gold is there and you have to provide it to Fenn and he will then give you the treasure or tell you where it is, and this is how he would know for sure if anyone found it.

  8. IMO, HOB = RIVER I hope I can go search but it looks like I’m going to the Philippines..When I review your post and locations some believe what I do but they don’t put all the pieces together to search the area I have identified..however, they r about 200 feet away from where I will search…Has anyone searched the area by Treasure Falls, Colorado

    • I am making my way there on Wednesday to search, I love about 5 hours away. WI’ll also be searching around Piedra Falls while I am in that area.

  9. I started my solve with the “meek ” and in working one angle or idea it caused me to stumble on a Brown … A male and not a female. Then i found that this guy also ties in a couple of other “clues” not in the poem. Once placed on google earth i noticed that this location also contained WWWH , a couple of book references , and several of Forrest’s spoken hints including what he considered ” north “. Also , up a creek withou a paddle is solved here as a small dry creek that only gets filled with runoff. By accident i expanded the map out two more clicks and found a visible Omega. Inside the omega is a small shallow lake or pond. When the snow melts i might check the area of the lake or pond before i check out the main spot on the map as both are well within an hours walk from places to park along the road.

    Best of luck to everybody in the hunt .

  10. Sorry Folks , i didn’t mean to post yet but it is late here in the east. My take on ” put in below the home of Brown ” led me to a late night idea. It was ” what if ” you were actually supposed to take the first two clues and put them in after the third. The HOB puts you in a general area and then the rest of the clues lead you to the spot. In effect you would follow the clues as #3 , #1 #2 #4 #5 and so on. It works perfectly on my solve and everything followed along perfectly. Any thoughts ?

  11. Hey Forrest, I watched ” Dancing with the Stars” last night. I thought the Lion King performance was the best. Watch a think!!! 🙂

  12. Been following the comments regarding HOB. Remember, the reference to or location of HOB must stand the test of time 100 years or more from now. I suspect man-made structures, signs, legends and characters may not have the required longevity. Do I recall ff saying “all you need is the book and a good map”…. all in my humble opinion.

    • I’m with you Bigskip – will we be calling Brown Trout Brown Trout in 1000 years? I’m guessing not. So if Brown is referencing a color – why would we still call it Brown 1000 years from now? Seems more likely to me to be a proper name that will stand the test of time – but that’s my opinion.

  13. After more research, I found what is probably the most correct information; Brown trout were first introduced to the Rockies on September 15, 1890 in Nez Pearce Creek. Not the upper Firehole River that Wikipedia states. It just so happens that Nez Pearce Creek feeds into the Firehole river just north of where FF went bathing in his youth. There is a nice little parking area just off Fountain Flat Drive as you turn off the Grand Loop Road, where you could park to “put in”. Going “down” stream takes you to Firehole canyon, and of course to the Firehole Falls. This info to me are facts. How they relate to the poem is all IMO.
    Would somebody hurry up and find the chest, wherever its at, PLEASE.

      • Lisa, at this point, HOB could be anything, any where. I have made my trip to my solve but didn’t spend as much time as I wanted too. Probably won’t make second trip but I can’t get a good feeling of a new place to look that matches the poem as well, IMO. I guess I’m hard headed. I would like to check out Wraith Falls, mainly because of the area it is in and the distance from the road, etc, It doesn’t fit the poem but who knows, besides FF. Another place that I couldn’t get to when I was there is the Upper Falls of Yellowstone River. The picture of “Skippy Holding A Rock” was taken there. Far side, maybe bottom of falls. Probably too hard for an 90 year old, but I haven’t been there.
        Good luck everybody. Be safe and keep an open mind. Indulgence could be right next to you. LOL

        • My place to look is not in Yellowstone.
          I posted awhile back my solve involved places and people of the Rockies ,two old maps and a Book on the history of one of the States . One clue led to another then another until I got to the end which BTW was title to the Gold .. as where it was NOT title as in a paper title.
          That took about 14 months , now I have just used GE with no history at all to see if I could use the clues to get to the same Titled place ,it took a while to work it out , but it works. I had to start from my place and work out from there to find the WWWH. That took me about two weeks . After I found that the rest fell into place.
          So both my wwwh canyon down ,blaze and Browns are different on the two solves but I no way could have found the second solve with out the first because that gave me the Title.

  14. Mark:

    Not sure about that. If the clues don’t stand the test of time, then the actual location is lost to discovery. The ultimate TC location must stand the test of time, but I suspect, so due the clues. Just my opinion.

  15. BigSkip – Perhaps these quotes will help clarify…

    Curious about the long-term fate of both the chest and the quest, I asked Fenn whether the clues in the poem will also withstand the test of time. “I am guessing the clues will stand for centuries. That was one of my basic premises, but the treasure chest will fall victim to geological phenomena just like everything else. Who can predict earthquakes, floods, mudslides, fires, tornadoes and other factors?” Fenn says.

    Q. Did the same 9 clues exist when you were a kid and to your estimation will they still exist in 100 years and 1000 years?
    A. The clues did not exist when I was a kid but most of the places the clues refer to did. I think they might still exist in 100 years but the geography probably will change before we reach the next millennia. The Rocky Mountains are still moving and associated physical changes will surely have an impact. If you are in the year 3009 it will be more difficult for you to find the treasure. f

  16. JCM:

    Great references. Thank you. I do recall them and they confirm my thinking. I accept the TC location can fall to geologic changes but ff is expecting it will be found before then. If not, it could be lost forever. Just my opinion.

  17. What if HOB is Mexico (Brown People) and the poem is a reference to Skippy drowning? “Where warm waters halt” — “Heavy loads and water high”

    • How does that then lead you at least 8.25 miles north of SFe?

      I will say that I have wondered if the “heavy loads” was a reference not to actual loads/lodes, but to something weighing heavily on ff’s heart, like Skippy’s unfortunate end. But IMVHO, I don’t think the over-arching theme of the poem is an ode to Skippy. I think it encompasses more than that..

        • Hadn’t made that connection, but perhaps so. High rhyming with cry….? Could be.

          I do think the poem layers directional clues with historical and emotional clues that tie into physical landmarks. Like 3D chess on StarTrek, but way harder because there’s more than just logic involved.

          I’ll just throw this out there…like a wooly worm on the end of a bamboo stick:
          To me, the poem reads like the arc of ff’s life. As if to punctuate that, we have the double omega colophon. In a poetic sense, maybe that’s a metaphor for ff beating the odds once before and having a 2nd go at life.

          None of this gets me any closer to a solid HOB, tho. Yet.

  18. the fire look out at mount Brown in montana glacier park, looks like a house on stilts
    a trail from there goes down to a creek then up to a lake
    the creek is to shallow and full of rocks to paddle up.
    the lake is shallow . and cold
    i think the chest is there, just need to find the blaze
    happy hunting all

  19. Just real quick here friends. Home is often used metaphorically. I would say that’s the way the word is used most. Also, below isn’t necessarily a direction or a description. You put out to sail you put in to dock. Put in is also a noun. There is an official put in on many water ways. Put in may mean to set up camp. All of this has been discussed previously on the blog and I am just reminding for those who haven’t considered these varied meanings.

    Canyon down doesn’t need to refer to a canyon. It could be a description of what to do like Bear Down. He didn’t say down canyon. Even if he did down canyon doesn’t necessarily mean down river down stream.

    I also like to throw in at least one of my craziest ideas and so here it is for Canyon Down. Every mountain clothing provider worth their merit sells a coat called Canyon and sometimes they are down coats. In other words there is no clue in that sentence at all. Just a description of Forest Fenn carrying the gold in the pockets of his winter coat. Just a line to provide a rhyme. Take it in the Carhartt didn’t rhyme!

    Forrest may not have said anything directly about man made lakes but I avoid them. To me they didn’t exist in the past and they won’t exist in the future and so are excluded IMHO. Albiquiu El Vado Heron Eagle’s Nest all man made and all quite recently. It just doesn’t jive that this dude would revere these places.

    This has been a daily 2 cents production courtesy of Lugnutz!

  20. In the chapter called “Important Literature,” Forrest mentions all of Eric Slone’s books as well as all of Forrest’s own in a lump statement. So I would dare to call them all “important literature.”

    At the beginning of any college course, or textbook, there’s often a section about important or supplemental literature in the syllabus. And important literature is important for a reason. It means there’s something useful to be gleaned from reading them.

    So, I believe all the books mentioned in “Important Literature” are important to gaining a full understanding of the poem.

    “Seventeen Dollars a Square Inch” mentions the neglected color of brown, and how many varieties there are. That quote about the color brown was taken from Eric Sloane’s book “Eighty.”

    My theory is that the Brown we are looking for is in that quote. I’ll post it when I wake up enough to find it. Lol.

    But the shade of brown I’m interested in that is also a proper name is Van Dyke. And this is where it’s helpful to have a comprehensive knowledge of geography. Which I don’t yet have, but am working on it. 🙂

    In Wyoming, there was once a Van Dyke Camp that was very significant in history. That area also has a very good place to “put in” below it, and IMO, it’s worth investigating.

    Of course, the other shades of brown are intriguing too, like “madder,” but Van Dyke just strikes me more of a duality, because it is both a shade of Brown and a proper last name. Of course, so is just plain ole Brown.

    But as far as hob being brown trout or any other animal, I highly doubt it. IMO

  21. So my 2 cents and I’d appreciate any feedback on this one.

    Fenn Stated: “The little girl in India cannot get closer than the first two clues.” In the most recent 6 questions with Forrest

    I see home of brown as clue #4. As such I suspect it cannot be gleaned with a map or with research and would likely require boots on the ground.

    Further he has said on multiple occasions in response to questions about specific knowledge being required especially history: “The only requirement is that you figure out what the clues mean. But a comprehensive knowledge of geography might help.”

    I am aware this is a bit of an evade due to the caveat “Only requirement is that you figure out what the clues mean.” But that plus the fickle nature of cultural studies (History, Politics, Art, Exc.) does not lend well to permanent clues. Nor does (again wholly opinion) many other studies that one would think would be related (Zoology and Agriculture as other examples). Keeping in mind for example that brown trout in the area are not native and in the geological sense “a new feature” and could disappear just as quickly if say for example another species was introduced and proved to be better adapted to the environment. The clue could disappear over the course of a few decades. Forrest is in it for the long haul and I don’t suspect he would have made the poem so fragile.

    Those two things in mind: My personal belief is that
    1) We are looking for a natural feature of a largely immutable nature (I think all the clues likely are)
    2) It is a very literal and observable brown feature as opposed to related to a person or name
    3) It is capitalized only to indicate its importance within poetic license not because it is a common proper noun or alternatively it is a personal proper noun but is still named for its natural observable features.

    If this is untrue the way I see it this means that the clues are subject to the wild whims of culture and public opinion and thus cannot stand the test of time. I don’t suspect Fenn would be so sloppy and short sighted.

    • OK Dys…Feedback FWIW…I see hoB as clue # 3, not 4…TLGFI can’t get closer because she can’t go to the location revealed by clue # 2 to see or recognize hoB…Apparently from the context of the full Q&A, she CAN get clues 1 & 2 with a certain level of confidence…

      This indicates to me that these first two clues are discernible strictly within the poem itself and tell you where to go search…She can find it on a map…For hoB you must be there to understand its meaning and know what you are looking at…BOTG…Yes…

      Doesn’t a ‘comprehensive knowledge of geography’ encompass history as well as other factors?…To me that indicates local natural features that could possibly be ‘enhanced’ by the hand of man might come into play here…There exist many places where the feats of nature and man’s added handiwork are homogenized into known places which people visit yet today and are more than 1,000+ years old…They may still stand after another 1,000+ years, who can say…

      1. Not necessarily, maybe a combination of natural and manmade…But continents are not static, nor are mountains…Things move and change over time and often can change rapidly…Wind and rain erode while freeze and thaw even destroy granite…Who knows how an earthquake may alter an area?…

      2. Possibly the line “Put in below the home of Brown” can have dual usages and meanings depending on what f meant when he finalized that line…I know it carries two connotations in my own solve…It assisted in getting clue # 2 in one instance, and it also stands alone as clue # 3…

      3. The line is written in a manner to include the aspect of a proper noun when that may not be what is intended in one particular instance, and would tend to distract from the importance of other words in that line that are needed in this same particular instance…Yet read as a single complete sentence, it can be construed in a perfectly straight forward statement, depending of course on a second interpretation…The one you must be there to recognize…So to me this line has duality of purpose(so do other lines)…

      I agree f would not be that sloppy or short sighted…He wrote exactly what he intended…But this poem contains so many distractions and smokescreens as to drive a sane man mad, unless he can discern the method to f’s own madness, the method he used to conceal certain information in the poem…The clues will stand as long as the poem exists, that’s where they are first and foremost, in the poem…Everything you need is in there, it’s a matter of finding it…

      All my own little opinion though, and boo-hoo, I don’t have the chest…lol… 🙂

    • Brown trout fishing on several western rivers are world renoun and there are thousands of pages written about them. So I would not dismiss them easily

      • I’m not really but I am questioning really the validity of research outside of a map and the poem in general.

        Just devils advocate: He keeps saying all you need is the poem and a good map (perhaps a sandwich and a flashlight as well)

        Perhaps the reason so many people are overthinking it is because they do so much research, and that research does not come from either the poem or the map (or the sandwich). Just as a thought experiment I am suggesting we all try to think up at least one solve with only those two tools at our disposal.

    • Dys:
      “3) It is capitalized only to indicate its importance within poetic license not because it is a common proper noun or alternatively it is a personal proper noun but is still named for its natural observable features.”

      “Poetic License”
      He has his own special license to poeticize.
      The observation is obvious.

      • That is my working answer for now. I am dissatisfied with it but a place holder is better than nothing and it would be childish and foolish to expect that something written with thousands of people in mind to placate my sensibilities and opinions about spelling, grammar or when it is okay to give something a pet name. (at least until I accidentally rise to the esteemed position of global dictator at least)

        So for now you and I are on almost the same page. I think where we differ if I recall is you think HOB is clue #3 and I think it is #4 (usually but a few times it has to be 3 for like the 10 separate solves I am looking into at any given time)

        Operating on a few assumptions and If you are inclined to share might I ask witch of the following do you think is not a clue or perhaps is one clue rather than two my opinion is that each line in the second stanza is a separate thought, a unique action and a thus its own clue, but I am always open to have my opinions challenged.

        #1 Begin it where warm waters halt
        #2 take it in the canyon down
        #3 Not far, but too far to walk.
        #4 Put in below the home of Brown.

        • My thoughts Dys,

          #1 Begin it where warm waters halt – clue – Forrest’s bathing spot
          #2 take it in the canyon down – Firehole Canyon
          #3 Not far, but too far to walk. – Not a clue, it is what it is
          #4 Put in below the home of Brown. – Put in about 10 miles upstream from Bakers hole.
          Just my opinion.
          What is yours on the 2nd stanza?

          • so the difference is at #3 Not far but too far to walk.

            I feel that the impossible or paradoxical strangeness of this statement is why it needs attention.

            People have walked from Portugal to India.

            My reasoning is not terribly convoluted this time. There is no such thing as “too far to walk” unless you are in a rush or need to be somewhere at a specific time. Not ruling that out as a possibility but that would mean that it is a clue about timing and having little to do with overland distance.

            There are also other for lack of a better term “places” that we would say are not far off but no amount of walking can get you to them due to some terrible maladaptations of the English language. The horizon, tomorrow for example but even without those admittedly stretched examples there are a myriad of common and far less abstract and almost maddeningly simple ways for this anomaly to actually make a great deal of sense.

            Perhaps swimming (definitely not walking but technically still a way to get somewhere that is apparently “not far” but impossible to walk to) across a river. (bonus points getting drenched to the bone is one of the few ways that Fenn could definitely say “Your effort will be worth the cold” and have it mean something year round).

            When you “put in” are you going to “put in” to something (say water for instance) or from it. That is really determined ultimately by if you were on the water or on the land when you reached home of brown and completely changes the context when you get there. How you got there may well be relevant and the only thing ruled out by that clue (if it is indeed a clue) is walking. Not driving, not swimming and not boating and the one you choose if incorrect could very easily have you putting in to where you were supposed to getting out of and inverting the intended solve.

            This is why I am hesitant to write not far but too far to walk off as a good clue. Its too weird and self-contradictory to be a fluke. Didn’t Fenn walk like 90 something miles when he was a kid? If he thinks its too far we might need to expand both our definition of far as well as our search area.

          • We come again to the heart of at least my personal issue. I like my questions infinitely more than I like my answers. To go down this rabbit hole with me can only result in a slightly (very slightly) more refined and mature version of the “why game”. I am fairly confident in my “whys” but stunningly less assured in my “because”.

            Is it okay to admit that I don’t know? or that it is possible that there is no answer? or at least no relevant or useful one?

            Much like “why is brown capitalized?” On occasion we are faced with a choice of ignoring something or letting the fallacious assumptions of relevance, reason, or cohesion drive us to the brink of madness.

            It is far easier to find why something makes no sense than it is to determine exactly what sense it makes. Physicists and mathematicians don’t commit suicide or go insane at disproportionately high rates because accurate and correct connections are easily made.

          • It is your decision alone.
            I have made my decision based on what I believe.
            You can dance around with words only so long until your mind is made & put BOTG to dance with happy feet again.

          • Oh no, no, no there is no limit to how long one can dance most especially with words. I suppose death will probably end it but Ill take care to follow my own advice and say its only “probably” going to end it. I think it is not only healthy but useful to admit to ourselves and others “I don’t know” It opens the floor for challenges, questions, refinement and improvement.

            Entropy and chaos have quite the ill deserved connotation attached to them. We tend to think of them as destruction and decay. How quickly we forget that they are also responsible for evolution and growth. Often I feel when we decide on a single course of action we are paving over a field of wildflowers with a parking lot. Sure the parking lot is more useful but a decade later we are sick of looking at it and its too much of a pain in the a** to remove or maintain. So it sits there useless, ugly and dead serving as nothing more than a monument to our need for purpose even if that purpose based on bad data and outdated assumptions.

            False dichotomy and absolutism is a trap. Often one solution does not preclude another and stranger still on occasion while dancing with words I end up in the same place but coming from different starting points. (likely due to a limited number of HOB to put in below).

            I try to take care when “deciding” or “knowing” things as they often get in the way of imagining and understanding things. I have a rather non-commital or chaotic nature and obviously nothing of value (at least in the most common measures of success) to show for it in my life or in the hunt so take my take with the biggest grain of salt you can find. but Ill promise you this at least: you will never be lacking for entertainment or new perspectives.

            Sorry If I got a little poetic there but… well no surprise I drink… a lot and get even weirder than I usually am. Don’t box yourselves in unless you are absolutely sure you have to people and even then fight the box as if your life depended upon it.

          • Dys,
            I’m glad you know the dance here will end at some point.
            There will be another new dance when this ends.

            Everything should have a purpose in life including HOB.
            I just think that it is a ruse with the cap B.
            Even the empty parking lot still provides for something.

            You shouldn’t mix the happy pills with drinking, but what do I know, I’m not a doctor, just a semi realist.

          • I am not ever totally sure of anything as we have discussed but I’m not the sort to bank on the long game that a new dance may start. I’ve got to dance as much as possible now just in case.

            Respecting that I am a contrarian, I am of course obligated to respond that things are as often without purpose as they are purposeful.

            Recreational substance use aside, in this particular instance it is calculated to regulate side effects. My pills are stimulants and sometimes don’t wear off when they should for reasons I have not yet sorted out. Until I do my options are 1) give up on sleeping 2) form an addiction to sleeping pills and get no rest or 3) drink some cider/rum and read a book until I gently pass out.

