Odds n Ends About Fenn’s Treasure Hunt…Part Thirty One

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564 thoughts on “Odds n Ends About Fenn’s Treasure Hunt…Part Thirty One

  1. In “Tea With Olga,” page 116, ‘It was bright and sunny when my little plane lifted off and headed north, and I looked forward to performing the promised duty. The billowing clouds seemed to frame the task ahead and with a small window open I enjoyed the ever present aromas of sage and juniper.’

    I’m a little confused. Would Mr. Fenn truly be able to smell these aromas while flying?

      • ‘It was bright and sunny when my little plane lifted off and headed north,…’

        In my opinion, I would think the runway would be free from trees. Would he be able to smell these aromas while flying?

        • I don’t know if he could smell them while flying, cabin pressure et al. But it looks to me that he is reminiscing and writing it from a completed experience perspective of a start to a finished flight. He starts off as ‘ it was a bright…” not, ” it is a bright” . Past tense writing reflection as aopposed to a present tense of reflecting. So, first he describes his takeoff , then flight ( clouds) then landing (smells). It’s just how I read it, I am not at all sure though.

          • There is no cabin pressure at the altitudes he was flying at. And yes, you certainly can smell it from the plane.

        • pdenver –

          In the book does he say where the “little plane lifted off” from?

          I am not asking about anyone’s guesses as to where he would have flown out of at the time. I am not looking for the crazy pseudo-military response that could follow. Just does the book name the town or airfield?

          Lugnutz

          • Olga lived behind Mr. Fenn’s art gallery. Olga’s wishes was to have Mr. Fenn spread her ashes on top of Taos Mountain. With this, where might you believe his plane was housed, if he said he headed north?

          • So folks he certainly can smell trees out of his window if he’s taking off from an airfield with trees nearby?

            Or how about this, his memory and imagination tells him he smells pine.

            Do you know JD and PD that and apple, potato and onion all taste the same? It’s only your sense of smell that influences you to believe they taste differently.

            Food for thought.

            Lugnutz

          • Although the town or airfield wasn’t stated in the book, it does state the flight would be 90 miles to get to Taos Mountain.

          • Lugnutz – heat rises right?
            ..and ‘smells’ are minute vibrating particles at the mercy of basic fundamental natural physics, which expand greatly within a less-dense atmospheric pressure ..?

            ..there-fore, more likely to have been ‘whiffed’ at a greater vertical height above sea-level?

            & if i’m wrong, jus sue Zap!!
            ..for presently inspiring global adventure & factual science to all us HoD realists here, on this small planet…

            ( ..i’m pretty sure he’s def guilty!!! 🙂 )

    • When taking off in an airplane ,going into the wind is the norm…the wind blowing through a valley of sage and junipers
      and then up a canyon wall or other obstacles would definitetly
      produce a plume of fragrance through the upper altitudes imo…..

    • Flying a small plane at low altitude (as F was known to do) is no different than driving a car down the highway – you’ll easily smell pine, sage, etc.

    • As he put it, over the sage/pinyon/juniper brushland it’s an “ever present aroma,” scentual wallpaper.

      It most jumps out and grabs you when the sun comes out after a good rain.

      JAKe

    • Using the teamwork approach eh?
      Yeah, I mean you can roundtable everyone one of Fenn’s chapters, hash & rehash a bunch of guesses.
      Maybe Seeker can discuss how each answer makes us feel about ourselves, but to what end?

      Thought Provoking, this is Fenn’s game if you ask me, which equates to GOOGLE search.
      Did ff mention something about movies lying to us/ nibbling on Oreos? A google search prompted me to a couple of comments from Mindy regarding something like an Oreo Theory—better still someone on the same thread made an argument regarding Campbell’s book ‘The Hero with a Thousand Faces’

      “Campbell explores the theory that important myths from around the world which have survived for thousands of years all share a fundamental structure”

      [kind of remember JD saying he anagramed the Authors name & that’s how come he’s lookin in Wyo]

  2. Doubtful that The Flyer required a closed flight deck window when flying his Piper. If pressurization isn’t required and the plane is flying at a low altitude, (14-15 thousand feet), it shouldn’t be a problem.

    Aromas must have been especially sweet up there!

    A question: Wasn’t there an issue about Taos Mt being Tribal Land …so he went on to release her remains at an alternate site?

    • I once flew in a ww2 Chinese built Russian Yak fighter plane (2 seater front and back) over all of Vancouver Island at really low altitude. I couldn’t smell anything outside the cockpit. No window open of course because it was one large sliding window. Pilot was a regular customer and took all my staff for a flight , one at a time. As soon as we landed ,without yet opening the the cockpit window, I could smell all the trees and plants around. He could possibly have had a small window open during flight.

    • SL –

      This is a fun conversation.
      There is no Taos Mountain. Taos Mountain is what the locals Puebloans use to refer to the part of the range that serves as a backdrop to Taos Pueblo. But each of those mountains and Peaks has a name. None of which are Taos.

      It makes sense that a local or someone who grew up there would use that term and makes sense the Fenn would repeat it.

      To answer you question Pueblo Peak is on res land, Wheeler and Lobo are not.

      It is my belief that Fenn would not condone violation tribal sanctity.

      Lugnutz

      • Lugnutz,

        Appreciate the clarification! I have understood it to be a subrange of Wheeler Peak. Costilla Creek from the North to Tres Rios S. ??

        Beautifully spiritual country no matter what it’s called!

        SL

      • I think Fenn must have known there is no Taos Mt,, that is why he used the term. I see several logical reasons for his doing so. And most likely, he would have gotten Olga’s ashes in Santa Fe, and flown out from whatever airport he housed his plane at. I’ve flown in a Cessna 172 over the everglades and smelled the night blooming jasmine in the cabin.

    • “Tea With Olga,” page 116, in part, ‘…her white bone fragments flittered through the small window and softly floated down to a place where the chamisa and mountain laurels were blooming, and chipmunks scurried around all year.’

        • How far would one be able to smell these aromas while flying? Distance/height and being able to smell these aromas, and at which point does one not smell these aromas while flying is throwing me off. Let’s say we drove by an area of said aromas, how far can one get before they can no longer smell them? It doesn’t seem very far at all. Then comparing said aromas from the air. Gosh.

        • If you open a window and try to dump an Urn full of ashes it will blow back at you. Mostly because even a small urn is bigger than the window of his plane will open and he’s going over 100 MPH. NEVER dump an ashtray out the window of your car. First because it just wrong and second because the ashes all blow back at you.

          • The ashes may have been placed in a small, simple container. A simple tilt of the plane may have made the process easier.

          • BB Cow,
            I think you’ve watched “the big lewboski” a few too many times.

            …IMO, it’s about history folks, Fenn states, “I’ve always had a love for history & that’s why I like to collect & talk about old things”

            Maybe his tale of Olga is really the story of a great artist Fenn knew & respected Georgia O’keeffe. Some articles ( Wiki, LA Times March 10, 1986) claim her ashes were scattered @ Ghost Ranch. Seems more likely her ashes were carried to the top The Pedernal

            https://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=gr&GRid=3484

          • Theycallme9clues –

            Great idea.
            Then who else is represented in hus stories?

            Lugnutz

      • I’ve been sitting on this for a year, but for Lugnutz’s benefit, please note: (W)hite (B)one (F)ragments (F)littered (T)hrough (T)he. WBFFTT. Compare with (not) far, but too far too walk. Still, I’m confident most will chalk this up to coincidence, not appreciating the statistical rarity.

        • Zap –

          Hey I agree the coincidence is striking, but it doesn’t mean it’s not coincidence, right?

          The question is where do you marry the letters to the map.
          Here’s one place the Clark Fork River valley.
          Town names:
          Noxon, Furlong, Belknap, Thompson Falls, Tuscor, Woodlin

          Now the new maps do not contain Noxon, but then it gets even more interesting because before Not Far you have Canyon Down. Just under the town names on the map if you look quickly down is:
          Couer D’Alene National Forest.

          Following your theory do we have WWWH? I’ve got an H with Heron, the first town in Montana as you enter from Idaho.

          It is worth noting that Trout Creek and White Pine are the town names that are left out.

          Go
          Lugnutz

        • Hi Lugnutz,

          That’s the problem with coincidences: they happen. That’s why there’s a word for it. And it is not always easy to differentiate a random rare occurrence from a deliberate one. At least in the case of English prose, one can assess probabilities. And we have a lot of Fenn prose to draw on: two books, nearly 200 Scrapbooks, all the MW Weekly Words and Q&A, Vignettes, Speed Bumps, and on and on. It’s not quite to the point of a million monkeys on a million typewriters eventually typing out a Shakespeare sonnet, but one must be mindful of the frequency of certain events eventually happening just because you’ve thrown the dice a lot of times.

          Such chance alignments become quite a bit more interesting when an aberration is tossed in to boot (such as For Whom the Bell Tolls being the wrong book). Still, one must be careful when trying to get through the dumb barbed wire fence.

        • Zap… a year is a long time to sit on the egg.
          Time to throw it out cause it probably ain’t gonna hatch at this point. jes kidding man… carry on.

  3. In the same chapter, “Tea With Olga,” I’m sure many have noticed the three different teas; red, black, and green. In the past, I had said to myself, “They’re assorted teas. This sounds like ‘a sorte/sortie(s).” Other times, I had thought of their gathering as a ceremony. On page 116, ‘The tea drinking rituals we always enjoyed had somehow become necessities.’ I’ve noticed the mountains/peaks with said names. There were times I’ve wondered if they were the colors of ski trails.

    • Pdenver –

      I have a solve with ski trails and no one (Jake) really liked that idea. The final run is called Rainbows End. It’s a classic case of seeing what I want to see right?

      Speaking of drinking in Sante Fe
      Have you ever read my story about the man in Sante Fe?

      Lugnutz

      • Sounds like an interesting solve, Lugnutz. Have you continued with it?

        I don’t recall if I have read the story, Lugnutz.

        • pdenver –

          About 30 years ago I took an epic trip across America with 4 friends. We blazed out across the west on Route 66. Chicago to California. Then up Cally and back across through the Badlands etc. Because we were young men our parents set us up with relatives and friends that we could check in with if we had an emergency.

          My father set me up with Korean War veterans all over the place.

          Sante Fe

          We pulled up in front of a house with no grass. I mention the grass because we had never scene rocky front yards. We were greeted by a man and woman that were my parents age. They prepared a dinner for us of spaghetti and a huge salad. Now the man was eccentric. First he felt it necessary to pontificate on the virtues of a good meal and then he imparted moral lessons. Most of that nonsense is a blur now. But here is the part I remember every day since.

          He served us drinks in ice cold frosted metal cups.

          “I keep the metal cups in the freezer. This way you don’t need to have any ice and the ice won’t dilute what you’re drinking.”

          Which begs the question:
          What do they put in the water in Sante Fe?

          Lugnutz

          • I think a better question might be, “Wouldn’t one’s lips stick to the metal cup?”

            I like the story you’ve told.

      • Yeah I looked over the exact same solution because of some odd things Forrest once said on a family ski trip, but it never came to a golden end.

        • Iron Will –

          The image of Fenn gliding down the hill to his car the second time after hiding the TC is priceless.

          Lugnutz

      • You aren’t alone Lug. Had one of those solves awhile back. And like you, I was seeing what I wanted to see right. Probably not the same place as you, but at that time saw hints to make me think. I quickly dismissed the thought, but thought none the less.

    • Yep – hard to put a finger on a map without finding at least two if not all three of those colors as named mountains, buttes, rivers or creeks, and often with a Brown this or that in the vicinity too.

      The grouping I found most compelling (because it reinforced a path we were already working, rather than suggesting one) – the GREEN River and the BLACK River feed Flaming Gorge, and the GREEN River then exits Flaming Gorge through RED Canyon before flowing through BROWN Park.

      But there are many others . . . .

      JAKe

      • Purple mountain in Yellowstone.(purple + yellow = Brown) Your right, so many others.

    • Hi all, Has anyone else noticed a parallel between the tea colors and the books he got at the bookstore? Red/For Whom The Bell Tolls (death,war); Black/Great Gatsby (sophisticated, comfortable, roaring ’20s); Green/Catcher in the Rye (meadow). Indicative of phases, journeys, choices? Just my thoughts 🙂

  4. Alsetenash,

    pdenver exceeds my ability on several levels……daily!

    Always a joy ~

    SL

    • Thank you for the kind words, my friend. I believe it is I who is trying to catch up to yours.

    • Nice! She seems to be one that would appreciate my analysis of poem solution. It is of the same frequency of thought. Right brain imagination with left brain analysis. Ode to the pineal.

      • The when is tied to the where. There are many places in the Rocky Mountains where warm waters halt, Therefore, the where is tied to the when. In my opinion of course.

      • Warm waters have already halted in our area. Deer valley is part of the Yellowstone Geyser system. Just dormant now. (warm waters halt), (a place that is “dear” to him…Deer)
        A place that is dear to him, to rest his bones
        (Deer Lodge)
        Jake’s a little East of me, but same general area.
        The where is tied into the place that is “dear” to him, Not when.

        • I keep a list of people who have posted comments here which have opened several doors to my understanding. Charlie is now 3rd on that list. My intent is to share the credit and gold with those individuals who significantly helped me along the way, even if what they’ve said has sparked new ideas.

          My interest in the Deer Lodge area starts at Hillcrest Cemetery. I hope to spend some time up there next week .

          • Ryan, start in Anaconda. There is an old “hardware” store on front and main st. across from warm spring creek. It use to be a train station, built by a guy named Robert Nickel. (covers some of Fenn’s stories) warm waters, a halt, nickels, first clue nailed down, and the entrance way- two omegas. Just a thought. If you decide to check, you then have two gulches to choose from for the canyon down. Take the road less travelled. The third clue is just inside the tree line. No worries, everyone goes in anyway.
            Ohh, before you go into the canyon down, you can park your car at the church. Good luck.

          • Charlie –

            I can’t know how much time you have spent studying Anaconda and the BAP railway and I hope you do not mind if I add this.

            Butte Anaconda and Pacific was the first railway to transition to electric from steam.

            The building you want to think about is the original BAP office building that is white. It housed the station in its original location and also the showers. I cannot recall the intwrsection butbits west of the current station.

            Lugnutz

          • Yah, what’s with A in the side of the hill In Anaconda, looks like “L A z ” we just have to BElieve its being spelled out for us lol.

          • Actually Lug, the building is red. Turned into a hardware store in 1955 I believe. Or, it was no longer a station in 1955. One of those things. Also has a train car as a museum around there.
            The end is ever drawing nigh could refer to Mount Haggin.
            (the end I sever drawing nig/h, ends with nig)

          • Charlie –

            I am referring to the original bldg at the corner of Locust and Commercial. Thats literally where the waters halted.

            It may be red today, still white in Google street view.

            Lugnutz

          • aMp, are you saying b laze? :A lazy “b” would look like a nine. Lol, maybe the blaze has a nine in it. Or at least the marvel gaze.
            Could you imagine if the “marvel gaze” turned out to be a 97. Would make me research “Upon Appleton House”, for sure.

    • Jake, you asked when are the creeks going to dry up in Montana?”
      The answer depends upon prior snowfall, average daily temps, and how steep the slope. There are thousands of mapped creeks in Montana. Which River’s watershed does your Creek lie within?

      • It’s a long run off season Ande.
        Your effort will be worth the cold.
        Got to get wet on the way to the chest somewhere.

        • Jake, getting wet is not required. It could be that the “logical” or “visual” path to the TC is across
          a body of water. But a searcher could take an
          alternate route. I say this based on experience.
          Good luck in your solving & searching. All IMO.

          • Not too far, yet in getting there on foot could deem one vulnerable to higher levels of unsafe conditions.

            Taking a longer walk or other method to reach the destination…. being the better option.

          • I thought that when he talked about making sure that you put a belt around the top of the waders to keep them from filling with water if you fell, was a indicator that you might have to cross a stream of water, although it must not be too deep or fast. Remember it has to be safe for an 80- somewhere when an older person could fly fish IMO

          • Not Obsessed,
            I guess we could read into it that way.
            I guess we could take the idea of leaving bear cubs alone as part of the solve as well. Or take plenty of water, or a tracking device etc etc. as needed things to solve/travel the clues.

            I think, fenn is simply implying that searchers have attempted these types of action, and no matter if on a search or just fishing, it’s a good practice in-case something happens.

            However, other comments and warnings have been told.. such as… don’t go where an 80yr old man carrying a heavy backpack can’t go. For me it make perfect sense not to attempt water with extra weight.

            I personally doubt that fenn or a searcher was/is to travel through water with a heavy backpack and need waders belted tight to do so in the process of a solve. The indicator here [belt up the waders] is a reminder to think safety at all times… not unlike, bring plenty of water with you, line of thinking.

            Of course, IMO.
            But the one thing we should keep in mind is fenn’s comment; “I’ve said things people think are clues.”
            Not everything the man says relates to the poem’s solve… sometimes its just a simple suggestion and common sense.

          • Yeah the geezer carrying 22 pounds raised his sack over hus head to ford a stream and plummet behind the wayer fall!

            TWICE!!!

  5. All,
    With respect to what one can smell through the small open window of a Piper Malibu (check out the photo of F sitting in the cockpit…it is in TTOTC), remember that hints are “sprinkled” throughout the book.
    Geoff
    “Have flashlight, will travel”

  6. Just for clarification, it is only 69 miles to the summit of Pueblo Peak, Aka Taos mountain, it is directly east of Taos Pueblo, and is a Sacred Shrine to the continuously inhabited pueblo people celebrated for millennia, so remember it is only 90 miles to the Colorado Border, and Wheeler, NM’s highest peak is 79 miles as crow flies, all of these are from Santa Fe Airport, NM. and yes all of the mentioned smells are on these two mountains, they are within the Enchanted Circle.
    http://enchantedcircle.org/page.php?p=maps

    These are mountains are watershed to both the Rio Grande and Cimarron River, and Mora River.

    Now those three T’s could be traffic control devices if you use your imagination.

    Tom T

  7. AkB-1138

    it never ceases to amaze me (in my reluctant ‘roaring’ 40’s) how frequently intellectual emphasis is so readily caste upon the importance of ‘profoundly complicated’ words possessing more than several syllables

    ..i mean, esp given the fact that the simplest words still weigh the biggest truths, by far

    ( ..btw, watz a ‘noun’ again? ..sounds mysteriously compliclamated 🙂 )

    • oh wait.. i actually meant to say ‘complimacated’..i think?
      ( ..is that even a word?)

      ( ..darn those ancient Sumerians!! ..for inventing ‘language’ and other random trouble-some geometry stuff too, probably!! 🙁 )

      ( ..i mean, what were they even thinking back then!!?)

      ( golly.. if only they’d known!!.. 🙂 )

    • I attempted to pronounce a 5 syllable word once and got a hernia.
      So I tend to sway away from any word with more than four letter-s. Don’t need to hit me 2 time-s in the head with a tire tool.

      • you guys need some sleep. Wait, I’m up too. Time to hit the coffin, until tonight…

      • Seeks – i totally agree with your analogy re: mutli-syllable words being painfully head-ache inductive..

        i mean.. it’s almost as annoying as not having a coffee-cup holder in our pre-ordered 2018 Ferrari Enzo convertibles 🙁

        ( ..fact!! 🙂 )

  8. Mr. Hobbit,
    I never worry. It’s the gingerbread man’s own fault if he was caught and eaten by the fox.

    To keep this chase related and Goofy off my butt, I’ll say the gingerbread man probably shoulda dressed like a hound to keep out of the fox’s jaws.

    If in Vegas, gotta catch my friend Scott Nicholson at Harrah’s Dueling Pianos, if he’s still there. One of the world’s best dueling pianists. 🙂

  9. I told myself if I didn’t find the chest on my next trip that I would buy “Too far to walk” and some fireworks. Have a nice 4th of July weekend everybody!
    (Wow, 278 pages vs. 147 for TTOTC, I’ve got some reading to do…)

    -Randawg.

  10. Goofy, back on 24th you posted a link to Mr. Fenn’s response “http://www.friendsofpast.org/forum/mother.html” – The Mother of Indiana Jones. I just wanted to say thank you for doing that. Great insight into how he goes about his business. It solidifies/confirms for me that he “knows his stuff”.

    If any searcher thinks picking up Indulgence will be a “walk in the park”, my opinion is that they should rethink their solution to the poem. It is obvious to me that he knows how to do research and how to use words to his advantage. As the saying goes, “there is more than meets the eye” going on in the poem.

    • zen-guru-Mindy

      ‘have Michael Bolton LP’s – will endlessly broad-cast on all major frequencies if absolutely necessary’ .. 🙁 !!

      ..jus sayin’ 🙂

      • if ya haven’t even heard of MB yet, then you’ve been extremely lucky in life, so far

        – fact! 🙂

  11. Manitou Springs to Cripple Creek. There’s a wonderful Southwestern Native American Art Show in Cripple Creek. Some Remingtons and Russels on display above the Railroad .

    Brad

  12. I came across a book from over the weekend that was from the 1930s. It is amazing how many references there are to the same words in the poem! Some of the same words are shown in italics – so I bought it.

    • If it weren’t for your name, covert one, I’d be really upset at the trade. How about a fun hint at the title. 🙂

      • Ryan – it’s too good of a find to provide a hint at the title. Curiously, I have to ask – what it is about the name Covert One that offers such immunity from emotion due to the trade?

        • Sorry about that. I meant to say tease. Dang autocorrect…

          I was playfully angry when I read the post in my email but then hit reply and saw that it was from “covert one”. After seeing that I figured the “tease” was just staying true to your name. 🙂

  13. Happy 4th of July to everyone, Thank God its still the freest place on Earth. utH

  14. Hi folks! Just wanted to mention that I’ve finally been able to give a thorough check of the solve area that I’ve been chomping at the bit to search and came up empty. But I did get in a very nice side-hike, so it wasn’t a loss of a trip. I still really like my search area, but will study it again with fresh eyes to see if there’s anything else I can work out from it.

    I think the strongest negative against my solve was that it did not pass the “80-year-old” man test (although on a map it looked like it was fine). This led me to realize how difficult it is to determine if one’s solve area passes the “80-year-old man” test without BOTG. Topographic maps or GE just don’t go into enough detail, so it’s a gamble until you are actually on site.

    Ah well, it’s back to the drawing board for me, but I feel so much better getting that search out of my system after being pent up all winter! Maybe I can get in some nice, non-search-related hikes in this season now! I love the Rockies! Hope everyone had a Happy 4th! 🙂

    • Glad you were able to go back and check out your area, Blex. Hope you have a lot of fun with the non-search-related hikes.

