Where Warm Waters Halt…


This is for a discussion about Where Warm Waters Halt. We’ve all got ideas that didn’t work out or we are willing to share…I think we can give folks just starting out some ideas for the kinds of places that might just be the place Where Warm Waters Halt…or not!

Let the discussion begin…


444 thoughts on “Where Warm Waters Halt…

      • Mr. Yates—
        I am curious…… Do you know more than you let on or did you just get lucky? Specially, have you found the blaze? How far have you got? Can you tell me?

        Best regards


    • Alsetenash – “warm” has me stumped too, given the many poss implications/meanings ..not to mention it’s thee hardest nut to crack compared to the other eight clues, and it’s also the most likely word (in S2 – Ep1) to possess “room” for lateral interp. imho

      perhaps “waters” (re: implying multiple) is quite simply two creeks/rivers feeding a lake, esp given the later ref to “water high” suggesting a distinctly singular body of water as a direct comparison

      (btw, i def don’t mean to sound all soft or anything.. but i’m worried about JDA tbh – has anyone heard from him recently?)

      • Blex – did you notice a 🙂 emoji above? ..no? – that’s because it wasn’t there

        relax nikan, i’m actually ‘asking’ sincerely, so try not to faint too much recently

        ( ..sheesh! – watch Dr Phil much?! 🙁 )

        does anyone else have an up-to-date on JDA?

        • Wow. Sorry I bothered to suggest something optimistic, CH. I was not making a joke.

          If you are in that serious of a mood today, how about losing the muppet avatar?

          • well ok, i’m nearly (optimistically) convinced Blex – ya big charmer!!

            ( ..but only if ya pull ya fig-leaf off first 🙂 )

          • Misunderstandings happen all the time.. sad part of all this is, CH knows who Dr. Phil is… I mean, is there no place in the world you can’t hide from that guy?

          • Seeks – watch out!!.. i strongly suspect that Blex has accidentally turned into a Dalek!! 🙁

            ( ..i know right? – call Dr Who someone!!)

            ( ..VOX? ..help?! 🙂 )

          • It’s all good, CH.

            However, per the bylaws of this blog, (which you agreed to by clicking the “I agree” button the first time you posted a comment) you are now required to change your moniker to “Furious Hobbit”. 😉

        • ditto Spallies, am hoping you’re right there, as wasn’t pers. aware of any recent surgery tbh (?)

          hopefully he’s journeying your beautiful roads, safely en-route to a fun future book-signing 🙂

          (pdenver – might be wise to elevate those “laser squinty eyes” to Orange Alert just in case.. )

          ( ..and don’t forget to put ’em on ‘civilian mode’)

      • Hello Nikan,
        I’ve emailed JDA several times with no response. Hopefully he’s on a search or something. He once mentioned about going to Santa Fe for the book signing but was never confirmed….
        Have a great day in NZ my friend…
        Until next time… see ya

        • Ya’at’eeh Focused – thanks for the info nikan, and yes, hopefully he’s cruising towards SF in his vehicle with a 10gallon mug of choco-latte-chino

          btw, on the off-chance that he found the TC and has gone all Thelma & Louise, i’ve taken the liberty of waiting for him at the Mex. Border, just in case 🙂

          (oh wait! ..is ..is that a massive wall?? 🙁 )

          • TT – how can anyone in their right mind scold someone that presents a tranquil train-spotting vid and uses Strauss’s Blue Danube as background music??

            besides, it’s lotsa fun watching you wrestle with ya ‘latitude’ theory tbh 🙂

            (hang on!! ..i think Hal is refusing to open the pod-bay doors, again! 🙁 )

            ( ..Hal?? …HAL??!!)

  1. warm waters = tears; there are three trails of tears and the Nez Perce trail runs through Yellowstone. The halt is intriguing because it can be a temporary stop. The trail ends 40 miles from Canada outside the Rockies.

  2. How about this…
    Warm waters halt because he’s in “hot water”, as in ” he’s in trouble “.
    Good morning everyone 🙂

  3. Only one way that warm waters halt – when it freezes. I don’t believe that this is a specific location, but a play on history.

    ,,,,,,And take it in the canyon down.

    • I can think of three ways that any water can truly “halt.” :
      1. When it freezes
      2. When it is contained in a cup, bowl, or basin
      3. When it goes up, as in a geyser or fountain, it halts momentarily before it comes down.

      • lol. I’ll go along with that MF, but 2 and 3 don’t fit into my theory. I get it though – theories, like opinions are like….well you get the picture. Obviously I have one. Nothing personal – but it seems that 2 and 3 have been all but worn out when I jumped on the FF train. Thought I’d wander outside the box.

      • MF,

        There are a multitude of reasons why warm water halt, just Google the phrase and you see what I mean.

        One I will throw out for the community to consider is this example of a creek, or river. At some point upstream they both halt being a river or a Creek because most of the time water does not flow uphill, though there are exceptions. To say it a different way, they halt where they begin being a Creek or river. How’s that for double-Talk? This is similiar to a possible WWWH being the Continental Divide put out there a long time ago.

  4. One twist I have thought of is tied to the double omegas in TTOTC. He never had warm feelings towards June as he stated in the book(paraphrrased) and he may have also lost warm feelings for Donnie – both married , divorced and passed in Bozeman, or, Bozeman is WWWH. MSU in Bozeman ties to ff’s talk of education and contains a dick pond(Salinger reference) and duck pond used to be named Frog Pond – f’s reference to gold frogs. Oh and Bozeman is 8 miles from Manhattan which is where Sloane passed and also a Salinger reference.

      • Matt,
        I personal think the way you’re going about it is spot on. May need tweaking… But IF the poem by itself, no “background” information, can’t get us there, this might be to look at the book as subtle hints… but not deliberately placed to aid…

        Yet, we have; “All the information to find the chest is in the poem” we would need a slightly different reading of that comment as well. Because the book now become very important, right? Not just a helping hand, but truly getting inside the head of the author.
        *Apparently the book alone can’t, but the poem can, right? [ stated in other comments ]

        I know what I think about that… curious to what you think about that, to make both comments [and others] to be true / honest.

        • Seeker, If someone got a copy of the poem and they never heard of Forrest Fenn or the back story how would they even know that it was a map to a treasure. Of course, that’s why F said it wouldn’t get us there. (paraphrased).

          But, we all know the back story (that’s why we are all searching) and that’s why F said, all the information you need to find the chest is in the poem. When he said that I’m pretty sure he was assuming that we knew the back story. No conflict here. They are both true / honest.

          • I’m not sure I agree…
            I mean, if you read stanza 1, it doesn’t say much of anything… stanza 5 adds to stanza 1 connecting a treasure, now is a trove… by definition a trove has no ownership. There for “I” in stanza 1 secret [ definition; hide ] a trove in stanza 4 as to; just take it… but even then we don’t know what is in the chest until refer to; title to the gold in stanza 6.

            While not known as “fact” there might be a hidden treasure/trove chest full of gold, It can be a logical assumption the poem [ a found, untitled poem ] could be a treasure designed hunt… mainly because stanza 2 states “begin” and stanza 4 states “Just take the chest and go in peace.”
            It would seem obvious that the poem contains information that could take someone to a possibly hidden chest/treasure/trove of gold, right?

            This would be intriguing to an archeologist type if this piece of paper with a poem was found deep in some archive. or left to a great great great grandchild with only a note saying, ‘the adventure is what we seek’ [ hypothetical scenarios ].

            The real question is, without any background: in the mountains N. of SF… or the poem contains “9” clues…or even rainbow… or why this “I” person did this in the first place… can the poem be solvable?

            Maps are a given in my mind as for helpful in research. The piece of paper [poem] describes the basic components; waters, canyon, creek, water high…

          • Manowar,
            This Q&A might help with my post…

            Dear Forrest,
            You tell us that we should find “where warm waters halt” before trying to solve any of the other clues. Imagining that we haven’t seen the rest of the poem, and all we have to go on is:
            a. “begin it where warm waters halt” and
            b. “somewhere in the mountains north of Santa Fe”
            Do you think that we can confidently determine the starting place for your treasure trail? ~ Steve

            No, if all you have to go on are those two clues you cannot proceed with confidence. Look at it this way. If you were making a cake and you left out a few ingredients, would you achieve your goal?

            Your question reminds me of another: You leave home and walk a straight line for a mile, turn 90 degrees left and walk a curved line for a mile and shoot a bear. Then you turn 90 degrees left again and walk a straight line back to your home. What color is the bear?f

            The fact is not about if the poem can be seen as a treasure hunt, but is there information from the book “needed” … such as; the poem contains 9 clues, also not mentioned in this Q&A.
            How important is this information in the actual solve… which brings me full circle to Matt’s post. and my question to him.

        • Hi Seeker/ManOwar,
          First let me say I am a total newbie to the search, as I have been searching for only about 5 weeks; I’ve read TTOTC, The Poem, A Reverence for Wood, A River Runs Through it(movie) and some independent, what I thought was related material on Native American Pueblos and forced migrations of the other tribes. Paraphrasing what I have read/heard, 🙂 , and please correct me if I am off base- but I have heard: a clever person can solve with only the poem, you need the poem and TTOTC only to solve the puzzle, you don’t need to know extensive amounts of History, a good knowledge of geography will help you, and the person that finds it will have done their research and know exactly where they are going when they go. So not meaning to ask a question to answer a question, what is the answer here? Research indicates to me that you need to delve into these subjects fairly thoroughly or at least enough to get a base understanding of the subject, geography, history, etc. I think you need the poem and several sources to, as you say, get to know the author and what is inside his head when he wrote this.

          • **** Matt wondered about – ” I have heard: a clever person can solve with only the poem, you need the poem and TTOTC only to solve the puzzle . . . ” ****

            Don’t forget a map.

            Q – “Can hunters really get to the treasure location with just a good map, the poem, and a decent knowledge of words?”

            A – “. . . In your . . . question if you change the last word to geography, my answer would be yes.” f


            “Excellent research materials are TTOTC, Google Earth, and/or a good map.” f



          • The very first time I put botg I had only the poem and that it was in the 4 states in the Rockies. I am certain of my solve that puts me back where I started. I hadn’t read TTOTC. The back stories mentioning the treasure and the poem and FF. I have since then read the book, which helped some.

            There are clues as where not to search from F’s blog. I didn’t know that.There are subtle clues that may help in the book. I didn’t know that. We all knew what we are looking for.

            I completely feel one can use only the poem to search, with little other information. If I would go back 7 years and read all of the information it would take a great deal of time, make my head spin not to mention migraines.

            Yes knowing something about F may help, reading the book may help. But it’s possible for one to find the treasure with out much anything else except for the search area.

            I didn’t know there where 9 hints, but I did find what I think is the correct area in the beginning of my search and still feel very strongly my area is very good. Knowing now there are 9 hints, still hasn’t changed my line of thinking.

            So, I disagree that one needs to go back 7 years and follow everything from that point on in order to find the TC. I have no problem with different views on how to proceed in finding the TC.

            I have successfully investigated many things professionally over the years and I always go and look to find things trying to disprove my theories.

            I’m here to see if there are things to disprove my theory and to look at things in a different way. There has been some help, and help with my solve as to what could possibly be the search area around my blaze.

            To sum up: I believe the treasure can be found, knowing the search area is in the Rockies, the poem and a map and not much more info. I’m sure I’m going to get, yeah buts. Yes a little knowledge and some imagination, to include abstract thinking is going to find the TC.

            All IMHO 🙂

        • Perhaps “clues” “hints” and “information” are different things. The 9 clues start with WWWH, but perhaps there are hints or information in stanza #1 which point to an information source outside of the poem, which will help to narrow down the area where WWWH is. All you need is the poem, BUT hints in the book and a knowledge of geography are helpful (both of which are external). A Bible verse is not helpful, but what about a Bible book ?

          • Bob,… and Matt,
            Not being anal, Butt… ~’ All you need is the poem ‘ Is not what fenn said.
            … “All of the information you need to find the treasure is in the poem.”

            That’s slightly different to “all” you need is the “poem.” [ That slight difference is what cause the nuclear debate of ‘ poem purist ‘ vs, botg only.
            Ah! the good old days when men were men and women were women… well, for the most part. There was one confused character… Nora whats his face. But I digress.

            If all there was needed is the poem, why tell us there are 9 clues contained in the poem… helpful hint or needed information? Is that intro to the poem background information, or 9 means the difference between a solve and an general solve?

            I mean, I can see the poem alone telling me, I have a treasure hunt on my hands. I can see information in the poem that gives me the idea I have to figure things out. But no place in the poem does it say anything about {9} nine [without guessing]… other than 9 sentences. But we now know… the first clue sits in stanza 2.

            We also have “in the mountains N. of SF” a helpful suggestion not to look in FL or Kansas or the Appalachians? Or needed to be known? Maybe even connect to 9…

            Maybe, just maybe… the idea of; “need to know where to start” is not in the poem, only the clues that lead from there to ‘find’ the chest are?

            Like I said, not trying to be anal, butt, leaving it as; ‘all you need is the poem’ is not quite correct.
            It might fall down to “needed,” as to getting started, more than, a ‘hint helps with a clue’ and a clue gets you closer…

            Your basic understanding is ok, but not completely accurate. Being new, the only advice anyone can really honestly suggest is… Ketchup… it’s not just for hotdogs anymore.

