Where Warm Waters Halt…


This is for a discussion about Where Warm Waters Halt. We’ve all got ideas that didn’t work out or we are willing to share…I think we can give folks just starting out some ideas for the kinds of places that might just be the place Where Warm Waters Halt…or not!

Let the discussion begin…


549 thoughts on “Where Warm Waters Halt…

        • Oh boy, is “mensan” fennsan what I think it is? Are you soooooo smart that you’re in MENSA?

          If so, glad you’re posting. Give us all your smartest ideas Please:-) I need all the help I can get.

          • As I said above, I have been a member of MENSA for a long time. That being said, I have not found the chest yet.

          • Hi Anna: the selectivity for Mensa is 1 in 50 (top 2%). So given that there are an estimated 65,000 people searching for the treasure, 1300 of them (give or take) would be smart enough to be accepted by Mensa.

          • 1300 of them, huh? No wonder we’ve seen so many come…..and go!

            My bet is on the three percenters! 🙂

          • That’s probably a good bet, Locolobo. Fenn has said that he intended his poem to be solvable by pretty much anyone. In a way that could put 2%-ers at a distinct disadvantage because their cleverness can manufacture forests of possible solutions that would never occur to the “average” Jane or Joe. In other words, thousands of rabbit holes that end up consuming most of their time.

          • Well I know I’m smart enough to be accepted by MENSA but I haven’t applied. I have had formal IQ tests though.

          • Anna. I found a map of the newer clovis point sites spanning the entire USA. It seemed that they were arrayed in three parallel lines; the western most line starting near the Bering Strait and running on the Eastern slope of the Rocky Mountains. Might these sites have something to do with deep fissures which cause hot springs and good hunting and fishing for ancient inhabitants (human and animal). Also look for fertile valleys in parallel lines arrayed North to South. If you search for mensan on the home page (or using the google SITE command) you may find all my past posts on this blog. Their are other high IQ groups which are more selective. The tests are derived by committees. Most people here seem genuinely trying to help others succeed.

        • I was once told by a very clever person, that I possessed an I.Q that matched my shoe size.

          I felt quite proud ..given that my feet are rather large.

          • My feet are rather large also. Although not that long (size 10), they are very wide, 6E. A pain when buying shoes.

            Good luck in your searching,

            Windy City

          • looking on the brightside though, at least your 6Es would be advantageous in a soft, sandy desert without a camel, while searching for treasure.

            ‘swings and roundabouts’ maybe?

            happy hunting too WC.

  1. May I open the discussion with this thought?… FF said (at some point) that to figure out this poem …show it to a kid [child]. What would a child say to the question, “where do warm waters halt?” Discuss….

    • LabRat,

      Do you recall exactly what Forrest said? Was it “a child” or “a kid”. I ask because there has been some discussion about a link between Forrest saying he played pirate when he was a child and Captain Kidd, the pirate. Further, could there be some connection to “warm waters” that Cap’t Kidd sailed in?…

      ~ Wisconsin Mike

      • Inner child… go younger… warm waters… must be the Fountain of Youth. May I suggest the Ponce de Leon hot springs near Taos?

        • Good answer, Jeremy, but not the one I am thinking. I have no children (an uncertain number of unborn souls breathe a sigh of relief that I was never their Papa…lol), but my ‘inner child’ says WWH in the bathtub. Think…bathtub –> basin (a common geographic feature).

          • I wondered about that for a while too. The problem is there needs to be only one WWWH. There are many WWWH north of Sante Fe, but only one that can be clearly identified on a map- distinctive from the others. So, I don’t think basin is the answer. I also think lots of people are wasting a lot of time looking at endless waterfalls, trout waters, etc in the search for the one. My WWWH is distrinctive enough on the map that I don’t have to look at all the WWWH north of Sante Fe. I only need this one. My suggestion is to listen to Fenn’s advice. “you just need to think”. Figure it out with your brain before you look for it on the map. Once I did that, it took me less than two minutes to identify this spot on the map even though I previously had not been aware it existed.

        • Fountain of youth would require information not in the poem. It requires you to know that Fenn said to show it to a chld. That isn’t in the poem and everything you need is in the poem.

    • “I could change the water temperature around my body just by moving a foot or so. Sometimes I stayed in that place for two hours or more and when I decided it was time to leave I’d back a couple of feet downstream where the water was cold.”


      • Picassobull- If only you knew where warm waters halt. You would be astonished at the real meaning behind this quote! I know there are folks looking at places in streams where warm water meets cooler water. Their efforts would be more productive if they would first determine WWWH. They don’t understand.

        • you keep going on about this… any hints as to your understanding? I think everyone in the search would be happier if they could be so confident in what WWWH means. That’s the 1st main question everyone is trying to solve, so I’m sure there’s no lack of brain power being expended over this issue. What makes your idea so novel?

      • picassobull – People fly fish all up and down the Firehole River,…where Forrest was bathing (maybe not right at Ojo Caliente),…just in case the WWWH relates to water temps for fly fishing:


        Did you know it was named for this “burnt hole” area,…mentioned in Osborne Russell’s journal,…and not for the volcanic features?:


        “29th Took up the stream a South course about 10 mls. then left it to the left hand and proceeded about 4 mls South thro. a low pass and fell on to a branch of the Madison fork of the Missouri running south this we followed down about six miles further and encamped where we staid next day This pass is formed by the minor ranges of hills or spurs on the two high ranges of mountains on either side of us which approach towards each other and terminate in a low defile completely covered with pines except along the stream where small praries may be found thickly clothed with grass forming beautiful encampment 31st Travelled SW down the stream about 10 Mls. when we came to the “burnt hole” a prarie Valley about 80 mls in circumference surrounded by low spurs of pine covered mountains which are the sources of great number of streams which by uniting in this valley form the Madison fork.”

        That “praire valley” is where Hegben Lake is now…..

        • E*, I have been reading yours and Melanies post with great interest. I have studied that area extensively as well and had a solve to the top of Horse butte, but never checked it out. On top of horse butte is a lookout, old. and you can look quickly down, towards( duck creek). Also the road by the lookout on google earth looks like a fern head or fiddleshead. I know, far fetched so I never checked it out. Horse was my drawing heavy loads and butte was created by high water.

          Anyhow I learned some things with my research that you have mentioned above as well as, look at grayling arm peninsula. There is another boot or leg. It could the trunk of a human with two legs.

          Or I also thought of the isle of man. Look at their flag. Also the famous T.E. Brown is from the isle of Mann.

          Also you are correct. The Burnt hole is hebgen lake area and I believe that is why Forrest referenced it in the book. Burnt umber is literally “Brown”.
          But it can also be seen as a hole or Kettle, like the Black kettle he referenced in TFTW preface as the WWH. He says a homemade lye. Lye literally means warm bath. They made the soap in a black kettle. Is that the Burnt HOLE, like an old depression of a glacier that you could identify from a map of the Rockies?

          That is a very intriguing area. I hope this info. may help in some way

          • DPT – Great! I used Horse Butte as my proposed place that I could “look quickly down” from,…to see the “in the wood” place to find the bronze chest (because Captain Kidd’s treasure was found in Bostwick’s Forest):

            “in a swampy part of a heavily wooded area, Bostwick’s forest.”

            I think he just tied the boat up to that stump on Hebgen Lake in the photo.

            The Burnt Hole was named for a really big fire that happened in that valley,…before Osborne Russell’s time.

            Aubrey Haines’s paper book has great footnotes in the back and corresponding maps throughout,…I enjoyed triyng to find all those Blackfeet attacks in the surrounding Madison River area.

          • Hi DPT, E* & Anna.
            Thank you much for your posts. Little Gidding (like Little India) has been percolating in the attic of my mind, too. Maybe we are thinking along the same lines?

            Horse Butte has been a side lurker in many of my solves. So many possibilities, yet never a strong enough tie-in…..just circumstantial/supportive evidence, if you will, but for reasons I’m not ready to explain. But, it does keep cropping up. Huh.

            “Hole” is a term used to describe a geologic depression where water seemingly “sinks”. i.e., “Jackson Hole” is not the name of the town/airport/whatever. It’s the name of the distinctive feature on the landscape. Russell describes many such holes, as you already know. How this may apply to Hebgen’s earlier incarnation and how it’s current state plays into the poem continue to hold my interest.

            I need to get away from my “texting machine” and “just think”. HA!

          • melanie – It took a while to find this link about the “Burnt Hole” and the naming of the Firehole River:


            Origin Of Name: River, Yellowstone National Park, Wyo., … flowing north, uniting with the Gibbon River to form the Madison River. Name dates back to 1830; known to Bonneville and his men. (Decisions, 1930) Firehole River is a name the origin of which has heretofore apparently been misunderstood. Dates from as far back as 1830, when the valley was called by the trappers “Burnt Hole,” from a great forest fire which had recently swept over it, and the traces of which are distinctly visible at the present day. The record on this point is definite and conclusive

          • Hi E*. Thank you very much for the links you’ve dug up! Very interesting history of the Fire Hole’s name. Nice to see that pic of what lay beyond the burn at Axolotl, too.

    • I’m not sure he was specifically talking about WWWH when showing it to a kid, but my understanding is that if you think you know WWWH and it adds up with the other clues the path you want to follow then maybe you’ve found it.

  2. I think the “halt” or stop could be where a river or creek appear to end as they meet a sandy area and settle into the water table beneath the surface.

  3. Is it that warm waters stop moving, stop being warm, or the warm waters themselves halt something else, or none of the above? Therein lies the question.

    • May be it is none of the above. I can see WWWH in the poem itself. But I don’t interpret things like everyone else either. But I think I have clues 1 & 2 figured out. It tells me where to go find clue 3. Maybe?

      • Or could it be that no actual warmth is involved? A number of water bodies have proper names that could tie-in to warmth.

        • zaphod73491 – When I first started the chase I looked at sources of water in all 4 states in play but there are just too many to narrow it down to find the right one. Forrest even told us to stay home and play Canasta if you can’t find the starting point or you will just have a nice vacation. I found a keyword that led me to a map that opened up a new world for me. I seriously could not believe what was staring back at me. Forrest told us exactly what WWWH is but not where it is. No water involved in WWWH even though it sounds odd. If you use imagination you do have water.

          • Dang, Where was I when this conversation was going on in July?

            Hear me all,

            I have a few thoughts of WWWH not being um, conventional waters or maybe normal in definition, might be a better way of saying it… care to share a bit more in your thoughts?

          • Not to be a “conventionalist”, but my wwwh has both water (the liquid type) and it is “warm” – or so one is lead to believe. JDA

          • JDA – I did not plan for water not to be a part of the solve but the course I followed turned out that way. It is unconventional. Seems like a poet we know is also unconventional in his way of thinking and doing things throughout his life.

        • Hi Hear me all: my favorite approach of the last month provides a nice clue in the first stanza that severely restricts the starting location, without identifying a precise spot. When used in conjunction with WWWH, I’ve only found a handful of possibilities, none of which is a gobsmacker. So I’m trying to be more right-brained about considering alternative interpretations of WWWH.

          • zaphod73491 – If you want to discuss in private, my e-mail is jdoggettatsctelcom.net

          • Zaphod, If you have the same “I” that I do, then you are on the path to finding WWWH. Look at the “big picture”.

          • Puzzled — there is a chance they are the same, but even if so it doesn’t seem helpful. Let me ask you this: prior to your WWWH epiphany, you had a pair of candidate solutions in Wyoming and another pair in Colorado that your were pursuing. Without revealing your current target area, was your revelation such that you’ve abandoned your prior four spots?

          • zaphod- Yes, I have abanonded my previous search areas. And, I was sad to do it because I had become very fond of those locations and was anxious to head out in a couple of weeks to search. I will give you two of the areas that I had most carefully worked solutions for, but which I have now abandoned because I believe I have the correct WWWH now.

            Abandoned Solve #1- Uncompahgre Plateau.
            I love this place and I will visit here sometime! It is unique in the fact that on this Plateau are two canyons carved by rivers moving in opposite directions, and an non existant divide between them. One river runs west and the other runs east and it is the only place in the entire world where two rivers start in almost the same location and run in different directions. It is called the Unaweep Canyon. Una means one, as in “I have gone alone”. Weep could be interpreted as “warm waters” (tears). One reason I was fond of the Uncompahgre Plateau is the way it was named. There is some difference of opininion on the meaning of Uncompahgre. It is a Ute word. Some interpret it to mean “place where water makes rocks red”, and others interpret it as “warm water springs”. Either way, you can interpret it as “WWH” You also could say that the Uncompahgre indians “halt” there. It is one of the several places this tribe of indians “halted” as they migrated year round to have availability of meat, water, and plants. On the Uncompahgre Plateau is what they call the Unaweep/Tabegache Byway. The word Tabegache means “place where snow melts first”, which I found to be interesting due to the fact that FF keeps telling us to wait until the snow melts to search. You can read more about this fascinating place if you just google it.

            Abandoned Solve #2- Great Divide Basin
            I had developed this solve almost as far as the Uncompahgre Pleateau solve. The Great Divide Basin is a basin carved at the Continental Divide. It is an endorphic basin. All the water that enters this basin in the form of rain, snow or otherwise, cannot leave the basin except by evaporation because the basin is closed. There are some quite fascinating places in the Great Divide Basin. You can google this place as well.

            I had develped both of these solves almost to completion, or so I thought.
            But, when I put away the map and really thought about WWWH, I came up with what I believe is the correct answer. It is so simple a child could answer it. It is so simple that I can’t believe I didn’t get it sooner. It fits the hints given in the book TTOTC, but in a creative indirect way that my other solves didn’t have. It definately takes some imagination and yet, it is also logical. It fits every comment that FF has made. The poem itself confirms that I have the right answer. (all in my own opinion of course)

            The difference in my solution of WWWH is that my previous ideas of WWWH relied upon knowing some of the history of the area and understanding Native American words. My current solution to WWWH does not rely on history of the area. It didn’t even rely upon the map or the dictionary or thesaurus. I thought about it and came up with the answer and then spent about two minutes finding the previously unknown location on the map. It is so simple a child could answer, and the poem itself confirms I am correct. (this is my opinion of course)

            I’ve been rambling so long that I have now forgotten what you asked me in the first place zaphod. Hopefully I answered your question.

          • Hi Puzzled: when I saw Uncompahgre, I was expecting River (and Ouray) to follow, and the world-class ice climbing that takes place there (another interpretation of WWWH). I also like the vague similarity between Uncompahgre and “comprehensive” (knowledge of geography). The Ouray area is still on my “maybe” list — after all, the road that takes you there is the “Million Dollar Highway”.

            The Great Divide Basin clearly takes up a significant fraction of the Wyoming search area (and the NW corner of Colorado), but for the most part I don’t think the area is very “pretty”. When Forrest has Montana, Yellowstone, the Tetons and the Colorado Rockies to choose from, its hard to imagine the GDB being on his short list.

            I felt the same way about Hwy 89 heading north out of Mammoth Hot Springs following the Gardner River (preceded by “Lava” Creek being the WWWH where it empties into the Gardner). I though Gardner Canyon would make a great “canyon down”, but when I was there in person I nixed it. Aside from the river, it’s practically a desert, with few trees.

          • Zap,
            You heading to Montana in Sept. or Oct.?
            If so & your interested, I would like to share my solve with you maybe you can take a peek.

          • I would agree that the TC would not be in the Great Divide Basin. However, it could still be WWWH depending on how far TFTW is. There are areas near the GCD that cause me to leave it on my list as a possible WWWH.

          • Zaphod, I have a completely different solve which involves the town of Ouray. There are some interesting connections to words in the poem. I have now read several books on Chief Ouray and all that he accomplished. This area is very interesting.

