Home of Brown…


This is for a discussion about “the home of Brown” in Forrest’s poem.

Got an HOB that didn’t work out…or maybe you need an HOB for a certain area…or perhaps you have an idea that needs some fleshing out..

This is the place to discuss all things HOB…


418 thoughts on “Home of Brown…

  1. Brown is capitalized…
    I don’t think it’s brown trout because it is not a specific noun.
    What do you guys think it is?

    • Hi Cheyenne: agreed that it’s not brown trout. I believe it’s capitalized because it is referring to a geographic place that has a proper name (and not a proper name that includes the word Brown).

      • Zap –

        I like that thinking. For example Bunsen Peak or any other named peak. He’s letting us know that the place has a proper name.

        I did find a new Home actually owned by a Brown and so I do need to explore that further. Oh well.


      • Hi Lug: thanks. You just have to be mindful of the dividing line between common knowledge and specialized knowledge. To me, this means a clue solution based on anyone named Meek or Brown is out the window, but I don’t thoroughly discredit such a solution if it fits a candidate solution. But if a solution *starts* there, it’s dead on arrival on my estimation.

      • Agreed, but I would say Dual structure, one for Brown Trout and one for a very famous Brown, of Colorado fame, she was Unsinkable in the Titanic disaster, Browns Canyon is just below Buena Vista, Co and the Arkansas River runs through it. Awesome rafting and Kayaking too, in my younger days when there was traffic across the Royal Gorge..


    • Hey Cheyenne, if you google images of “crayons”, you will see that where the color of the crayon is written on the side of the crayon, sometimes it is capitalized and sometimes it is lower case, depending upon brand. But even the most famous brand, Crayola, sometimes capitalizes it and other times doesn’t capitalize it,… depending upon what specific set of crayons it is. Mostly it appears to be lower case, but can be upper case. So, just the color “brown / Brown” can be capitalized, or not, and can mean nothing more than the color of brown. This is just my opinion, but it works for me.

      Safety First … Always


    • “Home” can be the place where someone or something lives, but it can also be a place of origin. Brown may refer to brown trout and could possibly be capitalized because it is the home of “Big” brown trout. Brown trout are not native to the US. They were brought here from Germany. I think it could be possible that Fenn is referring not only the location of big brown trout, but one of the locations where they were first stocked- their “home”. I like this assumption because it narrows the possibilities. A lot of rivers and lakes have brown trout, but not all of them are rivers or lakes where they were first stocked. My opinion for what it is worth.

      • I have thought about the first Brown trout stocking as HoB as well strait. FF suggest though that we cannot find this without finding the first clue right? Just an opinion but I’m not sure that FF designed this so that we could pin point a HoB so easily.

    • The first word in a sentence is capitalized, just a thought.. doubtful there’s anything to it but I haven’t seen it mentioned

      • This is true, but also the first letter of every line in the poem is capitalized (This is a norman convention used by many poem writers), not just the first letter in a sentence – hoB is the exception – Brown is the last word – OOPS. JDA

  2. This is my best idea on interpreting “home of Brown” – I think it is Barns Hole on the Madison River.

    I think by “Brown,” Fenn is personifying Bessie, his “fawn-colored” cow that he loved, as “Brown.” He refers to her, and her home, a barn, several times in his book TTOTC.

    I know, you don’t think there is a blaze in that area. I have an idea for that too, but this is not the page for that.

    Home of Brown=A barn, namely, “Barn”s Hole on the Madison.

    Don’t let logic distract you from the poem, imagination is more important than knowledge.


    • Barns Hole is named for the old Barns that used to be in hat area, it is right inside the entrance from West Yellowstone. An area Fenn would be intimately familiar with.

    • In support, I think Fenn gave us an example of him doing this in The Totem Cafe Caper, “when the owner gave Frosty an inch, he thought he’d become a ruler, Frosty I mean….The Ruler thought both excuses were pretty lame…”

  3. Zap ~ “A big part of successful problem solving is deciding which pieces of information are not relevant.”
    I agree. That is why all the ATF are important as to, not dismissing one over another just by picking and choosing what works for your thoughts / solve. And I agree that, what we knew of from the start can’t override or undermine or dismiss the ATF as well. For me the use of the ATF must be all or none, if using as a check and balance of what we did know of at the start- in conjunction to – what is factual now. ex. wwwh is the actual first “clue” eliminating a “clue” [ one of 9] in stanza 1, but doesn’t eliminate stanza 1 as important.

    • I know some time back one of the regulars here put together a checklist gauntlet of tests. Since that time, additional ATF remarks have been made that should be appended (e.g. not under water, not near the Rio Grande, not under a manmade object, no need to move heavy rocks). It’s actually a quite lengthy list of prohibitions now.

  4. I never post, but just to throw this out there: Bb if you look up the letter b on Wikipedia the Phoenician pictograph (I don’t know what to call it) is called “bet” and the actual image is a “house”. The Egyptian hieroglyph is a foot and calf. The rune for B is Beorc and it means “birch”.

    Just the letter B has a lot to think about, and it may be capitalized simply to draw attention to that or it could be in combination with several other ways to look at it that are necessary to pin point a location.

    Just food for thought.

    • I have read thoughts of B for a musical note, but your post I don’t think has been mentioned. Thanks for that.
      Is this ‘the Becky” who asked about the “blaze” in the poem or only in the field Q&A?

      • Hi Seeker, I’m just Becky the up-to-now lurker 🙂 Guess what I just now found after I posted that:
        Burke (Forrest’s middle name)
        Irish (of Anglo-Norman origin): habitational name from Burgh in Suffolk, England. This is named with Old English burh ‘fortification’, ‘fortified manor’. Norwegian: Americanized form of Børke, a habitational name from any of eight farms in southeastern Norway, named with Old Norse birki ‘birch wood

        So there’s another possible connection with the Rune for B

        • Welcome to the madhouse. My only advice is don’t read my posts… read the poem… which i think we’re not reading correctly. lol.

          Example; Not far, but to far to walk. Many want this to be a distance, and that does sound logical. But I’ll attempt to type out a different reading of it…
          Not far, [ in a normal tone of voice ] But [ as in arguing against doing something ] too far to walk [ as saying there’s another option ]

          Is fenn saying – not far- but no need to go or walk there at all-?- stay where you are. So can the waters be actually putting in below hoB were we are standing at or the waters stop there, below the hoB and “put in” mean the location of wwh? This would mean “take it in” as a view of what to observe over where to go…

          LOL – I did advise not to read my posts, right?
          But I like the way you think…

          Loco, Goofy and others are probably saying… great a new comer, and the first blogger she meet is Seeker… that poor girl!

          Like fenn said, read the blogs for entertainment. That there [ fenn’s words ] is the best advise I can give you.

          • @Becky,

            “Loco, Goofy and others are probably saying… great a new comer, and the first blogger she meet is Seeker… that poor girl!”

            Welcome to chase….poor girl! Sorry Old Yeller met ya at the door. He chews through the leash all the time. 🙂

          • Seeker, on the contrary, I love your posts. I’ve been involved with the Chase for three years and so I’ve gotten to know and love many of the bright minds that post here and elsewhere.
            I’m glad you like the way I think. Maybe I’ll share some more of my craziness. It hasn’t done me much good so far and I can always use a fresh perspective.

          • Hello Seeker. ‘…the first blogger she meet is Seeker…’? I’ll agree with the ‘poor girl’. 🙂

  5. My last $0.02 on my HOB—the Lamar Ranger Station

    Here’s an FF quote from MysteriousWritings.com:


    “The clues did not exist when I was a kid but most of the places the clues refer to did. I think they might still exist in 100 years but the geography probably will change before we reach the next millennia. The Rocky mountains are still moving and associated physical changes will surely have an impact. If you are in the year 3,009 it will be more difficult for you to find the treasure.f”

    FF said the “clues” did not exist when he was a kid because he wrote them when he was an adult.

    But, most of the “places” he refers to did exist.

    For example, the home of “Brown” didn’t exist when he was a kid, but the Lamar Buffalo Ranch did, and will continue to exist for hundreds of years (hopefully). https://www.nps.gov/yell/learn/historyculture/lamarbuffaloranch.htm

    FF said some clues “might still exist in 100 years”, but are at the mercy of natural geographical changes (I think this refers to any canyons, homes, blazes, woods, etc.)

    The Lamar Ranger Station, for example, could remain a clue for 100 years as long as it wasn’t devastated by wildfires or an apocalyptic Yellowstone eruption.

    The treasure, on the other hand, could remain in it’s location for 2000+ years, but it would be more difficult to find because it would be hidden by geographical/topographical changes, and the geographical clues would become less relevant and noticeable over time.

    I don’t think Forrest ever said the clues or the clues locations would remain for thousands of years.

    A solid bronze chest, however, could last in it’s location for 10,000 years.

    Just my opinions. Good luck all!

    • AllenK,
      I’m not sure if I agree with you on; “FF said **some** clues “might still exist in 100 years”, However I do see how you came to that conclusion as to fenn’s wording; “most of the clues” meaning that most is only some of the clues. Unless one clue is not a place at all.

      Still my thoughts go to fenn thinking “down the road,” to mean the clues in the poem. If a fire can, or could have already, taken out a clue or clues… that thought of down the road for 100, 1000, years doesn’t seem well thought out.
      I guess I keep asking myself, how much research would someone in 3009 need to do if a clue or clues were to disappear yesterday.

      “I’m not flippant about this. It’s not something somebody is going to be able to do on spring break or a Sunday afternoon picnic. I’m looking a hundred years down the road, maybe a thousand years down the road. People don’t understand that.”

      Maybe this is what fenn meant by; “People don’t understand that.” ?

      But you did put another thought in my head… let ya know how that turns out if it hold water.

    • Thanks AllenK for your opinions. I disagree with the hoB not existing when he was a kid. It would be a far stretch to put in below without a Brown from long ago. Just my opinion as I am still fleshing this one out.

      • I think the “home of Brown” existed when he was a kid, but I think he nicknamed it when he was older.

        In other words, the “clue” didn’t exist when he was a kid, but the home did.

        In my solve, the Home of Brown is the Lamar Ranger Station, and that has existed since 1906.

  6. I don’t think we are supposed to pay as much attention to the letter which is capitalized as much as where it is placed. Because there is capital involved as well as a Capitol.

  7. New topic (still HOB): Does ‘Home of Brown’ hold more meaning as a singular thing or do you view it as possibly plural, specifically the word Brown? I have a couple ideas with trout and in that case HOB would mean plural, not singular. I can see the case for a singular place/building/grave for a person, but for other brown things plural seems to keep popping up…here is my latest…this is copied from an official gov website, it was interesting to me as all listed seem to share some shade of brown: “…sanctuary for more than 330 species of animals, including bison, black-footed ferrets, deer, coyotes, bald eagles and burrowing owls.” I will confirm the where if someone correctly guesses where I got this…the spot (and website) also have ‘warm waters’…I just saw this, didn’t find any other clues for this spot, but it triggered the thought about singular/plural. What say ye o blogodytes? Brown=singular or plural, and why? or does it matter at all? If your answer involves some form of ‘the rest of the poem confirms my HOB’ and that is all you can say, please don’t bother…explain it please

    • Sherif: I don’t know about anyone else, but your AOL links are apparently not viewable by anyone who isn’t an AOL member. (Question: AOL is still an ISP? Last time I used them I had a 300-baud dial-up modem!)

  8. There are many of all the twist andt urns but i think i will share a few words that have been heavy on my mind mr Fenns treasure is in the field of dreams not yours or mine but his as a advid searcher that has viewed new mexico montana yellow stone colorado wyomining to many travels to mention and fun on every adventure a writer might start with the first word he thinks of so the pen takes him to his minds eye and here we are in the center of the storm tracking a quest of freedoms orry i spelt that wrong but free we are and MR FEnn is a part of the reason why so ty sir but the beauty around the induldgence must have the reason why we must think of this on our adventure good luck to all make sure you take a candle and a blanket if your venturing out this winter and a lighter and stick matches be safe alli ran into a masonic gold symbol that was a central fun for the day please be safe stay warm just rambling jb

    • Good thoughts JB! I was JB too – before I married L. (smiley face). I also think that F’s rainbow includes significant people/events/things in F’s life as well. That is where the importance of imagination comes into play for me. IMO, the clues take us to places that, symbolically, are important to F. The journey he takes us on is his rainbow. The hiding place is just the end of that rainbow. And to me, the end is symbolically significant as well. Keep posting, JB. I don’t post often, but I am listening.

      • The “boys” back home told me…(But I don’t know if I can trust them)……Tell really means to count….used in a sentence like a bank teller. Now the word good…..means math…..I sure everyone probably already knew that. BUT it was new to me.

        I was never very good in schoolin… that is why I went into sherifing.

  9. Home of Brown- good question. Grizzly dens in dense wooded Northern 30-60 degree slope about 8000 feet in upper half of mountains. So below half way down a northern slope 10000 foot mountain.
    Well no help there. Like if one of his fathers cabins was acquired from
    Mr. Brown. Only FF would know that answer. Its probably what a kid would say Home of Brown is Mr. Browns house. Which could have come from somewhere in the West Yellowstone area. I still think brown trout.

  10. I have come across some more browns. One Brown in particular was interesting a woman in Pueblo donated her natural blond hair to the war effort. Her hair was the perfect shade for making cross hairs. The bombers particularly used these……

    • Wow – that’s definitely one of the oddest things (in the best possible way) I’ve learned in the course of the Chase.

      I just marked Nov 22 as Mary Babnik Brown Day on my calendar – thanks mosby!


    • I remember a long time ago a TV segment with a man who raised black widow spiders in fish tanks in his basement. Their web threads were used for cross hairs in scopes. Might have been 60 Minutes or a like type show. I thought human hair was too thick or something.

    • Bt the way, the German version of Brown is Braun…as in New Braunfels, Texas. There was a such a man in Wyoming history. I only offer this because I have exhausted hundreds of Browns in the rockies.

  11. Kyle Sandau if your reading this blog I need you to lookup this book. Sing for a Gentle Rain by J. Alison James. Remember little Alison and the million dollar clue? Close but no cigar, you are a very observant man.

    Fait Acompli

    • See also page 382 Pueblo Indian Religion, Volume 1
      By Elsie Worthington Clews Parsons

      Kyle here’s your answer about “The Lost Kivas of San Lazaro” Ric Hajovsky

      Excerpt from TTOTC
      Everyone on the TV was talking about how he had revolutionized
      writing novels in his day, and so on. The news said he was very
      secretive about what he did, and even Diane Sawyer mentioned
      that he’d written a lot of books and had hidden some in a vault
      so no one could read them. He seemed like my kind of guy but I
      couldn’t figure out how he could be such an important writer
      when I’d never even heard of him.

  12. “W.R. on October 16, 2017 at 1:26 pm said:


    So your are a sinks canyon fan based on that comment.

    If so, provide an email and I’ll provide somewhere you may have not considered. If not, the Minnesota is a long way off as that’s the only other spot that is like that in the US.”

    W.R. – I’ve been at that spot in MN numerous times on family camping trips – quite intriguing.

  13. Is it possible that “below the home of Brown” is an altitude reference. This would give 1) starting point. 2) direction. 3) distance. 4) altitude.
    All info that a pilot would need

    • rvdoc4000 –

      Yes sir!
      Altitude is super important to a pilot and altitude and elevation are not the same, but work together. There may be references to altitude in the book or poem that we are not recognizing.


  14. Last night I read a post that Cinthia said she heard and another heard Forrest state that HOB was not a structure. On Odds and Ends thread.
    I know that Forrest said the treasure was not associated with a structure. So now we see that it’s something else.
    Brown is a color. Brown could be a Fish or Animal or it’s home.

    • Lou Lee;

      I think that it has been said that where Indulgence is secreted ” is not associated with a structure. I do not see why any other clue might not be a structure. Good luck with your search – Stay out of the outhouses though – except if you need to use it – 🙂 JDA

      • Yes JD, we all know that but many, (not me). Thinks HOB is a structure possibly. However Cinthia stated last night on odds and ends that Forrest stated HOB it self is not a structure. So this eliminates places like Lamar ranger station, and many others, that searchers have thought of like Molly Brown’s home.
        Put in would mean a starting point for a journey, a river trip or a plane destination.

          • Thanks digging, I was trying to share this important piece of info. Did Forrest post This? Well no, but it makes sense. Cynthia seems reliable. It’s something to consider. I thought it was important. Heck even Forrest said something to me never was posted or wrote on a blog or book but I hold it as dear valuable information that eliminates some things on the chase!

          • Digging, Cynthias post is on the now closed comment thread last night, near the bottom of Odds and Ends thread.

          • Here is the post you guys are refering to: cynthia on December 9, 2017 at 6:53 pm said:

            JW, I’m not actually trying to sell you my book but there is a section in it where I talk about Forrest telling me HOB cannot be a structure. In my search story I was telling him about one of my searches (2014, I think); my hob was an old abandoned CCC cabin. I also talk about another searcher who used an Indian ruin as her hoB, and he told her the same thing. No structures.

            Hope this helps. Not having read Cynthia’s book, I can not put these “second-hand” comments in perspective, so will file them as “Interesting info.” JDA

          • JDA,

            I understand what you’re saying, but IF true, this is very disturbing to me because it would appear certain searchers are receiving huge clues not shared with the rest of the community and it’s real hard to conduct a fair game if the playing field isn’t level. At least one time in the past Forrest did just that because of a slip of the tongue regarding WWWH not being related to a dam and resulted in SB 68.

            So with that precedent being set, and with all due respect, I would like to request Forrest share his remark to Cynthia and others regarding HOB. This is very important to me because, in a word, my HOB is a structure.

