Where Warm Waters Halt…Part Nine

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This page is now closed to additional comments. To continue the discussion please go to the latest WWWH page.

This is for a discussion about Where Warm Waters Halt. We’ve all got ideas that didn’t work out or we are willing to share…I think we can give folks just starting out some ideas for the kinds of places that might just be the place Where Warm Waters Halt…or not!

Let the discussion begin…

dal…

663 thoughts on “Where Warm Waters Halt…Part Nine

  1. I’m really excited to get into the search. Being from NY it isn’t just down the road for me… I feel my first starting place will be Warm Springs near Brown’s Canyon Colorado. It really stands out to me for the following reasons:
    1. The sheer coincidence of the names and several of the poems key words coming together.
    2. I’ve never heard of a “warm springs” before. My whole life I’ve only known of Springs, Hot Springs and Cold Springs.
    3. I’ve seen several locals note that the Brown Warm Springs run into the cold Arkansas.
    4. Fenn said several people have been near it, perhaps it’s just been overlooked? The canyon looks like a big place for something so small to hide…

    • Good place to take an imperfekt run at it, imo. If you do cross the river take a fly pole and a sandwich. No need to tell you to be careful because I know you will, have fun.

    • Nice to see another searcher come around…fresh eyes and new ideas. I cross over to the empire state occasionally for work and have fond memories of many forays into the country there. Have fun with the Chase and as a side note, Dal’s blog is an info research gold mine for all things Fenn related.

    • The first 4 line’s of the poem tell he went into his vault to get the chest, so when he left his home to go on his journey he began it where warm waters halt, his pond. So he is hinting for us to start the search from the same type of place a pond. Begin it where warm waters halt, is the start for both FF and us? a pond?

    • Just in the article Dal posted this morning under odds and ends 🙂 Interesting makes you wonder how much he spent on other types of land…

      • I posted a response to Seeker earlier about his “title” theory pointing to “the” location to begin. My response about the last line of the poem “I give you title to the gold.” is that Fenn essentially still has rights/owns the “trove”. This line is acknowledging that…and if a searcher were to actually locate/ “retrieve” the treasure he has given that “one” title to it…thus passing ownership. That is my take on it. This cuts through all the hogwash…and Fenn paid a hog washer to tell him that. jeez…

          • Well there is no title to gold or jewels anyway.
            If you think this is some way of passing ownership he would have to be referring to the property the TC sits on.

            Who knows, maybe this is the case.

            Lugnutz

          • Ya, who knows what it really means. For me, it’s the only line of the poem that is ‘outside’ the main body flow of the poem. There’s -chest, treasures, trove and gold. It appears that Gold is as being an outside item of the cake, but also is of one of the ingredients within the cake. Is it land title? I don’t know , though that is not my thinking. I think it is actually meaning the metal Gold. Just that it might possibly be of an external item(s) not within the chest. It’s just how I comprehend that line. IMO .

        • While this might have a legal meaning… I think the fact, action of the hid and challenge over rides the need for ownership. That and the usage of treasure to trove allows and says the intent of the container and contents are now of no ownership to Fenn.

          This post has opinions written all over it.

          • Of special note…never seen here over the years.
            “good title”; title to the property that is valid beyond a reasonable doubt; a holder in due course acquires “good title” to the “item”.
            While Fenn is alive, I believe he still has “rights” to the trove…up until it is found. But heck…does not matter one dang bit right now. What matters is getting to the sweet spot.

          • Ken- “But heck…does not matter one dang bit right now. What matters is getting to the sweet spot.”

            Yes, that is a point to make in good logic if one thinks that ‘ I give you title to the gold” has not much influence within it to figuring out all other clues that would lead to the ‘sweet spot’.

            For me , ‘the title to the gold’ is a nod to ‘as I have gone alone in there’ and ‘begin it where warm waters halt’. I need other clues together/combined/ handshake to help understand any of the clues. All singulars combined of the 9 are needed to formulate the answer to the equation ( chest location). So, I do think there is an influence to this end,inclusive of ‘title to the gold’.

            A ‘trust’ is a private , not public, entity . A ‘Will’ is and can be public. A ‘Trust’ is only known to the beneficiary and has many nice legal work-abilities . What does IGYTTTG have to do with AIHGAIT , AWMTB, and WWWH? It has to do with , what I think anyways, with this quote from FF:

            “What surprises me a little is that nobody to my uncertain knowledge has analyzed one important possibility related to the winning solve.”

            Just my opinion.

          • C’mon everybody.

            If “I give you title” really has a legal intent, don’t forget that the full wording makes it a conditional grant – and how on earth do you prove that “you are brave and in the wood” to satisfy the stated condition for transfer of ownership? Call Saul?

            JAKe

          • J A Kraven. The line , title to the gold , though connected to the entirety of that stanza and poem ,is of its own propriety in meaning. It’s rhyming partner is ‘ worth the cold’ in that stanza. One is about perseverance and the other is about achieving. It relates to “warm” as sibling to “cold’. IMO . They’re connected to one another. IMO .

            Brave and in the wood has its connection to a sibling in the poem also. It’s a perseverance connotation also relative to a line in the poem but different in allegory representation.

            I don’t see a required proof of anything to receive title, other than proving ones correctness by achievement. Non of the above breaks the law of contiguous either unless one thinks all these links are clues to the chest location. One may be a clue but it’s sibling may not be. These include clues, hints,the storied parts and the result ,in my opinion.

          • Jake,

            IMO a searcher doesn’t have to prove anything. That is, that you are brave and in the wood. Our job is to find brave and in the wood. Remember, he said the poem is a map.

            Forrest knows where I’m focusing my attention, assuming he recognizes the photo I sent months ago. So I believe I know the answer to that clue. In fact, if I’m right, there is at least one other place a few miles away that also fits.

            There are double omegas too I might add, directly related (IMO) to the horseshoe making “formula” mentioned on page 135 of TTOTC. That formula always perplexed me, but now I understand it’s purpose. To validate another feature in the general search area.

            But alas, like many others I’m still empty handed though I haven’t given up. I continue to look around at other places, but this area draws me back like a huge magnet. I sense I’m getting closer, almost on top of it, but the stars just haven’t lined up yet.

            Good luck to all.

            Pinatubocharlie

          • Alset…Great point! This is one that I have mentioned before. Often times in poetry, the first and last lines are crucial to the intent.

          • Alsetenash,
            I like the ‘handshake” wording when it come to explaining how clues, and any other parts of the poem, might grip it all together.
            They [ the clues and information ] agree with each other.

            LOL we have a new word that is key… errr, in my opinion.

          • J A Kraven wrote:
            C’mon everybody.

            If “I give you title” really has a legal intent, don’t forget that the full wording makes it a conditional grant – and how on earth do you prove that “you are brave and in the wood” to satisfy the stated condition for transfer of ownership? Call Saul?

            JAKe

            You prove it by finding it!

          • ManOWar (and others) –

            I agree.

            My comment appeared at an odd place in the thread-stack above, and was narrowly directed at the idea that the line “I give you title to the gold” had any actual legal utility.

            Jake

    • No one really knows for sure. Fenn is a master at saying one thing, and meaning another. So translation is left up to the reader 😛

    • IMO…No…Based on f’s comment…

      “When you read the poem, it looks like just simple words there. But I guarantee you I worked on that thing… I felt like an architect drawing that poem.”

      Also IMO…If you attempt to solve f’s poem by taking words literally as written, then you are oversimplifying the terminology he employed in constructing his poem.

      There is a lot more to figuring out what the clues mean and understanding what they say than simply finding “warm waters”, taking off “down” a “canyon”, and looking for a river or creek to “put in below” some “home of Brown” where somebody once lived. None of the above terms mean what you might think they do upon a literal reading.

      It is the reason the poem is so challenging and the chase could go on for many years before someone eventually works out the correct interpretations of the clues. Again, IMO.

      • You are correct I believe. There is no mention of warm water in TTOTC. So if you study the book really carefully and think you will discover what it is. It’s not what everyone thinks, just as ff has said.

      • I believe that as well SS. As to which words in the poem are literal and which have nothing to do with the geography mentioned it’s hard to tell without extra information.

        • In an email ff tested a person’s solve and asked, “is there a canyon on your island?”. So the canyon must be a literal geographic feature.

      • Yeah, but i read FF said that an average human being can solve it without any special knowledge of anything. Just read the poem and get a good map. Looks like he’s fooling everybody by saying that. Could also be a paradox.

        But in case you’re right, we have to get creative and philosophic?
        WWWH could reffer to a part of nature where animals (Waters, as life ‘flows’ in time) live (and eventually die = halt) in peace (Warm).

        Taking it the dirty minded road: maybe it’s the home or place where he lost his virginity and took his warm waters in her canyon down. It’s from that geographical place we start climbing or descending in search of the chest, etc.

        Maybe WWWH is the home of FF (Warm, halted when FF left that home starting his own family etc).

        Maybe it’s a gas station in or near a known hot place where you halt to cool down the radiator (bet FF drove an oldtimer 🙂 ) or yourself by drinking an ice cold beer or where you can take a leak.

        Maybe FF has his own way of interpretating words and Water to him means sand or trees or leaves or the air which contains water, or…or…

        It has to be simpler then that, hasn’t it? In case not, we’re never going to find the trove in this life. Maybe in the year 2150+.

        • David,
          Didn’t he mention something about bringing a child with you to solve the poem? Did he mean in order to share the experience with, or because a child’s innocent, naive mind would have all the solutions needed and it’s really not that difficult once found looking back at the clues/hints?

          • Hey TSLA,
            I think the clues and the meaning of the poem has to be (interpreted) simple. The dificult part is to find the geographical starting point.
            And therfore we also need a good map. What is a good map? To me it’s a sure thing FF has some old maps to his disposal, maps with old names for mountains, areas, creeks, summits, put-ins, trails, etc.

            So in short: warm waters are warm waters, at least it’s water.
            Too far to walk can be 4 miles, 10 miles but also 100 miles.
            The whole search area is titanic and everything is relative and subjective.

          • Too far to walk could also mean don’t. Red herring, too far=do not do it, do not go, stay where you are and follow the clues from there.

          • Tommy: Canyon down could be a description of the canyon. A downland is an area of open chalk hills. Also called downs or down. The warm waters are taken in by a canyon fitting that description and take the warm waters away a distance that is too far to walk. I am also able to use the word from in the poem to back up this possibility. From-indicating the point in space at which a journey, motion, or action starts. So I can start where warm waters halt and everything else in that stanza will help confirm I am at the correct WW and from my warm waters is when I start my journey.

            One possible scenario, a lake, pond that melted water flows down a mountaintop and settles in for at least a while before draining into a chalky canyon which has a tributary that flows for 15 miles and ends when that tributary is put in a river at a location below the HOB. Find a place that matches and you have your starting point, from starting point it is no place for the meek…

            Right or wrong I will not know until someone who is actually searching finds it.

      • Samsmith, Iron Will, Seeker, and all the others who think that trickery, deception and deviousness is the answer to the poem.

        “The poem is written in plain English words that mean EXACTLY what they say.” f

        “The poem is straightforward.” f No subterfuge.

        IMO, don’t overthink the words. Stay in the box, but look in all of the corners.

        • Umm, when have you ever read me use the word “trickery, deception and deviousness ” involving fenn’s intention with the poem [ or anything else ] ?

          The other two gents can speak for themselves. However, I do agree with your comment that there is no “tomfoolery” with the poem… I’m pretty sure it straightforward in all honesty.

          Now, if you want to talk about the cleverness of how I think some of the poem might work… we can do that.

          May be I need to start signing at the bottoms of my postings too.

          Seeker. The one and the only…

  2. Happy to share an unlikely thought: One of my more extreme (and furthest north) interpretations put it near Great Falls Montana, the point at which steam ships could go no further. Too much research and reading on my part, perhaps?
    “Just show it to a kid.” Need to remember that. : )

  3. In section WWWH 8 Stephan said;

    Divergent question: Where is Forrest? I’ve never seen him absent from the discourse for this long. No postings on Mysterious Writings either. Has he decided to stop interacting with the community? The Chase will languish without his presence, IMO.

    Well that reminds me of a time a little while back when ff seemed removed from the chase for a while, Dal even announced that Forrest would not be too active in the discussions, but something happened to SPARK a Forrest Fire in him in March or April 2017, when he suddenly posted many scrapbooks and showed up for Fennboree and other appearances and interviews.

    What caused that reaction in him? What my belief is that ff has been dropping hints about the Chase and what peaks his interest perhaps what he gets a kick out of is showing up in quiet comment filtering what is said, perhaps by others who have discovered or posted things, what do you think?…

    Now I know some say that ff does not reveal any particular knowledge or hint as to indulgences’ whereabouts or if someone is getting close, well I hold that Forrest is human and we humans tend to show interest where it is warranted, if you believe like I do that ff has dropped hints, sometimes in Freudian slips or even intentionally, just because it gives him a thrill or a level of adrenal excitement….After all why did he do this?

    The answere-s I already know, I’ve done tired….at 87 he still likes the Thrill of the Chase and teasing us may be part of the ANSWER.

    TT

    • TT,
      You can believe what you would like to believe. Personally, I don’t think fenn is dropping hint as much as giving us a thought process to ponder. I mean, just look at the useless clue debate of 2013 as an example.
      Or; {in part}
      “…I am determined to stay aloof of providing any additional clues that are useful. Everyone has the same information to work with… I said in my book that
      the solution will be difficult but not impossible. If it was easy anyone could do it. Whoever finds the treasure will mostly earn it with their imagination. I have done only a few things in my life that were truly planned. Hiding the treasure chest is one of them. And at the end, the one
      who finds the gold will not feel lucky, but instead, will ask himself, ”what took me so long?”

      I’m not saying that things fenn has stated are not helpful… I mean we know wwwh is the first clue and we know there are many, we know or seem to know that there might be more to “nailing down” that clue then just finding its location [ apparently that has been done and continues to be done, yet from fenn’s point of view, searchers didn’t know.

      I think, to hope fenn is handing out hints because something “sparked a Forrest Fire in him” is great for the obsessed to think in their little weird worlds … Oh! I told fenn this and he said that, my deity is personally helping me and at the same time playing fair with all… but only I know the truth. [lol and over the years some searchers have stated almost those words].

      Seriously… one question present to fenn was;
      “Is it an advantage to buy The Thrill of the Chase and Too Far to Walk?
      There are hints in my TTOTC book that can help solve the clues in the poem.”
      Ya really have to ask yourself why didn’t fenn mention the second book when directly asked? And why, because of the second book many have jumped the bandwagon that a vehicle is now a must to have to travel clues.
      Or this Q&A;
      – “You have said some things in scrapbook entries that seem too bizarre to be true, like the fact that you keep your jeans on when you shower.  Are you at times just pulling people’s legs?
      FF: Yes, I didn’t think that comment would fool many people. I was trying to make a point.”
      Yet many were fooled (foolish?)

      Or this Q&A { that kills me laughing each time I read a post about it by others }…
      – “People have become fixated on you telling them to bring a sandwich and a flashlight.  Are they just wasting their time focusing on these things as clues? 
      FF: They certainly are not clues.”

      Ha! but all one has to do is read a day or two back in the blogs and see just how many searcher use the flashlight and snack comment as part of their perfect little solve.
      I have to agree with Sam’s post above ~ Sam wrote ~’Also IMO…If you attempt to solve f’s poem by taking words literally as written, then you are oversimplifying the terminology he employed in constructing his poem.’

      I think the same goes for the ATF statements… searcher oversimplify what fenn might actually be relaying, IF he is relaying anything informative at all.

      Disclaimer, footnote, politically correct response, no need for the blog police… just BSing on a blog site and holding back on the fluffinutter…~ The above comment is my personal opinion.

      • Seeker, I like the way you analyze the clues, but I am not talking just about clues, my emphasis is on HINTS, no one would put up better than a million in treasure and not get some Thrill out of watching, listening and learning what people who are searching will do to find it, my point is ff is HUMAN and likes the attention, when I revealed in my “Winter Thoughts” (I) solve that Forrest Fenn had said “My father would know where I hid the Treasure” everyone before that thought I was making stuff up, but apparently, I was correct, not only did ff reveal where, IMO he took his 80 year old fathe to his special place.. Now I almost got thrown off the blogs for sayin it, but sometimes you just gota go against the grain…Seeker you are very analytical and even methodical, so are the multitude of posters here and I will not name names but after all is said and done we are dealt 5 cards, 4 and a joker in the Chase, it all BOILS down to the correct hunch..

        Answer this; why did ff use WW1 as the (incorrect) subject war in “For Whom The Bell Tolls”? What was the weather and why the Border Line Biddies?

        TT

        • TT,
          I have a hard to intelligently giving good arguments, for or against, what a hint is in the book [TTOTC]… I know the stories but attempting to find hints confuses me more that attempting to understand the poem and see if the book may indicate my thoughts as holding water. I mean, some fight to the death that picture and illustrations are clues… yet we have fenn saying; hints in the “text…” so what do I know…

          But ya made me chuckle at what you said; ~ ‘… we are dealt 5 cards, 4 and a joker in the Chase, it all BOILS down to the correct hunch.’ Especially when fenn has be admit in saying “The person that finds it,” Fenn said, “is going to be a person who thinks and plans and has an analytical mind and uses logic, not someone who has a hunch.” 

          I’m not trying to be semantic or hardheaded or a dang knowitall… weeding through our thoughts about the poem is difficult enough, add ATF information over the years and I can see why some are only working on a poke and hope and hunches. And like you said… ff is only human… I agree he enjoys the interaction with others that the challenge brings him, But I also see 20 plus years of dedication, planning and execution of the challenge that, tells me, He’s not going to waste all that effort and finances just to hint in 170 plus SB’s and hundreds of Q&A’s or interviews etc. etc. to help solve his hard work.

          Just look at some of the reasons we seen actual hard information be given… Fair play that wwwh is not a dam because of conversations that others didn’t know about.
          Not under water forces to be told because of, well Idiots, who attempt raging rivers or waters in winter.

          I get what your saying, but logically, I don’t understand why fenn would volunteer more ‘hints’ ‘clues’ that would be of help to solve the clues or locate the chest…
          An example of jumping the gun with fenn’s ATF would be, when the school kids asked the same question that has been asked for almost seven years… when was the chest was hidden… summer. Is it a hint or a clue? or just another piece of information to tell searchers, winter searching is not the brightest idea to plan, which we have been told many times.

          And thanks for noticing that I do attempt to analyze the crap out of this challenge… but to be honest… all I have is a big pile of, um err, Fluffinutter at the moment. I’ll leave the repeated postings of hopeful facts and I knows, for all the knowitalls.

          But while we’re on the WWWH topic thread… for you and anyone… why is “AND” used in that stanza?
          Doesn’t And, in this manor of usage, mean; `and` warm waters [halt] take it in the canyon down?
          Not unlike; the ants circle and take it in the trunk of the tree down.

          • Seeker: When was the chest hidden…summer, follow up question mr Fenn, summer here in the Rockies or summer in Australia (Dec-Feb)?

          • Chris – would it have been natural for Forrest to answer the question – posed by school kids in the USA – that it was in the summer in Australia? I think not. JDA

          • Seeker, I think your right about that ‘and’, and all the other ‘and’s’. There are huge gullies of unsaid data squeezed between the ands and the phrases on either side of them. I think some walk on the words as though lthey were stepping stones across a lawn instead of step-able rocks & logs across a raging creek.

          • Chris,
            Why believe anything the man says if you think his answers was related to any other place then where he hid the chest? The thought that it’s 5 o’clock some where works well for the lushes… But the man was answering question from school kids.

            Everyone knows that millionaires don’t lie to kids… just congress, fake news, leaders of other countries…

      • Nicely put Seeker and Sam…I’ll also add that I believe it may be “wise” to exercise caution when asking Fenn anything Chase related. Many of his ATF’s seem to be in response to the many unclear/open-ended Q’s folks toss out there.
        This morning I spent some more time re-reading the “Forest Gets Mail” submitted with the school kids Q’s and his answers. Some seem to be clear cut…but most could be taken either way one looks at them. Just more of the same…

        • Ken,
          Yep, and fenn said he would answer the question as presented… I would assume he does the same for all Q&A’s. Only he may have felt the need to explain to ‘kids’ what adults should already understand.

          But as TT was saying [paraphrasing] fenn enjoys having some fun with searchers… and his wording does make one think… WTH was that about… a clue? a hint? an example of thought? a joke?

          But, its Q&A’s like Becky’s is what gets my wandering mind out of first gear… put the effort in reading, and forwarding and have posted a Q&A, and decline answer it.

      • I had actually thought about a meal and a flashlight before reading ff’s comment. stating as such. If you think about it. Forrest may have waited until dark to hide the treasure when nobody was around to see him do it. Same holds true when I find the treasure I’ll wait until dark to retrieve it. There are a lot of crazies that would kill for what’s in that box. Or at the least try to hold you up for it. Possession being 9/10th of the law. You can’t definitively prove that you found it, before retrieving it, without broadcasting it to the world. Just my opinion as always.

        • Remember, FF said that he made two trips from his car in one afternoon, which leads me to believe that he hid the chest during daylight hours, but was parked in a remote place without a lot of human traffic. If the prize in concealed in your backpack, I don’t think that the Crazies would be a threat to you. They would just assume it was filled with binoculars and a raincoat. Having said that, a flashlight and a little extra food and water are never a bad idea when embarking on an unfamiliar trail.

          • Hoblin You’re correct about when FF hid TC. But, at that time 1.No one knew it existed,(except a few close friends) Now millions know. 2. No one knew where he had gone or what he was doing. 3..He was an old man, probably carrying a fly rod for cover. Who would pay any attention.to him? and most importantly, 4. He was carrying stuff in and not out. With thousands of searchers out there, chances are good that others would have the same location idea as you do. You may have more figured out. Don’t be naive .to the fact that predictors do exist Some natural, some temporary. Lets say you’ve been researching this thing for 7 years. Your constantly on line looking for clues.You even dream about it. Your obsessed with finding it no matter what it took. After 20 or so road trips leaving your family in critical debt, you finally have it figured out. And with everything you could scare up you went to your last solve. You hike to the spot you think the blaze is and watch someone pull the chest out of a bush or something. Many would snap.. I’m sticking with my crazies theory. Better safe than sorry. IMO Scotty

  4. * Let’s coin a new phrase. You can’t have a “correct solve” unless you can knowingly go to within several steps of the treasure chest. Otherwise you have a “general solve.” What do you think? f (posted June 2nd, 2017)

    Is someone getting close, but not cigar? SO to mperfekt and all who hear:

    Something IMO will allow a searcher to draw and X or + at the exact spot, so why this post, why now?

    http://mysteriouswritings.com/forrest-fenn-treasure-facts/

    TT, terrifically enthusiastic about savin the Rockies!

    • lmao I would say you got squat until you got the box. How can you claim to have solved anything without it? It’s all speculative theory’s until the box is in hand Also the odds of anyone being around to see you get it are probably just as slim as you actually solving the riddle. I’ve been reading and watching all this dribble for years now and I ahhh never mind good luck geniuses.

  5. Where WWH?

    Travertine is a type of limestone that is most often formed at warm or hot mineral springs. As the warm, mineral-saturated water reaches the earth’s surface, the dissolved mineral matter precipitates in to thin layers of calcium carbonate (CaCO3 ). Over time the minerals build up into deposits of travertine. Because of the unique manner of which it is formed, travertine can be harvested and renewed.

    https://www.geocaching.com/geocache/GC4R8PB_thermopolis-travertine?guid=fdea11c6-1c21-4790-a136-0fa164fa5eec

  6. I maintain my opinion that WWWH is Ojo Caliente Spring in Yellowstone National Park beside the Firehole River.
    It is also my opinion that other clues and the hints given in books and scrapbooks can be identified along the Grande Loop Road in Yellowstone.
    For example, the scrapbook about FF finding a Mammoth tusk was a hint about Mammoth Hot Springs in northwest Yellowstone. The scrapbook about the porcelaine bird that he called Minerva was a hint about the Minerva terraces at Mammoth Hot Springs (which are made of travertine). Indulgence was once said to be a sepulcher. Above Mammoth Hot Springs is Sepulcher Mountain. ….
    You get the idea. When I read FF’s stories I can usually pinpoint a place or name in Yellowstone National Park. It is a place that is dear to him, and a place where you may take a child and an 80 year old man on a search.
    But enough about me and my OPINIONS. I have done my armchair searches and posted GPS coordinates and images. If WWWH isn’t in Yellowstone my opinions are bogus.