          • Windy City et al.:

            in my just-for-fun-solve called:

            The “A River Runs Through It” Gallatin River Solve

            I believe Gallatin Lake could be WWWH,…because it is the SOURCE of the VERY COLD (colder than the Madison or Yellowstone) Gallatin River,…at 8825ft,…and that lake is located outside the Yellowstone Caldera Boundary:

            Begin (The Gallatin River) where warm waters halt


            “Hear me all and listen good” 😉


            And Forrest and his friend Joe,…as well as his wofe, Peggy,…have fished there (per his books).

          • E*, you have checked out a lot of the areas I have.
            But I like WWH next to gallatin lake at crowfoot ridge.
            A crowsfoot is the 3 lines on a face next to the eye. They collect tears and as you get tired and weak they show more. Ok , old age marks-haha.
            A crowsfoot is also a wrench that the guy in the picture of page 50-51 is holding. He is wearing an apron and the wrench has an F on the one side.
            Crowfoot was also a native American Chief. Had to do with the 7th treaty.

            This is a WWH and then you can take it down and put it in the grayling creek. Grayling is also a butterly known as the “Brown grayling” the butterfly is known as the master of disguise because of its dot on the wings that looks like an eye. Grayling can also mean cold as in Arctic grayling. So grayling could be your HOB and Crowfoot ridge your WWH.

            Hope this helps.

          • Windy City – OK,…if you don’t like my outside-the-Yellowstone-Caldera explanation,…maybe we can talk about the tree line in that photo,…and the 8825ft altitude of that lake,…and discuss the Alpine Climate up there,…for the WWWH:


            And no,…I don’t think John Good, the photographer,…made a “good map”,…like Forrest said we might need for The Chase.

          • John Good did write a book on the art of Cartography.

            Your theory for the Lake may be valid If the conditions are too cold for warm water. However, I would ask: how location fits into the rest of the clues? There are many places in the RM that are too cold for warm water, so what is it separates this lake from the others?

          • DPT – Did you know that the Mourning Cloak butterfly is the Montana State butterfly (or “flutterby” maybe?):


            Thanks for all that great info.! I am so glad there are people on this blog who like to do research and make connections as much as I do! I wish everyone would share. But a lot are just going for the gold, I guess.

            Did you know Dal went to Grayling Creek and posted here about it? There are two parts (but I can’t post 3 links!):


          • Yes, I see your point. I looked back at when I googled Good and map making. My fat fingers caused a typo. My bad.

          • Hi Jake — up above you asked if I was heading to MT in Sept. or Oct. With what I have to go on right now, no. But if I have a breakthrough in the next couple months that provides an actionable destination, then I would make the journey.

          • Thanks Zap,
            I might have an actionable destination you may be interested in.
            You can click on my name which is my website & click on the contact button to contact me, it may be worth our quest if your interested….

        • E*, yes I did read that story about grayling creek some time ago.

          And I never forgot what Forrest said. Don’t let them find the treasure up grayling creek or canyon. That has always bugged me.
          Then Forrest says he doesn’t try to deceive searchers ( paraphrase).

          So if he isn’t trying to deceive or mislead how else can you interpret that saying other than the chest is up there somewhere?? He also calls that ” Gods country”

          What do you think E*???


          • DPT – I think he just wanted Dal and ff’s family folk to go up there and take pictures,…so he could see them. I think ff “treasures” his favorite fishing spots. I think Forrest fished up there a lot,…but I don’t know if he hid the bronze chest up there. Maybe he had an even better place in mind as his final resting place.

          • DPT – When you said “God’s Country”,…I remembered this post I did on another blog:

            Bob – And speaking of the art of fly fishing,…I like Ian Frazier’s “The Fish’s Eye” focused perpective:


            “As Deren himself puts it, when talking about what separates a regular fisher from what he calls an angler at heart, “It’s the call of the wild, the instinct of the hunt, it’s a throwback to the forest primeval. It’s the feeling of being in a state of grace in a magnificent outdoor cathedral… I could sit all day and watch a field mouse fifteen feet away, watch a bird in a tree huntin’ bugs… the romance of fishing isn’t all just fish.” In that quote, Deren captures something of what it means to be an outdoorsman, and gives quite a decent answer to the question what motivates a true fisherman.”

            What ff said:

            “My church is in the mountains and along the river bottoms where dreams and fantasies alike go to play.”

            My first email I sent to Forrest in March of 2013 was a version of this picture as my “I can’t get this out of my head – gut feeling” location for his bronze chest:


            That looks like my kind of “cathedral” entrance…and maybe ff’s too.

          • What a beautiful picture,all the lovely flowers,mts,trees,etc,did you take it your self
            I’d love to see things like that. Dal is so lucky.he gets to see gods beautiful treasures

          • virgina diane – We used to converse on Forrest’s blog, right? How are you??? Have you been out looking there in Colorado near your home?

            No,…I didn’t take the photo,…because I have an inexpensive flip phone,…and no camera. I found that one today on the copmuter.

          • Im still here,i tore my plantar faisitis,like peyton manning.the dr.told me i got a peyton manning,he said you know who peyton manning is don’t you.my husband and doc.was laughing. Boy that hurts.so i got a blow up boot on for 2 or 3 months .i walk and sleep with.i still have been trying to figure out this poem.i haven’t been out searching.everytime i think i get somewhere ,i don’t. I was wondering why mr. Forrest didn’t say. I have went alone in there with my treasure and hint of riches new and old.i would think chest and then hint of whats in the chest.i really wish i could figure it out and be able to go get it.good luck to you.

          • Hi DPT. I am fairly certain FF’s reference to “God’s Country” was to the Yellowstone area in general, not just the Grayling. I base this on hearing him use that phrase another time to describe the larger area. It caught my attention because “God’s Country” is exactly how my family refers to Door County, Wisconsin. Coincidentally, it sits squarely on the 45th parallel, just like Yellowstone.

          • Hi Virginia. Put Door County on your list of places to visit one day. The mighty Lake Michigan and it’s high bluffs always in view.You will NOT be disappointed.

          • virgina diane – I wish Forrest said that too! I am sorry you hurt your foot. I am sending you healing. 🙂

      • Yes, Iron Will, Jeremy P has suggested that one, and my former (but not yet retired) solve put me in that area of NM as well. I favor NM, but this ‘new’ line of thinking has placed me in another location/another state.

  4. as a kid growing up in wyoming we considered catfish warm water fish found usaly along the back side of dams and in abundance along the river at dave johson power plant
    down here in texas they are found every where there is water from stock ponds to rivers lakes streams ect

  5. IMO, the Warm Waters, when I first encountered the place Where it resides, may have Halted me for seconds scant. Being the nimble sea goer of past, I skipped along my merry way while I tossed aside the words “I can’t.” I believe that is how it went. I think I may have been a little late to the party. I remember a time I showed up way too early and I really don’t recall how I maaged then. Anyway, I , now, go prepared and the Warm Waters do not Halt me. What a relief that is! There was this one time I had gone on a search for the TC and I was breaking in the trail. Someone had already made a path for others but not for me. The nerve of that guy! Anyway, I was a bit too early and didn’t even get to WWWH! You talk about a tough time trying to get out of there! Sometimes it is good to keep a frog in your back pocket, let me tell you. Whew! Another time, yet, I was early. I was prepared otherwise, I would have been in over my head. I guess having that frog helped me out then too. I think he deserves a sticker like a kid gets a gold star in school. Well, to make a long story something or other…. A frog in your back pocket may be your lucky charm!
    Oops, I meant to say SUBSCRIBE.

    • @Slurbs, nice. Like your style. Where do you live? Something tells me maybe NM?

      If you need a search partner, holler!

  6. Windy City, wildbirder, specialklr, eaglesbound, and others who are compelled to do so, I’d like to request that instead of just saying Subscribe, or any other shortened version thereof, give an actual comment. At least be original like Mark J up there with his Submarine comment. You can always look at any of Dal’s active chapters on this site without subscribing. I know some of you post comments often so why not continue with something others can absorb? So you for some reason have a grudge against Warm Waters Halting you? Maybe you can talk about how Warm Waters have affected your life. IMO, though you can avoid beginning Where Warm Waters Halt, why would you? IMO, it would only be to your detriment. Don’t be a Couch Potato of the cyber world. IMO, if you can’t put in the slightest effort here, how are you ever going to find Indulgence? These are the days of our lives, let’s not waste others time with having them read one word Subcribing. IMO, f’s Warm Waters is worth the checking out.

    • I really don’t see what difference it makes. When I have I something to contribute, I do that along with subscribing. When I don’t, I don’t see the purpose in making up hogwash in lieu of saying sub or subscribe. I don’t have a problem with using submarine, but I don’t see how it has value added to the post or any readers of the post either.

      As a sidebar, I have a reason for subscribing and reading the majority of the posts in my email account. I have had 3 eye surgeries and I am color deficient. The colors in my email account are easier on my eyes than the reverse colors on this blog. That being said, I appreciate Dal’s and Goofy’s efforts put forth running this board, it is not their fault that my eyes are the way they are.

      Semper Fi, Dal

      Slurbs: Kudos for your efforts in searching for Randy. You and the other searchers are first class upright citizens.


      Windy City

    • I am sorry that just subbing isn’t ok anymore. As for “cute” unnecessary comments I have been nearly NUKED for not being on point. I have sub twice and I am STILL in moderation just for subbing. I am also not receiving updates from blog. I don’t feel it’s fair to tell people to post stuff unless they have something useful to contribute lest they risk being NUKED for being too chatty. I have limited time to read and post etc. it is easy to miss a recent post especially if you cannot get on blog for a few days. I personally took a while off to stop being repetitive myself. I have posted what WWWH is IMHO. WWWH is in the New Mexico fishing regs because it is the only item we can find that is a historic document. It is not an opinion and it is concrete. I feel is silly to keep post a comment or an idea that is in the record. i don’t want to offend anyone but please don’t scold me for trying to follow the rules.

  7. Good Morning All;

    As I have stated a time or two, I feel that wwwh is when a smaller body of water converges with a larger body of water, that is Where Warm Waters Halt. I know, there are many in the RM’s, and most are north of Santa Fe.

    Good luck to all searchers and TRY to STAY SAFE


  8. The following is my opinion and opinion only. WWWH is of no consequence without what comes before it. Every one who does not understand this will absolutely fail at solving the poem. We just do not understand Mr.Fenn about changing our thought process. The poem is like a river,and most of us are swimming against its current. We do not surrender to it because we”know better”. All clues were meant to be solved by everyone,and anyone, but we are just so stubborn and keep coming up with the same answers over, and over again.

    If the question about WWWH had been asked in that TV show “Kids say the darnest things” they would have solved it a long time ago. RC.

  9. Someone else posted this earlier, but….

    Begin it where warm waters halt (you from following it’s flow).

    Couldn’t we eliminate the hot springs that simply pool, and those that merge with streams? A hot spring that runs down a canyon for a ways might go through a narrow opening that halts (you).

    • Why eliminate those that merge with streams? Isn’t the spot where the warm spring waters merge with the stream a wwwh point? It is to me. Just a thought.

      Good luck in your solve – and TRY to STAY SAFE

  10. Hello all,

    I am a little late in the game, but just started working on the poem in the last few weeks. I have tried catching up with all the amazing ideas posted on this site, but wow, that is a LOT of content!

    Just 2 cents from a newbie’s perspective. I do not think “Where warm waters halt” is the entire clue unto itself. There is a logical way to divide this poem into 9 sections, and I have seen it mentioned on this site. Unless it is some sort of play on words (which is very possible), trying to literally find WWWH is like finding a needle in a stack of needles. I think that is why the author has said people are thinking too hard about WWWH. You can’t deduce anything from that one phrase, but must consider it in context with the rest of that clue. Based on previous experiences with Treasure Hunts, you would expect this first clue to put you in a general area. WWWH seems very specifically for a first clue when taken literally.

    Look forward to reading and sharing ideas here. I am an East Coaster. I have a trip to Arizona scheduled in October for a conference. If I get enough confidence in a solution to actually make it into the field, I would probably leave a few days early and make a detour into the state where I think it is.

  11. It occurs to me that warm waters halt near or at a point where warm springs meet the Rio Grande River. There are several places that looks promising on a map, but I am not in New Mexico.

    Another possibility is that warm waters halt where they are, if they are not moving.

    Still another idea is that a small waterfall might be involved as the chests are reportedly “wet” and “hidden”.

    • RM…IMO (due to my readings) the chest is not constantly wet, is generally protected from nature for hundreds of years and is not in a cave or structure or easily visible from flying overhead but may not be burried and should be readily visible to anyone who gets within a dozen feet of it.

  12. in my mind i would have to dissagree when warm spring water enters a coooler river it doesnt halt it cools down and continues to flow
    i dont believe in the traditional sense that wwwh’s is a physical place
    I think its a description of clue

    • I like the relative definition of WWWH posited in this article;
      It says WWWH is where waters are cold enough for brown trout by NM G&F state definition.
      In my solve this designated “blue ribbon” water is where warm waters and cold waters mix. I was aware of the controversy about the actual name for this place years before this search was penned. IMO WWWH is not in NM.

      • It’s not often discussed, but water becomes steam at 212 degrees which is what native Americans heat their sweat lodges to.

        • Interesting. While in NM for Fennboree we stayed with my wife’s sister for a week prior to Fennboree. She has a man in the area that is a handyman. He was working at the SIL’s home while we were there. He invited my wife to a sweat lodge. I understand that is an honor to a person who is not native American. This man is a member of the Isleta Nation.

      • mensan_fennsan – Thank you for posting that article! I couldn’t agree more with your comment:

        Another very popular interpretation is that his use of “warm waters” is a nod to the New Mexico State Game and Fish Department’s classification of all streams, lakes and ponds – except those designated as trout waters – as “warm waters.” Fenn is an avid fly fisherman, so the phrase “where warm waters halt” could point to a boundary between warmer gamefish waters and colder trout waters.

        Was your controversy about the name of the Firehole River? I posted a link about that yesterday, I think,…when we were discussing the “Burnt Hole” here on Dal’s blog from trapper days.

        How long have you been on The Chase,…and have you had BOG yet?

  13. Let’s use extreme terms to describe what happens. Let’s say that a stream coming from a HOT spring flows a short distance, the water is HOT. It meets a river or stream that is glacier fed. Its waters are COLD. Where they meet, the water becomes warm or tepid… it is no longer HOT. It has ceased to be HOT…It’s state of being HOT has halted. It is now warm or tepid. I have used extremes HOT/COLD to describe the point. In reality, the HOT stream may already be WARM and the COLD stream or river may already be COOL, but the waters merge, and the WARM state halts – it ceases to be because ITS waters are now cooler.

    Just my opinion.


    • I always thought that definition missed
      ff’s word precision… its more of a merge than a halt. I think the water halts and the warmth halts (whatever is meant by water and warm) when it hits a wall. But I don’t have the TC either.

  14. There is a movie named “Warm Springs”, about U.S. President Franklin D. Roosevelt’s struggle with polio, his discovery of the Warm Springs, Georgia, spa resort and his work to turn it into a center for the aid of polio victims. Has nothing to do with the Rockies, but IMO, Most of the info needed, will have nothing to do with the Rockies either..

  15. My inner child says…warm waters halt in the freezer box where ice cream hides out.

    My inner smart alleck says…warm waters halt at the fauXset. Oops, I meant faucet.

    My inner Dallas Cowboys fan says…draw the X and O and kick the pigskin..•••••H

    Baux cheque [ ]

  16. The poem says “warm”, so with the hot springs idea, IMO the hot water should be mixing with cold water first to make it warm. And then the halting.

    With regards to the “halt”, do the waters, halt first and then “unhalt” at some point, or they stay halted?

    • HOT waters that have flowed some distance from its source will be WARM, not hot. The WARM waters merge with the COOLER waters of a stream or river – Works for me


  17. Zaphod, I tried to reply on the previous page which is now closed so moving my reply here. Are you saying that you asked FF about “I”? You said your question left a loophole. Would you mind sharing a bit more on that? I was not aware that anyone had asked him about “I”. I do know your queston to me left a loophole.

