The Nine Clues…Part Seventy One

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This page is now closed to new comments. To continue the discussion please go to the current Nine Clues page.

This is the place to discuss the nine clues…For instance:
What are the nine clues…
Is the first clue “Begin it where warm waters halt” ?

627 thoughts on “The Nine Clues…Part Seventy One

      • AH lahks ma eggstuff…
        So…really… IWill . The nine clues that you have deciphered, from Fenn’s poem are going to land you on a ranch near Santa Fe? And the ranch belongs to a friend of Fenn’s ? Then what?
        Just curious if you plan on obtaining permission to look for a hidden treasure before you trespass…

          • IW

            It is your disregard for rules, regulations, and the rights of others that irrtates your fellow bloggers, and, “Out West” just might get yourself shot. Not a threat, just a statement of fact. JDA

          • JD,
            First of all, I have more regard for the people here than you ever have had for anyone in your life. And these few fellow bloggers you say are openly irritated of amount to 1% of the searchers watching these forums.

            And as for your “side bar” threat to kill me… I’m going to be emailing Dal directly to have you dealt with. I will not be threatened by a deranged old man who forgot to take his 12 noon set of pills, when all I did was answer a question by paraphrasing a Forrest Fenn quote.

          • IW

            As I said, “Not a threat.” Just a couple of days ago someone asked a question about being on private property, and Goofy responded with a very cute quip that referenced getting shot by the land owner – that is what I was referencing – take your pack off and cool down. JDA

          • Firstly JD is cool.

            Second IMO if you ever go into private land of any kind you are deviating from where Fenn would have gone.

            Question. Any chance you can fill me in on what near Sante Fe means?

          • Not really IW. If you even take a stone from someone else’s property it’s trespassing and could (depends on what your caught with) get you up to 10 years in prison and the loss of your vehicle if it is also on the private property. One other thing to think about is any amount above $3,000.00 bcomes a Federal Charge not local.
            Is this the Brown ranch or a different ranch…IMHO
            Timothy…

          • Sorry Lug, I’m just going to leave the statement at that. It seems that everything I type gets jumped on by some rabid poster. I’d rather just lower the amount of logs on the fire so it can burn out.

            Nothing against your query though… it’s just that I know any answer will only exacerbate matters.

          • Hey I W
            What quote of Mr. Fenn’s did you use? I don’t see one. Mr. Fenn would never tell anyone to trespass on another property.
            Just asking as I have most of his quotes in a file and it’s s B—— to keep up with him because he has so many…
            Timothy…

          • Iron Will

            I’m asking about the ranch because of the high percentage of my solves north of SF in NM including Oso Pardo Ranch.

            There are some legit questions about public land including whether Off Reservation Trust Land is public.

          • IW
            I do wish you the best in your quest to find Fenn’s treasure. Play it safe and make sure you dot all your i’s and cross all your t’s before making any rash decisions. I know it is not really my place to say, but as a serious searcher I feel compelled to remind you. When I search…I always remember that it is my responsibility to obey the rules of the land in every way(trespass,litter, fires, wildlife, plants, SAFETY, etc.) because what I do may have an impact on every searcher out there now and in the future. If a person is a guest (paying or otherwise) on another’s property, that does not automatically give permission to search and remove anything of value without proper authority. Just saying…you are going to do what you feel is correct ( I hope). Again, good luck and don’t climb any trees and leave the picnic tables alone ! Just ribbin’ ya….

          • Ironic Will

            ..if anyones gunna get shot around here, it will more than likely be me, that’s for sure!! (although I can’t imagine why – just a strong hunch perhaps)
            so, after you’ve taken ya medical suppositories and feel comfortable enough to sit down, then you may wanna consider this:
            If Forrest actually hid the chest on private land, wouldn’t that give the land-owner automatic rights to the trove?
            I imagine it could get messy between the ranch-owner and the treasure finder ..in a ‘not good’ way.
            🙂

          • IW “What if there’s no question of trespassing? My feeling is, if you find it, you own it.”

            My feelings is, if you find it, you own it????
            ****Unless**** you can explain why trespassing on private property is not in questioned… your comment says, it would be ok to walk into an others home, find a diamond necklace, or go onto an others land and ride away on the horse grazing in a pasture… yell out, finders keepers losers weeper as legit.
            Whether…North, South, East or West and all points in-between, the last sound you hear, might be Bang!

            Seriously… do you hear what you are implying to everyone???

            IW ~ “And as for your “side bar” threat to kill me… I’m going to be emailing Dal directly to have you dealt with.” in regards to an others post.

            Personally, I think… it’s long past due for some kind of direct dealings with.

          • Bigbluecow,

            A lot of comments were stated here. I was wondering if you could explain / expand your post… with only ~ “I give you title to the gold.” and no screen name to direct it to.

  1. Thanks Dal and Goofy – Here we go again. Good luck to all searchers in finding the correct nine clues, in their proper order, and TRY to STAY SAFE ALL – JDA

  2. I took out the directional references and I believe the 9 clues are:

    1. Begin it where warm waters halt.
    2. Put in below the home of Brown.
    3. From there it’s no place for the meek.
    4. There’ll be no paddle up your creek.
    5. Just heavy loads and water high.
    6. If you’ve been wise and found the blaze.
    7. But tarry scant with marvel gaze.
    8. Your effort will be worth the cold.
    9. If you are brave and in the wood.

    IMO of course.

    -Randawg.

      • Jake;

        At the top of his post, he said that he had taken out the directional references – JDA

        As you know, I totally disagree – directional references missing or not – JDA

        • JDA,
          I am well aware what he stated & I think you don’t.

          He missed this one:
          2. Put in below the home of Brown.
          Is not “Put in below” a directional reference?

          How about this one:
          “up your creek”
          I think that is also directional.

          Please don’t shoot me for pointing out the obvious.

        • JDA –

          Please don’t shoot me! 🙂

          I’m curious if your solution contains 9 clues exactly or if the count might come up different. The reason I ask is because it’s hard to decipher the many things that f has written or spoken, and logic tells me it might be just as hard to determine what he considers a true clue in his mind.

          • JDA –
            If I remember correctly, you comingle stanza 1 with possibly stanza 6. If that is correct, does that count as one clue or two clues?

          • Stanza #1 = 1 clue.
            Last two lines of Stanza #6 = Clue #9.
            I take information from these two lines, and insert it in Stanza #1.

            The clues do not change, only how I read and interpret that info.

            Clear as mud? JDA

          • JDA –
            “Clear as mud?”

            Yes, that clear. To me it almost seems like what you have extracted and used with stanza 1 is counted as a clue and then counted again as clue #9. Reminds me of double jeopardy.

            Sometimes I wish Forrest would have never given a clue count because it’s one more thing that can lead to excess speculation.

          • Nope – It IS clear as mud. Sorry I did not explain it well at all. I will try again.

            Stanza #1 = Clue #1 – period.
            Last two lines of Stanza #6 = Clue #9 – period.

            All I do with “In the wood” of clue #9 is come up with a very obscure definition of it. I take this obscure definition for “The Wood” and insert this definition into “IN THERE” in clue #1.

            Clue #1 is STILL all of stanza #1. All that has changed is that now “IN THERE” means something.

            Clue #9 has not changed, except that “THE WOOD” now has meaning.

            Hope that this is clearer. JDA

          • JDA – I understand better now. My what a unique way of looking at the poem.

            How long before you will be able to scour the woods in Wyoming again?

          • Only the “Shadow knows” – and the weather man. May be as late as Early March – We shall see. JDA

    • Sorry ‘some’ of the directional references.
      I believe these lines provide the 9 that Fenn spoke of.
      Some of you disagree. Where do you think I’m wrong?

      -Randawg.

        • That’s possible eb.
          I believe the first stanza and the rest of the poem may offer important hints but I stand by my choices for the 9 clues. List your 9 if you are bold. 🙂

          -Randawg.

          • Did anyone else notice that FF reportedly mentioned on MW that 3 or more clues are in the second stanza of the poem? Perhaps I am hallucinating….it’s been kind of chili in Michigan

          • Hi Clint,

            I’m down in balmy Plymouth. We made it all the way to zero this morning. If you’re in Cadillac, you are already closer to the treasure than I.

          • That sounds reasonable. I have searched all of the states from my armchair. I’ve only had boots on the ground south of Taos because I was certain the HoB was Malcolm Brown. Brown’s daughter was working for Forest Fenn (and may still be working for him). That said, we came up empty. But I would be money that he knew Malcolm. Then I started looking for waterfalls. When that didn’t pan out I found the fairy falls in YNP but I don’t think that is it, either. So, now I am also interested in Montana. The more I search the lost-er I get.

          • Bob aka Robert –
            You are not hallucinating. It’s no secret that f said something like that. At the moment I can’t recall if came from a news article or another source. What I do remember is that when someone finished reading the second stanza, f said that sounds like 3 or 4 clues. It’s been around for some time but again I don’t have the direct source to reference. Hope that helps.

          • Hi Bob/Robert:

            From: http://lummifilm.com/blog/CBC2013.mp3. 4 minutes 20 seconds into the interview. Relevant transcript: Host: “Some of the clues maybe are things that people locally would know. You say begin it where warm waters halt and take it in the canyon down. Not far, but too far to walk. Put in below the home of Brown. That seems like a couple of clues to me.” Fenn: “That sounds like three or four to me.”

          • ZapMan

            Host: “there’ll be no paddle up your creek, just heavy loads and water high – hhmmm ..a couple more clues there.”

            Forrest: “sounds like it to me”

            including your above quote, that suggests at least five clues ..to me
            (excluding “..too far to walk”)

            cheers for the link 🙂

          • Zap;

            For me, the key words are “Sounds like”. Forrest did NOT say that there WERE three or for, he said ,”
            That sounds like three or four to me.” A BIG difference I believe.

            It is not what you say that is important, it is what they think you say. JDA

          • JDA

            @5.04
            Host: “I’m not tempting you to disclose anything here then”
            Forrest: “no, I’m not gonna give anymore clues”

            ..tends to suggest that he has indeed just given out some clues (?)

          • Thanks Zap,
            That’s one of my favs.

            Try this one on for size JDA:
            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T_fPF8Gc1I8
            How To Find Fenn’s Million-Dollar Treasure. Sept 8 2015
            ” I mean there’s people driving down the street looking for a blaze, because that’s one of the clues.

            So why would you have a whole stanza as one of the clues when he stated such? You say this whole stanza is a clue.
            Cardinal #1
            So what do you think he said here JDA?

          • While listening to the audio clip, I’ve heard the way Mr. Fenn spoke about “three or four clues”. In the past, I’ve learned that when one doesn’t tell the truth, their voice pitch will rise. While listening to his voice, I do not hear this. Listen and decide for yourselves.

            This is an opinion, offered as a thought.

          • Jake;

            What I think he said is not relevant to anything. We each interpret the poem in our own way, and we each interpret what Forrest says in our own way. Anything that I say will not change what you think you heard him say, and repeating what I think “I” heard him say will change nothing. JDA

          • Oh, you forgot to put your wonderful hearing aid in.

            For all of you that think 9 sentences means 9 clues, listen & watch that video & realize that the blaze is one of the clues.
            POOF!
            This is fact according to the man that wrote the poem.

            I heard him loud & clear.

            No explanation from JDA, just diversion.

            LOL, have a good search….

          • JDA – So from what I gather, you are not a fan of the possibility of 3 to 4 clues hiding in stanza 2. Is that correct? Thinking back through many of the statements that f has said over years, I can’t recall even one time that he has lied. I can recall some times that suggest partial truth but never lies. If you do not see 3 or 4 clues in stanza two, you might want to ask yourself what if.

            If you don’t see 3 or 4 clues in stanza two I’m not suggesting you’re wrong, I’m merely suggesting that f is correct when he made that statement.

            Clear as mud?

          • I like your thought(s) pdenver

            in my experience, a person who doesn’t hesitate in their answers, is generally telling the truth (as they see it) and Forrests statements about the clues seemed to lack any hesitation.

            ..but ..hhmm ..umm ..I think I’m.. I believe I’m ..ummm ..actually ..ahhh …totally wrong about that ..tbh.
            (see what I did there pdenver? – I lied)
            🙂

          • Not to repeat myself, but to me, the key words are “Sounds Like” Forrest did NOT say that there were 3 or 4 clues in that stanza, he said “Sounds like”

            TO ME a big difference. But we all hear whatever reinforces our particular point of view don’t we? JDA

          • JDA – So the “sounds like” is problematic for you. Have your family members that search with you ever said it “sounds like” you have figured it out before you head out for a search?

            I think you are splitting hairs with trying to decide whether Forrest is telling the truth or not.

            In closing I will say, it “sounds like” you might want to listen good when f gives away good information such as this.

          • In JDA’s defense, I’ll play Devil’s Advocate and point out that there can be many takes in an interview, and so we don’t know how spontaneous Forrest’s answer was. He may also have been given some guidance as to the kind of questions that might be asked. I don’t think this interview will or should convince people in either camp.

          • Z

            It would be interesting to know whether that was a live podcast/blog
            – although I do agree that some interviews are ‘guided’.

            editing/retakes still doesn’t explain why Forrest said “no, I’m not gonna give anymore clues” though
            – or maybe that bit was dubbed (?)
            🙂

          • Zap, now I’m reeeeally confused.
            ..is this your quote?

            “The poem doesn’t explicitly say ANYTHING is a clue. Sure, Forrest has given us some guidance by admitting that “the blaze” is a clue and “where warm waters halt” is a clue, and that there are possibly 3 or 4 clues in the second stanza, suggesting that “home of Brown” is most likely one of them.”

            Schizophrenia detected!
            (welcome to the club, brother)
            🙂

          • Hi CH,

            “Zap, now I’m reeeeally confused. ..is this your quote? [quote snipped]”

            Yes, that sounds like me. It’s not so much a case of schizophrenia as a question of what source material one wants to latch onto. JDA has his loophole with “sounds like”; I perhaps gave him some ammunition by suggesting that we don’t know how prepared Fenn was for the “live” interview questions. His answers certainly sound extemporaneous, but of course that could simply be because he wasn’t hearing them for the first time.

            In much the way that I dismiss the Little Girl In/From India remarks, I attach little significance to what he said here. I certainly wouldn’t let it make or break my interpretation of the poem.

            But for the record, I believe there are at least 3 clues in this stanza, which is hardly a blockbuster admission given that almost everyone believes WWWH and home of Brown are clues. Yes, 3 or more conflicts with the 9 sentences/9 clues folks, but that doesn’t bother me in the least.

  3. Remember “don’t go where a 80 year old man won’t go”. Mr.Fenn designed this treasure hunt for family’s . Also remember Mr. Fenn was carrying a lot of weight in gold. I don’t believe he would put it were there would be issues with trust passing. It’s safe and sound for all to find.

    • Quote: “Mr.Fenn designed this treasure hunt for families.”

      Not so sure you could defend this statement, PS. He says finding the chest is difficult but not impossible. Here are some synonyms for ‘difficult’ that could put a damper on your treasure-hunting picnic. They seem to exclude most of the children I know.

      hard, strenuous, arduous, laborious, tough, onerous, burdensome, demanding, punishing, grueling, back-breaking, exhausting, tiring, fatiguing, wearisome, complicated, complex, impenetrable, unfathomable, beyond one’s ability, baffling, confusing, problematic, knotty, thorny.

      • Lasonist –
        Forrest has also told us to think and use logic. Could it be that difficult refers to an intellectual challenge more than physical. I tend to think that figuring out the clues will be much more difficult than the ,botg, part of the mission.

      • FYI:
        “I think kids have an advantage (finding the treasure). Don’t ask me to explain that.” – (Moby Dickens Book Shop Signing / November 2, 2013)

        PS: FF would never trespass or break the law. 😉

      • Larsonist: Thank you for your opinion. As stated this journey was Mr. Fenn’s adventure to hide the chest. His poem is describing his journey at 79 or 80 years old. He was carrying gold in weight also. Two trips at 21 pounds or one trip at 42 pounds. Either way that’s a lot of weight for a young adult to carry. In my opinion the treasure is within the distance of 1 mile to 5.5 miles from a road. I’m leaning more to 1-2 miles and probably was able to make two trips with 21 pounds of gold. I’ve seen numerous post of two trips and some with one. In my opinion most of this travel was flat land.

        • Phillip, ff has stated clearly that he made two trips from his car to the hiding spot in “on afternoon”. One with the chest, another with the contents. It does NOT state that he followed the path that the clues take. IMO, the poem takes us on a journey that leads to the hiding spot. I believe that he went directly to the hiding spot by a different route.

          • Not Obsessed,

            Thank you for the content, or your opinion. In my opinion it took in the range of 1-2 per trip. I believe he did it in the afternoon to avoid people in the area. Again that’s my personal opinion and not factual. As I said in another post I came across Mr. Fenns treasure 4-5 years ago but with my work load at the time I couldn’t focus on the factual information and clues. For the past few weeks I’ve taken the time to analysis the facts and content of the poem. At first I ran into dead ends like most people . However I watched YouTube videos that interviews of factual information and review the riddle. I started putting things together like a puzzle . All clues make clear sense of his plan and why he put it where he hide the treasure. I believe I’ve solved his riddle from the middle of it. I’ve heard FF say if you think and analysis the clues it can be solved. I’ve read so much post and reviewed interview documents . I honestly believe I have found the correct spot of the location of the treasure. Atleast in range of the land mark it is placed by. When I get there it may take time to find the hiding spot, however if I see the land mark I will close to it. Now without me giving to much detail. There’s only a few views of the spot where the treasure is to see the land mark. I hope to find it ! It may take a few days to locate it still with all the clues I have solved. Another thing all of the information in my opinion I have solved is nothing in line of others. I’m totally looking at this in another level of planning. In my opinion again FF is using land marks! I truly believe I have solved this. Time will tell.

          • Clint,

            FF also said that the treasure is farther then 8.25 miles from Santa Fe. He didn’t say how much farther. I don’t need anymore clues or cards. Believe it or not the blaze is the key word out of the whole poem, it’s his land mark.

          • I agree with you the blaze is a important part.FF said if you start with the blaze you should stay home and play cards

          • Not Obsessed: “IMO, the poem takes us on a journey that leads to the hiding spot. I believe that he went directly to the hiding spot by a different route.”

            I’m in complete agreement with you. I think Forrest may have worked backward from his intended hiding location and found a clever way to use local landmarks in a way that could lead the searcher to the spot. The direct approach might have been too easy to figure out, or too clunky to describe using a poem without it being obvious that he was giving point-to-point directions (e.g. start here, drive this way, park here, go 250 feet north, turn left, cross the creek, etc.)

      • Larsonist ~ “He says finding the chest is difficult but not impossible.”…”Here are some synonyms for ‘difficult’ that could put a damper on your treasure-hunting picnic. They seem to exclude most of the children I know.”

        Why? would this seems to exclude most children. Physically difficult to do? Mentally challenging to solve?
        Is “finding” the chest difficult in what way?

        I could argue a ‘family’ consist of two adults and children… your statement seems to imply only the children involved… I don’t get what your implying. Many of those synonym mean difficult to “understand” – as to deciphering the clues [ which thus far has baffled ‘all’ the adults.]

        lol, many kids today can’t make change, or ring up an order on a register without a pic of a big-mack and fries.

        SF, podcast; “It’s not a matter of trying, it’s a matter of thinking”
        T&E interview; “If you can find the treasure chest, it won’t be a big job for you to get it”
        Fenn; ““I warned that the path would not be direct for those who had no certainty of the location beforehand, but sure for the one who did.” f ”

        Other than the fundamental guide…
        “If you can’t make two trips from your car to your solve in several hours, then don’t go.” Which can mean adults as well as a child.
        I have seen nothing that would “exclude most of the children” ~ with difficult but not impossible. How do you reconcile your comment? Just saying it doesn’t make it even remotely accurate.

        • Seeker,

          In my opinion FF is stating the challenges he faced at his age. I really don’t see him at 79-80 years old hanging off a cliff , or floating down a winding river. FF is extremely careful with his words, and has said he’s not going to just give the trove away. This is factual because I heard him say it in a interview. He stated that he changed the riddle numerous times. He felt like a artitect working on it. ( < the last might not be excact wording). In my opinion I think people are over thinking and risking their lives going places the treasures not. As stated I analysis each and every word. Not just the sentences ! I have a game plan set, and I truly believe I can put me in feet of the trove location. Each individual is untitled to have their thoughts on the riddle. I elimated other areas because the clues didn't pan out. My new findings if I'm correct will take me to it. Of course the obstacle is finding the hiding spot when I'm there, because there's more than one view point. FF is using land marks to identify individuals locations during treasure hunts and vacations. That's how he knows their 200-500ft away . I can assure you if I find it I will never reveal the location of where I found it. Best of luck in your treasure hunts.

    • IMO, I wholeheartedly agree with you eaglesbound. ” Just heavy loads and water high” is not a directional clue. It’s a synonymous associative clue, and has nothing to do with direction.

      I also believe “Your effort will be worth the cold” is not directional at all.

      But most are directional, as I’m sure you would agree. They could all be directional if you wanted to warp the meaning of direction to mean something more than movement or physical location… like it’s secondary meaning…
      2: relating to direction or guidance especially of thought or effort

  4. So Seeker & JDA: no comment on my reply to Seeker’s post? Maybe you don’t subscribe and missed it before Dal retired Nine Clues 70. I’m always a bit hesitant to give a lengthy reply when the post count gets above 500 because a new page is often a thread-killer.

    • Well Zap, Since you asked for comment from me, here goes.

      You basic question is, If I read your post correctly, “Can the poem be solved with only the poem and a minimum of “other” info. Do I read your post correctly?

      Given only the poem, and a Good map… things Forrest said that we could have, my answer is NO. Although that is all that I started with., I used Google for some very basic research. Without this basic research, I could not have gotten started.

      My first three solves were in Montana – all failures, but I gained experience, and insight. I then received my copy of TTOTC, and moved my search area to Wyoming. I then did the same basic research on Google, for Wyoming, that I had done for Montana.

      The poem, TTOTC, a good map (Both TOPO and GE), are all that I have used to SOLVE the puzzle. I HAVE read ALL of Forrest’s Weekly and Special Posts, as well as all of Jenny’s questions. I am fairly hard of hearing, so have NOT listened to most of the interviews.

      For me, the poem has ALL of the answers. TTOTC “supports” what I have been able to solve. I use two pictures and two illustrations from TTOTC. I also quote a fair amount from one particular chapter in TTOTC (My War for Me) as support for why I have chosen my blaze, and a couple of other elements. I also copy a few elements from the “Cheat Sheet” as support for decisions I have made.

      That’s about it Zap. Does this help? JDA

      • JD,

        Good write up and explanation. If I may add; while the poem openly contains the clues, one must use its words, TTOTC, a good map /GE and their imagination in order to decipher the answers.

        LitterateOne

        • JD & All,

          Go back to February 12th of this year where Seeker and Jamie Jones were discussing what if’s about how to read the poem and the book. Their combined theory is, in my opinion, one of the best if not best open ended hypothesis presented on this forum, and while it wasn’t fully thought out to its fruition, it sure opened my eyelids.

          LitterateOne

          • Litter81,
            If I was a neurologist I would love to examine this young lady’s neurons within her brain.
            As to the chase… she is one of the few that, doesn’t dismissed any WhatIF’s… although, at times, she forces me to do a lot of google searching…lol

      • Hi JDA,

        “Your basic question is, If I read your post correctly, “Can the poem be solved with only the poem and a minimum of “other” info. Do I read your post correctly?”

        Well, just to be clear, I wasn’t initiating the thread, Seeker did. My response was in reply to his question of how one could or should have proceeded in the very early days when all anyone had was the book. No map in TFTW, no mention of the Rockies, no restrictions on altitude, no limitations on which states the treasure could be in, etc.

        “Given only the poem, and a Good map… things Forrest said that we could have, my answer is NO.”

        So I guess you’re saying that Forrest’s original challenge was unsolvable, then? Because that’s all that anyone had. It’s not surprising that so many people latched on to New Mexico in the early going since “in the mountains somewhere north of Santa Fe” would seem to favor mountains that were relatively nearby Santa Fe, as opposed to say the Canadian Rockies. So Seeker was probably wondering how Forrest intended us to figure it all out at a time when we only had his book. Perhaps he always had it in mind that he would provide additional clues over time to better focus searchers’ efforts. But that’s a slightly risky plan for a cancer survivor.

        “For me, the poem has ALL of the answers. TTOTC “supports” what I have been able to solve. I use two pictures and two illustrations from TTOTC.”

        Okay, well this seems to suggest that you ~could~ have come up with your current solution without the benefit of the shaded map, min and max altitude, etc.

        “I also quote a fair amount from one particular chapter in TTOTC (My War for Me) as support for why I have chosen my blaze, and a couple of other elements.”

        One thing you should know about the “My War for Me” chapter is that it was published over 10 years ago. Not word for word, mind you, but much of it is identical to what appears in TTOTC. So if you use it for support for your blaze and other elements, then I gather you believe he had selected those aspects of his poem clues back at least as early as 2006. Nothing wrong with that, of course; after all, he said he worked and reworked the poem for 15 years.

        But I was hoping for your feedback (even if tongue-in-cheek) on the little hint I put together for you for Wyoming using “the end of my rainbow”. (grin)

        • Your hint about WY was cute, but since we all know my love of WYoming – I didn’t take it too seriously – sorry – I didn’t consider it “conformation” of my choice – JDA

    • Zap, I don’t subscribe and didn’t see this posting… so thanks for point the post out.
      Zaphod ~ “Good day, Seeker. O.K., so as an historical experiment you’d like to strip out all the extra information that Forrest has provided over the years (the shaded map in TFTW, the four states, the altitude ranges, etc.) and pretend TTOTC is all we’ve got. Rewind to day 1 as it were. So we’ve got the poem, we know it’s “in the mountains somewhere north of Santa Fe” and we’ve got the sentence right before the poem: “So I wrote a poem containing nine clues that if followed precisely, will lead to the end of my rainbow and the treasure:”

      I wouldn’t call it an “experiment” or “pretend” anything really. It’s all we had, right? Everything from that point on is cotton candy to enjoy. You also mentioned ‘Sprinkle of clues in the book’ Yep, we have this as well… which has been a big dilemma from the start. Although, we didn’t know about “aberrations” on the edge either; “something different” We also didn’t know about te RM’s being ‘The’ Mountains north of SF. Heck, we weren’t sure SF was even NM, except where the author lived. As far as the four states go… this information so far is ‘only’ where the chest lays in wait… nothing that I can recall ever stated that all the clues are withing them.
      However, we do have on luxury that many treasure hunts don’t… the authors involvement with it. But seriously, that is all fenn gave us from the start, he felt that was all that was needed. Right? No flash light and sandwich mentioned, no maps [ which seems an obvious thing to do in my mind ] yet since those comments came out I have read solve involving a sandwich or a lazer flashlight or a strobe light or a blue-light for reading notes on rock invisible to the naked eye…lol ok sure. [ who wouldn’t take a flashlight with them or water and a snack ]
      We tended to take a lot of after the facts, and dismiss possibilities that we should have understood them ourselves from the start, and maybe even important to know. Such as; The Mountains being the Rocky mountain range. Or Canada gone being an unintentional error removing it, and told it was a clue in the second book… but IF it’s not something we don’t need for help or understanding, why was it mentioned later? Were we to have figure this out, Canada, as we walked through our theories, solutions in the attempt to solve the clues?
      Now we have the sentence and information prior to the poem… it tells us he wrote the poem, it contains 9 clues, explains to follow the clues [ depending on the definition one use for ‘follow’ is going to be different to others… and might be important just for that fact, same for ‘lead’] So far we have [ from that sentence/intro ] 4 pieces of information. Then the sentence includes “my rainbow and the treasure” that’s 2 more pieces of information thus far, right? Well, we do have “precisely” so I see 7 pieces of information that introduce the poem. Now add another piece of information that is “directly” involved with the poem… in the mountains N. of SF [ without this information anyplace USA is on the table, but is that all that is needed to understand Mountains North of SF? ]. And we have 8 pieces of information.
      Which I have suggested [ and others as well ] without them, the poem can not be solved.
      The thing about these pieces of information is, while in the book, they are “directly” involved/point to the “poem” …and not part of any stories etc.
      They can’t be dismissed by Little Indy or anyone with just the poem handed to them… even if told, this poem will lead you to a chest full of gold. { I would refer to SidnCharlie’s posting to this scenario. Many good suggestion came from posters on that exact subject. }
      Now the dilemma of the stories sprinkled with clues… At first I have to agree this did sound like the book was going to be needed… it has “clues” Common scene say a “clue” is very important. Then we have all the after the fact comments… way to many to list… that basically tell us the poem as all the information we need to find the trove, and the book has “hints” that will help with the clues. So in all honesty, I’m still working on understand how the clues and hints work. I have no bragging solve like many do… not many failed searches with brilliant epiphanies only after a search, that claim to know how to solve the poem { Seriously can’t anyone simply turn around for a million plus in gold and trinkets IF the KNOW } instead of waiting to get home and brag about “now I know” BS.
      Zap, if you have the Clues vs Hints figured out or anyone else, I applaud you. { fenn calls everything a clue, so I’m still lost }But thus far with all I have read on the blogs, all that knowing, hasn’t produced anything other than more bragging. I have been dissecting every piece of information fenn has provided, and can honestly say… I don’t know crap… but I’m still digging for the “facts” that might help me… not guessing and hoping… precisely is an important piece of information in my book.

