The Nine Clues…Part Seventy

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This is the place to discuss the nine clues…For instance:
What are the nine clues…
Is the first clue “Begin it where warm waters halt” ?

661 thoughts on “The Nine Clues…Part Seventy

  1. At first I didn’t think the 9 clues in the poem were deliberately placed & Forrest didn’t count the clues till after he wrote the poem but he worked on it for 15 years.

    Maybe the final count was after the 15 years & the count changed many times in 15 years.

    We know from he said that the hints in TTOTC are not deliberately placed & this book wrote itself. Obviously the poem did not write itself seeing the time it took to write the book.

    I would say that the clues in the poem were deliberately placed to aid the searcher but I also think the poem tells a story just like the book(s).

    • Jake…somewhere I believe Forrest said that he did not plan on nine clues being in the poem…that’s just how it turned out. Someone(maybe seeker) remembers the quote.
      But, what you just wrote I just shared a day or so ago because I was thinking the same thing. Maybe the number changed many times….

      • I think we can say for sure he knew where the last clue was going to be (where he hid the treasure).

        I would have to think his next step would be to have a starting point that would be a special place just like the last & then fill in the middle that would lead you to the treasure. So in a sense he was working from the end to the beginning, then filling it in with other special places.

        Guessing again, the clues that have changed are in the middle.

        • It may seem that the last clue is the hidey spot to many. I believe that some folks think there is more to it after locating the treasure.
          It is the beginning that is the stumbling block that has been the toughest to pinpoint. Some believe there is crucial info in the 1st stanza that may be a clue in itself. Or maybe two. Others skip the first stanza(as a lead in or preface) and head right on to “Begin it…” as the first clue. I have been in both camps, and continue to base my solve accordingly. The area of interest in my solve supports both suppositions if I look at the big picture. My search area decreases if I use the 1st stanza as the first clue and so on. To support this, my solve is visual in nature in terms of how I have interpreted the first stanza. The 2nd stanza in my solve, is visual and directional, and contains more than one clue. Being in the middle is probably where Forrest made the most changes in his poem(maybe similar to his life in general). My ending is ever evolving and it is subject to change as I change up my visual interpretation of his poem. Beginning to end…and ending to beginning.

          • I would have to say the hidey spot is very close to the last clue, it would make sense considering the 12′ statement.

            As far as the beginning being the stumbling block, I don’t think that statement is valid considering may have found the 1st 2 clues.

            The real stumbling block seems to be after the 1st 2 clues.

            ken says: “To support this, my solve is visual in nature in terms of how I have interpreted the first stanza”

            I would hope we all visualize when it comes to imagination & there is no support for this.

            I agree, you should be able to visualize your solve to a certain point but then you have to put BOTG eventually IMO.

            “Read the blogs for entertainment, and the poem like you were going to put an X on a map.”
            Hmmm, maybe the poem is a map…..

          • Hey Ken
            Your right in a seance, If there is 9 clues as f has said then they should all have something to do with the 9 sentences that make up the 6 stanzas. 1st. stanza = 1 clue, 2nd = 2 clues, 3rd = 1 clue, 4th = 1 clue, 5th = 2 clues, 6th 2 clues. Total 9 clues. Makes seance ( maybe ) not for me. To me, the beginning of stanza 2 told me where the wwwh is but I do not use that for the 2nd clue, I use it for the 1st clue and then so on…
            This is just me, my opinion and no body else. So what do you think???
            Timothy…IMHO

          • The hidey spot I agree is close to the last clue Jake, in my way of seeing things. My meaning of “visual” in nature was not exactly what I meant. A better explanation would be that my interpretation of the first stanza paints a picture that I can see on the map, which gives me a starting point to apply the next clues in the second stanza and so on. I take note of Forrest stating that you will not know if you have the first clue until you find the treasure. That tells me that the first clue may not be the obvious, or what everyone thinks. As far as “many have found the 1st 2 clues”…I find that statement ambiguous at best. He has mostly followed that with “and they did not know it”. Or did not know it’s significance(the place). So, sure, they(whoever that is) identified A location, but, did they convey to Forrest that they(whoever that is) identify that place as the first two clues in their solve. I have not seen him write or say that someone has said to him” these are my first two clues” and he has announced that they were right. Many have shoved their solves in his mail to read and their 7th and 8th may just be the 1st 2. He could then say “someone identified the 1st2 and not be fibbing…
            And finally…BOTG is a no brainer! But I suggest having a really good plan before heading out on a hunch…

    • Hi Jake: I’m likely beating a dead horse here, but I think that the hints in TTOTC are most assuredly deliberately placed by Forrest. But they weren’t placed to aid in solving clues–they were put in to *confirm* the solutions of clues. So they weren’t placed to aid the *seeker* but rather to aid the correct solvers.

      • ZAP,
        Man it just hit me. I was just sitting here saying the poem over and over to my self, when BOOM it me. I jumped up and freaked out my wife and said I think I got it. I ran down stairs and grapped a copy of my poem. I think I know the answer to the first clue. Because of the key word that unlocked the poem for me. I got that holy moly kind of a moment and slapped head. I get how the poem is written and how to go about finding the clues.
        Even if I don’t have the first clue at least I have the title to the gold.
        Thanks for help buddy.

      • Yes zap, the horse has been bludgeoned.
        I think he was just writing stories about his life & obviously there are going to be hints about the treasure or poem in there.

        I don’t think, when he was writing it, he said to himself, let me put a hint here in this paragraph or phrase or story.

        Don’t kid yourself, there are no *confirmations* if you do not have the chest……

        • Hi Jake — the level of coincidence that would be required for the items I’ve found in the book to NOT be confirming hints is simply too high.

          “I don’t think, when he was writing it, he said to himself, let me put a hint here in this paragraph or phase of the story.”

          And yet, that is exactly what he did (in my opinion, naturally). Anyone who has solved the first clue will see it too. He sprinkled a lot of hints for that first clue in TTOTC, perhaps because he was concerned that it might be too hard without a helpful nudge or two. But I realize most searchers are “all-in” on their own solutions and not really interested in wasting time on what they view as highly speculative alternatives lacking specifics. But I will add that at least one other poster here has solved the same first two clues that I have and knows exactly what I’m talking about as far as the book hints. So either we’re both delusional in precisely the same way, or we’re onto something.

          • Zap, pardon me for butting in but I think you made some interesting points. I have a question for you, or anyone else that wants to answer. Do you think all of the people Fenn speaks about have figured out the first two clues like you have, as there are many that have solved the first two clues according to Fenn?

          • Goofy;

            If Forrest says that more than a few have solved the first two clues, regardless of whether one uses the one sentence = 1 clue approach, or the 1 line = 1 clue approach, I would guess that in either case the line containing wwwh must be included. That being the case, I would guess that this clue would have to have been solved, so for me, I would say yes to your question.

            Is Zap one of those that Forrest would include in his list of those that have solved the first two? Only Forrest knows. JDA

          • Hi Goofy,

            “Do you think all of the people Fenn speaks about have figured out the first two clues like you have, as there are many that have solved the first two clues according to Fenn?”

            Believe me, Goofy, I’m very curious to know how many people Forrest believes have truly solved the first two clues. I have been assuming it’s at least dozens, but there’s really no way to estimate. My w.a.g. is based only on a rough extrapolation from the number of different people posting here vs. the total people Forrest has said have been searching at one time or another.

            I will say that it is quite easy for anyone to pass by the WWWH location, and be completely oblivious to the fact. So early on, some searchers could have described the path they took to where they thought the chest was, and Forrest would know they had gone right by WWWH. But unless those searchers explained what WWWH was, Forrest would have to assume that there presence there was accidental — an anomaly. The only searchers that Forrest could say actually solved the first two clues would have to provide him the “word that is key” and explain the nature of what WWWH is. Then he would know for sure.

            Now with the poem alone, I don’t think you can be very certain you have those first two clues correct. Maybe you would be 70% sure. I certainly wouldn’t (and didn’t) put BOTG without confirmation from the book, so my guess is that anyone that *did* put BOTG and told Forrest about their search very likely found at least one of the confirming hints in TTOTC.

            I can also totally see how someone could have those first two clues, but be dead wrong about the 3rd and beyond, and blow right past them. So naturally I’m interested in what fraction of those that solved the first 2 clues went right past the others? A couple years ago, the answer was apparently 100% according to Fenn, but earlier this year he said some ~may~ have solved 4 clues, but he can’t be sure. So it could again be a case of searchers mentioning specific places, but without clearly mentioning the underlying logic that tied those spots to the poem.

            I will be very interested in Forrest’s annual “progress report” to Jenny early next year — assuming he’s willing to provide an update. If someone is very close, he might decline to answer, or be vague in his answer, e.g. “some may have solved more than 4 clues”.

          • Goofy – Pardon me for elbowing my way into this discussion.

            You posed a very good question. Here are my thoughts and you can do with them whatever you may. Logically speaking there very well may be searchers that have figured out the first two clues and understand them with confidence. The other side of the coin also says that some that have figured out the first two clues may not know for several reasons. One is that f does not give any confirmation when searchers send him their ideas. The second reason is that some of those that figured out the first 2 clues may not find the connection with the hints in the book. The third reason is that some of those that have figured out those elusive clues might not have a good map. While a good map isn’t necessary for the first 2 clues it wouldn’t be a bad idea to have one.

            IMO F is a visual learner and he understands that many others are as well.

          • You are so right, Zaph. At this point most searchers are so locked into their own solution that no amount of reason or logic could persuade them to abandon that hard-earned solution.

            Based upon what you’ve written in the past, I think you’ve got the first two clues. No disrespect intended, because you seem like a really smart guy, but I don’t think you’ve got it all figured out. I believe that some of the unlikely coincidences you’ve found are just that. But that’s not a criticism – I agree with a lot of what you have posted.

          • Zaphod, Hear me all, spoon…
            Goofy’s question got you folks to basically say one thing. Something, other than just figuring out ‘where’ the first clue[s] might be, is needed to be understood.

            Zap; “The only searchers that Forrest could say actually solved the first two clues would have to provide him the “word that is key” and explain the nature of what WWWH is.”
            HMA; ” The second reason is that some of those that figured out the first 2 clues may not find the connection with the hints in the book.”
            Spoon; “No disrespect intended, because you seem like a really smart guy, but I don’t think you’ve got it all figured out. I believe that some of the unlikely coincidences you’ve found are just that.”

            With the exception of spoon, possibly,
            [ spoon, not sure if you referencing the book for ‘ coincidence ‘ But that was my take].

            There seems to be a lot of reference to the book holding vital information… information that without the poem could not be solvable. { if I reading these wrong, apologies }. I can’t and won’t dispute the book as helpful, even important, but in your minds… do you think the solve can be accomplished without the book?

            I ask because of the “important possibility” comment. It seems to mean, when I read that comment, one of two things should present itself.
            1. something from the book triggered and important piece of the poem.
            2. the poem refers to an important piece in the book.

            When fenn made that comment… the important possibility had to be present at the time of writing either the poem of the book or both… imo that can’t be an after the fact.
            What say you?

          • JDA – Good evening. I have a some questions for you if you are willing to answer.

            You have made it very clear that you the area you are searching is in WY but not near Yellowstone. So it means that the area you have chosen is not written about in TTOTC. Do you think that Forrest purposely didn’t write about the area in his book to make it more difficult to find?

            Secondly, since f has said that certainly more than several have figured out the first 2 clues, does that statement give you pause that maybe others might find it before you can return to search that area?

            How did you randomly pick a word from the 6th stanza to be the keyword? In my line of thinking a keyword would be located much closer to the beginning in order to help as the keyword. I’m not saying your approach is wrong, I’m just trying to find the logic behind it.

          • Hi Spoon!

            “Based upon what you’ve written in the past, I think you’ve got the first two clues.”

            Thanks for the vote of confidence — you are certainly in the minority in thinking so. (wink)

            “No disrespect intended, because you seem like a really smart guy, but I don’t think you’ve got it all figured out.”

            None taken, and you could very well be right. I’m quite confident I’ve got many clues solved beyond the first two (including the blaze) but there is always a little room for doubt.

            “I believe that some of the unlikely coincidences you’ve found are just that. But that’s not a criticism – I agree with a lot of what you have posted.”

            Some of Forrest’s hints are subtle enough that they could be indistinguishable from confirmation bias. This is especially dangerous for someone like me who is pretty good at pattern recognition. Fortunately, Forrest has utilized plenty of redundancy in TTOTC (and in the poem) to help searchers discriminate between actual hints and an overactive imagination. We shall see!

          • Hear Me All;

            I will try to answer your questions.

            You have made it very clear that you the area you are searching is in WY but not near Yellowstone. So it means that the area you have chosen is not written about in TTOTC. Do you think that Forrest purposely didn’t write about the area in his book to make it more difficult to find?

            Answer – probably YES

            Secondly, since f has said that certainly more than several have figured out the first 2 clues, does that statement give you pause that maybe others might find it before you can return to search that area?

            Pause – YES – Concern – No. It is not likely that anyone would have figured out the remaining clues in the same way that I have figured them out. Will a few be able to search the general area – Sure. My exact area – unlikely.

            How did you randomly pick a word from the 6th stanza to be the keyword?

            It was not random.

            In my line of thinking a keyword would be located much closer to the beginning in order to help as the keyword. I’m not saying your approach is wrong, I’m just trying to find the logic behind it.

            If the architecture of the poem is a circle, and as T.S. Elliot said,
            “We shall not cease from our exploration
            And at the end of all our exploring
            Will be to arrive where we started
            And know the place for the first time.” The sixth stanza COULD be the first. JDA

          • Zaph – please keep in mind that my judgments are based only upon the limited amount you’ve shared vs. what I anticipate the actual solution to look like. That leaves virtually unlimited room for error, so please take my comments for what they are worth: very little. The only thing I’ve said that is worth much of anything is that I think you are a smart guy. Take care.

          • Seeker- While I think that it might be possible to solve the poem with the poem alone, it might take longer than a lifetime to do so.

            I’ve come to think of it this way. It’s similar to a three legged stool. Without one of the legs it won’t be able to support itself very well. One leg is the poem. A second leg would be the book. The third leg would be a good map. I rotate among those three items when trying to figure out the correct solution.

          • Zap, thanks for the answer……I’m not locked into any solution. Fenn has stated many times about lots of folks solving the first two clues then missing the others.

            This leads me to believe the first two clues are straight forward and relatively easy to solve. Even the little girl from India, boy from Waxahatchee, or Arab kid from Marrakech, can solve the first two clues.

            @HearMe, Fenn has said you won’t know if you got the clues correct until you find the chest. Which leads me to believe there is no way to verify the clues. Obviously this brings up his statements about moving with confidence etc. The only way I can reconcile these statements is he didn’t say from where or when we would move with confidence.

            There are several areas where the first two clues fit very well and are popular search areas. Most of us old timers have blown these areas off because we, and many other people, have searched there extensively. Most/all of the folks, including me, that have searched those areas have gone there with more than two, if not most, of the clues solved before we go.

            Perhaps we should go back with only the first two clues and take a look with fresh eyes and attitude at what is right in front of us.

          • Goofy, You opened this up to “anyone else” so I would like to chime in. If I am correct, please tell me if I am wrong, Forrest said that he believed several have solved the first couple clues, “because they have told me where they were.” IMHO that does not necessarily mean that they -figured out – the first two clues. In my solve, a person could “put in below the home of Brown” intentionally, and then proceeded to pass the other clues by because they did not understand how the first couple clues applied. Does that make sense and answer your question?

          • LMN, he has made many statements, in writing and interviews, about folks solving the first two clues so I won’t list them; they are easy to find. To me he has been clear that they have solved the first two clues correctly.

            I don’t know what you mean by “they did not understand how the first couple clues applied”. But I do agree wholeheartedly that we don’t understand something. Which is why I mentioned to Zap if it would be a good idea to revisit the popular areas with only the first two clues in mind.

          • Hi Goofy,

            “Zap, thanks for the answer……I’m not locked into any solution.”

            You and Seeker are a couple of exceptions on that count, which gives you an advantage because you are still open-minded about the possibilities.

            “Fenn has stated many times about lots of folks solving the first two clues then missing the others.”

            I think the third clue is pretty challenging, and prior to this year I wonder if anyone even recognized what it is in the poem.

            “This leads me to believe the first two clues are straight forward and relatively easy to solve.”

            Here, I would disagree — I think the first two clues are pretty tough.

            “Even the little girl from India, boy from Waxahatchee, or Arab kid from Marrakech, can solve the first two clues.”

            Yes, they conceivably could with just a decent map of the Rockies. But they will get no further with such a broad scale map.

            “Fenn has said you won’t know if you got the clues correct until you find the chest. Which leads me to believe there is no way to verify the clues.”

            I guess it depends on how strong of a verification you’re looking for. Finding the chest is the only 100% verification, but I think most searchers are happy to head out with a 95% solution. If 100% was required, no one would ever put BOTG.

            “There are several areas where the first two clues fit very well and are popular search areas. Most of us old timers have blown these areas off because we, and many other people, have searched there extensively.”

            I haven’t exhaustively searched all the posts on Dal’s blog, and the search function doesn’t really allow a true keyword search of the website, so I can’t say for certain that no one has posted the correct WWWH before on this site. But I haven’t seen it in the ~18 months I’ve been here. Of course, even if it’s not posted here doesn’t mean that one or more of you “old-timers” hasn’t used it at one point. I think anyone who solves the first 2 clues will be quite confident they are correct if they find the corresponding hints in the book, and recognizing their solution difficulty they would not risk sharing them on a public forum.

          • Zas…”So either we’re both delusional in precisely the same way”

            Look I don’t don’t want to shake Goofy’s steadfast beliefs/reasons why we should all give up, but I will do you one better, I would make a 3 rd party to what you just said re. book hints

            Not only does ff peeper us with hints in the stories, but he’s clobbering us in the SB’s (imo)

            I’m simply saying f is have a great time rubbing our noses in it, it’s all innocent fun, I mean if we can’t take it we shouldn’t play along.

            Come on, are we all too meek to question even one little story f tells us? Does anybody honestly believe that f in 1975 single-handedly orchestrated a Soviet Union Art Show in his gallery, that he phoned Madam so and so from the Kremlin at 3 am?
            Yeah, I believe that by 2004 it could have happened, least that’s what I found in a news article.

            Zas, for the record, we have never communicated, but I am guessing it would still make tres, but what do I know?

            Admittedly, Fenn’s LGFI knocked me off my feet, I felt more that a little betrayed, how could this guy change the rules on us after 5 years?

            If f want s to stir the pot, rile us up, I say bring it on.

            Now Goofy, be strong, just forget what you’ve heard here & kindly mail your books to Sparrow, because apparently he has no idea what is going on.

          • NineClues I’m just giving my opinion about what Fenn has said. One might think my comments might get more people off the couch to go out looking; it doesn’t matter to me one way or the other. Many of his statements as of late seem to be saying this won’t be solved at home. Perhaps he realized how many people are wasting their time in front of a screen, and like the doctor told him, that’s not healthy. But people hear what they want to hear.

            I’ll admit I’ve always thought the poem would have to be solved mostly on location. The idea of getting folks off the couch and away from the screens out into the wilderness to smell the sunshine appealed to me. That certainly could be me making it fit what I want it to be. I’ll be out there anyway, might as well pick up a box of gold while I’m out. If Fenn came out and said this has to be solved at home or had he hid it any place other than the Rockies I wouldn’t give it a second glance. But that’s just me.

            Good hunting to you.

          • Zas?? sorry that should have been Zap, file me under “old timer” I suppose.

          • Hi Seeker — up above you wrote:

            “There seems to be a lot of reference to the book holding vital information… information that without the poem could not be solvable. { if I reading these wrong, apologies }.”

            I think what you probably intended to say was “…holding vital information …. information without which the poem could not be solved.”

            I haven’t found this to be the case. The hints in the book inspire confidence *after* you’ve come up with the right solutions to the clues, but the book hints aren’t critical. You just wouldn’t be as sure of yourself.

            You then asked:

            “… do you think the solve can be accomplished without the book?”

            Eventually, yes. But I think it would take much, much longer because you would always be second-guessing your early clue solutions.

            “I ask because of the “important possibility” comment. It seems to mean, when I read that comment, one of two things should present itself.
            1. something from the book triggered and important piece of the poem.
            2. the poem refers to an important piece in the book.”

            Seeker, I don’t think it’s either of those things, but I admit that I’m not 100% sure what he is referring to. I have a couple possibilities in my own solution that would both be good cases of the “one important possibility related to the winning solve.” One involves the nature of how the blaze is used by Fenn, and the other is something quite unexpected about two of the clues. Both of these possibilities deal strictly with the poem, not anything from the book.

          • Zap,
            Im afraid there’s so much info there that SOMEONE is gonna figure it out.

            Pancakes are good but waffles aren’t bad. Umm…….I’m hungry! It’s breakfast time!

    • Hi Jake,

      I think the quote (as found at the Cheat Sheet on this site) is this:

      “All of the information you need to find the treasure is in the poem. The chapters in my book have very subtle hints but are not deliberately placed to aid the seeker. Good luck in the search.”

      A seeker is a person who searches low and high, like The Who says in their song “The Seeker”. Probably, IMO, the hints are placed to aid the Thinker.

    • Not from what I can tell. IMO I have it narrowed down to about twelve feet, where the chest resides… and I only used the 9 clues once each to get there.

    • If you consider my “Crossing Over” as one layer, and my “Treasure Solve” as a second, then yes, although I do not see them as connected. JDA

    • Iron Will, how did you determine the 12 feet (for instance, was it mathematical, or scaled from a map starting with a point you determined from the poem?)

      JDA (I enjoyed the “Crossing Over” piece) and Jake, the first set would be to get you started. It would need to be definite, no ambiguity – just wondering if anyone else was taking that approach.

      • Astree0;

        Glad that you enjoyed my “Crossing Over”.

        One layer is hard enough, do you really think that there are two? I see the architecture of the poem as being a circle, and that the “In the wood” of stanza #6 flows back into “In there” of stanza #1, but I do not see this “second, or third “trip around” as actual layers, just refinement. For me, the WHOLE poem does NOT have to be solved again each “lap” – JDA

      • IMO, From Forrest’s remark that it would not be likely a searcher could get within 12 feet and not find it. I know the x and y, but not the z.

        • IW, I believe Forrest’s remark was in response to a “searcher” mentioning 12 feet…I don’t think he was the one that threw “12 feet” into the mix as a hint. IDK any more than anyone else, but that was how I saw that one…

          • “I have not said that a searcher was closer than 12’ from the treasure. It is not likely that anyone would get that close and not find it.” That’s a direct quote. It logically alludes that if you are over 12 feet away (say 20 for example), that there’s more than a slight chance you won’t find it. But if you are within 12 feet, there is only miniscule chance of not finding it, even the poem or his backstory… and there’s a reason for that statement, IMO

          • I do not see the logic there IW because the # was mentioned by another first as a type of rumor I believe. So how does anything MORE than 12 feet decrease one’s chances? Let’s play and say that the number of feet was 13. Would you still maintain your statement? There is no ridicule here, I just saw that comment as an exchange to an arbitrary number presented by someone other than Forrest.
            In general, I am aware that being close, closer or closest increases a searchers chances for a multitude of reasons.

          • Iron I agree except we don’t know the distance to difficulty ratio. Kinda like calculating intensity with the Inverse Square Law. Is the probability of finding the chest inversely proportional to the square of the distance from the chest?

            We know that many people have solved the first two clues and been within a few hundred feet; and if you get within 12 feet you will probably find it.

            It makes some folks here go berserk when I say this; but that is one of the reasons I believe one has to be on location to figure it out. Maybe this is why a comprehensive knowledge of geography will help.

          • Goofy ~ “…if you get within 12 feet you will probably find it.
            It makes some folks here go berserk when I say this; but that is one of the reasons I believe one has to be on location to figure it out.”

            Sure Goofy, But does that include anyone or only a searcher with the information?
            Hidden is a relative word… you have heard all the theories over the years from searcher on how it might be hidden…
            But, for the chest not to be “stumbled upon,” would you agree that a searcher could walk right pass a 10″X5″ chest IF they didn’t know beforehand of its close proximity?

            Somehow the poem should tell us where that 10″ sq. location is… and not so much a 12′ circle to be pickaxed, shovel and metal detected for hours.
            *Of course, the actual location does need to be considered. Example; if in a small cave like area 12′ might be close enough. [ or some kinda of enclosed location. ]
            I always ponder fenn’s explanation… the chest “retrieved,” to be an interesting word to use.

          • Seeker, I know you’re asking Goofy & seeing this is public platform & I would like to follow the conversation, I need to know what “the information” means?

            You said: “only a searcher with the information?”
            What info are you talking about?

          • Jake,
            Information in regards to what searchers had from the start of the challenge… In comparison to a non searcher or passerby with no knowledge of the chase.

          • Thanks Seeker,
            That clarifies the waters.
            He did say “anyone” but that would mean anyone can see the chest from 12′ I’m not sure “anyone” or everyone has that good of eye site to see a 10x10x5 BB.

            I think he meant “searchers” but then again if you buy into what he said 100%, you would have to think it’s not buried or under water or maybe even hidden, cause you would see it within 12′.

            But then again, ” I reserve the right to be wrong once in a while.”
            I think that was the ninth…..

          • I get what you’re saying Jake.
            The question I asked Goofy or anyone who want to give it a go… would you agree that a searcher could walk right pass a 10″X5″ chest IF they didn’t know beforehand of its close proximity?

            I’m inclined to think the chest is so well hidden even a searcher would have a hard time finding it … IF they didn’t full understand the poem. Or maybe a better way of explaining… if a searcher happened to get that close by most of the clues, they may not know how close they are unless the solved the poem beforehand.

            I can see Goofy’s version as well that we need to see what is there… but even seeing what might be there, imo, may not be enough to actually locate the chest if all the information is in the poem.

            So to be fair… my line of thinking is, there may not be a marker, sign, or indicator as such… but more that the poem may give the understanding as to how to see/locate the chest by another means. Maybe even tell ‘how’ to retrieve the chest.

          • Seeker: “I’m inclined to think the chest is so well hidden even a searcher would have a hard time finding it… IF they didn’t full understand the poem.”

            I will buy that Seeker. It would only make sense to me if they were searchers & they understood what the poem is actually conveying, otherwise 12′ to a tourist, hiker, hunter would not understand & not be looking for & probably not be able to see the treasure and/or not be able to know what the blaze is.

            But, Goofy has a very valid point that most agree & makes sense.
            Sooner or later you have to put BOTG to figure some of the clues.

            You could be right about the understanding but I think understandings change much more rapidly than the landscape & would have to go with the geographical understanding than the mental one for it is only a thought & not physical.

          • Seeker, yes I agree someone could walk past the treasure, even within the 12 foot range, and not find it. He said no one would stumble across it. I took his statement to mean that a searcher would probably find it if they got that close.

            So yes prior knowledge of the treasure is necessary. I also take it that a searcher would not need to be that close (12 foot) to find it. He said we would proceed with confidence when we figured out the clues. So once we figure it out on location we will walk straight to it, while slapping our head wondering what took so long.

          • Goofy – When Forrest told us that a comprehensive knowledge of geography would be helpful, did you wonder if a map might boost your knowledge of geography quickly? The reason I ask is because if one is standing anywhere in the RM’s and is trying to figure out the clues it would be virtually impossible to make any progress or proceed with confidence IMO.

            I’m not shooting down your ideas of figuring out the clues with BOTG. I just think it would be incredibly difficult and a miracle if one could do so.

            As I continue to re-read TTOTC I find more evidence to provide confidence to searchers that can best adjust to the architect.

          • HereMe, Yes I think a good map is helpful; it might even be required to find the first two clues, as the first two clues can be solved from home. Does the comprehensive knowledge of geography help with the first two clues or solving the remainder of the poem???

            I agree with you that it is incredibly difficult to figure out the clues, I think you can put that one in the bank because when a guy like Fenn says it’s difficult but not impossible that means it’s highly unlikely anyone will figure it out.

            The test of time and the amount of incredibly smart people trying to figure this out have proven that statement to be true.

          • “Does the comprehensive knowledge of geography help with the first two clues or solving the remainder of the poem???”

            Hmmmm….good question.

            I would think that a “comprehensive knowledge” of geography would be required in order to apply the clues the ff has provided to a starting location.

            We need to know that no dam is needed, but we also need to realize that we should be looking at locations above 5000 and below 10200 ft.

            Does one need a comprehension of knowledge of geography in order to do this, if they are to look on an map of topography, which can also be classified as a “good map”……as it eliminates places that fall below the 5000 foot threshold.

            :o)

            Cheers and good luck!

          • Goofy – Many thanks for your response.

            IMO I believe that the first 2 clues can be figured out without a good map. Much like the question about the LGFI/LGII. She had a map of the RM’s not a good map. Her map was too broad.

            IMO a good map is needed, not an option, to figure out anything beyond clue 2. Without it a searcher will have too much area to search without being able narrow anything down.

            You are correct that it is difficult, but I would offer up that Forrest really has given searchers more than enough information to solve the poem. I even made several more connections this weekend that solidify my beliefs when re-reading TTOTC.

            What if F has given us the poem that contains 9 clues and the book that does contain hints and confirmations that will give you enough confidence to proceed without any doubt?

            As a precaution I will say that I haven’t solved the entire poem at this time. I am however on the right trail and continuing to chip away at the block of wood that the sculptor gave each of us to work with.

          • Jake and Goofy,
            It’s a given that botg is going to be the enders game.
            SF podcast; ” it’s not a matter of trying, it’s a matter of thinking… people have figured the couple of clues and unfortunately walked past the treasure.”
            As I have suggested in the past [right or wrong] The word “follow” might be taken in the wrong concept. I look at the poem more as instructions than physical directions… that is not to say physical hiking is not involved, but not so much over landscape from one clue to another to another.

            I lean toward many clues leading [pointing at] a searcher to a single location that must be traveled to. No water[s] or canyon or distance between needed to be traveled… simple following the instruction to the location. Which of course, require botg to accomplish.

            An as Goofy reminded us in his own words ~ while slapping our head wondering what took so long.
            The point here is Goofy and I see the poem working differently. That’s fine, we really won’t know until the solve is told of. However the comment ‘what took me so long’ is important to my line thinking, as to ‘certainty beforehand’

            So when do we smack our heads and say… what took me so long? For me, it’s a different perspective on how to read the poem.

        • My take on the “couldn’t imagine someone being within 12 feet and not find it” comment is that if you decipher the clues and follow them correctly to within 12′ of the chest you would surely follow through and find it.
          I don’t think it’s out in the open and visible from 12′, but if you are closing in and thoroughly searching the area from that point you are sure to find where it’s hidden.

          -Randawg.

          • I’m hands off any f statement that has the proverbial ‘it’ in it. He’s not suckering this clown into spending much time on that.

    • Astree- im a believer in a second set of clues from the first. I believe they are letter for letter anagram for each line of the poem. The last lines tend to be the most difficult to solve, but i have rough couple ideas of what to look for. There may also be a third poem, but not anagrams, but rather listening to words of lines to make clues.

    • astree0 asked: “Has anyone found that there are two layers of nine clues?”
      ————————————————————-
      My response to your question is … yes.

      There is a general layer and a separate layer that is much more specific.

      Ken (in Texas)

  2. Hi ,
    My Name is , well that’s not important . I have blogged before -but I have not in a long time . Some know me and some don’t. What matters is what I want to say here. After studying the poem for well the better of 5 years ; and I mean about 4 to 8 hours a day of study – this is what I have concluded. The treasure is you ! All of you !!

    All you need is the poem . The poem the poem the poem .
    For along time I have wondered what the heck f was talking about .
    The clues in the book are not put there to aid any searcher.
    Now isn’t that a funny word to use. “Aid”
    It would be easy to tell you , but what’s the fun in that . =)

    This is easy to figure out….
    All f had in 1988 was the poem .
    Well ..he had it also in 2010 – except in 2010 he had the book and the poem .
    Why? Why? Why? Why? Why ?Why ? Why ? Why ? Why ?
    DId I put nine y’s ? opps . Who blogged about those y’s?
    So I guess it’s not a big deal. Maybe I just see things a little different.
    Think about it for a second… He didn’t have the book .
    I like warm waters halt , or should I say all his warm waters halt.
    ” it’s easier then combing my book for clues” or something like that Fenn said.
    “You could skip half my book and still find it.” f said.
    I believe he said he had it all figured out when he threw Catcher in the Rye in the trash . I think he meant it ! So where did a 79 or 80 year old man carry the chest-? Now that my friend changes everything. I think I know but I won’t tell.

    The Golden Ring hung for all to seek
    A treasure Bold in no place for the meek ,
    In a Canyon Brown below the home of Brown .
    Not a giant named Brown
    or a secret Golden home-
    That only Mother Earth ever known

    Unless you have unlocked this maze.
    The fish you seek has got away

    But , terry scant with marvel gaze ,
    Look quickly down this quest to cease
    Then ask the Wise Man what it is you seek

    Where fools play Sir din’t you know
    As he walked past me with it in tow.

    It’s not here in the place you think, it should be,
    Some thing is wrong or he lied to me .
    No no – your information is wrong-
    Besides I know him and this man’s my friend.

    We don’t have too long
    It’s far to walk-
    I’m almost 80
    And my age has caught up.

    Shakespeare was in the wood
    his initials in a tree
    Something about a girl
    And all his friends did see .

    “Where are the Treasures old wise Sir ?
    Where ever you may find them .”

    He just called me a fool .. =)

    ANoN

    • I am sorry that you’ve spent the last 5 years @ 4-5 hrs/day and this is your Best(?) guess. I have to ask, have you ever seen or read a copy of TTOTC???
      Maybe open the window & let in some fresh air. Do some binge Fenn video watching…honest. Try the tab labeled ‘writing’, I believe he lets us in one of his pranks.

      • they call you 9 clues ?

        Thats almost funny . I guess you have never read any of the books . This is plain to me . You can’t see? Read till the end you may . But ask next time.
        LOL =) That is why the ring was placed . But , I guess you didn’t read Catcher too did you ? But, you knew this too I suspect. No I won’t just give you information . But I will tease you . Trust me better me then the world .
        They won’t be nice to you as I .

        I think you my friend do not listen .So I will remind you of what it is you seek . ” Read it again , the middle of page 15″ Fiction writers only have to right eighty five percent of the time everyone knows that , how else can anyone write a book .”

        Look up the definitions of the word As then I then
        have then gone then alone then in then there .

        Once you have a actual thought , then please share .
        So for now to be a Mr. Smarty pants as you are, would
        disrespect the actually reason for hiding the chest . So I will reframe from using my P.H.D. on you as f putts it.
        Except I got mine from him …….

