Odds n Ends About Fenn’s Treasure Hunt…Part Nineteen

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Thanks…

 

dal…

575 thoughts on “Odds n Ends About Fenn’s Treasure Hunt…Part Nineteen

  1. Folks who live in the high country have been keeping me aware of the impending winter storms lurking in prime search country around Yellowstone. There have been two early season snow storms already, bringing snow as low as 8000, with a hard frost warning in the valleys tonight and more moisture on the way this week. Grand Targhee is looking at 10+ inches, and the CO continental divide somewhere between 4 and 8.

    Please be extra cautious out in the mountains. Winter can come at any moment. Be prepared and be safe…

    • Thank you, Dal. This evening’s news has forecast the possibility of Denver’s first snowfall on Wednesday evening, if it gets cold enough to switch the rain to snow. We also get about 4″ in October, and we’re at 5280′. Trail Ridge Road received several inches last weekend.

      • Gardniner, MT has light snow above 7000-8000 but still precipitating outside. Good luck! You guys rock!

        • That’s good to know Darren. Been trying to get my BOTG team back up for one last look before there’s snow cover. Been watching the web cams all day to see if there’s any accumulation.
          Thanks!

      • Hi pdenver, I watched the news this morning and she did not say anything about us getting snow here in Denver tomorrow evening. We are only going to have a low in the upper 30s, which is obviously not cold enough for snow. Where did you see that? Thanks! 🙂

        • The news keeps going back and forth. KUSA reported the possibility of snow/flurries on Thursday morning. We’ll see. You know Denver! Expect the unexpected and then it’s gone the following day! 🙂

    • It’s time to shut down the treasure hunt in the Northern Rockies. If you are planning one last search north of Colorado Springs please review the rules for winter survival. The roads can close behind you. GPS, extra clothing, matches, food and water, and a hardy companion are requirements, not luxuries. Colorado has an average of 6 people lost in the mountains every year. Please tell someone where you are going and when you plan to return.
      The weather in Santa Fe is still shirt sleeves and sun tan lotion, but the leaves are mostly yellow and red and you know what that means. I’ll post when the cold in starts getting close. I have my ducks to think about. f

    • Thanks to Dal and Forrest for the weather adviory. That being said , how in the world does the statement by Mr. Fenn himself make sense? ,, If you knew precisely where it is , you could probably retrieve it in any weather.,, I Mean even if you knew how could you retrieve it in a area that’s im

      • Its not in a dangerous place? or Use common sense?

        If the chest was in a beautiful open field where kids could fly kites on a sunshine and daisy day… would you still go to retrieve if a tornado was passing through, or a lighten / hail storm was present. Like fenn stated; nothing is absolute, and mother nature makes her own rules.

    • I would also be interested in the answer to Joe Sparrows question from the end of the last odds’n ends thread re who has been here from the beginning (2010ish)?

      I heard about the chase in 2013 and have used this blog as the amazing research tool it is all along ( Thank you Dal and Goofy!!!) but didn’t start following the discussion threads until recently. I’ve never really been one to chat on forums or comment on blogs but I needed a Fenn fix until I could get BOTG again to check the epiphany I had after the last BOTG, lol. I had to laugh when Seeker said that at the end of the last thread cause that seems to be true of so many of us!

  2. If I were to throw out a quote to searchers, as a suggestion, it would be:

    “Read the…poem like you were going to put an X on a map.”

    Safe searching, everyone.
    Geoff
    “Have flashlight, will travel”

  3. http://geonames.usgs.gov/apex/f?p=gnispq

    Thanks Forrest for the Cold Weather Advisory Today.

    Searchers. Above is a link to search for place names which are at or above a certain altitude or in a certain area. If you leave most cells blank then you can get a 500 (or so) element list of various type names in a certain county which is delimited by the pipe symbol and stored in a spreadsheet. Give the page time to refresh.

    Also, I always carry a magnesium stick with flint and recommend you keep one in your vehicle all the time or at least when you travel anywhere in the winter. Hint: Reattach the flint securely or it will fall off and get lost. You can also get magnesium shavings in a bag and make little single-use survival packs.

    Remember: One is None and Two is One when it comes to survival kit items.

    Forrest says to shut down the TC search North of Colorado Springs due to weather.

  4. Grizzlies are getting feisty as well, be sure to read up on how to handle a bear encounter if you plan on searching up north. Best of luck!

  5. Weather is clearing up in my search area. Thinking about heading out again real soon. Got a clearer head and clean socks.

    Any tips?

  6. B. Heston, in the previous Odds and Ends you said:
    “voxpops…. Im not interested in giving a bunch of freebies either. But you all but said newbies/ lurkers dont have a place here…so yes i was offended.”

    I don’t conflate lurkers and newbies, and this is not my blog, so it would be outrageous of me to suggest who should be here and who shouldn’t – I would never do that. However, I learned a year or so back that there are people who wait for others to make the discoveries, and who would be quite happy to take that information to find the chest for themselves. For them, the money/kudos is more important than the chase. I just have no intention of feeding them if I can help it. So please don’t be offended, my comments were not directed at people like you.

  7. Wsiconsin Mike, you said:

    “voxpops

    You have noted on the blog that you don’t wish to give away any of your solutions to clues to anyone who might not have done their homework already.

    However (interpreting similar to how the poem must be read) you seem to intimate that you WOULD be willing to share with someone who HAS done their homework and has been a tireless searcher. Perhaps I fill that bill? Ask anyone who attended Fennboree this year and met me and my daughter.

    I would enjoy working out the rest of the solve with you. If you are so inclined – reginvad at aol dot com.”

    I’m not a natural collaborator, Mike, but I would be interested in knowing of other, genuine searchers, who are using similar methodology. Here’s what I would suggest: if anyone can say in ONE WORD what the anomaly is, and in ONE WORD what precedes it, then I’ll know we’re thinking along the same lines, and I’ll consider pooling ideas. You can reach me at voxhumana at hotmail dot co dot uk.

    And thank you for being open to the idea of a poem-driven solution,

    • I suspect that I would say the word “halt”, because it is actually an anomaly that the word halt doesn’t rhyme when all the other lines do. It is actually the anomaly in the poem that we should consider. Then I’d say “waters”, because that is the one word that precedes it.

      Then you would say, “Nope. That’s not it.”

      Then I’d say, “Yeah it is. It’s right there. It is an anomaly and you’re talking about one single anomaly in the poem. It’s THE anomaly in the poem.” And then you’d say, “Nope.”

      Then I’d say, “Look mister. If you said there was one anomaly of two or more that we need to guess, OK, I’d grant you that there might be some hidden anomaly beyond the one that is obvious. And then you might be right. But you said there was AN anomaly. You’re right, there is. It’s right there. It’s the word ‘halt’.” But then you’d say, “Nope”.

      Then I’d say, “For the love of God! The anomaly is ‘HALT’! EVERYONE who reads the poem can see it!”

      “Nope.”

      We’d probably go back and forth over this for a day or so before I throw my computer out the window, and you’d go find the treasure using your secret anomaly… the OTHER anomaly that is hidden away when all we see is the one that is right there in plain view.

      Makes me tired just thinking about it, so I’ll say nuthin’.

      (I’m just kidding of course. I have no idea what you’re talking about 🙂 )

      • LOL, Jeremy, I love it!!! Thanks for the fun start to the day!

        Although I have to fit in with your scenario and say “Nope,” I do agree that the word “halt” is important – and maybe it is something of an anomaly, as you point out.

        It actually reminds me of this:
        https://youtu.be/Nf_Y4MbUCLY

        “Our chief anomaly is halt and good… our two main anomalies are halt, and good, and Brown… our three main anomalies are….”

        • “Amongst our anomalies are such diverse elements as: halt, Brown, an abundance of W’s, a fanatical devotion to short words, and …. I’ll come in again.”

  8. Another thing to be aware of for the next few months is that it’s hunting season and to ware bright clothing so that can see you ez and not mistake you for what there hunting. Besides the bears and mountain lions a wounded animal that would normally not be dangerous to us can be dangerous after wounded and feel trapped them selves. Be aware of whats. Around you and don’t take any risks that aren’t needed to take. Just think safely.

  9. Another thing I notice…. Just verbally speaking out here…. Why does Forrest Fenn end his statements with one ” f ” and sometime 2 ” ff ” its just another push of the keypad ??….

  10. Can I just say, “sub “.
    It’s too early for any relevant thought.
    Thank you

  11. Thanks for the” HEADS —–UP” on weather conditions MR. Fenn!!!!
    STOP!!!
    I Will HEED your Warning!!
    Until next Spring, how could it possibly be Winter again!!!!

  12. Nature is a traffic signal. At yellow, we are to be cautious, slow down you might make it through, but you might not. Red, STOP everything is dead still, gotta wait for the green. Turn green, the buds pop, the grass grows and we searchers are like gangbusters. Get out of the way……here we come.

  13. My last search was 5 months and 25 days ago, today. I try to read a new book every month. I lack drive and can’t think straight, but will soon discover something.

  14. All,

    I don’t believe this will be a revelation to many so I’ll share it.

    First look up the meaning of the word hint:

    https://www.google.com/search?q=hint+syn…kid=sp-006

    A couple of synonyms that stand out are; suggestion, indicator, sign, signal and pointer. Is it possible that hint is synonymous with what Forrest considers the blaze? Look at the line “And hint of riches new and old” it may be possible that the word hint may be nothing more that a placeholder for what the blaze does, it indicates, points, signs or signals to the searcher the location of riches new and old (the treasure).

    So it may be possible that the first stanza merely tells the reader the following:

    Because (or as) I have gone alone in there I CAN keep my secret and signal where I left my trove.

    If this theory proves accurate, then there may be no information in this stanza that gets a searcher “closer” to the treasure. I look forward to your “constructive criticism”.

    LitterateOne

    • Liter81,
      Would you consider this stickily a hint as it may claim to be. or a clue? Searchers have deciphered the first two clues, which would be indicating the first clue is not a place but an understanding. My thought is of new and old to be the chest… not sure if I lean in that direction.

      If hint is an indicator / pointer and when one is wise and found the blaze, to used it… maybe the hint also is… what is being used to be a new / old concept. Example, a sundial of sorts. old concept [ telling time of day ] with a new purpose showing direction? Just guessing at this point…. I like the hint word usages though, and your thoughts of them. It may explain in part, certain beforehand.

      New and old seems to be the same conundrum as, not far but to far to walk. I’m not sure if we will know exactly what they mean until we have more of the poem thought out. So again, hint used this way does seem helpful for a later clue… the blaze.

      Wheels and gears are turning…

      • Seeker,

        As I have mentioned before I do not believe there is any information contained within stanza’s 1,5 and 6 that get a searcher closer to the chest, but that doesn’t mean there isn’t any information that assists us in a better understanding of those clues that I believe are found within stanza 2,3 and 4.

        What I was implying in my previous post is that the blaze may simply be what we find after we have been wise and are proceeding up the correct creek. And the first stanza is just Forrest stating he went alone and marked his secret spot where the chest resides.

        As I have gone alone in there,
        And with my treasures bold,
        I can keep my secret where,
        And hint of riches new and old.

        possibly decipher to read as:

        Because I boldly went alone in there,
        I CAN keep my secret, and MARK where
        I left my trove.

        The Treasures may be those things surrounding us while in the outdoors, or in there.
        The trove is his “riches new and old”
        The Mark is the hint and or blaze that signals where he secreted it.

        This all matters not in out quest to locate the “where”, but it does help to narrow down information that is important in locating the “where” So the “where” IMO is not found within stanza 1.

        Warm waters halt is not the first clue, the where is.

        “The greater part of knowledge is knowing those things not worthy of knowing” – Marvin Fenn

        LitterateOne

        • I believe stanza one actually directs you to which state you should be searching in. Would I be willing to divulge this information for public consumption? No. Does that sound egotistical and selfish? Of course it does.

  15. GOt turned around taking a “short cut” in the woods on a overcast day.Glad
    Had my iPhone /w compass att. Got me out.

  16. That was the best contest ever!! Congratulations to Jonsey1 and to the inner chipmunk.

  17. Hi all. Well the end of the search season is fast approaching. I have been out four times to my spot with no success. I live overseas so it is a fairly expensive exercise for me, but it is my choice.
    I am fairly new here so forgive me if this has been mentioned before. Mr Fenn says he will know if the chest has been found. To my way of thinking this will only be possible if someone starts selling the items and he recognises them. If someone finds it and holds onto it we will never know.
    What if you are not looking for the chest but an item, a low value item, say one of his old fishing reels, which when returned to him he will give you a gift for finding his misplaced item? This will get around several problems. He will know someone has found the item. The item is of little value so the government cant claim rights to it, in fact they can have it if they want it.
    The only negative to this is if a random person finds it and doesnt realise what it is they may discard it.
    What are your thoughts?

        • Forrest has said there is no I O Us, no safety deposit boxes, but that the chest (and treasure) will be there waiting for you when you arrive.

          • If I remember correctly he said he did put a $100k IOU in the chest that you could take to his bank in Santa Fe and collect, but then in the same interview he said he couldn’t remember if he did that or not, that is kind of funny IMO, because maybe he can’t remember if he actually put the IOU in the chest but it seems he would certainly remember if he put $100k in a bank account.

            He said he thought of EVERYTHING, with legal counsel, and that he would probably know for sure if the chest was found, I am guessing there is something or some things in the chest that will almost guarantee the finder will claim that will let Forrest or his Estate know when the chest is found, including the value of the treasure when he hid it is probably in a pre-paid tax trust so you will only pay taxes on the increased value. So in this I thought of everything scenario the finder will owe almost no taxes and will probably get an extra $100k if they claim the IOU, and probably something even more valuable than that is in there, something related to the Top Two Treasures in the Chest…

          • Per pdenver, maybe not, but probably for sure in 100 years, he said in the interview that his bank probably won’t still be around in 1000 years but maybe? Ever read Lestat? Have you ever heard of Rothschild & Sons, probably you have, and they are not the oldest, they have been banking since 1811 and they are only the 7th oldest bank in continuous operation. I am trying to look at the Big Picture lol…

            https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_oldest_banks_in_continuous_operation

          • Per Mark. Certainly could be possible. We definitely need to look at everything with a chance that it just may be. 🙂

          • Sorry, Mark. I must be sleeping. Lloyds Bank, 1765. Perhaps one might consider what the longest running bank in New Mexico is.

          • Per Mark. There certainly seems several options in New Mexico that has been around for at least 100 years. Not sure if one of them is where he does business, but there are options. It was fun searching this info with you, Mark. I greatly appreciate it.

          • Per pdenver. I would guess it isn’t a New Mexico entity, maybe Texas, it certainly doesn’t have to be New Mexico and imo Santa Fe would be too easy for Forrest Fenn. The funny thing is who really needs to care about all this stuff but the 1 out of 100,000 that actually finds it and I bet when Forrest says he thought of everything he thought of all this more than you and I will ever fathom.

            When my solve led me to a private property I started looking into all the legalities, things I never would have really cared about otherwise, like this how long does a bank exist thing? And what is a Land Trust?

            http://dalneitzel.com/2013/08/28/legal-ponderings/#comment-152141

            Mostly I like thinking about all this stuff because it makes me think about and imagine what it would really be like if I actually found the treasure and was lucky enough to actually have to think about all this stuff…

          • Per Mark. I agree that we may be adding more worry than need be. First, find the treasure chest, then deal with what comes next. Mr. Fenn did say he tried to think of everything. I believe him.

        • Well John, you have made 4 trips here and now you don’t believe that it is even here. Hmmmm sounds like you just wanted to add to your frequent fliers miles to me, Otherwise you believed it when came here so I would imagine that you just have to hold on to that feeling. Believed before and nothing has changed so it still is waiting there for someone…
          Timothy…IMHO

  18. Forrest and Dal, Thank you for the weather update, I still have knock out rose bushes bloomiing here in Arkansas, It is excellent weather for working in my Yard.
    Leaves beginning to fall, colors are gorgeous, so much beauty to enjoy this time of year,
    Forrest, what do your ducks do if the pond freezes over??
    All searchers stay safe and be prepared.

  19. Since the topic says: “odds-n-ends” perhaps this is the place for this question/discussion.

    I hate to dirty the treasure with cheap talk of money and “disposing” of something made sacred by the dedication, hopes, and dreams of so many searches, but I still would like others’ thoughts on this matter.

    I’ve been trying to imagine what I’d do if I found the treasure. (not what I’d buy with the money, mind you–but what to do with the gold, etc.)

    I personally would be concerned about government intervention and heavy taxes (as well as getting ripped off by collectors). I would probably keep the location a secret and hide a “dummy” chest back in that spot for future searchers to know they found the spot. Hoping that Forrest is still alive, I’d return the necklace to him, but would hate to draw a lot of attention to myself and so would ask to remain anonymous.

    But how do you liquidate it into usable cash, short of holding an auction? Would you discretely sell a nugget here or there for cash? Could you avoid the fate of other famed treasure finders who either had it confiscated or had to pay hefty taxes?

    Would you submit it to be displayed somewhere as the famous “Fenn Treasure” and maybe earn money off people coming to view it?

    I’m sure some collector would pay a premium for the entire collection together–more than you’d get if you sold it piece by piece.

    Also, what would you personally keep, rather than sell? I personally am fond of the chest and would probably keep it and a few favorite souvenirs inside.

    I hate to admit it, but fear of theft and taxes and the uncertainty of what to do with it might cause me to hold the entire trove secret for years.

    I guess, someone needs to find it for any of this to be important, but as he/she will certainly face these decisions, I thought it could be a helpful discussion for the benefit of the lucky finder, whoever it might be.

    • Really good questions, Ryan. Finding the treasure would impose a hefty tax bill and, without selling some of the loot, most would not have the means to pay it. One thing Mr. Fenn did which I think is really smart – he did say he thought of everything, didn’t he? – was to include the gold coins as part of the treasure. These are highly liquid assets with readily ascertainable market values and could probably be liquidated quickly at or near market. The value of the coins appears to me to be somewhere between 25% and 50% of the value of the entire contents, so I believe Mr. Fenn included them as a rough proxy for the taxes the finder would owe.

      Of course, if you have the means to ride it out and pay your taxes out of other funds, that may be the better way to go. As you’ve said, the treasure may be of greater value if not broken up but rather sold as a single collector’s item.

      Finally, finding the treasure could be a financial windfall for the finder independent of the value of the treasure. This thing has become so famous now that there are many that will want to hear the story of the find, etc. Only the finder will be qualified to tell it.

    • Ryan –

      I think it’s a good question and one that should be addressed before you go and get it – because after one finds it – for awhile anyway, your brain may be in overload.

      Many people have thought of some good ways to earn an income from the TC – without selling any portion of it.

      Of course the bio could be handled outside the main TC..sold to the highest bidder or published…..with part of the profit being reserved.

      To keep everything together, after returning the turquoise bracelet to FF, would most likely increase the value of the treasure. It’s not like parting out a fallen business.

      One idea is to hire an agent. Another is to have Las Vegas Casinos bid on showing it. Just that alone could bring in a hundred thousand a month. Another is to auction it off to the highest bidder.

      I think all of these things depend on your life style, your ability, and how you want to deal with these things after finding it. Would you be mobile – do you want to travel – do you want to spend the time working these above mentioned things.

      Any other thoughts?

    • Lol–I googled Tennessee Pass and immediately saw “turquoise lake”, “twin lakes” and a town called “smelterville”—- I’m beginning to think any place you google looks like a good spot. 🙂

  20. I had the strangest, funny thought today and thought I’d share it. In the movie “The world according to Garp” a plane crashes into a house and Garp immediately offers to buy it. He does so because he says “what are the odds another plane will ever crashes into this house again?”

    People also often say that lightning never strikes in the same place twice. FF has made several references to lightning.

    My thought was this: From 1984 thru 1989 there was a contest called “The Search for the Golden Horse”. A golden horse was buried in the U. S. somewhere and it was worth half a million bucks.

    The hunt ended in 1989 with no one finding it. However, a few months later two men stepped forward to say they found the burial spot, but after the contest was over. They later “proved” how they located it.

    It was buried in Tennessee Pass, Colorado, very close to an old memorial. Their discovery was disputed by searchers for years after, many believing the two men hadn’t really located the treasure site. There is still a blog about it all these years later.

    Now here’s the hilarious thought I had: FF had cancer in 1988, a year before the Golden Horse hunt ended. When it ended in 1989, and the two guys came forward, one would be led to think “well, no one will ever find a treasure buried there once again”.

    But maybe if you were thinking like Garp above after the plane crash, that might be exactly where you would bury another treasure.

    I know— ridiculous thought huh? Anyone up for a visit to Tennessee Pass, Colorado? LOL. 🙂

    • Darn it Joe, I lived in Denver the first 3 years of the chase and could have run up there no problem. Now that I live in TX you come up with this great idea. I’m sure we could come up with a way to make the poem fit! 🙂

  21. Maybe Clint Eastwood would agree to star in the movie adaptation of your sequel, jonesy1. Could be a blockbuster.

  22. A fellow searcher by the name of Maile Field decided to test her luck this summer and took her son on a Fenn Vacation to the Teton/Yellowstone neighborhood. She posted the story on her travel blog..
    You can read it here…
    http://mailefield.com/project/grand-fenn-allies/

    I found it interesting how the search slowly steals its way into her heart…

    • Thanks for sharing the hunter experience. Hopefully I’ll make to my hunt area in 2017. Really looking forward to it.

