Where Warm Waters Halt…Part Eight

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This page is now closed to new comments. To add to the discussion please go to the latest WWWH page.

This is for a discussion about Where Warm Waters Halt. We’ve all got ideas that didn’t work out or we are willing to share…I think we can give folks just starting out some ideas for the kinds of places that might just be the place Where Warm Waters Halt…or not!

Let the discussion begin…

dal…

618 thoughts on “Where Warm Waters Halt…Part Eight

    • Hey everyone, I am new to the Chase, but I have been following it for a little while. I live in Colorado and can’t wait to get searching and following this story. I look forward to seeing peoples suggestions and what they think. Perhaps what I enjoy most is getting out in the woods, I already enjoy fishing and hunting.

      Where warm waters halt? Being new to this and only from what I know thus far, I feel it is a specific place, as opposed to a geographical region. I think it means literally, where warm water meets cold. Perhaps a place he fished or visited with his family.

      • Welcome aboard, 3rdcoast_slope. Addressing your point about whether WWWH is a specific place as opposed to a general region, here’s a relevant link from the end of 2013 that you’re unlikely to be aware of since you’re relatively new:

        http://dalneitzel.com/2013/12/28/the-nine-clues-2/#comment-29511

        Dal writes, in part: “Forrest once told a searcher who suggested that the entire YNP could be the place where warm waters halt that he was wrong… That it was a specific place and not a region…” That said, this is secondhand information (though I still think it’s reliable). But we don’t have the wording and context of the question posed to Forrest by this searcher. I see nothing wrong with the hypothesis that Forrest’s warm waters are the entire YNP thermal area, but that WWWH is a specific spot. Certainly Dal and many others are running with that idea.

        • Zap,
          I’ve been at it for nearly two years but have definitely missed a couple of things including Dal’s 2013 reference. Anybody know if there is a direct quote out there in which Forrest says that WWWH is a specific place versus a general area?

      • Welcome to the chase.

        In the archives you’ll find similar ideas to ponder as your own.

        Being on CO you have an advantage the majority here doesn’t .

        • I agree with that. I will be hunting wild game national forest this fall and will be keeping an eye out for any clues i.e rivers, canyons, BLAZES ! lol
          I love what he has done with this and like that everyone is getting out. Just remember,as most know, these mountains are similar to the oceans, they are majestic and wonderful, but can become something different real quick. Respect the woods and return home to your family, and most importantly have fun!

  1. Keep it simple, the word “Halt” means what?
    FF didn’t say Where warm waters get chilly or cooler he said Halt.

    • A primitive root; to hop, that is, (figuratively) skip over (or spare); by implication to hesitate; also (literally) to limp, to dance: – halt, become lame, leap, pass over.

      😀

        • I keep thinking everyone is looking at the wrong end of the mountains. Sounds like Yellowstone to me. Start with “warm waters halt” and see how everything else falls into place.

  2. I don’t know if it’s actually physical. Where temperature. Is involved or if it is something like where the trout areas start on a stream. It could be metaphorical.

    • You could be right, however would this be considered to specialized of knowledge and outside of the realm of the poem and a map?

  3. Let’s say the Gibbon and Firehole Rivers confluence is not it. The Madison River is warm at this confluence but how far down the Madison River does the water temperature change from warm to cold? Hebgen Lake? Below Hebgen Lake where the Madison becomes a river again? “Warm Waters Halt is not a dam.”
    How many places are there like Ojo Caliente in the Rockies?
    Fenn takes us on a bit of tour in his book The Thrill of the Chase. Is he just playing with the Joker?

    • He didn’t say the time of year. Warm waters ( more than One?) In the Fall and Winter could indeed be the Madison and Gibbon at Madison Junction.

      • Good point Rich. The answer to “where warm waters halt” should not be season specific. This would seem to rule-out waters that would be cold in winter, such as ponds and lakes without a warm water supply. So, if “warm” refers to temperature, it points to hot springs, or to a place that remains frozen year round. Of course, as others have pointed out, “warm” could refer to other things (such as welcoming, relaxing, trout water designation, etc), and “warm waters” may not actually be referring to water at all. Still most likely in my opinion is hot springs, either where pools form or where the runoff enters cool waters.

    • I’m near the Madison now with BOTG….iffy connection but today we found where it isn’t

  4. Guess I’m in the straightforward/kiss camp and for me halt means stop, either temporarily or permanently. From a geological viewpoint, we all know of the many places within Yellowstone easily meeting this instance of halt. As someone previously said, Old Faithful is the obvious example for a temporary stop, but all the active geysers are too. Soda Butte Cone would be my example of a permanent halt. And I’m sure there are many many more such examples in the defined limits of the RM search area.

    But my focus for halt is related to artesian springs in a specific area with a lot of history.

    Having said all that, I am of the opinion we are all going to have a collective “duh” moment if we ever learn exactly what WWWH is.

    And regarding canyon down, IMO a great non-RM example is the Feather River Canyon in N. Cali not too far from Chico State, my alma mater.

    Pinatubocharlie

    • Yeah, me too on the kiss thingie.. but that is why i would like to ask everybodies opinions/thoughts. on something.. TO me, the ” Rocky Mnts, are the ranges
      (closed basins excepted), that form the western Continental Diviede, ie generally water flow into either the Pacific Colorado R, Snake, Columbia etc… or the Gulf of Mexico/Atlantic…. BUT, BUT,
      that would eliminate a lot of semi associated ranges as the Sangres, Front Range, Snowy,
      etc… SInce I am relatively new at this, what are the general thoughts.? thanks Jor

      • Hi joe,
        FF simplified it by putting a map in TFTW that highlights the search area. If you don’t have the book, just google images of Forrest Fenn’s map.

        • Thamks Kate, yup,,, probably going to buy the books, as am op. on droid only, and after a point,, definition gets real sorry.
          thanks again joe
          batpoop4470@gmail.com
          (i lost a bet, that explains email add)

  5. When the arguments begin!

    I hope ff is okay. He’s now ignoring 100% or my emails vs 99.9%.

    • Wouldn’t it be nice if the reason is because he’s somewhere casting out upon the waters?

  6. Blex and all,
    Thanks for the well wishes. I may just come back with a place where the treasure isn’t! Have to try, though. See ya next week.

      • Just returned from Montana. After a nice shower I discovered that the warm waters halted when I turned off the water.

        • Hi Bob.

          Now you’ve gone and done it….repeating what I’ve said years ago…..

          …but many still refuse to understand that this can be a viable solution….you just need to know where to start from.

          Think about it…..a shower is not only where warm waters halt….but also “comfortable”.

          Welcome to Difficulty-land….enjoy the company of many others….

        • glad to hear you’ve made a safe return, Bob

          ..but whatever ya do, don’t mention the ‘shower-thing’ to Tim, or we’ll never hear the end of it 🙂

          (whoops.. too late 🙁 )

          • *snickers*

            You know….rain is…..LOL…..

            Nah…Maybe some other time…..

            :o)
            Funny stuff curious….thanks for the smiles.

  7. Blex and all,
    Thanks for the well wishes. I may just come back with a place where the treasure isn’t! Have to try, though. See ya next week.

  8. Bob——

    Good luck on your search! Montana is beautiful!

    JC—
    Saw your post above—and have to ask “what does halt mean”? You sure it only means “stop”? I will post once again a question/answer from students to Forrest:

    Students: “Is there is specific reason that halt and walk are the only words that do not follow the rhyme scheme?”

    Forrest: “Yes, I was limited by my ability.”

    Interesting answer, don’t you think? Could it be a hint that “halt” is tied somehow to ability or disability? Are we defining halt correctly when we state it means to “stop”?

    Just a thought is all.

    • rhymes with “halt”:

      Pure Rhymes – 28 rhymes.
      End Rhymes – 7 rhymes.
      Near Rhymes – 1957 rhymes.
      Near End Rhymes – 840 rhymes.

      “walk”
      Pure Rhymes – 89 rhymes
      End Rhymes – 85 rhymes
      Near Rhymes – 2047 rhymes
      Near End Rhymes – 1112 rhymes

      wikirhymer.com

      • Thanks, Seeker. Spoon feeding what we should already know. The relationship between “halt” and “walk” is so central to the solve that ff insisted on bending the rules of – rhyme for a reason.

        • LMN,
          I have to wonder and ponder why the words seemingly mean the opposite. Not unlike many words in the poem… warm to cold, new to old, and other words. as well as why many word mean the same, gone leave, cease, end, cold etc.

          If folks have the desire to keep it simple and for whatever reason they ‘think’ stated that…
          I refer to those comments from fenn.”…difficult but not impossible.” And “…Are there any suggestions you would give in approaching the clues and solving them? ~Craig
          *~Craig, there is no substitute for thinking and planning and observing and looking at maps, unless it’s the desire to keep it simple.f ”

          I also think over the years folks twist fenn’s comment;
          “Some searchers overrate the complexity of the search. Knowing about head pressures, foot pounds, acre feet, bible verses, Latin, cubic inches, icons, fonts, charts, graphs, formulas, curved lines, magnetic variation, codes, depth meters, riddles, drones or ciphers, will not assist anyone to the treasure location, although those things have been offered as positive solutions. Excellent research materials are TTOTC, Google Earth, and/or a good map.f” 
          And “…the poem is straight forwards…”
          To mean understanding it all is easy.

          I’ll add this comment as well… because of word usages to mean one thing only by many… ” I looked up words and definition of words and changed them, went back and rebooted… It turned out exactly like I wanted…”

        • Hmmmm. fifteen years and one needs to bend the rules to make something rhyme? mmmmm. ok…sure.

          • Sparrow, are you saying the comment from fenn above is some how inaccurate?

            How about this one;
            Dear Mr. Fenn,
            The definitions of words seem to interest you. What dictionary, and year of dictionary, do you use for looking up words? ~ wordsmith
            Interesting that you would ask that Mr./Mz Wordsmith.
            I don’t use dictionaries anymore. I just type the word in Google for a faster response. It’s fun to make up words and play with different spellings. When someone calls me out after noticing the corruption of a word I use, I just smile, especially when I say something that in my mind is correct but in an academic sense it’s a horrible malfunction.
            For instance, emblazoned upon some of the bronze bells I’ve buried are the words, “Imagination is more important than knowlege.” If I had spelled that last word correctly it would not have had the profundity of meaning I wanted. To misspell the word emphasized my point that having knowledge is, in fact, not as important as being resourceful. Also, when I make a mistake through ignorance that ploy gives me a degree of deniability that I routinely need.
            Now I will test you Wordsmith. Write down the full definition of the word “several.” Then Google it and learn that many of us don’t fully understand some of the words we use every day.f
             

          • Students: “Is there is specific reason that halt and walk are the only words that do not follow the rhyme scheme?”

            Forrest: “Yes, I was limited by my ability.”

            Seeker—–I will just say this—-I think there is a lot more to the response Forrest gave the children than we see at first glance. Given 15 years (as he states is the amount of time he used to finalize the poem) I don’t believe Forrest was “limited” in any way. I think he is giving us a hint. This is just my opinion of course. Most believe halt = stop and that’s fine. Do carry on.

          • sparrow – f played a similar trick with one of the questions about the blaze.

            Is the Blaze one single object? ~ Scout Around
            In a word – Yes

            …one single… in a word (one word).

            I suspect that this one you are bringing up may have something a little more significant. I have found in his comments that he does indirectly reference other comments and possibly things in the poem.

            Much of it is probably his sense of humor and his playful, but calculating disposition.

          • A “trail that has been marked” is a single blaze.

            BUT….one could also call the trail markers a blaze, and they could be used to mark the trail one is supposed to take.

            Dual meaning IMO.

            Good luck.

          • Anon,

            Is a parking lot full of school buses full of children a single object?

            In a word – yes.

            (Isn’t the English language fun?)

          • Sparrow,

            As others have already noted over the years, rhyming, or in this case, near rhyming, is only a part of the architecture of the poem.

            I suspect that is why Mr. Fenn has been so emphatic about “not messing with the poem” all along.

            If you “mess with” the poem, you will “miss with” your solution to the puzzle.

            Of course, this is all my opinion,

            some where west of Toledo

        • Perhaps limited by his ability and the use of halt and walk just makes the most sense. Its a tough call though, like Copper River Reds vs Kenai River Sockeyes, the spread makes little cents in the long run.

      • Which of all those rhyming words rhyme with walk and still mean either end, stop, or pause?

          • Balk doesn’t mean to stop, pause or end.

            Balk isn’t a synonym of halt, end, stop, or pause. While that doesn’t exclude it as a possibility as there a various words in the poem that doesn’t synonym with the other, but taken all together, balk doesn’t have the same “precise meaning.

            It means hindrances as the best fit

          • The conventional wisdom is what brought on… Don’t mess with my poem…

            Some times it not only important to know fenn’s comments, but would be good to know why some comments were stated.

          • It does seem like if we know a word rhymes better with another word but he chose not to use it then it might or might not be useful information. I’m not saying mess with the poem but understanding why he might not use a word like balk cannot hurt I wouldn’t think.

          • Again, “block” would appear to rhyme with “walk”, and means to stop something, or cause it to pause or change direction. As in road “block” for example. With 15 years to work on it why choose “halt” to rhyme with walk? Just curious.

          • Walk or Halt do not have many words that rhyme with them and certainly nothing appropriate
            So it is probably just as he said.

          • “(of a pitcher) make an illegal motion, penalized by an advance of the base runners.”

            So you can make that definition fit into the poem then do tell.

            The closet would be when balk becomes a noun where a ridge left unplowed between furrows.
            But that doesn’t fit either.

            Now walk could be changed to the closest synonym by going with hike and still resemble almost the same meanimg but still end with a lack of rhyming possibilities.

        • I have sat on the side on this one, but have decided to put in my two cents worth.

          Does it make an iota of difference that “Walk”
          and “Halt” do not perfectly rhyme? I think not.

          Sure, picking a different word – Maybe “Salt” to rhyme with “Halt” would have worked better… Better for who? Better to what end?

          Forrest used the words that expressed EXACTLY what he was trying to get across.

          Our job is to figure out what “halt” and “walk” mean – not to spend countless hours discussing how we would have written the poem – not knowing what it is that Forrest was conveying.

          For my solve, “Halt” and “walk” work just fine. I never gave it a thought that they were “Near rhymes” – and neither should you. You are all wasting your time. SOLVE the poem “AS IS”.

          Just my humble opinion. JDA

          • To solve the poem you need to create your own, like a 13 yo Fenn did.
            In GA there’s a KFC that is known as the big chicken
            https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_Chicken
            If this is similar to begin WWWH then would begin where 13 herbs halt and take it in the road down. Would you know 13 herbs is talking about kfc?
            What if I add a line, put in below the home of fog horn (fog horn leghorn).

            The question becomes which came first. Think like a 13yo Fenn. A boy who saw with his eyes open but eyelids closed.

          • Hey Anon…..

            What is this you are saying….”think like Fenn”???

            Uh-oh….next thing you will be saying is that you are aggressively pursuing “remote viewing” like I am!!

            *smiles*

            Seriously……welcome to Difficulty-land!

            :o)

            If you start doing the things I am doing, you and I may just meet up at the ending spot at the same time!!

            hehehe

            Good luck!

          • *with the fog horn, would you know I’m talking about the chicken from the cartoon or a lighthouse?

          • JDA—

            So are you saying we should halt the conversation? And by halt do you mean completely stop the conversation, or to stop for a while then continue on? 🙂

          • Tom T.

            Anon;

            Sparrow – cute! I am just saying that it is my opinion that it makes little to no difference if the words rhyme or not – JDA

        • Tom T.

          Why would you think that this would be Forrest’s favorite song? Forrest
          has indicated that he is spiritual, but not religious. His church is in the mountains, not an edifice on main street. You seem to be projecting your own beliefs onto Forrest.

          “Services of Memoriam held at this spot”???? I see no mention of a service. I read about a man that stumbles upon a few grave markers. Forrest reads one in particular, and is touched by it – I see no “Service of Memorium”

          “28 words in toll (sic), for he was mourned by all the people” – The opposite is what Forrest was saying, here, in this lovely place, the grave markers covered over by tall grasses, those that were buried here have long been forgotten.

          Sorry, I just do not get your “projections” – JDA

          • Hi JDA.

            Uh-oh…you mentioned that Forrest is “spiritual”.

            You sure you want to be associated to me and my thinking?

            LOL

            *high fives*

            I applaud you for reiterating this.

          • I’d like to comment on the statement about Mr. Fenn being spiritual. As I read the poem there are many reference to religion. Mr. Fenn named the chest, Indulgence. One of the definition is, a offering for forgiveness of ones sin. Also, the ” go in peace” a religious term & also a baptism term. Most people as they age question what’s out there after life, even if you’re religious or not, we all wonder. I don’t believe Mr. Fenn is any different. I believe he would want to cover all his bases, just in case. There are a few more references but you can look up the definitions and see for yourself.
            -B

        • Tom T.

          I wrote something saying that I felt that you were projecting your own beliefs on Forrest. Because you may have taken it as an assault on your beliefs, I did not post it, but still feel that you are projecting – JDA

    • I believe FF once said that a child could find the treasure by reading the poem.
      What would “halt” mean to a child?

      • Hi JC….first you must define what age a child should be, in order to comprehend any of the words or the meanings.

        Asking a four-year old the meaning….and if a smart kid…..the answer would be “stop”…..that is if they even knew the word
        halt”.

        I think FF’s “child” is at least going to be 10 years old….maybe even older.

      • This is something attributed to Fenn which has been taken out of context, just as contiguous has been. His book illustrates what he meant.

    • Professor:
      To my children I yell “Stop! Go have a time out.” To my son stop=time out=detainment.

        • Walk or Halt do not have many words that rhyme with them and certainly nothing appropriate
          So it is probably just as he said. I think of stop as being permanent, where as halt as being temporary.

      • Well Pdenver & Sparrow….lf a weak & tired Fenn gave us a lame excuse as a hint, we now know WW are not vigorous, aggressive waters… like a confluence usually is. Will he nod if we’re getting warm? Or throw us a crutch? I’ll take silence as affirmation.

  9. WWWH could be only 1/2 or less of the clue. If it is a hot spring or geothermal feature more information is needed to lead the searcher to the right one.

  10. Subscribe….thanks Dal.

    You wrote in the previous installment:
    “Tim-
    You say “one of which FF active digs (in his pueblo)”.

    In fact, Forrest sold the ranch containing the San Lazaro Pueblo a couple of years ago. He no longer actively digs there.”

    I did not know this…..but still, I’m not seeing how he could just eliminate this level of thinking from the poem, especially when he was actively digging at the pueblo, when he either constructed the poem or when it was published.

    I’m not quite sure on the date he did acquire it, so you would definitely know more about this than I….but I came across this detail….

    “The site is Number 113 on the State Register of Historic Places, and was placed on the National Register of Historic Places in 1996. The eastern, historic portion of the pueblo is owned by the BLM, the remainder is in private hands.”
    http://galisteo.nmarchaeology.org/sites/pubelo-san-lazaro.html

    Interestingly enough, some of it is on BLM land……hmmmm…..

    I never knew that information. I may have to reinvestigate the area.

    Cheers and thanks for the info.

  11. The biggest observation I see all over about these discussions is that they are like soap operas, you can step away for months and come back to it and be caught up in a few days.
    It seems detailed blogs is needed like:
    WWWH separated into:
    Hot springs
    River converges
    Lakes
    Nothing to do with water
    And so on.
    It just seems same thoughts are just being packaged to another person.

    • Good point, Anon. Then again, I don’t think the right thought is to obsessively conjure up which category the correct wwwh will be. I’m believing that entirely misses the boat completely. Like a few mention, something else in the poem (and possible the few hints in ttotc) are what lead one to the correct wwwh. It’s putting the cart before the horse to talk about if a hot spring is warm or hot. IMO

      • I’d just like to refer you to the recent reply to the first post on this thread… Is why

        I’m thinking get more than the new searcher guess, get into the why’s like why is it warm for that particular group vs vague.

      • Your thoughts strike a chord with me in some regards. After about 2 years as an avid Searcher, I have nearly given up on how to interpret in what category or semantic interpretation the correct wwwh falls based only on the poem. I have come to the conclusion that some other hints may be deliberately implanted in the poem or ttotc to lead to a correct location for this important clue.
        IMO

  12. Question for searchers in fennland. Is it realistic that based on 166 words that a person could find a 10 inch by 10 inch by 5 inch tall box in the rocky mountains that span from NM into Canada? Same question for finding wwwh. Is this why imagination is key?

    • Twingem. In my opinion, yes it is realistic. It really comes down to finding the starting point (I.e., where warm waters halt). That is the major problem to solve. Once you’ve got the right starting place, the search for the treasure chest becomes manageable, and Fenn has stated that at least a few people have determined the correct starting place (although they have as yet not found the treasure as far as we know).

    • Is it possible, yes.
      Is it realistic, not really., unless you are familiar with certain things and have time to see if your location works.
      Think of giving directions to your house with just landmarks. Then when you have several landmarks see if you can obscure them but still represents it.
      Take the phrase “hint of riches new and old”
      There is several things you can do with this line with just the information in the poem.
      Accumulate those items, then see what they may say to you, and see if it leads you to a new place.

      • i love what a good day can make a good cup of coffee and some good words put together for a good time to make my day ty

        • I know right! I mean everyone is going on about halt and completely missing hint. Like how there is not actually hints of riches new or old is in the poem.

          • Because they are in the charts, porica your fenn forrest said the indecision is the key to flexibility, your questions your subtle comments help to discover the real treasure site, as well as indonesian jones the movie the ets head cavares, however in the movie appear Some rocky mountains similar in Santa Fe, as well as that mound above 7 thousand feet of sea level that the air is rare and dry and requires tourism, but has to carry water and hat and eat well, because the heat is very strong and they do People getting upset and having a headache

    • Twingem…. in a word “yes”…….just messing with ya…. see ya my friend…

    • Twingem;

      I think that Forrest has answered your question: ““I said in my book that the solution will be difficult but not impossible. If it was easy anyone could do it. Whoever finds the treasure will mostly earn it with their imagination. I have done only a few things in my life that were truly planned. Hiding the treasure chest is one of them.
      And at the end, the one who finds the gold will not feel lucky, but instead, will ask himself, “What took me so long?”f

      Same answer for wwwh – Difficult, but not impossible. JDA

      • Forest knows where he is going, we don’t.
        His comment is no different than someone doing a picture find with someone who drew it. It’s easy for the drawer, not the finder. But once you see it you can’t unsee it

      • 23kachinas;

        Twingen said, ” Is it realistic that based on 166 words that a PERSON could find a 10 inch by 10 inch by 5 inch tall box in the rocky mountains that span from NM into Canada?” How many definitions are there for PERSON? How would you have worded the question, and not used PERSON? Seems like the
        Clinton “IT” question. Depends on what your definition of IT is. Seems to me that you are nitpickin’
        JDA

        • All, I asked because I personally cannot fathom it. Coordinates must be within the poem. Otherwise, it would be dumb luck, or a stumble upon it find.

          I have found coordinates. I have not found the treasure. Just wondering who else believes that the precises location within 14.1 feet is all in the. poem? Otherwise, I should take up canasta! There are a few coordinates I have found.

          • Twingem;

            I wouldn’t know a coordinate if it walked up to me and slapped me in the face.

            You and Charlie and a few others MAY be right, but I just do not see Forrest using coordinates. JMO JDA

          • Twingem,
            While I am not 100% sold on the coordinates portion personally, I am aware it is certainly a possibility, FF was a decorated pilot and certainly would understand how to use coordinates. What I do agree with you totally on, again, my personal opinion and not fact, is that there is an answer somewhere in that poem, otherwise it is as you stated “dumb luck” and nothing more than a guessing game to hope you stumble across the right answer. Coordinates, steganography, cipher text, etc… I couldn’t discount any of them and there are many on this site that have valid findings for each mentioned. No one is an authority and no one truly can claim they are right until they are holding the chest in their hands. This is also much more fun and creative than canasta! lol

          • I agree completely. He’s a pilot. He’s going to give a location in GPS coordinates. I made one trip that was a fail based on a set of coordinates derived from the poem. But I’m so convinced that has to be the answer.