          • 🙂 I’m from Chicago – never put ketchup on a hot dog . What secrets do you know that you can state I’m ‘not completely accurate’? Do share… We can grammatically dissect the poem and the book to the n^th degree and I can come up with several WWWH locations geographical or state of emotion(for lack of better word choice). The Rockies are filled with Sinks and Basins, areas where warm waters turn cold from geothermal activity or where they are defined by the State as Warm Waters. What secrets do you have Seeker? I’m intrigued. Where is your WWWH and why? I”m curious.

          • Matt: Are you a northsider, southsider, westsider or suburbanite? Yeah, I know, there are a few eastsiders but I’m guessing you not one of em! If in the city proper, what neighborhood? I understand if you don’t want to be too specific. Lugnutz is from Chi-town area, as well. In any case – I agree – no matter how it’s spelt, tomato sauce just don’t belong on a hot dog. Just add mustard and onions on mine. Maybe relish or a pickle on the side, but only when I’m in an “I don’t care” mood. My favorite Chicago hot dogs were/are the char-broiled ones from Fatsos Last Stand in Ukrainian Village. Don’t mean to start a dog-war.

          • KidUtah: I was a Southsider (Marquette Park) until early teens(1972ish) then moved to the Western Suburbs (Riverside) – I currently reside in NE Ohio. So no Chitown pizza, dogs or Italian Beefs anymore. My favorite southside dog stand was Johnny’s on the corner of 55th and Sawyer or Spaulding – I can’r remember which that was long ago. I was mustard & onions too. I miss the greasy fries in the bottom of the bag. Now when my wife and I go back we grab Portillos and Giordano’s. Never had Fatsos growing up there were small hot dog stands run by Greek families all over 3 dogs and fries for a couple bucks…those were the days.

          • Matt, Jake gave some quotes. my point is that even with those few quotes… it’s hardly the tip of the iceberg.

            There’s seven years of fenn’s comments to be read.
            Don’t take what you read in any bloggers postings as completely accurate or correct.

            That way you won’t start out with the idea… All you need is the poem… That is not what was actually stated.

            Researching is your best friend to decide how to approach solving the poem.

          • Hey Matt…it is great to have more new searchers show up and get started. New eyes and new approaches, as it were.
            I cannot speak for anyone but myself…but I think that Seeker and Jake were only pointing out that there is a crap load of info that really needs to be sifted through. Failed searches with a wide variety of interpretations for every aspect of Fenn’s poem. Fenn has made a lot of after the fact(ATF) statements and answered many questions over the years. He remains fairly active with staying in touch with the search community…so the approach one may choose to the Chase is a bit more diverse(perhaps more complicated) than one might think.
            I’m not sure how I would approach this if I were just starting…there is sooo much. Good luck Matt…and for the record…ketchup/catsup on anything is a good way to keep me from touching it!

          • Hey Ken, thanks for the welcome. I totally get what Seeker and Jake were saying and realized after my initial reading of TTOTC that there are many paths to follow. I find it interesting to read others writings and their thoughts and approaches as well as not wanting to give up too much of their hard work and research. I agree the search may be more complex as well as the approach to solving it . I have to go ketchup now! 🙂

          • Ha! Matt,
            The only secret I have is, ya don’t need Ketchup for a Coney Island hotdog… the secret is in the sauce. Just like a NY style Pizza… lol, no offense to Chicago pizza… its ok, I guess.

  5. Has anyone else wondered if Forrest’s “warm = comfortable” hint may be referring to something other than WWWH? I was pursuing a solve based on this for a brief while.

    • Hmmm, Nope. I imagine slow, shallow meadow waters warmed by the sun that halt at the edge of the forest where they emerged as cold waters. I have a bias for edges and lines and borders.

    • I think that WWWH in the poem could be a subjective connotation that just might imply that it is not ‘ physical’ waters. Though, it could be of a physical location non-the-less. Just that this may not mean the element of being H2O. IMO .

      In the poem is a rhyming flow standard. Some words are polar opposites or contrasts in descriptions tied/ linked to other words. Such as: treasures, trove, chest and gold. These words have two sets of two links; treasures/trove and chest/gold- two are multiples and two are singulars( though gold is rarely a word pluraled). The two each sets of two could be two sets of different meaning points- not four meaning of the same. IMO .

      There are other words in the poem that this could also be applied to. I am not of the rigidity that this is being the case to apply to these words or any other words . It’s just a thought process of analysis. Thought form descriptions can be literal or subjective of meaning in allegory.

      So basically , with this lens of thought, I can see two potential meanings of everything described . But the two descriptions that are tied/linked together just might be contrast meaning of the same element or a different element of the other but similar in allegories use of a different ‘matter’ altogether? IMO .

      Simply put: perhaps WWWH is not water elemental but an allegorical expression description that is of a physical location.

      In my mind this could be the meaning of this quote. IMO .

      “I don’t want to broaden the clues and hints I’ve written about by pointing them out. What surprises me a little is that nobody to my uncertain knowledge has analyzed one important possibility related to the winning solve.” f

      I think this idea could be a nod to the Double Omegas meaning also.

      Warm Waters/ Water High

      Just some mental gymnastics I go through lol .

      Just my opinions.

      • Thats a lot of words Al for the cold/warm question.
        Most seem to accept the confluence answer, the geography of 2 rivers. Others like the single river theme with warm/cold changes by Forestry designation. I like the single river answer with geography & sun effects. I’m probably wrong, I don’t read every post, and I forget a lot.

        • I was wordy because explaining a ‘realm’ of thought can be a thesis in its own right.

          I can see and read of many people linking wwwh to what you say as potentials. Those thoughts seem to dominate as ideas. WWWH is very important as FF has said- ( paraphrasing) just stay home if you don’t have it figured in your mind. Also, that we won’t know for sure we have the right WWWH until we have found the chest- again just paraphrasing. IMO .

          So, to pre- know but not know for sure untill the correct solve is known; causes many words of analysis and to analyze many words. IMO .

          Seven years appears to be no different now, then from the start.

          • Your mental gymnastics are interesting to read, Alsetenash.

            Perhaps the mirroring of terms in the poem, as related to the double omega, could also incorporate the notion of possible double entendres in the poem as well? In double entendres, definitions are grossly distanced from one another in abrupt ways, rather than being mere mirror images.

            Whoops, I guess you have me doing mental gymnastics now too! Here’s a triple backflip! lol.

          • Blex, thanks! Here’s an over over spin belly flop lol.

            I really focused on FF’s comment when he was asked what ‘warm’ means to him… he said “comfortable”. Almost a word that could be ‘key’ ?? To me ,this answer was asked within this realm of the chase, so I interpret his meaning of ‘Warm’ by him-Where Warm (comfortable) Waters Halt. I am sure this has been discussed here but I think it has high importance/relevance. Us Canadians have a different perception of ‘warm’ in degrees than our friends in the southern USA. Lol.

            When we read a novel , or FF’s books, we have our own inherent imaginations of the characters, landscapes, images, scenery etc. When a book becomes a movie produced, it is very common that people say/think that the books are always better. We already had the pictures/movie of the book in our heads ,so the movie will inherently be different from ours. Perhaps reading FF’s books/poem would have different visuals and connotations in meaning to the reader than his. Thus, illustrations really help connect to his. This could be inferenced to the meaning of the Double Omega. IMO . Double entendres is in the realm of perception- his, ours. IMO.

            Warm means comfortable.

            I still don’t know what or where he means, but I think it is linked to ,’worth the cold’=halts. In my opinion.

          • You could be onto something there, Alsetenash. I’ve often wondered how much weight to attribute to “worth the cold” in the poem, but one can’t deny that it is a definite source of contrast to the “warm” in WWWH.

            I sometimes wonder about Forrest’s statement of “warm” meaning “comfortable” in the context of the interview during which this was said. I sometimes think it was a very significant statement indeed, but then I also wonder if Forrest decided to just sort of play a spontaneous free-association word-game with the interviewer, knowing that he was also throwing a red herring into the mix.

            I cannot help but picture myself in Forrest’s shoes, and experiencing the self-aware joy in throwing out a few red herrings here & there every now & again. It seems pretty fun to me!

          • Blex. For conversation purposes, ‘ red herring ‘ is a possibilty but I don’t think so myself. Perhaps him considering the weight of his words are to be analyzed , I think he would be more so clear with word usage intention. IMO . Theretofore, I do think ‘ your effort will be worth the cold’ is a handshake to WWWH in the poem. Not every one agrees with them folks that ‘ walk to the beat of their own drum’.

            Just my ponderings and opinions.

          • I’m definitely not saying you are wrong in your thinking. That’s about the only thing I can be definite about in regards to the Chase!

          • Oh I understand you of that, Blex. When I said, ‘ Not every one agrees with them folks that walk to the beat of their own drum’. I meant as a handshake to ‘ You effort will be worth the cold” . Not everyone agrees with the ways and attitudes of others outside of ‘normal’ standards that stems from ‘common’ practices. This was me referring to ‘ worth the the cold’ ( a reception) . Nothing of you or I intended in my writ.


            Just my opinion.

      • Thats a lot of words Al for the cold/warm question.
        Most seem to accept the confluence answer, the geography of 2 rivers. Others like the single river theme with warm/cold changes by Forestry designation. I like the single river answer with geography & sun effects. I’m probably wrong,

        • I don’t know how that happened… did I mention that I forget a lot. I also wander around the kitchen a lot & leave stuff floating on my screen.

  6. Anxious to hear other thoughts on this cause I am so locked into Yellowstone region like many searchers. May be my newbie tendency to just keep it simple.

    Best luck to all.

  7. From a Q and A in 2014

    “Mr. Fenn: In the past when you have said that several people had figured out the first two clues and then went right past the other clues, would you say that they got lucky and just happened to go to the correct starting area, not fully understanding the poem, or would you say that they did indeed solve the first two clues by understanding the poem and clues?” C

    “Searchers have routinely revealed where they think the treasure was hidden and walked me through the process that took them on that course. That’s how I know a few have identified the first two clues. Although others were at the starting point I think their arrival was an aberration and they were oblivious to its connection with the poem. Playing a hunch is not worth much in the search and those who start out by looking for the blaze, are wasting their time.f”

    IMO, people have assumed from this statement, that a few people have SOLVED the first two clues. That’s not what FF is saying. He’s actually stating these people have only “correctly identified” the first two clues actually being clues. Huge difference. He’s also saying others have written to him, stating where they started, and that this, from later actions, was entirely coincidental.

    • I find this very interesting, Bohuslaner. I cannot remember reading anything that would invalidate your interpretation. If you are correct, then that means competition is less fierce than we originally thought. SCORE!!! 😉

        • Just clarifying.. solved clues or solve as a whole for all the clues?
          fenn use “decipher” when talking about the clues, tells us we need to decipher the clues and stated in several ways, “Indicated” “deciphered” “figure the first couple” all about the first two clues… If not to mean solved the first two clues, what does it mean?
          Their synonymous

        • Jeezus!!

          12/15/2013 – http://dalneitzel.com/2013/12/15/forrest-gets-crazy_mail/

          Hi Forrest,
          I saw an excerpt from your Oct 22 event at the bookstore where you mentioned again that the furthest people have gotten was only figuring out the first 2 clues. I had sent you an email after my 7th trip to Montana from Connecticut a few days before the event outlining my solution which led me xxxxxx where I planned to continue my search in the spring. Obviously if you said you know of only the first 2 clues being solved then all of the people who emailed you their solutions, including me, should start looking elsewhere. Before I give up my solution, I just wanted to confirm that you do in fact read every email even if you don’t respond.

          I read all emails unless they are too long, unsigned, or ask for an advantage or confirmation.

          Those who have SOLVED the first two clues are not aware that they did, so I don’t see that as useful information for anyone. I will not comment on any solutions that are sent to me by email. Good luck sir. f

          Yep, he said SOLVED the first two clues….yep, yep, he really did!!!

          Good Luck to Ya, Bo……loco 🙂

          • Sorry, I’m a word-mincer…kinda have to be when dealing with FF. In all of the many interviews he’s given over the years, there are very few things he has said, relating to the treasure, which one can accept 100% at face value- or as ultimately helpful. Essentially, these non-helpful clues are only helpful if you already know the answer.
            In the context of how FF is describing the first two being solved or deciphered, he may simply be giving a general statement relating to overview rather than specifics. For example- BIWWH may be the first clue, but ATIITCD while being the second clue in the poem, may actually the ninth in function: i.e.- “begin it here and end it there”. Correctly interpreting that subtle phraseology could constitute a “solving” of the first two clues to FF- and yet not really- and that is why he notes the people who have noticed this have correctly, have technically solved or deciphered the first two clues, but also haven’t been able to take it any farther.

  8. I read from one of the blog comments dealing with legality of the trove and a searcher named Paul was saying if the treasure was found in Yellowstone it would be 100% property of US government. If this is true would F hide it there? This has a lot of bearing on the solve we are workin on, with our WWWH.

