Odds n Ends About Fenn’s Treasure Hunt…Part Twenty

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Thanks…

 

dal…

724 thoughts on “Odds n Ends About Fenn’s Treasure Hunt…Part Twenty

      • ‘You ask too many questions.’ Looks like both Cynthia and Mr. Fenn had a good time with this interview. Thank you for reposting it, Dal.

          • Yes, one of the great rewards of the Thrill of the Chase are the friends we’ve made. We are now friends with Thomas and his family and Frank and his wife.

          • Cynthia, I am concerned about a missed bit of editing. It seems that Mr. Thomas actually found a “picker” at about 12:30 and put it in his pocket. We would not want him to be accused of anything -or- worse, be turn into an “internet sensation”, because I am sure that he is a fine young man with a bright future.

  1. Excellent: a fresh slate with Odds -n- Ends #20: same as the number of postmark stamps in TTOTC. (smiles)

  2. I am copying this comment from Jeff Burch to here so it will be more noticeable. Jeff was an active searcher, blogger and one of the first folks to head out and search for Randy when he went missing. Last winter Jeff suffered a stroke which has seriously debilitated him. He is still recovering.
    Many of us met Jeff and his dog Titan at Forrest’s Leon Gaspard book signing a year ago.
    The following comment was originally left just a few minutes ago and left here:
    http://dalneitzel.com/2016/07/20/human-remains-found/#comment-159780

    ————————–
    FROM Jeff Burch and Titan
    In reply to Lou Lee Belle.
    as alsolooking for randy and enjoying the chase ijeffburch had a stroke and i can say this quest saved my life some of my brain died but my thinking before the stroke saved me i truly believe this helped my brain thank you Forrest fFenn and searchers sorry for the loss of a brother treasure hunter be safe out there alwaysjeffburch and titan

  3. Glad to hear you are doing better. Hubby had congestive heart failure was in the hospital in early aug but our trip was plan first week oct. They got the fluids off heart did some testing decided to do heart sonogram saw blockages. When in for stents then they decided he needed triple bi-pass. He is doing great but our trip was toast for this yr. We will pray for you to continue to recover sir. We like you feel this HELPED our marriage, made us stronger, & broker lol

    • thank you and a blessed recovery to your hubby healing will comestay safe out there

    • Here is hoping for a speedy recovery for your hubby. You have a great outlook on life. Yea for you and hubby. JDA

  4. Jeff and Titan,

    You continue to be included in my prayers. Stay on the road to recovery and know that you’ll never be alone. You’re going to do well!

    So happy to hear from you, and looking forward to updates. A special hug to your pal, Titan.

    SL

  5. Jeff keep writing and thinking even if it is a challenge now, it will get easier. My husband had a brain bleed from a severe injury, brain was 3/4 in off midline, surgery, drains, several months recovery. His SASS shooting brought back his coordination. It took awhile before he was safe on the firing line. Now except for the huge scar on his head, no one would know what he had gone through. Keep working towards perfection! Don’t ever give up. When you are ready to search, let me know. I’ll go with you.

  6. Just a little note to check in and tell you of our adventure. The road was closed, ugh, so that left us hoofing it again, but not nearly as far.
    As for the treasure…it’s still waiting. We didn’t get to spend as much time as we wanted, but our effort was certainly worth the cold and our searching buddy loved her adventure. I did get my orange hiking pole back. : ) On the way out from the middle of nowhere we chased the most beautiful sunset I have seen in my entire life. Looks like another road trip with our friends next year is in order.

    • Thank you for sharing your adventure with us, Kedar’s Mom. Sounds like you had a wonderful time. Glad you got your hiking pole back. 🙂

    • Sorry you ran short of time again. DARN! – Glad you and hubby are safe. Use the winter wisely, and be ready to try again in the spring. JDA

  7. i read there was a early draft of the poem. saying look quickly down beyond the stones, take the chest but leave my bones..
    does any one , know the full version of the early draft of the poem ?

    • I Try to keep up on every word that Mr. Fenn says about the chase, but i never seen or heard ,, look quickly down beyond the stones…,, He did comment in the bookstore interview that there was an previous version of the poem that said, ,,Take the chest but leave my bones and go in peace,,

  8. Jeff ,

    Through your stregnth and determination you are an inspiration to many who are fighting their own struggles. Thank you for your caring heart and thank you for being “you”….
    My prayers are still with you my friend…
    Until next time… see ya …..

    Focused

    • Jeff B. , I have heard hyperbaric oxygen therapy works wonders for stoke recovery. They use it as standard treatment in Europe. I know there are centers here in the UNITED STATES . Praying for you

      • Jeff, (Loved ones),

        ARNOLD, IMO……has offered some helpful insight into a therapeutic procedure that, IMHO, warrants some attention.

        A bit more info may be helpful:

        hyperbaric oxygen therapy in usa

        If you should wish to learn more about the subject, please do not hesitate to speak with your professional providers. (Where there’s a will…….a way can be found!)

        Time is on your side.

        SL

  9. Since becoming involved in the Chase, I have noticed a lot more people sending me emails where they sign their comment with a single initial. Friends, co-workers, spammers, etc. I don’t know if this was always the case and I just wasn’t paying attention, or if it’s a recent trendy thing to do. It’s a little annoying when the person’s name starts with an “F”, because I find that I actually read their emails and take it seriously, whether I should or not. Frank, in Accounting, has a recipe for a three-bean casserole that I know is probably not that great. I feel compelled to give it a try anyway. j

    • Slow Cooker or Crock Pot? (I love his 3BS salad, but never tried the warm casserole) He use those noisy onion straws on top?

  10. How in the world could there be another Odds n Ends page so soon?

    “Some searchers overrate the complexity of the search. Knowing about head pressures, foot pounds, acre feet, bible verses, Latin, cubic inches, icons, fonts, charts, graphs, formulas, curved lines, magnetic variation, codes, depth meters, riddles, DRONES or ciphers, will not assist anyone to the treasure location, although those things have been offered as positive solutions. Excellent research materials are TTOTC, Google Earth, and/or a good map.” f

    So why is it that a drone will not assist you?

    What is a drone capable of? It has a camera & get into tight spaces between trees & branches but it cannot go underground or go underwater.

    I would have to say the treasure is either buried under or behind but more importantly, you will not be able to see the chest, but only the blaze & that’s why you have to look quickly down.

    • I wood have to agree, I also say that that is the compelling end to a longggg journey!!!
      Timothy…IMHO

    • Mindy, was it you that some weeks ago mentioned the coin pic being photoshopped? Revisit your observations; IMO it underscores the paragraph above it.

        • No, I don’t see that… there may be others, maybe a slim few that might really be hints and not humor or herrings or cutthroats. I think this is an important one.
          Location, location, location.

          • Hey OS2,
            I’ve looked at both very very closely and the one in S/B 158 is laid on a deck. Similar to home or porch deck and the one in the TTOTC is laid down on a wooden work bench. Like what Forrest has at his work shop.
            What did I miss???
            Timothy…IMHO

          • That is another item I have looked into.

            I’m wondering if the bench is from a place he stayed at, took the picture for posterity, and then hid the chest.

          • Hi Tim, I don’t think we’re looking at the same things. Recently I’ve come to believe that the two paragraphs bracketing the poem are setting it up for the reader, and the photoshopped pile of coins is right there. You need to understand what the the pile of coins pic is saying. I did post something recently on a dormant thread that will help explain it more. But like ff, i don’t care if or when it’s found. Caring is antagonistic to freedom.

            I think the poem is written to tell several tales, one of them being about a special fishing hole. I look at word roots, colloquialisms, funny connections, etc. which I think reveal a lot about the poems architectural foundation.

            What do you think of this linkage: Capt. Kidd > pirate > cutthroat > trout? It came to me when I saw Target had a halloween costume called ‘Cutthroat Pirate’. Previously, I had a pirate reference that had to do with warm waters. It still works for the map trail.

            Study those paragraphs, ask things like, why the heck is that George Burns’ quote there? what can it possibly mean?

            After 5 years of thinking about this game, this hand has pretty good cards. I avoided using the words ‘deck’… but I will consider your ‘bench’ observations keenly. Sometimes I am so deep in my head I don’t see what is in front of me. Thanks. OS2

          • Hey Timothy, I was really addressing your post which brought my attention to some background I had missed. Thank you. I meant to say ‘Tims’ (plural), but again, that eyes-open-lids-shut bugger was using my mouth — which is really my index finger on this iPad. If the Supremes can declare ‘money is speech’ can I declare ‘my finger is my mouth’ or my speech?

            Sorry if I slighted you.

          • None taken….if you are talking to me….we all have opinions that are heard that we may or may not agree with.

            We are all just speculating on this cyptic puzzle, I learned a long time ago, if I were ever to get involved with a treasure hunt….remember Tim….you aren’t the only one out there seeking..and…put on your thick skin, because every opinion is valid until the treasure is found!

            :o)

            An opening will solve this puzzle. Like someone recently said….”indecision is the key”….

            Huh? Did I just say that?

            :o)

            Good luck OS2!

  11. Every other day I have to reply or resubscribe. Anyone else have this problem? I like to stay current on posts but for some reason it just shuts down after a couple of days…

  12. Since the search season is getting pretty narrow, I’ve wondered if anyone has changed or switched the state they are looking in. Zap compiled some good numbers this last summer. My guess is that most searchers are still searching the same state that they had chosen then. I have not switched states but have switched my focus to an area that is Not Far, But Too Far To Walk from where I had been searching. I seem to remember that f got switched. Has anyone else switched the state they are searching?

    • Hear me,
      I would think searchers may change states during the winter.
      The weather & temps have been unpredictable at times but for the most part, is not too bad up north & down south, but you never know when Mother Nature decides too let you know who is boss.

      I would hope those searching SW Montana continue to do so until it is found there at the blaze.

      • You think it’s at the blaze? Look quickly down… Down the cliff, trail, feet? I wouldn’t think it would be at the blaze…

        • Yes Heidini,
          I think the blaze & the treasure are within 20′ or so of each other.
          I have done a lot of research & thought the blaze may be the sun shining on a certain area at a specific time & moved on from that.

          I have thought the blaze was a trail, but that doesn’t seem to work seeing the trail extends a bit & at what part of the trail do you look quickly down.

          Thought the blaze was on a tree & know a tree won’t last.

          I think the blaze is completely natural whether a permanent rock formation, a scar on a rock, a waterfall, the surface of a pool of water, too many to list but it must stand the test of time & be natural seeing the man loved nature so much.

          • My 1st choice this year was a waterfall for the blaze, but after thinking about water high & the blaze, I don’t think he would have them both the same thing.

            To me the water high is a waterfall & the blaze is the surface of of the pool of water where you have to look quickly down.

            The surface of the pool of water is much like a mirror where you see the sky or the sun reflecting off of it. Now that’s a blaze.

            We both think somewhat alike & we both like our areas but have yet to search them thoroughly & when we walk away without the chest, we then hold onto our area & tweak our solve a little to see the next time, until we walk away for good at that spot.

            I look at this as eliminating a spot & not necessarily looking for the treasure.
            That’s what I tell myself anyway.

          • That has also been my team’s as well.

            We took it a step forward though and included a “rainbow” with the falls.

            Good luck!

          • Yes Tim,
            What are all the ways for nature to create a rainbow?
            There’s not many & a waterfall is one of them.

            We could wait for it to rain when the sun is out at our area, & be in the right position, but doesn’t seem logical.

            Funny how Forrest said we are paying too much attention to the blaze & here we go again.

          • I’ve no longer think of the blaze, because when I find it, it will lead me to the chest. I’m with FF on that one.

            So I think I know what the blaze is, I’ve posted some theories out here in Dal’s world, and still have other ideas not discliaef. But I also believe the poem is multi-layered.

            Layered in ways that one must be “wise” (expert?/advanced?/or some other level of knowledge) in trails/wilderness, alertness, fun, and probably a bit of luck thrown in.

            If you have these components, you can then see the different expressions the words the poem reveals.

            “Ask a child what warm waters are to them”…and you will then see an opening to fun, imagination and adventure. The alertness and knowledge of the wilderness will have to come with experience (“getting off the couch and electronics thingies”…you get the drift.

            Those are clues in themselves.

            Bill Murray said it wonderfully n Caddtshack…

            ” Be the ball.”

            Grasp the meaning….keep it simple….enjoy!

            In truth…I think that is why Dam has searched long and hard with nothing but stories. Granted..great stories no doubt…but not the “best” story yet, huh?

            He may not have taken this approach….Being Forrest Fenn…..

            That is how you will find the treasure…simple enough, huh?

            Nope. Difficult not impossible….means solvable.

            Good luck!

          • @Tim (ZosoRocks) – I’ve asked children their opinions on warm waters. They always tell me “bath” or “pool”.

            Ojo is a word that also means this, among other things like “spring” and “eye”.

          • Tim,
            I don’t think any special knowledge is needed. An expert or advanced type of knowledge, I think was ruled out by Forrest. An average person should be able to find the treasure.

            I think we are overthinking things way too much.
            I know, there’s lots of you here that have tried the straightforward approach & have failed & that’s why some have morphed into thinking this way.

            Yes, keep it simple.
            “Be Forrest”

          • Or the turbid water at a fall’s base that one needs to wait for a “window” in order to see down. Look quickly..just a thought.

          • As long as the waters are not too turbid during spring runoff which can be a torrent & the chest would wash away down stream, I think it will be safe in a deep pool created over thousands of years where the torrent will not affect it that much until thousands of years down the road.

            My solve involves water at some point & near or in the end point.

        • From Weekly Words May 2016
          Mr. Fenn: How far is the chest located from the blaze? ~ casey

          Casey, I did not take the measurement, but logic tells me that if you don’t know where the blaze is it really doesn’t matter. If you can find the blaze though, the answer to your question will be obvious. Does that help?f

          Hope this helps.

        • OH NO. You’re kidding right? You mean I dug up the back yard of that old woman’s house in Portland for nothing? Geez—-now you tell me.

          • I was just in Portland a few weeks ago. There are no old women there! But they DO keep it weird.

        • Guys, I just received a distressing Email from an old lady in Oregon, whose back-yard mysteriously resembles a war-zone.

          now, I’m definitely not the kinda of guy that would expose a fellow treasure hunteJOE SPARROW DID IT!!!

    • Hey Jake,
      Failure is not measured by how many times you fall down, Failure is measured by the one time that you don’t get back up and try again…
      Timothy…

    • Hi Tim

      I totally agree with your statement that Jake has failed to measure up in his constant ‘falling down-ness’, on many numerous failed occasions.

      at least we can find profound confidence in the fact that he’ll never be able to count them all, on his twelve fingers & toes (combined) ..in the near distant future.
      🙂

    • Thank you for the reminder, 23kachinas. The link may be helpful this time because it’s a little cool in Denver right now and it’s only 9 o’clock. This morning we had our first (?) freeze; temps were in the low-to-mid 20’s.

      • During this show Tricia Ennis covered the Mythology of Orion. Viewing online a nice alternative to cold weather and/or cloudy skies.

  13. Y’ever look up the word “grave” on google definitions? More connections than I would have imagined.

    Don’t dig up someone’s grave. It’s not in a graveyard.

    • Then where would someone’s grave be, if not in a graveyard? An undertaker one comforted me when I thought I saw stuff moving in a funeral parlor. He said “here you go kid” and handed me a bottle of Vicks44. He said “this lights stop that coffin”.

      • @Joe Sparrow –

        grave (2) – serious, heavy, evolving from the Latin root gravis.

        grave (3) – engrave, like the blaze was graven on the stone.

        grave (4) – clean (like a ship’s bottom) by burning and then tarring. Some people interpret “tarry scant” a different way than “don’t dillydally”.

        Fenn has lots of grave and graveyard references in his book. So many that he had to release a new “clue” that it wasn’t in a graveyard because his undertones were inspiring people to want to dig up graves. I just found it provocative.

      • Joe Sparrow…I have found many graves that were not in graveyards in my travels thru out the west. The discovery is always sobering. Think about the Camino Real, The Spanish Trail, the Oregon Trail to name a few. Burials followed and adjoined the trails, and there were many. Some of the burials I have found are truly ancient, some more recent. Sometimes it is a grave marker or headstone seemingly in the middle of nowhere. I found an arbor glyph a few years ago inscribed “Joe F. died here”. With the date…I think it was 1937. Old sheepherding trail. I have a friend that dowses for old grave sites (he is a historian). So many have gone before us…

        • As you stated above…concerning “sheep herding trails”…..you do realize, that you have now just add another time of trail that is not really a “human made trail”.

          It clearly reminds me of my trek to MT and into the “wood”/wilderness, and when I was approached by a meandering herd of COWs!! Ferocious as they where, I stood my ground and showed courage and they went about their way….lucky for me, huh?

          :o)
          Anyhow…my point being was that this alternate “trail”, truly reflects simplicity, being wise enough to figure it out, and a possible for within the poem and how to get to the end.

          Interesting. Thanks for posting.

    • E.C. Waters – I did not get a chance to respond to your reply to a comment I made some time ago about you being from KS. I will now.

      I’m from KS as well and as I’ve read your past posts. I’ve seen that you have imagination. Enough imagination for all the state of KS. In my opinion the correct solve takes imagination but not near as much as you’ve thrown in. If you can dial it back a bit and think, it will might work better for you. You definitely have the energy, so balance it with a little more logic and the results might surprise you. I’ve not seen many Kansans on this hunt which does surprise me since we are close enough to the Rockies to make it a little easier than those that search from a long distance.

      Good luck in the chase!

      • @Hear me all – thank you for your feedback. I’ve been studying NM lately, trying to take a more straightforward approach. The vicinity near Ojo Caliente has recently somewhat held my curiosity, and seems to fit well with my desire to transform Spanish meanings.

        In my defense, the overdoses of imagination have been a result of not solving using straightforward means in the past. This would seem a natural progression to me. There have been a few indications from Fenn (whether intended for people like me or not) that I’ve taken to heart and am now attempting to recalibrate.

        From where in Kansas do you hail? I am in Overland Park (when not in NYC).

  14. Hey Dal… I just read that the Ferry out to Lummi went out of service tonight. They are hoping it will be back up tomorrow. Hope your not stranded on the island 🙂

  15. Still new here, lots to know yet, but I can’t understand the preoccupation
    with “water” for location of chest. Isn’t it accepted that ff has said the
    chest is at the spot or very near to the spot where he wanted his bones
    to rest? Would he put his carcass in a river or creek or waterfall etc?

    Didn’t he go IN there alone? In a river, creek, waterfall, etc? Really?
    Doesn’t the poem say “if you are ………IN the wood ….” ??

    So now those who think that everything that the clues refer to or represent
    has to last for hundreds or thousands of years can put me on iggy,
    we’ll have to agree to disagree.

    Somewhere in ff’s writings I saw him mention something to the effect
    that he might hide a treasure at the base of a tree with his initial “F”
    carved in the tree. There was a picture or drawing of it. Can anyone
    find that reference, please? Might that not be a nod and a wink what
    “the blaze” looks like? Is a nod as good as a wink to a blind horse?
    Forrest has indicated that in the decades since high school his self-
    esteem is in good working order; why not an “F”?

    In a wood there is ground cover and duff and blow-downs and a
    continuous shedding of dead material covering the floor so a marking
    on the floor wouldn’t be visible for long, leaving, imo, a mark on a tree
    as the most likely solution. From there it’s what…12 or 20 feet to the
    chest? Which is still hidden, in a hollow log or tree stump (which won’t
    last for long) or under a rock or who knows? It’s not as big as the
    proverbial pirate’s chest is always depicted!

    I was checking out http://www.sinkcanyonstatepark.org ref conifer habitat.
    The Popo Agie River (not Creek) flows down and disappears (halts?)
    into Sinks Canyon. There is doug fir and limber pine on one side of the
    canyon and sagebrush on the other. Nice. Couldn’t make much else
    work…no warm water, no creek etc. but there was some food for thought:
    They have a high water table there (“water high”?)
    That part of Wyoming was covered by prehistoric oceans which were
    uplifted (“water high”?) during the mountain building epoch. Seems like
    a stretch to me but…

    More importantly was the statement that the Pine Bark Beetles have
    devastated forests across the West due to the decade-long drought.
    California has mind boggling swaths of dead pinkish-looking fir trees
    that can be seen from Google satellite, for instance. I know this first
    hand, we lost two pines in the backyard due to them.

    Forest fires are going to get more, and worse I would think. The
    wood could burn, the tree with the blaze could take the big dirt nap
    at any time, it won’t last for centuries for sure (in my world, in my
    solve).

    If Forrest truly doesn’t care if or when the chest is found, why is he
    giving more and more clues as time goes on??? I sense a growing
    urgency for the chest to be found, probably for many reasons:
    He really really wants the bracelet after all, he’s getting stressed out
    over the escalating coverage and media frenzy, his health is suffering,
    he’s sad about people taking risks that they shouldn’t, he’s unhappy
    about the clueless activity in Yellowstone??? And he knows that
    trees will die before 10,000 years? Also, it seems that The Spot
    is getting hotter (more people around, more Ranger scrutiny?)
    Is this why he said to leave your partner in the car? With the motor
    running for a fast getaway?

    I think the blaze is on a tree in a wood and it won’t last forever.

    Also, I have a crazy idea what “water high” is that fits with “wood”.

    It’s gonna be a long winter.

    • A very thoughtful post. Thanks for posting it.

      Regarding your sink hole Popo Agie river area. Didn’t Forrest say that that was four of the best days of his life, even though he only spent two days with his 14 year old Avis guide?

      This is not my area of search, but I gave it quite a look-over. There was a Warm Spring on the not-to-far away Indian Reservation. You might look that up.

      I could not make the clues work, but maybe you can. I could not find a suitable hoB…good luck to you.

      Regarding an “F” on a tree. Here is an article that seems to discount the “F” on a tree as a blaze:

      Quote from an interview by the California Sun Magazine.
      Out in the sculpture garden, Fenn beckoned me over and gestured toward the trunk of a thick white poplar tree. “See the F carved in there? That’s my initial.” The letter was barely legible now, a gray-brown knot that I never would have noticed if he hadn’t pointed it out. Fenn waved distastefully at another blur of gray, farther up the trunk. “There were other F’s there, but they’re obliterated now.”
      Such ravages of time are often on his mind now that he’s nearing his 85th birthday, though Fenn remains matter-of-fact about the prospect of his days coming to an end. “If I get Alzheimer’s, I’m going to flag my calendar for six months from now and do it my own way,” he told me. “Hopefully at my last dying gasp I will still go back to that place and die at my favorite …” He trailed off, perhaps wary of giving out a clue.

