Where Warm Waters Halt…

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This is for a discussion about Where Warm Waters Halt. We’ve all got ideas that didn’t work out or we are willing to share…I think we can give folks just starting out some ideas for the kinds of places that might just be the place Where Warm Waters Halt…or not!

Let the discussion begin…

dal…

554 thoughts on “Where Warm Waters Halt…

    • This is the most insightful vlog post I’ve ever watched regarding The Chase.

      “R” – I love it. It’s this kind of orthogonal thinking that is going to crack the clues wide open.

      You inspired me to complete the article I started a year and a half ago about how to look at the poem a little differently. I’ll shoot it off to Dal and see if he likes it enough to post it.

    • Agent 777,
      I liked your video…..especially the analogy about the gear shift. This is a great illustration of how lateral thinking could work in solving clues or what Forrest meant by “thinking the right things”.

      You also theorized around minute 6:30 that because he said we can’t get started without solving the first clue that one of the hints in the book ‘must’ relate to WWWH. This seems to make sense and I came to this same theory about 2 years ago. I’ve worked the book over pretty good with an eye for just that one clue/hint match-up and got nada. So does there have to be a hint in the book that relates to WWWH? Well actually no. We have to remember that the hints were “not deliberately placed” and, like assuming that WWWH refers to a hot spring, having a convenient hint in the book for the first clue might be too easy. The “not deliberately” clause, to me, means that hint/clue correlation is random and just happenstance. The other possibility is me and everybody else is just missing that critical connection in the book so I haven’t completely abandoned the line of thinking but I’m getting more skeptical.

      There’s no doubt in my mind the searcher has to match a first clue to a spot on a map and then you’re “metaphorically half way there”. The crux, as you pointed out is…. what is the correct way to “think” about this clue?

      • Old Indian proverb say: “Listening to a liar is like drinking warm water.”

        Only reference to warm water and Indian I could find.

        So maybe WWW is…is den of iniquities, lies…

        halts is where WWW ends and truth begins?

        • Interesting thought Sheryl about truth. Especially after some of the False descriptions of books in the “Important Literature” chapter of TToTC.

      • Hi Colokid… your remark about searching TTOTC, “…with an eye for just that one clue/hint match-up and got nada.” got me thinking that maybe the 1 clue is actually ff’s title and jacket image for TFTW book. Many titles and images could have been chosen for that book, but TFTW are the words immediately AFTER the “warm waters halt”, so may we presume the shadow figure is at or after, the halt place? The figure seems to have the sun at his back — creating a foreshadow, not just a shadow. Can we stretch a little & call a shoreline a halt or curb? As for warm … is heated by the sun rather than emerging hot from the earth implied? Try creating 2 symbols, one specifying sun-heated waters, the other earth-heated waters. Would that be useful geography mapping info?
        Just something to think about, hope my explanation was clear. OS2

        • WWWH could be the “shadow of a clue” that f was talking about…shadow of him standing in the low river, shadow pointing in a direction?

        • OS2,
          Your suggestion attaches a lot of implied meaning to the photo of the shadow on the river and suggests that it was staged in a very specific way.

          If you go back to Dal’s story about how that photo came into being I believe that you will see that it was not very deliberate. As I recall, F asked Dal to go to a certain place and take a photo. The shadow is not real, if I’m not mistaken, was dubbed in. So there would be no real relation to the sun, and if this is the “Halt Place” then Dal knows exactly where it is. Doesn’t seem to have helped him.

          I’ve considered that banks may be a place where water halts but haven’t produced any results that way myself.

          • One of the original music artists back in the day to first use and popularize “dubbing” in their recordings wrote and recorded the song-“Peggy Sue”.

            A little bit of trivia.

          • I went back through my emails last year to calculate how wealthy I’d be if I charged a dollar to take everyone that asked, to the spot where the TFTW cover photo was taken. The summer after TFTW was published Stephanie and I joked about setting up a couple of stands at that spot…one to sell T-shirts and another to sell hot dogs…but to get back to “how wealthy I’d be”…I guess I’d have a while before I caught up to Forrest…I only counted 373 emails requesting the location of that spot.

            After Fennboree this spring I’ll be headed up to the Yellowstone region to test my latest ideas for clues…
            If anyone else is up there at that time I will gladly show you the spot…
            I won’t even charge you a dollar…

            No, I don’t have the coordinates…the camera I used to shoot that image does not have a GPS. I guess I could post very rough coordinates…but I’d be guessing…

            If you want to visit the exact spot I’d have to take you there…You could make your own shadow photo… 🙂

            It’s a pleasant hike from the end of the road….wildflowers should be out…

          • Colored, Staging is just the point I was making… nothing was accidental. Fenn built a message into a photo & book title only a few would comprehend. Dal’s photo had no strong shadows, so that the artist could photoshop the shadow onto it to create ff’s cryptic message. The archeologist, art authority, & communicator understands & uses symbols very knowingly.

            I agree, Where the photo was taken is not THE halt place. Until recently I thought simile’s were metaphors that used the words ‘like’ or ‘as.” They are not, there’s very subtle difference between them. Similes compare, metaphors equate. Dal’s photo place was meant to be a blank canvas for ff build a metaphor of the halt place.

            The title he chose, TFTW, confirms the photo metaphor match the WWWH place in the poem. Dan Brown entertained us well with symbology.

            I don’t know if I cleared anything up, but IMO, the title and jacket-photo of the TFTW book are very significant & specific to understanding the “begin-halt’ clue of the poem.

        • OS2, take that picture of the map, use paint program, copy it, flip the original horizontally, then paste the copy over it and use 50% opacity. Now move the copy layer on it’s “x” vector until you bring together the 13 declinations. A 3 reversed an arrow pointing up and a 3. Look up, there’s your “X” on a map, and your WWWH.
          Why 33, it’s important, look at the words in the poem by stanza: 25,27,27,29,29,29, if one more stanza, how many words would it have? That pattern would lead to 33. There is a lot more info on that, but this is just really quick.

          • getting closer OS2. Next you’ll be talking about alpha/numerics and “by design”. Sooner or later you’ll find the “2442”.

          • Flip, rotate, numbers, numbers, everywhere! I’m getting a drink and my flashlight and going to sit in my open box!

          • Charlie, Sorry you couldn’t understand my prior post…. Ill try and make it simpler…

            Colokid said that if the first & most important clue is WWWH, there should be a hint to it in TTOTC. I agree. Colorkid said he couldn’t find any hint in TTOTC …. that got me thinking.

            Maybe after a year or more of market results, Fenn decided such a hint should exist.

            1. But TTOTC was already in circulation, how and where could he put give such a hint? To be fair, it had to be as accessible as the poem and any other hints in TTOTC. It could not solely be in a radio interview or blog post. He could put the new hint INSIDE his new memoirs book, TFTW, but selling the $50 book might taint the hunt with a profit motive. There should be no additional cost for a new hint. Now solve that dilemma if you can.

            2. Fenn solved the dilemma by releasing the hint on the jacket-cover of the new book. The title and picture are freely & equally accessible because they are posted on his web site, as is the poem. Seekers didn’t have to buy TTOTC to get the poem, and they wouldn’t have to buy TFTW to get the hint.

            That solution is brilliant…the jacket looks perfectly benign and appropriate for the content of the book, yet it does dual service. The pic is a very subtle hint, and the title associates the hint to the specific clue in the poem.

            That may be reach for you Charlie, but that’s what opinions are….

          • OS2 ~ You said “Colokid said that if the first & most important clue is WWWH, there should be a hint to it in TTOTC.”

            Colokid stated as well “…So does there have to be a hint in the book that relates to WWWH? Well actually no.”

            My thoughts fall to, All the information to locate the treasure is in the poem comment… Should there be an “answer” to what wwwh refers to, wouldn’t it be in the poem?

            We’ve been told a hint will help with a clue, but a clue leads to the chest… If a hint turns out to be an answer to that clues… is it still a hint?
            My question are for discussion, not for right or wrong… To understand how fenn see hints vs. clues, vs. answers or what a clue refers to has been a major dilemma from day one { well, except for all the know it all’s that know where the chest is…}

            How do you break down a hint to a clue to an answer / refer too?

          • Seeker, I don’t know any special rules separating hints from clues, but I am trying to conform to a standard I think was set here in the hunt, Clues are in the poem, anything else is a hint, its somehow lesser than a clue. But its a squishy standard.

            And I took Colokids “Well, actually no.” and tried to test it as a “maybe”. Just exercising some logic and lots of guesswork and assuming. Sometimes things sound like “absolutes” but its just that this form does not lend itself to lengthy qualifiers.

            Every thing I said rests on a plausible assumption, that Fenn wanted to add a hint about the most important clue… which I am also assuming is the “begin-halt” line.

            I always appreciate your input. Thanks. OS2

          • OS2-
            I can butt in here with a thought to further discombobulate searchers with what Forrest feels the difference is between clues and hints…
            I remember this because when a certain someone heard Forrest say it a couple of years ago it nearly caused a mutiny…

            This is from an interview Forrest gave to Richard Eeds on KVSF Radio in Santa Fe..

            “There are hints in my book that will help you with the clues, but a clue will point you toward the treasure chest and a hint will just help you with the clues, if you can understand that.”

            This occurs about 24 minutes into that interview. The interview is here:
            http://lummifilm.com/AUDIO/kvsf2015.mp3

          • Hey OS2,
            All I have as far as rules go [ I like to think of it as more a helpful guide ]… “There are hints in my book that will help you with the clues, but a clue will point you toward the treasure chest and a hint will just help you with the clues, if you can understand that.”

            So If a hint[s] will ‘just help’ with a clue, but a clue[s] will get you to the chest… a hint can not be an answer or what the clue refers to. If it did, it would be a clue itself.

            Or do you read this different? Just curious if you do, and would you explain why…

            As to the book tftw…
            Q– How much more likely are hunters to work out where warm waters halt with the aid of TTOTC, compared to without it?
            A~FF: You sure ask confounding, but insightful questions. The clues are in the poem, but there are hints in the book.

            There is another that asked about both books [i’ll need to find it again] But fenn’s answer in that only use the TOTC book, just like the one above.
            That’s at least two times Q&A’s were asked and only one book referenced.

            That is perplexing when you said; “…It could not solely be in a radio interview or blog post. He could put the new hint INSIDE his new memoirs book, TFTW,…”

            Even if your thought was remotely correct… the after the fact [ second book ] comments/Q&A’s should refer to both books then, especially when fenn had the opportunity to do it.

            As you said; “Seekers didn’t have to by the book…”
            But when fenn was asked about hints… only the TOTC is used in his answers.
            So, can see my doubt to your thought?

          • Seeker,
            ”’He could put the new hint INSIDE his new memoirs book, TFTW,…”

            Even if your thought was remotely correct… the after the fact [ second book ]”’

            Os2’s thought is not only remotely plausible, it is 100% true. Forrest does have a hint/clue inside TFTW, and it is important, if you can find it.

            Now that’s not me just trying to bust your ballz… it’s just a matter of reality and fact. Dal can confirm it to be true as well. It was a radio interview with Margi Goldsmith and were Forrest’s exact words.

          • Iron…
            I don’t recall a radio interview with Margie…she is a writer, not a radio reporter…

            I do remember once when Forrest was asked if there were clues in TFTW he responded something to the effect:
            Yes, because the poem is in the book.
            But I do not remember where that was…maybe someone here remembers…

            There were two occasions of Forrest stating there were clues in the book at the Moby Dickens Bookstore interview. The transcription for this interview is on this blog at:
            http://dalneitzel.com/2017/02/28/moby_dickens/

            My cues for where these two quotes are at is referenced in time into the video…
            That won’t work with the transcription and I have no way of leading you to the exact spot in the transcription so you’ll have to do a little searching thru that interview to find the quotes.

            One at about 38 mins in where he admits to clues in the new book…

            And another at about 42mins where he states that leaving Canada off the map in TFTW was a major clue.

            But I still don’t remember an interview with Margie…

          • You know…This issue about using only TTOTC vs. using both( including TFTW) has been discussed and I seem to remember that the end result was never really set in stone. The Margie G. radio interview has been mentioned before but where the heck is it? This is a prime example of info overload…and not keeping to the basics. The Poem, TTOTC, GE and/or a good map has been pretty much set in stone.
            And IW…have a nice trip whenever it is you leave for your journey. Bring a change of socks and stay hydrated…and don’t stay out too late at night.

          • Iron-
            That’s a great interview that many have not heard…
            That is Dorothy, the owner of Collected Works Bookstore in Santa Fe interviewing Forrest and Danny…
            Danny Bodelson was the illustrator for TFTW…he drew all those pictures that some folks believe are filled with clues..

          • IW,
            Q~ “Are there clues in this new book [tftw] that are not in TTOTC?”
            A~ “There is one clue in this book that’s not in The Thrill of the Chase. And I didn’t know this clue was in this book until it was printed”

            Well, if that is the case, you would think that the text and pics and illustration that fenn placed in the book would be known of before the printing, Right?
            The add on of the map is about the only thing left, and fenn stated another time, Canada missing from the map was a major clue, and adds, it won’t help much [ Moby Dickens video ].
            In 2014 {after the release of tftw} fenn states; excellent research material are TTOTC, GE and /or a good map… still no mention of the new book.
            Another; Forrest gets mail 9: In 2015
            Q~ “Is it an advantage to buy The Thrill of the Chase and Too Far to Walk?”
            A ~ “There are hints in my TTOTC book that can help solve the clues in the poem.” Yet another opportunity, and fenn only mentions the TOTC book.

            Fenn also stated there are no “clues” in the new book [tftw], but hints.

            Ya have to ask yourself… if this was such a big deal as many hope… a ground breaking, never before known clue in the new book, that many claim there is… why doesn’t fenn mention the new book [ tftw ] in those comments/Q&A’s and others like them? But only refers to the original book…TTOTC, even when asked after the second book was released.

            I find that very interesting…

          • Seeker: “Fenn also stated there are no “clues” in the new book [tftw], but hints.”

            (38:42) “There are clues in my new book that can help a person”
            (43:50) “There are no clues in this book but there are hints”

            I can see why we are debating.
            getting old has it’s advantages & disadvantages.

          • I’m open to having as many hints as possible to get this thing done…but as FAR as using TFTW as a reliable source for anything other than info about Fenn, not happening in my camp. Fenn has made it clear what the appropriate tools are. Maybe he will clear this murky issue up at some point…

          • Jake,
            And now you know why I keep saying fenn calls everything a clue… However, in the same interview / comments, he seems to clear up what he meant about the book {tftw} …

            Yes, this has been a big dilemma for many from the start… The book has hint to help with the clues in the poem, yet the book calls them clues.

            Then we have the useless clues debate { not in an outhouse, not in Nevada, etc. }
            Or fenn telling a phone caller it’s more than 300 miles east of Toledo… and that caller thought it was a clue. But still some use that has proof positive for a solve.

            It seem, imo, fenn is very cautious not to truly decipher what is and is not a hint or a clue… that seems to be our job. Difficult but not impossible?

            But I still find it interesting when fenn states what was not intended as a hint or clue…exmaples… WWWh is not a dam, or a flashlight and a sandwich are not clues etc. and some still revolve solves around those… and, lol, others cheer them on, saying what a great job they did analyzing and thinking about that solve.

            And yet still when fenn actually says what a major clue form the tftw book and explains why… some still say… Nope, that’s not the clue because I know for sure what the real clues is…

          • From his website:
            More Clues Revealed!
            Clue #10
            The treasure is hidden higher than 5,000 feet above sea level.
            Clue #11
            No need to dig up the old outhouses, the treasure is not associated with any structure.
            Clue #12
            The treasure is not in a graveyard
            Clue #13
            The treasure is not hidden in Idaho or Utah

            #10 is where it is & 11-13 is where it’s not.

            There’s little that is crystal clear in helping you find the treasure.
            The 9 clues in the poem must be where it is & not where it isn’t although you may have a theory for that.

            That would be really weird to have the 9 clues eliminate all areas except for one small spot.
            Hey, you never know. Right?

          • A little sarcasm there OS2? And when I was agreeing with you. huh, oh well. Okay, sarcasm, I agree, the picture is a hint to WWWH. It is a map, right? Put an “X” on the map, right? Well, I told you one way on how to put an “X” on the map. It’s an “opinion”. If you did what I suggested, Anacondas forms an “X”. The Deer Valley, (a place that is dear to him), is part of the Yellowstone Geyser system, given it’s name from the deer coming down and feeding on the salt deposits (saltpeter). The system is dormant (warm waters halt). In Anaconda there is a “hardware store”, (first clue nailed down), that use to be a depot for the BA&Pacific railroad(halt). The entrance has two arches(omega symbols), and was built by a guy named Robert NICKEL. This is an “opinion” on where to start, beginning with the pic of the map of TFTW. To say there is a canyon south of that spot, where no motorized vehicles are allowed may be too much info for you at once, so stick with my “opinion” that yes, I believe you are right that there is a hint from that pic about WWWH may be.

      • Hi Colokid — I think searchers might be better off if they ignored the “not deliberately placed” quote from Forrest. It’s not that his statement is inaccurate; it’s that nearly everyone misinterprets it, and those misinterpretations lead to false notions about what Forrest did and did not do deliberately in TTOTC. A “hint” can mean many things, but a lot of searchers’ notions of what constitutes a hint may not necessarily jive with Forrest’s.

        • Hi Zap,
          Sure, it’s possible that people are misinterpreting what he means but I think the larger mistake is trying to interpret to begin with. In other words, are people hurting themselves more by trying to come up with complex meanings to something that was said rather simply? When you know the answer to a riddle it is easy to say things that are confounding to others but are not really that complex.

          Based on many of F’s statements that folks are over-complicating, I try to work with the simplest meaning of his statements.

          There’s a fine line between staying in the box and thinking laterally….I think that’s where Forrest lives.

          • Colokid;

            Well, It looks like I am going to owe you a case of beer. Email me at SculptorJDA at aol dot com to arrange what your brand is, and/or easiest way for me to pay up.

            JDA

          • Hi JDA,
            I wondered why you weren’t commenting this weekend. Did you go searching?

          • Well JDA,
            looks like Mom won again as usual.
            Never make a bet when she is involved & you don’t know what she will do.

          • I was out of town, but not searching. I do not think that I will be able to search before my deadline of April 5th. JDA

        • Hi Colokid — there’s nothing complicated about solving WWWH; it just requires thinking the right way. People make the assumption that if they just think hard enough about what “warm” means or “warm waters” means or even “halt” means, that eventually something will click. That is a recipe for failure. You’ve got to start at the beginning — and the beginning is not the line “Begin it…” In my opinion, WWWH is unsolvable without the first stanza, just as the blaze cannot be found without solving the clues that precede it.

          • Hi Zap.

            “In my opinion, WWWH is unsolvable without the first stanza, just as the blaze cannot be found without solving the clues that precede it.”

            I disagree.

            I think the “hint” in TTOTC is the only way, unless you were lucky like my team and stumbled upon it while actually having BOTG and in the middle of a search.

            I

          • I agree with Zap. It’s entirely possible that the few hints in TTOTC point to the same beginning point as the first stanza does. Wouldn’t that be a smart way to configure this puzzle?

        • I think the unintentional hand is what is on the jacket which describes what too far to walk is for him as being approximately 10 miles walking Upstream in a creek

    • Cowlazars–

      Love your videos. What kind of coffee do you drink. Folger’s is the “richest” kind, so it might be good to drink when exploring a treasure hunt. 🙂

      • I’ve considered the mystery of who sent you that letter at great length. While he didn’t send the name of his law firm, and you didn’t show the letter, there is only one possible conclusion that may be drawn. The postmark is Albuquerque and he kinda looks like Peter Lorre.

      • Sounds like a good… Who Done It. I personally have not watched your videos mdc777 ( I did watch your last). Having said that…I can see the writing on the wall. First…why would Dal have any interest ? Have you used copies of anything from his web? As far as anyone using the blog(s) being the culprit…they have no standing.
        Here’s the kicker… did/have you ever ask(ed) Fenn’s permission to use his book(s) in promoting your videos? Just a thought….
        And NO …I am not saying it is Fenn !

        • Ken,
          Not to worry, he had me going until I realized, or asked myself, why the heck is he filming himself going to the PO Box?
          Anyways, cease n dismiss orders go through the courts and delivered mainly by the sheriffs department.
          But, I’ll give credit where deserved… one of the better fool’s day prank I’ve seen on the chase. At least it was original and not… the chest is found.

      • mdc777/cow –

        Shame on you! You got me good. I was actually feeling your pain.

        Tis the day for fooling others and yanking some chains.

      • That was absolutely excellent! You fooled me the whole way! Bravo! I was thinking maybe Maxwell House sent the letter since you said you drink Folger’s. lol. That was great! 🙂

  1. WWWH we’ve had ideas as follows:

    *Geyser/hot spring flowing into river
    Lake
    Reservoir
    *Edge of civilization-sinks-toilets-basins
    *Type of fish in streams/Fisheries
    *Dry river beds/seasonal creeks
    *Water that disappears underground
    *Warm water=friendly people

    *Warm water is expressed as “comfortable.”
    *Comfortable is expressed as “home.”
    *Warm water could be anything warmer than freezing temperature which most of us would call cold. (I believe temperature is measured in heat…while we say cold water, it is really not a good term. More heat or less heat. All water could be considered warm, warmer, warmest.)

    I am not closer to finding WWWH than I was in January. I must not be very smart. I can’t get past “begin it!” But I’m persistent and I continue to try…

    • Sheryl Lynn ~ (I believe temperature is measured in heat…while we say cold water, it is really not a good term. More heat or less heat. All water could be considered warm, warmer, warmest.)

      Why do we need to narrow down waters as in any temperature? Doesn’t that automatically force us to read the poem one way only?
      All liquid water can be considered warm in comparison to frozen or vapor… with the word halt added to the sentence it might be more effective to understand how this word usage has meaning to either an action or an end.

      What we seem to have is hoB [a place], then, “From there it’s no place for the meek, the ‘end’ is ever drawing nigh;…”
      So, is WWWH a singular clue or does ‘From there’ connect the ‘waters’ to the ‘end’? or all to be “contiguous”- touching, connected- being all, one in the same and not separate places.

      The real question is, can many of your example be used to represent it all or multiple meanings usage of the word[s]… all water, comfortable [ expression ], not frozen, etc. all at the same time, or a full interpretation of the poem?

      In short; can stanza 1 & 2 describe what hoB actually is? A place fenn feels emotionally comfortable… the poem is telling of what was supposed to his final resting place, right?

      We can also use wwwh as in the human body… a comfortable 98 degrees… and halt/stop upon death, or the action / intent for going to the special spot. In this case “end” can refer to the final stage of the intent.
      Which brings up an interesting theory that the description of the location, using multiple meanings usage of the words relate to [ or as some say layer ] not only the location, but the final act to be committed back to nature…
      Is there more than one explanation / story / journey being told of?

      * Most atrocious thing he ever did.
      * Just take the chest and leave my bones [but ruined the story].
      * I’ve done it tired and now I’m weak.
      Add to a comprehensive knowledge of geography might help… and the full picture start to evolve?

      Yep, Seeker is rambling and rumbling again.

    • Sheryl Lynn- I my self think that wwwh is a reservoir I don’t think he would say begin it where frozen water halts – if snow and ice melted its warm – the other wwwh could be is where water from a reservoir is released – and it goes down the creek and it meets with with a river mixing in with the freezing water – as you know water from a reservoir is warmer just my opinion

    • Sheryl, I read that one definition of “warm” — as it relates to
      water — is anything between 32 degrees F and 212 degrees F.
      I did find this surprising, as I always thought of water, when it
      is at a temperature of 200 degrees F, as being quite HOT,
      and not warm.

      Nonetheless, that first definition works for my solve.

      • @tighterfocus For me…when I’ve been in a jacuzzi, it is recommended that any temperature above 104 degrees is considered bad for the body. Below 104 degrees is much more “comfortable”.

