The Nine Clues…

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This is the place to discuss the nine clues…For instance:
What are the nine clues…
Is the first clue “Begin it where warm waters halt” ?

623 thoughts on “The Nine Clues…

  1. The nine Clues – Part 76 – The question is, “Are we any closer to figuring out what the nine clues are than we were at The nine Clues – Part 1”? JDA

    • Subscribe….thanks Dal.

      ********
      JDA wrote….

      “The nine Clues – Part 76 – The question is, “Are we any closer to figuring out what the nine clues are than we were at The nine Clues – Part 1”? JDA”

      It all depends on who you ask.

    • Hi JDA: I guess collectively we are all closer, if only because our lists of places the chest ~isn’t~ has grown so much. 😉

    • JDA, You recently stated (I don’t remember which subject page) that the original Forrest poem had the line/clue “Look quickly down beyond the stones” . Where did you get that clue/info that this was a line from the working Fenn poem?

      • Arnold;

        You posted the same question yesterday, on a different thread – I answered it there. Basic answer: Google the phrase. Click on 1st post = sale of a book “A Treasure More Than Gold” by Ritt Gordan that references the quote. The second reference I have is:one was in Jenny Kile’s Questions – part two
        Richard – on October 17, 2016 at 3:18 references it. Hope this helps. JDA

        • So Mr. Fenn didn’t actually say it? I’ve only heard him say something about “leave my bones”, so I assume Ritt came up with “stones” as something that rhymes with “bones”? Has Mr. Fenn ever confirmed Ritt’s version? Would be nice to know if he has.

          • Not that I can come up with.. I found “Chatter” on the blog – repeating the lines, but no one ever referenced an actual quote. I was hoping to find “proof” once up a time, to reinforce a “spot” below
            my “tarry scant” – but never found it. JDA

  2. My 9 cents worth
    1) Begin where warm waters halt
    2) And take it in the canyon down
    3) Not far but too far to walk
    4) Put in the home of Brown
    5) There’ll be no paddle up your creek
    6) Just heavy loads and water high
    7) If you’ve been wise and found the blaze
    8) Look quickly down
    9) worth the cold, if you are brave and in the wood

  3. I think when a person solves the first clue, they will know it…as for the second clue, and the third clue, etc, etc. Sure, at some point one has to leave the couch to go get it but I think they will be very confident at that point. All this “guessing” is not “solving” the clues. People need to stop playing musical geography and actually try to solve the clues. That’s what I think and of course, I don’t have a clue…

    • Some very wise observations Toughshed…you definitely have the logical side going full bore…just add a ton of imagination from the artistic side and boom! Before you know it you might beat me to the square box of dreams come true. And go down in history.

  4. If you reverse engineer the poem
    wood-a land area or body of water named after a wood species.
    Cold- summer time search only means, must be cold water runoff and you are going to get wet.
    Blaze- is the great mystery
    Heavy loads- (plural) mountains are for mining? Water high- lake at high elevation or waterfall
    No paddle up your creek. Paddle like oar (or is it ore)
    Brown- fish, bat, bear, color or is it arrow head chert

    Please, would somebody find the treasure so I can sleep at night:)
    If my clues are found valid please remember me with a token of appreciation:)

  5. By now, and in light of the recently discussed NZ radio interview, we should ALL know at least the first real clue…

    “Begin it where warm waters halt”…

    I’ll hazard the second clue is…

    “And take it in the canyon down
    Not far, but too far to walk.”…

    I think the two lines work together for the second clue. You may not think the same and that’s OK by me. For me, it just works better this way.

    • Samsmith. I don’t think it’s it makes any difference whether you consider that one clue or two clues. You are still going to use both of those to get you going toward the home of Brown anyway. After home of Brown, it’s not as clear cut.

    • I think many on these blogs realize there are other books to read for hints. IMO, www refers to a book, and too far to walk is in the same book. From that book, you get a general area, but deciding the specific spot is the challenge. I will be glad when the treasure is found just to see if my area is correct. My family thinks I am a little goofy trying to figure this out, but it is better for me than watching the news.

  6. Forrest says we have to find where warm waters halt (the first clue and starting point). I’m coming to the realization that you need to solve the other eight clues in order to “unlock” the first clue. But even that might not be enough. I have a solution that would put me to within a few feet of the treasure, IF I have the correct starting point. Problem is, I am not certain that my starting point is correct. Forrest says it is possible to go to the treasure with certainty, so I must still be missing something important that would convincingly point to my specific starting point.

    • TOM; Do not forget to take tea and biscuits orio breakfast, do not forget the cloves point in the Bandelier National Monument, stay 15 miles from the volcano, hug and good week

    • The other 8 will not “unlock” the first clue otherwise one of the many people who have gotten the first two clues right would have found it by now.

    • Tom – IMO, FF has made a few apparent contradictions and you touch on one…it is possible to go to the treasure with certainty vs one will not know if they got the 1st clue right until they find TC…sorry guys for paraphrasing, but I’m knew and couldn’t quickly locate verbatim. However, I don’t think these two comments are as contradictory as they seem, but rather sparring due to context and time.

      As we all know, the clues are so vague that we can find numerous solves amidst our large “field”. So, here’s a piece of red meat for the pack to chew on…I suspect FF comment regarding path of certainty (vs mere guess finding TC) revolves around some “extensive” clues (outside the poem) that will coincide/collaborate the “intensive” clues (inside the poem) to verify a valid solve. Unfortunately, my only spin on what comprises these ‘extensive clues’ (so far) is that they must exceed the “magnitude” (for lack of a better word) of the hints FF throws us.

      As a sidebar, I find it amusing that the hidey spot is so heavily frequented…even by searchers NOT searching there! Hmmm, exactly what type of location has such a draw, yet no trail in immediate proximity…

      • Here are the two quotes you are referring to:

        “Until someone finds the treasure they will not know for sure that they have discovered the first clue.”

        “I warned that the path would not be direct for those who had no certainty of the location beforehand, but sure for the one who did.”

        There does seem to be a contradiction here.

        • Kudos Tom, do you have the JCM database? BTW any idea who & when started searcher term?…always reminds me of the watchers in Highlander series. Surely treasure hunters or seekers, but treasure “searchers”???

          • Matt. A good place to search for Fenn quotes is tarryscant.com. The other site I use is, I believe, mysterious writings.com

        • Not really Tom. If someone has a solve with coordinates, they may not know or even care what the first clue is. If they are sure about their coordinates, and do happen to find the chest, then they can see what the first clue was referenced from. Someone could go in confidence with the coordinates, that is, if coordinates are the correct solve. He did say if you had the coordinates you could find the chest. And, the only important clue is the last clue. Paraphrasing. Remember, some have solved the first two clues, but they didn’t know it, why? They didn’t have the chest. You could solve all the clues, but, until you have the chest, you won’t know for sure. Coordinates can give someone confidence in finding the chest.

          • But Charlie, how do you distinguish guess from confidence by simply adding some destination coordinates??? No doubt, many 1000s of searches had tons of confidence, but TC remains intact…

            This is why I think that a confident solve requires external coinciding clues, akin a parallel universe.

          • Matt,I never said to guess and throw coordinates out there. I totally believe that a lot of what needs to be solved are after comments, stories, etc….
            I think it’s laughable that some say the have figured the 9 clues and that’s it. Lol, just figured 9 things huh? I’ve counted the things I believe I could argue as correct in a positive way from all. 77, from butterfly=flutterby to bells, to alligators and jokers and the 9 clues.
            There comes a time when there is so much that you have to think that maybe there is more than coincidence. To think that 77 things are just coincidence and do not belong to anything is a stretch of it’s own. It’s not what Forrest says in the poem but what he whispers on the blogs. Not to say the poem is not important, just the outside things he has come up with are just as important. There is no way that I could go in confidence if all I thought I had was just the 9 clues.
            Since you said adding destination coordinates, I did that to mine, added and subtracted. I think it is pretty cool that I come up with 2442. Same thing I get when I add up my “clue” lines from the poem. And, adding the “key” line to the “clue” lines by stanza I get 029220, the exact amount of days in 80 years. Book of Days…
            There is a lot more than just 9 clues involved, the confidence comes from trying to figure it all out.

        • Tom,
          Those two comments can be read as;
          Certainty of the path of the ‘clues’ will not be direct until you have certainty of the ‘location’ all the clues, beforehand.

          It would seem possible if there are many wwwh there might be just has many canyon down, etc. So, are those two comments talking about clues themselves, or is the warning from the book, a hint that we need a location of all the clues first?

          There’s another comment about; Need to nail down the first clue…
          Well, are we to find wwwh first or are we to find the location of where the clues are first… so we can nail down the correct wwh.

          The confusion, imo, might be more about the size of the path.
          Is the path’s location in a state? a region? The size of a village? a single and even smaller location?
          *Your destination is small, but its location is huge (Posted Feb. 19th, 2016).

          • Seeker, I’m beginning to think that maybe there is a commonaliti the clues that will help nail down the location of where warm waters halt. From my perspective, for example, I see a Native American theme to the collection of clues. Others will no doubt see something different. In any case, I am convinced that where warm waters halt is not a stand-alone clue.

          • Seeker – at the risk of sounding like a math major, when WWWH is a generic (vs specific) geographical feature, where (1) WWWH is a 1D point (2) canyon is a 2D line, and (3) canyon down is a 3D line, then 1>3 is most likely. And IMO, 3 coincides 1 with greater frequency than 1 coincides 3 (higher % of canyon downs have WWWH than % WWWH have canyon downs) whereby chasing canyon down appears easier than chasing WWWH.

            I think FF comments reveal huge location means Rocky Mountains, and small destination means less than 1 mile HOB-TC. Meanwhile, the colossal juggernaut remains: WWWH-HOB which I surmise is 10-20 miles.

    • One definition I found stated – when a person faces North, “nigh” corresponds to their left hand (or West). Is that what you’re looking for?

      • Not really. From my latest pibthob, my most likely area is to the right/east though the area to the left isn’t ruled out.

    • I would stick with “near”were I you.

      Definition of nigh

      1
      : near in place, time, or relationship Morning was drawing nigh. —often used with on, onto, or unto
      served … for nigh on forty years — M. S. Tisdale

      2
      : nearly, almost
      … once well nigh broke his neck, by a fall from one of its branches. — Washington Irving – But that is just me – JDA

  7. All,
    Jdiggins said, “Approx 68000 thoughts for nine lil ole clues..”

    If there are 100 or so different possibilities for WWWH, and 30 or so different possibilities for NFBTFTW, and 100 or so different possibilities for PIBTHOB, then we may need over 300,000 thoughts altogether…
    Only about 270,000 thoughts to go!
    Time for me to charge my camera batteries and schedule a visit to go shoot some photos of a potential clue.
    Safe searching, everyone!
    Geoff
    “Have flashlight (and camera), will travel”

  8. Is it possible that New Mexico is the starting point? I know many, including myself at times are farther north in Wyoming and Montana, but I have as of late been giving greater thought to New Mexico.

    As I have gone alone in there
    And with my treasures bold
    I can keep my secret where
    And hint of riches new and old

    The opening two lines kind of parallel his journey after the military, leaving Texas for a new life in Santa Fe. He left his family (mom, dad, etc.) and where they were from, that would be pretty bold going somewhere with little, knowing no one and not sure what your gonna do when you get there. “As I have gone alone”. FF refers to his family (Peggy, Kelly & Zoe) in TTOTC as “my team”, could they also be “and with my treasures bold”? Treasures can, but does not have to be pluralized to get the point of a valuable chest across, treasure in the singular is also understood to mean anything of value or a collection of things that have value. In other words, the Pirates Treasure Map, if followed correctly, will lead you to the location of the gold and jewels. It doesn’t have to be the Pirates Treasures Map.
    Also, if you type FF’s poem in a word document, it wants you to put a question mark after the “I can keep my secret where” (?). Could that be the indicator that “where” is where he went boldly alone with his treasures?
    New Mexico?

    Anyway, just a few ramblings on my personal thoughts/opinions.

    TheSleepyHollowBard

    • Hmmm sleepy – I agree with NM. Years ago, NM was a default backed by line 4 “and hint of treasures new and old” (new & old treasures of/from New & Old Mexico). However, I’ll let that one slide and go with more blatant past logic:

      (1) why did original “in mountains north of Sante Fe” transform into Rocky Mountains?
      (2) why only 1000 copies TOTC printed?
      (3) why only available from 1 small bookstore?

      All 3 of these questions (and other stuff) reek of only one thing…a locale “event”. The veteran searchers all know this, but most have blown off NM for YNP or whatever. My question to such searchers is how can their logic find TC when they dismiss the logic that started this chase?

      • Matt,
        I do not discredit searches in any of the other states, as I myself have researched, with good result, those possibilities as well. Since none have found the chest, anywhere within the boundaries of the map (Rockies) are open game.
        However, with that said, I do agree with your logic of the original statement “…in the mountains north of Santa Fe..” (paraphrasing). This would indicate to the listener that it was in proximity to Santa Fe. I have also always thought that when Forrest was diagnosed with cancer and his original plans were to “go with the chest”, I don’t believe he would want to be far from his family (“my team”), I know I wouldn’t.

      • TheSleepyHollowBard and Matt. I agree with your reasoning here. I am totally convinced that the treasure is in New Mexico. He was planning, and may still be, to die at the treasure site. It’s not far from home (but too far to walk).

        • Tom – another issue I have with FF plan to RIP with TC is how does he get there 1-way without detection? (1) flying or driving alone would be leaving a plane or car exposed, at least somewhere within general area (2) and pitching bike in the river sounds very close to home (3) and taking taxi to hidey sounds risky, but less so now due to uber (4) stealing a car is about the best transport I can come up with, but risk (cops) rises with distance. All-in-all, RIP-TC favors close proximity, especially if age and illness are involved.

          I think we’re both on the same page, and your “Native American theme to the collection of clues” is what I meant by a previous post on outside clues confirming inside clues. I used to think any confident solve would tell a “story”, even if the story was only a map path in arrowhead shape. However, I now think it’s much looser, and find “theme” an xlnt choice of words.

      • Read the poem with everyone, then from the bottom up, to the observation, this way of reading does not change the poem, it is called reverse reading (from top to bottom and from bottom to top.
        Look, search for (title) and you hunters will understand

      • * * * * * * Matt Brown asked –
        “(1) why did original “in mountains north of Sante Fe” transform into Rocky Mountains?
        (2) why only 1000 copies TOTC printed?
        (3) why only available from 1 small bookstore?” * * * * * *

        Well Matt, I do think it’s very interesting to read all the after-the-poem comments in chronological order (and I believe JCM has one version of his collection arranged that way).

        The evolution of (and “the selling of”) The Chase I don’t think unlocks the secret, but it may help shift and re-organize the way one thinks about it when you back off and re-approach it in this way.

        When I first found myself sitting on the floor adrift in piles of puzzle pieces, I put it all away for awhile, then came back to it that way.

        (Doesn’t answer your question, Matt – just saying I do agree it can be useful to look at the whole endeavor the way you did in your comment.)

        JAKe

      • Matt – you are missing one other early event/fact from your list.

        “I got reacquainted with Forrest a few years ago, and then, when I was down in Santa Fe in July of
        2010… we had lunch together and he said he’d hidden a treasure box, a box full of gold, and was just finishing up a book with clues on how to find it.”

        This is a statement from Irene Rawlings in November 2010 made during a radio broadcast in Boulder, CO. Note that f planned and made arrangements 4 months prior to the release of TTOTC to market it to the Denver, CO area… just a little outside of the local area of Santa Fe.

        I determined early in the search that it is a bad idea to try and rationalize the exclusion of any areas. I have seen various people argue for the the exclusion of all the various places on the map. I think that might be people’s way to psychologically justify and convince themselves that the solution they are working on or have come up with must be correct. Somewhere in the process of exclusion, people successfully maximized the possibility that they will never find the chest.

        I smile when I see people challenging others to prove that their solution is wrong. A pointless exercise in futility! The chest will never be found by trying to prove that ones general solve is the correct solve by argument. One can arrange a variety of ‘facts’ or comments in many ways to make a sound argument, but that doesn’t mean that the argument is correct.

        A general solve will only be proven to be the correct solve when someone produces the chest.

        • JCM – I only touched on a few book facts to keep a tight focus, but indeed, more in play. Your “one can arrange a variety of ‘facts’ or comments in many ways to make a sound argument, but that doesn’t mean that the argument is correct” had me remembering Rumfeld’s incredible “As we know, there are known knowns; there are things we know we know. We also know there are known unknowns; that is to say we know there are some things we do not know. But there are also unknown unknowns—the ones we don’t know we don’t know.”

          I’m always trying to glam onto tidbits that will aid adding a 3rd dimension to this poem-riddle rather than endlessly reciting a 2d Gregorian chant, and to this end, I find facts and logic are hard to beat. A good example is how does FF know the frequency and nature of foot traffic near TC? Sure, searchers might report in, but non searchers??? Fact: all 4 states have the lowest population density besides Alaska, but these 4 also have among the highest visitor/resident ratios (NM has 2M res. and had 33M vis. last yr). Logic: (1) some searchers reported to FF but (2) some searchers did not report (3) I doubt any searchers reported other foot traffic. Conclusion: unless FF is clairvoyant, his foot traffic info is via manual or electronic observation…prior or post hiding TC. Now, for the no-brainer…FF knows this spot so well that he knew foot traffic prior hiding TC and “was going to make it work no matter what”. IMO this is a major clue beyond hidey spot, since if this destination is so popular, I think the entire path is fairly “close in” vs across remote wilderness.

  9. I totally disagree…’in mountains north of santa fe’ is vague and indeed COULD include the entire rocky mountains with little/no stretch of the imagination. Your other bullets are equally week, IMO…book printings…ff was already experienced in self publishing and while he certainly was wealthy enough to just print 10000 copies right away, do you think maybe he wanted the option to FIX some things should they have come up? Never know what can go wrong with a printing, there were a lot of people in the middle of that step, my guess was to allow for corrections, allow the printer to have a good feel for the materials/process before replicating large numbers. And finally, only using collected works bookstore…again, ff was already self published, believes in the American dream/buy American, and does things his own way…given all the interviews/GMA appearances/NM tourism campaign, do you really think he didn’t anticipate those things? I do not…he thought of everything. Not saying NM is out, just saying, IMO IMO IMO, it is just as likely as the other 3 states given his familiarity with those states: 17+ years of driving from Temple to YNP with his family, would have to drive thru at least CO and WYO, and we know his family live(d) in MT…I get it NM is ‘close to home’, but he has/always was a pretty active fellow…his affiliations with U of WY anthropology dept, Buffalo Bill museum in Cody, and any other myriad ‘hobbies’ he had, would allow travel to any of the 4 states at any given time without triggering questions from Peggy or others in Santa Fe.

    • Nothing vague about “in the mountains north of Santa Fe”. He didn’t need to say “in New Mexico” because he already mentioned Santa Fe.

    • Tbug,

      As I mentioned in my earlier post, I am not discrediting anyone’s search area, as no one, including myself, has found the chest. I have, like many , if not all I’m sure come up with hundreds of reasons why it could be in Wyoming, Montana or Colorado. Following clues down every avenue they lead and journaling the findings.
      I was merely stating that I am trending towards New Mexico. When I boil down the poem, the clues, the extras, etc., it keeps leading me back to NM.
      If “…home is where the heart is…”, then I believe that the chest is somewhere in NM. Doesn’t mean I’m right, but its what my instincts are telling me.
      TheSleepyHollowBard

      • I hear ya Sleepy, sorry wasn’t trying to sound so authoritarian (clearly I don’t have indulgence either), and I agree, when used in conjunction with other elements there is possibility for NM, but just those points alone, IMO, are big nothing-burgers, they don’t exclude NM, but they don’t exclude the other states either, again, IMO. Sorry TomB, I disagree with most of your ideas (I wanted to like your RR winter thoughts solve)…how is any range in the rockies NOT north of S Fe? (besides the few south, that are obviously not on the map) north of s Fe is super vague IMO, do you put stock in the 300 miles west of Toledo comment? He said Toledo so? IMO, just saying S Fe is not enough, I realize you put it together with all the rest, but it is the definition of confirmation bias, IMO. Why write so many stories about places he spent time growing up in/around…big misdirection? So many WhatIFs, again, just IMHO.

        • Think about this logically. If Fenn was initially referring to the Rocky Mountains, there is no reason to mention Santa Fe at all, since nearly all of the Rockies are north of Santa Fe. By specifically mentioning Santa Fe, he knows many, if not most, will assume New Mexico. It would be misleading otherwise, and I don’t believe that fits his character.

          • Is well thinking you can see on the other hand, title, game of the broncos and cowboys difference of 3 points, their first game in denver colorado, which has opposite the stadium hotel marven, has a name of irene rawlings, was curator, and Work on other things culture museum, newspaper, and you will find a musseu that she works very interesting, fenn was pilot and had 2 aircraft you remember, an airplane is faster than traveling by car and with less hours, but not shooting New mexico because I found many interesting things there, Spanish, Baudelaire mountain abique, without forgetting (lewis, which looks like a symbol and a triangle, anyway I’m still searching, stone granite, lavender, A brilliant blue metamorphic rock, brown bear, the most interesting Is that I need to see the pictures of the bathroom of your ff but I can not find, because someone called my attention as well as his desk in the 17th century with the lid open.

        • We can agree to disagree on this point. Everyone is free to look in the mountains north of New Mexico if they wish.

          Something to consider. If you showed a map of the western US to a child, pointed out the location of Santa Fe and asked them to point to the mountains north of Santa Fe, where would you expect them to point?

          • Tom B – many people accuse f of misleading, misdirecting, and/or only being 85% truthful (lying) in what he says. He has said very specifically and clearly that he does not do those things (though he admits that he is subject to being wrong occasionally).

            I’m not going to go back and count how many times f has said that a person has to ‘think’ as part of the process for finding the chest, but it is many times.

            I believe the biggest problem for most people who would accuse f of misleading, misdirecting, etc., is that they don’t think, or they don’t think enough.

            If I read the phrase ‘In the mountains north of Santa Fe’, AND WITHOUT THINKING, establish in my mind “that’s ONLY northern New Mexico”, and then build everything I believe to be fact around that idea, has f mislead or misdirected me in any way?

            But if I stop and do some thinking, and I figure out and understand that these ‘mountains north of Santa Fe’ are actually the southern part of the Rocky Mountains, and they are part of the Rocky Mountain Range which runs all the way up into Canada, what have I done? I have simply and CORRECTLY figured out the full meaning of what f stated in his statement.

            Is his statement vague? Yeah!!! Can it be interpreted various ways? Yeah!!! That is how he plays this game.

            But I see no misleading or misdirection by f; what he said is 100% correct, it is only MY perception of what he said and MY lack of properly thinking that limits myself from understanding the facts and the full implications of the statement by f.

            I think this idea can be applied to many things f has said, including his poem.

            ‘If a person will think, they can find the chest; but the secret is to think and analyze… they can find the chest.” f

          • Hi JCM.

            I would like to admit that I have said the word “misdirecting” on these blogs….BUT….i have never stated that FF spoke with this in mind.

            IMO – the Poem has misdirection embedded into it……for obvious reasons……to help confuse the seeker, make it harder to solve, and hopefully keep the chase alive for a long time.

            I say this, because if it has not…..the puzzle would have been solved a long time ago. It is all part of the construction.

            Be the chest!

            :o)

            Good luck to you.

          • Tom B…in answer to you question – Colorado. I think most people associate the Rocky Mountains with Colorado, home of 57+ 14ers and almost 700 peaks over 13,000′. A good part of the state is over a “mile high”. Just like Idaho is famous for it’s potatoes, we are famous for our mountains.

            I’m not sure if anyone else caught FF’s use of “Technicolor” twice in recent posts this past Spring?

            Here’s my analysis. Colorado means “colored red” in Spanish. One of Colorado’s nicknames is “Colorful Colorado”. WELCOME TO COLORFUL COLORADO appears on every border crossing sign into the state.

            Can Technicolor be referring to Colorado??? Colored red? Adding red color to the film process? Technicolor as a hint to Colorful Colorado?

            And who drinks red tea, anyway? That’s an aberration in itself.

          • Sandy, although ff says many things in so-called ‘normal’ everyday speech, there are those that still find clues or hints in what he says. Ive found that people do that to me, thinking im speaking prophetically, when in actuality I just am being ‘kym’ speaking my mind.
            With that in mind ff’s “Technicolor ” statement could be just that or a red herring (giggle), or it could mean…. well… technically it could be in Coloradp, but is not. A border maybe???, as in the 4 squares area, where you can actually stand in 4 states at once. Lol smilring in my opinion only. 🙂

        • Tom B: it’s really simpler than that. He put the southern limit 66,000 links north of Santa Fe to try to discourage people from showing up at his door or digging on his property. Unfortunately, there are plenty of morons that Forrest didn’t count on who ignored his Santa Fe exclusionary remarks. Search in NM if you must, but I will NEVER search there. It is THE most-searched state, and yet the least likely state for the chest to be from a square miles-in-play perspective.

          • Kyn:Yes you are looking for a fish known as T, or salmon, this fish T is next to TURLEY, AZTEC NEW MEXICO, I just found a point of it because there are several fish type T, plus a type T species only has 1 new mexico

    • Tbug is on as to why only 1000 copies were printed. There is actual changes between the original and newer versions of the book.

  10. Not sure if this will change anything for F but 87.. 8+7=15 and so maybe it’s time to try something new… Just playing..hope you have a great Bday.

  11. Sandy. I agree that most people’s first choice for the Rocky Mountains would not be New Mexico. That’s why I think he was originally thinking of New Mexico when he said it’s in the mountains north of Santa Fe instead of saying in the Rocky Mountains. I believe he changed it to Rocky Mountains to get more people involved in the chase. But, as I said earlier, people will interpret it to their own bias. No one knows for sure until the treasure has been found.

    • Kudos Tom, copy that…my read is that original inclusion of Santa Fe yet exclusion of Rocky Mountains infers NM as a slam dunk, unless an early blunder or deception. I see FF as a slow sure hand moving with the confidence of experience, but he does “trip the wire” occasionally, like the interview where he said TC was 5,000-10,200′ elevation. No doubt, most watched this “several” times, and no doubt, we all heard the same thing, each time: FF starting to say 7,000 prior 5,000. My spin is that FF switched gears to increase vacation field, not search field, thus increasing odds of family outings. Who knows, maybe that stutter was a crafty nod in both directions.

