Where Warm Waters Halt…

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This is for a discussion about Where Warm Waters Halt. We’ve all got ideas that didn’t work out or we are willing to share…I think we can give folks just starting out some ideas for the kinds of places that might just be the place Where Warm Waters Halt…or not!

Let the discussion begin…

dal…

179 thoughts on “Where Warm Waters Halt…

  1. I’m really excited to get into the search. Being from NY it isn’t just down the road for me… I feel my first starting place will be Warm Springs near Brown’s Canyon Colorado. It really stands out to me for the following reasons:
    1. The sheer coincidence of the names and several of the poems key words coming together.
    2. I’ve never heard of a “warm springs” before. My whole life I’ve only known of Springs, Hot Springs and Cold Springs.
    3. I’ve seen several locals note that the Brown Warm Springs run into the cold Arkansas.
    4. Fenn said several people have been near it, perhaps it’s just been overlooked? The canyon looks like a big place for something so small to hide…

    • Nice to see another searcher come around…fresh eyes and new ideas. I cross over to the empire state occasionally for work and have fond memories of many forays into the country there. Have fun with the Chase and as a side note, Dal’s blog is an info research gold mine for all things Fenn related.

    • The first 4 line’s of the poem tell he went into his vault to get the chest, so when he left his home to go on his journey he began it where warm waters halt, his pond. So he is hinting for us to start the search from the same type of place a pond. Begin it where warm waters halt, is the start for both FF and us? a pond?

    • No one really knows for sure. Fenn is a master at saying one thing, and meaning another. So translation is left up to the reader 😛

    • IMO…No…Based on f’s comment…

      “When you read the poem, it looks like just simple words there. But I guarantee you I worked on that thing… I felt like an architect drawing that poem.”

      Also IMO…If you attempt to solve f’s poem by taking words literally as written, then you are oversimplifying the terminology he employed in constructing his poem.

      There is a lot more to figuring out what the clues mean and understanding what they say than simply finding “warm waters”, taking off “down” a “canyon”, and looking for a river or creek to “put in below” some “home of Brown” where somebody once lived. None of the above terms mean what you might think they do upon a literal reading.

      It is the reason the poem is so challenging and the chase could go on for many years before someone eventually works out the correct interpretations of the clues. Again, IMO.

      • You are correct I believe. There is no mention of warm water in TTOTC. So if you study the book really carefully and think you will discover what it is. It’s not what everyone thinks, just as ff has said.

      • I believe that as well SS. As to which words in the poem are literal and which have nothing to do with the geography mentioned it’s hard to tell without extra information.

        • In an email ff tested a person’s solve and asked, “is there a canyon on your island?”. So the canyon must be a literal geographic feature.

      • Yeah, but i read FF said that an average human being can solve it without any special knowledge of anything. Just read the poem and get a good map. Looks like he’s fooling everybody by saying that. Could also be a paradox.

        But in case you’re right, we have to get creative and philosophic?
        WWWH could reffer to a part of nature where animals (Waters, as life ‘flows’ in time) live (and eventually die = halt) in peace (Warm).

        Taking it the dirty minded road: maybe it’s the home or place where he lost his virginity and took his warm waters in her canyon down. It’s from that geographical place we start climbing or descending in search of the chest, etc.

        Maybe WWWH is the home of FF (Warm, halted when FF left that home starting his own family etc).

        Maybe it’s a gas station in or near a known hot place where you halt to cool down the radiator (bet FF drove an oldtimer 🙂 ) or yourself by drinking an ice cold beer or where you can take a leak.

        Maybe FF has his own way of interpretating words and Water to him means sand or trees or leaves or the air which contains water, or…or…

        It has to be simpler then that, hasn’t it? In case not, we’re never going to find the trove in this life. Maybe in the year 2150+.

        • David,
          Didn’t he mention something about bringing a child with you to solve the poem? Did he mean in order to share the experience with, or because a child’s innocent, naive mind would have all the solutions needed and it’s really not that difficult once found looking back at the clues/hints?

          • Hey TSLA,
            I think the clues and the meaning of the poem has to be (interpreted) simple. The dificult part is to find the geographical starting point.
            And therfore we also need a good map. What is a good map? To me it’s a sure thing FF has some old maps to his disposal, maps with old names for mountains, areas, creeks, summits, put-ins, trails, etc.

            So in short: warm waters are warm waters, at least it’s water.
            Too far to walk can be 4 miles, 10 miles but also 100 miles.
            The whole search area is titanic and everything is relative and subjective.

  2. Happy to share an unlikely thought: One of my more extreme (and furthest north) interpretations put it near Great Falls Montana, the point at which steam ships could go no further. Too much research and reading on my part, perhaps?
    “Just show it to a kid.” Need to remember that. : )

  3. In section WWWH 8 Stephan said;

    Divergent question: Where is Forrest? I’ve never seen him absent from the discourse for this long. No postings on Mysterious Writings either. Has he decided to stop interacting with the community? The Chase will languish without his presence, IMO.

    Well that reminds me of a time a little while back when ff seemed removed from the chase for a while, Dal even announced that Forrest would not be too active in the discussions, but something happened to SPARK a Forrest Fire in him in March or April 2017, when he suddenly posted many scrapbooks and showed up for Fennboree and other appearances and interviews.

    What caused that reaction in him? What my belief is that ff has been dropping hints about the Chase and what peaks his interest perhaps what he gets a kick out of is showing up in quiet comment filtering what is said, perhaps by others who have discovered or posted things, what do you think?…

    Now I know some say that ff does not reveal any particular knowledge or hint as to indulgences’ whereabouts or if someone is getting close, well I hold that Forrest is human and we humans tend to show interest where it is warranted, if you believe like I do that ff has dropped hints, sometimes in Freudian slips or even intentionally, just because it gives him a thrill or a level of adrenal excitement….After all why did he do this?

    The answere-s I already know, I’ve done tired….at 87 he still likes the Thrill of the Chase and teasing us may be part of the ANSWER.

