Odds n Ends About Fenn’s Treasure Hunt…Part Sixteen


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622 thoughts on “Odds n Ends About Fenn’s Treasure Hunt…Part Sixteen

  1. First? and Second? and Third? , oh my!

    I phrased it like that on purpose. It’s an important smallish hint about
    how to solve the poem. Please trust me on this. Here’s another little
    “nudge” in this direction:

    For those who are so much into numbers that they can’t think without
    using numbers (my solve doesn’t use ANY!), if you think about how
    old FF is, then you should be able to figure out what year he was born.
    Got that? Good!

    Now, please think about what country he was living in when he was a
    child. And please think about what American culture (books, movies,
    school, church, sports, fashion, fads, etc.) he’d have known about
    wen he was a child . . . say, between the ages of 8 and 10.
    Got that? Good!

    Now you should have some idea of how a child of that age would think
    in those days. It should help interpret the clues.

    I expect to (in less than a week) test my solve. I will promptly report the
    results (if my solve was valid, and I was successful in finding the TC)
    to FF by regular mail. It’s more private than e-mail.

    The above is just my opinion. Yours may differ.

    Good luck to all searchers. Please be safe.

  2. i too… am leaving this week , hopefully we aren’t in the same location..hahaha

    • I know JDA’s search area and state, what might be yours? I’m hopefully will be heading out at the end of Sept. for a final search this year. All depends on my wife’s retiring date. I like the pueblo area of New Mexico and the Taos area. Both keep us busy but worst of all is my wife’s shoe addiction. New Mexico has a lot of shoes that she likes…IMHO

      • Timothy;

        I KNOW that you know my search state, I doubt that you know my search area. email me at SculptorJDA at AOL dot com if you want to see if you are correct. I have given NO clues as to my location. Someone suggested the Woods River area – my response was that I would neither confirm or deny it – NO hint here. TRY to STAY SAFE on your quest.


  3. I think it’s weird when Forrest mentioned riding his bike to where he wanted to carry out plan A & throw the bike in water high.
    Then he also mentions that the one that will find the treasure will be the one that walked to it.
    This is paraphrasing what he actually said but makes me wonder which statement holds more weight.

    • Jake;

      It tells me that a searcher can either walk or ride a (mountain) bike to the site – Searcher’s choice. I know I
      could do either – IF I were a year or two younger.


      • Well JD,
        I think you would still have to take another type of motorized vehicle to get close enough to the site, then bike the rest of the way. But your other vehicle will be found abandon in a few days unless he would have driven it deep into the woods & even then there would be a bulls-eye area in which to search for him when found.
        How far can you ride a bike at his age?

        • I totally agree, Drive a “Sedan” to the parking area, walk or ride the bike 1/2 mile one and 1/2 times – throw the bike over the waterfall, take his last breath, and throw himself over the waterfall – If that is what he wanted to do. Sure glad that things did not work out that way. Sure glad he later made the trip twice, went back to his sedan and drove back to the car rental place, or back home, or somewhere.

          Happy 86th Forrest.


          • Oh, I almost forgot.
            Your heading out to your area tomorrow?
            Maybe you can pull a rabbit out of your hole & give Forrest his bracelet back for a nice birthday gift.

          • Not leaving tomorrow, but sometime in next two weeks – having problems getting everyone’s scheduled to agree. And yes, I can hope. JDA

        • Jake,
          Even though the original plan was to die there…he ruined that plan by recovering. The original poem was change removing at least one line…take the chest and leave my bones… so couldn’t we assume the mode of transportation in the original plan was changed as well?

          He wouldn’t need to leave anything behind, because he still was leaving.

          The plan changed… giving fenn many years to replan the in and out.

          For all we know he could have planned to sky dive in.
          We do know that when he did go to hide the chest… he made two trip and he stated he walked less than a few miles.

          But hey, if you guys want to strap a boat to a bike on the back of a 4×4 with shovels and pickaxe, one link of chain, with fishing gear and lunch…. that’s fine by me.

          • Sure, we know all that Seeker.
            I am just wondering about the validity of the statements & why does he tell us we need to walk to the chest.
            I couldn’t find the quote as usual but if true something tells me there is no other way to get there except to walk which also tells me you may have to climb a bit or forge a creek.
            You left out the snorkel gear… O-OJ

          • Jake~ “I am just wondering about the validity of the statements & why does he tell us we need to walk to the chest.”

            Are talking about when fenn actually went to hide the chest or his other fundamental guide comment;
            “If you can’t make two trips from your car to your solve in several hours, then don’t go.”

            Either way… fenn stated he walked less than a few miles when he hid the chest, and tells us not to go if we can make two trips from our car [ vehicle ] in several hours. While we don’t have all the exact details [ and why would we ] do these comments seem we need any kind of transportation from our vehicles to finalize our solves [ to the chest ] other than walking?

            Lets add the comment that a three year old girl would need some assist to get to the chest… or other comments about walking right to the chest [ too many to list ] or even searcher at the first two clues ~walked pass the other seven clues and the chest.

            Common sense seems to say, walking is all we need to do.

          • Seeker,
            I’m aware of all those comments.
            I thought he stated that the one that finds the chest will have walked to it.
            I can’t find that quote & maybe my mind twisted some other quote to make it match.
            Thanks anyway, I will keep looking, listening & reading to find it.

          • Hi Jake — here’s the full quote about walking to the chest: “I would like to reiterate: Please go back to the poem and look at maps for your answers. Not every noun in TTOTC is a hint. If you can’t solve the first clue you should not spend your money searching. My guess is that the person who is successful will very quietly solve the clues and walk to the treasure with a smile on their face.”

          • Thank you Zap!
            That’s the one I was thinking of.
            I will copy & paste that one so I don’t forget.
            I think the importance in this statement is “walk”.
            So we have “too far too walk” in the beginning or middle & at the end where the treasure is we have to “walk”.
            Along with: “I warned that the path would not be direct for those who had no certainty of the location beforehand, but sure for the one who did.”

            This tells me you will have to walk to the treasure at the end. No 4 wheeler, horse, copter drop, swimming, running, etc….

          • “…Bloggers have quoted me as saying that a child could walk up to the treasure. I don’t think that’s an accurate quote because a three year old girl would have a problem without some help. Remember, I was about 80 when I hid the chest, and had to make two trips.f”

            Jake, At this moment… this is the only comment that mentions the word walk when it comes to us [ searchers ]. Although other comments imply walking as I posted prior.

            If a three yr.old girl would have problems, Yet, with some help can do it. and fenn repeating he made two trips [ from his car ] This just seems walking is all that is needed. I would also add IMO, a water location seems to be a stretch for the location of the chest if the implication is, a three year old girl with “some help” can get to it.

            There are almost 6 years of comments, and while some have changed slightly and other added with more info. The basics seem to remain consistent. I just think before one heads out to try out there solve… they would consider this info seriously before renting quads, and boats, or drive more than 1/2 their solve.

            I mean, the many first two clues comments have the searchers “walking” pass the seven remaining clues and the chest. Maybe it’s just me… I don’t see what other do… driving, boating, wading naked through a marsh ~ Twice ~ In a solve.

          • Seeker said, ” I don’t see what others do… driving, boating, wading naked through a marsh ~ Twice ~ In a solve”

            Let me just say that if any of you are considering wading naked in a marsh twice, please don’t document your journey! We do not want to see that!

            Happy Searching Everyone!

          • Zap, Thanks… I was looking for that comment as well. But I got lazy… maybe i should start a folder or something.

    • Morn’n Jake,
      I kind of remember f saying that, can you refresh where he might have said it?
      Timothy A

  4. “What if” some of the most influential people in Forrest’s life plays a part in the area location in which the poem clues will take you. Not that they all were physically there, maybe they could of influenced history there, maybe there are places related within this area pertaining to the enjoyment Forrest shared with them in other times in his life. A place to relax and enjoy, maybe heal and this place could provide all that he needed for doing that. Maybe “indulgence” is hidden close to this area of memories. Just food for thought. Bur

    • Bur, Maybe this will help… I’m not sure if this was what you meant by …”influential people in Forrest’s life plays a part in the area location in which the poem clues will take you. Not that they all were physically there, maybe they could of influenced history there,…”

      “Mr. Fenn, Is there any level of knowledge of US history that is required to properly interpret the clues in your poem. ~Steve R
      No Steve R,
      The only requirement is that you figure out what the clues mean. But a comprehensive knowledge of geography might help.ff”

      • Seeker,

        You just hit on something else that is pretty significant. Now you just threw a quote out there that implies FF is dismissing that thought but if you notice..FF did NOT answer the question Bur is leading to. He redirected you to “comprehensive knowledge of geography” which is a given if we are mapping out a location.


        Again you are on to something…..Something or someone might have influenced FF to the location where he wanted to rest his bones so to speak…He began this poem in the 80’s and worked on it for years right?

        I can tell you right now there is a huge dodge FF gave that will give you a huge clue to a solid solution…Review his interviews and you might find something.

      • Seeker – I agree with Bur and Jon…….

        Did you hear him say “no” in that answer…..he simply avoided the question and why would he do that? It’s huge…………

        • Ok, so I see a question about any level of US history to interpret the clues … with a direct No to the question….and a helpful addition of knowledge of geography might help.

          That’s like saying, if I put butter on my toast will it be healthier? No, but jam might help.
          And you put butter on it anyways.

          I put the quote up because of the history part of the comment… I don’t even know if bur was referring to recent history or not. Just thought it was a good refresher.

          This reminds me of the first two clues discussion, that fenn did mean just searcher he meant tourist as well….sure why not.

          • Lifesablaze,
            I like what you found there, and I think Forrest might have come across George Dabich or Bob Edger at some time with all the Paleo inventory and their association with Harold Mcracken along with being the principal excavators of the ” Mummy Cave”. This was a interesting read and just maybe there’s more to this. Bob Edger’s life was definitely a very interesting one to say the least. Thanks for the post. Bur

      • Seeker,
        Yes this qoute has been around for sometime. I’m not saying that you have to understand history first for the clue solves, but when you start to investigate the geography of the area history does play a factor in the solve. Some who help create history there both “new and old” could also be the people who helped in influencing Forrest life. Even more research and you will find that some of what the area holds can also related to even more people and also statements (hints) in TTOTC book. Seeker, I know your not a TTOTC fan, and yes the poem clues can be solved on there own if you know where to start. But there is more to this area then just where indulgence is hidden and I believe this is why he chose this area as his special place. This is a place that holds memories of people from all over the world for Forrest if that makes sense, does to me.

        Missouri Jon, if you have consider this then read the TTOTC Book over and over and then look at the scrapbooks , and oldsantafetradingco pages and other peoples blogs where Forrest talked about people with high praise. IMO. Bur

        • I really wish folks would stop thinking I don’t think the book is helpful. I have said… I don’t believe the book has clues needed. Other wise the comment of all the information is in the poem is very misleading.

          I’ll add that I have had many discussions about how the poem could possibly refer back to the book.

          With that said… bur, the study of geography is about the surface of the land and it inhabitants that have a direct influence.

          If those folks you talk about in history influenced fenn that’s one thing.. if the influence is geography I would say we’re treading on thin ice… I could hypothetically agree to an overall major change to the lands… one example would be… removing a very large section of a mountain range that affect the natural environment on a permanent basis.

          To dismiss the quote I offered as nothing more than hoping it’s a none answer to a direct question is really stretching it to be a force fit to a solve.

          We agree to disagree on this one.

          • Seeker- that’s fine to disagree. I have learned to keep a open mind when researching all involved in this chase. I tended to force fit many things into my solves in the past and jumped out of the box a time or two as many who have been in this chase for a period of time have also done.
            In this last solve I let the poem direct the solve direction without any interference from quotes, books or hints of any kind. Everything in my statements above came after that fact, and the hints, that I will call them, helped defined the general area (Forrest special place) not the location of the chest. Thanks for your input. Bur

          • Bur,

            We all have tried just about every angle… just wondering though, how does the poem refers to another person and or history?

            Serious question… no put down.

          • Seeker,
            As far as people I’m referring to, only one with ties there, who may have originally brought Forrest to this place. Because that person, not alive when Forrest went there, made a big impact on Forrest in his early years and has through out (not his Dad or Skippy). It is also my belief he has met another there, someone highly admired, and maybe this why the statement “two can keep a secret if one is dead” has been said.
            So to answer your question the people whom I talk about have nothing to do with clue solves just the area, but after research history does in a few clues, and if I said why it would give to much away. Bur

        • I believe “Grandma” from the TTOTC stories is one of the most influential people in Fenn’s life. I think most people aren’t understanding what Fenn was really talking about in the “Grandma” stories. She isn’t just a kind old lady that bakes pies. There is more to “Grandma”. What was that quote we were all talking about a few months ago. Fenn said, “she would be proud”. I think he was talking about “Grandma”.

          • Puzzled, I’ve thought that since my first reading, but not limited to just the relative-grandmas. More likely, a reference to older women who extended some acceptance or kindness that perhaps was lacking elsewhere.

            Also early on, I also thought the old women and grandma’s might be a reference (in some of the stories) to a comfortable or familiar meadow place since ‘grama’ is a type of wild grass.

        • Bur,

          Sorry for the late comment on your post, but I do admire your thought process. I too have, after many,many solves, decided to look at things a little differently. I like your historical tie-in, as I do agree a persons history ties into the whole of their life.
          As far as the book, TTOTC, while i agree that there are some subtle gems in their that can play into or support a correct solve, I don’t feel altogether that the book is absolutely necessary in the solve.
          Let me follow up with, I have and have read the book many times.
          Regarding your historical tie-in, I am in complete agreement. I have been on the same trend for about six months now and have had some interesting results. My current solve based in this methodology is proving the best results I have had to date. Good luck on your search!


          • TSHB,
            Thanks, I want to say that there is more to “Forrest’s special place” then the people I’ve referred to and the historical tie-ins. Forrest with all his interviews, answered questions, scrapbook comments, and weekly words has been throwing out a few hints about this area. Again IMO if you don’t have the poem solved these hints mean nothing. There is one illustration in the TTOTC book in particular that if understood it helps identify the area the chest itself is hidden. Wish I could say more, and maybe I will later on, but to much info at one time and the lurkers living close by this area might figure things out.
            I’m hoping I will get to this area again to search sometime in the future and not just have a recon day mission under y belt. There is a twist with one clue that I believe will keep it safe until I have that chance.
            Good luck in your search. Bur

          • TSHB,
            I did reply to your post but for some reason it got removed of never posted. I gave a little more info but maybe I didn’t say IMO enough. Thanks for your post and maybe it will post later. Good luck in your search. Bur

          • Heres one. Kit Carson. They serve the power to the Taos area. “Begin it where warm watters halt”….(power lines).
            “And tae’ Kit in the canyon down”. As far as the subtle gems….Absolutely. My solve involves play on words. Wit. At my spot is an old gate with an old tire around its hinges. It is a tired ole gate. TE A with OLGA = A OLE GATE, “a tired old gate”. “I’ve done it tired and now I’m weak”. That gate used to swing and its likely that so did Peggy and Forrest. Swing music and big bands were big in the 50s. Am I correct Dal that that would have been the era they dated?
            Kinda give a new thought on “Brave and in the wood” , meaning wooden dance floor. It has always scared me to death!

    • Bur,

      You are very close to what I first discovered a year and a half ago : A .. shall we say .. ‘special’ relationship .. between his memories, his stories (which may or may not be 100% accurate), the people from his past that he reminisces about .. and the possible locations of (at least some of) the Nine Clues Poetica ..

      But be careful not to jump the Fonzarelli Shark too quickly: you have to carefully interpret exactly what people were influential to Fenn and why .. ..


      • Windy,
        It’s subtle and sublime.

        It’s also Namor, (Roman backwards) from the Golden Age of Marvel Comics.

        That was a fun and interesting rabbit hole, because I’m a nerd. Lol.

  5. Here’s an odd end and just a bit of fun. If anyone wants to while away a few hours between searches, I have a challenge for you. I posted a thirty-minute video here:
    which was taken, unedited, from my Subaru Outback on two separate trips. Can you pinpoint:

    1. The coordinates (degrees, minutes, seconds) of the creamy-colored farmhouse to the left of the car at around 6′ 37″;


    2. Where my wife moves some rocks off the trail at around 27’+?

    It’s a tough one (particularly the second clip), but if you analyze the terrain and the way the road winds, and consider the clues below, you should be able to narrow it down. The winner is the person who provides the correct two sets of coordinates (within 5 seconds lat/long). And while a few people may know one or other of these trails, I doubt they’d know both.

    The Prize: (wait for it… this is all I could come up with!) The name of the town where my Chase quest begins (it may be right, it may be wrong, but if you’re curious, just give it a go!).

    1. “Honey, everyone knows giant slugs need to take five twice a day!”
    2. When Inportunus arrived to take office, was he in the wood in the wood?
    3. Both trails are in Wyoming.

    You can send me your answer here: voxhumana at hotmail dot co dot uk (I’ll hold it open for a few weeks, and let everyone know if there’s a winner). Site owners/mods are verboten!!!

  6. Could the starting spot be a forest?
    A forest offering riches new and old. hmmm
    I hate when new ideas distract you from old ones.
    Have a great day everyone!

  7. IMO…a three year old girl would need help PUTTING IN below the Home of Brown (in a canoe) to non-meekly cross the stream to shorten the distance walked and to get back to the vehicle in time to quickly recross the stream and do it all again before returning to the vehicle before the end of the day.

    • If you don’t have a three year old with you, do you still need a canoe?
      The comment about the three year old girl was a “correction” to a searchers’ misquoting fenn about walking up to the chest. I’m not to sure fenn meant the entire solve when correcting that searcher’s comment.

  8. I like Seeker and Bur…Bur you made very good points…You two are like McEnroe and Borg….Im just trying to keep everyone’s avenue open to help them get to a good resolve. & Bur I think i have it all figured out just gathering the opportunity to head out to my location…thanks guys

  9. OK, this is how it went down: Forrest was 80 when he hid the chest, but inside he feels 13 right?

    The day of the interring of Indulgence. An older man and small boy observe as a sedan slowly pulls up. An old codger puts on what looks to be a quite heavy back-pack.

    He then removes an object from the trunk. “What in blue blazes?” says the older man to his son, “that old feller is using a pogo stick to make his way down to the creek. I had one ‘a them back in 1943 as I recall. I was 13 then.

    “Oh, he fell down” said the boy “he’s walking now. But he looks pretty upset”.

    “He’s thirteen at heart son. He wishes his body still matched his mind. But the important thing is he’s finishing what he started son. He’s made two trips now, even with that skinned knee from the pogo stick attempt. He seems very determined”.

    The two walked back to their campsite a mile or so away, with no idea that an old man had just stashed a million dollar chest about 200 feet from the river.

    And that is how the whole thing happened.

  10. One thing I will help you with Seeker….check the history of each state and see which closely applies to the poem….US History is after states formulated…these grounds were here long before that..Forget the books for now…TOTC has two clues in it….TFTW…has two clues in it as well….there may be more but the basic minimum needed to find the treasure…As far as the person of influence, that will come the further you get into your resolve…

    • Help me out here a little Jon, what time period are you wanting examined?
      I’m trying to follow you on what you mean by “States formulated”
      Are you talking the first states involve as the US?… all 50 states? or just when the four remaining stated became part of the union?
      Heck part of NM was sold to Colorado before CO became a state… it actually kicked started the process. prior to that TX territory was in the same location as then NM and now CO.

      But if your talking territories… dang that is a whole lot of history. I mean, at one time TN went right to the Atlantic ocean. If we go back to the Louisianan purchase, a lot of those territories were completely different and change was rapid. A little more info would be helpful.

      • No…no …no…just the states involved with the treasure map….and don’t concentrate on an era just check how they were formed….You just might find your beginning…which will put you in the right area.

  11. Let me take it one step further to get your thinking juices flowing. You are diagnosed with an illness that could take your life soon…so you set a will or what do you do with your wealth…I could give back to the common man by leaving a treasure & I could give back to the states that have been so good to me. Each state FF has mentioned has played a part in his life so how can I help share these experiences with others? I could donate 1 to 3 million dollars to certain places I’m affiliated with or I can generate attention by hiding 1 to 3 million dollars in a chest, create a poem of clues, and the publicity from that will cover all the states involved in a search creating tourism for all…then I will create two books to combat this illness that took me out of this world with all proceeds going to beat this horrible disease etc. There I have covered all my bases in my remaining days….So first you have figure out which state he may have vested in the most or needed the tourism the most….Who would he want to have a chance to most discover this wealth….maybe a person from the poorest district in this state I have hidden the wealth??? WWWH?…There I have help the common man also….good luck! That is how you think outside the box…then you have to come back in the box…

  12. Here are probable clues in poem which likely point to the use of a flotation device such as a lapwood canoe like the ones used for thousands of years in north america…
    1…Where warm waters halt (a trophy fishing term)…2…too far to walk (so use another mode of transport to shorten the path)…3…PUT IN BELOW (a popular canoing term)…4…Home of Brown (type of trophy trout)…5…can’t PADDLE UP YOUR CREEK (time to stop paddling)…

    Other clues which might also point to use of a canoe…1…Heavy loads…2…Waters High…3…In the Wood

  13. Hi, does anyone have a link to forests story he told of going into a cave one time and finding an ancient broken pot and some bones (I think)?
    Sorry I can’t remember much else about it.
    Maybe it even has a page here but Ive searched without success.

    Thanks in advance!

    • Danny Boy;

      Is it possible that you are thinking of the story of “Charmay and me” on page 214 of TFTW? There is a picture on page 218 of a woman lifting a stone to reveal a hidden pot in the ground – a pot that contained corn kernels and roly poly bugs.

      Not a cave, but possibly what you are looking for.

      Happy Hunting – JDA

    • That’s the one SL.
      Thankee sai !

      Where are these stored, how did you search for it?

      • Danny-boy,

        Glad to be of help!

        There’s a “Search the Blog” feature at the top of the page; right side. Hopefully, you will be able to obtain information which can be useful to you. (Unfortunately, this convenient feature has been INOP for me since day one).

        Research has always been enjoyable for me, and the process stimulating.