    • Yes it is possible friend, example: there are 4 cards and 1 joker
      The 4 cards have subtle words and light tips expressed, just the wise hunter uses them, means flexibility
      The joker is the poem, you do not know the direction or direction, example can take you to a good place or a bad place, it means indecision.
      Who makes script or route is the hunter, just as in the movies I know with a difference the script and director is forrest fenns and the artists you are hunters, but in the end only 1 of you can fulfill all the lines until the end of the line that crosses, X.

    • Mama—
      I have explored that before. Glad to see you bring that up— it is a very different approach. 🙂

  13. twingem- you are very close. Your question -how do you know that you have the correct wwwh? You find the word that is key, and that word confirms the fact that you do indeed have the correct wwwh.
    What word could be more important that that. Nobody seems to listen, but when I first posted this (2013) f said they hear the blogs, or some such, but don’t listen to the words that are whispered. I don’t care, believe what you will.

  14. I’m someone who’s 10 day’s into this, I heard about the recent death of someone searching for Mr. Fenn’s hidden treasure, and it grabbed my interest , and I will never be able to go and search. I have dissected his poem, 13 pages of notes, I believe the key is the ” home of Brown” and I believe its not a reference to and rivers, hot springs, ranches, falls, fish or any figure in New Mexico, need to think out of the box to solve this, I believe its a reference to someone who worked in and for the military, I know his ” home” is at 5,509′ and is north of Santa Fe New Mexico. Any thought’s!

    • Welcome to the Chase, buz! You have plenty of company in people who think dissecting the “home of Brown” is the best way to gain a foothold in solving the poem. There is a dedicated thread on this blog for discussing that here with all sorts of suggested people who may be the “Brown” of the poem:
      http://dalneitzel.com/2017/04/02/home-of-brown-3/

      In my opinion, starting a solve by trying to figure out the home of Brown first is folly per this quote from Forrest: “All you have to do is think about the nine clues and follow them in order.”

      Have fun obsessively thinking about this too much like the rest of us!

      • Thanks for the welcome Blex!
        Thanks for the link as well and the nudge to start at the beginning. So here’s what I’m thinking, 1stly Mr. Fenn has stated that no man made structure is nearby, so no dam etc. “Begin it” I believe means, once a searcher has established a search site that has a connection to where “warm water’s halt, away you go. So to choosing a site with a hot springs may be to obvious, my thought would be to look for a shallow creek or stream, the water temp. could be warmer than a deeper source of water. “Where warm water halts” to me indicates that the source disappears someway, either flows into a bigger colder source of water or possibly, simply disappears into the ground or ” discontinues” as described in the Webster dict. The dry Cimarron river is a good example I think, but likely to obvious or easy. Mr. Fenn has stated that the treasure is in an area that he has visited earlier in life and is fond of, that implies to me that “Begin it” is in an area that is scenic , likely treed and a enjoyable, refreshing area, Mr. Fenn has stated his primary reason for hiding the treasure, is to get people outdoors into the sunshine and smell the pine needles ( Expedition Unknown) I believe its something to keep in mind before one commences a search of a potential site. Now I’m not an English expert, is there some significance to why “halt” and “walk” don’t rhyme like everything else, there and where, down and Brown, meek and creek, nigh and high, blaze and gaze, cease and peace, go and know, good and wood and cold and gold, could Mr. Fenn have written where warm waters spike and rhyme that with too far to hike. Ah the Thrill of the chase, so am I off base?

        • Hi, Buz. I don’t see anything wrong with the direction you are thinking. A lot of people on this blog seem to also be puzzling over the rhyming disconnect lately between halt and walk. I’m not sure if there’s any significance to it, but who knows?

          One small correction: I can’t find anything where Forrest said that the treasure is not hidden near a man-made structure. He has said that the treasure is “not associated with a structure” and is “not hidden in or about a structure”. The John Burnett NPR story mentions that it is not “near a structure”, but he could have been paraphrasing one of Forrest’s above quotes in a manner that may not be accurate. See for yourself by going to tarryscant.com and doing a search for “structure”. The way I see it, the treasure would certainly not be hidden under, for example say a shed, but if there happens to be one nearby to a search area, I wouldn’t sweat it as a deal-breaker.

          However, Forrest has said that a human trail is not in close proximity to the treasure and most man-made structures have at least a trail leading to them, so that’s a strong hint, IMO.

          • Thanks for that Blex, gotta agree, what I read was likely a generalization with no factual backup, and its just something that can happen, created by excitement of the chase!

    • I also think it has to do with military, but my home of Brown does not reference military

      • If Brown is a name of a person, I found a person with that name and it could be connected to Mr. Fenn’s work in a way for sure, I kinda stumbled on it looking for a different angle on “Brown” but I guess I will have to wait for the discussion about ” Put it in below the home of Brown”

        • Hey buz….you wrote….

          “and it could be connected to Mr. Fenn’s work in a way for sure”

          Care to elaborate?

          • My bad….let me re-phrase that….

            “Care to elaborate more”…..but within the “Home of Brown” blog arena?

            :o)

          • Ummmm, Hi Tim, okay hear iam in Whistler B.C., I am like 12 days into this thing, a rookie for sure, I have done as Mr. Fenn’s has advised, “if you want to be a serious searcher you need to look at the clues in the poem”, (Expedition Unknown)I have compiled 13 pages of notes, if I don’t write my thoughts down I don’t sleep, I even think I know how Mr. Fenn can say ” people have been within 200 feet, but they don’t know who they are” (Expedition Unknown) and how he can confidently say the treasure has not been found, I think there is a note in the chest, on it is a phrase or word that only Mr. Fenn knows and either call or email so he can announce the treasure has been found, not going to tell you about the 200 foot thing it would help to narrow down search sites. So with this whole thing I am going in for spinal surgery and my plan was to do all this during my recovery time plus as it is I am not allowed to enter the States (bad boy 30 years ago and never bothered to get a pardon) for me it is the trill of solving this (oh a claim to fame, I found Pierre Eliot Trudeau’s life time ski pin that had been lost for 14 years, our current Prime Ministers father) . So as it is I am a total dumb ass when it comes to using a computer, and I really stumbled on to this tidbit of info, I wasn’t looking for it, and it excited me so much I got on this blog thingy, something I’ve never done, ha like I said dumb ass, I entered twice I was told. Hence my 1st entry was what you are asking about, I have relative’s up from Boulder Col. Sister in-law, Husband and most importantly 12 year old son and 15 year old daughter, I showed them my notes and thoughts, lastly the tidbit that I found, their jaws dropped, I now have a search team and Tim, they told me to keep my mouth shut, its that friggin good. I won’t actually find the treasure of coarse I truly believe my son in-law will, other family was in on the conversation and they to say not to say anymore and this is the 1st time they have heard of it. Tell you what we believe it so much that they will go with my plan after finding it and that is to display the treasure so all the searchers can go and see what they didn’t find and then create a poem (sister in-law is an English major) then continue Mr. Fenn’s Legacy an re hide it, they all thought that is a “cool thing to do”, I wonder if there is any other searchers that have thought about that, they agree the reward is finding it and re hiding it would enhance that, so should my nephew find it and I think Mr. Fenn has said something about a young person finding it, I will tell you and everyone else what is was that I stumbled on I mean like I said I wasn’t actually looking for it and it is jaw dropping and I can see how nobody has found it, yup it could well be rookie searcher adrenaline coursing through my veins, of all the Brown crap I checked and it is exactly that, I truly believe I have narrowed down the search area, okay one tidbit, I likely would get some heat for saying this but whatever, it even works with Mr. Fenn giving an excuse to his wife and she wouldn’t give a second thought about him being away from home even an overnight away as he likely used this as an excuse before, she would never know at all. Ah the Thrill of the chase. p.s. when this blog thing gets to, Put it in below the home of Brown, I am going to give it a miss! sorry Tim but hey if it doesn’t pan out I will let you know what it was and even then you will think its good!

          • Good deal buz…and of course good luck to you amd your team.

            I am one to firmly believe a team will find the trove.

            You do seem enthusiastic…..so remember…..it is difficult, not impossible, thus it is solvable.

            Make sure everyone is prepared….and keep safety as the top priority.

            BTW – I also have a couple of clues tucked away for secrecy, that also have never been discussed.

            Have you checked other blogs on the hoD to be sure yours wasn’t?

            Cheers!

          • Thanks Tim for your understanding, and advice, I agree safety is paramount, (safety rep. for 25yr.s) also we will keep working other angles so that any disappointment will be handled. Absolute great advice to look at other blog things, just to see if there are any others with the same hoB tidbit. All the luck to you! Gotta love this Thrill of the chase!

      • Mama—
        Thanks for that. After giving this a lot of thought I have come to the following conclusions:

        Where warm water halt: a disposable diaper.
        Home of Brown: a UPS hub in the Rockies.
        No place for the meek: a place full of owls. If you were “meek as a mouse” you would avoid the area.
        The end is ever drawing nigh: you are walking in a circle.
        There’ll be no paddle up your Creek: a reference to an oar.
        Just heavy loads and water high: backpacking in a cloudy area.

        I have more but I’m tired of typing right now. lol

        • No wonder you haven’t found it. Chances are you are going about your core to the right, try going left and you should marvel at what you see

  15. I love some of the ideas that I read here. So often I think I cannot find any other meaning to things and voila! Somebody comes up with another twist that never even crossed my mind. Remember Forrest said ‘warm’ waters. I thought about his example when he was asked about too far to walk. ..He said something to the effect of what is far.. to an ant a mud puddle can be huge. What is warm? Warm to who? Here in Montana a warm day in winter can be 40 degrees. 40 degrees in California in winter might be frigid. It is all perspective. I agree with Twingem in that the clues are in the poem. It helps to know the author but Forrest has always said to go back to the poem. I actually felt that the headwaters of the Madison (conversion of Firehole and Gibbon) could have been it…and if you follow the Madison down you can find a canyon. I parked at what is known as 7 mile bridge just a few miles down from Madison campground. I knew fires in 1988 had scorched that area (my guess for the blaze). Oh yes… LOTS of blazes. My daughter and I checked out about 100 of them. I had a stick (no digging in the Park) but I don’t think they can have an issue with poking a stick under logs as long as I don’t disturb things. I felt the treasure just had to be in a tree trunk somewhere (in the wood) so I would tap on burned logs to see if they were hollow. We found a great 7 foot tall burned stump that was perfect. We had to get up top (look quickly down) and I was going to hoist my daughter up to look. I saw a small hole in one side of the trunk and put my stick in there and tapped around. Something hissed and made it very clear that stump was occupied. We decided to move on to other trees…. Maybe that one really was the blaze . Just adding this in case people are considering this spot..it is also very close or exactly where Forrest’s dad is standing on pg 122 of TTOTC under Mt Haynes….

  16. What if…
    We are all looking for a place involving warm water halting, physically, and in reality, F uses that as a road direction or number for a road that goes into the canyon.
    What if…it’s not WATER at all? Hum…

    • Hi Donna…no one believes me when I say what you have…what makes you think you will change their mind?

      BIWWWH = “edge of civilization”.

      If you have a specific, I’m all ears…..*smiles*……

      Good luck to you.

  17. Hey to all from Belgum (Europe),

    Trying to solve the riddle, and, as since a couple of days ago an article was published in a local newspaper, i’d like to share my thoughts, hoping someone will agree and take a look at/around the place which is the outcome from my conclusion. As i’m not an ‘expert’ on English language, maybe my childish way to look at the poem, my shallow interpretation, my deficient knowledge of facts and Amarican History, my “keep it simple and stupid” way of reading it, it turns out to be a positive thing. LOL
    Yeah right, duuuh, wishful thinking. Anyway, here i go.

    I have tried to imagine that i myself want to hide a treasure in a box of such weight and size with a huge value, in a public place. First of all i would be very scared someone would catch me in the act of getting the treasure there and hiding it in the way i wanted to, before i could release a 15-years well thought poem hinting anyone (from (new) young to old, and rich or poor) about a treasure.

    Therefor, the first four sentences

    (As I have gone alone in there
    And with my treasures bold,
    I can keep my secret where,
    And hint of riches new and old.)

    means to me:
    – I did it alone, no help
    – Anyone could have seen me or my treasure
    – I succeeded hiding it safely, my secret place now
    – Next step to publish the start lots of hints for a thrilling search for anyone whom would be attracted doing so.

    Then, next 4 sentences, for which i only found one spot where all clues/details apply

    (Begin it where warm waters halt
    And take it in the canyon down,
    Not far, but too far to walk.
    Put in below the home of Brown.)

    We’re at the border of Yellow Stone Park, where at Mammoth we can find the enormous area Hot Springs, where a nearby river imaginably comes to boil due to the effects of the Hot Spring: the boiling river! This hot boiling river becomes one with the Yellowstone River at Gardiner. There the warm water halts cause it will be cooled down by a huge amount streaming cold water. Here we start the car, cause our fysics cannot support a walk of proxi 10 miles, which when we were young wouldn’t have been any problem at all. So why after about 10 miles? Because that’s where at Coring Spring (also the last spring, right after Le Duke Spring) we find a put-in, which is below the next put-in: a put-in at the home of Brown, near the Brown Creek, Brown trail, which can all be found a couple of miles further ahead into the canyon. FF talks about a put-in below the home of Brown. The first below is the one at Coring Spring. It’s also the put-in below (below = now seen from another point of view) the home of H.F. Brown yet to be found at Aldrigde (see my explanation further at the bottom – -> “oh yeah before i post”).

    Now we’re next to Cinnabar Mountain, not far from a Summit Lighthouse (restaurant), near a bridge to get to Cinnabar Mnt., nearby a put-in, a slip ‘n slide (Devils Slide….SPOOKYYYY!!), and a fishing point acces (though it’s for Basset Creek, the wrong side of our search place).

    To continue:

    (From there it’s no place for the meek,
    The end is ever drawing nigh;
    There’ll be no paddle up your creek,
    Just heavy loads and water high.)

    Joseph Meek! Look up the legend yourself, though obviously well known for most of you readers. It’s where things went wrong for mr. Meek, all situated on the left side (area Cinnabar Mnt.). So, it’s no place for the meek. Behind the Cinnabar Mnt. we find at Aldrigde, Aldrigde cemetery. SPOOKYYYY! Aldrigde is know for being a ghost town ‘(SPOOKYYYY!) surrounded by some little ghost places, e.g. Electric (SPOOKYYYY!). Again, no place for the meek. To get there from the base of Cinnabar Mnt. you’ll have to clime, at least some point. It’s not far but will take you at least an hour. Around Cinnabar we have a path (and partly road) we can follow which is circular. Like a dome, taking it left (anti-clock wise, nigh) it’s ever drawing nigh, though the destination area Aldrigde lake and cemetery will come to an end soon. You can’t get behind Cinnabar peddling up any creek and thus carrying anything will soon feel like a heavy load. We will aslo find some big rock’s in that area and during our climb.

    All this can be found using wikipedia, Google search, Google Earth (I used 3D) and with the online Natural Atlas (free for anyone), which supplies great maps! Beau-ti-ful! Check it out.
    https://naturalatlas.com/map/@45.104667,-110.803127,14z

    Looking at the area on the Natural Atlas from above (link above), Cinnabar Mountain looks like an owl (at least a bird). Mentioning this cause i read somewhere that there was given a hint bij FF (in his book? An interview?) about an owl. Not certain, could be gossip.

    Next…

    (If you’ve been wise and found the blaze,
    Look quickly down, your quest to cease,
    But tarry scant with marvel gaze,
    Just take the chest and go in peace.)

    …about the blaze. Maybe it’s a place at Cinnabar M where you get to see the Summit Lighthouse, maybe it’s where you can see the top of the Church Universal & Triumphant (at the base of Devils Slide, in front of Le Dike Hot Spring)… I fear the blaze can only be found while being there. Being wise, thinking, looking, observing details, searching, etc. But when you find it, halt immediately, look down, take away the tarry and marvel…and take the chest! Finally you can cease, relax and be in peace with your mind and whole body, for the search has almost been killing.

    From the rest of the poem my interpretation is that it can be cold up there. Maybe it’s the water from Lake Aldrigde, maybe the meek get cold cause of the spookyness of the ghost town or cemetary, maybe it’s the wind, maybe the chest will reveal itself in (early) spring when snow is melting… The brave and in the wood suggests that we need to be daring. Maybe trying to be immuun for nasty thoughts about wild bears? Zombies from the cemetary or ghost town (if you’re meek)?

    Forrest Fenn is getting old and tired, wants to enjoy his last (many) years, leaving his own personal trail by providing a treasure hunt.

    If i had the money to travel, the time and ambition to find that treasure, Cinnabar Mountain, Aldrigde Lake, Aldrigde town, Aldrigde cemetary, Electric Peak, Devils Slide, and it’s direct area, would be my big X-spot!

    I bet lots of readers will find arguments to refute above. The chances i’m right are of course very slim. But then again, i’ve not been able to find any other place/area which explains so many words, clues, details from FF’s poem, books, interviews, etc.

    Oh yeah, before i post:
    Aldrigde has a history of coal and coke and belonged at some point to a mister H. F. Brown ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aldridge,_Montana ).

    I bet at Aldrigde there still can be found a (ruined) house of a mister Brown. For that matter i wouldn’t be surprised if there also can be found a grave. Not that the treasure is in a grave or mine for that matter, but as i mentioned it’s all about the blaze (considering my vision is correct). Just looking for blazes in advance.

    Everybody whom is searching: good luck and be sure to somehow (anonymously) let the world know the chest has been found.

    Best regards!
    David MG
    An intrigued wannabee Sherlock ;-))

    • Nice write up, thanks for sharing. It seems like a plausible solution although having some specialized historic information. F said you just need a poem and a map. He knew people would use other tools though. Do you think that given the widespread use of the internet for information that other tools for use is just assumed? You do not need specialized knowledge to search Google, but you can gain specialized knowledge from it.

      • Hey there, just finished looking (for the first time, really!) at the video of the 5 first clues given on YouTube by Toby Younis. Man was i close to his “solution”. Cause that area was my first solution, yet on the other side, the side of the Brown creek, Brown Trail and Home of Brown, near the put in by Yankee Jim. I was looking at the other side, at DOME MOUNTAIN (ever drawing nigh, waters high). But for me not spooky enough, looks like a very nice place for the meek, and Joseph Meek never got there. On the other side we find Sphinx Mountain which is a bit more spooky…at least for the meek. hahaha

        Anyways, if i were to go searching teh chest, i would defenately be in the area from Aldrigde to Dome mountain. And i would probably get lost for ten years and eventually been eaten by bears.

        If a child can solve the riddle, you have to start at Mammoth –> Gardiners –> Put in below the home of Brown

        ;-))

    • Terrific thoughts, David MG. Possibly not known in Belgium is that Summit Lighthouse and Lighthouse Restaurant are two completely different places. Summit Lighthouse could possibly qualify for your SPOOOOOKY moniker and, if ‘warm waters halt’ = ‘suspend reality’, it might be the place to start a search. Lighthouse Restaurant, on the other hand, is a great place to grab a bison burger, homemade carrot cake and a cup of dam fine coffee. The little girl from India would’ve probably confused the two, too.

      • LOL
        That burger, the cake and darn good coffe sounds fab, but i almost bought a ticket to meet the little girl from India…

    • Dave, there is an epic sunset to be seen at Cinnibar. And there are a bunch of dozers working away in a yard below it. “If you find the treasure many of your worries will doze off into the sunset.”

    • Enjoyed what you had to say, David MG. While looking at photos of Devil’s Slide, I could imagine the story told of Mr. Fenn’s escape out the classroom window and getting his bottom rusty from the slide.

    • David MG!
      Good stuff, I think J. Meek might be to obvious and in the poem ” meek ” would have been capitalised like” Brown” is, ” blaze” websters dict. a trail marker esp: one made on a tree.

    • And we complaimed we drove 600 plus miles. YIKES thank you fro you input.
      Very nicely written & well thought out.

    • Most don’t give their entire solve either because they believe it’s where the chest is or not hold others hands. Keep in mind, Toby could have added more, but then it would have been easier just to drive people to the exact spot than have them think for themselves.
      So there is a few thought process as to why more in-depth detail isn’t given.

      I am curious as I have a thought a few months ago. How did the poem appear in the newspaper in Belgium? Was it in English or Belgium?

      • Hey Anon,

        There was no poem. There was this article about a treasure, which intrigued a lot and triggered lots to look it up. In fact we had to look up everything, and spending last couple of days on this blog i found that there are many different topics, details etc.
        Of course the it was in dutch but no poem. Here is the article that intrigued me:

        http://www.hln.be/hln/nl/960/Buitenland/article/detail/3198769/2017/07/03/Miljonair-verstopt-fabelachtige-schat-in-Rocky-Mountains-Maar-er-lijkt-een-vloek-op-te-rusten.dhtml

        I’m not goin to defend myself anymore. I did it without reading anyone hinting in anyway about Mammoth, Gardiner, Cinnabar and Dome/Sphinx Mountain area. I can describe step by step how i continued after reading the article, where and how i found anything that made my conclusion, as posted earlier. But i was thrilled to find a place/area which answered almost all my questions. And when i got to this blog on the first page reading nothing about ‘my are’, i thought i give my solution. As i have no ambition nor time nor the funds to fly to Montana. So, i don’t care. For me it’s all about being the one to say: i told you so. I was right!

        But i also realise now that it all will probably be tunnel vision and projection. I mean, what are the chances?

        Anyways, to get insulted for all of this is not correct.
        Period.

        Thanks for your possible interpretation of wood meaning experienced. Ispite others, i do see the connection while (though translated to dutch) it’s sort of expression here: ‘are you brave enough AND experienced enough to…?’

        And i read that to get to the area of Aldrigde you have to sign a form requesting permission or something? Well, maybe it also applies to that: tresspassing! Naughty FF did something he wasn’t suppose to do?

        • David, Thanks for the info. Was hoping it was, oh well.

          Don’t worry about who was first and that location is unusually the 1st one most see. Similar solutions were given way before his too, so another solver can make the same claim as he did.
          I just wanted to direct you to him as he does make good videos and easy to follow. There’s a lot that can into it. But that location is like the magicians distraction, it’s what Fenn does, the best lie is when you tell the truth. Every solver falls for it because it seems to fit and matches perfectly. But then you realize nearly every place you throw a dart at onthe Rocky Mountain map matches it too.
          Viewing similar claims can help confirm your reasoning, see something else you didnt see, but also lead to confirmation bias too. Be careful of the last one there.

  18. Not knowing how to adjust my text, i’d like to add by reply that the Aldrigde Lake obviously is “water high”.
    The owl is also circular (Cinnabar is like a stand alone mountain. Does that make sense? hahaha), connected, ever drawing nigh.

  19. David if you want to access the area around the Aldridge Cemetery you are supposed to sign a liability form to cross through the Royal Teton Ranch property. Carry a good camera if you go and post pictures.

      • Hey, if anyone would buy me a two way ticket to Montana off nearby, all included, I would nicely put a gun against my boss’is head to convince him in peace to let me go find two million bucks. Hahaha I’m not afraid of bears, a true survivor (here i watched all episodes of Bear Grill LOL) and dare devil.

        No, I have no intentions or ambition or possibilities at this particular moment to go and find the chest.
        Thanks

        O, I just came up with an interpretation for “brave and in the wood”.
        FF writes wood not woods. It’s would like for example a pile of wood, trees that fell or have been cut. Woods is like a forest. Wood is another thing. So maybe the blaze is a pile of wood or wood scattered around, and somewhere below the wood, under tarry and gravel or coal, the chest can be found?
        Just an idea.