        • Curious Hobbit,
          The post was in response to Zaphod post dec16 9:41am. ~ above.
          A roll over from the last nine clues thread.
          If you were serious about being lost to what was stated, Zaps post and inquiry can be found there.
          If you didn’t understanding what was said, lol… you have company with Jake and IW…

        • How did this post get here? HMA this was in-regards to the editor… I did get a chuckle out of it.

          • That’s what happens sometimes when you don’t reply to an email sub & use the reply button on the same page after the 1st reply.

            When you reply to a comment from your email sub, it always goes where intended.

      • I would suggest any searcher to do logic porblems in puzzle books. It helps one to understand how a large amount of comments with little info can be used to deduce a few things for certain. Then you use those certainties To solve the entire puzzle. Has it helped me to know anything for certain in the chase? No, but knowing that I feel has helped me and due to process of elimination I feel about 85% correct on 2 clues.

    • Zap,

      Missed posting this last thread, but I assume your WWWH is the one that has distinctive non-olfactory sensual properties. It’s downstream from one of my earlier WWWHs that involved much more water of a different color.

  5. As i have gone alone in there and with my treasures bold! You know the hardest things to find is right under your nose! There have been people 200 ft and 500 away from it. I think the first paragraph of the poam is the first clue.

    • Clint;

      Not that it is a big deal, but in a poem, it is called a stanza, and not a paragraph. Like I said, it is not a big deal. JDA

      • JD
        Know what, I wish my dad would look into a hearing aid or two, it’s not like he can’t afford one, he’s just old and stubborn (90). Maybe you’re like him and have selective hearing?

        I’ve had plenty of dealings with audiologists thanks to an in-law. It’s true the devices are pricey/ can help quite a bit, but it’s not like they can restore all the aspects of good hearing.

        So I am wondering, when you find the TC late next spring are you going to visit a specialist or three?

        In the meantime, I would advise you to crank up the volume on all of Fenn’s interviews, or watch them with a friend, I think there’s some good stuff there.

        • I have a wonderful set of hearing aids. I choose not to use them, except at social occasions. I find the “Noise” of every-day life distracting. I prefer my “Muted” view of the world.

          I agree, that there MAY be valuable information in the interviews, but since I have a complete solve, which I honestly feel will lead me to the treasure, at this time I choose not to listen to most of the interviews. I have listened to a few, but not many. JDA

          • JDA: “I have a wonderful set of hearing aids. I choose not to use them”

            This explains a lot.

            I wonder why someone would NOT want to listen good?
            So hear me all and listen good…..

          • Jake – Thanks for the shout out on my moniker! When I chose it, I had no idea just how useful it would be.

          • Hma, unfortunately your moniker is being ignored by quite a few searchers.
            Oh well,
            We only hear what we want to hear.

          • I feel sorry for you JDA,
            You tell people to use all the tools at your disposal besides the poem & yet you have little interest in the interviews. Do as I say & not as I do?

            I’m beginning to wonder if you’re somewhat blind as well.

            I had wondered why I got the same stubborn reply from you after posting a video or audio. Now I know for sure.

            Oh well, Have more fun…

          • Jake –
            I’m fine if others want to ignore me. When I chose my moniker, I just picked a part of the poem that had a nice ring to it.

            Not long ago JDA thought I was boasting because of the name, but in truth nothing could be further from the truth.

    • Cilnt— are you inferrongbthe first clue is a moustache? That’s brilliant!

      Just kidding. 🙂

    • Clint–

      The more I think about it, the more I feel you could be right. The first stanza may be the first clue. And since you have established this much sought after piece of important information, would you please be so kind, and tell us less informed, and mentally challenged individuals what it is?

      What I mean to as is WHAT’S the :’%*”*% FIRST CLUE!!! ???

      Your response would be greatly appreciated. Thank you.

  6. I just have one of those old metal tuba shaped things where you put the small end in your ear and face the tuba shaped top towards the person you’re talking to and say “eh?” or “what’s that?”. It works just fine.

      • pdenver – You are very welcome. Hope all is well around Denver metro today. I’m getting snow in KS today. I hope desertphile is not planning on a search in KS this weekend because the weather is atrocious as Forrest would say.

        • Sub-zero to single digits for the highs. Our 1-3″ of snow proposed last night ended up to be 6-12″. Hope you don’t get that much. As for Desertphile searching Kansas, he has his hat and beard to keep him warm. 🙂

  7. This blog is great. I actually began reading one post above, did some ironing, took a nap, and finished ironing before I completed the read. This place is quite enjoyable. 🙂

  8. And with my treasures bold! I think there are people living within 500ft where indulgence was placed and that some have been within 200ft.Big hint think like mr Fenn he is a arkeyaoligest take it apart layer by layer.

    • Clint,
      People living “within 500′” of where he would throw himself on the chest and let his body decay into the soil?

    • No you didn’t, Fenn did. That was my point… for a body within 500 feet of a dwelling would more than likely be discovered within a short amount of time, by adults walking, children playing, the family dog etc.

    • Yes it is, but only if you understand what COLD really means, and it has very little to do with temperature, at least in my opinion and solve – JDA

        • Sorry, I am not the guy to talk to. Late March – mid April at the higher elevations
          in Idaho and Wyoming.

          Yellowstone roads usually open around 15 April if that is an indicator. JDA

          • When the roads open in Yellowstone they open slowly…one at a time…It takes days and days to get all the roads open…and then…all you have is open roads…no campgrounds, no parking lots…no rest rooms…and the roads are like white walled canyons. The snow on each side of the road is 3-10ft in height depending on how much snow accumulated in winter. You might be able to drive safely but unless you have snow penetrating eyeballs you won’t see what’s on the ground.
            Folks seem to forget that the elevation of most of the low laying land in Yellowstone is 6,000ft…
            and West Yellowstone constantly breaks it’s own record for a city in Montana with the most accumulated snow…
            Winter is tough…and lingers in that part of the country…

            The Yellowstone National Park website and webcams will let you know how much snow is laying around…
            Make sure you check them before you head out..
            Spring in the mountains is not the same as spring on the plains…
            I have been in Yellowstone in June and found the place with well over two feet of snow…
            If all you’re checking is the road…go right after they open the road you plan to search…but if you want to explore an area away from the road…then wait till late May at the earliest…

            Here is a story I wrote about being in Yellowstone in April…
            http://dalneitzel.com/2012/04/22/dont-try-this-without-a-lifeguard/

  9. In regards to statements made about the 500′ and 200′, and people blowing right past the later clues, as well as FF thinking possibly up to 4 clues had been solved:

    Do any of you find this scenario to be plausible:

    Clue 3 is the end is ever drawing nigh
    Clue 4 No paddle up your creek just heavy loads and water high

    clue 3 is telling you the end is in a draw up to the left
    clue 4 is telling you where to stop moving up the creek and to follow the draw when you reach the heavy loads and water high

    Other searchers who reached this area of heavy loads and water high were looking for the blaze in this spot and were 500′ away.

    Different searchers who explored a little more thoroughly went up the draw a ways and were within 200′. However, when they told f. about their searches they didn’t identify why they went up this area, so f. is unsure if they did so because they solved clues 3 and 4 or they were just poking around blind after solving 1 and 2.

    and please don’t respond with no its not possible because that doesn’t fit my clues/solve

    I guess generally what I am asking is does anyone else interpret the no paddle line as stop going up the creek?

    • Humble3.14159

      I often wondered whether ‘drawing nigh’ meant; to follow a creek/river or path that curves to the left, maybe even a road(?)
      (draw: to gently pull or guide (someone) in a specified direction)

      and have recently contemplated too, whether ‘there’ll be no paddle up your creek’ implies that you should NOT follow this creek, as a red herring, perhaps? – but haven’t convinced myself of that, yet.

      and ‘heavy loads’ could mean an old historical pack-trail – plenty of those on the USGS maps, esp in YSP area.

      I admit though, that I still haven’t defined the difference between a clue and a hint yet, so don’t ask me to # anything, but I do think your ideas are valid

    • HP, I’ve had many thoughts on “no paddle up your creek” -don’t go up the creek at all, something to do with “up a creek without a paddle”, directional instruction to go up the creek but don’t need to be in the water, etc. But when I started to figure out how the hints in the book work, what “paddle” meant was one of the easiest to decipher. ( It has nothing to do with boating )
      I think Forrest had a lot of fun playing with words when drawing the blueprint and we need to do the same with deciphering it. Look up the meaning of words then let your imagination play with all the different ways those words can be used.

    • In short – my answer is no to all of your assertions.

      1) For me, Clue #3 = Put in below the home of Brown.”
      2) Clue #4 = all of stanza #3
      3) For me “END” = a boundary (Ever = more than one, so I meet two boundaries)
      4) Nigh, for me = near – “The boundary is drawing near more than once.” (sic)
      5) No paddle up your creek = Rapids and waterfalls, no paddeling up this portion of the stream or creek.
      6) Just heavy loads = the 42 Lb. treasure chest and contents
      7) Water high = a waterfall

      So, I can not agree with anything that you said, for the reasons stated. Are you right and I am wrong? Entirely possible. JDA

    • HumblePi,

      In regards of the 200ft to 500ft. In my opinion there’s identifying land marks in the pictures that individuals send into Mr. Fenn for him to determine the distance from the treasure. I about Mr. Fenns treasure hunt about 4-5 years ago, however with my work load I couldn’t focus on it. For the last few weeks I have been focused on the riddle. I’m closing in on it, and believe I can put myself in eye sight of the treasures location. I know you all have heard that before. However in due time if I’m correct you will see. On the tip that Mr. Fenn is seeing land marks in pictures sent to him from treasure hunters and trips from individuals vacations I’m pretty sure in my opinion it’s land marks from the pictures.

  10. The clues did not exist when he(fenn) was a kid…obviously because he had not created them yet….but, most of the places did. “Most” being a relevant word because it hints at the fact that at least some of the clues are places. In fact I would say that the majority of the clues would have to be “places” if you consider that we are trying to decipher “directions” to a hidden treasure. My point here is to say that it makes sense that some of the “places” (how many?) did not exist when he(fenn) was a kid. This makes me believe that at least one or more of the places were built or created by man or nature at some point after fenn was a kid. This could be a great “indicator” tip….or maybe not.

    • I agree ken,
      I think 8 of the clues are places.
      This is a good tip to believe & work into your solve.

      I can see the blaze as being completely natural.

      • That was my next thought to share…or question…is the blaze a place(as in a destination) or is it a thing (as in a specific object).
        Is/are more than one place/s in a solve, recent, or, ancient?

        • From what F said, it’s an object, not feasible to remove, pretty permanent, doesn’t know what direction it’s facing, it’s a clue.
          Did I miss something?

          My personal opinion, it’s a rock formation or waterfall/cascade.

          • Just saying that a specific object, etc. etc., such as “your” rock formation or waterfall, would likely have to be facing some direction. For Fenn to say he doesn’t know what direction gives pause to “why”. As a pilot and outdoorsman one would surmise that he would be well aware of direction at all times…

          • Mr. Fenn,

            Which direction does the Blaze face? North, South, East or West? Curious. Foxy

            ” I didn’t take a radial off of the blaze Foxy. I’m thinking it may not be any of those directions. f ”

            Yea, maybe I phrased that incorrectly.
            Maybe he just didn’t want to give the direction as a clue/hint but it does seem likely as you stated with all that experience in AF & outdoors he would know which direction it is facing but it also may have more than one face.

          • The posed question is as follows:Mr. Fenn,
            Which direction does the Blaze face? North, South, East or West? Curious. Foxy
            I didn’t take a radial off of the blaze Foxy. I’m thinking it may not be any of those directions.
            Forrest knows which direction the blaze faces. Pick ANY direction that is NOT N,S,E,or W and you have a chance. JDA

          • The second part of his reply to Foxy was where I was going with this…”…thinking…not … any of those directions.” If one is looking precisely down at something that is facing UP then that kind of makes sense…but how does one look down from there? What if…you are on your back looking directly UP…then when you look quickly down…there’s your freakin’ toes. Whhat …?

          • If the blaze is facing up & you are already looking down, the blaze may be the surface of a pool of water & I have thought that looking quickly down maybe telling you to hold your breath & take a peak in the cold water pool which can only be done quickly.

          • Faulkner said this?
            After walking a mile the 79 year old ducks under water to stick his chest of gold under a ledge or something?

            Bring a sandwich flashlight wet suit towels snorkel mask lead weights backpack at 10k feet at 36° temperature. Do it twice in an afternoon and be home before your wife knows you been gone!

            Just kidding Jake but seriously just stay out of the water.

          • Just waders Lug.
            I’m sure he has worn them before.

            BTW my name is Faulker or would you like me to call you Nullgutz?

          • Hi Ken: regarding the question about which direction the blaze faces, it seems to me a likely explanation for Forrest’s answer is that his blaze doesn’t face any direction. For instance, what direction does a tree face? Or a roughly spherical boulder? (I don’t think the blaze is either of these things, btw — just giving examples of objects that don’t have a clear direction that they are facing.)

          • Which direction does a creek face?

            Perhaps, just perhaps, “if you’ve been wise and found the blaze, look quickly down your quest to cease” is actually telling you the name of the creek.

            “No paddle up your creek” – the creek you have found is dry.

            I have found such a creek. I can find no other creek in the world with this name. Amazingly, I deduced the name from the poem and then looked it up on the map. I did not force fit a creek name to fit the poem.

            Scott W.

          • q1,
            The general direction a creek faces would be up, but then again it depends upon your perspective.

            I have thought your creek may be a dry creek & is still on the table with me.
            I also think the creek may not have a name.
            But I do like Taylor Creek because it is tailored just for you.

            So, what is the name of your creek?

          • I like that eaglesabound,
            When hiking Taylor Creek this year I had found 4 springs about a mile apart that came right out of the ground to feed the creek & 2 of them were close together where I was searching.
            I didn’t remember where F said that though….

          • J3DA: A blaze at ground level (facing up) certainly explains why people have been in close proximity (and looking for it) yet not sighted it. It would also make sense if the blaze was a trail (which do not ‘face’ any directions)

            just to be annoying though, NNEast or SSWest etc ‘may not (specifically) be any of those directions’ either.

            Zap: I like you idea, but IMO a tree or round boulder could easily be construed as facing all directions too.

            Jake: ‘look quickly down’ could also mean; to bow – combined with your clever interpretation, might mean somewhere like Bowman Lake or a similar place(?)

            ‘have antiquated diving bell – will travel’
            🙂

          • eaglesabound:

            ‘The grass sees, and the trees and rushing waters of the spring creek also see.’

          • You know what pdenver I’m away from my book, so I’m unable to check the exact wording, but I’m sure you’re correct.

          • Pdenver has it right. Here’s the paragraph from pg. 102:

            “Why do the yellow and purple flowers flourish where no one is there to see? The answer is at last obvious to me. No one has to see what is there. The grass sees, and the trees and rushing waters of the spring creek also see. What has made me think that I had to see the beauty that is there in order to confirm its existence?”

          • Thanks Zap,
            What I was trying to do was to answer the question, “what’s the name of your creek”?
            I know better then to quote f without the exact quote in hand. Hope no one was confused by it.

          • Thanks Zap, Pdenver & Eaglesabound,
            My memory is fading & I think this is from MWFM chapter describing where the waterfall is or am I just throwing darts with my eyes closed?

            No books, no, it’s a problem…

          • Wait a minute, Zap said pg 102 & you say pg 80.

            If I’m going to be able to rewrite his book accurately, I will need to know the correct pages & keep transmitting more info this way, there are a lot of pages to go.

          • Jake, pg. 102 talks about the quote/paragraph, Zap and I spoke of. Page 80 talks about the waterfall in “My War For Me” chapter.

          • Thanks pd,
            We are going to have to be enemies for the next 3-4 hours & I think you know why.

          • Hi Jake: the waterfall is first mentioned on page 80. It is also mentioned on pages 87, 91, 95 and 96.

          • Thanks Zap,
            That’s got to be some kinda clue.
            Although that many times may not be too subtle unless you’re looking at all the text in the book.

            I liked the mentioning of a waterfall, yellow & purple flowers, spring creek & the grass sees. My area has all of those & pine trees & sage.

            Maybe just a coincidence…

          • Lug,
            If you don’t know the error in that, then I cannot help you considering all the years you claim in the chase.

            The pinyon is the mistletoe, of coarse….
            And while your at it, kiss the frog & it will turn into a prince.

          • Sorry, I don’t know why, Jake.

            Zap, thank you for adding on the other pages in regards to the waterfall.

          • Jake – You might get a good switching from pdenver before it’s all over with. She has the advantage of being in the Rocky Mountains north of Santa Fe.

          • Broncs & Pats, pdenver. Might not be clear from Jake’s home state where his allegiance lies. (grin)

          • Jake,

            Regarding your comment “If the blaze is facing up & you are already looking down, the blaze may be the surface of a pool of water & I have thought that looking quickly down maybe telling you to hold your breath & take a peak in the cold water pool which can only be done quickly.”

            Sometimes I think back to what I thought when I first read the poem, I actually started taking notes right then, and the first time I read the poem I remember thinking the only line that seemed like something I could do right then was Hear and Listen Good (my wife might argue that point), I wasn’t sure how to tarry scant, wasn’t sure what to take down in the canyon, or even what canyon to take it down in, wasn’t sure if I had been wise, wasn’t sure why he left his trove, wasn’t sure of anything at that point except I could Hear and Listen Good, so I made some notes of things I heard upon that first read and one of those things was Look Quickly Down sounded like Liquid to me, I wrote that if there were any acrostics in the poem LQD was certainly Liquid.

            That was back when I was thinking like a kid, now I am a seasoned searcher that has overthought everything for a few years so I question if that is messing with the poem or if that is a cipher or if quick might reference fingernails lol.

            Mark

          • Mark,
            I am glad you saved notes when you 1st started & may be helpful seeing we forget a lot of things we thought of at the beginning.
            I have saved quite a bit since I started.

            LQD are the 1st letters to that 3 word grouping & I would not think that is messing with the poem at all.

            As far as it meaning liquid, one needs an imagination to make it work which seems OK as well.

            I just thought about all the things you could do quickly & slowly after you found the blaze & what I found was only 2 things. Under water or something that has to do with sun light & that’s it.

            Example: CH said to “bow”. You can bow all day.
            Others said quickly means “dig”.
            You can dig all day.
            Some say it’s a distance to look at something.
            You can look all day.

            But you can’t hold your breath all day unless of course you’re dead….

          • Oh, I see now. It’s early in the game, my friend. Now, if we can stop giving away the ball, and land on the Pat’s fumbles, we may have a chance. lol 🙂

          • I’ve grown to hate HOD I had to scroll up to far to find a reply.

            Jake,
            LQ has always meant liquid and it takes no imagination at all , as a teenager me and my friends used it all the time to mean liquid, but a certain type of liquid. It was the first thing that came to my mind but with the direction of the blaze question it was one of those that was really never answered for sure by Fen because he uses a uncertain word “may”. When one is held accountable for there words one learns ways to use words of uncertainty so later on there words are not used against you when one works in management this is one of the hard lessons to learn.

          • Count: “but a certain type of liquid.”
            Are you saying the poem gives info about a different type of LQ besides water?
            Yeaa, he does like to use the word “may” a lot.

          • Well, I tried Mark,
            I like your theory & you are one of the few veterans here & willing to look back & see what else is in there.

            You do have an advantage living in the zone but I would have to think your zone maybe further north.

            Don’t get me wrong, if I lived in any of the zone states, I would certainly check them 1st.

          • Good research Jake, but I stand by my reasoning and interpretation of “Tarry Scant”, and the rest of the poem. You should be happy, but
            as I frequently say, “Time will tell”.
            Maybe you should begin counting your pennies, Just in case. JDA

      • It may sound strange, but I think that all 9 clues indicate a place or thing. 9 sentences = 9 clues.
        Some clues = more than one thing. Even lines like, “Just take the chest and go in peace” – actually is referring to an actual place – Strange huh? JDA

        • JDA…for those of us that are not so sure of everything…it is sometimes beneficial or fun/challenging to look at things from different points of view. I gave up being so cock sure of my interpretations of this Chase a long time before you even came along. So, give it a rest…Strange huh?

          • Ken;

            I am sorry that you perceive my answer to be “so cock sure”. I was just stating the fact that I see every clue as being a destination, and that some lines that do not appear to be destinations, just might be, and that that is strange.

            Sorry if I stepped on your toes.

            JDA

          • You obviously pass your answers off as “fact” quite often. Facts that are “your” facts. My above observation/s were to pose another view of something that is not necessarily a “fact” to others. So, if you want to share something that is not necessarily a “fact” to you, that is another view point that might be worth talking about that relates to why Fenn was so ambiguous about which direction/or not the BLAZE is facing, then, let’s hear it….

          • Ya see ken,
            JDA has stated already he has SOLVED the poem & he knows where it is for the 9th or ? time (I’ve lost count) but he has to wait many months & spew to us what he knows without getting into detail why he thinks this way.

            It’s kinda funny to watch the roller coaster go up & down.

          • The scab is now thoroughly picked…and I’m gonna go talk to myself about why that guy Fenn was not able or willing to say which direction the blaze is facing…you all have a great day

          • be careful ken, I heard a rumour that someone here is rather trigger-happy.

            oh wait! ..is that ..is that a gun in your hand JDA??
            🙂

          • ken~ “about why that guy Fenn was not able or willing to say which direction the blaze is facing”
            Yep, that would be a great topic for discussion.

        • JDA,
          Something tells me when you search your area thoroughly next year, you won’t be so sure about your theories just like everyone else.

          As for now, I wouldn’t be too sure about anything.

          Just take the chest and go in peace, doesn’t seem to be a place to me unless “peace” refers to a place, but I doubt it & don’t buy into this after further study.

          • Yup JDA,
            The old saying I’ve read here from you many times.
            “I guess that only time will tell. JDA”

            I may not be very good at figuring the poem out, but I sure am good at figuring people out. You are one of the easier ones to figure. You are very predictable.

            I only wish F was this predictable.

        • I am not trying to pick a fight. When I said that I “THINK” etc, I thought that I was saying, IMO. If it was not clear enough, I apologize. I was NOT trying to state “FACTS” – these were my OPINIONS. I will try to be more clear in the future – IMO

          JDA

          • JDA…just for the heck of it…return up thread to your retort and read it carefully. Something like…”…just stating the fact….” It squelches (no pun intended) the desire to further any conversation about ANY topic when this is the approach…
            Early on in this Chase…I made an off blog comment to someone here that I regret to this day. To me, at the time, I thought it to be fact, in a general way. It still may be…the point is, that sometimes it is best to say nothing before thinking…

          • Again, thanks for your input Ken. I will try to be more mindful in the future. I AM confident in my solve, and by nature, I am a pretty direct person. Again, my apologies, and I WILL try harder to press down my enthusiasm. JDA

          • JD –

            I think it’s clear you are discussing your solve and your opinions.

            Also generally speaking none of what anyone says here is fact. I have seen many things repeated for 5 years that are not facts. Fenn may be the most misquoted misunderstood man alive today.

            Cheers!

          • Thanks Lug;

            Yes, it is my opinions about my solve, and the mere fact that I do have a solve seems to irritate some, and for that I am sorry. – sorry for them that is. JDA

        • JDA—–

          I don’t know whether all (9) clues are places. But I do agree that “just take the chest and go in peace” may indeed be a place. I enjoy the discussions here very much. All the best to all of the bloggers here. Everyone has an interesting take on the poem.

          • I don’t KNOW if all 9 clues are places either. It is just my opinion that they are. Thanks Sparrow – and good luck to you on your search.. JDA

      • Hi Jake: I’ll go you one more. Nothing about Fenn’s statement rules out the possibility that all 9 clues are places. 9 out of 9 is still “most”. It would be quite Fenn-like to give this kind of “truthful” answer: it’s true, but it’s not the whole truth.

        • I’ll buy that Zap,
          He could have said – all – but that would be too clear & we know he is not very clear sometimes.

          OK, what’s our next step.
          You lead the way without giving too much away.

          • where warm . waters halt.
            a desert?
            desert mountain is a high altitude desert in wyoming. close to sage ,pine, creeks waterfalls.
            looks interesting.
            happy holidays all

        • How far do we attempt to bend meanings… might as well say, all Bandelier national park is in play, even if some area is south of S.F. because ‘most’ of it is north.

          But hey, it works for me… “Begin it” doesn’t truly mean where to we start… It’s true, but it’s not the whole truth, Right?
          I get what you’re say Zaphod… but does everything the man says to be only 85% true? “9 out of 9 is still “most” … nope… 5 to 8 is most.

          most
          mōst/
          determiner & pronoun
          determiner: most; pronoun: most

          1.superlative of many, much.
          2.greatest in amount or degree.
          “they’ve had the most success” the majority of; nearly all of. “most oranges are sweeter than these”
          synonyms; nearly all, almost all, the greatest part/number, the majority, the bulk, the preponderance “most of the guests brought gifts”

          • Seeker: a logician or a mathematician would say “most” in this case is anything from 5 to 9, inclusive. I agree that 5 to 8 is the more sensible interpretation to the layman, but in formal logic “most” can mean “all”.

          • Zaphod,
            I get the attempt to wiggle around words and intents… I mean, some thing Brown must be a person, place or thing… when a possibility, Brown itself might not be, but what it refers to might be capitalize for a reason.
            Truth but not the whole truth.

            But if 9 people go to a party and “most of the guests brought gifts” …All 9 people didn’t bring presents.

            Think of it this way, a family of 4 brings a gift, a couple brings a gift, and three single people brings a gift. All of the guest brought gifts, but not all the people did.

            If most of places refer to clues, not all of the clues are places … making 9 to 9 to mean” most,” is the same as forcing 9 people to all have a gift.

      • Why do all the places have to be in the Rockies? Did Fenn ever say this? He doesn’t talk about the clues often but he does talk about the location of the chest often. We know For sure TC is in the Rockies but what if were looking for the clues in the wrong place? Then you will never find the TC. I think its a given that at lest some of the places the clues refer to have to be in the Rockies. Food for thought…

        • The Count,
          While in theory you might be correct, and I have asked the same in the past… but how do we think that clues are not…IF… the first two clues are?
          [first two clues deciphered] Searchers went pass, walked by etc. the other seven clue and the chest?

          If the first two clues are not in the Rockies or even within the map area of the four states where the chest lays in wait… where else can the clue be at?

          • Considering the little indy girl statement,
            I would have to say the 1st 2 clues are in the Rocky’s…..

  11. The particular area I am talking about is where there is a draw that meets a creek just shy of where a waterfall is. At first when my path arrived at the waterfall I wasn’t sure where to go and was just poking around on google earth.

    A particular object caught my eye and when zooming in it looks like a very large square flat stone (12′ x 12′) on top of an even larger squarish stone maybe 20′. It is really hard to tell if it is anything or not from GE. I took a measurement and this was about 489′ up a draw from the creek below.

    At this point I began pondering the directional clues that would point you to go up this way. I had previously been of the opinion we were directed to walk up the creek til we arrive at the heavy loads and the water high. But this particular scenario got me wondering if my interpretations were off.

    fyi. this cairn looks like a good place to rest and eat a sandwich, and my 8 year old said no paddle up you creek means don’t go that way…

    In this particular instance the blaze would face all directions I suppose. Lately, one Fenn answer I have been using to eliminate some of my solves was in response to being asked if the clues were the path he took to get to the treasure location. He could have said yes, and left it at that, but instead he replied something to the effect of to his knowledge there was no other way. I mean obviously there is always many ways to get to a place… you could parachute out of a plane and drop right onto it, but I took it more along the lines of it not being reasonably feasible to arrive at the location any other way.