        IMO – keeping the temp at around 100-102 seems to be the most “comfortable” for a jacuzzi stay.

        One could also compare to this, where someone may normally keep their faucet at while in a shower. One knows the tolerable temperature that they can withstand before it scalds, therefore “warm waters” could be a “tolerable temperature”.

        Good luck.

        Just a more pointed thought.

      • I found this, which describes what geologists call “warm waters”:

        https://books.google.com/books?id=RYuM-9nX_zMC&pg=PP112&lpg=PP112&dq=simple+warm+water+co&source=bl&ots=71wy7gmLdb&sig=eFuN6zJoyCF5NfRUYorDXqnQX0E&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjAiJe40rTTAhWBMGMKHVOCCIs4ChDoAQgjMAE#v=onepage&q=simple%20warm%20water%20co&f=false

        Warm water temp is very specific: 20C (68F)-37C (98.6F!!). Wells are cold water. Water in reservoirs can be cold or warm, depending on where and how large they are, and where in the reservoir you’re measuring the temp. Hot water moves laterally in rock… warm water is lower in elevation, cold higher (obviously). You can find the current and historical temp of waterways in most places in the states at USGS, https://nwis.waterdata.usgs.gov/nwis 🙂

        I’m not sure WWH has anything to do with temperature, though.

          • I found something else. Pinon pines and sagebrush are found in CO between 6K and 7.5K feet. 😉

          • Hi, Lady V! I think I remember seeing another searcher’s post on this site somewhere describing all of the locations in each of the four search states where various species of pinons typically grow (can’t for the life of me remember where that post is located though). Is Colorado the only state where pinons and sagebrush grow together? I would think at the very least New Mexico would also have similar conditions.

          • Can’t speak to Montana (have never spent much time there), but in the other three, sage and pinyon/juniper is a very common combo.

            K

    • Sheryl Lynn– I like your warm water comment – where warm water would be any thing warmer then freezing – now to get you out of begin it where you seem to be stuck its my opinion that your best bet would be to go with reservoir jmo

  2. given that i always diligently stay on topic (without fail, ever) ..i’ d like to hazard a brave guess and say that WWWH is ‘not!’ in Tim’s motel bathroom..

    ..but then again, i’ve been known to be wrong before, on very rare occasions
    ( ..well ok, nearly all of them – statistically speaking)

    hope this helps 🙂

      • I apologize as well Tim.
        I thought it was an intentional misspelling.

        We do have some things in common & West Yellowstone is key to solving some of the clues in the poem.
        Montana & Wyoming hold very special spots for him now & then.
        I’m not sure about the airport though.

        Just think, when you eliminate 3 states, you are bumping up your odds significantly.
        Montana – Treasure State
        1st stanza tells a hint.
        Treasures bold.

        Cheers! where everybody doesn’t know your name.
        Or your game.
        All IMO.

        • I appreciate the return J. Truly, I do plan to complete this task set before us… and be that finder. One needs to stay positive.

          I don’t intend to upset anyone in doing so.

          And I want to help others succeed too, all without giving exacting details.

          To me, the info I have, and if revealed…would make some…many….say, “Now that is interesting and very informative.”

          I ask this blog team to discount my general theories of each clue, because I cannot. Everything I’ve written has a possibility of being the clue I referenced.

          All are associated to one region.

          Other clues and hints have been found…on top of those clues….that still point to the same area….utilizing his adventures, his comments, and his reference to history to do so.

          All of these things are needed to get get the answer I have. My key word is the checks and balance to what I have understood it to be.

          I truly believe FF wants us to go “Looking for Forrest Fenn.”

          I did…..and found history a
          Long the way…a fav of FF. I did and found his adventures…something FF likes to talk about. I did and found amazing places, animal lore, a sense of excitement…many things FF has talked about, done, and felt.

          I went looking for FF to “get into his head”.

          What I didn’t do is go Looking for a cipher to figure out his poem…he said they were not needed….so I didn’t bother with them.

          I didn’t use any numbering formula to figure out some code (cipher). FF said we didn’t need to.

          I kept it as simple as I could. “Unsophisticated” as many seem to think….I did what I think FF alludes to many times. I was being imaginative.

          That is my methodology…and it worked….twice. the initial effort was a learning trip. My next trip is also a learning trip….but….my plan has the details tuned more finely….while having BOTG to even finalize this quest.

          I said I expect to fail because, statistically the odds are against me. So what you had said about my “tail”…I won’t dispute anything like that, I can only try….win or lose.

          Best of luck to you.

          • Tim: “I went looking for FF to “get into his head”. ”
            I agree this is the best method of having a chance at finding the treasure.

            Study the man, his reactions, statements, books, video’s etc…
            He has given very much of himself for us to know him & the places & experiences he’s been.

            This is something I like to do as many. Sometimes I think we do it subliminal as well. Knowing more about a person can give you an edge of what’s to be expected.

            The poem is designed for all to fail in the beginning and there have been many here that think they had it solved on their 1st try only to realize they were wrong & the learning curve is through his thoughts.

            You say: “be the chest”
            I say: “be him”
            Step back from yourself & put yourself in his shoes for a long while & you will be able to think like him. That’s the only chance we have.
            This method works very well for me with just about anyone I have info about.

            Look for Lewis & Clark & you may find the treasure.

          • Odd that you would mention L&C….that was my very first angle I took…..FF went looking for them….as did I. I think I succeed at becoming FF.

            In fact….when I first heard of this story….I went through all the L&C journals….right after I read the TTOTC….a copy that wasn’t my own.

            I did find L&C and they played a good role in my searching. I would say that I would not have gotten this far if not understanding waterways because I am literally a “city boy”. I pretty much was an infant playing in a playground that I knew I would get hurt in….because a lack of skills for a wilderness adventure..

            The forest is meek to me….it could be like that for everyone…not all….but most. The RMs has forests that are very “carefully guarded” by Mother Earth an Nature literally rules….Then there are those that we enjoy because of the beauty ithey afford. FF was an expert…I had to trust him for my safety at a certain level. He knew there would be people out there investigsting thus…like me. He thought of me, I literally thought.

            I personally despised camping as a kid….very “meek” in my ways. I’ve learned that I didn’t need to be only after many years of not going…..but learning of them. I’ve gone camping….3-4 times in the past 40+ years. Recently…2 yrs ago…for this quest.

            If there is someone greener than I out here….then truly I am amazed….*smiles*….

            But I still believe I have just as good as chance at being succesful as any other. Actually, I think I have it better than most, because of a very similar path FF and I have both led. I live and played near a creek when I was a kid, so I knew slot about the habitats of a creek then. But what was uncanny…were these….

            Both served in military
            Both live an adventure
            Both had cancer
            Both went through chemo
            Both love history
            Both love art
            Both live in SW
            Both think outside the box
            Both love a to be part of a good game that includes thinking and history
            Both love a good treasure hunt, evidently….*smiles*….

            Believe you me…I’ve gotten in his head pretty well. I’m now moved onto trying to visual what he thinks on where he physically placed the chest….Now you understand my use of remote viewing…and it’s unorthodoxy use in normal human life. I’m definitely not afraid to do something at least once….. I’ll do it twice if it was fun……LOL…..three or more if worth the effort…everyone loves the SW movies…..case in point….LOL

            The “mind games” I am playing… in my own mind seem to be paying off for me.

            :o)

            Good luck to you.

  3. Consider this!

    First Instruction: “Begin it” . . . “Where warm waters halt”

    Where = 5+8+5+9+5 = 32 = 5
    Warm = 5+1+9+4 = 19 = 1
    Waters = 5+1+2+5+9+1 = 23 = 5
    Halt = 8+1+3+2 = 14 = 5

    Where + warm + waters + halt = 5+1+5+5 = 16

    Begin it = 16th letter of line 5, the “M” in “Warm”, or possibly, the letter directly after the “M”, the “W” in “Waters.” This distinction might be critical, and/or it might be irrelevant. The combination of words used to generate this point might be correct, or they might be incorrect; but, really, these issues are small compared to the real understanding needed to proceed from this concept to a finished solution.

    What is “IT”? What are we to “BEGIN”? How would one use “IT” once the rest of the clues are deciphered? How can solution steps be internally validated by information supplied by Fenn? I personally don’t believe that the puzzle can be solved without clear and full answers to these fundamental questions. Anyone trying to solve this puzzle haphazardly will almost certainly fail.

    Good luck to all!

    • Not too sure about your numbering system…
      Seems that W would be greater than 5
      How is E and W the same?

      This seems even more confusing than taking each stanza and using the two first letters of the last word to come up with an anogram!

      Or

      first stanza first line to come up with a date of death for FF daddy!

      You guys think out side the box for sure!

      I’d jump into the box and hide, but remember my flashlight so to see the bugs…and leave the box top open (panic) because I can’t breathe!

      • Simple substitution.
        A=1
        B=2
        C=3
        D=4
        E=5
        F=6
        G=7
        H=8
        I=9
        J=10=1
        K=11=2
        L=12=3
        M=13=4
        N=14=5
        O=15=6
        P=16=7
        Q=17=8
        R=18=9
        S=19=1
        T=20=2
        U=21=3
        V=22=4
        W=23=5
        X=24=6
        Y=25=7
        Z=26=8

        Hope that answers the number question you posed.

        Good luck.

    • iowaengr,

      How can I consider this if I don’t know why the number you have to match the letters work? How does W = 5 etc…
      Are these numbers correct or not? I mean, if off by one letter your down the rabbit hole, right? So, I dare say it’s a big issue.

      You also said; ‘ Anyone trying to solve this puzzle haphazardly will almost certainly fail.’
      Well, thanks for that tidbit of logic… have you answered those questions you presented as you seem to imply without them we got notta. If you have you must have solve the poem, right?
      And, If you haven’t how do you know they are so important or a must to have the answer to?

      I’m all for hearing theories, but you’re not saying much of anything for this dumb guy to follow the thought process.

      • Hi, Seeker.

        My opener, “Consider this,” was not meant to do anything other than get the reader’s attention. Nothing more. No slight to you, or anyone else intended. Apologize if I offended you in any way.

        Firstly, I have developed a process to generate mathematically derived coordinates from letters used within the poem itself. No external information is required to generate solutions. Whether any of my solutions are correct remains to be seen as I have not been able to investigate any of them yet. Will be heading out West at some point this summer to look at some spots BOTG.

        As you point out, a one letter difference is crucial to any single set of computations, but a single letter difference is not crucial to the development of the solution process itself. As my intention is not to publish finished solutions, I left that information vague intentionally. Rather, my intent is to spur others to look at the poem less as a collection of words than as a collection of numbers. The words tell the reader how to use the numbers, not where to go in the real world. Very different lens to look through.

        Good luck.

        • But, in my opinion, your numbers are wrong. Those numbers are not in the poem. Actually, you do have: B,C,J,T,Y correct. Do you really think f would make it that simple as to actually use the letters in their original numbered slot? That is definitely not him. Look at the word gaze. Look at line 20 carefully, how do you read that line. If you are taking the numbers route for letters, all you need do is ask. It is a tough sell beings how there is no “X”, but it can be done. All from poem. The correct numbers will answer all the situations, and give the coordinates.
          You are on your way though, seeing that you take the values to their simplest form, like 10=1,11=2, etc…(actually, 11=2, or to, or too) is something that will give you confidence. Oh, and “X” = 9. Good luck.

          • Yes it will Come charlie if we are playing Craps.
            If we take the map & flip it 45 deg’s then change opacity to 63% then overlay the pic on pg 99 & change the Hue/Saturation levels to 5, 7 & 9 respectively & then change it to gray scale I think you will see a big X over….

            Good luck & have lots of fun with your Photoshop technique.
            I thought I read something by F that he didn’t learn it cause there was no need.

            Paint by numbers is nice for kids.

          • Thanks for the feedback, Charlie. Not sure exactly what you are referring to with respect to gaze. Line 20 provides one of several opportunities for answer validation because future tense is implied with the use of to be, “And now I’m weak.”

            BTW, you seem to have made an incorrect assumption regarding my letter list. I see simple substitution as the means to show the puzzler that math has been used. I believe that it is sufficient to construct the blaze, then the blaze can be used to revalue the letters as you suggest is needed. By varying the initial assumptions one can generate different blazes, or drawings. Possible answers can then be validated or rejected by mathematical, linguistic and GPS analysis.

            In closing, even though we are approaching the solution methodology slightly differently, it’s good to know that there are others out there giving their calculators a workout. Good luck.

          • gaze or “g” as “e”,
            line 20 , some all and l is ten go od. The numbers are in the poem, just have to follow the instructions.
            This is about forrest fenn. To you, forrest fenn = 38 and 21. No real correlation to anything. To me, forrest fenn = 14 and 8. Pages in the book, a 22 degree rainbow(rainbow halo), among other things. Tom Terrifics 22:).
            If you’ve found a correlation by using the original values, that’s great. I just think it would be slightly more difficult. Back to the poem, really look it over, see what you come up with. Good luck, and hey, it’s my opinion so may be totally wrong…

          • I think I understand what you are doing, Charlie, but I am unsure about several aspects of your methodology. First problem I see is:

            W is E
            W it H
            W ar M
            W he R (e)
            W at T (er)

            This is just one single letter that could have several different values depending upon which you like. Of these, I would lean toward W is E as the strongest. Not coincidentally, W is E validates simple substitution as being a useful concept to play with. As does L is TEN.

            W = 23 = 5
            E = 5

            L = 12 = 3
            T+E+N = 20 + 5 + 14 = 2+5+5 = 12 = 3

            I think this puzzle starts with simple substitution and progresses from there. But math is not the primary point here. DRAWING is. I think that the person who reproduces Fenn’s drawing will be the one who nets the prize because it will provide the key needed to unlock the exact location of the chest. Just my opinion. I, too, could be way off base with my assertion.

            Good luck to all.

          • iowaengr,
            Assertion splains it all.

            I hope you digits realize there are billions of combos for what your doing?
            Na, trillions.

          • Hi “iowa”…..you had commented:

            “Forrest = 14 and Fenn = 8.”

            In Numerology – numbers with two digits or more – all digits are added together. Single digits are represented as the number they are (0-9).

            If you were to correctly use “14” – it would actually be consider “1+4” which equals “5”….not “14”.

            I’m not in the camp that FF did anything like this, but I have studied Numerology and the meanings of numbers.

            Number 14:
            Number 14 is a karmic number and these people need to learn independence, self-initiative, unity and justice. Their great need in life is to achieve balance, harmony, temperance and prudence. If they act cautiously they can be fortunate in money matters or changes in business. 14’s have the inner-motivation to made a success of anything they put their energy toward.

            Number 14 is one of everlasting movement and brings trials and dangers from a great variety of experiences. These people sometimes experiment for the sake of experience. Such behaviour may lead to chaos, but their aim is to try for progressive change and the final joy of renewal and growth.
            http://numerology-thenumbersandtheirmeanings.blogspot.com/2011/05/number-14.html

            Number 5
            Character:
            The adventurer, courageous, passionate, responsive, quick to grasp and learn, sympathetic, great traveller and/or explorer.

            Negative Traits:
            Negatively, Number 5 relates to being rash, irresponsible, dislikes confinement and routine, inconsistent, unreliable, thoughtless, restless, non-committal, inactivity, stagnation, fear of change, rigid in thought, lacks vitality.
            http://numerology-thenumbersandtheirmeanings.blogspot.com/2011/03/number-5-ruler-mars-said-to-be.html

            Number 8
            Character:
            The Boss, powerful drive to succeed, the ability to rise above aversions and adversity, good decision-making, intensely active, seizes opportunities, takes control, wants security, achieves success.

            Negative:
            The negative aspects of number 8 are a tendency towards a superiority complex, greed, tactlessness and domineering, sneering, condescending and superior.

            In Tarot – Numerology, is used quite extensively and can reveal many things.

            Good luck.

          • lol, Jake, all in fun, don’t get so testy. It’s not my fault you see the end by line 16. Have jury duty today, so I’m probably a little testy. Maybe I will figure out what you see in only 16 lines. At least you’re in the right state.(man, I got some research stuff you would like… ) Sentinels and Med wheels. Ring a bell…?

          • Yea charlie,
            We got that in common.
            The Treasure State.
            Maybe one of us will hit the lottery with the winning numbers.

          • W is e and fo,
            warm waters (h) alternate.
            with is an instruction
            where=w (here) here is the instruction
            treasures= tre as (u r e)= tre as e.
            what you get from poem:
            a=7,b=2,c=3,d=1,e=3,l=1,w=7,x=9, w=e and fo, w=efft, bl as e, s b o, wy is it, begin with Epsom, ht’ll be (add le up),. You can figure the whole alphabet with that info.

          • tim, as far as the “key” goes, you are right. Forrest Fenn = 5 degrees 8/22.
            Sun’s elevation on 8/22, at coordinates yields a shadow from “Y”. “Y” = 7′. Light hitting a “y” stick at 5 degrees yields an 80′ shadow.

          • Hi, Tim.

            I understand the numerology you described. For clarification, the “14” was not my number; it was Charlie’s unreduced raw total based upon an alphabet derived from the poem itself (not simple substitution). He gave an unreduced total that would allow me to reproduce his work (I assume). My response was directed to Charlie just to see if he might want to compare notes on an idea that is his to begin with.

            As you say, working with numbers is possibly harder than working with linguistics only. But all searchers must make conscious choices about how to solve the puzzle. The first decision that we all must make is whether to investigate the words or whether to convert the words to numbers and see what happens. To me, Fenn hints that numbers are in play.

            For example: look at the four corners of the poem. Reading from lower left, CCW, the letters are IDEA.

            Now look at the four letters that comprise the loop beginning/ending lines 2/23, from lower left, CW, the letters are I ADD. In simple substitution, I=9, A=1, D=4, thus
            I = A+D+D . . . 9 = 1+4+4. Yep.

            Going further, beginning with the “I” in “With”, line 2, looped with similar places, lines 2/23 moving CW: I SEU

            I=9 S=1 E=5 U=3
            I = S+E+U . . . 9 = 1+5+3. Yep, again.

            Also, the anagram for this is I USE.

            Interesting stuff, even if you don’t want to play with it yourself, I dare say. But stepping back to look at the big picture again . . .

            To me, there is not one single line or word in the poem that can be definitively located on a map. I can make conceptually valid arguments for many, many places given enough creative latitude. But with numbers, they either work, or they don’t. Further, the simplest, most accurate way to lead a searcher to the chest is through a coordinate. If there is a coordinate hidden in the poem, then letters must be converted to numbers in some way before the searcher can hope to find the chest. Perhaps someone can locate the box via some fantastic and imaginative research coupled with some fine legwork, but I don’t believe that I can be the person to do so. But, if Fenn used math to hide a coordinate, then I like my chances of being able to decipher his system given enough time to play with the poem. And, to do it successfully, I don’t need any external information until after an answer has been generated. Now that’s the kind of low-threshold thinking that I can get into. Imagining what a valid puzzle construction technique might be and then seeing if I can make it work is more up my alley than trying to determine the singularly correct place where warm water halts on a map.

            Regards, and best of luck!

          • Hi “iowa”…you wrote:

            “To me, there is not one single line or word in the poem that can be definitively located on a map.”

            I agree with this, as the poem is masked with the true meanings.

            I do agree that there is one word that will change the way someone looks at the poem….FF said there is……I found one and after analysis…..would also change other views if spoken publicly.

            Of course, I won’t…..but it took me four years to find that word.

            Is it the word FF talks about being the “key”…..it seems to fit nicely.

            We’ll see.

            Again – I didn’t use any numbers to get to that decision either.

            So I just think the play of numbers is a rabbit hole you should get out of now. It just isn’t worth your time to be so complex with the poem.

            FF said it best….”don’t mess with my poem”.

            You and others are trying to force fit a cipher……or using – IMO – “Pareidolia” – a psychological phenomenon in which the mind responds to a stimulus (an image or a sound) by perceiving a familiar pattern where none exists.

            Keep it simple….”unsophisticated” and you will have much better luck.

            Take a chance on a spot and see what you can find…..without longitudes and latitudes to persuade you to do something too complex.

            Just be yourself…..that is all you need….>FF would want you to be this way too.

            Good luck!

          • Hi, Charlie. I’m having trouble with some of your equalities. Assuming that you might prefer to discuss my findings privately. I have a spreadsheet based on your alphabet with my verification tree. Am willing to send it to you, if you would like to have it. If not, no big deal.

            After working with your idea a little bit, it feels like an attempt to get perfect math out of the ether. This can be done, as I’ve used word algebra to do it multiple times (with multiple correct answers, BTW). This setback led me to look for alternate solution methodologies. I have a process that might be of interest to you, but am reluctant to post more about it publicly at this time.

            Either way, best of luck to you!

            dandhbedell@hotmail.com

          • iowaengr, I will email you shortly. At work right now, give me a little, I will right before end of today.

          • No, Sir. US Naval Academy, Mechanical Engineer. Live in Davenport these days. You?

          • I grew up in Cedar Rapids and went to Iowa State University, before moving out to Colorado now. My parents and in-laws still in the CR area though, and I usually find myself back in the Hawkeye State at least a couple of times each year! I have plenty of ME graduate friends from ISU, but I can’t think of any who have settled down in Davenport, though that’s a nice town too!

  4. Warm waters are certainly halting this morning in Colorado. Due to a fresh snowstorm, I-25 is closed down between Colorado Springs & Denver, along with many other highways, and they’re not letting anyone go over Raton Pass (on the NM border) without chains. So much for an early Spring thaw this year! 🙁

    • In all the years I lived there, I don’t think I can remember a year when we didn’t get a big heavy wet snow in late March or early April. There was always a storm sometime around my birthday, much to my dismay, lol. 🙂

      • Very true, WY Girl. It’s been surprisingly regular over the 7 years that I’ve lived here. I was hoping that maybe this year would be an exception… but no dice!

        Today is at least better than the end-of-March storm that we got last year. We had gotten 2 feet of snow in town and I had to leave my car buried in a snowdrift a block away from my house!

        I hope that you have a Happy Upcoming Birthday! 🙂

      • Hi WY girl…I’m in SLC and we got hit with a March snow storm yesterday. When is your Bday? Mine is the 27th of April. Can’t wait to dig into that kake. HBD!

      • My b-day is the 10th. I’m actually going to go to Santa Fe for the 3 days prior to my birthday. It’s my birthday present from my hubby. Hopefully the weather will be decent while we are there!
        Now if I could just meet Forrest in person while I’m there that would be the icing on the cake and the best b-day present ever! I’d love to get my copy of TTOTC autographed. (You never know maybe I’ll run into him walking down Palace Ave or something. Stranger things have happened!)
        Hope everyone stays dry, warm, and safe in all these spring storms!

        • WY Girl-
          Fennboree starts on the 9th of June…8.2 miles east of Santa Fe…
          Forrest came out last year…maybe he will this year…you should plan on attending and bring your book..

          For more info about Fennboree…look here:
          http://fennboree.org

    • Cant go north or south, not even west. Just here greeting the snowflakes with my hand. Wind is can make such an effort.

    • Yes, warm waters halting today in Santa Fe also. A solid 5″ so far and still coming down north of town. There go all the fruit tree blossoms….

  5. So dal,
    Since you seem to have developed a friendship with FF, can you let us searchers know how his health is? Many of us see him as a grandfather figure. Have you ever talked to his grandkids to get their reaction to the Quest?