  23. I would like to give a shout out to ” The Gypsys Kiss” Podcast that I recently watched I could only find 5 episodes and a couple of interviews at the bookstore but I found them entertaining and especially like the beginning of each episode the music and video puts an adrenaline rush in my veins to go search….

    Kudos to Toby and his crew
    Is your blog still up in the internet world?

    If you haven’t seen or heard them I recommend them highly… Aaarrgghh

  24. Maybe I’m over analysing a comment made by forrest when he said i made 2 trips in one after noon; noon being 12. He also said that no one was around. Also in ttotc he talks about going in at midnight. Referring back to poem he mentions tired and weak. Tired would be from lack of sleep and weak from the 2 trips. I’m thinking he hid the chest at night and that would bettet explain the need for flashlight, the place being a graveyard in the sense that no one was around. Any other ideas along these lines? These are IMO of course.

    • Can you give a reference or link to where he mentions flashlights and graveyards? I don’t recall him saying anything about needing a flashlight, and only that it is not in a graveyard.

      • From the “Cheat Sheet above: “Q: I would like to know if the blaze can be found during the day without a flashlight. “I would say yes.f” JDA

        • He said you could find the blaze during the day he did not say chest. Is it possible you can determine the blaze before BOTG?

        • WY Girl: in my opinion, not only is it possible to determine the blaze before BOTG, you must. If you can’t figure it out from home, you’ll never find it or the chest.

          • I agree 100%! I posed to above question to draw attention to the fact if you find your blaze from home and can go right to it you don’t need a flashlight to find the *blaze* but you may still need it to find the chest.

            Once again the idea of not what I said but what you think I said.

        • The chest isnt located at the blaze, as there are directions to follow from there JD! You know that! I had seen you were taking possession of the chest in 180 days or so too! Were you then going to post your solve JD?

          • IF I find it, I will let Forrest know. Forrest will let the world know it has been found. Legal questions will have to be answered as to whether
            it is wise to disclose exactly where it was found – so – I do not know how to answer your question – – – IF – – –
            and that is a BIG IF I find it. JDA

          • I bet Colokid a bottle of booze against a case of beer that I would find it within 182 days. I COULD be full of myself, and just want to rattle his cage a bit also. Time will tell.

            Maybe I just want to buy him a case of beer – who knows? JDA

          • AND WE ONLY BET GRAPE NEHI?!!! I want a rebet…I think JDA is just trying to get us all drunk. Okay by me. Break out the grooved slabs of ice and the Jägermeister.

      • Ryan,
        I don’t recall the graveyard part being in the original Q&A regarding a flashlight and a sandwich.
        I can say what I recall… the answer was to, any special or needed “equipment” ?

        Other questions followed this Q&A with different wording and inquires such as do you need a flashlight in daylight, or is the reason for a flashlight because the chest is inside somewhere … and on and on.

        At the time I read that Q&A; My thoughts were, No special anything needed, a flashlight is always good to have in the mountains [ quick change of weather, heavy wooded canopy, emergency etc. and bring something to eat, you might get hungry during the day, you won’t find a McD’s around ever corner.

        Look for the original Q&A and go from there is my suggestion.

  25. WY Girl: in my opinion, not only is it possible to determine the blaze before BOTG, you must. If you can’t figure it out from home, you’ll never find it or the chest…

    Yes I agree.. But if you think you solved it from home and you never BOTG, 1 thing that will hit you is the Vast Land Mass of options you will see once at the location and your whole type of thinking this won’t be hard will change and you start more thinking if an 80 yr. guy would be here

    • That is so true! The first time you get out there it all so different than it looked from home and you have to rearrange your way of thinking. And that’s coming from someone who grew up in the mountains backpacking and camping all the time and knows the vast open reaches out there. I cant imagine how it must feel for someone who hasn’t experienced that before on a first BOTG.

    • I still really think he openly told us the blaze. Blaze means beginning. Hence a horses forehead, start of a fire, trail marker etc. That’s where all those words come from.
      “The beginning”

      F has openly told us you need to know where to start.
      =
      If you’ve been wise and found the beginning/where to start

      I think that’s why he also said the blaze is an object in a word….it’s the beginning. It doesn’t face any direction. It’s just where you begin in the poem. Maybe it’s even the poem itself. Where you begin.

      Could you remove the blaze if it were the poem or a word inside? Sure…but it’s not exactly feasible to destroy all copies and exterminate anyone with knowledge of what it said.

      Just IMO but every comment he’s made about the blaze seems to make sense if this were the case (aka poem or the place in the poem that says where to begin)

      • That’s a good point Jamie. Since he says in the next line that your quest will cease, maybe that’s where it starts. f knowing some may cease right there, it would be just like him to actually start there. The poem is a sort of blaze, begin with the poem.

        Begin at the beginning, that may be the poem. So then what would the first three stanzas be? Instructions on how to interpret, set-up info to decipher the clues, the ending?

        Marvel gaze would fit, everybody is amazed at the poem, NFBTFTW would fit, if this is the case then places as far as point to point would not fit. So, that would mean coordinates. The only thing, beside the poem that could stand the test of time. Granny Smith may need to move to Iowa. That may leave a sour taste in her mouth…What do I know, I’m in Orange County and haven’t seen mic-mic in a long time. That mouse just may be the k-e-y. I “bet” his father would know, “alphas” are like that.

    • Searchers…What did the first peoples do with two copper mirrors? How did they use them? (flash flood warnings, invaders, etc). Why would FF put them in the TC? Are they the two top items?

      Like in the Lord of the Ring Movies, where and how did people signal multiple distant relatives and clans quickly from one vantage point. How many of the clues would also have worked for searchers 1000 years ago as well as 1000 years in the future? Most of the clues? All the clues?

  26. To all of the Florida and East Coast searchers – I’d like to take a moment to say – Stay Safe, my thoughts and prayers are with you tonight as this terrible storm hits you. Please let us know how you are………

    • Thanks fellow searchers,
      It’s a blessing the eye stayed off shore & only had to endure tropical storm winds with the occasional hurricane strength gusts.
      Power went off & on many times & came back on again this morning.
      Some debris scatter around & a few trees down but for the most part, we dodged a bullet. I’m not so sure for the people further up the coast of Florida & Georgia & S. Carolina is next & hopefully the eye will stay off shore & everyone stays safe.

      Bye bye Matthew!

        • JD & all,
          Even though Forrest’s words today were given back in November or Dec.
          I get the feeling that you can solve the poem completely or at least put you within 100′ radius or so of the treasure.
          Furthermore, I think the distance from the car to the treasure is a lot closer than most think or thought including myself.
          Why else would he encourage your “searching partner” to stay in the car?
          Also I think you may be wet & cold & have the heat running in the car to get you out of the elements quickly & avoid hypothermia.

          Seems to be a straightforward comment compared to many others.
          Anyway, that’s what I get out of today’s MW – WW’s

  27. Someone mentioned on here a little bit ago how funny it would be to a stranger overhearing his family conversation about whether or not a body would fit in a place or not and it made me laugh out loud.

    It got me to thinking about the Weekly Words. I wonder if they aren’t Fs answers to questions (the old Q and A) but now just minus the Q part. If so, I think it’s absolutely hilarious. Maybe the poems like that too only the proverbial Qs and As are all present just not labeled as pairs. Example BIWWWH. Blaze=begin. So blaze would now be WWWH….then tie the next “end” (literally in case of halt) to another “end” then follow that to the next end/word and tie again. like he did with his string ball.

    • Jonsey,
      We [bloggers] have talked about the poem so many was… some being the circle, straight stomping, beginning is the end, mirror image effect and many other thoughts… etc. I wonder if the poem is an illusion. Similar to the beginning is the end, but not a physical travel of a circle. a mirror of reflection in thought, but not so much of sight. etc.
      Do we see the poem as stomping out the clues because the illusion is in our own interpretation[s]? Do we see it as a beginning that takes to an end in the same location [ circle hiking ] because the illusion of that is in our own theories of reading the poem?

      Is fenn’s imagination and design of the poem simply allowing our imagination to pick those illusions?
      My example in part is the line;
      “look quickly down , {comma} your quest to cease, {comma}…
      Many if not all of us, at one time, thought this to be the end. Yea! we found the chest! right?
      But look at what I did… “many if not all of us {at one time} thought this to be the end” The “at one time” is not needed for that sentences, but an added thought or information for explanation. Many of us thought this to be the end/cease ~ is the point of the sentence, and the at one time, is just a simple add in for explanation that we may not think the same now.

      So the Illusion in that line of the poem is our own because we read the line as the end and skip the add in between the commas as to say here is what you need to do if you want to get to your goal. “BUT…” here is how you get to the goal you desire.

      I’m sure an English teacher out there can explain it better… but I think you can follow my winded explanation.

      And like you stated; is the poem read to be the Blaze = the same as the beginning.
      Are we to simply read the poem as to what the blaze is, where it is and the location of the chest to be all in one? The “wise” part is/might be, the certainty beforehand of knowing, all we might be looking for is the blaze [ point / spot ] of the chest.
      and the illusion is of our own making.

      So in this ‘theory’ all the clues can be of a physical nature in one spot, consecutive in order of the poem, contiguous in close/touching and straightforwards.
      Is the Blaze a single o?bject . Is the blaze found in the poem or only in the field? Can one go searching for the blaze prior to understanding the poem? Can the description of the poem be seen as a huge place and the goal being a small place? and at the same time ‘lead’ a searcher to the location, if the follow the ‘directions’ properly?

      My suggestion[s] may not be correct, but any theory at this point in time should… imo… pass a check and balance test. IMO that is a great use of the after the fact comments.

          • I think the direction would be obvious since he has said to the effect of only one way in. The others very well could be distances in relation. Maybe an object to cast a shadow.
            Seeker, I think your “checks and balance system” is in his after comments. I think you’ve said that before, and I think you’re right. I don’t think he is just rambling on or what have you. He can’t stand idly by without participating.
            I think we all look for a consistency in the poem when their is not one. The interpretations of solving can take many different forms. The only consistent thing would be that a solve needs to make sense. There may be 5-10 ways to solve a single line, but it all must make sense. And good support is his after quotes. It’s those that truly help.

      • Seeker,
        I agree with almost all of what you said above. Like I’ve said before I believe it hasn’t been found yet is because searchers are solving the whole poem with one way of thinking which leads to force fitting answers. The human mind wants to find order in chaos and looks for patterns. I truly believe f broke the poem down into smaller puzzles that each required either a different skill set or a radically different way of thinking to solve. This theory would also explain the seemingly contradictory get back in the box MW Q & A. Each little puzzle has an in the box solve but because each puzzle reguires different thinking to solve the one who figures it out is the one who can adapt to the different ways of thinking. You have to be able to ride the bicycle both forward and backwards and that’s extremely difficult. If this is true it’s brilliant because not only do you have to figure out where to start but then you have to overcome the natural tendency to look for patterns. That narrows the field considerably.

        • Just realized I went off on a completely different tangent there, lol. Starting thinking Seekers post and got completely sidetracked from thinking about the blaze. 🙂

          • I’ve been told I have that affect on women… The sidetrack part I mean.

            I agree. The bike, get back in the box, be able to adjust, imagination, logic/analyze seems to be all rolled up into one… even if at first, they don’t seem to be the same ideas.

  28. here – I don’t know why we are having so much trouble with the word blaze – I am 70 years old and forrest is in his 80s – in my younger days and up till now – a blaze that I grew up with has always had something to do with fire and flames – a bright light to me is just a light – a white spot on a horse is just a white spot – when I see a car that they painted with some thing that looks like fire they don’t say – look at the fire on that car I have always heard them say look at flames on that car – so to me the blaze has something to do with fire and flames – so the blaze in the poem is not real fire but only a picture of what we should be looking for in the blaze of the poem its early and I hope I made sense with this comment . all this is just my opinion

    • Hi Frank,

      I rarely post on this blog but I’ll offer this to you…

      It is commonly believed that the word ‘blaze’, in the poem, refers to a physical marker of some sort. ie trail blazing. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trail_blazing

      A blaze can be anything. Also consider that if all of the information needed is in the poem then the type of blaze is coded in there as well. imo

      • Rich,

        May want to consider this one.

        MW, Featured Questions with Fenn, Nov, 12, 2015:

        http://mysteriouswritings.com/featured-question-with-forrest-subtle-clues-in-the-thrill-of-the-chase/

        Q. You have said to read the poem and read TTOTC to help solve for the 9 clues. We all know there are many options to choose from regarding, Brown, hoB, wwh,and blaze hinted at in the book. My question is, “In the book, do you also, in a more subtle way, tell which is the correct answer to one or all of the above?”~BW
        A. “No I don’t madam, sorry.”

        And this:

        MW, Question posted 6/26/2014:
        Can the blaze be pre-determined by the poem or can it only be determined at the search area?- becky

        “Becky, you are a rascal to ask that question and I have been sitting here for about fifteen minutes trying to decide what to say. Well, it has been thirty minutes now and I think I’ll pass on the question. Sorry.f”

        Forrest declines to answer directly so we can assume there’s a good reason….(gives too much away?)

        I believe all the information you need to find the chest is in the poem, but I don’t agree that the poem NECESSARILY tells you what it is.

    • re-read your post — you’re saying that the type of blaze is the word blaze itself? (fire/pictures of flames etc) yup it could be 🙂

  29. rich thanks for your reply – imo if you start looking for for every blaze there is you will run in to something that you wont find – to me is to keep it simple – a blaze to me has to do with fire and flames – so that to me its a blaze – ill give you a hint (flames)

    • What are the four elements? Earth, Wind, Fire and Water?

      Earth is too general – won’t work. Wind – not solid, have to eliminate it. Fire – Doubt that Forrest has an eternal flame burning somewhere, so only the remnants of fire are all we can count on, ant those will not last 1,000 years or more. That only leaves water, and that is what sustains all life. My bet is on water! Just a thought. JDA

  30. JD- thanks for your reply – ill give you a hint go to a google map on your computer and look for a land formation made by water and sage brush and for what looks l;ike flames and then tell me as for 1000 years I wouldn’t but to much mind to it I don’t think any of us will live that long unless you know something I don’t know as as for an eternal fire JD really?

    • Frank;

      Isn’t it funny how we can only see the world through our own eyes. I was trying to give YOU a hint, and you turn it around and feel that I am the one who needs the hint.

      Read what I posted carefully, and see if possibly I MIGHT have said something valuable. If not – disregard – Your choice. JDA

    • Frank,
      You said prior that your near the same age as fenn and to you a blaze means fire ( close enough for horseshoes.)

      Using that thinking that fenn would only utilize blaze as fire or flame… isn’t that completely eliminating other possibilities. I mean, fenn being a Wonderer of the mountains, following trail markers ( blaze) in that term would be just as familiar to fenn as flames.
      Especially in his youth and just starting to hike around.

      Now while flame to blaze is possible… isn’t that forcing a conclusion and maybe why you see a blaze on GE?

      That’s like saying that to far to walk must be 10 mile because fenn mentioned that.

      Not knocking the thought, just saying what I see looking from the outside in.

    • Frank;

      Seeker said, “That’s like saying that to far to walk must be 10 mile because fenn mentioned that.”

      Is Seeker saying that we are not to take Forrest at his word? Is Seeker actually saying that we are not to believe Forrest? Darn, I certainly hope that that is not what Seeker is saying, but it sure sounds that way to me.

      Are we to ignore everything that Forrest has said in print or during interviews? How can we “Pick and choose?” Are we to believe ONLY what Seeker deems appropriate to believe. Darn I hope not.

      Some times Seeker becomes so full of himself, he forgets what this chase is all about. It is about Forrest Fenn, and HIS secreted treasure, NOT about Seekers opinion of what is important.

      I will now get off of my soap box. Good luck with your search Frank. JDA

      • JD,
        You don’t have to like Seekers statement but, Wow, that was a pretty impulsive response.

        Where did Seeker say we should not “take Forrest at his word” or “we are not to believe Forrest”?

        For that matter where did Forrest say that NTFBTFTW was a definite clue or that 10 miles is the answer to that clue? That’s all supposition at this point.

        In fact, you chose to omit his last sentence: “Not knocking the thought, just saying what I see looking from the outside ” which clearly express this as his opinion with the “what I see” clause.

        I certainly hope you’re not suggesting Seeker isn’t entitled to an opinion here?

        • Colokid,

          I ignore JD’s ignorance… I don’t post or respond to his post since his whining I irritate him.

          Apparently he still has his panties in a bunch, and is trying every which way to undermind me … but he is pushing it with this BS , implying I’m calling or say anything about anyone in his warped mind.

  31. seeker and JD all I can say is this – try looking for a land mark on GE that looks like flames – what do you have to loose- its a start – its one thing that you can see and to me it was easyer then looking for wwwh but don’t take my word for it try it – as far as not far but to far to walk it means just what it says he just tried to help by saying its to far to walk JD don’t be offended dby what I said its just talk

    • Those who start by looking for the blaze might as well stay home and play Canasta.

      • I thought the same thing. But listen, a Zoo employee (I was visiting with my son and ran into him by the zebras), who also happens to be investigating the poem, said he began an interesting test, starting in the middle of the poem instead of the beginning.

        He said he has been amazed at the progress he has made. The guy definitely isn’t staying home playing Canasta. So I don’t know what to think.

        • Joe for years people have been stuck on looking for wwwh it happened to me – so seeing that I wasn’t going no where with that I moved on to something else and like your friend I also was amazed – so to me what works for me is how ill work the with the poem – I feel that I now know more then what I knew at the beginning

      • Frank: by all means solve it by whatever means you are comfortable with. I was just passing along Forrest’s own warning about looking for the blaze instead of figuring out WWWH: “Playing a hunch is not worth much in the search and those who start out by looking for the blaze, are wasting their time.f”

  32. Hey JDA, Jake
    Leaving tomorrow for what i’m sure is to be my last search, for this year. I better find something even if it’s just a cold. At least I can tell the wife that I came home with something. I sure hate packing up the winter cloths to go search but that’s what it’s going to take. Sorry that you two didn’t find it but the fat lady hasn’t sang yet. OH Wait a minute, the Chicago Cubs are in the Divisional Play offs, maybe she is singing right now and I just can’t hear her.
    Take care fellow searchers as we go out to play in the cold and maybe (snow)…
    UGGGGG…
    Timothy…IMHO
    PS. Where did I hide that snow shovel?????????????????

    • Have fun Tim,
      Why are you going to stomp anyway?
      There are some here that think you should try to think how the poem should be read first & follow them.
      But then again if you never stomp, you will never get the treasure.
      I respect stompers as yourself & I look at this way.

      You can muddle around all you want on how his poem is understood & written, but if you never get out there in the wilderness, you have failed at all, not just getting the treasure.

      If you never play the lottery & spend a buck, how do you expect to win?

      I’ll just spin my wheels here for years & contemplate which
      numbers I will play for the lottery for years to come.

      Never mind, the best way is to psychically eliminate areas of interest & this is called process of elimination.

      After all, if we never step away from our computers, we are doomed for failure & maybe we should just stay home & give advise that we we don’t actually follow.

      • Hey Jake
        You hit the nail on the head. We’ve been out a few times before just because I needed to things in person. Just remember this wouldn’t be my first rodeo or my first crow pie…
        I wouldn’t bet on this or any solve as the odds are always with the poet..
        Good luck with your searches and be safe as you and JD seem to be in the hardest conditions possible and you both always hang in there.
        A lot can be learned if these searchers would just listen to you two instead of them trying to prove them right or as some do try to prove you wrong. You guys have a “great” out look
        Great solve and be safe
        Timothy…IMHO

    • Good luck in your search Timothy. Be wise and safe. In that area bring bear spray, a .375 H&H magnum, and make lots of noise.

      Godspeed,

      Windy City

    • Hi Timothy;

      YEA for you! The wife has retired, and you are doing what your heart says is right. Y E A for you and your wife.

      I sincerely wish you and the wife the very best. I hope that you find the treasure. I am sure that you will find treasures, I just hope that the one you find is dressed in bronze.

      Try to STAY SAFE JDA

      • JDA
        Thank you, We are on the road the indulgence now. Debbie my wife said to say HI to you, So Hi. I’m not 100% sure but I’m 99% sure but there is always that 1% called Forrest that can change a smile to a frown in 1 second. I’ve always believed in my solves like you have in yours and that’s what grabbed me about you. If we find it I will call you for a sculpture to be made for my wife. But like I said , we have to get there before Kedar’s mom. She seems to be a tough cookie. ooh cookies, gotta go. I want some cookies now…
        Best wishes to you and your family;
        good luck and please stay safe,
        Timothy…IMHO

    • Happy to hear you dodged the Matthew bullet, Jake. As for lotteries, I always considered them a tax on people bad at math.

      • Ha!! Back when I owned a bar we regulars there every day untIl someone could drive them home. They would wrIte a number on a dollar and lay it on the bar and tHen watch keno board. First persons number that came up got all the dollars on the bar. They loved beating the odds of the real game. Winner usually bought a round of shots of out worst whiskey for the losers . They were only $2 and it was a tradition. We had three keno screens by the end of it all.

  33. seeker got something for you on the key word comments – its the key words of the day

  34. I propose a new discussion thread: STARTING OVER

    I spent a year studying, reading everyone’s opinions, pouring over maps…..
    ….and finally took a vacationsearch………..

    Problem is, I did not find Indulgence, but I cannot shake my failed solve. It still seems right to me.

    How do YOU start over? I’m thinking I need to read TTOTC with a blank mind. Erase hints, other’s opinions, preconceptions…but I have trouble with that. I am completely invested in Lewis&Clark. Can’t shake it.