      • Thanks, Pdenver! For starters, I’m planning to do my 21st hike up to the summit of Pikes Peak next week with a group of friends, so hopefully the weather stays pleasant!

        • From what I saw on the news, looks like everything should be a go for you and your friends. With the hot temperatures we’ve been getting, the hike to the summit should be refreshing. Hope the view is spectacular for you.

  15. Two questions:

    1) Can someone tell me how to replace my square design name thing with an image so as to be recognizable?

    2) Regarding bears – say you’re going to be out for 4-6 hours. Does having food (say, a sandwich) make a bear encounter more likely than not having food? Or are they unlikely to come close to humans regardless?

    • Go to Gravatar.com and sign up/add image, if the Bear is hungry enough I’m certain it would consider a fight for the sandwich. Carry Bear Spray! Smell like bug spray! Don’t rub sandwiches all over your self and run through the woods singing “the hills are alive” and you’ll be just fine.

    • Yeah — skip the sardines! For your point #1, you can upload an image to associate with your avatar via WordPress.com.

      • Toby –

        I wasnt able to leave a comment on yiur site?
        Fenn talks about the Little Popo Agie which is a different river and does not enter the sinks.

        Lugnutz

        • @Lug Don’t think Tuby likes to be corrected! LOL! I pointed out a few mistakes he’d made and got no reply…..

          • Hey if he is on to something I do not want him diving down the incorrect rabbit hole!

          • Here’s our stated policy on comments:

            “Our policy on comments on our videos: All comments require approval to publish. Comments that do not add to conversation are deleted. Commenters who consistently do not add to the conversation are blocked.”

            Sorry Cholly, yours was psycho-babble, and you weren’t a subscriber, so, to paraphrase “Forged in Fire,” you didn’t make the cut.

            Try again sometime. Try to be more rational.

      • And this is the reason Bear Spray is so effective on this particular animal and others as well. I carry counter assault brand and can say it sure does the trick. I had an accident with the safety off a few times when the terrain got technical and I now know it’s capabilities ; ). If a multi day camp/hike I would consider two cans and use one can to dose a few trees in the area away from camp during the overnight, and make sure you point it down wind, but you won’t see any critters that night regardless of which way you spray it.

  16. FF has always said you have to know where to begin or else stay home. That (along with some other quotes) made me think that maybe he’s hinting at GPS coordinates. With that in mind I ended up with the below location. I’d love to check it out, but I’m in the east and I can’t even tell from google earth if you could drive a sedan on this road in the summer let alone in any type of weather. Would be unfortunate to take time off form work/family and find out you’d need a military vehicle to navigate the road. So, if you’re in the area, feel free to check it out to see if other clues fit and, if you find it, I’ll only require a 50% cut (ha).

    French Creek Rd, Montana, USA
    Latitude: 45.35718 North
    Longitude: 112.90176 West

  17. Hi folks,
    I’m a long time listener, first time caller.
    I have a question for everyone.
    Does anyone know the significance of ‘If you are brave and in the wood’?
    I mean, really knows. Not just a hunch.
    I’m not looking for someone to tell me about it, just want to know if someone ‘really knows’.

      • What did you expect? Someone to raise their hand frantically yelling Oh! oh! I do, I do…
        Just like anything else related to this challenge… will anyone “really know” anything at all, unless the chest is found?

    • Oh ! I know ! …..Nobody knows except Fenn…and he isn’t saying. Eventually though…someone here will tell you that they do.

    • Santiago – given that it’s so obvious to everyone here that i ‘really know’ stuff.. i’d accurately assume that ‘brave and in the woods’ means ‘actions speak louder than words’ ..imho

      oh wait!? – or did you mean ‘RARELY knows’ ??
      ( ..in-which-case, ya better call Dal 🙂 )

      ( ..ummm – uh-oh!! 🙁 )

    • Yes it means don’t be afraid to walk in the woods or camp in the woods where u get no cell service. And be brave and make your own trail. Except in Yellowstone park obey the rules and stay on the trails Be brave but also be safe

    • Do you “know” “really know”? Do you know for a fact what the significance of “If you are brave and in the wood” refers to or means?

      • I have my solve for the clue ‘brave and in the wood’. My question is, has anyone else found it?

        • No. No one else has found your solve for the clue ‘brave and in the wood’.

        • Santiago, where are you from? I lived in the Dominican Republic for a couple years and found the people to be very blunt and curt.

          For example, when I walked down the street with my companion who was 300+ pounds at 5′ 10″, the kids would start yelling in spanish, “here comes number 10.” Turns out, I was the 1 at 6′ even/145 pounds and my companion was the zero. Then they’d walk up to him and say in Spanish, “How in the world did you get so fat?!

          It seemed rude, but that was not their intention. These were kids who lived in homes with dirt floors near the river in Los Minas and were so generous and caring that hey would often offer us the only food they had for the day. The adults were more tactful but not by much.

          To me, your posts have come across as trolling. I loathe internet trolls. Can’t stand ’em. But if that wasn’t your intent and we’re dealing with a misunderstanding due to cultural differences then I apologize for my flippant sarcasm. If you, however, are indeed trolling then you should go somewhere else.

          That being said, you won’t be convincing this audience that you’ve successfully solved ANY of the clues, let alone identified any of them, unless you have the chest. For me, claiming such comes off as pretentious and feels like taunting. That’s why I always tell my boys to say things like, “I think I’ve figured out” or “I read somewhere” or “today we learned that” or “I’m almost positive”. Knowing is so very different from thinking you know, and my boys are teenagers so they think they know everything.

          • I asked a question. If it’s not relevant to you, move on.
            Troll? Dominican? Really.

          • Ryan D – troll much??

            i personally enjoyed Santiago’s comments/valid questioning, and would someday love to visit Chile and Her mountainous Andes regions on a cheap motor-cycle in my near future 🙂

            although (given your above submission) i’ll def diligently attempt to avoid any local junk-food outlets 🙁

            [note to self: don’t anticipate a xmas-card from Ryan D anytime soon 🙂 ]

        • Hi Santiago
          The answer to your question is yes, I have(IMO). I have a question for you. Have you been to all of the locations that the clues refer to leading up to “brave and in the wood” ?

          • Hi Whitecrow.
            I haven’t been to the location, or its predecessors. I mistakenly over shot it.
            Ended up a mile off course.
            Have you?

          • Santiago,
            Yes I have. It has taken me 4 years to get there by following the poem.

    • Santiago,
      You seem to want confirmation of your interpretation of “brave and in the wood” or you want to know if someone else has arrived at the same solution. To get a viable answer you will have to tell us what you think it means.
      Can you say in a general way without giving away your search area?

      -Randawg.

  18. (I thought I posted this, but can’t find it)

    Did anyone else notice that the 5.8M earthquake yesterday was near Finn, MT (and Finn Mountain)? There was a solve posted regarding that area. Is Indulgence quivering? hehe

    Also, it had me chuckling that the recent tale of two solves included most of my solve in the first, and a good chunk of Jake’s in the second. (I don’t think I’m giving anything away there.) We’re on the trail Jake my friend (to, at minimum some awesome hikes).

    • No debate about it Joseph.
      I cannot argue with anything you have to say.
      I’m also chuckling.

      We are on the right track.

  19. Has anyone given any thought to the line(s):
    “So why is it that I must go and leave my trove for all to seek?”

    As you notice, I typed it as one line, since there is no punctuation mark after go.

    As one sentence, one might ask, “Why must I leave my trove for all to seek?”

    Why did Forrest need to put the “GO and” in the middle of this sentence?

    Does “go” and “leave” (Both appear to mean the same thing) together mean something different than either “go” or “leave” separately?

    Could “go” and “leave” together make it past tense? Such that the line now
    reads: “So why have I LEFT my trove for all to seek?”

    Just something to ponder. Any discussion? I find it interesting. JDA

    • OK… As I have gone vs. So why is it I must go
      Might be part of the answer[s]

      Are they [ i ] one in the say?
      The past tense of the first line of the poem doesn’t seem to match the question of why fenn going and leaving his trove…
      Sure we know he did what he did and the reason it all start in the first place [ the kick off, if you will ]
      But, it sounds like two different events…
      Why would fenn ask us this far into the poem a question {?} about why he did what he did? Then adding that the answers he knows are… tired and weak.

      It would be a complete useless stanza if it was not important.
      It appears to have no rhyming quality needed from stanza 4 to 6. It doesn’t appears to be directional information in nature [such as canyon down] It doesn’t seem to hold hints of information that stanza 6 seems to have [such as cold or brave or in the wood]

      Yet, fenn has told us it would be risky to discount words. That’s four lines, two sentences, and 29 words ~that don’t appear to do much at all, as far as, using them as “clues” that get you “closer” to the chest OR “hints” that “help” with the clues.
      Why even ask the question when we seeeemingly have been told why he did go and leave his trove, and for us to easily dismiss 29 words.
      https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=7&ved=0ahUKEwiooP67jPjUAhUCKyYKHTpOAQAQtwIITzAG&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DGIDEMgBATCg&usg=AFQjCNFxwj4eWPwIfTN5ixxMybAYutRmew

      You almost have to think tired and weak is something needed to be solved, or, we need to count this stanza?

      LOL, but if ya really want a dilemma… why are we told knowing about riddles will not assist, then later, told we need to figure out the riddle in the poem.

      JDA, There is more to this stanza…IMO… that go and leave. The “answers” might be the key.

      • I agree Seeker. The answers I already KNOW.
        I’ve done it tired, and now I’m weak.

        I can dig what you are suggesting. Tired and weak also probably mean more than they appear to mean at first glance. But what do I KNOW? Nada JDA

      • I believe that those two lines speak of two entirely different things.
        —-So why is it I must go, and leave my trove… —-
        talks of the physical path/location within the poem’s clues. I’m not suggesting it is a clue, just that it references them in that way.

        —-As I have gone alone in there, and with my treasures bold…—- Is referencing something completely different. Since Forrest said in the interview that WWWH is THE first clue, I have to assume that the first stanza is a hint on where to find the path of the poem’s nine clues, but in an indirect way. At least that’s my opinion on the matter.

        • This is how I took the first stanza relating to “where warm waters halt,” too. Once the desert was taken out, I feel I’m back to square one.

      • Seeker, thank you for the link. It’s been a while since I heard it last. He tells us what to do, my problem is common sense was mentioned, and I think I lost that a few months into the Chase. My mother would call me an “intellectual idiot,” but not meaning as what the definition is. She would say I was smart, but when it came to common sense, I didn’t have any. I think I’m in trouble.

      • Seeker, I like the way you think and your comments always seem to generate good discussion.

        Fenn has told us it would be risky to discount words and we know BIWWWH is the first clue.

        Stanza 4 has one taking the chest and going in peace, which IMO seems logically to be the last clue because it’s solved if you are at the chest and the clues are in consecutive order, so no more clues after that.

        But that leaves 3 stanzas that would then have no clues and alot of discounted words and that doesn’t seem right

        • davzona;

          I agree. My solution was to move stanza’s 5 and 6 to on top of stanza #1. Since I believe that the architecture of the poem is a circle, I do not believe that I ha “messin'” with the poem. Doing this, also places a question as the first line of the poem (riddle) like almost all riddles do – ask a question first.
          It works for me. JDA

          • Thanks WindyCity – It is nice to know that I am not the only one wearing this funny jacket with the arms tied in back. 🙂 JDA

        • You read Seekers comments?
          Do you mean all the way through to the end?

          I have come close but i have never been able to do it

      • Speaking of tired and weak – – – Seeker, have you ever been so tired and weak that you felt like you could just lie down and go to sleep in the middle of a wet and soggy rice paddy? I can remember several times I felt like that in Nam. Not good memories. JDA

        • I know about tired and weak…I just don’t think they mean the same in the poem.
          One simple explanation is… age, and what fenn done through the ages.. respectfully his memoirs [life]. And, the lead into the poem, at age almost-eighty It was time to act… it sounds like the answers refer to the book itself, but without the poem as the blueprint the book is basically useless [by itself].

          On the flip side; the stanza could be saying we need to understand that tired and weak relate to something we need to know about… another words… seeing the poem and clues through fenn’s eyes. Which might give insight to what the heck riches new and old mean.
          I mean, the man is telling us he is hinting about something! And seeing the contents of the chest have notta to do with the location of the place the chest lays in wait…

          I highly doubt that riches new and old refer to ~ the new riches to the finder and old things fenn left in the chest… In my mind that is another example of a wasted stanza and 25 more words… lol, so far that’s 59 words just tossed aside for stanzas 1 and 5 if remotely true… add stanza 6 as the same and we have another 29 words.. totaling 88 words that are not so helpful. I’m not by into that thought process.

    • JDA, we have spent years going back and forth with meanings, tenses, poetic uses, etc….and breaking down the lines for their face value to no prevail. Are we reading the poem wrong???
      Face value has gotten us nowhere, so many people, so much research, and nothing.
      I think it’s time to read the poem entirely different. Face value or whatever seems like a long, dragged out rabbit hole. instructions exist, or at least it’s a popular theory, we need to be drastic. Taking this at face value is like debating clue vs. hint, or down vs. south, or done at 16th line why the extra stanzas.
      IMO, taking this for face value ends your hunt at line 16. That is a ridiculous thought. He must be saying something else instead of, “just take the chest and go in peace”. If the chest is not there, then what is he saying? Where is the instructions?
      If “in” is an instruction, then we would put “and go” in the word “peace”. Is this what we have to do? It works out to something, so maybe. I never knew “hest” was a word, with the “c” in front of it, maybe it’s “see”.
      Just take the hest p-a-g-e-n-o-a-d-c-e.
      Of course, unless you believe in the numbers thing this won’t make sense. It is a possibility.
      Face value has put us where? A lot of great vacations, but has anyone really found the blaze, or know what it looks like? I think it’s the 4th clue, did someone find it but didn’t know? Can we really know what it is from the poem? No… Some say that some of the clues have to be solved with BOTG. Okay, that means that those clues are not solved by the poem, so does that mean the obvious, poem doesn’t solve the clues? We will leave our house to go to an exact spot, but cannot solve all the clues? We cannot start in the middle and look for the blaze. Why? can we not solve the blaze with the poem? Obviously not. If someone did solve for the correct blaze, why not start there? Forget all the WWWH guesses, I got the blaze, right?
      If we could solve all the clues with the poem, we could start in the middle, or end for that fact. Are we suppose to solve one clue after the other? To arrive at line 16 and quit? Seems ridiculous to me. The best answer is that we are reading the poem entirely wrong, taking it for face value. You cannot solve all the clues with the poem. Another way has to be used to find an exact spot that you can be totally confident in. The answers he already knows and done it tired and now I’m weak have nothing to do with what he knows and how he feels. If you believe that then you probably have another 7 years of quality vacation time in your future, but no chest.

      • Charlie;

        An interest write-up – – but, what “Information have you given us? You say, “I think it’s time to read the poem entirely different. Face value or whatever seems like a long, dragged out rabbit hole. instructions exist, or at least it’s a popular theory, we need to be drastic. Taking this at face value is like debating clue vs. hint, or down vs. south, or done at 16th line why the extra stanzas.”

        How do “we need to be dramatic?” I know you rely a lot on numbers – is this the “Dramatic” you speak of? If so, how does one extrapolate numbers from the poem? Sorry, numbers are not in my vocabulary…they just do not compute for me.

        I agree, stopping at line 16 (in the original poem lay-out) is not the answer, Stopping at line 16, with my 561234 stanza layout seems to make a LOT of sense. I have worked my way through the six stanza’s – every line – every sentence, every word, and IF I have found it, I”Just take the chest and go in peace.” IF I have NOT found it, As per Forrest’s instructions, I go back to clue #1 – “So why is it that I must go And leave my trove for all to seek?”
        That is MY “Dramatic” way of reading the poem and solving the clues in the poem – My way of solving the riddles. JDA

          • YES, I KNOW that Forrest recently said that BIWWWH is clue #1. Maybe the contents of MY stanza #1 and #2 (formerly stanza #5 and6) are “hints” and the first “Real Clue” (set of directions) is BIWWWH. Works for me. JDA

      • I wish I could argue what you said charlie & others but cannot do so anymore cause I know.

      • Charlie,
        While on a different reading aspect idea… maybe we don’t need to read it completely different?

        Just for grins, a quick summary; We are told it risky to ‘discount’ words.. The poem has all the information to ‘find’ the chest [ i think that is important to point out ]
        The poem will lead one to the chest and the book will help with the clues.. “clues” will get one to the chest but hints will help with the clues.. Told we should have certainty beforehand etc etc.

        OK so we have clues that need interpretation and some have actually done that [from what fenn has stated] we also have, in theory, all the clues can be deciphered from home [prior]. And we have fenn saying that as many has the first four clues might have been solved [ but he might not know if those who have actually know it ].

        How can the poem give us that certainty beforehand?

        In my prior post chatting with JDA, I mentioned the amounts of word per stanza [ for stanzas 1 5 and 6 ] each stanza contains four lines with a ‘word’ counts for each line Example; stanza 6 is, 7787. While these numbers may not be considered part of the 9 clues that we are told we need to ‘decipher,’
        Could they be part of that “certainty beforehand” of the path we need to take?

        Could the be four digit numbers be elevation points that are used to help the searcher know which clues are at those location or visa versa? A check and balance of the correct clues solved, line of thinking? But not “clues” that will “lead” to the chest.

        I haven’t eliminated the possibility of number usage in the poem… i’m just not sure how to use them if I find them. However, the magic word here is “find” them… within the “blueprint” of the architect’s poem… and not code them into use.

        This thought still leaves a straightforward reading of the “clue” to be deciphered… but with a check and balance for that feeling of certainty [prior].

        But wait Seeker… there’s only 6 stanzas and 9 clues, right? Well, it seems that the first two clues can be found [to start with].. no real need for elevations for two clues, and IF the blaze is found and the chest is right there.. no real need for that clue’s elevation to be known as well, right? [ I mean, we should have been wise enough to find it ]… that leave 6 clues with elevation points to help on the certainty part of a “general solve”

        Just thought of why each word was “deliberate” it would be ‘risky to discount them’ the poem was written ‘by an architect’ [ a blueprint ] The ‘poem is a map’ and a map is a map the more ‘detailed’ the make the better.. if you have the ‘right map’

        Good references are the book, GE… and/or… a good map. What does GE do, that it might take many ‘good maps’ to do over a certain area… elevation as it zooms in? No matter what type of mapping is used…

        Yep, just me rumbling and rambling again… attempting to see how everything works together.

        • Seeker,
          One suggestion, regarding your “the clues can be deciphered from home”…
          IMO, the first (critically important) clue, and perhaps an additional clue or two, can be located from home. IMO, the rest of the clues can be located on our favorite map only after visits to the Rockies. IMO, it takes a combination of research and searching to locate these additional clues.
          Geoff
          “Have flashlight, will travel”

          • Geoff, and that’s what I’m saying. All the clues cannot be solved from home with the poem. We were told everything is in the poem, and 9 clues. So, of course everyone tries to solve the 9 clues. But it can’t happen. We need a new way to decipher the poem, and trying to do it by the 9 clues hasn’t worked. That’s not to say that some clues cannot be solved, just that since we can get an exact spot from home with the poem, there is another way to achieve that.
            So, JDA, that is what I was saying. What info have I given you? Maybe the most important, that’s all…

          • Geoff,

            Q~How much progress can be made by someone just thinking and searching the Internet from home? (Another way of saying this: How many clues can only be decoded in situ?) 
            A~ FF: All of them, in theory, but not likely in practice. A searcher must go to the site to find the treasure.
            ———————————————–
            I don’t know about anyone else… but that seems to say, clues can be figured out at home, prior to a search, before botg, with that certainty beforehand thought… but… to actually “find” the chest a searcher must go to the site. It doesn’t matter what we actually use as far as maps or the book or the poem or combination of…

            If it takes you extra trips to fit all the pieces together, fine. But that doesn’t mean it’s a must [ or as you stated… only after visits to the Rockies ].

            If we want to argue that the clues must be used to get to the chest, I agree.
            Is it involving stomping out clues only? I have my major doubts.
            Does it involve the use of the clues in another manner [ or at least some of the clues ] I would say that is very plausible and should be considered for thought.

          • Seeker one of my favorite sayings is “The greatest obstacle to discovering the truth is being convinced you already know it. So I give thought to your suggestions and what if’s. Some of them are interesting.

            You say you are opened minded and only looking for answers with your WHAT IF’s. But yet you insists it can be solved from home and folks stomping out the clues are wasting their time.

            WHAT IF……….the poem is straight forward with no subterfuge in sight.

            WHAT IF…. the chase was created for explorers not couch potatoes.

            WHAT IF the reason the little girl from India, Arab kid from Marrakech, and boy from Waxahachie can’t get any closer than the first two clues is because you need to be on location to solve the poem.

            WHAT IF the reason all the searchers that solved the first two clues and walked past the chest did so because of their predetermined solutions.

            WHAT IF……a map is needed for the first two clues and imagination needed on location to see what Fenn sees.

            WHAT IF….it’s not a coincidence that he came out with the first two clues statement about the same time his doctor told him he needed to get away from the computer because it’s unhealthy.

            WHAT IF….the geniuses here tried to figure out where all the searchers were that solved the first two clues and sent someone there with some imagination to find the chest.

            You can theoretically become a brain surgeon from home, but like finding the chest, it’s highly unlikely. Just my opinion.

          • What if–no subterfuge in sight was a hint in itself? Isn’t subterfuge intended to be out of sight?

            And for the record, the world would be a very scary place with train-at-home brain surgeons. 🙂

          • Charlie: reiterating my long-standing opinion–the entire poem can be solved from home. Forrest has admitted it’s theoretically possible. Consider what that means. It’s a tremendous admission!! Take any candidate solution: could it have THEORETICALLY been solved from home? If not, then in consideration of Forrest’s remark, it cannot be right. That’s a pretty powerful litmus test.

          • Goofy,
            # 1 WhatIF… straightforward mean without intend to deceive, honest, truthful… I think we over estimate the thought of ‘what took me so long?’ and straightforward to be the opposite of ‘difficult but not impossible’ As you have said in the past… in the end, the solve would be elegant and understandable… But, is the process of getting there so easy?