        Again, good luck and I will be following all I can. Only to hope to read I was on the right end! LOL

        • wood – websters dict. a dense growth of trees usu. larger than a grove and smaller than a forest.

          • Some ideas;
            1) “In the wood” = In a forest
            2) ITW = A grove of trees
            3) ITW = Wood is singular, so one must look for a special SINGLE tree.
            4) ITW = “Wood” frequently refers to sawn and dried timbers or boards, so this could indicate that the tree is dead, dried out or fire damaged…
            5) And, ITW = If I open and look IN the wood lined Treasure Chest.

            Lots to think about. JDA

          • HAD, it’s in the chapter about his war experience.
            For the exact quote with page you’ll need to wait till I get home. But if you have the book you can read it quicker.
            It’s given during a preplanning briefing, I believe there is a pic on that page and it’s right under it.
            The phrase is “in the soil” which is the same phrase as “in the wood”.
            You may have a different opinion, but the facts support this and the context is accurate to see the correlation.

          • JDA. I think we can eliminate “wood” referring to a single tree or to cut lumber. The clues are supposed to be valid for more than a hundred years. But a grove of trees is certainly still in play because Forrest is likely to have picked a place that is highly unlikely to be disturbed, in my opinion.

          • Anon;

            Even if it says “in the soil” how does this relate to “in the wood”? and how does it relate to “experience” – which was your first thought? You are still making no sense – in my opinion – JDA

          • If you are brave and experienced I give you title to the gold.
            Nothing too hard to understand about that. Fenn stated the person will have earned the find. You can only earn something if you have experience. In this case you need more than just wondering around.
            You need to be brave because the chest isn’t near a trail as Fenn said, so you need to leave trail.

          • Anon;

            I found your quote. “Our Operations Officer was relaxed and cavalier in his briefings: “Don’t worry about the friendlies – there aren’t any up there. Pick targets of opportunity on the way back if you have Mic-Mic (bullets) left, but don’t make a second pass. Keep your airspeed up. If you get in trouble, go for the water squawking Mayday. You guys are seasoned in the soil and I’m not worried.”
            Yeah, right, he wasn’t going.”

            Again, how does “Seasoned in the soil” have anything to do with “In the wood?” – other that the use of “In the” in both cases? Forrest uses the term “Seasoned” – not “Experience(d)” anyway. Being close won’t get you the treasure Anon. JMO – JDA

          • Anon

            ‘soil – late Middle English: from Anglo-Norman French, perhaps representing Latin solium ‘seat’, by association with solum ‘ground.’

            ..and let’s not forget Dantes poem
            “Midway along the journey of our life
            I woke to find myself in a dark wood,
            for I had wandered off from the straight path.”

            but that’s just my humble interp.
            🙂

          • soil, websters 3 COUNTRY, REGION oh and there’s a stupid song and I thinks part of the lyric, “lets go into the wood tonight” your right, this whole thing is ones humble interp. its part of The thrill of the chase!

          • i agree buz, and strongly suspect that ‘chasing our tails’ was intentionally woven into the poems structure

            ..The Rasculous Architect strikes again 🙂

          • Odd you didn’t even consider the poem titled In The Wood or the cartoon from the children’s book Babe in the Wood which was used to scare children, or the other options for wood too. Like the pub phrase put one in the wood and several others, oh well perhaps it’s best everyone thinks trees for wood.

          • sure it could be a name to a place, more so if capitalised, I interpret “wood’ to be associated with trees because of Mr. Fenn’s explanation of his primary reason for writing a cryptic poem and then hiding a treasure, “to get people out in the sunshine again to smell the pine needles” (Expedition Unknown) so as long as Glenwood or Greenwood has pine trees, you could be in the right place! Ah the Thrill of the chase.

          • Brave means steel.
            In the wood refers to tree rings.
            You need to locate a steel ring.
            All IMHO.
            Glad to help.

          • thanks John R – but are you quietly implying that it’s more advantageous to be Superman’s personal proctologist?

            ..esp given that “no specialised knowledge is required” at all… 🙂

            ..i mean[BANNED!!]

            [as if the hyper-drive turbines weren’t enough to worry about, thanks hobbit!!]

            [signed: HoG admin]

          • Tom T.

            Anon;

            Please do us all a favor and state as opinion that which is opinion – not fact!
            It is MY opinion that wood does NOT = experience. JDA

          • Tom T.

            Anon;

            So, are you saying: “If you are brave and experience(d), I give you title to the gold”? Experienced in what? Rollerskating, playing Jacks, performing neurosurgery? Sorry, I do not think that you have thought this one through enough. Maybe, you have not had enough experience – haha – JDA

          • JDA, Fenn wrote that phrase in his book, except he used another word than wood when he wrote it.

          • I have to agree with JDA on this. I can’t see “wood” referring to “experience”. Just my opinion.

          • Since we are searching along a creek, the most likely meaning of “in the wood”, in my opinion, is “among the trees”.

          • Tom don’t limit yourself to waterways for creek.
            Did you know there are several trails named creek… and they aren’t next to a creek. Just something to ponder.
            But refer to Fenn book, a mission briefing was given which used the phrase “in the soil”.

          • Anon, I am not following you. You posted, “Fenn wrote that phrase in his book, except he used another word than wood when he wrote it.”
            1) What phrase?
            2) If he didn’t use the word “experience”
            in place of wood, your argument is not valid.

            Please post the quote so we can make some sense out of what you are trying to say. JDA

          • Anon, I see your point. I always found the soil comment strange and skipped over it. But on consideration, I realize it means experienced… its a saying like, “well, its a dirty job but someone’s got to do it’…. when the actual job may not really have anything to do with real dirt. JDA you’re usually pretty spot-on, but I think you’re being a little dense on this one. Think it over again.

      • Road Hawk – that’s the first time I’ve heard of someone with two cans of bear spray! I guess double fisted in the event would be much better!

        It would be my luck that I’d have overspray get me and take me down…..while the bear casually walks over for his next meal!

  20. Another effective tool for bears is a loud whistle. If the bears are feeling well fed and just hanging around, they will move off when they hear the whistle, but I recommend blowing it frequently, especially in areas where there is a good population of black bear. The grizzly bear will also move if it is full and happy, but it might come to the sound if it is late in the summer, early fall. I never go into remote bear country without my firearm, but there are many who simply will not carry, and to that I say, “good luck”!

    It is also best to do the searching during the heat of the day in summer. In the early morning and late evening they will come to water and then they roll around in the thistles and weeds afterward. Figure out your area before you march in to search. Read up on bear behavior and find out any data you can about their numbers and types. It can save your life!

    I have a solve for the first 2 clues, and my selected area is full of black bear. I have been once and will be returning as soon as I can. There have been grizzly bears in the vicinity as well, but they are much less frequently seen. It only takes one bad encounter to ruin your MOJO.

    If you have a search buddy, it’s the best way to go. Bear spray, whistles, common sense and an effective firearm for that one bad encounter. Get the money and get out quick. Stay focused all the time.

    • Forrest has said the TC is in a place where it is safe to take children, and has encouraged families to engage in the search. I have a hard time reconciling ‘family safe outing’ with grizzly and black bear, spray, whistles and firearms.

      • Ardvark bark: LMAO, I’m with you on that one…just the way you worded it tickled me good, thanks, I needed that.

      • There are three deaths per year due to bears (on average), which makes this one of the safest aspects of the chase. For reference – Dogs kill 26 per year, lightning 51, autos thousands etc…

        The most dangerous part of the chase is the driving to the Rockies and not the bears. But that doesn’t stop be from buying two cans of bear spray and carrying one in each hand. lol.

    • To add to you point about the search buddy – you don’t have to out run the bear, you only have to out run your search buddy!

      Actually, don’t run at all – that’s the last thing to do with a bear. Be armed (bear spray, etc.) and prepared….

  21. Sorry it took me some time to gather my thought on this so here they are thank
    I am unable to come up with any fresh ideas on WWWH. Our favorite is still the NM fishing guide. WARNING! The following is OUR OPINION until proven this is WRONG!
    Someone said you can find WWWH in other states but I haven’t found any in my research that are documented like the NMFG. I believe I have an open mind, for new ideas
    Recently I was trying to explain this to someone else and how Mr. Fenn is the architect of the poem. After checking the net, I found this: “Architect: A person who is responsible for inventing or realizing a particular idea or project.” The poem, chase, and TC meet these criteria. LOL!
    Mr. Fenn as a historian, writer, and art dealer knows the importance of Provenience which refers to the three-dimensional location of an object or it’s “Found Spot”. An object has more meaning if you can show when & where it was found.
    IOHO the TC has become a historical object and it has a “Found Spot”. The question now is where the Heck do we Find the Spot? The answer is in the poem written by the architect Mr. Fenn. The poem has all the information to where this spot is. Mr. Fenn has also given us hints /clues, written books, maps, interviews which all help define the history and narrative of where is the Found Spot is located. The poem is enough by itself but the other pieces give context to the poems.
    When looking for a lost city being told to start at a said landmark that we must define and find first makes our task almost impossible. But if we have a real map that states this is your boundary it may still be hard to find the lost city but at least you have a define starting place.
    History is full of stories of people places and events but without concrete proof of them they become legend and myths. Mr. Fenn the poem is all you need if you can crack the poem but a good map can be helpful in locating the TC “found spot”.
    When the riverboat Sultana burn and sunk on the Mississippi river at the ending of the Civil War killing 1700 people. Its where about were unknown until researchers found maps of the river from that time showing how the banks of the river had changed. According to an article I read the boat now sits about TWO miles from the where the river is now. Two miles! Without a “good map” from the time to show historians where to look it might not have been found.
    To have a starting place for the Chase we need a concrete place that is researchable like the NMFG map published during the time Mr. Fenn’s hide the chest. Even if climate change effects the area a person will still where that line was on a map.
    The NMFG map is a permanent record & picture in time for starting place of the chase. Every journey has a starting place and this is ours.
    Even if the area changes that map will not change unless a new one is rewritten, but the original map even if it was flawed in some way remains important to finding the TC. That is why we use the NMFG because it is a map that clearly shows WWWH at the time he hide the TC. It is a piece of history for the state of NM.
    Unless We can find as strong of a document as the NMFG that proves WWWH we must stick with the best evidence we can find. Time will only tell if our theory is right or wrong.

        • Thank you one of my favorite subjects in school but i didn’t know what it all covered

      • I really don’t like the wording of this question.

        Mr. Fenn, Is there any level of knowledge of US history that is required to properly interpret the clues in your poem.

        Even if some History would be used Fenn can easily answer “The only requirement is that you figure out what the clues mean” because nobody is required to have any knowledge of US history if they can just Google it. If an alien showed up today and had no knowledge of US History but knew how to use a search engine he, she, or it could find all it needs.

        • What if there is no such thing as a search engine? Or the world why web at all… poor ET would have to hit a lot of libraries.

          “*I could have written the poem before I hid the treasure chest, but I didn’t”

          If we take into consideration fenn found out about the cancer in 1988-? Would he have been able to write the poem that would lead the reader to his “special place”… a place he knew of prior to getting cancer.

          Fenn has stated “…a comprehensive knowledge of geography might help.”

          Maybe that geography was around long before the USA was a twinkle in Miss Liberty’s eye. I mean, if geography might help, and yet, the RM’s are still moving which would make it more difficult to find the chest in 3009… Would Knowledge of WWII help? Or know who the presidents were? Or the US highway system?

          Which bring up the comment of; ” …the more detailed a map the better, if you have the right map” and the other comment; “…good research material is TTOTC book, GE ‘and/or’ a good map.

          So I’ll ask the same old question~If the treasure could be found in a hundred years, a thousand years and even ten-thousand years down the road… would it be fair to say fenn could have written poem years prior to 1988 if he had the forethought to do so?

          Heck could he had written the poem prior to joining the military? if he had the ambition to do so and tell of his special secret place? And all before the weird warlock weary Barbary, thingamajig.

          • Hey seeker,
            Been awhile, I usually just lurk around Dal’s these days but what you just said reminded me of something I’ve posted a few times and here it is

            I often try and look at the geography in the poem like this:
            If I asked a native American directions how to get somewhere a 1000 years ago he would explain using the natural features around, which may very well be valid today and a thousand years from now.

            Enjoy, have fun, stay safe!

          • FF could have hid the treasure at any point in his lifetime and had the same clues. Regardless to that fact he could still truthfully answer the question about having a knowledge of history, at the time he answered it, the same. Even if no historical knowledge is required you could learn all you need to know from the internet. That makes me wonder if by asking and answering this question the way it was if a map and a poem is all you really need. If you were dropped in the RM’s with this poem and the best possible maps would that really be all you need?

          • Aaron,
            History; [ in my mind ] is learning of past events, taught/teachings of those human events… such as “US-history”

            Knowledge; [ In my mind ] is more understanding through experience and practice… example; we are told/taught the human body is buoyant in water… yet, we need to learn to swim by experience.

            Having any knowledge of “US” history [ google or other wise ] may not help at all… but understanding geography { while that is the study of the land involving the “past” } is not what I call “US history”

            That’s what I took from the Q&A, and my opinion.
            For example; Attempt to explain the L&C expedition with out using known given names of places and location… Just the trail and directions itself, that can be followed on GE and/or a good map.

            Better yet. Try retracing Joseph Meek’s wanderings, being chased by Indians, through his descriptions of his track from MT into YS. [Places well known of and named today, but during his adventure… was completely new and unknown to him].

            Right or wrong in my thinking… I don’t think “US” history is involved with the clues and their references.
            History itself is dissimilar in nature.

          • I really don’t believe History has anything to do with the clues but I don’t know for sure based on that Q&A that you can rule it out. It is funny how many place names and history match up with the poem. Coincidence?

          • The timeline of events points to Fenn having the chest compiled and poem written before he was cancer free.

            He stated as such with the line used to read “just leave my bones and go in peace.”

            From here it’s easy to speculate how it went afterwards, however it’s not important.
            He was ready to go, treasure packed, poem saved, and more important TTOTC was written like a certain author he wrote about.

            However becoming cancer free changed those plans and he held off on this adventure. During 2010 he decided, as he said, now was the time to do this. When Salinger passed this was his realizing moment. He updated his book a bit to include the bells and jars, and a few other things like changing the waiting in line at the book store from a dying man with cancer to an old man.

            The narrative of Fenn spending 15 years writting the poem makes more sense in this context too. He only said the difference before publishing his book and cancer was 15 years.

          • The Count,
            That raise a question as to, how we can find a 10″sq piece of land using natural features?

            We are told the chest is hidden and not to be stumbled upon… how do, or can we, we use those natural features to locate that 10″ piece of property. I think there is a reason that fenn told us of “9 clues” [whether intended or not to be nine… it came out to being 9 clues when all was said and done].

            Is wwwh just a place to start, or a needed place to be effectively draw on?

          • Seeker,
            In my post above, if your Asking someone for directions your probably familiar with what your looking for in a destination(or something that stands out) if not you get to your destination and don’t know your there, similar to the 200 footers if they are searchers. High probability what were looking for in our destination is the blaze what ever it may be. At some point in the poem the clues my turn from literal to in imagination thought, or vise versa.

            I also saw some discussion about Fenn altering the end of the poem in this string of post, one discussion about that which I have not seen yet is that part that we know could of been different but still the poem would lead one to the correct location, how is this? Is it because, its the “why” of the poem? Cannon fodder… What say you…?…
            If so these are probably the few words in the poem that may not be useful in finding the chest, if they can be changed yet the same out come.

        • Aaron.
          Fenn’s comment; “*I could have written the poem before I hid the treasure chest, but I didn’t”… Is very interesting because, it was ~unprovoked~ by a question or inquiry.

          Some may call it a clue or a hint… I simply see it as a tidbit of useful information. And what I see is, fenn had enough information prior to 1988, cancer or any other reason that kicked started the “challenge” and could have written the poem prior and without [for lack of a better term] the excuse of a cancer scare.

          The question now is… If… no “US” history is required… could young clever fenn have written the poem [example; in his teenage years]? and/or could a person like Joseph have been able to solve the same poem presented to us today?

          In all honesty, I can’t rule out fenn’s stories [memoirs] has having suggestive thoughts [we’re told it’s research material]… such as his experiences in the war… but just how far do we push “history,” and lean away from deliberate comments like, geography as helpful.

          I look at it this way… If history of the USA is involved… fenn could have ignored that “e-mail” question altogether. However, he chose to answer that particular e-mail to be posted on MW’s blog … That alone should grab our attention…

          So, If young fenn could have written the poem, before the time line of what caused birth to the challenge… does that have an impact on how we see the clue’s references? For example; some like the idea the wall memorial as clue 1. It might be, I surely don’t know. But if fenn could have created the poem prior, shouldn’t we attempt to see /understand how far “prior” goes back?

          • I posted a link above. Here is two excerpts from the wiki. When you see geography is all encompassing you’ll groan and the comment of no specialized knowledge goes out the window.

            A person who is an expert in geography is a geographer. A geographer tries to understand the world and the things that are in it, how they started and how they have changed.[2]

            Geography is divided into two main parts called physical geography and human geography. Physical geography studies the natural environment and human geography studies the human environment. The human environmental studies would include things such as the population in a country, how a country’s economy is doing, and more. There is also environmental geography.

          • Anon, I think you’re right that history and/or US History will be involved in deciphering the clues.

            F doesn’t even specifically address that part of the question about US History. He instead, picks up on the (non needed) insertion of the word required, and veers his answer towards what’s required to find the tc. Then, he throws in what’s helpful.

            In any event, many a searcher haven’t caught on to the simple fact that if one says something isn’t required, that doesn’t mean it’s not helpful.

            So, that’s two ways to see that US History can be helpful.

          • Indeed unfortunately people don’t listen to what he says or how he says it. Take contiguous, it’s been adapted to mean the clues are near each other. He said the locations and the poem is contiguous, which means that the… let’s say a tree for example that he used as a plot point and the poem clue is contiguous, nothing else…. It doesn’t means all these points are side by side.
            The whole show it to a child phrase searchers use, see above is wrong as well, he said “cana child find the treasure? Oh sure, but don’t ask me to explain that:” but he then goes on to explain that, which has necome let a child read the poem.
            If you listen to what he says and not think aboutwhat he says, then chances are the treasure is right where he said it is, in the mountains eight and half miles north of sante fe. Fenn stated though he is old he still thinks like he was 13, how does a 13yo think… I know because that’s how I think too. But too many other adults have moved on from “childish things when the got older.

          • Anon – i totally agree with your opinion regarding people who don’t listen to what he says or how he says it

            but could only find this quote; “I think kids have an advantage [finding the treasure]. Don’t ask me to explain that.” ..which sorta castes a different light altogether
            (assuming it’s correct – not sure of the source tbh)

            ( ..& no, unfortunately i haven’t read Babe in the Wood yet – is it good?)

          • That comment about a kid finding it was from the Moby Dickens book QA, after he said oh sure a kid can find it he states but don’t ask me to explain that…. and he then gives examples as why a kid could.
            And no Babe is the Wood isn’t good. It’s very morbid by today’s standards.

            https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Babes_in_the_Wood

            it can make you think. Not think about the story but as to how the language changed some 500yrs ago… so would someone 1000 years from now ever understand Forrest clues?

          • jeez Anon, with books like that it’s no wonder the psycho-therapy industry is so lucrative ..i’ll just stick to Tolkien thanks 🙂

            but why would children have a distinct ‘advantage’? ..is it because they’re small and light, therefore more easily lowered down disused vertical mine shafts on an old frayed rope with a flash-light and sandwich? ..or maybe it’s their natural penchant for imagination?

            and yes, i’d imagine 500yrs from now that people won’t actually be talking to each other face to face – they’ll just text abbrev. memo’s i reckon
            “bgn it wer wrm wtrs hlt & tk it in th cyn dwn”? ..IKR (SMH) but def NIMBY

            L8R G8R 🙂

          • Hobbit, No. It’s the imagination that kids have think slang terms like off the hook, if Fenn had said that in his poem, most people here would be so sure that he is referring to fishing as adults tend to have linear thinking. Fenn thinks like a 13yuo as he stated in his book, after all he’s a good boy who won’t break his mother’s back.

    • NMFG is my choice too. In my solve WWWH is an intermittent stream but I don’t hear of others considering this option. Have you?

  22. 80 year old 2 trips one afternoon. 1/2 mile trail 1/4 mile woods.
    still TFTW. maybe 1 mile at most total. 4 x 1/4 mile. seems more
    likely. some people think the grand prismatic spring is the blaze.
    some where you look down at the spring from..
    www halt… Fire hole, Madison, Gibbon.
    Remnants of Indian encampment. they liked near water. near tool making area. near food source. some protection form elements.
    maybe southern side of mountains area. things like circular rock
    piles found. arrowheads and tools found. there are unfound ones
    still out there. Probably one only Forrest knows where. Probably
    his special place. The Indians are dead so they can tell.
    I think Forrest spent half his time fishing and the other half exploring
    in his west Yellowstone days. It must be something in that area.
    I have not found any good matches. the distances may not be far
    apart between clues. www halt. cooking something sit down to eat.
    stop to refill your water pouch with cool water.
    Someday somebody will figure it out.

    • The hill overlook of GPS, early on Fairy Falls Trail, has been closed for a couple of years while they re-do it and make steps up what used to be a rough path, eroded from so many people hiking up there. The trail to Fairy Falls has also been closed, but you can get there from Fountain Flats. The trail is opening again late this summer, I think, and will likely have even more traffic on it–one of the most popular hikes in the park.

  23. Forrest’s favorite song IMO:

    I come to the garden alone
    While the dew is still on the roses
    And the voice I hear falling on my ear
    The Son of God discloses.

    And He walks with me, and He talks with me,
    And He tells me I am His own;
    And the joy we share as we TARRY there,
    None other has ever known.

    He speaks, and the sound of His voice,
    Is so sweet the birds hush their singing,
    And the melody that He gave to me
    Within my heart is ringing.

    I’d stay in the garden with Him
    Though the night around me be falling,
    But He bids me go; through the voice of woe
    His voice to me is calling.

    Also my favorite hymn.

    EPITAPH: Services of Memoriam held at this spot. Page 94/95 TTOTC:

    If you should ever think of me when I have passed this vale, and wish to please my ghost, forgive a sinner and smile at a homely girl.

    28 words in toll, for he was mourned by all the people.

    But Tarry Scant with Mavel Gaze,
    If you’ve been wise

    TT

      • pdenver, THANK YOU, what more is there to say?

        Hear me now and listen good: Oh tears of joy like Warm Water Halt! But cried the Ancient’s Chant:

        Journey, FOOLS go due north, past Never Land
        ‘Til a faraway island is close at hand, shaped like an arrowhead is this land you must go through.

        When you’re alone, but not alone a higher hand is guiding you;

        You will find help and an arch of stone. There’s one way across the isle’s north ridge.

        But a price must be paid at the old toll bridge, at journey’s end, you shall walk the plank
        Of the ship that sunk but never sank,

        And in the hold, amidst gems and gold,
        A wish come true awaits, for whom the bell tolled.

        But beware and be warned; there’s a trick to this clue: Wish only good will, or no good will come you.

        For the treasure you seek, you may yet come to RUE! This search never ends until you do.

        Where? An arch of stone, at Yellowstone you say? What’s at the north ridge? A toll bridge, neah, maybe a non Fishing, Fishing Bridge?

        A ship that sunk yet never sank, a special place in the Rockies! A Garden of the Gods does await, like Shangri La? A special place, a place for too rest our weary bones.

        Forgive me to E.C. Waters, for I have sinned, thanks for inspiration and the higher hand.

        TT

        • TT,

          Inspired. Truly. ( Beautiful feelings from your words.)

          In addition; I used to sing that song in church , and it’s still very special.

          SL

        • I agree with SL, Tom Terrific. Once more, your words give thought to many. Thank you.