    • What worked for me, Joseph, (in the sense that it got me thinking along clearer lines), was to truly believe that all the information necessary to solve the clues was in the poem and on the map. FF has said time and again to go back to the poem. Obviously, there are a lot of people using the books and I know that FF has suggested reading them, but if you don’t know what to look for in the books then the poem is the best antidote.

      If the answers are in the poem, then unless you can find unequivocal references in those 24 lines to Lewis and Clark (or fill in the blanks), it’s unlikely that the solution requires you to know anything about those matters.

      All IMO.

    • Joseph, you’re not alone.
      After failing last year, I decided to throw everything out the window & start over.
      I had the whole winter to go over everything again.

      The first thing I did was ignore what everyone else had stated & listen & transcribe all the video & audio from Forrest. That took a while but now I had only the things Forrest stated.
      Next, I read every statement from MW’s Jenny’s website that Forrest said.

      I looked at the poem in a more straightforward fashion with little imagination & mostly logic. Read the books again & again & read the poem about 100 times & came out with the same starting area.
      That was fine with me because the ending area came out to be about 60 miles away from last year.

      Oh well, I tried anyway, but I would go with your own logic & a little imagination.
      Try & stick with the facts & get rid of the fluff.
      Good luck! I will see you in the Madison’s next year.

      • We just missed you this year. I am trying to wean myself from the Gallatin Range….the Madison’s are quite enticing, and very L&C.

        • Ya, we were off by a few days.
          I never did finish searching my area.
          I know I said I was going to quit after the last search but have that empty feeling in my mind.

          I am contemplating moving to Bozeman, closer to my search area.
          I have no kids, no pets, no partners, no house, I rent, I work, I eat & rest.
          Think I will just work here in Florida through the winter & maybe spring & then uproot & head to Montana for a few even if someone finds the treasure.

          I love the Gallatin, but the winters are long & harsh although I lived in New England til about 45. The White & Green Mountains were my playground there.
          I miss the textured land living down here in flatland for 6 years.

          • well Jake im out of the game myself – with my copd I cant go to a high elevation so to me if im right or wrong it really doesn’t matter – im retired I don’t need any thing its just me and my wife so in my part the treasure will just have to stay there – I do injoy my time here on the computer with you crazy people making a fool out of my self but its fun its been a fun trip for 4+years cant complain – thought I would get better with my typing but I gave up on that – one finger typing is good enough for me

          • Sorry to hear that Frank,
            We all may have to call it quits at some point & go on with our lives.
            I may be searcher for hire next year in Montana only.
            Florida is a good place to retire & I’m not ready for that yet.
            If you have a logical straightforward solve with a little imagination for somewhere in Montana within striking distance from Bozeman, then we may want to partner up.
            I am going to move there next year.

            There are a few things odd about Lewis & Clark chapter & I hope to tie those loose ends together.

            I have been in touch with a few searchers from SW Montana, but they are more interested in there own solves than mine & can’t blame them.
            There is still a lot of ground to be covered above Hebgen & below Big Sky.

          • Hey frank, got an email address?

            From one COPD sufferer to another…

            saemlesls at msn dot com…

            Got a fun trip you may be interested in, and you can get there on your computer…

          • I will never know Zap unless you send it to me in email.
            I’ll bet you’re paranoid just like the rest of em that haven’t checked it out yet.
            It’s so precious until you find out it’s just not there or possible.
            Besides, it’s getting too late in the season & already turned down a sweet offer there.

            You really should not play the role of a teaser unless you’re sure & you’re not.

          • Jake: you assume I haven’t been recently. Revealing when I’ve been at my location doesn’t sound like a sage course of action. I’m sure you’d agree that a certain level of paranoia and secrecy is reasonable given the stakes.

          • Really Zap? You just wana play the game:
            If you knew what I knew, you’d be there already.

            Let me tell you what I know.
            I know that most of you think you know, but there’s only one person that knows.
            What you know is what you think you know.
            I expected more from you for some reason & I know what to expect from you.

          • Jake — I was just trying to be supportive of your intentions to move to Montana. You are in the right general area, in spite of having the wrong WWWH. You revealed where you went on your most recent trip, and I would say it’s a safe bet that your were within 1000′ of the chest; just not at the time you thought. Naturally you will say I can’t possibly know that since I don’t have the chest. But just as you will never change the state you’re searching, I will never change my WWWH, canyon down, home of Brown, blaze, or a couple other clues because I am as confident they are correct as I am that the sun will rise in the east tomorrow. People think that if you’ve found the blaze, finding the chest is a mere formality because they have preconceived notions about what the blaze is and what the poem is telling them to do with it.

          • Zap,
            There is no we know how close anyone was.
            We do agree on the area as well as many but we can’t get too caught up into what we really don’t know.

            I appreciate your support but quite frankly doesn’t matter much what anyone else thinks.

            I think we know the treasure is hidden in this 600 ft sq mile area & there are less than 20 creeks to my last check including dry ones.
            But most of these creeks travel great distances & will say that Taylor should have been named a river of all the creeks in this area, then again I do not know the criteria for such.

            You said I may have been 1000′ from IT.
            There are only 6-8 creeks from where I have traveled & posted.
            So which creek do you think it is around?

          • Hi Jake,

            “Zap, There is no we know how close anyone was. We do agree on the area as well as many but we can’t get too caught up into what we really don’t know.”

            You are right that we can’t know with certainty how close any particular searcher was, but we can make some very educated guesses based on Forrest’s 200′ and 500′ remarks if we are confident in our starting point. These people were not in the middle of nowhere because they couldn’t have gotten to a “correct” middle-of-nowhere without solving more than the first two clues.

            “I think we know the treasure is hidden in this 600 ft sq mile area & there are less than 20 creeks to my last check including dry ones.”

            It’s more than 20. It’s more than 30 just counting the named ones.

            “But most of these creeks travel great distances & will say that Taylor should have been named a river of all the creeks in this area, then again I do not know the criteria for such.”

            Don’t some maps consider Taylor Creek the Taylor Fork of the Gallatin?

            “You said I may have been 1000′ from IT.
            There are only 6-8 creeks from where I have traveled & posted. So which creek do you think it is around?”

            Well, If you came from Bozeman, there are a lot more than 6-8, especially since you posted that you went to West Yellowstone for another searcher. In any case, to borrow the words of the Church Lady it wouldn’t be “prudent” for me to go naming creeks in a public forum, though I will certainly give some thought to telling you privately.

          • Zap,
            I wasn’t thinking about that part of the trip, so I guess I went by over 40 creeks while traveling on Gallatin Rd & Taylor Fork Road & around West Yellowstone.

            I spent weeks on GE & G Maps looking at every creek along the Gallatin. Yes every creek. I ruled out every creek on the East side of the Gallatin fairly quick considering some had too much human traffic with campgrounds & well known trails & some of the creeks also were not doable by 80yr old.

            I automatically excluded any creek that had no parking area or pull off spot.
            I don’t think he would have parked on the side of Gallatin Rd but could be wrong.
            Many vehicles travel this road to get to WY & WY.

            I looked for creeks where a gravel Forrest Service rd was nearby or at least came within 3 miles of the creek with an area you could park or just park by the side of the road.

            I studied the names of creeks & looked up past history to see the other names they had & see if the name could relate that line in the poem.

            I looked at the elevation climb along with the distance of less than 2.5 miles to where you parked & excluded more here. Any elevation climb more than 500′ within 2.5 miles is questionable.

            Anyway, I have done what a lot of searchers have done & maybe a little more but the results are still the same.

            One of the things I thought was “Your creek” maybe unnamed.

    • Joseph,

      A journey of a thousand miles begins with a step. Go back to the poem and read it over and over.

      “All the information you need to find the treasure is in the poem”f

      LitterateOne.

  35. Jake,

    what part of Florida are you in? I am about 10 miles or so west of Wildwood.

      • Jake,
        I live on the Withlacoocee River just a couple of miles out of Lake Panasoffkee…nice bass in this area.

        Email me if you would like to bass fish sometime and talk a little about the Chase.

        Rickinfloridausa@gmail.com

        • Rick,
          That sounds like a great way to talk about the chase.
          Nothing like catching a few large mouths while chatting about catching the big one.
          The one that got away always seems to keep me going for the next wondering how big that one was.
          I will be in touch.

  36. “Grab every banana” is a phrase Fenn likes to quote from his father. The word “banaa” is Arabic for “brown”.

  37. I just finished another search; perhaps the last one of this season. I’m not going to lie, I’m a bit discouraged. There are a lot of people here that feel they are close and I’m no different. And just like most of you, I’ve found too much evidence out there to make me change my path. I feel like I just need to nail down the end of the poem – heck, I’m not sure. A part of me just wants to publish my solve, but that is just goes along with all of the emotions that are at the surface during the long hike back down out of the mountains without 42 or so extra pounds that you didn’t have when you went up.

    I’m just rambling at this point. Heck, maybe next time I’ll just leave my search partner in the car next time as per Mr. Fenn’s advice.

    Quick question: Does anyone here send their solve and pics to Forrest via email? I’m considering it and just wanted to bounce it off of you kind folks here first.

    • Don’t get discouraged, feel proud that you made the effort. You had a great day outdoors with Mother Nature, someday you will look back and wish you could do what you did today:)

    • Joe,

      Many of us have been where you are now, it is a challenge in itself to pick yourself up and question where and when you may have been wrong. You can send your solve to Fenn if you like but do not expect a response, if you get one consider yourself lucky.

      Good judgement comes from experience, experience comes from bad judgement.

      LitterateOne.

    • To answer your question about sending your solve with pictures to Forrest – I have in the past. I hesitate to do
      it now, since his Doc said to limit his computer time. That
      is an individual choice you will have to make.

      When I do write, I keep it VERY brief. But that’s just me.

      Good luck next time out – Have faith – “It’s ALL GOOD”

      JDA

      • Thanks for the little pick-me-up comments from both of y’all. I had a lot of time to think on the long ride home and I think I know where I went wrong – or more appropriately the area I neglected to search. I’d still make the trip up there again before too much snowfall, but I need more to go on. This is a giant onion and I feel like I’m peeling it one layer at a time. Im not near the search area so there are some logistics issues.

        My goal is to go back when I’m certain – if that is even possible. That point in time may come tomorrow or it may not come until next season.

        Im taking my breath today and I’ll hit the books again tomorrow.

  38. JDA
    I stopped all together since that person hacked into it and put up the TC was found….
    Timothy….IMHO

  39. While the debate among searcher in regards to the book vs the poem has been a topic for many conversations. I am reminded of fenn’s many comment’s about the book is helpful, book has subtle hints, etc. Along with, all the information you need to find the chest is in the poem, go back to the poem, etc. We all have heard all the comments [ at least the majority of searchers have ].
    So I have asked myself two questions;
    Are we to simply guess, understand, use logical deduction to say… Yes, the book is needed.
    Or
    Is it possible the the poem directs us to the book, leaving the question of a guess answered.
    Stanza 1 could help understanding that the poem may actually direct us to the book. Fenn [As I have ] wrote the book [ alone ] he entered into memories [ memoirs ] of his treasures. Treasures is interesting as it means ‘possession important to one’ and not necessarily ‘of value to others’. By doing so the secret is where fenn wants it to be… in the book.
    Stanzas 2 & 3 seem to be locations and information. Lets leave that alone for now.
    Stanza 4 starts with “If you’ve been wise and found the blaze, look quickly down…” Here’s the part that makes me think… should the book help with the clues, and the clues are in the poem, then the poems ‘might’ refer us to use the book, if stanza 1 implies such. I need to think about all comments fenn has made about the blaze. One in particular is the question from Becky that fenn took 30 minute to say he declines to answer.
    “Can the blaze be pre-determined by the poem or can it only be determined at the search area?- Becky”
    “Becky, {{ you are a rascal to ask that question }} and I have been sitting here for about fifteen minutes trying to decide what to say. Well, it has been thirty minutes now and I think I’ll pass on the question. Sorry.f ”
    There is no mention of the book or even the poem being in the book. The poem states; if you’ve been wise to found the Blaze… Which could imply that the Blaze is in the book. I’ll add not just the blaze but possibly most or all of what the clues refer to. A hypothetical would be; the blaze is in the book and we needed to be “wise” to understand where it is “found.” So the book, the poem and the search area could hold the blaze. Now come the Q&A is the blaze a single object… “in a word”, yes. But can the reference to what the blaze is be in all three places? [ and possibly the other clues as well ] Object of a book, object of a poem, object on site. In a word.
    Stanza 5 asks a question which fenn knows the answers to… he did it tired…implying his life [ memoirs ] over time, and weak… implying aging. Is this what is needed to be listen to and heard.
    If you are brave [ meaning to take on a challenge, and not so much fearless ] and in the wood [ to mean the book ] fenn now give us the Title [ the book ] to what the gold is or refers to… The Thrill of the Chase.
    What I’m theorizing is the possibility that to know where the clues references are to be found, and only using the poem to find them [no outside sourcing needed] the poem should give us the knowledge of where the information is found-able. After all, that is what fenn stated, “All the ‘information to find the treasure’ is in the poem. And I’ll add the auto interview with fenn was directly asked, …do you need to read the book…
    “They “don’t need“ to read my book, “but they need to read the poem“. The book will help, but they can find the treasure “if they can decipher the clues“ that are in the poem”
    So If stanza one explains that his “hints of riches” [ knowledge / memoirs ] “new and old” to mean the way the book is set up… “new,” past, young, beginning and “old” present, aging, end. The treasures [ plural ] are just that… the answers he all ready know. He’s done it full circle or in this case not a circle of a ball, but twice, once in reality and and now in memories.
    Showing us the place for the first time… fenn place in his memoirs. Two trips, mirror image, following his shadow that is leading us.
    Just a theory of how the information in the poem might tells the reader the book will help with the clues. Is clue one actually the book? And wwwh is where we begin… leaving us with a journey of three. Fenn’s memoirs, fenn’s challenging us to journey through his memories [ two can keep a secret if one I dead ] and us, our journey to explore “in the wood”

    Take this as ya like… it’s nothing more the an attempt / theory to see how “the poem direct us” to the book being there, to actually help solve the poem.

    • Been listin to this theory for awhile else where but isn’t the poem in the book? What if the poem just sends you back to the book to page 132?

      • Isn’t the poem on page 132? Read stanza 1 tells you to back to the poem on the same page? Count what am I missing?

        • Are there clues in the TTOTC book? “Yes, because the poem is in the book.”

          The book will always be important because the poem is in it. Is there another reason? Depends on what one believes a treasure is.

          Both the treasure and its hidden location are so vivid in my mind that I don’t need to see them with my eyes again. f

          How valued are your memories? They make us what we are.

          • The attempt here was to try and explain how the poem could tell the reader the answers for the clues are in the book.
            For me if… all the information to “find the chest” is in the poem… and if the book is involved [ meaning the entire book and not just page 132.] Then the poem “must direct the reader” to the book and not just be a guessing game.
            Fenn says the book has hints, the poem say hint of riches new and old. Is the poem directing / instructing just that? The hints are needed or you can’t solve the clues.

          • I don’t believe in this method of the poem directing you to the book. I do believe there are very little subtle things in the book that helps to understand the clues or what each clue is. It took him 15 years to write the poem but 6 weeks to write the book(or so he claims). How much can they really coincide with each other? For me the important hints are mostly in important literature. Unless there no subterfuge in the poem but there is subterfuge in the book what do you think of that? Also the hints in the book may not be placed to aid the seeker but then who are they placed for, the finder?

          • “title to the gold” when the book title is blazed in foil on the cover is possibly a pointer…at least as much as any other line points to a random spot on the map…in my book at least. Some interesting fonts inside as well….

    • Wow Seeker – Your brain has been working hard to put all that together, and all (maybe) for the one comment early on about all the info to find the chest is in the poem.

      I still go back to the question that was asked that elicited f’s response, whether or not there were at least one additional clue in each chapter in addition to the nine clues in the poem that were required to find the chest. I believe people read too much into his “all the info” answer; his simple answer to my average thinking brain equates to ‘all the info = the nine clues that will take you to the chest’ – and subtle hints in the book will help with the clues, just like he has repeated almost ad nauseum.

      It seems rather ackward and strange for f to say publicly that the book has hints that will help with the clues in the poem on one hand, that all the info to find the chest is only in the poem on the other hand, and then carefully hide in the poem that one must refer back to the book the very thing he has publicly declared. But either way, your theory is interesting to say the least.

      Just my tired opinion after a long, busy day of projects. I will probably need to come back tomorrow an reread all this to see if it makes any sense. 🙂

      • JCM,
        I’m not really advocating this to be anything more than an exercise.
        We have had questions about Little Indy, and not knowing the background of the chase, having only the poem, and having a map and the poem. etc. and those questions fell short.

        So if we don’t need to read the book ~ we need to decipher the clue in the poem,… could one clue tell us the book is where we need to look for those. IF not that ok by me, IF true, I’m ok with that as well. But I’m just trying to break down the poem to see if that is how we need to do it.

        IMO if it is that we “need” the book to solve the poem, then the poem must say it. because the poem as all the information.

        This interview seems accurate for the most part but some things seem different. So I don’t hold it as to be fully accurate… Fenn seems to have used ‘crafted’ in place of an ‘architect wrote the poem’ and ‘Blueprint’

        “He says he always knew the hiding spot, but spent 15 years massaging the clues to match before he hid the chest. With the cancer treated, he had time to get the words just right. “People think I sat down one night and wrote that poem. I didn’t write that poem, I crafted it,” he says. “No one is going to find that treasure chest on a Sunday afternoon picnic or over spring break.” Backpackers interview.”

        Did fenn craft the poem to tell the reader the book is key to solving the poem? and if so, the poem must indicate us to go back to the book… The after the fact comments are only as good as the original information, if it is not then it won’t work.

      • JCM/Seker,

        OK, he has said that there are hints in the book that will help with the clues and all the information we need is in the poem. Seeker has made the point that maybe the poem directs us back to the book somehow.

        Well let’s talk for a minute about this quote which I think is often overlooked.

        MW, Featured Questions with Fenn, Nov, 12, 2015: http://mysteriouswritings.com/featured-question-with-forrest-subtle-clues-in-the-thrill-of-the-chase/

        Q. You have said to read the poem and read TTOTC to help solve for the 9 clues. We all know there are many options to choose from regarding, Brown, hoB, wwh,and blaze hinted at in the book. My question is, “In the book, do you also, in a more subtle way, tell which is the correct answer to one or all of the above?”~BW
        A. No I don’t madam, sorry.

        I realize that this is a poorly worded question, but at face value, F seems to be saying that the hints in the book do not help with solving some of the major clues in the poem.

        If the “hints” don’t answer these questions, then what do the hint’s relate to?

        Thoughts?

        • Colokid,

          Your question “then what do they do” has me thinking.

          But the Q&A you quoted is similar to the, hint in the book were “not deliberately place” to aid the seeker.
          So if I want to go out on a ledge here, I could see the answer to be… Fenn doesn’t ” tell ” us which is the correct answer. We still have to figure the hints out as well as the clues.

          But I could be playing the get out of jail free card on that thought.

        • Hi Colokid: here’s my take. Suppose, using the poem alone, you come up with a theory for one of the clues. It’s not 100% bombproof, but seems to be strong enough that it would take a very large coincidence for it to be wrong. But then you go to the book and you find a matching hint or two that 99.9% confirm your theory. These hints by themselves are completely innocuous to the reader, but when you’ve solved the associated poem clue they are glaringly obvious. That’s one way in which the book would not be strictly necessary for solving the poem clues, but very helpful in supplying confidence and confirmation for the searcher who’s on the right track.

          Now when Forrest has said the hints weren’t “deliberately” placed in the book to aid the searcher, I think he’s being a little cagey. They most assuredly were put in there deliberately (and there are quite a few of them, btw); they won’t aid the “searcher” who hasn’t solved the associated clue, but they certainly help a “solver” move forward.

          • Zap,

            I strongly agree with your first paragraph, and think that is probably how clues and hints are meant to work together.

            I would like to take F at his word that the hints were truly not deliberate. I don’t like the semantic with searcher and solver in the second paragraph.

            However, I don’t think this discussion applies to the quote up thread.

            The questioner says (paraphrase) that there are options for answers to the (clues) hinted at in the book. ….do you tell…which is the correct answer? F say no.

            But if as you suggest, the hint confirms an answer 99.9%, won’t it be contradicting Fenns response?

            Again the wording of the Q is awkward so it’s a bit hard to tell what F is answering but it’s interesting to think about.

            Thanks for the thoughts.

        • Isn’t the whole point of a hint that it doesn’t actually TELL you what’s correct or assist one there? If I keep glancing at a picture of my dresser drawer when you’re trying to find my diary I am not actually TELLING you it’s there….nor am I assisting you in your journey to my bedroom. The dust jacket says to unlock what’s in the pages. Not page. Pages.

        • Maybe TLGFI couldn’t get any closer because she was ‘disabled’ and didn’t speak ‘good english’. How does one get closer than the first two clues if the end is the beginning anyhow?

          (TLGFI IS REAL

          ©JParnell)

    • Seeker, for me line 16 leads me back to the book. Page 133. chest (see hest) and go IN peace (p-a-g-e-n-o-a-d-c-e).

      I come away with that as “two people can keep a secret if one of them is dead”. Which is the shadow of the standing stick.