        Enjoy your search,


  14. Flywater,
    “The book now occupies a different shelf, closer to my view, for it holds some memories most dear….”
    Now, where did I hear that word?
    “Put it at a very secret & a very dear place, private & I walked back to my car smiling.”

        • Interesting article on montana fly fishing. And a special spot.


        • Jake,

          Thee are 2 versions of “Flywater.”

          First: 1942 – Flywater

          Second: *2010 – Flywater: “Fly Fishing Rivers of the West” with Forward by Tom Brokaw.

          I’m inclined to think that the original 1942 version is favored, and the one that Forrest could be referring to.


          • Thanks SL,
            That makes sense. I do not think it would be the 2010 version.
            Now, if I could get a hold of the 1942 printing…..
            I know there was someone on here that had it or read it, I forget who.
            Would like to know all the spots listed in this version.

          • @SL & Jake re: Flywater editions, I had my local library request ship me the original edition via some sort of loan thing deal they have with other towns….there’s some differences for sure. I never really hit on any major clues out of either though, as I recall NM isn’t even mentioned in one of the editions….IMO.

          • Jake:


            First Edition of FIYWATER – 1994

            By Grant McClintock, Mike Garrett, Jack Hemingway (Illustrator)


          • Cholly,

            I’ve a list of the bodies of water mentioned in the first edition, (1994), and don’t see a mention of NM either.

            I can post the looooong list if others are interested. (Jake?)

            Appreciate your info, Cholly!


          • FF has said repeatedly (or may it’s just been repeated a thousand times on the blogs), everything you need is in the poem. Why do people insist upon trying to solve the poem using other sources? I think the book is only there to confirm that you have found the right answers in the POEM. All we need is the poem!

          • Hi Puzzled — you wrote, “FF has said repeatedly (or may it’s just been repeated a thousand times on the blogs), everything you need is in the poem. Why do people insist upon trying to solve the poem using other sources? I think the book is only there to confirm that you have found the right answers in the POEM. All we need is the poem!”

            Not quite. He said you need the poem AND a map. The clues are in the poem. The answers are to be found on maps. Here’s Fenn’s quote from June 2014 — probably one of the most important things he has written to assist searchers:

            “I would like to reiterate: Please go back to the poem and look at maps for your answers. Not every noun in TTOTC is a hint. If you can’t solve the first clue you should not spend your money searching. My guess is that the person who is successful will very quietly solve the clues and walk to the treasure with a smile on their face.”

          • Puzzled;

            Forrest has said, “Here is what I would do. Read my book in a normal manner. Then read the poem over and over and over, slowly – thinking. Then read my book again, this time looking for subtle hints that will help solve the clues.” f.

            Not sure he could make it any plainer. Add to that Zap’s qiote – ““I would like to reiterate: Please go back to the poem and look at maps for your answers. Not every noun in TTOTC is a hint. If you can’t solve the first clue you should not spend your money searching. My guess is that the person who is successful will very quietly solve the clues and walk to the treasure with a smile on their face.”

            Poem #1, Book #2 and Maps #3 – ALL are needed – or at least according to Forrest.


          • JDA: I’m actually agnostic when it comes to the necessity of the book. Based on a few quotes from Fenn, I think TTOTC might be helpful for ~confirmation~ of an idea, but not as a resource for how to solve the poem:

            “Dear Mr. Fenn, We are a group of avid elderly bridge players in San Diego who after reading your book hope to find your treasure. We are not into poetry as much as the memoir. We realize the clues are in the poem, but were wondering if there isn’t at least one clue in each chapter. Thank you for a great book. Sincerely, Emily”

            “Emily, All of the information you need to find the treasure is in the poem. The chapters in my book have very subtle hints but are not deliberately placed to aid the seeker. Good luck in the search. f”

            This tells me that if a searcher comes up with a method that critically depends on information found ONLY in the book, and is not derived directly from the poem, then they are barking up the wrong tree.

          • You know what’s funny Zap?
            Those elderly bridge players already read the book before Forrest’s statement.
            Read the question/quote again. LOL

          • Subtle hints….
            “EMILY, All of the information YOU need to find the treasure is in the poem.”
            “Here is what I would do.” (Forrest)

            So I’ll ask you all, would you do what he would do or what Emily would do?
            I will go with what Forrest would do & said to do, never mind what he told Emily to do. For all we know, Emily may not even exist…..

          • Zap;

            I can not argue with your point. The poem contains all that is needed BUT Maps or GE and TTOTC are tools that assist in solving the poem. To use ALL the tools that are available, I would think was prudent. Take Forrest at his words – our two quotes, and merrily go about solving the poem.

            We needn’t argue about the particular shade of gray. All gray is a mixture of black and white – it just depends on how much of each is needed to get a particular shade. You like your shade, puzzled likes his/hers, I like mine.

            What is the correct shade – Forrest isn’t telling, except he says to use Black, white, and a stirring stick.


          • Jake You stated;
            Subtle hints….
            “EMILY, All of the information YOU need to find the treasure is in the poem.”
            “Here is what I would do.” (Forrest)
            So I’ll ask you all, would you do what he would do or what Emily would do?
            I will go with what Forrest would do & said to do, never mind what he told Emily to do. For all we know, Emily may not even exist…..

            You’re just having fun with words, right??
            You don’t really think fenn meant only Emily should use the information in the poem and all the rest of us do something else?

            Heck… if that’s what you really think, how can you take any information fenn has stated at all serious? Then the poem is NOT straightforwards, the hints in the book are NOT subtle and are there to aid the searchers, The chest must be above 10,200′
            Are we to now question if any of the Q&A’s are real people… I’d bet “She” would be a little disappointed that ‘he’ is not all there!.

            Loco stop laughing… we all know I’m not all there and hardly here.

          • HA, Got Ya!
            Pay attention to the wording.
            Don’t just read it, understand it.
            “if that’s what you really think, how can you take any information fenn has stated at all serious?”
            Each statement is different & should be construed in that way.
            You should be able to know which Q&A is valid by the words in the Q & the words in the answer. I give Q&A scores. Pass or fail. That one failed.
            Look at this way as well. His latest statements override his older statements.
            Maybe he didn’t want to give out as much info back then & now he he does.
            Why else the contradictions in his statements over time?
            I’m not buying the alzheimer’s or senility.
            I’m buying more what he says now than what he said later when contradictions arise.

          • How are your thoughts coming along, Seeker? Poem, map and TTOTC? Things Mr. Fenn have said/posted in the past helpful for you?

  15. odd statement in ttotc about pushing a coin below her headstone at night. Why at night?

    • Yeah, I think it was a Nickel or a Dime.
      Maybe either one has something to do with the chase.
      In the Wood = Di
      End is drawing Nigh = Ni

      Just some simple things like that. Or both of them

  16. Jake,

    As a question based in curiosity, why do you feel certain, like many others as well, that looking in the places of FF’s childhood memories is the correct approach?
    Again, I’m not asking from a standpoint of anything more than trying to understand.
    I have had trouble rationalizing this out…….the majority of ff’s life was spent either in the military or married in New Mexico. Also, FF has said that any clues in TTOTC would be subtle and not obvious.
    Lastly, he wants to be remembered….. he was saddened that when he looked up his dad on the internet….all he found was a grave marker location. He loved and respected his dad….that is why maybe he doesn’t want to see the same fate….be forgotten.
    If we sum the mans life up into what is memorable to the reader, mind you…..as only the reader decides if history will remember you…..then wouldn’t the interest be in what he became in NM……art dealer, multi-millionaire, author, etc.
    Please keep in mind 100%, I am not asking this as a matter of fact……I am asking as this is something I have struggled with for a few years….. where & why?


    • Sleepy – If I may offer something even though I’m not Jake. In reply to a question on MW, Forrest answered that the clues did not exist when he was a kid but most of the places the clues refer did. To me that hints that the area where he hid the treasure was a place that he knew very well from his childhood. In the stories that he has shared about growing up he talks a lot about WY and MT. He doesn’t mention spending time as a youth in CO or NM. While it is possible that he did, he doesn’t make mention of it. Logically I go to the areas where he did spend so much time. In reply to another question about the special spot, Forrest said something along the line that he has fond memories of special places from his youth. I know that isn’t exactly what he said but in the ballpark. Also Forrest has stated that his book is enough to lead the average person to the treasure. All of that information seems to confirm that the area where he hid the chest is where he spent a fair amount of time in his youth. He also continues to share stories pertaining to those areas today. I know that some of my fondest memories are from my youth as well. I could be way off base but Forrest has said if a person will think and us logic they can figure out the poem.

      • Hear me all,

        Allow me to rebuttal.
        While fenn has said the book is helpful with the clues. He has stated the hint are unintentional, not deliberately placed, and there are a couple of good hints and a couple of aberrations that live out on the edge [ referring to the book ]
        We have been told the things that are useful to know and use…
        That the poem has all he information to locate the chest.
        A comprehensive knowledge of geography might help.
        GE and or a good map.
        We have been told repeatedly to go back to the poem.
        Told, ignore the poem at your own peril.
        Even in a direct question about the book, fenn’s reply [ folks need to listen for themselves and make up their own mind ] You don’t need to read my book, you need to decipher the clues, the book will help.
        And we have been told about things not to use, such as, knowing head pressure, bible verses, Latin, codes etc.
        Told, not the mess with the poem.

        So I can see the struggle here… Subtle hints that help, yet not deliberately placed to aid a searcher. But yet, what you’re implying is the book leads or eliminate areas because of the stories. I find it interesting that you dismiss CO… how does one travel by vehicle in the 1930’s- 40’s and 50’s from TX and not travel through CO. A 1600 mile trip at 35 miles an hour. I think there were many stops along the way and CO surely would have many of those stops… I mean we’re talking 48 hours non-stop one way with three children in a packed in a 1930 something car.
        Re-read the chapter ” In love with YS” its one page long and talks about YS in approx, two sentences… the rest talks about the travels to YS. Maybe that is a subtle hint, and aberration fenn talks about.

        I thought I knew what subtle and not deliberate meant before, now I’m not so sure.

        • Seeker – I do think the poem is the most critical component. Without it we have nothing and without any other information to go on, the poem would mean very little. I don’t think Forrest has written TTOTC and TFTW for entertainment only. In my opinion they do contain good information to assist in solving the poem if you think logically. Not too long ago Forrest indicated that searchers need to get back in the box and quit complicating solves. In my opinion, when the chest is found, the winning solve will be much more simple than most are willing to believe or see.

          Logic tells me that if Colorado was an important component in the chase, Forrest would have spent a bit of time sharing stories about that state. Personally I would love for the chest to be in Colorado but could not make the poem fit any place in that state. Think about this. When a teacher is trying to teach students, don’t they talk about the most important subject the most? Forrest has been educating us searchers and he has done a good job in my opinion. Forrest has even told us that he has no desire to mislead. If that is the case, he has been trying to actual lead us to the chest with the poem and the stories.

          Of course there are always going to be some who dismiss the obvious and try to make things harder on themselves. Forrest says that kids would have an advantage. To me this means that they see things with a simple mind and don’t complicate things. They tell it like it is. I’ve seen some solves that are very polluted with ideas that no child could follow or dream up. I’m not saying the solve is extremely simple because if that were the case the chest would have been discovered by now.

          • I don’t understand the think like a kid comment. No child is going to solve such a confusing poem/obtuse roadmap with 4 states to search in. Maybe he is saying think like I did when I was 10-12 but that do you think he thought or spoke like that when he was 10? I was just up in Yellowstone a few weeks ago and people were crawling all over that place. Yes, it is very large but if it was in an obvious spot someone would of found it by now. If it is 100 feet off an obscure location and buried/covered it could be there for 100 years or under 4 feet of buffalo dung.

        • I agree, as much as i like MT or the green river area, I’m having trouble letting go of Mesa Verde and the bracelet (Mr. Richard Wetherill or “Weatherell”).
          Has there been much talk about Wetherill vs. Weatherell?

          • Arca –

            yes, it’s been spelled many different ways over the years…….

            Here is how the family spells it, on their very nicely put together site……


            Also have you read his book? If not, I will post it for you.

          • Arca –

            If you have TFTW – you might want to compare the map in the above book to the one in the book.

          • Inthechase, I’ve been reading “The land of the cliff-dwellers”… LOVE IT, thank you.
            I’m going to compare the maps tonight.

          • Arca –

            Your so welcome….. I always thought it was one of those rare special books – that once read, you will never forget. Even if you don’t read – the photos are killer.

          • inthechaseto,
            I studied the map opposite the poem in TOTC and compared to the map pull out in TFTW.
            Research (IMO)
            1. The map in the TOTC is of NM, and is old county map. I can not find one that is exactly like it. I can not find one that has SAN MIGUEL and RIO ARRIBA positioned the same way.
            2. There is something not right with the TOTC map. Maybe an overlay, maybe there is another way to look at the map…. I just don’t know and i didn’t look in the blogs for any details… i wanted no preconceived notions.
            Compare Research;
            1. The TOTC map in comparison is a very very small part of the TFTW map, so the comparison is very small. I could not find anything specifically the same or different.

            1. Am I comparing the maps you referred to?
            2. Can you guide me a little more to what you were hinting at?

            Have a great holiday weekend!

    • Sleepy,
      Hear me all, stated it pretty well.
      Even Forrest’s recent statements point to the general area.
      “but it can’t see my mind, which is still 13”
      What state was there destination at this age? Was this place dear & special to him? What other states on the map he has refereed to as special or dear?
      Why has he stated, his mind is 13 on several occasions?
      I see those clues/hints in his books as subtle, he is not pinpointing exactly where the treasure is obviously cause no one has found it.

      • Jake, where did you get that quote from?

        And to add, I wonder if Forrest was 13 when he found his first arrowhead.

        • @Buckeye Bob He was 9 and in Texas near Temple if I’m not mistaken when he found his first arrowhead

          • Thanks JasonD. I thought it was in Texas too, but I can’t recall reading that specifically.

          • Ahh, thanks.
            I was wondering what the “it” was that couldn’t see his mind. Nature. It didn’t make sense without that context.

          • What I find very interesting about him still being 13, is his bike rides to his bathing spot in the Firehole River. He went alone in there….

          • Jake,
            Fenn has mentioned his 13 year old self many time in and out of the book… which is curious in itself.
            Yet his 9 year old self was, as we have been told, the start of the thrill of the chase [ so to speak ]… the finding of that little arrowhead that kicked started the interest to search, explore and collect.

            If I’m not mistaken that occurred in TX. So if I have my facts straight… why couldn’t the start of the clues [ or parts of ] be there? Seriously, 3 month a year spent in the greater YS area [including traveling between there and home], while the rest of the year was in TX. After retiring from the military he moved the family to NM… not too far from his childhood days / home. An interesting note; what did fenn say just prior to the comment where he explained what he would see/smell if standing at the chest? [ the pinon nut comment ]

            You’re right though… it is interesting the amount of times he mentions his 13 year old self… and funny that he mentioned in the book ” if an readers “over the age of 12” don’t see a little of themselves in “this” mirror…”
            Seemingly wanting us to be in the same shoes, so to speak.

          • Yes, finding the arrow got the ball rolling in Texas.
            The clues could start anywhere but eventually would have to lead to one of the 4 states. I find it hard pressed for any of the clues to be in Texas & try to make it work where the treasure is.

            I do know that when I was that age, the most memorable part of my life was when I took a trip to Maine in the mountains & didn’t want to go back home.
            The lure of nature & exploration was set in my mind then & went back to the mountains many, many times since & even moved there on the foothills in New Hampshire for about 5 years.

            His 3 month trips to Yellowstone have obviously etched great memories in his mind at that age & has been going back there ever since & I can certainly see why.
            There are no stories about Colorado in his chapters, I think he mentions Colorado once or twice. Ralph L. lived there? That part of my memory is fading, maybe I will have to read again.

          • You’re welcome. Perhaps the thought may be going back in time? We’ve read this word before. Comparing ages, I see part of the poem, “new and old,” too.

      • I think we need to not necessarily seek out the places that FF loved at the age of 13. I think we need to THINK like a 13-year-old!

        • Puzzled,
          Why would we not want to seek out the places he loved so much?
          That sounds illogical & against the whole Thrill of The Chase.
          Are you saying we should just stay home on our digital devices?

          Think like him when he was 13 or his early teens, not like a 13 year old of today…

    • Thanks Team,

      Great conversation, thoughts and insight. Much appreciated. As I mentioned in my original post, I was not asking “matter of fact-ly” but more in regards to my own struggle with the thought process. I have gone back and forth over this in my mind!
      Hear me all — while I agree with your logic to some degree and as I mentioned I struggle with this one, I don’t personally think that the statement “… the clues didn’t exist when I was a child……but the places did….” is the smoking gun of truth. FF has always been very slick in how he crafts his words. The clues wouldn’t have existed when he was a child as he didn’t craft the clues until he came up with the idea for the “chase” but yes the points of geographic reference would have. But I do get all of your points in this and appreciate your responses and thoughts.


  17. Anyone here ever fished Slough Creek? I snagged a huge Cutthroat by accident, got covered in mosquito bites, and watched my brother catch trout after trout just because he had a grasshopper fly that had legs. Mine didn’t. So the only trout I caught was by pure accident. But it was one of the most fun times I have ever had. What does this have to do with solving the poem? Absolutely nothing. The “adventure” associated with solving this puzzle has just awakened some very nice memories.

    Thanks again Forrest.

  18. I really enjoy all the analyses of Fenn’s youth venues, but have some reasoning that supports a NM hide. I won’t go into it, but consider this… Our finding of his gold is probably not very amusing for Mr. Fenn … It’s Game Over when found. And I think he likes the game. so being a minimalist about the hidey state is probably a smart move by him. Just a thought, good luck all.

      • Based on that alone, it’s a strong contender. But I have some other reasons too , however all of them require some little leaps of faith. No cigar yet.

          • Pdenver, I got to thinking about Colorado last night…

            First, I am not a backwoods person. Grew up Chicago suburbs, summers in Wisconsan woods & with rural farm relatives, raised my own family in Miami Fl, and in-between, lived mostly in D.C. & east coast urban areas. I don’t have that understanding for wilderness you guys have, but I hold no one higher in my appreciation for its beauty and wonders. So, annoyingly, I rely on my big-city ways, I study the book and other incidentals as much as the poem, and more so than the geography.

            I think others do too, and maybe Fenn counts on us getting in our own way with our psychoanalysis & history & literature & ciphering & linguistics, etc. But for what its worth, here’s my thought on Colorado as the hidey state…. I always thought that those kids on a rope were symbolic of the highway from Raton to Cheyenne… about 25 kids/exits to cross over the state & DON’T TOUCH RED. However, the lesson of the story is DO TOUCH. And thats my strongest case for Colorado.

            I also think that after you know the WWWH, the rest is geography… and I kinda think waters may halt somewhere around that Air Force Academy. I have no justifiable reason for that assumption.


    • OS2,
      I’m not sure what you mean by ” so being a minimalist about the hidey state is probably a smart move by him.”

      Fenn has eliminated many states that folks were searching in [ basically any state that was north of SF was in the running ] Then eliminated some states that are in the RM’s [Idaho, Utah]
      The did the same for Canada. I mean, if you think about it, he has eliminated a lot of real-estate, even more than we now have to search in.

      While I won’t pretend to know what state the chest lays in wait… I do wonder why would fenn not eliminate all the states not involved? It’s a small chest that fenn stated was hidden so well that no one would stumble upon it.
      Fenn has put a lot of money / time / effort into the chase… even had benchmark make a map of the remaining areas [ I wonder what the cost of that was alone ]. So what peaks my interest is… are all four states needed to be know and if so, why?

      Many are trying to start their search by attempting to figure out what state the chest might be in. This process is puzzling to me… It’s nothing more than a guess/ hunch in my mind. Many have given reason for this line of thinking and to be honest… their reasoning for why each state is equal, but yet no real factual information for justification that one state is better then the other.

      Could it be with all the narrowing down that fenn has given over the years… it can’t be narrowed down anymore? Not want to, but can’t.

      • He likes the game. Especially when the body is tired & weak but the mind is still ready for challenge & adventure. Why the heck are all us armchair cowboys still here?

        • I once had the youthful misadventure to arrogantly accuse another man of being too ‘tired & weak’..

          only to be surprised by my nose suddenly bloodying from his swiftly delivered fist.

          ..a humble lesson well deserved and never forgotten.

        • OS2,
          I get a kick out of these little titles folks place on other… Armchair Solvers… Poem Purist… BOTG searchers… Abstract Thinkers… Kitchen Sink solvers… KiSS Solutionist… Out of the Box thinkers… In the Box thinkers, etc. So you ask, “why are all us armchair cowboys still here?”

          I personally think those so called armchair thinkers are wondering why so many are going off half-cocked traveling thousand of miles working on not much more than a hunch.

          Some of those folks have dozens if not hundreds of searches and any time in a number of different states / locations, spent more money than they have, uprooted their lives to move to a state to do those searches, and some have even complained they are having major family problems, major expense problems, and even divorce. The uses the excuse fenn wants us out in nature so I hear and listen good…
          All while the armchair specialist attempts to understand the poem enough to know beforehand they might a good chance of actually figuring out how to decipher the clues.

          My definition of an armchair solver; a person who thinks and plans and has an analytical mind and uses logic, not someone who has a hunch.” 

          Just my personal opinion.

          • Seeker;

            I am sure that you call yourself an Abstract Thinker. What other titles might you attribute to yourself?

            Just askin’ – no dig intended – Just curious as to how you perceive yourself. JDA

          • I would call those armchair searchers the pilot fish of the blogs, feeding off of those that are as you say it “going off half cocked” How do you know if your bucket will hold water if you don’t fill it up once in awhile? Only through those lessons taught by those doing it, do we all gain an insight on the chase. It is what Forrest wanted was for us all to get out in the sunshine and away from these electronic devices. It is a symbiotic relationship that we all share.

            “Things may come to those that wait, but only the things left by those who hustle”


          • Well, again JDA you don’t know what you’re talking about.
            JD~”I am sure that you call yourself an Abstract Thinker.”

            The abstract thinker title was coined/followed by vicious terminology from another searcher who didn’t like my difference of opinion on how the poem can be read other than directional, botg a must to follow point to point method only.
            These type of personality that believe their way is the only way, and literally/deliberately go out of their way to fights/attack any and all who disagrees, while they hide behind a computer monitor… always make me wonder; Really?! This was the sperm that won?