  6. Hey hunters! I think Forest might have meant Boiling River Yellowstone MT(where warm waters halt, right on border) Clue 1..Gardiner Canyon (Gardner river joins the much bigger and colder Yellowstone river). I believe that’s our starting point.. Next clue no.2 Brown died in Gardiner Canyon(Put in below the home of Brown)…No.3 and take it in the canyon down (Lava Creek Canyon)..No.4 there’ll be no paddle up your creek (Lava Creek Trail no need for a paddle to walk the trail). Next clue no.5, Look quickly down, your quest to cease…u will see observation peak (observe=Look at). Next clue no.6, So hear me all and listen good, Amphitheater Springs on your left… No.7 Your effort will be worth the cold, above is Ice Lake (cold)…No.8 If you are brave, Wolf Lake nearby (brave) and connects to Ice Lake… Also, Grebe Lake is right nearby and Forrest Fenn used to fish there multiple times a year. Last clue no 9. and in the wood …hmm thats Lake of the Woods maybe.Otherwise, the treasure is buried or hidden in a pine tree.One more important thing is that Grebe lake has 8.023 ft surface elevation.Thanks Google and thanks in advance! Hello from Greece!!! GG > FF

    • Yes Grebe Lake is ff fav fishing spot with tree that has fallen down now. Hope no one has to crawl into that old rotten piece of wood. You will literally be “in the wood” my friend! (Panic! Breathe!)

    • Hi GeoGeorge,
      Many, myself included, agree with Boiling River. And most of those had been there, myself included.

      We had to leave before I was satisfied, so I am still using that as WWWH.

      One thing about your tentative solution; I think you have the Brown clue ahead of the canyon down clue.

      fyi our solutions diverge dramatically after Brown.

      Is “meek” included in your clues/solve?
      Joseph

      • It’s not included in my solution and I think is for the rhyme with the word creek…But if so, Norris Geyser (discovered by Joseph Meek) is ‘meek’ – Realgar Creek (realgar means ruby of arsenic). Otherwise, we are going to be in some place that looks dangerous..Thanks Joseph and Sheryl for your replies!Good Luck and have fun to all!

  7. Hello

    What if WWWH doesn’t refer to actual warm water, but a stream/river/road/trail with a NAME suggesting “warm waters” … like, Warm Springs Road, Warm Springs Creek, Warm Springs Trail?

    • Great thought Kimber. I have tried starting at several such roads and not developed a proper solve for them, but maybe the next road I find will work out.
      And I’ve tried following roads the same way for Canyon Down.

      Maybe warm water and canyon refer to places other than water and canyons.

      • I thought of those too but then I remembered that the clues have to last 1000 years and road signs don’t last, names of places change so I decided to stick to the geography.

    • Hey Tim,
      I couldn’t find any airport with the letters WYP. So I’m lost, did you mean WYS?
      Maybe just the state will do.
      Thanks, just curious.

      • eaglesabound,

        WYP could be the City Code for Winnipeg, in the Manitoba Province of Canada. ( Could be helpful, IMO.)

        Tim: Please correct me if I’m wrong about the definition of the ‘letters.’

        SL

      • WYP is West Yellowstone Park…the city. I don’t know the call letters of the airport…I don’t believe it is necessary to know.

        That airport is located to the North of the main town…use GE and zoom into the town….it is a nice little town…I had to go through it when I went into YNP….

        Good luck.

    • Tim, a slight correction to your post about Fenn’s pilot’s license. Unless his licensed was revoked by the FAA, Forrest Fenn will have his license for life. What I suspect is that he decided not to renew his medical. It is also possible for him to have sold his aircraft and rented a plane if his medical was current. So, I’m pretty certain his airman certificate is still with him but the medical isn’t.
      Good luck.

      • So it is still a possibility that he still does fly.

        PHEW! An airport can still be a plausible starting point.

        :o)

        Hole filled.

        Shoot Harrison Ford is old, called a tower with incorrect info, and just today he can still fly.

        Hmmm….I didn’t know about the “life” flying thing…interesting.

        Thanks and good luck to you.

        Next hole?

        • Tim, once yo, you lose or give up your medical you may not act as pilot in command of any aircraft . So, I am thinking he may have left his medical lapse which, in effect, makes the airman certificate null and void. Usually, getting a 3rd class medical can be a big pain in the arse if you have had cancer and there usually comes a point as we age where it just isn’t worth the crap you need to go through to get it renewed.

          Can’t wait to hear the news and story of the success searcher. Perhaps it will be you!

          • So he doesn’t fly, but could have chartered a flight and the drove out of the airport.

            We know he drove. That is a given. Where he drove from is only pertinent to the search….if it contains some sort of explanation of WWWH.

            My example….a building that could be on the edge of civilization (metaphorically I guess would be more appropriate here) is a viable starting point. Airports usually are on the outskirts of town/”edge of civilization”….and can be a place WWWH.

            So my theory could be true.

            Flying now becomes irrelevant….but it relevant if associated to figuring out a starting point.

            You know what I mean…..macro to micro in some weird way too.

            Cheers!

  8. Things that really standout to me are where warm waters halt, heavy loads and water high and go in peace. The parks full name is Waterton-Glacier Int’l Peace park.Warm waters halt could be the boundary or gate to glacier national park. Also heavy loads and water high could mean waterton and go in peace could be another clue the name.
    Good luck and safe searching everyone.
    Lets find it for Randy!
    LJ

    • “Lets find it for Randy!”

      I was thinking out of respect ( possibly avoid some confusion) should any new searchers come along named Randy, they should opt for some other nickname

      Lets find it for Fenn!

  9. II’M WWH at the CD. FF said WWH many places in the Rocky mountains, and most of them are N of Santa Fe. Canyons all begin at the CD. But IMO this is not the first clue, but the beginning of the second clue. I believe the first clue is in the first stanza and contains both the key word and a word that is key. The first stanza provides both the information needed to locate the correct canyon down, (which is also the correct wwwh) as well as the information needed to interpret the rest of the clues. The reason the little girl from India can’t get past the first two clues is because only the first two clues can be identified using MAP features without further investigation. This leaves seven clues that must be directional in nature and precise in interpretation. I believe I have discovered the method F used to provide the directional vectors. I can prove this of course….but to provide that knowledge would be to risk sharing it with someone else that has correctly located the Beginning, but has not figured out the other seven clues. Having said that, precise interpretation of the intended message is needed, and as of yet, I have not succeeded in that endeavor. I have been “there” 3 times, and I spent a total of about 9 days actually searching. I must admit to running out of interpretations…and a twinge of doubt creeping in about my first two clues …but the method and nature of the directional vectors is apparent and proovable, so I remain stuck on trying to interpret the results precisely,, and in my current location.

    • I dunno,
      IMO she can’t get “closer” because once the little girl from India with just a map and the poem cannot get physically closer (a significant relative distance closer anyway) to the chest..

  10. I’m having difficulty wading through the dichotomy between concepts (and these are NOT direct quotes, just what I remember my impression was of things said) like “a deep thinking treasure hunter could figure the clues out” and “people are over complicating the clues”/”ask a child”/”you don’t need to know Latin, bible passages, have a cipher, etc”- just the poem and a map. So… The answers need deep thought and out of the box thinking yet can’t be over complicated. Lol. I am thoroughly impressed by those of you at this puzzle for years now. I roll riddles around in my mind until I figure them out, and this one isn’t easy! My TOTT book is on the way… I hope that helps!

  11. There is of course, the E. C. Waters. The passenger vessel that was abandoned by its owner (E. C. Waters) on Yellowstone Lake and is now a wreck on the shore of Stevenson Island.

    Perhaps WWWH is the place where the E.C. Waters met it’s final resting place on the shore of Stevenson Island…Several searchers have tried following that angle…

    Some have even tried using the location of the historic Lake Hotel where the E.C. Waters Boiler was taken and used to heat the old hotel for many years.

    or perhaps it is the final resting place of Mr. Waters himself…but that apparently is Fond du Lac Wisconsin so it seems unlikely…but perhaps Wisconsin Mike can check it out…

    For more on the E. C. Waters business in Yellowstone National Park follow this link:
    http://billingsgazette.com/news/state-and-regional/wyoming/e-c-waters-left-to-rot-in-yellowstone-national-park/article_1e5b84e8-8cf4-5505-857b-bfdd9cfe070b.html

    • Neat article, dal! Do you like Clive Cussler novels? A lot of your posts like this one remind me a lot of them. I used to have them all read, but then he came out with about 30 new ones, and I fell behind!

      • I could never get into Clive’s books. “Fantastic fiction” wrapped around a central figure he named “Dirk” was just too much testosterone letting for me to absorb. I can usually get into a good historical adventure no matter how over the top it is…there is just something about Clive and Dirk that bore me…

        • Haha, I can totally understand that perspective, dal! It’s probably the reason why the majority of Cussler books that I read and enjoyed was when was in high school. I also probably stopped reading them because now that I think of it, the plots fell into a noticeably repetitive formula. Still, your stories of searching the shipwrecks of galleons and submarines evoked some fun, nostalgic memories for me of reading those pulp adventure novels!

  12. Speaking of Yellowstone…
    Another place folks have considered and my personal favorite, is Madison Junction…
    This is where the Firehole River and the Gibbon River meet and form the Madison….
    To put it another way…this is the place where two warm rivers…the Firehole and the Gibbon…end…or halt…or stop…
    and one of Forrest’s favorite rivers, the Madison, begins…

    Begin IT where warm waters halt…
    So begin the Madison where the warm waters of the Firehole and the Gibbon halt…
    or Begin your search on the Madison where the Gibbon and Firehole stop….

    I can’t imagine a better place for WWWH..
    But other’s disagree…
    There are as many arguments against this place in the minds of naysayers as there are arguments for it…

    You can find out more about Madison Junction here:
    http://www.gonorthwest.com/Wyoming/Yellowstone/madison/madison.htm

    • Didn’t F say he went there a few years back to his favorite secret swimming spot but it wasn’t secret any longer-others around oblivious to how special it was to him, and that his grand kids didn’t seem appreciate it like he did at one time. Don’t know if that took the special out of it that it once had.

      And his favorite fishing hole/lake,-his tree had fallen over and his colorful fishing flies stuck in the old tree could still be found-could be end of his rainbow? No longer high over head but bowed down low as time has a way of bringing us all down to earth.

    • On Dal’s quote “I can’t imagine a better place for WWWH”…most would agree.

      But maybe that’s not the right path we are to look for. Maybe we aren’t trying to answer what’s the best place for WWWH. IT doesn’t have to be the best.

          • Lol. If I recall correctly, ff put you off the “west” clue too. IMO, he meant it. Fenn piloted a jet fighter after all. In any event, we both recognize it is very difficult to move someone off their solution.

          • Yes…I was exasperated at his definition…according to Forrest everything is either northerly or southerly…no westerly or easterly…???
            This is what I mean by getting to know him…who would guess that to Forrest a heading of 271 degrees is a northerly direction…

          • Hi Dal, thanks for everything! Just after your video ends and before Master Fenn’s begins, a map appears. The dotted line come down from Colorado and loops around Chaco. Do you know what this line represents? Or the map that that is being showcased? Thanks for your Help! I think it shows up around 6min into video.

          • Those maps show up better on the full story…which is somewhere else…
            There is a map in front of DG’s family search at the very beginning of that video too…
            You will see the line come down from the north to Yellowstone NP where they were searching. That line just represents Nicks path to our search areas…He flew into Bozeman…or Missoula… and the line actually comes down from the airport to his first stop with Marti and her team at Yellowstone…
            The second map illustrates Nicks journey from Yellowstone down to Tres Piedras, NM where I was searching. Note that the illustrator mislabeled the location as “Carson National Park”…no such park…supposed to be Carson National Forest…

            The story was intended for showing in Australia. So the maps help viewers who are unaccustomed to the layout of the Rocky Mountain states get a handle on the various locations where the story was filmed.

            I don’t remember if there was another map showing our trip to Santa Fe to interview Forrest and then another showing the jaunt out to the Chama Ranch, the site of the first Fennboree..
            All those things were elements in the story…
            Nick did a great job…

          • Thanks Dal! Good luck in Yellowstone. I will be poking around in Chaco Canyon. I am fascinated by the breadth of these ruins and most people don’t understand or know about the sophistication of the Anasazi people. Good Luck to All Searchers! Be safe and HAVE FUN!

          • In aviation it’s kind of the same thing for VFR flight altitudes but east or west. If you’re flying a heading of 0-179 degrees, you’re heading east and should be flying at an odd altitude +500 feet (or just odd 1000′ for IFR). West is 180-359 and is flown at even altitudes

    • Yep, I agree this is a great starting place but then there are two canyons down, both of which leave me clueless and scratching my head after following. I’ll be in the greater Yellowstone area July 2-July 11 woo hoo!

      • I think many, many searchers have thought of the Firehole, Fairy Creek, Fairy Falls, etc. My concern is that, if the treasure is secreted in YNP, I see a whole lot of problems with finding anything of value there and trying to get it out. Mr. Fenn certainly thought about those things in his master plan. The poem is skillfully to point us to the park but I feel that a diversion to get folks to see the beauty of the place. More and more my hunch goes back to New Mexico or southern Colorado. It IS ironic that Ojo Caliente is found in both locations. I sure hope one of you finds this soon. I would love to see the cards we all are not showing 🙂

    • I’m with you on this area Dal. My first thoughts were the Firehole at Madison. Hope to be in the area in late May or June. Looking forward to a good adventure. Never been that far west. Wish I could make Fennboree, but too far to make two trips that far (1200 miles) to SF then WYP (1, 700 miles) one way. Enjoy keeping up with the Chase.

  13. In the vlog linked at the top it is suggested that first you must know what warm waters is before you can start thinking about halt.
    But I would take one more step back, first what is warm?
    If I go outdoors into 20 degree winter chill and then get into a fishing hut that is 40 degrees it will feel toasty and warm. Warm is a relative term.
    Like so much of the poem, three words here that can be defined so many different ways.
    Or back up one more word, I am not 100% sure I know the meaning of “it”.
    I am feeling pretty good about “begin” and “where”.

    • I’m not sure I agree that you have to know what warm waters is because Forrest said you don’t need any specialized knowledge to solve the puzzle . To understand what constitutes warm water vs cold water is specialized knowledge in my opinion. He said all you need for the winning solve is the book and a good map. A good map doesn’t differentiate water temperatures and neither does his book. Just my humble opinion, for what it’s worth.

      • IMO…Warm waters halt when you go upstream as a rule. Upstream usually means an increase in elevation and closer to melting snow line. Warm water transition zone is where trout like to mingle since food is relatively more plentiful but it’s not too far back to preferred cooler water. A deep river pool can be a temporary cooling off point for a trout if the trip back to cool water can’t be achieved during this part of the day. Waters can get cooler downstream but upstream is the norm. Warm spring inlets to cool streams mean a tasty treat in an unusually short distance from a trout’s preferred non-feeding cool water. Less effort moving to obtain food also help trout get bigger than average near warm spring inlets.

        • Mensan, I understand what you’re saying, but my point is that the information you just shared is “specialized knowledge”. Fenn said you don’t need specialized knowledge to solve the puzzle. So when Fenn mentioned that a girl in India with the poem and a good map could get close to the treasure, do you think he expects her to have that kind of knowledge about mountain stream temperatures and trout living habits? I don’t think so. I am no genius myself, but I’m no dummy either, and I don’t have any experience or knowledge when it comes to trout or mountains or the water in said mountains.

          I appreciate your thoughts though, even if we disagree. 🙂

      • Kimber: “To understand what constitutes warm water vs cold water is specialized knowledge in my opinion.”

        I guess we all have specialized knowledge then.

        • Jake, yes … it sounds like you do have specialized knowledge. The next question is, will that knowledge help you find the treasure or will it lead you in the wrong direction? (Just playing devil’s advocate. I do appreciate your comment:))

          • Kimber,
            We all have specialized knowledge.
            Being able to differentiate between cold, hot & warm waters is not one of them.

            This may fall into the instinct or extinct category passed on to us thousands if not millions of years ago.

            That warm shower felt comfortable until i got out.

  14. I am completely lost with the WWWH. Are we thinking WWWH is a hot spring because FF mentioned his bathing spot? He mentioned that in his blog and in the book TFTW not in the TTOTC. He said we need the TTOTC not TFTW.

    Having said that, in TTOTC, when he was talking about the bronze being cold to the touch because the kid’s hands were warm could be a hint to something like a warm water. Also I cannot skip the mention of the bathtub in Olga chapter.

    Also, since the word “halt” is in present tense, I would think, whatever the thing that does the halting, it does it always. So if it is a train station, it must be an active train station and must be active for years to come to make the poem valid.

  15. You know that old cattle watering hole on the North side of the property? On my ranch, that would be the closest thing to WWWH. That is because every year in about December it dries up and it stays dry until the Spring rains get heavy in May. Then the cattle will have WW for several months, until the Warm Water Halts once again.

    IMHO the whole question of WWWH is so greatly exaggerated that it has successfully led a great, great many people on their own respective wild goose chase(s). Not looking for an argument. Just trying to be helpful…

  16. Will definitely be back soon , leave the pet at home this time . Bring the wife if I can get her to come with me. Cold and snow don’t really bother me , I can freeze an Eskimo out, grizzleys do bears just seem to be everywhere I go, if you’ve ever smelled bear breath in your face, you would understand. Not scared have great respect for them, I think we just love the same places. I love Indians to

  17. I read on a forum, that a reporter asked Forrest how a searcher would know if they have the correct location for where warm waters halt. Forrest replied

    “There in lies the puzzle!”

    I have not been able to confirm this quote. Does anyone have the source?
    Thanks,
    astree

  18. This will be my take on whomever finds the treasure…..secret it away for a time….and then approach FF with a relic from the trove…in which FF will visually know the search has ended….but will then take further directions from the seeker….and allow the finder to notify the public for credit worthy bragging rights at their pace….not FF….and he’ll enjoy every minute of it…LOL

    So in truth…you could be right….I know I wouldn’t tell anyone…until I know I am legally covered in ALL directions.

    I already have an infrastructure in place if it ever happens.

    After all…a boy scout should be prepared, huh?

    Cheers!

      • Were those his words? Or just someone speculating him saying this?

        I wonder if FF read something on these blogs…..oooooo……maybe one of us have gotten to a point where he feels the quest is coming to an end….

        The excitement is building, huh???!!!

        I’m starting to feel all tingly.

        LOL

        • maybe you got a little astringent in your eyes by mistake…or maybe you need to get some fresh air Tim.
          No need to rush this Chase…it is not ending any time too soon unless Fenn gives it away for some reason.
          And I doubt that…
          The person that may be zeroing in I bet does not share details on the blogs or talks about going to get it soon. Just my pinion…

          • *deeply breathes*….okay….better now….

            :o)

            I actually was better….right after I posted it and realized this….

            If FF did say this…or something like this…it is only a rehash of what he said in the past.

            Of course we already know people have come within 200’….AND would be the case again with a new season of searchers heading out.

            Woohoo…just some more of his old fashioned Fennology quips to keep our excitement up…..and his chuckles a bit louder….

            *Smiles*

            Isn’t this fun!!!!???

    • Here’s my take on the one who finds the treasure:

      CRAZED MAN IN SANTA FE. 4-1-2017

      A crazed, screaming, wild eyed man ran into the city square of Santa Fe yesterday morning. He was clutching gold nuggets and jewels in both hands, and shouting the words “As I have gone alone in there!”

      Police verification apprehended the man immediately, and he was taken into custody for psychological evaluation. No one is sure where he got these riches, but he continued to babble “Billy Barty was right!” for some strange reason.

      More on this as more details emerge.

  19. It wouldn’t surprise me if The Flyer will know precisely when his trove is found, and I wouldn’t be too quick in thinking that any temptation to secret it away would be advantageous for the finder.

    • Jake,

      “The Flyer” :

      Jet Fighter Pilot, Flight Trainer, Fly Fisherman and Fly-Tier.

      Some are born to become one; a rare few are born who will accomplish many.

    • IMHO and my prediction is that ff has a notification system “built-in” to the chest. Not high tech, not based on observation, but based on common sense. Along the way of – If the finder is not motivated to act upon something(?) which then triggers the notification, then they are a real fool.

      I do have a confidential opinion on what that notification system is, but will not be discussing that any further for a few months.

  20. Another place often exalted as WWWH in Yellowstone is Forrest’s old bathing spot, Ojo Caliente. He wrote about this place in his story “River Bathing is Best” which you can read even if you don’t have a copy of Forrest’s book.

    I went there and tried it out as a bathing place for myself a few years ago. It’s not exactly remote and is a short walking destination for several hundred park tourists a day who know nothing of Forrest or the treasure. So bathing there can be a lot less of a “private” adventure today than it was around 1940. Additionally, it is probably a violation of park rules to bath or swim in the Firehole River at this spot. So I don’t recommend you try it. On the other hand…it is fun..!!

    The place itself is where hot water from a spring named Ojo Caliente pours down the bank and into the Firehole River. The Firehole was also a favorite fishing river for Forrest and his dad. Forrest calls this spot “special” which gives the location even more credence as the location of WWWH.

    If you sit in the river, near where the hot water spills, in just the right spot, the water is quite comfortable for bathing…Pick the wrong spot and the heat can be stingy or painful…

    The Fenn cabin didn’t have hot water when first built so Forrest would ride his bike from town out to this spot to take a bath.

    The spot is one of the few hot springs mentioned in TTOTC and therefor a prime suspect for those who believe WWWH is a hot spring in the park.

    Additionally, the fact that Forrest has kept the story on his website is verification, to some, that it is a useful marker for unpuzzling the poem.

    You can read my story about testing out this bathing spot here:
    http://dalneitzel.com/2011/08/27/where-warm-waters-halt/

    You can read Forrest’s story called “River Bathing is Best” here:
    http://www.oldsantafetradingco.com/blog/river-bathing-is-best

    You can read more about the geography of the location here:
    http://www.volcanic-springs.com/index.php?section=USA&usasection=lowergeyserbasin&usasubsection=rivergroup

    • I am glad you commented, linked & filmed this special spot Dal.
      This spot is very special to many, even tough most don’t know it.

      We have soaked our souls in the Firehole & came away cold but satisfied.
      I love the Fountain Flats video you took.
      https://vimeo.com/53872866

      I will be honest & swam there only to find the treasure & soaked there for a few days in Oct of 2015.

      How many here can say they did that?
      Some may say that was stupid.
      I say it’s just life as we knowlife.
      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=93COZUWiaEI

      • Jake-
        I’ll get flak for this but I feel that taking a dip in the Madison or Firehole is a Rite of Passage on the search for Forrest’s treasure.

        It’s been said many times before and I agree that in attempting to understand the poem one should try to understand Forrest. Certainly experiencing some of his kidlee joys as detailed in his memoirs is still possible..

        Although it has not given me any advantage that I know of in the chase…I feel good about the ways these experiences have pushed me forward…

        • Right, wright or rite.
          The passage goes through his thoughts & experiences.
          We have to do what he has done to at least see what he has felt.

          If we don’t know one persons feelings, then we will fail.
          And that goes for life as well.

          I may get some flak as well & agree with your passage theory.
          But I also think there is the final bathing spot to wash the soul clean & give back to the longest river of life we have taken from while we were here.
          Gallatin
          Madison
          Jefferson
          Firehole
          Gibbon

          You are on the ribbon.

          • Jake, nice video, my first time viewing it. I felt as if I were swimming there also, and thus credit your perspective. I hope you’ve shared this video with Mr. Fenn. I think he would really enjoy it. I especially like the music. Who does it ?

          • Swimming in the Firehole was one of the most fun things we did last year on our vacation. I felt it was a right of passage too. We have that on our list to do again this year. I do believe there is a loop hole in YNP rules where it’s illegal to bathe in an enclosed hot spring but where the hot spring waters overflow and empty into a stream where the waters are diluted, it is legal. That’s why Firehole, Witch’s Creek, Ferris Fork, Boiling River, Mtn Ash Creek, etc., are ok.

          • ThrillSeekerAnimalLover,
            There are designated areas in YNP you can swim & I believe this is not one of them. Fish all you want with or without waders.

            I would have to say it is frowned upon by the rangers to go swimming in non designated areas & then it become a judgement call for them to give a warning or just let you sun dry by the tall grass.

            As you know when swimming in the Firehole, it can be exhausting not being swept down river in certain spots & conditions & the hot water pouring from Ojo made me move away quickly to a more comfortable place.

