The Nine Clues…Part Seventy Five

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This page is now closed to new comments. To continue the discussion please go to the latest Nine Clues page.

This is the place to discuss the nine clues…For instance:
What are the nine clues…
Is the first clue “Begin it where warm waters halt” ?

728 thoughts on “The Nine Clues…Part Seventy Five

    • Where warm waters halt. 1( great divide basin), canyon down. 2(Gates of Lodore canyon) No place for meek. 3 (Echo Park) No paddle up your creek. 4( go/look down river (creek) not up against the flow.) heavy loads and water high. 5 (Green river- heavily loaded water with silt. The river carved out the canyon, you can see the high water marks on the canyon walls.) Blaze. 6 ( border of Utah and Colorado on a map) Look quickly down. 7(on a map, on the blaze, look directly down) Tarry scant with marvel gaze. 8 (Harpers Corner Rd.) Hear me all and listen good. 9 (exactly what he says- listen to what he says i.e. “People have been within 500′ searchers have been within 200’…..)

      • P.S. Home of Brown ( Baptiste Brown. Browns park) but it’s not a necessary clue.

  1. There are fellows on the last 9 clues page that needs to play a new version of the show Name That Tune…
    I can find the chest in 21 clues (mrgreen)

  2. As I have gone alone in there and with my treasures bold

    These are the first 2 clues and a confirmation when you solve the poems riddle.

    • or the last 2 clues…. Looks like just one place in there. Aren’t the first two clues separate, specific places?

      thanks,
      -passenger

      • passenger, as you probably know, FF said; the people that (either) came within 200 feet of or walked right past the chest (going from memory here, forgive me if I’m wrong), must not have got the first 2 clues. That seems like a clue of its own.
        So if “in there” is a place, it could even be one of those perchable, canopy-covered look-outs that “look like” the entrance to a cave but are only a few feet deep, but not a cave or mine, tunnel, etc… or.. it could be yellowstone.. FF keeps talking about the west yellowstone area… my $0.22 cents (inflation)

  3. So in scrapbook #180, did anyone notice that in the sketch of hiccup-man, did anyone notice that there are 9 circles in the drawing? Overlay them on a map and the treasure you shall find!

    • Blex. Interesting perspective on the picture you have. For me ,I always have just read the poem like walking my solve in an area. I don’t initially identify the clues as a counting of 9. I just walk with the poem within an area and see after if I can identify 9 clues within the area afterwords. I look at said picture and see my process in a still form.

      • Yeah, I hear you, Alsetenash. I’m just playing around with ideas in my head to pass the time. I think I fall into the camp that there may be more than nine clues, but then again I don’t think it really matters to identify the specific clues and count them off 1 through 9 in order to solve the poem.

    • Blex,

      I just happen to take another look at that drawing and thought what you said. Well I don’t know about the nine circles, but the six gas circles do lay out WWWH, canyon down, hoB, no paddle up your creek, heavy loads, and water high on my map. Just a coincidence, maybe. This is why I like your blog Dal, the different perspectives each searcher has. Thanks Blex for the thought, good luck. Bur

    • I’m glad that something is making sense for you from trying this exercise, Bur. The overlay of sketch on map doesn’t really do anything with my solve, but maybe that just means I’m wrong. The little sketch did seem to me to be the thing that stood out most in the scrapbook #180 post. Why did Forrest add that in? Did he just feel like doodling a little abstract picture to go along with his story? Maybe, or maybe not.

      Maybe the blaze is a similar stick figure carving like the one of the running man that used to be on aspen tree in Forrest’s backyard. But maybe not. I have a mental list of at least a dozen possibilities of what the blaze looks like based on Forrest’s past posts. Maybe it’s one of those or none of those. Ah well, until the snow melts we can continue to wonder about all the possible maybes!

    • I have the location for the overlay but which of the nine is the location of the treasure? As if someone would share that info.
      it just occurred to me, i remember a while back one searcher mentioned to dal or goofy that they were a long way from home and without offering any further info, the response was something to the effect of: wow you are a long ways from home i wonder what clue/hint led you to that location.
      dal and or goofy,
      Are yall able to determine the location of commenters on this blog?

      • Ron I remember the comment you’re talking about. I can’t remember who it was right now. He was out of the country so I was joking with him about the clues. He didn’t mention on the blog where he was so I didn’t either.

        I guess that answers your other question. We can tell the location of the IP they are logged into. But it doesn’t give a precise location.

  4. I believe. that the poem is Finns way of expressing and reflecting his life’s experiences through a medium (poetry) that conveys a melancholic tone. Yes it may contain a map but it takes you to a place both literally and figuratively where beautiful landscapes allow one’s soul to be soothed. There is a painting by Remington called “Taking Down the nigh leader” so I believe nigh to be in front not night fits better in the context of the poem. Further heavy loads I think is used both to signify boulders and the lodes of silver and gold taken out of the Rockies both new and old. I think many of the words have double meanings and are chosen to romanticize the poem.

  5. OFF TOPIC-
    Today was a tough day for the blog. I don’t know why…
    If you experienced trouble or received peculiar feedback when you posted a comment …you were not alone….

    I had a heck of a time getting everything posted. I’ll bet I had 4 failures for every successful attempt at posting or updating pages today…very frustrating..
    At any rate, things seem to have calmed down at this hour..

    Sorry for the inconvenience…

    dal-

    • Thanks Dal I was wondering…. I posted something around 3:30 your time but it did not seem to post until 6:30… I am on the East coast right now so I thought maybe it got lost in the circuitry across the grid or I was in a time warp 🙂

    • It looks like the slowdown and hiccups on the blog today may have been caused by an attack. We had a large number of attempts to break into the blog today. This happens every once in awhile. I don’t know what intruders expect to find hidden away in the blog vault but I am certain their expectations exceed reality. There is nothing there of value. We don’t have any credit card numbers or personal information. About the worst thing anyone could walk away with is several tens of thousands of email addresses…
      Anyway…no one got in. The door is still secure and has never been breached…
      But a prolonged attack takes it’s toll on the efficiency of the blog until finally it slows down and chokes up…

      • Well as always we you and Goofy big thank you for your dedication and hard work on our behalf.

        If you read the previous page I wonder if you are now considering changing the name to

        The Nine, Eleven, Seventeen or Who Knows How Many Clues.

      • Forrest,

        I think you should send The Warrior Kachina doll to Dal to help defend the sanctity of HOD and as a reward in Fennding () off the hack attack.

        Pinatubocharlie

      • Would there be an archive of search terms? I doubt that would be of enough interest to hack as you’d still have to identify/interpret them, but just thinking out loud.

        On a related note, I sometimes wonder if you (Dal) can access what people search for on the site. It’d be a pretty ingenious way to benefit from the site, IMO so I personally wouldn’t be mad, though I suspect others might. I guess it’s irrelevant if you’ve given up searching yourself, now that I think about it. Now I’m curious how much someone would be willing to pay for a search term report (not that I personally think it would be a lot of help)…

        • Fmc-
          I don’t know if I can access the search terms folks use on the site. I also don’t see why knowing that would benefit anyone in any way. There are close to a thousand views an hour on this site right now. Why would it be valuable to know if folks were searching for the term “Forrest Fenn” or “Brown’s Canyon” or “Minerva”?
          I know that I can access the search terms folks use to get to the site and what sites led people to this site and I can also say that generally those search terms are the same today as they were six years ago.
          Finally…who the heck said I gave up searching?
          I have not!
          I’ve been searching for 6.5 years and I think I almost have the first clue figured out…why on earth would I stop now???

          • I think it would be more if anything was unusual that you could then explore on your own – probably a needle in a haystack thing in any case…

            I must have misread something from awhile back about you stopping searching (or maybe it changed back at some point). I’m vaguely remembering something about the appearance of inside information or something, but I don’t remember all the details.

          • I used to think that input from searchers would be a major advantage for Dal, but I’ll bet all that ‘static’ he receives is much more of a hindrance than help.

            -Randawg.

            (Note: An automotive site that I visit listed their top searches and they were ‘naked girls’ and ‘boobs’.) 🙂

          • randa-
            lol…well I don’t think those are our top search words…I looked around a little bit but I didn’t see where internal search phrases are listed…maybe that info is there…but I don’t know about it…

            in all honesty..about the only time I look at the stats is for our “annual report” in January…and that is just to satisfy my curiosity about where folks on this site come from and how many of us there are on a daily basis..
            I don’t read everything that is posted on this site every day..I just can’t keep up.

            Fmc…you’re right…I did threaten to quit at one time when the trolls got me down…and you are correct that I was accused of having too much inside information and therefore it was unfair to everyone else if I continued searching…

            All I can say is..
            Look where it’s all gotten me…
            So I think it’s YOU’RE fault…apparently the information you leave here isn’t very good…so how about leaving better information!!!!

      • Hi Dal.

        When trouble occurs….we send in “Dal – Cyber Terrorism Extraordinaire!”

        Nicely done!

        I come her to be under the safety net of the HoD and knowing Dal is always there to protect me.

        *hug*

      • I hate the guys in black hats – grrr. They make life tough for the law-abiding citizens here on the inter-webs.

        Thanx to you and Goofy for your diligence – it is appreciated.

      • randa,
        I’m a bit of a motor-head myself…enjoy tinkering with the classic muscle cars. What was the name of your automotive site? Just out of curiosity… for the article… in-case I need to get my motor up and running.

          • LOL I was just having some fun with your post. But thanks for the site. I went to have a look see… hoping to find a nice set of headlights… and notice the scrolling pics of the VW’s.

            I had a 1970 Bug with an autotstick.. no clutch. The first time I got in it, I thought someone broke the clutch pedal off. The little beep beep got 42 mpg, and originally cost new about 3,000 $
            LOL Prius starts at 24,000 $ and 53 – 58 mpg with all those batteries… Only, try driving a Prius in a foot and half of snow, lol… the little Bug never slowed down.

            Thanks again.

      • Dal, I want to thank you for your incredible due diligence, and your blogs!
        I completely understand your frustrations! I know personally I’ve been hacked “WHY”, I have no idea! I have nothing anyone would want!
        It’s just a pain and it really makes me crazy, so hang in there!
        Best regards, Martha

    • Hi Dal: had a bunch of inability-to-connect messages today, but they always resolved within 30 seconds or so. You and Goofy run a tight ship and I applaud your collective skills at keeping everything running so smoothly. Denial of service attacks have become so commonplace that it was only a matter of time before a popular site like yours would get hit. My kudos for your (you and Goofy’s) preemptive measures that clearly allow you to weather these infrequent storms.

  6. Lugnutz, you said

    “Pinotubacharlie –
    You didn’t ask but I will tell you what I think.
    No structures, nothing made by man at all. Just clues to places in nature. Mountains streams woods. You know. Fenn stuff.”

    I am always open to other ideas, but have to respectfully disagree. Forrest said the chest, underscore chest, is not associated with a structure, but to my knowledge, he has never said the clues in the poem leading to the chest are not associated with a structure(s).

    Please correct me if I am wrong, but I would also ask that you support your argument with a quote.

    Good luck out there and watch out for them critters.

    Pinatubocharlie

    • If F said the treasure could be found 100 or 1,000 yrs from now…the poem would be needed! Would man-made structures used as clues, still be standing?
      IMO, I don’t think so. F said the mountains are always moving…this tells me the clues are a natural creation and may be destroyed by Mother Nature’s wrath at some point. I believe most of the clues, if not all, are natural.
      Again, IMO.

      • While that’s an OK premise, something that doesn’t exist anymore physically can still be “found”. For example, I could say- go find the Madison River Lookout tower (It wont be on any current maps)… But if you found the right USGS topo map you would see that it was on a small rise south of the west entrance road a couple of miles from West Yellowstone, overlooking the west entrance and the Madison River valley. Some pieces of it still remain.

        Cool view btw… IMO of course

        • Jim,
          While the concept of research would provide that information… how much research outside the poem {and the book as helpful} do we really need to do?

          One solve recently used a faded sign as part of an answer to what a clue refers to… how do we research a sign 100-500 years from now?

          I’ll add the same about names… a single location, a river, mountain etc. in just the past 500 years could have had a Cherokee name, a French name, a Spanish name, an English name… not to mentions all the alternative names given to places. Example; Horsetail Falls, Yosemite – Called Lava Falls or Gold falls. Which I’ll add, never became a National Park until Oct. 1890. How many names were give to the falls prior?

          And private land? Holy crap, can you imagine researching hundreds, if not thousands of names? or if it became commercial land, or taken by eminent domain… rinse and repeat over a few hundred years.

          I would like to think fenn is a bit smarter to apply the physical surroundings of the land itself as viable clue reference..imo. Sure there will be changes, the RM’s are still moving, however, those changes are normally slower and can be understood with some knowledge of geography { the Subject hopefully taught in schools}… such as how Earth Quake lake became. No real research needed, and more observation of what the land looks like… how one can see the area with it’s 20′ faults movements of the land, a side of a mountain that slid down blocking a river etc. etc.

          Do we not commonly know that a valley could have been formed by a the movement of an accident glacier, or how the great lake got their waters or because of the water flow of Niagara falls and erosion of the water… the falls were farther south then present day?

          I have pondered the thought that those who indicated, deciphered, located the first two clues didn’t understand they did…even though the may have mentioned what fenn refers to as the clue… but they didn’t understand why it was a clue.

          Hence my though… maybe “begin it where…” is both present day for a searcher, but in the past for the clues. Begin it where in time.

          Thinking down the road {centuries}?
          Knowledge of geography?
          Could have written poem before he hid the chest?
          fenn’s passion for archeology { the past }?
          fenn thinking he was born 100 years to late?

          Is “thinking” meant to spend thousands of hours doing research, or “observing” on maps and/or GE, or “analyzing” those whatIf, by tossing darts… Where does “imagination” come into play with all this research, or codes, or metal detectors or converting to another language, studying the bible…etc. ?

          “I’m not flippant about this. It’s not something somebody is going to be able to do on spring break or a Sunday afternoon picnic. I’m looking a hundred years down the road, maybe a thousand years down the road. People don’t understand that.”

          Just more of Seeker’s ramblings and rumblings

        • Seeker;

          I think that knowledge of geography (and even geology) will be a key to understanding why Forrest picked his “Special Spot”. If only we could slip into Forrest’s mind for a few moments. JDA

          • I also subscribe to a naturalistic solve. Place names are man-made and change over time. “Soft” biology (trees, plants, animals, etc.) changes through the course of time and climate too, but if a clue needed to last 1,000 years, it would need to be geographical IMO.

            “Q: Did the same 9 clues exist when you were a kid and to your estimation will they still exist in 100 years and 1000 years? “The clues did not exist when I was a kid but most of the places the clues refer to did. I think they might still exist in 100 years but the geography probably will change before we reach the next millennia.”

      • That’s a great question Donna and the answer is very simple.

        It’s something an archeologist like f runs into everyday. You have you conduct research, locate good maps, go to the library. It’s hard and tedious work. That is all I have been doing since I joined the search. For instance, I have found maps of Yellowstone from the late 1800s, maybe earlier, showing where many structures that no longer exist were built. Are they of the Google quality? Certainly not. Think a napkin map, though a little better than that. Much interpretation required. And IMO some of the structures identified on those maps directly correlate to clues in the poem.

        I have since moved on to a different location, but it remains a backup plan.

        Bottom line. In a 1,000 years, research will be key and the level of difficulty for the correct solve will likely be an order of magnitude greater. But I’m betting on the opposite.

        Hopes that answers your question.

        Pinatubocharlie

        • Pinatubocharlie,
          LOL, your post to Donna and My post to Jim were 1/2 hour apart. {that might be for the fact I’m a slow typist}

          I’m not laughing at your comment… I’m laughing how two people can look at the same information provided { the after the fact comments } and come up with completely opposite thoughts.

          I guess my question to you would be this… why would fenn want us to do all that research if needed to solve the poem. { it doesn’t matter who or when [present or future searcher] researching is being done, just why would he want that? }

          • Seeker,

            I honestly don’t recall if you are in the poem only camp or not, but as soon as a searcher looks up a word you don’t recognize, looks at a map, reads some history about whatever, put BOTG, whether you like it or not, you are conducting research…….IMO.

            I know Forrest has said you only need the poem. I cannot argue that. However, and as I said to Donna, this is very similiar to archeology and if one so chooses to focus ONLY on the poem, then I believe that puts you at a disadvantage. I can’t prove it, but I do not f has ever ruled out conducting any form of research, but I would like to remind you that he did mention Google Earth as a good resource………..research.

            That’s how I see it, but as you point out, 2 people can see the same thing so differently. That’s why we debate.

            Thank you for giving me the opportunity to clarify what I was trying to say to Donna.

            Pinatubocharlie

          • IMO every single searcher is doing research. As I see it, research is just finding stuff out. Careful though and remember to re-search. After reading Mr. Fenn’s account of the findings he made that were contrary to what had been taken as valid. He now has caused the historians/archeologists to revise the time line. I think that’s an example of re-search.

          • Pinatubocharlie,
            I’m not in any camp really… I camp solo.
            I can argue the grass is green on both sides of the fence as well,
            As to research…

            I don’t think looking up word[s] or any information one is not familiar or needs to simply review, is research… just common sense… the same as using tools to help, Maps, GE etc. I don’t think fenn took into any consideration our [a searchers’] ignorance. But we all have the same information he gave out and we all have the same opportunity, and told us, all the information to find the chest is in the poem…That’s about as fair as anyone can be.

            The question is not about what each searcher looks at for help… it more about… Did fenn “plan” on us to have to do all kinds of research to solve the clues? I don’t believe it is a necessity, or fenn’s “planning” of the challenge, to make us do tens of thousands of hours in research to solve the poem. The only thing fenn repeats about solving the clue is “go back to the poem”

            Kinda takes away the thought to get away from the game room and electronic idiot machines.

          • Seeker,

            I really do understand where you are coming from and wholeheartedly agree about video games and everything else associated with that aspect of what they call “life”.

            Maybe I’m the joker, the outcast if you will, because I attacked this quest from a different angle. I conducted a huge amount of research at the front end to include catching up on all the SB and other posts from f in order to get up to speed if you will. I was literally drinking from the fire hose. I began to notice things, sometimes a pattern, sometimes a word or phrase, or a name that meant something to me.

            I am now convinced many were hints I had discovered. Leads, much like those a detective uses to solve a crime. Those leads took me to places I did not know existed, places in history and in geology. And some of those took me back to the poem. That’s when the light went bright and I started seeing things in the poem that seemed to make sense because I thought I was beginning to understand fans what’s important to him as a person and human being.

            Finally one day, while researching a hunch on the internet something caught my eye and it didn’t take long for me to jump into that rabbit hole. SBs were finally making sense, TTOTC too, from a searching perspective.

            So I don’t discount the potential importance of anything, but research is a very integral part of my strategy.

            Later

    • PTC –

      So as not to misspell your name I am using the PTC abbreviation.

      I am expressing an opinion. AN opinion that Forrest reveres nature and cares not for trappings of modern society. It’s my opinion that he would not use buildings and manmade junk in his poem or his search.

      Lugnutz

      • Lugnutz,

        Arriving at that conclusion is to ignore due diligence, though I completely agree he “reveres nature”, as do I. So much so that I live in the mountains where the nearest town with more than one grocery store is 25 minutes away. Sorry for the tangent.

        But f did say he hid the treasure, so again, it could be under, inside, behind something……if it is not buried I should add. So why would I not lift up an old door or piece of metal laying on the ground if I run across it? And if it’s metal, it will last a very long time before being reclaimed by nature, but it most likely also be covered with dirt, forest duff, who knows what in the future if not found in the not to distant future.

        So going full-circle I find myself back to the subject of my first post. A door is related to a structure, so by association, if the chest was hidden under that door, would it not also be associated with a structure? Just saying. Think about it.

        Take care………Pinatubocharlie

      • Lug, Forrest has amassed an unbelivable collection of almost all “MAN MADE STUFF” and it cost him a fortune, so I would say he truly revers stuff..just sayin!

        TT

        • TG

          Sure things made by hand of natural materials.
          There just ain’t gonna be no doors or tires or pieces of junk to look under in my opinion.

          Be sure to let me know if I wrong and the tc is under a piece of trash in the mountains he finds his religion in.

          Lugnutz

      • Forrest cares intensely for the trappings “things” tools, jewelry, BOOKS, art, anything old and good…of by gone civilizations.

      • Lugnutz,

        Before totally writing off the possibility of the chest being hidden under what I will term a “man-made” object, please consider the following.

        TTOTC – Important Literature – “Just as I was about to ask the little girl at the computer about those authors, she raised her coffee cup to take a sip. And I swear that cup all but covered her whole face. I thought maybe she was trying to hide.”

        TTOTC – Jump Starting the Learning Curve – the story about the school fire escape. “So on occasion, when Miss Ford was was writing Spanish words on the blackboard, I’d quickly slip through the window and down and away. I was proud to have thought of that idea all by myself………….Fortunately, I was the only one in the class who knew that trick, the sliding I mean, and even though that rusty old iron thing marked the tail of my britches pretty good with a heavy brown color, it was worth it.”

        “HIDE” – ” RUSTY OLD IRON THING” – “WORTH IT”

        Then just today, SB 182, Rusted Remnants of History, was posted. Two wonderful old log cabins destroyed by fire and only rusty nails left behind. But more than nails could remain in someone’s search area depending on the “thing’s” purpose and nature.

        Again, I am NOT saying the TC is under rusty “junk” as you say. I’m just saying that a reasonable interpretation of these quotes and now SB 182 could lead one to believe it MIGHT be. After all, if you were to run across something like that in your target zone, are you saying you’re really going to ignore it without seeing if anything is underneath?

        What does it cost to keep an open mind?

        Have a good safe search next week….Pinatubocharlie

        • It seems like everyone is convinced that FF is dropping hints in these blog post. Is that just an assumption or is there reason to believe that he actually is? I sort of wonder if FF is just messing with us with some of these.

          Thanks!

          • Don’t get me wrong though, I do enjoy reading them. Just wondering if I should be studying them too.

          • No one can say for sure at this point, Aaron. I used to think that none of his posts contained hints, but now I think some of them do. But I could be wrong.

            Some people seem to think that Forrest is having a coded dialogue with one or more of the searchers through his posts. I don’t agree with this idea, but again I could be wrong.

            Hopefully we’ll all eventually find out the truth.

          • I think it’s like ttotc in that you can mold stuff to your solve if you’re so inclined. Whether they are intentional clues is another matter. I see some stuff with my solve and reconciling some thoughts I’ve had but nothing earth-shattering.

          • I MO

            He does not give hints in scrapbooks. Doing so would provide unfair advantage to readers of this blog. In particular if he knows I’m searching Ponce DeLeon Springs and then he gives a hint he is strongly supporting me over Jake.

            He has said he would not do so and I take Fenn at his word.

            Lugnutz

          • Look at it this way Lugnutz.

            Say a developer wants to build a new mall. One requirement in the permitting process is to conduct a public hearing, so he publishes a notice in the local newspaper announcing the date and time of the hearing. Maybe a few other places too.

            Say I’m out of town when the notice is published and miss it, or say I don’t read the local newspaper. Even though I was completely unaware of the hearing the developer has met the requirement to notify the public.

            I am sure f has said things on Jenny’s blog that have not been said here and vice versa. IMO it’s now in the public domain. If I miss something important because I’m not paying attention then I have myself to blame, and I have for sure missed a few.

            Like I mentioned or at least inferred in my earlier post this morning, I don’t think anyone can afford to ignore anything f says or publishes. That’s my opinion for what it’s worth.

            Pinatubocharlie

          • Hi Aaron and welcome to the Chase.

            When I first began the Chase last August I didn’t have an opinion one way or the other. After a huge amount of research over the next few months, I discovered what I believe to be the word that is key. Following that lead and older SB posts took me to the search area I am focused on.

            I now see hints, some very subtle, some not so much, everywhere in SBs and TTOTC (I don’t have TFTW) that support my search area. Frankly though, some, but not many SB posts have me stumped if indeed there’s a hint included. Sometimes a rose is just a rose.

            Are there thousands of hints like some claim? IMO, no. But hints are surely out there.

            Many will say I’ve got a severe case of confirmation bias, a fair point of debate. Examples would make a very compelling circumstantial case, but that’s all I have now, a good circumstantial case. Time will tell.

            Enjoy your Chase and please take care,

            Pinatubocharlie

          • No worries Aaron. I racked my very old brain trying to come up with something I could share as an example, but even something seemingly innocent could easily compromise my search area, though I’d be very naive to think I don’t have competition.

            If I think of an example I’ll be sure to share. If you don’t have TTOTC I suggest you get a copy. Very worthwhile IMO.

            And despite what some may say, research, research, research. Even if I never set my eyes on the chest, I will never regret for a moment the time I’ve spent chasing the chest. What I’ve learned through this process cannot be measured and I have Forrest to thank. Thank you Forrest.

            And thank you Dal and Mr. Goofy too as always.

            Pinatubocharlie

          • I think I would keep my examples to myself too. I do have TTOTC and have read it twice, as FF suggested. I found a lot that could be hints but still working on how they would help with a clue. I have TFTW as well and have about half of it read. I do not think I have seen any mention of hints in it so I have been taking my time with that book.

            One thing I will say though is that if you think hard enough you can turn almost anything into a hint. I feel like there is a fine line between that and determining if it actually makes sense enough to help with a clue. If I am not the one that finds the TC I hope to hear how any hints helped the person.

          • Aaron,

            This may come as a surprize, but I didn’t get TTOTC until after I decided on my search area. Not intentional, just the way it worked out.

            Now, the more times I read it, the more I find. Just yesterday I found a rock-solid confirmation that not only validates I’m in the right area, but also validates something f posted in a SB some time ago. You could say they are opposed to one another, but at the same time equal in 2 totally distinct ways. Think apples=oranges, something like that. And it’s easy to prove too, just not now. But hurry….now is the time to act….but wait…..if you buy now we’ll send …………

            I know you understand why I can’t share and I hope everyone else does too. Sure hope I can get there to search before ………..

            Pinatubocharlie

          • Lugnutz, I do not remember reading a statement from Forrest anywhere saying that he would not give hints in his posts. Do you remember where he said this? I do not think so many people would be sniffing around for possible hints in his posts if he came out and said something like that. But if you can point out where he said that, I’ll definitely change my tune.

            He has confirmed that there are subtle hints in his book. This would give a possible advantage to those who read his book. IMO, I do not think that Forrest would have any qualms about throwing out similar subtle hints in his posts; especially if those hints are not worth much of anything on their own and only make sense when held up to a possible solve that was arrived at using the poem alone.

          • I’ll give an easy example based off of the most recent scrapbook #182 from yesterday. Forrest writes: “Nature frequently takes away, and in doing so she always looks at the big picture.”

            In a Q&A on the Mysterious Writings site from 8/12/14, Forrest writes: “Look at the big picture, there are no short cuts.” http://mysteriouswritings.com/featured-questions-with-forrest-warm-waters-and-geography/

            Now we have two references to a possible hint of “looking at the big picture”. Is that a hint? Maybe, maybe not. If it is, it gives an advantage to those who have read scrapbook #182 and the MW Q&A, but I believe that the advantage is negligible. I also can’t see one instance being a hint without the other also being a hint. I therefore come to the personal conclusion that some posts contain hints.

            Forrest has already added a ton of qualifying statements outside of the poem over the years, that also give advantage to those who know them (see the Cheat Sheet on this site for a good summary). I consider these statements to be more than subtle hints and think of them as supplementary clues, as they are clear, hard facts and not “little winks” by Forrest. If anyone does not agree with this, then by all means go searching all of the Utah outhouses below 5,000 feet in elevation to your heart’s desire.

          • Personally, I think even your example above overcomplicates it, but I’m going to hold off on my takeaway and save it for my reveal/failed solve explanation.

          • Aaron-
            I think folks here have addressed your first question pretty well. I want to address your last pondering:

            “I sort of wonder if FF is just messing with us with some of these.”

            I certainly don’t think Forrest is “messing” with anyone by posting these scrapbooks. I think he is “sharing” with us the small, sometimes hidden parts of his life that make up the whole.

            In my opinion we need to understand Forrest in order to understand his poem and to understand the kind of place he might have selected to end his life in 1988 and hide his chest when he was 79 or 80.

            I believe this strongly and that’s why I interviewed Forrest on video and posted those interviews on this blog.

            Each one of these short capsulated stories allows Forrest to share with everyone, who cares enough to read them, some small part of his nearly 87 years of experiences that add up to his life story. I think of them as a serialized biography…or as a “not so daily” diary of events that have made him who he is.

            Because they are important to him, they are important to me as I try to understand precisely how to interpret the poem that he has challenged me to solve. So, in that way, I do believe they contain hints…but not hints to the secret of the location of the chest…rather, to understanding Forrest himself and therefore understanding his poem.

            As six years have clearly demonstrated..the poem is not easy to understand. No one has yet cracked the poem. The poem is key to finding the chest and I believe that understanding Forrest better will better help us understand his poem.

            He is not “messing” with us. He is providing insight…He is sharing…

          • *applauds*

            I’ve been saying the same thing for years.

            Understanding Forrest is the key to solving this mystery. Understanding his motive is a given, but to understand him esoterically – the “Whys” – can be quite beneficial.

            Keep at it Dal….I personally think you have the right path.

            BTW – have you ever went “looking for Forrest Fenn” in any of the manners he speaks about in his adventures?

            I would think you have with the many outings you have done to look for the chest…..but did you really “look for Forrest” or just for his treasure chest?

            :o)

            Thanks again for the HoD and good luck!

          • Thanks for all of the replies. I totally get what you are saying Dal. FF has a lot of great stories and collected items to share. It is nice that he has a forum here to share it with and that we can all enjoy the posts. I love unique collectibles that he talks about so I enjoy reading them.

            I try to put myself in his shoes though. Personally I think it might be fun to add something in that includes the number 9 or something to that effect just to see how people react to it. Not in a way that misleads people at all but just to keep people in the game maybe. Not saying he would but I just like to think about all possibilities.

            I don’t know how much I should study them for hints. Maybe we will know more when the chest is found.

          • It’s a fact Aaron. He has dropped extra hints in his posts either here or Mysterious Writings…or both. It just falls to the searcher to find them, and that’s where the debates arise.
            And just in case you were wondering how I can say it is indeed a fact, and not my opinion… I’ll offer you words from the proverbial horse’s mouth:
            http://mysteriouswritings.com/six-questions-yet-again-with-forrest-fenn-always-a-treasure/
            Jenny: You have said you hadn’t deliberately placed these subtle hints in your book; but have you done so in any of your other writings mentioned in Question two (scrapbooks, vignettes, etc)?
            Forrest: I don’t want to broaden the clues and hints I’ve written about by pointing them out.

            If he had put no hints in the SBs, Vignettes, etc… then there would be nothing to decline pointing out.
            Hope that helps answer your question with clarity 😉

          • WIll –

            He is in my opinion referring to hints and clues he cops to. The ones in the book and on TV etc. He doesn’t want to expound on those.

            I don’t have JCMs book but someone who does can pull the relevant quotes. The relevant quotes are the ones referring to reading blogs for entertainment because they are not necessary. The quotes about not giving an unfair advantage to readers of a specific blog. My recollection is that he was referring to Jenny’s blog when he said it. There is also the quote after the Today interviews when he said he will not give more clues.

            If you choose to think he is giving hints you are welcome to. The old man is not gong to comment here and say “Yo! there are no clues in the scrapbooks or letters.” ‘Cause it wouldn’t be fun to do so.

            And just for fun I will remind the folks that have been around for 5 Letters to Forrest or longer. A bunch of us went nuts reading into Brett’s letter because it was thought Forrest wrote it. Then Brett showed up and told us there are no hints, just my letter as a I wrote it. THEN someone still said there were clues because even though Fenn didn’t compose the letter he CHOSE it for publication because it contained hints or clues or whatever you want to call them.

            So IMO these letters and srapbooks contain no hints or clues. They do inform us about the man.

            Also if anyone wants to take the time I suggest reading every quote by DAL in the following link:

            http://dalneitzel.com/2013/09/04/dal-whines/

            My two cents
            Lugnutz

          • Good point IW. Not sure if it is solid enough evidence to go on but there isn’t really any easy way of knowing. Thanks

          • I am surprised no one has made reference to this comment yet…

            Q. Do you intend to keep releasing occasional small hints for as long as you live? Have you made any plans for clues to continue surfacing after your death?
            A. No sir.
            (May 15)
            http://dalneitzel.com/2017/02/25/scrapbook-one-hundred-sixty-six-2/

            I have readily asked myself if f was answering both questions, or just the second one.

            Early 2015 was a bit rough for f with the whole bungled NM tourism ad. I suspect that he may have either excluded too many places and narrowed down the search area with his comment, or that he misspoke and unintentionally excluded the area where the chest was hidden by his comment, and then had to back-pedal to get it back into play — while also trying NOT to rule out the area related to his comment.

            While that dust was settling in early 2015, f then went mostly quite for many months through 2015. Maybe he changed his mind somewhere along the way about hints in his stories and other writings if his intention in May 2015 was to NOT release any more hints.

            This one has been one of the more difficult situations to read with f.

          • JCM –

            Thank you. That is just one of the quotes from 2013-2015 where Forrest mentions not giving hints and or clues or favoring readers of a particular blog..

            When we read a scrapbook it’s natural to see a connection when no connection exists. It’s fun to talk about and there is a lot of good old fashioned humor on this blog.

            I just don’t think the man gives out hints to help searchers. I would love to hear what anyone, like Zap, says is a hint. Something that actually refers to a place where they have a solve. If someone does so we can, at some point in the future, definitively know whether there was a hint or not.

            Lugnutz

          • Could just be lack of imagination on my part, but I think that time spent hunting for hints is time spent not getting closer to the chest.

            IMO
            K

          • J A Kraven – It might be your imagination, but it might also be not knowing all that f has said about the topic…

            When f says things like:

            – I’ll tell you how to do it…
            – If you are serious about looking for the treasure…
            – What I recommend…
            – What I tell people to do…
            – I have some advice. … That is the best advice I can give.

            and all the statements are about using the ‘hints’ to solve the clues, then I think that the ‘hints’ just might be worth looking into.

            But everyone is welcome to pursue their solve as they best see fit. And I am sure there will be a lot of great vacations taken. 🙂

          • J A Kraven: well said. If this dang snow would stop falling and get on with melting, I wouldn’t be hint-hunting to pass the time. It’s better than twiddling my thumbs at least.