  12. Anyone interested in my solution to all the clues plus a photo of the Blaze and the Tarry Scant just send an email to kdkkovach@gmail.com and I will send you a pdf file. I posted it on the 14th but it ended up in a closed archive a day later. I don’t want to post it again because some do not want to see it and I now understand why. In my solution the treasure is in a river and I do not have the resources to continue searching. I recently made a connection that would make this place close to Forrest Fenn’s heart and I explain that too in the attachment.

  13. If reflection is part of it, maybe looking AT it for too long wouldn’t be good. Best to move on?

    SL

  14. The treasure is not in a river IMO. They can change direction in a geologically short amount of time. The treasure will be in a place that will be very close to the same in a thousand years.

    We may want to think of a place that has already existed a thousand years or more without much change, that would remain the same for the next thousand years also. Again, IMO.

    • Sparrow;

      In My Humble Opinion, by deciding, before the clues have directed you to a particular place, that the treasure IS NOT in a river and IS in a place that has existed for a thousand years, aren’t you setting yourself up for failure? If you keep an open mind, then when the poem leads you to a particular place, you will be ready to accept it. Just my thoughts on keeping an open mind – may be worth nothing. Again, just my opinion. JDA

      • JDA,
        On a scale 1 – 10 & 10 being the highest.
        What number would you pick for your solve as far as being correct?

        • Jake;

          This question is like being asked, “When was the last time that you beat your wife?”

          No answer to your question will be acceptable. If I say “5”, you will retort that I have no confidence in my solve.

          If I answer “10” – you will call me a blow-hard.

          Sorry Jake, I am not about to accept your baited challenge. I may be old, but I am not stupid. I resent the question, and its implications. I thought better of you than that Jake. Oh yes, this is just my opinion. JDA

          • That was a real bad example JDA…

            I give my solve a 7,
            Considering I don’t have a clue what the HOB is.
            Then there’s the blaze which could be one of a few things I’m not sure of.

            It’s just a question of confidence.

        • Jake,
          Out of curiosity, you say your solve is a 7 right now, at what point would you email Forrest with your solve? When you were at a 10? Right before you were ready to retrieve the TC? Not at all, just go get it and show up at his house with the bracelet?
          I’m not a clue counter but if I had to give a number I’d say 8-9.5ish. But not sure when I want to email f, I’ve emailed him in the past with solves and always realize later that there’s more that needs to be untangled. So im just not sure “when” is the right time. I’m sure it must get old getting everybody’s wrong solves all the time. Maybe that’s why he backed away from the chase a bit.
          Just want to get others input…….

          • WY Girl: the various responses to this N-out-of-10 system of confidence is psychologically interesting, but it is difficult to gauge what anyone else’s numbers really mean. Searcher A might never leave home unless he felt he was at 10/10, while Searcher B might be willing to put her BOTG with a 6 or 7. Everyone has their threshold for taking action, and that threshold is probably quite a bit lower for those living within the four states.

            I think a better way to word the question is for people to guess (and really, that’s all it is — a guess) the odds that they are wrong. But even this is a dicey question to answer … how wrong is “wrong”? If you’re dead sure you’ve got, say, six clues right, but you are increasingly wishy-washy on the final three, your solution could be rather close to the TC location — but far enough off that you’d never find it.

            So I don’t think anyone can attach meaningful odds to their entire solution being right or wrong. Perhaps the more interesting question (to fellow searchers) would be something lke: “How many clues are you 95% sure you’ve got right?”

          • Ok…I’ll chase the fly through the ripples…(this water has kind of a warm feeling to it…you upstream Jake?) I’m @ a good solid 5…right in the middle…somewhere between “most” (that word again) and all.

          • Zap…
            I picked up on your “psychologically interesting..” response, and was wondering a couple of things…right out of the gate…I’m getting the feeling that your response is really about how you feel about your own solve. Sitting in the chair and you’re on the couch…is it your feeling that you may have a solid 6 and the remaining 3 are increasingly washy wishy…? Now that you have had time to reconsider ? A familiar #, 85%, may be more fitting for most…
            I like all of your input..always…because it keeps me on my toes and reminds me that some really smart folks are right there working double-time to get this thing done.

          • Hi Ken,

            “I’m getting the feeling that your response is really about how you feel about your own solve.”

            The main uncertainty in my solution is not knowing how Forrest numbered his clues. I believe his taxonomy is something to the effect that a true clue brings you a step closer to the chest (not necessarily ~literally~ closer, but along the specific path that he has laid out), while a “hint” helps you with a clue. So for my interpretation of the poem, there are hints in there as well as clues.

            ” …is it your feeling that you may have a solid 6 and the remaining 3 are increasingly washy wishy…?”

            No, my solution doesn’t really work that way. The clues direct me to a specific location, but I have no way of knowing what to expect when I’m standing at that spot (other than it’s a beautiful location). I’m 99.9% sure of my WWWH and my blaze, but that is still a far cry from knowing where the chest is secreted.

          • Zap,
            Out of curiosity & I know we are in the same general area which may be hundreds of miles.
            How many miles from my WWWH is yours located?
            I know your not going to give an exact mile count but I just want to see how close.

            As we know many have the Gibbon, Firehole to Madison as WWWH. I’m further up the Firehole as you know.

          • Hi Jake, Now *there’s* a question I’m happy to answer: more than 20 miles but less than 50.

          • I would have to assume it’s in Montana.

            I know you are very confident with your WWWH & if considering this as 1st clue, how many clues out of the 9 are you confident in?

          • Hi Jake,

            “I would have to assume it’s in Montana.”

            A sensible assumption. (smiles)

            “I know you are very confident with your WWWH & if considering this as 1st clue, how many clues out of the 9 are you confident in?”

            Well, as a reminder, WWWH isn’t my first clue. I’m counting it as my second because it could never be picked without having my first clue. But yes, I’m calling both of those clues solid and done with.

            From this point on there is clue-numbering ambiguity. If my best guess about how he’s numbering the clues is right, then I’m quite satisfied with my #3 through #8, while my #9 has a sliver of doubt, just because I think it’s pretty hard to have confidence selecting it without corresponding hints from the book.

            Now if my clue number assignments from clue #3-on are wrong, then I could be missing a clue or clues at the end. For instance, I don’t currently count “take it in the canyon down” as a clue, because from WWWH it’s blatantly obvious which way you have to go. But if Forrest ~does~ count it, then I’ve got too many clues, though some of them can be easily combined to reduce the clue count. For instance, some people might count “just heavy loads and water high” as 2 clues, while others count it as 1 or even 0. Same could go for “you are brave and in the wood”. (I’m not saying these are clues in my solution; I throw them out there as examples because many people have used them in theirs.)

            But however the clues are counted, my path doesn’t change — I’m still ultimately navigated to the same particular spot.

          • Thanks for the memory adjuster Zap,
            So if WWWH is the 2nd clue which many believe I hope it’s in the 1st stanza to keep the order as F stated.

            You’re saying the 1st clue clarified you’re “pick” of the second clue which is WWWH? I can see why your clue count may be affected as mine has fluctuated last year.

            Although he did say the hints in the book will help you with the clues in the poem, I wouldn’t try to look for hints in the book for all the clues in the poem. I wish he was clearer on his statement but I don’t think there is a hint for every clue in the poem but could be wrong.

            ATIITCD should be of great importance & would definitely peg this as a clue only because we do not know which canyon to go down.

            That’s one of the probs I see here. When there treading along to figur the clues & the number doesn’t add up they tend to stuff other lines in one of the clues to make the 9 happen.

            I would rather try & take the poem stripped down & figure out which words or phrases may be clues than try & figure out both on the run, if you know what I mean.

          • Hi Pdenver, I think one way to look at the clues-get-easier comment from Forrest is to consider the scope of uncertainty remaining as you progress. Prior to the map in TFTW, and no indication that the mountains north of Santa Fe were specifically the Rockies, the possibilities seemed quite endless. Thanks to subsequent clues from Forrest, anyone starting today has “only” portions of four U.S. states to consider.

            As you solve each clue, the remaining area in play collapses little by little, so there are fewer and fewer choices for the remaining answers. So in that sense the clues get generally easier since you don’t have to scour the vastness of what you started with. But I still think the clues are pretty tough from beginning to end.

          • Hey Zap….I think it was said on the last part of this blog, and I also chimed in on my view. But I wanted to elaborate a little more, so you can understand my POV.

            First off, I do understand the POV in being that we should all share freely on the blog for all to use and then whomever with the correct info used in order to find the chest, is the one who succeeds.

            That doesn’t set well with me completely, because one may spend years on this search diligently and put a lot of hard work into getting to where they are in the quest…and then just throw it call away to a newcomer of only two years, per se?

            I don’t think so.

            I also understand that sharing is helpful. I can honestly say that I have never looked in another person’s search area, but have used their logic and reason they have expressed in the blog to how they arrived at where they are looking. I use this nentality in order to refine mine.

            I also try to put myself into the shoes of ff in order to try to obtain some semblance of what he was thinking when he put this puzzle together.

            Tell ya what….you want some help?….fine….I’ll give you my view in some of the clues, but I will not give you my location…fair enough?

            WWWH – edge of civilization, lodge, hotel, airport, museum, motel, a place with running warm water. WWWH is micro view

            Canyon down – literally a canyon between mountain ranges…macro view

            hoB – a place where something or someone lives/lived – which contains the name of “Brown”. I think it is a person AND a reference to an animal like a beaver, bear, etc.

            NOTE….IMO this is a key location in the poem. Oh yeah, I have one, and I will not reveal it, because I think it will cause a dramatic change in the search to this area. And it is a direct connection to TTOTC. I will dangle this out there, just to tease you….*smiles*….and to prove my point I’ve stated….and of course to alert you and others how important it is….if you find it…it changes your perspective grearly, and reduces your search area even more.

            Meek – a forest, park, national park ON BLM LAND…tis eliminates many areas, and many of the legal aspects of the find.

            Nigh – archaic for left

            Creek – dry creek, low water creek, Rocky creek, muddy creek (also a reference in TTOTC)

            Heavy loads and water high – an extension of the creek but probably a waterfall (TTOTC connection) and a mountain lake….possibly his Secret Fishing Hole (TTOTC). Also signifies “no one knows where it is at.” if you utilize the picture in the book…it clearly is a photo with MANY fish. A spawning ground maybe?

            The rest of the poem..well…it is self explanatory for the winner.

            There ya go….most of my clues, and a little idea of what I “hold back.”

            Remember…this is a winner take all search. I plan on winning. And a treasure seeker doesn’t do that if he gives out all of his/her secrets.

            Cheers and good,luck in the hunt. I hope I helped you out in some little way. Think of me if you find Indulgence.

            Tim

          • Hi Jake,

            “So if WWWH is the 2nd clue which many believe I hope it’s in the 1st stanza to keep the order as F stated.”

            Yes, first clue in first stanza.

            “You’re saying the 1st clue clarified you’re “pick” of the second clue which is WWWH?”

            I’ll put it another way, the answer to WWWH is a very big place. The first clue specifies an exact spot in the second clue.

            “Although he did say the hints in the book will help you with the clues in the poem, I wouldn’t try to look for hints in the book for all the clues in the poem.”

            I didn’t, initially. I found hints in the book for the first two clues long after I had already settled on them. I thought there were maybe 4 or 5 total hints in the book, but IMO that turned out to be a gross underestimate.

            “ATIITCD should be of great importance & would definitely peg this as a clue only because we do not know which canyon to go down.”

            Ahh, but what if the solution to the first 2 clues gives you exactly one choice for the canyon? Would you consider it a clue anymore, or more importantly would Forrest? I admit I don’t know the answer to that.

            I would rather try & take the poem stripped down & figure out which words or phrases may be clues than try & figure out both on the run, if you know what I mean.

          • Zap: “I’ll put it another way, the answer to WWWH is a very big place.”

            How very big of a place? You make it sound like it’s as big as the Rocky’s themselves which we already know this.

            Can you put a rough mile radius on how very big?

            Zap: “I didn’t, initially. I found hints in the book for the first two clues long after I had already settled on them.”

            So you had the 1st 2 clues in the poem & then used hints (evidence) in the book to back up the clues you had in the poem.

            It may seem a little backwards to me but it could go both ways considering the hints in the book still help with the clues in the poem.

            The only debate I can have with the 1st 2 clues giving you the exact canyon down is that I would consider it a clue knowing you had to figure it out & I don’t know what F thinks about it & will not try to guess.

            I would rather try & take the poem stripped down & figure out which words or phrases may be clues 1st than try & figure out both, what words and/or phrases are clues & what places they refer to on the run, if you know what I mean.

          • Zap, do you feel no one could possibly find the treasure without being shown the map in TFTW or heard about the mountains north of Santa Fe? The first two clues (or so) couldn’t get people there?

          • (Jake/All: ignore the last paragraph above — it’s originally from your message, but I forgot to clip it out of my reply.)

            Pdenver: “Zap, do you feel no one could possibly find the treasure without being shown the map in TFTW or heard about the mountains north of Santa Fe?”

            Well, everyone had the bit about the treasure being in the mountains north of Santa Fe since that was in the book. But I think most people interpreted this to mean ~nearby~ mountains, which had everyone scrambling around northern New Mexico. It was only later that we learned he meant the Rockies.

            To sort of answer your question, if you had TTOTC and nothing more, could you do it? I think yes … eventually. Because sooner or later everyone would have exhausted the sensible possibilities in New Mexico, and some would have surmised that “mountains north of Santa Fe” is actually a very big area if you don’t try to read between the lines for something that isn’t there.

          • Thank you for your response, Zap. I greatly appreciate it. Just having TTOTC? I believe I would need a map, too.

          • Jake: you asked about the size of WWWH — no, it’s nowhere near as large as the Rocky Mountains, nor even a single RM state. I don’t want to be any more specific about the dimensions; suffice to say that it’s large enough to be an unactionable starting point without the first clue.

            “So you had the 1st 2 clues in the poem & then used hints (evidence) in the book to back up the clues you had in the poem.”

            Actually, no — my 3rd clue provided all the evidence I needed that the first two were right. The hints in the book were just icing. That said, I wish I had paid attention to some of the anomalies in the book much earlier. I might have figured out the first clue sooner than I did. Then again, those anomalies may only stand out to me now because I already have my answer.

            Regarding whether “canyon down” is a clue or not, let me give you an example. Suppose WWWH was Artist Point in YNP (it isn’t). Would you have a doubt in that case about which canyon down?

          • Zap: “suffice to say that it’s large enough to be an unactionable starting point without the first clue.”

            So what the heck is large enough to be an unactionable starting point?
            Never mind the 1st clue.

            That’s fine if you don’t want to elaborate on the size, but that answer is something like F would say.

            Zap: ” The first clue specifies an exact spot in the second clue.”
            Which is WWWH for you.
            “Ahh, but what if the solution to the first 2 clues gives you exactly one choice for the canyon?”

            There’s an answer in there somewhere….

            You talk as if it’s too late for you to examine other aspects of the book for hints & it’s not. Sometimes your better judgement comes from behind & don’t overlook it.

            I don’t think ATIITCD has anything to do with Artist Point (bad example).
            Don’t put all your anomalies in one basket…..

            Zap: ” my 3rd clue provided all the evidence I needed that the first two were right”

            So now you didn’t need the book hints for your 1st 2 clues???

          • Jake: “So what the heck is large enough to be an unactionable starting point?”

            I’m really not trying to write in riddles. It’s awkward because most people think WWWH is something fairly specific like a hot or warm spring, or where two hot-spring-fed rivers combine. But it’s nothing like that in my solution. Let me borrow one of Seeker’s ideas — suppose WWWH was the Continental Divide. Would you call that an actionable starting point? I wouldn’t. You would need to know ~where~ specifically on the CD; you would need another clue.

            “You talk as if it’s too late for you to examine other aspects of the book for hints & it’s not.”

            Oh, believe me, I’ve been scouring that book for months. I typed the whole thing in, including all the photo captions, chapter headings, vertical titles, page numbers, etc. so I could easily search for specific words and phrases and look for patterns.

            “I don’t think ATIITCD has anything to do with Artist Point (bad example).”

            It’s actually a good example for what I was trying to illustrate: for that spot, there is one clear choice for canyon down.

            I wrote: “my 3rd clue provided all the evidence I needed that the first two were right”, to which you replied:

            “So now you didn’t need the book hints for your 1st 2 clues???”

            I didn’t “need” them, but they’re nice to have after the fact. I think Forrest was very generous with his hints in the book, and was rather clever with a lot of them.

          • Lets rewind a bit Zap,
            Zap: ” The first clue specifies an exact spot in the second clue.”

            So the 1st clue is a spot or area that is very large & specifies a exact spot in the second clue. This seems like 2 clues to me.

            One as in the vary large area & the other is the exact spot.

          • Jake –
            If I may be so bold to offer some advice.

            Zap has shared a lot of great information, however it won’t mean anything unless you can solve the clues. I could spot some mistakes in the book before I figured out the clues but that did very little for me. I suggest going back to the poem. The poem is the base and without it nothing else will make sense. Study the poem in every which way you can. At some point it may open your eyes to a new way of seeing things.

          • Jake;

            How will going back to the poem help, if you are not willing to look at it from a different perspective, and are willing to ignore important things like hoB? Doesn’t make sense to me, but I am just an old geezer who knows nothing. JDA

          • Yes you are “just an old geezer who knows nothing. JDA”
            I do not ignore HOB, it ignores me…

          • Zap “Seeker’s ideas — suppose WWWH was the Continental Divide. Would you call that an actionable starting point? I wouldn’t.”

            I see where you’re coming and going with this. But the funny thing is… the first two clues comment[s].
            Has fenn every stated the first clue was a place, or a stand only clue? Here’s a Whatif… the significance of the first clue is only good if the second clue is a must to work with it, and that might be physical place. or better yet all the clues represent the same location, only by following the description of clues, instead of actually stomping.

            We have been told we need to nail down this clue… yet when searchers have been on location there was the second clue involved and all comments from fenn.

            Was this coincidental or by design?

            You said; “You would need to know ~where~ specifically on the CD; you would need another clue.”

            Sure, but you want it to be “at” what you consider the first clue… why can’t it be involved with later clues or even most of the clues that put you on a location.

            By simply hoping the first clue is a place, the actual starting point of a physical walk about… you may lose the effect of the other clues as important ingredients that brings the location together.

            Hence the reason IMO, forcing a clue to be a location/place only, or 9 ‘different point’ to travel hasn’t worked very well.

            PS. wwh is not so much ‘the CD’ in my theory, as much as, another clue might refer to it. It’s the watershed, and helped explain… no reason for searcher to “take it in the canyon down”… the water takes the canyon down [literally].
            But yes, in this theory the CD is the location to be at.

          • Hi Seeker,

            “Has fenn ever stated the first clue was a place, or a stand only clue?”

            No, I don’t believe so. He has emphasized the need to nail it down, but has not indicated whether it was a place, a thing, a theme, a system, or something else.

            “Here’s a Whatif… the significance of the first clue is only good if the second clue is a must to work with it, and that might be physical place.”

            A possibility — just not the one in my solution. Consider this idea: what if the answers to the first two clues are BOTH places or geographic “things”, and both have large physical extents. So neither gives you a unique starting point. Reason through what you could do next.

            “Hence the reason IMO, forcing a clue to be a location/place only, or 9 ‘different point’ to travel hasn’t worked very well.”

            Just because an idea hasn’t panned out for others doesn’t mean its basic approach is wrong. If your recipe has the wrong ingredients, do you expect a good outcome? If hardly anyone has the right first two clues, it’s probably not wise to draw conclusions about the viability of the point-to-point method based on all the failed outcomes.

          • Jake ~”We need the people from the far right as those from the far left & all in between & I’m not talking about politics although I seem to think you do have that agenda.”

            I just saw this… LOL… why in the world would you think I have a political agenda.?? Where have I ever alluded to politics in any shape or manner… Other than “We the People” are idiots because, out of 300 plus million citizens in the US we put Clinton and Trump as our best choices as representative for president of our country?

            I’ll state right now, that comment has nothing to do with the challenge or any other agenda… LOL man your really stretching on that comment Jake.

          • Seeker,
            It’s just the way you comment here.
            It reminds me of the political wavering where nothing gets done.
            Your statement about my Q 1 – 10 answers it all.
            Your not committed to make a decision which way to go.

            That’s all well & fine if you want to keep it to yourself but your agenda seems to be, you don’t know which way to go & skirt around the beginning of the big bang & you will dispute other searchers in there findings to back them up in a way to retard there forward progress to get them back to the very beginning where you are & have them stay there awhile to rethink what they think they already know & what you think.

            It seems to me, politics run this way, the only difference is the money (lobbyists) involved.

            It’s OK to try & stretch searchers back to your POV but your POV seems to lead back to the very beginning & I am pretty sure there are some here that are beyond that point.

        • Jake ~ “On a scale 1 – 10 & 10 being the highest. What number would you pick for your solve as far as being correct?”

          lol… I’m still working on “certainty beforehand”

          • Seeker,
            We have to start somewhere don’t we?

            You have taken trips to West Yellowstone & I would have to think your confidence level would be around 7-8 to book a trip & spend some money.

            I haven’t seen anyone boasting about 10 yet on this site but I did get an email from someone boasting the big fat 10.
            I think he’s too afraid to post it….

          • Jake;

            Why would anyone boast of a “Big fat 10” on the blog? Wouldn’t that subject that person to all kinds of ridicule for being a blow-hard or worse? I can hear the clamor, “How can you be so sure if you don’t have the treasure in your hands?” etc.

            Whoever boasted to you, hope he/she continues to keep his/her head down. Why get needlessly scalped? JDA

          • JDA you asked: “Why would anyone boast of a “Big fat 10” on the blog? ”

            I think it wouldn’t matter where you boasted that makes a difference.
            If you believe what you believe, then why would it matter where you state your belief?

            This blog is for all that believe but maybe not so much for those that are absolutely sure.

            JDA: “Whoever boasted to you, hope he/she continues to keep his/her head down. Why get needlessly scalped? JDA”

            If you feel as though words will hurt your scalp then maybe you shouldn’t stick your head out & not be here.

          • Jake;

            You said, “If you feel as though words will hurt your scalp then maybe you shouldn’t stick your head out & not be here.”

            “I” didn’t say that words would hurt “ME” – You interjected that, and that is getting a bit personal don’t you think? And saying that I should “not be here” is getting pretty personal also. JDA

          • Jake,
            Your scale, although fun for ego boosting, is none existence.
            Remember the day when all thought, all we needed was the first clue to be golden in our confidence?
            Two clues were stated as deciphered, searchers at the location, and maybe the first four.
            Some here are adding numbers of confidence and / or clues they solve, at 5 and higher…

            I have to chuckle at all this.

            My confidence level will increase when I can honestly say to myself… “what took me so long.” to understand… “certainy beforehand.” No silly little numbers to give me a boost.

          • Seeker,
            We all have this confidence level built into our heads whether you know it or not.

            Just about every decision we make is based upon confidence.

            I was just trying to get searchers level of such in there solve.

            Do we put a number on all our decisions? No.

            Our brains calculate the numbers game for us based upon all the info from the past & try to predict the outcome of the future or whatever the task is.

          • Jake,
            Just like how you and I perceive the poem differently, confidence comes in different forms as well. Some by our past experiences, other by our abilities whether with knowledge or physical. It also comes with attitude or personal ways, such as, one person being more a pessimist or optimist or realist.
            The same with this challenge can be said. You see it as only one way to read it. And because the majority sees it the way you do, your confidence your method is correct.

            Well, the majority saw the earth as flat at one time or the earth was the center of all, and how did that work out? Again, the scale thing if fun, but it’s non-existence to reality.

            PS, never been to YS, hopefully someday, I hear the majority who have gone love the place.

          • Ahh, yes Seeker,
            Our POV’s are quite different.
            This is what what makes us so different.
            I like the diversity for if we were all the same, we would be robots.

            We need the people from the far right as those from the far left & all in between & I’m not talking about politics although I seem to think you do have that agenda.

            You have mentioned going to Hebgen in the past.

            I cannot speak for our souls in the past when the earth was a square but we do have the knowledge accessible to us.

            “The world what we see is what we perceive.”
            You can quote me on that as many I have posted here.

          • Seeker, you HAVE to go, if you can. You won’t be disappointed. Words cannot describe the beauty and wonder of this place.

          • Jake ~”Your not committed to make a decision which way to go.”

            LOL and your thought is choose something and stick with it no matter what, right?

            Isn’t the point to evaluate those WhatIfs? or is your what if only changing a location? lol, The next session of dart tossing starts after the holidays. I hope your signed up, I hear the class is going to be packed.

            You can dismiss fenn looking up meanings, changing words and rebooting. Dismiss comments of down the road thoughts on fenn’s part, and keep head down rt. 191. Dismiss fenn’s example of adjustment, or that, many don’t see this the way he does, and on and on…
            I’m kinda glad I’m not in that majority rules thing you always bring up.

            PS, that majority rules thing is not a political agenda of any kind Jake. The thought that majority rules in this challenge imo, is nothing more than herding cattle… it’s all reputation, doing the same thing over and over again.
            Lacks imagination, don’t ya think?
            Your thought that we “must choose” is completely opposite to actual attempting to understanding what is being told… think, analyze, plan, uses a logical mind, and imagination … not, work on a hunch.

            The main difference here is, I can honestly say… I don’t have it figured out yet.

          • Seeker: “LOL and your thought is choose something and stick with it no matter what, right?”

            He did state there are 9 clues in the poem so, yes, I would have to stick with it no matter what.

            Seeker: “Isn’t the point to evaluate those WhatIfs? or is your what if only changing a location?”

            I already studied why he made that statement a few weeks ago & posted my findings here. Think about how many “what ifs” are out there. Only a few billion…..
            If this statement did not refer to what searchers were talking about on the blog, then I would stay away from the “what ifs” seeing it’s infinite possibilities.

            “doing the same thing over and over again.
            Lacks imagination, don’t ya think?”

            I have changed my way of thinking many times & imagination & logic have there places. Best to keep some things logical like trying to figure out which words in the poem may be clues but it’s a good idea to use imagination when it comes to deciphering the clues & what they mean.

            “Your thought that we “must choose” is completely opposite to actual attempting to understanding what is being told”

            If you never make a choice after analyzing everything, then why bother with the chase? LOL

          • Seeker –

            “You can dismiss fenn looking up meanings, changing words and rebooting.”

            I’m going to offer something up that you can chew on or kick to the curb if you will.

            You seem to be stuck on what f said about looking up the meanings of words, changing them, etc…… IMO, I don’t see a need to know the meanings of the words that he chose for the poem. I think what he was telling us with that statement is that he needed the words in his poem to say exactly what they did so that it would make sense at some point. I dare say that if he had altered the words in the poem with different word choices it would not work the way he intended and quite possibly the treasure chest would never be found. There is a reason for the words that were chosen, however it’s not what most think IMO.

            Have you considered that?

          • Hearmeall,
            I have considered it.
            But how many times has fenn stated he worked on those words… this was not the only comment about the words in the poem.
            I also have to consider, this is a poem, and fenn said he “chose” the avenue of a poem to present the clues. This gives the opportunity to word usage and multiple usages, and not so much a single meaning.

            Even the way fenn present what we need to do… decipher the clues… it seems more involved with words understandings than just follow water or canyon or find a place of meek etc.

            Example; AS I. three letters that start the poem. Is all this only saying AS fenn?
            In any literature ” I ” can represent someone in the narrative. Especially in a poem.
            I { myself } could easily have written poem with the use of ” I ” as fenn and not have it be me personally.
            ” I ” could also be the hint new and old fenn refers to… new and old as opposites to that hint, and those three letter are now ISA.
            ” I ” could also be a representation and a double [multiple] meaning, as fenn and ” I ” or eye as the sun or son.
            This is a poem first and foremost, and we were told its difficult. I { myself } have considered many thoughts… those few examples are just a tip of the iceberg.

            I personally think “straightforwards” is being thought of backwards as well, by the reader. IMO, straightforwards will be known in the conclusion of the solution.. to mean, what took me so long.. and not as a “use” to solve the poem.

          • HearMeAll;

            Rarely do I agree with Seeker, but on this one I think that he is correct, and you are not.

            For me, and my solve, the obscure, seldom used and archaic definitions of various words are at the heart and soul of my solve. If one uses only the accepted, “normal” definition of words, it is my belief, that one will NEVER be able to get to the “meaning” that Forrest hid in the poem.