    TT

    • TT,
      You can believe what you would like to believe. Personally, I don’t think fenn is dropping hint as much as giving us a thought process to ponder. I mean, just look at the useless clue debate of 2013 as an example.
      Or; {in part}
      “…I am determined to stay aloof of providing any additional clues that are useful. Everyone has the same information to work with… I said in my book that
      the solution will be difficult but not impossible. If it was easy anyone could do it. Whoever finds the treasure will mostly earn it with their imagination. I have done only a few things in my life that were truly planned. Hiding the treasure chest is one of them. And at the end, the one
      who finds the gold will not feel lucky, but instead, will ask himself, ”what took me so long?”

      I’m not saying that things fenn has stated are not helpful… I mean we know wwwh is the first clue and we know there are many, we know or seem to know that there might be more to “nailing down” that clue then just finding its location [ apparently that has been done and continues to be done, yet from fenn’s point of view, searchers didn’t know.

      I think, to hope fenn is handing out hints because something “sparked a Forrest Fire in him” is great for the obsessed to think in their little weird worlds … Oh! I told fenn this and he said that, my deity is personally helping me and at the same time playing fair with all… but only I know the truth. [lol and over the years some searchers have stated almost those words].

      Seriously… one question present to fenn was;
      “Is it an advantage to buy The Thrill of the Chase and Too Far to Walk?
      There are hints in my TTOTC book that can help solve the clues in the poem.”
      Ya really have to ask yourself why didn’t fenn mention the second book when directly asked? And why, because of the second book many have jumped the bandwagon that a vehicle is now a must to have to travel clues.
      Or this Q&A;
      – “You have said some things in scrapbook entries that seem too bizarre to be true, like the fact that you keep your jeans on when you shower.  Are you at times just pulling people’s legs?
      FF: Yes, I didn’t think that comment would fool many people. I was trying to make a point.”
      Yet many were fooled (foolish?)

      Or this Q&A { that kills me laughing each time I read a post about it by others }…
      – “People have become fixated on you telling them to bring a sandwich and a flashlight.  Are they just wasting their time focusing on these things as clues? 
      FF: They certainly are not clues.”

      Ha! but all one has to do is read a day or two back in the blogs and see just how many searcher use the flashlight and snack comment as part of their perfect little solve.
      I have to agree with Sam’s post above ~ Sam wrote ~’Also IMO…If you attempt to solve f’s poem by taking words literally as written, then you are oversimplifying the terminology he employed in constructing his poem.’

      I think the same goes for the ATF statements… searcher oversimplify what fenn might actually be relaying, IF he is relaying anything informative at all.

      Disclaimer, footnote, politically correct response, no need for the blog police… just BSing on a blog site and holding back on the fluffinutter…~ The above comment is my personal opinion.

      • Seeker, I like the way you analyze the clues, but I am not talking just about clues, my emphasis is on HINTS, no one would put up better than a million in treasure and not get some Thrill out of watching, listening and learning what people who are searching will do to find it, my point is ff is HUMAN and likes the attention, when I revealed in my “Winter Thoughts” (I) solve that Forrest Fenn had said “My father would know where I hid the Treasure” everyone before that thought I was making stuff up, but apparently, I was correct, not only did ff reveal where, IMO he took his 80 year old fathe to his special place.. Now I almost got thrown off the blogs for sayin it, but sometimes you just gota go against the grain…Seeker you are very analytical and even methodical, so are the multitude of posters here and I will not name names but after all is said and done we are dealt 5 cards, 4 and a joker in the Chase, it all BOILS down to the correct hunch..

        Answer this; why did ff use WW1 as the (incorrect) subject war in “For Whom The Bell Tolls”? What was the weather and why the Border Line Biddies?

        TT

        • TT,
          I have a hard to intelligently giving good arguments, for or against, what a hint is in the book [TTOTC]… I know the stories but attempting to find hints confuses me more that attempting to understand the poem and see if the book may indicate my thoughts as holding water. I mean, some fight to the death that picture and illustrations are clues… yet we have fenn saying; hints in the “text…” so what do I know…

          But ya made me chuckle at what you said; ~ ‘… we are dealt 5 cards, 4 and a joker in the Chase, it all BOILS down to the correct hunch.’ Especially when fenn has be admit in saying “The person that finds it,” Fenn said, “is going to be a person who thinks and plans and has an analytical mind and uses logic, not someone who has a hunch.” 

          I’m not trying to be semantic or hardheaded or a dang knowitall… weeding through our thoughts about the poem is difficult enough, add ATF information over the years and I can see why some are only working on a poke and hope and hunches. And like you said… ff is only human… I agree he enjoys the interaction with others that the challenge brings him, But I also see 20 plus years of dedication, planning and execution of the challenge that, tells me, He’s not going to waste all that effort and finances just to hint in 170 plus SB’s and hundreds of Q&A’s or interviews etc. etc. to help solve his hard work.

          Just look at some of the reasons we seen actual hard information be given… Fair play that wwwh is not a dam because of conversations that others didn’t know about.
          Not under water forces to be told because of, well Idiots, who attempt raging rivers or waters in winter.

          I get what your saying, but logically, I don’t understand why fenn would volunteer more ‘hints’ ‘clues’ that would be of help to solve the clues or locate the chest…
          An example of jumping the gun with fenn’s ATF would be, when the school kids asked the same question that has been asked for almost seven years… when was the chest was hidden… summer. Is it a hint or a clue? or just another piece of information to tell searchers, winter searching is not the brightest idea to plan, which we have been told many times.

          And thanks for noticing that I do attempt to analyze the crap out of this challenge… but to be honest… all I have is a big pile of, um err, Fluffinutter at the moment. I’ll leave the repeated postings of hopeful facts and I knows, for all the knowitalls.

          But while we’re on the WWWH topic thread… for you and anyone… why is “AND” used in that stanza?
          Doesn’t And, in this manor of usage, mean; `and` warm waters [halt] take it in the canyon down?
          Not unlike; the ants circle and take it in the trunk of the tree down.

          • Seeker: When was the chest hidden…summer, follow up question mr Fenn, summer here in the Rockies or summer in Australia (Dec-Feb)?