          • OK Dys,
            “I am not ever totally sure of anything”
            You should be sure of somethings, shouldn’t you?
            This could be the Matrix & you could be the creator.
            Sooner or latter the batteries run dry & have to be recycled.

            Seeing I took a bite of your sandwich way up there.
            Brown mustard.
            Could I have a swig of that cider?
            I’m getting thirsty.

            Home of Brown could have thousands if not millions of different meanings depending upon the amount of people trying to figure it out.
            It’s proportional.

          • Halfway joking here but the sentiment is honest.

            I’m not sure if I should or should not be sure about some things. I reserve the right to change my mind and or change it back whenever convenient. 🙂

            One thing I will say is probable (despite being in a neck and neck race with generating our own extinction) and something I am hopeful for is transhumanism.

            “That is not dead which can eternal lie, And with strange aeons even death may die” -H.P. Lovecraft (The nameless city)

            I have no idea how old you are but I would suspect slightly older than myself. It is possible we may breach immortality and technological singularity within our lifetimes. Its possible that even death is not a certainty any longer (now if we could just get the taxes part taken care of)

            If ever we meet you are assuredly welcome to my cider. As mentioned I usually put a half shot of black rum in it not the best choice when quenching ones thirst.

            So far as a clue that is dependent upon interaction that is a truly unique idea. I am not sure how one would create such a thing but it seems like it would be fun to try to reverse engineer. Ill ponder on that.

          • Tranzˈhyo͞omənizm
            It’s inevitable if not a reality.
            The same stage has been played out before.
            The physical things will stay here & eventually be recycled but the soul moves on.
            I hope to be in Montana next month but the weather is not cooperating.
            The waters have risen but not high enough for crossing comfort.
            Is it me or does the cider open your mind more?
            Thirst is relative to what your thirsty for.
            Our thirst is a bronze box.
            Lets drink to that!

          • Oh my, next month? I had best get moving. If I’m not fast enough you will have rummaged through all the good briars and mud holes.

            I have about 4 (not very good) solves that lead me to the general area that I think you are looking and one decent one. So that goes for you too, best get moving or ill steal all the good mud and thorns.

            I’ve been saying next month for about 45 days now. I did just get my motorcycle back up to a reliable level of functioning last week and that was my main concern.

            There are plenty of studies that suggest flavonoid polyphenols uniquely found in wine, chocolate and cider (beer has them too but they are different and I don’t recall exactly how) Temporarily improve function in the part of the brain associated with abstract thought. (all of this based on my at best questionable memory of research I did last month so apply appropriate skepticism)

            Also interestingly enough (but not surprising) there is a common practice among programmers and researchers of all people (including Steve Jobs) of improving creativity and critical thinking by ingesting a very small amount of LSD or Psilocybin. Not that I am suggesting or implying anyone should follow suite. It would however most assuredly be “no place for the meek” and it seems to have made Steve Jobs rich.

            If I may ask where is it that you are coming from? It would be coincidental if nothing else if we were to encounter one another on our way in, out or on location. I know we are going to the same general place sometime soon. (Not suggesting teaming up or carpooling or anything, I’m terrible company)

            I can drink to that, but then again I can drink to almost anything.

          • I don’t see any mud or thorns there Dys.
            If you got a motorcycle, you may be able to ride up to the treasure within 200′.

            I am coming from the Treasure Coast, heading to the Lone Star State to meet my redneck bro & hop on a flight heading to Gallatin Field in the Treasure State in June.

            Yea, I know about the mind altering drugs.
            I worked for the government for years on military applications.
            MIT, Lockheed Martin, NASA, AS&E, You name it, I’ve created quite a resume.
            The engineers there would swear by the effects of those little pills & witnessed it myself.

            Cambridge Ma. was a great place for experimenting with experimentation.

            You can send me a PM if you can use that PHD in the http.

          • Not only do I have a motorcycle one would be hard pressed to find a better one for that task. I love my ugly, repaired with scavenged junk, stitched up seat rattling, rusted piece of crap like most people love their children. Its a 17 year old klr 650. We call it the apocalypse bike. Its like 2 janky repairs away from being right out of mad max. Wow I just realized I have had that bike for a decade and it is still the most expensive thing I think I actually own.

            The mud is sneaky, it waits at the bottom of river beds and on the shores to attack unsuspecting victims. As far as thorns… there are always thorns I may be wrong but there are plenty of wild blackberries in the area, they usually have thorns.

            Oh my that is quite a way, I have less excuse to not see Yellowstone. I live in northern WA (I think dal does too if I recall)

            Wow, that is actually rather impressive resume. My accomplishments are… Petty officer 3rd class USN, high school graduate and… one time I accidentally locked myself into a stolen backhoe. (Obviously doing a stellar job at winning at life over here)

            I must say, I don’t know how to PM on here (after admittedly little effort to find out) Computers are actually a glaring deficiency in my skills that I would like to improve (I plan on going back to school with my GI bill and am strongly considering majoring in electrical engineering and minoring in computer science to make up for that)

          • Hello Jake Faulker. When telling a story, somewhere in the book, authors tend to repeat the title of the book. I believe there’s a video where he explains the title being a metaphor of his life.

            Another answer to your question might be:

            Why not?! 🙂

          • Please view the video I mentioned. I believe he states the title is a metaphor of his life. I’m hoping I didn’t misunderstand what he said.

            This is an opinion, offered as a thought.

          • Thanks pdenver,

            “I looked up the meaning of words”
            Too far to walk “That part of my Preface is a metaphor for my entire life.”
            That’s 50 mins in to Moby.

            My question is:
            Why would you name the so called sequel to your memoir after a clue or a line in the poem which holds the nine clues.

            IMO : You would not, if you wrote the book(s).
            Just doesn’t make sense to me.

          • Addendum to the previous response a critique of method or frame of perception if I may (of course not intended to be judgemental, I think you kinda understand my tone by now but none the less I feel the need to apologize in advance for how blunt, disempathic and or faux intellectual I know I must seem at times)

            Its only a little thing but it may mean all the difference one day when it really matters. if instead of saying something “Just doesn’t make sense to me” considering what “makes LESS sense to you”

            None of this makes perfect sense yet and if it did we would have something to show for it. See what I mean? NONE of it makes sense. Surely some things seem to make more sense than others. With little effort I am sure I could produce at least a flimsy reason why the interpretation of any and every clue could be incorrect.

            Approaching things from a graduated rather than a a binary mindset for me at least is the best of both worlds. If I feel something is improbable I am prepared to accept it is possible when and if new data emerges that may improve its probability. However if I say something is impossible when new data comes along that may conflict with that assessment I have prepared myself to automatically ignore it. No need to set ourselves up for failure.

            Perhaps you did not mean it or think of it that way but don’t fool yourself we say what we really think and think what we really say it would be a shame to see an otherwise good idea go to waste over something so trivial as it “doesn’t make sense” and forever being filed away as permanent, unadaptable and irrelevant information.

          • “Just doesn’t make sense to me” considering what “makes LESS sense to you”

            No Dys
            Maybe the binary system should have fractions with the 1’s & 0’s.

            There are things that cannot be taught to anyone.
            You can spend your whole life in school, colleges, institutions & never know the real world if you do not have uncommon sense.

            Maybe someday it will make sense to me, but for now it does not.
            Remember, I did not say it will never make sense to me.
            “Just doesn’t make sense to me” At all at the time of writing & still doesn’t.

            Do you have an answer to the question:
            Why would he title TFTW with a line in the poem that could be a clue?
            When you get the books & read them multiple times, you will have a lot of questions answered & a lot more questions.

          • This may be one of those instances I mentioned yesterday where occasionally I skip steps and miss something obvious. In this instance I am not wrong but it had never occurred to me that my perception of numbers a tad unusual. (for the record I failed high school algebra like 4 times but now can do simple trigonometry in my head) Gird your loins I will likely only muddle this more rather than clarify.

            No Dys
            Maybe the binary system should have fractions with the 1’s & 0’s.”

            I had never considered the idea of fractions (or decimals or any numbers for that matter) any different than probability aside from application… but that admittedly only confuses most math unless you are applying it to quantum physics.

            However there are a great deal of parallels basic quantum concepts. Much like schrodinger’s cat. The chest either is or is not at the location (A definite 1 or a 0) and the cat is alive or dead. But we will not know what one is correct until we either reach the location or open the box. In a situation where we are attempting to use math (or logic) we can neither use 1 or 0 but must use every point between them and even then the best we could hope for is what makes the most sense.

            As far as having an answer to “Why would he title TFTW with a line in the poem that could be a clue? I have a few. As per normal sadly my questions are likely stronger than my answers.

            The simple one is that because it is important. But a misunderstood point. He does love giving hints but not obvious ones. He said there were some in the book. Why not in the title?

            If the phrase is a metaphor for his life. It seems he thinks it is important. If he thinks that it is important is it a good idea to disregard it?

            Even if it is not one of the 9 mentioned “clues”. It is definitely important to Fenn. He not only used it in one masterpiece (the poem) but a second time (the book) at worst it is an insight into his writing style, tone and way of thinking.

            Pattern recognition, psychology and social engineering may not be part of the poem or the 9 clues but even you admit that knowing Forrest is useful. So I guess what I am trying to say in my often too many words is it is not a waste to ponder too far to walk regardless of if it is a clue or not. You never know what suddenly may click when you have boots on the ground.

          • Dys,
            We all miss something obvious before.
            That’s one of the reasons I’m here.
            Quantum concepts can be related to the poem.
            It’s just a theory for us at best.

            “As per normal sadly my questions are likely stronger than my answers.”
            So, what are your questions?
            We may have to move this to another appropriate page.

            Don’t disregard anything in the poem.
            The books on the other hand are – sprinkled – with hints to help with the clues in the poem.
            But you have to give values to what’s useful in leading you to the treasure.
            This may be where the fractions come in.

            BOTG are necessary at some point in the chase. I prefer to do this near the end of the solve & not the sequel. The clues are in consecutive order.
            Where does that leave the title to his second book relating to the treasure?

          • Hello Jake Faulker. “Too Far to Walk” could also represent memories. This is an opinion, offered as a thought.

        • I know you & others like to use only the poem as the only means needed to lead you to the treasure.
          Why not expand & blur your thinking with the books that have sprinkled clues about?
          Have you read the books?
          Yes, all you need is the poem but why not help yourself to some great writings?
          I get the feeling the books haven’t arrived in your mind yet.
          Once again, No you don’t need them but they will help or hurt, depending upon your POV.

          • Naw I don’t have the book(s) not that I am opposed to them its just until recently my life has been nothing but a series of improbable disasters as much as I would like them they are admittedly a luxury I could not afford. (but things are on the up for now I may well decide to treat myself)

            We are looking in the same sorts of spots. (again like everyone else it seems) another spot we differ. I think “down” is not necessarily south. but again I have several solves being pondered at any given time.) I would say instead that where firehole ends (at the Madison junction) feels a better fit for me as to where warm waters halt. Take the canyon down (could be south but could also be DOWNstream and I feel that this is actually a better fit) on the Madison. But as always it gets muddled at home of brown but with a place holder there are a few stabs I have enough faith in to ignore the advice of not acting on a hunch (certainty is the realm of fools and madmen and I am unlikely to feel like any solve no matter how perfect it seems is better than a hunch) I’ll risk it.

            Sharing is caring and all but Ill respectfully keep the rest close to my chest for now. After I get a chance to prove to myself how little I know Ill gladly share the experience of my follies and blunders with the rest of the class. A few more clues and we get to the tricky part.

          • “To Far To Walk”
            This phrase may includes a phrase in a language spoken by people/groups from the area. My inability to understand that does not change that.
            This phrase may contain a reference to a type of rock that is present in the validated search area.
            This phrase may include a Star Wars reference. I wouldn’t have any idea whether of not F Fenn has ever seen Star Wars

            Regardless Tewak Tufa and Tufar can clearly be heard when the phrase is read allowed slowly twice as F Fenn once recommend. I can’t site that and I don’t care either.

            Why name the book Too Far To Walk?
            Because we fools have always ignored that as a clue taking it more as a direction. By my count TFTW is the 4th clue.

            I don’t know why F Fenn named his book this is conjecture on my part

          • Lug,
            One of your nutz is loose.
            Just kidding.
            It could be a clue & title at the same time but what if the distance from the first clue to the last is too far to walk? Would that give more meaning to his book or the poem?
            Subtle hints are not a title of a book IMO.
            Just doesn’t make sense.
            Not very subtle at all.
            You mizewell hit it with a sledge hammer.
            I know, no one can have a logical answer to the question including myself but we still have to ask the Q & some of us realize the difference between a subtle hint & a slap on the face is pain & that seems to condition us.

            I’ve been slapped around in circles & still know which way is up.

          • Just to add:
            Holly: What tips do you have for those wanting to find the treasure?
            Forrest: Here is what I would do. Read my book in a normal manner. Then read the poem over and over and over, slowly – thinking. Then read my book again, this time looking for subtle hints that will help solve the clues.

            There’s nothing subtle about a title.

        • An area of uncertainty (at least in my mind) is the parsing of the clues. Dys is currently running with:

          #1 Begin it where warm waters halt
          #2 take it in the canyon down
          #3 Not far, but too far to walk.
          #4 Put in below the home of Brown.

          But here is perhaps an equally viable parsing:

          #1: Begin it where warm waters halt and take it in the canyon down; not far, but too far to walk.
          #2: Put in below the home of Brown.

          Clue #1 in this case gives you a starting point and a direction. Clue #2 also gives you a starting point and direction.

          • I’ve employed that thinking and the problem becomes instead that I end up one or 2 clues short.

            Of course that is easily overcome but it always feels forced when I dig for more.

          • I was about to mention that this is only two clues and would conflict with “sounds like 3 or 4 clues to me” (sorry searching for the correct citation is rather hard due to the sheer number of people quoting it and I of course am impatient for no good reason)

            Then I realized that I fell for the same thing I constantly try to warn others not to do. “SOUNDS like” and “3 OR 4” obfuscate the information despite it not being in response to a question. Like most of the information Fenn volunteers it is designed with uncertainty built in.

            Thanks for questioning my methods in such a way that I have to question them more.

          • Hi Dys — here’s the “3 or 4” reference you’re looking for:


            Fast-forward about 4 minutes 20 seconds into the interview. Relevant transcript:

            Host: “Some of the clues maybe are things that people locally would know. You say begin it where warm waters halt and take it in the canyon down. Not far, but too far to walk. Put in below the home of Brown. That seems like a couple of clues to me”.

            Fenn: “That sounds like three or four to me”

            As you say, he’s left himself some wiggle room on how many clues are in that stanza, but I agree that 3 is probably more likely than 2, and four is quite possible. But the rejoinder might be, “Well, it ~sounds~ like three or four clues, but it’s actually just two (or even one)”. As long as we’re counting, further clues downstream might be:

            1. it’s no place for the meek
            2. the end is ever drawing nigh
            3. there’ll be no paddle up your creek
            4. heavy loads and water high
            5. if you’ve been wise
            6. and found the blaze
            7. look quickly down
            8. your effort will be worth the cold
            9. if you are brave
            10. and in the wood

            So there is no shortage of potential clues, and some logical grouping must take place to bring the total down to 9. Also note that I haven’t even included anything from stanzas 1 and 4, and many people assume there are clues in one or both of those stanzas.

          • Thank you. I knew it was in a video but, didn’t feel like rummaging through every interview with him ever.

            I’ve used 1-7 all more than a few times. But 8, 9 and 10 rarely as I feel they come out after ” take the chest” and thus in very few few instances (mind you not in NO instance) can I see them leading you to it.

            I tend to operate as if all the clues are in stanza 2, 3 and 4 but I can not really give a good reason for that other than it makes the most sense to me and feels like that is where the most information is.

            Does anyone else wonder if the we get hung up on what is and is not a clue and trying to make it fit for 9? Not saying there is not value in breaking things down in sections but functionally speaking I am beginning to wonder why I (or anyone else for that matter) have fixated on that so much.

            So a barrage of rhetorical questions for those who would like to entertain this idea with me.

            #1: If you hit all the points be there 2 or 3 or even 4 in stanza number two and ended up put in below a home of brown does it really matter how many clues there are?

            #2: Is my definition of clue the same as Fenns definition of clue?

            #3: If you think that you have a different definition than Fenn for the word or idea of a clue is it possible to find a clue that could help you that Fenn did not consider a clue or useful

            #4: If you think that you have a different definition than Fenn for the word or idea of a clue is it possible that you do more harm to your solve than good by attempting to unnecessarily define and organize something that is already in its intended order and designed flow?

            #5: What do you personally gain by “numbering” your clues?

            *** “DYS”claimer *** I am not in any way shape or form attempting to imply or insinuate that Fenn lied or is somehow responsible for our misuse of the tools he has given us.

  22. Mindy et al, here is the Eric Sloane quote regarding the color brown:

    “Brown is a neglected color. The dictionary says it is ‘any group of colors between red and yellow.’ Go into any art store and try to find a tube of brown paint; you’ll find sienna, Van Dyck, madder, umber, and ocher but never just plain dark or light brown. It is the color of autumn and I like it. So I thought I’d give brown a special distinction and do a painting in shades of brown. Of course I used tubes of sienna, Van Dyck, madder, umber, and ocher.”

    page 73, “Seventeen Dollers A Square Inch” by Forrest Fenn

    Madder: ruby red; history of making madder and described as used by Vermeer and El Greco http://www.essentialvermeer.com/palette/palette_madder_lake.html#.Vw6kXvA8KrU

    • Additionally, Eric Sloane often wore a red shirt with a bow tie…”I’ve done it ti.red” possibility. I may look into the Lincoln highway route.

    • Years ago I took a course in ‘painting like the masters’… The whole picture, (lines and shading) was painted entirely in browns: ocher, sienna, sepia whatever. Only after the brown picture was complete, could the TRANSLUCENT oil paint colors be applied over the browns. That’s what gave the final painting it’s ‘depth’, or was it ‘life’? I forget. Brown was the base coat, below the brown was the white canvas. Eric Slone was classically trained so he probably knew the technique well.

    • Ill be heading out myself here shortly (perhaps a month or so) so you better get on the “going to” part it if we are of the same mind on this one.

  23. Lia,

    The key line from that excerpt is “It is the color of autumn and I like it.” Those that know will agree.

  24. I am new to The Chase but I hope that with my background I may catch up. Like Forrest my father was a teacher and we spent summers fishing the major rivers and feeder creeks and streams of Montana. The eastern slope rivers like the Missouri fed by the Gallatin, Madison, and Jefferson rivers and smaller rivers and creeks like Spanish creek and the Ruby river. The Yellowstone and feeder creeks like the Boulder. The western slope rivers the Clark Fork and its feeder Rock creek. The Blackfoot (made famous by The River Runs Through It) and its feeders the Little Blackfoot, Dog, Mike Rinig, and Telegraph creek where I first learned to fish. The Clearwater. The Swan with its feeder Holland Creek. The Flathead.
    I am becoming familiar with the rivers and creeks in my new home in Colorado through discussions with avid fishermen and trips to the Denver fly fishing show. I have made several trips to a river that holds promise for a solve. The clues have taken me to what I believe to be The Home of Brown and The Blaze. Two trips have left me stumped and almost rattlesnake bit but I have a few solves left for the fall.

  25. The Mount Brown Lookout, rehabilitated in 1999, is on the National Historic Lookout Register. It was constructed in 1929, and was last manned on a full time basis in 1971.
    so once was some ones home

    • KT
      the problem is where to go from there, which way to the rest of the clues?
      I love the idea of GNP as being the search area, so much of it is right on the bubble (elev wise), the photos of the crystal clear creeks, rivers, streams are incredible.