        AS is the value of a Roman coin with the image of Inaus, It’s value is I . So in a really easy way for you to read- 1 ancient coin surrounded or concealed by something else to imply where the place in mind is.This is in the definition .
        But since you have read all of Forrest Fenn’s Books , You must have seen all the definitions of all the words?You must have seen the implication of operational math . You must have found the DE-NOTATION of Semitic computer languages and understood it? You must have found the operational mathematics in there also ? And you must have seen E=Mc2=Mc2=E.
        You must have worked the operational math on AS I HAVE GONE ALONE IN THERE and it equaled 1 meaning the treasure is you . You must understand the Philly incident and f covering it with his thumb over East?You must have found the Eric Sloane connection with J.H. Sharpe in Taos . And the connection of Mary Cornwall and J.D. in his diaries. I have read them .You must know the Art connection in Taos with the first of the society equalling 9 members. But , then you must know of his treasures shown bold in the museum in Cody that I so love I have been back 5 times. You must have seen J.H.Sharpe’s cabins bill of $34,000 dollars to move to there. You must have read the Terry diaries,
        and know about Brown . =) Go look…
        You must have found the connection of art also in Cody Museum . Like the 9 artifacts in the Summers End collection . You must have been to all the camp sites f has been . You must have found the Grapette Grape and Orange cans from the 1940’s in those places he was as a kid fishing, as well as a chain of pop tops near a huge tree , I did. You must have walked Sage Brush Flats with me and my sons looking for that dang engine spitting oil all over. You must have climbed the road a Hegban Lake and seen the frog and bee hive up there in the winter , so you can see them .
        You must have seen the Indian Girl in Santa Fe Spinning wearing the Jewelry that Mr. Fenn and his lovely wife placed there for all to admire , and Dream. You must have seen the gold as I in Cody that he was going to use in his Children’s Treasure hunt to donate college money to the one who found it. You must have found that red hankie exactly where Holden’s sister said it would be , you must have found that under that tall grass as I have . You must have walked Central Park New York to understand what the heck Holden was talking about and what the heck the big deal of those duck are, and you must have seen the winker . Yea , you know the green light from Gatsby ? The one in Central Park.
        And if you found the Hankie , then I guess you know where Holden was going to live in Colorado also cause that’s where I found the Red Hankie.Thanks F for that one. You must know Forrest Fenn showed the chest to his friends while it was covered with a Red hankie . You also must know on August 22 – September of 1988 I know where F was . You must not understand the reason of the Chase . And why f really wrote TTOTC? I know I won’t tell . I respect it and is why I write this …
        I guess you know on page 14 TTOTC last three sentences;”So I reached in the trash for Catcher and put it on my desk o everyone could see that I had read it. I think my friend J.D. knows . ” Well who is everyone? He was a;lone after midnight remember ? I think I know who they were =) Then on page 14 TTOTC 2nd paragraph “So I started to figure things out , Einstein once said Imagination is more important then knowledge .”
        Then read page 13 again . After that go ahead and read where he says ” I had it all figured out’ and he threw Catcher in the trash . After that go ahead and read again where f said that Catcher was like his life and who could manage a coincidence like that could happen .
        Well I can’t so I did.
        See while you are combing the book I have read , I go out on the trail – I spent time in the museum that he did , the library he did , the fishing holes he did , and I saw what he saw through his eye’s.
        I spend time looking at what is beautiful . And is why I said the Treasure is you all of you . This takes a certain kind of person to even involve them self on this . And you are one , and as I human and beautiful my friend.
        Then you would know the rest I would suspect then .

        That been wise is wisdom . That Heavy loads and water high could be Mother earth and Father sky.

        Shoot we can go all day .

        Instead since you have opened your own can of worms. I have been on over 50 hunts. I have solved this thing 100 times all based on the books and poems and videos .
        What is it you think you see I don’t, that you can attack my understanding of this . You don’t know me . What I know – Like how the heck do I know F was caught red handed with the chest in 1988? Hum?
        How do I know that _____ picked him up and told him if he thought he was going to do this then he would have to do it with ___. I know him- and Peggy is his Little treasure and was the first he found. How do I know he sat with the chest in public wanting to pull the hankie out of the chest to wipe his sweaty face in the winter?
        How do I know that on January 27th 2010 Forrest Fenn
        was at boarders books in Santa Fe ? How how how
        boy there are a lot of those now isn’t there ?

        My friends we have lost a true treasure in this country ,
        our friend ship and trust in each other . I didn’t have video games as a kid and no Tv for along time . My father was a simpleton and after dinner we sat around the table and shared .Books,Music ,Poems , Dreams, Stories and I remember laughing a lot . My dad was awesome . I love him for that to the day – He always pressed me again my will and I thank him now more then ever.But even more I thank you also for having me write this . I needed to think.

        Your thoughts are yours , so yo are of your own .
        Your imagination and intelligence is beautiful !
        So dream , make small mistakes , live a bit . Fall on your butt in the woods so you know to wear better shoes next time . Or just take my advise about the shoes.
        Have fun , see the beautiful things in this world !
        Breath in the mountain air , see the flowers you never herd of smell them even , get out of your dang car and check the area you noticed, I did and found a water fall that spans about a mile in the spring. Sit with nature and enjoy all life.

        ANoN

    • the HoD rules state that we’re not suppose to be mean or taunt others, ow shucks!!

      Mr Fenn has done 48 video interviews, come on ff loves himself some spotlight, but for a good cause. I’ll give you an example, where he commented about a feature on the F-100.

      He said (1st crash landing) when the engine finally quit, he lost power, and the RAT should have deployed but it didn’t….

      Well after watching every episode of “Air Disasters” on the tube, I had heard of this propeller driven aux power thingy. Sometimes the way Fenn pauses or hee haws about with his re-telling of stories I get curious, so why not fact check?

      Well as it so happens, 50’s military technology could have saved a few civilian jet aircraft that went down back in the day.

      Here’s a right-hand cockpit photo of the lever just as ff mentioned…
      http://www.f-100.info/images/cutshall_f-100f_frconsole2.jpg

      • I was not taunting at all my friend ,nearly sharing a new style of thought I have been using . Its kind of a muze.
        I love what you said above . It’s not easy to put that thing in after burn . Heck I had a hard time popping that throttle and pushing it to full throttle . Nor pulling it back so to use the guns.
        I love that stuff .

      • Maybe I can explain the Ram Air Turbine comment better, it barely makes any sense the way I phrased it.
        So I was watching the video thinking, is that really true, is he putting us on about the RAT or could he be hinting about something else? Years back I poured over the instrument panels/ cockpit layout of those F-100’s, (he always mentioned them ” 24 gauges”) that combined with reading every library book about the jets back then, made me a bit cocky.

        No, I really poured over the diagrams, figuring the number in the diagram- corresponded to a dial/ knob/ switch, ALSO somehow represented a page # or gps coordinate~ it was a long time ago

        Here’s Fenn retelling both of his near death experiences, but I’m too busy second guessing him. When the engine quits, you lose your hydraulic pressure, etc., you become a became a really big lawn dart.
        He said the thing was suppose to deploy automatically, but it didn’t. That yellow label above the lever with the red handle says “emergency flight control system power” [right hand cockpit photo]

  3. WWH ideas:

    Down from San Antonio Springs is “Ice Cave Canyon”

    Agua Caliente flows into Rio Grande or stops to form a pool in the canyon

    Below Ohkay Owingeh, all of the warm waters above have finally joined the Rio Grande and been cooled off

    Valles Caldera – Warm Water in the “boiler”, also an area there where a hot spring forms a pond.

    Continental Divide?

    Ojo Caliente Spa, or any hot spring spa.

    Cold Water – figuratively speaking, wwh where the cold water is.

  4. Here is a warm waters halt to all .

    Oh my -wisdom and Brown are the same .

    Some times the Hound should be a fox.

    my did he just do that ….. hummmm

  5. You will know where you are going before you leave your house.

    How dose any one base the solve on the books… =)

    Don’t you realize the books are the Golden Ring?

    But maybe the Golden Arrow is stuck in that tree.

    The Poem the Poem the Poem –

    SO how will you know ?

    Did you forget – he only had the poem in 1988.

    So , I ask then did you find the blaze in the book ?

    And who didn’t try to match a blaze in TTOTC.

    And who looked for the blaze first?

    If you did then you are as far as I.

    But- a bronze 9 feet high

    stacked 24 high

    Where Brown is seen by 6 bright lights.

    Pretty Wise or should I been wise

    Well that’s wisdom now ant it. =)

    It is easier then combing the book for clues.

    • Nur–urse!!! Oh, nur–urse!!! Please bring aNoN his meds now and bring them quickly please!! Thank you!!

      • Thats almost funny . I guess you have never read any of the books . This is plain to me . You can’t see? Read till the end you may . But ask next time.
        LOL =) That is why the ring was placed . But , I guess you didn’t read Catcher too did you ? But, you knew this too I suspect. No I won’t just give you information . But I will tease you . Trust me better me then the world .
        They won’t be nice to you as I .

        I think you my friend do not listen .So I will remind you of what it is you seek . ” Read it again , the middle of page 15″ Fiction writers only have to right eighty five percent of the time everyone knows that , how else can anyone write a book .”

        Look up the definitions of the word As then I then
        have then gone then alone then in then there .

        Once you have a actual thought , then please share .
        So for now to be a Mr. Smarty pants as you are, would
        disrespect the actually reason for hiding the chest . So I will reframe from using my P.H.D. on you as f putts it.
        Except I got mine from him …….

        AS is the value of a Roman coin with the image of Inaus, It’s value is I . So in a really easy way for you to read- 1 ancient coin surrounded or concealed by something else to imply where the place in mind is.This is in the definition .
        But since you have read all of Forrest Fenn’s Books , You must have seen all the definitions of all the words?You must have seen the implication of operational math . You must have found the DE-NOTATION of Semitic computer languages and understood it? You must have found the operational mathematics in there also ? And you must have seen E=Mc2=Mc2=E.
        You must have worked the operational math on AS I HAVE GONE ALONE IN THERE and it equaled 1 meaning the treasure is you . You must understand the Philly incident and f covering it with his thumb over East?You must have found the Eric Sloane connection with J.H. Sharpe in Taos . And the connection of Mary Cornwall and J.D. in his diaries. I have read them .You must know the Art connection in Taos with the first of the society equalling 9 members. But , then you must know of his treasures shown bold in the museum in Cody that I so love I have been back 5 times. You must have seen J.H.Sharpe’s cabins bill of $34,000 dollars to move to there. You must have read the Terry diaries,
        and know about Brown . =) Go look…
        You must have found the connection of art also in Cody Museum . Like the 9 artifacts in the Summers End collection . You must have been to all the camp sites f has been . You must have found the Grapette Grape and Orange cans from the 1940’s in those places he was as a kid fishing, as well as a chain of pop tops near a huge tree , I did. You must have walked Sage Brush Flats with me and my sons looking for that dang engine spitting oil all over. You must have climbed the road a Hegban Lake and seen the frog and bee hive up there in the winter , so you can see them .
        You must have seen the Indian Girl in Santa Fe Spinning wearing the Jewelry that Mr. Fenn and his lovely wife placed there for all to admire , and Dream. You must have seen the gold as I in Cody that he was going to use in his Children’s Treasure hunt to donate college money to the one who found it. You must have found that red hankie exactly where Holden’s sister said it would be , you must have found that under that tall grass as I have . You must have walked Central Park New York to understand what the heck Holden was talking about and what the heck the big deal of those duck are, and you must have seen the winker . Yea , you know the green light from Gatsby ? The one in Central Park.
        And if you found the Hankie , then I guess you know where Holden was going to live in Colorado also cause that’s where I found the Red Hankie.Thanks F for that one. You must know Forrest Fenn showed the chest to his friends while it was covered with a Red hankie . You also must know on August 22 – September of 1988 I know where F was . You must not understand the reason of the Chase . And why f really wrote TTOTC? I know I won’t tell . I respect it and is why I write this …
        I guess you know on page 14 TTOTC last three sentences;”So I reached in the trash for Catcher and put it on my desk o everyone could see that I had read it. I think my friend J.D. knows . ” Well who is everyone? He was a;lone after midnight remember ? I think I know who they were =) Then on page 14 TTOTC 2nd paragraph “So I started to figure things out , Einstein once said Imagination is more important then knowledge .”
        Then read page 13 again . After that go ahead and read where he says ” I had it all figured out’ and he threw Catcher in the trash . After that go ahead and read again where f said that Catcher was like his life and who could manage a coincidence like that could happen .
        Well I can’t so I did.
        See while you are combing the book I have read , I go out on the trail – I spent time in the museum that he did , the library he did , the fishing holes he did , and I saw what he saw through his eye’s.
        I spend time looking at what is beautiful . And is why I said the Treasure is you all of you . This takes a certain kind of person to even involve them self on this . And you are one , and as I human and beautiful my friend.
        Then you would know the rest I would suspect then .

        That been wise is wisdom . That Heavy loads and water high could be Mother earth and Father sky.

        Shoot we can go all day .

        Instead since you have opened your own can of worms. I have been on over 50 hunts. I have solved this thing 100 times all based on the books and poems and videos .
        What is it you think you see I don’t, that you can attack my understanding of this . You don’t know me . What I know – Like how the heck do I know F was caught red handed with the chest in 1988? Hum?
        How do I know that _____ picked him up and told him if he thought he was going to do this then he would have to do it with ___. I know him- and Peggy is his Little treasure and was the first he found. How do I know he sat with the chest in public wanting to pull the hankie out of the chest to wipe his sweaty face in the winter?
        How do I know that on January 27th 2010 Forrest Fenn
        was at boarders books in Santa Fe ? How how how
        boy there are a lot of those now isn’t there ?

        My friends we have lost a true treasure in this country ,
        our friend ship and trust in each other . I didn’t have video games as a kid and no Tv for along time . My father was a simpleton and after dinner we sat around the table and shared .Books,Music ,Poems , Dreams, Stories and I remember laughing a lot . My dad was awesome . I love him for that to the day – He always pressed me again my will and I thank him now more then ever.But even more I thank you also for having me write this . I needed to think.

        Your thoughts are yours , so yo are of your own .
        Your imagination and intelligence is beautiful !
        So dream , make small mistakes , live a bit . Fall on your butt in the woods so you know to wear better shoes next time . Or just take my advise about the shoes.
        Have fun , see the beautiful things in this world !
        Breath in the mountain air , see the flowers you never herd of smell them even , get out of your dang car and check the area you noticed, I did and found a water fall that spans about a mile in the spring. Sit with nature and enjoy all life.

        ANoN
        Meds please =) What even f put me on , I want more please .

  6. This will run me afoul of Goofy but I do not think it’s a matter of not seeing the TC when one is close. When F says something to the effect of no one will stumble upon it I think he means because of the location. No one goes there, not one is going to go there unless they do so intentionally. Most people stick to the path. This is a get off the path guy.

    Try this Jake or Dal. When you are out on a solve leave a jar with a twenty dollar bill in it. Stick off the path not to far behind something but not buried. Go back in one year. Is the Jar still there?

    If I could have a day with Forrest I would take him Morel hunting. Morels are not hidden. They are large mushrooms standing in plain sight but I will be darned if they aren’t difficult to find!

      • f said that in The Thrill Of the Chase a Memory

        He was pushed by people at times when he didn’t want to . This thought him respect for people . Thus respect in return.

    • Lugnutz,
      I agree with what you’ve stated in your first paragraph, but I would like to add something that doesn’t seem to get mentioned with regard to the location. It may also shed light on Forrest’s “Nobody is going to happen on that treasure chest…” comment. Recently, Forrest repsonded to a question:

      ***** 8/26/2016 Weekly Words
      Dear Forrest Fenn,
      If you could only see one of these two things before you pass on what would it be, your special place where you secreted your treasure chest or the chest and it’s contents? I hope my question is not to bold. ~The Count
      The Count,
      Both the treasure and its hidden location are so vivid in my mind that I don’t need to see them with my eyes again. f
      mysteriouswritings.com/featured-question-and-weekly-words-from-forrest-fenn-neither/
      *****

      I’m in the camp that believes the poem leads to a location. A primary problem is it leads to many locations. Forrest said, “Whoever finds it will have paid their dues and earned the prize.” (also at MW under /six-questions-yet-again-with-forrest-fenn-always-a-treasure/ ). IMO, “paid their dues and earned the prize” implies a process of elimination, but this isn’t my point.

      What I believe is most important about location, aside from it being THE location or not, is what a searcher is actually looking for once s/he reaches the location to which the poem has led. Are you looking for a hidden chest or a hidden location? Are you trying to find something that hides or disguises a 10″ x 10″ x 5″ treasure chest, or are you trying to find a hidden location that may contain a (possibly hidden or disguised) treasure chest?

      What I find most interesting about Forrest’s response to the question above is his response doesn’t use the same nomenclature as the questioner when referring to the TC’s location. In addition, and to my knowledge, this is the first time he’s referred to the location as hidden. Previously, it’s been “hidden treasure” or similar and “special place” or similar.

      I’m just saying that, with Forrest’s comment above, I now believe it’s beneficial to keep an open mind about what I’m actually looking for once reaching a predetermined location.
      Joe

      • Joe,
        That is a very good point about the “hidden location”.
        He does also say “both”.
        Lug & Joe,
        I do believe the location is hidden away from a path that is not in very close proxy & yes Forrest has said “When I am in the mountains or in the desert, the last place I want to be is on a trail. Ain’t no adventure in that for me.”

        Makes sense to me the hiding spot should be a hidden, very low traffic area where pretty much no one goes there although it’s a beautiful place.

        That’s one of the reasons I liked Taylor Falls along with my interp of the poem taking me there. Took 2 trips this year & on the next to the last day was able to get down in the gorge safely but no treasure.
        Only one way in & out & there is no other reason I can see why anyone would go into the falls & besides, I found out it’s borderline treacherous getting there & sucked up way too many hours to get into the Falls.

        So, I would have to say that the hiding place has no visitors except for treasure hunters & you definitely need to keep this in mind for your solve.

        • Jake
          You hit it right on the nail head, Also if you remember F did say that there is no human trails in close proximity.
          Keep on trek-n-n-n.

          Timothy…IMHO

        • Timothy I believe Forrest said not in very close proximity – similar, but not the same. JDA

        • “That’s one of the reasons I liked Taylor Falls”
          ——————————————
          Jake … Maybe I’m wrong. But in my opinion any location that has a name attached to it is gonna be too well known to others to be considered “hidden” or never traveled to. Also, your post suggests that although you made it to your destination, the trek could be potentially dangerous. And anytime I see the word “gorge”, I immediately think … danger.

          Personally, I do not think the phrase “water high” refers to a waterfall; that would be just too obvious.

          • Jake et all

            I am not ignoring your comments. I didn’t get the emails.

            We few here seem to agree the place is hidden or less visited.

            I saw a place and had an experience that is akin to what I think Forrest describes. I was on a farm in Ireland. My mother calls it Cable Mountain but I can’t find it where it should be! My sister Annelise kicked a ball into a stream that was covered by bushes arching over the top from either side and meeting to form a canopy. I found a spot where animals break through and did the same. What I discovered I will never forget. A small pool fed by a short waterfall. A world in miniature hidden from the outside and all my own.

  7. Here’s another cool ISBN clue….

    Since I need my meds –
    ISBN 978 is fan Fiction . published by author and all proceeds must be donated – it is a add on to a book Fan fiction I mean .
    Well you knew that didn’t you ? Meds please…
    And the of that ISBN number it equals the pages in the book .
    You knew that to right?
    And you know that the pages are not numbered correctly? =)
    And you knew how to find the way to explain all that to me ?
    Boy I want to go to your school instead of Fenn University .
    And you know As I have gone alone in there , also means one among many?
    lol, this is fun! I had no idea-
    really that you guys don’t know all of this stuff . I thought I was way off.
    I will say who ANoN is on my side soon . I just need to think a bit.

    I hope my imagination stays in tack when I get almost 80, as well as my memory. That is where f is most likely the smartest ever at it……
    Mnemonics I mean , Meds please Nyquill is for wimps.

    A mnemonic (RpE: /nəˈmɒnᵻk/,[1] AmE: /nɛˈmɑːnɪk/ the first “m” is silent) device, or memory device is any learning technique that aids information retention in the human memory.
    Math by f I call this =) Thanks f

    Visual sense and spatial orientation[edit]
    Perhaps the most important principle of the art is the dominance of the visual sense in combination with the orientation of ‘seen’ objects within space. This principle is reflected in the early Dialexis fragment on memory, and is found throughout later texts on the art. Mary Carruthers, in a review of Hugh of St. Victor’s Didascalion, emphasizes the importance of the visual sense as follows:
    go look =)
    Did you know in 1988 Google was not invented yet.
    He didn’t change the plan =) Google it lol

    Cartographic if you ask me – All of it
    Proof…. Okay heres proof
    How many of you picture a Y , how many a spot , how many
    a circle , How many a crow , how many picture a spade or metal spade
    and do you see these in black and white? DO you dream ? Of course you do … You think when you dream better I think.=
    ANoN

    • Interesting stuff. I wish I understood what you were saying, but very interesting indeed. You’re probably a PHD professor at Yale. You remind me of this comedian that used to be around. He went by the name Doctor.. something, and he would spout off all this technical jargon that made no sense. He was very entertaining though— I’ll try to remember his name. Funny fellow.

  8. ANoN,

    I don’t know who you are, yet I don’t doubt what you have given, (in more ways than you know). More than this, I am ever thankful for all of the treasures you have identified so warmly.

    I hope you’ll never stop…dreaming.

    SL

    • SL

      Thank you my dear friend. I am just me . I am no writer ,but I am trying ,
      I have learned from Forrest Fenn so many things. Some times I just want to burst and share all . I could not figure out how to
      write that above at first – I am truly glad you saw it . My goodness what a blessing.
      Because we all must realize we actually have the chance to make this happen. But it will take a lot of Catchers in the Rye.
      And where better to find them .These people in here are some of the finest of folk. Some may see some may no but all are the same here in search of the same thing . Maybe not at the helm that attracted you or I to the chase.Or any one else , but truly we all have giant hearts. I have been proud to be apart of this
      and did most of my stuff quite. To a degree. I have no chest of gold . But I have found more treasures wondering around on accident then while looking with in myself. Thus the treasure is you .
      I learned to dare , dare to dream if that is the right way to put it . Heck SL I still cant identify in words properly ,what I was trying to say above . But to tell you who I am first and not ANoN
      would have defeated my purpose of this . I think J.D. , Hemingway , Fitzgerald , Forrest Fenn , Jackie Kennedy , President Reagan , and so many others who are truly F’s friends know – About all I’ve told about .” If you want to know the truth,
      I don’t know what to think about it.”
      ” I’m sorry I told so many people about it .”
      “Don’t ever tell anyone anything, if you do ;
      you start missing everybody.”

          • ANoN, or is it ANoN is Mr. D and Heather or is it Mr. D and Heather.

            You seem a bit confused. How can we believe anything that you say, if you can not even agree on who you are? If you are as seasoned a searcher as you say, who were you last year, or the year before that?

            Just a tip from an old geezer – Just be yourself, whoever that may ne. JDb

          • Maybe he is multiple personality ANoN, either way I thought much of it was refreshing.

          • an accidental typo huh? – that’s how it all starts JDA
            ..or should I say JDb?

            ..or should I say J2D2? ..or is it J3PA?
            🙂

          • Hi Jake and JDA

            No I am not back to square one by no means . That is why I posted above. I feel a lot of folks are quick to judge what people say a bit harsh. SO I created this ANoN muze as that. Due to some of the comments I have seen . A bit creative but no mix up here . Maybe in the minds of Judgmental folks .
            I was disabled for over 60 weeks . I could not move nor did I know if I would again . I was in a very bad car accident
            and had 9 operations in less then a year.
            Not knowing weather I was ever going to be able to work or much passed that . I decided on the advice of a friend to take a look online about Forrest Fenn- to take my mind off things. My buddy was Air Force and I trusted his advice. .
            I have a big family 5 sons and 2 grand babies . SO I figured I would give it a try .
            Heather is my wife , Mike is my name , Mr. D was a name f called me cause my name was too long to type. =)

            We have searched from Bozeman to Santa Fe. I have many many solves – some kind of kiddy and some very serious but they are beginning to end . The ones I don’t want to share ,I don’t. But what I really try to share, is no one has to believe me or my information . I say what F says most of the time. And most of the things I had said were from F’s books and the Catcher in the Rye .
            Some of the data I posted are from really reliable sources . Museums and people Forrest knew . Including friends of his I met on accident- by accident I mean by a smile. But most to just conform the data Forrest listed in his books.
            -You know the Home of Brown she said. – The one who we smiled at said that to us one day . No I can not tell you who she is or where you would find that person , nor am I conforming she was correct . But-
            Boy that floored me . She told us a story that was exactly like Bessie and me.
            That got me to think.
            My POSTS BEING LONG
            I long wind them so if you read to the end you will see what I say and if you don’t you won’t . I will not just give all my data.
            I earned it as you have , so I just share little bits to give a newer prospective of thought into the solve is all . Trying to see this through F and not others and what they think or believe to be true is not important to me never was . I only wanted to see if they (searchers) see it shinny . Shinny to distract you know F said it not me. F hid the box when it was shiniest . Only because no one has found that box is the only reason I say that .
            We all have said what we think to a degree and we all have been wrong. If we were not we all would have a little chest of gold . =)

            But to go back and reference the 9 clues in the book and poem , that interests me .

            SO where are those pesky 9 .
            Maybe -????
            9 sentences – that’s where of course…
            I can keep my secret where ….?
            There alone I would say among many .
            In bold – the treasures new and old.

            I lost my train of thought and forgot the poem . Maybe I will remember later =)

            Take care I know I am kind of coded –

            Mike and Heather

      • I think when you used the term “Mr Smarty Pants” you gave away who you really are. That term is used in an article I’ve read. Hardly anyone uses that term.

        I’m a little confused as to why you would post all of the above though. But I do find it interesting. Geez, when is that nurse ever going to bring those meds?

    • I’ll be a little vague so as not to give away my solve but warm waters halt but not for just a moment but forever.

      • To see if we are on the same page,and not giving a solve away-can you tell me the approximate year this osmosis took place?

        • I had to look that fancy word so i had to look it up and still don’t understand it so I’ll guess million years ago

          • Thank’s for the reply Tonto! Although not on exactly the same page as me,I think you are moving in the right direction. Poor Forrest is probably seeking Medical attention because his sides are killing him due to excessive laughter brought on by HOSSMOSIS–Thanks Sparrow

        • Is that anything like Hossmosis? That’s when someone becomes more and more like Hoss from Bonanza. Probably a totally different thing though.

    • MDC777,
      You said in the video that the clues are vague to force searcher to look [ close enough for horseshoe ] My problem with that thought go back to throwing darts.. or process of elimination by going on many many searchers. That doesn’t sound like nailing down the first clue or stay home.

      Fenn ~“Some may have solved the first four clues, but I am not certain.”
      It doesn’t matter if you’re a 9 liner or 9 sentences solver… it would seem hoB falls into those clues. Right? Wrong?
      HOB question by marg ~ fenn; well that is for you to find out. If I told you that, you would go right to the chest.
      Fenn ~“If you are sure about the location of home of Brown why are you concerned about where warm waters halt?”
      Fenn~“I cannot imagine anyone finding the treasure without first identifying the starting point, although many seem to be preoccupied with later clues. To me that’s just expensive folly. f”
      Fenn ~ “The most common mistake that I see searchers make is that they underestimate the importance of the first clue. If you don’t have that one nailed down you might as well stay home and play Canasta.” f

      So, if one knows hoB, no matter what number clue we think it is… there’s no need to nail down the first clue anymore. Right? Wrong?

      Dear Forrest,
      You tell us that we should find “where warm waters halt” before trying to solve any of the other clues. Imagining that we haven’t seen the rest of the poem, and all we have to go on is:
      a. “begin it where warm waters halt” and
      b. “somewhere in the mountains north of Santa Fe”
      Do you think that we can confidently determine the starting place for your treasure trail? ~ Steve
      “No, if all you have to go on are those two clues you cannot proceed with confidence. Look at it this way. If you were making a cake and you left out a few ingredients, would you achieve your goal?
      Your question reminds me of another:  You leave home and walk a straight line for a mile, turn 90 degrees left and walk a curved line for a mile and shoot a bear. Then you turn 90 degrees left again and walk a straight line back to your home. What color is the bear?f “

      While I personally find flaws with the question; if we can skip hints of riches, wwwh canyon down and forget about how far anything is… do we still need all those “ingredients” if we know what hoB refer to?
      Fenn ~ “I don’t want to broaden the clues and hints I’ve written about by pointing them out. What surprises me a little is that nobody to my uncertain knowledge has analyzed one important possibility related to the winning solve. Ff”

      So we have searcher who deciphered the first two clues [ that fenn has stated ] some may have solved the first four clues [ fenn must have had a reason to state this~even if those searchers didn’t know they might have] Apparently we need all the “ingredients,” but not if we have one that is eight lines, three sentences into the poem? Right? Wrong?

      *Your destination is small, but its location is huge.
      While many believe the first clue is Begin it where wwwh, lets play with that thought for a moment. Why do many feel wwwh is a single location?
      “There are a few words in the poem that are not useful in finding the treasure Phil, but it is risky to discount any of them. You over simplify the clues. There are many places in the Rocky Mountains where warm waters halt, and nearly all of them are north of Santa Fe. Look at the big picture, there are no short cuts. f 

      Are many over simplify clues by having them be a single smaller place?… “ but the “location” is huge.”
      A mud puddle to an ant looks like an ocean. What does a map look like to you?
      MD777 you have some good thoughts, but do you overlook the possibilities by wanting the first clue to be the 4th line in the poem and/or wanting it to be a single small location. You say fenn told us to “begin it where” [regarding the first clue ] But you might be overlooking what fenn wrote prior, “As I have gone alone in there”… what is the first thing fenn told us in-regards to the poem?

      Sorry for the long post… I don’t do U-tubes. lol, I can hardly take a picture with my idiot phone. I did enjoy watch it though.

      • The poem says begin it wwwh. Are we supposed to figure out something in the first stanza before beginning it? Possible but how do we know what that is? All I have to go by is the poem and TTOTC so to the book I go.

        • Have you thought there might be a connection to mountains N. of SF. Before beginning to understand all those wwwh, and how canyon down?

          Seriously, if warm waters is the one and only first clues, and as you said, so vague that we need to guess at all the waters mentioned in the book … That seems to imply the book is a must and still having many possibilities. Or the others option is check all our favorite wwwh on a map of the Rockies.

          Nothing here sounds like the poem will lead precisely to the chest without a lot a guessing to start.

          I just don’t agree fenn made the poem sooooo vague we need to search hundreds or thousands of places before hitting the correct location.

          But I do think the poem was cleverly written to give many that impression. ” It’s not a matter of trying, it’s a matter of thinking.”

          • All,

            From Forrest gets mail 9:

            You have told people to stay at home unless they have solved the first clue.

            “If you don’t know where you are going any trail will take you there.”f

            Again, the first clue is not warm waters halt, where is.

            LitterateOne

          • I have posted this a number of times, but here goes again. For me, I have found a very obscure definition of “In the wood” which leads me to an exact geographical area in Wyoming. If I insert this geographical place or area into stanza #1…”As I have gone alone in(to) this geographical place – It will lead the searcher to a very logical wwwh location – no guessing – just follow the poem. From there, it is fairly easy. But, I (as yet) am not holding the chest, so what do I know? Probably NADA – JDA

          • This is the order I figured out the clues 4, 2, 8, 9, 1, 3, 5-7. Isn’t that interesting. : )

          • Will you add the clue the to number, so others can see your “path”?

            I ask, because I think a majority of the seekers all have a core set of clues, but are not in the order you make note of.

            Aren’t you “messing with the poem” when you shouldn’t be?

          • JDA,

            5-7 (inclusive of six, the order didn’t really matter.)
            Consecutive yes, but remember, whoever ‘they/he/she’ was, went past seven clues. That means you only need to know one of them.

          • Again, the first clue is not warm waters halt, where is…

            How do you determine “where” if you do not know what the warm waters are? Is the info in the poem or the book?

          • MDC777,

            Must we know what warm waters halt are before we know where?

            “All the information you need to find the treasure is in the poem”

            LitterateOne

          • Kedars mom—-

            I applaud you. To know you have all nine clues figured out must be a good feeling. Are you going to retrieve the treasure this year, or waiting until next year?

      • Seeker,
        I respect your opinion and, though I’m not sure you were referring to my use of “process of elimination”, I would like to address this comment:

        “My problem with that thought go back to throwing darts.. or process of elimination by going on many many searchers. ”

        I agree with your perspective, as my total number of searches over more than a handful of search seasons is easily counted on a ‘normal’ person’s toes and fingers. If I may, I’d like to add a bit of clarity to my meaning of “process of elimination.”

        IMO, the process of elimination is relative to the area to which the poem leads. Because no searcher KNOWS beforehand if s/he has guessed correctly on all, or any for that matter, of the poem’s key words and/or phrases, the wise searcher will, IMO, consider alternative locations within or near the predetermined general area. This is where “process of elimination” enters the picture. I typically humor myself by believing that I’ve become just a wee bit wiser after each search 🙂 . At the very least, I feel better informed.

        I’ll also add “The end is ever drawing nigh;”, IMO, is an important phrase that can substantially minimize alternative locations. In fact, if I had to choose a word that is key, it would be “drawing”.
        Caveat emptor: Even if you connect appropriate dots, you can’t be sure you have THE correct dots until you find the TC – sorry for the redundancy.

        “Idiot phone” 🙂 .
        Joe

        • Hey Joe,
          Your process of elimination seems to be site specific, where my comment was to the general starting point or where to start on a location for the clues. If we’re talking eliminating, lets say three or four possible hoB or no meeks… sure.

          You said ~ ” Because no searcher KNOWS beforehand if s/he has guessed correctly on all or any for that matter…”

          This is where I disagree. Sure, fenn has said we won’t know if we have the first clue correct until the chest is found… that seems logical to me. I could say the same for, I don’t know for sure my car will start, but if I take the correct step it should, but I won’t ‘know’ unless actually starts.

          “I warned that the path would not be direct for those who had no certainty of the location beforehand, but sure for the one who did.” f

          When reading this, it seems to me, that we should have that same understanding we have with the car scenario… having the same understanding of how the poem should start and work… We should have some certainty beforehand… otherwise it is a dart throw and a prayer.

          So, my term for process of elimination is more like, a bucket full of car keys, a parking lot full of car… and guessing which key fits which car.

          I’m interested in your choice of, word that is key being “drawing.” I also think the word is very important, in fact the entire stanza may wrap around that word…can you tell/explain to me what usage[s] you use for the word? Just curious.

          • Yo Seeker,
            Thanks for responding. It may be only a matter of semantics that separates our perspectives. I’ve also referenced Forrest’s “I warned that the path…” statement, but with the emphasis on “beforehand”. IMO, ‘certainty’ is a very strong word, and I’m more comfortable using ‘confident.’ Confidence, as it pertains to The Chase, is intangible, and over-confident, or certain, usually involves a wedge of crow pie – just my perspective.

            Before I will search, I must be confident I’m making my best guesses about the poem. Once I have a very guarded sense of certainty, I will search. I must be confident enough that I begin to envision success; otherwise, I research more or play Canasta.

            Regarding “drawing”, I will say my ‘caveat’ is quite literal in that it describes the mechanics. With regard to your statement,
            “in fact the entire stanza may wrap around that word…”,
            I will say I agree with that, but would expand its sphere of influence.
            Joe

          • I like to meld Seeker’s idea of how confident he is with his car key and Joe’s thinking that in the Chase confidence is an intangible (which I don’t agree with). Confidence could be the word that is key. If so, that takes away the subjectiveness of confindence in the Chase.

    • I am surprised no one has brought up the word that is key comment by Forrest some time back. Is this word not used to figure out the correct warm waters? Also is the word in the poem or the book?

      • Posted on February 4, 2014 by Jenny Kile
        Q ~ “What are some of your thoughts about the flurry of activity over the past year? Did the excitement towards the Chase surprise you in any way? Does it make you think the chest might be found earlier than first thought?”