            WhatIF # 2… lol… kinda kills the use of a vehicle for driving out any clues. Yet, why are some trying to get around fenn’s Q&A about all the clues from home, in theory, can be decode, but for practical results… we need to go to the site and do it.
            Does that mean it’s a cake walk right through the clues… nope.. but it seems to me, we would have a great understanding of how it all comes together from that couch.
            [ although, I can argue both sides in regards to needing to see the clues as well. I think we need to utilize the clues in some form or another].

            WhatIF #3 ~ see above.

            WhatIF #4 LOL can’t argue that one… we have seen all the know-it-alls dropping left and right… The video of the reverse bike and fenn’s comment “best adjust” say it all. [note; I never claimed to have know anything… but I will place information we have been given for a good argument… one way or the other]

            WhatIF #5 Again, even though we should be able to decipher what the clues refer to at home [prior and per fenn’s comment ] that doesn’t mean the solve doesn’t need some kind of action in the field. It just means we have an understand of ‘what the clues refer to’… common sense say we need to try it out to know for a fact. And your probable more than correct… that is when imagination needs to kick in.

            WhatIF # 7 Ha! do you really want me to answer that?! I can see your finger moving to the nuke button now. You used much kinder word in your description that I would have.

            Ok all in all…do I believe fenn meant that the clues can be deciphered at home? Yes, all of them… But so far that has not worked for the field either… folks deciphered the first couple of clue and didn’t seem to know it or understand the significance of the clue and/or the place… So yes, there seems to be a need to being able to adjust thoughts and process on site. But like fenn has warned us; “I warned that **the path** would not be direct for those who had no certainty of **the location** beforehand, but sure for the one who did.” f
            *** When I read that, it seem to say the “path” as to all the clue, and the “location” of where the chest lays in wait… I could also say, the location is the path or the start. But I lean towards, the path as the clues… ***How do you read it?

            If you noticed I skip WhatIF # 6.
            I would need to double check… but the first statement about the ‘first two clues’ was in 2013?… I’m not sure exactly what year it was that he as told to back-away from the computer… but it seems to me, it was much more recent, than 4 yrs ago. So I really don’t have a rebuttal for that.

          • Seeker, I wasn’t talking about his statement about searchers solving the first two clues. I was talking about his recent statements about only solving the first two clues from home which was about the time the doctor told him being in front of the computer so much was unhealthy.

            I wish I had another treasure to hide in the Appalachians. The little girl in India cannot get closer than the first two clues. There are many disabled people who are deeply into maps and geography, and they are having a lot of fun.

            He added in a comment:
            It might just as well have been a boy from Waxahatchee, where my father was born, or an Arab kid from Marrakech,

            And then he said:
            “All of them, in theory, but not likely in practice. A searcher must go to the site to find the treasure.”

            In theory you can do just about anything from home.

            I thought the same thing as everyone else because of his going with confidence ect. comments. But he never said where we would go with confidence from.

            It looks like now we have to be at the first two clues to figure out the poem and go with confidence. Once we figure it out it will be obvious where to go and what to do.

            I’m amazed that folks just ignore what he has said.

          • Mindy, I believe when Mr. Fenn said there is no subterfuge, it is exactly what he said. There isn’t any hint to this word. By going back to when he began using this word, and comparing it to a time line of what was going on, I believe it will be understandable.

            This is an opinion, offered as a thought.

          • Too much talk on this line about whether or not FF followed the clues when he hid the TC. If we can use a computer to track the clues, why couldn’t he? He knew where he wanted to hide the TC, correct? It doesn’t take a brain surgeon (hopefully not a home-taught one at least) to then use a computer to create the poem, knowing where the clues are. I assume we all believe FF knew where the clues are, correct? I have seen nothing that indicates he went to WWWH, then to HOB, then “put in”, etc. IMO, he drove directly to where he wanted to place the TC, without going to the other places. Thoughts?

        • Yeah, I shouldn’t have used the numbers as an example, not my intent. JDA, since I go that direction I can see why you stated what you did. Sorry.
          I can see moving the stanzas around as messing with the poem, but also putting in place, if that makes sense. It’s a different way of reading the poem, and I can kinda see that. My point was just throw the poem for face value away, basically.
          Seeker, I still believe there is something in the word counts, stanzas, and clues. Example: My clues are lines in the poem. 5,6,9,13,16,17,20,22,24, with the “key” line 9. All of it together gets the chest. So, add them up, take down to simplest form. So, stanza 1=0
          Stanza 2= 5+6=11,1+1=2
          Stanza 3= 9
          Stanza 4= 13+16=29,2+9=11,1+1=2
          Stanza 5= 17+20=37,3+7=10,1+0=1
          Stanza 6= 22+24=46,4+6=10,1+0=1
          So, from the clues I have: 29211
          Add the ‘key” line= 29211+9=29220.
          The book of days, 29220 is the exact amount of days in 80 years. 60×365, 20×366.
          This may be just coincidence, but, helps with confidence. I can match what I have to a story. If you add just the clues, you get 132. Same page the poem is on, full circle.It’s these little things that help, along with the email I sent you, something like that shouldn’t happen, unless maybe by design. What are the odds on it being just coincidence?
          Also, you know I get coordinates. The lines I used for the coordinates, when added together give me your 4 digit number. The elevation of those coordinates. Now, that I think is coincidence, but still gives one confidence. There is also a pattern to the word counts. 25, (+2) 27,27,(+2)29,29,29. If there was a seventh stanza it would have 33 words. This seems like obvious design, so something is there somewhere, in the counts. Does it help with the clues, no, just talking confidence. Like you said, a form of checks and balances. I still have one problem with this. I don’t think you can solve all the clues from home. Coordinates, confidence, yes, all the clues, no. It’s the 3rd clue and the blaze. Third clue little Indi can’t get passed. The blaze, if we could solve the blaze from the poem, we could start right there, we can’t. It’s these two minor things that make me think that trying to solve all the clues from the poem is the wrong approach. (Before someone posts the link to the little Indi can’t cross the ocean post, he said thanks for answering that for him, not that the answer was correct, we know what was said). So Seeker, A check and balance of the correct clues solved, line of thinking? But not “clues” that will “lead” to the chest. Oh yes I agree. He said we would be certain, it’s this little way of thinking outside of the clues that gives that certainty, IMO. He deliberately put everything exactly where he needed it to be. There has to be a way to find out why he did what he did, and a “checks and balances” way of saying it is perfect.

        • WOW Seeker;

          That is an interesting theory you propose.
          Stanza #6 7787 I think is the surprise though.
          Just a wild a$$ guess though. JDA

          • Bob –

            I am responding from my email and I do not know if anyone else has. I’m sure some will argue so let me say my list does not contain pronouns. The “there” is stanza 3 will confuse some. It means “that place” which makes it a pronoun, so its out.

            treasures secret riches waters canyon home Brown meek end paddle creek loads water blaze quest gaze chest peace trove answers effort cold wood title gold

            Lugnutz

          • 1. There
            2. Treasures
            3. Where
            4. Riches
            5. Waters
            6. Canyon
            7. Home
            8. There
            9. Place
            10. Meek
            11. End
            12. Paddle
            13. Creek
            14. Loads
            15. Water
            16. Blaze
            17. Quest
            18. Gaze
            19. Chest
            20. Trove
            21. Effort
            22. Cold
            23. Wood
            24. Title
            25. Gold

          • 1. There
            2. Treasures
            3. Where
            4. Riches
            5. Waters
            6. Canyon
            7. Home
            8. There
            9. Place
            10. Meek
            11. End
            12. Paddle
            13. Creek
            14. Loads
            15. Water
            16. Blaze
            17. Quest
            18. Gaze
            19. Chest
            20. Trove
            21. Effort
            22. Cold
            23. Wood
            24. Title
            25. Gold

            There is an adverb.
            Where is an adverb and an informal conjuction.
            Meek is an adjective.

            Good luck.

          • Fennatical: a couple corrections:

            3: “where” should be “secret”; where is an adverb in this context

            20.5: answer

            But here’s my question: why are people focusing on the nouns in the poem? If people are referencing Forrest Fire’s comment in Scrapbook 73, he didn’t actually specify nouns in the poem exactly. This is what he wrote:

            “I would like to reiterate: Please go back to the poem and look at maps for your answers. Not every noun in TTOTC is a hint. If you can’t solve the first clue you should not spend your money searching. My guess is that the person who is successful will very quietly solve the clues and walk to the treasure with a smile on their face.”

            So did he really ~mean~ just the poem (in TTOTC), or could he have been talking about the entire book? (And, no, I don’t believe every noun in the book is a clue!)

          • Zap –

            The Fennster seems to have corrected from “words” to “nouns”. This is why we are discussing and here is the quote.

            “Every word is placed in there strategically, and you can’t ignore any of the nouns in that poem.” f

            JCM or some other awesome dude would have to site the original.

            Lugnutz

        • Goofy,
          First off there is no easy or direct answer to any of this, at this point in time. For some time now I have been brewing over a lot of ATF comments as a check and balance type system for any theory as usable or not. { I really liked my first theory of the Glacial period as the big picture and 1000s of yrs down the road thought.. but many wwh in the RM’s comment blew that into fantasy land. } oh well, Crap happens.

          Here’s a Q&A for thought about the confidence;
          *~You tell us that we should find “where warm waters halt” before trying to solve any of the other clues. Imagining that we haven’t seen the rest of the poem, and all we have to go on is:
          a. “begin it where warm waters halt” and
          b. “somewhere in the mountains north of Santa Fe”
          Do you think that we can confidently determine the starting place for your treasure trail? ~ Steve
          No, if all you have to go on are those two clues you cannot proceed with confidence. Look at it this way. If you were making a cake and you left out a few ingredients, would you achieve your goal? [ then followed by the story of bear… needing all the information ]

          LOL the first part of this question is a disaster… The second part asked can we confidently determined the “starting point” of the trail… and that is using wwwh as the first clue. So in *thought*, and to the point… we need all the clues to have confidence, not just a starting point or the first couple of clues… which has been done and still searcher past everything else. Regardless of being on site or not. Knowing something is more important than just being there… does that have to do with the part of “thinking, planning and observing”?
          Well, the “thinking and planning” part could be done at home [and my point] “observing” is being on site [ which seems to be your point ] IMO.. both method of beforehand and traveling the path are needed for a full ‘conclusion’ of the challenge… the retrieving of the chest.
          Can that accomplishment be done by anyone… I highly doubt a child or a disable person could, for obvious reasoning. It all depends on ones physical abilities or lack of.

          All the ingredients are needed for a confidence level of completing the challenge to be high.
          So far, we only have heard of the first four clues might have been solved in order [regardless of knowing they were… I doubt that is the confidence level needed, either]

          It seem to me that, a 9 clue understanding of the poem’s references are needed prior, for that confidence level… Confirmation of our confidence is a whole another story. Confirmation can only be done on site.

          On a personal note; How many times have we heard about others confidence levels about their solves [ knowing where or what the blaze is ] and it resulted in nothing at all.
          Confidence is a logical deduction of the information “known” [in this case the poem]… That is, prior knowledge / a good understanding. And just like a logical theory… it needs testing to be proven. Too many have false confidence.. imo.

          As far as traveling and what is involved…?
          “Several months ago some folks correctly mentioned the first two clues to me in an email and then they went right past the other seven, not knowing that they had been so close. Alas, and dame fortune, so often a fickle and seductive wench, never spun her wheel to lure them back.”

          “it’s not a matter of trying, it’s a matter of thinking. I mean sure, folks figured the first couple of clues and unfortunately walked past the chest.”

          Just like the confidence level idea and your comment; “But he never said where we would go with confidence from.”
          I disagree… it seems logical enough that from the first two clues folks have walked past everything. I think it’s fair, confidently to say, that all the clues are within a relatively short walking distance from the first to the last.

          Folks talk about distance because of the line …too far to walk. So they start thinking another mode of transportation must be use. It’s more than likely we just don’t understand what fenn is relaying with that part of the poem… and his comments of what folks did from the first two clues to walking past everything seems to make sense, hiking is the method. The car/vehicle just gets you to the site from whatever state you live in, line of thinking.

          But I’m all ear for a reasonable thought that doesn’t seem to conflict with those ATF comments as a check and balance.

          You didn’t answer what you think about fenn’s warning of; certainty of the ‘location’ beforehand… I would really like to hear your thought on how that comment is read.
          [ I have read many comment where fenn refers to the ‘location’ as the chest and the clues as ‘the path’ ]

          • I am going to get a dig in here, and that is let’s get back to TToTC. You say you’ve read it/ Jake lost both his books up a creek, why should we spend so much time out on the periphery, dwelling on all the ATF comments.
            I mean the hints are in the stories. For example, why not try to understand what purpose the other poems serve in his book. Fenn said he ‘borrows’ from the Rubaiyat. Why did he correctly credit a few of the poets, but flub Nancy B Turner’s “crimson coat” poem?

            Did you know there is such a day as ‘Nat’l look up at the Sky Day’ or is just a coincidence that every stanza in that ff’s poem [ode to peggy jean] begins “today I looked up…” ?

            Seeker, you and the Canadian need a copy of TToTC, there I feel better…

          • 9clues,
            I did not lost my books in a creek, I gave them to “Face”.
            That’s what we called him anyway & he lived 50′ from the Gallatin.
            It’s not a creek.

            I may get them next week.

          • “Seeker, you and the Canadian need a copy of TToTC, there I feel better…”

            Thank you, Theycallme9clues. I will read the books one day 🙂

          • Hi Seeker – Even if you don’t want to search, I would encourage you to take a trip to the Rockies and smell the sunshine. It is quite refreshing!

          • Seeker we agree on many things. And like you, I put any solution I come up with through the Fenn shredder to see if I can destroy it by applying all of his comments to it.

            Like you, I thought his comments about certainty beforehand, going with confidence, thinking, logic, etc. etc. to mean we had to have a solution before leaving home. But he never said where we would go with confidence from; and lately he seems to be trying to clear that misconception up with his statements about only being able to solve the first two clues from home I quoted earlier.

            Folks then started using his statement about him following the clues when he hid the chest. Which started the argument about all the clues are to be walked not driven, which is a legitimate argument. Then he made the statement (which I found strange) he could have wrote the poem before he hid the chest but didn’t. Then he made another comment (which I also found strange) about not having wrote all the clues before he hid the chest.

            So is he trying to clear up the walking all the clues vs. driving some of them (too far to walk). Or like you said earlier, all the clues could be in close proximity and we don’t actually travel through all the clues, but that brings up his comment about following all the clues when he hid the chest again. He seems to be attempting, rather clumsily in my opinion, to clear up how he walked the last seven clues in the poem when he hid the chest.

            Taking all of his comments into consideration, he seems to be saying there’s no need to dig a bunch of holes, turn over every rock in the canyon, or poke and prod every crevice in a search area; if we understand the poem we will know precisely where to go and what to do. But we have to be on location after solving the first two clues to solve the remaining clues. Which is one reason he has repeated over, and over, and over how important the first two clues are.

            This is the only reasonable method I can come up with of solving the poem after taking all of his comments into consideration.

          • “He seems to be attempting, rather clumsily in my opinion, to clear up how he walked the last seven clues in the poem when he hid the chest.”

            Goofy, what makes you think he was referencing the last seven??

            “* To answer some questions and save others from being asked, I did follow the clues in the poem when I hid the treasure chest, although I hid it before the poem was complete. (Completed?) f ”

            My reading of this is,he followed the clues in the poem but hid the chest before he had followed all the clues.

            One way to accomplish that would be to follow the clues in reverse. No where did he mention the order of the clues he followed.

            The clues, if followed in reverse, would still be consecutive and contiguous. And, the poem would not be complete if he hid the chest before the first clue was encountered. 🙂

            jus’ loco bein’ loco…..:)

            (also works with could have written the poem before hid the chest)

          • Loco, thanks to you (big thumbs up) we now can be certain the first clue is WWWH, the remaining clues are consecutive and contiguous.

            The only reason I say the last seven is the poem tells us it’s “too far to walk”. He has stated he followed the clues when he hid the chest, there’s no other way. We know he parked his car and walked to hide the chest. This creates the conundrum of him walking “too far to walk” to hide the chest.

            I’m confused about what you are saying when you say he followed the clues in reverse. Are you saying he parked at the last clue?

          • Maybe “too far to walk” just means you might have to crawl a few feet. No driving needed.

          • Goofy – Unless you actually figure out the clues, you will be spinning your wheels. Go back to the poem. 🙂

          • @Gooy: “I’m confused about what you are saying when you say he followed the clues in reverse. Are you saying he parked at the last clue?”

            Why not?? He said, “* To answer some questions and save others from being asked, I did follow the clues in the poem when I hid the treasure chest, although I hid it before the poem was complete. (Completed?) f ”

            He followed the clues, but hid the treasure chest before he had followed all of the clues. When I read that, the first thing I thought was that he started at the end and followed the clues in reverse…..when he hid the chest.

            For seven years everyone has thought that you needed to park at WWWH and proceed onward on a route from there….. What IF a route you take to reach WWWH contains the other clues? You would walk past the chest and the infamous “7”, while walking to WWWH. He could have hidden the chest and then walked the rest of the clue route simply because he knew he could never go back there. Nothing he has said to date would preclude this.

            And, is not your interpretation of TFTW the same as your assuming that the searchers. who walked past the chest/clues, did so because of preconceived solutions?

            :) Nice to see ya engaging again!!!………loco

          • although I hid it before the poem was complete. (Completed?) I thought that when he said this he was referring to the poem not being yet completely finished, written.

            Did he follow the clues in theory or in practice? he did say once if you knew where home of brown is why go back to where warm waters halt. …or something like that.

          • Forrest was a guide at 14, so he knew of the location before the clues were completed. He has told us this.

            He placed the TC in a spot he was so familiar with, that he already knew of the “clues”, so in essence, he could have very well placed the TC without finishing the poem.

            Good luck.

          • Loco, I think many/most of us here agreed with you that Fenn parked his car close to the last clue when he hid the chest. He didn’t need to follow the route of the clues like we have to because, obviously, he knew where he was going to hide it.

            But then someone used this question to say Fenn said he followed the clues.

            I have a question for Mr. Fenn: When you hid your treasures, did you take the same path that is described in the poem, or were you able to skip some of the steps because of your familiarity with the area? Thank you Curtis

            The clues should be followed in order Curtis. There is no other way to my knowlege. f
            http://mysteriouswritings.com/featured-question-with-forrest-fenn-and-the-thrill-of-the-chase-treasure-hunt-toponymy-or-geography/

            So some think Fenn is saying he followed the clues to hide the chest. Which is a reasonable way to take his answer. I thought at the time he was saying we have to follow the clues, not that he did. But after rereading it several times I could certainly see how folks took it to mean he followed the clues. To me it was yet another Fenn quote that one could reasonably claim either side was correct.

            But then he came out with this statement:

            I could have written the poem before I hid the treasure chest, but I didn’t. f
            http://mysteriouswritings.com/weekly-words-from-forrest-fenn-for-october-14th-2016/

            I thought what in the world is that about………After that he came out with this statement:

            To answer some questions and save others from being asked, I did follow the clues in the poem when I hid the treasure chest, although I hid it before the poem was complete. (Completed?) f
            http://mysteriouswritings.com/periodic-words-from-forrest-fenn-on-the-thrill-of-the-chase-treasure-hunt/

            I thought why in the world is he talking about this stuff. Maybe someone asked him about his first statement in an email or something and he’s attempting to clear it up. As usual I’m more perplexed after he answered the question than I was before. It’s like talking to a politician.

          • Sorrry G_O_G, I seem to have misplaced the ‘f’…..I meant to say Goofy!!

          • Loco
            If fenn followed the clues from the hide [ at or near the blaze ] walked back to his car [ near wwwh ] he would have automatically walked from wwh to the blaze to get there [ twice ] or am I missing something? so reversing the clues doesn’t seem to match…

            I had a similar thought that where the parked vehicle is, is near the blaze or nearest to the hidden chest.

            The clues must be followed from that viewing point, back you [ the searcher ] so you can find the 10″sq spot…

            The idea here is, you may need to move about to view all the clues correct and that plops ya on the 10″sq spot.
            Scenario… view wwh that goes into the canyon, but if you can’t find what hoB is… move to a slightly different spot till it comes into view. Then look for no place for the meek and so on… until all the clues reference can be seen from one location / spot… Wise and Found the blaze?… look quickly down your quest to cease.
            But tarry cant with marvel gaze… That smack me in the head moment and grin all the way back to the car.

            Theory; clues can be deciphered prior, Botg required for alignment of the clues, and hopefully, that is the important possibility nobody thought of in winning the prize.

            Clues are in consecutive order and contiguous, and followed by the searcher [ visually ] that will lead precisely to a 10″ sq. resting place.

            It’s just a matter of how far is it from the parked vehicle… to get the view.
            Does this kinda answer the know where to start and start at the beginning comments?

            Think about it for a moment… folks deciphered the first two clues and didn’t understand the significance of where they were. They drudged past all the other clues and the chest because they didn’t know where to stop. They followed the clue botg only and didn’t “observer” the clues correctly.

            Not much thinking [ only deciphering the clues reference.] not much planning [ lol still trying to figure that one out ] analyzing the poem to see it from fenn’s perspective [ the place he want to lay to rest and his last view. ] Observing the entire poem from his special place… and he made it all work.

            Well, that is just a theory.

            So what is fenn’s hinting at with riches new and old? What is, In the wood? and why would your effort be worth the cold?
            I think we might know what tired and weak might relate to… at “almost- eighty it was time to act.”

            Do you remember a comment about; climbing a hill / mountain just so I could look back at where you came from? [ or something close to that ] The same premise fits… Find wwh and view the clue… go to the end of the where the clues stop and line up all the clue to find where ya been. and that should place you on top of the chest.

            If you can’t find the chest… go back to first clue and ‘view’ it better… line of thinking. IMO, the clue might need to be seen ~ twice ~ from both direction. And why we are told we need to walk several hours to the solve.. while fenn walked less a few miles to that special spot and view the clues and followed them to a very small piece of land and his rainbow…. My guess is an arch opening large enough for both.

            Now do you know why I have asked… didn’t anyone every turn around? Because it makes sense that if you don’t nail down the first clue… you can’t nail down the others. It might all fall into place if we think about what follow and lead means? and why fenn might have thought 1000 years down the road… the only thing that could knock it all out of wack is the movement of the land over time.

            So the hypothetical here is ~not far but too far to walk ~ through the time it took to create the view. ~ riches new and old.

            From the mind of an abstract thinker… Welcome to My World. lol How many time did ya hit your head on the desk saying… Seeker you make it so complicated?… If it was easy, anyone could do it.

            Disclaimer; all in theory, but practical.