    • I considered this before searching in YS. From what I have found there are only laws against taking things that are natural to the park out of the park. There have been comments from a ranger that you would have to turn it in to the park but I haven’t found anything in writing saying such. Many that have heard these comments still believe that WWWH has something to do with YS and search there.

      • Cannot remove any natural or cultural object from the parks, including fossils, rocks, animals, plants, and artifacts.

        How long, you suppose, for the chest to become a cultural artifact?

        • Just my opinion but I can’t see that ever holding up in a court of law. If FF did spend $8k on attorney fees it makes me lean toward the TC being in a more questionable location. Just a guess though. He did have to go over all potential spots so as not to lead on the attorney to it’s potential spot.

          • I don’t necessarily disagree with you Aaron. I do have another scenario to suggest, but will take this to the legal forum since we’re way off topic here.


        • J A Kraven: Intriguing question you posed. Could it now be considered “pop culture” (is there a pun there) or “folk culture” or “roman culture” due to Indulgence?

  9. Searchers:

    Don’t know where these comments belong, so will interject them here, if that’s OK. I was very interested, again, about the legal questions surrounding the “finding” event. You know, what we all seek as we travel the outdoors and backwoods on maps, GE, or actual BOTG in search of the FF trove. Occasionally, a comment is made about what to do if you were to find the TC. But what are the legal issues if a person correctly deciphered the poem, found the TC and wanted to make it public. Telling the world you mastered the poem is pretty impressive. So, I went back to early Blog comments (2013 +) and read several length dissertations about the legal issues, hopefully from knowledgeable legal minds. There were several differing opinions, but all had the same over-riding conclusion: if revealed, the successful searcher might find themselves in one heap of legal, accounting and/or criminal problems. Now, we all credit FF with being a very smart guy who admittedly spent years designing, writing and perfecting the poem. I am always influenced by his comment that, he knew exactly where to hide the treasure or something like that. The poem had to simply describe how to get there. Since I have been an advocate that “his spot” was in Yellowstone National Park, I am now torn with the uncertainty that FF must have known about these legal “finding” issues and their consequences long before he finished the poem. Has he left these problems and their consequences up to the successful searcher? Did he actual believe some family man with his wife and kids out in the wilds following their clues in hopes of finding a treasure could master the lengthy legal procedures, claims and lawsuits, and their costs, by agencies of the federal government, the I.R.S., state authorities, etc., if the location and finder were made public? If hidden on “vulnerable” land, does his poem simply say, “when you find the chest, don’t stay and celebrate, quietly get it, and leave in Peace”? Has he suggested that he would like to know of the finding (return of bracelet) but the rest of the world need not know? He will release the news? The finder remains silent and private? Now, I am not sure of any of it. Did FF know of these issues, of which I believe he did, and just hid his trove in his long-time favorite spot ignoring the consequences? Or did he in fact hide it in a place where there would be no question regarding the ownership. Clean and clear. My new “direction” may very well be the land on which the TC is hidden. A big clue?
    Keep searching and be safe.

    • This is pretty much how I read it. The poem says to keep your pie hole shut and run with it. Just let him know its found in a way he will know 100 percent. If you disclose you will be bombarded and the treasure fun will be a pain in the rear….taxes, may have to return to place you found it, government involved, IRS, court…..just a pain. But could you not return it to FF, the original owner and he give it back to you as a reward for returning his chest? Just throwing that out there too.

  10. Big Skip- my thoughts exactly. Locating the TC on Public vs Private, State, or Federal lands has huge ramifications for the finder. Not saying FF didn’t restrict himself to hiding it on public lands, but not doing so would almost guarantee a smart or savvy finder would go underground with his find for fear of legal fees, tax requirements etc. Finding it on private would mean splitting the proceeds at a minimum, and removing things from national parks or Federal Land, is a felony and would need to be forfitted to the Govt…with FF feeling the legal bite too. Of the four options, public seems the most viable, as it puts the onus solely upon the discoverer.

  11. In FF’s book TTOTC he makes a comment about J.D. Sallinger’s book “Catcher in the Rye”. I was looking up warm water info and researched drainge basins and such, and it says a drainage basin is a catchment basin, so I wonder if that was sort of a hint, not sure. But if you look up drainage basin on wikipedia it has lots of information on water. It’s confusing to figure some of that out. See if that helps. This is my first time posting. I have been doing lots of research online. Have two search areas that are of interest. Don’t know if I will get there to look!!! Don’t bypass anything when you do research. If it says something is cold water, like trout waters, there might be other water running into them from irrigation or something. There is lots of info on the internet.

    • Welcome to the Chase, Mari! Much of the Rockies were part of, or at the edge of, an ancient seabed so you may have something going there on the geologic scale. I believe there may be a few others who have commented on such an angle if you care to dig around in the archives a bit more. Have fun! 🙂

  12. New Mexico is a place with multiple cultures and languages, and I suspect that you have to know more than one language to solve the poem. Could the “warm waters” be a waterway named Aguascaliente, of which there are several in the Rockies?

  13. i stopped looking at the poem for awhile and just went back to it. think that is a good idea for everyone. if you take away the warm waters for a moment and just look at the word halt by itself. Halt a place where soldiers halt to make camp or rest. They actually call it that. I think some of the answers in which we all seek will be found in historical documents. I personally have been reading about some historical accounts of some of the locations of my search. Sometimes i get lost in them. Will not be going there till after the thaw in April or May. I will give this more attention this winter. Already chilly her in Oklahoma..

    • Hi Mosby, I really like the thought process here. What has stopped me from looking into historical relevance are comments like, and I am paraphrasing, “need no specialized knowledge” and “only need the poem and a map”.

          • Good idea Aaron….I’ll cross out anything to do with Bridger, Lewis and Clark or any of the other mountainmen

            Best regards

          • I think a broad knowledge of history is equal to, or possibly more important, than geography.

          • Bo, welcome to the chase. I’m pretty sure Forrest disagrees with you about history.
            Posted August 12th, 2014:

            Mr. Fenn, Is there any level of knowledge of US history that is required to properly interpret the clues in your poem. ~Steve R

            No Steve R, The only requirement is that you figure out what the clues mean. But a comprehensive knowledge of geography might help.
            and- http://dalneitzel.com/2017/02/25/scrapbook-one-hundred-sixty-six-2/

          • Key point about Steve R’s question is what ihe’s asking – it’s very specific, enough to allow FF the ability to answer it without actually answering. You don’t need to know US history in depth- but you still may need to know history.

          • At the NZ interview ff emphasized that at least for the first clue no local or geography knowledge is needed. All you need to do is FIGURE OUT what the clue means.

          • Bohuslaner,
            If no US history is needed, the history as far as helping with the poem’s clues would have to be prior to the independence of the US, [ at least ] right?
            I go along with the thought… but that means… for example, the “states” of NM, MT, WY, CO can not be considered part of the poem’s clues references, right?

          • I’m thinking broader. FF is asked if one needs a “specific knowledge of US history”, which I take to mean, does solving the puzzle require a specialized knowledge in a specific US historical subject- such as the Civil War, Manifest Destiny, Korean War, etc. FF says no. That doesn’t preclude needing a broad.knowledge of historical events etc

          • Concur with Loco’s sentiment, as reflected by Forrest’s words. I’d go further and opine that a knowledge of history will be about as helpful as Bible verses in solving Forrest’s clues.

          • In TTOTC, pg 135, FF writes;

            “I’ve always had a love for history and that’s why I like to collect and talk about old things. Maybe it’s because the people who lived in olden times seem so mysterious to me.” This entire chapter is devoted to history, so I think discounting general historical knowledge (I.e, questions asked in a Trivial Pursuit game), as unnecessary is this search… is crazy IMO.

          • Per Wiki – Geography is an all-encompassing discipline that seeks an understanding of the Earth and its human and natural complexities—not merely where objects are, but how they have changed and come to be.

            Geography is often defined in terms of the two branches of human geography and physical geography.[4][5] Human geography deals with the study of people and their communities, cultures, economies and interactions with the environment by studying their relations with and across space and place.[6] Physical geography deals with the study of processes and patterns in the natural environment like the atmosphere, hydrosphere, biosphere, and geosphere.

            In my simple-minded opinion and based on this definition, I don’t know how you can discard history from the conversation. Old Faithful is a Geyser, that’s geography right? But it got its name somehow, it wasn’t just born with it. There’s some history related to that name. That’s all I’m saying.

            To me, “specialized knowledge” has more to do with your educational background. No need to have a PhD in history, math, particle physics, engineering, rocket science, etc. BUT, you need to have a general understanding of history, geography, perhaps geology too. And being a good researcher probably wouldn’t hurt.

            Having said all that, the more I study the poem, the more I find in it, which in turn, makes me think more. Then it’s back to more research and the cycle repeats itself. A circular pattern if I’ve ever seen one, which is right up JDA’s alley.

            JDA – how the heck are you doing? Sure hope you didn’t have a relapse from your recent surgery. Do I recall you mentioning earlier this month you try and squeeze in one more BOTG before winter gets a firm grip on the RMs? Is that the reason for your recent absence from the HoD?

          • He doesn’t appear to be answering his personal email either. I hope there’s not a problem. Maybe his computer broke??

          • Bohusläner: as long as it’s just simple historical facts that a redneck in Texas would know, then fine — it’s fair game. But if that Texan has to find a historical factoid online or in an Encyclopedia (remember those?) to solve the poem, I’d say he’s strayed into specialized knowledge land.

        • I think ff said a ‘comprehensive’ knowledge … that covers everything… the shape & history of land & people, so can we mute this before it gets picky-nuts? Or is it too late?

      • What if by “no specialized knowledge” he meant you WILL need a broad range of general knowledge. Perhaps you don’t need to be an expert in any one field, but being a jack-of-all-trades might help.

        • I have thought of that Becky. I have also considered that since information is so easily had online these days that of course you do not need the knowledge if you can just Google it. Who knows for sure though.

    • Mosby—

      Start in the state you live in. WWWH may actually be there. Many will disagree with me, but I’m serious. Studying History, especially of the American Indian people, may be very important. Read about the Osage Nation– I have– a brave and fierce people— the tallest Indians in America. It’s a very interesting read.

  14. Finding your own wallet is not the same thing as finding an abandoned $1 million dollar treasure. The land, and everything left absmdonfed on it, belongs to the owner. Even public lands would require that the finder bring the find to the county govt the treasure was found in. it would be impounded, asssessed, and then a tax bill would be given to you. If you can’t pay it, the state keeps the TC. That’s reallity in the land of the fee. Word of advice…if you are so lucky to find it….break the law. http://westerndigs.org/searching-for-forrest-fenns-hidden-treasure-5-things-to-consider/

    • What if it was an inholding in a national park? and what if one of the items in the chest was ‘title’ to the inholding ? Just throwing that out there.

      • You really don’t want to say you carted away anything you found on Federal land. State would be bad enough…, Federal could get you in serious trouble. You might remember Bobby Unser and the trouble he got into after getting lost in a snowstorm? Feds charged him with willfully driving a snowmobile in a national park – a Federal misdemeanor with up to 6 months in jail…. no… you don’t want to say you found anything on Fed land.


        • One other point- it’s also not a good thing to willfully abandon something in a National Park- no matter the value, particularly if one went off trail and buried it- all of this is a big no-no. If this was discovered, and FF was/is still alive, he’d be heavily fined and face jail time. It’s why I’m confident the TC is not stashed there.

          • Sure, I can change venues, but for convenience, one last one here. In my last post I attached a link to the CFRs which govern that sort of thing. Think about what I said generically. Could someone willfully abandon, say a vehicle, or a bag of clothes, in a national park?

          • Aaron- On the legal page, your link led me back to myself. I’m the same Paul who wrote all the legalize info a few years back. As for sources, that post is a very good one (if I do say so myself). It provides all the precedent law. I am not a lawyer but I do hold contracting business law certs in six states, and deal with the Feds and State all the time.

          • B – keep in mind that Forrest didn’t hide it there (where-ever ‘there’ is) for the convenience of the searcher, but rather for the fact that he fell in love with that spot and was gonna make it work no matter what, even if it cost him $8k in legal fees

            if he didn’t wish for a searcher to become entangled in pesky by-laws, maybe he should’ve hidden it in international waters
            (where Dal is sure to find it 🙂 )

          • Absolutely- don’t let me dissuade you. I hope everyone searches in National Parks. 🙂

          • great!! so we’re all agreed then ..that i’ll cover all the National Parks if you cover all international waters

            ( ..jeez, that was easy 🙂 )

      • Hey Matt…Dal himself had an “inholder” theory at one time. You can read his story right here under “Dal’s Adventures”. Finding Carl parts 1-3. I really liked this story…not because of the solve itself…Carl is someone I can admire and Dal is a fabulous writer. There are many stories you could research and pick and choose at will.

  15. Sometimes you just gotta go against the grain, if ff felt like an Architect after he composed this poem and these words express “geographical locations” all geographical places have one think in common, latitude and longitude.

    Any good map has both, and somehow the poem inculcates that structure as well, after all it is a good map that will take you within a few feet of Indulgence.

    A structure design means IMO several dimensions must be considered, on reason that WWWH that first and most important clue must be understood completely is hinted on page 9 of TTOTC.