    • Hello Michael. I had returned from Yellowstone and noticed some new things which were mentioned/hinted in scrapbooks, etc. that I hadn’t noticed beforehand from previous visits. These places are certainly on my mind and trying to understand placements to the poem if they truly mean anything.

    • I’ve generally stayed away from even looking at Yellowstone as it seems like with as much focus is on it, it would have been found by now if it was there.

      I still mostly believe that, but I will say that I find your interpretation/link from TTOTC to a location the most compelling I’ve seen (assuming it all checks out which I have no reason to doubt – like I said, I haven’t looked at Yellowstone).

      There are a lot of tenuous, at best, interpretations of TTOTC chapters out there – it’s refreshing to see one that makes more sense.

      Cheers.

  7. TX Ken – thanks for your reply

    yes, i also believe that the trail from #1 to #9 may cover a large distance (“bigger picture/higher things/too far to walk” etc) and your said idea has explained the missing factor in setting a suitable geo-scaling proportion, imho
    ..and i agree that a small search area may unfairly invite searchers to stumble across the TC without solving all the clues. which doesn’t seem like sound architecture to me either

    also, given that Forrest always knew where the hide-spot was destined to be, he had free reign to back-engineer a puzzle as large (or small perhaps) as he wished, without parameters or restrictions, just pure imagination and lotsa (local?) geo-knowledge

    ..but large enough at least, to make Edward Teach proud 🙂

    • Message received.

      Sorry I missed your first 2 inquiries. The structure of this message board, with threads constantly being “closed”, renders continuity of discussion almost impossible. I didn’t see your original 2 inquiries or I would have responded, then. It would also be helpful if posters would not post off-topic comments, as these comments further interfere with continuity of discussion. But I know that off-topic comments will continue to be made anyway.

      In summary, there are multiple reasons why I do not accept a “natural features only” interpretation of the clues. And an understanding of “geographic scale” can help free searchers from such a straitjacket assumption of “natural features” only, provided that said searchers have an open mind.

      Ken (in Texas) 🙂

  8. Zaps (re: a physical map is a reasonable interpretation)

    are you quietly implying that Forrest answered an obviously open-ended question with a specific (and entirely non-elusive) answer?

    hmmm.. sounds like it
    🙂

    • Hi Inquisitive Middle-Earther: Yes, I’m suggesting that Forrest chose to interpret “…but only has your poem and a map of the US Rocky Mountains” to mean a single, physical map. Perhaps if Jenny had instead said Little Indy had “a collection of maps of the U.S. Rocky Mountains,” Forrest might have answered differently. When you say someone “has a map,” isn’t your first impression a paper map rather than a digital map that they’re staring at on their computer?

      • Zaphod73941: I seem to remember ff saying the location wasn’t listed on any map. I could be wrong. Oddly enough I found such place by pure dumb luck. I won’t go into details. But I was a passenger and we drove by a sign that as ff mentioned “rang a bell”. Then it wasn’t hard to understand the first 2 clues. It all just made perfect sense. I believe from reading the blogs that a group is in that location right now. And if I’m right, Franklin and I are both headed there this weekend. (Not together) The sign was a small, weathered, 1x2x1′ board staked to the ground abt 2ft high around tall grass. Not on any map I could find and goodle earth hadn’t posted a pic of the area since 2006. Sometimes exploration and just plain ole dumb luck trumps modern technology lol

      • Scotty: which location do you mean, WWWH? To my knowledge, Forrest has never said WWWH wasn’t on a map, and I don’t see him ever saying such because I think it’s plain as day on a map. But best of luck to you and Franklin on your imminent searches and don’t do anything Forrest wouldn’t do. 🙂

    • Hi Fictional Douglas Adams Character

      perhaps if Jenny had asked him where the TC is located, he might have been specific too ..but i doubt it 🙂

      all i’m saying is, if Sherlock Jens had asked me that same question, i woulda jumped at the chance to answer in an honest (yet highly elusive) manner – wouldn’t you?

      i mean, it gives searchers the perfect agar to create their own red-herrings after all – and a quiet chuckle for Forrest, to boot 🙂

  9. hey Seeker, any idea why TPTB felt another wall map was…needed ??? (referring to last years…addition). Your recent exchange with TT seems flawed, I didn’t read TT suggesting hunch vs logic, but hunch and logic. In past, I twice used logic to reverse engineer stuff BUT started logic pursuit behind hunch/es. My 1st “trick” was cracking the numerical chip code on computer simm chips, whereby I eventually deciphered embedded code for size, refresh, edo/fpm, etc. vs common maker, DOM, access. This allowed me to swoop on electronic salvage yards and computer meets while knowing exactly what I was buying, AND make major moola…nearly 20 years ago, probably before most here had a home computer. Yes, logic saved the day BUT playing hunches drastically reduced variable path count. No, I’m not a computer nerd (I’m a “mech nut”) but nearly 50 yrs ago, I was taken by cryto while reading Civil War stuff and stumbled upon Anderson code history (and impact on US Army intel). My 2nd “trick” with reverse engineering was solving classical mechanical limitations of Stirling Engines via reducing thermodynamics to graphics…whereby (follow this closely) my graphic solutions were akin taking simple base 10 math problems, transposing to other bases, performing calcs, then transposing back, whereupon my answers were different than original base 10 (crude example only).

    Meanwhile, FF chase is…child’s play IMO where players are bitten by gold fever, many wasting what little money AND time they have left. As “Harry” said: “A man’s got to know his limitations.”

    • PS – I think Chase poem can be reverse engineered due to FF comments, and prefer a “moving target” with add’l data points. However, I chuckle at all the cypto stuff that some suggest when all I see only Old World metaphors that require old world solutions.

      Reviewing archives here, I enjoyed searcher comments regarding “The Perfect Question” to ask FF, but this was back in May 2015 when many were…clueless…WWWH was clue 1, despite this cat was already out of the bag. Fast forward to today, where most know clue 1, and that there’s 3-4 clues in stanza 2, and that HOB is a clue, my question would be: what #clue is HOB? If this could be chiseled in stone, we might be able to get somewhere…

      Goofy – “So you like fishing and hunting without getting any game? This is a hunt not a hike.” Your comment in Perfect Question thread caught my eye, and begs the question, is it not: the thrill of the chase ???

  10. Mr. Fenn said read his book (the thrill of the chase) then read his poem many times then read his book again. He names many waters in his book but there’s one water he doesn’t name. ” In love with Yellowstone “.

  11. I would like to give my BOTG experience the week of Aug 14, but will wait for inquiries. I feel I know the location based on a few things. Firstly, the first 4 lines of the poem state the TC is in New Mexico. Secondly, why would ff only make 1000 copies of his book and have it in a Santa Fe book store? My WWWH is definitely the river Ojo Caliente (hot eye river). Going north from where it ends near Espanola, you will go along the Black Mesa on highway 285 (the number has no meaning). Now Google Earth “Vallito Peak, NM”. Looks like a bear head to me (HOB). Remember, ff flew that route many times going to Montana. I will continue with more of my solve if you all are interested because I will not be going back due to health issues and almost getting heat stroke on my journey.

    • Rob, The book “Thrill of the chase” is in it’s 5th or 6th printing. The 5th being 3,500 copies. It has always been available on Amazon.com. If that’s why you think N.M think again. If you’ve read the book, the only time he mentions that state is when he talks about living there. The second clue “home of Brown”. Obviously not the home of someone named Brown as not everyone seeking the chest would know all the Brown families in the Rockies. But it is capitalized. Meaning Person Place or thing. I don’t believe anyone could find all the homes of all the bear in the Rockies. I think you hit on it when you said ff flew many times to Montana. He has a sister in Bozeman and used to fish in Yellowstone. The Treasure could very well be between the 2. Won’t know until someone finds it. And you could very well be right. The place I (and it appears several others) are heading to this weekend, fits all of the clues perfectly. As if I hadn’t said that before lol

      • So tirue Scotty. No one knows for sure until it is found. However, in my solve, if you take the shape of Black Mesa which buttresses Vallito Peak, it looks extremely like Long Island Sound where Gardiners Island is near. Coincidence?

    • I can see the bear head also, south side of the peak.My opinion is there is almost no chance something that obscure being HOB or part of any other clue.

  12. Hi good luck. I’m also from NY, been hard to put boots to ground from here. Firehole river is where my solve has warm waters halting.

  13. My warm waters halt has nothing to do with water. But I’m usually wrong. I should probably solve the poem, and then do the exact opposite. I don’t think WWWH is a hotspring, which probably means WWWH is a hotspring. I hope everyone is well this Labor Day weekend. The leaves are turning gold and the geese are honking their way south in Alaska.

  14. Well tomorrow I will know if my WWWH is correct. It’s my first year searching for the treasure even though I have known about it for a few years. I have been out 4 times with the 5th time being tomorrow. The search area shrinking everytime. As of last trip I have a solution for every line of the poem. I know exactly where I am going and it will either be there or I will have to start from the beginning again. As I have read many times I expect my “solve” to come up empty but can’t help feeling the Thrill. So much so that I may not sleep much tonight. You can be sure that if I am that 1 out of 50,000 that I will post pictures and such.

    • I hope you post pictures and a report regardless. I thoroughly enjoy reading about and seeing the pictures of various folks’ adventures. I have no idea where TC is, but I have developed a fine list of places to visit and hikes to take with my dogs based on many wonderful posts on Dal’s site.

    • I wish you the very best! Isn’t searching fun? Good for the soul even if Indulgence remains aloof – as she has for seven years. JDA

  15. Copper: The only water that is warm all year around, in the Rockies, come out of the ground or hot water heater. ff also mentions “put in” as if putting in a boat or something, “waters high”, and “braved the cold”. All are consistent with water all year round in the Rockies. What are your thoughts if not water?

    • Hi Scotty. WWWH is not an actual water location for me, it’s a date in history. Put in below HOB is at a water collection area, and worth the cold refers to learning the truth about the past, a truth that is ugly. The cold hard truth. My solve is weird I suppose.

      • Copper: I don’t think any solve is weird as long as it doesn’t involve jumping into a raging river. FF is a history buff. It wouldn’t be too far fetched for him to add a little history along with getting people out into nature. My solve was reached a bit by history also. I will give you credit for thinking outside the box. I’m sure that’s what it will take to win this race. Scotty

        • That’s great! If you want to compare notes you can PM me on chasechat. I’m sure Dal is tired of having to forward my emails!:). Thanks for the positive feedback and best of luck.

  16. Warm waters or melted waters often HALT in a retention area…just another thought south of my better ones…who knows? Might even be some wood there? Many challenging destination spots at my location…but which ones get my energy and effort and which ones very special? Bewildered.

  17. Cold is the absence of heat. … So, anytime water is not ice it has been warmed..hence any water not ice is warm by relation to it having been ice or snow before. There, I said it. Let the chips fall where they may.

  18. Is there anyone else who thinks that WWWH refers to fishing? Fishing regulations are split into two categories. Warm and cold water species.

  19. Pretty much everyone searching in NM, lol. I think searchers should be more than familiar with fishing terms, fishing regulations, etc no matter what state they are searching. I’ve said it before…when I am in the wilds and not in close proximity to a human trail, I’m either fishing or climbing a mountain. There is a very good chance FF found his special spot when he was fishing…maybe even when trying to retrieve his fly after it got tangled up in the backcast. It’s amazing what you find when you look behind yourself.

    • So do you believe this is what ff refers to for how to find the start point? I have not read of others being directed by this hint. Are you familiar with fishing in NM?

      • It could be a way to verify or clarify a start point. Plenty of searchers think so. I keep the regs in my back pocket, so to speak. Very familiar with NM and CO fishing. Mostly because I like to fish though.

          • When flyfishing, I generally am going upstream, against the current. There are lots of variables with current, depth of water, etc. Big fish often hang out in swift current. Don’t always fish the calm pools if you want to catch a linker. If you get my gist, lol.

    • I couldn’t agree more sandy. People forget how much love he had for fishing. He mentions it numerous times in TTOTH. I would really love to know where his favorite fishing spot is. I’ve never seen so many fish shoulder to shoulder like that picture in the book.

    • Hi Sandy: I assume you are aware of mdavis19’s question to Forrest from 6/27/2014:

      “Is any specialized knowledge required to find the treasure? For instance, something learned during your time in the military, or from a lifetime of fly fishing? Or do you really expect any ordinary average person without your background to be able to correctly interpret the clues in the poem? ~ mdavis19”

      Forrest replied: “No specialized knowledge is required mdavis19, and I have no expectations. My Thrill of the Chase book is enough to lead an average person to the treasure. f”

      In light of this Q&A, I would question a solution that depended on fly fishing knowledge (though I very much enjoy the sport).

      • Well Zap, you could be right about specialized knowledge. But by that standard wouldn’t reading a map, using GPS or a map and compass to navigate, using Google Earth or just plain Google to research your solve all be considered specialized knowledge if you didn’t know how to do those things prior? I think we’ve all taught ourselves a lot in this search, out of curiosity and a desire to learn more about topics that hadn’t crossed our field of attention before. Reading fishing regulations isn’t exactly advanced physics, and in my book isn’t that much different than googling exact definitions of words. I’m not suggesting people become experts in flyfishing. I’m suggesting they become curious learners about a subject Mr Fenn is very interested in.

      • I was unaware of this response by FF. I’ve been putting faith in the ‘all you need is the poem and a good map’ and the ‘read the book, read the poem many times, re-read the book slowly’ (or similar) comments that he has made.

        Seeing this one, I now feel so very…..sub-average.

  20. IMO We’re talking about when warm water stops being warm. What is the definition of cold, and to whom? There are several things I believe FF thought about when assembling his clues. First, that it would cover all 4 seasons. many some more than others. Second would be that they wouldn’t be understood by only a handful of people. Examples would be the hoB not being a family named Brown, knowledge of exactly where the brown trout hang out, or a particular Brown mountain. These would be too vague. WWWH is vague as there are at least 50 hot springs between Santa Fe and the Canadian border. But how many have a canyon going down? Each clue narrows the field. The first 2 clues can be narrowed by a geography map and google earth as FF stated. Acceptable to all. The rest you’d need to be there to determine. As always, it’s just my opinion

  21. So when entering a river, you would wade and fish toward a headwater trying not to spook them on your way? Was looking for the answer to the question of; parking at the headwater and then hike downstream to begin fishing or vice versa.

    • ChickenOne…I wade upstream. The fly lands more naturally when casting upriver. Generally speaking. One scenario I entertain-Forrest and his father had a fantastic day fishing together. While looking for a spot close to the river to eat lunch, maybe a pimento sandwich, Forrest happened upon the perfect place to rest in eternity. He kept that in his back pocket for years. It wasnt a river that sees hordes of fishermen…it his smaller, special to him for reasons beyond fishing. Most people find being close to water very soothing. Almost umbilical. That’s one idea, anyway.

      • I totally agree with you Sandy. Knowing rivers could help a lot when solving this riddle. An avid fly fisherman such as Forest , knows how to read and negotiate a river safely. He would also have found special secluded places. I’m no fly fisherman as I haven’t figured out how to do it with one hand.(the other hand has a beer in it). But I do a lot of prospecting in rivers with either waders or scuba gear on. I once found the closest thing to a garden of Eden. You couldn’t get within 2 miles of it by land. He might have stumbled onto such a place as he was working a river or creek. FF says “there will be no paddle up your creek”. FF didn’t need a paddle, he had waders. If you didn’t “put in below thB and go where it’s “no place for the meek” and traverse the “heavy loads and water high” and have to “brave the cold” then you were not wise, did not find the blaze and end will never draw nigh. Just a thought–Scotty

  22. To me, JDA’s well thought out solution that did not lead to the treasure is another example that there are many places in the Rocky Mountains where the poem clues appear to fit, yet the solution is wrong. I seriously doubt that JDA walked by the treasure after putting so much effort into his specific solution. I have to assume that his solution was “correct” for the starting point that he chose. I still keep asking myself, how can I know that the starting point I have chosen is the correct one? So far, I don’t have the answer.

    • Tom,
      I have struggled with trying to answer the same question as well, “how do we know that our staring point is correct?”. As you stated, we can all fit the clue descriptions to numerous, possibly 100’s or more, areas across all States covered by the search area. I feel as if I’m either missing or overlooking something. Still not sure what yet!

    • TheSleepyHollowBard,

      It is very frustrating. Like JDA, I have a “complete” solve that seems to fit all of the poem clues. But, I do not have complete confidence that it will lead me to the treasure because I don’t know that my starting point is correct. I’m still looking for that “something” that will assure me that my starting point is correct. I am convinced that the “key” that Forrest talks about is the missing piece to give me that assurance.

      • Tom B

        You are correct Tom. “The Wood” will tell you where the starting point is. The “Word that is Key” will convince you absolutely that you are in the right area, and when you figure out the Double Omega, nothing in the world will convince you that you are not in the correct area. Just my opinion, and I have had 15 failures JDA

        • JDA

          I only found the “subtle hint” of double omegas this past week. Now I am even more excited about my solve area, but I know I might not find the TC. Thank you for directing me to that hint. I am hoping to find the TC, but I expect not to. Every time I go on the ground I learn more. I have Omegas in my dreams – LOL

          • Isn’t it funny how this adventure becomes part of you? I too had a dream a few nights ago that I found the chest. But I couldn’t open it, I was too terrified. Had me grumpy all the next day.

      • You will have no doubt about wwwh if you are correct. From there though you will be splitting hairs. Since the topic here is in the wood, that connection would be somewhat of a stretch. IMO! I’m still on my first, last and only search for whatever that’s worth.

    • Tom B

      I still feel that my starting place is correct. My problem was that because of Conformation Bias, I allowed myself to think that Google Earth’s elevation numbers were wrong – they were not wrong – I was wrong. 1/2 mild farther up the trail, the numbers match what I feel they must be. Where did I get my elevation numbers? Let’s wait and see if I am correct next time.

      I will give it one-last-try, and then admit I am wrong if the next trip does not produce Indulgence. JDA

      • JDA. If “the wood” is key to identifying where warm waters halt, then I probably have the wrong starting location because I can’t see how “the wood” relates to my starting location (it does, however, relate to my suspected treasure location).

        If your next trip is a last/try, I hope you are only talking about your current solve. Even if that one doesn’t work out, you are still as much in the chase as the rest.

        • Tom B

          There is a very obscure definition for “the wood” that points the way. I know of no one who has been able to dig up this definition other than myself – so don’t fret over it – JDA

          • Possible the obscure definition has been found by others, but discarded at too much of a stretch to be reasonable so never mentioned. Being obscure and a stretch does not mean it is wrong though.

            One thing that replaces the material in trees to make petrified wood is opal. So I can connect in the wood, and WWWH with opal pool as my starting point, but don’t mention because it seems too forced to be correct.

            Or like you they see a good connection but have not shared because they want to search and be sure first.

        • Sorry Tom – I am stuck on my location in Wyoming. I could review it, but my biases in Wyoming would get in the way. email me at SculptorJDA at aol dot com IF you want me to provide input – JDA

          • I have a really great Wyoming solve that is extremely costly to get to. I’d share with you JDA…but I have this fear that someone will claim it for themselves then head for Bermuda!

          • Sorry Copper – I am 75, have a heart problem, and rely on my team to search for me. I am not a good candidate to search for you. JDA

      • Sorry JBL – NO solution yet. I will not publish a solution until I feel that I have exhausted ALL possibilities for my area. My team has said that they are willing to look “At least one more time”. What a team!!! JDA

        • Thx JDA, I thought I had read a post about your well thought out solution. You have to make sure you are done before you divulge your solution. Sounds like you have a great team, and I hope you can go next time too! Good luck!

      • @JBL You haven’t missed it, we’re all waiting!

        Come on JDA, kick down your ancient and obscure definitions for Wood and Quickly!

        • Okay – How about one of the two.

          Quickly = Intelligent and/or pungent aroma (an archaic definition) and Down = downstream. Therefore, “Look quickly down” means that I must: Intelligently examine the pine grove (aeromatic pine needles) that is downstream from the blaze. Hope this helps someone – JDA

          • Quick(ly) also means intelligent(ly) – that is why I say,” I must Intelligently examine…” (She has a quick mind – she is intelligent)
            JDA

          • Wiki Tennyson’s Memoriam, then search for the word ‘quickly.’ In the article it has one meaning, but there is another meaning in the poem which I discovered in an old dictionary, and thats what led me to the Wiki article.

          • Oops, I said that wrong… search ‘quick’ in Tenneyson’s poem, not the wiki article. 133 cantos… before TV era!! am now thinking maybe more clues are rooted in classical poetry.

          • OS2 – appears you missed similar hint from tighterfocus on Sept 4…

            “Matt, that’s very observant of you . . . about the word “quickly”. I think it’s an important word, and I suggest we all look it up in a dictionary.”

            No hocus-pocus IMO

          • @JDA, thanks! Not sure…..perhaps if ‘stinking creek’ is the site! My guess is your ‘wood’ is something to do with scary creek? What gets me is others have found or been at the first two clues without your ancient/archaic definitions so just can’t buy into them but still try and keep an open mind and keep it simple. Thanks for keeping the blog lively too! Best

          • Cholly;

            Stinking creek = no
            Scary Creek = no

            You say, “others have found or been at the first two clues without your ancient/archaic definitions so just can’t buy into them ” Someone could have used other logic (or gotten there by accident) to get at wwwh w/o using my archaic definition – seems pretty easy to me.

            I too follow the KISS principal – looking up words is not hard – Good luck – JDA

          • Googled both – nothing came up in any of the 4 states – NM, CO, Wy or MT – Can’t be too well known – JDA

          • JDA, have you been able to find any hints in TTOTC to help you with your wwwh or the rest of your solution?

            Good luck, JDA.

          • Fundamental;

            Help from TTOTC for wwwh = No
            “The rest of my solution” = Yes.
            I have found several Hints in TTOTC that supported things that I had already figured out. I found one hint that led me to finding the answer to one clue.

            Forrest has said that there are hints in the “text” of TTOTC – I have found some help in TEXT’s but more help from two pictures and one illustration. Hope this helps. JDA

  23. JDA:
    BigSkip here…
    Thank you for sharing your thoughts on the search for “the word” and the intricacies of the possible, although archaic, definitions of many of the poem words. Many of us believe this is the genius of FF. However, doing a little nit picking, I believe the poem suggests that when one recognizes, discovers, interprets, or stumbles upon the correct BLAZE, there shouldn’t be too much walking from there in continuing the search to find the TC. To me, the poem suggests, you’re there, take a look, do you see it?
    Of course, all in my humble opinion.

    • For me, Big Skip – after you find the blaze, you still have a bit of work to do – – – but what do I know? NADA – JDA

    • @Big Skip et al, I agree that the TC is near the Blaze, IMO, the Blaze might very well be what the whole attraction of the special place is all about and the poem leeds us to the Blaze, once there look down and the marvel gaze is the contents of the TC, it’s over at this point. Look quickly down sounds better than any other words to use than I can think of….IMO! So what is the Blaze? Quartz on a rock in the shape of ‘F’! Just like the one on the cover of TTOTC upper left hand corner pic, takes a magnifying glass to see! Next to the dude that looks like Vincent Price….very viviid imagination!

  24. Thanks Matt, you’re right, I hadn’t seen the Hidey Space thread, and the ‘quickly’ info in the post was scant and not similar to Tennyson’s. Having the right dictionery is important since Tenny’s use of it was incomplete. Late response…. long days drive to my own Sierra Mts. Cool & beautiful they are.

  25. Look quickly down like a bird of prey, with focus and intent. Perhaps then you won’t miss a corner of the TC exposed below a group of rocks. Look with intentionality. A quick glance might not be sufficient. It probably is not buried under dirt, but it might be hidden partially among stones. Just my opinion

    Franklin

  26. Franklin:
    BigSkip here….
    Your’re very close. IMO, it’s hidden, not buried, in plane sight. At forty-two pounds, it could easily be placed on a flat surface and would most likely stay there for decades, possibly centuries. I have previously mentioned that, due to the irregular surface of the lid, the crevices and depressions would collect dust, dirt and debris over the years and support small, natural grasses. FF has suggested, right or wrong, that he knows the TC is wet. Was that the famous mistake? So, once you discover the BLAZE, simply look “down” and with a discriminating eye, recognize the TC shape. Not natural in nature.
    All of course, in my opinion

  27. I have confirmed with Dal that this is okay to post here.

    Every so often there’s talk of compiling a list or a map of failed solves. While a good idea in theory, it’s one that’s hard to put into practice given the number of clues and how many different ways they can be interpreted. But the talk did spark an idea for me – what about compiling a list of the various “where warm waters halt” interpretations? It’s an important (if not the most important) clue and, first stanza interpretations aside, it’s a clue that doesn’t rely on any previous clues.
    So I’ve created a forum where WWWH can be compiled – http://www.warmwatersfound.com – and I invite anyone with a WWWH that they’ve considered, researched, eliminated, etc. to post it on the site. The aim of the forum is to compile any potential WWWH, without regard for whether or not the clues fit afterwards or if some other issue (e.g. elevation) eliminates it. Think of it as WWWH brainstorming. And through the identified WWWH and any discussion about each one, the idea is that we can potentially identify new ideas or perhaps collectively save some time/money on BOTG trips (if discussion of a WWWH makes it unfeasible in the eyes of a searcher that would otherwise use it in their solve).