        A ~ “It is interesting to know that a great number of people are out there searching. Many are giving serious thought to the clues in my poem, but only a few are in tight focus with a word that is key. The treasure may be discovered sooner than I anticipated.”

        mdc777,
        Do you believe the word is meant for wwwh only?
        My take on this, it’s a word that brings the poem together, not so much a single clue.

        • Well since F has said WWWH is the hardest clue and they get easier after that I think the word that is key helps yes. Also reading that quote sure sounds like the word is in the poem not the book. Would you agree? And going back to my warm waters video the word that is key may just give the proper context for what warm waters are that we are looking for.

          • Actually MDC777, He said the first clue is the hardest, and they get progressively easier after that.

            There has never been any mention that WWWH is the first clue…other than a searcher’s opinion

          • It is easy to see that as more time passes that the many statements Forrest made on the blogs and during interviews, become lost in translation. The stories get twisted and folks think and hear something other than the original. I have had to back up many times to make sure I have not misread or heard something that just is not so…People like Seeker and Loco are a blessing in that they are quick with the reference to clear things up. I take no offence being corrected when I make an assumption…but, remember, that many things Fenn says can be interpreted a multitude of ways. This has been shared and discussed since this Chase has begun…

          • I think the lock is in the poem. IMO, the word that is key unlocks the blaze and not the correct wwwh.

          • Ken ~”It is easy to see that as more time passes that the many statements Forrest made on the blogs and during interviews, become lost in translation. The stories get twisted and folks think and hear something other than the original.”

            Yep, one example of a media report/interview is;
            *An important clue
            One thing Fenn will say is that most people are missing the most important clue; “begin it where warm waters halt”. When you solved this clue, he shared, and the others will fall into place. “If you don’t know ‘where warm water halts,’ Fenn said, “you don’t have anything.” It’s not much, but it’s a start.*

            http://santafetravelers.com/santa-fe-blogs/forrest-fenn/

            New and Old will read this and some will say… See I knew I was right, fenn confirmed the first clue… but thus far all this is, is a reporters interpretation, in comparison to all the videos and quote / comments directly from fenn himself.

            It would be great if it was factual, it make my day a bit easier and give my last brain cell a needed vacation.
            But I haven’t heard [ video, audio ] or read a direct quote from FF about what the first clues is.

            As IW said, “… other than a searcher’s opinion.” I’ll add, reporters opinions as well.

            Ken ~ “I have had to back up many times to make sure I have not misread or heard something that just is not so”
            I’m glad you and others [ self included ] take a minute or two, to simply double check… thanks for asserting it.

      • MDC I like the secret where also .

        The thing is in 1988 Forrest didn’t have TTOTC .

        So how would he get his hold card to go back to get it .

        One is – a hold card holds your place at the poker table and is my fav. Considering I wrote about the poker solve some years ago . If you did know – you can play poker with the poem . The only thing s the spade is the last stanza and is f’s hand – so you always lose.=) Try it out
        figure ou show many words per line in each stanza and see who wins . F dose.

        The other is a hold card is a credit card.

        I have looked at a word for a while .
        Some thing that rings bells for me is F saying
        ‘ It will be there when you arrive. ” Arrive is formal.
        Interesting word arrive. But so is wisdom .

        Take care Im off . I have some thing to look at
        involving DNA.
        Good night all. =)

        Where are the treasures old wise sir?
        Where ever you may find them .

  9. I’ve never read either book—- just read the poem and scrapbooks, and stuff over at Jenny’s site. I know this will sound bad, but I have kind of avoided the books, as it seems people get all caught up with the photos and what the “think” they see in them, and get lead away from the poem itself.

    I am not a “poem purist” (as some seem to be labeled), but there is so much in the poem itself that getting side-tracked seems counter-productive. So, aNoN, you are right, I have never read “the books”. Perhaps I will buy them– maybe it could help to have a better grasp on how Forrest really thinks. I do believe that learning to think as he does may have a lot to do with solving this puzzle.

    • Sparrow,
      I read the book a couple years after I read the poem. What I found, and you’ve mentioned, with 147 pages and many pictures and illustrations it can be overbearing to hint collecting… maybe even confusing for that fact that the reader is actively searching for anything that seems to click.

      Another searcher reminded me recently this comment from fenn;
      10:45 Chicago radio WGN interview, March 2013:
      Q: Does the book give me any more information than I would get from the poem?
      A: “There are some subtle hints in the **text** of the book that will help you with the clues.  The poem will take you to the chest but the book by itself won’t.” f
      { I added ** }

      I’m personally ruling out pics and illustration. Other may not agree, but that comment seems pretty straightforwards to me.

      • Emphasis on “text” rules out the mysterious map debacle (page 99) in my opinion. Also the hotly debated theory that the photos are photo shopped to provide hints…I too, went for quite some time with only the poem. Might as well use all of the info available to attempt the winning solve…I believe TTOTC paints a blurry picture of how Fenn thinks. Understanding a little bit about what makes him tick may lend some insight and help a searcher.

      • “Q: Does the book give me any more information than I would get from the poem?
        A: “There are some subtle hints in the **text** of the book that will help you with the clues. The poem will take you to the chest but the book by itself won’t.” f
        { I added ** }

        I disagree that the book won’t get the seeker to the chest.

        Why?

        Because the poem is in the book, thus, “The poem will take you to the chest but the book by itself won’t” is inaccurate.

        Just more ff twists and turns.

      • Hi Seeker, you surprised me with this comment:

        “I’m personally ruling out pics and illustration. Other may not agree, but that comment seems pretty straightforwards to me.”

        I thought one of your hallmarks was your anathema to triage, but here you indicate a willingness to ignore the pictures and illustrations in TTOTC? This is a mistake in my opinion. While I haven’t found anything hiding in the photographs, some of the illustrations have very big hints, and there are also multiple hints hiding in the postmark stamps.

        • Hey Zap,
          I gotta go with fenn’s comment. He could have easily stated hints in the book as he has most of the time… However this wording explains text.

          But I’ll go one step further… If the illustration or pic has wording for it, about it, i’ll take that into consideration.

          And to be honest the page numbers still make me wonder. I’m not sure if those are considered part of the text, but would surely be an aberration.

          • Reminder on ‘hints in the book’:

            ♦ Q: Are there subtle hints in the TTOTC book? “Yes, if you can recognize them.”
            ♦ “All of the information you need to find the treasure is in the poem. The chapters in my book have very subtle hints but are not deliberately placed to aid the seeker. Good luck in the search.”

          • ..Excellent research materials are TTOTC, Google Earth, and/or a good map.” f
            “you should start with the first clue and follow the others consecutively to the treasure. Hints in the book are not that organized.”f
            “There are nine clues in the poem, but if you read the book (TTOTC), there are a couple…there are a couple of good hints and there are a couple of aberrations that live out on the edge.”
            http://www.chasechat.com/archive/index.php?thread-2651.html

          • Randawg,
            Those and other similar comment are great, helpful and informative… Yet even with these after the fact comment we still need to understand what is being told. That can be a bit trick at times.
            I’m curious on your take if these comment ? [ since you reminded us about them ]. It would be good to recap our thoughts.
            Here is some of my perspective, and thoughts;
            Q: Are there subtle hints in the TTOTC book? “Yes, if you can recognize them.”
            We simply can’t go looking for what we think is a hint. And, imo this might be why we see hints in every paragraph, page, story etc. ending in a kitchen Sink full of hints solves.

            “The chapters in my book have very subtle hints but are not deliberately placed to aid the seeker.”
            [ I guess that leaves me out ].
            This kinda helps me understand that the pics and illustration may not be hints… those are deliberate, no matter where they are placed… add the comment about, ‘hints in the text’ and, well, what more can I say.

            “..Excellent research materials are TTOTC, Google Earth, and/or a good map.” f
            We have been told what is not useful as well [ discussion that have been on the blogs over the years.] but some just simply dismiss most of it. I think very little researcher is needed… fenn seems to have given us what is needed… but common sense dictates we need to utilize maps and meanings of word because of other comments fenn as made. [ I’ll add, imo, the book explains that as well ]. if we know what to look for. My example would be of a subtle hint in this regards;
            “I tend to use some words that aren’t in the dictionary, and others that are, I bend a little.” IMO, that says to me… seeker look up usages of words. hence… Multiple Meanings.

            “…there are a couple of good hints and there are a couple of aberrations that live out on the edge.”

            Ok, many may not see this the way I do, but a couple doesn’t sound like every other word in the book. I’ll add fenn’s definition of aberration; “something different”…imo this fall in line with bend a little and ” embellish just a little.

            Those are my thoughts, what are yours?

          • Zap;

            The only one I am aware of ithat talks about deception s also in the “Cheat Sheet”. It says, “♦ “I said on the Today show that the treasure is not associated with any structure. Some people say I have a desire to mislead. That is not true. There are no notes to be found or safety deposit boxes to be searched. The clues can lead you to the treasure, and it will be there waiting when you arrive.”…

            but says nothing about “aid” and “Seeker” – Is this the one? JDA

          • JDA: that’s the one. My remarks about “not deliberately placed to aid the seeker” were an attempt to show how people will read into a statement something that Fenn didn’t actually say or write. *I* say the hints are deliberately placed (again, IMHO), because they serve no earthly purpose otherwise. In fact, if someone doesn’t think these mistakes are deliberate, then he/she must conclude that Forrest is either sloppy or ignorant, and I don’t think anyone thinks those things.

          • My opinion seeker is that the book (TTOTC) does have important info toward the solve and it is unwise to ignore it.

            Fenn has said: “you will ignore the poem at your own peril”
            I say the same could also be said of the book. IMO.

    • I’m with you Sparrow…..as my first solve did not include the book at all, and I only utilized the poem to show me a solve.

      Odd thing about this first solve….I’m still using it.

      IMO – it got me to the region I am searching, and has given me further things to investigate when I go back to the area a second time.

      Yes – I’ve searched only once, and plan to go back after winter.

      F said one does not need the book to solve the riddle, but it is helpful.

      I agree, after I read the book, it helped solidified my solve.

      Granted – that my first go around with BOTG didn’t allow me to take the chest, but it did afford me additional actions to take.

      I also think that one does not need BOTG until you “put in below the home of Brown.”

      …and believe this or not, I think I have finally discovered the correct hoB…..it is unique, not easily found, and keeps within ff’s “I even walked 92 miles, because I could” area that would have been involved when ff took that “long walk”

      Please remember – “92 miles” is actually 46 miles there and 46 miles back. Thus, if the starting point is known, a radius of 46 miles could be a reference to “not far, but too far to walk”. I think it is.

      Cheers!

      • Ok one more time. We are here to share ideas in order to further the chase.

        If you mention your rare HOB we can tell you who looked at it years ago so you kniw not to waste time and money.

        Just like everyone else you won’t want to do it. Please then promise that after you go you will come back and tell us so e can then tell you who found the same HOB. Years ago…

        • LOL…..sorry Lugnutz….I won’t reveal it.

          You can continue to think that this one was discussed, but, in truth, of all the years I’ve been on this blog….it hasn’t been spoken of once…..and I have read a lot.

          “Put in below the home of Brown.”
          – Begin your adventure south of the home of Brown.
          – You will need to have boots on the ground south of the home of Brown.

          HINT: IMO – it is not an artist, a ranger station.

          I do believe it has a dual reference:
          = A region relative to the grizzly bear (ff adventure side)
          = and the another layer/reference – a physical place/location that is specifically relative to “the home of Brown”. (ff history side)

          In fact, I believe ff uses this mentality throughout the poem. I say this, because ff first took me through a history lesson, in order for me to arrive at a decent WWWH.

          Why couldn’t he do it with every clue in the poem?

          I’ve already noted that there is the micro/macro relation as well.

          Looks like you will have to find out this “hoB” out on your own.

          Good luck.

          • Rocks –

            Hey I have a bear related HOB too!
            Rancho Del Oso Pardo

            I think Forrest said something like if he revealed Home of BRown, you’d go straight to the treasure. After the history lesson you may be on your way.

            Hey bud, you have a good day!

    • my post about ‘the book’ sparrow:

      At first I did not think the book was necessary to the solve. In fact I waited several month’s into my search before I bought a copy. Then out of misguided arrogance I kept it in the shrinkwrap for another couple of weeks.
      I wish I would have bought and read it sooner. The book has valuable insight and information regarding the Chase, and I can’t imagine anyone finding the chest without it.

      -Randawg.

  10. TFTW – Personally, I continue to learn new things every day. For example, just a few days ago I learned an alternate definition for the word “walk”. Per Mr. Sloane’s Diary of an Early American Boy, “Mr. Thoms’s ‘walk’ was the place where he made rope. Rope-walks were sometimes a quarter of a mile long….The rope-spinner had a large bundle of fiber gathered loosely around his waist; he pulled out strands from this and wove them into cords, walking backwards along the rope-walk as he worked. Another man wound the twisted cords into rope.”

    While I no longer “search” for Fenn’s treasure, I continue to learn about meanings that were commonplace years ago that we’ve all simply forgotten. Now owning copies of all of Fenn’s books and about a dozen authored by Mr. Sloane, I feel the doors of wisdom are never quite closed.

  11. Hi Seeker, I’m curious what’s your take on the search/clues. You seem you be a knowledgeable guy and know more quotes from FF then alot of people on these blogs.
    But you all ways seem to answer people with his quotes.
    So just wondering if you would share your take on things.

    Thanks and good luck,
    JW

    • JW,
      Out of curiosity, how long have you’ve been in the challenge?
      In the past many months, I have studied the after the fact comments relentlessly. While I don’t see clues and hints, I do find valuable thought provoking information in them, and information that helps from straying to far into the abyss.
      { that might be the reason you see me posting many of fenn’s quote in regards to some of the conversations }

      My thought and method of reading the poem differs from most. I can read the poem several different way, other-than a directional point to point excursion. There are two examples that have been posted [ keep in mind, they are not full explained theories… just enough to get the essence of the thought process ] Both are found in ‘armchair adventure’ If you want to take the time and read through them, it may give you an idea [ in part ] of how I look at the poem.

      Warning; Wandering around my thoughts is not for the faint of heart.

  12. The way I follow the poem is by doing what it is telling me to do. I see it as simple directions needed to be followed, and not understood, at first. Once I have my aha moment ,then and only then, everything starts making sense. The poem does not make sense to me if I try to decipher the first clues with no evidence. It is only with this piece of knowledge that one starts to see the poem for what it is, and not for what one thinks it is. And that’s why, according to the poem , there is only one correct solve. Everything else is a “curtain” that does not let us see through. This is my opinion.RC.

  13. Upthread, “seeker” wrote: “I just don’t agree fenn made the poem sooooo vague we need to search hundreds or thousands of places …”
    So glad seeker used the word “vague”. Is there anyone here who thinks the poem is not vague? Surely not.

    So, let me quote to you from TTOTC … This is the sentence that comes immediately before the poem on page 132 … “So I wrote a poem containing nine clues that if followed precisely, will lead to … the treasure.”

    That sentence is not some off-the-cuff remark FF made in some interview, that could be misinterpreted. That sentence was worded deliberately.

    We all agree that the poem is “vague”. Yet FF says to follow the clues “precisely”. Here’s my question >>> How do you get precision from vagueness?

    Given that everything you need to find the chest is in the poem … from where in the poem does that precision come?

    Ken (in Texas)

          • Dal – I think he wrote the chapters in the voice of Forrest that is the narrator in each.

            That voice is juvenile at first and occupied with simple things. The voice learns and matures. The voice is scared. The voice is content. The voice is triumphant.

    • Ken,
      Thanks for stating the dilemma so well. I believe that this is THE primary issue a searcher needs to wrestle with, and resolve, in order to move forward. Many pieces are involved in such processes, one of the first involves faith … faith that there is / could be precision in the poem.
      astree

    • Ken( TX)
      Actually, I don’t like the term vague. That seems to imply not enough information is available. Others have use ambitious or ambiguity… Which implies more than one meaning… I lean towards the poem having more than one usage to the wordings and phrasing.

      Not unlike straightforward to mean easy, simple, noncomplicated… Another meaning is honesty. I see the poem as complicated but in all honesty telling the reader what is needed. However, not told in a simple manner.

      I doubt anyone would need so much time and effort to simply write an overly vague poem leaving so many choices and basically coming down to a good guess on where the location might be.

      Imo. That’s nothing more than a dart game with no certainty, confidence, or knowing anything beforehand. Just the luck of the draw.

  14. If you is… U B.
    So… Y B it I?
    First you start from some place.
    (If you count on your fingers, thumb is always #5.)
    Take 3 big leaps to Begin (like hop scotch).
    Just a thought.

    • In words, stanza 5,6,1…. are the equivalent of saying, Lets meet at the diamond in the park and begin the game. IMO.

      • OS2
        The concept of starting at stanza five is not a new one. It actually could keep the though of the clues consecutive, IF stanza 5 & 6 lead the searcher to ‘know where to start.’ That would leave stanzas 1 – 4 holding the ‘clues’ that are needed to be solved at the starting point.
        The question here is, would fenn consider the starting point a “clue,” or are clues only use to proceed [ from there ] and get you closer to the chest?
        It is strange how the last two stanzas don’t seem to jive with the poem after “just take the chest and go in peace” and why some see them as fillers or holding no clues.

        “…I cannot tell you how many searchers have identified the first clue correctly, but certainly more than several. I cannot imagine anyone finding the treasure without first identifying the starting point,..”

        Some may say the first clue[s] are referring to the starting point… but I have never read or heard fenn making reference to the first clue ‘is’ the starting point…
        “There are hints in my book that will help you with the clues, **but a clue will point you toward the treasure chest** and a hint will just help you with the clues, if you can understand that.”
        …A clue will point you toward…

        With that said, there might be a catch with stanza one. The catch might be, the significance involving the 9 clues and the starting point.

        Just thoughts.

        • Oy Seeker… I didn’t say the concept of starting at stanza 5 was new, or originated with me…. its been around since year one. Too many posts (not your’s alone) are redundant spit. I’d like to hear some fresh ideas. I offer mine.

          My point was that the word ‘is’ means ‘to be’….. which, in twitter-land is 2B, as are other character substitutions (UR etc.) Such shorthand was always around in children’s riddles and puzzles. FF may have implied such a substitution in the poem before it became mainstreamed on Twitter. I offered that the ‘Why’ phrase could B more than WY or Y. (actually I said more than that, but I won’t explain that further.)

          I think that BWWWH is the 1st clue AFTER you get to the park or field or valley to start the hunt. It is identified in the 3 preceding stanzas. I don’t know or care about the “clue count”. The flow, it’s force and direction, is what counts.

          And everybody has to check-in at the starting gate before they can BEGIN … like getting a fishing license somewhere before you BEGIN to fish. IMO

          • ** I don’t know or care about the “clue count”. The flow, it’s force and direction, is what counts. **

            OS, I think UR getting there…I just I get there 1ST. 🙂

            **And everybody has to check-in at the starting gate before they can BEGIN … like getting a fishing license somewhere before you BEGIN to fish. **

            And, it helps to know where the fish are at, in order to go to the write gate. Stanza 1 not much help, but 5,6,1 contains oh so many fish!

            oh, oh, oh…….IMO 🙂

          • OS2, that is my thought process. Find the instructions in the words, the words, or the letters. Solve each line this way(which actually can be broken down this way, the odds on that happening randomly is basically impossible, by design)
            instructions= on,in,here,with,can,keep,az,is,etc,etc,etc..Instruction letters=B,C,R. Basically, reading the poem this way and just doing what you are instructed to do seems like a viable way of solving. It’s just the many ways to break a line down and making sense of it is the hard part. Add in some abbreviations, an anagram, and the letter values,(2 could be to or too or two), and it seems to complicated. But it’s really not. Very time consuming, but a way to read the poem.

            Also, don’t care about the clue count. Again, right way to think, they will reveal themselves in the end. In fact, or IMO, you can’t solve the clues until you’ve solved the poem. It’s useless to try to just solve a clue. Especially sense we don’t know what a clue or a hint is. If he didn’t know there were 9 clues until he finished, then we won’t know the 9 clues until we finish. Forget the clues, solve the poem, it’s not getting anybody anywhere taking it for face value, solve the poem, then all the inconsistency and randomness will come together and make sense. That’s the way I see it.

            And, like Seeker has said, the after comments f has made are vitally important. f cannot just sit ideally by, these after comments are like support info for the clues and your path. Like nailing down the first clue, makes a hardware store become a very possible wwwh. Especially when it use to be a train station and it’s near Warm Spring Creek. Breaking that line down and you have your reason for Deer Valley, and the city. (just a bone/or a saltpeter thrown in there as a possible). I think you are more on the right track then you may think.

          • OS2: “I think that BWWWH is the 1st clue AFTER you get to the park or field or valley to start the hunt. It is identified in the 3 preceding stanzas.”

            Did you mean to say: I think that BWWWH is the 1st clue AFTER you get to the park or field or valley to start the hunt. It is identified in the 3 stanzas after the 2nd?

            I’m confused.

          • Bingo JDA! Stanzas 5-6 tells how you to get to THERE & stanza one confirms you are in the correct ‘THERE’. If you are… then you can BEGIN.

            I’ve been looking, but haven’t found that arcane ‘in the wood’ word you found; but i did find a rare meaning of ‘tired’ that was once used in a sporting activity, and is very geographically appropriate for this hunt. I’m using it.

            Also, I’m a she.

          • OS2;

            Glad I got it right, and glad you are a she, as I bet you are.

            Keep lookin’ you might find it.

            I too found a “Tired” that I like, but no sports involved. JDA

        • Seeker- ive come across a very imaginative solve that works with the poem very well. I belive the 1st 2 clues solved by forrests reponse are wwwh and take in canyon down. The reason they went past the rest of the clues is that they didn’t have the first stanza correct. I dont believe its a clue but rather a preface to the poem. So you know what to look for and where. Without those answers have a good vacation..or for thought, how do you nail something down?

          • John,
            Should wwh and canyon down be those clues fenn spoke of as the first two clues… why didn’t anyone of those searcher know [ by ff account ].
            Was it simply a play on words… they didn’t know because they walked by all the other clues.
            You said: “The reason they went past the rest of the clues is that they didn’t have the first stanza correct.”

            I can understand that being the case…
            I can also understand that to solve the poem we may need to understand the question first. He gave us the answers, [and i’m not in the thought of, he was tired and weak from hiding the chest.] I kinda lean to riches new and old have something to do with tired and weak.

            My thoughts on this reading of the poem goes something like this;
            We read the book, we read the poem, we see the question that seemed to be answered in the poem and book… the reason for “leaving” and why he is “gone.”
            He tells us to listen to what he wrote and our effort will be worth the metal chest… If we take on the challenge [ to be brave ]. In the wood is, imo, related to creek. being a narrow mountain passage.

            There’s a bit more, but now we are at the clues section of the poem. So far, what this reading does is explain how to read the clues, and IMO where it all begins relates to new and old… water[s]
            Tired weak, new old, warm waters, canyon down ~all connect. ” the location is huge”

            I know that won’t make much sense to some, but it might to others.

            Whats your take on how the searchers didn’t understand stanza 1? if you can say without giving the cow away.

          • Seeker, imo the first stanza connects the clues, and without it the rest make no sense unless whats found there is seen and understood. I also believe the clues do reverse at some point in poem, and that also throws searchers for a loop. I also believe the blaze to be found early in first stanza and referenced to in later lines.

          • John,
            I like the thought, the blaze to be found in the first stanza… I’m not exactly sure what you found… But the line “if you been wise and found the blaze” seems to imply we should know something about it prior.
            Unless heavy loads and water high is the blaze… somewhere in the poem we should have a hint of what it might be… something only a searcher would know when it is seen, found, or even used.

            Then again, I think the poem tells what everything is. Studying maps is just to familiarize yourself with the location…imo.

          • Seeker, I’m with zap on being surprised you don’t put much weight into the pics.(Don’t get use to it Zap). I understand the text thing, and if there is text in the pics, but you are the dog of multiple views of the solve. I’m sure you don’t discount the pics, just haven’t found anything as of yet.
            My throw into this topic would be I believe f is just having fun with the pics, but some do offer some strong hints. Like I see a 46 degree on page 57 of TTOTC. Some may, some may not, but seems obvious. That’s not that strong, but another pic is pretty big, it’s just not in TTOTC.
            After comment about the poem and putting an “X” on a map. The only map where he says the chest is somewhere on this map/pic is the TFTW map. So, take picture of that map, copy, flip pic horizontally, paste the copy back over, and bring down to 50 percent. You now have the map flipped onto itself. Now I’ve done a lot of moving around and stuff with this layout, and, actually, at one point, an “X” is made. It’s a name of one of the places on the map.
            Now with his comment about an “X” on a map, and the chest is on the TFTW map, that puts a little strength into the “X” you just “somewhat” force fit.
            My point being, the pics do offer help. not as much as the after comments, but can help. The text in the book, yeah, somewhat, but a lot of this kind of stuff, I believe, is just f having some fun. But you are right, it’s figuring out how f meant various things to be interpreted. After comments, pics, book, poem, scrapbooks, etc… the hard part is figuring out what f meant, and it’s all not very consistent. (if I’ve misquoted anything please forgive, at work, tough job);)

          • Charlie,
            At one time I thought wwwh was a glacial time period and the poem came together very well. Then came the comment… there are many wwwh is the Rockies… Now I could be off a little and fenn might be saying glaciers new and old, even those ancient remnants in the mountains of NM. [some below SF]

            Point is, no matter how we try to see a hint or a clue, if fenn’s comments, that we all wait for, beg for, kicks the theory’s butt … I can’t do anything farther with that particular theory.

            I have a hard time seeing all those connections other see from all the massive research being done, when we have the after the fact comments that imply just the opposite… [ and the same with the pics in the book ]… if we dismiss what the author says, why bother asking for another bone to chew on.
            I have to go with what fenn says, what he saying and why he stated it.
            However, as you said “the hard part is figuring out what f meant, and it’s all not very consistent.” ~ welcome to my world ~ but that comment can’t be construed as anything else but ‘text’ in the book. But like I said, I can’t yet dismiss text about the pics.

            A pic or illustration like~ page 57 of young fenn walking bare foot I can’t see as a hint… even IF I think I see f fenn signature in the lower right hand corner of the grass that lines the road… can you see other words in the bushes and roadway?

            I have done what many here are still doing, but again, I have to listen to what fenn is saying or otherwise I’m going to see thousands of optical illusions in the hope to see a hint or clue.

          • Charlie,
            Here’s a thought, and falls in line with attempting to understand the after the fact comments. The hints in the book are not deliberately placed to aid me, I mean the seeker.
            Is the poem?

          • Seeker – IMO the hints in the book are very deliberately placed by f, however you won’t recognize them unless you actually solve a clue in the poem. Forrest has embedded the hints into his stories so well that you won’t recognize the connection until after a clue is solved. If you do spend time on reading his stories, I would suggest making a list of the odd things or mistakes that you find so that if you do solve a clue in the poem you can find confidence with the hints.

            F told us that there a couple of good hints in TTOTC. He absolutely told the truth, just not all of the truth. IMO there are many more than a couple of good hints.

            IMO Forrest took all those years from the time he was diagnosed with cancer till the date he actually put the book out to create a design that would work with the poem as the primary leg and the book filled with hints to provide confidence. Lastly a good map will complete the tools needed in order to move forward.

          • Allow me a moment here… SaaaaY WHaaaaaaaaT!? Have ya been nippin at the eggnog a little early?… ok , had to let off some steam.

            “There are hints in my book that will help you with the clues, but a clue will point you toward the treasure chest and a hint will just help you with the clues, if you can understand that.”
            “Here is what I would do. Read my book in a normal manner. Then read the poem over and over and over, slowly – thinking.  Then read my book again, this time looking for subtle hints that will**help solve**the clues.”
            .”…The treasure is there for the person who can find it and I think that person will be positive in their attitude and deliberate in their actions. No one has any secret information that will take them to the hiding place. **It’s in the poem for all to see.f”**
            “Get the Thrill of the Chase and read it; and then go back and read the poem, over and over and over again. And then go back and read the book again but slowly looking at every little abstract thing that might catch up in your brain, **that might be a hint that will “help” you with the clues.** Any part of some is better than no part of any. ” –

            All of the information you need to find the treasure is in the poem. The chapters in my book have very subtle hints but are **not deliberately placed to aid the seeker.**

            Ok HMA, my take is a hint helps with a clue, where you have an answer to a clue and a hint for confirmation.
            You say they are deliberately placed ~ but fenn says Nope.
            You said; there are many more than a couple. ok, this one is a bit vague to the scale of the book But how many more are you referring to? 5, 10, 50, 100? you mentioned SB as well ~ 160 plus more clues?
            Fenn also stated; “They don’t need to read my book, they need to read my poem, the book will help BUT they can find the treasure if the can dechiper the clues that are in the poem.”
            You said; “ Forrest took all those years from the time he was diagnosed with cancer till the date he actually put the book out to create a design that would work with the poem” …. Where did you hear this???
            Um.. not from what I have read about fenn writing the book. The poem about 15 years, and prior to the book, which was much later and only took a short amount of time. My guess was weeks to write the book [ I’m getting too lazy to find that quote ]
            Every thing you just posted HMA is completely opposite of what fenn said.

            You said; “IMO…he “actually” put the book out to create a design that would work with the poem…” Seriously just saying this in an opinion doesn’t even come close to what FF has stated.

            LOL Ken, yep a long winter.

          • HMA, is correct Seeker. I think you have yourself so wrapped up in all of FF quotes that you don’t even know witch ones to believe.
            Try putting one foot down and stepping on it sooner or later you’ll get the point or fall over trying.

          • JW,
            Can you show me anywhere a hint is used after deciphering a clue and only for confirmation of the clue?

            Hint;
            a slight or indirect indication or suggestion.
            suggest or indicate something indirectly or covertly.
            Clue;
            inform someone about a particular matter.
            a fact or idea that serves as a guide or aid in a task or problem
            Example; “archaeological evidence can give clues about the past”

          • Hi Seeker,
            I like the definition, but I will add that FF said “I placed hints in the book to help with clues of the poem.
            Yes FF said there are a few good hints in the book and few aberrations that live out on the edge.
            I will also add that could this mean that there are a few good hints and aberrations to each of the clues in the poem. Remember to tell the truth just not the whole truth.

            Just my opinion JW

            Good luck Seeker

          • JW ~ “I like the definition, but I will add that FF said “I placed hints in the book to help with clues of the poem.”
            Your wording is slightly off. or do you have that eat quote from fenn?
            above is one comment, here’s another;
            “There are also other subtle clues sprinkled in the stories.

            I don’t have your quote and couldn’t locate it.

            This has been a hot debate as to exactly what was meant by this comment. Some suggest more clues, but fenn only refers to clues in the poem, in all the after the fact comments, and hint in the book.

            However HMA used the clues to find the hint and the hints has confirmation… I have not seen anything that states to what he said that fenn stated it.
            On of my dilemmas has always been fenn calling everything a clue. Not in an outhouse or graveyard, clues. knocked out Idaho, Utah and Nevada, clues. But those are eliminating those places… a clue is supposed to get you closer.

            I’m all for a good debate / discussion involving clue vs hints… all I ask if for direct quote from fenn… so points can be argued with factual wording and not made up opinions on how we think we read it.

          • Get the Thrill of the Chase and read it; and then go back and read the poem, over and over and over again. And then go back and read the book again but slowly looking at every little abstract thing that might catch up in your brain, **that might be a hint that will “help” you with the clues.** Any part of some is better than no part of any. ”

            This is your post post from earlier Seeker.
            But I guess I’m “wrong”
            I’m up for helping someone out that wants the help.
            But I guess I will go about my solve.

            Good luck Seeker!

          • JW,
            I think the words that are puzzling on what is helpful in the book might be “not deliberately placed.”

            Some may think this means fenn intentionally added hint when he wrote the book, but didn’t place them in any order… forcing us to look for them.
            Some may think he wrote the book around the poem, leaving the book as having answers to the poem.
            Some may think the book was simply the avenue used to present the poem.
            Some may think the book has hints only because it relates to a certain point in fenn’s life… youth…family…military… flying…fishing…archeology…a particular state… even all the above etc.
            Some think you don’t need the book at all, other think the poem can’t be solved without it.

            These thoughts are all legitimate and necessary to think about. So, when I read an after the fact comment about the subject, I attempt to understand what fenn is implying, because I don’t want to take off on those tangents fenn warns us about.
            But more and more, the after the fact comments wordings are twisted by a poster in their own words, and their beliefs.

            You said, quoting fenn; “FF said “I placed hints in the book to help with clues of the poem.”
            While that may seem correct, I have never seen or heard that wording… it would make a great deal of difference to me if “I [fenn] ‘placed’ hints in the book to help…” compared to “not deliberately placed”

            With that said; If someone post a thought, opinion, idea, suggestion, quotes etc. I would think they would understand that by posting openly, someone else is going to add to that post, whether in agreement or not. But more and more, they seem to be taking those replies way too personal, especially if the exact wording of fenn’s quote is add in the rebuttal.

          • Seeker – I’ve been catching up on a lot of posts, I normally don’t have time to read the blog(s). Just want to say that I’m with you on this debate.

            Not deliberately placed means not deliberately placed.

            I believe the ‘hints’ in the book are details/places/happenings of ff’s life that relate to clues in the poem. Which IMO are mostly places.

            IMO the book(s) hold hints that are a confirmation of the clues. In other words, this can help but not needed to solve the poem.

          • Hi Rich,

            “Not deliberately placed means not deliberately placed.”

            But that’s not the whole quote. By taking it out of context, you may draw an incorrect conclusion. The hints were clearly deliberately placed by Fenn (obviously in my opinion since I’m not Forrest). But ask yourself this: if a mistake is obviously deliberate (such as inserting an apostrophe in Borders, or misspelling Richard Wetherill’s name twice, or confusing “For Whom the Bell Tolls” with “A Farewell to Arms”), and that mistake turns out to be a poem hint, then you’d have to agree that that hint was deliberately placed. So to believe otherwise would mean you think the mistakes are accidental or just Forrest “having fun” with us. But you’ll have to reconcile that explanation with statements that Forrest has made (someone can dig up the quote) to the effect that he isn’t trying to deliberately deceive anyone. In other words, no red herrings.

            The key part of the quote from Fenn you left out was “to aid the seeker.” So reread that quote from Fenn and pretend either the word “aid” or “seeker” is italicized.

          • Seeker, I must have misunderstood your posts. Yup, I believe the ‘mistakes’ in the books were put there on purpose to see if anyone notices them. Nothing to do with hints or clues.

          • Zap;

            From the “Cheat Sheet” there is the quote that you were looking for, “♦ “All of the information you need to find the treasure is in the poem. The chapters in my book have very subtle hints but are not deliberately placed to aid the seeker. Good luck in the search.”

            JDA

          • Hi JDA — no, the quote I meant is one where he says something about not trying to be deceptive with his statements or not deliberately intending to deceive anyone.

          • Hi again, Rich,

            “Yup, I believe the ‘mistakes’ in the books were put there on purpose to see if anyone notices them.”

            Okay, we at least agree on that score.

            “Nothing to do with hints or clues.”

            This is where you are gravely mistaken, IMO. Of course I can’t prove it to you without telling you the answer to one of the clues and showing you the multiple hints in the book that confirm it. But if you dig through the archives you can see my remarks about a tie-in between For Whom the Bells Tolls and the poem.