    Why is there so many places where WWWH north of Santa Fe? Because anywhere above the TC it freezes every night and when the sun comes out the WWW flows again, perhaps that is why the big hint may be understanding WWI is the joker’s way of telling us it is 32 degrees, that is where we begin the first state line, Texas, NM, and Old Mexico. What was the weather at Borders? Sprinkled some where in there For the searcher who was sure, ie For Whom the Bell Tolls? Why is there an emphasis on 90 in so much of Fenn’s writing? So hear me all and listen good, frame this search in Wood and look at the BIG PICTURE, there are no shortcuts and a tangent must be totally understood.


    PS when I shot my latest video the place where I was standing has a Brass marker and it says United States Supreme Court, 1868 Colorado, New Mexico mile marker corner.

  16. Hi Everyone

    I have had no internet service for ten days. Still no internet – using friends computer, Maybe internet back Monday. I am fine, just going crazy

    Hope to chat Monday.


  17. The reason I suspect JDA didn’t have internet service for 10 days was because he was in the pokey. The judge gave him 10 days for drunk and disorderly….

    Pretty common about here…

    Just thinking it thru


    • Billy,

      Can I get you a nice cup of STFU?

      JK just defending the best of the best – a.k.a. JDA

      Glad you’re still with us, JDA.

      • I meant no disrespect….I was just cogitating

        .I’ll shut TFU You need time to think…maybe you should go back and read my posts if you want to find the …..Billy is not an ignoramus..just weird

        Best regards


  18. Good thing the TC was hidden where it could be found . . . before somebody totally “lost it”.

    Something about where warm waters halt . . . it would be where they STOP MOVING. If more people knew what “halt” means, then maybe the flow of additional hints would diminish a bit.

    Well(!), one can hope.

    • tighterfocus- In my solution which has yet to be proven, the waters don’t halt. There are places where warm waters can halt but it requires imagination to find those spots and also requires another component in order to have a starting place.

  19. Just a random thought, and maybe not the right venue…but I’ve been musing over a what-if.

    Not helpful to finding the TC… but imagine if the area it is stashed in, was consumed by a forest fire. A typical fire burns at 1200 degrees F, which would not be hot enough to melt gold, but silver, brass and glass would be toast….leaving a slag heap and gold coins for some fire fighter to stumble upon during the post-fire walkabout. I’m wondering if FF calculated this possibility into his hiding place…and that’s why he knows it’s “wet”?

    • Hi Bohuslaner – Forrest has stated that the chest could be scorched in a forest fire. Due to that statement it seems logical that some type of fuel source is around or over the chest.

      As far as the “wet” goes, Forrest has said that physics tells him the chest is wet. And in the Rockies you have ice, snow, sleet, hail, and humidity so you can’t escape the moisture no matter how hard you try. At least Forrest has said that the chest is not under water so you won’t need a snorkel to locate the chest.

      • HMA,
        That ‘Scorch by Fire’ comment was a second hand writ… in an interview… Tony whatever. Not to mention that his track record for accurate quotes are questionable at best. The one I recall fenn talking about fire was on a Q&A.
        Mr Fenn, in relation to the final resting place of the chest, which of the 4 natural elements (Earth, Wind, Water, Fire) would mostly compromise it resting? ~ James
        I know what the question is. I don’t think earth can hurt it, under the right conditions wind might affect it, it’s probably already wet, and look at what fire did to the twin towers. Nature makes her own rules, James, so I try to not be absolute when talking about her.

        The fact that fenn stated “know” it’s wet, at one time, doen’t mean it constant. The above Q&A states “Probably” wet. should explain HMA’s comment of how Physics tells fenn the chest is wet, even buried 6′ in the ground, in the RM’s.
        As far as fenn’s fore-thoughts… only he can answer his thoughts… mine are the “hidden part”. Hidden so well even a searcher wouldn’t find without the full solve and walk right by.

        We can debate the “doubt that anyone could be within 12′ and not find it” as well … First; I think fenn meant anyone as a searcher. [ fenn has used the term ‘people’ in reference to the first couple clues solved, idea ]. Second; “no one will stumble upon it” to me might mean, any situation you can think of, fenn could have thought of that to over a 20 year period. Fire fighters, construction, surveyors, hikers, campers, drone flyers, metal detector enthusiast, GE, fishing guides and /or fisherman [ err, person ] etc. etc.

        Just to play it safe and not let one ATF comment lead you astray… this is why folks need to look up All the ATF for a reasonable judgement call…

        food for thought……

        • The “heavy loads and water” could simply refer to the chest and its contents: treasure and water which has leaked into the chest from snow melt.

  20. Of all the many things FF has said over the years, I’m most bothered by a couple of statements:

    1- that FF was aware that some people have been within 500ft (200 ft in one interview), of the TC- and yet the TC is supposedly not near any human-made trails. That would either mean someone had essentially figured out the poem but wasn’t able to close the deal, or the closeness was entirely random…which doesn’t quite square with a lack of human presence. How does one “off-road” in the wilderness and be that close, and yet not? Does that suggest he was actually describing someone flying over the area? Someone in a low descent or possibly a helicopter?

    2- the forward by Doug Preston for the new book contains an odd passage. In it, he says FF’s original plan was to have himself buried with the treasure. Fair enough, but the original plan also called for an IOU for $100k to be in the chest, to act as an early warning system. Once it was cashed, FF would know the treasure had been found. Wha?… how does that work. Apparently, the IOU was switched out with something else- probably the bracelet, but that’s not a plan that works well in the afterlife

  21. In response to an up-thread question which I now can’t find….my 2¢.

    “You only need the poem” is just another trickster’s statement …. because EVERY WORD IS A LIBRARY.

    From Mell Brook’s ‘rock talk’ to recent stick figure stories, each word has an encyclopedia of history behind it … language, alphabets, symbols, survival, sharing, teaching, values, myths, struggle, power, truth, logic, grammar, status (Liza Dolittle just blew me a kiss)… and I haven’t even mentioned fingers, sorry, I mean numbers. Just the poem & a good map? Ha!

    A good place to start is by understanding how things got their names … See Mark Twain & Eve for that.

        • OS2,
          I wouldn’t call it restraint,.. Maybe knowledge. Ya know what they say; a little knowledge is a dangerous thing? lol, I have to admit, I have very little knowledge…

      • And he substituted “a decent knowledge of geography” for “a decent knowledge of words” in answering a question in scrapbook 166.

    • OS2,

      You said above….”Just the poem and a good map? Ha!”
      I would have to disagree, the TC can be found with just the poem and a good map. The other statement you made, “is just another trickster’s statement..” Why is it another trickster” you so sure about?

      I do think there is nothing tricky about using just the poem and a good map. Why is it so hard to understand that basic simple way of looking at things may be the way to solve the poem? I don’t believe understanding the history of how things got there names is going to help.

      • I think you misunderstood the concept CharlieM… which was that all words have a backstory, and that story is compounded by the experience the reader brings to the party. Good luck Chuck, you just may be right to stay on the single lane paved roads. Thanks for your input. OS2

  22. Hey all,
    I found this book in my dad’s things and started looking into this.
    Not sure where this question really belongs as it crosses multiple threads. Is it a hint, odd and ends, or other, but since it’s water related I decided to post here.
    I haven’t seen if this was discussed, but there is lots of odd things discussed here so lots of info to go through, if there s a pilot here that would be cool to hear from.

    Forrest talks about his brother flying a plane to Hebgen lake. Skippy gave a call 30 minutes before landing, so my best guess would put him close at Henry lake or maybe Island reservoir.
    My first question is are these within 30minutes? Or would something farther be needed, because if farther then I’m not sure where he took off from as there’s fewer lakes to take off from with pontoons. After calling, Skioou would need maybe 5minutes to get to the plane, get it started, and take off giving about 25minutes to fly to Hebgen.

    This then goes into the actual question. In looking for information on this I found that someone wants to start an air tour of Yellowstone, by leaving from Hedgen lake. I understand that engines are more advanced and Fenn said that Skippy could have taken the wings off and trucked the plane away making it a much smaller plane than the tour option.
    But here’s the question, why couldn’t the plane have taken off from Hebgen lake as Henry and Island are both in high elevations as Hebgen?

    If Skippy took off from above 6000 feet in Idaho, why wouldn’t he be able to do that in Montana?

    • Kira,
      I’m not sure of the answer you’re looking for. I ‘thought’ the problem was about water distance needed for that type of plane to take off, and not so much elevation… { but I’m not sure }
      The real question here is; What are you doing snooping through your father’s things young lady?!

    • That is an interesting question. You are correct those lakes are similar in elevation, and Hebgen is larger so distance would not be the issue. My guess would be that he left from a runway or a much lower lake, just because a plane has pontoons does not mean it lacks wheels. I thought it was not mentioned because the plane may have been “borrowed” without the owner’s knowledge.

    • I’m not an expert by any means but if the plane took off from an air strip using wheels at a high altitude there would be less drag and power needed for lift off versus trying to take off on pontoons in a lake – my opinion only. Higher altitude / lower density of the air will reduce engine performance.

      • Seeker: But that’s not the issue. Kiri rightly points out the departure problem. What lower altitude lake in Idaho is within a half-hour flying time of Hebgen Lake? Henry’s Lake is higher altitude than Hebgen and smaller, so that’s no good. Island Park Reservoir is 6,000-feet (500 feet lower than Hebgen), but not nearly as long as Hebgen. Palisades Reservoir is a little over 10 miles long, and 900′ lower (5,620′). However, it is 110 miles away. The maximum speed of floatplanes at that time was around 155 mph, so in theory Skippy could have covered that distance in about 45 minutes. All other lakes are too small or too far away. I don’t think those early floatplanes had wheels, so water takeoff and landing was the only option.

        • Zap,
          I don’t recall if the type of plane was mentioned, other than it was a floater… weight, fuel capacity, engine power, wing span, two passenger etc.
          Attempting to understand where or how… I’d need a bit more to know about. Especially since I’m not familiar with any aircraft in general.
          If this story hints to a method of seeing the clues…line of thinking… does it matter where the plane took off from? I’d think it would matter more of it’s landing point [ lets say heavy loads and water high.] It’s really the only point in the poem [ with water involved, other than the first clue ] as a point supposedly closer to the blaze / chest location[s], right?

          Could you or anyone, for discussion, explain why knowing the other clues that [ in this scenario ] would matter at this point?
          I’m just not following the process/thought, IF there is one.

          • Seeker;

            Regarding your “water” comment. To me, water is THE key element in the solve.
            1) Where warm WATERS halt
            2) and take it (The WATER) down
            3) and “Put in” – a nautical or WATER term.
            4) below the hoB – possibly a reference to Brown Trout that live in WATER.
            5) No place for the meek – possibly relating to sheep, that as an animal needs WATER
            6) There’ll be no paddle up your creek – again a reference to WATER
            7) Just heavy loads and WATER high – self explanatory
            8) Look quicklt down – could refer to DOWNstream – a WATER reference
            9) “…and now I’m weak” – weak can mean WATERed down
            10) “Worth the cold” – could mean ICY – or frozen WATER
            Almost every sentence CAN be interpreted as relating to WATER – so I take exception to your statement that,” [ lets say heavy loads and water high.] It’s really the only point in the poem [ with water involved, other than the first clue ]” Just my opinion – JDA

          • JDA, glad to see you’re back. I was getting ready to send out a search party but couldn’t find where your warm waters halt. Actually I know you have been back a few days and I am a fan. I’m still having difficulty with “warm waters”. The plural still bothers me after all these years. I don’t find a lot of references to “waters” in my research. I’m starting to think this has nothing to do with moving water(s). Throw me a lifeline, please! I know all the theories of 32 degrees but that doesn’t get me anywhere, either. Waters…waters….waters. Also, FF said not to go where an 80 year old would not go. So, flipping that, can it mean DO go where an 80 year old will go. Then there is the cone of silence. That would be an evil blaze.

          • JD. I like your water theory, But I just can’t see Home of Brown referring to brown trout. The poem clues are supposed to stand for hundreds of years. A place that is home to trout now, may not be so indefinitely. Whatever Home of Brown is, in my opinion, must be more permanent than that.

          • JDA,
            I can be nit picky at times myself… But in the context of the “plane” conversation… a mud puddle isn’t going to help. lol or a canyon for that matter.
            If you read the comment, the question related to why we would need to know prior clues [ wet or dry ] if the plane landed at hebgen lake… If wwh scenario is another lake to start out at, with clues between… at a place to land [ the next possible large body of water to land a plane [ HLAWH ]]

            But hey, take all the exception ya like. Just read the post in full.

          • Seeker
            The only descriptionbofbtjebplane was being a two seater, water landing, and Skippy may have taken the wings off to return it to Idaho.
            It sounds very small and simple.

          • Maybe this is some sort of reference to the Spruce Goose? 1947 Flew a few feet above the water for about a mile then never flew again. Spruce = wood? Just reaching a little here.