      • Matt or it’s way of creating a rabbit hole when there is none.
        Like a magician the 7… was the slight of hand so those that cling to every word would jump at it and abandon other areas below that point, yet all the while being truthful that it’s above 5000ft give or take 200ft that is.

  12. as i see it im just sharing what i must look for when i go to montana i have looked in every stat but mt so here i g

    1 i must find the right place where he went in alone where 2 is
    o2 i must find the right water wwh which is number 1 clue
    2 imust find the right canyon
    3 i must find the right hint of riches new and old
    4 i must find the right Brown
    5 i MUST FINDTHE RIGHT MEEK
    6 i must find the right creek
    7i must find the heavy loads and water high
    8 i must find the right blaze
    9i must find the right wood below the blaze maybe ill keep my shoes on
    if i do all that brave i get to give mr Fenn his bracelet back
    ill give it a go what do you think

    • To be honest Jeff, I think your picture is a bit TOO large…Maybe some more narrowing down to a smaller area would be beneficial…Just my 2 cts worth…

      • your right sam smith this sure is a kick in the but im going to make it down to west yellow stone just to poke around but first there are some neet places to wonder down from and visit its going to be so much fun to live in beauty in mind to all the above stated places to see eql to start positive thought ends that way too. got to go to be apart it wont be a empty world i find i cant think at 100% but i will take what i have and work with it and enjoy every min i get

        • Im getting Married to a woman that has stuck through my short commings over the past year with my health issues this will be a pre i cant remeber the word oh hunny moon i guess thats right but we are going for the first time to the yellow stone country for both of us so we will enjoy the time together no matter how big the area is sam wish us a good and safe time ty for the push in that direction Mr Fenn we are closing on a house next month so good things are happing for us good life to all of you as well

          • thanks dal we will be in that area on the3 or 4th so ty for the offer were around umtill the 6th or so i hope we can cross paths T itan would love a pet on the head from you again he loves everyone if not we will be at the next fenboree. titan jumps when ranee gets home tail wagin he maks her daywe will do dutch soundslike fun have a great night all got to find a good caynon i can get a echo out of i loved that when i was a younger man

      • your right throw a bed roll in the back pack up the truck and titan and narrow it down to a 10x 10 x 5 ill think about that samsmith ty i will sit around knocking my knees together untill we get to go im not going to get lost but titan would find me i stay close to safety these days thats for him too just cant go wondering like i used toits all good we all have to learn to live in our safety zones and its in a safe place just my last 2 cents sam i think

        • Sparrow i found some very cool places to visit but im not sure of mswmybe the old mm i saw a field with thebeauty all around it witha root standing strong in the middle not sure if ill find it but ill try to get pics of the journey and send them in note to dal hope to the trip is all thats important the fortune can hang out im comming back a richer man no matter what whos to know where the trail will lead i found a name changer to day his grandpa is of historical measure its just neat learning history

          • dont get me wrong i would love to return a braclet to mr Fenn but i have lived a richer life because of this adventure not sure if what is in the box could even compare to what i have already gained in knowlrdge of history i would not have any of this if not for ttotc.im sure it will take years of visits to places unknown before anything is found that is the design of
            it its all time right the fun is on the big blue marbel there is alot of warm water in the world good night all off to learn more history retaining it is a bit tough bu ti try to write it down notes are good

  13. i dont know but these steps run through my mind like a train on steroieds every wher i go even if its around the block

  14. 9 clues simplified. 1 Location, 2 direction, 3 distance, 4 location, 5 direction, 6 distance, 7 location, 8 direction, 9 distance. 1 Where warm waters halt. 2 in the canyon down. 3 Not far, but too far to walk. 4 Put in below the house of Brown. 5 The end is drawing ever nigh. 6 There’ll be no paddle up your creek. 7 If you’ve been wise and found the blaze. 8 Look quickly down. 9 your quest to cease. 3,6,9 distances are going to be estimates based on how we get to the next location, 3 too far to walk we are driving, 6 if 5 is a location of a put in instead of an action of us putting in then we are at a dead end for driving which means we are within walking distance, 9 we are right on top of it if we are at the blaze very little distance if any to the treasure.

    • Chris ~”…3 too far to walk we are driving,..”

      I don’t know if you’re right or wrong… but for the life of me I can understand why more and more folks believe there must be driving involved with the travel of the clues?

      There are many comments [ some of which you have collected ] that tell of searchers “walked by,” ” walked past,” “went by” the remaining clues and/or the treasure chest… fenn also stated he “followed the clues”… tell us, Don’t go where an 80 yr old carrying a heavy backpack can’t go…
      Does that sound like; ~don’t go to this clue or that clue where an 80 yr old can’t, so he had to drive, Or is it all the clues, two trip in one afternoon, walked less than a few miles, and capable of “walking several hours or don’t go”?

      Really… what’s the point in collecting the ATF information if people enjoy using the excuse… fenn is only telling us 85% of the truth and/or is misleading.
      { Chris, you didn’t state or imply the last part of my comment }… it’s been talked about by other recently, and I can’t understand why folks bother with the 7 years of information fenn has stated, just to ignore or twist it into unravel knots. }

      All I picture is;
      Dad; Ok little Bill and Sally, we drove 500 miles from home to get to clues 1. Take a couple of pictures for your SB and get back in the car, we still need to drive to clue 2 then 3… go ahead and play angry birds on your idiot phone until we get there. And remember, when we get home tell mom you had a great time hiking in the wilds of nature.

      • He has said WWWH is the first clue. If, (Not far, but too far to walk.) is a clue then we would have to take another form of transportation other than walking to get to the next clue. How can we get there without driving? Unless it is a one-way trip I can think of no other mode to get somewhere in the Rockies that is too far to walk without driving.

        • Chris,
          Ok, I’m not going to the transportation part, But lets look at NFBTFTW another way… Park your sedan/motorcycle/bicycle, hitch your horse and walk to wwwh… yet from the first clue, the ‘poem’s path’ that leads you in the canyon down and home of Mr. Brown and no place for Meeky, is leading you the same way you came in from…

          So just for fun, you have point A~www at the bottom of your map… at the top [canyon down] of your map is your vehicle, point B… 1/2 way between wwh and the vehicle parking is point C~ Mr. B on the east-side of your map, and point D is Mr. Meeky on the west-side of the map.
          What design are these point creating? Does, “Not far, but too far to walk” mean the distance to hoB
          Or
          Could it be the distance is cut in 1/2 from wwwh and the vehicle, to the spot the chest lays in wait….no distance is know of until the clues are complete [ completed ] and places on the map are known.

          No need to travel the clues or be at wwwh… Just “follow” what the clues create, that will “lead” to the chest.
          ———————————————————
          “Those who solve the first clue are more than half way to the treasure, metaphorically speaking.”
          “..people have figured the first couple clues and unfortunately walked past the treasure chest.”
          -Searcher deciphered the first two clues and walked by the other seven… and the chest

          Just rambling and rumbling theoretical thoughts ~ metaphorically speaking, and no car need for driving the clues.

      • Seeker. I also don’t understand why people believe that Fenn is only telling part of the truth in his statements and responses, instead of accepting the simple meaning. There is no justification, in my opinion, for thinking that Fenn is only telling part of the truth or in any way misleading people.

    • I have been thinking for a while now that the last few clues are within the vicinity of the chest. For Fenn to lead anyone to within several feet of the chest the clues must be precise (not ambiguous like most think) and specific location, especially the last few to get one to the correct location and not general location. Here are some quotes will will look at to help us understand this.

      Some folks correctly mentioned the first two clues to me in an email and then they went right past the other seven, not knowing they had been SO CLOSE.

      After you solve the first 2 clues and go to the location of the first 2 clues, by this sentence Fenn would say you have been so close. Only Fenn could say what he means by so close, but for the other 7 clues to be within this vicinity of “so close” we can come to a conclusion that they may be rather close together at this point. Allowing a searcher to be lead to a singular correct location by the rest of the poem and not a general location. If the last 7 clues are within close vicinity to the chest they may be un-named places on a map. If they are in the wilderness and are un- named very slim chances they can be found on the internet, except possible by a high resolution map such as google earth.

      Can you give me one quote that will inspire my readers that it is possible to find your treasure? Something to motivate them? Something to tease them.
      FF: Those who solve the first clue are more than half way to the treasure, metaphorically speaking.

      If the correct solve of the first clue can get you half way there metaphorically speaking than with the correct solve of the first 2 clues will most likely get one within the general area of the chest. Fenn has said over and over to go back to the first clue, with him saying it as much as he has we can conclude its importance on finding the general area. With out this clue solved correctly most likely ever clue after will be incorrect leading down a path of incorrect solution for the other 8 clues, by which would make the blaze next to impossible to find.

      If you don’t know where it is, go back to the first clue.f

      • The Count,
        What you are describing could be that the first clue or two clues are a viewing point [ for lack of a better term ].. which is not out of the realm of possibility. The need to nail down the first clue might be more of a specific spot that a general location… a spot in a location of wwwh, maybe. For example… lets say wwh is a the triple divide [ or whatever you like ] But the specific viewing spot must be discovered to locate the other clues… the problem would be finding that exact, specific spot for the correct viewing of the correct clues… there might be more than one location [ direction] that fits many of the references of the other clues… hence, nailing down the correct “beginning” [ in this case~ Pacific, Atlantic or Hudson bay drainage ] or go back to the first clue, idea.

        Could this be why fenn stated; you won’t know you have the first clue correct until the chest is found? There are other similar choices to choose from…

        Which bring me to the clues themselves… If little Indy, or anyone, can locate the first clue or two clues with the poem and a good map of the Rockies… is this why she or anyone else can not get closer? Are there other options that could be similar in the same location, and it would take botg only to know which is the correct path?
        Another words… need to try each similar path until the trove is located on the correct path?

        Yet, we have the warning of: “I warned that the path would not be direct for those who had no certainty of the location beforehand, but sure for the one who did.” f
        Is that to mean, the “location” of the all the clues? The location of the first clue or stay home? or the location of the chest, and walk right to it?

        • seeker:
          Yes ff maybe going to speak after this publication
          Crossing words in the poem
          I replied dene, I’m tired, I’m already aware, weak
          I repondi, dene (done), Blackfoot, Blackfeet.
          Keyword: done- (dene)

        • The Count:
          I also like the idea of wwwh as a viewing point. My favorite one (today) is Rock Creek Vista on beartooth highway 212-boiling point of water. From there I can take in the view of the canyon below me. I have no connection for HOB with small exception of there use to be mining in the area and to “put in” can be defined as claim. I would possibly be able to see hellroaring plateau trailhead, which happens to be a little over 2 miles away, not far. Nearly 15 mile 40 min. drive though because of the canyon between points-probably too far to walk. Hellroaring can mean marked by tumultuous violence or carousing-no place for the meek. There is a small lake only about 1 mile from trailhead to the left called smethurst,The name derives from the pre 7th century Olde English elements ‘smippe’ meaning a smith, and ‘hyrst’, a wood-in the wood. Farther up hellroaring creek from that lake is Moon lake. A lake on the moon water high, and Sliderock lake
          sliderock aka talus slope, def talus as the pile of rocks that accumulates at the base of a cliff, chute, or slope-or heavy loads. Smethurst lake is about 1 mile from trailhead, 2 round trips at 1 mile an hour is 4 hours or one afternoon. Rambling explanation that doesn’t follow the clues in order! I just need to force them into the right order so I know for sure the TC is there (even though it probably isn’t), just like so many others have done with their solves. I too can come back with wonderful memories and no riches past that!

      • Count. I believe the distance from home of Brown to the blaze/treasure site is much shorter than the distance from where warm waters halt to the home of Brown.

        • TOM B: With the flame and the brown house are next, the brown house is just below the canyon, what you look for cease-coat, treasure is not far away, but it descends quickly the canyon, it is as I said cross the words of the poems upwards And so low -> #
          If you want to put here the poem

      • hey Count – your post here misses the juggernaut of logic per FF quote you posted…

        “Some folks correctly mentioned the first two clues to me in an email and then they went right past the other seven, not knowing they had been SO CLOSE.”

        Similar an exchange I have going on with Seeker, this quote literally indicates that the last 7 clues are locations, since AFAIK there’s no physical way anyone “went right past the other seven” if any of these are directions or distances. But FF comment could be figurative or direction/distance ‘hints’ that coincides location ‘clues’ (like WWWH and canyon down). Considering FF penchant regarding contiguous, any required direction or distance may be inherent clue locations, but this really changes the read of stuff.

  15. seeker – if you want try this – go to rio chama and rio grande and take it in the canyon (west) and then down (south) on road 96 till you get to coyote there you will see a large round space that is the eye of hob – as I have gone alone in there- you will see a large face of a deer that I think is hob but its just an opinion

    • seeker – from there hob imo you can drive your car or hike 20 miles to where the chest is at least that’s what I see and its my opinion

  16. Chris, your recent…

    “9 clues simplified. 1 Location, 2 direction, 3 distance, 4 location, 5 direction, 6 distance, 7 location, 8 direction, 9 distance. 1 Where warm waters halt. 2 in the canyon down. 3 Not far, but too far to walk. 4 Put in below the house of Brown. 5 The end is drawing ever nigh. 6 There’ll be no paddle up your creek. 7 If you’ve been wise and found the blaze. 8 Look quickly down. 9 your quest to cease.”‘

    has me pondering exactly how tight or loose we should expect any clue scheme to follow poem syntax and field features. My OP with location-direction-distance scheme followed poem syntax verbatim and I choose to take lines as clues. Note that it follows Dal’s 9 clues, except where Dal invented 7/7a scheme, whereby Dal has clue 9 as “look quickly down your quest to cease” and my OP scheme stops just previous at “if you’ve been wise and found the blaze”. Oddly, I don’t think an exact clue “scheme” is req’d, but an overall scheme seems paramount with blind instructions. Nevertheless, we now know WWWH is clue 1, and FF said something like stanza 2 looks like it includes 3-4 clues. I don’t recall exact FF quote, but as I recall, he did NOT admit stanza 2 has 3-4 clues, but more like…suggesting…it has 3-4 clues. Now, assuming FF would never lead searchers (too far) astray, we’re left with common conclusion that stanza 2 does include 3-4 clues, IMO (lol).

    I feel sorry for Dal and other veteran searchers that have been sweating this chase for years without benefit of recent FF clues (past 1-1/2 yrs or so). Elsewhere on this site, some have suggested how different their past approach would have been with what we now “know”, and some have suggested that trying to unlearn past prejudice is akin trying to consciously forget memories.

    I’m drawn to several FF comments regarding HOB and the blaze, the ones were he said something about telling anyone HOB would negate prior clues in poem, and same for blaze. So, like many, I can only conclude that HOB and blaze are…distinct…”things”. My nickel tour is starting at WWWH, drive too far to walk (at least 10 miles) and park below HOB, then walk over to blaze, and look down for hidey. Indeed, a fairly common assumption that’s gaining traction (but a Texas redneck probably had this day 1). As for tidbits like no immediate trail, consider a massive asphalt parking lot surrounding HOB area, wherein you park and walk to TC…there is NO trail, per se. So, I discount no trail “hint” as bogus and conclude final approach is merely hard surface without any distinct “trail”. IOW, exactly how do so many people get so close to TC without any “trail”??? I’m also buying into “below HOB-TC” distance is quite small. Now, for searchers that read this far, I’ll pitch you something that may have slipped past…recent comm on this site (somewhere, I don;t recall) has FF comment regarding “geography” word substitution, directed to wiki definition. Hmmm, I don’t recall FF ever mentioning wiki vs numerous google comments. So, check out geography definition on google vs wiki, then reread short google one a few times…

    • Matt,
      I’m curious as to why you feel a short version of Google defining what geography is vs a wiki which gives more detail is somehow better? They both state it’s about features of the earth and human activities. So why would directing people to read more information about this be worse?

      Does it really take additional Fenn words to figure out that the 1st clue starts at Begin and the 9th clue ends at Cease? This is clear, so why would veterans not understand this as well?

      • Anon:
        The friend problem is that every word has a meaning, and the only one who knows how to interpret the poem is his ff, but he gave us this mission of trying to decipher and understand his words, sorry for the tone expressed here

        • Rhonny, no worries, good banter is enjoyable, but here hardly see the cause for any alarm.
          The words are straight forward and the question that solves this is how did two groups find wwwh before ff made this claim if no one understood that Begin is the start?
          Do we really need a hand held to be told then that cease is the stop?
          But to wait for confirmation is going to mean someone else has the TC.

      • Anon – (now) we all know clue 1, but if clue 9 ends with “cease” (end of line 10) then “Houston, we have a problem” since we’ll need Charlie Manson’s scissors to get 9 clues from 10 lines. I think Dal did this as innocently as possible, and kept everything intact (merely combining 2 lines into 1 clue).

        I just read slowly thru first couple pages of wiki geography article and “keyword” I was hinting at is not there, maybe on last couple pages, but I got bored reading all that stuff. Oddly, my other word no longer appears in current google links for geography, yet was clearly in top open definition prior making recent post. Since you asked, and since link is buried somewhere in cyberspace, and since I love a fair game/chase, the word is geology, and this probably will remain under most searchers radar…

    • Matt brown:
      YES I have almost all, because I understood how the poem works, do not touch my poem ok, I’m going to rewrite your poem, to understand your book and the poem always use your words up and down like this -> #, but your Poem god 3 points and a few different words more work, search (dene Blackfoot, blackfeet-word of pome-done-dene) she is one of 4 women of the tribe, she will take ff to her final rest, cold is glacier, maideira That’s where the treasure is

  17. Chris – I’m not being a nitpicker, but one of your recent posts had HOB at “house of Brown” vs verbatim “home of Brown” which (in this chase) are likely worlds apart…

    • matt brown:Yes they are, and the treasure is not far away, the house of brown ta just below the canyon, meaning below – below, descend quickly to cease-coat, from there not far to walk, but this next

    • I may have misspoke and until the TC is found and the answers revealed we will never know if house=home or what it is that home means, or if that is even part of a clue.

  18. Matt- your very close ” I can only conclude that wwwh and hob are things”

    Didn’t f recently state (paraphrasing) that if you knew the location of the clues that it would be a map to the treasure?

    I apologize for the poorly worded attempted statement, but I take it to mean that each clue can be located as a point on a map, and if you follow those points, they will lead you to the treasure. If I read this statement correctly, this is a great hint as how to solve the poem.
    As far as your solution, I agree about your 10 mile drive, but then you must put in and go farther-before you look for more clues and begin your search in earnest. IMO
    I like the way way you think, and best of luck

    • Emmett – thanks for the nod…I’m still stalking from home and enjoying the ocean breeze here in SoCal, but think I’ve solved this riddle ONLY because FF has thrown out too many “hints” of late. As a sidebar, consider classic cop scenario where 10 pieces of info are “iron-clad”, yet cops lack any suspect/s. So, in rush to justice, the cops exclude 1 piece of evidence to catch/convict someone, despite 1 “iron-clad” piece of evidence proves otherwise. I’m still coming up to speed on chase history (takes months of reading) but the horde of recent FF hints is growing, and my spin has FF laughing to death over searcher failures (I can on hope my fast approaching golden years holds such entertainment). I suspect my location solve has been thought of by many searchers, but discounted quickly due to several issues including various poem clues, but mainly nixed due to 1 major assumption that nearly all searchers have maintained from their start. Tho no BOTG (yet), I’m in the NM camp of searchers, and I think NM residents have a major advantage with this chase, and I believe this chase was intended for them, not us…groupies (man, I’m kind).

      Now here’s my Mother Lode clue…I think Cynthia has been to both HOB and blaze, but rather casually, and is 1 of the 2 that FF was referring to regarding (something like) he’d been in the dog house if they knew. As I recall, FF comments regarding these 2 searchers suggest he knows one rather well, but not the other…as if he’s met one numerous times, but (possibly) never the other.

  19. Seeker – your “There are many comments [ some of which you have collected ] that tell of searchers “walked by,” ” walked past,” “went by” the remaining clues and/or the treasure chest…” raises a good question. It’s possibly minor FF error, since how else does “too far to walk” apply. Since poem is a riddle, FF poem and comments must be approached logically, reducing everything to logical scrutiny…all vs partial inclusive vs exclusive, false positive vs negative, etc. I also recall this FF tidbit, and “went past” would have been ideal buzz, but don’t recall his exact words AND how many times they appear (except that he’s said similar multiple times). This might sound lame, especially without ALL his exact quotes, but assuming he did say something like ‘someone got the first 2 clues right THEN walked right past the others’ how is this possible IF clue 2 is TFTW and someone is driving??? The only logic I can offer would be – per above – “past the others” is NOT all inclusive…does not say ALL remaining 7 clues. So, maybe someone got the first 2 clues right…was driving…parked below HOB…then walked right past the others. And that’s the virtue of JCM DB, and I’m overdue to get a copy

    • Matt brown:Yes to a type error (done) takes the letter -o- and put the letter -e, is a name of one of the 4 women of an ancient Blackfoot tribe living in borders, or better lines that intersect state x state, And also can be keyword (dene), the cold is mountain glacier, in the wood is where the treasure is

    • Matt ~’The only logic I can offer would be – per above – “past the others” is NOT all inclusive…does not say ALL remaining 7 clues.’

      *~ “Several months ago some folks correctly mentioned the first two clues to me in an email ***and then they went right past the other seven,*** not knowing that they had been so close. Alas, and dame fortune, so often a fickle and seductive wench, never spun her wheel to lure them back.”
      *~“There are several people that have deciphered the first two clues. I don’t think they knew it, because they walked right on past the treasure chest.”

      These are just ‘two’ comments on the topic… I personally surmise that the first two clues solvers [most of them] walked by the remaining clues and the chest… you can say that ~’“past the others” is NOT all inclusive…does not say ALL remaining 7 clues.’ …But I read it differently.

      • Seeker and Matt
        In response to Matts original comment;

        Matt ~’The only logic I can offer would be – per above – “past the others” is NOT all inclusive…does not say ALL remaining 7 clues.’

        If the route the the searchers were taking was along the top of a capital “T” say from right to left.
        The first two clues has them going across the top of the “T” and the third clue was intended to have them make a left turn down the leg of the “T” it seems to me that they just missed the last seven clues by making the single error.

        Just a thought.

        • Jim,
          Very logical and possible. The thing that bothers me is, All those who have figured the first two clues would had to make the very same mistake… possible, but is it likely?

          We have been told “a few” “several” “more than several” “many” in regard to the first clue[s] over the years and that number seems to be growing.
          ——————————————————-
          I have to wonder, is the “direction” of stomping not about a missed turn as much as a misunderstood placement of a clue… Just a thought. A whole other thought…
          ——————————————————-

          But lets play with what many consider the 3 clue as; NFBTFTW.
          We’ve heard 10 miles because of another book [ sucks for the folks who searched for three years prior ]. Heard a vehicle must be used from one clue to another. etc… and I get it… But are we oversimplifying the clues?
          Maybe an easier thought, but not seen in normal reading is… Not one right, but two right {turns} to walk? Just a thought.

          I mean, many want creek to be a water flow… Some searchers cross raging rivers, some got stranded, some didn’t make it.
          Do the word in the poem only reference the very first definition or common meaning?
          Examples;
          Far; distance… or right side [ right ]
          Nigh; near… or left side [ left ]
          Creek; a stream, brook, or minor tributary of a river… or a narrow passage

          I can’t help myself to bring this up again…found in the media section of this blog [SF podcast]
          F~ “…I looked up words and definition of words and changed them, went back and rebooted… it turned out exactly like I wanted…”
          or this Q&A in part; “Dear Mr. Fenn,
          The definitions of words seem to interest you. What dictionary, and year of dictionary, do you use for looking up words?” ~ wordsmith
          “…Now I will test you Wordsmith. Write down the full definition of the word “several.” Then Google it and ***learn that many of us don’t fully understand some of the words we use every day.f”***

          And paraphrasing more than one comment [for space]; He felt like he was an architect writing the poem, and each word is deliberate…. He crafted the poem… He didn’t write the poem an architect did…

          Maybe I’m nutz, but it seems the guy is basically telling us how he did it, straightforwards… are we really listening?

          In all honesty Jim, your T intersect is a good example of how we might be reading the poem wrong…imo, when it comes to consecutive order and contiguous. The “T” shows a design of clue one to clue two with clue[s] in between… can the poem be written the same way?… a clue mentioned later that is told to be in order, earlier in the design?…. i for example… clues one and two represent the line, a later clue represents the dot, but we are told/explained its[the dot] is prior to clues one and two.

          LOL I did like your T design Jim. If just for thought.

          • * * * * * * Seeker supposed – “. . . we might be reading the poem wrong…imo, when it comes to consecutive order and contiguous. The “T” shows a design of clue one to clue two with clue[s] in between… can the poem be written the same way?… a clue mentioned later that is told to be in order, earlier in the design?” * * * * * *

            “I don’t know that anybody has told me the clues . . . in the right order . . . .” ff

            JAKe

          • NFBTFTW the 10 miles thing came from his Moby Dickens interview about the preface of TFTW book.
            Male: Coming from the online site again, I’ve been asked to ask you, how many people have told you they’ve discovered the unintended clue in ‘too far to walk’ and how many were right?

            Forrest: I haven’t had anybody tell me the answer to that clue. If you read my preface it doesn’t take a genius to figure it out, I think what they’re talking about. There are clues in my new book that can help a person. Did I answer that question? Did it have two parts?

            He says is doesn’t take a genius to figure out what they are talking about. He also does not say that is an unintended clue or a clue at all.

          • Seeker – remember if 10 miles is TFTW then so is 20, 30, 40…miles, such that TFTW would be at least 10 miles.

        • Jim – I think there are some searchers who do drive right on past the area where the remaining clues are, like your ‘T’ example; this is one of several scenarios I considered a couple years ago.

          But I also think that there are those searchers who have been within 500 feet and 200 feet who indeed went by all the remaining clues and the chest itself. I personally don’t see the remaining clues occurring within a stretch of 500/200 feet.

          I know the idea has been presented that maybe a searcher might need to hike into an area and then circle back out to within several hundred feet of the road / parking area to get to the chest. And that the chest could then be up on a cliff or something like that, but there are a few comments from f over the years that a person could use to argue that scenario away; not that I am much into eliminating places as compared to having the poem take me to the correct location of the chest.