  21. if I go to abiquiu reservoir – to me that would be wwwh and if I take it in the canyon down I would go south – not far but to far to walk is where I would find home of brown imo

    • imo – heavy loads and waters high is – abiquiu reservoir heavy loads is the concrete where the water is released in to the chama creek- waters high is the body of water- this tells me that heavy loads and waters high is the right wwwh imo – from hob I go north to the very end of the body of water – waters high – leaving heavy loads and the chama creek behind where no paddle up your creek ends all of this are not facts just an opinion

      • begin it where warm waters halt ( abiquiu res) and take it in the canyon down not far but to far to walk – put in below the home of brown – whats below the home of brown wwwh abiquiu reservoir – where youll find heavy loads and waters high imo

  22. YES! I agree with Dal…EVERYONE needs to search the Fire hole River area! There is Sentinel Valley just West of there…”alone”? Several dried up gysers in that area, too. Yep, the treasure is definitely in Yellowstone! Search the Fire hole Falls, too! That’s a fun swimming area, but wait til summer when the run-of-the-mill is lowest. Head West on the Madison and search 9Mile hole, Bakers Hole and all the other fishing spots til you reach Hegben Lake. Don’t forget Ghost Village and the Earthquake museum.
    Everyone search Yellowstone and I’ll be in..?..MILES AWAY! 🙂

  23. Hi everyone.
    I literally JUST found out about this poem and treasure hunt after reading a news article about Forest Fenn’s treasure on an Australian news website…

    I live in Australia and have no desire to join this hunt but it is fascinating.

    Regarding warm waters halting, the first thing that came to my head was freezing point. Warm water literally halts (stops moving) at 0 degrees Celsius or 32 degrees Fahrenheit or 273.15 Kelvin (when it’s frozen).

    Maybe this has something to do with the clue. Frozen water (winter?) or maybe the degrees relate to some sort of coordinates or location?

    • Welcome to the Chase, Moe! Even if you don’t plan on coming out in search of the treasure, it’s definitely a unique event that can provide tons of entertainment! I heard about this for the first time last year myself, but only bothered digging deeply into it a couple of months ago. Now I’m itching to go out on a search this season like many of the other Chasers on this site.

      Good first thoughts on WWWH. IMO, the difficulty in relating it to freezing points is that temperature is such a moving target. How can one guarantee that water will always hit a certain temperature at a specific location on any given day? Maybe it doesn’t necessarily have to be any given day, but only in the warm months? Maybe hot springs provide a certain temperature constant in certain locations? Definitely something that can be puzzled out further.

      Hope you join in on more of the crazy conversations! 🙂

    • mdc777,
      I was watching the video and you asked “Am I stretching…?”
      Honestly, I would like to see some kinda coordinates built into the poem. However, seeing that you were out right looking for them it appears you tried very hard to make them up. { black for a broken signal light cover for one, and match that to tea with Olga }.
      One thing I kept asking myself while watching, how are these many many hints you talk about not deliberate and needed, IF, they are to help solve the poem? I mean, without the numbers you claim, it seems the poem couldn’t be solve. Yet the numbers are not in the poem.

      I keep going over in my head fenn saying
      **all the information to find the chest is in the poem…and…“There are hints in my book that will help you with the clues, but a clue will point you toward the treasure chest and a hint will just help you with the clues, if you can understand that.”

      Your explanation seems to imply the “answers” to the clues are in the book.

      Fenn stated;
      Q~ “Does somebody need to read your book to find the treasure or all the clues exist within the poem?”
      A~ “they don’t need to read my book,, but they need to read the poem. The book will help them, ** But they can find the treasure if they can decipher the clues that are in the poem.”

      Personally, I wish the question was worded slightly different…instead of all the ‘clue’ exist within the poem [ which we have been told they do ], I’d like to have seen… all the ‘answers’ exist within the poem.

      So, here’s a thought and a question… If knowing about the challenge, the background or book, have the poem, and common sense dictates look at maps of an area… does the poem hold the answers to the clues or maybe a better way of saying it, does the poem have all the needed ‘pieces’ to solve the challenge/clues? Other than the obvious use maps to get to know the location.

      It’s obvious we need some kinda background that leads to why the poem was written, otherwise we just have a poem… but after knowing that info,[ reasons for doing it, 9 clues, etc. ] can the poem itself contain the ‘answers’ to the clues?

      I like the way you attack problems to the challenge, I just wonder if you and others [ self included ] push the limits of what a hint is. My biggest dilemma has been, what a hint vs. a clue is to fenn… he calls everything a clue.

      • I also agree that there are hints in TTOTC.

        One example is this.

        All of his fishing pictures are labeled with a location….except one.

        That is a hint, IMO. In other words…where is the place he didn’t label.

        • If we’re playing the where’s the hint game, Tim… I kind of like that one as an aberration. Problem with that is… there’s tons of “something different” and for me that leads to many rabbit hole.

          I like the more subtle approach to a hint possibility and MDC mentioned one in the video. Mr. Fenn allowed the kids, on a cold night, to warm the pillows.
          IMO, this is a unintentional, not deliberate or even deliberately places subtle hint to ‘help’ with a clue. To back up my thought I’ll refer to fenn’s Q&A…to fenn, warm means comfortable. Does this answer anything?… nope. But what it does is give the reader an idea to think about what warm in the poem might mean and how it might work with the poem as a whole.
          I would add… we might be able to do the same with other words in the poem, such as, down, quickly, brave or even other phrases such as Put in below, in the wood, OR even words not in the poem yet might relate to how to think about the poem… MDC brought up that word as well “time”.

          Whether right or wrong MDC thought about it a word that pops up in the book… I just don’t see it the same way he does. And we all do this [self included] we make a per-assumption to what we hope this word might be or how useful and run it into the ground… that IMO starts us / the readers forcing a solve. MDC used it for sec. and mins. looking for other answers to coordination… but and no offense to MDC, he bend and twist a lot, even changing long. and lat to “make’ it work out for him.

          I like to think that the words usages have more involvement to be understood what the authors true intention was. Such as warm…

          Many have looked up the word water. How many have found the meanings of waters and its usages?

          Just food for thought.

    • Cow, Love your videos…you just gave away my search location, though. But it’s a gigantic area and hundreds if not thousands of searchers have been scouring this block for going on 7 years. I’d like to make a correction to your video…I hope you don’t mind. The line you referred to as the Rio Grande is actually the boundary between Colfax and Taos Counties. The Rio Grande runs down through NM on the WEST-side of Taos. I believe you are so close to some of the hints in TTOTC, or at least my interpretations. I debated whether to share my interpretation of Tea with Olga and the various colors. Since I’ve researched this same “block” with a fine tooth comb and have done dozens and dozens of BOTG searches in this block, you should look at a more detailed map of this area. Draw a triangle of the three teas in order…RED (Red Dome), BLACK (Black Mountain), GREEN (Green Mountain). Take the SB107 bent corner of the 5 dollar bill and look for the spot on your map with the word “treasure (r)” which is hidden beneath the bent corner. The race is on!

      • Cow-
        Be very careful about believing that Cynthia is “helping”. Rumors of quicksand and a pack of wild Pomeranians are said to lay in wait in that block… 🙂

      • Cynthia…
        Are the searchers beating down your door/ queuing up again this year?

        Time for you to implement a reservation system, just have folks sign up using their plastic, whether you’re taking them along or just doing their legwork.

        Stay off the prickly pear

        • Ha Ha…Several searchers have emailed me that they themselves are headed to their search spots in April but their locations are not in my “block”. The only reason I commented about the “Taos block” is because this is where the TWO FEET of snow fell a few days ago. NOONE can find the chest in that amount of snow for a couple more weeks…and I plan on the ff trove finder to be ME! Sorry IW!

    • MDC,
      Since you asked for feedback, here you go.

      Richard Eds, radio interview with forrest and Mika:
      Minute 24:30 “There are hints in my book that will help you with the clues, but a clue will point you toward the treasure chest and a hint will just help you with the clues, if you can understand that. f”

      This seems like a pretty fundamental guideline to differentiating between hints and clues but IMO you are completely discounting it. So are the lat/long numbers hints or clues? As I listen to your tape you seem to use the terms interchangeably and you seem to be using them to “point” in the direction of the treasure. If you are really talking about “hints” then I would expect you to relate the long/lat/time discussion back to solving the specific clues within the poem.

      IMO you can’t have it both ways.

      • Thanks for the input everyone. I knew this one would be pretty controversial from the get go. As far as clues vs hints. I see the area described in the Lat/Long as the place where warm waters halt. It is a hint to help with the WWWH clue. He is helping us with the clue in the poem by giving us a area to search… that is the hint.
        Sorry about the Rio Grand line thing but as long as the Rio Grande crosses the border between 105 and 106 then the idea is still valid.

        ~Cowlazars

        • Like the video Cow, the coffee adds a nice touch. Though I have to say you do use lots of milk. The warm waters halt in that cup.

  24. Seeker,
    (referring to the long replied post above)

    —-Ya have to ask yourself… if this was such a big deal as many hope… a ground breaking, never before known clue in the new book, that many claim there is… why doesn’t fenn mention the new book [ tftw ] in those comments/Q&A’s and others like them? But only refers to the original book…TTOTC, even when asked after the second book was released.—-

    Because it was not intended to be put out there. He says it’s important but I believe it’s very important. He just doesn’t want to draw too much attention to it, hence the misdirection with the preface and map in the back. Let’s put it this way. If you spent 15 years developing this cryptic poem that would challenge a person to solve it within a huge area of the rocky mountains, and you were proud that it all came together so well to stump most anyone who tried to figure it out… would you really want to regularly advertise that there existed a magnifying glass that that would focus down and say “look here”? If it were my poem, I sure wouldn’t.

    • Well IW, That doesn’t make any sense to me. I look at it as; fenn handed the readers what was necessary from the get go… the book with the poem and the challenge. Over 20 years in the making, planning and thinking about… just to change his mind and say geezz what a dumb bunch of smucks, I should write a second book and hide clues in that as well… then I’ll “misdirect” them by telling them misleading information…

      Kinda kills all that know it all chatter about how fenn want it found now. doesn’t it? Sure seems to me to go against what fenn has stated in so many comments… it’s out of his hands, looking down the road, influencing the next generations and his original plan to take it with him etc. etc.

      You said ~ “Because it was not intended to be put out there.”
      Then there can only be one answer and fenn stated what that was… for it to be anything else, text in the book, pictures, illustration etc. it would have had to be by fenn’s hand. That would be very deliberate and very misleading for him to suggest anything else.
      I don’t think, imo, that’s the intent to the second book at all.

      • Fair enough Seeker. I fully understand the way you want to look at it, and I do not know of a way to counter argue your point without drawing attention to that important clue. So, I will leave it with his own words…

        “Well… there’s a clue in this book that I didn’t know was going to be in the book…..normally you would not find this clue, but it is an important clue… if you can find it.” f

        I can explain it in full detail at a later date, but not just yet.

        • Ok IW,
          Don’t tell what you think the “clue is”… but give me something to actually think about…
          Is it in the text, a pic, the map, the book cover, the sticking in the binding. do I need lemon juice to find it?

          As Dal pointed out earlier fenn stated; “And another at about 42mins where he states that leaving Canada off the map in TFTW was a major clue.” referring to fenn’s comment.

          Fenn also stated that; there is one clues that is in tftw that is not in TTOTC. If my math is correct here… well, you see my point.

          • Well… if I’m right (opinionated disclaimer),

            It’s not the map, it’s not the preface, not a picture, and you won’t need any lemon juice. Drinking a shot of pickle juice might help… sure wouldn’t hurt as is evidence of Forrest’s likes.

        • So Iron-
          I assume you don’t buy Forrest admitting that the unintended clue in TFTW was that Canada was left off the map? Even though he admitted that was his unintended clue in TFTW more than once?

          See the Moby Dickens Bookstore Interview at about 38mins and 42mins in…
          or read the interview transcript on this blog to see what I am talking about…

          • Male: how many people have told you they’ve discovered the unintended clue in ‘too far to walk’ and how many were right?
            Forrest: I haven’t had anybody tell me the answer to that clue.
            …later….
            Male: Okay, this will be the last one. Other than the one you’ve mentioned, are there any other hints in ‘too far to walk’ that would help solve the nine clues?
            Forrest: Forrest: There’s the major clue in the book, but I don’t think it will help you find the treasure chest. I’ll tell you what the clue is. In the back of my book, there’s a map.

            I believe that is what you were referring to Dal? Forrest didn’t admit that the unintended clue was the map. If you look at the question asked.. “Other than the one you mentioned…” (referring to the unintended clue that no one has told him the answer to—the one that is important if you can find it). This Major clue is simply a “Toledo” anecdote that Forrest is well known for throwing out there.

            I’ll be able to prove all of that soon enough, but as of right now you can make your own assumptions at my expense… I don’t mind at all.

          • Iron-
            What about this from the MD interview at 42:25?

            “There are no clues in this book (Too Far To Walk), but there are some hints.”

            I guess we can pick and choose what we want to believe…

            There is one unintended clue…Canada
            or
            There are no clues

            Forrest is undoubtedly a man of occasional contradictions…
            These kinds of contradictions will never be clear. We simply choose what we want to believe…

          • Dal ~ “There are no clues in this book (Too Far To Walk), but there are some hints.”
            {in reference to fenn’s comment}

            There in the nutshell is the problem… Hints, and what a hint does, vs. Clues, and what a clue does.

            As fenn also stated; there is a major clue [ unintentional clue ] in the book and he referred to Canada eliminated from the map.

            I’m repeating some of this information in hopes to regroup discussions on Hints vs, Clues… many seem to hope that, what fenn calls a hint in the book, to be an answer to a clue.

            Is this how hints are supposed to work?

            I’ve used this example in the past;
            What is black and white and red [read] all over?
            Hints; black and white and red.
            But, if we think about it, use logic, Black and White are not true colors… this leave Red as a clue. But to understand the clue we need to understand red can’t be a color either… so red is actually read.

            So we have the hints that help with the clue and we finalize an answer… in this case a newspaper. And nothing to do with color at all.

            Fene seem to alude to the fact we don’t understand many of the words we use every day… hence meanings and usages of common words may not be so commonly understood.
            Warm, and with fenn’s recent definition to him as comfortable… may not have anything to do with temperature, or at the very least, any specific temperature.

          • This may or may not mean much in this discussion, but I will throw it out there anyway to be thought about.


            Fenn also gave an accidental clue in his latest book, Too Far to Walk released in the fall of
            2013. He writes that the treasure is somewhere on the fold-out map in the book. It’s not much
            of a clue; as the map is only of the US Rockies, it eliminates Canada. He said he didn’t realize
            that he’d done it, but after spending time with Fenn, you wonder.
            (4/24/14)
            http://santafetravelers.com/santa-fe-blogs/forrest-fenn/

            This came about 5 or 6 months after tftw came out and the drama and marketing hype of the unintended clue was over.

          • Good read JCM,
            “begin it where warm waters halt”. When you solve this clue,” he shared, “the others will fall into place. “If you don’t know ‘where warm water halts,’ Fenn said, “you don’t have anything.” It’s not much, but it’s a start.

            The writer may have messed it up a little though.
            Where warm waters halt.
            Not ‘where warm water halts,’
            I wonder why the news is usually wrong.

          • Jake – In my coming updated release of my ‘Chasing Words of Forrest Fenn’ documents, I will have a side-by-side juxtaposition of their first recorded interview with Forrest and what they wrote on their blog. Their writing is remarkably accurate to what f said in actual word and context, but they do miss a few words (which I suspect may have been done to have correct English writing).

            As to the accuracy of the lines you refer to supposedly said by f, the jury will forever be out on it with no definitive answer to be revealed. 🙁 Though f has told me that he did tell them something similar to what they wrote in that statement, I still have no straight answer that this statement is in indeed wholly correct.

          • JCM,
            Keep the documentation going.
            I have a nice collection of my own but not as good as yours in some ways.
            My notes are similar to Seekers, I am not sure what you transcribed.
            (43:50) “There are no clues in this book -too far to walk- but there are hints”
            I transcribed it & believe it to be correct from Moby.
            Maybe someone can come to my rescue?

            (38:42) “There are clues in my new book that can help a person”

            “Which of the 24 lines in the poem contain the 9 clues?”
            F: “Little girl I already know you, you’ve been out looking for the treasure. She already knows what the clues are.”
            It’s statements like this you may have to disregard. Seemed like he was just toying with her.

            Just want to let you know I had headphones on when Xscribing & listened to his statements about a dozen times each to make sure he said what I heard.

            When i threw everything out the window & started fresh, I only wanted things he had said & that’s what I got & as you & others stated there are some contradictions & that’s just the way he remembers it.

            Pick & choose.

          • As with all “mysteries”, the best information that can be had is early on in the mystery.

            IMO – what he may have said in his earlier interviews and responses will give the seeker a better look at what he means, because in later interviews, he has had practice to what he wants to say.

            So in the earlier ones, we maybe able to get a glimpse of something he said in error.

          • Tim,
            I was actually thinking the recent comments are more relevant.
            I don’t want to be stuck in the past but I do consider things said then.

            It just seems logical to me, what he has stated recently, trumps a few years ago. time has a way of bringing us to the future.

          • Sure Tim,
            The 500′ came out before the 200′.
            Someone closer than 200′ would seem to indicate – yes – in his latest statements.

            Then there were those that figured, deciphered, mentioned where they have been, the 1st 2 clues & that was before the mention by F about the 4 clues but wasn’t sure. Why mention it if you’re not sure?

            Do you see the progression here Tim?

            “Dear Emily
            Searchers continue to figure the first two clues and others arrive there and don’t understand the significance of where they are. f”

            You can go to Jenny’s site & compare the differences & time scale to see why the box is getting smaller.

          • @Jake Faulker

            I have frequented the MW website often, and am familiar with this Q&A….I think it was one of the weekly six questions asked.

            “Dear Emily
            Searchers continue to figure the first two clues and others arrive there and don’t understand the significance of where they are. f”

            If one were to look at the sentence structure, word usage and actual ‘time’ reference…while applying texual criticism to his response, you will find the following occurs:

            “Dear Emily” – greeting
            “Searchers continue to figure the first two clues” – of course we are, that is the intent of a treasure hunt.

            “and others arrive there” – because they thought that it was the beginning point.

            “and don’t understand the significance of where they are. f” – relevance is wasted time by the seeker…AND….realize that there WWWH was not correct.

            If you were to do this technique – using the chase as the reason for say by it – clearly he is just repeating himself in a different way AND probably chuckles about it afterwards. Knowing we are hinged on what he says.

            Oh…he is clever….and he knows it…you are allowing him to drag you into the rabbit hole….all the while diverting you from the correct solve.

            Be wary of his words…they have multiple meanings……remember…he wants it to stay there for a 1000 years…we don’t.

            :o)

            :o)

          • Tim: “and don’t understand the significance of where they are. f”
            “– relevance is wasted time by the seeker…AND….realize that there WWWH was not correct.”

            Assuming WWWH is one of the 1st 2 clues, how can you say they were not correct?

            There is significance to the 1st clue & I don’t think it’s because of it being 1st, that’s obvious. The 1st clue has a much deeper meaning & may connect to the other clues or the last clue in his mind.
            That’s my piece of mind.

          • Hey @Jake Faulker – my thought is just one brainstorm.

            We know FF likes to ‘jumble’ up the meanings of what he says….this could be one of them.

            Maybe not the orthodox version, but it still is one version. Some may discount it, and I will let them. I won’t. It isn’t worth it, especially, when the solve is “difficult, not impossible”. Thus, my version is on the low percentage of thought, so IMO , can be categorized as a possible explanation someone may give to avoid revealing any information at all.

            FF does that to keep the playing field level. I like this FF. It shows he cares for all the contestants and not favoring any special individual. He also has been known to mask what he says in colloquialism and jest.

            Why not here? You will read the book over and over again, or maybe even the poem….why not what he states.

            “Don’t over simplify” is what he said. So I don’t. One needs to follow the directions he gives, they help immensely. He is a simple man. He may have constructed all of this over a period of time, so.

            I only finalized it once. That one time is where we need to be focused upon.

            He says things for reason….good and bad…..My example of examining his words – outside the book – puts a new perspective upon what exactly is a hint.

            Its working for me…..I’ll continue to play this game, until I am no longer satisfied I haven’t succeeded. It looks like my direction is not going away anytime soon.

            Cheers and good luck!

          • F may like to jumble up things he said but it would seem to be total ignorance by the reader to dismiss the “significance” of the 1st clue.
            He has stated this many times with different wording.

            I think there is more to the 1st clue than meets the eye.

            Tim: “can be categorized as a possible explanation someone may give to avoid revealing any information at all.”

            Someone?

            Tim: “One needs to follow the directions he gives, they help immensely”
            Sure we need to follow them but those directions take everyone in different directions & you speak as though your interpretation of the directions are right as many do including myself.
            But there is only one way to go…

            There is where the problem lies: “It’s working for me”.
            It has been working for all a nice vacation. I cannot count how many times that phrase has been stated here & there & never any proof but yet POOF.

            It’s not working for anyone & you may need to “work for it”.

            I think WWWH has to be a natural spot made by Mom, not an airport, hotel, man made structure, airplane etc….

          • You speak of the competitiveness that FF likes to see happen. I agree.

            We all have our own results.

            In all fairness – I think I found that spot that alludes you and many others.

            Why? There are just too many connections I have made that warrants me to go and look. And yes, we all say this before we get in our cars…..so sure of ourselves we have to physically go and check. So I get you meanings and why you have chosen not to utilize a “building” as a beginning point.

            I think this is what FF wanted to keep this game in play for many years to come. I think it is wrong to think like that…..thus I went a completely opposite direction than most.

            I didn’t force fit the clues as others have thought. I actually stumbled up my WWWH and it worked out pretty well.

            So yes, we all “believe” the meanings are what we want them to be…..to some extent of this quest. But there still is only one correct meaning.

            I come out here to engage with others on their theories and suggestions, but in the same notion, provide others with mine.

            This is how the puzzle will be solved – a collaboration of minds that are more powerful than FF’s.

            Crossing off things everyday should be the task at hand until the chest is located and retrieved.

            If not….and you know what FF said – (paraphrased) “all you end up with a great story”….and no chest.

            It’s hard to figure things out….don’t get me wrong…..I’ve been diligently at it for what seems like a long time……thinking is all I seem to be doing with this poem.

            But my thinking has led me to a plausible solution.

            IMO….*smiles*…..

  25. In Yellowstone there were no fish above fire hole falls. it halted all fish.
    One hard poem.. first stanza in Yellowstone and buried.
    Second stanza below fire hole falls and in a German bronze box.
    Still working on HOB. I think the spot is a rock peak with a alcove
    or cove area where someone was able to get into out of the weather
    big enough to lay in and get back in enough to be out of the weather.
    Probably a sun picture or carving in it. maybe with some yellow coloring.
    I would search first west of Nez Pearce creek west of fire hole in those rock peaks. Second up Genesis creek between North white peak and
    the Madison in the rock peaks there. Some place he found when looking
    for rocks for marbles to sell at school. Or within 200 feet of where dal took the picture for TFTW cover… My first guess of WWWH was the
    banks of the Madison. or any trout waters.
    I think the spot is the Fire Hole Falls. I think he parked and only walked about 1 mile to the spot. I am trying to figure home of brown.
    German brown trout. first bronze items in Germany.
    keep secrets buried as treasures are found. not deep but just below the ground. Back to the poem try again…

    • I don’t think it is completely buried I would not try digging in Yellowstone.. I think it could be in the ground with just
      a slight little bit of the lid exposed. Like how finding things on the ground would be. Or if it is a sheltered rock area there would not be any thing to bury it with just setting there.