    So take a look, sign up if you want, and let’s get the list going.

    A Few Guidelines on Posting

    The scope of the forum is limited to specific WWWH and discussion related to those specific WWWH. Any general WWWH discussion, discussion related to any of the other clues (not tied to an identified WWWH), or other FF-related items should continue to be done here on Dal’s site.

    New thread titles should be for a specific WWWH and clearly identify what/where it is. For example: “Confluence of Muddy Creek and CO River near Kremmling, CO”

    For less defined and/or bigger WWWH (e.g. Continental Divide), please tie it to a more specific location (probably by using your associated HOB).

    How much or how little you want to post about your WWWH is up to you though if the reasoning isn’t obvious, you should provide some explanation.

    Discussion for a specific WWWH should be related to that WWWH and to the logical solves of the remaining clues using the specific WWWH as your “Begin it where”.

    Please utilize the Search function prior to posting to ensure your WWWH hasn’t already been posted.

    I’m happy to answer questions about the forum if there are any and suggestions as to how to improve the forum (either structurally or aesthetically) are also welcome. I’ve started a couple threads already with some of the WWWH I’ve looked into though there are not any currently in the New Mexico. Yours could be the first.

    http://www.warmwatersfound.com

    Cheers,
    FMC

    • There is a write up by Marvin Candle titled Warm Springs Part 1 and Part 2 that refers to that area. It can be found under the Other Searchers’ Adventures section. You might want to read that write up.

        • If I recall Bob, the HOB for that area is a bit of a stretch or needs work I guess is a better way of saying it. Marvin had a great idea and he walked a lot of the creek, including both natural bridges, but no indulgence. A recent thread on odds/ends got me thinking…halts is present tense…where I think warm springs used the past tense (there used to be a dam that halted the warm spring creek)…seems a problem, but the flume was a great ‘in the wood’ possibility as well as heavy loads/water high, it really got me looking at history/historical places.

      • Thanks for the reference, JBL. That was a great read by Marvin Candle and his reasonings for finding possible clue connections match what I was thinking. It was sad to read how difficult it is to get to, though.
        I don’t think Forrest has a lot of warm and fuzzy feelings for those forestry rules. I think he would have just opened that locked gate and gone straight on in there. Don’t know what Marvin is doing now or even if he is still in the chase but he sure makes me think.

    • Interesting read, thanks Bob. “maps” in black bar at top of page has lots of other WY stories BY LOCATION SITE, which may be of interest to WY searchers.

  28. ‘Waters’ is also a verb:
    Where (something warm) waters/sprinkles/sprays (something that evokes ‘halt’).

    Very late night musings… 😉

  29. Seeker posted this on August 30th in response to something The Count said:

    “Personally, I think the idea of- Finding Forrest Fenn- is a waste of time… other than his bones… [his words, not mine] Understanding the man is helpful, but I get a gut feeling the poem doesn’t really relate to Fenn when it ‘comes to the clues’… just the final outcome.”

    If I may, I’d like to piggyback on that thought. I’ll go a step further by saying that Fenn knew that he would be making/writing history with this chase and did not want to cover old ground in doing so. The difficulty for me has been to ascertain just what tangent from his life is the important one to follow. For it is my opinion that it will not be a completely obtuse course we must find., and yet, through it all, we will be blazing new ground, so to speak. Imagination is the key (but not the word that is key).

    • swwot – I agree that “Finding Forrest Fenn” tends to find FF vs TC. I think that any potential positive hints in TTOTH and TFTW are outweighed by any potential negative hints.

      Indeed, your comment “just what tangent from his life is the important one to follow” may be the secret sauce. I think ‘important’ varies with age, changing thru the lens of one’s experiences and goals. When given reflective time, old age (think end of life) tends towards collective thoughts that transcend time. I suspect most here will know what I’m saying, but the youngsters won’t (their time will come). Therefore, I just don’t see fish/ing as a major factor in the chase equation.

      • Well said Matt. One wonders if the correct ” backwards glance” over Mr. Fenn’s life is needed to get the right perspective to see the poem as it was meant to be seen. The books give hints on how to view, but it could be possible to come to the poem with that particular view and never have even known of Mr. Fenn. So what is that view, if that is what Mr. Fenn has been trying to get us to see? That’s a puzzler, for sure.

        • I’ve thought along those lines for a while as well…. why would ff say to read the poem over & over and THEN READ THE BOOK AGAIN?

          One of my versions is that WWH is a “threshold moment”. Life moves fast, jump to HOB & move through military or cancer? Blaze of course is bright — enlightenment, renewal, success. And Answers, looking back with comprehension.

          Somehow, I think Peggy is the word that is key.

        • Spotting the forest thru the trees may be the ‘big picture’ FF hint. I think that his interest in the Old West and Ancient Native Cultures is the short end of a timeline where eternity is immortality. Maybe WWWH is a man made location that represents our modern age, and that the chase takes us back prehistory to his HOB…a geologic location that represents eternity/immotality due to extreme age. In this manner, the chase may represent a journey from our selfish transient values to his selfless timeless values.

          • OS2 and Matt,

            Thinking outside the box is going to be the character/quality that separates the person that eventually picks up Indulgence in the woods, in my opinion. I do not, as of yet, have a solid idea or concept on which to hang my findings so that I can move with confidence when afield.

  30. wwwh milk river montana flows into Canada then haults and takes it in the canyon down back to montana below the blackfeet reservation (home of brown) glacier national park montana. just a thought.

  31. Dear Forrest,

    You tell us that we should find “where warm waters halt” before trying to solve any of the other clues. Imagining that we haven’t seen the rest of the poem, and all we have to go on is:

    a. “begin it where warm waters halt” and

    b. “somewhere in the mountains north of Santa Fe”

    Do you think that we can confidently determine the starting place for your treasure trail?

    Forrest responds: No, if all you have to go on are those two clues you cannot proceed with confidence. …..

    My conclusions: where warm waters halt is not a stand-alone clue. You will not find where warm waters halt from the meaning of these words by themselves. Narrow your search area down to a locality, and then find your warm waters in that localized area.

  32. Another conclusion I have come to: there is nothing special about “where warm waters halt”, other than it’s geographic location. The fact that it is located “near” the area where Forrest wanted to hide his treasure is what makes it special.

    • TomB – if you think wwwh is nothing special, then why didn’t FF pick a location that was special to him?…considering he must have had plenty of options.

        • Folks have identified the first two clues and walked on by without realizing the significance/importance…what is significant? The spot…or the fact that they were at the second clue? Or the fact that they needed to head off trail at some specific spot?

          • ken, cousin of Jimmy (sadly lost in a Motel8 incident many centuries ago
            ..in the 90’s) you def strike upon three valid questions:

            1) what is the significance of a dedicated searcher ‘assuming’ he/she has nailed down the 1st/2nd clue, yet not even realised it, esp botg?

            2) what (& when) motivated Forrest to adventure off-track into his special spot to begin with?

            3) is the answer to Forrests “travel directly south, then west, then north again – what colour’s the bear” riddle, BLUE?

            i mean.. i’d be ‘blue’ too, were i a polar bear with little left to eat or feed family
            – prob be down right grumpy, tbh 🙁

            ( ..’humans’ are back on the menu imho)
            🙂

          • Hobbit…did you get a hair cut? You rook marvelous! Anyways…yes…not much discussion about ALL of the possible reasons Fenn was originally in the general vicinity of where the chest is hidden. The general consensus seems to be the warm, fuzzy fishing or family theories…and I guess rightfully so. Something tells me this may not be the case at all.
            Heading out to a special place to stash a treasure trove of hand selected valuables, with a 20k word autobio. inside a bronze box…and then committing suicide next to it…appears to be extremely personal and private.
            Inviting folks out to search for his treasure and his special place drives home the fact that Fenn is pretty sure no one will succeed…or at least not for quite some time. These ideas make me contemplate the possibility that this spot would not be familiar/special to close family.
            That said…yes…the answer might be Blue…

          • thanks ken – super-neat of you to notice my new modern “NY real-estate agent” haircut tbh – am jus being a major trend-setter ’tis all, as per usual 🙂
            ( ..i borrowed it from the 80’s – but shh!!)

            but i actually meant ‘what initially’ motivated him to afford the time/curiosity to find such a place that no-one is ever likely to stumble upon accidentally (including searchers, it seems) in the first instance? – which could nail down a time-frame /state perhaps imho

            what entices a person to venture off the beaten path, that no other person should likely discover in a thousand years?

            i.e. did he have spare time in the wilderness while his clients fished? ..or just relic hunting perhaps?

            (i’m picking it’s not a throrough-fare type wilderness area, jus for the record 🙂 )

          • Ken, I’m with JDA on your thoughts.

            As I have started to share in other threads, I think there are at least two lines of thought going on in the poem. In part, that is why you cannot discount any of it. Somewhat of a rhetorical question, but is there a difference between a special spot and that spot being significant?

    • It seems that he must have been in the general area for a reason before it became special to him. Was it just a whim that brought him there initially? Or was it something else?
      Fenn has said that a searcher would not know if they had the correct wwwh until after finding the treasure…so…what could be of significance in that place that would lead one through the rest of the clues to “the” spot?

      • Try thinking in reverse order, to answer your question. Let’s say that the Fenn family is on the way to Yellowstone, or on their way back. They take a side road to find a camping spot for the night. They wind up finding a GREAT fishing area, and a lovely camping spot. This becomes a “regular” stop from then on out. Forrest scampers all over the area. It becomes special to him, and to his family.

        Forrest decides to hide the treasure. He goes back to this “Special Spot” A place of MANY fond memories. How to “Draw a map” in words to this spot? Start at where you want to secret it, and work backwards. Find geographical “Clues” or “Hints” that allow you to create a map from TC hidey spot back out to civilization – then just reverse the trail you have created, in the poem, from the “Civilization” point, back up the mountain to the “Hidey Spot”. That is how I see Forrest winding up at wwwh, and how it became the #1 clue. Just my way of looking at the poem. JDA

        • JD. The logic of what you said is perfect. I think that is exactly the way Forrest did it. Well done!!!

          • I do agree with the logic…just not with that particular example…or area…or circumstances. I was eluding to an area found while out and about on a more personal/singular trek of sorts. Maybe one of those fly off and land scenarios…or drive off and park adventure…for a purpose.

          • Ken. Agreed. I should have been more specific in my comments on JD’s statements. I was referring about the construction of the poem by beginning at the hiding place and working backwards to where warm waters halt. I do not believe the hiding spot was a “family” area, or that it was found on a family trip.

          • Tom…Fenn has said that he always felt he was born 100 years too late…which implies a more simplistic outlook on his basic needs to be happy in life. A good number of young lads galloped/walked/sailed away from family and never saw them again. They grew into experienced men doing what came natural to them. I liken this to many of Fenn’s adventures in his life time…and his affinity to repeat the process in many ways. He does admit to choosing the importance of putting his family first…before heading off in the other more adventurous direction…but…his final plan did/does include throwing himself on his treasure to rot in the sun…in a place unknown to anyone but him. Dang…

        • JDA – where you get your “civilization point” buzz from??? This is similar Tim’s ‘edge of civilization’ theory that would have the arrow of time within the poem. I currently agree to basic concept, but I think any ‘time travel’ within poem it likely just a coincidence that some might notice while connecting the dots.

          • My “civilization point” has nothing to do with the “Edge of civilization” theory.

            I can not feature that every line of the poem takes place in the mountains.

            I see wwwh as a confluence with a bigger body of water – a river perhaps. Most rivers have “civilization” close-by since rivers were once the “Roads” upon which commerce moved – thus, I picture wwwh as being fairly close to a town of some size – Thus civilization.

            JDA

        • Ken;

          When or where did Forrest ever say that it was “in a place unknown to anyone but him”. Dang…
          Not sure that I have ever read that.

          Forrest does say, ““Mr. Fenn,
          Did you choose the hiding location purely because it was special to you, or were there other considerations? […] ~Michael Monroe
          Thanks Michael. The spot where I hid the treasure was in my mind from the time I first started thinking about the chase. It is special to me and there was never another consideration. I was going to make it work no matter what. In my reverie, I often find myself stealing away to that place and I will always consider it to be mine alone.” f

          Yes, he will “consider it to be mine alone.” – But I am fairly certain that the spot was known to someone other than himself – Skippy? Marvin, his Dad??? Who knows? JDA

          • JDA – same question to you as TomB…why did FF choose this particular starting place/point? He had the most flexibility in where to locate his starting point.

          • jda…if no one knows where he hid the treasure…but him…and he considers it to be “mine alone”….and he planned/plans to throw his body on the treasure to rot in the sun….I guess he did not mind so much that nobody else was going to know at that point. Are you suggesting a spiritual convergence of sorts after that kind of finale? I think Fenn’s intentions are/were a bit more guttural and less sympathetic.

          • Ken;

            I am not sure I indicated anything about
            ” a spiritual convergence of sorts after that kind of finale?” I merely quoted what Forrest said -” I will always consider it to be mine alone.” f Forrest’s words not mine. I attached no significance to them.

            I see Forrest as a pragmatist – a realist. The spot was special to him – he loved going there, for reasons of his own. If he has carried out his plan, he would have taken a hand full of pills, laid himself next to where Indulgence is secreted, and died.

            A searcher named Joe asked Forrest the following question: “Forrest, if you die before me where do you want to be buried?” What would your answer be? – Joe
            Joe, thanks for the question. I have no desire to be buried in a box. It’s too dark and cold for me, and too lasting. I would rather go into the silent mountains on a warm sunny day, sit under a tree where the air is fresh and the smell of nature is all around, and let my body slowly decay into the soil. What can be better than that?” f

            I consider this a realistic view of life, and of death.

            Forrest expected the “chase” to go on many many – maybe even a thousand years. What bones were not drug off by scavengers would be found next to Indulgence, for who ever it was that solved the riddles, and found Indulgence.

            Forrest survived cancer – new ballgame. Indulgence is still out there; only, no bones beside her. JDA

          • J3DA – you def make some good points (& bravo for rightfully correcting Zaps on his lazy quoting above too, btw 🙂 )

            agreed, that a close friend/family member was also likely privy to his previously discovered spot, given this comment;

            “And when my tackle box is closed at last, and the cadis hatch is gone, I will rest through all of time and space, pillowed down and scented in, and with a smile that comes from remembering the special things that brought me to that final place, many of which were knowing you were there, somewhere, waiting for me.”

            but, were i forced to randomly guess, (which is my forte in life coincidentally)
            i would guesstimate that Forrest (firstly and solely) discovered that special place on his own, thus “owning it” ..then introduced it to one other person, someone with a similar penchant for the beauty of raw nature perhaps

            …like a landscape painter even, maybe?

            (self-confessed Eric fan, admittedly 🙂 )

          • CH;

            Yes, it is the quote you posted re the Caddis that has always led me to believe that his “Special spot” was special to him, and probably special to Marvin and probably Skippy. I guess we will just have to ask Forrest once Indulgence is found. I agree, probably Forrest found this special place, and then a bit later showed it to his Dad and maybe Skippy. We shall see – JDA

          • CH
            re the landscape painter…If I have chosen the correct spot, a landscape painter would be in 7th heaven – The views are “Out of this world”. If Forrest did not pick the spot where I think Indulgence rests, he very well should have. I know that this spot is where I want my ashes strewn. – JDA

    • Tom B: in this we are in agreement. Forrest needed a starting point, but there was no necessity for it to be “special” other than being uniquely identifiable.

      • Tom: I’m a step ahead of you on that! Cheers! (takes sip of Stone 21st Anniversary “Hail to the Hop Thief”)

        • Excellent choice in beer Zap. I have yet to find a Stone IPA I do not like. As a matter of fact I liked a few too many while watching football yesterday..

        • Solid choice! If you are a beer person, take a trip up to Four Sons brewing in HB – they have a blood orange IPA that is phenomenal.

        • Imajin: afraid I don’t and won’t do fruit in my beer. Blood orange is all the rage with IPAs, but not my cup of tea and I predict will run its course within a year. Have been to 4 Sons in HB many times, and each time I plead with them to discontinue their blood orange experimentation, or at least don’t produce it IN PLACE of their non-blood-orange IPA.

          Ballast Point is at least wise enough not to discontinue regular Sculpin in favor of their nasty pineapple, watermelon, and habanero Sculpin varieties.

          • Have to say I’m a huge fan of both the pineapple sculpin and grapefruit sculpin. Habenero and watermelon not so much. Last night I had a beer at a local brewery that had some onion notes to it which was surprisingly really good. Hmm warm water does halt when brewing beer 🙂

          • Hi Aaron — and warm “water” results when drinking beer. 😉 It would be amusing if our paths have unknowingly crossed at Four Sons, Beachwood, Ballast Point or even one of the many Yardhouses.

            On the subject of Forrest’s warm waters, what I find surprising is that more people don’t take a broader view (after all, Forrest has said to look at the big picture). Most WWWHs I see proposed are pretty arbitrary — e.g. a hot or warm spring entering a colder body of water. So ho hum. There are hundreds of them in the four states. When one warm spring is much like another, how could you possibly be sure you had “nailed down” the right one? This ought to be a big clue that none of them is right. Instead, it seems searchers justify their choice of WWWH by answers to subsequent clues that they find nearby (e.g. a canyon down, a home of Brown, a blaze). In my opinion, the correct WWWH is unique, obvious (once you’ve had the head-smack moment), and stands on its own. Sure, later clues help add confidence, but they aren’t necessary for identifying WWWH.

          • I’m guessing you’re not going to share. I can’t remember if you’re one of the “never sharing my solve” people or not. If not, when might you be done with your botg to the point where you can enlighten us?

          • Ha, there is a chance that are paths crossed unknowingly. I’ve been to the Ballast Point, and both Stones in San Diego, the Yardhouse downtown and in Mission Valley.

            I think you’re right that people more often look for later clues that fit a warm water halts. It is difficult to get the correct WWWH otherwise. I believe that’s how FF wanted it though. Everyone checking clues around a number of different WWWH means more people out and enjoying the outdoors and the treasure not getting found for a very long time.

          • FMC: No, I’m not inclined to give away WWWH (and get pillaried by the others that have solved it), but I’ve been awfully generous with clues over the years on where it is and how to figure it out. In any case, I think folks would much rather discover it on their own instead of having the answer handed to them. To use an apt analogy, I would rather teach people to fish than give them fish.

            So, to close with redundant info: WWWH cannot be solved (IMO) with just line 5 of the poem. You absolutely need the hints from elsewhere in the poem, and of these the first stanza has all the additional information you need, though there is redundant information elsewhere in the poem. Full disclosure: all my opinion. Your mileage may vary.

          • Zap,
            You devil of a purist! I would love if Four Sons went with a more traditional IPA ala Sculpin, Stone, or my current favorite, Two Hearted. I never turn down a quality IPA, but my heart still lies with barrel aged stouts and heavier, darker beers. That would be pretty hilarious if some of us had crossed paths. I wouldn’t doubt it!

            For WWWH, if it can be determined by using a map of the US rocky mountains, it must be a relatively large area. The scale of a map used in the LGFI problem would only allow as much!

          • Hi Imajin: I ~do~ like Four Sons Hopportunity (at least I think it’s theirs?) — just not the blood orange variety of it. Like you, I love barrel-aged stouts. As winter approaches, I favor Russian Imperial Stouts and barleywines, but it’s nice to mix it up with IPAs and DIPAs.

            “For WWWH, if it can be determined by using a map of the US rocky mountains, it must be a relatively large area. The scale of a map used in the LGFI problem would only allow as much!”

            WWWH is first and foremost a big picture problem, but WWWH itself is a pinpoint on the map, not a broad area. (You can find Forrest quotes to this effect.) WWWH is solvable with a (reasonably sized) map of the U.S. Rockies. For instance, you don’t need a 7.5-minute topo map to see it. But with the big map, that’s as far as you’re gonna get; to move past WWWH you’ll need much more detail. All in my opinion, of course.

  33. My opinion: We, the searchers, must determine the local geographic area where the poem “map” is located before we can solve the first clue (where warm waters halt).

    • TomB – of all the clues, FF had the most leeway with what location he chose for his starting point, so I think he used something unique, not generic, nor specific (generic subset). My guess is that wwwh is so unique to FF that he retained this location, and the non rhyming “halt”. Any other location probably would have nixed the halt logjam in poem.

      • Matt. I have to disagree. I think JD is right on, in that Forrest started with the hiding spot (special to him) and wrote clues in reverse order until he reached where warm waters halt. This, then, became the first clue in the poem.

        • TomB – I think you’re missing my point. I agree that FF started with hidey spot, but why did he pick his particular starting point? IOW hidey was fixed from conception, but if he could pick any starting location, why this particular starting location?

          • WWWH is the PERFECT starting place. Begin the quest at a place that is an enigma. What are warm waters? Why waters, not water? Where do waters (of any kind stop) – and dams are not an option? So many questions. There are thousands of possibilities!!! What better place to start a quest???? I can think of none better – can you? He worked on this poem for 15 plus years. I think that HIS wwwh is perfect! But what do I know? Probably NADA – JDA

          • Matt… that is what I was saying. Folks have not understood the importance/significance of what…before they walked on by? It seems he was at a location for some reason…and then discovered his hidey spot…perhaps by going off trail for a bit.

          • To add as I stated before, even though I may be as clueless as most, is that my WWWH is the Rio Caliente where it ends by Espanola, NM. ff did say it would be good to learn a couple Spanish words (not sure what page in TTOTC that was specifically).

          • Ken – I’ll chalk it up to gold fever, but you’re right…just what was FF doing when he discovered his hidey spot? I think many dismiss this question since FF could have been doing any number of things due to his range of interests. In my solve, I can only guess that FF discovered hidey while wandering off trail near a place that gets a small amount of ‘tourists’ for various reasons. My solve has no issue with how & why FF found hidey, blaze, HOB, or wwwh, so I’m safe. My question is how can searchers pick wwwh locations without significant FF connection?

            I agree with others here that latter half of clues are in close proximity and that anyone could easily walk past TC when this close. I doubt many searchers have been this close, but rather think it’s the local tourists that innocently pass by.

            I call it my Starbuck’s theory…that something is drawing folks ‘near’ TC, like a Starbuck’s flashing ‘free coffee’ in the middle of nowhere.

          • Hi Matt Brown, I think you have ask a brilliant question and if people would consider this very closely it could help strengthen or weaken their wwwh..if you answered this question looking at my solve the answer would be that it’s the only logical place to begin! To begin before or after this point some direction would have to be given as this point has to be reached to get to the chest but by starting here no direction has to be given, but as JDA has said it becomes the perfect place to start a quest because so much mystery is involved in solving this location.. obviously jmo.

          • Matt;

            To me it is self-evident.

            Forrest loves to fish. Forrest loves the mountains. Forrest is in love with unearthing the past. Forrest is an adventurer. Forrest would be attracted to a place that encompasses all of the above. Maybe some place high up on a mountain. Someplace with fantastic views of the mountains that surround him. Someplace that looks down on a stream that he loves to fish. Possibly some place that has a long long history – dating back to the 1800’s, or maybe even farther in the past. A place steeped with Native American lore.

            Such a place would be a natural magnet to ANY adventurer or out-doors man – out-doors lady. Of course there would be foot traffic nearby – Don’t ya think?

            Think of what Forrest has always loved, and you might be led to a place near where Indulgence lies. Who knows? All I know is, I have found such a place. Is it the right place? Again, who knows? JDA

          • Yeah Matt,
            “I call it my Starbuck’s theory…that something is drawing folks ‘near’ TC, like a Starbuck’s flashing ‘free coffee’ in the middle of nowhere.”

            Kinda like he said, “Your destination is small, but its location is huge”…….