      I think it just depends on how one solves the poem. Looking at the above, most would not see it, especially if they take his words at face value in the poem. If we don’t need to read his book, just the poem, maybe he’s saying that knowing the poem will direct you back to the book anyway. To me, that line 16 is a clue(on the path you take) but it’s supported by knowlege, which again is in the book. But the clues are not that important. Just the last one that gives your spot. I really don’t need some stick or a shadow, already know the spot. So, the only thing needed is the poem really. The book does have it’s hints, but say the poem was not in the book, and all you had was the book, no way could you find the chest. But, the poem without the book, even with line 16 guiding you there, with just the poem yes.

      I think the final solve will prove a lot of stories in the book. Maybe even certain statements. Like, “a little of me is also inside the box”. For me, that’s the key. If correct, well yippee, if not, oh well. Makes sense. If you are looking for a way to decipher the clues from info in the book, I don’t think you’ll find it. The architecture of the poem, I think, is in the solvers imagination. The more questions they can answer from his statements, the more they are following in his footsteps.

      • I’ll add, he seems to be lackadaisical when he says hints are in the book, but totally adamant about going over and over again with the poem. Plus, if someone could not afford his book, they can still get the poem. I think he made the chase even for everyone. Just because someone doesn’t have the funds for the book, that someone still could solve the poem and find the chest. Hopefully, they don’t live too far from the spot, would be a long walk.

        • “I think he made the chase even for everyone.”
          ——————————————–
          Agreed.

          … even for people who do not have access to the internet.

          Though the book probably has the backstory that describes why his chosen spot was important to him, in my opinion, the entire locational solution is in the poem.

          Yet, searchers are forever trying to run away from the poem … to the scrapbooks, to TTOTC, to arcane knowledge found in dusty old books … any source to get away from that undecipherable poem. 🙂

          Ken (in Texas)

          • Ken, I believe the poem is indeed a “road map,” that it is standalone self-sufficient, and that it will lead you to the treasure. A little background context is certainly valuable, but if you rely on books etc. for the bulk of your solution, I think it will be a road to nowhere.

            The poem is not indecipherable, IMO, and it contains very precise instructions. One of the main reasons I believe this is due to the line: “The end is ever drawing nigh.”

            The other, perhaps more important reason is that there are perhaps around 100,000 searchers worldwide – maybe more who have dropped out, and possibly millions more in the future if it is not found. The poem is freely available everywhere. How large has the print-run been for the books, by comparison?

          • @Ken – and then there are a passionate few who want to critique others’ thinking, but also have not found the treasure themselves. Wasted bytes.

        • Speaking of long walk, it brought to mind “not far, but too far to walk…” I’ve always been a fan of the band Jars of Clay, but I recently listened to one of their songs that struck a new chord with me. The song is “Boys (Lesson 1)”. Give it a listen.
          http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SmpnMGHz0hM

      • Charlie,
        If I get what your saying Line 16 on page 133 is not in the poem thus the book is needed. Sorry I may be reading your explanation wrong. Or are you saying line 16 in the poem matches the “sprinkles” in the book…?

        Going by memory here, and only a single coffee to aid me. But in either case the book would be the indicator and not so much the poem. I don’t disagree [either way] … I’m just trying to see the poem telling me, because the poem hold all the information… line of thinking.

        • oh, that line 16 is how I read it. Just take the hest page 133. That’s just the poem directing me to the book. But, I’m a strong believer that f intended everyone to participate, thus the easy access to the poem. He would know some will not get the book, so to stay even with everyone, I don’t see him putting too much into the book. Then again, line 16 guides me to the book. Go figure.

          It’s quite possible that the poem does guide one to the book but I don’t think It is critical. Like I said, that line is a path clue line for me, but it is not critical, it tells me what I already knew. Or better yet, what the poem tells me later. It’s just as I see the path, the point I would be at when following my path, line 16 clue is right after finding the blaze. Blaze, “Y” stick(line 16), direction, distance = clues 4,5,6, and 7. For me. 8th clue is where I stick that “Y” stick and 9th clue is time. Key is the date. But, that is walking in his footsteps, not really needed because already know where the spot is. Coordinates from the poem. The clues I see as the path you take and the things you go through on that path. Hope that makes sense.

          The way I see the poem: solve each line by breaking them down following instructions, which yields alpha/numeric values, which then coordinates can be figured out, in which once you have, the path can be determined. The book offers some hints like the degree of latitude, landscapes, support for alpha/numeric values, and a couple others. His after comments are big support. But all is support from the poem.

          • Charlie,
            You brought up a good thought saying;
            ” I’m a strong believer that f intended everyone to participate, thus the easy access to the poem. He would know some will not get the book, so to stay even with everyone, I don’t see him putting too much into the book.”

            So I went and found the “opportunity” Q&A;
            “My question is… when the treasure was hidden, did you follow the clues just like they are mentioned in the poem or did you just go to where you wanted to hide it, knowing that the poem would lead someone there? Does that make sense? ~Tim
            Tim,
            I knew from the beginning where to hide the treasure. It wasn’t until later that the clues were provided to find that spot. I don’t know “…that the poem will lead someone there,” as you asked, but the poem does provide everyone with that opportunity. f ”

            Your comment raised an eyebrow.
            Did fenn have the foresight of folks being able to have easy, free access to the poem [ in 2010 or even earlier ]… but knew the book could only be purchase at a single book store in NM, and with just the poem’s easy reviewing, does everyone still have that same opportunity has a purchaser of the book with the poem contained within?

            “The poem does provides everyone” [ in this answer ]… no mention of the book. [even though the question wasn’t asked about the book directly]

            Add in the “All of the information you need to find the treasure is in the poem. The chapters in my book have very subtle hints but are not deliberately placed to aid the seeker. Good luck in the search. f” ”
            and another [ I don’t have the exact quote ] fenn saying; he keeps telling searcher to go back to the poem… he doesn’t want to say it again… I recall this was a Q&A on MWs.

            Charlie, you and I have chat about the poem, and have different ideas and shared thoughts, but we share those thoughts without malice or ego… this is why I asked questions and offer thoughts. Thanks for just reminding me that my last brain-cell still works, but needs a kick once in a while.

      • Hey Charlie,
        The last two sentences say it all. That’s the only way it will be found…
        Forrest answers have had so much information in them if only the people knew enough to look deeper into his thoughts.
        Be safe
        Timothy

    • Seeker
      The Poem/Book Book/Poem conundrum has plagued the Chase since the beginning…It has been offered up that because the Poem was available on its own before the book came out, that means that all one(Searcher) needed is the poem. There are those that stand by that premise. I also believed that for awhile.
      I believe that the early release of the Poem was a lead in to advertise and garner more interest in the book. Maybe a few were out running the Rockies in search of the Treasure before the book’s release, who knows…I know I did 2 searches before buying the TTOTC.
      To answer your #2 (poem directs to book), I do not believe the poem in any way tells the reader to refer back to the book. For those that do, I say have at it…
      *To me, the book is the vessel that carries the Poem and is so by design. Forrest has said tons of things that do not quite add up and/or make us ask questions. I believe Forrest is a clever guy that enjoys engaging people with wit and humor. I also believe he loves telling of his adventures and the knowledge he gained through the years. I believe any confusion created involving the Chase is directly related to misinterpretation of things he has shared or offered to questions asked.
      I think when folks ask if the book is necessary and his answer is yes, because the poem is in the book…that is just Forrest being witty and maybe poking the hornets nest a bit. He has stated over and over to read the book and read the poem. He has also stated that good research materials are TTOTC Google earth and/or a good map.
      To sum this up I will say that I cannot believe that the Poem is a stand alone road map to the Treasure. Unless it is what he has said it isn’t, I do not think it could stand the test of time without some background…

      • I forgot TLGFI … she can’t get past the first two clues because she doesn’t have the book…

          • Thank you, SL. This is nice to know. The little girl sure became quite popular among the discussion. The first two clues that seems to stump people just the same. Clues are to be easier as we follow them. The first two clues, which should seem to be the hardest, can be determined by the little girl, the little boy, etc.. Hmmm.

        • Hi ken: the TLGFI acronym is thrown around a lot, but it’s actually erroneous. It should be TLGII. Here’s the original complete question from the Mysterious Writings 6-Questions:

          “Your treasure hunt has inspired people worldwide to discover history, culture and nature, but many people, (even in the US) might be deterred because they don’t live near the Rockies or can’t afford to travel. Should they be deterred? Can a little girl in India, who speaks good English, but only has your poem and a map of the US Rocky Mountains, work out where the treasure is? And would she be confident as she solves each clue, or only confident when she has solved them all?”

          I agree with Forrest’s answer: “I wish I had another treasure to hide in the Appalachians. The little girl in India cannot get closer than the first two clues. There are many disabled people who are deeply into maps and geography, and they are having a lot of fun.”

          The reason she can’t do better than solving the first two clues is that her map is completely ill-suited to the task. The MW question was quite specific: she only has the poem and a map of the US Rocky Mountains. I don’t care where you live, if that’s the only map you’ve got, you will never solve anything beyond the second clue because that map’s scale is too coarse.

          • That is a distinct possibility in regards to your “…US Rocky…” opinion Zap. But, WHAT IF, you do not need a real good map for the first two clues? That might be a game changer…Other than that distinct possibility the rest of the TLGII fiasco IS redundant IMO…

          • Ken — it’s sort of a clue in the sense that Fenn is suggesting that a coarse map (such as one covering the entire US Rocky Mountains) may nevertheless be sufficient to solve the first two clues. Such a map is certainly sufficient for ~my~ first two clues, but absolutely no further than that.

          • “Hi ken: the TLGFI acronym is thrown around a lot, but it’s actually erroneous. It should be TLGII.”

            I started that! 🙂

            http://mysteriouswritings.com/six-questions-with-forrest-fenn-over-five-years-of-the-thrill-of-the-chase/#comment-122112

            I noticed my typo the first day, but didn’t bother to correct it. Then it caught on and became THE acronym. I’d apologize but really I’m kind of proud of it.

            You’re also slightly wrong. My version has become the official way of saying it, having been adopted by both Forrest and Jenny.

            http://mysteriouswritings.com/featured-question-and-weekly-words-from-forrest-fenn-little-girl-from-india/

            The original version did say “in”, though, which led to people trying to gauge the distance from India to the Rockies because, they thought, she can’t get closer because she is IN India.

            I stand by my version.

          • Hi JeremyP: I’m fine with the “evolved” TLGFI acronym — it’s actually a little easier to remember. As Forrest wrote, we’ve gotten a lot of mileage out of it. But it’s still ~mostly~ a non-hint. With the right mindset you can come up with WWWH with a broad map of the U.S. Rockies, but you will go no further. And the inability to go further with *that* map means that you will not be confident that you have the correct WWWH. Only solving the 3rd clue gives you confidence you’ve got the first two right.

      • Ken,

        You said: “I believe that the early release of the Poem was a lead in to advertise and garner more interest in the book.”

        I agree. Fenn doesn’t profit from the book but his friends at Collected Works do, and so does the charity. Because of this F does have a motive (benevolent not bad) for promoting the book and encouraging people to use it. Has anyone ever heard F say anything of a discouraging nature to any searcher? No….he wants folks in the Chase and he holds out the hope that many things might help (like the book). Some folks may take him a little too literally. How many are out there thinking a flashlite and sandwich are going to bust this wide open?

        If he says there are hints I believe him but I think how much they ultimately help a searcher may remain to be seen. Subtle could be an understatement.

        • colokid,
          It’s my opinion that the subtle clues in the books are there to confirm the clues that you have made with the poem. No one will out wit Forrest but there’s no reason that we can not be on the same plain as him. This is a man which is amazing in everything he does, but Forrest also is the one that has told us that imagination is more important than knowledge. He is telling everyone how to deal with the poem. You actually have to step into his shoes to try and see how he would write a poem like that. Think about it like this, Forrest did write the poem but he has left it to us exclusively to read it and see it anyway we choose. I have chosen to see it through his eyes. What made him happy? What made him sad? War was so important but so was beautiful art work. What was important to Forrest? This is how I broke out Forrest life and then I started to match things up with the poem and before I knew it almost 3 years past and i now have my answer and am going to go put BOTG. The easiest thing I can say is “find what is key to Forrest” then the puzzle pieces start to fit without force fitting them together…
          Best of luck and be safe
          Timothy…IMHO

      • Ken,
        I have always thought the book was the “vessel” for presenting the poem to the public. I’d doubt anyone would but a single 4 stanza poem from a book store on it’s own.
        But to be honest, you said;
        “I believe that the early release of the Poem was a lead in to advertise and garner more interest in the book.”
        That’s a new one on me. There was an early release of the poem? prior to the book release. { I have never heard this, if true } That would make my post post inquiry completely irrelevant, and in the same breath… the book.

        • hmmm?

          Ken, I’m just as in the dark as Seeker about the “early poem release”. I don’t recall ever seeing anything about it. But I could very well have missed it.

          Could you, or anyone else, provide a link to where that can be found?

          Thanks in advance!

          • All I can say seeker and loco is I only remember it because Dal made the comment in response to me saying that I believed early on in the Chase the book was the main conveyance of the poem(or something to that effect) and that the book was necessary to understanding the poem. Dal chimed in and stated that the poem was available before the book came out. This was not too awful long ago. Me bad for not saving that reference. I will try to locate it…

          • A few months ago, I remember posting that I thought the poem had preceded the book (in terms of publication date). However, I misspoke, because I had no direct evidence to back up that statement. It’s probably logical that FF wrote the book after finishing the poem, but I don’t know whether the poem was released “into the wild” as a separate item after or before the book. It may only have been available in the book at the outset – I don’t know.

          • vox-
            I started following the Forrest’s website before he announced the treasure hunt. I remember that the “Thrill of the Chase” section on his website appeared at the same time that the book became available at Collected Works Book Store. On his website he had a couple stories from the book, the poem , some resources and a link to buy the book. So it all appeared publicly at the same time.

          • Thank You, Jake!! You da Man!! (well, this time anyway 😉 )

            @Ken: Here is Dal’s reply to you- –

            Ken-

            No one ever had to buy the book to read the poem. The poem was made freely available on Forrest’s website starting in 2010 when he announced the chase and published the book.
            ——————

            I’m not sure how got, “poem was released early”, out of it???

            Good Luck to Ya, Ken!!!

          • Ya loco,
            Just finished watching my Patriots smear the Browns at home.
            Kinda gives new meaning for HOB which is also a smear.
            I am always da man & canines are mans best friend.

          • I think people talking about the “early release” are referring to the first printing of 1000. F paid for those and some newspaper articles say he was basically passing then out on the streets of Santa Fe. It shares an ISBN with another printing but the second printing was once he handed it over to Collected works. Each printing is slightly different from color of cover to the copyright page etc. I have one of each and they’re all unique in one way or another. The actual “first printing” wasn’t through Collected Works, some call that the “early release” it was paid for and distributed by Fenn.

      • Back for another part of your post Ken, you said;
        “I believe any confusion created involving the Chase is directly related to misinterpretation of things he has shared or offered to questions asked.”
        Yep, we look for any help, and we see what we hope to see…
        Fenn as stated that he chose the avenue of a poem to present the “clues”. [There can be many reasons for this.]
        He also said, the book will help the average person.
        As well as he tells us the book is a good research material. If the poem does stand on it’s own. What’s the purpose of ‘any’ research?… I’m not say that a reader may not need to refresh there brains by looking something up, such as meanings of words etc. things that we should know. But why even mention the book if the poem is “all”?

        HA!. Look at me, arguing for the book, when most call me a poem purist. Actually I’m a realist in thought and hobby [ Hobby; realist is my new term for enjoying fishing ] I know, I know… don’t quit my day job, I won’t make it at a comedian.

  40. ken wrote:
    “To sum this up I will say that I cannot believe that the Poem is a stand alone road map to the Treasure.”
    —————————————————————————————————–

    from one Ken to another Ken …

    Here is the direct quote from FF’s book: “So I wrote a poem containing nine clues that if followed precisely, will lead to the end of my rainbow and the treasure:”

    If that statement does not convince you that the entire solution is in the poem, then nothing I could say here will convince you.

    Ken (in Texas) 🙂

    • yes Ken… the poem is the solution that gives nine clues, I get that very clearly. My premise is that the book and a good map will help decipher the nine clues in the poem. Note, your quote came FROM the BOOK…

  41. SCENARIO…
    500 years from now a girl/guy finds a crumpled up, yellowed piece of paper in the attic. After straightening it out, an un named Poem is staring him/her in the face.
    What then? Read it and then what?…

    • Type in a line from the poem.
      He has succeeded in being remembered in the future. IMO
      I hope this answer,s your question. “What then?

  42. Vox
    I have to say that I applaud you for your unique solve(undisclosed) and you do have a great delivery. I like your tenacity and conviction as well….That being said, your ..”more important reason…” statement makes no sense in your defense of only needing the poem. The low numbers of books sold, compared to the possible hundreds of thousands of copies of the poem obtained, seems to say that the failure ratio may be related to NOT having the book.
    Let’s be honest here…without ANY back story or access to info on the blogs would you still stand tall with your methodology? An isolated person with nothing but the poem would not even know what the chest looks like or that the poem leads to a treasure.

    • Ken, firstly, thanks for the kind comments.

      Secondly,you make a valid point concerning the low circulation of the book possibly hindering the search, but what I was trying to say was that the circulation was never likely to be sufficient to satisfy the needs of all searchers, worldwide, and therefore the poem needs to be able to stand on its own.

      As far as back story goes, I have found knowing one or two things about Forrest useful – but not essential – in my search. For me, all the info is in the poem, but knowing a little about Forrest provided a couple of “shortcuts.” From my perspective, the poem is a masterpiece of cunning and disguise, and is so complete that it doesn’t need anything else.

      You have to ask yourself why Forrest would go to the trouble of spending 15 years perfecting the poem, if it’s merely an index to the book?

  43. imo – for me the poem is all we need it has nothing to do with the life and what FF did – I think that we are trying to put ff life in the poem when imo its just a map of land marks that will lead you to the treasure – the partner to the poem is GE map but that’s just my opinion

  44. The book is a key because it gets you thinking like FF. And this is why we need to start looking for what’s at the end of his rainbow and not the chest because the chest will be there. So the only why we can understand how he thinks is through the book and with that it will help you understand the poem. To catch a criminal you have to think like a criminal. Not saying his a criminal lol. Stop asking where and start asking why.

    • JW,
      You bring up a good point ~ Rainbow… Not that it hasn’t been talked to death in the past… But, it was most curious that rainbow [ whatever it means ] was the first thing said the poem would “lead” us to. Kinda make the treasure less important and the rainbow top priority… if we take placement of that word to be deliberate.
      imo, placements of words is just as important to fenn as meanings and usages of words.

  45. “So I wrote a poem containing nine clues that if followed precisely, will lead to the end of my rainbow and the treasure:” f

    Lead: A suggestion or piece of information that helps to direct or guide; tip; clue: and to guide in direction, course, action, opinion, etc.; bring:

    Forrest’s statement doesn’t mean that all you need is the poem to find the treasure. He says it will lead you to it. In leading you, it describes places (in his own terms) that are on a map, so you should refer to a map, he even says a map will help. He also says the book will help, so read the book. These are items that will help lead you to the TC.

    Granted that the clues and directions to the TC are all in the poem, but you first must find the physical starting place. To do this you need other reference material even if it’s only a map, but why not use all of the information you can get from the internet. Seems logical to me.

    If you didn’t know the definition of a word or words, i.e., tarry or scant and you had to look it up in the dictionary then aren’t you using something besides the poem? His poem leads us by his twisted or bent definitions of carefully chosen words, he makes up his own metaphors for goodness sake. In order to decipher them you need to understand where he’s coming from that’s why you should to read the book. IMO

    • The problem, Ritt, is one of discernment. What is useful information, and what will lead you off into the weeds.

      I agree that reading the books etc. for general background and getting to know Forrest better is probably a good idea, but for many it goes well beyond that, and could easily become a tangle of dead-ends.

      • Voxpops, that’s the nature of the beast of too much information.

        Forrest says think! What do you do when you think? You sort through all of the information to employ your mind rationally and objectively in evaluating or dealing with a given situation. In this case, deciding what is or is not relevant to the poem. The one who does this best will be the one most likely to find the TC.

        Forrest has done a lot of thinking on this poem (15 years) or so, and he even changed it over time. Why? Thinking is the key, and in thinking, the more information you have at your disposal, regarding the subject, the better choices you can make.That is why it seemed logical to Forrest that a deep thinking treasure hunter could use logic to determine an important clue to the location of the treasure. You must think, but think logically.

        • I totally agree with the notion of using thought and logic. I believe the solution requires the intense application of analytical thought and clear logic.

    • Ritt,
      I do agree with your assessment. So i’m just being critical to the comments for thoughts / analyzing only. By saying, to what you said;
      ” it describes places (in his own terms) that are on a map, so you should refer to a map, he even says a map will help. He also says the book will help, so read the book. These are items that will help lead you to the TC.”

      The book does say there are hint sprinkled with in. I dare say when the thought of starting all this, GE was just a twinkle in the founders mind, and maps were suggested must later after the release of the book. While fenn’s after the fact are very helpful in that respect… I still trying to work with what was known at the time period of the release of the book. I tend to think if fenn did finalize his first thought of… going to die and taking it with him. We would never know of the after the facts. I personally don’t rely on them as completely needed, but thought provoking.
      So is a map of any kind truly needed? or is it just common sense to utilize maps because of the descriptions in the poem.

      And this is the reason for my post here, trying to understand what information is needed and how do we understand that. But yeah, I agree with most of what you see it as.