      It COULD be an “F” on a tree, but because of this article, I doubt it. Just MY opinion though, and what do I know? NADA JDA

      • I found this interesting from that article JD.

        “Hopefully at my last dying gasp I will still go back to that place and die at my favorite …” He trailed off, perhaps wary of giving out a clue.

        Favorite….
        Fishing spot?
        Waterfall?
        Creek?
        Tree?

        I wish he had finished that statement.

      • I was reviewing photos of the treasure chest the other day. I seem to recall a statement attributed to, or from, FF, that the treasure is “wet”. Could that also mean “damp”. The bronze chest and its contents will weather the test of time but the velvet lining will not. Do you think this lends any credence to the chest being in a shallow ledge or crevice near a waterfall (where rainbows are often found)?

        • Miller time,
          I have never heard of the chest having a velvet liner.
          I believe it is some kind of wood that will not be affected by water considering the chest is very old & probably not water tight.

          Forrest has made 2 such statements about the chest being wet that I know of & one of those was this year On MW WW I believe. I suppose damp could be wet as well.

          I’ve put my money in or near water as well as cascades & waterfall. I think the only way someone is not going to stumble or happen upon the chest is because it’s either buried under dirt or water but maybe in a crevice knee level but not eye level.

          • Jake,
            Thanks for the note. I seem to recall the treasure chest photo shows what appears to be a velvet liner under the lid. I will double check that. But, if simplicity counts, the idea of FF secreting the box near, but not in, water in proximity to a water fall makes perfect sense. Has anyone searched a location called Treasure Creek? It looks interesting on Google but I can’t find the HOB connection.

          • Treasure Creek Gunnison County CO?

            Looks like you found my mary plants growing there.
            I didn’t think anyone would find them buried in the forest with no roads around.
            38.435026, -106.341122

            That creek looks difficult to get to.

          • We must have different Treasure Creeks. I don’t see that trail or road there Robert.
            Send some coordinates my way.
            All you have to do is click on the map & the coordinate box will pop up in G Maps.

          • Yup,
            We got different Treasure creeks.
            Dunno Robert, never gave that creek or the other creeks labeled Treasure much thought as well as other areas, places, homes, called Brown or anything too close to words in the poem or having the same name in the book when it comes to details. I want to stay away from these too easy avenues.

            I’m sure someone can make all the clues fit there or anywhere for that matter.
            I want to start at the beginning WWWH & work my way to the blaze, which I don’t know what it is, but others gloat they know for sure what it is.

          • Looking around on Google, that spot near the end of the road looked interesting. If I were FF that area seems do-able in a one day outing by vehicle. I’ve not been in that area but wouldn’t be surprised to find some warm water in the area. I do not know if there are any cattle in the area, so this may be completely off the mark. But, force fitting my thoughts have never worked out. And, I’m not leaving Michigan until more things reveal themselves.

          • Looks like an interesting area to me Robert, but I don’t think you want to look at areas where he would want to hide it, that’s kinda like putting the carriage before the horse.

            Reverse engineering does not make much sense with this blueprint.
            Especially when he has stated to start at the 1st clue & not the blaze.

          • Consider moss also. A spot that is almost always wet from the spray and mist of the waterfall…a place where moss would grow profusely.

            Just a thought

            Hidden clues in stanza #5 have led me to feel that I am right in my paragraph above. JDA

          • Good point. I hadn’t thought of moss but it makes sense. That would also shrink the search area, if correct.

        • Being a stone sculptor, I can assure you Robert that unless you are using special tools, you are not about to carve your “F” on a piece of petrified wood out in the woods. Not sure that was a well thought-out post Robert. JDA

  16. RE: “near water” comments. To revisit an old idea…”so hear me all and listen good”. It would seem with this awkward word choice that perhaps FF was avoiding or HIDING the word “well”. In hush puppies and blue jeans he talks about a “cistern of ideas”. Old cisterns and wells are usually lined with stone…stones that could be removed to secret a damp treasure. Just a few thoughts.

    • Excellent observation. I have also given some thought to that. An old well or cistern could be worth considering

      • A Cistern with a liner. Not uncommon. Well worth the effort. Absolutely. (Even if it happens to be on ‘private’ property?)

        Perhaps.

        SL

    • Well Sandy,
      The grammar expert on this site told me that the grammar was fine & Forrest followed all the rules according to his teacher about 60+ years ago.

      Maybe he typed an extra o in good by accident & should be.
      So hear me all & listen god,

      I do believe a well has something to do with the solve but not a man made well.

      • Jake, you make me laugh sometimes. And I concur, the grammar is correct. But, you have to admit that it is awkward. It sounds kind of “aw shucks” if that isn’t horribly un-PC. If you are going to hide something, you might hide it first in the poem. The extra “o” theory is the best I’ve heard so far.

      • Recently I read something where ff wrote the word WET, but the context indicated he meant the word WHET. So if anybody has those old ‘wet’ quotes, I might be good to review them. Or were they audio?

        • Here is one of the posts:
          Dear Forrest,
          You have said in the cold months to wait for the snow to melt and the mud to dry. Considering much of the Rockies are subject to random and frequent bouts of precipitation, when is the mud ever dry? ~Thanks, I’m Inohury
          Ha, elementary question my dear Inohury.
          A friend’s six year-old daughter told me that mud can never dry because if it did it wouldn’t be mud anymore.
          Please don’t ask me to argue the point. F

          A second post said:
          Posted on August 2, 2016 by Jenny Kile
          Surprise Words from Forrest:
          Lots of rain in New Mexico. Some mountain roads are washing downhill. Please be mud aware. F

          Hope these help – JDA

    • The reason Mr. Fenn used the word “Good” instead of “well” is merely the fact that he needed a word that rhymed with WOOD.

      Lets get back to the place where warm waters HALT ..??

      • Listen well means you understood what you heard. Listen good means you can hear the sounds well. Maybe hearing an echo, or rushing water or something.
        I’m no grammarian, but that’s my poor interpretation of the dictionary explanations.

    • SandyB, I agree with you: that the word “well” might be important. In the book TTOTC, (after the preface) the first word in the book is “Well”. I have found an old well in my favorite search area. The well is pretty close to a petroglyph. I think the petroglyph & the well lead me to the Treasure. I’m hesitant to believe the chest is AT a well, because almost every well has a trail leading to it. Ff has said, the treasure is not within close proximity to a human trail.

      • Golden…I stumbled upon an old cistern (or possibly well?) near a promising search area a few weeks ago. It was near an abandoned, falling down cabin. The circular shaft, about 10′ deep and maybe a 4′ diameter, was constructed of cinder block type material that had a white thick plaster on the water facing aspect of the block. There was about 3″ of water in the bottom of the well. The dimensions of the construction blocks were pretty exciting…if a person were to remove a block or 2 a chest would slip right in the gap that was left…and be barely visible, even with a strong flashlight which I just happened to have with me. I took a lot of pictures of my reflection in the water and the walls of the well to see if I could find a hint, but I didn’t. Had there been petroglyphs nearby, I would have fainted. You are on the right path, I believe. Got charged by a bear that day, which was pretty exciting also! Actually, the bear was on a dead run and didn’t realize I was in it’s path…until it was about 30 feet away. Pretty fun day all around.

        • PS…if that cistern/well hadn’t been near some remote, not commercially developed hots springs yet accessible by vehicle if you have the key to the gate, I probably wouldn’t have given it a second thought. Just in case anyone wants to talk about WWWH.

        • Sounds like a great spot. It sounds like someone did a good job building that well. That’s wild that the bear was running in your direction. Yikes.

  17. Robert…Treasure Falls near Pagosa are very impressive. The creek is remote and access to water high formidable. I could never work out WWWH for that spot. Or HOB for that matter. Great ski area right up the road…maybe some rabbit ears nearby.

  18. I know this is a little “out there”…but what are the chances he put it in a lodgepole pine and let it grow for years? Or really in other tree’s your effort would be worth the cold because you couldn’t see it covered in leaves….sure a tree would eventually die, but at that point nature would just be rehiding the box in a way….

    • I’m not sure this could work. Many of the lodgepole pines that burned in the ’88 fire in Yellowstone are growing, but they’re not that tall; that’s 28 years ago.

    • Jonsey,

      First you have to focus and read the first stanza. This is the beginning . “IT” also tells you where to start.

      Think Big place to small place.

      p.s. For once I was blind…..Now I’m deaf too !!

      Mike out….

      • Ya know Mike, I also believe there is a macro to micro kind of look to this poem.

        Check this out.

        If one were look at a region in GE, they are in aerial mode / “macro”….but as you delve deeper into looking for canyons, creeks, etc. ….and….altough still in a “macro” view, you are also looking for those “micro” bits of the poem.

        One could also say that FF could have looked at a region on a map in the macro view, and decided to say, ” put in below” to represent a movement into an area below “hoB”. The brings the pkayer, into an immediate “micro” view…with….”no place for the meek”….a national forest in BLM land.

        Simplicity, yet a bit of cleverness, yet another chunk of imagination….and the picture is beginning to form.

        Happy hunting.

        • Jonsey1, I’ll find the quote; & then I’ll tell you where the quote is. It will take a while, but I’ll find it.

          • It’s when he said: It’s not in a tree but surrounded by trees. I see his quote in Cynthia’s story “Orilla Verde” dated March 2014. I’ll keep looking for where the quote came from originally.

          • And remember when we were all thinking: Everything is surrounded by trees, if you look far enough away? Hee hee . . . anyway; I’ll keep looking for the quote.

          • Jonsey1, I’m so sorry. I can’t find where that statement came from. You can see the statement on the Searcher’s Story Titled “Perfect Solution or Not”. However, I know that doesn’t prove to you that it’s a correct statement from ff.

            There’s a few very organized people on this blog who can find anything and everything ff ever said . . . where are you very organized people . . . ? Help me out here . . .

          • With Forrest’s sometimes extreme literalism, not in a tree could mean something like “You can’t go through a door, but you can go through a doorway.” (Paraphrased)

            Like it’s not IN a tree, but could be ON a tree branch.

          • Look quickly up, your quest to cease?
            If it’s in or on a tree, then I am at a loss.
            I highly doubt it’s in or on a tree.
            If YOU are brave and in the wood, not the chest…..

          • Jake and all-
            The original statement is from years and years ago…maybe 4 or 5…It was from a time when Stephanie was looking around Cimarron, NM. It comes up every once in awhile.

            Here is what was said about that quote over a year ago…

            http://dalneitzel.com/2015/06/13/the-nine-clues-25/#comment-92608

            Stephanie got that answer in an email from Forrest…and she shared it in a number of places.
            The next sentence in his reply is also essential..
            “Of course if you go far enough out, everything is surrounded by trees.”

            I personally believe that actually is a quote from Forrest. He has never denied it.
            But I still look up when I am out searching…
            Just as I may not believe the chest is hidden in water but I look look there too…just in case…

          • Thanks for clearing that up dal,
            Well, at least we know who said it anyway.
            So where are you Stephanie?

            As far as it being in a tree & looking up when you’re searching, I think you may miss something down. I guess it could be in a tree & I would hope it falls on me & kills me when I walk by. At least I will die knowing it found me.

          • E.C. Waters, Thank you! You are my hero.

            So this statement, I repeated, is “here-say” & should be “used cautiously”. I’m so embarrassed – I’m one of those people spreading rumors that aren’t true. Oh No!

            Jonsey1 – Thanks for questioning me.
            E.C. Waters – Thanks for correcting me.

            Once when I was searching, I saw a huge, wasp nest way up in a tree. It was the biggest wasp nest I’ve ever seen – it was large enough to hold the Treasure Chest. I ignored the wasp nest, since I thought the treasure wasn’t in a tree. Now I realize I should go back, climb up the tree, and grab that wasp’s nest & bring it to my car. It’s probably not a real wasp’s nest; and the Treasure Chest is probably hidden inside it.

            Just kidding – the wasps buzzing around the nest looked very real!

          • @ Golden: Ask and ye shall receive! 🙂

            Not to worry, in this case you are in fine company spreading hearsay.

            You may have first read it here–> http://dalneitzel.com/2013/01/27/rumors-abound-2/
            ——————————-

            🙂 Per Dal:

            Surrounded by trees – Forrest once wrote to a searcher that the chest was not hidden in a tree but that it was surrounded by trees. I suppose it is useful to know that the chest is not in a tree but the notion that it is surrounded by trees is definitely not a clue. Everything is surrounded by trees if you go far enough out. This is exactly the kind on non-clue a trickster would deliver.

            toodle-ooo………loco 🙂

          • Locolobo, Now I remember . . . YOU are the person who can find anything anyone ever said!! This isn’t the first time you’ve found a statement (from the past) for me! Thank you again!

          • Thank you for reposting, locolobo. Not only do I like this one, but I also like his response to a searcher when asked what he would want done to the treasure once it is found. Not only does he have a sense of humor, but also a bit humble.

          • Mindy, I remember someone who agrees with you: A few years ago, someone explained a very fun solve on this blog, which took them thru a town in, or near, Yellowstone (if I remember correctly). The solve went into a park . . . and the author of this solve, said the treasure chest might be up in a tree. And then the author said something like: I know ff says the treasure isn’t in a tree, but maybe it’s hidden “ON” a branch up the tree.

            Maybe I should go back and get that wasp’s nest. Now we need, not only a chainsaw; but also a beekeepers suit.

      • Did Forrest ever say “don’t mess with my poem” publicly or did he only say this to Dal in private? If he said it publicly I cannot find it. I am not questioning Dal’s sincerity, I truly believe Forrest said this to Dal and it is in the “cheat sheet” but if he never said it publicly why is it considered more of an actual fact than him telling Stephanie “it is not in a tree”? Do y’all not believe he said this to Stephanie or do y’all not count it as an actual fact from Forrest because he never said it publicly? I am just trying to get my public vs privately stated “facts” straight…

        • Good point Mark… I can say the same for reporter’s written explanation and their opinion to what they thinks fenn refers to.

          Fact finding is more important than trust… no matter how trustworthy someone is.
          Not unlike some who says fenn told me what the first clue is, because he mentioned wwwh it an email.

          • Seeker,

            I have my own personal “actual facts” cheat sheet, these are things I have heard or read Forrest actually say in public, 5000-10200 feet, not in a graveyard, etc, and then I have my “possible facts” cheat sheet, these are things people have said Forrest has said, second hand, in emails or personal conversations etc. If somebody like Stephanie or Cynthia or Dal or Jenny say Forrest said something to them in private but I cannot find anywhere he said it publicly it goes in my “possible facts”, I have no reason to doubt these good people but if I can’t find anywhere he actually said it publicly my strict rules have to put those things in the “possible facts” column and not in the “actual facts” column. Based on my strict criteria I will confess I still have the “don’t mess with my poem” quote in the “possible facts” column, until I hear Forrest say it publicly I still mess with the poem and look up in the trees periodically, especially the Bristlecone Pine trees, but the trees do have to be between 5000-10200 feet and not in a graveyard…

          • Mark I agree with you…….I’ve been very careful about what went on the cheat sheet. Which is why there are just a few items in the “what we are taking as fact” section. The reason it’s still there is because of the comment Fenn made in Scrapbook 114 as someone pointed out.

          • Mark,
            Like your “fact sheet” to “possible facts,” I like to add the common sense rule as well.
            My example would be Dal’s recalling what fenn told him, to be one of those.

            It’s common sense, that recollection, aligns with know fact fenn has stated. Amount of time spent on the poem, an architect wrote the poem, words look like simple words, but guarantees he work on it etc. etc. All seemingly saying the same, as the warnings fenn has mentioned… You will ignore the poem at your own peril, for example.

            While none of what in the above states any true fact… common sense may imply, more fact than fiction. IMO, mess with the poem, to mean, alter or change from the original… why would we?

            I think we’re saying the same.

          • Mark – I am like you, I collect all the statements I can find as related to the treasure chest and separate them into the two groups. Those specifically from f carry the most weight. Those from all other sources I find very useful and beneficial for analysis, but certainly subject to interpretation error.

            When one puts all of it together and looks at the big picture of everything that has been said or supposedly said by f, it is not hard to see those things which are likely incorrect jump out.

            When this game is over, I expect that the person who carries out the chest will be one who has used all the information they can find, applied logic, and successfully inferred bits and pieces of the puzzle to create a framework from which they are able to develop the correct solution. The person will have come at it from all sides and thoroughly thought it all through. “Whoever finds the treasure will mostly earn it with their imagination.”

            I do not anticipate that a person who approaches this as if they are building a bullet proof court case based only on hard, first hand evidence will be able to figure this out and solve it, especially if they are accepting everything f has said as unquestionable fact while mostly dismissing everything else. There are a number of contradictions that exist in f’s own statements.

            f has said “I reserve the right to be wrong once in a while.” And I have a specific quote from f that he gave me that proves this statement.

            At the end of the day, I can readily accept from others what they say f has said, not that I implicitly trust them. I can run it against everything else that is out there and easily see if it lines up or contradicts, and when it lines up, it becomes another thread that is twisted onto a thickening rope.

            I like your thought on the “Don’t mess with my poem.” It is from Dal, not from f. If you go and read Dal’s comments and experience with f on the 300 miles WEST of Toledo in Rumors Abound 2 and compare it to Dal’s story of “Don’t mess with my poem”, then maybe we should eagerly begin messing with the poem. Not that I am going to do so because I am comfortable accepting Dal’s posted statements about what f has said to him. 🙂

          • JCM,
            Halt & walk.
            I think it’s best not to mess with the poem.
            http://dalneitzel.com/2014/01/09/the-poem-part-two/#comment-30431

            “By the way. A couple of years ago I had a discussion with Forrest about “halt” not rhyming with “walk”. I was suggesting that one of those words might not be the right word and once the real word was put in place…and rhymed…that things became much clearer…
            Forrest listened to me for a little bit and then jumped in and told me very directly, “Don’t mess with my poem.”

            So I have not tried to change his poem in any way since then…

            dal…”

            I will buy this statement by dal 100%.

        • Forrest at least once publicly referenced (but not quite repeated) the “don’t mess with my poem” in scrapbook 114:

          “There was no way a slippery sided smallmouth black bass was going to scratch the paint on my special, sculptural artforms. That’d be tantamount to messing with my poem. f”

          I think it is more important to understand what he actually meant when he said “don’t mess with my poem”. When he talks about mouthy fish, I think he is referring to blabber-mouth searchers.

      • Muset, you are correct, thanks for pointing that out. I have read all the SB’s a few times but never caught that line, he clearly mentions messing with my poem. I stand corrected…

        I replied to your comment before but it went to the bottom of this page so hopefully this one will show up under your comment. Thanks again.

    • LOL Jonsey… that’s not a little out there. Maybe its a bit twisted…
      See what I did there, lol… twisting tree.
      Ok, bad humor aside… along with a shovel, metal detector, boat, scuba gear and a deli sandwich… we need a chainsaw as well?

      I do get the point of nature’s way of hiding things, but I have to wonder… what considerations did fenn take to help preserve the chest [ IF any ]. The chest is a valuable piece itself and dated to 1150AD. Wouldn’t it seem reasonable that the hide is a spot that would protect the chest and the contents as best as possible? Other wise he could have used a Tupperware container.

      I’m not being sarcastic… I’m attempting to be realistic in thought. fenn said he pick this chest for this challenge and paid 25K. I have a hard time thinking, if nobody will stumble upon it… he took the exact 10″ sq. spot in great consideration. I guess you can call my line thinking, part of… “I thought of everything”

      • Add the chainsaw to the mix LOL,
        Talking about time & when someone will find it does relate to how it’s hidden.
        But there are some things he has said that make me wonder.
        1,000 – 10,000 years down the road?

        “Well, you don’t know where it is,” he said, grinning. “When somebody finds that treasure chest, everybody’s going to say, ‘My God! Why didn’t I think of that?”

        Everybody’s?
        We won’t be here 1,000 years down the road & chances are the chase will be much less known & searched then if it’s hasn’t been found already.
        There’s 60,000 – 100,000 people searching now & I think we are near the peak of people involved.
        Everything has a pinnacle & i think it’s just about there.

        Once we all die out, who will be left to spread the word?
        I think the people searching will get less & less every year after a few more years.

        I don’t think you have 60,000 people out there searching for any of these other treasures that were hidden many years ago & some hundreds & thousands of years ago.

        So, I see this statement by Forrest: ““Well, you don’t know where it is,” he said, grinning. “When somebody finds that treasure chest, everybody’s going to say, ‘My God! Why didn’t I think of that?’”
        That someone is going to find it within 30 years maximum.
        Besides, 200′ isn’t all that far away when you look at the big picture.

      • Make perfect sense. The chest is almost certainly protected. Ledges, caves, above water but moist. Someone mentioned moss yesterday as well. I’m thinking Colorado after giving up on NM, WY, and Montana. Anyone done any research on D.R.C. Brown around Carbondale? Penny Hot Springs? Crystal River?

        • Robert— I think you are very wise to look in Colorado. I would encourage others to do the same. The state could use the tourism dollars.

          All the best in your search. 🙂

        • Hah, Penny Hot Springs is our local hippie dip. Pull over on the side of 133, and take a soak with whatever other fascinating individuals decided it was the place to be. Gotten pretty popular the last five years. If you ‘take it in the canyon down,’ you would be heading back towards Carbondale. The other direction does lead to the more scenic and remote villages of Redstone and Marble, but no river sentient person (rafter, kayaker or flyfisherman) would ever consider upstream, down. That just feels weird. The downstream stretch of the Crystal is beautiful, but really never gets more than 100 yards away from the road, at least not until you are well out of the canyon and into private ranchland. Avalanche Creek would be the only place of interest, and that might be worth looking into…Not sure I see a lot of parallels, but who am I to say? Happy Hunting! Drop me a line if you’re in the area.

    • It’s nice to some conversation on how it’s hidden, I tried to bring this up over in the hidey space. I’ve been working on this part since Feb. How do you hide something you don’t want found for 500-1000 years?

      That leaves me pondering…………if you are brave and in the wood.