            Or, as The Donald says, “That’s YUUGE!!!
            🙂

          • loco – Kinda like he said, “Your destination is small, but its location is huge”…….

            Dang it…I just knew there was more than 9 clues!!!

          • loco – ya just had to mention “The Big D” didn’t ya!? – i mean… tsk tsk 🙁

            YA FIRED!!! 😛

          • * * * * * * Matt Brown asked – “. . . hidey was fixed from conception, but if he could pick any starting location, why this particular starting location?” * * * * * *

            In theory, anyway (and in my own thinking), because the starting location is a portal or gateway of some sort. Not in the literal sense, but in the sense that it’s physically impossible (or at least very difficult) to get your boots to the second clue/location without going by or through the first clue/location.

            Q – “When you hid your treasures, did you take the same path that is described in the poem, or were you able to skip some of the steps because of your familiarity with the area?” Curtis

            A – “The clues should be followed in order Curtis. There is no other way to my knowlege.” f

            JAKe

          • Questgeek ~”…if you answered this question looking at my solve the answer would be that it’s the only logical place to begin!?”

            I was reviewing recent posts while sipping Jo, and this line jumped at me. Indeed, your ‘logical place to begin’ is the buzz I’m hunting to ‘flesh out’ my wwwh.

            However, JAKe makes a very good point regarding wwwh limiting path potential. My current spin is that its a hybrid location which combines various elements, nothing random.

        • MW
          My question is… when the treasure was hidden, did you follow the clues just like they are mentioned in the poem or did you just go to where you wanted to hide it, knowing that the poem would lead someone there? Does that make sense? ~Tim

          .

          Tim,
          I knew from the beginning where to hide the treasure. It wasn’t until later that the clues were provided to find that spot. I don’t know “…that the poem will lead someone there,” as you asked, but the poem does provide everyone with that opportunity. f

          Yes he reversed engineered it. So wwwh isn’t significant to him but it is significant to finding the TC.

          He had to search a map probably to find information to lead others to his spot.
          Wwwh could be at the top of the tallest mountain with no roads for all its worth. So you have yo follow the canyon down to get near a place where there is a road. Then follow that somewhere yo finally park/walk/hide TC.

          • Good comments, everybody.

            The definitions proposed by searchers for “warm waters” include waters in hot springs/rivers/ geysers/gulf of Mexico . . . or at the continental divide . . . , tears, urine,
            and blood. I don’t know whether I have left out any possibilities that were mentioned.

            A place to die could be defined as a
            place where warm waters (blood)
            halt. So when FF chose the place
            to take a big batch of sleeping pills,
            this may have been what he was
            thinking. But that, by itself, would
            not have provided much of a clue
            to the location. If he decided to
            end it all by taking those pills in
            Denver, that seems like a rather arbitrary location, and there are no special definitions or features of Denver associated with warm waters halting . . . that I know of. So there should be another way that we can be thinking of “warm waters halting” that is associated with the hidey place. I don’t think it’s about blood
            not flowing any more.

        • TomB , is it correct that Forrest said the poem already existed years ago, (his Dad wrote if??*)
          And that he just changed it to fit his purpose?

  34. Here’s a tip….
    Get a county map for each of the states of interest.
    Then go through each county in each state and circle the ones that have an obvious water connection….
    One is obvious

    • Santiago…that seems like a whole bunch of criss cross apple sauce games. I like the idea of letting the poem give me big fat head ache much better. My brain is mush from looking at maps….but I still have a pretty good collection!

    • Wikipedia has a county list for each state, for instance here’s Colorado –

      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_counties_in_Colorado

      You can also download maps if you want showing state’s counties –

      https://nationalmap.gov/small_scale/printable/reference.html

      I find the names of the USGS topo maps for each state interesting and entertaining; topo index maps are here (Colorado again as an example) –

      http://www.yellowmaps.com/usgs/state-index-maps/topo-CO.htm

      JAKe

      • nice links JAKe, and your Counties theory def aligns with his “right map/investigating higher things” comments imho

        but how much does this conflict with Forrests “I don’t know how Toponymy can help you at all Chris” statement??

        def stumped me (halfway down my perceived rabbit-hole) on that one – almost as much as Denver Museum Carpark being a (final?) clue too, tbh 🙁

        • Santiago’s Counties theory, ‘Obbit, not mine.

          I think the links are interesting ’cause I like all things maps – I never claimed they were useful to the Chase.

          But whenever needle-hunters ask for more hay, I’m always happy to oblige. 😉

          JAKe

  35. WWWH is in close proximity to a rental car place. How do I know this? Because I am insane. But once again, I must repeat what I was told: “An intelligent person is not going to solve this. A crazy person is”. By the way “in the wood” in ancient English can mean one has gone completely mad. I’m getting close. lol.

    • Sparrow – are you quietly implying that one must be of “ancient english origins” in order to be completely bonkers??

      tsk tsk.. def sounds like it!! 🙁

      • CH—. From what I understand the original line in the poem said:
        “If you are from Yonkers and completely bonkers I give you title to the gold”. So it seems a crazy New Yorker might be the real implication for “in the wood”. But I suppose an ancient British person might live in Yonkers, not sure.

        • Going back to your original point Sparrow, I think it helps to be half crazy when reading the poem. I work on two solves simultaneously. A serious solve and a silly/stupid solve. Trying to come up with the most ridiculous solutions has at times given me inspirations for my serious solve. I suppose that if a sense of humor helps that would mean that hobbit has a leg up on the rest of us.

          While I’m not willing to share much about my serious solve yet, I am willing to share some of my sillier ideas. I worry that others will take it as snark or mockery though so I haven’t done it much.

          • thanks JW 🙂 – although possessing a warped s.o.h hasn’t found me the TC yet,
            it also hasn’t gotten me into any trouble what-so-ever eithe[BANNED]

            [wrong again hobbit!! – admin]

        • Sparrow – i’m def not confirming nor denying the fact that i may also be bonkers, that’s for sure!!

          signed: hobbit (from Yonkers ..coincidentally)
          🙂

  36. In his 2010 radio interview, Forrest said (para), “A person with resolve and imagination will be able to find the treasure..”. That’s about all I have, plus what I have found using my crazy imagination so I am in close proximaty to you in the “going mad” department :-))

  37. Ken. You said: “It seems that he must have been in the general area for a reason before it became special to him. Was it just a whim that brought him there initially? Or was it something else?”

    My theory is that Forrest spotted his “special place” from his plane. He mentioned flying off to new places to explore. I don’t believe it has anything to do with family. This is a very private place for him alone. For this reason, I never even considered Yellowstone as a possible hiding spot.

    • Has anyone confirmed the legitimacy of the story that FF told someone that his father would’ve known where it is located?

    • My suspicions is he found it in that 1.5yr before he joined the Air Force.
      He could have joined right after the A&M story, but he waits until he was 20.

    • Tom B

      So if he discovered his special place while flying, do you have a specific area in mind? My guess is that you were “flying” using Google Earth?

      Franklin

  38. JD. I hope you will post some pictures of your suspected hiding spot at some point. Sounds like a wonderful area.

    • Yes, I will post pictures – dependent on two outcomes:
      1) I find Indulgence
      2) I exhaust ALL possibilities that it is in my general search area.

      I am hoping for #1 – JDA

      • When is search #15?

        I’m anxious to see your solve and make sure it’s not in the area of my latest interest.

  39. JD. I appreciate all of the effort you have put into the chase, and you will certainly have earned it if you indeed find the treasure.

  40. Just an update – we’re up to 31 identified WWWH. If you’d like to see the map (with cool TFTW Map overlay), you can find it here:

    http://www.warmwatersfound.com/gallery/image/6-warm-waters-found-as-of-92517-31/

    I am still going through the old solves on Dal’s site to harvest WWWH, but I must say that, based on the solves I’ve gone through (and I started with the oldest), if I had to bet on someone finding it, I’d bet on Cynthia. For the quantity of solves that she’s posted, I’m really impressed with their consistent quality (IMO) and if anyone reading through old solves on this site, I’d start with hers.

    • FMC, thanx for the effort. Are the flags then “back documented” in some way in a spreadsheet of some kind, maybe by common name and coordinates? If that were done, then folks could see if their WWWH is the same as one already logged.

      • Yes, there’s a master excel file I’m updating as new wwwh are posted (unfortunately, there are only a few others that have posted wwwh they are done with though it’s early so maybe it picks up…)

        I think what you’re asking is if there’s a way to more easily cross-reference whether a wwwh has been posted using the map and the answer is yes. So the main map I linked to above is the “pretty” one with the tftw map overlay. In the comments of that posted map is a link to the more “functional” map, where you can zoom in to a particular area and click on the individual markers for the name and a link to the associated thread.

        Pretty sweet system if I do say so myself.

      • Agreed, while the visual of the map looks nice it might be easier to understand if the locations are documented with location names and / or coordinates.

        Thanks for putting this together!

          • Thanx JDA – historically, I am not a “clicker” and don’t poke around too much on websites/pages. This is really interseting stuff – to see how many WWWH other folks have decided upon.

          • swwot;

            And what we see are just the folks who have submitted completed solves. Think of how many others are still out there (like me) who are still working on a solve, and will not divulge their wwwh until either Indulgence is found, or every last effort has been made to find it in a given area. JDA

    • FMC;

      Maybe you have not come across it, but Marvin Candle posted ta solve entitled “Where warm waters halt parts 1 and 2. He starts his solve at Warm Springs Creek near Dunoir, Wyoming.
      JDA

        • Don’t want to argue, but what is listed is “Warm Springs Creek 3 miles SW of Guernsey, WY – NOT the Warm Springs Creek near Dunoir, WY
          JDA

          • I believe both are listed. And it’s an interactive site. While I’m happy to post wwwh that people tell me here, everyone can register and post their wwwh themselves.

          • No argument, JDA.

            But also listed is “Headwaters of Warm Springs Creek – West of DuNoir, WY” (entered last Saturday), and it links to the 2-part Marvin Candle entry you refer to.

            In the “WWWH in Wyoming” folder it’s right after (or under) the Guernsey entry (which was kind of a flubbed site).

            JAKe

      • I looked for it based on your post, but I don’t think I could pin down an exact location for “apgar park” in Glacier NP. Any more details to help with that?

  41. Hi guys! New here and excited about the chase. How could I have never heard of this whole thing until a week ago?! Anyway, I know a lot less than the rest of you, but my initial instinct is that “it” is more significant than WWWH. Which I think is just a clever way of saying the New Mexico border. A halt is abrupt, like a line or a hard stop. If it were a matter of some warmer waters simply meeting up with cooler waters, that would be a slow mixing and not an abrupt halt with a definitive starting point. Also, he didn’t say hot waters (as in a hot spring). Ive got to believe he chose the word warm over hot for a reason. Warm Waters is uniquely a New Mexico game and fishing term, so it follows that those “terms” would halt at the border where past that they have no jurisdiction? That’s my take for now! So…if I can figure out (using this knowledge and the rest of the clues) what “it” is, I know to begin “it” at the NM border 🙂

    • Welcome aboard Tinkgrrbell! Now that you’ve found Dal’s site, take some time to read through the archives to see if any others have posted something you’re wondering about. Dal has a nifty search built into this site, and it really helps you narrow down what has already been considered.

      Good luck as you chase,

      swwot
      (Some Where West Of Toledo)

    • welcome tink, you’ll want to do some reading on Mr. Fenn, his knowledge of poetry may surprise you…alliteration is a common device used in poetry to contribute to style, flow, cadence, etc. My OPINION is that he has not excluded ‘hot waters’ by using ‘warm’, because ‘where hot waters halt’ is just not as pretty sounding as ‘where warm waters halt’. Also, consider a geyser (which is technically a hot spring), does the water not go up, halt for but a moment, then fall back to earth. Many believe Yellowstone as a possible WWWH, but not proven yet either way. Good luck and keep reading!

      • Tbug
        This refers to a source on the mountain that descends to the bed of the creek below the coffee house, I think I have become accustomed to so much your ff to tell its history and to drink a cup of coffee, more would be good with a chicken egg omelet ,what do you think.

  42. Kym, you asked “TomB , is it correct that Forrest said the poem already existed years ago, (his Dad wrote if??*)
    And that he just changed it to fit his purpose?”

    I have not heard that and I would doubt that it is true. I think Forrest wrote the poem specifically around the site he had in mind to hide the treasure.

    • In answer to your question – Let’s read Forrest’s words.” So I wrote a poem containing nine clues that if followed precisely, will lead to the end of my rainbow and the treasure.” 10/10
      Introductory sentence to the poem in the TTOTC – Page 132

      That about says it all, at least to me – JDA

        • I saw you said all u have is phone. I will do best to explain this & hope u understand me. On my phone on the right is an arrow button & on left is a menu box.if u tap it a box appers there is copylink where u can e-mail stuff to u or send it to yourself in a text. the other helpful item is find in page this allows you to go to a page & look for a word or phrase depending on the page. It work just about everywhere. Very helpful. I hope this helps. Also if u have a library near u u can use the computers. I did a lit of my ancestry on a library computer. Good luck

          • Thanks Wildbirder, yes, I’ve made great use of my notes app as well, taking notes on an archaeology report that lady v posted, it is fascinating 🙂

          • Yes, Lady V, even apart from the chase I find it very informative and fascinating. I love all the ‘ole Native American trail references in and around YNP, MT, I’D and WY. , anyway, thanks 🙂

      • JDA
        have a coffee in the house, that’s what I found translating brown in Greek in my language, but in your language in English also will try and try to be happy.
        I think porfice your ff takes a lot of coffee in your stories

  43. Hello all,

    Please help me think thru this possible logic:

    Per Forrest, a few folks have figured the first two clues, been w/in 500 feet of the treasure, but then walked right past the other 7 clues and the treasure…

    Doesn’t that mean that the max distance between clue #2 and the chest is 500 ft?!?

    Forrest has said that WWWH is clue #1. If we say that canyon down is #2, then HOB, Blaze, and chest all within 500 feet.

    It seems that, if true, would invalidate many of the proposed solutions and greatly narrow search fields for any solves that remain. No?

    • I mentioned this a while back and kinda got shot down. There’s always the possibility that the searchers explained where they were, but didn’t tell Forrest how they got there with the clues, so FF wasn’t sure if they actually knew what the clues related to.

      I hear ya though, seems like a definite possiblity that the final 7 clues could all be within 500 feet of the TC. Here are his comments:

      1. 26 Sep 2012= “Some folks correctly mentioned the first two clues to me in an email and then they went right past the other seven, not knowing that they had been so close.”

      2. 8 Mar 2013= “There have been some who have been within 500 feet because they have told me where they have been. Others have figured the first two clues and went right past the treasure and didn’t know it.”

      3. 30 Dec 2014= “No one has given me the correct solve past the first two clues.”

      4. 2 Nov 2015= “Searchers have come within about 200 feet. Some may have solved the first four clues, but I am not certain.”

    • Mark
      No, it means two separate statements by Fenn was merged as one
      1. Searchers figured out the 1st two clues.
      2. A. People have been within 500ft if TC.
      B. Searchers have been within 200ft of TC.
      Therefore 2B would be clue #?

    • “It’s not a matter of trying, it’s a matter if thinking… Sure, I mean people figured the first couple clues and unfortunately walked passed the treasure chest.”

    • Mark B.
      Interpretation once again is a gray area. If the many statements regarding 1st two clues…and walking past the treasure are bundled together…and taken in context, then it does seem to markedly reduce the target area. Forrest’s answers and statements are mostly open ended and leave a lot of room for conjecture. I do agree that on the surface, it does suggest that many folks are approaching things from the wrong angle. I don’t want to rile up the sheriff…so I include myself when I say this. I also agree that it appears the target area is smaller than expected…

      • Ken,
        I agree… there has been a lot of thoughts that people are others who are not searchers. Those within 500′ are different to those within 200′ [ sure not all the 500’ers are the same as the 200’ers… we just don’t know ].
        Yous said~ ‘it does suggest that many folks are approaching things from the wrong angle.’
        While I agree to this as well, in some cases. I also have to ponder the thought… fenn was told of the first two clues, but the searcher may not have had them as the first two clues, possibility.
        So, those searchers didn’t know the had the first two clues deciphered, in order [ presented in the poem ], but got to the location for another reasoning. While “others” [ and I’m calling them searchers as well ] Got to the same location by aberrations, and had no knowledge of why they were there [“oblivious to the poem” / maybe something from the book or outsource researching].

        Personally, I’m not worried about who or how many were at any distance from the chest… [ other than they got some clues correct ]… The real interesting part is, many seem to go by the remaining clues and not understood they did. Especially *IF* the hiking distance from clue to clue, from start to finish could fall within a 1000′ { that is not to say, the distance from where we can enter the location is close… that could be a mile away, in theory }.

        ‘Wrong angle idea is what is so perplexing. *IF* searcher who live and breath this poem have been at or in line of sight of all the clues… and there seems to be several … Why the heck didn’t they notice other clues?
        Thinking along the lines, If you knew what hoB is you’d go right to the chest, and/or the last clue Q&A. Would it seem logical that we wouldn’t need to be concern about prior clues, such as wwwh, if one of them [a searcher] could have spotted/deciphered a later clue, such as home of Brown or water high-?- and just go from there… even without wwwh etc. [reverse engineering Q&A]

        Well, in the linear, literal line of thinking, anyways.

        • Most people follow a creek in their search area. If the TC was just 200′ from a creek or a trail in one direction and 500′ from a creek or a trail in another direction that would explain the 200 and 500. That would mean the TC is not by a creek though and even harder to find. Maybe a view of something or next to a tree he likes.

          Also, he said if I told you where HOB is you would walk right to it. Are we sure he is talking about the chest when he said it and not HOB?

          • Jake,

            That quote by Fenn just sparked something in my brain…

            He was asked “Who is Brown?”

            His response started off as if he was going to say, “That’s for you to find out.”

            He didn’t correct the question like “what is Brown” or “how do you know it’s a person?”

            Do you think he slipped and indicated that Brown is, in fact, a person?

            TimM

          • * * * * * * TimM asked – “Do you think he slipped and indicated that Brown is, in fact, a person?” * * * * * *

            Nah. When she first asks “. . . there’s a reference to Brown’s house. Who’s Brown?”

            He didn’t say “Home, not house”. He just says “There’s references to wood . . . .”

            I think he was just doing his best to let sleeping dogs lie, Tim.

            JAKe

        • So I’ve asked before. If some have been within 200′ and some 500′. The reason he knows this is bc people tell him exactly where they are at. Now, I feel like we could narrow down the search area tremendously. How many people on the forum have emailed him exactly where they are? If they are people whos have searched the same place and also emailed him the exact location of where they are wouldn’t that give us a very small search area?

          • yes, IMO if we worked as a team it would’ve been found long ago. But most are secretive, I’ve learned… and for good reason, I suppose.

      • * * * * * * ken summarized – ” If the many statements regarding 1st two clues…and walking past the treasure are bundled together…and taken in context, then it does seem to markedly reduce the target area. . . . it appears the target area is smaller than expected…” * * * * * *

        And throw into that mix the rather odd way ff phrased this answer:

        “The little girl in India cannot get CLOSER THAN the first two clues.” f

        (unless he’s telling us that the first two clues yield 37 degrees north latitude, which is the northern border of India and also the Colorado/New Mexico border. . . and I seriously doubt this)

        JAKe

        • OMG ~(3) NOW knowing FF walked a few miles from car while stashing TC rules out long distance trek

          To stave off fussbudgets, I should have said…less than a few miles.

          Kinda amusing that “a few miles” can be read as total distance or one way, IMO (my read is total)

      • Seeker, xlnt post!

        My interest with ATF is their wide array that almost make for a secondary ‘map’ of poem. I mean…

        (1) NOW knowing FF drove a ‘sedan’ rules out previous wild off road stuff
        (2) NOW knowing FF ‘walked’ from car with TC rules out ‘raging rapids’ stuff
        (3) NOW knowing FF walked a few miles from car while stashing TC rules out long distance trek
        (4) NOW knowing FF took 2 trips to hidey in 1 afternoon further reduces car to hidey distance

        These commonly know 4 ATF suggest later half of poem area is quite small, and many concur. How small, who knows, but let’s just refer to this unknown area as ‘pay dirt’. Now, since poem clues must be BOTH consecutive and contiguous, where (IF) pay dirt area decreases to fit poem read, then the likelihood increase of bypassing clues directly, or INdirectly by violating consecutive and contiguous premises.

        I find many ATF more useful vs blindly ‘mapping’ poem metaphors to maps. I think too many here limit ATF to post solve support which is nothing more than confirmation bias via ‘cafeteria’ approach.

    • Interpretation varies, but be careful not to deduce it is the same searcher who correctly identified some clues the same that were within 200′.

      1. One afternoon, two trips from his car and he walked ‘several miles’.
      2. Some have been at the ‘starting point’ but didn’t know it, by aberration.
      3. Some have been within 500 feet.
      4. Less have been within 200 feet.
      5. Many have correctly identified the first clue, some have id the first two clues and possibly 3 to 4 ‘not sure’.

      And we don’t know for sure those who ended up at 200′ where following the right clues or what number.

      • Oz10: Your #1 is inaccurate. Nowhere has Forrest said he walked several miles on the afternoon he hid the treasure. What he *did* write (in response to a question from Ron) was: “But I will say that I walked less than a few miles if that will help. I just looked “few” up and one definition is “scant.” Why do I sound like I’m talking in circles? f”

        Less than a few miles. He placed a restriction on maximum distance; he placed no such limit on the minimum, e.g. 100 feet is less than a few miles.

          • more than two; but not many
            as a side note…few= not many, a handful, one or two, a couple, two or three. As an adjective few= scant, meagre

          • You also wrote this ‘e.g. 100 feet is less than a few miles.’ That’s cute, but with that statement you are also saying that Forrest is using trickery, subterfuge.

            If he walked 2.5 to 5 miles total on 2 round trips we can call that ‘less than a few’ and also ‘several’. He didn’t say less than one, nor less than a couple.

          • Oz10: when did he ever say HE walked several miles? Never. He has only ever placed limits on what he considers TOO far for searchers to be walking: “If you can’t make two trips from your car to your solve in several hours, then don’t go.” You are interpreting this as a minimum, and that is a fallacy.

          • excuse me…but worrying about what the minimums are in this case doesn’t seem to carry much weight. I think searchers may be wise to narrow things down from what Fenn has provided and not get too lost in the process.
            Above I mentioned that Oxford’s def. of “few” as a determiner is different than as an adjective. This seems to infer that Fenn is well aware of this fact and was fanning the fire…or maybe he was being straight up and pointing out the difference….maybe.

      • Oz10…exactly(maybe). Given that all of these statements were parsed out over a few years…it is a bit hard to nail down exactly what Fenn meant at the time/s. And, I do believe it is way more than one searcher/group that has done so.Stir in a bit of what Seeker said about “searchers” possibly being on site for other reasons…and perhaps arriving from some other direction I’ll add. Fenn could still make these statements and not be misdirecting. I still take away the idea that the site/target area is much smaller than what most anticipate…and that regular non searcher types frequent the area.
        Finally…that pesky little girl IN India. This is a classic Fenn answer to a less than perfectly worded question. No matter which way one looks at the Q/A… it can be interped in the other. Good stuff! And I seriously doubt there are coords. involved. I’ll just say that my “theory” has the clues closely related…with each one open to one or more pointers. My search area fits into this category with the individual clues easily misconstrued with how one might read/interp. the poem’s words. I understand(not really) why a searcher could walk on by…at any point…because it may be out of place, in the correct order. Now I am dazed…are you?

      • That’s okay Zap, it doesn’t matter and it wasn’t the point above anyway but don’t try to make his statement of ‘less than a few miles’ be 100 feet, that is ridiculous.

        Total miles walked in one afternoon must be more than a couple no matter how you look at it, unless you want it to fit your ‘general solve’.

        • Oz10, while 100′ may seem ridiculous to you how can you say what the minimum is? 1′ is less than a few miles. It doesn’t think that I believe it but there is no statement saying that it is not.

          If I were to guess I would say the minimum is probably 200′ but that would just be a guess. Based on the statements we have heard we cannot make an accurate guess as to the minimum and it would be ridiculous to assume any number as a minimum as a fact IMO.

          • I thought common sense will play a part there and that is the reason why it took TWO trips in one afternoon and not that ff is just lying.

        • Oz10, the walking distance is whatever it is. Forrest didn’t want to tip his hand as to the precise distance, but he probably was concerned about people hiking many miles — 1 way — to their destinations. He didn’t want people walking long distances, especially in bear country. Do I think the chest is 100′ from where he parked? No. But there is nothing he has said that precludes it. And I bet he walked less than a mile 1-way.