          • Chris – would it have been natural for Forrest to answer the question – posed by school kids in the USA – that it was in the summer in Australia? I think not. JDA

          • Seeker, I think your right about that ‘and’, and all the other ‘and’s’. There are huge gullies of unsaid data squeezed between the ands and the phrases on either side of them. I think some walk on the words as though lthey were stepping stones across a lawn instead of step-able rocks & logs across a raging creek.

          • Chris,
            Why believe anything the man says if you think his answers was related to any other place then where he hid the chest? The thought that it’s 5 o’clock some where works well for the lushes… But the man was answering question from school kids.

            Everyone knows that millionaires don’t lie to kids… just congress, fake news, leaders of other countries…

      • Nicely put Seeker and Sam…I’ll also add that I believe it may be “wise” to exercise caution when asking Fenn anything Chase related. Many of his ATF’s seem to be in response to the many unclear/open-ended Q’s folks toss out there.
        This morning I spent some more time re-reading the “Forest Gets Mail” submitted with the school kids Q’s and his answers. Some seem to be clear cut…but most could be taken either way one looks at them. Just more of the same…

        • Ken,
          Yep, and fenn said he would answer the question as presented… I would assume he does the same for all Q&A’s. Only he may have felt the need to explain to ‘kids’ what adults should already understand.

          But as TT was saying [paraphrasing] fenn enjoys having some fun with searchers… and his wording does make one think… WTH was that about… a clue? a hint? an example of thought? a joke?

          But, its Q&A’s like Becky’s is what gets my wandering mind out of first gear… put the effort in reading, and forwarding and have posted a Q&A, and decline answer it.

      • I had actually thought about a meal and a flashlight before reading ff’s comment. stating as such. If you think about it. Forrest may have waited until dark to hide the treasure when nobody was around to see him do it. Same holds true when I find the treasure I’ll wait until dark to retrieve it. There are a lot of crazies that would kill for what’s in that box. Or at the least try to hold you up for it. Possession being 9/10th of the law. You can’t definitively prove that you found it, before retrieving it, without broadcasting it to the world. Just my opinion as always.

        • Remember, FF said that he made two trips from his car in one afternoon, which leads me to believe that he hid the chest during daylight hours, but was parked in a remote place without a lot of human traffic. If the prize in concealed in your backpack, I don’t think that the Crazies would be a threat to you. They would just assume it was filled with binoculars and a raincoat. Having said that, a flashlight and a little extra food and water are never a bad idea when embarking on an unfamiliar trail.

          • Hoblin You’re correct about when FF hid TC. But, at that time 1.No one knew it existed,(except a few close friends) Now millions know. 2. No one knew where he had gone or what he was doing. 3..He was an old man, probably carrying a fly rod for cover. Who would pay any attention.to him? and most importantly, 4. He was carrying stuff in and not out. With thousands of searchers out there, chances are good that others would have the same location idea as you do. You may have more figured out. Don’t be naive .to the fact that predictors do exist Some natural, some temporary. Lets say you’ve been researching this thing for 7 years. Your constantly on line looking for clues.You even dream about it. Your obsessed with finding it no matter what it took. After 20 or so road trips leaving your family in critical debt, you finally have it figured out. And with everything you could scare up you went to your last solve. You hike to the spot you think the blaze is and watch someone pull the chest out of a bush or something. Many would snap.. I’m sticking with my crazies theory. Better safe than sorry. IMO Scotty

  4. * Let’s coin a new phrase. You can’t have a “correct solve” unless you can knowingly go to within several steps of the treasure chest. Otherwise you have a “general solve.” What do you think? f (posted June 2nd, 2017)

    Is someone getting close, but not cigar? SO to mperfekt and all who hear:

    Something IMO will allow a searcher to draw and X or + at the exact spot, so why this post, why now?

    http://mysteriouswritings.com/forrest-fenn-treasure-facts/

    TT, terrifically enthusiastic about savin the Rockies!

  5. Where WWH?

    Travertine is a type of limestone that is most often formed at warm or hot mineral springs. As the warm, mineral-saturated water reaches the earth’s surface, the dissolved mineral matter precipitates in to thin layers of calcium carbonate (CaCO3 ). Over time the minerals build up into deposits of travertine. Because of the unique manner of which it is formed, travertine can be harvested and renewed.

    https://www.geocaching.com/geocache/GC4R8PB_thermopolis-travertine?guid=fdea11c6-1c21-4790-a136-0fa164fa5eec

  6. I maintain my opinion that WWWH is Ojo Caliente Spring in Yellowstone National Park beside the Firehole River.
    It is also my opinion that other clues and the hints given in books and scrapbooks can be identified along the Grande Loop Road in Yellowstone.
    For example, the scrapbook about FF finding a Mammoth tusk was a hint about Mammoth Hot Springs in northwest Yellowstone. The scrapbook about the porcelaine bird that he called Minerva was a hint about the Minerva terraces at Mammoth Hot Springs (which are made of travertine). Indulgence was once said to be a sepulcher. Above Mammoth Hot Springs is Sepulcher Mountain. ….
    You get the idea. When I read FF’s stories I can usually pinpoint a place or name in Yellowstone National Park. It is a place that is dear to him, and a place where you may take a child and an 80 year old man on a search.
    But enough about me and my OPINIONS. I have done my armchair searches and posted GPS coordinates and images. If WWWH isn’t in Yellowstone my opinions are bogus.

    • Hello Michael. I had returned from Yellowstone and noticed some new things which were mentioned/hinted in scrapbooks, etc. that I hadn’t noticed beforehand from previous visits. These places are certainly on my mind and trying to understand placements to the poem if they truly mean anything.

    • I’ve generally stayed away from even looking at Yellowstone as it seems like with as much focus is on it, it would have been found by now if it was there.

      I still mostly believe that, but I will say that I find your interpretation/link from TTOTC to a location the most compelling I’ve seen (assuming it all checks out which I have no reason to doubt – like I said, I haven’t looked at Yellowstone).

      There are a lot of tenuous, at best, interpretations of TTOTC chapters out there – it’s refreshing to see one that makes more sense.

      Cheers.