  24. WWWH – back to the main topic: some don’t like the use of ‘geyser’ and I had argued most thermal features could be described as ‘hot springs’. The following is an excerpt from a book: called ‘Death in Yellowstone: Accidents and Foolhardiness in the first national park’, Author Lee H. Whittlesey is a permanent employee of NPS since 1989, book was originally written before being hired by NPS and was revised in 2013.

    “The park has around 10K hot springs, gyesers, mudpots, and steam vents scattered over its mountain plateau. Though collectively called thermal fetaures today, all are technically hot springs. Most are hotter than 150 deg F, and many reach temps of 185-205, (water boils at about 198 at this elevation).”

    And then this for the Firehole folks:
    “Danny Lewis a 6 year old boy was fishing with his father, William Lewis, on the Firehole River on 6/13/1958. His misstep happened at the large hot spring named Ojo Caliente. His 5 year old sister Jean was there too. Ojo is one of the park’s hottest springs at 198-202 F.”

    Of particular note is that the modern park we all know and love did not have the safety aspects we have come to know, there were still warning signs, but boardwalks/railings were less regulated, such that a death of a 9yo boy in 1970 resulted in lawsuits and the modern approach we see. For us chasers, I posit: If Fenn was guiding/working in/around the park in the 40s could he have been witness to some injuries/death? Could an experience have been profound enough that a ‘place’ might be ‘special’ to him?

    More generally I like to use the greater Yellowstone area as my WWWH…particularly given the sheer number of features…WATERS, plural, not a lot of thermal areas in the 4 states that compare. Sure, most bathing areas have ‘multiple’ pools, but many of those are constructed from a single, main source. Seeker – help me out here, what ATF am I missing using such a broad area (YNP) as a general WWWH?

    • I believe the comment was given to Dal directly… You would have to ask him exactly what was stated. [ the comment has been talked about for some time now, but many forget or dismiss it]. From memory [which is a bit dull these days ] YS is a regions, wwwh is more specific… or something like that.

      Maybe JCM, Loco, Goofy, Dal or another could chime in who’s memories is still firing on all eight cylinders.

    • Tbug, I think Yellowstone as WWWH is as good as any I have heard. One Yellowstone guide book I have states when talking about a certain area of the YS River “Thermal features end at the Yellowstone river area”. The park itself is one big Warm Waters with several areas of Warm Waters within.

  25. In his poem Forrest mentions “your effort will be worth the cold”. I would like to suggest this means nailing it cold, or finding the whole solution, rather than a place which is cold, especially in summer. The expression might be, “I have it down cold”.

    Of course, it could mean beneath a waterfall, which would also be in conjunction with “water high”, but I don’t think so. I also want to suggest that the treasure chest might be covered with any number of materials since it has been sitting there for 7 or 8 seasonal changes. High runoff, shifting dirt, animals and dead foliage blowing over it could be hiding it further.

    So, do any of you take a metal detector with you on searches?

    • I like the waterfall idea but it seems to me hard to find a waterfall that is within walking distance and not in close proximity to a human trail. Rapids with small drops hear and there but not many waterfalls.

  26. A little different thought.

    ARE THE WARM WATERS HALTING ???
    OR, ARE THEY HALTING YOU?????

    Such as if you where driving down a road and saw, example; Old Faithful erupting or steam rising off a river or lake, some similar event?

    I think that would be warm water halting the traveler to stop and watch for a while.

  27. Forrest said that where warm waters halt is not a dam. However, he never said it couldn’t be somewhere higher above a dam, off the lake itself closer to where the waters enter.

    This question might be best left with a water expert, but isn’t it subjective as to when the warmer waters stop and drop in temperature? Some lakes above a dam are miles long.

  28. What if the ‘s’ in waters is meant to be moved to before the ‘h’ in halt? What then?
    I have the distinct impression that this line of the poem has exactly zero to do with any type of temperature changes, IMO. I think the word ‘warm’ was crafted to deceive.

  29. “You over simplify the clues. There are many places in the Rocky Mountains where warm waters halt, and nearly all of them are north of Santa Fe. Look at the big picture, there are no shortcuts.”

    This may hint that looking at WWWH as a stand alone clue is an oversimplification…. or simply that the clue does not stand alone… in other words the identity WWWH can only be verified by it integral role in fitting along with the other clue locations to the poem. Yet Forrest recommends dwelling on the first clue…

    • One WWWH that I have toyed with is a “big picture” interpretation that spans history and begins the big X outside of the search area. The Bering land bridge where the seas were halted to allow early America’s explorers down the canyon of ice (navigable divide between the great glaciers) that corresponded with our Rocky Mountains and allowed access to our country. Now cross this north to south migration with the east west (nigh) migration a la Lewis and Clark and whatta get? A big X!

      • Been there done that DW. The problem is, well, you’re all over the place… If you can explain how searchers walked past the remaining seven clues and the chest, I would be very interested. Seriously, How many references / clues do you think you have used to form that X? I see wwwh, canyon down, too far to walk for the travel from [3-4 clues?] the old world to the new world… but how is it connected with the east west passage [L&C expedition] as far as clues are concern?

        • Just toyed with it… never got serious enough to go… but my eyes were on Lemhi Pass.

        • You see the connections to the other lines in the poem… that’s the point… I believe that the poem makes a big X or something like a big X to indicate the final treasure location. I realize the likely flaws with this big spread but I’m not sold on the idea that all of the clue locations fit within a walkable distance from each other… they may. Or they may just all fit within a general area such as YNP where searchers cover a lot of common ground during their visit.

          • I believe there is a chance that the poem makes a big X as well. X is the only letter of the alphabet not in the poem but perhaps it makes one thus finishing the alphabet.

    • Hint in the noun form is a small piece of practical information or advice:
      “handy hints on saving energy in your home”
      synonyms: tip · suggestion · piece of advice · word of advice · pointer · clue · cue · guideline · recommendation · advice · help · how-to · wrinkle
      So, is there a difference between the two and if not, where is the starting point then? I can’t remember the exact quote…you have to start at the beginning, the first clue. Now from the definition clue & hint mean the same, no difference, only opinion then. Mr. Fenn said, WWWH is the first clue but he’s also said, not to discount any of the words. Interpretation of facts is always based on a singular opinion. And I will end with…IMO

      • I am sure that Fenn has avoided identifying WWWH as the first clue, although he may be read to have suggested that it is. That being said I don’t know what else you said?

        • Mr Fenn has stated in a radio interview that the first clue is WWWH, that’s fact. I was stating that by definition clue and hint are the same. That also means that WWWH could have been called the first hint by Mr. Fenn. There’s no difference, so why forget about the first stanza, makes no sense to me. IMO Many are skipping the first words spoken by a man hinting of millions of dollars. Why would you ignore anything.

        • There is a radio interview Fenn did with Radio New Zealand Apr 13, 2013 in which he indicated that the line containing WWWH was indeed Clue #1. Check it out.

          • Wow. Just listened to it… and that was 2013!! There are quite a few people posting on various discussions here who argue that the first clue is in the first stanza… I guess they missed that interview.

        • Blueinred—

          Thanks for that link. I had never heard that interview before. He does definitely say that the first clue is there. But I still don’t think that means we can simply discount the first stanza. I am not saying that you are stating that yourself– but some have.
          But I am very glad that I listened to the interview— it is an eye opener.

    • Other big picture WWWH could be:

      The 45th parallel as it is a common northern latitude at which sea ice begins to form (there are some places where seas freeze south of this, however).

      The sky…or the Big Sky… because warm water evaporates and condenses in the sky to return to the ground and be warmed again.

  30. The warm water features of Yellowstone park area stopped the Indians
    from building villages there. As only temporary encampments were made
    They only entered and left the area after short stays. I read that somewhere. He talks about his digging days before New Mexico days.
    Or Taos. There is known encampments in Yellowstone.
    I thought the buffalo were sometimes called brown buffalo.
    The Indians were artful. lots of colored muds and tool making areas
    and food. I read they did not eat fish. I think the place is a Native
    American encampment found and only known by Forrest. Up a creek
    to higher ground where the water is cool no hot springs. Make there tools and decorate there things. WWW halted the Indians from
    calling it home. YNP.

    • The designation of yellowstone park was initially defined as the area that encompasses all of the thermal features. As the first national park the warm waters of yellowstone set a precedent for halting development to preserve nature. The conversation that led to YNP occurred at Madison Junction circa 1870. So YNP began at MJ and then the painting “taken” by Thomas Moran at Inspiration Point of the canyon falls was presented to congress sealing the deal on the designstion of YNP. Most who study the chase know this story… I just present it as another big picture angle on WWWH.

  31. I can’t shake the Madison. Until I can exhaust it, I will continue to search this area.

  32. It is a worthy start *madison junction*… I wonder how popular it was back when Fenn said *2013 NZ interview* that “two parties have correctly identified the first two clues…”?

  33. Just a thought….
    No TTOTC adventures in Colorado., Is it ff’s start-over place? …. “It would be nice to start life over and do it all again. I’d change so much, but only for the sake of new adventures. ”

    And because he keeps Flywater on a closer shelf, I kinda like Shelf Rd from Canynon City to Lame Waters. It has a window rock, a Viet Nam Memorial and maybe a 1 car tunnel to go alone in there. If I could travel, I would verify.

    • Hey OS2….it just makes me think more like a kid and remember those carefree days of jumping cross the creek – I’d hang out at – by holding onto the weeping willow limbs that would drape across the creek. Never a paddle was needed up that creek either….LOL…..just fun and imagination. And maybe a frog or two to chase.

      Good Luck.

  34. Excited! Heading out next week from Florida by automobile (3 day journey)…darn this is tough but I have to do it. Selling some things to make it happen. WWWH must be in the summer somewhere. So, Santa Fe, here I come! My second trip for the Treasure, last time it was snowing. Meeting a friend to help with the hunt and help prevent a mountain lion attack and other safety concerns. My friend can only stay 2 days though. I may need someone else to help me after he departs, (if two days isn’t enough)….no way I’m going alone. If anyone is up for it let me know.
    It’s now or never.

    I’m not big on NYC, but will suffer an interview on GMA after finding the treasure of course. Most of all though, I look forward to finally meeting someone who has become very dear to me, Forrest Fenn, and returning his bracelet.
    Question: Anyone have any ideas about what secret item Fenn says he placed in the chest?
    I sincerely believe it is a….

    Ciao for now!

  35. Ok been following this site for awhile but never committed but I just thought I’d do a quick poll on this who thinks wwh is a place were actuall warm or hot water haults or if wwh is a place that is named or somewhat named by warm and waters or it could be something esle entirely

    • Hi Rodney…..I’ll help you out with you polling….

      You asked:

      “who thinks wwh is a place were actuall warm or hot water haults or if wwh is a place that is named or somewhat named by warm and waters or it could be something else entirely.”

      I’m in…and have always been in the camp that WWH is the edge of civilization somewhere…..where waters halt completely.

      Many refute this, but only refuite it with…..
      there are just too many……uhm….DUH!!…..FF isn’t going to make it easy, and he wants it to be out there for a long time.

      I’m not going to let that happen…..*winks*…..

      Good luck to you!

  36. DWRock. I agree in that I don’t think “where warm waters halt” is a stand-alone clue. There has to be something else in the poem that narrows down the search area for this clue, in my opinion, and I think it’s the first stanza.

  37. Forrest has said that wwwh. Is not a dam would that mean a reservoir cannot be the start??? Just looking for opinions on the subject. Thnx in advance.

    • Depends on whether you think that Fenn is being straightforward, or is he misleading. My opinion is that Fenn iis straightforward with all of his statements and that when he says dam, he is also including the lake. You will find others on this site that do not agree with my opinion, that think he answers questions in such a way as to be misleading, crafty, tricky, etc.

        • Well I don’t believe that he is misleading in anyway but I’m still having trouble excluding all bodies of water that have a dam. I mean look at hebgen lake and how big it is. Do we exclude that entire body of water because it has a dam at the lower end ???

          • You exclude only the area associated with the dam
            So river ——》lake{~~~} dam~| river —–》 then wwwh can be the river in, lake, and some point on thep river after the dam. Wwwh is not the dam.
            So the lake is still in play.

          • I can see that point and tend to agree but if your starting point is a road that starts at a lake or reservoir created by a dam and the road passes the dam would your starting point be excluded because of the dam??? It all gets so confusing and we’re reduced to opinions as to what he means.

          • In my opinion, yes, you can exclude the entire lake. Excluding the dam from consideration would serve no purpose if you still allowed lake water to be a possibility.

          • Questgeek Hopefully mine and Tom answer helped to clears up your confusion.
            Since its now solvable, goodluck.

        • Hey pdenver.

          I also think FF says things to help us….although in a very vague manner.

          I also don’t believe he misdirects in what he says, but plays on the inordinant amount of misdirection that was constructed to be within the poem.

          Literally, each of the clues can have a minimum of two meanings….some up to ten.
          – is this misdirection?….only if the searcher decides to go down those rabbit holes.

          Be the chest.

          :o)

          • “No Ms Ford, my eyes were open only my eye lids were closed” ff

            The truth is eyes wide shut now becomes clear.

          • Hey Anon…..thanks for responding.

            I tell ya….the poem is constructed in ways that one NEEDS to think and be like FF.

            Understand his ways. Observe his slightest movement, because body language can lead you also to a better understanding of why he wrote something as he did.

            One needs to immerse themselves into the poem and imagine themselves as FF.

            Imagination is of a child.

            Are you child like yet? Are you all primped and proper?

            You see…one can garner a very impressionistic feel as they become more and more child like.

            Now you can better understand the “spirit” (spiritual) side of the poem that many rebuke.

            Good luck and I hope that helped in your thoughts.

            Cheers!

          • Tim, Heed your advice and listen to what Fenn has said then… het back in the box. ✌

            Don’t dive into the deep end with waders on is all you need to know

          • Hi Anon.

            Oh….I heed and play on every interview and writing FF has made.

            I discount nothing, but add a dose of imagination to them all.

            I have figured that FF wants us to play his game….but in order to any of us to win, one must think like FF in order to understand how the game is played or what plays need to be made while in the game.

            Am I cautious or risky?
            Do I think before I act, or act on impulse?
            Is he talking about one thing, but the actually meaning is something different?
            Is the poem one big “synonym” that we have to figure out, and then put those synonyms in a specific order, in order to justify the clues are accurate?

            I think that this could be a big difference between many seekers and myself…..I’ll take a rabbit hole and dissect it enough to make it a non-issue. Others will travel down one and try to make it fit the puzzle.

            One must marry the poem to geographical locations….and trust me….there are thousands of possibilities……but one path will consistently work itself out to an end point. That is our goal. How you go about and do it…..is what has been tasked upon us.

            One needs to use many things in solving this conundrum…..and many are doing just that…..But evidently, of all the many attempts made in the recent years…….clearly, none of those things have worked out positively, ended in loss for many, ended in a major loss for a few…….but overall, for the seeker, and then the community it shows how seekers have not actually done enough to make a general solve into the correct one.

            BTW – I’M NOT GETTING BACK INTO THE BOX!!

            You cannot make me!!

            :o)

            There is just so much one cannot see while inside the box….including being unable to see the space that they are standing in, while inside the box……thus, being outside of the box, I can see everything without obstacles in my way.

            Be the chest.

          • Tim, then youre on the right track… just keep the crazies inside your head with the other voices. Lol.
            Then you should enjoy my solutions I’ll post in about 3weeks

          • I’m supposed to keep the other voices in my head?

            Oh – so now you tell me.

            You know Anon, everytime I am remote viewing they come out and squabble.

            I’m not so sure that is the best direction I should take.

            :o)

          • You may want to kick those free loaders out, they don’t seem to be helping with finding wwwh.
            How many locations have you narrowed the search to?

          • Fenn wrote when he volunteered at a DUO some 30miles from home. He handed out coats at the end of the night not looking at who’s was who’s. He said he and Skippy ran back to the safety of an address (their home).
            Don’t be literal in what Fenn says and realize what expressions are.

          • Anon, you are speaking in riddles and analogies.

            “Don’t be literal in what Fenn says and realize what expressions are.”

            Oh I do…..you really aren’t reading what I post, huh?

            *shrugs*

            You seem to be limiting what FF states to a certian subscribed method.

            Uhm….okay….sure……hope you find some luck within that tactic.

            Be the chest.

  38. Actually, assuming that Feen means “water that is warm to the touch” when he refers to “warm waters”, we can exclude all lakes (regardless of whether there is a dam), unless they are actively fed by a warm water source. Water may be warm on the surface of a lake, but that is because the sun warms it up in place; the warm water didn’t flow to that point, so it couldn’t have halted.

    • I think Forrest excluded dams because he perceived them as a possible safety hazard, not to make the search any easier.

      • Yes, limiting dams is a safety issue as he limited the rio too., so people dont mess with them and or get hurt.
        I did see someone had a good take on warm waters for a lake temp. As you mention the top warms, which that could be the spot as it doesn’t go too far down and hence halted at the surface as well as freezes in winter making the surface of a lake a possible halting location. From there just need brown and a creek.

        • Anon,
          Have you read the entire comment about; wwwh is not a dam?
          If not. It might help with your comment about ~ the top warms…

          “Many searchers have thought that warm waters halt at a dam because water being released through flues near the bottom of the dam is much colder than water on the surface of the lake. I have discussed around that subject with several people in the last few days and am concerned that not all searchers are aware of what has been said. So to level the playing field to give everyone an equal chance I will say now that WWWH is not related to any dam.” ff

          ~Many searchers have thought that warm waters halt at a dam because water being released through flues near the bottom of the dam ~is much colder than water on the surface of the lake.~

          Whether a dammed lake or a natural lake… are they not the same in regards to surface water to lower depth water?

          So you have to ask yourself… IF wwh was a lake… why didn’t the searchers who “indicated” “figured” “deciphered the first clue[s] didn’t know they did? I mean, we’re not talking a mud puddle here.

          • Seeker notice what Fenn said. He said water released by the dam.
            This is the area he said isn’t where wwwh is not.
            He didn’t discount the actual lake itself, only the part being released.
            The subtle difference is where the misdirection is.

            So if he only said it’s not by a dam, why would you then through the entire lake out?

          • i’m with Seeks on this one, Anon

            by the very nature of ’cause and effect’, a reservoir is an intended consequence of the damming process, therefore directly related to the dam in question

            i’m almost brave enough to consider a reservoir (in its entirety) to be a man-made structure, given that it’s not a representation of natural geography

            i also strongly suspect that all the 9clues relate to natural geography solely, and the only human-print involved is the place name(s) that were allocated to them

            so, when someone wise finally cracks this great puzzle (but not me) i’m sure my response will be.. 6EQUJ5!!
            🙂

          • CH-
            I am in accord with you in your belief that all nine clues in the poem are related to naturally occurring places and not places made by man. and I’ll up the ante by saying that I also always consider that Forrest wanted his last view on earth to be from the place where the chest is hidden. This suggests to me that this place is indeed “special” in it’s calm and unique location devoid of human touches but resplendent in all things natural. Finally, I suspect the hidey spot is relatively easily accessible for a man who may be physically declining from a debilitating and aggressive illness.

          • thanks Spalls 🙂
            [note to self: immediately triple Spallies annual Hobbitses Fan Club fees to $3.60]

            Dal – “pillowed down and scented in” is exactly where i’d prefer to be, when my Lion of the Moment comes knocking

            btw, are you small, light and good with vertical mine-shafts at all? ..jus asking

            (i mean.. there’s a free ham-sandwich with extra mustard on offer, fyi 🙂 )

          • all jests aside though Dal, riddle me this;

            1) if the clues all refer to geo-places, then does that suggest that the Blaze has a current name too – if not splashed all over GE, possibly a quietly and locally known nick-name for that feature?

            2) what does Forrest mean re: “seems prudent to do a little investigating about higher things”? as the only vert.height i can recall him stating is the 10200ft max. and 5k min. hint (albeit, i’m prob the least researched searching researcher here)

            but what’s 10″200″ about? ..i mean, is there some sorta 1.9318182 mile-high club that i’ve completely never heard of??

            (& please don’t answer that pdenver!)

            (your bitcoin-bribe’s in the mail, as usual) 🙂

          • Hi ch…..

            “2) what does Forrest mean re: “seems prudent to do a little investigating about higher things”? ”

            …and once again, we have a reference to a “spiritual” connection…..

            Uhm….okay….sure…..so why bother, huh?

            :o)

          • CH-
            Jests aside:
            1. I think it’s possible that the clue locations have names and I agree that the names won’t necessarily show up on GE…at least not past the first two clues. In fact, if they do not, that might be part of the answer to why the little girl from India cannot get past clue number two. For instance, there are a number of names for local geographic features on my island such as Bumstead Spit, Fern Point, Devil’s Slide, Lover’s Bluff, Legoe Bay, Deer Creek, etc. But you’d never know it from using GE to examine the geographical features of the island. However, if I use Garmin Base Camp those names pop up when I examine the island as they do on a USGS topo or even some locally made maps.

            The flaw in this concept would be when Forrest pointed out that GE or a good map would be usefull-
            “Excellent research materials are TTOTC, Google Earth, and/or a good map. f”
            This quote is from Scrapbook Sixty Two on this blog.

            But he also made this odd statement over on Jenny’s site-
            “What I didn’t expect was the number of people who immediately started searching maps and using Google Earth to locate their special spots…”

            Which leads me to wonder where he did expect folks to go to get information that would help them locate their special spots…I assume it would have been TTOTC.

            Since I believe that Forrest intended the hunt to get folks out of the house and away from their computers it seems to me, more likely that he arranged the clues so that you not only have to recognize the hints in TTOTC but you also have to tie them into a location that can be broadly found on a map and then be standing in that location to identify the clues beyond the second clue and this is the reason the little girl from India cannot get past the second clue.

            One final thought about that location…I can’t point to where Forrest said this, I hope someone else can…so this is not a quote…only my recollection of his words..
            Forrest was asked if a person in a wheelchair could get to the chest and Forrest said, yes…with some help. This idea has guided me in my search for the chest. Specifically in how difficult the actual route to chest might be.

            2. I have no idea what he means and I like to think that remark was aimed at you CH and not me. In fact I am sure of it..(ok maybe not all jesting aside)

            Forrest goes off script from time to time…as has been pointed out by others. There are a lot of facts to keep straight and Forrest occasionally does some reinventing of what he has said previously about some element of the hunt…I am certain this isn’t on purpose…just happens some times when he talks or even writes about the hunt.

            For instance I once heard him say that the chest was hidden between 5,200 and 10,000 feet. somewhat transposing the numbers that he typically has stated as the elevation of the hidden chest.

            I think he picked those numbers at (more or less) random and has had to live with them since he first stated them. I have heard Forrest use random numbers in other statements not related to the hunt. That is to say that most of us might just say the chest is located between 5,000 and 10,000 feet. Forrest likes to add uniqueness…hence the 5,000 and 10,200. I don’t think 10,200 means anything specifically to him. Just a number that was unique. He could have just as easily said 10,214 feet and 3 inches. (thank goodness he didn’t).

          • Dal,

            I sure hope someone can find the wheel chair quote because I tried and failed too. Never heard that one before. A similiar quote (paraphrased) was that a child would need some help but I took that to mean more for lifting and carrying the TC and not because a child would need help just getting to it.

            Pinatubocharlie

          • I think it was in one of the letters to Forrest posts here.

            It went pretty much as Dal said.

          • Hi Pinatubocharlie….

            If you read this quote as you have stated it, and is in fact soemthing said by FF….one can also extrapolate that with much difficulty, in order for a wheelchair to transverse a river or creek would be quite cumbersome or very difficult.

            The statement, IMO – now gives us information that the chest is not located in a place where a wheelchair would have to travel, and that could logically be considered a creek or a river.

            Thus, the trove could now be on only land.

          • Dal – all unruly unwieldliness aside..