          • IronWill ~”It’s a fact Aaron. He has dropped extra hints in his posts either here or Mysterious Writings…or both…” “…how I can say it is indeed a fact, and not my opinion… I’ll offer you words from the proverbial horse’s mouth:”
            ————————–
            Fenn’s answer to the question doesn’t add or eliminate after the fact comments. The only “facts” we know of as actual hints and clues written in the book and the poem… even fenn call the after the fact “clues” useless. Stated other clues like; east of Toledo and not in Nevada won’t help. Even has recently stated the comment about a flashlight and a sandwich are certainty not clues.
            Yet, even after that post of Q&A’s, folks still want to argue that fenn only tells 85% of the truth, and a flashlight is a clue in their perfect solve…{ they might as well just call him a liar, but I guess it’s just nicer to say it the other way.} This seems to make those searchers feel better about themselves when they fail to find the chest that they “know where it is” with 50′ or 12′ and 3’… and wanting to state their opinion as fenn’s facts.

            Aaron, while it’s great to shoot the breeze with others who have the same interest as you { the chase } use your own head… the egotesticles and egotypicals have no clue at all to what is fact or not. That has been proven time and time again…

          • Seeker wrote: the egotesticles and egotypicals have no clue at all to what is fact or not. That has been proven time and time again…

            I agree with what I think you are trying to say, but your use of the non-words { egotesticles and egotypicals } has me rolling on the floor, laughing.

            I hope your intent was to be humorous, and if not intended to be humorous, it is still funny (to me)! (I think FF would love your word choice) 🙂

            Have a great day!

          • Haha, well I do enjoy reading what everyone has to say and like to hear people’s thoughts and opinions here. I take notes sometimes but nobody’s hints here has helped me with a solve that I feel good about yet.

          • Ya ‘ta Hey-O, JCM –

            Re my response to Aaron about hint-hunting, you wrote:

            “It might be your imagination, but it might also be not knowing all that f has said about the topic…
            When f says things like:
            – If you are serious about looking for the treasure… etc . . .
            and all the statements are about using the ‘hints’ to solve the clues, then I think that the ‘hints’ just might be worth looking into. ”

            I agree that being aware there are hints in TOTC is . . . a thing to be aware of.

            But when ff follows “if you’re serious about looking . . . ” with
            “. . . go back and read the book again but slowly, looking at every little abstract thing that might catch up in your brain, that might be a hint to help you with the clues.”

            I dunno man . . . how’s that working out for all y’all that go that route?

            It’s natural to think that more info is good. Trouble is, ff has never, that I know of, said whether any searcher has ever correctly identified a hint. Has he?

            So I’ve come back around to the “less is more” approach. If I’m looking for a needle in a haystack, last thing I want is more straw.

            Another thing to consider: is the guy that knows the answers really our best guide on how to proceed? I DON’T mean that ff is or would be deliberately misleading.

            How to articulate what I mean by that . . .

            Okay, think about this unanswerable question:

            “Mr Fenn, if you could somehow erase all memory of secreting the chest and writing the poem, how long do you think it would take YOU to solve the chase?”

            K

          • Thanks for the reply, all very good points. The responses to this question have confirmed my initial suspicion that everyone has a different opinion on the hints and everyone approaches them differently. It is fun to see how many hints people can gather from one post. For some it seems like the hints have helped people with their solve but then how much did they help or hinder if you show up to your location and no TC is there?

            I’ve decided that I will keep my eyes out for hints but not reach much to make try and make them fit.

  7. Bold…bowled
    Where…ware
    My treasures bold…F put his chest into a bowl made by nature, a depression.
    He can keep his secret where, ( sounds like “ware”) since it was (sounds like) “bowled”, it made it “ware”, like glass ware, silverware, China ware, etc.
    So he bowled his treasure and it became secret ware.
    Just keeping the poem’s voice the same, putting a different imaginative spin on what a child would see in their mind if listening to it. I’ve found several other places in the poem that are like that!

    • But isn’t that ‘messing with his poem?’ Not criticizing, just asking. I think that may have been applicable if he only spoke it and didn’t have it in writing. But that is not the case here.
      Good luck all.

      • Ya ‘ta Hey-O, Kevin

        Here’s my take on your question –

        “So hear me all and listen good” could be one of the clues in the poem, and, “if followed precisely”, would lead you to read the poem out loud a time or three.

        Or better yet have it read to you.

        Have someone read it to you slurred, or with a drawl, or like they’re acting Shakespeare, or like Mick Jagger or Bob Dylan – think of Jimi Hendrix singing “scuse me, while I kiss this guy”.*.

        I ain’t sayin’ it’s The Way, but it does seem like a perfectly reasonable path to explore.

        And I’ll admit that we’ve taken turns reading the poem aloud more than a few times, so that we can listen to and hear it as well as read it.

        “Twas brillig, and the slithy toves
        Did gyre and gimble in the wabe:
        All mimsy were the borogoves,
        And the mome raths outgrabe.”

        (hopefully spell-correcter won’t mess with Reverend Dodgson’s hymn too badly)

        *[every few years, I have to go look up again the actual lyrics to “Brown Sugar” and “Sympathy for the Devil”, no matter the number of times I’ve heard those songs over the last 45 years or so.]

        IMO
        K

        • But with that logic you can basically re-write the entire poem or book. And with that, it is now open to my interpretation or your interpretation of what Forrest wrote in the book or, more importantly, what he specifically wrote in the poem. It didn’t take him 15 years to write that poem for no reason. When he said not to mess with his poem, I believe he meant exactly that. Don’t change it to read or say something that now makes your solution ‘perfect.’. Don’t change anything to try to mold it or force it into your solve.
          “If you’ve been wise….” could now be read “If you’ve been y’s……”. Someone could say, “That’s it! I’m looking for a place whose name contains a couple letter y’s.”. That makes the poem way too subjective. What did Forrest say or mean? We can’t change it to what we KNOW he meant or what we hope he meant.
          IMO.
          Good luck all.

    • Donna…No Where But? No ware but… No where, but. No, but where? He is talking about wide parameters in the latest MW. You may be correct in your observation. But it is elsewhere in the poem? Not ware, but another word or phrase.

    • Hi Amanda – welcome to the chase.

      That date is unknown.

      Although some have speculated that he hid it in 2010….maybe 2009.

      *shrugs*

      Why do you think answering this question would matter?

    • Amanda – based upon comments that f and others have made, f likely hid the chest in June or early July 2010.

    • Amanda, this date according to Forrest was the (summer) time of the year turned 80, IMO or you could just type in the search bar on any page “Winter Thoughts” and read what I factually (IMO) posted about it. Probably August 22, 2010. that was his 80th birthday.

      Tom Terrific

      • I know it was before Fall of 2011. I met my future 2nd husband in August 2011 and I mentioned my son had told me about a hidden treasure and I tried to tell him the gist of the poem. We divorced this past summer after five years of marriage, but are best friends divorced. We are planning a search this summer. He showed no interest until now. We traveled a lot but never for the Chase. Now I have had more time to look at it and talk about it a lot so we are BOTG this summer 🙂

        Lyzeebella

    • Amanda;

      The Thrill of the Chase, that includes the poem has a publishing date of January 2010. If he hid it in the summer before the book was published, that makes it Summer 2009. All of this info is available on Google. Half of the fun is finding this “stuff” out on your own. Welcome to the search, and HAVE FUN and TRY to STAY SAFE. JDA

  8. Just a thought from my search on Mon 4/17

    WWWH is the Santa Fe ski area. Snow making machines 17 Mile Marker. Take it in the canyon down, Not far but TFTW, say to the 13 MM, where one is to put in below the hoB is located. Vault toilets for poop (Brown).
    This is where Tesuque creek crosses Hyde Park Road. FF’s dog. Next one must cross the road where visibility is limited from the left. Vehicles and bicycles are difficult to hear or see, No place for the Meek. The end is ever drawing nigh, one must hike down to the creek and walk up stream, No paddle up your creek. Just Heavy and Water High, one must walk through the culvert in which Hyde Park Rd crosses. Now you are in a small basin about 10 – 15 feet wide and 30 – 45 feet long. As I have gone in there alone. There is a small cascade 2 foot water fall going over a log. When the foliage is out it is very difficult to see in. I have seen Fire Weed along its banks (Blaze ???). I searched the area but could not find the Blaze, I even used a Metal Detector because of the area. The 2 foot water fall over the log may be the key. There is a felt mesh covered with moss with space behind it. The water was running a little to fast to get a closer look. My muck boots did well in the cool water.
    So in the upcoming Feenboree travel up a few miles. I did remove a 40 pound piece of quartz just below the fall. This is my second time searching this spot. One in Sept the other in April. When I get back home I will post some photos. The key maybe Brave and in the Wood.
    So go at it.
    MM

    • Like Your solve , Seems very logical to me sorry all you got was quartz, I,ll be going to my solve in late May, Was wanting to in April but just couldn’t make it happen, finances and family illness. Happy Seeking to all JR

    • Cowlazars or mdc77. I watched your linked video last week and thought it was a good presentation. Very thought provoking. The process you show seems to be contrary to what has been interpreted from what FF has said about such processes of deciphering. But anything is possible in all things being possible. IMO. Let’s say ,just for the sake of using imagination purposes, that what you show/discovered(Try The Wheel) here in the poem by your method was intended within the poem. IMO of just for imagination sake , I would only think at best it would be a coded message of what is in the chest that is saved for the finder of the chest. Perhaps it is a Wheel of some such in the chest, try it and she will be pleased. So, imo, if anything it is not a clue to solve the poem but a hint of what may be the special thing in the chest. Just a guess on my part. I really do think the video was interesting.

  9. Have any of you tried to create your own treasure clues? It’s a valuable experiment to try to get into the mind of FF. Pick a random spot in the wilderness, then try to think of several consecutive abstract clues that someone 100 or 1,000 years from now could solve. It’s not as simple as it seems… no winder it took Forrest many years to complete.

    • Yes Michael, I did for kids finding easter treasures. I used lines very similar to Fenn’s. It was a lot of fun. I thought the clues were pretty easy but when I watched others trying to follow them it they were hard to them. Based on that experience I think this poem is going to take a little more imagination and guess work than Fenn thinks.

  10. I suggest you try & find out which words or phrases in the poem are the 9 clues you need to figure before trying to marry them to a map.

    • Throwing this out here again to see if anyone else is on the same page as me.

      9 clues in the poem.

      1 – Begin it WWWH
      2 – And take it in the canyon down
      3 – Put in below the home of Brown
      4 – From there it’s no place for the meek
      5 – The end is ever drawing nigh
      6 – There’ll be no paddle up your creek
      7 – Just heavy loads
      8 – and water high
      9 – the blaze

      Some say the rest is filler but I think there are hints sprinkled about in the other stanzas but the 9 major unknowns that are directions are listed above.

      Who else thinks like this?

        • I’ve posted my thoughts on another “The Nine Clues,” Jake. Mine began with, “As I have gone alone in there.” I had connected “Just heavy loads and water high” as one clue.

          • I’m going to say what I believe 100%.
            All the 9 clues are at or between “Begin” & “Blaze” in the poem.

            I will eat my hat if they are not.
            As Zap stated I have eaten my hat & of course he is wrong because no one has fond the treasure & proved me wrong.

            I think everything else are hints.

            1. – How could F not be deceitful if you don’t begin it where he says?
            2. – He has stated he was not deceptive with the poem.
            3. – He stated at least 3 times that the poem is straight forward.

            I’m getting hungry again.
            Can anyone make me eat that smelly stinky hat?

          • Jake, you may be 100% correct with your solve. I don’t believe it would be deceitful if it began with “As I have gone alone in there,” rather than, “Begin it where…”. With my thoughts, the first line in the stanza may give one a general area. Would you consider this a hint or a clue?

          • I already stated that everything in the 1st stanza is not a clue no matter what you see as a location or general area in there.

          • Not only will I eat my hat Blex, I will season it with more body waste if you find the treasure 1st.

          • I agree pdenver, “and” connects the clue. And when you open a book where does it begin, the preface or the first chapter? But don’t mind me, I’m a “boots on the ground” searcher where things like clues and punctuation are worked out on sight.

          • Hi Jake:

            “I already stated that everything in the 1st stanza is not a clue no matter what you see as a location or general area in there.”

            Care to wager another delicious hat on that?

          • Hi Jake –

            “I already stated that everything in the 1st stanza is not a clue no matter what you see as a location or general area in there.”

            I hope you run the “hat” through a grinder before you attempt to eat it. If not you will choke. That’s sage advice.

          • “Find the treasure & prove me wrong.
            Ha!”

            Yes sir, Jake. I plan on doing just that and I won’t require you to consume the hat. Maybe seek help but not eat a hat. Stay tuned.

          • Does everyone have the same definition of clue versus hint? I don’t have a quote at the ready, but didn’t Forrest say something along the lines that a clue will move you closer to the chest while a hint will help you decipher the clues in the poem?

            That’s what I’ve been using to distinguish between / categorize them for my own solve.

            Just because it’s in the poem, and it’s important, doesn’t mean it’s one of Fenn’s 9 clues. I think the first stanza is very important, but I think it’s a big hint pointing to the answer to one of the later clues.

        • I think that everything you listed are valid clues, Jake. My problem is that I keep coming up with more clues than nine in the poem and it’s hard to pick between which ones are “the nine clues”. Maybe Forrest included some “subtle hints” in the poem that are not necessarily “clues”?

        • Jake, with the confidence I believe I see in your solve, and how the rest of us may be interpreting the poem incorrectly, when will you be heading out?

          • It’s not so much the confidence in my solve as to the structure to the poem.
            I am sure of what lines & words in the poem are clues but not sure of the area to marry them to a map.

            My date to search has been pushed back to August 18th & our areas are still the same. The Gallatin holds the key.

          • I’ve enjoyed watching a few of your videos. Beautiful area. With the current weather patterns, your date may work out to your benefit.

          • Jake, I have to say that at times you are soooo close to enlightenment, but clearly don’t realize it. File this away for revisit if the chest is found in the next couple years.

      • I am not on the same page. My clues are throughout all but the 1st and 5th stanzas…and I believe those two stanzas have importance even though they don’t have clues. My fave is the 6th stanza! I can count 9 clues but I don’t feel like the distinction is clear. This might be supported by Forrest’s vague response in an interview that there are 3 or 4 clues in the 2nd stanza.

        • Forrest DID NOT say that there are 3 or 4 clues in the 2nd stanza – he said that it SOUNDS LIKE 3 or 4 clues in the second stanza – NOT that there are 3 or 4 clues in the second stanza. – a BIG difference. Read what he says, not what you hope he says. JDA

          • Yes, true . That is what he had said. But why say anything to that effect at all? Saying such automatically draws attention to it rather than away . Not saying what he said would not draw attention but he said what he said knowing that attention would be given. Using the words ” sounds like” gives space between perception of fact and fiction. Therefore, he would not be beholden to any admonishment of saying something as a fact. IMO.

          • Al –
            Since we are discussing it, maybe he accomplished what he was trying to do. JDA

          • JDA. Yes, I think the same reasoning and that is what I meant. I perceive that every word and Q&A he gives is intent by him to offer assistance in thinking. Assisting by methods of ambiguity and direct. To help with direction and to help in avoiding misdirection-never to mislead. In the recent MW he directly said it is not in the desert. He also gave advice on hip waders and that rocks can be slippery in moving water. Very helpful with the 9 clues though perhaps missed through this type of ambiguity as an example. IMO , the moving water and slippery rocks is saying , to me, that we don’t need to go into or cross rivers and fast moving streams. Also, being as this was a searchers be safe Q&A, that perhaps the chest is not IN water. Direct about the desert and some ambiguity about water. IMO. He is always helping and assisting in his words. We all have different minds to think with,lol, but all brains look the same haha. IMO.

          • Hi JDA – Let’s back the truck up for a moment.

            “Forrest DID NOT say that there are 3 or 4 clues in the 2nd stanza – he said that it SOUNDS LIKE 3 or 4 clues in the second stanza – NOT that there are 3 or 4 clues in the second stanza. – a BIG difference. Read what he says, not what you hope he says.”

            Forrest has told us multiple times to apply logic to the poem and he has also said there aren’t any red herrings and no tomfoolery. If you believe Forrest and you are a logical person then you would come to the conclusion that there in fact are 3 or 4 clues in the second stanza. If you can’t find 3 or 4 clues in that stanza don’t try to force things to fit your solve.

            Let’s apply some more logic JDA. When Forrest answered the questions from the middle school students, in a round about way shot down waterfalls and there are some that are grasping and hoping that he didn’t eliminate waterfalls when he did just that. Here’s another logical point. Yesterday on Jenny’s MW site, f told searchers that if they are looking in the desert to get a new solve. He didn’t specifically say deserts are ruled out but if one uses logic and believes Forrest they have to admit that deserts are not a part of the solution. I know there are searchers that are trying to find loopholes to keep waterfalls and deserts in their solutions. They obviously can’t recognize logic or refuse to do so.

            My advice to you is to believe what Forrest tells us and quit looking for loopholes to keep your solution alive. It’s okay to throw a bad solution away and start over. Of course you may not want to and that is totally up to you.

          • HMA;

            Have you got only one string on your violin? Same old stuff. I was commenting on another’s post – attempting to correct his his perception.

            You can count as many clues in stanza #2 as you care to count. That is up to you.

            I am NOT looking for any loopholes HMA. I have my solve, and am VERY happy with it. All I ever hear from you is you trying to get me to drop my solve. How SAD!!! JDA

          • Hi JDA –

            “Have you got only one string on your violin? Same old stuff. I was commenting on another’s post – attempting to correct his his perception.”

            I have 9 strings on my violin. If you were attempting to correct someone else’s perception of a statement made by Forrest with what you stated earlier then it appears that you don’t believe Forrest or want to see f’s statement as logical.

            I’m not hear to sink you solution. You’ve made your choices and when your solution sinks like the Titanic and the lifeboats are already taken, you only have yourself to point the finger at.

            As I have said before, enjoy your next trip to WY. Make sure to be safe JDA.

        • Those 9 complete unknowns are the key to the poem before you start matching them to an area on a map IMO.

          Ya, I know it is risky to discount any word, but he was & is a risk taker.
          That’s life & if you do not take risks, you will accomplish nothing in life.
          How can you learn anything if you don’t walk the edge?

          • Having personally pinpointed decidedly what I (we) think the 9 clues in the poem are; doesn’t mean any other words are discounted in any way. At least for me anyways I haven’t discounted any. All words have value, just some more so than others. There are clues, hints and story , all of which support the whole architecture of the poem. Using all words will compensate somewhat for potentially being wrong about some of them. Each word has a value of means to the location, even the words of story. Only the value in scale of a word(s) can be perceived at this point IMO.

          • I agree Alsetenash,
            Some say the other words are filler but I think they may be hints & helpful in helping you to get it.

            You said it perfectly: “All words have value, just some more so than others.”

  11. Greetings Searchers,

    It has been some time since I have frequented this site or even posted anything, but I was wondering if any of you all feel that the TC might in fact lie in the creek? I have gone in and out on this thought in various searches, but my latest tracks takes me to the water. Unfortunately, if it is in the water Springtime is not a great time to search as the waters begin to rise quickly and can be dangerous with flash floods now and then.

    For what it is worth, “I believe” the key word is “I” as in ” I am” that “I am”

    • Windsurfer;
      For close to six months, I diligently searched the “Waters” of my creek, to no avail. I was convinced that the first line of the poem, “As I have gone alone IN there” – indicated that the treasure was IN my creek. Logical, but wrong. I am now convinced that “IN there” now relates to somewhere else. True, Forrest has said, “It is wet”. But I now feel that the wetness is NOT the result of being in a creek, stream, or other fairly large water source. A small rivulet or little stream, perhaps, but NOT a big creek. Think of “Water high”, It may shed some new light on your quest. Just the mutterings of a dottering old fool. JDA

      • Thank you so much for your reply JDA. I am happy to join you in the “old fool” category. The creek may resolve potential legal issues, but other than that …. I have no clue.

        • Thank you JDA. I actually did some brief digging at a high water mark awhile back, but to no avail. It was more damp like a shaking dog than it was “wet”, but it had all the markings of scented in site. I suppose I could dig deeper, but that would require a shovel. I thought Mr. Fenn stated no special tools were necessary. Perhaps he meant spatial tools.

        • JDA, I just wanted you to know that I really appreciate your comments and shared thoughts on this site. I would be happy to join you in the “old fool” category. look forward to your further input.

          • Thank you for the kind words Longstep. We, Old Fools need to stick together. Have a GREAT day. JDA

      • I’ve been fishing for over 40 years and there’s no way it’s in a creek or river. Flash floods can move boulders, trees, cars, etc… a 10 inch box has zero chance and it doesn’t really matter where you put it. Nobody should be looking in a creek or river bed IMO. Even if a stream is not susceptible to flash flooding high channel gradients and gravity can move extremely large objects during high water periods.

    • pretty sure where i end up on my map based on the poems clues is the best possible place to end up.i need a team that actually capable of putting a team to search into motion

      • Steve, if you know where it ends do you need a team because you have ended at a wide search area?

  12. Some places just stick in my mind.
    The problem is that they may be more derived from hints outside of the poem than from the nine clues. IMO these two are points of interest:

    45°01’19.68″ N / 110°44’26.63″ W
    Rainbow Lake pic.twitter.com/iD9wrwR0MO

    Minerva Terraces at Mammoth Hot Springs in Yellowstone National Park pic.twitter.com/l4MY1hJ1xo

    • Hi Michael. Kind of late for my comment, but the MHS stick for me, too. Have you hiked up to Narrow Gauge Terrace? It’s a little-known hike near the beginning of the Beaver Ponds trail; you go up to the left. Grizzlies around there, so you have to be careful, but it is really cool. About 15 min. hike up to a sort of secret terrace, can’t be seen from the road. Treasure or not, it’s something I try to do every time I go up to YS. It’s magical!

  13. I have a starting spot,I have middle spots related to poem,And I have and end spot,9 clues are places,using google maps and the poem i have made a map,u wont believe where i end up

  14. In ‘searching’ of areas within the particular States, it has truly presented such wonders! No surprise, however, if Indulgence is eventually ‘found’ in New Mexico or….within.

    Thrilled,

    SL

  15. All,
    IMO, my latest count of hints…
    Over 2 dozen hints in TTOTC, not counting the “Gold and More” chapter.
    About a dozen hints in the “Gold and More” chapter, not counting the poem.
    And about a dozen more hints in the poem, not counting the 9 clues.
    It definitely feels like a large jigsaw puzzle…
    Geoff
    “Have flashlight, will travel”

    • I see things that I think might be hints too yet at the same time I have a hard time being sure that they are. How do you guys go about pinpointing a hint without finding the treasure for confirmation that it was indeed a hint? Or do the hints make the clue so solid for you that you are sure the hint is valid?

      • Aaron – I think it is different for everyone. What I found for hints in the book lead me to what I believe is the first clue. With that, I was able to identify my second clue on a map. Once I had those, I discovered my ‘a word that is key — which was a year before f said anything about it. Between the hints and the ‘a word that is key’, my solution for the first clue was nailed down for me.

        The hints I have found in the book have continued to align with my ‘a word that is key’ as related to what the meaning of each successive clue is.

        I continue to try and figure out the last several clues, but I find that my best approach to doing so is being on site (which is tough when I can only get there once a year and the kids start complaining that they want to leave after being there for 45 minutes); I believe the last three clues are what pinpoints the exact spot where the treasure sits, and for my solution, you can’t find them on a map, nor does Google Earth show the area in enough detail to examine the area like I need to see it to figure out those clues.

        And those are my delusions… 🙂

        • Thanks for the replies JCM and Blex. Great points! I am bringing kids out there in July to give it a shot. I have a feeling mine are a little older so hopefully they can be of some help.

        • All IMO ….. I had a general idea where I wanted to search. While reading a SB something caught my eye as a definite hint, so I checked my precise starting point I was contemplating, and what I thought was a hint was there and when followed it lead to my already considered search area. Could be beginners luck, of course, but as I am reading the SB’s, without any thought given to them., hints just jump off of the page. I don’t view the hints garnered through ff’s writings, photos, drawings, etc as leading towards the treasure, but more as confidence building hints that I am on the right track. I usually come across more than several in each post … seeing the hints in black and white, that are associated with my solve, is so encouraging. I would be interested if anyone else is having this experience. If more than one searcher is having same experience, and we have different search areas, then the hints obviously mean nothing. But so far ff’s posts are eagerly awaited, just to see if there are any connections. Safe searching to all !

          Lyzeebella 🙂

          • Hi Lyzee,
            yep…I see things in some of the stories that I consider hints to my area. Sometimes it is only one word. But who knows…maybe I am “over” using my imagination…Good Luck

          • Yes, Rick, sometimes one word and sometimes a phrase, and then in pics or sketches. No stretch of the imagination needed. God luck to you also.

            Lyzeebella

      • Hi Aaron! For me, it’s your latter statement that I lean towards most. My recommendation is to focus on figuring out the clues first, and to keep an eye out for hints at your leisure.

        • Hi Aaron. For me, IMHO, TTOTC hold hints to help solve the clues. F said he wouldn’t put any more clues out there, not hints so…the SB’S MIGHT have subtle hints to help solve the clues. But, the hints don’t directly lead you to a location, like SB# 107… $5 bill…is Lincoln’s head a hint to a log cabin (example)? I don’t think so. I feel F is DONE giving out clues/hints in the SB’s. The poem and SB’s are like a shapeless dress…it fits all different places and scenarios so NO ONE can insist they have the correct/complete solve til the chest is in hand.
          Even everyone’s opinion is like a belly button, everyone has one and they are all useless til you grab the prize!

  16. After a lot of thinking and contemplation I have arrived at a conclusion I am very surprised that I have come to accept regarding the Chase. After reading many interesting and intriguing posts, a lot of deep meditation, and a lot of research I now think the treasure is in New Mexi…..OWWWWW! Geez!!! OWWW that hurt man!!!

    Billy Barty: “If you say that I’ll kick you even harder Sparrow. The darn thing is in Wyoming. Why do you keep doubting my word!!??”

    Man, you didn’t have to kick me in the shin Billy. OK, OK, I’ll stick with Wyoming.

    Billy Barty: “You’re a fine man Sparrow. Don’t get side-tracked. Is your shin OK? You need some Merthiolate?”

  17. IMO it is definitely in one state, but you have to travel through another state to get there, no not one of our 4 States of Confusion, no like Zen and Karma, it’s the state of Consciousness of ff’s imagination, and spirit, we all tend to see this hunt from our own frame of reference (spiritually) the key may well be to see it from his point of view.

    Imagine growing up like he did and being a collector of things, wearing all the hats in life, Forrest has had so many experiences in life and what has he learned that he is not revealing to us? Perhaps he is more spiritual than he lets on? In the SB post for Graciella (Florencia) at Easter time may be a peep into his sacerdotal feelings about life, religion and his place in the universe.

    Can TT get an AMEN!

  18. It would be naive of me to assume that the Chase description clue/clues primarily exist within ‘4’ States.

    It’s a big world, (and sky) out there, and The Flyer has experienced a large portion of.

    A “good map” could include a celestial element.

    • SL—
      Very true—-and those “celestial” elements will very easily be there a thousand years from now.

    • The Flyer and…..circles. Might the end of his rainbow be the ‘full circle’ rainbow that you can see when flying; yet can not see if you’re on the ground?

  19. Separating the wheat from the chaff is what I find difficult. Only 6 weeks into the my Chase and haven’t quite jumped into the 9 sentences/9 clues camp…yet. So 9 clues in 24 lines means some is fluff or filler, right?

    • Welcome to the chase Miter.

      For me, deciding that the nine sentences = 9 clues was rather simple. I started out being ion the “other” camp, but soon decided that the “other” way left stanzas #1. 5 and 6 untouched, or unused, and this was not logical to me. There HAD to be more to these three (out of 6) stanzas than just “Fluff”. As it has turned out for me, there is more “meat” in stanza’s #5 and 5 than there is in the rest of the stanzas.

      For me, stanza #1 – “IN there” is critical when I get to the end of the solve. Stanza’s #5 and #6 tell me EXACTLY where the TC is hidden. Study these two stanza’s VERY carefully. Look up the meaning of every single word. You will be surprised at what these words hold. Just my humble opinion – If you go out – TRY to STAY SAFE – JDA

    • Miter, I suggest you don’t count clues. FF has indicated that
      the quantity of clues is not important, but that it is risky to
      discount any of the words in the poem. All my opinion.

      Good luck. I suggest you focus on the poem, rather than on
      any forums about this treasure hunt. Most postings are not
      at all helpful (also my opinion). It’s become a big social
      thing, rather than a serious treasure hunt — to many folks.
      Again, IMO.

      • I agree – focus on the Poem. The cheat sheet is also helpful, but again, focus on the poem.

    • Miter – it is your perspective as a new searcher that I find interesting. When just starting out, stanzas 2, 3, and 4 (and sometimes 6) seem to be what new searchers focus on as being the nine clues. Before long, some number of searchers start to drift and consider the other stanzas.

      And then f says:

      Q. Even today, after more than six years of people searching, and after all the news coverage, articles, and stories written about your secreted treasure, some people are just learning about your Thrill of the Chase treasure hunt and getting involved. It continues to inspire. Do you have any advice for these new people? How should they begin the search six years after so many others? Do you feel they are at any disadvantage?
      A. No, fresh eyes and new thinking might provoke a winning idea. I would advise new searchers to look for the clues in my poem and try to marry them to a place on a map. It seems like the longer one thinks about the search the more they complicate the problem.

      There must be some simple thing that people are not connecting which can be caught early when just starting the search – if youthink about the poem and the clues enough – but the more time a person spends working on this, the more they complicate it.

      What is most interesting is f’s stating that they complicate ‘the problem’. What is that problem that needs to be solved, but that people complicate the more they think about it?

      If I could give new searchers any advice, based upon what f has said about how to find the chest, don’t spend your time and thoughts trying to determine what the nine clues in the poem might be as you start into this challenge, just focus on identifying what the first clue is (most newbies pursue BIWWWH, so go with that to begin with). Once you have that, then start looking at the area around it on a map and see what is there and what could be considered as the solution to other clues.

      Good luck!!!

      • JCM,
        fenn~ “It seems like the longer one thinks about the search the more they complicate the problem.”

        As you asked~What is the problem? I think too many simply take a map as simple answers to the clues. Find point one and go to point two and so one. But we still have searcher indicating clues, being on site and still not knowing exactly what the clues are…
        Maybe “the problem” might be, solving how the clues work together and not so much being lead by a leash from point to point. “9 clues” are what we were told about… So do we marry the clues to become joined answering the problem of finding a 10″sq piece of land?

        • JCM, really excellent post and going back to the quote and the “problem”.

          Seeker…I’m thinking the ones who identified the first two clues didn’t solve the problem. The problem may come higher up in the poem before the first clue.

          • That could be very true… Even with the clue[s] deciphered, there might be something needed ~to understand? ~to work with? -both? Maybe that “important possibility” for winning the prize.

            imo, there is a lot in the first stanza that has been easily dismissed. Some of which are:
            Treasures vs. trove.
            Past tense.
            “I have” vs I’ve”
            Hint of riches…
            New and Old…
            Even, “keep secret”

            I hardly doubt this is an intro. That doesn’t make sense with the book doing just that. I doubt new and old has much to do with old things in the chest that are new to the finder. Could ‘riches’ refer to the trove? I guess it could, but that doesn’t seem likely as to hinting something… not in my mind anyways.

            Then again, ‘a hint’ of something can mean as small amount… scant come to mind again.
            lol, but that can’t be the reason, right? fenn never said we ‘have to use’ a dictionary, or familiarize ourselves with meanings of words; like others have stated… and were supposedly within 50′ of the chest.

            Another thought to solving “the problem”… might be calculating is some manner.
            Or maybe, just the opposite in your thought… the information toward the end of the poem is needed more than most think or describe as fillers and ending the poem.

            Something is definitely being overlooked or read wrong. imo of course.

            “…The treasure is there for the person who can find it and I think that person will be positive in their attitude and ***deliberate in their actions.*** No one has any secret information that will take them to the hiding place. It’s in the poem for all to see.f”
            Does “action” mean hiking out clues?

            We’re told to “Plan” to “Observe” to use “Imagination”… I think, I’m gonna add “Action” to my thoughts as well.

          • Seeker – I couldn’t agree more on the first stanza, especially “riches.” To me, the first stanza is to help identify the general location where to look for your WWWH

          • The ‘problem’ could be a recipe that one needs to find in the first stanza…and I’m not talking about food.

        • Hi Seeker – You were up early this morning. Did the dogs need to go out and toilet early? Or was the monster just hungry for an early morning snack of some non-food item? 🙂

          I don’t want to post 50 quotes, you know them all anyway, but I certainly think there is an element to the point-by-point identification that must take place, because the clues are in consecutive order and they are contiguous. That word ‘contiguous’ is where your idea of them working together is of interest, perhaps coming together to describe the area as a whole, and what is there, a total picture of a tract of land; not just isolated points along the way, but something that time and the workings of mother nature has shaped (or continues to shape), thus having a knowledge of geography can be useful.

          Yes, many people seem to just go looking for one point and another point on a map, often trying to fit the area to the poem by forming some literal meaning of the vague words in the poem to describe what they find at that place. When people say they have to get ‘creative’ and ‘speculate’ about what something might mean, I know they are off the wagon and they will be having a nice vacation. But it is the ‘problem’ that needs to be dealt with; f has said that we ‘need to learn’ where the first clue is, and that the clues will get ‘progressively easier’ from there. But learning and figuring out where the first clue is located is more than half the battle.

          I think the map comes into play once you have learned and identified the first clue… and once you have it, you can look at the map to marry the clues to places, but each clue will still need to be solved or figured out just like the first clue was. The advantage is that you will at least know the correct methodology, and/or maybe f will have built into the solution something additional (may ‘a word that is key’?) that will continue to assist in making it a little bit easier (but still difficult) to solve and figure out what each of the other clues mean, and what place they refer to on the map. And seeing the map of the correct area, maybe those places (or the geography of the area) might give you thoughts that help you to understand and unlock what the clues might mean.

          There is ‘the problem’, and the trick here is to understand what the process is to unlock and resolve that problem. Apparently it is simple and straightforward, but very easy to over-complicate and make difficult, especially the more time you spend working at it. Like you Seeker, I am not so interested in what the clues themselves are, what they mean, or where they are at – I am looking at the method and logic f has used to create this puzzle and lock it up. I have my ideas and am applying them to a search area, but the search is always hinging on what the unlocking process is and I am ready to change and adapt as things and understanding change.