            And if true, what about the other clues?


          • Hi Pina.

            First off…I want to say, I’ve never rcvd a response from FF from any email sent to him. Actually never thought I would, but just wanted to express my thoughts on his effort and the hunt…..but I also agree with you that email hints or help, is not keeping the playing field level…..

            Unless….those responses are not relevant at all.

            Could FF actually be responding with false information, just to throw a person off?

            I can’t say if this is true or not, but i do feel that what others have said, should not be occurring….even if you “think” you are more than just an acquaintance to FF.


            Just my two cents worth.


          • Tim,

            I believe Forrest to be an honorable and trustworthy man and certainly don’t want anyone to think I am accusing him of not being forthright and honest with all searchers.

            It is certainly plausible he again inadvertently said something he didn’t realize at the time. If that’s the case IMO he correct the oversight to re-level the field.


          • Pina-
            You must live in an imaginary world where life is perfect and everyone plays by the same rules. We’ve heard these unrealistic requests before on this blog…about others perceived to have gotten “insider information” about the chest and how darned unfair it is. I disagree.

            Forrest inevitably talks with others, searchers, family and friends about the chest. New information is bound to be revealed from time to time. Forrest is under no obligation to run this treasure hunt by anyone’s rules but his own, and given his independent and teasing nature why would you expect anything different from him?

            Imagine the conversations, recorded and otherwise that go on during a typical media interview. These interviews can go on for an hour or more. Yet, what is released to the public may be only a couple of minutes of edited aftermath…less than five percent of the actual interview. Is there information in the rest that could be useful? Of course there is.
            Imagine the conversations that go on in Forrest’s office with his family…a curious grandson at the age where he now grasps the value of grandpa’s hidden treasure and has a couple of questions.

            Pina, I hate to break it to you but there are thousands of pieces of information out there that are floating around in private minds that you will never hear about or be able to plug into your solutions.

            If you feel it should be otherwise than I think you should give up the chase before it causes your blood pressure to rise significantly.

            Instead, do as the rest of us do, who suffer no illusions about the flow of information that passes us by…take the volumes of information that we do have and work with it.

            One final thought about this…searchers should be grateful that folks like Cynthia and Doug are so willing to share. They didn’t have to. They could have held on to it for themselves…

            Have you ever heard a single hint shared by Shiloh or Chipper? Of course not…

          • Thanks for the head slap coach, but not so hard next time please. The wife put me that blue concussion protocol tent for evaluation this morning. I’m fine now.

            Kidding aside, I can be naive at times. It’s just that Cynthia’s revelation hit my solve pretty hard, one that I’ve been working hard for several months now since my last one didn’t work out, and the HOB I found was unique and fit very nicely into my puzzle solution. I have another, more natural HOB in the area, but it just doesn’t really do anything for me if that makes sense.

            I’ve lost a lot of time, but at least I didn’t waste money and even more time putting BOTG so thank you very much for that Cynthia and for being so unselfish in sharing your knowledge.

            Time to go back to WWWH and start down the canyon anew.

            I do appreciate the wake up call Dal.


          • JDA – How can you search the comments for “closed” sections or archived information?

          • Hello Covert One. Go to “Searchers Discussions” link and you’ll find Archive pages there, too.

          • Hey CO…just to spark a conversation….

            Being new…do you think you have a fresh set of eyes on the hunt?

            Have you tried to read the previous years blogs in order to the various theories and solves?
            Can you summarize your mine clues to places/locations/elevation/things FF said, etc….?

            How well have you achieved any of these things?

            Are you a spiritual person? Can you think on many levels? Are you willing to be brave and put aside your fears?

            So much to think about, huh?

            Crazy fun!!!!


          • Tim – so many questions, so little time!

            I was actually joking when I mentioned being a newby….just couldn’t remember how to get to the archived information on this site.

          • Excellent points, Dal. Any time anyone speaks with Forrest in person, or receives a personal email, he or she is receiving “private information.” That Cynthia chose to share a piece of private, apparently Chase-relevant information with everyone is a testament to her character. She certainly was under no obligation to do so.

            Nevertheless, it is second-hand information and so it is up to individuals to decide whether to embrace or ignore it as they see fit. (I happen to take Cynthia at her word, though frankly I’ve never had any manmade structures play any part in any of my clue solutions — it would seem too “impure” and unFennlike to incorporate unnatural elements in the Chase.) In any case, it’s not an especially helpful piece of information; kind of like ruling out outhouses or graveyards.

          • “I would not have hidden the treasure if I didn’t want everyone to have a fair chance of finding it. f ”

            “If they don’t know the rules, tell them to stay home and play Canasta.” f

            Thank you for explaining the rules, dal. I see now that I have been laboring under a misapprehension for several years.

            Thanks again for the forum, and all your, and Goofy’s, hard work.

        • I’m not going to get into the fair play or not idea.
          But I would like to review…
          Q&A, MW’s a questioned asked directly to fenn and answered by fenn for posting on a blog…
          “Mr. Fenn, when you said not associated with any structure did that mean all 9 clues or just where the chest sits? Thanks, d.”
          “Yes d, it means the treasure is not hidden in or about a structure. Google “structure” for more information.f .”

          Now, If Cynthia heard or was told by others information… [I personally could careless, I’m not going to get into what anyone thinks fair play is, but only what I think it is]… I have to ask ‘myself’… What exactly was stated?
          We tend to hear what we want to hear.

          I don’t know what Cynthia means by “I talk about Forrest telling me HOB cannot be a structure. ” or “no structures”
          Was there a reason hoB “can not” be a structure? Was it stated exactly like that? Did fenn specifically say “no structures” and what was he talking about at that moment or how it was stated… hoB? WWH? In the wood? All the clues?

          If Cynthia would like to post this part of her book to help clarify, that might be helpful, even in our own minds. But even then, it’s still would be only [ no offense Cynthia ] unsubstantiated. Or if fenn would like to help clarify this in anyway, he can do so, if he chooses. Not unlike; wwh is not a dam.

          My point is… without the exact wording, I personally can’t jump the gun and make any real changes to what my thoughts are at this moment… { lol which has always been no structure related to any part of the poem’s clues… not now or in 3009. anyone who ever read my post knows I think that… And that is simply an opinion}.

          I also seem to me I recall another searcher who stated fenn saying; “Don’t mess with my poem.” It was some time later fenn made a comment that seemed to clarify that searcher to be correct in his recalling… Maybe time will tell with Cynthia comment.

          But I can also say.. other books have been written by searchers that have extraordinary words from fenn or themselves and not been substantiated either, and fenn never said anything about those… One title; How I found the solution to FF poem < really, I'm curious to who actually bought that book? I'm sure someone did.

          O'well… that's my commentary for tonight…

          • Clever last line . . . I get it.

            OH! I almost forgot to say something
            about the treasure hunt . . .

            It appears that FF is a fan of Tony
            Bennett. I wonder whether FF is
            also a fan of Lewis’s partner (not
            Clark), whose “well” known words were related to this treasure hunt. IMO.

          • A different, but possible way to read FF’s quote could be:

            Q: “Mr. Fenn, when you said not associated with any structure did that mean all 9 clues…”
            A: “yes,”
            Q: “or just where the chest sits?
            A: “it means the treasure is not hidden in or about a structure.
            Q: Thanks, d.”
            A: Google “structure” for more information.f .”

            Grammatically, if he wanted to only say it was not hidden in or about a structure, he should have said “No,” but says “Yes,” and then explains.

            This is different than how I had previously read this quote.

  15. im associated with you even if we haven’t met its another twister how is it personal with sir fenn and how can we ever know for sure

  16. Thanks JD for Posting Cynthias info. Maybe too I should just say. Forrest hints to things when he communicates. We glean from it and make our conclusions. No one said Big Clue. However this HOB comment is subject to interpretations. Who knows? I’m listening.

  17. I am new to this hunt. Just started reading all I can this year. So I will soak up any help that is offered. Is it possible that THOB is a reference to elevation? I.E. —- THOB Could be some place in Utah at an elevation of 6000 ft. If the clues were leading to NM, then if you “put in” below 6000 ft, would this work?

    • Not following your logic – What is there in hoB that leads you to Utah (not one of the 4 listed states) and 6,000′?

      Sure, ANYTHING is possible if the poem leads you there. Just the chattering of an OLD fool – JDA

      • I guess my logic is not very clear. I’ll try again. If the hoB is in any state, can I find the elevation of that place and “put in” below that elevation in another state, and still fulfill the clue “put in below the home of Brown”

        • mvdoc4000;
          As I said, Sure, ANYTHING is possible if the poem leads you there.

          I would NOT start with hoB though. Begin it where Forrest says to begin it – Begin it wwwh – That is clue #1. IF you find a wwwh location, that has a canyon going down (south or in elevation), and this canyon crosses – say Utah into NM or CO, sure, give it a whirl. Same for CO to NM etc. Just sayin it COULD be okay, provided the poem tells you to go there – JMO – JDA

          • Thanks JDA
            Like I said, I am new to this hunt. I am developing a theory for next summer that starts with wwwh. But getting a handle on how FF thinks has been a challenge. And fitting the hoB into my theory isn’t easy. But then, if it were easy, it would have been found already. rvdoc

        • rvdoc,

          Sure, any clue could be in one state and the chest in another… whether elevation be the factor or even lat or long. I had at one time, the “Browns Valley man as hoB with the 45 degrees to a location in MT, to put in below. I’ll toot my own horn and say it was a brilliant solve, one of a kind, couldn’t be wrong, every thing fit like a glove…
          Well, until fenn came along with these pesky ATF comments and said; Searcher who had the first two clues walked by all the others, and the chest.
          One of those quote goes as;
          “It’s not a matter of trying. It’s a matter of thinking. Sure, I mean people figured out the first couple of clues and unfortunately walked past the treasure chest”

          I mean, didn’t he know how smart I am, or how long I worked on that solve… how rude.
          Sure, I guess an elevation in one state can work for another clue in another state… but imo doubtful

          Oh! By the way… welcome to the mad house. White coats with long sleeves required… a tie is optional. Please check in and register with the from desk, ask for Goofy, who will be please to hand you a password key to your special reserved padded room. If you have any concerns or FAQ, dial 0 for management, and ask for Dal…

          • rvdoc,
            lol, You must have the older version.. the new style used belt buckles. Were a trendy group here… just check out the hat competition thread. And who doesn’t like a gal in cowboy boots? Zebra or any other kind.
            Is that still politically correct-?- “cowboy boots”
            Hmm, would a gal be considered a dude or a dudette… I just hope there not all Bro’s. I still get confused if that means a surfer or a gang-banger. I guess women can be both as well… sorry what was I talking about?

            Oh right! clothes are optional, Umm I mean, style of clothes. It’s not that kinda hotel.

          • One of his ATF comments sent me though a , “debunk my solve”, crises point too ,once. But then I recouped- I think. Lol.

      • JDA….

        The TC is located in one of four states.

        I don’t think FF had ever stated the map didn’t start elsewhere. He did state 8.25 miles north of SF….so that latitude is pretty wise spread.

        I think you get my point.


        • BTW – my WWWH behind in one of the four states…..just in case you were windering, so I don’t fall into that camp.

    • If your idea fits with how you read the poem ,as a map , resulting in a conclusion location to in one of the 4 states; then your idea has possibility . I haven’t read the poem in the way you are thinking but I wouldn’t say to eliminate the idea. IMO .

  18. Although Cynthia did not need to share…she did. Her shared comment should spark an idea that the treasure is not associated with any structure. Fenn has alluded to this in other comments but folks seem to think it only means one thing or aspect of the Chase. I just do not understand where Fenn may have ever thought that any structure would be a wise clue choice that would survive 1000yrs. ? Mind boggling.
    Thanks for putting it out there Cynthia.

    • Thanks, Ken, for your support. As a fairly new searcher in 2014, I felt like ff telling me “Don’t you remember I said it can’t be associated with a structure” (regarding my hoB) was really revealing, when in actuality, if folks really listened to what he says over and over using different words, now makes this seem so obvious to me 4 years later. Like you stated, how could any of the clues be a structure? Look at the forest fires that have ravaged huge areas, including YNP, and many places in Colorado and NM over the last 8 years. I doubt Forrest thought he was giving me any significant information. He was probably silently wondering why I was so dense when we all should know “the clues need to withstand the test of time.” cynthia

      • Cynthia, ~’As a fairly new searcher in 2014, I felt like ff telling me “Don’t you remember I said it can’t be associated with a structure” (regarding my hoB) was really revealing,..’

        While I get the quotation to be what you felt / thought fenn was relaying… just by putting that in quotes, others may, and will, perceive it as fenn’s actual words. LOL I can almost guarantee those words will be used later by an other stating ‘fenn said this’… and not so much Cynthia felt like…

        What was actual said to you and not so much what you felt was being relayed?

        I also [ as I posted earlier ] believe for any clue to last and meet fenn’s thoughts of down the road and / or the RM’s movement will surely have an impact… the clues, imo, are of natural features and not structures. So sure, it seems obvious to me.

        But unless we can verify what fenn stated with more accuracy… a conversation from 2014 leaves us with a bit of a conundrum. The WWH is not a dam comment killed a few theories [but helpful], the many wwwh in the Rockies comment knock out some others [but helpful], The treasure is not associated with a structure, is what many have lived by while attempting to solve the poem.

        Was this conversation you had with fenn a recorded interview? Does your book say anything different to the post[s] on the blogs, and if so would you be willing to share. Was the conversation in an e-mail and do you have that available? Just curious, and I’m sure many others are as well.

        • Makes you wonder? Fenn was saying the treasure was not associated with a structure. Could he slipped and said home of Brown. The older I get I say things that slip out etc. Lol. I have to correct myself.
          However another heard this too. I’m rethinking my “home’s ” of Brown. There are a few. Don’t focus on that….Start at the beginning. And try to unlock that darn Key!

        • Seeker, Since you asked so nicely, I will reply. In my book I write about the entire conversation I had with Forrest 10/02/2014 at the Collected Works Bookstore. (I have a Word Document that is my time-line with the date of EVERY conversation, visit, emails I’ve had with him as well as media I’ve done with or without him, and events of his I’ve attended. So I’m not just stating this from memory… it’s in my notes., which is what I used when I wrote my book.) The CONTEXT of the statement in quotes is there in my book but not on this thread. That is understandably important to some of the readers of this blog…others who know me, not so much…they know me.

          However, I also added in my book in this same paragraph and I thought on the old thread here that FF told another searcher the same thing when she revealed to him that her hoB was an Indian ruin, and he told her the same thing “Don’t you remember I said it can’t be associated with a structure.” This woman told me this at Fennboree 2016, and I was so happy to hear he confirmed to her what he told me. She is a local searcher I’ve known for several years and keeps to herself.

          Fenn has stated the blogs are for entertainment… Use this information or don’t. What astonishes me is how many people don’t want to hear things Fenn told me or other searchers one-on-one because it doesn’t fit their solve. They dismiss it like I/ we made it up. A good example: how many times did I mention in my stories or comments here that WWWH was the first clue? All the searchers who wanted the first clue to be in the first stanza didn’t want to hear it. And that’s ok… Fenn did say the blogs are for entertainment.

          Everything I wrote in my book is correct and not mis-stated. I used my notes… not my memory. And I shared more than just “hoB is not associated with a structure.” But I guess I better never state that info here.

          Now when Mindy wrote on ChaseChat last month that FF told her “it’s not in Yellowstone”, should I believe her or not. I guess I’m experiencing the same dilemma as some of you. To believe or not to believe… hmmmm. We each need to figure out what information from searchers we want to keep, file under “maybe but…maybe not”, or just plain reject.

          Dal summarized it best earlier in this post regarding Forrest talking to tons of searchers in the previous 7 years. He said lots of stuff to lots of searchers, both face-to-face at lunches, visits to his home, or in emails. I actually offered a local guy $100 to see what ff wrote in his TTOTC book…. something that ff told him (about 4 years ago) that he “never told anyone else.” This guy let me see the inscription for free, but if I find the chest, I owe him one of the large nuggets. And he told me I was not allowed to share this with others, so I never have shared it. It is not in my book, but I sure wanted to add it to one of the pages of Fenn quotes. It’s a doozy! I’ve never seen it posted or heard it mentioned.

          This firestorm is why I seldom post comments anymore. I’ve received personal emails, messages on FaceBook and emails from ff that people are complaining to him. AGAIN! My gosh, this cycle has been going on for 4 years… Someone please find Fenn’s treasure chest to stop the madness!

          Seeker, I hope this answered your question… I understand your concerns. cynthia

          • Woo hoo ! Again Cynthia…nice post and certainly more than gracious.
            Interesting additions… Mindy’s , not so much…but the guy with the inscription that you peeked at, that one made my ears perk up quite a bit!
            The folks that complain to Fenn should be ashamed….leave the guy alone, he’s done enough! And, don’t let the storm keep you from posting…
            psst…tell the guy with the inscription that this other guy(ken) will give him 2 nuggets and a couple of Eagles…

          • Thank Cynthia you truly seem like a great person. I’m so blessed you are a part of this great and moral treasure hunt.

          • Pdenver,
            Great to see you again. We should really meet up sometime and trade ideas. I live in denver too!

          • Hi Cynthia-

            You are one of the people that let us know Fenn had only one question when he met a searcher for the first time.

            Where’s your warm water halt?

            I appreciate that piece if knowledge. It’s the reason I knew wwh was the first clue and I shared that on HoD. Nobody listened.