            Someone once said, and I do not think that it was Forrest, that the clues get easier as you go. I have not found this to be the case. For me, the last five clues have been the most difficult, and have required more research into word usage and meanings than the first four clues.

            I honestly feel that I am close. If I had NOT relied heavily on finding obscure, seldom used and archaic word definitions, I do not think that I would be anywhere near to a successful end. Just my opinion. JDA

          • JD

            What is rare or archaic to you might be normal to someone else.

            Can you give me an example of a word that has one meaning in normal or contemporary parlance but a different meaning in a less used form?

            You don’t have to use a word from the poem although that would be useful.

          • Seeker –

            I have one thought that applies to you response. I’m being serious when I say this so don’t take it the wrong way.

            You overate the complexity of the poem. Possibly because you are so fixated on what f has said after the fact. Don’t get me wrong. The poem is a masterpiece but it’s not nearly as complex as most make it out to be, IMO.

          • Hear me all—-

            An interesting side note: in your post you said you had an idea we could chew on or “kick to the curb”.

            Only recently has that become an accepted word. Not too long ago the correct word would be “kerb” when speaking of the street.

          • Hearmeall ~ “You overate the complexity of the poem. Possibly because you are so fixated on what f has said after the fact. Don’t get me wrong. The poem is a masterpiece but it’s not nearly as complex as most make it out to be, IMO.”

            Fixated is not the word I would use. Yet we do have those after the facts to utilize. Why are some so dead against the information but still beg for more? if we don’t use them to better understand.
            I know one reasonable explanation… If an after the fact comment suffers on thought about a clue or the poem the way that person hopes it to be, it seems to be automatically dismissed as incidental.

            So, is Fixation meant for the fact that I actually utilize them, or folks just don’t like seeing them inline with theories.
            We might as well be looking for the chest in Nevada then, before when the RM’s comment came out. But I get why the RM’s comment is take more seriously than the others… it’s tangible… can clear be see and understood. Not so much with some of the others comments… but isn’t that part of why we read the after the facts? To help understand?
            “Not nearly complex”… hmm, how do we defined complex as not nearly… Oh wait, didn’t fenn do that in an after the fact comment… lol… sorry bud, had to do it. lol.

          • Lug;

            The easiest, and the one that will give away the least is Tarry scant.

            Normal = spend a short time

            Archaic: Tarry = Blackish in color like tar and Scant = A stone that is usually flattened on two sided, like a flagstone, or a burial marker.

            There are several more I could mention, but saying what they are would give away too much. I have mentioned “Quickly” having an archaic definition that tells the searcher where to look, not how to look. Hope this helps – JDA

          • And may I add JD that scant is often used specifically when describing ruins.

            Scant ruins here scant ruins there scant ruins everywhere.

            Didn’t Young Forrest keep a stone in his pocket for the purpose of making marbles? Was that sandstone? I forget but I know he names the stone.

          • I believe that the stone that he used was sandstone, but he made the marbles from agate. Seems backwards since agate is harder than sandstone.

          • JDA –

            I hear you. You have placed all bets on your solution being correct. I just don’t believe in any way, shape, or form that obscure words have anything to do with figuring out the poem.

            I’m curious though about your thoughts regarding hints in the book that will confirm clues. Other than f writing about the waterfall in My War For Me, have you found other hints from the book that provide confidence as you move through the poem?

          • JDA –

            You bring up a very interesting point about “tarry scant” – with your last post.

            “Normal = spend a short time”

            “Archaic: Tarry = Blackish in color like tar and Scant = A stone that is usually flattened on two sided, like a flagstone, or a burial marker.”

            The word “tarry” can be pronounced two ways and depending upon which way it is pronounced, will give you the correct usage. In every interview that I’ve listened to where f reads the poem, he pronounces it t-air-e and not tar-e. From what I’ve gathered you seem to think it’s the opposite of what he says, and you go with the black, tar like substance definition. Why would he pronounce it one way and mean it the other way? Could it be that you didn’t hear him correctly?

            If you go back and listen to f read the poem in many interviews, you will hear him say t-air-e. Does this change your solve in any way?

          • HearMeAll;

            Thanks for your posts. To answer your first question about hints. NO,
            I do not rely on other hints sprinkles throughout the book- – – Just the ones I mention in TTOTC in My War for Me. Two other PICs and one thing in TFTW.

            YES, I “hear” Forrest saying “T air e” and not “TAR e”. Were he to pronounce it TAR e everyone would know at once which meaning to use, and it would not “match” marvel gaze.

            By pronouncing it T air e it “matches” marvel gaze. To me, all in keeping with telling the truth only 85% of the time. It does not bother me, and I have found a way to make TAR e with Marvel Gaze, so I am OK. Thanks for asking. JDA

  15. JDA—–

    I understand what you’re saying, but I also remember Forrest Fenn saying that when he chose the “place” he was thinking a thousand years into the future also. This leads me to believe that the treasure is in a place that will not change much in that amount of time.

    A river can change it’s course in a relatively short amount of time. Other statements Forrest has made about the hiding place, in regards to children and danger also lead me to believe it is not in moving back water, or in a very dangerous place.

    So no, I would not say I am setting myself up for failure—more than likely I am avoiding wasted time and energy, used pursuing a treasure in an area that Forrest has clearly revealed through statements he has made, is not wise to be looking in in the first place.

    • I completely agree Sparrow, that the TC is not in a river – not just for the valid reason that rivers can often change their course (and sometimes quite swiftly) and present a danger to the more inexperienced adventurer

      ..but also for the fact that, being the largest of natural water-courses, they are more prone to flash-flooding, and I have often been surprised at how high a river can flood after sighting the flora debris, tangled in lower branches of vegetation, two or three metres above, whilst hiking a (normally placid) stream.

      If I wished for an object to remain relatively untouched over a long period of time – a river is the last place that I would put it.

      [ ..he quietly awaits the flaming pitchforks to come hurtling overhead, from the darkness beyond 🙂 ]

  16. The poem has six stanzas and mine clues. The game of “Clue” has nine rooms and up to six players. I think Forrest Fenn did it with the warm water in Wyoming.

    • I just wanted to add to my post above concerning rivers. They may have been flowing for 1000’s of years—-but their direction can change many times. Even the great Mississippi (a huge river) changes direction:

      ” In recent years, the river has shown a steady shift towards the Atchafalaya River channel in the Delta; a course change would be an economic disaster for the port city of New Orleans”.

      This is why I do not think the treasure is IN a river. Again, this is just my opinion of course.

  17. My point yesterday about the clues did not exist when he (f) was a kid, but “most” of the “places” did…was twofold. I was pointing out that “if” one or more of the places did not exist when he was a kid…they/it could be an indicator of sorts. A newer place that was not around when he was a kid could be a hint that a searcher was barking up the right tree…whether man-made or nature- made.
    The second thought was…is the blaze a place or an object…and why was Fenn unwilling or unable to say which direction the blaze was facing.
    Given Fenn’s definition of what “north of Santa Fe” is…above 270 degrees – 90 degrees, makes me wonder why he said “….thinking…not…any of these.” (N S E W ) . Yeah, NNE, NNW etc. could be the irritating answer…but I think it is maybe more than that.
    Jake mentioned one of the scenarios…blaze facing UP…hold breath(quickly) look under water. Could be…but I just do not see the chest being secreted IN any type of water source. I like that Mark(Taos) mentioned his early thoughts (written down early on)…smart man to chronicle early thoughts, first impressions may just solve this.
    Scott had an interesting take on it…the blaze being a creek…I just think that if a searcher is already traveling up a creek of sorts that kind of Trumps(did I just write that?) the creek being the blaze.
    So, here we are… up the creek…JHLAWH…then…the next destination is the blaze( if we’ve been wise and found it)
    Along the way( the directional path to the chest) if something/someplace is more recently made, natural or not, it could be a hint/clue, that this is the right way. YES/NO/MAYBE ? And for what it is worth…”most” is subjective/suggestive at best…

    • Ken, I would have to lean towards one of the places may be man made.
      Although earthquakes, eruptions from volcanic activity & floods can also create.

      The question is which places or clues were not there & even then, we still have to know which words or phrases are clues in the poem.

      • Jake,
        You can lean, sway, tilt anyway you want…
        I could say; I lean toward the earth is flat, but it doesn’t make the statement accurate. We now have other statements from fenn to assist us a little better in thoughts, right?

        So, lets play with the possibility of a clue[place] being man-made. We still have fenn’s comment he was thinking “down the road” We can even forget the 10,000 years remark, and lower it to 5000 or 2500 or even a 1000 years. What, in your mind says, a man-made “place” is more reasonable than a more natural made place?
        { if I’m reading your “lean towards” to mean that }

        • Seeker,
          I think a highway would stand the test of time over homes & business buildings.

          I can see Rt191 being there for hundreds if not thousands of years pending mother nature.

          • Jake-
            I think a highway might very well be eradicated from the surface of the earth in just a century or two. Certainly it might be rerouted during that time as engineers, towns and developers do their ever expanding thing.

            For example:
            Indian trails were the best “road” system the west had two hundred years ago. But few of those trails exist today and many that were not abandoned were covered over by roads…then changed their path over the landscape to better accommodate wagons…cars…busses…trains…trucks…bridges…etc.

            Another Example…the railroad that used to come to West Yellowstone from Salt Lake City…gone! Poof! It was there when Forrest was a kid…but few of us would be able to chart the bed of the old tracks all the way back to SLC.

            Some roads have changed their course many, many times over two hundred years so that no one knows exactly where the old route precisely charted it’s path…

            Who knows what transportation will be like 100 years from now…roads may not even be necessary…?

            Who could have predicted tractor-trailer rigs careening down a highway at 70 miles an hour two hundred years ago?

            How will new forms of transportation modify what we have today in two hundred years?

            In my opinion, Forrest has considered all of this. Suggesting that a present day road or a trail or nearly anything man-made will be around in a thousand years is highly speculative and I doubt that Forrest would mark his clue on such a man-made device.

            I don’t feel that the same is true for everything on the face of the west. I believe there are some natural and even some man-made forms that will be around for thousands of years…as they already have been…but I doubt that those forms that serve a utilitarian purpose will remain intact as needs and technology change and grow.

          • Dal,
            As long as gravity & money controls what we do here, I think highways for wheeled vehicles will be around for thousands of years for the ones without the money to afford the personal vehicles being able to lift off, hover, float & fly to there destination.

            Yes there is constant maintenance to the infrastructure & mother nature is always changing the landscape at a slow pace most of the time with her spurts here & there.

            One of the reasons I mentioned 191 & probably should have mentioned more of these highways that run in a valley or canyon that were originally created by mother nature by running water thousands if not millions of years ago.

            The path has been laid out for us by mother nature thousands of years ago & we still follow today.

            As far as the evolution of our transportation, I can see the internal combustion engine is on it’s way out & I’m not sure our capacity to develop a small enclosed power source & battery & the materials & the machining for us to be able to eradicate the highway system within a thousand or more years but then again who knows.

            I’m pretty sure highway roads will not be obsolete in 100 years unless there is intervention & influence from more superior races in the universe, which is probably happening today at a lower level. I wonder if Forrest considered that?

            I can hear Esmeralda whining in the background. Or is she low on power steering fluid?

          • Jake,
            Dal pretty much covered most of what I would have responded in.
            I’ll add, I could say the same for many names of places and different languages of those places, and overall locations at any given time.

            This thought / analysis was one of the reasons I have asked two questions in the past;
            1. How many use the ‘down the road’ comment as a piece of information when attempting to solve the poem… surprisingly, from the responses I did get, not many.
            2. Could folks like Russel Osbourne or Joseph Meek of their time periods solve the poem… this one is a bit tricky, but… again, most didn’t think so.

            It seems to me a lot of folks look at this poem as only solvable for this period in time [ 85 -100 years-ish ] or meant for us to solve more than any future generations.

            Oh sure, there’s always historical record keeping that we can research for years to come, but that as well seems just the opposite of the original intent.
            Fenn did say GE [google earth satellite mapping ] and/or a good map as helpful tool… not so much google research.

          • Maybe I should have made myself a little clearer.
            The highways are not going to disappear in thousands of years considering many of them in the Rocky’s have a river running next to them that has been there for hundreds of thousands of years.

            Maybe down the road actually meant just that, down Gallatin Road or a road. Ha!

            Not sure if Meek & Osbourne could possibly solve it seeing a lot of the trails have been converted into roads.

      • Hi Jake, Seeker, and anyone else pondering Fenn’s “most of the places the clues refer to did” answer: here’s another possibility for you to consider. What if Forrest doesn’t know for sure how many of the places existed when he was a kid? Suppose he’s sure that at least 5 of them did, but is uncertain about some of the others. His safest answer would then be “most”, even if in fact all of them did.

        The reason I bring up this wrinkle is that it is not that easy to figure out how or when certain places got their present names, particularly if it was close to a century ago or more. Names of places sometimes change (e.g. Byzantium, Constantinople, Stamboul, Istanbul). Prior to the 1800s, how many of today’s places in Wyoming and Montana even ~had~ names, especially the smaller mountains, lakes or creeks? Famous places like the Firehole or Madison Rivers are easily researched online, but most are very hard to track down.

        • Zap…
          Interesting that you came back with that scenario…and I can follow that line of thinking only so far. In my solve…the places are only “places”…they do not have names. So, for me, that point is moot.
          Are you trying to say that your “places” in your solve all have names that you have deciphered from the poem? If so, I am hopelessly not ever gonna’ catch up, or, catch on to that one…

          • Ken and Zap;

            “Naming” a place, or a place having a “name” is a bit different than being able to describe a place. I can describe the location where a creek meets a river – It may not have an actual name.

            I can describe “The canyon” between wwwh and hoB, but that particular section of the river may not have a name. Some of my “places” actually do have a name, but most do not, and yet I can describe them. Just a thought and my opinion. JDA

          • Hi Ken,

            “In my solve…the places are only “places”…they do not have names. So, for me, that point is moot.”

            Yes, doesn’t sound like an issue for your solve. So you’re going the descriptive route with the clues rather than nominative. Certainly a valid approach if you can make it work.

            “Are you trying to say that your “places” in your solve all have names that you have deciphered from the poem?”

            I’ll borrow Fenn’s words and say that most of the clues in the poem refer to specific places found on maps, most of those places have names, and most of those names have not changed since Forrest was a kid.

          • Ken,
            I believe whole heartedly that the poem can be solved from home with the book and Google Earth, and Maps.
            Forrest himself said, “The person who finds the treasure will have studied the poem over and over, and thought, and analyzed and moved with confidence” and
            “I warned that the path would not be direct for those who had no certainty of the location beforehand, but sure for the one who did.” f
            In my opinion, the correct solve harbors the majority of the clues as named places.
            If you wish to believe me, then I hope this little Christmas gift, will help you to some small extent.

          • Thanks Iron Will !!
            More stuff that I can re-gift to someone in need over this wonderful Holiday Season…And you have yourself a real good Xmas(notice the X…) It is nice to be nice…ain’t it ?

        • Zap,
          You bring up a good consideration, especially if a name of a place or even a thing is involved. But just for the reason you stated… names change… and it’s not uncommon for many to be changed or add, that were not before.

          For me… I need to consider a name [no matter when it came into effect] to be something none changeable or would take an act of Thor’s hammer to do so. One “example” would be; IF no place for the meek refers to the USA and/or possibly the national symbol of the Bald Eagle… it’s highly unlikely these names would change. [ even if they did, ‘very little’ research would be needed, if any at all. [ then again look at the USSR to Russia [line of thinking]
          I dare say the Madison river was always the Madison… How far back do we need to research names of places? How many different culture must be studied for when and why a name was changed? Even right now, is that what we need to do, go back 100 years, a 1000 years to discover the correct name or even language?

          LOL, Do you see my dilemma now to why I don’t care for the idea of names as a reference of a clue.
          But, that’s just me.
          I have looked into what you placed here for consideration … I just have a difficult time thinking this is what fenn wanted the challenge to be… thousand of hours of research of names over different time periods.

          I have to ask these questions for myself, because, I have to wonder how many more times something may change for a given name over time… and my example to this thought is… why didn’t fenn simply say the Rocky Mountains in the first place and not just the mountains N. of SF.

          I like the thought and we need to consider it… and I have in great detail. I lean toward nature things… rivers as water flow and their directions etc. and not so much the name.
          I’ll add this last thought…and… one of the reason I have asked about “details”. Do we need to look at labels on a map or simply look at what the maps show us… not unlike seeing the land from a jet airliner.

          • Seeker~ This part of the equation has been discussed quite a bit in the past…names of places, likelihood of change, past changes etc. etc…
            I took the possibility of the directions/clues having a name right out of the equation. This only made sense given the endless possibilities given the ambiguity of the poem itself. Sure, TTOTC references quite a few place names, but, if the hints were not intentional( I believe that because of that additional word, SUBTLE) then it all comes down to the “wording” in the poem. A GOOD map helped me with the wording and what I THINK the directions are…

          • Ken. as you said… the discussion has been around for awhile. Zaphod referred to names of places as possible clues… where I think the ‘place’ is enough.

            A map is nothing more than a birds-eye view… it shows showing physical features… we add names for convenience, and quick reference to unfamiliarity of the area[s].

            But when fenn said; “C’mon now agent 777, a map is a map. The more detailed maps are most useful if you have the right map, but I’m not sure I needed to tell you that.f ”

            Many like to use the other comment fenn said; “GE and/or a good map” as well.

            Good or correct aside. What details is fenn relaying to?
            To me this is the difference between “names” of places to “details” of a map/places, it show physical features. Yep, a road is a physical feature… but do you need to know the name of it to follow it… or a river, a mountain pass etc. Joseph Meek simply used a higher elevation point, to map out where he wanted to go, even where he came from, by the ‘physical features’ seen from a higher elevation. A map is that higher elevation we see when looking at it.

            IMO. the more detailed the ‘geography’ of the area… the better it is. GE does a very good job of this [especially with zoom in and out capability… for different sizing of an area ] which may help with, not having to look for a bunch of good maps that does, and the possibility for fenns use of “and/or”

            Zap and others have their perspective, and that fine. But like you who gave up names… I see fenn’s comments about ‘detail’ – ‘looking at maps’ – ‘knowledge of geography might help’ etc. all leading to features. Land feature that have been and should be around than any name given.

            All this is; It’s that whittling down process we all are attempting with the after the fact comments in hopes they can assist us.

          • Hi Seeker – I haven’t been able to convince myself to dismiss the use of the names of places as being the clues in the poem because of some of the things f has said, such as:

            “I looked up words and the definitions of words, and I changed them, and went back and rebooted,”

            “I knew where I wanted to hide the treasure chest so it was easy for me to put one foot down, and then step on it, to get to the next foot, that’s what I did. But I changed it over… I don’t know how many times… but I, I looked up the meaning of words…”

            “The clues did not exist when I was a kid but most of the places the clues refer to did. I think they might still exist in 100 years but the geography probably will change before we reach the next millennia. The Rocky Mountains are still moving and associated physical changes will surely have an impact. If you are in the year 3009 it will be more difficult for you to find the treasure.”

            Why did f spend so much time looking up words and changing them, and then rebooting after doing so? Was it only for changing and twisting the description of the geographical features and/or things of his special location based upon him taking one step at a time to get there?

            One could just as well argue that the use of current names of places or things could make it more difficult to identify 1000 years from now because some of the names could be changed due to geographical changes. Perhaps it is the searcher 1000 years from now that would be needing to ask the questions you ask now, because geography would have changed some things causing the names of places or things to have changed.

            I am not saying that the non-name approach is wrong, it has actually given me pause and caused me to think of this whole topic from other perspectives. But I personally have not ruled out the use of actual names at this point and look at them as a very viable possibility.

            One more thought on your comment about the Mountains north of SF. Why didn’t f just say the RM’s instead? My personal opinion is that it is the whole thinking requirement f has built into the search.

            How many people, when they first started (and before f specifically said RM’s) read the ‘mountains north of SF’, thought it must be in northern NM? I see it as his wittiness and taking advantage of peoples lack of thinking and considering. If you think in terms of ideas that pop into your mind when reading ‘mountains north of SF’, you go chasing into the mountains that are right there north of SF.

            If you step back and ask the question about f’s words and what he might mean, you should realize, with a bit of thinking and looking at a map that the ‘mountains north of SF’ are the RM’s, and thus the potential search area goes a lot further north than just the mountains in Northern NM.

            Assuming the TC is not in Northern NM, it is the person who does the thinking that is qualifying them self and being lead to a million $ prize, not the searchers chasing around Northern NM based upon their initial ideas and lack of additional proper thinking.

            This is logical after ‘thinking’ about it; might this one example also reveal an insight into f’s approach for how he wrote the nine clues into the poem?

            Obviously others have previously, and will continue to argue that f said the whole ‘RM’ thing to extend the search area and draw people away from finding the TC. But I think that is just one more thing that a person should really give some ‘thinking’ to – have they been suckered into the thought trap that f laid for them? 🙂

            Just some random thoughts and not necessarily what I personally believe.

          • JCM,
            I like your ending…”Just some random thoughts and not necessarily what I personally believe.”
            But thoughts that give an opportunity for an open discussion, no matter how we perceive the chase.

            I don’t have much time right at the moment, but I would like to hit on words and changes vs. geographical changes [for lack of a better term].

            When fenn made the comment about being more difficult in 3009, the mention was of “movement” of the Rockies. Its physical changes if you will.
            I think this might relate to “precisely” leading a searcher to a 10″sq spot. So even if the movement is involved, that spot would be a little more difficult if we think that the clues are that precise.
            And even though I am not a big advocate for a names of places being clues… lol my two theories that have been posted, both have name usages for at least one clue… just not the name one would see on a map per se.
            So, while I can agree to a very slight extents, of names as a clue… I’m not sure I can go as far as to say the ‘word names’ changing is the reason for it being more difficult in a 1000 years. Only for the simple reason of… ‘research’ to ‘thinking’

            The same can be said in the reverse… names of a 1000 years ago are possibly needed and why it’s difficult now… and more than likely another language to boot… and more research for that as well.

            lol when do we get out and smell the flowers. But I like the discussion. it seems important to help see the poem from two spot light shining instead of one.

          • All. For what it’s worth, I like most of the things Jenny Kile said on her website concerning the sun as a possible Blaze solve and that jives with the blaze not having a distinct facing direction. She also wrote about FF’s story about getting lost in a canyon and using the sun to help guess which way was out. I still think that having an exact opinion of which WWWH location is correct is the key to following the rest of the clues onsite to go quickly to the TC (goldbug story reference) and that those clues are unlikely to change relative significance in 1000 years or more as long as the trout are rising. That’s just me thinkin like Jenny. Hope it helps.

          • Hi Seeker,

            About a week ago we were discussing the pros and cons of the poem clues referring to actual names of places (i.e. nominative) as opposed to simply describing them. You wrote: “Zaphod referred to names of places as possible clues… where I think the ‘place’ is enough.” The reason I disagree with your thought is that map features are like fractals: endlessly repeating at different scales and orientations. I see why you favor a more holistic approach to the clues (e.g. all clues describing different aspects or features of the same, relatively small region) as opposed to “stomping out” the clues point-to-point. If you believe the clues are descriptive and not nominative, then perhaps your idea is that you need to find the one unique place in the Rockies where all 9 descriptions fit. That is a tall order, and indeed you would need a “comprehensive knowledge of geography” to be sure you had found such a spot.

            The main reason I think you’re wrong is that Forrest specified that the answers to the poem’s clues were to be found on maps. But you suggest: “A map is nothing more than a birds-eye view… it shows physical features… we add names for convenience, and quick reference to unfamiliarity of the area[s].” I think for a map to be truly useful to a user unfamiliar with the location, having names is a bit more than just a “convenience”. Imagine trying to drive from Santa Fe to Yellowstone with a road map that has no labels: no highway numbers, no street names, no map scale or indication of which way is north, no city or town names. In other words, a bird’s-eye view of the ground … a viewpoint, by the way, that you as the driver are not privileged to see. A map without labels is basically just a picture.

            “What details is fenn relaying to? To me this is the difference between “names” of places to “details” of a map/places, it show physical features. Yep, a road is a physical feature… but do you need to know the name of it to follow it… or a river, a mountain pass etc.”

            I take it you believe the clues — in conjunction with each other — describe some unique geographic location. But how could Forrest be sure his clues specified just one spot? He doesn’t have comprehensive geographic knowledge of the entire four-state area; no one does. I would say that the tremendous number of different places that thousands of searchers have been willing to commit time and money to investigate speaks to the myriad ways such vague clues can be interpreted. If tens of thousands of “solves” were at one time deemed valid by their creators, then I think you can appreciate the risk of Forrest underestimating how many places could match his clues. Removing the names from the equation, in my opinion, expands the possibilities exponentially.

            “I see fenn’s comments about ‘detail’ – ‘looking at maps’ – ‘knowledge of geography might help’ etc. all leading to features. Land feature that have been and should be around than any name given.”

            So you’re concerned with clue longevity if the names change. This doesn’t bother me in the least. People of the future will know when the poem came out and thus will reason that maps contemporary with that period are the appropriate ones to use.

        • Zap,
          The only way his statement about clues referring to places is that only in my eyes.

          It certainly goes well with using a map or GE.

          As for the places being named or not doesn’t make my brain tingle. None of the places may not have a label, all of the places may but I doubt it.

          Some may say that a named place may be important when it comes to all whats needed is in the poem but I think they will not find his place in the poem or the place to begin.

          I am more focused on which clues in the poem may be places. I will keep “most” as 5-9 clues but will lean towards 8.

    • Ken,
      Many of your thoughts are very reasonable. When it come to the comment about the blaze … I think the blaze word is different in use than most I read about. This thought is one of the very few things I don’t talk about only for the fact it could explain why ” it ” doesn’t point in any direction mentioned… I’ll say this for thought if you’re interested… It may not be an object that is physically touchable but yet still is a ” pointer ” and not so much a marker…yet while the blaze may be a single object, in a word, it could be two ” things ” needed for that to happen.

      Think synergy… The whole is greater than its individual parts line of think.

    • Hey ken,
      This partial comment caught my eye:
      “So, here we are… up the creek…JHLAWH…then…the next destination” […].

      Forrest’s response to a question (excerpt):
      “That’s right joseph, you should start with the first clue and follow the others consecutively to the treasure….”
      http://mysteriouswritings.com/featured-question-with-forrest-talking-in-circles/&gt;

      Two definitions for consecutive:
      “1. following one another in uninterrupted succession or order; successive: six consecutive numbers, such as 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10.
      2. marked by logical sequence.” (dictionary.com)

      A definition for logic:
      “the science that investigates the principles governing correct or reliable inference. ”

      You appear to be applying the first definition for ‘consecutive.’ Is it possible “There’ll be” in the 3rd line of that stanza CAN impact the ‘consecutive’ order of the application of phrases NPUYC and HLAWH (presuming both of these phrases are considered clues)? Asked another way, can (should?) you infer from ‘There will be’ that the consecutive order of those two phrases is actually reversed from the order in which they’re read? IMO (and experience), changing the order in which you consider/apply these two phrases will impact the overall solution and subsequent location/area.

      Just curious.
      Joe

      • Joe…
        My line of thinking is fashioned after the statement that the clues should be followed from the 1st clue and in consecutive order…changing the order has not occurred to me.
        Seeker~ I feel where you are going with the Blaze. I have gone down quite a few prairie dog holes trying to make sense of the facts/statements that we have been given in regards to the blaze. The directional debacle is what stands out the most (that word again). The answer to this quite likely will be a game changer. That is, if someone gets to that correct point….

        • Ken,
          Yep, a possible game changer.

          Even though we still need to get to that point by the prior clues… understanding, or at least, trying to understand with plausible thoughts may need to be considered what it is when the blaze part of the poem presents itself… so there is always a hole to look out for.

          The directional comment, or lack of direction in the answer, is a tricky one to think about. Other after the fact comments, such as “down the road” imo should be considered [ you seem to have considered it as well ].

          Right, wrong or different on our thoughts… it was a good thought out question… and the answer was a bit of a surprise to me, and maybe others as well… if, at first thought the blaze is a marker, line of thinking.

          • Seeker
            you took it to the next level before I even mentioned it…good detective skills. Even 200 years down the road adds another line of thinking that has not been discussed at length…

          • IMO, After you find the blaze (sun) and thereby establish the four compass directions, look quickly down (South on a map or down North if facing South as you always are in the Rocky Mountains when you are facing the sun at midday during any season). This rules out East and West unless you don’t assume time of day is midday. This is why FF says to have a map IMO.