            1) i’m a great believer in the philosophy “if a man randomly scratches his head, it’s simply coz it’s itchy” ..so yes, i believe the LGFI remark holds true substance, esp if it was a spontaneous-ish reply, and (being that it was officially said with obvious thought) def possesses value, imho

            but no-one knows what Forrest and/or Jenny meant by “a map of the Rockies” precisely – so surely he pre-considered all possibles (re: good and/or bad map inclusive) in order to cover all the bases..
            which strongly implies that clue3 at least, solely requires local knowledge, a specific map or botg (or all three, maybe) to successfully solve it

            and yes, his comment re: “what i didn’t expect was..” does seem to lend credence toward TTOTC being more important, but still doesn’t float-my-boat enough to disregard his “level playing field” philosophy either

            2) are you quietly implying that “investigating higher things” is a polite suggestion that i should just grow-up (finally) ..or something?!
            tsk tsk ..sounds like it 🙁

            [note to self: immediately report Dal to Dr Seuss, for biological re-processing]

            [ ..and frantically google “10,214 feet and 3 inches” ..just in case 🙂 ]

          • CH,
            fenn has stated [ in a video I believe , and I’m paraphrasing ]. The treasure is not on top of a mountain…… (but may be close to the top).
            And as you quoted; “seems prudent to do a little investigating about higher things”

            You have to wonder if hoB is equal to or even above wwwh.
            Then we have water high… another possible indicator for an elevation factor. But the problem is… do we have “information” contained in the poem that gives us any elevation height?

            So I pose these questions to anyone; Is begin it where, the same as begin it when?
            and is wwh halt waters, “waters” that use to be? [waters that have all the properties of its stages.]

            An example of the thought, wwh was a glacier [hint of riches of new and old] Old waters that now have drained leaving water high, New water… while “riches” might refer to the natural needs of water[s] for existence… creating canyon down, creating water high, streams, creeks, rivers etc. where dreams and fantasies alike go to play.

            For any of this to happen we need one important qualifier… elevation.
            Well, Umm and Issac, who we all know wrote the ‘law of gravitation.’ Who’d a thought he was a legislator… looks more like a magistrate with that Hollywood Hair.

            Just rambling and rumbling….

          • Seeks – i interp “not on a mountain-top, but maybe close” as being..
            maybe in close proximity to a mountain, rather than the “top” of one

            therefore, possibly using a mountain as a reference object,
            that might cross-connect with other hints (like 10,200ft) if they are in-fact hints at all (?)

            i.e Mt Washburn is 10243ft above sea-level, for example

            (..that’ll def stir up a hornets-nest of YSP nay-sayers – where’d i leave that darn fly-swatter 🙂 )

          • Good point about the blaze, CH.

            I am wondering much right now if the blaze was something placed by Forrest while hiding the treasure, or if it was a feature already there when he showed up.

            I think that this would be a great question for someone to ask Forrest on the Mysterious Writings site, but I would hazard to guess that this would be one of those questions that Forrest would decline to answer.

          • Blex – you could be correct on both counts, but i’m firmly in the “already existed” camp for three reasons:

            1) the blaze is more likely to last a thousand more years if it has already existed for a thousand before-hand

            2) it’s not impossible to remove the blaze, but unfeasible to try

            3) there’s an unspoken law amongst all true lovers-of-nature,
            which is “leave no trace” ..with the obvious exception of the TC admittedly.

            so (imho) the only adjustment that Forrest made to such pristine surrounds, is leaving behind a small Romanesque style lock-box ..with stuff in it 🙂

          • Dal~ “Forrest was asked if a person in a wheelchair could get to the chest and Forrest said, yes…with some help.

            That was a posting here from a blogger asking about [in an-mail she sent and received, from fenn] if her husband who was wheel chaired bound could have access to spot the chest lays in wait… who or when that was posted I’m not sure… [I think it is in JCM documents.]

          • Pinatubocharlie,
            This is the Q&A you mentioned… In full… to add to what Dal mentioned as well.

            Forrest,
            You said in the past that the chest is not in a dangerous place; yet searchers are searching along Cliffside’s, raging water, and other seemingly dangerous places. Could you please elaborate or qualify your statement in which you said” The chest is not in a dangerous place”
            Thanks
            Edward
            Edward, thanks for the question.
            The treasure is not hidden in a dangerous place in the normal definition of the word, realizing that there probably is no place on this planet that is safe under all conditions. Bloggers have quoted me as saying that a child could walk up to the treasure. I don’t think that’s an accurate quote because a three year old girl would have a problem without some help. Remember, I was about 80 when I hid the chest, and had to make two trips.f

          • Your welcome Seeker. You were part of that conversation too. First I saw of it today by searching . My memory is a bit suspect on wheelchair but I somewhat remember FF being asked the question about a person being in a wheelchair if they could search. Not from this post I attached but I can’t remember if it was a radio interview or video. I am pretty sure he was asked the question in one of them though.

          • Alsetenash,

            It’s not that I don’t believe what Donna stated… I want to say that first.
            But we don’t have the entire question or full response for me to utilize it completely.
            However, It does make ya think that, fenn needed to make two trips, a three year old would need some help, as well as, a wheelchair could possibly traverse the same area ~ with help…
            You have to wonder why other folks insist on making river crossing in a blowup dingy, Climb switchbacks from 5000′ to 9000′, Travel up and down some nasty looking canyon that a mountain goat would think twice about etc. etc. and so on.

            Add another Q&A;
            Q- Who else knows where the treasure is buried?
            A- I never said it was buried. I’ve avoided that word. I hid it. I don’t mean to imply that it isn’t buried. I just didn’t want to give that as a clue. It took me two trips in my car to hide the treasure.**** And I can tell you an 80-year-old man is not going to make a trip into a canyon, then come up and go down again.**** As for who else knows, I’m the only one. My wife doesn’t know. [People.com… people celebrities]

            I agree with Dal’s assessment… relatively easily accessible

            So I’ll add my last thought with this quote [ in part ]
            “It’s not a matter of trying, its a matter of thinking. Sure I mean, people figured the first couple of clues and unfortunately walked past the treasure chest.”

          • Seeker. I agree. We don’t gave the complete quote. I just sort of remember him referring to it in a interview somewhere where he talks of the question of handicapped persons or wheelchair bound persons if they could participate in the ttotc. His words were of such that everyone can participate in their own way etc. But I can’t quote him on it so it’s just my opinion. It wasn’t a direct question but him talking about being asked the question I think. I’ll continue my response to your other words in your post in odds and ends thread.

          • Seeker/Alsetenash/PinatuboCharlie and anyone else following along: there is also this contradictory (and more recent) quote from the Mysterious Writings Q & A “Know the Limits” (16 June 2017):

            “If you or your son have any physical limitations please don’t attempt the search. Many flatlanders suffer altitude sickness in the Rockies.”

            I would certainly consider a wheelchair-bound individual to have some physical limitations.

          • Zap,

            These kind of contradictions are killing me. A person in a wheel chair with some help can find it, but if you have physical limitations don’t go. What?

            Forrest, though I seriously doubt you will, can you please give us some degree of clarification for such a big contradiction?

            Pinatubocharlie

          • Pina-
            Don’t let Forrest’s comments confuse you. They don’t me because I remember the timeframe and the circumstances of most of his comments. As the chase has evolved…so have his cautionary statements…

            His comment about kids being safe in the area was in direct response to a question from a mom about searching with her kids and was just a couple years into the search…long before anyone killed themselves looking for the treasure and long before anyone knew folks were putting themselves in danger looking for the chest.

            His remark about the wheelchair was about the same time and under the same circumstances…

            Now that it is clear that some folks do not pay attention to these hints about the generally safe location and to prevent folks from taking chances Forrest is taking a much more safety oriented stance. He is telling people outright to be cautious. He is doing this without trying to give anything away..

            I am certain that folks who don’t listen are quite frustrating to Forrest…He never intended anyone to get hurt looking for the chest…and yet they have…
            So…now his words are more cautionary…less room for interpretation…

            He is warning folks with physical limitations away from looking…because the mountains can be dangerous anytime and anyplace even if the chest is in a relatively safe place to be searching…
            This is the voice of caution speaking…

            Earlier his directions were more inviting because there was no evidence that folks were ignoring his statements and trying foolish maneuvers while searching.

            I think we have to give Forrest a break about some of these contradictions…Times are changing… These deaths are a tragedy and Forrest is trying to prevent more deaths while not taking away the fun that most of us are having looking for the darn thing.

          • I appreciate your explanation Dal and fully understand his concerns about safety as I have them too. I’m sure people putting their lives on the line and paying the ultimate price weighs on him heavily. I hope never to be in that position because I don’t know if I’d be able to live with myself.

            sorry for not responding sooner, but I’m playing catch up this morning from yesterday’s posts.

            Pinatubocharlie

          • Zaps – i construe physical limitations as meaning lack of cardio-fitness, as much as wheel-chair bound individuals, tbh

            ..maybe even more-so given that the context of Forrests comment includes ‘flatlanders & alt. sickness’, as we all know how physically debilitating a lack of oxygen can be, esp after holding our breath for more than five minutes straight

            (btw.. did you know that altitude sickness most commonly occurs above 8000ft? 🙂 )

          • CH…I live at 6000 ft….and the local ski resort tramway goes up to 10300+.

            I think if you frequent higher elevations it subsides drastically.

          • Responding to the CH and Dal exchange above. Dal replied, in part, “I think it’s possible that the clue locations have names and I agree that the names won’t necessarily show up on GE…at least not past the first two clues.”

            I think that depends a lot on a user’s personal settings in GE. There are a lot of radio buttons for activating various “layers” in GE. While I think GE is very useful for visualization of topography, measuring distances, personal annotating and so on, I wouldn’t depend on it for place names. USGS topo maps and/or Forest Service maps are more thorough on that score.

            Dal added: “Since I believe that Forrest intended the hunt to get folks out of the house and away from their computers it seems to me, more likely that he arranged the clues so that you not only have to recognize the hints in TTOTC but you also have to tie them into a location that can be broadly found on a map and then be standing in that location to identify the clues beyond the second clue and this is the reason the little girl from India cannot get past the second clue.”

            I still think Forrest’s little girl in India response was constrained by the specificity of the question posed. All the poor girl has is a map of the U.S. Rockies and the poem. That’s like the “Nope” question about 500 years in the future and having only the poem and no back story. I think the person that eventually figures out Forrest’s hiding place will have solved a lot more than just WWWH when they set out to retrieve the chest.

            But in answer to CH’s question, “if the clues all refer to geo-places, then does that suggest that the Blaze has a current name too – if not splashed all over GE, possibly a quietly and locally known nick-name for that feature?”, my opinion is that the blaze is a named feature on the right map (i.e. not a map of the entire U.S. Rockies).

          • @Pinatubocharlie,
            I think that your question is a valid one, and quite relevant.

            I have corresponded with numerous searchers over the years, who based their involvement upon the following statement:

            “I would not have hidden the treasure if I didn’t want everyone to have a fair chance of finding it. F”

            Zap’s interpretation of Fenn’s June 16, 2017 comment: “If you or your son have any physical limitations please don’t attempt the search.”…. seems quite reasonable. Someone who is wheelchair-bound definitely has physical limitations.

            And on June 25, 2017 Fenn seems to have somewhat defined the “physical limitations” when he said: “I don’t know I could physically get it. I’m not as agile as I once was. … When I walk 50 yards, I have to sit down.”

            It would seem that it is futile for anyone who cannot “walk” at least 50 yards, without sitting down, to attempt the search. The inability to “walk” more than 50 yards is also a definite “limitation”.

            I never, before, found any room for interpretation in his, “I would not have hidden the treasure if I didn’t want everyone to have a fair chance of finding it. F”….thus, I encouraged all, regardless of “physical limitation”, to engage in the Chase.

            But, I can see that the word “everybody” can have limitations as to what it means to…..depending upon which way the wind is blowing, or as “times change”.

            Perhaps Forrest would like to go back and edit his ‘note’: “I would not have hidden the treasure if I didn’t want everyone to have a fair chance of finding it. F”….to reflect the ‘changing times’??

            Anyway, Good Luck to Most, who choose to remain engaged!!!…..loco

          • Forrest has been a stand up kind of guy by continuously offering up bits of info over the years…mostly to keep folks from getting into mischief(grave yards, outhouses etc.). Given the unsafe searches folks are executing Forrest has taken things a step further and offered up some pretty clear statements for the sake of safety. I am sure he feels terrible about the unfortunate accidents that have caused 2 deaths and is putting himself out there by being more clear about the limitations…while keeping the Chase viable for those who wish to keep searching.
            I believe that the pressure should be shouldered by BOTG searchers to BE PREPARED in all aspects before actually leaving for your trip. PERIOD.
            Quibbling over inconsistencies in Forrest’s statements and calling him out is just plain ridiculous(IMO). I don’t think he owes any of us a dang thing !

          • You make a good argument, CH and could very much be right. I’m still sitting squarely on the fence though right now (OW!).

            If the blaze is something that stands out in an area surrounded by nothing but nature, something man-made would stick out like a sore thumb. On the other hand, there are a number of naturally occurring features that could also serve the same purpose.

            Come to think of it, if the blaze does turn out to be a man-made object – say, a metal disc nailed to a tree or some such – I could practice “leave-no-trace” and take it with me too! Another collectible artifact for me to auction off at Sotheby’s! Hooray!

          • Blex – i’m not entirely convinced of anything Chase related tbh, so you could be completely right re: man-made blaze

            i’m just trying to marry logic with imagination, which is never easy with only one brain-cell – trust me 🙂

            ..it’s sorta like a ‘time-share’ thing 🙁

  39. ok – lets just say that wwwh is not a dam – and its just my opinion – that you will drive by one because of heavy loads and waters high and because of no paddle up your creek- imo

      • thanks Tom – lets not forget no paddle up your creek – once you get to heavy loads – it could be the end of the creek or the beginning imo

    • Frank;

      Remember that Forrest has said something to the effect that not every word is important, but not to discount any of them…or something like that – WARM, I put in the important category – JMO – JDA

  40. If you define warm waters as any water above freezing, you would probably be searching one of the many glacial areas left in the Rockies.

  41. And then again, what if we are interpreting the whole thing wrong? What if we begin where it is warm, where waters halt? Are we to assume that it’s where warm waters halt? What if we are suppose to solve every line in the poem? What if you get “lake” for this line. Lake has many definitions: what if he means the deep color red? then what?
    Point being, to hone in on the so called clues has not panned out yet. It’s possible that you cannot solve for WWWH until you’ve solved the poem.
    Maybe solving the poem, line for line, is the way to solve for the clues. He did say that the 5th line is the first clue. Not the first sentence, not the whole stanza, just, “Begin it where warm waters halt”. That “line” is the first clue, lol, so what, now what do you have? Back to square one and the comment, there are a lot of places in the Rocky mountains…etc…etc…etc. To much guessing.
    Can’t wait until somebody posts their solve and it doesn’t start out with the usual “guess”.
    Colokid, where are you, I’m starting to think you are right, that we are just to soft on each other. We need to get a little more “harsh” on how we see each others solves. Maybe then, posters will be hard on themselves and weed out the guess work.
    Your right CH, I need a walkabout…

    • Charlie – when in doubt, walkabout 🙂

      “There are children playing in the streets who could solve some of my top problems in physics, because they have modes of sensory perception that I lost long ago.”
      – Robert Oppenheimer

      • Hi curious hobbit…..I can see you are slowly warming up to my thinking…..good…..welcome to my world.

        :o)

        Good luck from “up-over”…instead of “down-under”…..

        Be sure to look me up if you go thru ABQ.

        LOL

        • Hi Tim ..yes, i def enjoy catching-up for a beer with you on my next visit to Albequerkie..

          oh wait, i meant Alberkuirky ..or Albakirkie?

          (darn it!! ..can we jus meet at the Pink Adobe for some scrumptulous enchiladas, Tim?)

          ( ,,i mean, at least Santa-Fay is place-name that i can definitely spell correctly, tbh.. )

          ( ..fact! 🙂 )

    • I’ll post two variants after the coming holiday.
      It will show how the poem narrows the location to a specific spot without guessing at wwwh, but with a drop of imagination (which is more phrasing than anything).
      Geography understanding needed, which is a nice way of saying you need to know a lot.
      After 3 years of playing canasta I narrowed down to two possibles and a longshot… and the long shot seems the most probably but have to wait on that since it’s too late to go.

    • Anons – are you quietly implying that your first two possibles didn’t quite work to plan, or.. ?

      btw, watch out for those Motel 8’s – apparently randawg knows a guy whose cousin (Jimmy?) never returned from one, once

      ( ..fact! 🙂 )

      • Hobbit, Im implying they’re too obvious is all, but wont know till I go.
        I’d rather hitch hike in a mini skirt through Saudi than stay at a motel 8… at least I’d be safer.

        • Anon;

          I have stayed at a Super 8 on most of my 15 excursions – very nice couple runs it. VERY clean and nice and SAFE – Good breakfast too.
          JDA

          • Great, now I have to solve at which location warm breakfasts halt, oye.
            But I did Google it, there is one at one location but think I’ll just camp with some mre’s and the grizzlies to be safe.
            Again, they’re plausible and posting to show there is other possibilities than what seems people are going to the same areas time and time again.

          • Good morning or good afternoon, JDA, here I was reading TTOTC, and by chance I was looking for some words said in the poem for the puzzle, I think you or any other hunter would know what, I noticed a relation of your collection, (beaded Indian loafers , Books painted on the front (front), reeds, ancient Egyptian jewelry, arrowhead, pocket knife and antiques of all kinds.
            This section is before cancer.
            For me it seems to mention the Indian museum, the words in the poem are found in TTOTC.
            To understand the poem you will have to read the TTOTC poem and return to TTOTC again only so you can find the subtle tips and part of the puzzle.
            I hope it may have helped .

        • Oh no!! Sounds like you’re heading to my solve, I guess I better get on the road fast lol.would you at least tell us what state you’re heading to.

      • his name was Jimmy Onna…he was searching for a warm shower…or something like that. The story is vague and becomes more so every day that goes by….

        • ..which has nothing to do with his massive life insurance policy either, and was just coincidental that poor Jimmy jus happened to sign it mere hours before his untimely disappearance from Motel 6, just for the record (..right ken?)

          nope – def nothing suspicious about that at all
          😛

    • Hi charlie.

      I’d post my solution if I knew that no one would confiscate it for their own benefit….but we all know that with the thousands upon thousands of searcher actively pursuing their dreams…..that would be just stupid.

      :o)

      I think I’ll keep it under wraps for now.

      • I hear you Tim, sometimes my big mouth won’t shut. I don’t mean everyone, just get a little tired of the same ol’ same ol’. Didn’t mean to disrespect anyone’s solve, just trying to say people should be a little more strict with their solutions. If you have to argue that your first clue entails a dam, well, I don’t know… Might as well argue that letters could be moved around, or you can forget the last two stanzas, just makes no sense. But, I guess I didn’t need to read in the first place…

        • Funny thing about what you said charlie, my first solution started with a dam, then FF came out and said that it wasn’t associated…so I changed it.

          Another odd thing about that…that is when I realized “the edge of civilization” was applicable….and haven’t gone another route since.

          I wonder why people don’t like that as a starting point?

          IMO – there are just too many, huh?

          Also IMO…..it shows to be the most difficult, but not impossible…thus matching another FF quite exactly.

          You decide….

        • Hey Charlie, obviously anyone using a dam for wwwh is not on the correct path if we are going to listen to Forrest as I’m pretty sure that’s the only thing that makes sense. I’m not sure if your post is in response to my original question or not but I have a scenario I would like you to consider.. suppose you have a Creek named warm water Creek and this Creek runs into warm water lake , which is a lake that was formed due to a dam being built across warm water Creek..the overflow or spillway is still warm water Creek which continues to travel a mile or two or ten or whatever until it ends into cold water river.where does warm water halt?? So do you exclude all of this water because there is a dam in the mix?? I think there could be scenarios where warm water halt and there is a dam in close proximity but not what you would consider your starting point and you could still be on the winning solve.. Forrest tells us that wwwh is not a dam but in this situation warm water doesn’t halt at the dam but at the river.. I think some deep thinking will keep alot of options open and just as many more closed..jmo.

          • I just said that the first clue is not a dam. Oh, I believe a dam is involved somewhere in your path, just not the start. Here’s a scenario/question, Hearst lake is at a high elevation, it was once occupied by a dam. The run-off goes into lower Hearst lake(Frog lake) and onward into a canyon. There is another waterway close by named Warm Spring creek. The Warm Spring creek doesn’t stop, neither does the run-off. Nearby is a hardware store that was once a train station. All this is at a place that was once an active geyser system but now dormant. Since all these flow together, does the once dam at the lake discount all of it? To me, since you don’t start at the lake, it doesn’t natter. Now, if the starting point was the lake, then I think I have a problem.
            The thing is, he said the first clue is line 5. Can you get all that from line 5? Of course not. So, the bigger picture is, how do we solve for the clues? By solving the entire poem. Trying to pinpoint on one clue is futile, imo, when I believe it takes so much info to solve and actually know that you have solved one clue.
            Like the blaze, it doesn’t seem that the solve for the blaze is in the poem. Possibly what you are looking for is, the marvel gaze. I think the only way to know the blaze is by a coordinate, because if you don’t know it, you’ll walk right on by it.

          • Charlie,
            I agree with the assumption ~” So, the bigger picture is, how do we solve for the clues? By solving the entire poem. Trying to pinpoint on one clue is futile, imo,…”

            With most that has been mentioned over the last seven years, The fact that clues have been deciphered but not known or understood doesn’t ring a bell to my thoughts that this is a challenge of clue to clue to clue to… But understanding what fenn meant by the “big picture”

            “There are a few words in the poem that are not useful in finding the treasure Phil, but it is risky to discount any of them. You over simplify the clues. There are many places in the Rocky Mountains where warm waters halt, and nearly all of them are north of Santa Fe. Look at the big picture, there are no short cuts. f ”
            “The most common mistake that I see searchers make is that they underestimate the importance of the first clue. If you don’t have that one nailed down you might as well stay home and play Canasta.” f

            “…I cannot imagine anyone finding the treasure without first identifying the starting point, although many seem to be preoccupied with later clues. To me that’s just expensive folly. f ”

            Which seems to indicated… decipher the first clue and you’re Golden, right? However, we have this comment that is cemented in my head;

            “I’m not flippant about this. It’s not something somebody is going to be able to do on spring break or a Sunday afternoon picnic. I’m looking a hundred years down the road, maybe a thousand years down the road. People don’t understand that.”

            What is it we don’t understand? My first thoughts go to the “big picture” which I can only assume means the poem and its full understanding… I mean searcher have told fenn where they have been and there process and that is how he knows they deciphered the first couple of clues…. but they didn’t know something and walked right by everything. Yep something is missing… something we’re all apparently missing.

            The big picture?
            That, important possibility?
            What is it we have to plan and observe for?

            There’s a whole lot of thinking going on… more analyzing of the poem going on, than healthcare reform. But there seems to be little about planning and observing… well, imo anyways.

          • Hi Seeker.

            You know I won’t say my starting point any more than “the edge of civilization”, but I will say that…..TTOTC…..in its entirety……and IMO – is a hint, in itself. Does it require many reads? I don’t think so….because I read it only a couple of times within my team’s gatherings, took some pictures of the pictures and managed to start somewhere FF was familiar with…just like everyone may have….and I can say that there are many.

            Soooooo…..where do you think FF begins with directions?

            Have you asked yourself that question directly, and physically answered it in some manner? IMO – it is where you will find a starting point. You won’t disappoint uourself, only if you let yourself be disappointed.

            But….just because you start, you will eventually have to move to a BOTG strategy in order to really understand the poem and what is at the end.

            Be the chest.

            Fenn did this with BOTG….I think we need to do as well.

            My next trip I make will strictly be a BOTG effort….because altough i realize that one can get to the end location by driving – it will not afford one to physically look at the sides of the road for a specific blaze…..even at 2-3 mph….it is way to fast to identify anything.