            As I keep saying.
            Listen to Cynthia

          • I am still just absolutely enthralled with the positive and lovely comments Cynthia has made. She is a true searcher and an absolutely wonderful person. Go get get em Cynthia. Good for you. I see such a bright future for you

          • Cynthia,
            Thanks for getting back…
            First, I don’t want you to think I’m saying what you stated to be not true. But I personally need to work the ATFs out in the hopes the help me to not travel down a rabbit hole.
            I don’t look at the ATF as “hints” or “clues”… I attempt to find truth between all of them combined, even when they seem to contradict each other at times

            Fenn’s Q&A…
            “Mr. Fenn, when you said not associated with any structure did that mean all 9 clues or just where the *chest sits*? Thanks, d.”
            “Yes d, it means the *treasure* is not hidden in or about a structure. Google “structure” for more information.f .”

            Lets play this simple at first…
            The answer seems to say. The treasure means the chest, and inadvertently the treasure/chest is not in or around a structure. There is no mentioned of any clues [when asked directly about them] in fenn’s answer.

            Logically, that leaves the door open for a structure to be another clues, right?
            Sure, I know we have other comments that can be perceived as no structures for a clue… as I said earlier.
            So to be straightforward, in all honestly, My thoughts are asking why fenn didn’t include the 9 clues, but only answered “treasure” ..and.. how you could make the statement that seems to contradict fenn’s own words in this Q&A.

            Ok, I stated all that for this reason[ings];
            1. One of the two, comment/Q&A, is wrong or misunderstood.
            2. fenn didn’t want to give out anything that would help in the Q&A, not unlike fenn saying he “hid” the chest but that doesn’t mean its “not buried”, line of thinking… so he stuck to his guns [ so to speak ] and answer the Q&A to match a prior ‘clues’ from the today show, line of thinking.
            3. And it’s a long shot,
            There might be more than meet the eye with the words chest vs. treasure vs. trove, to think about.

            Whatever the final out come… all of this has me thinking. Nottin wrong with thinking those WhatIF’s.

            Thanks again…

          • LOL!! Seeker, I feel ya pain!!

            First, I have never entertained the idea that HOB could be a ‘structure. So Cynthia’s revelation means nothing to me.

            Second, in case anyone was wondering, I have never written Fenn complaining about anything. If I choose to challenge someone, Fenn included, I do so out in the open, here on hoD!!…..at least, until Goofy hits the button! 🙂

            In her OP, Cynthia wrote: “….I talk about Forrest telling me HOB cannot be a structure.”, when she was telling him about one of her searches.

            In a subsequent post, she wrote: I felt like ff telling me “Don’t you remember I said it can’t be associated with a structure” (regarding my hoB)…..

            So, without context, I suppose it’s possible that she could interpret his remark, in her second post, as meaning as “HOB cannot be a structure”.

            As far as the searcher Cynthia references for corroboration, we know absolutely nothing about her, or the context of her interaction with Fenn.

            Maybe he was talking about HOB,who knows? After all, he is slightly hearing impaired. Who knows if he correctly heard/understood what Cynthia was saying?

            And, apparently if you want the context of Cynthia’s conversation with Fenn, as she remembered when she got home to write it down, you will have to buy her book(but, you will also get more hints). Buy the book if you wish to pursue this further….I don’t.

            Cynthia, if you read this, I am not attacking you. Everyone who posts here gets challenged at one time or another, especially if they post something about confirmation of a clue. I like you a lot and enjoy reading your stories. I think you are being totally truthful, in your understanding of what you thought Fenn was referring to, within the context of your conversation with him.

            And, Cynthia, I certainly have no problem with searchers ‘thinking’ that Fenn has given them private info,(even when he has repeatedly said he won’t do that)……you know, that means less competition!! 🙂

            I was always 99 percent sure that BIWWWH was the first clue. However, it was nice to find absolute confirmation. You want us to accept your statement as fact…If the context of the conversation proves your claim, that is wonderful. We, as searchers, have very few absolutes in this Chase that we can rely on. (If ya can get Goofy to add it to the Cheat Sheet, then that would do it) 🙂

            Cynthia, all I’m trying to accomplish (and I think Seeker), is to keep the separation betwenn fact and opinion. Dal has addressed it in the Rules.

            Anyway, Cynthia, you go girl….keep on, keepin’ on!!

            And Good Luck to Ya!!

            (I ‘spose the real question is: What did Fenn tell ya that made you drop New Mexico all of a sudden…and make a run for the North country??) 🙂 

          • Hey Cynthia,

            I hope that all is well with you and yours. I just ordered your new book. I am sure that it will be a good read. However, I will not be reading it or Mr. Fenn’s new book for a while until my eye is healed from retina surgery. I hope that you sell lots of copies. I also hope that your new search area proves to be fruitful for you. I was disappointed to hear about Fennboree, we missed 2017 but were looking forward to 2018. But, that is life. If we find our way to West Yellowstone in June, which is unlikely but not impossible, we will try to make your mini-Fennboree.

            Windy City

          • Cynthia – As a fellow competitive searcher it is hard not to feel somewhat slighted when learning that FF has given out seemingly significant information to an individual or group of individuals by whatever manner or means while balancing an understanding that this is his TTOTC and he can do as he wishes with his information. We are all only human.

            I will admit to being one of the people alluded to who has written to FF in “request mode”. Specifically, my request was regarding his First comment from SB78 and I simply asked that if he (FF) feels like something should be shared, let us all know somehow without the possibility of censorship. That letter was not intended as an attack by any means on either of the two men (Dal or FF) and the bulk of same was actually thanking him for the things TTOTC has done for me and my family—just a request for as level a playing field as possible for the greatest number of participants possible. Life doesn’t always make such possible.

            Like many people, where I make a living and raise/care for my family means that, despite a strong desire to, I can’t hobnob with FF or perform daily/weekend searches, so all I have to put into the TTOTC I glean from online, his books, ATF’s, etc. and am very appreciative of the sharing that goes on. While your revelation that HOB (and apparently the whole chase) isn’t associated with any structure does little to impact my own current solve, I am sure you can imagine how such knowle(d)ge could devastate a searcher’s psyche when their whole solve revolved around HOB actually being some form of structure (I think it was Iron Will who recently gave up the chase after something was posted about where FF parked his car).

            Those who think TTOC doesn’t have its costs as well as its perks are fooling themselves.

            I’ll probably get blasted by some for posting this, and others may agree with me, silently or otherwise.

            I’m only human, too, and will continue my TOTC despite all the odds.

          • Over the seven years of the search for Indulgence there have been many “leaks” of useful information from folks close to Forrest. In each instance there have been those who feel it is important to somehow express their angst with Forrest for divulging information to some but not all…
            But there have also been those who were upset when Forrest provided new information to all of us at the same time. For instance, when Forrest ruled out the states of Utah and Idaho…
            I remember one searcher who was so upset that he seemed to lose his ability to think objectively when he told me that he wished that Forrest never gave out any new information at all because now he knew that he had spent his time and money foolishly when he first started out since he was then looking in Utah.

            Reminds me of these words:
            “Two things prevent you from becoming a success: dwelling in the past with regret, and following others blindly.”
            ― Debasish Mridha

          • Cynthia,
            It’s a doozy! I’ve never seen it posted or heard it mentioned.

            I can sense this got to you… Well, no more sleep for me.

          • Bowmac and others,
            Perhaps those of us that have stuck to the poem and the poem only have a better chance of coming to a correct solve sooner than those who listen and analyze and ponder and dissect and construct and re-
            I fell in love with the poem.
            It has 9 sentences/clues.
            I have listened and followed directions.
            And then listened some more.
            All is good.
            All we have to do is keep our eyes on the title to the gold.
            And keep reading and listening.

          • Thanks Cynthia,
            “This firestorm is why I seldom post comments anymore.”
            Well stated, IMO, it’s hard to disagree with a respected botg searcher.

          • Clearly Clueless – I can appreciate that you seem to be telling me (and others) that you are a poem purist. In rebuttal I would simply ask if the poem itself has led you to rule out such things as Canada, Idaho, dams, the Rio Grande, outhouses, graveyards, etc. or has your perusal of other information posted online influenced you as well? Like Seeker has stated on more than one occasion about his own search method, I, too, attempt to prove/disprove things using the ATF quotes/information to verify or refute what the poem is saying to me. Ignoring the other things FF has said/done regarding TTOTC may turn out to be an expensive misstep, including information graciously shared by other respected searchers which some see as a monumental-whopper-of-a-doozy.

          • Hey Bowmac,
            While I have been called a poem purist myself… and I kinda am. The reason being is fenn consistently telling us to go back to the poem… and … all the information to find the chest is in the poem. So I work with that… mainly because, even thought the book can help with the clues [per fenn], That’s 147 pages of many possibilities to just say… page, whatever, says this and I think it means that and I’m gonna run my entire thought process around that.

            However, anyone who says all anyone needs is the poem alone is fooling themselves. It’s so obvious that its dumbfound to think if i simply found the 24 line poem i could solve it. Why?
            We were told there are 9 clues… why there are 9 and why we were told has yet to be seen… but fenn must have felt it important to give that number.
            We were told, In the mountains N.of SF… again, without this, could the poem be solved… I highly doubt it. Even when we have read the ATFs about the RM’s I still don’t understand why fenn just didn’t say RM’s to start with or why SF and not SF NM.

            Are these pieces, of after the facts pieces of information, we take for granted now -?- but was a need to understand [and possibility understood by those who solved the first two clues and were on location? ]

            Which brings me to my point; There is no mentioned of rainbow in the poem, yet fenn stated the clues will lead us to “his rainbow” before even mentioning the ‘treasure chest’ in the sentence prior to the poem… Important? A metaphor? IDK, But it is interesting he stated it and before the chest itself.

            IMO ~ the book can be very confusing [ because many look for ‘answers’ within it, but without any information from it… the poem can’t not stand alone. That is one reason I say… we’re missing something, and we’re reading this poem wrong. We’re not seeing fenn’s big picture. Whatever that is.

            End of commentary..

          • Seeker – I understand where you are coming from and only mentioned you to assert that I also use ATF comments to check/balance things about the poem, other ATF comments, etc., not to call into question your reason(s) for doing so. We (sometimes) think alike.

          • Thanks Seeker, for reminding me about – “The clues will lead you to the end of my rainbow” – This was very helpful – The END of somewhere where there is a rainbow of colors maybe? – Thanks – JDA

          • Evidently, as I peruse this conversation, I’m noticing no one even visiting the subtle and yet obvious use of these words.

            Metaphorically and in only legend, a pot of gold is at the end of a rainbow.

            Rainbows and gold are associated to hidden treasure….just ask “Lucky” or the nearest leprechaun.

            One knows that rainbows are associated to water…..this it is practical to say, that the location of the TC could very well be situated under a mist/splash of water that can cause a rainbow to be seen.

            FF reflects that at the end of his tainbow, a pot of gold exists.

            IMO – The rainbow is his glorious path to his gold.

            A forest holds many colors of the rainbow, and as you visit our national forests in the Summertime, you will also find that they are vibrant with many colors on top of other even many other colors.

            It you can find [the path] to my rainbow, you will find my pot of gold.

            Metaphorically speaking.


          • Bowmarc and Seeker,
            Thanks guys. I stand corrected and have no problem with that. Thinking back when I found this poem about 2 years ago online, I did also read about the 4 states which were still in the running. I also, read in the article about there being 9 clues.
            Obviously, looking at only these 4 states gives us a good place to start.
            From the very beginning 9 clues has been important to my theory. So, yes, I appreciate Forrest giving all of us those facts.

          • I didn’t think that, Bowmarc… I was just rambling more about it. It’s always good to revisit thoughts of why or why not the poem can work on its’ own, or is there information from the book that is needed to be heard of.
            I always wondered why fenn stated in the mountains N. of SF… was it simply a general idea to keep folks from wondering into his property? Didn’t want to narrow down a stated or region or even to the USA [ at the time of the book release ]. Or is there something we need to know about the RM range in total and not just a state or region.

            LOL hence; a few of my theories revolved around the mountain range itself. One theory was using national parks as to fenn’s later comment of drawing lines… the first 9 to be exact… then later… the oldest to newest in the search area [ new and old , line of thinking ]… Unfortunately I don’t think the clues {references} are that far apart… even if drawing lines can pin point a place.
            Especially now, when fenn said he follow the clues ‘when he hid the chest’

          • Clearly Clueless,
            Don’t sweat it… your screen name says it all..lol… Welcome to My World. The sky is clear and clueless here.

    • Mr. Ken–
      IMO The HOB did not survive 1000 years….it didn’t even make 100. IMO all that remains is a sorry bit of the foundation. BUT…..history will always know where it once stood.

      Only my thoughts;


      • Sherif, I like this idea. Maybe the foundation doesn’t even still exist at the hoB. On a map of the Pecos Wilderness, there is a place designated Beatty’s Cabin because in the 1800s, there was actually a cabin there. Now there’s nothing there but everyone who hikes or hunts there knows that particular spot as Beatty’s Cabin.

        • Oops, I stand corrected on Beatty’s Cabin. I received an email from a person saying they hiked there several years ago and there is indeed a cabin. I was sure I read the history and it was no longer there… my bad. I apologize. I stopped short of the spot because it was a long hike… I mean an all-dayer one way. I’d have to backpack and spend the night there… and then return to my vehicle the next day. I hope to do a pack-trip there where you pay a cowboy and mules to take you up into the Pecos. As Fenn said “I’ve done it tired and now I’m weak”. For me, that translates to I’m old and tired and need a mule to carry my stuff.

          • Wow Cynthia. Just such an excellent and hard working searcher you are. Keep up the great work. I’m truly impressed.

          • A new structure was built at the original site of Beatty’s Cabin, which is again called Beatty’s Cabin.

          • Cynthia

            May I suggest you are confusing a couple of infamous Chase cabins? Beattys Cabin and Amelia Earharts cabin.


      • Billy…those are great thoughts…and who knows really. I would still say that your “scenario” still suggests a structure. But…that’s just me.

  19. Cynthia has confirmed to me that Forrest told her that home of Brown is not a structure. That appears to exclude a lot of potential solutions presented here, including mine. ;-(

    • Maybe it’s not a structure but it’s many structures. If someone asked do you have a car, I can say no, because I have three cars. I can say no and still be telling the truth, just not all of it. Forrest is very good at that type of foolery.

      • By the way, Am I the only one ( I must be , never heard it from anyone else anywhere) here that thinks that the sentence “Put in below the home of Brown.” is two of the nine clues?

        We know that THOB is one clue (geographical location), right? So put in below it is another clue (geographical location). So that one sentence is two clues. Remember Forrest said in response to an interviewer, sounds like 3 or 4 clues to me.
        This just might help someone in their plight to solve the poem. Just trying to be helpful.

    • James;

      Doesn’t make sense to me. Forrest says to begin wwwh OK -a spot on a map.
      “And take it in the canyon down” – Has to mean south or lower in elevation.
      So, take the canyon south or lower in elevation some distance – what distance?
      “Not far, but too far to walk.” Let’s say 10 miles just for the heck of it. (Could be more, could be less).
      “Put in BELOW the hoB”. If we were going south, we “put in” somewhere farther south than the hoB – Isn’t that right?
      If we were going lower in elevation, from wwwh, I guess that we could be traveling in any direction, N,S,E or W. Few waterways in the Rockies flow north – a few, but not many.
      We can mostly check this one off our list.
      Some flow east for short distances, and then turn south. Almost none flow West, except if you are on the western slopes of the Rockies, and usually that puts you in Idaho or Utah. – out of bounds so we can eliminate most of these. Am I right? So, in almost every case, you will be going south, or at least southerly, even if you are using the elevation thing.

      So, considering all of the above, why would you ASSUME that wwwh is already below the hoB? Sorry, just does not compute for me. – But what do I know? NADA – JDA

      • Hi JDA.

        I see an error in your thinking.

        Not so much as an ‘error’ error….just something I noticed you seem to have already discarded…..

        You speak of…in your post that “hoB” is a reference to a “waterway”? We’ll that is my understanding of what you wrote.

        IMO – you dismiss many other possibilities….isn’t that just guessing, but do you have something that gives creedence you are correct in your guess?

        Good luck.

        • Tim;

          My logic is this. “Begin it where warm WATERS halt…” This implies to me that at least some water is flowing in some sized creek or stream – up until the place it “halts”.

          Since Forrest says there is no dam, I have to assume that the “waters” in the stream or creek enter the canyon that must be taken “down”

          I suspect, but do not KNOW, that the warm Waters creek or stream join some other stream, creek or river – Just a guess, and it matches my solve area. Even if it does not join another body of water, it still must go DOWN the canyon to a place below hoB.

          That is my logic – JDA

          • JDA,
            I believe Fenn is referring to the blog that Toby did on ” When And Where Warm Waters Halt” Not to mention the Hopi Indians are some of the warmest people you will ever meet! I believe he is also referring to the Water Clan

        • Tim – My hoB is a stream that empties into the Blue Ribbon canyon down fly fishermen’s waterway, aka my “IT”, and that creek classically turns the proverbial Brown, during Spring runoff or during heavy thunderstorms, ie. those experienced during Forrest’s and Donnie’s L&C story. There was a Brown Indian Blackfeet settle mentioned, up that Cabin Creek canyon, per Osborne Russell, and My Grizz and all his Brown bear friends have established permanent residence there. And then there is the 10lb Brown trout caught on video by Bob Jacklin in the deep hole in front of my wise glacial erratic Owl Blaze Boulder, located across the Madison River from the secluded Day Use Area, where I think Forrest parked his sedan. If that was on Father’s Day, 2010, that was a really long day.

          Put in at my hoB at the Cabin Creek Trailhead, if you dare…

          Lions and Cutthroats and Grizzes, Oh My!