    • Hi Puzzled: no, I’ve never asked FF a thing. I actually have no intention of contacting him unless it’s to tell him I have the chest. I think the poor guy is probably inundated with emails as it is. What I meant about my question leaving a loophole was that it left a loophole for *you* in answering: the kind that Fenn would exploit. When someone asks, “Is it A, B or C?” (thinking that those are the only possibilities), a logician might also accurately answer “Yes” or “No”.

      • Thanks for clarifying Zaphod. I am suspecting that you and I might have the same “I”. My “I” allows for two different interpretations of WWWH. Both interpretations can be found in the same place. I think both are necessary. I discovered the interpretation requiring a “tight focus” first but couldn’t put it on a map until I figured out the interpretation that needed a wider focus. Making slow but steady progress. Have you figured out WWWH yet?

        • Puzzled – I saw your response to this over on the Odds and Ends thread,…but I really think my post belongs over here for consideration:


          E* on July 11, 2016 at 11:14 am said:

          JD and zaphod – OK,…more on this post and that letter ‘Y’ formed by the confluence of the rivers at Madison Junction in YNP:


          I chose that spot as the WWWH for my main solve,…not because of the named rivers coming together (the Firehole and the Gibbon) being the “warm waters”,…as Dal did,…but because the boundary of the Yellowstone Caldera occurs right there,…which makes the waters outside that volcanically active boundary colder for ff’s trout fishing:


          And just to prove Dal’s and my proposed WWWHs,…how about putting ‘The Madison River’ in for every instance of “it” in the Poem,..especially here:

          Begin (The Madison River) where warm waters halt

          The Madison River DOES begin there,…at Madison Junction,…and where warm waters halt (vocanically AND by the two Firehole and Gibbon river appellations).


          So why (=’Y’ in Wy?) is (The Madison River) where I must go…
          I’ve done (The Madison River) tired and now I’m weak.

          Didn’t ff use that section of the river below Madison Junction in the preface of TFTW? He was wearing waders and had his dingy floating nearby (no fishing from boats in YNP) and attached to him, right? Something about 10 miles being TFTW,…especially wearing waders.

          I personally think that Forrest fished right there,…as sort of a last hurrah,…the morning he hid the bronze chest,…when he was 79 or 80. After that,…and the publication of The Chase and TTOTC book,…I think he knew he would be exposed going back there.

          And I STILL think he had NO problem making this hike after that,…from Noon onward (see my comments above that with zaphod):


        • zaphod and puzzled – Did you see this post by Dal over at Odds and Ends (which I think ALSO belongs here on the WWWH thread)?:


          What if the “I” refers to Ojo Caliente in this line?:

          “As I have gone alone in there”

          ‘Ojo’ means ‘Eye’ (aka “I”?)

          ‘Ojo Caliente’ = ‘Hot Eye’

          As ‘Eye’ have gone alone in there maybe?

          That would make that line the first clue AND would represent where Ojo Caliente as a potential WWWH WAS used in the Poem.

          Forest has certainly “gone alone in there”,…per that story in the TTOTC book. And I personally think he learned a thing or two in Spanish class.

          • decall – So glad to see you!!! Thanks for that link.

            Hey,…do I have your permission to post that great photo you took from the overlook on the “Tea Trail” with the comparison of the view from where Forrest is sitting on Lightning? I know you posted it on Mike’s blog,…but I think Melanie would enjoy seeing it. I know i did.

            How long did it take YOU to get from the Potamogeton Pond trailhead to Axolotyl Lake btw? And did you think that was strenuous hiking???

          • Heya E*. Thanks fer thinkin’ of me. Yes, decall I’d like to see it. Think I might have, but would like to confirm.

            The hike was not strenuous, just a slog and not very enjoyable. And, not where I would rest my bones (which wouldn’t last long given all the griz prints).

          • HELLO E*
            It’s so nice to see you posting again. I don’t frequent mikes blog any longer and I’ve missed you. Glad you aren’t banned here. Behave this time so I have a girlfriend, will you. Hope you’ve been well. Like a mama, I worry when one goes missing.

          • That E* is one sneaky, well read shadow girl… she will get you right to the good info if you are paying attention. She has no idea how close she is, so I’ll try to distract her with some shiny lures or something.

          • Hi E*: yes, saw the posts about Ojo Caliente and Dal’s reply today. I know Jake likes this spot, but I’m kinda in Dal’s camp. As for “As I have gone alone in there” and the lines that follow, my first clue is indeed within that stanza. And the “I” in my case is not an eye or an ojo or even part of my clue.

          • Ojo Caliente is an interesting place. I researched it extensively but do not believe it is WWWH. I would however love to visit there.

          • decall – You wrote:

            decall on July 11, 2016 at 7:09 pm said:

            That E* is one sneaky, well read shadow girl… she will get you right to the good info if you are paying attention. She has no idea how close she is, so I’ll try to distract her with some shiny lures or something.

            Look out for the OTHER Diggin Gypsy:


          • decall – For instance,…WHICH “Diggin Gypsy” did Forrest mean HERE? Since that shadow with that name on it was actually mine?:


            Marti Kreis, 45
            Blue Ridge, Georgia
            Kreis goes by the name “Diggin’ Gypsy” on Dal Nietzel’s blog and says that she’s the one Fenn bet on to find the treasure.

            I still have so much fun with that Shadow…..

          • Your pic was taken by Ralph Maughan
            I took that snapshot right next to it without even knowing there was a pic there already.
            I think I’m ready.

          • decall – From that link you shared about the Egyptian God Ra:

            “When Ra was in the underworld, he merged with Osiris, the god of the dead, and through it became the god of the dead as well.”

            In the area of my final main spot there are several of what I think are relevant blazes,…one of which looks like Forrest’s right thumb held out,…pointing left (like in that story about flying over Philadelphia). But I HAVE considered that it may be something “golden” instead,…because Forrest has done scrapbooks on his Egyptian collection:


            “Osiris is the mythological father of the god Horus, whose conception is described in the Osiris myth, a central myth in ancient Egyptian belief. The myth described Osiris as having been killed by his brother Set, who wanted Osiris’ throne. Isis joined the fragmented pieces of Osiris, but the only body part missing was the phallus. Isis fashioned a golden phallus, and briefly brought Osiris back to life by use of a spell that she learned from her father. This spell gave her time to become pregnant by Osiris before he again died. Isis later gave birth to Horus. As such, since Horus was born after Osiris’ resurrection, Horus became thought of as a representation of new beginnings and the vanquisher of the evil Set.”

            Did I mention my just-for-fun solve called:

            “Red Canyon is the Valley of the Kings!”

            Here’s the burial chamber there:


            And Pyramid Peak and Sphinx mountain can be seen flying around that general area from Forrest’s Piper plane. 🙂

  18. As stated many times herein this blog, no water involved. It’s a smokescreen and diversion that plays on the imagination and keeps one far afield.

    “Begin it where warm waters halt” follows the form of a child’s riddle. Thus, show the poem to a child, they’ll get it.

    Children think in different terms, no life baggage to muddle issues.

    A story comes to mind of a young girl once asked by an adult if she could recite the alphabet. She began “A, B, C,…X, Y, Z” without a hitch. The adult then asked if she could recite them backwards. She gave him a quizzical look, turned her back to him, and began again “A, B, C,….

    They perceive things from a somewhat simpler viewpoint.

    • I think the answer to this is so basic and so direct that when someone does find the treasure and the real meaning is made known, people are going to be in denial over it. I done several of these these treasure hunts (Treasure Trove, Clock without a Face) in the past and I remember coming up with really intricate and complex solutions for something that was in reality quite simple. It was all about perspective.

    • samsmith – Very correct that no water is involved. When I found what I believe WWWH, it was an exciting moment. The rest of the clues stack up pretty fast after that. I’m certain about clue 1, 2, and 3. I do have a complete solve with 9 clues and have done some searching but not enough. I also feel like after clue 3 I should be doing something different. The area where I’m searching has many possibilities for taking a wrong turn, thus going right by the rest of the clues like others have. I feel like it’s much more simple that even the solve I have but still working to figure it out. My complete solve is very straightforward. If I am correct about WWWH, then some of the most dedicated searchers have been there but had no idea what was right in front of them or beside them. I won’t mention names, but one of them knows Forrest very well and he runs a blog. In my opinion Forrest chose this area in general because obviously it is very dear to him and it could throw so many people off. Some people don’t or won’t see things that are obvious even if you show them or place it right in front of them. That is the best way to hide something. Think about how many people misplace their keys. When they look they usually pass right by the spot where they are sitting in plain sight a number of times before they see them or they are in their pockets. People get so preoccupied with other thoughts it blurs the obvious and doesn’t allow you to focus. Forrest has stated that he would be fine if the treasure is found now or a thousand years down the road. I think he would rather it be found sooner rather than later. I don’t say that because of the odd balls that have come out of the wood. If he wanted to keep it hidden for a long time, all he would have to do is hide the chest and release a poem. However, he puts out a memoir with hints and follows it up with another with even more hints. He didn’t hide the chest to keep us all searching forever. If you think back to his story about his first arrowhead he found. If he had searched for arrowheads with his Dad and never found any he would have probably pursued other passions. He understands that it’s important for someone to find the chest as a reward. I look back to all the searchers who started the chase back in 2010 that have come and gone for a variety reasons. Some have left because they couldn’t find the reward and needed to pursue other things they could find. There are of course many reasons why some have left the chase but my true thoughts are that Forrest wants someone to find the chest before too many years pass. I think he has definitely accomplished what he set out to do and more. He has stirred a desire to explore the Rockies in many states. Some have even walked where he has walked. When I think about the places I have searched I feel a little closer to Forrest. Similar to how he describes touching the painting of George Washington.

      Sorry rambling so much. Just had to pour out a few thoughts.

      • Hi all, I have a general question for anyone willing to answer. FF has said that a searcher will know when they have the correct location – yet they might not know they have clue 9 (aka, the chest) until they have the chest (not a quote, but sentiment of his past words).

        How do you think you will know when you have rock solid clue 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8 (skipping 9 as you would have the chest :-). What will be your proof beyond reason? Will there be any along the path other than faith in yourself and FF?

        Just curious – like how will you know you have wwh correct before picking up the chest?

        • Clue 9 is that you will have Title to the Gold… literally. The gold will not be in the box. That’s how he knows that you will become the owner without legal issues. He said he consulted an attorney. They wrote up the Title to the gold… literally.

          And that’s how he knows it has not yet been found. Because in order to claim it, you have to give over the title.

          • Hello nick handler. There isn’t a title to claim. The chest is out to be found. I wish you luck on your journey.

          • Don’t agree on this one Nick. It implies f has lied when he said he carried the chest one trip and the contents the second. He also said the treasure would be waiting for the finder when he/she got there.

            Doesn’t jive with your assumption here.

          • Hello Jake Faulker. Reread samsmith’s comment again, please. You’ll see they’re disagreeing with nick handler’s believe that there’s a title (legal documentation) to be found, not the treasures inside the chest.

          • Nick, I am with others who prefer to take FF at face value — the literal treasure is there inside the box. BUT… I do believe there is something else in there which serves as a device [read: legal document] to direct the finder to FF (or his trust atty). IMO, of course.

          • @Twingem – It really is precise and straightforward. If you have the correct WWWH it will be very evident soon after.

            @Nick Handler – Forrest has told us that he is not playing games and the finder will come upon the chest filled with the contents. No tricks, no games. I take him at his word.

        • Personally, if I found one or two clues, I might chalk it up to coincidence. However, it would be beyond coincidence to have 6, 7, or 8 clues fall into line along your path. And, IMO, the path or directions are critical — that is, if you follow the poem’s directions (which I believe many miss or don’t pay attention to) and it leads you to the next clue (which may only make sense when you see it); it is highly probable it is not mere coincidence. It is easy to give directions (even cryptic directions) if you know the Geography.

        • Good question Twingem, I only know two things for certain (imo), and those two things are; who/what “I” is in stanzas 1, 5, 6, and WWWH.

          Yes, I know “I” is Fenn telling us about hiding the treasure. But, there is another “I”. How do I know this? Because this “I” helps you to figure out a 2nd and 3rd meaning of everything Fenn is saying in the poem. The words are the same whether you read it as Fenn or if you read it as the other “I”. But the interpretation is different. “I’ in the poem give you a complete 2nd and 3rd point of view from which to understand the poem. Once you figure it out, you can see how Fenn is talking from the point of view of “I” when he answers interview questions and in his narrative of TTOTC. If you don’t understand “I”, then you think he is saying one thing. If you understand “I”, his comments confirm that you are on the right path. Also; the poem itself confirms for you that you are on the right track.

          Once you understand WWWH, you will see more in Fenn’s comments and in his narrative in TTOTC. His comments confirm for you that you have got it right. In addition, the poem itself talks about WWWH in several different ways. Once you figure it out, the poem says something completely different to you. You just know without a doubt that you understand WWWH. Its like the poem explains WWWH from several different perspectives and they all makes sense when you understand.

          The poem itself confirms for you that you are on the right track. (all imo)

          • Fascinating ideas. Thanks to all for sharing.

            I feel as if I was sure about the state/area before having a sense of knowing much else for sure. Was curious how others find/accept certainty.

            Imo, the chase requires a great deal of faith, both oneself and ff. Forget the “i can’t” and just do works well for me in this. Best of all, it helps parts of my brain “fire” that most daily life experiences simply don’t. My brain is “ablaze”! And of course, the discovery of new places, sights, sounds, smells, feelings, etc., is hard to beat. Time with kids hands down best.

            Thank you Forrest.

          • Hi Puzzled….(IMO) you are absolutely correct. Fun to see how the poem unfolds like a beautiful flower isn’t it. Have you managed to figure out how to link them in the proper order and also use them to find the starting point? (IMO) I know the start point, but have also uncovered additional instructions beyond the poems “face value” directions. Think of the instructions as a large target, where the outer ring (beginning) and the inner ring are missing. He provided the middle ring as clues to the missing external and inner rings (mirrored), which will allow you to focus in on the bulls-eye. Again, all of this is my opinion and may be incorrect, but the logical thinking and structure has revealed several new instructions. Therefore, I believe I am on the right path.

          • Puzzled et al.:

            That’s funny that HviteUlf used “face value” and “target” and “bulls-eye” in their post. Check out the “Gold” in this image description:


            I mailed this book to ff a long time ago,…the little boy throws darts at a target on the wall from his bed,…and retrieves them with string from his big ball (later in the book – not shown in the video):


            I have always thought of my main solution for The Chase as ff’s darts being thrown at that target,…landing in concentric rings of blazes,…heading gradually inward,…to finally get to the middle,…where we will eventually find the “Gold”.

            p.s. I am the kitten playing with that big ball of string,…and ff is that little boy stringing out all his clues and hints. 🙂

          • 🙂 I will only what Fenn has stated…FOCUS on the poem.. research is good but don’t let it sway you from your goal..there are a couple tangents that need to be figured out with a common but well hidden thread that once pulled….starts to open the poem into its true glory. I know for a fact that there are multiple levels and tests as you proceed through the various levels in the poem. Fenn has also made you aware of two of the first set of tests required….Do you believe the treasure is real and also are you confident enough to put BOTG….It doesn’t end there but that is for everyone to discover on your own 🙂

          • HviteUIf,
            “I know for a fact that there are multiple levels and tests as you proceed through the various levels in the poem.”

            Prove what you say is fact.
            I didn’t think so.

          • You are correct in stating your message and I have been a little unclear as to why I think that way. I am very CONFIDENT that the first ring has been cracked and I am nearly done with the second ring which has started to reveal elements of the third ring. There is only one way to prove that my thoughts are correct and that is to show you the treasure. I have not found it yet, so maybe all my words, thoughts and beliefs are completely without Merit.