          In giving thought to the many different scenarios for what the place is like, where the chest is hidden, I have found that a number of the quotes and comments from f, when looked at together – and with a little application of logic and imagination, can help form a possible picture of what the place might be like. And that becomes very interesting when overlaying it onto the poem and considering what the clues could then be referring to.

        • In response to Jim,

          Don’t listen to the negative remarks on the T theory, you’re close to figuring it out, I believe. IMO & my spot, I go left to right over the top of the T. I take my left when I make my way down to HOB & that takes me within 20 feet of my location. Good luck Jim!
          -B

          • Hold on a sec, Birdy… There was only two “remark” to Jim was JCM and the other mine, neither of which was a “negative remark”… only following the same line of thinking and discussing alternatives thoughts.
            JCM open with; “like your ‘T’ example; this is one of several scenarios I considered a couple years ago.”
            My post Complimented [meaning; add to] Jim’s post.
            I don’t seen anything “negative” about either responses. Except it might not agree with your solve, apparently.

          • I’m truely sorry if I misread your statement or that of anyone else, it was not my intention of stepping on any toes here. In my defence, I’m dyslexic & do lose the plot sometimes. I was trying to help, that’s all. I don’t really have a problem with my solve being different, only means no competition for the search area. As a matter of fact, there is only one who has the same area & that’s very exciting to me. I have found that many here talk over my head & I don’t understand most of the conversations any ways, too confusing for me to keep up. With that being said, I won’t reply anymore, it seems to get me in hot water. I wish you the best!
            -B

          • Birdie;

            Please continue to post. So what if some people do not get what you say – That is their problem, not yours – JDA

          • Thank you both, JDA & Tom, that means a lot! I know I haven’t contributed as much as others but I think many would be surprised by what I’ve figured out. I have tried to help by giving my opinion & I hope some have been paying attention. I did email Mr. Fenn my location & a picture. I was very excited when I got a reply. Time will tell. I do plan on leaving some of the treasure behind for others to find. I think this journey Mr. Fenn put us on has changed so many & should continue on. As always…IMO,IMO,IMO
            Thanks, B

          • LOL, Birdy…
            Just because I responded that there was no negative comment made, you think I was yelling at you or something…and now are leaving the blog?
            Heck, I misread JDA postings all the time.
            lol, I think he’s always saying; he knows he has the correct solve and will finally find the chest, each time he post… and I can get him to leave..Um er.. I mean, you don’t see him leaving.

            I have been know to misread fenn’s comments as well… I mean, I know the chest is in Kansas… and the first clue is in stanza 1, right Zap?

          • Fine, Seeker, I’ll take the bait. You’re awfully feisty for someone who hasn’t figured out WWWH. Clue 1 is WWWH. I’m fine with that. What I am NOT fine with is anyone claiming they can figure out that spot on the map without figuring out the word that is key. Semantics as far as I’m concerned as to whether the keyword is a hint or a clue. Yes, I counted the keyword as a clue before hearing that 2013 NZ interview. Clearly Forrest thinks otherwise. Potato/Potahto. Makes no difference. Repeating myself, but I stand by my oft-stated opinion that no one will figure out WWWH without the keyword. That’s why I elevated its importance to clue-status, but I can see how Forrest could think the keyword helps solve a clue and therefore is a hint. To be clear, this is all my opinion, but I know I have the right WWWH and will never change it. It’s too obviously right to me.

          • Zap;

            I do not know what your key word is, nor do I care. Knowing what the correct key word is, in my humble opinion, will NOT tell you which wwwh is the correct wwwh.

            Finding the correct wwwh is dependent on something entirely different. I once thought that the key word (s) was (were) “the wood” – which does lead you to the correct wwwh. I am now sure that there is another word that is the key word, and it has nothing what-so-ever to do with wwwh… but that is just my opinion, and we each are entitled to our differing opinions – JDA

          • Hi JDA — first off, let me say I’m happy to hear your surgery went well, and am sorry that your recovery schedule will not permit you to join your family-team on your next Wyoming attempt.

            As for WWWH and the keyword, you are of course entitled to your opinion that the keyword won’t help you resolve WWWH. I only humbly request that you file this exchange away somewhere in the event that someone does find Indulgence in the next few years. I am confident that my position on the subject will prove accurate, though I will be the first to indulge in a huge helping of crow if I’m wrong.

            The bottom line is that no one is going to find Indulgence in 2017 (despite my earlier prognostications this year to the contrary). That ship has sailed, and you can unfortunately take that prediction to the bank.

          • I guess I did not find anything negative in the responses.

            If there was, then two negatives equal a positive.

            There is more to the idea of the “T” but I have a had time putting the ideas in writting.

        • Jim – love your T theory and have similar in my only solve, but I’m still choking on clue 2 vs 3 issues where ” they went right past the other seven” – ouch!

        • This is an interesting idea…that if we knew where people had been, we’d know where not to go. Couple issues tho, first we can’t possibly know where every searcher has been unless they’ve posted a story about it, and second, no guarantees they searched well enough to truly cross it off.

          That said, I’m an engineer and approach ttotc with logic and I’ve wanted to compile this list, but in a meaningful database/searchable way, actually the end goal would be to bring statistical analyses into it and be able to link probability of folks clue interpretations to the database. If you haven’t read it, you should look at the two college kids who did the GIS reduction project…they narrowed down the land area by 99%…(I think using within 1000′ of water is their biggest leap of faith, but not a totally insane assumption), too bad they still had over 500,000 acres in 4 states! But, nonetheless, if we could develop a way to 1) document each location ever mentioned by searchers, 2) link their clues to probabilities/other metrics such that you could assign ‘liklihood’ to certain places, then you could just maybe find a place no one has been yet.

          I’ve moved on from this idea, albeit, I still like it, just don’t have the time…JCM/Goofy looking at you guys. My new method (surely flawed in many ways) is to look at areas people just don’t seem to talk about much. I’ve got a couple in WY already, but no complete solve/eureka moments to justify a trip. My current solve is maybe 4-5 clues that COULD line up, but the blaze is where I started … I know, I know, it doesn’t work that way, and f said so, but this possible blaze has extremely interesting relations to flying and geography.

          • Tbug,

            The biggest flaw is searchers who have been at the correct location didn’t know… well, much of anything… Not even if they had the first clue[s] correct or not.
            If we use fenn’s estimate of 100,000 searchers [at one time] involved with the challenge, whether, BOTG or prior ‘general’ solve … Close has only been a happening and not an understanding.
            How could a study of either where searches have taken place, or where less searching is being done, remotely help at all.
            ————————————————
            1Q) Enthusiasm towards finding your treasure continues to remain strong.  So many people are enjoying the wonderful opportunity you have given them for such a bold adventure. Considering the many years the hunt has been going on, and from your perspective and interaction with searchers, do you feel searchers are becoming closer to solving the clues to the treasure, or further away? Do you feel over time, some searchers have forgotten beginning basics or thoughts they once had, and might benefit going back to them?
            A~ There’s a lot brain power being expended on the blogs by some pretty bright people Jenny, and it seems they are having fun. But the great preponderance of searchers don’t comment publically. Very few tell me exactly where they are looking so I don’t know how close they are to the treasure. ***I’ve said searchers should go back to the poem so many times that I don’t want to say it again here. ff***

          • I am not sure that that sort of database is workable.

            I have been searching my general area for 20 months, and 14 trips. Every trip I learned something new – I learned where it “Was NOT”. but, I “KNEW” that I was in the correct general area – all I had to do was fine-tune my solve.

            I have not found “her” yet, but hope to soon. Had I “Marked the area off the list” WAY back when, I wouldn’t be as close as I am today. Just because a general area has been “Looked at” does not mean that all of the information was available at the time, to do a “correct” search. Just MHO JDA

          • JDA – agree, workable probably not, a different approach? yes, but can’t prove either way.

            To Seeker’s comment: How could a study of either where searches have taken place, or where less searching is being done, remotely help at all.

            Answer – because no one has it, seems obvious to me, everywhere that has been searched has proven fruitless…can we define how much land area could be crossed off…no…but maybe the ‘general solves’ are not even close, no way to know. I’m just thinking looking in the same place as so many before has not revealed the TC…insanity…repeating actions expecting different results. Sorry JDA, I know you’re confident but statistical analysis suggests you’re wrong, unless your ‘area’ was so huge that so many trips were necessary to narrow it down, but that sounds like the opposite of what f has said ‘going with confidence to the spot’. I look forward to reading of your (teams) adventure, good luck to them/you.

  20. Seeker – kudos for FF quotes…

    “Several months ago some folks correctly mentioned the first two clues to me in an email ***and then they went right past the other seven,*** not knowing that they had been so close. Alas, and dame fortune, so often a fickle and seductive wench, never spun her wheel to lure them back.”

    Assume a searcher was driving down in a canyon to coincide clue 2, but drives past HOB, etc. Dissecting FF quote we find “went right past the other seven” literally indicates ALL of last 7 clues are locations, and if WWWH & canyon down are both clues, then all 9 clues are locations. However, “went right past the other seven” could be merely figurative in that they missed the remaining 7 clues (including finite TFTW).

    “There are several people that have deciphered the first two clues. I don’t think they knew it, because they walked right on past the treasure chest.”

    Assume previous searcher and path, and this FF quote yields far less restrictive conclusions, since searcher ONLY needs to have literally walked past TC.

    BTW, CC site has 1st quote as Sept. 26, 2012 which is a lot of water under the bridge…

  21. It was never clear to me… did that little girl in India get the first two clues generally or specifically … ex: 1) WWWH is a confluence of 2 rivers, 2) the bridge crossing the river is too far to walk to. OR WWWH is the ABC Junction, 2) the XYZ bridge is too far to walk to.

    Was it ever confirmed that her solve of 2 clues was general or specific?

    • on a human trail could be a deer trail and the trail cam offerd up a combination of proof but we dont need to know this info the poem and pages with words in his books are what we need to know I cant wait to walk on some more earth MR fenn has walked on or close to BUT e Again thats in my mind the proof is in the book for me the area may not be right then still its there to see for me thats a gift i dont believe the books are different but thats my sight on that book matter Mr Fenn would say look if you know where that tc is then go get it i think he made the playing field equal so its in every book to see what do you think i think it will be fair all the way around for every one i do wonder if he could solve this if he didnt hide it The thinker he is it would not be a problem so we must think like him

  22. He said there wasn’t a human trail in a very close proximity to where he hid the TC. There could have been wildlife trails, and I think that’s why he said “human”.

    • My primary focus with TC-trail is FF relating frequency and proximity of people to TC, and any add’l info (trails, terrain, etc.) only increase or decrease the “headcount” potential.

      So, THE question remains…why do so many people get so close?…both average guys and searchers. As I recall, FF infers two types of searchers have passed near TC, what I’ll call “active” searchers on a specific search, and what I’ll call “passive” searchers who…happened by. So, what is it about this place that seems to draw guys like a Starbuck’s in the middle of nowhere with a sign flashing: free coffee!

      • Matt,
        Is this the “active” “passive” information you’re talking about?
        Q~Mr. Fenn:  In the past when you have said that several people had figured out the first two clues and then went right past the other clues, would you say that they got lucky and just happened to go to the correct starting area, not fully understanding the poem, or would you say that they did indeed solve the first two clues by understanding the poem and clues? C
        A~Searchers have routinely revealed where they think the treasure was hidden and walked me through the process that took them on that course. That’s how I know a few have identified the first two clues. Although others were at the starting point I think their arrival was an aberration and they were oblivious to its connection with the poem. Playing a hunch is not worth much in the search and those who start out by looking for the blaze, are wasting their time.f

        This little debate has been around for a while… “Although others were at the starting point I think their arrival was an aberration and they were oblivious to its connection with the poem.” … to mean tourist or searchers not in search mode.

        Can I say for sure either way? Nope…

        But the question doesn’t ask or imply others as none searchers, and I ‘personally’ don’t think “others” are meant as tourist… “their arrival was an aberration and they were oblivious to its connect with the poem…”
        I think something from the book brought those searchers to the location of the first clue[s] and didn’t get there by understanding the poem’s clues.

        “Searchers have routinely revealed where they think the treasure was hidden and walked me through the process that took them on that course.”

        I would think that, ‘other’ searchers have e-mailed fenn and told him where they were as well, and just like those who ‘indicated’ ‘Identified’ ‘deciphered’ the first two clues correctly… the others did not, yet still arrived at the starting point by another reasoning… an aberration… something different [ from the book? From a SB? From a comment ATF? A hunch?]

        Just a different perspective… who knows who’s right. But imo the ‘others’ are searchers as well.
        Which begs the question; What the heck is it about the first clue, two clues, or even all the clues, that when on location searcher[s] don’t know what they are?
        I’m completely mind-boggled about clue references that are viewable, yet not seen and/or understood by searchers who live and breathe the chase.

        • Hi Seeker – It is this point of searchers not knowing what the clues are even when they are on location that makes the ‘a word that is key’ comment of interest to me.

          “Many are giving serious thought to the clues in my poem, but only a few are in tight focus with a word that is key. The treasure may be discovered sooner than I anticipated.”

          All that ‘serious thought’ by all searchers seems to be of no consequence if you do not have ‘a word that is key’ to help unlock or understand what the clues in the poem mean.

          For those who have my Chasing Words of Forrest Fenn – by Topic document, a review of the ‘a word that is key’ topic is worth some rereading of the comments and then some serious consideration for how a person should approach solving the poem.

          • JCM,
            “So I wrote a poem containing nine clues that is followed precisely, will lead to the end of my rainbow and the treasure.”

            Two words have always popped into my head;
            1. riches; or as I like to think, knowlege.
            2. end; or the end of my rainbow and the end is ever drawing nigh.
            There is a third that is a bit puzzling as well… cold.

            The intro to the poem as been on my mind since the start, and more so since the Q&A… 500 years… just the poem and no backstory.. Nope, Nope. What is the end of fenn’s rainbow?
            JHLAWH come to mind…

  23. Not in close proximity to a human trail…

    I think it’s important to keep in mind the wording. What does fenn mean by a “human trail”?
    Fenn also used the word path… our job is to understand the usage of the words as he intended.
    For example; keeping a secret and secret an item are similar but different. One means not to divulge information, the other is to hide or keep out of sight.
    Or creek to mean a small flow of water or a narrow passage.
    Is a human trail something made? a boardwalk? A road? a wagon trail?
    I doubt if I can call a foot-path a human trail in the same terms… My brick sidewalk to the my cement driveway is a human trail… the flatten grass and dirt disturbed shortcut through my lawn to my mailbox, not so much.

    But that’s just me. I mean my thoughts… others use the short cut as well.

  24. Charlie…you believe that a “shadow is involved from light of the sun at a certain time and date”….Eric Sloane died “waiting for the light to change” two weeks after he turned 80. Indeed. And why did FF go out of his way to suggest we should bring a flashlight and sandwich and then say a flashlight is not needed to find the TC in the daylight (unless we are looking in a cave, and cave is later ruled out along with mine and tunnel)? Maybe you don’t need a flashlight to find the TC if you are looking in the daytime, but you might need it if you are searching any other time when light is low, or about to CHANGE. LIGHT is the hint here. And perhaps the KEY word as well.

    • – People have become fixated on you telling them to bring a sandwich and a flashlight.  Are they just wasting their time focusing on these things as clues? 
      FF: They certainly are not clues.

      – You have said some things in scrapbook entries that seem too bizarre to be true, like the fact that you keep your jeans on when you shower.  Are you at times just pulling people’s legs?
      FF: Yes, I didn’t think that comment would fool many people. I was trying to make a point.

  25. The first clue = As I have gone alone in there
    As I have = have done so in the past prior to now.

    Mr Fenn said that people walked right past the chest – because they probably didn’t get the first 2 clues.

    Mr Fenn took it to a secret place that is “his special spot”. Private, a dear place.

    The hike you face is moderate but less than the driving involved in the poem, which is too far to walk, because you don’t need to walk that far to find it.

    Peace y’all

    🙂

  26. when Forrest said someone was within “X ft” of it…. He never said the “IT” was the “treasure chest”… RIGHT? He just said “IT”. “IT” could be anything…

    • Forrest has made several quotes where he says that people have been within 200′ of the treasure – Here is one of the many quotes”
      3Q) It seems I ask it every year during these Six Questions, but it is such a curiosity that I have to do so again. Do you feel anyone is getting closer? Do you feel you will get to congratulate the finder of your treasure within the next few years, or do you have a sense it will remain hidden for many more? Can you say?
      Searchers speak to me about their search places only in generalities. I don’t know that anyone has been closer to the treasure than about 200’. JDA

      • Well, I think your quote is off but f did mention something like within 12 ft of “it” once and I took your comment in that light.

        • Sorry – He did not sat “it” – he said treasure. Here is the quote: “I have not said that a searcher was closer than 12’ from the treasure. It is not likely that anyone would get that close and not find it.” JDA

          • JDA, look again. It does say ‘it’ in the last sentence. Nothing to prove what that it is referencing to. Plenty of theories abound though.

          • * * * * * * ff cast a line – ““I have NOT said THAT a searcher was closer than 12’ from the treasure. IT is NOT likely THAT anyone would get THAT close and NOT find IT.” * * * * * *

            Looks like about 8 clues to me . . . .

            Maybe 10 if you count CLOSE and CLOSER . . . .

            JAK3

          • yep… Second, I have not said that a searcher was closer than 12’ from the treasure. It is not likely that anyone would get that close and not find it.

            that just proves my point… THANKS

            ASSUMING he meant treasure is not saying “FIND THE TREASURE”…. he said “Find it”

          • James;

            Read the quote: He says: I have not said that a searcher was closer than 12’ from THE TREASURE” He then adds: It is not likely that anyone would get that close and not find it.” – What else can “IT” refer to other than the treasure that he just mentioned 15 words earlier? You are arguing just for the sake of arguing, or because of conformational bias – trying to force fit your view of how you want the poem to be. JMO – enough said. JDA

          • No JDA I’m not saying “just for the sake of it”… so IF I use your logic then what you’re saying is that Forrest literally means everything he says straight up???? I think there are plenty on here who will say NO to that fact… Do you? Or do you honestly say he means “What he says” is always “Implied”??? I say NO to that as well

            And this quote has nothing to do about the poem BTW… But if we use your logic on this then the poem would be sooooooo simple a child can figure it out. This whole BLOG is about opinions… Am I right.

            just IMHO though..

    • * * * * * * James (TZP) surmised – “when Forrest said someone was within “X ft” of it…. He never said the “IT” was the “treasure chest”… RIGHT? He just said “IT”. “IT” could be anything…” * * * * * *

      “‘IT'” could be anything . . . ” . . . like what, for example?

      (Just trying to understand where you’re heading with this line of thought, James.)

      JAKe

  27. Mr. Fenn,
    Has created such a historical moment in history and I just know In his memoir and DVD, the information that is revealed is going to open the eyes of the American people!
    At least that’s my most HO,
    So, Mr. Fenn, the closest thing I got on my incredibly time sensitive trip, were great wonder and a geocach box, with a wonderful letter in it and I think to myself who else but you would leave it there?
    But then again I could be hopelessly
    Wrong!
    I think back and wonder why the heck didn’t I take the complete box?
    Then I thought well it’s for the children who play these games, but many adults do also!
    IMHO now that I’ve had mts to think about it, Mr. Fenn how perfect!
    I just can’t wait to leave again, does anyone know how long is left concerning weather to hunt for the chest?
    Mr. Fenn, loved your hat at fennboree,
    I hope you had a noisy happy birthday!
    May you live to be 100+!
    Best regards, MJ

    • Martha – the rocky mountains are still in full summer, mid/late Sept will bring the changing of the Aspens to blazes and the snow can start flying at higher elevations about the same time. But given the climate changes we are experiencing I think this season may extend well into October, IMO. My anniversary is Sept 30 and every year my lovely wife and I go somewhere in the hills, not as high as 10,200′ but above our current 5,700′, and haven’t seen snow in 11 years…the day we got married (black tux ugg) was 85 degrees…at 7500′!

    • Searched last two seasons around 7-8,000 ft (CO/WY/Utah borders) well into October (deer-hunting season) with sunny days and mild temperatures. But anything goes with the weather of course.

      Three/four years ago we had Labor Day flooding on the mile-high CO front range, something I don’t ever remember happening before.

      From 21 August to 21 October the sun will be rapidly moving south (always moves fastest around the equinoxes, slowest around the solstices), so the light is getting lower, hours of daylight are decreasing, and mornings are getting cooler. Those effects will be very noticeable by late September.

      JAKe

  28. Seeker. What do you think “no paddle up your creek” refers to if not water? If you don’t mind sharing your idea on this.

    • Not speaking for Seeker but there is the proverbial saying up sh!# creek without a paddle, meaning be in an awkward predicament.

      • Not for Seeker either but…

        You’re right Chris…The old adage means ‘You have a problem with no solution’…f reversed the wording to say(more or less) that: ‘There’ll be no solution to your problem’…But reversing the wording doesn’t change the meaning as far as I’m concerned…

        Looking at it in this context. to me this line of the poem is saying simply that: ‘This line of the poem won’t aid you in solving your puzzle’…

        In other words, to me it is a ‘non-clue’ line…

        I know, I know – What about ‘your creek’, right?…I don’t think there is a creek per-say to be looked for, it is misdirection to me and words that can be discarded…Risky? Sure!

        But for me that’s the way the cookie crumbles…I can see a way that creek can be used metaphorically for something else as a part of a clue, but that’s all…

        You may beg to differ and that’s fine by me…It would be a very dis-interesting world if we all thought alike, no?

        • Is “creek” a misnomer? Would a very small rill or rivulet count as a VERY SMALL creek? Now that is the question. Something to think about.
          A creek (of appropriate size) probably IS involved, but then a very small tributary rill or rivulet may also be involved – as a product of “water high” – who knows – “Only the shadow knows”. – JDA

          • Valid point JDA…What we call a ‘creek’ or a ‘stream’ here in TN is often a ‘river’ out west, esp. in the mtns…Colloquial uses of terms vary by locales of course…So how would a born Texan and relocated New Mexican use the term ‘creek’?…Lots to consider in deciphering f’s meanings in the poem…

      • Maybe FF is hinting to a name similar to sh!# creek, such as Sheep Creek. (there are dozens of these in the Rockies). I have read comments where searchers were at the Sinks near Lander, WY, where the stream disappears into a cave. But I have not read any comments concerning the next canyon over, which contains Sheep Creek. The road above Sheep Creek makes sharp switchbacks about 19 times. Very striking in GE. There is a stone/gravel quarry near the top of the hill (heavy dump trucks and a water truck to control the dust). Skinny mountain roads with big trucks are no place for a meek driver. Everything fits except no visible blaze and no reason to start at the Sinks. There are signs of Indian habitation, which would interest FF.

        • Hi Bob, I just seen a site that described this location. They used the switchback as tracing wwwh because they would make a lot of W’s.
          Unfortuantly looking at all this stuff has become a blur, but it seemed this area was searched long ago and repeatedly.

          • If I ever get out west, the Sinks (Lander WY) is one of 4 for-sure places I will visit.
            Overhanging rocks/caves above Sheep Creek and above the Sinks canyon need to be closely looked at.
            The others 3 places I would look are Thermopolis WY, Afton WY and Golden CO. Golden is the one with a reason to start there.

        • You could say steep creek as well, or any other name that seems to work… No place for the meek, tired/weak to travel up an incline, to match the name of ‘steep’ line if thinking to meek being physical and not so much emotional.

          It’s all guessing and nothing specific.
          So what happens you consider heavy loads to be trucks from a quarry…? While some quarries last many years… many are turned into lakes with neighborhoods later build around them, or turn into a garbage pit for a town or city or county… and all happening within a short life span.

          I’m just wondering where the thought of a 1000 years down the road comes into play? when looking at the possibility, ideas, of a clue or clues.

    • TomB,
      That is one thought I’m not willing to share…

      I have shared creek to be narrow passage which doesn’t mean water is present. Hence, no paddle to mean no water.
      Yet, has Chris and Sam pointed out… there is a saying. We just need to know what the saying refers to.

    • I find it interesting that he said “your creek” instead of “the creek”. The use of “your”, to me, suggests that there are at least two to choose from. So, “your creek” leads to the treasure and the other, or others, don’t.

      • Tom, Good thought, can ya point me to the poem where it tells us which is which?
        It can’t be 50/50 guess, right? The poem leads us to the chest by following “precisely”.
        I’m not arguing the thought… I just need some kind of confirmation as how we follow the “correct” creek to be “your” creek that leads to the correct spot and now your treasure.

          • Chris,
            That’s what I figured. Nigh to mean left… But here’s a thought… IF two creeks empty into the same canyon down, assuming you started up grade and down a canyon, Below hoB, Do both creeks creeks empty from the same side?
            Nigh could mean let as to west… one creek empties on the east side, the other from the nigh, west side… right?
            In either scenario, does a searcher need to be at www, travel the canyon to locate two creeks or is GE good enough? [ in your solve that is ].
            Just curious

          • Seeker: I have not been able to come up with any solve that works for me. Either too easy or forced which tells me I am wrong. If “Put in below the home of Brown.” is a location and i followed the clues I will arrive at that location and have a left and a right direction. Big problem with that is very much like what you are saying because if i am coming from the north and arrive at that location my left is east and map left would be west. My best solve is just ignore the poem forget the 9 clues and go straight to cache lake. Cache-noun
            1.a hiding place, especially one in the ground, for ammunition, food, treasures, etc.

          • Seeker: if we can take FF words “The person who finds the treasure will have studied the poem over and over, and thought, and analyzed and moved with confidence. Nothing about it will be accidental. ” That would tell me that if drawing nigh means left then when we get to that point in the solve we will only have one option that would be to the left otherwise we would not be able to move with confidence. We may come upon a spot that every left points to only one creek.

          • Chris;

            Rather than “left” for nigh – how about near….”The end will ever be drawing nearer.” Ever meaning more than once, so the end will be drawing nearer, more than once… When you think you have come to the end, think again, and go a bit farther up the road or creek, and seek another end – maybe two or three or more. Just a thought. JDA

          • Chris;

            END can also mean boundary – so, the end or boundary will be drawing nearer more than once. JDA

          • We all know this is only speculation because drawing nigh may not mean left. It can simply mean what it says and the end of our chase is near. Drawing can also mean a pulling attraction (is this why we have magnetic declination lines on the map?). I have not been able to figure out which is worse yet, is it focusing on something that you know may be wrong or is it trying to figure out all the different ways to understand a single word/phrase and trying to figure out which if any may be correct.