          Follow the Yellow Brick Road, from West Yellowstone’s YNP Entrance.

      • JDA, here’s a brief point I want to make . . .

        FF has cautioned us to pay attention to the nouns
        in the poem. Have you looked up “down” in a

        It’s gonna be a very long winter.

        • tighterfocus

          Yes, I have looked up the MANY meanings of down,.. and use two or three different interpretations as I work my way through the poem – more than once. JDA

      • “Below The Home Of Brown” in the old censes reports the Native Americans were referred to as The Brown People just as White or Black is capitalized. In his story of visiting Border’s Book store he telling you it near the Border of an Indian Reservation and that it’s a reservation consisting of The Water Clan as it rained for two days!

      • Hi JDA, When I read the poem, It seems to me, that from “begin it where, to put in”, can be read as a continuous sentence. Putting WWWH, automaticaly below the HOB. It’s just a way of eliminating something that seems to be a problem to solve, but has no factual tangibility. Like the entire first stanza.

          • What are you doing with the lines “And take it in the canyon down, Not far but too far to walk”? Are you ignoring these lines? If you are, it might be a mistake – JMO – JDA

        • James;

          Please look closely at the punctuation. There is a period (end of sentence) at the end of “walk”.

          “Put in below the home of Brown” is a separate – stand-alone sentence (The only one-line stand-alone sentence in the poem. There are a couple of other stand-alone sentences, but they use two lines – Just a thought. Why emphasize this “One line” that way? …Then to add the capital letter on Brown. Interesting— Food for thought – JDA

    • My thinking, of late, has been that WWWH is visible from an airplane, fly down into the canyon and land at the airstrip “below the HoB” wherever that is!


  20. Thanks to Cynthia for sharing! This new info. Is taking me back to the drawing board! I am now going back to my original way of thinking, before all the blog talk about Lamar and other structures. Games changer? Yes for many.

  21. Per MysteriousWritings interview here: http://mysteriouswritings.com/questions-with-forrest-fenn-and-the-thrill-of-the-chase/

    Searcher’s Question:
    Mr. Fenn, when you said not associated with any structure did that mean all 9 clues or just where the chest sits?

    Forrest’s Answer:
    Yes d, it means the treasure is not hidden in or about a structure. Google “structure” for more information. f

    The treasure is not hidden “in our about” a structure.
    In my opinion, this does not exclude any HoB that is a structure. It just means that the treasure is not hidden “in or about” the structure.

    “About” is another relative term intentionally used by Forrest…because he is clever 🙂

    Cheers and goodnight luck in 2018 everyone!


    • Allen,
      There’s always a WhatIF possibility that, at the very least, hoB is very close to the chest or hidey spot… if not all the clue’s references. If so, Then “about” just became as interesting as “close proximity”

      Another comment fenn made, might imply all the clues could be in a small location; marry the clues [to mean all the clue{s}] to a place [ A Place and not places{s} ] on a map… giving the impression there might not be 9 places but one or two, line of thinking.

      Lets go even farther and use the comments of the first two clues and searchers walking by all the clues and the chest… seems relatively close, right?

      If we look at fenn’s comment about two trips in one afternoon and tells searcher they need to be able to walk several miles to there “solve” [ solve to mean a complete task ] and not so much to each clue as any major distance apart [ such as a 10 miles between wwwh and hoB, idea ]

      Now for the fun of it [ let’s play with some of the ‘second’ and ‘third’ hand information other searcher have stated they have been told ] hoB; not a structure… or no structures for clues. Or another searcher comment, being asked; where is your home? And another that I like [ I just wish there was a way to verify it ]; Folks did quit, the left the poem. [ note again… these are second hand pieces of information ].

      And a Q&A about reverse engineering hoB to wwwh… replied as… if you know hoB why be concern with wwwh [ which could imply hoB is where wwh or tightly connected, idea ]

      So, as we analyze the crap out of the poem, the ATF’s, even second hand info [ whether folks want to believe the accuracy or not of those comments ].
      I agree, as you said, in regards to that Q&A, that there is a slim chance hoB or any clue could have a reference to a structure… But how likely would that be with the ATF comments we know of, and hope, other second info might be close to accurate?

      fenn also said [ paraphrasing for space ] he was thinking down the road… a very long period of time… how many structure will not change or disappear in any period of time? Very, very few I would say.
      Then again, there are man made cairns that are stacked, built, designed, that have lasted 100’s of years. So what kinda of “structure” is fenn relating to? Or what exactly does fenn mean when he talks about details on a map?

      Many like the theories, trains are involve some how or water towers or railroad tracks or look-out tower… some like the idea we need to travel roadways because of a line in the poem NFBTFTW [ including crossing bridges ] IF that line is a clue… and we use those structure to drive from one point to another, as some have claimed is need as part of the “solve” Structure??? If no structure are involved with any clues…

      My point is… we need to look at both side of the topic, and hopefully use the ATF comments as, checks and balances, to come up with a logical reasoning for them that does send the poem into a whirl spin.

      Personally I can’t find a reason for a structure [ especially man made, but not limited by ] that related to any “individual” clue “reference”
      But I can think of how a structure can be involved in an other usage.

      • Good points Seeker.

        I also contemplate what a “structure” is and/or how one could be related to the poem.

        For my general solve….I’ve stated and used “edge of civilization” as my starting point.

        Did you know, even though I am not stating that a structure is my starting point, I can say that a structure is nearby. Does this discount the clue I’ve selected.

        But if you really think about it – technically – my starting point is not structure.

        I agree, a structure can be used along with the poem, if you understand what the word parameters are or the use of the location.

        What is a structure? Are they only man made?

        It we are not to associate the poem with a structure, then can we used a struction just as a reference point or landmark?


        Put in below the home of Brown.

        If one were to read the context of this line, it pretty much states…..you, the seeker, will need to put in below the home of Brown.

        There are no dimensionalized specifics for what or where Brown is located at, so we have to presume that it is near – in some relative way – to WWWH. That is one way to think of the line.

        For me….my home of Brown is a small place north of WWWH and the “put in” location is actually quite enormous…but south of WWWH.



        I can understand why the LGFI cannot get past this point…..because there are so many entry points into my “below the hoB”, thus the difficulty begins.


        • Because you think fenn said little Indy can’t get past…
          That is not the same as, can not get closer than the first two clues.

          This comment is just another comment that might relate to the clues being very close together. ( Other of my thoughts are posted above).

          If I was to say, in regards to fenn’s comments… A mud puddle is an ocean to an ant, or Fenn description of the canyon on his hand… Would those be considered hints to help with the clues… Or are they too subtle , and a hint is more like an answer or more helpful for a clue?

          I really think it’s important to use the exact wording… Changing can not get closer might actually mean the next clues reference is right there or even the chest is very close..or both.

  22. Hi Seeker,
    You said:
    ‘3. And it’s a long shot,
    There might be more than meet the eye with the words chest vs. treasure vs. trove, to think about’.
    Just think, how many contradictions will be resolved if you accept the above.

  23. To me, The HOB, is so vague, it could be anything or nothing. I just count it as covered in my solve. There’s a 50% chance I’m right. IMO

    • Forrest was asked to reveal the location of the home of Brown, but he declined. He said it would lead someone directly to the treasure. So I believe it is a very big clue, and important to the solve.

      Not only that, but since it is referred to as the “home of Brown”, I also believe there is a “Brown” involved as well.

      Based on all I know (which is limited and my opinion), I also believe the blaze is located very close to the “hoB”.

      Here’s a radical idea: Maybe “Brown” is the “blaze”.


      • My belief is like yours Frank. I think it is so close you will pace off 500′ from the blaze (maybe two hundred depending). Darn ideas boiling in my mind. I hope a kid finds it playing king of the rock pile. Lol

  24. Dear Mr. Frank—

    The trouble is as I see it….is that we aren’t given the RULES to solve the poem. You see… IMO Mr. Fenn is not playing by the “common” rules in solving the poem.

    The common (accepted) method is to read each word and sentence, and then advance to the next sentence, and the next..until you get to the end and the treasure. However, Mr. Fenn hasn’t specified the rules, and we are assuming he plays the game like everyone else…

    IMO.. He alludes to an alternative set of rules when he says something like…”the person finding the treasure, will have failed over and over, each time returning back to the poem.”

    To me..that means you might get part way along the path and then to ADVANCE you have to go back to the beginning of the poem, using those words a second time,..or maybe three times.

    That is why I have found at least three blazes, and two homes of Brown along one continous path….

    All is my opinion.


    • Exactly!
      Forrest plays the game different than others.
      Part of the thrill of the chase is figuring out his rules with the his words.
      His puzzle is intriguing and once captured by it, it is hard for us to let go of it.
      We chase theories with our own preconceived ideas, only to hit a wall….
      Fun stuff!

    • Hi Billy

      I cannot totally disagree with this idea of yours. It does kinda make sense in a fairly ominous way. Maybe then, it is even more urgent to discover the correct “word that is key” to see the rules more clearly.

      Fenn spent 15 years on the poem, so that fact alone backs up your theory. So until I march in there and bring out the TC, all ideas are valid and worth investigating. Do you think the “word that is key” is part of this process? I tend to think so, but it is just my opinion.


      • Maybe searching words from the poem in books that F enjoyed is a good idea? Like “journal of a Trapper”. IMO the treasure will be secreted the way trappers hid fur’s and valuables. He treasurers the old ways and sought out those adventures when he was young. No abundance of banks back in the good ole days of 1830’s.

        Food fur thought. 🙂

    • Sparrow and others,…It’s not a fact that the home of Brown is not a man made structure or associated with a man made structure. It’s not a fact unless Forrest says it is and not some hear say from someone even if they are close to him. So keep that in mind. Don’t throw out your solve based on that feeble comment.

  25. I just thought of this after reading Scrapbook 181. I don’t think anyone has proposed this idea before, but I could be wrong.
    In the scrapbook Forrest calls the stone sculpture that was made by Doug Hyde ” Lady Pretty Blanket”. He capitalized the name because he named it.
    What if HOB is a rock formed by God or mother nature and he named it Brown?

    • DPT – An interesting idea. I have had a particular hoB in mind for all of my solves. The recent comment about the hoB not being a structure has raised some doubt in my mind as to whether I have the correct hoB identified.

      Right behind “my” hoB there are some beautiful Brown cliffs – maybe these cliffs are the hoB??? Hummm. I will have to “cogitate” on this a bit. – Thanks for the insight – JDA

      • Yes, JDA. That is interesting. Forrest could have named that cliff Mr. Brown.
        It makes more sense that Forrest puts so much emphasis on the first clue wwh to get it correct. Because if Brown was a popular named entity on a map or a persons grave you could just start there and walk right to the chest. Hmm, this is interesting indeed.

    • Wait! Whaat! Hold the press… How come ‘mother nature’ isn’t capitalized??

      DPT, I think in this case “Lady Pretty Blanket” is not so much a name as it is a title. However, with that said… hoB could represent a title, or importance, of something.

      Rocky for example; the mountains were rocky as a description vs. a name or title to the Rocky Mountains or Rockies.
      A bird is a symbol of my homeland vs. “The Bird” is the symbol of my homeland. “Bird” being capped to represent the name and/or its title reference… The Eagle… home of the Brave.

      So, within the poem and my examples… could hoB relate to a title, yet not the name brown -?- to why it [ brown] was capped?

      Oh! and please respect Mother Nature…

      • Thanks Seeker for pointing that out. Yes, I did forget to capitalize Mother Nature in my hast. And yes she is very respected by me.

        You bring up some good points Seeker on a possible title of HOB. And I like the Rocky mountain analogy!

        I will continue to contemplate this, but as I do it makes logical sense.

      • Seeker,

        You may be right, but this even creates a bigger quagmire and completely impossible to find the treasure. We can name things and no one else would even know ever, unless you let someone know that you have named something, let’s say a car named Betsy.

        Nowhere that I know of did F speak of something named Brown.

        Just saying

        • Charlie,
          My examples show why it might be capped. Not so much a made up name, but a reason for what it’s interpretation is [ might be ] and why capped.

          Lets try this.. president is not capitalized until it is used in a formal title. If hoB represents a formal title… many if not all would know of it…
          In a poem, a writer has freedom to choose how he wants to present this information… our job is to figure out what it may interpret to, and the word being capitalize might give us a clue to what it might refer to… even though normally it would not be capped. Such as; brown for color or an animal species etc etc. it’s the formal usage of the word that make it so.

          • I have to agree with ya Seeker. It makes sense to me.
            It definitely opens up other possibilities and explains why this is so hard and searchers are still scratching there heads seven years later.

          • I follow you but if it is a title reference then how does one go about determining what it is a title of? It would have to be in the poem right? The title of the poem?

    • I was out of town so maybe someone already posted this Fenn quote from On the Trail of Treasure in the Rocky Mountains
      By Mary Capterton Morton (Sunday, February 15, 2015 )

      The author of the article wrote “Curious about the long-term fate of both the chest and the quest, I asked Fenn whether the clues in the poem will also withstand the test of time. “I am guessing the clues will stand for centuries. That was one of my basic premises, but the treasure chest will fall victim to geological phenomena just like everything else. Who can predict earthquakes, floods, mudslides, fires, tornadoes and other factors?” Fenn says. So in FF’s answer to her, he says “I am guessing the CLUES WILL STAND FOR CENTURIES. That was one of my basic premises…” IMO, this is another way of ff saying “it’s (hoB) not associated with a structure.” And he also goes on to say “….the treasure chest will fall victim to geological phenomena…” He differentiates between the CLUES and the chest, acknowledging the clues will withstand the test of time but the chest won’t.

      I’m not trying to get any doubters to believe me; I’m just trying to provide a published statement by Fenn that you all can verify. I hope this helps some of you. I wasn’t trying to create a controversy…

      • Cynthia;

        In the Cheat Sheet, it says that the treasure is not ASSOCIATED with a structure. Can you recall, when Forrest said something about hoB and structure, did he use the word ASSOCIATE or ASSOCIATED in the conversation i.e. hoB is not associated with any structure, or did he just say hoB is not a structure?

        Thanks in advance for the clarification – it COULD make a difference – JDA

        • I could be wrong, JDA, but I thought I read somewhere Cynthia mentioned that f reminded her that he said the treasure wasn’t associated with a structure…as in all of the clues aren’t associated with a structure.

          I could be very wrong with my memory on this one.

          • I hope that Cynthia can verify what you say. For me, having hoB not “associated” with a structure is a LOT different that “hoB is not a structure” – subtle, but important difference. – JDA

          • Hi JDA – If Forrest came out and said that hoB was not related to or a part of any structure, would it make a difference to you? I see the hoB as being something that can last longer than any structure thereby reducing worry about strictures or anything related to a structure. F has indicated that the search could last a long time, and structures we create don’t stand the test of his time.

          • Thanks Loco – both references say “associated” – This is a big help to me. It keeps one hoB in play. This conversation has been very helpful in convincing me that POSSIBLY hoB that I was using as my primary hoB is wrong, and that something that I had considered a “Back-up” – is in-fact a better choice. Changing to the back-up in no way changes my over-all solve – it just might make it a better solve that will stand up under close scrutiny – JDA

        • JDA, When I was telling him about a recent search I’d just done and I was telling him what each of my solutions to the clues were to take me on that particular search, I told him what my wwwh was, then I told him what my take it in the canyon down was, then I told him what my not far but too far to walk was. Then I told him what my hoB was… which was a CCC cabin there at my search spot. At that point he said to me “Don’t you remember I said IT can’t be associated with a structure.” I hadn’t gotten to the rest of the clues yet. I don’t see how there can be any other interpretation to this… However, I don’t have the treasure chest so maybe you know better than me. Also, I think with him saying that to me whether you believe it literally or have a different interpretation, IMO, it means clues 3 thru 9 are fairly close together. I think that is why he could say IT…. IT is not associated with a structure.

          Please everyone don’t create a firestorm again over my comment… this is to answer JDA. I hope it helps him.

          • Thanks much Cynthia. Your words have helped me to come to a decision about my hoB. “Associated” keeps my OLD primary hoB still in play, but I have decided to go to a “Back-up” hoB that I have had as a “Back-up” for a long long time. Goint to this “back-up” in no way changes my basic solve. In fact, going to the back-up may prove to be a better one than my primary.

            My back-up is a natural feature, that will withstand the test of time. My primary was associated with a man made structure, which might not withstand the test of time.

            Thanks for your openness and honesty – You have been a big help JDA

          • JDA,

            I have accepted the fact that HoB is not a structure and have since moved on, actually found a much better one, which if I am right with my WWWH, they are very near to each other. So that is a good thing in my book.

            Unfortunately for me, it looks like I am now in need of looking for a new “no place for the meek” as well. Too bad. I thought I had found a perfect fit and clearly supported (IMO) by TTOTC.

            Thank you very much Cynthia for helping me locate a better Hob!

            By the way, disgruntled searchers writing angry email to Forrest is shameful and I’m sure you feel responsible. But please don’t let it get to you.


          • It’s not a fire storm or fighting or a spitball battle.
            All anyone is doing is trying to figure anything out..lol.. yep some of us buck heads, and normally shake hands at the end.
            So, here’s another head banger… You capitalized IT… was this fenn using an elevated voice, a use of emphasis on your part to make notice of? We’re just attempting to see how this all unfolded.
            I get the feeling the, what is IT, thread is going to explode later…

            IF “it” was emphasized during the conversation, this give more credence to; if you know hoB you’d go right to the chest, line of thinking. Meaning hoB might actually be the location of IT.. the chest.. In theory

            But then, we have the dilemma of clues in the correct order idea. So you can see why [ at least Myself ] we would like to know more…

            So to get the ball rolling for that thread… IT could mean the treasure or IT could relate to the ‘Hint” riches new and old. Which inadvertently could lead us to the word that is key.