            And I’ll say it again… how I “perceive” myself… I’m a guy who is attempting to solve a challenge and offers thoughts and ideas for discussions with others who have the same interest.

            Call it what you will…

          • Liter81,
            Good point on the bucket analogy.
            And yes the poem has many outside and enjoying nature again. Fenn even said the poem has done its job.

            Yet I have to ask… who here would be out [ that normally would not have ] traveling to all those different areas, and yes spending tons of money, spending hundreds of hours of research [ mostly on those electronic devices ] etc. If there wasn’t the lure of a million plus in gold and precious stones involved.

            Would the media even be involved? the invitation to the today show? Would 65,000 plus folks ~ live and breathe the chase if that lure of instant wealth was not involved.
            I don’t, and I know a few other as well, that need the excuse to wonder around nature… For me this has always been about matching wits to the author’s challenge. My bucket is happy with what is inside.

          • Seeker;

            You are right, I probably do not know what I am talking about. I said “Abstract Thinker” because that is the name you used in one of your solves. If it was, “followed by vicious terminology from another searcher who didn’t like my difference of opinion on how the poem can be read other than directional, botg a must to follow point to point method only.”

            I knew nothing about this. When I said that I thought that you would think of yourself as “An Abstract Thinker” – I meant it as a compliment. You DO “Think outside of the box…You think abstractly – as a compliment, NOT a put-down.

            Sorry that I did not know the history, and that what I hoped was a compliment you took as a put-down. It CERTAINLY was not meant that way.

            Being, “( I’m) a guy who is attempting to solve a challenge and offers thoughts and ideas for discussions with others who have the same interest.” is GOOD – KEEP IT UP


          • Seeker;

            When I key in the words “Abstract Thinker” into the search box below Dal’s picture – guess what pops up?

            Your Solve entitled, “From The Mind of an Abstract Thinker.” If you do not think of yourself as an “Abstract Thinker” – why did you title your solve “From the Mind of an Abstract Thinker.”

            It would appear as though you will disagree with ANYTHING I say, even if it is meant as a compliment.


  19. Do you guys think with all the information we have available to us,that, geographic profiling, could be used effectively to narrow down the search area?

  20. Fins up—I don’t think geographic profiling will help. I really do believe the poem is to be understood on many different levels. It points to an exact location, but the “meaning” of the poem is obscure.

    I’m sure this has been shared before, but last night I was thinking about the phrase “where warm waters halt” and saw how it could refer to just after childhood (age 13 or so) when we learn to stop crying (warm waters halt)—the term “this is no place for the meek” may refer to the poem that says “Mondays child is meek and mild”—since you are no longer a child you need to learn to grow up. There’s no longer as much “paddling” (discpline).

    We begin to realize that one day we will die (“the end is ever drawing nigh”) and life becomes much tougher (heavy loads).

    But in the end our “effort will be worth the cold”–if we continue on honorably and sincerely in life. And hopefully we find contentment and satisfaction if we live well.

    **But as I said, that is a “broad” meaning that I see—-hidden within that broad meaning is a much stricter meaning which takes you exactly to a place where a chest is hidden. Very exciting to say the least!

  21. Just For Fun . . .

    Pilot fish live in WarmWater. They have been known to swim into the mouth of a shark and eat the bits of food left in the teeth of the shark. You took the words right outta my mouth . . .

    f collected string as a kid. Different colored string, or yarn. He viewed each new find as a treasure, so he would tie it to the previous treasure, or the “old” one if you will, thereby creating a thesaurus of new and old.
    He figured out the best way to tie them together, was to use square-knots.


    philmontscoutranch.org/filestore/philmont/pd :

    Philmont – Who May Participate?
    “. . . and be at least 13 years of age . . .”

    The Arrowhead Award
    Tripple Crown and Grand Slam
    50-Miler Award

    Leave No Trace
    Personal GPS and Emergency Locator Devices
    Chase Ranch (founded 1867. Manly Chase.brave and in the wood.)
    T-Rex footprint
    K-T boundary (riches new and old. “and”= K-T boundary?)
    “oops bag” (no need for oops . . .f)

    And now, let’s call our first witness, Donald Rumsfeld.

    You may be right, I may be crazy. But it just may be a lunatic you’re lookin for . . .

    • thanks ROLL TIDE, but I think there is no shortage of lunatics in the world at the moment (the banking sector being a prime case in point)

      ..but if you can hold a note and sing Piano Man, then ya my kinda lunatic mate

      • curious hobbit,

        I’m not really sure how it goes,
        But it’s sad and it’s sweet, and I knew it complete
        When I wore a younger man’s clothes . . .

        A conversation with the voices in my head :

        As I have gone alone in there . . .
        In where?
        What? whatcha mean?
        In there is where.
        I dunno.
        No, no, no. Where, is in there.
        Again, I dunno. In that secret place where he went alone,
        I guess.
        Exactly. In there is a secret place.
        Yeah, but where is the secret place?
        That is correct. See, he says it right here . . . “I can keep my secret where.”, so, “secret where” is the secret place. Where=place.
        Okay, I think I get it. Secret where is actually saying secret place?
        Exactly. place= ‘x’ marks the spot.
        So, how do we know where this secret place is?
        Well, he tells us right here . . .”If you are brave and in the wood, I give you title to the gold.”
        So, you’re saying this secret place is in the wood?
        In a word, yes.
        Well, what about all these rumors goin around that it’s hidden in a creek or something? You know, the whole fly-water thingy.?
        It ain’t in no fly-water.
        How can you be so sure?
        Do you remember “Inohury” ?
        Yeah, so?
        That tells me it ain’t in no fly-water.
        In no HURY.

    • Jake;

      The answer is YES. The National Park Service is 100 years old this year. To celebrate, they are offering free admission on the following dates:

      Mark your calendar for these entrance fee–free dates in 2016:

      January 18: Martin Luther King Jr. Day
      April 16 through 24: National Park Week
      August 25 through 28: National Park Service Birthday
      September 24: National Public Lands Day
      November 11: Veterans Day

      Copied from National Park Service webpage.


      • JDA, I saw something during one of your recent posts and I would like to share it only with you, because YOU hit upon it. If you care to share an email in a reply we can dialog. If not, best wishes to you…a kind man…who deserves some sparkle at the end of one of your walks!

    • That is correct…I’ve heard of some road closures around the south entrance of yellowstone in the last two days due to wildfires

    • Thanks,
      I suppose I wont be able to get a rain/snow check.
      Yep, I’ve heard other searchers here talking about early snow & see it’s a reality. Get your snow shoes ready JD.

  22. “Is it really true that intelligent people talk less…on the other hand, is it true that people who talk more are not smart?”…..

    Are we closer on any of the clues yet?

    • Asks who? To either question? Was it posed by a smart person? Was it posed by one not so smart?. Are you asking? 🙂 JDA

    • but our world leaders talk endlessly, and they are all smart and intelligent people.

      ..oh wait, what am I saying..?

    • There is a great quote (often attributed to Jimi Hendrix)
      that I find to be quite accurate:

      “Knowledge speaks but wisdom listens.”

  23. Just checking in. Has anyone solved the Mystery of the Vanishing Ball of String yet? (p. 127-28, TTOTC)

    I figure the size of a ball that can’t get out of a 36-inch (estimated) door as having some 480,000 feet of string. This was determined by taking 30% of Frank Stoeber’s 11-foot ball described here:


    I don’t recall seeing this discussed. Seems challenging to disappear 480,000 feet of string. What are some theories on what happened to it?

    • The most logical explanation has to be, that someones lovely but senile Grandma decided to frantically knit some very extra large long-johns (by threading it through the gap in the window – the one that never quite shut properly in winter) so her Grandson Jack, could present some warm clothes to the jolly green giant, when next ascending the bean-stalk.


    • With respect to the string:
      IMO, perhaps over 8.25 miles of it is being used by F so that he will know for sure if TC is being moved. 🙂
      “Have flashlight, will travel”

    • Ah yes….the string theory. Here is my take on it. In my opinion, the clue in that story is not so much the ball of string, but Forrest’s mom looking out the window for the postman, or in other words, the “letter carrier”. Just a little clue that has worked for me. It’s like the rusty fire escape. i think the moral of that story was him disappearing when the teachers back was turned. It was his “widow of opportunity” , like the short time frame of weather in various search areas.

  24. spallies,

    Okay, so one day my 9-year-old gson tells me . . . “pawpaw, I been thinkin . . . and don’t take this the wrong way . . .”
    I said “okay bub, whatcha been thinkin?”

    “well pawpaw, have you ever thought that maybe you should start with something a little bit smaller?”

    “what do you mean baby?”

    “well, since this is your first treasure-hunt, maybe you should start out by looking for something a bit smaller, say, like a 9,000 or 10,000 dollar treasure . . .”

    And another day – “pawpaw, I looked in your treasure book and I don’t know how to say this but, those gold coins look fake to me . . .”

    So when Dal posted his birthday card, I told him “hey, look here bub, you was right!”
    His response? “I KNEW it !!!”

    ndat rot derz funny. ont ker hooyar.

    I’m having a blast. How about you ?

  25. Hi Jeremy – the fraction is actually much, much less than 30%. Since the volume of the ball of string grows linearly with the length of the string that went into it, the diameter of that ball of string is proportional to the cube root of that length. So if Frank Stoeber’s 11-foot diameter ball of string had a length of 1.6 million feet, then a 3-foot diameter ball would only have a length of about 32,500 feet (about 1/50th the length). Still an impressive amount of string: over 6 miles!

  26. Begin it where warm waters halt, and take it in the canyon down,not far,but too far to walk. I was reading the blogs and this popped into my head.its just plain ( drive).remember when they peeded in the gas tank.well warm waters halted.the car,drive it down the canyon.make any sense to you guys.

      • Stanza 1= Read the book naked

        Only F can’t say that because the crazies would say hes making lude innuendos…. but old wit and witticism people and the type of Grandpa’s that would always have warm butterscotch candies in their pockets and good stories to tell would smile at the irony as it’s a term that means “from cover to cover”

        I see a lot of this in most of his stories (strings)…so there whole different stories to me. I think the postman/”marks” represent the “message getting across/delivered”

        Aka= i think F is trying to tell us that once the chest came out from under f’s cover only stories replaced it underneath the same “cover”

        I think funny though and when I was little I loved old guys stories the best cause they talked like that….kinda like inside jokes and codes you had with your treehouse club. Not necessarily a “code” to be craked….just the way things sound different when coming from someone you love and trust. If my grandpa told me to read a book naked with a wink I’d grab the book as fast as I could….if a stranger said that to me at the age of 6? I may call the cops. When I read the book and poem the former way I really REALLY liked it. It took me back to the old treehouse.

        TC wasn’t there though. Just our old flag protecting our comic books. Nice trip though.

        • Interesting too was our carefully crafted rope ladder…..or as I call it “the nine line”… a little bird once sand songs about the pillowiest, puffiest, downiest, clouds of all…no wait, that was Eric Sloane…he sounded like a bird now though. At least when I read his books naked he did.

          • Thanks, but I gotta blame fenn. When I read his JH sharp bibliography I marvelled myself. So I tried to read his book and look at him with the same care and hope he looks into others. If he mentioned a book, I read it. If he mentioned a person I read about them, and the books they wrote, and the pictures they drew, their brush strokes, brushes, you name it. if he mentioned a product I read it’s history. (See grapette if you want to marvel at sugar beets and even Tarzan himself!) If he mentioned a radio program on a day I found that program and listened to it. If he mentioned a magazine I bought the issue and read it. If he mentioned a painting I found the exhibition catalog and bought it. I found a new set of eyes in there it’s fun to talk through. I’m trying to compile a giant scrapbook of stuff, no theories or anything, just stuff that’s cool so everyone doesn’t have to buy all the stuff I did if they are as thirsty as I got….but it’s really hard when I’m still as thirsty as I am and the puddle really is the transatlantic. Big picture? Dang. All I got is a souvenir pixel so far….and it’s way bigger than me or any chest I’ve ever seen. Call me a Brown noser or not…the man taught this fish to catch herself….and play a little baseball too. Goodyear gonna shoot me for being off topic cause this really has nothing to do with any chest so I’ll shut up. But F hits the RBIs I just try and pillow them down for the guys he seems to be hitting them for. I’m just a bartender that likes to hear stories and repeat them. I newer carried Whistle Pig myself though I wish I was good enough to play.

        • Hi jonsey, What I look back at is blog 126 with the hat “Mildew”. As the story went, the guy who gave Forrest the hat was “Dither”, who spoke in a drawl…..
          A good example is reciting “Begin it where warm waters halt” with a thick southern drawl. The word “halt” ends up sounding like “hauled”, a key point in my solution. About the “post marks”? I’m seeing a couple answers. First, animals mark their territory with a scent. Male Scent Marked Post. In my solve it relates to migration. The other clue is the ball of string story and his mother looking out for the mail man. Another name for postman is a “letter carrier”. That one I’ll let you spell out what it means.

    • You gotta put in the time to understand the crime 🙂 just grab that black Buffalo by the horns, you know. If not…just pass on through. Nothing see here but crazy town. I promise…I think.

      • I will say if you read the poem without the knowledge of the chest or the quest it makes better sense that is how I interpret naked so you are right you are a sharp gal

  27. To Book or not To Book ?

    “all of the information is in the poem”

    “read the poem, read the book, read the poem again”

    Is there a conundrum here? I don’t think so.

    “Your effort will be worth the cold” . . . if I type “worth the cold” into one of the many search engines I use, I get “worth the money”.

    Now, here is dessert : “effort” is synonymous with . . . wait for it . . .

    . . . collected works.

    chew on that.

  28. To byron,
    Well byron I am comfortable in the skin I am in. I also feel my solve has reached its pinnacle other than BOTG. I was just curious what the shoe conversation was about. I enjoy some of the posts here. I do not chat in here much unless it is to aid. IMO. Shoes yes. Has nothing to do with where I arrived but scrapbooks are a fun and entertaining way to work and possibly confirm your solve. In my mind only or not I feel it fits.
    As far as Forrest and his art collections and gallery. Not sure if he ever was ruthless. He seems to just be confident and wise. Purchase an investment and enjoy its beauty. I do not think he was a cut throat/pressure salesman.

  29. For health reason’s Forrest is cutting back in his involvement in the chase. Less attention to email, fewer interviews and blog appearances will be his new MO. Here is what he wrote:

    “I’m cutting back on my activities, which means going to lunch, seeing people, and time on my computer. f”

    Jenny has a supply of Weekly Words from Forrest to last awhile and also wrote on her blog about Forrest’s intentions:


    • “Be mindful of nature and your health, but not in that order.”

      Please take care of yourself, sir. From all of us, thank you for the thrills of a lifetime!

      • Also, please let us know you’re OK from time to time, through Dal or Jenny. All the best.

    • I really hate to hear he is not up to his standards. If there is anything I can do please let me know. He has given me an opportunity to dream a little…if only I could do the same…sucks!
      In my prayers…

    • Best Wishes to you and yours Mr. Fenn. My Family and I thank you for the opportunity for adventure and an awakening thrill of the case.

  30. Thanks dal. I wish all the best for you Forrest. Take good care of yourself. Thanks for everything.

  31. Forrest, I am very sad to hear that you are having health issues that limit your lifestyle, But am glad that you are listening to your doctor and cutting back. I truly appreciate what you have done for me and others. You gave me the motivation for the trips I have made to the Rockies instead of what I was doing… just dreaming of it sometime in the future. Looking for the treasure was just a bonus compared to the thrill of actually being there. Thank you! Please stay well.

  32. My Dearest Forest;
    I have just returned from my eighth trip to Wyoming in search of your elusive Treasure. We did not find it, but we have not given up hope. We saw 3 Ewes and a young Rocky Mountain Sheep near our search site. Coming home we saw a beautiful Mountain Goat, cross over a guard rail, across the road behind us and scamper up a 45 degree hill. All sights I would not of seen had it not been for your Chase. Your dream to get folks out into the wilds of the Rockies has been fulfilled!

    I was saddened to learn that the Dr. has advised that you “Take a break”. SO:Take a break, bring back your health fueled by the hopes and prayers by thousands of well-wishers, including me. Said with a tear or two on my cheek.

    Godspeed, and TRY to STAY SAFE and healthy

    A FENN-atic

    To my fellow-bloggers, I am about to eat whatever portion of humble pie you deem proper. I have not given up on my general “area”, but will have to make a couple adjustments before I go out again in about one month.

    God Speed Forrest.

    • Well said JDA, also sorry to hear your trip didn’t end with a backpack full of gold! I’m still pulling for you..

    • Hey JDA
      Yes, it was a “gloomy” day yesterday to find that our “Special Friend” is told to back away from his desk to help himself feel better, by his doctor. It’s not just the Chase that F has to stop with it’s everything on his computer. It seems that this Great Man that has been trying to get kids, men, women and families outside and into the Rocky Mountains and be a family again has himself put his own life in a condition that this 86 year old man has for gotten to get outside himself. By doing this he has now become sick and must get outside and relax to be able to talk with us again…
      My own fear is that f will push himself to far to be able to return.Forrest has always said that his body is 86 years old but his mind is 13 years old. Now he has to face the reality of what life has dealt out. We all Love f in our own special way and I hope that f understands that since no searcher has recovered the T.C. that our feelings for him are just that. We love him for who Forrest Fenn is, as a person and nothing other than that.
      I hope he checks in every once in awhile, just to let us know that he is OK.
      Best of luck JDA on your new search area and please be safe out there
      Timothy IMHO

        • JDA
          Thank you!! Since you live in Idaho can you tell me when snow starts to become a problem? I ran last years forecast for Colorado, Wyoming New Mexico and it came back as one of the earliest and larger amounts in years… I used to be a skier for years, now I’m able to fall down without any snow. Go figure!!!!
          At 62 I’m trying to keep my butt up rather than down. Good luck trying to figure out your solve, I hope you can do it “or” that you have a secondary solve ready to go. Either way please be careful as the leaves fall so do we and at our times in this life falling down isn’t funny anymore.Well maybe sometimes….
          Be safe

          • Snow does not really become a problem in most areas of Idaho until November. Island Park, on the way to West Yellowstone gets a
            little deep mid October. Teton Pass on the way to the Jackson Hole area in Wyoming much the same – Mid October/early November.

            Hope this helps.

            Good Hunting – JDA

    • Sorry JDA
      I had to finish my crow pie from my last search. I haven’t made a new one yet. When I do make it, I’ll probably break that pie any how..
      Take great care my friend

  33. I’m a first time searcher. I actually flew out west this morning. Forrest’s treasure hunt helped me so much while I was sick in bed for a month. So, once I got past merely existing, I decided I was going to live big time by going on this adventure. Figuring out the puzzle was exciting. But, what really had an impact on me was that after I had my solve, I read his heartfelt book that was filled with so many memories and so much wisdom and introspection. I will always appreciate that. It saddens me that he isn’t feeling well. I hope it is very temporary and that he is feeling good soon. Prayers for you and your family, Forrest. And, thank you for helping me through my illness.

    • Best of luck with the search JBL, sounds like you need some well-deserved adventure.

      Keep us informed mate, as it may well save me a very expensive airline ticket.

        • And I’m sure I’m like thousands of other searchers who think they have figured it out, but I’ve got to at least check. I’m with my son who is going back to college for his senior year and then off to his own adventures, so I will treasure this time with him!

          • yeah I get that. As my son gets older our adventures together seem to become less frequent too, so all the more precious in that sense.

            Best of luck to you both.

        • Enjoy JBL
          But most of all is to be safe, nothing is going anywhere..
          Oh yea, and welcome to our nightmare….lol

      • I found my blaze, but no treasure. Poor execution could easily be to blame. Still not feeling 100% and the elevation did me in. Only was able to look for about an hour when I had to stop. Now I need to figure out next steps. Good luck in your search. BTW, my solve is in Wyoming.

        • well done JBL, for having the courage to chase ya dreams – and glad to hear your health is better than it was.

          (just found Wyoming on the map – flying out there tomorrow)

    • JBL,
      You may not get this as you are all ready out west… so have some fun with your son…
      But I was wondering, Do you feel you have discovered some of the after the fact comments fenn has mentioned.. such as… the important possibility comment? or the possibility of why other searcher were at the first two clues and went pass the other seven? Or how you would know / be certain of your path beforehand?
      Besides the book and the poem… fenn has given us a lot to think about over the years, and I was wondering if you have considered how they reflect on your theory and line of thinking, to decipher the clues and understand the poem.

      • Will post answers to your questions when I get home to my laptop. Phone posts are too hard. But, yes to most of your questions. I thought it fit perfectly. I was confident, found the blaze, but no treasure. Maybe poor execution.

      • Hi Seeker, Well I’m home now and I will try to answer as best as I can. I’m not certain about the comment that “nobody to my uncertain knowledge has analyzed one important possibility related to the winning solve” unless he is referring to the word that is key. I believe I have figured out the word that is key and how it applies to the solve. The word that I used as the key led me to know the blaze. I believe I figured out the clues and also hints that are also within the poem. The last stanza made sense as well – although not until I was very close to going on my search. I had my solve first and then ordered the book. As I read the book, saw more hints that further confirmed my solve. I was getting more confident as the days passed. and as I stated before, I found the blaze. It had been vandalized, so either I am totally wrong, or someone got there first, or I got most of it right, but did not get the “look quickly down” and the rest of the stanza thereafter right.

        I went confidently – I got to the point where I climbed the approximate 200′ hill to get to the blaze and when I looked quickly down, there was no chest.

        I know Forrest is cutting back on the Chase, but I emailed him my solve so that if I was correct, he could let people know that someone had already been there and that the chase was over. That was how confident I was in my solve. Forrest is probably laughing at my confidence now. At least I hope he is.

        The part that I wasn’t confident about was when he said the chest is wet. I thought that I would understand once I saw the chest. (My solve wasn’t in any body of water obviously.)

        So, since I was able to look for only about an hour because of my health, I’m thinking that unless Forrest says that the chase is over, maybe I can partner up with someone who wants to be the boots on the ground person in Wyoming. “That is WY I must go.”