      • They…me
        I love that place ! Not search related for me…but I always remember that photo and think of it when I hear Ansel’s name…
        That is one of the most(that word again) valuable of Fenn’s comments in my notes…and I cannot disregard it at all cost…
        thanks for the thought , 9 clues !

    • Regarding direction –

      I asked the question about which direction a creek faced. IMO, it doesn’t face any direction. Jake answered with the “up” response. IMO, as Fenn might see it, a creek doesn’t face any direction.

      I asked the question to get a conversation going about how the blaze might just be a creek (water source) but no one really took the bait and ran with it. Perhaps I was too subtle.

      To see the blaze, perhaps you have to look down. And, yes Jake, that means it faces up if you want to get technical. And with that in mind, we have a reason to look down.

      As a reminder, everything I share here is an opinion and is almost certainly 100% wrong.

      Scott W.

      • Scott…
        I did not dismiss your thought and actually was thinking that you may have a good point. The logistics of it just did not make sense to me…If one is in/on dry creek bed not paddling up…and you have to look down to see the creek/blaze…how do you then look down for your quest to cease ? Unless…one has to turn around to look back down the creek. He did say something about…he liked climbing up just to look back down(paraphrased).
        Thanks for sharing that idea Scott…maybe you can shed more light on it to help me see it more clearly.

      • Hey Scott,
        The concept that the water doesn’t face a direction could also apply to the trail we just took, right? If water travels and bends… a simple path that follows along side it [or anywhere ] shouldn’t face direction either… we’re just replacing water for dirt… just a thought.

        But lets take it a step further. [ using the path ] We start here, go there, and there and are now at HLAWH… is this the part were we have been ‘smart’ enough to get to? Another words we ‘found’ the end of the blaze or trail… [ what i’m about to suggest for thought is gonna sound strange but ] do we simply look quickly back at where we started? ~ don’t linger to long, you still have to walk back to your starting point [ our quest to cease point ]… and maybe that’s why nobody ‘can not get closer’ than the first two clues… the need to nail down the first clue or stay home… why searchers didn’t understand the significance of where they were [ at the first two clues ].

        look at it this way; This location is special to fenn… he tells you where to start, shows off his “special place” and to take us on a tour of ‘his’ place…
        Now he has you go back go to the chest. In this scenario, the chest is or should be represented by what “in the wood” refers to.

        • I’ll add; you won’t ‘know’ you have that important first clue, until the chest is found. We don’t dwell on the first clue enough… dwell is to reside at, a permanent home. Nothing more permanent the your “final resting place”

          • Hey Seeker, was thinking about his last resting place. Why exactly there? I mean, why not five or ten feet away? Nope, that exact spot. That would mean the chest is a considerable distance from the 8th clue. Enough so you couldn’t see it. This way of thinking would leave one to think that the 9th clue is a distance clue. Whether it be how many steps, feet to walk, whatever, the 9th clue must cover some land.
            My point, one will not be looking down your quest to cease from the blaze. If we use his exact spot, then one will not find the spot at the 7th or 8th clue and then just look down.
            To know the exact spot, because that is what the solver would have from the poem, means the solver can get the spot from home. And, since can’t get farther than the first two clues, then clue 3 is boots on the ground, AND, the solver would have to have coordinates. If we leave with confidence, only coordinates can do that. Now, with coordinates involved, they are not exact. So, coordinates must get someone to the 8th clue. Backup if the blaze is destroyed and all. So this would lead to two X’s. Up to the 8th clue and the actual spot.
            What you think? Because, with an exact spot, then 8 clues would be within lines 1-22, and the 9th clue, being in the wood or title to the gold. sense someone will go into the wood then. It’s the only way I see one being confident when he/she leaves. Coordinates to a spot, walking distance from there to exact spot.
            I mean, he could have hid the chest even 20 feet away from where he did, still the same area, so important to him. He chose exact.

          • Hey Charlie,
            I also have coordinates in one theory, But if that was all we needed to bring us to a spot… why bother with trying to understand the rest of the poem. So I agree with you…more is involved. I also think that, even though clues bring a searcher to a location… example the first two clues… more clues are representing that location as well. It could be 5 or 6 or more that does this to fully get the grasp of why and where.
            So I have to explain my definition of “stomping” [botg] to “hiking”… stomping is point to point physical travel of clues… hiking is getting to the point to finalize what is needed to be done. Hiking is, the certainty beforehand of having an understanding how to finalize the poem when on site. [ understanding all the clues might be needed for this process ]
            I personally don’t think we simply follow [stomping] the clues to a maker and pick up the chest. I think we have something needed to be done to locate the chest, and the reason for the statement; fenn’s comment in part “…It’s not something somebody is going to be able to do on spring break or a Sunday afternoon picnic…”

            I also think the spot is a relatively protected[for lack of a better term] location… with the thought in mind of the elements, his bones to be left, the chest unlock…etc. One of fenn’s comment was, he didn’t want someone prying the chest open with a crowbar and ruining it. This says to me, the place would help keep the chest [ and his bones ] as safe as possible, and not so much, under a bush.

          • Charlie and Seeker;

            You both make very interesting points. For me, and my solve, there is about 200+ feet between my blaze and Forrest’s final resting place for the treasure and himself.

            Why “This” place, and not a place 10′ or 20′ away? I believe that it will be “View” – What did Forrest see from this exact spot?

            I “Believe” that I know what he was able to see, but will not know exactly until I get to that EXACT spot—hopefully this spring.

            Logic got me to the blaze, imagination and a fair bit of research on word usage has gotten me to the last line of the poem, and I HOPE the treasure.

            Thanks to both of you for your thoughts that strengthen my reSOLVE. JDA

  18. I don’t really know all the requirements to “take a radial”, but it seems to me it would require two points to determine. That being the case, depending on where you stand in relation to the blaze it could be any direction. Including the z axis.

    • Tim~”I don’t really know all the requirements to “take a radial”, but it seems to me it would require two points to determine.”
      No special knowledge required, just common sense… good post. Example; a sundial is an object with two components… I’d even go as far as to say three things needed, one of those ‘things’ is just obvious and easily overlooked.

  19. Curious Hobbit,
    How do you manage to get an “antiquated diving bell” into an overhead compartment?
    (And, to stay on topic, do you think it will help to find one of the 9 clues?)
    Thanks!
    Geoff
    “Have flashlight, will travel”

    • Idaho Geoff
      A) ..with great differculty, I imagine

      A) ..It would help more if I found all nine clues, but it seems that I couldn’t find a single one if my life depended on it
      (even after Forrest has broadcasted several of them)
      ..apparently
      🙂

  20. On a scale of one to ten (one being the lowest), how would you rate the accuracy of a 1-10 scale?

  21. In the one big clue ‘the poem” each word is pertinent. He told us who, what, where, when, why and how and once I applied this concept to each line I marked 9 lines with where. Where is obviously about his hiding journey. IMO they are the clues according to Fenn. Then go to a place that fits the first clue and if you can’t find a second clue there, then go to another place that fits the first clue, and so on…Google earth and computer research was all I needed for the first 4 clues. It took boots on the ground to find clue 5 “find the blaze”. I personally included 3 additional clues that tell us how to search making my total clue count on my solve as 12.

  22. Maybe I wasn’t quite clear about figuring out the clues in the poem 1st.

    About a year ago after a couple of failed trips I decided to throw everything out & start fresh. I read the poem without trying to figure anything out except for looking for words and/or phrases in the poem that seemed to ask a question that I had absolutely no answer to.

    No, I am not talking about – So why is it that I must go – he already told us why.
    Not talking about -alone in there- either.
    You can come up with an answer to this by solving the 9 clues & I suggest – in there – is the hidey spot & secret where.
    Yes these were considered in the beginning & weeded out later after step one was completed.

    Step one:
    1 – As I have gone alone in there – WHERE?
    2 – I can keep my secret where – WHERE IS THAT?
    3 – Begin it where warm waters halt – WHERE DO WARM WATERS HALT?
    4 – And take it in the canyon down – WHICH CANYON?
    5 – Put in below the home of Brown – WHERE IS THE HOB?
    6 – From there it’s no place for the meek – FROM WHERE IS NO PLACE FROM MEEK?
    7 – The end is ever drawing nigh – WHERE IS THE END EVER DRAWING NIGH?
    8 – There’ll be no paddle up your creek – WHICH CREEK IS IT?
    9 – Just heavy loads – WHAT ARE HEAVY LOADS?
    10 – and water high – WHAT THE HECK IS WATER HIGH?
    11 – blaze – WHAT IS THE BLAZE?
    12 – So why is it that I must go – WHY MUST YOU GO?

    I ended up with too many clues to figure out & needed to get rid of some which was easy.

    I felt very comfortable eliminating these & that left me with 9 clues to figure out.
    1 – As I have gone alone in there – WHERE THE TREASURE IS
    2 – I can keep my secret where – WHERE THE TREASURE IS
    12 – So why is it that I must go – HE TOLD US WHY HE MUST GO

    Of course there are other ways to figure out what the clues are in the poem like the 9 sentences = 9 clues which the pros: you are using the whole poem & using proper punctuation to establish 9 clues.

    The cons: Using proper punctuation to establish 9 clues & you’re forcing yourself to find a clue in every sentence instead of using the obvious unknown phrases & words.

    This what I end up with:
    1 – Begin it where warm waters halt – WHERE DO WARM WATERS HALT?
    2 – And take it in the canyon down – WHICH CANYON?
    3 – Put in below the home of Brown – WHERE IS THE HOB?
    4 – From there it’s no place for the meek – FROM WHERE IS NO PLACE FROM MEEK?
    5 – The end is ever drawing nigh – WHERE IS THE END EVER DRAWING NIGH?
    6 – There’ll be no paddle up your creek – WHICH CREEK IS IT?
    7 – Just heavy loads – WHAT ARE HEAVY LOADS?
    8 – and water high – WHAT THE HECK IS WATER HIGH?
    9 – blaze – WHAT IS THE BLAZE?

    I truly believe this has to be done 1st before trying to figure out what the clues mean or what/where they are & also believe if you do not find out what words/phrases are the clues in the poem, you don’t have a chance.

    • Jake,
      maybe once Ironman gets back from his trip late next spring he’ll have you over to his ranch and…

      • I don’t want to got to his ranch & shovel horse manure…..
        Ironman better not get wet, he’ll rust.

        • “I don’t want to got to his ranch & shovel horse manure…..”

          No prob there Jake, that appears to be one thing he does quite well himself! 🙂

    • Jake,
      If i said; “walk” what does it mean?
      If I said; “I want to walk” what does it mean?
      If I said; “I want to walk, but I run…” what does it mean?
      or “I want to walk, but I run back” what does it mean?

      In each case walk may seem an action of on foot in-front of the other… but in that last line walk refers to ‘leaving’ “I want to leave, but I run back”

      Narrowing down a sentence or even a stanza loses so much perspective in thought. Does “take it in” to only mean we must travel in? That is only one perspective with very little thought to the entire sentence or stanza or the poem in general.

      A simple reading of line 5, “begin it where” vs. just “begin it” can change the entire meaning of what might be intended. I ‘admire’ and ‘respect’ your effort, but I don’t hold them in ‘high regards’ You might be over simplifying, in the hope, the clues are ‘easily’ straightforwards.

      Walk and walk’s usages don’t also mean walk… only, one foot in front of the other.

      • Seeker,
        This is one way to tackle the poem by a step by step method based upon the poem itself without any influence of the books, statements & such.

        That’s why I chose the term “stripped down” to Zap.

        I’m just sort of fishing to see if anyone else has approached it this way.

        You say: “A simple reading of line 5, “begin it where” vs. just “begin it” can change the entire meaning of what might be intended.”

        If you want to look at it that way, then I would say that any word, phrase, sentence, punctuation, etc.. is not what you intend it to be. This way of thinking pops the 1,000 years to 1 trillion years.

        You may think I’m over simplifying but I say you’re over complicating.

        You can pick any word in the poem & twist it to your liking, not just walk.

        My approach just happens to come up with 9 unknowns. Coincidence?
        The box is above.

        • Jake~”You may think I’m over simplifying but I say you’re over complicating.”
          and
          “My approach just happens to come up with 9 unknowns. Coincidence?”

          First no, not a coincidence, because you made it to be what you want it to be. and left out a lot of the poem with very little or no explain to why. Second, the “over complicating” comment had nothing to do with words, phrases, lines, sentences stanzas etc. in the poem and all to do with external research; head pressure, bible verses, magnetic variations etc… your argument is poor when the words of the poem come into affect as “over” complicating… we were warned the “poem” is difficult [ definition complicated ] Not all that research was meant to difficult.
          “over” complicating is everything else.

          To be honest… right wrong or indifferent, I should apologize because, I use your comments to provoke discussion from others. We [ you and I ] see this challenge of the poem solution so completely opposite… it’s just so dang straight forwards to present different ideas to your postings.

          • Seeker: “First no, not a coincidence, because you made it to be what you want it to be.”

            I made it to be what F stated: 9 clues, no more & no less.
            More searchers should pay more attention to this.

            On your second point, you went off into a tangent & brought up more of F’s quotes which I well aware of.

            You should never apologize for what you think as long as your thoughts do not hurt people in a physical way.

            Ya, our way of getting to the bottom of this is very different but we should go in the direction of how we mange the situation in a logical, analytical manor whether it’s it or isn’t.

          • Anyway Seeker,
            I think we all have something positive to offer here & kinda reminds me of the poem where we have to sift out what works & what doesn’t.

            I like your beginning strategy & believe it’s good for beginners & veterans that have gone astray.

            The bottom line here is we all have something to share whether its useful or not.

            No hard feelings…
            My, your & others comments are no better than any one else.

          • Lugnutz,
            I have never even consider a bible verse, the bible or religion for the poem. The only consideration that would come close was fenn being a spiritual person… which I took to imply the environment… “My church is in the mountains”… This to me is not so much a place ‘of’ worship, as much as, a place ‘to be’ worship.

            Unless 13:52 refers to military time… nope, I don’t know what it is.

          • Seeker –

            If it hasn’t been discussed Matt 13:52 is thr parable of treasures new and old. And as you note it’s also a military time and a directional heading.

            So if riches new and old is a reference to the Bible passage that gives something near 2 o’clock to shoot for.

            In my case I place the clock on the map with the center of the clock on a certain spot and then see if my HoB etc line up along the axis from the center point through the 13:52 spot.

            If this is a clue the trick is to know where to place the center of the clock dial.

          • Lugnutz,
            I like how you aligned the thought, and maybe 6 years ago I would have put some considered the way you presented it…
            But, how do we get around ‘bible verses’ will not assist?

            I might as well put the quote up for a full viewing;

            “Some searchers overrate the complexity of the search. Knowing about head pressures, foot pounds, acre feet, bible verses, Latin, cubic inches, icons, fonts, charts, graphs, formulas, curved lines, magnetic variation, codes, depth meters, riddles, drones or ciphers, will not assist anyone to the treasure location, although those things have been offered as positive solutions. Excellent research materials are TTOTC, Google Earth, and/or a good map.f” 

            While I don’t consider after the fact comments as hints or clues… they are informative, and should help elevate some of the forks in the road.
            Question; is there no other way so see a time that could be involved. A time that lands in a 24hour period?

            Oh! side note; “overate” the complexity of the search.
            Is it just me or does that say the search is complex..? so don’t add to the already complex search we had from the start?

          • Sure this is probably what we might call coincidence. Something I the poem sounds like a Bible verse. The Bible verse sounds like a military time indicator.

            By this standard I would say upwards of 90% of what we discuss here is coincidence of RC Watersing

          • Lugnutz,
            lol I agree 90% on some and 100% on the other… maybe we should call it Miracle-Gro. The term seems to fit all…

    • We totally agree on the who, what where…idea, but my list gives answers and yours gives more questions. IMO

      As I have gone alone in there ————WHO & a vague WHERE
      And with my treasures bold, ————-WHY to hide it
      I can keep my secret where, ————-WHY so we search and have adventure
      And hint of riches new and old.———-WHAT we talk about is money$$
      Begin it where warm waters halt ——–WHERE clue #1
      And take it in the canyon down, ———WHERE clue #2
      Not far, but too far to walk.—————-HOW he did not travel
      Put in below the home of Brown.———-HOW he traveled &WHERE clue #3
      From there it’s no place for the meek, ——HOW we must be careful
      The end is ever drawing nigh;
      There’ll be no paddle up your creek,——–WHERE clue #4
      Just heavy loads and water high. ————–WHERE clue #5
      If you’ve been wise and found the blaze,——WHERE clue #6
      Look quickly down, your quest to cease,——WHERE clue #7
      But tarry scant with marvel gaze,————-WHERE clue #8
      Just take the chest and go in peace.
      So why is it that I must go
      And leave my trove for all to seek?———–WHAT
      The answers I already know,
      I’ve done it tired, and now I’m weak.——-WHY it’s a place close to his heart
      So hear me all and listen good,————–HOW to find it stern words?
      Your effort will be worth the cold.——— WHEN to search
      If you are brave and in the wood———–WHERE clue #9
      I give you title to the gold.——————-WHAT you get $$
      I am sharing my solution to all the clues. Just send me an email at kdkkovach@gmail.com and I will send you a pdf with pictures. As on recipient quoted “Never dismiss anything outright.” It’s a giving time of year.
      Happy Holidays 🙂 

  23. It is my feeling is that after following the clues precisely the person who finds the place where the chest is will have to worry until they find the chest. The place where the treasure chest is seems a contradiction to the poem, and that’s why the treasure has not been found yet. The poem leads to this place and nowhere else, but why is it so hard to believe the treasure is there? Why don’t I just go to it and get it? And why do I feel like a …..? Could it be that I am not trusting the poem enough,and I trust myself more? See, I don’t think the poem is difficult to follow. What is difficult for me is believing what it says,and that the treasure chest is there because it is just not conceivable. This is my opinion.RC.

    • RC, I have to tell you, I thought you were full of …… In fact I was actually quite worried about what I thought you were going to do! I even checked the news of the area I thought you were going to for several days after you said you were going, lol. I was worried about a fellow searcher.
      But after much, much more working of the puzzle, I think you might be spot on. Of course I can’t read your mind so I don’t know for sure where your “exact spot” is but I “feel” pretty certain I know what your “area” is. Just from what you’ve said in the past when you were posting a lot.
      I think we have to trust ourselves, the poem, and the puzzle master to retrieve the prize.
      Of course this is all IMHO. And many think I’m nuts

      • WY G,

        I don’t think ur nuts!! 🙂

        “I think we have to trust ourselves, the poem, and the puzzle master to retrieve the prize.”

        I agree with that! And, in that respect, RC is correct; we are not going to believe where the Poem takes us!

        • And I have to disagree with all three of you. Where the poem takes me is unusual, but it is also one of the most beautiful places that I have ever visited. It matches in every way, the descriptions that Forrest has given us, so why would I not believe it?
          Forrest said, “If I was standing where the treasure chest is, I’d see trees, I’d see mountains, I’d see animals. I’d smell wonderful smells of pine needles, or pinyon nuts, sagebrush—and I know the treasure chest is wet.”
          “Well you’ve asked me a lot of questions and some of them—most of them I answered, a few I haven’t, but I’ve got to tell you—there’s one thing I told you I wish I had not.” F

          I believe that mention of Penyon nuts is what he would like to take back. No Penyon’s in Wyoming (Except a very small spot in SW Wyoning)

          Forrest also said, “And when my tackle box is closed at last and the cadis hatch is gone, I will rest through all of time and space, pillowed down and scented in, with a smile that comes with remembering the special things that brought me to that (this) final place…”f (sic) “

          Both quotes refer to “Scents” as being important – and I think that they are. JDA

          • JD,

            Maybe the “scents” he is referring to, as important, is better illustrated in this statement of his:

            “I wanted people to go out and…and have some adventure, some imagination….use their common senses to try to solve the clues in the Poem.”

            🙂

  24. Lets assume that “Begin” means “You, the searcher, begin”… and you are at a ‘waters halt’ place.
    Does “take it …” mean that you should “take it” in the canyon down”? It could easily mean stay where you are and observe that when/if the waters rise again, gravity will take them down that dry stream bed into that canyon. You, the searcher, haven’t left the ‘waters halt” place.
    Now look around for a HOB. Should you go there? It doesn’t say “You put in…” It could mean you can see a ‘put-in’ place for boaters, or a sewage pipe, or an animal den, or an old hearth etc. Descriptions are not necessarily directions. The tricky writing implies action, but observation may be the key. Focus.

    • Yes lines of poetry do not necessarily end at the physical line end. The full line or thought may be

      Begin it where warers halt and take it in

      As you say go out to a place in the country and enjoy the view. Perhaps that’s not a clue at all.

    • OS, You handed them that one, if any of those who are confused are “wise” enough to appreciate it!

  25. to me it says start where warm waters halt – then you turn take it in when you get to the lower canyon – canyon down till you get to home of brown that’s my opinion

    • I gave the reply that I thought that your post deserved. Did you honestly think that you had posted something profound? JDA

        • JDA – Wow. You’re quite the little, egotistical troll. I don’t read the boards often, but when I do and see asinine comments like yours, it makes me not want to participate.

    • frank, rich, JD, sparrow…
      How about someone repost ff’s comment ‘the words in the poem may seem simple, but I guarantee you they’re not’

      • I can’t find that quote but I will offer my thoughts on how to solve the poem.

        I believe that in order to determine what the nine clues are, we must determine which lines in the poem will physically move us closer along a route. The tricky part of this has to do with grammar.

        As for interpreting the actual 9 clues themselves, I believe one must look at different meanings of words, think out of the box for some and alter your logic/way of thinking.

        For example, the line ‘not far but too far to walk’ cannot mean what it says on the surface. This line drove me nuts for 2 years. It’s a relative term. What I mean is, what’s ‘too far to walk’ is different for everyone. It’s too ambiguous. So it must mean something else. I finally determined that it means ‘south’

        As for other info in the poem like ‘worth the cold’ – these are hints that help with the clues

        As for location (s), it’s all maps. Finding the places that fit exactly without any ambiguity. All above is imo 🙂

        • How can anywhere be too far to walk? I mean the pioneers of the past walked across the country, this happened just a few hundred years ago. I am starting to believe its too far to walk because IT is something that can not be walked.

          A river does not walk its runs!!

          • That’s good thinking, Count… I like it! Only problem I see is: When Forrest said in the NM tourism video: “If I was standing where the treasure chest is… I’d see trees… I’d see mountains… I’d see animals… I’d smell wonderful smells of pine needles or pinyon nuts… And I know the treasure chest is wet.”
            He didn’t mention anything about rivers, lakes, streams… He does say the TC is “wet” though, so I guess we are to interpret that as we choose, but IMO I don’t believe it’s near a river or stream. Possibly a lake…
            But you ask: “How can anywhere be too far to walk?” Well, I have an answer for that within my theory. It makes perfect sense too. Only problem is, I won’t know for certain if I’m correct until I find the chest.
            Although I do like your thought processes on this. 🙂

          • I have been told more than once that my interpretation of this line, “Not far, but too far to walk” is too simple, that Forrest would not give away the answer to a clue – BUT
            in the preface to “Too Far To Walk”. Forrest talks about a float down the Madison River, a float of about 10 miles. He then says, “For me now, it’s just too far to walk.” For me, Forrest has given me the answer – How far is too far to walk? – About 10 miles. It
            works perfectly in my solve. JDA

          • Count-
            I agree there is a riddle in the line, “Not far, but too far to walk.”… that must be unriddled before the following clue can be fully untangled…
            But he doesn’t say it’s to “hard” to walk…or too “impossible” to walk…he say’s it’s too “far” too walk…
            The word “far” is what makes the line such a puzzle.

            There appears to be some introspection in this idea coming from Forrest…
            You might remember that in one of Forrest’s stories, when they were young, Donnie Joe and Forrest walked a LONG way to Bozeman along the Gallatin River one summer.

            In another story Forrest mentions that he’d like to repeat a trip he took alone, walking down the Madison with a rubber raft leashed to him…but now he doesn’t think he could do that trip again…is it too far for him to walk?

            Perhaps Forrest is referring to his own abilities..perhaps it’s too far for Forrest to walk now…not necessarily too far for someone else reading the poem.

            At any rate, I don’t considered that line to be one of the nine clues because it’s not precise enough to be a clue. It doesn’t get me any closer to the treasure like the lines before and after that line. Instead its a hint to the distance down the canyon one must travel to find the HOB.

            In my mind, the line about the canyon gives us a direction on “it” that we should travel and the HOB tells us where to stop following “it”. The line between is not so much a clue as an aside…

            Sort of like if I were giving you directions to the 7/11 I might say take Main Street out of town, not far, to the red light and look for the 7/11 sign.
            The clues are Main Street, red light and 7/11 sign….
            “Not far” is just a helpful hint…not specific enough to be an actual clue…and doesn’t get us any closer to the 7/11 like the other clues do…

          • Dal,
            I like the concept of ‘not far, but too far to walk’ being unable at a certain point in his life for fenn’s.
            I’m wondering how we get around the suggestion don’t go where a 79-80 year old man can’t. [ the age he did hide the chest ].
            Is it an age thing? The size of the canyon? or an overall view of the canyon and hob is all we need to see that is ‘not far’ No need to go beyond that particular point… yet we still have “put in below”… lol.. thinking about all this stuff is going to send those guys in the white coats my way.

            I’m still racking my brain to that comment fenn made during the time Randy went missing. Even thought the comment might have been unrelated to the poem… it still involved the suggestion of that comment posted in fundamental guidelines.

            In the interview his comment was something like..A 79-80 isn’t going up and down the canyon twice in one afternoon carrying a heavy backpack. [ grant you, he was imply that particular canyon at the time. ]

          • Lug;

            It seems as though you just want to argue this A.M., and that is OK.

            I said that I wanted to walk from GGB to SoL – therefore, I HAD to start at GGB didn’t I? We were NOT discussing the route between GGB and SoL.

            Between GGB and SoL, there MAY be several paths. No one has dictated which path I need to take.

            Forrest has dictated a path between wwwh and the TC.
            We as searchers need to follow that path – at least once from our armchair. IF, once we find the location of the TC from our armchair, and we then see a shorter way to get there, certainly nothing compels us to take the longer route.

            Forrest has said something to the effect (paraphrasing) that there is only one way in and out as far as he knows. I believe him. This being the case, it seems to nullify the shorter route theory. Just my opinion Lug JDA

          • JDA,
            I don’t remember F saying anything like that & can’t find the quote.
            I may have missed this one, but I doubt it.
            Although I do think there is only one safe way in & out & have mentioned that on here before.

            OK, who’s got the quote???

          • JD –

            I am not arguing with you in any way. Just thinking out loud. I am thinking that it doesn’t make sense that there is only one place to start. I could start 30 yards from that palace and then still follow the path. If you think you may begin at a convergence of two water ways then you could start on either up stream.

            It just makes me think these are not physical directions. Clues to the location but not directions to walk.

            Lugnutz

          • Isn’t it wonderful how we can all read the same words, and ponder different things. When I read the words, “Begin it there warm waters halt…” That seems like a distinct direction to me. “Begin your quest here – at this spot where warm waters halt.” (sic) Not, begin it 30 yards upstream, or 30 yards downstream from the convergence, but begin it at the exact point where warm waters halt. Maybe I am reading it wrong. Who knows? But it seems pretty clear to me. But that is just me. Lug, you can start it ANY place that you feel the poem tells you to start, and Good Luck to ya. JDA

          • One last thought on this JD. Forrest walked or drove to the spot where he is telling us to begin. He didn’t begin there.

            Therefore it cannot be the beginning spot.

            If you don’t see my logic or don’t agree or don’t want to consider this that’s ok of course.

          • The likelihood is that Forrest only drove/walked to the hiding place, but not the starting point of the poem – he didn’t need to. As to where he began his own journey to hide the treasure, it seems irrelevant to me. That personal starting point is not referenced in the poem, as far as anyone knows, and we have no idea whether he drove from home, a hotel, a meeting place, an airport, or his long lost cousin’s Alaskan cabin. Help me understand what you’re getting at.

          • Vox –

            If its a physical soot It’s an arbitrary starting point that cannot be found.

            So maybe it’s just a place in the poem. Perhaps these are physical directions but rather clues to solve for the location.