            While were on the subject of hoB… wasn’t it said by DG fenn asked her ‘where is your home’… does this sound like hoB is where the chest lays in wait… and possibly all the clues. I mean of we’re investigating this conversation, we might as well investigate them all. right?

          • Seeker, no problem. I capitalized the word IT to emphasize Forrest used the word “It”, not hoB or the word treasure. In a few comments above, someone thought he used the word hoB and someone thought he used the word treasure when talking to me. But it was neither of them. Hope this clarifies your question.

            And the “firestorm” I alluded to isn’t about the comments from searchers on the blogs… it’s the angry emails sent to Forrest.

          • Cynthia,
            Thanks… Just one more question.
            Did he happen to say anything, anything at all, about wwwh? Any little thing, a scant of anything, something, some thing, any new or old thing… I would have settle for the blaze thing, but it seems the chat didn’t get that far..lol.

          • Cynthia – you are a good person to provide factual information about your conversation.

            It’s disappointing that anyone would send an angry email to Forrest (the firestorm you mentioned) . I hope anyone that sends an angry email to ff understands the Chase itself has its own “checks and balances”. Any searcher who has done their research should remember that Forrest once had a bit of an IOU planned as part of the chest. This was to be drawn on his bank. That’s been changed to a better “way” as is mentioned in his new book.

            At this point, anyone sending an angry email to ff shouldn’t make any plans to collect a certain portion of the trove. (a old saying about looking a gift horse in the mouth comes to mind)

            Forrest makes the rules, he made the Chase, and everyone searching should show him respect. It’s seems a little foolish for any searcher to send him an angry email – if they find the chest one day, good luck in collecting that special “remainder” of the balance. IMO

            Covert One

          • What was the original comment ‘the treasure is not associated with a structure’ or the treasure chest is not..? Can we deduct from his answer to Cynthia about hoB that none of the clues are associated with a structure?

            When he says ‘don’t you remember I said IT can’t be…’ seems to mean (nothing) there is associated with a structure.

            Or shall we be more specific as to say that -only- hoB and the chest are NAWAS, meaning they could be the same or in the same place or related to each other somehow but this revelation says nothing about other clues.

      • Hi Cynthia.

        Usage of textual criticism, states the chest is not associated.

        I’d fly with that….IMO – it is the correct way to read the phrase.

        Thanks for drilling down further.

        Good luck to you.

    • Why? Just saying it, does make it so… why is Brown capitalized to “have no relevance” even if recited.

      Ya had to read it at one point… ya had to see a word capitalized at the end of a sentence. So, are we to dismiss this fact, when we simply recite the poem from memory?

      If I say the president of the united states… does it change the fact that it’s capitalized always? the President of the United State.

      I’m not even talking about proper daily academic usages, as much as, the author of the poem deliberately capitalized this word… no relevance?

      • Hi Seeker, Mr. Fenn said a number of times, that searchers should memorize the poem. When you recite the poem to yourself from memory, I suspect that your not seeing any capital letters or punctuation. which makes a difference, but most don’t catch it, because they read the poem.

        • James,
          The very first time anyone was supposed to see the poem was within a book. The poem was never release by fenn in any other fashion… It would be interesting to pose that question to fenn;
          Did you ever consider an auto-book, and recited poem, version or does a searcher need to read/see the poem?
          Just because folks can memorize a poem, not unlike a song, doesn’t mean the deliberate act of making Brown capped is not important. I’m just not following the logic.

          I mean, I like to twist and bend the poem too. but when fenn says read the poem [memorize it, line of thinking] it was meant to be able to recall it while reading the book again, looking for information.

          Ya have to start at the ‘seen’ of the crime… {pun intended}
          In my mind, that B in the poem should be on everyone check list as to, why did he capitalize this word.
          I’ll add… I would not dismiss the capitalizing of any word in the poem… even IF it is used in a poetic fashion.
          Fenn made it very clear… he was the architect, designing, creating, blueprinting the poem, crafting it for 15 years.

          • Hi Seeker, I see your point. I see HOB as a clue, I just can’t do anything with it. So I don’t let it become a distraction.

  26. subscribe – yeah, I’m a little behind. (Watching the pre-game festivities for the Stagg Bowl while I try to catch up. NCAA D3 Football season is almost over.)

  27. Well, it looks like HOB is the last place we are directed to. From there, it’s no place for the meek, isn’t a direction, but the area around the HOB. IMO

      • Hi James, may I ask if you hoB is a structure, a forest, a region, an association to an animal, or a name of a oerson or place?


        For my hoB, it can be many things if you technically look at the way the phrase is written.

        I think some people miss the duality within the phrase and thus miss the meaning.

        Shoot…of the list above…my home of Brown can be related to grizzlies, trout, people, and the place, well, it isn’t very small.

        Welcome to Difficulty-land.

        Good luck to you.

        • Hi Tim, I’m just picking apart the poem. My idea is, that whatever the HOB is, that’s the area, to look for the blaze and the chest. And all the rest of the clues in the poem, should be in the same area. I know that’s not what others think, but that’s what I come up with. And if I was going to do another search, I would go with it., hands down. JMO

          • Hi James, Good thinking but I would look below the Home of Brown instead of in the area of it. Maybe 500 yards or so, (sound familiar.)
            Just a suggestion.

    • from
      indicating the point in space at which a journey, motion, or action starts.
      “she began to walk away from him”
      indicating the point in time at which a particular process, event, or activity starts.
      “the show will run from 10 to 2”

      For me, IMO, it feels like it IS a direction separate from HoB

      • Yes, and from below the HOB (maybe 500 yds.) is where there is no place for the meek, where the end is drawing nigh and your dry creek..

          • IMO, there is no water (most of the time) in the creek (deep ravine), that goes up in elevation to a small lake that sometimes spills over into the creek.

            At the entrance of the lake are large boulders that are heavy loads, and if you’ve been wise you wouldn’t travel up this creek. You would find an easier way to this place and in doing so you will find the blaze. The blaze is also above this creek or ravine, so when you get there… look down into the ravine. It’s there in some little hidey spot. The marvel gaze is up at the blaze so don’t stay there very long… just go down in the ravine a get it!

          • HaydukeCC,
            Like ManOwar explication A glacier made lake. { knowledge of geography, might help} Drains into a seasonal creek {summer time hiding of the chest} down the canyon. NFBTFTW may refer to the hike to the lake which means the hike is too far because hoB is below the lake.
            “From there” no paddle means crossing the creek [ now nothing more than a narrow passage eroded by water ] to no place for the meek reference… This might be where the idea of looking at maps as if you’re putting an X on it. Hike from the car to the lake [ but not needed if you know hoB ] because you would pass hoB on the way to the lake and all the other clues as well.

            But we need to nail down the correct lake [ if that is what WWWH referrers to ] in the correct location.
            I ahve wondered why fenn could answer Becky’s Q&A because the blaze is more on a map and we need to know this first… The location of the X, to located it in the field, known of from the poem. The question never asked about maps… and if needed… fen couldn’t answer the question without the missing piece of information.

          • Seeker –

            In the Rocky Mountains all lakes west of the Continental Divide are natural and all lakes east of it are man made reservoirs.


          • Lugnutz
            I think you are incorrect on this one. Yellowstone lake the largest high altitude lake is not west of the continental divide and it along with all the lakes in the Beartooth mountains drain eventually into the Yellowstone River and eventually into the Gulf of Mexico.

          • Hi Frank –

            Believe it or not it moved.
            Originally it drained to the Pacific via the Snake river.

            It’s a general note for you. Natural lakes west of the CD, Reservoirs made by damming east ov the CD.

            Don’t go looking for lakes to stump me just notice as your looking for your treasure.



          • Hi pdenver, I don’t see it in a floodplain, I see the (sometimes) dry creek runs lateral to the river and is rising above the river as it goes back and up to the lake. When is it is running with water it is because the lake is overflowing from the snow and ice melting in the spring. In either case, dry or wet, you don’t go up there. There is another way to get to JHLAWH.

      • Lugnutz,
        I am only hoping to educate you on what is obviously a misunderstanding on your part. There are over 300 lakes in the Beartooth mountains and none are manmade and all drain eventually into the Yellowstone. Look it up.

        • Frank –

          I’m not going to argue about this or try to look at the map or decide whther a lake is alpine or not, etc.

          It’s a general note. If you are standing at the continental divide the lakes to the west are natural and to the east are man made. I provide that as it may be helpful to people. Another way to say this would be.

          HEY if Forrest is including a body of water in this search, IT WILL BE WEST of the CD.

          One of the lakes favored by a prominent old chaser was created by damming in Fenn’s lifetime, and so, probably won’t meet the test of time.


          • Lug,

            If I may interject, you said, ” If you are standing at the continental divide the lakes to the west are natural and to the east are man made.” which is a broad statement and not factual. Since when does the west side of the continental contain only natural lakes? There are natural lakes on either side.

            Just say’n

          • Hi Charlie.

            You wrote:


            If I may interject, you said, ” If you are standing at the continental divide the lakes to the west are natural and to the east are man made.” which is a broad statement and not factual. Since when does the west side of the continental contain only natural lakes? There are natural lakes on either side.

            Just say’n”

            Okay – I can understand this viewpoint. But did you also remember that there are two Continental Divisions?

            If you have then Lug knows it two and is only making a true statement….while not really mentioning another aspect of the truth that would further define the initial meaning that was thought of by you…..thinking only East and West.

            So – while we are all in Geology 101 together:
            – The CD does have man-made lakes to the East and West
            – But does the CD have man-made lakes to the east and west if you are at the North/South Continental division line.

            This is something new to me….I’ve always though the “Great Divide” was through the “center” of the US some where….in the Plains states.


            yet….according to this map…..I’ve now noticed the Great Divide doesn’t even come close to a truer E/W location…..it seems to be much farther west.

            Although…..I did notice they both meet at a northern point in MT.

            Hmmm….good stuff and very interesting…..east or west is where we need to decide now.

            Cheers to you and good luck to us!

          • I totally agree CharlieM – Lugnutz is WRONG on this one. Is Yellowstone Lake man made? There are hundreds of lakes in Wyoming that are ALL glacier fed and natural – not man made. Not sure where you got your info Lug, but you are not correct on this one – I will bet you a bottle of whatever you drink – JDA

  28. Merry Christmas All;

    Well, Santa brought me a fantastic gift for Christmas!

    For those of you that have followed my exploits for the past two years, you know that I first learned of the chase December 23, 2015. I quickly settled on a WWWH in Wyoming. Followed the Canyon Down to my hoB etc. I was happy with my hoB, but after about 6 months, found a back-up very close to my primary hoB.

    Over the next year the importance I placed on the primary and secondary hoB began to balance out.

    Early this month Cynthia posted something that said, essentially, that Forrest had indicated to her that there was no structure associated with hoB. Since my primary hoB had a structure associated with it, I had to fall back to my secondary. My old primary might not have withstood the “Test of Time”, where-as my secondary would.

    My secondary was fair, but I just could not figure out EXACTLY why Forrest would have called it his hoB.

    I developed Theory #1, and it was OK, but not great. I developed Theory #2 that was much better, but had no proof.

    Forrest has said that there are “hints” sprinkled in TTOTC, in the TEXT, that would help with the clues.

    Well, there ARE!!! I found three little words, hidden within one of the stories that explains EXACTLY why Forrest called this land feature his hoB. Sprinkled within this story he even provided conformation that my chosen area was correct.

    WOW – what more could one ask for for Christmas. THANKS Forrest for sprinkling these few words within one of your stories that “Put the bow” on my Christmas package.

    Good luck to all in the coming search year and TRY to STAY SAFE – JDA

    • Glad somebody has it figured out!! .

      I’m stuck on do I walk from the 500ft spot or the 200ft spot. Lol. From 200ft would be safer I guess…..hmmmm.

      Well…..Amazon. Com…..snowshoes.

      No time to drink hot chocolate now.haha

      JDA, you still in Wyoming? Your sounding dangerous!!

      It feels good when things click on a solve…Merry Christmas.

    • P.S. Big boys believe, that’s why we stay at home and wait for the perfect gift from Santa. Am Ever-Grateful old man and FENN-atic – JDA

    • Merry Christmas JDA. Going to be a long winter so I may just take all the “Claus and clues” you have provided and find your search area! 🙂

        • Claus = Santa brought you 3 little words in a story from the TTOTC book so I will re-read that at some point to see if the same pop out at me.

          Clues = You have 2 natural blazes followed by a series of man-made ones which exist in a canyon which you enter by way of your singular parking area from which you walk through your numerous trips through the poem…

          You’re right, JDA, probably not any “Claus or clues” in any of that. 🙂

        • JDA,

          I too have what is an excellent hoB, with a little imagination I can see 4 different blazes. I had to discount them because there is no need to be brave, however there is no wood below.

          In the TTOTC a word that could be very well be a blaze. I however discounted because its a structure of sorts because of what F said the TC was not associated to a structure, but I will keep it as a #2. My primary is an excellent blaze as after the hoB the stanza after fits without any effort.

          I would like to think I have very good imagination because I’m an artist at heart. I’m kind of like F, I can see things in the most obscure things, mostly the things I see is not deliberate they just jump out.

          Never the less after finding a hoB the rest became easier and I found one clue that points to some humor relating to one word, “your”, I had to chuckle.

          Spring needs to come very soon, I hope I won’t be disappointed, which ever way it goes I will have fun below the hoB.

          Merry Christmas 🙂

          • What I can see as something being fun for all..,,why we wait out for another season to come…..

            Forrest should make a post that says something like this in the late Spring…..

            “Are you ready? Alright!! Get set!! Go and be safe!”

            Merry HannahKwanzMas!!

    • JDA,

      I found a similiar gift the other day in the poem, but it took me to a different state than yours. I look at it as new beginning, so who knows where I’ll end up.

      Even though it’s not my word that is key, it is very closely related and has unlocked an enormous door, one I peaked through earlier this year but failed to make the connection at that time.

      Good thing we all have plenty of time to ponder our findings over the winter AND recover from the over-eating I’m reasonably certain is plaguing most of us today.

      Happy trails and again, Merry Christmas all.


      • Pinatubocharlie,
        If your ‘special gift’ leads you to different state than Wyoming, then in my opinion you are 100 % closer to the chest than the searchers looking in Wyoming.

          • Hi JDA,
            I have nothing against Wyoming. I never been there but I imagine it must be beautiful out there. In my opinion though, it is the least likely state the chest is in. I did read some of your posts and agree with some of your ideas but not on the state that you are so transfixed on. I wish you all the best though.

        • Hey there LtleIndianGrl,

          I certainly feel like I’m closer now after finding what I believe is clear direction to WWWH and how to interpret the poem. That idea has taken me to what I believe is an outstanding Brown, but I haven’t found the right home yet because I haven’t gone right to the chest yet per his ATF comment. More homework (read, study, think, interpret) in that regard.

          The one thing that has been bugging me for some time now is his ATF to MAKE ALL the lines cross? “The treasure is out there waiting for the person who can make all the lines cross in the right spot.” Business Insider, 2/9/2017.

          This infers to me we must choose the correct (precise) points in order to draw those precise lines, which in turn infers possible multiple choices, hence at least 2 points. Because of “all”, my assumption is one line/clue is drawn and they must intersect……..somewhere. But again, we have to MAKE them cross. And IMO, the length those lines can vary a lot.


          • Pinatubocharlie;

            Just my opinion, but I think you are taking this quote far to literally. Forrest talks about putting an “X” on a map, indicating (to me at least) the place where Indulgence is secreted. I do NOT think that the clues (in and of themselves) cause you to place an “X”
            on a map because you actually cross a trail or path or place that you had previously been at. JMO – JDA

          • JDA,

            I hear what you’re saying, but he’s the one who said ALL the lines. I’m just trying to figure out how to draw those lines from each clue. As I think I’ve posted before, I’m seeing 2s, pairs, and twins in what I believe to be hints. That’s how I envision being able to proceed with confidence.

            I can’t draw a line with one point, but I can with 2 points. That’s why I starting to think each clue has two solutions connected by a line, BUT, that line might extend beyond the one or both points.

            Hope that makes some degree of sense though I’m sure you’re not buying what I’m trying to sell so to speak.


            I believe the above answers your question and your though regarding lat/long has crossed my mind several times, especially considering military and civilian applications, but that being said, I’m not that kind of numbers guy, though I certainly believe numbers are involved. More along the lines of what I mentioned above.


          • I’m not talking numbers…..I was talking lines…map lines…long/lat lines on a map….grid lines…etc…no numbers needed, just lines on a map that form an “X”…

          • IMO Pina.

            Two lines intetsecting…one lat and one long will create an “X” on a map.

            Another thought I had is…..what about the land features….maybe they create an “X” at the spot. Like a line of trees and a stream.

            Imagination does have its benefits.


          • Metaphorically speaking, the lines can cross from the poem to the good map—we are supposed to marry the two afterall. Just food for thought.

          • Bowmarc,

            Totally agree. The lines I’m trying to draw are on a map.


          • Pinatubocharlie,
            What kinda “lines” are you referring to exactly?
            I know the quote.. I want to know what you think they are.

          • Pina…Good quote from Fenn! Another great example of a well thought out choice of words to keep things interesting. Fenn knows folks are approaching his poem from every imaginable angle(except his) and turning this into a science fair project.
            Imagine the burst if he said something like…the one who dots all their I’s and crosses all their T’s ! AHA ! There’s that IT word again!
            All joking aside…I think that statement could possibly be just saying that when all is said and done…all of the clues are closely related and have direct bearing on each other, and the hidey spot. One clue will lead to the next and so on…and un-mistakenly point right @ ground zero.