        • Really Janet?
          “as I stated before, I found the blaze. It had been vandalized”
          If you think the blaze could be vandalized, I would rethink your thinking.
          BTW, it’s: why I must go – not WY

          • I was thinking someone might say that. Also, WY was meant as a homonym, as in “listen good”.

          • OK Janet,
            We will go with the homonym.

            “So Wyoming is it that I must go”
            This does not seem to flow elegantly or eloquently.
            Just seems to me he is asking a question?

          • It does read as a question – and it also reads as a statement. Mr. Fenn is a master of the double entendre.

            Nevermind. I’ll stop posting.

          • OK Janet,
            That explains your nonsense postings perfectly clear.
            Ahahaha, You should spend more time on actual info than looking in the cracked mirror.

          • Janet, please don’t stop posting just because Jake seems to be very gruff with everyone when he doesn’t agree or understand what you are saying. If you want to partner up with someone, can you say Where are you from?

          • Jake: what makes you think the blaze “can’t” be vandalized? As far as I am aware, no where does Forrest make this implication. If it’s within reach of Human Fingers it can and will be vandalized ..


          • Brad,
            Forrest tried to think of everything.
            I would like to think the blaze is a permanent natural feature or object that will last 1,000 years.
            Everything can be destroyed but what are the odds the blaze being vandalized?
            Vandalization is deliberate & one would have to know it was the blaze.
            Then they would obviously have the treasure after looking quickly down.

            The person or people that vandalized whatever she thinks is the blaze is not THE blaze. She did not give details of what the blaze is & how it was vandalized.
            If it was the blaze & it was vandalized, how come she doesn’t have the treasure?

            ” It had been vandalized, so either I am totally wrong, or someone got there first,”

            Ya, someone got there first & vandalized the blaze, so no one else can get the treasure, that was already taken by the person that vandalized the blaze.
            That really makes a lot of nonsense to me…..

          • Janet, don’t go: there is nothing wrong with your “Why” = WY approach to interpreting the poem. It’s exactly the sort of wordplay that Forrest would enjoy. Could be right or wrong, but if it works with your other clue solutions, embrace it and see where it takes you.

        • Interesting .. how did you know it was vandalized? did you see the blaze before it was vandalized? Or only after? I too found a blaze that had been vandalized – but it wasn’t vandalized the first time I saw it ..


        • Janet,
          Don’t let me or anyone else influence you not to post… but do expect folks to respond in the positive and negative… some of those negatives may be very helpful… such as… fenn did say at one time the chest was wet, and at another time he said the chest was “probably” and yet at another time he said something buried 6′ below in the ground can still get wet.

          So if you’re using the one comment only that the chest has to be wet, check out the other comments to help.
          The other thing is fenn has made it clear .. imo.. he won’t tell anyone anything related to a solve.

          So when you said; “I know Forrest is cutting back on the Chase, but I emailed him my solve so that if I was correct, he could let people know that someone had already been there and that the chase was over.”

          That won’t happen, unless you can show proof of discovery. The chase will not be over until the chest is retrieved… fenn as made that very clear.

          Hope some of this helps.

    • Hi Jake;

      We are back. An exciting wonderful trip, but no treasure. Waters were still high, but we were prepared Dan and Chelan wore wet suits and used goggles. We brought LOTS of rope and they were harnessed in in case of a mishap – none occurred, but we were prepared.

      We scanned every inch of the area that I THOUGHT that it was in – NADA boo hoo. I am NOT giving up on the area, I will work on the problem, try to discover where I might have gone wrong, and try again in Sept/Oct.

      We saw 3 ewe’s and one young Rocky Mountain Sheep – then later on the way home we saw a Mountain Goat jump a guard rail, cross the road behind us, and scamper up a 45 degree hill like it was nothing. What a thrill – The Thrill of the Chase.

      Came home to the news of Forrest backing off a bit. Our prayers go out to him for a speedy recovery.

      Good luck to you Jake on your upcoming trip – TRY to STAY SAFE.


      • Hahaha JD,
        I wish I was there to video that.
        Sounds like a dangerous situation there to me although it would be a lot easier to put it into water than retrieve it.
        Sounds like you’re going to have to scratch this area & wouldn’t think it’s in fast moving deep water. The contents may be compromised.
        If you think it’s in water as I do, keep it shallow & the flow should be slow to none at all times of the year including flood years.
        Glad everyone is safe though.

        • Thanks Jake. All are safe. Am already busy reevaluating, and MAY have found my placid water spot just above the Falls.

          It will take work to have the poem tell me where to go, rather than me form-fitting my ideas into the poem. That is the KEY…Follow the poem, NOT me leading the poem to a desires spot.

          Take care JDA

          • If you get to the point a wetsuit, and, a harness is needed, your solve has gone waaaay off track. Imo.Goodluck on all your searches

        • By the way Jake, just to keep the record straight, I now owe you $8.00, not $7.00.

          Don’t worry, I will OWE it to you for the rest of my life before I try to cheat you out of it – HAHA


          • I might need that 8 bucks to buy a few box’s of tissue after I come back empty handed.
            8 bucks will not help pay for the shrink I’m afraid.
            Well, this will be my last trip for years to come searching for the treasure & probably forever.
            No vacation next year & will not attempt to go until late summer or early fall but think I will bow out gracefully after this one.
            All things must come to an end at some point…..

          • I wish you the very best of luck. You are a “Good Guy” – for whatever that means. If YOU do not find it, I hope that I do at the end of the month so we can all go about doing something different.
            …Whatever that is… STAY SAFE in Montana, and STAY SAFE in Florida with the “breezes a blowin'”


          • LOL JD,
            “Good guy” character is based upon perspective from others & I am not sure I fit the bill with the majority.
            The breeze has settled down here in FL & hope there are no more distractions from getting me there.
            7,600′ is my goal. That’s halfway between 10,200′ & 5,000′.

          • Jake;

            Glad you were not badly affected by the big wings.

            7,600 is a good elevation – Forrest liked being in the middle.

            As I said before – GOOD LUCK GUY


  34. Fins up,

    “If you get to the point a wetsuit, and, a harness is needed, your solve has gone waaaay off track.”

    I totally agree.

    f has said it is not in a dangerous spot, too many times to count. He would not have placed it in a location where a searcher has to suit up and have a “team” at the ready, just in case, because I am getting ready to put myself in a dangerous situation by diving off into some deep cold water. That is ludicrous to me.

    • It was NOT as dangerous as you are making it out to be. The water was cold, thus the wet suits. The safety line was just that, a safety line. Current was brisk, but not “White Water” like. You could swim up stream, against the current. Having the safety line let the swimmer ease back downstream, looking in every nook and cranny. Water was about 4′ in must spot. NO DIVING INVOLVED!!


      • JDA,

        I’m going to assume that comment was directed to me.

        To the contrary, I am Not “making it out to be” anything at all. The only knowledge I, or anyone else, has about your spot is what you are willing to share.

        With that said, what I Can say is this – It sounds dangerous to me. And it also sounds like there is an issue with high water just about every time. High-water can be dangerous water.

        I’m not here to critique your solve. I don’t know your solve. But I have a tendency to yell out “HEADS UP” when I see a fly ball heading for the bleachers.

        I’m not here to pick on you, or anyone else. You actually have said some things that cause me to set up and take note. Not things that would help me in any way, just things you have said that are really logical.

        I just totally disagree with you on this one issue of high water.

        I look at it like this : What would f have done? I don’t see him suiting up and doing the things that you are doing.

        He did it alone, at 79/80 years old. He did not take a team of strapping young bucks that would don wet suits to hide the chest for him.

        He has said you can walk right to it if you know where it’s at. I didn’t sign up for swimming/wading/diving off into some coldaxx water.

        You mantra is STAY SAFE . You seem to be chasing right along the edge of that one.

        I apologize if you find any of this offensive as it is not intended that way.

        Good Luck JD.

        • It’s ALL good. As I said, “It ain’t there” – so I am reevaluating and will try to find more tranquil waters a bit upstream. IF the poem leads me there. JDA

        • Very well said.

          Can you imagine mommy saying to junior … now put on your snorkel, Johnny, and wade out into the water; we know the chest is here in this current; just don’t slip on the rocks and bang your head on some underwater boulder; your head might get cracked open. (hehehehe)

          Ken (in Texas)

      • JDA
        After loosing Randy to the river I do not believe that you could be to cautious. Just keep in mind what you already know from f.

    • Roll Tide,
      Lets skip thoughts of dangerous or having extra things to bring “just” to play it safe, or more folks to be around should that rope [ oh sorry, safety line ] gets moving around and snags the legs or rocks or partially buried tree branch …

      I have to imagine fenn making two trips in this scenario.
      Walks with a heavy backpack to the hidey spot, strips down to go into 4′ of water to place, lets say the chest first, in it’s location so no one will come across it, while he redresses and hikes back to his vehicle, then stomps back to the hide with yet another loaded in the backpack, strips down again… retrieves a water filled 20lb plus chest from the 4′ [chest high] water… Puts all the goodies inside the unlock box, and again, back into the water with what fenn said; weights 42lb and is almost too heavy for one man to carry and the reason for two trips. Now going back into moving water to place it in the ‘precise’ spot…with an unlocked lid. And again, after all that, the 80 year old still needs to redress and hike back to the car.
      That wasn’t a smile on his face… that was a gasp for air.

      Sounds perfectly reasonable to me…

  35. WORTH THE COLD… Whenever I have gone canoing, i wade out into the water a bit before entering the canoe. To avoid rocking the boat, I wade out especially if someone else is along for the ride. This is the point where you might feel a little cold water near the HOB and wherever you exit the stream. The TC is expected to have moisture (from normal condensation) whether it is in a stream or not. This is likely why FF sealed the jar(s). So when FF says TC is wet, (IMO) this may or may not mean it is underwater.

  36. I have an 80 year old man that works for me, and its amazing what this slightly over weight man can do. He climbs stairs, lifts boxes, and climbs a 28′ extension to access roofs. IMO I think we will be amazed where ff hide the TC.

  37. I agree with you Ken. I also strongly doubt that the TC is hidden in water. Water is too variable.

    • I feel like over time some of the contents would just rot away in the water. The best way to preserve all of the contents would just be to bury it, where there are less elements exposed.

    • Dragon beads,
      Why take the time to log in, type out a message, and not add to or explain the reasons for doing so… You must have a reason, right?
      Explain warm is this fortune cookie?
      Indulgence is a the given name for a bronze chest full of items, that to the tough feels cold, under normal conditions.
      I warm meant for those items?
      Surrounding temperature can change that touch feeling to many degrees, not to mentions, shaded or sunlight direct on that location.
      “soon the snow will come but…”
      Is warm meant to be emotional in context?
      A metaphor?
      An idiom?
      a location that is constantly warm or only feels warm when it’s surrounding area is uncomfortably cold? because snow is relatively cold.

      If the post was meant to add or create a discussion… personally, I could use more info to why it was posted.

      • I think the interesting point of Dragon’s statement is the believe that it is vaulted in, either a Fenn made or natural made vault.

      • Seeker, Here is an “Odd-n End” for somone with answers. How can I find our more about Forrest(regretfully) shooting a mountain lion? Hopefully, not in a book because I do not have the privilege of ownership. Do you know any of the details? Thanks!

          • Mentioned within the blogs. I have no idea if it is true. Are you responding that the story is indeed in one of the books? Or are you just as curious as I am?

          • TFTW, titled “I wish I hadn’t”, pages 99-102. In part:

            ‘When I was diagnosed with cancer in 1988, I promised myself that I would never hunt again. I am not proud now to have killed that beautiful mountain lion and I wish I hadn’t.’

          • Thanks for your trouble. Do you recall if that was a simple mention or if there were more details about place/time, etc. Forgive me, I know that you don’t have to be concerned with this unless somehow it assists you, too.

          • He was hunting with a friend, Andy Anderson, in the 1960’s in Williams, AZ in White Horse Canyon. Only other cat shown (tiger) is in TTOTC, page 86, in a photo. Chapter titled, “My War For Me.” Caption reads: ‘Tiger skin nine feet long, Cung Son Special Forces Camp, South Vietnam. Don’t recall if there are others.

        • That was so kind of you. If this special memory was not in the 4-state area, then it can be eliminated from possibilities.

          • Glad I could help. It’s possible it may not have been in the four states, but there’s always a possibility this chapter shouldn’t be overlooked.

      • I agree with you, Seeker.

        Danker, I still tend to believe the key word to Dragon’s statement may be warm. Indulgence would be cold even in an outside vault. Unless? Any thoughts?

        • I think I know where the vault is pdenver and recently learned how to open it. Problem is, I’m a long ways away. Hoping to leave in about 700 hours from now, lol.

          • We’ve spent the better part of the last 100 days trying to figure out how it is hidden. (Now we do have gps to go off of, but didn’t take one the last time, face palm) The hidey space is not “locked,” but it has to be opened, that’s the best way to describe. : ) Save your best smile when you raise the lid. f

          • Found gps? That’s good news for you. I have none, just going by the poem and the book. Looking forward to see your smile.

          • pdenver, I did not find gps coordinates ‘in’ the poem. No anagrams, no codes, no cyphers, nothing to do with punctuation, no weird stuff, just straightforward locations after I understood the clues. You didn’t mention a good map and there are only subtle hints in the book, but you already know that.

          • Thanks pdenver. It’s always nice to chat with you. ; ) Hey my color changed! Now I’m red hot, lol!

          • After noon Kedar’s Mom
            It’s been a little while since we have spoken here. On your last search (last time we talked) what state where you in? Also, what type of vault are you looking at? I have found a stone vault (sort of) in Col. but it only had a stone type door in it. Believe me, when I seen it I thought for sure “indulgence.” The stone door was chiseled to fit the opening perfectly. I thought f had done it because it fit so well.
            Hope all is going well for you and I can only guess that your going back 29 days from today so we will call it October… What about snow? A worry or Not?
            Either way best of luck on your search and please be safe. I am one of your best followers…

        • pdenver,

          I like the thought of the chest being warm and snug, especially as it was considered to be FFs final resting place, but the poem (IMO) does not hint at that at all.

          WWH & worth the cold specifically.

          i do think however, that the chest is inside a vault of some type, not technically buried, not exposed to the elements and not in a cave. Perhaps a natural fissure large enough to hold a man and his treasure, maybe with a stone “cap” or something similar.
          I don’t have a solve or location, just thinking out loud really


    • Everything I write is my own opinion.

      Living in Colorado, I can tell you the snows have already come to some search areas. I think Indulgence will be cold and vaulted (broadly using the definition of something that protects valuables).

      Be safe out there and bring clothes for transitional weather.

      • Hey Kedar’s mom & pdenver,
        If you didn’t get the coordinates from the poem then how did you manage to get the gps that you have found and are any of the coordinates being used to open the vault? I guess it all sounds a little strange as f has always said “figure out the 9 clues in the poem and they will lead you to the T.C. and it will be there waiting for you to just pick it up and go”.

    • Thank you, SL. When I see this, I think about one of Mr. Fenn’s statements about not being associated with any structures. Perhaps it’s time to go back.

  38. I just got back from visiting my Brothers, the Bison, the last living descendants of the last wild buffalo herd left in the United States — eternally locked behind a fence between Evergreen and Golden ..

    It’s a shame we’ve destroyed such a majestic animal and taken away the Freedom to Roam the Wide Open Range from Yellowstone to Fort Worth, the way they used to ..

    For those of you looking for some fresh ideas to jumpstart your deciphering, or just need a relaxing break from the stress of your hunt, I can’t think of a better place, easily accessible to anyone between Santa Fe and Cheyenne, than RED ROCKS, COLORADO — It’s only about an hour from Denver and if you hike the trails and study the space around you, I believe there exist good ideas .. which might help you to clarify some of the Clues and reinvigorate your next search ..

    All My Best,


  39. I’m not too sure you can say for sure it’s not in a desert .. the Northwest corner of New Mexico is desert and the Southwest corner of Wyoming is desert .. both within the search parameters ..


      • Yes it is.Very Beautiful. But also Stark. I can see where some people are seeing “beauty”from a different perspective. Someone from East of the Rockies or Europe, who are used to lots of green foliage, might have trouble realizing or accepting that Forrest could hide the treasure in such a “brutal” environment .. But then I grew up in the Desert, so I love pretty much all Desert ..

  40. I got this from our field safety dude. I liked it so I’ll pass it along in the interest of everyone staying SAFE. Safety FIRST.

    The Ten Essential (10-Es)
    Developed by The Mountaineers, the 10-Es are items for your own survival, be that surviving an unexpected night in the woods, loud neighbors, or the rumbly tummy that is begging for the survival food. The Mountaineers have a great resource for the 10-Es (found here), with more discussion about each of the above elements (it can also be found at REI here and in many other places on the web)

    Navigation (map and compass)
    Sun protection (sunglasses and sunscreen)
    Insulation (extra clothing)
    Illumination (headlamp/flashlight)
    First-aid supplies
    Fire (waterproof matches/lighter/candles)
    Repair kit and tools
    Nutrition (extra food)
    Hydration (extra water)
    Emergency shelter

    We’re heading out on our “geology field trip” (wink wink) in less than two weeks ! ! !

    aside: Jake .v. Joseph
    We are going the same time from opposite shores of North America and have both narrowed it down to the same 7,854 square mile area. Hope we don’t get in each other’s way. Hehe.

    • You know where I’m going, it’s no secret.
      My checklist looks more like this.
      Smoke(s) & lighter
      Walking stick
      Bear spray

      Maybe we can hook up somewhere on the Gallatin…..

      • love the revisions

        I tried to be a bit vague since I have published my entire solution. Not that that matters–you know how folks are about “others’ solves”.

        Did you get the 7,854 mi^2 reference?

        It’s looking like we’ll arrive in Park Co around the 13th via the Ice Age National Scenic Trail (geology lesson #1). I’ll try and stay in touch as our field trip unfolds.

        • I did, Joseph. But only because March 14th at 1:59:26 is one of my favorite times of the year.

          • zaphoo OK I give, you out-cryptic’d me.
            Mar14 1:59:26? Don’t tell me if it’s part of your solution

          • Oh, thought for sure you’d get the Pi-day reference since you gave Jake a circular area figure (π X 50 miles squared). (smiles!)

          • Jake,
            From Forrest gets mail #2

            If you start chasing horseshoes you may go crazy, but it’s the thrill of the chase, remember?

            You’re not chasing horseshoes are you?

          • No, KM, I’m not chasing horse shoes LOL,
            Where did you get that from?
            You could take a horse on the trail near my spot but would not recommend it & besides, I think he said you would walk to it. That’s what I plan to do.

          • From Forrest gets mail #2. lol.
            You don’t seem concerned about how it is hidden. I’ve been racking my brains for 100+ days trying to know that critical info (without totally relying on gps) I think I know, but I was just wondering. : )

          • I am not sure what your getting at as usual KM.
            What does that have to do with horse shoes?
            Why would I be concerned how it’s hidden if someone is within 12 ft & could find it?
            I don’t like to put the cart before the horse.
            I just like to sling manure at the rock & then go there to see what actually stuck.
            Maybe you should just spit it out again…..

          • No subterfuge here, lol. I understood you to be searching west yellowstone, possibly where he and donnie went chasing lewis and clark.
            As far as how it’s hidden, I just don’t think it’s sitting in plain sight.

          • I don’t think it’s in plain sight either KM.
            I am not searching West Yellowstone. I am not sure where you got this either?
            I will be searching a part of WY for a friend after my search in the Madison’s & other areas I have made clear on here.
            Are you just flinging crap around to see if sticks?
            If you read any of my comments it would be clear where I am searching although you may not know geography to well.

          • Yea, that’s nice KM.
            So, what country are you searching in considering you don’t even like to give away the state. You have so much to offer.
            I understand we a lot of info to figure out when it comes to the chase & would better serve searchers to focus more on the chase than others.
            I remember your 5 minute search & was wondering if you ever got your hiking stick back?

          • Jake,

            I am waiting on others to go back and that is a little in the air due a health issue with my searching buddies. I know, nobody cares if you think you know unless you have the TC. Have fun on your adventure.

  41. I have often pondered the likelihood of folks from different eras having the same chance to find the trove… with the same information we all had from day one.

    TTOTC book and the poem within.

    Could Russell Osborne, Joseph Meek, Lewis or Clark , Ben Franklin, George Washington, etc. be able to use what was given us … if they had the book?

    FF is taking break… so I thought I’d ask what ya’ll think.

  42. A moment ago I saw Buena Vista, CO, on a map and thought it translates good as ‘marvel gaze.’ Just a thought.

    But my comment is to ask a question, about where Forrest thought to put Indulgence. Not exactly a question, more like a survey poll of opinion.

    When he was gravely ill, he thought to die with it at a place he liked from childhood. The TC was then a kind of tribute or homage to his personal sense of life or what’s glorious or Beauty, (judged through the eyes of the beholder). He describes that plan in TTOTC.

    My question is, Do you reckon he later changed the spot for his tribute, the spot to be sanctified, later when he was well and lively? Did he in further years think of a different (deserving?) place not necessarily where he’d have his own burial?

    So the spot’s NOT the kind of spot (childhood favorite) described in the book? Rather, it’s a spot he thought better of, living wiser in years after age 65? As for where his bones or ashes go, that’s a different matter.

    My question shows my own answer to it, (yes, he changed his mind, it’s not at a childhood YNP spot, it’s set for some other reason more important than his own lifetime), just surveying what others think?

    If Forrest’s mind DID change to think of a better spot for a different reason, in his style he wouldn’t beathe a word of it. People would never know he had cared, maybe.

    Or maybe he has definitely said he went through with his original plan?

    • Copied from the “Cheat Sheet” above:♦ Q: Are you willing to say whether the place of the treasure chest is the same as the one where you had previously plotted to have your bones rest forever? “Yes it is. f”

      I think that this answers your question. JDA

    • Wendi ,

      ” When he was gravely ill, he thought to die with it at a place he liked from childhood.”

      Do you have a quote or comment from f where he said this ? I don’t recall seeing that one.

      That would pretty much eliminate at least two of the four target states from what all he has shared with us. Would it not ?

      Anyone got a quote that supports that ?