  7. TX Ken – thanks for your reply

    yes, i also believe that the trail from #1 to #9 may cover a large distance (“bigger picture/higher things/too far to walk” etc) and your said idea has explained the missing factor in setting a suitable geo-scaling proportion, imho
    ..and i agree that a small search area may unfairly invite searchers to stumble across the TC without solving all the clues. which doesn’t seem like sound architecture to me either

    also, given that Forrest always knew where the hide-spot was destined to be, he had free reign to back-engineer a puzzle as large (or small perhaps) as he wished, without parameters or restrictions, just pure imagination and lotsa (local?) geo-knowledge

    ..but large enough at least, to make Edward Teach proud 🙂

    • Message received.

      Sorry I missed your first 2 inquiries. The structure of this message board, with threads constantly being “closed”, renders continuity of discussion almost impossible. I didn’t see your original 2 inquiries or I would have responded, then. It would also be helpful if posters would not post off-topic comments, as these comments further interfere with continuity of discussion. But I know that off-topic comments will continue to be made anyway.

      In summary, there are multiple reasons why I do not accept a “natural features only” interpretation of the clues. And an understanding of “geographic scale” can help free searchers from such a straitjacket assumption of “natural features” only, provided that said searchers have an open mind.

      Ken (in Texas) 🙂

  8. Zaps (re: a physical map is a reasonable interpretation)

    are you quietly implying that Forrest answered an obviously open-ended question with a specific (and entirely non-elusive) answer?

    hmmm.. sounds like it
    🙂

    • Hi Inquisitive Middle-Earther: Yes, I’m suggesting that Forrest chose to interpret “…but only has your poem and a map of the US Rocky Mountains” to mean a single, physical map. Perhaps if Jenny had instead said Little Indy had “a collection of maps of the U.S. Rocky Mountains,” Forrest might have answered differently. When you say someone “has a map,” isn’t your first impression a paper map rather than a digital map that they’re staring at on their computer?

      • Zaphod73941: I seem to remember ff saying the location wasn’t listed on any map. I could be wrong. Oddly enough I found such place by pure dumb luck. I won’t go into details. But I was a passenger and we drove by a sign that as ff mentioned “rang a bell”. Then it wasn’t hard to understand the first 2 clues. It all just made perfect sense. I believe from reading the blogs that a group is in that location right now. And if I’m right, Franklin and I are both headed there this weekend. (Not together) The sign was a small, weathered, 1x2x1′ board staked to the ground abt 2ft high around tall grass. Not on any map I could find and goodle earth hadn’t posted a pic of the area since 2006. Sometimes exploration and just plain ole dumb luck trumps modern technology lol

      • Scotty: which location do you mean, WWWH? To my knowledge, Forrest has never said WWWH wasn’t on a map, and I don’t see him ever saying such because I think it’s plain as day on a map. But best of luck to you and Franklin on your imminent searches and don’t do anything Forrest wouldn’t do. 🙂

    • Hi Fictional Douglas Adams Character

      perhaps if Jenny had asked him where the TC is located, he might have been specific too ..but i doubt it 🙂

      all i’m saying is, if Sherlock Jens had asked me that same question, i woulda jumped at the chance to answer in an honest (yet highly elusive) manner – wouldn’t you?

      i mean, it gives searchers the perfect agar to create their own red-herrings after all – and a quiet chuckle for Forrest, to boot 🙂

  9. hey Seeker, any idea why TPTB felt another wall map was…needed ??? (referring to last years…addition). Your recent exchange with TT seems flawed, I didn’t read TT suggesting hunch vs logic, but hunch and logic. In past, I twice used logic to reverse engineer stuff BUT started logic pursuit behind hunch/es. My 1st “trick” was cracking the numerical chip code on computer simm chips, whereby I eventually deciphered embedded code for size, refresh, edo/fpm, etc. vs common maker, DOM, access. This allowed me to swoop on electronic salvage yards and computer meets while knowing exactly what I was buying, AND make major moola…nearly 20 years ago, probably before most here had a home computer. Yes, logic saved the day BUT playing hunches drastically reduced variable path count. No, I’m not a computer nerd (I’m a “mech nut”) but nearly 50 yrs ago, I was taken by cryto while reading Civil War stuff and stumbled upon Anderson code history (and impact on US Army intel). My 2nd “trick” with reverse engineering was solving classical mechanical limitations of Stirling Engines via reducing thermodynamics to graphics…whereby (follow this closely) my graphic solutions were akin taking simple base 10 math problems, transposing to other bases, performing calcs, then transposing back, whereupon my answers were different than original base 10 (crude example only).

    Meanwhile, FF chase is…child’s play IMO where players are bitten by gold fever, many wasting what little money AND time they have left. As “Harry” said: “A man’s got to know his limitations.”

    • PS – I think Chase poem can be reverse engineered due to FF comments, and prefer a “moving target” with add’l data points. However, I chuckle at all the cypto stuff that some suggest when all I see only Old World metaphors that require old world solutions.

      Reviewing archives here, I enjoyed searcher comments regarding “The Perfect Question” to ask FF, but this was back in May 2015 when many were…clueless…WWWH was clue 1, despite this cat was already out of the bag. Fast forward to today, where most know clue 1, and that there’s 3-4 clues in stanza 2, and that HOB is a clue, my question would be: what #clue is HOB? If this could be chiseled in stone, we might be able to get somewhere…

      Goofy – “So you like fishing and hunting without getting any game? This is a hunt not a hike.” Your comment in Perfect Question thread caught my eye, and begs the question, is it not: the thrill of the chase ???

  10. Mr. Fenn said read his book (the thrill of the chase) then read his poem many times then read his book again. He names many waters in his book but there’s one water he doesn’t name. ” In love with Yellowstone “.

  11. I would like to give my BOTG experience the week of Aug 14, but will wait for inquiries. I feel I know the location based on a few things. Firstly, the first 4 lines of the poem state the TC is in New Mexico. Secondly, why would ff only make 1000 copies of his book and have it in a Santa Fe book store? My WWWH is definitely the river Ojo Caliente (hot eye river). Going north from where it ends near Espanola, you will go along the Black Mesa on highway 285 (the number has no meaning). Now Google Earth “Vallito Peak, NM”. Looks like a bear head to me (HOB). Remember, ff flew that route many times going to Montana. I will continue with more of my solve if you all are interested because I will not be going back due to health issues and almost getting heat stroke on my journey.