            Probably the main argument that people have against these “anomalies” being true hints is that they are utterly worthless to the searcher who hasn’t solved the clue that the hint eludes to. That’s how (I believe) Forrest is using the hints. They confirm; they don’t lead.

          • Zaphod ~”Forrest has made (someone can dig up the quote) to the effect that he isn’t trying to deliberately deceive anyone. In other words, no red herrings.”

            I agree with what you said “By taking it out of context, you may draw an incorrect conclusion.”

            “Mr. Hall asks: “Are there any false clues/red herrings intentionally laid within the poem?”
            No sir Mr. Hall.”

            Unless you’re talking about another quote [ there are a few others, so you may need to be more specific ]

            The red herrings was about the ‘poem’

            You said, ” …So to believe otherwise would mean you think the mistakes are accidental or just Forrest “having fun” with us…”

            Well, That is always a possibility. From listening to video at book signings and other public Q&A’s and thought from Preston and others who have made comments about the chest and fenn… it does seem that fenn would change things up just to get a reaction… hence the bells, for one example. “Knowlege”

            And this is my point exactly, how we can hear and read so many comment from not only fenn but friends, bloggers, interviewers reporters etc. Take the comment, like the red herrings and easily misconstrued, innocently twist it out of concept.

          • Thanks, Seeker — that was another one of the Fenn quotes I was trying to conjure up. And I see now that the false clue/red herring comment was specific to the poem, not the book. In other words, he ~could~ reserve the right to have red herrings in the book, though I think the Chase is hard enough that he’s unlikely to do so.

            So I see two main possibilities for reasons to put anomalies in the book:

            1. He’s just seeing if we’re paying attention, and in essence encouraging us not to believe everything we read;

            2. The anomalies (or some of them) are hint delivery mechanisms.

            Mind you, in my solution, not all of the book hints are in the form of mistakes or aberrations. But a lot are. And because of this, whenever I see an added or missing apostrophe, or a word that’s capitalized that shouldn’t be, or a clear misspelling, I take notice. It works for me; your mileage may vary.

            Well, That is always a possibility. From listening to video at book signings and other public Q&A’s and thought from Preston and others who have made comments about the chest and fenn… it does seem that fenn would change things up just to get a reaction… hence the bells, for one example. “Knowlege”

            And this is my point exactly, how we can hear and read so many comment from not only fenn but friends, bloggers, interviewers reporters etc. Take the comment, like the red herrings and easily misconstrued, innocently twist it out of concept.

          • “Not deliberately placed” … the clues or the chapters containing the clues?
            Could mean the clues are not in the consecutive order of the poem.
            Or, the mistakes/clues, are there “naturally” as part of the story …. not deliberately put and the story written to support the clue.

            Fenn-speak.

          • Zap,
            Both of us are on a fact finding mission, we just disagree on our findings, that’s ok, keeps us on our toes.
            As comments come out and years go on fenn changes some comment and they do be come clearer [ my example is the first two clues comment[s] over the years.

            Fenn has patience [ that has been proven for the 20 plus years he put into all this ] and sometime we jump the gun on one comment, and maybe, what we should do is wait for others to see if are original thought pans out… hoping for some clarification.

            I’d like to add OS2 recent comment which could be valid as well:
            “Could mean the clues are not in the consecutive order of the poem.
            Or, the mistakes/clues, are there “naturally” as part of the story”

            [note; consecutive order of the poem / If I get OS2 correct… that could mean the clue/hints in the book are not matching clue order 1 to 2 to 3 etc, in the poem, but a hint /clue for clue 1 might be in chapter 10… hope i got that correct ]

            IMO, the poem is fenn’s baby… dedicated to his perfection.
            The book was written simply as is memoirs and to present the poem… hints for the poem may have come naturally within the stories, and while fenn feels they could be helpful… they may not be needed at all. But like fenn implied on one Q&A …a little of something is better than nothing.

  15. Hey ANoN,
    let me just bravo & welcome [back?] to the chase. Lord knows we could use a fresh set of ideas around here, how I was dreading another long winter’s discussion over the freezing point of water. I can’t take credit for TCM9C that was my brother’s idea, been the only name I’ve used going on 4 yrs.
    Not here to contest anything you’ve said or books you’ve read, it’s just sometimes big, long rambling comments are off-putting, that’s all.
    I knew absolutely zip from the start, but like you said, “he has pushed us”. Bottom line- I believe you have to take everything f communicates with a healthy dose of skepticism. He conjurers up a story, knowing it will provoke an emotion in us and we rush without a seconds hesitation to chime in, post our comment. He’s a brilliant fibber is all, I think he plays the “old man card” perfectly

    A good example is the Bonnie & Clyde SB. Maybe Wikipedia isn’t the foremost reference authority, but sufficient enough to expose said tale as imaginary….. IMO
    Evidently there was a wealth of material I never got around to viewing, too busy chasing x’s and asterisks on a map. Same with his last 2 sets of video interviews from HoD, just watched them over the last 10 days..

    • Thanks 9clues ,

      I have so many questions . I always have one . Even when I think I am on a great big shinny clue.

      Being that I do not see things quite the way others do , some things I think I will keep to my self , no disrespect.
      Please share if you would like
      1. Why would f say ” The only thing is I survived ?”

      2. How was f going to in 1988 tell the world he was hiding the chest?
      2.a – The poem ?
      2.b- TTOTC?
      3. Where was he going to leave said poem to find his chest?
      4. ” The poem will lead you to it , but the book by it’s self will not.” What ?

      My goal is to think like him . See the things in the poem the way he did . One of my tricks is to think while I am out on the Search – is to think he is there kind of reading me the poem – I know it sounds funny =P
      But try it . Look at the surroundings and think – was Forrest Fenn here , why do I thing he was? And before the next Chase you go on you will think twice . Only to be sure your data is good. Then when you get home the next Chase you go on you will think three-times before you leave , knowing your last info was incorrect. After a few dozen times of you doing that – you’ll start to think a lot different . I am sure a few of you can understand this. So I will not leave until I see the blaze first . I think I have , vivid in a sense .

      Mike and Heather

  16. That moment in a long distance endeavor when you realize there is no one else to catch and you have the field all to yourself. The peace and quiet that befalls you is intoxicating.

    LitterateOne

    • That moment when you realize that you have the field all to yourself because you are in last place and there is no one else to catch you. The peace and quiet that befalls you leads you to get intoxicated.

      • Lol… Or that moment when you realize that you have the field all to yourself because you are at the wrong field. 🙂 The peace and quiet that befalls you leads you to get intoxicated 🙂

        • LOL – my team did this on our first search. We overshot our area by about 4-5 miles. Realizing we couldn’t be in the right spot, because we would have found the landmarks we were searching for sooner….we had to backtrack and once we did this, we found the location. Crazy as it was, we really weren’t focused, but more excited to even be out there in the wild.

          Good times!

          :o)

          • Yes Tim, that’s the best intoxication of all! IF I get to go out there again that’s what I’m looking forward to the most!
            Someone posted a fabulous video the other day that illustrates this beautifully. I can’t remember who it was at the moment or I would share the link.

    • The lead dog is a lone wolf, others are just chasing their and others tails.

      LitterateOne

    • That is so great you are so far out in front. Please post a picture of the chest, and especially the bracelet that you have in your possession. That way we can all be intoxicated. 🙂

      • Sparrow,

        I won’t, a wise one knows the value of the trove is greatly diminished if it is not whole. she is an investment.

        LitterateOne

        • I didn’t ask you to separate or sell anything, just to take a photo so we can all rejoice with you, and congratulate you on your find. Since you are so far in front of the crowd I just thought you might want to toss a few crumbs to the lowly mob below you.

    • Taunting is always a sign that winter is here, and it seems that some just can’t keep it in check…I can see expressing excitement about one’s solve, but to set oneself apart from the rest is just absurd. Fenn is still THE lead dog in this Chase. Quite likely he will continue to be for a longgggg time. Good luck to you…and you might want to get a designated driver for the long drive home…

    • LitterateOne – Since you joined the chase again I wondered if NM was the state you are searching now.

    • Confidence in one’s solve is wonderful. I do wonder if you know where everyone else is searching to prove you are the only one there.

  17. Sparrow on December 6, 2016 at 7:06 pm said:

    Kedars mom—-

    I applaud you. To know you have all nine clues figured out must be a good feeling. Are you going to retrieve the treasure this year, or waiting until next year?

    Hola Sparrow.

    It’s not a good feeling, it just leaves you nettled if you can’t go and retrieve it. An artful hide. Good things are worth waiting for….2017. : )

  18. seeker—-

    From your post above:

    Mr. Hall asks: “Are there any false clues/red herrings intentionally laid within the poem?”
    No sir Mr. Hall.”

    I shared this and it was brushed off the last time—but I have always been intrigued by the fact that Forrest leaves out the proper punctuation from his response to Mr. Hall. This seems to indicate that there may indeed be a red herring in the poem—and it could be the punctuation itself. Just wanted to add that as it came back to my memory when I saw your post.

    • The lack of the comma doesn’t bother me. just like the D missing in knowledge… fenn is a character of his own. I think its more habit that he does things like this… just to get folks to say, huh? He think enjoy getting a rise out of folks on the simplest things we does.
      In fact, some of his comments say basically the same. deliberately misspelling words etc.

      LOL, but I have a loose buck that says someone will comment on how the missing [ , ] means something to their solve.

      • Wow was this line screwed up!
        ” He think enjoy getting a rise out of folks on the simplest things we does. ” I meant to say….

        Naaa I’ll just leave it as is.

        • @Seeker

          IMHO, Fenn lays it all down on the line. IMHO, it’s all there in Black and White. Turn by Turn, where to begin, and when to stop, leading the searcher right up to the treasure chest. As for his punctuation, he’s a poet, and that’s the style in which he chooses to write, I don’t see anything there in the way he writes trying to mislead the searcher. And, he’s from TEXAS (the Southwest), we all speak a certain way down here, different, I think, than the rest of the country. In my dealings with the poem there doesn’t seem to be anything tricky about it…anything misleading about it…or anything hidden about it. It’s all there, it just takes a little digging to find all of the truths laid out for us by Fenn himself.

          • The beauty of people’s languages from all 50 states and to hear the accents, speed for which they speak, slangs, etc. is amazing. I would like to include across the world, too.

        • From the book? I doubt if I would consider that. Misspelling of Wetherill might be more intriguing. I have close to a hundred books on my shelve and many in a kindle… I can find more than one mistakes in every one… bypassing editing, proof readers, and printing.
          Those are not what I call aberrations; meaning “something different.”

          The again, I have looked into the capital letter in the poem, when most just consider them as a poetic common form.
          But everyone concentrates on the capital letter in the middle of a sentence.

          Is this similar to what fenn might consider an aberration. Maybe the thought here was to get the word Brown the attention or maybe, it was to get the attention of the common usage of capital letters at the beginning of each line [and not a sentence].

          HMMM! You just gave me a thought I never considered before… If it pans out, a few gold pacers might be coming your way. Just because…

          • Seeker – Forgive my slow response. I was hitting the eggnog pretty hard! 🙂

            You are more than welcome to discount something as simple as a missing apostrophe, however it just may be very important. In my book it speaks volumes.

            In TTOTC and in different videos, Forrest has told us what a terrible student he was. I would say that because of this, there are probably a good number of searchers that would attribute his mistakes in the book to just that. A kid who barely graduated from high school and only a few days of college would cause some to think he must just make mistakes because he doesn’t know any better. Forrest knows very well what he is doing when he makes a mistake in his writings. Very, very well.

            I have shown some of the simple mistakes to people who weren’t involved in the chase. They either miss the mistakes because they are so subtle or they say it’s just horrible writing. I’m sure f sits back and smiles when he gets correspondence from searchers who say similar things. When he is sitting back and smiling you must also remember that he knows the “answers.”

            For a kid from Texas who barely made it through school he sure knows how to disguise things in plain sight. I’ve seen a number of searchers give f credit for being a genius when they think they have solved the poem. In fact I was one of those before I changed courses. Little did I know that what I considered to be genius then doesn’t do justice to what f really created. If you can solve the first clue and find hints that correlate with the first clue you will begin to understand the level of genius too.

          • HearMeAll,

            I have a hard time [egg type or not lol] thinking fenn was a below average grade student because of not learning or not capable etc. [wishing for D’s ] Personally I think he was bored, had to much adventure built up inside, to sit idol in a class room…and why he would sneak out when possible or make marble during class etc.

            I can image in the 30’s a young boy waking up and hitting the woods, streams, mountains without a word to the parents and be gone all day… in the 40’s at age 15ish he and Donnie took off on an excursion to find the L&C trail with nothing more than abed roll, a rifle and a few candy bars [ I think for a couple of weeks ] Buying an archeology dig site and expertly excavating it.
            The man has shown a great deal of knowledge for math, yet claims he was never good at it. Became a pilot and a navigator, self taught in archeology and can stand with the best in the field. Heavily in museum. A successful and never study/educated art dealer, as most have done in the business, and could stand with them on their level or more in the business.

            I agree with you on this statement;
            “Forrest knows very well what he is doing when he makes a mistake in his writings. Very, very well.”

            But something dealing with a comma or apostrophe etc… how do you get that passed the editing, proof reading, and printing without a lot of questions. I don’t recall who did the editing and such, but I recall a pic of fenn and the editor and fenn’s wife Peggy going over the book [ if I recall that correctly ]
            Wouldn’t these types off mistakes raise a red flag to many working on the book? I can see fenn telling an editor to leave a word the way he wants it, a sentence or even page numbers or lack of… but punctuation? deliberate misspellings? without some kind of reasoning… why bother with editing at all if this was true?

            The poem however is a different thing. No editing required, freedom of word choices and punctuation… complete, 100% control. And no questions B needin answering.

            Folks can believe what they like. But I like to take my thought process a bit further than just saying… there should be a comma here ~ it as to be a clue.

          • Seeker said:”I don’t recall who did the editing and such, but I recall a pic of fenn and the editor and fenn’s wife Peggy going over the book [ if I recall that correctly ]”

            Seeker-
            I believe you recall incorrectly. The only image like that is of Peggy, the book producer, Forrest, and his designer going over the layout for TFTW and discussing it. I filmed that sequence in Forrest’s Kitchen and the video is in one of the “Gone Fishing” videos posted on this blog. Forrest did not use an editor for either of his memoirs…although he did share some of the stories as they were being written with his trusted friends for comments. In another video on this blog Forrest talks about mistakes vs errors in his books. He points out how he used punctuation in rule breaking ways in one of his other books.

            I think the takeaway from those interviews is that Forrest makes up his own rules when he can; no surprise there. Punctuation rules have never been something he’s adhered to. That is one of the reasons he did not choose to have an editor on his memoirs. He did use an editor on his Gaspard book.

            I think there are certainly keys to understanding Forrest by paying attention to the way he uses words and punctuation. But I wouldn’t necessarily insist that this rule breaking from Forrest is meant to give out clues or hints.

            You might remember that Forrest admitted to several typos in TFTW shortly after it was published. This triggered an idea for a contest to see who could come up with the longest list of typos from TFTW. In the end we didn’t hold that contest. But it did cause Forrest to mention that he was surprised that no one had noticed one of his unintended clues in the book…which he later admitted was omitting Canada off the map.

            These books are Forrest’s memoirs and they contain not just miscellaneous stories from his life but also readers can discover traits that make him interesting and unique. His avoidance of many writing “rules” is certainly one of his more whimsical traits. He always tries to do things his own way…not necessarily adhere to the rules just because someone else decided that’s the way things should be.

            It’s a safe way to demonstrate defiance. No one will come and arrest you for breaking punctuation rules.

          • Seeker –
            You are very well versed with recalling f quotes so I’m surprised that you did not know that he owns his own publishing company. It is called the One Horse Land and Cattle Co.. That means that f is the editor, proof reader, chief, and whatever else you wish. He did have help with drawings, and adding things to give his book a unique feel so that it would feel like a scrapbook. He had the final say on everything. The only thing he did not control was the printing. He had to pay another company to print the book.

            In regards to f being a bad student, he wasn’t lying. If you watch the videos that Dal has made throughout the years, f shows one of his report cards that show just how bad he was. I did wonder before I watched that video if he might be stretching the truth but he really was a student that barely made it through school.

            You are right that Forrest had control over his poem. He also had control over the book and other books he has published. Have you ever watched the vidoes that Dal has made and that are posted on this site? If not they are worth the time it takes to watch them.

          • Hearmeall,
            Maybe you could do me a favor, if you have the book, and see who is listed as editor? I never looked to be honest, but I know he had one.

            Has far as the publishing company, yep knew all about it… same for the D on the report card and forging his dad signature on at least one. All great stories walking down memory lane. Do you think I just jumped into the challenge yesterday?

            “That means that f is the editor, proof reader, chief, and whatever else you wish.”
            Ok, sure.

          • Seeker,

            Well, I had to blow the dust off as I haven’t opened it in over 2 years. (It’s a good read, but as far as the Poem/clues, I wish I could forget it when researching something….. Everything I look at could be tied to something in the book, on one level or another) 🙂

            There is no listing for an “editor”. My book is Third Printing.

          • Thanks for looking Loco… while I got you here… do you remember [ I think on one of Toby’s podcast ] fenn talking about his editor or maybe editors in general, and wasn’t there a SB with a pic of fenn, Peggy and the editor sitting at their kitchen table.
            I’ve been looking through the SB’s but nothing yet. I’d like to read it again… thought you might know off the top of your head.
            PS. Goofy or Dal… is it possible, and if it’s not too much work, to have the Titles and Dates of the SB’s add to the numbers… in the SB thread?
            Just a thought.

          • Seeker wrote:
            “PS. Goofy or Dal… is it possible, and if it’s not too much work, to have the Titles and Dates of the SB’s add to the numbers… in the SB thread?”

            Seeker- Possible – yes. Likely – no.
            The posting dates are all part of the URL of the page. So when you open the post look up at the address bar and you’ll see the date it was posted.

            For instance:
            http://dalneitzel.com/2013/03/26/scrapbook-twenty-eight/
            is the url or address for Scrapbook 28. It contains the date it was posted… March 26th, 2013.

          • I THINK there are many other things that can point to hints as well. I’ve found some interesting coincidences in my research.

          • Thanks Loco,
            Not the one I had in mind. This one was the designer discussion… I swear there is a still pic of an editor sitting in the chair Peggy and Forrest were in this video and those two sat where the woman designer was…. now it’s driving me nuts… lol on a mission.

            Wouldn’t ya like to know what the other [ not finished ] books are about? I wonder if fenn would be willing to write up a scrape-book about those.

          • LOL, Dal / fenn could create a contest out of the mystery books… ‘Guess the contents’ winner gets to read the manuscripts…

          • Geez Seeker!! Did you WATCH that video??

            At about 3:50 is the scene you are talking about…..c’mon guy, it’s only about a five minute vid.

            🙂 …….loco

          • locolobo, are you able to provide the link to the video? I remember watching it. Mr. and Mrs. Fenn, another woman and a man were at the table discussing the layout for “Too Far To Walk”. I’ll keep trying to find it.

          • WY Girl — replying to your question about potential book hints:

            “But the problem is how can we TELL what is a coincidence and what is not?”

            The short answer is: redundancy. If there is only a single instance of a match between what one thinks is a poem clue answer and a word, phrase or illustration in the book, then you can write it off to coincidence. If there are 2 matching hints in the book, then it becomes somewhat interesting; if there are *7* hints to the same clue, all different (as I have found for the first clue), then it’s not a coincidence any longer.

          • Loco,
            The video you posted is the designer and producer… again thanks for that.
            The one I’m looking for is with the editor at the same table. [might be a pic in one of the SB books. and I think fenn mentioned his editor in a video.

            A producer is similar to a publisher… at least in my understanding of the two. I’ll need to check out Toby’s podcast… just don’t have the time to rummage through a couple hours of them right now… Tis the season Seeker’s Honeydew list is at its max.

            Thanks again for looking this video up…

          • locolobo, didn’t pay attention to the link you had already provided. It is the same one I was thinking of. Thank you.

          • Seeker,

            Well, in that case I fear that I can provide you no assistance.

            I do not recall: “The one I’m looking for is with the editor at the same table. [might be a pic in one of the SB books. and I think fenn mentioned his editor in a video.”

            But, if do find it, be a sport and post it for us. And, Good Luck!!

          • Seeker – In the video that loco posted the link for, I saw the editor. He was sitting in the chair with his wife. As far as the book goes there is no mention of who the editor is but I will bet you one hard biscuit that the editor is Forrest. Follow me for a moment if you will. Editors typically work for publishing companies. Forrest owns his publishing company. Why would he need to hire anyone to edit his writing? IMO he doesn’t. He has told us the poem says exactly what he wanted it to say. I think that goes for the book too. The book is a tool that can help by providing confirmation which will build confidence that one has solved a clue or clues. If you still think that someone other than f was the editor for TTOTC, I want you to ask yourself a question. Why did the editor not catch the many mistakes and correct them?

            Not all hints in the book are mistakes, but a good many are.

          • Hearmeall,
            I reviewed a few videos on Toby’s site… Fenn talks about Lou and Sue [producer and designer for the books ] as collaborator [nothing about an editor ]… Lou Bruno calls himself a creative director … So I may have been mistaken as to an actual editor being involved after reviewing this video. [ but i’m still looking lol ]
            approx. 6 min… each of my books I made up words, and I looked in the dictionary to make sure its not there. My argument is, if I use a word and a reader knows exactly what I’m talking about, then who cares what the word is…

            These would be a deliberate action on fenn’s part… So here we are back to the book vs. all the information to find the treasure is in the poem. [ which I think is important for this conversation ]

            A couple comments fenn made about the hints;
            “There are hints in my book that will help you with the clues, but a clue will point you toward the treasure chest and a hint will just help you with the clues, if you can understand that.”
            And
            “All of the information you need to find the treasure is in the poem. The chapters in my book have very subtle hints but are not deliberately placed to aid the seeker. Good luck in the search. f”

            How do we get around these comments as to, how and why the hints are in the book.
            For a punctuation incorrectly used, missing, and is considered to be a hint, for being helpful with a clue… that is completely deliberate, just like deliberately making up words.

            These types of deliberate mistake, in my mind~ would be deliberate ‘to aid’ the reader ~ deliberately placed to do just that [ no matter where they appear within the book ]… there would have to be a forethought by the author, and that would show intent… and the only intent for a known/deliberate mistake in the book would have to be an aid factor… IF… it is actually usable for a clue.

            Two thoughts come to mind;
            1. a simple error, typo etc. [ not unlike answers vs. answer ]
            2. Fenn left errors or deliberately made errors just to get a reaction of the readers. [ not unlike his explanation for Knowledge, misspelled on the bells and jars]

          • Seeker – This idea has been stated many different ways but I’m going to attempt it again so that you might understand how I see things.

            The poem of all poems – The poem is critical and does contain clues just like f has stated and yes they will take a searcher closer to the treasure chest. The clues are not at all easy to solve, however they aren’t so hard that it’s off the charts hard.

            The book – If you think you have solved a clue in the poem, how might you know? How might you move forward with confidence? F has stated that you can move with confidence. There has to be a way to confirm that a clue or clues that you think you have solved are correct and not leading you on a wild goose chase. IMO, in order to do so he has provided us with the book. This is why his writing style works so well. IMO one could use just the poem to walk to the chest, however it might take more time and money than any of us have in order to rule things out because you wouldn’t have the confidence needed to follow the correct path. IMO the hints are deliberately put in the stories in order to confirm the clues in the poem. The hints are deliberate but not easy to find either. Only when you have solved a clue will you make the connection with hints and then you will have your confidence. The hints are good enough to that you will celebrate in some fashion. Whether it’s a whoop and holler, a little dance, a parade, or a big grin, you will ask yourself why you didn’t see it beforehand.

            A map – IMO a good map is of importance. The right map can provide you with even more confidence.

          • Dal,
            Thanks for the comments on the editing and such.
            I did post farther below your post, something to the same effect, after reviewing Toby’s videos… and add my thoughts and explanations about the use of punctuation’s or misuse of.
            As to the SB suggestion… I see the Dates and Titles on ‘each SB thread’. I was Inquiring about the thread with the ‘list’ of SB’s having no titles, only their order by number. I thought it would be easier to look up/search a particular SB if those ‘listings’ had a title to go with it…
            Example; Scrapbook hundred fifty…
            ‘FORREST INTERVIEW ON NPR’

            Not complaining… just a thought.

          • Seeker et al
            Up thread quite away, much talk about [errors] as pertaining to spelling and punctuation. I think Dal laid it right out there plain and simple. I remember a ton of discussion early on in regards to mistakes which I think spurred Fenn into commenting about them. My recollection is that he said that some were intentional just to see if someone noticed them. Like Dal, I believe that Forrest loves to push the envelope and break some rules just because he can. Whether spelling or punctuation, it adds to the mystery and is a great lead in to understanding what makes this guy tick. So, I guess that puts me in your #2(above) believer. However; always the however when discussing this guy(fenn), I have found a couple of oddities in his spelling and punctuation that could be hinting at a couple of things in my interpretation of his poem. Clue/hint vs hint/clue is kind of like the poem/book vs book/poem debacle. I say it is all relevant until proven otherwise….

          • Hearmeall,
            In all honestly, for this conversation, many things you say are plausible [ for that fact is we just don’t know.. that is part of this challenge ].
            I just don’t happen to agree with some aspect of those.

            But you bring up the map, which I considered to be one of the first things anyone would have done after the poem the very first time. Common sense dictates to look at a map[s].
            Fenn has used the wordings, a map is a map the more detailed a map the better… used~a good map, used~GE, used~ correct map.

            Lets step away from the book for a sec. We read the poem and grabbed our maps to have a look… Is a map nothing more than ‘markers’ indicating what is on the maps? [ canyons, waters, woodlands etc. and what is a Blaze ~ a marker indicating a point or direction, or what something is, right?
            [ all in their simplest terms ]

            Are we looking for individual points or could what we need to see is, an optical allusion of sorts. Not unlike the marble in the bathroom. What details are we truly needing?

            My point is; Just like details on the map, the book may have those same types of details… looking at the book as factual as a map is, but differently as to imagination. I have a difficult time thinking pics and punctuation and illustrations by another hold all these hundreds of clues/hints… Not that it’s not possible… just in my opinion highly unlikely because of ALL those possibilities.

            Is this challenge nothing more than trying every conceivable option available and only to have the correct solution solvable by hundreds of different searches?

            I’m looking for that ” what took me so long ” understanding. That certainty of the path beforehand idea. That “imagination” quality… the important possibility we all seem to be overlooking.
            IMO, and that’s just me… deliberate, forethought, intentional, and/or typos don’t fall inline with the suggestion fenn has given us.

            Don’t get me wrong HMA, your comments are well read by me for thoughts [ this conversation we’re having should explain that ]
            We see things differently, But I’m trying to be very careful not to jump to a conclusion without some type of fact finding… I use the after the fact comment to help with that.

            I look at the book with fenn’s aberrations in mind… fenn’s definition; “something different” and not so much something that is deliberate in action… that would fall under deliberately aiding a searcher.

          • Thanks Jakester!!

            I was aware that a banner was popping up down there peripherally but had never paid attention to it…..never too old to learn, what a dummy , huh!!! LOL!! 🙂

          • No prob loco,
            Who ever said you can’t teach an old dog new tricks?
            That person should be shot.
            Nevermind, he’s been dead for hundreds of years.

            Some dogs forgot more tricks than I’ll ever know.

          • Seeker –

            “In all honestly, for this conversation, many things you say are plausible [ for that fact is we just don’t know.. that is part of this challenge ].
            I just don’t happen to agree with some aspect of those.”

            Understood. I didn’t consider a different point of view till I had exhausted the area that hooked me from the beginning. I do applaud you for at least considering there might be something else to consider.

            “But you bring up the map, which I considered to be one of the first things anyone would have done after the poem the very first time. Common sense dictates to look at a map[s].
            Fenn has used the wordings, a map is a map the more detailed a map the better… used~a good map, used~GE, used~ correct map.”

            I think we agree about a map. I didn’t list the map second because the map with the book, IMO, are both valuable tools and to discount either one might make the chase last for longer than anyone of us has the time for.

            “Lets step away from the book for a sec. We read the poem and grabbed our maps to have a look… Is a map nothing more than ‘markers’ indicating what is on the maps? [ canyons, waters, woodlands etc. and what is a Blaze ~ a marker indicating a point or direction, or what something is, right?”
            [ all in their simplest terms ]

            A good detailed map would have markers or places to be considered IMO. If one has the correct map it will be evident when you use in conjunction with the poem.

            “Is this challenge nothing more than trying every conceivable option available and only to have the correct solution solvable by hundreds of different searches?”

            If you have time to burn and more than one lifetime to spend searching for the treasure then you can try to exhaust the endless possibilities for solving the poem. If you don’t have that much time there is another way.

            “I’m looking for that ” what took me so long ” understanding. That certainty of the path beforehand idea. That “imagination” quality… the important possibility we all seem to be overlooking.
            IMO, and that’s just me… deliberate, forethought, intentional, and/or typos don’t fall inline with the suggestion fenn has given us.”

            It took me about 8 months to adjust my thinking before I could see a clue and the hints associated with the clue. It’s not easy but definitely doable.

            “I look at the book with fenn’s aberrations in mind… fenn’s definition; “something different” and not so much something that is deliberate in action… that would fall under deliberately aiding a searcher.”

            If you are serious about searching for the treasure then you have to be willing to make adjustments from the way you might typically think. My advice is to go back to the poem because without the clues the hints will not mean anything.

        • Hear me all, on your question to seeker about the missing apostrophe, did you mean in the book or in the poem? it seems the conversation was about the book but I’m not sure if that is what you were referring to.

        • OZ10,
          I wasn’t talking about any particular comma… just the overall placement of them and any punctuation use wrongly used, an editor would question that.
          I’m just trying to be thorough… about what could or could not be hints in the book.

  19. I cant really buy into a missing apostrophe being purposefully placed in a sentene or a missing coma meaning anything either. Theyre just mistakes made by a very poor student in school.

    • Good one Sparrow. Are you channeling Seeker or FF or both? Love ya man (Seeker) but you could do with an editor. Please don’t take offense but It is really hard (speaking for myself) to sift thru your very well thought out but difficult to interpret comments due to the excessive spelling and punctuation errors. Those errors can and do change the intended meaning of your message and confuse the reader. Hopefully this isn’t your intent, but we certainly can’t be sure and those very errors cause one to question the motive and content of the message.

      • I think a lot of people don’t notice the small mistakes in spelling and punctuation when they write unless they go back later and read it and sometimes not even then. I know I’m one of those people. I try to get things correct but I’m sure I make a lot of unintended mistakes especially when I’m trying to get thoughts down in “ink” for the first time. If I make ” mistakes” on purpose I try to make it pretty clear.
        I don’t know if that’s the same for others or not.

        • RE: punctuation and spelling inaccuracies, in general terms. Causes might be are are not limited to ..intentional, lack of attention to detail, don’t know any better , not concerned about audience interpretation, don’t care. Only the first would apply to Mr Fenn, in my opinion. Everything he says and does is well thought out and intentional.

          • Definitely get that Sandy! It’s a matter of the reader paying enough attention to the details to understand that a hint is possibly being offered ( or more of a confirmation when it comes to the book(s) )
            Haha, don’t have any idea if the above was the correct punctuation in that instance.

          • With some limited experience myself in small press publishing, I have to say that many of us here are seriously underestimating the frequency and the causes of unintentional errors that can and do occur.

            I’ll leave it at that, except to suggest a measurable, statistical test. Check other (non-Chase related) publications by the same author and press for errors, and compare the frequency and type to those encountered in TTotC.

            Not a simple undertaking of course, but until someone does it, it’s much harder to argue for the significance of errors encountered in this one single closely-studied text.

            K

      • Sandy– that was my very intent. I purposefully left out commas, misspelled sentence and comma (coma) to illustrate that these things indeed may be purposefully done. I believe Forrest knows exactly what he is doing, and most of the punctuation errors we see are intentional.

          • Sandy–had to re-read your post. I read it too fast the first time and missed the meaning. 🙂

          • Jake – Yes you could attribute the mistakes to old age if one was losing their mind. I tend to think that Forrest is still sound of mind. I also believe that f had Dal do not just 1 but 2 videos where he talks about mistakes because it is of importance. You are welcome to believe differently though.

            If a searcher is able to figure out a clue in the poem and make the connection with hint’s in the Book, which may be mistakes, there won’t even be a freckle of doubt.

          • HMA,
            I did say “most” of the mistakes – be getting old.
            I just have a hard time believing a deliberate error in his books could hold a hint to a clue in the poem considering “deliberate” is intentional & would aid the seeker.

            Why would he lie?

            You guys can fool yourselves all you want & find & see these deliberate errors as hints, but I would caution against it considering what he said & you said “I tend to think that Forrest is still sound of mind”.
            He has been slipping every year just like most of us…..

          • I don’t buy it. His age is a smokescreen. I still say he wakes up and does 500 push-ups, and walks 50 miles before he goes to sleep. And he has the brain of a college professor.

          • Jake – Fair enough. You see it one way and I see it another. That’s one of the many things that make the thrill of the chase so much fun.

            Forrest did not lie. The hints in the book won’t aid a seeker unless they have solved a clue in the poem. It’s that simple. Or that complicated depending upon the mirror that you are looking in.

            I know a number of people in their 80’s and 90’s that are sound of mind. Are you suggesting that Forrest might be slipping and that he may start giving out answers to the clues soon?

          • HMA: “The hints in the book won’t aid a seeker unless they have solved a clue in the poem.”
            “they have solved a clue in the poem”
            Please explain. Who or what is they?
            The hints or the seeker?
            I think you may be slipping….

          • Jake – Let me see if I, meaning me, can make this clear enough to understand.

            When I said “they” I was referring to searchers. No hidden meanings or subterfuge.

            Here’s another way that might make more sense. If you, Jake, can solve a clue in the poem, then the hints in the book will stand out like a sore thumb. Solve a clue in the poem and find confirmation in the book with hint/s, which are really clever by the way. It’s not a walk in the park to make the connections, but if you do, you will understand.

          • Hi Hma,
            Please make yourself comfortable on that couch right over there & lay down to get relaxed.
            So when did you start having these backward… delusional episodes?
            As in most of these cases I handle, your childhood probably has something to do with this… problem.

            So, let me get this straight (jacket), you have to figure the clues in the poem & then confirm them with the book?

            Is this not like letting the cart pull the horses?

            There is no confirmation unless you have the chest period.
            You, zap & no one have confirmation whatsoever.
            We are all speculators when we think we have figured something out.
            I do respect your POV, but you guys are not sure just like everyone else.

          • I like your lateral thinking Jake, and (personally) believe that it’s vital in solving this mystery.
            (what better way to hide something in plain sight, than to use the ‘obvious’ to distract us from the true solution)

            ..not just a purdy face, that’s fur shur.
            🙂

          • Jake – Be my guest if you want to approach things from an angle that is different from mine. Like you said nobody has proof until the chest is found.

            “You, zap & no one have confirmation whatsoever.”

            Who is no one? I don’t remember that name on this blog. JK! Thought I would have a bit of fun since you seem to be very serious with your reply.