          “Q. Are you happy with the way the search for your hidden treasure is going? Do you have any regrets; or more importantly, would you like to see anything different in the ways people are chasing the prize?
          A. I am more than pleased with the way it has been accepted. What I didn’t expect was the number of people who immediately started searching maps and using Google Earth to locate their special spots. Many have read my book multiple times looking for additional clues, or even hints that might assist them in the hunt.”

          … would you like to see anything different in the ways people are chasing the prize?
          What I didn’t expect was the number of people who immediately started searching maps and using Google Earth…

          Whatever the process is, ‘people who immediately started searching maps’ is probably not one of the things f intended to be a step in his process for finding the chest.

          • JCM,
            Monster to answer your question.lol

            I go along with many things you stated. But I’m gonna throw a curve -ball to a couple of thoughts. One being; word that is key. Is in only one word used once? Contiguous is not consecutive… As you know it means touching, neighboring etc. Which could be saying the clues separate will not solve the poem even if you know what the clues refer to. { not unlike Fun’s comment }

            Could that word be as simple as “and” or “I” { being the most used word in the poem. } or even a word such as “I’ve,” which is one word made from two words “I have”, also in the poem.
            Just thoughts…

            The other is the Q&A ~ ” What I didn’t expect was the number of people who immediately started searching maps and using Google Earth to locate their special spots.”

            Personally I would think looking at maps would be a common sense given thought { as you stated~ ‘one of the things f intended to be a step in his process for finding the chest }.. And it does seem that early on in the chase, many did just that..and.. it was relatively early on in the chase the first two clues were told of by searcher… But years later… searcher move away from the poem, gone into overload with book, throw darts, create tangent…and fenn {imo} comes back and tells us… go back to the poem, look a maps/GE, book as reference { all good tools}, marry clues to a map. etc. etc. those things we should have been doing from the get go, and it seems at that time many did.

            The funny thing about ‘marring’ It’s to join together… Maybe the X on the map is not so much about the “chest” { a 10″ sq piece of property } “AND” more about the clues.

            Stanza 2 – seems to have 3 or 4 clues, right?
            Well, I’ma gonna head back to one of my question from many moons ago… how many clues/hints/ pieces of information does it take to get an answer? If we attempt to break down the poem into 9 lines equate to 9 answers, is that “messing up” the poem?

            For me the most logical answer is the entire poem is a must to understand…{ my definition } ~ “9 sentences” has all the information to find the chest and that information contains 9 specific clues/answers that will “lead” to…
            lead is a fun word to look up as well. {no leash law required}

            *** people don’t understand the words they use everyday…

          • F may not have intended searchers to use the map…but DID suggest marrying clues to a map! I think that statement meant he was surprised people figured that out quickly.
            An adult mind, 21 or older, complicates things. You have to think like a 13 yr old! “Show the poem to a kid, they’ll get it.” F
            An adult would pooh-pooh that idea, thinking they are smart now as an adult, they’ll figure it out. But, as we get older, our imagination dwindles. We forget how to pretend.
            Imagination = youth
            Knowlege = adults
            It’s going to take a young at heart person to figure out the poem written by a young at heart poet!
            That’s all I have to say ‘but that…imo.
            Play safe
            ¥Peace ¥

  20. I have been watching this game like forrest was watching golf in sb180 .
    The hiccups I have seen is the over and over again notion of WWWH .
    Here is a fresh view of Begin at where warm waters halt
    “Begin at where” is posing a question of where to begin.
    “Halt” means to pause , wait or stop.
    And “warm waters” is the subject.
    So in my opinion , “warm waters” is the first clue.

    The next line starting with “take it” is another way to say to start again.
    I have heard many people give driving directions in many ways and that is how I came to these conclusions.
    How it applies is anyone’s guess.

  21. “As I have gone alone in there” I believe means FF’s own memory.

    “Hint of riches” implies that the vignettes in TTOTC may help to unravel the poem’s clues.

    • That is line with one of my approaches to the poem Rick. I have several at this point and trying to decide which one makes the most sense.

  22. Fenn said he won the bracelet in a game of pool, billiards? Or a game of pool being water polo or a swimming race? Or a game of pull….sled dogs, tug of war, arm wrestling? Fenn won the bracelet……but what did he wager against the bracelet?

  23. For what its worth (zip probably) I often feel that “riches’ in some way refers to the name Richard or Ricardo or Heinrich.

  24. Dal –

    I am guessing that Zaphod is out looking at his NFBTFTW. We didn’t heare from him when HMA got zapped.

    If Zap informs you or FFenn that he has found the TC will you announce that? Is there anything in terms of protocol that would keep you from doing so?

    I’m thinking there is a decent chance that Zap is on the right trail.

    Thanks
    Lugnutz

      • Wasn’t Zaphod’s solve heavily dependent on some sort of hidden code embedded in the poem that involved numerical values? Or am I thinking of someone else?

        • Hi Blex –

          You are recalling the steganography technique in his solve. Like ken I am a skeptic of anything along those lines. What Zap says is that he sees something in plain sight that I am not seeing. I am allowing that that is possible. It’s not my thing but who knows.

          The part that do have an interest in is the idea that the first letters in the words of the poem refer to places. Zap thinks Fenn is hinting at the importance of BTFTW. So I have a solve in Montana that uses NFBTFTW. I could be looking in the same area of MT as Zap and HMA.

          My search partner Wingnutz lives in Sandpoint. We will begin our search along the Clark Fork and end up in Taos. As has been pointed out since the beginning of the chase the names of the towns and such descending with the CF seem to mirror the woods in the poem. CD NFBTFTW. We won’t be up there till next weekend and it’s possible Zap is there. I do not know of course.

          Lugnutz

          • Thanks for sharing, Lugnutz. I’m definitely interested in learning more details of your solve once you get to the point where you’re willing to share.

            Working your way from Clark Fork all the way down to Taos sounds like quite the epic journey. How long do you plan to be out on your trip with Wingnutz? Is this going to be an all-Spring & Summer adventure? If so, that sounds like a blast and I hope it’s a fun time!

            If I can make one suggestion to help you out: consider reversing your itinerary by starting in Taos next weekend and working your way up North. The Rockies are getting hit with a fresh batch of snow right now and it looks like they are going to get slammed with a much bigger system late next week. However, NM looks dry right now and should only get a bit of rain next week when you’re ready to get started. Like I said, just a suggestion, but no matter what stay safe and have fun!

          • Oh my it gave you the wrong impression Blex.

            I have many solves. We will explore solves in each of the 4 states.

            I haven’t decided which ones yet.

            Definitely hitting Clark Fork first.

            Lugnutz

          • Well if you do run into Zaphod up in the Clark Fork area, and you both happen to find the treasure chest at the exact same time, please do your best not to engage in a desperate fight to the death on a conveyor belt slowly moving towards a rock-crushing machine or giant circular saw blade or lava lake or the like. Be civil and courteous! 😉

          • I started at Warm Springs Montana and “talked ” my way from there along the Clark Fork, I found that the poem was working both ways from there, to a point, but stopped before the end and I wasn’t in the right elevation.

          • Hi Thomas –

            Same thing here.
            I worked down the Clark Fork and on to Fort Fizzle. 2500ft.

            Lugnutz

  25. i have a clue i think where warm waters halt could possibly be somewhere in pathfinders refuge

  26. Friends and Fellow Serachers –

    I was just reading the below from Sep 2013. It’s amazing how little has changed in the intervening years on the blog. And I love this quote from Forrest:

    I probably have written my last blog Dal. Will you reply for me? f

    http://dalneitzel.com/2013/09/04/dal-whines/

    Lugnutz

  27. As to TTOTC I found it full of hints , The more I read it over and over , you can make hints out of anything. I got 10-20 hints out of one image alone. Just my Sunny Point of thought. Got to take my little dog for a walk . Enjoy the Day J

  28. This blog has been a little quiet lately except for when Mr f speaks then the blog comes alive. Kind of like a commercial from long ago…
    When EF Hutton speaks everybody listens… :mrgreen:

    I know we have discussed some of this before but let`s talk about it again.

    Put in below the hoB.

    How far below do you folks think the “put in” is from the actual “home” of…?

    • RickinFlorids;

      There is an entire thread dedicated to the “Home of Brown”

      You might look there for past discussions, rather than here.

      Just a suggestion. JDA

      • Thanks JDA,

        however…I have been around these boards for a long time. I am aware of the hoB section. This section is about nine clues and if hoB is one of the nine then what is wrong with asking the question here?
        Like I said…the blog has been a little quiet so I am just trying to spark some discussions.

        • Rick;

          No offense meant.

          If it is posted under its proper thread – home of Brown, it is easier to search, rather than looking for it among all of other possible topics under “nine clues”.

          Dal or Goofy established the threads, in an attempt to keep subject matter separated.

          Again no offense – Just my opinion. – See, you did generate some discussion. JDA

    • Rickinflorida;

      why get hung up on how far below Hob?

      the distance is not important, just keep going until you get to no place for the meek, then make the next move.

      above is just my opinion.

      • Finding the next clue, whether it is in fact no place for the meek or something else, might not be that easy IMO. It sounds like this is around the area that people that have the first few clues figured out get tripped up.

  29. IMO, I think you go from WWWH, down the canyon,
    to where it is to far to walk, then cross the canyon to
    the HOB, then hike up to where it is no place for the
    meek, and then farther to a point that you can see the
    blaze. Then you look down to where the hidey place is,
    and go find it.

    • Nine sentences = Nine clues
      According to the poem as printed … there are nine sentences = nine clues … am I being too simplistic … or jumping to con(clue)sions. Reference would be as to how poem is printed on home page of this blog and on MW with reference to sentence punctuation … Has this been discussed previously? I don’t remember seeing it mentioned.

      Lyzeebella

      • I am 100% for you Lyzee. Mine sentences = nine clues. Others disagree, but it sure works for me. Stick with it! JDA

        • Thank you … not trying to make anyone see it as I see it .. just mentioning for others benefit that may be having a problem with deciding on the nine clues. as being words or short phrases. I try to take the poem straight forward and not over complicate and get stalled on one aspect of the solve. Keep moving forward —–>>>>>

          JMO
          Lyzeebella

      • I see that seeker mentions nine sentences = nine clues above in a post/comment, and probably other instances I missed or don’t recall . I have to agree with this thought … take the poem straight forward, as written, don’t mess with it. don’t complicate it. (all paraphrased) Just my thoughts and my opinion.

        Lyzeebella

  30. According to the author there’s nine clues but FF has never confirmed 9 sentences = 9 clues. IMO 9 sentences does not = 9 clues.

    • True, we are all entitled to our own opinion. I know he has not mentioned the 9=9. If this was the case, and 9=9, he would be giving away part of the fun of solving. I just don’t think there will ever be a definitive nine words that will be agreed upon by majority of searchers as being the nine clues, unless nine word clues are revealed when actually solved … IMHO It is not a coincidence that there are nine sentences and the author states there are nine clues ….. again, my opinion, each sentence is a clue in itself.

      Just My Opinion

      Lyzeebella

      • Hi Lyzee — there is no doubt that the simplest distribution of clues is one per sentence. But did Fenn do this? If he did, it was deliberate, because the odds of it working out to precisely one clue per sentence by random chance is virtually zero. Now given that, in other statements Forrest at least gives the impression that he wasn’t “counting clues” as he crafted the poem, and I believe he has even said the number of clues changed as he modified the poem over the years. Perhaps JCM or Seeker can provide the relevant quote(s).

        Personally, I don’t see Forrest as being that regimented. Why have a poem at all if your intent is to just trot out one clue per sentence? The poem vehicle is supposed to free you from such precision.

        Finally, if you weren’t aware of the following exchange, it’s something you need to factor into your thinking. This is from

        http://lummifilm.com/blog/CBC2013.mp3

        about 4 minutes 20 seconds into the interview. The host asked: “Some of the clues maybe are things that people locally would know. You say begin it where warm waters halt and take it in the canyon down, not far, but too far to walk. Put in below the home of Brown. That seems like a couple of clues to me.” Fenn replied: “That sounds like three or four to me.” There are only two sentences in that stanza, so either 1 clue per sentence is out the window, or Forrest was being deliberately misleading. At other times Forrest has expressed the sentiment that he has no desire to deceive searchers, so I have never been in the 1 sentence = 1 clue camp.

        • I’m with you zap – not in the “9 sentences = 9 clues” camp…..because I think there are eleven clues.

          It would be hard sell for me to move from eleven.

          ;o)

          Hints – help with figuring out a clue.
          Clues – will lead you to the TC

          Now can a hint lead you to the TC? I’m not sure.

          • I am seeing the hints relevant to the area that the TC is located and that they are confidence boosters if they consistently are related to or found in your search area.

            I was seeing the hints and one specific word n the poem as leading to a particular site, object, something … that would serve as a key and would unlock the puzzle of the poem. I will probably look at this as a side interest but not put as much time in it as I have previously.

        • Hi, I am aware of that statement from Mr Fenn. He is correct and not misleading when he states that it sounds like three or four to me. It sounds like three or four to me also, but that doesn’t mean that it is three or four individual clues.

          I view each sentence as stating the process you will follow to carry out that clue. Much like individual simple parts of the clue that when put together into a sentence gives you the larger compound clue that you are to follow.

          I really don’t see that statement by the author as being misleading … it has been his nature to be elusive, but not to mislead, in his answers to questions. He said “sounds like” three or four clues (correct it does sound like) … he did not say “there are” three or four clues. That is the difference that I see.
          Al in my opinion and many opinions differ.

          Lyzeebella

        • Lyzeebella — fair enough: “sounds like” provides some wiggle room for Forrest, but why say anything at all? If there truly was one clue per sentence, I’d be interested in Dal’s and/or Goofy’s opinions about whether the fact that Forrest made this utterance unsolicited would be misleading in their minds. Still, it won’t affect my thinking on the subject because I don’t think the clues are at all laid out in such an orderly fashion. Just as some sentences could have multiple clues, other clues might just as easily span multiple sentences or even appear more than once.

          • My opinion is each sentence is a clue in itself regardless of how much info and;or direction the sentence contains, Then all nine sentences (clues) work together to make the solve.

            Lyzeebella

        • It’s very generous of you to post that zap! In the spirit of fair play I will add that anyone in the “more than 9 clues” camp should visit the old Santa Fe trading website. It confirms there’s only 9 clues in the poem.

          • Hi J Smith….then fromyour post, it looks like I am in a “camp of one” then, huh?

            Good luck to you.

      • When f was asked if the second paragraph had a couple of clues in it, f replied it sounded like it had 3 or 4 clues!
        This was in his book store interview.
        So, I go by the meaning of the words, determining the clue ratio in the paragraphs, not by the sentence.
        F also said, (paraphrasd) that not all the nouns are important, but to not discount any…nouns, words…
        It seems there are at lease 3 or more (clues) in more than one paragraph, (#2), so this shoots the 9-9 out the window. But, for those who use that method, kudos to you. At this point in the game, all ideas could work, no one can say they are right and others are wrong!
        I say the above using my opionion.
        ¥Peace ¥

  31. Hello Searchers:

    Big Skip here…..As I was glad to see the comment section on the “Nine Clues” was still open but with no comments since May4, I thought I would cast my line out for some old information. Being seventy something with ADD, I don’t always remember all the comments regarding the clues. So, maybe with the help of JDA and some others, you might help me… Do I recall that FF said something to the fact, “all you need is the book and a good map” to be successful. Recognizing his second book included a specific map, was it discussed and concluded that the clues and map may get you to a starting point, but it will require BOTG to find the remaining clues and the TC, and that FF comments were a little overstated, possibly a little too enthusiastic to entice the searcher? Or did he just have the very best map?
    Still at the back of the pack
    Thanks again

  32. Big Skip,
    His poem is the map; it will lead you to “where” he hints of riches new and old. Some place “WWWH,” down in a Canyon with no comfort of warm waters. The key word is Canyon. Obviously there won’t be a camper’s store or concessions stand in this Canyon, as FF has said, “bring a sandwich and a flashlight.” (Sic)
    So, what map would direct you to this location?
    Dear Forrest,
    You tell us that we should find “where warm waters halt” before trying to solve any of the other clues. Imagining that we haven’t seen the rest of the poem, and all we have to go on is:
    a. “begin it where warm waters halt” and
    b. “somewhere in the mountains north of Santa Fe”
    Do you think that we can confidently determine the starting place for your treasure trail? ~ Steve
    No, if all you have to go on are those two clues you cannot proceed with confidence. Look at it this way. If you were making a cake and you left out a few ingredients, would you achieve your goal?

    • The “Dear Forest…” quote has been mentioned a few times as of late….
      I’ve been tossing this around( whether to throw it out there) for quite a while…and came to terms with it some time back. Taken as it stands…(without microscoping it to death) His answer to the literal side of the question pretty much squashes the theory that WWWH is the 1st clue.

      • I agree to a point, ken. But as you’ve mentioned, you can’t really take one statement at face value.

        We have the statement; if he told us where hoB is we could go right to the chest… with these two statements, there is also third one as well; If you know hoB, why would you concern yourself with wwh.

        Yet, the comment above seems to imply the need for all the clues [ingredients] to achieve the goal… So, IF wwwh is not the first clue or even the RM’s N.of SF…. whatever the first clues is, apparently is more important to understand than wwwh, canyon down, too far to walk…
        IF we can get to whatever hoB refers to. Does that mean we can skip stanza’s 2 first sentences if the first clue can bring us to hoB?

        Or again, maybe hoB is the first clue…? and all [ingredients] is put in below it?

        But what I see missing from this question seems to be the “place to start”… is that “place” a clue to fenn? or did he actually tell us somehow where to start… and wwwh is the first actual clue? without guessing from the many wwwh in the RM’s

        So, IF hoB is so important, seemingly more important than other things we consider as clue, that it can take us to the chest… is it not reasonable to think put in below home of Brown as the place to start ? and the to the clues ~ begin it where…
        I still say this keeps the clues in consecutive order, because the poem might be telling us just where everything is at… below hoB.
        Might then, “hint” of riches new and old refer to hoB? and give us the place to start?

        If we’re not going to “analyze” the possibilities, the WhatIF’s { or micro-scoping } as well as, the after the facts… what’s the point.
        Because, if hoB will lead us “Take us” it… then lets just concentrate on every hoB possibility and skip the first part of the poem…

        • Seeker…what I said had nothing to do with HOB or anything leading up to that point… after “WWWH”. Fenn’s answer was to the question at hand. “Do you think we can confidently determine the {starting place} for your treasure trail?”
          “North of Santa Fe” is not in the poem as we know it. So that leaves WWWH… he admits to being a clue…
          My point of bringing this up is that a lot of solves we have learned about have always pretty much skipped the whole first stanza and mysteriously come up with a WWWH from somewhere(TTOTC or who knows where) and started from there because the poem SAYS begin it….That just seems illogical to me.
          I knew I would rattle some cages…but, I think Fenn handed out a good hint here if you take the time to revisit the topics and threads that were being discussed heavily at the time. You make good counter points in regards to this…but if one just takes it literally…keeping in mind the first part leading up to the question. ” You tell us that we should find WWWH first before trying to solve…”
          My microscope thing was referring to this statement only.

          • Like I said, Ken. The question doesn’t give a “starting point.”

            We are only assuming that the place to start or need to know where to start is a “clue”

            While “clues” will lead to the chest… is the poem telling us where to actually start. or I’ll even take it one step further, Could it be possible that the book [separate from the poem] tells us where to start, and the clues in the poem take us – lead us to it?

            Something is out of position, and it all seems to be at the start…
            can not get closer than the first two clues, searcher indicated the first two clues and walked past all the other clues and the chest, need to start at the beginning, All the clues can be solved at home {imo- that is what that Q&A stated} And yet, fenn has never directly stated [ audio or in writing ] the first clue is wwwh.

            So, I see three possible options;
            The book tells of where we are to find the clues.{starting point}
            Or the first clues is not wwwh, but in stanza 1.
            Or home of Brown tells of all the clue put in below it. and in this case the first clue. { but for some reason we need to know this… is it because we won’t need to look for it later?}

            The question we’re taking about ‘Might Have’ inadvertently left out the “starting point,” so the answer would have been an automatic No. We need ALL the ingredients… which might imply “need to know where to start”

            Like I said, I’ve been trying to understand what the “important possibility” to winning the prize that fenn mentioned….
            so far it all seems to relate to the “very” beginning… and why searcher may have not known they were so close, to anything.

            It’s kinda funny fenn states; searcher ignores the first clue, don’t dwell on the first clue enough, tells us to go back to the first clue… these comments gives credence to your thought the first clue might be in stanza 1.
            I just chose to take it a step further and think of other possible WhatIF’s.

          • I agree with you that the starting place is the most important and the most elusive. After finding that a WWH, canyon, brown, ect. should hopefully fall into place. I am not totally convinced that it is what F refers to as a clue to find this first place and it is likely hints that when put together helps us determine or unlock the key. After finding this key, or starting point, then the clues begin and are in consecutive order. The hints to the starting point may be in the first stanza but if they are in fact hints in the poem then they do not necessarily have to be in the first stanza to qualify his statement that the clues need to be followed in consecutive order.

            To me the first and fifth stanza are almost mirror images.
            First lines: 1. have gone 5. must go
            second: 1. my treasures 5. my trove
            third: 1. my secret 5. the answers he already knows
            fourth: 1. new and old 5. tired and weak

            I’m not sure what if any significance this has. Maybe the hints to the starting point are there and the clues are all in between. The last stanza sort of stands out alone and could contain hints to the starting point as well.

          • Seeker… I won’t be arrogant and say that I KNOW the first clue is in the first stanza. I won’t be arrogant and say that all of the info needed is in the poem. But , I do believe these to be true. Fenn has said all of the info needed is in the poem…GE, good map, TTOTC are added as research materials. I believe that the stumbling block IS the beginning…

          • Ken;
            Where is either the beginning or the end of a circle? When you know this, you will know the answer to your (or the poem’s) riddle – or so I think. JDA

      • There are many searchers who think the 1st clue is in stanza one. IMO – it is only a hint to a clue, the first clue, WWWH.

        Good luck in the next step….but still a couple of choices, huh? Is a hint a clue or does it only point to a clue (“in which you still have to figure out”)? That is another line of thinking you can consider to use in analysis, before each move you make. Hints can only peek at a clue….but also misdirect – if you are not closely watching where you are going or the direction you take.

        Cheers and good luck. Stay safe in your travels.

        • Thanks Tim…your advice falls on deaf eyes…but thanks for being kind. You rock on man… and I can’t wait for you to get on with your quest. Smiles and huhs galore back at ya’.

        • Tim,
          I believe the first stanza is indeed a clue and it gives you twelve and not the eleven as you presently think.

      • Ken

        I not following you.
        How does it mean wwwh isn’t the first clue??

        Lugnutz

  33. For what it is worth Bigskip, lMO, no one is an expert on what you want to know, because if they were, they would have found the tc. This is true
    also of what I just said. I believe the finder of the tc will be someone that
    figures out the clues on their own. I believe that all the ideas on the blogs
    have not lead to success. Yes, it is fun reading all the ideas, but the finder will not be a follower. The finder will be a person with a mind set
    that is different from what is found on the blogs, or maybe someone on the blogs will, come up with a complete different solve that will lead them to that beautiful site. I figure I will get jumped on for this comment,
    but it is my honest thought on the subject, and only my opinion.

    • Sam…jump jump jump. Come on man, there are a slew of experts on all of the blogs…just ask…they’ll give you all the advice and tips you could ever ask for. Will it help? The only sound advice I have ever seen here is tidbits from Fenn. Of course, a few wise folk have repeated…RESEARCH the massive archives of discussions about the things he has shared. Listen to all of his interviews, read his books, and do not forget to learn about all of the failed searches. Dal’s blog is The Information Highway for everything Fenn related…you just need to do the leg work. I’ve got so much stuff crammed in my head now…it ain’t funny.

      • Don’t we all, huh?

        …and yet…we still trudge on…..LOL….looking to see if we can solve a predictable solvable mystery.

        Where does one stop and where does one begin anew?

        Good luck!

  34. Big Skip here:

    Debi, thanks for the reply. Your suggestion was, “his poem is the map”. I have always believed his poem “of clues” is simply the instructions on how to get to the TC as the clues apply to a map, the right map. What I am still pondering is did FF every indicate “all you need is the book and a good map”. That with the two, you can go with confidence to find the TC. Or, as many have preached, it’s only a starting place he provides using the right map, and it will take BOTG to find the remaining clues and the TC.
    Still way,way behind the group.
    Thanks

  35. Hey Skip,
    I get the feeling that your not way behind the group as the Chase is still on. Either scenario you posted eventually requires you to put your boots on to retrieve the chest. 🙂

    • I’ve been fishing over 40 years and I’ve never heard that. In fact, when you’re fishing a river with clear water fish spook more easily so you wade upstream-not down? Sounds like this guy was just trying to get a rise out of some tourist with a ‘treasure’ book.

    • Thanks, Dal, for reminding me of Donna’s “fishing slang” discovery back in September 2015. Are there other fishermen/fisherwomen that can confirm this “no place for the meek” flyfishing idiom?

      • I looked it up a couple years ago and it seems to me there was a website with a headline that read “no place for the meek” followed by a discussion of Kentucky Reels. But I don’t have the link. Might be a good question to ask on one of the Kentucky Reels forums.

        “any of youse guys ever hear of the sayin ‘no place for the meek'”?

        • Google Meek reels you’ll see they made fishing reels but this falls into the realm of ‘specialized knowledge’ (IMO).

    • Lol, thanks Dal! I loved that day!
      To a point, I was right. It was after that time, that F admitted the chest want on a man made trail!
      But, thinking about it…is a cold river a place to drag your family through, or would along side it be better?! There are warm waters, that turn cold when dropping in elevation, that don’t have man made trails beside them. Oh, sure, they’ve been fished, but not by enough people to create a trail.
      I still stick with what Mr. Whitey said about the cold river is “no place for the meek…the meek will go hungry!”

  36. If true, that would make this line another potential triple entendre. Like those important life questions that will not be answered until we meet our Maker, Forrest will be the only one that can truly reveal the complexity and layers of the poem…when he is good and ready.

  37. I guess I am going to have to get a fishing regulation map and overlay it with a geothermal and hydrology. I don’t have a GIS setup anymore but know of people that do. Any of you live in the Rockies tell me how the snow melt situation is at the moment? Might have to wait till July or August.

  38. “Look quickly down”
    So we’re supposed to look down from the blaze. Is that in a southerly direction? or down hill? down a path or trail? down the canyon? down in the ground? downstream? down from a cliff or tree or other higher place?
    Webster says ‘down’ is opposite of ‘up’ and: ‘toward or to the ground, floor, or bottom.’, and: ‘to or toward a point away from the speaker or the speaker’s point of reference.’ and: ‘something soft and fluffy like down.’
    Did you know it also means: : ‘an undulating usually treeless upland with sparse soil.’?
    The Chase certainly has it’s ups and downs. Ever felt down for the count, or down on your luck? I think I’ll go lie down.

    -Randawg.

  39. All,
    There has been a recent discussion of whether or not “Not far, but too far to walk” is a clue or not. After looking at the marks on my map, I conclude that NFBTFTW is indeed a clue, because it (after both research and searching) leads to a specific place on the map.
    Safe searching, everyone!
    Geoff
    “Have flashlight, will travel”

    • I will not have a flashlight cause it is not needed in the search.
      I do not plan on coming back when it’s dark & wouldn’t need one anyway.

      We do not need artificial light to see the blaze or chest.

      Feel free to bring one yourself though.

    • If you want to differentiate between a shadow and a human-made blaze you might bring a flashlight for use even during the day.

    • Once upon a time, during the search for a particular clue, the sun set quickly in the mountains, and even though I could see the North Star, the flashlight came in handy…
      Geoff
      “Have flashlight, will travel”

  40. Here is the exact Fenn quote from the Dickens video (from my copy that I made before Toby removed it. I do not have “The Lure” Q&A video so can’t confirm that):

    “There are nine clues in the poem, and the clues are in consecutive order. If you want to find the treasure chest – you have my book there – I’ll tell you how to do it. Read the book just normally … the poem and the rest of the book, and then go back and read the poem 6, 8, 10 times – study every line, every word. Then after you do that, read the book again, slowly, with the idea of looking for clues or hints, that are in the book that will help you follow the clues. [pause] You can find the chest with just the clues, but there are hints in the book that will help you with the clues. f” << Moby Dickens Video

    Now since he recently said: "no one has provided him the 9 clues in the correct order". << The Lure Q&A video

    To me this might mean that the clues follow each other in the poem, but it does not mean we are supposed to follow them in the order they appear in the poem, but in some other order! NOTE: My above transcript is exactly, to the T, what he said in the video.

    My opinion is that the nine sentence one clue per line theory still holds, and one of the clues (all of stanza one) is a riddle.

    Now before I say this, PLEASE know that I am not trying to open "that can of worms", but hear me out: Based on the ending of his Dickens comment, and his latest Lure Q&A comment, *could* this mean that TTOTC is required in order to put the clues into the correct order? This part of the quote in particular: "clues or hints, that are in the book that will help you follow the clues."

    Could he have just exposed that once we find and solve the 9 clues in the poem, we must first use TTOTC book in some manner to put the clues in the correct order? Again, YES, I know about the poem only debate, but PLEASE lets not get into that and derail this thread again. Lets try to discuss what else he could have meant? And note: I do not mean the book is used to solve the clues, I mean what if the book just takes those consecutive clues AND puts them in order? This goes back to an old theory someone else suggested (Mindy?) that the poem is sort of like an index into TTOTC. The poems clues simply provide the locations, but to find out how to follow them you need to look in the book?

    Let me give an example.

    Suppose it is one clue per line, so the clues/riddle are in consectuve order in the poem, but NOT in the order they are meant to be followed.

    The book is linear, for the most part (other than the untitled chapter and important literature) in the order that follows his life.

    Now notice:
    Only one chapter ends with an Asterisk (*) "IMPORTANT LITERATURE"
    There are 26 chapters that end in Knots (the little brown squares). Imagine those are knots that string together (CLEWS) each chapter. The postage stamps order them chronologically.
    Preface is the only place that doesnt have Knot or Asterisk!

    Every single chapter ends in a KNOT except one with the ASTERISK. The preface is the only case where neither ends it.

    So "what if" you are supposed to use the HINT connections in the book to organize, or put in the right order, the clues? In the most simple case, we would simply use the chronoligical or stamp order. The exception are the hints in "IMPORTANT LITERATURE" since they end with the asterisk. That might mean this chapter hints to the correct starting point based on where its hints fall within the poem.

  41. >>—- Below is the book order based on postage stamps. When the stamps were ambiguous or impossible to read, I put it where it most likely fits based on the calendar.

    p. 34 Saturday, 10 July 1893(?) – ME IN THE MIDDLE – (if year is right, correct day would be Monday)
    p. 118 Thursday, 7 November 1930 – FATHER ON THE BANCO – correct day: Friday (Fen was born on 8/22/30)
    p. 44 Monday, 3 June 1930s – IN LOVE WITH YELLOWSTONE – (Monday June 3rd in the 30s was 1935)
    p. 16 Monday, 16 September 1936 – First Grade – correct day: Wednesday
    p. 28 Thursday, 25 August 1937 – BESSIE AND ME – correct day: Wednesday
    p. 36 Wednesday, 15 April 1938 – SURVIVING MYSELF – correct day: Friday
    p. 54 Sunday, 23 May 1940s – THE LONG RIDE HOME – (1943 and 1948 were Sundays)
    p. 42 Friday, 18 October 19?? – Gypsy Magic – This was probably when he was 5 – 10 years old? 1935-1940?
    p. 46 Wednesday, 13 July ???? – Totem Cafe Caper – This was probably 11+ years old? So in the 1940’s?
    p. 120 Sunday, 23 July 1942 – FLY WATER – correct day: Thursday
    p. 22 Sunday, 2 September 1943 – JUMP-STARTING THE LEARNING CURVE – 7th grade – correct day: Thursday
    p. 58 Sunday, 20 September 1946 – LOOKING FOR LEWIS AND CLARK – correct day: Friday
    *p. 51 Friday, 5 June ???? – My Brother Being Skippy – Skippy Graduation Pic had to be 1946 or 1947. And June 5th 1946 was a Wednesday
    p. 64 Saturday, 8 August 1947 – BUFFALO COWBOYS – correct day: Friday
    p. 68 Sunday, 7 September 1949 – STOUT-HEARTED MEN – correct day: Wednesday
    p. 72 Saturday, 27 December ???? – MY WAR FOR ME – (wedding pic in same page says Dec 27, 1953, which was a Sunday)
    p. 108 Tuesday, 28 April 1974 – BLUE JEANS AND HUSH PUPPIES AGAIN – correct day: Sunday
    p. 114 Saturday, 10 October 1983 – TEA WITH OLGA – correct day: Monday
    p. 140 Sunday, 15 August 2005 – ODE TO PEGGY JEAN – correct day: Monday
    *p. 126 Friday, 5 June ???? GOLD AND MORE – This is here because its what he did last, hide the treasure. But keep in mind it is the SAME stamp as page 51

    NOTE: The ones with * are the only time 1 stamp was duplicated on page 51 and 126. Page 51 is the only stamp on an ODD page. Page 51 is the only postage stamp placed on the RIGHT side of the page, all other stamps are on the left!

    >>>—- Below is a quote, I am not sure which searcher made it, maybe Zap?
    “only have to be RIGHT 85 percent of the TIME” is it is a reference to 85 percent of time, and so 85 percent of what, time is counted by 2 different denominations, 24 and 60, the only one of those 2 related to coordinates is 60 (min/sec), as hours is not coordinates related. and so 85 percent of 60 is 51. so the clue is 51, and he says only have to be RIGHT and you said its the only postmark on the RIGHT. also notice that this is in fact on Page 51, and the drawing also represents 51.

  42. Also “IMPORTANT LITERATURE”, with the only *, is also one that has no postage stamps.

    There are 26 “KNOTS”, but only 20 of the chapters have postage stamps. The reason might just mean the postage stamps are signifant in the correct order? There are 27 total postage stamps, but only 20 of them are within the chapters, the others are inside the cover pictures.

    There are 27 named chapters total in the book, and 27 stamps! No chapter has more than one stamp.

    PS: I think you are being sarcastic, but “The Thrill of the Chase” would be the book that was not written?

    What I would do is look at the pictures inside the covers and try to place them in chapters where they would likely fit. It might help find hints.