      • I wonder how would the chest be protected from
        say animals. a bear busting the chest or a bison
        or other animals could do a lot of damage to it.
        Would it be marked by some thing no one would
        take if seen. A spot that offers protection.
        Water or up in the rocks or buried with a marker
        of some kind. I read Forrest and Skippy had many
        adventures in Yellowstone. How do you secret something away there 10 years ago or so.
        Well I am still clueless. Start at the start and follow the poem some how. Were is WWWH at.
        Love the forum . interesting reading….

  26. Cowlazars—

    I watched blog #5 and have to say that it is very, very compelling. Your videos are excellent! They are very thought provoking. It’s great that someone like you is investigating the poem. Thanks for the wonderful insight.

    By the way, just an aside. Billy Barty had a 36″ long bath tub.

    • I stayed in a rental cabin once that had a 36″ bath tub. Most ridiculous tub I have ever seen. My legs were sore from snowboarding so if you can imagine trying to soak in that thing.

  27. Jake… Your words from an earlier post:
    “The writer may have messed it up a little though.
    Where warm waters halt.
    Not ‘where warm water halts,’ ”

    Do you hold any meaningful distinction between ‘waters halt’ and ‘water halts’? I cook pasta in a pot of water. When it boils, pour a little oil on the troubled waters to halt the splashing. Same pot, same water(s). I believe the S-letter switch might matter only in a cipher, but I’d like to know if you think otherwise. Thanks. OS2

    • OS2: your question wasn’t directed at me, but I hope you’ll excuse my interjection. I think there is a world of difference between “waters halt” and “water halts,” and I believe Dal would agree, though for slightly different reasons. If Forrest’s poem said “water halts,” then those searchers who favor a particular hot or warm spring would have a stronger argument. But he used waters plural, which lends a lot more support to arguments like Dal’s where two (or more) hot/warm waterways halt. I just don’t think Dal takes it far enough — I believe it’s a lot more than two.

      • Zaphod – I concur with you and Dal regarding the distinction of plural versus singular. I lean toward two waters.

        You sparked my curiosity, however. I don’t think I’ve run across anyone who has alluded to a significantly larger number of “waters” as you did in your “a lot more than two” statement. Are you willing to share how many, or at least give some rough order of magnitude?

        • Hi (At the Top): to the question of how many waters, Forrest would probably say something like, “I don’t know … how deep is a hole?” Whatever the number is is not really important; what matters is that nearly all searchers’ working solutions involve 0, 1 or 2 warm waters. I have not read from anyone else that suggested theirs had 3 or more.

          • I dunno, IMO, my current solution is a place where 10,000 WWWH … it depends on how you look at it…

          • Zaphod – I had not run across that either (hence my curiosity). I stated mine as two but, if I get creative with the description of mine, I could also say “many” 🙂

            I would also offer my opinion that what’s really important is that a searcher discover Forrest’s means of providing confirmation that one has discovered the correct WWWH. He says the poem alone can lead a searcher to the chest but, IMO, that’s the longer and less certain path to success. He’s provided plenty of emphasis that using the poem and the book together (along with a good map) is a solid formula for success.

            I’m not suggesting you are not using all those things…just laying my opinion out there on this topic for all who participate on this site.

          • Hi Jim: on a logarithmic scale, I think your number is much closer to being correct than is 1 or 2 waters.

          • Zaphod,
            The funny thing is I had this other “great” solution (or so I thought). I had through “meek”, but even as cool of an area as it was, I couldn’t get any farther. I decided to ask myself.. “Why isn’t this the solution” While I was researching people, looking through some books, reading about the history of the YNP area, I came across an area that fits to a T (hopefully T stands for Treasure).

            My WWWH is YNP. Forrest knew there are many WWWH if you look at the granular level, but I started thinking… The Philadelphia caper… “Look at the big picture”.

            Hopefully I can resist temptation to drive (or hop in my plane and fly) to the area.

            I am already a “Junior” so maybe my new nickname after the summery Will Be Henry Jones Jr. 🙂 Good hunting.

      • Zap, thanks for your input. I don’t see “a world of difference”… but a rather an arbitrary attempt to…. oh shoot, it would take too many paragraphs to explain. I hope you don’t leapfrog over a good location because of your split definitions. Heck, WWWH may not even be about H2O . OS2

      • Zap OS2,
        I don’t think it matters much with my solve.
        I think the general area of Fountain Flats & even further up or down the Firehole still leads to one canyon down & that’s the Firehole.
        Maybe that’s why so many have figured the 1st 2 clues.

        If you’re using number conversions for your solve then it matters.

  28. Details, we have to check the details…
    In Too Far To Walk, Chapter 5, River Bathing is Best, Page 21
    FF writes: “Just before the river, there on the right, was a green geyser pool which spilled and spewed a small streamlet of boiling water that ran downhill for about fifty feet and into the cold river. my secret bathing spot…”

    The Green Geyser?:
    44°33’47.64″N 110°50’4.16″W

    The Bathing Spot?:
    44°33’45.98″N 110°50’7.53″W

    All in my opinion,

  29. Michael-
    Ojo Caliente is quite well documented. The thermal documentation group from Montana University list it’s lat/lon as:

    Latitude: 44.56298
    Longitude: -110.8388
    Converting that to Deg/Min/Sec:
    Lat: 44° 33′ 46.728″
    Lon: -110° 50′ 19.68″

    The water has a greenish or yellowish cast due to it’s sulphur content. The rocks around it are encrusted with a dark brown to yellow colored sinter…

    Some folks who feel this is not WWWH do feel it could be the HOB…

    Unless you are a thermal feature wonk or chemistry geek you can read enough science about Ojo Caliente to make you easily nod off …here:
    https://books.google.com/books?id=mQyr6fMC8WsC&pg=PA119&lpg=PA119&dq=location+of+Ojo+Caliente+in+yellowstone&source=bl&ots=Yzu-GgKtB0&sig=3BgcGF50MTAn-KqhAOYNaHkWYtM&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwj62v-81PXSAhUE-mMKHdG1DX4Q6AEIWzAM#v=onepage&q=location%20of%20Ojo%20Caliente%20in%20yellowstone&f=false

      • One more detail to clarify my reasoning: This spot is just UP STREAM from Ojo Caliente spring. The boiling geyser water runs about 50 feet down to the FireHole as the story says. The water from Ojo Caliente runs a much shorter distance. This one little detail is the deal breaker for me in identifying the precise location of the Bathing Spot. For those that want to make the pilgrimage to bathe in the exact spot, IMO they may find this location to be more secluded for a clothing optional bath.
        (There is something else that was curious about that spot. But from an armchair search I will have to keep it to myself, unless you DAL want it emailed to you. )

        • Michael-
          I’ve been to Ojo Caliente many times and about 50ft from geyser to river seems just about perfect to me…albeit, I have not taken a tape measure…
          One other thing…Forrest told me that was his bathing spot…He’s told many others too…
          It’s not a secret…

  30. Another e-mail:

    “Sparrow—do you think there is anything hidden in the letters of the words of the poem itself? Maybe you can find WWWH in the letters of the words if you look hard enough. What do you think?

    –Thanks, A.C. Rostic

    A.C.–please see my answer to Ana Gram above. The same would apply.

    Thanks, Sparrow

  31. I think it’s important to note two things first. Fenn wrote his poem and book to be used by searchers hundreds of years from now. He’s said as much. So he didn’t use cultural landscape features in his clues (train stations, museums, park rangers’ cabins, place names, so on) or temporary natural landscape features such as trees (so don’t expect to find a blaze on any tree). As such, I contend we always need to focus on permanent features of the landscape that will be available to searchers in the distant future.

    The second thing to note is that water moves and halts naturally in many ways, and not all of them are obvious, and so here’s my solution to WWWH:

    It refers to moisture-laden warm air rising (convection) in the atmosphere and halting when it cools and reaches its dew point, condenses, and falls back to Earth as precipitation. Far fetched? Remember that Fenn was a fighter pilot and so he experienced important moments of his life while in the upper atmosphere. Recall that there’s an airplane in Fenn’s sketch in TTOTC (p. 99), and on the side of that airplane is a line drawing of the Rio Grande at Espanola, NM (a town Fenn mentions in the book).

    This explanation of WWWH also pairs well with the next clue, “Take it in the canyon down.” The canyon sketched in below the airplane has an unmistakable down arrow.

    • Not far fetched at all RickH,
      “It refers to moisture-laden warm air rising (convection) in the atmosphere and halting when it cools and reaches its dew point, condenses, and falls back to Earth as precipitation.”

      The only problem i have with this theory is it happens all around the globe.

      There are a few places where it happens every day though & one of them is YNP. The steam from the geysers & hot spots do float up into the sky but doesn’t always come back down as precipitation.
      Most evaporate, but that depends on the dewpoint & humidity except for the larger spouts like Old Faithful.

      Thanks, you just gave me a new perspective of that area.

      • Jake ~ ‘The only problem i have with this theory is it happens all around the globe.’

        “in the mountains N.of SF.”
        Canada, poof … tftw clue
        There are “many wwh” in the RM’s and nearly all are N. of SF, you “over simplify the clues”

        No global problem I can see… The real problem is, if wwwh is the first clue, is it a place? Or can one of the first two clues not be a place… or… a place that is not too specific, yet still specific enough.

        Warm to mean conformable. Is that an emotion, a feeling, a place of comfort, all the above?
        Is Yellow [ color ] warm in an artistic / poetic meaning?
        Is Yellowstone not part of the water “Basin”?
        Is there a canyon, just as well know as another Grand Canyon?
        Does the major river, and land not hold riches new and old [ riches in knowlege ]?
        Is it not, no place for the meek?
        Does it not have and end [river, canyon]?
        I would surely think heavy loads could refer to the “chamber” and water high to the geysers…
        So, what is the blaze?

        Where the problem in this theory?
        Just curious…

        • There you go again Seeker, blowing up my brain with all these Q’s.

          Didn’t say a place of comfort, just said it meant comfort.
          Basin is a sink & dam.
          Not thinking it’s YNP grand Canyon.
          Way to treacherous.
          I’ll go with kn-owl-ege.
          I like the middle.
          Riches new & old are whats in the chest.
          No place for the meek is YNP – no hunting or trapping now.
          Yes, real river & canyon.
          I wouldn’t go that far with HL & WH.
          That’s where the imagination kicks in.

          The blaze is a rock outcropping sheared by Mom in the silhouette of an owl with eyes & ears standing sentinel above the pool of water.

          There are many problems with all our theories.

          • LOL…’Riches new & old are whats in the chest.’

            That’s an easy way to dismiss what might be critical information…
            Why would fenn hint at what is in the chest in regards to the poem?
            I recall a Q&A reflecting a similar thought.

            ‘Didn’t say a place of comfort, just said it meant comfort.’

            Well, he is using the word warm in regards to waters… and to begin it where warm waters halt. Shouldn’t that be a place?

            Maybe, hint of riches new and old [ what that refers to ] is what we begin at… The IT so many want to know about.

            Naaa that can’t be.. that just fenn wasting a full stanza as an intro to the poem… means nothing… move along folks, nothing to see here.

          • That’s the way I see it Seeker.
            Everybody’s results may vary.

            The bio is new & mostly everything else is old & not sure of everything he put in there but I do believe there may be something dated in the chest to when it was hid.

            We have discussed this before & you know how I feel about time.

            For every story you need an intro & an exit & there they are in the poem.

            Why do we need to use every word or stanza to lead us to the treasure?
            Yea, I know, it’s risky, but that’s what the man was anyway, wasn’t he?

          • Kids asked f “what does warm mean to you?”
            F said “comfortable.”

            Note: kids did not ask what does WW mean to you…

            So, “comfortable” may not have anything to do with WW at all…

          • Hint of riches new and old…

            Seems to me the reading of the old Las Vegas NM and how it was started and the New Las Vegas NV, may be an interesting read for many…

          • But there is an intro… it call the book. In the book he sets up a poem that contains nine clues, tells the read to follow what the poem states and it will lead to his rainbow “and” the chest. So what do ya have? Your intro and exit.

            How many times does fenn allude to… all the information to find the chest is in the poem…
            Might the answers to those clues also be within the poem?
            Is fenn telling of new and old, as hinting about those answers?
            And Yes, there has to be ‘answers’ to what the clues refer to.
            Have you ever wondered why fenn might have stated ” a comprehensive knowledge of geography might help”?
            Can you find a subtle hint from the book that would direct you to understand this?

          • That’s a pretty big intro to the poem.

            The poem stands alone & has an intro & a extro.
            If you see an extro in the poem, then there must be an intro.

            “Can you find a subtle hint from the book that would direct you to understand this?”
            To what?
            You need to be more specific. Maybe then I can answer.

          • Jake ~ ‘To what?’

            Have you ever wondered why fenn might have stated ” a comprehensive knowledge of geography might help? Can you find a subtle hint from the book that would direct you to understand this?”

            SMAACK! Can ya hear me now…

          • OK Seeker,
            The last Q.
            Just wanna be sure. You ask so many Q’s???

            I can find subtle hints in both the books about “comprehensive” & “geography”. Let me ponder this a bit….

          • I lost where I was Seeker.
            From memory, I can see many places mentioned in the books that would be relative to have comprehensive knowledge of geography.

            Why geography?

            I think there are also things in the books that relate to ideas & experiences by him but will stick with places.

            Marry poem with map.
            Otherwise it will end up in a divorce.

          • “comprehensive knowledge of geography.”

            I remember when I was in elementary school and one of the subjects was called “Geography”.

            What exactly is “geography”? What does it relate to?

            Well many, many years later, I’ve have concluded that “Geography” is a relative term that can include many Sciences – if speaking in a general manner.

            Topography is a form of Geography.

            Understanding forests and mountain regions could also be included.

            What are terms used within “Geography” and how do they apply to the poem?
            – we know a “Canyon” is used in geography an topography – does that change the meaning of what a “canyon” is? Of course not, because we all know a canyon is a geological formation.

            OOPS! I just added Geology to the mix, didn’t I?

            BY now – you can see the point I am trying to allude to…..and that is that “a comprehensive knowledge of geography” does not only include places and locations or areas and regions, but could include elevation knowledge, geological features, and more importantly, habitats (bears, fish, frogs, etc) that are also included within a region.

            One needs to expand their learning cycles to include many things that they have not.

            Cheers!

          • I will buy what you said Tim,
            But I will sell some of it off at a loss.

            The “geo” says allot but I don’t think we should go to deep where it turns into a rabbit hole.

            Geo – graphy – Buy
            Geo – logical – Sell

            He did mention geography, so I will stick with that & not sidetrack to other geo’s.

            I think we do not need to know how it’s made by Mom but we do need to know that it was made by her & not man. That’s how I look at WWWH & most of the clues if not all.

          • @ Jake Faulker

            You wrote:

            “That’s how I look at WWWH & most of the clues if not all.”

            Not all clues are associated to geographical locations.

            Of course these are just IMO:
            WWWH – not a natural feature
            NF,BTFTW – is a man-made road…..not a natural feature
            Blaze – FF constructed – not a natural feature

            So, you are right, there are Mother Earth features that are included int he “map”, but not all.

            Perception is of our own making.

            Cheers!

          • Tim: “Blaze – FF constructed – not a natural feature”
            F did work for the Forest Service clearing trails.
            Do you think it’s a trail?

            I personally don’t think the blaze is man made.
            What makes you think the blaze & WWWH is man made?

          • Tim: “Blaze – FF constructed – not a natural feature”

            Jake: F did work for the Forest Service clearing trails.
            Do you think it’s a trail?

            I personally don’t think the blaze is man made.
            What makes you think the blaze & WWWH is man made?

            ******************

            “Do you think it’s a trail?”
            – yes….in fact, I think the trail is made up of multiple “trail markers”. Included with these “marks” – and I’ve posted some of them in these blogs – namely – a “frog” symbol, tar, an “F” within a circle, a “C” within a circle, or possibly some rendition of an older style trail marker maybe.
            – “he did it tired and now is weak” – expresses his effort and time it took.
            – An 80 yr old man would be tired and weak if he took all day to mark a trail.
            – He would also be required to do it in secret and with no one looking or being around him when he does this.
            – “not a man-made trail” – as I have posted before – an animal game trail fits this hint. A road is made by bulldozers, so a road could be part of the “trail”.
            – FF made the trail using existing natural landmarks – so a “comprehensive knowledge of geography” could be applied.

            “What makes you think the blaze & WWWH is man made?”
            – I have my reasons…..not willing to publish them yet. You know I have used “edge of civilization”, because in truth, I think when FF wrote the final draft of this poem, he actually traveled along the path and jotted things down as he saw would be helpful in the map. That is why he say the one who figures it out, will be surprised it was so simple.

            Granted the edge of civilization puts the seeker pretty much in any small town in the RMs…..which makes this part of the puzzle the hardest….or – “there lies the puzzle.”.

            I also agree that once one figures out WWWH the rest of the clues fall into place. This seems to also tell me that the “blaze/trail” could also actually be “the completed map” that FF is alluding to.

            “If you’ve been wise and found the blaze”.
            – Clearly this is telling us that we should have already found the path to take – in order to actually arrive at this point in the quest. This tells me that you MUST know what the “path/trail/blaze” actually is, before you could have arrived at this “clue” in the poem, in order to continue forward.

            I’ve been completely open and honest in my approaches to this quest and how to solve the clues. I actually think I’ve done pretty well…..but I also appreciate your attempts to find a hole in it.

            I’m at this point in my search that now requires others to blow it apart.

            Please remember – this is just one path that fits. Is it the correct one? I won’t know until I have BOTG…..just like everyone else.

            But with me putting it out here….it allows others to also test theirs against what I have uncovered, and it will also allow others to possibly eliminate some notions and thoughts that they have mulled over, but were never able to fit them in a way that they work.

            Double meanings are used throughout the poem. Understanding how the meanings are applied to the poem is a given, so using all of the meanings, only then can you begin to reduce those that do not fit.

            I hope that helped explain a little.

            Thanks!

          • Tim,
            The problems I have as the blaze being a trail are: A trail is too long & you don’t know exactly when to look quickly down.
            I did like this theory in 2015 until I thought about it for days/weeks & just seems like it doesn’t fit.

            Don’t get me wrong, I think we will have to take a trail whether man made or animal to get us close but as F has stated:
            “the last place I want to be is on a trail.”
            Keep on blazing….

          • Hi Tim/Jake: the reason a comprehensive knowledge of geography might help is that it would allow you to recognize the first clue in the poem. Without that geographical knowledge, you ~may~ not be familiar with the clue and could pass right over it. The type of geographical knowledge required is acquired by simply looking at maps (as opposed to being an expert on topology, geology, watersheds, etc. — remember: no specialized knowledge required!)

          • Oh Zap…I agree completely.

            I’m a “city boy”…..and only know what I do of geography or the like, through attending classes in school. Shoot – my first college Geology class wasn’t until about 2004 and that was attended, just so I could acquire my GenEd credits in a Science.

            Granted – back then, I didn’t think of its use in the future would help me on a treasure quest….but it has.

            IMO – the relationship of “comprehensive knowledge of geography” and the poem is that one should UNDERSTAND how elevation plays a factor in the poem, what terms used in the poem can be extracted and applied to physical locations from a Macro view (2nd stanza) and then move to a micro view….also 2nd stanza.

            Yes, I know….I have removed the 1st stanza from the “map”, because it has no bearing, unless you know where WWWH is at.

            IMO – I do. Therefore the 1st stanza applies to the entire poem in different ways.

            “As I have gone in there
            and with my treasures bold” – the location/region/forest in the RM where he placed Indulgence

            “I can keep my secret where,” – He won’t tell anyone his secret / “where” is a relative expression to the actual location of Indulgence
            “and hint of riches new and old.” FF tells a story of hidden treasure that boggles the mind into such a way, he has unleashed a way to get people off their couches and intot he wilderness.

            He wants you to be part of the story he is telling…..go find his story.

            I did, and now I am $1000.00 away from actually realizing another trip to go and find FF. Shoot – his bio is in the chest…..”Go and find Forrest” is yet another “unsophisticated” reference to the why he put this altogether.

            I’m rambling, huh?

            :o)

            Good luck.

          • Tim,
            What is this “Micro” “Macro” jargon?
            I hope the Macro doesn’t relate to computers.
            Micro can be tiny but doesn’t tell us much.

            Yes, we have to look at the big picture but I don’t see yours in this microcosm.

          • Macro – Google Earthview…”large overview”

            Micro – can be GE view of zooming in, but also topography and other details when looking at a paper map.

      • HI Colokid,

        The poem includes all the letters in the alphabet except X. X is on the map on page 99 at the base of the banana tree. That’s our ultimate destination. This sketch is the map we need to contend with.

        The problem I run into is how to translate the poem’s clues onto this map to arrive at a 10″x10″ box. There must be more involved to find the box, but the map does suggest where to look for actual geographic locations that the clues reference, such as WWWH indicating the Espanola area.

        • Rickh,
          Sorry, just having a little fun. If you want to pursue this line of thought go for it but keep in mind that he told us the book hints were not “deliberately placed to aid the searcher”.

          Asking an illustrator to add specific “map” lines to an illustration would have to be considered deliberate act on F’s part. Asking that they be placed on an airplane (something we might scrutinize since f was a flyer) would have to be considered deliberately placing that “clue” to draw attention.

          I’m sure this won’t change your mind since lots of people try to dig hints out of the illustrations…just sayin.

          • Hi Colokid,
            The map on p. 99 FF drew himself, not an illustrator. The sketch contains many graphical representations of the book’s textual information.

            It is tough to square with FF’s statement that clues aren’t deliberately placed; however, the sketch also does say “map” in two places, so I’m finding it difficult to set aside.

          • The map on page 99???

            I have TTOTC and TFTW-pg 99 does not show a map.

            What are you referencing?

          • Rickh,
            If it’s “tough to square” that’s your mind putting up a red flag.

            How do you know Forrest drew that part of the illustration?

            You said: “however, the sketch also does say “map” in two places”. Seriously?

          • FF drew the entire sketch on p. 99, “JF” initials mean Just Forrest.
            Yeah, “map” is in two places; on the breaks in the leaves of the banana tree, and just above the ledge to the left of the figure with the giant quill (he’s the “writer of large note”, Eric Sloane, and his note is “map”).

          • Sheryl Lynn — he’s referencing his pareidolic map on page 99 of TTOTC (illustration for most of us).

          • RickH ~ “FF drew the entire sketch on p. 99, “JF” initials mean Just Forrest.”

            How do you know fenn did the illustration? It’s not the first time this has been talked about, but it’s all speculation at best… we have been told the illustrations were done by another.
            Fenn also stated;
            Chicago radio WGN interview, March 2013: http://lummifilm.com/blog/WGN2013.mp3
            Minute 10:45, Q: Does the book give me any more information than I would get from the poem?
            A: “There are some subtle hints in the **text** of the book that will help you with the clues.  The poem will take you to the chest but the book by itself won’t.” f

            Wouldn’t fenn telling us another did the art work, and tells us the “text” has hint, be an out right lie if he did that illustration?
            Not to mention it would have been deliberately placed…
            Maybe JF stands for Juicy Fruit.

  32. If I go to google map and I go to abiquiu res and don’t change it to satellite you can see a boot a clue of the kind of zebra boots he took a picture of that his grand daughter was wearing and I think it has something to do with rio arriba county but not sure imo

  33. It’s the Blue Hole, y’all. Follow me:

    “Waters”: a singular body of water, such as a spring, creek, stream, river, pond or lake. Or a collection of these, such as the “waters of New Mexico” a term which encompasses all the water features of the state.

    Let’s say, for pragmatic purposes, that waters in the poem refers to a singular body of water which halts: collects for a bit in a natural basin, before continuing onwards in a small outlet stream…. Where could this be? Why, I’d say it’s the Blue Hole in Santa Rosa, New Mexico, a popular diving destination with recorded dive fatalities. And also nearby Perch lake, another popular diving destination, which has a remarkable feature at its bottom: a small submerged airplane for divers to explore. I’m pretty sure this is the plane which Skippy piloted off of Lake Hebgen and was never seen again….