            When the correct solution for solving the poem is made known I envision some searchers needing a couch to collapse on. I do appreciate the couch for now because with all the connections between the poem and the book I need a little time to rest.

          • Hma,
            That 12 letter “C” word scares me ever since I received confirmation as a child in that religion.
            It would have served me better if I was given a piece of Willow tree bark to get rid of the headache they created.

            The word derives from confirm & we cannot confirm any of the clues or hints until it is found.

            Go take some aspirin & get some rest.

          • Jake – Do you have anything stronger than aspirin to offer? I cut my thumb off. Like all the way through the bone. Not kidding!

          • Hear me all, I’m not sure if you’re joking about your finger possibly being amputated. If it has, wrap it in cloth/paper towel and put it in a plastic bag. Then, put that bag on ice and get to the hospital right away.

          • Jake – I appreciate your kindness and consoling words. I’m okay. What is left of my thumb does get cold easily though.

            I really did cut my thumb off. It just happened in 2007, not tonight. The reason that I put that post up was to make a point. Fenn told us that at a young age he learned to tell the truth but not always all of the truth. One, meaning a searcher, must keep in the back of their mind when following his comments, videos, or stories.

            An example of Fenn being truthful is that he said there are a couple of good hints in TTOTC. That is true, however he didn’t elaborate and say there are many which there are. I love his style which include the truth and his mistakes.

            If you don’t agree that is fine. No hurt feelings here. Enjoy the chase.

          • Hma,
            I agree that most people don’t tell the whole truth for different reasons.
            Forrest is no different.

            So he has said there are hints sprinkled, there a couple of good hints, so that tells me that some of the sprinkled hints are not that good & 2 of them are good.

            Are those 2 good enough to give confirmation?
            I don’t think so.

            How about the sprinkled hints that are not good. What are they?
            They are not good, so maybe they are mediocre & if this is the case then we would have to be looking at areas that are nearby or maybe mentioning a state or general area which would be a mediocre hint.

            How else can mediocre hints be interpreted if not an area?
            I would like some input from anyone on this one.

            Keep your thumb up.

          • pdenver – My apologies for causing you to think that I cut my thumb off tonight. It happened in 2007. I was using that as an example of telling the truth, just not all of truth for Jake.

            Again I apologize for any misunderstandings. It was a poor analogy on my part.

          • Hi Jake,

            You wrote, “So he has said there are hints sprinkled, there a couple of good hints, so that tells me that some of the sprinkled hints are not that good & 2 of them are good.”

            An alternate interpretation is that a couple hints are totally smack-you-upside-the-head barnstormer hints, and the others are more understated. So how many hints in a sprinkle? I think of sprinkle as decidedly more than 4 or 5.

            “Are those 2 good enough to give confirmation?
            I don’t think so.”

            They are. They’re that blatant.

            So you’re wondering what a subtle (in your words “not good” or “mediocre”) hint might involve. The “For Whom the Bells Toll” error is an example of a subtle hint. I think you would agree that it’s not telling ~you~ anything, right? Therefore it’s subtle.
            Same goes for Border’s, Borders and borderline biddies. A curiosity to most, but nothing more. Two identical postmark stamps out of 20. Anomalous, but innocuous enough. Deliberately altering the days of the week for all the postmarks that have legible dates; just checking if we’re paying attention? A lifelong fisherman spelling caddis wrong twice. An art dealer and archaeologist spelling Wetherill wrong twice. But if you want to believe these and a dozen other examples I could mention are all much ado about nothing, that’s certainly your choice. But if you don’t see any obvious hints in TTOTC that support your solution, I should think that might give you pause.

          • Zap,
            You say: “They are. They’re that blatant.”
            I say: Prove it….
            Unfortunately there is only one way to do this & you have not done that.

            Your thought “For Whom the Bells Toll” – BTFTW – is interesting but lacks proof as well & why would we have to rescramble the letters to make it work? We can do this for multiple lines in the poem & books & think we have something a million times.

            Now if the postmark stamps were a hint, then the 1st people to know this would be the designer’s, LOL.

            I think the bottom line with the misspellings is that he still conveyed the story quite well & we understood was he was trying to say.

            One more thought. If he was going to deliberately place errors in his books as hints, don’t you think it would be too easy to figure these out?

          • Zaphod,
            This is all hypothetical for thought;
            Should a misspelled word be in the book, that’s one thing to consider as useful or a hint. But when it come to drawing [ illustrations done by an artist, photo-chop and double deliberate placing of the same stamps… done by the designer, maybe the producer, photos of the chest done by a photographer etc. All being involved with the details and work… wouldn’t that have given those folks pause to think this was very important to solving the poem?

            I don’t know… sounds like that would give a huge prior understand for those involved in creating the book that hold a treasure hunt challenge.

            Mr. Fenn you want this photo chopped and that single stamp on this page and the other page and the dates digitally removed? Yep That is what I want, but don’t tell nobody… wink!

            Yet, when fenn says; “…“There are some subtle hints in the TEXT of the book that will help you with the clues.  The poem will take you to the chest but the book by itself won’t.”

            Many seem to just let that slide. And lately, the 85% truth comment pops up, to attempt and justify a lot of thoughts that seem to contradict what fenn stated.

            This would kinda kill fenn’s comment; we all have the same opportunity…

            Just some may know more than others because they worked on the project? That would be prudent information if true… I would have to wonder why the chest has not been found by now. Wouldn’t you?
            85% of me says notta, 14% of me agrees. 1% is perplexed…

          • Hi Seeker,

            “… But when it come[s] to drawing [ illustrations done by an artist, photo-[s]hop and double deliberate placing of the same stamps… done by the designer, maybe the producer, photos of the chest done by a photographer etc. All being involved with the details and work… wouldn’t that have given those folks pause to think this was very important to solving the poem?”

            Sure. But it wouldn’t help them any more than it helps you. If you haven’t solved the clue, the hint for the clue is useless — even when you’re TOLD it’s a hint.

            “Mr. Fenn you want this photo [s]hopped and that single stamp on this page and the other page and the dates digitally removed? Yep That is what I want, but don’t tell nobody… wink!”

            Nobody will ever figure out the postmark stamps without solving the clues, so there is no danger if people in the book’s production/design other than Forrest became aware that something was fishy with the stamps. The same goes for the illustrations: Forrest could have described what he wanted drawn without giving away anything. He could also have made minor edits to those drawings that the artist probably wouldn’t even notice.

          • Jake,

            “You say: ‘They are. They’re that blatant.’ I say: Prove it….Unfortunately there is only one way to do this & you have not done that.”

            Nor will I because I’m not an idiot. It’s not up to me to solve the poem for you.

            “Your thought ‘For Whom the Bells Toll’ – BTFTW – is interesting but lacks proof as well & why would we have to rescramble the letters to make it work?”

            Again, the proof is in the clue answer, so we’re at an impasse.

            “We can do this for multiple lines in the poem & books & think we have something a million times.”

            I’m aware of that, and so was Forrest. That’s why “For Whom the Bell Tolls” isn’t the only hint for this clue in the book. Confidence in a hint like this can only be gained through redundancy.

            “Now if the postmark stamps were a hint, then the 1st people to know this would be the designer’s, LOL.”

            As I wrote before, knowing it’s a hint would be no more helpful to the designers than it is to you now.

            “I think the bottom line with the misspellings is that he still conveyed the story quite well & we understood was he was trying to say.”

            It’s certainly your prerogative to believe so. But you might want to compare the number of spelling errors in the “My War For Me” chapter with, say, the “Gold and More” chapter. The former is the longest chapter in the book, and yet other than Forrest’s fanciful words “beaconing”, “whifferdilled” and “mistfully” and a couple word pairs that should be compound nouns or hyphenated (e.g. “shock wave”, “propeller driven”), the chapter is free of spelling mistakes. Compare that with “Gold and More” where there are 5 errors on page 130 alone.

            I realize you don’t have your copy of the book any longer, and so it would be rather inconvenient if there were a number of good hints in the book to help steer a searcher toward the solution.

          • Zap: “Nor will I because I’m not an idiot. It’s not up to me to solve the poem for you.”

            It doesn’t make you an idiot either way, whether you come up with proof or not. What makes an idiot is knowing you have it figured out with no facts to prove it.

            I’m glad you are aware of the millions of things we can come up with once we start jumbling the first letters of a phrase around. I am not aware that Forrest was aware of this. Thanks for the inside info & speaking for him. You must know him very well LOL.

            I thought he said the hints in the book will help you with the clues in the poem? I must be missing something here, anyway, you know him better than us. That must explain this. “knowing it’s a hint would be no more helpful to the designers than it is to you now” You’re cracking me up today Zap.

            Have you emailed F to let him know about these errors?
            Maybe he would like to know so he can change them for the next printing.
            Maybe they are not errors at all & that’s just how he writes & likes it that way, to be different.
            An error/hint to you may just be a mistake. Now there’s 2 mistakes made.

            I don’t need the books to help you with your unproven speculations.

            We will see next summer, when you have a chance to prove your “theory’s” or should I say facts.

          • I have no idea where this comment is going to end up but it’s re: what Jake believes makes an idiot in this chase.

            IMO we are idiots because of f’s comment about “tell the truth but not the whole truth” and the word that is key or lack thereof.

            Jake, I feel like you think it has to be your way or the highway sometimes and it makes me want to smack you!!

            Ok, there I vented that sentiment.

            Now I’m ready to get back to solving this conundrum.

            As a side note- there are some that would go stark raving mad if f told the “whole” truth. And I guess I have to add IMO to that even though I’m 99.9% sure of that!

          • LOL WY Girl,
            Don’t you feel better now?
            Very reassuring to see who I am up against.

            Just remember, it’s what we think is the truth as far as what we remember.

          • “What makes an idiot is knowing you have it figured out with no facts to prove it.”

            So Jake, let me ask you this. In your system of logic, how can you ever get past the first clue? As you say, you have no proof that whatever you come up with is right since the only proof you’ll apparently accept is that Forrest says you’re right — and he’s never going to do that. So I don’t know why you emphasize the need for “proof” in other people’s solutions when you have no such proof for your own. Yet, obviously you must believe your solution is awfully close to being right, otherwise you wouldn’t waste time and money flying to Montana to investigate.

          • Very simple explanation Zap,
            “Knowing” is a problem, when we don’t, when it comes to the clues & where the treasure is.
            I do not see anyone confirming anything except failure to find it & the clues they don’t know either.

            I speculate that my 1st clue as you know is WWWH.
            I don’t look at this as the absolute 1st clue & could be missing something.
            I am not absolutely sure & ya, I can say I am 100% sure IMO.
            It still means it is not fact but I truly believe it & that’s about it.

            That’s right Zap, I have no proof & will never have proof until the objective is found & even then the proof will point the other way away from what I thought way confirmation.

            You see Zap, you do not appear to know the def of “confirmation”.
            Look it up & you will see “proof is needed” in there.

            I like you Zap & have a lot to offer even though you’re very secretive about your solve & don’t even divulge what any clue is even though many here do that.

            I think part of the problem is most get very sensitive to criticism & they don’t really share much but know they are right. I guess we are supposed to trust everyone when they say they have confirmed the 1st clue or a clue.

            You may have blinded some but my BS shades work very well.

          • Zap

            I also suffer from the paradoxical oxymoronic symptoms of liking you (too)
            while not entirely understanding (yet) of the actual reason that you can’t/won’t retrieve the TC, that you have previously (apparently) confidently located.
            so, I need more input (also) too, please.

            ( is it a visa issue? ..are you secretly a big criminal? ..is that the real reason?)

            it’s ok to be honest Zap – we won’t tell
            🙂

          • Jake — I think most of your argument with me centers on semantics. You don’t like my use of the word “confirmation.” Confirmation, to me, is simply a corroborative piece of information or evidence supporting a theory. A bread crumb, if you will, that you are likely on the right track and not deluding yourself. Confirmation is not proof; it’s simply support. “The time dilation of atomic clocks aboard GPS satellites confirms the predictions of Einstein’s Theories of both special relativity and general relativity.” There is nothing wrong with that statement, and yet it certainly is not proof that Einstein’s theories are correct. That said, if you don’t like the word, just substitute in your mind “supporting evidence.”

            “I like you Zap & have a lot to offer even though you’re very secretive about your solve & don’t even divulge what any clue is even though many here do that.”

            I understand, but there is a reason for that. My solution is so fundamentally different from the approaches that everyone else takes that I can’t even give you the first clue. I realize that in the more conventional, point-to-point approaches that are posted here, people will often say what their WWWH is, or their canyon down, or their home of Brown or even their blaze without giving away their whole solution. But if I divulged my first clue or WWWH, along with the many supporting lines of evidence, it would give everyone significant insight into how I believe the poem works. It wouldn’t be enough to solve everything, but it would be a very big step in the right direction.

            So instead, I try to point out some of the anomalies in the book and the poem that provide “supporting evidence” that there could be more going on than meets the eye. But from your responses, I gather you are not sufficiently intrigued by any of the oddities I’ve pointed out to warrant investigating them further. I suspect the quantity and quality of evidence that you would require in order to accept such a large paradigm shift in your poem-solving strategy would be nothing short of the whole end-to-end solution.

            “I guess we are supposed to trust everyone when they say they have confirmed the 1st clue or a clue.”

            Well, clearly a few people have, but only Fenn knows who for sure. The best any of us can say is that we are very confident.

            “You may have blinded some but my BS shades work very well.”

            I think those shades might work a bit too well. Are you sure their letting any light through at all?

          • Zap: “Well, clearly a few people have (confirmed)”
            but only Fenn knows who for sure.

            How can those few people have confirmed if F is the only one that knows?

            I don’t think you know the definition of confirm. Considering your education, background & experience, I would think you were smarter than that but I guess I am wrong.

            They have not confirmed it Zap. Confirmation would be if F told them what the 1st clue is & let them know where when & what.

            So how was your trip to the land down under the land down under?
            I’ve seen there was new land creeping out of the ocean with a recent earthquake.

          • Zap,
            No offense to J__e intended, but this exchange was laugh out loud funny!

            Comment:
            “You may have blinded some but my BS shades work very well.”

            Reply:
            I think those shades might work a bit too well. Are you sure their letting any light through at all?

            OpEd:
            Gotta love the passion of the Chase (IMHO).

          • LMN, lol… I heard someone say once that those who say they recognize BS from afar is because they are constantly smelling it from their own mouth… I just thought it was funny…

          • Jake, when you wrote:

            “I guess we are supposed to trust everyone when they say they have confirmed the 1st clue or a clue.”

            the intent of my response was that clearly a few people *have* solved the first two clues — not because they think they have, but because Forrest has SAID they have. [He’s not referring to me because he made those remarks long before I even started the Chase.] In any case, there is at least a chance that one or more of the searchers that Forrest claims has solved the first two clues is a contributor here. So while you shouldn’t “trust everyone,” if you opt to trust no one then you’re sure to ignore anyone that ~has~ solved the first two clues.

            “So how was your trip to the land down under the land down under?
            I’ve seen there was new land creeping out of the ocean with a recent earthquake.”

            It was a fabulous bucket-list trip that covered over 2,000 miles of driving. Alas, wasn’t able to see where new land had been created near Kaikoura since it wasn’t possible to drive there. Did get to enjoy a few good aftershocks while we were there, including a 5.5.

          • Not sure I would be driving that much in a place I didn’t know.
            2,000 miles?
            What happened to Uber in New Zealand?

            Ah, the ring of fire still goes on.

          • I never saw an Uber or Lyft car in South Island; perhaps they’re there, but probably only in the bigger cities like Christchurch and Dunedin. There just isn’t enough population density to support that business model.

            The geographic distribution of the endless tourist sights in South Island require a lot of driving to see: not surprising when you consider the diversity of terrains in the “Lord of the Rings” movies. It really is a magical country — and I haven’t even seen North Island yet.

  20. All,
    I’ve read many of the recent posts; the discussions focus on how hints can help searchers follow the clues.
    While on a recent road trip (NOT to treasure country), I took the opportunity to follow this suggestion from F:
    “Read the book again looking for hints that are in the book that are going to help you with clues that are in the poem. The best advice I can give: All you have to do is think about the nine clues and follow them in order.”
    I noted over 20 hints in TTOTC (not counting those on the poem pages); none were as small as a comma; and taken together IMO the hints seem quite helpful, as I continue to “think about the nine clues” and adjust the marks on my map.
    Geoff
    “Have flashlight, will travel”

  21. My knowledge of punctuation is limited,./;'”: and so()? I have left that aspect of the poem where it belongs; alone. I have connected his comments about his report cards to the poem that gives me a very good indicator. It works for me and I’m going with it….

  22. Merry Hannahqwanzmas!!

    :o)

    Just had to include as many as I could!

    Enjoy the holidays!

  23. Watched an old Pink Panther movie yesterday and laughed my you know what off. Inspector “Clouseau” seems like a good candidate to help out with the Chase…just a little humor to cap off a good year. Long live Peter Sellers.

    • “I suggest you count your bees, you may find that one of them is missing.”

      – Inspector Clou ..well, you know ‘who’..
      🙂

      • probably only humorous to me…watching the movie started a Chase cartoon in my head. One where “Clous…” was bumbling through the Rockies searching….jeez, time to change the channel. Oh good, Expedition Unknown is on….

      • thanks ken ..and yes, I strongly recommend asking Sparrow about his meds, now that you mention it – seems to be working well for him, apparently..

        [ ..what’s that Billy? ..yep ..nah ..just chattin’ wid Ken at the mo ..yep ok, will pass your ‘vitally important’ message onto Sparrow immediately, before I forget]

        ..so thanks again ken, for having a sense of humour and,,
        (oh wait!? ..I think I just forgot to remember something (vital) again..!)

        ( ..oh well.. )
        🙂

        • Curious—-

          The meds have indeed been working. Billy Barty only visits occasionally now, but still insists the treasure is in Wyoming. So does my dear grandmother’s departed spirit. So I am still centering on that area, and taking my schizophrenia medicine only when absolutely necessary. Happy hunting my friend! 🙂

        • thanks Sparrow – thankfully though, I don’t need any meds, and probably never will.

          I wish you a happy holiday, mate.
          🙂

          ..and so do I.

          ..yeah, me too.

          ..same here.

  24. @ Jake Faulker…”So he has said there are hints sprinkled”… you have to figured out the difference in “SPRINKLED” and “SPLATTERED”???

    • TZP,
      Splatter seems to indicate to apply with force & maybe spreads out somewhat.
      Sprinkle to me means like pinching some salt in your fingers & dropping the tiny crystals on the plate while moving your hand around.

      Does this make sense to you?

      • Jake –
        “How else can mediocre hints be interpreted if not an area?”

        I don’t think anything about the chase is mediocre. Not the poem, clues, book, or hints. Forrest is much to clever to be associated with the word mediocre. One last thought. I’m pretty sure that something that f worked on for many, many years would not contain even a trace of mediocre. 🙂

        • Hma,
          I think you take things to personal & to heart too much & it seems like you & a lot of others try to protect Forrest, like this is going to help you or them.

          You said: “I’m pretty sure that something that f worked on for many, many years would not contain even a trace of mediocre.”
          Mediocre is a part of life including his at times, there is no escaping it unless you live in a dream world where you think everything in your life is perfect at all times & there was nothing mediocre about it.
          Please give me some of those meds.

          You totally missed the point & question & whiffed right by you & replied with a defensive non fact statement.

          Your comment was mediocre at best.

          Why don’t you answer the question or do you want to keep trying to protect him that makes you feel better.
          “How else can mediocre hints be interpreted if not an area?”

          It’s pretty clear to me what he said.
          There are a couple of good hints. So what do you think are the other hints?
          Bad if not mediocre?

      • IMO, in common speak… Sprinkled is deliberate, splattered is accidental…. unless the opposite is meant where it is said for a satirical effect.

        So ‘sprinkled’ means deliberately put in a loosely general manner, but not put speck-by-speck.

        Did you expect clarity from Fenn-speak?

        • OS2: “Sprinkled is deliberate, splattered is accidental”
          It’s sprinkling out right now down here where I live & the tiny dots of rain don’t seem to be deliberately placed but scattered along the surface.

          I once had mud on my hands & splattered it all over my brothers face accidentally I think.

          He wasn’t seeing clearly after that.

          • Hi Jake ,

            No clues were put in the book to aid anyone. F said that along time ago.
            For all you who are new – IMO

            F said that the poem will lead you to the chest . The book by it’s self will not.
            Will not is strong language – I din’t say it Forrest did. So if that is a bother , please email him about it . I am just repeating.

  25. Jake,
    I want to apologize for venting at you like that earlier. I’m sorry.
    On the surface it looks we all have the same information to work with but then I realized that that’s not true. We are all individuals and all look at this from different perspectives and go about solving in different ways so how could we all have the same information?
    There’s not some data base out there that everyone puts all that they know about the chase into and then everyone else can ” see” that info and know what that searcher is talking about.
    I think we have to be careful about assuming anything.
    What set me off was you saying what would make an idiot.
    Do you KNOW everything involved or are you assuming?
    So once again I’m sorry! I’ve been burning the candle at both ends and spending time on my solve that I really don’t have and it’s making me cranky. But my solve is that IMPORTANT to me that I am willing to do so.
    But I’ll try to refrain from lashing out at others in the future.

    • WY Girl,
      I take offense when someone uses the confirm/confirmation word when they say they have confirmed the 1st clue or any clue or where the treasure is with whatever.
      They are so sure, they can’t be wrong without any proof.

      It’s sorta like a child saying “I know what it is & you don’t”. (let’s all sing along now) “I know whaaat it iiiiiis & yooou don’t”.
      Then you try to get some info about there confirmation & you get stonewalled with the same BS.

      I just think it’s insulting to many when someone comes on here & is absolutely sure they figured out one of the clues or where the treasure is. It’s ridiculous seeing F stated, you will not know if you have the 1st clue until you find the treasure (paraphrasing).

      Don’t sweat it.

      • Jake,
        Your going to be offended a lot if that is truly how you feel.

        Folks are stuck on their solves, feel they found confirmation to their solves, but you ask for something that can not be given… proof to a “clue” even if it is the true answer to the “clue”.. no one can proof a “clue.” They can try to explain it better, show examples of thought process. Even, come out and tell you exactly how they came about it, Yet that is in no-way “proof”

        Maybe Clarification, in-depth explanation, examples, more detailed though process… of why they have the confirmation they feel a clue is, might be a better approach. { if they don’t want to do that. what can you really do about it? }

        Now when someone says, I know where the chest is or I have the correct solve or fenn is secreting message to me [my personal pet peeve]… I’ll be the first to jump in and say, prove it… that is way beyond confidence and confirmation.

        All we are doing here is BSing on our theories… there is no ‘proving’ those theories or clues, no matter how confident one thinks they are.

        The one thing I do agree with you on and I have asked in the past is, just don’t “say” it… “explain” what you are saying.

        • Round and round the mulberry bush…………

          The discussions today remind me of sumthing………

          My search partner and I hadn’t been working together very long and on our first time out an innocent mistake was made and things got messed up and the trip had to be postponed…..
          So we stated planning our next excursion. Now I knew the territory where we were going and I told my partner I needed to really think about this and come up with a good plan on how to execute a good thorough search and not miss anything , but sometimes (ok, a lot ) I have a difficult time communicating especially if it’s someone I don’t know very well. I guess my friend didn’t catch that or understand what I was saying because the next thing I knew they were saying ” Ok, I have a plan on how to make this happen” .
          I was like huh? But I said to myself, ok he’s been searching longer than I have, knows more about this than I do, so he must have a better idea of what to do than I do so I just let it go.
          Well, to make a long story short, we got out there and spent endless amounts of time going in circles. And circles. And more circles.
          I have no idea what happened to my friends plan. I never asked. I don’t know if I misunderstood them or if something unexpected went wrong .
          Now, this is a great search partner, they know the chase and are unbelievably sharp and I know the terrain where we are going so we make an excellent team, but next time we are going to make sure each understands the other and that we have a solid plan before we go out.
          So that’s my story of round and round the mulberry bush!
          Pro’lly not gonna help many others with there solves but maybe it will…………..

          • WY Girl: “but next time we are going to make sure each understands the other and that we have a solid plan before we go out.”

            I agree 100% with you.
            I can relate when I went out to my search area & my partner wanted & did go way past the point where an older person could go & tried to explain to him it was way too far.

            A solid plan is a good plan when everyone agrees beforehand & sticks to it unless you carry out that plan & find nothing, then you have plan B if there’s enough time.

  26. Confirmation is not proof; it’s simply support. — Zaphod

    All of what follows is my opinion…

    Zaphod, while I can appreciate your passion and confidence in what you believe is the correct path you’re on, I have to weigh in on facts.

    –Confirmation: the act of, or something that confirms; verification
    –Confirm: To prove to be true or valid; to verify
    –Verification: evidence that provides proof of an assertion, theory, etc

    Using LOGIC (which you are fond of asserting), the word confirmation is proof, given the factual definitions above. But instead of just correcting your logic, please allow me to drive home a deeper meaning in what I think is the real problem.
    I learned early on in the Chase about two years ago, that if you are confident, and you believe in yourself… then if you put those feelings out there in a “like minded public competition” blog, there is going to be blowback.
    Some will ignore you.
    Some will laugh at you.
    Some will insult you.
    Some will encourage you.
    Some will argue with you.
    Why? Because that is humanity. But make no mistake… as someone who has self confirmation of the location of the treasure chest… I am going to help you with the following advice:
    1. Sight a blind eye to those who shall ignore you.
    2. Listen with a deaf ear, those who shall laugh at and insult you.
    3. Speak with silence to those who would argue with you.
    4. Show a warm smile to all who choose to encourage you.
    Take it from someone who has learned in the past. If you are so sure about yourself, then you gain nothing by stirring the “Poop Pot”. Well, nothing except worsening the stench.

    Merry Christmas 🙂

    • Greetings Fe-Will! I will concede that the most common definition of “confirm” is to establish the truth or validity of something. But it can also mean “to make firm, or more firm; add strength to.” “Her parents’ support confirmed her determination to seek higher office.” The idea that I’m trying to express about Forrest’s puzzle is that the book provides some very nice hints that will boost a searcher’s confidence when they solve a clue. That’s all. Without those strengthening hints, the searcher wouldn’t and couldn’t be as confident.

      “I learned early on in the Chase about two years ago, that if you are confident, and you believe in yourself… then if you put those feelings out there in a “like minded public competition” blog, there is going to be blowback.”

      Yes, no doubt.

      “I am going to help you with the following advice:
      1. Sight a blind eye to those who shall ignore you.
      2. Listen with a deaf ear, those who shall laugh at and insult you.
      3. Speak with silence to those who would argue with you.
      4. Show a warm smile to all who choose to encourage you.”

      All sound advice. But I will add that I do actually appreciate those that argue with me civilly because it encourages me to seek evidence or clearer logic which I can use to bolster my case in any places where it is weak.

      Mare Egrets Moose to you as well!

      • While reading IW’s and Zap’s post… I see some similarity to the way I read the poem.

        IW’s example of confirmation definition states confirm and verification, as the need of proving. But what I think is more important to the usage is “the act of”… which from my readings of Zaphod post, was his explanations / his action of the use and finding of hints. the act of looking for confirmation.
        Zap’s definition usage is relates more to his example of “Support”, which doesn’t necessarily mean to prove.

        I also see a subtle differences between “argue” usage.
        One to mean, by IW’s advice comment; to fight with verbally.
        The other, by Zap’s usage, to present information for the purpose of supporting one claim. Argue one’s point.

        I bring this up, not because of their ideas or thoughts… but because the poem seemingly does the same. We see the poem only, or mostly, from what we think it should be, because of how we use the words in the way we use them.
        So, the majority of readers see begin it where wwh to be ‘us’ a searcher, which automatically makes ‘us’ see, and take it in the canyon down to be ‘us’ a searcher. Sure who can’t see that, right?

        Yet, we call fenn a wordsmith, and some don’t see how that those words can’t be anything more than what we see it to be.
        The differences between IW’s usage and Zap’s usage of the same word is correct on both parts. But only correct, by the one who used it to “his” intent.
        This was an interesting back and forth discussion in my eyes. Even thought the way I read the comments didn’t have anything to do with the actual discussion overall. It simply shows how we can see two or more usage of a word, term, or phrase and not see the same thing at all.

    • BTW – I hear all of Iron Will’s comments in a deep creepy voice like James Early Jones playing a fallen angel.

      • lol..

        I’m sold! ..ticket booked, leaving the house, heading directly for ‘the dark side’, on a bus, as we speak.

        I secretly ‘knew’ all this time, that Iron Will is actually Darth Vader – just like Zap mysteriously ‘knows’ where the chest is hidden.

        ( ..yay for fiction!)
        🙂

        • CH: I have not forgotten you, and owe you a reply to your recent message, particularly in light of how much my wife and I enjoyed your beautiful country!

        • thanks Z

          I s’pose I’m most curious to know why you haven’t searched (botg) yet (?)

          ‘have snow boots, St Bernard and epirb – will travel’ ..as the saying goes

          btw, I found your country beautiful too, assuming you live up north, close to that invisible ‘greenwich meridian’ thingy
          🙂

          • Hi CH:

            “I s’pose I’m most curious to know why you haven’t searched (botg) yet (?)”

            I presume you mean searched ~again~. My first trip at the beginning of October was premature and rushed due to the imminent end to the 2016 search season. And even as it was, I was too late by 4 or 5 days: really foul weather for 3 out of the 4 days I was up there (rain, sleet, snow).

            My search area is well covered with snow now, and likely to remain so for at least another 3 months. While Forrest has said *he* could recover the chest in any weather, that is only because he knows exactly where it is. My location is not so precise that I could blindly walk to it, dig down through 2 or 3 feet of snow and find it. Even if I was confident of the location to within, say 30 feet, that’s a lot of snow shoveling. So I’m going to wait until I can take advantage of any visual cues that Forrest may or may not have left at the scene.

          • You could retrieve it in any weather, but you would have to know exactly where it is.

            He never mentions “conditions”, which is different than weather.
            It could be snowing 5 inches per hour but it just started.
            Conditions may be fine.

            I wonder if you could retrieve it in any conditions?

          • G’day Great Southern Zap

            my bad – I thought you mentioned awhile back that you were done with searching, but I probably was just confused at the time, which is highly unusual for me (..cough cough)

            Glad you enjoyed NZ mate, it’s so dense down those parts that it feels like the landscape is jumping in ya window, right? – with winding metalled roads that would even make Ken Block faint. so 2000 miles is a great effort mate.

            oh, and don’t listen to Jake about searching in the snow – he just wants your iddy biddy toes to get frost-bite so ya can’t search when summer rolls around again.
            (..he’s such a trouble-maker, it’s almost scary – no honestly)
            🙂

  27. Zap or HMA, you have mentioned before that in your solves once you got the ‘word that is key’ from the first stanza you were able to identify the right WWH. Let me ask you this, if someone identifies the right WWH first can they reverse engineer and find the first clue/hint/key-word from the first stanza that will confirm they have the right WWH? Or, is it ‘near impossible’ without the first stanza hint to get the right WWH?

    • An interesting question, Oz10. I think it is very unlikely to choose the right WWWH without the ‘word that is key.’ There are just too many possibilities that seem equally good, and so no way to choose among them. But, for the sake of argument, supposing someone did get lucky and guess it, I think that would improve their chances for finding the first clue — all of course assuming that my first two clues are correct. And if that first stanza clue was found, then yes — it would add confidence (is that better, Jake? :-)) that they had the right WWWH.

      • Ok, thanks for the reply. I read one of your posts about what you do for a living and you are smarter than most, you are pretty much a rocket scientist.

        So my next question, if you could answer, how much work for someone like you was to get the right WWH after you identified the word/key? I think I’m onto something here, but it doesn’t seem like a magic word that gave me WWH instantly. I am still working on it from different angles.

        • Hi Oz10: the odd thing is, and I think I’ve shared this before, I stumbled into my 3rd clue answer before I figured out what my WWWH was. But I think my experience was anamolous; I wouldn’t think most would solve them in that order. Had I been paying greater attention to the book, I might have solved the clues 1-2-3 (as Fenn probably intended) instead of 1-3-2. So, I guess my advice would be that if you think you have a good educated guess at the key word, look for some subtle support in TTOTC. I wasn’t confident of my WWWH until I had the right map.

          • Zap, how much confirmation or support you found for your ‘word that is key’ in the poem itself and not in TTOTC?
            If you can share…

            Or let me word it this way, the process that built your word-key will not produce any other similar word, hence it is unmistakable? just trying to create some confidence…

          • Hi Oz10 – after recent snarky comments made by Lugnutz about my posts, followed by piling-on by Goofy, I’m not sure it’s worth the additional abuse I’d get if I gave you a public reply to your questions.

          • I understand, don’t worry about that. Don’t forget that in this chase many people have spent lots of time and money on their solves. They are not attacking per se, just sensitive and very skeptical to new ideas.

          • Hi Oz.

            You wrote:
            “Don’t forget that in this chase many people have spent lots of time and money on their solves. They are not attacking per se, just sensitive and very skeptical to new ideas.”

            I can see how people can spend lots of money…..I know I have to work around a budget and my first trip cost my wife and I – from ABQ, NM – approx $600-700 each. Adding in a third team member – we totaled about $1800 for a six day road trip – two there and two back – including our food and lodging.

            So you are right – it can be expensive…..I’m still well under my total budget for this hunt….luckily I have restraints in place! :o)

            As for your comment of…..”just sensitive and very skeptical to new ideas.”
            – Well, not really true, because i love to see what other people are thinking, and maybe something may help me in my solve or in the least, how I can proceed to look at another clue. Of course there is skepticism involved….that is because….we all want to be right…..

            …and you know that is not going to happen.

            I’m not sensitive either…..we all have our own view of what the solve will be, and we all know that there is only one solve that will work.

            Remember – the quest is just difficult, not impossible, therefore it is solvable.

            Good luck!

      • Yea, That’s better Zap,
        Just curious how you started in finding the errors & postmarks.

        They are interesting & may hold a hint here & there but of coarse I wouldn’t fall for all of them & you would need to weed some out.

        Did you search for them after putting 2 & 2 together while reading the book(s)?
        Was it just happenstance?
        When did you notice a pattern that caught your eye?

        I know you have touched upon this in the past but would like to know if you were looking for them & whether or not being in the chase for a while made you change your way of thinking after not finding it.

        I guess I am asking for the influence of your speculation of today as opposed to the past.

        I know from Seekers POV, he has been stead fast on his thinking for a few years & others have changed mid stream or when they failed at some point.

        • Jake: your latest post deserves a more detailed answer than I can easily provide from my cellphone. Just wanted you to know that that reply would be forthcoming, but since you are 3 hours ahead of me you likely won’t get it until tomorrow.

          • Watching the same crazy game: a safety and a leap-frog blocked field goal. Whacky game … but not as whacky as all those cricket matches I tried (in vain) to follow while at 45 degrees south!

          • Don’t see that leap too often & the guy leaping cannot touch the center for it to be legal.

            Cricket seems like a spin off of baseball although it may be the other way around.

            What part of Montana do you think is important in a general sense?

          • I thought it was impressive he cleared the center w/o contact.

            We’re going to need Curious Hobbit’s help on cricket. I watched hours of it and I have only the most basic understanding of what’s going on. If it’s any consolation, Kiwis are probably equally mystified by American baseball. The sports’ similarities are outnumbered by their differences.

            As for the general part of Montana, you’re in it. That’s initially what convinced me you had solved the same first clue that I had. But it turns out it was coincidence.