    • (Second try.) Do you believe the stamps were Mr. Fenn’s or the designer’s idea to place them in the book, as well as, where to place them?

      • Knowing that the book has clues that lead to the TC I find it hard to believe that a designer or publisher with add anything like that to the book. The stamps seem to purposeful to not mean anything.

      • PDenver: my opinion is that the content of the stamps came from Fenn, and that they are helpful if you can figure them out.

  43. The following is my opinion.

    I do not think searchers are following the poem as it is meant to be followed. If step number one is the first clue why are some of us jumping to conclusions as to what the clues mean before identifying what the clues are on the poem, and then deciphering them? I think we get lost in our own logical thinking process and we tend to ignore the poem as if we know more than it. The poem is simpler than we think it is; we just complicate it.

    Let me give you an example:

    Let’s compare the poem to a cake recipe.
    If I not mistaken a written cake recipe first lists the ingredients one is going to need to bake the cake, and then the instructions follow.
    Well, that’s how I see the first stanza of the poem as the ingredients , and then the instructions follow. No one will be able to find the second clue unless you get the “ingredients ” first. The treasure cannot be found by guessing, or even by going in one thousand searches. If you want to find the treasure pay attention to the poem and do not abondon the sequence of it, or you’ll be lost and frustration will set in. Remember if you think the poem’s solution is difficult then you do not have the right solution. The preceding is my opinion. RC.

    • I like your analogy RC. I agree with your on the first stanza as well. I can see where there are many lines that will help lead you to a solution whether you label them a clue or not. It seems like it is to ambiguous to know what a clue is. A clue in one persons mine might not be in another persons yet still helpful for solving. For instance why can’t two lines that have no punctuation be one clue instead of two. Begin it where warm waters halt and take it in the canyon down, for example.

      In any case, in my mind the first stanza is very important and hold key to the word that is key. To discount it would be a mistake.

    • I think a cake recipe first gives you the instructions on what ingredients you will need. You will need so much of this, you need so much of that. Then you have the ingredients, then the instructions on how to make the cake. Bad analogy.

  44. Maybe where you “begin it” is a jumping off point… Not far, only down like 20-30 ft but too far to walk, cuz you are on a long Brown bridge, so just put in there below it….. Then you just swim through the rapids, but don’t be meek because the end is close. Just go over the waterfall, you won’t be able to paddle back up. Your soggy clothes will make for heavy loads as you walk climb back up to the water above. As you climb back up look for the marked boulder and grab the rope that sits at the foot of it. Use it to climb that tall pine nearby, I dropped the chest on my way over the waterfall and it got stuck up there, so I figured good enough…. at this point I’m too tired and weak…I’m too old, I can’t even remember if I am 79 or 80. I hated school so I’m not doing the math either, so if you’re brave enough just go get it, and you can have it….

  45. The following is my opinion.

    I do not think searchers realize the importance of the first clue. Talking about another clue is just a waste of time. Without the first clue one cannot decipher the second clue , and all the information is in the poem to do this. We do not need anything else, not even a map, or the TTOTC book, or even Fenn’s scrapbooks. If the searcher is looking for answers she, or he should be looking into the poem and nothing else, for nothing else matters. I think most searchers think the poem cannot be cracked, that it is too vague. Reason being they are not looking beyond what they see, so they give up and start making clues up without analyzing the poem. Just because you see something it does not mean it is.

    All this being said, what is the first clue? Notice I am asking what the first clue is and not what you think it is. There is a difference. Without over thinking it, what is the first clue? If all we need is the poem, and all the poem as opposed to most of the poem, what is the beginning of the poem? The beginning of the poem is where the poem starts, so the first stanza is the first clue and nothing else period.

    If you think there is another beginning to the poem you are lost my friend. This is where 99% of the searchers get lost in the beginning, and cannot get to clue #2. This is my opinion.RC

    • I have to totally disagree RC. The first stanza just “dangles out there”. It does not seem to “fit” stanza #2… or at least in my mind.

      Every riddle that I have ever read started with a question. Why not this riddle. If you move stanza #5 and #6 to above Stanza #1 – you start the riddle with a question. This also makes the last line – “Just take the chest and go in peace. Now doesn’t that make sense?

      I know, “Don’t mess with the poem”. Well, to me the architecture of the poem is a circle, so does it really “mess with the poem” if you start at a different line, but then leave all of the other lines consecutive, as written? A circle is a circle, no real beginning or end. I think not.

      I know that this is “different” – but give it some thought. It Makes a LOT of sense, it is VERY logical. Give it some thought. JDA

    • RC,
      If the beginning of the poem is clue 1, and a lot of folks believe that as well… What or why is there a question in the poem? Especially as question that is after … “Just take the chest and go in peace.”

      We’re analyzing, right? to do a full analysis we need all the information… so when we read stanza 1 and think it must be the first clue, do we stop reading and disregard the the rest of the poem until we figured out stanza 1’s first clue? At the beginning of the poem.

      Might is be, we need to understand the answers he already knows to figure out what is a clue and what a clue refers to?
      Fenn’s comments have been… need to know where to start, and start at the beginning. Maybe the suggestion is needing to start with a riddle place in stanza 5… I dare say it might be the least talked about stanza in the whole poem. Is there even a thread dedicated for, The Question?
      LOL we have legal pondering, that has more chatter the stanza 5. More folks worried about how fenn could have flown, drove, horseback, raft, took a hot air balloon or hop skip and jump from his home to the location of the hide.
      Why is it that when discussions of WhatIF are presented… it’s always attempted to be knock out by calling it over- thinking?
      Maybe the problem isn’t about over thinking or over simplifying… but just not understanding, because we make the poem to be what “we” want it to be.

      ~The poem start here, so it must be the first clue. ~ NO no no, the poem says begin it here, that is where we must start. lol… maybe fenn is telling us “where” to start to find the clues. Maybe where he went alone and now is tired and weak from being “in there”

      • Well said Sir. Lots to ponder, thanks for helping the discussion along Seeker. I guess my approach is not so “different” after all. JDA

      • @Seeker We need the poem to decipher clue #1, and we need clue #1 to find out clue #2. We searchers tend to look for evidence outside the poem,and all the evidence we need is in the poem. It is not what we see but what we don’t accept.RC.

        • RC, that is something I can agree with… we’re not seeming something, and it’s not outside the poem. But whatever it is we are not seeing, it sure seems that the possibility could lay else where in the poem. Especially when clues have been deciphered, indicated, on location, and every single searcher missed something… something right in front of them on site or more than likely in the poem.

          Maybe we should be asking ourselves why are we here [ at that location ] both from the poem and on site.

      • Seeker: “to do a full analysis we need all the information…”
        False

      • AH…” The Question ” stanza. I can remember some fairly lengthy, on and off threads about …”done it tired,…” over the years. But not much else unless you count the endless discussions about the word “trove”. The actual question itself is not exclusively talked about, that is true. As far as this being the reason Fenn has recently mentioned solving the “riddle” in the poem…I would not jump on that bandwagon too quickly because it fits a theoretical solve or implies that the “question” is the beginning.
        Time and circumstance has proven that searchers continue to come up short in completing the task… quite likely that is a trend that will not change until the Poem is solved as a whole. It still seems as though the big game of darts is only growing larger.
        It is good that some take that route just to see where it goes…as long as it seems right to them. That is all we can do for ourselves.

        • Come up short “Completing”? lol did they ever really get started?
          Seriously, those searchers on site didn’t know what they had, nor that they knew where to go. Completing doesn’t even seem to come into the equation. It was a mess from the start.
          Something is missing… deciphered clues, on site, walked by everything… clueless to any real fact. Yep… “important possibility” come to mind.

          • Seeker…you conveniently forget that Fenn has told us that we will not know we have solved the first clue until we have retrieved the little bronze box. That sorta kinda implies that one must “complete” the task to get to the end. Solving the Poem is what is missing.
            Finding a needle in a haystack might just boil down to jumping in physically and getting stuck in the butt. Or…something along that line of thinking. Call it hit or miss if you want…I call it learning experience.

          • Ken,
            Your right.. fenn stated just that. He has also stated many other things as well; on in particular…
            “I warned that the path would not be direct for those who had no certainty of the location beforehand, but sure for the one who did.” f

            While certainty is not factual, common sense dictates you will not “know” you have solve the first clue until you actually complete the desired task. You can say that about any of the clues, or even, baking a cake ~ screw up the ingredients and the cake could fall flat. We have been told as many as the first four [ by fenn’s understanding ] solved. But he’s not sure the searcher[s] knew.

            And we have the other comments of searchers “deciphering” “figured out” etc. and told fenn where they were… and still they didn’t seem to know the first clue[s]. So it sounds to me that, solving clues the part of isn’t impossible to do. but understanding the clues {again when on site, deciphered, beforehand etc.} seems to be more difficult then expected.. not a hop skip and jump to the chest.

            No Ken, I didn’t “conveniently” neglect to mention or forget that comment, I’m going over ‘all’ the comments related to it, and not hanging my hat on just one comment that works to make me feel better about my theories.

            Yep, the idea is to compete the task, but before we can, don’t we need to know how?
            LOL searcher have deciphered the clue, been on location, not only for the first two clues, but all of them and walked by everything… and never a one seemed to know.

            Hmmm, is it just me, or is something missing about the “…certainty of the location beforehand,…” Which those searchers seemed to forget or not understand the “significance” of where they were.

            I have asked the question, Is it possible that we need to use/utilize the clue in some manner…? Is that a reasonable assumption on how the clues could be deciphered / figured out, and not know, because they stopped thinking about the clue[s] themselves?

            “It’s not a matter of trying, it’s a matter of thinking. I mean, people have figured the first couple of clues and unfortunately walked past *the treasure chest”*
            They went by every clue, didn’t understand the first clue[s], went right by the destination point… that desired completion point [the treasure. Does that sound like a “wrong turn” to you?
            BOTG a must?

            Lets take another comment; “… put an X on the map” Is that the final point, the beginning point, the first critical clue point or stay home? Or might it mean, we need to see that X as all the clues combined?

            If we don’t ask ~ think about those WHatIF’s possibilities, I get the feeling many more will follow the same path has their predecessors.

            LOL, the rinse and repeat method.

            But, I am “sure” they all will have a great time. Yep, we might not “know” we have the first clue correct until we find the treasure… but don’t ya think we should have a dang good idea that answers the question… “what took me so long?” and not be guessing about it.

            There ya go… a new board game for anyone who want to try it out.
            ‘What took me so long solves’
            Do not past start until you can answer that question…

          • I am of the opinion , based on my solution or solve as it is called, that if a person does not have the true word that is key; then they will not notice the clues onsite. Identifying the correct keyword and correct meaning of the keyword should , in theory, transition all guesses of what is a site clue to an absolute clue identification . Otherwise, a person just may not see them for what they are. For me, it was my word that is key I identified that showed me the blaze that prior to identifying keyword, I didn’t recognize the blaze for what it was. Of course this of what is say sounds like nice conjecture owing to truth yet not realized without having the chest in hand. FF had said ( paraphrasing) the persons that solved the first 2 clues probabaly didn’t know it because they walked right past the other clues and chest ( Moby Dickens). So, it is questionable whether those ones actually did solve the first 2 clues, or was it a happenstance being on a day trip unrelated? People have been 200 ft to 500 ft of the chest- this is easily to be that close and such a potential situation at my area. This doesn’t mean I have the right spot nor the right solve; for I don’t know either way yet. Though for me, the word that is key answers all the repeating questions. Also , I am of the opinion that the keyword answers the riddle of the double omega. The most important thing that FF has said, IMO, is ” a word that is key”. Without it , there is repeating questions and guesses; being armchair or botg makes no difference without it, IMO.

          • Hi Als – I hope all is well with you.

            IMO – Stanza 1 – is a macro look of the region one needs to be searching.

            I also believe that if one can determine this location, then the other parts of the poem will fall into place.

            I also KNOW the first stanza contains a riddle. Is there a key word in this stanza. I think so…..because it helped me confirm my WWWH.

            BUT…..and there is always a but…..IMO – since it is not the “key word”, it will help you get started.

            IMO – the “key word” is not in Stanza 1…..but later in the poem.

            Good luck!

          • Tim.

            I have a bad habit of saying ” keyword”, Properly said is ,should be ,”word that is key”. There is a difference to the context in meaning when quoted incorrectly. Word that is key means an identifier of meanings of words, to me anyways. It helps with transitioning from guesswork to being more confident with identifying clues onsite. It should help with overall understanding, well for me it has with my solve anyways . The first clues are not necessarily dependant on it but extremely helpful after discovering the first 2 clues. IMO.

            You speak in terms of macro and micro and I understand the viewpoint of this. Though for me, magnification variance perception is notwithstanding as far as geographic location goes. Not in the poems wording either IMO. Macro and micro relate to a view point size, where as in the poem, there is no reference given to such a view differential. Heavy could be ,maybe ,but a hundred pounds of feathers is still a hundred pounds.

            My point I guess is that the word that is key for me has helped me identify the geographic clues at my area, mainly the blaze. Once I had what I believe is the blaze , everything else was no longer a guess imo. Just need to go to spot one last time. IMO.

            Have you just returned from a search?

          • Hi Als….Yes.. I do agree with the usage of “a word that is key”.

            I actually think there are two key words, and not one…..but then again, I’m not thinking like others have.

            I also believe, as I had stated, are at least two riddles in the poem. Now….could there be others? What exactly is a riddle? A phrase of words that represents a single object, but said in a strange and sometimes deceptive way. My definition.

            But if you look at each of the clues – or what could logically be clues – you will find them to be a form of a “riddle”…..because y ou have to figure out what the words mean in order to unlike the true meaning.

            Could there actually be 9 riddles in a poem of 9 sentences?

            Just thinking out loud…..pay no mind to me….*smiles*…..

      • “We’re analyzing, right? to do a full analysis we need all the information… so when we read stanza 1 and think it must be the first clue, do we stop reading and disregard the the rest of the poem until we figured out stanza 1’s first clue? At the beginning of the poem.”

        That is correct Seeker. I would not bother moving through the rest of the poem till figuring the first clue, if I am right in my thinking. Since I think I have figured out the riddle that is the first stanza I feel like it makes so much sense that I cannot look at the poem any differently.

        The first stanza is the first clue which points to an area. “Begin it” is where you start following the remaining clues in that area.

    • I’m with JDA. (can’t believe I said that). How can you know what f considers a clue. Your own words, “what is the first clue? Notice I am asking what the first clue is and not what you think it is”. Yes, what is the first clue?

      The poem needs to be solved in it’s entirety. Jump ahead, how can you say what the blaze is or looks like? Without guessing, you can’t. Not 100%, so there is a clue that cannot be solved. The problem RC, is that everyone is trying to solve what they think a clue is. He didn’t know he had 9 clues until he was done, that is the same thinking we need. Solve the poem to reveal the clues. The blaze was meant to throw off the searcher, I’m sure it does just that. So, how can we know with just the poem anything about the blaze except for the obvious?
      His after comments hold weight and need to be addressed. Are we to just think f is wasting his breadth? Stand ideally by?
      First stanza = first clue, I don’t know, maybe, won’t know until the whole poem is correctly solved. Only way to know that is with the chest. After getting that, then you will know the first clue.
      If you want to take the poem for a circle, could be, without messing with it. The core thought still is there. Need to solve the poem. Look on F’s website. Look at what he called clues. Do you or anyone really take those as “clues”? Do they help find the chest, like the clues are suppose to do, or do they just narrow down things and maybe help with the “clues”, like a “hint” is suppose to do? We don’t think those are clues, come-on, but there they are, on his website.
      We cannot know what is in F’s head about the clue debate, most likely because trying to solve for the clues and not the poem is the wrong approach. Saying all you need is the poem takes away from any help f may have given us after the poem. Trying to solve with only the poem, lol, good luck, why make it harder then it already is?

      • Surprise, surprise Charlie. One never knows what will happen tomorrow, until we get up, and there it is looking us in the face. JDA

      • Charlie: “Trying to solve with only the poem, lol, good luck, why make it harder then it already is?”

        Agreed 100% + another.

    • I heartily disagree RC about the first stanza. Beginners are NOT LOST or illusioned. In my opinion, the first stanza is simply a parenthetic expression which voices FF’s prime concern (the safety of his loved ones) prior to him stating where to begin the search in stanza 2. In stanza 1, he says he went in alone. No one else knows where but him. With his prime concern deftly put aside, now he can begin the clues to find the TC.

    • RC, I would encourage you to make an argument for all of your bald assertions. In my opinion, low post quality (I characterize low post quality as statements riddled with fallacy’s and poor use of proper grammar) is too prevalent on this site and it’s sad because I think the typical poster around here has good intentions and that’s not always easy to find on an internet forum.

      It makes for a more thought provoking and engaging experience for the reader when posters voice an opinion, idea or argument backed by some reasoning or proof. By it’s nature, a site like this is purposed for a user to share and absorb useful content and low post quality makes it difficult to do that.

      • reiteri,
        That’s a bald statement.
        Everything else I comprehended.

        Poor grammar & spelling award goes to…..
        The one who doesn’t care to be clear.

  46. @JDA I do not go with my gut when it comes to this poem. Without being sarcastic I go with what’s in front of me. I do not jump to conclusions without using the clues first. If we were to draw a circle surrounding the poem and we are solving the clues outside the circle, I think we will be wrong 100% with the conclusion. That is my take on the poem. RC.

  47. I think that where warm waters halt is the first clue – but you have to read and understand the 3rd stanza where it tell you what is wwwh with out the first clue all youll be doing is guessing it also tells where to go – where you can check if you have the right wwwh imo

    • im sorry but I meant to say that its the 2nd stanza that tells you that you have the right wwwh

  48. ok-my opinion. Forget 9 clues-forget it- If it is risky to ignore ANY words in the poem. Why try to limit clues. “Sounds like 3 or 4 to me” IN ONE VERSE. I think 9 clues is a total boondoggle. Almost every word can help you find the chest.

    JDA- I dont move the stanzas. I believe the first 3 help you find the blaze.
    Stanza 4 tells the story. Find the blaze, look quickly down, find the chest, open the chest, and leave in peace.
    Stanzas 5 and 6 explain how to find the chest.

    Charlie is also correct-since most of the words are critical you must understand the words in the entire poem and their relationships.

    One last thing that has helped me a lot is f statement that he knew the place where he was going to hide the chest from the very beginning.
    Then try to imagine how would you tell someone how to find a private, special place. What landmarks would you use. How would u tell someone when to change direction, turn on a road-go up or down a river/creek, etc.

    Just various thoughts

    • “I have a bad habit of saying ” keyword”, Properly said is ,should be ,”word that is key”.” – Alset

      Good point on word that is key. There is a word for me in the first stanza that helps with the entire poem. Word that is key is more accurate because it is the meaning of this word that helps not really the word itself so keyword is not a good term.

      Though I’m sure I understand the poem I haven’t found exactly where on the map to marry all of the clues. I feel like I have some good ideas but won’t know for sure till I get out there and walk them out from likely starting points.

      • Aaron. I agree somewhat about the word that is key. It means something but not what the words’ meaning is in the poem. IMO.

        Have a safe search and plan for all potential scenarios.

        Cheers!

        • My thoughts as well Alset though you have stated it more correctly.

          I will be considering all potential dangers when I search, thanks. This includes wildlife, raging rivers, getting lost, mosquitoes, tics, and sun. I run several times a week and hike frequently so I believe my stamina will be up for the task 🙂

          Aren’t you planning on your trip soon?

          • Aaron, I posted this OnE about it also. I went already I
            And and my first try to get to my specific spot. There is only 2 ways to it and I chose the shortest route , by appearances anyway lol, and had to turn back. I attempted to change direction to the other way from where I was at , at the time. Could get there from there. Was physically spent already, so was going to go again next day, the right way. But had to head back home next day for a job interview. So, planning to go again if I get the job, long hiring process in my industry. I will look to partner with someone to search with for next time. There is enough abundance to share the prize, being safe is priceless.

            I haven’t changed my 9 clue ideas in months. They have stood up strong amidst continuous scrutiny.

            You are going next month, right?

          • Aaron, I meant ” I went for my first full attempt” . And the other” I couldn’t get to it from where I started from” not Could get to it. Just finished first cup of coffee lol.

            I think there are 2 clues about getting to area and 7 are within the area.

    • Knowing there are 9 clues is outside the poem. If everything we need to know is in the poem, then to think there are 9 clues in the poem to solve would be wrong. Then you would have to think about not being able to solve the clues with just the poem. WWWH being the first clue is also outside the poem comment. Somewhat.
      I’m not saying you cannot solve any of the clues with just the poem, just some.
      You can’t state that all you need is the poem, and then talk about the first clue, second, etc…Why would you number the clues, trying to solve 9 when that comment is outside the poem. Looks like you need outside influence and not just the poem.

      • If all you need is the poem then you are stuck back when he said it.
        Things change every day, every week & month & year.

        Just search in Idaho to see if that’s all you need.
        HAhahaha

  49. “Begin it where warm waters halt…”
    Sounds pretty basic to me. F said begin…means ro start.
    WWWH is a REAL PLACE. If you don’t have that (WWWH) figured out, you don’t have anything. So, using logic, “Begin” is where the actual search begins.
    The first stanza is self explanatory:
    F was alone –(he told us this)
    In there—the location where it’s hid
    With his treasure bold–it’s a very outstanding treasure
    He can keep his secret (treasure location) where
    And HINT of riches new and old—poem directs you to the location of new/old treasures.
    It’s an introductory phrase, stating the purpose of the poem.

    How do we know WHAT and WHERE wwh? The only way to find that out, is pick your WW and see if the next lines in stanza two are compatability with that on the map. “Marry the clues to a map.”…F. Marry: to join.
    Once you have a probability of matching, BOTH to find a natural HOB, that’s where BOTG come in.
    3rd stanza describes where you will hike to using clues to describe your direction and area.
    4th stanza is the directions that explain by using your previous wisdom to get you to that point, and using F’s advice to observe your surroundings, looking for a geographical blaze (stands out), then (always!) LOOK DOWN at the treasure. Indulgence should be noticable within 12ft of it, noticeable if you are aware of your surroundings, (and should always aware out in nature!)
    I know…I know…”You don’t have the treasure, so what makes you right?” But, stop and ask yourself…”I don’t have it either so what makes me WRONG!” That’s something to think about! There’s that word again! Think…imagination!
    If I’m wrong, F sees this, let HIM correct me! BET HE DOESNT!
    For once, instead of trying to punch holes in something given, get on the floor and play with some toys. THEN, when you’ve regressed, read the poem again, but look at it like it’s a friend you play with! You’ll be surprised!

    Be safe
    ¥Peace ¥

    • Hi Donna,

      “How do we know WHAT and WHERE wwh? The only way to find that out, is pick your WW and see if the next lines in stanza two are compatible with that on the map.”

      In my opinion, this is why you fail: you assume the first stanza ~doesn’t~ help you in figuring out WWWH. I contend that you cannot figure out WWWH without figuring out the first stanza. If you start at “Begin it” you may very well be discounting the very information needed to solve WWWH. It looks like simple clunky words there in stanza one, but don’t be so sure.

      • Agree with Zap, sounds like guess work to me right from the start.
        probability is a bad word to use when you need to be exact. Sorry Donna, with that line of thinking, I don’t see how one could leave their home with confidence. Especially if I have to look around for a deceptive(camouflaged) blaze that I don’t have any idea what it looks like.

        • Also don’t think f meant for us to throw darts at a map to find a WWWH. Just out of the blue pick a WWWH near a canyon I suppose, that makes one confident enough to then go BOTG? Yikes…

      • zap I might be wrong also but I to don’t think that the first stanza has not thing to do with finding wwwh.- the first stanza in the way I understand the poem is the last place you will go in there and get the tc – its just not looking for a treasure chest that is hid and you cant see but looking for a place that you can -every one has an opinion and this mine

    • Donna,
      You started well but lost me along the way.
      I think you got the start anyway.

        • Begin it wwwh.
          I will eat my hat if his is not the 1st clue.

          Many think this is not & would be willing to share some of my sustenance to those that think it’s not.

          I think the 1st clue has common properties as the last clue or that area.
          I need to take a bath right now.

          • Haha Meadowlark.
            My hat tastes fine.
            I’m still waiting for someone to make me eat it & you are not the server or chef.

            Please let me know when you have culinary skills to find the treasure & I will be ready to chew, otherwise screw.

          • I won’t make you eat your hat.
            I will ask how the Canasta game is going.

            And all of your other ideas are so good.

            I wish you luck, just don’t find it before Labor Day. I do want to try once more.

          • I don’t know how to play Canasta & don’t have the desire to learn.
            Aint nobody gonna make me eat my hat.
            That’s for you guys & gals to consume.

  50. I think the idea of nine clues is one of the biggest stumbling blocks for all searchers.
    What if Forrest just said read and understand the poem and it will lead you to the treasure. No 9 nothing.
    Just take the poem at face value, equal value on all stanzas, and see where it leads you.

    The other mental handcuff that gets us all is the simple act of finding a decent solution.
    I find it almost impossible to consider any alternatives once I have locked onto something that seems right. The only way to escape a solve is BOTG.

    • “The only way to escape a solve is BOTG.”

      Amen to that. I just escaped another one myself.

      The most interesting thing I find about escaping a solve is that the new ideas come SO quickly after that realization that the solve is wrong.

      • I concur with that. It is hard to think beyond a good hypothesis before it is proven to be false. I also find that it is difficult to process information in the field. The big connections seem to come on the plane ride home or in the shower the next day.

      • Hi Muset.

        “The most interesting thing I find about escaping a solve is that the new ideas come SO quickly after that realization that the solve is wrong.”

        What is even more interesting…..

        – is when your solve can’t be debunked after you have BOTG.

        :o)

        One thing I did find troublesome while having BOTG is if you find something that peaks your interest, and you go in that direction, but forget to include all aspects of the direction…..thus not doing a complete search of your target area.

        DOH!

    • “I think the idea of nine clues is one of the biggest stumbling blocks for all searchers.”
      ————————————————————-
      Meadowlark … that there are supposedly 9 clues vis-a-vis 3 or 7 or 27 clues seems arbitrary, and I would therefore agree with you. However …

      I don’t see the number 9 as “one of the biggest stumbling blocks”. There are far more serious contenders for that title. And these more serious searcher problems are very basic.

      Ken (in Texas)

      • The problem I see with some of you is you don’t know the difference from a hint to a clue in the poem.

        • Haaaahaaa! Oh! please clue guru, enlighten us all with your crystal ball knowledge.
          If you found a note next to a hammer and it said. hammer nail… you’d have a sore thumb because you can only see a clue / hint the way ‘you’ want is to be.

          ~ the poem talks about water so the chest must be in water… don’t worry about fenn’s thought of thousands of years down the road, Just plan to bring your swimming trunks. Don’t worry about “if you know precisely where the chest is” you can probably retrieve it in any weather… Just make sure we all drag a portable gas hole digger to get through that thick ice. Don’t worry about the 15 other lines in the poem, only 9 of them really count.

          Yet, you know what are problems are?! Geeezuuusss. The color of the sky in your world must be psychedelically mind blowing.

          • Seeker,
            You are one confused searcher.
            Half the comments I read by you don’t make sense & Confucius would be confused if he read the likes.

            Forget everything you know about the chase except the 9 clue comment & go back to the poem & figure out which words leave a big ? mark in your clouded brain.

            Write all your notes down & you will know that there are 9 absolute unknowns in the poem & the rest are hints & other info not helping you to find what you will find.

            Let me know when you’re done. Nevermind, you’re probably not able to do this.

          • Strong words Jake, for one who has also not found the treasure. Just sayin’ JDA

          • How funny you are, Jake, that you think I haven’t thought of a straight-out 9 lines 9 clues, any type/style of theory.

            The reason you can’t understand my post is, because I you can’t think any other way than what you want the poem to be. I don’t simply dismiss parts of the poem as lacking or less important because I personally like other parts better… because they seem ‘easily’ straightforwards. I don’t get stuck on a “general” solve just because water is mentioned ~ so everything about hiding the chest must be about water and that the chest ‘must’ in water.

            I have taken time, to at least, look at possible readings of the poem involving time, and other factors related to an extend period of time {because fenn had that in mind}. While you knock anything that is unrelated to your own brilliant, one way only, dismiss the author’s after the fact comments when they interfere with your theory postings.

            Then ya got the coconutz to say: “The problem I see with some of you is you don’t know the difference from a hint to a clue in the poem.”
            Yet, not even willing to discuss any WhatIF’s that don’t relate to your line of thinking only.

            To be honest, I don’t give a rats tail how you do any of this… just don’t tell me you know what searchers problems are as if you know anything at all… Your track record so far suck, to be telling anyone else, what they are doing wrong.

            If ya want to make a statement like the one you did… have the brains, information, and guts to at least give a reasonable argument for it.
            It’s a dang discussion broad… Put that salmonella hat down for once and offer critique analysis, for or against any topic, idea, line of thinking, possibilities, WhatIF’s… and probable solves.

          • Hear that sound Seeker?
            Wooosh!

            That was my clear thoughts posted on what you missed as usual.

            Do me a favor & read what you wrote.
            You would do us all a favor if you did this before pressing the button.

            What if’s – is a dead end that leads people like you to endless possibilities. Your like a plane that is going down a runway & never leaves the ground.

            The plane was designed to take flight but your runway is running out.

            Look above where Mr Tesla commented about the 9 clues & you will understand. Oh, you can’t & probably won’t.

            I’m not going to repeat myself time & time again as you. Do your research or do yourself.

          • The only form of horography in the poem is “new and old” and ” look quickly down”. Not elemental in topography in any way in the poem IM0. Though the missing link to understanding gravity is horography- as Tesla had understood. LoL. I

          • Jake, that is all you do… repeat the same thing, “You won’t understand…” or “you can’t understand”… Get JCM documents before you want to challenge me to a gunfight. You’re going to need plenty of ammo.
            You like to tell it your way, but when challenge to add informative information of your thoughts, conclusion, theories, those seem to disappear with your normal rhetoric.
            When challenge by the use of fenn’s own comments you ignore the actual discussion. conversation, arguments for or against, and start the same BS all over again.. Has you said ~ “What if’s – is a dead end that leads people like you to endless possibilities.”

            Sure, why not just toss that aside too…Only that is was fenn’s suggestion to think about.. but you surely know more than the guy who started it all, right?
            LOL then you come back with that 12 year old mentality… “Oh! you can’t and & probably won’t” and “Do your research or do yourself.”

            Do yourself?…lol, Punk childish response ~ again… out come the insults. I have had debates, heated discussion, bang heads with a lot of good searchers/people with a wide range of personalities and disagreements, without insulting each other… which seems to be your MO.
            {But I do however, have a low tolerance for the know it all’s and childish crap and whiners’… that is admittedly so}

            So we’re done here…

          • Thanks for the compliments Seeker.
            I’ve seen many of your insults pointed at many bloggers so don’t be such a hypocrite.

            I offered a different way to see the clues in the poem without pinning those words or phrases to places on a map.

            If you cannot see this & speculate on this, then I think you need to do something else besides throwing flat smooth rocks on the surface of the pond where none sink to the bottom & all reach the other side to be thrown back.

            We are only done here when the treasure is found.

      • “Forrest, Did you intend for there to be 9 clues, or did it work out to be just right with 9? ~ halo
        Nice thinking halo, I didn’t count the clues until the poem had been finalized. Although I changed it a few times over the months I think the number stayed about the same.f ”

        Ken, I’m not sure arbitrary was the goal… As fenn stated he changed it over and over and it stayed “about” the same. He may not have “Planned” to have 9 clues or any specific amount, but he knows that there is 9.
        He tells the reader just prior to the poem that, there is 9 important pieces of information needing to be understood, deciphered, used or any other reason for them to consider… That amount itself is helpful to know, and fenn seem to feel it was important to say it.

        On the other hand… fenn could have stated it like that to allow self confusion… not directly misleading, but making it just that more difficult to comprehend ~ Or basically saying, 9 sentences contain important pieces of information needed, solve the entire poem’s effect/idea, don’t leave nothing out of the equation. I mean, He didn’t want the challenge, for a million plus in gold and trinkets, to be easy, right. So he’s making you think right from the get go.

        “It’s not a matter of trying, it’s a matter of thinking. I mean sure, people figured the first couple of clues and unfortunately walked past the treasure chest”

        Fenn’s comment above, gave one or both of the first two clues a physical location. Could it be that even though a clue reference can be known, at, found, that we need all 9 references to utilize? Not just stomped? Hence the need to know about how many clues are actually involved.

        Disregarding the fact that fenn mention the poem containing 9 clues to be followed and will lead to the chest… seems to me, it was important enough for him to mention… we should think that it’s important enough to understand why he mentioned it. And, maybe why clue “#1” seems to be the critical clue, and not just a place.

        “Do expect that people will somehow *know* for sure once they have found the first clue?
        No, many people have found the first clue but they didn’t know it. Until someone finds  the treasure they will not know for sure that they have discovered the first clue.”

        IF clue #1 is found but will not be “known for sure” until the treasure is found… maybe clue #1 is more about… using it.. it’s location, it’s reference, how it can be workable with 8 other clues etc. and if you can’t find the chest… go back to clue #1 because you ‘misused’ it or another clue. Not just walked by clue[s].

        We are looking for a very small spot “precisely” that is only the size of a sheet of paper.
        Difficult but, not impossible… doesn’t mean to ignore fenn’s statement and dismiss 9 anythings to make it easier~ more straightforward.

        My example of thought [ only a line of thinking ]
        Tarry Scant could hint to a math equation ~ Tarry Point, and 9 point circle, line of thinking… Using 9 specific point [ clues ] to locate an exact spot. Hence the use of a good detailed map. The idea, or line of thing, might be a little far fetch… but the premise is about; utilizing the clues and not just walking to and past them.

        Just thoughts of why fenn may have wanted us to know about 9 specific pieces of information. And not “thinking” they are arbitrary in nature.

        • The difficulty is in knowing that you define a clue the same way as Mr Fenn. I think we would have equal disagreement among searchers as to what information is critical no matter how you slice and dice the poem.
          And a “good” map I think is a hint about using a very specific map, a treasure map. Or that might be another of my SWAGs. But that’s another topic.

          • Meadowlark,

            The map, a good map, the right map, GE…. Ok, no doubt we need to be going over map[s] “or” GE [or both]

            “A map is a map, the more detail the map the better…” What details are you looking at or for when you utilize a map or GE?

            Just curious…

        • Seeker, you are correct in what Fenn wrote about the number 9. In my response to “Meadowlark”, above, I should have used the word “accidental” or “nominal”, instead of “arbitrary”.