    • Wendi –

      I see what you are asking…………I believe that when he first thought about hiding the treasure, he knew where he would hide it. That spot never changed and that was 15 years before he published the book. So, I don’t believe it was a childhood spot.

  43. Ben Franklin would have figured it out, with a little help from Thomas Jefferson. By the way, have you ever seen Ben Franklin’s ability to do “magic squares”? The guy was awesome at it. It’s quite interesting to read about—not that “magic squares” would have anything to do with the treasure search here—-I just mention it because Franklin was extremely bright. A genius.

    • Joe,
      I’m not really suggesting those folks… it can be anyone from their time line… the book is enough ( we’ve been told) to ” help” the average person with the clues on the poem.

      Is the poem solvable by folks 100 years ago..
      300, 400 years ago?
      Having the information in the book.
      Remember, fenn never mentioned any other suggestions until years later. GE, good map, geography might help. As well as the USA didn’t have the “state” areas or names of states during most of those folks era.
      Even, imo, ruled out US history as needed.

      Is knowing these things ” now” a must? If it wasn’t known from the book or poem? When this all started….

      • Seeker: for 300 years ago, that question is an easy one. Absolutely not: the poem would not have been solvable because the placenames on the relevant maps did not exist. I would say that for any date prior to the Lewis & Clark Expedition in the early 1800s, the poem would be unsolvable. Even 200 years ago, I doubt the map features that Fenn’s poem depends on had their present names, and in some cases may not have been discovered/explored yet.

        • Zaphod,

          That’s exactly one of my dilemmas. Is knowinng names of places even necessary?

          To say the easy answer to the time area is ,no, I can only reply by… are you now eliminating the possible correct solve simply because names of places on a map makes solving the poem easier.

          And again we didn’t really know maps of any kind before fenn suggested those. Nor geography, nor the RM’s
          Nor the four remain states or even if states are relavent… all anyone had was the book for reference.

        • Well, Seeker, Forrest says the clues are in the poem and the answers are to be found on maps. How do you propose to navigate on a map if you don’t have labels to describe the features on it? Since I know you don’t subscribe to the idea that coordinates are hidden in the structure of the poem, what good is a map to you? “Start on the CD, find a spot where three ridges come together, pick the closest lake, follow its stream until it crosses another stream, turn left, etc., …”? Could *you* direct me to an arbitrary 10-foot radius spot in the Rockies if all I have is the poem and a label-less map? Do I need to know the map scale? Do I need to know which way north is? Do I need contour lines (unlabeled with elevations, of course)? In summary, what pray tell is actually on your map that makes it a map as opposed to a picture?

          • Zaphod,

            Ya killin me here… you said ~ “Since I know you don’t subscribe to the idea that coordinates are hidden in the structure of the poem, what good is a map to you?”

            How do you “know” what I describe to? In-fact there is a post of a theory of mine that does have coordinates involved…on this site.

            You asked: “Could *you* direct me to an arbitrary 10-foot radius spot in the Rockies if all I have is the poem and a label-less map?” Yes is the answer, the question is, is it the correct reading of the poem?

            You assume that the poem ‘can not’ be solve without a map… that as labeled names… north, south, east and west can be figured out by common knowledge and looking at a paper map. The sun rises from the east, sets in the west, The big dipper point to the north star which is virtually stationary from our perspective… it’s not easy, but not impossible. but simply know where the sun rises to see a point in person or on a map gives you a direction. people have done this for thousands of years…

            Did Lewis and Clark have maps of all the places they went? Actually their the one who opened up the information for maps to be made, from their goal to find a north-west passage.

            The labels I refer to is naming of places and those have change over time… even in fenn’s time… especially in fenn’s time.
            Alaska became a state in 1959… at one time in the chase, some were working on solves involving Alaska. because all we knew from the start was ” the mountains north of SF. I’ll add SF was even asked to fenn if he meant NM. However, that to me was the obvious place because the book explained where he was living at the time he wrote the poem. But “mountain[s] were truly unknown at that time to be the RM’s… Yet, common sense would say.. and looking at any map, labeled or not, “mountain[s] plural, North of his location is a “range of connecting mountains”… no label, no name needed.

            So I ask… is simply looking for names of place that have changed names over the years by different groups of inhabitant, in different languages the correct way to follow the clues? or a force fit to make it easy?

            “Some searchers overrate the complexity of the search. Knowing about head pressures, foot pounds, acre feet, bible verses, Latin, cubic inches, icons, fonts, charts, graphs, formulas, curved lines, magnetic variation, codes, depth meters, riddles, drones or ciphers, will not assist anyone to the treasure location, although those things have been offered as positive solutions. Excellent research materials are TTOTC, Google Earth, and/or a good map.f” 

            In My Opinion… Latin being the base root of most languages implies ~ no other language needed other than the one the book and poem is written in. [ fenn said he looked up words… the poem is written in one language . imo its obvious the word he looked up were of the same, and for the “average person” to understand.

            Magnetic variations seems to be a none needed piece of information as well. Curved lines, depth meters, acre feet knowledge… poof. So why is names needed? It seems… imo… the book should be able to help almost anyone with the clues in the poem. as we have been told. and the reason for the question.

          • If you truly believe there are coordinates in the poem, then I will concede the point since a map at that point is superfluous. But how do you square that with Forrest saying you ~need~ a map?

          • zap-
            Forrest did not say you NEED a map. He said-
            “Some searchers overrate the complexity of the search. Knowing about head pressures, foot pounds, acre feet, bible verses, Latin, cubic inches, icons, fonts, charts, graphs, formulas, curved lines, magnetic variation, codes, depth meters, riddles, drones or ciphers, will not assist anyone to the treasure location, although those things have been offered as positive solutions. Excellent research materials are TTOTC, Google Earth, and/or a good map.f”

          • Oh, and don’t be so obtuse about my asking where north was — we were talking about maps, not orienteering, so obviously I meant does north need to be labeled ON THE MAP, given that your map has no labels.

          • My apologies, Dal: you are correct, he has never come right out and said you “need” a map. He has merely implied it. For instance in this reply to Mindy:

            “I have always said the poem will lead you to the treasure if you have the right map and know where to start. It is straight forward so there is no need to over-think it or look for commas and misspellings as clues. It was not written with the idea of fooling anyone.”

            That seems to suggest that the poem will lead you to the treasure ~only~ under the condition that you have the right map.

          • I think what he means by the right map is “a good map that includes the treasure area” .. for example: flight maps are broken into sections – they don’t cover the whole state, so, as an example, “if” the bronze beauty is hidden “50 miles south of the gas pump at Sinclair” and you have a Map of Yellowstone – you’re not going to find the chest ..

            Another chunk of my Copper Nickel,


          • Zap ~ yous said; “Oh, and don’t be so obtuse about my asking where north was — we were talking about maps, not orienteering, so obviously I meant does north need to be labeled ON THE MAP, given that your map has no labels.”

            I was not being “obtuse” ~ I answered how one could use a non-label map, even a drawing, of an area and still understand how to read it without names or even a key.
            Now, if the map is so bad, that one can’t figure out a what a mountain is, to what waters is, to what woodland is… Just use that map to start a campfire with.

      • Seeker—-good point. It really does depend on what the clues are about. Thanks for bringing up Franklin’s name though—that was refreshing.

        One point I did want to make. When someone says “Those things didn’t exist when I was a kid” we immediately think he is mentioning things that were invented in the future.

        However, the Incas didn’t exist when Forrest was a kid either—so it all depends on how you look at it. 🙂

        • Joe,

          I’m on my idiot phone so I don’t have the quote at the ready… fenn said the ” clue” were not around when he was a kid… but most of the places the clues refer to did.

          Now one needs to ask, are all the clues places or are most of the clues place?

      • Seeker, I don’t think that is an easy “no”. If we are to figure this chase could go on for another 1000 years, Didn’t he say it would be more difficult but not impossible? I may have that mixed with another quote so working from my idiot memory. If it could be found 1000 years from now, then why not 1000 years ago?Places change the same way. Now if we were talking 10,000,000 years that may be different. That difference would be tectonic plate movement.

        With him saying most of the places the clues refer to did, and, the only important clue is the last, then maybe the places are not that important. They would be more like “markers” on the path. There is clue 1, there clue 2, clue 4 there, there’s clue 8, who cares, it’s this clue 9 I need right. With us being able to solve this thing from home, then going out with confidence, we would just do what he would do, and that is walk right to it.

        With that being possible, then the places and there names are not really that important to the one with the correct solve, they could walk right to it. 1000 years ago or 1000 years from now.

        • Sorry Charlie, I just can not agree. Yes, most of the places that the poem refers to existed when Forrest was a kid, but not all. That tells me that at least one clue is probably not natural, but that it is man made. That one man made “place” probably has some kind of “name” associated with it. 100 or 1,000 years ago, neither the place nor the name existed.

          A person 100 or 1,000 years ago could not find that clue, and thus probably could not solve the puzzle, because the clues must be solves consecutively

          100 or 1,000 years from now, this same place may, or may not still stand. If it doesn’t, the likely hood that some kind of record WILL exist telling about this place, so even if it no longer exists as a real place, it can be located because of its history. Thus, a searcher 100 or 1,000 years down the road could still find it, and thus possibly solve the puzzle.

          Just the mutterings of an old fool. JDA

          • Come on JD, he never said the clues must be solved consecutively. And I don’t get that the ‘place” did not exist. Then are you saying that the ‘place” changed it’s name so it did not exist as it is today. What if there is no record, then what. You are assuming. If that is the case, then one can assume if you could find the chest 1000 years from now, most likely if someone had the poem 1000 years ago, they could solve. I mean, all you need is the poem, right? No where in the poem does it have the names of these places you talk about, so the names are your guess, just like they would be 1000 years ago to the one trying to figure it out.And again, who cares, only the 9th clue is the game winner. If you have hoB, who cares what WWWH is? If you have or know the blaze, who cares about: WWWH, hoB, or the meek hang out? If you know the exact chest location, who cares what a clue is, what their names are, or where there at? If you are at a pawn shop, selling off the gold, who cares where you found the chest at?
            The one who solves will know what f knows, and could walk right to the chest, whether he is in the year 3009 or 909. If I go back in time, I could walk right to the chest, right?

          • Charlie — let me give you an example of how someone in the future could solve Fenn’s poem, but not someone in the past. Suppose in the year 3009, the Yellowstone of today is called “Stinking Caldera”, and the inhabitants of the 31st century still have a copy of the original poem, and even the instructions that go along with it (4-state area, altitude restrictions, north of Santa Fe, blah, blah, blah). Now suppose Fenn had placed a clue in the poem that decrypted to that word (not saying he has — just suppose that he did). Not the place, Yellowstone, mind you — the actual *label* that place is known by. Well, thanks to their 31st century computer records, the future searchers would know that “Stinking Caldera” was once-upon-a-time called “Yellowstone”, and voila: they understand the clue.

            But what of poor Benjamin Franklin? Through his brilliance, he uncovers a clue in the poem with the mysterious name “Yellowstone” or “yellow stone”. But there is as yet no such place by that name. Worse, these comparative new arrivals in the New World have never laid eyes on the physical place that this label refers to. (For that matter, the Louisiana Purchase hasn’t even happened yet!) I’d say poor Ben is up sh*t’s creek and paddleless!

          • Dal,

            I think I get what Charlie is saying… but he can answer for himself. There is a slight difference to ‘must’ solve in consecutive order… to… the clues ‘are’ in consecutive order in the poem.

            Nit picking? Sure.
            But, if someone supposedly knows what hoB is, they don’t supposedly need to know WWWH was prior to it, but if they wanted to, they could reverse engineer back to wwwh.

          • Zaphod,
            When you said: “the inhabitants of the 31st century still have a copy of the original poem, and even the instructions that go along with it (4-state area, altitude restrictions, north of Santa Fe, blah, blah, blah).”

            This is exactly what I mean… we didn’t have that suggested information. The only items we had was the book and the poem within. The same information if Russel Osbourne or anyone would have if the book was available to them… no elevations, no not in Canada, no outhouse. The same info we had from day one.

            Fenn suggested GE as well… I wonder if Mr. Fenn [ father ] could have solved this poem with only the book and poem… and no GE in his life time?

            And I do like your example of “Stinking Caldera”… That would fit perfectly to anyone to understand, as the named area [ Yellowstone Park area] but no named needed. It’s about what the surround land is. This is the same for why some think “in the wood” to mean forest or woodland.

            Joseph Meek’s description of that very land and his travels through it was excellent, and no naming of it needed. So far… all a label map has done is, make it easier for us to understand what Meek described. But again are those labels needed for solving the poem. Or is it seeing / understanding the landscape.

          • Seeker: I guess it comes down to whether you believe the poem only contains descriptive language for places, or if it possibly contains actual proper names (other than Brown, which I don’t believe is someone’s proper name). I found a proper name in the poem that perhaps few others have, but it would have meant nothing to Ben Franklin. But if it isn’t just a coincidence, then this proper name would be essential to a correct solve.

          • Dal, Seeker said exactly what I was trying to say. Consecutive order yes, but JD said “solved”, and we both know f didn’t say that. That’s all I was “nit-picking” about.

            Zap, I hear you, and I understand, but, the question was could someone 300 or whatever years ago solve the poem, or find the chest. All I have to do is prove that someone could, then that answer would have to be yes. So, Ben Franklin is smart, he is able to come up with a system where he could draw lines on the Earth and calculate where he is by certain degrees,minutes,seconds. :), He has f’s poem and sees numbers, in turn he solves the poem without needing to know place names or anything, he has “coordinates” of where the chest is on the planet. Luckily, he does not go out and get the chest, (he liked to drink a lot and court the ladies), so the chest sits, standing the test of time, until now, his solve would also have stood the test of time. Viola, the answer has to be “yes”.

            Seeker, I quit as book keeper of quotes. I’m starting my own company. I could use a good “proof-reader”, if you’re not doing anything…lol.

            Okay, some clues many not be places at all.
            Is that information of none places held within the book? to help the average person with the clues?

            Ohhhh yes, in fact, it was one of your ideas that proves that. You ever wonder why he mentions how many gold coins are in the chest? Why not say, a lot, or many, nope, he gave us the exact amount. Why? For me. it’s support info to a clue. It’s a distance. The clue it helps is a place with no name. For me… it’s just a spot, location, coordinate, whatever. It provides support info to the clue that puts me there. The clue that gets me there is also, a distance, from the clue before it which was a directional clue.

            When you said ” the same ‘chance’ of decipher the clues?”, that’s different. No way would someone 300 years ago have the same ‘chance’ as we do.
            As far as f looking down the road, well, I see him thinking more in the line of, “what if this planet does have a bunch of idiots, and no one can solve my poem, I better put the chest in a place that will stand the test of time”. I don’t think he tried to look into the future and guess what might happen for any of the clues. He would know structures come down, land erodes, etc… That’s why I think he needed a back-up, or, coordinates. But that is IMO.

            are we forcing clues by hoping we need to know so much [ names of places included ] that even when at fenn’s location of the clues… we don’t see what it is we’re supposed to see?
            IMO, Yes, It’s hard not to. You bring up some good points that I think may go to the way side instead of being thought about and discussed. I might think the only great clue is the last, and solve the poem and everything will come, but an insight to how f actually thinks, especially regarding the clues, that will just bring one that much closer.

          • Zap,

            I don’t care if we disagree, by doing so, thoughts a merge, new Ideas… it can get stale in thoughts when thinking about the poem and such, when ya been at it for a long time.

            [ because of the long ladder to get to your post, I’m coping it here]
            you said;
            Seeker: I guess it comes down to whether you believe the poem only contains descriptive language for places, or if it possibly contains actual proper names (other than Brown, which I don’t believe is someone’s proper name). I found a proper name in the poem that perhaps few others have, but it would have meant nothing to Ben Franklin. But if it isn’t just a coincidence, then this proper name would be essential to a correct solve.

            I know what you mean by finding names in the poem that BF wouldn’t have known of… I to have found two possible names of locations [ have said them before so it doesn’t matter if I repeat them]. Isa Lake and Medicine Wheel. But I still wonder if I’m forcing myself, consciously or unconsciously, to see them. I have, and I’m sure you have, looked at this poem from every angle… my problem is, when I start seeing modern anything, maps keys, names etc. I stop and ask… are they truly necessary? or can the poem be read, lead to a specific 12’sq. spot, without them and without squeezing them into a spot, that makes me think it’s all forcing a solve to work for me.

            When I read the poem without all the after the fact suggestion… I seem to get a clear telling of the poem. and this is why I asked this question. But in all honestly, the after the fact information has been helpful to eliminate wandering around those types of reading as well. Yet, at times I ask these question so I don’t get stuck in my own little imagination.

            Even though we have buck heads here, [that’s meant as a good thing and as debating] it’s been helpful to me, given me thoughts… just hope it was for others as well.

          • Hi Charlie: long sub-sub-sub thread getting harder and harder to follow, but I’ll try to keep things organized here.

            “Zap, I hear you, and I understand, but, the question was could someone 300 or whatever years ago solve the poem, or find the chest.”

            Yes, that is a question. I contend the answer is no, but that’s just because I don’t believe Fenn has included geographical coordinates in his poem. You and several others believe that he has. I would certainly agree that if Forrest has secreted treasure chest coordinates within his poem, that people from centuries past or centuries future could find the chest. So, for the sake of closure, would your opinion change if Forrest told you in no uncertain terms that he did NOT put geographical coordinates of any kind in his poem? If you agree with me that under those circumstances, Ben Franklin would be screwed, then we have reduced the question to whether or not one believes map coordinates are encoded in the poem — which is a much easier question to debate.

          • zap, not quite yet, the Wyoming medicine wheel was there. 300 year old Ben still has a very small chance. Oh, I don’t contend f put coordinates in the poem, I contend there is a number system, and certain numbers that make up coordinates are there. Also, in the book. environmentalists to some(sum) degree. It’s a hint to the latitude degree. The poem, secret, first 3 letters. Just need to figure the rest for some seconds. IMO of course.

        • Charlie,
          You did mix a couple of quote together..So.. you’re fired as book keeper of quotes, Please talk to Loco for reorganizing…lol.

          But there’s another point you bring up… should it be harder to find the chest, because the RM’s are still moving, in the year 3009… The “most of the places” comment might refer to natural events. Example Earth Quake lake. But lets add the comment that a comprehensive knowledge of geography ‘ might ‘ help, and what we have is a ‘visual’ understanding of the land around us. Geography doesn’t study names, it studies the land surface. There is more to the study that involves inhabitants, including animal, fish and plants etc. But for this… I’m looking at land as the surface of the planet… water[s] included, climate, weather etc.

          The most of the places did exist when he was a kid… refer to clues… so I can surmise that not all the clues refer to places as well.
          If “most of the places the clues refer” to are places… some clues many not be places at all.
          Is that information of none places held within the book? to help the average person with the clues?

          Again, the point to my question… if someone 300 years ago had the book, the poem within, can by studying the book and the poem, give that person the same ‘chance’ of decipher the clues?

          They might be a bit surprised by jet aircraft and such, but could they still do it…? Fenn understands many tings have change in his time… he stated he was thinking many years down the road. So he must have taken in consideration that things will change from this point on… how do you places clues for those future changes and still be reasonable that the poem could be possibly solve 1000 years from now [ what would happen to the solve if the USA didn’t exist then]… “whatIF” someone with the book [reference and guide ] and the poem solve it 300 years ago? Would you look at the poem differently? So far it hasn’t been that easy “KISS” for us either.

          My point to this is… and charlie I think you understand my approach… are we forcing clues by hoping we need to know so much [ names of places included ] that even when at fenn’s location of the clues… we don’t see what it is we’re supposed to see?

          Hey, I’ll go with that ‘maybe’ fenn did something on site… I don’t see that from the poem or the book… but that, at this time, is a possibility. If someone could explain what that could be, that would last hundreds of years down the road… I’d be all ears.

        • Charlie, Look at Forrest’s body language when he says “the clues are in consecutive order”, lining them out with hand gestures.
          I’m sold. J

          • Joseph, maybe, but lining them out could be construed as a “trail”, and we all know that the 9th clue cannot fit that bill. I could sell you 8 clues, but it really would be worth nothing. Now, two million for the correct 9th clue, that may be worth it.

      • Seeker –

        you wrote,………………..

        Remember, fenn never mentioned any other suggestions until years later. GE, good map, geography might help. As well as the USA didn’t have the “state” areas or names of states during most of those folks era.
        Even, imo, ruled out US history as needed.

        You might want to take a look at what geography entails. There are actually 2 parts to it. One is the study of the land and the other is the study of people. History is greatly needed IMO.

        • I’m not going to look up all the definitions again and post them, I’ll just add this… the study of the surface of the world and its inhabitants. Not just people, the terms I have read say what ever species inhabit it. Animals [ including us ] water live, plant life, weather and climate… anything that has an affect on the surface of the world [ planet ].

          So fenn answered a Q&A which in part said. no to US history. I don’t think history is out of the question [ depending on what “history we are talking about]… I think the political side and ruling side of US history was ruled out… the question was, if I recall correctly ~ any level of US history needed. The US is, again, a “given” name for a piece of land, that is ruled by politics and government. Like I said in an example prior… Alaska wasn’t even part of the US until 1959. But some had involved Alaska because it wasn’t ruled out, eliminated until the Second BooK that help the map for the location of the chest.
          But it was still there. I could say the same for Hawaii, but I’ll go out on a limb and say… not in Hawaii either.

          I can also add, geography has sub-sciences to it… geology, oceanography, paleontology etc. But are we to use those as well? Comprehensive: complete; including all or nearly all elements or aspects of something.
          LOL, where does that leave us?

          • Seeker –

            I understand all of that……where does it leave us? Precisely where the poem leads us. First to the book and then to the hints and then to the history that FF tells us to look at.

          • Just need to know a little about everything. I think f has created many possible “JEOPARDY” contestants. Who wants to be a millionaire has nothing on the chase. lol, million dollar question, where is Forrest Fenn’s treasure? Doh, well thanks for playing, here’s a grape.