    • Rob, The book “Thrill of the chase” is in it’s 5th or 6th printing. The 5th being 3,500 copies. It has always been available on Amazon.com. If that’s why you think N.M think again. If you’ve read the book, the only time he mentions that state is when he talks about living there. The second clue “home of Brown”. Obviously not the home of someone named Brown as not everyone seeking the chest would know all the Brown families in the Rockies. But it is capitalized. Meaning Person Place or thing. I don’t believe anyone could find all the homes of all the bear in the Rockies. I think you hit on it when you said ff flew many times to Montana. He has a sister in Bozeman and used to fish in Yellowstone. The Treasure could very well be between the 2. Won’t know until someone finds it. And you could very well be right. The place I (and it appears several others) are heading to this weekend, fits all of the clues perfectly. As if I hadn’t said that before lol

      • So tirue Scotty. No one knows for sure until it is found. However, in my solve, if you take the shape of Black Mesa which buttresses Vallito Peak, it looks extremely like Long Island Sound where Gardiners Island is near. Coincidence?

    • I can see the bear head also, south side of the peak.My opinion is there is almost no chance something that obscure being HOB or part of any other clue.

  12. Hi good luck. I’m also from NY, been hard to put boots to ground from here. Firehole river is where my solve has warm waters halting.

  13. My warm waters halt has nothing to do with water. But I’m usually wrong. I should probably solve the poem, and then do the exact opposite. I don’t think WWWH is a hotspring, which probably means WWWH is a hotspring. I hope everyone is well this Labor Day weekend. The leaves are turning gold and the geese are honking their way south in Alaska.

  14. Well tomorrow I will know if my WWWH is correct. It’s my first year searching for the treasure even though I have known about it for a few years. I have been out 4 times with the 5th time being tomorrow. The search area shrinking everytime. As of last trip I have a solution for every line of the poem. I know exactly where I am going and it will either be there or I will have to start from the beginning again. As I have read many times I expect my “solve” to come up empty but can’t help feeling the Thrill. So much so that I may not sleep much tonight. You can be sure that if I am that 1 out of 50,000 that I will post pictures and such.

    • I hope you post pictures and a report regardless. I thoroughly enjoy reading about and seeing the pictures of various folks’ adventures. I have no idea where TC is, but I have developed a fine list of places to visit and hikes to take with my dogs based on many wonderful posts on Dal’s site.

    • I wish you the very best! Isn’t searching fun? Good for the soul even if Indulgence remains aloof – as she has for seven years. JDA

  15. Copper: The only water that is warm all year around, in the Rockies, come out of the ground or hot water heater. ff also mentions “put in” as if putting in a boat or something, “waters high”, and “braved the cold”. All are consistent with water all year round in the Rockies. What are your thoughts if not water?

    • Hi Scotty. WWWH is not an actual water location for me, it’s a date in history. Put in below HOB is at a water collection area, and worth the cold refers to learning the truth about the past, a truth that is ugly. The cold hard truth. My solve is weird I suppose.

      • Copper: I don’t think any solve is weird as long as it doesn’t involve jumping into a raging river. FF is a history buff. It wouldn’t be too far fetched for him to add a little history along with getting people out into nature. My solve was reached a bit by history also. I will give you credit for thinking outside the box. I’m sure that’s what it will take to win this race. Scotty

        • That’s great! If you want to compare notes you can PM me on chasechat. I’m sure Dal is tired of having to forward my emails!:). Thanks for the positive feedback and best of luck.

  16. Warm waters or melted waters often HALT in a retention area…just another thought south of my better ones…who knows? Might even be some wood there? Many challenging destination spots at my location…but which ones get my energy and effort and which ones very special? Bewildered.

  17. Cold is the absence of heat. … So, anytime water is not ice it has been warmed..hence any water not ice is warm by relation to it having been ice or snow before. There, I said it. Let the chips fall where they may.

  18. Is there anyone else who thinks that WWWH refers to fishing? Fishing regulations are split into two categories. Warm and cold water species.

  19. Pretty much everyone searching in NM, lol. I think searchers should be more than familiar with fishing terms, fishing regulations, etc no matter what state they are searching. I’ve said it before…when I am in the wilds and not in close proximity to a human trail, I’m either fishing or climbing a mountain. There is a very good chance FF found his special spot when he was fishing…maybe even when trying to retrieve his fly after it got tangled up in the backcast. It’s amazing what you find when you look behind yourself.

    • So do you believe this is what ff refers to for how to find the start point? I have not read of others being directed by this hint. Are you familiar with fishing in NM?

      • It could be a way to verify or clarify a start point. Plenty of searchers think so. I keep the regs in my back pocket, so to speak. Very familiar with NM and CO fishing. Mostly because I like to fish though.

          • When flyfishing, I generally am going upstream, against the current. There are lots of variables with current, depth of water, etc. Big fish often hang out in swift current. Don’t always fish the calm pools if you want to catch a linker. If you get my gist, lol.

    • I couldn’t agree more sandy. People forget how much love he had for fishing. He mentions it numerous times in TTOTH. I would really love to know where his favorite fishing spot is. I’ve never seen so many fish shoulder to shoulder like that picture in the book.

    • Hi Sandy: I assume you are aware of mdavis19’s question to Forrest from 6/27/2014:

      “Is any specialized knowledge required to find the treasure? For instance, something learned during your time in the military, or from a lifetime of fly fishing? Or do you really expect any ordinary average person without your background to be able to correctly interpret the clues in the poem? ~ mdavis19”

      Forrest replied: “No specialized knowledge is required mdavis19, and I have no expectations. My Thrill of the Chase book is enough to lead an average person to the treasure. f”

      In light of this Q&A, I would question a solution that depended on fly fishing knowledge (though I very much enjoy the sport).