          Either way, I think it’s more important to geographically link one’s first clue to the second, and the second to the third, until searcher reaches chest..

          I can do most of the work at home using a map, which of course is where you and I disagree. I come into agreement with you re: BOTG when I reach “waters high”.

          Ken (in Texas)

          • Ken,
            Don’t get me wrong. When I say in a theory, it’s just that, a theory. I can see a way that the poem ‘could’ lead right to the chest location without traveling the physical steps of the clues. I can see a way the clues ‘can be’ close [ within 500′ a 1000′ ] or another way they ‘might’ stretch over the entire RM range.
            I can see how the clues ‘might need’ to be use/utilized as an alignment of sorts…
            When I think about the ATF comments. such as; a map is a map, I don’t really think about a type of map as much as, ponder the details of “the right” map.

            I can’t disagree that your BOTG at water high is not correct… in a theory that is quite possible… But I have to wonder if a searcher can’t find the chest, fenn says; go back to the first clue. Physically go back? Metaphorically go back to the drawing board? In either case it seems he’s telling us; a searcher might get 2, 3, 4, 5 clues correct and still not find the chest… so start over.
            LOL, then In another comment tells us; if you know hoB why would you concern yourself with wwwh? So, If we decipher clues correctly [ no matter what you or I think the first clue is ] Is fenn just saying in an overall view of any solve; if you can’t find the chest, you need to start over again to figure out where you went wrong? or could it be that you ‘must’ go back to the first clue because you calculated some wrong… and the first clues is the starting position for a correct alignment?

            Depending on how we read the poem.. as a map.. interpret the clues.. understand the clues references etc. we keep hearing the same thing… need to nailed, go back, understand the first clue. imo yells beforehand [ know what the first clues is, why it is the first clue, do we need to utilize it? etc.], otherwise, even when we get to the site we don’t know what the heck is going on and walk by everything.

            So when I think about the comment “If you **know** hoB” why would we concern ourselves with wwwh, a couple things come to mind. IS wwh the first critical clue? and/or is the first clue solved “completely” and now we know that if we get a later clue, like hoB, we should already understand wwh to the point we don’t need to be concerned about reverse engineering backwards.

            Look at the scenario this way. Clue 1 as a starter point that connects all the correct clues If we have correctly deciphered and discover a later clue… we did that, and possibly only could do that, by nailing down that first clue to keep all the other clues aligned properly.

            It’ a theory like any other theory, open for discussion, and trying to understand, not only the book, the poem, but all the ATF information that fenn has been kind enough to supply… Q&A’s, book signings etc. etc. I can’t personally pick and choose what works for me in my perfect little solve, and toss what doesn’t…
            I’d be a fool to do so. Review everything the author has told us over the past seven years and attempt to make sense of it all.

            As of late… a lot of the chatter here lean more to… NOT in my solve, fenn didn’t mean that, You over complicate it, It’s this way only, why do you keep quoting fenn, and have tempter tantrums when something is said the don’t like…
            A lot of good folks who use to join the discussion have backed way. I’m staring to understand why they did. I just might follow their lead as well.

            However Ken, it’s folks like you that can actually disagree [ even if the debated gets heat up ] with others point of view and still give good arguments to voice your ideas, [ even though you’re completely wrong..lol.. insert smiley face ] that keep me interested in chatting with others that have the same interest.

          • Hi Seeker.

            You wrote:
            “So, If we decipher clues correctly [ no matter what you or I think the first clue is ] Is fenn just saying in an overall view of any solve; if you can’t find the chest, you need to start over again to figure out where you went wrong? or could it be that you ‘must’ go back to the first clue because you calculated some wrong… and the first clues is the starting position for a correct alignment?”

            I have to disagree, because one may be keen to think the location they have chosen is correct, and will continue to work their solution uising this location.

            For example.

            I’ve chosen a place…..I’ve gone two times…..but both times, I learned of some new things while transversing the area I’m searching.

            Do I just throw it all away and start anew in a new area, when I believe the area I have chosen is correct in more ways than just one or two? I think not. I’ll continue to dig my claws in deeper to weed out the information that is causing me to not find the TC.

            Is it just me being “wild-eyed”? Maybe….but clearly, too many coincidences eventually lead you to the facts.

            Cheers and good luck.

          • Seeker;

            Your logic is clear and concise. Your points well made, but I have a slightly different view of why Forrest says to read the poem over and over and over again, and why he says that (paraphrasing) if you do not know where it is at, go back to the first clue.

            As I have repeatedly stated, I feel that the architecture of the poem is a circle.

            As the poem is originally written, stanza #6 flows into stanza #1. Since I moved stanzas #5 and #6 to the top of the poem, Stanza #4 flows into Stanza #5. Anyway –

            Once the searcher goes all of the way through the poem, yet fails to find Indulgence, is it possible that Forrest is telling us to go back through the poem again, but starting this “search” from the last point that we ended up on our first reading of the poem?

            Reading # 1 takes us from point “A” to “B” to the “Nth” point. After reading #1 we do NOT go back to point “A”, but rather this time we start at the “Nth” point and find a NEW “N +1″, N + 2” point etc.

            Yes, this means that there will be more wwwh’s, more canyon downs, more hoB’s etc….yes, even more than one blaze…..maybe up to five, before Indulgence is found.

            I know, finding just one (the correct one) wwwh halt was difficult enough, and now I postulate that the searcher will have to find up to five – – – I MUST be MAD – crazy – a lunatic – – – but yes, that is what I am postulating. What do you think Seeker? How about this for a WhatIF? JDA

          • JDA,
            Right or wrong in your thoughts… Your explanation of your theory is basically saying; need to know where to start, and start at the beginning comments. Great!

            It’s not about talking and chatting who is right and wrong… it’s about exploring information given and exploring possibilities. Thru those thoughts and theories… is what we hope to accomplish in understanding fenn’s poem. “Discovering” what clues actually refer to, and not just find / “found” a clue.
            Discovering; as to knowing. And found; as to just coming across, line of thinking.

            Your thoughts and theories could be absolutely correct, or completely fable in actuality [ and neither matter]. My only objective to chat about anyone’s thoughts and theories, to see those possibilities, by referencing what we have been told and how to possibly fill in the unknowns, or possibly understand what might not be.

            We, as in all bloggers, need to get off our high horse and get back to the basic of coming to a blog, and debating, chatting, call it what you will, and keep the egotestical attitudes at bay.

            So, back to your “the architecture of the poem is a circle.” In theory, it is a possibility of one way to read the poem… Is it a physical way of tracking the clues? I have my doubts… for one reason, fenn was asked if the clues would circle around or back. {I don’t have the quote but i recall hearing it}

            Is your theory working on the full premise that we are to actually walk a circle? or simply understand how the flow of the poem work?
            I have never been able to understand ‘exactly’ what your ideas bring you to do, in a physical search.
            It’s one thing to read the poem, as a map, and another to act it out.

          • Seeker;

            Regarding your question: ” Is your theory working on the full premise that we are to actually walk a circle? or simply understand how the flow of the poem work?”

            The answer is both. I think that the first reading of the poem, and finding a “solve” can be done almost completely from home. BotG IS necessary though as you near the last clues. You HAVE to put BotG for the last few clues. Once a thorough search is made, and Indulgence is not found, the second (and possibly subsequent) searches can be done with BotG, OR at home – looking at GE or other good maps. For me, my first reading of the poem took me from an area of about 10 miles square. The second reading placed me within a area of about 4 miles square. The next reading, an even smaller area, so as the area got smaller, BotG searches became more possible. The distances between defined points found in the poem became smaller.

            BotG is absolutely needed for the final reading, the “Complete” solve, vs the “General” solves that will lead the way to the FINAL COMPLETE solve.

            Just how I see it, others may think I am crazy, but that is half of the fun. JDA

          • Hi JDA.

            You echo what I’ve stated in the past years ago…..one needs to view the poem in a Macro to Micro sense.

            Whether you choose to continue to use this size reduction method for each clue, one could agree, considering “tarry scant” relates to “staying a bit longer” or “looking for an inadequate amount of ‘tar'”…..one still moves within a larger area in order to find a “small location” (10″x10″ piece of land).

            Cheers!

    • Meadowlark: “The only way to escape a solve is BOTG.”

      This is not true.
      I have eliminated many, many solves without putting a foot on the ground in the Rocky’s.

      • I agree. It is not so difficult to eliminate a candidate solution. Simply ask yourself if your candidate has any significant elements that are just glorified guesses. If the answer is in the affirmative you’re done, unless you’re just looking for an excuse to vacation in the Rockies! The book is pretty clear once you catch on. If your solution is based mainly on a single major idea/thought/concept (whatever you want to call it) poke/prod/kick/dissect etc that concept until it fails. The hard part is sober assessment when you’re command and control center is jazzed on dopamine. That more than anything else is responsible for the bad choices that people have made. I did some profoundly stupid things in my early attempts to solve it.

  51. Well, at the end of next month I’ll have been in this search for one year. My wife lives in a separate room now, and I’ve lost all my friends. My dogs don’t even lick my face any more. What can I say? It’s been thrilling. 🙂

  52. JD, the circles is an interesting thought. My first general solve had me oddly finishing in a circle and coming back to a place I was already at. I was wrong though. But you are smarter than that my friend. The poem is “Straightforward”.

  53. “I think there are 2 clues about getting to area and 7 are within the area.”

    That is about what I have suspected.

    Sorry to hear you didn’t make it to your spot. I am going at the end of next month. If I do not find it then I will look to team up as well. There is more than enough and I believe that a team of motivated searches would do well working together.

  54. Hi everyone, I cant say I’ve ever looked into this treasure hunt before today, but I had a boring lecture and stumbled across this during the day. I used google to do most of my research, but I liked this as an exercise of futility (I live in Europe). Anyway, hope you enjoy my European take on the hunt and good luck everyone! And in advance, this is all speculation, I know nothing!

    “As I have gone alone in there”
    This can be taken in two ways, and becomes important later in my explanation. Yes, it could mean that he is the only one who has gone or been to the hiding place, or (as he has said previously that people have been very close to the treasure) it could mean that he was somewhere at a time when no-one else was there (I was alone in a shop, when normally it is full of people, or in a rented lodge on his own)

    “Hint of riches new and old”
    This stuck in my mind – new and old is oddly poetic, the treasure is unlikely to contain ‘new treasure’. In my mind, and linking to another clue, this sounds like the ‘old world’ and ‘new world’. The new world was a treasure to be exploited by the ‘old world’ and the Lewis and Clark expeditions were an adventure, almost a hunt into the unknown to discover treasure, very much the intention of Forrest when he set up this hunt – to get people out and exploring.

    “Begin it where warm waters halt”
    Lewis and Clark travelled the majority of their journey by boat/canoe, but not the whole distance. Reading about their journey, the area in and around three rivers, twin bridges and beaverhead rock also saw them riding horses (ties in with too far to walk) after coming to the end of the Jefferson river. There is also ample literature online regarding the abnormally warm waters during drought in the Jefferson river. The three forks also offers a starting location in this area at which rivers rivers combine and join.

    “Take in the canyon down”
    I agree, this sounds like a river or canyon you have to follow. However, in addition, ‘Canyon Corner’ is south of Three Forks (canyon down), and following the river from twin bridges you arrive at Canyon campsite, that
    you can clearly see is found next to the Lewis and Clark Caverns State Park.
    http://www.jeffersonriver.org/Canoe_Trail_Maps/Middle_Jefferson.pdf

    Additionally, the whole area is found to be in the shadow of Brownback mountain (although i dont believe this is the reason for the use of Brown in the poem)

    “Put in below the home of Brown”
    Within the Lewis and Clark Caverns is a waterfall, called Brown Waterfall

    ‘Waterfalls are some of the
    prettiest and most complex
    cave formations. The longest
    formation in the cave is a giant
    waterfall cascading down The
    Pit. The Brown Waterfall is the
    most photographed formation in
    the whole cave.’

    stateparks.mt.gov/fwpDoc.html?id=52360

    I believe we are being told to follow the river further, beyond the home of Brown (the Lewis and Clark Caverns) to a point at which there is ‘no place for the meek’

    “From there it’s no place for the meek”
    Now things get really interesting. Further south towards Twin Bridges is an area called ‘Hell’s Canyon’. From our childhood bible studies, we all know that ‘The meek shall inherit the Earth’, so there should be no meek in Hell. With ‘the end ever drawing nigh’ we should be coming towards the location of the treasure. I’ve had a look (again on google) at the elevation of the surrounding area, and it seems to be around 1410m. I know that the treasure should be above 1500, but this area is full of hills and mountains, and a short walk could easily elevate you above the required height.

    “There will be no paddle up your creek, just heavy loads and water high”
    Looking at a map of upper Jefferson canoe trail, you can see that at Hell’s canyon there is a small creek that rises into the surrounding mountains.

    http://www.jeffersonriver.org/Canoe_Trail_Maps/Upper_Jefferson.pdf

    This looks far too small to paddle, and I believe that the phrase ‘there will be no paddle’ is an indication of the size of the stream or river you should be looking for. Anything that is big enough for a boat should be disregarded as a search area. As the source of hell’s canyon creek is above the canyon, i believe the treasure should be found somewhere near this creek as you climb higher up the mountain (even by car along the track). In other words, the water in the creek is above you, or ‘high’, how high I am not sure, but be sure to search above 1500m! Whats more, there is an area of heavy woodland and forest all over this area, which fits with the final lines of the poem ‘If you are brave and in the wood, I give you title to the gold’

    “If you’ve been wise and found the blaze”
    This is a search in earnest from this point on. I thick there will be a mark or some obvious marker for the discerning adventurer. The next line ‘Look quickly down, your quest to cease’ means in my mind that you will easily be able to stand above the treasure, and when you look down it will be marked with the ‘tarry scant’.

    As a followup to my first point, Hell’s Canyon Guard Station (link below) is available to rent, and could be the place he went alone, but which is not secret, as my first point alludes to.

    https://www.recreation.gov/camping/hells-canyon-guard-station/r/campgroundDetails.do?contractCode=NRSO&parkId=75220

    Anyway, I have to get back to work, but good luck to you all with your quest!

    • I’m impressed that you have done so much in one day . . .
      but realistically, please expect to spend hundreds of hours
      working on a good solve of the poem, before attaining it.
      I’m not trying to imply that any of your posting is part of a
      good solve, but I applaud your focused effort so far. I
      think your enthusiasm is the kind that is required to solve
      the poem. But I also believe that this summer, the
      treasure chest will be found . . . and not because of any
      “additional information” provided by Forrest Fenn in order
      to hasten the end/conclusion of this entire treasure hunt.

      Reading any blogs/forums about it won’t help much, in my
      opinion. Focus on the poem, but reading the two popular
      books by Forrest Fenn could help. They helped me.

      If you ever go into the Rocky Mountains on a search trip,
      please do a lot of research regarding safety in the
      mountains . . . before you leave home. Good luck in
      your solving and searching, and thank you for posting.

      The above is my opinion. Yours may differ.

  55. I have always believed that clue #1 was “And hint of riches new and old”. As with all the lines in the poem it is open to diverse interpretation. Am looking for feedback on mine. I am looking at riches in the monetary sense, especially gold. So what part of the Rockies is rich in new and old gold? There is a map. Tweto and Sims COLORADO MINERAL BELT (1963). This would give a definitive area to search for WWWH. Kevin

  56. SEEKER, JCM, et al:

    MW Question posted 6/20/2014:
    Dear Forrest, which is the first clue; the first line or the line that starts with Begin it where warm waters halt? ~Carolyn

    Thanks Carolyn, you guess.f
    …………………………………
    April 3, 2013 – – New Zealand radio podcast- –
    http://www.radionz.co.nz/audio/player?audio_id=2550897

    Host->If an unemployed guy in a pickup truck is driving across from Texas to have a look, you don’t necessarily need local knowledge, local geography knowledge?…..

    Fenn-> NO! THE FIRST CLUE IN THE POEM IS ‘BEGIN IT WHERE WARM WATERS HALT, THAT’S THE FIRST CLUE. IF YOU DONT..IF YOU CAN’T FIGURE THAT CLUE OUT, YOU DON’T HAVE ANYTHING!
    …………………………….

    First: Curious Hobbit, go buy that lad a beer for me would ya??

    Second: How the hell did I miss this for four years?? (and JCM? 🙂 )

    Third: Goofy, this ain’t on the Media Page!!!???

    Fourth: If BWWWH is unequivocally the FIRST clue, – a. what in the Poem identifies what it is (all the info is there)? – b. what is unequivocally the NINTH clue(in the Poem)?

    Jake, ya wuz right all along (about the first clue)…..dammitt!! 🙂

    • For me it is has always been the start of the contiguous clues. Begin it…..then ends at cease. The blaze is the 9th clue. IMO.

    • Loco,
      You are one smart, persistent, logical, intelligent, person.
      KABOOM!
      You found the beginning.

      Right at 9:30 in the audio link you posted.
      Thank you for finding this.

      Of course some will not believe what I just heard but we know what the 1st clue is.

      • Jesus vindication halleluia –

        Henceforth we can tell all the First Stanza Friends to bugger off.

        Right Jake? And everybody?

        Lugnutz

        • You got that right Lug,
          It also squashes all the nine sentences = 9 clues crap.
          Rips apart that there is a clue in each stanza.

          Basically tells you where to start & seeing this is the “Begin it” start also tells you where to “Cease”.
          I will cease it where warm waters don’t exist.

          We know where the 1st clue is & confirmation is key.
          I think we should have a holiday called “Loco”.

          We now have the 1st clue “BIWWWH” & “the blaze”, I would suspect the where the blaze is the last clue.

        • All the hype about the first clue is great but do not overlook the first stanza. There are a number of places where WWH and the first stanza points to where to look. f’s idea of clues are directions but you can be lead to the right area to start the directions from the first stanza IMO.

          • Hi Aaron –

            Can tell me what you mean? I know youre going to say yiu cant tell me blah blah blah.

            Im not asking where the treasure is, i am juat asking what in the first stanza you think informs you as to where or what WWH is.

            Please, i would love to hear from one person 9n this one time. Your all searching seperate areas thousands of miles apart.

            Thanks
            Lugnutz

          • The best I can say is that the first stanza is a riddle. Upon solving this riddle you have found a geographical location. This geographical location enables you to know how to pinpoint the first clue WWWH.

          • Ok i figured you wouldnt say.

            If you evet get to look or if someone else finds it please come back and tell me what you thought the riddle was.

            I think its just a classical opening done exactly as we teach it to freshmen.

            Lugnutz

          • More than happy to. Judging from some people’s comments I think at least 2 others on here have the same thoughts about it as I.

          • Aaron –

            Lots and lots of people think the first stanza is significant. Call ’em hints or clues people see ’em.

            But here is the funny thing about it. NONE of those people ever come back and tell us what they thought the firs stanza was pointing to. Take a look around. All of the published solves start with some variation on warm waters.

            I will give an example of one of the many ways I have looked at the first stanza.

            Gone Alone in There is a reference to Bar Nunn Wyoming which makes WWWH Tea Pot Dome. Once you think that sounds like something you start looking at the chapter about Olga and her tea.

          • Hi Aaron: I’m not sure that I would quite call the first stanza a “riddle,” but I would agree with you that it provides information necessary to pinpoint Forrest’s WWWH.

          • Hey zap…IMO…it is like a riddle, but vague, and can lead the seeker to the starting point.

            It’s a tough one though.

            Good luck.

    • Thanks again Loco.
      I am not eating my hat on that one.

      Do you realize how huge this is, what you found & posted?

      You found a gem hidden for a few years & I don’t know how you found it.
      This is huge, bigger than huge, humungus, stupendous, enormous, gargantuan.

      I think I just wet myself.
      The treasure is wet anyway.

    • Loco, this is old news. You act like this is big news, I can’t imagine anyone not knowing WWWH is the first clue, so I didn’t think it necessary to put on the cheat sheet, I mean good grief the poem tells us where to start.

      I realize there are those lost souls that don’t think WWWH is the first clue; but everyday folks post pure nonsense (in my opinion) that directly goes against what Fenn has told us. So what’s new?

        • Sort of puts a time line on those folks who were close but walked right on past, IMO. Interview April 2013 so ‘those two groups’ would have been prior to spring of 2013, 2010, 2011 and 2012 searchers, who were there and where? Also, shoots a hole in theses searchers who feel there is one clue in every line! IMO.

        • Sorry Jake, didn’t mean to demean anyone. I’m just very surprised this is such a revelation. Like I said, everyday folks go on and on with nonsensical ideas that go directly against what Fenn has said. If you point it out to them they get all upset and start doing silly mental contortions of what he “really” meant.

          I can guarantee there will be many that will still say WWWH is not the first clue.

          • Goofy,
            I don’t see it is a revelation but definitely a confirmation.
            There is a big difference between thinking & knowing & Loco has provided the proof to many solves poofing in the wind.

            I always thought this was the 1st clue & now I know & the canyon down is the 2nd I would presume.

            It’s not everyday you get confirmation even though some throw that word around here thinking they know but they don’t & now we do for the 1st clue in the poem & the location it marries will come soon.

          • I agree with you Jake. This means lots of folks have found WWWH and took the correct canyon down. Or they found WWWH and identified home of Brown. Like I said, I agree with you.

            He also repeated in that interview why he included his biography. So the finder of the treasure, a long time from now, will know something about him. He wants to fill in the blank spots (as he calls it) for the finder of the chest.

            He has recently came out and told us why so many have solved the first two clues. Because they are found on a map. The remainder of the clues will have to be figured out on location. This makes finding the treasure extremely difficult but not impossible.

            I know this throws most here into a maniacal fit but this is just as clear to me as WWWH is the first clue.

            As always, just my opinion.

      • I was one of those “lost souls.” I thought WWWH was the second clue, and “alone in there” was the first, which gave me a direction of a “desert basin,” which desert has now been ruled out.

      • Goofy: if WWWH=1st clue is such a universally accepted and long-standing “Fenn Fact”, please explain why it isn’t tallied in the Most Important Information page. You let Seeker and JDA and others go on for years wasting their time on theories which clearly violate this information. Don’t recall you ever disabusing them of their notions that the first stanza holds no clues.

        • Zap, I’ve for the most part quit correcting folks for awhile now. They get mad or say that’s not what he meant or completely ignore what he has said or say he’s fibbing or being tricky.

          Folks get upset with Seeker for posting Fenn’s comments that clearly contradict what they are saying. He must of got tired of it cause he hasn’t posted in awhile.

          They also take what he has said out of context like the 3 or 4 clues in one stanza comment. Some still insists on the Pinon thing even though he clearly says that’s not a clue. I could go on and on with the bizarre ideas folks post here daily.

          I doubt JD will change his mind about the first clue, he and others think the clues are a circle when some have posted Fenn’s comment about that.

          Everyone completely ignores or twist his statements about the first two clues. And then there’s the gal that’s still looking in Texas.

          Looks like some folks are going to be upset no matter what.

        • Hi Goofy: I definitely understand — it’s another instance of “damned-if-you-do, damned-if-you-don’t”. People are gonna believe what they want a believe, and when inconvenient facts rear their ugly head, there’s always the “85%” comment to fall back on, or the “I reserve the right to be wrong once in a while.”

          The circle-folks perplex me because there is really no support for this theory in the poem. Particularly so after he said “no” point-blank to the question of “switching back” or “making a loop” at the bookstore in Taos. If it weren’t for Forrest quoting the stanza from T.S. Eliot’s “Little Gidding,” who would be forcing circular solves (whether in the poem or BOTG)?

          The latest craze seems to be multi-blaze enthusiasts — another head-scratcher for me. Last I checked it wasn’t “If you’ve been wise and found the blazes” or “If you’ve been wise and found a blaze”. Forrest cautions against oversimplifying the clues; but apparently he needs to warn against overcomplicating them too.

          • Well Zap, maybe I’m wrong but I seem to remember discussing the first clue thing years ago when he said the first clue was WWWH. I think Dal has also posted that he said the first clue was WWWH years ago.

            We have all kinds of ideas, I forgot when I replied about all of a sudden we have multiple blazes. We also have the multiple layers folks, so you have to solve each layer to get to the next, and the next, and the next………

            It seems like folks don’t actually want to discuss the pros and cons of an idea anymore. They just throw out some bizarre statement about how they magically figured something out without giving any reasoning at all. But they are sure they are correct and on there way to get the treasure. I don’t know why they bother posting. I guess they don’t see how silly they sound.

            It seems like all that is discussed anymore is silly bets and hat eating.

          • Given the exuberance that is being exhibited over this news that wwwh is first clue, the inevitable “but the first stanza has a hint” conversation is going to be intolerable.

          • Hi Goofy….you bring in a very valid point.

            “It seems like folks don’t actually want to discuss the pros and cons of an idea anymore. ”

            This is the gay area that we all seem to reside in at times. I know I do, because I won’t reveal specific information related to my solution.

            But just so I don’t stay on that side of the fence….here is a little bit of imagination that I think is relevant…..

            I’ve found that my region I am searching fits squarely with Stanza #1, but leads me to understand the clues that follow.

            Do I honestly think I have figured out the first four clues? Yes.

            Are they right? They seem to be, as they have not been debunked.

            I also honestly believe that Stanza #1 holds a key word, but not the key word. I have found that there is a word that unlocks a location that also fits well with Stanza #1 and could very well unlock the TC location……to a area that would need a search area of about 50 ft.

            Granted, I don’t have the chest yet, but, it seems clear that one could have a positive or negative viewpoint with any solution, but clearly won’t know if it is correct, without atempting a BOTG effort.

            Good luck to you.

          • Zap –

            I am a single Blaze but i understand the 2 blaze idea. I think its Tim’s idea. In the poem by the time you reach the word Blaze you have passed a Blaze. The description is past tense. So in the poem a Blaze proceeds the wird Blaze.

            Beyond that i am nit following the case for multiples.

            Lugnutz

          • Hi Lugnutz……I’m not quite sure I was the originator of more than one blaze, but I do have this scenario in my mind that I cannot shake.

            The poem itself is a set of directions and places one needs to go in order to complete the trek.

            Can that be a “blaze” in itself? It could be.

            But more instinctively, the poem asks us, “if you’ve found the blaze”…thus signifying that the the seeker, if arriving at this place in their trek, they should have found the blaze already.

            Now, could the blaze be a set of “trail markers” (blaze) that FF created (“now I’m weak”) while creating the path as it is listed int he poem?

            If so, then I would imagine that there could very well be two blazes….the poem itself with the direct path you are to take, and a secondary blaze that could be seen along the path that the seeker is taking.

            Did I say that correctly? :o)

            In summary:

            two blazes – one is the poem and the other is a specifically marked path (not geological related) that can be seen along the poem path’s directions.

            Again, I’m insane, crazy, weird, and pretty much out of my mind….so take what I say at your own expense!

            :o)

            Remember – I’m also the one to think there are eleven clues in the poem that will lead you to the TC. Meaning I believe “tarry scant” leads one to the treasure and “looking down” leads one to the treasure. Hints leads to clues, clues lead to the treasure……both of these clues clearly have definitive structure and both include direction….direction is what will lead you to the TC, because they are specific in context as related to the TC.

            Good luck to you and be safe out there.

          • Hi Goofy;

            I am more than happy to discuss my multiple Blazes theory – and multiple everything theory.

            If you look at LCM’s quotes. The quote that is most repeated, in various dorms is the one where Forrest says to read the book, and then to read the poem over, and over and over again, and then to go back to the book to look for hints. Why has Forrest said this so many times, in so many different ways? My interpretation is that reading the poem over and over and over forces stanza #6 into stanza #1. The “In the wood” flows into “In there”…almost naturally. Stanza #5, to me, seems to flow into stanza #5.

            Stanza #5 asks a question. The only line in the poem to do so. Every riddle that I have ever read started with a question…Why not this riddle? Move stanzas #5 and #6 to above stanza #1, and the poem, at least to me makes a lot of sense. Doing this now makes “If you’ve been wise and found the blaze, Look quickly down, your quest to cease, But tarry scant with marvel gaze, Just take the chest and go in peace” the last sentence of the poem. To me this makes sense.

            Id, after going through the poem, as I have laid it out, what do you do IF you have not found Indulgence? Forrest has answered this question. Forrest has said: ““If you don’t know where it is, go back to the first clue.” f This, to me, says to go back to, “So why is it that I must go and leave my trove for all to seek? (Clue #1) I now must re-read (and find new definitions (locations) for such things as wwwh, canyon down, hoB…and yes a new blaze.

            I have to “re-solve” the poem as many times as it takes to find indulgence, or to exhaust EVERY possibility in my search area…and then find a new area if necessary.

            The first reading (solve) leads me to a blaze that is a prominent geographical land feature. I searched EVERYWHERE around this area, no TC. Back to the poem…starting at the base of this land feature. The next reading (solve) took me to a waterfall – same story. Subsequent solves have disclosed three more blazes, all have something in common. A coincidence? Conformation Bias? Possible, but I do not think so. Am I right? Who knows? But, for now, I think that I now understand why Forrest said to read the poem over and over and over,and why he said that if you can not find it, go back to the first clue.

            To the best of my knowledge, Forrest has NEVER said that the first clue is wwwh. I think that believing that he has said this is a mistake.

            You asked me to support my theory, I hope that I have presented (at least) a logical explanation. JDA

          • IMO JDA – you are “messing with the poem” after FF told us not to.

            IMO – you are incorrect in doing such manipulation to the words.

            You have changed the poem from the original..

            Cheers!

          • JD –

            F said WWH is the first clue.
            He said it in 2013 and loco published a link to it last night. Thats why we are talking about it.

            There is no longer any doubt that its the firat clue.

            Lugnutz

          • If I’m understanding you correctly, your first solve took you to the geographic feature, then you applied the clues again, starting from that feature and it led you to a waterfall, then you applied the clues again starting from the waterfall?

            If I’m understanding this correctly, I don’t see how wwwh would be able to be reapplied starting from the geographic feature, but maybe that’s something unsaid in your solve and it actually does. Personally, I think it’s a creative, though probably over-complicated way of looking at the poem.

            If I’m understanding this wrong, and you’re just saying solve/test-botg/discard and rinse/repeat, would you mind sharing some more details about your geographic feature (nearest city or something)? I have a solve with a blaze kind of like that and if the area has been searched, I’d really appreciate being able to save myself a trip.

          • I meant stanza #5 flows into stanza #6.
            Also a typo Forms not dorms – sorry. JDA

          • Jake;

            If you are implying that I am divulging too much, you MAY be right. Most people pay little attention to what I have to say though, and what I say MAY open up new ways of thinking. Who knows? JDA

          • Jake;

            All I am really saying is that if one solve doesn’t work – try another – Nothing new here. I also said that one solve related to a waterfall – nothing new here either. JDA

          • Fmc

            You read it correctly the first time (your first paragraph). Solve #1 = the geographic feature. Solve #2 starts at the same geographic feature.

            Sorry, I have already given away more than I should have. Once I run out of solves (or find Indulgence) in this general area, I will divulge more. Until then, best of luck in your search and TRY to STAY SAFE. JDA

          • It’s amazing there’s still a discussion about the first clue. FF said it clearly.

            It’s not the first clue that’s the hard part….

      • Furthermore, this old news wisdom seems to have evaded JCM’s otherwise rather thorough research, and yet you never chimed in to point out the glaring omission.

        • If this is “old news” why does it say: “Is the first clue “Begin it where warm waters halt” ?”
          at the top of every nine clues post?

          • It has never been verified on this site until now or discussed by folks that seem to “know” by revealing what Loco discovered.

    • Loco,
      This is the first time I heard of this recording… [ I’ma gonna blame CH on this one. I mean, that is his turf and he was sleeping on the job!! ] [ That’s my story and I’m sticking with it ].
      What this also confirms, from early on in the challenge, about the two first clues comment[s], that the same folks who deciphered the first two clues actually went right by all the other clues ‘and’ the chest.
      If we think about that, adding the 500′ foot comment[s]… it is interesting because… it seems to place the clues in a relativity smaller area, than miles apart. And confirmed again later, in another recording; “it’s not a matter of trying, it’s a matter of thinking. Sure, I mean people figured the first couple of clues and unfortunately walked past the treasure chest.”
      You have to wonder if those are the same folks that could have been within 200′ as well?
      But, now we’re back to the age old question, All the information to find the chest is in the poem [ as you pointed out… ] Then shouldn’t the poem tell us which wwwh that is, out of all the possible [many] wwwh within the RM’s? [no throwing darts].
      The other thing that still needs pondering is why [even early on] folks who were at the correct location didn’t seem to know they had the correct first two clues.
      And we’re right back to, If they told fenn the clues and where they were and told fenn their process of the solve… How did they not know -?- especially if “all the information… is in the poem”
      That is very interesting to think about… Being able to decipher a clue from the poems information and not know you actually have the correct decipher. [ of course, common sense dictates until the job is done we’ll “not know” for a fact, we have it all correct.] but the poem seemingly must take that guess work out of the first two, to a more positive understanding, than a lucky guess of all the possible locations of the first clue.
      What’s missing?

      Thanks for posting this recording [and its actual confirmation ] Now, maybe we can have some discussion on those “WhatIF,” and not so much the egotestical posting that, anyone knows anything.

      Things still pondering;
      Certainty beforehand…
      Important possibility…
      Nail down the first clue… because apparently, even being on site doesn’t help by ~just having boots on the ground ~or~ having “indicated,” “decipher,” “figure the first couple of clues,” ~And now maybe, as many as the first four clues… Needs more hammering.

      LOL, while others will toot their golden horns, are floating their helium heads in the clouds, and will be bragging how they knew it all along BS … I have to laugh, when they still come up empty handed.

      • Yup Seeker,
        I knew it all along & you missed the boat cause you were at the dock asking yourself, what if this isn’t the right boat & it has a hole in the hull?

        What if this cement cinder block can float with it tied around my ankle?

        What if all the 9 clues are in stanzas 2, 3 & 4.
        Done deal.

        • You wouldn’t know a “fact” if it hit you in the head with that cement block… that goes for any and all when attempting to interpret the poem.
          Ya whine you can’t understand my post, and ideas, claim I “missed the boat” simply because i’m capable of looking at the poem from all angles?
          lol… I posted a theory on this site that deals with WWWH as the first clue. I have also posted other possible interpretation as well.

          The problem is Sherlock, Just knowing of and deciphering the first clue doesn’t seem to have any effect … Ya, know! that critical clue we need to “nail down or don’t go…”

          So, while you’re doing your little happy dance, that you are so brilliant and knew for a fact ~”I knew it all along”… maybe take you nose out of your own butt and ask… Why am I so stupid that I knew first clue and come back empty handed ?? each and every time.