        • Seeker. I think “no paddle up your creek”, “heavy loads and water high”, and “cold” tell us that the creek that leads to the treasure from home of Brown increases substantially in elevation and carries cold mountain runoff water. Also, I think “no place for the meek” applies to the creek.

          • Of course, a lot of creeks in the Rocky Mountains fit that description. Still comes back to having the right starting point for the search.

      • Not sure how you got two creeks from your. But Fenn believes he could have rode a bike there.
        I know, the next question will be, was he talking aboit a 10speed, mountain, or cruiser bike.

  29. Does anyone think that Forrest misspoke when he said in the New Zealand radio interview that WWWH is the first clue? He has never repeated that statement to my knowledge. He has never corrected it or repudiated it either, but it may be that to try to correct it would give away too much information. Any thoughts?

      • I don’t think he misspoke either, that does not mean he gave full information. BIWWWH is the first clue does not mean it is the whole first clue. It is possible “And take it in the canyon down,” is also the first clue along with BIWWWH. The word AND gives us that possibility, had he used the word THEN it would be different. And being a continuation where then stipulates next step. Just an empty thought from an empty headed person.

    • Many speculation can be made on this quote. Maybe it is the first clue, don’t really see how it could be without the rest of the sentence, remember there’s lots of places north of Santa Fe where warm waters halt. So how could you determine this to be a clue with just this one line of the stanza? Well you probably can’t, so what does it mean? Well probably a half-truth of Fenns, so what is the other half? Is it the first on the ground clue that can be found? Is WWWH only half the 1st clue or a third of the 1st clue? If it is then other quotes would contradict this quote such as few words in the poem are not useful to find the chest, we all would probably say there’s more than a few words in the first stanza so how could they not be useful and not be a clue because they are more than a few words in the first stanza? There are other quotes that may contradict it as well, so where are we? Just another quote that contradicts other quotes like we’ve seen before, without Fenn to clear it up because he would give away too much to say it again and other quotes are wrong or to say this one is wrong which would mean the 1st clue would be in the first stanza. I don’t think Fenn wants to retract anymore statements so you’ll have to decide for yourself.

      • A possible way to clear the contradiction is being aware of the possibilities that could exist to remove that contradiction.
        If you like sci-fi, then knowing how Star Gate Atlantis started would be a visual way to see how the above contradiction can be cleared with the 9 clues starting at Begin.

      • I think it’s much simpler than what you’re referring to, The Count. F said biwwwh is the first clue. That tells us begin=begin.

        Probably hint=hint. This means the first stanza has a hint somewhere in it. Simple.

        • I’m not one that jumps on the band wagon with everyone else. When we talk about hint vs clue about the poem I say tomayto tomahto, its a unimportant difference. I could be wrong, which I have been before, I’ll admit it. I’m just not willing to give up on stanza 1 holding a CLUE. If I do I might as well give up on stanzas 5 and 6 as well, where will that get me?

          Maybe I’m being like so many others where if I say WWWH by its self is clue 1 will destroy much of my thinking about the poem over the last year and a half, but either way you can’t deny that “I” in stanza 1 went in “there” which is a place. Most likely a place that is included in the correct solve.

          Either way I call this topic “half-truth” we all know Fenn does it and claims to do it.

          • Countessa,

            LOL!! Here in Texas, we jus call em ‘maters’. None a that high falootin’ lingo!!

            Well, I guess if you acceptin Fenn’s words means you gotta give up Stanza 1,5,6…then I would agree, you gotta keep those stanzas.

            Never been accused of jumpin’ on the bandwagon before!! That’s gonna surprise some old-timers around here!! 🙂

            Sure, you have to first know ‘what’ warm waters is referring to and ‘where’ they halt…..That is what the other stanzas tell you. But, if he had not put ‘begin’ in the Poem, no one would know to start there(the FIRST clue).

            Anyways, Good Luck To You, sweetie!! 🙂

            oh, oh, oh…..in my opinion

          • Well loco,
            This is just going to take us back to the disscusion of what “it” is from stanza 2. Is “it” the chase, the first clue, a river, a mountain range, the CD, either way there’s far to many decisions to decide on its own when there is so much content left behind. Could I look at a line of the poem being a clue sure I call it my first search season which felt so one dimensional. Maybe some day I can De-evolve my thinking back to those days but before than I have much more thinking to do about the first 2 clues which has yet to include HOB. We can discuss this all day making counter points back and forth which probably is not going to change either of our minds at this point and when or if I think the way you do now about “it” you could very well think the way that I do allowing us to go back and fourth on this subject which is probably half the fun…
            until then we will probably just agree to disagree until Fenn speaks more on the matter but until then I’m going back to the beginning of the poem…

            Ain’t nothing wrong with jumping on a bandwagon as long as its going in the right direction whatever that may be 😉

          • The Count, two points to ponder about…

            First, how do you describe what a clue means in the Chase and what does a hint mean? What do both achieve for the searcher.

            Secondly, logically f has to have all the searchers start at the same place on the clue path. That being where it says begin…wwwh.

            Now, that doesn’t mean there’s nothing in the first stanza to help one decide on the correct wwwh. But any info in stanza one has to be considered a hint cause how f defined a hint in his Chase. Like I said earlier, stanza 1 uses the word hint in it. Whatever is the answer to that hint will be a location (probably) outside the area of where the correct spot of clue 1 is in relationship to the tc hiding place.

          • The Count ~”Either way I call this topic “half-truth” we all know Fenn does it and claims to do it.”

            I know fenn says he embellish a little, like to bend words that are in the dictionary… but If I recall correctly… this 85% truth thing is about nonfiction writers. I’m not sure I agree with your ‘fenn… claims to do so’ in-regards to ATF comments or the poem; such as “it”

            IT is our job to interpret what the poem is telling.. and fenn as stated he was not being misleading with the poem.

            On a similar, but slightly different topic of clues vs. hints…. how many clues does it take to understand what or where a location is?
            Example; if stanza 2 has four clues, does it have four locations or maybe just two derived from the clues?
            I mean, I can read the poem as basically four locations in total.
            A simple breakdown is stanza 2~ two location or one connecting location… stanza 3~ with one location… stanza 4 with one, possibly two, closely connecting location.

            LOL but you’re right about one thing… the topic debate will go on.
            ‘allowing us to go back and fourth on this subject which is probably half the fun…’
            If we’re not having fun… we should find a new hobby.

          • Fundy,
            I knows there’s a quote around here somewhere from Fenn about hint vs clue, probably at loco’s fingertips, how about you help us out with this one quote master before JCM or tarryscant steps in Lol. It says something like a hint helps you with a clue but a clue helps you find the chest or treasure.

            Seeker,
            You been sneaking over to CC reading my post? Your last post might suggest so, either way I know you posted there many moons ago and left for what ever reason, more water under the bridge right… Well we going back to the discussion of “how many answers does it take to make a clue” or location. Maybe a better question is how many lines in the poem makes a clue? Might lead back to the disscusion of if each sentence is a clue? Yeah another age old debate each sentence is a clue? Well if were going back there why not talk about punctuation? Fenn included the punctuation for a reason, why? Is the punctuation more structure for his architecture, the architecture for each clue? How else are you going to figure out how many answers equals a clue?

          • The Count, well I don’t have f’s quote offhand but I’ll try to paraphrase. A clue gets one closer to the tc and a hint helps with the clues. By default, I think that hints don’t get you closer to the tc than where the correct first clue location is. This is why I feel that the first stanza can only have a hint and not a clue.

          • Hints to the answers of the clues…Very possible and one thing I see little to no reference of (maybe because I am fairly new to this) is the map. With all the “so called additional” clues FF has given is the map from the book needed? My guess is yes it is.Is it a town, river, or road on the map that help decipher a clue? Why are there lines for map/magnetic north? Why is there a listing for all the different public lands? Why is there Purple wording on the map for locations managed by NPS yet no other locations marked in the color of the other public lands BLM ,USFS ,FWS ,or Tribal areas?

            And a big question which may be a monster of a clue and the person who can answer has no idea of what the potential value of information they have…

            Can anyone at Benchmark maps tell us what FF specifically requested to be included on this map when he asked for this it to be made for his book?

          • * * * * * * Chris queried – “Can anyone at Benchmark maps tell us what FF specifically requested to be included on this map when he asked for this it to be made for his book?” * * * * * *

            Don’t know, but it’s clearly derived from the “Mountain West” map that’s near the front of Benchmark’s Road and Recreation Atlases for Colorado, Utah, and Wyoming (and probably some others that I don’t happen to have).

            Compare with any of those and you can find the customizations made. No way to tell how involved ff was, or how specific his specs.

            I seriously doubt, though, that there’s any way he could have been surprised that Canada didn’t end up on it.

            JAKe

        • 9 clues in the poem. BIWWWH is the first of the nine clues in the poem. What if the first stanza points to a clue outside the poem which tells us where WWH is near ?

    • I always took “Begin it where . . . ” in the poem at face value – and it’s the first instruction in the poem that can be “followed precisely.”

      Can’t think of any reason to doubt his statement in that interview.

      Why do you ask?

      JAKe

    • There are hints, and there are clues. The hints will lead you to the clues, the clues will lead you to Indulgence. Could stanza’s 5, 6, and 1 be the hints that lead you to the “Directional” clues in stanza #2,3 and 4? Think about it before you blurt out an answer. Call them “Informational Clues” or “Hints” think not of names but of content, and it begins to make sense – at least to me. IF stanza’s 5,6 and 1 ARE hints that lead to the clues – then BI,WWWH IS the first “Directional” clue. Could this be what Forrest is saying when he says that it IS the first clue? I think it is. What do I know, with my one and only remaining brain cell that works – JDA

  30. Seeker. What do you think “no paddle up your creek” refers to if not water? If you don’t mind sharing your idea on this.

  31. Seeker – your “Close has only been a happening and not an understanding.” is burning my ears. BTW my active vs passive searcher was regarding TC but also would apply to WWWH.

    BTW Anon, when chasing my buzz word recently, I noticed Merriam-Webster has a tag piece entitled “indulge your inner word nerd” which left me wondering whether FF saw this…

    my read on several words (probably clues)

    “no paddle up your creek” – hard to paddle upstream, so many think walk upstream, shallow stream, etc….but I’m with those thinking don’t go up the waterway that you’ll encounter

    “in the wood” – I saw Sandy & another point out “in the wood” means bullseye in darts since dart board bullseye is traditionally hardwood vs remaining dart board is bristle (harder for darts to stick in wood than bristle). However, in the wood is also old UK buzz for brew reserved for you when you arrive (paid for to reserve, and in the wood meant still in the barrel…old term prior bottling)

    “wise” – I’m guessing something owl like…maybe viewed from a perch (eagles hunt while soaring, owls hunt from perch) or some type of metaphorical owl feature like large eyes meaning binocs req’d or GE magnification req’d. Ideally, I’d prefer owl petroglyph, but these appear quite rare

    TFTW – ~10 miles or more

    • Who knows, perhaps visiting secret creek would be a better option

      But I’ll leave you with a truly unknown word phrase which seems to escaped most since I said it.

      Terrific is derived from terror. Terror is a synonym of terrific. However terrific isnt a synonym of terror.

      So the fun begins if a clue is something like. Begin it where terror happened. Do you believe you’ll understand it should be, begin it where terrific happened. Since looking up terror won’t get you to terrific?

    • Idioms; a group of words established by usage as having a meaning not deducible from those of the individual words.

      How many examples can you get from the poem on group words?
      Let use Brave and in the Wood; some like brave as in fearless or courageous, when brave can simply mean taking on a challenge.
      Wood alone can be ‘petrify’ wood[ and maybe why it’s not plural for woodland] or opposite of brave… in the wood is a term for being in the saddle [ when saddles were all wood framed ] a saddle is also a mountain pass.
      Thinking geography and geographical locations … could this line be hinting a location of petrified wood [ lasting thousands of years] in a mountain passage?

  32. “i would advise new searchers to look for clues in my poem and try to marry them to a place on a map.” 2/4/17

    A place on a map, means just what it says. A clue is a specific identifiable place. A hint will help you locate and identify a clue.

    in my specific solve,
    Stanza 1- no clues
    stanza 2-3 clues
    stanza 3-2 clues
    stanza 4- no clues
    stanza 5-2 clues
    stanza 6-2-clues

    So I believe that the clues are not the nine sentences, they are not out of order, and there are no filler lines, and the poem is straight/forward. There are a ton of hints that you must identify and weed through, to find the nine specific places on a good map.
    I hope this helps those with an open mind. Good luck to all. IMO

    • Emmett,
      Why 9 places?
      The quote seems to imply ~try to marry them[clues, plural] to a place[singular] on a map.”
      The clues are contiguous; to mean touching, adjoining, sharing a common border, or neighboring… I’m leaning toward touching.
      Line that up with a geographical feature and the CD pops as a place, sharing common border, adjoining, touching…

    • That quote tells me next to nothing, I can see it being 9 locations like Emmett says or a singular location like Seeker says, or anything in between. Seeker is correct in saying the quote would imply a singular point but imply is not definitive. If I am able to figure out clue #1 and marry it to a place on a map and also do the same with clue #9 I have found clues and married them to a place on the map, could be the same place could be a different place. So the quote tells me there is more than one clue (any amount from 2 to 9) that point to one or more locations on a map.

  33. Thank you for the replies.

    J A the reason I ask is that I see a clue in the first stanza that helps me a lot. In fact, without it my solve doesn’t work. I hate to give up on it. So I am with the Count on this, I guess: All but a few words are useful and, since there are more than a few words in the first stanza, there must be a clue in there. I guess my choices are to try to reconcile the contradiction, ignore it, or stop being bullheaded. All are difficult for me.

    Also, I would say that the poem contains clues not hints. Clues that are ordered in some way to lead to the treasure. Hints, I believe, are found elsewhere and serve to reinforce what you may have already figured out from the clues. The hints are not, themselves, arranged to lead to the treasure.

    Anyway, I’ve already told you more than I know so I’ll shut up.

    • Zap,
      The poem actually says… “And *hint* of riches new and old”… how can you say ‘the poem contains clues not hints’? The comment from fenn is; “All of the *information* you need to find the treasure is in the poem.”

      LOL doesn’t that alone change your thought that there must be a “clue” in stanza one, and not just a hint?
      On the flip side of that thought, why can’t another part of the poem help with knowing what and where wwwh is?

      “The clues should be followed in order Curtis. There is no other way to my knowlege.f ”
      “… wrote a poem *containing* 9 clues that if followed…”
      Does that say; the poem is 9 clues? I mean, you can have a 12oz. full glass, that contains 9 ounces of water and 3 ounces of something else, right?

      Geezzus, “Not under water” and some fight to the death that was misleading or wrong. “WWWH is the first clue” and still some want to argue it can’t be… not in my perfect solve.
      Dear Mr. Fenn, would you tell us what state the chest in wait lays… I want to see all the excuse of why that can’t be… Thank you in-advance, Seeker.
      PS. How many blazes are there? Apparently the poem mistakenly only mentions one. Oh! and btw, how deep is a hole?

      • I have my own motto concerning this poem riddle treasure hunt.

        “Think like Forrest, not like me.”

        We all have learned a lot about him from the books and all the many articles, interviews and comments he has done.

        The entire poem is also a riddle, and a treasure guide. So what do the words in the riddle mean to Forrest?

        “Think like Forrest, not like you.”

        • FF might even e able to tell us what one of the hints are without giving away much of anything. Riches new and old, what are riches? Something valuable would be a simple answer. Just a few examples- Gold and other minerals, check. Trees, fresh water and other natural resources, check. Bison, wolves and other wildlife, check. And to put most of these in both old and new perspective would be easy. Petrified tree and sapling, Grey wolves used to be in Yellowstone (old is relative 50+years ago can be considered old) and were reintroduced in 95. Native trout which have been there for a very long time and spawning locations. Old mine and the TC which will be new riches for the finder.If riches new and old helps me find WWWH it sure doesn’t help me much.

          • For me, you are making it too complicated. The simplest definition is: Forrest took Indulgence “in there” (Where-ever that may be). Forrest can keep it a secret where Indulgence is hidden, but he can now hint of the riches – both new and old – that are contained in the bronze box.

            True, “riches new and old” could also refer to a beautiful, magnificent valley, once carved by a glacier – leaving behind a string of five beautiful lakes, cliffs that reach to the heavens, sandstone cliffs, remnants of an ancient time when sand dunes was all that was here – fossil rich cliffs that speak of a time when this was once an inland sea – granite cliffs, honed smooth by the grinding of the glacier that carved this valley – carving into the very first rocks that cooled from when the earth was in its infancy. True “Riches new and old.” Just musing – JDA

          • JDA ~’Forrest can keep it a secret where Indulgence is hidden, but he can now hint of the riches – both new and old – that are contained in the bronze box.’

            Are there any objects placed in the Bronze Chest that are connected, or have meaning to the place the chest is hidden? ~ Mike
            No Mike, everything in the chest is straight forward and visual, except my autobiography, which some might find dull. Oops, I forgot, there is one thing in the chest that I have not talked about except to say I don’t want to talk about it. It is something saved especially for the person who solves the clues. I think that person will be pleased when she sees it. f

            I posted the Q&A as to the ‘but he can now hint of the riches – both new and old – that are contained in the bronze box.’
            Hint of riches new and old are in the poem… I’d doubt that the poem is hinting at the contents of the chest at all… not for the place the chest lays in wait or any references of the clues.
            I mean, the book does that, right?
            So IF, And hint of riches new and old is not one of fenn’s “9 clues” then there needs to be a reason for this line other than a clue.

            Could the line be another definition or meaning? “Riches” of knowledge of the past and present? Not unlike fenn’s telling of a trip to the Sahara where he found conflicts of war [WWII] next to what could be artifacts from 30,000 years earlier…

            Many don’t think that word usage is going to be much help with the clues… But for me, and fenn’s ATF comments… straightforward for many is too simplified and they over-complicate the clues by unknowns / heavy research / those kitchen sink solves outside the poem… Bible verses, Latin, codes etc.

            IMO, a single definition or meaning isn’t going to crack the case wide open… there need to be more flexibility when thinking about how the words and wording of words react to each other… Then marry them to a place.

            I often ponder what fenn would think about his own poem if he didn’t think about it in the first place.

          • Seeing that you put wolves & Yellowstone together, I thought I would share with the Yellowstone searchers. Near the east entrance of the park, around the ranger station in Lamar Valley, one of the mountain ranges was home to a wolf called, Brown. This might help someone, he was part of the original pack of the alpha male in that area became a pack leader I believe. It’s been awhile since I read this information but its close enough to get my point across. Hope this helps.
            -B

    • Seeker: I think you meant Joe, not me. I’m a firm believer that there are plenty of hints in the poem in addition to the clues.

    • * * * * * * Joe wrote – “All but a few words are useful and, since there are more than a few words in the first stanza, there must be a clue in there.” * * * * * *

      Ahh – okay.

      Though I take “Begin it where. . . .” at face value as the first clue, Joe, I don’t doubt that there’s also information in the first stanza.

      I also take at face value that if I knew the geographic location of each clue, it’d be a map to the treasure.

      I do think that a lot of searchers make too much of “hints” as distinct, discrete, identifiable . . . elements. Or at least make more of it than the poem’s designer did. “Hints” is just a word for useful information, descriptive or otherwise, a word that took on power because it was used by the chase’s designer.

      See the movie Life of Brian for good examples of how that word-power works . . .

      JAKe

        • * * * * * * Fund-Design said “Actually f said hints should be what “serious” searchers should look for . . . .” * * * * * *

          That one doesn’t ring a bell.

          But I have spotted more than a few serious searchers carting around wheelbarrows full of hints, so maybe f meant “stockpile” rather than “look for”?

          JAKe

  34. My thoughts on the nine clues are as follows;

    The 1st stanza tells you where the “warm waters halt” are located, where to begin your search, the starting point. This clue / hint will eliminate all but the correct WWH. This is the hardest clue of all. Remember, Fenn said, to the effect, the clues would get easier as you get closer.

    The 2nd stanza tells you to “Begin it where warm waters halt…..” This is the actual starting point of your search for the chest. From WWH you will following the rest of the clues to the finial hiding spot.

    My thoughts on the clues; they run clues 1 thru 9 and match stanza 1 thru 6, also matching the sentences 1 thru 9.

    These are just my thoughts and could easily be completely wrong.

    • Jim,
      If there is information in the poem that ‘tells’ what the ‘first clues’ is, does it ‘have to be’ prior, or another way of saying it, in the first stanza?
      While we’re at it… If other information[in the poem] tells of ‘all the clues’ [ and many believe stanza 4 is the end of the clues ]… it seems reasonable to me “that information” must be one of two things… Prior to a clue… example [only an example] no place for the meek could be water high, or paddle could be heavy loads, idea. {seems a bit of a stretch in my mind}
      Or
      Information that tells of clues can be anywhere in the poem… example; in the wood could be heavy loads.

      Now we are back to a dilemma~ the book will help with the clues and we are told good tools or references are GE and/or a good map… Maybe… the information in the poem is all we need to “find” the treasure… and the poem does not give answers to clue references.

      But here’s the kicker… where do we find the place to start? No I’m not talking about the many wwwh clue, I’m talking about where “the location” of that, and all the clues are at. Does the poem give us that little tidbit of information [where to be at], and if so, does fenn call it a “clue” or information to get us started?
      [note; I’m not talking about states or even sections of. That is much too large an area and still leaves guess and hunches… “the location” means just that, where the clue[s] are.]

      • Hi Seeker: in my opinion, it’s only the clues that must appear in order in the poem. Any order is fair game for the hints.

      • Finding the first clue is for sure the hardest. Sadly the people that found it, either by luck or otherwise, do not even know they did or else they would still be out there.

        I have asked the same questions as you about the poem. Do words in poem in other lines help us figure out clues? I have played with a lot of things. Even lines helping with stanzas. The first line helping with the second stanza because the stanza is all about going and so forth.

        Do we need to know what one thing is to find another? The problem is there does not seem to be anything in the poem to tell us how to solve it. If we have nothing telling us how to solve it how do we know if we are right? FF’s statements like “Nobody is going to happen on that treasure chest. You’re going to have to figure out the clues in the poem and go to it.” tell us that it is virtually impossible to guess and figure it out. So what could FF have put in the poem to help us? Did he put anything at all to help us keep from guessing?

        • Without sounding cocky, the answer, at least for me, is a resounding YES! In “the wood” tells you to look in a particular geographical area of Wyoming for wwwh. Once you have the correct wwwh, it is pretty easy to find the canyon, find the place to put in, find the hoB, find the “meek” place etc. Finding the correct “water high” was a bit difficult, but I finally found it. It was difficult, but not impossible – or so I hope. JDA

          • Aaron: he doesn’t know. But JDA feels it works for his overall solution which is why he sticks with it.

          • Sorry Aaron, were I to tell you the answer to that, a particular place in Wyoming would have more visitors than they could handle. Sorry, that is something that you will have to figure out on your own. JDA

        • Hi Aaron,

          “Finding the first clue is for sure the hardest. Sadly the people that found it, either by luck or otherwise, do not even know they did or else they would still be out there.”

          Just because you solve WWWH does not mean you’re done. It means you’re just getting started. And while I’m sure there are people who have been to this spot completely unaware of its significance, I think there are plenty who were there by design, not accident. And because they solved it the way Forrest intended, they have no need to consider an alternative WWWH.

          “The problem is there does not seem to be anything in the poem to tell us how to solve it.”

          That’s what makes it a difficult (but not impossible) puzzle. When you look at the poem, it just looks like a bunch of simple words, many of them quite generic. But there is more going on. Forrest didn’t just *write* the poem; he constructed it.

          “If we have nothing telling us how to solve it how do we know if we are right?”

          In a well-constructed puzzle, there will be unambiguous indicators that your are right that eliminate the guesswork. Remember: Forrest said you would be able to “move with confidence.” In my opinion, Forrest’s puzzle works precisely as he intended.

          • “In a well-constructed puzzle, there will be unambiguous indicators that your are right that eliminate the guesswork. Remember: Forrest said you would be able to “move with confidence.” In my opinion, Forrest’s puzzle works precisely as he intended.”

            Zap, I do understand that this is the general consensus of thought and I hope you are right. There are a lot of people that have missed those unambiguous indicators, including myself. I thought I was on the right track for a bit but now I am rethinking. I guess I must think deeper.

          • Zap ~’And because they solved it the way Forrest intended, they have no need to consider an alternative WWWH.’ ….. Did they?

            Yep, I believe there’s more going on in the structure of the poem, as you put it; ‘he constructed it.’

            So, if folks did decipher the first clue completely and understand it… why does fenn feel they didn’t know or understand the significance?
            fenn has mentioned that he looks for key words or read key words [emails/blogs?] and that’s he knows the first two clues were deciphered [ and probably the same for the first four clues ]… But something still gotta be missing from those clues, other than just finding them. [even if a searcher can eliminate other of the many wwwh’s in the RMs]

            Then we have the Q&A about reverse engineer wwwh from hoB. Well, if you know what hoB is why would you be concerned about www???… Could it be that you can’t ‘know’ hoB unless you know the prior clue[s]? Is this why Little Indy “can not get closer” ~?~.. deciphering a single clue is not complete (completed?) enough to just stomp to the next clue?

            Another words [ in fenn’s words ] the searchers didn’t “dwell enough” and didn’t “nail down” the first clue… they only deciphered what it refers to, but not the why or what its importance might be?
            Sorta like the baking a cake analogy… you might have the first ingredient, but you still don’t know what to do with it… you need all the ingredients and know the correct process to have the correct outcome.

            That cake recipe took 15 years to get just right… I’ll bet the finder will really enjoy it… we just need to know what color the bear is.

          • Aaron: I think the key to success is thinking of Forrest more as a puzzle designer and less as a writer or poet. “The blueprint is challenging so the treasure may be located by the one who can best adjust.”

          • Seeker – In regards to your statement that FF is looking for key words and that tells him people have correctly identified WWWH, I think his statement was more to the effect that he knows people have been within 200 feet of Indulgence because they tell him specifically where they have been (WWWH, the canyon, HOB, etc.) I concede that giving FF a specific canyon name, for example, can be construed as giving him a key word, I just think the words (places) are specifically named and not just alluded to. Am I just splitting hairs here? LOL
            IMO

          • Bowmarc,

            The same can be said for the first two clues… key words that told fenn the clues were deciphered… and the process the searchers took fenn though… telling him exactly where they been.