          • Well, it looks like we end up in the same place interpreting the poem & everything else.
            Funny how we have different views on the 1st clue but many of us end up here in the same place without…..

            My problem from the end of last year was how the poem or other things get me out of YNP. Seeing I have taken a couple of trips there & near & realized that he would not hide it there.

            I’m looking well north of Hebgen as you know.

          • My Expert Opinion on Cricket

            ‘..it’s great for curing insomnia – even more effective than watching paint dry’

            ask me something REALLY interesting Zap ..like MotoGP racing 🙂

        • Hi Jake — okay, back home so now have the tools for a proper reply.

          “Just curious how you started in finding the errors & postmarks.”

          For Whom the Bell Tolls was my first foray into book hints. Prior to that I was skeptical that Forrest’s hints in the book would be of much help (after all, he said that all you “need” is the poem, and I considered myself a poem purist), but the more I scrutinized the book, the more helpful I found it to be.

          As for the postmarks, I totally dismissed them for the first year. I had seen posts here where people said that the days of the week were wrong on them, but I thought “Yeah, so what?” But at some point I decided to write them all done, confirm the days of the week were indeed wrong (on the ones with legible years) and see if I could spot anything else odd about them. That’s when I found that two of them were identical, one of which was on the facing page of the “Gold and More” chapter (and very difficult to read), so I became rather suspicious of it and its duplicate. In retrospect, I probably should have investigated them earlier since he clearly went to some effort to put them in his book, and yet they seem so benign.

          “Did you search for them after putting 2 & 2 together while reading the book(s)?
          Was it just happenstance?
          When did you notice a pattern that caught your eye?”

          I think I had read the book cover-to-cover about a dozen times before the “For Whom the Bell Tolls” error clicked. I think the next clue I spotted was in one of the illustrations. But it wasn’t until after my trip to Montana at the beginning of October that I started to wonder if I was missing a lot of hints in the book, so I went digging with purpose and discovered how much I had missed despite reading the book so many times.

          “I know you have touched upon this in the past but would like to know if you were looking for them & whether or not being in the chase for a while made you change your way of thinking after not finding it.”

          Once I had a feeling for what I assumed was Forrest’s method of hiding hints, it was easier to go specifically looking for things. Of course, with a 147-page book, there are ample opportunities to get sucked into confirmation bias, so I only attached significance to cases of multiple hints leading to the same clue answer in different ways.

          “I guess I am asking for the influence of your speculation of today as opposed to the past.”

          As you know, I was confident enough in my location in late September to make a short-notice, expensive trip without the benefit of the majority of the book hints. The things I later discovered in October and November have cemented the early clues of the solution, but led to a correction to one assumption I made at the end. Ironically, it was a case of attaching too much significance to something in the book that wasn’t in fact indicated by the poem.

          “I know from Seekers POV, he has been steadfast on his thinking for a few years & others have changed mid stream or when they failed at some point.”

          I think some degree of failure may be an unavoidable part of Forrest’s puzzle. He did say you would have to “earn it,” and I’m guessing he meant that from both an intellectual standpoint and an expense and time-commitment perspective. But I don’t think he meant for people to have to make 100 trips to the Rockies to converge on the solution since that is not in reach of most family’s pocketbooks.

          • Zap,
            So you started out as a poem purist, but did you know about his statement “all you need is the poem” before being a purist?

            I have never read the book “For Whom The Bell Tolls”, so I cannot relate to what coincidences you have found in there or are you just stating the title as a hint because he mentioned the book.

            Your thought process has changed as most in the chase when it comes to failure as I have changed but ever so slightly.

            There have been many here that have done a lot of research on the bookmarks & you may want to dig deeper here as I have done going back to 2012.

          • Hi Jake,

            “So you started out as a poem purist, but did you know about his statement “all you need is the poem” before being a purist?”

            Yes — that’s what caused me to believe the poem (and a good map) was all I would need. No scrapbooks, no Fenn comments (other than the kinds of obviously helpful clues such as it’s not in Idaho or Nevada and it’s between 5000′ and 10,200′ in altitude) and no TFTW required. And while TTOTC might have hints, they wouldn’t be critical to finding the solution. But my thinking eventually evolved on that latter point: I think it would be really hard to solve all the clues without the book. I certainly don’t think you could proceed with confidence without TTOTC.

            “I have never read the book ‘For Whom The Bell Tolls’, so I cannot relate to what coincidences you have found in there or are you just stating the title as a hint because he mentioned the book.”

            It’s just the title, or rather it is Forrest’s mismatch between the title and the storyline he described (which is from A Farewell to Arms). I didn’t go searching in For Whom the Bell Tolls, or Catcher in the Rye, for any connections.

            “There have been many here that have done a lot of research on the bookmarks [I assume you mean postmark stamps] & you may want to dig deeper here as I have done going back to 2012.”

            I’m pretty confident I’ve done a more thorough investigation of the postmark stamps than anyone else who has posted publicly about them. I did find one guy who has put together a pretty good website about those 20 stamps, but while he noted the incorrect days of the week, he didn’t solve their significance. Nor did he have any theories on the reason for the duplicated stamp. I’ll have to see if I can find the URL for you if you haven’t seen that page.

          • Hi Zap…..I too have a theory on why the “postmarks” are present. A friend of mine also thinks that there is something there too, but has not been able to crack that open yet.

            My theory is that they represent a time/day/moment that ff actually was present in those areas. It seems to fit sort of well, considering some of the years are not really legible.

            Someone stated that they are all different except two. Okay, I’ve never dug that deep into it, but if that is true, then it could also be related to the years he actually traveled up to WYP or YNP. This also seems to be very a logical reason.

            As you can see…I’ve not delved into them completely…..and don’t think I will, as it seems like another rabbit hole with nothing to gain from it.

            We already know that his family used to go to those areas in his childhood…..I think Fenn is just recollecting the times he was in WY/MT.

            Cheers!

          • Hi again — found the URL: http://fennclues.com/fenn-treasure-postmarks.html

            It’s actually not as good as I remembered it. He makes no mention of the duplicated stamp. His page 44 postmark is wrong – the postmark says 1930s, not 1930, so you can’t establish whether the day of the week is wrong. Also, two of the stamps that have smudged years have a month and a day that are specifically mentioned elsewhere in the book. 27 December 1953 is Forrest and Peggy’s wedding date, so the year for that stamp on page 72 should probably be 1953 (in which case, the correct day of the week is Sunday). on page 96, July 13th, 1956, is mentioned, so the year for the stamp on page 46 should probably be 1956, and the correct day of the week would be Friday. So 14 out of 14 days are wrong, which has about an 11.6% chance of happening if you chose the days randomly. Not impossible, but unlikely.

          • Don’t forget the one and only postmark on the right side. All the rest are on the left.

          • Zap,
            I’m not going to put too much weight into the stamps.
            Thanks for sharing & it is interesting but I can’t talk myself into using them.

            I prefer to use areas or places as hints in the books.
            I think he mentioned “places” here & there.

          • Yes, Eaglesabound — that’s one of the duplicated stamps. Draws extra attention to itself being the only one on an odd-numbered page.

          • Hey postmark Zap…
            You know Fenn mentions something about the utility of the bronze chest, the 2 kind of books it may have held. Betting everyone’s heard of “The Bible” before, but what about the other book?
            Had you ever heard of such a book before? Did it spark your curiosity enough for a quick internet search ? I was totally ignorant of it, so I spent some time learning about it. I was even able to find a copy online, which was surprising given how there’s so few copies. It might have been @ Project Gutenberg, it had been scanned , uploaded, the site allows you to copy and paste info from it.
            So go ahead, take the postmarks in TTOTC, try to align them with stuff in this book, or try to match them up using a collection of ‘famous days in history’.
            I think it comes down something Fenn mentions in one of the video interviews/ talking about his gallery years, “I hired a full- time research assistant”
            In TFTW Fenn mentioned something about Donnie’s mother being a postmaster, I poured over this online database as well [USPS postmaster listing] looking for ‘Brown’

          • Hi Jake,

            “I’m not going to put too much weight into the stamps. Thanks for sharing & it is interesting but I can’t talk myself into using them.”

            I wouldn’t say you’re missing out on much. Like the other subtle hints in the book, they aren’t good starting points for solving anything. They are more like backup material for when you think you’ve cracked something in the poem. And in the case of the stamps, they don’t help with any of the early poem clues (or at least they didn’t for me), e.g. they don’t provide any hint as to WWWH.

          • Zap – did you have an “aha moment” thought to determine your word that is key, or was it a product of a process?

          • imajin: strangely enough, it came to me in my sleep. Once you’ve memorized the poem, as I’m sure most have after a few months, the text is available to your subconscious to play with. I have frequently solved problems in this fashion — particularly ones that required some element of lateral thinking.

          • Someone told me treasures so I tried it and it did extract a complete sentence. I found out that it wasn’t the word, found the right one, and now it gave me the real clues, and a double Omega that is actually overlapping the chest in the form of a cross. Looking down from the cross reveals what it is within. Now that it gives the exact WWWH, I simply use the solution extracted and execute the poem one more time. Unfortunately it cannot be retrieved right now due to the weather, but in the spring will be my last attempt, 3rd strike if I am wrong.

            If I am right, it is very clever how he hid the real clues right almost in plain sight, and without the real ones we would be forever trying places that fit WWWH.

            My location, of course, is in Wyoming but not in any famous park or national forest, and also Forrest never talked about it in the book, any scrapbook, and not in any hints. Sure the all hint back to it, but then they are so vague you can twist everything he has ever said into confirmation bias.

            As Goofy likes to say, at this time nobody including myself can make any claims to having the correct solution. I will say this though, if I am wrong at strike 3, it is over for me. This is the ONLY solution I had that uses nothing but the poem to extract all 9 clues, then I was able to use real world maps to locate the specific one out of all the possible WWWH’s with confirmation (to me) within the poem itself, and in English. Who knows what will happen 🙂

          • Zaphod,
            LOL you might want to back off heavy meals before bedtime…
            OK, you have a word that is not from the poem. So that means from the book, right? I personally don’t have any word nailed down, as many seem very relative to the poem as a whole. [ again that depends on how the poem is read ]
            But I was wondering if you are, or have considered “chase”… I was a little surprised looking into the usages of this word, especially dealing in engraving etc.

          • Hi Seeker,

            “OK, you have a word that is not from the poem. So that means from the book, right?”

            It’s not one of the 166 words of the poem, but the word is from the poem (I’m sure I’ve said this before). Once found in the poem, you can also find many subtle hints for it in the book.

          • Zaphod—

            There are quite a few “words” in the poem that are not one of the 166. Just curious how you determined the one word was the keyword?

          • That is true sparrow, a ton of words that are not part of the 166. There are entire sentences too.

          • Zap. you may have mentioned it before… I just don’t recall at this moment what that was.
            If it’s not one of the 166 words in the poem but still in the poem… my guess would be vertical or diagonal or something to that effect. IF so you’re losing me..lol. Maybe you could tell me how you located it again.
            I wouldn’t think tight focus to mean find waldo approach. But more to a word that is a cornerstone to the poem overall.
            Cornerstone, when I type that word I laughed out-loud, literally. ~ I just looked at the corner letters AIDE or IDEA

          • Hi Seeker,

            “Zap. you may have mentioned it before… I just don’t recall at this moment what that was. If it’s not one of the 166 words in the poem but still in the poem… my guess would be vertical or diagonal or something to that effect. IF so you’re losing me..lol.”

            I haven’t revealed the method for finding the keyword because that method is the primary reason it’s hard.

            “I wouldn’t think tight focus to mean find waldo approach.”

            It’s not random like that. I think it’s a variant of a known technique that Forrest appears to have devised on his own.

      • “I think it is very unlikely to choose the right WWWH without the ‘word that is key.’”

        My thoughts on this would be:
        – one would not know if they have the right WWWH until the chest is found, because any clue after this point could lea the seeker in the wrong direction.

        – IMO you need to solve the first three clues, in order to find a “blaze”, because all of these clues seem to lead one to the “trail to the chest”….which makes me believe “blaze” to be the key word….because no one will find the chest without first finding the “blaze”…..even the poem states this……”if you have been wise and found the blaze”.

        It is a marked trail that we should be looking for. How is it marked…..by landmarks and other means is what I have found to be true.

        Good luck everyone.

        Merry Hannahqwanzmas to ALL!

    • Oz10 – While almost anything is possible I would say that it’s highly improbable to figure out the keyword by going in reverse. IMO, the tract that Forrest threaded through the wiles of nature is dependent upon the keyword because it is the foundation.

      What I’ve noticed and this includes myself with my first solve is that I tried to conjure up a WWWH that sounded good or fit with something that Forrest had written about. I realized that this approach was much like throwing darts and taking a chance. That approach will never work IMO because I had no way to know if I was correct. IMO Forrest designed a system that gives everyone the answers and also gives us a way to check those answers in order to proceed. It’s an incredible system! We’ve all seen the solutions and results that derived from the way we would normally approach this, so with that I had to admit that there might be an alternative way for this chase to work. I will say that for most it takes adjustment, much like the video about the backwards bike. For some it will take a lot of adjustment in order to move forward. Some might not ever be able to adjust enough.

      • HMA, thanks for the reply. You raised a question regarding an alternate way of getting at it. As you have progressed in your clue solving, have you found some gaps left in between? Or will you be confident that there is enough ‘closure’ between them and you keep moving forward with the next?

        • Oz10 – Sure there is always a small amount of doubt or small gaps as you suggest. However with that being said, you can find confirmation that will affirm what you are seeing is correct. It’s by no means easy but after you figure out a clue and find confirmation, you will understand things clearly.

  28. All,
    “Until someone finds the treasure they will not know for sure that they have discovered the first clue.”
    IMO, searchers will also not know if they have the correct “word that is key”, the correct “important possibility”, or a useful list of hints, until the treasure is found. (By the way; my list of hints from TTOTC includes about one hint for every six pages or so in the book; I found it interesting that none of these tentative hints seems to be related to the “word that is key.”)
    Geoff
    “Have flashlight, will travel”

    • Geoff Idaho –
      “Until someone finds the treasure they will not know for sure that they have discovered the first clue.”

      I happen to agree with that statement. There is always room for a shred of doubt but with the path that I’m on I feel pretty good about the first clue.

      “IMO, searchers will also not know if they have the correct “word that is key”, the correct “important possibility”, or a useful list of hints, until the treasure is found.”

      I disagree with this statement Geoff. It nothing personal. I just happen to see the poem in such a way that does show what I believe to be the “keyword.” I also believe there are multiple hints in the book that confirm the “keyword”. I think of it this way and maybe you can as well. A keyword is supposed to unlock something so you can move forward. IMO, the “keyword”, does just that and is the foundation for the correct solution. F said he felt like an architect drawing the poem. If that is true then one would need to start with a foundation in order to continue building. Correct? You can’t frame a structure without the base. You can’t install the plumbing or wiring unless you have floors and walls. IMO, the poem has to show us the foundation and continue on tell we have a finished structure.

      • HMA,
        You could be right!
        (Remember, by the way, that “a word that is key” is the phrase that was used.)
        In particular, I agree that the notion of what an “architect” does is important to a solution.
        Safe searching, everyone!
        Geoff
        “Have flashlight, will travel”

        • Geoff, HMA
          Interesting enough with the word Architect to Drawing. Not in the sense of a blueprint but a legal standing… We have been told we need to think, analyze and “plan”
          Other than packing extra socks what is it we need to plan on to “retrieve the chest?”
          I can almost see stanza 3 in regards to just that… something we need to do to be able to retrieve the chest.

          It’s been an interesting ride, the chase, looking up words and how they relate to so many different usages, and still have the poem to be straightforwards.

          In regards to the first clue and knowing… I think it’s obvious that no one will “know” for a fact until the job is completed. I look at the comment this way… I have a vehicle that the sticker says gets 500 miles per tank, I have a trip to that involves 475 miles to travel. I’m pretty certain I should make the trip, yet there’s no fact that I will, until I reach my destination. Kinda like;
          *A good solve is frequently lost in a poor execution

          • Seeker –

            “Other than packing extra socks what is it we need to plan on to “retrieve the chest?”
            I can almost see stanza 3 in regards to just that… something we need to do to be able to retrieve the chest.”

            I don’t think you will need to do much other than walk with one foot and then the other. A good backpack would be ideal so that you can conceal the chest from anyone who might be in the vicinity. I don’t think a lot of people frequent the area where the chest is hidden but it’s possible that they would be in close proximity.

            “In regards to the first clue and knowing… I think it’s obvious that no one will “know” for a fact until the job is completed.”

            It’s true that until the chest is secured, nobody will be able to know that the path they followed was correct. It will become “fact” when F makes the announcement that the chase for Indulgence has ended.

      • IMO you are right that the word that is key is hinted to in the book.

        Once you know what it is, you simply use the poem as if it was a blueprint and you are constructing something as the clues are extracted. Those clue solutions indicate the real location we are to go, the words “WWWH, hoB, meek, and all the rest” are not enough to locate the place we need to be, only the solutions do.

        IMO of course.

  29. Zap –

    I will plead with you like I plead with all the winter posters that are sure they are onto something.

    I hear you saying you can’t tell us what your thinking is because it’s so different than most. You could be right but you’d be the first one in I don’t know 3 years maybe 4.

    Here’s the thing. If you tell us then we can say oh yeah the ol’ not Fenn’s voice in the first stanza we went over that is 2013 on MW. Ok the theory that points of interest like the Blaze are not on the map but then you draw lines from one to the other and they cross at a point on the map theory and we covered that TTOTC in 2015.

    Even better we could say wow YOU ARE THE FIRST PERSON out of tens of thousands to think of that and we all owe you a debt of gratitude for advancing the Chase!

    Of course you won’t. So please, after you run your search succeed of fail come back and share it for the benefit of the next one up.

    Until they know the courage …
    Until they understand
    That the only courage there is is
    To pull the next man up
    Pull the next woman up
    Pull the next up
    Up
    Up

    • Hi Lugnutz,

      “I hear you saying you can’t tell us what your thinking is because it’s so different than most. You could be right but you’d be the first one in I don’t know 3 years maybe 4.”

      Well, I think you’d agree it’s going to take a unique approach to solve Forrest’s poem — something unexpected. After all, none of the more direct approaches have panned out.

      “Here’s the thing. If you tell us then we can say oh yeah the ol’ not Fenn’s voice in the first stanza we went over that is 2013 on MW. Ok the theory that points of interest like the Blaze are not on the map but then you draw lines from one to the other and they cross at a point on the map theory and we covered that TTOTC in 2015.”

      I haven’t read all 171,000 posts on this site, but I’m betting I’ve read over 100,000 of them in the last year and a half, and nothing remotely similar to my approach has been discussed. That said, if my approach happens to be right, then I would have to have some company for at least the first two clues. But if that’s true, whoever those two-clue-solvers are, none have posted those clue solutions here (to my great relief!)

      • Well you don’t have to tell me anything. Now you are on the blog so maybe you want to share ideas. I mean why else would anyone participate? Pure one-up-mans-ship?

        At any rate. After you go out in the spring i do hope you will come back and tell us all about it.

        I have a lot of ideas that I don’t bring up on this blog. I keep meaning to email Dal to see if I can do an Armchair Adventure post. Then I could show my map and the 30 gold stars that map my various solves across the 4 states. If he likes the idea we can discuss the various locations.

        You and I differ in that I do not see the sharing of information as a threat to my victory. Somone still needs to find the treasure even if they have the correct solvent. Plus there is more to the chase than finding the treasure. Who was it that said the prize is in the journey?

        Lugnutz out

        • Lugnutz –

          Have you kept up with the posts that Zap has posted over the last couple of months?

          He has made many suggestions that the book contains hints valuable hints. A few examples were postmarks, For Who The Bell Tolls when f describes the plot of A Farewell To Arms, pages containing many spelling errors, the Border’s, Border, and borderline biddies in Important Literature. This was just sampling of what I’ve seen him post multiple times.

          It seems as though he has shared a lot of ideas that might be helpful. I realize a lot of different ideas have been suggested over the years and Fenn himself has said that someone is going to figure it out at some point. I don’t have the exact quote but I do remember that when I heard it or read that statement, I wondered if maybe he was talking about their being a pattern that would emerge. Since TTOTC does contain a very large number of mistakes and Dal has shared 2 videos of Forrest talking about the mistakes not errors in his writings it does seem reasonable that maybe his mistakes are more than simple mistakes.

          • Yes I have read all the posts including the post that said all 14 are the wrong day and the chances of doing this by mistake are unfathomable. Actually the opposite is true. If you are just making up dates like Sunday June 11 1943 the chance of getting the day correct is 1 in 7. Not very good odds and they don’t improve in your next random assignment.

            What would make stamp research interesting would be showing us how the findings relate to clues in the poem. And then where the clue send you in the map.

            Like stamp 3 relates to warm water halt and lead me to Stillwater. Then I would say. That’s cool but the clue leads to Stillwater with or without the stamp cipher and the first searchers I am aware if went there in the summer of 2011 or whatever the case is.

            Right now there are 2 searchers on the blog that are publicly 100% sure if their solve. Happens every winter and we don’t know if there is a chicken dinner for 5 months. I am asking them tell us about it now ir come back and tell us all about it then.

            Maybe Zap has cracked the code. Maybe looking at images in the book is a futile effort and maybe Forrest has actually said as much.

            Sometimes I think if Forrest said he had tuna for lunch everyone would be combing the map for Tuna Whyoming

          • Lugnutz –

            “Yes I have read all the posts including the post that said all 14 are the wrong day and the chances of doing this by mistake are unfathomable. Actually the opposite is true. If you are just making up dates like Sunday June 11 1943 the chance of getting the day correct is 1 in 7. Not very good odds and they don’t improve in your next random assignment.”

            So you read the post this morning from Zap to Jake that the postmarks aren’t really worth focusing too much time on until a later clue is solved? Also he mentioned that they won’t mean anything to someone who has not solved a clue. I would agree that the postmarks are a very, very subtle way of providing confirmation for a clue but since F took the time to make most of them with the wrong day and only two are identical it should at the very least cause one to wonder why.

            “What would make stamp research interesting would be showing us how the findings relate to clues in the poem. And then where the clue send you in the map.”

            IMO the “stamps” are important but not until you move much further into the poem. I don’t think it’s the stamps that hold the hints but possibly the page/s that do.

            “Right now there are 2 searchers on the blog that are publicly 100% sure if their solve. Happens every winter and we don’t know if there is a chicken dinner for 5 months. I am asking them tell us about it now ir come back and tell us all about it then.”

            I can understand your skepticism. Nobody to date has come up with the chest but that doesn’t mean that it won’t happen in the next year. If we are to believe that the challenge given to us is impossible then why would anyone want to spend their time on this chase? I think it’s very possible to solve (the poem) as do many others that continue to spend resources to discover either the chest or other answers in this journey.

            “Maybe Zap has cracked the code. Maybe looking at images in the book is a futile effort and maybe Forrest has actually said as much.”

            IMO the images in the book won’t help a searcher unless an actual clue in the pome has been solved. IMO, when a clue in the pome is solved, or you think it has been solved, you can go back to the book and you will find clear evidence that the clue is correct. Some of the hints are so clever that it could cause some to faint!

            “Sometimes I think if Forrest said he had tuna for lunch everyone would be combing the map for Tuna Whyoming”

            I couldn’t agree more. IMO not everything that F says is meant to be taken literally, however with the prize involved it’s very easy to let imagination run wild. I can only speak for myself when I say that spending time on the poem to see it for what it really is will pay dividends. F is right when he says go back to the poem. IMO it contains the answers that are needed. If a searcher does figure out a clue and does not share it with the public it’s for two reasons. One being, it’s much too valuable to give away. Two it would spoil the fun in finding the answers yourself.

            The chase is meant to be fun and I see some that get so frustrated that they either give up or lash out at others. I have to dial back the time I spent on the chase at times for various reasons and one being that it can be appear to be very challenging.

          • You don’t need to quite me in a response I’m aware of what I said it I can scroll.

            I’m just pointing out the pattern the Circle if the Chase.

            Hear Me All take a look at comments from 2013. What do you see? Unfamiliar names. The makeup and conversation was entirely different.

            The constant is thus. In winter when we don’t search we here from people that are certain of their solves. There is nothing new. We are not discussing anything that hasn’t already been discussed. All the theories and ciphers and not just on this blog . There are many you know.

            What we do see that’s new are the actual locations people search. Faulkner is heading further NW than most would for example.

            Here is a quick unrelated but related note. The evidence will show that Mr Fenn often spells things wrong. He also uses words wrong. Who knows why.

          • Lugnutz –

            I am aware that the names of many searchers from 2013 are different than now. The ideas that are thrown around for the most part are similar. IMO the correct solution will be a lot different than the way the poem has been approached in the past.

            Even though f barley graduated from school, I believe he is more clever than most give him credit for. He knows exactly what he is doing when he makes mistakes with grammar. IMO you can take that to the bank!

          • We agree that what some attribute to error we attribute to intent. Where we differ is i think Fenn talks and writes in a manner that is fun or what we used to call punk. He’s antiestablishment which is what adults in a polite society say instead of he’s a smart ass.

            I just don’t think he’s giving any clues when he speaks ever. There’s no secret code to be cracked. Just a poem with clues to a treasure which he wrote after he hid it and which he assigned an arbitrary beginning to. Thankfully he has told us all where to begin and where to take it from there.

        • Lugnutz: “Well you don’t have to tell me anything. Now you are on the blog so maybe you want to share ideas. I mean why else would anyone participate? Pure one-up-mans-ship?”

          I’m perplexed — I’ve been here for quite some time, and in particular I think I’ve shared a significant amount of information over the last 6 months. Certainly no one could accuse me of being stingy with ideas. Secretive on the clue answers, sure, but not on advice as to how to solve the poem.

          “At any rate. After you go out in the spring i do hope you will come back and tell us all about it.”

          You can count on an update either way.

          “You and I differ in that I do not see the sharing of information as a threat to my victory.”

          That much is true! Again, I ~do~ share a lot of information, in my opinion — if my solution turns out to be correct, everyone will see that, and perhaps some will question why I risked being as forthcoming as I was!

          “Plus there is more to the chase than finding the treasure. Who was it that said the prize is in the journey?”

          I have already enjoyed the relief of solving Forrest’s intellectual challenge — at least to my satisfaction. It remains for me to complete the challenge by tackling the not-insignificant physical and logistic hurdles to retrieving Indulgence.

          • Zap –

            I don’t when you wrote this but I just saw it. I’m talking to Hear M’all about you.

            Your not sharing the details as you know. You are not saying where you are going. What you are doing as many do in winter is needle us with what I would call jibberish. Happens in December every year. Like I said maybe your the one. As you say you have enjoyed the relief of having solved Fenns intellectual challenge. All the others were wrong and your right and I’m sure we will hear about it all winter.

            To me though if your were confident you would reveal more. The fact that you don’t betrays your insecurity. In my opinion.

          • Lugnutz — everyone knows I search in Montana, and only Montana, and with minimal research on Dal’s site you would know that I’m in the same ~general~ part of Montana as Jake, but definitely not the same specific area.

            “To me though if your were confident you would reveal more. The fact that you don’t betrays your insecurity.”

            I have minimal insecurity regarding the validity of my approach. I have GREAT insecurity about blabbing critical elements of it in a public forum! You don’t seem to believe so, but I think I’ve been very generous in the hint department. Sufficiently so that at least one other regular poster here has figured out the same first two clues based on some of those hints coupled with his own doggedness, and is well on his way to solving more. I have been giving hints how to fish, but I’m not going to put the trout on your plate.

            You give the impression that you believe it would be a small thing for me to just give you and everyone the keyword, or tell you all my WWWH, and that this would be minimal assistance that couldn’t possibly threaten discovery of my whole solution. But it took me almost a year to figure out (my) keyword; once I had it, everything else fell into place in a matter of months. Forrest himself said the clues get easier as you go, so do you think it would be “sage” to give away the hardest one?

          • Sir there is no keyword. That’s maybe the biggest boondoggle of the Chase. He said word that is key. He also said don’t mess with the poem. Also no one talked about keywords before he said it. I guess that menas that according to you it wasn’t possible to find the TC before that time right? And it also means that Forrest was wrong when he said yiu only need the poem.

            I suppose I just don’t see the point of saying you have solved the poem. I mean no one will know right?

            You think someone solved the first two clues based on your comments. Wow! For all you know thousands of people may have come to the same conclusion(s) with or without you.

            But don’t take it all personal Zap Your the i don’t know 50th person to post in November or December that you solved it. I don’t understand why anyone of you do it. Ignoring you for a second in every other case up until now it just seems like boasting.

            It’s not you it’s me
            Lugnutz out

          • Zap, some of us (well, me i guess) value the things you have shared. I would feel like I didn’t earn it if someone just gave me the answers. IMO you go about it the right way – nudges toward the right way of thinking without revealing the reward. If anything, the thing people give you incessant grief over is what drew me to value your responses – people don’t seem to understand that when Fenn mentions you will move with confidence, he means it. Something has to notify you that you are on the right path. *grin*

          • Your missing my point Wy Girl. I don’t need him to tell me whatever it is he knows and I certainly don’t need any nudges in the right direction. but I also don’t need the 4 months if boasting.

          • I just took a few minutes to read this discussion thread. It seems that each of you have valid points.
            Lugnutz, I do agree that we should “help the next man up” to a certain extent. But I don’t think we should do so in a way that just tells the next man in line exactly what to do. What’s the fun in that? That’s what this is all about, the fun in finding our way through the maze!
            IMO the architect was making a blueprint to far more than a map to a box of gold.
            Zap, I’ve been following your comments with interest. It seems to me you have been giving A LOT of GREAT information on book hints. I’m also in the camp that the clues are placed to help confirm that the solver has a clue correct. But IMO there is MUCH more to it than that.
            I believe that the poem and book together are a puzzle to be worked. Yes the poem can be deciphered without the book but to go with confidence the book is a BIG help.

          • Wy Girl

            Zap caught me a bad time. If you are reading all the comment threads he was the second person in two days to say only he had the answer and we will all see in the spring. I heard it all before.

          • Imajin: thank you very much for your kind reply. You have a clear understanding of what I’m attempting to do. It’s folks like you that my posts are targeted at: searchers who are open to gentle nudges in what I think are profitable directions. I know some don’t get my motivation, and that’s a perfectly predictable part of human nature.

            Now Lugnutz: you claim there is no keyword and that it’s a boondoggle to go searching for it. Yes, Forrest’s precise phraseology was “tight focus with a word that is key,” not “keyword” per se, and I’m with you on that — “keyword” has undertones associated with it that are quite distinct from “a word that is key.” But it becomes tedious and awkward to consistently use “word that is key” on this blog when everyone knows what we’re referring to.

            The bottom line is there is some word that’s important — Forrest has said as much. Some folks have figured out what it is. I certainly believe I have, since without it you’re lost.

            “He also said don’t mess with the poem.”

            I agree. And I don’t touch the poem. I don’t rearrange stanzas, lines, words or letters. Everything is exactly where it needs to be. And I have even cautioned those that would rearrange anything that you could destroy a clue.

            “Also no one talked about keywords before he said it. I guess that means that according to you it wasn’t possible to find the TC before that time right?”

            I doubt I would have called it a keyword myself. It’s simply the first clue. It is “key” in the sense that I think it would be very difficult to make sense of the poem without finding it.

            “And it also means that Forrest was wrong when he said you only need the poem.”

            How so? The first clue — the word that is key, if you will — is secreted in the poem.

            “You think someone solved the first two clues based on your comments.”

            I’ll be more specific — I *know* someone solved the same first two clues I did; that doesn’t conclusively mean we’ve both solved *Forrest’s* first two clues. But I happen to believe they are correct.

            “Wow! For all you know thousands of people may have come to the same conclusion(s) with or without you.”

            Who knows what the actual number is? Even Forrest doesn’t know. If I was forced to throw out a w.a.g., I’d guess several dozen have solved the first two clues based on an extrapolation of Forrest’s comments over the years — and they all did so quite without my help since I’m a comparative newcomer. But whoever these people are, they are apparently keeping mum about the solutions on this blog, which is fine by me.

          • Hang in there Lugnutz. I know it gets old listening to the genius noobs blessing us poor dummies with their brilliance, but alas we are just too dumb to understand the breadcrumbs they bestow upon us. They are such wonderful and giving folks basking in their glory. If they did any research at all they would see how silly they sound.

            I’m thinking about getting up a pot on which way Zap will go when he flames out.

          • I just wish I was smarter Goofy. Then I could tell everyone I solved the clues 5 months before I look for the treasure.

            Just kidding I’m joking I really don’t want to see another person that confident go out and find whatever the previous searchers left and the disappear without ever sharing his idea.

            Hey Goof I do want to publish my map of search spots and openly discuss ideas with searchers about why I like those areas. Armchair Commandos style. How would I do that? Put it together and email Dal?

            Loving Lugnutz of Love

          • Lugnutz, I take issue with this quote of yours:

            “If you are reading all the comment threads he was the second person in two days to say only he had the answer and we will all see in the spring.”

            I have never said any such thing. You pretend that I came on here, unsolicited, boasting that I’ve solved the whole thing and I’m the only one, neener-neener-neener. I have NEVER done so. People have asked me questions here about my solution (whether it’s right or wrong), and I’ve tried to answer them, short of giving clue answers. How is that different from how, for instance, JDA has answered questions about his solution? He’s just as confident in his spot and poem-reading approach, but I don’t see you jumping down his throat.

            I’ve offered ideas of some things to look for in the poem and in the book. I thought some would find them interesting, perhaps even suspicious. If you don’t, don’t sweat it.

  30. I think it’s important, to ID the hints in the book, the ones that are hints to parts of the poem, Not find more clues from the hints.. get it?

    • I would suggest that people not go overboard in finding hints in the book. What someone may think as a hint may not be a hint at all. The more incorrect hints one develops, the greater the chance for failure. I just would suggest to not go overboard.
      MM

      • Searchers who want to find “hints” in the book convey the impression to me that they have given up on trying to solve the poem. Relying on TTOTC in any way reeks of desperation, in my opinion.

  31. The first stanza tells 2 stories, IMHO., it tells you of a treasure hunt, and relates to an geographic area. You need to read the book, and relate words to feelings, to see that second part, IMHO. IE: treasure , riches are memories, and or vice versa.
    It’s possible to get the correct wwwh with or without considering the first stanza, but it’s in the realm of a blind squirel finding a nut without that first stanza area, and then it’s still a crapp shoot. Just some thoughts….

    • I might agree. If you combine your idea of two stories in the first stanza with what I have found below, then you might say that we are looking in the “treasure” state at a certain place described in said stanza.

      Location + confirmation.

      Just saying,

      Scott W.

  32. Just wondering. Has anyone found specific coordinates in the first stanza?

    I’ve never been a big fan of this type of thinking, but then again, I have had a lot of time to think lately. I’m not even sure I can believe what I have found; it has to be coincidence.

    I think it is odd that it puts you in Stillwater county directly above Cook City – Silver Gate.

    Skipping ahead for brevity , I can quickly find myself heading down (but North) toward Nye.

    No code. No cipher. Just plain old imagination. Easier than a “Christmas Story” Ovaltine ring.

    Could it be?

    Scott W.

    • Hey Q1,
      I think I found the cords here in the 1st stanza 45°02’11.2″N 111°24’26.7″W

      I hope your doing better & be able to continue the chase.