          LOL… So you had a 50 / 50 chance of being correct to what the “first clue” in the poem is [ first stanza or begin it where ]. Yeah for you! Edgar Cayce must be rolling in his grave at your prediction.

          Maybe you can tell the searchers who actually “deciphered” that clue, on site/location, walk by all the other clues and the chest itself… what they did wrong about “nailing that first clue down”

          Hmmm could it be something from stanza 1 or any other stanza that must be understood to; know why the heck “deciphered the first clues” “figured the for couple clues” is a must to understand or stay home?

          Don’t worry about chatting about that Jack. You just have fun at you’re little ego party… Ya got plenty of egotesticles company here you can invite. All those other ‘know it all’s’ that spout, I’m a member of the first two clues club, or I’m a member of the 500 or 200′ club or even the one’s who claimed to know for a fact, within 12′ and 3’…

          lol… what a jamoke.

          • Hi Seeker…..you may scoff now…..but in truth….you really don’t know what other searchers have decided upon or have as a solution. Some could very well be within the 500 ft of “where they think the treasure lies”.

            That doesn’t make them wrong…..until they don’t go home with the TC.

            IMO – you could be including me in those groups of people – although I really don’t know or care – but I have a solve that puts me into a small 50 ft radius to search.

            Am I being to egotistical as you have stated? No I am not. I’m excited and pretty happy I could even get to a point like this, that gives me credence to look.

            I’ve said this before….you should be happy for me. But apparently, this information “scares you” enough to go off an denounce those seekers for their efforts. Why? Afraid they will find the chest before you get to your final resting place you have decided upon?

            That is what I am observing.

            You should be happy for others that they have achieved that level of thinking. I am.

            In fact – if I am not the one that succeeds, then it just wasn’t meant to be, huh? Being bitter of others and their efforts is not what FF intended for anyone or anybody.

            Cheers to you and best of luck!

          • I love it Seeker LOL hahahaha.
            I’m still laughing & I cannot stop.
            Call 911 for me.

            Fact: BIWWWH is the 1st clue & you didn’t have it until your nemesis posted it & I had it all along – FACT.

            Now that we know this we should be able to build on it in a more straightforward fashion.

            There’s no location in the poem.
            It would seem that his statement about the poem being straightforward (which he replied to you & posted in this solar system & wiffed by you) is exactly that – straight forward.

            I think it’s safe to say my list of the 9 clues is very logical & you can now discard certain stanzas when it comes to clues.

            There are hints in some but no clues.

            You will have to do some digging as I have to find the children that figured the 1st 2 clues & went by the other 7. I have posted it here in 2015 but you were too busy on the what ifs.

            Hear me all & listen good.
            Especially you F.
            The blaze is the last clue & the treasure is right below it.

            What if i am right again?

          • BTW Seeker: “LOL… So you had a 50 / 50 chance of being correct to what the “first clue” in the poem is”

            How could it be 50 / 50 when it’s risky to discount any words in the poem.
            One word or letter could have been the 1st clue according to you & others.

            How many letters in the poem again?

            Keep putting all your chips down on every number on the roulette table.

          • Agreed, unless you have found the chest you have not missed any boat. Using only BIWWWH as your starting point will lead to 100+ searches. F wanted us to think and just using BIWWH only as a starting point requires no thinking at all. More is needed even if this is the first clue.

      • Seeker;

        I would like to take a stab at answering your questions. I have absolutely no idea as to whether I am right or wrong, but will take a stab anyway.

        You state, “What this also confirms, from early on in the challenge, about the two first clues comment[s], that the same folks who deciphered the first two clues actually went right by all the other clues ‘and’ the chest.
        If we think about that, adding the 500′ foot comment[s]… it is interesting because… it seems to place the clues in a relativity smaller area, than miles apart. And confirmed again later, in another recording; “it’s not a matter of trying, it’s a matter of thinking. Sure, I mean people figured the first couple of clues and unfortunately walked past the treasure chest.”
        You have to wonder if those are the same folks that could have been within 200′ as well?
        But, now we’re back to the age old question, All the information to find the chest is in the poem [ as you pointed out… ] Then shouldn’t the poem tell us which wwwh that is, out of all the possible [many] wwwh within the RM’s? [no throwing darts].”

        Let’s look your question: ” Then shouldn’t the poem tell us which wwwh that is, out of all the possible [many] wwwh within the RM’s? [no throwing darts].”

        My answer is that it does, in stanza #6 – “So hear me all and listen good, Your efforts will be worth the cold, If you are brave and in the wood I give you title to the gold.”

        “So hear me all, and listen good” To me Forrest is calling attention to the searcher – Hey buddy, pay attention, what I am about to say is important.”…
        “Your efforts will be worth the cold,”
        To me, this line tells the searcher to look in the mountains, where it is cold(er) than in the valley below.
        Oh great, he has already told us that it is in the Rocky Mountains – how is this a help?
        “So where in the “mountains” should we look?
        “If you are brave. and in the wood..” Could this be an indicator? I think that it is. Could “In the wood” refer to a Forest? – Possibly.
        A Google search of National Forests in the 4 states reveals that there are 44. How can we narrow the list down? “If you are brave…Could this refer to a Native American? A possibility. The National Forests within the 4 listed states, that relate to Native Americans are as follows:
        Apache-Sitgreaves – NM
        Arapaho – CO
        Flathead – Montana
        Kootenai – Montana
        Medicine Bow – WY
        Shoshone – WY
        Unita-Wasatche-Cache – WY
        Uncompahge – CO

        IF, “If you are brave and in the wood…” = Indulgence is in a National Forest that relates to a Native American, we have narrowed down the search area quite a bit. down to eight.
        Apache-Sitgreaves can be eliminated, too far south –
        Medacine Bow is Native American related, but not a tribe – some might chose to eliminate it also – down to 6.
        I learned that “The Wood” has a very obscure meaning that CAN point to a geographical area somewhere in Wyoming so this narrowed my search down to:
        Medicine Bow – WY
        Shoshone – WY
        Unita-Wasatche-Cache – WY

        So, back to your question: ” Then shouldn’t the poem tell us which wwwh that is, out of all the possible [many] wwwh within the RM’s? [no throwing darts].”

        Having narrowed the search area down somewhat, a bit of research, and I was able to find a wwwh in one of the three listed National Forests in WY.. Later clues helped me confirm that, I THINK, I have picked the correct wwwh – led there by the poem. Am I correcty? I do not YET have the chest, so I can not say for sure… But, what do I know? Probably NADA – JDA

        • Here’s a dart that hits the target area.
          http://dalneitzel.com/2017/02/08/forrest-gets-mail-13/
          How hard was it to write the poem and not give the location away?
          “It was not hard at all. I just had to stay focused.”

          Aint no location in the poem….
          Age old question goes too far back & statements have changed since then.
          The latest statements override the older ones if you haven’t noticed.

          What he said years ago doesn’t necessarily work today.

          • Jake if you want to discard his statements that’s fine. Lots of folks discard any statement he made that disagrees with their solution. I don’t believe the new statements override the old ones. If you are correct that means he is lying to mislead us. If he’s doing that he could be lying about anything. If that is the case perhaps the old statements were true and the new ones are a lie, which would make more sense. In my opinion, if he has lied to us the whole thing is probably a scam and only a fool would participate.

            Like he said in the interview he’s not going to give us any information that leads to the chest. But he doesn’t mind telling us where it’s not. He seems to be telling us how to solve the poem not where the chest is.

            So I try to make everything he has said to be true when coming up with a way to solve the poem.

          • I am not saying he is lying about anything.
            I am stating a fact of nature when it comes to time.

            What you said yesterday may not be true today although it was in your mind yesterday.

            Get it?

            The fact that time is the one constant tells us that things change as the tiny sands drip from the bottle neck.

            If you do not change with them, then you are stuck in the past.
            Knowing what happened in the past is very important to not repeat the bad, but our paths lie in the future & the immediate past can help us in the immediate future.

          • @ G_O_G: “So I try to make everything he has said to be true when coming up with a way to solve the poem.”

            Agreed, 100%. I don’t see anyone ever developing the correct solution without doing just that…..thus, all the questions have to be answered!! 🙂

          • Goofy,
            Agree with you overall.
            We just can’t dismiss older comments as no longer any good because of later comments. We need to find the middle ground that helps understand why both comments are true.
            Example, Need to nail down the first clue or stay home vs. you won’t know if you have the first clue correct until the chest is found vs. warning the path would not be direct without knowing the first clue, but certain beforehand to the one that does… and yet when fenn has stated the first couple clues were told to him as “deciphered” and “figured out” Those searcher walked by everything, apparently having no clue they did, while more are doing the same as ‘time’ progresses.

            lol… if we dismiss older comments for convenience, we might has well throw away any part of the poem we don’t think we need or might be usable, and ignore fenn’s comments; all the words we’re deliberate, risky to discount them, or you can’t ignore any of the nouns in that poem etc.

            Or my favorite; The blueprint is challenging so the treasure may be located by the one who can best adjust. To illustrate my point go to YouTube – Smarter …

            Just ramblings and rumblings from the
            Adjustment Bureau.

          • Seeker I agree with a lot of what you said. One of the reasons folks walked past the clues could be because they had predetermined solutions and missed what is right in front of them. And like you said, his other statements seem to indicate the remaining clues are in a relatively small area.

            He has said multiple times he’s not going to say anything that will lead us to the treasure. So what is he telling us? To me he seems to be hinting to us how to solve the poem not where the treasure is.

            Some of his statements seem to be in conflict with one another. Like no specialized knowledge is required. But then he says a comprehensive knowledge of geography might help. So apparently having a comprehensive knowledge of geography is not specialized.

            Many folks take his 85% statement to mean he is only telling the truth 85% of the time. He says people are taking that statement wrong by stretching a tangent in Scrapbook 155. Fenn also made an interesting comment to ColoKid in that scrapbook.

            He advises new searchers to look for the clues in the poem and try to marry them to a place on a map. And says the longer one thinks about the search the more they complicate the problem. But then he tells us the little girl in India, boy from Waxahatchee, or Arab kid from Marrakech cannot get closer than the first two clues using map of the US Rocky Mountains.

            There are many more examples; I believe if we can make all of his statements true without stretching a tangent we will be much further along in understanding how to solve the poem.

          • Looks like I missed one – thought it was in Idaho, but see some in Montana. JDA

          • If you read my whole post, you will see that I list 44 National Forests, then narrow it down to the four states, and then narrow it down to Wyoming. There are no Utes nor a Ute National Park in Wyoming. There are Ute Indians in Colorado, and Utah, but no Ute National Forest. If you are going to comment, please read the original post, and then post with something that is appropriate. Shooting from the hip will all too often result in a misfire. Just my biased opinion. JDA

        • Did you see the sleeping Indian above a horse and rider by sheep mountain and the , hic (pun) gross venter, lol, landslide? Gotta run just thought it looks like the cigar Indian and the boundary of bridger-teton natl Forest (hob)

    • Really nice work Loco. I’ve been in the WWWH is the first clue camp for a while now, but started second-guessing myself after my first search (6 days) in late-Spring yielded no results though I remain convinced I am in the correct search area.

      And coincidentally, I actually head out again later this morning with my daughter to continue. The plan is to focus on 2 locations in the search area I was unable to get to before (snow) and show her what I consider to be, “in a word”, the blaze, which I have already shared with Forrest. It has a beautiful view of the countryside below. I looked long and hard around, under, and near it, etc, but no results.

      Had a great time though and saw a lot of wildlife including wild turkey, rabbit, AND a lot of fresh bear scat! The next day I came across momma bear and 2 baby bears. For those unaware, bears can run uphill remarkably well (as witnessed) and not so good downhill according to my Boy Scout training from days long past.

      I won’t be able to search everyday this time due to family commitments, but we plan to be here for 2 weeks.

      Nevertheless, thank you again for the find Loco.

      Pinatubocharlie

    • ….AND THE PLOT THICKENS!!

      i’m so glad I’ve always used my WWWH as my first clue….looks like I have saved myself many years of struggle.

      Good luck to all.

      • Hello Tim. I’d like to look at it as not being many years of struggle, but new adventures along the way.

      • (Second try.) I’d like to look at it as not many years of struggle, but new adventures along the way.

        • Hi pd…..I say “struggle” because if others were like me, I struggled over many clues to define what they mean as it pertains to the poem.

          I struggled with definitions and obscurity within the definitions.

          But in the long run, I realized that I was not keeping it simple, thus changed my way of thinking and how I apply it to a solution.

          Things did change for me. Simplifying the struggle to a relazing look or apply an easy going ponder…..helped me greatly.

          I now agree with FF….”why didn’t I think of that” has such an impact on the correct solve.

          Cheers!

          • Hello Tim. It sounds you’re pretty confident with your solve. When will you be heading out?

          • Hi pd….confidence is subjective, based upon the words of other bloggers.

            I do like my solution.

            I’ve been to the area twice now….with the last time the past month.

            But I didn’t get a chance to complete a search of the whole area.

            I’ll go again…jsut don’t know when.

    • Someone unfamiliar with your poem receives a message that says “meet me where warm waters halt, somewhere in the mountains north of Santa Fe”. Would they be able to work out where to go? If they can’t, would they need the whole poem, another stanza, or just a line or word to help them on their way? ~Phil Bayman

      There are a few words in the poem that are not useful in finding the treasure Phil, but it is risky to discount any of them. You over simplify the clues. There are many places in the Rocky Mountains where warm waters halt, and nearly all of them are north of Santa Fe. Look at the big picture, there are no short cuts. f

      Does knowing that wwwh it’s the first clue get you closer to the chest? apparently not. Does knowing what wwwh means get you closer to the chest? Well going by the answer above to Phil it seems that it doesn’t help either. What am I missing?

      • Hey Oz10.

        You wrote:

        “Does knowing that wwwh it’s the first clue get you closer to the chest? apparently not. Does knowing what wwwh means get you closer to the chest? Well going by the answer above to Phil it seems that it doesn’t help either. What am I missing?”

        A. I agree…..it does get you started though.

        B. I disagree, because I think that location is a key to find the path one needs to take.

        If you think you are missing something, you probably are. My WWWH was stumbled upon while having BOTG. Does that mean that is the only way to find it? I think so.

        Is my WWWH the correct WWWH?…I hope, because I want Jake to have a “munch date” with a hat?!

        :o)

      • And a very merry early Christmas for you Loco.
        I can still hear the solves shattering around the globe.

        Oh that was & is a great find.

        I’m not downplaying this one bit.
        It shoves the 1st stanza clue holders in a fit not to be.
        Ya, they were so confident but yet so fragile & your post cracked the backbone of them.

        Confirmation is key.

        • Jake,

          WWWH, IMO……has nothing to do with water. Being an avid student of Indian proverbs, (thanks to The Flyer), they often identify a ‘specific’ and or ‘unique’ meaning to a multitude of subjects.

          I don’t believe water ‘halting’ is even connected with the true nature of water. If my understanding of the term is correct; warm water halts at the…..’Truth.’

          SL

          • Hi SL….you echo my WWWH – “edge of civilization”.

            Thanks!

            Welcome to Difficulty-land!

          • SL,
            You have a lot to offer with your internet research & posting links for possibles.

            If water has nothing to do with the poem or WWWH I will eat my hat.

            Be a student of yourself & not others.

          • Jake,

            Have always been a student and I believe that I always will be.

            Appreciate the compliment and your preferred WWWH interpretation as well.

            SL

          • It’s not my preferred interpretation of WWWH SL.
            Did you listen to the audio Loco has provided?

            I’m not sure you’re following what has happened lately.
            It’s a fact that WWWH is the 1st clue & when you realize that you will stop your nonsense, maybe. I hope.

          • pdenver,
            Are you really trying to tell me that WWWH is about the Cuban Missile Crisis?

            Are you serious?

            Thanks for the insight but I will drop & run from this.

          • I am not, Jake. I don’t know how else to give an example of other possible “where warm waters halt” might mean other than related temperatures of creeks/rivers, etc.. Perhaps relationships of people of war, and those laid to rest might help? “Leave each other alone.” Just a thought.

          • I am totally lost in your example of WWWH pdenver in your link to the Cuban thing,’

            I’m sure you can do better than that.

            JFK would be proud though.

          • Jake, “The Thrill of the Chase,” page 100, in part:

            ‘It is more than sad to me, not just that the French soldiers are dead and buried, but that no one knows where they are or even who they were. No one is crying now that a half a century has passed.’

          • The point in this message from F is taken with sincere gravity.

            It doesn’t matter whether they were french or spanish or whatever.
            They were human beings doing what they were forced or told what to do.

            Regardless of there situation, big Gov back then & now dictates our lives & unfortunately we have no other choice to their enforcement of what they think is best for us & their wallets & we are just pawns in their game of chess playing with our lives.

            Time only heals so much & time will repeat itself again & again.

          • Hate to jump in here and probably shouldn’t, to late. It is waters not water, plural. So pdenver I understand your comparison and agree as well as SL’s. The correct location will have MANY different ways of understanding warm waters at the same place. And this is in my opinion.

          • Hi Jake – I know you spend a lot of time working on clues but do you have a job that requires you to work for a living? I’m asking because I can’t imagine a job where you can post 50+ times a day and still be productive.

          • When you answer my question I will answer yours.

            Got to give a little.

            Hi 🙂
            Fake smile inserted.

          • Hi Jake – I’m not going to give you the answers. You would hate yourself if you didn’t figure it out.

            Put forth some effort Jake. Don’t expect things to be handed to you.

          • You can do yourself as well seeing you come here with what you think you know & don’t get into any detail about it.

            You cant answer a simple question?
            You got nothing to offer.

          • HMA –

            You misunserstand the question.
            Jake is not asking you where warm waters halt.
            He asking you where YOU think they halt.
            Huge difference.
            I think there are only a handful of people that dont share where they are searching. Yiu and Zap are 2.

            Zap’s unwillingness to share that drive me so mad I gad to find all the places where BTFTW occurs in the search area and then mount searches.

            I ask you again.
            Why do you come here if not to discuss your ideas? You dont need our info. You already know where the TC is located. You dont offer any of your own. Whats the point? To feel like youre better than me? Or smarter than Jake?

            Why???
            Lugnutz

          • Hi Jake – I have plenty of answers and have put forth the effort. I will take this as my cue to exit.

            Good luck Jake.

          • OK Alsetenash,
            You’ve convinced me to tone it down.
            I feel I have the need to clarify things & Hma did not answer the Q.
            A simple Q at that.

            He’s a narb for doing that.

          • Lug, are you looking in Wyoming? I’m dying to share a map I have found….

          • Bob –

            I have gold stars in each of the 4 states.
            I ahve been trying to write a blog post but I will just aens my maps to Dal so folks can diacuss with me.

            In WY i prefer the Shoahoe area. I have some strong feelings about tbe Kirwin area.

            Lugnutz

          • Lugnutz: since you saw fit to express outrage at my unwillingness to share the specifics of my solution, and simultaneously impune HMA for his similar recalcitrance, a response to this absurd attitude is warranted. Please understand: we are not in your employ, therefore YOU aren’t entitled to diddly squat from us or any other searcher for that matter. HoD isn’t a charity. People are entitled to share what they want and conceal what they feel they must. That you have focused your ire on the two of us I suppose should be taken as a compliment. But neither of us is ever going to tell you our WWWH for the very reason that we are 100% convinced it’s the same as Forrest’s. I’ve spent thousands of hours on the Chase and I don’t just give away intellectual property.

          • Zap –

            Youre avoiding the question i posed to HMA.
            Why come here?
            You dont need anything from us, yiu know where it is.
            You dont contribute to helping us find the TC.
            Do you come here to feel smarter than us?

            Why do you come here?

            Second question.
            Why dont you have the treasure?

            Lugnutz

          • Zap –

            Heres more.
            Im helping you whether you believe it or not.
            Couple more questions related to your solve.
            Did he fly?
            Anyone with him?
            Where did he land?
            Did he own a plane capable of flying that far on a tank of gogo juice?
            Where did he refuel?
            Are you familiar with how long a pilot must wait before he can takeoff after landing to refuel?
            What makes the area of the second airport so much more signifigant than the area of the layover?

            Lugnutz

          • IMO – if your WWWH is in Montana, then you may very well have a correct answer.

            Like you….I have a WWWH that has a direct connection to FF.

            Does yours?

          • I hope I didn’t shoot my own foot……*sighs*……

            That is all I will say moving forward.

            *locks lips*

            ;o)

          • Tim, (zosorocks1):

            Your “echo” shares a special memory!

            He spent his boyhood “learning where the edge is from fishing West Yellowstone.”

            More ‘spiritual’ than one might relate.

            SL

        • Jake,

          Although I didn’t listen to the ‘verbal’ NZ Podcast, provided above, I had, in fact read much of the transcript from it awhile back, and yes, did understand the BIWWWH confirmation that was provided directly by The Flyer at THAT time.

          http://forrestfenntreasure.com/ForrestFennTreasure/where-warm-waters-halt/

          I sincerely feel that in your haste; the comment made by you relating to”nonsense” was not only a premature one, but a disappointment coming from someone whom I’ve come to admire and appreciate.

          Best of luck to you, my friend.

          SL

          • SL,
            I appreciate your sincere submission.
            My haste is only driven by others postings so feel free to ignore them.

            We reap what we sow & what we sow becomes a tangled thorny mess at times.

            Don’t be disappointed what was said by me but what you have done.
            We can only be judged by what we have done positively & negatively in our time by our maker only.

            Keep in mind it’s better to speak your mind as you do here.

        • Jake, for me it does not change my mind about the first stanza only f’s definition of a clue.

  57. Thank you lobo. I’ve been involved since 2014 and thought i had turned over every rock on interviews. I’m adding another f quote during this lively discussion on wwwh. MW July 2016, in answer to a question from Phil. “There are a few words in the poem that are not useful in finding the treasure Phil, but it is risky to discount any of them. You over simplify the clues. There are many places in the Rocky Mountains where warm waters halt, and nearly all of them are north of Santa Fe. Look at the big picture, there are no shortcuts”.

    • And add (from 4/17/17) –

      “Every word is placed in there strategically, and you can’t ignore any of the nouns in that poem.” f

      JAKe

  58. After eliminating other possibilities, I relate the term “put in” with gardening; planting something.

    SL

  59. LOL, thanks to all who appreciate my little contribution to the discussion!

    Goofy, as Jake pointed out, it is just confirmation. I chose to post it on the Nine Clues because of the very question at the top which Randawg pointe out. Everyone has had different ‘1st clues’ since day one, and argued vehemently that they were correct. Now, we KNOW what is fact. I was just lightly twisting your tail that the podcast was not in the Media Page. Had it been, this would have all been avoided years ago. I have long agreed about the wash, rinse, repeat of the discussions….if ya want to change directions, ya have to apply something that shifts the direction!

    Old Yeller, thanks for weighing in. Great to see that we still have the same questions, about the same aspects…..keep asking them!! If the b*tchin’ starts to overwhelm ya(which I highly doubt), get my email addy from Goofy. 🙂

    Jake, Jake, Jake……I give ya a little boost here. But don’t let it go to yer head. You guessed correctly about what the first clue was, but I have serious concerns about the rest of your interpretations, based upon what you have exposed……Good Luck to You, though!!!!……loco 🙂

    • This aint no little boost Loco.
      If you don’t have the 1st clue you got nothing.

      I know it’s a whole new ball game to marry this clue to a place.
      But having this is being halfway there.

      I am always concerned what others say & do & that goes for myself & my concerning ways but we have to take a dip here & there.

      If we never dip we never get the grip.

      • Well, we are now one half of certainty of an 11% piece of the nine clues, that will guide towards the location of the chest. It’s a good start.

        • Alsetenash,
          Its not 11%.
          There’s 2 ways you can look at it.
          F said if you don’t got the 1st clue you got nothing.
          If you got the 1st clue you’re more than half way to the treasure.

          My cup is more than half full.

          • This just my opinion:

            Jake, I am not wrong with my math numbers. There are 9 clues and BIWWWH is 1 of 9 .Identifying what word(s) are clues is as important equal to that of what the clue(s) mean; some clues you can also add speculation that they are of a specific where somewhere. They can be places, things, visual descriptions etc.

            Just confirming a clue as a clue is only half the riddle of a clue. This wwwh clue , of its essence, is said to take you halfway there. 1 of 9 ( rounded) is 11% pertaining to counting being 1 of 9. Being said,as it was, that you are halfway there when you know what the first clue is and the where it is.This may be translated as being 50% in value for being at the right area to start botg. As it appears in this now, Jake, you ( me also) are half way to the half way. We are not confirmed of the other half value of the clue as of yet ( location, what it means etc) . IMO . WWWH has always been the first clue to me. so this confirmation doesn’t change anything for me. Confirmation is one part of the clue but I am not at all sure I have found the right meaning or location of this clue. Same as you, I know only one half of one thing confirmed about WWWH and that is that it is a clue. Nothing to climb a mountain with a speaker phone about for me.

      • I get the impression that you are not as dissimilar to seeker and I as you portray.

          • Jake. LOL, when I began composing, and got a phone call, your post wasn’t present!

          • Ok good, because “I have no idea” as for an answer to the question lol 🙂

          • I was calling you Loco.
            I will try again.
            Thanks again for blowing the blog up.
            & thanks for cross circuiting Seekers brain & all those who think the 1st clue was in the 1st stanza.

            EPIC!

      • Hi Jake – Even if WWWH is the first clue, which by now sounds like it is, isn’t going to help searchers figure out where the correct starting spot begins. My beginning is still the same even with the new revelation.

        • You don’t listen well Hma.
          It’s not a revelation.
          It’s a confirmation.
          BIWWWH is the 1st clue & you can stick it where you like.

          • Hi Jake – Call it what you want. You still have to figure out where to begin and that requires the right kind of thinking and logic. Good luck.

          • True Hma,
            I have pasted my WWWH here many times.
            So where is your WWWH?

            Or are you too paranoid to let us in your secret 1st clue?

            I have given all my clues married to places here.

          • Hi Jake – I’m not paranoid. If you ever do figure out the correct answer I can guarantee you that you won’t be sharing it with others. Anyone who has figured it out isn’t going to give the answer either.

          • why? don’t you think still there is something to the start: As I have gone alone in there

        • HMA, Do you believe there is a clue (or hint if you prefer) in the poem that directs you to the starting place?
          (other than WWWH or HoB).

          • Quakrspecl- thank you so much…. so sincerely. I can not verbalized enough on this blog. Xo.

    • First…I’ll say that Loco is one of the steady as she goes members of the search community. The early days were not so different as now…just more fun conversations going on. Thanks for posting the find of the year Loco ! It does clear some things up…but still a lot of muddy water left to go.
      Even knowing that the first clue is BIWWWH still does not negate the importance of ACTUALLY getting it right. The argument still stands as to how one deciphers the poem to nail down that correct first clue location. It is a location. The same argument stands as to what a hint is and what a clue is. Fenn has always…and still does claim that all the info is in the poem.

    • Ain’t the B*** that bugs me Loco. It’s the lack of reasoning to the B***… just saying ~ “imo” doesn’t give reasoning or provoke discussions. To actually have a discussion there needs to be more than, “I know” or I’ll eat my hat if not true.

      The lack of discussions for a with arguments presented, for or against, has pushed away many who use to comment and actually talked about the poem. [ I think I can say, you haven’t been posting as much as in prior years and might be one of the reason you haven’t ][ if not, please correct me ].

      We don’t need to agree on anything… but I miss the days when many use to just chat about it all. And not the overwhelming egotesticle and egotyipical BS… That, it really gets boring quickly…

      Good catch on that recording. LOL.. to bad ya had to go halfway around the world to hear the only factual / direct quote about what the first clue is. { how the heck did we [ speaking you and I only ] missed it? } Did you hack into a NASA satellite to pull that out the the proverbial rabbit hat?

      • “The lack of discussions for a with arguments presented, for or against, has pushed away many who use to comment and actually talked about the poem. [ I think I can say, you haven’t been posting as much as in prior years and might be one of the reason you haven’t ][ if not, please correct me ].”
        🙂
        ……………………………………………………..
        “Did you hack into a NASA satellite to pull that out the the proverbial rabbit hat?”

        LOL!! Seeker, I almost didn’t listen to it!! I was looking for something else when Google returned it as one of the results. WTH, New Zealand??? I figured it was a human interest filler for them and would just be some DJ rambling…..I had to listen to it several times to be sure, old age ya know????

        • lol… I’m still going to blame our NZ representative… Hobby was sleeping on the job over there. [ that’s my story and… blah blah blah.] OR maybe he knew?! Maybe He’s the DJ.
          That’ll get the conspiracy theorist in a tizzy.

          • Yup Seeker,
            Blame someone else instead of looking in the mirror.
            Says it all right there.
            Typical.

      • Seeker,
        I’m not here for you to miss the reasoning or discussion.
        That’s on you when you miss it.

        I’m not the one blaming others for your shortcomings.

        Stick to Canasta would ya.

        I’ll eat my hat after I crap on it if you find the treasure.

        How about we discuss the other 8 clues instead of what you think of others?

        • Nope Jake, you seem to be hear to belittle anyone that does fit your profile of what a searcher or treasure Hunter is. You enjoy the types of remarks, like taking an obviously joking manner and attempting to degrade the comment and the person for your own purpose. That is and has been your MO… Talk about typical.

          I’m reminded of your one comment that fit well here… “Do yourself.”

          • I just like to see searchers shoot themselves in the foot as you.
            I know your MO & glad we don’t share the same.

            Just keep blaming others for what you can’t accomplish & you will be fine.

            😉

    • I double checked Loco…You’re not in moderation. WordPress throws some comments in moderation automatically, like if someone uses a cuss word. But I don’t see any reason for yours to go there. I’ll keep checking.

      • LOL!! Guess it didn’t like my “b*@#hing” word in the comment to Seeker?? No prob! 🙂

  60. Well, I’ve been reading and commenting at this site most of the year, and really enjoy reading everyone’s thoughts. I’ve read probably 3/4 of the pages on this enormous site going back to the beginning (thanks, Dal!). It helps me detach from my work in mental health which is lately heartbreaking.

    Here’s something I haven’t seen here; might’ve missed it. I’m not sure if it’s a clue or a hint (gasp), but I’m struck by this, anyway:

    Hear me all and listen good

    Meall is a noun. Who knew?! It means knoll, mound.

    Here meall. Maybe it will help someone who gets through the nine and very near the TC location.

    On another note, check this out–it’s awesome! Probably won’t be up for long. (The OF webcam was struck by lightening and recorded this just before: https://www.nps.gov/features/yell/webcam/oldFaithfulStreaming.html) Maybe it’s a sign. 😉

    • Wow! What power! We had this website up over the weekend to show our grandchildren; ages from 1 1/2 to 8 years old. They’ll be going to Yellowstone towards the end of July for the first time.

  61. WWWH may be the first clue to find the blaze, but not the first clue in the poem. No one can find any clues if not for the first clue in the poem. If the first clue in the poem is not the first stanza then the poem does not make any sense. This is my opinion.RC

  62. loco wrote: “Fourth: If BWWWH is unequivocally the FIRST clue, – a. what in the Poem identifies what it is (all the info is there)? – b. what is unequivocally the NINTH clue(in the Poem)?”
    ————————————————————————————————
    Yes, that is rather the question, isn’t it? Some posters will use your FF now-revealed verbal comment to justify a location they have had for a long time. That’s not gonna work. And here’s why …

    Forrest has also said, (and I’m paraphrasing here) most or nearly all of the words in the poem are important and it’s risky for a searcher to ignore any of them.

    See, here’s the problem. Posters fixate on the word “clue”. They also fixate on the number “9”. I prefer to use whatever words and phrases I find to lead me to a credible location, regardless of whether the number I come up with is 3 or 9 or 29, or whether what I find is a “clue” or a “hint”. Ergo …

    While we can all agree that BIWWWH is the “first” “clue”, words/phrases in stanzas 1 and 5 and 6 must therefore be useful, at least as “hints”, if not “clues”. Somewhere in those stanzas, your question is probably answered. And without knowing what those “clues”/”hints” are, the knowledge that BIWWWH is of no use, whatsoever.

    What your comment does seem to reveal unmistakably is that the “9 sentences equal 9 clues” theory is false, a theory I never took seriously, because I never differentiated the word “clue” from “hint”.

    As far as I’m concerned, nothing has changed. Here again, as with so many other things that Forrest has said verbally, some posters zero in one one of his comments, and completely forget other verbal comments he has made. A smart poster will incorporate what you say … and add it into a whole grab bag of other verbal comments, to come up with a credible location, based on all 6 stanzas in the poem, therefore NOT discounting stanza 1, or 5 or 6.

    Ken (in Texas)

    • Hi Ken…..you wrote:

      “While we can all agree that BIWWWH is the “first” “clue”, words/phrases in stanzas 1 and 5 and 6 must therefore be useful, at least as “hints”, if not “clues”. Somewhere in those stanzas, your question is probably answered. And without knowing what those “clues”/”hints” are, the knowledge that BIWWWH is of no use, whatsoever.”

      There is a way to cross-check your location.

      We can extrapolate from the poem that if we were to begin it at WWWH, and then take a canyon down (south?), we now know that “the hoB” would be north of WWWH and the canyon.

      This is a good double check to see if you are in the right path.

      Good luck to you.

    • Ken {TX},
      This is one of the reasons I have asked, what is a clue vs. a hint. Sure, we know what they mean to fenn, but we don’t know which piece of information in the poem is actually a clue [ unless, we have a comment from fenn that would indicate it. Obviously ].

      Here’s a Q&A that many would like to just toss away. But I would enjoy a discussion of what it may imply to “canyon down” in the poem as a clue or part of a clue;

      Q ~Who else knows where the treasure is buried?
      A~I never said it was buried. I’ve avoided that word. I hid it. I don’t mean to imply that it isn’t buried. I just didn’t want to give that as a clue. It took me two trips in my car to hide the treasure. And I can tell you an 80-year-old man is not going to make a trip into a canyon, then come up and go down again. As for who else knows, I’m the only one. My wife doesn’t know.

      • Just another example of how FF used a car to get to the destination.

        I wonder why people can’t accept this at face value?

        BTW – my solve has a canyon down that I do not have to walk to, in order to complete the clue.

        Does that make my solve invalid?