          • zaphod73491
            if you look at the forrest scrapbook showing your pond and your ducks, and then you look at it taking the ducks to cage you will know how much your ff walked on these 2 trips

        • I agree with that. Lets say for the sake of argument that the total miles walked that day was 3 miles, one and a half on each trip or 3/4 of a mile each way.

          One mile has 5,280 feet so the chest is at a distance of 3,960 feet from where you can park your car, respectively. Say these are linear feet and there is no shorter (nor longer) way to get there. There might be a bend or a hill but ff went straight there to complete his goal. After all, he said he follow the clues in order when he hid the chest. No sight seeing and no tomfoolery.

          Someone drove out there after solving the first couple clues maybe. Then they got as close as 200′ after all that walking (which by the way 200′ should be within eyesight distance to some feature, marker, blaze…) How many more clues did that searcher got right at this point and what went wrong?

          • To me it doesn’t sound like they ever got to PIBHOB or they did and didn’t realize it. – IMO

            It can be tough to see 20′ in front of you in the forest depending on how thick it is.

          • Oz10: to be honest, I favor a one-way distance much shorter than a mile. I feel the most logical way that “lots” of people have been within 500′ of the treasure is that you can drive within that distance of it.

      • Hi Oz10 – Perhaps you are new to the chase and maybe not. If you are new, you might also want to take into consideration f’s response “if you are walking long distances in search of the treasure, you’re walking too far.”

        IMO, f is telling us that the distance is not far at all and when or if the finder shares the location, it might surprise many by just how close it was from where the sedan was parked.

        • Hear me all, FF was vague (I believe it
          was on purpose). How much distance is a
          “long distance”?

          And let’s get a little more technical now, okay? If you have a solve that focuses
          your SEARCH area to a bit of land about the size of the footprint of a 3,000 sq ft house, then the area to SEARCH is about 50 ft by about 60 ft. It won’t take much walking to SEARCH that area.

          Hiking 5 miles to get to the SEARCH area
          does not constitute walking a long distance
          in search of the treasure, because you
          haven’t started SEARCHING until you get
          to the (small) area that the poem sends
          you to.

          I believe that the poem focuses the search
          area to an area smaller than that house
          footprint. But a hike to get there is still
          involved.

          People underestimate FF. He chooses
          written words more carefully than do most
          of the folks posting on these forums.

          All my opinion.

  44. Is there anyone on here that believes they have solved the poem, and also believes that “where warm waters halt” does not involve water of a warm or hot temperature? If so, I would be interested in hearing what he/she thinks it refers to (other than fishing regulations, inland sea, or lakes, which I have already considered and excluded).

    • Tom B
      I do not know what it is or what is more in a point of my sight just below my research should be an ideal temperature for fishing rainbows near calcareous cave wells with frog bait, good I still do not know right, plus who knows if the ghost gives me a tip I’m looking for him in the stories of his ff, because I think I’ve seen him somewhere

    • I don’t THINK it is warm or hot to the touch. In my solve if I told you what WWWH refers to you could go right there. Once I figured that part out (IMHO), the rest slowly began to fall into place. It took time, you have to study the poem, go the map, study the poem, go to the map, back and forth until all of the pieces fit. Would love to go there and see IF (and a big IF) I’m correct – maybe someday. 🙂
      Good luck everyone, stay safe!

    • As many have pointed out waters halt could refer to frozen water. Combine that with warm as referring to color instead of a temperature. Also the warm colors, orange, yellow, red, are usually signs of caution or warning. So you could see this line of the poem as a warning to avoid yellow snow. Frank Zappa so aptly put it as, “Watch out where the huskies go, and don’t you eat that yellow snow”. But since Alaska isn’t listed as one of the states where the treasure could be I would worry about other animals instead of huskies. I see this line of the poem as another bit of wisdom from Mr Fenn to keep our searches safe and pleasant.

      Just one of my really dumb ideas, if you find this information helpful you’re crazier than I am.

      • JW
        then we are two crazy, you think one way and I another, here is the madness of a player if you search everything knows where to get correct, but there is a problem in this game, your searches are like rules of the game to get you started play, then you ask me?
        You’re crazy, yes I am.
        Your game begins when you are in the location of the 1 poem tip, HAM, as well remember your ff says after finding the correct wwwh you are halfway to your treasures, more because he is throwing all the hunters to the bears near of brown’s house, I thought today I’ll cough my dog’s hairs because it’s very hot, so it gets the lowest temperature and also cooler. (lol).
        So I see the poem and the game so 2.3 and 4 map and start, 1 place and how, 5 and 6 are points in the place.
        Plus the game only starts at the place of search, even if you already know where, how to go on, what is interesting, change the map to geography that already says that it is a place with some interesting geography that ends up distracting the researchers from its field of research .
        because a child can solve or understand the poem, someone has already wondered about it.
        Well I see that life is like a game and the pot is treasure, the one.
        read it as a puzzle like we did in school before, I dropped a chip, read the book and then my poem, read my book again and then my poem and so it goes, as your ff says, so mount my break- head out of my way and throw him on the map, that’s how your ff did with your books to make this book titled Persecution Thrill, Memories
        So make a circle on my map and use it like it’s a radar or let’s just say like you’re a f100 pilot.
        GOOD THIS IS MORE THAN A THOUGHT OF SOMEBODY WHO HAS ALREADY CRAZY ONLY FAIL TO SEE A FASTAMA CALLED SLOANE OR MIKE OR I KNOW THAT WHO.

      • “Waters halt” could indeed refer to freezing, but warm water doesn’t freeze, so I don’t see ice having anything to do with Fenn’s poem.

        • Tom, I agree with you . . . but someone has
          pointed out that “warm” could mean any
          temperature (for water) between the freezing
          temperature and the boiling temperature.

          I never defined it that way. I’m a little more
          “pragmatic”. If it feels HOT (uncomfortably)
          to me, say 180 degrees F, then I don’t call
          that “warm”. And if I put my hand or foot
          into 40 degrees F water, I call that “cold”.

          I think somebody else pointed out that one
          definition of “warm” is “comfortable”. This
          definition does make sense to me. I’m
          thinking of bath water, tears, and other
          bodily fluids when I think of “warm”.

          All my opinion. Yours may differ.

    • Tom B…I can’t say I’ve solved the poem though I do think I understand much of it now…

      I can however show you a WWWH that has nothing to do with water if you wish…email me…

      saemlesls@msn.com

    • Tom—
      Yes. I keep all avenues open— but warm waters could refer to tears. So where do tears halt? Your cheeks? The ground? Tears halt mostly when childhood ends— we cry far less. Just a few examples.

    • Tom, it does involve temperature. Please look up “halt”
      — as well as other poem words (such as “warm”, “waters”,
      etc.) in a dictionary. You might be surprised at the various
      valid definitions you can find, and FF knows this. All IMO.

  45. Tom B, go to http://www.tarryscant.com/search type in places on the home page search line next scroll down to 4th green line answer heading 2649 and read the question and see Fenns answer to it on the right. Now think two dimensions, one is in the degree of 32 wwwh and one is a proclamation of NM Game and fish, but when searching understand you are at the same Rio Bravo, AKA Rio Grande at 32 degrees latitude and the temperature so
    if that does not sink in read TS Elliott quote, fav of Forrest ie in Little Gidding about exploration and revelation ….. suddenly you are on the border of another dimension, another layer of thought, and both are correct. If you do not understand both dimensions and their significance, well you might as well stay home and play Canasta. A small wicker basket in French.

    Did you read Winter Thoughts on this blog, type and search, I have believed in another layer/dimension exists for each and every clue, even the Blaze, but I said Railroad Tracks is one, but there is another much more sublime blaze akin to the stars in his poem.

    TT

    • Imo, there needs to be a good natured name for this type of scenario (one where someone may have taken one too many turns on their way down a rabbit hole).

      It seems like standard practice is too ignore it, but I don’t know if that is helpful to the poster. Or maybe some sort of contest for made-up string theory connections…

      My top of the head entry: FF talks about his fishing hat. See the curve of this creek and how it looks like a cowboy hat? Now, cowboy hats were originally worn in Mexico by peasants and they called them hatos which sounds like gatos which is the Spanish word for cat (which, notice, rhymes with hat). Now, the CATalle Valley in NM has a mean average temperature of 100 degrees in the summer months (FF said he hid the treasure in the summer) and 100 degrees in Celsius is the boiling point of water. Thus, CATalle Valley is wwwh. Boom, mic drop.

      *Note: cowboy hat origins, “hatos”, and CATalle Valley are figments of my imagination. I think Gatos is the actual Spanish word for cat, but I’m not 100% on that.

    • TT
      I understand what you’re trying to say, yet, warm water doesn’t halt at 32 degrees, cold water will begin to halt at 32 degrees.
      Turn your shower on to just the blue setting and if you can assert that is warm, we need to talk about relabelling the world’s faucets, we could make a fortune.

      • W.R. Forrest said “There are many places in the Rocky Mountains where warm waters halt and nearly all of them are North of Santa Fe.” (emphasise NEARLY) “Look at the picture, there are no short-cuts.f”

        What shape are the 4 states left in the hunt, NM, CO, WY and MT they are the big picture that all have BORDERS, and that is the Key, IMO, how many state in US have lines of Latitude as their borders? I just named em and they are shaped like pictures, any questions?

        Why is 90 mentioned so many times in the Thrill Book? Even ref in TFTW, border of next state is ? 90 miles from Santa Fe, at 348 degrees NNW and What is the North Pole? 90 degrees, Texas, Nm and old Mex border all at 32 degrees Latitude and guess what the Longitude is at that Rio Grande/Bravo, same as 90 miles north of Santa Fe, check Google earth for co-ordinates. Something will put an X or + on the big picture and it will absolutely have coordinates within a few feet of the 10X10 chest.

        Helps to know that the TC is lower than 10,200′ why the 200 you ask, because somesearchers have been with in 200′ of the Chest and lots at 500′ near a mountain top? But not on a mountain top why element of WIND.

        TT

        • TT. The poem is supposed to stand on it’s own in guiding one to the treasure. The four states you mention are not defined in the poem. This is something Forrest added later to reduce the search area. I appreciate that you have put a lot of time and effort into longitude, latitude, borders, etc. But, I personally do not see the connections to the poem.

          • Kym i text or email links to myself to save for future reference. U will end up with two of everything just lock one then delete the other. I’m hope that explain that better

        • TT

          Looking at the big picture doesn’t involve looking at something. It’s just an expression to say consider the impact of not just your part but all the parts.

          Let’s look into “There are many places in the Rocky Mountains where warm waters halt and nearly all of them are North of Santa Fe.”
          Then something that can be ruled out for consideration then . A few popular guesses to rule out could be.
          1. NM fishing regulation waters IF there are fewer warm waters North of SF.
          2 Sinks Canyon, there’s only one, so being one there isn’t many.
          3. Glaciers, because there are none S of SF, therefore negating nearly, as there has to be some S of SF.
          4. And so on.
          So what can can make water halt then?
          Confluence of rivers.
          Hot springs where water is warm at someplace between the spring and cold river. Ie firehole bathing spot.
          Fishing areas in the other states thats not described as NM WW, but has similar thoughts… which then could bring back in NM fishing regs plus the other states.
          Or you, freezing water. So why freezing at not boiling. Why freeze and not evavopation or rain?
          Can glaciers be added back here for other reasons, yes.

          So for an easy big picture example then would be the consideration of all potential fishing spots similar to NM regs. And all potential spots in the 4 states would be looking at the big picture.

          For othe simple lunpsum ponderings. Why do you reject the statement of no ciphers are needed?

          • W.R. You are assuming that the warm waters halt north of Santa Fe are all examples of the warm waters that fit the poem. Perhaps in his statement he is lumping together all of the different types of WWH similar to all of the different possible blazes.

          • Tighterfocus,
            See point 4. Etc etc etc.
            Again same question, how many more are there north of SF than south?
            Many more or a few? If a few move on.

        • If youre using Borders as the hint from the book.
          Why not add it to reference of Yogi.
          You’re then looking at the border of Yellowstone. More specifically below the home of Yogi (brown bear) and at the southern edge of Yellowstone is then your search area.
          But then that would be finding HOB before solving the other clues.

          • Yogi’s name was similar to that of contemporary baseball star Yogi Berra, who was known for his amusing quotes, such as “half the lies they tell about me aren’t true.” Yogi’s statements are a lot like ff’s.

          • OS2
            Yes but Im referring to a very specific item and needs a two step explanation, and anymore gives it away. Does it mean anything? Only Fenn knows, but it’s worth exploring.
            I’ve never seen anyone refer to this gem before, so I’ll enjoy this thrill unless someone else knows it and wants to chime in on it.

          • Hi WR, I was only pointing to a joke, but if you want an opinion… yes, that southern border is interesting. I think it even has a road called Border Rd, And east of it is Browns Meadow. On my GE there are 3 pics and if you zoom in, the one at about 44*53’57.16″N, -110*34’56.30″W shows Browns grave. I was once focused on this area …its so near to two oceans… flowing to cold Peace & Warm Atlantic. Also, borders is in the poem — in line 25. Ask a tight focused seamstress or heraldry dictionary to point it out. When you see it, Store #1 will have more meaning.

          • OS2
            I Know the miss flow feeling too well.

            I have a different take on that line all together.

            I think I recall I have something in notes about that field, seemed it was a big discussion long ago, I couldn’t get a bearing on backtracking to a good wwwh or going forward.
            I would encourage you to look further into what you had, if you had and update it if it’s been a while since you looked at the area. If you had to cross a road, you may be further onto something.

            Since then I found the yogi bear referrence from the book. I think its a hint, but I takie it as more a general area to zero in on than an actual nearby TC hint , ie right state. But every time I get closer I then get flipped to a secondary location that is so similar in another state.

          • WR, heres the coordinates corrected for the pic …
            44°03’57.16″N, 110°34’56.30″W
            I couldn’t find the little ‘o’ thingy for degrees, and I had other mistakes in it. I will try and follow your info and see what I come up with.

          • This area is not only prime grizzly territory, but Brown Meadow is up a very long, steep trail. TFTW, IMO, which is too bad, because there’s a cool fire lookout up on one of the mountains nearby. For HOB, I think it would have to be pretty far below the meadow, IMO.

    • Hi FMC: I propose the name “word association football.” Monty Python fans will understand. 😉

  46. If Wyoming is where you believe, think that Indulgence is ensconced, then start with Borders Book store and find those borderline biddies that mark the southern state line at ___ degrees and frame your search starting there and ending WHERE? Work backwards in solving the puzzle and if all 9 clues and all those numerous hint’s work to a “T” you could have found her.

    I do not say any ones solve is wrong, someone could be perfect and find it, but someone has been within 200′ early on but did not know where they were in relation to 9 clues? So why is it at best at 10,200 and not 10,000? Perhaps it would help to find a mountain top 10,700′ since ff says it’s not on a mountain top, but near a mountain top? Surely it makes sense that elevation is an important factor in the finding. Usually there are canyons on the sides of mountains and the wind was disclosed as an element of concern per ff. Why? If indulgence were in a tree stump near the rim of a canyon close to a mountain top…new picture comes into focus. Now where is there an easy safe walk from where your sedan is parked Mr Senior Citizen? Find these conditions and you may be counting your treasure.

    TT

  47. It would be interesting to compile a list of all the possible WWWH that have been discussed to date, here’s a good start:
    1. A place where hot springs enter a river
    2. A place where hot springs enter a lake (or lakes in general)
    3. A place where extinct thermal features exist
    4. A place with geysers present
    5. A place with any other thermal feature
    6. A place where water changes temperature for any number of reasons
    7. An area with a “warm” place name (ie – warm springs, Ojo Caliente)
    8. An area with a “cold” place name (ie – Agua Fria, Glacier National Park)
    9. A place at the edge of civilization (wilderness) (ie – no warm water available from the tap)
    10. A place at the edge of the Yellowstone Caldera
    11. A place on the border of Yellowstone Park
    12. A place related to the New Mexico warm water fishing designation
    13. A place on the continental divide
    14. Metaphorically Relating to death (ie our bodies our mostly water, WWWH is when life halts)
    15. Where water freezes
    16. Where a water body is physically warm
    17. A historical date (the ice age)
    18. A place with travertine present
    19. Not important (The entire poem is just a cryptographic message to decipher coordinates or other information from)
    20. A place where steam ships can go no further up a river
    21. The great salt lake (or other lake with no outlet)
    22. Any water that is not frozen
    23. A place with a historical reference related to warm
    24. A place where two or more warm rivers/streams join and take on a different name (ie Madison Junction)
    25. An abandoned sink next to a cabin (from Dal’s solve “the shaft”)
    26. A train station/depot
    27. Any water in New Mexico not designated “special trout waters”
    28. Glaciers
    29. A mountain top
    30. Water with yellow, red, or orange hues
    31. Place names having to do with a cloud
    32. Where water changes state (ie – liquid to vapor)
    33. Warm water is metaphorical, as is tears
    34. A place where warm water changes directions
    35. An outhouse/toilet
    36. The ocean
    37. Relating to Elevation – (ie – the snow line)
    38. A water color painting (suggested by E.C. Waters)
    39. A web site URL (WWW.)
    40. Where lava halts (ie – Obsidian Cliffs)
    41. In the Freezer
    42. Should be read, “where warm water salt”
    43. A seasonal creek (dry part of the year)
    44. A cemetery

    • Kg: congrats! One of your 44 is exactly right in my opinion. But unfortunately not actionable without the keyword.

    • kg – i can identify with your #3, as mine was a dormant (Soda Butte) geyser ..once upon a time last year

      but i def started to worry slightly once i read your #41 tbh

      ( ..i prob watch too many old Al Pacino movies tho 🙂 )

    • kg, what if “warm waters” could refer to people or other
      mammals? If so, it could be a place where people are
      known to stop for a short while, then resume travel . . .
      a touristy place might qualify, or other place where the
      traveler is halted by an order from an authority . . . it has
      been pointed out that Los Alamos National Laboratory is
      one of these places. Good luck in your solving and searching.

      The above is my opinion.

    • kg,

      ~ A place is an area that is defined by everything in it. A place’s absolute location is defined with latitude and longitude lines.
      ~ A location is the place where a particular point or object exists.

      What are we looking for when it come to wwwh ~ A place or A location?
      Example #13… Is the CD [ if used for the poem as wwh ] a place or a location? imo, it make a difference to how wwh might be understood as to nailing down the first clue.
      Not unlike all the other examples… which are nothing more than a dart toss… Yet, without wwwh as a ‘place’ the other clues could never be combined as to wwwh a ‘location.’
      I think the solution is not to find a certain wwwh as a ‘location’ but, more and understanding of the ‘place’… then the rest of the clues explain the location… hence if you knew what hoB is why be concern about wwwh, [ because you might now be at the correct “needed location” of wwh that is represented as wwwh “place” ]

      Could this be why we won’t know the correct wwwh until the chest is found ~ The other clues might give us the “location” of wwwh [a place, everything in it]… just as long as we can figure out what wwwh is as a “place”?

      LOL Ken, all that crap [um, complicated work] was working on only one cup of coffee… going for number two now.
      CH… be afraid, be very afraid! [ lol, I do have a reputation to keep up, ya know? ]

  48. “Those who solve the first clue are more than half way to the treasure”

    so, more than halfway FROM where? does this suggest a precise location is possible in stanza1 ..or perhaps, once WWWH is located, the other three states are automatically eliminated?

    hmmmm… coffee time!! 🙂

    • java java ! Yes…I believe(why are you staring at me?) that the first clue eliminates the other three states…and then …
      the searcher is in a “state” of….which way now?
      I think(sometimes) that the first stanza is the bread and butter…which tells where/correct one, wwwh.

      • Ken;

        Anyone who picks ANY wwwh as the first clue will be eliminating at least two other states, and probably three. Only if a wwwh flows DOWN, and crosses a border into another state, three will be eliminated. Don’t you agree?

        Picking ANY wwwh does not ensure that IT is the correct one though. Information from another stanza (I believe) is needed to ensure that the CORRECT wwwh is selected – Just my opinion – JDA

        • JDA, this sounds likely to be accurate but just for conversation is it possible that WWH is in Montana and the TC is in Colorado? Likely? no but possible?

          • I would not think so. So, wwwh is in Montana, and we “take it in a canyon down” – How far? ” Not far, but too far to walk.”
            I would:
            #1 – think that NO canyon would (nor could) go “down” all the way from Montana to Colorado
            and #2 – I would think that a distance from Montana to Colorado would definitely be “Too far to walk” – yea, I know – If it is too far to walk, drive or take a plane. Just doesn’t compute to me –

            Highest point I can find on the Montana border – Silver Gate at a bit over 10,000′ – Lowest point above 5000′ = Boulder at 5077′. Distance between the two spots = 416 miles this = a drop in elevation of 10.62′ per mile which = a grade of .20% ( That is point 20% NOT 20%)

            IF it were possible to have a steady grade between these two points – which it is not – – – so a simple answer is no, it is NOT possible from a logical point of view or a physical point of view – but what do I know? NADA – JDA

          • I understand your point JDA and it is correct if we are to assume that it is poem is so straight forward that canyon down actually means that are quest actually physically leads us into that canyon. I’m not sure that it necessarily does but who can say either way?

    • ken – we’re staring atcha coz ya look funny ..nice haircut btw 🙂

      i can agree re: eliminates three states, but can’t shake the fuzzy feeling that stanza1 describes a specific locale

      • CH;
        Stanza 1 MAY describe a specific local – I am pretty sure that it does – but does it describe exactly where and which wwwh location is? I think not. I would look at another stanza for that “hint”. JMO JDA

        • JDA
          if you search for names of ancient cities and ancient civilization or clan you will understand the beginning, so (Indecision is the key to flexibility) so be wise and courageous

      • JDA – you could be right, but mess with the poem at ya own risk i reckon

        Theodore – “kiwi-birds” tend to squark when ya step on ’em, fyi 🙂

        ken – don’t you dare leave me here all alone with Seeker ….NOOOOOOO…!!! 🙁

        • Seeker is harmless Hobbit…he is just…well…
          he complicates things maybe a tiny bit. But his comments are a very good gut check.
          Now…where was I?

    • CH, checking some way way back meanings of halt…
      a rope to lead a horse (later a halter),
      a rope, especially used for hanging malefactors;
      a hangman’s noose.
      a halterman is a hangman (pg 9 & the sheriff?)
      a halter was employed in Fenns jungle entry & exit
      halter, the undeveloped hind wings of flies
      And strangely, halt also so has a connection to half…
      The halt may be a 1/2 way marker.

      But my sense is it is more a watery rope, like the thick braids the little lady tossed back and forth as she led him to the place.

  49. Oz10 said “I thought common sense will play a part there and that is the reason why it took TWO trips in one afternoon and not that ff is just lying.”

    Doesn’t two trips help you more with the max distance than the min? He wouldn’t take two trips in one afternoon if the trips were over a few miles each would he? Taking two 100′ trips is possible though right? Again, IMO he walked more than 100′ but there is no solid min distance just assumptions.

    • Question is though, “What is a few miles? Some would say it is less than five since Forrest has said that a trip of 10 miles is now “Too far to walk,” so one five mile trip there and back = 10 miles – rest and do it again…probably too much, so one can surmise that the one way trip is less than five miles. Would between three and five be doable – possibly, dependent on terrain. My guess is four miles (one way) max…but that is just a guess. 4 miles X 4 trips = 16 miles in an afternoon. We can assume a rest before or after secreting 1/2 of treasure, a rest at the bottom before he starts up again, and a rest as he secrets second half and a LONG rest when he returns – Smiling and laughing all the way. I can picture it now. 🙂 JDA

      • JDA, 16 miles seems like quite a trek for an 80 year old in one afternoon with 8 of those miles carrying over 20 pounds on his back. In any case I’ll give you that as a max distance. Be that as it may we still do not have the facts to define a min distance. If it was a small amount like 200′ it would be hard for him to give us a fact to help us with a min without giving too much away.

        • Aaron – i can only imagine, if Forrest were as incapable of walking 16miles in his 80’s (as you’ve suggested) ,,then there’s every probability that he just hid it in ya mailbox …?

          i mean.. it’s not like he’s walked 90miles to Bozeman or anything, right?