            Walk along the designated trail is the only thing I think will give the best results.

            Good luck sir.

          • Charlie and Seeker. It may be that we need to figure out what each clue means on it’s own, first. Then, consider the individual clue solutions as a group in order to determine a small area in the Rocky Mountains that fits the clues as a whole.

          • Tom,
            That seems to be the status quo… Hence, most believe all the clues pertain to stanzas 2 3 4 only. Ok… why the other 1/2 of the poem?

            What information within the poem makes that connection to, as you put it~ “…Then, consider the individual clue solutions as a group in order to determine a small area in the Rocky Mountains that fits the clues as a whole.”

            While there have been many good thoughts to what clues could refer to… and some not so much… It’s still interesting to think that clues are being deciphered yet, not known. [as many as the first four, possibly]. with “many,” “several” “more than a few” searchers figuring out the first couple of clues. And I hate repeating this… but many of them walked right by the remaining clues and the chest… What is missing from the equation of “nailing down the first clue”?

            If I understand Charlie correctly… we might need to get the gist of the poem in its totality before understand clue references. And if so… I would think the other stanzas should help with that as a whole.

            Just different perspectives…

          • Seeker I believe the within 200ft and walked right past the other clues is smoke screen and that the within 500ft is possibly accurate.
            To reconcile searchers with 200ft you have to solve two clues which puts you closer 300ft than other people.
            Clue A is a road or trail or stream, whatever… something where people can go without issues. This spot has to be wwwh as well.
            Clue B then must be 300 ft from point A where people wouldn’t go.
            So which of the following could be used to seperate thr searchers from people from being at wwwh?
            1 take it in the canyon
            2 not far but too far to walk
            3 home of brown

            If 1 or 2 is the 2nd then why wouldn’t people be going there too?
            If 3 then why does no one else figure out what it is precisely and these 2 mystery people can’t figure out this hard poem 6 years later?

          • It seems like to me that people got HOB and didn’t get no place for the meek. FF said they stopped and walked right by it. Could they have put in or started walking at the right spot , which is what FF meant by “stopped” , and then just walked the wrong direction, away from no place for the meek.

          • Seeker. I put forth the clues-as-a-whole approach as one possibility. My personal opinion is that the first stanza contains the key to finding where warm waters halt. And that key, I believe is “riches new and old”.

          • Tom,
            I guess riches new and old could be a word that is key… but what’s the word? You don’t have to say it…just t-y-p-e it so no one else knows.

          • Seeker, and there is always the, cannot know you have the first clue correct until you have the chest. And, what do we make of possibly 4 clues but not sure. This comment tells me that it is a picture. If someone was to write out there clue answers, he wouldn’t have doubt or be unsure. Either right or wrong. Since he’s not sure, it screams someone sent a picture and described it wrong. So, someone went passed where lil Indi gets stuck, and takes a picture of a landscape but doesn’t really know what it is. If that is the case, can we truly solve the clues, or, does the poem just give us an exact spot? Whoever it was, didn’t know what they had, and that’s 4 clues in. If f wasn’t sure, I would believe that they weren’t sure. It’s surprising he didn’t say they walked right on by the other 5 clues.

            I think “observation” is a very good word. Planning important, but “observation”, essential, because people are out there not knowing what they are looking for. So yea, we could solve for the clues at home, but is that when we are at home with the chest already? It’s when we have the chest that we know the clues are correct, no chest no clues. Solved/guessed yes, knowing, possible no.

            So, that raises a very important question, not can the clues be solved from home, of course, but can they be understood? If it takes the chest to understand, then a lot of people are wasting their time trying to solve clues.

  42. Well wish me luck, I strongly believe I have solved the 1st 7 1/2 clues with 5 hints fitting in, the last 1 1/2 clues will be for my team to discover, 16 day’s it took me, but the way it all fits, is so simple, just waiting for my team to wake and get my email and go. lets call it rookie luck, if it doesn’t pan out I will let read what I figured out and im sure you will see why I gotten so excited!!!!!

    • sincere best o’ Scotish luck, buz – i was once where you are now, in that magic mood ..and was funner than fun, bar none 🙂

      “Whit’s fur ye’ll no go past ye.”
      Translation: What ever will be, will be. The future’s not ours to see.

      now..”Heid doon arse up!”
      Translation: now.. Get on with it! 🙂

    • “blank” poster….good luck to you.

      I also think a team has a better chance at a solve.

      Be safe out there.

      • I’ve got a solve for someone to check out. Won’t be able to go Myself. Health problems and Wife’s not a fennatic

    • Hey Buz. How was your first day? I have no idea where you are, but your morning posts were very interesting!

      • Well Franklin i’m at home I have a team doing the work in the field, I will be in for spinal surgery in five days!

        • Good luck with your surgery. I am looking to the same in the fall, followed by 2 knee replacements in early 2018.

          Godspeed,

          Windy City

  43. here is another place – that you could say would pass for wwwh- and that’s where the warm water from the rio chama meets with the freezing water of the rio grande jmo

  44. CH, since up above you brought up the subject of “pillowed down and scented in,” I’d thought I’d explain the relevance of that line from TTOTC. (I’ve posted about this somewhere on Dal’s site earlier this year, but would take too long to find it.)

    What Forrest has done with this line (as he has done in MANY, MANY instances) is reverse it. It comes from Alan Seeger’s “I Have a Rendezvous with Death,” where the original line was “Pillowed in silk and scented down.” The poem was a favorite of JFK’s. Seeger was also a classmate of T.S. Eliot’s at Harvard. The challenge for searchers is figuring out what Forrest’s purpose is for all these instances of swapped words, reversed lyrics, mixed up book titles, and quotes that say the opposite of what they’re supposed to say.

    • Zap, I agree with you completely. To me, all of F’s slight misstatements are all examples which show just how intelligent and precise his words really are. I also believe that the stanza in the poem “I Have a Rendevous with Death” talks about WHERE it is best to be – with the one you love dearly. For my solution, ALL of the steps along the path to the treasure symbolically refer to people, things, parts of F’s life that he loves. For me, the hiding place is symbolic that “Peggy was there, somewhere waiting for” F. The sentence before the poem says he “wrote a poem containing nine clues that if followed precisely, will lead to the end of my rainbow and the treasure.” I think all of his clues take us on a journey of F’s rainbow.

    • Zap and CH,

      I am of the opinion when Forrest says something that is out of place (think CSI), a very subtle hint could be present and I don’t discount any of them. Misspelled words, book and other title changes, incorrect quotes, Fred vs Ferd in SB 166, etc..

      In the case here, we’re talking about changing “silk” to “down”.

      In my 9 August post above I mentioned that canyon down might be referring to a canyon in the Rockies like the Feather River Canyon in N. California., my obvious connection being feather = down.

      Now we have “pillowed down”, again a possible connection to feathers. Is he hinting to us what his use of “down” means in the poem. IMO, I think yes.

      But, if there is a hint, it could also be associated with other words in Seeger’s poem. Nigh for example. “Pulse nigh to pulse…” sounds like near to me. So perhaps nigh has nothing to do with left.

      More things to ponder.

      Pinatubocharlie

    • nice poem research and ref. Zapster – he def expresses a loyalty to his word/honour that seems all too rare in our modern era.

      and given that Alan died at 28, i assume he did indeed fall upon some flaming town at midnight, or similar circumstances, sadly 🙁

    • Pinatubocharlie – i missed your comment yest, sorry

      yes, i believe “feather down” is a valid interp, and i also followed that train of thought a while back. But places like Goose/Duck canyon etc are found south of Santa Fe, or Feather canyon in CA – i just couldn’t seem to find a canyon that hinted at a eureka moment unfortunately, but never ruled it out either

      and although one poem reference (re: nigh etc) may certainly be relevant to another different poem (as Zap has suggested), i also realise how many rabbit-holes that concept creates, and how deep each hole might be

      so i’m diligently tip-toeing through the tulips whilst cautiously avoiding the lure of those deep dark voids of literature and other complicated stuff, as much as possible

      ..thanks in part to my obvious commitment phobia 🙂

      • CH-
        Maybe you were not looking in the right state…
        In WY there is a Goose Lake right next to Feather Lake…with copse of pine .., both near a very warm river mentioned in Forrest’s memoir….Both at about 7,200ft elevation….coincidence??? You be the judge.

      • ” The answers I already know”…. could be a spelling error that any kid would make… a-n-s-e-r…. without the W… is a goose genus. Gives the phrase new meaning doesn’t it?

          • Yes, of course.. I recommend it. Imagination flows in & out like bats & butterflies. I am not meek, I even cross the street by myself.

          • pdenver – i found this earlier, but hesitated..

            “we can always leave the doors open,
            we can always make one more step,
            make one more unanticipated exploration

            ‘openness’ is always sensitive to what is there, always responsive to the surroundings, always according with the environment and with the context”
            – Zhuangzi

            (OS2 – Bravo!! 🙂 )

        • clever idea and great lateral thinking, OS2

          but i’m def with pdenver on that 🙂

        • Hi OS2….I would have never thought of it that way, but good thinking.

          Here is the habitat of the genus.
          http://animaldiversity.org/accounts/Anser_caerulescens/#habitat

          Habitat

          The breeding grounds of Anser caerulescens consist of low grassy tundra with flat basins within 10 km of lakes, rivers, flood plains, or seas. Some choose rockier terrain near grassy wet tundra and flat marshy areas protected from the north by mountains. Overall they prefer coastal lagoons, marshes, tidal flats, and estuaries, but have been known to take advantage of prairies and agricultural lands. (Ehrlich, et al., 1988)
          Habitat Regions:
          temperate ;
          polar ;
          terrestrial
          Terrestrial Biomes:
          tundra ;
          savanna or grassland
          Wetlands:
          marsh
          Other Habitat Features:
          agricultural ;
          estuarine

          …seems like it fits the Rockies nicely….

          Thanks for posting.

          • Wow, I am always impressed by the detail of research you guys get into. TMI for me. I was thinking of a Goose creek or Goose lake. Thx Zoso.

          • Hey OS2….LOL….

            Turn over every possible obstacle…you never know what kind of rabbit hole you’ll find.

            :o)

            Good luck to you.

      • No worries CH. Perhaps it’s just me, but it seems there’s a big increase in posts over the past few weeks making it very hard for me to stay up with it all as I normally read the blogs in the mornings only mostly this time of year, and work/play/exercise outside the rest of the time.

        Regarding feathers and down, I just wanted to offer up the possibility for folks to consider. I don’t have a good example to throw out there at this time, but will post one if/when I find one.

        An before I forget, congrats to Emirates Team NZ for winning the America’s Cup. Oracle’s showing was pathetic and you guys deserved the win. My brother lived in Auckland for several years but we never had the time to go for a visit. So we might use the America’s Cup defense as an excuse to get to your beautiful country. I just hope they change the rules a little so there’s more competition as the foiling boats are so very, very expensive.

        Take care………Pinatubocharlie

        • you’re right PC, traffic’s been abit LA-style of late. for e.g. i’ve read everything from Hepburn to Haggis to Motel 8 today alone ..tsk tsk 🙁
          ( .i mean, what’s the world coming to… Mindy?!)

          and yes (re: possibles) i also believe any solve within the rules could be valid, whichever one that may be – sorta reminds me of that old game with the padded hammer, where ya wait for the mouse to pop outa one of the many dark holes… except someone forgot to tell the mouse 🙂

          and sincere thanks for your AC congrats, infact all us kiwi’s took turns sanding down the hull on weekends.. so was def a sunny-Bermuda win

          to be honest tho, it was just some old boat we had lying out the back, so we whacked a skate-board on the keel and got unusually lucky, it seems

          ( ..but shhh – don’t tell Dennis Conner!! 🙁 )

    • Dal – yeah, i vaguely remember finding Goose/Duck lakes in WY, was about 10months ago, after my YSP adventure.

      but trying to substitute ‘canyon down’ with a lake just felt like mild force-fitting to a degree, and besides that i didn’t have a likely wwwh, HoB or ‘meek’ candidate either – nothing seemed to work

      i also remember being distracted by Sinks canyon (Lander) which felt more ‘eureka’ to me. near Thermopolis, end of the NW Pacific railway line etc – still a pretty good candidate imho

      but secretly i like Montana the most, solely for her landscapes

      (..do you think Forrest would mind quickly moving it there, if it’s not there currently?)

      (..i’m happy to help him with transport, motel 6 bookings, etc.. )
      🙂

      • Hobbit, If any place where the TC could have been found and not said would be there. It seems the clues, aberations, poem all points there. Without knowing anything about the area. Unfortunately theyre also spots that could be stumbled upon without solving the poem.

  45. Charlie, Tim, all:
    We know that the correct interpretation of the line BIWWWH has been common to “more than several” of the solutions that Forrest has read by email or the blogs, etc. I would wager that any of us who have focused on the hunt enough to have read this blog through have seen the correct solution to WWWH…many of us have probably considered the correct solution… and some of us may have used or intend to use the correct solution to this line in a solve. Following this line of thinking I believe that we could fairly quickly generate a list of highly ranked WWWH locations which would include one that is correct….here’s one that I’ve used and a few that I’ve heard of others using:

    Canyon/falls area of Yellowstone
    Madison Junction
    Ojo Caliente
    Boiling Springs
    Vietnam Veterans Memorial in Angel Fire

      • I do like the boiling river. I don’t know if I like it for the poem but who knows. Sitting in the Gardiner next to where the boiling river feeds is very relaxing after a long day hiking. Don’t ever try to cross the Gardiner there though. My son and I fished it and decided that was a good place to cross because there is a nice path to walk back on the other side. Current is a lot stronger than it looks and we were lucky to make it. I think everyone sitting there soaking thought we were crazy.

      • Compared to most of YNP, the Boiling River area is pretty ugly. Virtually no trees. It’s practically a desert. Hard to smell pine trees in such a place. It’s one of those places that seems to fit a few clues, and looks good on a map, but when you get there you realize there’s no way Forrest would think this place was special compared to all the other places he’s raved about.

        • Yes, good point, Lady V. But I think the Boiling River is quite a ways from scenery that I would consider “Fenn-worthy”, and so TFTW may be quite far indeed if someone wants to use BR as WWWH.

    • DWRock: in my opinion, it’s none of those places. No one on this blog has named what I believe to be the correct WWWH, as far as I know, and I’m thankful for that. 🙂

      • My point is that if you think your WWWH is original… or even a step back -if you think it hasn’t been mentioned on the blog… then it is probably wrong.

      • Of course Forrest has read a lot more solves than are posted here… but I am compelled to assume that at least the first clue has been correctly interpreted on the blog.

        • I’m sure it has DW but just like the people that told FF the first few clues, which were right, we have no way of knowing.

        • Hi DWRock — in my opinion, no — the first clue has never been correctly posted here. I think the folks that have “nailed down” that first clue are very, very sure it’s right, so why would they share it with the world on a public blog? The WWWH’s I’ve seen vary from WAGs to reasonable possibilities. But none of them have fallen into the category of “YES! Of course that’s it!” If/when that bombshell is dropped, there will be a lot of shifting to the correct state, but I’m also pretty convinced (based on human nature) that there will be plenty of others that say “Bah. My solution is better.”

          • One of my wwwh is the puter, another is Apgar Park at GNP, remember wwwh is only the beginning of FF’s very ‘big’ picture. He did say think BIG, it could start there and end up by YNP or Cody, all along his fishing car trip scrimmages. Lol he did say he walked how mnay miles to Bozeman? I think 13 miles is far and my legs are crampinh by then. All in my own skewed opinion of course.

  46. 32 degrees latitude, Rio Grand at New Mexico Texas and Old Mexico Ww1 For Whom the Bell Tolls and Borders where border lines are Itty Bitty 37 degrees at Colorado border line now all one needs is the correct Longitude

    TT

  47. Canasta a willow basket made of Osier. French soldiers grave epitaph 28 words. On memorial President epitaph, Mourned by all the people, 28 words, coincidence? Maybe?

    TT

    • Tom… the hunt is loaded with great coincidences and connections like Osier. Maybe yours will jell. Good Luck.

  48. Hi Dal — responding down here because the chain above is getting a bit unwieldy. I agree with you that the context and timing of Forrest’s comments are critical, and that due to unexpectedly brazen search attempts by at least a few individuals has had an impact on his safety-related comments. That said, the original wheelchair remark seems extremely restrictive. At first glance it would appear to eliminate any steep terrain (up or down), as well as rule out river, stream or even creek crossings. Yes, with help, steep terrain of modest length could probably be managed, but pushing a wheelchair across even a small, shallow creek with a rocky bottom sounds quite unreasonable. A stream or river crossing would seem to be out of the question (even if trivial for a fisherman) unless the wheelchair-bound plus wheelchair were loaded into a boat or raft and towed across.

    So given such logistics, do I take it that you do not believe any water crossing is involved in retrieving the chest?

    • Just pushing a wheelchair on a trail would be difficult. My son had to push me in one once after surgery and just going up a hill on a sidewalk is no place for the meek.

  49. Update, I have two kids on my search team, 15 and 12, they start school tomorrow, Thur. lots of bad words, kids here in Canada start after the labour day wknd. so my team will leave after school Fri. no chance I will even ask to pull the kids out. so I expect a call Sat. night or Sun aft with good news, PS I got this figured, I even figured out the (;) it is pertinent, I believe it regards direction and safety!

  50. The solution to the poem really comes down to the first clue. As Forrest has said, we have to find “where warm waters halt”. I am convinced that most of us could solve the remaining clues and find the treasure if we were given the starting place. The ones that walked by the treasure unknowingly, obviously did not know that they had actually solved the first clue, in my opinion.

    • Hi Tom.

      You wrote:
      “I am convinced that most of us could solve the remaining clues and find the treasure if we were given the starting place.”

      I think FF said something like that too, when he stated that – whomever can find the blaze should be able to find the treasure. How factual is that? I’m on board!

      I’ve gone out twice now….but I am now focussing my search on the blaze – what it entails, what could it be, where would be a good placement, etc….I think I have figured out all the clues up to this point – which includes the area to target a search.

      But, as I stated in a previous post, this now requires a firm BOTG effort.

      I’m getting closer….*smiles*…..just have to get back out there again.

      Good luck to you.

    • I’m going to have to disagree. I believe the subsequent clues are likely as difficult as the first. I believe even if the first clue were released for all to see it might still take years for anyone to conceivably reach the end. All in my humble opinion of course. If it were easy though why would the ones who already provided Forrest the first two or more clues be unable to retrieve it? Perhaps one day we will know the answer but until then I am thankful just having been a player in such a mind blowing game! Thank you Forrest for the adventure of a lifetime!

      • The ones who correctly gave Forrest the first two clues didn’t know they were right. Forrest does not confirm clue solutions. If they were really convinced they were right, they would have continued to the treasure, in my opinion.

        • That may be true but that still leaves the one who got four clues though… what are they doing? And what has kept them from reaching the end?

          • The four clue person didn’t know they were correct either. It’s the same thing.

          • Hi Dampened.

            Not to toot my own horn, but I think my team was in that “group” he seems to reference….but we were unable to complete the task at hand, because we hadn’t found the blaze on those trips.

            Does that mean that I am “lost”? No it doesn’t, because I can safely say that I think I have figured out the clues though “heavy loads and water high.”

            Does that make my general solve any more accurate than yours?…No it doesn’t. It just happens to be those clues fit nicely into my solve, after I discovered a very viable WWWH.

            In truth….I’ve emailed FF a couple of times with “some” details on numerous things, including the “Double Omegas” and what I think they mean….but like others, I have never rcvd any response back from F.

            I understood that he wouldn’t, but kept it in the back of mind – that remote chance he would. But of course….that was no luck…..BUT…..hopefully it gave Forrest some solice that someone may find it sooner than later…..as he has stated within recent months.

            One needs to be “out of the box”, to see what’s inside the box completely.

            Use your imagination and by all means…..introduce yourself to remote viewing….You never know….you maybe one that can achieve success with that technique.

            :o)

            Good luck to you…..but most importantly…..”be the chest.”

            :o)

            My next effort will focus on the blaze.

            Good luck to you.

          • I thought he said the first two clues have been figured out, when did it change to four or am I misunderstanding the post? Any help with that would be lovely, thank you! -B

  51. Well anyway, Buzz has it all figured out. His team of students will be bringing the treasure out in a day or 2, and this will end.

    Or not ……

  52. Seeker. You said: “I guess riches new and old could be a word that is key… but what’s the word? You don’t have to say it…just t-y-p-e it so no one else knows.”

    Forrest said that we have to find where warm waters halt. So, to me, the “key” word in the poem has to be something that will guide us to that location. I have to say that I am not sure what that word is. The words that are most important to me, in reaching my solution that I believe is correct, are “warm”, “Brown”, and “meek”.

    • the key is in line 9. Read from right to left. First 5 letters. Forrest Fenn, the word that is key is key, the key is Forrest Fenn. Guess this should be in the key word section. From what I get, it’s 5 degrees on 8/22. Sun’s elevation and date.

    • Let me amend that. My “key” for the poem is native Americans (I know that’s two words). Forrest has put much effort into preserving things made by native Americans and I believe that is THE key to solving the poem.

      • Native American lore, the difference between knowlege and wisdom: You may own a horse, this is like knowledge, but, can you ride the horse?, that is wisdom.

        Knowledge is the accumulation of facts and information. Wisdom is the synthesis of knowledge and experiences into insights that deepen one’s understanding of relationships and the meaning of life. In other words, knowledge is a tool, and wisdom is the craft in which the tool is used.

        Let’s coin a new phrase. You can’t have a “correct solve” unless you can knowingly go to within several steps of the treasure chest. Otherwise you have a “general solve.” What do you think? f
        Something in the poem will tell us exactly where Indulgence is.

        • The quotes is from MW’s Periodic Words. I like the new phrase, but find it more interesting that he felt the need to coin it in the first place. Unless, as you say, he’s hinting something in the poem tells you exactly where to go, and you’ll knowingly know you’re heading there before you begin botg.

        • Tom T,
          I agree with your statement, “Something in the poem will tell us exactly where indulgence is.”, or in my opinion at least get us started on the right course. If I’m not mistaken, FF said originally that all you need is the poem and a good map, or something thereabouts (please correct me if I’m wrong). With that said, if those are the only two objects you would need to find the treasure, then it would stand to reason that somewhere buried in the poem are answers, otherwise it would be no more than random guessing. I believe that kind of plays into your correct or general solve statement. I think the further proof of that is when Jenny Kile asked FF the question about the little girl in India and FF said something to the effect that she wouldn’t be able to get past the first two clues. I would take this to mean that the answers to the first two clues are in the poem, the rest needs to be figured out through research and BOTG. Thoughts?
          (please keep in mind, these are my opinions and not intended to be matter of fact)

          TheSleepyHollowBard

          • I wonder that if someone was able to think really hard about this ie “a deep thinker” and all they have is a poem and a map, that they can find it. How many people have thought really hard about this poem? Hundreds? Thousands? Surely having the life experiences of the author would make it much easier. Does it seem plausible it would be hard for FF to know for sure if it is possible for someone that does not have those same life experiences our has the knowledge of the location of the TC to be able to solve the poem? I know he said it would be difficult but not impossible but I wonder if his knowledge of the poem, being the author, and knowledge of the location of the TC can skew an opinion on what is and isn’t possible?

          • Aaron,

            I have had similiar thoughts. Could f be too close to it all? I think that is a distinct possibility. Consider for example the assembly instructions you get to put together that thing-a-ma-jig you just bought that is made in China. Did it go together like they said, or did you need to improvise?

            In college one of the required courses I had to take was specification writing. One day the instructor Brought in a toy or something simple but I can’t remember what it was and then had each one of us write the instructions to assemble it. The next day he had us exchange instructions with a classmate who would then follow your instructions.

            As I recall, almost every student skipped at least one important step in their instructions, and the primary reason was that they were too close to the subject, or you took a step as obvious that didn’t need to be specified.