            A name? Well, the name game bugs me personally [ not saying wrong ] But to play with names as location [ as many have ] leads to many places with the same or similar names in every area of the known are of where they chest lays in wait.

            I don’t think that is a narrowing down process at all… as much as, a slightly different version of darts.
            standard darts rules vs. around the clock rules, etc.
            To be honest. I’m not really looking for the first clue, as much as, the location now. No not a state… imo that is nothing more than a dart toss as well… I’m looking for wwwh within a specific “location” to eliminate all the other possible wwwh. That doesn’t mean I have deciphered the clue yet. It means, I need to have a location TO decipher what it is in reference to.

            I mean, just look at the possibilities; waterfall, merging rivers, snow cap mountain, glacier, basin, desert [ at one time ] and on and on before we even think about ‘where’ one of those possibilities might be located.

            If that is the way to approach this challenge? then imo, it’s nothing more than a pot luck dinner… you’re never ‘certain’ what you’re going to end up with.
            LOL I hardly think about the first two clues or distance from the chest in that manner… I want to know why so many can be on site, have some clues deciphered, walk by remaining clues, still being within reaches of the chest… and not know notta.

            It seems to me, they all did one thing the same…

    • Jim;

      For over a year I was in the camp that said “One sentence = one clue – starting with the first sentence. Last winter, I changed.

      I now believe that one can move stanza #5 and 6 to on top of stanza #1. So, “So why is it that I must go And leave my trove for all to seek?” – is now your first sentence.

      From this line down to. “…And hint of riches new and old.” are ALL HINTS.

      Clue #1 begins at ,”Begin it wwwh, and the nine clues end at, “Just take the chest and go in peace.”

      Since I feel that the poem’s architecture is a circle, I do not believe that I am “Messin'” with the poem by moving stanzas 5 and 6 to above stanza #1.

      To me, this is a much more logical format. The “riddles” begin with a question – ALL of the HINTS are at the beginning, and all of the CLUES are at the end, and the clues END by telling you to “Just take the chest and go in peace.” – MUCH more logical to me. – but what do I know? – NADA – JDA

      P.S. Happily, to all, I now have Internet again – JDA

  35. Does anyone think that when the chest is finally found and the solve revealed, that there will be a clue (or clues) that the general search community views as a bit of a stretch?

    For example, if HoB turned out to be (making this up) Acorn Valley, sure Acorns are brown, but as HoB… Meh.

    Is it possible this is why it hasn’t been found g because a key clue gets dismissed as unlikely and/or not worth BOTG?

    • Just my personal opinion, but I think that the general comment will be, “Now why didn’t I think of that?” I think that many will be surprised how almost every element “Falls into place”. Hope that we will all know very soon. JDA

      • JDA – In your solve, does the road you take go into the canyon, or is it separate from the canyon? You are not required to answer of course, but I am curious because I am seeing some variations in my solve.

        • There is a water course that goes down the canyon. There is a road that parallels the water course – crosses it at one point but continues to parallel the water course. Hope that that is clear enough. Once you “put in” below the hoB you take another road that also parallels a different water course. JDA

          • Thanks. I appreciate that you shared. It would be crazy if our areas were the same, but good luck as I know your team will get there before I can go again. If you have it right you do deserve it !!

    • The thought has crossed my mind as well, Fmc. But in the end, I am staying resolutely optimistic and agree with what JDA said.

  36. Can anyone verify that this was an actual quote from FF? I have it in my notes but it could have been someone paraphrasing but doesn’t sound like it:

    “It’s not a matter of trying, its a matter of thinking. Sure I mean, people figured the first couple of clues and unfortunately walked past the treasure chest.”

    If this statement is in fact legit then it really makes me wonder what clue number 2 is. FF said something to the affect of there being 3 to 4 clues in the second stanza. Let’s assume clue two is: And take it in the canyon down,
    If that is the case then people are walking the canyon down if they walk past the rest right?

    Let’s say clue two is instead: Not far, but too far to walk.
    Same thing, people are walking out too far to walk and walk right past the rest?

    Clue 2 cannot be PIBHOB right since there are at least 3 clues in that stanza.

    Does this mean BIWWWH is where we start walking?

        • The link can be found in the “media coverage” by clicking on “most important info” in yellow on the right hand column of any page. You have to scroll though and find the correct SF podcast by using what i did post. My note says it will be heard around the 11min. mark to the 11:40 mark.
          Apparently I didn’t grab all of it… sorry

    • Aaron. My conclusion is the searchers that walked past the treasure must have, at a minimum, gotten past home of Brown. Assuming, of course, they were following the clues in order. And, unless the treasure is within 200 feet of home of Brown, they must also have found the correct creek to follow at home of Brown.

      • The poem says it’s too far to walk from where warm waters halt to home of Brown. So, the walking portion of your journey would begin at, or somewhere after, home of Brown.

        • It makes sense to me that you do not start walking till PIBHOB or later but the math doesn’t add up for that if what FF is saying is true. 3-4 clues in the first stanza and people get only 2 clues and walk past the rest? Why are they walking after only 2 clues? What is the second and what is the third clue if that is the case? PIBHOB should be the 3rd or 4th clue, judging from his statements.

          • Aaron. My advice is to not get caught up in trying to number and count the clues. Just start at “begin” and solve them in order. Since home of Brown comes before the blaze and treasure, we can deduce that the searchers that walked by the treasure must have solved both where warm waters halt and home of Brown (assuming they were following the poem clues).

          • I agree that starting with the first and following them in order is the best way. I think though that it would be helpful if we can figure out, based on statements and number of clues in the first stanza, were we would start walking. I also agree that put in seems like the logical place to start walking.

            I’m not sure though how you can say: “Since home of Brown comes before the blaze and treasure, we can deduce that the searchers that walked by the treasure must have solved both where warm waters halt and home of Brown (assuming they were following the poem clues).”

            Paraphrasing FF: he said people got the first two clues, and said there are 3 to 4 clues in the first stanza, and that people may have gotten 4 clues.

            Going by this we have no way of knowing for sure if anyone ever got PIBHOB. Only either ATIITCD, or NFBTFTW.

          • TomB…if they walked by the chest they at least walked the path (possible they did not solve the clues, but still walked the correct path), f has said there are no shortcuts, and you must follow in order/contiguous. So, IMO, those that walked by were on the right path, but may not have ‘solved’ the clues. So to Seeker’s point…how is that possible? I keep thinking scale changes to much smaller than most are thinking…a puddle is an ocean to an ant. How can they solve the first 2 (and Lil Indy) but not the rest and still walk by the TC? Is this more Forrest measurements…’in close proximaty’ NFBTFTW, now we have ‘walk by’…they could have been 200-500-who knows how far and ‘by’ could still work, thoughts?

          • I know nothing, but according to my solve:

            Begin it where warm waters halt
            and take it in the canyon down
            Not far, but too far to walk
            put in below the home of Brown:

            About 10 miles driving – but could be floated.

            From there, it’s no place for the meek,
            The end is ever drawing nigh;
            There’ll be no paddle up your creek,

            About 10 miles – Driving to parking place.

            Just heavy loads and water high.

            If you’ve been wise and found the blaze,
            Look quickly down, your quest to cease,
            But tarry scant with marvel gaze,
            Just take the chest and go in peace.

            Two trips up and back – Each one way trip about 3 + miles = 6 miles X 2 = 12 miles hiking.

            12 miles seems like a long trip for a 79 or 80 years old man, but that is how it works out…or at least that is how I hope it works out. JDA

          • Using the above – One could have parked his “sedan” and started the hike. The searcher could have walked (hiked) past the “Heavy Loads” and “Water high” – walked past the “blaze” – hiked past the place to look quickly down walked past the tarry scant and the place to marvel gaze, and the chest. – Easily could have walked past 7 important “clues” or 7 important places or places to do something. Just my way of looking at the poem – But as I said, “I KNOW nothing.” JDA

          • JDA, based on what you wrote I am assuming that you believe that the clue Forrest mentioned in the preface of TFTW is that 10 miles is the distance for TFTW?

          • Blex

            The answer is yes. So what about the people who looked for 3 years without this information? I had already decided that it was between 8 – 12 or 15 miles anyway, between wwwh and hoB – so from my wwwh location I had drawn an arc – down canyon – at 15 miles, and had already spotted my hoB before I got my copy of TFTW. It turned out that my hoB was at almost exactly 10 miles, confirming what Forrest said in the preface. – JDA

          • I hear you, JDA. My original solve had TFTW coincidentally about 10 miles away from WWWH exactly too. Hasn’t panned out yet for me though!

    • Clue 2 cannot be PIBHOB right since there are at least 3 clues in that stanza. You are probably right but it is also possible that PIBHOB contains 2 clues. For example put in can mean claim so that clue means we are looking for a claim (mining maybe) if we are in an area with many claims the next clue tells us which one BHOB would be the second clue in that line.

      • Chris;

        Be careful of what you hear. If I recall correctly, Forrest did NOT say that there were 3 or 4 clues in stanza #2. What he said is that it SOUNDS LIKE there are 3 or 4 clues – a BIG difference in my book. Just because it may SOUND like there are 3 or 4 clues, does not make it a fact. BE CAREFUL – JDA

        • In his CBC interview he said it sounds like 3 or 4. A year later this happened…Question posted 7/4/2014:

          You told a reporter that there are three or four clues in the second stanza. Were you telling the truth? ~Alison R

          I don’t know what it is about girls but when I say something they automatically ask if I’m lying. Shame on you Allison R. I promise you that I get more things right than most reporters. If you were here I would make you take a dose of castor oil. Besides, if I lied to the reporter what makes you think I would tell you the truth?

          Sorry Alison, I’m off my soap box now. No, I was not lying but I don’t remember a reporter asking me such a question.f

          • I have always thought that too but if that is true how do people get 2 clues and walk past the rest? He has said went passed them before maybe that is what he meant?

          • Aaron,
            Unless the area is a one way in and out… That would have searcher walking by the clues in and out, passing the chest to get to and from their wwwh point.
            Simply saying… all the clues could be between the area you park at and wwwh. Which could mean… the quest to cease is not far, but wwwh is too far to walk, you put in below the hoB prior to wwh, you just need to know wwwh is, and why, to understand hoB… line of thinking.
            Remember; “I warned that the path would not be direct for those who had no certainty of the location beforehand, but sure for the one who did.” f

            So in a way, I’m starting to see how others say, no walking until hoB… but not so much their theory solve as ‘not far but too far to walk’ must use a vehicle to travel clues.

          • I think I understand what you are saying but correct me if I am wrong. You are saying that they go past the first clue, park, and then walk back in the direction of WWWH? That would mean that maybe they got the first two clues right then parked in the wrong spot and still managed to walk past the remaining clues. If they parked in the right spot they would have had to get more than 2 clues right, assuming the parking location is a clue.

          • What if he is talking in future tense? From the canyon down, as you walk this canyon, he looks up, telling himself it’s not far but man, it’s too far to walk, out there, put in below the hoB? So, from this canyon down, from there it’s no place for the meek. It is more plausible that the 3rd clue is something to do with the meek, given his lil Indi comments. He has not said hoB is a clue needed to find the treasure, and lil Indi can put in, walk, or whatever with any hoB. Seems she would not go where there is no place for her.
            If you try to individualize the clues your in trouble. There are a lot of clues out there, remember f has 10,11,12,13 on his website. The poem could have 14,15,16,and 17, who knows? So which 9 is the path?
            The point is if you try to solve for clues, you are making it almost impossible. The poem must be solved, it is what will take you to the treasure. He said it, only then you will know what a clue is. Again, all we know is that line 5 is a path clue, and the blaze is a clue. I could say there are 3-4 clues in stanza 2, but they may not all be clues of the 9.
            The only thing we know about NFBTFTW is that you will be walking a long distance. That’s it.
            He has never said what hoB is, just that it’s our job to solve for it. The blaze is meant to throw the searcher off, do you really think it’s something you will see? The blaze could be anything. What if it is say landscape but cannot initially be seen, what if it’s found when you look down at your computer, what if it is something that points to the solve of the poem? There are so many what if’s that at sometime, you have to just go back to the poem and solve the poem, and then see what you get. The rabbit hole is trying to solve each and every clue individually. Common sense is about as important as imagination and knowlege…
            On the flip side, the poem may only have 9 clues, but it’s not the 9 clues we have to follow precisely, it’s the poem, which contains 9 clues, that must be followed precisely. It’s the double-talk that misguides some, don’t fall in the hole, it would not hurt to just solve the poem. Forget clues, hints, maps for now, and just solve the poem. Then, map it, analyze the hints and clues and set forth. Just remember, it’s futile to drive around looking for the blaze. Why is that? Somebody could get lucky, right? It’s because initially, you can’t see the blaze. That’s the throw off the searcher comment, faces no direction comment, and the I don’t think anyone will find the blaze before WWWH comment.

        • I believe he has said both went past and walked past. A person can mentally walk past anything. Another point is when FF said he knows of searchers who have gotten the first 2 clues right does in no way mean they only got the first two correct. Searchers may have gotten the first three clues right but FF only said the first two because saying the first three may be giving too much info. Especially if one of the searchers was Dal, I kind of get the feeling FF likes to mess with that guys head. If Dal sent an email to FF and had the first three clues in the solve correct went looking and didn’t find it then I can easily see FF leaving out that little peice just to make him think he may have 1 and 2 right and needs to look for a different 3.

          • C’mon Chris, ~ ‘A person can mentally walk past anything.’?
            Fenn has said searchers tell him where they are… some are very specific… I’m not going to post those comments, you should already have them.

            Chris ~’FF said he knows of searchers who have gotten the first 2 clues right does in no way mean they only got the first two correct. Searchers may have gotten the first three clues right but FF only said the first two because saying the first three may be giving too much info.’

            Fenn has stated.. [ prior to the most resent comment of four first clues, possibility] ..that no one has given him the correct solve past the first two clues… that’s another comment you should know about. Especially if you have a web site that is posting fenn’s quotes to date…

            I mean, your comments are not even an opinion… they’re completely wrong, by fenn’s own commented and statements.

          • Seeker: Thanks for correcting me on the 3 clues possibly being right as incorrect. I have only been looking at this for a few weeks so unlike some who have been on the chase for months or years I am missing a lot of info that is available but I have not gotten to or have forgotten while having a drink or three. It is highly unlikely I will ever have BOTG so the last thing I want to do is give false information.

          • Seeker: On the mentally walking past let me try and explain a bit better, and yes this example will be weak but I think show how it can be possible.
            Lets say I have a solve that has the first two clues correct but 3 is wrong meaning most likely everything past clue 3 is wrong.

            My first two clue answers (hypothetical) are Highway 212 answering WWWH, And take it in the canyon down,Not far, but too far to walk. From vista point observation sight I can take in the view and see many places that are not far but too far to walk because of the incline of where I am at.

            Now we diverge, my clue three answer leads me to Hellroaring trailhead and the correct answer is Hellroaring creek we passed a little while ago. clues 4 plus in my solve lead me to search Hellroaring Lake, the correct solve leads to Smethurst lake.

            If I had a legit solve for Hellroaring Lake as where the TC should be I can sit here in OKC and mentally walk myself right past it. If I actually have boots on the ground I can be searching Hellroaring Lake where my solve leads to and be within 500 feet of where the TC which is in or around Smethurst Lake.

            Without answers to clues 3 and past, there could be a number of places in the Rockies where this kind of situation (while not probable) is possible.

            There may be millions of paths you can take to get close to the treasure, there is one that will for sure get you to the treasure.

  37. BirdieB. Your opinions count, so don’t hesitate to share. Until the treasure is found, no one knows for sure what the correct interpretation for each clue is.

  38. How do you think Forest handled the preservation aspects of the TC? If he though that the chest might remain out in the elements for up to 1000 years, what do you think he did to preserve it? Surely he wouldn’t just sit it out on top of a rock somewhere. In that condition, it would only last a few years before the sides and top disintegrated.

    • MJF;

      Do a little research on “Bronze”.

      3500 BC. Around 3500 BC the first signs of bronze usage by the ancient Sumerians started to appear in the Tigris Euphrates valley in Western Asia. One theory suggests that bronze may have been discovered when copper and tin-rich rocks were used to build campfire rings.

      That says that archeologists have found bronze objects that are at least 5500 years old. I am sure that Forrest chose well. He needed to do NOTHING to ensure that the “Bronze Chest” would last until it is found.

      Google is GREAT – Try it, you might like it 🙂 JDA

      • You are probably right, Forest would have thought about longevity of the TC. So, I guess we can assume that the entire chest is bronze; hinges and all. However, its not water-proof. Otherwise Forest would not have worried about putting his autobiography into a glass jar.
        Having said that, I still wonder if Forest was concerned about the “physical appearance” of the TC over time. Seems like he might place the TC in a location that would present a pleasing appearance to the finder. If I were to hide something this valuable, stuffing it into a dirt-hole would be out of the question.

        • Remember that Forrest has said:
          “Nobody is going to happen upon my treasure chest. They will have to figure out the clues and go to it. Somebody could find it this summer, or it could be a thousand years. The guy I hope finds my treasure is a redneck from Texas who’s lost his job, with a pickup truck and 12 kids and a wife to support. But nature can impact the location, you know. We can have flash floods, earthquakes, forest fires. I don’t have any control over that. I’m a bystander now. ”

          “Nobody is going to happen upon my treasure chest. They will have to figure out the clues and go to it. That pretty much says it all – JDA

          • YesJDA, I agree; he did say there were no short cuts and that there was only one path to his knowledge, (paraphrased and spoken on seperate
            Occasions) . How about a redneck equipment operator-truck driver and his dog instead? I sure hope i don’t disappoint him…of course there are many people I would help with the proceeds gained from the catapult- like mechanism that will follow the recovery of Indulgence. Well, that’s my vision anyway.

  39. Mr. Forrest Fenn,
    I would just like to say that I have never in my life studied something so diligently and consistently. I’m amazed that you or anyone could put together something this complex even in an entire lifetime…the poem, the books, the path etc. It has caused me to dig deeper, stretch farther and know myself and my abilities in a much greater way than I have only hoped for.

    The creation of The Chase reminds me of other great feats completed by men of previous generations; one in particular, namely Henry Flagler. He built mansions, palaces, and a railroad through Florida and across the waters of the Florida Keys. The very details of just one room in The Flagler mansion would keep one man busy for a lifetime today.

    I am honored to have been invited and to have participated in such a soul searching adventure and historic event that rivals most modern challenges put forth, in that it has inspired and produced much fruit not only in my life but in many others also.

    Mr. Forrest Fenn, you have indeed made a strong, passionate and beneficial mark on my life and you my dear Sir will never be just an asterisk, but rather like a star that shines forever and ever as promised in The Book of books.
    With Great Admiration and Respect.

    “Ah, but man’s reach must exceed his grasp, or else what’s Heaven for?” – Robert Browning

    • Boaz, I agree with you on the complexity of the poem. I’m surprised at the amount of information that is packed into those 6 stanzas. It’s the hardest puzzle I’ve ever worked on. I’m glad that all you need is the poem (and a good map) because if I had to read TTOTC as many times, and with as much care, as I’ve read the poem it would take many lifetimes to accomplish.

  40. Jim. You said “The 1st stanza tells you where the “warm waters halt” are located, where to begin your search, the starting point. This clue / hint will eliminate all but the correct WWH. This is the hardest clue of all. Remember, Fenn said, to the effect, the clues would get easier as you get closer.”

    I think you’ve got it perfectly right on this point. I am totally convinced that the first stanza is not there just as an introduction; it’s the key to unlock the starting point.

    • Jim & TomB: 100% concur. When everyone gets on their high horse and says “Begin it where warm water halts” is the first clue, I would counter: “Fine. Tell me the unambiguous clear answer to that 6-word clue using no other information.” It’s impossible. A thousand places are equally valid, so there is not way you could proceed with confidence to one of them. And I would even go a step further and say that based on just those 6 words and the restrictions of the four-state area, the correct answer would not lie in your top 1000 choices.

      Forrest says the hints will help you with the clues. I say that the hint for WWWH is essential to solving it.

      • Zap, Epsom… That’s all I get from that line. Begin with Epsom. You know I’m into the letter/ number values thing, so for me it’s the sum of e+p, or 4. So you are right in my opinion, with those 6 words, no way. This is the hint though. It isn’t so much vital to solving for WWWH, the poem I believe does that, it’s just part of the (if I can, Seeker) checks and balance system for the WWWH. Actually, it’s lines 5&6, the whole poem, nailed down, and a couple of after comments along with history of the area. Lol, never looked at it that way but that’s what I get. Virtually impossible to solve with just a few lines if not just the one of the poem.

      • hey Zap, your recent “Jim & TomB: 100% concur. When everyone gets on their high horse and says ‘Begin it where warm water halts’ is the first clue…” slipped by under the radar. Sure, there may be a hint in stanza 1 that help locating WWWH (or stanza xyz) but I’m guessing (like many) that the biggest “hint” for WWWH is built in with waterS halt, not water haltS…

      • Hi MB,

        “Sure, there may be a hint in stanza 1 that help locating WWWH (or stanza xyz) but I’m guessing (like many) that the biggest “hint” for WWWH is built in with waterS halt, not water haltS…”

        Concur that waters plural is a huge discriminator. It is why Dal (and many others) favor the point where the Firehole joins the Gibbon to form the Madison because it’s much rarer to have two warm bodies of water merge at one spot than just one warm one dumping into a cold one. They just don’t take it far enough. It’s much more than two waters in my opinion.

        • While I like Dal’s idea of WWWH’s and it sounds plausible that waters being plural can mean multiple waters this definition of waters does match that idea. waters: flowing water, a body of water; the verb version: to furnish or supply with water by streams or through a man made furnishing of water.

          I don’t think this can be overlooked since FF looked up difintions of words and changed the poem based on them

          • I think similar ways ,Aaron, on definitions. My way of thinking this poem and words is like a chicken foot path. Each word as a clue or hint may have 3 definable usage meanings but only 1 is the one. This is where the word that is key comes in. The word that is key gives the one intended meaning and the “toe” path to take. Otherwise, I may chose the wrong definition, chose the wrong ” toe” path and walk right past it , lol. IMO .

          • That is a very good point. Definitions are important, especially finding the right definition. A key word that works with numerous definitions would be extremely helpful I would think.

          • Thanks Aaron. It’s worked for me in thinking ,formulating and hindsight. Along the lines of a ” theme”; definitions should follow a theme pattern. IMO. In the tradition of Seeker, I am similar in measuring all FF words and quotes much the same. Not only a word that s key but also all of FF’s words are key. IMO .

            “I warned that the path would not be direct for those who had no certainty of the location beforehand, but sure for the one who did.” f

            I hope to be going to my location soon. I am just trying to get a friend to come.

          • I like your thought process. If you can’t find someone to help let me know. I’d love to make another trip myself and have recently been focusing on new area in MT that I’ve found interesting.

          • Thanks Aaron. We can certainly talk about it. My email is already in search for me”. Though this would be together. I am trying to go soon.

          • While you guys are on word meaning and definitions [multiple meanings and usage] … you have to wonder if some lines, if not most, have there own definition. One Ex. might be “If you’ve been wise and found the blaze” At first and 102nd reading of this line it seem relatively straight forward, right… you found the blaze Yiiipppeee!

            Now, think of it as a definition… wise as knowledge and found as find… so are you just wise as in the find of it or have you “discovered” why it is?
            Wise + found = an understanding of what you have.. you discovered, not discover [ past tense, and prior ].
            So you might think that “finding of the blaze is a clue…I think its a word usage and we need to know what that means.

          • Yes, Seeker. Lines may have there own definitions. I have my interpretations of some lines, defined by the within the line or sentence architecture/ theme. A definition in a dictionary acts merely as a guide, where as the theme and poem structure is more of a map and compass, to me. The word that is key, in my opinion, is limited to a portion of the poems words and sentence meanings and not every clue or hint. To me the word that is key leads to meanings definable within a theme. The word that is key is synonymous to , say maybe, 5 clues within the theme. A substantial amount but not all encompassing within the meanings of clues or hints in the poem. IMO . Others are independent of the word that is key, simply denoted by its purpose within the sentence structure . It’s just how I have come around to working the poem. I have no idea of anything for sure, it is just my may of thinking.

          • To me, definitions of words is THE key to solving the poem. I have found 47 of the 166 words in the poem that have had “special” meaning, and an additional five from outside of the poem. But then, what do I know? Probably NADA – JDA

          • Seeker;

            Wise + found = an understanding of what you have.. you discovered, not discover [ past tense, and prior ].
            So you might think that “finding of the blaze is a clue…I think its a word usage and we need to know what that means.

            Well said Seeker. – JDA

          • Very good point Aaron. I refer to when Forrest said that “most of the clues” were there when he was a kid. Most to me means maybe one clue might be man made since Forrest was a kid. I think I read this on the J Kyle website.

          • Frankin,
            Most of the clue comment could be reference to something that once was… Something that was physically present at one time, but only the remnants [scant] remains. Could this thought be why a ‘comprehensive’ knowledge of geography ‘might’ help?

      • Jim. I am going with “riches new and old” to guide me to where warm waters halt. At this time, I do not want to divulge my specific location because I haven’t yet been able to search my suspected treasure location. But it is in New Mexico.

        • Tom B

          If “riches new and old” work for you, that’s great and New Mexico, well “OK” with me. My guess or guide from the 1st stanza is the 2nd line, which puts me in Wyoming.

          I’ll never get to where I think the chest was hidden, oh well.

          Good luck in your search.

  41. Page 133 ttotc – There are also other subtle clues sprinkled in the stories. “Subtle clues”.

    So there are clues in the stories, subtle. This is important – clues in the book. And the poem says hint of riches new and old. “Hint”.

    I used the book to help me with wwwh, whether I’m right or wrong. My mind could not grasp wwwh just using the poem, but I guess it’s possible to determine wwwh just using the poem.

  42. What I get from the walking past 7 clues, etc. is this: I believe the distance from home of Brown to the treasure site is walkable, and is much shorter than the distance from where warm waters halt to home of Brown. And, since Forrest knows they were within 200 feet of the treasure, I think it is likely that these searchers were following a trail from home of Brown that goes in the general direction of the “creek”, but is not close enough to the creek that the blaze can be recognized from the trail. That’s how I see it.