    And Billy the Kid’s favorite swimming hole, as local lore would have it? Why , it was none other than the Blue Hole!

    And the Home of Brown? Maybe it’s Las Vegas, NM, which was once home to the notorious Hoodoo Brown, aka Hyman G. Neill, the leader of the Notorious Dalton Gang.

    Look no further!

      • Nothing saying a clue can’t be west, south or east. I don’t think so, but we only know that the chest is more than 8.25 mile north of the northern limits of Santa Fe, New Mexico.

        I’m gonna go out on a limb here and predict that to be the city limits. Only because, it’s stated like and address and not SF. ‘county’ NM.

      • Hey Randawg,

        Just because WWWH is east of Albuquerque doesn’t mean you can’t end up 8.25 miles north of
        Santa Fe after you follow the other clues!

  34. And that waters of the Blue Hole are indeed warm enough to not be fit for trout! Try taking a swim in a trout stream to see the difference!

  35. Stephan,

    IMO…Mr f does not like to walk in others footprints…he likes to make is own. Therefore he would not hide the chest close to any spot that is known for someone else. This is his treasure and his special place.

    • Hi Rick,

      I think you are right about Mr. F. But I am only saying that the Blue Hole is WWWH, not that this is the location where he hid the treasure. One has to follow the clues from there!

  36. begin it wwwh and take it in the canyon down – its not far but to far to walk – I would think that he started making his map to the poem – starting in santa fe – and to me he is saying if you are going to look for the treasure chest its not far but to far to walk and to me it would be no more then 100 miles imo

    • Everyone seems to think the “canyon down” refers to the direction a searcher should move as he follows the clues. I suggest that the “canyon down” exists in relation to the first stanza, which references the actual location of the chest. So the canyon down, is the canyon “down” from where the chest is located. Like saying “the restaurant is located two streets down from here” for example.

      • stepan not to change your way of thinking – but if you don’t take it in the canyon down how are you going to find the home of brown

        • What if “begin it” and “take it in the canyon down” describe some geographic, geologic, or other formation that describes the general starting area, and not where you follow? Say that (IMFO) the Madison river begins (not the chase) WWWH, and the Madison river takes it in(follows) the canyon down….

          • Jim,
            My personal thoughts have been, the water[s] is doing the traveling… we, as the readers, need to understand what the water[s] course is or does.

            Fenn repeats constantly… don’t go where an 80 yr old man can’t… that alone is subjective, but, I don’t see fenn traveling up and down a canyon twice in one afternoon carrying a heavy backpack… no matter how good a shape he was / is in.

            The question here is… did fenn “have to” follow the same course he tells us because it’s the only way to actual travel to the hide, or did he simply walk 1000/2000 feet to the hide?

            In theory… [ it seems ] we can solve the poem prior. If that is actually accomplished, with the correct solution, the answer should be obvious. That should be the, ‘What took me so long?” feeling/idea.

            “I warned that the path would not be direct for those who had no certainty of the location beforehand, but sure for the one who did.” f

            I take the word “location” to be the spot the chest lays in wait. So, either way…

          • “I warned that the path would not be direct for those who had no certainty of the location beforehand, but sure for the one who did.” f

            I agree with this statement.

            One could not not if their WWWH is accurate unless they have that location “down pat”….AND….that they have been in that location prior.

            It is sort of a “reassurance” for the seeker that they may be right, but won’t know if the path is completed from their WWWH…..thus…..”no certainty of the location beforehand”…..BOTG is the short answer.

          • Jim this my take on this – from wwwh and you take it in the canyon down to me is south where youll find the hob so to me put in below is north – so wwwh is north of hob and hob would be south of wwwh so to me every thing is north of hob I hope I said it to where you understand it all this is imo

          • Frank,
            Out of curiosity and IF I read your explanation correct… why or what reason would we even bother with hoB? if it basically takes us back toward wwwh — go south to hob to put in north where we just came from.

            Why not just turn around at wwwh and head for ‘no place for the meek’ or whatever your next clue refers to?

          • While we are told not to take short cuts, it does make you think WHY take Canyon down just to come back up again and make full circle, or to find us making an omega! Beginnig and end!

        • Hi Frank,

          Me and the lads will be taking it in the canyon down from the location of the chest, and we will put in Below the home of Brown!

          • seeker – home of brown if you find it is just a marker or what ever that tells you that you have the right wwwh- by going south and hob is there you are at the correct wwwh

          • seeker – to go south from your wwwh and you find what your home of brown is then you have the correct wwwh- it is just to check if you are at the right place

          • Stephan wish you and the lads a safe trip and hope you find it good luck and take care

    • Hey SL,

      Remember that Fenn has said there are many places in the Rocky Mountains region where warm waters halt. Everyone jumps immediately to hot springs, but I suggest instead that one might look at natural, spring fed lakes instead.

  37. Up blog a bit there was (once again) a discussion about whether condensing water vapor/clouds/continental divide could be a candidate for WWWH. This seems to be a common train of thought but if you use that, you pretty much have to draw your X over the entire 4 state region…clouds are everywhere. And isn’t that a bit too big to use for a starting point?…..we already have that giant area to work with even without a clue. Personally, if I’m going to nail the first clue and consider myself “virtually half way there” I want a place somewhere that’s much smaller to work with.

    Maybe the old timers like Dal, Loco and JCM can help me out here, but wasn’t there a discussion way back in the early days about whether YNP itself could qualify for WWWH? A searcher (I’m thinking maybe Wolf or Dal?) came on and stated that Forrest had told him that YNP wouldn’t work because it was too big and the starting point needed to be a more precise/discreet place (something to that effect….just paraphrasing).

    Even though this would have to be considered a second-hand quote, it would be interesting to go back and look at that discussion if anyone has a link. Unfortunately, that was before I started tracking quotes.

    • Colokid,
      That discussion, and a couple other comments is why I posted my theories with no real worries… I’m not just a pretty face, ya know?!

      But, the point to what was stated by Dal ~ in part; ‘That it was a specific place [wwwh] and not a region…’
      That really seem to only refer to wwwh which might not be the first clue.

      Example; [simplistic minded thought] “As I have gone alone in there…” possible first clue and possibly YSP. -[ not deliberate, but told of, in many stories/memoirs of his wonder years ]
      Clue two; “Begin it where wwh…”

      Fenn still hasn’t claimed wwwh as the first clue – directly. [ which I still find funny that it has “only” been mentioned / claimed by others with no audio to back it up. Really? All those recorded interviews, Q&A’s, and not one of those stated WWWH as the first clue ]
      I wish he did to be honest.

      And if we’re going to be honest with analyzing the poem… the above hypothetical seems reasonable to Dal’s recalling of the conversation. IF we only knew where the first clue in the poem is located.
      Also, we still have the other comment… looking at the “big picture”
      Was that meant metaphorically? geographically? a single region? Over time? The first clue? All the clues?… some of those or even all of those?

      • The again, If stanza one is not a place… it might just be a thing. Which in this thought would bring wwwh as the first clue.

        Many talk about stanza one as an intro… I can’t get myself to think that is what was meant for this stanza. However, we have been told that the poem has “all the information…”
        As I have gone alone in there and with my treasures [ memoirs / book ] bold, I can keep my secret where [ book ] and “hint” [in the book] of riches new and old [ help with the poem.

        Need to know where to start.
        Need to start at the beginning.
        WHERE did it all start?
        I could have written the poem before I hid the chest….

        • Hey there mister Pretty face,
          Guess I shouldn’t laugh since I don’t know what you look like. Ha, Ha.

          Ok Seeker,
          Im going to fall back on this one. “Those who solve the first clue are more than half way to the treasure, metaphorically speaking.”

          If this is the case it seems that the first clue is a specific spot. I would also add that the most logical structure for the clues would be a continued narrowing (ie each clue narrows you in to the final resting place). For the first clue to be a general region just doesn’t make sense to me…that feels more like a hint similar to MDCs generalized area in northern NM. A 1000 square miles to search isnt any better than 4 states in reality.
          “Read the blogs for entertainment and the poem like you were going to put an X on a map. F”

          He wants us to find a literal starting “point”. IMO.

        • seeker – its always been for me anyways – that stanza one is a place – and that’s where you will find the treasure chest – after 5 years on the poem I have not found any thing that will change what it is imo

  38. Does the meaning of the word “warm” have anything to do with temperature?
    Obviously, temperature fits the narrative but I can see why so many are in YNP.

  39. The “Search the Blog” feature under Dal’s image doesn’t function. It makes it a problem when attempting a Search for clarification, etc.. (The other option at the bottom of the page isn’t really !) IMO.

    SL

    • SL,

      There is a very powerful, yet indirect tool that can be used to search this blog. It’s using the GOOGLE search engine to search only this blog.

      Here’s how to use it:

      In the Google Search Box, type something that you are looking for, such as: “So why is it”, followed by, “site:dalneitzel.com”

      “So why is it” site:dalneitzel.com
      or
      condensing water vapor site:dalneitzel.com

      It should return the exact results that you’re looking for…

      Hope this helps!

  40. Here’s some more INSIDE INFO for all you searchers. I’m a long-time Santa Fe resident who knows many folks in the community, including quite a few who had both personal and business relations with Mr. Fenn stretching back over many years.

    I know his son-in-law, for example. He told me on numerous occasions that Mr. Fenn was always remarkably fit, never had a paunch of any kind, and remained so well into his 80s. Perhaps only recently has he had health problems which have slowed him down.

    Mr. Fenn was known as a vigorous hiker, and jaunts of well over 10 miles were nothing to him.

    For those who think he wasn’t capable of taking the chest far into the Rocky Mountains, think again.

    An athletic ex-fighter pilot and avid outdoorsman is not going to leave his treasure where any couch potato can find it.

      • Hi Ken,

        Not anti-potato at all! I come from a long line of big panzas (Spanish for gut), though I don’t have one myself!

      • ikr, that’s how it all starts Seeker – one moment ya sorta don’t like potato & gravy anymore

        ..next moment ya suddenly working for the KGB!

        (so.. any confessions Stephan?) 🙂

        • Hey Curious Hobbit,

          Me and the lads been real busy lately, studyin’ and scrutinizin’ hi and lo fer Brown. You see we found a real honest to goodness Brown. With a capital B. Ain’t no trout nor bear neither, coz all us pirates know there ain’t no capitaliizin’ none but proper names and places. See, that’s why it is the only word in the poem which is key, and we been tight focusin’ on it!

        • Hi Stephan – i agree that Brown is vital too

          i also believe that your reference to ‘pirates’ needs a capitol P, esp in the case of those notorious NW coast pirates

          and if Seeker doesn’t go on a botg hunt this summer, we should def make him walk the plank
          – it’ll be fun! 🙂
          ..

    • And for those who would quote from Mr. Fenn’s comments about “two trips from his car”, “it was done in an afternoon”, etc., remember he is a crafty fox of a wordsmith, and if you parse these comments carefully, you might see there is some wiggle room for other interpretations!

      • Good points you have brought up today Stephan…Fenn does seem to have an affinity for making everyone believe/hear or think something other than the intended. Given the fact that he has invited/dared all to look for a treasure that he has hidden somewhere north of Santa Fe in the mountains…it just makes sense that he remains mystical and aloof right to the bitter end. It adds to the mystique and certainly ensures that the treasure’s location stays a secret. He is a sly fox…

        • Hi Ken,

          We can agree for sure that he is very, very crafty. I have been at this hunt a long, long time, nearly from the beginning, and have searched many times. In the early days, when far fewer people were emailing Mr. Fenn, he was much more responsive to queries. Which is not to say he was not very careful with his answers.

          Anyways, I had a very lengthy discourse with him about my ideas, and before I pissed him off with a very snarky comment about his association with Donald Rumsfeld, he frequently had a wry response for me. Early on, he might not have been as careful as he could have and was perhaps not quite as masterful with saying nothing at all in his responses. So from his very own words to me from these early days, I will say that the treasure is definitely not buried. It’s in plain view when you find the blaze. Also, warm waters refer to a body of water which physically halts, or comes to a temporary stop. It’s not a change in temperature or where a river changes names…I was lucky to be in the chase before many people knew about it at all, so take it or leave it, but these things I hold to be entirely true.

          • Stephan…I recall your many posts from the early days of the Chase. You are spot on when you say that Fenn was a bit more relaxed in the early days with his responses to individuals. Glad to see you back in it and good luck to your crew.

          • Hi Ken,

            Thanks for the good wishes. Me and the lads will definitely try our best to getter dun!

            And good luck to you too!

        • Hi Ken,

          We can both agree that Mr. Fenn is a very, very crafty fellow, and exceptionally intelligent. I have been at this hunt a long, long time, nearly from the beginning, when Mr. Fenn received far fewer emails and was much more likely to respond to queries. I had a very lengthy discourse with Mr. Fenn at this time, which continued until I made an impolite and very snarky comment about his association with Donald Rumsfeld. I have many wry, albeit brief, comments from him, and perhaps he was not quite so masterful early on at not giving anything away. Anyways, take it or leave it, but from our early conversation and his own words, I am utterly certain that the treasure is not buried. The chest is in plain sight. Also, warm waters halt involves a body of water coming to a physical halt, a temporary stop. It does not involve a change of temperature or a name change of a river.

          • Hi Missouri Jon,

            The fun goes on and on with me and the lads.
            And Brown ended up an Afrikaans.

            Nice haiku, huhl? One of the lads is quite the poet.

          • Stephan, Thanks for the info…I believe you and I are both searching NM. You’ve been searching longer than I have and I believe we both had searched the Rio Grande Gorge area in our earliest searches. I since have moved to the Taos Block and it’s not a secret. You seem to have a pretty good idea WHAT wwwh is? May I ask you what you think it is? I also have a pretty decisive idea. I’m not asking you WHERE but WHAT, if it doesn’t give too much away. Thanks.

            And by the way, I agree Fenn was much freer with his information to searchers 5 -6 years ago. I think he got a big kick out of hearing their search stories. And it was likely 2012 when someone/ones first got within 500 feet of the chest.

            I agree with your assessment of Fenn’s fitness level and health when he hid the treasure in 2010. But he continued to say he could still “go right to it” when he was 85. His mobility had definitely lessened in those 5 years. And Feb 5, 2016 in the Fundamental Guidelines he stated “If you can’t make two trips from your car to your solve in several hours, then don’t go.”

            His definition of “several”: Moby Dickens BookStore 47 mins in, “What does the word several mean? Many, no. It means more than two but not many more than two…”

            Then on Jenny Kile he said: “I will say that I walked less than a few miles if that will help. I just looked “few” up and one defintion is “scant”. Why do I sound like I’m talking in circles.” (MW 10/13/2014)

            I think he walked less than a mile from his car to where the treasure is hidden. But that’s just my opinion since I’m not harboring (had to use a pirate word for you 🙂 ) the treasure chest. It scares me a bit that you plan on a search soon! Friggin snow…more fell in Red River, SF Ski area etc etc. Even Chama, Abiquiu this time. I planned to use every day in April to find the treasure…trying to beat IronWill to Fenn’s hidey spot. 🙂 Now I might have to wait a couple more weeks.

          • Hi Cynthia,

            I recently shared my WWWH on the blog: it’s the Blue Hole, in Santa Rosa, NM, and nearby Perch Lake, both scuba diving destinations and spring-fed lakes (their source springs flow into the lakes, and then halt).

            As regards the Fenn quotes about his efforts to hide the chest. I think these are classic, elusive Fenn wordsmithing at their very best. When he says , ” I walked less than a few miles and one of the definitions of few is scant”, what does this really mean? Scant is defined in the dictionary as barely sufficient. So he walked less than was barely sufficient to hide the chest, or, what was actually sufficient.

            As far as “few ” goes, it means more than two but not many more. I could have ten apples in my bag, not 3, and still say “I;ve got a few apples in my bag.”

            I don’t see a man like Forrest Fenn wanting his bones to rest in close proximity to the mundane hub-bub of day hikers and tourists, no matter how spectacular the scenic beauty may be. A true connoisseur of wild places knows that there is a whole other dimension of beauty and quality when you voyage to remote, pristine places in the wild where few have trod. If he truly intended for no one to just chance upon his chest or his bones, then a remote location is a logical deduction.

            I won’t be searching again until early June, when seasonal, high-altitude creeks are at their peak, for I am certain that the chest is located along a creek bed. Waterways are the only sure and permanent navigation routes in the wildneress, and explorers have used them throughout history. They are the only routes which are guaranteed to be stable and unchanging for a thousand years. So Fenn walked along a waterway to hide the chest., and it is sitting there in plain view for whoever finds the right creek!

          • And remember, me and the lads got a Brown which is neither a bear, nor a fish, nor a Native American!

          • Stephen, the chest may very well hidden along a creek like you say.

            But I’m going to have to disagree with you when you say, “They are the only routes which are guaranteed to be stable and unchanging for a thousand years.”

            Just one example are the recent floods along the Front Range, the landscape was changed dramatically in a very short amount of time. If I wanted something to survive for a thousand years, along a waterway is one of the last places I would put it. Just my opinion.

          • Hi Goofy,

            High altitude, seasonal creeks in the Rockies do not flood in the ways that waterways do further down, when they have joined together to create much larger volumes. And being often in narrow canyons, the course of the creek would not change even with a flood much larger than would ever be possible. My search area is above 10K, and the tiny creeks up there do not roar or even flood, even in the worst deluge: these are headwater creeks I am talking about.

            And by the way, mate, the name’s Stephan with an “a”! Us is pirates is real partickular about grammaries! 🙂

          • Stephan,
            You might want to keep in mind, if your solve doesn’t bring you more than 8.25 mile North of SF. don’t bother. [ It doesn’t matter to me where ya start, but ya need to be North of SF to find the chest.

            Another thing to ponder is; when fenn talks about distance or time “he” walked to the hid, he normally adds two trips.

            So, if you try and calculate distance and time, you should consider a “few mile” and “several hours to one’s solve” and fenn did it “in one afternoon”

            A quick estimate of a 45 minute hike at [ round trip non-stop 3 hours twice] without taking in consideration for resting, loading and unloading back pack, physically hiding the chest etc. ad another hour for this [ for two trips ] and it could easily be a total of 4 hours minimum. Twice in one after noon.

            If your ending area can’t accommodate this minimal time, from your vehicle and two trips up and back to the hide, I would think twice about it.

            imo

          • Hi Seeker,

            Just because Mr. Fenn says it was “done” in an afternoon doesn’t mean it was started in the afternoon…Isn’t “finished” another definition of “dpne”? Classic potential Fennspeak if you ask me!

          • Hi Seeker,

            In fact, my solve does take me more than 8.25 miles north of Santa Fe’s northernmost city limit!

          • Stephan,
            Ok… decide how to read it anyways ya like.
            This one Q&A [ in part ] always catches my thoughts;
            “…But I will say that I walked less than a few miles if that will help. I just looked “few” up and one definition is “scant.” Why do I sound like I’m talking in circles? f ”

            Ok, So we have in the poem; “Look quickly down, your quest to cease, But tarry scant with marvel gaze…”
            Is this the “less than a few miles” fenn talks about?

            A vantage point looking at where the chest lays in wait, and two trips to retrieve it is the few miles he talks about?

            Many would like to have the blaze sitting directly on top of the chest, however, HLAWH sounds like a location marker / blaze to me…[ because at that point on we should have been wise and found the blaze, right? ] and we look towards the chest… Is this what is meant by “Observing?” “Planning?” “Thinking?”
            “Certainty beforehand?”

            Oh sure, we need to nail down that first clue like fenn told us or stay home… So what is the reason for that first clue’s importance… others have been on location and indicated the first clue [ told fenn where they were]… what did they do wrong from there???

            To be honest, if you have your first clue as wwwh and it’s that far south of the chest [ which has to be more than 8.25 north of SF ]… I’m not seeing that distance working out well.

            But that’s just me…

          • Stephan, Thanks for your reply. My bad for not reading all the comments. You said you will be searching along high altitude creeks above 10k early June, so that means high peaks probably in the Sangre de Cristos if you are starting at the Blue Hole, and end up at least 8.25 miles north of SF. My plan is similar only lower in elevation above 8k but less than 10k. I have a different wwwh but does it really matter if we end up in the same area? I like the idea of following perennial creeks since the Indians used them as a year round water source, hence a place FF went to look for arrowheads. Good luck searching!

      • Hi Jake,

        Take it or leave it, I’m just quoting directly from the son-in-law, Shiloh’s father, who I have known for years.

        • Is this stephan the pant less pirate I have always took what you say as true you have been a searcher for years and found the tree blaze good to hear from you

          • Hi Tonto,

            Yes, ’tis the pants-less pirate back agin, worse for wear, but still a gleam left in his squinty eyes. Me and the lads aim to find that thar chest up a creek afor too much longer! Best of luck to ye mate!

      • Hi Jake,

        “I’m utterly certain”. Take it or leave it, it doesn’t have to be anything at all for you. There’s folks been on this long before you happened on the scene, and I’m just sharing a bit from the earliest of days, when things were a little different.

        • Well Stephan,
          I cannot confirm or deny what you have said.
          You do seem to be credible & not throwing the anchor on the smaller boat below.

          I’m not sure I can believe 2nd & 3rd party here say although I do believe only half of what F says.

          • Hi Jake,

            On my pants-less pirate’s word of honor, I can assure ye mate that I am an old-school type of bucaneer, and I have lived in Santa Fe for 40 years…Fenn ain’t no slouch in no way, gifted physically and intellectually way beyond most of us. Even us pirates. I once worked in an art conservation studio years ago and touched up a painting for Mr. Fenn when his gallery was at his peak. When I’m not being a pirate with me lads, I’m a carpenter by trade now.

            Give New Mexico a try. You might like what you find

          • I will save NM as the last state Stephan.
            I drove through there & stayed a day in 2011 from FL on the way to NV & fell in love with scenery. Of all the states I traveled back then, I still peg NM as the place to retire but not hide the treasure.

    • Ever come across a lady by the name of Donetta Pancake?
      If so, tell her I said hi. I’m starting to think FF may have put the loot closure to home. How far is SF to the Colorado border?

  41. I have a solve to publish soon. I’m trying to make it concise, which is hard because there is so much to document. The “WWWH” is unique and worthy of much research to appreciate its significance.
    Also, it will tie together a lot of “Fenn-speak”. F often changes the subject noun in his comments. Often when he says “they” he isn’t referring to the previous object of discussion, but is talking about someone totally different. For example–when asked how close anyone has come to the TC, he may slip in the word “searchers”, or “they” but the searchers he is referring to were from a century ago. (Of course this is IMO, but when you see my solve, you’ll understand).
    Also explained is why “they” would get the first two clue right, then walk right by. You will understand why the “D” is missing in Knowledge. And why searchers have been within 200 feet. Why you won’t trip over it. (BTW, it is a precise spot. Very precise).
    For the skeptics, I’m putting it out there because I’ve just been diagnosed with pulmonary fibrosis and won’t be able to go there. My family thinks I’m insane and that there is no treasure. None of my friends are interested. So my hope is that unemployed redneck will beat you all to it–and I’ll get my 15 minutes of fame for figuring this out.

    • Whut?
      What?? I’m going to wait patiently for your post… I have some thoughts about things you have said… BUT I’ll throw this out there now. “searcher” have told fenn by -email- where “they” been, and “their” process of their solves. So I want to see how you get around the technology and bring it back centuries… keeping fenn’s replies and comment truthful.

      By the way… if you’re going to tell all [ and don’t know when that will be posted ] Give us your short version of the first clue [ whatever that is to you ] and lets us brew over it for a while.
      Also, sorry to hear about your recent health development… and for that reason, you can’t physically finalize your solve.

      What can I say but, stuff happens. Don’t let it get to you.

      • If I gave any info at all on WWWH, people would Google it and solve it in about 15 minutes. It has always amazed me how smart some people are.