      • Keder’s Mom;

        You may be closer to the answer than you think – That “leaves” me pondering – in the wood. JDA

        • Lol…that’s cute, but I do not think it’s in or under a tree or fallen tree. That would leave me wondering about how I would precisely know which tree to go to before I go. Think of how many trees there are in the RM. Billions.
          I’m happy with where I’m going, but it leaves me in turmoil with bravery. Why do I need to be brave(?) and the question of the who, what, where, when, and why of the wood and how that in conjunction with bravery will give me title to the gold? PS Thanks for your reply. : ) KM

          • KM,
            Bravery is similar, yet different in usages to brave; To take on a challenge, endure, daring, withstanding. etc.
            Bravery to me seem more courage, heroism, having nerve ~ that no fear type attitude, etc.
            So is “in the wood” only to mean tree[s]? spooky dark scary woodland.. or those things that go bump in the night thoughts.

          • Does this have anything to do with the most recent ww…*Victory will always justify the effort. f

            So… what brave effort in the wood that victory will justify……..do we have to do to find what is hidden? I need more coffee…..

          • Kedar’s Mom;

            It is so hard to answer your question without sounding like a “Know-it-all”, but there are lines in the poem that do lead the searcher from the millions, or even billions of trees, down to a small grove of trees, in a particular place. From there, there are even lines which (at least to me) tell the searcher which small group of trees, within that grove of trees to look beneath.

            I wish that I could be more exact, but alas, I can not at this point in time. I honestly do not want to come across as a “Know it all”, because I certainly do not “Know it all”. I just know a little, but hope to learn more soon.

            Best of luck to you in your search Kedar’s Mom…may you find all that you seek and TRY and STAY SAFE

            JDA

          • Q: So is “in the wood” only to mean tree[s]? spooky dark scary woodland.. or those things that go bump in the night thoughts.

            A: I just don’t think it’s tree(s) or dark scary woodland. You thoughts may vary. Things that go bump in the night thoughts? Not sure what you mean.

            It says brave in the poem not bravery, so I just go with my understanding of brave. : )

          • JDA if that is precise enough for you then that’s great. My understand of precise is a little different, kinda like that little X on an archery target, that’s what I aim for. : ) I love archery, but dry fired my bow a couple years ago on accident. Need a new Diamond.

          • K’s Mom…so I’m reading this poem that is replete throughout with phrases about fishing and canoeing and I know that this past time is about 8200 years old. I also know that the early nomadic practitioners of this activity made seasonal pilgrimages in very distinct types of areas and made their lapped siding boats out of very specific types of tree bark or layers. I also know that acquiring a cache evidencing this culture was a highlight of FF’ s life according to statements he made. While I know that following game trails on hillsides can be harrowing at times, and paddling quickly across typically cold trout streams can test your metal, I know that being methodical and deliberate should make the endeavor worth my effort. I am also aware that canyon water lines 8200 years ago during the close of the last ice age, may well have been a hundred or two hundred feet higher than they are now. Angles of seasonal material deposition repose (lake turnovers) and watermarks can give searchers hint’s of where waterlines were higher. Does this answer your question?

          • KM;

            How accurate do you want to get? I go from a very large group of trees,(A forest) to a grove of pines to a very small number of trees (Probably no more than 3 or 4) to look under the boughs of. I think that that is pretty darned accurate.

            If you want more accuracy, good luck to you my fair lady. I f the accuracy you want is as small as an X on an archery target, you may never leave the comfort of your lap top. Sorry if I sound cynical, I don’t mean to, it just came out that way.

            JDA

          • My point only KM is, maybe brave and wood are not common usages.
            I also could suggest that the reason we may have problems understanding or using later parts of the poem… because we don’t understand fully the start of the poem.

            Example; Lets have some Halloween fun and say, no place for the meek refers to a ghost town. Does this thought change ‘brave’ to a child like challenge. A dare to take on the challenge… I dare you to go in alone? Compared to bravery to mean dangerous situation or something courageous.
            In the wood might refer to the saying, in a coffin, referring to the dead town [ ghost town ] Does the place or even the name of the town have something to do with a prior clue.. Dirty Britchesville?
            [all stated in a poetic writing]

            Would riches new and old, have a different perspective in this case? Life and death… present and past, maybe of the town itself.

            What is the “Riches” we seek, to the “Riches” fenn tells of?
            [ the above are only examples ]

            Or is this poem only to be straightforwards ~ to the way we hope it to be [ common usages of words ], and brave is only facing danger and wood is just a bunch of trees.

            I must say it’s good to see that you are considering this section of the poem so carefully, [ in my mind].
            Others halt their journey at after 9 lines.

            Hope that helped, if nothing more than than a different perspective.

          • Seeker,
            I like your Halloween analogy it does help to try and see a bigger picture for the ENTIRE poem. Is that what were missing a big picture for the entire poem?

          • Seeker,

            Sorry, not sure how to get these replies to nest properly, I am glad to hear from you today. I cannot see all of your questions on my screen and scrolling around is a pain, so forgive me for not answering them. I appreciate your perspective information today. : )

            mensan,

            Your words are very interesting, did they answer my question? That’s hard to say you didn’t reference the question and try to avoid assuming at all costs. They were amazing people to live in a time long ago forgotten. I can only imagine the adventures and the treasures of their lives.

            JDA,

            Yes, I think it does require that much accuracy. If you have narrowed it down to three or four trees out of millions of trees in the rm, I’m impressed. Happy hunting. ; )

      • If you are “in the wood” then you “hit the bulls eye” …if you didn’t then you are in the horse hair area of the dartboard…one way of looking at it IMO.

  19. Nice trees 🙂 I didn’t mean lodge poles specifically just used as an example of a fast growing tree, another tree may conceal with leaves etc. Just a random thought.

    On that note (even if not a tree…say even a railcar…or something else I’d rather not mention) it
    Would be interesting to know if TC has moved and how far since placed. For example, on a ferry boat or the caboose of a train….it would still be right where he put it, one could walk right up to it…only it might be miles away from where it was left. I do, entertain the thought of it moving north in a tree though just cause I wish I’d
    Think of a hide like that.

  20. Speaking of “banco” … oh, we weren’t? Sorry.

    Just found Banco Julian today in my studies, somewhere near Olguin Mesa (Tea with Olga?). They’re in Rio Arriba County, which kinda means “water high”.

    Just some more provocation from Kansas. I’ve been stuck on “banco” for a while, so this was a surprise for me to find it, being unfamiliar and not having spent any time in the area.

    • E.C.,

      You are spending to much effort on spanish words and there meanings……perhaps you spent too much time gazing out the window in Spanish class when you were just a we lad …???

      Go back to the first stanza as it is the beginning…. that is the best place for your effort .

      Mike out….

      • Hey Mike – just go get it and end this whole discussion. Your contributions are …

        Where’s that poop emoticon when you need it?

  21. Who thinks the chest is at the blaze and who thinks it at WWWH? And who thinks the blaze and warm waters halt are the same thing?

    • It is my opinion that the chest is near the blaze, but not actually at it. The blaze and wwwh are almost 20 miles apart. Just my opinion. JDA

    • @Heidini – my working hypothesis is that the blaze provides confirming information on where to find the chest, but I don’t believe it is the end. I have to believe there is a reason for several more lines to the poem (map), and looking quickly down is just another piece of the puzzle.

      “Questa, NM” comes to mind, but I have yet to put all of this together in a coherent solution.

      • In full transparency, my current “straight forward” hypothesis suggests to transform the poem and perceived book hints like “tie to a post” into place names or historical people in the area, which, when plotted onto and connected on a map, may show a centroid for where to go. I may be way off, but that’s what I’m thinking at the moment.

        • O totally agree with straight forward, or centered. My only reason being logically knowing he knew the spot, it seems as if the rest of the points were scattered randomly one would only need the last clue. I think the most important location is referenced as the first often because, he knew the hiding spot of TC already….if the poem is linear he also had to chose a spot to begin. Or he made it a circle and same as end spot…I don’t see any logic in a patternless spray of points though. Just IMO.

    • I am of the strong opinion that where the chest is there is also a life-size Forrest Fenn dummy whom Forrest has affectionately named “I”.

      It is laying on top of the chest. Anyone passing by will think a person is just sleeping and will not disturb the dummy.

      This is why Forrest uses the word “dumb” a lot— like “I couldn’t get the dumb fire started.

      He can also easily say “I didn’t write the poem, I did” and make perfect sense (at least to himself).

      This strictly my opinion of course, and has no basis in fact.

        • mensan— except for the word Brown I don’t really get the connection. There are thousands of poems written like that–so I don’t think Robert Frost “wrote” the poem (so to speak).

          I guess what I’m saying is I think Fenn is the writer and the architect of his own poem.

          • Didn’t mean to sound so harsh in that post. The Frost poem may have had a lot to do with the poem– there are thousands of poems, but only one Robert Frost. I didn’t mean to make little of any poem he wrote.

    • Hi Heidini: for what it’s worth, I don’t think the chest is near either the blaze or WWWH, and my blaze and WWWH are definitely not the same thing. Good luck!

  22. We shall not cease from exploration, and the end of all our exploring will be to arrive where we started and know the place for the first time. T. S. Eliott

    Didn’t Forrest repeat this quote?

    It like we make a loop?

    • Heidini,
      I don’t think he meant it in a physical sense when he used that quote. I think the poem actually has a circular aspect with the end being the same as the beginning. This of course is imo.
      I believe someone asked him during the Moby Dickens q&a if you switch back and end up where you started and I believe he said no. You can check it out for yourself with the link below. Sorry I don’t have a time stamp for where that question was asked.
      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JXupxL4ovmY

      • IMHO he is using that quote to describe his thoughts about his boyhood adventures in Mt, just west of and around West Yellowstone. Now, is that where the chest lies…..

    • ..in ya onesie, on ya lap-top, watching TV in a warm comfy bed, ordering room-service, by chance?

      (that’s what I did too – it’s just so much easier than actually ‘searching’)
      🙂

  23. Kedar’s Mom…

    Clump(s) of Aspen trees, what color do the leaves turn in fall?
    When does the weather cool down?
    Okay maybe some cottonwood trees also give brilliant color, but I’m not sure they are as popular for people who like to carve names, dates etc.

    Went to a popular Colorado trail this August, thought for sure we would find TC.

    When you zoom in Google Earth ( adjusted for fall) the golden leaves really stand out.

    A lot of people had carved their name on these trees, but one guy really stood out, sometime back in ’59 I think, he left his mark just about everywhere we looked that day

    Look up ‘Pando Aspen grove’ in utah for some more amazing facts about these beauties

    • Sounds like a beautiful place. Fall is a wonderful time of the year for treasure hunting. : )

        • mensan_fennsan…that’s fun to say, : )….I don’t think your reply answers my question about brave. I have a really good idea of why I have to be brave. Will it lead to title to the gold?…..I sure hope so.

          • Kedar’s Mom…maybe after you read the Robert Frost poem that Jonsey1 recently found you will gain a different view about FF and his BRAVE term. Seems like FF must have read it. Best of luck.

      • Hey Kedar’s mom,
        You didn’t happen to be around 1 of my spots, where you? Cortez, Durang or the Mesa Verda N.P. area’s.
        I love it out there. Absolutely beautiful…
        Timothy…IMHO

        • Timothy,

          : )…..Unless you haven’t been to your site(s) since May, you’d know if I had been there. My orange hiking pole was the only evidence where I’ve been, besides footprints. Now I have it back so my adventures are totally secret. I bet the MV is amazing, there are many places I wish to see now. Grand Canyon, Yellowstone and more.

  24. “The poem speaks of waters, a creek, and a canyon. Pretty vague. Where do you start looking?” (altered paraphrase borrowed from ‘Last Crusade’).

    I find it interesting that FF answered a question with a line from an Indiana Jones movie “All I know are the facts, if you want the truth go next door to the psychology department.f”
    http://mysteriouswritings.com/questions-with-forrest/

    Makes me wonder if those movies in part inspired him to create his treasure hunt?

    Just my 2¢.

    -Randawg.

  25. I am exhausted… I propose that Dal & Goofy take a digital vacation during the week before Halloween… no posts could be added to the threads, posters could have a relaxed week to review and assimilate existing threads, and maybe even have an option to eliminate, or at least strike through any old posts of their own that they feel are not useful or are too redundant, or don’t enrich the discussion.

    • Is this going to be a paid vacation? Christmas is coming soon, and the better half has her eye on a dragon bracelet she saw on-line someplace.

  26. Any anyone have an opinion on the “rude aluminum grave marker?” Or the stone and the aluminum grave marker?

    • Heidini— had never heard that before. Does it have anything but to do with the search for the chest, or did an aluminum grave market insult you recently?

      • TTOTC, “My War For Me,” page 94. In part:

        ‘Then, when I started to push myself up, I came nose-to-nose with a rude aluminum grave marker.

          • Heidini: you might owe Joe a little apology — I think he was just trying to be a little humorous with the “rude” adjective for the aluminum grave marker. Isn’t it interesting that in Forrest’s context, rude and crude mean the same thing? In fact, the next time he describes it he does in fact use “crude”.

    • Heidini: my opinion is that stone grave marker is a hint relevant to finding the chest.

  27. Zaphod- perhaps there should be a sarcasm font or symbol. Misunderstandings happen often due to only being able to go off of one’s written text. Perhaps Joe was not being rude but crude!

    Joe sparrow: I apologize- a little…(sarcasm!) A wink can go a long way.

      • Heidini— Most of the time I’m the only one who thinks I’m funny. You’really right–there should be an emoticon for sarcasm. 🙂

    • Hi Heidini: I know how you feel on the excised emoticons. For some reason they rarely work for me here (usually getting converted into unrecognizable, illegible kanji-like symbols), so I settle for writing (wink) or (grins) instead whenever I think there’s a risk that my post’s tone will get misconstrued.

  28. Two other reasons that items and places referred to in poem may be only “temporary” (define it how you will):
    If HOB really is a house where “the Browns” live, is it likely that they or
    their descendants will still be there in hundreds of years?
    Geocachers are everywhere now, it seems. The SPOT is not that far
    off a road and the parking spot (put in) is nigh (near) to the SPOT. It’s
    not too improbable that someone might be in the wood roaming around
    merely to place a cache; the players would follow and who knows what
    they might accidentally discover?

    Probably ff had to place or make at least one, and possibly two markers
    in the wood to flag the chest location. I doubt that the SPOT came with
    a perfect pre-made marker. Just a guess. Maybe he hung a plastic
    bottle or jug of WATER HIGH in a tree (maybe 12 ft high?) just like you
    hang a bear bag? That would be “water high” near the chest aka
    “heavy loads”, and another marker to go with the blaze, yes?

    Either one might be found before the other I would think. He had to
    make the poem fit the SPOT. He had to work with the existing para-
    meters in his chosen area. He struggled for years to get the rhyme
    scheme and meter and everything just right, and maybe he used
    some poetic license to do it. He is a clever guy, after all.

    “Some things have to be believed to be seen.” Madeleine L’Engle

    If I were looking for the treasure and if I found myself in a wood
    that I hoped would be THE wood, I believe it would be wise to keep
    my two wide open eyes looking for a blaze and / or a water (jug)
    high.

    If I were to find the blaze I don’t think it would matter how “quickly”
    I looked down (1 second…10 seconds?) I would just know that
    the treasure was not up in the trees but “down” near the ground,
    on the ground, or maybe slightly underground somewhere nearby.

    Some clues are more important than others.

    Would a plastic water container and rope hoisting it high last for
    hundreds or thousands of years? Nope.

    Will a plastic jug full of water split open when it freezes? Nope.
    It’s recommended for maintaining freezer efficiency, actually

    To me, the poem is true; it is the truth.

    “Truth is eternal. Those who twist it are not, however, they
    work in shifts.” Unknown

    Twist it at your own risk.

  29. Interesting. I have quite by accident found at least a dozen geocaches within the last few years. Isn’t there a picture somewhere of FF holding a large stick suspended by wire ? As though to indicate that a similar stick or object may be hanging from a tree or rock outcropping or some such?

  30. One geocache was found in Cimarron Canyon last Spring, very close to a gravesite. The marble headstone/gravemarker was in an enticing meadow, somewhat close to the road. Decorated NM descanso style. Nearby the gravesite was a large hollow stump that naturally required investigation. Inside the stump was an ammo can, inside the ammo can the geoCache information and doodads. A Barbie for a cheap compass was the trade if I remember correctly. Sign the book and move on.

    • Sandy—- what is a geocache? I think the word explains what it is—but who is hiding them?

      • Joe, I know you asked Sandy but I I’ll jump in. There is a whole community of geocachers. Anyone can hide them or seek them. There is a website and an app. The hider posts the hide on the website and hides a container that holds a log and pencil and sometimes little odds and ends that you trade. Take one leave one kind of things. You find the geocache and sign the log and/or log the find on the website. There are literally thousands of these things. It’s kinda a fun thing to do but most of the time it’s really easy because you have the exact coordinates.
        It actually started from the armchair treasure hunting you alluded to with the search for the golden horse a while ago. I believe it all started with the search for the golden hare in England. People had so much fun they started hiding smaller caches for each other to find and it slowly evolved to just finding the hide and signing the log.

    • The Langoliers are coming!! Joe had not the patience to acquire the knowlege and wisdom to walk the not far, but too far two blocks. Thus, his warm waters halted at the turn-off. Without waters down the canyon the Brown, in a fit of brown, rifted the vortex! The Langoliers are coming!

      (mebbe Seeker could ‘splain it more lucidly?) 🙂

      • Easy peasy… Once upon a time there where three brown bears… Mickey , Donald, and Goo…er…I mean Pluto. They followed Reds directions to the the Ginger bread house, and met some gal with seven little one. With Pick axes and shovels they dug and dug, while Elmer Fudd laughs and laughs.

        Scene cuts to Bugs, smiling with his new gold tooth…

      • I have an extremely strange sense of humor–filled with bad puns, and things mostly only I think are funny. The only “rift” I can see is in my pants–sorry if anyone took anything seriously. 🙂

        • heck joe, me an ole seeker don’t take ourselves, or each other, seriously…..why would we take anything anybody else said seriously?? 🙂

          • 🙂 Wonderful Jake!!! Now, you can explain us to everybody else!!! That will put you at the head of the line figgering out fenn?

            staying on topic here, Goofy!!

            “Searchers continue to figure the first two clues and others arrive there and don’t understand the significance of where they are. f”

            Possible that he is referring to the significance of where they(the clues) are, within the Poem?…..just a matter of interpretation. 🙂

          • OK loco,
            This is what I want to do.
            I want to give the books, the interviews, statements, all to IBM’s Watson.
            I think it would be a great project to see what exactly this hunk of wire & chips can come up with.
            Now we need someone to arrange this & I am sure it will only take less than an hour for the whole episode.
            Where’s our connection? Zap?
            I’m sure this has been posted here before.

          • loco,
            You said: “Possible that he is referring to the significance of where they(the clues) are, within the Poem?…..just a matter of interpretation.”

            Lets look at what he said now: “Searchers continue to figure the first two clues and others arrive there and don’t understand the significance of where they are. f”

            I must be missing something because it clearly indicates where they are & arrive is the 1st 2 clues & not clues in the poem.

            Is this what you think he is saying?
            Searchers continue to figure the first two clues and others arrive there (within the poem) and don’t understand the significance of where (within the poem) they are.

            Oh, I see, I have to arrive at the poem even though it’s in my hands?
            What???
            I am not sure what you are feeding on, but you may want change your diet.

          • We could put Watson on the case, but after weeks of computing, Watson would probably announce that the answer is … 42.

          • Jake, you are such a wit with words!! 🙂

            What was your first clue that it was over your head??….the whooshing noise in your ears?? You should recognize that sound by now!

            Yes, I could break it down in a manner that you could comprehend, and possibly agree with. But why??

            The post was not for you, specifically!…..comprendo??

            God Luck to ya Jake!!! 🙂

        • UGH! ~ Good Grief ~ Now I have to be serious in the chase?
          I’m under enough stress wondering who, not to pick, for our next president.

  31. I would like to revisit a topic that is addressed frequently, but often without reference to the original message exchange. Over two years ago (6/27/2014), the following question was posted on Mysterious Writings:

    “Is any specialized knowledge required to find the treasure? For instance, something learned during your time in the military, or from a lifetime of fly fishing? Or do you really expect any ordinary average person without your background to be able to correctly interpret the clues in the poem? ~mdavis19”

    Forrest replied, “No specialized knowledge is required mdavis19, and I have no expectations. My Thrill of the Chase book is enough to lead an average person to the treasure.f”

    People have seized on the “average person” words from Forrest’s reply and twisted them to conclude that Forrest has magically created a puzzle that average people are just as likely to figure out as above-average or gifted people. THAT is a lot of reading between the lines, and in any honest assessment is utterly unsupported by logic. So my question is: Would these same folks who are comforted by the idea that they have just as good a shot at solving the poem as a genius be as quick to admit that someone they consider to be below-average or perhaps even a dolt has an equally good chance as they do? I find this assumption to be utterly preposterous in both directions.

    • So what you are saying is that “average” is relative to the observer. Correct?

      Everyone thinks they are at least average. So Forrest’s version of average may actually be well above the universal norm since he is an observer from the opposite side of the game.

      Help me out. Is that what you are trying to say?

      Scott W.

      • Good one. 🙂

        Let’s expand on this whole thing. Who is the average person in the context of Fenn’s statement?

        The collective group would be those who read books such as those that Fenn publishes. We just culled the herd with that statement.

        That leads us to ask who is “average” of those that bought and read his book. Surely, most everyone who reads such material is already above average.

        So, back to my original comment. “Average” is relative to the observer.

        Scott W.

        • Hey Scott, good to see ya.
          Interesting; “average” of those that bought and read his book.”
          Sure, many who would come across the book would be memoir / autobiography readers, others might be treasure hunters or explorer mind set readers. So I can see what you mean by the average type of the readers.

          Which raises the question that has bugged me from the start… Giving the book to a local, mom n pop style book store. I get it, fenn didn’t want anyone to think this was a stunt to make money on, and money goes cancer research.
          But, why is the store only selling this book from the store? There are no other agents involved. No advertising. You would think sales in foreign countries would be lucrative. No Amazon or other outsourcing used to sell the book [excluding private sales of used books ].

          Between 2010 to 2013… when the media took the lure of gold and instant wealth, and ran with it as a ‘big’ story. Was the average person to be only those who reads these type of genre?
          Even if so, why still keep it within a single store only purchase or order?