          ( ..oh wait!! ..who were we talkin ’bout again??)
          🙂

      • All in one afternoon, huh JDA? Lol, you as much as anybody knows, you cannot say that. That is your guess, and your opinion. Do you really want to bark up that tree again? (bark, tree, I get it)

        • Like you say charlie that is my GUESS as to a MAXIMUM, and I say that I doubt it. I was just putting a stake in the ground as to MAXIMUM.

          I would ASSUME that it would be less, but I do not know. JDA

          • Hi JDA – So if Forrest told you he owned less than a few home s you would take that to mean up to 16? Or if he told you he had less than a few children, you would think that could mean up to 16? These are just examples but maybe you will get the point. I don’t think you need to fixate on the 4 trips but plain old logic. If Forrest says less than a few miles, a logical person can deduce that he’s talking about the entire journey.

            A lot of people would be hard-pressed to do 16 miles on level ground in an afternoon. Consider f’s age, the weight, and elevation changes in the mountains and it’s blatantly obvious that the distance isn’t far at all and the poem even tells you it isn’t far.

            If you want to keep doing more than 1/2 marathons while hiking, have fun.

    • Aaron, I think that there IS a minimum distance. If people have been within 200′ and 500′ of the treasure, isn’t 200′ a minimum?

      If you are standing in the parking lot – at the point closest to where he secreted the TC, If he secreted it 200′ past the point you are standing, you are within 200′ of the TC (a minimum.)

      If you are at the FAR side of the parking lot, and it is secreted at the same place, you may be 500′ away from the TC. So whether you are standing at the closest place, or the farthest point 200′ is a minimum. Would Forrest secret it THAT close to a parking lot? I personally doubt it. – BUT 200′ appears to ne a minimum – Don’t you think? Just misin’ JDA

      • Haha you reiterated what I said earlier. I don’t even know how this conversation went full circle but yes I also think that the best guess on the min, based on what we know, is 200′.

      • I agree JD. I think 200 feet is a minimum. As far as a maximum, I don’t believe he walked more than a half mile from his car to the hiding place. I have nothing to back that up with, just a feeling.

      • JDA – I agree with your earlier post. It surely was less than 16 miles total when he hid the chest.

        • With all due respect to all above, distance is mute. Consider this, how does one know how far some people have walked to be withing 200′ or so?

          One should consider, not far to walk down the canyon from WWWH and nothing more. There is nothing else in the poem that is relevant to distance.

          Distance is only relevant after one has TC.

          JMO

    • I think everyone needs to stop thinking 2 trips in one afternoon, and more like it was said. 2 trips and done in one afternoon or after noon.
      JDA, your math does not compute, so you may want to refigure your distance since you are saying one means afternoon and not one trip. Since there is no definitive time evening starts, with your figures, and at a nice walking speed up a mountain carrying weight, without rest, you are looking at a time of 8:00p.m.. At the very best for an 80 year old robot of a man that doesn’t get tired. With the human factor of rest, fatigue, and ability, you’re looking at a time of around 10:30p.m. As of 4 miles one way.
      Evening starts at around 6-8p.m., average. So, if f walked briskly up this mountain and through the forest, without being fatigued, carrying weight, I can then, borderline, see him doing this by 8:00p.m. and consider that one afternoon. Your assumption is wrong right from the start, makes me wonder about the rest of your solve. Just pointing out the obvious. Not trying to pick on you, just think we need to be more critical of our individual solves. We should not be guessing, and not be trying to make things fit when they really, with some common sense, don’t fit.
      Average, person walks 2mph on a flat surface, 4mph is very briskly(running walk). Forrest is not average, but neither is his walk.

      • Charlie;

        You make the statement: “Your assumption is wrong right from the start, ” And what assumption did I make
        that was wrong “right from the start”?
        “Q. “Were both trips made on the same day/date?
        A. I made two trips from my car to the hiding place and it was done in one afternoon.” f I am assuming nothing more than what Forrest has said. You choose to interpret these simple words a bit differently than I, and most other searchers, do. That does not make my interpretation wrong.

        Again, I said that I felt that 4 miles one way was the MAXIMUM. Do I think he traveled 4 miles X 4 between 12:01 Noon and even 10:00 PM during July or August? (When the days are longest) Probably not, but I do think it possible. I could be wrong. When Indulgence is found, I guess we can ask Forrest how long it took him. As to being wrong with the rest of my solve, only time will tell. When will you be testing your solve and assumptions that include coordinates created from words? JDA

        • Okay, I see. Believe me, I get the one way of looking at things. It’s just my opinion that we should not limit ourselves when it comes to f’s “double-talk”. I’m not saying 4 miles is wrong, my walk happens to be about 5 miles one way, it’s just the interpretation of things he says. There are two or more ways to look at it, then I will keep in mind that there are 2 or more ways to look at it. Like the first clue being nailed down. Do we just thing we really need to get that one correct, or do we know this and know that a possibility may be that the first clue may have something to do with nails? Like the blaze throwing the searcher off and also an explanation of what a blaze could be. Will we be thrown off the trail or is it something so out of the ordinary that searchers will not see what it is?
          Coordinates did not come from words JDA. The jist of my solve:
          Every line can be broken down by following instructions. Instruction words, within words, letters… along with abbreviations. This leads to seeing that every line can actually be broken down, some more ways that others.
          It also shows that he gave values to letters. Once you figure the letter values, you can plug them into anything really. It also starts to show certain things as coordinates. Like: I can keep my secret where. Get rid of “I” keep “my= my secret where. my sec r et w. my seconds are et w (4th line says three). There are other factors but I’m sure you get it. Don’t know when I will go out, maybe in two weeks. It’s getting cold, but a vacation would be nice. ( you should not have scratched your first solve so early, you may regret it).And no, I did not get my solve from then, had it somewhat before you arrived, just making that clear…Lol, always, good luck JDA.

          • And good luck to you Charlie.

            You say, I should not have scratched my first solve so early. Are you talking about my Anaconda Solve? That wound up on EPA land – doubt that it is there. I may be wrong. I seem to recall that you start off at the hardware store (I believe) in Anaconda? I liked my Warm Springs Creek, starting at the Psych Hospital… down to Anaconda, to the Fish Hatchery (hoB), then into town – Smelter road (No place for meek and heavy loads) – out to the EPA site. One try went south of town – up into the hills, but never could make it work – Maybe you can. – Good Luck JDA

        • charlie – which “mountain” are you talking about?
          ( ..and are you related to Edmund Hillary?? 🙂 )

          but if the average human walk-speed on even(ish) ground ( ..oh let’s say.. a “creek” trail for e.g) is 3.1m/p/h, and one afternoon consists of 6(ish) hours, then the stats suggest that..

          ( ..ummm, where’s that darn calculator!?)

          well.. it’s def more than several, that’s fer certain!
          🙂

          • CH, no way f went 3.1 mph up a mountain or in a forest on average. If he took a horse, then anything is possible, but JDA said 16 miles in one afternoon by foot. That is very unlikely. Even 12 miles would be a stretch. I say, that statement is referring to trips and not the afternoon. Two trips, done in one of those trips,
            which was after noon. F is an early riser, really think he started after 12:00p.m.?
            I’m just saying, best to look into both possibilities.

          • charlie – yes, i do really think he started after 12pm as i simply don’t believe Forrest has lied to searchers for all these years, do you?

            and maybe 16miles is a stretch, none of us know that answer for sure (yet) – but it def sounds like you’ve single-mindedly cracked the poem mate, bravo!! 🙂

            btw, “our Ed” doesn’t like being called sir

  50. I meant no disrespect bert,
    I hope to visit New Zealand someday. (Or even Old Zeeland if you tell me where it is!)
    😉
    -Randawg.

    • oh stop being such a big ninny randawg

      i like your s.o.h and already know ya didn’t mean to suggest that tourists should flippantly squash our beloved kiwi-birds 🙁

      ..don’t worry tho, i’m sure that one-day we’ll both be first on the list to eventually become humans too …just like Goofy 🙂

      ( ..oh wait – is that Pinocchio bashing my mailbox with a baseball-ba[ -end of transmission- ]

  51. Curious Hobbit said “Those who solve the first clue are more than half way to the treasure”

    To me, this is not referring to distance. Rather, this is saying that more than half of the difficulty in solving the poem is in the determination of the physical starting point (I.e., where warm waters halt). In my personal journey to solve the poem, I found this to be accurate.

    • “Those who solve the first clue are more than half way to the treasure”.

      Certainly, those who could solve the first clue have eliminated 3 out of 4 states – so effectively eliminated 75% of the states….which means a person is more than half (50%) way. It’s obvious (and logical) that someone would be more than half way there.

      The real question is: How many people actually “know” they found the first clue? How many people think they have the first clue (and actually have the correct first clue), but move on to other solves after they cannot solve the remainder of the clues?

      It’s funny that some think the journey “get’s easier” as the clues are solved. Regardless of if that was said by FF….if you think it get’s “easier” as you progress, you might want to rethink that conclusion.

      I believe the path is “exponentially” more difficult the farther along you are in solving the clues. The only exception is for the “one” who can crack into ALL aspects of the many tricks / riddles – the problem is it is extremely complicated and it could take hundreds of years for the “one” to come along, spend many hundreds of man-hours to decipher, and actually obtain the “exact” location. IMO

      So, the final portion of the correct solve would be very much like a needle in a haystack. FF said that it was difficult but not impossible – now that is very true. Re-phrasing this, it is NEARLY impossible. IMO

      Lastly, FF made it such that only one person will get the solve. There’s no easy way, there’s no cheating to get there, there’s no short-cut, metal detectors will not help, special equipment will not help….just the right person who figures out the clues and puts in the work AND gets the exact right answer. So stick around….have your children stick around…..and have your grandchildren watch….and their grandchildren……they will be equally puzzled until the ONE comes along. IMO

      There is a better chance of getting hit by lightening….than correctly solving the clues and obtaining the chest. IMO

      Now, back to my morning coffee…..

      Covert One

      • “Knowing is half the battle,” Yo How!
        Is that literal or figurative?
        If your half way there with solving the 1st clue, wouldn’t that too be figuratively as all the work and effort to find it….

      • “…I cannot tell you how many searchers have identified the first clue correctly, but certainly more than several. I cannot imagine anyone finding the treasure without first identifying the starting point, although many seem to be preoccupied with later clues. To me that’s just expensive folly. f”

        Several is defined as “more than two, but not many.” So “more than several,” to me, means that MANY have identified the correct WWWH. I think the majority of those many correctly GUESSED WWWH, but did not put together a successful solve and moved on to different WWWH solves because they did not KNOW they had the correct WWWH.

        In my opinion, and experience, Fenn has provided a means for a searcher to KNOW they have the correct WWWH. I agree that even if a searcher knows WWWH there is still a fair bit of analyzing, thinking, and observing that needs to be done to get to the chest; after all, it’s 10″ x 10″ x 5″ and Fenn has indicated that a CORRECT solve will take a searcher to within “several steps” of the treasure. Assuming an average stride length of 2.5 ft., I would estimate a CORRECT solve would put a searcher in a range of 15 to 20 ft. of the chest.

        In my experience, home of Brown can easily be misidentified which will uncalibrate everything down the line. Also, there’s some wiggle room to misinterpret the blaze which, for me, was expensive folly 🙁

        All that being said, I don’t see the solution as being over-complicated. It is, as Fenn has said, straightforward. Geography is important and being keenly OBSERVANT within the geographic location is also very important. All IMO.

      • Covert One, WWWH could be in one state, with
        the TC in another. So all 4 states are still in play, based only on this fact. Since the Rocky Mountains are pretty vast, it makes (some) sense that the TC is likely to be kinda close to WWWH. But people have mentioned “borders” (the bookstore), as if some kind of border is related . . . perhaps a state border?

        The above is my opinion.

    • CURIOUS, I think you are on the correct path to begin a “correct” solution.

      WWWH has IMO 2 definitions, seems that one definition/location is often found by searchers and is a general solve or guess, funny on page 9 of Thrill Book while sprinkling at Borders Book Store we have those Borderline Biddies, holding up the line at ff’so (and our) expense and an incorrect war, WWI described by ff as the conflict in/of book “For Whom The Bell Tolls” perhaps the Joker of the 5 cards is at work here, and another WWII should exist in your imagination.

      What could be a, the hint? Is it possible? A general solution vs a correct one? I vote for Borders and those tiny tiny itty bitty lines that each of the 4 states declare as their well defined degree called latitude. Any good map has em and Google Earth can pin point coordinates to find a 10’x10′ box anyplace on mother earth using GPS, TRIANGULATION OR TRILATERATION.

      TT

      • Do you not find the Yogi hint interesting?
        If you want to discuss hints, perhaps it’s not the obvious items like borders, but something else, like crossing the street, as Fenn says, what’s that all about?
        Perhaps the recounting of his reading from Fitzgerald isn’t the hint, but Is incorrectly stated to draw attention to this author for the real hint to be found.

      • Tom Terrific – i agree with your opinion re: “general vs correct solve” – maybe there’s a parallel or mirrored solution to the poem locations? ..a decoy at every turn?

        and also suspect that navigation and triangulation is a factor in the puzzle re: “The treasure is out there waiting for the person who can make all the lines cross in the right spot.” ..but that idea also conflicts with ‘no specialised knowlege required’ so.. should “wisdom” also be considered specialised? 🙂

        “The saddest aspect of life right now is that science gathers knowledge faster than society gathers wisdom.”
        – Isaac Asimov

    • Those who solve the first clue are more than halfway to the treasure, metaphorically speaking. Is his full quote. Metaphorically tells me he is literally saying nothing.

  52. Good morning Dal (thanks for hosting this site) and all of you enthusiastic Indulgence hunters/bloggers. What follows is my simplistic first solve of the FF poem. I am sharing it so that I can get feedback and creative discussion before I move on to one of many other possible solves and/or variations thereof. As I have been reviewing this solve (which I put together a few months ago and will just cut and paste into this blog entry) I have had other thoughts that are springing to mind and will try to include them within the original solve—in other words, please pardon any jumps in what follows and/or any repetitive sections. Here goes (from START to END):

    START

    I’m a Noob to this FF treasure hunting party, so forgive my ignorance and/or my repeating of places and ideas regarding clues and possible solves, but I wanted to at least share my first “solve” without any BOTG (Boots On The Ground for you other Noob’s who didn’t know what that meant) experience as well as my chalking it up to grasping at straws.

    I will start with my interpretation of what the 9 clues from the poem are and after the “—–” will be my location pick and/or comments:

    #1 = “Begin it where warm waters halt And take it in the canyon down,”—–(FF has said that this is the first clue as evidenced by the Jesse Mulligan Radio interview from around 9:12 when the interviewer makes a comment and then FF answers around 9:27 through to about 9:40)—-My pick for this is Glacier Lake in Montana

    #2 = “Not far, but too far to walk.”—–to begin at Glacier Lake requires some other mode of transportation to get a searcher to the trail that leads up to said lake (Maybe park at Many Glacier Campground or Ranger station) ADDITIONAL THOUGHTS: You may not need to even go up to the lake, it may be enough to have identified it (and I see now that I say just about the same thing in #3 below)

    #3 = put in below the home of Brown—–the searcher need not go up to Glacier Lake, but rather begin the rest of the searching below the home of Brown. For my HOB I picked the Ptramigan Tunnell for, as legend has it, a grizzly once hibernated inside the tunnel after it was closed off for the winter. ADDITIONAL NOTE – this is the kind of local knowledge and/or tongue in cheek kind of information FF would know/likes to elude to. Also, the tunnel was at least partially enhanced by man so I am not sure if that disqualifies it due to FF comments to not being associated with any structure (however, since I am not saying Indulgence is in the tunnel, maybe it isn’t to be eliminated.)

    #4 = “From there it is no place for the meek,”—–apparently there be grizzlies in them thar woods so beware! 🙂 Also, put on your hiking boots as you have some walking to do, but not too far.

    #5 = “The end is ever drawing nigh;”—–you are almost to the end of your search AND you should go in a left direction from your put in below HOB

    #6 = “There’ll be no paddle up your creek,”—–of the 2 creeks below HOB, Ptarmigan goes right and Wilbur goes left, so follow Wilbur creek ADDITIONAL NOTE – As I have further looked at GE (Google Earth) I think I may like Swiftcurrent Creek better as it fits the “no paddle up your creek” line better, perhaps? Also, you don’t need to go in the water and fight the “swiftcurrent”, hence no paddle needed—simply walk along the side of the creek.

    #7 = “Just heavy loads and water high.”—–look around you and you see some very scenic mountain peaks in Grinnell, Swiftcurrent, Wilbur, and Altyn (NOTE loads is plural and a mountain is massive, so 4 nice mountains make for a nice solve for heavy loads) and in them thar grizzly infested mountains are several lakes (water high).

    #8 = “If you’ve been wise and found the blaze,”—–some nice pictures online of Mount Wilbur in the sunlight and it sure looks ablaze to me, and would more than likely be around for a 1000+ years for future searchers to use to solve the poem.

    #9 – “Look quickly down, your quest to cease,”—–somewhere between your spot on the creek when you can first make out the blaze of the crest of Mount Wilbur, between you and when the mountain begins to steepen, you will find the chest no more than 200-500 feet within the woods?

    I know it is far fetched after about clue number 2 or 3, but what a nice view!

    Keep searching

    END

    ADDITIONAL NOTES: Windmaker Lake = Referenced as a land feature with the “So hear me all and listen good” line?

    Lastly, just wanted to reiterate that this potential area is certainly one I would pick for my final resting place due to the magnificent views afforded as opposed to some of the other end areas I have read about in the blogs, etc. (not intending that to be offensive to anybody else’s solves, just pointing out a big picture ending that IMO FF would like).

    Thanks for reading and commenting.

    • Bowmarc;

      Your solve seems well thought out. Congratulations. The area sounds beautiful – Just the kind of place Forrest might have picked.

      Good luck, once you put BotG. Most of all, Have FUN and TRY to STAY SAFE – JDA

      • Thanks JDA. Unfortunately I won’t go BOTG any time soon for various reasons (and from what I read the Indulgence search season is about to end anyway). Gives us all time to hunker in and do more research / come up with more theories. 🙂

        • There was first snow in some of the Northern states in the search area – snow makes things more difficult.

        • Bowmarc, how well does “canyon down” fit into your solution to the poem?

          Regarding “water high”, I think that FF was
          referring to water that a BOTG searcher would
          see while hiking.

          • Covert One – Thanks for the weather update. 🙂 What is the typical “season” associated with a safe hunt for Indulgence?

            Tighter Focus – The whole area between the mountains I listed is one long stretch of inter-connected canyons (from memory, as I cannot connect to GE at the moment, there is the Ptarmigan Tunnel canyon arm, there is the Glacier Lake arm, and there is the Swiftcurrent/Bullhead Lake arm) with a body or two of water at the mountain end of each separate “arm”. The creeks appear to have a nice red rock base with some having intermittent waterfalls. Again, IMO, the area is visually pleasing to the eye and someplace I can envision FF laying his weary bones to rest. Check it out on GE. As to exactly how well it fits into my solution, it is a canyon with an upper and lower (down) end, one just needs to decide which (if not all) to explore. As stated, the mountains, IMO, qualify as heavy loads (plural) and the bodies of water in the area as the water high from the poem. There are patches of woods and snow throughout the canyons there to marry to the poem as well (brave and in the wood / worth the cold). Somewhere I have a note as to elevation which seems to fit with the FF elevation statement (again from memory as I cannot access my digital notes, Mt. Wilbur peaks somewhere in the 9000′ range, and the surface of Swiftcurrent Lake somewhere around 5000′, making the wooded area between the lake and the peak fit FF’s comment of above 5k and below 10k). I hope I have answered your question?

          • LOL – found my handwritten note about elevation. Mt. Wilbur peaks at 9,321′ and it was actually Windmaker Lake I needed to reference with it’s surface elevation of 5,325′.
            I also forgot to mention that unless the woods are to dense (which I wouldn’t know without BOTG), a searcher may be able to see parts of the bodies of water within the canyon if you are of the opinion that one must. I’m with Santiago that it is not entirely necessary.
            Another thought I just had was a double blaze, with the blaze of the mountain being #1, and perhaps FF marked a search area within the woods to further assist a searcher (Blaze #2)—after all, it is FF’s blaze, so the big picture blaze (mountain) and then his wooded blaze (by marking tree’s with his unique symbol like the one in his garden) can be referenced as a singular blaze.

    • Upon further review of my notes (now that they are accessible), the entire Ptarmigan Tunnel is man made. Sorry for any confusion.

    • you start off with Glacier lake. Where in the poem does it tell you Glacier Lake? Or, are you just picking a spot out of the blue? If so, that is a guess, and already starting out on the wrong foot. Need to solve the poem. Starting with a guess will mean the whole solve is a guess. Also, how do you know those are the clues? Also,also, you still have 2 more stanzas, what about them?
      My advice, put down any maps, find a way to solve the poem. That’s the most important thing. After you solve the poem, see where you are on a map, but the most important thing, “solve the poem”.

        • Spallies, you put a smile on my face this morning…. thank you…
          gotta go, I think I’ll go work on figuring out that poem…. see ya my friend

      • Charlie – My apologies to all as I made an incorrect reference when I said Glacier Lake, which should have been listed as Iceberg Lake, and I can see why you chose to point out that my choice for WWWH seemed arbitrary. Iceberg Lake is north of Mount Wilbur and is therefore more geographically adjacent to my indicated search area than an otherwise non-existent Glacier Lake.

        That being said, I wish the poem was as simple as saying Iceberg Lake is WWWH, and give all of us searchers exact locations for each of the nine clues, as well as specifying which lines are the 9 clues, but it does not (at least not without poetic license). The treasure would have been found long ago if it did either of those things and we all wouldn’t still be pulling out our hair trying to solve it.

        Since the poem does not, I am just like all the other searchers who take a guess (however educated / convoluted / double omegad / scientifically calculated using precise instrumentation / astronomically aligned / historically referenced / Divinely inspired / numerically added up / Ye Olde Dictionaried / etc.) at any of the clues. Seemed to me that a place where liquid water (the Lake part of the Iceberg Lake area) and frozen water (the Iceberg part of the Iceberg Lake area) is as likely a WWWH spot as a confluence of a cold and warm river, a train station, or tears shed at a cemetery (just to name a few other solves for WWWH that have been mentioned).

        As to knowing that they are the 9 clues, with the exception of one, I do not. As stated, FF has definitively stated that “Begin it where warm waters halt” is the first clue (see my original post for the radio interview referenced) so I have no doubt about that. As such, no clues are present in the first stanza, and conversely, since my 9 clues ended in stanza #4, there are no clues in the last 2 stanzas. That is not to say that the debate about what is a clue and what is a hint does not apply to my excluded stanzas for, as my original post says, I think the chest is somewhere in the trees between the lake and the peak of Mount Wilbur, with FF “hinting” at such when he uses the phrase “in the wood” in the last stanza of the poem. I also believe that FF has mentioned that the clues are in order, don’t mess with the poem, don’t discount any of the words, etc., so if he says that WWWH is the first clue then I won’t be looking for any clues in stanza #1, which, IMO, is part of the poetry of the poem. To me, stanza #1 introduces us to the scenario that FF went somewhere by himself with something valuable and hid it and is now, through the poem, hinting at it.

        More specifically:

        As I have gone alone in there (I, FF, have gone into the Rocky Mountains by myself){We all know that Indulgence is hidden in the RM and that was derived from an additional hint given by FF outside of the framework of his poem}

        And with my treasures bold (I, FF, have taken along with me some valuables {no working definition of bold other than to rhyme it with old later in the stanza})

        I can keep my secret where (I, FF, have a spot in the RM’s wherein these valuables will be hidden/stored)

        And hint of riches new and old (I, FF, will provide clues about the whereabouts of these valuables){It is well documented that Indulgence incorporates valuables from many different time periods, including Golden Eagle Coins = an example of new treasure and gold nuggets = example of old treasure}

        Without further belaboring this post in response to your comment, I will let it rest that my listed solve is, like anyone else’s, just a series of guesses and contrary to your seeming assertion otherwise, is more than just a passing glance at the poem, or the shooting of a dart at a map, and writing about it.

        I appreciate your advice, and do plan to further marry my possible solve(s)/guess(es) between the various resources FF has given us and wish you success with your own interpretation(s) and solve(s) of the poem.

        Fun Fact: Until it is found, everything is just a guess. 🙂

          • Oh, and ‘bold’… try reading ‘treasures bold’ as ‘memories vivid.’ Memories so rich, even great writers can only hint at them.