          • Man, I hope I found the correct ‘reply’ button….it is forever up there!!

            LOL!! Seeker, I reread the reply I posted to Goofy — which you replied to.

            I know what I thought I was saying, but apparently I pulled a Seeker and was thinking about two different scenarios as I typed! 🙂

            Agreed, it made no sense at all. I might try again later!

            And, WTH!! You practicing to write another book??? 🙂

          • Theycallme9clues: yours was perhaps the most worthwhile HoD post in my stuffed Inbox today. I didn’t think anyone else had ever bothered to point out the poem on page 75 is a minimally-modified version of Nancy Byrd Turner’s “Courage Wears a Crimson Coat”. Aberrations. Sorry to see that no one (before me) even commented on your post. Talk about a lack of intellectual curiosity. Swapping Hemingway novels: ho-hum, no one cares. Reversing Tony Bennett lyrics (SB 90). The reversed quote at the end of SB 46. TTOTC page 125: God *subtracting* from the allotted time of man, those hours spent fishing. Backwards again. Claiming a Wilson Hurley painting is a Georgia O’Keefe in SB 7. These are all deliberate, everyone, and they are hints (yes, in my opinion — full disclosure). But if you don’t think these are hints, do you have a better explanation for why Forrest is doing this?

          • Zap……I’ve wondered about some of those myself. If they are clues I can’t in a rational way fit them into a solution. After all he did say he made mistakes on purpose to see if anyone was paying attention.

            But I do understand what you are saying. When he talked about the ants and Coriolis effect I thought that had to be a clue because he was so blatantly wrong. Then he came out and said he reserved the right to be wrong.

            So are they clues, a test, another crazy rabbit hole. I don’t know.

          • I remind myself with every comment; “hear me all and listen good”. He’s helping solve obeisity but is facilitating infobeisity.

          • Zap –

            I’m backing up to this one too.

            IF all these aberrations in the ATFs are hints, and you claim many are, what are they pointing to? Are they pointing, all of them, to one cohesive solve? One area?

            Can you explain any of them for us?

            Lugnautz

          • Goofy,
            The Coriolis effect comment was a headbanger. This is where I agree with you about being on sight and observing…
            Whether fenn meant is as a hint or just a thought provoking comment [ or just spat it out ] The comment was about knowing something by being in nature and observing and learning.
            Ya almost have to wonder if it has anything to do with solving the clues. My first thought was how a bullet is effected by this… But, as i’m sure you know, the bullet is airborne at the time. So, is the effect, or thought, more about the rotation of the planet? and not so much the Coriolis version.
            Whatever the case might be… we are told we need to observe… I doubt that meant just looking at maps and GE.

            Loco, I’m gonna give you a ring. I would like to talk to you about something… lol.. so check your trash mail every once in a while.

          • Goofy, Thanks for replying and I do apologize for that mess last night. I’ll start over and see if I can express myself in a manner that can be understood.

            First, even though I messed it up, thanks to you and Seeker for questioning. After I reread and considered the questions, I could see the fallacy in the concept I was promoting…..my bad.

            OK. For years we took as fact that the Poem was written and then the chest was hidden. Then we got this: “I could have written the poem before I hid the treasure chest, but I didn’t. f”

            That statement caused enough concern that Dal wrote Fenn and asked him about it. Fenn’s answer seemed to affirm that he wrote the Poem and then hid the chest….so yeah, WTH!

            Then, four years late, we get this: “The first clue in the poem is BIWWWH, that’s the first clue.”

            At present, I think his statement about the Poem being ‘written’ before hiding the chest is just that—how the Poem is ‘written’.

            If WWWH is the first clue, then the Poem could be ‘written’ as that he hid the chest in the first stanza. That would mean the rest of the Poem is ‘written’ after.**Note: I am not suggesting that stanza 1 is the ninth clue, just that he is showing us where, ‘within the Poem’, that he hid the chest.** (and, it could still have meaning to WWWH)
            ………………………..

            “I did follow the clues in the poem when I hid the treasure chest, although I hid it before the poem was complete. (Completed?) f” – – Now, I’m thinking this statement possibly plays into the one mentioned above it.

            He says he hid the chest before the Poem was complete. ‘IF’, within the Poem, stanza 1 is where he hid it, then the Poem, as far as following the clues, was not “complete”……he tells us where, within the Poem, that he hid the chest and then ‘completed’ the Poem by following the clues.

            Still not sure I am ‘splainin’ this coherently? When, where and how he physically hid the chest has no bearing on his words about how he wrote/structured the Poem. He could be, and I think is, talking about two different matters.
            ……………………………..

            “When you hid your treasures, did you take the same path that is described in the poem, or were you able to skip some of the steps because of your familiarity with the area? Thank you Curtis – – The clues should be followed in order Curtis. There is no other way to my knowlege. F”

            Yeah, I still haven’t sorted that out to my satisfaction. He, IMO, didn’t answer the question of skipping some of the steps(clues). Just going by that, it is possible that he could have taken a different route and/or short cut(i.e.; parked at a clue location closer than starting at WWWH).

            LOL!! Dang Goof, Dal gonna run you, me and Seeker outta town!! I hope this maybe clarifies where my pea-pickin noodle is at present. If it’s not understandable, it is my inability to use words/terms to express my thoughts.

            As JCM and I believe you and Seeker do, I try to especially look at his seemingly contradictory statements about the same subject, to determine what if anything would be necessary for them all to be true. Since I believe, as you do Goofy, that he is telling the truth, he sees something that would make the opposing remarks the same…..just trying to figure it out is the b**ch!

            Good Luck to All………loco 🙂

          • Thanks Loco, I do agree with you that Fenn is telling us the truth. When he perceives what he said is wrong he corrects it. The New Mexico Tourism video for example. I do think it’s important to keep his statements in context and perspective.

            That’s an interesting take you have about when he wrote the poem. First, here’s his comments:

            His famous statement at Collected Works:
            “It took me 15 years to write the poem. I’ve changed it so many times and I’ve said before that I didn’t write that poem…it was written by an architect…each word is deliberate.”

            And his statement at Jenny’s:
            I could have written the poem before I hid the treasure chest, but I didn’t. f

            Like I said, you have an interesting theory, but we could “IF” any of the clues as being the time he hid the chest and come up with all kinds of scenarios. I do agree though, it would be very interesting to know what clues were written when he hid the chest. Does he mean he only followed the clues that were written when he hid the chest?

            So why did he say these things at Jenny’s. He wasn’t waxing poetically like in the New Mexico video. He wasn’t speaking off the cuff at an interview. These are direct statements specifically about the chase and he had time to compose and compile them before sending them to Jenny.

            The clues should be followed in order Curtis. There is no other way to my knowlege. f

            I could have written the poem before I hid the treasure chest, but I didn’t. f

            To answer some questions and save others from being asked, I did follow the clues in the poem when I hid the treasure chest, although I hid it before the poem was complete. (Completed?) f

            What questions is he talking about answering to shortcut any more questions? The only reasoning I can come up with right now is someone is asking him about his answer to Curtis and he’s trying to clear that up because of all the discussion lately about the “geographic scale” of the clues. Is he trying to say the clues are more spread out than what is being discussed on the blog?

            I honestly don’t understand what he is trying to say……..but I do think it’s important.

          • I understood those comments to the understanding that he knew where he was going to place the treasure chest, in which he’s been there before. He wrote the poem/book for the reasons we know. Gosh, I don’t know if I can explain this clearly enough. When he was younger, he could have written the poem, but there was no need to.

          • Hi Lugnutz — not sure how you managed to insert your recent message in between RyanD’s and Seeker’s from days ago — that’s a neat trick you’ll have to teach me!

            So, the aberrations. I don’t know that all of them are hints, but I feel pretty strongly that many of them are. You were asking for some examples. Let’s start with Border’s/Borders/Borderline biddies. I’m willing to reveal that a border is involved with one of the clues in my solution. You already know my thoughts on For Whom the Bell Tolls. The reversed Tony Bennett lyrics are a subtle hint to one of my later clues. The reversed quote at the end of SB 46 is a much bigger hint to that same clue. I’ll be a little more specific and say that I think he altered that bumper sticker quote because he wanted the words in a particular order.

            TTOTC page 125: “God subtracts from the allotted time of man, those hours spent fishing.” The correct phrase (which is ancient and perhaps dates back to the Babylonians) is “The gods do not deduct from man’s allotted span the hours spent in fishing.” In my opinion, this line is a hint to part of the solution to WWWH.

            SB 7: calling a Wilson Hurley painting a Georgia O’Keefe: a hint to yet another clue in my solution.

            As for Nancy Byrd Turner’s “Courage Wears a Crimson Coat”, he changed all but lines 1 and 3 in minor ways (e.g. comma changed to semicolon and vice versa, a comma removed, words added and words altered). I haven’t found a hint hiding in there that helps solve any of the clues; best I came up with was a possible hint to a landmark in the vicinity of Forrest’s clues.

            I know none of this is particularly helpful, but it’s the best I can do without giving away the answers. With one exception, I don’t think it’s possible to reverse-engineer any of these “hints” into solving a clue. Forrest said the hints weren’t deliberately placed to aid the *seeker*. I think they’re there to aid the *solver* who has a candidate solution.

          • Zap –

            I appreciate that you being more illuminating in this response. Alas will never know what you think any of this points to. I mean, unless that is, you go and retrieve the treasure that you told us you would retrieve back in like October or November. I know we were both absent for a time. Did I miss that you went out and did not locate the TC? Or is there still too much weather in your spot?

            Anyway what is the quote you refer to from SB 64? SB 64 is the Joseph Archuleta letter.

            Lugnutz

          • Zap –

            I hope ypu aee this.

            Scrapbook 46 is perfect for illustratimg the differences between us as relates to the Fenn Treasures.

            You think Fenn insulted no rockabilly chick and composed a story in order to place a hint at a geographic location represented by a clue in the Poem. Is that about right?

            I say he is always yelling the truth to the best of his ability, at least when he is not cracking wise, which he clearly is here. 100% No doubt about it making a joke, and when I read it I laughed out loud. I know the type, I may know tbe girl! I toured with rockabilly bands for a decade.

            When he names the wrong book, he is saying look at me the smart guy. I am so smart i got the 2 books sceewed up.

            What i enjoy most about the memoir is that Fenn writes in the language of the Forrest at the time. The early stories are imature, the war stories are somber and unsure. The art dealer stories are mature and even cocky.

            Such is the beauty
            Lugnutz

          • Hi Lugnutz,

            Let’s just say that it’s not the weather that has prevented me from making my next trip to the Rockies. But it shouldn’t be much longer.

            You’ve reversed the digits on the SB: it’s 46 not 64. The Mz. Maven SB.

          • Ha!

            46 is one of the few things my brain screws up! I recovered from a brain (2000) injury that took away my communication.

            I have a few quurky residual problems. 46 is a number I cannot see. I cannot type a five letter word with an M in the middle. I type a comma abd have to backspace delete and add the m.

            I should have checked 46

      • No, JDA: your 5-6-1-2-3-4 reading does NOT make a lot of sense. It is in direct contradiction to Forrest’s statements. *YOU* choose to believe the poem is a circle, but that is utterly unsupported by the poem itself or Forrest’s statements. How did you justify that?

        Perhaps one area we agree is that there are no throw-away lines in the poem. It’s 24 lines long for a reason: the man had 15 years to craft it, and he’s not going to fritter that time away adding useless stanzas. In my opinion, anyone who discards the first stanza is not a contender and should stay home and play Canasta.

        • Zap;

          I MAY be wrong, but to me the “In the wood” of stanza #6 seems to automatically flow into “In there” in stanza #1. Forrest says over and over to read the book, then read the poem over and over and over, than to go back to the book to find hints. Why does he stress reading the poem over and over and over. It is my contention that he does this so that you find yourself reading the poem “in a circle – stanza #6 flowing into stanza #1.

          I may be full of poopie, but it makes sense to me. JDA

          • I agree JDA that ‘over and over’ implies the end of his poem would flow into the beginning if you just kept re-reading it. Also double omegas…simultaneous beginning and end…circular.
            That said, ‘don’t mess with my poem’ and the ‘first clue is BIWWWH’ seem together COULD contradict your line of thinking. I’m trying to think of a way you could ‘test’ this and or have ‘checks/balances’ as Seeker says, but i am struggling to think of one.

          • Sure makes sense to me too JDA

            Why does it sound like I’m talking in circles?

        • JDA, in my opinion, the reason Forrest says to toggle back and forth between readings of the poem and readings of the book(s) is because solving the poem puzzle is HARD. Our brains take time to make the right connections and associations. Yes, you might get lucky on the first reading, but odds are you won’t.

          I know you are fond of your circular poem-reading approach, but hopefully you realize that it’s a construction *you* decided upon. There is nothing in the poem that tells you to do this. I suspect you (and I’m sure many others) latched onto circularity because of Forrest quoting the second to last stanza of T. S. Eliot’s Little Gidding poem. But isn’t that an example of “outside information”?

          • So I read about Canasta again…..
            Another taunt by ff I believe, (if you believe everything on Wiki) the man is an evil genius

            “Players attempt to make melds of seven cards of the same rank and “go out” by playing all cards in their hand”

          • Am I to think that you believe in order to find the chest one must only solve the poem from nine clues to be followed one time and the whole trip amounts to something an 80 year old man could do on a day trip?

            Does that sound like something anyone would spend 20 years on? Does that sound like something a fighter pilot would consider an adventure? Does that sound even remotely worthy of a multi-million dollar prize?

            I don’t know any fighter pilots but I’ve done some stuff and the day hike that line of thinking implies sounds incredibly boring.

          • AkB-
            Many searchers use that type of solution…but more to the point…who are you to trivialize anyone else’s solution? This blog exists to share and discuss solutions…not disparage those who put them forward. Put forward your own ideas…discuss those already here…but abstain from denigrating or trivializing ideas you don’t care for and the folks who advance them.

          • Dal-
            It wasn’t my intention to hurt anyone’s feelings and I struggle a little to see how I have.

            I summarized a theory, asked questions to test that theory, and offered my opinion.

            Was it rude that I said the theory was boring? Unfortunately that is all the proof I have to offer as all proof is simply circumstantial unless ff confirms statements or the chest is found.

            In fact, I submit that I could have the entire correct solve written out on the blog in plain English and without the chest as proof, no one would believe it and someone would feel trivialized for the effort.

            But I standby my idea that the final solve can not and will not be ordinary. If The Chase was that easy there would be no need to be brave.

          • AkB — it’s not clear if your comments were directed at me, by I assure you that my candidate solution is not easy, trivial or boring. Perhaps you object to the notion that the 9 clues could be solved from home? If it takes someone a few thousand hours of commitment to achieve that, how is that less “work” than going out on 30, 50 or 100 failed trips with incomplete solutions? Finally, you seem to trivialize the actual act of retrieving the chest under this scenario. What if that solution is no cake walk?

            Regardless of how the time is divided between thinking and acting, no one can claim that any searcher who has invested years on Forrest’s puzzle and is finally successful won’t have earned it.

          • I don’t think I’ve trivialized anything, at least I haven’t intended to, but I am trying to contradict some claims that I disagree with.

            One of those claims is that The Chase won’t require any brave action other than hiking to an isolated non-dangerous area of the Rockies. Especially since we know with certainty that the chest is not in a dangerous place.

            I ask you, what is brave about a day hike? Does it not reasonably follow that brave refers to something other than or in addition to overcoming physical adversity? Could solving a riddle alone count as brave?

            My experiences tell me nothing, yes, and no.

          • AkB — okay, so you write:
            “One of those claims is that The Chase won’t require any brave action other than hiking to an isolated non-dangerous area of the Rockies.”

            Well, there is always some element of danger. I’m certainly of the opinion that the chest is in grizzly bear country. But I think reasonable precautions can be taken that minimize the chance of a bear encounter.

            “Especially since we know with certainty that the chest is not in a dangerous place.”

            The chest may not be. But I’m not sure Forrest has gone on record as saying that getting to it was an afternoon stroll.

            “I ask you, what is brave about a day hike?”

            If someone has a heart condition, or asthma, or is prone to altitude sickness, hiking above 5000′ entails an element of risk, but I get your point. You’re focused on the poem line “if you are brave and in the wood”:

            “Does it not reasonably follow that brave refers to something other than or in addition to overcoming physical adversity? Could solving a riddle alone count as brave?”

            I think you’ve answered your own question. “If you are brave” may not mean what it sounds like it means.

          • Zap –

            To be consistant i guess Fenn said iy was 2 afternoon strolls. From a sedan, and and 80 year old wouldnt go down and uo a canyon twice.

            Imo
            Lugnutz again

          • I did answer my question but the answer I came to was no. No. Hiking through the mountains, even a strenuous hike, even through bear country, in itself does not make a person brave. Not in this day and age. It is a recreational activity.

            Especially when put into the context of a game as grand as this. I would be shocked if ff had the disabled in mind when he created this thing nor do I think he should have been required to.

            But for the record, I am a disabled vet and I’m going to find it anyways.

            I think he had one person in mind. I think he put up barriers to ensure that only that one theoretical person could find it, and I think that person will have to display all of the qualities ff admires in order to be successful.

            This is obviously the opinion of one person and at no time should my confidence in myself in any way imply that you shouldn’t have confidence in yourself.

          • AkB TH –

            I think Fenn meant for any number of people to find it, but not arrogant people. There are a few out there.

            When i feel myself getting to Cock aure O try to pull it back.

            He said an out of work Texan with a PU fulls of kids will find it not a latte liberal in a Lexus.

            Good Luck Chuck
            Lugnutz

          • Hi Lugnutz…,

            One should not automatically replace confidence with arrogance.

            Remember…imagination is a key to allow confidence to grow.

            Arrogance can be perceived inaccurately if all the details and information is not available to you.

            Good luck to you.

            Cheers!

          • Hi Lug: be aware of the context of Forrest’s canyon comment. It was specifically about going up and down the Rio Grande canyon — on foot — twice in an afternoon. Not as bad as going down and up the Grand Canyon on foot twice in a day, but still in the absurd category. All the canyon work is likely done by car. I don’t think the searchers will gain or lose much elevation from where they park. Still doesn’t mean it will be easy.

          • Hi Lug: I’m not so sure we disagree as much as you think. “Easy” is relative. My wife and I descended South Kaibab Trail and ascended Bright Angel the same day. It wasn’t easy, but it was a “cake walk” compared to summiting Thunderbolt Peak in the Sierra Nevada.

    • Stanza 5 would be significant to finding the treasure chest, especially if the poem’s architecture is circular, which I am inclined to believe that it is.

      However, our agreement about circularity ends there, as you think the chest is in Wyoming. To me, the chest is in another state.

      Ken (in Texas)

    • The entire stanza makes me think of Forrest’s epitaph, which brings up thoughts of grave, engrave, headstone, marble, marbles, grave marker, hallowed, reverent, nobody cries anymore, meditation, history, past, six feet under, pillowed down and scented in, repose, silent repose, quiet, at rest, praceful…and the entire sentence must be read aloud in your best Johnny 5 impression.

      • Hi RyanD: “pillowed down and scented in” is another one of those Fenn phrases where he reversed the original words. It’s “Pillowed in silk and scented down” from Alan Seeger’s “I Have a Rendezvous with Death” (perhaps not coincidentally one of JFK’s favorite poems).

    • Hi JDA…could be something to do with…
      – past tense related to the chance of dying while writing the poem.
      – FF telling us in so many words about his take and mark on history.

      Not to many more reasons or possible “solutions” to this phrasing.

      What do you think?

  20. Upthread, goofy wrote: “WHAT IF the reason the little girl from India … can’t get any closer than the first two clues is because you need to be on location to solve the poem”?
    ———————————————————————————————-
    … because first, FF already said something was “too far to walk”. Ergo, searcher needs to drive. Since I take it that driving is required for that early clue, then it’s reasonable to assume that driving is also required for later clues. However, at some point later down in the poem, then yes, the searcher would need to be BOTG, but not for the duration of all 9 clues.

    Second, FF has said in theory searcher can find all the clues from home. That implies that the clues, especially the early clues, can be found on a map. Thinking that one needs to be BOTG to find all or nearly all the clues seems unreasonable in that no map goes down to that level of geographic detail to pinpoint every single rock, crevice, tree branch, ancient pictograph, and other such markings.

    But the most important reason against your argument, in my opinion, is that your theory forces all or nearly all of the clues into a tiny geographic area. For such a tiny area, why would one even need 9 clues? Why not just 3 or 4? Surely, if you’ve found WWWH, according to your theory, searcher should be able to cover the remaining area thoroughly. In other words, your argument implies a tiny geographic area that could be searched in its entirety without ever needing to know clues 5 or 6 or 7 or 8 …

    By contrast, with a more spread out and larger search area, the searcher is required to solve all of the 9 clues; any error at clue 4 or 5, for example, means searcher will not find chest.

    Your theory is really a discussion of “geographic scale” without you ever mentioning that phrase. And It’s a crucial discussion, despite my impression that most posters don’t seem to know what geographic scale means.

    Again, to repeat what I have said elsewhere, for the purpose of this treasure hunt, “geographic scale” is simply the distance between the first clue and the location of the chest. Your theory implies a small distance. My theory implies a much larger distance.

    Ken (in Texas)

    • Ken, I completely agree it’s about geographic scale. The first two clues cover a larger distance (too far to walk) but the remaining seven are close together, which is probably why searchers walked past the remaining 7 clues after solving the first two.

      Taking everything he has said into consideration this is the only thing I can come up with.

      Again, I agree that geographic scale is very important to solving the clues.

    • Yes, I agree too.
      FF said that persons which solved the first 2 clues were in a distance of 500 feet of the treasure. – He also said that that little girl from India could solve the first 2 clues.
      Ergo: You can find that 500 feet area from home.
      I believe some serchers were near that location. (and I believe Forrest will agree if i say: As near as thousands of other people which dont search for the treasure. Maybe some non-searchers were nearer that lovely place, that is what i believe too.)

      • Outsider,

        I’m puzzled by the interpretation that the first
        2 clues yield a distance of 500 ft to the treasure?

        FF did drive a car (a sedan) from WWWH to the
        “put in” (parking) place, a distance too far to
        walk. Many people have been within 500 ft
        of the treasure, a few have been within 200 ft.

        Someone has made a “general solve” per FF.

        The gold has felt the vibrations from the tromp
        of hiking boots, and may do so again (Jenny Kile
        featured questions with FF March 22, 2017).