          I’ll say this, and many will not like it…IMO this poem can’t be solve by the many. As fenn said; if it was easy anyone could do it. It will need dedication… the same as the authors’.
          Right there, kinda eliminates the average…

    • Hi q1werty2:

      “So what you are saying is that “average” is relative to the observer. Correct?”

      Yes, but it’s more than that. In this case, “average” probably depends more on who Forrest considers to be the audience for his challenge. That already biases the IQ above 100 since a prerequisite for solving the poem certainly requires an ability to read it.

      “Everyone thinks they are at least average.”

      Yes: and half of them are wrong by definition!

      “So Forrest’s version of average may actually be well above the universal norm since he is an observer from the opposite side of the game.”

      There is no doubt that he is biased on that assessment.

      “Help me out. Is that what you are trying to say?”

      Actually, no. What I was getting at is that in general it is not possible to design a problem that is easier for intellectually-challenged people to solve than it is for average people, and so by extension it is illogical to assume that a problem that an average person can solve will be as hard (or harder!) for a bright person to solve. In other words, Forrest never said that the average person could solve it as quickly as a gifted person. He only implied that there was nothing so difficult about the solution that given enough time the average person could figure it out.

      Where an average person has an advantage, then, is in persistence. This happens a lot with entrepreneurs: many are not college graduates, but they more than make up for it with drive and steadfastness. The committed, average Fennian who spends 8+ hours a day, week after week, chipping away at the poem can thus still compete with the comparatively few geniuses that are working on it but only spending a few hours a week.

    • Well Zap some of the dumbest people I’ve ever met have a PhD behind their name. And don’t get me started on the idiots we are graduating from college these days that don’t have the good sense God gave a rock and fall apart faster than a buttermilk biscuit out in the real world away from their safe spaces. So the best I can tell we are heading downhill fast as far as average intelligence is concerned.

      I have noticed the chase seems to attract highly intelligent (at least they think they are), over emotional folks with really big egos…… Who couldn’t find a barn with both hands. Of course I’m not one of “those”.

      Back to your question; average intelligence is directly proportional to the depth of the average hole. DUHHHHH!

      • Hi Goofy!

        “Well Zap some of the dumbest people I’ve ever met have a PhD behind their name.”

        The (not so?) inside secret is that it stands for Piled Higher and Deeper. There is a penalty for spending too much time in university and not enough in the real world of Street Smarts 101.

        “And don’t get me started on the idiots we are graduating from college these days that don’t have the good sense God gave a rock and fall apart faster than a buttermilk biscuit out in the real world away from their safe spaces. So the best I can tell we are heading downhill fast as far as average intelligence is concerned.”

        A problem that underlies seemingly everything these days is that people lack critical thinking skills. Many blindly believe whatever they’re told; or unreservedly disbelieve it based on the messenger. Most people I encounter are not much brighter than a box of rocks when it comes to science, math, physics, history, geography or pretty much any subject that doesn’t involve the Housewives of Beverly Hills/Atlanta/Orange County, The Voice, Dancing with the Stars (a nod to poor Forrest there) or whatever is the latest reality TV show of the day.

        “I have noticed the chase seems to attract highly intelligent (at least they think they are), over emotional folks with really big egos…… Who couldn’t find a barn with both hands. Of course I’m not one of “those”.”

        My dear Goofy — you are the exception that proves the rule!

        • Zap,
          “A problem that underlies seemingly everything these days is that people lack critical thinking skills.”

          Bingo! My guess is critical thinking is not directly proportional to intelligence, but is extremely pertinent to problem solving.

    • zaphod … just a quick response here. You asked about “specialized knowledge”; then you changed the subject to ask about an “average” person. That was followed by poster responses about what is meant by the word “average”.

      Why quibble about semantics? I think your original question was a good one, a question that FF answered: “No specialized knowledge is required”, a clear, uncomplicated statement.

      To me, debating the word “average” is an academic exercise of minimal importance to finding the chest. However, knowing that I don’t need to prowl the library looking in dusty old books for arcane information is a great help to me. Maybe not for other searchers; I dunno.

      Ken (in Texas) 🙂

      • Ken: while I used the “specialized knowledge” quote, that’s not the part of the quote that I wanted to focus on. Yes, I think it was very helpful that Fenn told us that we don’t have to be in possession of any arcane knowledge to solve his poem. No secret fishing lingo, no Greek or Latin, no calculus. But what I was addressing was the unfounded idea that a person of average intelligence was just as likely to be the first to solve Fenn’s poem as a genius or a simpleton.

        • Zap;

          I am of the opinion that the person who solves the poem will be someone of only slightly above average intelligence, but will have a unique balance of logical thinking and imagination. I think that it will take both to solve the riddles. – Just my opinion. JDA

          • Jeez Joe, I fit JDAs description but I sure as heck don’t have a grey beard! Does that mean I don’t have a chance with the treasure?

    • Why are we focused on the word “average ” and neglecting the part of his answer that reads ” my TOTC BOOK is enough to lead ……..
      He didn’t say his poem could lead one to the treasure.
      Did anyone think it was odd that the person who asked the question was “mdavis ” ?

      • Eaglesabound,
        What do you find odd about “MDavis”? I means, the question he presented…
        Sorry M, couldn’t resist…lol

      • To put this all in perspective…i wouldn’t call him a genius at all, but Yogi bear was said to be “smarter than the average bear”…and F said we aren’t going to find it on a picnic…. I smell debauchery.

    • Zap,
      How to you really compare average?

      We have on one hand, a man who was trained in the military and high ranking fighter pilot.
      On the other hand we have a young boy who found an arrow head and imagination took over.
      Yet, we have a man who ran a very successful business, rubbed elbow with people from every walks of life.
      Still, we have a young teen who lived during the depression, and wandered the wilderness at his whim.
      And, a man who has been involved with organizations, museums, archeology, etc. etc. etc. Who has lived over 8 decades.

      We can chat about IQ’s, talk about how society and technology has turned most into social media junkies, how lousy the education system is… even how dumbass ‘We the people’ have become when are “best choices”? for the leader of this country are Trump and Clinton.

      I think the point you may be overlooking is, We all have the same “opportunity,” the same “information” and the same “tools” given to us by the guy who wrote the poem.

      “Average” to me is, understanding that “the opportunity to take on the challenge” gives all an equal leg to stand on.

      • Yes, Seeker, everyone has the same information and opportunity, and apparently nothing but “common knowledge” is needed to unravel the mystery of his poem. So it’s a level playing field. But that’s not the same thing as saying that everyone has an equal probability of solving it. It’s not a lottery.

        • Zap ~ “But that’s not the same thing as saying that everyone has an equal probability of solving it. It’s not a lottery.”

          This is where we differ. To many, this is a lottery, a goal for riches as a reward. That in itself is why the challenge is not for everyone, their mindset looks at this as only a treasure hunt. That is a perception ~ not intelligence.

          The opportunity does level the playing field though… the information gives the average person the same advantage as any above average person… no matter how we calculate intelligence.
          This might be the reason for the comment of “over complicating” there is no true need to know all the unknowns. Codes, bible, Latin etc.
          No need for special knowledge. Maybe more to the fact of common sense. Do we need to know, be above average, not to poke our hand in a fire, or does common sense tells us, we feel the extreme heat so don’t do that.

          We can discuss how we perceive that information, but does that have anything to do with average or above average, on who has a better chance.
          [a poem is all about interpretation] and as the author suggested… imagination is more important than knowledge…
          Take the game of darts for example; we are told the rules, given a board and darts… is there any way to measure how an average to above average intelligence will do?
          [ taking in the consideration it’s the first time played ].

          I think the “can adjust” comment is a more accurate assumption to explain average ~ The person who can use ‘just’ the information available and not all the ‘research’ [ above average attitude needs, that many feel is the only way to solve the poem.]

        • Seems like such a waste of time to try & figure out what type of person can figure out the poem.
          There’s only one type of person we should be trying to figure out. You must be bored.
          I think the type of person that finds the treasure is the one who figures out F. That’s obviously more difficult & relevant than the current discussion.

          • Wouldn’t it be a hoot if anyone could have written about what the clues refer to… and we didn’t know who that John Doe was?

            I could have written the poem before I hid the chest… ?

          • Hypotheticals are so pathetic Seeker.
            Way too many ways to run a ground.

            I am more concerned about why he mentions you need to know WWWH?
            Why does he also mention you need the 1st clue many times?
            How many interviews has he stated this more than other lines in the poem?
            I would say the most of any by far.

            So we need to get the 1st clue down or stay home.
            I think home is for those don’t see a clear pattern with WWWH & what F says about it & the 1st clue several times.

            When has he ever said you need to find out where in the wood is?
            Or how about as I have gone alone in there?
            Zero—Goose egg, NADA
            Not that I can remember anyway….

          • So what is the first clue Jake?

            Jake; “I am more concerned about why he mentions you need to know WWWH?”

            He’s mentioned hoB as well… if i told you that you would go right to the chest… There ya go… that must be the first clue

            Jake; Why does he also mention you need the 1st clue many times? How many interviews has he stated this more than other lines in the poem?

            Sure, but where does he ever say what the first clue is?

            Jake; When has he ever said you need to find out where in the wood is?

            I could say by his many comment you need all the clues. And he did mention in the wood.. in the same breathe he mentioned hoB.

            LOL Jake, If you to play who said what with me… you’ll need to do your homework. But I’ll be happy to play the game… the only mention of the first clues as wwwh is speculation by reporters with no facts or back ups.

            So, you assume that wwwh must be the first clue, but have never given a quote by fenn that states that as fact. [ just like those reporters ]
            On the other hand, fenn has stated you need to nail down the first… need to know where to begin… need to know where to start… again never said what any of that refers to as what exactly is the clue.

            So tell me ole’ brilliant one… where do we find the first clue? in the book? in the poem? what line in the poem? is the first clue out there in Googleville? If the first clue is a single spot within the RM’s, within a single state, within a single section of that state… where do we find it?

            Seriously, only using fenn’s calculations of 60,000 searchers… and all have their version of what the first clue is [ most thinking just like you… wwwh ] those places cover every state.
            Before the comment that told us the RM’s ~ many were in Nevada, Kansas, Dakotas, Idaho, etc. then before Canada was kicked in the A$$ many where looking there as well… Now that’s gone and searchers still are all over the Rockies in four states looking for wwwh.

            I have to wonder if fenn eliminated all but one state… would you still “know” what the first clues is?

            What is more logical… fighting to death an assumption, or actually trying to find the clue fenn says many ignore? Don’t dwell on enough, concentrate on “later” clues… and oh right! have deciphered but didn’t know it.

            But hey, only “time” will tell… if any of us live long enough to find it.

          • Yes he did mention wood, but never saying you need to know where it is.
            He has stated you need to know WWWH the most times of any line in the poem.
            He has mentioned you need to know where the HOB is at least once & mentions the blaze is one of the clues.

            So, that leaves 3 clues you have to figure or at least you have to figure.

            What about the rest of the poem as you always ask me?
            Riddle me that.

            Pssst, I think WWWH & the blaze #1 – #9 respectively.

          • Jake ~ “He has stated you need to know WWWH the most times of any line in the poem.”

            That is an assumption you see in your head… why do we see it? Because it’s the MOST asked question.

            I’m not going to argue that wwwh is not the first “clue” that will bring a searcher closer. But I will argue that it has never been stated by fenn “directly” that wwwh is the “first clue” he refers to.
            Not in ALL those videos, recorded interviews, book signing taping etc. IT has only been stated by interviewers/reporters who had no recordings.
            That is how you sell the news.

          • Seeker,
            I never said that he said WWWH is the 1st clue.

            Interviewer: “I guess you have to know where the home of brown is?”
            Forrest: “That’s right & you have to know where warm waters halt”

            This is just for starters, you can find the others if you’re not to busy.
            Maybe tomorrow I will enlighten your short memory.

          • Jake ~ “Interviewer: “I guess you have to know where the home of brown is?”
            Forrest: “That’s right & you have to know where warm waters halt”

            What’s your point? If you need to know where hoB, don’t you need the other prior clues to get you there?
            Are you saying canyon down is not a clue? or NFBTFTW?
            Did you forget consecutive order?
            Do you recall the reverse engineering question? If you know where hoB is why would you be concern with wwwh?

            C’mon Jake… Don’t make me plaster the blog with all the quotes… show me where fenn stated what you have claimed…

            Jake~”I never said that he said WWWH is the 1st clue.” ***{WAIT what?}***

            Jake ~ “I am more concerned about why he mentions you need to know WWWH?
            Why does he also mention you need the 1st clue many times?
            How many interviews has he stated this more than other lines in the poem? ***{what line is it your referring to Jake?}***
            I would say the most of any by far.
            So we need to get the 1st clue down or stay home.
            I think home is for those don’t see a clear pattern with WWWH & what F says about it & the 1st clue several times.”…

            Then explain how the above doesn’t say that your implying the first clue and wwh are on in the same?
            And yes, I get the dig that “Home” is for the armchair searchers… too funny seeing that searcher deciphered the first clues and been at the correct location… and all that Stomping did, was help them walk right by the chest.
            These are not opinions… they are stated by fenn…. which has been posted many times.

            So sure, knock yourself out… show me what I don’t know. Actually I would like that very much!

          • Seeker,
            If you don’t know my point after I made it very clear then maybe I should be huffing or smoking what you got going on.

            You wouldn’t know a clue if F himself told you. Well, that’s a given seeing what you ramble about.

            You are a lost cause that only tries to bring searchers further away from what they know. Even the facts are questioned by you that F stated.

            There is no use in going any further when you don’t commit yourself to anything.
            You should just give up & attempt write on knowing hoe to write.

            I laid it out for you perfectly & went right over you.
            You obviously don’t know the difference of imply or fact.

            I have just showed you many things you don’t know because we speak & type different languages & you are on the far end of the spectrum still sucking your thumb instead of eating & nourishing.

            Go back & read & UNDERSTAND what I posted if it’s possible for you which I don’t think it is.

            Have a good night.

          • I see Jake,
            You don’t like it when you can’t have it your way… This isn’t Burger King and you don’t get to wear the crown.
            But instead you start whining, throw out accusations, name calling, and the put down attempts come pouring out.
            I’ll add you to the Child’s list for future reference… Take your ball and go home.

          • I asked you one simple question Seeker.
            What about the rest of the poem as you always ask me?

            Then you came out with a barrage of crap with insults.
            If you don’t want to answer the question, then just ignore it don’t reply as I do but I don’t think it’s helpful to put people down & say things about them that is untrue.

            I still haven’t found any other interviews where he has said you need to figure out anything in stanza 1, 5 & 6 but yet we need to know WWWH, where the HOB is & the blaze is one of the clues.
            If you or anyone else has contradictory info in what I am stating, then please feel free to comment & please the insults at home with your balls.

          • Jake/Seeker – the only reference I have (and it is possible that there may be others out there that I do not have) of f discussing stanzas 1, 5, or 6 (except for when he read the poem) is:

            Reporter: In the poem, which you say has these nine clues, there are references to water, there’s references to Brown’s house; who is Brown?
            Forrest: There is references to wood.
            Reporter: But you didn’t answer my question, who is Brown?
            Forrest: Well, that is for you to find out; if I told you that, you’d go right to the chest. (10:41)
            http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ipvIGaVt7C8

            Note that the banter here is about things the poem is referencing and f’s “There is references to wood.” statement was an obvious redirection by f to avoid answering “who is Brown?”.

            A person might argue that “wood” may be a clue from this statement, but f does NOT specifically say that it is a clue. If an average man were to choose to make a rational argument for either “wood” being a clue or that WWWH is the first clue based upon that which f has said, he would be much better off to argue for the latter.

            As a side note, I took a few minutes to go through and count the number of statements/comments I have on various topics from or attributed to f (again, note that there may certainly be more out there that I have overlooked).

            For references/discussions on the blaze, I have 13 statements/comments.

            For references/discussions on WWWH, I have 16 statements/comments.

            For references/discussions to the first clue or where to start, I have 18 statements/comments.

            But what was most interesting was the category of ‘hints in the book’; I have 21 statements/comments.

            Everyone can make of that what they will, which probably isn’t much. But if one wants to gauge what is most important or most significant based upon the number of times f has brought something up, then ‘hints in the book’ sits at the top of the heap.

          • @JCM – assuming you are also a collector of Fenn’s spoken and written words, I very much appreciate your interpretive analysis. Thank you for the post.

            In full disclosure, I am a strong believer that the clues are actually “clous”, or locations, and that the hints do not stop at “quest to cease”. It would seem by your pointing out the “wood” reference, you may be suggesting the same, but I am unclear as to your position other than to present there are other references. I also believe the book as well as many of his statements are filled with hints that are not deliberately (in sequential order of the poem) placed to aid the seeker. Instead I believe they are randomly placed to fit into his stories. Nevertheless, I believe they are placed. I only distinguish between a “clue” and a “hint” because this was distinguished by Fenn and others early in the chase, and because I believe the intended meaning of Fenn’s “clue” versus “hint” is to point out these are locations, like “clous”, and that he wanted to point out his use of homonyms. Otherwise, “clue” and “hint” are the same to me.

          • Hi JCM: good summary of the comparative occurrences of Forrest’s statements about the first clue, WWWH, blaze, and book hints. You wrote:

            “… if one wants to gauge what is most important or most significant based upon the number of times f has brought something up, then ‘hints in the book’ sits at the top of the heap.”

            By my count, there are more hints in the book than there are clues in the poem, so your analysis is accurate on that score.

        • Seeker wrote:

          “This is where we differ. To many, this is a lottery, a goal for riches as a reward.”

          I meant in the sense that in a lottery, everyone has the same (crappy) odds of winning. This is simply not true for Fenn’s poem.

          “The opportunity does level the playing field though… the information gives the average person the same advantage as any above average person… no matter how we calculate intelligence.”

          No, Seeker, I have to disagree. Just because no special knowledge is required doesn’t mean everyone has the same chance of success.

          “[a poem is all about interpretation] and as the author suggested… imagination is more important than knowledge…”

          And imagination is strongly tied to intelligence. A bright person will see patterns and make connections faster than an average person.

          “Take the game of darts for example; we are told the rules, given a board and darts… is there any way to measure how an average to above average intelligence will do?
          [ taking in the consideration it’s the first time played ].”

          Not a good analogy since intelligence isn’t the main factor in predicting success at darts. But to borrow your example, does the dart champion have the same odds of winning as someone who is just learning?

          My only motivation for bringing up the topic at all was to counter remarks here implying that a bright person could somehow be at a disadvantage to an “average” person. As if Forrest had magically designed a poem that only an average person could figure out.

          • I sure hope it is for the average person , hopefully maybe a little under. I have a great sense of imagination and reading into poems probably not my strongest hand but if you don’t try you will never find out

        • Zap ~ “And imagination is strongly tied to intelligence. A bright person will see patterns and make connections faster than an average person.”

          I’ll give you that one… But doesn’t imagination have to do with experiences? a child’s imagination of Santa Claus is from what they have been told. or a bad dream they had from a show or movie the watched. Can imagination be misinformation as well as factual information.

          Or is imagination usable for solving the poem by asking those “WhatIF”
          What If the first clue is in the first stanza?
          How do we read the poem in that manner.
          What is the first clues is Begin it where, but where in time?
          How do we read the poem in that manner.
          What if the poem’s, know where to start, actually be in stanza five and the first “clue” to get closer is in stanza 1 or 2?
          How do we read the poem in that manner.

          Doesn’t a child ask those “WhatIF” because the imagine things from what they know or learn from.
          Maybe in a better known term.. why?

          If geography might help, as suggested. What is the objective to geography?
          Before for someone comes back with the dictionary version… “the study of”…
          Geography asks those WhatIF’s … the, “when where why and how” questions. I dare say, imagination is key to understanding the fact finding to those answers.

          How did they do it? Build those structures, cross the oceans, live in dead of winters, travel around the world…. survive. I wonder what the ancients IQ’s were? or was it even measurable.

    • It seems like there is a lot of talk about the competence and capabilities of the average man, but what about the rest of the sentence?

      My Thrill of the Chase book is enough to lead… to the treasure.

      Is it only because the poem is in the book or is there really more to it with the book and its subtle hints that will lead the average person to the chest?

  32. After 5 and 1/2 years on this and numerous searches I found a alligator on the other side of the river was now trying to figure out if this was a clue or not .seems to all ball up in a big fog in my brain

  33. I think the George Burns joke in TTOTC about a mad alligator is included for two reasons — as a simple ‘funny’, and, for a less simple purpose of making the other Burns joke not so noticeable by stark isolation … because that one is a real hint. Plus ‘Burns’ is a serendipitous suggestive bonus for brown.

    • Thanks os2 I went back and found it mr.fenn said first rule don’t make the alligator mad before you cross the river

      • Yes, he likes to make lists of rules. Placement on the list meanders over time. Good luck Tonto, but remember, I’m just observing and guessing too.

        • I think when the chest is found we are going to find out that everything he has said hints to one specific thing Imo including all the drawings in the books all relate to one spot

    • OS2: I don’t think the alligator joke originated with George Burns, but you are wise to pay attention to it. I think it’s a rather clever hint.

      • Thanks Zap, How the heck do I look up authorship of alligator jokes? I would love to know what you are referring to, but i think maybe age/health is the killer & the gator is a ringer. Now Im gonna try and find out how ‘its a ringer’ got to be a colloquialism … right after i figure out how it differs from an idiom. I’ve recently found a Pogo phrase i like about for my keyboard… its my ‘finger of speech.’

      • Hi OS2 — that hint is for a clue too important to reveal, but I will give you a hint to the hint: Forrest made a subtle, deliberate mistake in the sentence leading up to the joke quote. Can you find it?

        • Ahh, so once again no takers. Fine, I’ll give it to you:

          “Anyway, I was ahead for now, but I remembered what I’d heard once on the Amos ‘n Andy radio show: ‘don’t make the alligator mad until you’ve crossed the river.’”

          Forrest left off the second apostrophe after the
          N in Amos ‘n’ Andy. “So what” you say? “It’s just an honest mistake.” Yeah, just like spelling the bookstore “Border’s” and “Borders” in the same chapter with “borderline biddies” is just a coincidence.

          • Zap, thanks. I tried to post what I thought it had to do with solving the poem, but both times I typed out my long winded response, it wouldn’t go through.

          • Zap, Saw your challenge just now – sorry I wasn’t present when issued. Hosted a cage match today between a broken pipe exposing termites and a beaconing Santa Clause. Santa lost. Reminded me of a fight I won 60+ years ago against nuns who tried to teach me punctuation. Victory always justifies the effort.