            I’m not saying that’s the case here with f, but it is a possibility.

            Pinatubocharlie

          • Aaron;

            You bring up an interesting point, but I am sure that it is possible. It has taken me 20 months,and 14 trips to one general location, but I honestly am confident that the search will not continue past September. Will I have to eat my words?

            Possibly, but I am confident enough in my solve – at last – that I feel my team will be able to go directly to where it is secreted, and bring her home. No cold mountain for Indulgence this winter!

            But, as I said, I could be wrong, I have been wrong before. … 14 times – JDA

          • There is always a chance of finding it JDA, though also a chance at eating your words. Good luck to your team and yourself on your recovery.

          • Hi Aaron: that is the puzzle maker’s curse — the impossibility of divorcing one’s own prejudices and knowledge while assessing the solvability of your puzzle. It is easy to make an unsolvable challenge; it is equally easy to make a trivial challenge. The Goldilocks problem of making a puzzle that is just ~barely~ solvable is quite hard.

            But I think we can at least rule out the trivial case!

          • I agree, how does one know if it is barely solvable if they know the answers without testing it on someone who lacks the same knowledge as him. I feel like we are all test dummies out to determine the solvability of this poem. Yes I just made up the word solvability.

            I remember when I read about FF burying the bronze balls and thinking nobody is ever going to find these things. Perhaps hundreds of years down the road when we are getting short on land and homes are being built on what was once a forest they will get dug up. Maybe that is what it will take to find the TC. If YS stays protected and it is there then maybe never.

            I do appreciate this chase and it has been fun hiking around and seeing new things. That seems like what it is about more than actually finding it. We still try though!

      • What is the puzzle game rule?
        Every game has a rule, this one does not have, there simply is 2 rules or more, care, wisdom, map and FF tips on how to play.

      • I don’t think the keyword unlocks…I think its like a keystone, it locks all the other stones together. Without it they all fall apart…. my keyword is geography.

      • “A little of me is also in the box”. A word that is key is key. The key is Forrest Fenn. This whole thing is about him by the way. Maybe if he wrote some memoirs on being a native American I could believe that, but since it’s his memoirs, I’d bet it’s about him.

        • The latter part of Fenn’s life has been centered on native Americans, from his art gallery to his purchase and excavation of land.

          • Tom B;

            I seem to be picking on you, but I am not.
            You say, “The latter part of Fenn’s life has been centered on native Americans, from his art gallery to his purchase and excavation of land. So? Actually his fascination with Native Americans goes back to his childhood.
            But SO? What is there in the poem that relates to Native Americans? Are you saying that Indulgence is on Native American land? The one place that would cause the most legal problems?

            How is Forrest’s love of Native American culture reflected in the poem? I would be happy to hear it.

            “If you are BRAVE…” is Forrest referring to a Native American BRAVE?
            If so, in what way? “If you are a Native American brave and in the wood, I give you title to the gold.” (sic) How does this help? Just askin’ JDA

          • JDA. I don’t want to give too much away, so I will just say you might be onto something.

          • JDA. By the way, I don’t think you are picking on me. I enjoy the challenges you present. I’ve devoted a lot of thought to the clues in the poem and tried to consider all scenarios. What is really good about Dal’s site is the diversity of opinions.

          • Glad you do not think I am picking on you. Good luck with your search – KEEP THINKIN’ JDA

    • So…. meek to me is not timid, but sheep. Whenever meek is mentioned in the Blble it refers to the “sheep” of His pasture. Alot of pastures have animals and are surrounded by trees. Lol,..baa, baa, black sheep, have you any wool??

      • It’s also childlike. Maybe it’s the third clue since lil Indi cannot get passed.

        • Gentle as a lamb bold as a lion. Lion creek Montana? Sheepeater canyon? Neither spot, and I am sure more, would be no place for a lamb which is for sure meek.

  53. What I meant by not linear was that the Clues are not line upon line but rather pinwheel instead….ff is an outside the box kind of guy.
    Why is it that we order a round pizza in a square box and it’s cut into triangles…solve that mystery and you can find any thing hidden.

    • A box is easier to fold from being laid flat.
      The natural state of spinning dough makes a circle so pizza is round.
      To slice the pizza where each piece has a crust handle is a straight line.
      Coincidence?

    • So a hungry pizza delivery guy can ingeniously take a triangle piece out and eat it while repositioning the remaining triangles so it looked like a whole circle.

    • Hi Boaz…..thanks for posting.

      You wrote:
      “….ff is an outside the box kind of guy.

      ———————–
      “ff is an outside the box kind of guy.”
      – Then why do many want us searchers to get back into the box?

      ———————–

      “Why is it that we order a round pizza in a square box and it’s cut into triangles…solve that mystery and you can find any thing hidden.”
      – From a person with Pizza shoppe experience…..boxes are initially cut to form squares, unless you are Dominos. :o)
      – It is easier to form the square than another shape
      – Pizzas are also cuit into squares – Littel Caeser’s Deep! Deep! is a great example
      – The triangles are easier for round pies. Normally you won’t see a square pizza cut into triangles.

      ———————–

      Am I really any closer to the trove, knowing these details? Nope, but I am good a finding lost things around my house!

      :o)

  54. Meek, IMO,… (Praus), is defined as possessing a calming strength from within. Not ‘weak,’ but a power of sorts.

    SL

  55. Hello All!
    First time poster.

    As i read thru this thread and many other threads it would appear that most people are looking in Yellowstone, buy why? Hasn’t it been stated that it’s illegal to hide the treasure in a National Park, or at least remove it from a National Park? Secondly, hasn’t FF been stated as saying he hasn’t been back in the area since before he hid the treasure?

    My thoughts on WWWH:
    1. Tears – Warm is sometimes used to express an emotion which could cause tears – Bowl of Tears?
    2. Clouds – Warm water evaporates and halts in the clouds before coming back down in the form of rain – Mt. Cumulus?

    • Fenn was referring to the west Yellowstone location when he was young, not the entire area.

    • David—-

      I like your thoughts on “tears” and “clouds”–have though about both of those quite a bit actually. One thing that has never escaped me is “The Trail of Tears” which ends in Oklahoma I believe. So where the Trail of tears ends is where we should begin.

      Of course, this is looking at the poem covering a much larger area—not localized. But interesting though.

      • Just to expand a bit. I have a couple of different ways of looking at the poem. In the larger take WWH is in Oklahoma. “From there it’s no place for the meek” is when you take off in an airplane.
        “Waters High” are clouds. You’ll need to look “quickly down” from the airplane once you spot “the blaze”. Google maps allows us to simulate that view from the aircraft.

        So, WWH isn’t even IN the Rockies. It is just where you begin the Chase. This is just one way of looking at it of course. There are MANY takes on the poem and WWH.

    • apryl do you like this area because molly brown john its a beautiful area filled with history how about the casinos in black halk you been there yet

  56. hear me all; what if told you that I was going to paint a picture, but use a poem to illustrate it because you cannot see it except in your imagination and if you move away and look at the “big picture” it’s image is an imaginary map with an X on it, or a cross-hairs.

    Now understand I am no artist and definately not a poet. However recently I re-read “The Picture (Portrait) of Dorian Gray” by Oscar Wilde, also saw 1945 movie same name, inspired imagination can create words worth a thousand pictures or a map worth millions, so let’s start this portrait/picture with basics like perspective, scale, dimensions, scope, color and subject? Like ff I am not a real talented artist so I’ll use the medium of impressionism and work on the rectangle shape of traditional pictures or portraits. I must use water color paints, cause their quick and easy to use and clean up. So your wife won’t yell at you.

    Basically all 4 states left in the Chase are this shape, especially Wy, Co, and NM. Now try dealing with one or two of those shapes from an architectural and impressionistic perspective, what is the scale of our (Map) picture? In my viewing of Monet, Renoir or Degas some really great Impressionist work , as you move away from their painting your imagination makes a sharper image of the conceptual subject, now who said “Look at the BIG PICTURE, there are no short cuts” now in our effort to draw using a poem we must have the “Borders” for our picture, another words focus at the first clue, the boundaries, border line, little tiny itty biddi lines of that shape, that image, in my minds eye, I must imagine it as the first geographical general clue and is a solved clue, it must be a border, a boundary in our frame of an imaginary picture frame of referrence, my first impression is the bottom line of latitude, funny I said that in 2011 and imagine that’s where Warm Waters Halt, at the 32 degrees. Texas, New Mexico, and Old Mexico border right where that Rio Bravo and no place for meek river suddenly signals HALT! From that latitude we frame the next boundary that uses those little old itty biddy lines again, it’s 348 miles (one for every day in Nam) at almost 90 degrees to the Colorado border, right where? At Imo at no place for the meek. What is DRaw ing nigh? Water Colors in Colorful Colorado. Is Brown in Fenn rainbow? OCHER is that combo, yellow and red.

    There’ll be no paddle up your creek, just heavy loads and water high. What IF’s? You’ve been wise and found the blaze, (colorful Colorado) look quickly down, imagine south or deep or both?

    What we have not imagined is the longitude, where those lines meet to form an X, or a cross, so let’s leave this extension of “Winter Thoughts” till next season, so go in peace, and a cross of peace is a good place to leave it. That is where we all meet IMO..Religion.

    Any ideas or input longitudinally would be greatly appreciated, and have I got some pics to show you all! They are:

    Terrific

    • I like what you said about using your imagination to interpret the poem map. That seems to me to be the problem, too much imagination do you think Forrest believed that would happen? He has even commented on that indirectly, but many Don’t pay attention.

    • Well… how much room would be needed to mix yellow and red yo make brown on a map? Perhaps no far, but too far to walk?

      • I’m sorry Anon, but when I had my operation a couple of days ago, they must have removed one of my two remaining (functioning) brain cells, for your post makes absolutely NO SENSE to me – sorry – JDA

        • Yes I see.
          Make yo into to, that should help clear all the confusion.

          My mother-in-law had heart surgery Tuesday. When she woke from the drugs she thought she was being kidnapped. It was hilarious talking about it afterwords.
          Anything like happen with you.

        • glad to hear you partially survived ya brain-surg. JDA – as i personally know exactly watcha mean re: only one of two brain-cells left over, tbh 🙁

          ..but thankfully we don’t share the same neuro-surgeon as TT, i reckon 🙂

  57. Anon, are you new to this blog? There is another thread For your comments, search no cents or two cents, but seriously, you never heard of Ocher several colors are combined from brown rust, red, yellow and even The color Purple.

    TT

      • A soft answer turns away wrath, great observation, you are appropriately named Boaz. Thank you.

        Wayne Dyre said, if you have the choice to be right or to be kind, always choose kind.
        TT

    • tom terrefic:Do not look for cents, this is about the wooden box of your bathroom ff, I have posted here the meaning of your bathroom, everything your ff says where it starts and the direction that the treasure is, just repair it by saying my table of the century 17 is from the coast to the (south) but its ff is facing the (west) in the mirror, its counter with sink the faucet, repair spray, is used in amazem or skylight of flowers, its penny coin box represents the treasure, Its window illuminates represents the sun, on the balcony note that it has smooth lines of granite indicating spray and wooden box, its mirror has lamps, and its door a ..

  58. good thought tom if you need to put a fire out at least have a water wagon around but its always better to be warmer then cold time has a way of teaching us that. have a good day always.everyone

  59. Hey Spallies, thank you! I have about 2200 hours in on this hunt since i koined last October. By the way, nice dog…mine has a bushy tail too!

  60. a whisper can only be heard if your close and paying attention who will take the crown maybe a flying cow i for one want to see and hear at the same time so i think the big picture is a collection of thoughts key word collection or collector whos the best and the the king id say is Mr Fenn but right now ineed to loosen my belt on my brain to figure this wwh clue out been flying around g g earth all day somewhere by the pines with a sweet smell of sage and a put in hmm this must be solvable i can chase my tail for three life times enjoying the adventure wish i was younger with a full turn must start at the begining ok one not two be safe out there leaving this friday for mt ws . just, this word boggels me along with brave bold and cold i understand have fun so i think ill work on that

  61. Here’s a question for anyone to consider.

    How close do you believe a searcher must be when at the location of WWWH?

    Standing next to it? On a road near it? At the closest point you can be near it?

    Or other Thoughts?

    • probley in it to know for sure why not have some fun when your there may be something healing about the wwh

      • I apologize Franklin – I guess I woke up cranky this AM.

        What I said is true : if you knew wwwh, you would not have had to ask – but you did, Think convergence of a small body of water – converging with a larger body of water – – – a creek merging with a big stream for instance. How close do you have to be – GE may be close enough, it probably is not necessary to see the convergence, although it is quite pretty. JDA

      • I asked this out of curiosity as I have never read anyone’s comments about proximity. I am satisfied with my location.

    • Frankin,
      IMO, as close as where the chest lays in wait.
      Q~”How much progress can be made by someone just thinking and searching the Internet from home? (Anot–her way of saying this: How many clues can only be decoded in situ?) 
      A~ FF: All of them, in theory, but not likely in practice. A searcher must go to the site to find the treasure.”

      There might be a reason to be on site [ sight ] other than just retrieving the chest.

      Fenn has used other terms such as; go right to it… And… certainty of the path beforehand. Honestly, I’m not sure if we need to physically be at all or some clues, at all… we might only need to know and understand the clues reference to understand how to follow them, and have them[clues references] ‘lead’ to the treasure.

      Fenn said he “followed” the clues when he hid the chest… But added…”… hid it before the poem was complete. (Completed?) f ”
      Did fenn have to wait for something to happen before he could complete the poem.

      • Maybe the poem would not be accurate if he completed it before he hide the chest?

        If a certain timeline needed to be included in the poem and the chest had to be hid for this timeline to be complete.

        Knowing that the ending of the poem could of been entirely different if Fenns life had been different, it could imply the ending of the poem could not be complete until his plan was put into place.

        • Two thoughts:

          1) Maybe he needed it to be a particular time of year (summer) because he always went fishing or attended a particular Board of Directors meeting at this time of year. so it would appear normal to Peggy.

          2) Maybe the “Hidey spot” needed to have certain things done to it, in preparation of receiving the treasure. – Blaze inscribed – place to “hide” Indulgence – way to camouflage where Indulgence would be hidden.

          Just thoughts – JDA

          • Hey JDA, I saw where you stated that your team was pretty confident of finding the chest this weekend. I think that’s great , good luck to you and your team.What day do you expect to find it and when will you give an update as to the outcome of your search this weekend?

        • The Count,
          That might be true if the poem relates to fenn life…completely.
          If I was clever enough to create a poem that could lead to a 10″ sq piece of land, and I wanted it to be in a place special to me [somewhere along my life time of places I have been]. The last thing I would want is to have clues referring to me on a personal level. I mean, anyone who knows me [friends and family]/ studies me searchers/ investigates me [I’ll leave that to your imagination], would have a recognizable advantage.

          Might this be why fenn calls the things from the book as “subtle” “very sublte” and “unintentional.” Tells us the tools that would help are GE or mapping, And a comprehensive knowledge of geography might help.

          Personally, I think the idea of- Finding Forrest Fenn- is a waste of time… other than his bones… [his words, not mine] Understanding the man is helpful, but I get a gut feeling the poem doesn’t really relate to fenn when it ‘comes to the clues’… just the final outcome.

          Yep, this is one of those “IMO” postings.
          Nothing to see here folks, keep it moving… no clues or hints, just thoughts.

          • I think having some background history of him helps the searcher recognize “things” in the general location that led Mr. Fenn to consider the place special to him.

  62. Boaz, My search starts In Santa Fe NM but winds up at the Colorado border at 37 degrees, the final latitude answer, IMO, so much of the Rockies are there. If the border is only 90 miles away from Santa Fe and 90 percent of the tallest Rocky Mts peaks are there, statistically it makes for a greater preponderance of evidence, all based on ff’s use of the # 90 in so many of his quotes, Olga, Skippy, postmarks, page 51 and many more citations used by him, that this search could be as simple as finding the correct latitude and longitude, as this could bring one to the X or cross of more than a “General solve”, to within a few feet.

    Has someone given a General Solve already? Find a New term “Correct Solve.” Just a few steps away.

    For the 6 years I spent in the US Amphibious Navy during the 60’s I repaired Gyroscopic Compasses and Fire control systems that used Dead reckoning (analog) systems to locate navigational coordinates as well as Loraine Beacons, targets on charts/maps etc, ask any pilot of a ship or a plane what was his “backup navigation system” used during Vietnam.

    https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Projet:Lorraine/Navigation

    Forrest IMO is using some of these coordinates to construct the X and I think it starts with Latitude 32 degrees, the evidence is Borders and Biddies start on page 9 of Thrill Book so it suggests to me he sprinkled a hint or two there, why the error of WW1 as the location of “For whom the Bell Tolls.”

    Ask any signalman of a ship or train what is the semaphore which reads red, green and black? Not rocket science, but is out on the edge of space now, called a GPS coordinate of Lat and Long.

    Each mile marker along the borders of each state, like this example of one I investigated (have photo) at or near the center of Colorado and New Mexico border.

    They are cast in bronze, shaped like circular cap sometimes embedded in concrete or drilled into stone, the one I recently located said in an arching shape around the set of cross hairs: “The Supreme Court of the United States, Colorado+New Mexico, 1868, 1926 Mile Corner, Do not disturb, penalty, do not touch. No 180+71.20 ch8.

    Does any understand a Sextant? If so on the 37 degree lat where is this?

    Can you tell me the exact elevation on Google Earth, that this marker is placed, just a hint it is over 10,000 ft. and on the border. The view is breathtaking!

    I plan to show a recon on this area in Winter Thoughts II, coming sometime this winter. Pics are unbelievable sorta like the Grand Canyon, but with trees over a hundred ft tall. Aspens that will, in September blind you in their brilliance all this from a vantage of the wood river from 1500 feet above, they are cast over and spread out like a golden fleece on the mountain tops of New Mexico and Colorado.

    TT

      • Also, for what it’s worth, Colorado, Wyoming and Utah are the only states which have boundaries defined solely by lines of latitude and longitude.

        • Sandy, you have put a spin on what was once a mystery and the Denver Post article did clarify most questions about this state line marker at 10,199′. Oddly, that location is the easiest walk I ever bushwhacked while searching for indulgence, even a little kid could do it.

          The Cumbress and Toltec train tracks are clearly visible some 500 to 600 vertical feet below this marker just above the Garfield Memorial and trainTunnel. I have videos of the train disappearing through It, still another 600 feet vertical drop to the Pinos River in the gorge bottom. My guess is 1500′ over 1000 perhaps 1200′ vertically and almost a perpendicular casum wall.

          THANKS SANDY

          TTTTT

  63. From dictionary.com: waters is “flowing water, or water moving in waves”

    The straightforward meaning of “where warm waters halt” then is the place where warm, moving water comes to a stop. Others on this site have proposed different meanings for the phrase, but this is the one I’m going with as most probable.

    • Adding an “s” to “water” does not imply that more than one waterway is involved with the clue.

      • The possible implication of plural to singular is “water high”… I mean if both words are the same in meaning or usage, you have to ask yourself why fenn didn’t write *and waters high*

        So lets play word play… IF waters mean more than one [ river, lake etc ] then the thought of water high and heavy loads could mean ‘contained’ water.
        Or fenn could be having fun and be saying RM high… but, only for medicinal purpose.

        • “Water high” may be referring to a pond, or other non-moving water. In any case, that clue is separate from “where warm waters halt” (which appears to be referring to moving water).

          • Why can’t warm mean liquid waters[all water] that halt being liquid when frozen, to mean a glacier.
            Or
            warm waters to mean the waters of a lake that halt [ stand still, no movement or advancement ] before it’s overflow [ seasonal drainage ] then the waters, take it in the canyon down… if we jump ahead, could no paddling needed mean, no water in the creek at some point in time?

            But one little question… are you sure waters and water high are separate in the field?

          • “Why can’t warm mean liquid waters[all water] that halt being liquid when frozen, to mean a glacier.”

            I agree that it could have something to do with a glacier

            “warm waters to mean the waters of a lake that halt [ stand still, no movement or advancement ] before it’s overflow [ seasonal drainage ] then the waters, take it in the canyon down… if we jump ahead, could no paddling needed mean, no water in the creek at some point in time?”

            I don’t subscribe to warm waters meaning a lake. Seems like a reach but that’s my opinion.

            “But one little question… are you sure waters and water high are separate in the field?”

            I do believe that waters and water are very different and the s was added on one and subtracted from the other for a reason.

      • I don’t agree. Waters is plural and to me indicates 2 or more sources. But then, no matter where that spot is, the other aspects mentioned in the poem must be nearby. A home of Brown, a canyon down, a blaze and a wood. My logic on this is based on research. Many choices, only one is correct.

        • Franklin. Can you quote a definition that says “waters” indicates two or more sources?

          • Tom B

            For me it is a common sense thing. Forrest is not a scientist, and he wrote it with the “s” for some reason. I am simply thinking like him, but I admit I can be wrong. Also 2 or more water courses might not be joining at the same time. All ideas including yours are valid until the final solve. Just my opinion my friend.

        • “Two or more sources…” I can not quite agree with. Involvement of more than one “water” – YES, I can agree. A smaller stream joining a larger stream or other body of water – a convergence point – I agree.

          Then, “water high” I interpret as a single water “source” – maybe Possibly a spring, or something like that – a spring that then produces a small rill or rivulet – I will go along with that. Could this rill later join a stream and converge, and they become waters? Sure – JDA

        • Franklin, FF didn’t have to be a scientist to look up definitions, which he admitted to doing. Knowing that he looked up definitions, worked on, and changed the poem for 15 years, you have to believe that the s at the end of waters means exactly what a definition would say it would. Waters is not plural for water.

    • For one, f has said to use Google for looking words up, paraphrasing- google it and see the many definitions for words we use every day…..etc…
      For two, you’re guessing that f is also interpreting it that way, and that it’s the one way f sees it, your way. Guessing at what f sees as the meaning is asking for troubles.
      Just saying, find a way to solve the poem, don’t face value this thing yet. I still say trying to solve for the individual clues is not the way to go, but what do I know?…

  64. “The person who finds the treasure will have studied the poem over and over, and thought, and analyzed and moved with confidence. Nothing about it will be accidental”. And I wish I had another treasure to hide in the Appalachians. “The little girl in India cannot get closer than the first two clues. There are many disabled people who are deeply into maps and geography, and they are having a lot of fun.” Using those two quotes tells me that WWWH can only be in a canyon that goes down in elevation toward the north if clue #2 is a location. If clue #2 is something like a direction or distance and we have two choices of which way canyon down is we would not be able to move with confidence.

      • Also curious about this. Agree with everything else that was said, but failing to see how north is deduced.

      • The Yellowstone river flows northward, going (canyon down) in elevation as it heads in a northerly direction.

      • Chris;

        Because YOU have chosen the Yellowstone River as the body of water, that you must take in the canyon down, does not make it so, therefore, you should have said that it was your OPINION that “you get a “north” direction from those statements?” … The poed does NOT say it. Just sayin’ JDA

        • C’mon JDA, Chris said ~’Using those two quotes tells me…’ ~ tells HIM or her, a thought, and idea, a theory…
          Turn off the flashing lights and siren… Chris didn’t make an illegal lane change, just chatting like everyone else.