  26. I have a relative that spent a summer in a lookout tower. He would be hard pressed to call it any positive type of home.

      • That’s always been my dilemma, does the accident site w/ the plaques or wooden-crosses qualify as a dead person’s Home?
        I suppose if the body is buried there it might work, otherwise I would suspect you have to go back to their birthplace, hometown, Alma Mater etc.

  27. Hi zephee – beautiful as it is, this area is outside the “treasure zone”. However, that doesn’t exclude the idea that something in Marble Canyon could point you in the right direction. Just keep in mind, you can’t start with zeroing in on HOB. You must first be led there. All my humblest opinion, of course.

  28. So an odd idea crossed my mind. I don’t feel it is correct but I thought I would spit it out in case it helps someone else the way some other random comments have gotten me thinking.

    Someone made a statement and I would tend to agree with them that their is no such thing as down or below if you are using a map. But then it occurred to me that their is… if you are using a paper map. Lets entertain this idea for a moment understanding that it greatly expands the area of the clues but should not expand the area of the location that the chest actually is.

    All that in mind:

    Begin it where warm waters halt: That could be 32 degrees Fahrenheit or 0 degrees Celsius. (being the point where water of any ambiguous temperature freezes) just like latitude or longitude degrees

    Take it in the canyon down: Fold your map along that line thus taking that line to the bottom of a “V” shape. (The only down on a 2-d map is if the map itself is treated as an object separate from what it represents)

    Not far but to far to walk: This will leave depending on your fold latitude or longitude 32 degrees or 0 degrees an entire other continent (physically impossible to walk to due to oceans in most cases) will be laying atop the united states even though if you do this they are physically touching (not far).

    Now here is where it gets hard… the home of brown wherever it is on another continent will at this point have something below it (Ill remind you again the only true way you can have something “below” if you are using nothing but a map). Perhaps you see or understand something I don’t.

    No place for the meek: Well now you can glean no more clues from maps and folds. You must go to that location for the rest.

    Again, I don’t think this is an even remotely correct answer myself but it is an exercise in “thinking outside the box” I thought I might share. Also It makes the flashlight Forrest mentioned useful so that you can see through both sides of the map at once.

  29. this is just my opinion and nothing more – if we understood what is home of brown – we would understand – why below is north and down is south

    • check a few posts back. I covered that… Ill be it less succinctly but while being better looking (I’m joking)

      Got stuck on home of brown. Perhaps you can turn my thought experiment solve into one that works and has a treasure at the end.

  30. The 3rd clue is PIBTHOB.
    Little India girl cannot get closer than the 1st – 2 clues because the 3rd clue is HOB & is not on any map or given away in the poem.
    There’s only one person alive that knows where the put in is exactly.
    Third clue is a huge elephant in the room.
    All IMO.

    • Jake – do you think this is a botg requirement to figure it out? f said that searchers went right on past the other 7 clues; do you have thoughts on how to identify it correctly once you are there?

      • JCM,
        My thought is to skip HOB & try to figure the next clue or maybe it’s where Forrest put his dingy in the Madison. You will not find the location on a map, only in his head IMO.
        With my solve beginning near Ojo Caliente in the Firehole River as the first clue & take it in the Firehole Canyon down, both of these clues are labeled on maps that I have seen.
        I can only say that I did put BOTG in YNP & W. Yellowstone areas & didn’t figure clues 4 thru 8 until I came back home. I don’t think I would have been able to do this without going there.
        Little Indy is stuck with the map & poem in her hands.

        • Interesting thoughts Jake. I have given a lot of thought to the possibility for one to skip clues and still be able to find the chest. Because f said that searchers had gone past the other 7 clues, I have concluded that it is possible that one might be able to do so.

          I think that it might be the situation with f’s comments from a few years ago. He was saying that several search parties had correctly figured out the first two clues but was also saying that a man had been closest – and also that some women had been close too – yet they all would only have had the first 2 clues correct. I figured that one scenario with that statement could have been that the man identified the first two clues, missed the 3rd, and then may have figured out one or more of the remaining six clues. Thus the man was closer to finding the chest, but f was still able to say that no one had given him the correct solution past the first two clues – the man didn’t have the 3rd clue correct.

          Now that f has said that some may have figured out the 3rd and 4th clues as well, It would seem to me that someone has penetrated the fog of the poem and is slowly figuring out the meaning of the remaining clues. My expectation is it would be one of the few who are in tight focus with a word that is key.

          And that brings up another interesting concept that I have given a lot of thought to. Can a person figure out the first two clues without “the word that is key” but not get any further without it?

          We all have our solutions to what we believe is the correct interpretation of the clues, and most argue their positions and thoughts based upon how they are solving the poem – right or wrong. I try to look at this from the big picture of the actual process that solves the poem, not just a position that validates my approach.

          • “Can a person figure out the first two clues without “the word that is key” but not get any further without it?”

            Very good question JCM,
            How is one to really know without having the chest?
            I can only say that in my solve you could skip HOB & get to the 4th clue but never the 5th unless you have the word that is key. In my theory the word that is key is a component of the 5th clue & not the clue itself alone.

          • Just throwing some of my thoughts out there (incomplete ones for now of course as that is my edge and I have not actually gotten to go on a hunt and would rather prove them wrong myself)

            There is a least one anomaly in the poem probably more but I have fixated as we tend to on one in particular. That to me is almost certainly a clue but seems to be almost complete contextual nonsense when analyzed, except when the meaning of a specific word within the clue is expanded to a very common phrase.

            This word was not chosen because of rhyme or rhythm and other words would have done just as well perhaps even better in some ways except to link them to the phrase.

            If I am right without that little link to the phrase you could have a picnic on the TC and never know it was there. I could see people coming very near to it and or literally walking right over it. Without this idea in mind IF it is buried. (remember he has never confirmed nor denied that it was or was not buried)

            So see if you can find mine or other things that do not make sense or don’t belong. Those are the ones that need the most understanding and possibly where your key word is or needs to go.

            One of my old favorites to ponder is that there is no where that is too far to walk. There are places that one cannot walk but that is not because of distance its because of obstacles or physical or abstract impossibilities. So if you cannot walk how do you get there and what other things are commonly refereed to as not far despite having nothing to do with distance such as time.

    • “the 3rd clue is HOB & is not on any map or given away in the poem. There’s only one person alive that knows where the put in is exactly.”

      So all the information is not in the poem… the book won’t help… a map is no good, And if you nail down the first clue, apparently that won’t do it either?… then why bother if true/or believe true?

          • Good point KM,
            I have to look at it that way though.
            “Many are giving serious thought to the clues in my poem, but only a few are in tight focus with a word that is key. The treasure may be discovered sooner than I anticipated.”

          • My bad Jake, my thoughts always end up down the line a ways. And on second thought skip the quotations remarks. Peace.

          • Your not alone straw,
            If I try to reply to someone on the same page where I replied to someone else earlier, the reply I want to leave does not go to the intended comment.
            I close the tab down & either open another manually or go back to my email & reply from there if I didn’t delete it already.
            I wish I could explain it better.
            Maybe the cookies have a short memory?
            Maybe Goofy can.

          • Jake, I don’t think Forrest would want to get a rise from searchers.
            I did not find a word that is key in the poem, it was just a word. : )

      • I could be wrong Seeker but I think he said:
        All the information you need is in the poem.
        You may not need to figure one of the clues to lead you to the treasure. Obviously that wouldn’t be the first or last clues.

        • I’ll give you that one Jake, I’ve been wondering if all the poem is, is the first two clues and the other seven on site only and in one spot. The poem will lead you to the treasure because it lead you to the answers.

          Another words 9 clues in the poem all pertain to one answer… one place. with the answer to where the chest lays in wait at that spot.
          Two clues bring you to something that holds the answers to the other seven clues. Map is good for the first two points [ imo ] one in the same in meaning. the book gives ‘ideas’ to read the poem.

          No recon mission. No thousands of hours of research. no codes or bible verses. just knowing beforehand… which seems to equal the nailing down the first clue.

          Now I’m back to is the first clue the “know where to start” or “being it where…”

          The funny thing is, folks keep mentioning clues… possibly up to four clues, Yet still may not know.
          For me that says volumes that a clue is something known, but unknown by itself.

          • Hi Seeker – you mention that all the clues pertain to one answer, one place. I am not sure I can buy that because of f’s Q&A on Jenny’s site where he writes:

            “most of the places the clues refer to”

            He speaks in very “plural” form.

            Also, f has said that the clues are in consecutive order, which would seem to be opposite of the thought that they are all in one spot.

            Maybe I need to better understand what you consider to be one place. Are you talking within a small area measured by feet or inches, or measured in thousands of feet up to a few miles?

          • Simply:

            South Dakota
            Mount Rushmore
            3 Presidents
            Each president has unique facial features(i.e.: eyes, nose mouth, etc.)

            The individual features occupy a “place” on each President, each President occupies a “place” on Mount Rushmore, Mount Rushmore is a “place” in South Dakota. South Dakota is a “place” in the USA.

            …..a riddle could be devised to take you directly to the right eye of any of the Presidents.

            IMO 🙂

          • Seeker: “The funny thing is, folks keep mentioning clues… possibly up to four clues”

            The 1st four – yes. But he’s not sure.
            He doesn’t mention clues 5 thru 8 to my knowledge although the blaze could be in there, assuming the 9th clue is the blaze which he has said it is a clue.
            Where does that leave the rest of the poem?

            I will refine my statement earlier & say that the put in point is on a map but not labeled on ANY map.
            The home of Brown is only known to the man who created this.

      • I had not heard that before, do you happen to have a source on that?

        It actually helps not hurts several of my ideas and that is a rarity so I am excited to have as much information as possible on this quote if you have it.

        HOB is my least favorite clue.

          • I agree completely my HOB is not named HOB in any way and my reasoning for thinking it is the HOB does not meet my personal standards for a solid clue but does meet the standards of many others.

            Try as I might, I can find nothing that meets MY standards but if what seeker quoted is correct (I trust him but if the navy taught me anything it was “trust but verify”)

            If someone could cite “the 3rd clue is HOB & is not on any map or given away in the poem. There’s only one person alive that knows where the put in is exactly.” as a quote from Fenn. I would be far happier with almost all my solves but one in particular and could finally “move with [slightly more] confidence”

          • DYS, imagine your redneck friend got a new fishing boat and asks you to go drown a few worms with him. On the way to his favorite fishing hole, he tells you he has to stop to get beer before the “put in.”

            Do you understand what he means?

          • I do, and for the record I am occasionally that redneck friend lol.

            I get the put in part without issue

            I can accept the below part with a bit of artistic license for most things

            I am however never satisfied with home of Brown but that is largely because I do my best to strictly adhere to nothing but a map and the poem. The more research I must do or more obscure knowledge (such as historical figures named Brown or local flora and fauna) I need to make something fit the less I like it.

            But it seems at some point Fenn said that this axiom does not apply to this clue and it is the one I struggle with the most and like the least. Does anyone know when and or where he said this? I’m a bit dumbfounded that I missed this announcement.

          • Response to Dys on this:
            “But it seems at some point Fenn said that this axiom does not apply to this clue and it is the one I struggle with the most and like the least. Does anyone know when and or where he said this? I’m a bit dumbfounded that I missed this announcement.”

            AFAIK, Fenn never said anything of the sort. A poster might have written something to that effect that was misinterpreted as a quote from Forrest. Perhaps loco will be able to dig up the source of this (mis)quote?

          • Pandora, the red neck forgets the worms not the beer. But I catch your drift either way. PI, PIB, BIP, or IP we can all glean a little humor if we capitalize on the imagination. I apologize in advance for the unintended confusion. IMPO.

          • @ Dys,

            LOL!!!!! NO!! Forrest did not state:
            “the 3rd clue is HOB & is not on any map or given away in the poem. There’s only one person alive that knows where the put in is exactly.”

            –Seeker used quotation marks because he was quoting(somewhat) a remark Jake had made in an earlier post, that Seeker was replying to.

            Seeker did not intentionally mislead, it was just how you interpreted the post. Deciphering posts is almost as challenging as the Poem…..you’ll get the hang of it!!! 🙂

          • OH, thank you, thank you, thank you. I suspected that might have been the case but the post order was so jumbled that I could not find where the quote came from.

            I was about to have an aneurysm and then when I recovered hop on my bike and make a run for the the treasure half-cocked. If that was fact and not opinion it would have been a linchpin for one perfect solve.

            So ill go back to my janky imperfect solutions. For the record I agree with the fact that its probably not on any map but I really really don’t like it.

          • dys,
            Sometimes it helps to look at the time stamp… not always… just some of the time. I should have posted “Jake you said..”
            My bad… I should be sent to the principal’s office.

          • “welcome”? I live here. I know nothing and think everything including thinking that thinking is the quickest way to deep and irreversible insanity. I’m looking forward to the moment when I give up on being sensible and accept the inevitable and stay confused… at least its easier.

      • Hello Seeker. You’ve stated the following, per quotes, assuming they’re from Mr. Fenn:

        ‘the 3rd clue is HOB & not on any map or given away in the poem. There’s only one person alive that knows where the put in is exactly.’

        I do not recall these words coming from Mr. Fenn. Would you be so kind to direct me and others to them, please.

        For one of my solves, HOB would be about my 4th or 5th clue, depending on how I read and interpret the poem.

    • Jake;

      I agree that the 3rd clue is PIBTHOB

      I do not agree that the hoB is not on a map. Since, IMO, I know where hoB is on the map, I know where I can “put in” below that point.

      I agree, hoB IS a huge elephant in the room…or at least a CRITICAL clue to finding the TC

      Good luck to all searchers and STAY SAFE!


      • JD,
        So why is it that Indy can’t get closer than 1st 2 with the poem & RM map?
        Please don’t tell me her map isn’t good enough.
        The other thought is that she cannot go there in person although there maybe a few reasons why she can’t get past #2.
        Most if not all of us use Google maps.

        • Hate to disappoint you, but I do feel that the reason is the size of the map…NOT enough detail.


          Yes, most of us DO use GE, but we are not told that she has access to it.


          • JD,
            So what your telling me is that a paper map of the US Rockies would not be considered the same as pulling it up on the internet?
            I’m not following you.
            I just went to Google maps & typed in “US Rocky Mountains”.
            I’m not thrilled where the little red bulls eye popped up but it is in the Rockies.
            With just a few movements of the mouse, I was able to see anything in great detail.

    • I think the little girl answer is another famous example of Fenn telling the honest truth but people taking it the wrong way. Don’t forget that he more often than not gives “non-answers” I make a point of taking everything he says outside of the poem and trying to sort out why it is not useful rather than the other way around. The statement seems to contradict another statement that one could move with confidence. We must discount one of them and I will discount the little girl in India for one or all of the following reasons.

      An few easy examples of ways a little girl in India could not get past the first two clues but really does not apply to you doing so.:

      “Q: You told a reporter that there are three or four clues in the second stanza. Were you telling the truth?

      A: No, I was not lying but I don’t remember a reporter asking me such a question. f 7/4/2014”

      If its 4 clues that means that too far to walk is more than probably one of them and still has pretty good odds of being a clue even if it is only 3.

      #1 Too far to walk may mean that you need to drive. Understand that this does not prohibit you from figuring out where you need to drive to. The clue however describes an action that must occur at a specific place that is most likely not in India failure to complete that action counts as not completing the clue in my mind. Further little girls from India are not terribly likely to legally, safely or physically be able to operate any sort of vehicle unsupervised.

      #2 lets say that clue three is put in below the home of brown. It could mean to dive into a fishing hole or something of that nature. Perhaps lift a large rock over your head. The inability to complete the action at the location theory still holds but also that is something a child should NEVER DO or lacks the physical ability to do. Children are too impulsive to be given carte blanche and Fenn as fond as he is of adventure I doubt would advocate this behavior without supervision.

      And finally the question never involved or included the basic tools that most American adults possess. Namely a car, liberal bedtimes, money, the ability to move objects weighing more than 50lbs or to freely walk about without permission. It is possible that something of that nature is involved in step 3 but in no way precludes you from figuring it out and all the ones after it.

      In short “The little girl in India cannot get closer than the first two clues.” is not the same thing as “The little girl in India cannot solve more than the first two clues”

      • Dys,

        The interviewer did not ask Forrest such a question.
        This is what was said:

        Sometimes a poem is not just a poem – CBC
        Mar 8th 2013:
        (3:50) The interviewer reads the second stanza to the poem: “Begin it where warm waters halt and take it in the canyon down, not far, but too far to walk, put in below the home of brown. That seems like a couple of clues to me”

        Forrest: “That sounds like 3 or 4 to me”
        Interviewer: “I guess you have to know where the home of brown is?” Forrest: “That’s right & you have to know where warm waters halt”
        Interviewer did ask about WHERE HOB.

        Little Indy does not have to be a child. Little could mean short.
        I also sometimes call someone younger than me “kid”.
        You could be a 17 year old kid with a drivers license, I was.

      • Dys,
        You’re not going to like me but I guess I’ll have to live with that.
        Forrest Fenn has never lied to anyone and for you to say a comment like that is totally out of context. If you do not have the clues don’t be blaming f for that. If you do have the right clues (which I believe I do) then “EVERYTHING” f says makes perfect since. I have stuck up for f a few times lately because people are blaming him for not telling the truth. While you are at it and saying that’s he’s a liar why don’t you just give him your e-mail and ask him to explain the answers to you so that you can go see that the TC is real and where f said he put it according to the Poem.
        Why do you even care about some girl in India? Do you not have enough on your plate just trying to figure out the poem? I have nothing but pure respect for someone that can stump a few people. Can you imagine how much respect that I have fro someone (f) that can stump 100,000 people? Forrest is a great man and for him to go out and do this search that can possibly change a persons life forever, should be at least the only reason that you have to show some respect for him.Forget India and stay in the Rockies and do what all of us have been doing, enjoy Forest for who he is and figure out the Poem and go get Rich.

        PS Don’t forget to thank Forest…IMHO

        • Not that Dys needs anyone to stick up for him, but I gotta chime in here. YOUR post is way out of line. Dys never said Forrest was a liar. If you somehow got that impression, you need to reread his post. Dys has shown nothing but the utmost respect for Fenn, and has done nothing but give him credit for cleverness.

        • Okay here comes the part where I am mean to someone that I talked about earlier. Sorry if this is disruptive or out of line but I feel it is well within my preview to defend myself against a slanderous, emotional, ad hominem from a raving, misguided person of questionable literacy.

          I never said the word lie. You made that up just like everything else you are upset about. In fact the first sentence says “Fenn telling the honest truth but people taking it the wrong way” I don’t know what kind of brain damage you have but it seems you have inverted the meanings of the words “honest” and “truth”

          I never said anything about me having or not having the clues. Another fine example of you making things up to compensate for lack of reading comprehension. For the record I will never believe I have the clues right until I have the chest as well.

          Having never said anything about having or not having clues I also said nothing about blaming anyone for their presence or absence. Thinking about it are you sure you read my post? Not someone else on a completely different website or something? Its like everything you are mad about is no where to be found anywhere in any of my statements… are you on drugs? I mean its okay if you are but I am genuinely puzzled how you got so far removed from reality.

          I am seriously the most arrogant person I know and somehow you have me beat by a mile: ” If you do have the right clues (which I believe I do)”. Don’t wear your lips out tooting your own horn there buddy. If you had any amount of humility not only would you have not bothered to say this in the middle of ranting at a stranger on the internet but if you were to say as much you would not do so to put someone down or lord it over them as you seem to being doing here.