          • Mindy— that’s great. Looks like you’re poi sed and ready to beat all the other hula gins looking for the gold. If you find it we’re all going to Kauai.

          • Zap, “slips of the pen,” it’s a real thing, and poets love to use it to convey meaning.

            The Psychology of Errors by Freud is amazing in the way it fits.

      • Ha Ha…not funny. The thread above inferring that intelligence or lack thereof might have anything to do with an individual’s proposed/supposed ability to solve Fenn’s poem is redonkulous. Also, people that infer that their hints/clues are to be coveted and you must be studious and agree with them profusely to attain that level of acceptable knowledge already know that their chances of success are less than nil. After all, that is where the fact factor stands as of right now…just saying.

        • Something crawling up your pant leg Ken?
          Should have moved on off that ant hill.

          Really, I’m sorry if you feel bruised, I have no intent to harm, or infer that I have secret insight. My lightbulb is so dim you have to strike a match to see if it is on.

          • No OS2 I never stand in an ant hill…I prefer going all the way in so I always take the prone position. Your good, I never get bruised. My comment was not aimed at you or anyone in particular.
            And Jonesy, your secretly coveted tidbit is interesting. Your delivery is always a delight and entertaining two boot…

  34. Here’s a random factoid I haven’t blabbed about in awhile but makes me smile when I remember it. F speaks of sitting up late past midnight by his juniper fire. Commonly people also speak of waiting up late by the phone. When F was young phone numbers and exchanges were a word, given to the operator, abbreviated in the phone books as two letters then four numbers. Their cabin in West Yellowstone was in the JU district. When spoken to an operator the word was “Juniper”. If you phoned ForrestFire at home you’d technically be looking to phone home Juniper Fire….

    Reeces Peaces Anyone?…

    • * I do secretly admit I think this is a hint to be coveted. Not sure why though. I just cover it unconditionally. Anyone that wants take a liking to it as I do is welcome as well.

      • I really like it Jonsey I think the small hints slip by alot which is why no one has found the chest yet

  35. I always enjoy reading your thoughts from my comfy couch Jonsey. So many people with a talent for deciphering f’s words. However I think some of this stuff is a huge distraction from what is really needed. Not that any possibilities should be discarded, but I believe ff said from the beginning that all we need is the poem. Take away all of the supposed “subtle hints” he has given out since then, and still all you have is the poem. May be tougher without the book but I still think the one person who uses their imagination to get through the poem will be the one who finds it. Anything else is seems to make good habitat for rabbits. Just my opinion.

    I am sitting here at work and just felt like chiming in. Please take no offense. Yeah my boss is cool with it.

    • I don’t take any offense at all, nor do I think it solves the poem. Just a nuance I enjoy, and something I noticed in a phone book. I don’t think it’s illogical to think if the poem references places maybe the more we know about different places the more we would be able to understand lots of stuff in the world, not just this hunt. Knowing the location of Yellowstone’s area code is no different in my mind than learning about any other place the poem might reference. That’s why I post here, to share stuff and learn stuff.
      You must have a really great boss to be on a comfy couch 🙂 you got a 401k that covers a bed you can get chained to in event of promotion? Sounds posh.

      • Ha! I would quit if that ever happened. Love my job! Sort of like a fire dept.

        I probably spoke out of turn. If it weren’t for all the interesting random ideas, what would everyone talk about. This stuff is almost priceless. I will try to keep that in mind. I wish I had something to contribute that would help others, but then again why? I have ideas that would just start an argument, and I don’t want to be one of those guys. Kinda have a hankerin for some peanutbutter tho.

        • I dunno. I don’t see many arguments arise from talking about interesting facts and sharing stuff. I’m not really interested in telling people how to think…sheesh if everyone thought the same way as me I may as well talk to a mirror.

          Reminds me of a poem:

          Roses are red
          Violets are blue
          I’m a Schizophrenic
          And so am I

          (Insert huge argument on how it’s not a poem because it doesn’t rhyme until dead porcupines begin shooting quills here…lol never ends well)

          • Just change the last line to “And I am too” and you’re set. 😉 Though your version is funnier… until you take a porcupine quills or two.

          • No. I think you mean it should be “I am two” jeez zaph. Get a dictionary and focus on the correct process already.

            Now this thread is about Juniper Fires and JUNIPER FIRES ONLY. It will NOT get out of hand (and I mean a human hand NOT the technical term for a bunch of bananas) we have a somewhat firefighter nearby aptly armed with peanut butter ready to remove gum from anyone’s hair….but only if it gets TOO hairy.

            No back to calling fenn by his juniper fire…you see anything there worthy of a fun tangent?

  36. All,
    IMO, when F asks why we need to find wwwh if we already know hoB, he is serious. There is a reason why, and we need to figure it out.
    On the other hand, our kids wonder why I am searching for TC when I have difficulty finding a gallon of milk in the fridge.
    The banana did not come in handy today, but I did use my flashlight for the first time tonite. Safe searching, all!
    Geoff
    “Have flashlight, will travel”

  37. its my opinion that ff thought of every thing when he wrote the poem – even going as far as telling us where wwwh is- imo the 2nd stanza tells you where it is

  38. Test post. 3rd try.
    mensan fennsan,

    I’m going to reply here re: the RF poem. I couldn’t make heads or tails of how that would fit in the chase. Even read the cheat sheet understanding of the poem. Seems like a rabbit hole to me. : ) Happy Hunting.

  39. NOTICE: I’m going to be working on the server this weekend. If you have trouble accessing the site it’s probably my fault. I will try to do most of it late at night so there’s no more disruption than necessary.

  40. Fun weirdnesses for the random odds and ends, and for no other reason…

    Gypsy Magic and Rosetta Stone, vignettes on faiences, scarabs, and Egyptian gods seems directed toward Egypt.

    42 nomes of the Egyptian Upper and Lower ancient cities. Whitewall… done it tired, like Bullet? Mediterranean means “middle”. An oasis is curiosity for where warm waters exist and are not moving. I’m learning hieroglyphics in my spare-a$$ time in case wrm wtrs hlt in hiero is a thing. Can’t seem to find an owl and a mouth that makes any sense when looking at existing steles, but still looking. The reading direction seems important… birds, other beasts, or people facing a direction, like “you need to read this l to r” or “r to l”. Jonesy1, I know you’re all over this already. Egyptian theme of Rebirth, like a NM mountain range inside a comprehensive geographic naming information system, might or might not be a thing for ‘decrypting’ “source” or “birth”.

    42 miles from the El Tovar Crystal Canyon is another totally unbelievable weird-a$$ caver myth, with what? Egyptians in the Grand Canyon??? Not at all for the meek.

    There is a bloggit here named 42 who always has weird-a$$ ideas about 42, too. Respectfully yours 42… I like your posts.

    Again, posted to help inspire thought, and for no other reason.

  41. So, why is the poem straightforward?
    Why would this man revert back to the deception he was dealing with during his prior days from people before his illness?

    Why would he regress to their level?
    That would make him a huge hypocrite.

    It’s straightforward, difficult but doable.

    • @Jake – I don’t know the answers to your questions. But from my research, I propose to have a look at the most simple translation of Llano (NM), and cross-reference smiling at a homely girl.

      • The bottom line is the deception is in our own minds & the further we stray from what it says, the less likely we will be able to be successful.

        I think he designed this poem for all, but if you out think what is right in front of you, you may find yourself straying way outside his boundaries.

      • He’s the one that looks in the mirror every day & knows if he was one of the searchers & not him, he knows its straightforward.
        He doesn’t like the physical reflection in the mirror but would have to say he’s satisfied with the mind.

        • @SandyB – def a lot of curiosities in the area. I also like Solo, NM as “alone in there”. I haven’t spent enough time connecting things together yet, but the area is holding my interest.

          • E.C. Waters: Fred Harvey’s son’s name was Ford. Hmmm. Sure are a lot of “Fords” in FF’s stories. And various solves. The Vado dam is also a popular “ford”. I love the term “Detourists” that was used back in the day by Mr. Harvey. He was a genius.

        • @Jake – while I don’t yet feel Llano is a part of the poem clue set, I have an overly active penchant for connecting Fenn’s words to GNIS place names using homonyms, language translations, and straight-forward application, especially if it fits somehow in any current area of interest. I do this to self-motivate for researching an area, and if enough turns up, to physically go looking there.

          Llano is a Spanish word for “flat”, but is also a Spanish synonym for “straight-forward” and “homely”. These are two words Fenn has used that seem significant to me.

          In Scrapbook 92, Fenn talks about a yawning opera singer, and a mummy. On the way out of Santa Fe County heading north, there is an outer-road nearby named Opera Drive. It is inconsequential. Llano is pronounced “yawn-o”. Also inconsequential. I’ve been rabbit-holing with ancient Egypt for connections to “decoding” Fenn’s poem. Did you know bananas are also found in hieroglyphs? The Arabic word that sounds like banana means “finger”. I’m “amused” by the synonyms for the various genera of a banana or plantain, like “llantèn”, and how a rhyming Spanish word for “pineapple” (“ananas”) seems significant to me from TTOTC. There is also a location named Piño, NM. It was once named “Amalia”, similar to the whole Amelia Earhart’s cabin frenzy that occurred after Fenn posted a story on his website on Amelia Earhart in April 2011. I only point out these things because of my overly active penchant, and to help explain why I pointed you to “Llanos, NM” for “straight-forward”.

          • Oh, the Arabic word for “Brown” also seems like banana. Coincidental, but still makes me smile.

          • That’s quite a lot of information EC,
            It’s good that you research many words that he has used to see if something sticks but bad also, where it increases the rabbit hole population.

            Yes I do think there are some hints in his statements but the “straightforward” statement seems to be as such.

            I just try to take places from his books & use them as the subtle hints as long as the place he mentions is not a small area, cause it wouldn’t be subtle anymore.

            I am still in the “Looking for Lewis & Clark” camp & will only search SW Montana.

          • @Jake – I don’t deny I am exploring rabbit holes. After 6 years of a published poem, and who knows how long since the chest was hidden, I’m kinda of the opinion now that rabbit holes should also be checked.

          • All of us are just trying to eliminate the rabbit holes.
            What I was truing to say is maybe if we don’t sidetrack we will be better off.

            If we keep drilling down on words & there meanings, we end up with way too many definitions to choose from & it is more likely we can make something fit but we went too deep.

            There is a happy medium somewhere, but where?
            Maybe it’s at the bottom of a well but the well would ave to be shallow.
            Don’t let the drill bit go too deep.

  42. Try this decipher on for size
    Valles Caldera
    Short Canyon
    San Antonio Mountain
    Sulphur springs
    No movement up your creek
    The end is near
    Sulphur springs boiling pot
    Horse outline of sulphur spring from altitude
    Return to ground and look below the blaze,
    It’s over if you look here
    Stacked rocks ladies bath house
    Forrest wants to be buried in a spot enjoyed by a thirteen year old not an adult

    • Stacked rocks ladies bath house may be the key I’ve been looking for. What an astounding find! I’m truly flabbergasted that I did not see that. I’m kicking myself. Simply brilliant!

    • “Forrest wants to be buried in a spot enjoyed by a thirteen year old”. Again, brilliant. I had failed to think of arcades as treasure hiding spots. But it all makes sense now. Could “Indulgence” be hidden under a “Mortal Kombat” game in an arcade near Denver? Could very well be.

      Thanks so much for these eye-opening themes you have shared. I have new found hope for finding a solve now.

      • I searched under the Mortal Kombat machine near Denver already Sparrow – just found large lumps of old chewing-gum (which was a small treasure in itself, given how famished I was at the time)

        I also spent many many very long hours observing the ‘stacked rocks ladies bath house’ from a safe distance, but no clues there either..

        infact, I’m actually there right now, with my telescopic camera and infra-red binoculars..

        oh wait, is that a police-car?
        🙂

    • TimW – I was there twice in the last month. Looked hard. Cool spot. There’s even a gypsy wagon, a cistern, and an old cabin. There are bubbling mud springs, steam vents, and more. Abandoned long ago. Total wreckage now. I don’t think FF wants to lie in eternity in that particular spot. I could be wrong.

    • TimW – I’m not sure how you came up with your coordinates. I used a map and the poem. I’ve been all over that country, and it is magical. It wouldn’t surprise me if FF thought the same. In fact, I believe he said as much in response to one of Cynthia’s search reports (the one where she explores San Antonio hotsprings, not the mountain). I chatted with some researchers at the Alamo Fen…boy were they surprised to see me stroll up! The area certainly is worth exploring. It’s a hot spot for sure.

    • ” ..wants to be buried in a spot enjoyed by a thirteen year old”

      just as I suspected!! ..Forrest secretly wants to be buried in the front row of a Justin Bieber concert!!

      “hear me all and listen good” ..which is obviously the key-word, right?!..

      that also explains why (were the treasure found) we’d all be sighing and asking “why didn’t I think of that?”
      ( ..probably mostly sighing though)

      a single question still remains however,
      ..where did Justin purchase his ‘pine & sage-brush’ cologne, and how can I get a bottle for under $800 plus taxes?!
      🙂

  43. One more thing
    106.6138
    35.53.88
    You’ll have to figure out for yourself how I came up with the coordinates
    Please don’t tell me this is a code

      • Made a comment yesterday that, apparently, didn’t get posted. Regarding the coordinates. Those numbers are for Los Alamos. Does that mean the treasure is now radioactive or, perhaps it glows in the dark. Perfect for Halloween 🙂

  44. I think the Flyer would have made one, outstanding Boy Scout, and bet that he would have made Eagle Scout wayyyy before most.

    SL

  45. pdenver,

    I don’t get the sense that the BSA have seen anything yet, my friend.
    Another Fenn legacy IMHO, may already be…in the making.

    SL

  46. This evening we gave out candy for Halloween. We had full sized Hershey chocolate bars on one side of a platter and full sized Cadbury, Lindt, Toblerone bars on the other side. Almost invariably the older kids went for the Hershey bars while the younger kids went for the Cadbury, Lindt, and Toblerone bars. I suspect the operating principle here is the same as Forrest’s comments relating to feeling children may have an advantage in the search. Even older vs younger children may be conditioned to react to the world with a bias towards the familiar.

    • Great observation re: preference bias toward the familiar vs. novel. Wish I was trick or treating at your house. In New Mexico, they call the small reservoirs or watering devices for livestock and wildlife a “trick tank”. Often found in remote locations, kind of like a cistern only different. Wait, we weren’t talking about cisterns, were we.

    • Heidini: Skip the long posts. Permanently save the entire completed blog webpages and open and read them preferentially (wait for full page load prior to save). If you update a page then save it with a new datestamp. You might delete parts you find unnecessary. Keep a record of post numbers for important or novel topic considerations. Learn how to save or reference a youtube video at a specific timestamp. Print out the poem. Develop a chronological FF timeline (with hotlinks to supporting posts). Research FF’s history and preferences. Understand recurrent contexts in the poem. Keep an open mind and don’t let sentiment dictate your solve. Keep it simple. Ask a kid what they think. Put boots on the ground once you decide potential WWWH. Get in and get out. Time is of the essence it seems at several points in the hunt IMO. Don’t trespass. Be safe. Don’t risk your health. Seek potential blazes within the hunt.

      • I was referring to that chapter title in the book. I was just trying to decider it. Other chapters are pretty straight forward like “in love with Yellowstone.”

      • I was referring to that chapter title in the book. I was just trying to decider it. Other chapters are pretty straight forward like “in love with Yellowstone.”

  47. Has anyone given any consideration to the idea of a searcher who has been within 200 feet or 500 feet as meaning 100 people or 250 people? Is it possible that a particular event could have been attended?

    Also, could 66,000 links be computer links as opposed to physical measurement?

    Just pondering thoughts…..

    • @Fenngshui – I (currently) speculate that 500 ft / 200 ft may be related to whitewater rafting and a couple of random searcher posts here on dalneitzel.com. I (currently) speculate that 66,000 may be related to the Manby land deal. Google it. Dude seriously lost his head.

      I (currently) speculate a bridge is heavily involved because (guilt by omission) Fenn suggests poker and canasta, but not “bridge” as a card game for whatever reason. Although he does mention jumping off of a bridge. Whiskey Tango Foxtrot.

      Oh, and in full transparency, my speculations have, historically, been wholly inaccurate.

  48. To all searchers~

    The answer vs. answers, I know this has been discussed many times, and f has said it didn’t matter which one you choose, it will work. If that is the case then only “answer” will be correct. If “answers” were to be the right one then answer could not be used in its place. So it’s either one or the other, it can’t be both unless it’s singular. There is either 1 answer or more than 1. So the only way it could work correctly is that there is only one answer according to what f said. Do you see the logic? If there is more than one answer then you cannot say answer in its place. So in this light, there is only one answer to the question “So why is it that I must go and leave my trove for all to seek.” Now, what is that one answer?

    • ManOwar,
      The related question was about fenn’s web page to the poem itself.
      If I recall correctly, Fenn stated one is a typo. I would surmise that the poem uses “answers” and would be considered over answer. I would also add… the question in the poem seems to be answered. Logically, imo, answer{S} is what should be noted.
      I would suggest a second look at the Question that was presented.

      • Thanks, Seeker.
        I didn’t know that Fenn said that it was a typo on his blog. But, why did he say it didn’t matter? It doesn’t add up

        • Mr. Fenn,

          After locating the Blaze in the poem by solving the clues, and having been led to the chest, I was disheartened to learn that there are two different versions of the poem. The version found on The Thrill of the Chase Resource page online shows:

          The answer I already know

          While the version published in your memoir reads:

          The answers I already know

          Based on the way the clues are solved to this point, it is obvious that every word and every letter are crucial. I was hoping you would be able to clarify which version of the poem is correct. Should the word answer have an S on the end to make it plural? Pehaps this one letter has no bearing on the final solution, but it is something that continually weighs on my mind.

          Hope all is well!

          Archie

          Archie,

          It makes no difference, one of them is only an innocent typo. You can pick which one. f

          IMO, it doesn’t make a difference because one is a typo… if you want to use the typo over the “Answers” in the poem… no problem.

        • ManOWar—— there is one aspect of the poem where “answer”vs “answers” really does matter. I noticed this once when I was studying the poem, using the “answers” version unwittingly.

          A word I had clearly seen in the poem was no longer there. When I went back to the “answer” version the word was there once again. I won’t go into further detail, except to say a dog wags one.

      • Seeker you said, “I would also add… the question in the poem seems to be answered.”

        Where is that question answered? I know you said seems to be answered, but that would be only in your opinion. So the answer is not answered.

        • So why is it I must go And leave my trove for all to seek? [ Question ends the sentence ].
          The answers I already know, I’ve done it tired, and now I’m weak. [ Commas usage is in a full sentence relating to the question ].

          I don’t believe it, so much a opinion, as it is a statement. The line literally states the answers I already know [ comma ] …
          Now the question is, what does tired and weak mean? If I attempted to answer those, that would be an opinion.

          • Seeker, are you saying that he must go and leave his trove for all to seek because he is tired and weak?

          • I’m saying he answered the question, by telling us the answers he already knows, … What the answers mean is a different story… something we probably should want to figure out.
            The again, if someone want to think the hunt is over in the 4 stanza… it makes no difference to what stanza 5 seems to imply.

            So I’ll ask you this… what does stanza 5 say to you?

          • ManOwar,

            I just went to the old SF trading co. web page. I haven’t been there is some time. I can’t seem to find “that” version of the poem… admittedly I just skimmed over the header pages.

            Where did you see the poem version you are talking about, because, it doesn’t seem to be on the site anymore.

          • Insert ‘collecting’ or ‘discovering’ for example. Or one of my personal favorites insert ‘wordsmithing’. Could that work?

          • Seeker~ Stanza 5, IMO is hinting at a location that is in stanza 4. All of the info in S5 are hints to the clues in S4.

            Yes, he already knows the answers. The question is directed to us, the searchers. He doesn’t need to answer his own questions. So why is it that he must go? Look to S4 there in lies the answers. The clues end in S4 and S5 & 6 provide hints. He said the clues are contiguous, the hints need not be.

            The physical hunt is over in S4 when you retrieve the chest, but to get there you need to find the hints in other stanzas, so you can’t ignore these stanzas because if you do you won’t get to the final physical location. “The Spot”.

          • I was guessing that stanza five was more of a legal statement, where he suggests others go “seek” his chest, and clearly (officially) states that he’s too tired and weak to do so himself, but has often publicised his desire for the bracelet to be returned to him or his family, and possibly giving title to the rest of its (TC) contents, as a reward.

            I suspect this also directly connects to that ‘special surprise’ for the finder, that Forrest can’t or won’t talk about.

          • Oz10,
            I see where you’re going with those.
            I lean to a place for the “answers”… maybe the place to start.
            Even then I still have a few places to consider. It also could be illness, just to add to your list.
            But I like the wordsmith part… it would say, dedication is needed if you want to solve the poem.
            ~ I looked up words and definition of words, and changed them, went back and rebooted… I’m very pleased the results are what I wanted… ~
            My only problem with that is… where does that leave stanza 6? I mean, why would cold, brave, and in the wood be needed to be known IF they are to be considered clues.

            This is why I think the possibility that, stanza 5 and 6 may tell where to start… leaving the “clues” still in consecutive order for ‘ finding ‘ the chest…. clues get you closer to the chest. Well, in one theory anyways.

          • A trove is a ‘collection of objects’ and I think most of us thought the very first time we read that line ‘well he is talking about the chest full of valuables’ but as it is obvious now these words in the poem are a collection of something (concepts, definitions, places even) that will reveal 9 hidden clues and those in turn will reveal one hidey spot.

            If I use that type of logic it tells me that when he says ‘the answers I already know’ means the 9 clues but if you can use it interchangeably with ‘answer’ in singular then all 9 turn into one. That was a full circle…

          • Seeker, you said: This is why I think the possibility that, stanza 5 and 6 may tell where to start…
            There is a big chance of that being correct even though it has been shot down many times by the wwwhalters, at least one comment from ff made me think of it, I forget which one now.
            Two lines here to consider: i’ve done it tired and now i’m weak and if you are brave and in the wood.