          • Lug, I think I see where you’re coming from, and I’d agree to the extent that I don’t think you need to travel to the starting point – it’s more of a marker, if you will. I’d also accept that you cannot pin the starting point down to a few feet square, and in that sense you could describe it as arbitrary. However, it is a real place, IMO, and it is both necessary for the chase and is described in enough detail to help you with pinning down later clues. As, FF has hinted: without it, you’re screwed (nails, screws, who’s quibbling? 🙂 )

            Where I diverge from your line of thinking is that, for me, the clues are not totally abstract, and do not merely describe the end point. They form a cohesive body of information that builds as you progress (whether physically or from your armchair), but also describes a trajectory that can be plotted quite clearly on a (good) map.

          • Hey JDA…it is a wonder how we all perceive things….but do we all take into consideration it is what Forrest would think?

            Very important we di.

            Cheers and a Merry Hannahqwanzmas to you and everyone on the blog.

          • Tim,
            I was thinking about what you said the other day when F came out with the recap of this year.

            Maybe the train station where he would take a shower for 50 cents is his WWWH?

          • Jake –

            New Mexico.

            I have always been New Mexico only until a few months ago when I began opening up to other possible solves and locations. I have been doing a lot of research into the early West including a lot about the earlier explorers in Yellowstone. When I see something that triggers a memory tied to the poem or the book I try to develop a solve there.

            I have a google map that shows all of the locations I am interested in. Lots in New Mexico. Some in YS an WY. A couple in Colorado now including changing my thinking on Brown’s canyon. And a couple as far north as Glacier. Nothing as far west as you may be looking but a couple of ideas are formulating around Anaconda. Here watch this.

            WWWH means train stations, where the steam powered locos literally halt. The old train station in Anaconda has some interesting history and the c.1898 bldg is still in use. I mean golly if Forrest used to get that far northwest and we knew it there’s some beautiful country!

            If Dal would let me post an Armchair Adventure I could show the map and we could all talk about these locations. Locs I have mentioned previously include Ponce De Leon Hot Springs, Bunsen Mountain, Nez Pierce Creek, Thermopolis and Anaconda.

            In my heart of hearts I believe the treasure is in New Mexico. I belive one can drive from Fenn’s home pick up the treasure and be at Fennboree by noon!

          • JDA,
            That Q & A by F & Curtis suggests it’s all BOTG from beginning to end.
            Then again we have other comments by him that suggest a contradiction.

          • Lug;

            Like my GGB to SoL example, the question is “IT”. Begin “IT” where wwh. Begin what? To me the answer is the quest for the TC.

            “Begin your quest for the chest at the spot wwwh” (sic). Sure he walked or drove or flew a helicopter or flying carpet to the starting spot…and it is here, AT THIS SPOT that the quest for the treasure begins…or at least, that is how I read it. You may see it differently, and that is OK. Maybe some other definition fits your solve better. As I said, Good Luck to Ya’. JDA

          • Lug;

            Not to beat a dead horse, but the reason that I am so adamant is because it fits MY solve. (Of course – we all want our solve to be correct) At the point where my Tepid Stream meets another body of water – less than 20′ away, one is on private land. So I HAVE to start at the exact point, or trespass. I think that Forrest knew this, so that is why HE said “Begin it wwwh” – not some place upstream. Can one access my Tepid Stream farther upstream where it is not on private land? YES, but it is not easy, or so I am told. Your spot may, and probably is, completely different.

            JDA

          • Jake;

            You say that in the quote that I was referencing that you see BOTG all the way. Here is the quote:, “I have a question for Mr. Fenn:

            When you hid your treasures, did you take the same path that is described in the poem, or were you able to skip some of the steps because of your familiarity with the area?

            Thank you Curtis

            The clues should be followed in order Curtis. There is no other way to my knowlege.f

            Why do you say BOTG all the way? Just because he said “PATH”? I can say that I drove from San Francisco to NYC, and this is the path that I took… pointing to a red line on a map. Path does not only mean a “foot path”, or deer trail etc.

            Where am I not seeing your BOTG reference? JDA

          • It really doesn’t matter now JDA,
            There’s a few other statements that suggest some of the poem can be figured at home now.

            Unfortunately Curtis was not clear about the question & F responded as such.

        • Hi Rich,

          “… the line ‘not far but too far to walk’ cannot mean what it says on the surface.”

          IMO, you are correct: it’s not a distance, it’s a puzzle. If you have the correct canyon, you can solve the puzzle; if you don’t have the right canyon, this line of the poem is unsolvable (again in my opinion). This is an example of why there are no short-cuts: you have to figure out the starting point, and you have to come up with the right WWWH to determine the right canyon.

          • I used that line as an example to show that, imo, in order to solve the poem, you can’t take most words/lines at face value. And yes you need to find the correct WWH in order to find the correct canyon.

            I’ll throw this out there too…what if the canyon you find goes in more than 2 directions?

          • Rich,
            If I were in a canyon down and came to a fork I would take the one one less travlled and think Mr. Fenn would too, just as Robert Frost wrote about.

          • All IMO!

            Part of the beauty of the poem is the way that it can confirm your choices. Having found the correct WWH, the words “canyon down” might seem a little vague or puzzling (unless you’re a believer in a literal interpretation). However, once you notice the intriguing word play at work here, the answer becomes pretty clear. Then, if you deconstruct the phrases “Not far but too far to walk” and “Put in below the home of Brown” you find that they provide you with a pinpoint-accurate location that lands you precisely at the aforementioned canyon down, thus confirming your choice and giving you a place from which to “put in”. What’s even more satisfying is that it also lands you right below the home of Brown!

            This act of deconstruction sets you up perfectly for the next leg of the journey – which needs to begin from a precise spot to ensure that you can find the blaze.

            As for distance, it’s also possible to wring a rough estimate for the journey from WWH to canyon down from the same words – helpful, but possibly coincidental.

            So, what I’m saying is that the lines of the second stanza contain vitally important information, but that the information is buried fairly deeply and has to be extracted by the application of logic and imagination.

            After that, things become easier – for a while!

            Unfortunately, it seems that the poem is designed so that once one analytical method has been used, you can’t use the same method again for later clues. You need to think and analyze all over again for each waypoint. This may be one of the main reasons why it’s taking all of us so long to reach the goal, and also why FF suggests that the early clues are the most difficult. At the outset, you have no prior information with which to test your theories – you’re building from scratch.

            Theoretically – and this may prove controversial – I believe you could bypass all but the final clue, solve that, and find the treasure. In reality, that would be a Herculean task, and would require an almost magical intuiting of how the poem has been constructed. I think that, for all practical purposes, that possibility can be discounted. What I’ve found is that the gradual and painstaking solving of each clue (accompanied by exploratory and confirmatory trips) constructs a foundation on which later clues build. Each partial solution provides more information and verification for those further down the line.

            This is why I draw a distinction between straight forward and straightforward. “Straight forward,” as two words, implies something that moves in a straight line. I believe that the poem sends us on a journey that involves straight lines. On the other hand, “straightforward” implies something that follows basic and easily discernible rules or is uncomplicated and undemanding. That is the exact opposite of what the poem is, IMO!

            While I don’t wish to elaborate any further (for obvious reasons), hopefully some will be able to see what I’m driving at.

            Merry Christmas!

          • Voxpop,
            In a point to point search, I agree with your overall thoughts. Mainly, as you suggested; “You need to think and analyze all over again for each waypoint.”
            Not only for understanding the significance of the first clue[s] and where they are, but more than likely each clue holds more information that needs observing… and understanding that just a point on a map.

            Still the path should have certainty beforehand, right?
            is that only for the first clue?

          • Seeker, while I’m of the opinion that the starting point can be established with near 100% certainty (due to various confirmations in the poem), it becomes progressively more difficult to be certain as you go along, simply because the opportunity for error grows at each waypoint. However, if I’m right, the confidence level should be pretty high for clue 9, due to the unambiguous method of extracting the final answer. It can’t be 100% because it’s always possible to make a mistake (and boy, have I made some!), but I believe there’s a pattern in the poem for clue 9 that, once discovered, raises confidence levels pretty dramatically!

            BTW, I prefer to talk about a starting point rather than clue one, because there are various methods of defining what a clue is versus a hint – and to be honest, I don’t think clue numbering is all that important.

          • Vox –

            I am wondering if you are able to answer a question for me related to the starting point.

            Why?

            Why did Forrest Fenn choose the starting point that you have identified? He started at his home or maybe a hotel. Why between his starting point and yours is there dead space? Why begin at your starting point and not right at HOB?

            Do you follow me?

            Lugnutz

          • Lugnutz, I’m not sure I follow you completely, but I’ll give it a go. The starting point I’ve identified is very personal to Forrest. I won’t say anymore than that, but it’s discernible from the poem. There is insufficient information to discern HoB without knowing the starting point. It is also important to the overall concept of the Chase that the starting point is where it is. HoB (without the starting point) would remove a valuable chunk of information that fits into the later clue solutions.

            As for starting from his home or a hotel, I have no knowledge of how that might fit into the poem or the overall “big picture”. I really don’t think his home has anything to do with it.

          • Lugnutz and Vox;;

            I am glad that you answered Vox. I wanted to answer, but did not want to steal your thunder.

            My answer is, “The Thrill of the Chase.” Interesting way-points, and added points to ponder.

            If Forrest had started by saying, “Begin it below the home of Brown.”, he would have missed the opportunity to add three or four “Hints”, “Clues” or way-points.

            “Put in” would be missing, an interesting way-point, and point of discussion.

            “Not far, but too far to walk” would have been skipped, another “Hint”,
            “Clue” or way-point – and an interesting point of discussion.

            “And take it in the canyon down” –
            same comments.

            And certainly, “”…Where warm waters halt” would be missing. How many hours, hundreds of hours, or thousands of hours have been spent over this line. It certainly has added to the “Thrills” for me, trying to figure it out.

            Depending on how one counts “Hints”, and “Clues”, by starting at hoB. Forrest would have skipped three or four interesting points of conversation, points of interest, way-points, hints or clues. I am glad that he started where he did, otherwise the poem might have been solved years ago. Just my opinion – JDA

          • JD –

            If I buy your answer, then why not Begin sooner? Fenn certainly could have made the Search either on paper or in nature start Further away.

            And doesn’t it follow that I can begin my search beyond Fenn’s assigned starting point? Why does our search begin where it does and in your solve or any solve is it impossible to complete the search without starting precisely where Fenn prescribes?

            Lugnutz

          • Lug;

            Forrest could have started it sooner, or later. Reality is that he chose to start it where he did. Is Clue #1 the first stanza, or at “Begin it…” That is a whole other question which I will not address now.

            The actual quest, according to most, begins at “Begin it where…” Why did Forrest choose this exact point? Good question.

            In my solve, My “Tepid stream” meets another body of water. Sure, I can go upstream of my “Tepid stream”, but for what purpose? Where “Tepid Stream” begins is not of importance, it is where it “Halts” that is important.

            It is this “halting” spot that Forrest chose for his “Beginning” point – so we start our quest from there. If I want to hike, cross country, from the Golden Gate Bridge, to the Statue of Liberty, it doesn’t matter that I drove from Pocatello to Salt Lake City, and flew to San Francisco, and then rented a car and drove to the Golden Gate Bridge where I started my quest. My “Journey”, which I will chronical, will be from the Golden Gate Bridge to the Statue of Liberty. The other travel is just “fluff” – Not needed for my chronicaling of the quest.

            Hope that I have made at least a bit of sense. JDA

          • Ok well in your example one would not have to go the Golden Gate bridge in order to arrive at the final destination the Statue of Liberty.

            If you know from your solve the the TC is at Statue of Liberty then WWWH at GGB does not matter. It may matter in determining where the TC is but it does not matter in the physical BOTG search.

            In other words if your TC or any TC can be reached in another way than the directions specify they need not be followed beyond the armchair solve.

            Lugnutz

          • NFBTFTW…IMO…an interesting phrase used by an “80 year old man”. I also realize and probably will know when I am 80…everything will be TFTW. DOH!

            :o)

            I also believe it is a reference to a specific distance…”8.25 miles north” of the previous location you are at in the poem….”take IT (road/path) to the canyon down”. We need to take ourselves, the poem, a good map to the next destination….”the canyon down”…..sooo…we are still n a car, and enjoying the scenery we pass, the nature, the wild. Forrest would want us to observe the adventure before we actually embark on the adventure.

            Okay, so now we are at a canyon down…..on a road…because, after all, he did drive to the location, so at this point in the quest, we
            – which is more than likely – attributing the phrase to how an older man who lives for the wilderness…..so his thinking and speaking would be….”down” is relative to moving downward on the road from a higher elevation. I am under a firm belief that this is not a reference to south, because for my solve, you are actually travelling north, but to a lower elevation….to me, this “direction” would only be for this reference of “Dow” that fits the puzzle.

            I know it fits, because I have been to an exact spot that this fits…and to be honest…you probably won’t find many…so this is a good spot that helps eliminate many possble 32nd solves.

            To add to this mystery…my path, though crazy at it seems, has this exact measurement from where you reach the “beginning” of the canyon.
            – “take it in the canyon down” refers to another macro view of your travelling….”TO A CANYON”….which IMO…outs the canyon at an elevation much lower than where Indulgence lies.

            Helping you Zap?

            ;o)

          • Maybe it is not a clue at all and is just a hint . Forrest himself separates clues from hints and it is up to us to figure out which is which .

          • Tim (Zosorocks) –

            IMO, NF, BTFTW isn’t related to a measurement of distance. F has mentioned the more than 8.25 miles north of SF as you noted, he has also talked about walking 91 miles to Bozemen, and wading for about 10 miles in the Madison while on a fishing trip. It’s easy to understand why you or anyone else would attribute a distance after he has made these comments. I think the NF, BTFTW is one of the more challenging clues in the poem.

            I also don’t think the clues before NF, BTFTW are easy to crack either. The poem is not quite as it seems after I spent more time with it.

            If I remember correctly, Zap, indicated that he only had one choice for a canyon in his solution. In going over my route, I only have one choice for a canyon as well. If I didn’t take in the canyon down that is in front of me, it would be like ignoring the fact that the sun rises every day.

            I have asked this question before, but wanted to get your take Tim. Do you see hints in TTOTC? If so, do you see a couple as f stated in the Moby video or do you see many more? I’m in the camp that see many more.

          • Are there hints in TTOTC?…..I think yes….although…IMO….subtle hints

            It has a hint to where to look, specifically….his childhood playground. How big of a playground? Well, that is something we all would like to know.

            You mentioned ff and his 90+ walk. I agree, that this is also a hint. A hint to the region of ff’s playground. Each way is 45+ miles…that is a great parameter to use.

            Remember…TTOTC is about his fondest memories. That tells us the seeker, if you really want an adventure….as in Willy Wonka and his montage….when he brings us along on his adventure. He knows where we are going…we don’t.

            I’m sort of glad you mentioned this, because I am now wondering if TFTW – the cover photo, is his Secret fishinig hole, or if it is the same picture from TTOTC. Is it? I own neither book, so I can’t check.

          • Tim;

            Dal can tell you the complete story, but as I recall, Forrest sent Dal to take a picture of the Madison. Dal looked and looked for just the right spot with his shadow included in the spot. When Dal showed Forrest the photo, Forrest said that the shadow didn’t need to be in the shot, all he wanted was a good photo of the Madison…onto which Forrest had HIS shadow photoshopped onto. Ask Dal, he is a better story teller than am I.

            JDA

          • JDA & Tim-
            The complete write-up of the TFTW “Cover Shot” is in the book review that was written when TFTW came out over three years ago..
            Look here:
            http://dalneitzel.com/2013/08/31/new-book-review/

            Also read the comments…there are only 74 of them on that page…there were questions asked about the cover and I tried to answer them…

            I hope that helps…

          • Tim (Zosorocks) –
            “Are there hints in TTOTC?…..I think yes….although…IMO….subtle hints”

            I do agree that the hints are subtle until you’ve solved a clue. After that, the hints are much more obvious and blatant.

            “It has a hint to where to look, specifically….his childhood playground. How big of a playground? Well, that is something we all would like to know.”

            Forrest didn’t include a lot of stories about his time spent in Yellowstone and the surrounding region by chance. Before TTOTC was introduced he shared some stories with the West Yellowstone News which is now defunct. He also continues to share scrapbooks, and other things about the WY and MT area. IMO that’s where his special place will be found. I know others will debate that and that’s all well and good but f has made it obvious where he wants to rest.

            “You mentioned ff and his 90+ walk. I agree, that this is also a hint. A hint to the region of ff’s playground. Each way is 45+ miles…that is a great parameter to use.”

            While I don’t use distance in my solution, I think when he shared this story with us, it was more evidence that his special spot is much farther north than say NM or CO.

            “I’m sort of glad you mentioned this, because I am now wondering if TFTW – the cover photo, is his Secret fishinig hole, or if it is the same picture from TTOTC. Is it? I own neither book, so I can’t check.”

            The cover dust jackets are different. The TTOTC shows random life shots along with a pile of gold coins. TFTW shows a picture of the Madison River with F’s shadow added after Dal took the photo for him. I’m curious as to why you don’t own either book. As close as you live to Santa Fe, you could pick them up and avoid shipping charges. IMO the books contain hints as f has stated that will help with the clues. They also have some interesting stories. Maybe Santa will place them under your tree this year. 🙂

        • Hi RICH I Think You ARE Wrong ON the not far but too far to walk.Every part of the poam has some thing to do with the solve.

      • “The poem in my book is something that I changed over and over again. When you read the poem it looks like just simple words there. But I guarantee you that I worked on that. I felt like an architect drawing that poem.”

        There are other comments closely related. I think the above is what you were inquiring about.
        Another being on a S.F. podcast ” I looked up words and definition of words and changed them, went back and rebooted… it turned out exactly like I wanted.”

        • I’ll add another part to the S.F podcast that might relates to Rich’s post…
          “it’s not a matter of trying, it’s a matter of thinking…”

      • Here you go theycallme9clues:

        “The poem in my book is something that I changed over and over again. When you read the poem it looks like just, just simple words there. But I guarantee you that I worked on that. I felt like an architect drawing that poem.”

        • I saw this artist on TV once. He started making brush-strokes and splashing paint on a canvas. For the life of me I could not make out what the dude was doing. He continued on and on, and finally he was finished.

          He then turned the painting upside down and this beautiful portrait of Jimi Hendrix appeared. I was absolutely amazed!

          He knew what he was doing the whole time—-he knew how to paint the portrait upside down–it was only when he turned it upside down that you could clearly see what he had created.

          I do believe that Forrest’s poem may be the same thing. It is filled with a lot of simple words——but hidden within those stanzas is an actual map to a treasure. It’s just learning how to properly see that map–that’s the trick.

          • Meant to say only when he turned it right side up that you could see what he had been doing.

          • Also wanted to add that I realize this is obvious–that some kind of map is hidden within the poem. But I believe that the “simple words” are hiding an exquisite piece of architecture—-words within words within words–that once deciphered will show a clear pathway (perhaps through a maze) to the “X” that marks the spot.

          • Sparrow, I’ve seen that Hendrix painting being done on TV also. It was impressive to watch… And he did it so fast!
            You say you think these words/stanzas of the poem make you believe that they will create a map? I’d sure love to see what you’re seeing… Sounds interesting.

          • WiseOne—-
            I do believe that the poem itself is a map. When the poem says “Begin it… ” I believe it is referring to a starting point within the poem itself, at the same time as referring to a physical “place” in the Rockies.

            Somehow, one makes their way through the poem–there is an entry way–a “gate” in, then a route through the poem, and a “gate” back out to the “x” where the treasure is. It may be a maze of sorts.
            I’ve been at this for only a few months now, so it may sound strange, but I do believe that what I am stating may have some credence.
            All the best in your search!

          • Sparrow –

            I appreciate your perspective as a new person that hasn’t heard everything 1000 times before.

            You seem to be listening to people and formulating your ideas.

            With your fresh brain would mind contemplating something that bothers me constantly? Why does Fenn have us start in an arbitrary spot?

            You know what I mean? He started at his home or at a friend’s house or at a hotel or airport. How did he come to pick the place to start? Did he pick the spot where he got out of his car?

            What do you think?

            I am Lugnutz

          • Lugnutz—-

            I don’t think the place to start is arbitrary— unless I am misunderstanding you. I believe “where warm waters halt” is an exact location (at least within the poem itself it is). It is where you “begin”.
            I believe “it” may be a pathway through the poem itself if you catch my drift.
            Maybe you can clarify what you mean a bit.
            All the best! 🙂

      • I think Seeker posted this about 500 times in the last week:
        Moby video
        (14:50) “The poem in my book, is something that I changed over & over again, when you read the poem it looks just like simple words there, but I guarantee you, I worked on that thing, I felt like an architect drawing that poem.”

        “when you read the poem it looks just like simple words there”
        Yes, I agree most of the words are simple.

        “but I guarantee you,”
        Like all good salesmen say, they guarantee it even though it’s not in the paperwork.

        “I worked on that thing”
        No crap, really? I didn’t know that.

        “I felt like an architect drawing that poem.”
        Anyone can be an architect & really is an architect in there own life. Think about it.

        He’s a great salesman, no doubt & his paintings didn’t sell themselves.
        People were buying a him along with the painting.

        Searchers have taken his/this statement & stretched it to what they think IMO.

        • Hi Jake — sorry for my redundant post about that transcript from the book store video. It does indeed come up a lot. But I think it’s a quote that people should pay closer attention to. Forrest is giving a “tell” that the poem with its deceptively simple words was carefully crafted, and the architectural reference is thus quite fitting in my opinion.

          • Your post was not redundant at all…really…It has taken about a thousand times for that video to get into my head in proper order. Thanks to some folks here that are quick w/ the draw…it makes it stick. Honestly…I could hear it another 1000 times and still not complain/question it. And yes, it (this video) is often disregarded…

          • Also…references to any of The Fenn’s comments that are posted repeatedly, have plucked me out of numerous prairie dog holes over the years. just sayin’….

        • LoL… You crack me up Jake… You want the words in the poem to be completely literal but fenn’s comments twisted like a worm on a hook.

          Ever wonder why the first stanza is past tense… But stanza two seems present tense? Then in stanza four we’re right back to past tense… Maybe begin it where keeps all those stanzas in past tense, just like there and where are used to start the poem.

          LoL… You must have been a blast to play with as a kid…’ that’s not a gun, that’s your finger.’
          You do know when you were told to put on clean underwear In-case your in an accident… That wasn’t literal either, right?
          Crack me up…

          • Seeker,
            I love to watch searchers put words in F’s mouth & finish his statements as you do.

            I get a kick out of it & I’m sure F does as well. He’s got most of you right in his pocket.

            Funny how folks don’t know what he actually said & then fill in the rest.

          • So Jake, when you say; ““when you read the poem it looks just like simple words there”
            Yes, I agree most of the words are simple.”

            Your saying fenn used simple word to be completely literal in the simplest of meanings or usages and that is what fenn meant by that comment… Sure why not, and If we’re all good Santa will bring us exactly what we want.. lol. How about when fenn stated; many don’t see it the way he does… is that supposed to mean many do see it exactly the way he does?

            I can’t believe I’m actually having this conversation, other than the fact, I’m having too much fun with it.
            If a tree falls in the forest and no one is around to hear it, does it make a sound…

          • Seeker,
            What words do you see in the poem that are not simple?
            Tarry?
            Scant?
            Seek?
            Marvel?
            Drawing?
            You tell me which words are not simple seeing you imply you know.
            Can you come up with a list & post it here so I can catch your drift???

            F never mentioned literal.

            I don’t believe in Santa or Christmas for that matter. I also don’t believe in fairy tales. I know I am out numbered here but really don’t care on this moot point.

            You’re having this conversation for entertainment just like F said.

            I’m glad to see you didn’t read too much into that statement.

          • Jake ~ “You tell me which words are not simple seeing you imply you know.”

            I’m not imply anything at all…especially that I know anything at all. The fact is only what is read in the after the fact comment… you imply… the opposite.

            You ask me which words I think are not simple?
            Pretty much all of them… I think the poem, at the end of the solution, will be straightforwards in understanding and in all honestly… I don’t think straightforwards was meant as a tool to solve the poem as meaning, simple and easy and literally taken at face value.

            “if it was easy anyone could do it”
            “it’s difficult but not impossible”
            Not my words or even my opinion… fenn’s words. So when the man say; they look like simple words but he guarantees he work on them… and adding another comment… he took 15 years to make it work.

            I find the concept that fenn meant [that comment] the words to be simple… well …that’s funny as heck. Not after, hearing and reading all the other comments on the same subject. We’re supposed to be of logical minds, right?

          • Seeker: “You ask me which words I think are not simple?
            Pretty much all of them”

            So, you think all of the words in the poem are not simple.
            Good luck with that Mr.

            I don’t recall where F said you need a dictionary, etymology, Latin etc…
            Most of the words in the poem have Latin roots.

            The furthest I would go back to using definitions & that would only be a few words in the poem like – tarry – scant etc… would the 1800’s or around the time of Journal Of A Trapper.

            You say: “I’m not imply anything at all”.

            That’s a heck of a lot of typing while not implying anything at all???
            LOL

          • Seeker,
            I believe in Santa & would like to give you the gift to make choices.

            I will call him tonight & arrange your gift & hope you will make good use of it.

            Having all these questions & choices without making a choice must be like having millions of dollars & not being able to spend it.

          • parry…riposte. parry…riposte. somebody…please, try a different move. Oh, what’s the foot tapping one..?
            If you two put your minds in the same pool…you might come up with some original stuff and really get some work done…but , heck…have fun.

          • Jake.
            You even misunderstand 90% of my questions and the reason for them… they are for implied thought, critical thinking… do you think I’m hoping someone else will give me a solve?

            Example, why did fenn say Mountains N. of S.F and not the RM’s at first? Its not the matter of hoping someone will magically have the answer… it purely a conversation of thought starter. You do realize each day new searchers are popping in and some may actually want to talk about even if you don’t. Or maybe some of the more seasoned searchers, who have backed away from posting, would like to reengage with different thought from those of years back… maybe even using some up to date fenn’s comments to explain a new thought.

          • Seeker –

            “Example, why did fenn say Mountains N. of S.F and not the RM’s at first?”

            I’ve given your question a lot of thought and have come to the decision that I will share my thoughts on that question. 🙂

            When f originally said “in the mountains north of Santa Fe,” I believe he assumed that searchers who would accept his challenge to go out an explore would not limit themselves by the northern border of NM. After noticing that very few searchers would dare consider that the mountains continue well beyond the northern NM border he felt like he needed to nudge everyone to consider the – BIGGER – picture. I think we are all guilty of setting parameters that will limit the outcome and many searchers early on may have assumed that since he lives in Santa Fe, the chest would not be placed too far from that point. IMO they sorely underestimated what f created.

            Whether that is right or wrong, it does seem like a very logical reason why he would then add “the RM’s north of Santa Fe,” comment.

            Do you have any thoughts as to why f added Rocky Mountains?

          • Hearmeall
            I have had a few thoughts on why RM’s were not originally mentioned.
            1. The chest is in NM [ too simple for my liking, and you explain it well ]
            2. It just doesn’t matter
            3. [ I’ll skip over the others ] I think we need to know he meant the RM’s, but more importantly the full “range”.
            Is this why the major clue in tftw turned out to be Canada unintentionally overlooked? {see how I did that Jake..lol} If Canada is not in the running for ‘where the chest lays in wait’… why such a big deal about it missing from the map… a clue gets us closer, right?
            Then again, I still don’t know what fenn truly means by a clue. Everything has been presented as a clue… even the useless clues.
            Both posting of two of my theories hold the RM’s range as an important possibility. I also thing the CD is involved and the two go hand in hand.

            fenn’s church is in the mountains, I’m working on the assumption the poem is more about the mountains then fenn himself… his dreams and fantasies are there. The big picture affect, imo is the range. I’ll add another thought… I don’t think the places the clues refer to are single places but a joining of them.

  26. JDA – if my comment was profound or not to you that’s ok but smart comments like this is what is keeping a lot of people from commenting on the blog that’s why I don’t comment much any more

    • OS2,
      I have read this a few times… not exactly sure what your saying or asking… but I’m thinking, so that’s good.
      A simple, quick answer is no. I would think down to up would be more accurate. Foundation first line of thinking. So to with the way I see the poem [ most of the time anyways ]. But then again, the drawing is 2D but the result is 3D in the drawing.
      I did say ya having me thinking, right? Maybe more pondering is needed on my side.

      • U got it seeker. What was the quote… the clues must be followed in consecutive order — or — they are in consecutive order in the poem? There could easily be an architectural difference in the layout of the poem … like the electrical & plumbing layouts in a blueprint for a multi storied structure. Hope not, that would be discouraging. But a 1000 years of analysis was planned into this hunt, so….