          • Ken,

            You very well may be right, but for the moment it’s up to me to prove or disprove that line of thought. That said, based on what I’m finding after that gift last week, my interpretation is the clues are certainly related to one another.

            Ground zero – that took me back to a deep rabbit hole I ventured into last Spring, taking me to a great WWWH, a possible HoB, & a decent “in the wood”. I just couldn’t make it flow like the current path I’m on.

            Take care……….Pinatubocharlie

          • Pina;

            Because I see the poem as a circle, I go through it once – point-to-point. I can see these points on a map. I go through the poem once, and do not find indulgence.
            I start again, but from where I ended, and create a NEW map – point-to point. So, my approach is different than yours. I do not see two parallel “trails” if you will, with some individual legs being longer than the other.

            Good luck with your approach. Who knows? It just might be the approach that works – JDA

          • Actually JDA, I’m not “all in” as they say regarding my 2 point line theory. I recognize I very well could be wrong, but as I said just a bit ago, I need to convince myself one way or the other.

            So if I fail in this approach, then my backup will be very similiar, if not identical to yours. My thought being one level is new riches and the other is old riches.

            For the time being, my theory is old and new are points on a line simply because he said make them all cross.

            Take care my friend. Pinatubocharlie

            P.S. – my son bought a racing drone similiar to the one used in that YouTube link I posted of the guy flying in and around a moving freight train. He’s having a blast flying it, but not to the level in that video.

          • Pinatubocharlie,
            In my solution, the lines cross in two places. The first crossing forms an X, but I don’t think the chest is in this spot. I believe that the correct poem solution leads to a second crossing (perpendicular this time) and this is where the chest is located. In my opinion this is the solution to the last clue ‘brave and in the wood’.

          • Pinatubocharlie;

            If the peg doesn’t fit. find a hole where it will fit, or start whittling 🙂 Just joshin’ Ya’

            Keep pluggin’ away my friend. JDA

            P.S.Glad you son is having so much fun. I wish I had the bucks and the gumption to buy one and teach myself how to fly it – Oh well – such is life – JD

          • I prefer a smooth factory fit as I was never very good at whittling, plus I wood cut myself. Oh, maybe that’s what those gloves he tells us to bring are for.



    • Go get ‘er JDA, Thanks for this post, and all all the others. I’m on pins and needles waiting for you to sculpt those 3 little words out of Fenn’s granite walls and show us what you see there.

        • JDA, Stay calm, stay healthy, and confide to a trusted family member just in case. The right two people can keep a secret, or, keep a journal.

          • My search team, and my son in Virginia know my secrets – just in case. With a wee bit of luck someone in this team will find her – hope it is all of us. What a thrill for all! JDA

            Thanks for the reminder though – JDA

    • I would consider the following from JDA a clue and not a hint…I found three little words, hidden within one of the stories that explains EXACTLY why Forrest called this land feature his hoB.

      Just an idea from using f’s definition of what a clue does for us which is gets us closer to the tc.

      If f explained exactly why he called JDA’s land feature (if JDA’s hoB is correct) his hoB that obviously gets one closer to the tc than the correct wwwh and canyon down. So, I wouldn’t consider it a hint.

      • FD;

        From wwwh I took the canyon down, (Clue #1) NFBTFTW. (Clue #2)
        The next “clue” for me was to find the hoB. (Clue #3)
        I found it from the poem, because of the distance traveled (NFBTFTW) I just did not know why Forrest had called this land feature his hoB. The “Hint” I found told me the “WHY” Forrest called this land feature “HIS” hoB – So, for me it was a “Hint” (which got me closer to understanding the “Clue” of hoB. I hope that this explains my thinking – JDA

        • Also, the fact that I found it in TTOTC made it a “Hint”, and not a “Clue” – The nine “Clues” are in the poem, the “Hints” are in the poem and also sprinkled in TTOTC (and TFTW and OUAW and other postings by Forrest such as SB’s etc.) NO “CLUES” outside of the poem – so says Forrest – JDA

          • JDA, I’m going off of f’s definition of a clue, not where one is found. I would say that f’s definition of a clue can’t change. So that means the definition pertains to TTOTC book too.

            My write up explains why I think that.

          • FD;
            Please quote “Forrest’s definition of a clue” – I am not aware of such a definition. Thanks. Could you also provide the source – Thanks again – JDA

          • Hi JDA:

            From Mysterious Writings (May 2015):

            “There are hints in my book that will help you with the clues, but a clue will point you toward the treasure chest and a hint will just help you with the clues, if you can understand that. f”

          • FD;

            From the cheat sheet:
            Fenn has said:
            ♦ There are nine clues in the poem.
            Q: Are there clues in the TTOTC book? “Yes, because the poem is in the book.”
            All of the information you need to find the treasure is in the poem. The chapters in my book have very subtle hints but are not deliberately placed to aid the seeker. Good luck in the search.”

            But this one MAY support your argument:
            Q: Are there clues in the TFTW book? “Yes, because the map is in the book.”

            In this quote, he uses Clues and hints Interchangeably – so. I ghuess you COULD be right???

            “There are nine CLUES in the poem, and the clues are in consecutive order. If you want to find the treasure chest – you have my book there – I’ll tell you how to do it. Read the book just normally … the poem and the rest of the book, and then go back and read the poem 6, 8, 10 times – study every line, every word. Then after you do that, read the book again, slowly, with the idea of looking for CLUES or HINTS, that are in the book that will help you follow the Clues. You can find the chest with just the CLUES, but there are HINTS IN THE BOOK that will help you with the CLUES.” f

            I think I will stick with the 9 CLUES in the poem, and that hints found elsewhere (including in the poem) that will help me with the CLUES. JMO – JDA

          • Don’t forget this one, if we can believe Douglas Preston..”The final clue, he said, would be where they found his car: in the parking lot of the Denver Museum of Nature and Science….” From the into to OUAW.

          • Thanks, Zap, for the definitions.

            If I discovered hidden within one of the stories something that explains EXACTLY why Forrest called a land feature a clue like canyon down, hoB, meek place, my creek or whatever else one considers to be a clue location after wwwh then I’d say it’s the same problem. It’s a clue cause it got you closer to the tc than the first clue.

            I don’t think searchers have put a lot of thought into that dilemma and found a logical path to go foward with.

          • From all of the responses, it is obvious that there is no consensus as to what is a clue, and what is a hint – even to Forrest. He seems to intermix the two terms pretty frequently. Maybe that is why we are all still confused. I KNOW what my definition is, I can only hope that it is the same as the one Forrest used when creating the poem.

            When asked, Forrest said something to the effect that once finished, he counted the clues, and there were nine. He didn’t plan it that way, that is just how it turned out. Happy Hunting all – JDA

          • Maybe you all might benefit from looking up the actual definitions, and not just Forrest’s interpretation of what a clue of hint does.

          • The Wanderer;

            I agree that looking up the definitions of words is valuable, but what good is looking up the definitions when Forrest intermixes them? – as in:
            Then after you do that, read the book again, slowly, with the idea of looking for CLUES or HINTS, that are in the book that will help you follow the Clues.

            Definitions don’t help here do they?
            noun: clue; plural noun: clues

            a piece of evidence or information used in the detection of a crime or solving of a mystery.
            noun: hint; plural noun: hints

            a slight or indirect indication or suggestion.

            MOST of the time I would agree – Now, is that a clue, a hint, or what? JDA

          • Well, I’d suggest one take the route of using f’s latest words on the topic for what is a clue and what a hint is. They obviously aren’t the same thing.

          • FD;
            Why be so secretive? Why not just quote what he said? I have no idea what his most recent definition is. JDA

          • JDA, you’re assuming that I know his latest words on the topic of the definition of a clue. I don’t. I assume he always gives the same definition that Zap provided.

            I think that’s a different thing than when f was interchanging the words hints and clues in some of the quotes you brought up. I’d think he’s cleaned that up in later versions to say there’s hints in the book that help with the clues. But the definition of a clue has never changed. That’s why I suggest some look further into the matter and figure it out for themselves. But to say that since you found something in the book doesn’t make it hint because you found it there. You have to go by the definition of a clue and hint.

          • FD;

            Not trying to be nit-picking but if you do not know what the latest definition given by Forrest is – why did you say. “Well, I’d suggest one take the route of USING FORRECT’S LATEST WORDS ON THE TOPIC for what is a clue and what a hint is. They obviously aren’t the same thing. Sure sounded to me like you knew what his latest words were – Just sayin’ JDA

          • JDA, I said that for many reasons. I think f has been consistent in defining what a clue is and what a hint is. I think that is different than the point you brought up which is f has intermingled using those two terms in some of his statements. I also gave that advise cause it has worked on other topics in the Chase. The latest words from f on topics like mountains north of Santa Fe versus Rocky Mountains is an example. Narrowing down to the 4 states left is an example. There’s been plenty of ATF statements from f that add value and are more pertinent than the original information.

            It makes sense for each to use all the information how they want best. So if others don’t agree with the theory I brought up they can still look for whatever they think the last words f has spoken on a subject.

            One other point is I can recall f often say I never said that to things that searchers have attributed to him. I think f speaks in specific details that many, including me, don’t always pick up on.

        • JDA – I recall your ‘too far to walk’ distance was more than 5 miles. Is that still so?

          I hope I remembered that correctly JDA.

          • The preface to “Too Far to Walk”. Forrest describes a float down the Madison River, a float of about 10 miles, and he describes this as now “Too Far to Walk”.
            Yes, my hoB is almost exactly 10 miles down a canyon from my WWWH. – JDA

        • Hi JDA…you wrote…

          From wwwh I took the canyon down, (Clue #1) NFBTFTW.

          We already know clue #1 is WWWH.

          are you saying WWWH is only a hint?

          Or are you saying WWWH it is a clue, but not the first one? Which one?

          Or are you saying WWWH is both a clue and a hint?

          Or is WWWH neither?

          Not many choices to determine, huh?

          Interesting….because after reading your post, I figured you seem to begin with it, but don’t consider it to be clue #1. It appears you think it is a hint. How?

          • Hi JDA ,

            I dont post much any longer about the Chase I have my own sight on some things and
            decided not to tell what I think .
            But since I have been on a word study of the poem , may I interject
            this presumption .
            late Middle English: variant of clew. The original sense was ‘a ball of thread’; hence one used to guide a person out of a labyrinth (literally or figuratively). Sense 1 of the noun dates from the early 17th century.

            So yes the words can be seen by all as well as the definitions.

            But it to me is not the definitions
            but the order of them .

            And not changing the poem or moving words around – or even finding words that mean the same .
            I like that f said ” what dose it matter what the words mean if the person understands them .

            First thing is; how would the person understand the words
            if no one knows how they are being used? And why would no one else understand them .

            This is a rhetorical question , because I think I can answer them a bit.

            I had told many searchers I tracked f to Denver and he disappears there.

            I said that years ago, and still I have not found the chest.

            Over 100 trips in all kinds of country .

            And my thought of that is :
            How would he hide it in the mountains and protect it from the elements.

            Any ways Merry Christmas to everyone . Hope you have a wonderful New Years .


          • Nope – I am saying that “Begin it where warm waters halt and take it in the canyon down,” = my clue #1.

            NTFBTFTW = my clue #2

            And, “Put in below the home of Brown. = my Clue #3

            All of the clues are found in stanza’s
            2, 3 and 4.

            Hints are found in stanzas 5. 6 and 1. Other hints are found in TTOTC, TFTW and OUAW plus other Forrest posts such as SB’a etc.

            Clearer I hope – JDA


  29. Last night, I thought we were talking on this thread about Lander Wyoming? And how the Original name of Lander was Brown. Does anyone know where this thread is or went?

  30. This is all in my humble opinion – IMHO

    The home of Brown is a distinct thing, and so is Brown.

    As far as I know, I am the only one saying this. Consider the words carefully. He refers to “the home of Brown”. I would love to hear the logic behind a solution for this clue (if it is a clue) which defines it as a separate item while “Brown” is not even considered.

    As I said, this is my opinion and not established fact. What is “Brown” if the “home of Brown” can be identified? I am very curious if anyone will respond at all.


    • Franklin: for my solution, sure, home of Brown is something specific, as is Brown. But Brown by itself is not a workable clue, nor is home. You need both.

    • Franklin;

      What I think you are suggesting is that “Home” is a clue, and that “Brown” is not even considered, or in other words – useless.

      I think, and that is just my opinion, that this logic is flawed in two respects.
      1) If “Home” is the clue, it brings to mind a structure, which Forrest has said that “hoB” is not associated with a structure. Could a beaver dam or beaver “home” be your “Home”? If it is, is that a structure? Not made by man, but still built, so I would say it is disqualified.

      Home can also mean something like birthplace. “Put in below “somethings” birthplace or place someone or something grew up. What is that “Something”? “Brown defines what that “something is, and you are about to throw it away.

      2) “Brown” is not even considered. Why would Forrest have put it in the poem, and even brought attention to it by capitalizing it if it were not important to the correct solve? I would say, just my opinion, that “Brown” is VERY important. I personally would be VERY hesitant to discard it. JMO – JDA

        • JDA,

          When I said “not even considered” I meant on this blog by most of the posters. I do not see much reference to “Brown” being a separate and distinct thing (or entity). Just about everyone thinks “Brown” is a person somehow. I do not see it as a person at all. However, as you said, it is important and should not be discarded. I agree it is very important. All of this is just my opinion, but I do not believe “Brown” is a person.


        • Franklin: if you mean Brown is a specific historical figure with that last name, I agree: pretty bad idea. Too blatant, and also dependent on information that I would classify as “special knowledge” for all the Browns I see searchers post on blogs. Two strikes.

          • Thanks for that and I agree. In addition to the knowledge being specialized, it is pure speculation to think the same knowledge would be available in 1,000 years, or even 500 years. Somehow this thing “Brown” must be something that can still be identified a long time from now. Again, my opinion, but I also do not believe “Brown” refers to a lake or river full of German Brown Trout. Too many environmental changes over time for that explanation. Imagination and resolve, a good map and/or GE will be sufficient.

          • Franklin;

            You say: “Somehow this thing “Brown” must be something that can still be identified a long time from now.

            I agree

            Again, my opinion, but I also do not believe “Brown” refers to a lake or river full of German Brown Trout.

            I agree.

            Too many environmental changes over time for that explanation.

            I agree

            Imagination and resolve, a good map and/or GE will be sufficient.

            Not quite – Add a very special “Hint” in TTOTC and I will agree – JMO – JDA

          • Yep, Franklin, the whole brown trout idea is quite peculiar, but I know many searchers go with it, despite the capitalization.

        • I have to admit that my first solve location at the Toltec Gorge relied on the Brown Trout idea but after reviewing this over and over again and in light of the previous clues in Stanza #2; eventually I came to understand that Brown Trout was NOT the correct interpretation for figuring out “home of Brown.”

          I will share however that hoB has two correct interpretations, one literal and one figurative.

          The Redneck with 12 kids and a pickup truck could definitely figure out the one interpretation and it would be sufficient to aid them in correctly finding the treasures general location…


          • PS and yes the correct interpretation for “home of Brown” will most likely exist for hundreds of years into the future – both the literal and figurative interpretations should stand the test of time…

            When Forrest discusses the idea that geography could impact the accuracy of his clues in a 1000 years; he is referring most specifically to creeks and warm waters. These are geographical features most effected in the millennial time frame…


      • In the poem, I think “home “ refers the location where something or someone lives. The implication being that it or they currently live at the location, as opposed to a location where it or they used to live. In this case, we are looking for the “home of Brown”. The question is, why is Brown capitalized?

        • I believe that “Brown” is or was a person’s name, hence the capitalization. I do not
          believe “Brown” refers to a crayon color
          or trout or bears or cliffs or stream temper-
          atures or mineral deposits etc. etc.

          Here is my reasoning: whenever anyone
          has mentioned to FF about him BURYING
          the treasure he has always corrected them
          to say he HID it (it may or may not be buried.)

          In a 4/2/2013 interview (tarryscant.com) a
          reporter Jennifer London said,
          “… there are references to water, there is
          a reference to Brown’s house (sic). Who’s

          Fenn: “There’s references to wood.”

          London: “But you didn’t answer my question,
          who is Brown?”

          Fenn: “Well, that’s for you to find. If I told
          you that, you’d go right to the chest.”

          Fenn did not disabuse her of her premise
          that “Brown” is a “who” i.e., a person. He
          could have said something like, “I never
          said “Brown” is a person,” or ” what makes
          you think that “Brown” is a person?” etc.
          Instead, FF said, “Well, that’s for you to
          find” (out) (who is Brown?)

          I interpret this to mean that FF agreed with
          her assumption that “Brown” is a person’s
          name. Your interpretation may differ.
          Happy trails.


          • D. Crockett: too big a clue for Forrest to disabuse the woman of the notion that Brown is a person, living or dead. You need to ask yourself how “Brown” can refer to a specific person (dead or alive) and yet have the knowledge of that individual’s existence be common knowledge. Awfully short list, and in my opinion none of them relevant.

          • Zap,

            Perhaps I am misunderstanding your reference to “common knowledge”, but if you are saying Brown must be exactly that, then I guess I have to disagree, because what may be common to you may not be to someone else for many reasons. Some that come to mind are age, heritage, education, ethnicity, religious, profession, etc. and I’m not talking about specialized knowledge.

            Good examples include, his girls not knowing who Clark Gable was, or that he didn’t know what being “canned” meant when a boy. Though I see them all the time, I didn’t know what a kippa was until I looked up the word one day because I wanted to know what it meant. I had enough sense to enlighten myself, but I would not call it common sense.