        • Tim,
          Nothing yet make your solve invalid…

          However, if you take into consideration fenn’s comments. Two trips from his car.. he followed the same clues, the same way, as the poem tells us to get to the solve [spot-twice].. tells us, if we can’t walk several miles twice to our solve, don’t go.. tell us, folks who were at the first two clues walked pass all the others and the chest..etc.
          How is it, he must have use a car, as well as, all the others search who walk by everything else and the chest?
          Add the Q&A above stating an 80 year old man is not going up and down a canyon twice, doesn’t really give validation to the use of a car.

          Some think fenn is telling us, too far to walk, is the difference between youth and senior. Yet, at almost 87, fenn recently stated he could travel to the location of the chest today [ adding ‘he thinks’ ] and who would know but him.
          If he could travel today to get to the chest and at the same time follow the clues as he did before [because to his knowledge there is no other way], and those searchers on location walked past all the clues……..?

          I’m really having a hard time about the use of a car involving traveling the clues. I think, and just an opinion, to make the line “Not far, but too far to walk” a clue, folks turn to another method of transportation, than just hiking, to make sense of a solves possibility they like.

          Please explain how they all walked past, the other seven clues and the chest? Not what your solve theory is… explain the ATF comments of what fenn tells us those searchers did, and the same clues he stated he followed and could do today at age 87. To have all those comment be true, and the fact he warns us not to go where an 80 yr old carrying a have backpack twice… seems to be saying; from ones vehicle you must travel all the clues up and back twice, to carry the load of 42 lbs broken down into two trips… from the car park near or at the first clue.

          Why in the world would he need to start at the first clue or clues, just to go park the car somewhere else farther down the chain of the clues, then walk other clues and to the chest?
          Seems easy enough to just drive to the parking location and skip the other beginning clues… especially if they all used a map to help solve the clues.

          • My solve has an explanation for this (as well as how the 4-clue solvers missed it), but alas, you’ll have to wait until after my next/final botg.

          • Hi Seeker,

            IMO – Fenn has given us the directions and even have tried to explain them. I do believe FF is trying to help us solve the poem, without giving away a direct region is lies within.

            Thus…..I pretty much have lived and died by what FF states publically. I want to think like FF and this is the easiest manner I know…..do wht he does….and then try to apply his actions to those thoughts.

            I’ve even thought I have solved the “double Omegas” and that mystery. If you email me, I’ll send you my results and then you can determine for yourself if it is viable. zosorocks at rocketmail dot com.

            Why won’t I post it here?…..it will change the way people look at the puzzle. You have already stated two things that seem to match my theories of a couple clues, so I figured that we in Difficulty-land can still exchange info, but carefully.

            Back to your response…..

            “I’m really having a hard time about the use of a car involving traveling the clues. ”

            FF told us he walked back to his car. So I believe he used his car. Now copuld you be inside your car and find the blaze. Hmmmm….I’ve tried this out and it is cumbersome. But since I believe FF used his car to take the path of the poem, he could bhave very well stopped along the path to create the blaze. I’m jsut not to sure that FF would say something that he didn’t do. He seems to be a very honest and truthful guy, so I am banking on it that he is only trying to help us.

            Shoot – he clearly wants people to be safe, even those of us who usually never go into the wild. Safety is one level of the poem that is involved…..and applied.

            Why?

            I’ve been to my search area twice…..and the only wild animals I had seen so far are a rabbit, a couple of deer, and a herd of wild cows (*smiles*).

            This tells me something important….if there are wild cows in my forest, that would also tell me that the bear population is low or null, and also confirms that the “curiosity of a child” is also protected in some way.

            Safety has been included within the structure and placement of the TC.

            In addition to this point, my area also is actually between/”below” two mountain ranges that have been tagged as grizzly habitats. Since I am not in those two ranges, but in between them and south/below them – I could very well have matched the clue of “put in below the home of Brown” – because I have actually put BOTG in the region.

            “To have all those comment be true, and the fact he warns us not to go where an 80 yr old carrying a have backpack twice… seems to be saying; from ones vehicle you must travel all the clues up and back twice, to carry the load of 42 lbs broken down into two trips… from the car park near or at the first clue.”
            – for my solution, one can park there car approx less than 25 ft from my search location. Taking two trips to the car and abck would be very easy, concealed, secluded, and quite easy to do. The “I’ve done it tired and now I am weak” could apply to all the movement an 80 year makes with 42 lbs…..as I know I would be tired too, and I’m only 52…..so that could just be a play on the effort he took. It could also refer to the creation of the blaze that we are supposed to have already found prior to recovering the TC. So in essence, we can see that there are multiple meanings available for the “nouns”….but choosing the correct one is a key in itself.

            “Why in the world would he need to start at the first clue or clues, just to go park the car somewhere else farther down the chain of the clues, then walk other clues and to the chest?
            Seems easy enough to just drive to the parking location and skip the other beginning clues… especially if they all used a map to help solve the clues.”
            – I don’t think that is his intention at all. I think he actually “wrote down what he saw” as he drove to the hidey spot. You know….like a casual drive through the forest. One can realize plenty by just looking at your surroundings.

            Think about it for a few moments…..

            As I have gone alone in there
            And with my treasures bold,
            I can keep my secret where,
            And hint of riches new and old.
            – introduction for the seeker

            Begin it where warm waters halt
            And take it in the canyon down,
            Not far, but too far to walk.
            Put in below the home of Brown.
            – Start at a certain place, and take the canyon down for a while, and evetually put in below the home of Brown.

            From there it’s no place for the meek,
            The end is ever drawing nigh;
            There’ll be no paddle up your creek,
            Just heavy loads and water high.
            – A forest is a place of meekness for many of us.
            – TEIDN – IMO has three possible places embedded within this line. one is a clue – the other two are hints to the clue
            – TBNPUYC – location
            – HL/WH – two hints to one location
            + IMO – loads of fish within a mountain lake.

            If you’ve been wise and found the blaze,
            Look quickly down, your quest to cease,
            But tarry scant with marvel gaze,
            Just take the chest and go in peace.
            – Notice that we should have already “found the blaze” if we have arrived at this point. Is the blaze considered the actual path yuo have taken, or could it be a special marking bby FF, or could it be both.

            So why is it that I must go
            And leave my trove for all to seek?
            The answers I already know,
            I’ve done it tired, and now I’m weak.
            – Explains his adventure / defines the treasure as a “trove”. IMO – specific because of legality reasons.

            So hear me all and listen good,
            Your effort will be worth the cold.
            If you are brave and in the wood
            I give you title to the gold.
            – could there be hints in this stanza to the location – as some think…..maybe. Is it a reference to the starting region? Hmmm…IMO – it could be, but very very vague.

            What do you think?

            :o)

      • Seeker, since he is actually saying going up and down, tends to make one think he is actually talking about a canyon, ditch,gulch, etc…It also implies that you would be walking it. If he was driving, why would an old man not want to go down, up, down again? It also implies that the 2 trips were not done on the same day. Because that would mean going down, up, and down again. So, the canyon is a place, an actual canyon, you will be walking , because there would be no problems if you were driving it, and that the 2 trips were done on different days.

        Add this one into the conversation, it’s simple as long as we ask the right question.
        You have mentioned sealing a bottle that is included in the chest with wax. What was your reason for doing this? Were you concerned merely for damp conditions or is the Chest hidden in water? ~ Izcajun

        Thanks for the questions Izcajun.

        When I was ready to put the olive jar that contained my autobiography and two of my hairs in the treasure chest I studied the lid. It was made of tin coated steel, which is not easily oxidized in air or water. Over time those characteristics can break down.

        ALTHOUGH I AM NOT READY TO SAY THE TREASURE IS NOT IN WATER, I certainly didn’t want moisture to enter the jar. So I melted a chunk of microcrystalline wax to the point that it started smoking, which meant it was at its thinnest viscosity. Then I dipped the jar in the molten wax deep enough to cover the lid and part of the jar, and held it there for several seconds. I wanted the wax to seal the threads on both the lid and the jar, but I didn’t want the heat to break the glass. After it cooled for a minute or so and the wax hardened, I repeated the process two times, increasing the wax thickness on the lid. The wax was petroleum based and won’t evaporate or deteriorate. When cold, it becomes brittle. That’s why I wanted the threads on the lid and jar clogged.

        All I know are the facts, if you want the truth go next door to the psychology department.f
        (Lol, since Jake’s head is getting a little big) The right question would be, when will you be ready to say the treasure is not in water?
        Paraphrasing, but he has said that he doesn’t want to say something is a clue or not because he may want to down the line. Like the coins in the chest. In the book he says there are hundreds of them, just like hundreds of gold nuggets. He has always kept to hundreds of nuggets, but the coins changed to be 265. For one, he remembered that amount exactly, for two, he put exactly 265 in the chest. It’s a clue. So, like he likes to save certain things so he can bring them up later, when he says he’s not ready to say something as of now, makes me think, okay, when will you be ready to say something?
        So, to all who believe that the chest is in water, keep waiting, f is not ready to tell you yet that it is not in water, but the day will come when he is ready to tell you that it is not in water…:) Sorry Jake, now that you know what line the first clue is in, need to ask why he put that clue in that line, in fact, why did he put the clues in their respective lines. Everything was done deliberately, there’s a reason for the clue lines.

      • That Q& A has been nagging at me since he said it. Like most of Fenn’s statements it is contradictory in nature as to most interps of the Poem. I’ve been contemplating the possibility that this statement is indicating that portions of the {acting out} of the clues may not be necessary to physically get to the point of retrieval. That works in my theory either way. If a searcher deciphers where BIWWWH and marries that to a map, then it could be possible to follow the canyon down to the “put in” below HOB, with your finger on the map. That may possibly explain more clearly NFBTFTW. That is how I have been seeing it for a long time…but still open to other possibilities.

        • There’s definitely other possibilities when it comes to this chase. I believe it’s the asking ourselves the right questions. Why did he do this here, why there, everything deliberate.
          You’re one that sparks good conversation, helps to possibly weed out certain aspects of the chase. When you and Seeker go at it it’s all good as far as getting down to the questions we need to correctly ask ourselves. The common sense of it all that seems to have been forgotten.
          New discussion topics should be all these after comments that f has waited until the time he let them known. The fact that he specifically remembered certain things, these are the things that will help us figure everything out. Not every single word said, just the obvious. He doesn’t seem like the type to just waste his breadth.

        • Yep, Follow on a map.
          I can’t say anyone is wrong with using a car or maybe even a transport on site of some kind… But those seem unreliable when we think about how to follow the clues in a future time such as 3009. We may not have roads then. What did America look like 500 years ago?
          If and how much traveling is involved, I think we need to keep in mind, no matter how much time passes, walking / hiking is the most reasonable method for the clues to be “contiguous”

          But yes, I agree that some clues might not be places needing traveling to get to the final spot. We don’t really know it all the clues are all places either. Or even two or more clues are the same place… for example, stanza 2 as a waterfall could explain clues 1 2 and 3 [a single place], with clue 4 being the only movement [ walking ] from a point to a point. [ between clues 3 and 4 ].

          I also still have a hard time that Little Indy might be able to find the first clue and the second clue on a map of the RM’s yet still can not get closer than those two clues. IF all a map does is get you to the first clues and botg or driving is the only way to get to the next or last location… what’s the big deal about about having a map from that point on? fenn followed the clue just like he’s telling us we need to do… So, what is missing in the “detail” of her map… or is the “right map” the poem at this point with all the correct details / pieces of information?

          I’m serious when asking the question… because we have been told; “GE “and/or” a good map.” Is that only because GE has zoom capability and other map is maps don’t? Or does GE have a type of map function that we can use… like waterways and lakes, or another function [ topo ] that is only to be used for all the other clues… which would give the “certainty beforehand” great credence, as well as, solving all the clues at home, in theory, but not so much in practicality.

      • Charlie,
        Yep, those coin counts have been itching at me too. Any time fenn mentions the coins the 265 is right there. He also like to mention they are mostly double eagle… don’t know it that is helpful either or maybe he’s saying; think about the coins and how coins relate to stories told in the book. Overthinking, analyzing too much, Subtle hints in the book to help with the clues? At the very least it’s worth a second thought.

        But when it come to your comment of two trip not done in the same day… I cringe a bit. How can we get around “done in one afternoon” without stretching to the point its snaps? fenn has also told us if we personally can’t walk several miles twice to our solves… don’t go. That doesn’t sound like, make one trip today and tomorrow go get the rest.

        I also agree that the placement of where the clues are in the poem may have had a reason for clue # 1 to be in stanza 2. Yet, the bigger question falls with Little Indy’s answer. She had the poem and if all the information is in the poem and we are to marry a map to the poem… What “details” are needed for this courting to work… for the better, than for the worse?

        But back to the coins again… it was asked if the contents of the chest had anything to do with the location of the chest {“she” will be happy Q&A}.
        The answer was, No.
        Wouldn’t that be the same if a clue gets you closer to the chest idea, that the coins possibly being a clue would conflict big time to the answer without twisting that into a pretzel? I mean, I guess we could say that if the 265 is usable as a clue to get you to another clue… that is not the actual location of the chest, IDK… that is really Iffy to me as well.

        Truth be told, I haven’t ruled out numbers involved yet… But only if they can be understood to be the “details” of the “right map.” Does that make sense?
        Again, I’m looking at all the ATF statements as a guide for riding the bicycle straight and narrow.

  63. I have no idea why searchers pay more attention to what Mr. Fenn says as opposed to the poem. The poem is straightforward but one can misconstrue what Mr. Fenn says. If WWWH is the first clue in the poem why go to all the trouble to write the first stanza? If the first stanza is meaningless why write it? If we are to skip this stanza that would be not following the poem exactly, precisely. I have no idea why Mr. Fenn would say that wwwh is the first clue when this kind of comment would confuse searchers. Like I said, and not Mr. Fenn as far as I know, if WWWH is the first clue it would be the first clue to find the blaze but not the first clue in the poem. I strongly believe however that we’ve paid more attention to the blaze as opposed to the poem. The blaze is of no consequence once you figure out what the clues are and what they mean. This is my opinion. RC.

      • You are nobody to stop me from saying what I think. Just because you have more time than anybody in this blog it does not give you any authority whatsoever it only makes you a person who has more free time than most of us. This is not my opinion this is a fact Jack! RC.

        • I love freedom of speech RC.
          Even when you’re drooling or foaming at the mouth.

          I have to ask you.
          Do you know what the 1st clue in the poem is?

        • “Just because you have more time than anybody in this blog it does not give you any authority …”
          ——————————————–
          heeheehee

          • Yup Ken,
            You don’t like what has transpired in the last 24 hrs as well.

            What time of day is it?

            heeheehee

            Like a little girl.

      • Jake, I suggest you “save your breath”. . . at least,
        on this topic. This “dead horse” has been beaten
        enough. All IMO.

    • RC wrote: ” I have no idea why Mr. Fenn would say that wwwh is the first clue when this kind of comment would confuse searchers.”
      —————————————————————–
      I don’t think it is to “confuse” searchers. I think he just likes to talk. But the big problem is that searchers take everything he says as a great big CLUE, if (and only if) what he says verbally “seems” to confirm the searcher’s predetermined location. In which case searcher then conveniently forgets other things Fenn has said verbally. Taking Fenn’s verbal comments as gospel is silly, in my opinion. It leads to confirmation bias. What is not silly is the poem. Yet searchers are forever trying to abandon what’s in the poem, because they can’t make heads or tails out of it. Hence, this clinging to a verbal comment as a lifeline.

      Ken (in Texas)

  64. I wonder if you are getting paid by typed word Jake. If in your world WWWH is your first clue, why would it bother you so much that you call it “bitching” if I think differently? I just do not understand people like you. It does not bother me a bit what you think the first or the second clue is. If you want to believe that more power to you, but I am not going to call it “bitching” if you do. Aren’t you the one who has been saying something about eating a hat? Why would you want to eat a hat? Is eating hats a hobby of yours? I would rather have a healthy meal, but then again…this is you ,right.

    • Lets get this straight 1st clue is WWWH OK RC.
      I know you’re in denial as many but the bank is broke for the 1st stanza.
      Get over it as soon as you can so you can move forward with the chase.

      I don’t want to eat hat & never will.
      You need to listen good.

      I’m done preaching to you.
      Go ahead & do what you like.

      Bye bye RC.
      have a nice whatever,

  65. It is without a doubt a big confirmation statement what the first clue IS. I agree that the first stanza has a lot of words that cannot be discounted as per Fenn’s own statements over the years. Taking that fact into consideration…it may be wise to reconcile that the first stanza is the bread winner to nailing down where exactly the first clue is physically located. This makes sense if you do not disregard all of past statements. For those that feel like they have wasted time…I do not think that is the case. If a hint helps to understand a clue and a clue gets you closer to the treasure…what’s the difference really? This new revelation does not negatively impact my theories on how to decipher the Poem at all. It in fact helps me understand a bigger part really, if I pay more attention to hint vs. clue.
    I keep throwing back to “…all of the information is in the Poem.” That to me means that all of the clues are in the Poem. If I take away the “good map/GE” and “TTOTC” book and look at only the Poem…it really boils down to figuring out how ALL of the words can be understood correctly/coherently and “marry” them to a small area on a good map.
    I enjoy the what ifs and healthy talk about the possibilities. I say…keep them coming !

  66. I still do not know why searchers are trying to solve for clues instead of solving the poem itself. The what if, what if you can’t solve all the clues from the poem? The clues seem to be a path one takes to the chest. You can’t know something was a clue until you have the chest. So, since we leave our houses with confidence, not knowing the clues, but going to an exact spot, what are you left with?
    The poem solved gives you coordinates. The spot to go to. Get the chest, and then you can look back and figure out the clues. This has matched everything he has commented about.
    The clues on his website just narrow down where it’s not, is that what the “clues” in the poem do? Just narrow down where not to go?
    To tried to read f’s mind and interpret what a clue/hint is to him is pointless. Remember, the clues are to be followed. This is the path you take. The poem gives you an exact spot. This is where the chest is located. When you have the chest, you will know the clues, when you solve the poem, you will not know all the clues, not until you go to the correct spot, get the chest, then see what the clues where. How many clues minimum do we need, just the last one. SOLVE the poem, that will give you your spot, figure the clues after it’s all done, just like f did…

      • not under water my friend,lol.The clue lines, why those lines? Like Diggin pointed out, there’s reason’s behind his stories. There are references. The clue lines, when figured out is one of those.
        Hey, more than not I’m with you. Our spots are close, but not that close. My first clue has always been line 5, no change. In fact, here’s all my clue lines:
        5,6,9,13,16,17,20,22,24. Key is in line 9. Not that it helps anyone, but they do reference a story. Confidence booster:)…First 6 pack’s on me, Goldschlager will be chilled.

        • You didn’t answer my question charlie.
          Let me rephrase it.
          Are there coordinates in the poem that lead to a location?

          • Sorry, yup, that’s what coordinates do Jake. Location is so general, more like to a spot, still within the +/- of what coordinates would give, since the back up info gives steps to walk off to that spot.

  67. SMH…. 🙁
    I have a few cool word discoveries, but, with Jake and his hat eating monitoring comments…I thought I’d keep them to myself.
    At one time, I also thought Jake was a really up and up good guy with great ideas and I looked forward to his blogs, but find myself just scanning past his mean spirited remarks.
    We are all here to discuss/find the treasure, not compete in a “biggest junk” contest.
    Moving on, commenting to those who care…
    WWWH is a “real place”, and a couple of words in paragraph 5 mean “grassy” and “hill”. “Brown” is a misunderstood word, study it from all angles!
    Just trying to add some thought provoking ideas to the discussion.

    • I can eat my when necessary Donna M.

      Don’t worry about what I got, just do your job & worry about yourself.

      The biggest problem is folks put to much blame on others instead of taking care of there own business.

      Your junk is anothers treasure DM.

      I will eat my hat if you find the treasure.
      Mark it down as I have DB.

      • Jake, I won’t exchange barbs with you.
        I stated my feelings on the matter. Period.
        Eat all the hats you want, but a word of wisdom…make sure you take plenty of exlax so you will enjoy it as much coming out as it did going in!
        Be safe retrieving the treasure, we are all sure you will find it!

        • Never said I would find it but know you wont.
          You are exchanging barbs even thou they are dull.
          I don’t need “exlax” whatever that is & you do yourself.

          • I don’t think this is Jake, I think a 10 yr old has gotten into his computer.
            The Jake I admire is intelligent, helpful and confident.
            I truly do wish you luck.
            Be safe.

          • I do tend to be childish at times.
            I look at this moment as a child getting the 1st bag of candy of 9 & when you get the 9th you win the candy store.

  68. Does anyone read the first 4 lines of the poem as a clue to where the correct warm water halts is actually located?

    If it is, then we would know which warm waters halt is the correct starting point and not just a guess at one of many possible starting points in the four states.

    Any opinions?

    • Yes, which is why I’m perfectly fine with all the people here that want to dismiss it because of that podcast. Similarly, I don’t understand why all the people that dismiss stanza 1 feel the need to convince naysayers to their POV.

      When you are arguing with an idiot, make sure that he is not similarly engaged. ~Twain (I think?)

    • Jim, I would say the first 4 for set the tone of the poem- the theme (hinting) of what is to come. When I hum a song it usually is the chorus . I liken the chorus as a sum of all parts of the song. Without hearing all the lyrics the chorus can mean anything you want. So, yes, the first 4 lines elude (hint)to the clues( chorus) meaning. IMO .

    • Hi Jim.

      IMO – it is and does.

      Good luck to you and be safe out there.

      • May I ask what you think the “treasure” in line two refers to?

        I believe it is his 1st real treasure.

        • Hi Jim

          “and with my treasures bold”

          I’m in the camp that the whole stanza is an introduction to the seeker for the adventure they are about to embark upon.

          I also believe it is a riddle. If defined, it will reveal a larger area for the seeker to go to.

          Thanks for asking.

    • Jim: answer to your first paragraph= absolutely. Those that claim they solved WWWH from line-5 of the poem all by itself are deluding themselves. That clue requires more information to solve than those 6 words. It is not solvable as a standalone line in my opinion. Any searcher that suggests otherwise is pulling additional information from somewhere, whether in TTOTC or elsewhere in the poem, or what they think they know about Forrest.

      • Zap,
        This is one comment I totally agree with you on.

        A line, word, phrase, stanza alone is not going to give up the clues reference. It doesn’t matter if we know where a clue sits in the poem, it still needs information to interpret it correctly… wwwh is a perfect example because we know [ from fenn’s comments ] there are many.
        So if we take that thought of many wwh, could that also imply that, canyon down are just as many? Could NFBTFTW be considered as all those places of both references? If so, how does it bring us to a single location?

        This is why I think the poem is difficult / complicated. Attempting to see the other parts / information in the poem as telling us what it is we need to think about, bringing the poem as a whole to a final conclusion with all the clues reference divulged… given that “certainty beforehand” feeling, and answering the question… what took me so long?

        “It’s not a matter of trying, it’s a matter of thinking…” [people figured the first couple of clues and unfortunately walked past the treasure chest].”
        Where was the path’s “certainty beforehand”? Where was that “what took me so long?” smack on the head? [for the searchers who decipher the first clues, botg, on location, walking by everything].

        lol, What the heck is that “important possibility” nobody seems to have thought of?

      • Hi Seeker — I guess we can call this a banner day: we agreed on something! 😉

        “So if we take that thought of many wwh, could that also imply that, canyon down are just as many? Could NFBTFTW be considered as all those places of both references? If so, how does it bring us to a single location?”

        You already know the story, but a couple years ago I spent a thousand hours or so exploring the strategy that while there are hundreds if not thousands of places in the Rockies that could be construed as representing WWWH, and likewise thousands of canyons, and probably hundreds of potential homes of Brown, that there would be comparatively few places that would have all three in close proximity. 5,000 topo maps later, I had a pretty busy Excel spreadsheet for Montana, Wyoming and 2/3 of Colorado noting every possible WWWH, nearby canyons, homes of Brown, blazes, riches, wises, etc. that I could come up with that were within the shaded part of the map and within the altitude restrictions. There were no “Bingo!” moments, but maybe a couple dozen possibilities, none of which I was too thrilled with.

        I had been working my way north-to-south (mostly because I never felt there was any chance it was in New Mexico), but never got to the southern third of Colorado because one night in June last year I suddenly uncovered what I assumed was Forrest’s “word that is key.” And in that instant I knew that those thousand hours of mind-numbing map-scanning had been a waste of time because they never would have succeeded.

        I still think it was a sensible strategy to try, but evidently it’s not the system Forrest intended us to use to figure out the starting point. He knew that WWWH would be essentially unsolvable on its own. So he needed to include a key to unlocking the one correct WWWH out of all the others. And that key needed to be included in the poem — it was the only way he could later claim that the poem was standalone (with the exception of having an appropriate map).

        Now, is it possible to end up at Forrest’s WWWH without knowing it? I’d say sure. And I think many of the first searchers who were there had no idea of the significance — it was just happenstance, and so they drove right by all the other clues because they weren’t even looking for them. Furthermore, I think even those that arrive at WWWH by design have a high probability of driving (or walking) right by the clues that follow because they are trying to solve the wrong next clue.

        You quoted: “It’s not a matter of trying, it’s a matter of thinking…” [people figured the first couple of clues and unfortunately walked past the treasure chest].” (see my reasoning in the paragraph above).

        “Where was the path’s “certainty beforehand”? Where was that “what took me so long?” smack on the head?”

        It’s my opinion that when a searcher solves WWWH it is indeed a head-smacker, and they’ll curse themselves for taking so long. I would almost call it a “Duh!” moment. It is because of that that you can have pretty high confidence that you’re at the right starting point. Sans chest, you can never be 100% sure, of course, but I think most would be sure enough that they’d feel pretty confident it’s correct. Let’s face it, you’ve got to have very high confidence to commit the time and money to physically go there.

        One thing searchers in general don’t seem to lack is confidence, judging from all those trips that are taken. That said, if I only had WWWH, I wouldn’t leave home. Forrest has said that if you don’t have the starting point — don’t have that first clue nailed down — you’ve got nothing, and shouldn’t spend your money. But I would augment that to say that if you ~only~ have the starting point, you’ve got next to nothing, and still shouldn’t spend your money.

        Your closing question: “What the heck is that “important possibility” nobody seems to have thought of?”

        I don’t have a sure answer for you because there are at least a few good possibilities in my mind. If it’s any help, I don’t think it has anything to do with figuring out WWWH — after all, plenty of searchers have done that. My guess is it either has to do with the function of the blaze, the overarching theme to the whole solution, or specific conditions or features of the chest’s hidey spot.

        • I don’t believe there is an over-arching theme
          to the whole solution, other than clues that
          lead the successful solver to the TC. I think
          folks are trying to hard to find “layers”,
          circularity, or a lot of complexity in the poem.
          But I think FF kept it simple (but difficult).

          All IMO.

      • totally agree Zap. I don’t think the first stanza is the answer, but the 5th line by itself, no way. I don’t even think you can solve the 1st clue from the poem. Just like nobody can know what the blaze is from the poem.

        • charlie, the process of solving the poem led
          me to the knowledge of what the blaze is,
          and also where it is. It can be seen using
          the appropriate online “map” website. And
          the blaze is not man-made. It’s kinda big . . .
          about as long as a bus, I’d say. All IMO.

    • I believe the first stanza does point to the correct WWH. I have 2 potential WWH thanks to the first stanza but like the girl in India cannot get past the first two clues from looking at the map. Later this month I’ll search in those spots for the location of third clue.

  69. You know what I think? I think it’s time for a positive, uplifting, exciting, enlightening, cheerfully expressive, and delightfully funny Scrapbook. That’s what I think. You got any new Scrapbooks Forrest? I’m waiting like a hungry dog, or a greedy pirate for more of your enticing, hi T-Rex words of wisdom. 🙂

    • Hi T rex –

      You might want to prepare yourself for a scrapbook that is not uplifting.

      Just in case.
      Lugnutz

      • Probably a mix in a reflectiing theme…bets! I’ll bet you 9 clues 🙂

  70. I have no idea where hi T-Rex came from (spell check put that in), but sounds good to me. lol.

  71. Jake,

    Are you saying that one would be wise to discount all of the words in the first stanza as being useful in finding the treasure?

    Just Curious…

    • I am just saying there are no clues in the 1st stanza.
      If you deleted the 1st stanza, it wouldn’t help or hurt your chances in finding the treasure. That’s how I sum up the 1st stanza.

      • Jake – im with you on the first stanza – it doesn’t help you in finding the treasure

        • Except the seconds for your coordinates are in the first stanza. Might be hard to find without those. But I agree, no “clues” in the first stanza.

        • It is a hint to the region.

          You are doing what FF told us not to do….discount the nouns.

          Good luck to you.

      • Sorry Jake, but I. humbly disagree. May not be a clue per se, but I think it is helpful or it wouldn’t be there.

  72. The poem contains hints as well as clues does it not?
    Fenn said he chose each word carefully when he wrote the poem.
    “There are a few words in the poem that are not useful in finding the treasure, but it is risky to discount any of them…”.

  73. Loco – I am gone for a few days and you bust loose with your find of that New Zealand radio interview. So what other interviews are still sitting out there that we are also unaware of that contain some very significant and pertinent detail?

    Good find my friend, now I will have to add more statements to my collection.

    And I will need to start doing random and vague google searches about the chase to see if I can make any ‘amazing’ discoveries, so that I can be just as ‘amazing’ as you are. 🙂

    • C’mon JCM, you’re gonna make his head exploded.

      You can add “the chest is not under water” as well. [ safety first thread.]
      lol, I have been looking for that quote for years…
      Ya have to admit though, Loco’s random vacation take us to really nice places.

  74. I disagree with wwwh as being the most important information in the poem. I believe the first stanza has more information than some searchers give credit for. If you cannot figure out what this stanza is saying wwwh is of no value to you. WWWH is not a random thing one has to find out of the blue. It is an exact clue after you know where you are. This is my firm belief following the poem exactly. RC.

  75. I believe that if you think this out real good – you will find that – heavy loads and waters high is where warm waters halt – but don’t take my word for it check it out for your self – of course its just my opinion

    • Hey Frank….

      Thanks….but I’ll just keep that just as an opinion….*smiles*…..

  76. lol thanks Tim for your reply – im not trying to change any ones minds – I just comment to see if what ever I write helps anyone – so here is another opinion- if you are going up the creek – and all of a sudden – you cant paddle up your creek -because of heavy loads- its my opinion that heavy loads and waters high Is the only man made structure in the poem and that to me is where warm waters halt- cheers

  77. I think that wwwh is the map -find that and it tells you to go south to home of brown it tells you not to go west or east it tells you that the chest is not there that its farther away it tells you to go north to the blaze where other clues await so to find all of these- you have to imo find heavy loads and waters high

  78. Hi Tim (ZosoRocks)

    I would like to discuss some of your thoughts on reading the poem as you have mentioned below. In your reply to Seeker on June 29, 2017, At 10:15 A.M. It is a great interpretation of the poem.

    What would be the best way to exchange ideas on the poem without a lot of interruptions from some of the other searchers? Our thoughts seem to run the same and I wonder if the specific locations / clue location are the same. Let me know what you think. I’ll give Dal the “ok” to give you my e-mail address.

    IMO – Fenn has given us the directions and even have tried to explain them. I do believe FF is trying to help us solve the poem, without giving away a direct region is lies within.

    Thus…..I pretty much have lived and died by what FF states publically. I want to think like FF and this is the easiest manner I know…..do wht he does….and then try to apply his actions to those thoughts.

    I’ve even thought I have solved the “double Omegas” and that mystery. If you email me, I’ll send you my results and then you can determine for yourself if it is viable. zosorocks at rocketmail dot com.

    Why won’t I post it here?…..it will change the way people look at the puzzle. You have already stated two things that seem to match my theories of a couple clues, so I figured that we in Difficulty-land can still exchange info, but carefully.

    Back to your response…..

    “I’m really having a hard time about the use of a car involving traveling the clues. ”

    FF told us he walked back to his car. So I believe he used his car. Now copuld you be inside your car and find the blaze. Hmmmm….I’ve tried this out and it is cumbersome. But since I believe FF used his car to take the path of the poem, he could bhave very well stopped along the path to create the blaze. I’m jsut not to sure that FF would say something that he didn’t do. He seems to be a very honest and truthful guy, so I am banking on it that he is only trying to help us.

    Shoot – he clearly wants people to be safe, even those of us who usually never go into the wild. Safety is one level of the poem that is involved…..and applied.

    Why?

    I’ve been to my search area twice…..and the only wild animals I had seen so far are a rabbit, a couple of deer, and a herd of wild cows (*smiles*).

    This tells me something important….if there are wild cows in my forest, that would also tell me that the bear population is low or null, and also confirms that the “curiosity of a child” is also protected in some way.

    Safety has been included within the structure and placement of the TC.

    In addition to this point, my area also is actually between/”below” two mountain ranges that have been tagged as grizzly habitats. Since I am not in those two ranges, but in between them and south/below them – I could very well have matched the clue of “put in below the home of Brown” – because I have actually put BOTG in the region.

    “To have all those comment be true, and the fact he warns us not to go where an 80 yr old carrying a have backpack twice… seems to be saying; from ones vehicle you must travel all the clues up and back twice, to carry the load of 42 lbs broken down into two trips… from the car park near or at the first clue.”
    – for my solution, one can park there car approx less than 25 ft from my search location. Taking two trips to the car and abck would be very easy, concealed, secluded, and quite easy to do. The “I’ve done it tired and now I am weak” could apply to all the movement an 80 year makes with 42 lbs…..as I know I would be tired too, and I’m only 52…..so that could just be a play on the effort he took. It could also refer to the creation of the blaze that we are supposed to have already found prior to recovering the TC. So in essence, we can see that there are multiple meanings available for the “nouns”….but choosing the correct one is a key in itself.

    “Why in the world would he need to start at the first clue or clues, just to go park the car somewhere else farther down the chain of the clues, then walk other clues and to the chest?
    Seems easy enough to just drive to the parking location and skip the other beginning clues… especially if they all used a map to help solve the clues.”
    – I don’t think that is his intention at all. I think he actually “wrote down what he saw” as he drove to the hidey spot. You know….like a casual drive through the forest. One can realize plenty by just looking at your surroundings.

    Think about it for a few moments…..

    As I have gone alone in there
    And with my treasures bold,
    I can keep my secret where,
    And hint of riches new and old.
    – introduction for the seeker

    Begin it where warm waters halt
    And take it in the canyon down,
    Not far, but too far to walk.
    Put in below the home of Brown.
    – Start at a certain place, and take the canyon down for a while, and evetually put in below the home of Brown.