        In my opinion 500 ft is the distance from the
        road (traveled by many) into the wood. 200 ft
        is the distance into the wood from the opposite
        side (the creek side) where there are no paths
        or trails.

        In my botg scenario, it is 8.25 miles from WWWH
        to the place to park the car and start out on foot.
        Yes, it is below hoB and also hoBs, it is below
        heavy loads and water high, it is on the edge of
        a “canyon” that is actually like a very gentle valley
        but it really is a canyon ’cause the map says so.

        There is Mountain and Silver sagebrush below
        the wood. There is subalpine fir, Engleman spruce,
        Douglas fir, Lodgepole and Limber pine in the wood.
        A lot of it is fallen on the ground now and perhaps
        the blaze is no longer findable if it was UP in a
        tree? Remember, you gotta look DOWN after you
        find the blaze. In the wood where I was, the only
        things “up” were the trees and the sky…just sayin’

        Proof is in the finding; I didn’t find it but I think I
        am at least one who has made the new- coined
        phrase “general solve”… close but no cigar.

        Would that FF could absolutely guarantee that
        the treasure is still hidden, but he can’t. Not
        everyone would let on that they found it IMO.

    • Here is my reason why the little girl or little boy cannot get past clue 2, simply put, they cannot fly or drive.

      Watch this vide and listen closely to Forrest at time 34:45:

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EsTdZRwnydw#t=2082

      Now consider this, that video was made in New Mexico. Forrest is saying they would need an airplane to get to the chest. He asks the lady “Do you have an airplane?” when she asks him if she can come with him to the chest.

      We just killed two birds: 1) Chest is not in NM, 2) The little girl and little boy cannot operate a vehicle so they will never get past clue 2 even if they can solve all 9 at home!

      Wow Forrest is a sly ol’ dog 🙂

      • “Wow Forrest is a sly ol’ dog” . . . this is possibly
        the understatement of the century! People have
        NO IDEA who they’re dealing with!

        I think folks should quit thinking about the little girl
        in India I said “in”, not “from”.

        And I also think folks should quit thinking about someone going/walking (right) past the treasure,
        as this is a non-clue. It isn’t even a hint. I can walk a small circle in my front yard, thereby walking right past the treasure. Think about it. All rabbit holes.

        Of course, trying to convince anybody to agree on this forum is like talking to a pile of rocks. Yeah, that was a BLANKET statement. IMO.

        • tighterfocus, comments like yours irritate me. You are telling us how wrong we are, and how we should think; but offer no reasoning for your thoughts. You are apparently smarter than anyone in the room (or at least think you are) with your “blanket” statement.

          So make a case for you statement or make that your last comment here.

        • I completely disagree, and agree at the same time. What makes matters worse is Forrest is so dang modest about it all.

          Rabbit holes are still helpful, in the beginning. I do my best learning when thrown into the fire, or when clawing my way back up the hole.

          I remember reading something a long time ago that went something like, “What is the only word you can’t use in a riddle about time?” The answer was “time”. I think about that a lot when I’ve got BOTG in a location that he’s mentioned in books or articles. However, from the beginning I thought that Forrest was the “hide it in plain sight” type of guy. Then hide behind a tree and laugh at the people walking right next to it

          We started a new family tradition last year of spending the 4th of July in West Yellowstone. It’s easy for us because we put a 5th wheel in at Last Chance in Island Park every summer.

          Last week I experimented a bit during the parade and started checking locked doors and windows around the historical block, in plain view of the police station. I tried to look suspicious on purpose and may or may not have committed a small, innocent crime.

          People walked right by me on their way to the parade and I didn’t get so much as a glance. I had time to wander all the way to the water tower and back to the south east corner of Yellowstone and Canyon without even my family noticing I was gone. I felt extremely proud of myself.

          I think there are several other scenarios where you could walk with a treasure chest under your arm around a lot of people and no one would notice. I traveled as a consultant for about 5 years and would often piggy back into the secure buildings where I was working. Sometimes I’d pretend like I was in the movies and wait until the door was just about to close, then grab it and walk through. I would always have my blackberry, or flip phone on my ear. In the corporate world you don’t even have to talk. People just think you’re in a conference call.

          Glad to add to the rabbit holes. 😉

    • What if , the reason the little girl from India cant get past the first two clues is because she has no way to find HOB without doing some research first. No internet ,no books, She only has a map,and nothing else.
      Also , Ken said FF already said something was “too far to walk”. Ergo, searcher needs to drive.
      If your using a map ,you don’t have to drive it ,you only need to know you could not walk it. I would guess more than 10-20 miles for the average person and for Fenn.

      Stanzas 1,5,and 6 Forrest is speaking IMO, I think they are Hints ,that need to be understood and will help understand the directions (9 clues) You do not need to move them around ,they are placed in the poem where they are for a reason.
      As I Have
      I must go
      Hear me all

      One more thing IMO Title to the Gold is where the gold lays not a paper title or deed.

      • Lisa,
        You bring up several very relevant points, IMO. FWIW, I believe your comment about the “little girl in India” is spot-on. Jenny’ fictitious scenario provides a basis for an excellent question, IMO, and Forrest’s response seems to imply she does not possess, or have access to, the required tools to solve the entire poem, as you indicated.

        I also agree with your ‘TFTW’ statement in that it alludes to a mode-of-transport, but I will add that I believe the mode does not involve an automobile, and it has nothing to do with distance – there’s a subsesquent phrase in the poem that, IMO, does pertain to distance, though not in quantifiable terms. I mention it below. I will add that I believe the complete path of the poem (and modes of transport) and the complete path an efficiency-minded searcher will take are not one and the same. I know Forrest made a recent comment on Jenny’s site regarding the path he took when hiding the treasure, but he also left some wriggle room – each searcher will have an opinion…

        On your last comment about the nine clues and not moving things around, I am in complete agreement. I will, however, throw out some thoughts that have come to mind over the course of my pursuit of Forrest’s treasure:

        F has, on multiple occasions, clearly stated there are nine clues in the poem. Does this mean we apply only a single interpretation of a specific word or phrase (clue) at that particular point in the poem? Is it possible there could be one or more words or phrases that F intended to be used by a searcher more than once in solving the poem, and could a different interpretation of that particular word/phrase be required to derive a correct solution?

        I’m probably over-complicating the poem; however, there are one or more phrases/words that have become thorns in my little brain that manifest in consternation or enlightenment, and I don’t know which to believe, if either. One phrase is, “The end is ever drawing nigh;”. IMO, this phrase should be considered one of the clues, so a searcher would presumably apply an interpretation at that point in the poem. But, is this phrase self-persistent? Does it invoke persistence of itself that would require a searcher to interpret and apply at the point it’s read in the poem, and then again at a later point with possibly a different meaning/interpretation? Or, is it possible (likely?) this was not F’s intent and just the way the poem has worked out – at least in my convoluted interpretation?

        There’s at least one other phrase that clouds my Chase thoughts in a manner similar to the phrase I just mentioned, but I’ve driveled long enough. Anyway, I enjoyed your post and wanted to throw out a few thoughts, FWIW.

        Best of luck in your Chase – be sane, be safe.
        Joe

    • Ken (in Texas) – i agree with some of what you said above, esp the poss distance from #2 to #3

      however, being that i’m a recklessly rasculous optimist, i strongly suspect that most peoples are already aware of geo-scaling (imho)

      ..but if ya possess a Rossetta Stone equation of x.y.z ratio vs. location, then i (for one) am def all ears

    • Nope— don’t think so. Does not look like a place where you would put a chest and throw your dying body upon it. The place isn’t special and pristine enough IMHO.

      No one has found the chest yet. I believe Forrest would be honest enough to tell everyone if it had indeed been found. Interesting video though. 🙂

      • The thing about these claims is, most of us who’ve done BOTG have at least one, and often many more, places that fit the clues as well (or better…) than this one does. That “blaze” wood would degrade pretty quick… Agree with Sparrow…not special enough of a place.

  21. “Hello Forrest, If in 500 years all a person has is the poem, and no back story: they don’t know “in the rocky mountains north of santa fe” or that there are 9 clues etc. Could a person reasonably just use the words in the poem and find your treasure chest? Thank you ~Nope
    Thank you Nope. Nope. f” BY JENNY KILE · AUGUST 9, 2016

    This one has been bugging me for a while… So, 500 years from now someone finds the poem written on a piece of paper and we can say that (reasonably) they will not know it is a riddle that when solved will take you someplace. Agreed. Now, the question included other bits of information: 1. Rocky Mountains, north of Santa Fe.
    2. It contains 9 clues.
    Are both of this points necessary to figure out where that spot is? If we only know about 9 clues in the poem but not the Rockies area, the clues are so generic that would take us ANYWHERE??? Or if we didn’t know there are 9 clues within it, but we do know the area, is it impossible or even harder to solve the poem?

    The term ‘back story’ also has other connotations and I wonder if anything about Mr. F’s personal life needs to be known, at least I didn’t get that hint from that New Zealand interview found by Loco. The interviewer asked if the Texas searcher needed to know about anything or geography and ff said, NO, all he needs to know is to figure out what the first clue mean (wwwh) and match it to a map [or something like that]. So this searcher knows it is in the Rockies area, knows there are clues in the poem and off he goes to decipher clues and match to a map. No need to read the book, no need to know who ff is, no clue about geography. Something’s missing…

  22. Hmmm, haven’t been here for awhile? Reading above is confusing considering there are only 2 “if’s” in the poem. If you’ve been wise and If you are brave. There is no subterfuge in the poem, true, but that doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist. Like art dealers from back east, sometimes you don’t see it coming. Learn from life’s mistakes, adjust then move on. Remember some of the most important things in life can’t be found of Google. And when trying to think of everything, remember 7% can’t be understood.
    A friend of mine once told me exactly where he had found lots of gold nuggets. Instead of going straight there we spent 3 months prospecting and starving on our way to get there. Upon arrival we were heartbroken to not find a speck of gold the first day, even though we were in the right spot. In the days, weeks and years that followed hundreds and hundreds of ounces of nice gold nuggets were found. After each one I would look up in the sky and thanked the Lord. That was the highlight of everyday.
    When I tell the story to friends I always include the hardships and mishaps of the whole story, which in many ways is the best part, except I leave out the many times I looked down and asked “why me Lord”.
    For those serious about finding the treasure remember what Mel Fischer once said “Today’s the Day”. Today I may be clueless but some day I’ll sit down and count the clues after I’ve finished the poem and thats just the way I envision it.
    I may not be correct, except in my own mind, but when I tell my story it will be with countless memories from the Rockies with only slight mention about what I learned from Google.
    If anyone would like exact coordinates of where to begin, I would try the REM’s, just don’t forget to skip E.

    • There’s been many times that: I drive to my search area, playing & singing “Today’s the Day,” by America – while thinking of Mel Fisher. Mel Fisher never gave up – nothing could stop that man.

      • Nice to see you Golden Retrievers:) That also reminds me of someone we all know. Hey I’m down, the next time your around, for a quick search if your up for it.

        • Strawshadow, I’ll be around there in mid-August. Let’s do a search at that time, if your dance card’s not full.

  23. Just pondering all of the recent comments about Fenn’s Poem. There is an interesting “variety” of ideas about “how to read/ interpret” the stanzas. Repeat ideas about “circular”, “geographical scale”, rearranging stanzas and so on. The ATF comments seem to weigh heavy as a sort of “check and balance” system to raise/lower a searchers confidence level in regards to their solve. All of these scenarios/methods seem to be plausible for “individual” ideas/solves…but not indicative of the majority in general.
    Many of Fenn’s ATF comments seem to be well thought out on his part as they consistently appear to be worded in a manner that leaves a lot to the imagination of the reader or listener. For safety reasons he has been pretty blunt about certain things…but less than clear in other areas.
    The recent revelations about the first clue(BIWWWH), Rio Grande, not under water etc. have shifted a ton of solves right into the circular file(probably where they belonged anyway). I also detect a bit of scrambling to salvage old solves by reapplying the old hint/clue clue/hint debacle. Reassigning previous clues as hints.
    The more mileage Little Indie gets…it seems the less is really understood clearly by all. It could be just me though. Arguments can be made in both directions…just like many of his comments. Most likely by design…
    All of the ATF comments in regards to 1st two clues…folks walking on by, 500 ft./200ft. seem to imply that the “geographical scale” is actually quite small once on site. That’s just my opinion. If I take that idea a step further, and apply that to how to “nail down” the first clue it makes me believe that the first stanza has the info necessary to pick the correct WWWH. That stanza is most likely not there for nothing but filler. There have been many comments about riddles, moving stanzas around, reading the Poem in a manner that suggests needing info from later stanzas to understand previous stanzas, numerology…the list is endless. What exactly IS “messing with the Poem”?
    ” Stop arm chairing that thing to death and get out into the trees where the box is, but before you go, look at the poem as if it were a map, because it is, and like any map, it will show you where to go if you follow its directions.” I put this out there to suggest that when a traveler uses a map…usually it is to go from point to point to point to get to a particular destination…”in order”, vs. skipping around and taking side trips out of the way. This seems to indicate the word/s “contiguous”, “in consecutive order”. Who the heck really knows ?! Maybe we are supposed to read the Poem backwards while looking at it in a mirror with one eye closed while eating some cloves! Someone has probably tried that…
    Anyway… I believe the correct solve will/can be done before BOTG and that it will probably entail a couple of dry runs. I also believe that the overall concept of the Poem needs to be understood before having any chance of nailing down the first clue which gets a searcher in the correct place to start…and close to the rest of the clues.

    • Ken,
      While I second most of what you said. I’m reminded of this comment;
      **** “I’m not flippant about this. It’s not something somebody is going to be able to do on spring break or a Sunday afternoon picnic. I’m looking a hundred years down the road, maybe a thousand years down the road. People don’t understand that.” ***

      What is it we don’t understand about down the road?

      So, can we have truly have a ‘full, complete’ solve prior?

      Just deciphering clues [ whether the first two or as many as the first four ] doesn’t seem to really help “solve” how to do it all. Either something major is being overlooked by readers of the poem… or… on site is just as important as deciphering clues prior.

      It bewilders the mind that folks who live and breathe the challenge can walk by all the clues and not have a clue… even when some clues have been deciphered, especially the first clue.
      I’m having a hard time understanding what deciphered means and not knowing it was, when searcher are actually there and indicated the first clue… ?!?… And still have the remaining clue walked by, unnoticed. I can see that happening with a Hidden 10″ sq chest… but the clues?

      How true that comment above is ~ “People don’t understand that.”

      • ” It bewilders the mind……walk by all the clues…..when some clues have been deciphered, especially the first clue.”
        My hunch on this Seeker is that BIWWWH and other clues including HOB are so closely related…either by definition, proximity or interpretation, that a searcher could say where they were or were going, what they saw, and Fenn could technically say they had been at the first clue or two and not give anything away. “Decipher/deciphered” is a biggie for me to wrap my head around and understand that he says folks have told him, but they didn’t know it. That is why I believe there is a very strong connection to more than one clue.
        And yes…there is sumpin’ really fishy going on…that has eluded all for these last few years. That must be that …smack youself in the head thingy that has been skipped around all this time. I am in the camp that believes this can be done from home(no retrieval) and BOTG obviously gets the prize. I am committed to taking trips to do “lab work”, I find it rewarding in many ways. I still have faith that Fenn is telling it like it is when he speaks of “certainty before hand”, “go directly to it”, etc….this just reinforces my hunch that things are very closely tied together…and a bugger to figure out.

  24. “It looks like now we have to be at the first two clues to figure out the poem and go with confidence. Once we figure it out it will be obvious where to go and what to do.”

    Well, I’m not to sure that fits with what Fenn has said:

    “Nobody’s gonna happen on that treasure chest. Their gonna have to figure out the clues and think and find…and go directly to it.”

    “I warned that the path would not be direct for those who had no certainty of the location beforehand, but sure for the one who did.”

    ………………………….
    If the certainty of location he referenced is where the chest is, and said location was supplied with only solving of the first two clues and that the path would be sure from that point, what happened when the two parties(or more now) who solved the first two clues and walked past the chest?….. It doesn’t appear that it was very obvious to them where to go and what to do??
    ……………….

    “Many people have found the first clue but they didn’t know it.”

    So, many have solved WWWH, but don’t know it. That would seem to indicate that the first two clues are required to allow one to identify the ‘area’ where Indulgence now resides (and the other seven clues that were walked past).

    But apparently more must be known beforehand, as evidenced by those who have solved the first two clues…..and most assuredly now that “Some may have solved the first four clues”!

    It may indeed be that BOTG are required at some point prior to the actual retrieval of the chest. But, at this point, it does not appear to be prior to solving thru at least clue #5 beforehand.

    ‘If’, the 4 clues solved, searchers were BOTG, then they had solved two of the seven clues which have been walked past….. If BOTG are required after the first two clues then surely,having narrowed it down thru four clues, it would have been somewhat obvious as where to go next,

  25. We know where to begin, it’s WWWH.
    If this place is pretty specific & not a region then we must assume it’s a fairly small area.

    And take it in the canyon down, seems to be the next clue.

    I haven’t found any areas in the Rocky’s where there is more than one canyon going down from a single point unless it’s a mountain peak which F ruled out.

    I would be willing to bet these are the 1st 2 clues & there is only one canyon going down & that would explain searchers figuring the first 2 clues.

    • Jake-
      I can think of a place where there might be many canyons going down from a place…
      A warm lake for instance might have several outlets and more than one might head through a canyon…

      And where did forrest say that “down” means downstream?
      One of the curious points that Forrest brought up and reinforces with regularity is the need for a map…
      Why do we need a map?
      It seems logical since we are looking at geography to use a map…
      So we don’t question that instruction…
      But his insistence made me curious…

      This has been hammered out before but I’ll say it again for the new folks who don’t read the archives…
      “Down” on a map is south.
      The phrase Take it in the canyon down..
      Seems to indicate that there is more than one canyon from our WWWH place…
      as in…take the route through the canyon that goes down…not the route through the canyon that goes up…
      Perhaps one route goes through a canyon when headed downstream and another is a route the goes through a canyon when headed south…

      Folks typically choose the downstream direction…maybe the one to the south isn’t downstream…maybe our WWWH place has a number of inflows as well as outflows..but only one goes south…and it’s an inflow…so folks generally ignore it…
      But if you can follow it south on a map…or down on a map…it might be the direction he is talking about…
      or not…more rabbit holes to consider..

      • ““Down” on a map is south.
        The phrase Take it in the canyon down..”

        My current thinking has me agreeing with you, dal

      • Would you like to share this place where there might be many canyons going down?

        I comprehend if you are paranoid like most here & don’t want to share here & just blurt out statements here & there without explaining.

        Down in the poem means only 1 thing to me if taken straightforward.
        Elevation.

        Maps in general read like books where at the top of each page is north & the bottom is south & the one I have which is Gallatin National Forrest West does not have a legend which way is NSEW.

        If Forrest is indicating in the poem that “down” is “south” exclusively, I will eat my hat.

        I’m still looking on GE & can’t find any specific places where there are multiple canyons going down from a specific small/moderate area but I’m sure there are a few rare ones.

        I’ve got enough rabbit holes to last a lifetime & gonna start eating them hares again.

        • It was an example Jake…
          You are already in moderation..
          I’ve warned you about being a jerk..
          That was your last comment on this blog…

          Here is an example.
          Yellowstone Lake comes to mind..Many folks believe it is WWWH.

          They could head down(stream), which is north on the upper Yellowstone River..to the Grand Canyon of the Yellowstone
          or
          Down(south) on the Yellowstone River where it enters the lake..
          Toward Thorofare to the south.

          • Dal and Jake –

            I would like to add a location right here for folks that are not familiar.

            The Parting of the Waters.

            Thats the spot on the continental divide where the river runs in 2 different directions.

            Fascinating.
            Fascinating and tough to get to.

            Lugnutz

          • Lug,
            I considered that area a while back (parting of the waters) but, as you said, “it’s tough to get there”. So I crossed that one off m list. Did you know “Poncha” is a spanish word meaning warm? Poncha Springs is in Colorado. There’s also Brown Creek and Little Brown Creek. Finally, my wandering mind asks the question, “What is Home of Brown” is referring to the Brown Butterfly found in Colorado. Oh, and while I’m at it, Fort Washakie, Wyoming used to be Ft. Brown. Add all this up and I still have zip. Good hunting!

          • That’s a neat location that I wasn’t aware of before, Lugnutz. Looks like a cool hiking destination sometime. Thanks for sharing.

          • Lugnutz,
            Parting of the waters is about a 12- 15 mile hike, However it does form an X.
            It’s not that far from ISA lake who’s drainage goes west to east and east to west, as well. And yes known to be ruff hiking. This type of drainage also at the triple divide but there is no crossing of the water flow. And once more in Colorado…but there it is, man made to move the drainage for farming and drinking water… letting less waters into the Colorado river, slowing its flow and why lake Meade is drying up. This is why Las Vegas bought water from Idaho or Utah.

          • Dal-
            I would like to request that Jake not be banned. I don’t think he’s trying to be a jerk, I think he’s just passionate about his research.

            But more importantly, I would like the opportunity to see him eat his words, and his hat.

            I would consider it a personal favor and would owe you one if you’d let him continue his antics until winter, not that I have any weight to throw around.

          • Yeah way, lug…the first instance of down, after canyon. Parse it out precisely as written. Zz cad sentence parser is very accurate.

          • Mindy –

            I disagree. Do you reference this sentence?

            Begin it where warm waters halt
            And take it in the canyon down,
            Not far, but too far to walk.

            Lugnutz

          • Good enough. 🙂

            But consider this, if it is a noun (and I’m 99.999% sure it is), it changes the whole meaning of the sentence.

            I will try and post my color coded parsing of the whole poem on my blog later.

            We are battling a broken upstairs AC. Repair guy is here now. Lol.

          • If you take the simplest view, the clause in question is “poet-speak” for “take it down in the canyon” (down = adverb or preposition).

            Can you offer or suggest an alternate translation/interpretation for the clause with “down” used as a noun instead?

            JAKe

          • Oh, we don’t have to go nuts here.
            I think Mindy just means that if Down is a place that is lower it’s a noun.

            If the sentence read:
            Begin it down in the canyon where the warm waters halt
            Then Down would be a noun. (I think)

            I am not in anyway suggesting that this is maybe how the original sentence was formed before it it was fit to iambic tetrameter in Fenn’s ballad.

            Lugnutz

          • What if I made the statement: I went on north DOWN the road and it was uphill the whole way.

            Then the down would seem contrary in many ways but it wouldn’t matter because you’d still know what I meant, especially if you were familiar with the area.