      • I am at 109.9. Could be a difference in how we see /covert the numbers.

        We are both very close in proximity though. I’ll re-check what I have found.

        Scott W

      • Jake,

        Sorry I didn’t answer your most important question. I didn’t want to upset Goofy. Second thoughts though…

        Yes!!! Much better!!! I will get progress results on January 18th (I think/hope). I have every expectation I will get positive news. However, I won’t know absolutely for sure until next October if I am cured. Until then, I can only hope for tests that are continuous improvement, or at least staying the same.

        I am approaching the entire ordeal with “confidence”!!

        Again – I feel wonderful and thank you so much for asking.

        Goofy – sorry for being off topic, but I don’t really care since I was asked and I am feeling so great!!! Hope you understand.

        Won’t happen again. – promise. 🙂

        Scott W.

        • Q1,
          I wouldn’t worry about Goofy & Dal about going off topic about this topic.

          There are some things in life that supersede this.

          Stay strong & keep a positive attitude & I hope you will be able to get back on the trail again & get closer to the treasure.

          Say what you will & don’t hold back.

      • I like that place Jake. I remember looking near No Man Ridge and Falls but never completed it.

      • “I think I found the cords here in the 1st stanza 45°02’11.2″N 111°24’26.7″W”

        Hey Jake…may I be so forward and ask…”How did you come to this conclusion?”

        Best regards,

        • Tim,
          If you take the letters in the 1st stanza & give them numerical values based on there placement in a grid & divide that number by the number of letters in the sentence, then take that number and multiply it by .042563 which is the number I got out of the last stanza, this will give you these coordinates.

          Does this help?

          • Thanks Jake….it does.

            I’m not one for this level of play, but it is an interesting take on the poem.

            Is this “ciphering”, when we aren’t supposed to, or……”this is no need”…..

            So, if you do find it…I commend you on being wise enough to figure that out.

            :o)

            Good luck sir!

          • That is truly amazing. I once invested in a Richard Simmons weight loss plan called “Deal a Meal” and I lost exactly 0.042563 pounds per month on the plan. What a coincidence.

          • I did? :o)

            You aren’t spamming me, are you?

            *winks*

            You can spam with the winning solve though!

            Cheers!

    • Well – you looked at the map. Take the surrounding features for what you will. I did key on Sheep Mt., but I had a different Brown in mind.

      You have to at least admit that the area is interesting. Even more so when you follow Stillwater River toward Nye; it does draw ever nigh.

      I wish I could post images. I would show you the method in two easy steps.

      To get there, just look at the Roman numerals in the first stanza. Lines one and two get you to latitude. Lines three and four get you to longitude.

      I used an online roman numeral converter to check my “math”. Not really math though.

      Roman numerals are “i” “v” “x” “L” “c” d” “m”

      http://www.rapidtables.com/convert/number/roman-numerals-converter.htm

      If you mess with the poem it will never work.

      Scott W.

      • Scott, not to nitpick but above you said that your solution did not involve any conversions, ciphers or anything like that. Technically you are converting English words into roman numerals and skipping over letters to do so. That would a form of a cipher and although it doesn’t change the poem, it ignores parts of it.

        Having said that, the same can be said about my solution which has nothing to do with roman numerals, no ciphers, no anagrams, and also does not modify the poem. It only uses the poem, no books, scrap books, no stretching words or using phonetics. All it requires is to imagine that you are in the poem and all the places that it speaks of exist only in your imagination. It gives you the clues, at that point the clue solutions map to the real world.

        I was just pointing that out because technically you need to not modify the poem, but you do need to take the clues out in the right order and work with them outside the poem. So technically it is encrypted, its just that it does not use a traditional or documented cipher IMO. It’s kind of brilliant.

        So in a way, I think we are both on to something AND we are both following the rules. But we are using a form of cipher 😀

        • Hey Wy,

          I said no codes or ciphers; nothing regarding conversions. I only provided the conversion utility for those who might be unfamiliar with Roman Numerals and what the proper representation is. For instance 99 is not properly represented by iC. Although that works, the proper form is XCiX.

          If this “find” really is correct, I would consider it “hidden in plain sight”. Didn’t we all learn Roman Numerals in grade school? I did.

          I stated that I am no fan for this type of solve, but you have to admit the coincidences are remarkable. – StillWater all the way to Nye. And there is more.

          What about those looking for synonyms? How close is that to a cipher/code? Are they messing with the poem? Nigh=left for example.

          I’m an open minded guy and I have posted a lot of ideas that vary from one end of the spectrum to the other.

          Nothing is right and nothing is wrong. However, the history of the Chase dictates the later is the most probable. 🙂

          Scott W.

          • Its still a cipher because you are pulling only certain letters out of the poem (not the entire words) and converting them to roman numerals.

            ICMIV is a roman numeral, “and” is not, neither is “alone”, “in”, “riches”, etc.

            And yeah, synonyms, homonyms, phonetic spelling, letter substitution, language translation, bible quotes, and all that jazz is a cipher.

            It may in fact be what we need to do, I am not saying it is wrong, just pointing out that it is a cipher.

            I did play around with it this afternoon, and came up with at least 5 different ways to convert it. Two in MT, two in WY, and one in SD.

            Some poem stats are:
            Most used words: THE, AND, I
            Top 10 letters are: E,O,T,A,N,R,H,D,I,L
            Longest word: Treasures (9 letters)
            9 sentences
            Al least 9 clues
            166 words
            6 stanzas
            Only missing letter = x

            Without using anagrams or subsitution, you can locate probably 10+ complete words that do not appear when read left to right if you extract them using the 2nd, 3rd and 4th stanza as a set of rules explaining what to do with a word that is key.

            I do have one solve in progress that does use one of those methods. It is probably the same one Zap is talking about, it basically uses a word that is key to extract out complete words (without only taking a few characters, I mean using entire words in the poem, without re-arranging the letters). Its pretty slick, it mentions a state, a well known landmark, a Bur Oak tree, and a couple other things. Not only does it do that, it creates a colophon using complete words not just O or w. To top it off, the last two stanzas describe the sentence you extract.

            So don’t get me wrong, I don’t rule out anything. Just saying, its a cipher, we can’t deny it. LOL

          • Thanks Wy.

            You have opened my eyes. I can’t believe I ever posted such absolute garbage. For crying out loud – what was I ever thinking.

            However, as I said above, it is a pretty cool coincidence . Especially when I was never looking there to begin with.

            My initial post:
            “I’ve never been a big fan of this type of thinking, but then again, I have had a lot of time to think lately. I’m not even sure I can believe what I have found. IT HAS TO BE COINCIDENCE.”

            And coincidence it is. My point was that there are immediately six items that should just jump off the map and hit you smack square between the eyes. It’s definitely the first time I have seen Nye/Nigh come in to play that well.

            Am I going to hop on a plane and go to Montana? HECK NO!

            I’m still looking just north of the Salt River Range, to the west of the Church, staying clear of Death Canyon, but not as far as Mt. Meek. I’m leaning toward Wimpy’s Knob because I was told to listen good and to “go in peace”, and the blaze is All bright.

            Detail of the above paragraph was posted about a year or so ago in an old nine-clues. This is the solve I am sticking to.

            Scott W.

    • Most of us have fooled around with the words or the letters in the poem in some way…I get bored waiting for the ferry some days..so I play with the poem..

      Years ago I stumbled upon the fact that in every stanza there are the right letters to spell out Yellowstone…
      In some stanzas there are enough additional letters to spell out Firehole, Gibbon and Madison….
      Of course that’s the place that many believe is WWWH.

      What does it mean?…
      Depends on what you want to believe or what you are trying to prove to yourself.

      I haven’t tried it but I would imagine you could also find enough letters in each stanza to spell out Rio Grande and Chama…
      Lots of letters give you lots of possibilities to stretch your imagination…
      and prove nothing other than your own need for some sort of verification to make you feel better about your solution…

      • I like your thoughts Dal; I can actually say I have never messed around with the poem trying to find or make up words as you discuss above.

        “and prove nothing other than your own need for some sort of verification to make you feel better about your solution…”

        I suspect that the person who finds the chest some day will do so because of ideas or thoughts that came to them from the poem and probably the book, not by trying to find something in either of these things that ‘confirms’ what someone has previously thought up to be a possible solution.

      • Hey Dal, I see ‘LUMI’ in the 8th sentence. And, isn’t it Lummi Island “Not far, but too far to walk”? This confirm my suspicion, Dal is holding the treasure. 🙂

      • WOW you got me thinking! I was able to spell out at least one planet in our solar system with letters in each stanza. ALL these planet face the Rockie Mtns. at least once every 24-hours. Maybe this is why ff believes the Chase may go on for 500 years? Could ff be a self-taught rocket scientist? Many would say, “YES!” You think that I am crazy???

        IMHO, the Chase will conclude in 2017 with a very simple solution and the Fenn family will throw a party to celebrate new found privacy and security. Yet, the finder will conclude that, “The Chase” will live on…without imposing upon (ff) the “Chasesmith.”

        Just a prediction…and MHO.

        • Speaking of messing with letters, did anyone else see the corner letters of the poem spell “IDEA”?

          • Took me a while, but I found them –
            1st letter = Last line – Stasnza #6 “I” – last letter same line = gol”D” = Last letter, last word first line stanza #1 = ther”E”, and 1st letter, 1st line = “A”
            Good Eye Eaglesabound – JDA

          • Thanks, not that it means anything.
            But for fun, draw a line from the A to the D, then from the E to the I and you have an X.
            As F said, read the poem as if you were putting an X on a map, or something like that.

          • Yes— the corner letters spell IDEA, and if you re-arrange the letters in the poem just the right way you will see a light bulb. It’s actually quite astounding.

          • Sparrow,
            Equally astounding, after the x is placed, the circle each stanza, you get a caterpillar!
            Oh and there’s MORE!!!
            I’m not poking fun st anyone but myself…truly!!! 🙂

        • That easily proves the point…

          Bold prediction for 2017… maybe it’s you, congrats. I only have a small glimpse still, must’ve picked it up some where.

          • Oz, I assume that you are a wise man from a western state and know the etiquette involved with my dilemma. If a private property is not fenced, is it required to get permission before hiking across? It seems like you can go wherever you can walk “in the woods” but I am a land owner myself and sensitive to trespassing. However, a little hard to do when on a long hike in the West. IF, this stumps the great Oz, can anyone else help me?

          • Well LMN, in the west private property without a fence is called a target range. If the property owner doesn’t shoot you out right he can detain you until the Sheriff (his brother-in-law) shows up (could be several hours) to throw you in jail to wait for the judge (his cousin) to give you a very stiff fine and maybe some jail time. You will of course be liable for any damages you caused to the private property.

            This whole process can take a long time and no one really cares about your comfort level.

            Be wise…..

          • Thanks for the good counsel Goofy! Thanks for the valued opinion JDA!
            Thanks for the link Oz! Very informative and VERY interesting.

      • Well said, dal.

        In one of the stanzas, don’t remember which, I once found the exact spelling of the name of Franklin Roosevelt’s sister. I rather doubt that my discovery had much to do with the treasure hunt.

        However, I will point out an apparent contradiction that has never been resolved to my satisfaction.

        Given the vagueness of the poem, how do we, in FF’s words (p. 132) find “nine clues that if followed precisely … lead to … the treasure”?

        In other words, how does a searcher convert vagueness into preciseness?

        Ken (in Texas)

        • Ken;

          You ask a question that is at the heart of solving the puzzle, “In other words, how does a searcher convert vagueness into preciseness?”

          I do not want my answer to sound trite in any way. I hope that my answer comes across as clear and well thought out.

          For me, the answer to your question is that I try to eliminate the vagueness by giving definition to each word, line and sentence.

          As an example, let’s take the first stanza, which to me is the first clue.

          “As I have gone alone in there
          and with my treasures bold,
          I can keep my secret where,
          and hint of riches new and old.”

          To me, this first line is both a clue and a warning. Why do I think that? To me…

          “As I have gone alone in there…”
          As = Since. Since Forrest “went alone in there” – we too should be ALONE as we go IN THERE” This is a warning. Go IN THERE alone, or at least do not be seen going IN THERE alone.

          OK, where is “IN THERE”? At this point, we do not know, but it prepares us for things to come. Once you decide on a location where you think the treasure lies, you must Look IN that area, and not just AT that area.

          By solving later lines in the puzzle, I have decided that “IN THERE” = a geographically definable area in Wyoming, it means IN a very large expanse of woods, and also a very small expanse of woods.

          So, I am starting to get some definition.

          “Since I have gone alone into this geographically describable area of Wyoming…”
          and: “Since I have gone alone into a very large expanse of woods…”
          and: “Since I have gone alone into a rather small expanse of woods…”

          “…and with my treasures bold…” = the Treasure Chest and its contents.

          “…I can keep my secret where…” I know where the Treasure Chest and its contents are secreted.

          “…and hint of riches new and old.” I (Forrest Fenn) can now tell others – Give them hints – about what is included in the Treasure Chest.

          The first stanza now has definition, and not vagueness – WHY? because I “defined” each and every word in the stanza. I gave them “meaning” – I gave them shape.

          “Since I have gone alone into a geographically definable area in Wyoming, into a very large expanse of woods, and into a smaller expanse of woods – – – with my Treasure Chest and its contents; I (Forrest) know where it is hidden, and I can also now tell others about the chest, and its contents.” (sic)

          At least for me, I believe that that is what I have been able to do. I hope that this answer does not appear trite…after all, all that I have done, is do what any searcher tries to do…Define exactly what Forrest meant when HE used this very vague language.

          Hope this helps Ken. I very good question. I am sure you posted it a bit tongue-in-cheek, sure that no one would be foolish enough to give a complete answer – well, just call me stupid. JDA

          • JDA … Thanks very much for your response, which has given me some new insight that I didn’t have before, on reasonable ways to achieve preciseness.

            My only quibble with your method is that it is still “somewhat” vague and subject to interpretation. On the other hand, I could argue that the poem is art, not science, so it’s really not reasonable to expect mathematical precision. Ergo, maybe FF would have been clearer if he had not included the word “precisely” on p. 132.

            I’m glad I persevered in looking for a response to my message. Your response unfortunately was hard to find, given all the rancor and animosity expressed in long posts that appear down-thread. Course the difficulty in finding message/responses is clearly a function of how this message board is set up.

            Thanks again.

            Ken (in Texas) 🙂

          • Ken;

            What you perceive as still “Somewhat” vague, is of course because I did NOT say EXACTLY what my geographically Definable spot in Wyoming is. Nor did I say EXACTLY what my very large expanse of woods is etc. I have to keep some secrets you know. In MY SOLVE, these ambiguities are obviously much crisper and detailed. Other than these three bits of “Fudging”, what I wrote is identical to my actual solve. I hope you understand my reluctance to publish everything since I am, at this moment, empty handed.

            Thanks for responding to my post – JDA

          • Ken;

            You know that you can type F3. A small box will come up on the lower left corner of the page. Type in your name, or mine, or whatever you want to search for, and click on the up or down arrow, and it will find it for you.
            JDA

          • JDA: I’m afraid your F3 solution is web-browser-specific. Hitting that key in Firefox is not going to initiate a search. Firefox (and presumably other browsers) have a “Find in this page” button, which *will* work — but only for the currently displayed page. There is no global-blog keyword or keyphrase search that will work. There is a “Search the blog” search box in the righthand column of this page — right under Dal’s picture. Try it with “JDA”. You will discover that it does not provide a thorough search (though I certainly wish it had this capability!)

          • Thanks, Dal, for the clarification! I had wondered how the search logic worked, since I could tell it wasn’t picking up on submissions like this one. I take it there is no easy way to augment the search function to parse all 170,000+ “thoughts” posted by submitters?

          • Zap-
            I have not seen a plug-in that does that and it is not a function WordPress provides..
            But you can use Google to perform a global search for a word or phrase on any website…
            Use the URL bar…type in the word or phrase you are looking for followed by a colon and the website url…

            For instance:
            Lets say I wanted to search all of the blog for comments made by you…
            I would open up Google and type the following into the URL bar-
            Zaphod:www.dalneitzel.com

            It will search both the posts and the comments…and serve up a few hundred or so pages where that word appears …

            Obviously the more unique your phrase the better…

          • Jake-
            I dunno…but I removed it. Probably a draft that I somehow pushed out and then lost track of…
            I have more than once pushed that “publish” button before I should have…
            Thanks for pointing it out..

  33. There is a good amount of discussion about the “key word”. When a friend told me it was in the poem, but not actually a word used in the poem, I was confused. Thankfully, I am beginning to understand it better after 4 months of searching, but still have a long way to go.

    • Some casual reading on a winters night on a “word that is key” ….. from Library Science, a key word is often taken from the title of of the document or book. The only TTOTC title word that has potential to my mind is CHASE. A chase is a line, track, trail, groove, channel, etc. It is also a private preserve stocked with game for hunters. Fish?
      More research may be needed… but not by me.

      • Don’t forget
        I give you TITLE to the gold.
        Forrest’s direction to look at the title.
        Now the question is what is the title of the poem. I agree with you. He is directing the reader to the word chase.
        Look to the Chase Ranch in New Mexico if you’re so inclined.

    • Well… that’s kind of my point regarding coincidence. I mapped out the coordinates, and of all places found myself in Stillwater. I would say that it is a great place for “any” water to halt.

      IMO, of course.

      Scott W.

      • That whole area is nice, not my place but nice.
        My favorite areas of the Rockies are in Wyoming and Montana, it just seems to take you back in time (in a good way).

        Colorado is weird. Don’t get me wrong, it is very historical, beautiful, and of course contains the highest peak. It just seems too modern for me, its like taking California and raising it a mile higher, not my kind of place.

        New Mexico is also beautiful with a lot of history and art, but if I was living in the mountains I would want to be further north.

        Either way, you are looking in a beautiful area Scott.

  34. Just a different way to look.
    Where is FF starting point. Where did he frequent. It may be better to locate a few places he enjoyed and then use these spots to begin his travel in an afternoon to and from the hiding place. Say two hours from his point of origin.
    Also a side note. What in his book did not need to be there. A different way to look at things.
    MM

    • MM,

      That’s a tough one. To determine what did not need to be there indicates you have at least an idea of what does.

      I’ve become a poem purest and I have put away the book and any “hints” it may contain.

      I have posted partial solves in the past that do rely on the book for hints, and my favorite is the one that talks about Wimpy’s and the Church – both found in the preface. – may have been over a year ago, but worth the look if you are interested.

      Scott W.

  35. Why something that doesn’t have to be there???? He said he did NOT deliberately put the hints in the book to help the searchers… to me that means the parts that ARE hints HAD to be there to tell HIS story.

    • There is one picture that technically is out of place from all the others. Which I perceive as a major clue.
      MM pop by

  36. He said it contains several good hints and a couple that are kinda out there, maybe that’s the ones you referenced

    • “There are nine clues in the poem, but if you read the book (TTOTC), there are a couple…there are a couple of good hints and there are a couple of aberrations that live out on the edge.”
      Curious “edge” may mean just that. Fenn’s definition of aberration is “something different”
      In most common usages of edge, means; border, outside limit of an object away from its center, margin… If we take this literally, page numbers or lack of could be involved. If we take it metaphorically it could also imply something different or not common… a made up word is one example, or a word or even a section of words that should be in the context of what is being told. One example off the top of my head is the chapter “in love with YS” which most of that one page chapter doesn’t talk about YS actually other than loading the car and heading to YS… nothing is talked about YS in a chapter dedicated to in love with YS.

      • Seeker,

        An interesting observation. If you say YS out loud you get Wise. Any thoughts on where this leads you?

        Mike

          • Seeker,

            Sparrow knows exactly what I mean… Sparrow repeated my point two more times:

            Ys = Why’s = Wise = YS

            I think Sparrow is a couple steps ahead of us… Care to share more?

          • LOL Mike.. I’m tired from a long day… sparrow pulled one over me. Doesn’t happen often, so I applaud both of ya.

          • Mike, I’ll take a stab at YS. I warned ya Im a bit tired, so here goes nothing.

            Fenn referred to a few with the definition; scant and said, why do I sound/feel like i’m talking in circles [ close enough for the thought process ]

            Sure “why is it I must go” could refer to YS, then stanza 2 3 4 can be describing feature/places there. stanza 1 has an interesting “AS I have” while the rest of the poem used There’ll you’ve, I’m, etc.
            So why not AS I’VE in stanza 1?

            Mirror image of that is ISA [ mirrors seem to be talked about a lot in the and out]. If we use scant as fenn talking in circle as important to the word scant… I come up with the CD in that location of ISA. If you’re not sure what I mean, a map will explain…This might relate to the huge ~ CD to the small ~ scant circle, and a perspective of the two.

            How’d I do for being half awake sleeping?

          • Seeker,

            Great explanation! Thanks for the insight. I am checking out for the night.

            Best to you!

        • Nope, it was just that, an observation. A lot of stories in the book talked about Yellowstone, or the great Yellowstone area. Yet a chapter dedicated to it and the emotional feeling towards it, is only one page long and one or two sentences on that page refers ‘slightly to it?
          The one page long chapter relates more to the travel than the destination.

          I just find that odd. Is it an aberration? Well, it seems to be something different than what the chapter’s title indicates.

  37. Seeker, HMA, WMiG, and others,
    IMO, “where the edges were” (from TTOTC) is a good hint; “architect” is a good hint, and “plan” is a good hint. (Remember that “plan” has many different definitions.) Also, IMO, the “word that is key” will help searchers find clue number 4. (There, I stayed on topic.)
    I agree that it is possible to have “incorrect hints”; IMO, during the recursive search process, a searcher should eliminate an incorrect clue or an irrelevant hint at the appropriate time.
    By the way, with respect to “a poor execution”, someday I should tell the story about making a silly math error, and ending up in the wrong location.
    Geoff
    “Have flashlight, will travel”

    • Geoff Idaho –

      “IMO, the “word that is key” will help searchers find clue number 4.”

      IMO the word that is key will not only be the foundation but will assist in all subsequent clues not just clue #4.

      • I don’t know what the word that is key that fenn is referring to, but I do think the word’s uncommon usage will change the perspective of how many look at or read the poem.
        “…When you read the poem it looks like just simple words there. But I guarantee you that I worked on that…”

    • “IMO, “where the edges were” (from TTOTC) is a good hint; “architect” is a good hint, and “plan” is a good hint. (Remember that “plan” has many different definitions.) Also, IMO, the “word that is key” will help searchers find clue number 4. (There, I stayed on topic.)”

      Interesting that you would post this thought.

      As you may or may not know – IMO – WWWH is “the edge of civilization”….and now you add this to the blog. Which, and I’m not a betting man, but that is very helpful. I didn’t catch that in the book, so that could be a hint to a clue…..the clue being WWWH.

      Good thinking.

      • Another word that is key… on a map, it’s the legend.

        hmmm … leg end, ledge end, or the broader meaning of legend…. a story with a motive, a myth, etc.

        • legend= Skippy, = leg end= foot. Should have buried him standing up. Indiana jones, staff(switch), 7′ tall, light source at 5 degrees(the key?)= shadow of ? feet..
          Can’t give you everything OS2:), just playin’

          • Charlie, I didn’t even think of leg-end as a foot, I thought of it as a leg of a journey on a map… but your foot idea is tantalizing … the legend on a map is sort of foot-notes identifying the symbols on the map. Foot, feet. so many images and associations… walk, trail, ped, base, ambulate, measure off by paces, etc.

          • OS2, I think f is what 6’1″ tall, somewhere around there. His stride would be……pi. 3.14′.
            36 paces at 3.14′ = remember this number…
            Okay, take the TFTW map and overlap it onto itself. Move the top layer sideways until the 13’s merge. Looks like a backward 3 and a regular 3 with an arrow pointing up. Look up, there is your “X” on a map.
            Then, research the B A & P railroad. Check out that train depot. Research that depot on front and main st, :), now you have WWWH, nailed down…

          • Front and Locust is probably the building you mean to refer.

            Right in Jake’s neighborhood too!

            Need a WWWH Faulkner?

      • Thanks, and safe searching!
        I’m off to where “the yellow and purple flowers flourish”, to shoot some more photos, in the hopes that it will help us (self and kids) to identify one of the clues.
        Geoff
        “Have flashlight, will travel”

  38. STRAIGHT FORWARD SOLUTION TO ALL CLUES
    As I have gone alone in there, He started his hiding journey “alone in there”
    Begin it where warm waters halt CLUE #1 First location where he began his hiding journey is in a place where warm water halt down. The large hot springs that supply the public pools then flows into the river at Glenwood Springs Colorado fit this clue.
    And take it in the canyon down, CLUE #2 He began in a canyon about one mile up river. First exit on I-70 east is called No Name.
    Not far, but too far to walk He is telling us he did not walk.
    Put in below the home of Brown. CLUE #3 “Put in” is a boat in a river reference and CLUE #4 Grizzly Creek is the second exit up river, east on I-70. Grizzly bears are also known as brown bears. The place got its name from a very large grizzly that was killed there many years ago.
    There’ll be no paddle up your creek, CLUE #5 tells us what direction to go. River is very narrow and rapid upstream from this point but downstream is not as rapid and it widens out.
    Just heavy loads and water high CLUE #6 Across the river is a railroad track and trains carry heavy loads.
    If you’ve been wise and found the blaze, CLUE# 7 Downstream about ¼ mile from No Name exit and across the river there is a Railroad tunnel entrance. Just up from there is a blaze like feature, a huge notch, in the canyon wall from a very old rock slide.
    Look quickly down, your quest to cease, CLUE #8 If you’re in a boat and you look down you are looking into the water! The treasure is in the river.
    But tarry scant with marvel gaze, CLUE #9 Train tunnel entrance is black and tarry looking from diesel smoke and “marvel gaze” is a metaphor for canyon wall. Tar is small in perspective too…
    NOTE: The GPS position of this place is 39 deg. 33’ 24” N 107 deg. 18’ 30” W.
    So hear me all and listen good, CLUE #10 Hazard warning
    Your effort will be worth the cold. CLUE #11 The river water level is too high and murky in the summer. Only time to search is late fall winter and early spring when the river is low and clear.
    If you are brave and in the wood CLUE #12 “Wood” is another reference to Glenwood.
    MERRY CHRISTMAS!

    • Ken K, ~ “Begin it where warm waters halt CLUE #1 First location where he began his hiding journey is in a place where warm water halt down. The large hot springs that supply the public pools then flows into the river at Glenwood Springs Colorado fit this clue.”

      I’m not going to argue points of what you call a clue, how many clue, or their order. I just have one inquiry and a double question …
      Out of all the large hot springs that could start the journey…
      Q ~Why there, this one particular place? And why a hot spring over any other heated waters?
      Inquiry ~ “He” I assume is fenn, is fenn having to follow this same route of this theory for him to actually hide the chest ..or.. was the “he began his hiding journey…” just an overall view of fenn ‘telling’ us the poem.

      • My first perception of clue 1 was a hot spring. I searched via google earth forty plus or minus hot springs before I found one that lead to clue 2 then 3, and so on. This is how Fenn suggested we pursue it. Glenwood Springs fits all the clues IMO. The point of sharing this is the same reason you share a cookie or a dollar in the Salvation Army bucket. We share because it feels good to do so. I can not hunt any more and I think the longer it takes to find it the more time nature has to conceal it. I also believe money needs to circulate for the common good. Of course my solve is IN MY OPINION. I also would like to know if I am correct and want to hear why I am, or am not.

    • Ken K,
      Curious how long ago did you contract the Chase bug? We’re all aware there’s only one real cure for this malady, here’s to hoping your ‘adventure’ will provide some temporary relief.

    • Ken K …

      I vaguely recall some other poster coming up with that same or similar location near Glenwood Springs; maybe it was you.

      In addition to agreeing with seeker’s comments, (after all, there must be billions and billions of hot springs in the Rocky Mountains), your solution sounds a bit too conventional to me. If the clues were that obvious, I believe the treasure would have already been found.

      But, nevertheless, you could be right. Good luck to you.

      Ken (in Texas)

    • I have seen Glenwood talked about many times over the years. Is it the correct area to search ? Nobody but Fenn can even come close to answering that….
      At any rate, thanks for posting another take on how Glenwood gets your juices flowing. You shared in a nice way that did not put yourself above others. This Chase has a lot of people exerting mass amounts of time and brain power trying to solve the “C(h)ase of a lifetime”.
      The winter months often become wound up in a web of strangling comments where some folks find it necessary to jam their “one of a kind”, “sure thing” solves down other readers throats. In the earlier days this was easier to take because there were a never ending supply of scrapbooks, contests, comments from Forrest to keep things more palatable. I come to Dal’s blog to interact in a very general manner, and to keep abreast of any news from Fenn. I always read the threads and sometimes feel compelled to throw a comment or two out there just to agree or disagree in a thought. I back away from direct assault or trying to impose my will on others…what’s the point? It’s all just words at this stage of the game. Key word(s) being shared ? I think not…To all you forceful ones, you are wasting good energy…and the insecurity is eating you alive. PEACE.

  39. I hintk maybe the key is to add up all the parts of the poem = p add le up
    Utter waiste of time X worrying about further lines if you doint have a basis to point to the treasure. MY OPINION

    • I will give 10 points for that answer.

      P add le up is new to me. That’s brilliant!
      Like the New Mexico guy that found that awesome Blaze last month near Cruces Creek! Credit where credit is due.

      • That’s “no” p add “le” up. = 4. That line is in reference to the latitude. IMCO…

  40. zaphod73491,

    IMO…
    I read somewhere up above that you said, the first clue is secreted in the poem? I found all 9 clues secreted there. Ok, I just had to get that jab in 😉
    But seriously, if you think the first clue is something physically located in the poem, then you should probably let it all go, and start over. I say this, because you seem like a reasonably smart and calm minded person. And I can speak from experience, that blindly believing in your spot will only keep you from figuring out the poem. Also, I just happen to know exactly where the chest is (to within 12 feet or so), and the first clue is not found where you say it is.

    Tell ya what, I’ll even alleviate the boards from all of this back and forth “I know where it is”, “No you don’t”, “Yes I do, but I cant say important things” rhetoric, by simply vetting your solution with two simple questions that will not give anything away except to a person who knows where the chest lies. If you do not know the answers to these two questions, then you don’t know where the chest is located:

    1. What does this phrase by Forrest really mean, “The little girl in India cannot get closer than the first two clues.” ?
    2. What does this line in the poem mean… “Just take the chest, and go in peace.” ?

    If you think those two answers would give away too much (which they don’t), then you can email me at ironwilly@gmail.com .

    That or…. we can all just listen to the same broken record spinning around all Winter. Wouldn’t you like to spend that time working on a real solve?

    Will

    • Will…really ? You know exactly where the treasure is (within 12′ or so) , again ? That is truly amazing….again.
      I think your Holiday album has a scratch in it….Stay strong Will and enjoy the season….

    • IW ~ “Also, I just happen to know exactly where the chest is (to within 12 feet or so), and the first clue is not found where you say it is.”

      I don’t care if you start your post with “IMO” or not… This isn’t the Wizard of OZ and you can’t hide behind the curtain of imo. This is a posting that is either place to antagonize or deliberately attempting to mislead others for whatever warp reason, and begs the response of Proof.

      12′ feet? but doesn’t have the trove?.. or can’t go because of lack of funds? It’s too cold? I can’t find a baby sitter? Broke a fingernail? Then, to rub the intentional salt in… you challenge folks with… if you can’t answer these two question you think are gold, then shove this in for special affect? “we can all just listen to the same broken record spinning around all Winter.”

      I’m hearing a record with all kinda scratches, and cracks and missing pieces… Geeesuzzz ~ first the 500′ club members, then the 200′ and now 12 footer club… lol and yet no chest??

        • No need for the fluffinutter sarcasm. You claimed to “know exactly where the chest is (to within 12 feet or so)”

          I’m calling you out…
          I’m all for discussion on any thoughts involving the clues ~ poem ~ book ~ etc.
          So what was your reasoning to post ‘you know exactly where the chest is…’ if not to antagonize? That is not attempting to be helpful, to discuss possibilities, add Ideas or even idol chit chat.
          Seriously, What was your intent?

          • IW ~ “Tell ya what, I’ll even alleviate the boards from all of this back and forth “I know where it is”, “No you don’t”, “Yes I do, but I cant say important things”

            I wish something was alleviated.

      • Seeker –

        I believe Darth Vader does want you to have a wonderful Christmas.

        I also believe if Forrest Fenn said have a wonderful Christmas many would be dissecting it like Isn’t Yellowstone a place full of wonder -wonderful- and didn’t John Meek spend a Christmas at Ranger Brown’s station. Wouldn’t it be Wise to look in the wood there?

        • Lug
          Delusion begets delusion….(crackled voice)
          Most would be smothering with sweet nothings just in case he is speaking to them secretly through his communications….

        • Lugnutz,
          It really doesn’t matter to me who believe what in all honesty.
          IW’s He “knows” within 12′ where the chest is, is an outlandish remark and others have been booted for less. Especially when part of his post was about others who do just that.
          His Christmas wishes was nothing more than avoidance to that fact, when I called him out.

          His post was hypocritical at best, and I asked for his intent of the post, claiming he “knows” while discrediting other for doing exactly the same.

          Merry Christmas? Nope, that falls under Fluffinutter definition; 2 and 3

          • Not at all,
            My post part; ‘It really doesn’t matter to me who believe what in all honesty.’
            Refers to the poem and clues only. That is the only reason I read and post… So no dig of any kind intended.

            I’ll let ya know if and when that happens…lol

    • Will,

      I, for one, would feel seriously challenged by anyone knowing the correct answers to those two questions. Although, as you say, the answers themselves won’t give away much, they indicate a thought process that could very well lead to success.

      As for the 12′ knowledge, while I don’t dispute the possibility, from experience I know that it’s easy to get too confident about that unless you’re absolutely certain you’ve exhausted all the twists and turns in the poem. On a number of occasions I’ve thought that I had reached the final clue, only to find that there was yet another leg to the journey.

      Fortunately, for me, there has been physical confirmation that I have reached a key location (although I fully understand others will doubt that, and consider me somewhat crazy!). All I can say is that, from my standpoint, the end is not as simple as it might seem… unless you understand the way the final clues are mapped out in the poem.

    • I can see there will be a sequel to “The Trouble With Confidence…”

      Really cute taking measurements from F’ dog. LOL…

      • Jake, you get a great view of the pole star from the poop deck! 😉

        You know, I really don’t think there’s a problem with Will’s confidence if he’s truly mastered riding the backward bike. But as with all such arts, there are many levels of competence.

        • One thing that would make me more confident in Will’s confidence is whether he’s managed to make use of nearly all the words in the poem – large and small.

        • Ah, The king of poop, I mean the king of pop.
          Are you going to hop over the pond to play in the big litter box again this summer?

          • I really hope to, Jake, but it all depends on money and how my wife feels about the value of the “investment.” After all, I’ve been on a couple of trips since we left the States, and although they’ve yielded fruit, the big banana is still hanging resolutely to the tree! Someone was going to search for me, but it didn’t pan out, hence the current dilemma. It’s a tough discussion, but she’s coming round to my way of thinking – slowly.

            I’ve learned my lesson, though, you have to allow for both searching AND thinking time. But right now, everything seems to be aligned in terms of clues and geography. No loose ends – I hope!