      • As an example of how a map is useful. I had my wwwh, and I could see on a map how to take it “In the canyon down, not far but too far to walk.

        On the map, I could see a place to “put in”. Once here I read the next line, “From there it’s no place for the meek…” I puzzled over this for three days until I noticed a creek, a basin, a mountain, and a mountain peak all named something. This something was not for the meek. Without the map, I doubt that I would have ever been able to get past my “put in” spot. Just my experience. JDA

        • JDA for me I cant see any other way to work with the poen other then what you just mentioned- you need to see something to compare with

          • Frank,
            Fenn has said; a good map, right map, a map is a map and the more detailed the map the better. In different comments.

            What is a good, right, detailed map? lol, That has been a topic of many conversation over the years. I look at the suggestion of GE mapping to its capabilities. But even then, do we know which type of map fenn refers to. Is any old Road Map or Travel map good enough? Or we to utilize more than one map out of necessity… Topo, GE visual, roads and historical sites, an air nautical type of map, a map the only shows water routes in full detail… So you can see a Blaze on one a type of map but not on another type line of thinking. I can say the same for water, hoB, canyon, and who the heck nows if no place for the meek is a physical place or an emotional experience on might have.

            Imo. To simply pick a map and look for something, just to see if we can find something, is one of those rabbit holes we all encounter. Even when fenn said, look at it as if putting and X on the map. Which map is ‘he’ referring to?

            Many thoughts and questions come with a lot of fenn’s comments.

          • seeker – satellite view and images on the computer is a start – that what works for me

      • Seeker,
        Let’s just say that you have figured out where warm waters halt and that you concluded that it was at Old Faithful in Yellowstone. Well, good. Then what would do next? Get a map and look for it! Or use Google Earth. In either case you would look for it on a map and go to the next clue, i.e., look for a canyon to take it down. In any case you would want to know where your answers lead. Of course, you could go put BOTG without a map, but that would mean you already knew how to get there and proceed w/o a map. That doesn’t seem logical to me. So, wouldn’t you look a a map first, before going BOTG?

        At the time of his book release, Forrest probably assumed that any searcher would include a map of the mountains north of Santa Fe when trying to solve his poem (only logical), but he had to include it later because many were saying that you only need the poem. He has said all of the info that you need is in the poem, he didn’t say that the poem is all you need.

        My understanding is why not use a map!

    • Rift,
      Good thoughts. I suspect that he didn’t really use the word ‘research’ the way most people think he did. I would submit that he meant it more like the book is something that ‘could help’.

      We all know he’s a wordsmith, is interested in word definitions/meanings, and hide clues within words. And, per your last paragraph, makes a guy wonder why he didn’t say a dictionary would make for good ‘research’ material.

      • Good point, Colokid.

        Maybe he just assumed we would use the dictionary and maps, it’s only common sense,(which he has a lot of) to use these common tools.

        • I would suppose that if he said google earth would help you – he assumed you where already using a computer. IMO the answer to everything you need is on the net, plus a good map. plus the poem and the book.

  46. There’s probably a reason that the poem is on page 132 in TTOTC( not that the page #means anything) and not at the beginning of the book.
    Vox in your Anomaly post you referenced many times info that was important to your solve that was outside the poem…that helped you determine where to start. In fact you said it was essential…if that is true, how can the Poem alone stand the test of time? Not picking Vox, I am just very curious/confused with your reasoning. No offense meant…
    Seeker…just recently there was a thread in regards to early release of poem( Dal mentioned it in response to one of my similar comments above).

    • No, you’re absolutely correct, Ken, I did say that. The two things outside of the poem that I found essential were:
      1. Imagination
      2. Geographical knowledge

      Both of those things fed into my WWWH. I then discovered that the information was in the poem anyway, thus I was able to confirm my hypothesis.

      • Not being picky Vox… but what about the 85/15 and the backwards bike tie in, not to mention the use of Google maps? Are those referenced in the poem or just convenient tools that made your solve work out the way you needed it to?
        You are obviously a very bright guy Vox to come up with what you have and I am all ears, but this thing needs to stand the test of time AND be unbiased to work.
        Best…

        • Lol! Yes you are being picky, but I don’t mind. (Well spotted, btw!)

          85/15: I only checked this after having gotten the info from the poem. In fact I didn’t know anything about the 85/15 statement until months after deciding on the spot, when it was brought up in one of Forrest’s posts. I was delighted to find that it coincided with where I was looking.

          Backwards bike: I have to confess I’ve not got around to looking at the youtube video referenced, but I heard about this just before setting off on my most recent search. It was actually the “drawing” that was in my mind at the time, but I realized that it fitted the notion of a backward bike and the concept of the twin/mirror that others have spoken about. So I think, in this instance, knowing that a backward bike had been brought up did help to confirm my thought process, but again it was in no way necessary to the solution. I should also point out that the drawing and where it took me helped me solve the LGFI problem at the same time!

          Google maps: I take this as self-evident and a given. You need to use maps unless you have incredibly detailed geographical awareness of the Rocky Mountain region (I think Forrest has said as much).

          So yes, I take on board any relevant information that’s floating about, but everything begins with the poem for me. I truly believe that it can be solved with the poem, good map(s), and imagination/logic. Everything else is icing on the cake. That’s not to say that it’s not incredibly hard work to get the poem to give up its secrets, so if Forrest happens to drop a useful hint it would be silly not to make use of it – if you know how it applies. My poem purity is not absolute in that sense.

  47. talk about rainbows – ff plays mind games to see if you can catch his clues that he gives us – there is a big clue with his rainbow for me – what you start out looking for in point A is what you will find at point B – if you notice that the rainbow does not touch the ground – that tells me no BOG till at the end where he parked – that’s just what I see and its just an opinion

    • frank,

      Lots of people are talking about rainbows and using the rainbow statement in their solutions. The problem for me is that this line isn’t in the poem so, at best, it could only qualify as a hint (per Fenn definition of a clue).

      The phrase “pot of gold at the end of a rainbow” is so ubiquitous in the English language I wonder why this simple conclusion isn’t the correct application/explanation for it’s use in the book? Can’t that useage be a metaphor for what F has done? It certainly fits within the context in which it is used.

      • I agree Colokid,
        The rainbow ref can only be a hint & is probably a ref to his life & death.
        After all his life was pretty colorful.
        But in the back of my mind I also see a waterfall with a mist creating a rainbow at the end where the last Omega is.

      • colokid and jake what you guys are saying it very well could be- wearher a clue or a hint I don’t bay much to that – every mind has a trail of its own and for me it says that after all we are trying eather it has to do with his life or something to do with our trip its all good

      • We do have the other usage of rainbow to mean dreams and fantasies. Which was also mentioned in the preface.
        A connection? Subtle hints? and the fact that is it mentioned with the treasure, and where it’s placement is… does it relate to the after the fact comment… most likely be solved by imagination?

        So we have been told imagination is better than knowledge… is this how the poem should be read? Maybe straightforwards is not looking for the chest in water or traveling down as canyon etc. But something altogether different and of a different perspective. That follow my rainbow thoughts of ‘follow the dreams and fantasies.’

        It still is interesting that rainbow was added at all to finding the chest. That is what I call an aberration that lives on the edge. ” something different “

        • My interpretation of Fenns use of the phrase “abberation …on the edge” (as he discusses hints) is that there are hints even more obscure than the ones he considers “subtle”. To me this would mean harder to recognize, and less likely to be associated with the poem, clues, or readily viewed as useful in any way.

          Fenn has literally left us a pot of gold to go look for so it is hard for me to see the ‘rainbow’ reference as subtle or likely to be a useful word…..But that’s just me.

          • The place that I “think” that the treasure chest lies is constantly being covered over by a fine mist from my waterfall. The mist creates an almost constant rainbow when the light is right. The place is “wet” because of these mists. Forrest talks about the waterfall in Viet Nam turning to mist before it hits bottom.

            It is all coming together- I hope I have found his rainbow. JDA

          • i agree JDA, the chest is not in the water, but wet from the spray of a waterfall,i think the blaze is ,when you get to the right waterfall, you look back at the trail you have blazed, to the top of the falls, then look quickly down . to see the chest.IMO

          • JD,

            “How can anything be in the Rocky Mountains and not be wet,” he said. “Even if it were buried six feet deep, it would still be wet. That’s not a real clue. f”

            Good luck.

        • Just my thoughts. The reason I say we need to look for the end of his rainbow. Its not that I think we need to decipher the word rainbow. But to remember the big picture that the place he put the chest is special to him. that he wanted to die at this spot not to buried with his family. This place must have meant a lot to him. And if we get stuck thinking about,
          I wonder if he put the chest under a rock, in a creek, in a hole of a tree, and so on. I feel were not looking at the big picture. Your destination is small but the location is huge.IMO Mean your going for the chest but i went for the location. It’s the end of his rainbow. The end of his chase. Putting your self in some else’s shoes is very hard to do.
          So in your search just remember to think what would make this place special to him and what brought him to find this place.

          • Good thoughts JW – Good luck in your searches, may you find all that you seek, and TRY to STAY SAFE JDA

        • lol, Seeker, my rainbow comes from the wy. med wheel. The degree from the middle cairn is f’s names’ letter value. To X. I’ll find that bell someday…

          • Perhaps his “multicolored” ball of string ties into his rainbow somehow. I often joke that if I ever find the treasure, I will find his ball of string with it.

  48. Seeker wrote:

    “What is a good, right, detailed map?
    Imo. To simply pick a map and look for something, just to see if we can find something, is one of those rabbit holes we all encounter. Even when fenn said, look at it as if putting and X on the map. Which map is ‘he’ referring to?”

    Seeker,
    You and so many others have debated this for some time now. I’ll throw in my two cents here and say: You don’t need any map until you discover, solve, or decipher a poem clue that relates to a physical place or area. Then you can determine which “type” of map you need to locate that location. Then maybe the next clue you discover requires a different type of map, and so on. But, you can bet your bottom dollar you will need some type of map before you can complete the quest for the TC. This is where logic and imagination comes into play and you make the best choice to suit the outcome of your discovery. IMO

    • Ritt,
      This comment and the other comment you posted above are my line of thinking as well. But who’s to say our line of thinking is correct. What i find interesting is, very little or none at all talked about a map for a solve or helping solve the poem prior to fenn’s comment ” GE and / or a good map ” an since then, many believe you can solve the clues without some kind of map. That didn’t help a lot of searcher for the first couple years… if true.

      Again, I lean toward your line of thinking… to refresh or utilize information we don’t know personally. Fenn, more than likely knows the location like the back of his hand… so common sense dictates he has that advantage. Yet , just like trying to understand if the the poem directs us to the book or is it simply common sense to use what we were presented with… are they “needed” to solve the poem or just helpful?
      Could the pic of the map with the frog be a hint, a ‘subtle hint’ that a map is “needed”? or is it just a picture.

      The simple explanation is, if many feel they are “needed to solve the poem, but only meant to be helpful tools, By using them as the “only” way to solve the poem seems to be, forcing them to work. My example for argument would be that we need to find a physical large canyon to take it in, and not think of other options of what a canyon could refer to [ example only, even though I have explained the possibility of just that in an armchair post ]

      So yes, we will, more than likely need a map, “before you can complete the quest” like you stated.
      Because we may not know of the place or like fenn knows it… but is the map needed for a clue[s]to be solved?

      I’m in analyzing mode at the moment… so my post and thoughts are of both options, and only to get thoughts from others to, Well, help with thoughts. Thanks… you added common sense back into it.
      PS. I could have easily used the last stanza as the same example of telling us to go to the book. In-fact that could be the use of both stanzas. I went alone in my memories , and ya better listen, I gave you what you need to solve the poem… it’s in the wood ~ the book.

      • Seeker: ” I gave you what you need to solve the poem… it’s in the wood ~ the book.”
        I guess we have to be brave to open the cover & read it…..

        • Do you know the other definitions of brave Jake. Or do we forget fenn looked up meanings of words.

          You might have to look up more than one definition source… while you’re at it…check out “waters”

          • How could anyone forget he said that.
            You have only posted here countless times.

            He never says that he USED different meanings of words, just looked them up.
            Sorry, I’m not in that camp. Besides, it doesn’t jive with excellent research materials.
            Keep on digging.

          • Pick and choose as ya like Jake… a few others may agree you.

            I on the other hand attempt to see all the comments and possibly that would help understand what I don’t understand.

            I’ll back away for now so you and those few can keep telling how great the solve you think you have.
            And how many times that solve didn’t pan out.

          • Actually, he said ‘if I had to look up a word I just didn’t use it’….which one could say means he used basic knowledge, and another might say his insane vocabulary is sure that he already was a walking human encyclopedia of word history. Hmm. Something about the coy fennesque of the statement leads me to believe that option B is rather probable. As I see no reason to write it in the first place and devote a portion of the book to such “important literature” otherwise.

          • Jonsey,
            Fenn also stated in the book;
            I tend to use some words that aren’t in the dictionary, and others that are, I bend a little.
            One definition of halt is to stop. And stop means stop or end, right?
            Another usage of stop is; noun: a set of organ pipes of a particular tone and range of pitch.
            Could stop relate to sound, which relates to waters Halt… to ‘hear me all and listen good’

            A poem, fenn’s choice to present the clues, give the write freedom of word usages to mean what he wants them to mean, and for the reader to have to interpret how the word is usable for the meaning of the poem.
            Still straightforwards… but just not commonly used in this way.

            Scant means small amount… commonly used, But small amount of what? Space or location, time, size of an object? what is scant in relations to?
            Fenn said, words he used were deliberate, and over time prefect the poem to what he wanted it to be.
            We need to understand why they were deliberately chosen. That comes through interpretation. A poem’s main usage is for freedom of word choice, and not always the common.y understood.

          • I totally agree Seeker. In another of his books he says something to the effect of ‘poetry is just prose beneath a capital letter. If you look at ‘home of Brown’ as the Capital B defining it as a proper noun and, therefore, a ‘home’…then one might look to the capital B in the book. What’s intriguing to me here is that in at least one of the printings the anomaly inside is that that particular B is about two shades off the other letters making it brown while the others are red. It’s not noticible casually but certainly distinct when one does. Similarly in all (I think) the books the 1943 postmark is distinctly copper. Always makes me think of the 1943 steel vs copper penny incident. Just fun to consider, maybe just a random accident but makes me smile.

  49. I got it now.
    The poem refers to the book & the book refers to the poem & the poem refers to the book & so on.
    I can see we are getting a lot done here.
    Need I go any further with this nonsense?

    The poem & the book is needed because the poem is in the book & there are hints in the book that help with the clues in the poem.
    Lets see how many ways we can twist this around.

    • Jake, I won’t speak for the others who have joined in, or the ones who might be following along on the side lines… but am I boring you? Or did you miss the point that this is about what we knew or thought we knew from the start to, 6 years later with after the fact comments.

      I mean, there isn’t a piece of the poem or the book or the add on information that has not been talked about… however for me, and maybe those who joined in…more discussion might help.

      Well, there still is that important possibility thing….any thoughts on that?

      Not unlike the discussion that folks who were at the first two clues may have only been tourist or searchers not in search mode…. and just taking in the sights.

      If we’re all so correct, how can we be wrong?

      • maybe a better way we can try to understand this is, why he calls TTOTC his memior but what he put in the chest is his autobiography? Are they the same? Doesn’t sound like it. Maybe its a better way understand the subtle clues?

  50. as I have gone alone in there with my treasures bold I can keerp my secrets where and hint of riches new and old – picture if you will – remember he used to sign his name with two omegas – picture the omega being a pit in the ground where he went alone in there – key word in there- now picture a hole -in the wall of the pit witch would make it look like an omega – new and old is a hole – old is the pit that’s all ready made and new is the hole that he made to to hide the chest forming an omega go to if you will to scrapbook 148 and when you get there you will see what I think it says that to me is the first stanza imo

    • Frank;

      I could well be wrong, but I am not aware of Forrest ever signing his name with the Double Omega’s.

      The Double Omega’s appear on the very last page of his two books TTOTC and TFTW on what is known as the Colophon page. Please let me know if I am wrong, and where you got your information about Forrest using the Double Omega as part of his signiture. Making misleading statements can confuse the newer searchers. JDA

      • JDA that’s why I put IMO at the end – to me it means I could be right or wrong its my opinion – take it or leave it they have a choise

    • frank,
      I must have missed some info.
      When did he sign his name with 2 Omegas?
      I would love to know the date when he started & ended doing this if he did.
      Can you show some links to docs he signed?

      • Jake a lot of pictures and comments have been removed from the blog from way back by dal I have had to ask him for pictures before that have been removed and he has found them for me I have asked him for help to get you the info you asked for

      • I think he did the double at the end of the story about diggin gypsy on this blog. He also did a single Omega above the final poem he wrote for Eric in seventeen dollars a square inch and another single one in another place. 😉

        • As far as The date on the single one in $17 copy I have was published in 2007. Same font etc as the double in TTOTC. It is available on old Santa Fe trading website.
          The other single one in a different publication predates that one several years but I’d rather not mention that book here because I’m still trying to locate a few copies myself for the archives.

          • Jonsey 1- thanks for your help I knew I had seen it somewhere but I don’t keep records and I couldn’t remember where it was back in the early days – dal answered back so go down and read what he said I hadn’t read your comment I was waiting for dal to answer and yoes there is a smile on face again thanks

  51. looking but like seeker said its been sometime back mybe if dal is reading he could lend a hand I don’t keep records like some do I will kep looking but if I can remember right that where I seen them – but if they are in the book or where he signed that should mean for something

    • Frank saying, “but if they are in the book or where he signed that should mean for something.” Being in the book is NOT the same as signing his name with a Double Omega.

      Just admit you were mistaken, and move on. That way, new searchers will not be confused. Just a thought. JDA

      • Frank- or don’t admit it and post a link to the scrapbook about Diggin and smile to yourself 😉

      • Omegas look like horseshoes to me… Fording the river on horseback… heavy loads…worth the cold…lucky lucky…empty saddle…their horse used to mean a lot to many people in the course of any day….not mentioned yet….just saying

    • Frank-
      I was away all afternoon so I didn’t see this until you asked in an email..
      Here is what I wrote back to Frank in an email-

      I did a comment search on Ω or ΩΩ.
      There were 5 pages of comments with those items…about 94.
      I made 3 comments using Ω or ΩΩ
      None of the comments were from Forrest.
      I don’t believe there has been a comment from Forrest on this blog where he used a Ω or ΩΩ
      That doesn’t mean he didn’t use a Ω in a story or a post on the blog..in fact I am certain he did…
      but I can’t find a comment where he left a Ω.

  52. JDA and Jake – just to say that I was wrong about ff and the omega dal answered and he said he didn’t think that forrest had done it and that he thought that it might of been him so for that I apologize I steel stand on my opinion of stanza one of what I think it means

  53. JDA and Jake – dal just answered back again and this is what he said- frank that doesn’t mean that he didn’t use a omega in a sto9ry on the blog in fact I am certain he did but I cant find the comment where he left the omega end of quote

      • Jonsey1 – lol thanks I took a picture of it for another just in case – you were great and I thank you and dal for the help – I felt bad at first but you and dal turned it to a smile so there it is folks

      • I was thinking signing or signed as with a pen, marker, or pencil without signing ” f ” or ” f f “.
        I am familiar with the double Omegas being typed in the 2 books, seventeen dollars a square inch & Scrapbook 50.

        Anyway, the double Omegas have an important meaning & could be a pit or hole.

        I think someone asked him a question of the meaning & his reply was:
        “the relevance of the double omegas will go to the grave with the man who wrote the poem”

        This tells me the treasure is where the second omega is & of course where he was going to carry out plan A.

        • Jake,
          Scrapbook 50. He ended that SB with double omegas. So is he talking about DO in general or in relation to this SB? Who knows.

          dalon November 19, 2013 at 7:10 pm said:

          http://dalneitzel.com/2013/11/19/scrapbook-fifty/#comment-27861

          Deb-
          As soon as I saw the DOs I knew there would be questions. I asked Forrest about them.
          Here is his response-
          “the relevance of the double omegas will go to the grave with the man who wrote the poem”

          • Thanks Colokid,
            So Forrest asked for the truck pic to be added.
            The pickups are facing opposite directions, also one is red the other is blue.
            Doppler affect? Ones coming & the other is going?
            One pickup will be retired & stripped for good while the other will keep putting along.
            I see a beginning & end.
            Why else would he suggest that pic & type a couple of DO’s to boot?

  54. the wheels and the pu for me has a good clue imo – the back wheel is the first omega and to me the pu means that you drive to the other omega to the end the same goes for the rainbow to me it says the samething – but that is just my opinion.

  55. In a discussion above about the poem out before the book and Forrest keeping searchers on a even playing field.

    I had use this PDF page (will post below) on Forrest website since the beginning of my search in the early months of 2011. This excerpt was most likely posted prior to the TTOTC book release. Some had talked about these pages in the past- like page numbers didn’t match book numbers, the frog and gold nuggets were on the wrong side of the map along with the capital ” W” that is missing. But also there are only 3 stanzas posted of the poem.