          • D. Crockett,
            Sure, Brown could be a person, or a place or a thing. Or all three…

            We have many things to think about;
            ~If you knew hoB you’d go right to the chest… But…
            ~You don’t have anything without the first clue… then again…
            ~Why would we be concern about wwwh if we knew what hoB is… and yet we have been told…
            ~ You can’t find the blaze without knowing the first clue, wwwh, right?

            fenn’s never corrected interviewers who stated “house of brown” or “Brown house”… why would he correct them if they thought Brown was a person? or a building? or a thing?

            The interesting thing is fenn mentioning the reference to “wood.”
            Was that a hint -?- to what Brown refers to? Or an attempt to blow off the question about a clue?

            If we knew what hoB is… why wouldn’t wwwh be just as or more important of a clue? Seems like, by those two comments hoB is more important than wwwh, right?

            YET… fenn repeats, Looking for later clues is a waste of time… we need to dwell on wwwh more, we need to nail that clue down… right?

            However, we have another conundrum… all the clues can be solved at home? Yes, in theory, but not in practice…
            So it seems we shouldn’t need any of the first clues if we can figure out [lets say] 5 thru 9, or even the last clue.
            Well, except fenn said he followed the clues to hid the chest, hmmm.

            Hold the press! What? how can that be?
            Where does the “Planning” and “Observation” fenn tells us we need to do in order to solve the poem’s clues??? AND why the heck, when folks are on site with deciphered clues, they don’t know what it is their looking at…?… as they walk by all the clues and the location of the chest.

            I find it interesting with all of our chit chats about what we think, this or that is… and not much is mentioned about why; “planning and observation” is as much a need as; “thinking and analyzing” and lets not forget “imagination”
            LOL when do we use that? deciphering clues, or in the field, or looking at the “right map” with all the details?

            There has to be common ground to deciphering a representation to a clues is [ such as the many wwwh or canyons, or places the meek wouldn’t go or the billions of Blazes, etc.] And knowing what we see in the field… that doesn’t see so obvious.

            But… it seems more apparent as the years go one, having a representation of a clue reference is not enough. It would seem we need to actually decipher the “physical place” itself. Which can only be done on site, with a correct ‘complete’ solution, prior to going on site, and then have a ‘completed’ solve by observing what exactly it is we see from our properly deciphered clues.

            So, IF hoB is a person… how does that work?
            Birth place, place of death, buried?
            Mr. Brown’s home??
            Which doesn’t seem likely, per Cynthia comment of her recalling fenn implied ~ hoB can’t be a structure…

            What can home of Brown refer to that “several” “more than several” “many searchers” walk right by and not know?… lol… does size matter in regards to hoB?

            Just because fenn didn’t correct an interviewer about “who” or Who’s “house” doesn’t call out to me that it must be a person… cuz we still need to know what that clue ‘looks like’ in the field, right?

            End of commentary….

          • Who is not observing and planning.

            * in his best Gary Coleman voice”

            “What chu talkin’ ’bout Seeker?”


          • Tim,
            What is your Planning and what are you observing?
            Seem to me, anyone that has deciphered, solved, indicated the correct clues didn’t know or possible even seen it the way fenn might.
            It doesn’t take a rocket scientist to read the many quotes to get the gist that there is more to a clue than just picking out what it refers to.

            I mean, we have many ideas floating around about wwwh as a river or rivers… and if so, what is it about that river or those rivers folks don’t know about? or any other idea of wwwh.

            How can a person be a clue reference [ such as hoB ], and still be a physical location, that searchers seem to walk right by? It as to be a physical location, because if we knew it… we’d go right to the chest. right?

            I mean, if we’re supposed to be certain of the path beforehand … Who really is, planning or observing anything?? So, what are your plans and how do you observe the clues?

            Is it just going to the location an saying… Ah ha… that’s warm waters and there’s a big hole… yep there’s hob and that scary place must be home of Mr. Meek. so I just need to follow this little brook and find fenn’s initials on a rock… That’s not observing… that’s accepting what you see and not what is.

          • Hi Seeker…thanks for the response and questions.

            You wrote:
            “what are your plans and how do you observe the clues?”

            I plan an expedition. I make sure I am prepared for that expedition. Trust me…I need to plan…..

            I observe what has been said, what is being said, how things are stated, why things are stated or spoken, and then discern the relevance of any is or can be associated to the words through textual criticism.

            So yes, there are variables….many.

            I have found a pattern. Is it accurate? Hmmm….good question. I have proven much of it with facts, so the coincidence side of things are really irrelevantbat this point.

            But….it fits well and I will doubt that no one will be able to solve all the clues without observing first, then planning secondly. I also doubt the beginning will be found unless it is told of or found by luck, like I think.

            I’ve done lots of research Seeker…..research of the clues. They are playing out….they tell me the things I need,…those directions needed in order to find the TC location.

            “Everything you need is in the poem.” f

            But that really isn’t completely true….almost true…..because we do need to use other things to solve the poem’s meaning.

            But…..it is true, because all the “nouns” are important, so they help with the decipering.

            Plan to decipher the meaning of the poem and then observe through textual criticism the results of the answer you plan out.

            Duality is truly evident in the deciphering. Use duality in your meanings.

            Good luck.

          • Hi PinatuboCharlie: with respect to home of Brown, and indeed all of the clues, what I’m suggesting is that I don’t think anyone needs to go to the library or search online for information (whether general or specialized) in order to solve the poem. Between the poem, the proper map(s), and some of the well-known (mostly exclusionary) hints from Forrest, the searcher in my opinion has all the information they need to put the pieces together.

          • But Zap,

            He said “you can’t ignore any of the nouns in that poem.”. I am not a walking dictionary and therefore forced to words, their origin, prior usage back in the day, etc.

            And I’ve learned a lot and honestly believe we are LLC being taken to school by a master teacher. He learned from his father well.


          • Zap –

            Haven’t you done extensive research yourself?

            How do you know now that you did or didn’t know what you now know when you started to chase?

            How can you be certain?


          • Zap,

            I understand your point, but my position remains unchanged. That background and personal experiences in life influence perception and interpretation.


          • Hi PC — clearly many searchers believe that potentially unusual or obscure uses of words play a part in deciphering the poem; I’m just not one of them. I firmly believe the poem is straightforward and solvable by the redneck in Texas or the little girl in India for whom English is a second language. I think people get attracted to the idea that there is some off-the-wall idiomatic word usage going on that we have to figure out because Forrest says he looked up words and their meanings when crafting his poem. But I suggest that Forrest’s reasons for doing so may have had nothing to do with increasing the difficulty of the poem.

          • Gotta say it, when did f say hoB was a clue? Zap, you keep saying it’s a clue, where did f say or confirm this?
            Since we are talking Brown and structures and wood, maybe f is just pointing out Brown rot. Maybe the chest is hidden under a tree with Brown rot, and that line is in future tense. It wouldn’t be a clue, just an observation. To say that line is a clue is force fitting a solve. It is too general of a comment to actually be solved. hoB is not a clue. If you could go right to the chest if you knew hoB, and it is only the supposed 3rd or 4th clue, why would you need clues 5-9? Place names change, people’s names, lol, forget it, if hoB is so tightly wound with the chest, how can any of that even be considered?

            Seeker, The interesting thing is fenn mentioning the reference to “wood.”
            Was that a hint -?- to what Brown refers to? Or an attempt to blow off the question about a clue? Right….
            If you knew hoB you’d go right to the chest. Right…
            How could hoB be a clue when it is right at the chest? Being that it is the 8th line, don’t think the chase is over at the 8th line of the poem.

          • Hi charlie: Forrest has never explicitly said “home of Brown” is a clue, but he has certainly suggested it:

            Female interviewer: “You say begin it where warm waters halt and take it in the canyon down. Not far, but too far to walk. Put in below the home of Brown. That seems like a couple of clues to me.”

            Forrest: “That sounds like three or four to me.”

            Since we know WWWH is a clue, where are the other two or three clues in that stanza she quoted, in your opinion?

            Brown is the only capitalized word in the poem that doesn’t begin a line or require capitalization like “I” or “I’ve.” So I would tend to think that if it’s *not* a clue, I would have to classify it as a red herring, because any normal person would assume it’s a clue due to that capitalization.

          • Hi Lugnutz: sure, I’ve done my share of research (much of which was totally unnecessary — like the thousand-plus hours of topo map grid searching through 3 out of 4 states). I even typed in all of TTOTC on my computer so that I would have a searchable soft copy.

            But nearly all of my research over the last year has been cataloging Forrest’s hints (or at least what I believe are his hints). At this point, it’s mostly for my amusement and a bit of OCD thoroughness. Those hints didn’t help me one bit in coming up with my solution(s). But they did make me feel good about the solution(s) I generated.

            So one of things I do wonder about is whether a searcher (with the correct solution) would have the necessary confidence in it to commit time and $$ toward a BOTG search if they had only the poem, maps, and Forrest’s ATF comments. Personally, I lean toward “no.” I know Forrest has said you don’t need the books, but without all the book hints I don’t know whether I’d pull the trigger.

          • Zap –

            I am asking if you can tell what is common vs specialized knowledge in your own chase. Specifically if you no longer espouse of your research, are you confident that none of what you learned was necessary?


          • Hi Lugnutz: I am confident no specialized knowledge went into my solution. All the answers to the clues were staring me in the face on the map. I just had to think in the right way.

            Of course I unavoidably learned all kinds of wonderful new things in the last 2 1/2 years, like the difference between “For Whom the Bell Tolls” and “A Farewell to Arms,” Tony Bennett song lyrics, Invictus, T. S. Eliot’s Little Gidding, quotes that Einstein did and did not say, that Hopalong Cassidy wore a black hat and not a white one, a Babylonian fishing saying, and so on. But none of those things gave me WWWH.

            What I can’t be sure of is whether just reading Forrest’s books and Scrapbooks gave me subconscious insights into how the solution should unfold. But I never went to a dictionary, or read up on Lewis & Clark or Joseph Meek or Captain Jim Bridger or Molly Brown.

          • Exactly Zap, it’s too easy. Any normal person would think it’s a clue. Any normal person would think you “put in” somewhere. Not too many are going to think that line is written in the future tense. Think about it, I know you will, before you rebut,
            “If you knew hoB you’d go right to the chest”.
            They are tied together, but hoB is in the 8th line of the poem.
            “Female interviewer: “You say begin it where warm waters halt and take it in the canyon down. Not far, but too far to walk. Put in below the home of Brown. That seems like a couple of clues to me.”
            Forrest: “That sounds like three or four to me.”

            Let’s say 3, this makes hoB the 3rd clue, Congrats, you are right at the chest, nothing more to do…

            Let’s say 4. How is f not sure if someone has it correct or not? And again, congrats, game over.

            I do not believe we should try to distinguish what a clue is. We cannot read f’s mind, if we designate hoB as a clue, we force it to a solve. Until f says it is a clue, we have to think it’s not. If you are at the chest at hoB, then what is drawing nigh? why do we go to a place that is no place for the meek? Why have we found the blaze?
            Brown Rot is a good example, I’m not saying that it is it, but it puts reading that line into future tense more plausible. He never said that hoB would throw off a searcher, with all the possibilities it could be, it’s just too generalized to be a clue at that junction of your path. People find some wwh near a canyon then look for something that would constitute Brown. That is just not the way to go about it.

          • Hi charlie: the flaw in your logic is that you think the chest and home of Brown are co-located, or so close to one another that if you were at Forrest’s home of Brown, you couldn’t help but find the chest. But you are basing this “fact” on a single flippant response by Forrest to a persistent reporter’s questioning, which I think is a mistake. If instead she had asked multiple times, “But where do warm waters halt?” he could have said the same thing — if I told you that you’d go right to the chest. On the scale of the Rockies, that’s essentially a true statement: he’d be putting you practically on top of it. So of course he isn’t going to answer those sorts of questions.

          • Zap, I’m using that comment as support, not basing it on it. I’m saying that the 8th line could be read in the future tense, like he’s in the canyon, looks out far ahead, and knows it’s put in below the hoB. Yes, the chest is close to the hoB. That is why it is not a clue. My logic is right in line with his comment. YOUR flaw in YOUR logic is thinking hoB is a clue. Take the ATF comment away, doesn’t matter, the fact is we don’t know hoB is a clue. You are now just picking things he is saying to fit your solve. If it doesn’t fit, then he must mean something else, right? F guards what he says very well, he said they basically co-exist, are you going to next tell me I’ve twisted it or read it wrong? It is what it is. There is nothing in the poem that describes the hoB. If you are walking at this point, the term “put in” would not mean to put some boat in the water, your walking, how would knowing something you are going to walk by help in getting you closer to the chest? The thing is, you cannot know it is a clue, sorry Zap, however you spin it, you only have line 5 and the blaze as clues. You can’t know you have the clues until you have the chest, so you cannot leave your house confident unless you come to the realization that you are wasting your time trying to figure the clues. If from here on out you said you were trying to solve the poem, I’d listen, but to say you have a solve because you solved all the clues, lol, how is that possible?
            My logic isn’t flawed here Zap, forgetting the clues and solving the poem is the best advise. Using a map before solving the poem will get you into a rabbit hole, trying to force a path from what the poem says at it’s face. His map comment was much later in the chase, all you need is the poem.
            But logically, to you, hoB is clue 3 or 4. Whichever, doesn’t matter. If 3, why can’t lil Indi get to it? Or is that just another “flippant” comment meant to mean nothing? If 4, why doesn’t f know if someone has it correct or not? From what I gather from reading that stanza, he has something, he’s taking that something into the canyon, and he’s putting it somewhere. You have it as he has something, takes it in the canyon, and then you have to put in somewhere to find what you still have with you. “it” is put in below the hoB. Not “you”. Or it would say, you put in below the hoB. What is being put below the hoB? “it” is. Not the searcher. Take “it” in the canyon down, not take “you” in the canyon down. So, if it is not entailing you, the searcher, to do something, then it is describing what has already been done. “it” was put in below the hoB.

          • Charlie: I’m afraid our thinking is so diametrically (diabolically in Fenn-speak) opposed that I think a mutual appreciation of each other’s ideas is probably impossible. Let me illustrate by some of our points of 100% disagreement:

            “Yes, the chest is close to the hoB. That is why it is not a clue.”

            In my opinion, solving home of Brown does not give you the treasure chest’s location. Not even close. Home of Brown is unquestionably a clue in my opinion, and if you were to take a poll on Dal’s website, I’m betting 90% or more of respondents would agree with me.

            “YOUR flaw in YOUR logic is thinking hoB is a clue.”

            As far as I’m concerned, it’s a clue. And pretty much obviously so, via multiple lines of evidence.

            “There is nothing in the poem that describes the hoB.”

            So? Why should there be? There’s nothing in the poem that describes where warm waters halt. Do you think the answers to the clues are supposed to be in the poem?

            “If you are walking at this point, the term “put in” would not mean to put some boat in the water, your walking, how would knowing something you are going to walk by help in getting you closer to the chest?”

            I ain’t walking prior to home of Brown, not that that is terribly relevant.

            “If from here on out you said you were trying to solve the poem, I’d listen…”

            You mean solve the poem on site? That ain’t happening. If I can’t solve it end-to-end from home, I don’t leave home.

            “… but to say you have a solve because you solved all the clues, lol, how is that possible?”

            I throw it back to you: how do you explain Forrest’s answer to the question of whether it is possible to solve all the clues from home?

            “But logically, to you, hoB is clue 3 or 4. Whichever, doesn’t matter.”

            Yes, it’s one of those.

            “If 3, why can’t lil Indi get to it?”

            Jeez, really? Because she has a crappy map that doesn’t show the answer to the third clue, that’s why. We’ve been over this before. Little Indy bores me.

            “From what I gather from reading that stanza, he has something, he’s taking that something into the canyon, and he’s putting it somewhere.”

            That is a bizarre reading of the poem.

            “You have it as he has something…”

            Stop right there. NO. That’s not what I believe he’s saying at all.

            “… takes it in the canyon, and then you have to put in somewhere to find what you still have with you.”

            So far off as to be unworthy of response. As I started, our ideas are so mutually exclusive as to apparently prevent any sort of sensible dialog. You are probably best off ignoring my posts.

          • Zap –

            I think you are miss-characterizing Fenn’s comments.

            Fenn clearly, as you say to 90% of pollees, is suggesting the Poem CANNOT be solved from home.

            Can you put the question and response up for me?


          • DC, You stated above: Here is my reasoning: whenever anyone
            has mentioned to FF about him BURYING
            the treasure he has always corrected them to say he HID it (it may or may not be buried.)

            I just want to point out that in this same Jennifer London interview at the 7:31 mark, FF DOES NOT CORRECT THE WORD BURIED. Jennifer asks: “How did you pick that particular spot to bury the chest?”
            FF replies: “Well, I don’t want to give too many more clues but it’s a very special place to me and otherwise I would not have done it. I mean, I could not have just taken it out and buried it in the ground some place where I didn’t know where I was.”
            Here is the YouTube link:
            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ipvIGaVt7C8. For anyone else who needs the link, it is titled Forrest Fenn’s Hidden Treasure on HDNet by Jennifer London published 4/02/2013.

            I am not suggesting that the treasure chest is buried, but there are a few interviews where ff hasn’t corrected the reporter/journalist when they used the word “buried” (this YouTube video is one of them) and every now and then, Forrest has used the word “buried”. I think one of them was on Richard Eeds but I’m not sure but other folks have posted the sources on this blog over the years.

          • Tim ~’I plan an expedition.’