          “I have stuck up for f a few times lately because people are blaming him for not telling the truth.” This is what we call “virtue signalling” its what happens when angry myopic people who fear that they have no values want to boost their fragile egos by feigning anger over imaginary (like the rest of your argument) or unrelated issues of a moral or ethical nature. How big does your ego have to be to think that a brilliant, millionaire, fighter pilot, adventurer needs you to defend him to a bunch of nobodies on the internet.

          You accuse me of somehow claiming that the chest is not real (I think, honestly you write at like a 3rd grade level and I can’t make heads or tales of some of your drug induced, paranoid word vomit) I never said anything even related to the chest itself. Do you think that I am as pathetic as you, like I just come in here every day in the hopes I can be mean to someone or crush their dreams or something?

          Ill admit, I’m confusing and convoluted even likely hard to understand but what sort of messed up life have you lived where your first response when you don’t understand something is to assume the person means disrespect?

          In summation given this one and only interaction I’ve had with you. I highly suspect you are arrogant, dumb and do not even understand what respect means and somehow projected how terrible a person you are onto me and then got angry about it. Go see a shrink you have some issues man.

          • I had to look up “virtue signalling”. …Saying you love or hate something to show off what a virtuous person you are, instead of actually trying to fix the problem…

            In my day we call them a horses behind.
            How times have changed… Dys, don’t let a post like this get to you, If Tim took anytime to read your post[s] he may have thought different… well, may have.
            Virtue signalling… word of the day…lol

          • He isn’t going to get to me. I appreciate the solidarity none the less. Ill admit to a bit of a character defect. I enjoy doing things like that, I am as I said the most arrogant person I know. As hypocritical as it is after calling him out on it my ego is fed by absolutely dominating in everything I do.

            I crave conflict so that I can “win”, this applies to the treasure hunt as well. There is a possibility (I have not really decided) that if I am the one that finds the treasure Ill leave most of it right where it was. That’s right I may well pay a few million dollars just so I can say “I’m the smartest and I still am”. I’m in it for the thrill not for the payout, no matter how large it is”

            I reference Sherlock Holmes often because we are very much alike. I conciser him despite being fictional as a model for how a sociopath like myself can still be a good person. There are reasons to do the right thing that have nothing do do with it being the right thing. Some go out to rescue maidens… me I would rather slay dragons. End result is the same.

            Sorry for the off topic and overly personal statements today. Its therapeutic for me to be open and largely accepted in spite of it. I am not normally so for lack of a better term “human”. My new medication must be working. It feels nice to be friendly for a change.

          • @Dys,

            Re your:

            ” I am as I said the most arrogant person I know….. I crave conflict so that I can “win”……I consider him, despite being fictional, as a model for how a sociopath like myself can still be a good person.”

            0_0!!…. Whoa there pardner!! Admittedly you rode in on a big horse and you cast a big shadow, but you ain’t been in town long enough to run for Mayor…..jus sayin’!! 🙂

            LOL!! I do like your attitude and your manner of setting the record straight.

            Welcome to the “game” and Good Luck!,

          • I’ll try to live up to my own arrogance. To be clear I do not assume I am just “better” or that other people are somehow “worse”. I mostly just know that I tend to in many ways overestimate myself it would be doubly foolish to also underestimate others. No shadows and no horse and I am too lazy and introverted to actually desire anything resembling power or responsibility (one of my few saving graces) so ill pass on being mayor but if the local drunk or village idiot positions are still open I think I could find time for those jobs 🙂

          • I’m glad you brought this up Dys.
            We all are “better” at some things others are not.
            We all have something to bring to the table to be consumed, rewashed, chewed, spit out, digested & even considered.
            Never underestimate your fellow man even when your looking in a mirror.
            I have lived by this saying for many years cause you never know who your gonna meet.

          • When I was a bit younger I used to say:
            There are plenty of people that can outsmart me
            There are plenty of people that can outrun me
            There are plenty of people who can overpower me
            But I suspect there are very few who can do all three
            If I plan to live a relatively long and painless life I’d do well to recognize how and whom I am bested by.

            I’m a little bit older now and slightly less combative and much more cooperative but the wisdom still holds. That is to say if I ever hope to improve Ill need to observe and understand those who are better than me in the ways that matter to me. Within the context of the hunt I sadly have to admit that I don’t have any new big ideas that I actually think would be fruitful. All of my search areas have been gone over likely a few hundred times by dal and others. The best I could hope to do is tweak their solves a bit.

            So this time, I’m definitely not the fastest and there is no sense in ruining a perfectly good resource and connections with decent people I share interests with. So another phrase I am fond of and may well be a Dys original “Its you and me until its you or me”

            I hope collectively we can come right up to the brink of the perfect and correct solve and one clever person both deserves and finishes it. I of course have an admitted bias as to who I would hope that is but I doubt I’m alone in that preference. Perhaps none of us actually “need” this community but I think we would be fooling ourselves if we said we were not enriched in some way by it search or otherwise.

  31. Dys;

    You start off your post with the following: “I think the little girl answer is another famous example of Fenn telling the honest truth but people taking it the wrong way.” and yet, you do nothing to tell us how we are reading it the wrong way, nor do you tell us how to read it correctly.

    Question: How is it a FAMOUS example?

    You later say, “#1 Too far to walk may mean that you need to drive.”You are telling us that YOU do not know the meaning of this line…so how can you tell us that we are reading it wrong?

    You follow this up with, “#2 lets say that clue three is put in below the home of brown. It could mean to dive into a fishing hole or something of that nature. Perhaps lift a large rock over your head.” Again, you are stating that YOU do not know what the line, “”Put in below the home of Brown.” means. Again, how can you tell us how to read it correctly, if YOU do not know what this line means? Just a question.

    It puzzles me that since you do not know what the first stanza means, that you can presume to tell us that we are reading The Little Girl In India post wrong.

    This is just my opinion. Others may have found great value in your post, sorry to say, I didn’t.

    Good luck Dys


    • Other examples of fenn answering things with non answers and or answers that are not terribly useful:

      “Me: Good afternoon Mr. Fenn, I have a hypothetical question: If the U.S. government fell today and all road signs, all government landmarks, and all labels and names removed from existence and maps….would it still be possible to solve the clues in the poem? Assuming of course nothing changed the actual physical landscaping of the Rockies. Basically when you mentioned the chase could last 1000 years, are you assuming so would the U.S. government and their duty to mark landmarks, etc.

      FF: I could still go back and get the treasure.”

      The qualifier of “I could” actually evades the question but sounds like it answers it, it is not the same thing as “anyone could”

      “west of Toledo”, “Located above 5,000 ft” “below 10,200 ft” and other hints he has given may narrow down the search area but only by a very fractional amount.

      “I will say that I walked less than a few miles (whole trip of hiding the chest and treasure) if that will help. I just looked “few” up and one definition is “scant.” Why do I sound like I’m talking in circles”

      Do you get why I have the impression that he does not like giving out more information but also does not like being dismissive?

      Call it projecting if you will but were I in his shoes, made this grand sort of puzzle to test the wits of others and were constantly barraged with people wanting more information or shortcuts to undo my masterpiece. My impishness would take over. I’d give those folks enough rope to hang themselves.

      I do not wish to imply that everything he says is a dodge nor do I wish to say that even that is not useful what I am trying to say is all you need is a poem and a good map. I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again If fenn is giving “extra” hints and I ignore them I’ve still got the poem and a good map. If I misunderstand those hints and or they are not actually hints it may be the undoing of a winning solve. Ill err on the side of caution and when there seems to be a conflict its always just the poem and the map.

      As far as everything else. I am only giving examples (pretty sure I VERY CLEARLY stated that) , Ill remind you again that NO ONE knows the meaning of that line unless they have the chest. I have no chest so of course I do not “know” the meaning of that line. But again I am just saying I will not write off a possibility just because a convoluted question with too many variables was answered cryptically. Perhaps I took the statement of “An few easy examples of ways a little girl in India could not get past the first two clues but really does not apply to you doing so” to be enough akin to “IMO” to make it clear that this is just a thought not a solution.

      I am sure you mean no offense and I surely did not but you clearly misread my tone. It is mildly irritating that you seem to be under the impression that I am saying people are wrong or correcting others as If I am some authority. What I am saying is take everything with a grain of salt. There are plenty of ways that this statement can both be true and useless. Just as politely as possible trying to be the devils advocate, not a know it all and definitely (until I have a tc that is) not any more or less correct than anyone else.

      • If I offended – I apologize. If I was not able to grasp the depth of your thoughts, that is a reflection on me, and not you.

        You are obviously a “Deep Thinker”, and my shallow mind may have gone into overwhelm.

        Good luck in your search.


        • I had not had my coffee or happy pills yet this morning, I got my feelings hurt a bit for no reason and because I am a traditional and stereotypical American male I am conditioned to not admit I have any feelings other than anger.

          No need to complement or even apologize. I prefer being understood to being liked or appreciated. For the record respect you and have even before I started actually posting. You seem sensible and level headed and are one of my favorite posters in this forum so it kinda stung when I thought you had a negative opinion of me based on what I was sure a misunderstanding. But thank you none the less.

          Had it been almost anyone else I would have been tempted to mock them (I try to be polite but I don’t care if I’m nice sadly) but I’d never want to burn that bridge with you, Seeker or Jake Falkner. (the rest of you are great too but I’m allowed to have favorites). You all seem the perfect mix of thinking close enough to the way I do that I can easily understand but different enough to challenge my ideas rather than allowing me to blindly reinforce them.

          • You do make some good points Dys,
            Some of the statements by him seem to make us go in circles & yes I would say he enjoys it greatly.

            Even though we try to look at the big picture from many different angles, we still have to decide what we believe in the long run.
            I enjoy you guys tearing my blinders off on occasion to see other POV’s.

            You butchered my last name man!
            Take the “n” out & flip it upside down & place it between the a & l.

          • Sorry Jake Faulker. Just a bit of a personal share. I have the most atrocious spelling and grammar of any adult I have ever met, Mild dyslexia and enough ADD for three 8 year old boys on cocaine. As such I rely a great deal (far too much) on auto correct and it does not apply to peoples names unfortunately. I literally just glanced at your name and went “Falkner is a name” and sometimes think to fast to realize I make such glaringly obvious and easily corrected mistakes.

            Now here is the sick joke. I’m trying to be a writer. Friends and family constantly have to come behind me and mop up the bloodbath left in the wake of me butchering the English language.

          • HAHA, thanks for giving me a good laugh today Dys.
            Your not the only butcher on this blog. I do quite a bit myself.
            From what I can read, I think you have what it takes to be a good or even great writer.
            You get your point across very nicely speaking your mind & that’s what I think this it’s all about.

      • Dys — this is an excellent post. A true gem from a fellow logical thinker. I think you hit the nail on the head when you reasoned that if you were Fenn and spent 15 years crafting, tweaking and polishing your puzzle to make it both as perfect as possible and SELF-CONTAINED, your pride in your work would completely disincentivize you from revealing anything useful in your responses to pointed questions. If you think like a lawyer or a logician, you can find big loopholes in almost all of Fenn’s answers to questions. TLGFI exchange is just another example of this.

        • Dys;

          You posted the following in a post above. There is no “reply” button so am posting here.

          You said,”No need to complement or even apologize. I prefer being understood to being liked or appreciated. For the record respect you and have even before I started actually posting. You seem sensible and level headed and are one of my favorite posters in this forum so it kinda stung when I thought you had a negative opinion of me based on what I was sure a misunderstanding. But thank you none the less.

          Had it been almost anyone else I would have been tempted to mock them (I try to be polite but I don’t care if I’m nice sadly) but I’d never want to burn that bridge with you”

          Thank you for the very kind words

          I try to be sensible and level headed, and am glad that I am one of your favorite posters in this forum.

          It is difficult to get to know ones personality from two dimensional words pasted on a blog.

          I am learning to l
          “Like” you a lot better than my “First impression”.

          Thanks again for the nice words.


          • Hello JD still heading out this weekend? If so be safe sir and enjoy. Other than a few hiccups this has been an awesome ride. f if your are reading our post thank you sir.

  32. sorry – I say,”It puzzles me that since you do not know what the first stanza means, that you can presume to tell us that we are reading The Little Girl In India post wrong.
    …It should have been “SECOND stanza.


  33. Pretend TLGII has solved all the clues and she has each clue plotted on a map. Imagine that she has figured out where the treasure is…..and marks the location with an “X”. When she looks at the configuration, she notices that the 1st and 2nd clues are equidistant and closest to the chest, while the other seven clues are farther away. While working on her solve TLGII didn’t know that she (in solving the poem) “…couldn’t get any closer than the first two clues.” I submit this to remind us all that FF is a master at interpretive subterfuge. He understands that the mind of most readers will follow the path of least resistance. In doing so, I think we’re supplying him with a great deal of fun and vicarious intellectual adventure(s). I’m happy to oblige him. Will be back to WY in September for the 3rd time. Loving it. Thanks, Forrest!

    • Interpretive subterfuge? Without knowing what it means I hesitate to look it up. Great fishing in Wyoming though, good luck, I like the Wind River area. IMO.

    • Interpretive subterfuge, I like it. I had been calling it conversational obfuscation. I have an autistic friend that does not like answering questions but also does not like not answering them. He is very good at this particular skill.

    • Little Elm Creek in Texas, as well. smile…. (Sure seems to be a few
      Elm Creeks!)

      Found a Ben A. Brown in ‘Old’ Wyoming, however. (Seems that his daughter, Patty was given a book about “Anagrams” one Christmas.

  34. I apologize, I have obviously muddled my intention here. There seems to be a lot of focus on what I think are the least important parts of my post. Let me attempt to clarify.

    Applying the scientific method we usually learn more by disproving rather than proving (this is literally why Sherlock Holmes uses the phrase deduction). Be skeptical, I don’t think Fenn is anything but honest but there are plenty of ways to be honest but not give away information. I treat these statements like a logic puzzle as Fenn is so obviously a fan of puzzles, I mean that is why we are all here right?

    Many of us seem to be taking the statement to mean that to solve the puzzle requires that one must be present for clue 3. Nowhere in Fenns response does he say the word “solve” so even if that conclusion is correct it is not reached based on what Fenn said but only what we heard. We are doing poorly in the “listen good” department imo.

    As far as the question goes there are too many variables to determine what has eliminated her from getting closer than the first 2 clues. Most of us have again assumed (we all know what happens when we assume) that it is because she is in India. Go back and read it again and keep in mind the answer does not single out what variable precluded her from getting CLOSER (mind you again not the same thing as solving) clue 3.

    Is it because she is little? (possible) Is it because she is a girl? (doubtful) Is it because she is in India? (possible but not the only possibility) Is it because she speaks good English? (The hilariously bad grammar of this statement aside, I would say doubtful) Is it because she only has the poem and a map? (possibly, especially again noting that forest changed the phrase “work out” to “get closer” when he answered the question)

    I am not claiming to have an answer, I am claiming to have three rhetorical questions and those questions are:

    #1: Are the phrases “work out” and “get closer” equivalent in this instance and why do you think so.

    #2: If you said yes to #1 what makes you so sure that it is the fact that she is in India that disqualified her from clue #3 rather than any of her other descriptors?

    #3: Does this negate the statement from forest that we should be able to “move with confidence” (sorry could not find citation for this quote) If not in what ways do they coexist.

    I have MY answers to these questions. But those are MINE, they are opinion. This is an attempt to share my opinion and my tools for reaching them. I am sorry again if I come off as rude. No one likes to hear “I think you might be wrong” but please give me the benefit of the doubt. I don’t know anything more than you but most assuredly we all think differently. I feel it is only by challenging the suppositions of others that we can collectively progress. Playing devils advocate and or constantly focusing on why something MIGHT be wrong is bound to have the person doing it sound like an a** but I think we need that more than everyone agreeing please believe this is me trying to help and be included and not judge or divide.

    • @Dys, well articulated. Thanks.

      @Goofy, it sounds like this searcher might be akin to you, Seeker and myself in one respect:

      “I feel it is only by challenging the suppositions of others that we can collectively progress. Playing devils advocate and or constantly focusing on why something MIGHT be wrong is bound to have the person doing it sound like an a** but I think we need that more than everyone agreeing please believe this is me trying to help and be included and not judge or divide.” 🙂

  35. interesting.
    The one that tickles me is ” Is the blaze a single object?” “In a word , yes.” ff

    A great example of a non answer to a very straightforward question.

    • “Which direction does the Blaze face? North, South, East or West? Curious.”

      “I didn’t take a radial off of the blaze Foxy. I’m thinking it may not be any of those directions.”

      -Perhaps the blaze does not have a face or if it does faces NW, SW, NE, SE, NNW, NWW, SSW, SWW, .2 degrees off north, straight up, straight down or is an abstract concept.

      “While it’s not impossible to remove the blaze it isn’t feasible to try, and I am certain it’s still there.”

      -Name one thing not removed by liberal application of atomic weaponry. Its not impossible but given the restrictions owning and using any powerful explosives let alone atomic weapons its not feasible. That said there is a grain in this one that actually reinforces one of my favorite solves.

      I almost enjoy reading his written riposte more than thinking up more solves.

      • “While it’s not impossible to remove the blaze it isn’t feasible to try, and I am certain it’s still there.”
        This is kinda like wind can affect the chest… tornadoes are rare in the RM’s but they do happen.

        This one is a thinker. One could ask, if any part of the blaze was removed, is it still one?
        Should the blaze. for example, be a trail of sorts… if part of it removed/moved… is it still a trail?

        Is the blaze a single object? In a word, Yes

        The RM’s are still moving in 3009 it maybe more difficult…

        I sometimes wonder if the comments/Q&A’s are harder then the poem itself to understand.

        • Personally, I think the blaze was around before the birth of one FF. He became aware of it as a child; it took on special meaning to him. 60 years went by… both he and the blaze survived; despite being thrown into the middle of independent historical events.

          We known what Fenn endured. I believe during the 60 year seperation the blaze survived large earthquakes, flooding, fire, and most destructive of all, human progress. When FF came back, the blaze was exactly as he left it; like it was waiting for him, untouched and unseen despite the years of turmoil and tribulation.

          If you read any mutual fund prospectus, it tells you that past performance isn’t necessarily a predictor of future returns. If something has lasted at least 200 years, who is to say it will survive the great alien invasion of 2037? Perhaps the next disaster is the one that will do it in.

          • Yea Pandora,
            I’ll agree with everything you said except for “great alien invasion of 2037”.
            Where have you been lately?
            They were here before us.

            PS Dys,
            Forrest may be an alien. Sshh

        • As one of those poor souls (much like Fenn I think) likes to spar with wits and likes to win so I have to say all the things that make me feel “clever” but don’t want to actually say them if they might end the game, especially not in my favor so Ill put a quandary to you instead.

          As we have been discussing Fenn loves to answer without answering, even when he is only giving an interview unrelated to clues he rarely speaks definitively about even the most mundane, obvious or probable of things. Frequently using words like “might”, “possibly”, “if”, “I think” and “could” (at least in my observation). He is a careful speaker and I suspect that is of the opinion that its impossible to be absolutely positive about most things so it is not proper to use absolutist phrasing.

          It is a quirk I also possessed by many highly intelligent people. Its related to the Dunning-Kruger effect. So I try to pay attention when he speaks definitely, because it is anomalous. Like for example: “I am certain it’s still there.” There are very few ways that one could be certain, especially if certainty is uncharacteristic.

          Stew on that a bit. That one and a few others have given me all sorts of inspiration and led to many unique solves and even a “key” word.