      • Well Zap, you could be right about specialized knowledge. But by that standard wouldn’t reading a map, using GPS or a map and compass to navigate, using Google Earth or just plain Google to research your solve all be considered specialized knowledge if you didn’t know how to do those things prior? I think we’ve all taught ourselves a lot in this search, out of curiosity and a desire to learn more about topics that hadn’t crossed our field of attention before. Reading fishing regulations isn’t exactly advanced physics, and in my book isn’t that much different than googling exact definitions of words. I’m not suggesting people become experts in flyfishing. I’m suggesting they become curious learners about a subject Mr Fenn is very interested in.

      • I was unaware of this response by FF. I’ve been putting faith in the ‘all you need is the poem and a good map’ and the ‘read the book, read the poem many times, re-read the book slowly’ (or similar) comments that he has made.

        Seeing this one, I now feel so very…..sub-average.

  20. IMO We’re talking about when warm water stops being warm. What is the definition of cold, and to whom? There are several things I believe FF thought about when assembling his clues. First, that it would cover all 4 seasons. many some more than others. Second would be that they wouldn’t be understood by only a handful of people. Examples would be the hoB not being a family named Brown, knowledge of exactly where the brown trout hang out, or a particular Brown mountain. These would be too vague. WWWH is vague as there are at least 50 hot springs between Santa Fe and the Canadian border. But how many have a canyon going down? Each clue narrows the field. The first 2 clues can be narrowed by a geography map and google earth as FF stated. Acceptable to all. The rest you’d need to be there to determine. As always, it’s just my opinion

  21. So when entering a river, you would wade and fish toward a headwater trying not to spook them on your way? Was looking for the answer to the question of; parking at the headwater and then hike downstream to begin fishing or vice versa.

    • ChickenOne…I wade upstream. The fly lands more naturally when casting upriver. Generally speaking. One scenario I entertain-Forrest and his father had a fantastic day fishing together. While looking for a spot close to the river to eat lunch, maybe a pimento sandwich, Forrest happened upon the perfect place to rest in eternity. He kept that in his back pocket for years. It wasnt a river that sees hordes of fishermen…it his smaller, special to him for reasons beyond fishing. Most people find being close to water very soothing. Almost umbilical. That’s one idea, anyway.

      • I totally agree with you Sandy. Knowing rivers could help a lot when solving this riddle. An avid fly fisherman such as Forest , knows how to read and negotiate a river safely. He would also have found special secluded places. I’m no fly fisherman as I haven’t figured out how to do it with one hand.(the other hand has a beer in it). But I do a lot of prospecting in rivers with either waders or scuba gear on. I once found the closest thing to a garden of Eden. You couldn’t get within 2 miles of it by land. He might have stumbled onto such a place as he was working a river or creek. FF says “there will be no paddle up your creek”. FF didn’t need a paddle, he had waders. If you didn’t “put in below thB and go where it’s “no place for the meek” and traverse the “heavy loads and water high” and have to “brave the cold” then you were not wise, did not find the blaze and end will never draw nigh. Just a thought–Scotty

  22. To me, JDA’s well thought out solution that did not lead to the treasure is another example that there are many places in the Rocky Mountains where the poem clues appear to fit, yet the solution is wrong. I seriously doubt that JDA walked by the treasure after putting so much effort into his specific solution. I have to assume that his solution was “correct” for the starting point that he chose. I still keep asking myself, how can I know that the starting point I have chosen is the correct one? So far, I don’t have the answer.

    • Tom,
      I have struggled with trying to answer the same question as well, “how do we know that our staring point is correct?”. As you stated, we can all fit the clue descriptions to numerous, possibly 100’s or more, areas across all States covered by the search area. I feel as if I’m either missing or overlooking something. Still not sure what yet!

    • TheSleepyHollowBard,

      It is very frustrating. Like JDA, I have a “complete” solve that seems to fit all of the poem clues. But, I do not have complete confidence that it will lead me to the treasure because I don’t know that my starting point is correct. I’m still looking for that “something” that will assure me that my starting point is correct. I am convinced that the “key” that Forrest talks about is the missing piece to give me that assurance.

      • Tom B

        You are correct Tom. “The Wood” will tell you where the starting point is. The “Word that is Key” will convince you absolutely that you are in the right area, and when you figure out the Double Omega, nothing in the world will convince you that you are not in the correct area. Just my opinion, and I have had 15 failures JDA

        • JDA

          I only found the “subtle hint” of double omegas this past week. Now I am even more excited about my solve area, but I know I might not find the TC. Thank you for directing me to that hint. I am hoping to find the TC, but I expect not to. Every time I go on the ground I learn more. I have Omegas in my dreams – LOL

          • Isn’t it funny how this adventure becomes part of you? I too had a dream a few nights ago that I found the chest. But I couldn’t open it, I was too terrified. Had me grumpy all the next day.

      • You will have no doubt about wwwh if you are correct. From there though you will be splitting hairs. Since the topic here is in the wood, that connection would be somewhat of a stretch. IMO! I’m still on my first, last and only search for whatever that’s worth.

    • Tom B

      I still feel that my starting place is correct. My problem was that because of Conformation Bias, I allowed myself to think that Google Earth’s elevation numbers were wrong – they were not wrong – I was wrong. 1/2 mild farther up the trail, the numbers match what I feel they must be. Where did I get my elevation numbers? Let’s wait and see if I am correct next time.

      I will give it one-last-try, and then admit I am wrong if the next trip does not produce Indulgence. JDA

      • JDA. If “the wood” is key to identifying where warm waters halt, then I probably have the wrong starting location because I can’t see how “the wood” relates to my starting location (it does, however, relate to my suspected treasure location).

        If your next trip is a last/try, I hope you are only talking about your current solve. Even if that one doesn’t work out, you are still as much in the chase as the rest.

        • Tom B

          There is a very obscure definition for “the wood” that points the way. I know of no one who has been able to dig up this definition other than myself – so don’t fret over it – JDA

          • Possible the obscure definition has been found by others, but discarded at too much of a stretch to be reasonable so never mentioned. Being obscure and a stretch does not mean it is wrong though.

            One thing that replaces the material in trees to make petrified wood is opal. So I can connect in the wood, and WWWH with opal pool as my starting point, but don’t mention because it seems too forced to be correct.