          • Seeker;

            With all due respect, all too often, your posts are so convoluted with “( – )”‘s ”
            { – }” ‘s and “[ – ]”‘s it is hard for me to figure out just exactly what it is you are saying – but that is just me – I can be pretty dense at times – or should I have said: (But that is just me) – {I can be pretty [dense] at times} – JDA

          • JDA: Great to see you’re back. At times, your subtle humor is..well… ablazing! I know, that’s another hoD discussion thread.

          • TomB – just as an example for HOB = trout reference…what about an area downstream from a major dam? this specific example of mine has a minimum flowrate (due to the bigger picture importance of the water supply) that NEVER freezes, and therefore has created an excellent and year-to-year reliable place for trout fishing. You agree fishing is a HUGE part of FF’s life, right? Why so hard to believe he included something into his poem about one of his favorite things? I’ll go one step further…(this is incomplete still at the moment, not all clues and a couple are very much a s t r e t c h)…what if the ENTIRE poem/clues is indeed ALL about fishing? I haven’t read this thought here before, but I do think my area has certainly been on searchers lists.

            So for a little more…I like the idea that he visited the area by plane later in life, but also he could have visited early in life during the family road trip up to Yellowstone, potentially driving very near to the spot, and lets say his dad learned of the spot due to his love of fly fishing, so possibly this was an annual visit on their way to YNP. The particular dam was existing since early 1900s, with the fishing aspect becoming ‘known’ likely in the 1930s…these timelines work well with my idea of his dad’s involvement, but also the place is still well known today and has stood a pretty good test of time (80+ years). I want to do a write up on this one, but I like it enough to want to go actually look, which won’t be until next spring at the earliest. The ‘all fishing’ theme seems to strike the ‘what took me so long’ idea as well as “What surprises me a little is that nobody to my uncertain knowledge has analyzed one important possibility related to the winning solve.” This is all IMO of course, all ideas (especially about his dad) are speculation on my part, not FACT.

            To keep this in the WWWH thread, I will say my starting spot is a play on words, involves some knowledge of geography and does not require actual walk/start from the exact spot, but it gets you started/confirms the general area (this and the blaze are my weak points for this solve, hence no botg yet).

            If someone guesses it I’ll come clean, it is really the most excited I’ve been so far. One more hint for some fun: an American Sportsman is credited with assigning the name.

        • Hi Seeker,

          “I don’t recall if the type of plane was mentioned, other than it was a floater…”

          No other information. But there weren’t many floatplane options in the 1940s, and maximum speed gives us a sense of maximum range in a given amount of time. I was generous in suggesting that Palisades Reservoir (Snake River) was possible. No way could Skippy get to Hebgen Lake from there in 30 minutes after hanging up the phone. More like double that.

          The reality is that there is no suitable takeoff lake within range, so all I’m suggesting (and presumably Kira was as well) is that there is something fishy about the story (no pun intended) since the timeline doesn’t compute. I wasn’t suggesting it was a hint to anything. I hadn’t even considered the line of thinking that Hebgen Lake might represent “water high.” That’s not bad! But it’s been over 65 years since this took place (assuming it did), so Forrest can certainly be forgiven for being off on the flight time.

          • Hi Zaphod

            Thanks for giving this some thought.

            I don’t know about it fitting any clues or not without knowing if it’s an actual story first. I would guess being waters halt right now because the lake stopped the plane from taking off. If a plane could take off from the lake back then, then maybe it could be a hint.
            It coukd still be a hint it it can’t take off too.
            The story struck me as being odd because how did he get there, if not from somewhere nearby, because he then had to leave from somewhere with the same altitude problems.
            If Forrest wasn’t positive about the time, why mention it. It seems so odd to say 30 minutes and it being a lack of knowing the actual time and is saying look at me, especially with Skippy goofy grin, why grin if he stole it. I would guess Mr Fenn would spank him for that as he was quick to spank.
            Forrest could have written, Skippy called and asked us to be at the lake by 12, or any time.

            IDK, if Forrest just made the time up because it was so long ago, then he could have flown from anywhere and the time is meaningless.

            I would still like to know if it was ever possible to take off from there from a small plane.

          • Hi Kira,

            I’d like to correct your comment that the lake halted the plane from taking off. Air density would have been the primary culprit halting takeoff, however, ambient wind speed and direction, or the lack thereof would have contributed too. Plus, as I interpret “We sure had fun gassing the throttle and splashing around that poor lake trying to get airborne.” He said WE. Forrest’s added weight to the plane would have further compounded the problem assuming Skippy flew in there alone.

            However, I think folks are missing one or two important debate points. How the heck did Skippy get the plane out of the water and disassemble it if the floats had no wheels? That is no small undertaking. That being said, I am not sold that it did not have wheels.

            More importantly, why wouldn’t Skippy talk about how he got it out of there? What’s he got to hide unless ….?

            And a little rabbit hole to open up. If you go upstream of Watkins Creek you run into Coffin Creek……hummm.


          • “I’d like to correct your comment that the lake halted the plane from taking off. Air density would have been the primary culprit halting takeoff, however, ambient wind speed and direction, or the lack thereof would have contributed too”

            Pinatubocharlie, I would argue that the size of the lake and the air density equally contributed to the plane not taking off. If you favorably change one of those two factors then the plane is able to take off. I don’t know though that the poem and a map can point to a plane not taking off of the lake as any of the clues. I’d love to hear a way that it could though.

          • Charlie
            I really don’t know if it fits a clue or not, and combined two elements water and stopping.

            I’m more interested in knowing if there really is an issue taking off with the information Genn provided.

            While I’m sure there’s much lower lakes around, are they low enough and close enough in the some 30 minutes Forrest stated. I know when I say some 30minutes later, its actually less than that time, plus hanging the phone up and getting to the plane take another 5 minutes away, and it’s more likely a 20 minute or less trip when Skippy called.

            With such limitations there doesn’t seem to be lower altitude lakes.
            Perhaps having a 130 pound Forrest made it too much to take off. But would Forrest go with skippy?
            Perhaps the lake was rough and a smooth take off wasn’t possible, so maybe slower speed.
            But Forrest said altitude was the issue and being a skilled pilot as he is, why say altitude as his experience would tell him it could be something else?

          • Hi Kira — well, Forrest mentions time more than a few times in his books and Scrapbooks, and the interesting thing about time units is that they are also used by geographic coordinates (at least the minutes and seconds are). So 30 minutes ~might~ be a hint for a latitude or longitude containing 30′.

            So isn’t it interesting that by far the largest lake within hundreds of miles of Hebgen Lake has latitude 44 degrees 30 minutes cutting right through it? There is even an island in that lake at about 44 degrees 30 minutes 50 seconds, and just offshore a famous historical landmark at 44 deg 30′ 54″, 110 deg 23′ 11″. (Just stirring the pot — I’m not suggesting that island as a resting place for Indulgence.)

          • Zaphid
            I don’t really understand the whole coordinate thingy and how it works, just there is degrees and minutes and they give a point, but to figure out what number is what and where it goes where, seems very hard.

            If there is such a code, would you say it points to where the start is or the chest?

          • Hi Kira: there are so many ways to extract numerical values from either the poem or the books or Forrest’s other communications that I think it’s about as useful an approach to solving the poem as anagramming lines. My post above using the 30 minutes was just an example of the sorts of rabbit holes people can send themselves down; it is not an advisable methodology for solving the poem.

            Do coordinates play a part in the solution? Perhaps. The strongest argument in favor of coordinates is that it is one sure-fire way of navigating someone to a very specific spot. In contrast, think about how difficult it is to direct someone to a precise (but arbitrary) location w/o coordinates. If the clues are to be solvable in a hundred years, you can’t depend on landmarks like trees, rock piles, or small waterways. But semi-permanent features of the landscape tend to be large, making them ill-suited to the task of fine navigation.

            So if you don’t have coordinates, perhaps the next best system is the old pirate way: landmarks coupled with paces in specific directions. Which means you’re back to numbers and counting again. It seems that once you’ve settled on some nondescript, unnamed place in the wilderness as a hiding place, the means of directing others to that precise spot are few.

          • Yes he can be forgiven for being off on the flight time after all of those years by it is a little odd that he would even mention it and be that specific if he wasn’t sure. It could indeed mean something. Nice catch Kiri.

        • JDA

          What can is say. Others seem to comprehend…
          I’ll give ya that my typing skills could use improving and proof reading… but i’m lazy.
          Then again, it seems if something doesn’t match your personal solve, you automatically take exception with it.
          It’s a lose lose no matter what i do….

          • As I said, Seeker, the non comprehension is just my denseness – You been doin’ what you been doiin’ far longer than I have been on the chase. You have a lot of backers and YEA for you. I was just expressing my personal opinion about MY non-ability to comprehend what you have to say at times – the problem is mine, not yours – keep on keepin’ on – JDA

          • What does backers have to do with anything… I’m not sure what you mean by backers yeah for you in the first place.

            Talk about being confused…. Is there a rational point your attempting to make?

          • I was just trying {in my backwards way} to give you a compliment on the number of people who seem to like and approve of your posts, and to say that “I” am the problem not you. Be cool Seeker, I was not attacking you, or at least I was not intentionally attacking you – JDA

          • Never said attack, JDA
            I wanted to understand the relavent to what you meant.

            See you’re not the only one that doesn’t always understand what a blogger is actually say..
            There’s no magical mirror to gaze into to see mannerisms and expression.
            LoL, if I thought it was an attack, I promise my response would not be difficult at all to figure out.

            It’s all good.

    • Thanks for the responses but searching for 1940’s float planes seems to show a wheel/pontoon combo isn’t available.

      That would be another question.
      Does a small plane from around the 1940’s have a wheel/combo option that can fit it a truck?

        • JDA – good to see you back, anything you can elaborate on with your ‘interesting’ comment? I can guess you used your ‘word that is key’ possibly or something else in the geonames search? Not looking for your specific wwwh, just what you found interesting.

          • Yes, I used my keyword, and it worked, but it did not take me to wwwh (I did not expect it to, my keyword is not directly associated with wwwh). – another word did. I also tried a couple of other words, and these words took me to my area – as I expected that they would. Glad to be back – Thanks – JDA

          • Just curious? If we know a few have been in tight focus with a word that is key and a few have figured out the first few clues, wouldn’t it make sense that a word that is key might have something to do with the first few clues? Yes, I know, I could have substituted a couple for a few but I hope you catch my drift.

          • Strawshadow;

            A few (some, a couple) of people have been in tornadoes and survived. Also, a few (some, a couple) of people have survived hurricanes. Stating these two facts does not couple them. The few people that survived the tornado probably were NOT the same “few” that survived a hurricane – your logic is flawed. Just because a “few” have
            “been in tight focus with a word that is key and a few have figured out the first few clues,” No, to me (at least) it “wouldn’t make sense that a word that is key might have something to do with the first few clues?” For me, the word that is key has to do with the “Idea” embedded within the poem that brings it all together – not just a few lines.

            But that is just me – obviously, you see it differently, and that is GREAT! JDA

          • Flawed? Such a harsh word, and so unlike my character. I do like the idea of the ending however, tying it all together or most of it anyway. Perhaps a word that is key, in my flawed way of thinking, might do that as well. If only I was a storm chaser, now wouldn’t that be GREAT!

  23. I bet if you hurry you can ask Adriadne if she knows of a clue to follow. She sets sail soon. A good sailor can feel a pressure drop. She might have the only key though, so you better giddy up.

    (P.s..I don’t know what her hurry is. Maybe she has a tiger in her tank. lol)

  24. Two questions:

    1. Do you think that correctly identifying WWWH requires solving any of the next 8 clues? When I look at a map, and consider a WWWH, I immediately start looking for a canyon down, HOB, etc. Maybe that’s not the right approach. How else could a person be confident they have the correct WWWH if not by identifying other clues?

    2. That leads me to the next question. Could the correct interpretation of “where warm waters halt” have only ONE correct answer? Is it a unique location? For example, if WWWH means a place where warm geyser water halts momentarily at the top of the geysers before coming down… well there is only one region in the Rockies that happens.

    • 1. Do you think that correctly identifying WWWH requires solving any of the next 8 clues? When I look at a map, and consider a WWWH, I immediately start looking for a canyon down, HOB, etc. Maybe that’s not the right approach. How else could a person be confident they have the correct WWWH if not by identifying other clues?

      I would guess that there is something in the poem that helps us determine the right WWWH. Maybe not other clues but something else. Some believe it is in stanza one. If there are no other hints in the poem pointing to WWWH then that would explain why we can’t pinpoint and agree on a for sure WWWH.

      2. That leads me to the next question. Could the correct interpretation of “where warm waters halt” have only ONE correct answer? Is it a unique location? For example, if WWWH means a place where warm geyser water halts momentarily at the top of the geysers before coming down… well there is only one region in the Rockies that happens.

      I’m sure you will get a number of opinions but nobody knows for sure. In your example of a single location being a geyser it sounds like you are referring to Yellowstone as a whole. There are numerous geysers there so do you pick Yellowstone? A group of geysers? A single geyser?

    • Michael you pose two questions:

      1. Do you think that correctly identifying WWWH requires solving any of the next 8 clues? When I look at a map, and consider a WWWH, I immediately start looking for a canyon down, HOB, etc. Maybe that’s not the right approach. How else could a person be confident they have the correct WWWH if not by identifying other clues?