    It’s my belief Forrest had this excerpt and which pages that were included out to aid all who wanted to search. Possibly some of these pages contain those helpful hints he talks about (I myself do see some), and why show only 3 stanzas, are these 3 the ones most needed to get to where “indulgence” lies? So is this excerpt helpful? I would say yes. I never seen the TTOTC book until almost 2 years into my searching, so are there other hints in the complete book? Again I would say yes, and those have helped confirmed the area of my solve too. The poem does give you direction and what to look for on that path, the hints just help in confirming some of the clues.
    Bur

    Always just food for thought.
    https://www.oldsantafetradingco.com/assets/book-previews/thrill-of-the-chase.pdf

  56. I just came back from what I thought would have been my last search. No, I did not find it because there is an adjustment I think I have to make. This last search convinces me that the treasure chest must be interred. I do believe one needs a peak, a shovel and possibly a metal detector to find the treasure chest.RC.

    • RC, sorry you weren’t able to get it in your last time out. I was rooting for ya. You sounded confident as I’m sure you still are. Plus, you’re like me in that no trip is wasted. I learn a lot about my search area each time I go out.

      I went out recently and got discouraged but I’m alright now. I’m going back in very soon. I won’t be bringing a peak tool or metal detector however, so I do hope you’re wrong in that matter.

      Good luck!

    • I think it’s called a PICK ar PICK-AXE not a peak – If it is a PEAK tool, maybe I should get one to peak around a corner or some such JDA

    • OOPS – I guess a PEAK tool would be used at the top of the mountain, where-as a PEEK tool might be used to look around a corner – oops – JDA

  57. Since some errors, anomalies or aberrations in TTOTC are legitimate hints to the clues in the poem, I thought I’d point out an error I noticed over the weekend that I don’t think has been mentioned here. On page 59 he calls the candy bars “Babe Ruth” not Baby Ruth. Perhaps it’s just an honest mistake, or he’s letting on that he’s aware of the controversy over the naming of the candy bar by the Curtiss Candy Company in 1921. (No reasonable person buys the company’s claim that they named the bar after Grover Cleveland’s daughter Ruth, given that Ruth died of diphtheria 17 years earlier. They just didn’t want to have to pay royalties to the Bambino.)

    In any case, I haven’t found any connection for the name error to any elements of my solve. There is alliteration throughout TTOTC, so maybe it’s just another subtle hint about double letters being important: Curtiss Candy, or Kandy Kake (the candy bar’s original name).

    • I agree with you, Zap, I think that is a hint. But I suspect that if a person can’t understand why he chose that misspelling, their solution is probably incorrect with respect to that part of the poem. IMO, it doesn’t have anything to do with double letters.

    • Hi Zap,

      Yeah the Babe/Baby has come up before. Here’s an example:
      http://dalneitzel.com/2014/12/19/the-nine-clues-12/#comment-67007
      Seems like there might have been other discussions but it was a while ago if I remember correctly.

      Have you watched the interview here?
      http://dalneitzel.com/video/spring/writing.html

      In the interview labeled Writing, Fenn talks purposefully making things up and including mistakes in his writing to see if anyone catches them.

      Maybe that is one of them.

      • Ahh, so SeattleSullivan spotted this mistake a couple years ago. But apparently no conclusions about whether it was accidental or deliberate, and if the latter, how it factors in with the poem. Perhaps it’s like the erroneous postal cancellation stamp dates — he just wants to see if everyone is paying attention. And speaking of those stamps, quite a few of them have illegible years (at least in my book some dates are smudged past readability), so I don’t know that people can say they are all incorrect.

    • Zap –

      Perhaps it’s this……..

      Babe Ruth “Did you Know?” – On March 17, 1918 (St. Patrick’s Day), he launched a mammoth home run from Whittington Park (Hot Springs, AR) that landed on the fly, inside the Arkansas Alligator Farm. It has been measured at 573 feet, — baseball’s first 500-foot-plus drive.

      Did he then swim in the hot springs there ? Oh yes he did…..

      Arguably the greatest baseball player of all time.

  58. Zap,
    I’m not sure the word “legitimate” is the proper word to use.
    Can you imagine if they named it: George Herman Ruth Jr.
    I am thinking the aberrations were to make the stories more palatable.

  59. All,

    I’m officially pulling my hat out of the ring.

    As an active participant in the chase and as a parting gesture of good will to all those that have provided so much beneficial advise and rational thoughts that have helped me in my journey, I’ll leave you with this.

    Read the poem over and over, to read is to decode.

    What I believe is the hidden code in which unlocks the poem, is grammar.

    There are many examples of “simple” words in the poem that we all tend to overlook because we believe we understand their true meaning, but in reality we do not.

    That is why Forrest tells us to show the poem to a kid, they may have a better understanding of proper grammar as they are being (or should be) taught it in school, over time we as adults take it for granted and think we understand the meaning of words and unfortunately use them erroneously as Forrest points out.

    Here is a good example of this and what I believe may be key in breaking down the poem:

    When a speaker places “the” before a noun, he is generally sending a signal to the user that the noun marked with “the” is something that he believes the listener already knows about. When the listener hears a noun marked by the, he usually thinks to himself “this is something that the speaker thinks I know.”

    For example, if I hear someone say “Open the door,” I know that he thinks I know which door he means. If the sentence is coming from outside of my front door…

    There are ten examples of this found within the poem:

    1. the canyon

    2. the home

    3. the meek

    4. the end

    5. the blaze

    6. the chest

    7. the answers

    8. the cold

    9. the wood

    10. the gold

    So if the above grammar rule is true then Forrest assumes we know “the answers” to each of these “the nouns”, why would he make this assumption? Forrest has said that all the information we need to find the treasure is found within the poem, this leads me to believe that “the” answers that he already knows (as he says in the poem) should be found within the poem.

    “the answers” that he already knows could be the answers to the “the nouns” and what each of them are.

    Lets look at the first “the noun”. Why say “the canyon” and not “a canyon” because Forrest assumes that we know exactly which canyon he is writing about, and if he had just written “a canyon” we would have to make an assumption as to which canyon he means, but we should already know the answer.

    A few of the “the nouns” we can easily make assumptions as to their meaning:

    1. the meek, those that are not brave or bold.

    2. the end, our destination, the end of our quest or possible the end of “our” creek.

    3. the chest, simply the treasure.

    4. the gold, the chest’s contents.

    5. the answers, the ones that Forrest already knows but we must figure out.

    The others you must figure out:

    1. the canyon

    2. the home

    3. the blaze

    4. the cold

    5. the wood

    There is a one word within the poem that I believe is key, this word may unlock an answer that opens up the poem.

    We all share a common bond or relationship with Forrest and that relationship is the writer and the reader relationship, understand how this relationship and grammar play together and it may help you in your understanding.

    Give a man a fish, feed him for a day. Teach a man to fish, feed him for life.

    Good luck all in your quest!

    LitterateOne

    • All,

      Think of the way a magician tells you to “pick a card, any card”. He doesn’t say pick the card or pick that card, because he wants you to literally pick any card. In the poem Forrest tells you to take “the canyon down” he doesn’t say “pick a canyon, any canyon”. Think, and analyze.

      Good luck

      LitterateOne.

    • Sorry to see you go Sean. You have been a good contributor over time. We each have had our moments of elation, and disappointment. I hope that your moments of elation have ought weighed those of disappointment.

      Go in peace my friend. I hope that you find all that you seek in life. JDA

    • Litterate one – we all have dreams and not all dreams come true I to have bailed out – but you know what its not all that bad – you have life children and a wife a house car and at the end really that is all that matters because the real treasure is what we have at home

    • I know you will be back Litt1,
      We just can’t walk away seeing you have so much invested.

      BTW, I wouldn’t pay too much attention to wording from someone that didn’t care too much about institutionalized education.

      What you do is what you know.

      You do it better when you do it for real & not in a classroom or behind a computer screen.

    • LitterateOne- Are you trying to say that f has pointed out “the things” and searchers just don’t see these things or don’t want to see the things? At times I’ve wondered if he has made this so much simpler than we have wanted, thus making it difficult because we want it to be harder to solve because the prize is so great.

      • Hear me all,

        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JXupxL4ovmY

        Time stamp 14:55:

        “When you read the poem it looks just, just like simple words there, but I guarantee you I worked on that thing, I felt like an architect drawing that poem.”f

        Again, I believe the hidden code or cipher that most seem to think must be there is in fact, hidden in plain sight, grammar.

        “We really don’t know the meaning of our words….. we sometimes use them erroneously” f (sic)

        “It ain’t what you don’t know that gets you into trouble. It’s what you know for sure that just ain’t so.”

        LitterateOne

        • liter81,
          In this Backpacker interview, which is very similar to the quote above [ note; in this and other interviews with only the commentator’s word’s he/she recalls… I tread softly in accuracy ]
          But for fun, and you are using grammar for hidden code, cipher. What does this interview say to you?

          He says he always knew the hiding spot, but spent 15 years massaging the clues to match before he hid the chest. With the cancer treated, he had time to get the words just right.
          {{ “People think I sat down one night and wrote that poem. I didn’t write that poem, I crafted it,” he says. “No one is going to find that treasure chest on a Sunday afternoon picnic or over spring break.”}} Backpackers interview.

          For me, the use of words such as ‘architect’ ‘blueprint’ ‘crafted’ implies a finished product that as all the pieces needed to work… line of thinking. If one piece is not used, left out or bent to fit, it simply won’t work.

          • Seeker,

            IMO you are not saying anything new, what is your point? It appears you like to fish a lot but there isn’t any bait on your hook.

            LitterateOne

          • I wasn’t fishing for anything more than your thoughts to both quotes as you see them together… Why would you think I’m looking for anything other than the question I ask you. I simply add my opinion at the same time in-case you came back to me with the same question I asked you.

            You know… the more I think about your; “It appears you like to fish a lot” and “not adding anything new” comments…

            I can see this going down the road as some others are traveling… ‘don’t say or talk about my solve/comments unless you agree with me crap.
            So before we get to that point… Just forget I asked. I’m perfectly fine withdrawing my simple question.

  60. Can anyone shed some light on a question for me? I have been wondering, for some time now, did Forrest actually come to Santa Fe with a shoeshine or was this something the article writer fabricated when writing the article. I have seen this referenced a couple of times. Any thoughts??

    • Fenngshui,
      Not 100% sure which article you are referencing and without seeing context I could be way off here but writer could mean by shoeshine that he had what he learned in his military career as an asset. Such as the discipline, attention to detail, impeccable appearance, etc. And the fact that he was career military, then yes he definitely would also literally have had shined shoes.

      • I concur, WY Girl. When I was a little girl, I remember my mother buffing my father’s shoes with a shoe brush and buffing cloth until it shined like glass, and his uniform pressed to perfection. Thank you for the memory.

      • WY girl,
        Yep, just like the poem, there needs to be context to help.

        Your ‘Impeccable appearance’ description seems to fit well with what little information I see in fenngushi post…
        fenn went to SF ‘shoeshine’ to mean, ready for business attitude. Maybe not in appearance but conviction. But not conviction of guilt, but a belief or desire. It seems straightforwards to me, appearance is the word that is key to shoeshine, but not as the visual aspect as to a confident readiness… in all honesty.

        • (Third attempt.)

          I believe WY Girl was trying to say the same thoughts as yours. He went wholeheartedly doing the things he sought.

          • PD,

            I was having fun showing how words are not always straightforward…. shoeshine was a great word for alternative usage. Imo. The poem’s 166 words may work the same. And still be straightforward just not of the simple or common usage.

  61. CHECK YOUR BLINK 😉

    In TTOTC in the war story F discusses taking off and his buddy cupping his hand over his mouth and giving a thumbs up from the runway as a symbol for “check your blink” meaning check the blinking oxygen light to make sure you’re getting enough.

    Later on, back in the US F is flying, worried about being hypoxic and specifically notes putting his thumb an inch or whatever from his eye and covering up Philadelphia.

    Now just humor me and put your thumb an inch in front of your right eye. It doesn’t cover up anything. You see right through it. Unless of course you wink with your left eye.

    The first story gives us the thumb sign to understand whats happening in the second. F takes time to write these things. Like an architect. And these sorts of things are the ‘hints’ in the book. There are many that involve the poem but I chose this one cause it’s easy to understand and doesn’t argue a specific line. Just wanted to give a GENERAL THUMBS UP to how he constructs things…without specific structure. 😉 Always check your blink! Always, always.

    • Didn’t mean to exclude you from participation 1idwille….I’m sure you understand all the same though, and could probably cover up Philadelphia with the best of em.

    • I think he was wearing a oxygen mask that may have shielded his eyes as well… don’t know. but I assume he was flying SW along the coast on the east side of Philly… a look to Philly would be a turn of the head to the right, but put his LEFT thumb over his LEFT eye (assuming he closed his right eye) so it would be a hard turn of the neck Philly. I don’t know, what is the pilots freest hand position in a jet, the type of helmet worn, was he due east or was Philly or approaching it…. all this makes me think these words don’t add up to a hill of beans. Oh wait, Beans is Boston. I wonder if we’re supposed to associate Thumb Lake and Prismatic Spring or something.

      • Whatever eye it was…if you put your thumb an inch in front of only one it doesn’t cover up anything. You see right through it…..unless you’re winking or blind with the other.

        • Whatever it means….it may be important to check ones blink…unless not a fan of brakes and turn signals and such…or just drive in a straight direction and I guess one need not worry about such insignificant details. Slow and low…

  62. So, ah, what’s going on with this website lately?
    My email notifications have been slow & way behind.
    Sometimes I get many multiple duplicates of the notification emails other times I get none.

      • I need to subscribe multiple times and most of the time I don ‘t get updates, either.

    • Jake, Mark, I’m not getting updates from wordpress either. It looks like they are having trouble over there. I’ve tried contacting them but haven’t got anything back yet.

      I’m going to do some troubleshooting later tonight after the site slows down, but right now I think everything is running fine here.

      • Thanks Goofy,
        I seem to be getting some & duplicates again.
        I was chatting with a couple folks on the WP support forum & kokkieh
        Happiness Engineer said: “they need to update to the next version of Jetpack once we release it which will hopefully resolve this issue.”

        I know, it doesn’t help much at all as usual with support.

  63. It is my opinion that after you have gone through the poem and multiple locations you will find the end or now the beginning. From there it turns to specific instructions on certain things to do and dates and times to do them. I have learned a great deal from everyone on this site but need help in this arena. My hope is to have others look at this possibility. As time moves on I plan on sharing more but just started to comment and it’s all new to me. one example would be a water clock. Seems to fit well with the blaze and water high. Any thoughts would be appreciated. Thanks

    • Set theory 🙂 I’m a fan of ALL the clocks, but especially those in Berlin…..and the one at Harvard by the Ibis….as in PM so in AM.

        • Ha! Thanks for the compliment, but alas just a lucky picture on a good day. Half my heritage is a mystery, and the other half is German and Irish so most likely no dice there.

    • Hey Jasper – I think everyone goes through a little bit of “how would I do it if I hid a treasure?” thought process. Does anyone remember the old TV show, Ellery Queen? I think I watched a total of one episode, but it made a lasting impression. In that episode a secret door was hidden on the floor or wall (I don’t recall which). In the room was a window with metal bars in it. When the sun shown through it created a perfect 8X8 grid on the floor/wall. The key to finding the secret door was, at a certain time of day, look in the square which was referenced according to its relative position on a chess board. At that precise spot one found the release mechanism for the secret door. Very cool.

      I don’t fully understand your water clock idea, but it made me think of this. Please excuse the tangent, but thanks for sparking that good memory.

  64. November 2016 issue of New Mexico Magazine, page 28,
    A photo captioned: “Dorothy Massey, owner of Collected Works in Santa Fe, talks shop with author Forrest Fenn.”
    The photo shows Massey and Fenn sitting at a table in the book store talking. Copies of Forrest Fenns books are on the table. A copy of Too Far to Walk and two copies of The Thrill of the Chase.

    The content of the article is about various bookstores in New Mexico.
    “Write Place, Write Time”

    It isn’t in the online version yet, and it isn’t inthe table of contents of the magazine.
    http://www.nmmagazine.com/

  65. Has any body seen this before?
    42.821406,-107.481309
    I don’t think it has any thing to do with the chest, because i dought any body has been within 200′ of it. I just found it interesting. Also if you look up to the north east of it there is a big V pointing to the location is marked.

    Anyway just seen if any body might know somethings.
    Thanks

    • But there is a dry creek road that leads you there and what looks like huge sand pit near it what might be heavy loads and it’s in the desert so water high. Haha wishful thinking.
      Thanks for any insight from your great minds.

    • The area is on 20 acres of “Tee” mines, active uranium mines in Natrona County currently staked by Power Resources, Inc., and on BLM land. I’d probably avoid.

      Often farmers will pull and relocate bigger stones while plowing land and place them in piles. Some are more artful than others. My speculation is that this is one of those times because older (and maybe unmaintained) structures in this area would most likely be covered by wind erosion. We would only see the ground outlines. Although these do look like some pretty big stones. Nice coords, too.

    • head 20 degrees NNE, about a quarter mile…. a rock pile arrow to it. I suspect bored engineers with a small front hoe or Scientologists.

    • That is amazing, JW. I only see one track going to the spot. You may want to learn about some of the native american creation stories. It looks like a turtle from my google map. It would be very interesting to see if anyone knows its age. Treasure or not, this is a fascinating find! Thanks for sharing.

    • A little to the north and a bit east of that alien creature is a “V” made of the same material. A little north and east again is what appears to be “XXI” carved in the ground in a serif font…and just below that is an “F”.

      That place looks like a lot of fun..but as has been pointed out it’s a uranium mining area and no place for the meek.

      • Yes. I seen all that Dal, The XXI, I thought kinda looked like XVI. I did notice the F as well. If you look in the center of the alien on the edge of the middle circle, there is a rectangular object that is definitely not a rock. The site dose have a lot of things going for it. It’s just the 200′ thing that has me hesitant on it.

        • Whenever folks discover a unique place that attracts them…such as this location with all of it’s curious landscape art..just made for viewing in GE I feel compelled to ask them to show me how the poem could lead them to this area.

          If you cannot find nine clues in the poem leading you to this spot than it is simply a novelty and not a potential search area…in my opinion.

    • Natrona County, Wyoming – Fascinating areas that have (actually) managed to withstand billions of years of geological changes.

      If I were able to get these ‘boots on the ground’…..it is here that I would go.

      It is here that I would urge others to ‘really’ do some serious searching. (There’s places that very well make the word ‘middle’ stand out like a sore thumb).

      “It’s a wonderful day in the “neighborhood.”

      SL

  66. Can anybody tell me what an ” W ” feature in the landscape relates to the poem I know I read it somewhere meaning it was near the location or ?

    And didn’t he say someone could see it 12 feet away if near it or did I dream this?..lol

    • In landscape they are the “switchbacks” as the way roads going up mountains are shaped. On Pike’s Peak they’re literally called “the W’s”. Maybe elsewhere as well, I do remember seeing the signs on my trip to Colorado…however we chose to ‘save time’ and took the Cog Railroad…but then stopped halfway up for a picnic to make up for it. If you call first they’ll let you off there just tell them when you make the reservarion. Just a little up from Minnehaha falls. Great place for a picnic, highly recommend it.

      • A few years ago I fell in love with the area when we went back a few weeks ago it hadn’t changed a bit. Im pretty sure nobody had gotten off there since, I’d dropped a keychain and it was still on the rock!! It doesn’t cost any extra but you need to book a separate trip to pick you up from the one that dropped you off since they run continuously so you gotta call them to book so they put out the steps for the second trip. GREAT PLACE.

        • YUP. Dal put up some pics a few years back on my first trip they’re somewhere on this sight. I don’t know if the midway pic made it up…it’s just my dad in the pics cause I was the one taking them though. Got some really nice ones this last time but still working on a write up I’m happy with. I swear I’d move there if I could, the whole area took my breath away.

          • The whole solve based on time and ‘looking up’ LITERALLY ‘SOMEWHERE NORTH” (the north pole amusement park is just north and you can see it from the view off the highest Ferris wheel in the world!!) from the other side of time. I went to CO 3 times before I got on the train again. probably cause I secretly liked the ferris wheel ride as much as gold. ha! I am secretly really proud of it, and it’s a real fun solve, so it’s taking awhile to write up since, as you’ve probably noticed, I end up all over the place sometimes quite a big challenge to make simple and elegant to read. Fun stuff though. Excited to share and hope some others find neat stuff in there too 🙂

    • Willie, a few years ago there was a lot of discussion about the giant W in the movie “It’s a mad, mad, mad, world”. Some were very excited about that tangent. I think they found the “W” by turning one of the pictures upside down and flipping it or something to that effect. All of a sudden there were W’s everywhere.

      • Hi Goofy — I’ve been considering the MMMMW connection ever since I noticed all the poem words that start with the letter W. I love that movie, and I’d be very surprised if Forrest hadn’t seen it and been inspired by it. After all, what does a lower case omega look like?

      • TTOTC, page 133. The nugget to the right of the frog, when turned upside down, one can see a “W”. I believe that’s where the discussion started.

  67. So,
    What the heck is the difference between waters & water?
    Is it as simple as waters meaning 2 or more water sources or flows?
    If so, then water is just one source or flow.

    I can see waters also being a name like E.C. but it’s not capped.

    Maybe I’m trying to overthink things…..

    • Jake;

      I do not know, but could it mean that the stream, creek, or river have more than one source? The combined waters of these multiple sources? Just a thought. JDA

      • That would seem logical JD,
        Waters may mean many sources flowing into one.

        If that’s the case with waters, what is the deal with water high?
        Would that mean just one source of water?
        I don’t think so, considering all sources of water comes from multiple sources even when it’s coming out of the ground.