        • Solving WWWH is far from solving the location of the treasure. The fact that many people have correctly figured out the precise WWWH and have not found the treasure is evidence that while it is necessary, it is not sufficient.

          IMO, if you are concerned about people figuring out your WWWH, you have the wrong one.

          • Whut: I’m confident your spot is far from my location, so I look forward to seeing what you’ve got. I’m actually hopeful that you have something that’s at least original as opposed to the tired old warm spring, brown trout, Joseph Meek, dry creek, waterfall, blaze on a tree, look-straight-down offerings.

  42. I’m sitting here thinking “I don’t want to be that guy”. The one who brags first and fades away. Dal said it will take a day or two to get me published, and right now I’m re-re-rewriting to get it coherent.

      • Thanks. I’ll give you the details once and then we’ll never speak of it again. No condolences–it is what it is and a Christian doesn’t fear death.

        It’s like pulmonary fibrosis, but a little different. Hereditary apparently. My mother died a horrible slow death suffocating. Don’t know at this point how long, but my life has been blessed beyond all reason. I’ll be ok.

    • Dal said it will take a day or two to get me published…

      LOL…Dal just wants 2 days head start to check your spot.

    • Hi SL,

      Yes, it is indeed very curious that there would be an airplane at the bottom of a warm water spring-fed pond which is very popular with scuba divers, near the famous Blue Hole, another spring-fed pond, which has been notorious too for several diving fatalities through the years. Coincidence? I think not. Now everyone just has to figure how to get from here into the Rocky Mountains by following the clues.

    • jeez, hordes of Australians are looking for the chest too?

      ..well, that explains why it hasn’t been found yet 🙂

      • i think it’s more the fact that standing upside-down on the under-side of a planet while travelling anti-clockwise at 1000mph (24/7) can be mildly disorientating

        ..but i’m sure, once they correctly orientate south to the top of their maps, they’ll be just fine..

        wait a minute?! ..darn it!! 🙁

      • Put another shrimp on the Barbie. Putting sea food on dolls is unthinkable. Those Australians have strange practices.

      • well, if you think they have strange dinner practices, you should see what they have for breakfast

        ..usually barbecued Snuffleupagus with extra mustard (true story) 🙂

    • just so ya know Dal, Kiwi’s and Aussie’s have always had a strangely weird (yet highly bizarre) comradery ..since before those Pre-Magnum guys even

      reason is, we wish we were happy Australians, and they wish they had our Rugby Union team ..but, oh well 🙂

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qTwAoFR4DuM

      ( ..hope ya not too grumpy at me 🙁 )

  43. Just dropped the file and pictures in Dal’s email.

    Now all I have to do is take the bullets from our panel of experts.

  44. Stephan—

    Appreciate your comments. But shiver me timbers my good man ,the chest is not in plain sight. The blaze is within plane sight maybe, but the chest is not hidden in plain sight, and I’m not playin’ .

  45. Whut? Now that you have shared your solve with Dal, maybe you would want to share the 1st clue with the rest of us because:
    A. It would only be fair, since Dal is also a searcher.
    B. Nothing is fair in this world…yet your posts say you found Eternity, PTL!
    C. The suspense is killing me…
    Please share (only the 1st clue), until your masterpiece is revealed. You know that you -want- to.

    • The clues begin and end with the Catwalk.

      Insert picture “Catwalk

      It’s now a park, but back when the Confidence Mine was operating it needed water to process the ore. The Whitewater Creek wasn’t a reliable source that far down the canyon, so an engineer named Graham built a pipeline from up above that carried a constant flow of water to the processing plant. The pipeline attached to the canyon walls some 20 feet above the floor and it was dubbed “The Catwalk” because miners would have to walk it like a tightrope high in the air to make repairs. (BTW, the water source where the pipeline begins qualifies as “warm water” and has brown trout). So the Catwalk started where the warm water halted and took it in the canyon down.

      • Why would this catwalk be the first clue, is my first question. Out of all the possibilities… what is the connection, importance, meaning behind the piping, the mine etc. for the poem?
        I’m sure you answered that in the future post to come… but I think it’s important to understand why the area is special to fenn… a place he holds in “high regards” and “respect”… anyways, that’s my first thought / inquiry.

        • Those questions all require speculation, which I’ve tried not to do. I do have some thoughts on the matter, but in my solve I try to focus on facts.

          • Are you speaking about the area around Glenwood NM ? If so…are you saying the first clue is in SW NM ?

          • Whut? You obviously studied hard and long. I look forward to the entire post. Also, commend you for sharing witth others. Keep your hard hat on and keep looking Up.

          • There could be a fact alluded to in the first stanza of the poem…which makes it non speculative. The few hints in TTOTC could be facts too.

      • How is the catwalk north of Santa Fe? Or, do you think the beginning might not be north of the SF but the rest of the clues move north?
        Thanks.

  46. Michael Hendrickson on March 22, 2017 at 3:15 pm said: “He says that “she stands sentinel”” in reference to Indulgence. Since then Dal has closed comments on that thread, so I am picking it up here.

    I also wonder if Mr. Fenn is giving us a subtle hint about the orientation of his treasure box. What I am alluding to is this; most of us are looking for a 10 inch by 10 inch square box. What if all you can see by observation is 10 inches by 4 inches, because it has been stuffed into a crevice of some kind? A further what if is this, what if you have to be standing directly over it in order to see it? Even being just a few feet away would make it difficult or even impossible to see because of the angles involved.

    Just wondering out loud.

    • This is a great line of speculation…for those that believe Indulgence is not buried or “IN” water. The possibilities are endless …but if the poem lands a searcher in the correct spot I can visualize this scenario and alludes to Fenn’s comment about no one stumbling upon the box.

  47. Ken

    Yes. I know that will be a major problem for most on this board. I don’t want to debate that point right now, but later I think I can answer that inconsistency with what Forrest has said.

    • SL,

      Because of the line in the poem imploring seekers to “look quickly down, your quest to cease” I suspect finding the treasure will force us to look down, not at the current resting spot of Indulgence. So, it goes without saying that you can stuff a treasure box into a smaller crevice on its edge or side, rather than setting it on its bigger base. It also better fits the subtle hint of “stands sentinal” versus laying on its bottom (or top) and stuffed into a crevice. The assumption I am making here is that the crevice is of a vertical nature, not a horizontal one.

      And let’s all be careful, as this is a huge jump in presumption from a simple statement made by a man who in the past, has been known to “not shoot straight” when using the English language.

  48. “Seeker on March 23, 2017 at 4:24 pm said:

    Hey Charlie ~ ‘To think I thought I had no chance when I started because Dal and the vets then had 5 1/2 months head start.’

    I just thought that was funny, and some think the same way even now because searcher have been so close and have figured out the first couple clues… lol… yet even then, they did not know it.

    I just find it funny that there is so much talk about someone will find it this years because of those comments, when reality say… folks have been that close, stood at the hay stack and still didn’t know it was ‘the’ hay stack.

    It just tickles the funny bone.”

    You can look back to Introductions to see when I started in on this adventure a couple of years back. And I don’t want to discourage any of you “newbies” that are just getting up to speed, but it is my humnble opinion that the person that does find Mr. Fenns treasure will have spent many a year on their solve. Mr. Fenn spent years planning for it, don’t think for a minute you’ll find it on “your spring break”.

    I’m with Seeker on finding this a bit amusing. I’ve been working on my research off and on and am still undecided as to where to put my boots on the ground. If things come together as I hope, perhaps I’ll make my first trek into the wood sometime in 2018. So, ya’ll have at least another year’s head start on me.

    Good luck to all!

    • What’s the big rush anyway ? If anything, this Chase is just a real fun hobby. It sure beats collecting bottle caps or pieces of discarded string…right ?
      The prospect of running right off after three days of research and picking up Indulgence sounds pretty enticing…but when reality sets in…and reading countless solves/ideas/tales of failed searches whacks you in the forehead…a wizened adventurer is born. Or…a perennial skeptic emerges who fades with the setting sun to be heard from no more.
      One of my favorite passages… from Pat Garrett
      Encumbered by idiots, we pressed on…
      Funny when we get a glimpse of the past…how it can fast forward to the present…and blend right into the moment.
      What…?

      • Mid stroke…to post…I realized that some thin skinned readers may take offense to my last…Rest assured, this was just an inner reflection aimed at myself. A reminder…as it were…that sometimes the best laid plans can and will go awry….

        • Lifted from Wikipedia

          To a Mouse

          The poem in modern English

          Little, crafty, cowering, timid little beast,
          Oh, what a panic is in your little breast!
          You need not start away so hasty
          With argumentative chatter!
          I would be loath to run and chase you,
          With murdering plough.

          I’m truly sorry man’s dominion
          Has broken Nature’s social union,
          And justifies that ill opinion
          Which makes you startle
          At me, your poor, earth born companion
          And fellow mortal!

          I doubt not, sometimes, that you may steal;
          What then? Poor little beast, you must live!
          An odd ear in twenty-four sheaves
          Is a small request;
          I will get a blessing with what is left,
          And never miss it.

          Your small house, too, in ruin!
          Its feeble walls the winds are scattering!
          And nothing now, to build a new one,
          Of coarse green foliage!
          And bleak December’s winds coming,
          Both bitter and piercing!

          You saw the fields laid bare and wasted,
          And weary winter coming fast,
          And cozy here, beneath the blast,
          You thought to dwell,
          Till crash! the cruel plough passed
          Out through your cell.

          That small heap of leaves and stubble,
          Has cost you many a weary nibble!
          Now you are turned out, for all your trouble,
          Without house or holding,
          To endure the winter’s sleety dribble,
          And hoar-frost cold.

          But little Mouse, you are not alone,
          In proving foresight may be vain:
          The best laid schemes of mice and men
          Go often askew,
          And leave us nothing but grief and pain,
          For promised joy!

          Still you are blessed, compared with me!
          The present only touches you:
          But oh! I backward cast my eye,
          On prospects dreary!
          And forward, though I cannot see,
          I guess and fear

          • Burns has been a fave of mine for many moons…brings back memories to see the whole poem. Bring “warm” feelings…just to stay between the lines.

          • As meek as a mouse. “No place for the meek”. A place with a lot of owls maybe? 🙂

    • There are very few things about the chase that I truly agree upon b from other posters. But two comments made by two other searchers seem to give me clarity on how I approach the whole thing. {paraphrasing}

      1. The challenge’s difficulty seems to be designed to make one fail at first.
      { My thoughts on this is; fenn may made it difficult not only for the prize at the end, but to experience the journey through exploring even if the prize is never found} “We shall not cease from exploration, and the end of all our exploring will be to arrive where we started and know the place for the first time.” – T. S. Eliot. { influencing the next generation[s]}

      2. When known, the solve will come together without fault, be elegant, with the answer to ‘What took me so long?’
      { To use our minds, imagination, an physical being ~ Enjoy the ride }

      • To ride…I’ve gotta ticket to ri i ide. It used to cost a nickel to ride the fake pony outside Montgomery Wards…those were the days. Now we have this ultra ride…presented by Fenn Enterprises. Put your tin foil hat on, open your Text book to page 132 and hold the heck on cause your gonna blow a couple of fuses somewhere along the way….!

        • Ha! ~ Montgomery Wards
          Man, did you just age yourself. I only read about it in history books, myself.
          BTW, what’s a nickle?

          • Age is subjective…trust me when I say, “I’ve never acted my age”. In fact I have never even acted. I have taken action…been in some action and even caused a few actions/reactions…and all of the above were influenced by my total disregard of my age at the times of these events. We called it Monkey Wards and personally I preferred it to Sears. I forgot to say before that a ride on the Fenn Machine costs as much as the rider wants to put in the meter and don’t complain to the owner ’cause whining will only make it spin faster….

          • A nickel is something mostly made of copper. Must have been f that designed it’s make up sense that would be confusing. I guess “nickel” was easier then 70% copper coin.
            Lol, I wonder where the largest copper producing smelter was in the world at the turn of the 20th century? Maybe the place has a “halt” built by a “nickel”, might be a good place to start… Okay, my bad, scratch that. Lol, Montgomery Ward, awesome. Hey, here’s one: M “on” t = Mt, go mery w “ar” d = Mt meryd = Mt married. To bad f never mentioned Montgomery Ward. Probably shopped at the commissary on base.

          • Ya’ll kill me…lol.
            My question was rhetorical with a shade of sarcasm.

            The point was… What can ya get for a nickle today…

            But that was cool learning about the nicker pecker.

      • Seeker – thanks for posting/commenting those two points. I am in agreement on both, especially regarding comment 2.

        I strongly believe the solution that brings “certainty” and a “sure” path to the TC will have an elegant simplicity, and once looking back on the challenge from that perspective, the craftsmanship and layers of depth to Fenn’s blueprint will be evident.

  49. Some have defined “warm waters” in terms of temperature, e.g. above 32°F, but below 212°F.

    FF suggested that “warm” is “comfortable” (not necessarily alluding to “warm waters”).

    However, the KEY word is the action (the verb), or “halt”. Most would agree that “halt” means to stop, at least temporarily. Therefore, the condition of the water (the adjective) is perhaps irrelevant. We could think of it as simply “where waters halt”.

    For example, if the poem used “liquid waters” instead of “warm waters”, we could leave out the adjective “liquid” without altering the meaning of the sentence. After all, “warm” and “liquid” are both somewhat redundant, as water is only “liquid” or “warm” when it is between 32°F and 212°F.

    Perhaps we are concentrating too much on “warm springs”, “hot springs”, etc. and perhaps we should be focusing solely on “where waters halt”.

    The question at hand is… Do we apply more emphasis on WARM or on HALT?

    Food for thought…

    • Yep….”edge of civilization” encapsulates all you are thinking.

      But where to begin…..that is the key.

      • Tim,

        Perhaps it’s not so much about “where to begin…”, but where NOT to begin… (i.e. “warm springs”, “hot springs”, etc.).

        I like your idea of “edge of civilization”, but I think there are other possibilities as well (pun not intended here). 😉

        • ‘Perhaps it’s not so much about “where to begin…”, but where NOT to begin… ”

          Good point…..eliminate those locations that are to “obvious”.

          :o)

          Mind boggling, huh?

        • You will also notice…many posters and seekers are not in tune with my theory either.

          That is okay…I’m not in tune with theirs.

          :o)

  50. Hi All ,

    I would like to ask a question , I you all would so kindly share your shouts to
    it would be in-valuable to me.

    Question is and relates to a quote in TFTW.
    “I warned that the path would not be direct for those who had no certainty
    of the location beforehand , but sure for the one who did .”

    My thoughts are that no one had any certainty of the location
    before hand. SO my take is that the path is difficult.
    As F said he didn’t want to just give it away ,
    What’s your take here?

    Thanks

    • IS THIS LOUD ENOUGH FOR YOU?

      Ok, seriously, my thoughts on this search have changed over this past winter. I think that once the person who figures out where to start will simply need to go into the wood, follow the poem and pick up Indulgence. Sounds easy, right? Which, in hindsight, probably will be considered as such – kind of a “duh” moment for the person that lifts Indulgence from its current resting spot. The harder part is getting past the “sticky wicket” of knowing you have solved the riddle with enough surety to go into the wood. Personally, I’m not there yet – but I am saving up for the chance to get out into the wood to find it. Someday, but not until I am certain I know where to start the quest with my boots on the ground. For me, the difficulty seems to be in figuring out where to start the quest.

      (As an aside – because of things Mr. Fenn has mentioned, it is my position to not go into the wood to look until I have this assurance, which is the opposite of what most folks think here. Many have stated that the reason Mr. Fenn set up this puzzle was to get folks into the outdoors. I have neither the time nor finances to go traipsing through the woods without purpose. It’s not that I don’t like being outside “roughing it”, quite the opposite, I assure you. I can vacation in many such spots that are only a few hours away from where I sit as I type. But to search for this treasure, for me, means a substantial investment financially. If I know that there is little or no return on investment, then I am choosing to stay home.)

      PS. And that’s not to say I wouldn’t take in a Fennboree along the way to meet up with and chat with fellow searchers. I also enjoy hanging out with folks of like mind while on vacation.

      • SWWOT-
        Money is always a hard resource to come by and I appreciate your conservative attitude against spending it without confidence.

        I am about 900 miles from my prime search area. But luckily I travel eastward to get to it which means there is plenty of “free to stop at” federal land between me and my search area. I also drive a van (Esmerelda). I like to sleep outdoors when I travel so my lodging costs are not much. A typical 10 day trip wallets out to something like this:

        My biggest expense is fuel. Esmerelda gets about 22mpg. On average a gallon of gas is around $3. Typically (if I don’t go down to Santa Fe) I’ll put under 3K miles on Ezie. That’s about $400 for gas. I have a bedroll and sleep on the ground for free in USFS land most nights. If the weather sucks I’ll stay inside Esmerelda. I’ll also stop at a campground or spend a night in a cheap motel for the shower on a trip. So that’s another $20-$45…I have a few favorite hot springs that I like to stop at where I can relax and soak and clean-up on my trips….They are free. I buy food at grocery stores except when I see a really great mom and pop restaurant…then I have to stop and try the apple pie. So figure about $100 for food. I do laundry once on the trip so that’s another $10..I have a forever pass to national parks and other federal lands so if I decide to go to a national park it doesn’t cost extra. Assuming the wheels don’t fall of Ezie those are certainly my major expenses..
        But, of course, I spend a few bucks on books and attend the odd flea market and 10 days supply of twizzlers.
        Of course this is when I search alone…

        If Kathy comes with me…it’s a whole different deal…then we travel like civilized folks and stay at more motels with hot showers and clean bed linen. We eat at restaurants and attend doll shows and buy hand made socks and wacky local art thingys…
        and besides..after the first day I can’t sleep in Ezie anyway because there are too many “important” rocks taking up sleeping space in the back…

        Alone my trips cost me around $600 these days…With Kathy…probably double that…But I get a lot of enjoyment out of traveling, and Kathy is a great road partner…
        But she has her own treasure hunting to attend to…
        She is happy to let me off on some dirt trail while she takes Ezie and heads back into town to check out the garage sales all day…
        So far she’s always come back for me… 🙂

        • @ Dal – cool story…..I’m in ABQ – just south of you…and are right on course for expenses. It will cost me about $1000.00 for a 6 day round trip in “Bessie” the ’99 Ford Explorer I own.

          I’m working on the next adventure as I type…with a projected trip in mid-May/mid-June.

          Unless anxiety gets the best of me first!

          :o)

        • Hey Dal, I hear you loud and clear. I’m roughly 1200 miles from the area I suspect Indulgence sleeps. I get to cover the plains though, where there isn’t a lot of tree cover or camping opportunities. I have a two wheel drive pickup that gets 24 or 25 MPG with a capper, so I can sleep cheap also. When I do make the journey, I will have the privilege of having my younger son join me, as he is also interested in the poem. We deer hunt together as well, so we are a good team in the woods.

          As I alluded to in the opening paragraph, I am still uncertain of where to start. But I’m working on that. Probably the biggest reason I won’t be joining the fray this summer is that my wife and I are currently homeless – but we are debt free. 🙂 We sold our home at the end of February and haven’t found a new one yet to move back into. I am just about certain whatever home we purchase will require my undivided attention for the majority of this summer getting it up to snuff for the Mrs. My energies will simply be required someplace else this Indulgence hunting season.

          Maybe an early fall excursion could work out in September, but that’s too far off to make any plans for at this point.

          Good luck as you search!

          SWWOT

    • Mr. D and Heather;

      I had solved the poem to the point that I was CERTAIN that I could walk right to the “spot”…but alas, I was wrong. I was quite confident that I had painted the “right” picture in my head, and that all I had to do was match-up reality with the picture I had in my head.

      Reality turned out to be slightly different. Once I was home, while looking at some pictures that I had taken, it dawned on me that I had a couple of “Mis-prints” in my mental picture.

      Close, but no cigar. In the pictures, I now see where I made my mistakes. Hopefully, all I now need to do is to go back to that spot in the pictures, and retrieve the TC…but then again, I STILL could be wrong. I will just have to wait for better weather and find out. JDA

      • JDA, it appears that your confidence is shaky.

        If you don’t have the confidence that FF indicated
        that a successful solver of the poem would have,
        you might want to think about staying home and
        re-thinking your solve, until you are more confident
        in it. Good luck. Even a hike in the wrong place
        could be beneficial to one’s health.

        • Tighterfocus;

          I assure you my confidence level is sky-high.

          In the past I have been accused of being pompous and over confident, so I try to mellow my posts a tad. How is your confidence level? Have a solve? Had BOTG? JDA

      • That’s the nice thing about exploring natural surroundings for the first time: it’s never quite how you pictured it in your mind when you were first just looking at a map. I find it’s usually an improvement beyond what you pictured in your head. The Rockies have a knack for exceeding one’s expectations. Keep the faith, JDA, and keep on enjoying the adventure! 🙂

  51. Seeker & Dal:

    Thought I read around March 28th, 12:44 PM a comment by Seeker that ff indicated “YNP wouldn’t qualify for WWWH”. Was this right, or was my left
    side brain playing with the right side? Utter confusion…. Please correct this searchers poor memory.
    As always..thank you

    • BigSkip,
      Yes and No.
      The comment was Dal recalling a conversation with fenn about what another said about wwwh. I repeated that recalling in my post.
      If you climb the ladder here … look for Zaphods post a couple days back, you’ll find a link to the original comment Dal had made back in 2013.

      So Yes “I” made a comment, and No “I” didn’t indicate fenn stated it as such…
      And, just so’s ya knows, I don’t repeat gossip.. so ya best listen up the first time.

      • Seeker:

        Forgot to mention: in addition to the brains being in conflict, the hearings going too. As always, thanks for the clarification. Will do the research..
        Thanks again…

  52. Hello searchers….Barry here from CA. I see some of the comments and know the frustrations. I just want to remind you that this thing revolves around fishing. Ask yourself how does warm water versus cold water relate to fishing?
    what would be the differences?
    as always good luck

  53. A fair amount of talk about time and distance up thread. It seems that this topic appears out of no where regardless of the original content of discussion. I personally have witnessed quite a few elderly folks tearing up the trails on fairly steep grades 7K alt. Made me feel like I had lead feet and no lung power. Hour or so later…here they come again…still zipping along. I won’t say that Fenn travelled a great distance by foot to secret Indulgence…but…I think it may be in the realm of “possible”.
    The biggie though seems to still be…first clue…second clue. Is WWWH really the first clue? I strongly believe not.

    • Two thoughts Ken,
      If wwh is the first clue and there are many in the RM’s, the poem must tell where that is, or all the many waters need to be understood, in reference to the clue.
      If wwwh is not the first clue, the poem must still tell us where to start. Especially if all the information to find the chest is in the poem.

      If we break down the poem, and read it slight different from directional, and more instructional… The stand alone line/sentnece “Put in below the home of Brown” just might be the, know where to start. I can read it along the lines of this example;
      Begin at Walmart [ there are many ] and take the road south, not far, but too far…
      How do we know which Walmart to start at?… Put in at Joe’s crab-shop. So, out of all the possible Walmarts, the one we need is below Joe’s place.

      Others may not agree this is in order, but are we not “following” the instructions?
      I think many want to believe the poem is literally linear… I think the poem explains we need to get our duck inline.

      ~ If I told you what HOB is, you’d go right to the chest…

      So, example; in understand how it might be read… put in below hoB and begin it wwwh and take in in the canyon down Not far… from there it’s no place for the meek… Just heavy loads and water high.

      IF you been Wise [ example above ] and “found the Blaze… HLAWH, Look quickly down….
      Does this answer the, know where to begin comment? Need to start at the beginning comments? Need to nail down the first clue comment or stay home? Searchers indicated/told where they were at the first two clues but didn’t know it? Why Little Indy can not get closer than the first two clues?~ because hoB might be on a map??? Does hint of riches new and old help explain what hoB might be in this theory?