          • Duh, the collective comments here feed Dal’s algorithm… we’re all mere guinea pigs

          • I’m German…I got no rhythm at all..algo or polka or waltz…no tempo, no beat and no rhythm…all I got is happy feet..

          • Eh, I’m mostly German too the rest of it is a bunch of mixed Native American (not that you could tell by how pale I am) I guess it only takes a little bit to offset “polka rhythm”.

          • He never say there is a key word, a bunch of people here assume that based on his response. i will quote mysterious writing but keep i’m mind F Fenn said this, he didn’t write it down

            only a few on in tight focus with a word that is key

          • You are correct sir. In my particular instance the correct semantics didn’t change anything.

            That phrasing however seems to strongly imply (but only imply) that the word is in the poem, but again I thought that anyway. I dislike the idea of a cypher or something outside the bounds of the words of the poem but I horde ideas no matter how much I dislike them. I’ve not thought of any other ways this statement could be taken but as always don’t let the limits of my imagination dissuade you.

      • Instead of “Thinking up more solves” – I personally have found it more rewarding to perfect my ONE solve.

        Just my opinion.

        Good luck yo all searchers and STAY SAFE


          • You are on Jake – six I will owe you, or nothing.

            Yes, my hoB is labeled on a Topo and is also labeled on GE,…and can be seen on GE if you zoom in enough.

            Bet that that surprises you!


            Good luck to all – STAY SAFE


          • Is it actually labeled with the word “brown” (or Brown)? If so that is a rare find indeed but even if not it is still impressive.

          • 00110110 00100100 it is.
            Yes I’m totally surprised.
            I don’t think PIBTHOB is labeled anywhere on any map.
            Could be but doesn’t make sense to me.

            May have fogged things up again.

          • No place to “Reply” so will post here.

            “NO” it is not labeled with the word brown or Brown, but it is labeled.

            Wish I could say more, but then you would be able to go right to it. Sorry


          • @JD Oh I’d not press for more but I am admittedly trying to live vicariously through you and get excited from the armchair. (until I can strike out on my own adventure)

            So do keep us as posted as your secrets will allow so we can keep rooting for you.

          • Dys commented: “Is it actually labeled with the word “brown” (or Brown)? If so that is a rare find indeed.” Finding Brown on a map is not as rare as you might think. There are dozens scattered throughout the Rockies. I found 22 instances in Montana alone including Brown Pass, Mt. Brown, lots of Brown Gulches, Brown Creeks, a Browns meadow, a couple Brown Ranches, Brownes Peak, Brownes Creek, Brownes Lake, and many more. There’s even a Browns Canyon if you want to knock off two clues with one location. 😉

          • Ive found a few myself but I am very picky about my clues. I mentioned earlier that I went to gates of lodore (south of Brown’s wildlife refuge) but it was just for fun when I was in the area. Its right on the edge of Fenns map and I really had to shoehorn in the “where warm waters halt” as if I needed an excuse to camp when traveling cross country.

        • I definitely have a favorite but I may only have one shot. Eggs basket and all that rot. I need to force myself to not obsess on a narrow way of thinking you might have more restraint than me.

          I also see working on several solves as a way to explore the one that I actually like. For me at least there is a point where more thinking won’t help. Different thinking however at its worst allows you to relax from the strain of over-focusing and at its best allows you to take lessons learned in a different context and apply them as tools for your favorite.

          Just how I see it.

          I think I heard that you are setting out shortly? Is that correct? Where are you heading if you care to share at all? If you are about to go on your hunt I wish you skill and wisdom (but not luck as not all luck is good luck) If you are not heading out I wish you skill and wisdom none the less.

          • Yes, I am heading out Saturday on my sixth visit to my site. I have been hindered by ice on the previous five trips. I am hoping for no ice this time, and then I will know if I have been on a wild goose chase, or not.

            Thank you for you well-wished. Skill, that is why I am taking along strong healthy family members. Wisdom… how I yearn for that imagined quality///
            “If you’ve been wise…” I can only hope.

            May you find life more fulfilling in the ‘marrow, than in your yesterdays.

            Stay safe.


        • I’m not sure we would get a answer worth contemplating.
          As Forrest said: “but logic tells me that if you don’t know where the blaze is it really doesn’t matter.”
          Maybe you should listen more.
          Now there’s a few nutz loose.

          • maybe it doesn’t face a direction and also can’t easily be removed not ipmpossible

          • Doesn’t matter till you find the blaze.
            Don’t put the cart ahead of the horse.

            “What surprises me is that so many ignore the first clue in the poem. Without it all the searcher has is the memory of a nice vacation. Although many have tried, I doubt that anyone will find the blaze before they have figured out the first clue.” f

            “I mean there’s people driving down the street looking for a blaze, because that’s one of the clues. ”

            Just doesn’t matter.
            Your tire is getting loose.
            Pull over & tighten the lug’s.

    • I think some misunderstood that I was quoting your post, however my reply ended far down the ladder…. Oh well, crap happens.

  36. IMHO, many questions an be answered by fully getting all the meanings of hint of riches new and old, and the lines before that.

  37. The home of Brown is a perfect distraction from the creator.
    He knew most everyone would be drawn to the capital “B” seeing it is the only cap word that does not start a new line.

    He has created a visual case bulls eye in the poem that leads to a rabbit hole the size, mass & gravity of a black hole, sucking almost everybody in.

    Maybe the real clue is Put in.

    • I would like to second that notion. Perhaps out of frustration but I second it none the less. Its so out of place in more ways than capitalization. Be it a fish, person, historical reference or physically a brown thing in my mind that means that one would need knowledge outside of the poem or perhaps have to get there on a hunch with boots on the ground. Both have been advised against if I recall. Is there a third option lurking somewhere I have overlooked?

      We come to a point where all options are equally terrifying an event horizon of sorts for the black hole known as HOB.

      Try and hope as I might I can find no way that “put in” or “just home of brown” can stand alone. But by no means let the limitations of my meager imagination dissuade you.

      Actually I can think of one way that “put in” could stand alone but then home of brown just sort of ominously hangs there as purposeless as I wish it was.

      If it is capitalized just for kicks or some very abstract reason I may well laugh until I asphyxiate. It would be one of the greatest pranks of all time. Perhaps children would be better to solve this because they don’t get hung up on tiny things that seem out of place.

        • This most assuredly is a game (but in my mind few things are not). It is just a very difficult one.

          If we are indeed “thrilled” by this chase I’d say its more about fun than function ergo a game. (I’m not actually arguing semantics just being flippant to no one and nothing in particular) 🙂

          • OK Dys, Life is like a game of poker if this is what you refer to. I’m just echoing a few basics about the poem. And you are so right about it being fun, it puts me on cloud nine.

      • Yes Dys,
        “one of the greatest pranks of all time.”
        And it is & lots falling for it.
        Why else would he cap it?
        You don’t think he would give everyone a freebee the first few times they read the poem?
        Your pulling away from event horizon.
        I only see brown as gray, I’m colorblind.

  38. IMHO, hoB is a old local joke nickname, hinted to us by the Ruler in the cafe story. Not that thAt is the clue solve, but ff is just showing us how joke nicknames are handled by a writer in that story, except it could be a mud pot full of that Brown gravey.

    • Your view of HOB might have validity if it were not for the next line.

      “From there …” What could “there” refer to other than HOB?

    • Why can’t ” Put in below home of Brown.” be meant to say, ” Below the home of brown, begin it where warm waters halt and take it in the canyon down…” “From there…”

      In a poem this would mean the same thing, and placed to keep a flow in the rhyme, You begin your quest below hob “and” you begin at a location below hoB @ wwwh.

      This challenge is all presented in poem form, which give leeway to “understanding” how the poem is read.

      So does this change the order of the clues? Maybe the question should be, are we reading the sentences with the correct intent?

      The first sentences in this stanza starts / finishes “begin…at “walk.”
      Is the next sentences meant as instructions and not directions on where to start. The the next piece of information tells us “From there” that last point, It’s no place for the meek…

      Example; IF we were to start/begin our trek at the statue of Liberty and I add put in at the big Apple. Is New York city not the place to start, and we begin at the Miss liberty?

      While I argued with another searcher about fenn’s comment when ask about hoB… fenn answered [ if I’m correct ] if I told you that you could go right to the chest. This seemed to imply that the chest is very near to hoB. I say Heck no… It could be that hoB is to be known as the place to find the clues?

      Now take in consideration there are many wwwh and the first clue is the critical clue… is “knowing where to start” just as important as knowing “the first clue” and one can’t be “understood” without the other?

      Fenn chose the avenue of a poem, first and for most, to present the clues. He stated he was going to make it work. Shouldn’t this challenge be read in the same mindset? I add another thought… is “HINT of riches new and old.” meant to help us understand what hoB means?

      Summary theory; Fenn Hints to us what hoB means, that tells us where we will find WWh, below it, and then we go “from there”
      This fills in the hint, the know where to start, and the first two clues ~ that follow the know where to start. The “clues” remain in consecutive order and are contiguous. And the poem remains straightforwards… both in honesty, meaning and understanding when analyze correctly.

      Food for thought…

        • Sure Oziboy, it could be.
          So which wwh in the RM’s is the correct wwwh we need to begin at?
          If all the information is in the poem… then the poem must give that answer.

          I’ll take it a step further… most use new and old to mean New Mexico. That still leaves a whole lot of wwh. How do we even find the correct one if we still have hundreds to choose from?

          The “…poem contains nine clues that is followed precisely…” shouldn’t that include the precisely ‘know where to start”? and is that a clue or a hint?

          • IMO, the first stanza tell us to listen to where Forrest keeps his riches, which are his memories/stories. Without that, all you have is 24 lines, 6 stanzas, and no context.

          • Seeker,

            “all of the information is in the poem”…?

            Hints are in TTOTC to help understand the clues…therefore…IMO…no one will find the correct place to start without the hints in the book.

          • Rick,

            “There are hints in my book that will help you with the clues, but a clue will point you toward the treasure chest and a hint will just help you with the clues, if you can understand that.”

            “Dear Mr. Fenn,
            We are a group of avid elderly bridge players in San Diego who after reading your book hope to find your treasure. We are not into poetry as much as the memoir. We realize the clues are in the poem, but were wondering if there isn’t at least one clue in each chapter.
            Thank you for a great book. Sincerely, Emily,
            All of the information you need to find the treasure is in the poem. The chapters in my book have very subtle hints but are not deliberately placed to aid the seeker. Good luck in the search. f”

          • Seeker,

            All of the information you need to find the treasure is in the poem. The chapters in my book have very subtle hints but are not deliberately placed to aid the seeker. Good luck in the search. f”


            “IF” Mr f did Not put “Hints” in the book to “Aid” the seeker….Then WHY did he put them there…?

          • ‘My’ conclusion Rick… the book’s hints will show themselves after the reader gets a understanding of the poem… more confirmations… helpful insights to the author of the poem… informational and suggestive.

            But I can’t answer your question… that was fenn’s quote, not mine. Along with the other quotes I posted during this discussion about hoB… he keeps telling us to go back to the poem, all the information needed to find the treasure is in the poem, no need to read is book, the book is a good reference, as well as GE and/or a good map, the book has hints if you know what your looking for, the hints in the book are not deliberately placed to aid the seeker… need to know where to start, need to nail down the first clue.

            I just see a pattern building with all his comment over the years about the poem, the book, the first clue, the need to know where to start, what is useful and what is not etc. etc.
            I’m just as lost as everyone else. [ and yes, imo everyone is lost… folks keep getting to the first clue[s] and they still have no clue, and folks are within 200′ of the chest, and still no clue ]. So I’m starting over… and hopefully those quotes from over the years will plant a seed…

          • Seeker / Rick in FL – Here is how I interpret and reconcile these two statements together. No arguing the point or disagreeing with anyone about their interpretation, this is just how I see these two statements that Seeker has thrown out…

            “a clue will point you toward the treasure chest”

            “a hint will just help you with the clues”
            (it does not provide information that points a person directly to the treasure chest)

            Breaking down the Q&A to pinpoint what was asked and what f’s specific answer was to the Q:

            Q. “We realize the clues are in the poem, but were wondering if there isn’t at least one clue in each chapter.”
            (Question is about specifically needing additional clues contained in the book to find the treasure chest)

            A. “All of the information”
            (the 9 clues)
            “you need to find the treasure is in the poem”

            “So I wrote a poem containing nine clues that if followed precisely, will lead to the end of my rainbow and the treasure”.

            (in answering the question, f is saying there are NOT additional clues in the chapters in addition to the 9 clues in the poem which a person must have in order to be directed to the treasure chest).

            “The chapters in my book have very subtle hints but are not deliberately placed to aid the seeker.”
            (Definition of aid: to provide what is useful or necessary. There are hints in the chapters of the book, not clues; the hints will NOT provide information that will point you to the treasure chest, that is the role of the clues. You do, however, need to figure out what the clues mean, that is the role of the hints, to help you with solving or figuring out the clues.)


            I think people get caught up with the phrase “all of the information” and take it out of context from the question which was asked about clues in the poem and possible clues in the book needed as additional aid or information in order to find the chest. “All of the information” gets twisted in meaning to be “everything that is needed”.

            The 9 clues is all the information you need to be pointed to the treasure chest.

            You need to figure out or solve what the 9 clues in the poem mean, help in doing so is provided by the hints in the book.

            At the end of the day, I really have no problem if people want to go with their interpretation that “everything that is needed” is in the poem given my hope that my interpretation just might be correct. 🙂

          • JCM, nice conclusion.

            Here’s a what IF… all the information in the poem… what If, the poem explains how to read itself?

            If we go on the assumption of 9 line as nine clues to be followed, that’s a lot of wasted space for 15 extra lines, right?
            In one stanza there is/are hints. in another stanza there is a question with and answer [ the answer fenn knows, but are we to understand it as well…] possibly to help understand the poem? And the last stanza with instruction to hear and listen, something relating to cold, telling of in the wood, and of course Tarry scant with marvel gaze seemingly after the quest was ceased.

            15 years of on and off dedication to write a poem with only nine lines for 9 clues? Time to plan and execute the hiding of a 25,000 chest with close to if not more than 1 million in gold, precious stones, and artifacts etc. creating a 20,000 word autobiography that is so small it needs a magnification to read it, and keep it a secret from all. Then write a book to tell all of his memoirs, the challenge, the poem, open his own publishing company to have control of it all and give all proceeds control to a single book store.

            I think many under estimate the power of the poems information… that’s a whole lot of work for just holding 9 line for 9 clues.

            or as you implied; ““All of the information”
            (the 9 clues)
            “you need to find the treasure is in the poem”

            Why is this answer only direct to “the nine clues” and not the entire poem?

            Just curious, how you came to that conclusion.

          • Seeker/JCM,

            in no way am I arguing and if anyone sees it that way then they have my apology. With that being said I agree with the difference between a hint and a clue. My point is simply that IMO…we need hints to figure out the clues.

            IMO…the first clue is…

            As I have gone alone in there…
            (remember two can keep a secret…)

            This gives us the “general area” to find WWWH.

          • Seeker – you asked:

            ‘Why is this answer only direct to “the nine clues” and not the entire poem?’

            I think that “all of the information” is specific reference to the nine clues because that is what the question f was asked about by the bridge-playing elderly folk. They said they knew that there were the nine clues in the poem, but they wanted to know if there was in addition to the 9 clues in the poem at least one clue in each chapter of the book. f answers them with clarity, “all of the information is in the poem” (the 9 clues) for finding the treasure chest, then specified that the chapters in the book only had hints.

            For me, this is one of those moments where f specifically and directly answered a query. No subtlety, no spinning of words, just clarifying that there are no clues in the book that are needed in addition to the 9 clues in the poem for locating the treasure chest. As f said in the book, the 9 clues will lead you “precisely” to the chest, those 9 clues are all of the information that is needed to get you there.

            As far as wasted lines, notice that f says he wrote a poem “containing” 9 clues, not a poem that “is” nine clues. Does that mean that only 9 lines of the poem are the 9 clues? My current solution I am working through has as many as 3 lines as one clue and another where one line has two clues; I hold no sanctity to the silliness of one line one clue.

            I think the poem serves as more than just guidance to the chest; it also has legal clarifications that make it possible for the chest to belong to the person who finds it… Leave my trove for all to seek… Your effort… Give you title. When f dies, if these things weren’t included in the poem, guess who the chest should legally go to? It would be a legal battle between you, his heirs, and whoever the land belonged to where the chest was found. But f thought this through and we know he talked to legal counsel about the ramifications of hiding it on different lands; and he thinks that the chest will belong to the person who finds it, he probably had that discussion too with his lawyer. He wrote it all into the poem; there is not wasted useless words and lines, but not all are specific guidance to the chest IMO.

            I am happy to share more detail in a private discussion if you are interested.

          • “Does somebody need to read your books to find the treasure? Or do all the clues exist within the poem? They don’t need to read my book, but they need to read the poem. The book will help them. They can find the treasure if they can decipher the clues in the poem…There are clues in the poem that will lead you to the treasure…”

          • Radio Host: “Does somebody need to read your books to find your treasure, or do all the clues exist within the poem?”
            Forrest: “They don’t need to read my book, but they need to read the poem.”

            Why does a person need to read the poem and not the book to “find” the treasure chest?
            Because all the clues (the 9 clues) exist and are in the poem that will lead you “precisely” to the treasure chest.

            “The book will help them, but they can find the treasure if they can decipher the clues that are in the poem.”

            How does one “find” the treasure chest?
            By deciphering the clues that are in the poem.

            How does one decipher the clues in the poem?
            The hints in the book will help them.

            But f said you don’t need to read the book to “find” the chest.
            That is right, you find the chest, or in other words, you are lead precisely to the chest by the nine clues in the poem, not by the hints in the book.

            “There are hints in my book that will help you with the clues, but a clue will point you toward the treasure chest and a hint will just help you with the clues, if you can understand that.”

            Do we really understand that?

            “What I tell people to do… if you’re really serious about looking for the treasure… get ‘The Thrill of the Chase’ and read it, and then go back and read the poem over and over and over again. And then go back and read the book again, but slowly looking at every little abstract thing that might catch up in your brain, that might be a hint, to help you with the clues. Any part of some is better than no part of any.”

            Are you really serious about finding the chest?
            Then look for hints in the book that will “help” you with deciphering the meaning of the clues.

            Any part of some (hints in the book) is better than no part of any (nothing else will help a person to decipher the clues in the poem).

            Just my opinion…

      • seeker if I may put in my 2 cents – and im talking from my solve – if I was coming from the west I could start from hob and take it down from there – but if I was coming the east – I would have to start from wwwh pass hob to take it down – imo that you cant start from hob go to wwwh cause you would have to come back to hob and take it down its my opinion that wwwh and hob are in low elevation east and west of each other – that’s imo and my 2 cents

        • In your solve your using hoB as a clue after wwh no matter which direction you come in from. My point was… reading stanza 2 first sentence to be already below hoB, because hoB may be the place we need to start to look for the clues. [ as my example above]

          So my question to you is… how did you get the correct wwwh out of all the thousands of wwwh in the RM’s?
          Even if you think the poem puts you in a state… how did you get to the correct wwwh out of the hundreds of possibilities, even if you figured out the poem leads to a county, NP, NF, etc, there are still many many possibilities for wwwh… It could take decades and generations to stumble on the correct wwwh.

          A few things come to mind;
          wwwh is not the first clue.
          hoB is meant to be the ” know where to start” to find the first clue[s]. and the first “clue[s] is the sentence prior, but hoB is understood to be where to start.
          wwh canyon down and hoB are clues that tell of one location … the one answer to that location and not separate locations…. “From there”… you move on.