          • I agree that the poem has all we need! I believe based ONLY on the poem, that “I” is spoken from the point of view of water. I just offer the quote about the little creek getting vertical sides and getting narrower until all that can get through is water (TTOTC) as a possible hint from the book that may confirm this. Whether it is a “hint” from the book does not matter. I firmly believe this poem is written from the point of view of WATER as well as the point of view of Fenn himself. I think it takes a bit of imagination to understand the point of view but the water cycle is basic and requires only logic to work through it.

            I am not on board with brown trout or brown bears, frogs, etc. Don’t think we need history of the area or people, artwork, books, or anything to get HOB. I think it is basic. Anyone with an understanding of the vocabulary used in the poem can understand it logically imo.

            The POEM is all we need and I think it tells us that “I” is water, we need to look at the big picture of the water cycle, and that it refers to 2 different places only water can go (not places on on a map).

          • Puzzled et al. – Actually,…the darts ARE being thrown at the wall (@ 1:16) in the video,…I just IMAGINED the bulls-eye target being there. It’s been a few years since I mailed the book. Hmmmmmm….

          • HviteUlf – You wrote:

            “Do you believe the treasure is real and also are you confident enough to put BOTG….”

            YES!!! I believe!

            And i have for more than 3 YEARS NOW!!!!!

            But there is a Big Boar Grizzly in my way,…and confidence is not the issue. Survival is! :-0

            Where is Bart the Bear 2 when I need him as a Search Buddy?:


            In his qualifications and behaviors:

            31. Great “attack” behaviors, running hits, mauling, wrestling, full contact, with instant “off” command

          • 🙂 Maybe a good Yel would help to get the attentions of those in control and they would use their experience to save you. Just be careful on which ones are real and willing to help.

  19. So where WW halts is actually where it starts… if you turn around. Well, FF did write that readers over the age of 12 might deserve another turn.

          • Hi E*. Had seen this pic before but just came across it again….I think almost at the exact spot you describe:

            Two thoughts:
            1. FF has said the TC could be retrieved in any weather, but to wait to go looking until the snow is gone. Judging by the pic, that would seem to be good advice.
            2. Access to this location is not easy, on foot or in a sedan. lol.

            So, IMO this locale must not be the end of FF’s rainbow. Not to say it couldn’t be somewhere along the way and still play an important role, tho……

          • Oh, here’s the info & lat/long:
            Photo taken in Bozeman, MT, MT, USA
            44° 53′ 59.72″ N 111° 17′ 44.07″ W

          • Very interesting location…any idea what the BM7255 refers too? Guess I will need to be more patient and take stock of what you have linked here. Thanks for Mytopo link but I knew about it already. Anyway, back to the hunt.

            General question: Anyone know where Fenn was born? I heard Texas, but my Daughter is wondering which town specifically.

          • SL – And based on the Radar color chart I posted previously,…that 207 is the Red-Black-Purple trail,…which is the “blaze” that leads right to my Purple Heart hidey hole (it used to look like one from the air,…anyway):

            “My personal contribution to the Vietnam War was of dubious distinction. I had been shot down once in the south of that country and once again in Laos . My reward for all of that was about a thousand dollars a month in pay, a Silver Star, three Distinguished Flying Crosses, a Bronze Star, sixteen Air Medals and a Purple Heart.”

            “A loving heart is the truest wisdom.” – Charles Dickens


          • melanie – I don’t see an associated topo map to that picture? Is that my spot under snow? Where the “thumb” is,…on the above map?

          • E*, it’s from Google Earth. The GE coord’s are 44° 53′ 59.72″ N 111° 17′ 44.07″ W. I think almost on top of your coord’s 44.8973190, -111.299561 (note different notation). Pic was taken about 260′ downstream of where Forest Creek meets Cabin Creek, just below a beautiful marshy fen on the left bank. Yes, I believe your spot is under that snow. I’d include a pic/screen capture of the spot for you to see, but can’t seem to insert it here. How do you do that?

          • melanie – Here’s the topo coordinates for the “thumb”:

            44.8973190, -111.299561

          • 🙂 Spending way to much time following links when I should be putting time focusing on Fenn’s path. Time to get back at it….hopefully I can stay away from more rabbit holes and wasting more time playing around.

          • melanie – You probably guessed this about me already,…but I called the West Yellowstone ranger station in late March 2013 to ask about Grizz presence as well as Winter access to my spot then. You know that Refuge Point that everyone went to as higher ground during the 1959 Quake when the Hebgen Dam could possibly have failed? That’s where you park in Winter. I even asked if one of those nice rangers would like to go out on a 3.5 mile snowshoe with me to that beautiful area. I mean,…people on snowshoes shouldn’t go “alone in there”,…right? Of course they didn’t know i was on The Chase…


          • E* – that does not surprise me at all….I should’ve known! You’re as crazy as me.

            And, yes…they probably figured (later) why you were there. Has happened to me.

          • Hi E* – taking a closer look….OK, comparing your mytopo map and the pic’s coord’s, seems to indicate a position on the mytopo map on that knob of a hill ESE of your fen location…a little more than about 6 miles away – exactly on the Wildlife Recreation & Management Area Boundary line, where the word “And” is. It’s about 1/2 way b/t the 2 places where the “designated” BSTrail crosses the boundary (east of the Cabin). No snowmobile trail is shown there…but so what. Anyhoo, for what it’s worth, it looks more like it was shot a bit farther east along that spine of the boundary, at least to me. IMO, of course. Hope this helps…

          • melanie – I put your coordinates into Google maps,…you are right. The Bad Driver wiped out at my spot. Thank you for showing me what it looks like in Winter,…since I didn’t go out there with the ranger.

            Ergo,…ff could take a short snowmobile ride from Refuge Point to go check on the bronze chest at my spot,…in Winter.


          • melanie – And if that Panoramio snowmobile pic I posted was East of my spot,…then from where ff was on top of Lightning,…my STAR blaze was East of his position. So maybe back then in 1946,…there WAS a star there! And like the Wise Men of old,…he found a STAR in the East. 😉

          • Constellations – Two stars of interest are “DeNeb” well known as being associated with Vega and the Summer Triangle. Fun to see the various names or stars and there meanings. Here is an interesting one tid bit – “Jabbah nu Scorpii” — does it actual mean forehead of scorpio? Just having some fun, but the double stars in Scorpio caught my eye. Lots of 9 nines mentioned.


          • Pschillerberg – You want me to look at your LINK??? Aren’t you the one that just wrote THIS???:

            Pschillerberg on July 20, 2016 at 2:45 pm said:

            Spending way to much time following links when I should be putting time focusing on Fenn’s path. Time to get back at it….hopefully I can stay away from more rabbit holes and wasting more time playing around.

            Just kidding. I LOVE to discuss the stars. My favorite theme song for The Chase is “Stairway to Heaven” (listen to the lyrics),…and one of my favorite photos is this:


          • LOL – yeah I know…I’m being bad…just one of those days to have a little fun and kick back a little….plus I find if I try to focus on the poem to much all it does is give me a headache. It is too hot outside (feels like 105) and having a difficult time getting my abstract thought process under control to focus on the poem details.

          • Pschillerberg – This is about the rock on pg. 56 and Skippy,…from a blog I used to post on (I wish deb would come back over here!!! deb! Come baaaaccckkk!):

            deb on August 6, 2015 at 4:36 pm said:

            Nice find Into.
            I am not sure if the rock means anything. So much to think about, he isnt really holding a rock as much as he is leaning on the rock?

            I still see Skippy as Ursa Minor, or Polaris the alpha star of that constellation. The world revolved around Skippy and explains why he has a fish in his mouth in that photo on page 52. The caption says” MY BROTHER BEING SKIPPY “.
            In the ancient myths of the gods and stars, Arcas is the name of Hercules half brother (their father Zeus, king of Gods). The constellation is named after Arcas, or the lesser bear. It is also known as the little dipper.

            Its always directly north, which by the way was once known as “wet” on the compass rose.

            And I liked your link to the stars,…thank you! 🙂

          • But Zeus saw that the dog Laelaps, known for always catching his prey would never stop…thereby a paradox was created and Zeus turned them in constellations Ursa Major and Ursa Minor. :-9 The ever lasting chase at the beginning and to continue forever in the heavens.

          • LOL – Lions, tigers and Bears Oh My! Wait where did TOTO go? Yep – he is my trail as well! 🙂 Let me know if you like my email.

          • Pschillerberg – What email???

            My 207 trail,…from another thread (I wrote a similar text to attach to a picture I sent to ff from the trail head sign):


            E* on July 20, 2016 at 12:01 pm said:

            lia – Lightning and Cutthroats and Grizzes,…oh my!

            “From there it’s no place for the meek”

            Key Word: “meek”

            That would be ME!!! :-0


            I got washed out by one of the most intense 3 hour lightning and thunderstorms I have ever experienced when I went on The Chase in July 2013. It turned the hoB creek right there the appropriate color “Brown”,…so that was good. And I had heard about the native Westslope Cutthroat Trout replacing the Rainbow trout by then.

  20. For a long time I thought that warm waters halt at Diablo Canyon near Buckman. It’s about 8.5 miles due north of Santa Fe. There is a dry river bed passing between a hill that has been split in half. I could make most of the clues fit except water high. I had a similar solve at Plaza Blanca near Abiquiu…and then there is the falls at Ghost Ranch. I am going to places with some water now.

  21. This is a reasonable question to ask: If you had hid something valuable within an area the size of the Rocky Mountains, and you had NINE clues to narrow it down to a space that was the size of the defined chest, exactly HOW specific would you make the 1st clue???? To me, being logicially and “expontentially” aware, my first clue would reduce the search size down by a significant amount without defining a specific location. So many people trying to define WWWH are being SO specific that it is almost trying to win the lottery. Yes, I understand that we are trying to win a lottery-sized payload, but I am not sure the first clue is supposed to be THAT hard.

    • Hi Naynav: a while back I did a calculation of how much each clue would have to reduce the remaining search area if all clues were equally effective in this regard and the final area after the 9th clue was a square 10 feet on a side (100 square feet). Assuming the initial search area is about half a million square kilometers (a bit under 200,000 square miles), the per clue factor works out to about 15.5:

      Clue 1: 500,000 km^2 –> 32,258 km^2
      Clue 2: 32,258 –> 2081
      Clue 3: 2081 –> 134.3
      Clue 4: 134.3 –> 8.662
      Clue 5: 8.662 –> 0.5589
      Clue 6: 0.5589 –> 0.03606 km^2 = 36060 m^2

      So if all clues were equally valuable at reducing search area, after clue 6 you’d be down to less than 9 acres.

      Of course, some clues will end up being much more restrictive than others, but it gives you a rough idea of how much each clue on average contributes to the solution.

  22. I posted this a long time ago. If taken literally, this is the best WWH I have found that truly halts. From “Journal Of a Trapper”.

    “…The sound of our footsteps over this place was like thumping over a hollow vessel of imense size in many places were peaks from 2 to 6 feet high formed of lime Stone, deposited by the boiling water, which appeared of snowy whiteness. The water when cold is perfectly sweet except having a fresh limestone taste. After surveying these natural wonders for sometime my comrade conducted me to what he called the “hour Spring” at that this spring the first thing that attracts the attention is a hole about 15 inches in diameter in which the water is boiling slowly about 4 inches below the surface at length it begins to boil and bubble violently and the water commences raising and shooting upwards until the column arises to the hight of sixty feet from whence it falls to the ground in drops on a circle of about 30 feet in diameter being perfetly cold when it strikes the ground ”

    It’s a good read if you happen to have a lonely campfire.

    • I also read Journal of a trapper. That part is interesting but I don’t think the poem leads to that place. The poem has to guide us to WWWH. However I have been interested to know how many others have read Journal of a trapper. I never see it discussed. Didn’t FF say he read it 12 times?

      • I’ve read it. I believe he read it because of the intrigue of the daily life of Osborne Russell and the fact that he spent a lot of his youth in that area. I don’t believe it has anything to do with the treasure.

          • Thank you. I’m not sure of this, but it seems ff uses the same speaking innuendos or words that sound like what Russell would have talked like. In his own stories compared to Russell’s, I hear the way he talks on paper, with that Texas drawl. lol

          • Doug – This probably agrees with what you are saying,…but I’m not sure. What do you and inthechaseto think?:


            “When I was sixteen, I read a book titled Journal of a Trapper by Osborne Russell, who traveled along the Madison River in 1835, just outside of West Yellowstone where Hebgen Lake is now. Russell, along with a few of Jim Bridger’s trappers, was attacked by eighty Blackfeet Indians near where Hebgen Dam would be built nearly a century later. After a brief fight, Russell escaped west toward Stinking Creek. About thirty years earlier, Lewis and Clark, on their wonderful Corps of Discovery, had passed through Montana not too many miles to the north. I was thrilled and wished I could have been part of those great adventures. Sixteen year old kids are like that I guess.”

        • Doug – I have hypothesized that the fur trapping,…especially beaver hunting (which they did a LOT of during Osborne Russell’s and Joe Meek’s time),…might be an aspect of this line in The Poem:

          “And hint of riches new and old”

          What do you think??? I know Forrest has gone to at least one trapper rendezvous.

          • E IMO, hint of riches new and old pertain to the treasure itself. Looking at some of the photos, it appears that for instance coins seem to be of many dates. In the snapshots there are coins with current dates and old dates. Also a few pieces of jewelry are of a more recent past compared to pre-colombian gold frog ornaments.
            As for the trapper rendezvous, I would guess his attendance would be a curiosity more than anything. He has stated that he wished he could have been in the 7th Calvary with Custer.

          • Doug – Thanks for your great insights in your response. I have also noticed some details about those coins. On the cover of TTOTC,..are ALL the coins facing heads up? I do not have the book here. If so,…what do you think that means?

            And here is the link and quote you were referring to,…but it is slightly different:


            “To answer your question in full would take more space that Jenny allows here, but I will say that I would like to have been with the first human that stepped into North America, and I would like to have been with the Indians at the Custer fight. And probably a lot of events in-between.f”

          • E good guess but not clear. I nip everything in the bud that isn’t totally clear. Something’s are impostible to know.

      • I have been reading your posts and believe that you are absolutely correct about WWWH. I have been ruminating on it, and still have not come up with the answer yet, any help would be repaid in kind. pe4@princeton.edu

        • Sappho1- I think I’ve figured out WWWH, but what makes you think I’m correct. There are lots of searchers claiming they have it.

          • I am a careful reader, reasonably smart, and have read many blog posts and I can recognize the truth when I hear it. I did come up with a possible WWWH yesterday but it does not provide the legs that your WWWH has unless I have not really plugged it in. I think my line of thinking is correct but not the right solution yet. -it is just a hunch and I appreciate you trying to lead us to water, they don’t have to drink but I am guzzling down. I just wish my WWWH fit the anecdotes in those three story examples that you gave mine does not really fit except loosely. Is the plural of water absolutely nec. ? Any guidance you have I am all ears, and should your advice lead to me ending up with the TC I certainly would give you a substantial portion because we all know the entry point is everything. Would love to chat, and yes, I read the Journal of a Trapper. pe4@princeton.edu -PS I read and write in Greek fluently!

  23. E* – personally, I love the Gallatin and it may be as important to Forrest as the Madison River. That said, I think the ‘source of the longest river’ in America is important in the big picture. Stream conservation is important to Forrest because streams are the life-blood of all creatures great & small. Because so many search the Missouri tributaries perhaps folks will enjoy learning about the source of America’s longest River – the Jefferson, which is also where Sacagawea recognized Beaverhead Rock and piloted L & C onto Three Forks of the Missouri.