      Does stanza 6 relate to the chest /and/or/ hoB?
      That one I’m still in thought of…

      I’ll even stake it one step further… “second hand info” [i personally don’t rely on second hand info.] ~ if you don’t have wwh you don’t have anything… Well, that would still hold true if you don’t know that particular wwwh is below hoB [the starting point], out of all the many wwwh in the Rocky’s.

      I should start a food bank…

      • Seeker…
        DO NOT MESS WITH THE POEM… I do not believe it is necessary to “break” the poem down or read stanzas in a different sequence/understand a later stanza to make sense of a previous one.
        I think that the first clue is not a directional clue…that lets the searcher know where the second clue is(WWWH) without having to guess. I think that the winning solve will incorporate the clues in order by reading the poem from the beginning to the end…in order. And yes…a Taco Bank would be nice.

        • Ken, It doesn’t change the “order” of anything… It’s only a different understanding… My example of Joe’s place to all the Walmarts should have explained that.
          Are we “over simplifying” the clues by reading the to linear and straight lined?

          Even IF wwh was the first clue… the poem must tell where that specific wwh is.
          That leaves My example or something similar… or … an actual answer to wwh?

          Everything else is a dart toss.
          Another simple example;
          Start with two eggs… place in mixing bowl… from there add this that and the other ingredients.
          Is the place to start really the eggs, or the bowl?

          • Seeker…as always, I do respect and take your analogies seriously. Your thought process is often logical and in most cases makes perfect sense.
            In this case I will say that most recipes always start by “telling” the chef “where” to start. In a large bowl…sauté in a skillet…mix the first ingredients in a bowl and set aside. Sure…a list of ingredients usually precedes the action part…but the task at hand is not just gathering the goods. The task is to make something yummy. Jeez…forget this…I’m gonna go make pancakes.

          • Alright…I had oatmeal instead.
            As a set of directions to find Fenn’s Treasure…I would submit that the poem should be read and understood in a contiguous manner. Fenn designed it to be difficult, but not impossible. Being ambiguous and certainly cryptic does not mean that it needs to be squirted with lemon juice…held up to the heavens or lit on fire to understand it. I can’t explain my interpretation of the first stanza except to say that (for me) it tells precisely the area to choose wwwh…and begin it. There are a couple of clever twists in the first three clues that can stop the whole process if not aware. This is all just rambling from an adventurer willing to take some chances….

          • Nothing wrong with Oatmeal. I’ve been eating it on my diet for 3 months. Quaker Weight Control whole grain oatmeal (Maple, Cinnamon, and Banana flavor with 4 packets having only 4 grams of sugar)

      • it seems we’re drinking coffee from the same billy, ken

        i also firmly believe that wwwh is the second clue, as i suspect that ‘been wise’ isn’t solely indicative of finding the blaze, but encompasses the whole puzzle adventure from the beginning. therefore (if my theory is correct) solving wwwh involves more than just mere luck, so the poem must (potentially) present more info on it’s specific location than ‘beginning it’ by randomly pinning the tail on the hind quarters of that enormous GE donkey.

        i personally think that ‘been wise’ refers to the first clue more than any of the other eight

        (jeez, that’s some darn good coffee ken – you’re hired!)
        🙂

  54. It’s been nearly 2 days since I sent Dal my solve. He warned me that he may be busy and it could take longer.

    In the meantime, anyone who read my WWWH and checked it out–found that it was SOUTH of Santa Fe. I know I’ll have to clear that up sooner or later. Should we start now?

    • That decision is yours and yours only. I vote…. Let’s discuss. I have to admit, I’m intrigued to find out how you started so far south in NM, and yet end up in the North of NM.

      As I said…. Let’s discuss! 🙂

      • Great. Here goes…

        In my solve, the chest is also south of SF. So far, I gave The Catwalk, near Mogollan, New Mexico as the first clue.

        It is uniquely suited to WWWH, because it starts where Whitewater Creeks water peters out and takes it (the water) in the canyon down. A person needs to research it some to appreciate how exactly it fits. Other pipeline have existed, but are gone now. This one has permanence (sp?) because it is now a national park site.

        Also, the eight other clues fall right in line. Imagine the odds. Because you have been searching–have you ever been able to string all nine clues solidly together? My solve does (IMO).

        The hardest thing will be to convince people that the TC is not North of SF, but I think I can do that also.

        • Whut – NOTHING is impossible -improbably probably, but impossible, no.

          Show us the treasure, and we will ALL be believers. Without the TC, going against what Forrest has stated as fact, will be hard to swallow. Just my opinion. JDA

          • I’m not going to be able to go there. I’m giving it up so the unemployed redneck can go get it.

            There is so much to explain, but when the solve is posted it will help. I think the clues will be compelling, but the S or SF needs to be explained.

            So before someone asks the question, “did I call Forrest a liar?” I’m going to take that question head on.

            In a second, I’ll post a wordy explaination.

  55. Did Forrest lie? (Gasp)

    Am I saying Forrest “lied” about North of Santa Fe and in the Rocky Mountains? I guess I’m saying “Yes”
    This isn’t a crime against humanity. It’s a little white lie and I can see the reasoning behind it. It’s the kind we all tell, eg. “No, honey, that dress doesn’t make you look fat.” Or “I gave at the office.” When I asked women out on dates many years ago, they told me no because they had to stay home and wash their hair.—that kind of “not the whole truth.”

    An earlier poster, I don’t know who, posted she was quitting the chase because she had been lied to twice by Forrest, and she was certain about it. It was about a year ago.

    As a part of the chase—I get it, and I can defend him for a dozen reasons. Some big, important reasons and some just because there are people that deserve it.

    Big, important reasons:
    • Personal safety. If he had included all of New Mexico, imagine how many people would have tried to break in his house (and families’) or dig in his back yard or San Lazo (?)! Thousands!
    • Desire to send it into the future. My belief is that he REALLY wants the chest to be hidden for centuries, so he can be remembered far in the future. I’ve got no problem with that.
    Little reason:
    • He said: All you need is in the poem—play the game the way he designed it. The poem certainly doesn’t say “north of Santa Fe” or “in the Rocky Mountains”
    • Freeloaders who don’t want to play by his rules, and want shortcuts to make their search easier with “hints” deserve what he gives them. Just imagine how many times people have tried to take shortcuts—like they would rather helicopter to the spot rather than follow clues. They get flippant answers—north of Santa Fe: west of Toledo. Read the poem, people. I determined when I first heard about this, that I would not read the chatter from anyone. Only after I was 90% locked in did I lurk the board. The one bit of help was “Tarry Scant” which I wouldn’t have gotten by myself.
    • Ask yourself: why would he not limit the search to parts of other states, but limit New Mexico?

    Forrest also said:
    • Alligators: He keeps a list of sayings in a drawer and looks at them regularly. At the top of his list is: Don’t make the alligators angry until you have crossed the stream. You, my friends, are the alligators. It’s pretty easy to conclude that Forrest wants to be long gone before this truth comes out.
    • What about the “Question that should have been asked, but hasn’t been?” Like in, “Why did you say 66,000 links north of Santa Fe?” Sounds like a flippant answer to a question he didn’t want to answer.
    • Word that is key in the poem—WISE, as in “West …IS…East.” North would be South.
    • Tight focus. Any Scout that made a pinhole camera knows that the image is reversed when passing through the focus.
    Other references:
    • Early explorer maps: A common practice in early days was to alter the maps so only the “right people” would be able to use them. The Spanish did it to keep the English in the dark, and vice versa. Often they printed them upside down so North became South.
    • Pirate maps: Actually there are very few, if any, real pirate maps. Pirates universally split the plunder amongst the crew as soon as possible. They never knew if or when they might return to recover anything they hid. But along those lines—early maps almost always had hidden clues and misrepresentations. These were done so if the map fell into hands other than family or friends, no one could successfully find the treasure. Sometimes a word was misspelled—town was written as “down” for example. Up was down. Landmarks were mis-labled.
    So Forrest, keeper of the map and not wanting to give up the treasure to robbers/freeloaders, stands his ground with mis-information. Simple as that.
    Finally:
    • Explain all the details on Page 99 that correspond with my solve’s location. I’ve highlighted 6, but if I need to, I can point out more. It’s kind of like fingerprints—the more points of similarity the more certain it becomes. Ask yourself: If he was mapping the Mogollon landscape, why would he if the treasure was elsewhere? It can’t be a coincidence that all these points coincide. It was done on purpose.

    If you’ve read all this and still believe the chest is North of Santa Fe and in the real Rocky Mountains, good for you. I wish you well.
    Then again…
    • Maybe it IS north of SF—happy hunting.

    • Whut?,

      Thanks for your well thought out and detailed explanations. You make many valid points, and even though they fly in the face of opposition, you have done a beautiful job of justifying your reasons for following the path that you have chosen.

      Your ‘solve’ is no less valid than any other, IMHO.

      Keep on keepin’ on!

    • Nice write up Whut?…but you have gone the wrong way. I’m not even going to put IMO on this one…
      Just refer back to page 131 TTOTC second paragraph and splain that one away. You seem like a nice person and I do wish you the best and thanks for sharing….

      • That rant was my best attempt. It will have to stand or fall in your estimation.

        Once the solve is posted I think it will help my case.

      • Whut?: why even restrict yourself to the United States if you think the map in TFTW is a complete smoke screen? Forrest has said there are no red herrings, but I’d call that a whopper if he went to the trouble to have a nice map printed up, and then claimed the treasure chest was somewhere in its shaded area when it isn’t. If you think Forrest has been telling a drawer full of little white lies, why assume that there is even a treasure chest at all? Once you allow for one fib, it’s “turtles all the way down” (if you get the reference).

    • LoL… Whuuitt !
      Oh, sorry… Good job. You put a lot of effort and tons of research into your brilliant solve. Study the man, and twisted all the right thing to figure it all out…

      Wonderful work.

    • i certainly applaud your imagination and courage Whut, but on second thought, maybe i should bring you TWO blind-folds

      ..just incase one accidentally falls off 🙂

      • Thanks, Hobbit

        I think the worst is over. If even one person examines the solve dispassionately, I think I’ll get out of this alive.

      • you’re welcome Whut – i (personally) would enjoy reading your solve, and although i’m a loyal member of the ‘north of Santa Fe’ club, i’m certainly open-minded enough to consider any possibility, even just for its entertainment value.

        hopefully Dal will publish your solve in the near future, if he’s not too busy collecting ‘important rocks’ that keep mysteriously appearing out of thin air.

        ( ..lucky he’s not living on a house-boat 🙂 )

    • Whut, you said you had a solve. Don’t see where you solved the poem at all. Are you going to share your solve or was this it? Just curious. You say he is lying, but then use things he has said as truth. Which is it. So, believe some things and not others. If this was anything close to a solve, that would be form fitting. Unless he was lying about form fitting your solve. So, I guess we can mess with the poem at will, look for a treasure that’s not there, and expect this guy put his name, and family out there on a lie. Or are we going to go the 85% thing on this.

    • Go with Santa Fe, Argentina as your southern limit. Or Santa Fe, Brazil, Colombia, Bolivia, etc. Somehow in there your solution is bound to work….

      Interesting ideas anyways, Whut?, for when the rest of us create our own treasure hunts.

    • I to wanted to say something about white lies,but did not have the balls to do so on this blog. I asked Forrest if he has ever been to Canada–He said No. I told him he should come up here for some fresh air and change of scenery, all the while knowing he had been up here in his air force days.I can’t wait to read your solve Whut. I would like to think there are no red herrings in the net but i am starting to snag a few doubt’s .I like what I am reading from you so far.You get your solve posted,Mine might take me further north…Rick

      • at one point i had a south of sante fe solve that i loved. it was the location where geronimo, head of the warm springs indians was arrested, essentially ending (halting) the warm spring indians. the arrest spot was at an incredible slot canyon where a warm spring flowed down into a cold creek. 2 strong wwwh for one location and an astoundingly beautiful spot, with a Brown ranch perched directly above. i had to come up with a reasoning for being south of sante fe because i loved this spot so much for the clues. i came up with the final line “give you title to the gold” as an indication that the title of the poem “where the treasure lies”, which we tend to overlook, had significant meaning. Treasures lie beneath… in this case, possibly beneath sante fe. it is a beautiful location, decent solve, but the rationale for being south of sante fe was ultimately a stretch. it was my early days of hunting. was still a fun trip though :).

  56. are you blocking me as a moderator? My solve is real, and it will hold up to a lot of scrutiny. But the question of “South of SF” has to be addressed and it’s just a matter of time before someone posed the question.

    I would say I’m sorry if it upset you, but I really don’t care. Shold I use the line “The Truth, you can’t handle the Truth?”

    Forrest, if he reads this won’t care. He a grown man, and I’ll bet he agrees with what I’ve said.

    • Whut…I believe the question WAS posed, March 28th, on MW. North not South. And Forrest answered…definitively. “The treasure is hidden in the mountains north of Santa Fe.” As a person with skin in this game, I’m going with the man’s word. Word.

      • I wish Dal would just post the thing. Understand that he probably has a full plate.

        I’ll wait to go on until it’s up.

        • I wouldn’t hold my breath. I believe Dal thinks highly of Mr Fenn and wouldn’t post something basically calling him out. Just my opinion.

    • What?

      You are absolutely wrong about the “lying” and may as well apologize before time and temptations make things worse. Think about this for a moment. If Forrest spent years making comments about, “…North of Santa Fe.” and the trove was found South of Santa Fe, (tomorrow) he would be the ultimate liar before God, family, friends, the national media and tens of thousands of salt-of-the-earth searchers.

      I would state IMO that Forrest is not even opposed to the chest being found ASAP, he simply is allowing his “indulgence” scenario to play out. It is not about “legacy” because that means absolutely nothing to the soul that departs and moves on to meet the Maker and he is wise enough to know that.

      Forrest does not -need- to give any hints or solid clues, yet does so as evidence that he simply wants it to go to the 1st person capable of being, “wise.” These hints and the extra clues are further evidence that he may have some concern that he created a poem that was too crafty for the more simple-minded and too generalized to be solved by the over-thinkers.

      You made a lot of interesting statements – if you were writing a novel, but this is real life and there are real life consequences for actions taken.

      Simply put the reason that he poem does not say “in the Rockies” or “North of Santa Fe” is that it did not have to say that for the poem to -WORK- as intended. You simply have a wrong solve and after all you hard work and research is boiled down to fact, you just need to admit it.

      So the poem was straight forward and the trove was exactly where he placed it. If it is still resting there this very moment, only time will tell.

      No need to debate me over this rebuke. This -very likely- represents my last post on these blogs and I just implore you to think on it, pray it through and act with integrity and responsibly because you have more important and meaningful ways to invest your allotted time.

      • LMN – assuming the national media DID catch Forrest telling a white-lie, i’d imagine the headlines would read:

        Man Caught Red-Handed Telling The Truth – Arrested Immediately

        ..oh how times have changed 🙂

  57. “Did Forrest lie? (Gasp)

    Am I saying Forrest “lied” about North of Santa Fe and in the Rocky Mountains? I guess I’m saying “Yes” ”

    That’s all I had to read from your very large post to skip the rest of it. We all might as well keep looking in Canada– or Idaho for that matter if forrest can’t be trusted.

    • Oh yikes! I’m trying to narrow down the states please do not add more.

      Another thing is finding out exactly where the RM ends and plaines begins…seems like a gray area!

      I personally don’t think FF is a liar.

  58. Hello,
    Since I’m new to this, I don’t know what has been said specifically by FF about the girls in India? I’ve heard it referenced a couple times, but what exactly was said?
    Thanks!
    ~R

    • Hi Roxanne – welcome to Home of Dal (& Goofy too)

      here’s a quote from Jenny Kiles’ amazing web-site (Mysterious Writings) and is a topic that still hasn’t quenched the curiosity of many searchers to date, myself included.

      Jenny: “Can a little girl in India, who speaks good English, but only has your poem and a map of the US Rocky Mountains, work out where the treasure is? And would she be confident as she solves each clue, or only confident when she has solved them all?”

      Forrest: “I wish I had another treasure to hide in the Appalachians. The little girl in India cannot get closer than the first two clues. There are many disabled people who are deeply into maps and geography, and they are having a lot of fun.”

      http://mysteriouswritings.com/six-questions-with-forrest-fenn-over-five-years-of-the-thrill-of-the-chase/

      hope this helps 🙂

      • Wow, awesome response! Thanks so much for that. Hmm… That is an interesting way to answer that. I’m going to have to roll that around for a while…

      • no worries R, your welcome

        i’m new to this puzzle too (six months deep) and firmly believe that Forrest has deliberately set a level playing-field for all searchers involved, new eyes or old

        best of luck
        🙂

  59. Hey, everyone

    I see from Dal’s post at 5 something today that he is out on the chase, so he isn’t aware of any of this and that explains why he hasn’t posted my solve. I was worried that he was getting a headstart, but what little I know from his posts–Dal seems a straight shooter. I trust him.

    So, I’ll wait for him to return, and if he wants to post the entire solve, then we can hash it out in a logical order. You will have plenty of opportunities to find problems with my solve, but I’ll have the opportunity to defend it clue by clue. IMO, someone is going to make a million dollars.

    • Dal has a lot on his plate. My “The Case of The Mirrored Image” post was actually written late January and didn’t get posted until March 🙂

      I’m not really sure what the benefit is of increasing the search area to include south of Santa Fe, when so many are trying to decrease it, but I say go nuts. I’m only chiming in to vouch for Dal’s busy-ness.

  60. If your solution sends you in a direction that only makes sense to you then maybe that is where you should start searching. I think it would be wise to read the poem as it was meant to be read.

  61. I know a few of you had seen my take on WWWH.

    IMO this how I see this stanza.

    Preparing for the Medicine Sweat. Envision is key here.

    The painting depicts women preparing (begin it) for a sweat ritual. This is where hot rocks are carried into the lodge and water is poured over the rocks to create steam. Indians use this when they were ill. Well, when the steam halted it was time for them to get out of the lodge and they would run into a creek or river (canyon down) to cool off or down immediately. They didn’t build seat lodges (not far) from water.
    They ran because it was too far to walk.

    http://titletothegold.com/2016/12/27/river-bathing/

  62. I find it amazing that people still do not pick up on the warm and cold waters that are so important to a fisherman. I suppose that more and more people do not fish. Me, I’m a fishing nut. Build my own rods, terminal tackle, rig my boats, travel far and wide in search of spectacular adventures. Forrest has led me back to stream fishing which I had all but abandon for deep sea, big game frights. Forgot how delicious a fresh caught trout cooked over an open fire on a stick, next to the stream from which it came. The breeze, aromas, sights, sounds and satisfaction to hunger that only Mother Nature can produce. Not a restaurant in the world that can compare!

    • Smelly-
      Many folks have picked up on cold and warm water as it relates to fishing. If you read back in the archives you will see that it is one of the first possibilities that folks searching in NM landed on..
      It may not be a matter of “picking up” on the ideas as much as folks have moved on to other ideas…
      If it works for you and takes you to the chest…excellent!!!

    • The fishing-based lure I found most suggestive was the junction of the Green and Yampa Rivers in Dinosaur.

      “The Upper Yampa holds cold-water species whereas warm-water species are found downstream at river’s end. Somewhere in-between, the two meet with opportunity to fish for trout and pike in the same river spot.”

      But I’d already found that wider area (Wyo-Co-Utah tri-corner) intriguing for other, even more compelling reasons (and still do).

      And some of those compelling reasons are even Chase-related (team Wild Geese has chased there twice, and there’s at least one very good write-up of someone else’s search-solve right here on Dali-World).

      K

      • K
        What year did they vote to change the name of that town? Would it be fair to say ff is a bit of a Dinosaur?

        • Ya ‘ta Hey-O, C9 –

          The name was changed in the 1960’s. The original name was Artesia, and yes, I’m aware of the hint of Hydrostatic Equilibrium in that name (which also keeps us on-topic).

          I was referring to the Nat’l Monument, where the combo of blue-ribbon fishing and dinosaur bones in close proximity also hints at two kinds of riches.

          Suggestive too is that on the first map (in Too Far to Walk), the name Dinosaur NM fades into the haze off the CO/UT border.

          Benchmark then printed a standalone poster-sized version of the map shortly after TFtW, and on that second edition the name Dinosaur NM has been moved and printed clearly (no haze) on the Colorado side of the border.

          Both Fossil Butte NM and Florissant Fossil Beds NM also appear on the Benchmark fenn-maps, for what it’s worth.

          K

  63. imo there are 3 clues that make wwwh
    1 the place that is wwwh
    2 heavy loads and waters high
    3 no paddle up your creek
    south of wwwh not far but to far to walk is hob
    north of wwwh not far but to far to walk is the blaze
    and north of the blaze is in the wood
    all this is just an opinion

  64. Has anyone ever wondered or contemplated the Cold War being wwwh? “My war for me” in TTOTC ,
    FF using the word “my” just got me thinking.
    If someone has brought this up, forgive me in advance, it wld take me days to read all the comments.
    If this is a stupid idea, again please forgive me in advance and ignore my question! ; )))

    • Sweettes;

      For anyone who has had to fight in a war, it is VERY personal. It becomes not “Their” war, but “My” war – “My war for me” – “My” war, and what it meant for and to me. The friendships made, the friends lost, the horrors seen that one tries so hard to forget, but never can. True, there were good times too, but they seem to pale in the reality of what war is. Every service man’s story is the same, yet different, but none the less painful. Sad lessons learned, that MUST be remembered. JDA

      • Thanks JDA,
        I always appreciate your post.
        So WWWH could be in some way the Cold War?
        Forrest Fire
        Cold War those two things came into play for me.
        I have nothing to hide, I will never make it to this spot ,
        Its very intersting though

        Article clipping i found

        HELENA – Ray Brown knows each of the 80 steps that wind in a corkscrew up the 60-foot tower of the Strawberry Butte Lookout.

        In 2011, he manned the tower full time.

        “This was my home,” Brown said. “I love it up here.”

        While working as the fire lookout at Strawberry Butte, Brown lived in the 20-foot-by-12-foot one-room cabin that sits at the base of the lookout tower.

        The cabin contains a bunk bed, a few shelves, a fridge and a two-burner stove. Everything runs on propane.

        “This is literally living, dining and sleeping,” Brown said.

        Brown’s commute every morning involved climbing the 80 steps that lead up the tower to the 8-foot-by-8-foot lookout at the top.

        The lookout, on all four sides, is covered in windows, divided into small square panes. Inside, a vintage fire finder takes up most of the small space. Although it dates back to the early 1940s, the fire finder is still used to pinpoint the location of a blaze. ”

        This look out in particular was also used as a Cold War lookout.

  65. for me home of brown is a large land formation of a beer that is laying on its side with its head and its legs facing north imo that is why I think it says put in below the home of brown – below to me means north – so to me -wwwh heavy loads – blaze – in the wood – and the treasure chest are but in below the home of brown- and I think that the clue for me was when he said that the place was near and dear to him – key word is dear – this is just an opinion

  66. Interesting. After 35 years of studying and reporting on water, I found for the first time I had to use the word “waters” in a formal communication. “Water” just wasn’t the correct word, and the reason is that it was accompanied by a modifier.

    I think I get it now.

    • I’m not a genius-just an old house frau…Water can not be counted. As in 1 water, 2 waters. 1 body of water can be referred to waters.

      Not understanding use of modifier, unless you are taking about breaking down or separating particles.

      • Imaginary Waiter: “Can I get you started with something to drink?”

        Imaginary Restaurant Patron: “You can get us started with two waters for now while we take a look at your drink menu.”

    • It seems to me that Fenn put to rest the question of his use of the word waters (plural) with his recent scrapbook 171. In the picture of the swimming hole which is from his The Secrets of San Lazaro Pueblo book, he wrote “On many occasions, I have jumped out of my dirty, sweaty, smelly clothes and waded into the cool WATERS of this special pool,…” One body of water that is another one of his favorite swimming holes.

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