      Michael, I have posted this a number of times, but for me, a very obscure definition of “In the wood” directs me to a specific geographical area in Wyoming. Once there, it is quite easy to identify a wwwh – so, for me the answer is yes, I had to look at the stanza that says, “If you are brave and in the wood, I give you title to the gold.” – I then had to figure out that these words meant, and that led me to my wwwh.

      2. That leads me to the next question. Could the correct interpretation of “where warm waters halt” have only ONE correct answer? Is it a unique location? For example, if WWWH means a place where warm geyser water halts momentarily at the top of the geysers before coming down… well there is only one region in the Rockies that happens.

      For me, the answer is “YES”. – there is only one correct answer. There are MANY places similar to my wwwh in the Rockies, but this is THE ONLY ONE that the poem leads the searcher to – or at least in My Opinion – JDA

    • Mike,
      1) I definitely don’t believe that one needs to figure out any of the clues after wwwh to help figure out which wwwh.

      I believe the first stanza contains a hint that helps pinpoint the correct starting area.

      2) I believe the hints in ttotc and the first stanza of the poem is what leads to an unique geographical area. I don’t think one will ascertain the correct wwwh any other way. Basically, I don’t think thinking about all the wwwh helps any. Lol

      • I agree. The first stanza contains the information to narrow your search to a small region of one state, in my opinion. As I see it, Forrest meant the poem to stand on it’s own.

      • Mike: I agree with Fundamental Design. I don’t think WWWH depends on solving subsequent clues–it stands on its own, and critically depends on a hint found in the first stanza (a hint which I believe is repeated many times in TTOTC and elsewhere). Without the big hint, I think it’s impossible to pinpoint the starting point. That said, in my opinion if you decipher that WWWH, “Take it in the canyon down” will make you feel a lot more confident that you are right.

      • FD, I agree that the poem contains sufficient information to correctly decifer the correct general search area, but I’m not so sure that all the info is in the first stanza.

        Something hit me yesterday related to the poem that I need to spend more time developing, but it take a little time. But time is on all our sides right now with winter rapidly approaching unless someone can make the lines cross at the right spot and just go get it.

        Don’t get me wrong. I’m not saying I’m a poem purist because I believe f when he says other hints are in the TTOTC. Perhaps the other books too.

        That being said, I now find myself quickly moving over towards the line of thinking that the correct solve lies within 2 or 3 “layers” within the poem. Layer 1 being the state, layer 2 the general location, and layer 3, the 9 clues in the poem itself.

        Then it “simply” (yeah, right) becomes a process of eliminating the incorrect places by embracing the circle concept where if you don’t find it, go back to the beginning and start again. Yikes, that could become a gigantic effort if there are more than a couple of places that fit each clue.

        So with all that being said, and if it’s been said or inferred here at the HoD before, then I apologize. But there must still be something, a 4th layer perhaps. So layer 3 yields a smaller area within the general area, so then layer 4 and the 9 clues lead you there.

        Either that, or layer 1 contains both state and local search area.

        Just thinking out loud. Hope this makes sense to someone else besides me.

        And my apologies for such a lengthy post, though it would appear some here really like to hear themselves talk.


    • Mike,
      While I am trying to understand what warm waters halt [ first clue ] refers to… Two thing come to my mind.
      Fenn knew exactly the location… we didn’t.
      Fenn made the clues work the way he wanted… that’s our challenge.

      I’m not sure if the clues tell us of the location [ but thus far, that as been of no help to those who were, might still be, at or going to the location, yet still, didn’t/don’t know they deciphered clues or recognized any other clues ].
      Does fenn tell us of the location of the clues, for that certainty beforehand, where the clues ‘work the way he wanted’ And to that, we need to know something about the location itself-?- to understand the clue references.

      Sure, sure the chatter is marry the clues to a map, right?… Well, what he said was; “a place” on a map.

      To give my opinion to your questions… one location with all the clues working side by side… all the clues are as of one. The ‘location’ might be just as important to understand as any or all the clues combined.

      Call it the synergy theory, if ya like… the whole is greater than the sum of their separate effects.

      • Seeker. yes, I think Fenn tells us the location where the clues are found as a whole. The first stanza giuides you to this location. Then, you begin the your journey through the poem by finding where warm waters halt at that location.

        • TomB,
          It’s great that folks chat about stanzas and how each of us perceives them…
          I have heard many theories… a state, a region, a cemetery [at least a cemetery narrows it down a bit, compared to a state, idea, still leaving many possible for wwh]
          And that is my point;

          What is in stanza 1 that places you in ‘the location of the clues,’ and not so much hundreds of miles ‘where the clue[s] could be within’?
          My post above is a method of thought on how to look at the poem in general… My specifics avenues of approaching the clues are different.

          LOL, if we’re here to chat, lets chat… I have given many thoughts about stanza 1 [example; the journey of “I” line of thinking… As i ~ ISA lake… the watershed~CD… triple divide… Never Summer Mt… yes; a cemetery… and other ideas. And yet, more ideas from other stanzas as well].

          What say you-?- what is it about stanza 1 that gives/guides to “the” location of clue one and/or all the clues.

          • “riches new and old” to me points to New Nexico. And, we know it’s north of Santa Fe. So, my search is narrowed to northern New Mexico.

          • Further, I think “riches new and old” points you to a specific region in northern New Mexico.

          • OK Tom, Now we’re chatting…
            Don’t tell me were that “specific region” you think is… I’m more interested in the process that took you there.

            I’d like to know is that process in the poem or outside the poem in the research area of the unknowns.
            That is not knocking your thought…

            But, if the poem and/or known information [ such as N. of SF ] doesn’t narrow a state down to a specific first clue or clues area… isn’t that just a guess?
            Maybe a more direct way of asking is… What came from the poem to indicate that “special region” thought?

            Again, I don’t care about where, and more about how your thought process brought you to it.

            Example; In the thought that “I” can refer to “us” as in; knowledge of self or self knowledge or the human race… lead me to a process of reading the poem as a journey of “I” … the glacial period and the change from the Clovis to Folsom time line… the thought of ‘down the road’ etc. etc.
            But fenn kicked my butt with the many wwwh comment and “nearly all are N. of SF.”

          • Tom if you’re talking about New and Old as territories… I can see where ya going with it.
            Just curious on the process, that’s all.

        • Trying to explain without divulging too much. And, yes, count me among the many on this site that think they have solved the poem. Riches new and old prompts me to think of a “rich history”. Also, I do see a couple of hints in the book (first one with poem). I haven’t gotten the second or third book. So, from what i’ve told you, I have a relatively small region to search for the starting point (where warm waters halt). I don’t believe the poem or book tell you what that is. That I got from the clue itself.

        • Batty… First off, great name. Ya got to be a little batty to be in the challenge. lol
          Second; I wish I ‘have it’.. But all I have is my one and only working noodle trying to read this poem the way fenn intended it to be read, and not so much how we think it should be.

          The same goes for the ATF comments; I personally can’t take one [ for example the above Q&A ] and think it means this or that, while I ignore a later comment, and not try to see the truth in both, as related to each other.

          So I’m curious what you would think of the Q&A from Curtis ~ follow clues described or took a short cut? and fenn’s answer [ that question alone ]
          And then…
          What you would think when you add fenn’s comment ‘he followed the clues *when he hid the chest*’

          I kinda agree with Birdie… that IF all we had was that Q&A and nothing more to relate to it, fenn could be saying “a searcher must follow the clues” and not so much that he did as well.
          However, I cant dismiss fenn’s much later comment that he did the same, as he tell us to do.

          In this case “follow” is a physical ‘movement’ with the clues and not so much; “follow” as an ‘understanding’ [such as following on a map].
          Fenn would not “need” or “should have to” follow the clues on a map… he created the clues for us [searchers] to follow… he could have skipped the clues on a map and went directly to the hidey space, right? or the last clue that was needed for botg.

          But now, we have him telling us… he did “follow” the clues “when he hid the chest”

          In my mind… this helps understand that NFBTFW is not likely a 10 or 20 miles distance between any given clue[s] [such as wwwh to hoB for example]
          That would mean fenn could have shortcut the clues and started at hoB…”when he hid the chest”
          Those words “when I hid the chest” is a physical movement/action of the word “follow.” Not the word’s means as; “understanding,” of the word follow.

          BTW, I don’t recall seeing your “BATTY”[screen name] posted before… are you relatively new to the chase or first time poster… or is my noodle starting to get limp?

    • Thanks for the feedback, very interesting considerations.

      For quite a while I was interested in the Valles Caldera region in NM, particularly Soda Dam. This video explains how warm water halts there:

      Of course “WWWH is not related to any dam” kind of blew the lid off of that theory.

      • just a thought exercise…could that quote (not related to a dam) still leave enough interpretation open for wwwh = the reservoir (just not the dam)? And also, I don’t rule out dams as part of later clues, since it only references wwwh…water high could still be a dam/reservoir.

  25. Your questions go right to the heart of the dilemma, Michael Frans – the Chase lacks any feedback mechanism unless and until you find the chest. Which, for the most part, has made it more like a scavenger hunt than a traditional treasure hunt so far.

    Which makes your “maybe that’s not the right approach” (or a variant like “maybe we’re not ‘reading’ the poem right) a handy thought to keep in your back pocket.

    1. Reminds me of the old joke “If we had some eggs, we could make bacon and eggs, if we had any bacon.”

    2. “There are many places in the Rocky Mountains where warm waters halt, and nearly all of them are north of Santa Fe.”* Leaves open to question whether he’s including many DIFFERENT KINDS of Warm-Water-Halts, or many places where the PARTICULAR KIND of Warm-Water-Halts that he’s thinking of occur.

    If it’s the latter, then “nearly all of them” suggests an off-the-wall kind of search. Look first in the vanishingly small area of the Rocky Mountains that is SOUTH of Santa Fe and find a Warm-Waters-Halt, then see if you can find many more of that kind north of Santa Fe. Rules out glaciers, anyway – and geysers too?

    *(see also “There’s ten billion blazes out there” for the flip side of that coin)


    • JAKe,
      The thought process of narrowing down types of possible wwh interpretation does help with the rabbit holes.
      But even in a smaller area of the RM’s [S.of SF] there is no way to narrow down a specific type, nevertheless, “the” one and only out of anyone one type [particular kind].

      What fenn had to ‘create the clues’… was the thought of WWWH even on his mind? Although knew where he want the chest to be, right?
      This thought leads me to ask the most important question we might want to ask ourselves: Why the heck am I trying to find the first clue when I don’t know where that first clue is? or any clue at all…
      The very first piece of information we had was;
      “I warned that the path would not be direct for those who had no certainty of the location beforehand, but sure for the one who did.” f
      It would seem to me that the path involves the clues, as the ‘direct’ path… But, the “certainty of the location” is a must know prior to ‘that’ direct path [the “clues” that get us closer]
      IF you look at the poem in this manner… does it change you’re perspective as to what we should be looking for first and foremost?
      Think of it this way… fenn tells us he followed the clues when he hid the chest, right? Which can be implied he needed to “follow the clue” as he tells us to.
      BUT, he ‘knew’ the location prior… Do we?… Did fenn tell us what “he knew” from his very first thought/start of the challenge~ “certainty of the location” .. the thought that will give us that ‘confidence we can proceed with’-?- the correct interpretation of the 9 clues.

      “What surprises me a little is that nobody to my uncertain knowledge has analyzed one important possibility related to the winning solve” [Feb of 2015.]… A comment made well after those searchers who deciphered, indicated, figured the first couple of clues, been so close, and “didn’t know it” [ comments stated in early 2013 ].

      Think about that… they didn’t know…
      I could think, that they only knew what a clue [first two] referred to… a “type or particular kind” of clue reference… but not understand the “location” around them to correctly match later clues, that they seemingly walked right by, unnoticed.
      Now the question fall to… what is it about the location and wwwh to be nailed down, that might bring out the correct interpretations of those remaining clues, in the correct order?
      And/Or Does nailing down the first clue only, to be the “one place” of the type or particular kind… which doesn’t seem to be helping to think that way… just simply deciphering a particular kind.

      IMO… those who ‘deciphered’ the first two clue [type] found the location by a guess… example; new and old NM, treasures for treasure state MT etc. But didn’t know they ‘happened’ upon the right location or “why” the possible significance of where they were. Hence, the idea of solving the clues at home? “yes, in theory, but not in practice…”

      Sorry for the long post, again, But if we are really going to actually talk about the information… it’s not easily done without explanations of thoughts. Or I could just type out a fortune cookie post… and look like… I know something.

      LOL so JAke… my long post is, your fault, if you think about it… your post pulled me in to “chat” about it. Now I feel better.

      • Mr. Chatty…I’m going to stew on that post and get back to it after I unload my truck(work related). I will say this first…You(Seeker) did post a day or so ago about Fenn’s comment in re new searchers…marry the clues to a “place”. Is that to be taken as; All of the clues are one place…or the individual clues refer to places?

        • Ken,
          We might want to move this to the “poem” thread… just a thought. It’s more about the poem as a whole than any individual clue reference.