    Lengthy but interesting:

    The Gallatin River first rises in Gallatin Lake in Yellowstone National Park, southwest of Mammoth Hot Springs and south of the park’s Mount Holmes. The west longitude is 110 degrees and 53 minutes, and the north latitude is 44 degrees, 51 minutes. Altitude is roughly 9,000 feet. From there the river flows through the park down Gallatin Canyon to Bozeman and then Three Forks. Total length from Gallatin Lake to its confluence with the Missouri is 115.4 miles.

    The Madison originates in 8,500-foot-high Madison Lake, also in Yellowstone National Park. Maps show the lake’s location at 110 degrees and 52 minutes west longitude, and 44 degrees, 21 minutes north latitude, about 7 miles south of Old Faithful. The stream discharging from the lake is first called the Firehole River, until it joins the Gibbon River about 20 miles to the north and becomes the Madison. The entire length of the Madison is 177.3 miles from Madison Lake to the Missouri at Three Forks.

    The Jefferson takes an even more varied course. The stream issuing from Brower’s Spring is located at 111 degrees, 29 minutes west longitude, and 44 degrees, 33 minutes north latitude, at an elevation of approximately 8,800 feet. From this point on, the first stretch of the Jefferson is known as Hellroaring Creek, for the thundering noise of its riffles and waterfalls. Soon thereafter, it flows into the flat of the valley, where it becomes the Red Rock River and flows west then northwest to Clark Canyon Reservoir. Below the dam, the river becomes the Beaverhead until it joins the Big Hole River just north of Twin Bridges, beyond which it is known as the Jefferson. The total distance from Brower’s Spring to the junction of the Jefferson with the Madison at Three Forks is 298.3 miles. This confirms that the Jefferson drainage is the longest of the three and that Brower’s Spring is the Missouri’s true origin.

    Which brings us, finally, back to the idea of following a single drop of water. Were we to follow one that dropped from the sky into Brower’s Spring, it would flow along the 298 miles from the spring to Three Forks. Then it would continue another 2,341 miles to St. Louis, where the Missouri meets the Mississippi. From there our drop would travel 1,003 miles to New Orleans, after which it would travel an additional 103 miles before finally depositing itself into the Gulf of Mexico. The total distance is 3,745 miles, making this great American river system the world’s third longest, after the Nile and the Amazon.

      • You’re welcome Jake. Doubtful it will help me or anyone else solve the poem, but I can imagine Forrest flying the full length of the longest river in America. How many people would ever have the chance or resources to do that? I’ve been thinking for a while of armchair exploring the Jefferson country. But my guess is that he included the reference but there isn’t enough evidence in his journals to formulate another solution there. I’m under the weather but thinking about ff’s oxymornonish post at Jenny’s.

          • Thanks Jake. Mostly just a debilitating headache – seems like such a waste of time to sleep it away.

        • Anna – Interestingly,… I did recently develop your ‘source of the longest river’ idea in part of my main solve,…but its ‘source’ was a tributary to the Madison. I also continued it from there all the way down into the Mississippi (knowing full well where Brower’s Spring was). But that ‘source’ was TFTW from a human trail to make me believe Forrest carried a twenty plus pound pack TWICE up steep terrain to get to it,…especially after hiking “less than a few miles” to get to that intersecting human trail. It would have been a great spot to memorialize Forrest though,…but then I realized that the USFS would ALWAYS spell the name wrong on their maps.

          That was my OTHER solution for:

          “So I wrote a poem containing nine clues that if followed precisely, will lead to the end of my rainbow and the treasure.”

          This will all make sense,…if you remember my Rising Rainbow Trout,…created by some land use boundaries (which I ain’t gonna share…yet!). The treasure would be then located in that Rainbow’s end,…or tail section.

          • E* – I gotta admit that was the best topo trout I’ve seen; and no worries because I don’t remember where it was located other than Montana. I’ve since had too much imagination and can find those trout images on maps everywhere.

          • Is this the E that used to be banned? If so welcome bud. You sounded like a smart one over on the other board. Glad to hear your inputs here.

          • Iron Will – Do me a favor,…copy and paste that post over there for Mike to see, OK? Thank you for the nice compliment. 🙂

        • Hello Anna. May I suggest to drink plenty of fluids for your headache. Sometimes headaches are signs of dehydration. Hope you get to feeling better real soon.

    • Anna – Great post and link!!!! And might I add a selection from one of Forrest’s favorite poems to support that:


      What we call the beginning is often the end
      And to make and end is to make a beginning.
      The end is where we start from…

      With the drawing of this Love and the voice of this Calling

      We shall not cease from exploration
      And the end of all our exploring
      Will be to arrive where we started
      And know the place for the first time.
      Through the unknown, unremembered gate
      When the last of earth left to discover
      Is that which was the beginning;
      At the source of the longest river
      The voice of the hidden waterfall
      And the children in the apple-tree

      Not known, because not looked for
      But heard, half-heard, in the stillness
      Between two waves of the sea.

      T. S. Eliot- 1955

      • E* … Reading the last quad of Little Gidding does cause one to contemplate if the toil we expend on wanderlust fuels our souls or depletes them. There is a balance to be found in discovery. It’s hard to find time for everything and not become a human-doing. I can hear Germanguy in the background yelling, ‘”Finish this chase, slide-in sideways yelling holy cr@p, what a ride.” Back to Eliot, you left out one of my favorite verses where the fire and the rose become one.

        • Anna – That’s why I included the link of the whole thing! Your words were beautiful. I hope I can be that eloquent when I have a headache!! Sending healing your way…

        • Jake – You’re welcome. Forrest only published this part of that poem (it was fun to find the rest):

          We shall not cease from exploration
          And the end of all our exploring
          Will be to arrive where we started
          And know the place for the first time.

          • I think Forrest knew we would find the rest of the quote & the “hidden” waterfall statement is a gem.
            This is the second time I have seen someone post it here.

    • Anna – Forgot to mention that in my just-for-fun Gallatin solve:

      The “A River Runs Through It” Gallatin River Solve

      Hell Roaring Creek would fit perfectly as “your creek” in this line:

      “There’ll be no paddle up your creek,
      Just heavy loads and water high.”

      But using Fan Creek further up river is more fun for “your creek”,…since we are ALL ff’s ‘fans’,…and that is the “put in” for many fly fishermen and rafters on the Gallatin (ergo. “no paddle up your creek”,…just follow the Gallatin)

  24. E* thanks for linking T.S. Elliot’s Little Gidding. That poem has nibbled at my brain for 3 years in connection to the Jefferson.

  25. We should take a look in the mirror. That is where u begin. Now go study yourself.
    🙂 be sure to look deep.

    • Amy, I’m shallow so I won’t have to study long and hard. LOL

      Just kidding around. On a serious note, are you the Amy evacuated from Colorado’s fires?

  26. E* thanks for the Sonja Henie article. When your name is headlining, there is something to be said for insisting on the highest quality and maintaining it. I’m not sure how Sonja relates back to the chase for treasure. If she did skate Ketchum/SunValley, then the better tie-in is ‘sun’ and perhaps the spelling of her name. The Sun Valley chapter IMO links to a way to hem the poem and look for hems in land division.

  27. IMO, the key word in WWWH is “Waters” this means there are more than one…not just a single hot spring like “Old Faithfull”, so if you look on a map in New Mexico, Colorado, Wyoming, and Montana where do two warm bodies of water Hault and you can take in a canyon down..that should narrow down your search area..Everyone should share where they believe WWWH is located..for instance IMO WWWH is where the Gibbon and Firehole come together to form the Madison River..The water coming from the tailrace of Hebgen Dam is always around 40 degrees..so searches share where you believe where WWWH and take in canyon down are and let’s see how many we come up with in New Mexico, Colorado, Wyoming, Montana, don’t be shy there are still 7 clues left to solve to find the TC..hehehe

    • If I were to tell you where my Warm Waters Halt is located, it would probably take you less than two days to figure out my entire solve…at least the most important elements. Sorry, I am not telling.

      Good luck in getting others to divulge such a critical spot.

      TRY to STAY SAFE


    • I don’t believe “waters ” means 2 bodies of water coming together. IMO , when referring to any body of water, many will say waters, as in those waters are calm or those waters are warm.

      • I disagree, but I have expressed that several times in discussions on this thread, so do not want to re-stir that pot.

        Good luck and TRY to STAY SAFE


    • “There are a few words in the poem that are not useful in finding the treasure Phil, but it is risky to discount any of them. You over simplify the clues. There are many places in the Rocky Mountains where warm waters halt, and nearly all of them are north of Santa Fe. Look at the big picture, there are no short cuts. f”


      Look at the big picture.


  28. All, first post here, love the intrigue and will one day get out there w boots, as I live in Colorado and grew up in wyo, first heard of FF back in 2012-13, stepped away and am back. One big dilemma I have as a newbie is that it would be daunting to figure out where folks have already been much less a way to ‘know’ you’re on the right track, anyone tracking ‘most visited’ areas? That said, I offer up some thoughts that likely have been covered before, but I had not seen any direct threads (surely the regulars know where), I choose to air my thoughts since I don’t have a solve but would feel proud to have participated even if I didn’t find it.
    Big shout out to Dal, love his writing style, I also feel strongly about the YNP area, more because I agree it is amazing, wild and scary…as life tends to be. My friend who brought the story to my attention was pretty obsessed and we discussed for several weeks, he showed me some of FF links and we agreed YNP seemed a top contender. My logic starts with FFs goal to get people out there exploring, first national park, still my favorite of all, the diversity of the place is unheralded, geothermal (side bar: I could not live without warm water, how tough those first explorers/settlers were and how nice a hot spring would have been), the caldera, the high altitude, the water, wildlife etc. So I asked myself ‘so FF loved the area, fished, traveled across, etc., what parts of the area might be the most awe inspiring’? To me there are a couple…old faithful, so one of what may or may not be the first clues, WWWH, a geyser shoots water up and it literally halts, if just for a moment, before it falls back to earth, surely FF explored some geysers in and around the park (newbie alert! Haven’t read FFs books, would love to…anyone in Denver want to loan a copy? I’d buy lunch or something, I’m not at the obsessed stage yet). So what say ye all about vertically halted water?
    Along this line of logic, take it in the canyon down, my absolute favorite spot in the park is the lower falls, so awesomely powerful, any and all who experience can appreciate our human smallness in view of the falls. Wouldn’t it be sweet if FF ‘hid’ it in the waters below by just chucking it over the rail? Also the last part talks about the cold waters, your effort to get it, no place for the meek, etc. Now don’t get me wrong I also think FF was much more precise in his location…if anyone wants a side trip on their searches, check out the town of Rand, Colorado, this is ‘my’ place, in that when I was on a solo mission I stopped, marveled at the beauty and committed right there that it was a place I wanted to ‘end’ my time here, reflecting on FFs story of how the chase came to be I immediately thought of how quickly I said ‘this is my spot’, so if YNP were FFs area I thought about what ‘spots’ could have equal effect, the odd, nowhere else features like old faithful and the falls were my go-tos. Thoughts on the lower falls? I haven’t seen any threads on these so apologies if old news.

    Also, Dal should you read this my mom lives near lummi point and she is also a wyominite so maybe you need a sounding board? Long shot I know but she has time on her hands and is an adventurer at heart.

  29. Hello all, this is my first post. I had an idea that WWWH could mean, in a spatial sense. There are vents in the ocean floor, (low point), so if you keep going vertically, the halting point could be the highest warm springs. To my knowledge that would be Conundrum Springs. The only fly in the ointment there is that it’s above 11,000 feet. But he never said your starting point was below 10,200…

    Aside from that, does anyone know if he carried the chest from his car in his hands, or, did he (more likely?) have it in a backpack? I saw some comment about “gloves” somewhere else and it seems a bit ridiculous that he would walk 1-3 miles (that is a guess) holding something in his hands, and, in plain sight.

    • I’m thinking today that WWWH could also mean any warm spring that isn’t moving. Your bathtub doesn’t move, either. So any WW would be halted. I wish I were out there !
      Once question…what is the meaning of the third line in the first stanza? It ends with a comma and the next line seems to have no continuity. Any thoughts? Thanks!

      • Robert;

        To me, “I can keep my secret where, and hint of riches new and old.” means

        FF could keep the Treasure Chest’s location a secret, but he could also hint of the riches, both new and old, that were to be found in the Treasure Chest.

        Many try to make it much more complex than I feel that it is…Pretty straight forward to me.

        This is, if course, just my opinion


      • The first stanza is “awkward” because I feel there is more to it than just the words you’re reading there. Consider how difficult it is to hide a message in plain sight, maintain the rhythm and rhyme of the poem, and still have the first stanza sort of make sense (though not appear to offer anything tangible other than an introduction).

      • I think I understand the third line in the first stanza. I think you have to understand who/what “I” is. “I” can keep secrets, WEAR, and hint of treasures old and new. When rocks get worn down by certain processes over time, they show “hints” of treasures from the past in the worn areas. The treasures are “old” because they have been there a very long time, but they are new to the finder. These two lines in the poem seem the clearest to me.

        • Hello All. Since Forrest went in alone he can keep his secret where (so he’s hinting to leave his friends and relatives alone). IMO if you somehow know where the specific WWWH or THE HOB (which is logically linked to WWWH due to G&F definition of Warm Waters) then you can ask your small granddaughter to interpret the rest of the clues with BOG (boots on ground) to take you to the TC a short distance away. IMO you put in your canoe for part of the journey because it’s too far to walk especially carrying the TC and it’s contents. This does not mean that it is very far from WWWH. Look at the stick figure drawings for hints of why you don’t want to tarry very long after find the TC. In any case you will be surprised when you open it as well as if you understand the reason the area is so special to FF. Note: Trout typically face upstream and grow large when they can live in cold water but swim a short distance downstream to where a hot springs enters the stream.

      • Robert, One thought… probably not valid but here it is:

        “I can keep my secret where”
        where … w – here … ω – here
        ω = small omega
        Ω = large omega … a mega O
        so, the secret is in a small circle or at the last place.

      • If you truly wish to know what line 3 means Mr. Miller, then email me and I will show you something.

        saemlesls@msn dot com

    • Hi mister79

      In my thinking all such questions are irrelevant in fact they may lead to much frustration and waisted funds. Here is why…

      Forrest can infinitely hide behind unknowns. The real question should be how long did it take you Mr. Fenn to hide your treasures and prep the spot with blazes etc…

      Answer: 15-20 years

      You get my drift here 🙂

      So while he may have hid the treasure in one single afternoon he may have also been to the spot a week earlier and dug a colossal pit in the earth and then returned with the chest a week later.

      The unknowns are almost infinite so realistically we may never know. Possibly answers will be found in the wreckage after he is deceased and gone.

  30. I have so many places for WWWH. I remember the first one that stood out to me was the red river and the water being labeled as warm waters because it held brown trout year around because fish coming upstream on the rio grande would move into the red river to spawn. I also read something about the red river being able to be fished year around because it held a certain temperature and are warm waters (holds trout) all the way up stream to where it halts at the Brown trout fish hatchery and could also be considered home of brown. Honestly I haven’t a clue anymore I just love reading what people come up with.

    • I think you have it backwards, Don: trout like cold water, not warm water. That there are trout in the Firehole River above Firehole Falls is a bit of an anomaly; they did not come to be there naturally since they cannot overcome the falls from below. Brook trout were introduced above the falls in the late 1800s, and brown trout were stocked in the Nez Perce creek about the same time.

      • Yeah they do like cold waters but what I am referring to was a new Mexico dnr fishing report that listed the waters that Held trout as warm waters. Like warm in the way you would be warm if you were close to what you were looking for not necessarily the temperature of the waters. There are a lot of temperature cold waters around there but not all hold trout. But like I said, was the first thing starmed fitting together in my mind and thought I’d share.

        • You might have misread that report. It says, “Warm waters include all streams, lakes, and ponds, except those designated as trout waters.”