            Or like you they see a good connection but have not shared because they want to search and be sure first.

        • Sorry Tom – I am stuck on my location in Wyoming. I could review it, but my biases in Wyoming would get in the way. email me at SculptorJDA at aol dot com IF you want me to provide input – JDA

          • I have a really great Wyoming solve that is extremely costly to get to. I’d share with you JDA…but I have this fear that someone will claim it for themselves then head for Bermuda!

          • Sorry Copper – I am 75, have a heart problem, and rely on my team to search for me. I am not a good candidate to search for you. JDA

      • Sorry JBL – NO solution yet. I will not publish a solution until I feel that I have exhausted ALL possibilities for my area. My team has said that they are willing to look “At least one more time”. What a team!!! JDA

        • Thx JDA, I thought I had read a post about your well thought out solution. You have to make sure you are done before you divulge your solution. Sounds like you have a great team, and I hope you can go next time too! Good luck!

      • @JBL You haven’t missed it, we’re all waiting!

        Come on JDA, kick down your ancient and obscure definitions for Wood and Quickly!

        • Okay – How about one of the two.

          Quickly = Intelligent and/or pungent aroma (an archaic definition) and Down = downstream. Therefore, “Look quickly down” means that I must: Intelligently examine the pine grove (aeromatic pine needles) that is downstream from the blaze. Hope this helps someone – JDA

          • Quick(ly) also means intelligent(ly) – that is why I say,” I must Intelligently examine…” (She has a quick mind – she is intelligent)
            JDA

          • Wiki Tennyson’s Memoriam, then search for the word ‘quickly.’ In the article it has one meaning, but there is another meaning in the poem which I discovered in an old dictionary, and thats what led me to the Wiki article.

          • Oops, I said that wrong… search ‘quick’ in Tenneyson’s poem, not the wiki article. 133 cantos… before TV era!! am now thinking maybe more clues are rooted in classical poetry.

          • OS2 – appears you missed similar hint from tighterfocus on Sept 4…

            “Matt, that’s very observant of you . . . about the word “quickly”. I think it’s an important word, and I suggest we all look it up in a dictionary.”

            No hocus-pocus IMO

          • @JDA, thanks! Not sure…..perhaps if ‘stinking creek’ is the site! My guess is your ‘wood’ is something to do with scary creek? What gets me is others have found or been at the first two clues without your ancient/archaic definitions so just can’t buy into them but still try and keep an open mind and keep it simple. Thanks for keeping the blog lively too! Best

          • Cholly;

            Stinking creek = no
            Scary Creek = no

            You say, “others have found or been at the first two clues without your ancient/archaic definitions so just can’t buy into them ” Someone could have used other logic (or gotten there by accident) to get at wwwh w/o using my archaic definition – seems pretty easy to me.

            I too follow the KISS principal – looking up words is not hard – Good luck – JDA

          • Googled both – nothing came up in any of the 4 states – NM, CO, Wy or MT – Can’t be too well known – JDA

          • JDA, have you been able to find any hints in TTOTC to help you with your wwwh or the rest of your solution?

            Good luck, JDA.

          • Fundamental;

            Help from TTOTC for wwwh = No
            “The rest of my solution” = Yes.
            I have found several Hints in TTOTC that supported things that I had already figured out. I found one hint that led me to finding the answer to one clue.

            Forrest has said that there are hints in the “text” of TTOTC – I have found some help in TEXT’s but more help from two pictures and one illustration. Hope this helps. JDA

  23. JDA:
    BigSkip here…
    Thank you for sharing your thoughts on the search for “the word” and the intricacies of the possible, although archaic, definitions of many of the poem words. Many of us believe this is the genius of FF. However, doing a little nit picking, I believe the poem suggests that when one recognizes, discovers, interprets, or stumbles upon the correct BLAZE, there shouldn’t be too much walking from there in continuing the search to find the TC. To me, the poem suggests, you’re there, take a look, do you see it?
    Of course, all in my humble opinion.

    • @Big Skip et al, I agree that the TC is near the Blaze, IMO, the Blaze might very well be what the whole attraction of the special place is all about and the poem leeds us to the Blaze, once there look down and the marvel gaze is the contents of the TC, it’s over at this point. Look quickly down sounds better than any other words to use than I can think of….IMO! So what is the Blaze? Quartz on a rock in the shape of ‘F’! Just like the one on the cover of TTOTC upper left hand corner pic, takes a magnifying glass to see! Next to the dude that looks like Vincent Price….very viviid imagination!

  24. Thanks Matt, you’re right, I hadn’t seen the Hidey Space thread, and the ‘quickly’ info in the post was scant and not similar to Tennyson’s. Having the right dictionery is important since Tenny’s use of it was incomplete. Late response…. long days drive to my own Sierra Mts. Cool & beautiful they are.

  25. Look quickly down like a bird of prey, with focus and intent. Perhaps then you won’t miss a corner of the TC exposed below a group of rocks. Look with intentionality. A quick glance might not be sufficient. It probably is not buried under dirt, but it might be hidden partially among stones. Just my opinion

    Franklin

  26. Franklin:
    BigSkip here….
    Your’re very close. IMO, it’s hidden, not buried, in plane sight. At forty-two pounds, it could easily be placed on a flat surface and would most likely stay there for decades, possibly centuries. I have previously mentioned that, due to the irregular surface of the lid, the crevices and depressions would collect dust, dirt and debris over the years and support small, natural grasses. FF has suggested, right or wrong, that he knows the TC is wet. Was that the famous mistake? So, once you discover the BLAZE, simply look “down” and with a discriminating eye, recognize the TC shape. Not natural in nature.
    All of course, in my opinion

  27. I have confirmed with Dal that this is okay to post here.

    Every so often there’s talk of compiling a list or a map of failed solves. While a good idea in theory, it’s one that’s hard to put into practice given the number of clues and how many different ways they can be interpreted. But the talk did spark an idea for me – what about compiling a list of the various “where warm waters halt” interpretations? It’s an important (if not the most important) clue and, first stanza interpretations aside, it’s a clue that doesn’t rely on any previous clues.
    So I’ve created a forum where WWWH can be compiled – http://www.warmwatersfound.com – and I invite anyone with a WWWH that they’ve considered, researched, eliminated, etc. to post it on the site. The aim of the forum is to compile any potential WWWH, without regard for whether or not the clues fit afterwards or if some other issue (e.g. elevation) eliminates it. Think of it as WWWH brainstorming. And through the identified WWWH and any discussion about each one, the idea is that we can potentially identify new ideas or perhaps collectively save some time/money on BOTG trips (if discussion of a WWWH makes it unfeasible in the eyes of a searcher that would otherwise use it in their solve).