    From there it’s no place for the meek,
    The end is ever drawing nigh;
    There’ll be no paddle up your creek,
    Just heavy loads and water high.
    – A forest is a place of meekness for many of us.
    – TEIDN – IMO has three possible places embedded within this line. one is a clue – the other two are hints to the clue
    – TBNPUYC – location
    – HL/WH – two hints to one location
    + IMO – loads of fish within a mountain lake.

    If you’ve been wise and found the blaze,
    Look quickly down, your quest to cease,
    But tarry scant with marvel gaze,
    Just take the chest and go in peace.
    – Notice that we should have already “found the blaze” if we have arrived at this point. Is the blaze considered the actual path yuo have taken, or could it be a special marking bby FF, or could it be both.

    So why is it that I must go
    And leave my trove for all to seek?
    The answers I already know,
    I’ve done it tired, and now I’m weak.
    – Explains his adventure / defines the treasure as a “trove”. IMO – specific because of legality reasons.

    So hear me all and listen good,
    Your effort will be worth the cold.
    If you are brave and in the wood
    I give you title to the gold.
    – could there be hints in this stanza to the location – as some think…..maybe. Is it a reference to the starting region? Hmmm…IMO – it could be, but very very vague.

    What do you think?

    :o)

    • No, the blaze is not the path you have taken. Forrest has said the blaze is real multiple times. You might want to look up his comments, I am too lazy to look them up for you.

      • The path one takes to the TC will be real. It will be taken by a real person, to real locations, and then to a real TC.

        How can you conclude that a blaze is not “real”, in any sense of the word?

        You are cutting yourself short of many opportunities.

    • Hi Jim….just email me….and we can chat. My email address was in my response you quoted.

      Feel free to use it.,..

      Cheers.

    • None of the clues refer to man made objects or structures IMO. Why? They will never last 100 years let alone 1000 years. Also IMO it has nothing to do with fish, animals, or any humans whatsoever.

      • I don’t believe the clues have to last 100 or 1000 years, only the treasure’s hiding spot does IMO. But that doesn’t matter and it is not really my question. I’m not interested in getting into that debate.

        Do you think Forrest is declaring that NO clue in the poem relates to a dam, including a beaver dam in this interview? Should Dal include this in the cheat sheet because Forrest said it? Or was it a misspoken sentence and he was really just talking about WWWH?

        I know many don’t think a dam or man made structure is part of ANY clue, but I am more interested in what Forrest is saying, no offense to anyone. I have never heard anyone say that Forrest has said that a beaver dam cannot be part of any clue, but Forrest includes a beaver dam in this interview (because the host asks him) as something that is not part of the clues.

        • As I said, I think you are wrong. I’m not debating anything. Keep looking at houses and structures, it just means IMO you are not competition for me 😉

      • The clues refer to things of the natural world. Physics tells me so.

        Lugnutz

        • Lug,

          I do not think they need to be “natural”, only that they do not involve any man made structure. A clue could refer to a city, but not because of a resident named Brown who lived there (ala Molly Brown). However, a city such as “Santa Fe” NM would stand the test of time, thousands of years even if the city disappeared or was renamed. (I’m not looking in NM).

          It has to have some property that will allow it historical significance down the road. For example, and this is NOT my hoB, but Yellowstone NP could qualify as hoB. Would Molly Browns house (either one, includng the one in Denver) qualify? No, I am affraid she is not famous for anything except a big mouth and not drowning on the Titanic.

          Have you ever went to the East Coast? Maybe around Philly, PA? Ever been at the spot where Washington crossed the Deleware River? That spot will forever be historical. It has major significance unlike Joe or Molly Brown.

          Having said that, WWWH is a geological feature IMO. It is an EXACT spot, not an area. hoB is an area, as well as canyon down.

    • You have to ask yourself, “why did he say dam?”
      There may have been a time when there was a dam, just no more. Him saying no dam should maybe tell you that at one time, somewhere, there was a dam. It’s a hint. Example, if your heavy loads and water high refers to a lake up in the mountains, and while you walk your path you know that the lake at one time was a say electric dam or something, it is very possible you are walking the correct way.
      Any extra info that you can solve or prove is a plus. If you have a solve for coins in the chest, or his rainbow, or draw a tangent, or saltpeter, etc…. that all could be the info that makes you 100% confident. Sooner or later, all the coincidences turn into proof. At some point, you have to believe that you have more than coincidences and that you have a viable solution. That it’s all done by design.

      • Charlie asked – “You have to ask yourself, “why did he say dam?””

        I always pictured early searchers rappelling up or snorkeling down hydroelectric dams, endangering their own carcasses and riling up an orange-alerted attention from Homeland Security.

        JAKe

      • Charlie the problem with the coins being usable is highly doubtful. The question was asked about the contents of the chest having a connection to the hidey spot… I would think that it’s safe to say the same for the clues. Especially, when the clues are the only way to find the spot the chest lays in wait.

        I also think we can eliminate your thought of ‘a dam at one time…’ if a beaver hut is considered a dam and that is also eliminated by the term dam… would it be the same for any reference of a dam at any time? I mean, if what you say is correct, we could back an ice age glacier blockage that prevented water flow as it melted, and say that is wwwh, but it’s no longer there, right? In my mind that would also be a dam… something that prevents the flow of water.

        I still have to wonder if the ‘many wwwh’ are connected is someway [ all waterfalls or all drainage systems or all lakes etc. ] and the correct one is explained by solving a later clue… maybe hoB?
        ~If we knew that clue[hoB] we could go right to the chest, right?
        ~If we knew that clue[hoB] why would we be concern about wwh, right?

        For me it just make sense;
        ~ if there are ‘many wwwh in the RM’s and nearly all of them are N.of SF’… Something in the poem should point us to the correct one. Maybe we’re not looking far enough into the poem to find the correct reference to the first clue, and just guessing.

        I also wonder if we can do a process of eliminations ourselves, to what wwh refers might to.
        If you’re personal solve doesn’t have one[wwh] ‘below’ SF. you should be able to kick that thought out as non-plausible. Example; are there any geyser below SF? If not, then a geyser should not be considered a potential for wwh, line of thinking.

        Before loco brought to light a fact that I never, and many others, heard directly from fenn in a recording that wwh is the actual first clue… the idea was to think about the possibilities of the first clue being something else. While others will brag they “knew it all along”… imo, if the thought never crossed their minds, they were only working on a hunch… But now we know it as fact, the first actual clue that fenn states we need to nail down or ‘stay home.’
        It sure would be nice to know / understand why searchers indicated to fenn the correct deciphered first clue, but they didn’t seem to know… Along with the second clue, and now, the first four clues, and still don’t seem to know they did. What’s missing from our thoughts?

        Is there a significance to be understood that the wwh reference as a single location, but connects to all the reference of the many wwwh north and south of SF? and is there a later clue that plops us on the correct wwwh?

        Just thoughts…

        • Seeker. I am one that always had pegged as BIWWWH as being the first clue ( I am not of the bragging ilk) simply because this line says’ Begin it’. So, to me the last of the 9 clues is the Blaze:

          If you’ve been wise and found the blaze,
          Look quickly down, your quest to cease,

          What is your opinion of the what is the last clue?

          • The simplest thought refers to..but.. as something else is needed.

            On a side note; others beg me as only thinking​ that wwwh might not be the first clue. The thought process was after the first two clues comment that searchers told Fenn what those clues were but they didn’t seem to know… Why wouldn’t someone look at other options when we have been told we need to nail down the first clue.

            The helium heads here just don’t seem to think about any ‘WhatIF’s at all.

            As far as the next line in the poem.. but tarry scant.. many just want to think fenn is saying​, grab that chest and run. Yet do you see anything indicating “don’t” linger?

            It say …but… as to, there might be a bit more to the finishing of the clues.

            Heck, we still have some water fowl who insist the chest is IN water.

          • Seeker: “Heck, we still have some water fowl who insist the chest is IN water.”

            He never said that.

            Read it again.

          • Seeker,
            “The thought process was after the first two clues comment that searchers told Fenn what those clues were but they didn’t seem to know… Why wouldn’t someone look at other options when we have been told we need to nail down the first clue.”

            Speaking for myself, though it can be identified as the first clue( wwwh) it was the strong potential of a couple other clues that help to identify it as where. Knowing that it is the first written clue doesn’t mater much unless I have other clues that can follow it to somewhere or from somewhere. Thus giving the what it is and where of it ,identifiable. So, I think those folks that walked by the remaining clues because :A) some weren’t there searching but were there on their way to searching somewhere else. B) Had correctly solve a couple of clues but just couldn’t find nor relate anymore of the clues around there ,so they thought they were mistaken . I say this only because I have looked at these potential perspectives for at my area of solve. Since it is a story from FF of poeple being in the right area and missing somethings and being 200-500 ft away. I figured it was a good test scenario to apply to my spot to see if this could happen. I am just giving some of my thoughts , I am not saying “I know”.

            Tarry scant and marvel gaze

            I thought many different things. Now I just think it means ” don’t be so quick to dismiss what you are seeing as being a normal something else”.

            All just my opinion.

          • LOL, again Jake you’re not reading…

            Alsetenash,
            I stated almost, on another post, the same as you did.
            If you notice my use of the commas above you’ll see that the addition to my sentence ‘on another post’ seems the same as when I read the line… “Look quickly down, your quest to cease, But… ”

            It seems logical to me that the line could be ‘understood’ as … Look quickly down but tarry scant with marvel gaze, your quest to cease.

            Meaning there is more to do then just look down. Quickly is an action word involving time… Tarry means, to linger, and scant is a small amount.
            The sentences for me seem to be saying; Look quickly down by lingering a small amount of time to gaze at whatever needs to be seen… for our quest to cease.

            I agree that the first clue [wwh] is more than likely told of or found by another clue or words in the poem. The line itself doesn’t seem to indicated a place as a single spot, just an overall understanding of the “many’ wwh in the Rockies and even south of SF.

            We have been told that there are many wwh, and “nearly all” are north of SF… seems to reason that some are south as well. Can we eliminate some guess work by eliminating wwh that are not south of SF, in thought? If our brilliant solves doesn’t have the same reference to anything thing south of SF… we might have the wrong wwh in our solve.

            It might not be much, but it could help those theories of what wwwh might not be as well. And we’ll need to look at the poem again, to see what might not fit in a later clue.

            Now I have a question for you… wise? does that mean, you’ve been smart enough to get that far in the poem, and correctly, to actually find the blaze? Or is wise an actual clues itself?

            The thing about a blaze, imo, it’s may not be so much a “marker” like you are here, line of thinking… but more like a pointer, as to which direction to look or go, Not unlike the use of a ‘trail marker/blaze’

            So that works well with my thought; more is need to be done once the blaze is found… look quickly~ an action~ linger a short time, as in quickly also a time reference ~ to gaze at something… to locate the precise 10″sq spot that hides the chest.

          • Seeker. Ya, for me, I really didn’t think I had the WWWH meaning and location until all the other clues were identified up to including the blaze. Seems odd or contrarian to do so but I couldn’t confirm to myself of the correct wwwh ,both of what and where, until I had all other clues figured out at location. Though many wwwh potentials could be identified as potentials, it was only one that lead to all other 8 potential clues Hence the, in my opinion, confirmation of which wwwh. All others I thought of lead to only a couple of clues and were duds.

            I should add that , Look quickly down, your quest to cease,. Is followed by “But tarry scant with marvel gaze,” Its that contrarian “But” that prompts me to think …. “don’t be so quick to dismiss what you are seeing as being a normal something else”.

            Seeker asks:
            “Now I have a question for you… wise? does that mean, you’ve been smart enough to get that far in the poem, and correctly, to actually find the blaze? Or is wise an actual clues itself?”

            I think Wise in the sentence means ,in leu of , there are many types of blazes and many of any types. If you have reached this point of location due to solving the other 8 location of clues, then you ‘ have’ “been wise” and now found the blaze. I know I just said two things here, let me explain. Wise is meaning both ‘ up to this point’ and ‘ this now point’. This of itself means ,’ at this point the Blaze should be rather obvious to you- “Wise”. So, for me to relate this , again, I can only go buy my solve and solution of the clues about this. When I seemingly have arrived to this point, the blaze was unmistakable to me.

            Again, I definitely don’t ‘ know’for sure of course. I am just running with it.

            All just my opinion.

          • Alsetenash,
            I understand exactly what your saying.
            I also think this is why fenn stated both; The clue are in consecutive order, and, The clues are contiguous.

            Seems to be, to understand one clue, we need to understand most or all the clues combined or as a whole. At least that is the way I see it.
            As you said; By going by your thought / solve… “This of itself means ,’ at this point the Blaze should be rather obvious to you- “Wise”.”

            Which also might indicated if you have not been wise… you might not know the blaze if it hit you in the face. I could surmise the same for all the clues… seeing searcher, in search mode, walked by all the clues and the chest.

            I have to repeat fenn’s comment;
            “It’s not a matter of trying, It’s a matter of thinking. I mean, people figured the first couple of clues and unfortunately walked past the treasure chest.”

          • Seeker. Yes, yes!!

            You said :

            “Seems to be, to understand one clue, we need to understand most or all the clues combined or as a whole. At least that is the way I see it.”

            This is what I mean when I say, that for me to conclude a clue as a clue for it’s meaning of where it is ,what it is and identify it at or on location. They must, individually and as a whole, meet all the criteria of contiguous unity. Force to fit even one of them force fits them all as far as I am concerned- contiguous by the means you begin with. Begin with theories then end with confidence. For me, the one clue, the one and only piece of the puzzle that snaps them all together, more so than any other, is the HOB clue. All others are needed for that also, but HOB is the leavener where they all rise together lol.

            Just my thoughts on my coclusions.

        • I see your point, noted. As far as the coins, lol, it’s your medicine wheel….:)
          The high probability of the coins not being used, and you find that they are, shows something by design.
          I can get with the dam thing, it’s just tough to not try to see what f says from every angle. You know that, in fact, to not take into consideration all the possible angles goes against being open minded about the whole thing. You are right about the dam though. It’s also best to “weed” out the not possible solutions. Like with WWWH.
          How do WWH, that needs to be nailed down or something with cards and home, do we break down each word? How can a description be found in the poem?
          To me. there is only one answer, you cannot solve for WWWH with the poem. We know it’s a clue, so what does that say? Not all the clues can be solved by the poem? That is a high possibility. So then what? We know we have a long distance to walk, we know some of the clues are in tight focus with the key, we know anybody can get the first two clues, why not the third? What if hoB is not really a clue? Can you really know what the blaze will look like from the poem?
          My point was as long as you feel like you have a good answer for all the things he has said, or can solve for them, the better off you are, of course. He doesn’t always throw out hints when he speaks, but at times it seems like he does. If someone can put the time stamps to mean something and it helps them with the solve, it may be info needed to find confidence. Like the coins in the chest. He remembered the number, how many gold nuggets? Hundreds. In the book, how many coins? Hundreds. Later on 265, it’s a reference to something. Just like his rainbow. Just like the joker, just like the alligators, just like Skippy standing up, etc…etc…etc…

          • LOL Charlie… That is why the dang book confuses the hell out of me. But it also makes me ask all those questions. I’m not looking for answers from others… I’m looking for a thought process I might have overlooked.
            Like; If wwwh is so important to nail down, why would we be concern with it if we know hoB? Kinda make ya think there’s a possibility hoB is the location of the correct wwwh out of all those possibilities, and the waters ‘put in’ below it.

            Because something is missing in the thought process of those who were there.
            Ha! maybe the line… Not far, but to far too walk… is not walking but pacing out 265 feet.. Ah! crap, now look what ya did. Ya got me thinking about those dang coins…

        • Seeker,

          I’ve tried locating a quote related to your comment that f said the chest contents not “….having a connection to the hidey spot”, but I couldn’t find it.

          Would you mind providing the quote please?

          Thanks………pinatubocharlie

          • I think that this is the quote that you were looking for:
            :“Are there any objects placed in the Bronze Chest that are connected, or have meaning to the place the chest is hidden? ~ Mike
            “No Mike, everything in the chest is straight forward and visual, except my autobiography, which some might find dull. Oops, I forgot, there is one thing in the chest that I have not talked about except to say I don’t want to talk about it. It is something saved especially for the person who solves the clues. I think that person will be pleased when she sees it.” f

            Hope that this helps – JDA

          • Thank you JDA. I asked because I ran across something in my general solve area yesterday that’s a perfect fit for two of the “objects” in the TC, including the associated numbers. I also found other correlations as well, so despite the quote, I’m having difficulty letting go that the the TC contents are not relevant in one way or another.

            Take care………Pinatubocharlie

          • Penatubo

            Another of Forrest’s quotes goes something like – don’t make the poem fit your solve…or something like that – good luck though – JDA

    • Prehistoric, I was wondering the same thing after hearing this interview. Forrest says in the interview that “a dam is not part of the clues”, including beaver dams, but after this interview in later statements, and on the cheat sheet, all that Forrest has said is that WWWH is not a dam. It’s interesting because I could see a dam or beaver dam being associated with several other possible clues in the poem such as “home of Brown”, “heavy loads and water high”, or “the blaze” (just look at the recent “Up near Hegben Lake” post for an example of a dam being used as a clue other than WWWH).

      Why did Forrest state in the interview that “a dam is not part of the clues”, but after the fact all that has been spreading around is that “WWWH is not a dam”? It’s a bit of a disconnect that might warrant some clarification.

      (On a side note, I thought that the radio host in that interview was kind of a jerk when he commented that Forrest must not be a very good pilot if he got shot down twice during the Vietnam War.)

      • Blex ~”Why did Forrest state in the interview that “a dam is not part of the clues”, but after the fact all that has been spreading around is that “WWWH is not a dam”? It’s a bit of a disconnect that might warrant some clarification.”

        It could be a simple as… fenn knew he spoke to one searcher about wwh not being a dam and just felt he needed to have all know that as well… no picking sides, line of thinking, the fair game scenario.
        I also think we need to remember… WE are supposed to figure it all out with the information from the start. For fenn’s comment, he “thought of everything” to be as factual as possible… his not going to hand feed all the information we need to discover ourselves.

        In hindsight, we might have understood why he left out “a dam is not part of the clues” earlier on, just for the fact that, we should know this if we solve the clues correctly… the whole point of the challenge.

        But for the fun of it… “a dam is not part of the clues” is a factual statement that could only cover part of all the clues, and that “part” is wwh… which is part of the “9 clues” Because we ‘know’ wwh is an actual clue… it’s all about perspective.

        IMO, from fenn’s comments; we have facts that say;
        wwwh is a clue and the first clue.
        HoB is a clue.
        the Blaze is a clue.
        Unless I’m missing a comment… these are the only “facts” that we have, thus far… about what a clue is in the poem.
        Canada, Utah. Idaho, Nevada, 300 miles east of Toledo, not in a graveyard, not in a mine, tunnel or cave etc etc etc. don’t seem to be helpful or clues, in the thought of solving the poem… just eliminating factors that have been suggested by searchers in the past. Sure, those can be helpful as far as the wild goose chase is concern… but imo not clues.
        Maybe that is why fenn later called them useless clues?

        • That’s the thing Seeker, they are clues on his website. He could change the word clue from those things but has not. I don’t believe they are clues either, but there it is on ‘his” website. So, how can we tell what he considers a clue? we can’t…IMO.

          • Yep, fenn calls everything a clue. Not in an outhouse a clue, right? But we know why he stated it… idiots were digging in old outhouse and graveyards. Wasn’t there one jamoke with a backhoe diggin up someone’s property?

            Lets face it… if fenn pointed out exactly what all clues in the poem are, to what are hints… we might not be having all this fun. I mean, what would be left for us to do?

        • Seeker, this is a response to your other post,
          above, that mentioned hoB. I am of the STRONG opinion that one CAN’T know the
          correct hoB without knowing WWWH.

          All IMO.

          • Tighterfocus,
            The chat Alsetenash and I were having was about how can we decipher a single wwh, out of all the many possibilities, without another connecting clue? [basically].

            In thought, if there are many wwwh, there might be just as many canyon down… If there is only one canyon, then it might be we need to know which canyon to find the correct wwwh.
            However, if there are many canyon as well… a later clue[s]… like the stand alone sentence, hoB… might be the indicator to which correct wwh, line of thinking.

            Lets say we think wwh is a waterfall, great we deciphered the first clue. But we don’t know where it is, right. How do we now which one?

            Well, is it possible that the ‘grand canyon of YSP’ is that canyon… if so we have the correct wwh… but why? and how do we confirm that beforehand ? or the path we must take.
            Could hoB mean, home of the public servants that take care of the place? Could heavy loads and water high give us a place where the chest lays in wait? Maybe at the foot of the lower falls, across from the falls, where there is known petrified wood?

            The example above is only for thought that we need something else from the poem to allow us to choose the correct first clue… and why that place… out of all the possible wwh.

            I think many break down the clues as, individual places to themselves, and not looking at it as a whole… We are told all the “information” to find the chest is in the poem. OK, great. What is wwh and where is it?

            Something else from the poem must explain that. Or warm could is the real clue and not the waters so much. And warm could tell us which canyon, line of thinking. Maybe, Not far but too far to walk, like Scott suggested, is a name of the canyon. And we need to know which direction the waters flow for the correct direction to find hoB, line of thinking.

            Many options and thoughts need to be looked at… Unless you can somehow magically pick the first clue all by it’s lonesome… then I’m all ears!
            [although, I do have a theory for just that, and it involves the first stanza].

            So, you say one can’t know hoB without wwh… I’m fine with that thought. How do you decipher wwh out of all the possibilities ~?~ that information should be in the poem, right? No dart tossing, no guessing… but something logical to work with.

            Maybe something from the book that explains what wwh is… a lake, falls, geyser, rivers, mud puddle… But we still would need something from the poem to narrow down the correct one of those options as well, right?
            Or otherwise, the first clue ~wwh~ is nothing more than a shot in the dark… that doesn’t sound like we can nail it down at all.

          • Ya, to me, wwwh and hob are of the same difficulty level.

            What is it?
            Where is it?
            Which one is it?

            Need the other clues to help identify them.These two can be so many different things. IMO .

      • Blex-
        I agree on all counts (including the host’s comment about Fenn as a pilot). I would like to see this clarified: Which of the nine clues is OFFICIALLY NOT a dam or associated with a dam PER FORREST FENN?
        1. WWWH
        2. All Nine clues

        It’s not about what searchers think – it’s about what Fenn actually meant to tell us. I don’t know whether the answer is 1. or 2. The interview suggests the answer is 2. but the cheat sheet says it is 1. So there is a conflict.

        • Prehistoric, it’s official about WWWH not being a dam. That’s in Scrapbook 68.

          Many searchers have thought that warm waters halt at a dam because water being released through flues near the bottom of the dam is much colder than water on the surface of the lake. I have discussed around that subject with several people in the last few days and am concerned that not all searchers are aware of what has been said. So to level the playing field to give everyone an equal chance I will say now that WWWH is not related to any dam. ff

          http://dalneitzel.com/2014/05/16/scrapbook-sixty-eight/

          I cut Fenn a little slack when it comes to interviews, there’s his comments about it being buried and not correcting them when an interviewer says it’s buried. There’s the interview when he almost says seven thousand feet instead of five thousand. And several more. I’ll listen to the interview again and see if he says anything definitive

          I am going to add the first clue is WWWH because he clearly says it and then repeats it again. So that’s what he meant to say.

  79. Can someone tell me if the quote below is from FF in regards to the animals that he has seen around the treasure area?

    “I’ve been to my search area twice…..and the only wild animals I had seen so far are a rabbit, a couple of deer, and a herd of wild cows (*smiles*).”

    • Nevermind, I guess I should read the sentence a little more carefully before posting questions…lol

    • The quote you supplied looks like a searcher’s quote to me (“my search area”).

      Below is a short video of Fenn describing being at the search area. He mahy have said other things about it also but this is all I have ever found directly said by him. He describes it starting at the 1:50 mark:

      https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=aJBakBqwQVs

      • I meant him describing things being at the chest location ( not search area).

        • Alsetenash,
          If you haven’t already, you should go ahead & buy his 2 books. You being a self- described sleuth, it’s possible you could find Indulgence with the first book alone.
          You have to admit you’re hooked, we all are…there’s the prize AND then there’s the bragging rights

          • Yes, I am hooked for sure. I have solved things in the past by being good at sleuthing something’s but I was good only because I solved them. I am only interested in doing sleuthing if it effects me directly in some way. I think I have what I needed from the books already for hints though. I will eventually get the books. I am kind of abhorrent to bragging . Sometimes a true story will sound like bragging.

    • LOL Welcome to your modern day treasure hunt Gregorious.

      Forrest didn’t say that silly….I did.

      It was in a response to the fellow hunter, “Seeker”.

      Good luck.

  80. Ok I have to admit that I do not follow the FF treasure chase as much as many of you. I just saw a news article on Youtube where a second person has died and the local sheriff is pressuring FF to call of the chase. In the video FF says to the sheriff that he will give out another clue to keep people safe. Does anyone know if he has done this and what is that clue? In another news video FF was asked if he will call off the chase and he said he will think about it. Is there any development regarding this? I hope he doesn’t.

  81. pdenver,

    Some ‘current’ information about Fenn Haven Motel – Cabins:

    http://hotels-montana-ne.getmyhotel.com/west_yellowstone/fennhaven_motel_cabins_2298164ne.html

    Inasmuch as Fenn Haven no longer exists; (Not the Dude Motel, still located at 3 Madison), there is, however. a ‘One Horse Motel’, (Yes, umm)…..not even 300 feet away from where Fenn Haven once stood.

    I think there are a group of trees across from Boundry ………….’street’ according to google.

    Additionally, I called the One Horse Motel at 216 Dunraven St. West Yellowstone, and spoke with a front desk person, “Carrie”; she advised that I call the local Chamber of Commerce after the holiday and inquire about some ‘interesting’ stats on Fenn Haven.

    I’m getting a sense that there’s a lot more to street locations and the group of trees I mentioned located across nearby…. “Boundry”. ( Not to dismiss 216 Canyon Rd. as well).

    Will continue the research, and attempt to clarify whatever questions may arise from all of this!!

    SL

    • Hello SL. I had no idea where Fenn Haven Motel-Cabins were located. Thank you for the information. I’m curious what the Chamber of Commerce is going to tell you. While I looked on Google Earth for its location, I was surprised of how close I was. Two/three years ago, my family broke down on N. Canyon and Gallatin, heading north. I found The Dude Motel last year. I’m embarrassed to say I couldn’t remember the name of the Totem Café, so we ate elsewhere. After looking for the location of the Totem Café, it appears the sign is there, but possibly renamed Bullwinkles Saloon & Eatery. Perhaps they’re next door to each other. It’s hard to tell. I’ll look into this a bit further.

      • pdenver-
        The Totem Cafe had several names, usually Totem (something) and was in fact where Bullwinkles is now.

        • Thank you, Dal. During research, I found a link that said it was closed, but didn’t know how old it was. Explains why searching on Google Earth, the name Bullwinkles came up when I typed in Totem Café.

    • (Second try.) I had no idea where Fenn Haven Motel-Cabins were located. Thank you for the information. I’m curious what the Chamber of Commerce is going to tell you. While I looked on Google Earth for it’s location, I was surprised of how close I was. Two/three years ago, my family broke down on N. Canyon and Gallatin, heading north. I found The Dude Motel last year. I’m embarrassed to say I couldn’t remember the name, Totem Café, so we ate elsewhere. After looking at Google Earth and searching for the Totem Café, it appears the sign is there, but possibly renamed Bullwinkles Saloon & Eatery. Perhaps they’re next to each other. It’s hard to tell. I’ll look into this a bit further.

    • Thank you for the link, SL. It looks like a nice place to stay. Was this owned by the Fenn family, or is the name, “One Horse” to be made in connection to the company Mr. Fenn is co-owner with?

      P.S. Yes, I ended the sentence with “with.” 🙂

      • Had to go back to the photos and see what you saw. One way of making their guests feel welcomed; fresh air and amenities.

  82. I don’t think Brown gravy served any place else could even come close to what the Totum Cafe dished out! lol

    A this point it doesn’t appear that The One Horse Motel is currently connected with The Flyer. (Was able to obtain the owner’s name, etc.)

    Both FennHaven and One Horse are in close proximity. Could be that FH was torn down, and the One Horse Motel was built on Father Fenn’s original FH property. Don’t get how FH can still be semi- listed per the above link I penned last evening.

    BTW…..have read similar subject matter and personal opinions here at Dal’s. Nothing thus far about a connection between the FennHaven and One Horse properties.

    Feel as though I’ve done more * traveling while arm chairing it on TTOTC, than with over a decade long ‘heels on the clouds’ career related with air travel!

    SL

    • I went on Google Earth with the address you gave for Fenn Haven, and it looks like the name of the property is called “Brandin’ Iron Inn” at that address.

      As for the brown gravy, I believe no one else could have come close either. I think they like Mr. Fenn in the back of the kitchen. Maybe they heard him singing and wanted to hear more. 🙂

  83. First let me say that I have NO clue where the chest is. With that being said I am pretty confident where the chest is not. With that being said, I think most of the searchers have a wrong interpretation of the clues. If we look at the clues in the traditional interpretation of them describing a location and then instructions for finding the chest within that location then if I had enough resources OR time I could literally map out every location in the Rockies that match the traditional interpretation and search each one until I came across the correct one. I would not need to truly solve the poem, just use process of elimination based on the clues. There are only so many HOB, wwh, etc… And, once you start combining the clues to filter locations the search area decreases even more. I think I read somewhere that there has been over 100,000 searchers. With that many people searching it is only a matter of time before someone “stumbles” upon the chest based on the traditional interpretation…which FF said will not happen. I am not trying to offend anyone but I think a lot of people are not using common sense when looking at the treasure area. FF has said himself that he was 80ish when he hid the treasure. I know a lot of people have painted him into a superman who could of climbed Mt. Everest but he is not. He is a normal, older man with aches and pains and limitations. An 80 year old man is not going to haul 40 pounds worth of treasure in two trips across rough terrain “less than a couple of miles” in a single day in the Rocky mountains. I would suggest that any area I am searching would have a parking lot/road within several hundred feet of my search area. I would also suggest that the journey to my search area would be fairly easy terrain to journey across. I don’t believe he flew anywhere due to the paper trail (flight plans, car rentals, hotel rentals) that would be left and the questions that would be asked if it was a commercial flight…SORRY you are not boarding any flight with 40 pounds of gold without raising some suspicion. As far as road trips are concerned. I am pretty sure he did not take a multi-state Rocky mountain road trip by himself at the age of 80. If he did take one of these trips I find it very unlikely that he would have been able to hide a chest weighing 40 pounds from his travel companion. I am sure when they would stop of the evening he didn’t leave two million dollars sitting in the car over night. I am sure the person would wonder why FF was struggling to carry this certain bag. Try hauling 40lbs in and out of your car without attracting attention of your friends or family. Now imagine doing that at 80 years old. My personal opinion is that he put it in his car and drove it somewhere into the Rockies of New Mexico. I think that is the only way of doing it without arousing the suspicion of his family. I personally believe it is in a somewhat public place that has meaning to FF. I will not say why I think this because I don’t want to give away to much. This is just my two cents.

    • I worked for a family that had 2 private planes. They owned waterfront property and flew directly from their property. They flew me with them to sporting events , we landed at an international airport. They had their own car there and a condo. No security checks for private planes, no car rental and no hotel. They went there regularly so they had these amenities. Nothing is black and white with the scenarios and does anyone outside of his family know of all his assets past and present? Prove or disprove all the same. Imo .

      • At the time of the hiding of the chest he no longer owned a plane. His grandson was a pilot at this point but again this would arouse suspicion of why grand dad is hauling around this heavy bag. FF is a smart man who is not going to take a chance that someone would remember him and a heavy bag he had and where they saw him with it. My personal opinion is that the hiding of the treasure needed to be apart of his routine so that no one would get suspicious. “Hey hon, I am going fly fishing”…hides the chest instead. No one would think twice.

        • A family member said that ( paraphrasing) to their best memory recollection, they last saw the chest on his dining room table. Was the chest lid open? Did they see the contents inside if there were any? The contents of the chest weigh 22 pounds. Is 22 pounds in a suitcase enough to raise suspicion? My suitcase usually weights more than that. The chest itself could have been seen more so than the contents inside- closed and locked while stored or even on his table- we don’t have those details. He could have been flown by anyone anywhere with the contents but not with the obvious 20 pound chest. Just a 20-40 pound suitcase. Who knows? I know I don’t, so I can’t say either way.

          • You are absolutely right…no one knows for sure. But we can eliminate a few ideas. We know he didn’t take a commercial flight because the chest would have been detected and questions and paper work would have been created. I also don’t think that FF would have taken the chance of flying private because what if the pilot or staff remember flying FF to a certain location. What if someone remember a certain bag. I am sure FF didn’t allow two million dollars out of his sight. These are all things that I am sure he avoided.

          • No ònes going to look in his suitcase on a private plane. What if he has a cabin or condo with a safe somewhere in the Rocky Mountains . What if he has or had 1 in each state? He Is a member of the board of Buffalo Bills Museum in Cody Wyoming. Limitless potentials for him to go a be where ever for whatever . Especially since no one was suspicious of any chest hiding in the RC idea, no one would be watching him like a hawk about his details. I am just giving not to be limited in thinking ideas. Think like a sleuth. IMO.

          • Maximum carryon weight is 40 pounds
            He certaimly didnt check it!
            Also its illegal to take anything that valuable on a plane, a commercial flight.
            Also, it all gets xrayed.

          • Lug,
            Why is it illegal to transport valuable cargo on a commercial flight within the contiguous 48? I’ve not heard that before. Guess I better stop doing that 🙂

        • Gregorious –

          Do keep in mind that the actual quote from Poor Richard is:

          Three may keep a Secret, if two of them are dead

          Lugnutz

      • Alsetenash –

        He had a plane in Sant Fe.
        He got about 600 or 700 miles on a tank.
        You can’t fly to Montanna in the plane.
        You can fly to Lander, thats about it for distance.
        You have to refuel AND fly home.
        You are 80 years old.

        The above are facts.
        Here now is some conjecture.
        If he flew, he flew no further than on a half tank.
        300 miles.
        Colorado Springs where his old unit is.
        Where the museum dedicated to AF pilots is.

        But the more i look at flying the less likely it becomes.

        Lugnutz

        • Your link didn’t work but I get the gist. Drive or fly is hard to know for sure. It would help with distance by travel speculation but I just leave it out as part of my solve. I can’t figure it out in any way.