  31. I don’t think my comment showed up when I tried to put it up last night so here it goes again:One of my theories about WWWH is that it has to do with coal plants putting water that was used as a coolant in the coal process back into the original source.This is called thermal pollution because the fish and other organisms are not used to the heat.It can also cause a reduction in oxygen which means trouble for the fish.One reason I think that this theory could work is because Forrest has expressed a love for the outdoors throughout his life and I believe that he would care about the fishing at the very least.Another reason I think this might be true is because Forrest mention both coal and ‘warm water’ on page 58 of Too Far to Walk.

  32. OK,
    We are getting way off track with the theme here:
    Where warm waters halt.
    I wish Odds n Ends would come back.
    JD, you were right.
    I will try to keep with the subject of the post.

    • Jake – That Odds and Ends thread has probably reached it’s maximum,…and Dal is probably creating a new thread. But I am SURE he is very busy,…still trying to produce those videos he was working on.

  33. Puzzled – You wrote:


    Puzzled on July 11, 2016 at 10:19 pm said:

    Could volcanic tuff be “no place for the meek”? As in tough being the opposite of meek? Or is this a stretch? Now that I have my WWWH, I need to confirm HOB. Thought I had identified it. If I have it right, it isn’t a house or related in any way to someone named Brown. It seems like a good fit and at this place is “volcanic tuff” which immediately caught my eye and I wondered if it was “no place for the meek”. Any opinions on this?

    Did you mean volcanic duff?:


    About 15 miles downstream from where the Gallatin leaves the park, the Taylor Fork enters. The river now becomes bigger and sometimes murkier. After rains, volcanic duff in the Taylor Fork watershed causes the tributary to muddy the Gallatin for miles.

  34. I would like to know how many of you believe that you can find the treasure and stay completely dry (besides perspiration). Lately, most of my solves are near water but not necessarily having to go IN the water.

    Yet, Forrest’s comment about “it will be worth the cold” keeps ringing in my ears….a part of me is not taking that literal anymore. Anyway…

    • Jess- I haven’t figured out the whole poem, but think I’ve got “I”, WWWH, HOB, too far to walk. At this point, I would say, Yes. I do think it’s likely that the TC can and will be found without getting much more than slightly damp.

    • Jess, IMO… my solve keeps myself what you would say is completely dry (minus the few on grasses and whatever rain has wetter recently. Keep in mind that most water can be kept away by way of barriers (i.e. boat, rain gear, sedan that can drive through a low water area like a river or spring, bridges, submarine with robotic arms, waders, etc.). IMO of course. The only scenario I can come up with is a dive in a full set suit. You are bound to get part of your face wet, I would imagine. Figure the what ifs of your question’s scenarios.

    • This isn’t a definite opinion, just an idea, but “worth the cold” could be a reference to “cold hard cash” (gold).
      So I don’t discount anything, I think it’s important to keep an open mind.

        • I have to admit, though, that in my very strong solve it may very well be wet.
          But I could be wrong, as others feel the same way on their solves.

          I guess the best thing is for each searcher to follow their own thoughts and not be led astray by anyone else.
          Have faith in yourself. If you turn out to be wrong, you haven’t lost anything by being true to yourself.

    • Jess…IMO the finder will be dry when they reach the TC. Initially, in order to shorten the walking, it is necessary to quickly (not meekly) cross or navigate a river with a canoe or similar. If they wear waders they may just feel the quite cold water near the home of Brown but not feel wet. The canoe may be a lapped wood variety like the ones that woodland braves (“a brave in the woods”) used to make.

  35. Just a thought….it may be more west than north, but the last code talker’s name was John Brown. He lived in Crystal, New Mexico. Anyone else think this might be connected?

    • Rob ( using the really big selfie) this isn’t a dating site, don’t be trolling for women here…just kidding. Fenn said something like we really should start at the beginning. I feel it’s too easy to get tripped up by all of the outliers, which equates to Wild Goose Chase

      Many of us have gone crazy trying to pin down a geographical location where WWH. For 3 years I’ve been pouring over everything imaginable looking for a spot like that.

      Fenn said there are many places in the Rockies WWWH and most were N of SF. While not untrue, that comment like many of his, isn’t much help.

      Let’s forget about all of the PHYSICAL ways water changes/ halts, [ been discussed a 1000 ways], I don’t think you can find this place by searching maps using ‘flowing water’ logic. Hot springs, river convergences, mountain shadows, basins, dry lakes, glaciers are all exciting, no I think the answer is trickier than that.

      • On another thread, I just stated that my Key Word(s) were “The Wood”. By doing some careful research these two words were able to direct me to an area where I found my wwwh. From there, it was just one step at a time to the “end”

        I hope, beyond hope that I am correct. If not, I will be eating a very large portion of humble pie come next week.

        Good luck to ALL searchers and TRY to STAY SAFE


  36. Family, IMHO, is most significant and *will lead the way to the treasure. Family looms largest in the legend that is Forrest Fenn.

    Full circle.

    • Family is definitely not a whimsical thing to play with. Far to many people don’t understand that they are your main treasure and can be easily hurt. We should all protect them at all cost.

  37. What about history fellas/ ladies? Fenn said we have to figure out ‘WHAT’ the clues mean, he tells us there are nine total & possibly the clues get easier as we progress.

    Right away, I feel he has set us up w/ this ‘where’ thing
    Because he tells a lot of stories revolving around streams/ rivers, we automatically start by looking for a ‘WHERE”.

    IMO, the town of Truth or Consequences in New Mexico is a fair example.
    Again it has to do with history, the kind of thing that will easily last 100, possibly 1000 years.

    How & how long ago that town got the name is an interesting bit of trivia, too bad they couldn’t place it on some billboard signs using a 70mph Font. Frankly I never knew myself, just happen to be looking up stuff about the CCC boys & found some photos taken back when, of somebody’s father hanging out in town on his day off.

  38. It’s been 7 years give or take that searchers have been seeking the elusive chest. With that being said, it seems that many searchers are still looking in the wrong state and still have not figured out WWWH. I’m among everyone in that I don’t have the chest and am still searching. I think I have a very strong WWWH and am wondering if any other searchers have allowed logic and imagination to guide their solves.

    • Hear me all,
      “I think I have a very strong WWWH and am wondering if any other searchers have allowed logic and imagination to guide their solves.”

      Nope, we’re just playing tiddly winks hoping someone will tells us what WWWH is reference to. C’mon, where did ya ever we need to have logic and imagination?! Ok ~ just funnin with ya.
      But seriously… can you give us a bit more to chew on, if you want some feed back?

      • Seeker – Read River Bathing is Best and then search the Rockies. That is the best I can do without making it blatantly obvious. Forrest has tried his so hard to lead us to the treasure but most everyone stumbles. Heck even one of the questions that he answered for Jenny Kile went something like this. The clues did not exist when I was a kid but most of the places the clues refer to did. That should have been a huge help to searchers as to what states not to search in but alas we everyone is still meandering all over the Rockies from north of Santa Fe to Canada. I honestly think that Forrest expected that with the number of searchers out now that the chest would be found by now. In my opinion most searchers want this to be much harder to figure out than it actually is. I’m not suggesting that my solve is correct but with the solves I have seen, the chase could last for eternity!

  39. I think warm water halts when it merges with cold water and it goes down the canyon. Several places like this. A couple in each Rocky mountain state. Forrest said people have walked past it. They must of not seen the blaze! I believe the blaze is on a tree……a marking. Why? Because it’s not by a trail. And another meaning for blaze, is a trail. Just thinking…….Lou Lee

  40. Lou Lee – I think WWWH deals with very hot waters mixing with cool waters that also halt. It can be very hard to narrow down a place in the Rockies where that happens. I happen to think there is one place on planet earth where the poem describes that unique place. In my opinion the blaze would be much harder to recognize if the searcher can’t even figure out WWWH. I don’t think the blaze would be on a tree. A tree can suffer the wrath of nature pretty quickly and be gone. A tree may or may not last long. I think the blaze is something that would last longer than a tree.

  41. Now that I think about the tree maybe not lasting you must be right! A fire blaze would not last either, because foliage grows back! Back to the drawing board! Best Wishes and stay safe!

  42. I was wondering if anyone here could help me. There was someone who posted last year named Marvin Candle. He had a long solution to the poem that he posted at that time, and I was amazed just how close it came to my own findings. I swear I think he got awfully close, and may be the person who got within a few hundred feet of the treasure. He may not have personally gotten within a few hundred feet, but his solution in writing may have put him that close.

    I have been going over the clues and they are leading me very close to the same place he pointed out. I would like to discuss this with him, or share on line here how I am arriving at the same conclusions. Is Marvin still posting here, or has he given up? I am very interested in finding out if he is still searching or not. I am new here, but Marvin’s solution makes a great amount of sense. If anyone knows how to contact him I would greatly appreciate it. Thanks!

  43. In researching I came across a local definition of ‘warm waters’. From the New Mexico Wildlife department “Warm waters include all streams, lakes, and ponds, except those designated as trout water”. Take it as you will, i found it interesting.

  44. All,

    Ok, I’m going to reveal my interception of WWWH’s, in the hopes of moving the chase forward, not to say that I am correct but it is a theory I would like to discuss. I have not seen anyone mention this as possibly being WWWH, although I have seen a short thread here asking about them in NM and that was it, so I’ll assume others have considered them.


    The National Wild and Scenic Rivers in my opinion are WWWH, now let me explain. I view warm as friendly, cordial, tame and where those waters halt could be considered a boundary, and if they halt they must then become something other that calm, cordial or tame, they become wild.

    “There are a few words in the poem that are not useful in finding the treasure Phil, but it is risky to discount any of them. You over simplify the clues. There are many places in the Rocky Mountains where warm waters halt, and nearly all of them are north of Santa Fe. Look at the big picture, there are no short cuts. f”

    The National Wild and Scenic Rivers System contains 208 rivers in the United States that are considered Wild and Scenic Rivers, and of those 208, nine (many) are contained within the Rocky Mountain States that Forrest has narrowed the search area to, 4 in the state of NM, 1 in Colorado, 2 in Wyoming and 2 in Montana, and nearly all of those nine are north of Santa Fe with the exception of the Pecos, which is to the east.

    I don’t want to do into the details of what lead me to this just yet, but here is one teaser for you:


    Read his bio carefully, there are some unique things that should jump off the screen and into your lap!

    If you dig you will find mentions of the Wild and Scenic Rivers, but none ever considered them as the actual place WWWH, so while Forrest has said that several have mentioned it, they may not have considered it as the actual place WWWH, and out of the nine in the RM’s they could have mentioned the incorrect ones.

    ***DAL, you even mentioned the Wild and Scenic Rivers***

    Would love to get your input.


    • Seannm-

      My interest in the Rio Grande W&S River was an isolated situation and not connected to examining all the W&S Rivers in the quad state area (QSA). Sounds like an interesting idea though…but since it’s just a clue and not the location of the chest, why remove the possibility that a clue could be outside the QSA? We know Indulgence is in the QSA but as others have often pointed out, Forrest has not yet indicated that all the clues are also within the QSA. As long as you’re playing a hunch maybe you should widen your horizon to include other W&S rivers that might lead you back into the QSA?

      • Dal,

        I put a lot of research into the NWSRA which included those designated rivers outside the QSA. That doesn’t mean that others shouldn’t do their own due diligence because their interpretation of follow on clues maybe different than mine, i.e canyon and or too far to walk.


    • I like it. I don’t know much about other states but Montana would be part of the Missouri River and part of the Flathead. The Missouri wild and scenic parts would be too low and not really in the mountains. The Flathead would be prime, especially the South Fork above Hungry Horse Reservoir leading into the Bob Marshall Wilderness. I don’t hear much chatter on these boards about that area which probably means it hasn’t been searched much.
      A quick scan on GE found this little gem on the Spotted Bear River in the shadow of Beaver Hill downstream of where Beaver Creek dumps in. http://static.panoramio.com/photos/large/94870954.jpg
      This picture is only at 4100 feet pretty much all of the river itself is too low but doesn’t that look like a good place to hide a chest?
      The Middle Fork and the North Fork make up the boundaries of most of Glacier National Park so a lot of potential there as well.

      • Bryan,

        As Dal mentioned above and previously, don’t get so focused on the 5000ft remark until you get to what you believe is your search spot. I is quiet possible that WWWH could be below that 5000ft threshold, but the ending spot that is “up” your creek could be above 5000ft.

        The same could be said for the state that WWWH is located in.


  45. “My church is in the mountains and along the river bottoms where where dreams and fantasies go to play.”

    Could be a subtle salute to a Senator who died of cancer 4 years before Fenn’s diagnosis.

  46. I believe that each of the following lines are talking about a single thing/place.

    Begin it where warm waters halt

    Not far, but too far to walk.

    From there it’s no place for the meek,
    The end is ever drawing nigh;
    There’ll be no paddle up your creek,
    Just heavy loads and water high

    I remain convinced that when you figure out what these lines are talking about, you can see that the stories, “The Totem Pole Caper” and “Looking for Lewis & Clark” are confirmation that you have the right answer for WWWH. Both of these stories describe WWWH in different ways. I think it is impossible to see what these stories are really talking about until you figure out WWWH and then all of a sudden its like you are reading the stories in a different language or something. The hidden meaning becomes obvious. Of course this is my opinion.

    I also think that the chapter, “Important Literature” in TTOTC contains a significant clue. I figured out the clue several weeks ago but it wasn’t until I was re-reading “The Totem Pole Caper” that I realized that there is a hint in “Totem Pole Caper” that connects to “Important Literature”.

    All in my opinion of course.

  47. I agree that the blaze is not the end of the poem. I don’t think it is the exact middle, but it is not the beginning or the end. I’ve arrived at the blaze (imo) but I have quite a way to go before the TC.

  48. Sorry for my typo. I mis-stated what I meant. Let me re-state it here.
    I think people are trying to follow the LINES in order when that isn’t the intent. In other words, the lines people are claiming to be “clues” are not clues. I’m sure there are nine clues in there, but they aren’t the nine lines that most folks have identified. IMO As I have stated in another post, I think the following lines are talking about exactly the same thing/place.

    Begin it where warm waters halt
    Not far but too far to walk
    From there its no place for the meek
    The end is ever drawing nigh
    No paddle up your creek
    Just heavy loads and water high

    I think if you can figure out WWWH from those LINES, then you will know what the BLAZE is. That blaze gives you the name of a PEEK/PEAK.

    • Yep, Jim: good site. Been using it for a year and a half for the Chase. It doesn’t have all U.S. hot and warm springs, but it is more complete than any other site I’ve found, and it has a pretty convenient interface.

  49. Begin it where warm waters halt. Warm waters is the humans; we’re warm and mostly water. Begin where you have to stop. Like the top of a ski lift….

  50. Recently I posted about Forrest saying something pertaining to hot springs NOT being the starting point (WWWH), but searchers continue to use hot springs as their starting point.

    I believe my post was nuked for that statement, (not sure – Goofy/Dal?). I would not want to post incorrect Forrest info.

    Below is a copy of my reference to that statement, from this blog under the heading “Looking in New Mexico” part one:

    Phillip Mason on November 9, 2013 at 11:31 am said:

    When Forrest is asked about what the clues are he always starts with “Begin it where warm waters halt”. He says this is the starting point and that it will do no good trying to figure out the rest until you find this correct starting point. It can only be one place and not something ambiguous like hot springs, dams, rivers (remember he uses the word “creek”) or any other idea that could be fit into a hundred possible places. No endeavor can be more important than figuring out the warm waters clue. I used to think it was the NM fishing waters designation but that is also a thought that can take you to too many places. Forrest says if you figure this out correctly it will take you right to the spot without any guess work – his words are “there will be nothing accidental about it.” So, if the poem is a map, as f says it is, and there is nothing tricky about it, the best thing to roll around in your mind is where the heck is that one single place where warm waters halt.