      • Seeker. Forrest said: “There are many places in the Rocky Mountains where warm waters halt, and nearly all of them are north of Santa Fe.” He also made a statement to the effect that if all you have is the clue where warm waters halt, somewhere in the Rocky Mountains, then you can’t find the location. A logical deduction is that, to Fenn, where warm waters halt stands out because of it’s physical location, and not because of other unique characteristics.

        • I’m not buying all the talk about only one physical path to the treasure. To me, it’s obvious that he knew where he wanted to hide the treasure, so he worked out a clue path away from the treasure site, and then reversed the clue path for the poem. Others may think differently, of course, but this is the way I see it.

          • TomB

            I agree with the last part – reverse engineering the poem as being how Forrest wrote the poem, but I disagree
            with you when you say: “I’m not buying all the talk about only one physical path to the treasure”. I see it as one way in – one way out. No other way to do it. – JDA

          • JD. If there is only one way in and out, then what you are describing is a direct path from where warm waters halt (the starting point) to the blaze/treasure (the ending point). There would be no need for any intervening clues (such as Home of Brown, no place for the meek, no paddle up your creek, etc), because once we start down the canyon from where warm waters halt, the “only way in” leads us directly to the end point.

          • Tom B;

            Yes – no. In my solve, one takes a particular road that passes near wwwh, it then parallels the canyon down, and goes past hoB. At this point, one leaves the road he/she was on, and turns onto a new road that is one-way-in, one-way-out, So, a description of wwwh, canyon and hoB was needed, to know where to “Put in” (or turn). On the new road having a description of the “No Meek Place” reassures the searcher that he/she is on the right path. How far should one go down this one-way road? The END is ever drawing nigh says to go to the end. “No paddle up your creek, just heavy loads and water high” tell what to look for once the BotG hike begins, and then the blaze, Tarry Scant and marvel gaze are the final clues. Hike, find Indulgence, and backtrack to where ever “home” is. That’s just how I see it.

            Without all of the info between wwwh and the blaze and Tarry scant, one would never KNOW they were on the right path. JMO – JDA

        • Q~Someone unfamiliar with your poem receives a message that says “meet me where warm waters halt, somewhere in the mountains north of Santa Fe”. Would they be able to work out where to go? If they can’t, would they need the whole poem, another stanza, or just a line or word to help them on their way? ~Phil Bayman 
          A~There are a few words in the poem that are not useful in finding the treasure Phil, but it is risky to discount any of them. You over simplify the clues. There are many places in the Rocky Mountains where warm waters halt, and nearly all of them are north of Santa Fe. Look at the big picture, there are no short cuts. f 

          Q~ *~You tell us that we should find “where warm waters halt” before trying to solve any of the other clues. Imagining that we haven’t seen the rest of the poem, and all we have to go on is:
          a. “begin it where warm waters halt” and
          b. “somewhere in the mountains north of Santa Fe”
          Do you think that we can confidently determine the starting place for your treasure trail? ~ Steve
          A~ No, if all you have to go on are those two clues you cannot proceed with confidence. Look at it this way. If you were making a cake and you left out a few ingredients, would you achieve your goal?
          [Your question reminds me of another:  You leave home and walk a straight line for a mile, turn 90 degrees left and walk a curved line for a mile and shoot a bear. Then you turn 90 degrees left again and walk a straight line back to your home. What color is the bear?f ]

          What ingredient[s] are being left out of both questions that you are referring to?
          I mean, we have fenn saying the first four clues might have been deciphered, but he is uncertain, right?
          It could be that many if not all the clues have been deciphered [ maybe not in the correct order ] So what important ingredient might be missing?

          It would seem we have the directions [clues] and it would seem we need to follow the instruction in order… what’s missing?
          The beaters and mixing bowl? The color of the bear we shot?
          Or where is home?

          What confuses folks about my post is not that I talk over their heads… its when fenn answers a question or makes a comment… I look at it as a thought, and not so much, yet another clue being handed to us.

          The thought here is two other comments fenn has made… need to know where to start and start at the beginning.
          Many want that to be the clue that glues wwwh.
          I’m not so sure.
          fenn did say in 2013 wwh is the first clue. So why say later those two comments, if we shouldn’t think about something.

          Look at it this way; fenn said the chest is wet, leading many to believe hid in water. The probably wet, and later fenn said in a Q&A “…i’m not ready to say the chest is not in water”
          Doesn’t that raise an eyebrow for you?
          The fenn finally came out and stated… not under water.

          Is my thoughts of “start” and “begin” so far off we shouldn’t think, chat about the possibility-?- that the first clue is an important clues to know or stay home, and not ask why it is where it is? or the certainty of the location beforehand? Because “deciphering” [ its reference to ‘what’ it is] alone has failed miserably… from the very least time span of 2103, thru now, going into 2018.

          Hey Dal, Just a thought, would it be unreasonable to have a ‘decipher the ATF thread’…lol we can call it the ‘Fetching the bones’ thread.

          • Seeker. What is missing, in my opinion, is the blaze. Multiple people have, I believe, correctly deciphered where warm waters halt and the home of Brown, but they weren’t sure they had because they could not decipher the blaze. There is no way to be sure of the first two clues until you have the complete path. Most of my effort now is applied to identifying the blaze (what are it’s characteristics).

          • Seeker,

            I agree with what you are saying, every clue must be tied together in the correct order, [top to bottom] in the sequence of the poem. I believe if one can’t do that then the TC can’t be found.

  26. Maybe another way to look at it is, if we eliminated all hot springs, would there still be many warm waters? I think that would leave about a dozen.

    • A warm-waters-HALT count could include glaciers – there are a bit under 100 USGS-named glaciers in the search area (none in New Mexico).


      Barely a handful of slide-dammed lakes. Same with points on the Continental Divide where the waters flow both ways from virtually the same small source. One big endorheic basin. Lots of fossils and petrified wood.

  27. I think we have to consider , The family friendly, not in a dangerous place aspect. Also Mr. Fenn is a people person, he referred to himself as a schmoozer, at CW. In TTOTC on page 137 he says ” there will be laughter and glee”, when his hidden things are found. I think he still want’s that companionship, even in death.

  28. Does anyone recall FF’s response when asked what he considered to be “north”? I seem to think he answered that question as anything from 276 degrees to 89 degrees. Am I imagining this?

  29. Just a heads up… there hasn’t been much traffic on warmwatersfound.com and I’ve posted 90%+ of the 55 that have been identified myself. I’m hoping that the end of the season will increase traffic and motivate some people to share their discarded WWWH, but in the event that doesn’t happen, there’s not really a point to the site existing.

    • That’s a fair point. To be quite honest, I have my own theiory as to WWWH, and it’s a radical departure from everything I see posted, but I’m not willing to post it yet- not until it’s been tried in the field first. As to this site, I’m interested in knowing whether others have come to a similar conclusion (and are willing to post it), as I have.
      I’ll be testing out my theory in a few days when I fly to the Rockies myself… wish me luck…

    • FMC, my WWH is an obscure spot. I have seen it mentioned (only once that I am aware of) on HOD, but not as WWH. So, I think people have been there, but they didn’t realize the significance of the place. So, my WWH has not been discarded yet and therefore, can’t be posted on your website. I appreciate the effort you put into the site though.

    • I read this post and the two responses and had to grin when I hear words like ‘radical departure from everything I see’ or ‘WWH is an obscure spot. I have seen it mentioned’… and other postings similar to ‘ no one has the same wwh has me.’

      I have to wonder IF a few, several, more than several, and the count keeps climbing, [w/some may have the first four clues] of those who in the beginning [prior to 2013] and later have deciphered, indicated, figured out the first clue[s]… wwh should be such a radical, obscure thought.

      The problem I see is; the idea of the first clue isn’t nailed down. I won’t pretend to know what fenn means by that… and early searchers on location of wwwh didn’t either.

      FMC you said ~”I’ve posted 90%+ of the 55 that have been identified myself”
      I have to ask, is that 55 of same types wwwh in different locations or 55 different types wwwh?
      To be honest, In my mind, you could have a thousand wwwh locations [which would make your site look good] but, if they’re all the same or relatively the same [examples; a waterfall or merging rivers] its a lost battle to start with, IF you don’t have the ‘correct reference’ to WWWH… I’m not knocking your attempt… I’m just pointing out the flaws in the thought that it could narrow down anything at all.
      This type of attempt was done years back [ maybe 4 years ago] to show how many hoB could be N. of SF… there were many, many to say the least… yet as of today… fenn has not mentioned, any clue correct, other than the first two.
      IDK, I just think the process give more hope than help, and very little thinking and analyzing. The again, many folks live on the hope; that everything will just work itself out in their favor.

      Just a commentary post/reply with ..IMO, all over it.

      • What I mean by “radical departure” is not in the location per se, but how I interpret the lines and overall structure of the poem. From the hundreds of examples I’ve read for all the many lines, WWWH, HOB, NOFTM etc, none come to conclusions I’ve come to- not even close, and I come to those conclusions without messing with the poem at all. Wish I could explain more,

      • The places posted are actual places, not different ideas. There may be only a handful of ideas about wwwh, but even if multiple hot springs are identified, they all are going to have different canyons down, different potential hob, etc. The time/$ saved knowing x wwwh has been looked at is one thing, but compiling the various thought processes (both for wwwh and the resulting clues is the true value imo).

        I completely understand people not sharing their active wwwh (I’m not sharing my current one either), but we all know that thinking about the poem and possibilities can become a time-consuming item and it just seems like there should be more wwwh discards than what’s been posted in the solves here and what I can come up with.

      • Seeker,
        You didn’t have to be so snarky about my post. You could have just started with the second paragraph. You will not bait me into revealing more that I care to.
        I guess I’m just too thin skinned to ever post. Most of the time, I write up a post and then delete it all. I guess I should have done that this morning.

        • Baiting? I could careless about anyone special little solve… If ya got your head out of the clouds, you might have pickup on, the fact that early on in the chase’s first couple years; folks were solving two clues on location… Long before all the blog chatter kicked into high gear with all kinds of ideas for WWWH ~ out of the box, obscured, radical, one of a kind, 1000’s of hours researching, to figure out those two first clues.

          Snarky? lol I guess you are correct… too thin skinned. Oh! have a glorious day, God bless everyone and little Tim too, may sun shine and daisies bloom your path, and may your frown always be upside down…. So I’m not misunderstood again, That’s “Snarky”

          • My smile is certainly not upside down today. My brother had a kidney transplant on Monday and I went to Cincinnati to see him today. So, it was a wonderful day! God is good -IMO!

            Go ahead and be snarky, I don’t care. I’m done posting.

          • Seeker – have you managed to overcome your agoraphobia enough to emerge from that basement for your first (good ol’ fashioned) botg search yet? ..as there’s nothing quite like a brave, cold adventure into Mother Nature to wipe a cynical smile off ones face, imho

            JBL – hope ya bruv is doing ok, and if ya need a spare kidney (or two) in future, i might know someone who’s not using their ones very constructively 🙂

          • Hey CH, my brother is doing great, Thanks for asking. Now, you’re not into that black market, selling other peoples’ body parts are ya? Well, if you are and I find the chest, could I put in a request for Kate Upton’s whole body? I hear it’s pretty good and my husband certainly wouldn’t complain.

          • Otherwise, the only chance that I will ever have a smokin’ hot body is if I’m cremated. 😉

          • Hi JBL – glad to hear all is well 🙂

            btw, the modern terminology is actually “involuntary organ donation” ..and yes, i’ll be happy to fed-ex Kate Uptons’ body to you, as soon as it passes the rigorous quality-assurance testing, which could take me a few weeks..

            ( …or several months even 🙂 )

          • Thank you for being thorough in your inspection. You can get started now, and by the time I find indulgence, maybe, just maybe, you will be finished.

    • Hi FMC – at the very least you should be congratulated for offering to compile everyone’s failed WWWH’s in one place. There was a website a couple years ago that attempted to do something similar that had hundreds of “dots” on it (not all of them for WWWH — some were for other things like home of Brown or the blaze). That site was up for maybe a week or two before it was taken down.

      For those who poo-poo the idea, there is some value in the exercise. It shows you just how many “reasonable” WWWH’s you can find in the Rockies. I have an Excel spreadsheet covering ~3000 7.5-minute topo maps in Montana, Wyoming, and about 2/3 of Colorado that tallies over 120 WWWH’s, Browns, blazes, canyons down, etc. that I found in the thousand or so hours I spent scrutinizing all those maps. What you discover is that nearly all of the WWWH’s that people choose are no better than any of the others, and therefore there is no way you could “nail down” one as being unambiguously, obviously the correct one. In short, if they’re all more or less equal, they’re all wrong.

      IMO, the correct WWWH is not like any of these. It isn’t one hot or warm spring that is somehow “better” than all the other thousands in the four states. And again, in my opinion, it isn’t associated with a dam, a glacier, a reservoir or a lake for pretty much the same reason: how can you choose that magical one over all the others? You can’t. It’s arbitrary.

      Forrest has written/said a lot about the first clue and its importance:

      “The most common mistake that I see searchers make is that they underestimate the importance of the first clue. If you don’t have that one nailed down you might as well stay home and play Canasta.”