          • Inthechase,
            Interesting you say, ” then to the history that FF tells us to look at.”
            Obviously there is history involved with the stories, and even US history as well.
            I mean, we right this second are making history by being involved with this challenge. So there are two ways to look at this… using the book from the very start of the challenge and the history involved possibly being subtle hints, and the after the fact Q&A about any level of US history needed… No, just need to decipher the clues… Honestly, for debate purpose, this is a tough one. We have information in the book that at one point says usable, and another from the author of that book, that “seems’ to imply, not usable.

            LOL, maybe Briggs was more correct than we thought… L&C secret messaging back and forth with the president could be in play.

          • Seeker –

            Perhaps it’s just the word “history” that is not working here. All I am really saying is that “it” is a puzzle…one you must find the pieces too. I like to call them hints …and I call a clue something that actually moves one closer to the chest. But then maybe even that is misleading because at the end – the very end – it all becomes clear and you all of a sudden see nine clues.

    • Mikey-
      Many searchers have looked in that area. There are stories on this very blog about searching the RG in the Wild and Scenic area and many other locations clear down to Cochiti Lake.

      • Thanks Dal, I’ve read a few about the Rio Grande/Red River junction, but was more concerned about right at the border

        • Charlie-
          That’s where the Wild and Scenic area is. The solution I am thinking about was my very first. I used the start of the gorge at the NM/CO border as my WWWH and followed the clues down the river. I ended up at several different locations on the RG in several different slight modifications of the last few clues. But none worked out and after awhile I saw the folly of that particular WWWH and moved away from that area. I loved the gorge and all it’s fascinating attributes, geography and prehistory. I had a great many great little adventures down there but in the end there were more convincing areas for me…and apparently for others who have gone in there.

          • That is an amazingly beautiful part of the country. I could see my bones resting in that area for eternity.

      • No question. I just noticed it looked like you could walk to the edge and be about 200ft above the bottom. However it doesn’t look like there’s a way to get there with pushing the few mile walking limit, and that would just be one way

        • Mik…..

          I just took a look at FF’s map and that area is in white. I think we should be looking in the shaded areas. Yes?

          • Yup you’re right. It is not highlighted, but according to the BLM website it is part of the Rio Grande Del Norte monument

          • Mik…….

            It’s funny how we love to hold on to our selected areas…kinda like they are ours alone.

            In my journey I have never placed FF at that spot……….perhaps you know something I don’t. If so, do tell.

            I have been to Antonito via RV and via the train. Loved the train ride – a must do.

          • If I told you there was a petroglyph from around 1150 in the area would that PEAK your interest?

  44. Is there anybody in there? Just nod if you can hear me . . .

    I am having trouble wrapping my head around the whole “clues did not exist when he was a kid” conversation. Someone help me here.

    f said the CLUES did not exist when he was a kid. Period.

    f then said “most of the places the clues REFER to did”. Period.

    I think from that, we can safely say : 1) The clues refer to places. 2) Most, but not all of those places existed when he was a kid. 3) The clues are the references, not the places. 4) The clues/references are found in the poem. The places are not found in the poem. 5) The poem did not exist when he was a kid, therefore the clues did not exist when he was a kid. 6) We are looking mostly for places that existed when he was a kid, along with a couple/few places that did not.

    Where is the confusion? I’m confused.

    • I will buy most of what you said Roll.
      One of the things that bothers me is that some of the clues could be an object as in a weird looking ledge or huge boulder or rock formation that is in a place obviously but yet not labeled on any maps.
      I do think that most of the clues refer to places if not all.

    • IMO, FF is telling us that the clues in the poem were made up by himself as he polished his poem (clues did not exist when he was a kid) to describe places that did exist when he was kid.

      If he said something like “take it into the Land of Enchantment” than he could not claim the clues did not exist when he was a kid.

      Assuming of course that nickname was given to new Mexico before he was a kid, I don’t know the date, just an example.

  45. I think you are over thinking it. The clues did not exist when he was a kid because he hadnt written the poem.

    • I agree with you Leza. There is no mystery in what he said. He invented the clues. Of course they didn’t exist before he wrote the poem. The places they refer to existed when he was a kid and in my opinion MOST existed for ten thousand years before Forrest wrote about them. But at least one…in my humble opinion…came into existence after Forrest was in the military.

  46. ROLL TIDE … said: “Where is the confusion? I’m confused.”

    You’re not the only one confused by FF’s comment >>> “clues did not exist when he was a kid”. Of course they didn’t, he didn’t write the poem when he was a kid. So what’s the point of his comment?

    There is a bigger issue here than merely trying to interpret the word “clue” to mean “place” or something else. The bigger issue is that it is silly to take everything he says in such a literal way. When someone, anyone, talks/verbalizes, the word choice may be slightly different than what the person actually means. Why hold ff’s verbal comments to some rigid, literal standard?

    His writings are different. Writing gives him time to stop and think, to ponder. But in any of his interviews or when he’s speaking, I think we need to be more flexible in understanding his impromptu choice of words.

    The “clues did not exist when he was a kid” remark is frivolous, and I discard it.

    Ken (in Texas)

    • YUP, to much overthinking. It’s not going to find you the chest. It’s easy to overthink his comments. Like no human trail in very close proximity. Figuratively speaking, trail means clue. If the last clue takes you to the chest, that 9th clue could be considered a “trail”, in which case it cannot take you to the chest. So then what? Sometimes, a trail is just a trail…

      Who needs the trail anyway when you have the coordinates…? With those, who cares the name of some of the places? The “clues did not exist when he was a kid” remark is frivolous, I agree.

    • Well Ken, maybe you shouldn’t discard it quite yet. He did answer the clues question in writing: So does that make it less frivolous as you say?

      Did the same 9 clues exist when you were a kid and to your estimation will they still exist in 100 years and 1000 years?
      Thanks ~Ron

      Thanks Ron, thoughtful questions
      The clues did not exist when I was a kid but most of the places the clues refer to did. I think they might still exist in 100 years but the geography probably will change before we reach the next millennia. The Rocky mountains are still moving and associated physical changes will surely have an impact. If you are in the year 3,009 it will be more difficult for you to find the treasure.f


      • Actually, since the phrase “did the clues exist” arose, not from ff but from “Ron”, then I’d say Ron’s question is inane, despite ff’s tact in responding.

        There’s no way the clues could have existed back in the 1930s, since there was no poem back in the 1930s. The clues have no meaning outside of the poem.

        And yes I have confidently discarded that part of the exchange. The poem is difficult enough without introducing unnecessary muddle. 🙂

    • Ken,

      ” You’re not the only one confused by FF’s comment . . .”

      I never said THAT. Go back and read it again, real slow.

      My statement was addressing the confusion that seems to be held by those who still don’t understand his comment.

      My comment above, CLEARLY shows that I do indeed understand what he said and what he meant.

      I AM NOT confused by f’s statement. I am confused as to why so many others seem to be confused by his comment.

      It seems to be clear-cut and straightforward to me.

      • ” . . .most of the places the clues refer to . . .”

        does not equate with

        “most of the clues refer to places”

        That is the confusion I am talking about.

        I think f is clearly saying that the clues refer to places.

        • You said: “Where is the confusion? I’m confused.”

          I understand what you are saying … now. But your original comment was interpreted by other posters just as I had interpreted your original comment. So it wasn’t just me that misunderstood you.

          It’s no biggie. These messages come and go faster than a flash of lighting. What you and I are saying here will quickly be forgotten, and posters will continue to believe what they want to believe. 🙂

          And I will continue to ignore the exchange about clues existing or not existing when ff was a kid. That brief bit of trivia is not important to me.

  47. In the year 3009 it may be necessary to say “Klaatu barada nikto” to locate the treasure. Or something to that affect.

      • Hi Jake, I think you’re confusing War of the Worlds with The Day the Earth Stood Still (Harry Bates)…

        • Thanks for that correction Zap,
          It’s been a long time.
          Now, if you could only correct me on the trail to the treasure when I’m on it…
          Then again, if you could do that you would already have it.

    • I can tell you that right now – things have changed. In order to find what I would consider important …..you are going to have to go back in time on GE. I didn’t do it……I’m just reporting it.

      • Going back in time, yes – but not on Google Earth. It doesn’t seem to help, at least not yet. I’ve tried. Anything before 2009 is just too blurry to gather any knowledge — unless there is a “pro” version with better resolution that I am not aware of. I think the trick to deciphering the clues – and the “helps” in the book – is GE after 2009 (for satellite detail) and old paper maps that contain info that is not on any digital map – these I have found ..


  48. I know this sounds incredible, but in 2020 FF will be 90. At that time his memory will not be so good, so he is scheduled to take a time-machine (yes, they will be used in 2020) back to 2010 or so to remind his then self where he buried the Treasure. However, his then self will decide to choose a different location to bury the treasure, so after the year 2020 Indulgence will actually be located somewhere else. So either find it before 2020 or change your strategy.

    • Joe –

      Along with the Jumping Frog of Calaveras…..we used to say well, the TC was here………but now it’s jumped over there…….FF must be moving it. Oh, no — you moved it. who’s on first. If I ever have to change my strategy…..I quit. LOL

    • Joe, whatdya mean? He’s already used the time machine … twice. Why do you think he has a hard time keeping his answers consistent? [grin]

  49. Hi Seeker — bringing this thread out about 4 levels because it’s getting too far to find it.

    > Zap, I don’t care if we disagree, by doing so, thoughts a merge, new Ideas… it
    > can get stale in thoughts when thinking about the poem and such, when ya
    > been at it for a long time.

    I agree — our approaches disagree on a pretty fundamental level, but that
    doesn’t mean we can’t learn something from each other.

    On the subject of potential proper names hidden within the poem, you wrote:

    “I know what you mean by finding names in the poem that BF [note: Ben Franklin, for those not following along] wouldn’t have known of… I to(o) have found two possible names of locations [ have said them before so it doesn’t matter if I repeat them]. Isa Lake and Medicine Wheel. …”

    Okay, you’ll have to refresh my memory on where/how you found Medicine Wheel — I do remember the name, I just don’t recall the methodology. But I do remember how you got Isa (Lake). This one I feel was very weak because the connection involved only 3 letters, in reverse order (AS I –> ISA), and two of those letters are in the top-5 most commonly occurring in English. Presumably you elevated them in significance because they were the first 3 letters in the poem, but this is venturing into the realm of confirmation bias. Many four letter words — appearing in normal order — can be extracted from the poem by unimaginative means (e.g. BAIT, GAIT, TWIG, WHAT, etc.) which have an order of magnitude more statistical significance than ISA thanks to the additional 4th letter, and yet are still probably nothing, so I think you’d have a hard time making the case that “ISA” is a stand-alone, unambiguous clue word in the poem.

    Maybe your Medicine Wheel find is less probable by random chance?

    • zap, my post waaaay up there should be here, Medicine wheel is very good support info. I use to get stuck with it, until Seeker reminded me. Used what I think I know now, and answered all my questions. Seeker may not see my way of deciphering that avenue, but for me, very nice. When I do get out someday, that spot it points me too may just have a bell 3′ deep. The one on page 137. But that’s just imagination, don’t think f went way out there and buried a bell also, but who knows. If JD can play in wetsuits, I guess I can dig.:) Time to hibernate.

    • Jake,
      This is why disagreeing can help us learn something [remember, the goal here is not to learn something new so to speak, but how to interpret ‘this’ poem and its clues]

      “As I have gone…” compared to “I’ve done it…” We have been been told to analyze the poem, words were deliberate, etc. What’s is it about these parts of the poem that is not constant? I can see the poem starting; As I’ve gone… to work just as well if not better when reading out loud. Was this intentional on fenns part, for us to catch? I also have thought about mirrors to image from the book[s] and even SB’s…Fenn talks a lot about mirrors, shadows [ same as a mirror image ] ~ so what is a mirror image, basically the exact opposite of an image. But, there are many words in the poem that are exact opposite, and in almost ever usage of those words… example.. warm to cold. So if I can see all those opposite meaning and usages, in the words, why not apply that to the words itself?… fenn uses words such as there’ll, you’ve, I’ve, but “As I have” ~ to start off, at the beginning, first place in the poem. [ know where to start?] [ start at the beginning?]
      Most will disagree that this would be messing with the poem… I say heck no… the poem is explaining the words, their usage, their placements for a reason. This is not what i call messing with words, but more of understanding the poem just might tell you how to solve itself.

      So Jake, have you ever looked at the poem this way? Analyzed the poem, think about the words, and why they are where they are how they are spelled out and how they work with words in other parts and words in the poem this way?
      I’m not sliding letters, changing words with other rhyming words, skipping 3 stanzas, assigning numbers to letters, using the book to find an answer, etc etc…. you may disagree with this thought that the poem holds all you need to know… but could learn something from it that might spark a thought you didn’t have before.

      I won’t bother with the Med. Wheel explanation. Give it a try yourself. Don’t guess that a word or words seems to say Med Wheel… **let the poem explain it**. It’s difficult ~meaning complicated, but not easy ~ as one meaning of straightforwards, but straightforwards as in all honestly if we use “all the information” in the poem.

      So I asked this question; what seems more logical… allowing the poem to tell us what we need to know… or… guessing / googling all kinds of research material that might refer to places and stomping out all those thousands of possibilities to find the chest, by nothing more than a process of elimination?

      We can disagree and possibly learn something at the same time… if we keep an open mind.

      • Note; My bad…this reply was meant for Zaphod’s post… but hey, Jake might learn something from Zap’s and my bucking heads as well… Zap, Coffee’s on me if we very get the change to meet, I’ll even throw in some Ibuprofenn to.

        • Where were you born, Seeker? Where do you live now? Says a lot about people to know where they started and where they ended-up. I just want to put your wisdom in perspective. Quite the intellectual. Finally, you indicated an inability to get out to explore for yourself. If you share a little more, maybe some of us can assist.

          There are 3 questions here (only 2 question marks) so please don’t forget anything…you are appreciated!

          • LMN.

            If you’re talking about where someone is educated at, that’s one thing.

            My knowledge is another. I learned by hard knocks… like, when I was 2 years old I could stand under the kitchen table… but knot at three.

          • I relate. Like you…me also at two…and knot at three…and a year later, things where looking up four me.

            Wisdom does not come from education, so this was not an education question. “We are born where genes placed us and end up where jeans take us.” It’s our story – who we are.

            Now, you completely evaded my questions.

            So, me first. My personal answers are IN, FL and even though I am 57, have 11 year old twin daughters and a bad knee, still have the drive and energy of 10 men. Plus, I like to help people (when possible).

          • LMN,
            My personal life is my own. I choose carefully when and where I tell of it. But since I have stated some of what you inquire, I’ll fill in some of the blanks, because you kindly asked.
            I’m from NY. No, not the city. There is more to NY that the five boroughs… some folks need to have that explained for some reason. I presently reside in TN. Middle TN to be more precise. Folks here seem to get lost if they don’t know west TN from east TN to Middle TN. They even have three stars on the state flag to help them know this. As to Children, Kids should be seen and not heard… so I won’t tell you I have two sons…
            I move to TN for medical reasons. NY’s politic, taxes and ridiculous laws were driving me crazy. I soon realized that TN’s politic are just as ignorant, taxes [ for lack of a better term ] are better? And the Laws are just as dumbazz… only different.
            But back to the intelligent factor of where someone is born and lives… I have been known to for sh:ts and Gr:ns to play with those IQ tests. I normally do this after my HoneyDew list is finished. I Dew the list first because I like my sweet-things the best. My score floats around the mid 130’s. I say float as to, each time I take one of these tests have a different score. I have come to the conclusion that intelligence if not measurable or matter where one is from. I see these test as an old fashion gun fight. Both participants are the same age, same tools of life, can aim and shoot and hit the bulls-eye. IQ test are the same, John Doe answers 20 question correctly, as I do. Yet John finishes one minute before me… I mean I… or is it, myself… Anyways, So supposedly John is smarter or I’m stupider. But all this really says is, John is a bit faster retrieving the information, even though we both correctly answered the question. Just like the shootout, John is a bit faster, so I’m just as smart / good as John. I just can’t tell you I am, or was.

          • Pretty much all states have stupid laws, some more than others – having lived in 20% of them I have yet to find one that doesn’t – it’s just a matter of which ones you want to tolerate and which ones you can’t shoot .. personally, I tend to aim for the ones with the smallest human pop density possible that isn’t frozen 59% of the time ..

          • Janet (I think it was you)

            Got a message about Vandal and would like to hear more. But somehow lost it and it’s impossible to try and find anything on this thread. Have been traveling last few days and having difficulty with connecting cells ..

            I don’t have a clue how to pm anyone here, so call me at BradHartliep gmail or pm me back and maybe I can figure it out ..

            If you can, describe the blaze, what it looked like before the Vandal, or the kind of damage and the area around, direction of travel, etc. and we’ll see if it’s the same place. There is evidence of one other person being there ..

            I will be Walkabout/ GoneNative/ Vision Questing next 3 weeks or so but should be back south of the Hubble Trading Post and on the Stage out of Lordsburg some time end of September ..

            If a One-armed Bandit conjures up a slot machine, you’re not from Tucson ..

            I can’t prove it, but I’m pretty sure Robert Redford ‘s Boots and Donald Trump’s Hair come from the same animal ..


          • Seeker: I went to college in upstate NY, so I know what you mean about having to qualify “New York” whenever people ask. If you enjoy toying with IQ tests, you should try some of the ones that are specifically designed to measure folks who are a couple standard deviations (or more) above the norm. Tests meant for the average Joe or Jane do not have enough ceiling to differentiate someone with an IQ of 170 from one at 140. And on the issue of speed: higher-end tests typically do not have a time-limit and there is no “bonus” for answering more quickly. You’ll either solve them in an hour or so, or you’ll never solve them in your lifetime.

            I suspect Forrest’s challenge is a bit like this. He thinks the average person can solve his poem, but I fear this is unlikely (and so far the evidence supports this fear). Since Forrest knows the solution, he is actually a poor judge of how solvable his puzzle is by others, whether they’re average or otherwise. Perhaps this is why he has provided additional information not found in the poem to help people along — he underestimated how hard it would be with the poem alone. So he gives us the mountain range, lops off Canada, Utah and Idaho, gives us an altitude range, eliminates structures, dams, graveyards, mines and caves, and gives us hints about how far off the beaten path he hid the treasure chest. That’s an awful lot of extra information not found in the poem or book, and yet here we are still stumped. Just slightly less stumped than we were 5 years ago.

        • Ya, more coffee needed.
          I thought it was weird you were asking what I think when you guys were heavy into the discussion already.
          You know my POV – don’t overthink or overwork it.

          • Jake, over think in this situation is… imo.. the comment to over complicate the poem by knowing Bible verses. Codes, Latin etc etc.

            Yet we are told to think; examine, arrange.
            We are told to analyze; examine methodically. Told the challenge is difficult; complicated.

            Am I over thinking or could it be you might be over simplifying the clues?

          • Funny how you mention over simplifying the clues Seeker.
            So maybe Forrest is telling us the clues are simple but yet not overly simple.
            That’s right he said OVER simplifying the clues & not simplifying the clues.
            If he said SIMPLIFYING the clues then I would think they are the opposite.
            Pretty simple for me to understand.

          • Seeker- Just my regurgitation of what f has said… I think you are right, but just add a dash of imagination in there too. 🙂

            “Whoever finds the treasure will mostly earn it with their imagination.”

            “If a person will think, they can find the chest; but the secret is to think and analyze… they can find the chest.”

            “The person that finds it is going to be a person who thinks and plans and has an analytical mind and uses logic, not someone who has a hunch.”

            “…well it doesn’t take…you just have to think the right things.”

            And I find the definitions interesting…

            : a science that deals with the principles and criteria of validity of inference and demonstration
            : the science of the formal principles of reasoning

            : to study (something) closely and carefully
            : to learn the nature and relationship of the parts of (something) by a close and careful examination

            a : to exercise the powers of judgment, conception, or inference : reason
            b : to have in the mind or call to mind a thought

            : the ability to imagine things that are not real
            : the ability to form a picture in your mind of something that you have not seen or experienced
            : the ability to think of new things

          • No doubt each word can be used independently or individually.

            That’s the challenge… imo. To understand not only what a clue is, refers to, deciphering them… but understanding how to read those interpretation within the poem as a whole unit of information.

      • Seeker, you are a hoot. I feel like I have learned a lot form you. Now know the teacher. Thanks for the exchange.

      • Seeker, don’t count out the letter values just yet, keep the thought in the background.

        Again, I agree with your thought. It’s not messing with the poem. To mess with the poem first, without being instructed to do so is messing with the poem. To just discount words, move letters, skip stanzas, etc, goes against what a poet and wordsmith would do, IMO.

        There are instructions, simple enough to see, but so many seem to just overlook what is right in front of them. There are instructions in the words, the words themselves, and IMO, even the letters. Why use the exact words he did? It’s the word, what is in the word, the sound of the word, the spelling, etc…How else could one SOLVE the poem. Now, if this was your poem and your chase, we would all be screwed. Lol.

        We need to ask the right questions if we are going to get the right answers. The exchanges and critics are the most helpful. Without it, we will learn nothing. If we don’t ask why he has made these after comments and what they are saying, we close off the possibility of more hints. WWWH, why say “nailed down”, “stay home”, and “play Canasta”? Something in that statement will help in identifying WWWH. Why put so much emphasis on how important that first clue is, and then say, paraphrasing, ” if you have home of Brown, why care about WWWH”? It must be in what and how he made the statement. It’s not overthinking, it’s just thinking. Whoever you are, does your WWWH have something to do with nailed down, staying home, or playing Canasta? If so, you may be right.

        If you just need the poem and that is it, you limit yourself. The poem is hard enough, we know f can’t just sit by and observe. The pressure of just wanting to give little hints and have some fun must be intense, or he wouldn’t do it.

  50. I’m responding to a post from Mr. Fenn, over on MW blog.
    Been stuck in “moderation” for 2 days. Not very timely.

    Forrest Fenn says:
    August 31, 2016 at 10:41 am
    Please don’t count me out yet. I’m just easing back a bit and walking much more than sitting. It was a needed change and the effects are already being felt. Tesuque dug a mushroom and ate it without knowing the rules. The resulting seizure lasted a few hours, but now she’s back to chasing chipmunks again. Hopefully she learned from the experience. f

    David here says:
    August 31, 2016 at 3:30 pm
    Your comment is awaiting moderation.
    Mr Fenn,
    I find taking my dog (family member really) for a walk is the best of medicine.
    I leave his leash curled up at the door. If I am not timely enough he gets it and drags it to me,
    hey I’m talking to you.
    Thank you for your words of assurance written here.