    So maybe it’s not a direct quote from Forrest and Phillip is embellishing? I don’t know, but it reads as if hot springs are not the starting point.

    Can anyone elaborate on this? Sorry if I was wrong, Pete.

    • Peter;

      In your post (above) you say, “It can only be one place and not something ambiguous like hot springs, dams, rivers (remember he uses the word “creek”) or any other idea that could be fit into a hundred possible places. No endeavor can be more important than figuring out the warm waters clue”

      I MOST strongly disagree! I DO NOT think that we can eliminate hot springs, (I leave out dam for a reason),rivers (remember he uses the word creek) …” There are many hot springs creeks and rivers in the Rocky Mountains, and most of them are north of Santa Fe. This is true, BUT, I believe, that words later in the poem direct you to the correct wwwh, and this spot includes all three of the elements that you want us to eliminate.

      Please re-think this one. Good luck in your search, but if you get this one wrong, have a GREAT vacation.

      Just the mutterings of an old man. JDA

          • Peter, we do our best to keep the comments accurate. But we miss some, and with people paraphrasing what Fenn said it gets real murky. We have direct quotes from Fenn that have been construed to mean many different things. There are folks that have created a solution and spent thousands of dollars on what I consider to be a joke from Fenn. The hat contest for example.

            So my advice to you is too listen or read what Fenn has said from the source and in context.

            Just my opinion.

    • Peter, Do you believe what Philip claims? Is this why the reason for you to re-post it?
      This was from Nov. 9th of 2013. We are now 3 years later into the chase with many comments from fenn… And I haven’t seen a quote directly from fenn states; “When Forrest is asked about what the clues are he always starts with “Begin it where warm waters halt”. He says this is the starting point… ”
      Many want to think, believe this to be true, as i’m sure Philip does, yet where is the factual comment directly from fenn?

      You said; “So maybe it’s not a direct quote from Forrest and Phillip is embellishing? I don’t know, but it reads as if hot springs are not the starting point.”

      I have to ask, what is the point for “Philip’s” three year old comment again being posted by you, if it can’t be corroborated?

      • Well look at that, I am actually a ‘victim’ of what just occurred. These past years I have believed what Phillip has posted as being true as it was undisputed, my mistake. A recent post of a solve beginning with a hot spring plus others searchers beginning with a hot spring prompted me to post what I did, including my reference. Wow. Now everything comes to light. I have never began a search with a hot spring because of this, so it’s quite possible I would never be successful with my searches. I must apologize for what happened – sorry folks. Note to self, hot springs are usable – Pete

        • Peter –

          I am sorry that happened to you. Many people post things that are not true – but they think they are true. The only way to avoid that is to think like a detective – – may things in writing by reporters are wrong, wrong, wrong.

          It’s also up to you to decide when FF’s wonderful sense of humor comes out – and he’s joking.

          We really don’t know if WWWH is truly hot springs..(no one will know for sure, until “it” is found)…….but to many here, it certainly seems like it.

          I wish you the very best in your renewed hunting of a good and right solve.

          • Thanks inthechaseto, the entire situation made me feel ‘tarnished’ and I dislike that.

            Moving on, I have been considering Yellowstone Lake as WWWH, also certain glaciers if their melt/runoff ends up being warm waters, or maybe the rain shadow effect. There is also the possibility of warm waters halting something else like people or animal migrations, plus a few other things. Good luck to all – Pete

          • Peter

            You have a mind that thinks outside the box and I think that will be helpful to you.

            What is one of the most mentioned names in the book? Yellowstone. If you where hiding something would you splatter the name all over? He knew most people would go there.

            I am not saying Yellowstone will not be important in your solve ………. but take a look at other states too.

          • I agree with your thoughts on Yellowstone.

            But, remember that FF send to think inside the box where our thoughts flow more freely. Outside the box is probably not helpful imo.

    • Personally, I think Phillip had a valid point.
      I think this has been misunderstood, though.
      I don’t think he was saying that it can’t be a hot spring, he was saying that it has to be a PARTICULAR hot spring, if it is in fact a hot spring.

      And by “particular”, meaning something that can be identified as the WWWH location.
      As opposed to just any ol’ hot springs that happens to fit into a solve.

  51. Peter – as I am sure that you are aware, but if you are not – In the “Cheat Sheet”, under the heading of “Forrest has said, there is the following, “Don’t mess with my poem.”

    You were probably joking about the CHALK but just a bit of advice “Don’t mess with the poem” (sic) JDA

      • I just dont understand the parameters of “mess”. It is just too vague to me. There is not really a true definition to it. So, IMO Peter, I dont think you are messing with it.

        A true standard definition of mess in this case would be, “Do not eat with the poem”. I feel like that is the only true clarification of mess at this point.

        Messing with the poem could be as simple as touching the poem, or handling it. He is basically saying to leave the poem alone, if you take it in the context you are referring to.

        My advice would be to do whatever you want with the poem to find an answer.

        Good Luck.

        • A less sarcastic response might have been – “Don’t ALTER my poem” (sic) Changing words = altering. Changing the order of words, sentences or stanza’s = altering etc.


          • Danker – NO, It is not a quote. It IS in quotes, but it is followed by (sic) – this is an indication that it is NOT an exact quote, but my interpretation of the known quote – “Don’t mess with my poem.” JDA

        • Hammer,

          This is the only cheat sheet quote that bothers me…” don’t mess with my poem”… not that fenn didn’t say it to Dal or that those were not the exact words fenn stated.
          But more to the conversation that was going on at the time. If what I recall correctly from reading about it [ which was years age ], The word halt was involved, and I believe it was about halt being one thing or change it do something else. The point here is…fenn was adamant about not changing what is written down in the poem… How we decide to interpret what anything means is one thing… but apparently changing something is a no no.

          Now the question falls to, can we change a word usage? as fenn gave an example to in a Q&A about the word admire, to mean; respect and high regards… twisting the usage of the word to make it work?

          Which brings me full circle to the topic “WWWH”
          Is the word warm only to be usable as a temperature? whether that be for fishing, or springs, in relation to temperature or is warm usable for it other usages? such as emotions, personality, how close one is, etc.

          Example of personality in a “poem’s poetic manner might be the “calm waters” or “soothing waters” which might imply a hot spring that merges with colder waters to have that “river bathing if best” emotional attachment to what wwh refers to. IF the words that fenn used were deliberate, maybe the reason is not about changing spelling, moving a letter from another to join it, finding another word that rhymes with it… but the intent of the word and it’s exact placement in a line, sentence stanza etc.

          • Seeker, others…. for what its worth, and I don’t know if its messing with the poem or not, but I think Warm Waters means Familiar Waters. OS2

          • To me, determining “What” a word means is what the poem is all about. Once I figure out this special definition can I insert that word into the poem in place of the original, and see how it reads? I would think so. Have I “messed” with the poem, well maybe, but if the “intent” of the poem is not altered by this new word definition, I think I am still within the parameters.

            Just my opinion. JDA

          • Warm = strongly attached, intimate. I think that’s the correct definition for this use of the word. IMO

          • Jake,
            If i understand it correctly, it was about changing a word for a better rhyme.
            Again fenn chose the words deliberately and placed them accordingly. If for example we change walk to talk [ a poor example but just follow me ] we not only change the intended word, but any and all meanings / usages the original word has to offer.

            So lets say, warm is meant as being close… would this indicate the possibility that cold means as Far?
            Or If new and old are to mean past and present… does this indicate what tired and weak might mean?
            Multiple meanings of words and word usages is the primary principle of a poem. This is why I have said; the poem could possibly tell the reader “how” to read itself. If meanings and usages of words don’t connect throughout the poem… the manner of reading might be wrong… hence force fitting occurs. imo. Again… the entire poem over 9 lines to 9 clues.

          • OK Seeker, I will buy some of that.
            I got a warm feeling as I entered the room as all my friends were there.
            You are getting warmer as in close.
            I could see cold as distant which may be far.
            New & old could also be future/present & past.

            I see where you’re going with this & agree with your thoughts here.
            It’s not a stretch considering you are not messing with the poem or the meaning of words but expanding the meanings to other not so popular meanings depending on the context.

            You lost me on “how” to read the poem considering we can’t prove anyone has the correct reading. However, there are many ways to read the poem & the definitions of the words, but I still think it has to flow eloquently & send a clear elegant message to the reader without being awkward.
            This is one of the reasons I try not to use too many unpopular meanings of words.

            Where close waters halt works for me.
            Your effort will be worth the far/distance seems to be covered by,
            Not far, but too far to walk.

          • All,

            If such “warm” waters halt, then they must become something other than “warm”. What kind of barrier physical or otherwise causes waters to change.


          • An example – Ojo Caliente joining the Rio Chama river in New Mexico.

            Ojo Caliente (spanish) = Hot Springs in english – so a Hot (warm) spring ceases to exist when it merges with the Rio Chama river.


          • BB,
            Why does it have to be the only definition used?
            Is there are reason that many usages of a word can not be used at the same time?
            Temperature, whether feeling or even medical, or precise in degrees.
            As in an emotion, feel good.
            As in close physically or close emotionally.
            As in colors or description.
            As in personality, and not always of a person… poetically a place can give off a type of personality.

            That is just a few usages and the tip of the ice burg so to speak. Fenn did say it was difficult but not impossible… as well as… when he wrote the poem he looked up meanings of words. I don’t recall him ever saying he looked at maps… but then again, I could argue he probably knows the area like the back of his hand.

          • JD,

            Yes a confluence can be considered a barrier where one named waters becomes another, but most are still referring to “warm” as a name of or physical temperature of said waters.


          • Liter81 ~ “If such “warm” waters halt, then they must become something other than “warm”.

            WHY? is that a “must”? Does that not automatically force fit a solve?

            Just for example, a different reading, one that pertains to the reason for doing this in the first place… to take it with him.

            Warm waters halt as in death.
            I know..how can that be if we need to travel down a canyon, right? What is a canyon; Simplest definition is shear sides and a lower level.
            Could that refer to a hole / grave? Now warm as in the body and fluids stop makes some sense. “Not far but to far to walk” may refer to one foot in the grave.
            Put in below hoB is the hole.
            Stanza 2 now lines up with stanza on as the reason he went alone… to die.

            So why “Must” waters mean ground waters? Where is the poetic imagination…

          • L1;

            That is why I used the example of Ojo Caliente – Caliente (hot) or warm is a named stream that merges. with a larger body of water. You have both – the warmer waters of the Ojo Caliente ceasing to exist, as well as the name ceasing to exist at the moment of confluence. JDA

          • @Seeker,

            Well I consider the word “halt” to be a boundary, because as I mentioned before waters to not halt, they are fluid. So if the “halt” is in fact a boundary, then when “warm” waters approach and then pass through this boundary (physical or otherwise) they then theoretically become something other than “warm”. I’m not attempting to force fit anything into a “solve” these are all just theories until the chest is found.


          • Liter81,
            Don’ take force fit to be a four letter word. What I mean by that is, when thinking a word can only be used one way… no matter what meaning is used… The reader tends to only read the poem one way and one way only, being in the silo scenario another search used is a good description… of force fit. You only use what circles around that single usage.
            It does matter how many time the poem is read if the reader still thinks of one single mean or theory… that imo is being stuck in the silo.
            But no offense was meant by my post to you or your thoughts…just simply another perspective.

            @ Jake,
            I’m gonna answer the “how” here because it relates to the silo affect.
            I think with fenn deliberate usages of certain words and their placement in the poem… the poem can actually tell us “how” to read it correctly, and not guess that it’s a directional only or anything.
            Each meanings of the words could be indicators and we need to see what those word might be indicating.

            Example; there are many words within the poem that have the meaning / usage of dead or death.
            Gone, halt, end, cease, leave, cold etc. are the first ones that pop in my head. Other combinations of words can also mean dead or death ” in the wood” or “go in peace” for example. Other lines can imply the say, example ” heavy loads and water high” are just two.
            If reading them in full with the entire poem, a different perspective comes about. A different reading of the poem.

            Not just staying with the same premise of directional only and only changing places and only after thousands of hours of needed research, untold amounts of maps, and many hundreds of miles traveled, as well as the need for boats or horses and use a vehicle for traveling the clues. I won’t even get into the money aspect… imo… if a searcher starts whining about how much the wasted on searches, that is their own fault, no one else.

            Yes, I think if we take the words usages and study the meanings [ not always the dictionary definitions]… the poem can actually tell us how to read it.
            Hence; all the information to find the chest is in the poem, comment.

          • Seeker,
            Silo? I’m gonna call it the straightforward affect.
            “the poem can actually tell us “how” to read it correctly”
            Forrest already told us how to read the poem & he wasn’t playing any games.

            You have a very grim read there & that’s fine considering his circumstances at the time. There is also – Begin & new.

            I’m a true believer of using whatever resources you have available to resolve a problem. As long as the resources fit within the guidelines.
            The problem is the poem. If that’s all you want to use to solve this problem, you are not expanding your avenues to help you resolve the problem.

          • Hi JDA – far up above you wrote, “To me, determining “What” a word means is what the poem is all about. Once I figure out this special definition can I insert that word into the poem in place of the original, and see how it reads? I would think so.”

            I think this would be very unwise. Forrest made it quite clear that simply changing the word “halt” to something else was “messing with his poem”. So for instance changing that word to “stop” would not be acceptable. There could very well be more to his word choices than simply the *meanings* of the words (and maintaining the A-B-A-B rhyming). Replacing a word with a reasonable synonym could actually destroy a clue.

            Continuing with your post:
            “Have I “messed” with the poem, well maybe, but if the “intent” of the poem is not altered by this new word definition, I think I am still within the parameters.”

            You can risk this if you like, but it suggests that you think that word meaning/interpretation is all that matters. I can say that if you were to do that in the first stanza, you would erase at least one of my clues.

          • My – My; what a long string.

            Zap. Regarding your comment about word usage/interpretation in Stanza #1. As it happens, I change/interpret only one word in Stanza #1. “AS”. To me AS = Since so: Since I have gone alone in there and with my treasures bold, I can keep my secret where, And hint of riches new and old.” is the way that I read Stanza #1. To me, (but what do I know?), stanza #1 is both a clue and a warning. Since Forrest was alone when he went “in there” (where-ever “in there” is) the searcher should also be alone, or at least not observed.

            By changing AS to SINCE, have I altered the intent? I think not, but it accentuates the “Warning” aspects of the stanza to me.

            But as I said earlier, “But, what do I know? NADA JDA

          • Hi JDA: I don’t think you’re understanding me. While I agree that the most likely connotation of the word “As” in the first stanza is “Since”, I would never risk actually altering the word. There could be more going on than just the interpretation of the meaning of the word. For instance, what if Forrest *needed* a letter A in that exact location? I’m not saying that I believe this to be the case — I’m just giving you an example of how you could get yourself into trouble changing words and thinking that you aren’t doing any harm. You may have kept the meaning of the sentence unchanged, but destroyed an underlying puzzle.

          • Zap;

            I see your point IF you are counting letters or looking for co-ordinates by counting “something”.. I believe that Forrest said something to the effect of don’t use anagrams or ciphers etc. For this reason, I can change words without changing how I solve the poem. NO COUNTING! I know that Charlie, and a few others (You?) rely on numbers – I do not fall into that camp. Who knows? I may be wrong, wrong, wrong. JDA

          • Hi JDA,

            You wrote:

            “I see your point IF you are counting letters or looking for co-ordinates by counting “something”.. I believe that Forrest said something to the effect of don’t use anagrams or ciphers etc.”

            I don’t believe you are being broad enough in your imagination as to what Forrest might have done. There are other simple systems that do not involve anagrams, ciphers, counting, coordinates, or numbers at all — and yet changing words or moving them around could kill some hidden clue(s).

          • Zap;

            What you say may very well be true. Anything is possible. None of us are yet holding the chest. Until someone does find it, I guess that ALL strategies are on the table.