        • OS2,
          Why would it be discouraging?
          Besides we have been told to nail down the first “clue” and the “clues” are in consecutive order… we also have been told… “start at the beginning”and “know where to start.”
          Simple, logical thinking might say, stanza 5 at the question. “why is it I must go and leave my trove for all to seek? The basic foundation of the reason this all “began”

          • Hi Seeker, Discouraging because mystery wants an answer. I see your dialectical trick though… anytime someone makes a direct statement, you challenge with an oppositional question. (I hold my tongue here.)

            On that “nail down” thing… the literal beneath the figurative nailing suggests “wood”… the only “wood” in the poem is in stanza 6…. the first clue. IMO.

          • OS2 ~ ” I see your dialectical trick though…”

            Thank for noticing and understanding. Just a conversational dissecting of thoughts usage. We all do it in our own heads [ at least we should ] I place it in writing for that reason.

            lol, I’m about to do the same with Tm’s comment below… I hope he understand as well.

    • OS2
      The answer to your question is, NO…It goes something like this:
      Design, Foundation, Structure, Building Exterior & Interior…

      But the one thing that it seems most are forgetting is, in build and design one thing will “always” follow another in order of design. Get out of place (order) and the whole design FAILS…
      Timothy…IMHO
      Happy Holidays to ALL…

      • Tim,
        Isn’t the design the full outcome of the drawing/blueprint? There is the thought/idea of the project, first and foremost… but the foundation of the drawing / design is the project’s cornerstone to the intended outcome.
        Wouldn’t the poem { in this case} be considered the design “we” build from?
        But fenn had to ‘start’ with the foundation first in the design… That “need to start at the beginning” line of thinking.

        I guess we could be saying the same thing. because we need to follow the design… but we can’t start at the peak.

      • Timothy, I think you are talking about an architects system for organizing his work load, not the contractor’s need to interpret the blue lines on the pages. I may have misunderstood you.

      • Hey guys…
        Just another consideration here…As someone very familiar w/ blueprints/design…I find it interesting that Fenn inferred that he felt like an Architect while writing the poem. I immediately went into over drive with all of the possibilities of what he meant by this.
        Was he speaking of the physical design of the poem/stanzas? Was he speaking of the concept that he was trying to build with his poem? What was it? In the end…for me…I decided that if I just took the basic parameters of Architectural Design and started with a basic concept/a picture of what the poem meant. As a builder I know that a good foundation makes a good house/structure… and so on. Those that like to change the stanzas around like this idea because it makes sense that the bottom stanzas can now move into more important meaning…is that true? I don’t think that is how it works but could be for literal purposes.
        At first…my structure/concept of the Poem appeared to be a mangled looking thing that perhaps the three stooges might have built(one of my favorite episodes). As time has passed and many sketches later, my conceptual drawing of the poem has begun to evolve into an actual piece of art that…probably is just a figment of my own imagination….Ha !

        • Ken,
          Those are good questions to be asked.
          In one of my above comments stanza 5 “seems” to be the “place” in the poem to start… because it appears to be the beginning of the whole concept of the Challenge. This doesn’t change the possibility that 9 clues could be 9 lines as many have spelled out in their thoughts… the clues would still be in consecutive order. But the vital info for understand that ‘ blueprint ‘ if you will, may be in the other stanzas leading to the clues that ‘get us closer’

          You mentioned, “Those that like to change the stanzas around like this idea because it makes sense that the bottom stanzas can now move into more important meaning…is that true? I don’t think that is how it works but could be for literal purposes.”

          But does it move anything, to read it this way? It might be as simple as “know where to start” vs. “Begin it…”
          If reading the poem from the perspective of past and present… the order might look like this;
          Start in present tense stanza 5 & 6,
          moving to past tense stanza 1, and begin it “where” might take on a new perspective of past tense as where in time… not unlike… once upon a time [or past tense of there and where in stanza 1] leaving stanzas 1 2 3 in a past tense reading [ where most think it’s only present tense ] and stanza 4 brings it to present tense for us. The full [circle] picture affect, the big picture effect.
          This does imply a place to start in the poem, and give the first clue [ possibly wwh ] as the “beginning of the clues.”
          But most important to the thought / theory is… NO excuses for filler stanzas, closing stanzas, introduction stanza… each stanza is now just as important as the stanzas that might hold the 9 clues.

          You also asked about a physical structure to the poem’s design. I can see that as well… Most readers dismiss the capital letters use in the beginning of each line as poetic writing… yet we have B in brown capitalize at the “end” of a sentence.

          WhatIF brown is an indicator for the other capital letter to be used… letters that are normal to a structure of a poem… but not this particular poem written in fenn’s challenge.

          Just question’s and possibilities.

          • Seeker…
            All of the things I said above were alluding to one concept that I believe is most basic in terms of how an architect operates….the concept of an overall picture of sorts…that needs to be portrayed in a fashion that tells/shows…precisely how to build it; whatever that is…

          • I believe that the poem, as written, stanzas 1, 2, 3, etc… are in the necessary order that they should be left.

        • I got that from your, I don’t think it’s true line. I just have certain comments of fenn’s on my mind… the blogging get others perspective of my thoughts… a throw at the wall and see what stick, line of thinking.
          Comments like;
          Need to know where to start.
          Need to start at the beginning.
          Many don’t see it the way I [fenn] does.
          Down the road thoughts.[ over a large expansion of time ].
          There are many wwh… over simplify the clues.
          Ignore the first clue, don’t dwell enough on the first clue, need to nail that clue down or “stay home.”

          Interesting enough… nail down the first clue seems to imply… no need to go botg. It would seem IF wwwh was simply a lake, waterfall, merging rivers, hot-springs… why stay home if we decipher it?
          What is needed of the first clue to be “nailed down” other than it’s a “clue”?

          What is that “important possibility”?

          Others are very confident they have that puppy leashed… even gave themselves a club name, and love to repeat ‘they got that one nailed down’… return to it dozens of times.
          lol.. and all in completely different locations

          I’m still attempting to understand, How that could be?
          So I’m still chuggin along with those comments and more. We’re missing something…I mean, “I’m” missing something.

      • Good topic. In my opinion, the issue is that he said that once done with the poem he counted the clues and came up with the 9, he didn’t structure the poem around 9 clues, that was just the outcome. How many of the 9 clues point to the 10×10 spot, just the last one? If that is the case then the foundation remains unknown until found.

        Apparently the poem is airtight and there is no way into it other than the beginning. That was his design and he has repeated the same many times, no shortcuts, don’t worry about the blaze, don’t start in the middle and look at the big picture.

        • Oz…
          The idea that the # of clues was not predetermined before the poem was complete seems to elude many. I felt early on that, 9, the number nine, may have had some mysterious significance. Maybe it does and I am just doomed, like many…After some time I began to trust that the comments Fenn made in regards to solving the poem were probably the best pointers we all were ever going to get. Straight from the source…sure…some of his off handed remarks are fairly obvious as to serious or not. My gut tells me that as a conceptual set of directions, each clue leads to the next…until the final one? Very good question…

          • There was a question to ff regarding to which is the most important clue or something along those lines and he answered ‘the last one’. I wondered for a while if the poem had more than one understanding to his knowledge but I abandoned that idea. We must nail the first and progress in order to the very last one. Can someone get to it with 8 clues?

            Someone asked him if they could figure out some of the later clues can they still get it and he said something like there is a small chance but highly improbable or more difficult.

        • It is a good topic Oz ~ jump in, It’s an oldie but a goodie. Ken just mentioned; “some of his off handed remarks are fairly obvious as to serious or not.”

          LoL, are they really? The poem has us stumped, Maybe those comments are so serious we overlook the what if with them as well. No, I’m not something like ‘oh fenn mentioned Yellowstone again, it must be…’

          But one example “might be” If you don’t know where you’re going an trail / path will lead you there [paraphrasing].

          What If that was a very accurate comment? Yet, seemingly obvious that if one doesn’t know, it doesn’t matter where you go.

          I’ll use one of my thoughts as an example… the CD… If the poem has connections to the CD and other clues point to the CD… could the above have some truth to the comment?

          I’ll add who doesn’t dwell enough or ignore wwh? Could dwell be a helpful piece to consider a what if might be related to the first clue.

          The after the fact comments are not as easily understood imo. lol the hoB comment is a perfect example of how it’s not so easy… loco and I had that discussion a couple time..lol

          • I mean explicitly his directional/advisory comments…one foot in front other…overrating complexity, read poem over and over, nail down first clue, etc. etc. To me, if I take them for what they basically mean…without putting the fluff to it…they (his comments/advice) seem fairly “straight forward” to me. Maybe I am just too naïve…and want it to be simple.

          • Wanting to be simple? I don’t get that from your comments… you have added how you could see it from other angles… that is not wanting, but attempting to understand.
            I mean, some of these comments are years old that we all have thought about.

            But just like the first two clues comment, other things have been stated that might help with some clarity for ‘a thought’ on our part. Fenn is a very patient person, 20 years of preparing and waiting to execute his challenge shows that. The problem with the first two clues comment is … we don’t know if it was the year he state it, or was those searchers e-mails from 2010?
            The oldest one I found was in ‘forrest gets mail’ But since then, subtle variances of the comment had different information to think about.

          • Seeker…
            The concept for my solve evolves from day to day…Some days I see nothing…some days I see/find something new that helps me get a little further along on the path that I have chosen. After all, that is how it goes with something like this. Each searcher has their own take on things. I have never heard one comment that identifies the first clue the way I do. Does that make mine better…not a chance. Does that make mine worse…who knows ? Forrest has stated that you won’t know if you have the first clue correct until you find the treasure. I can see that scenario plain as day. My concept of the correct solve is pretty out there in comparison to the norm. Like others, I am excited; but, I keep that in check so that I can explore different avenues. And no, I am not going to be invading someone’s ranch somewhere in the west because the owners may have known Fenn or babysat Tesuque for the weekend back in ’78. I think things may be a little more complex( yet very subtle) than a little word association game.

          • Seeker,

            Regarding fenns’ comments, I think he is serious, no subterfuge. We have no reason to believe otherwise, still I take them very carefully because he words everything in a way that sometimes add more confusion to the equation.

          • Oz10,

            So true, so true. And Dal tries to warn ALL who would pick up Fenn’s gauntlet:

            “More caution! Forrest himself is a master of the double entendre. He chooses his words very deliberately……… He specializes in letting you believe something he never said.”

            Merry Christmas to ALL!!!

  27. Here’s my interpretation of the poem;
    Begin it where warm waters halt – this is not related to rivers, or hot springs – its telling you to start where warms waters halt. My interpretation of this- ~ No warm waters at this point.
    Take it in the Canyon Down – Take it in; could this be the road? Not down the Canyon but in the Canyon Down.
    Not far but too Far to Walk – Telling us, follow the road – (take it in.) Take the road in the Canyon. Must drive to the Put In.

  28. After reading recent comments, I thought I would note, that I believe in Santa (and in fact I am Santa, as are many others).
    Also, IMO, the first clue is:
    Begin it where warm waters halt And take it in the canyon down,
    and, IMO, the second clue is:
    Not far, but too far to walk.
    Here, the first clue is a vector, and with the second clue being a distance, the result is a particular location for clue 1, and a particular location for clue 2.
    Of course, since we don’t yet have TC, this is opinion.
    Merry Christmas, everyone, and Happy Holidays!
    Geoff
    “Have flashlight, will travel”

  29. The poem has been calculated from beginning to end. Everything about it is important. The clues are what the clues are. My opinion of what the clues are is not important. What is important is that I follow exactly what it is saying, and not what I think it is saying. The beginning is the beginning and not what I think it is. The poem is simple and it is understandable. Now, I need to get out of my own way, solve it, and believe it no matter what. This is my opinion. RC.

  30. “Begin it where very warm waters halt”
    “Putin below the home of brown”

    Menachem Begin and Vladimir Putin are both in the poem. 🙂

  31. 4 cards and a joker–5 perfect solves and lines–like wagon wheel spokes
    match 4–code of the west. Your solve might not be wrong–just not join with others. Might ff be not only trying to get us out –but together as well…MARY CHRISTMAS

  32. I have been absent from the forums for a few days, delving into a new direction of thinking. Upon my return, I have read many of the new posts and some of them seem to jive with what my new direction was.

    “What surprises me a little is that nobody to my uncertain knowledge has analyzed one important possibility related to the winning solve.”

    This Forrest quote has always stuck in my mind. It always seemed to me like he was telling us nobody is thinking about this thing the right way. Almost like everyone was making the same mistake in trying to solve the poem. I read a post prior to typing this by I believe Lug, who talked about the clues not being part of a physical path. This I believe could be the mistake everyone has made.

    I have seen may people talk about there being two layers to the poem, and many people seem to also think the photos from the book are hints. What I propose is that these two things could be true at least in part.

    Perhaps there are two layers to the poem: 1. the poem describes a generic path to the treasure, 2. the clues match up to something else outside the poem and are not on a physical path but another path none the less. These both end at the same point, where you find the treasure.

    This is where the photos come in. What if the clues match up to a series of photos, which although not on the physical path to the treasure make up the path to the treasure as well.

    Forrest mentioned Google Earth at one point. I found that to be kind of odd. Seems like an impractical tool to use in this instance since most areas are not labeled on GE, and for our purposes even with the ability to zoom in do not seem to provide usable detail. I mean most of the creeks and rivers you cannot see through the trees. You certainly cant really make out a waterfall on here. However, GE does have something you don’t get on any maps… photos.

    This is where things really got interesting for me. I dropped pins on photos that seemed relevant during my 20+ attempts at solves, so I started to go back and look through the photos I had pinned. Suddenly I realized several of them had been posted by the same person. I clicked the name and traveled to the Panoramio account for the person and started looking through the photos.

    http://www.panoramio.com/user/4902627?photo_page=4

    First what caught my eye was the photo title “La Madero” If you paste the description into google translate, it talks about a cross painted on the wall here, and also about a dispute over land rights and some rich person with a false TITLE. I researched a little more and it seems like this was some sort of church site. “My church is in the mountains.” Hmmmm… curiously this photo was posted in October of 2010.

    If you look down at the bottom of the page, there are more interesting photos. Torreón y el Pueblo Viejo – Torreon is a KEEP, and an OLD pueblo.
    The photo about the “Virgen Honey”, one synonym for which is NEW. “La Copetona” – found something about a BROWN crested flycatcher. “Piedra de Cajete” photo, it looks like a depression in the stone on top of a hill, and in the description the person says they wished it had rained before they took the photo, possibly because this area usually holds water after a rain. “WATER HIGH?”

    Several of these photos, including the La Madero one are very close to the Rio Puerco – (Sow, as in female pig, but could be twisted into sow as in seeds, which sow in instances can be a synonym to sprinkled). Sow which sounds like So as in “So hear me all…”

    What do you guys think??

    • @Humble Pi: I recognize quite a few of these photo locations. Intriguing, and I think you are on to something. Wait, never mind. We all know New Mexico has been searched to exhaustion; every square mile and mile square has been gone over with a fine tooth comb. Call EC…or EC call home.

      • Sandy,

        Seeming as 2 goups have been in very close proximity to the chest in a search area of all of the Rocky Mountains. Most likely this would occur in an area with a higher proportion of searchers. But thanks for your very insightful post.

        • @Humble Pi – I agree. I think there are many reasons that the treasure may be hidden in New Mexico, possibly within close proximity to where these photos/pins are dropped. I think people are mistaken if they aren’t willing to consider the Spanish/colloquial meanings of name places and phrases within the poem. No matter what state they are searching. I live in Durango CO, quite possibly the coolest town in the West, and I wish I thought it was closer to home. I may take a peek over at Crow Canyon again…those were great photos. I wasn’t kidding when I said you should try to contact E.C. Waters. You are on the same track, in the same region. As am I. Good luck!

    • Humble…
      I liked the concept a lot. Early on I went down that road and found some interesting anomalies as well. I soon realized that if I took Fenn’s advice and thought about “…down the road…1000 years etc.” that quite likely photo pins on “Google Earth” would not even exist anymore. I also realized that that approach only works with Google Earth and excludes a good map. This idea was a good past time for one whole winter and I had great fun with it. I like it…but am now skeptical for my own reasons. Good luck to you…

      • Ken,

        I wasn’t so enamored with the idea that this particular photo set was the key, but the idea that perhaps the clues he is describing may be correlated to something external to the chase. 100 years from now, Catcher in the Rye won’t fade from being known. The guy is an avid reader, maybe he traveled a famous journey from a great novel, similar to how he went to see the sights one of the artists he wrote about did. Maybe someone did a series of paintings and these are what the clues describe.

        • Yes Humble… I got that from what you said…and you may be correct to a certain extent. Good luck to you and have a great Holiday Season !

  33. I have missed all of you. It has been awhile. I took some time off after my last search this summer (crow pie for me too) so I could work on getting one of my kiddo’s into a special school for autism. I didn’t think I would return anytime soon, but my family unfortunately last week had to bury my 25 year old nephew who was also autistic. Other than my own kids, he was the light of my life and now that I am a father of an autistic child, he was like my own child and now my world has been torn apart and destroyed. I haven’t been able to concentrate on anything personal or professional. Working in the ED where I have had my nephew as a patient has been extremely emotional.
    The other day I turned the blogs back on in an attempt to get my mind off of things and block the pain. It has certainly helped. I know the odds of me finding the treasure are stacked against me, but for now, it keeps me occupied and motivated. Perhaps if I do find it, I will lay to rest some of my nephews ashes and then take care of his mother for him. I think he would like that.

    • Im sorry to here about your loss Med… The Chase can be a great escape… It’s nice to see you around again… take care…

    • I am very sorry for your loss Med. You are a strong man, and you will survive. Continue helping others the way that you have in the past, and it will come back to you in time.

      JDA

    • There are no words that I can say Med_evac to ease the pain, but i will say that my prayers are with you and your family…. someday you’ll meet him again.
      Have faith and stay strong… merry christmas to you and your family ……. God Bless

      Until next time… see ya my friend

    • Med-evac, I echo the sentiments of the above comments. There are no words I can say to ease the pain. I know that sometimes the hardest times to get through are those times that bring back the sweetest memories. Just know that there are friends out here that are holding you in their thoughts and prayers. *hugs*
      Happy Holidays. May you find some of the peace and love that the season brings.

    • Welcome back to the Chase Med-evac. I can understand and appreciate your pain and the challenges you face, they are not easy; especially death of someone who is like your own child.

      My youngest son, who we adopted, has autism and fetal alcohol effects. We have him in a special school for autism and it has been so good for him. I hope your efforts are rewarded in getting your child into the school. In addition, we have been testing two of our other kids (not adopted) and it is looking like they are on the autism spectrum as well. A bit of a tough pill to swallow.

      And now those nine clues… what is it about that first clue that I need to figure out, but am missing?

      Time has a way of healing deep wounds, or is it just numbing the pain; but the sun always comes up tomorrow bring new opportunities to love and have new experiences. There is a mountain peak I like to look at on occasion and ponder about, wondering how it came to be and what it has seen in its time. That always seems to give me perspective and kind of helps reset my outlook when weighed down with the difficulties and stresses that come and go in life.

      Best wishes this Christmas and for the coming year. If you ever need to bounce the struggles of autism around, I am happy to oblige and tackle the challenges.

  34. (Sub)
    Merry Christmas and Happy New Years to all.
    I took a little break from blog, focused on work and family.
    Over the holiday’s I’ve been reading the Journal of a Trapper. I encourage all to read it, It’s given me a new focus.
    It’s good to see not much has changed here on the blogs, somehow JD, whom i think is an awesome guy, continues to bring out the ire of others.

  35. Zap, I copied this and brought it down… the balloon above must have 25 plus comments, and your post covered it well.
    Zaphod73941 on December 26, 2016 at 7:56 pm said:

    Hi Seeker,

    About a week ago we were discussing the pros and cons of the poem clues referring to actual names of places (i.e. nominative) as opposed to simply describing them. You wrote: “Zaphod referred to names of places as possible clues… where I think the ‘place’ is enough.” The reason I disagree with your thought is that map features are like fractals: endlessly repeating at different scales and orientations. I see why you favor a more holistic approach to the clues (e.g. all clues describing different aspects or features of the same, relatively small region) as opposed to “stomping out” the clues point-to-point. If you believe the clues are descriptive and not nominative, then perhaps your idea is that you need to find the one unique place in the Rockies where all 9 descriptions fit. That is a tall order, and indeed you would need a “comprehensive knowledge of geography” to be sure you had found such a spot.

    The main reason I think you’re wrong is that Forrest specified that the answers to the poem’s clues were to be found on maps. But you suggest: “A map is nothing more than a birds-eye view… it shows physical features… we add names for convenience, and quick reference to unfamiliarity of the area[s].” I think for a map to be truly useful to a user unfamiliar with the location, having names is a bit more than just a “convenience”. Imagine trying to drive from Santa Fe to Yellowstone with a road map that has no labels: no highway numbers, no street names, no map scale or indication of which way is north, no city or town names. In other words, a bird’s-eye view of the ground … a viewpoint, by the way, that you as the driver are not privileged to see. A map without labels is basically just a picture.

    “What details is fenn relaying to? To me this is the difference between “names” of places to “details” of a map/places, it show physical features. Yep, a road is a physical feature… but do you need to know the name of it to follow it… or a river, a mountain pass etc.”

    I take it you believe the clues — in conjunction with each other — describe some unique geographic location. But how could Forrest be sure his clues specified just one spot? He doesn’t have comprehensive geographic knowledge of the entire four-state area; no one does. I would say that the tremendous number of different places that thousands of searchers have been willing to commit time and money to investigate speaks to the myriad ways such vague clues can be interpreted. If tens of thousands of “solves” were at one time deemed valid by their creators, then I think you can appreciate the risk of Forrest underestimating how many places could match his clues. Removing the names from the equation, in my opinion, expands the possibilities exponentially.

    “I see fenn’s comments about ‘detail’ – ‘looking at maps’ – ‘knowledge of geography might help’ etc. all leading to features. Land feature that have been and should be around than any name given.”

    So you’re concerned with clue longevity if the names change. This doesn’t bother me in the least. People of the future will know when the poem came out and thus will reason that maps contemporary with that period are the appropriate ones to use.

    The difference between us is you want the clues to ‘be’ places that ‘need stomping.’
    You said; ” perhaps your idea is that you need to find the one unique place in the Rockies where all 9 descriptions fit.” Well, I did show how that could be possible by using the RM’s range and the CD to how most of the clues description could bring one to a small location [I’m not talking miles in a location, but maybe several hundred feet, give or take] No, it’s not about ‘all the clues fitting one place” but clues leading to one place in the big picture view. As for your example of driving, sure road names help… that’s the convenient part. but in no way, in my mind, be an actual clue just because we have a starting date… there is no reason to disbelieve that the clues couldn’t be understood when fenn was 5 or in 1935.

    You also seem to refer to a map as a must have or forget about finding the chest, line of thinking. Fenn referred to GE “and / or” [seems many like to skip over the And/Or part] a good map as excellent references ~ a long with the book. he also has been asked directly;
    Q ~ Does somebody need to read your book to find the treasure or do all the clues exist within the poem?
    A ~ They don’t need to read my book, they need to read the poem. The book will help them, BUT they can find the treasure if they can decipher the clues that are in the poem.
    I’ll added; for thought and analyzing…
    All the information to find the chest is in the poem.
    Ignore the poem at your own peril.
    Keeps telling people to go back to the poem.
    etc. etc. etc.
    While I agree the book might be useful, even very useful… as well as GE and /or a good map. Thus far they are only considered good tool in my book. You haven’t shown me that they hold any information that is “needed” for the solution. I’m simple going to utilize those tools, because fenn suggested them as helpful. That, and it would simply make sense to utilize them even without fenn’s suggestion. But not a must and/or containing an answer. We also seem to be different on what scale we look at the poem in. I have trampled over large, small, one state, 4 states, one spot in one state all of the US, and all of north America attempting to understand the poem, including stomping and directional… have you tried any other method, other than stomping out physically, point to point?

    I mean, there is a possibility that the first two clues lead a searcher to the other seven clues [ a very small area ] the other seven clue, at that location, match up to the clues in the poem and tell where the chest lays in wait.

    • Hi Seeker,

      “The difference between us is you want the clues to ‘be’ places that ‘need stomping.’”

      Actually, remarkably, none of my places needs “stomping.” That the clues must be solved in order does not mean that I have to physically visit them.

      “You also seem to refer to a map as a must have or forget about finding the chest, line of thinking. Fenn referred to GE “and / or” [seems many like to skip over the And/Or part] a good map as excellent references ~ along with the book.”

      You can use GE, or physical maps, or online digital topos — makes no difference to me. But you obviously must use ~some~ form of map because the answers to at least some of the clues are found on them.

      You paraphrased Forrest by writing, “All the information to find the chest is in the poem.” This is not strictly true. If all you have is the poem, and you’re not allowed to look at anything else, you cannot find the chest. A map is not optional. It is essential: “I would like to reiterate: Please go back to the poem and look at maps for your answers.” Forrest couldn’t have been any more plain than that.

      “We also seem to be different on what scale we look at the poem in. I have trampled over large, small, one state, 4 states, one spot in one state all of the US, and all of north America attempting to understand the poem, including stomping and directional… have you tried any other method, other than stomping out physically, point to point?”

      Yes. I spent the better part of a year scanning thousands of 7.5-minute topos looking for places that could potentially line up with one or more clues. The exercise was not a complete waste of 1000+ hours of my life because it did give me a pretty comprehensive knowledge of the geography of Montana, Wyoming and most of Colorado. (I was methodically working my way north to south, so I would have covered New Mexico last.) I went with this approach because I figured it was unlikely that many other searchers would have the patience and perseverance to undertake such an onerous, mind-numbing task.

      The only reason I stopped 2/3rd’s of the way through Colorado was that my discovery in the first stanza was so compelling that there was no need for me to waste another second raster-scanning topos.

      • Zap, you need to clarify this part of your post for me: “You can use GE, or physical maps, or online digital topos — makes no difference to me. But you obviously must use ~some~ form of map because the answers to at least some of the clues are found on them.”
        When you say, ‘some of the clues are found on them’ I can see that as correct, if you have deciphered the clue already. But are you saying, you ‘can’t decipher’ the clue without a map[s]?

        As to your comment ~ “If all you have is the poem, and you’re not allowed to look at anything else, you cannot find the chest.”
        I think this is where some folks misunderstand me… I don’t say you’re not ‘allowed’ to look at anything else. Common scene says, you have the book – see if something pops, or look at maps because there seems to be waters and canyons and creeks and wood mentioned. But I don’t think fenn intended a map to be a must to decipher a clue or clues… simply helpful for double checking a thought, and makes it a bit easier that renting a plane to do a flyby. Can an answer to a clue be ‘found’ on a map ? of course it can be found… it still needs to be known of first to find it on a map.
        If fenn said the chest is located at a specific elevation, the first thing needed to be done is look at a topo map for that elevation, right? The answer is the exact elevation, not that it’s a must to have a map to decipher it… just what the next step would be.

      • Seeker, you asked:

        “When you say, ‘some of the clues are found on them’ I can see that as correct, if you have deciphered the clue already. But are you saying, you ‘can’t decipher’ the clue without a map[s]?”

        It depends on which clue we’re talking about, but to simplify the discussion let’s follow Forrest’s instructions and assume we’re trying to “nail down” that first clue. Five years ago I wouldn’t have recognized the first clue even if it was pointed out to me because I was simply unfamiliar with it. But having acquired a pretty comprehensive knowledge of the geography of 3 out of the 4 states, it jumps out at me now. But let’s say you’re the LGFI or LBFW, and you know little about the geography of the Rocky Mountains. Unfortunately, if that’s the case then you have no chance of figuring out what I assume to be the first clue based on just the poem. *But* if you’ve also got a map of the Rockies and you scour that map and cross-reference to the poem, you have a fighting chance to succeed in uncovering it.

        “But I don’t think fenn intended a map to be a must to decipher a clue or clues… simply helpful for double checking a thought, and makes it a bit easier that renting a plane to do a flyby.”

        To reiterate, the problem with that line of thinking is that unless you happen to be fairly familiar with the general area that the clues point to, you can’t have the correct thought to “double check” on a map. It has no chance to leap into your consciousness if you’ve never been exposed to it.

        • Zap, we’re still back to two issues 1, being does size matter? is clue # 1 a place, a large place, a small place… you seem to have it as a small relative place and the place to start.

          I could say clue 1 is an overall large meaning and a place on a large scale and can be seen on pretty much any map of the overall area.