          • If you do come back, I suggest you have plan B, check out some of the nicer areas in the Rocky’s & maybe do something your wife would like to do if she is coming along. It’s way too far from home & expensive just to search for his treasure where it may not be.

          • Good points, Jake.

            I won’t have a search “plan B,” but if my wife comes we’ll take the time to visit friends and relatives. Fortunately, my spot is actually in a beautiful part of the Rockies (although it might not look like it from the photos/videos).

          • Jake –

            Is Vox the guy that rented the wet suit to wade into a bog after seeing poop on a tire?

            Is he saying he didn’t go far enough and is wife believes him?

            Or am I thinking of someone different?
            and where was that spot? Close to which airport?

            you seem to recall all this pretty well.

            Lugnutz!

          • Lugnutz, I also recall this pretty well, since I was there!

            No, I rented the wet suit on a different occasion.

            I am saying that I have an area to search, and my wife is considering the proposition.

            I will not reveal the spot or the airport.

          • The poop is well protected.
            Lug, you would be able to find out where the president is before knowing the poop trail.

            This is top secret information & will not be leaked out by the Vox.

          • Jake and Vox –

            By my count we have 4 people in the last 3 days that absolutely certain where the treasure is.

            Although in his most recent comment to me Zap is now saying he is not certain. I don’t want to speak for him.

            Anyways I am wondering where Vox is certain the TC is because It think there are 4 completely different locations that are absolutely it!

            Of the people that now claim Knowlege of the location I certainly hope it’s Vox that is correct. Hope in one hand poop in the other…

          • Lugnutz, I no longer claim certainty before checking a spot – there’s no way of knowing with certainty, IMO. I do, however, have a high degree of confidence. Having found two physical markers that were discovered at spots that the poem directs the searcher to, and knowing how they tie into the narrative of the poem, I can be reasonably sure that I’m on the right track. Since my last search, I have also unraveled what I sincerely hope is the final layer in the poem.

            My spot is where riches old and new come together, where the I and the You meet, and where I can go in peace.

    • 1. What does this phrase by Forrest really mean, “The little girl in India cannot get closer than the first two clues.” ?

      answer: the little girl in India needs a ‘better’ or, I should say, ‘different’ map

      2. What does this line in the poem mean… “Just take the chest, and go in peace.” ?

      answer: “obtain, as through measurement or a specified procedure”

      • Rich, could it be that the little girl in India cannot get closer than the first two clues because that is where the treasure is? And I don’t mean it’s at the beginning of the journey…

        Also, if I am correct, FF’s answer yields a second, very valuable nugget.

        • I believe when he refers to ‘closer’ he’s referring to the girl working out clues. He’s answering the question.

          I also believe that when he says…

          “There are many disabled people who are deeply into maps and geography, and they are having a lot of fun”

          …he is implying that you also need BOTG in order to find the location of the treasure.

          • Rich, you could well be right.

            For me, though, I find interesting pointers and confirmations in some of FF’s statements. For example, the latest MW Weekly Words was one such candidate. It was so useful that I emailed F to thank him for the confirmation.

          • Hi Rich

            This is a subject that has bugged me also, so thanks for bringing it up.

            Although Jenny’s question was purely hypothetical, I suspect Forrests answer contains honesty. and if I’m right in that assumption, there seems two possible solutions as to why that LGFI can’t proceed beyond clue #2

            1) She doesn’t possess the correct map: I find this hard to swallow given that USGS maps are easily accessible (and contain fantastic detail) online, with the possible exception of needing a specific local map, that is unavailable online.

            2) BOTG are necessary in solving clue #3: This seems highly likely (in my vastly uncertain guess-ology) given that it eliminates the conflicting ideology of Forrest inventing this whole scenario for the sole purpose of getting people off their behinds and adventurising into nature.
            Add to this the comment about disabled peoples having fun with maps and geography, which tends to suggest that they are limited in a similar capacity to that of the Little Girl From India, perhaps

            so, the $64000 dollar question remains;
            which one is the third clue?

          • Ernie: “Hey Bert! It’s the one just after the second clue! … Kehehehehehehehehehe”

            😛

          • Iron ‘Ernie McFee’ Willy

            yes, I have counted all three fingers on my furry hand and can confirm that you are, indeed, correct.

            meep meep
            🙂

          • Mr. Hobbit: I’ve opined on this Jenny question before, but it was long enough ago that you might have missed it. My belief is that your choice #1 regarding TLGFI is the correct one:

            “1) She doesn’t possess the correct map: I find this hard to swallow given that USGS maps are easily accessible (and contain fantastic detail) online, with the possible exception of needing a specific local map, that is unavailable online.”

            Go back and read Jenny’s specific question. She didn’t give free reign to the choice of Little India’s map — she was specific: a map of the U.S. Rockies. Forrest answered truthfully because the detail of such a map is pretty much crap. Nobody can get closer than the first 2 clues with that map, whether you live in India or on a planet orbiting Betelgeuse. It would be like trying to navigate to your favorite restaurant with a paper map of all of New Zealand.

            “So, the $64000 dollar question remains; which one is the third clue?”

            I’ve posted my answer (admittedly cryptic) on this question here several times, yet skeptics keep claiming I never share any “information”: my third clue is in the line “Not far, but too far to walk.” I don’t believe It has nothing to do with interpretations of some specific distance implied by this line. I think people blow past the clues after solving the first two because they force-fit a specific distance into their “decryption” of this line.

          • Correction: “anything to do” not “nothing to do” — changed part of my thought without correcting the remainder… Sorry for the confusion!

          • Zap ‘the two-brained’ hod

            “the detail of such a map is pretty much crap, Nobody can get closer than the first 2 clues with that map” – which map are you referring to exactly?

            unless I’m wrong, Jenny simply suggests “a map of the U.S Rockies” which could include any map, old or new (including an ArcGIS digital online map, or paper-physical version of any USGS topographical data) covering any scale aspect of the Rocky mountains. The detailed accuracy of this ‘hypothetical map’ was never stated, therefore should never be assumed.

            And, in my experience of land-surveying, I can find a tiny iron-spike survey mark in the back of the rural boon-docks, using a sparse survey plan that was created more than a century ago – so “a crap map” is entirely relative to the information that is sought (i.e you couldn’t find a McDonalds on these maps, that’s for certain)
            🙂

            btw, did you discover the first two clues solely based on the poem, without a map? – that would be undeniably impressive

          • My Dear Hobbit,

            “unless I’m wrong, Jenny simply suggests “a map of the U.S Rockies” which could include any map, old or new (including an ArcGIS digital online map, or paper-physical version of any USGS topographical data) covering any scale aspect of the Rocky mountains. The detailed accuracy of this ‘hypothetical map’ was never stated, therefore should never be assumed.”

            Ah, but by the lack of specificity by Jenny, Forrest could quite reasonably assume she meant a paper map, in which case a map that spans the entire U.S. Rocky Mountains is going to have obvious resolution limits — at least for ~reasonable~ physical map dimensions. So Forrest could “tell the truth, just not the whole truth” if given that loophole. Without any logic trickery in mind, I read Jenny’s question and immediately imagined a big 4’x6′ map covering pretty much the entire western U.S. as TLGFI’s ~provided~ source material. I don’t think that’s an unreasonable interpretation of her question. But that’s just my take … what do you think?

          • My Favourite Fictional Alien

            I think “lack of specificity” is the key phrase here – it could easily go either way, right?

            unfortunately (for me maybe), assumption is too evidently brave for this wee curious hobbit.
            🙂

          • Inquisitive Hobbit: it’s for this reason that I pretty much dismiss the TLGFI question-and-answer session with Forrest. Too many loopholes. Too easy for Forrest to be truthful without telling the whole truth. Jenny needs to hire a prosecuting attorney to supply her with wiggle-free questions for Forrest. (grin)

          • HGTTG Cast Member

            I don’t dismiss anything potentially relevant ..probably

            btw, what’s a “prosecuting attorney”?
            – sound a bit serious.
            (mirrored-grin)
            🙂

          • Zap~ “Jenny simply suggests “a map of the U.S Rockies” …
            We also have the Q&A with only the poem and nothing else.
            lol, That sent the botg crew to throw a ticker parade… and imo right so. Not that the entire book is required… but if I just hand you a map of the US Rockies and the poem and said ‘ready set go’ OR just simple the poem with no explanation and said “have at it” You would likely look at me cross-eyed and confused, right?…
            We need something to go on…”So I wrote a poem containing 9 clues that if followed precisely, lead to the end of my rainbow and the treasure”
            Forget the book [ other than that sentence ] forget the after the facts… With that sentence and the information it says and accompany with the poem, do you have an idea of what is ahead of you?
            IMO, We tend to overlook what we only knew of from the start and take for granted that information [ sentence ] is needed.
            These seems to be the flaws in the Q&A’s… fenn is simply answering the questions as presented, and not to what he thinks we should know.

            Just for fun, could you find a couple of hints and a couple of aberrations in that sentence?

          • Good day, Seeker. O.K., so as an historical experiment you’d like to strip out all the extra information that Forrest has provided over the years (the shaded map in TFTW, the four states, the altitude ranges, etc.) and pretend TTOTC is all we’ve got. Rewind to day 1 as it were. So we’ve got the poem, we know it’s “in the mountains somewhere north of Santa Fe” and we’ve got the sentence right before the poem: “So I wrote a poem containing nine clues that if followed precisely, will lead to the end of my rainbow and the treasure:”

            Your question: “Do you have an idea of what is ahead of you?”

            Sure: I’ve got to decipher the poem. The treasure is most likely somewhere in the mountains of the western U.S., with Canada still a remote possibility. But don’t forget I do have one more morsel of information: “There are also subtle clues sprinkled in the stories.” So some possibilities for “where warm waters halt” may be more promising than others based on whether or not you can find a hint for it in the book.

            “Just for fun, could you find a couple of hints and a couple of aberrations in that sentence?”

            Well, I can come up with two hints, and perhaps one aberration:

            1. There are 9 clues
            2. The clues must be followed “precisely” — this implies specificity instead of vagueness

            Aberration: “end of my rainbow”: simplest explanation for this is the association of pots of gold with rainbows. But if I want to get creative (and JDA will like this), what’s at the end of “my” and “rainbow”? A Y and a W. WY –> Wyoming? Or maybe something even more specific: W.Y.: West Yellowstone? And people claim I never share anything…

    • Will, thank you ever so much for the comic relief. Your innate ability to entertain certainly has no limits!!

      “The difference between stupidity and genius is that genius has its limits.”…….. Albert Einstein

      Merry Christmas to You, IW 🙂

        • I find it interesting, Seeker, that “Fluffinutter”
          seems to be your favored word for anyone that bestows a kind word to another.

          “Fluffernutter” refers to a sandwich made with peanut butter and marshmallow fluff usually served on white bread.

          As usual, similar, but not the same thing.

          Just an observation seeker, not a criticism. Will you now accuse me of Flutterinnutting because I didn’t come across unkindly? JDA

          • Being that you never understand anything I say, except that you just simply think it’s meant to annoy you, for whatever reason you think that is…

            Seeker’s fluffinutter definition;
            1; Over use / forcing of sweetening, when a spoonful of sugar is satisfying / pleasurable…
            2; Over indulging for self credit purpose.
            3; Use as sarcasm to bestow with the opposite intent of sweetness.
            4; When attempting to be insulting but doesn’t want to man up to it.

            Just so I’m not misunderstood.

        • LOL!! Seeker, I knew YOU would appreciate it!

          (although it never ceases to amaze me that other people can’t figure out what that whooshing noise is! 🙂 )

    • Hi IronWill:

      “I read somewhere up above that you said, the first clue is secreted in the poem? I found all 9 clues secreted there. Ok, I just had to get that jab in ”

      Touche! Yes, out of context, saying the first clue is secreted in the poem is kind of a “well, duh!” statement. I kinda walked into that one. But in my defense I was countering I think Seeker’s suggestion a while back that if my “word that is key” wasn’t one of the poem words, then did I find it in the book? (It is hinted at in the book, too, but I wanted to be clear that the poem was the source of the word.)

      “But seriously, if you think the first clue is something physically located in the poem, then you should probably let it all go, and start over.”

      That would be an unusual plan of attack after believing you’ve solved the first clue!

      “I say this, because you seem like a reasonably smart and calm minded person. And I can speak from experience, that blindly believing in your spot will only keep you from figuring out the poem.”

      Well, thank you for that, but I’m pretty confident I’ve got the poem figured out.

      “Also, I just happen to know exactly where the chest is (to within 12 feet or so), and the first clue is not found where you say it is.”

      I won’t be so bold as to say I know the chest’s location to within 12 feet. Rather, I’m confident enough in the methodology of the clues that they have put me close enough to find it. Could be 100 feet, could be 20 … no way to know unless it’s found.

      As for your two-question vetting of my solution, I think it would be more accurate to say that your questions are designed to confirm that my solution differs from yours. You’ve said that you don’t agree with where I say the first clue is to be found, so we already know our solutions are at odds with each other without exploring vetting questions.

      • While that is true about our differing first clues Zaphod, I was just curious as to how you would answer them… even if they aren’t necessary.

        I’ve found, through life, that there are two main protagonists standing on either side of the path you’re walking down…
        One is the “Granny”. She will be there to encourage you, serve you hot pastries to make you feel all warm inside when you’re down. She may not have the best and up to date knowledge, because of being old-fashioned, but she’ll always do her best to make you feel better.
        The other is the “Biddie”. She just wants to steal the show, much like a comedian, and point fingers at you around her small audience, in order to get laughs for attention. She’ll tell you how wrong you are, and try to stomp on your feelings in order to keep you from continuing down the right path.

        Just remember… when it comes to the reality of this world, your success does not require their approval… for it to exist.

        Just think though, now you have all Winter to fix clue no. 1 😛

    • Will – you are doing the same thing, so frankly, your argument is invalid. You “KNOW” the chest is in a 12 foot area, yet you have blasted Zap for claiming to have solved a clue in the poem (a written document) without proof. Put your money where your mouth is and follow your own advice – what proof do you feel like sharing? What makes your solve “real”?

      You cannot use the same argument that you are arguing against.

      I am a “new” searcher (6 months in), and I don’t post much for two reasons: One being that I would only offer suggestions if I felt like they were closer to fact than a WAG, and two, because I see people constantly getting flamed for their suggestions by people such as Jake, Lug, Iron, and more. I am disheartened to see that people cannot disagree in a way that is civil.

      This forum is supposed to be a safe place to come and bounce ideas, have other people help flesh them out or perhaps at times have them “vetted”, or give new searchers a chance to get their feet wet and understand how many different ways you can approach this great puzzle.

      Instead, it has become a place where encouragement is limited and the spirit of the chase is disappearing. If someone claims to have solved clues or the poem, why shoot them down? That shows nothing but insecurity and breeds a culture of exclusivity, not inclusiveness. If you disagree, simply say you appreciate their words but you prefer a different solution.

      Honestly, I encourage everyone to take a step back and look at the posts from someone like me – would you want to ever take a stab at posting a solve when the response looks like this?

      – Imajin out.

  41. Someone was telling me there are two typos in the poem. One is:

    The answer(s) I already know.

    The second one I hadn’t heard of before:

    “And leave my trove for Al to seek”.

    Who’s Al?

    • Hmmmm Sparrow…….. I know an Al (at least that’s what I call him sometimes). In fact I was just talking to him. I wish he wanted to seak the trove. It would be awesome if he did! But he has other things on the brain. ; )

    • Sparrow

      I think it’s quite obvious that Forrest intended to leave the trove for Al Delvecchio (from Arnolds Drive-In)

      ..yeeaap, yep, yep, yep
      🙂

    • Sparrow, In previous posts about the -motive- that ff may have for secreting the chest, I tried to share that I believe his motive contains more than one -reason- and that would make “answerS” accurate and remove it from the typo list.

      How do you feel about my humble opinion Oz10, Seeker, SL, Jake, OS2, Dal, JDA, Goofy and some of you other opinionated chasers?

      • Saw your previous post & didn’t give it much thought about motive(s).
        What’s done is done & I don’t think there are any other motives besides the one he stated.

        If there is another motive then I would assume it would be big news considering why he would keep it a secret.

        Keep up the detective work & maybe you will find a nugget or few.

        I like to focus on things he stated more than things he didn’t. Like when he said the one one who finds it will have walked to it (paraphrasing).

        Why would you have to walk to it?
        Why not take a horse?

    • Sparrow, I have looked in every version of the poem that I can find and do not see the “Al” anywhere. What am I missing?

      Again, IMHO the motive for creating The Chase and the reasonS behind the motive would require “all” to have an equal chance of finding the chest.

      So where is “Al?”

  42. Zap –

    Here is the quick history.
    Every year in November or December searchers tell us all about how they will find the treasure. No one has found it. Often those people disappear and we never here about the methodology or what the first clue is or where they searched. Then the next searcher goes to the same place.

    This happens all the time because many people solve the same way and never share the info. Why come here to this blog and then not share the info. You can just not be on the blog and go get IT.

    You are being braggadocios whether you recognize it or not. I don’t want to here your keyword. I don’t believe in the existence of such a thing. What would you do if Fenn Came on here and said There is no keyword you have a fundamental misunderstanding of what I said and meant? Stick to your solve? Start from scratch? Option one means you ignore Fenn and option two means that you are wrong now on this blog. Further if two is even possible to you than you should not be speaking to us with the confidence that you are.

    You say your solution is fundamentally different from anyone else’s. As Jake said you should really do something to gain our confidence on that point or keep it to yourself IMO. You followed that by saying if you divulged your first clue it would give everyone significant insight into your technique which you believe to be correct. Well how about this? It might give us significant insight into how far off you are.

    You speak in absolutes without knowlege.

    I certainly want you on this board and commenting. I really want to hear how your trip goes.

    • “This happens all the time because many people solve the same way and never share the info. Why come here to this blog and then not share the info. You can just not be on the blog and go get IT.”

      Hi Lugnutz.

      I’ll have to disagree with you here.

      I don’t share some details, because I don’t want you to know where I am looking. It is that simple. I did the work for the area I am searching, myself. Why would I give you the information until I am 100% sure it is not there?

      You see, something you are missing is….when a seeker finds a location they wish to put botg in, but doesn’t get to look at all the spots they had targeted, well, they will probably go back to that location and do a second or third or fourth, etc searches, until they are content that the chest is not present in that area.

      Only then…I repeat….Only then will I reveal where I looked specifically.

      This is just part of the game……”two people can keep a secret, if one is dead.”

      You don’t want to die so soon, right?

      :o)

      Good luck L…..happy hunting!

      • Rocks –

        I don’t care if I am right or wrong. I care that the treasure is found and I openly discuss with searchers to the good of all. I have literally published my TCs on this blog.

        Here on the Nine Clues thread the purpose is to share ideas about the nine clues. If you don’t want to share your clues why would you comment here.

        Maybe we should start a new thread called searchers that don’t want to discuss clues.

        • How about a new post page called “I got it all figured out”.

          Something tells me, it would be real ugly.

        • Lugnutz, it’s a valid point. One of the reasons I rarely come here now is because I can offer little without revealing what I don’t wish to reveal. However, when I do post, I try to offer something. For example, even though I bleated about it fairly regularly, practically no one was considering the possibility of discoverable coordinates in the poem, but I’m beginning to see some discussion on that now.

          On the other side of the coin, people who do offer ideas often get treated dismissively, or worse. That’s a shame.

    • Hi Lugnutz,

      It’s not just November and December — it’s all year long. Perhaps it seems like there are more posts about solutions in the winter months because no one is reporting about their failed searches then.
      Yes, some people boast of having it all figured out, go off on their searches, and we never hear from them again. So I get that you can feel a bit “robbed” if you invested any time in trying to uncover their methodology or search location only to receive no closure when these folks apparently throw in the towel, get attacked by bears, or simply slink away in embarrassment.

      You question why people participate in this blog at all if they won’t divulge their full solution at some point, or at least their fundamental methodology. But I would say a great many searchers have done exactly that — Dal’s blog pages are full of failed attempts, some of them quite detailed. In the cases of those who haven’t, it’s mostly people that are still looking in their favorite spot(s). They haven’t exhausted all their possibilities (and perhaps some never will) so it’s understandable that they keep their cards close to the vest.

      Moving on, you asked a somewhat odd rhetorical question: “What would you do if Fenn Came on here and said There is no keyword you have a fundamental misunderstanding of what I said and meant?” I assume you have no disagreement with the fact that Forrest wrote “Many are giving serious thought to the clues in my poem, but only a few are in tight focus with a word that is key.” I cannot be 100% sure what he’s referring to since I’m not a mind-reader. I have simply made an educated guess that he’s talking about the first clue, since in my case that clue is a distinctive, unambiguous word. Based on what I’ve read here, I think many people have interpreted this to mean that one of the words in the poem is critical, whether it’s “wood”, “alone”, “treasures”, “Brown”, “blaze” or what have you. Others don’t think it’s a word in the poem at all. I don’t subscribe to the idea of a “keyword” in the sense of some cryptex that unlocks the rest of the poem. It’s just a word that serves to focus your search on a much smaller geographic area than the full shaded area of the map.

      “You say your solution is fundamentally different from anyone else’s.” Not absolutely anyone; just any of the hundred-odd (?) solutions that have been posted here over the last 6 years. I obviously can’t speak for solutions of which I have no knowledge. There could be dozens of lurkers on Dal’s site that have the same first two clues that I do, perhaps even for the same reasons.

      Simply telling you the answer to my first clue would be a bit like telling you who Luke Skywalker’s father is prior to your seeing any of the Star Wars movies. But like Luke, once it’s learned and you “search your feelings” (and the book) you will perhaps begrudgingly accept that it’s almost certainly true.

      But don’t worry about me disappearing and leaving you hanging next year. I will report back, just as I did after my last search.

      • Hey Zap,
        Point me in the direction of your report from this year.

        “But don’t worry about me disappearing and leaving you hanging next year. I will report back, just as I did after my last search.”
        I may have missed it seeing I was out searching as well.
        Thanks

    • Lugnutz – I’ve been watching these laborious debates from the sidelines for awhile now. I have to say I’m more with you than against you on this one. While I agree with zoso that most searchers don’t want to share their solutions until they’ve fully checked their search area, I often wonder why they bother to post at all. It often turns out to be an unproductive discussion, with the poster teasing us all with his/her carefully protected secrets.

      I respect that a searcher doesn’t want to share or, for all intents and purposes, discuss their solutions. But then why bring it up? For instance, I think the things zaphod is suggesting about the postmarks could be pretty interesting. But if he’s got it all figured out, what’s the point in posting about it? He doesn’t appear to be seeking feedback – I doubt anyone’s going to move him off of his theories – and he certainly doesn’t want to help someone else figure out his solution before he can search the place. So what’s the point?

      In general, if the post doesn’t spur an exchange of ideas that helps someone (poster included) solve the riddle, then to me it feels more like a stick in the eye than a helping hand. Perhaps it is just human nature to want to share and I should be more sympathetic.

      • Wow, Seeker… 5 years of laborious debates and now you’re on the sidelines? When the heck did that happen, and why didn’t I notice? This is a termite hill where little legs never stop beating a tattoo on mud walls just to say “I’m here” …. it’s in the timpani section of the music of the spheres.

        Has anyone else read LIVES OF A CELL by Lewis Thomas?

        boom-chicka-boom-chicka-boom-chicha-boom

        • OS2,
          Did you mistaken Spoon for Seeker?
          I can’t afford sideline seating, I’m up in the nosebleed seats.

          • Yes I did Seeker. So sorry…. & so glad you caught my error. Sometimes the type size in this bittyscreen is a real challenge for my old eyes. I couldn’t imagines you on the sidelines. Or in the nosebleed section…. more likely in the camera booth operating the replay screens.

          • LoL, are you saying I’m in ” tight focus ”

            The heck with the trove, bring on the cheerleaders…

          • Well, yes, if ‘tight focus’ means that everytime anyone plays a quote wrong, you replay the right one for us.

      • Spoon –

        It’s just braggadocio. I wouldn’t cae it all if someone was doing all this in Searching in Wy and Mon but Nine Clues is our place to share. For those of us who want to share. Someone just said I hope my ideas help someone or in would be glad if my ideas helped.

        Man that’s the attitude!

  43. If someone should benefit from anything I’ve shared; more power to ’em!
    I enjoy learning more with each passing day.
    One way or the other, I remain……

    Thrilled,
    SL

  44. I have been thinking of classifying each possible book hint to the poem clue it may relate too. Any one done anything like that?

    • Mr. Anagram Man :P,

      I can tell you how I think my theory on solving the poem went, or as Seeker appreciates..IMO….

      —There are, at least, answers to four of the nine clues found in TTOTC. (could be more, but that would be subjective)
      —There are also at least three hinted aberrations in TTOTC related to the location of the chest.
      —There are at least two HUGE hints in posts/scrapbooks on HOD… if one is wise enough to figure them out. One of them is a step by step confirmation of your solution.

      I’m not sure if that’s what you meant, but that’s my theory anyway. Oh yeah IMO 😉

      • Iron Will: “(could be more, but that would be subjective)”

        Everything you wrote is subjective.

          • Thanks for the wishes Will,
            I am not a religious person & really does not mean anything for me.

            Seeing it is 10 days before your holiday, why would you wish something seeing you will be here for another 10 days & repeating it over & over today as an answer to the questions by others?

          • Good to know Jake…. however, I’ll need to amend my X-mas list…one sec….

            Wolf and Lobo: … Two portions each, BBQ buttered crow served with Assparagus

            Seeker: … Set of children instructive wooden Alphabet Building Blocks modified to only contain I’s, M’s, and O’s.

            Jake: … Special amended copy of “He Chose the Nails” by Max Lucado, with a Jake Faulker backside quote, “… and I drove them in!”

            I almost forgot… Happy New Year as well.

          • Iron Will – Sorry to interrupt you while make out your Christmas list, but I do have a question.

            What state are you searching? I remember reading your story about West Yellowstone search and wondered if you are still in the area or if the clues have led you to another state.

        • Hey Hear me all,

          Unfortunately I had to give up on my West Yellowstone solution that you read. I wanted it to be the spot. I was fixated so hard believing it just had to be there. It was not until I saw this Sunday quote on Mysterious Writings that I chose to change…

          “The first step towards getting somewhere is to decide that you are not going to stay where you are.” – J.P. Morgan

          With any luck in the chase of time, by June, I will be the owner of a Ranch, and on my way to phase II. IT’S just Not in My best interest to publicly tell what state though. I hope you can understand. Happy Holidays 🙂

          • Iron Will – I hear or read you loud and clear. I’m hopeful that 2017 will be a year of many wonderful things.

          • I so enjoyed watching the Gomer Pyle show, that was entertainment!! But….that is a tangent.

            Iron, didn’t you recently post that you would be dusting off your cowboy hat next April to go search a ranch near Sante Fe??? Hmmm…I wonder if I can locate that post.

            ????You trade your old hat for new one, did you??? You wore the old one with such aplomb!!

            http://dalneitzel.com/2015/01/23/scrapbook-one-hundred-twenty-six-point-two/

            well, Merry Christmas to you Iron Will and I look forward to your present!! 🙂

          • IW – A state is B I G. What harm to say, I am searching in Wyoming, or MT, or CO, or NM? 26 people that I know of are searching with me in Wyoming. So What? “Ain’t no big deal.” I am secretive about my actual location but who cares if 100,000 people know I am searching in Wyoming, and NOT in YNP.

            As far as I can tell, you will say or do almost anything to keep the spotlight on yourself. You know what? That spotlight shrinks you every minute you try to stay in it.
            In my eyes, you are getting smaller and smaller with every stupid post that you put up.

            I post a fair amount, but I do not think that I am perceived as stupid, and getting smaller with each post. I would like to think that I have grown in stature over the past year. I too have solved the puzzle, and am waiting till spring, but I am not sitting on the fence crowing,” look at me, look at me, I am SOOOO great”. Just the mutterings of an old coot. JDA

          • Ah yes!! I must have missed a few (or a lot 🙂 ) of your posts, Iron Wll? I remembered the cowboy hat, but I found a couple more that reference your Ranch.

            http://mysteriouswritings.com/weekly-words-from-forrest-fenn-for-november-11th-2016/#comment-148956

            http://mysteriouswritings.com/weekly-words-from-forrest-fenn-for-november-11th-2016/#comment-149325

            http://mysteriouswritings.com/weekly-words-from-forrest-fenn-for-december-2nd-2016/#comment-150500

            Maybe you can pass time, until April, by learning to play chess? I understand the pawn is the easiest to learn to play.

            Good Luck & Merry Christmas guy

          • Fe-Will: so for my benefit, has your search state changed since we exchanged email messages in early November? I won’t say anything about what you shared privately — just curious if there has been a shift in focus in the last 6 weeks.

          • Yes Zap, the state of my search has changed from the past. As Lobo has so unknowingly revealed, I’m looking at a Ranch near Santa Fe now. But there is going to come a time when he’ll realize who the pawn really was…I think 😉

            and you have a great holiday too Loco Peòn 🙂

    • I was thinking about it, after my recent detailed search for TTOTC hints, but I realized that IMO the hints “are going to help you with clues”, and not necessarily with one particular clue, so I just left the list of hints in order by page.
      Geoff
      “Have flashlight, will travel”

  45. “I know exactly where the treasure is, but I promise not to tell a soul”.— Frances Bavier

      • Jdiggins—

        Aunt Bee visited me in a dream (Billy Barty was not feeling well so Bee stepped in) and informed me that she knew where the treasure was. She would not share where though unfortunately. She is a very friendly ghost.

  46. Dal/goofy … Help!

    Many of the comments from December 15th (upthread) are from vociferous, long-time posters who delight in barking and growling at each other. I asked a serious, reasonable question about the poem way upthread; one person responded but I almost didn’t find his response, because the thread has since been hijacked by these self-assured, long-time posters who, apparently, consider themselves top dogs of this forum.

    Enough with posters who try to … dominate discussion.

    Ken (in Texas)

    • Ken my brother…Peasants we are ! Dictatorship I say !!

      Personally, I thought we were an anarchosyndicalist commune, working as an autounoumous collective, taking in turns to act as a sort of executive officer for the week, but all the decisions of the lead Blogger must be ratified at the bi-weekly meeting, by a 2/3 thirds civil majority in case his lordships, Jake or JDA do not agree…

      I rather tend to think that supreme executive power derives from only the mandate of the masses and not some farcial represent system….

      I say if we must take a vote…I bequeth King Curious Hobbit as lord of the blog….(but only if Dal and Goofy agree)….

      ttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t2c-X8HiBng

      Joad

      • Joad

        I sincerely thank you, and will happily accept the mantle of Lordly-Kingliness-ship of ‘Home of Hobbit-ville’ ..which I’m planning to rename this site, upon my deserved ‘crowning’ of victoy-ness.

        – especially in light of the fact that I’m hugely confident of never ever being at risk (no matter what) of ever being banned by those two rascals, Dal and Goof[BANNED!]

        [signed – Dal and Goofy, in unison, unanimously, and both at once, at the same time, simultaneously!]

        uh-oh.. 🙁

        • Curious Hobbit—

          You are very funny–and you should be very thankful to live in New Zealand–what a beautiful place. One of the funniest shows on television here was “Flight of the Conchords” with two gents from NZ who were absolutely hilarious. All the best my friend!

      • well ..that was certainly a short-lived victory

        ( sorta like Milli Vanilli.. but not as convincing)
        😛

  47. I wish I knew exactly where the Treasure is like other posters here, but I don’t. I keep trying but always wind up with a lame solve. Others are running while back I’m limping along, blowing my own horn. I really feel stupid. I know it’s only been 4 months since I got involved, but I really need to have a break through moment. I know it will happen by George, but I guess it will take a while— I just need to be patient.

    I envy those with their complete solves. It must be a good feeling to know you’ve solved it.

    • Sparrow –

      I have been doing research on this search and on the West for a long time. I have developed more than 20 solves. More than 20 areas I would love to search.

      I could give you one or get you started or whatever works for you.

      Is there a state or area you favor? Is there a theory or idea that your thinking about? Let me know.

    • Envy has many different faces.
      For I am the Moon on a clear Summer’s night.
      I am the object of affection for a beautiful eye gazing from afar. But it is the morning sun that is the first thing to wrap around your body and kiss you each day,
      And for that, I am forever envious…

      Merry Christmas Sparrow, ( It is still out there, IMO)

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3xsP3u-CVO4

      A.B. / Joad

  48. Lugnutz—

    Thanks. I’ve always thought that it is in Wyoming. 20 solves— wow, that’s a lot. Is there one you favor above the rest?

    • Sparrow –

      I keep an open mind and I love hearing new theories. When I hear one I abandon my old solve and do a new one.

      Many of the areas I want to search are in New Mexico. The NM solves are the most traditional. I take Fenn at his word and use a traditional approach. Warm Water, Canyon, Tufa, Brown, Meek, End is Nigh, heavy loads, bkaze etc

      If those Ponce DeLeon Springs is the most romantic and still my favorite. It pulls me.

      In Wyoming I like my Thermopolis and Bunsen solves best. Those would take more space to explain. Short version. Thermopolis is on the stretch or road where Forrest was left out of the car. Or not. Bunsen is a Brown’s Descent solve.

  49. Going to throw my two cents in…

    I have only been involved in “The Chase” for about two months now. I have worked out over a dozen solves during long arduous sessions of research, reading, re-reading. I’ve gone two consecutive nights without sleeping because despite being doggedly tired, my ponderings have found me unable to sleep. I’ve tossed out solves based on many things that I have read. One day, I was certain I had figured it out.

    I posted the entire solve, and got it shutdown here on the forums; now my name is humblepi.

    My point is I am not a coward. Why would I post my solve if I was so sure, just for someone else much closer to swoop in and claim the prize? It’s not about the money. Could I use it? Yep. Would I like to bet the one to find it? Yep.

    I live far away; my chances for BOTG are very limited. Someone could very easily beat me to the chest. To me what was much more important than getting the chest was being the first one to figure this thing out.

    “Don’t let the fear of losing be greater than the excitement of winning”

    If you are too much of a coward to share anything, you don’t belong here.

    Things I have abandoned:
    Mountain Home in Brown’s Park UTAH -> Kings Point (no place for the meek) that takes you just to the edge of the search area map (abberations that live just out on the edge)

    Chama/Caliente convergence up to Embudo (hoB see this link https://www.nps.gov/parkhistory/online_books/blm/ut/7/chap1.htm ), commanche canyon (npf Meek) this one I still find interesting and just kind of got stuck after I became fixated on the idea of it being in Ra Paulettes first cave dug somewhere up there that was on BLM land and got filled back in. I think there is also a fertility petroglyph near Embudo, which has a connection to the frogs. I could never figure out just where exactly. Also a water tower at the old D&G RR there that lies near a creek. The IT was 291 you would be driving on if you were Forrest and came from Santa Fe. I read somewhere the WWH a few miles below the convergence and suppose it could be near where you would get onto 291.

    Dry Cimmaron down into Jack Miller Canyon.

    San Antonio Springs to Ice Cave Canyon or vise versa

    Los Alamos Resevoir…. seems to be the place where the Valles Caldera waters halt after heading into San Antonio Creek. Also near ski areas and bike trails…TFTW?

    Micah Mines near Ojo Caliente

    Ojo Caliente Springs up near La Madera

  50. I was excited to see EC Waters pop up my email but I guess I must have been to negative for you.

    I don’t know what to say other than I read all the blogs and I will catch you over there if you are truly going to canyon down.

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