          Think of it this way… fenn has used “few” then “several” then “many” in regards to the first two clues [ an indication that more and more were there?] and they all seemed to have walked pass the other clues. So for the fun of it, lets say some searcher continued on for a half a mile or maybe some for a mile, others two, yet more 10 or more… [ honestly we don’t know, but apparently they didn’t either ]… What does this say to you?

          • I actually have no problem with WWWH being the “starting point”, provided you understand what that means. Suppose all of the following are clues (or parts of clues):

            Begin it where warm waters halt
            Take it in the canyon down
            Not far but too far to walk
            Put in below the home of Brown
            No place for the meek
            End is ever drawing nigh
            No paddle up your creek
            Heavy loads and water high
            You’ve been wise
            The blaze
            Your effort will be worth the cold
            You’ve been brave
            In the wood

            With the exception of WWWH and HoB, none of these is actionable. They are all dependent on external context. Only WWWH and HoB provide hooks into winnowing down the vast four-state area into a manageable (but still large) list of candidates.

            Since Fenn has flat out told us that we need to figure out where warm waters halt, why not follow his advice? I personally think HoB is going to end up being something rather obscure or unexpected, and therefore you won’t know in advance how to go about looking for it (on a map or otherwise). You will need to have your clues lead you to it rather than trying to solve for it in a vacuum.

            Something to consider: when Fenn says “You need to start at the beginning. You need to figure out where warm waters halt”, everyone seems to be assuming that Fenn is saying you need to find the correct, singular place this refers to. But an equally valid interpretation is that you need to figure out ALL the places this could refer to. THAT could be your starting point.

          • Ozi, you said…
            IMO, the first stanza tell us to listen to where Forrest keeps his riches, which are his memories/stories. Without that, all you have is 24 lines, 6 stanzas, and no context.
            There are hints to wwwh.

            I’m pickin up what ya puttin down.

            However fenn has said… “you do not need to read my book…” that is a strong statement to make if the book is the hints that are “needed” to understand the clues in the poem, or as you said, all you have is a 24 line poem.

            You said “there are hints to wwwh”… that must conclude that those hints give a specific location of one wwwh out of many. In my mind that isn’t a hint, that’s a major clue.

            As most searcher do… I can see helpful information or what fenn says, the book as a “reference” that can “help” the average person. [ comments from over the years ]. But if something in the book tells what an answer to a clue is… I can’t see that as a hint or not deliberately placed.


            1Q) Enthusiasm towards finding your treasure continues to remain strong.  So many people are enjoying the wonderful opportunity you have given them for such a bold adventure. Considering the many years the hunt has been going on, and from your perspective and interaction with searchers, do you feel searchers are becoming closer to solving the clues to the treasure, or further away? Do you feel over time, some searchers have forgotten beginning basics or thoughts they once had, and might benefit going back to them?

            There’s a lot brain power being expended on the blogs by some pretty bright people Jenny, and it seems they are having fun. But the great preponderance of searchers don’t comment publically. Very few tell me exactly where they are looking so I don’t know how close they are to the treasure. *** I’ve said searchers should go back to the poem so many times that I don’t want to say it again here. ff


            All of the information you need to find the treasure is in the poem. The chapters in my book have very subtle hints but are not deliberately placed to aid the seeker. Good luck in the search. f”

            ” You do not need to read my book, you need to decipher the clues…”

            I’m personally leaning to, by these comments and others, that the poem should tells us what we need to know. I say “tell us” because I think we are reading the poem too much like a book and not enough like a poem. and to my point of hoB might be the place we need to know of or what it means to give us a place to start looking for the clues…

            But yet again, and no offense, folks are responding about their own solves and not thinking about the poem differently, the other possibilities, or as fenn stated… the “What IFs” I know it’s hard to look at it other ways… folks have thousands of hours of research, years of botg and more research, dozens if not hundreds of trips and still more research and all they seem to do is look for another wwwh… My thought is, should we be?

            Is there intent in the poem that can say “Put in below the hoB” was meant for WWWH, canyon down, NFBTFTW to be already below hoB? And why fenn said… if I told you… you would go right to the chest? hoB may be the thing that gives us the place to start looking for the clues… just poetically, and cleverly placed in the poem. Difficult but not impossible?

            The again, I guess the book is the chase’s holy bible and with out it, the poem is useless on it’s own.

          • Zap, trust me when I say I’m with you on this; You said;
            Something to consider: when Fenn says “You need to start at the beginning. You need to figure out where warm waters halt”, everyone seems to be assuming that Fenn is saying you need to find the correct, singular place this refers to. But an equally valid interpretation is that you need to figure out ALL the places this could refer to. THAT could be your starting point.

            LOL, BUT think about the comments of the first two clues as well… searcher have told him where they were, have been, indicated etc… and walked pass…

            I bring that back up because it seems to be just that ” everyone seems to be assuming that Fenn is saying you need to find the correct, singular place this refers to.” as you said. and “But an equally valid interpretation is that you need to figure out ALL the places this could refer to. THAT could be your starting point.”
            Again I see that… the problem is does it not require more than one line [ clue if you will ] to come to that conclusion?

            I’m still flippin and turnin on what a clue is to what an answer is and how many clues give an answer… but I can see the poem read as the clues referring to a couple or few places and not 9 separate places… so your comment works with that thought.

          • Seeker,

            Please provide a reference(with link) where Fenn said “you don’t have to read my book”. I will be providing quotes that suggest otherwise.

          • “What I recommend is that you read my book normally. Then you read the poem over and over and over again, and just think about .. think about .. every line. Read it 4 or 5, 10 times. And then go back and read the book again slowly, looking for hints in the book that will help you with clues in the poem” (Could not find source quotation link, I believe it was from a video”

          • Ozi,
            The quote you asked about can be found here on the media page. You need to listen for yourself.

            You posted; From Forrest Fenns very own site : “The book contains clues to the treasure’s location as Forrest Fenn invites readers to join in The Thrill of the Chase.”
            Do you find it interesting that the web page is written in the second party?

            “This book is the remarkable true story of Forrest Fenn’s life and of a hidden treasure, secreted somewhere in the mountains north of Santa Fe. The book contains clues to the treasure’s location as Forrest Fenn invites readers to join in The Thrill of the Chase. If you are searching for Forrest’s treasure please stay safe…”

            Not that it means anything really, but the dusk cover of the book claims almost the same. My point is, the dust cover is an add on [ separate from the book ] and usually done by the publisher, the web page may be a member of the family I don’t know but it’s doesn’t seem to be written in the first party… I tent to lean toward quotes fenn writes himself or on an video interview. ALL those quotes only mention [ as far as I can tell ] hints in the book.

            Fenn himself was asked if there are clues in the book… he answered yes, because the poem is in the book…

            Anyways, like I said the quote for ” you don’t need to read my book…” is found on the media page, I believe it was the OH radio interview.

          • All I need is the poem. Because the poem tells me where he can keep his secret. If you wish to disregard Forrests additional quotes, that is certainly your prerogative.

          • Hera ya go Ozi…

            A Columbus, OH radio Station aired this interview with Forrest on December 3rd, 2015. It’s HERE.

          • Seeing I use this quote a lot… I’ll give the whole quote;
            “They don’t need to read my book, but they need to read the poem. The book will help, but they can find the treasure if they can decipher the clues that are in the poem”

          • “Does somebody need to read your books to find the treasure? Or do all the clues exist within the poem? They don’t need to read my book, but they need to read the poem. The book will help them. They can find the treasure if they can decipher the clues in the poem…There are clues in the poem that will lead you to the treasure…”

          • There ya go ya found it… Ok, what does that say to you?

            If you want to think that the poem tells us to go to the book… I at one time thought so as well… sure why not.
            I’m not saying the book is not helpful, but the book doesn’t hold answers to the clues. imo. not by that comment and many others.

            But lets face it… this is not the first comment[s] that has confuse searchers.

            Lets play with the wording… no need to read the book… no need to read the book like most folks read any book?

            Need to decipher the clues in the poem… nothing new there.

            The book will help… we’ve been told the book will help the average person with the poem. Does that mean the book is needed? other than it was the way to present the poem to the public.

            YET… It does seem there is a possibility that the poem direct us to the book. I maybe crazy but i’m not an idiot..lol… so now here’s the dilemma. if we don’t need to read the book.. how do we find anything helpful from the book other than the poem itself?

            You mentioned hints of riches new and old to pertain to the book… I could add… If you are brave [ brave meaning to take on a challenge ] and in the wood [ wood meaning the pages within the book ] and still add the answers I already know to mean the information in the book as well.

            Many have thought and still think this is how to crack the poem… and here we are 5.5 years running and not one person knows a single clue… as far as fenn is concerned by what folks have told him. Sure some where at or near some clues, some were very close to the chest, but none of those folks knew they had the clues, by what fenn has stated.

            Could it be other text within the book? quotes from others that fenn mention? picture? illustrations? Or could the simple answer be what fenn as preached from the beginning… Are there clues in the book? Yes because the poem is in the book… That for me tell why the dust cover and web page mention clues in the book…. the poem is in the book. And since that time fenn as repeated go back to the poem. and the above radio program seems to confirm that.

            Ozi, you said; “All I need is the poem. Because the poem tells me where he can keep his secret. If you wish to disregard Forrests additional quotes, that is certainly your prerogative.”

            Great, but I think I have made a good argument for the book is a good reference and helpful… but will not give answers. So give me something other than a hunch, it may help me and possibly others to attempt to understand what fenn is telling us… that is why were here, right?

          • Allow me to give my two cents worth to anyone who will contemplate it for a moment. You do not need the book to solve the clues in the poem. But once you solve the clues in the poem, the book will help confirm those Clues have been solved correctly. Once you find out what the first clue is and After the first clue is exposed, things begin to pop out of the book that become obvious hints. This is all of my opinion of course since I do not have the chest in my possession but June 22nd is my magical date and I will be heading out to the mountains somewhere north of Santa Fe to see if I am correct. I am very excited, but also aware of everyone else’s excitement and then subsequent failure. However, if I were to share folks I believe there would be a rush to my area. It is one of the best and most logical Solutions I have seen on the blog

          • David,

            Best in your search. I still recall fenn saying [ paraphrasing because i’m getting too lazy to go look for more quotes again ] there are hints in the book if you know what to look for… so I agree with your view. At least for today, tomorrow may be another story.

            You don’t need to tell what your answers to the clues are.. but can you share how you came about them? c’mon throw us a bone… we don’t bite, but I do laugh a lot.

          • For a skeptic, the question is…If the book will help, what does it help to do if not help solve the clues? If EXCELLENT research materials are the book, GE, and a map, excellent to research what if not help to research to solve the clues?
            A little common sense and deductive reasoning dictate there being a purpose for the book, a purpose for his participation. And there is also his repeated quotes.
            With all that said, if after 5.5 years with the words alone this hasnt been solved, it is your prerogative to continue doing the same thing. But do expect the same results 🙂

          • One last thing, to quote the dust cover
            “Unlock the clues that are scattered among these pages…”
            The poem is not scattered among the pages. It is wholly on page 132. Should you continue to believe that Forrest saying “the poem is in the book” are the only clues, that again is your prerogative.

          • Ozi,
            You keep mentioning the dust cover… most dust covers are done by a publisher and normally after the book is written. Fenn has stated there are hints in the book if you know what your looking for… and the hints in the book are not deliberately placed to aid the seeker… you said;
            “IMO, the first stanza tell us to listen to where Forrest keeps his riches, which are his memories/stories. Without that, all you have is 24 lines, 6 stanzas, and no context.”
            That sounds like, if you can’t find the answers in the book the poem is non-solvable… no context. we just end up with a 24 line poem and nothing to go with it. essentially making the book to hold the answers to the poem…

            We’re not having a discussion any more about possibilities, we’re just throwing quotes out like a game battleship and see who sinks first. I’ll leave with these quote to consider…

            “There are nine clues in the poem, but if you read the book (TTOTC), there are a couple…there are a couple of good hints and there are a couple of aberrations that live out on the edge.”

            How many are a “couple” ? if we’re looking for 9 clue answers.

            Mr. Fenn, Is there any level of knowledge of US history that is required to properly interpret the clues in your poem. ~Steve R
            No Steve R,
            The only requirement is that you figure out what the clues mean. But a comprehensive knowledge of geography might help.ff

            I guess you can add, knowledge of geography to the book and the maps… This was fun while it lasted.

          • “You keep mentioning the dust cover… most dust covers are done by a publisher and normally after the book is written.”
            You mean One Horse Land & Cattle Co, owned by Fenn?

          • Yes and he still had a publisher. The thing about a dust cover is they get destroyed or lost… some book never come with a dusk cover.
            In fact some of the TOTC book searchers had this very conversation a while back… they never received a dust cover on many books… so how relayable can information from one be?

            Fenn published the book tftw and even then a mistake was made and not found till after the printing… hence the unintended clue in the book.
            My suggestion is to look up every quote you can find on hints and clues about the book and review them all… Several searcher I know are doing the same with the first clue[s] and have found interesting facts.

  39. JD,
    tick, tick, tick, tick, tick, tick, tick, tick, tick,
    Nine ticks, hope you got them all right.
    Save me some money & go get the honey for the cap B.
    I like Brown crow pie.
    Something tells me I will eat more than you when I go.
    You’ll have your day.
    Good luck in staying safe & uncommon sense will lead the way.

  40. Thanks Jake;

    I am not sure that I have ever been as excited about tomorrow’s possibilities as I am now. Each of my previous trips was exciting, but knowing that ice was my biggest hindrance really threw cold water on my hopes – pun intended!

    I expect that all of the ice will be melted tomorrow. I will either find the treasure, or I will prepare myself a buffet luncheon of Crow and humble pie.

    Being the eternal optimist – I am not packing a bib.

    Good luck to ALL searchers, may you find what you seek, and STAY SAFE


  41. Does anyone know the gentleman that was at Fennboree and had is dog named Suzy Q and his wife could not see. If you do could you please pass my phone number to him and ask him to give me a call at 618-713-3076. I need to talk to him.

    • Sourdough – This is Jeff from Fennboree. My wife, Andi, and I talked to you at length at Fennboree. We were wearing the tie dyed Fennboree shirts. As soon as you get this message could you give me a call at 618-713-3076.

  42. “Put in below the home of Brown”
    Put in has been described as, put in to water or go into water, even a cave etc. However “put in’ also mean; order.
    Is this line in the poem telling us we need to put/follow the poem in “order” [ consecutive, contiguous ] below the home of Brown?

    Remember what was known at the beginning of this challenge. I think that is very important when reading the poem… we tend to simple overlook certain information the poem might be relaying, because of fenn’s helpful after the fact comments… such as… the clues are consecutive / contiguous.
    This is might be the same as. In the mountains north of SF to mean the RM’s. which was not a ‘known’ fact until fenn answered this in a Q&A. [ just asked the folks who were searching AZ, NV and the Dakotas ].

    Another words… are the clue all below hoB, the place to start and the poem dictates WWWH, canyon down, not far to be what is below and “from there” is a continuation of the poem. Can the “poem” be “telling” us exactly the order we need to know and still hold true to consecutive and contiguous?

    Is this the important possibility fenn stated?
    The reason why no one knew they had the first clue[s]? Didn’t understand the significance of where they were?
    Does WWH change its meaning by knowing what hoB refers to?
    Could this be why fenn has stated folks don’t dwell enough of the first clue?
    Why, without the first clue… you got notta…?
    Is this what fenn meant about… What IF’s ~ after Dal posted the throwing darts post?
    Could it be… That all the information to locate the chest be in the poem. And the poem tells us how to read itself? Not only read it correctly, but straightforwards as well?

    Food for thought…

      • lol…my straightforward to your straightforward are two different directions…
        Without getting into all the details and being repetitive to what I have already said… straightforwards to me is in all honesty that the poem can be understood how to locate the chest… you and others seem to lean to simple following it like a road map.

        To answer your question… no I don’t accept the poem straightforward like a map. I do accept, it explains ~ by describing something.

        In my explanation above I have the entire poem below hoB… the first thing needed to be known. WWH may be closely related but wwh may not be the first thing needed to be known. That is a contradiction to your straightforward process.

        Now in all honesty… we both are probably complete wrong…

        • As I stated before, everybody’s meaning of straightforward is different.
          Add a little twist or embellish a little but not too much.

          “In my explanation above I have the entire poem below hoB”
          And take it in the canyon DOWN,
          hoB is after down.

          Yea, we are probably wrong & may end up at the same spot even though we think differently.

          • Yeah Jake I know… you’re hoping the poem is simplistic and neatly stacked. And a canyon can only mean one thing, halt is only to mean stop, in the wood has always meant woods and the blaze is all we really need to find the chest.

            I mean it’s not like fenn chose a poem to present the clues to make it difficult, right? So lets skip stanza one as there can’t be a clue there, cuz we all know clue one is WWWH and ends with the Blaze, and the next 11 lines couldn’t possibly hold a clue… Those are just fenn telling us to hear and listen to 9 line in the poem, that really counts.

            Lets talk more after you journeyed 10,20 or searches and come back with nothing more than great memories… that’s what its all about anyways … right?

          • Oh come now seeker, i expect better from you. That sarcasm and judgementalism is unbecoming.

            I could argue in turn that what do you know after being wrong 10 or 20 times. Why would anyone aspire to follow in those footsteps? What happened to the convoluted but largely humble poster that I came to respect? I’m disappointed.

            It is distinctly possible and I would even argue probable as well that it is mostly dumbfoundingly simple. If his intended goal was to inspire people of all walks to have a chance and to be engaged placating the high minded and overly complex sorts of intellectuals seems counter productive.

          • All we have is hope. It’s what keeps us going.
            Yup! As simple as it reads.
            I’m pretty sure I won’t be making 10 or 20 trips.
            I set my exit from this stage ahead of time.
            All you guys & gals can keep chasing your tails till the end of time.
            You can keep on asking the same questions over & over again & get the same results.
            There are those that do a lot of talking & little walking & those that walk the talk.
            I don’t expect to find the treasure. That would be a miracle if I did.
            Someone will find it someday & put this show to rest, but for the time being I am enjoying every aspect of it.
            Let me quote the man to answer your question:
            “Don’t be influenced by those who say they know, but don’t.f”
            Hope will be redirected back to where it was before.

          • hey jake when are you heading out? I’m packing today to hopefully leave tomorrow. Its a day and a half long trip for me most likely.

          • Catching a flight Tuesday morning & will begin searching on Wednesday.
            Where’s your destination?
            I’m heading to SW Montana to search the Madison’s in the Gallatin National Forrest.

          • Almost the same, like so many before, madison and firehole rivers mostly.

            I’ve got a few other places and a few other states. I don’t have terrible many responsibilities and am independently impoverished so I might check a few other spots further south but I’ll decide that after my 3-4 favorite solves fail.

            Ill try to keep in contact on here via my phone but I suspect signal service in some of these areas is spotty at best.

            I plan to stay mostly a Madison camp ground. If you happen across a deliberately ugly and jury rigged dirt bike (’99 klr650) covered in poorly tied on military surplus and flying a pirate pennant that can be no one else. So please do get my attention we could share a drink and some camp fire spam while bsing about how clever we both are.

          • Staying in YNP Dys,
            I have been interested in the creek about 1 mile West where your staying.
            It flows close from Three Brothers into the Madison.
            Secret Valley Creek also caught my attention flowing into the Gibbon.
            I can see the clues going right through the area your staying.
            I think Dal is searching around there or around west Yellowstone this spring.
            If I see your dirt bike unattended, I will have to take it for a ride, it’s been I while, don’t worry, I’ll bring it back.
            I consider around where your staying to be the home of Brown.
            My solve takes me a little further West & North of West Yellowstone.
            If we get a chance, me & my bro will stop by but probably not.
            Have a safe & fun quest.