          • Oz10, ~ “Seeker, you said: This is why I think the possibility that, stanza 5 and 6 may tell where to start…
            There is a big chance of that being correct even though it has been shot down many times by the wwwhalters, at least one comment from ff made me think of it, I forget which one now.
            Two lines here to consider: i’ve done it tired and now i’m weak and if you are brave and in the wood.”
            { I posted your post, as this reply’s discussion, is starting to bounce all over the place }.
            The thing about wwwh, is there are many. IF we are to find the correct one, the poem should tell us which one, other wise it’s a dart throwing contest. So my thoughts go to how the poem can tell us which one is correct.
            Should wwwh be the first clue, and the next clue be canyon down etc. leaving 9 clues in consecutive order within the poem… it is more than possible that the poem tells us where to start and ‘find’ the correct wwwh out of the many possible locations.
            So if we can discover in the poem where to start to find the clues, is that ‘start’ an actual clue? or simply eliminating all the other wwwh?
            Knowing where to start is not going to find the chest per se, all it seems to do is tell us where the clues are.

            “There are hints in my book that will help you with the clues, but a clue will point you toward the treasure chest and a hint will just help you with the clues, if you can understand that.”

            …” a clue will point you towards the treasure chest…” and… “a hint will just help you with the clues, if you can understand that.”
            Could it be that, the “hint” mentioned in the poem relates to where to start? A type of correlation between new and old to tired and weak?

            “All the information” comment is imo, a very strong comment. But I think there is a separation to “information” to what a “clue” is.
            I personally can’t dismiss stanzas 1 5 6 as fillers and all that is needed are 9 lines of the poem.
            That’s just my analyzing opinion… I think we’re [ you and I ] are saying about the same thing.

          • “Me wearing the bracelet is your best revenge. f”

            is Forest maybe referring to the dreaded T[-edited-]ax-m[-heavy edited-]an? ..that so effectively evacuates our wallets of much needed cash, in a totally involuntary fashion?

            ..crazy wolf?
            🙂

        • I always thought “so why is it that I must go?” Is because he’s retiring from the luxury business.

          I’ve done it tired and now im weak- aka- I’ve done it tired and now I’m RE-tired.
          (Insert bad joke about chest being a spiritual 401K of sorts here)

        • In relation to the ‘answer vs. answers’ I always thought it had changed after he got better from his illness (one of his answers) but then I found the quote where he said it was just a typo.

          • Qz10~ I understand typo, okay. But before he said typo he said it didn’t matter. If it didn’t matter how could it not be what I wrote at 6:59pm. Why did he say it didn’t matter back then?

          • Zap~ I am taking Forrest at his word that is why I’m making this point which you don’t seem to understand.

            You say “It matters not one iota?” Ha!
            So you would rather have to find 5 answers than find one! Good luck!

          • ManOwar, I explained above how it could make sense, well at least to me. But if I take that stanza at face value then yes it should be plural.

      • “Answers”could be to the nine clues in the poem the ultimately give you your final “answer”

  49. Anyone know how much it would cost to rent WATSON? I think I need WATSON. Some of the comments are indecipherable.

  50. Man, I had a rough night last night. A couple of searchers for the treasure shared some of their ideas with me. I promised that I would not relay any of the information they provided. I actually swore on my mother’s grave.

    Later, I went to dinner with some friends, and the searcher came along. We went to a really nice Mexican restaurant. And right in the middle of dinner I spilled the beans. The searcher was furious with me for some reason.

    Then, only an hour later, I was helping a friend take a feline to the animal shelter. She had caught the kitty and placed it in a burlap sack. A searcher was in the car with us when I let the cat out of the bag. That searcher was also very angry with me.

    The rest of the night was very uneventful though. I’m thankful for that.

  51. Highway hole may be where it’s at if I only knew where it is or was.
    Don’t you just hate when you loan something to someone & their cell phone # no longer works?

    Now, I got no books & a phone number that hasn’t worked in a month.
    Anyone got an extra copy of the books they can give?
    Well, maybe the books saved his life.

    Can someone at least post a pic of the Highway hole, whatever that is, I don’t remember.

    • r u talking about the “burnt hole” that Osborne Russell mentioned?

      oh, and half the time, or more than that, if I’m spilling the beans, I don’t know it, because I don’t know nuthin.

      I’m in the “trying to figure things out” phase.

  52. Because the “CE5” thing has been coming up a lot recently, despite Forrest saying that it is just a part of his personal inventory and pricing system, I thought I’d share that it really is just a part of his personal inventory and pricing system. If you dig deep enough, you’ll find that there are other examples:

    https://web.archive.org/web/20070328225843/http://www.oldsantafetradingco.com/store/store.htm

    Note the “YE5”, indicating the price of $15,000.

    It is very unlikely that it’s anything other than what Forrest said it was.

    • LOL, I got a $1.50 that says within 6 months some searcher will somehow have YE5 become a clue , and / or 91 points will be important to hoB.
      On a side note; it seem that YE = 1000 and CE = 2000, with the 5 = 500. I wonder what letters and numbers fenn put on all the Items in the chest? Love to see that inventory sheet.

      • Yeah, I think it’d be fascinating to see as well. As far as a code goes, I’m not sure we can assume that YE5 equals $15,000 (the sales price). I think he mentioned that CE5 equals what he paid for the chest, so YE5 is probably what he paid for the bear. Capitalism being what it is, he probably paid less than what he’s selling it for.

        Having a reminder of what you paid for something makes sense when there’s not a fixed price on what you’re selling something for. You don’t want the buyer to know how low you’ll go, but you don’t want to forget what you paid for it either. So you write a small reminder someplace inconspicuous, like on the chest.

        Interestingly, maybe this means he at least considered selling the chest at some point. I dunno. I would kind of like to see his system.

        • I have a jewelry store client. They use a 2 word code with 5 letters in each word so that each letter represents a number. The code on the tag is the purchase price. They will give discounts, so it is imperative for them to know the purchase price when they are at the counter with clients.

        • Jeremy ~ “Interestingly, maybe this means he at least considered selling the chest at some point. I dunno. I would kind of like to see his system.”
          He did have the chest for a long time, so if something would to have happened, Peggy or family members would know the original cost.
          That, and sometimes old habits are hard to break… if it ain’t broke, don’t fix it type of thought.

    • Thanks spallies, I don’t remember seeing that before. I’m sure my coffee will be better tomorrow, too. I like when Forrest says to use “nadt” after his name, haha! Funny!

        • I can hear my husband asking me what I’m doing as I drag a ladder across the kitchen so I can climb up on the counter to have coffee. I’m kind of short, I would need a ladder.

          • So am I. I would also need to find something else to drink, being I don’t drink coffee.

            Gosh Jeannie, I’m imaging you dragging a ladder across the kitchen and seeing you do this. You’ve got me smiling. 🙂

        • Well, I agree with you on the HOB, however when you read the rest of the poem you have to put in below, as in the Gates of Lordore. But you must continue from there IMO.
          I am and always have been in Colorado.
          Highly agree with you on the secret hideouts!

    • http://cyberwest.com/v9adwst1/

      this location solves so much of the poem

      keep my secret where and hint of treasures new and old
      (secret hideout area for countless thieves)

      where warm waters halt
      (flaming gorge stops)

      and take it in the canyon DOWN
      (“gosling” Goslin Mountain Wildlife Management Area)

      put in below the home of brown
      (“put in” is actually used in the article”)
      (Browns Park National Wildlife Refuge)

      the end is ever drawing nigh
      (the road there ends on the left)

      no paddle of your creek
      (green river is strong- must go down stream)

      just heavy loads and water high
      (upstream on the green is the flaming gorge dam for heavy loads-electric and water high- the dam itself)

      wise and found the blaze
      (the gates of lodore- named for the famed poem the cataracts of lodore. The poem is a masterpiece of onomatopoeia, employing some of the most clever and evocative language ever used to describe a natural feature. When seen in its entire form, the body of the poem does look like a waterfall.)

      done it tired
      (drove there)

      hear me all and listen good
      (gates of lodore starts rapids so it gets loud)

      your efforts will be worth the cold
      (the green river is notoriously cold)

      brave and in the wood
      (brave to go where thieves/ crooks hung out and wood actually could mean “crazy”)

        • It’s the release from Flaming Gorge Dam that makes it cold now, at least in the reaches below the dam.

          There are warm-water fish in the lower Yampa, up to where it flows into the Green just below Lodore Canyon.

          • Well, in a word, yes.
            But IMO you’re on the right path or at least my path, or should I say time period.

      • Looks good except for one big problem, Forrest has said WWWH is not associated with a dam. That leaves out Flaming Gorge, at least the part (dam) that causes the Green River to be colder below.

        • I realize that… I am not associating it with the dam but the name of the gorge/ canyon: “flaming gorge”

          Flaming sounds pretty warm to me!

          • Perhaps you can look a bit to the east. You will find Highway 191 at the border of Wyoming below Minnies Gap. 191 goes from there to Rock Springs, WY. That short extension used to by Wyoming 373 (which also happens to be the boiling point in degrees Kelvin). That road is named “East Flaming Gorge Rd.”. So maybe he meant the road, and not the dam? Maybe WWWH’s at the Wyoming border near Browns Park Rd where old 373 ends.

            Also, up from there on the west is Firehold Canyon (3 of them) just north of Sage Creek. There is also a lookout with a sign labeled “Art Gallery of Time” that looks out over Firehole canyon towards Flaming Gorge right on the side of East Flaming Gorge Rd.

            A while back I was looking at the area near Rock Springs and it led me through FG Road. The sign is, if I remember correctly, just shy of 10 miles south near Firehole Canyon.

            Not sure if it will help you, but I am throwing it out there since it mihgt help you.

          • Wow- that’s a lot great information. I think it all sounds great except the kelvin temp you shared. I like the art gallery sign- if anything, it’s cool! Thanks for the great response!

          • If you consider warm water halting at an extreme besides cold/freezing, water boils at:

            373 Kelvin
            212 Farenheight (sp?)
            100 Celcius

            The extension (East Flaming Gorge Rd.) was also known as Wyoming 373 which went from the southern border of Utah/Wyoming up to Rt 80 in Rock Springs. It was renamed 191 sometime in the 80’s I think.

            AS you drive north from Utah you will pass Browns Park Rd Wyoming, go through Minnies Gap, then a while later past Sage Creek, then on your left will be that pull-out for “Art Gallery of Time” on your left right in the middle of 3 different Firehole Canyons about 1 mile north of Sage Creek.

            Incidentally, about 100 miles east of Minnies Gap is an old one room schoolhouse named “Dutch Joe Schoolhouse” (if I remember). That school house was once below Brown mountain off of Dutch Joe’s creek. It was moved east and is now in a museum grounds along with other historical cabins.

            I long time ago I was working on a solve, but it started up near Rock Springs and took me south on FLaming Gorge Rd. I forgot what attracted me to Rock Springs chase wise.

            WAY back I used to think Flaming Gorge Dam was WWWH, but since Utah was ruled out, I didn’t see much in CO along the Green River that seemed reasonable to me because you cannot even put into the Green River there without being approved. Then the whole area is protected (Dinosaur National Park), and Echo Park is really close to the border once again down by Steamboat Rock.

            Note: I personally feel that the chest is not on government property (state, local, or federal) and also not on Indian land. So if any of my solves lead me there as a final location, I shelve them. That may be to my detriment, but sobeit, I just don’t think Fenn would open that can of worms for legal reasons. I allow clues to be on such land, just not the chest itself 🙂

            Good luck

          • I like the echo park part too for hear me all and listen good.

            I think mr. Fenn is stubborn and obstinate at times. He doesn’t like being told what he can and can’t do. I think he put it in a place special to him- where ever it happened to be.

            That is where the brave part comes into play!

  53. Hopefully our Curious Hobbit is far enough north that the deadly 7.8 temblor that hit South Island, New Zealand last night only produced mild shaking for him. The quake struck just 11 minutes before the near-perigee, near-full Moon crossed the local meridian at the quake’s epicenter. There have been over a dozen aftershocks in the 9 hours since, some in the 6’s.

    • Hope curious hobbit is ok. My dog’s name is Frodo, so I hold a special place in my heart for hobbits and New Zealand 😉

  54. Speaking of “art galleries” in a recent post…today I visited The American Museum of Western Art in Denver, also known as the Anschutz Collection. And interestingly, right across the street from The Brown Palace. The collection holds a uniquely American style of art, and is displayed in a chronological order reflecting the rapid change in both the American West and the style and methods of the artists who were portraying the West. There are over 300 original paintings in this collection, including Fetchin, Leon Gaspard, Georgia O’Keefe, Gilbert Gaul, and Joseph Sharp to name a few. Many places we have visited in our searches and that FF has talked about (Taos Mountain, for example) are the subject of these beautiful paintings. Visit if you can. Well worth it, and to see the work of the artists that FF championed is an education in itself.

  55. Was thinking about walking distance and this comment, “A polite-like email from Kristie, who admits to being a desk person, prompts me to say that if you are walking long distances in search of the treasure, you’re walking too far.” f
    It seems to me that a long distance is needed for us to walk. If it’s “not far”, but “too far” to walk, then walking “too far” would be the answer. So, if you are walking long distances in search of the treasure, you’re walking “too far”, then you must figure you have a long walk. Because walking “too far” is the way to go. Not far, but too far. So, “too far” is a long distance. I’m guessing 5 miles one way, or 10 round trip.

    • Also, sense he is saying “walk”, why? Why not drive? Maybe no motorized vehicles are allowed. In this scenario, it would figure a “gate” of some sort would tell you that, or block off motorized travel. That sounds like the 3rd clue. A gate of some sort.

      • In TTOTC he talks about parking to leave the car the night before just inside the gate on the narrow strio of land that separates the government park land from the town of West Yellowstone then walking in in the morning before the gates were open since you couldn’t drive through at the time they liked to fish 😉 Back then the town might still have been named Boundary, though. I guess no harm in using the new names of things though…

      • Hi Charlie, Another alternative to motorized vehicles not being allowed: they might not even be possible or practical. They certainly aren’t in my solution. Forrest walked because he could drive no further, and the most sensible way to cover the remaining distance was on foot.

  56. For some reason I seem to get unsubscribed without my knowledge and then wonder what happened to the comments I have submitted. I think if you have figured out why this happens you may be well on your way to untangling the poem.
    Has anyone commented about the notion that warm waters halt when they evaporate? If so, this would be most evident at a warm or hot spring where you can see the water evaporate. I’ve also noticed that many of the searchers add the disclaimer that what they say is just their opinion, but that’s understood so I choose to throw my stuff at the wall and if it sticks, great. If not, I’ll throw more stuff against the wall. Loved the idea that there is a second map that needs to be found to follow. Thanks for all the great posts in your humble opinions 🙂

    • Hi Robert

      I suspect that whole ‘evaporation’ situation may have been considered already (highway 212, spurty geothermal bits, etc) but what did you have in mind?
      .. and have you considered a little reverse psychology to include a dormant geyser?

      (btw, apparently Watson is surprisingly cheap to rent – it’s just the huge delivery costs that.. well, you know)
      🙂

  57. This is not directed at anyone in particular and I could be off base but why does the word “solve” get misused so much on this forum? Solve is a verb, solution is a noun. I have a solve to this problem. Im going to solution the problem.

    • @Reiteri – you’re not alone on this. Welcome to the redneck chase where your grammar expertise might have an advantage.

    • Reiteri — you’re not alone. Using “solve” as a noun is obsolete, but it has gained obvious traction on hoD and elsewhere so perhaps it will get resurrected. I think it sounds ridiculous, but to better fit in here I have (mis)used it myself. Prior to TTOTC, I had *never* heard of this use of the word, and I’m pretty well-read.

    • Solve is a system of equations
      Solution is a means to solving a problem.
      That means, Ima gonna stick with ta rithmetic.

    • One could argue that it has to actually be a solution to the problem to be called a “solve” anyway 😉 No chest, no “solve”.

      • If you can’t make two trips from your car to your solve in several hours, then don’t go.

        So, is the “solve” fenn refers to the location of the chest? If so, does that imply certainty beforehand… aka; solve the poem prior to a search?
        It may also imply what close proximity to a human trail might be as well. While people can beat down grass creating an easier hike, not unlike an animal trail. Is a human trail a more permanent design?

        Now what really has me puzzled is the constant reference to two trips. Simple answer is carrying weight. A 40 -50 lb backpack for the hiking /camping enthusiast is the norm. [ taking in consideration over-night stays outdoors ].
        Could there be another reason for two trips we need to “plan” for…

        • If you can’t make two trips from your car to your solve in several hours, then don’t go.

          It does sound like in order to follow his instructions, we shall be able to measure this distance in a map from where the car will be to the spot where our solve will take us and then multiply by two as a buffer. If that is the case, then yes we should be able to be confident enough to know where we are, regardless of how many clues are on map or location.

          • Forrest Fenn was pretty adamant about saying the treasure is not “buried” but it could be in a cave without being buried. Anyone have any thoughts about this? Also, underground water is fairly abundant in the rockies. The deeper you go, the warmer it gets. Maybe we’re all aiming too high.

          • Oz10,
            Ok, why the need for two trips?
            * If you have a searching partner, best to have them wait in the car. f

            Fenn said he took two trips from the car to the hide… because of the total weight. [ almost too heavy for one man to lift ]

            * Having a good plan is the best plan.
            * The person that finds it, is going to be a person who thinks and PLANS and has an analytical mind and uses logic, not someone who has a hunch.

            At first, the two trips comment didn’t have much impact on me… it simply made sense… But these comments and others have me wondering. What is really involved with ‘Planning”? { do we really think fenn cares if we drive or fly }
            Is there a need to make two trips because of the solve?
            If you have a partner, wouldn’t it be logical for carrying out the chest and the contents, to bring them along?
            Or “is in there” a place that fenn went “alone” because he couldn’t do it any other way? {other than secrecy}
            Skip the maps for a moment, skip the poem for a moment. Let go of all your previous thoughts… Why is it, that fenn feels the chest will not be stumbled upon?

            * I’m not flippant about this. It’s not something somebody is going to be able to do on spring break or a Sunday afternoon picnic. I’m looking a hundred years down the road, maybe a thousand years down the road. People don’t understand that.

            T&E podcast approx 2:55…
            If you can find the treasure chest, it won’t be a big job for you to get it.

            What kind of “job” will it be? “to get it”

          • I absolutely agree with you and Jake, like how long will it take from Santa Fe to West Yellowstone? I’d say more than 4 hours but than again I don’t think to often and just my 2 cents!

        • Seeker,
          I honestly thought that he was telling us to plan and be careful to avoid getting lost out in the woods.

          Let’s say for example that we measure the distance from the car to where we suspect the chest is located and on foot it will be about 3 hours round trip. Then we should plan to get there early enough to make that round trip twice before nightfall, say by noon. Why?
          The younger searchers may only need one round trip to recover the chest but the oldest ones may need to do what he did and do 2 trips, one for the gold and one for the chest. Old or young, if we don’t find the chest the first time and think we missed a clue we can always allow ourselves extra time to go back and use a different approach while there, thus the second round trip.

          But let’s play with this idea for a second. If he didn’t say that for safety reasons and we really need to make two trips then, I can think of one example of how that could play out. If we arrive in the middle of a trail where some of the clues take us into the south path and at the end we find that the clues confirm we needed to be on the north path (mirror image), we will need to go back north, get the chest and then back to the car. Two trips.

          Another more silly reason will be that the car will need to stay at a place where there is a time restriction but not sure what that will be.

    • Webster Dictionary(1.00 / 1 vote)Rate this definition:

      Solve(verb)
      to explain; to resolve; to unfold; to clear up (what is obscure or difficult to be understood); to work out to a result or conclusion; as, to solve a doubt; to solve difficulties; to solve a problem

      Solve(noun)
      a solution; an explanation

  58. Reiteri,
    We searchers are following in the footsteps of F, who said, “nobody to my uncertain knowledge has analyzed one important possibility related to the winning solve.”
    Now, I must go back to try to solution the poem, so that I might someday have a winning solve.
    Geoff
    “Have flashlight, will travel”

  59. Stanza One simplified/rewrite (lol):

    Reclusely secluded in seclusion
    And with my seclusions secluded
    I can seclude my seclusion where
    And in clues to the seclusions resolutions

    • “Take some more tea,” the March Hare said to Alice, very earnestly.
      “I’ve had nothing yet,” Alice replied in an offended tone, “so I can’t take more.”
      “You mean you can’t take less,” said the Hatter: “it’s very easy to take more than nothing.”

    • “yes, we’ve made quite a few changes since you went crazy.”

      – Inspector Clouseau
      🙂

      • 🙂 . Really though. How many words in stanza one are variations of Seclude. It’s like stanza two and Ferry…

      • I’m not good at that cryptic stuff Jonesy (my brain’s way too small)
        🙂

        but if you search on GM for Winston, MO (Churchill wrote a book entitled “Alone”) which is very close to Canton (riches old and new) you’ll find a reference to Canyon ferry at the north end of the lake bit.

        (not suggesting a solve there – just a bit of fun maybe)

        • Not being cryptic, just a lot of words in stanza one mean secluded. That’s all.

          Is that anywhere near Browns Ferry or Devil’s Slide in MT? Sounds vaguely familiar….

        • well.. not far from Devils Slide Jonesy, but perhaps too far to walk – although, not an impossible distance to walk, but probably unfeasible to try.

          oh wait! ..why do I feel like I’m talking in circles?!

          ( ..I totally blame that lil’ girl from India, for my abundance of confusion – thanks a lot Jenny!)
          🙂

  60. So many things make me think of the treasure. Today at work I asked my Chinese co-worker to choose a letter of the alphabet that best describes her feelings. She said “the 15th letter is my favorite”.

    I said “Why “O” Ming?” As she began to answer I drifted off for some reason, and her voice faded in the background. Soon all I was thinking of were golden frogs and mirrors.

          • now look here E.C….I like Wendy’s….really, I do. I could have a Frosty every morning for breakfast and feel as though Id lived that day…. But chili? Now that is a line even I don’t cross….until noon, at least.

          • @SandyB – clever. I try to categorize words into a) clues related to the poem, like Soledad (imo), b) clues related to the general search state or area, like Chili, Truth or Consequences, Pie Town, (imo) and c) clues about hinting at how to translate, like words that are key, e.g. Chavez might = hint, for example.

            I’m not looking in Chili, but it’s definitely right up my allí (like the Spanish word for “there”, like Sloane’s painting he wants to leave in an alley, like the first 4 letters of alligator) … I’m just conforming to a mental model.