            My strategy is simplicity. KISS with me being Stupid. Straight Forward, point to point simple. Meanings of several words are out of the ordinary, and a bit of imagination is needed, but I have tried to keep it as simple as possible. I have used logic and imagination and LOTS of research and gray matter exercises.

            Only time will tell whose strategy has been correct.

            I respect “Thinkers” like yourself, Seeker, Charlie and Jake. You all bring something to the table and make the conversations lively.

            Y E A for you all. JDA

        • Danker – No I am NOT! Forrest said, “Don’t mess with my poem.” – My interpretation of this quote is, “Don’t ALTER my poem.” JDA

          • JDA,
            Thanks for clarifying that is actually what I thought you were implying, but I believe the (sic) is usually used to indicate when one is quoting exactly what the source stated.

  52. What about a translation of the word, but gives it the same meaning. Instead of English version of the Word, why not use another language like French or Spanish or something like that. It would not be messing with the poem for someone who is native in that language I guess.

  53. Forrest Fenn is an extremely intelligent person. When it comes to “where warm waters halt” we need to think a bit as he would. Perhaps this has been shared before—I’ve just been here a short time. But here goes:

    HALT: 1. The stopping or halting of movement, progress or action.
    2. To walk or proceed lamely (limp)
    3. To stand in perplexity or doubt between courses of action. (waiver)
    4. To display weakness or imperfection. (falter)
    5. A small railroad stop at which there is no station.

    I believe that Forrest may have chosen his words very carefully. The word in the poem may be a combination of definitions. Just an example: a river that has been coursing ahead strongly and “halts” most likely has “limped” along for a while in a smaller form, before it comes to a complete stop.

    But whatever the meaning, it’s fun to consider it, and learn from it. 🙂

  54. Seeker,

    I apologize. I did not mean whaf i stated as the only meaning of WWH. I dont think its that easy. I try to read all your posts. I feel your opinions on this darn poem are spot on. I am clueless on this thing. Maybe i should put away Google maps and replace with a good dictionary and thesaurus!!!


    • No apologize Will,
      None of know anything really. I have seen many comments on the blogs that have given me food for thought and most of those were directional ~ botg only ~ point to point theories. I’ll never say I know what the poem is telling us or claim I have insider info or receiving secret messages… I’m as lost as all the others… I’m only offering logical ideas.

      Maybe I should ask if I can open a Multiple Meaning and Word Usage thread, So we all can add, what we see the words mean to us. Not Solves, but words. { think I just heard Goofy turn the key on the nuke button.. lol }

      • New Mexico Game and Fish defines “warm waters” as follows: ” Warm waters include all streams, lakes, and ponds, except those designated as trout waters”

  55. We are all going to have different meanings for different words, it’s like Seeker said, “Why does it have to be the only definition used”? That’s the thing, the poem only offers ONE definition to the correct meaning. It doesn’t allow guessing if a halt means stop, boundary, whatever. If you try to answer WWWH then you will come up with nada. It’s like looking for the blaze first, you know what f said to that. It should hold true for all the clues.

    The only way to solve for each clue is to solve the poem, entirely. The poem will give you the definitions you are looking for. To try and define what f is saying, in this case, will lead to a very light wallet. Remember, he didn’t count the clues until he was done writing the poem. He could then go back through the poem and see the clues. Same thing for us. Solve the poem, that will relinquish the need to try to guess what definitions to use for which words.

    And again, like Seeker said, anything else is one trying to form-fit a solve. (maybe not those exact words, but you get it). If you don’t believe that, just read your posts, it comes down to people just form-fitting a clue with their solve, instead of solving the entire poem first. We don’t need to force the puzzle pieces to make them fit.

  56. Smaller Warm Creek flows into bigger Soda Creek. They’re both the same temperature… have Warm waters halted because now they’re all Soda Waters?

    ” If it weren’t for my name, I wouldn’t have anything at all.?

    • In my humble opinion you are 100% correct – the name is everything. Smaller Warm Creek ceased to exist as an entity when it joined Soda Creek. So Soda Creek it will be until it joins a bigger body of water like the Rio Grande, then Soda creek will cease to exist as an entity.

      Regardless of temperature, Smaller Warm Creek was the wwwh, “And take it in the canyon down” on Soda Creek, “Not far, but too far to walk” until you “Put in below the home of Brown.”

      Just my opinion. JDA

  57. So, if WWWH agrees with the NM State Wildlife site, the ONLY waters that are NOT warm are where Trout are found. The site goes on to say that one spot for the Brown Trout is the Rio Grande Gorge area. I still think HOB refers to a person and not a fish, but I cannot discount the significance of the state’s own definition.

  58. WWWH… Water comes in three states: gaseous (hot), liquid (warm), and solid (cold). Today, warm water fell in Los Alamos, NM in the storm of rain. Across the Rio Grande, just a few miles north of where we celebrated at Fennboree, cold water fell in the form of hail, sleet or snow. I know this because I just saw it with my own two eyes. Beware, the season is starting to be cold. Be prepared for some pretty cold nights in the mountains north of Santa Fe. Warm water has been halting on a regular basis lately… IMO. Stay safe.

    • Slurbs,

      Just for clarification, water is a singular element. It only comes in solid or liquid form. The temperature of water is not relative to the form but the atmosphere in which it lives. What your calling “gaseous” is still liquid. An example would be from your statement above “gaseous” (hot). Well when you see your breath in freezing cold climate its still gaseous. But it is again still liquid H2O is only sold or liquid and again, the climate in which it lives determines the state by which it exists. Water is always inherently liquid. As the elemental chart states.

      • I see that I have not pulled the wool over your eyes TSleepyHB. I really just wanted to say that so.e mountains north of Santa Fe are now covered by snow, or what looks like snow. I didn’t want to allude to knowing WWWH.

  59. Clarification to above…..as I know how technical everyone is……water is always, like the elemental chart …..liquid……the environment chooses the form….it is not naturally anything but liquid.

    • TSHB,
      Are we getting too technical? Condensation is water, humidity is measurement of water in the air ~ water vapor. Frozen water is still water, even in air temperature below 32 degrees frozen water can melt with sunlight. Water vapor condenses to for rain or liquid water. While all this technical crap is true … water is still water. Is this the reason for ‘warm’ to be known? Call it the Goldilocks zone if you will, warm waters as liquid flowing / moveable water.

    • TSHB-“water is always like the elemental chart…liquid”. What are you muddling on about? H20 is found, “naturally” in any of its three various states on Earth: liquid, solid and gas. H2O is not an element, it’s a chemical compound and obviously isn’t on the periodic table.

      • Thank you, reiteri — I was going to post something similar. All molecules (whether elements or compounds) have a 3-phase diagram, and under the right temperature and pressure can manifest as solid, liquid or gas. Water is special on earth in that it appears naturally in all three of these forms (unlike, say, carbon dioxide or mercury or gold). To say that water, naturally, is a liquid is incorrect. The liquid phase is the least common of the three for any substance.

  60. All,

    Posted on August 12, 2014 by Jenny Kile

    Someone unfamiliar with your poem receives a message that says “meet me where warm waters halt, somewhere in the mountains north of Santa Fe”. Would they be able to work out where to go? If they can’t, would they need the whole poem, another stanza, or just a line or word to help them on their way? ~Phil Bayman

    There are a few words in the poem that are not useful in finding the treasure Phil, but it is risky to discount any of them. You over simplify the clues. There are many places in the Rocky Mountains where warm waters halt, and nearly all of them are north of Santa Fe. Look at the big picture, there are no short cuts. f


    The whole problem with this is Phil over simplified the clue by omitting the words “begin it” from the line and thus left out key information in determining the correct starting point, and that is why Forrest answered in the way he did. IMO without the words “begin it” one cannot determine which of the many places WWWH in Rocky Mountains is the correct one.

    To over simplify and to short cut are synonymous.

    This theory mirrors my opinion that “Put in” is more important than the “home of Brown” as you solve the poem, because “Put in” is another halt direction change from the canyon down and too many searchers are going down the canyon looking for Mr. Brown trout and passing up a whole lotta put in’s.


    • L1 –
      I’ve been away for a while and not joining the fray, but I have been keeping an eye from a distance. Saw your post. You are right on with this.

      In my onion, of course. ‘-)

  61. Begin it where the warm waters halt……..

    most people seem to think of this being a flowing stream, river, or hot spring type of water halting, what thoughts are there on the following examples?


    where do the warm waters of the Pacific halt…….?

    or the warm waters of the Gulf of Mexico halt…..?

    How would you apply these to a river, stream, hot spring, or lake?

      • the warm waters of the Pacific stop at the continental divide.

        the warm waters of the gulf stop basically at the eastern base of the Rocky Mountains.

        500,000 years ago the Gulf of Mexico was as far north as Montana and South Dakota regions.

        both warm waters have left fossils in the layers of rock in the Rockies.

        Just possibilities???????

        With the above the Great Basin could be the canyon down to take???

        All part of the big picture.

    • My first thought upon reading these questions was: “In clouds?” Don’t know how that is helpful however.

      Are you referring to the water “halting” into a lake or reservoir?

  62. Question: Where do warm waters halt? Answer: when you are going upstream into a shaded canyon or when a cooler water enters the stream you are in.

  63. Searchers, I stumbled onto something today that could be of some significance.

    First, I believe Forrest has talked about the little girl from India for a reason. It is a big hint. The hint is that the first two clues are big. You can see on a map of US rockies!

    Can you identify a certain stream, lake or hot spring? No, only a couple you can see on a large map of the rockies. Forrest says there are many places that wwh and we should look at the big picture here. So how can it be a stream that turns warm or cold? Can you see that on a map of US rockies? No.

    So what is big and identifiable on map of US rockies? And there are many?

    Ranges! Mountain ranges! The divide can be considered wwh, but where? We have to identify the range. Now this is what I stumbled onto this morning.

    Range definition is a maximum extent or distance that can be covered! That is exactly what too far to walk is!!!!! Too far to walk is range! I have always wondered what too far to walk is, but there it is right in the definition of range! Look up range!! It has a root meaning of line, row or rank. Example is a chain or line of mountains. Mountain range.

    To figure out wwh, I believe you need to use the whole sentence. From begin it to walk.

    A range is also to wander freely or roam. Like Forrests hints he has given us such as a hobo, bum and gypsy.

    Wait, it only gets better. A range is also a range of function in mathematics f(x) which is also an image(mirror)!!!!

    I have changed my thought process this morning to include Mountain range in my first two clue solve, this only makes sense to me. Now what range?

    What do other searchers think?

    • DPT, just basing my opinion here off of what Forrest said, but I believe wholeheartedly that you, as well as any one else, can find the treasure location from home, with the poem, book, and google earth/maps. The first two clues statement was just what he picked for the girl IN India. He could of made it the first 5 clues or the first clue, it would mean the same… because she is still in India. But if you unable to accept that kind of thought process, then just accept these quotes from Forrest himself:

      “The person who finds the treasure will have studied the poem over and over, and thought, and analyzed and moved with confidence. Nothing about it will be accidental” – f

      “I warned that the path would not be direct for those who had no certainty of the location beforehand, but sure for the one who did.” f

      If you could only figure out what you believe the first 2 clues are, at home, would you have the certainty and the confidence to go get it? I sure as heck wouldn’t 😉
      Sounds to me like you’ll know where it is before you book your flight or get in your car to go get it. Good luck with your Chase

    • That really is interesting DPT! I think the range is identified in the line “there’ll be no paddle up your creek”. I’ve been looking at this range for a couple of weeks now. I feel sure this phrase identifies a specific range. Sorry, can’t post the name of it here. But, see what you come up with using “no paddle up your creek”.

      • Thanks Puzzled, so you have studied range? I just started today and it makes ALOT of sense to me. For example, range is a bounds or boundary, I never saw it that way. It is also is a line or chain or rope. Is teachers with ropes, the drawing, a depiction of a mountain range? See what I mean? Does that story describe the range? I will have to reread!

        Also , interesting about no paddle up your creek. I have been thinking for 15 minutes, I think I need to think for at least 30:-)

        • DPT- I think you first need to figure out WWWH. If you don’t have that, “no paddle up your creek” won’t make sense. Interesting that you mention “teachers with ropes”. I believe it clearly describes “no paddle up your creek”, but as I said, you need to know WWWH. Defining “but” and “bold” might help.

          • I couldn’t agree more Puzzled. I too believe that I need to figure out wwh. I know the area it is in and have found the hint in the book, but need to figure out where? Where is important! And I will give you a hint puzzled on the area. JD Salinger death.

    • DPT,

      I would add, have a look see at parent range definition. The sibling mountain range of a larger mountainous area is sometimes refer to as the “child” range. [ a little effort to find this will be needed ] but falls in line with the thought process you explained.

      On question… if the first clue or first two clues are of a large area… the third or later clue should be an exact location? or am I reading your thoughts wrong.
      I ask only for the fact, the first two clues did put searchers in the correct location on site. An area where they did walk pass the other seven clues.

      My question is; [ like you explained the full sentence from begin to walk] Is it possible that even more of the poem might be part of the first clue[s]? Even stanza 2 and 3 combined?

  64. Hi seeker, what I think is the first clue is big, like a mountain range and then the second clue is important to get you to the correct area. As Forrest has said more than a few have correctly identified the first clue. Paraphrase

    Now he has said that a few have answered the first 2 clues and then walked right on past. Paraphrase

    Forrest also said searchers were within 200 and 500 feet and probably didn’t know why they were there.

    These all tell me the first couple clues are important to understanding why you are there and interpreting them correctly. And the second clue more than likely put them in the area. Getting that correct puts you in the next select group of searchers who were close.

    Sorry, now to your question. Yes, I think anything is a possibility. No one knows for sure until they have the chest in hand. My opinion is that yes, other stanzas of the poem can give hints to figuring out the clues.

    For example, look quickly down your quest to cease helps you figure out the place and is an action.

    I like your thought process seeker, keep it up and hopefully one of us will find it soon!

    • DPT,
      You answered my question in part saying: ” My opinion is that yes, other stanzas of the poem can give hints to figuring out the clues.”

      I want to be clear on my wording to my question, because I’m interested to ask you it because of your thought process.
      Could stanzas 2 and 3 be the sum of a single clue in your thought process? It doesn’t matter if it’s a large or small location. Just, can you rationalize ‘many’ clues to be ‘one’ specific location / point.

      The question isn’t about your solve, but the line of thinking you presented is similar to many of my thoughts… lol… trust me when I say, we might be in the company of only a few that may think about the poem in this manner.

      • Seeker, thanks for clarifying.
        Interesting you say point!
        My thought process does include the sum of 3 stanzas being a singular location. Yes.

        I always leave my options open though in case my perception is incorrect, so I also utilize the action and the clue also in different thinking.

        I won’t know which is correct until it’s found.

        Seeker, I also use a third method. First three stanzas are the clues and last 3 stanzas the hints to the clues in the first three stanzas.

        By the way, you are good seeker! I didn’t know anyone else was approaching it that way. Great thinking!

  65. Random thoughts . . .

    Warm = bold, difficult, white, comfortable, relaxing, peaceful
    White = weak
    Tired = difficult, frantic, gone, watery.

    where white waters halt ?
    I’ve done it tired and now I’m warm ?

    I am in no way implying that f shot any white-water rapids. That is foolish to me.
    I am simply playing with words.

  66. WWWH in combination with 11 other direct poem allusions to the affects of fishing and boating and carrying a canoe means that we are traveling upstream at this point until we PUT IN. Warm water halts when you are traveling upstream. Blue ribbon trout are typically caught near warm water but not in it because they quickly return to cooler waters they prefer. If a trout cannot return to cool water it becomes lethargic until the time of the day when water is typically coolest and sunlit (dawn or dusk). Read “HOW TO CATCH FISH ANYWHERE ANYTIME.

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