    Best Regards
    David here

    • David here,

      Thanks for that. I’d not been back to Jenny’s since f left to go to lunch.
      Your above post opens the door for me to comment on a few things I’ve noticed lately.
      I shall start with your above post.

      “don’t count me out yet”
      countdown. ring my bell.

      “This day has been a long time coming.”

      “you make my hourglass flow a little slower.”
      hourglass/countdown. time slowing down. slow time. time running out.

      “Save your best smile until after you raise the lid.”
      That makes me see red. “see red” = mushroom. mushroom=blaze.

      “dug a mushroom”
      dug=comprehended.( Yea, I can dig it man, I get it.)
      identified a blaze.

      “she’s back to chasing . . .”

      $64 question :

      Who is “SHE” ?

      • What was the MOREL of that story/comment ?

        This is how I see “not deliberately placed”.

        • And lest we forget . . .

          “. . . I don’t need to see it . . .”

          . . .in response to a question from “The Count”.

  51. I think you don’t need the map to figure out where warm waters halt. It’s “the answers I already know” that are important Imo. I think we already know the answer to WWWH but it’s so simple that most don’t realize they know.

      • Puzzled is probably looking for the answer “Yellowstone” — whether it’s the right answer to WWWH or not is debatable. But it’s certainly an obvious choice that works better than 99% of the other theories that have been tossed out there.

        • There could be alot. But I think WWH is a general idea from the beginning, and then it starts to factor in real meanings when you see what is hidden in the poem. Yellowstone among’st many other locations are a generality of WWH. But the end will be the factor is you started in the correct place. Once you have completed the whole circle.

          If WWH started in Yellowstone, that doesnt mean that you end in Yellowstone. The ending could just be a metaphor for yellowstone. I think there will be a person who sees this when they start to figure out what the clues and hints mean..

          Yellowstone is obvious. while obvious is a simple, there is still the difficult part of understanding what obvious means in Fenn terms.

        • Yellowstone is not my answer. Not sure why you think that is my answer. I don’t think it is WWWH. All I’m saying is that in my opinion, and based upon what I think WWWH is, I don’t think you need a map until you work through more “answers I already know”

      • Actually, now that I’ve revisited Puzzled’s past hints about her WWWH, it’s definitely not Yellowstone for her. I’m more inclined to go with something related to tears — eyes (ojo) or cheeks, perhaps. Something I child would point to (but not necessarily know where to find on a map).

        • zaphod, None of those ideas are what I believe WWWH is. And while I do think many children know the answer, most wouldn’t think of it any easier than adults. I think it’s something most people know but they just don’t realize they know. It is something that you would say, “why didn’t I think of that”

        • Hi Puzzled, well I guess your WWWH will have to remain a puzzle, which is fine. I gave it a shot. If other folks’ WWWH’s are any indication, it’s likely I won’t find yours as compelling as you do. And if your WWWH happens to be in New Mexico (for instance), then I have spent too much time thinking about it already.

    • Puzzled,
      I have put thought into things you have said… you know.
      I have a counter thought, just for grins. Most think, wwwh is a type of action, or even a non action ~ as to a dam that stops water line of thinking [ just an example we know a dam is not involved]… However, When I thought more about your theory I was wondering if you ever considered, waters reaction on creating something differently. Like you said, WWH might not be on a map, but what it does, might be the clue that breaks the poem open… such as hoB might not exist if not created by the waters…line of thinking.
      You may understand where I leading on this… as your thoughts might line up with it better than others.

      • I definitely agree with that idea seeker. I think we are looking for evidence of water “creating”.

  52. I’ll post this for those that may want to try something else. Letter values. If not interested, don’t need to read further. It’s obvious the poem needs a number system, this may be one way. From the poem:

    tre as e
    s b o
    th’ll be (add le up)
    w is e and fo
    bl az e
    c as e
    g az e
    page dce
    why is it
    some(sum) all and l is ten(10) go odd
    efft will be w

    That is all the info you need to solve all the letter values. You can easily see it in the poem. At first glance, it’s obvious that not all the letters are there. You’ll figure it out. When you are done, add up the values to see what you get. Now you will know why a butterfly is a flutterby, who he’s talking about when he talks about Captain Kidd, Hopalong Cassidy, why he spelled knowlege like that, solve the med wheel, maybe find a bell, figure out the key, find the area code, know the degree in “environmentalists to”, and more.

    Like I said, not for everyone, just something different. The questions you will have of how you arrived on the above as the guide is by just following the instructions given in the words and letters. I just tried to save some time.

    • There is something common with Hopalong Cassidy, captain kidd:
      The name William. There must be something significant about that name.(apart from being his father’s name as well)

      • d=1, William Kid 1 = Skippy, Hopalong Cassidy played by actor William Boyd= William Boy 1 = Skippy.

  53. I need some assistance.

    Someone on the blogs was talking about a “positive” solve using numerology…
    I’d like more information on this “positive” solve to see if I’m in the same area or have done something different.

    Thanks JC

    • John – I have serious doubts about numerology to help solve the poem. Here is comment that Forrest made at one point and he lists a number of things that will not help. In the reply he also states that some searchers overrate the complexity of the search

      “Some searchers overrate the complexity of the search. Knowing about head pressures, foot pounds, acre feet, bible verses, Latin, cubic inches, icons, fonts, charts, graphs, formulas, curved lines, magnetic variation, codes, depth meters, riddles, drones or ciphers, will not assist anyone to the treasure location, although those things have been offered as positive solutions. Excellent research materials are TTOTC, Google Earth, and/or a good map.f”

      In my opinion the answers are much more simple than they are complex. I think the answers are in front of us but it takes the right amount of imagination, the poem, the books, a good map, and the ability to pay attention to the small things right in front of us before we pass by.

      • Hear me all, I agree with you. People are over-
        complicating the method of solving the poem
        correctly. My method is pretty uncomplicated,
        but did require imagination. Maybe “imagination”
        can be treated as a word that is key; it’s quite
        important to the solve.

        The above is just my opinion. Yours may differ.

        Good luck to all searchers. Please be safe.

  54. Thanks guys for the response….

    That really didn’t answer my question…
    I’d still like to know about the solve using numerology… regardless if it helps find the location of the chest because it could have some useful information I may have missed… I’d also like to double check my work against it to see if I’ve done the same process as the other numerology solve… But I have no information to compare my work against and I’ve only been doing this 2 years, so I’m still a little wet behind the ears… so, forgive my persistence…

  55. It just got deleted and apparently banned from posting
    So here it is. The first trip is anagrams

    As I have gone alone in there
    See a vane hooligan enter hi

    The answers I already know
    Awkwardly snore anise

    The second trip is steganography

    Look quickly down your quest to cease
    Kick door to cee

    Every single line has at least one anagram
    And every single line has steganography.
    They are hints to the location and hints about the circumstances surrounding Forrest

    • Tim wrote:

      Every single line has at least one anagram
      And every single line has steganography.
      They are hints to the location and hints about the circumstances surrounding Forrest

      ……how do you know you know this is a fact????

      • I think you mean Cryptography. Steganography differentiates itself by being an object or text that is NOT an object of scrutiny. For example if F had written a book on furniture building , or a shopping list, that was secretly a treasure hunt that would be a form of Steganography. Saying “here’s a poem full of nine clues that lead to a treasure” negates it as steganography. Not trying to pick your words apart, just pointing out there’s a big difference

        • Steganography: the practice of concealing messages or information within other
          non secret text or data

          • Tim — Right. And the poem is said already to contain secrets. Steganography is when you hide a secret message somewhere nobody would be looking for one. Security in obscurity. The only one who knows there’s a message to find is you and sender. Here we all know there’s clues to find in the poem.
            You’re talking Cryptography. Mask Cryptography into plain obscure texts and its steganography. It’s easy to understand once you get a grasp on it, lots get confused at first.

        • Timw, I don’t want to jump on the hate train (mostly because I believe Forrest has hidden some stuff as anagrams), but how about you provide us with just one line from the poem that is anagrammed that is proof you solved them?

          Just go through and pick one line ( you say every line has it) that you don’t think reveals anything of great importance… and show us that you have indeed found something worth looking at.

    • Timw: if you start anagramming every single line of the poem, you can make it say WHATEVER you want. Do you know how many permutations there are in a typical 21-letter line? Over 51 million trillion (many of which will be duplicates, of course). Of those quintillions, there will still be literally millions of combinations that produce “readable” text. Trying to anagram that many letters is a fool’s errand.

  56. You are right. Many possibilities, but when the anagram matches the line you are working with, gotta think something is there. Try it, you might like it.

  57. I did. Go up the line of messages and you will see. Here’s another
    So why is it that I must go. It is my show suit.

  58. Another question…

    Can someone provide me a link to the information where Forrest has said the treasure was below 10,200 ft and above 5000 ft?

    Greatly appreciated


  59. There is a State line, really two state lines in the west end of Yellowstone. It’s very near the entrance. Wonder how many times Forrest, as a kid, jumped from side to side saying, now I’m in Wyoming, now I’m in Mt, now back to Wyoming , now back in Montana again…..

  60. We pulled into the driveway at 2:53 this morning, having driven straight through on our return from BOTG #6.
    This was our agreed-upon final chase. But my crew has heard that six times now, so the best I got in the form of any agreement was three heads shaking yes and no at the same time while all were in unison with a few interspersed “mmhmm”s here and there.

    We skinned our hearts and skinned our knees this time. We gave it our very best effort. But none of us are up to doing it again.

    My 13 year-old g-girl and I did all of the searching this time, while 9 year-old Bub and mom sat nearby talking, singing and keeping an eye out for any sign of Yogi or Boo-Boo, as we’d found plenty of scat on the way into our location.

    Me and C. , the 13-yo , searched a location we had both agreed was the perfect spot. The poem in it’s entirety led us to this location. She was a real Trooper, we were both, at times, crawling on our hands and knees, searching every square foot of our interpretation of the final clue.

    A subsequent visit to the closest micky-d’s for a couple burgers with extra-onions and some world-class fries, led us to agree that we still believe in our solve, and being that none of us want to make the trip again, maybe we should solicit someone local to assist.

    This is actually a discussion that arose after about our third trip, if I recall correctly.

    We are not willing to go public with our interpretation of the poem as we all still firmly believe in it and don’t feel that would be wise at this time.

    We have employed everything at our disposal in reaching this point. I have sat at this computer for seven, yes 7, months non-stop, researching. Most of those days were in the 10-12 hour range, but a lot of them were up to 16-18 hour days. I have been serious And dedicated.

    But, it’s time to either partner up or quit.

    You got your ears on, Cynthia ?

    What I will give you :

    My interpretation of the poem.
    Hints from the book that I will reveal as physical, tangible, locations/objects.
    The #1 tool I employed to reach my results. It is straightforward.
    The right map. It is detailed.
    I will answer any and all questions that you may have concerning my solve. (Although, I may choose to answer some of those in a particular order, so as to not put the cart before the horse.)
    When I give you wwwh, you will think “okay, why didn’t I think of that?”
    When I give you home of Brown, you will slap your forehead.

    You have not seen a solve as unique and as simple as this one.
    You will “see” how everything fits.
    You will see it is all consecutive and contiguous.
    You will understand “a flashlight and a sandwich”.
    You will understand the mind of a 13-year-old.

    You get it all, to the best of my ability.

    What you will give me :


    Think it over. If you’re interested, I hereby give Dal permission to release my email addy to you.

    This offer is only open to Cynthia, at this time.

    • Should we assume that since this offer is only open to Cynthia at this time, your solution is in New Mexico?

      • 10-4. Congratulations on your persistence — I do believe that’s a necessary component of an eventual successful solution. Sounds like you’re in at least the 2000-hour club, and did it in half the time that I did!

    • Okay Cynthia, I’m gonna put my money where my mouth is and nickel-up.

      I’m willing to throw this out there because I don’t see it leading anyone to my search area without knowing the rest of my solve.

      “If you are brave and in the wood . . .”, I believe to contain the final clue.
      A tighter focus gives me “in the wood”.

      “We’re not out of the woods yet”, comes to mind. Meaning, we are still in some sort of difficulty. To me, “in the wood” can be read as “difficulty”. That works for my solve, but I’ll go one better than that.

      When I was a kid, I was all the time hearing ol’ timers use the phrase ” aww, that’s just in the wood” when describing any blemish or imperfection that someone had questioned. I can even remember the used-car salesman using that term when I was looking at some scratches in the first car I bought.

      So, “in the wood”, can also be saying “blemish”. And that also works really well for my solve.

      Does f hint at, even slightly, either of these interpretations, anywhere ?

      Yes, he does.

      Scrapbook 49. Forget all the talk about the spices. Go straight to the meat-and-potatoes.

      “When I sat and pulled the drawer toward me something sharp on the bottom scraped a gash on the wooden tabletop. I’ll try to fix it with wax before my wife gets home.”

      Now, picture this. f uses wax to fill in the gash before Peggy gets home. Peggy gets home and sets the groceries on the table and notices the gash anyway.

      Peggy : Honey, what is this here? I’ve never noticed it before.

      f : aww, that’s just in the wood . . . (he has passed it off as genuine. That is HUGE later on in my solve).

      Here are a few select synonyms for “gash” :

      I will also offer this – There is a point in the poem that represents the “mirror”. It is the focal point. It has no twin.

      I have 2 wwwh, 2 hoB, 2 heavy loads and 2 water high. That gives a count of eight locations that the clues describe.

      Now, if I throw in the location that represents the “mirror”, I get a grand total of NINE locations that the poem describes.

      I am hoping to hear from you. If not, I will move on. Thanks.

      • ROLL TIDE – You say,”I have 2 wwwh, 2 hoB, 2 heavy loads and 2 water high. That gives a count of eight locations that the clues describe.

        Now, if I throw in the location that represents the “mirror”, I get a grand total of NINE locations that the poem describes.

        Didn’t Forrest say something to the effect that there were nine clues, and if followed consecutively will lead to the TC or to his rainbow? How does having 2 wwwh, 2 hoB’s and 2 heavy loads plus one “mirror” = 9 clues followed consecutively?

        Just wonderin’ JDA

        • JDA,

          Good morning.

          Yes indeed, that is what f said.

          As I’ve said before, I don’t count clues. I use the entire poem to arrive at my results.

          The entire poem leads me to those nine locations. By using the entire poem, then surely I have employed the nine clues, as they are somewhere in the poem.

          You will notice, I never said that “nine clues” lead me to those locations, I said the entire poem does. Therefore, the nine clues are, of course, a dominant factor in my solve. It goes without saying.

          If I recall correctly, you adhere to nine sentences=nine clues. Is that correct? If so, then I have used the same clues that you have employed. No?

          I don’t employ punctuation in my solve, so I don’t want to get in on that conversation. But, if I recall correctly, I think there are eight periods (.) in the poem.

          Therefore, I am assuming you are using the semi-colon as a breaking point?

          If that is correct, then I am using the same nine clues that you are. I just don’t count clues. I see no reason to do that, as that might tend to cause me to “force fit” a clue by using that method.

          I hope that answers your question. If not, I will be glad to try again.

          • JDA,

            You are correct, I did indeed say ” . . .eight locations that the clues describe.”

            That should have read “poem” , instead of “clues”, as it does in the sentence immediately following that one.

            My mistake.

          • You answered “a” question, but not MY question. You may not count lines, or sentences, or clues, but how does using 2 wwwh, 2 hob’s etc equate to nine clues? Whether you count them or not? Why multiples of come things, but not of others? What in the poem tells you to seek a second of something?

            I believe in the circular architecture of the poem, and as a result, I have 4 or 5 definitions of “in the wood”, which leads to 4 – 5 “In There” interpretations. Logic has dictated that I use these multiple definitions.

            What has led you to seek multiples of certain places, and not others?

            Just curious. JDA

          • JDA,

            “What has led you to seek multiples of certain places, and not others ?”

            Okay, I understand your question now.

            I never sought multiples of anything, places or otherwise.

            That is just how it worked out when my solve was complete.

            Nothing in the poem, to my knowledge, told me to seek multiples of anything.

            That being said, nothing in the poem tells me that having “multiples” , is not a possibility upon my end result.

  61. Can someone share Fenn quotes that cover the following 3 topics. Interested in the comment regarding either the hiding place or the TC being “wet”, as well as a quote relating to the Blaze being “white”. I’m not sure if these are real quotes. Also; is there a quote that states specifically that either WWWH or HOB is an actual physical place marked on a map?

    • Puzzled – New Mexico tourism put out a video in 2015 to capitalize on the Chase. In the video Fenn says that he knows the treasure chest is wet. They show a picture of a river when he is saying that. I read an article done by California Sunday after that video was produced and Forrest told them that just because they showed a picture of a river does not mean the chest is in water. He also made a comment about the pinion nuts statement that he made in that same video to correct things.

      As far as the blaze being white, there is another video done by Dateline from 2014 and Dal is talking in that video about a question that the producer of the video had asked Forrest. According to Dal Forrest responded that a blaze could be white and went on to mention many different things a blaze could be with the color white. I personally don’t feel like he gave anything away because a blaze to Forrest could mean so many different things and could be of other color.

      Now to your third question about WWWH and HOB. I don’t recall ever seeing any statement by Forrest that they are physical places except. Unless you recall the answer he gave to a question that said the clues did not exist when he was a kid but most of the places the clues refer to did.

      Hope that helps.

      • HMA-
        You have the “White Blaze” story incorrect..It has often been repeated the way you say…I have tried to correct it when I see it on this blog…
        Forrest was responding to a question from the reporter. The question was “What’s a blaze?”
        Forrest was giving examples of what a blaze could be. I noted that the things he mentioned were white.
        I thought that was interesting and later I mused with the reporter and even later with Desertphile about whether this could mean that the blaze is white.
        Nobody ever said the blaze was white…not Forrest…not me…
        Although, in my humble opinion I do have a preference for a white blaze…but not at the expense of ignoring any other color or even type of blaze…

        • Dal – I stated that the blaze could be of other color or many different things.. Sorry if I stated something incorrectly.

          • Thanks to everyone for the quotes, and info regarding the 3 topics I asked about. I really wanted to make sure my solve still fit within what FF has said about the poem and TC. So far it does.

    • JDA,

      I am still contemplating “one important possibility related to the winning solve” (paraphrased).

      Do you have thoughts on that, you care to discuss?

      Good luck to you too, sir.

      • I have stated several times that I think that the “Key Word (s”) are “The wood”. I think that this is what Forrest is referring to. when he says “One important possibility related to the winning solve.”

        There is one very obscure definition for in “The Wood” that points to a particular place in Wyoming. If you use this definition, and place it “In there” in stanza #1, it will lead you directly to wwwh, and away you go.

        Without this definition, the searcher is just throwing darts at a big map in hopes of coming up with the correct wwwh. With it, you are led right to it.

        All this is just theory until I hold the treasure, and I could be as crazy as a loon. Only time will tell.

        These are just the mutterings of an old fool I guess.

        Good luck to all searchers, and TRY to STAY SAFE


      • Hi JDA — for context, let’s look at the two relevant statements from Forrest:

        “It is interesting to know that a great number of people are out there searching. Many are giving serious thought to the clues in my poem, but only a few are in tight focus with a word that is key. The treasure may be discovered sooner than I anticipated.”


        (from Mysterious Writings 6-Questions 2015): “I don’t want to broaden the clues and hints I’ve written about by pointing them out. What surprises me a little is that nobody to my uncertain knowledge has analyzed one important possibility related to the winning solve.”

        I think it’s quite a leap of faith to assume that these two statements are about the same thing. Also, as others have pointed out, the first quote is about a single word, not a pair of words. There are 166 words in the poem, of which only 85 are unique. Using Fenn’s estimate of 65,000 people searching (the number is probably much higher than that now), that’s an average of 765 people per possible “word that is key”. Obviously, a lot more people have considered Brown, blaze, brave and quickly than are, done, have and not, but the point is that it is extremely unlikely that “only a few” are in tight focus with ANY word in the poem. Statistics tell me that hundreds of people (not just a few) have considered every unique word in the poem at one time or another. The sensible conclusion is that the word that is key is not one of the 166 words in the poem.

        The second quote sounds more like he’s describing a unique methodology, strategy or interpretation of the poem that no one has figured out yet.

        • If “many” are giving serious thought….and only a “few” are in tight focus on finding a word that is key…then he says it may be found sooner than he thought…..wouldn’t logic say that’s because of the “many” giving serious thought? And NOT the few that are in tight focus obsessing over “A” (not the) word that’s key?

          • You could look at it that way…now add…”but only a few…” seems to out ride the many.

            The many are looking over clues as we all do…but a few are seemingly a step ahead of the pack.

          • Finding a word that is key or focusing on a word that is key? The hints to that word have been forever in plain sight. No need to expand any further.

          • What if we are reading that statement wrong? Who are the “few”? Are they from the “many” or are they from the “clues”? Maybe, a few of the clues are in tight focus with a word that is key. The word could be “key”, so, a few of the clues are in tight focus with the key. Few meaning the minority, so, 1-4 clues are in tight focus with the key.

            That is not clues 1 to 4, but from one clue to as many as four of the nine clues. It could be that these clues are close to each other, tight, and can see each other, focus, all in relation to the key…

        • Good points, but I still stand by my assertion…until I prove myself wrong, or I am lucky enough to find and retrieve the treasure.

          Although you point out that he uses “word” rather than a couple of words, wouldn’t he be giving away too much is he used the plural? I am probably giving away too much as it is.

          I think that the second quote is in agreement with my theory more than the first, although I think both are talking about the same thing.

          Just my opinion though, and I could easily be wrong.

          Happy hunting, find that Key word(s) and get into tight focus something that many ignore – and TRY to STAY SAFE JDA

        • Hi Jonsey1 — my reading of that statement is that “the few” are the only ones that have found something that Fenn believes is a necessary component to solving the poem. The implication is that until you are one of the many (and isn’t ~everyone~ giving serious thought to the clues in the poem??) who transitions to being one of the few who have found that word, you’ve got no shot at all. Even after you have found it, it appears you still have your work cut out for you.