        • Just random free thinking, but the warm waters could also “halt” something else. I know I’ve read about a few Indian battles and other stuff that “halted” with peace talks at the water that divided the land etc. Not to say a peace talk factors in, just that the warm waters don’t necessarily need to “halt” themselves, they could be halt an expedition, a March, an expected way of passage…anything really. If there’s a depth wagons couldn’t pass that clue could even be just a number like 5 feet. Which you then take down a canyon. Sorry, I’m rambling.

          • In Buckish slang I think “waters” is actually a part of a gun. May provide insight to some ‘overlook’ or blaze finding theories too in case that helps anyone.

          • More rambling on “halt” from my side. Fenn said it’s more than 300 miles west of Toledo. That’s Terre Haute, IN. If (a big if) he was giving the > 300 miles as a hint which he later suggested he wasn’t… Maybe “Haute” is a mispronounced homonym of halt. If he’s hinting at this, maybe warm waters haute could be something French, or in my rambling mind, Malagasy, as in “Warm Waters”, Haute Matsiatra. There is such a place.

        • As it happens, in my solve, I am aware of only one source of water for my Warm Waters Halt location, and I am aware of at least two sources for my Water High location. Does that tell me I am in the completely wrong place? I hope not. JDA

    • Jake, water is an interesting word. I looked it up a few years ago. Here’s what I found:

      Water is usually used as a noncount noun, but the form waters is sometimes used. What’s the difference between “the gray water of the Mississippi” and “the gray waters of the Mississippi”?

      Both the noncount water and the plural waters are used to refer to a specific body of water, as in “the water(s) of Lake Michigan.” But there are subtle differences in their use.

      The noncount water is also used generally of any water, whether it is in small quantities (“a glass of water”) or in large quantities (“We went swimming but the water was too cold.”).

      The plural waters, on the other hand, is used especially of an area of seawater, and tends to appear in more formal contexts (“shipping lanes in international waters”) and in literary contexts (“the azure skies and clear waters of the Pacific”).

      If you are not sure which one to use, choose water as it is the more versatile and less formal of the two.

      • Goofy,
        The plural “waters” as sea water could be used in the poem seeing a good part of the Rocky’s were under salt water at one time.
        When mining at Walton mine, I found a crustacean fossil above 7000′ & realized then this mountain was under water at one time if not many.

        I have to discount seawater as WWWH because the area in which this happened is so large & we really don’t know the exact edges.

        I know some will not like this but the area is way to big unless canyon down falls in a different meaning as the straightforward one & there are many, many canyons in this area of seawaters that were once there & we also don’t know how warm or cold those waters were back then which leads me to believe this line in the poem is in relation to a more modern day or the lifetime of Forrest anyway.

        I think WWWH is not a very large area or an idea or understanding in that sense.

        It’s funny how you mention Azure & rings a bell in the book.

        I think we need to look at bodies of water for the beginning & the end where the prize is.

        BTW, email notifications are working perfectly now.

    • Jake,

      In my honest opinion, WWWH may simply be a general area as to where to look and not a specific location. Something that has bolstered this thought is a comment by f on Jenny’s MW site;

      “There are many places in the Rocky Mountains where warm waters halt, and nearly all of them are north of Santa Fe. Look at the big picture, there are no short cuts. f” Here’s the link: http://mysteriouswritings.com/forrest-fenns-where-warm-waters-halt/

      So, when f states that there are many places wwwh, then how do you know which one to pick? I’m not sure that you do – yet. IMO this portion of the poem could simply be narrowing down your search area from “the mountains north of santa fe” to where warm waters halt in the mountains north of santa fe. There are obviously thousands of options here for wwwh so pick your poison – cold water fisheries, hot springs, etc, etc, etc. I personally like the idea of cold water fisheries – there are plug ins that you can find for free that work with GE that depict warm waters vs cold waters. Its actually quite astounding the difference north of santa fe.

      I don’t know if I’m explaining my thoughts very well, but look at it this way (a little brain game if you will):

      I’m located somewhere in the world and you can ask me 9 questions to pinpoint my location.

      Q1: What country are you in?
      A1: USA

      Q2: What state are you in?
      A2: Colorado

      Q3: What City are you in?
      A3: Denver

      Q4: What part of Denver are you in?
      A4: NE

      Q5: What street do you live on?
      A5: XXXX St

      It would take 1000 yrs to pinpoint my location by guessing the final location, but as you narrow down the area it is possible.

      I don’t have the TC and this is obviously only my opinion, but I’m not sure anyone will ever be able to “guess” the correct wwwh or hoB or blaze until they know the answer to question 9 (which they won’t know until they solve question 8, etc).

      Maybe the poem is written: Start at point X and then go to point Y and then point Z…. But when I think of architects / bakers / etc, it seems like its very possible that the poem is written: Clue 1 is this general area, Clue 2 is narrowed down to this / these areas, etc.

      Take it for what you will, these are simply this week’s thoughts from a searcher that has tried to look at this crazy puzzle from multiple angles. I may be way off base, but maybe this will spark someone’s mind and assist in their solve.

      Sam

      • Sam H,
        WWWH may be a general area but I would like to think it is not so general & would be labeled.

        I’m not crazy about cold water fisheries being WWWH. I would like to think it is a more natural area but still with a lot of human & animal traffic.

        Looks like you’re using the bullseye method to round down the clues – literally.
        I am not sure that is contiguous & putting one foot down & stepping on the other to get to the next clue.

        I like the point to point areas where they overlap here & there.
        Sort of like when an architect designs a home or building, there has to be some things you do 1st, like lay the foundation. Please don’t put that drywall up! They didn’t put the electrical wires & plumbing in there yet.

        Trying to look for & find the blaze would be equal to trying to put the roof up 1st.

  68. I have thought about WWWH for so long now I think my mind exploded. BUT, it did occur to me that WWH at the surface. Anyone else consider this as plausible? And, if so, wouldn’t it have to be at the top of an area in order to take it in the canyon down?

    • “AN” area is the key. Let’s say that a stream that starts near the top of a mountain flows down hill, This stream is the Warm Stream – It flows down hill until it meets a river – Let’s call it Big River. Big river also started somewhere – higher up a mountain, and it is flowing down hill (as do all rivers and streams). At the spot where Warm Stream and Big River meet or converge is the wwwh spot. It is NOT at the top of anything, it just happens to be a bit higher than a spot further downstream for Big River, and a spot lower than the spots where Warm Stream and Big River began their journeys.

      So, I do not know that you have fallen onto any great discoveries. Just my opinion Robert. JDA

      • No big discovery, JDA. Just another thing that popped into an overcrowded mind. Anyone looked into Treasure Creek yet?

  69. imo water runs down the canyon – it would seem to me that starting at the bottom one would take it in (follow) the water that is coming down the canyon up to from where the water is coming from

    • Take it in could refer to just looking at the canyon. That’s not how my solve works out, but I had thought of that before I developed my solve. So, you could start at a point where WWH, then from there it’s not far…

      • IMO, If FF actually parked his car at the point of where WWH and started from here. I don’t believe “TAKE IT IN” means to take a raft, boat, horse, or any other means of transportation. Because he said it toke him 2 trips from his car to hide the treasure. I know if I were taking any means of transportation down the canyon I could take the chest and gold with me if I was not necessarily carrying it. I would simply load it on or in what ever I was taking down the canyon.
        Maybe “too far to walk” is an actual location that is not far from WWH.

        So with this thought do you think WWH is where we park and start the chase or is it just a reference on a map. And my be we park at below home of Brown?

  70. Can a newbie make some comments and questions?
    Will you all be gentle with me?

    Didn’t Forrest respond to an email saying there were many (or hundreds?)
    of places in the Rockies where warm waters halt?

    Hasn’t he said to have a child read the poem , meaning it’s not that complicated?

    Hasn’t he said not to over think the poem?

    Hasn’t he said to figure out where to start or to not bother leaving home?

    Hasn’t he suggested to use the following resources: his book (with the poem, natch), a good dictionary (he just Googles a word), Google Earth, and maybe a good map?

    Couldn’t warm waters just be… warm waters? from a “hot” or warm spring?
    People used to “take the waters” at a spa or hot spring. Water / waters, same thing in my opinion.

    They would halt (slow down) at a pool of sorts before running down a creek in a canyon with a road along side that could be driven by a sedan when there is no snow or mud? “Halt” means more than “stop” (dictionary says so, not my opinion).
    If you walk with a halt you’re still moving!

    The water/s will go somewhere, down the creek seems to me, so I don’t see there being a dry creek bed in the solve.

    Couldn’t “wood” just be…a wood? No metaphors or brain strains involved?
    He went IN there. INTO something, into the wood. I always answer the crossword
    clues with “copse”. Wood, copse, small grove of trees…same thing. Not to be confused with “woods” or “forest”.

    If the blaze is a thing that you go into the wood to find or see, isn’t it likely that it
    could simply be a mark or tag on a tree (a classic definition I think). In a grove of
    trees with likely duff and ground cover on the floor, a stone etc type of marker
    would likely not show up in my opinion.

    If this place is as isolated and beautiful as Forrest would have us believe,
    is it likely that a home with someone named “Brown” would be nearby?
    It doesn’t seem likely to me, so “home of Brown” could be artistic license,
    perhaps referring to Brown Bears. Research tells me that all grizzly bears are
    brown bears but that not all brown bears are grizzlies…just sayin’.

    “Water high” ? High water? you got me. There is a creek, it will have water
    (that started out as warm) in it. A creek is shallow…not navigable…no paddle needed. High water mark is at top edge of the bank of any river, creek, or stream.
    You can step over a brook, jump over a creek, wade across a stream and swim across a river, so they say. “Water high” sounds like a lovely description of a waterfall also.

    Be brave, be wise, be not meek
    As the treasure you all seek.

    Watch out for Mother Nature: bears, snakes etc. and even riled Rangers?

    I will put my hard hat on now. Hope everyone has a snug winter.

    • D. Crockett,
      I love it.
      I live it.
      I endorse it.
      Straightforward & transparent!
      Now if we only had that happen at the higher levels.

      He wasn’t playing games when he wrote the poem.
      If I didn’t have to wash in the warm waters & then eat a sandwich & lay down in the canyon now, I think we may have to chat tomorrow.

      Must say, you are a logical thinker.

    • Welcome D Crockette,
      Just a couple things, First wwwh cam be just about everywhere. Forrest never mentioned if that spot stayed warm thru the winter. A stream or creek that is very slow moving will heat up as it flows. The water on the top of a lake is always warmer that it’s lower depth.
      The Blaze, Forrest has said that all of the poem must last 100, 1000, 10,000 years from know. Nothing etched on a tree or anything else made of wood will last that time unless Forrest is in the petrified forest (I don’t think so).
      HoB, well a bear is brown at sometime of there life, but again their den will not last a life time (unless it is in a cave). How could a cave be the hoB?
      Water high sounds like a it could be a water fall, know you really need to put on your thinking cap but there are a few other ways that water high will work.
      Gotta go now but don’t give up we all started just like you are…
      Best of luck to you,
      Timothy…IMHO

    • D.C. – f has specifically stated:

      “I said in my book that the solution will be difficult but not impossible. If it was easy anyone could do it.”

      “When you read the poem, it looks like just simple words there, but I guarantee you, I worked on that thing.”

      You have pointed out a lot of “simple” and “easy” just like so many before you. If you are new and intend to get out into the countryside searching anytime soon, you will quickly get your education in the thrill of the chase.

      • JCM
        Agree.
        D. Crockett thoughts and ideas may change or grow as time goes… we all have been there.
        But I have to ask Timothy where he got the idea that fenn stated~
        ~The Blaze, Forrest has said that all of the poem must last 100, 1000, 10,000 years from know. ~
        While some searchers think this… fenn to my knowledge did specifically say ‘that all of the poem must’ last any length of time.
        One comment was;
        “I’m not flippant about this. It’s not something somebody is going to be able to do on spring break or a Sunday afternoon picnic. I’m looking a hundred years down the road, maybe a thousand years down the road. People don’t understand that.”

        Adding, in one video fenn mentioned 10,000 years down the road… While it’s easy to come to a conclusion that fenn “might” have meant ‘all of the poem’, I think it safe to say that, at times, some in search community thought one thing and it turned out to be something else.

        Although Tim, if you have a direct quote with fenn say this.. I would very much like to see it, if you can post it. I’m sure others would appreciate it as well.

    • Welcome Aboard, D. Crockett!

      “Can a newbie make some comments and questions?
      Will you all be gentle with me?”

      Come on in, the water’s fine.

      “Didn’t Forrest respond to an email saying there were many (or hundreds?) of places in the Rockies where warm waters halt?”

      Yes.

      “Hasn’t he said to have a child read the poem , meaning it’s not that complicated?”

      I would completely ignore the child comment. A child has zero chance of solving Forrest’s poem.

      “Hasn’t he said not to over think the poem?”

      Yes, but he has also said that searchers over-simplify it, so keep that in mind.

      “Hasn’t he said to figure out where to start or to not bother leaving home?”

      He has. But there have been plenty of searchers who thought they had the right starting point, and the vast majority of them were wrong.

      “Hasn’t he suggested to use the following resources: his book (with the poem, natch), a good dictionary (he just Googles a word), Google Earth, and maybe a good map?”

      IMO, the poem is resource #1; a good map (Google Earth or otherwise) is #2; TTOTC is #3. Everything beyond that is fluff.

      “Couldn’t warm waters just be… warm waters? from a “hot” or warm spring? People used to “take the waters” at a spa or hot spring. Water / waters, same thing in my opinion.”

      Over 100,000 people have preceded you, and many if not most have thought that … and failed. So you should take that into consideration.

      “Couldn’t “wood” just be…a wood? No metaphors or brain strains involved? He went IN there. INTO something, into the wood. I always answer the crossword clues with “copse”. Wood, copse, small grove of trees…same thing. Not to be confused with “woods” or “forest”.”

      It could be. My advice: don’t get caught up on clues that are so far “downstream”. You need to figure out where warm waters halt. It is NOT easy. It is very hard. It is why so few people have solved two of the clues.

      “If the blaze is a thing that you go into the wood to find or see, isn’t it likely that it could simply be a mark or tag on a tree (a classic definition I think).”

      No. It is not a mark on a tree. Forrest wanted his challenge to stand the test of time. Given the lack of bristlecone pines in the four states in play, chip-marks on trees are not the answer. The blaze will last centuries or even millennia, IMO.

      As for home of Brown, again you shouldn’t waste your time worrying about it. Without the starting point, you’ll never find it.

      Dal’s blog (home of Dal = HoD) is a fantastic resource that I encourage you to explore. With nearly 160,000 posts, you will find many answers to your questions.

      Question for you: do you have the book? If not, I would certainly suggest picking up a copy at some point. The book is not strictly necessary for solving the clues, but it will prove valuable to you for confirming a correct path.

      • I’d like to comment of this Zap, but my laptop told me it would go on strike if I did….lol

        But if I can chime in one one comment…
        D.C. ~“Hasn’t he said to have a child read the poem , meaning it’s not that complicated?”

        Zap~ I would completely ignore the child comment. A child has zero chance of solving Forrest’s poem.

        @ D.C. I wouldn’t say that is exactly what fenn may have intended; “meaning it’s not complicated” as JCM shown, Fenn told us the poem is difficult. Fenn also gave some examples of what he refers to as “over complicated” and an example of “over simplifying the clues” Each searcher need to review these to come to there own thoughts and conclusion… Which lead me to Zap’s comment with a question: Zap, while I don’t hold some comments from fenn as important as other comments, to “ignore” any comment seem to be a pick and choose what works for my solve… line of thinking.

        What a child, kid, or any other term, to me or you might be, could be completely different from fenn’s view. What is a child?
        A 3 year old who may need some assistance to get to the chest? Little Indy who has no age, but just consider young because of little? I’m 56… a little girl to me can be an 18 year, and an 18 year old girl can be a young woman. Fenn is 86… to him I may be a kid, because he was 30 when I was born.
        I mean, would 86 year old fenn say to his 13 year old self… sorry kid, you don’t have a chance in solving the poem?

      • Seeker: I was merely cautioning Mr. Crockett that of all the things that people claim Forrest has said, this comment about showing the poem to a child should be way, way, way down the list of relevance or importance. People must exercise some level of triage or they will forever be exploring rabbit holes. New blood should at least benefit from the experiences of those that preceded them, and so my advice to Davy (?) was to steer away from the kid comment. It won’t help a tyro, it will only slow him down.

        • I agree with you on your assessment for the most part Zap… it was the “Ignore” part I was really getting at. Especially for someone starting out. I also don’t agree with some of D. Crockett’s assessments either, but we all have been there.

          Example D.C. said “Didn’t Forrest respond to an email saying there were many (or hundreds?) of places in the Rockies where warm waters halt?”

          That to me is an ‘ok’ summary. Yes fenn was responding to an e-mail Q&A, but there is a bit of information left out…. There are many wwwh in the RM’s and nearly all are N. of SF. You ” over simplify ” the clues…

          I didn’t react to D.C leaving out parts… I think there is important information here… but that’s just me. He’ll need to see if there is or not.

          Like JCM said in part to D.C “You have pointed out a lot of “simple” and “easy” just like so many before you.”
          Some times we need to fall before we know it hurts. lol … I have more than one skinned knee… elbows , cracked ribs, twisted wrist….

        • Seeker: you are correct. Ignore was too strong a word. I just didn’t want to see a newcomer get too wrapped around the axle on such remarks. Far better to focus on the poem and identify it’s aberrations.

        • Why should new blood benefit from the experiences of those that preceded them?
          Let them do as the others have done, and who’s to say what the veterans say is even right?

          You and others preach, best to give your opinion and tell stories and not preach the gospel of Fenn. IMO

          • Ritt: I would counter — why post any information here at all if you are concerned that newbies or lurkers will use that information to gain a leg up? And how “new” is new blood? I’ve ~only~ been at it for 16 months; there are plenty here who’ve been working at it for over 5 years and still don’t know WWWH.

          • I would have to agree with Zap on this one. I have been reading this blog for years. It’s a resource not a club.

    • D. Crockett,

      In chorus with Jake, I like the straight forward thought process. Sometimes we can be inundated and overloaded with information.

      I think all of your questions/points are valid ones, as no matter how long you have been in “The Chase” either just starting or looking for years, no one can truly say that they “have it all figured out”, as no one has produced the chest.

      I offer a few thoughts of my own regarding my approach to the search, these are my opinions/observations, I am not intending them to be taken as “facts”. While FF has said many things, some being quality tidbits to assist in narrowing down search areas, the majority of his quips have been “non-clues”. For example; “It is above 5,000 ft. and below 10,200 ft.” this is a decent clue, albeit still very open ended, but a good crumb non-the-less. In comparison to “…the treasure is more than 66,000 links North of Santa Fe..”. This is really a non-clue as it neither assists or narrows down anything.

      I will use your “home of Brown” thought from above as an example of my thought process. Again, mine only, not fact.
      DC: “If this place is as isolated and beautiful as Forrest would have us believe,
      is it likely that a home with someone named “Brown” would be nearby?
      It doesn’t seem likely to me, so “home of Brown” could be artistic license,
      perhaps referring to Brown Bears. Research tells me that all grizzly bears are brown bears but that not all brown bears are grizzlies…just sayin”

      IMO If the poem were referring to the “home of Brown” as a bear or trout or what have you, then it would not be capitalized at the end of a sentence. Granted, FF has used artistic license, but I don’t feel that is the case here. Brown Trout or Brown Bear would only get capitalized if it started a sentence, otherwise it is always lower cased. So for me “home of Brown” has to be a person or place, as it would be the only grammatically correct usage of the word in the sentence. Otherwise it would be so open ended that it could mean anything, Brown Adobe, Brown Squirrel, Brown Hawk, Brown Trout, Brown Bear, Brown Beaver and so on… I continue to believe, again me only, that it would have to be a person or place, thus the reason for capitalizing it at the end of a sentence and that person or place would have to have some relative meaning to FF personally, not just John-Doe Brown whose house is on Canyon Road.

      Anyhow, great creative thinking……best of luck in your quest and thanks for sharing your thoughts.

      The Sleepy Hollow Bard

    • A few thoughts on your comments, D. Crockett..

      Bristlecone pines live greater than 4000 years and occur within the range FF says the treasure is hidden. Native American peoples used different species of tree bark for food, returning to the same tree and same area of the forest year after year to harvest. Those “blazes” are still here today (several hundred year old examples can be seen near The Great Sand Dunes). Many people say the blaze isn’t on a tree, but I wouldn’t rule it out.

      Regarding “have a child read the poem”…my dear friend who is both fascinated with my obsession and is a Professor of Literature /Poetry at a well known university in Colorado is doing just that with her college students next week. The students will be reading The Poem as an assignment in critical thinking and poetic interpretation. The students aren’t children but are young enough to perhaps have an interesting perspective. I will update the blog on her findings, if any are original and haven’t been discussed before (to the best of my uncertain knowledge). I wouldn’t ignore the child comment, nor would I hang my hat on it.

      I like your approach. My only advice is to read TTOTC with a critical eye for what is truth, and what is likely fiction. A memoir is just that..a memory. At times a highly embellished memory full of metaphor and double entendre. And, I would read the Scrapbooks in the same way. Many searchers discount both sources of information, so of course this is all just my opinion.

      Ok, time to pack a sandwich and flashlight. Warm waters call.

          • pdenver,

            I don’t know if there’s a family connection.

            I believe you can appreciate the following comments posted here awhile back! BTW…Elizabeth Fenn is married to Peter Wood whom authored a highly received book based upon a painting by Homer Winslow.