          We still have two perspectives. That ant to a mud puddle scenario. Who’s right…lol at this point… neither of us. But I’ll add this thought, no matter how the poem is read, we have been warned we should have some kinda certainty of the path to be taken [ physically or following the poem at home ] beforehand. Certainty in my definition is the entire poem, not just a few deciphered clues, fill up the truck, while playing Willie’s on the road again.

          Fenn also stated many time in many ways… don’t have the first clues nailed down… stay home. Wait! What? didn’t several searcher tell fenn what they thought and or did, and he knows the decipher the first two clues BUT they didn’t… what is missing from that certainty ?

        • Seeker,

          “Zap, we’re still back to two issues 1, being does size matter? is clue # 1 a place, a large place, a small place… you seem to have it as a small relative place and the place to start.”

          You’ve probably missed some of my posts. Not that long ago I revealed that neither of my first two clues’ answers are small places, when solved individually.

          “I could say clue 1 is an overall large meaning and a place on a large scale and can be seen on pretty much any map of the overall area.”

          I haven’t checked a bunch of maps to confirm, but on a reasonable-sized map of the U.S. Rockies, I would expect my clue #1 to be there, as well as my clue #2. But nothing beyond that.

          “But I’ll add this thought, no matter how the poem is read, we have been warned we should have some kinda certainty of the path to be taken [ physically or following the poem at home ] beforehand.”

          Wholeheartedly agree. That’s why I didn’t leave home when I had only a strongly suspected starting point.

          “Fenn also stated many time in many ways… don’t have the first clues nailed down… stay home.”

          Obviously most people’s personal definition of “nailed down” is blindly optimistic, otherwise tens of thousands of searchers wouldn’t have traveled to a 100,000+ places over the last 6 years.

  36. I truly hope everyone on the blog had a great Christmas. What a fine group of people, and I mean that very sincerely. The past few months have been very interesting and rewarding. I truly hope that one of you good people find that Treasure chest.

    Of course, I’d like to be the one to find it, but can truly say that if one of your names come up when it IS found I will cheer loudly. I have greatly enjoyed the conversations here (including the arguments lol). All the best to all of you! 🙂

  37. Hi Tim — responding to your 12/21 post here because it’s buried so far above that it’s getting hard to find. First off, concur on your concerns about revealing too much here, especially given that there is a large disparity in the amount of time that different searchers have been working at the puzzle, and an unknown number of lurkers who never post at all.

    “Tell ya what….you want some help?….fine….I’ll give you my view in some of the clues, but I will not give you my location…fair enough?”

    If you’ve been following my posts, you are doubtless aware that I don’t need any help with my solution. It is solved to my satisfaction, and all I’ve been doing the last couple months is playing Devil’s Advocate and looking for loopholes.

    “WWWH – edge of civilization, lodge, hotel, airport, museum, motel, a place with running warm water. WWWH is micro view”

    Well, we’ll have to agree to disagree on that.

    “Canyon down – literally a canyon between mountain ranges…macro view”

    I concur that the “canyon down” is straightforward; no trickery from Fenn here.

    “hoB – a place where something or someone lives/lived – which contains the name of “Brown”. I think it is a person AND a reference to an animal like a beaver, bear, etc.”

    In my solution, it is actually none of those things. Our solutions disagree on nearly every point you mentioned, so there is no danger that we are in the same spot, though I’m sure you knew that! (smiles) Best of luck to you in 2017 — may you have safe adventures and new insights!

    • Thanks for the response Zap…and helping with speaking my point.

      …which is….we all have our own ideas on hows, the wheres and the whys of the search, and whether or not as reveal information publicly, privately or whatever, we all think differently…..BUT….we all have smething in common…..we all are on the same search.

      That is why I do encourage logical reasoning on the clues, to help others decipher the understanding of the clue. …not the actual location.

      This is what ff would want…because I believe he only encourages us to have fun and a thrill….not to take knives to each other.

      I also believe….if many come together…knowing that the reward can be shared….the solution – the word exchange and open comm amongst these folks – will cause the answer to come out.

      Good luck to you as well Zap….in 2017, on your searches and throughout the fun.

      To paraphrase Bill Murray….

      “Be the chest.”

      :o)

    • Sparrow: point taken. Will try favor succinct over thorough, especially when replying to Seeker. (smiles)

    • Ha! Novel, I get it…

      Next time, I’ll try to talk in code and leave my great grandma’s cookie recipe, and throw myself a pity party because life is so unfair, worry about the spouse leaving and for some unknown reason have to tell the world about it…. Dang! That soap box does get around…lol.
      Well, lets see… we have over 6 years of comment, interviews, recordings, e-mail, SB’s Q&A’s, 2 books, thousand of hours of researching, not to mention we beg for more, and more bones for the scrap-pile… Yep, when we try to align everything, and actually discuss the chase, postings tend to get long. Oh! and a difficult poem we all like to solve. Now add differences of opinions… I can see your point, it’s a scant of a point, but if I squint real hard I can see it.
      Just a bit of a longer comment.
      But I’m gonna blame Zap anyways… he started it.

      • Just kidding about the “novel”. I enjoy reading the ideas and explanations on the blog. The blog really wouldn’t be much without them. There are really a lot of great things shared here. I appreciate the thought put into a lot of what is shared. Appreciate it.

  38. All,
    After careful consideration, we (self and kids) have come to the conclusion that we do not have a good theory as to whether
    “Just heavy loads and water high.”
    is one clue or two clues, although we have little doubt that it is a clue line.
    I am curious–do any other searchers have a similar uncertainty?
    (Please feel free to answer as vaguely as might be prudent.) Thanks!
    Happy New Year, everyone!
    Geoff
    “Have flashlight, will travel”

    • Geoff –

      To me Just Heavy Loads and Water High is one clue and a good description of a spring run off creek. What happens is that a large volume of water rushing off the mountain moves a lot of material and quite large rocks for a short period of time. The creek in summer just looks like a rock slide.

      My search and adventure partner Wingnutz is a geologist by training. What Forrest would refer to as a Rock Jockey. He didn’t care about my lunatic treasure ramblings for a long time. Eventually I actually read him the line you are asking about and he immediately said spring runoff creek. He sent the Fenn poem to a colleague. Now she didn’t know where the search area was buy her response was that it sounds like someone describing Las Vegas New Mexico.

      Isn’t that just the most interesting thing? A woman who works as a geologist says look in Las Vegas in one of the 4 states. Las Vegas is outside the search area but it makes you think.

      Lugnutz out

    • Geoff,
      IMO it’s one clue. As I’ve said before I feel the poem is multi layered. For me in each layer “heavy loads and water high”are represented by different things but in each instance they are used in conjunction with “there will be no paddle up your creek” (which also most likely has different meanings). Once these components are correctly identified the “blaze” will be somewhere along the “line” you are traveling (or close to it).
      I just read back over that and I see it’s clear as mud.

    • Geoff

      I’m betting that ‘heavy loads’ is a definite clue, but not ‘waters high’, given that a creek was already mentioned

      (I tried to be vague, but tact is certainly not my forte)

      happy new year back atcha
      🙂

      • Hey Bert! Waters may not be high, but you know what is? …. your hair! keehehehehehehehe!

        😛

      • IW

        it’s not so much that my hair is tall ..it’s more that I’m just quite short for my height.
        🙂

    • Geoff,
      As of the last year I see them as 2 different clues seeing they are 2 unknowns. In my mind they are clearly 2 different things in the same general area.

    • Geoff,
      It may not be a clue at all… it could be a description of all the above.

      Or maybe what the blaze is, heavy and high and the need to look quickly down when it is discovered.
      There’ll be no paddle… to mean, no need to travel, but viewing what HLNWH represents.

      • Uh-oh…if I am reading this accurately…

        “It may not be a clue at all… it could be a description of all the above.

        Or maybe what the blaze is, heavy and high and the need to look quickly down when it is discovered.”

        I do believe you are making a reference to the key word….”blaze”.

        Yep….the poem can (and IMO is) also a “blaze” of a very large proportion….it leisurely is a direction to take. Thus, the words make the blaze, like a hiker marks their trail.

        IMO – one needs to look for these markings in order to follow the blaze to the location.

        Once you have figured this out, you can move in confidence to the end location.

        But how did FF mark his trail? Circled F?, a red F?, black tar?, frogs?….etc…etc…etc….who really knows besides ff, but we must not discount any of them.

        May I suppose for a moment?….ff could have used them all in conjuction, separate, or even in part…..and used only one of them?

        Here is something I came across that was interesting.

        He speaks of frogs. He loves frogs. He also has spoken of his life trek as a “muddy creek”. Frogs love this habitat. Could the clue “no paddle up your creek” actually refer to a muddy trail that is a habitat for frogs? Could this creek, actually lead you to a higher elevation, knowing that frogs (in Montana)….not sure of other states…..use lower elevations to thrive.

        http://fieldguide.mt.gov/speciesDetail.aspx?elcode=aaabh01170

        It seems to be “Fennology” at its best.

        “Blaze”….you really should realize on how important this word was to FF, how he used it, what he has done with it, why he uses it, and of course, one cannot acquire any of those things, without acknowledging it first.

        :o)

        Don’t mind me, I’m just rambling….*winks*…

        Good luck to all in 2017.

  39. its my opinion that waters high means the go north to the end of the body of water from there the blaze is not far away

  40. “HAPPY NEW YEARS TO ALL SEARCHERS” and with a new year upon us as does a new year of searching. Everyone, enjoy another year of poems, riddles and botg. Please be very SAFE and while searching don’t forget to enjoy the Rockies and the locals and their business and each other.
    Timothy !!! IMHO

  41. in my opinion no paddle up your creek means that the creek will end and your next clue will be l heavy loads where you will go north to the end of waters high from there you will go north to the blaze

  42. 2017 is fast approaching and IMO I suspect it will be the year that all 9 clues are correctly deciphered and the chest is moved to a new location. I realize that many have claimed that “this will be the year”, and while I do reserve a slight chance for error, this really could be THE year!

    • HA! “Slight chance for error.” Every year next year has been THE YEAR it will be found since the beginning of the chase. Overly confident, overly emotional, and overly paranoid searchers are a hoot.

      • Right Goofy –

        They never say what the “key” word is or what the first clue is or where they’re looking. Or whatever they’re banking about. They go out in the spring to a place that’s been searched before. Usually many times before. They disappear.

        Why? Whhhhyyyyyy?

        • Lug nutz – are you from Portland? You remind me of Portland 🙂 that’s where I’m from. Your comment made me laugh!

          • Mon Sherri –

            I think that’s a compliment right? Portland is or was a great town but I am from Chicago.

            I’ll tell you a secret here because no one will read it. The treasure won’t be found until a time in the future when folks decide to work together. Some day someone will tell us what the firat clue is and where to begin searching or solving and then someone else will figure out the second clue…

            Lugnutz

          • Lug,
            I saw your little secret message to mon sherri. I have to say I would tell you (or at least hint at how to solve it) what the first clue is if I knew what it was. I know what I thought it was and I can tell you that idea has definitely been discussed and I know it’s important to the winning solve but it’s not the first clue. I’d be happy to share that if you’d like…………
            As far as what I think might be the first clue……………”in there” “where” with hints to that being “riches new and old” (which is NOT the gold or artifacts in the chest). If I had to guess I would say memories. Old precious memories and new memories being made.
            There
            They’re
            Their?

          • Wy G –

            Here’s what I mean.
            Someone some day will say the first clue is WWWH. And it refers to Mammoth Springs for this reason that no one figured out or put together. Then we all say wow great we agree and let’s move on to the second clue.

            Right now lots of searchers say Only I know this thing and so therefore only I will find the treasure. And you know what? Somebody might know where to begin or someone may have found the blaze. Someone may actually know definitively what Home of Brown refers to. But ALL of the searchers have failed and most have chosen not to share. It’s the self centered approach the self aggrandizement that keeps the collective blinders on.

            Currently we have a really pretentious person on this board who thinks he has a method of discovery AND a search area that no one has ever thought of. We are fortunate to even be in the presence of such genius. Of course we’ll never know. And to Goofy’s point he’ll wander out into the RMs find his shadow and we’ll have 6 more weeks of winter.

            IMO
            Lugnutz

          • I agree and disagree with you, Lug. IMO most if not all of the info needed for a winning solve has been discussed at some point and that many different searchers have at least some of the different aspects figured out. Some have probably figured out much of what is needed. According to Forrest it’s possible someone figured out 4 clues (nearly half). We know that searchers have been very close physically whether they knew it or not. Obviously to find that 10″ by 10″ spot the solver is going to have the tenacity to keep plugging away at the puzzle, have the ability to admit when they are wrong, and you’re right, discuss and further the chase by sharing ideas.
            The one problem I see with what you are saying-how is everybody ever going to recognize and agree that the first clue is correct if and when said clue is presented?

          • WY G –

            The point is that we don’t know and I mean none of us. If any one of us was right the treasure would be found.

            All of my HoBs are guesses. I don’t know if one of them is right. If we discussed with each other the reason for choosing our HoB like Los Alamos we could dismiss the validate the claim.

            Los Alamos was an early HoB for me because Br is Bromine.

        • This feels like the Dumb and Dumber movie – Jim Carey – “So what are my chances, one on a hundred?”

          Lauren Holly “More like one in a million.”

          Jim Carey – “So you’re telling me there’s a chance.”

      • Hi Goofy: months ago (I think it was still summer) I was quite confident that the chest would NOT be found in 2016 and even made a “hard biscuit” wager with E.C. Waters to that effect. I don’t recall any other poster sharing my pessimism at that time. That said, I am not renewing that bet for 2017.

        To make this post 9-clues relevant, I will reiterate my belief that the first clue is in the first stanza, that WWWH is my second clue, and that there are at least 3 clues in the second stanza. I have also found hints in every stanza. Your mileage may vary, but I don’t think it should be too surprising that each stanza would hold a hint and/or a clue when Forrest has warned about discounting even single words.

        Have a Happy New Year and best of luck to all in 2017!

  43. Hear me all
    what state are you dealing with? I promise I won’t follow you.
    Timothy,,,

    I believe the KEY word is not in the poem, how about anyone else?

  44. Goofy,

    After my first solve I learned not be “overly” anything. One thing that I can’t change is that I am a hopeful person.

    With your post above, it would seem that you are in the camp that thinks the solution is so tough that it really might be hundreds or thousands of years before the chest is found. I remember back to f saying something about his book being enough to lead an average person to the treasure. I also remember this summer when one of his weekly words suggested that the correct solution was not near as tough as most are making it to be. It would seem that since you are still a “chaser” that you do have hope as well. Why, in your posts do you seem to elude that it won’t be found in 2017? Just because it hasn’t been found in past years doesn’t provide enough evidence to conclude that next year or subsequent years will follow suit.

    • You are correct HearMe. I don’t think Fenn intended for anyone in this generation to find it. He hid the chest, along with his biography to fill in the blank spots he talks about for the person in the future that finds it.

      Sure someone could find it next year; but I think it’s highly unlikely. I certainly think your “slight chance of error” that you are wrong about it being found next year is overly optimistic. You guys are a hoot.

      • So you forget Forrest’s statement that some are in tight focus with a word that is key and the chest may be found sooner than expected. What do you think Forrest thinks the tightly focused one’s will pass down some info and not the actual chest ? Me thinks Forrest knows just how tightly focused the one’s are and kinda likes that it may be all over pretty soon .

        • Ya –

          Do you have the quote or a link to what Forrest said? I remember it differently.

          Lugnutz

          • ya-sha-wa, that is incorrect.

            Lug, I forget but it’s something like, many have put serious thought into the clues of the poem, and some are in tight focus with a word that is key. (notice no quotation marks)
            ya-sha-wa, he could be saying that there are
            clues” that are in tight focus. You are giving out wrong info by “assuming” he is talking about searchers/people.

          • Charlie,
            Good point. I think we all keep forgetting to look at the many different things the same words can mean. With Forrest I think it’s safe to say “Never Assume!”

          • If charlie down below simply typed forrest fenn tight focus into google it would have the answer . http://mysteriouswritings.com/six-questions-more-with-forrest-fenn/
            “It is interesting to know that a great number of people are out there searching. Many are giving serious thought to the clues in my poem, but only a few are in tight focus with a word that is key. The treasure may be discovered sooner than I anticipated.” Hey charlie ! Notice I used quotes this time as I did not use my own summary ?

          • Considering “anticipate” means to find sooner than expected…one might find that logically an important word….Moving forward, I hope so, at least.

  45. Goofy –

    If it is highly unlikely that someone will find the chest anytime in say the next 60 years, why are you still in the chase? If the reality is that the chest won’t be found for many, many years then why would anyone spend time trying to work on a solution? Do you think it will take one generation passing on what they have learned to the next generation and so on in order to arrive at the correct solution? I’m just trying to give new searchers a reason to believe that there is hope that the chest can be found without spending their entire lives chasing after something that they won’t be able to secure.

    • Why am I still in the chase………Because I’m an optimistic sort, like the challenge, and I’m going to be in the mountains anyway. As far as the new chasers goes, I don’t think it matters either way what you or I say. Anyone crazy enough to do what we are doing doesn’t care about being rational.

        • Goofy… “Anyone crazy enough to do what we are doing doesn’t care about being rational”
          ….Until they rationalize the right solution 🙂 imo

      • Goofy ~ “Anyone crazy enough to do what we are doing doesn’t care about being rational.”
        Ha! lol ain’t that the truth.

        During the California gold rush in the 1850’s the pop. was approx. 23 million. in 2010 the pop. was closer to 310 million.
        During the 1850’s gold rush the opportunity was much greater and wide spread [ and a need for lot more muscle than brains ]

        This challenge has been lead by the “rush” [ the thrill ] and the difference between the two, is the different challenge to discover it. [more brains than muscle].

        Fenn was looking “down the road”… I for one, am attempting the same. LOL maybe I’m being too rational.

        • Seeker –
          “Fenn was looking “down the road”… I for one, am attempting the same.”

          I couldn’t agree more with you Seeker. Since we know f drove down the road in a sedan to hide the chest it makes perfect sense that he was also looking down the road.

          IMO, a road is not far from where the chest is hidden and quite possibly a hint or clue will let us know which road/s we should be looking down. When you think about the size and scope of the Rocky Mountains it can be overwhelming. However, if you think about how few roads there are in the Rockies it can narrow the focus to much more manageable area.

          Have a Happy New Year and don’t consume too much eggnog. 🙂

          • Logical sound thinking Hma,
            Sure does limit the areas to look & considering all the other statements, down the road is not too far.

          • HNA;

            I did not find my road by looking at the Scrap Books, but SB 152 confirmed, at least to me, that I had found the correct road. Also, there is important information, at least to me, in the small quite he posted at the end of the SB.

            Forrest did not write the story in SB 152, but he chose to publish it. The question is why? MUST be something hidden in there…or there is to me. JDA

        • Seeing ya’ll are talking about how a clue might work for down the road as driving. I can’t disagree more.

          Not unlike all the researches being done from Molly Brown’s house to Alien Eggs… The down the road comments all have one thing in common… time. 100, 1000, 10,000 years in thought.
          Time in the future, as well as, the intent of influencing future generations… the bells, the jars, the chest, the bio… all with the thought of down the road.

          I can’t fathom the thought that fenn wants folks back out enjoying nature, looking, hiking, tracking our way to the chest, inside a 4×4 pickup or mom’s soccer taxi.
          Is this the best you can derive [ see what I did there .. lol ] that; not far, but too far to walk means drive out the clue[s]? I guess look quickly down is to mean hit the brakes.

          Dang, that means George Jetson has no change of location the chest… his vehicle is equip with air brake… no road required.

          • I will take it one step further & say the treasure is not hidden within 3 miles of any paved road.

            Most likely down a forest service road.

          • My one and only search area has my solve within a mile of a forest service road.

            Although..,.I do believe I am on that road for six miles….deep in the forest.

          • You’re talking common sense Tim,
            We know he worked for the forest service back in the day & would seem unlikely for him to park on a asphalt paved surface & then hide the treasure.

            But, I do see how one the components to one of the clues could be a paved road.

          • “You’re talking common sense Tim,
            We know he worked for the forest service back in the day & would seem unlikely for him to park on a asphalt paved surface & then hide the treasure.”

            Of course I am in some ways, but I also believe “NFBTFTW” is a paved road.

            So again, you prove that there are multiple layers to word meanings.

            NFBTFTW
            – refers to distance and a road

            Cheers.

          • Seeker –

            “Is this the best you can derive [ see what I did there .. lol ] that; not far, but too far to walk means drive out the clue[s]? I guess look quickly down is to mean hit the brakes.”

            I don’t see NF, BTFTW as a reference to driving or distance. It’s actually quite different and clever. For me it wasn’t an easy task to figure out but it wasn’t impossible.

            As for look quickly down. I have a much different take on that portion of the line. To me it doesn’t have anything to do with putting on the brakes. I’m still working on some clues and finding the confirmation from f.

            I fully understand that when f said he was “looking down the road,” he was referencing time and not a road, however the reason I offered up a different idea was because the likelihood that the chest is hidden not far from a road is very real. I’m going to go out on a limb and say it’s less than two miles from a paved road.

          • When I get it this Spring I’m going to stop on the way with a pick-axe and bust up a chunk of a highway, take it with me, and toss it on the ground near the chest before I lay my hands on it. Hope you like the taste of leather 🙂

          • IW: “When I get it this Spring”

            That’s just it, you don’t get it.

            Good luck & keep F’s dog out of the equation.

          • Hi Jake: I think you’ll need some nice seasoning to go with that hat of yours. I’ll go HMA one better: I think the chest will turn out to be less than a mile from a paved road.

          • Zap,
            This is a man of nature we are talking about here.
            I can’t see how he would take his sedan & park it on asphalt where there is a lot more traffic than a dirt/gravel road.

            I’ll crap on my hat & eat it if the treasure was hidden by F within a mile of a paved asphalt road.
            Hows that, I’ll provide the seasoning.

            Back to the 9 clues, I’ve said it before, I think the 9 clues are 9 unknowns that we have to figure out when you strip the poem down without trying to think what the clues mean. Step one.

          • Zap-
            I lean toward the idea that the chest is hidden not far from a road as well. I think the chest is not far from where Forrest parked his vehicle, which I believe, is in a parking lot close to the road. I also think Forrest parked near HOB…close to the “put in” spot. I have been working that area for a couple years now, working myself further away from the place I assume he parked on each visit. It’s still a large area and I still have no idea what I am looking for in that region. It’s like a chimera…sometimes things line up. Meek, water high and heavy loads seem to scream at me but then I take another thirty steps and everything dissolves away…
            When clues don’t reveal themselves anymore I can either:
            1. walk around aimlessly sucking in clean air
            2. remove myself mentally from the chase and focus on something else since I am in this interesting place
            3. sit on the warm ground, stare off into the undulating grasses, purple artemisia and scattered lodgepole and say to myself “what would Forrest see?”

            So you can probably guess that I spend a lot more time considering the place I am looking at rather than walking around, turning over every rock I see…I am still looking for places and clues…not the chest…yet…

            I sure enjoy myself out there though…

          • Jake – I underestimated you. You have a much stronger stomach than I anticipated! I’m thinking you are a man of your word if you are willing to take it to that level.

          • It’s not so much of having a strong stomach but more like knowing what is acceptable in his mind.

            I do not make idle bets as that one is not.

            If you think it’s that close to traffic on a paved road, then I don’t think you have done enough research & will be like will.

          • Jake, sometimes I think future generations would have an advantage over us in terms of solving the clues because their minds wouldn’t be polluted and distracted by all the minutiae we think we know about Forrest.

            “I can’t see how he would take his sedan & park it on asphalt where there is a lot more traffic than a dirt/gravel road.”

            Who said anything about parking on asphalt? The question was about proximity of a paved road to the chest’s location. Taking a paved road to a dirt or gravel road isn’t ruled out.

            “I’ll crap on my hat & eat it if the treasure was hidden by F within a mile of a paved asphalt road. Hows that, I’ll provide the seasoning.”

            I won’t hold you to it, Jake. Eating that sweat-stained hat of yours would be punishment enough!

            “Back to the 9 clues, I’ve said it before, I think the 9 clues are 9 unknowns that we have to figure out when you strip the poem down..”

            I’ll stop your quote right there because I agree with every word. It’s the stripping down process that’s tripping everyone up.

          • Yes Zap,
            The proxy to a paved road.
            I suggest you think about this & do some research before you think it’s that close to a paved road. You will eventually see it’s no where near a paved road.

            My hat has been baptized in dirt, sea salt & vinegar & have no intentions of eating it as we know the only way that can happen.

            The stripping down process begins with trying to figure out what words or phrases in the poem may be clues without trying to figure out what the clues mean.

            You have to separate these thoughts to start, otherwise, I think most are wasting there time.

          • Jake–

            You said something about eating your hat. I hope you don’t wear one of those huge Mexican Sombreros do you?

    • Good points “Hma”.

      I also believe it will be found in my lifetime…even within five years.

      Why do I say this?

      Because there are too many people looking for it, many people share info to refine other solves, and it is serially the only treasure hunt I’ve heard of where the person who generated it, is still alive and there are much more people looking than any other treasure hunt in the past.

      It’ll be found.

      Cheers.

      • Now come on Tim. How can you set there and send out that type of statement when you were not their to see how many people originally was searching for the other treasures. Just like FF this hunt will slow to a snails crawl just like the other ones you talked mentioned. Oh Wait……… That’s right, I have my 9 clues (hopefully right) and I will be coming back out to the west this summer in the 1st week of July. So I guess it will be found during your life time…….
        RRRRRRRRRRR matie, a Pirates gold for me!!!!
        Timothy…

  46. Goofy may be right–I hope he’s wrong. But you know what? Either way this has been a great experience! I e-mailed Forrest (and sincerely mean this) that I have gained more knowledge in 4 months since I started the search than in the ten years prior to this.

    This has really been a lot of fun, and I really do thank Forrest for hiding the treasure.

    NORTHERN CONTINENTAL HEMISPHERE QUADRANT 7 DAILY REPORT. 08-26-4457

    “A strange “chest” was found today in the sector containing the formerly named “Rocky Mountains”. The find us very unusual as no mildew was found inside despite the fact it appears to have been hidden for hundreds of years. There is a gold frog in the chest, along with human hairs and some kind of “treatise”. DNA test scheduled for tomorrow”.

      • Leigh,
        Seriously, I do ok with writing because I read a lot and I can usually tell what sounds right, but when it comes to the rules of grammer I’m hopeless and often have a difficult time finding mistakes. I know there are supposed to be mistakes in TTOTC and I’ve found some but I’m sure I’m missing a bunch.
        Have you found a lot?

      • My grammar (before she died) once made a proposition that I become a writer. But I never could understand that a preposition is a word you should never end a sentence with.

  47. Good morning fellow searchers. I hope everyone is enjoying the company of their love ones this last day of 2016. It is my strong belief that the nine clues will lead the searcher to 5 feet or less from the treasure chest. I also believe the poem is 100% free from deceit, and 100% accurate. The nine clues are what they are, and not what someone wants , or wishes them to be. They exist for the one person who believes in the poem, and aknowledges the poem is Fenn’s words. I have always said that if the person does not open herself or himself to the nine clues and let the clues guide them, they will walk blindy. The nine clues are there to help us, and not to mislead us if we let them. Nine clues, 9 awakenings and only the person that realizes this will find the treasure chest. Do not fear the “dragon”(the poem) for the dragon is just an illusion. We have been drawn into Fenn’s make – believe world , but it is only our imagination playing tricks on us. Take off the veil in front of you, and you shall see the truth. This is my opinion.RC.

  48. I can no clue what the nine clues are. For I do know for sure is that my life has been enhanced by this treasure hunt. I enjoy being out in nature. If someone finds that chest, my questions will be answered. I secretly hope that it is not found during my lifetime so that generations can continue having the thrill of the chase, especially in this age of computers. Maybe that DNA will become the most valuable possession in the chest. Happy New Year to you and yours.

    • Maybe he put some yeast in there. The Fenn or FEN2 gene is responsible for the reason that warm water is able to activate it “back to life” to after hundreds of years. It’s right by the Hpynss gene. Then again F is unlikely to carry this trait since he’s not exactly a fungi, even though he is. I’ll have to compare the genetic markers with the fingerprint he left on the left side of the picture of him and June chopping wood in the book and check for spores. Then again I tend to approach my solve as a crime so the fingerprint is one of the clues I actually do have (with or without bread breaking) so please don’t tell anyone about that. It’s top secret.

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