          • dys, you’re correct. I was attempting to use the same vernacular as Jake enjoys.
            It seems I got my point across. But Jake’s a big boy, i’m sure he won’t lose any sleep over it.

            Thing is, when something is said as an idea that the poem is read differently than most hope it to be… there seems to be a trend to knock that thought without any explanation to why.

            Maybe Jake would like to come back with an explanation of how my previous post can’t be a usable line of thinking.

            The start of my post;
            “Put in below the home of Brown”
            Put in has been described as, put in to water or go into water, even a cave etc. However “put in’ also mean; order.
            Is this line in the poem telling us we need to put/follow the poem in “order” [ consecutive, contiguous ] below the home of Brown?

            Honestly, I want feed back from anyone and everyone on any of my post. I hope that when I rebuttal another’s post they see that is exactly what my intent is… give them feed back that may help… and not inundate their post with nonsense rebuttal.

            I think most here want to hear why something could be correct or why it may not be sound. That is the whole point of posting our thoughts… to get constructive feed back. At least that is the reason I’m here posting.

            But unfortunately, and most recently, the feed back by some has been nothing more but their one and only way to see the poem and anything else is wrong.

            I made the comment that hoB might be the starting point or the “know where to start” to find the clues. I’m open for a discussion from either side. But if all I get is hoB is below wwwh… then they didn’t read my post and seemly don’t want to discuss alternative possibilities or the What IF’s… trust me … I won’t lose any sleep over that either.

          • Seeker you said…
            “Is this line in the poem telling us we need to put/follow the poem in “order” [ consecutive, contiguous ] below the home of Brown?”

            I guess that is one place to start but wouldn’t you be discounting a lot of words in the first few stanzas? Or would you come back to those for the last few clues?

          • Spallies,

            I wrote a full explanation but it seems I ran out of tokens. so here’s the short version. Hint of riches new and old I believe related to not only the poem but hoB specifically. So no I don’t leave out any thing in stanza 1… it’s more about what a clue is to us, to what a clue means to fenn.

            In my comment above I try to explain why hoB may be the place to start… don’t get that confused as i’m saying it’s the first clue. We [ the searchers ] have talked about wwwh being the first clue… some willing to fight to the death it has to be… yet they dismiss all the years of fenn telling us… we “ignore” the first clue… we don’t “dwell enough” on the first clue. if you don’t “have the first clue nailed down” all you have is a nice memories.

            We have been told…There are many wwwh in the RM’s … are we “over simplifying” the poem?

          • Question posted 6/20/2014:

            I have a question for Mr. Fenn:
            When you hid your treasures, did you take the same path that is described in the poem, or were you able to skip some of the steps because of your familiarity with the area?
            Thank you Curtis

            “The clues should be followed in order Curtis. There is no other way to my knowlege.” F
            Seeker, this is the way I see it(at this time). Now, if I can just throw it down in a coherent manner!

            Given everything he has said about searchers walking past the other seven clues, and the chest, I think the above answer is telling us that once you begin the actual BOTG you will be able to identify, and physically pass, each of the remaining clues…..until you reach the chest.

            How does that relate to your theory of HOB?? I think it means that if the prior clues: #1, #2, #3 or whatever lead you to, and identify HOB, then it is possible that HOB could be the actual beginning.

            However, I would also throw out that he said WWWH could be reverse engineered from HOB…. “If” you have a HOB, can you, without bias, look critically at your HOB and honestly say if that was all you had that you could reverse engineer and identify WWWH??

            …….He has referenced WWWH enough, and in different ways, that it is a very real concept, whether physical or metaphorical. And it can be and must be identified, whether you “begin” there or not.

            As always, I like your train of thought. At present I am doing something similar with the last stanza. I think it may hold something that aids in identifying the area where WWWH is located. That stanza does appear to relate, after all he did have to go in there also in order to leave the chest.

            Don’t let the trolls bite ya!!! :)

          • loco: “Don’t let the trolls bite ya!!!”

            If you keep sticking your fingers in the cage, you should expect some to be missing.

            Seems to me, we are having trouble reading how the poem reads.

          • loco, I pay my shrinks top dollar.
            I expect them to diagnose my mental condition & treat it accordingly.
            Now, here I am on Dal’s site where almost everyone is a shrink including myself.
            The good, it’s free.
            The bad, you get what you paid for.

            How is it that “put in” means “order”?
            I couldn’t find this obscure def. & if I did it doesn’t flow.

          • Well hello jake,

            While I do appreciate your concern for my digits, I always wear Kevlar gloves when dealing with the little pests. All of my digits are accounted for and in fine fettle.

            I am so sorry to hear you are having trouble reading…..perhaps a remedial course would be beneficial??

            I see where you are contemplating a trip to the mountains? I do hope you have a wonderful vacation and bring back lots of memories!!

          • Jake,
            I’m giving food for thought here, like any of my other post… now you want me to do your homework for you? You need to look hard for word usages. Did you know that the word Cold has over 50 usages?
            Meanings of words, definitions of words are great to know… but more importantly, in a poem that allows the author freedom of word usage [ and not Harvard lit. usage], you might want to dig a little deeper.

            Because I’m such a nice guy… I’ll give an example: If you were to look at a picture/painting of a canyon, and I said… take it in. Are you going to attempt to walk into the picture/painting? I guess it all depends if you had one too many… but normally, it simply means to view the picture/painting. Is that so different to “take it in the canyon down”… in a poem?

            There is always another usage to a word, words, phrase, sentence etc. that means something other than what is first interpret… and still be straightforwards.

          • Our homework is only as good as the final grade by the teacher.
            As far as your theories go, you get an A.
            But proving your theories is an F.
            I know you like to look at many different angles when trying to figure the poem.
            But which angle makes the most sense after the straightforward statement?
            Why wouldn’t someone happen upon it?
            Would it be fair to say the area where the treasure is located is a very low traffic area & all the clues in the poem are not in close proximity?
            Those searchers & people that figured the first 2 clues & then went by the other 7 including the treasure may have been days apart.

            Your example is poor at best.
            Keep looking at obscure usage of words & you will find yourself in the 10,000 year zone & I will be there waiting for you.

        • Loco,

          Question posted 7/2/2014:
          “Do you think that someone who is sure about the location of the home of Brown could reverse-engineer where warm waters halt? ~Ben Raylor
          Thanks for the question Ben.
          If you are sure about the location of home of Brown why are you concerned about where warm waters halt? But to answer your question, sure you could and a few searchers might throw in some gas money for a percentage of the take. Good luck.f”

          IF my thoughts of hoB is [ and this part is very important ] ” the know where to start” or where to find the first clue[s]. One need to ask a couple of questions. Is WWWH the start of the “clues” ? What I’m attempting here is to find the starting point and not so much the first clue… I think they may correlate to each other but are not the same.
          Another question is, IF wwh is not the first clue as most hope it to be… the reverse engineering can be done but why ” be concerned about it ” So I can see how one would say to reverse from hoB to wwwh would be placing wwh first…. Now look at it this way… what IF hoB is the entire area? Meaning that all the clues are present within the hoB or the “know where to start”… reverse engineering can be done at any clue point.

          “Forrest, you have stated that several searchers correctly identified the first two clues in your poem. Could you tell us how many searchers to your knowledge have correctly identified the first clue correctly? Thanks. ~49 Dollars
          No 49, I cannot tell you how many searchers have identified the first clue correctly, but certainly more than several. I cannot imagine anyone finding the treasure without first identifying the starting point, although many seem to be preoccupied with later clues. To me that’s just expensive folly. f”

          Why is it that many have identified the first clues to fenn, and fenn then states “. I cannot imagine anyone finding the treasure without first identifying the starting point, although many seem to be preoccupied with later clues.”

          Add in the all those other comment of “ignoring the first clue”.. ‘don’t dwell enough on the first clue” … “without the first clue”, all you have is memories of a nice vacation. etc. Doesn’t that seem a bit odd, if wwh is the first clue?

          To put in as to mean put in order, this gives me pause to think we need to place “clues” in order [ meaning consecutive and contiguous ] after hoB.
          You know better then most all the comments about the first clue[s] over the last 5 years… doesn’t it seem strange that fenn keeps repeating we don’t know the first clue? even the ones who had told fenn where they were, indicated there solves etc.

          Again, My attempt here is to understand why all those searchers, not only couldn’t finish the search from the first two clues, but why they didn’t know they had the first clue[s]. Something is missing in how the poem is understood. The one consistent problem I see is, thinking WWWH is the place to be at. and it seems fenn might be indicating the same… we ignore the first clue.

          • Seekr,

            Yes, I comprehend what you are saying. And, no, I do not think WWWH is the first clue. As you said, he has stressed “the know where to start” too many times….WWWH can’t be the 1st clue. “The where to start” must be determined initially regardless whether it then leads to HOB, or WWWH.

            HOB as “where to start”?? Hmmmm…. if that is the case then something, in the Poem, has to identify it, or at least get you to the area, otherwise it is just a guess. That would be the same thing as “guessing” what WWWH is.

            Fenn-“ If you are sure about the location of home of Brown why are you concerned about where warm waters halt?” – – – This indicates that given the HOB, one does not need to know what, or where, WWWH is.

            IF your HOB is the area (where to start) and the clues are all within it, it would seem that you woud still need to know what the Poem is referring to as WWWH?…..unless you are stating that anything prior to HOB is not needed???

            For me, it no longer matters why searchers “got” the first two clues and didn’t know it. What is important, from Fenn’s perspective, is that they imparted something to him in a manner that allows him to say they had gotten the answer and then they walked past the other seven. They were in the correct area. But not knowing “what” (in the Poem) represents those clues was their downfall. A searcher must understand where in the Poem those two clues are in order to identify the next clue.

            Aaaand……if there is nothing in the Poem that allows a searcher, at some point, to gain some confidence in their interpretation…..” Until someone finds the treasure they will not know for sure that they have discovered the first clue.”……then there is absolutely no way anyone can proceed with confidence. Boots On The Ground, or Eyes On The Computer. It won’t matter.

          • Loco,
            Yes… there must be something to indicate what hoB or any place to start. Now the question come to this. Does the ‘know where to start” have to be in the same order as the “clues”? Another words… should fenn indicate we need to find this location to find the “clues” and tells us in the poem where that location is… would you consider that a clue itself or an actual answer and not a “clue”

            It’s a catch 22 scenario, I know. But would be clever. Like I said before to Spallies, I think Hint of riches new and old gives part of hoB and the understanding of the poem itself. But I can’t rule out stanza 5 and 6 doing the same… or at least… I see a connection.

            What I end up with is, I’m back to what is a hint to what is a clue? and it doesn’t matter if one looks at 9 lines or 9 sentences. So to be honest, I’m at a location that is small and hold all the clues in a very short perimeter. But the location is far off the beaten track. My thought is why those who were there walked pass the other seven clues… their reading of the poem lead they away, my reading of the poem tells me to stay/stop.

            Well One reading of the poem anyways…

          • Seeker, I think I finally understand your comments. You amplify intentional phenomenology to demonstrate some of the unique possibilities this methodology might afford qualitative researchers interested in experimenting with entangled connections among seemingly disparate philosophies, theories, and methodologies. Specifically, you extend your amplification to the concept of reflexivity by conceptualizing an entangled post-reflexivity as a generative methodological move in post-intentional phenomenology specifically and in qualitative research more generally. You experiment with how the concept of reflexivity might become, leading us to theorize an entangled post-reflexivity that aims to incite methodological movements and possibilities for qualitative inquiry.

            I get it now……….fire up the truck; I’m going to retrieve the chest.

          • Oh… as far as confidence… I think that is about understanding the poem and not so much knowing the answers to the clues “beforehand” There is more to this poem than simple directions to be stomped. imo.

          • You can put your confidence anywhere you like but I will go with physical movement.
            “The person who finds the treasure will have studied the poem over and over, and thought, and analyzed and moved with confidence.”

            I feel bad about your disabilities Seeker & I mean that.

          • Goofy… Thank God someone finally gets me!!.
            Then again all my methodologies could be a tad off and all we really need to do is buy a new map and dart set and begin it all over again.

            But please don’t waste your gas on what I say… the chest will be around for a while, I’m actually waiting for the hovercraft to be invented to I can glide right of the chest…

            Here’s a serious question though… If all those folks who told fenn where they were, and/or indicated the first two clue[s] and by fenn’s own admission they didn’t know they had the first clue… how can waters of any kind be the first clue? if all we need to do with the poem is follow the 9 clues.

            Other than SnC coordinate theory and one other I can’t mention… every solve I heard of or read about has WWWh as the first clue. I mean even JayA started at WWWh. The woman from Vermont that spent an over night stay with the chest but had to get back to her cattle started at WWWh… How in the world didn’t all those searchers not know about the first clue when they all live and breathe WWWh?

          • Seeker, Fenn has said you won’t know if you have the correct clues until you find the chest.

            “Waters” may or may not be the first clue. But it is where we start, because that’s where the poem tells us to begin. So any physical search will begin at WWWH.

            In my opinion, if one has found the correct WWWH the searcher that is wise and understands the poem will proceed with confidence and not go by the other seven clues.

          • LOL!! Seeker, I truly love it when you get Dal and Goofy to come out and play!!! 🙂

            Dal, thanks for the links….that may be my next option!

            Goofy’s Opine: if one has found the correct WWWH the searcher that is wise and understands the poem will proceed with confidence and not go by the other seven clues.

            Goofy, what if WWWH is the third clue?? LOL!! But I agree with the basic tenet. “If” a searcher finds the correct WWWH, and recognizes it as such, then they will be able to proceed with confidence. The question is, how to recognize that it is correct. If everything one needs is in the Poem, then there must be a method of confirmation.

            For those who think WWWH is the 1st clue:

            “Many people have found the first clue but they didn’t know it.” —-If many people have found the “first clue”, then just look around for all the peeps……It is STANDING ROOM ONLY at that location!!!! 🙂

          • Dal, too funny I actually have that dart set. The wife and I visit the Distillery some years back when we moved to TN… I got the darts she got a hundred year old bottle of whiskey. Ok, she got the whiskey for her, and all I could afford was the dart set. I have no Idea where the set is now, more than likely in my man cave… better known as the tool shed. But the bottle of whiskey is on display next to the wife’s Chrystal collection… untapped. Interesting note; Lynchburgh, where the Jack Danial distillery use to be, is a dry county. That’s why I live 2 1/2 hours away.

            Now about that map… is there a clue to be found on that one?

  43. imo take it in the canyon down is a direction – I think that but in below the home of brown is also a direction- a way to get to the chest

  44. Frank
    The way f has put this poem/riddle together is all a direction.. All the way to bend down and pick up the chest. After that f does care anymore. He has even said once the finder has it he doesn’t want to tell them what to do with it.. I have a solid solve but I have it as a poem. I am now looking at it as a riddle as they are 2 different ways of solving them.. You can’t solve a poem as a riddle and you can’t solve a riddle as a poem. IMHO

  45. Hello everyone..I see nobody as found the TC? I guess u all r saving it for ME..Thank you…IMO Begin it WWWH is the first clue (Wyoming)…and the TC is in (treasure State)..good luck to all maybe soon I will go start my adventure..I know where I’m going will be breath taking and who knows maybe I will go cool off and enjoy the fight where FF loved to go

    • Yes Woody we are saving it just for you.
      We are too busy trying to figure out how the poem is to be figured out.
      I agree with starting in WY & ceasing in MT.
      Just leave a few coins there to know I had the place pegged.
      Watch out for the griz.

  46. Jake, thanks, yea, grizzly that’s where the Brave part comes in to play..go into the woods..I don’t know how far FF went into the woods but for our sake I hope no more than 10 yrds from the edge..too far and FF would not beable to see the beauty of the mountain peaks, flowing water, animals, and flowers…Trust me if I find the TC I will give u a coin..but u might find it first..to find the TC u must know where is clue #3 and 4, Not far, but too far to walk..Put in below the home of Brown, What if, this is the same location (treasure state), hehehe

  47. just my opinion, but I have two solves and two different “home of Brown” but they are not the home that most seem to think of from what I’ve read. And they could be considered tangents by most. I will check them this summer and see if any of my solves are correct. Luckily for me, they are not to far from each other.

    • Most have different ideas for hoB. I have wondered how specific hoB is. We know that there are many WWWH… could this be the same for hoB? We could also say there’s my canyons, which seems obvious… many wwwh…many canyons…tftw seems to imply many if one considers distance…why not many hoB with the same perspective? Or at the very least a larger area it may refer to.

      Just rambling n rumbling

      • @ Seeker
        I tend to agree with that. I have 2 hob’s in my solve and actually one leads toward the other, close but not close enough. OH OK, it did work out. One did lead me to the other, Then it was no place for the meek IMHO

      • I see your point,

        I originally posted my thoughts just to subscribe.

        I do fear as most it seems to post my HoB’s because I would like to check it out first before the someone who reads it is closer than I can search the area I’m interested in before I can get the time and money to venture out and BOTG as they say.

        But I believe, that we all have a desire to trust and talk to someone else who is as interested in the chase as we ourselves are. And hope, I believe, to ignite some discussion but cyriptic posts.

        I do respect the opinions and insight this site has to offer. And I do wish to contribute my solution with the community. It’s not the community that worries me. I do feel that my solution would be an acceptable contribution and if I do not find the chest on my next adventure, I will fully explain my interpretation of the poem.

        As that being said, I don’t feel that I am any greater than anyone else, we are all on common ground as far as the poem goes, for only the architect knows the true path.

  48. Lol… I found a listing on Wikipedia for HOB acronyms…. #21 was:
    “HOB, acronym for Home of Brown, in relation to the treasure hunt, “The Thrill of the Chase””

    I’m sure many of you already saw this but it made me laugh So I thought I would share…:)

  49. And this is a freebe from me……the HOB gives you more of the elevation than location…it will hint at location though.

    • Sorry Jon, I just can not agree. In my humble opinion, hoB has absolutely nothing to do with elevation, other than it is lower in elevation than wwwh, because you have taken the canyon down.

      Good luck though and TRY to STAY SAFE


  50. I hear ya JD… To each his own. Lets discuss. When it says “PUT in below the HOB” You can eliminate North, East, or West and assume it would be South of to equal under or it’s buried under which we can eliminate. And all you are left with is elevation.

    Now I think I have the HOB clue and it kept puzzling me because the location I have is North of HOB but close….But clearly when I check the elevation, it is under. Which had I kept that thought with me when I went on my last trek, I would have been able to find the treasure immediately…

    Don’t go where an 80 year old man would not go! That is key to that line because FF has been pretty descriptive about elevation so it matters. That is the only line in the poem you could tie into elevation. Thoughts???

  51. Jon;

    No paddles up your creek implies a stream of some kind, and I see this as above hoB, so yes I see this line as relating to elevation.


    • No paddles up your creek is a dry creek….you know what is interesting…he never said too far to hike…I digress to a level field with hills like a desert…a canyon is from where large amounts of water once traveled…so water high will be a place you can see old water marks. Keep it up JD and you and I will become a team!!!!

  52. Everyone – I just wanted to post this link to the Key Word thread,…where we were discussing “home of Brown”,…because “Brown” as “Brown” trout was their Key Word:


    For my solve, I have these hoBs,…where I “put in below”:

    Brown trout (in Hegben Lake and Jacklin’s 10lb Brown – see the Madison River video I posted above)
    Brown bear (Big Brown Boar Grizzly aka. My Grizz)
    Brown creek (Notorious source of Brown with a capital “B” to a fly fisherman)
    Brown bat (Big Brown and Little Brown,…how could we forget the cute bats???!!)