    • That could be right Tom. They could have been walking the right way and because they didn’t identify PIBHOB FF isn’t sure that they got that clue. Hence the maybe four.

    • I think when Forrest said they “walked right past the next 7” he is being figurative here. Personally, I don’t believe that after the first two clues, all of the subsequent clues are in immediate proximity. I would guess it is more miles than meters, but I don’t yet have that answer. Just my intuition on this one.

      • Just some big book reading today, if I may but in, from NFBTFTW Chapt 7, bottom of first paragraph, “it was an easy three mile walk from the gate to the lake, even carrying enough gear to stay a couple of nights”.

      • And, I suspect that you could drive closer to the treasure if you knew where it was. Just my opinion, of course, but I think that Forrest walked less than a half mile from his car to the treasure site.

  43. I come around every once in awhile to read what I have missed. It seems I have fallen behind a bit. I guess I have become complacent in my own thoughts and ideas. Them there thoughts seem to run round and round with no where to go except around the corner.

    “Look at the big picture there are no shortcuts”

    1) https://collections.centerofthewest.org/treasures/view/first_scalp_for_custer

    2) http://www.historynet.com/1876-george-custer-not-scalped-yellow-hair-first-scalp-custer.htm

    I am stuck in neutral not going anywhere soon. Perhaps you can pass me or knot. “I give you title to the gold”

    An Indian Scout and A Saint
    MX

  44. Sometimes moving can be a challenge. That is what I am trying to do. I hate when I do that. Hopefully, I am making a wise decision.

    There will be:
    “If you’ve been wise and found the blaze,
    Look quickly down, your quest to cease,”

    1) https://centerofthewest.org/2015/08/18/sculpture-guide-buffalo-prayer/

    I know it came from a university in 1985. I just cant remember where I read it. “Knowledge crowns those who seek her”

    An Indian Scout and A Saint.
    MX

  45. Aaron, your recent comment is interesting…

    “It makes sense to me that you do not start walking till PIBHOB or later but the math doesn’t add up for that if what FF is saying is true. 3-4 clues in the first stanza and people get only 2 clues and walk past the rest? Why are they walking after only 2 clues? What is the second and what is the third clue if that is the case? PIBHOB should be the 3rd or 4th clue, judging from his statements.”

    and what I was harping about a few days prior your post. Indeed, I concur the math doesn’t add up (clue count issue), but I’m with Chris on the walked vs went past verbiage, and allowing that “walked” was a figurative expression. Furthermore, as I recall, the walk version was 2012 vs went version was 2013 (eidetic with numbers got yrs, missed months).

    • I agree; “went right past” was meant as a figurative expression. I think FF was tell us that those searchers got so caught-up in their zeal of finding the first two clues that they totally ignored the fact that the other clues existed and had relevance. Kinda like stopping for a red stop light when you’re still a block away from it. IMO….

  46. I think about feeling better when I go to where warm waters halt. Its the best cure around and in what goes round. Cant wait to play in the snow.

    An Indian Scout and A Saint

    MXI

  47. Many people seem to agree for a couple of reasons that the 9 clues start with Begin it where warm waters halt and end at Look quickly down, your quest to cease,
    That leaves us 14 lines that may help us determine things like the correct WWWH and other clues.
    Here is one connection I see. Not far, but too far to walk. + I’ve done it tired, and now I’m weak.
    Breaking it down I’ve done it tired=I have done it in the past but it wore me out a bit=not far. And now I’m weak=I am not as young as I used to be and would not be able to do that anymore=but too far to walk.
    Another is Look quickly down, your quest to cease, + I give you title to the gold. And/or Just take the chest and go in peace. This can bee seen as The TC is right down there grab it it is yours. While the connection is there there is almost no information on clue 9 if ( Look quickly down, your quest to cease,) is clue 9. It would however tell us a line or two we should not be focusing on to give us information on other clues.
    And take it in the canyon down,+ But tarry scant with marvel gaze,=If you look down at the canyon for a second you may freak out. Perhaps pertaining to going across a bridge that is high above the canyon?
    Begin it where warm waters halt+So hear me all and listen good,= Warm waters halt at a noisy area you will need to listen closely to hear me. Warm in this context meaning to become ardent, enthusiastic, animated, etc. like at an area of rapids or a waterfall which can be noisy.
    Keeping in mind FF has said the 9 clues are in order but (to my knowledge) the rest of the poem that may be helpful is not necessarily in order I am sure there are other connections.
    Any thoughts on my thoughts are welcome as well as any connections you may see and are willing to share.

    • I have stated my theory before, but will comment one more time. What are hints, and what are clues? The only way I have been able to make any sense of it is:

      Move stanzas 5 and 6 to above stanza #1.

      This puts the line with a question – “So why must I go and leave my trove for all to seek” – as the first line – and all riddles begin with a question.

      It also makes “If you’ve been wise and found the blaze,
      Look quickly down, your quest to cease,
      But tarry scant with marvel gaze,
      Just take the chest and go in peace” – the last line of the poem, which makes a LOT of sense to me.

      Since I see the architecture of the poem as a circle, I do not see this as “messin'” with the poem.

      So, I now see everything from – “So why is it that I must go” – up until, “And hint of riches new and old” as either informational clues, or hints. This makes – “Begin it where WWH – to go in peace” the directional clues. So, “Begin it where WWWH IS the first (directional) Clue, and I am in agreement with Forrest. – Just a different way of looking at it and a different way of getting to the first clue. But, I may be crazy as all get-out – JDA

      • JDA: thanks for reposting your theory. I haven’t nearly gotten through all the archived posts.
        Slight but not a huge difference in my pulling clues from anywhere in poem to your idea of it being circular. 1 poem 1 goal, its all connected the clues are in order is the one thing we for sure cannot put in a different spot.
        The idea of the poem being circular has likely led you to think it is possible that the clues may take us in a somewhat circular route which is why some searchers have gotten the first two correct and walked right past the TC. Starting in the correct place will not get you to the TC if you go in the wrong direction from there. And starting in the wrong place while going in the right direction is even less likely to get you there.

        • True – True re the last comment. Circular route – not so much. More than one “lap” through the poem – certainly – Long version, five laps – Simpler version – three. JDA

          • He said he felt like an architect composing the poem. May mean he starts with the general outline, then fills in the details.
            Or he uses google and zooms in, sees the blaze, looks down and there is the spot.
            Or he starts generally and works to specifics.
            I think the architectural reference is interesting.
            If he had said building, then that would seem to be from bottom up.
            Musing.

        • Mama: or instead of a general outline he needed a solid foundation for the poem and framed the rest around it? WWWH the first most important clue gets you halfway there metaphorically speaking is the foundation?

          • What I think reference to WWWH would be a foundation, yes.
            I also think there may be several meanings to some lines.

  48. Chris – I think it’s best to read poem as-is and not entertain changing order of stanzas, and I think FF was fairly adamant with “don’t mess with my poem” for good reasons. I think moving stanzas 5-6 to top is counter-productive and far worse than mere distraction. As a sidebar, have you seen Toby’s (gypsyskiss) u-tube video regarding stanzas 1, 5, 6 where he has 5-6 as legal mumbo-jumbo? Afterwards, I saw “so why is it that I must go” not as some type of good-bye regarding leaving his world location, but rather some type of legal buzz regarding leaving TC in hidey location. The line I’m still choking on is “I’ve done it tired, and now I’m weak” where if this was some type of good-bye cruel world line, I would chosen something more like…I’m done, I’m tired, and now I’m weak. Bottom line (tho not high on my food chain): I don’t get anything from “I’ve done it tired” via my crystal ball or Quija board, and I’ve already burned thru my annual allotment of incense (maybe I need to don an orange robe and shave my enlightenment spot).

    Kinda amusing that all these blogs now have soooo many comments that it appears no one will live long enough to read them all…

    • I agree with you about not moving stanzas 5 and 6 to the top, And I can also see the point JDA is making of it being circular (which does not mean moving anything).

      FF has said, The person who finds the treasure will have studied the poem over and over, and thought, and analyzed and moved with confidence. I would be going in a loop through the poem. A,B,C,D If I go through that once it can only be A,B,C,D if I go through it more than once I run into a string that has C,D,A,B. Not that this has to be correct I just see it as possible.

      No I have not yet seen that gypsykiss video yet. Without seeing it though the very last line of giving title certainly stands out as a legality that could be very important.

      • Chris – Toby’s uTube video is entitled “Revealed: The 9 Clues in Forrest Fenn’s Treasure Poem” and posted July 12, 2017. His read is similar mine, but he reduces stanzas 5-6 to mere legal mumbo-jumbo vs I also see some weird location hints akin FF “What surprises me a little is that nobody to my uncertain knowledge has analyzed one important possibility related to the winning solve.” (MW 2015). And no, I don’t think “cold” has anything to due with temperature.

        • Cold has nothing to do with temperature? Wasn’t it worth the cold when Fenn in TTOTC got up super early to go fishing and it was so cold it froze the tip of his fishing rod?

  49. JDA:
    BigSkip here:
    I respect your interesting opinions and timely contributions. Especially your talent. But did I just read “you’re messing with the poem”? (Sept. 2, 10:08 AM)

    • As I stated, BigSkip, since I see the architecture of the poem as a circle – Why else does Forrest say (about six different times that I can count) : “There are nine clues in the poem, and the clues are in consecutive order. If you want to find the treasure chest – you have my book there – I’ll tell you how to do it. Read the book just normally … the poem and the rest of the book, and then go back and read the poem 6, 8, 10 times – study every line, every word. Then after you do that, read the book again, slowly, with the idea of looking for clues or hints, that are in the book that will help you follow the clues. You can find the chest with just the clues, but there are hints in the book that will help you with the clues.” f

      Real TTOTC – then read the poem 6,8 or 10 times – then read the book again. By reading the poem over and over, and over, stanza #6 begins to flow into Stanza #1`. “In the wood” begins to flow into “In There” – It becomes a circle. A circle has no beginning, and no end. Pick a spot for a beginning – I pick “So why is it that I must go And leave my trove to seek?” – as my beginning point. To me (and you and others may disagree) this is NOT “Messin'” with the poem.

      Just how I view the poem – JDA

      • Hello JDA. I’m curious to understand how you feel about your ideas of where your beginning point is in comparison to “Begin it where warm waters halt” being the first clue, as it has been pointed out by Mr. Fenn.

        • I think I stated this above, but that’s OK. With my new structure – stanza’s 561234 – I see stanza’s 56 and 1 as either “Informational Clues” or “Hints”. I see stanza’s 2,3 and 4 as “Directional Clues”. If 5,6 and 1 are “Hints” – Stanza 2 – Begin it where…” IS the first clue. NO contradiction with Forrest’s statement. IF you call (What’s in a name?) stanza’s 5,6 and 1 as “Informational clues) Stanza #2 is STILL the first “Directional Clue”, and I feel that I am still OK – We shall see I guess. Thanks for askin’ JDA

          • Thank you for explaining, JDA. How is your team doing on the search, and when is their last day?

          • I have not heard from my team since Saturday AM, as they started up the mountain – – – Wish I had heard something – – – but, NO cell service “Up the mountain” – so not a BIG surprise.

            They planned to leave tomorrow, so they may have found it – are enjoying the mountains, and are giving themselves a well deserved couple of days off. Hope to know more tomorrow. Thanks for askin’ JDA

      • Agree. And perhaps the 9 clues are not all separate & different clues…. could you come around the circle and resuse a clue or two which might have aquired a changed interpretation on the 2nd trip? The answers might be different when you, not the poet, is tired and weak.

  50. Some people want to relocate the last two stanzas to the beginning of the poem. I, personally do not think that’s the way to find the solve.

    I would rather think of them as a 2nd chance to solve the poem.

    Open for questions.

  51. JDA:
    Interesting theory…. the poem’s instructions being of a circular nature. That might agree with ff hints that the clues are in consecutive order and are contiguous and should be followed in that order. Certainly a never ending circle offers that approach. But a circular structure might make it difficult to find a beginning point, where to start. The issue of the correct starting point being of greatest concern and discussion on the blog for years. The poem somewhat tells us just where to start. For me, the instructions are very clear: stanzas 2, 3 and 4 contain it all. Stanza 5 and 6 are simply good wishes and encouragements, with some hints on where you’ll be and what you may encounter. All this, of course, in my humble opinion.

  52. The sentence “the end is ever drawing nigh” could actually refer to walking in a circle– since the end is where you started, and where you start is the end.

    • Hi Sparrow — a lot of people seem drawn (no pun intended) to circles. They evidently place a lot of emphasis on the T.S. Eliot quatrain from “Little Gidding” that Forrest slightly altered when he quoted it in the 2013 Six Questions with Jenny. If the path of the 9 clues is a big circle, would you not agree that this would be a TREMENDOUS hint for him to be handing out to searchers? And yet we have Forrest’s statement about giving out clues: “I am determined to stay aloof of providing any additional clues that are useful.” And more specific to circles, what of this exchange in the Q&A at the Moby Dickens Book Shop in Taos in November 2013:

      Woman: “If you follow the poem precisely, will you find yourself switching back?”

      Forrest: “If you follow the clues in the poem precisely, would I what?”

      Woman: “Will you find yourself switching back? (delay) Making a loop.”

      Forrest: “This gal’s dangerous, you know that?! Would I find myself switching back. Well I think I can say no to that without giving away too much of the clue.”

      Now, playing Devil’s Advocate, I suppose you could say that “switching back” and “making a loop” are not the same thing, and Forrest chose to only answer the “switching back” part of her question.

      If your solution to the clues happens to take you in a loop, then so be it. But I would be wary of approaching the poem at the start with the subconscious requirement that the clues must run in a circle.

      • Yup, Zap. Got the same impression, but its a little tainted with images of spankings since a switching is also a paddling. And road or path switch backs are reversed direction, but at at a different altitude, so not the same ground at all. Heck, its not even affirmed that switch back is travel on a path or road at all. Its just a real easy assumption, we all know what the girl meant. We don’t really know what Fenn meant.

  53. WWWH is first clue in poem need FFs map to find WWWH which is Crowheart wyoming and i can finally show everyone the blaze to prove it

    i didnt know on full maps needed to disable 3d and have browser set to 125% zoom

    goto this link and if you dont see the blaze make sure your browser zoom is set to 125% is in options or can use the ctrl + or – and terrain should be on and be on google maps full version but if see the 2d/3d buttong you have to goto the drop down menu and disbale the 3d then you will be able to see the blaze

    https://www.google.com/maps/@43.7034662,-109.2532405,1282m/data=!3m1!1e3!5m1!1e4

    noticed if you zoom in or out of 500 feet the blaze goes away

    this link should show it long as your browser is set to 125% zoom the terrain should be on and the 3d already disabled

    • please unban me on CC guys i know i looked like a troll but wasnt my fualt i didnt realize on full google maps had to disable 3d and put browser to 125% zoom

      sorry for looking like a big troll

  54. Focusing on 9 as the number of clues is probably not the best approach imo. Just because FF has crafted a poem with 9 specific clues to him does not mean I need to see 9, I may be able to see more or less as long as I understand the path the clues take me on.

    For example BIWWWH FF has said that this is the first clue. If I needed to I can find 5 clues in that single line.

    Taken it a bit farther many people see the nine clues starting at BEGIN and ending with CEASE. That would give us 9 clues in 10 lines. Does that mean that one line has no clue and the other 9 do? Does that mean 8 clues are one line and the other clue consists of 2 lines? The answer is it does not matter. One line may contain 3 clues,or 5 lines may contain 0 clues,or one clue may be 4 lines long etc.

    Seeing the obvious and counting to nine is easy. Looking at the big picture and having it come together as a whole has not happened yet. Working the flow of the poem,analyzing without limiting a person counting to 9 may give anyone a better chance at a correct solve.

    • If you select more than 9 then you veer off course.
      Pick less than 9 and the route changes.
      Not knowing where to stop will cause you to walk right past the TC, which people have.
      Knowing the 9 is vital.
      The 9 are straight forward, its finding the start that is hard.

      • WR:It’s not difficult to read carefully, you can even sing if you prefer, but I know that some wise man has found my secret word, so I’m going to drink a sip of water.
        Then I’m going to pov- er the thrill of the chase and finish finding my quests and make the way to get there

        • Rhonny
          Im afraid you forgot to ask if you could go out. Those extra points are not yours, Oh well, Im Sure you’ll learn as you play more.

    • Chris, I absolutely agree with you. I didn’t count clues . . .
      but I didn’t ignore ANY of the poem. Being thorough is
      very important. So is using a dictionary (although some
      folks are apparently too proud to do this).

      The above is my opinion.

  55. A few things I’ve wondered about poem architecture are the following;

    “The end is ever drawing NIGH” specifically rhyming with “just heavy loads and water HIGH” why not switch those last two rhyming words to “the end is ever drawing NEAR” and “just heavy loads and water CLEAR”. Similar but not. He’s using those words for a reason so, yes, then it appears as though nigh is in there also for a direction, left as that’s another definition. Perhaps also, high is another word that is of importance in meaning(s).

    Also, if he tells you to “put in” like as in a boat and/or as a get to work reference, why also afterwards does he say “there is no paddle up your creek” or don’t walk up or boat up the creek? Kind of contradictory unless there’s another reason he used those words. I’m sure there are other two syllable words that would fit that mean the same as put in/begin….such as go in or enter or…..

    • Thrill…

      “Put in” as a nautical reference – I agree with. Get out of whatever watercourse you were in coming down the canyon. You may or may not get “in” another water course that goes UP a different canyon. One that you can probably navigate for some distance – probably past the “No Meek” place – follow it upstream to the END or until it becomes too rough – No paddle up your (Your being the creek that you have been in since “putting in”) creek – Just heavy loads and water high.

      Not saying that you have been paddling up this creek, you well could have been driving, but seeing this creek out of your window.

      Follow it upstream to a point where it becomes non-navigable – then maybe follow it (or a smaller tributary)
      to where heavy loads and water high exist.

      A possibility???? JDA

      • kudos JDA – xlnt ‘spin’ and exactly my read from day 1! Unfortunately, there’s tons of such places thruout RM, but I haven’t seen anyone map these poem lines so clearly before.

        Any idea regarding FF “wet” comment ? As I see it, there’s only 2 natural ways for something to be wet mid summer when not under water, and Dal’s ‘all over’ the 1st one, so how about the 2nd one? (that Errol Flynn line about say vs whisper seems to have nixed ‘wet’ theories…)

        • Sorry Mat;

          This is one of 3 or 4 things I do not talk about.
          1) I will not discuss my wwwh – I will discuss elements of it, but I will not say where my wwwh is.
          2) I will not say what or where my hoB is.
          3) I will not discuss whether I think Indulgence is wet or not.
          4) I will not discuss my final Blaze or water high.

          Other than these items, I will pretty much discuss anything about the poem. JDA

          • JDA – no doubt few will say anything definitive on the ‘big 3’ (wwwh, hob, blaze), but you’re also adding at least one ATF to list…

            (1) wet

            so, offhand, how about a few more, such as…

            (2) key word
            (3) “one important possibility related to the winning solve”
            (4) differences between original map and 2016 Fennboree version

            It’s interesting what guys will and won’t talk about…

    • Thrill. My opinion is that he used “high” specifically to refer to elevation and then used “nigh” in place of “near” because he needed to rhyme with high. Of course, it could be the reverse, so that he chose “nigh” first.

      • I agree with Tom B on “high” being a meaningful word choice.

        As for “nigh” meaning “left”, I know a few people put a lot of stock in that, but I’d let it lie. I’ve only seen it used that way in reference to horses, and in that context riders still “mount on the near side” (left side) of the horse. But they don’t then “turn nigh at the next fork in the road.”

        (Might have to do with wearing a sword – the scabbard would be hanging on your own left side, so you’d mount on the left side of your horse so your scabbard wouldn’t have to swing over the horse’s back.)

        JAKe

      • If there is “no paddle UP your creek” then logically the water ahead is high. Higher in elevation than where you began walking up the creek. Heavy loads may be dirt or silt, or something else. To me “nigh” means ever drawing closer, but that could be wrong.

    • Why does high significant?
      Well, you need context to resolve high… Water is high could simply mean deep.
      Maybe referring to the deepest lake in the RMs?

      Or of we want to play with the whole poem… Glacier National park and a specific glacier.. the deepest, thickest heavy loads cold Frozen chunk of packed snow. Warm to cold.

      Broaden the word usages… It really is ok the bend them a little. The author says he does, right?

  56. IMO

    How many clues are there in the riddle below, 1, 2, or 3?
    “What’s black and white and red all over?”

    I believe it is one clue / one complete statement = one clue.

    • If you asked what is black and red all over, or what is black and white, or what is white and red all over are we missing a clue in any of those questions? Yes, in every one, meaning each work black, white, red can be considered a clue.

    • Jim – unlike many languages, Modern English lacks any official ruling body, but there’s still many commonly agreed forms. I don’t know if you speak any foreign language/s, but I think the oddest thing about English is the often lacking (known) ‘voice’ that’s ripe for puns, jokes & riddles (if unfamiliar, voice is the direction of words). Old English had voice, but the printing press cropped it to bare essentials (similar Russian) so stuff got fuzzy. Ex: in Old English “pray tell thee, sire…” tells us some interesting stuff about two guys with merely a few ‘extra’ words.

      BTW…what’s B&W and red all over???
      Hmmm, a bloody newspaper!

  57. Begin it where warm waters halt
    and take it in the canyon down,

    That is one statement, happens to be on two lines but still one statement.

    One clue or more?

          • I hope you meant that you were trying to “minimize” your time.

            Or perhaps you were trying to “maximize” your “use” of time.

            I apologize in advance, as I am a self confessed grammar nazi.

            Best regards

          • Fennatical
            Maximize is the correct grammar.
            It indicates that I want to get the most from the situation.
            So if I go to an area with just one solve but like the starting point, but not fimd the TC then I’m not getting the most out of the trip. However if having multiple solutions to the area then I am getting the most out of it or maximizing the trip.
            You may want to consider turning in your arm band, your grammar seems to be off.

      • I could actually point out 9. And what I am saying is that if I took the approach of counting to 9 clues instead of taking the approach of understanding the meaning of each word,line,stanza,whole poem I will be limiting my ability to come up with a correct solve.

        If you are sure you know what is a clue and your your name is not Forrest Fenn you also have a chance of walking right past the TC!

    • Chris,

      “Begin it where warm waters halt
      And take it in the canyon down,”

      My read…

      (A) 1 sentence
      (B) 2 statements
      (C) 2 clues (like most guys) maybe 3

      I’m not an English Major, but suspect perfect grammar would have a comma after halt since “and” appears to be a “coordinating conjunction”. Nevertheless, those 2 poem lines are the only ones within stanzas 2-4 that (1) have no punctuation ‘amid’ (2) have “and”…’amid’. I’ll agree, no issues if 5, 10, or 20 clues when…mapped.

      • Big picture! The number of clues meant and the number of clues that can be seen can only lead one astray. If he meant for those 2 lines to hold 2 or 3 clues and I choose to see the wrong number of clues and have a count of 9 clues, I will either be missing a clue or adding a clue, both options will decrease a persons chance of finding the TC. Considering this is only talking about 2 lines of the poem only compounds that problem.

        Follow the path of the poem instead of counting the clues you think you know are clues. IMO this will lead to a much better chance of finding the TC.

          • Undecided on how many clues. Looking up poetry terms you will find enjambment-The continuation of a complete idea (a sentence or clause) from one line to the next line without a pause (including such a continuation across stanzas).

            One complete idea=one clue?

            Remember how long he took to construct the poem. I believe that punctuation and lack of is very deliberate.

            Put in below the home of Brown.
            Put in below, the home of Brown.

            Easy to see two different meanings. One can mean you need to be put in below the home of Brown and the other can mean if you are in the right place the home of Brown was put in below your location.

            So looking at the punctuation and counting I will come up with these clues. (starting at begin, ending with cease)

            1 Begin it where warm waters halt
            And take it in the canyon down,

            2 Not far,

            3 but too far to walk.

            4 Put in below the home of Brown.
            5 From there it’s no place for the meek,
            The end is ever drawing nigh;

            6 There’ll be no paddle up your creek,

            7 Just heavy loads and water high.

            8 If you’ve been wise and found the blaze,

            9 Look quickly down,

            10 your quest to cease,

            Punctuation gives me 10 clues, if there is only 9 I have something wrong. Looking at it this way I would narrow it down to clues 2 and 3 being one clue instead of 2. If that is not the case then clue 9 is Look quickly down,. My clue 10 is not a clue because I just found the chest at clue 9 and there are no clues past the point of doing that.

          • Hi Chris….

            If hints lead to clues and clues lead to the chest, then with you removing “marvel gaze and tarry scant” as possible clues that show direction to Indulgence, could cause you to not succeed.

            Now on the other hand, one could say that they are only hints to clues. But if one we’re to still dig deeper, one will find that they are indeed significant descriptors on what to look for, which again, seems to lead one to the chest.

            IMO – they can be classified as eithern, so therefore I don’t discount them but add them to the clue count – which for me is 11.

            Good luck.

          • Tom you are correct in saying if hints lead to clues etc. leaving out something like tarry scant could be a big mistake.

            I can also easily explain stanza 1 5 and 6 as being important but having nothing to do at all with finding the TC.

            Does not mean I am right but since it can easily be looked at either way there is going to be a lot of time wasted by a lot of people looking at it the wrong way.

            Certainly not the only thing that can be looked at in multiple ways, I think the one who finds it will have looked at in from many angles. Don’t discount the possibility of there being no hints/clues in stanzas 1 5 and 6 and don’t discount the possibility there may be hints/clues.

  58. I haven’t seen this addressed before, but it may have been and remains buried in archives.

    To all deep thinking posters who may differ on many things, all should agree that FF tells us:

    (1) 9 poem clues
    (2) solve in consecutive order per poem
    (3) clues are contiguous (common boundaries)

    Does anyone see a problem here? My beef is “contiguous” and deep thinkers shouldn’t need a degree in topology to catch the problem. IF all clues are contiguous, and we (temporarily) consider each clue a place, then we have a 9 ‘place’ path that mathematically would be expressed as a 9 point path. However, points are NONcontiguous by definition, whereby said 9 point path is invalid (bogus). So, any place clues must follow a point-line-point-line scheme, wherein any point place (clue) is contiguous the next line place (clue), and said line place (clue) is contiguous the next point place (clue), etc…regardless of whether or not all 9 FF clues are geographical or not (non geographical clues get a free lunch here).