          • I “thought” that as well at first….but given the last sentence “it may be found sooner than I thought” would suggest that “the many” and on the right track and a few are tightly focused on only one of the important words. Note he says “a” not “the”…so to me he’s saying many are actually giving serious thought as opposed to fixating on a single word….therefore it may be found sooner than he thought.
            Kinda like many fixate on J.C.s name in the olive story rather than noting the “cathedral” bottle (later a Penny Jar) and rest of the scene as well….so they never see the irony F is writing about there. The story’s pleasurable either way so even if you don’t want to give serious thought to ALL the story as a whole you can still have fun focusing on just one detail. Its why I think F is an amazing writer. You can see the deeper stories if you look, or focus on a single detail. Same with the quote I guess. Good stuff…..F must put serious thought into the quote, ironically in the end.

          • Jake: just to be clear, I didn’t say the word that is key (just want to emphasize that it is not a “keyword” since that has a very different connotation) is not to be found in the poem. I said that I didn’t think it was one of the 166 words of the poem. There is a difference.

        • Zap
          The important possibility comment in my eyes falls with the comment…what took me so long?

          Yep, I think it’s the methodology of the poem.

          • JJOnes,
            I think the poem is about time…

            But, aren’t you using reverse psychology? Fenn said you can’t start in the middle of the poem, so then we should?
            Many are looking at what they think are clues… however… some are in tight focus of a word that seems important to understand.
            So reverse psychology says the more/many searcher are closer/understand/see than the few that concentrate on a word that could help ? This is a slippery slope to analyze fenn’s comments as saying the opposite of what they appear to be.

            There are many wwwh in the RM and “nearly all” of them are N. of SF… So is this to mean the one and only is south of SF?
            Maybe the “She” fenn mentioned in a Q&A is actually a He…

            IMO this is the same as some saying “less than a few miles” fenn walk to the hide to mean anything including 100’… yet, I see “miles” as the indicator for understanding the distances involved… or … is fenn using reverse wording to mean anything is on the table, 1 foot, 1 yard, 100′?
            I would back up my thought with another comment fenn made; if you can’t walk several miles to your solve, don’t go. Again ‘miles’ as a measurement to be understood.

            “But a few” are in tight focus…
            The ‘but’ indicates that ‘other than’ those looking at clues… a few are looking at something important. Otherwise why say it at all, if it’s only to play word games.
            This was the first, and I think, only comment about the word that is key. And because of that, I have to think the comment of the word that is key is of importance and not word play.

            Of course…imo.

          • I totally follow you RDA….my thought wasnt necessarily on the existence of some important words and a few being focused on one of them….but more the logic of him saying “many” are giving serious thought, and “few” focusing on a word….followed by “it may be found sooner than I expected”. Like if many of the balls are black and only a few are white so I’ll probably get a black ball sooner that I thought. I just can’t resolve the logic in saying “only a fe” followed by “there for it will be found sooner than I thought.

            As far as word games?? Only a few =to hone in on. Tighten=to hone in on Focus= to hone in on. To hone in on with the word key? To key IN on…to key IN on what? Tight focus….

            You ever heard the song that never ends? I wouldn’t feel so strongly if almost ALL the WWords quotes didnt do the same exact thing.

            Unless of course there IS a single “key word”….but if there IS and this is a riddle? I’ll go with APERTURE. FINAL ANSWER. I think the “few” were probably focused on one of the other key words though. 😉 Just free thoughts, not saying they’re correct. Logic just tells me in a sentence if your increasing the likely hood of something happening it would probably parallel the larger number (the many) not the few. Reverse psych would be what most are reading it as unless I’m reading a different Quixote.

            I don’t think he was misleading us to tell us to get back in the box either. I think he knew poem means box and has already said he’s told us over and over to go back to the poem. Saying “box” isn’t a rouse to trick us into thinking cardboard….it’s just a playful word game…..that’s probably causing a good time to be had by Forrest to watch the irony in how STRAIT “foreward” he’s actually being

            Like his grandma with the Indians and the chickens…..and maybe Fred Harvey 😉

            All in fun…that’s just how I see it though. I’m generally a precise fool

          • Jonsey1 — I think you have a somewhat non-standard way of reading what Forrest wrote about the word that is key. The 64,990-odd poor souls that are flailing around in the dark (apparently) have a snowball’s chance of finding the chest. But a handful of people have found something that may be a necessary (but still insufficient) component to a successful solution. These few have a shot, and maybe there are more of them than Forrest expected after only 6 years, which led him to consider the possibility that the chest might be found sooner than the many decades he originally anticipated.

            To adjust your cake analogy, the 64,990+ are all out baking cakes (chocolate or otherwise), but the recipe calls for pineapple pie.

          • Zap- I totally get what your saying. And agree with the perception. Maybe I’m biased due to the time context of that quote. People asking if there was a “combination” etc. And F said it took a key. And then a big hoopla about the type of lock and how the key worked etc. Given the context of timing it seemed like he was saying that some were giving serious thought the poem and only a few were distracted/fixated on the key vs combination debate word obsession. Again timing changed context. I.e. If more people were only obsessing over the key word instead of giving the poem serious thought it would take a lot longer to find. Ironically the comment got more obsessing over finding a key word. Myself included. I had to take a step back and really look at what the words meant to notice what he was actually saying. No denial of a keyword possibility here. It’s just not what that specific quote says.

            For me, the timing thing is important to interpreting the clues too….WWWH could be totally obvious if you have a date in history to match it to. (Just an example) but nine clues same place/answer just different times in history isn’t as far fetched as one might think.

        • Not sure why some have 2 key words when he made it clear there is one & others think it’s not in the poem even though he mentions the poem in the comment.
          Comes down to people not listening well at all.
          I don’t think there was anyone in tight focus with a word that is key when he made that statement considering no one has found the treasure.
          I think he laid that statement out there to give a hint to all the bewildered.
          Do you really think a few searchers would email him, telling him, they have a word that is key even though the statement has never been mentioned by him.
          Ya, hey Forrest, I am in tight focus with hocus pocus.

          • Love the hocus pocus…
            Thought this was interesting (online etymology dict.) : 1640s, “point of convergence,” from Latin focus “hearth, fireplace”

          • Jake: to answer your other question, “Do you really think a few searchers would email him, telling him, they have a word that is key even though the statement has never been mentioned by him.”

            Yes, they very well could have. *I* could do so if I felt like bugging Forrest, but I don’t see the point. I have a word that (if correct) would be critical to a successful solution, but it only provides the starting point. It doesn’t give you the methodology for converting the remaining clues into the chest’s location.

          • Hi Forrest,
            I love the thrill of the chase & would like you to know I am in tight focus on a word that is key in the poem.
            That sounds retarded to me.

            Now, that being said, I could see this scenario: Hi Forrest, I have been analyzing all the words in the poem & found one that seems to suggest it may be the most important word in the poem.

            Either way you look at it, the first scene is very unlikely & the 2nd does not mention key.

            These words “Word that is key” used by Forrest are unique to him & probably never mentioned to him by anyone.
            Think about it…..

            Hey Forrest, I have a word that is key that I am focusing on.
            Not happening.

          • He doesn’t make it clear there’s one. If I said many are making a cake but a few are in tight focus with an ingredient would that mean there’s only one ingredient?or might it mean that many are seriously making cakes while only ago few got tied up debating the merits of chocolate? A cake may emerge from the oven sooner than I expected….personally i don’t think it would be from the fee tightly focused on Chocolate rather than those giving serious thought to the cookbook, which may even have a cake without Chocolate.

          • Jonsey,
            How many times does it have to be posted for you to get it?
            Never mind….
            “but only a few are in tight focus with a word that is key”
            Did he say A WORD ????
            Just don’t get you stiffs.

          • Jonsey it’s time to listen to Jake. If he doesn’t get it you can’t either. That’s the way we play in the sand box, Jakes rules or no rules. Nah nah na nah nah. And what’s a cake without chocolate.

          • Exactly A WORD that is key…just like A HOUSE that is on my block. That doesn’t mean there’s only one house on my block. Not trying to argue….just think about it. Everyone twisted it with the whole keyword shenanigans. Stiffs. 😉 Luv u too.

          • Jake — I realize you’re not getting the point I’m trying to make, and it’s not your fault. I’m hampered by the desire to keep the word to myself, which prevents you from being able to assess its worthiness. (Knowing the general area that you are concentrating on, you would LOVE this word and I’m confident would completely agree with me.) But let me try a different tack. If some searchers contacted Fenn about something surprising they found in the poem, they probably wouldn’t say it was a “key word”. They’d just come right out and say, “Hey Forrest! I found the word [X] cleverly disguised in your poem, and it seems unlikely to be a coincidence given what I know about your past. Am I on the right track?”

            Obviously Fenn couldn’t give such a searcher a direct answer, but by later making a general statement that seems to hint that some important word is an actual poem word, he wouldn’t completely tip his hand to the searcher(s) who mentioned it.

          • I think I know what your saying Zap,
            The word that is key is not in the poem, correct?
            Now, let’s take a look at all the words that are not in the poem & it would seem impossible even for a few searchers to come up with the same word that is not in the poem that they think is key. the odds are incredibly against them all.

            Now, if your thinking of rearranging some letters to some of the words to create a “word that is key” There are millions of possibilities here & you should know that.

            I get the feeling you are overthinking things like most that have failed.

          • Sorry to get snarky, I agree probably one word that is key but if there were two words and nobody was focusing on the other word then there could be two. As far as how he knew? Who knows? That has nothing to do with the message.

          • How bout this technkcality…..if a few are in “focus” they have no choice to be without a word that is key….since to “key in” is to focus in on,AND on a separate note (pun intended) a key also the first clue, or move, in a game of chess that allows “serious thought” to commence in the game.

            How many times has forrest said “figure out where to begin?”

            Probably as many as he said “go back to the poem”….finally recently he just said “get in the box” instead. Check etymolonline.com yourself….Look up poem. It means box. And I’m CERTAIN he smiled when he wrote it.

            But then everyone debates the thought box and abstract thinking…just like the “keyword” debate….it’s hilarious. I swear 99% of ALL his quotes and words are just circular logic of words. Not clues not hints just stand alone witticisms. Almost every single one. But it’s no fun to think “straight” now, is it?

            Cmon now, ur killin’ me Smalls.

            Straw knows…no chocolate?? Way to vanilla. No hot cocoa to be had at all.

          • OK, Jake, we’re reaching a bit of convergence: “I think I know what your saying Zap, The word that is key is not in the poem, correct?”

            Correct. It is derived from the poem.

            “Now, let’s take a look at all the words that are not in the poem & it would seem impossible even for a few searchers to come up with the same word that is not in the poem that they think is key. the odds are incredibly against them all.”

            If it was a common word, I’d agree. But it is isn’t. It’s a very relevant proper noun.

            “Now, if your thinking of rearranging some letters to some of the words to create a “word that is key” There are millions of possibilities here & you should know that.”

            I do. Cryptanalysis is one of my many hobbies, and so I’m well aware of the folly of anagramming. Scrambling the lines or words of the poem to make new words is no less hazardous. Fenn said not to mess with the poem — and in this case if you did, you would probably destroy the clue. No rearrangement of the lines, words or letters of his poem is necessary.

          • Well Zap,
            You are not the average person & therefore I would have to exclude you from the chase considering the average person reading his book & poem will lead you to the treasure.

            Overthinking everything leads to no man land.

          • Zap;

            I totally agree with you. Let’s say that my obscure definition of “the wood” turned out to be “Madison” – which it is not, but assuming that it was.

            I email Forrest and tell him that I have discovered his Key (secret) word, and that it is Madison.

            As you said, “Obviously Fenn couldn’t give such a searcher a direct answer, but by later making a general statement that seems to hint that some important word (Wood) is an actual poem word, he wouldn’t completely tip his hand to the searcher(s) who mentioned it.”

            Just a thought – JDA

          • Thanks, Jake, and fair enough. But “average” thinking hasn’t found the chest in 6 years. Maybe Forrest simply underestimated the difficulty (easy to do when you’re the puzzle designer and you can’t test it on anyone else). That said, you do not have to be a rocket scientist to find what I did — you just have to be “flexible” in your thinking. Like riding the bicycle with the backwards handlebars.

          • The most natural instinctual behavioral thing to do after failure of several attempts is to the think the problem is more complex more than it is.
            Overthink yourself right out of the poem…..

          • Yes Jake…a few are focused on ONE/A WORD THAT IS KEY. Say the treasure is in the center point of nine house. Each house would be key. A few searchers may be in focus of ONE of them…BUT if there was ONLY one key home the sentence would read “few are in tight focus with THE word” not A word. A in this sentence means “one OF”…..not “THE”. Parse it youself. It’s not my opinion, it’s English grammar. I didn’t make the rules.

          • Jame- if F said that a fewwere focused on A CLUE that is key would you argue there was only one clue? Why is it different with A WORD? Sounds like your pretty attached to a key word you have. And there may well be one and only one…..but that’s not what this sentence says. It’s just not.

          • “The most natural instinctual behavioral thing to do after failure of several attempts is to the think the problem is more complex more than it is.”

            Who said it’s complex? You seem to by implying that the only correct way to read the poem is to read the poem’s words, just like any other poem, and try to make sense of them. I say phooey to that idea — tens of thousands of people have tried that approach, and their solutions are arbitrary and/or are completely dependent on information found outside the poem (and often outside the books as well). What’s that definition of insanity? Trying the same thing over and over again and expecting a different outcome.

            Boot-stomping all over the four states is never going to find the chest if the basic methodology of understanding the poem is flawed.

          • But Jake, what if the word is “key”? And the “key” is Forrest Fenn,(a little of me is also inside the box), you then have two possible words. Since you like caps, A WORD, THAT IS, KEY. He tells you right there that the word is ‘key”. Do you not get it? If the key has 25 words to it, then the 25 words are the key…The word that is key is KEY, the key is those 25 words.

          • in re : a word that is key.

            We all know how clever f is when it comes to the Chase.

            We can debate “a word that is key” until the cows come home.

            So, is it possible that f has Told us what that word is somewhere?

            I can’t say for certain, one way or the other but, something has stuck in my mind for awhile now, that may or may not answer that question.

            Somewhere, I don’t recall where, or the exact quote, f said something to the effect of :

            “. . . in the eyes of the law, the key word is discover . . .”

            “key” is synonymous with discover.
            “stumble upon” is synonymous with discover (” . . .not going to stumble upon it by accident . . .”).

            seek, analyze, look, leave, and listen, are all synonymous with discover.

            Discover : fix upon : tight focus.

            Is the “word that is key” , discover ?

            just thinking out loud . . .

          • Yes, jake…I do think a few emailed him their word that is key before ff made that statement.

  62. You know your getting a bit cuddly with the chase when you go see a movie, in this instance it was “Pete’s Dragon”, and your seeing clues all the way through it. No place for the meek, the end is ever drawing nigh, Brave and in the wood all took on a new meaning.:0

    • One thought that needs to float around awhile is the why about the poem and treasure. Throughout the poem and book I see a bigger picture developing. Mr. Fenn and his Vietnam experience, his father and his punishments, the toast and jam references, etc. This is an educational experience and the older one matures the more “what was I thinking” moments reverberate back into our thoughts. The first time we see anything we have already prejudged the experience. Much like what we read on the blogs, in the news and outdoors our thought pattern has a tendency to prejudge. To keep an open mind and readjust our thoughts is a very difficult thing to do. Many, including me, have a way of seeing what we want to see and skip right past the soup and salad to the dessert tray. One of the most difficult challenges we face is to put our egos aside, readjust, and admit our mistakes. The old adage “always look twice before crossing the street” is a lesson that relates to more than just crossing the street and, unfortunately, is forgotten before we get to the other side.Think hard about the deeper meanings and references Mr. Fenn has abundantly placed throughout the book. A personal reflection is more than a quick glance in a mirror. It may reflect back to a genetic aberration from eons ago. The bigger the picture we see the less we focus on the smaller image. Could the ability to readjust be more important to a winning solution than a viable solve. Perhaps an X in spirit is as simple as a smile from a passing thought. Oh, how I wish I was smart enough to understand what I just wrote is a thought that always makes me smile.

      • Strawshadow ,

        Wise words indeed. Very well said.

        Fits nicely with “do we know what ‘several’ really means?”

      • Quite a jumble of thoughts there, Straw, but you definitely won the debate on the word that is key.

        • Thanks Spoon, I wasn’t trying to win, just understand. Like “It’s an art”, “It’s an Indian”, “It’s a bronze” or “It’s a sculpture”, we all have a valid opinion. Just who’s hot and who’s cold is the stumper. Good to hear from you.

      • Straw…Intelligence has been defined by some…as the ability to suspend judgement long enough to thoroughly consider the traits of two seemingly dissimilar or vaguely similar objects and perhaps find new similarities. Both objects may be understood in a new light as a result. Others may call it wisdom because it purposely forgoes a knee-jerk judgement in favor of a deeper understanding.

        IMO Its obvious to me that FF has an ax to grind with the intelligentsia (etc) concerning the important role of the average outdoors-person in discovering the full message our fore bearers have left us before that message is lost to time and the effects of nature. One example is historic samples degrading on locked shelves in collections under poor environmental conditions.

        On another note…HEAVIER LOADS may be SLOWER LOADS which require special treatment in your solve.

        • Mensan fensan,
          Yes I agree, thank you for your sage advice. Mr Fenn has awakened the minds of many and the spirit of more. Who knows where the uncharted future leads when the tormented current has been forgotten. If all we have is a hope for the best then that’s all we can expect. I apologize for my twisted round about thoughts but that’s where my cautious nature has guided me recently. There will come a time to be bold for each and every one of us. I know we all look forward with gusto for those moments.

        • Hi mensan_fennsan: the thought (whether hinted at by Forrest or others) that is a bit offensive to me is that someone who is of average intelligence would have an advantage over someone of above-average intelligence in a contest that clearly depends on that trait. It’s no different than saying that an average swimmer would have an advantage in the pool over Michael Phelps, and yet many people insist those two “gifts” are not the same.

  63. Here is a story on MSN by Jacek Krywko about some new tools to find missing persons and how it predicted where Randy would be found. In the end Randy was actually discovered when an Army Corps worker stumbled over his body while working in the area but the software has promise…

    This is not unlike the renavigation software that was used to find the WWII Japanese submarine I-52 in the middle of the Atlantic nearly 20 years ago and some 50 years after it sank. In the case of the I-52 that software was the only reason our search team could find the I-52. So the technology is not new but the algorithms are greatly enhanced and the application for discovering land based targets seems to be a new development.

    Maybe next it will be used to find Forrest’s treasure… 🙂


    • First impression. (A thought?) The software entrains itself to localize a focus, (where the ‘missing thing’ is), within the context, or background, of data points that are input to the software (algorithm). Data points are the places and times where the missing thing was at least once, for a fact, known to be.

      You put in the dots, and the software connects them. Around a ‘center’ point or ‘central’ region, I suppose.

      I think the article said, trying to locate the missing seeker the software output a wide area because the input was very few data points. Where the man was known to have been. (?) Some of the few data points were admitted guesses.

      If we put in every location we know, or guess, (lat & long, timestamp), where Forrest has been — that he eye-witnessed one moment — in his plane above 5000 ft across four states of Rocky Mts. . . . my first impression, I flinch. And think that that would be TOO MANY data points.

      Then if we fed his poem input to the software as, maybe, as vernacular ‘clue’ symbols applying in homing vectors or triangulations figured toward a center spot, a cross-hairs site. . . again, I think the ranging-scope output would show a ‘central location’ of the entire area above 5000 ft across four states in the shape of the perimeter of the Rocky Mts.

      When there are too many data points and the software connects all of them altogether, the output is not a cross-hairs singularity. It’s a mandala. Or a woven dream catcher. 🙂

    • By the Way-
      The story makes it sound like Forrest is raking in the money by selling maps at $100 a pop. He is not selling those maps. Sacha had them made and sells them. Other than signing them, Forrest has nothing to do with those maps…and certainly gets no money from them…

      • Yeah Dal, I snickered when I read that, some folks just don’t know which way the aisle goes. A unbiased confirmation on the reliability of our media.

  64. Tim- I agree with you on anagrams but finding correct one is very difficult. As i have gone alone in there, can also yield: senile hero to heaven again. There are also 2 key words from line, sentinel and anthelion. You can also get the idea of a tunnel or tube from passage in this life to next, and can also make anagram; Oh neat reeling have a noise. Which doesnt make much sense til you anagram next line. And with my treasures bold= wire end bolts a study ham. Certainly a treasure bold for forrest was his crystal radio. Skipping over the secret where line for now, takes you to: and hint of treasures new and old= radio turns on, needle hand wafts. Sounds more of a blueprint or work of architect than poem writer! Is begin “it” the radio built from first 4 lines of poem? Take “it” in the canyon to possibly listen good to secret message? I’m not entirely sure, but interesting none the least. I’m firm believer in possiblity of second poem and possibly third of the different times of forrests life; as kid, as soldier, and as an wisened old man! IMO

  65. All,

    I’m finding much significance in the line:

    “It took guts to go in there when it was dark with no moon”


  66. You’re looking for a word that is “key”? Call someone now—LOL, only “crazies” know something “more” is the “HIDDEN” resource we need. Maybe one”word” will solve the whole thing! What nonsense! We need to look at all 24 sentences of the poem, and see it as a whole. If we don’t we could lock ourselves right out of a solution.

  67. Some thoughts for searchers…ASK A KID…A kid is also a young goat or mountain goat (one was photographed a few years ago in the Wyoming Rockies). An animal trail can be a blazed trail.

    IMO it may not be fruitful to ignore the many probable allusions to FISHING LORE and terminology in the poem. It may also not be wise to ignore possible multi-allusions to other specific industries in the poem.

    If ignored, the context of the stanza may be missed entirely.

    Since we have been exhorted that knowing WHERE to start is PARAMOUNT, we should NOT assume that others searchers (who may not have known the correct starting place) must have exhausted all the simple solutions to the poem.

    IMO (and I think this has been substantiated) if you know the correct WWWH and HOB then the remaining solution to the poem can be worked out within a few miles of HOB.

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