    I found a deceased Liitle Brown Myotis at my campsite the first night I stayed in my search area. Many are suffering from White Nose Syndrome:


    This morning,…I spoke to a well-traveled fly fisherman about fishing in Montana,…as in where to catch the really big browns. He said one of his biggest he caught was in Hebgen Lake recently,…at 28″. The guide took it into the boat,…detached it from the hook,…then massaged it to revive it. It sunk to the bottom and went belly-up in 10ft. of water. He dove in,…did all that again,…and it sunk AGAIN! He repeated the diving and massaging in the boat THREE times,…and then the Big Brown finally swam away,…so he could be caught by Forrest on his next trip. 🙂

  53. Wonder if someone is searching the right place but just misunderstands Home of Brown. Hope my HOB comments help someone else to examine their current solve and make adjustments.

    I personally think Brown is capitalized to draw attention to it, and not because it is a Name of a person, place, or thing. I believe you cannot get past WWWH if you don’t correctly understand HOB.

    I don’t count clues, because I think it is important to understand the entire poem, hints, clues and all. However, I do believe that HOB is the starting point. Perhaps that might suggest why it is capitalized.

    I think a lot of folks are finding WWWH, going in the canyon, and looking for HOB. Stop! Back up! I think you have it backwards. “Begin it where warm waters halt, and take it in the canyon down. . .Put in below the home of Brown” I feel certain that you are supposed to put in below HOB to start WWWH. The start is below HOB. I’m sure of it. IMO of course

    Next. I strongly believe that most folks are not picking up the correct clues from TTOTC, in regard to HOB.

    Let me suggest what I believe to be possible clues from TTOTC

    P 24. “Her mouth was moving in fast cadence with her choppy steps and it was obvious that RAGE HAD FOUND A HOME”

    Clearly rage doesn’t actually live anywhere but this suggests it has a home. This quote might help us to re-examine our idea of home.

    P 78
    “Dangerous air lived in great abundance”

    Doesn’t this suggest another idea of a home? A home of dangerous air.

    P 27
    “old iron rust thing. . . heavy brown color”

    Now I know that RUST is a synonym for brown and it also comes from iron when iron is exposed to water. Iron is mentioned repeatedly in TTOTC; iron nails, etc. I think it would be accurate to say that IRON IS A HOB, or at least one type of HOB.

    P 38
    “brown out of the oven”

    Forrest was talking about his mother browning toast in the oven. The children would cover it with jam and imagine it was their favorite dessert.

    I see this as a suggestion that an oven is a HOB. A few days ago, my family was toasting marshmallows over a campfire. It occurred to me that a fire is also a HOB.

    This leads us to the next hint (imo) about HOB

    P. 42
    “Forrest liked to lay under the wagon wheel where he could watch the gypsies dance around the fire, with the flashing flames seeming to dance with the music. He said he could “still hear it in my dreams”.

    Why can he still hear the music and the dancing in his dreams? It didn’t seem like an important enough event to still hear in dreams so many years later. I think it is a suggestion that the FIRE is a hint. Perhaps a hint for HOB?

    Please 48

    Now this page is full of hints I believe, and some of them are completely hidden in a story and can only be seen when you understand the correct WWWH. Then suddenly you can see that the entire page is describing WWWH. This is my opinion of course. But when I found what I believe is WWWH! I was stunned to re-read this page and see something completely hidden from view the previous hundred times I read it. But back to HOB

    P 48
    “brown gravy”

    I don’t think it’s the gravy that matters here. I think it’s the cooking over a stove, an oven or a fire.

    What I am suggesting is that HOB is going to take a bit more imagination that finding a place named Brown, named after a Brown or even Brown Bears or Brown Trout.

    I can’t help wondering if the folks searching near the Firehole might be missing the possibility that FIRE.is the HOB and may not realize that WWWH should be below HOB and not the other way around

    I think this info could help someone rework a solve to get the TC.

  54. I really wish you all would solve this riddle. I’ve only just learned of this hidden treasure two hours ago, and already it’s driving me nuts. 🙂

  55. Not sure if anyone has suggested this before. The “home of Brown” could be a UPS hub near or at the place from where you begin the real journey. Just thought I’d throw that into the mix. 🙂

  56. One other thing—it seems the poem was written before it was divulged that the chest was not in Canada, Utah or Idaho. If the poem is a type of Dutch Boy painting (poem within a poem within a poem) Brown could possibly refer to Roy Brown who shot down Baron Von Richtofen.

    “Put in below the home of Brown”—Roy Brown was a Canadian. I mention this because of his being a pilot.

    When I say poem within a poem what I mean is that there could be a few “Home of Browns” that are intended. On a Country scale, a state scale, an area scale, and finally a creek of river scale.

    • Dean-
      Forrest and his family drove through CO on the way from Temple TX up to the Yellowstone area, and back, every summer as a kid. After moving to Santa Fe he would have driven through CO as well when driving between SF and West Yellowstone. Additionally, there were many destinations in CO that Forrest aimed toward in his collecting days. It would be very difficult for Forrest to have missed CO in 80 years of exploring the mountain west.
      He is quite familiar with Ouray. He had no issue pinpointing the location of where specific photos that were taken by me in the area along the Uncompahgre River from Ouray clear to Ridgeway.

    • M-jon-
      He was a trustee at Cody for many years, until quite recently when he gave it up. However he is still on the McCracken Research Library Advisory Board. He is an “Emeritus” board member.

  57. Wolf–I’ve only been here two weeks. I didn’t mean to “lift” the idea about Roy Brown. Sorry about that— I didn’t get the idea from ur article—it just made sense to me. And then “no place for the meek” referring to America (home of the brave) seemed to fall right in line.

    I guess there are very few new ideas out there. Lol. Nice article.

  58. Brown likely refers to Malcolm Brown of Taos, NM. If you google his name you will find tantalizing connections between Forrest Fenn, Malcolm and Rachel Brown as well as their daughter who worked for Fenn in the 1980’s If you find the loot based on my tips I will appreciate it is you share some of it. I have more possible areas that may connect another solve. Thanks

    • That is not what HOB stands for….You had an interesting take the other night and I meant to get back to you sooner….You left out one element…you figure that out and you will have a two for one…WWWH and HOB….

      • Thanks for the note. Not sure what I left out. I thought of two possible WWWH locals, one of which is definitely below the HOB. I’m thinking of areas near some rapids in the Rio Grande where the Lower Canyon (canyon down) intersects the river. The reason for my HOB location is the newspaper article referring to Brown’s home as resembling a ship-hence the “put in” reference. But I’m stuck in a chair in Michigan and let my fingers do the walking.

        • This is a teaching moment for FF..the memoirs are about him…he’s going to his final resting spot with a poem? He is going to show you what he knows or has learned..your definition was missing one body of water which has been taken for granted because it is so large! Check that out…find your HOB and you are in the area…I wont even charge you…then go back and read TOTC again and it will start to sink in as the man said…

          • Well, I’ve been looking at possible lake locations in the area and do not seem to be getting anywhere. If my HOB is wrong, then I’m back to square one. I’ve got the book and need to recalculate. I think it’s not going to be that far from his location, though. Nor would it be in a dangerous area. Maybe a drone would help

      • I have to disagree. “Brown” is so common that you can find a brown to fit almost any spot you settle on as the location. It’s like “home of Jones”. Just my opinion of course.

      • I agree with you, Joe. “Brown” is in the eye of the beholder, and hundreds can be made to work. Since there are so many historical people with that surname, it seems doubtful that Fenn’s Brown refers to any of them. After all, do you think any of the Browns that people have named will be household names in a century or more? One could argue that none of them are household names even today.

        Also, Fenn has said that the answers to the poem’s clues are to be found on maps, so that would be a strike against Molly Brown and most of the other Browns that I’ve seen discussed on this blog. I think it’s going to turn out to be something more clever and lasting than that.

        • I’ve said this before, but it applies equally here. I think that one of the genius aspects of this poem is that understanding each piece depends on a proper understanding of the piece before it. HOB is no different. Until you understand the lines before it, you cannot have confidence in your interpretation of HOB. As you say, zaph, there are far too many options to choose from.

          The clues are consecutive, but ambiguous if viewed out of context. Fenn wanted someone to solve his poem – completely. That’s why it doesn’t work to start in the middle.

  59. With the many strong allusions to trophy fishing and boating in the poem I think (IMO) that the idea that HOB relates to large Brown trophy trout habitat is the most probable. Forrest and his father were both professional fishing guides in the west. If the water flows into the canyon then TC is in there…if the water flows out of the canyon then the TC is outside the specific canyon you began in.

    Look for “blue ribbon” and “brown trout” and “warm waters” in Google and THE NAME OF THE STATE you are searching in.

  60. in my solve WWWH is where Brown trout are huge just upstream and it is also related to a nearby warm spring which used to be known by more people but now only a few realize there is a spring nearby. It is possible that even professional fishing guides don’t know why the warm water trophy zone is caused by this. Some say that the real reason they changed the name of this area years ago was to prevent this tiny spring from being damaged.

  61. I also cannot think of The Boy Scouts without first thinking of Forrest Fenn. (What an outstanding Scout/Guide he would be!)

    At the Philmont Scout Ranch, a gentleman by the name of William Monroe “Buster” Brown has a building dedicated in his honor. I would have to place him up there on the list of HOB.

    *Note that David Rumsfeld, Ronald Regan and Steve Fosset (just to name a few of Forrest’s favorite people, are distinguished Award Members at Philmont.

    Following is some information about W, Monroe /B.Brown:



    • SL, I agree Philmont is a very special place. Do not pass up a visit if in the area. I stayed in Cimarron at the St. James hotel and lived to tell the tale, being the only occupant that evening, the ghosts were accomodating considerating it was my birthday. I have many curious memories from there.:)

    • Hey SL
      It’s a very interesting place to visit but it is private property and they have cameras everywhere their. I seen the security building not far from the entry and it must has 20 or more flat screen TV’s with 4 pics on each one. While there I asked for permission to go in the back country and they flatly turn my wife and me down. Their words where” we have enough cameras to see who we have out there and if your not supposed to be there they will dispatch security to bring you back to be jailed for trespassing.” Oh yea! very important thing my wife just reminded me, if your vehicle is found on their property they have and will confiscate your car and go to court to receive title for trespass.
      I thought about it but my lovely wife said if I found it and didn’t get caught, (somehow) that she will bring the chest to the main office at Philmont or to the police. So I’m off to a different place.
      Be careful as I know for sure, that the cameras will be watching.
      Be safe, have bail money on hand and have fun
      Good Luck

        • Bet FF hiked all over that area and probably got busted a couple times, and either paid the fine with a smile or called on his ‘connected friends’ for a favor. The rich and celebrities are always forgiven when they break the rules, That may be an answer, but its no secret.

          Philmont store sells maps of their territory. I think that ‘Show Her’ story in the Preface is relevant to this topic.

        • Would Yurraca Canyon be on the outer edge? It’s one mile West of the Casa Del Gavilan Inn; which ‘is’ is on Philmont Property.

          Jack & Gertrude Nairn’s remains are at ‘Lovers Leap’ near a rock formation at Yurraca Canyon.

          A beautiful story. Might want to look that one up?

          My son has visited the Ranch. Mom enjoys hearing and reading about all TTOTC adventures!


          • IMO…
            I found that bit of history very interesting. My grand father was born (as I recall) and raised in Cimarron. He was born in 1919 and I’m certain that he would have known of the Nairns. As a child, my grand father would have been one to be dealing in farm animals and the like. He would pack a couple of chickens and potatoes for a ride to Taos with his father on horseback. His stories were always facinating, as was the story of the Nairns. Thank you, SL, for sharing.

          • Do the following letters mean anything ? I 0 I 0 A S I R S.
            If you look carefully at FF’s book tftw, these letters show up in that order marked by red bold letters are the beginning of certain chapters. Last three spell IRS…1010 could be ten-ten or one-O, one-O. Thoughts? I don’t see anything I can connect but the red colored letters got me thinking….

          • You may be right. I didn’t double check but found the selection a bit out of the ordinary….

      • Hey SL
        yea me again. I did forget to tell you that I asked Dal about Philmont and he is the one that warned me also about being in Philmont. he said he hasn’t been there because of it being private property but he had heard that others were caught and taken to the office. He said they told them that they didn’t know that they where on their property and accidentally walked on to it and lost..I have no idea if anything came about it.When I asked Dal he said he wouldn’t do that. lolololol
        I’m guessing it’s been searched out by the locals and are not telling anyone because that means they trespassed.
        be safe & good luck

  62. I was thinking about “home of brown” today. I’m a newbie here so not very wise about a lot of the search. Just curious though—does the home of brown have to be in the Rocky Mountains?

    I know Canada has been mentioned, and brown trout, etc. as candidates, but I was wondering why it couldn’t really be anywhere? Seattle Washington, or Las Vegas Nevada, or Springfield Missouri, or even Los Angeles California? Is there a reason everyone places it close to their “spot”?

    You’re all much wiser than me so I thought I’d ask a foolish question.

    • Joe;

      The reason most people look in the Rockies, I suspect is as follows: Once you settle on a wwwh spot, which Forrest has said that there are many, and most north of Santa Fe – MOST people place their wwwh in the Rockies. The next line, “And take it in the canyon down, Not too far, but too far to walk…” This tells most searchers that from wwwh, it is a fairly short distance to where you need to “Put IN” – Below the hoB. I have seen estimates of 20 miles or less from a lot of posters. So – Find a wwwh place in the Rockies, go down canyon probably less than 20 miles, and you will find a place to “Put In” below the hoB – ALL in the ROCKIES.

      I believe that that is why MOST would think that hoB WAS in the Rockies. Does this make sense?


    • Hey Joe,
      The HOB has been associated with the TC since Forrest said in a statement ” if I tell where or what the HOB is you could go straight to the treasure chest”. That’s been a while ago but for that reason only (IMO) we have all put the HOB close to the T.C.and it says in the poem” If you’ve been wise and found the blaze, Look quickly down, your quest to cease,. Which differently tells you that the blaze and the T.C. are together.

      Best of luck in future searches,
      Timothy all IMHO

    • Hey Joe
      It’s me again. One thing I have to say is read the definition of Put In. It has multiple meanings. Don’t get caught up with only one way of doing that. I myself look at it as to STOP at that location.It’s a naval way to put-in or dock the ship. Look at everything with open eyes. We all try to help but then sometimes it gets into our solve and that we can not put out there until we try it…
      Good luck & welcome to the group

      • Timothy, stopping below the HOB is the only way to go. It has become one of my favorite places to be. Though I have not been there this year, I plan to be there soon enough. All said IMO of course.

  63. Holy cow! I think I’ve been looking in the wrong place. Thanks again JDA. I need to look at the poem differently. Appreciate it.

  64. Double checked the letters and JDA & Jake. The sequence is 10110ASIRS……now it makes perfect sense….as Broderick Crawford would say, “10-4′! Actually, it still make no sense so far…but it is interesting.

  65. 10110ASIRS—it is taken from hieroglyphics, and translated into English. It is actually the call of a child to Osiris, a god of the Egyptians. It means (rough translation): “help me, I want my Mummy”.

    • I want my mummy… Sounds like a Dr. Who episode I have seen. The one speaks,f the words was a little boy wearing a gas mask. The episode was prior to the Doctor having the paternoster gang. Either way you look at it, you’re funny Joe Sparrow. FYI newbies, I have a Dr. Who connection from a few months back. Dr. Who transcends many generations as does the history connected to The Thrill Of The Chase… IMO.

      • Slurbs,

        I had no idea you also were a Who-ite! In the episode you’re referring to wasn’t Chris Eccleston the Dr. and he rejoiced at the end of the episode with “Everyone lives!”

        Oh, yeah, ummm…back on topic – what if “Home of Brown” simply refers to any lodging which might be occupied by a Mr./Ms. Brown, or Mr. Smith, etc.? The capitalized proper name use was just to identify that it was a person….?

        ~ Wisconsin Mike

        • Whovian, please. Yes your question given without a question mark. Brown can also be capitalized due to a nickname. Due to syrup, one could call you Syrup. Like naming a ship Sea Monster (oops, I don’t believe that falls into the category of nicknames).

        • Ok, let’s concentrate on the HOB part. Class is in session as Tom Leykis would say. Now let’s say that we know of one HOB at a certain elevation (here’s where you want to listen close AJ). So look below. You know what Brown did for a living and you know to be aware of bears. Now, where should you look? Can a bear cave look like a mine? I my solve for instance, I have that scenario. I am below the HOB and find another HOB. The second slash third HOB is a mine which is where Brown was at home in (not actually the mine, but the mine as a concept) as well as the home of a bear with the nickname Brown. Look in the mirror and ask yourself a few questions. This is my take on HOB. That is why I say that I enjoy putting in below the HOB. It’s a lot of thinking to take in, maybe you should sleep on it and give me some feed back after some pondering.

          • Slurbs,

            Brown upon Brown upon Brown, eh? Why does it sound like I’m talking in circles? (LOL!)

            IMHO, that strategy certainly does go along with many here who believe the poem has many levels and winds you down to an exact location for Indulgence.

            May I offer another way to view this clue – do not remove the first part of the sentence ~ now how does that change your interpretation?

            ~ Wisconsin (“syrup”) Mike

  66. I tarried awhile at Flywater — teased by caddis hatch, pillowed down and Peggy waits. Then married my results to the poem like so:

    To talk like a pirate might be: ‘I’m gonna go down and get me a quickiy”. In the days of sailing ships, the barrels of fresh water filled at springs soon became lively as micro-organisms in it hatched. The drinking water became known as quickly water. (learned that on a tour of USS Constitution in Boston Harbor… not in the dictionary)

    Down is treasured pillow stuffing, it is not common feathers or quills. it’s the very light fluff of baby chicks or the under-wingpit fluff of grown birds, mainly geese. Anser is a goose genus (like ’answer’ but missing the omega which may have been placed elsewhere).

    A caddis hatch over a stream can look like a lively cloud of fluff, a downy pillow fight. A little punctuation emphasis might help the reading … Look! quickly down! We’ll surely get some potatoes tonight.

    According to FLYWATER (the book, not the chapter in TTOTC) a Brown Drake hatch presents a rare and spectacular sight. It’s hatch emerges at dusk and a small flashlight is a handy tool for night fisherman who apparently spend a lot of time untying knots. You could die waiting for the light to change.

    BD hatch sites are distinguished to the knowing eye, by sandy river bottoms, not rocky ones. The Brown Drake builds it’s home on sand.

    And Peggy waits in New Mexico.

    Subtle enough? The armchair rests.

  67. No one uses this dry creek, so I’ll squirrel away another nut here….

    Five years of leafing this book and recently something broke soil … to my surprise. I’ve founded many castles on sand in my armchair jorrneys, but this one I think is bedrock for stanza one.

    Follow if you can, I won’t say more… The linguistic root of ‘indecision’ is cut, sever, divide. The root of ‘flexible’ is bend, twist, fold. i was sure I had to cut across a bend until a colloquialism suggested I flip a coin. And lo! a split meandered down the middle of a coin pile to underscore it!

    Then Burns at 100 & Sloan at almost 80 accounted that age and health occupy but one body, but it can differ on new and old maps, and in the end, it was Captain Kidd’s call … heads or tails?

    The two paragraphs bracketing the poem are densely packed … I wrung them out of so it’s a little wet. Now I’ve got to Begin again. Happy wintering 2016 all.

Leave a comment here...