            Small world! :

            A ” Black Eyed Susan” is a popular flowering plant growing in Yellowstone and Colorado, that has the nickname of: Home of Brown”. ( It is also used as a traditional Native American medicinal herb.)

            https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Rudbeckia_hirta.JPG

            SL

            Sheri on March 5, 2016 at 1:20 pm said:

            If your clue about Black eyed Susan is accurate in regard to it being nicknamed “home of Brown” then I may have a very fascinating connection for you. But, right now I’m confused about it. I see on another website that there is a photographer who took an award winning photo of some Black-eyed Susans and he named his photo the “home of Brown” but he states that it was a name he came up with and that that nickname is not associated with the flower. Can you direct me to where something states that the flower really is called “home of Brown” If you can, you are going to love this connection!

            SL on February 18, 2016 at 10:58 am said:

            In addition:

            The Black Eyed Susan is also known as the ” Bulls Eye” and the “Yellow Ox” daisy in English.

            Ellen on February 18, 2016 at 12:01 pm said:

            SL, Ahh…my favorite flower and always something to learn.

            From Winslow Homer’s painting and the poet John Gay’s “Black-Eyed Susan”…there is a both a legend and a love story.

            AND…the “Run for the Black-Eyed Susans” is at Baltimore’s Preakness Stakes with a “horseshoe” arrangement of “Susans” placed around the winning horse’s neck.

            So, this “Home of Brown” has a middle color that is actually dark brown or even dark purple…with bees and butterflies the main pollinators.

            Thanks for the info…didn’t know that Native Americans even used them for snake bites and earaches.

          • Thank you for reposting, SL. I remember when you first began the post a while back, but I just couldn’t remember where. I enjoyed reading the information you provided in regards to Peter Wood and Homer Winslow, too.

        • SL…you are such an amazing resource! I will ask around – I have several friends in academia both CSU and CU. Another medicinal herb is Osha, also known as Bear root. Very commonly used here in the SW, particularly among the Native Americans. It is a very important ingredient in their pharmacopia. Another plant to consider is the Wild Iris, also known as Wild Flag. Also known as fleur-de-lis. Fleur-de-lis grows in fen-like areas….

    • Hi DC, Just a thought on Water High… might be the reparian area along a streams bank which the public can walk on when the stream is on private property. The entry, access, a place to begin. different rules in different states I think… and owners sometimes fence it off.

  71. Forrest’s friend Ken Tankersley from the University of Cincinnati is in the news again-
    You might remember Ken from Scrapbook 104
    http://dalneitzel.com/2014/11/09/scrapbook-one-hundred-four/

    He has been doing work in Chaco Canyon and believes he may have come up with a new theory about how crops were cultivated there…

    We gave away one of Ken’s Books signed by both Ken and Forrest as a prize in one of our contests…maybe two years ago…

    Here’s what he’s up to now…
    https://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2016-10/uoc-sss100316.php

  72. zaphod, I have been reading your posts along with those by Puzzled, and a very select few other posters as well. The first “stanza” has always been my biggest curiosity, due to the specific words chosen, and its syntax. Would you say these lines are to properly “frame” the necessary perspective to understand the actual, physical location? Do you feel that every single word in the first 4 lines is necessary?

    • Imajin: thanks for your interest in my ramblings. The first stanza is the keystone to the rest of the poem. It is oddly worded because it is densely packed with clues which required a lot of architectural planning on Forrest’s part. Not every single word is important in this stanza, but as Forrest has warned it is risky to discount any of them, and disastrous to alter any of them. For my solution, a “word that is key” is concealed in this stanza — can’t say for sure if it is ~the~ word that Forrest has eluded to, but without it one has little hope of choosing the correct WWWH. There are other important clues besides this word, but they don’t come into play until later. Of course, all of this is conjecture on my part since I don’t have a 42-lb box to show you, but I am confident I have solved nearly all of the clues.

    • Good Luck to you 1idwillhe.

      Have wondered about your avatar. is the ID for Idaho?
      and Will He? that is 1 (one) good question. JDA

      • I believe that might be best read as ‘One-Eyed Willie’ there JDA…His/her avatar?…

  73. look quickly down your quest to cease – but terry scant with marvel gaze just take the chest and go in peace -to me means that where ever I have to go in there its not a deep place for me to go in there and terry scant with marvel gaze and look for the spot where the chest is find it and take the chest and go in peace imo

      • i agree frank,
        i think it is on a ledge, just below where a water fall goes over the edge.
        also its no place for the meek. IMO

        • thanks for the reply Richard- by the way my nick name that I grew up with was Richard and until I moved back to nm the company I worked for – for 28 years started calling me by my real name – frank cheers

          • i am in australia, so i cant search myself.
            but i enjoy trying to solve the clues.
            maybe one day i will get to go,where i think the treasure is hidden

  74. I’m sure the erroneous postmark stamps have been covered ad nauseum here once upon a time, but I haven’t seen any recent traffic on them so I thought I’d summarize my observations. There are 20 stamps in all, of which 12 (or 13) are fully legible. Here are their page numbers, dates, and where legible the corrected day of the week:

    p. 16 Monday, 16 September 1936 – correct day: Wednesday
    p. 22 Sunday, 2 September 1943 – correct day: Thursday
    p. 28 Thursday, 25 August 1937 – correct day: Wednesday
    p. 34 Saturday, 10 July 1893(?) – (if year is right, correct day would be Monday)
    p. 36 Wednesday, 15 April 1938 – correct day: Friday
    p. 42 Friday, 18 October 19??
    p. 44 Monday, 3 June 1930s (the only Monday for June 3rd in the 30s was 1935)
    p. 46 Wednesday, 13 July ????
    p. 51 Friday, 5 June ????
    p. 54 Sunday, 23 May 1940s (1943 and 1948 were Sundays)
    p. 58 Sunday, 20 September 1946 – correct day: Friday
    p. 64 Saturday, 8 August 1947 – correct day: Friday
    p. 68 Sunday, 7 September 1949 – correct day: Wednesday
    p. 72 Saturday, 27 December ????
    p. 108 Tuesday, 28 April 1974 – correct day: Sunday
    p. 114 Saturday, 10 October 1983 – correct day: Monday
    p. 118 Thursday, 7 November 1930 – correct day: Friday
    p. 120 Sunday, 23 July 1942 – correct day: Thursday
    p. 126 Friday, 5 June ????
    p. 140 Sunday, 15 August 2005 – correct day: Monday

    If you assume the year is not legible on page 34, then 12 out of 12 stamps have the wrong day of the week (odds of happening randomly: 15.7%). If the 1893 year is correct, then 13 out of 13 are wrong (odds: 13.5%). So the probability is not so low that it couldn’t have happened by chance, but it’s ~probably~ deliberate.

    Some other things to note: every erroneous day of the week appears at least twice
    except Tuesday — the only Tuesday stamp is on page 108. For the 13 correct days of the week (assuming 1893 is right), there are no Tuesdays and no Saturdays.

    But there is a big anomaly that stands out: can you spot it?

      • That’s the only stamp that appears twice. And it’s on page 126 .
        And yes I see the hints.
        Good work

      • Well done, JW. Having only one stamp on an odd-numbered page could have just been happenstance (though about a one in a half million chance of this happening randomly). But having that one stamp be the only duplicated stamp is clearly beyond random chance. Given that its duplicate is on a page where the poststamp is almost invisible *and* it’s a picture of the treasure chest should raise a few eyebrows.

        • Black Friday 😉 Sure are some heavy loads there. Lotsa cold hard cash too. Maybe he keeps it in the bell/purse he made. Hi/lo? anyone play Omaha? If ones a Black chip may be some high stakes in the pot…maybe even the whole purse! On

  75. F seems to write a lot about things that are funny, yet secreted his treasure in the Mountains, but Mountains are not funny….they are hill areas. What gives?

    • Maybe he started this whole thing when he had cancer or something like that so he wasn’t in a real “funny” mood at the time, just a thought…

    • Good one! I understand that you’ve been waiting a long time to tell that joke for Mr. Fenn. Does that make you his tarry gal? (OK, not as good as as yours. I tried.)

  76. I thank you all for your responses.
    I think Forrest said something along the lines of when the solve is known
    people will ask themselves why they didn’t think of that? My take then,
    is that the solution will be rather logical and straight forward, vs abstract
    and esoteric.

    Anyway, lest anyone worry that I intend to go off with Willy or Nilly into
    the wilderness, don’t. They are some serious trouble makers.
    Besides, I have been to the counting house and there are
    bullions and bullions in there already and I can’t possibly fit in another
    half cubic foot of the yellow stuff.

    Also, I cannot possibly read 160,000 posts that have accrued over time
    so I would always be behind.

    I do wonder why the people who have been 200′ and 500′ from the treasure
    don’t just go back and search a little wider and harder? Oh, ha, ha, I
    get it. They don’t know who they are or where they were! Bummer.

    If Dal gets the treasure I wonder if he will even “break even” on an
    hourly basis for all the time it must take and must have taken to put
    this sight (sic) together? It’s pretty cool.

    Best to all
    D C

    ps.
    Wyoming state wildlife action plan 2010 page III – 9 – 4 figure 9
    shows a map of the sagebrush areas of Wyoming. It might be of interest
    to Wyoming searchers…a few conspicuous bare areas on the map…
    probably you’ve all checked it out already.

    • Hey D.C. you said; “people will ask themselves why they didn’t think of that? My take then, is that the solution will be rather logical and straight forward, vs abstract and esoteric.”

      Sure, it seems a logical assumption and many will agree with you. The thing is, fenn as made statements such as, need to know where to start… need to start at the beginning. These comments seem straight down the pike as well, right? So “begin” in the poem is a must place that we are to start… still logical in thought. The many postings have been show that most do just that, and right from the very start of the chase… so why would fenn keep repeating the know where to start, and start at the beginning, if the majority is already starting at “begin”?

      So I ask this, if all were are to do is begin it where wwwh then the only thing we really need to do is find that one and only place out all the hundreds if not thousands of possibilities. Is this why the poem is difficult? The reason being, we have way to many possibilities to try? That was/is actually the thought for a long time… just find wwwh and we’re golden. But many have been in the correct location, many have told fenn what they did and how they proceeded and fenn knows they had the first two clues deciphered. So logically someone should have followed the clues logically, straightforwards, literally, and finalized the poem.

      So now the excuse is, they missed clue 3, or clue 3 is harder than clue 1 etc. Sure seems logical, right? but as of recent fenn has stated some have the first 4 clues correct… so logically, they should have been able to finish the clue straightforwards and locate the chest. Fenn has stated [ is so many words ] he feels the folks who deciphered the first clues correctly, was at the correct location, apparently all the clues, and the chest because, as he said the walked pass the remaining clues and the chest, didn’t know they had the clues correct or even possibly the correct area because of their actions and process didn’t locate and retrieve the chest.

      How can straightforwards be so simple/literal to understand that a canyon is a canyon, wwwh is the first clue because of the literal meaning of “begin”, and if 4 clues in consecutive order from there is, what the majority of searcher think – wwwh as the first clues, canyon down, and NFBTFTW and HOB… as 3 and 4, because that is a logical assumption… there has been no recovery of the chest? Yep fenn has said we need an analytical mind, use logic,etc. but what is missing here that I can see is the imagination left on the back burner, and imagination is abstract thinking. In fact ~ fenn tells us to read the book and look for abstract things and aberrations that live out on the edge, as well as, the poem will be solved mostly by imagination…

      I don’t know what is or is not the correct way to proceed in reading the poem correctly… but I do see what doesn’t seem to be working. Even when folks have told fenn or he knows they have as many as 4 correct clues… but they don’t seem to know.
      Where is the difficult part fenn warns us about, the certain of the path beforehand part fenn talked about, the first clue nailed down or stay home part he stated…

      Can you explain to me how straightforwards, literal, word simply meanings, not complicate or simplifying clues does that? And still no recovery of the chest, with almost half the clues deciphered, and many who have been at the correct location?

      I guess we could just say clue five must be a real doozy and most problematic like we thought with clue 3.

      • Seeker;

        You say, “How can straightforwards be so simple/literal to understand that a canyon is a canyon, wwwh is the first clue because of the literal meaning of “begin”, and if 4 clues in consecutive order from there is, what the majority of searcher think – wwwh as the first clues, canyon down, and NFBTFTW and HOB… as 3 and 4, because that is a logical assumption…”

        To me, wrong assumption = wrong outcome.

        Begin it…etc = the place where you begin your quest, but is NOT the first clue. Stanza #1 = the first clue. lines 1,2 and 3 of stanza #2 = clue #2.

        Put in below the hoB = clue #3

        Clue #4 = all of stanza #3.

        1 sentence = 1 clue – straightforward. To me it is because people are thinking the way that you outlined that people have walked right past it.

        Clue #5 = stanza #4 – YES, it is a doozy, but doable.

        Just my opinion. JDA

      • Seeker: I’ve seen you make this comment about 4 clues being solved at least a couple times:

        “So now the excuse is, they missed clue 3, or clue 3 is harder than clue 1 etc. Sure seems logical, right? but as of recent fenn has stated some have the first 4 clues correct… ”

        Fenn did NOT say this. He said, “Some may have solved the first four clues, but I am not certain.” Emphasis on “may”. It sounds like the information provided to him by said searcher(s) was insufficient for him to gauge whether they had solved the first four clues. Perhaps the best he could do was infer that they had solved four based on where they said they were searching.

        Another possibility: what if some searchers managed to solve a later clue (e.g. clue 5) without solving the third of fourth clue? If they mentioned the correct solution to a clue beyond the 4th, but didn’t explicitly provide the answer to clue 3 or 4, the best Fenn could say was that they ~may~ have solved the first four. His statement does not preclude searchers having solved clues beyond the fourth.

        • Zap,
          Yes, insufficient evidence might be so. This [four clues discussion ] is treading waters at this point in time, not unlike the first of the first two clues comments. This thus far, is the only comment we have on the first four clues…
          However, it is interesting that fenn mentioned it at all or even word it the way he did.
          And I never said fenn said, what I posted and I made it clear with [ in so many word ]. As you know there is more than one comment present in my post and like the other comments I talked about in the post… there are no quotes ” ” as it was meant in general conversation. A combinations [ highlights if you will ] of fenn’s comment in a discussion.

          Your first example about fenn not able to gauge the information is good and plausible.
          On your second example I have to think is someone got the 5 clue and maybe not got the third and fourth… why would fenn even mention the clues as “first 4 clues”? Someone somewhere say something.

          I’ll add another possibility; these [ clues 3 and 4 ] may not have been face to face or direct e-mails with a lot of information, like the first two clues… but fenn may have read a few postings and seen that 3 and 4 were mentioned but he is uncertain by the lack of information in those postings on a blog.
          But somewhere, the first 4 clues caught his attention.

          Anyways, the point to my comment to D.C. was the question I presented… with what we have been told and we do know searcher [ a few, several, many, some got there by aberrations, and more arriving ~ fenn’s words in many comments ] ~ how straightforwards / literal in word use, easy to understand, etc. can it be if they went pass all the other clues and the chest?

          Some here like to look for the not so obvious, some like to stick with straightforwards to mean whatever they think it means…
          so in the pass I asked everyone to respond to my not so obvious thought and ideas… if another post is telling us the poem is straightforward, I’m going to ask how? Give something more to a posting then just saying ~ it’s obvious what the first clue is or fenn tells us it’s begin or begin mean the first stanza etc. I don’t care what a person opinion is or what method ones uses… just back up it with something that explains how they came to the conclusion. That is all I’m asking. The three little letter IMO don’t explain notta.

          • It will seem straight forward AFTER the solve is known. Obviously it is not straight forward now. Hindsight is always clearer than foresight yes?

            D. C.

      • Seeker, my take would be your heading in the wrong direction of the clues when your thinking clue 5 is a doozy…if you’re trying to answer why the poem isn’t straight forward or why did the few not pick up on the rest of the clues after they had the first few clues correct.

        Maybe the reason why no more apparent progress is twofold. One, the latter half of the clues out there don’t stand out in the landscape as some would think, especially the blaze.

        More importantly, a possible part of the whole puzzle is hinged to the correct starting point which many allude to by trying to solve for the proper wwwh. But, one finds this important piece of info before the first clue of wwwh. The first stanza is where the puzzle hinges and there’s only one possible solution to the first stanza. If cracked, it sets up the only wwwh, canyon and so on along the path.

        FF never said there’s not a hint in the poem. A hint in stanza one would not be considered a clue. A clue gets you closer to the tc, as defined by FF. If a critical piece of info from the first stanza pinpoints you to a spot further away from where we are to begin the clues in the poem (wwwh) then it’s not a clue, it’s a hint but nevertheless is vital. Possibly that is why FF wrote the word hint in the first stanza as others have noticed.

        Lastly, I believe the few hints in TTOTC will line up with this first stanza hint theory and that is how one will know one is on the correct path. Straightforward…

  77. “Do we suppose that all she knows is that
    a rose is a rose is a rose is a rose.” G. Stein

    “Do we surmise that in his eyes
    a wood is a wood is a wood is a wood.” D. Crockett

    (I just made that up)

    I believe that SOMETHING in the poem has to be taken literally;
    that not everything can be a metaphor for something else.

    I choose to believe that a wood is a wood, not the pages of a book
    which are made of paper which comes from wood which comes
    from trees that blow in the breeze and their pollen does make
    me sneeze and warm water then runs down my cheek and turns
    into a raging creek with waters high… I have to stop now.

    segueway :
    I have become intrigued with the plight of the people of
    Saint Helena Island, a volcanic rock in the middle of nowhere.
    Their “owner” (England) built them a spiffy 1/4 billion pound
    airport that opened and closed with much fanfare ’cause the
    runway is oriented wrong and wind shear is too great.
    I read their weekly newspaper now online every Monday.
    I liked this story:
    http://www.sams.sh/sentinel/Sentinel_160630.pdf
    It’s about the Brownies and their wood.

    I think a wood is a wood and a creek is a creek and
    that, dare I say it, waters is water, and just maybe a canyon
    is a canyon. Surely something has to be at face value???

    I also believe that a road that can be traveled by a sedan in
    good weather is quite a step up from a 4wd Jeep trail and that
    it is maintained to a higher standard than a Jeep trail because
    more people use it because there must be some attraction
    up the road for people in all types of vehicles to go to, like
    maybe a hot or warm spring or maybe a McDonalds or a
    Walmart or who knows. Just being silly there, stop throwing
    stuff.

    Everyone believe what you choose to believe, it makes the
    world go ’round.

    D.C.

  78. Seeker, and others,
    Based on several of the clues that we (self and kids) believe that we have found, we suggest that each clue has both a “straight forward” meaning and a figurative meaning. If this is correct, it could easily be difficult for a searcher who has found the first two clues to find clues 3 and 4; or it could also be difficult for another searcher who has found the first four clues to easily identify clue 5.
    In fact, searchers who find clue 6 might suddenly realize that what they thought was clue 5 is not correct, and that they have to “adjust” the marks on their map, or their solution will not “precisely” take them to TC.
    Does this come close to answering your question?
    Geoff
    “Have flashlight, will travel”

    • Flashlight, I have seen a few people say this, why? I’m 70 yo and have gone
      Where I said ,fen wouldn’t go this far, at the age he did this, same with darkness, didn’t he say ,there is no danger looking for this treasure?

    • Geoff,
      I refer to the Q&A about reverse engineering… if you know hoB why would you care about wwwh…

      Is the adjusting fenn talks about having let’s say clue 6 correct but needing to go back to clue 4 if not correct? … it could be.

      I wonder if adjusting means thinking about how we see clues in the poem itself.

  79. I just watched a great movie for about the fourth time. The Imitation Game. Please watch it if you have the chance. It is about the person/team of people who cracked the German coding machine called Enigma in World War II. I think it is appropriate for all the code breakers/puzzle workers on this site. There is also a quote in the movie that reminds me of Forrest Fenn – “Sometimes it is the people no one can imagine anything of who do the things no one can imagine.” I think the quote will be appropriate for the person who finds the chest as well. I just wanted to share it. Have a great day everybody!

  80. What searchers do not understand is that we are playing chess with Fenn and we have him in check. There is only one move we have to make to win the game, and we’ll checkmate him. Does anybody see that? RC.

    • HA! That’s hilarious RC, I’m sure he will be rolling on the floor laughing if he reads this.

      Remain calm and back away from the keyboard, everything will be OK. This has happened many times over the years to some searchers; it’s called delusions of grandeur.

  81. Going back to the stamps comment. Has anyone found the GPS coordinates located within? I said I would share more as time goes on. For a puzzle to work there must be ways to confirm your solve. Picking any warm water won’t work. Also does anyone really think Forrest would go to all this work to leave anything to chance. If he hid it on BLM land it leaves everyone’s hard work in governments hands. They can keep it if they wanted. Why would he take that chance? The real solve is hidden in time and dates which I have yet to figure out . There is more to this hunt then most have looked at. A treasure old and new.

      • I agree it is not located at that spot but find the coordinates and you will see things in a new light. It is just one step in many. I feel it is more important for us to work on dates and times hidden in the poem which may shed light on final solution.

    • Hi Jasper — since I started the thread, yes I found the (partial) coordinates. They are of no use to anyone that hasn’t already figured out the clue from the poem, but it provides nice confirmation that that part of your solution is correct.

      To Jake’s comment, I would agree that the post stamps will not help you solve the poem. That’s not how Forrest is using the book hints. You have to figure it out first from the poem, and *then* the book is immensely helpful in giving you confidence.

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