          • Forrest said to follow the poem “precisely,” which to me, means “as written.”

            He said recently to pay attention to the nouns. As written, there are some unexpected words that are nouns, and some words you might expect to be nouns, that are not.

            So, if that instance is a noun, the meaning of the whole phrase is narrowed down significantly.
            🙂

            Also, think about that when pondering how he replied to the question about the blaze being a single “object.”

            Sentences are comprised of all parts of speech, including subjects and objects. So “In a word, yes,” is very telling.

            Hope that helps someone. 🙂

          • * * * * Lugnutz wrote – “Oh, we don’t have to go nuts here.” * * * *

            Didn’t mean to sound nuts, Lug, just trying to talk about the subject at hand – the nouns in the poem, following ff’s “. . . you can’t ignore any of the nouns in that poem.”

            * * * * Lug again – “If the sentence read:
            Begin it down in the canyon where the warm waters halt
            Then Down would be a noun. (I think)” * * * *

            It wouldn’t be a noun in that example, it would be a preposition. Similar to “under” in ‘Begin it under the bridge’, or to “up” in ‘Begin it up the creek.’

            ‘Take it down in the canyon’ – preposition

            ‘Take it in the canyon down below’ – adjective

            ‘He’s got a knife – take him down!’ – adverb (also as in ‘They’re taking that billboard down’)

            There is a possible piece of poetic wordplay with a noun in Stanza 1.

            If it read:
            “I can keep my secret where
            IT hints of riches new and old.”
            then ‘my SECRET’ would clearly be a noun.

            But since it reads:
            “I can keep my secret where,
            And hint of riches new and old.”
            then it’s possible that ‘secret’ is an adjective and ‘my where’ is a poetic coining for ‘place’.

            JAKe

          • I just posted the color coded parsing of the poem on my hot spot blog. I’ll post it on my personal blog too.

          • Mindy –

            I am married to a blogger, so of course, I cannot visit your blog.

            In the friend zone
            Lugnutz

          • I meant we don’t need to beat up on Mindy.
            Anywho, Down is a noun when it describes a place that is the target of the action.

            In Fenn”s poem I don’t think it’s a noun

          • Lady V,

            That’s what I tend to think with references to pillows and ducks. 🙂

            Is it that simple? Yeah, I think it is.
            The hard part is figuring out what the words mean.

            And that means parsing the poem precisely, because capital letters, punctuation placement, and word placement can all greatly affect the meaning of the sentence.

            The nouns are incredibly important. Another example, the word “must” is a noun if the sentence is parsed precisely as written. That greatly narrows down the meaning of the sentence.

            “…the canyon down” is a noun phrase, so they all go together.

            Once you’ve properly identified all the nouns, I believe it’ll become much easier to marry those clues to a map.

            I recently reread the Scrapbook (or it might have been a vignette) about Forrest delivering an item to Michael Douglas’s house “up Benedict Canyon or somewhere like that.”

            I think when he says things like “somewhere/something like that,” it’s a hint. He wants you to check that out.

            So I did, and first checked to see if Benedict Canyon was a real place. It is, and celebrities do live there. I couldn’t find on a quick search if Michael Douglas ever did, but he definitely could have.

            Then I looked up the word “Benedict” and interestingly, one of its meanings is “good.” Coincidence? I sorta doubt it.

            Thinking of all the religious iconography and Catholic references Forrest has used, I then researched Benedictine monks, and found two monasteries in the search area, both in Colorado. I think one of them might have gone inactive after 2010. One of them is in Canon City or Pueblo (can’t remember offhand).

            So, one thing I’d recommend is to go back and periodically reread those SB’s and Vignettes, because although they might not lead you right to the treasure, they might be helpful in deciphering some nouns, and other parts of speech.

            Hope that helps someone. 🙂

          • Mindy, enjoyed reading your thoughts in regards to “down” being a noun and the other hints from the book/scrapbook(s). Have you ruled out another noun for “down”?:

            wordnik:

            n. A downward movement; descent.

          • PD,
            Down as a movement is correct, but not the only usage.
            It can mean reverse.

            Not unlike halt as stop or remain still. Halt can mean change.

            Example; walking/marching to a halt “changes” the motion of the act.. add in down, and we have a new movement… but never stopping, or in the example, of marching left face turn, the movement from one direction to another direction didn’t stop; as to stay or remain still.

            Halt was used in the above example as, a change.
            Not unlike down can mean reverse.

            Yep, someone will jump in and say, over complicating or over thinking, or the poem is straightforward or we must us the KISS method… it says so in my dart set manual.

            Fenn’s own words;
            “I looked up words and definition of words and change them, went back and rebooted… it [ the poem ] turn out exactly like I wanted..”
            Or
            This answer to a Q&A [ in part ]
            “I don’t use dictionaries anymore. I just type the word in Google for a faster response… Now I will test you Wordsmith. Write down the full definition of the word “several.” Then Google it and learn that many of us don’t fully understand some of the words we use every day.f ”
            or
            Tells us every word was deliberate.
            Or
            As Mindy stated – in part – look at nouns.
            “There are a few words in the poem that are not useful in finding the treasure Phil, but it is risky to discount any of them. You oversimplify the clues.”

          • I agree the word “down” could mean as you described. To have fun, we could look at “down” as meaning sad or depression. Look at depression and we could find a hollow, valley, etc.. I think there’s a lot of possibilities with this one “simple” word that may not be so simple.

          • PD,
            Great example of depression. We also know that fenn likes the usage of warm as comfortable [ not saying this is meant as in regards to the poem, but it could be ].
            I would also add begin it.. vs. begin it where.., can mean two completely different interpretations.

            Fenn chose the avenue of a poem to express the clues and to make them difficult. That is the whole point of writing a poem… freedom of word choices and their multiple meanings.

            But one thing that has always itch my britches… the capital letter in each line. Yes, many poems have this style. But fenn also put a capital in a word at the end of a sentence.. that’s fine if it refer to a name.. but does it? And why did fenn want capital letters in each line? If not for style.
            Or
            Place a question in the poem, and answer it? if not important. There are a lot of things in the poem that make you go…hmmmm.

          • Seeker, the capitalization in the beginning may be preference, or it could draw attention to the word “Brown” for possible importance. I do believe it to be a noun. I’m not sure how I can answer your other questions/comments.

          • PD,
            The questions in my post don’t need answering for my sake… they are for thought.
            LOL. Like, If a tree falls in the forest and no one is around, does it still make as sound?
            Or like Schrodinger’s cat… The process of my questions are for action thought.

        • Went to Two Oceans Lake last month. It’s much easier to get to than the Parting of the Waters which would be impossible for an 80-yr-old man to get to, IMO–that’s an intense and longggg hike.

          Saw a grizzly on the way to the lake. And a lot of other wildlife. It’s a magical place, and when the road to the trailhead around the lake is closed, not a soul around. It’s a couple of miles’ walk from the main road near Oxbow Bend when the road is closed. Absolutely beautiful.

      • Dal, you seem to always add value. I’d like to attempt and do the same by saying down might also mean west:

        “The sun comes up in the east and we thought out was south…”

    • Triple divide come mind.. drains to the Pacific, Atlantic and Hudson bay. The peak is only 8,018 ‘ Seems below the parameters of 10,200 feet.

  26. Loco, Goofy, Seeker, and others – it is good to see some solid discussion again going on. For years the debate has raged over what the first clue is, but that is settled and as a whole, we are now moving on with certainty.

    In the past, f said that there seems to be 3 or 4 clues in the second stanza of the poem. We know that biwwwh is the first clue; note that he did NOT indicate that atiitcd was part of the first clue, so I feel mostly safe to say that this is the second clue. And depending on my mood, nf,btftw might be considered as part of the second clue too.

    Looking at all the after-the-fact comments, and believe me, I have looked at them all (shameless plug here for my Chasing Words of Forrest Fennn), what is interesting to me is that some of f’s earlier quotes had him indicating that there were a number of searchers who had got the first clue correct, many more than the several who had got the first two clues correct.

    So with the second clue being a canyon, why did so many who had the first clue not get it? And what are the implications of them not having done so? After all, how hard is it to miss a canyon?

    While some searchers pooh-pooh the atf comments, and others give a trivial nod to them, I will say and argue that a person can draw from the full list of all the atf’s and paint a pretty good picture of the tract that the nine clues make up. It is starting to happen In the discussions here, but there are more comments that can be considered that will answer some of the questions people are thinking about and asking. While this won’t take one to the treasure chest nor solve the nine clues, understanding the atf’s and connecting them together can and will eliminate some of the various interpretations of some of the clues that many searchers minds are naturally inclined towards.

    Who was that guy who said “Any part of some is better than no part of any”? 🙂

    • Does all this talk about identifying the first clue refer ro Forrest’s comment about returning to the first clue if you don’t know what it is?

    • JCM, I agree with you that his after the fact statements are helpful in finding the chest, or as you said, at least keep us from going down some of the endless rabbit holes that is the chase.

      If he hadn’t given us his ATF statements Dal would still be driving round and round the Great Salt Lake looking for a canyon down. 🙂

      And this is absolutely not a shameless plug: If someone doesn’t have your “Chasing Words of Forrest Fenn” they are making a mistake unless they have created their own list. Even then, yours is most likely a better list and worth every penny.

    • JCM, about your first clue question. He said many times that folks had solved the first two clues (check your list 🙂 ).

      So if the first two clues are WWWH and canyon down they got hung up on putting in below the home of Brown.

      • Hi Goofy — another scenario to consider: perhaps the reason people (at least until relatively recently) solved only the first two clues but went by all the rest is precisely because they thought “Put in below the home of Brown” must be the third clue. What if it ain’t?

      • IMHO Goofy, I would say that you need a state in which to begin with first that will lead you to the correct, WWWH, since there are so many of them, maybe thousands. And, IMHO that state can be found in the First Stanza. Forrest Fenn said “metaphorically speaking, if you can figure out the first clue, then you are more than halfway there”…..if you figure out what state the chest is in, then that puts you at 1 out of 4, more than halfway. All IMHO, of course.

      • I gotta go with Goofy on this one, JCM {without rechecking and going by memory} I don’t recall any comment about the “first clue” but, only about the “first two clues”… Which I always found interesting.

        However, I do like the ‘thought’ and only a thought, that wwh is only part of a full clue. Maybe a better way of saying it would be, the first two lines of stanza 2 are clues with a single reference? making it one full clue.
        I have asked for thought in the past… how many clues are needed for an answer [ what it refers to ]?
        IMO, a clue might not be a full answer / reference
        Example; NFBTFTW. Many like this as a distance. OK I can agree with that. WhatIF it’s not just a distance [ known or unknown ]? We are told the poem is a map. and like most of the poem… things are seemingly describes as feature… what if this line is “more detailed” with directions. Not unlike what down refers to in the above line.
        Could far; meaning right side, not unlike nigh meaning left side, as a direction? ~ Not one far, but two far to walk or interpreting that as direction on a map to follow… two right turns… without actually saying ~ take two rights, on the map. [ Not one far, but two far, to walk ]

        The same thought can be used for nigh, as left side, or interpret a left turn or west, as in an interpretation of a mapping direction. I mean, we are told to follow the clues “precisely”
        That may include not only descriptions [ canyon for example ] but actual directions at the same time. So, NFBTFTW might not be a clue, as much as, working our way through a clue, line of thinking.

        With this thought ‘process’ in mind… I can see stanza 1 as the same or same effect for begin it wwh. Yet not an actual clue perse.
        Are the words in the poem so simplistic that they can’t intertwine with other word usages… and does the ‘simple one meaning’ of a word give us all the “information” we need?

        Some like down as in elevation only, some like it as south on a map only, some use it as needing to traverse [physically-hike] a canyon only… why can it mean all or most of the usages of the word?
        An elevation drop the heads south down the canyon, line not thinking, without the guess work of one or the other. And the same with; “Far” to walk… looking at directions on a map.

        Just more ramblings and rumblings.

      • No,No,No Goofy,

        He said many times that two different parties/groups/searchers had solved the first two clues. Up until he quit mentioning them, two was all he ever indicated…..I’m pretty dang sure! 🙂

        @SEEKER -> http://dalneitzel.com/2015/11/02/forrest-gets-mail-9/

        “many people have found the first clue but they didn’t know it. “

        • HA! Loco……You right. I forgot about that one. I see what JCM was talking about now.

          But he has said many other times that folks have solved the first two clues and went past the others.

          • I count 14 or 15 times (I may have double counted one as I was scrolling through the llist) that f made the two/several/few searchers figured out the first two clues. f switched from saying two search parties to several in July 2013, and stopped saying several/few in Dec 2014. Then f dropped the ‘maybe 4 clues solved’ in Nov 2015. And nothing since.

            And in a few months we will be two search seasons past that statement… so the big question is whether someone has made any progress since then… after all, they are supposed to get progressively easier as you go.

            But dang, each is still a bugger to figure out. So I will venture to say that those waterfalls, large boulders, and/or power lines that people are identifying as ‘deciphered clues’ are NOT what heavy loads and water high are. Those kind of solutions sound like ‘Sunday afternoon’ or ‘Spring Break’ solves…Just sayin’…

        • UMM Errr…
          This maybe semantics… but, the question related to knowing the first clue, right?
          fenn answered the question about knowing / “know” the first clue or not… buuuuttt… in every other comment about ‘the clues” fenn stated, the first “two” clues.
          Just saying ‘many have found the first clue’ doesn’t take into consideration the question was ‘only about the first clue’… the one clue that we need to nail down, line of thinking.

          This is one of those grey areas I need to think more on.

    • Goofy / Seeker – here are the specific quotes that are the basis for my statement above about many searchers getting only the first clue correct versus the several searchers that got the first two clues correct.

      I did a quick search finding the last time f specifically said that several searchers had deciphered the first two clues correctly. There might be another one since, but the emphasis is on f specifically saying two clues correct.

      Nobody is going to happen upon that treasure chest, you’re gonna have to figure out the clues in the poem and go to it. There are several people that have deciphered the first two clues. I don’t think they knew it, because they walked right on past the treasure chest. And I’m not gonna tell those people who they are because one of them particularly would faint, I know. She’d tear the countryside up trying to figure out where they’d been… (8:20)
      (11/2/13 – Moby Dickens Bookstore Event)
      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=

      Contrast that to these two q&a’s about searchers getting ONLY the first clue correct.

      Q. Forrest, you have stated that several searchers correctly identified the first two clues in your poem. Could you tell us how many searchers to your knowledge have correctly identified the first clue correctly? Thanks. ~49 Dollars
      A. No 49, I cannot tell you how many searchers have identified the first clue correctly, but certainly more than several. I cannot imagine anyone finding the treasure without first identifying the starting point, although many seem to be preoccupied with later clues. To me that’s just expensive folly. f
      (3/26/15)
      http://mysteriouswritings.com/featured-question-with-forrest-first-clue/

      Q. Do expect that people will somehow *know* for sure once they have found the first clue?
      A. No, many people have found the first clue but they don’t know it. Until someone finds the treasure they will not know for sure that they have discovered the first clue.
      Q. Or they might have found it without realizing it?
      A. Yes
      (11/2/15)
      http://dalneitzel.com/2015/11/02/forrest-gets-mail-9/

      So we have the ‘several searchers’ (several – more than two, but not many more than two) who figured out the first two clues correctly as compared to the ‘certainly more than several’ and ‘many people’ who had found the first clue. Yeah, they didn’t know that they had it correct, but they told f what they thought the first clue was and f knew that they had it correct.

      So back to the question, how could ‘many’ have figured out only the first clue and then miss the canyon?

      • JCM,
        as I just posted to loco above… fenn is answering the questions as presented.
        “…Could you tell us how many searchers to your knowledge have correctly identified the first clue correctly? Thanks. ~49 Dollars”
        Even though 49$ started out with the first ‘two’ clues… he asked about the first clue only.
        The same with the next two question from the reporter. Only mentioning the first clue.. to which fenn answered.

        This reminds me of the [Classroom] kids question to fenn… I believe he stated for the kids benefit, he would answer the questions as they are presented. I think that is exactly what he always does… as much as possible anyways.

        • JCM, ‘scuse me while I jump on Seeker! 🙂

          Seeker, no one is contesting what the question was! Fenn’s answers to both questions undeniably indicate that there are ‘many’ more who have identified/found the first clue, as opposed to the number who have solved the first two clues.

          So, JCM’s question has merit and stands, “How could ‘many’ have figured out only the first clue and then miss the canyon(or whatever the second clue is)?

          🙂

          • Mr. Fenn:  In the past when you have said that several people had figured out the first two clues and then went right past the other clues, would you say that they got lucky and just happened to go to the correct starting area, not fully understanding the poem, or would you say that they did indeed solve the first two clues by understanding the poem and clues? C
            Searchers have routinely revealed where they think the treasure was hidden and walked me through the process that took them on that course. That’s how I know a few have identified the first two clues. Although others were at the starting point I think their arrival was an aberration and they were oblivious to its connection with the poem. Playing a hunch is not worth much in the search and those who start out by looking for the blaze, are wasting their time.f

            We have the use of “a few” here. But again, this question asked about the first two clues.

            In part; I’m sure you remember this long answer…
            “Now I will test you Wordsmith. Write down the full definition of the word “several.” Then Google it and learn that many of us don’t fully understand some of the words we use every day.f ”

            What I don’t have at the ready is the complete time line of when the questions were asked or statement made. Each time a comment is made, i’m sure more e-mails had been sent to fenn. changing up words like ‘a few’ ‘several’ ‘more than several.’ [ and if i’m not mistaken one comment might have mentioned ~more each year or something like that]

            Even this one; *~ “Several months ago some folks correctly mentioned the first two clues to me in an email and then they went right past the other seven, not knowing that they had been so close. Alas, and dame fortune, so often a fickle and seductive wench, never spun her wheel to lure them back.”
            We have “some folks…” how do we calculate “some”?

            LOL… How about ~ “Sure, I mean people have figured the first couple of clues and unfortunately walked past the treasure chest”
            How do we put a number on “people”?

            I do understand what JCM is inquiring. Yet each comment the change in wording not only seems to relate to a clue or clues, but time that has past.
            By JCM dictionary use of several… does “some” fall into the same definition? a few? or even “more than”? or “people” as being several or more than?

            LOL… I fit into an 11.5… what size stompers do you ware… But I have to conceive, Ya made me look.

          • Hows about we don’t go into a canyon?
            He pretty much said so when he said and i am paraphrasing

            An 80 year old man iant going to go down and up a canyon twice

            Lugnutz

          • Seeker – As related to ‘some folks’, ‘people’, ‘some few’ who figured out the first two clues, Note that in comments on the subject that f used terms like ‘two different parties’, ‘several parties’, ‘search parties’, and ‘She’d tear the countryside up trying to figure out where they’d been’.

            So I feel it safe to say that you can have “more than several” people who had figured out the first two clues early on because those who had figured out the first two clues and got close were groups of people – search parties – not just a single person out looking.

            And since those first couple of years, I suspect there have been more people (and/or search parties) who have correctly identified the first two clues. Look at f’s comment from this last December about people who got his attention:

            ‘Many searchers told me the general area in which they are looking. I didn’t read the long emails, but in most of the short ones I looked for key words that would get my attention. Several did this year and I hope my lack of an email response was not taken as a clue.’

            IMO, people are still getting, and new people will continue to get the first clue correct. A smaller portion of those will continue getting or will get the second clue correct. And many people have and more will continue to arrive within 500 feet of the chest, with fewer getting within 200 feet as the gold repeatedly becomes alert to the tromp and vibrations of searchers hiking boots.

      • JCM-
        I’ll chime in here on your last question:
        how could ‘many’ have figured out only the first clue and then miss the canyon?

        I think the answer is because there is more than one possibility for ‘and take it in the canyon down’ from WWWH.

        I think most people take the obvious direction…
        For instance…downstream…but that may not be the correct direction…

        Further…this may not be the only place in the solution with multiple possible directions to move in..

        So the poem becomes a bit of a labyrinth…with multiple choices at each step…and the obvious choice may not be the correct choice.
        You could get the first one correct but head out in the wrong direction and miss the next one…this could happen at any clue.

        But you still might have gone past the chest depending upon which direction you came from to get to WWWH…

        This, of course is just an opinion of mine and I have no reason to believe this is fact…other than the belief that this has proven true in my own labyrinth of a solution…which is probably not the correct solution anyway…

        One problem with all this is that you can’t very well move with confidence from clue to clue until you have solved them all…

        Another is that it does not get any easier once you identify the place WWWH.

        A labyrinth and a conundrum.

          • Dal, I could of sworn I heard a late night radio interview with you a few months back on a New Mexico radio station. Did that happen?

            Best,

            Mateo

          • It’s possible. I talk in my sleep. But I don’t recall volunteering to be on a late night talk show.

      • JCM – thanks for raising a question that has itched my furry brain for months now re: “many people have found the first clue but they don’t know it/several people that have deciphered the first two clues. I don’t think they knew it” – how could they be at the correct location BOTG, yet not even know it?

        my only two logical conclusions are:
        #1 – they started their search further along the clue-list and accidentally stumbled back to the first clues without realising it, which seems to conflict with Forrests ‘if ya haven’t solved the first clue, play canasta’ statement

        #2 – they had solved their own ‘edition’ of what they considered the first clues to be, which was (by chance) in close proximity to the ‘actual’ clues

        I tend to agree with Dal’s ‘clue-duality’ theory in-so-much-as, for every clue location there are maybe multiple possibilities. Admittedly ‘canyon down’ seems to suggest an obvious decline in altitude, but ‘canyon south’ is even more viable, esp given that it’s the less obvious of the two, yet just as effective in it’s meaning

        so, what if every geographical clue location has multiple solves, and we’re all flippantly accepting the most obvious solution in our hurry to move onto the next clue while remaining oblivious to the ‘real’ clue hidden within the same location – should we be searching for two examples of WWWH in the same area, or two ‘heavy loads’..and THEN determining where to go next?

        ( ..i personally would walk with alot more confidence knowing there were more than one option per clue 🙂 )

    • So, you finally decide to weigh in, about time!!! 🙂

      Yes, it appears that we can stop washing, rinsing and repeating that rag. It was getting a little threadnbare. But, it maybe a premature to celebrate.

      We may be certain that WWWH is the first clue, so per Fenn we have something. But now, we need to correctly interpret it. And then we have to definitively identify what the second clue is, within the poem. Then we must decipher the second clue. Only then can we possibly proceed to where the seven clues, that were walked past, are located. LOL!!