          • You are probably right Seeker. I admit to being a bit cranky – not being able to hear much, and being in a bit of pain from my surgery – Sorry all – I will try to “Play nice” – JDA

          • JDA,
            Here’s a little something for ya to think about & chew on while you recover. I’ve been reading everyone’s comments & it has me thinking a bit. All this is just my way of thinking & to show a different way to read things, my crazy dyslexic mind. Lol Please keep in mind that these are not complete quotes but you all should know what I’m talking about.
            1. Many are talking about how far “the searchers” have been to the treasure & have been distracted by the distance…500ft, 200ft, 12 ft. I think many forgot to ask themselves what searchers & what are the searchers Mr. Fenn is talking about. Are the Search & Rescue Members, searching for gold, jewels, people, lost pets, fish, water, land, ect.. You see, I don’t believe he has said which searchers, just searchers. But this gives you an example of a different view, perspective.
            2. The part where he said, I hid the treasure before the poem was completed. Many read this as, he hid the treasure before he finished writing the poem but I read it, he could hid the treasure before you finish reading the poem. He’s telling you he hid the treasure & the remaining part of the poem tells you how to get to it. So, once you find your blaze & your blaze might be the tip of a mountain peak two states away but when you look quickly down you see a tree right in front of you but there’s a distance. The end of the he poem tells you how to safely get over to the final area.
            Thoughts, anyone?
            Good luck, -B

          • Birdie;

            Two interesting points of view. As to the first. If you are at an elementary school, and overhear a teacher saying, “The kids sure are roudy today.” I think that it is safe to say that the teacher is referring to the kids at the school where you are at.

            I think that when Forrest refers to searchers – he is referring to those that are in search of Indulgence. JMHO

            You may well be correct with #2. I just do not know. This quote has always been troubling to me.

            Thanks for the post Birdie. JDA

        • I understand what Chris is saying. If the canyon that he chose to follow is going down in elevation to the north and the water is flowing north then the poem does say it for him. His “canyon down” happens to go north.

        • I haven’t chosen anywhere along Yellowstone River as WWWH. It is not an opinion that the Yellowstone river runs in a north direction. Water does not flow up in elevation in a canyon, not an opinion either. Many rivers have areas that head in a northerly direction at different areas and in every instance that north direction could be considered canyon down because we would be going down in elevation. Colorado state hwy 131 crosses the Colorado river and the river heads north right near there, the next point the river is actually south of that spot is about 20 driving miles away.

    • What do the RM’s and Appalachians have in common?
      LOL, the little girl is from India, why not the Himalayas?
      I mean, fenn’s special place isn’t in the mountains N. of Montgomery either.

      • I have to think the little girl in India is anyone who is unable to have BOTG. FF doesn’t give any special treatment as far as clues go from what I have read and it sounds like he may feel like a person who can only use maps google earth etc has no chance of finding the TC and he would like to have one out there for people who for whatever reason cannot physically go and find this.
        The quote is interesting though because it makes me think I may as well be the little girl in India, living in Oklahoma and not likely to have BOTG. Sounds likely I will not be able to get past clue 2 either.
        If that is true it still says nothing about any clues past 3, 4 through 9 may be able to be found from home on a computer with only the one sticking point at #3 that needs a person to be there so they can proceed.

        • No Chris, Little Indy has a crappy map. Reread Jenny’s question. NO ONE can get further than solving the first two clues with just the poem and a map of the Rockies.

        • Chris – don’t be too easily cajoled into zaps rabbit holes, as nowhere in Jenny’s Q&A session was a crappy map mentioned (unless i’ve missed something) and a “map of the US Rocky Mountains” could simply vary from a USGS topo-map to a scribbled doodle on a bar-napkin

          keep in mind too, that Forrest’s primary motivation was to get people off their butts and into the ‘beautiful beyond’
          …so BOTG@#3 makes alot more philosophical sense, imho

        • Hi CH: think of Forrest as a hostile witness when questioned, but who is bound by honor not to lie. Jenny specified the map in her question: a map of the U.S. Rocky Mountains. Those mountains span over 1000 miles, so a single map covering that extent is either limited in detail or enormous in size. Any reasonable physical map size (say 8 feet or less in length) is limited in its ability to show closely spaced features. Is it not reasonable to suspect that such a map would be useless for navigation at a sub-kilometer scale? If clues 3-9 are tightly packed, is it not logical that poor Indy can do no better than solving clues 1 and 2?

        • Hi Zaps – yes, i’m definitely trying.. (to imagine Forrest being a hostile witness) but this is Jenny we’re talking about here, not Al Capone 🙂

          and yes, i agree that a reasonably scaled paper-map would be super-uber-big, although i can’t recall a “paper map” being implied either, tbh

          i travelled VN a few years back, and was surprised (& disappointed) to discover that their fibre-optic networks were much more advanced than those in my country

          as a result, i have more confidence now, that LGFI has at least 20GB/sec more than me, probably ( ..i have 5GB, currently 🙁 )

          so a detailed digi-map of the Rocky bits could just as likely be available to LGFI, as Blex is to win ‘2017 FB Doodle Champion of the World’

          ..fact! 🙂

          • “FB” meaning FennBoree festival, btw

            not to be mistaken with that old tattered FaceBook thingy, TFS!!

            (“That’s For Sure” – top secret for Fennatical eyes only tho 🙂 )

        • CH: I agree a paper map wasn’t unambiguously implied, but then again there was zero mention of a computer. Sherlock Jenny stipulated that our poor Indy had *only* the poem and a map. Jenny said nothing of a computer or a digital map, or Google maps or internet or Google Earth. The poem and A map. I think a physical map is a reasonable interpretation for the question.

      • Seeker,; I don’t recall, did ff direct the Appalachian comment to Little Indi or was it a to the general continental crowd? If it was to little Indi, it is so geographically preposterous that she could cross the Atlantic to get to the Appalachians but not cross the Mississippi to get to the Rockies, that, it suggests to me that some very clever word play is involved. Too clever for me tonight.

        • Your treasure hunt has inspired people worldwide to discover history, culture and nature, but many people, (even in the US) might be deterred because they don’t live near the Rockies or can’t afford to travel. Should they be deterred? Can a little girl in India, who speaks good English, but only has your poem and a map of the US Rocky Mountains, work out where the treasure is? And would she be confident as she solves each clue, or only confident when she has solved them all?

          I wish I had another treasure to hide in the Appalachians. The little girl in India cannot get closer than the first two clues. There are many disabled people who are deeply into maps and geography, and they are having a lot of fun.

          • Thanks Seeker. Typical ff jello. … er, ambiguity. Ill have to find a place in the refrigerator to store that.

  65. Warm water defined as ocean or sea not in frozen regions. While no ocean is in the Rockies, the only sea was the Western Interior Seaway. This warm water met with the cool streams and lakes and formed Bryce Canyon which is in Utah…but what if I is the key word?

    “I” can keep my secret where…where? Begin “where” warm waters halt. Could the starting point be Brice Canyon which is just above Durango airport in Colorado?

    I can keep my secret where – Brice not Bryce
    I can hint of riches old – twice in reference to his favorite old treasure, Fenn misspells Wetherill’s name with e instead of I
    I can hint of riches new – even a little piece of me is in the chest
    So y, not why, is it that I must go? Maybe to find where to begin IMO

    • I’ve looked into the Western Interior Seaway as well though it led me to a different starting point. I can’t really make out anything you are saying after WIS.

    • LITW – I like your substitution idea; I for Y, and E for I? That and the WIS could both be a good places to start. Perhaps though I can save you a bit of time and effort. The starting point COULD be at Brice Canyon, but I doubt it. I’ve flown over that area hundreds of times, very close to the ground in a little 180. The Florida River (pronounced Flor ee da) is barely a trickle by the airport. The “canyon down” is thru farm/ranch land, and is more like a gully or arroyo – the “canyon” isn’t continous. As you continue south, you quickly enter the Southern Ute Reservation, parts of which is actually NOT tribal land as it has been sold off to individual parties. But land ownership on the reservation is a little tricky, and all private not federal or state. Then there is HOB, and although lots of people have had the idea that HOB is Indian Land where do you go from there? I think things will dead end abruptly. Although the fishing may be good when you hit the San Juan.

      • Begin it (the search) where warm waters halt and take it (the search) in the canyon down. So I need to find a canyon down from where Brice Canyon is.
        Not far but too far to walk. A good distance but not more than 10 to 20 miles.
        Put in below the home of Brown. So I expect a waterway in the canyon below the Southern Ute Reservation.
        From there it’s (the canyon now, not the search) is no place for the meek.
        The Pinos River runs through Cemetery Canyon at the New Mexico border. FF states he had to have guts to go into a cemetery in TTOTC.
        The end is ever drawing nigh.
        The river is drawing down to where the chest is.
        There’ll be no paddle up your creek just heavy loads and water high.
        At the end of the Pinos River is the Navajo Dam, but you don’t have to go that far.
        If you’ve been wise and found the blaze.
        This is the part that stumped me, but in the picture from google maps of the canyon a bit further down stream from Cemetery Canyon the river branches into four streams which each branch back to streams creating 2 Ys, these then curve into each other making a U before heading down to the Navajo Dam. If U been Ys.
        And found the Blaze.
        This is Reese Canyon which means Fiery or Ardent…Blaze.
        Look quickly down your quest to cease.
        At the bottom of the “U” is the canyon wall, to get to a ledge of the Canyon wall at the bottom of the U you have to step into the Pinos River.
        brave and in the wood…in the Pine River.
        I went right there three days ago.
        On the canyon ledge behind some bushes is a carve out in the canyon wall. About 20″ wide x 20″ deep by 8″ high. I almost lost my breath what a spot to put the TC…I hesitated a minute and then looked only to find it empty.
        At that point I realized one of three things. The first was If the chest hasn’t been found in 7 years maybe FF is terrible at giving directions…no that wasn’t it, it was maybe the chest was there and gone. The second was finally being in the Rocky Mountain area and seeing the immensity of the search area it could be searched for til the end of time and never found. And finally…most importantly spending a couple days with my now 25 year old grown and married daughter that I don’t get to hang out with as much as I’d like, and watch her excitedly trudge into the Pinos River with her waders, on a beautiful sunny morning with the expectation of what could be was a pretty good days haul of treasures. Thanks FF, though my searching days are now over, my little girl and I certainly did experience the Thrill of the Chase.

  66. I stick to the idea that “warm waters” is warm/hot geothermal discharges, and “halt” refers geographically to the areas where they are no longer present. Travelling away from YNP in pretty much any direction qualifies. So in my interpretation, WWWH requires validation from subsequent clues. Ugh. Perhaps that is why most discount this interpretation.

    • Warm can mean many things as you know, no problem being stuck with your idea of what warm/and halt mean. If you are correct you will have a better chance, if you are wrong and search you can still have a great time. I kind of like FFs idea of someone who really needs it finding it. That idea is a close second right after me finding it, and since I am not likely to even go searching…

  67. Seeker. You asked: “But one little question… are you sure waters and water high are separate in the field?”

    “Water high” comes after home of Brown in the poem, so it has to be separate from “where warm waters halt”, unless we are circling back to the beginning.

    • * * * * * * Tom B wrote – ““Water high” comes after home of Brown in the poem, so it has to be separate from “where warm waters halt”, unless we are circling back to the beginning.” * * * * * *

      Hmmm . . . I guess arguably once you’re down “the canyon down”, that canyon could then be said to contain the creek there’s no paddle up.

      JAK3

      • Unless the “No paddle creek” joins the “Canyon Down Creek” further down the canyon. – JDA

        • Yep.

          I was just playing around out loud with the suggested idea that waters halt and the canyon down, the beginning, might be the same as water high and no-paddle-up creek, looking back once you’re downstream.

          And could be (still just playing out loud here), why searchers found the first 2 and then walked off looking for a different creek and different water.

          Meh . . . . I don’t feel like I’m buying it myself. But at least it’s different.

          JAKe

      • Maybe the water in the creek flows back to where warm waters halt. What if the road is not in the canyon down? Once you go in the canyon below the home of brown, I think you go upstream, and the water ahead of you is higher in elevation, so water high.

        I clearly see my blaze and it points to a wood. Pine and sage. Water is close by. In my selected solve area, even if I am not correct about the TC, I wouldn’t mind being buried there at the end of my days.

    • Or its all in the same location and with out one there are no other clues.
      Think of it like this.. we begin at a lake (lots of them, right?)
      The lake drainage take it on the canyon… Put in below hoB is a stand alone clue… So why can’t the waters put in below, making hoB above… Ok now we have stanza three description of a place the is of heavy loads and water high.

      Well hlawh sounds like a glacier and the melt waters and older part of the glacier created the lake… The connection point is hoB… If you knew what hoB is you’d go right to the chest. So, is hoB in the poem or only in the field?

      I’ll get back to you in 30 minutes on that….

      • I think home of Brown is the center hub. Think of flying from New York to Los Angeles by way of Dallas. New York is where warm waters halt, Dallas is home of Brown (where you get off and have a change in direction), then a shorter leg to Los Angeles (the blaze),

  68. imo that the only canyon with a creek that has water is the one that is coming out of the lake that goes to where warm water halts – canyon down is just a canyon with a road that takes you to home of brown jmo

  69. What if …
    Your wwh is OUTSIDE the canyon, at the mouth.
    By following the canyon in, you end in a box, where cold water, melted snow created the lake (that drains out the canyon to form a slow moving, sun warmed river in the valley) .
    This lake is your HOB.
    Hike around the lake, don’t be meek, you’re getting close. Don’t take the creek draining in the lake, stick by the lake–its heavy loads/water high. Keep hiking until you see your blaze!
    Imo

    • Donna I agree with every thing you said – the only thing I don’t is when you say that the lake is my HOB- I see it as when you take it in the canyon down south of the lake is where youll find HOB- every thing is below (north) of HOB imo its HOB- heavy loads waters high- the blaze – and in the wood and then the chest jmo

      • HOB – to me is more like a direction – it tells you that its as far south as you need to go – that put in below means that from there everything is north so there is no east or west or south of HOB all in my opinion

        • Got ya. You need Location, direction, distance, and description. The poem gives us all that.
          Yes, HOB, imo, is your bullseye. It’s not far from there

          Location…WWWH
          Direction…Canyon down
          Distance…not far btftw.
          Description…put in below HOB..

          • And, to continue your thought, Donna, from home of Brown;

            Direction…up the creek toward water high

            Distance…not too far to walk (presumably)

            Description…stop at the blaze and look down

          • I also like the location, direction, distance possibility. Then again sometimes I don’t. I can take WWWH as a small lake sitting somewhere that has a great view of a canyon. Soak up that view of the canyon down there! now that canyon may only be 10, 15 miles long not far but too far to walk in the Mountains.
            Looking at like this I can say I am at WWWH, I took in the canyon down, and I decided I am not going down there because it is too far.
            FF loves nature and wants more people out and enjoying it, Take it in the canyon down may mean stop and smell the roses, enjoy the moment.

  70. Upthread, dal wrote:
    “I am in accord with you in your belief that all nine clues in the poem are related to naturally occurring places and not places made by man. ”
    ——————————————————————————————————-
    I disagree. And for multiple reasons, one of which is the phrase >>> “too far to walk”.

    That poem phrase implies that some form of transportation is required other than one’s two feet. What form of transportation? An automobile, of course. As a result, some of the clues must relate to driving directions and therefore cannot be totally “naturally occurring”.

    This further implies the importance of “geographic scale”, a concept that posters here have never shown any interest in discussing.

    … a tiny, tiny area where walking among only natural features (where no place names exist on any map) … is the summation of the 9 clues?

    In that case, how could someone traveling to the Rocky Mountains from far away places (say from Florida or England or Connecticut or Mars) possibly travel to this tiny search site with any degree of … “confidence”?

    There would be no place names, no geographic benchmarks, from which to judge one’s decisions on where to start and where to search.

    The treasure hunt was engineered for everyone in the U.S., from coast to coast and border to border, not just for a few fortunate locals who don’t need to spend any amount of money on a long distance trip to the Rockies.

    As a result there must be at least a few clues that refer to well-known place names that are connected by roads.

    That’s not the only problem with a “natural features only” concept of the nine clues. But if posters can’t see how myopic this tiny, tiny search area full of 9 natural clues theory is, I’m not going to spend any additional time on the other reasons the theory is not sound.

    And that’s my opinion, even as it may conflict with the opinions of popular message board posters who are on this board seemingly 24 hours every day, 7 days a week.

    Ken (in Texas) 🙂

    • Hi Ken, my opinion is that the poem states a location that can be found on some maps but not many; and a location that locals know without a map. I also believe you need transportation, but he gives us instructions by water, not road. I also believe more than one of the clues contain (but are not directly about) man made destinations. For example, he could say ” When you see the first red rock after the bridge, scan the horizon….” So bridge isn’t a clue by itself, but it’s still part of one. My opinion 🙂 Happy hunting!

    • Texas Ken – i’ll patiently ask you for the third (and final) time, what do you mean by ‘geo-scaling’ precisely..??
      third time lucky, hopefully

      yes, i agree that Forrest has included a ‘local BOTG’ clause
      ..if even just to exclude such international rascals ..like Ronnie the Scot, for e.g 🙂

      but no, i certainly don’t adhere to your theory (re: automobiles only) given that a “put in” tends to suggest a boatie-terminology more-so than a ’35 Plymouth Tudor being entirely essential
      (..well, with the exception of a ’70 Dodge Super-Bee, perhaps)

      and yes, i agree that Blex is constantly posting here 24/7 due to his obvious insomnia dilemma – when ya right ya right.. right?

      Hobbit (in Middle Earth) 🙂

      • Well, I do admit I’ve woken up a couple of nights recently at around 2:00 am and couldn’t get back to sleep, CH. That’s related to work-stress though, not Chase-stress. All the more reason for me to find the TC so I can retire early! 🙂

      • abso-agree Blex, that work-stress seems all too prevalent in these recent decades

        but don’t worry tho, once ya find the TC, i def promise to spend my half on a beach-bar in the Caribbean with Sparrow – and there’s a free margarita and comfy hammock with ya name on it, mate

        ..so long as ya name’s “Coca-Cola – it’s the real thing”

        ( ..ummm – it’s a free promo-hammock 🙂 )

      • curious hobbit wrote:
        “Texas Ken – i’ll patiently ask you for the third (and final) time, what do you mean by ‘geo-scaling’ precisely..??
        third time lucky, hopefully”
        ———————————————————

        CH, in geography, the phrase “geographic scale as a rather technical meaning. But insofar as this treasure hunt is concerned I define it simply as the distance between the first clue and the treasure chest.

        The greater the distance, the larger the search area and therefore the greater the possibility for making incorrect judgments as one proceeds through the 9 clues.

        The smaller the distance from 1st clue to the chest, the smaller the search area and therefore the less need for so many clues.

        Using an extreme example, let’s say a searcher’s geographic scale from clue 1 to the chest is a mere 500 feet. That’s a tiny area. Why would the searcher need 9 clues? Searcher could simply scour the entire couple of acres without needing any clues.

        That there are 9 clues, as opposed to 2 or 3 tells me that the search area is larger than what some posters here assume it to be. And this larger area gets confirmation from the phrase “too far to walk”.

        Ken (in Texas)

    • Ken, that summation seems to work because everything in Fenns collections are man made except old fossils like himself.

      Now it’s near a mountain top, but not necessarily on a mountain top, well if it is located between 5,000′ elevation and 10,200′ in terms of the Rockies, that is a small peak IMO unless near means horizontal as opposed to vertical, so how far is near and how deep is ff’s definition of a hole?

      TT

    • Ken ~’That poem phrase implies that some form of transportation is required other than one’s two feet.’
      Or, you just can’t read it with another option in mind… such as… the searcher may not have to travel down a canyon and back up and down again twice in one afternoon etc etc. But simply the waters travel is down. I call the concept of being a stomping mode because we might think we ‘need’ to be in the canyon. There are alternative thought as related to geography and not just stomping.

      While you may not want to “spend additional time on the other reasons the theory is not sound.” Your theory is only sound IF, and that is a big IF, there are 9 individual clue references to 9 individual clue places… That thought process automatically forces 9 places and sometimes force long distances. While you could be correct, it not the only idea to think about.

      Here’s something to ponder… fenn stated in a Q&A; Although I’m not ready to say the chest is not in water {talking about the olive jar} and later came out and stated “not under waters”
      Another Q&A stated; marry the clues to A place on a map, and yet, another comment, Put and X om a map…. I’ll also add that in 2013 fenn stated wwh is the first clue [ thanks Loco] but ever since that comment from ND… he never repeated [ in a recorded venue ] it and let folks think what they would… fenn is not going to do our work for us, However, at times, I do think he gives information is such a way as to help us think… the above comments [ X on a map, and Clues to a place ] might be subtle information we should consider as; a single location with clue references being close and no need for alternative transportation.

      “If you can’t make two trips from your car to your solve in several hours, then don’t go.”
      While you might believe fenn’s “use” of his vehicle was needed to travel some of the clues to a point where he then had to hike… I look at this fundamental thought as a searchers complete solve and not just a general solve. A complete location with all clue references to straight to and not so much drive all around to get from point A to point B or C.

      This is why I theorist that wwwh is where hoB is and possibly above [ in a slight elevation ] The waters put in below hoB and hoB relates to HLAWH to be all in a relatively small location…. with all that said, just means, I read the poem slightly different that you. Neither of us can say for certain which is correct. BUT I completely disagree with the concept that fenn created this challenge, as you said ~’The treasure hunt was engineered for everyone in the U.S., from coast to coast and border to border, not just for a few fortunate locals who don’t need to spend any amount of money on a long distance trip to the Rockies.’

      The challenge is for anyone, no matter from India, or New Zealand. I think that is important because, Little Indy can figure out, at the very least, the first two clues with the poem and a RM map, or maybe, just the poem… yet “can not get closer than the first two clues”… Maybe because IF she was there… physically… she is on site.

      People have asked the question – once you know the solve, do you think anyone would be disappointed in it solution? Personally, I think many will be. I think many will not see the poem as straightforward as they hope it is. LOL, I mean we still have some who want the chest in water and others who want the first clue to something other than WWWH… Ya just can’t fix stupid, when there is no imagination.

    • Ken.

      You said: “That poem phrase implies that some form of transportation is required other than one’s two feet. What form of transportation? An automobile, of course. As a result, some of the clues must relate to driving directions and therefore cannot be totally “naturally occurring”.
      This further implies the importance of “geographic scale”, a concept that posters here have never shown any interest in discussing.”

      I disagree. The clues point to specific locations on a map and give you an idea of the geographic scale also. For example, many of us feel, based on the poem’s statement of too far to walk, and other Fenn statements, that the distance from where warm waters halt to home of Brown may be around 10 miles. How you get from one point to the next is not specified. Could be rafting, cycling, driving, or some other means. There is no reason that all of the clues in the poem can’t refer to natural (not man made) objects and formations. Also, some of us believe that the distance between home of Brown and the treasure is between 2 to 5 miles. In any case, there has certainly been discussion about geographic scale on this forum.

      • TFTW surely could mean you have to drive. It can also mean don’t go, its too far. If I saw one basic stick of gum that was being sold for $5 I could say $5 not much, but too much to pay. I am not going to be buying that stick of gum.

        • I can also twist the whole 2nd stanza to make it refer to what the warm waters are doing, not what I should be doing. The warm waters halt here and they flow down the canyon 10 miles or whatever TFTW is, the warm waters merge (go into get put in)with another stream of water. The point they do that is below HOB.

          • JDA,
            For what it’s worth, I went digging for the meaning of “waters”. definition includes “mineral springs”. After searching all of the states I came across one particular spring that looked interesting. Potosi spring in Montana. If you look up the word “Potosi” you will find it means “riches, fortune, etc.”
            I’m not going to get back to Montana for the forseeable future but would like to hear your thoughts as well as anyone else scrounging around Montana.

          • Bob;

            I search in Wyoming, and not Montana, but they are close neighbors.

            Were I looking in Montana, your Potosi Springs could be interesting. It seems to have the right connections.

            I like my wwwh, but if this week-end becomes a bust, I will remember your suggestion. Thanks for sharing – JDA

  71. Divergent question: Where is Forrest? I’ve never seen him absent from the discourse for this long. No postings on Mysterious Writings either. Has he decided to stop interacting with the community? The Chase will languish without his presence, IMO.

    • Stephan- who cares where Forrest is? not me. he wants the chase to continue for a thousand years so I suggest get used to him not being around right now. if the chase were to languish as you suggest it will be because searchers are worshiping the man and not the message.

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