    Houston, we have a problem…

    • @Matt Brown maybe F would like to have used the woe ‘adjacent’ but the corner of the BLM parcel and the private property owner parcel are really contiguous….IMO

      • From a strict math view, a point doesn’t define a boundary, so touching corners are not really contiguous. However, I’ll allow 2 corners to be contiguous due to poetic license. And AFAIK contiguous=adjacent=various outer terms, no biggie. I’m only concerned that the path is unbroken.

        BTW my prior point-line-point-line path scheme is overly constrained and path could be point-line-line-line-point with multiple line place clues in succession. Ex: path would be akin driving San Francisco to San Diego where both cities are point place clues, and all highways traveled are line place clues, but any highway interchange is related by intersection of line place clues only.

    • Matt
      Like so many of Fenn comments, contiguous is misunderstood as well.
      He never said the clue location were “touching” (Contiguous) to each other.
      He was asked if the clues were known before or after he wrote the poem, not the clue locations.

      • WR – during Q&A session at Moby Dickens event 11-02-2013 regarding 9 clues: “they’re contiguous”

        No worries, I know the feelin’…

        • Perhaps it would behoove you to identify the question in which they’re contiguous was given.

          I’ll give you a hint.
          We’re the clues known before or after you wrote the poem.

          If Fern simply said yes, which is essentially his answer, how does that affect your stance?
          You may want to sit down when reality sets in.

        • Heidini,
          Unless there is some obscure interview somewhere, the only place he said this was at the Moby Dickens bookstore.
          He was asked, if he had the nine clues before or after he wrote the poem. Fenn answered, they are contiguous.
          He wasn’t asked if the locations are near each other, only if the clues points were known before or after he wrote the poem.

          • W.R.
            I get what you’re saying… but what else does contiguous means if not touching or neighboring -?- connected in some way?
            If you live on a street with 9 house and I wanted to direct someone to your single home… I could direct them to your home by using the other house as landmarks [ colors, size/stories, design, property size, number of telephone poles etc.]

            Would those landmark descriptions not be contiguous, touching, neighboring… even if the street was 5 miles long with twists and turns?

          • Seeker, its just an irrelevant question and statement by Fenn. Following the clue order is different than a need for them to be contiguous.
            If you start in city x
            Take highway 82,
            Exit C
            Left on Crestview
            Right on river run.
            The path can be drawn without lifting your pencil, but Is this really contiguous or just a path?
            For it to be contiguous all these items have to be side by side Like a tree, rock, river, grass that is side by side.

            Exit C and Crestview should be contiguous because that should be the road when you get off highway 82 and take a left. But city x and exit c if 100miles apart, would they be even though they share highway 82?
            Answer is no and It’s irrelevant as the directions is the path.

            So to get you to my house with the only pine tree on the block in the front yard.
            The pine tree would be the clue point and contiguous to the right place but that isn’t the question. The question is was the clue known before or after I wrote the direction?
            Yes I knew it before I wrote the direction but I dont rely on the pinetree to get home and wrote it as clue, end at the prickly tree. This is the contiguous statement.
            So pinetree and prickly tree is what is contiguous.

          • Hi W.R. “contiguous”….such a diverse set of definitions, and vague at that.

            Here’s another “contiguous” way….

            I parked my car and began walking the contiguous path to the treasure location. I didn’t have to stop, because I have found the blaze that led me to the testing spot.

            Notice, what I did? I followed an already established “trail” contigously and then further defined it with action and actual BOTG.

            Of course, I have no chest, but I still followed the clues continuously (contiguously) and it did include going from one location to another…..but….all places were on the same path taken….I didn’t have to stop and “ask for diections” because the directions were the poem.

            Cheers and good luck.

          • What matt said: WR – during Q&A session at Moby Dickens event 11-02-2013 regarding 9 clues: “they’re contiguous”

          • W.R.
            Sure, I can see what you’re saying…
            What I’m attempting to say [ lol, and not very well ] the clues can be [ for lack of a better term] associated with each other. Or even needed to be.

            If your tree is a clue for a specific location… can 20 telephone poles be a distance between clues? And the first clue could say…example; you should call on a close friend you’ve known for two decades. [ phone lines, 20 poles]… ok it ‘s not my best example, but go with it…

            The point is, the clues can be contiguous as needing to be aligned by nature… when thinking about landscape and natural features. You can’t have a waterfall with no water. Otherwise, all you have is a cliff.

            Can wwwh be a waterfall where the horizontal direction of the water changes to a vertical direction [ using the term halt to mean; change in direction… that seems contiguous by the definition.
            Can Heavy Loads refer to a large amount of water, And Water High refer to the elevation of the water as it goes over the edge? That seems contiguous as well.

            But I get it… do all the clues act in the same manner or connected? I think they can.

          • Seeker,

            I understood and tried best to separate the differences.
            However, the discussion revolves around Matt’s confusion of point 3) the clues are contiguous (common boundary).

            But point 3 in that instance is repetitive of point 2) solve in consecutive order.
            By default solving in order is contiguous and hence A B C D E F G.
            It could be GDEFACB, that too would be contiguous as well, but not in consecutive order.
            no matter the way it’s arranged it will always be Contiguous, it’s a pointless point because any combination will always be. (Well there is one exception, but there’s an exception to everything.)

            That isn’t what is driving how contiguous became into the search vocabulary is It?
            It was asked if the clues were known before or after writing the poem.
            In this context contiguous was created.
            It was not asked if the clues were nearby, in proximity, similar path, or any other common border way.
            If it was asked like that, then my answer would change. But it wasnt and an understanding of the question is why this is an irrelevant discussion.

    • Matt,
      If we’re talking from a ‘strict math view’ clues can be neighboring as points [such as a mountain elevation point] and, not unlike your highway line example, other points can be within or out of the mountain point[s] and still be contiguous as in a geographical sense.

      Ex. looking at a map, you find three peaks which create a triangle… three points. Within or outside the triangle you have other ‘related’ neighboring / touching points… streams, creeks, lake, etc. These natural features exists because each point is needed… snow cap melt from the peaks, create streams that may create a lake that may have a drainage [outlet] from the lake.. etc etc.
      So what ya have is a full working system that could be triangulated [ mathematically ] using those contiguous [ neighboring and touching points [ geographical in nature ] to calculate an exact point [ spot ].

      If one of those points is not discovered, or wrong… so is the math. The question is [ and I understand the 9 thing ] are all the ‘clues’ points or spots?

      Example; “from there”- lets say hoB, point A, “it’s no place for the meek” [Meek reference point B]… “the end is ever drawing” [ the end of the meek reference]- point C, and “nigh” as left/west for a direction to the next point HLAWH- point D. [ A connects to B connects C and a correct line drawing to D, gives a location within A B C ]
      Hypothetically, you have 4 points [clues][geographical mapping] but only three places that are connected, contiguous [the neighborhood /system]… But how many “clues” did it take to get you there? Is “nigh” a clue? In this case, yes. Is it a point? In this case, no.

      It’s very difficult to [ even temporarily ] consider all clues as a single point. Something must give a direction… such as “And take it in the canyon down” or “not far” as examples… “down” for south [ direction ] “far” for [right direction or 90 degrees turn or east] ..depending on how it all works out properly… lol, maybe two far [two right angles] are needed?

      The idea is, math with connecting natural points to work with… the actual use of the clues [ working with only a 1/2 cup of coffee ] might be a bit off.

      • Seeker – thanks for response, I know how long these take. I’m banging on limits to how many clues could be ‘points’ due to contiguous.

        WR – continuous means constant and usually refers to motion, contiguous means adjacent as in some type of common boundary. Consider 2 cities which each have an incorporated area that defines the city limits of each…this is the city boundary. IF these 2 cities are ‘neighbors’ but each is surrounded by an UNincorporated area, then there is no…contiguous…path across both cities. IF…9 clues in chase poem were ALL cities, the only contiguous path across said 9 clues would require said 9 cities to share city limits (ie boundaries) in some valid manner, one of which (for simplicity) would be 9 square areas, side by side, in a single row. In this manner, an unbroken contiguous path could transverse all 9 cities.

        However, if we reconsider these 9 clues as an unknown amount of ‘cities’, we still need similar adjacent boundaries for these 9 clues to maintain an unbroken…contiguous…path.

        Now, since FF tells us clues are ‘consecutive’, we’re better enabled to surmise valid clues and valid path.

        My original point was that when contiguous ATF is added, the 9 clues can NOT be something like Seattle-Portland-San Francisco-Los Angeles-San Diego since this string of cities is not a contiguous path or per GPS buzz, (these) way points are not a contiguous path.

        Returning to poem, if…WWWH is a small feature like a spring, canyon down is a large feature like a canyon with a river, and put in is a small feature like a creek junction with said river, then a contiguous path (so far) is a no brainer. However, if we represent any such small feature ‘location’ as a point, and any such large feature ‘location’ as a line, we’ll find that…IF…all 9 clues are locations, and excluding both end locations (first and last), contiguous will constrain locations whereby any other small locations will have a large location on each side, but not the inverse. Thus, the 9 clues could be something like spring-river-creek-fire ring-road-trail-hill peak, or river-creek-river-river-creek-creek, but not spring-peak-spring-peak-spring-peak. Get it, now?

        • Here’s an amusing contiguous example:

          Consider a circle with 5 points spaced 72 deg apart. When asked to connect these 5 points with 5 straight lines in a contiguous path, do you draw a star or a pentagon?

          Hmmm, a star might get you in the army, but a pentagon will get you in the air force.

          • JDA: a circle violates the “5 straight lines” requirement. I suspect the solution Matt Brown is fishing for involves line segments that don’t begin or end on the circle. I suspect 99% of people will start on one of the five points, not realizing you only need three lines to connect all 5 points.

          • Zaphod
            You get an A for effort, but like JDA you didn’t follow the instructions of using 5 lines vs 3.
            If points are 1 2 3 4 5 going clockwise then go 1-5-2-4-3 connect the points, or other similar approach.

          • JDA: hey, at least your answer was original (and ties in with your approach to reading the poem). And in non-Euclidean geometry, your answer would be valid. 😉

          • * * * * * * Matt Brown imagined – “Consider a circle with 5 points spaced 72 deg apart. When asked to connect these 5 points with 5 straight lines in a contiguous path, do you draw a star or a pentagon?” * * * * * *

            There are statements for either possibility. Maybe a pentagram IN a pentagon?

            Pentagon – ” . . . look at the poem as if it were a map, because it is, and like any other map, it will show you where to go if you follow its directions.” f

            Pentagram (star) – “The treasure is out there waiting for the person who can make all the lines cross in the right spot.” f

            JAKe

          • W.R.: I was just giving an example showing “outside the box” (or in this case “outside the circle”) thinking. This makes the problem similar to the task of drawing just 4 straight lines through all 9 dots (laid out in a 3 x 3 square) without lifting your pencil. Most cannot solve it. Matt’s question said nothing about requiring the lines to start or end on one of the 5 points. But if you restrict yourself to lines that do not exit the circle, there are two additional “shapes” you can create: 3 isosceles triangles (2 large, 1 small), or 1 isosceles triangle and a diamond. The former exemplified by 1-3-2-5-4-1, the latter by 1-2-3-5-4-1.

          • W.R.: … and I suspect you were looking for my latter case (diamond touching isosceles triangle) because it looks like a fish. 😉

          • In the actual puzzle at hand, you’ve got 24 lines (in the poem) that you have to connect using 9 dots (clues*). 😉

            * ” . . . if you knew the geographic location of each clue it would be a map to the treasure.” f

            JAKe

          • Why does everyone think that 9 clues translate to 9 separate physical locations?

            “I’m thinking of a building for a snack. It has golden arches atop.”

            Two consecutive clues….one physical location

            Jus’ ol loco being loco!! 🙂

          • * * * * * * ol’ loco leaps – “Why does everyone think that 9 clues translate to 9 separate physical locations?” * * * * * *

            Heh.

            In the Rocky Mountains north of Santa Fe is the physical location of all the clues (well, maybe – several of them anyway).

            “Your destination is small, but its location is huge.” f

            On the flipside there’s searchers who think there’s up to 18+ physical locations, and at least one other who knows there’s 11+ clues. And lots who think one or more of the clues refers to direction or instruction rather than to location.

            It’s a Big Backyard, everyone’s gotta think something.

            JAK3

        • Matt
          Here’s a good definition that will be helpful to you for the search.
          Reading comprehension is the ability to read text, process it, and understand its meaning.

    • Any clues that are between points are giving us a line to take to the next point. Point, line, point they do touch and share a border.

      We can also use synonyms of contiguous such as neighboring and not have to completely be touching.

      We also have a definition of contiguous, next in a sequence, meaning simply what he has said before that the clues are in order.

  59. Since I am hopeful of testing my solve soon, this is a summary of the way I see the poem. There are four specific locations (points) to find;
    1. Where warm waters halt
    2. Home of Brown
    3. The blaze
    4. The treasure

    Then, there are necessarily three connecting segments to determine:
    1. Where warm waters halt to home of Brown
    2. Home of Brown to the blaze.
    3. The blaze to the treasure.

    Segment one is a canyon that goes down in elevation or goes in a southerly direction Segment two is a creek that goes up in elevation. As far as the blaze to treasure segment, in my view the treasure is located within the blaze. As far as distances between the points, I see each segment being shorter than the previous. For the canyon, I estimate about 10 miles, for the creek segment, I estimate less than 4 miles, and for the blaze/treasure segment, less than 50 feet.

    Clues in the poem help identify the direction and distance of the segments. Down, not too far but too far to walk, below, no place for the meek, heavy loads/water high, cold, and in the wood are all directional clues.

    These are my deductions and I don’t expect anyone else to agree. The results will tell whether this is correct or not.

    • Well Tom,

      We have agreed on a couple of points in the past, but not so sure I see eye-to-eye with you on this one. Good luck my friend. Remember – HAVE FUN and TRY to STAY SAFE – JDA

      • I knew you would not JD, but your waycoukd prove correct in the end. My feeling from the beginning was that Forrest presented us with a straightforward problem to solve using clues composed of words with relatively standard meanings. As I have stated previously, the primary difficulty, in my opinion, is to find the specific area in the Rocky Mountains where the poem (our treasure map) is located.

    • Great job breaking it down Tom. I agree with much of it though I don’t know that we have any way to accurately measure the distances except for ff stating that he walked less than a few miles (paraphrasing).

      I’m on the fence whether I believe water high is a location or a direction. Heck, it could even be a direction toward a location until we find the blaze.

      Good luck testing your solve. Will you try and do it before the snow?

    • TomB,
      If I’m reading correctly… you have over 14 miles involved. Are you going to travel that, twice, in one afternoon / several hours? {totaling 56 miles ?} I wouldn’t call those segments short imo.

      But here’s the kicker… you said; The treasure is “within” the blaze – less than 50 feet. Is your interpretation of the blaze to be 50 feet large [ or more ]? That’s 2500 sq pieces of land area that could hold the chest, right? or 2500 possible hidey spots.

      Just out of curiosity, does your theory tell of which sq foot the chest lays in wait, or does the “within” the blaze conceal the chest [ thinking that “within” might mean, not under the blue sky ]. In the latter thought… the blaze would have to be hidden/out of sight as well, right? or someone could happen upon it and go “within the blaze” as well, right?

      Like I said, just curious to understand what you’re saying.

      • Seeker.
        The distance travelled in one afternoon on foot would be much shorter. If you know where the treasure is located, you can go directly to it. I believe you can drive to within a half mile of the treasure. Two round trips then would add up to only two miles walked.

        As far as localizing the treasure, I believe the poem leads you to within 10 feet of it’s location. That is truly precise when you are talking about the area of the Rocky Mountains.

        • TomB,
          Ok ~ your destination is small but the area is huge, line of thinking…

          What is “within” mean?
          Is that the distance from the blaze in a particular direction? { which reminds me of the Q&A; Which direction does the blaze point…}
          Or
          Is the chest within or enclosed or surrounded [ vaulted in so to speak ] by the blaze?

          I’m curious because of the way you stated it; “The treasure is ‘within’ the blaze” and not from or away or even at the blaze. Still… if actually ‘in’ the blaze… that would be a big ‘object’. [50′ large] – it wouldn’t matter to me if the blaze was a rock maze of sorts. I’m just trying to paint a picture.

          “Is the blaze a single object? In a word, yes.”

          • Seeker. I can’t say too much without giving my solve away, but I believe the blaze is large, and not solid, and that the treasure is located within the boundaries of the blaze.

          • The following is an excerpt from my book, with a few changes ; it is my opinion of the blaze.

            The Blaze

            What is the blaze? On one of the internet sites someone asked Forrest is the blaze one single object. He replied: in a word -yes. The word “yes” can be found in this word. I wrote a poem about this word, the answer to the poem reveals the word of which I believe Forrest meant when he said “in a word-yes.” Here is my poem:

            “Green” sludge to yellowcake, who would have guessed that.
            It’s not really yellow; its final stage is “Black.”
            Radioactive “Red” is a color of Fiesta Ware,
            We don’t use it now because it’s a real dare.

            It’s where it’s kept covered with earth, grass and stone,
            To keep us from turning into nothing but bone.
            It’s where we keep our dirty little mess,
            Its pitchblende is brown/black: so what is your guess?

            Answerer: REpoSitorY; “Yes” is in this word.

            It also answers the question of the tea colors in the chapter “Tea with Olga” and refers to the stages of uranium processing which also describes the type of repository the blaze is. As Forrest Fenn has stated, you would be surprise at where the treasure chest is hidden. The blaze is a Uranium Mill Tailings Repository and it is smack dab in the middle of a Parks and Wildlife area.

            It’s made up of millions of stones stacked as high as 40ft tall and forms the blaze that looks like the blaze on a horses head. The stones are mostly light or white in color and most are about the size of watermelon and cantaloupe with many others being larger than beach balls It’s as large as 2 to 3 football fields. I think that Forrest discovered it one day while flying over it in his plane. It’s such an eye popping site from above. I’m sure it caught his attention, and the curiosity in him just couldn’t resist going to investigate.
            __________________________
            Forrest said the blaze is something that stands out, well this blaze is out there. It doesn’t face N.E.S. or W., it faces up.

            Check it out here:
            http://dalneitzel.com/2015/07/14/treasure-more-than-gold/

          • Forrest has mentioned “The Wasteland” by T.S Eliot, in it he describes a land that has withered away and has turned to brown and anticipating its reclamation. This blazed wasteland of uranium mill tailings is being recovered and hopefully the tailings haven’t hurt the wildlife in the area.

            Probably should have posted this and previous comment on the blaze thread, but was replying to others here and thought it was the blaze thread. Sorry.

      • Yeah he never did say he was walking the whole 14 miles, I would personally put 4 miles on the extreme outer limit of walking needed. That is still 16 miles in the Rockies in one afternoon, on top of that I am willing to bet FF took a nice rest (after he brought 2nd half of treasure) in his favorite spot.

    • Tom B, do not for get that if segment one can go down in elevation or down south the same can be said for segment two up in elevation or up north. And don’t forget the words there’ll be no-does that mean do not go up the creek? Now you have 2 more directions, down in elevation or south.

      Not trying to make things harder,trying to help. Forgetting to ask yourself something can lead anyone astray.

      • Chris.
        Yes, up could be north as well as up in elevation.

        To me, “no paddle up your creek”, does not mean don’t go up the creek. It means to follow upstream a creek that is not navigable.

        • That is likely one reason it has not been found yet. How he meant something and what searchers think it means. That also may be a clue you need BOTG for, if your solve brings you to a creek that can be navigated then you have your answer, of course seasons change that factor.

          Will not hurt my feelings if you are correct, I will likely not ever go searching for it.

          • Chris. Only Forrest knows the correct meaning with certainty until someone finds the treasure. Until then, your opinion is as good as anyone else’s.

    • TomB – I like your solve, it’s effectively the same as mine, except I use the “put in” for point 2 vs your HOB. In my solve, my HOB is a hint vs an actual clue. Your blaze has an uncanny parallel to my solve, but I’m still unsure as to my actual blaze and figure BOTG is req’d. So, it appears you have meek line between HOB and blaze, correct?

  60. Fennatical – what does a grammar nazi think about FF ATF to “BRING a flashlight” (bring vs take issue). Zap’s recent English-German comment is akin how I spotted this…when studying German decades ago, this type of stuff drove many guys nuts (bring/take issue is the same in both these languages).

  61. I have been looking very hard at my solve area, and I believe taking a flashlight is going to be important. I have already searched my creek and canyon very thoroughly, and there is no blaze within that part of my area. Now after coming back home again and working on the poem and the clues, I have a new idea based on “From there it’s no place for the meek.”

    I never considered what that meant, but now I believe it is an instruction to cross the creek as soon as feasible. Then leave the creek area and the canyon and move to the blaze. My blaze is a big rock outcropping which is near the creek area, and it is near the home of Brown.

    Under my rock outcropping is a fairly big area which GE cannot provide a view of. The light would be limited there, and a flashlight might be a handy way to see reflections of brass, or any other sign or indication he may have placed there. Now I understand why the flashlight would be needed. Then after getting the 42 pound TC out, the sandwich is for energy to carry it back to the vehicle, about a half mile away.

    Just my opinions based on my search area.

    Franklin

      • JDA

        Looking just at my solve area, and nothing else, it is very hard for me to understand stanza 5.

        “So why is it that I must go
        And leave my trove for all to seek?
        The answers I already know,
        I’ve done it tired, and now I’m weak.”

        Forrest has stated that every word in the poem is important, so these words are not fitting in with my other clues. Do you have any ideas of what this stanza really means?

        Franklin

        • Franklin;

          I have a couple of “Off the wall” thoughts, but they may be worth zilch.

          Why use “go” and “leave” in the same sentence?
          “go” and “Leave” together might relate to “Leaves” – leaves of trees.

          “go” and “leave” could refer to a past action.
          Why is it that I LEFT something (like Indulgence” – so is it possible you have to turn to the LEFT at some point in order to find Indulgence? Maybe.

          “I’ve done it” Strange usage of words. What is it that Forrest did? Answer, he hid or secreted Indulgence. . . “I hid Indulgence tired”??? Tired = wanting to lie down, be supine – So, Forrest hid indulgence in a low area somewhere. Weak can also mean “watered down” – like a weak drink might be a drink that has been “watered down”. so, is Indulgence in a place that is down low, in a wet area? Who knows?

          Does any of this make any sense in your solve? Hope it helps someone. JDA

          • JDA

            Thanks for the ideas. It has me totally puzzled. I guess I have been ignoring this stanza all along. Thinking ….

            Franklin

          • Hello JDA. “Go” may be to arrive some place, where as, “leave” may be to leave behind.

            This is an opinion, offered as a thought.

          • Have my fingers crossed this one will post, JDA. “Go” may be to arrive some place, where as, “leave” may be to leave something behind.

          • JDA, your ‘leaves’ interpretation…

            Recently, I think it was on the film questions, Mr. F was explaining the concept of hidden vs. buried and he said something to the effect of ‘if the wind blew a bunch of leaves on top of the chest after he put it there, will we consider that hidden or buried.

            Any correlation to -And LEAVE my trove for all to seek? 🙂

          • He said a flashlight and sandwich weren’t “clues”…he didn’t say those items are not “hints”. Those items might come in handy in your pic-a-nic basket.

          • I like to eat a sandwich while I’m “waiting for the light to change”. Helps to pass the time. Flashlight comes in handy too.

    • Franklin;

      In SB 167, there is the following as relates to a flashlight:

      – People have become fixated on you telling them to bring a sandwich and a flashlight. Are they just wasting their time focusing on these things as clues?

      FF: They certainly are not clues. JDA

      • I think they just help sometimes. A snack is good if I get really hungry. My vision is such that shadows or irregular light cause difficulty – a flashlight would better control light so I can see – It is like driving a vehicle at night or trying to decide if clothes are dark blue or black – with age some things get difficult to see and direct light helps. Both items are not in the poem; I think I could do without them – but I better be alone because hunger makes being with me ‘interesting’. 🙂

        • Remember Skippy’s crystal radio?

          Minerals can certainly be a fascinating subject to study.

          Some can even……shine when hit with a beam of iight.

          SL

  62. Which one of the 9 clues do any of you believe are included in stanza 5?

    “So why is it that I must go
    And leave my trove for all to seek?
    The answers I already know,
    I’ve done it tired, and now I’m weak.”

    I have always believed he was using this as an opportunity to reflect. He wrote the poem way back in the early 90s, or before. So was this a declaration that he was going to “GO” as in pass away? Or does it mean something else?

    This stanza is the great enigma within the poem. I have ignored it until now, but I am sure we have to assign a meaning to it. I like JDA’s ideas. Do any of you other searchers have an idea or two?

    Thanks – Franklin

    • Franklin;

      You ask an interesting question.: “Which one of the 9 clues do any of you believe are included in stanza 5?”

      Your question, as stated, is assuming that there is a CLUE in stanza #5. Have you considered the possibility that rather than a CLUE – Stanza #5 might be a HINT or two, and not a clue? Just askin’ JDA

    • Enigma for sure. Why was it a ‘must’, why did he have to go and do it? He only hid one treasure so why ‘he’s done it tired’? Sounds like he HAD done something repetitively… What about the context of ‘weak’ if you think 100 years from now?

        • They are very similar. Here is something I posted several weeks ago about it:

          Has anyone else found the similarities to stanza 1 and stanza 5 curious? I know stanza 1 is saying what he did and stanza 5, following the clues, leave a question as to why he did it but I’m sure there is more to it than that. Maybe not much but it is curious to me. I have broken it down here with some debatable tenses for each line that follow an interesting pattern.

          Stanza 1 line 1: As I have gone alone in there – past
          Stanza 5 line 1: So why is it that I must go – future

          Both lines talk about going

          Stanza 1 line 2: And with my treasures bold, – past still
          Stanza 5 line 2: And leave my trove for all to seek? – future still

          Both lines mention treasure, carrying and leaving it

          Stanza 1 line 3: I can keep my secret where, – present
          Stanza 5 line 3: The answers I already know, – present

          Answers to where the secret is?

          Stanza 1 line 4: And hint of riches new and old. – future
          Stanza 5 line 4: I’ve done it tired, and now I’m weak. – past

          I’m not sure if riches new and old somehow relates to done it tired, and now I’m weak but it is curious that FF uses two adjectives to describe the nouns in each of these lines: riches – new and old, and I – tired and weak.