      If the first stanza helps to correctly identify WWWH, then I would agree that atiitcd and maybe nf,btftw would be the second clue. Not going to definitively subscribe to that until stanza 1 proves helpful in deciphering WWWH.

      Yes, as you, I have given thought to the many who have solved the first clue. He seems to have said that it is the most important clue? How/why?? It takes the first TWO clues to advanca, or so it seems. The first clue alone cannot describe a specific location; area or locale, maybe??

      And, there is still a distinct possibility that canyon is not the accepted, everyday usage that we expect—cue Seeker’s ‘multple meanings’!!

      I agree, as you know, that the after the fact comments can provide a great deal of information about about all aspects of the Chase. Especially if you keep them in context and group them. For me, they are immensely more informative/useful than the books.

      OK, JCM, I seem to be writing a lot and saying less these last few days!! Stay engaged dude and Good Luck to Ya!!…..loco 🙂 

      • Loco,
        This post o your reminds me of the question about the sealing of the jar. [ why it reminds me…lol… well, that is just the way my mind works. lets leave it at that ].
        But the point is how fenn presents answers… with what I like to call… information for thought.
        While fenn was going through the process of sealing the jar, he added [ paraphrasing ] ~Although i don’t want to say yet the chest is not in water… he didn’t want moisture in the jar.
        Then, come out with safety first… the chest is not under water.

        I’m not saying he’s hinting… I’m not really likening that word much.. lol. But he does seem to give information for thought, and at the same time answers the question as presented… in most cases I can recall.

        • Excellent posts, Dal, JCM and locolobo! l agree there are a lot of ways in to where I believe the treasure lies, using Dal’s same Where Warm Waters halt location.. ‘It’ all depends on the time of year and the mode of transportation and what “it” is, in the poem, in my opinion.

          • Didn’t Forrest say something about wanting to canoe around the entire shoreline of Hebgen Lake to go fly fishing again? That would be a pretty roundabout way to find his way not after frame to the plugs chest if it’s located somewhere below Hebgen Dam, wouldn’t it?

    • OK, one more about ideas I see tossed around about the first two clues (or 3, or 4…) being in a small area (e.g. at a waterfall) and drops/ cliffs causing TFTW.

      Q. In the poem, Thrill of The Chase when you talk about “Not far, but too far to walk” and “Take it
      in the canyon down,” is it referring to a waterfall.
      A. You guys seem to be hung up on waterfalls. Don’t try to change my poem to fit your ideas.
      (2/8/17)
      http://dalneitzel.com/2017/02/08/forrest-gets-mail-13/

      So scratch the idea that a bunch of the clues at the beginning all happen at a water fall.

      Sorry if that ruins anyone’s solve, you can thank me later when you didn’t spend $3000 in travel expenses, charged to a credit card, and taken a week of vacation time off from work. 🙂

      • LOL… we’re getting closer to what wwwh is not. Maybe in 100 years, and more ATF’s, we might know what it actually is.

        But I’m sure someone will want a definition of what a waterfall or water fall is.

  27. While everyone else is posting bare feet on some sunny beach in their vacation photos, here’s me using my legs to push up an old half-buried steam shovel so that I can poke around in the dirt underneath, just because an eccentric millionaire said “If you find the treasure many of your worries will doze off into the sunset.” #realadventures

    https://www.instagram.com/p/BWVKzu_lqsr/

  28. I think we should start a pool for the “date of announcement by FF that the TC is found”. Not the date it was found – but the date FF announces that it had been found. It could be winner take all for the closest to the date. Any thought on putting something like this together?

    • Dal Neitzal was arrested today on charges of facilitating an illegal gambling website on US soil. More at 11….

      • That’s funny Ryan.

        To set the record straight, Dal is a straight up guy and wasn’t arrested today! Your comment was in jest and certainly taken as a joke.

        Thanks Dal for giving us a place to talk about the chase! and have fun!

  29. Mike, et al, perhaps Forrest meant “yell,”OW”

    Satellite photo is just down the road from quake lake on the big bend of the Madison River.

    NOTE the “OW” image with fish hook across from Madison Rivers topo image of outline of India or Africa.

    IMO these are the type of images a pilot references and what folks should be paying attention to. Btw – I’ve mapped this area over ffs poem nicely – but more convinced it’s One place where the treasure “lies/fibs” and it more likely sits in New Mexico not far from Forrest’s current home.

    Since my four years of searching her over, perhaps this perspective will help others .

    caltopo.com/map.html

  30. @USMC1989:
    I saw your introduction over on the searcher introduction page. We don’t allow comments over there except for the introductions from searchers so I copied your comment over here so I could answer your question.

    You wrote:
    I am finally brave enough to put my name in the hat and beginning my TOTC! However it was very upsetting when I sat down at my computer and saw this video…
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jQ5fWkYb708&t=21s
    Just wondering how many others saw it?
    I don’t want to believe it’s true but I am to new at this to know.
    I am going to try to jump in a little more on the 9 clues because there are some really great ideas popping up lately.
    So Good Luck Everyone, stay safe, and hopefully I may get to see some when I actually get to take a few weeks and actually look for the treasure.

    I wouldn’t let the video bother you at all. It’s just one in a very long line of searchers that claim the chest is no longer there.

    I watched it, that’s 30 minutes I’ll never get back. It was like watching a never ending late night TV commercial. These guys are quite comical. Once you get into researching you’ll see how many there have been.

    Welcome to the chase and good hunting.

    • Ha! I had to see what the fuss was all about. This would be a good argument against legalized marijuana in CO.
      Absolutely no thought to 100 years down the road, nevertheless a 1000 plus years. And yet again, the same old same old… someone got to the chest before me.

      Goofy, do you remember the lady and her husband from VT who took pics of the chest and stayed two night with it but had to leave it and go home to tend the cattle because no one was looking after them.
      Or the two guys who claimed the blaze was a tree and someone took the dang tree?

      USMC1989, Like Goofy said, there are many who claim a lot… the chest is gone because there solve is so perfect it had to be there. Other’s who claim to have pics of the chest but never ever show them. Oh! how I wish you were around for the alien egg theory! I’m sure you would have gotten a kick out of that one.
      Come and chat, give thoughts… and be brave when entering the deep dark wood. [ woods?]

    • Zap,
      We do have fenn saying he hid it in summer.
      He stated he hid the chest when he was 79 -80.
      Tells us don’t go where an 80 yr old man carrying a heavy backpack can’t go.
      Reminds us constantly he was almost 80 when he hit the chest.
      We also know fenn’s B’day

      Is it a fact it was hidden “in the summer of 2010″… nope, not a fact as of yet. But it’s not a bad guess. What it really does, it makes for a good headline. You can bet folks are drinking it up.

          • pdenver has pointed to the most valid and specific answer to when f hid the chest… when he was about 80.

            Good work pdenver!

        • It make perfect sense to me, PD.
          Although I do have some thoughts of my own as to why summer, from the poem. [besides to let the mud dry].

          Not unlike fenn saying he could have written the poem before he hid the chest, but didn’t.
          IMO, this might mean he could have written the poem prior to the reason[s] he actually did write the poem and started the challenge… we are looking for a place, and not so much a chest.. that is a lure. So the place is more than likely known to fenn prior to 1988.

          If correct in my assumption… does it really help with the clues? We already know he knew where he wanted the chest to be… his special place, right.
          How would knowing this help… just like how would knowing what year he hid it help with solving the clues?
          Sure this all revolves around Forrest Fenn… but do the clues revolve around him?

          I think the only reason for not letting out the year of hiding the chest is mainly, deniability for his family… Like fenn said; even Peggy didn’t know within months of hiding the chest.
          Yet, she did know about the chest, the idea behind it all, the book to be published, and for 20 plus years in the making etc. etc. and so did many others.

          Some of which have looked for the chest themselves… lol, it doesn’t seem to help them anymore than us.
          If I was to put any serious thought to when anything was started or done… I would ask; why it took so long to act on the final steps… from start to finish 1988 [ first thought ] 2010 [ book published ] Its more a curiosity for me, than a need to know.

          • I think if we look at seasons, it may give the reason why summer was chosen. Winter is too difficult. Spring is a transitional season, just as fall is. There could be other reasons, but these seem to be good possibilities.

            This is an opinion, offered as a thought.

          • I’m really not sure if knowing when he hid it would really make a difference when figuring out the poem. Do you?

          • Hi PDenver — oh, when he hid it makes absolutely no difference to me. I was just disputing that Forrest had ever unequivocally *said* that he hid it in the summer of 2010. People have inferred it from some of his statements, but I’ve seen know evidence that he ever said it outright. Personally, I think he hid it in August 2010, but it makes little difference.

            As for bringing up safety as an excuse for when he hid it, I would counter that with his comment that he could probably retrieve it in any weather. Mind you, “any weather” is not the same as “any season”.

          • Seeker –

            You have made a profound observation and I hope our friends here think on it.

            We are looking for a place that Fenn wants ua to enjoy. It is the place that matters. We you find that place there is a reward.

            I am looking for that place and the treasure adds value for me only insomuch as it is hostorical and beautiful.

            Lugnutz

          • And I will add a thought here Seeker.
            JCM and Zap will say there is absolutely no basis to suggest this.

            Maybe he was 78 or 81.

            Winky face wink,
            Lugnutz

          • In the Moby Dickens event, he also said that he got cancer in 1988 and hid the treasure 15 years later… (9-10 minute mark) 1988 +15 =/ 2009 or 2010

          • Your math is off. 1988 + 15 is 2003. And it’s potentially an interesting issue if there were changes to land use in the hiding area between 2003 and 2010.

          • I was thinking != myself. He said it twice in that interview. “It was 15 years from the time…” *dramatic pause* “15 years”

            On a somewhat related note, I didn’t realize how complex the English language was until I started teaching it to Spanish speaking people in the Dominican Republic. Forrest has proven to me that we have a problem using even the most basic English properly.

            For example, Forrest uses some vague pronouns in Important Literature where he goes out of his way to describe the antecedent. What’s the antecedent for the first “it”? Is it the same as the one for the 2nd?
            Maybe it’s: Alone and with, keep my secret and hint, halt and take. Meanimg: Alone and also with, keep my secret and also hint, where waters halt and also take. Not far and also too far to walk. From my experience, proper research is always faster when negation is used. /= !=

            Other areas of the book show that he understands how to use pronouns “properly” but in case the books aren’t enough and you ever wonder if Forrest Fenn is learned or not…

            I’m sure I’m not the only one who’s read about the Clovis and Beyond conference in 1999 and Forrest’s response to Dr. Joe Watkins. Keep in mind that this thing was written in 1999 or 2000. Google didn’t exist and all other search engines were garbage. How many of us could have written such a response even with the resources we have today? I don’t think there are too many of us who could, and fewer who actually would. At least not pre-FF.

            Dr. Joe Watkins waited until he was across the river before he made the alligator mad but he didn’t realize the alligator was instead the slyest fox he’d ever encounter. Chickens shouldn’t ever anger alligators or foxes.

            The fox would have you believe he’s a hound or even something less cunning. He took his hound suit off when he wrote that response. If the only thing I knew about the man was that article, and he later looked me in the eye and told me he was a poor student who couldn’t make it in college, I’d call him a bold faced liar right then and there…then I’d ask him if he was hiring.

          • I could have written the poem before I hid the treasure chest, but I didn’t. f

            To me this tells us that there is an element of time designed into the poem in finding the chest.
            Add in… Tarry scant with marvel gaze….
            Add in… If you have a searching partner, best to have them WAIT in the car….
            Add in… you need a flashlight and a sandwich (sandwich to eat while you’re waiting after dark)
            Add in… you only really need the flashlight if you’re searching at night…
            Add in… Hopefully, finding the treasure will offset many days of disappointment. f (what offsets days? Nights)
            Add in… It will be there for as long as time has to come, or until you find it.
            Add in… Urgency is not a good plan to fallow (slow down and wait)
            From what I can tell, there is a waiting involved to find the chest, when it’s position is revealed. If the poem was published, then Forrest STILL had time to hide the chest, as the poem requires the element of TIME to find it. That’s just my opinion anyhow.

          • I could have written the poem before I hid the treasure chest, but I didn’t. f

            -Or- he wants us to pay attention to stanza 1 and 5. This is a bad example but just for fun:

            If he had written the poem in 2010 but did not hide the chest then but promised to go hide it in say 2020, then what does the first 2 lines of the poem mean? Or riches new and old? what about the whole 5th stanza?

          • Iron Will, this is interesting, but I also thought he said if we knew where it was, we could get it anytime. It’s possible I’m misunderstanding what was said or meant.

          • PD ~ I’m really not sure if knowing when he hid it would really make a difference when figuring out the poem. Do you?

            I have thoughts that might relate to the poem or that I see in the poem. Not a year but a season. So when fenn finally stated, hid the chest summer… things started clicking in that direction

            Then again, fenn could have said it was summer to help us in thought, not to try and retrieve the chest in March [ which some like to think halt relates to] or December’s winter solstice [ because some like that for effort be worth the cold.]

            But thinking about those possibilities is what we should be doing while “analyzing” the poem… however… we also need to remember the warnings; don’t go where an 80 yrs carrying a heavy backpack can’t… I highly doubt fenn would drudge through 2 plus feet of snow, freezing conditions, twice in one afternoon because we think he had to, because of the above thoughts.

            It’s simply a process of elimination to what is feasible and reasonable, compared to driving into the mountains in bad conditions because that is the only way the poem works for some folks solve.

            I’d say… rethink your solve. fenn’s warning ~ don’t get target fixated.

            And before someone jumps in and says, what about being able to retrieve the chest in any weather comment if you know where it is??… The key words are ‘know where it is’
            That seems to imply that the chest is basically in a spot that we can retrieve it, and it won’t be a difficult task… That alone should give pause to in or under water… I’m not bringing motorize post hole digger to drill through 6″ of ice… I don’t think fenn meant us to either.
            I also think that we as searcher should consider… just getting there to the location for a search… needs common sense thinking.

            No offense DG, but her story about traveling to Montana in the middle of winter is a good example of what not to do [and I think she would agree with me]… but I do like the guts that gal has. Look up the word resoluteness, and I’d bet there’s a picture of her.

          • Seeker, I think Forrest did write, or attempt to write the Poem about his “Special Place” way before he hid it, but something was not complete, remember when I tried to convince everyone in 2013 that “His father William Marvin Fenn would know where he hid the chest” almost got nuked off the blog for saying that, now that is accepted knowledge.

            My contention was verified eventually and many asked “well what difference does this revelation about his father make?”

            Timeline and action line allow one to achieved that goal of solving, staying in the border of each is the key, so these intersecting lines are IMO how every detective including Sherlock solves the crime, it takes imagination, so Imagine that his father went to ff’s special place when he was 80, that would have been about 6 or seven years before his fathers death. Fenn would have still owned the Gallery, the plane and he would have been rubbing elbows with Eric Sloane, Ralph Lauren, Robert Redford and Jackie K, just a complete plethora of influences. What I cannot believe is ff saying a nowlege of History is not important? ff said and I paraphrased “Napoleon said History is merely fables agreed upon”, I assume by the Victors.

            Why is the timeline important you ask, what if the only months you could safely retrieve Indulgence were July, August and September, although he said if we knew where it was we could theoretically retrieve it any time of the year, but in my 70 years of living in the mountains of New Mexico if you hiked into 9,000 ft elevation in June, well good luck, bring your dogsled, snowmobile etc. even a great kayak-er could not shush down most rivers till then, too dangerous as we are unfortunately learning at great expense.

            Forrest came to Santa Fe permanently in 1972, so IF the special place came into his reverie in 72 what was he searching for in that time frame? As we all wanted to say in the 1960 and 70’s PEACE, LOVE, DOPE.

            The writings at the end of My War for me seem to verify, a mountain top, a peaceful waterfall, a stream and a river bottom, all the ingredients for his church in the mountains, It was all there, just too far too walk. ff sayin history not being important just does not make sense?

            TT

          • IW~ “Add in… you need a flashlight and a sandwich (sandwich to eat while you’re waiting after dark)”
            ” Add in… you only really need the flashlight if you’re searching at night…”

            Q– People have become fixated on you telling them to bring a sandwich and a flashlight.  Are they just wasting their time focusing on these things as clues? 
            FF: They certainly are not clues.

            I agree time might be a factor… But the flashlight and snack comment, I believe was in Western Magazine or something, about special tools required. [ personally I think this was another fenn’s attempt for safety tips]
            I have to wonder if “needed,” would that not be considered a clue? or at the very least, a special requirement to use with a clue?

          • A flashlight as a special requirement to be used with a clue.

            Now that has to be one of the top 5 most insightful statements made on this blog, in my humble experience. (I thought about saying opinion but that would an inaccuracy that shares three borders with lying.)

          • Hello Seeker, in response to whether or not knowing when Mr. Fenn went to hide is important, I don’t believe it necessarily is. As mentioned before, seasons may be a factor, but so is convenience to hide it without anyone else knowing. If by thinking for those searching Yellowstone, timing may be a factor. I believe the majority of the entrances closes around mid-September, and reopens around mid-May. I speak of Yellowstone in Wyoming. These are just thoughts, but not sure if they amount to anything.

          • Hello Zap. In regards to your comment, it’s possible he may have hid it in August, although it would only give him 21 days to do so in order to claim he hid it when he was almost eighty. As for the weather comment, would you retrieve it in severe weather such as a thunderstorm, hail, blizzard, etc.? I think some of this might be to use our common sense in regards to this statement, although I could be wrong.

            This is an opinion, offered as a thought.

          • (Second try.) Zap, he may have hid it in August, although to claim he was near eighty, it would only give him 21 days to do so, and I “think” he might have said he was eighty if it had been done in August, but definitely could be wrong. Also, in regards to the weather comment, would you retrieve it in severe weather such as a thunderstorm, hail, blizzard, etc.? I believe the statement may warrant common sense, but again, I could be wrong.

            This is an opinion, offered as a thought.

          • Sorry bout not replying promptly. I’m working night shift and am asleep all day.

            Pdenver- Yes if you know where it is, time is of no matter. The poem, nor his book, is needed if you know where it is at… and you could truly get it any time you wish. (See reply to Seeker for detailed explanation)

            Seeker- I always use logic with my opinions on things, so let me try to break down what I meant by that and why I think it’s found at night.
            Forrest said to bring a flashlight and a sandwich. He also said, “the flashlight is only necessary if you are searching at night.”
            So if you only need it to search at night, and he tells you to bring it… logic then demands that you will need to be at the location at night to find it.

            IMO, that’s the “Tarry scant with marvel gaze” you are waiting at the blaze location for a glow or light to appear at the location of the chest, which will come on at night (at a certain time I suspect.) All of those “ADD INs” I listed were just sort of supporting statements from Forrest that help shore up that idea.

          • Iron – I think your logic in this instance may suffer a bit from the logical fallacy “affirming the consequent’.

          • IW,
            You and I just read the comment differently… not unlike many read the poem itself… That’s fine.
            But what I read is;
            the flashlight is **only necessary IF** you are searching at night.”

            The Only IF doesn’t say a ~must need for a solve~ It simply saying, if you, as a searcher, decide to search at night it would be necessary to have a flashlight at night…lol… I guess he could have said, night time vision goggles or a torch, but IF YOU ARE searching at night bring some light with you in areas that have no lights other than twinkling stars and moonlight…

            The Q&A imo, cleared up the comment a flashlight and a snack as clues, are certainly not clues.
            That’s my logical thinking.

            How about this Q&A?

            ~Hi Forrest, I would like to know if the blaze can be found during the day without a flashlight. Thanks, Ron
            ~Perhaps your question is wrought with trickiness Ron. Are you really asking if the blaze could be in a cave where it is dark during the day, thus the need of a flashlight? If there is no subterfuge intended in your question then I would say yes.f

            The blaze can be found during the day… no flashlight needed.

            You stated; ~ IMO, that’s the “Tarry scant with marvel gaze” ***you are waiting at the blaze location for a glow or light to appear at the location of the chest,*** which will come on at night (at a certain time I suspect.)

            So I’m assuming your blaze site is, a place that can be found in the day as well… So, if your waiting for another light or glow to appear… What is the “need”/”purpose” of a flashlight for solving the clue[s]? Other than a good idea for moving around at night in the woodlands.

          • Seeker, I got to correct you. 1988 was when cancer was removed, December. In the book, he stated, when the probability of my fate hit bottom, I got an idea”. He was given a 20% chance to last 3 years. This means every 20% equals 9 months. 0% would be 45 months. So, the bottom of his fate would be 45 months counting from December of 1988, or august 1991.August 1991 is when he got an idea (first thought).
            Even though it doesn’t matter, just want you to have the correct info.

      • Hi Seeker — if we really wanted to play “lawyer” with Forrest’s comments, then here are the range of dates that Forrest could have hidden Indulgence:

        1. August 22, 2009 – September 22, 2009
        2. December 21, 2009 – March 20, 2010
        3. June 21, 2010 – September 22, 2010
        4. December 21, 2010 – March 20, 2011
        5. June 21, 2011 – August 21, 2011

        Date ranges 2 and 4 are a nod to Curious Hobbit. Forrest said summer. He didn’t say summer “where”. 😉 (No, I don’t seriously think those options are realistic for other reasons, but it’s fun to try to think like Forrest and tell the truth but not the WHOLE truth.)

        • Zap – there are the technical dates of summer, and then there are the months that feel like summer. I think that what f considers summer might extend a little outside the official calendar dates…

          TTOTC – Flywater

          ‘June, July and August in Yellowstone seemed to pass so fast when I was a kid that I often wondered if maybe summer somehow missed the turn there.’

          I would be inclined to include all of June in f’s definition of summer.

          And if f hid it in 2010, he did so in June or early July.

          ‘I got reacquainted with Forrest a few years ago, and then, when I was down in Santa Fe in July of 2010… we had lunch together and he said he’d hidden a treasure box, a box full of gold, and was just finishing up a book with clues on how to find it.’

        • I started this in February of 2011, so 4, and 5 are doubtful since the chest was already hidden. He hid before poem end, so before August of 2010. At 79 years old, would be the Summer of 2010. Summer began June 21,2010. So, June, July, August of 2010. So, I go with number 3, final answer…

        • Hi Charlie: tongue-in-cheek comments aside, options 1 and 3 are really the only ones in play. The Santa Fe bookstore website says the book was published 1-1-2010. However, it wasn’t released until mid-October 2010. Because of Forrest’s 79/80 comments, either date range will work. Nevertheless, I think August 2010 pretty likely.