            In full transparency, I love Los Luceros as the first stanza because I’m obsessed with asterisks and blazes. Oh, and their history with a certain church related to Soledad. As I row my boat gently down the millennial river, I start to see things like lambs that are meek, estaca which turns out to be a pot of happiness, and a hint of a word that is also key, and lots of other fun things to think about.

            Just saying.

          • apparently chilis native word meant “cold, winter” or “lands end”…later it came o mean “pepper” makes me think of F’s ‘safety ring’ that threw the dogs off. i wonder if, as peppers, it somehow came from the white ‘ghost peppers’…but who knows, my train of thinking goes all over the place.

          • @SandyB – I forgot to mention the connection to Robert Redford with Los Luceros, and a few other things that when you research the area, you also might start to wonder.

          • @Jonesy1 – didn’t Fenn mention something about pimientos at one point? My memory is fading as the años tick by.

          • … and like the nearby alabaster caves which produce a marble called an “alley”.

            … for example.

          • Pimentos are a sort of berry, but in Scrapbook 49 I do think I recall him mentioning he was choosing to neglect mentioning that. Or maybe he forgot or something. In other musings he asked about Pimento Cheese sandwiches. Ive heard they taste best baked in the sun. I don’t know that anyone mentioned the sun as a recipe ingrediet…though many kids may feel it’s a necessity. If they’re in the cool kids club, that is.

          • @Jonesy1 – pimento (whitefolk): allspice… pimiento (rest of the world): pepper.

            Once again, Fenn does what Fenn does with words.

          • Funny, the Rio Chama (blaze in Portuguese) is almost the exact color of a Frosty…and we all know where that ends up.

          • @SandyB – perhaps everyone does know where the Chama ends up, but does everyone know its historical naming of Yuque Yunque? Yunque means “anvil”, and hence we have “found” a “blaze”.

          • In case there are people who aren’t grabbing what I’m throwing down… Yuque Yunque would be the “Y’s”… as in if you’ve been wise.

            A Yucca baccata is also called a banana yucca.

    • Passeridae

      that’s really funny 🙂

      I also asked my co-worker (Tana) about her thoughts on this whole ‘treasure’ malarkey, and she complained about it being in ARId ZONe A, or someplace dry, or something.. (I wasn’t listening tbh)

      I said to her “please don’t MOaN TANA.”

      (I’D A HOped that she coulda kinda been abit more helpful, sorta)
      ..anyhoo, gotta get back to my Texas solve..

    • you folks need a break….I’m crackin’ up, Everyone knows it’s in bus.
      the First Latter Seventh Day Roman Baptist Church of Fr. Brown.

    • @Sparrow – apologies, switch Hyla for Rana and you’re right up my allí. In a way, also Osborne Russel’s.

  61. an odd and end thought. I think there are multiple was to interpret most everything in life. Particularly words.

    As an example, “it’s not who you are that matters, it’s only matters who they think you are…”

    Some might read this as an oddly provactive statement of someone who enjoys tricking folks form a place of impure intent.

    Others, like me, might interpret this as a both recognition and resignation that folks tend to rush to judgement about others and decide who the think someone is (good/bad/etc.) when in reality, the person may be someone else completely; someone very misunderstood by others. A plea for “see me for who I am without judgement…” and leave each other alone unless it is to love and understand.

    All imo, but who Forrest is seems to be secondary to who people judge him to be. Judgement made by many who have never met him no less.

    Have you ever felt this way? How do you interpret that statement…it doesn’t matter who you are…

    Bonnie

    • To me it does matter who I am. Because people are so judgmental and can make someone feel bad about oneself. So you have to love yourself and no who you are. You can never please ever one.

      But I really like the light you have put on that statement, I had mixed feels on that one.
      I like the way you think and you have made that statement have a better meaning to me.

    • Bonnie,
      I can see what you’re saying. But lets use that comment as a possible hint for the poem… just for fun.
      First impression of the poem is, ‘fenn’ being the person talking in the first or self. Is that how the poem must be read?
      Or could it be; It’s not who I am, it’s who I can make you think I am?
      Of course some would call this a foul-ball because they would feel that it’s not straightforwards “enough.”
      Which imo, might be the illusion of word usages. We see what we want to see [ or in this case read ] and not so much the intent of the writer.
      Hence the reason for fenn might have wanted to use a poem to present the clues… freedom of word choices and their interpretations, and not always academically correct.

      “…It’s fun to make up words and play with different spellings. When someone calls me out after noticing the corruption of a word I use, I just smile, especially when I say something that in my mind is correct but in an academic sense it’s a horrible malfunction.”
      “…Write down the full definition of the word “several.” Then Google it and *** learn that many of us don’t fully understand some of the words we use every day.f ” ***

      Multiple Meanings of words and word usages is not always the Harvard dictionary definition.

      Just for fun…
       

      • Seeker,

        “It’s fun to make up words and play with different spellings…”

        Have you found any words that Forrest has made up or spelled different than they should be? I am always looking for them but other than “knowlege” and “flutterby” and this line from the Gold and More chapter where he misspells Columbia, it should be Colombia, I haven’t found any: “One of the prizes in my collection, a Tairona and Sinu Indian necklace from Columbia”

        Regards,

        Mark

        • @Mark in Taos – I have trouble locating the definition and etymology of “sniffering” on page 12, whereas the context of his use may have been intended with the Spanish translated form of “risa disimulada”.

        • @Mark – also he references Babe Ruth candy bars, but the correct brand name is Baby Ruth.

          • E.C., I have one better for you than ‘ojito’. Tarry scant with marvel gaze “don’t delay with amazement”

            Cebolla, NM (onion)

          • @Oz10 – help me connect, I’m missing it. How do you get onion from “don’t delay with amazement”? Is it because you’re having to peel the onion and because it has layers? Sorry. I’m too binary on languages, but I’m open to learning a different way to think.

          • EC,
            Cebolla, NM is part of Rio Arriba County (Water High) and if you look east you will see Canjilon Mountain. (heavy loads).

            ….in European Spanish a canjilon is an earthen jar for transporting and/or storing water, and they were sometimes used in tandem, tethered together with ropes, for elevating water from a source to an irrigation ditch, as in a waterwheel (noria).

            there, now you owe me some of that gold or I will send you a ‘maldicion’ until you do. lol…

          • See? Let’s get this thing solved in the next 2 months. I have stuff to do in 2017 and can’t be playing with this anymore.

          • E.C. just doesn’t want to have to mail me a hard biscuit for losing the bet about the chest not getting found this year. (Grin!)

        • Mark, a misspelled word is an attention grabber. While something like that can be a hint… I was suggesting word usages. Like fenn said; …that many of us don’t **fully understand** some of the words we use every day. [ lol even, every day to everyday].
          If we want to play with misspelling possibilities in the poem, one might be tarry to Terry. [ completely guessing for an example ]. We have Brown with capitalization so, could the answer we desire be Terry Brown? lol I doubt it. but again, that is an example.
          What about home? was it mean to be a house. or maybe an area of habitation? Could meek refer to their or they’ll and not so much using “there’ll” the way we think is it used in the poem. Again just examples. But who is meek referring to?

          Here is a serious question, what is the difference of I have to I’ve?
          99.% will say, there is none. Several would be wrong. [ several; more than the average ]
          Another example is brave; splendid in appearance, impressive, magnificent ~ literally. Who’d a thought…

          While brave is not misspelled. it certainly has been an eye catcher. Dontcha think?

          food for thought.

          • Don’t forget such “simple” words as tired and weak, effort and worth, as well as quickly and cold. The much talked about tarry and scant, as well as marvel and gaze. And don’t forget blaze and wood. Each and every one of these words has hidden meaning, or at least they do to me. Each and every one of these words, to me, are needed descriptors in unraveling the puzzle. Just my opinion – JDA

          • @JDA – in my world, I can summarize “tarry scant with marvel gaze” in a single word found on a map of NM: ¡Ojito!

            Speaking of simple words Fenn has used in TTOTC, have you ever translated the word “fraud” to Spanish using Google translate and perused the synonyms?

      • Mark in Taos: while there are very few misspellings in TTOTC, there are a number of punctuation errors (some of them clearly deliberate) and many cases of single words that have been broken into two words, missing hyphens, and so on. A sampling:

        Border’s on page 9 (deliberate error)
        book store on page 10 vs. bookstore
        checkout vs. check-out inconsistencies
        self confidence instead of self-confidence, pg. 13
        [An important error in “JUMP-STARTING THE LEARNING CURVE” that I won’t mention]
        cannon ball instead of cannonball
        clothes line instead of clothesline
        8:00 o’clock instead of 8:00 or 8 o’clock
        Babe Ruth instead of Baby Ruth
        loud speaker instead of loudspeaker (pg. 70)
        tooth brush instead of toothbrush (pg. 70)
        half way instead of halfway
        shock wave instead of shockwave (pg. 88)
        propeller driven instead of propeller-driven
        A colon that should be a semicolon in the caption on page 93 (probably an innocent mistake)
        wash cloths instead of washcloths (pg. 112)
        Missing hyphen in Häagen Dazs (pg. 113)
        Richard Wetherill spelled wrong twice on pg. 130
        Navaho instead of Navajo (pg. 130)
        The aforementioned Columbia instead of Colombia

        There are others, but these were the main ones that I could dig up quickly.

        • I am interested in these misspelling “aberrations” and when Forrest says stuff like this it is hard for me not to think there is something there:

          “For instance, emblazoned upon some of the bronze bells I’ve buried are the words, ‘Imagination is more important than knowlege.’ If I had spelled that last word correctly it would not have had the profundity of meaning I wanted. To misspell the word emphasized my point that having knowledge is, in fact, not as important as being resourceful. Also, when I make a mistake through ignorance that ploy gives me a degree of deniability that I routinely need.”

          He also used this misspelling of “knowlege” in SB114, the only place outside of a private conversation with Dal I can find mention of “don’t mess with my poem” or “messing with my poem”. Not sure why or what is emphasized in this SB by using “knowlege” but it makes me wonder:

          “That twist of knowlege always gave me an edge.”

          Another I find interesting is in SB107 when he says “write way” as opposed to “right way”:

          “And that’s not all, there’s always a write way to do something and a wrong one.”

          And I found the bent car frame word I couldn’t remember, it was “crean” from a Q&A on Jenny’s site:

          In your dictionary, what’s an aberration? ~Serge Teteblanche

          “I don’t have a dictionary but my personal definition is “Something different.” I like that word.

          When I was a kid there was a commonly used word. Crean, and it described the condition a car could get into when it ran into a ditch and the frame twisted a little, preventing the doors from opening. Modern autos are more sturdy so I guess that word was retired. I can’t find it anywhere now.f”

          • Consider for a moment that the word “Brown” has been intentionally misspelled. Then consider that you need another kind of map than Google Map. Consider you may need both. You may find yourself all the “wiser”.

  62. I guess this belongs here in this section.

    I sent the following link to FF a while back, maybe last year, I forget what his reply was but the video kind of reminds me of the Chase.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rk_sAHh9s08

    I sometimes wish it were possible to do that. Life is funny, you grow up in a hurry to become an adult, you live your adult life and when you get old you wish it could all start over again. Only the second time around you would know the places much better 🙂

    • The home that seemed so big and wonderful to me as a kid, was a tiny barely-basic bungalow 50 years later.

  63. Are you a Teacher zap?
    I did notice the “Wetherill” misspelling and wondered how that could be missed.
    I forgive him for the punctuation errors. I think FF did pretty well for a “D” student. 🙂

    (btw, there was a candy bar in Fenn’s youth named “Babe Ruth’s Home Run Bar”).

    • “Strangers move in and out of our lives, only to punctuate the moment with something useful, like a waiter or the paper boy.” — page 98.

      My senses suggest a “chico” should be explored. Otherwise why call out these two occupations specifically without prior context?

      • Well…(dont look in there!) FF was a paperboy in one story and Donnie resembled an untipped waiter in a certain photo …to the best of my uncertain recollection.

        • @SandyB – true, but if you are like me and work from the premise that My War For Me is a first cut at the treasure hints, and then later came TTOTC as an expanded form to include more and specific hints (like the poem as a map) for the friends and family, then if I focus solely on the content of My War For Me… I’m left with investigating why picking out those two occupations warranted expanding of additional words elsewhere into TTOTC.

          • Yes, indeed. Why did he choose those occupations to build his memoir and treasure hunt/map to the treasure around them? Indeed, a curiosity.

          • @SandyB – and so I propose exploration into the lexical token “chico” is worth further investigation as “paper boy” (specifically how he separated into two words what is accepted as one) and waiter (garzon/garçon) would then share a commonality.

          • Is this a “treasure hunt”? or just what we think it is.
            Information; convey or represent a particular arrangement or sequence…

            So, we have a poem that contains all the information… do we understand how to use that information?
            IMO. this is an ‘exploration’ moreover a treasure hunt ‘map’
            A map shows physical feature, but doesn’t explain what is seen from the perspective of the ‘information given us in the poem’. Or, what the significance of the clues are.

            Exploration; to learn about it… {please don’t take my example as needing google research} Exploring is an ‘action’ of learning something.

          • @Seeker – I think we agree on this. For me, “treasure” from the poem implies “thesaurus”. As such, my work focuses on words as matched to geographical features I can locate on one or more maps, present and past. This includes English, Spanish, Cleverish (synonyms, homonyms, and Fennonyms), and other eligible languages based on the information we have learned about Fenn over the past 6 years.

            Gotta say, on a map, I’m liking the Chama / Rio Grande junta (English: “meeting”, “board”; Cleverish: “a really big deal”). I like that the area was previously named “Yuque Yunque” (Cleverish: “if you are Y’s”), “Yunque” (English: “anvil”, Cleverish: “found”), and “Yuque” (Cleverish: “yucca” baccate like “grab every banana”), and of course, “Chama” (Portuguese: “blaze”). I suppose I should start adding my confirmation biases at this punto, while attempting to avoid all las trampas. 😉

        • EC,
          I see how you get the idea of “thesaurus”.
          Actually that might be a very good thought/explanation/interpretation for treasures as; important to one.
          And
          Riches; of knowledge; new and old as to, how he can keep his secret… hidden in the words possible usages. Hmm, The bicycle video just popped in my head.

          While I’m attempting to read the poem along these lines… I didn’t look at stanza one exactly that way.

          However, you and I simply disagree on the next approach. I don’t think another language or even the original language of a word is used… simply the word usages / meanings.
          But thanks for a new thought… or maybe better, a clarification of an old thought.

          It’s those idea others say, whisper, that make me go hmmmm!

          • @Seeker, now I’m worried for you. I’ve watched your logic over the years. You frequently make reasonable points that make me think, and you’re a frequent contributor to this site. But if I understand what you’re saying now, you are seem to be implying that Spanish words, definitions, synonyms, and homonyms aren’t really on your radar unless they are explicitly mentioned in the poem.

            If that’s the case, you’ve pretty much unnecessarily excluded most of New Mexico and a sizable amount of Colorado. These areas are “punctated”, virtually “littered”, with Spanish words. How are you ignoring these?

            Please forgive my feeble attempts to be clever. “Punctate” would be considered a Cleverish for “punctuate”. “Litter” would be an English synonym for “sedan”, what he told Bill he used to go into the mountains to hide the treasure chest.

          • EC,
            If you read my “unpopular” thread, you would see that NM and/or CO is not out of the running… It all depends on how the poem is read.

            My problem with another language is not about an area, as much as, the book and the poem’s language they were written in. Which would indicated that translations are not needed.
            I would also add, no special knowledge is needed…
            Latin ~ the root of most languages ~ will not assist in finding the chest etc.

            I could say the same for the French language, if we think about the Louisiana purchase that covered most on WY and MT.
            So, would translation of French automatically kick NM and CO out of the running?

            And hence my problem; I speek American, cuz me English sucks.
            So don’t worry about me finding the chest.

          • @Seeker – As it pertains the hunt, I can’t read a NM map in the same way I’d read a Yellowstone map without needing a Spanish to English translation. And if a good map is one of the prerequisites, well, it seems like you are over-filtering. Perhaps one of us is misinterpreting Fenn’s list that he intended by mentioning Latin and specialized knowledge.

          • EC,
            This is one of those times two searchers simply disagree. I mean, why Spanish? Why not an Native American language… maybe Apache, Comanche, Kiowa etc. indigenous to NM, with names of places in those languages. Maybe the problem is not, reading a NM map in the same way I’d read a Yellowstone map without needing a Spanish to English translation.
            But thinking the map needs names at all.
            I get why some think a map needs these… but, we have been told a comprehensive knowledge of geography might help. Why is looking at a map and ignoring names so hard to do? At some point in time, all maps were created by locations of water and land… names only add for convenience… which always seem to change over time. some times, over very short periods of time… Look at a North American map from 100 hundred years ago and match it up with any map of recent years.

            I guess, if we knew what time period fenn had in mind, that might help.

          • @Seeker “My problem with another language is not about an area, as much as, the book and the poem’s language they were written in. Which would indicated that translations are not needed.”

            Father on the Banco, page #119 TToTC. Banco is most definitely a Spanish word. Describing architecture. Oddly, Father is “sandwiched” between 2 tires. Don’t forget your flashlight. And maybe a few Oreos.

          • @Seeker: Why not an Native American language… maybe Apache, Comanche, Kiowa etc.

            Jicarilla = “little basket”. Canasta, anyone?

          • Speaking of maps, Seeker sez, “I guess, if we knew what time period fenn had in mind, that might help.”

            “The clues did not exist when I was a kid but most of the places the clues refer to did.”f

            Well, if “all” of the places the clues refer to can be found on a single map, it would seem that the map would need to be at least post-1930.

    • Hi Randawg: no, not a teacher, but a scientist. I think the spelling errors in TTOTC were deliberately inserted by Forrest. In his profession and with his fishing background he’s not likely to accidentally misspell Wetherill, caddis, Columbia or Navajo. And speaking of fishing, how come nobody has commented on the presumably deliberate error in the fishing saying in Flywater:

      “It is well said that ‘God subtracts from the allotted time of man, those hours spent fishing.'” ???

      This is the OPPOSITE of the actual saying, which probably dates back before the Babylonians, and goes something like this:

      “The gods do not deduct from man’s allotted span the hours spent in fishing.”

      Fenn has worded it in such a way that you ~think~ you know what he wrote, without realizing that he reversed the saying such that you’re penalized for all those hours you spent fishing. (grin)

      • That phrasing always troubled me too, Zap. There are several others in the book that are likewise twisted. I just chalked it up to something a little witty and a little arrogant… the way someone who feels smarter sometimes mocks someone he considers dumber, and thinks the dumber person won’t notice. I hope I am wrong. Maybe they are a filter test or challenge to some special audience of his. I don’t think they are hunt related.

      • @zaphod73491 – scientist and a Hitchhiker’s fan? No way. Are you into using computers to spot patterns or solve problems?

        I reprocessed through for NM the Flywater chapter a couple of days ago, and concluded (for my confirmation biases) that “allotted” was fitting into a NM theme for land grants, or “parcels”, but also that “mosca” was a potential transformation of interest. I spend less on combinatorial and contextual structure than I do primarily on lexical analysis. Maybe that’s my weakness.

      • OS2: I think Forrest puts these anomalies into the book (and his Scrapbooks) to see if people are paying attention. Forrest strikes me as a skeptic, and I mean that in the good way: take nothing for granted or at face value. As for the fishing quote specifically, I put it in the “very suspicious” category, without yet knowing what he’s hinting at. The precedent for me has already been set with the “A Farewell to Arms” error and the Border’s/Borders inconsistency. Both those errors were undeniable confirmation hints for me, so the fishing quote error makes me stand up and take notice.

        • Zap, recognizing, admiring Forrests dazzling array of talents, intellect, achievements, character, wit, knowledge, experience, etc…. is huge… maybe that’s “the big picture.” The hunt related bits are really small, IMO.

      • Zap, there is one of those instances on SB 46 where he says the bumper sticker for Mz Fashion read: “Practice Beauty & Random Acts of Pleasure” but the saying goes “Practice Random Acts of Kindness and Senseless Beauty”

        I think there is one of these ‘switched’ known ideas within the poem but I can’t tell for sure. Have you seen it?

        • Yep Oz, there is one for sure…Intent doesn’t change though…Line 11…The meaning behind the line is that this line by itself won’t help you solve your puzzle, more is needed…

          Add line 11 to line 12 for a single clue IMO…
          2 lines before the semicolon = one clue…
          2 lines after the semicolon = one clue…

          Of course I could be wrong too…You must decide for yourself…

  64. Random thought of the night…I’m certainly one to admit I’m slightly obsessed with the misspelled words. Given that….it just dawned on me that the words that appear to be correctly spelled could actually be misspellings of words whose misspellings happen to be other words. For example Brave could be misspelled Breve etc etc. It seems logical that if I entertain misspellings I should entertain them all….but my brain hates even the first taste of that. And no I’m not referring to just homonyms, just thinking there could be misspellings we don’t even notice.

    • @Jonesy1 – agreed from my perspective. It’s a puzzle, but also one that hasn’t yet been exhausted. Let’s get to work.

  65. When Forrest said creen instead of “careen”

    “crean” can be the third person of the verb “crear” (“ellos crean un hogar”/” they create a home”), or the other option, is to use “crean” in the imperative form of the verb “creer” that is “believe” (“crean en sus sueños” “believe in your dreams”).

    So it means believe or create… sort of like god? God created/ people believe in god?

    • Heidini: negative. IMHO, Spanish language knowledge has nothing to do with finding the chest. I am mystified why some searchers feel it does.

      • @Zap – perhaps because the word “Spanish” appears nine times in TTOTC, including a 17th century Spanish ring that appears in the box. And you can’t drive 66,000 links in New Mexico without running into at least one Spanish-named feature, including the first direction “north of Santa Fe”. It mystifies me why Spanish is being ignored by so many prominent searchers, but to each your own what you chose to crean.

        • E.C.—–

          On the Santa Fe Trading website blog is an article about finding “Spanish Artifacts in the Rockies”. Forrest tells of being in Wyoming and a truck pulling up with what looks to be stuff that the Conquistadors may have left. It is very interesting actually—I think you’re right—Spanish could have more to do with the poem than we think. Thanks,

          • To be more exact “Early Spanish artifacts in the Big Horn Mountains” is the article name—you can google it.

          • @Zap – I used to say that about Smalltalk devs. Now I reserve that level of mirth for SharePoint devs. My current toolkits include GATE and java, which is what allows me to expand into a Spanish thesaurus with stemming, like a soundex, so quickly.