    So take a look, sign up if you want, and let’s get the list going.

    A Few Guidelines on Posting

    The scope of the forum is limited to specific WWWH and discussion related to those specific WWWH. Any general WWWH discussion, discussion related to any of the other clues (not tied to an identified WWWH), or other FF-related items should continue to be done here on Dal’s site.

    New thread titles should be for a specific WWWH and clearly identify what/where it is. For example: “Confluence of Muddy Creek and CO River near Kremmling, CO”

    For less defined and/or bigger WWWH (e.g. Continental Divide), please tie it to a more specific location (probably by using your associated HOB).

    How much or how little you want to post about your WWWH is up to you though if the reasoning isn’t obvious, you should provide some explanation.

    Discussion for a specific WWWH should be related to that WWWH and to the logical solves of the remaining clues using the specific WWWH as your “Begin it where”.

    Please utilize the Search function prior to posting to ensure your WWWH hasn’t already been posted.

    I’m happy to answer questions about the forum if there are any and suggestions as to how to improve the forum (either structurally or aesthetically) are also welcome. I’ve started a couple threads already with some of the WWWH I’ve looked into though there are not any currently in the New Mexico. Yours could be the first.

    http://www.warmwatersfound.com

    Cheers,
    FMC

    • There is a write up by Marvin Candle titled Warm Springs Part 1 and Part 2 that refers to that area. It can be found under the Other Searchers’ Adventures section. You might want to read that write up.

        • If I recall Bob, the HOB for that area is a bit of a stretch or needs work I guess is a better way of saying it. Marvin had a great idea and he walked a lot of the creek, including both natural bridges, but no indulgence. A recent thread on odds/ends got me thinking…halts is present tense…where I think warm springs used the past tense (there used to be a dam that halted the warm spring creek)…seems a problem, but the flume was a great ‘in the wood’ possibility as well as heavy loads/water high, it really got me looking at history/historical places.

      • Thanks for the reference, JBL. That was a great read by Marvin Candle and his reasonings for finding possible clue connections match what I was thinking. It was sad to read how difficult it is to get to, though.
        I don’t think Forrest has a lot of warm and fuzzy feelings for those forestry rules. I think he would have just opened that locked gate and gone straight on in there. Don’t know what Marvin is doing now or even if he is still in the chase but he sure makes me think.

    • Interesting read, thanks Bob. “maps” in black bar at top of page has lots of other WY stories BY LOCATION SITE, which may be of interest to WY searchers.

  28. ‘Waters’ is also a verb:
    Where (something warm) waters/sprinkles/sprays (something that evokes ‘halt’).

    Very late night musings… 😉

  29. Seeker posted this on August 30th in response to something The Count said:

    “Personally, I think the idea of- Finding Forrest Fenn- is a waste of time… other than his bones… [his words, not mine] Understanding the man is helpful, but I get a gut feeling the poem doesn’t really relate to Fenn when it ‘comes to the clues’… just the final outcome.”

    If I may, I’d like to piggyback on that thought. I’ll go a step further by saying that Fenn knew that he would be making/writing history with this chase and did not want to cover old ground in doing so. The difficulty for me has been to ascertain just what tangent from his life is the important one to follow. For it is my opinion that it will not be a completely obtuse course we must find., and yet, through it all, we will be blazing new ground, so to speak. Imagination is the key (but not the word that is key).

    • swwot – I agree that “Finding Forrest Fenn” tends to find FF vs TC. I think that any potential positive hints in TTOTH and TFTW are outweighed by any potential negative hints.

      Indeed, your comment “just what tangent from his life is the important one to follow” may be the secret sauce. I think ‘important’ varies with age, changing thru the lens of one’s experiences and goals. When given reflective time, old age (think end of life) tends towards collective thoughts that transcend time. I suspect most here will know what I’m saying, but the youngsters won’t (their time will come). Therefore, I just don’t see fish/ing as a major factor in the chase equation.

      • Well said Matt. One wonders if the correct ” backwards glance” over Mr. Fenn’s life is needed to get the right perspective to see the poem as it was meant to be seen. The books give hints on how to view, but it could be possible to come to the poem with that particular view and never have even known of Mr. Fenn. So what is that view, if that is what Mr. Fenn has been trying to get us to see? That’s a puzzler, for sure.

        • I’ve thought along those lines for a while as well…. why would ff say to read the poem over & over and THEN READ THE BOOK AGAIN?

          One of my versions is that WWH is a “threshold moment”. Life moves fast, jump to HOB & move through military or cancer? Blaze of course is bright — enlightenment, renewal, success. And Answers, looking back with comprehension.

          Somehow, I think Peggy is the word that is key.

        • Spotting the forest thru the trees may be the ‘big picture’ FF hint. I think that his interest in the Old West and Ancient Native Cultures is the short end of a timeline where eternity is immortality. Maybe WWWH is a man made location that represents our modern age, and that the chase takes us back prehistory to his HOB…a geologic location that represents eternity/immotality due to extreme age. In this manner, the chase may represent a journey from our selfish transient values to his selfless timeless values.

          • OS2 and Matt,

            Thinking outside the box is going to be the character/quality that separates the person that eventually picks up Indulgence in the woods, in my opinion. I do not, as of yet, have a solid idea or concept on which to hang my findings so that I can move with confidence when afield.

  30. wwwh milk river montana flows into Canada then haults and takes it in the canyon down back to montana below the blackfeet reservation (home of brown) glacier national park montana. just a thought.

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