        • Zapster – yes, i’ve searched my summer upside-down sphere, but alas no sign of the TC
          ( ..maybe it’s in the Rockies after all 🙂 )

          & yes, i believe Forrest always tells the truth in his remarks/hints and clues, but am convinced that he deliberately leaves the interpretations open-ended, so he can’t be rightfully blamed if we all arrive at our completely wrong conclusions
          🙂

  31. locolobo wrote: “If the first stanza helps to correctly identify WWWH, then I would agree that atiitcd and maybe nf,btftw would be the second clue.”
    —————————————————————————————————–
    loco … I might disagree with you on that. How ’bout this >>> WWWH is the first clue; then “and take it in the canyon down” is still part of the first clue. The logic here would be that WWWH give us a starting point, and canyon down gives us a direction to go from starting point. Then …

    … “not far but …” is the second clue. Logic here is that once we know which direction to go, “not far but ,,.” gives us the distance. Thus the first two clues make up a mathematical vector of direction and distance.

    Searchers who figured out the first 2 clues, in this theory, messed up in their interpretation of clue #3; they were looking for a HOB but didn’t find it.

    Ken (in Texas)

    • Or Ken, they mistakenly thought “Not far, but too far to walk” was a distance. What if it’s not? What if that line *is* clue #3? I propose that those early “several” groups that solved the first two clues and went right on past all the others is that they were looking for home of Brown, thinking it was the next clue to solve.

    • this is what I think happens a lot – is that it sends you south on canyon down from wwwh to find HOB- togather HOB and WWWH tells you that you are in the right place what I think is that people are not going back to wwwh like it says – but in below hob – why go back to wwwh if I just came from there well imo that what he is saying is from hob don’t go south any farther or go east or west from hob -but go back north to wwwh to begin it its just an opinion

  32. Wow. Time really flies! At the end of this month it will be a year since I first heard about the Chase. It sure has been a load of fun. Thank you Forrest! I’m going to find that darn chest, return the bracelet, and going fly-fishing with you real soon. 🙂

    • Not if I get to it first, Sparrow! 😉

      But seriously, Happy Chase-aversary! I guess it’s been a year and a few months since I first learned about the Chase, though I pretty much forgot about it for 8 or 9 months before I actually started trying to come up with a solve.

      Have you gotten a chance to do a BOTG search yet?

      • Blex—

        No BOTG–I live in California and just waiting for a good confirmation before I go. I’ll have to make the time at that point—but I will do it. I wish you all the best on the Chase too my friend! Good luck to you! 🙂

          • Blex,

            If you have any contact info or if Dal
            can give you my email we could
            chat for a bit if you want. If you strictly
            want to go it 100% alone, it’s cool.
            Either way, thanks for your helpful
            indexing effort.

  33. Some of these well thought out solutions above remind me of a famous Confucius saying, and ff may have alluded to it several times: (It) (Poem) (and) Life is really simple, but we insist on making it complicated.”

    I truly believe the 9 clues and hints are pretty straight forward and we all simply overthink it, if there are clues that move us closer to the the TC with each solve, then there are certainly HINTS that confirm those clues, as he said they have been SPRINKLED in the Thrill Book and IMO hints run like a river through the poem.

    Forrest gets his kicks, I think and he even SPRINKLES these hints in his comments, scrapbooks and interviews, just to watch as we COMPLICATE his architectural design. Just ask yourself what the weather was like on page 9 TTOTC? Could Borders and Border Line Biddies be an attempt to tease the brightest among the searchers into a understanding a Hint? Yes it is official, the first clue in For Whom the Bell Tolls was WW1, well no its WWWH or its http://WWW.http or Spanish Rev. or what ever, the point is it was Borders and those little tiny, tiny, itty bitty lines that make em. Re-read IMPORTANT LITERATURE, PAGE 9….thru 14

    The question in my mind remains; which border, the one at 32 degrees, Texas, New Mexico, and Old Mexico, or is it 36 degrees at Border of Colorado, or Wyoming at _ _ degrees and what is our Latitude? Sooner or later one of us will see the big picture, and that Map we call a Poem will all make sense.

    How many degrees is it at the North Pole? How far Olga’s ashes, Colorado Border, Skippy’s untimely depth when he accidentally drowned? Page 51 minus postmark 141 equals 90? Now I think I understand why ff said he was not good at math, he seems to be stuck on 9, 90, and something tells me it’s a catch 22.

    TT

    • Hi Tom Terrific –

      I think you are right and I think no one cares.
      The answer to Zap’s longing to know why Fenn misquotes, and in particular, reverse quotes things is two fold. First, he makes mistakes and second he does if for FUN. It is especially fun to misquote something that is wholly insignificant if you know somone will run with it till the end of time!

      For the record Fenn misstates and misquotes and misspells in ALL HIS BOOKS. The man does not care about your opinion on the matter, or anyone’s opinion for that matter.

      To Fenn underwater and under water are the same. Waterfall and waterfell are the same. He doesn’t believe the b in comb serves a purpose.

      These are my opinions about Fenn. My opinions are based on reading and listening to Fenn without bias towards a solve or a location.

      I mean, my God, the man cannot go 5 minutes without making a mistake. Are they all intentional? Are they all hints? Even in the cases where Dal has written back to ask Fenn about the inconsistencies Fenn tells him to let ’em ride.

      Here is the most important thing to know. IF someone finds the chest you don’t get to say ~ Hey way a minute the location or sequence of clues runs contrary to what Fenn said at the 9 minute mark of the Moby Dickens tape!

      Lugnutz

        • Thanks JD!

          Let me tell you a quick story.
          I was driving back to Chicago from one of the college towns in southernish Illinois and I took a wrong turn. We ended up in Danville and did not know how to get home.

          We went into a bar to have a beer and ask directions. The bartender gave us the beer in cans and basically told us to get the heck out of there! Then a guy comes over to intercede on our behalf. When had a a few beers with him and he introduced us to a poll game called 3 ball. I’ts a gambling game and he took ALL of our money.

          I was the last person out of the bar and he yelled after me “If your ever in Danville again kid, kick the door open and yell rack the (explitive) balls JD!”

          Lugnutz

      • Hi Lugnutz — you are certainly welcome to believe that the mistakes are not hints and that Forrest is simply having fun seeing who is paying attention. But allow for the possibility that some day you may feel quite differently.

        • Lyle Kittle –

          Some of my friends in the canyon get so deep they cannot see the forest for the trees.

          Lugnutz

          • Now I am really stretching things, but people who have a colorblind issue to Brown seem to see a dark green. Talk about seeing the forest from the tree….

          • I like you’re thinking Bob. I think stretching is good and not too dangerous if done responsibly. I’ve actually read through the book with VR goggles that let me see the world as though I was color blind. I got the idea when Forrest wrote about recovering some of his senses after operation Arc Light. That’s when I learned all about pareidolia. So I had my wife and kids look at specific things that I could see. Out of the 6 of us, 3 of us could see things that the other 3 could not. There was one thing in particular, however, that we could all see and I think it is extremely important, if not necessary to find the end of the rainbow and the treasure.

            That pareidolia ain’t no joke. I started seeing letters in my floor and in the textures on the wall…everywhere! However, overall I love the new lenses that the chase has given me.

  34. I took my troubles down to Madam Ruth, you know that Gypsy with the gold capped tooth, she’s got a pad down on 34th and Vine, selling little bottles of ……

  35. Lugnutz, JD and anyone with ears on think about what course line on a compass would one steer from Santa Fe, NM Airport to Cody, Wy, you know there are 630 characters in his poem, and it was 45 miles up and back to deposit Olga’s ashes, and 32 inches in that tiny tub.

    Does anyone know how to navigate on this blog? Hear Ye Hear Ye..

    TT

    • TT –

      I have spent some time looking at those types of numbers. This never goes anywhere, at least not for me.

      As long as you are looking there are many interesting places along the 45th parallel.

      Lugnutz

  36. Tom, Do you have a reason to believe the 90 mi trip flight was round trip milage, or just a guess? The small bathtub was 36″
    I keep coming across descriptions of circles on squares (like the NM symbol, or like the cross hairs in a gun sight) … pie factory on the corner of First & French, or, push a nickel under her grave marker (assuming grave marker is a cross), shooting marbles across a circle, etc. That pie and grandma thing is a little too dominant in the stories to be accidental.

    • OS2 The actual mountain in question was Pueblo Peak, AKA Taos Mountain, just east and smidgen north of Taos Pueblo, it has been revered as a holy place for over 1000 years according to Tao-s natives, it is per Google Earth as I stated before, about 69 miles from Santa Fe Airport. However ff said 90, which would be the exact distance to the Colorado Border as a Crow Flies.

      The reason I misstated the bathtub at 32 ” was to play the Joker, trickster, the Coyote, like Fenn does sayin stuff like Alexander Hamilton was shot on the $100 bill when we all see Franklin when we get lucky enough to have a hundred.

      At the festivals each year in Taos and other New Mexico Pueblos, there is often a tribal member who plays that role of COyote, TRickster, or Joker, sometimes they even dress as https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kokopelli and carry or occasionally play a flute, see a Hopi Joker/Clown http://kachina.us/clown.htm

      With ff’s many dealings in art, culture, and anthropology/archaeology he has been around this thinking for all his time in Santa Fe and before in Texas as well. The first of his book is a hint to his usage of the Coyote, Joker, Trickster it was put this way “Life deals you 5 cards and a joker” is clearly stated on page 5 of THrill Book, so did you catch that one, Simon Says?

      FF said 4

      But the Tubb says 5
      http://www.metrolyrics.com/im-waiting-for-ships-that-never-come-in-lyrics-ernest-tubb.html
      Grandma’s cracked pie just could be a metaphor of crack in a Philly Bell.

      See we can and do over complicate this search, and that’s because we are searching for the KEY.

      TT

      • The reason I misstated the bathtub at 32 ” was to play the Joker, trickster, the Coyote, like Fenn does sayin stuff like Alexander Hamilton was shot on the $100 bill when we all see Franklin when we get lucky enough to have a hundred. By the way that was Chapter 45 of Too Far. Half of 90, well sometimes ff is just hittin us over the head with 9. 90. and 22.

        TT

      • Thanks Tom, Olga & the chapters after MWFM are the most interesting to me. Years ago I made a trip to NM thinking that 90 mile thing and others put me in the little valley between Costilla Mt. and Ash Mts. I’d love to go backs but that’s for an able bodied searcher. The arrowhead blaze on S. Ash mountain seen on GE was not the most compelling reason.

  37. I remember when my mom would tell me to do my math work. No worse way to ruin a Saturday than home work. It always confused me though, I never did understand how to differentiate between the two. Then once, out of the blue, she said a comb without a bee is no place to find a bear. I was confused until the next morning when she placed a pancake on my plate, along side a honey shaped bear and an empty comb. No wonder my dad always treated her like a Queen. Then she said now got out there and mow the grass like I told you to yesterday. When I added it all up in my head I realized that maybe I should have done my vocabulary work before my math work. Today as I look back on that moment its as plain as a wax job on ancient stone, character counts. I apologize ahead for navigating backwards in time, I assure you my tone was in play, oddly enough.

    • Strawshadow, I love your story. “a comb without a bee is no place to find a bear”

      Now think about “from there is no place for the meek”

      I just love it.

      An Indian Scout and A Saint

    • Yes, nice story SL, but I believe Strawshadow is giving us more than mere reminiscences.

      You’re a tireless worker, Strawshadow!

        • Thanks, SL. Catchy tune. It’s now stuck in my head… Repeating, over and over and over again.
          LOL. Like some other words we know.

        • WiseOne,

          Isn’t that the truth, my friend?

          Looks as if it’s almost that Time again! Wood you like to have a Spot of Tea with me? Care to have one or two dabs of Honey?

          Life’s Good,

          SL

    • sorry i just like to share when i get out cant go by my self any more oh well this story reminds me of when i was young what i did wrong was tossing a few rocks at my grandmas bee hives she grabbed one of thos big wooden spoons and the chase was on dont think i ever ran so fast i never again messed with thos bee hives again live and learn. great story.

        • I know one thing for sure I was faster then the road runner on that venture and when i hit the door I heard her yell you got to come back some time iwas bare foot over those rocks and didnt feel a thing she was right tho she gave me a hug on my return I sure loved that woman Yep Pd I was born for the Chase just got to stay one step in front of the spoon have a great day all

  38. What if –

    The Chase is a hundred times more grandiose than anyone could have dreamed.

    There are perishable clues out there just waiting for a careless searcher to destroy.

    To find the chest you have to sometimes leave the woods and do things under the public eye and you have to choose between lying to kind strangers or telling the truth and risk giving the game away.

    Only one person gets one chance and if that person flubs it, then all is lost until someone stumbles across it a hundred years from now.

    The Chase is not equal opportunity. You have to strive to exhibit the attributes ff considers important and through the process of trial and failure you must learn to adapt and overcome.

    The Chase is physically and mentally taxing. I was once a soldier. I’ve done things you have only seen in movies. During this journey I’ve suffered several injuries and had what I can only describe as a full on mental breakdown. That’s never happened to me, not even on my worst day in the war, and it’s incredibly embarrassing, humbling, and hilarious all at the same time.

    Wouldn’t that make The Chase so much more exciting? Can you imagine just how much more intense a stroll through the woods becomes? Have you ever been under the kind of pressure this implies? Is there any proof out there that The Chase is not exactly how I’ve described?

    It took me three weeks to solve the poem and I walked to my area with a smirk on my face. The Chase then chewed me up, spit me back out, and said: “Now what are you going to do about that?” Then something happened that I can only describe as magic. Real, true, honest to god MAGIC.

    I licked my wounds for a week after that with nothing but a couple of cold beers and my misery as company until I realized that I’d only found the beginning.

    That was nearly a year ago and things have only become more intense since. I have made a thousand mistakes and I have limped along with my cane for over 200 miles and I think I’m getting close, but I’ve said that many times before.

    All I have to offer as proof is my word. I give you my word as a man, a soldier, and a fellow searcher that I believe I am telling you the truth. Not the whole truth, because I want the title for myself, but the truth nonetheless.

    • * * * * “So that everyone will know, and not just the searcher I replied to this morning, you don’t need to break anything to find the treasure. Please stay safe.” f (posted 7/7/2017) * * * *

        • I really believe that to perceive that the treasure is there you do not need to break anything, but if you want to have it in your hands you do have to break something. This is my opinion.RC

  39. Did fenn ever write a book about his time in nam? I want to hear more about him being shot down in laos . like why was he there? was he apart of the secret war there? I love to hear Vietnam stories.

    • Hi Steve,

      Have you read TTOTC or TFTW? Your questions will be answered if you read those books, watch the videos, read SB’s, etc..

  40. Wow. How intriguing. I have just gained a completely new and enlightening view of the poem. Sometimes things that are taken away actually add to our understanding. Thanks.

    • Hi Sparrow

      Can you tell me what you ade seeing with your refreshed eyes?

      Lugnutz

      • Oh—just had some posts I put up (and those replying to them) removed from the blog. I think it was due to my Laosy memory.

        • I wouldn’t look into what happened yesterday with the post being removed as being any type of clue .think they might of removed them because it wasn’t directly related to the Chase.Or someone did it to be funny.

  41. Dal – Anybody .
    What’s this recent talk about an Arrowhead ?
    Where did it come from ?

    • If Dal’s post was not clear, Just above “Recent Comments” there is :”Latest Post” – In this section – click on “Reading the Blaze – Part one and two” In these two solve is a reference to “Arrowheads” – Hope that this helps – JDA

  42. imo – I think that if youve been wise and found the blaze – I think what it says is – it would be wise to go north to the blaze

  43. it would be wise to go north to the blaze – and if you’ve been wise and found the blaze look quickly down your quest to cease imo

      • JC1117- it hasn’t been simple ive been on the chase close to 5 years – if I find it good if not ive had fun trying

      • Well…I’m back. No luck.

        I would have hit dead center…but the X on those windmills keeps moving around and around.

        Who designed those things, anyway? :/

        I’m just going to lay down here until my head stops spinning.

        You still have my beer?

      • well JC1117, i was innocently holding your beer whilst eagerly anticipating your return, but was surprised to learn that all of your beer had mysteriously disappeared (including that six-pack in ya cooler too 🙁 )

        i mean, it musta been ‘mass evaporation’ or something?

        anyhoos, gotta go – am suddenly busting for a wee
        🙂

        • Well…thanks for giving it the old college try, Curious Hobbit. :/

          All that evaporation was likely caused by global warming…and greenhouse gases. Sadly…I’ve contributed my fair share. No more bean burritos for me.

          I have an idea. Maybe we can use that giant, new, floating piece of ice from the Petermann Glacier to keep our beers cool.

          Just a thought.

  44. This Chase is like The Hotel California – you can check out any time you like, but you can never leave.

    • That’s funny. You can check out any time you like but you can never leave….so true.

    • Have a safe trip Brooke and enjoy the little things along your way…… good luck to you my friend, take lots of pics…. until next time… see ya

      • Hi focused and all
        Should have went after Fennboree but life’s been happening! Will let y’all know how it goes. Wishing for good news but prob be the same old news!! Nothing nada ya da…. however – will have fun this week searching!

  45. FYI-
    If you are 62 or over now is the time to purchase a lifetime pass to the National Parks..the cost is $10.
    That gets you, your vehicle and whoever is in your vehicle with you in for free…for the rest of your life…
    But it will cost 8 times that much on August 28th….$80

    Just to be clear…to get your vehicle into Yellowstone and Teton National Park will cost the average family $50 per vehicle…
    So these lifetime passes are a great deal…
    A much better deal before August 28th…
    https://www.nps.gov/planyourvisit/senior-pass-changes.htm

    • Yeah, I knew it was gonna change this year. Unfortunately the final date is about 3 months too soon for me.

      Even at $80 though it’s a must-buy for me.

      JAKe

      • Toby,
        They must have seen you coming and sold you a brand-X card.

        My card has no 1/2 price disclaimer and I’ve used it several times for full fare admission.

          • Toby,
            Thanks for the link. Perhaps you didn’t read it fully.

            “Who is admitted with a Senior Pass?
            The Senior Pass admits pass owner/s and passengers in a non-commercial vehicle at per-vehicle fee areas and pass owner + 3 adults, not to exceed 4 adults, where per-person fees are charged. (Children under 16 are always admitted free.)
            Note: Photo identification will be requested to verify pass ownership.”

            This is exactly what Dal said and what I can verify from actual use.

            Additionally:

            “The Senior Pass may provide a 50 percent discount on some amenity fees charged for facilities and services such as camping, swimming, boat launch, and specialized interpretive services.”

            Perhaps you were confused by the term ‘amenity” which is explained here….not the same thing as entry fee.

            If you buy one you’ll know how it works.

  46. Went alone in there today. Man the grass pollen did a number on my eyes today. Benadryl left on the kitchen counter was a bad idea. Pretty day. Had a blast! Where’s Jake?

  47. If Forrest Fenn went in alone and hid the TC
    and he is the only one that knows the location of the TC
    and if he has never been back there to check on the TC ;
    then how does he know for sure that the TC has NOT been found?

    • It is unlikely that it has been found just for the sake of having bragging rights. If those unique pieces would appear on the art market Fenn would know. Also Mr. Fenn has stated that he had included a check for 100,ooo dollars. but can’t remeber if he left that in the chest.

      • Arnold,
        Where did you hear about a check for a 100k in the box? And if he did, how will that help if the chest isn’t found for a hundred years? I think the checks have a certain “lifetime”. I’ve heard about “the check’s in the mail”, but this doesn’t sound right.
        I DO think there is something in the chest that will motivate the successful searcher to come forward.

        • * * * * “I DO think there is something in the chest that will motivate the successful searcher to come forward.” * * * *

          Hopefully not an exploding dye pack. 🙂

          (“Hey, look at you, you found my rainbow!”)

    • In addition Forrest has said that he wants his silver bracelet back from whomever fins the chest. one could speculate that once found there might be additional instructions inside the chest as what to do to legally take possession. Then again someone could have it next to their bed right now.

      • Have this weird feeling that that bracelet will have more to do towards the end. He cannot get his ashes there, family and all, but he sure could will that bracelet to the one who knows where it was found. I don’t doubt that the bracelet, if found when he is still around, won’t be back in the finders hands, to only be asked to return to the location. If that location was kept secret. Two can keep a secret……….

  48. went to buffalo bills grave yester day still cant spell but it was fun to see the past up close have a safe journey every one

  49. on his death bed his request was the view on look out mountain water high is a tough one there but lots of hidey spots possable i love history.

  50. Arnold: I totally agree. After following the clues that led me directly to Little Chasm Falls; five hours with a metal detector proved empty handed .
    But I had fun with my son-in-law.
    If Forrest Fenn went in alone and hid the TC
    and he is the only one that knows the location of TC
    and if he has never been back there to check on TC ;
    then how does he know for sure that the TC has NOT been found?
    Did it ever exist to be found???

  51. Forrest said he hid the TC in one afternoon; making two trips from his sedan.
    Let us say that he did it between 12:00 Noon and 4:00PM.
    And for all practical purposes he did not go to another state and sleep over before he hid the TC.
    Best guess scenario…
    He stayed in New Mexico
    Each trip with about 20 extra pounds for an 80 year old man to carry.
    From home to site 40 minutes About 16 miles city traffic
    One trip with the chest. 40 minutes 2 miles on foot down trail
    Back to his car. 40 minutes 2 miles on foot up trail
    One trip with the goods. 45 minutes 2 miles on foot down trail
    He is getting tired
    Back to his car. 50 minutes 2 miles up trail
    He had to stop and rest for a few.
    From site to home. 40 minutes 16 miles home
    255 minutes or 4 hours and 15 minutes.
    IMHO the TC is within 15 to 20 miles from Fenn’s home in Santa Fe, N. M. and no where else.

    • Hi John of Crossbow,
      Forrest’s comment about how long it took to place the chest encompassed only the parking spot and the resting place.
      Joseph of near Old Dime Box

    • A lot of people looking for the treasure are thinking maximum time, not minimum time for hiding the treasure.

      He did not say it took all afternoon. Maybe just 30 minute or less for each round trip? Who knows? Remember he said something to the effect ….. who ever finds the chest will be surprised when they do.

  52. I recently looked over my notes of my family’s first search, and it struck me.

    Most of it was a grand adventure, not treasure hunting….hiked an old indian trail, saw grizz family (from a distance), visited Yellowstone…….

    The research gave depth to our adventure. We would not have done this otherwise. Thank you Forrest.

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