            Fun word fact: stem = pie (the kind of pie when Fenn says “I put one foot down and step on it”); stem = log; stem = halt. All are Fennonyms.

          • Not sure if “mirth” translated correctly. Had I used a different version, like maybe “laughed big”, something similar to what Fenn said he did as he walking away from his spot, and something he anticipates the finder would do… Had I suggested “laughed big” and smashed that with my Spanish hammer, perhaps I’d see something like “se rió grande”. Three nails.

            Oh. “Why nails, you ask?” The French word for “nail” is “clou” (like clue). The Spanish word for “nail” is “clavo”, but also “clove”. Why would anyone need three cloves? Perhaps Scrapbook 49 can shed some light.

  66. Forrest Weekly words for November 18th, 2016 are as follows: *You will find no mildew in the treasure chest.

    So how can the chest be wet and not have mildew?

    Forrest said “mildew” not “mold”….. So I will post the factors mildew needs to grow and then you can decide maybe where “indulgence ” is hidden or if this is even a hint at all. I believe it is, at least to where my solves take me.

    Mildew requires certain factors to develop. Without any one of these, it cannot reproduce and grow. The requirements are a food source (any organic material), sufficient ambient moisture (a relative humidity of between 62 and 93 percent), and reasonable warmth (77 °F (25 °C) to 88 °F (31 °C) is optimal, but some grown can occur anywhere between freezing and 95 °F (35 °C)). Slightly acidic conditions are also preferred.[5] At warmer temperatures, air is able to hold a greater volume of water; as air temperatures drop, so does the ability of air to hold moisture, which then tends to condense on cool surfaces. This can work to bring moisture onto surfaces where mildew is then likely to grow (such as an exterior wall). Preventing the growth of mildew requires a balance between moisture and temperature either in such a way that minimal moisture is available in the air and the air temperature is low enough to inhibit growth (at or below 70 °F (21 °C) without causing condensation to occur, or by in such a way that warmer air temperatures, without an actual change in the amount of water vapor in that air, is by its nature “drier” (has a lower relative humidity) than cooler air and will tend to inhibit mildew growth in this way. Warm temperatures coupled with high relative humidity set the stage for mildew growth. Food for thought Bur

    • Good report Bur, but I will say I live in Washington state on the west side of the Cascade Mountains and I know here mildew will grow on any type of material. But I know any where or anything out here that gets alot of sun, does not get mildew growth.
      Mildew likes cool, damp and dark.

    • Scrapbook 106, in my interpretation, implies NM is where the treasure is hidden. In SB106, I believe Fenn is pointing out NM place names, like La Mojada which would be the hat of La Bajada (the descent). It kind of makes sense for a place name as one transitions from what is arid into what is grazeable. Moho is mildew, but also rust. Mojada is wet. If the treasure is “wet”, perhaps it’s near something with a place name like “mojado”, and not actually wet. The place names in this post happen to be southwest of Santa Fe, so they are ineligible, but there are others in the zone.

      Fenn talks about “descending” down the iron fire escape through a window (La Ventana), marking his britches with rust. He says he did this during Spanish class. And since SB106 is about “personality”, or “charm”, perhaps it’s also about the Land of Enchantment.

  67. Take a flashlight and a sandwich.

    IMO. Take a Montague flash,light weight rod and a club sandwich fly.

    Just an idea I haven’t seen mentioned.

    • Definitely looks “blazee”. Could it be a reflection of one part of the very long array of radio telescopes? Very interesting, though. Nice catch!

      • It’s not part of the radio telescope system as I thought earlier. Still may be a reflection of a dish that may be in the area. Could it be Forrest saw it from his plane?

    • If you look at it in earlier pics (historical view) it just looks like a round pond, pretty weird with the angle the sun is in this pic that it would reflect like that, I am not sure what is up with it…

      • Just checked out the older snapshots Mark.
        I see some trails leading to the well, or whatever it is.
        There is a grouping of logs or debris to the S.S East of the pond not too far away shaped in a circle.

        • What do you think is making that reflection in the latest pic Jake? It’s pretty weird. Probably some logical explanation but then again it is in New Mexico, maybe a cow is getting mutilated by a UFO lol…

          • From looking a little closer, I can see the cows being intricately sliced by lasers & the collection of organs.

            All kidding aside. The sun is from the East when the pic was taken from the camera in the West approximately 90 deg total would explain this.

            I would also have to conclude this is a spring or pond and is used by horses or other animals to get a drink.
            I can see where the overflow runs down hill from the south.

          • Notice that the trees are “leaning” eastward due to parallax (meaning the camera is west of them), and the tree shadows indicate the sun is in the east, lined up perfectly with the parallax “lean”. These combine to suggest it is a freak reflection of the sun on the pond/stock tank.

          • Look quickly down your quest to cease. A question comes to mind. In which direction am I flying when I see the blaze?

            Also Mark in Taos you are looking in my solving target area. Banco Julian Brazos Ridge good fishing up there is spectacular country. Diablo creek!

  68. @WY Girl – the fastest path to see more vitriol is to post a reasonable solution (or even a partial) that doesn’t align with the philosophies of a few of the more vocal. Or present a contrapunto to their logic. Every once in a while a lurker or two of the same ilk will surface. Sportsman-like conduct goes out the window and is replaced by juvenile arrogance and pride, followed by condescending remarks about intelligence, logic, or personal attacks. It’s been present since at least the NBC clues started to raise more national and international awareness, and just after more people than Dal started posting their search attempts. I doubt it will change.

  69. You and your friend are in my thoughts. You are a reasonable person who cares for animals. Regarding treasure maps…
    In an earlier post somewhere I suggest folks might want to consider FF’s use of misspelled words. I also suggested another type of “map”. I researched some words on another kind of map and I’m offering them to all. The spellings here are all correct despite being “incorrect” at first blush. Here ya go:
    BBRWN
    WISER
    PADDL
    RANBW
    WOODS
    YLSTN
    PNYON
    XMRKS
    BSAFE
    GLITR
    JEWLS

    If anyone wants to work with an old guy let me know and I will offer more.
    I did not get these words from GE or GM.

    • R Miller, seems like I read somewhere that you were more the armchair searcher type. I am worried that if I provided you w/ something useful you’d bolt for hills.
      How far are you from the Rockies, and have you (or anyone you know) ever played canasta?

      • Well, I am in eastern Michigan. No chance I am going to head for the hills anytime soon. So, I throwing my hopes to anyone who is out there willing to cut me in on the stash. I am currently a semi-retired adjunct prof of communication and have a minor in Geography as an undergrad. I am one of the people that rescued Thor Heyerdahl in 1969 on Expedition RA I. Subsequently, I was asked to assist in RA II in 1970. I only mention this to give you an idea of my age.
        Tell me your thoughts!

        • Robert– That’s fascinating. One of my favorite books to read when I was younger was “Kon-Tiki” about Thor Heyerdahl’s journey on the raft across the Pacific. Great Non-fiction book. He also lived alone on an island for a year.

          He puts all those reality show “survivors” to shame. It must have been an honor to meet that great Norwegian adventurer!

          • Sparrow, my time with Heyerdahl over two years was the time o my life and I still maintain contact with his daughter,Marion Heryerdahl. Meanwhile, back to the chase. I like Colorado for some reason. Any thoughts?

          • Robert— very well could be. The golden horse was buried in Tennessee Pass, Colorado. It would be amazing if this famous Treasure was also buried in that state. I’m partial to Wyoming myself. 🙂

      • I will give you the hint at what Robert is talking about

        Look up the terms SID / STAR Arrival Departure Airport

        Basically airports have proceedures documented on maps that you can find on line. Some of them are named (such as YLSTN is an arrival:
        http://flightaware.com/resources/airport/KBIL/STAR/YLSTN+ONE+(RNAV)
        .

        Last week I posted that one of my theories is that the poem is a flight path. It almost reads like one.

        There is also an entire highway system in the sky, and they too are named. On a commercial plane they can enter a SID or STAR name into the FMS, and the plane will know what points to fly to execute that pattern. If you don’t have such a computer on board, you can download the map and follow the points. They are indicated, along with the vectors to follow, the altitude rate at which you should ascend/descend, obstacles such as water towers (water high), power lines (heavy loads).

        If you take those maps and position them correctly in GE, and adjust the opacity down, you can even see the flight patterns and look for clues on the satellite image.

      • Indeed! I like looking at the sky. VOR/DME is found the right maps.
        When flying in the Caribbean many years ago most VOR’S lacked DME….
        What I have posted are aircraft intersections. It may be useful as a tool or could even be useless.

        • Right,

          Lets also not forget how many times Forrest has hinted at STARS (for example his wife watching Dancing with the Stars). People associate that with astronomy, but “what if” he is talking about SIDS and STARS in aviation?

          You know what I mean, you are a pilot.

          Navaids exist and are named. They are part of the virtual highway system in the sky. SIDS and STARS ecompass a group of these navaids under one name.

          What if the first two clues describe an airport approach plate, SID or STAR? Lets say that STAR takes you to a major airport in Utah. But instead of following the chart as it exists, we apply the poem clues to the navaid reference names and adjust our course accordingly. What if we had the name of 2 navaids and formed radials from them using the poem (say we are at hoB, he says from there it is no place for the meek. so maybe we intercept a radial coming from a navaid named “BRAVE” or “BOLD”.

          To date, I have not seen a single person suggest doing this. Are we forgetting something obvious, like Fenn was a pilot for over 50 years! It would make sense that he is aasking us to use our imagination, because most people cannot fly, right?

          Some may say its too complicated. but why is that? If we were looking for a sunken ship, would we not be using water based navigation, maybe check for weather to see if the ship might have deviated from its course and sunk in a storm? That isn’t complicated, one should not look to the ocean for shipwrecks if they cannot navigate the seas, so why should we not look into the possibilty of airborne navigation aids when the chest was hidden by a pilot who flew since the early 1950’s up until he sold his plane in 2002?

          The man spent a huge chapter talking about flying in a war, about flying over that special waterfall/French grave, teaching people to fly, he flew to places to get artifacts.

          It is very possible that his poem is meant to take us on an expidition where we fly a course he plotted with the poem by altering the couarse of some flight plan.

          He also I think said that getting coordinates to the chest might not be possible. I doubt the chest moves, but what does move? The poles move and cause magnetic deviation. Navaids are adjusted for this deviation, a chart created 15 years ago may no longer reflect the real world because the radials shifted with the poles and the chart is out dated.

          This is only way he can get us to walk to an X with precision and confidence. With only two points decoded we can calculate an intercept. When we fly and hit that point, we look qucikly down and that is where the chest is. Note your position (longitude and latitude), no time to waste with a marvel gaze, land the plane, and go to that spot, take the chest and go in peace. There are no human made trails within close proximity because the trails are virtual and in the sky above. They are used daily by all planes especially up at cruise altitude.

          Of course this is only my opinion, I cannot confirm anything. But it sure as heck is a possibility and it would explain why all 9 clues do not seem to point to an exact position, we are looking at GE maps, not maps of the highway in the sky that has names for many points where the same points are not named on a ground map.

          It was a risk posting this info over the past week or two, but honestly due to my condition and finances I can’t make many trips. Although I did not post a solve, It does not bother me if it helps someone else find the chest. I would hope they’d send me 50 or 100k 🙂 but it is fine with me either way.

          I am pretty sure I already have the points figured out, but last time I was there (this past September, just before FF posted the new scrapbook chest picture) I did not find it, and I think its because I forgot about the magnetic deviation and I was miles off as a result.

          FF knows where I was, he also knows about me thinking it has to do with flight. I’ve mailed him many times over the past 2+ years, but back in August I was sure I was onto something and I sent him almost daily emails. Of course he never responded to the ones that had solve related info in it, I didn’t expect him to, but for the first time ever I had MAJOR confidence.

          This is going to sound strange but back in July I won a contest Jenny had. As a surprise she sent me an artifact that Forrest himself dug up, along with a picture and a paper FF signed (for her, not me, he didn’t send it to me) as proof of where it came from. It was cool, it was unexpected to win, she never announced a prize! This is very strange, but I swear since I had that thing in my posession, my luck has went for the good, especially with the chase. In addition, one of my health issues is Diabetes. My BG levels were well over 300, sometimes over 400 in the coma danger area. I did not change my diet, my excersize, or my insulin dosages or any other medications. My BG levels since August have dropped down to the 120 – 225 range for the first time in 8 years! I am not supersticious, but I don’t know what to say about it. I will never sell the artifact though, its probably only worth a few bucks, maybe a few hundred with Fenns name, but it will never be sold. It is in a safe! LOL

          I wish everyone good luck on the Chase, try to keep an open mind. Who knows, maybe flying can be applied to some other sovle. No matter what, I feel pretty darn strong that you need “the right map”, and the “right map” is not a US atlas, terrain map, or GE.

          Peace

          • http://mysteriouswritings.com/questions-with-forrest/

            Question posted 6/27/2014:

            Is any specialized knowledge required to find the treasure? For instance, something learned during your time in the military, or from a lifetime of fly fishing? Or do you really expect any ordinary average person without your background to be able to correctly interpret the clues in the poem? ~mdavis19

            No specialized knowledge is required mdavis19, and I have no expectations. My Thrill of the Chase book is enough to lead an average person to the treasure.f

            Good Luck to Ya, Wy!!!

          • That isn’t specialized info loco, it is no different than learning how to read any other map such as topography or even a road map. The charts and how to look at them is easily and readily available, I think at best it will take a couple hours to learn it.

            This has nothing to do with knowing how to fly. And its a lot less complicated than doing Spanish translations, biblical quotes, etc.

            Thanks for the feedback 🙂 Truth be told nobody will know except the person who finds it.

          • Wy,
            “Some searchers overrate the complexity of the search. Knowing about head pressures, foot pounds, acre feet, bible verses, Latin, cubic inches, icons, fonts, charts, graphs, formulas, curved lines, magnetic variation, codes, depth meters, riddles, drones or ciphers, will not assist anyone to the treasure location, although those things have been offered as positive solutions. Excellent research materials are TTOTC, Google Earth, and/or a good map.” f

            So, you’re using charts, graphs & talked about magnetic deviation.
            I think you’re over complicating it & would have to say it is special knowledge for a pilot needed to to navigate or fly.

            Not everyone has a pilot license so it is special.

          • I like your analysis, WY. Anyone can look at a sectional map and see possible hints and clues. No flying skills required. But, you may find it useful as a tool in figuring out some of the pieces. I haven’t enough pieces to go with confidence so I just throw some things at that may be of help. I’d like to work with someone who is able with BOTG. A piece of something is worth more than a 100% of nothing. There are a lot of invisible things in the air over the Rocky Mountains. Some of them may point to a special hiding place.

          • By the way, I never flew a plane (except virtually), was never in the military, and only have a high school GED from 35 years ago when I went back to school to get it.

          • I feel he gave coordinates already so to speak. There already is an x marks the spot. I think it’s in the book.

  70. If the clues do not lead you to an error free occlusion then you’ll know you are wrong for the clues are so exact the is no way to be wrong. My opinion of course.RC.

  71. If the searcher is chasing the chase she or he will go back home empty handed, but if they are chasing the retreat or withdrawal their odds skyrocket. My opinion and opinion only.RC

  72. For any out there who finds their ideas criticized by others (or even by me), favor these words from Byron instead:

    As soon
    Seek roses in December, ice in June,
    Hope constancy in wind, or corn in chaff;
    Believe a woman or an epitaph,
    Or any other thing that’s false, before
    You trust in critics, who themselves are sore.

  73. So if I may be allowed to continue on the Spanish rant for just a moment…

    I was curious about “why paper boy” and “why waiter”? At the behest of a couple of other searchers claiming to be way “in the know”, I’ve started rereading TTOTC over and over slowly. And while I haven’t achieved their level of enlightenment, I noticed a few reasons to look at the word “camera”. Anyone else out there looking at “why camera”?

    According to google definitions, “biddy” probably originated with Irish “maids”. Maids and waiters seem to translate to camerera / camerero. The only reason I mention this is because of my *theory* that My War For Me is the first cut. Here he mentioned grabbing his Minox camera before punching out. Standard procedure?

    So “camera” has another meaning: chamber or round building. The only round building I’ve come across within any significant search area is at Ojo Caliente.

    I’m still trying to link something to the Negrito Pygmies photo, if not just Spanish negrita means “bold”. Also, John Dunn’s story seems familiar, if not only that he has his own bridge on the Rio Grande near Taos and his last name translates to “Brown”.

    • E.C. Waters – I commend you for going back through the book. Above you mentioned “biddy”. There are two instances in the book where f mentions biddies. One of them is Important and is connected to some other things in that chapter. If you can discover all the instances in that chapter that are similar it would be good to place it in your back pocket for a later date.

      After my first solve, which will be posted before long, I had to make some major adjustments to the way I was trying to figure out the chase. At the time I thought I had some pretty clever ideas and some were, however they weren’t supported by the poem and the book. Some of f’s mistakes in the book are very, very subtle but they are huge for making you feel confident after you figure out the clues in the poem.

      • @Hear me all – ok, so let’s assume you’re talking about the known “Farewell to Arms” vs “For Whom the Bell Tolls” switcheroo as the big mistake. It’s been discussed here a bit already by other searchers. But if Spanish is out of the question, then I should ignore my thoughts about Rio Brazos, 42 miles, and how it converges with Rio Chama (blaze) and eventually Rio Grande at Yuque Yunque (if you’ve been y’s and “found” the “blaze”).

        I dunno, HMA, I’m not really following your logic if it’s different than mine, but I clearly don’t see how the first stanza links to the Hemingway “aberration”.

        • If we wanted to “E.C. Waters” this a bit further, one could build a case around the linkage of Farewell to Arms and Rio Brazos (sorry, Spanish for “arms”) also being linked to the source of Rio Brazos, such that “Tusas” translates (sorry haters, in Spanish) to “your”. And the true source of Farewell to Arms, George Peele (see “paddle” and “peel” definitions), would then provide no “paddle” up “your” creek.

        • E.C. Waters – You didn’t follow what I was trying to say and I take the blame for that.

          You mentioned biddy. I then said there are 2 times that f talks about biddies in the book and one of them is Important. One instance is the chapter No Place For Biddies and the other instance is located in Important Literature. In Important Literature, you may notice *borderline* biddies. Since this has been put on HOD before by another searcher, I will lay it out again. There is a reason for f mentioning borderline, Border’s, and Borders all in the same chapter.

          Hopefully that makes it a little more clear.

          • It does to me, and I agree. A “Border” or Boundary plays a very important role in the chase. At least it does to me. JDA

          • Ok, Four Corners? Orilla Verde? I can see connections to orilla with banco, border, hem, and balding, but I’m still not connecting the first stanza to any of these. Sorry, bruh. It looks like I’ll need someone to spell it out for me.

          • E.C.;

            For me, “The end is ever drawing nigh…” One definition of “end” = Boundary or border. For me, “ever” was also important. Ever = more than once, therefore the END or boundary will be getting close more than once. For me, I encountered three “Boundaries” before I came to the right one…where the treasure lies, almost exactly on a boundary.

            Just my opinion. JDA

          • E.C. Waters – IMO you should tuck the “borders” in your back pocket for a bit until you can see the poem.

            Also, have you noticed that f repeatedly made mistakes in TTOTC? He does it on purpose. It’s not because he barely made it through school but for another reason. Mistakes not errors as f would say.

    • @Os10 – right, so I was willing to entertain it for a moment until I realized you offered no foundation for your wtf.

      So, yeah. I’m not following your logic unless it’s intended as a joke.

      • EC, did you mean OS2?…. you seem strung very tight tonight…

        biddies > Irish maids > camerera ….. ok
        in MWFM > he had a camera…… ok
        camera > circular building > Ojo Caliente …. ok

        How does a biddie/maid/waitress become a camera? or a circular building?
        Your flow chart has a vertical challenge …… but maybe it’s just me.

        My wit is usually lukewarm droll with a foundation on sand.

        • @OS2 – ok, I might be strung pretty tight.

          Use google translate:
          – English word waiter translates into
          – Spanish word camarero
          – English word maid translates into
          – Spanish word camarera

          You may need to click on the extra link to expand into more than just the default translation so you can see synonyms.

          • Ok, synonyms…. I had google-translated camarera, but I hadn’t google- synonymed it … I’ll try it and see how a camarera becomes a camera (other than by dropping a few vowels) and how that camarera then becomes a building. I’m kinda old-school though and don’t put up with foolishness except my own
            .

          • @OS2 – “camarera” to “camera” is something I call a “Fennonym”, and I don’t rule it out as a possibility. Not a synonym, not quite a homonym. Uniquely Fenn (and I’ll admit it could just be a stretch of my imagination).

          • Glad you clarified, because I can’t find “the extra link to expand”….maybe due to the Greek dinner I just finished along with about 1/2 bottle of retsina. Opa,

  74. JDA,
    I’m taking a sec to sneak online amid my other responsibilities to respond to a post you made yesterday that touched my heart. You said my little dog was in your thoughts and prayers. Thank you so much for that. I just wanted to update you that I think she’s gonna be ok. It doesn’t appear that she had a stone just something minor that was causing pain. So for now she is still with us and doing fine. So thanks again!

    As far as the chase goes, you better watch out buddy, cause I think I’m gonna beat you to the chest! I think I know what the solution is and I’m pretty confident. Almost ready to make a bet with you. I’m not being flippant about this or taking it for granted. This is an amazing opportunity that f has given us!! Just gotta get my ducks in a row.

    Probably won’t be able to make it back on line until Monday so I may not see your response today. But I’ll see if your online Monday and we can chat.

    Cheers! Wahaha…..

    • Glad to hear that your “puppy” is doing OK.

      Glad to hear that I have a bit of competition. I know you were from Wyoming, but that you left. Is your search area Wyoming though?

      What a beautiful state. Mountains galore. Are you aware that there are over 127 different mountain ranges that are between 5,000′ and 10,200′ in Wyoming? WOW!

      Good luck to you in your search. We could make a bet any time you are ready 🙂 JDA

  75. Does anyone remember back when Carson would say “now why don’t you look THAT up in your Funk and Wagnalls!?”
    I don’t know why I was just thinking about that but sometimes I secretly want to steal the quotation and use the one-liner as if it were my own.

  76. In effort of ‘full circle’ posting, if you’re interested, look ‘Widows Mite’ up in Funk and Wagnalls publishings….then proceed back to comment one 😉

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