            What exactly does that mean? Are you planning to bring extra socks -?- or planning utilize the clues somehow?
            fenn warns us that the path should be certain beforehand, right? Ok.. so what plans do you have for that path? Just stomping them out? I would really like to know about the “clues” planning… not so much how much it will cost you to stay at motel 8.

            You said ~ ‘I observe what has been said, what is being said, how things are stated, why things are stated or spoken, and then discern the relevance of any is or can be associated to the words through textual criticism.

            That is what we are to observe? Those are all ATF’s…
            What are we to observe in the field?
            I mean, folks are walking by clues not knowing what they are.
            The comment about ‘thinking, analyzing, planning, and observing is almost as old as the chase itself… I doubt it was meant for 8 years of SB’s and interviews or Q&A’s.

            Think about that… certainty beforehand, and go with confidence, and fenn saying the clues can be solvable at home in theory, “but not in practice…” assuming he menat from the start… 2010
            What is it that we need to plan and observe regarding the clues? Especially, if those clues can be deciphered at home, prior to a physical travel of the location.

            IF fenn needed or had to follow the clues… it seems to me that each of the 9 clues have to be understood completely and not just deciphered to what they pertain to. Other wise we just find the last clue on a map and walk to that, right?
            lol… that doesn’t seem to be working, and fenn seemingly followed the clues as well… why did he?… is this the “completed” effort to solving the poem… planning and observing the clues?!

          • Hi Seeker….let me see if I can explain…..in short….to All your questions….I’ll be brief…..

            You wrote:
            “Ok.. so what plans do you have for that path? Just stomping them out? I would really like to know about the “clues” planning… not so much how much it will cost you to stay at motel 8.”

            I have solved the poem from home – theoretically speaking. I will have to make a trip to confirm my findings.

            I will walk the path from start to finish, and hopefully the clues I need to confirm, namely the blaze, will show themselves, based upon my findings. This confirming my theory further.

            I have pretty much a plan of attack on the expedition and what I need to do, buy for the trip, where I’ll stay, etc.

            So, in essence, I could care less on what others have decided upon, because my solve is about what I have discovered….not someone else’s. I learned a long time ago that you can’t really “rely on others to give you the whole truth”….so I apply this to everything I don and make the final decision my own. Free will is very important.

            Please remember…I’ve been to my area twice, so in truth, I have already stomped out the clues, while being there…But also built upon the clues I had already established.

            You wrote:
            “IF fenn needed or had to follow the clues… it seems to me that each of the 9 clues have to be understood completely and not just deciphered to what they pertain to. Other wise we just find the last clue on a map and walk to that, right?”

            Correct. In fact I just posted on what a hint to me is…..but if you read what you stated…it pretty much matches your thinking too.

            Must be just a coincidence, huh?


            “Difficult not impossible, thus, solvable.”
            – quote by Tim (ZosoRocks) – March 2013 – said to my friend at the time he presented me with the poem and FF’s first interview.

            It will be solved, why hide a treasure that no one will find. If that was the case, then it would only be possible for the chest to be found – if by chance. FF changed the rules to his liking.

            How the chest can be found by chance AND by thinking. He has sort of leveled the playing field for pretty much everyone.

            Now we play the game he has devised. Of course, you don’t have to play, because of choice, but if you do, there is a prize at the end.

            How well can you think like Forrest is the game we are playing, Seeker. It isn’t about much more than that.

            Shoot…he told us how to play.

            Either you play by his rules or you don’t.

            You wrote:
            “that doesn’t seem to be working, and fenn seemingly followed the clues as well… why did he?”

            You are incorrect. It worked for me. Maybe you atent thinkning deep enough.

            And yes, I do believe FF walked the path….to create the blaze.

            I also think it is possible for him to walk from his car to the hidey spot twice in one afternoon.

            I could be wrong. So be it if I am. I will have learned from my mistakes and will move forward again.

            But not too many more……I can see why this hobby can be an expensive one.

            For me…three times is a charm. My next trip will be the third.

            Three is a magical number, as I have already posted on before.

            Just some thoughts…thanks for responding.

            Good luck to you when you seek.

          • Tim,

            You said “Three is a magical number, as I have already posted on before.” I agree, though I don’t see it as magical.

            For me, it’s more like cadence, a 1-2-3 kind of thing if that makes sense. Think Lawrence Welk. Not that I’m a fan, but mom and dad sure were.

            Take care………Pinatubocharlie

          • Roger that Tim. I totally missed the correlation and even like numerology.


          • Thanks Bob….brief for each of the sections.

            Well….I tried to…..LOL

            Cheers and thanks for reading my posts.

            Anything in them gotcha tongue tied yet?

            Do any remote viewing lately?


          • Hi Lugnutz: here’s the full question and answer. This was posted on Dal’s site on 2/27/2017, but the interview was from May 2015:

            “How much progress can be made by someone just thinking and searching the Internet from home? (Another way of saying this: How many clues can only be decoded in situ?)”

            Forrest’s reply: “All of them, in theory, but not likely in practice. A searcher must go to the site to find the treasure.”

            This says to me that it is at least theoretically possible to solve all the clues without physically being onsite, otherwise why would he make the claim? For instance, it’s not the sort of answer I would expect Forrest to give if only the first two clues could be solved from home. And why add the final sentence? Of course we’ll have to go to the site to actually find the treasure. In the context of the question and the first part of his answer, the simplest reading to me is that you can (and probably should!) solve all the clues from home. Remember: “it’s not a matter of trying; it’s a matter of thinking.”

          • Hi Zap –

            To me this is another instance where Zap should be arguing against this line of thought. He can’t because it’s his.

            When I ask someone if something can be done and they answer theoretically, they mean NO. They just won’t exclude ALL the possibilities for the desired result. He actually goes on the sharpen the point right?

            He says not in practice.
            It’s not piratical to think one can solve the poem from home, not according to Fenn anyway.

            I think he is clear.
            You must nail down WWH before going afailed, agreed?
            The person who finds the treasure will have… and will move with confidence, agreed?
            It is possible but not practical than the Finder will have solved it from home, right?

            To me, if you cannot see that you are interpreting Fenn to benefit your solved, as opposed to with a eye for logic, than you cannot get any further then TLGFI.

            What I think does not matter for your solve. I am just suggesting that you are closing yourself off to the very Spock like magic that YOU brought to this board. Maybe, like Luke, you are not the one.


          • Hi Pinatubocharlie: I fully agree with your statement “That background and personal experiences in life influence perception and interpretation.” Each searcher is going to bring a unique combination of talents to bear when tackling Forrest’s poem. We all have the same “information” (or at least reasonable access to it), but that knowledge isn’t what’s going to solve the problem — it’s imagination. Thinking the right things, making the right connections.

          • Zap –

            I agree with this.

            I’m not sure the Other Zap I’m talking to agrees though. The other Zap isn’t as thoughtful.


          • Well, Lugnutz, I think we just interpret the quote differently. There is no way I would ever go searching for Forrest’s treasure without an end-to-end solution. That has been my position from the beginning — long before this Q&A. I figure if it can’t be solved from home, fresh insights aren’t going to magically materialize while standing at WWWH. Also, I’m mindful of this quote from Forrest:

            “The person who finds the treasure will have studied the poem over and over, and thought, and analyzed and moved with confidence. Nothing about it will be accidental.”

            Showing up on site without a full solution doesn’t sound like a case of “moving with confidence.” It sounds like wishful thinking and a formula for a nice vacation. I guess my question for you is: how many of the 9 clues do you think can be solved from home? It’s gotta be at least two, since Little Indy can do that from a continent away.

          • Hi Zap –

            When folks here take a literal meaning instead of the way something is generally understood, you take issue. That’s what I wanted you to consider.

            To your question, How many clues can be solved from home?

            All but these two: Heavy loads and Water High” — “If you’ve been wise and fond the Blaze, look quickly down your quest to cease.”

            Is the TC at the Blaze? No, but the clues cease there. That’s my opinion.

            Please do consider this. Fenn must be saying there is a clue that cannot be solved from home because he says you need to be out there to find the treasure. Well the treasure isn’t a clue, it’s the target of the clues, right? ergo, there is a clue that must be determined in field. Please pull the quote. if you have it.

            Like this. Bunsen Peak is the Home of Brown and the TC is there, not at the summit, but above the trail. Mammoth Spings (wwh) down 89 (CD) to the Bunsen Trail head (PIBHoB), on trail you pass the part of the forrest that burned leaving the dead black forest (meek), glen creek, you get the idea.

            At some point you find the blaze and follow a direction to Indulgence.

            This is one example of how I think of solves. Since you like to see the hinting evidence, immediately after the poem and clues statement he mentions Gardner Island and the Gardiner River is at the foot of Bunsen Peak. Why was he thinking of Gardner when he worte about his treasure?

            Oh, if you haven’t heard me mention previously, this type of solve is a Brown’s Descent solve. The idea being that as in Brown’s Descent the Home of Brown is at the top of a mountain. I no longer believe there is any driving involved as you know.

            You get it, you nail down WWH, proceed without or without a canyon, there is a creek etc. Blaze found or discovered when you are out there.


          • Lol, now you see Zap. I agree with your last paragraph. There is still hope for your “see it only my way” solve. You say something, we show you examples of what f has stated, and you read it somehow different. Yes, you are right, I cannot gain anything one way or another from that. Pointless.
            I hope that I am not of the 90-95% of agreement with the masses, why would anybody want to be? I still wish you luck though, don’t get the critiques twisted. I just know, (scratch that), I just think you are wrong with some of your ideas, that’s all. Have a shot of Jager, watch Half Baked, pick some flowers, pet a cat, IDK, chill out.

      • Hi JDA….I think you have limited the terminology of the word “structure”.

        I also believe that FF stated this anomaly somewhere….and also explained that we should pay attetion to the “nouns” (he uses).

        the arrangement of and relations between the parts or elements of something complex.
        “flint is extremely hard, like diamond, which has a similar structure”
        synonyms: construction, form, formation, shape, composition, anatomy, makeup, constitution;….


        Cleary….you dismiss something that is quite important….a structure does not necessarily mean “man-made”.

        For my general solve, hoB is already used in the figurative in the poem, so I kept it in the same way when I apply it to the map and geography.

        Good luck.

        • Tim;

          Using your definition – the arrangement of and relations between the parts or elements of something complex. – this would eliminate almost everything from being the hoB – If the hoB is not associated with the arrangement of and relations between the parts or elements of something complex. Soil is complex – Sedimentary rocks are complex – almost all life forms are complex.

          JMO, but I think this is too radical a definition to base your solve upon. Almost left with hoB as being a Brown Amoeba – 🙂 JDA

          • I think you misunderstand my point.

            I don’t think FF ever stated it in the way you think.

            FF is vwet vague in many statements and in the words he uses.

            So vague, the meaning is obscured.

            Just because some think that “no structures are associated with the treasure”….to me….that has no meaning at all.

            I can agree that Maybe some “structure” of molecules exist, because the land it resides upon is structured in some way.

            This FF’s use is not accurate, basing it upon my supplied definition.

            I don’t think FF was even thinking of this word at that level, even though it was the first noun definition of the word when googled.

            Why? Just don’t….everything in the universe is structured, so it really is irrelevant.

            Now if you remove that thinking and set it aside, what else is it can be a structure?

            A building of some sort
            A house of cards
            A beaver dam
            A fallen tree across a river or creek now becomes a bridge – which is normally constructed by man, but not this time, it was done by Nature.

            Do you discount this to be a structure?

            Imagination is important….

            Sound like you are still inside the box and not seeing what can be outside the box.

            Forrest is clever. How clever can you be, in order to play his game?


          • Tim;

            Not patting myself on the back, but if you only knew how much imagination I have used, and how far out of the box I have gone, you would slap yourself across the forehead and say “Damn, why didn’t I think of that?” Just sayin’ Remember I (like every other poster) post only what I want others to know, I never tell ALL that I know – what did Forrest say about the whisperers? – JDA

        • Tim,
          The one thing you missed out of all those definitions is… supports. [foundation, pillars etc,]
          Even in the example of Flint to Diamonds, the supports is on a molecular level of the atoms, because of man’s intervention… But there is always something that ‘supports’ a structure that is ‘made’ including that example. {example, if a diamond is not cut properly, it will split at a flaw [ in a natural stone ] [a man made flint or cut diamond are produced by man ]

          The question is… do natural features have the definition of “supports”? [something done to make something stronger or stand on it’s own, line of thinking.]

          Your example of a fallen tree across a river is not a structure… sorry. Whether or not it is usable as a bridge, or crossing, doesn’t automatically make it a structure. It’s just a fallen tree. If it fell in a field, would it now be a pathway? or just an obstacle?

          • Good points Seeker.

            You are right…it wouldn’t be a walkway…..I was just trying to show how imagination can be applied in ways that express meaning to things said, but not necessarily to the meaning of what was said.

            You helped express it. Thanks.

            For my solve, there are no bridges, and mine is based upon the patterns I’ve already mentioned.

            I personally think JDA’s methodology has way to much walking…and too long of a walk.

            I don’t think FF stopped, after a three mile walk to walk four more miles to the next clue, nor do, I think the whole trek is more than 10 miles from start to finish.

            But those are just my feelings.

            Remember…I’m the guy who uses remote viewing….*smiles*…

          • Tim;

            I have never (I don’t think) said that a searcher, nor Forrest walked the entire way. I believe I have stated that I drive to my wwwh. stop look, get back in car, drive down the canyon (Road overlooks canyon) past “Put in” spot, get off of road I was on, get on another road, and drive past the Meek place to the END place and park.

            Only hiking is from there. One leg I followed took me a LONG way, but then I was sent back to a place near where I started.

            My FINAL solve, from the parking spot, I hike about 1 mile to Indulgence and back to parking lot – repeat – Total about 4 miles – In one afternoon. JDA

          • Okay…I understand now…..you use a hybrid solve of both walking and driving.

            Gotcha. I misunderstood your previous post where you “link” everything in series/continuous.

            I’ll disagree for now, as I think FF walked the path, in order to mark the path. Not to say he could have driven part of the way (because he knew the location well enough) and then,stopped, marked a trail, got back in his vehicle, drove to next spot, marked a trail, etc…through the path, and ended with the placement.

            This is plausible, considering the environment, conditions, distance, etc….but…FF probably is implying we should walk the distance, just to enjoy the surrounding area, and be in wonder.

            I still believe you cannot find the blaze without having BOTG – walking it.

            But that take will be for another day.

            Good luck, and sorry about my misunderstanding….well agree to disagree that the total distance from start to finish is more than 10 miles.

            Best of luck to you…*waves his hand your way to the North*…..be safe out there felow seeker!.


          • Tim;

            You said, “I still believe you cannot find the blaze without having BOTG – walking it.” Yes-No

            Blaze #1 – drove right up to it…Kinda.
            Same parking lot as all solves – looked out front windshield, and there it was – “In your face”!

            All other blazes, had to hike at least 3/4 mile. – Most about 1 mile – One, a LONG hike of about 4 miles. Final solve, 1 mile there, 1 mile back – Twice. YES, the final blazes will be at site where Indulgence is secreted. JDA

    • Tom B

      I think you are close.

      What if “home of Brown”
      was meant as “Brown home”
      like butterfly vs: flutterby.

      As far as Brown being capitalized, how about just because Forrest wanted it capitalized because it is an important place for him and has named that place “Brown” not unlike the name of any town or city.

      Fenn’s place the “home of Brown” has been and will be for 1000’s of years in my opinion.

  31. Pint, Zoso… way up-thread… RE: your crossed lines & X comments:

    THING ONE: … “Like you’re making an X on a map”…. So start at WWWH and draw a stroke down the canyon, a SW direction (assuming you’re right handed.) Go about as far as ‘too-far.’ But don’t look for the HOB there. Lift your pen, go due North and start your cross-stroke at the HOB which is due west of WWWH. You get where I’m going?

    The second stroke is a SE direction. First stroke was on the canyon floor, 2nd one is probably across the ridges ( the high water line).

    I don’t know where the blaze is, unless you are already looking at it after you make the X. Look quickly down, under the intersection for the hidey spot.

    THING TWO: …. Fenn likes to make rules, so use a ruler. Grandma told me that in the meat locker. A pirate told me how to make the X. He had to abandon his ship near Hebgen dam.

  32. I have two solves where a Brown previously lived but the structures are no longer there…not even ruins. Should I disqualify them?

    • Hey Frank,

      In my opinion the historical homes of a person named Brown have already been investigated. They have been looking for this person and his old cabin ruins for over 7 years with no success.

      Solving this home of Brown mystery requires that we think like Forrest Fenn. He has, IN MY OPINION, left many hints in TTOTC for us to identify it, and in what form it exists.

      If I am right, there is humorous irony in the solution. But to answer your question directly, I believe you should disqualify them and move on.


    • Frank. I would be hesitant to throw out a possible clue solution based on second hand information. I personally think that “Brown” involves many of whatever makes it up, but that’s only an opinion. If you have a solid poem solution, don’t be too quick to discard it.

    • Frank;

      No one can tell you whether to keep it or throw it away. All I can say is that my hoB has never related to a person, or where this person might have resided. All relate to physical land features of one kind or another – JDA

  33. New fun-I was playing with an imagination oriented interpretation of hob, I think if we all had to choose our state’s most recognized license plate we could, my possible idea involves a Mr Cowboy Joe and his home being the state, put in below that…look at the big picture. Any thoughts? Note that ATIITCD did not lead me here so I don’t feel like I’m giving anything away but please share if you had used this hob prior, please? For me this leads me to a close to home possibility and I’ve gone down several rabbit holes but I don’t have a complete 9 clue solve yet

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