        • Bowmarc, you are missing the point. Is it possible you are reading the poem wrong? The winning solve will have no guessing, so if all you are doing is guessing, you just have a general solve. Why would you want to continue to do what everyone else is doing? “like anyone else’s, just a series of guesses”. Maybe that’s why they haven’t found it either. f has said if you have the coordinates you could go right to the chest. He also said to an email,
          “Just cause you will probably get a laugh…i spent hours last night with those numbers below…i added them, multiplied them, found a pattern, try latitudes, hardshad #, morse code, applied it to the alphabet, searched zip codes, elevations, phone codes etc…dreamt of numbers and woke up this morning and said. If Hegben was that deep it would reach China and have a drainage hole, all the water would leak out and if you did plunk it at Hegbens depth then I could just walk around and find it. Giggles.
          • Here’s a lady who may find the treasure because she has done the math and knows exactly where it is”.
          Sounds like there is numbers to me. You have none, just guess after guess. You asked for comments, this is mine. I’m not going to tell you to guess your way to the chest, nice places, or whatever, I’ll tell you what I think. No guessing, find a way to solve the poem, look for instructions. Instruction words, in words, letters, etc… and solve the poem. Nothing will be a guess, but if that is what you think, have at it. Look, I can make a lot of places sound like good starting places, but without showing how the poem led me there, it’s just another guess. It may be a correct guess, always that chance, but it leads to further guessing, and I know I won’t just stumble upon the chest that way. It takes an “X” on a map.
          Just take the chest and go in piece, is the end for a lot of solves, the wording, but what if he is saying chest is see hest? What if you put the words “and go” in the word “piece”. What if all that says something else, could that be a way to solve the poem, or a guess?
          Just take the ( see hest) p-a-g-e-n-o-a-d-c-e. What if that told you to look on page 133. There’s a hest: two people can keep a secret if one of them is dead. This could be one way to solve the poem, and eliminate guessing. If you follow his instructions, you will not be guessing, you will be sure. Hard to leave one’s house with a bunch of guesses and be confident.
          The hardest thing is to wipe away 1-2 years of research and possibilities, and start over, I know. But ask yourself, are you guessing and is it the way to solve? If you think so, then go for it, never know.
          I just see the poem playing more of a factor, and the confidence I need to tell me I’m not guessing.

          • OS2 – I’m glad you liked my post.

            Charlie – Thanks again for your input. As to the numeric references you have listed, IMO, FF was being facetious in his commenting/replies.

            He was also being honest when he stated that if someone had the coordinates, they could go right to the chest—that is not the same as saying that the poem yields coordinates that will take you right to the chest. He was a pilot so a comment about coordinates is probably second nature.

            As to the “X” comment, I have commented about this once before and feel there is something to it based upon at least two comments FF has made—you’ll have to dig around to find that post if it is something you are interested in.

            If I ever go BOTG, there will always be some trepidation, but with or without finding Indulgence, like so many others, I will have a grand experience in the great outdoors to talk about which is at the heart of FF intentions for TTOTC.

            Again, thanks for commenting and sharing your thoughts and I will consider them as I add information to my other solves/patterns of thinking. I hope that you, as well, consider some of the counterpoints I have made here as well.

          • Bow, I only wish you happy journeys. Nobody knows for sure, so time will tell. We don’t learn anything without the critiques. Mine being the guessing that has been going on since I’ve been doing this.(Feb.2011). But, I hear what you’re saying, and noted. At least tell me you are in Montana.lol.:) good luck always…

  53. I’m going to list several coordinates that seem interesting to me through my research. While I’ve been at the chase for several years, I have not been to these locations. If you are nearby and want to try – best of luck.

    Not sharing why these are related to the chase, but here they are:

    N 37° 14’ 19.67”
    W 107° 54’ 31.64”

    N 37° 09’ 08.02”
    W 107° 53’ 06.64”

    • Covert One, each of those looks like “close proximaty” to a
      human trail. If those locations are where you think FF hid
      the treasure chest, I’d like to know what any of the “connections” are. My solution to the poem takes me
      hundreds of miles from either of those locations. Good luck.

      All IMO.

    • Covert One – I just mapped your coords. One is 8 minutes (by car) from my house (and 3 minutes from my workplace), the other is 16 minutes from home. Pretty familiar with both areas. Not seeing any connections but if the TC is this close to my backyard I’m going to need CPR and defibrillation! Not to discount anything as we often don’t see what is right in front of us. Or behind us for that matter.

  54. At The Top – “In my opinion, and experience, Fenn has provided a means for a searcher to KNOW they have the correct WWWH.”

    I agree, and chuckle at suggestion that only hidey has meaning while wwwh was mere location of convenience. I think that wwwh, hoB, and blaze are all significant ‘things’ to FF and…unique. If we consider generic, specific, and unique as potential descriptions to these things, where generic has many, specific has several, and unique has one, then wwwh, hoB, and blaze become…obvious…when grouped into solve, IMO. However, ungrouped (if that be a word) these same things past by as mere ‘tourist’ curiosities due to their uniqueness. In this manner, wwwh, hoB, and blaze remain under searcher radar until united by clever FF…

    • Until someone finds the treasure they will not know for sure they have discovered the first clue. FF

      • Chris – a classic ATF comment that is nearly obvious, but becomes fuzzy in time…this ATF is now a couple yrs old, back when few knew that wwwh was clue #1. I find it quite amusing how many searchers interpret some poem words as extreme metaphors while other poem words as nearly verbatim. Like most, I’m into blaze, hoB, and wwwh as the big 3 locations, but I’m baffled why most think wwwh is some type of natural water feature (spring, geyser, river convergence, etc.) which I think is too…literal. One of the few words I’ll accept at face value is gold=gold.

  55. So, I go to bed at night and let my imagination run wild with warm waters halt. I’ve dreamed; of roads at 68 – 72 degrees running in a Canyon, of Ski lodges on the Canyon slope going down to a creek bed, of “one” road leading into a Canyon where one wouldn’t be able to take a warm shower, of all the people that have been 200-500 feet from the chest and walk right by 7 clues, of children who might need a little help with the final steps. Here is my best guess with Warm Waters Halt: It is bundled up with “take it in the Canyon down, not far but too far to walk,” and must be tied to “home of brown.” In retrospect, after finding the correct Canyon, one will realize that this place has only a parking lot, close to a creek, without the joy of “warm water” in which they can camp and shower in. JMHO

  56. wwwh to me is where the warm water from a creek meets with freezing water of a river imo

    • Frank;

      Why would the water in the river have to be freezing? In summer. there are almost no (I know of none) rivers that are freezing. A bit chilly, possibly, but certainly not freezing. JDA

      • Come on JDA – you know what I mean I was just trying to make it easer to understand – I don’t think that melting snow and ice in a river is just chilly its cold enough to kill you and that’s where wwwh imo

    • Frank,

      IMO, it’s the other way around, most creeks start up high, and are cold from thaws, rivers generally warmer. :o)

      • Charlie – to me it all depends where warm water from the creek is coming from it doesn’t have to come straight from the river

  57. Has anybody looked at WWWH this way before?…..

    Begin it where warm waters halt

    Be-gin it wear warm water salt

    Be (gin) = (Spirited), wear warm (clothes?) to the place you are going, and somewhere where warm waters halt and turn to salt? Waters and halt put together sounds like water salt. A composite of some sort, like a literal mineral deposit. I don’t mean to over complicate it but this is how my mind works. Any input would be appreciated. Name calling is welcomed too.

    • The chemistry angle is interesting. Some years ago someone played with the halt/salt sound but I didn’t pay attention to it. I think Im gonna use your name next time I need to create a password.

    • Begin it w (here), here is the instruction. Gives you Begin wit.
      warm waters (and the letter “h” ) alt(alternate. Gives you: Begin with warm water salt.
      Answer= Epsom.
      Begin with Epsom…

  58. Just a heads up – we’re doing something a little new at warmwatersfound dot com – I’m calling it WWWH of the Week and it’s (hopefully) going to be kind of like a groupthink armchair solve play-along.

    I say hopefully because if no one participates, it’s just me going through it by myself which is certainly less fun.

    You won’t be giving anything away unless I randomly happened to pick your secret WWWH – it’s just a fun exercise. “You don’t get better in the game; you get better in practice.” – Possibly someone wise (or maybe I just made it up).

  59. As I have gone alone in there ‘And’ with my treasures bold {comma}

    Is it just me… or does this sound like two different times?
    As I “have” gone alone in there… { meaning a prior time before the hiding of the chest } “And” { another time } with ‘my “treasures”‘ bold, {Yet still prior to the hiding of the chest.} I mean, if all this stanza really means is fenn hid the chest, why ask the question in stanza 5 as to why he must go an “leave” his trove…? A bit redundant for a poem that ‘every word was deliberate’ and risky to discount words…

    Some may think this relates to the chest, yet, treasure[s] is plural. Can anyone find an ATF comment where fenn refers to the chest in the plural usage? I haven’t been able to. It seems to me if we can understand why fenn might have chose “treasures” vs treasure we might be able to understand where “In there” may refer to as a location, and / or wwwh.
    The again, it could refer to “home” of Brown.

    • Try reading it as if he’s skinny-dipping in some obscure hot spring.

      (I don’t really think this is his intent.)

    • Seeker. At some point I did a focus on this in similarity to you. The 4 word references being the same thing or different things ( chest, treasures, trove, gold) and the plurality of one word and possibly the plurality of 2 of them (treasures/trove).

      I thought of Treasures and Trove being the sum of all the parts that will be obtained by the finder, IMO .

      I think “The Chest” is what he has given as the list of contents in the chest . IMO .

      I think ,”Give you title to the Gold” , is that “saved especially for the finder” comment. I think this because there is much more in the chest than gold. So, to me the ‘title to the gold’ indicates something that is gold specific not in the chest itself. Me thinks it is another item/object that the finder must also venture to after finding the chest and following the instructions found in the chest is what is brave and in the wood and worth the cold entails is.. IMO .

      The 4 different words describing a perceived same thing lead me to think these 4 description references may just not be 4 of the same 4 but 2 different ones expressed in 4 as different descriptions? Title to the gold is a key trigger for me in this thinking. IMO .

      Just some thoughts of opinion.

      • Hello Alsetenash. It is an interesting thought about instructions found in the chest, but I have to wonder something. If Mr. Fenn pulled out the I.O.U. note for the reasons he did, as well as, the monetary money, would it be the same concerns for a note being left?

        • Pdenver. Good points. Yes, IOU is no good after the originator passes, as he said. He does have his autobiography in there. So, a detailed map of a secret location is possible ( two can keep a secret if..) . Also there is also Trusts set up and managed for unlimited of years, insured too! Just saying. Title to the gold is ( saved especially for the finder) possibly something very interesting. I dunno, just pure speculation on my part. Trusts can stand the test of time until title transfer. Just saying . IMO .

          • Pdenver. I don’t know all about Trusts but I do know they can be managed indefinitely by what’re chosen entity specified by a persons Will . Corporations, banks etc.. So, time length is by what is stated by the original person of title. So, yes it is possible . It just matters what is written in it and organized. Many a lawyers would be handling that I would think. IMO . Just some stuff I looked into about potential ” title ” possibilities. IMO .

      • (Second try.) If Mr. Fenn pulled out the I.O.U., and the monetary money for the reasons that he did, would leaving a note in the treasure chest with instructions have the same reasons?

          • Hello Alsetenash. This is true, but I’d like to offer other definitions of the word “title” to be considered.

          • (Second try.) Alsetenash, this is true, but I’d like to offer other definitions to the word “title” to be considered.

          • Pdenver. For sure there are many other possible ‘title’ meanings. I have a couple potentials in meaning. I dunno if any of mine are correct of course. All I do is try to have something to go on lol.

          • Pdenver. Yep, have to find WWWH or stay home lol. I see a lot of folks see the first stanza as a hint to WWWH. I don’t see it there at all. I see the hint/reference to WWWH in the last stanza.

          • Hello Alsetenash. I, too, thought I saw a hint in the first stanza to suggest a general area to WWWH. I thought it was in, “As I have gone alone in there,” with emphasis on “alone”.

          • (Second try.) I thought there was a hint in the first stanza to help identify a general area of WWWH, too; “As I have gone alone in there,” with emphasis on “alone”.

          • Pdenver. I never have seen it that way but I do understand people have. It is before “begin it WWWH…” . In part why I think it’s in the last stanza is this, but not limited to this, is the temperature words. We have Warm and Cold. Ok seems maybe simplistic but just for comparison sake, look at the first and last for comparison sake. Warm ( comfortable) and ‘ worth the cold’ . Just something I see . Then I look deeper into this stanza.

            Where (temperature) Warm (Comfortable) waters halt, is worth the (Temperature) cold. Not messing with it here, just my style of connecting dots of focus. Two temperatures of allegory. Hints not clues .IMO. So contiguous need not apply. Imo .

            Just thoughts of opinion.

          • This makes me think of the Boiling River. When I went into the cold Gardner River in Yellowstone my effort of fighting the current was worth the cold when wading to where the warm Boiling River spilled in.

      • Which brings me to this you mentioned : “As I have gone alone in there ‘And’ with my treasures bold {comma}”

        “Is it just me… or does this sound like two different times?”

        To me this is ” title to the gold”. This is the ” secret where” . It is the WWWH to me.

        Eluditory quote:

        Forrest gets mail #9

        Do expect that people will somehow *know* for sure once they have found the first clue?

        “No, many people have found the first clue but they didn’t know it. Until someone finds the treasure they will not know for sure that they have discovered the first clue.”

        • Poem:
          With my treasureS
          Mail9
          Until someone finds the treasure

          Why isn’t in mail plural?

          • Sry, cooking and burned typing finger, so tried short Q.
            In the poem he went with treasureS, plural.
            In mail9 he say “Until someone finds the treasure . ..”
            He doesn’t say treasureS,
            So why the difference? Should the poem and response match?

          • WR. Figured that was what you meant but wanted to be sure.

            In line with my thinking; in the mail #9 he is speaking of the treasure chest, therefore it’s singular. IMO . The plurality of treasures in the poem could be all inclusive trove ,meaning treasureS. With all words being ‘deliberate’ in the poem and clues being contiguous; there would have to be a specific start and end line of the 9 clues. This being said, I look at the before start line of clues and end line of my established 9 clues. So, first stanza is before first clue line in stanza 2 and that is where the plural ‘treasures’ is.

            So my first clue starts at ‘Begin it wwwh’ and ends at ‘ to cease”. The singular ‘chest’ immediately follows in next sentence after cease because the clues are about finding the chest location. After this follows ‘trove’ which is an all inclusive word of the plural word ‘ treasureS’ . Then comes the 4th referenced word of ”gold’ ,

            So when he was asked the question it was about one of the clues about the chest, which is singular- treasure chest. IMO .

          • Alsetenash
            I can see your rationale, the trove can go either way, for me it’s all inclusive therefore singular. The title to the gold is odd imo because why just title to gold and not the rest of the items, chest various jewels… and that something special?
            I believe the gold is just a filler word to rhym with cold, otherwise why title to just gold and not the jewels?

            I dispute the clues are contiguous. This to me seems it was taken out of context to how Genn responded to the specific question of the location/clues existing.
            To me it seemed he is saying the clue #- and location #- is what is contiguous, not the overall location points being contiguous.

          • WR. Ya, the only title mention is to gold which had caused me to ponder, why not treasures or trove. Only other side thought I had on it was maybe just to use a word for it not to be repeating . His pattern is non dupliticus in referencing ‘it’ . IMO .

            Just unsure thoughts of opinion.

            You said:

            “To me it seemed he is saying the clue #- and location #- is what is contiguous, not the overall location points being contiguous”.

            Yes, I agree that is possible. IMO.

          • My take on the difference Has been a bit difficult to form in words so hopefully the example will show.

            As I have gone alone in there
            (Where did you go alone?)
            (Here) and with my treasures bold

            No chest, no multiple trips, just explaining where there is.

          • Wait, wait wait……what is south of the bowl in his bathroom??..is that paper on floor? A white piece of paper? What sb is that?

        • Alsetenash,
          Your example e-mail quote is exactly what I’m talking about. I haven’t seen fenn use the word “treasures” with an S in any after the fact comments or Q&A etc. when referring to the chest.
          It just seem strange that he wrote it in the poem. I’m going with the assumption that multiple meanings and word usages are at play here. Which might mean, the trove itself, and / or a second type of treasure; as to mean, important to the one who possesses it… in this case fenn, or someone he took to the hidey space in the past.

          But I have a different twist on “title” This might be fenn actually giving us ~ the / a ~ location. Could wwh have a title? Home of Brown [ capitalized ] could be a title or a name give as a title to it… such as YS National Park?… in which hoBrown might refers to the “title” of the “first national park.”

          IF “treasures” are meant for different reasons… and IF… another knew of the location, then the obvious conclusion would be someone who fenn has mentioned in the book, that is now past on, would have known of this location…. Subtle hint? or too much analyzing?

          As W.R. mentioned..Gold in the poem doesn’t mention all the other items in the chest [ which the book explains of ] Gold can also mean; Yellow or ‘title’ without having to capitalize it [gold] because Brown is the clue and yellow the answer… hence riche[s] new and old.
          We also have warm as comfortable [ a possible reference to color ] and yellow as a color, with Brown as a color, all leading to…”I give you “title” to the gold.

          This line of thinking might give a reasonable thought to; ‘know where to start,’ – ‘need to start at the beginning,’ – ‘what took me so long?’

          Just theories… But in my mind the ‘whole’ poem should be able to tell us all we need to know… without throwing darts.

          • Seeker. This does seem like too much analyzing to me, but maybe that’s because i’ve had two beers…

          • Seeker. This poem really is very much architectural , huh! Many sums in its parts creating the whole thing lol. Every word is deliberate, so the meanings are very much specific and synergetic. The difficulty is the simple wording of his meanings….just not so simple for me….grr! How often ever is gold with an (s) at the end..it’s naturally singular and plural in speak and sort of same for trove unless describing many of many a trove . Treasure(s) bold is plural but chest is singular.

            This ,to me ,points to the same line of difficulty as WWWH. Waters is pluralized. Not water but waters!! Why and what? Not treasure but treasures. Why and What? Maybe they are related closley to meaning what they are. We won’t know for sure if we have the right WWWH until we find the chest. Is title to the gold mean the same as WWWH and treasures as plural? Their commonality is plural. I dunno….hurts my brain today.

            Just my opinion.

          • “We won’t know for sure if we have the right WWWH until we find the chest.”
            Not sure if that’s the “exact” quote? But I can see how that one would work.

          • This is the quote I did quote above already:

            Forrest gets mail #9

            Do expect that people will somehow *know* for sure once they have found the first clue?

            “No, many people have found the first clue but they didn’t know it. Until someone finds the treasure they will not know for sure that they have discovered the first clue.”

          • I like this analysis. Some other things to think about. The poem was not titled yet we have the words title to the gold in the poem which could have a couple of meanings. The title of the poem could be perceived as “to the gold”. And the title of the first national park with the color gold matching yellow.

    • Seeker;

      For quite some time now (most of this year, after the winter recess) I have felt that this line does, in fact, refer to different times.

      “As I have gone alone in there…” might refer to a time when Forrest went ALONE to this special spot, when he was a boy.

      “AND (another time later in life – like when he secreted Indulgence) with my treasures bold…” – AND with the knowlege (no d) and experiences I have gained over the intervening years, take this knowlege and experience with me back to this “special place”.

      “I can keep my secret where…” I (Forrest) can keep it a secret, all of the wonderful experiences I had at this “special place”..

      “And hint of riches new and old.” Through my memoirs and the autobiography included in Indulgence, I can hint of the many memories, both those of childhood, and some from a later time in my life, that I remember having created here in this very “Special place”.

      If only the hills could talk, what tales they would have to tell. I think that the place that Indulgence is at, also has many tales to tell. Tales of it’s early youth, Tales of when it was nothing more than bubbling magma, to a time it was an inland sea, to a time it was nothing but sand dunes, to a time that glaciers carved the valley itself, and a time when the mountains rose…”And hint of riches new and old.” Who Knows? JDA

    • Ahem, cough, cough… I had an explanation for treasures (plural) bold, but I got put in moderation for it. This is my first post since, so those big muddy feet might stomp on me again…

      • Dang it,… I hit ‘cancel reply”….. but it posted anyhow. So maybe this is goodby….

        • OS2, I hope this won’t be the case. There have been discussions about different meanings of words, and one was amniotic fluid. I’d like to suggest by using your thoughts, along with this particular word and its meaning, and using some imagination, perhaps it could be a birth of a nation.

          This is an opinion, offered as a thought.

        • I’ll save you the effort WR, I said I thought treasures could be something else… memories, experiences, etc, but I didn’t clarify that the poet would have to have given the word dual meaning, one being the moderators, the other being mine. And because the meanings didn’t match, I was accused of calling Mr. Fenn a liar… so I was moderated. My own inarticulacy. Don’t offend the doorman, he’s very literal. I’m a a little indecisive and flexible.

    • Seeker,
      IMO, you’re on the right track with “two different times”, but I don’t believe that’s the whole of what the first stanza tells us.

      IMO, the first two lines in the poem should be analyzed as a complete thought with the caveat that you mentioned: treasures is plural.

      My interpretation of the first stanza has been pretty consistent over the years, and it is that, regarding the first two lines, Forrest is hinting at two locations where he’s gone alone to both with his treasures bold. IMO, he’s hinting at the beginning and the and of the poem’s path (treasures, and riches new and old).

      IMO, “riches new” is the TC, and ‘riches old’ signifies very fond memories from long ago, and “riches new and old” both correlate, IMO, to two very special places or locations that happen to be the beginning and end of the poem’s path.

      Note, too, in the first stanza that “secret”, unlike “treasures” and “riches”, is not plural. Since we know the TC’s location is a secret only Forrest knows, where, when, and/or how did he disclose or hint about the ‘riches old’ location? This question presumes my interpretations (guesses) of the first stanza are correct and, of course, no searcher KNOWS anything about the poem until the TC is found, so caveat emptor.

      Just some thoughts.
      Joe

      • Just wanted to correct something in the 4th paragraph above:

        Where I use the word “correlate”, I should have said “can be correlated”. as the first stanza on its own is more of a preamble for the rest of the poem, IMO.

        Joe.

      • Sorry, but one more note about the 4th paragraph in my coment above:

        IMO, ‘riches old’ is a very special place/spot, but it is not the beginning of the poem’s path, as I alluded. ‘Riches old’ gets you into the ballpark, and the poem guides you to the actual start point of the poem’s path, IMO. I’m adding this because what I stated in the 4th para was not an accurate reflection of my interpretation – FYI.

        Joe

    • That is what I have brought up in a couple of post. He put the two statements in the sentence out of order to make it more confusing I believe. The two statements in the sentence would sound more correct if he would have said I went in with my treasures bold as I have gone alone in there. Either way it is separate occasions.

      Good point about plural treasures. If I were to guess I would say it has to do with different types of treasure. Treasure with memories attached and the autobiography and treasure of monetary value = treasures IMO.

    • Seeker – old could mean the original valuables of the location that FF has gone back to alone, and the new is the chest and its contents that he has added to said location. As to the old valuables, it could be as simple as a majestic view of the surrounding area (where he can see animals and pines, etc.—just not smell pinyon nuts if I remember the information correctly) that he is now adding to with his chest of memories he has collected through the years while away from said special place. That being said, it is possible he is describing 2 different trips. IMP

  60. Seeker ….good question/s. It certainly could mean more than one time…depending on what the reader interprets this line to mean. It seems that the place/location was special enough that Fenn must have visited more than just the act of hiding the treasure. So…in that case it could be said pre- hide(how many times?) and two times to hide would make it “several”/ a few. Those words again. The pre-hide times could be referenced as memory times…which could be called treasures. Just a thought or two to ponder. I do not believe that line is exclusive to the treasure….but definitely points me in a particular direction/location. I think it nails down the first clue/second clue…and points right at HOB.

    • Ken,
      Lots of WhatIf’s… But why, if this is the case for treasure to be plural in usage.
      I get the thought fenn’s original intent was to stay… whether he had to make too trips for that as well is only assumed to be for the weight. I also can see treasures to be memories in fenn’s last moments [ in the original intent ] But not likely after the many years of changing the poem to be ‘just right’ [ he ruined the original plan; hence why use treasure[s] now?]
      I just can’t help to think treasures is so simplified. While it might not be a clue that gets one closer to the hidey space, It’s not unlike waters vs. water, and seems to be a reason for it’s pluralizing. IF fenn stated “with my ‘treasure’ bold” it would make sense… as to chest and trove. However he used the word treasures; to be more than one, by word usage… Could there be a connect in the subtle hints that help with a ‘clue’? where to start? etc.