          • That’s exactly what I was thinking. I just don’t feel like it’s a coincidence, nothing is. Hmmm…

          • I agree, and don’t believe it is possible for it to be a coincidence that they are so similar. Like Zap mentioned it is likely that they both point to a similar clue, which IMO is the right WWWH.

          • Good point W.R. the sentence to me just sounds like he is pondering why he must go in the future.

      • KLT: IMO you are not reading something that isn’t there. I believe both stanzas contain the same hint to the same clue. Helpful redundancy.

        • Zaphod,

          Stanzas 1 and 5 IMO are merely statements, The first stanza he is simply stating what he did, and I truly believe there is no hint and nothing cryptic as I stated below with Franklin. CharlieM IMHO

        • Hi CharlieM — unless you disabuse yourself of the notion that there are stanzas that contain nothing but setup or fluff, in my opinion you’ll never solve WWWH. And without WWWH, you are a Canasta player. Remember, Forrest said “When you read the poem, it looks like just simple words there. But I guarantee you I worked on that thing… I felt like an architect drawing that poem.” And “There are a few words in the poem that are not useful in finding the treasure Phil, but it is risky to discount any of them.” So in spite of this information, you are willing to throw out not just a few words or even an entire sentence, but entire stanzas? And you don’t think that’s risky? In my opinion, there is a lot more going on in the poem than 24 lines of simple words that follow an ABAB rhyming pattern. “You over simplify the clues.”

          • Zaphod,

            I never said the rest of the poem outside of stanza 1 & 5 are simple words.

            I have worked on the poem for quite sometime also, I don’t see the poem the same as nice people do here.

            Yes, IMHO, I know what, WWWH, the home of Brown and the Blaze are. I’ve put botg, and was so very close, just using the Poem all by itself. I read TTOTC and other postings from FF since then. I believe my first Blaze was incorrect and have changed nothing else in my solve.

            I kind-of take what you said as a reprimand of sorts. I don’t play Canasta. However we all have our own ideas. Is it not the purpose of Dal’s website?

            And I kindly say that Stanzas 1 & 5 are statements and they hold no clues. IMHO

            CharlieM 🙂

          • CharlieM,

            “I never said the rest of the poem outside of stanza 1 & 5 are simple words.”

            Fair enough, but that’s not what I was responding to. You unceremoniously dumped stanzas 1 and 5 as not being necessary to solving the poem, and I strongly disagreed with that, and gave some good reasons why it would be reckless to expunge a third of the poem as not being germane to solving the clues. If you have not found critical information in the first stanza, then in my opinion you cannot have the correct WWWH because WWWH is unsolvable without it. It would be akin to saying you’d solved home of Brown or the blaze without figuring out WWWH.

            “I kind-of take what you said as a reprimand of sorts.”

            Not a reprimand — I was pointing out the dangers of your throwing away potentially key information just because you couldn’t decipher it or make it fit your spot.

            Once upon a time, a poster here put together a checklist of tests that any candidate solution must pass, or it is wrong. For instance, the chest can’t be in Canada, Utah or Idaho; can’t be below 5,000 feet or above 10,200 feet; can’t be on top of a mountain; can’t be underwater; can’t be in a cave, mine, tunnel or graveyard; can’t have a WWWH associated with a dam; and so on. I would add a second tier of yellow hazards that would include “doesn’t make any use of two or more stanzas” and “requires more than 10 miles of hiking.”

    • Franklin,

      “So why is it that I must go
      And leave my trove for all to seek?
      The answers I already know,
      I’ve done it tired, and now I’m weak.”

      This stanza I believe is purely simple, the first line FF talked about his cancer as to why he must go in TTOTC, and in the book he explains why he’s leaving the treasure. The third line he is simply making a filler statement. In the fourth line, he states was tired before placing the treasure and now he is weak from putting TC in the hiding place.

      I don’t believe there is nothing that is cryptic, not a clue, it’s simply a statement and nothing more. IMHO CharlieM

      • CharlieM

        Thanks for your thoughts. I kind of agree with you and find no significant clue in stanza 5. I sure appreciate everyone’s ideas on this. To me it seems like he inserted a personal reflection to give us perspective.

        However, in stanza 1, I see it as a kind of hint as to what is in the area. I believe when he says “And with my treasures bold,” he is describing things in the area which are important to him, rather then the treasures in the chest.

        Just my opinion of course

        Franklin

      • I consider this stanza “clueless” with other purposes in mind. Is it possible he added/tweaked this stanza after hiding Indulgence to remind himself and hint to us he “must” because he was compelled to do so by a promise he had made to himself and/or his father. Perhaps he started to have self-doubt or second thoughts (weak and thus his statement about seeking it with confidence). Perhaps he had grown tired of waiting for the right moment or taking no action after having completed the other poem stanzas. All IMO and I could be clueless.

          • Unfortunately not a whole lot at the moment, that’s why I am here – to learn from all of you. But if he says that we can go to the spot with confidence, it makes me THINK that we shouldn’t chase the ‘perhaps’.

        • thanks W.R – i always suspected it was brie

          [NTS: immediately cancel the Mozzarella Lunar Landing Expedition!!]
          🙂

          • KLT: Agree – confidence is important. I am very confident stanza 5 is clueless, but haven’t any proof to offer and don’t claim it to be a fact. I don’t focus much on that part of the poem. Maybe I should. Indulgence’s location may never be proven / known to anyone other than ff and its finder. Until then, to me it’s supposition, conjecture, “perhaps” and IMOs even with the greatest of confidence. At least that’s MO. Good luck, be safe, have fun and be prepared to learn about much more than the poem. At least that’s been an interesting and rewarding part of my (f)actual experience with this chase.

            Curious: I hear hobbits like to eat cheese. Given the Earth moon’s surface temperatures fluctuate from -175C to +100C, I think cheese would fall apart upon thawing or melt away when heated. But hey, who am I to stop a silly Hobbit from wishing perhaps some moon somewhere is made of cheese (or brie) – even when I’m confident there’s none.

    • * * * * * * Franklin wondered – “Which one of the 9 clues do any of you believe are included in stanza 5? . . . .
      This stanza is the great enigma within the poem. I have ignored it until now, but I am sure we have to assign a meaning to it. I like JDA’s ideas. Do any of you other searchers have an idea or two?” * * * * * *

      I haven’t been able to tease any secret sense out of it, and I avoid trying to decipher secret sense into it by force.

      Structurally, it does have some small interest in that it contains half of one of the two “sets” of matching rhymes in the poem –
      stanzas 1 & 6 – bold, old, cold, gold
      stanzas 3 & 5 – meek, creek, seek, weak
      so if there’s any architectural sleight-of-hand going on, it might be found there . . . but I doubt it.

      Maybe someday two other things will “click” and stanza 5 will unexpectedly wink at me, but I’m not counting on it.

      Jake

    • Franklin

      I’ve always thought that stanza five;

      “So why is it that I must go
      And leave my trove for all to seek?
      The answers I already know,
      I’ve done it tired, and now I’m weak.”

      This is Forrests answer to the “IF” in stanza four;

      “If you’ve been wise and found the blaze,
      Looking quickly down, your quest to cease,
      But tarry scant with marvel gaze,
      Just take the chest and go in peace.”

      Meaning Forrests answer is the start of a second set of clues “IF” you did not find the blaze referenced in stanzas five……

      Does that seem possible?

      • Jim

        Good thoughts and I appreciate it. I am working on laying it all out and I am going to include your idea here as well. I am drawing a lot of arrows and adding all the comments I get. Getting a picture of the events that must unfold to get to the TC.

        God Speed my friend!

        Franklin

    • Two clues in stanza 5. Line 17 and line 20.IMO…A direction and a distance. Lines 18 and 19 both have hints to what you must do with what you took from line 16, IMO…

    • Franklin – i view stanza5 as being a legal statement explaining why he (Forrest) can’t personally retrieve the TC

      i also believe (at the mo) that this stanza may connect with the ‘bunch of money” Forrest spent on a lawyer in order for the finder not to get too tangled in the political/legal circus that will inevitably ensue, and consider ‘the special something for the finder’ to also be directly related to my hugely hypothetical
      theory

      • Curious Hobbit.

        I concur they are put in the poem to validate what TTOTC is all about legally. Without stanzas 1 & 5 there is no hope for anyone to claim the TC as their own. FF is the owner until the treasure is found. He gives the “title to the gold” to the finder transferring ownership. Stanzas 2, 3, 4 and 6 contain the 9 clues. IMHO

        CharlieM

        • I see it as complete opposite. In my opinion, stanzas 1 and 5 contain the most important clues of the whole solve. What the hidey place is, where it is, and what to look for. But, you have to use the rest of the poem to narrow down from state to general area to specific area to precise location … then stanza 5 comes into play. Again, just my opinion and I don’t have the chest of course … read the two stanzas and think about what it is you are reading / saying. No trick or treat wording … it is straight forward … that is why he says read the poem over and over. You will know when you get it … an aha moment. All my opinion of course.

      • CH

        Thanks for the ideas. There MUST be something in there which enables the finder to keep the treasures!!

        I believe there is a document of some kind in there. Also that could be the “something special he doesn’t want to talk about>

        Franklin

      • Hobbit – I concur that stanza 5 is legal ‘mumbo-jumbo’ and even Toby rags on this in one of his gypsyskiss videos. However…my read on stanza 5 is more steeped in legalities which hint at an obscure oddity of hidey location. As I said in another post awhile back, I don’t read stanza 5 as someone leaving this world (dying), but rather as someone leaving hidey location AND leaving TC ‘behind’. Ever wonder why “I’ve done it tired, and now I’m weak” isn’t more like: I’m done, I’m tired, and now I’m weak…

        • Forget don’t mess with the poem. Does making it easier have the same fit and feel to the poem?
          Have you rewritten the poem in a way by changing certain words like halt to stop, pause, etc? Perhaps as I have gone alone in there you changed to I went there alone.
          Did the essence change? Did you get a different meaning? You may have gotten something precise, but from all appearances Fenn wanted something obscure. So of course something can be said another way, if that’s your focus, then you miss the big picture.

      • CharlieM – my jury’s still out on whether S6 contains actual clues or merely confirmation-hints, but am also wary of falling into any ‘assumed’ rabbit-holes too, so will diligently keep an open mind with all stanzas

        Franklin – i agree that the “special something” could pertain to a legal document of sorts, and that returning the bracelet is the key to activating this process.
        “Me wearing the bracelet is your best revenge. f”
        – best revenge against whom though?
        ( ..imho, if it ain’t Martin Shkreli then it’s gotta be the dreaded tax-man 🙂 )

        Matt – perhaps S5 was the most heavily re-modded stanza since Forrest beat his cancer (?) – it would be interesting to read his original poem. However, if you suspect there’s a vital clue/hint secreted within it, then i’m def all ears – don’t worry tho, i won’t tell 🙂

        • Hobbit – what’s the 3 most important things in real estate?…location, location, location. So, forgetting all the age old scuttlebutt here, what type of hidey ‘location’ do you thing would pose the greatest threat to any lucky searcher? Now, ducking back in your hobbit hole while avoiding any rabbit holes, can you conjure up any location ‘situation’ where this threat decreases, and disappears in the presence of ‘something special’ ? No doubt, some on this blog have used this legal ‘maneuver’ in past, but lack the imagination to connect the dots…

          If baffled, and still a curious hobbit, drop me a line powermacs@email.com
          but ID your handle in subject header so I’ll recognize ya

          • Such an honorable hobbit. ;)…when you said ‘closet’ you meant ‘cupboard’ , right? Just double checking the technical
            jargon so our prenump
            reflects proper understanding of banned activities…as heck…lets just throw that puppy in the shredder and head off to our mystery location. 🙂

          • aloha Jonsey@1 🙂 🙂
            yes, i’m def a ‘cupboard’ sorta muppet (wat’s a ‘closet’?)

            and yes, it pays to check all tech-jargon
            (wat’s a ‘pre-nup’?)

            so yes, let’s head off to our mystery motel8 destination without further delay
            (wat’s a ‘banned activity’??)
            🙂

    • Mosby123,
      I like your fresh ideas. In the past I’ve heard of “down” as feathers, a direction,sad etc. I like it, it sure makes one think….. thanks for sharing your thoughts… have a great day…. see ya

    • Fenn also has said GE “and/or” a good map… Right map, as useful.
      Quickly might refer to how we would be certain beforehand, line of thinking… ‘zoom’ down your quest to cease…

      Is the blaze in the poem or only in the field?
      Does the blaze point N.S.E.W.?
      Go back to the poem….
      ‘Found ” the blaze; prior?
      If you know where the chest is, you can ‘probably” retrieve it in an weather… Overcast?
      The poem is a map.
      Marry the clues to…

      • Seeker,

        I concur the poem is a map, here are what I think are the nine clues.
        1. WWWH
        2. In the canyon down
        3. Not far, too far to walk
        4. Below HOB
        5. No paddle up your creek
        6. water high
        7. found the blaze
        8. worth the cold
        9. in the wood

        Yep it’s on the map, IMHO 🙂

  63. So Forrest has said that people have been within 200 to 500 feet of the treasure. He knows this because they email him exactly where they are. Would anyone who emailed him their location be willing to share that with the rest of us. By the process of elimination we would be able to narrow the search drastically. Thanks

    • JC-
      How would that help? Thousands and thousands of folks have emailed Forrest their locations. I think you’d end up with more locations than you have ever thought about…and the people that were within a couple hundred feet would probably forget to share their location…

      • Dal,

        I completely agree with you. Can you imagine hundreds of people swooping in on an area in a short period of time just on the premise of someone saying they were within 200′? This would overwhelm the natural areas and most likely cause a lot of damage for a very long time. That would be a heavy price to pay.

        • I personally, would need more than just that, in order to “swoop” in on anything….that is just way to vague of a statement that would cause me to change course.

          What would it take you to change course of following through on an existing general solve?

          Good luck!

          • technically speaking…but the long of the short of it is, the clues will get the job done. I’m really curious about the correct solve…you?
            A ton of gray matter has been spent!

  64. Dal

    I agree completely that this idea is useless. Whoever was within 200′ or 500′ may not even know who they are, and if Forrest’s comment about this has not yielded the find by now, they may not even be involved anymore.

    I have now read both books and most of his comments and videos. After the fact, it is too bad he ever mentioned this at all. In my solve, the most useful comment was from his radio interview of October 2010 where he indicated that “Resolve and Imagination” would be the way to solving the poem.

    Franklin

  65. Toby Younis from a Gypsyies Kiss, if I understood correctly, thinks that last two stanza’s and the first stanza of the poem ate there for legal reasons, and will not help in finding the treasure. Forrest has said that where warm waters halt is the first clue. What is the last clue – is it look quickly down your quest to cease? And, if it is, what about the last two stanzas – Is there really no useful information there as far as finding the treasure is concerned?

    • Hi TomB: if Toby wants to dismiss half the poem as nothing but legalese, that’s his prerogative. But if he insists on this interpretation, I hope he has no expectations about ever solving WWWH, let alone finding the chest.

    • Zap. I believe that cold, brave, and in the wood must have some bearing on the poem solution. If so, what part of the journey do you think they apply to?

      • Tom B
        yes the influence of these things, they are of the specific place, but I found a place of this kind with a walk of 10 miles of one way and 10 miles of turn that totals 5 hours of walk, being thus 20 miles, apparently it seems the specification of the measurement of box bronze 10x10x5, very interesting, right?

    • TomB: agreed on those 3 words being relevant to the solution. As for the part of the journey they apply to, I think they are closer to the end than to the beginning.

    • Zap. They could describe the area that includes the blaze and treasure. But, if you add marvel gaze and tarry scant, that seems like a lot of information to describe one location. Why so many words?

    • Legal reasons? … in a poem… a contract of type? A last will and testament?
      I’m with Zap on this one… I’d like to see a Judge pull legality out of that rabbit hat.
      ambiguity:
      1. the quality of being open to more than one interpretation; inexactness.
      2. doubtfulness or uncertainty of meaning or intention: to speak with ambiguity; an ambiguity of manner. 2. an unclear, indefinite, or equivocal word, expression, meaning, etc.: a contract free of ambiguities; the ambiguities of modern poetry. <<<<<.

      *In the law of contracts, ambiguity means more than that the language has more than one meaning upon which reasonable persons could differ.
      *In contract law, ambiguity is a term used to describe situations in which the terms of a contract have multiple definitions or refer to multiple subjects.

      The Honorable Judge Easy Peasy verdict's… case closed!

      • TomB,
        What I think is hard to explain… the basics are, stanza 5 tells of the location, stanza 6 helps explain the location… is the easiest way to explain.

        But you have to remember something about my posting… I can chat about many different views / methods of the poem, from point to point stomping, to time being involved, to a visual affect involvement, to information in the field, to multiple meanings of word usages etc. etc.

        I know that many get confuse if they read one of my post on the blaze thread and another on the hoB thread and yet another on the Oddy thread, and not follow them… more than likely from one thread to another, i’m just chatting about possibilities of that part of the conversation, and not the poem as a “solve.”

        I always get a chuckle when others have told me they know how my mind works…lol… ask Goofy or Loco, Colokid, JCM or some of the more seasoned searchers if they got me figured out… LOL, if fenn ever read my postings he’d probably would think about finishing what he started.

        Things I say are to provoke thoughts… whether new or old.

    • I always enjoy meeting the chase searchers. I had a long talk with a searcher on the phone this evening. She is the one that bought me a book, but ours still has not arrived. Just by the names of the chapters it sounds like a fun read. I hope Virginia enjoys her gift as well.

      • I don’t have book either yet… Feels like when I was a kid and I didn’t understand what the cool kids said!

        Well, may you and yours be well. Virgina Diane seems like an angel. Glad you two could help one another out.

        Peace!

  66. Searchers…
    While looking for one of the clues, I found a 1980 nickel. (The nickel is still there BTW.) Has anyone else noticed that nickel? Any suggestions as to whether it is related to TTOTC? Thanks in advance for any ideas.
    BTW , it was great to chat with some of you at the book signing. Our kids love their books!
    Safe searching, everyone!
    Geoff
    “Have flashlight, will travel”

  67. I think if I had the correct WWWH, the rest would be logical.
    I never put my 9 clues on the board. So, here they are:

    1. Begin at ———- WWWh
    2. keep going
    3. Put in ———- Below HOB
    4. keep going
    5. Found it ——— the Blaze
    6. Take it
    7. keep going
    8. know ———— the answer
    9. Be brave ——- you got it.

    • OS2 – you left out a couple of important items, as far as I know.

      Where is your “Canyon Down”? (#2?)
      Where is your “Meek Place”? (#4)
      Where is your “END” place (push #5 down)
      Where is your “No Paddle up your creek”? (Push #5 further down)
      Where is your “Just Heavy Loads Place”? (#5 further down)
      Where is your “Water High Place”? (#5 even further down
      Where is your “Tarry Scant/marvel gaze” place (If it is a thing)

      Darn, it appears to me that you have left out about 1/2 of the clues. What do you think?

      But that’s just how I see the clues – JDA

      • JDA,.. those are just things you see along the way, like kids in the back seat on the drive to grandma’s house counting off a McDonalds, a firehouse, a Starbucks, a RR station, a bridge, a steeple, etc. They’re probably abundant and marginally significant, not like the 3 destination points. Keeping it simple.

        I think the route probably has natural & logical flow along these spans. If it were tricky or tortured, it wouldn’t be head-slapping easy afterwards. The 3 designation points are essential, and at the 3rd one, the past tense ‘found’, I think has meaning different than a present tense of “find”. It would have been just as easy to say “If you ARE wise & find…”. I think the past tense form works like the ‘As” of the first line… it hints at some prior experience. (It may also imply that some act of manipulation or manufacturing by the hunter is necessary… a dilemma still for me).

        I’m looking at ‘riches new and old’ as 2 specific time layers in one lifetime (not a broad historical or geographic continuum). I’m probably wrong. For me it’s untestable, so I have to build on intuitions that materialize in the night like all those zombies, errr, kids in Halloween costumes.

        • OS2, It sounds like a good idea to try two layers of time using riches new and old. Especially since it is the line right before the set of clues. Good luck with it.

  68. 1) Do you think the path outlined in the poem can be safely traveled in person?
    I wonder if Forrest intended for searchers to literally follow the clues in person with boots on the ground.

    2) Or is it a path that should only be traveled on a map?
    I’ve read solves that (if followed literally) would require searchers to travel down dangerous canyons (where there are no parallel roads or trails to drive or hike down). In these solves, the blaze can only (safely) be reached through a shortcut or another route.

    • My rule of thumb has always been – “Don’t go where a 79 or 80 year old man could not go.

      In my solve, Forrest COULD have walked the entire distance, over a few days. Did he? I doubt it. I think that Marvin – Forrest’s Dad drove Forrest to the “Camping/fishing spot”. Forrest then did a LOT of hiking in the hills. He then found “His Special Place”. He then decided where he wanted to be buried once he was a LOT older. He kept this place in mind for many years. He revisited the area many times in the intervening years – finding many “Treasures – new and old.”

      He got cancer – he beat cancer – he formulated his plan to “Take it with him” – and then decided to implement the plan – even if it did not include his demise.

      He “Hid” indulgence in a place that is a bit more accessible than his original “Special Place” – and today we search.

      The poem leads me to the general area, and “A” blaze
      The poem leads me to “A” second blaze
      The poem leads me to “A” third blaze – walking past “His Special Place.”
      The poem leads me back down the mountain to “A”
      blaze that points me to EXACTLY where Indulgence is hidden.
      The poem and the last blaze will take me to the EXACT spot Indulgence is hidden, and two additional Blazed will point to the EXACT spot Indulgence rests in repose.

      Sounds unlikely doesn’t it? I agree, but this is where the poem has led me. One final trip, and I shall know. IF I am
      correct, I will dance a jig and sing an aria. If I am wrong, I will probably quietly exit stage left, and be heard from no more. JDA

      • JDA
        Your thinking is very good, but I will not discourage you, because you only have a flame in the poem of your ff, say, to the end of a good hiding place, I use google map, to search and mark specific points with images or objects , the poem has keyword that says the exact place, as well as his English ligua, which indicates a person or animal or an object, I see the poem as his ff was in the war, so I am an f-100 fighter pilot, if my church is in the rocky mountains, my final resting place will also be.
        Words from your FF.
        I can not see from google map or google heart treasure, so from above do not see the treasure, this would be flying in the search place, so I’m an aviator.
        For you to use c-14 carbon, date old trees and other objects.
        There is a 2 to 4 type of tree that lives up to 5,500 years and some reaches 11,000 years c-14 used to measure layers of wood or bark of the old trees, whose 2 types have in the STATE OF NEW MEXICO AND STATE OF COLORADO, a type grows in rocky mountains and the other in a nearby basin of waters, but there is also a tree with pink or reddish wood that if exposed its wood change the tone to a brown, I just do not remember if this happens in the sun or in the water, and this tree grows low.
        I would like to show you how I think just by showing you some scrapbbooks from your ff, just tell me if you are interested, my key words from the poem are points of indication
        De – side or side to a place. (key)
        there – point or beginning of a place or destination. (key)
        poem = How did I go there alone? (point of a place or destination)
        read the book and the poem 6 times, find the place on the map mark an X your place of search is described in the question your ff made to the teacher as a child difference in measures.
        If you have created interest in what I think, after all it is not enough to read and reread you have to understand the story and know how to interpret it to discover the real place of rest of the indulgence, remember a child knows, because she is learning meaning of each word in the school, this is a very strong tip.
        good hunting safe there ..

        • rhonny
          Are you referring to Bristlecone pines by any chance? I included one in my stickman drawing entered in the recent contest. I’m not much of an artist, so as ff might also suggest – use your imagination! See the contest discussion thread and next-to-last drawing under page 6.

          • Yes Very nice! Love your mountains! It’s a great drawing! Also the Rock art reminds me of the tablets found showing location of the lost Dutchman mine. Very nice!
            Did you see my entry? I cracked my self up drawing it! Got a good laugh at myself.

          • Lou Lee
            Thank you. There were so many great drawings entered that I imagine made judging a very difficult task – all winners to these tired and weakened eyes. I kicked myself a bit after I submitted my drawing for I had forgotten to add ducks and alligators in my river, a bell, a jar and a rainbow like in yours. I had to look again to be sure which entry was yours. Montana, eh? Obvious to me you have much better drawing skills than me. Like your imagination.

  69. Mr. Fenn, said that the clues get easier after the first clue. Maybe we should take that literally? Maybe we complicate things unnecessarily? I wonder if the places we say no to, are the places we should be looking? I tend to look for anything that grabs my attention, but that isn’t solving a clue, that’s just me running stuff through my own filter. I think maybe it needs some kind of a step lighter approach?

    • James,
      You could be right… most wwh solves are large bodies of water or more than one. And of course a canyon needs to be huge, right? not unlike a creek must be either a dry bed or small stream, but never could it be just a narrow passage way. Or mean something else entirely different as a clue or none place.

      You say; ‘lighter approach’ what exactly does that imply? Not thinking of the alternatives, the possibilities, the WhatIF’s or the KiSS idea that everything is what it should be only? I mean, searchers did solve two clues and maybe as many as four… but they did realize they did?
      Ya gotta wonder what was going through their minds while on location and walking by all these huge clues…

      So just how much easier do the clues get if nobody knows what they are while standing right in front of them? or having as many as four [ half solved ] and still may not know it? I mean fenn stated; a deep thinker, right? Isn’t a “lighter approach” just the opposite.

      But, if your lighter approach means, not needing to know about celebrities, and other’s poems or books, that every other word in the book is a clue or hint and leads to a kitchen sink solve… I’d kinda agree. Fenn’s example video about the backwards bike should tell us… adjustments to everyday thinking is needed.
      Straight forward does not always mean ‘easy.’
      ‘Consecutive’ does not always mean ‘Contiguous.’
      A mirror isn’t always about opposite, but can be about the past. Time it takes to see that opposite reflection.
      Adjustment isn’t always about relearning, but learning about an alternative.

      “If it was ‘easy’ anyone could do it.”

      • I think a lighter approach, might be the adjustments to everyday thinking. Maybe thinking deeply, is about looking for simplicity? Like “show the poem to a kid”, or his comment about “new eyes”.

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