      When you, I, or anyone else reads the poem we see waters and water as a more than likely two different places/location/interpretation for the simple fact of the S. I’m just pondering what other treasure[s] we should be thinking about and understand and why………….or even, if there is anything to think about and understand. [it could be just a simple meaning of memories, but I’m not buying into that simplistic thought, just yet, in a poem designed to lead the reader to a million plus and a ‘special’ location].

      • Seeker…understandable to question plural vs. singular. I maintain that the 1st stanza is the bread and butter…meaning that (imo) this stanza eludes to a specific location that nails down the 1st clue.
        By pluralizing “treasure”…and utilizing “…riches new and old.” a reader/searcher could interpret this to mean more than just memories and chest as treasures. It may be possible that this specific location has/had a lot more going on at earlier times. This could tie in well with later parts of poem as well.

      • kens – once i had a fleeting moment of self-deluded wisdom, and considered “alone” to refer to a book authored by W.Churchill, and “riches old/new” to describe an historical town/city ..as a pre-cursor to WWWH

        way up there in beautiful MT, next to Missouri River, there’re two towns called Winston and Canton – not saying it’s thee stanza1 start-point, but rather an e.g of how S1 might work in relation to WWWH

        Seeks – have been attempting to be very very afraid, but nuthin so far (sorry) – maybe next week tho 🙂

      • Seeker,

        It is possible that my treasures is only referring to his autobiography. His memories, his life, his treasures.

        I am more interested in the word alone in the first stanza. Sure he has likely gone to this place by himself before but that may not be the meaning for alone in the poem. When he went with his treasures he had to carry it, so is this place somewhere he would go just to sit and enjoy and not carry anything like a fishing pole?

  61. “Went is the past tense of go. Gone is the past participle of go. If you aren’t sure whether to use gone or went, remember that gone always needs an auxiliary verb before it (has, have, had, is, am, are, was, were, be), but went doesn’t. I could have gone to the store yesterday.
    Past Participles show something that started in the past, but continues until now”.

  62. There is record snow in Northern Montana. Anyone know if there is snow in Northern Yellowstone or southern Montana?

    • Yellowstone webcam for North Entrance Electric Peak gate – shows wet roads, some puddling of water but I did not see any snow on or off road at 11:32 mountain time per that webcam. If going there, would suggest icy roads might be a concern more than roads, at present… have not checked how cold temps are at night to guess if that water will freeze overnight on the roads there. Unsettled autumn weather seems on the menu this year, in the western half of the nation, anyway. Caution and safety first don’t sound like they would fit in a treasure hunt, but he/she who avoids playing slip-n-slide on icy roads, lives to hunt another day, lol. Please be safe out there, fennatics and others. 🙂

  63. Forrest had IMO taken his 80 year old father, in there, his secret where, remember when I almost got booted off the blogs for saying this?

    Two can keep his secret where if one of them is dead and is part of ff’s treasure-s where? In there. That time frame is easy to calculate because William Marvin Fenn was 80 years old in 1983, and Brother Skipper died in late 70’s

    Ask yourself if you know where you were on your birthday in 1983?

    Now where was he in 83, with his Dad?

    TT

  64. Dal do you know where Skippy’s grave site is, was he cremated? Is there an epitaph?

    TT

    • I thought his ashes were scattered somewhere in Colorado, and the plaque next to parents? I could be wrong.

      • Hi Jdiggins – If you own TFTW, read the first chapter again. Forrest clearly tells us where Skippy is buried. I’ve seen this question arise on different sites and it amazes me how people jump to conclusions without looking at what is in front of them.

  65. Sometimes people have a grave marker, and a memorial/epitaph but they were actually cremated and family either keeps ashes or buries them or scatters them on favorite place. So just asking which is the case, and explained why Forrest knew that an 80 year old could walk to his special place.

    TT

    • Looking back at the answer SL didn’t link directly to this question thread for the reaponse.
      I believe this is important so wanted to respond connected to the Q.
      To answer this question, you need to realize that the normal answer given is incorrect. The answer that is being sought for this riddle question is nobody, because he is above ground.
      However.
      Who is buried in Grants tomb?
      Answer is, Grant of course.
      One Definition of buried:
      to cover in order to conceal from sight:
      Example, She buried the card in the deck.
      So Grant IS buried in Grants tomb because he is concealed from sight.

      If the question was, who is buried in Stalin’s tomb? Then the only answer is nobody, because his body is on display.

      • Sorry to get so technical, but Stalin’s body is not on display—-Lenin’s is. Stalin’s was on display unitl 1961 but is now buried within the walls of the Kremlin.

      • I looked up entombed in the dictionary,
        A synonym of it is bury, seems it is a full circle

    • Above ground, yes.
      Buried under cement, yes.
      Buried has an odd usage. Hence why Fenn doesn’t want to say buried, only hidden.
      People tend to think buried in dirt.
      But the TC could be buried under rocks, buried in a log (I buried that a.c. in that stump good). Or just easily said “hidden”

  66. All this is my opinion based on my discoveries:

    Where warm waters halt was not what originally attracted Forrest to his special area. He discovered it and then he explored it, probably photographed it, camped out there and made a map of it. And this all happened before there was Google Earth to assist anyone in finding it. My guess is that the area itself is what is magnificent and not the place where warm waters halt. He needed to create a starting point. Since he spent so much time in Yellowstone, he probably snickered at how difficult this one clue would be for searchers. There are hundreds or maybe thousands of places which might qualify. Lots of rabbit holes.

    • It is the easiest clue. I don’t think he was so centered around warm waters halt. More likely the blaze, that seems to be the place, in the center of the poem, where he throws us off. Suggest it being something totally out of the ordinary and not the usual markings, signs, or whatever goes with the traditional definition of blaze. The central spot of the chase. Remember, if you know where the home of Brown is, why worry about where warm waters halt? And, the only important clue is the last one. Also, we know the 1st clue is line 5, but you can’t solve the first clue with just line 5, suggest that warm waters halt is a reference to more than one thing. It will be a collaboration of things f has commented on. Plus, others have already solved for it, probably not too difficult or a center piece.

  67. for me where warm waters halt is 2 bodys of water- one is where warm water meets with another freezing body of water – the other water high is a direction this is just an opinion

    • Frank

      I am thinking differently. I see a warm water creek ending or halting at a larger body of colder water, and 2 other water courses flow into that body of water also.

      There is a marker at this location which is amazing. If I showed you what I am researching, you would be very excited like I am. I now believe I have located the blaze, and it is not small.

      • good for you Franklin – im glad things are going your way – I do agree with you that the blaze is not small thanks for your reply and hang in there good luck to you — frank

  68. I seem to recall that earlier this year Forrest said that he did not put the chest in water. Now I cannot find this comment. Does anyone know where I could find that comment?

    • In the SAFETY FIRST tab (far right under the picture at the top of this page), Joe.

      “The treasure chest is not under water, nor is it near the Rio Grande River. It is not necessary to move large rocks or climb up or down a steep precipice, and it is not under a man-made object.” ff

    • FF didn’t say that it wasn’t in water. He said it wasn’t “under” water. Note the subtle difference…

  69. where warm waters halt:
    where warm waters end.
    where warm waters cease to move.
    where warm waters cease to flow.
    where warm waters either pool up or dry out.
    where warm waters come to a standstill.

    When thinking about where warm waters halt, one cannot logically assume that cold waters begin. There may not be any cold waters, just the halting of warm ones. One might also rule out hot springs; as hot waters are not warm waters.

    • When was the last time you visited hot springs other than around geysers? They are not necessarily hot.

      Another to think about where water flows is not necessarily cold. 🙂

      • Perhaps… I was just trying to flesh out what halt could mean. And taking Fenn to be very precise with his words, I think that warm is a very peculiar word to describe a natural body of water…

        • More than one side to every story. We eventually all return to dust. Lots of variables out (in) there.

          Each person must take their own path. Some chose to keep things simple.

          Forrest taught “imagination is better knowlege”.

          Perhaps elemental offerings of earth and water briefly “halt” life’s flow…May cause a lot of turbulence.

          Perhaps that is not imaginative enough though… 😉

        • Imperfekt;

          The water(s) of any small shallow stream, will always be warmer than those of a river or larger stream. The sun can heat up the small stream to a deeper level than it can the deeper waters of a big stream or river, so WWWH MAY have nothing to do with the waters coming from a “hot” or “warm” geyser – but I wouldn’t discount anything this early in the game. JDA

          • always??

            not many things are always.

            not sure this is one of them.

            guess it doesn’t make a difference.

    • There are hot spring pools that don’t go anywhere but up and down. Regulated by the underground geothermal pressure. As sometimes many pools are connected underground, the pressure is released by the draining of other pools. So conceivably one pool could stay warm forever and never drain out but down. That came from my brainy cousin the geologist. The warm water would halt there. just sayin

  70. I don’t know if it’s been mentioned before, but what if the water is doing the halting of the searcher, not the water itself “halting?” So, we need to find a road or path that dead ends when it reaches a body of water, and from that point, maybe it Ts at another path that runs parallel with the body of water, and then we take it in the canyon down. This may answer why “halt” and “walk don’t rhyme: it’s a clue that the searcher is “halting” then “walking.”

    • Sikeston,

      I might be inclined to think that were warm waters halt could be in a basin in the mountains. I believe water could enter these basins into natural lakes.

      CharlieM

    • Someone posted something similar here before. Warm waters halting tourist was the theory. In Yellowstone it is hard to drive more than a few miles without warm water sites halting tourist to stop and take a look.

    • Should the waters be halting the searcher… is there a reason for fenn to have the searcher stop? That sounds to me like… begin and stop in the same spot.
      We still have the conundrum, “And take it in the canyon down” So, we have stopped… what is actually going into the canyon? Us or the waters.
      I get what your saying… but I need a reason for wwh to be something more than just a blockage of a path, to be the clue we need to nail down or stay home, idea.
      And why, we would need to go back to clue 1 [wwwh] if we couldn’t find the chest… If wwh is a blockage of the beginning of the path? It seems to me we could/ and would, just go back to the start of the canyon, right?

      Just dissecting a thought process… not discrediting the thought.

      • Here’s another way to think about my idea: There are times when rivers and streams flood a road or path when the river runs perpendicular to the path. This especially happens when snow melts off mountains in Spring or Summer. So, what “where warm waters halt” could mean is that you have come to place that has become impassable, so you halt (and momentary pause). This moment of halting is where the chase begins.

        You then “chase” this rushing melted water down stream into a canyon.

        This idea also lends credence to the idea that the chase is “time sensitive” and the “warm water halting” can only be discovered in certain times of the year.

        • That would mean the path to move on to, the second clue, would have to be block ever year or season [ regardless of a road, or trail etc. ]

          Again, I am seeing the thought process… a place that can discovered by that interpretation to a specific wwh. [ a periodic happening ]
          Kinda like me saying… begin it where lights come on that don’t annoy you. [ the Smoky Mountains firefly / lightening-bug phenomenon ].

          But why would we need to go back to that “clue” if all we really need to do is, go back to the canyon or where the rushing waters go to, not from – if we don’t find the chest?
          That suggestion from fenn seems to be fennology 101… we need to start, again, at that first clue. It doesn’t seem to matter if all we’re doing is figuring out what is happening at wwwh and more like; ok we found wwwh and now we avoid it because it stops us.

          I like the attempt/thought to narrow down a wwh. But to be honest, this particular thought doesn’t give a reason to return to it and start over again… if we need to. Does it matter if there are 10 different paths to get to, or around, or drive around to the next clue? [assuming the next clue is a canyon].

          • My interpretation of Fenn’s statement of “going back to the begininning” if you don’t find the chest is that you likely got the wrong wwwh. Try a different one. So, my idea still works.

            To put it one more way, let’s use the example we’ve heard about the German soldiers halting. What if the line read “Begin it where German soldiers halt.” My immediate reaction is to imagine a checkpoint where I’m being stopped. If I want to avoid that area, I would take an alternate route.

            So, maybe there’s a place on the map that impedes our journey that marks the starting point of the chase.

            Bottom line, I’m just trying to think of different ways we can interpret that first line since it’s so important and the warm springs/confluence/named places theories haven’t worked to this point.

          • Sikeston…great ideas as to Fenn’s comment ” If you don’t know where it is, go back to the beginning.”
            I’ll add that perhaps the problem is not the incorrect wwh…but could be an error with, beginning it or taking it from the wrong spot.
            My theory has an impediment at that juncture that causes a choice of sorts. That’s what caught my eye.

  71. That is a very interesting take on wwh, opening up what ff has said that the poem is straight forward but needs to be interpreted with imagination. This makes the starting point that much harder to find, unless the real start is somewhere else in the poem, leaving what ff said, that begin it at wwh, still the first clue but not actually the physical start location. Hmmm

    • Agreed Sikeston and James, that’s a clever interpretation… WWWH may be “where warm waters halt you”… IMHO if it were meant like that, it would lead me to think the starting point is hoB. where, chronologically it would read:

      put in below the home of Brown, where warm waters have halted you(r car?) and take it in the canyon down… ?

      • Imperfekt,

        Ok I have to ask the same question, why would we need to go back to the first clue if we didn’t find the chest [ that doesn’t sound like a mapping of the path, but an actual search, because we can “find” the chest on a map, right? ] So, if we are actual starting point is any later clue… why is fenn so adamant about about the first clues or we have nothing, and go back to that clue if all that clue does is block a path.

        I mean, many would think the next step is ‘take it in the canyon down… why go back to wwwh?

        • I don’t think this theory has anything to do with blocking your path. It is a matter of finding a spot that warm water features halt tourist. From there following the canyon down. If you are unsuccessful go back to the first clue. IMO if you follow this theory it means simply either finding another WWWH or start again at yours and do not go as far down the canyon, or find another canyon down.

        • seeker, I think the way I put it was ‘if we were to go on the wwwh halting you’ … but the punctuation of the poem makes everything before Put In one sentence. Perhaps everything from “begin it” to “too far to walk.” is just instructions on finding the starting line of the race (hoB)? It would make ff correct when he said the clues are in order in the poem, imo.

          • Ok, Imperifk,
            I wrote a response above before reading this one… Basically stanza’s 2 first sentence is all combine [ don’t care how many clues are in that sentence that give you an answer ]
            And your next “step” is to hoB…
            That kinda gives me a better understanding of your full thought process. Clues are clues, points are points, type of thinking IF that is what ya meant.
            [ lol how many clues does it take to get an answer? I should listen to myself once in a while…]

            Thanks for clearing that up.

    • James,
      I and others have the same thoughts WWWH is the first clue, but, as you said; ‘unless the real start is somewhere else in the poem’
      So I’m curious to what or where in the poem your thoughts go to?
      Should this line of thinking be correct, it does help eliminate the guess work for the correct first clue’s location… or at the least… narrow it down to a few choices compared to thousands. But, if we need to decipher that as well, isn’t it a clue because it does get us closer to the chest than just, ‘in the mountains N.of SF.’?

      The one thought that pops into my head [ in this line of thing ] The place we need to start, must be connected to wwwh in such a way, that without it, wwh has no meaning/reason to be the first clue, or clue needed to be nailed down. Another thought, within the poem is a [ don’t like the use this word ] a riddle of sorts. We need to figure that out to locate the “first clue” reference.
      Basically saying… the poem has all the information to find the chest, idea, and the poem tells us how to decipher the clues.

      • Seeker. This goes along with my theory that Home of Brown is the first clue to be solved, although where warm waters halt is the first clue encountered in the poem and the starting point of the map. Where warm waters halt is necessary, in my opinion, to confirm your selection of Home of Brown. In other words, if your selection for Home of Brown cannot be connected by a canyon to a place where warm waters halt, then you need to look elsewhere. This is not “reverse engineering “ the poem as some suggest, and does not reorder the linearity of the poem clues.

      • The poem is located in TTOTC book, so while it is said by ff not to mess with the poem, it’s my belief that we need the book to help interpret the poem. When I said agreed that WWWH might be the first clue, it might not be the starting place, I refer back to the first stanza. “As I have gone alone in there”, is referenced in the book, ff’s story about going alone in the graveyard and the drawing of him sitting on a tombstone. The other grave reference is the drawing on him at the French soldier’s tombstone and that phrase written on it, but ff couldn’t remember the soldiers name except it had an “X” in it. Hmmm. So, ‘If, after I depart this vale, you ever remember me and have thought to please my ghost, forgive some sinner and wink your eye at some homely girl.’-H. L. Mencken quote, what if that helps, a gravesite location that helps to identify ff’s starting place? Maybe a smiling outlaw(forgive a sinner) or an outlaw woman? The point is to ID which WWH we should start at.
        Adding to this is the strange story about ff using his thumbs to block out parts of whole cities. One might wonder if this exercise is needed on the poem also.

        • Interesting take James. What made you state “but ff couldn’t remember the soldiers name except it had an “X” in it” I didn’t see anything like that in that chapter.

        • James. Are you suggesting that where warm waters halt is a cemetery? I find this an intriguing possibility.

          • Begin it where life ends… warm waters[body]. and take it in the canyon down referring to ceremony, not far, but to far to walk… on foot in the grave, idea… put in below the hoB, earth, the end is near, no paddle of that famus creek, or between a rock [ headstone ] and a hard place [ bottom of the grave ]
            creek a narrow passage, hlawh… a ton of dirt and tears of sorrow…

            The first stanza can imply death and burial as a starting point to be a grave yard… a place that fenn did go alone in there… but where?
            The cemetery near the family home? can this idea, related to something else that is similar? like a battle field? memorial? etc. Could the relationship be related to ‘brave and ‘in the wood’ to be a reference to a geographical area such as “coffin mountain” line of thinking.

            The again, maybe there is information need to be seen, observed at a certain cemetery or single grave-site that helps. Just because all the information to “find the chest” is in the poem, doesn’t really say all the information to find a clue or another reference of the poem is not somewhere else… { i don’t believe that, but it might be possible }. As far as the theory goes, there are many words in the poem that might indicate a grave, death etc. …from “gone” -to- “cold”, and even “in the wood” in theory.

            The thought is an older idea, but maybe a fresh look with new eyes might produce something… I gave this idea up, because of the other holes that kept popping up.

          • Hi Seeker – In the latest article that Dal shared this morning, Forrest stated that the words in the poem are in plain English and mean exactly what they say. It appears that everyone has been overcooking the poem and getting the same result.

        • James Kruse –

          I don’t think we have met yet. If you are new on the board welcome to the nuthouse.

          There have been several reasons that chasers have sought out graveyards over the years. For me I was answering the question, Where do I go Alone?

          On my map I have gold stars at all the small airports in the 4 states. Sometimes those little airports or landing strips are near a graveyard. Sometime those graveyards have memorials to soldiers. Sometimes Viet Nam soldiers.

          On such case is in Montana. Take a look at Glacier Park airport and the proximaty to Glacier memorial Gardens.

          It’s romantic I realize, but I can see Fenn flying up there to fish and stopping to visit the grave of a friend or fellow soldier/flyer.

          Lugnutz

  72. imperfekt said:
    “yes, IMO if we worked as a team it would’ve been found long ago. But most are secretive, I’ve learned… and for good reason, I suppose.”

    I agree and believe that working together with equally enthusiastic searchers may be the only way to solve this.

    • Well, I think the team thoery would’ve yielded the treasure by now – I totally understand why people don’t want to share their WWWH or possible solves. Personally, I’ve admitted more than once that my first BOTG will be at Brown’s Canyon national monument. I think I have two possible solves for that location. I know that several people have already searched there, however Fenn said several people have been within 500 feet also, so perhaps there’s some overlooking going on… I’m saying that Warm springs with a canyon named Brown directly to the south of them, PLUS a put-in on the southern end of Browns canyon screams “too obvious, but start here anyway!” to me, in my opinion.

      • I understand why people have a hard time forming a team. People are very confident about their solve and some think that they will be able to find it on their own. There is also a trust issue. Also, not wanting to split the $$. IMO.

        I have a solve that I think is very good right now. Just because I think it is great doesn’t mean that I couldn’t use help with it I feel.

        As to searching areas that others have been I suppose it depends on how large you feel the blaze is. If it isn’t that large then others could miss it and walk by the treasure. Who knows too how thorough of a search was done.

        • The only way I believe that a group of searchers to find the treasure $$ would have to be split through a legal contract, that would also include the costs of retrieving it.

          I might be inclined to share the treasure on a minimal bases if let’s say being phsyically unable to retrieve the treasure, or not able to because of extreme distance or no vehicle.

          If I truly believe I know where the wwh, the HoB and have a very firm solve and share it with others would be no benefit to me as someone would get there before me. It simply would be a give away of the treasure and no longer a chase.

          As I believe in my solve I can’t move away from wwwh and the HoB as it fits the rest of the poem including the blaze. I did use a little imagination with wwwh and immediately found a very solid HoB, what I am not fully sure of is the blaze.

          My wwh is some what high in the mountains and there is indeed a canyon right next to wwh.

          All IMHO
          CharlieM

          • Understood Charlie, in the end it may be our us against everyone else mentality that causes FF’s statement “I’m looking a hundred years down the road, maybe a thousand years down the road. ” to be true. I hope I am wrong. I want to see it found in my lifetime.

      • “I’m not flippant about this. It’s not something somebody is going to be able to do on spring break or a Sunday afternoon picnic. I’m looking a hundred years down the road, maybe a thousand years down the road. ****People don’t understand that.”****“Whoever finds the treasure will mostly earn it with their imagination. ***I have done only a few things in my life that were truly planned. Hiding the treasure chest is one of them.”* -f

  73. Ok WWWH, are searchers truly understanding how that happens?
    Yes, searchers have given Forrest the solve for the first two clues and gone by the other seven, but did they give him the whole solve for WWWH or did they guess – understand only part of it, since it could be maybe a two part answer. Forrest might of considered if they said one part of it and since that part is in “close proximity” of the other that they had the WWWH solve, but maybe not the true answer to WWWH that he wanted.

    Now ” what if ” the “word” that is key can help with leading you to one of the parts of WWWH, as to how? or where? or maybe both? Are you thinking what is he talking about? Well if WWWH clue solve was easy then more searchers would be starting there.
    Does it matter if you have the answer to both parts? I guess “no” if Forrest thinks one is a good enough answer, but knowing- understanding them both just might help with understanding why Forrest wants you to begin “it” there, and then not go by the other seven clues.
    Forrest has hinted over the years what WWWH is ( not the location of it ), so understanding that part might help with the “many” that are in the Rocky Mountains – most north of Santa Fe. Now if you knew that the “word” that is key would help narrow down the “many” to just a “couple” and with the right research and a good map those “couple” can be narrowed down to “one” as along as you keep in mind that ” word ” when researching.

    I’m not going to debate with anyone on what I have come to understand because it has taken me years to get to this point. This as always is “food for thought” when I post, but just maybe if understood correctly it can help “map the path” to indulgence. My belief is….it will.

    Good luck to all.
    Bur

    • Hey-O James –

      Great Divide Basin in southern Wyoming has been suggested and looked at. It’s a huge endorheic basin, like Great Salt Lake in Utah (rain falling there can’t get to any sea or ocean – no rivers exit). I can’t find a precise enough spot in there to serve as an actual point of departure. There is, though, a Brown Canyon on the SE rim (just north of Rawlins Wyo), with a Dry Lake and a Separation Lake in close proximity. I couldn’t make it “go”, but you could take a look.

      Prehistoric lake/sea beds are very imprecise as current geographic locations because their extent and shorelines changed more than once in major ways over the course of their existence. But you could select a known place where marine fossils have been found in modern times, there are many of those in the search area.

      Jake

  74. The map of identified WWWH at warmwatersfound dot com has been updated and can be found here:

    http://www.warmwatersfound.com/gallery/image/8-warm-waters-found-as-of-102617-55/

    We are up to 55 identified WWWH. I encourage everyone to help grow the list by posting your (discarded) WWWH. I’ll also say that in compiling what’s on the site so far, I’ve been exposed to a lot of new ways of thinking about WWWH and also about the remaining clues. FWIW, I think it is a good exercise to look at some of the identified WWWH and go through the thought process linked to (if there is one) or to pull up the WWWH in GE or wherever and see how far you can get with the clues. Share your thoughts in the thread and let’s get some discussion going. Practice over the winter months so you’ll be ready to go when the snows melt and the game begins again.

    Cheers,

    FMC

    • JIM

      This is great and much better than my Google maps method.

      Is this easy for me to do so I can provide a clickable movable map of my solves?

      Lugnutz

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