      “I cannot tell you how many searchers have identified the first clue correctly, but certainly more than several. I cannot imagine anyone finding the treasure without first identifying the starting point, although many seem to be preoccupied with later clues. To me that’s just expensive folly.”

      “If you can’t solve the first clue you should not spend your money searching.”

      What these statements tell you is that the first clue (WWWH) *is* solvable. And solvable on its own without the benefit of figuring out *later* clues. This is a key point that I don’t think enough searchers focus on. If the strength of your WWWH critically depends on what you believe are the answers to later clues, it’s almost certainly wrong — for the very reason that some of the earliest searchers solved WWWH without also correctly solving any of the clues that follow.

      • Zaphod,

        To say, “If the strength of your WWWH critically depends on what you believe are the answers to later clues, it’s almost certainly wrong…” I disagree, the only way in my opinion to be sure about WWWH, is that all of the clues from that point on do depend on the starting point. All of the clues must easily fit the poem and not be forced. Each clue has to be supported by the previous clue except for the blaze.

      • Hi ChalieM: I think you’re missing a logic subtlety here. I’m saying that if your WWWH as a standalone clue has nothing unique about it that distinguishes it from all the other possible WWWH’s in the Rockies, it’s probably wrong. When people say their WWWH is surely correct only because it leads to a proximate canyon down, home of Brown, no paddle up your creek, no place for the meek, blaze, etc., then that is not standalone. In that case its strength lies only in its geographic relation to what that searcher believes are answers to subsequent clues.

        But that’s not what has happened in the past, is it? Searchers long ago evidently solved WWWH (whether they knew it or not) and some solved one more clue, but got everything else wrong. So clearly the correctness of their WWWH had zero dependence on those later clues. But in spite of having clues 3 and beyond all wrong, they did still figure out WWWH. We must therefore conclude that WWWH is solvable all by itself.

        • Zaphod
          If the 1st clue is so distinctive to seperate it from all others, then why didn’t those searchers understand the significance of being where they where?
          Perhaps the waters isn’t unique and you need other clues to identify it.
          This seems supported when Forrest says, you won’t know you have the correct warm waters until you have the chest.
          A play on your avatar, What if a golden goblet isn’t the wise choice and a cup of a carpenter is needed?

        • It does stand to reason that WWWH can be solvable on it’s own without finding the remaining clues since people seem to have done it. I am aware of his statements about searchers finding the first two clues but has FF stated that people have found the first clue alone without solving the second? His statement “I cannot tell you how many searchers have identified the first clue correctly, but certainly more than several. ” doesn’t rule out them solving the second clue necessarily. It seems like the second clue should be easy after the first, assuming it is canyon down. After that one people seem to have a problem getting clue 3 down.

          What I find a little confusing is these two quotes that seem to somewhat contradict themselves:
          “If you can’t solve the first clue you should not spend your money searching.”
          “No, many people have found the first clue but they didn’t know it. Until someone finds the treasure they will not know for sure that they have discovered the first clue.”

          We shouldn’t spend money searching unless we have the first clue but will not know for sure we have it till we find the treasure. hmmm..

        • Zap;

          You say, ” I’m saying that if your WWWH as a standalone clue has nothing unique about it that distinguishes it from all the other possible WWWH’s in the Rockies, it’s probably wrong.”

          How do you imagine your wwwh as a stand alone clue that is unique and distinguishes itself from all other possible wwwh’s in the Rockies. That is a pretty tall order isn’t it?

          I think that Forrest chose his wwwh just because it WAS like 10,000 other wwwh’s that are to be found in the Rockies.

          What is unique about it is where it is found, and only the most astute searcher would be able to figure out “From the poem” just where this particular wwwh lies.

          Let’s say that the correct wwwh IS associated with a geothermal feature like a guyser fed or Hot spring fed source of warm water. Especially in Montana and Wyoming, and even in Colorado or New Mexico there are such geothermal features.
          That being said, how do we pick the correct one? Not because of it’s spectacular nature – like “Old Faithful” – but rather because something found “Within the poem” directs the searcher to this one specific geothermal feature. “All you need is the poem and a good map” – or words to that effect. You do not need Google or a compendium of “Geothermal features in the Rockies” to find the most spectacular one – Just read and understand what is hidden within the lines of the poem. Knowlege (no d) and Imagination plus the poem and GE or a good map. JMHO – JDA

        • Unique, stand alone, need other clues etc. or not Zap,
          How can you make these comments ‘true’ {paraphrasing}

          ~You won’t know the first clue until the chest is found.
          ~If you don’t know the first clue, stay home.

          ~If you know hoB why be concerned about WWH.
          ~Searcher don’t dwell enough on the first clue.
          ~If you knew hoB you’d go right to the chest.
          ~If you can’t find the chest, go back to the first clue.
          ~follow the clues there are no short cuts.
          ~fenn followed the clues when he went and hid the chest.

          For wwh to be a stand alone, that works for some of those comments.
          For other clues involve that works for some of those comments.
          You used 4 letters system to figure a date of the hiding [and other things]. Does the other letters tell what the clues are in reference to? If this, then all you need is the last clue reference, right?
          Or do they explain how the poem works in order to find the chest? If this, then the other clues are needed in conjunction to wwwh, right?
          But the most important question… can the idea using the same system explain all those ATF as Being True?

          Kinda weird if you don’t find the chest we need to start back at wwwh, and not so much hoB, or the last clue, and wwwh be a stand alone clue, or we need wwwh or stay home.
          But we don’t seem to need wwwh, if we know hoB [ possibly any later clue as well, because of the ~’Last clue’ wanted comment].
          And still we can’t go looking for later clues, cause that would be a short cut, right? Follow the clues there’s no other way… Seemingly For fenn As Well, Right?

          How can wwwh be a “stand alone” clue and hoB ‘not be directly connected’ [ or other clues ] to it; IF we are always told without the first clue you have notta, stay home, don’t waste your money, or enjoy the vacation…. because that is all you’ll have a nice vacation.

          I have one thought, if you recall, hoB is where wwwh “put in below” and “from there” [at wwwh] that no place for the meek can be found. BUT without the correct reference and location of WWWH you can not find hoB, and the “significance” related to the right first clue. ~ “Most” of the clues did existed when fenn was a kid, comment.~ So possibly not all the clues can be found on a map… “In theory yes, but not in practice…” This would make wwh and hoB the same place, however, hoB is needed to be understood in the order of the poem, because of how we located “no place for the meek………… well, in theory anyways.

          • Seeker, I lost track of why you said wwwh and hob are the same thing. The idea is interesting.

          • Fun,
            The concept is wwh,[and maybe all the clues], Put in below hoB.
            To understand the correct wwwh, out of the many, we might need to understand its home first… a later clue.

            The idea is, we can find wwwh on a map, but not be certainty until the rest of the clues reference, and/or at least the correct order of the clues, reveal themselves.

            If you knew what hoB was you’d go right to the chest.. and.. if you knew hoB why be concerned about wwwh comments.
            Think of it as, where is your home… to where is wwwh’s home.

            It would be the same if I said; begin it at the pharmacy, take it in the sporting good department, groceries, clothing, jewelry, etc….
            Where is the pharmacy department’s home…?

            I think hoB is home to the clues, but not known until we understand what wwwh refers to, and “why there”… LOL, in this case ‘home’ would be the word that is key.
            The first searchers indicated wwwh, solved it’s “reference”, but didn’t know it because, They kept going; to look for hoB in some canyon or beyond the canyon. They didn’t nail wwwh down, and surely did seem to “dwell” on it enough.

            All the above is a theory, but it does seem to answer… nail down the first clue or stay home… certainty of the ‘location’ beforehand… all the information to find the chest is in the poem… and won’t ‘know’ the first until the chest is found… Because the first clue’s location / home, must be ‘understood’ to follow the clues in the ‘correct order OF reading the poem.’

            Fenn knew right where he wanted the chest and him to lay in wait. Home is not where you live life, as much as, where you lay your head.

        • Hi JDA,

          “How do you imagine your wwwh as a stand alone clue that is unique and distinguishes itself from all other possible wwwh’s in the Rockies. That is a pretty tall order isn’t it?”

          Yes It is. Forrest could have provided the clue in many different poetic ways, but by choosing “where warm waters halt” he knew the vagueness of that description would initially send searchers to thousands of places (which apparently it has). Since only one of those is right, and one person can’t possibly visit them all in a lifetime, how is it that a number of searchers fairly early-on managed to choose the correct one and yet had at most 2 clues solved? Tells me that whatever logic they applied to decipher WWWH, it wasn’t dependent on having clues 3-9 correct. So that’s why I was arguing that if a searcher only picked a WWWH because it provided sensible answers to clues 3 and beyond, and perhaps they never would have considered that WWWH except for those later clues, then how did those early searchers get it right?

          “I think that Forrest chose his wwwh just because it WAS like 10,000 other wwwh’s that are to be found in the Rockies.”

          I maintain (as I believe you do) that Forrest’s construction of the clue is unique in that I believe it unambiguously singles out one point on the map. I just happen to think it’s a “Duh, what took me so long?” solution.

          “Let’s say that the correct wwwh IS associated with a geothermal feature like a guyser fed or Hot spring fed source of warm water.”

          Okay. I’m sure a lot of searchers believe exactly that.

          “That being said, how do we pick the correct one? Not because of it’s spectacular nature – like “Old Faithful” – but rather because something found “Within the poem” directs the searcher to this one specific geothermal feature.”

          On this, I agree on the methodology. There’s nothing particularly remarkable about the spot. But the proper decipherment of the poem nevertheless singles it out — and in my case it does so without any dependence on solving a later clue.

          • Zap, ~’Tells me that whatever logic they applied to decipher WWWH, it wasn’t dependent on having clues 3-9 correct.’
            { first two clues solvers }

            LOL… BUT, they didn’t know they solved those clues, right? And other’s arrivals might be by aberrations, right? And it would seem none knew the significance of where they were [and possibly searchers still arriving at the same location of the first clue not knowing as well].

            Doesn’t that alone give pause that another clue is so closely related to wwwh, that later clue is a must know or known of [ prior ] to “nail down” wwwh~ one and only correct clue reference?

            If you don’t have the first clue “nailed down” – stay home, thought… And… all the information to find the chest is in the poem, thought? Seems to work together and not separately, imo. [see my more lengthily explanation in response to another post of yours].

        • Seeker: long post, so let me respond to just the first half.

          “How can you make these comments ‘true’ {paraphrasing}”

          “~You won’t know the first clue until the chest is found.
          ~If you don’t know the first clue, stay home.”

          I think the answer to this apparent contradiction lies in the meaning of the word “know.” No one can possibly *know* they have solved the first clue without also *knowing* where the chest is located, and proof of the latter can only happen if you’re in possession of Indulgence. So if this definition of “know” is used for both statements, the chest will stay put for eternity because no one can or should leave home.

          So instead, w.r.t. that first clue, I think it’s safe to say that Forrest beseeches us to be very sure we’ve got it nailed down before committing time and money to go searching. Certainty is not possible, and since Forrest clearly wants people out there enjoying nature, smelling the sunshine, and turning over a few logs, it’s sufficient to be very confident. (Clearly 99.9% of searchers err on the side of being overly optimistic because they’ve never been to the right WWWH.)

          “~If you know hoB why be concerned about WWH.”

          This speaks to linearity/continuity to me. If to get from WWWH to the chest requires solving hoB, if you “know” (there’s that pesky word again) hoB, then it stands to reason that WWWH may no longer be relevant. But I think what Forrest is really saying is that he doesn’t think you’ve got a hope of figuring out hoB without first solving WWWH. Same goes for the blaze.

          “~Searcher don’t dwell enough on the first clue.”

          Here he may be eluding to the fact that a lot of searchers skip ahead and concentrate on home of Brown or the blaze, erroneously thinking they might be easier to solve than WWWH.

          “~If you knew hoB you’d go right to the chest.”

          Since the wording of the question and answer are very important, I want to repost them here:

          “But you didn’t answer my question. Who’s Brown?”

          Forrest replied, smiling, “Well, that’s for you to find … if I told you that, you’d go right to the chest!”

          I think it was a flippant response to a persistent interviewer asking “Who’s Brown?” “Metaphorically speaking,” if Forrest told you where or what home of Brown was, it might very well eliminate 99.99% of the shaded map.

          “~If you can’t find the chest, go back to the first clue.”

          Sounds like good advice. Basically, question all your assumptions.

          “~follow the clues there are no short cuts.”

          Thus my remarks above about searchers engaging in the folly of trying to solve home of Brown or the blaze first. A waste of time.

          “~fenn followed the clues when he went and hid the chest.”

          It could be that the clues are laid out such that they follow the only reasonable route from beginning to end. And, playing Devil’s Advocate on your behalf, if all the clues are essentially co-located, “following” all the clues might be just a mental exercise.

          • Zap, Yep, long post… if I didn’t paraphrase its would be longer than all of fenn’s SB’s combined.

            Ok… you used ‘eluded to’ many times… I was looking more for how ‘All’ the comments, Q&A’s etc. can ring true to anyone [searcher’s] full solve [including] the first clue.
            All those comments are in reference to the poem and/or the challenge in general… It would seem to me if we can produce a solve at home, nail down the first clue or “stay home” etc. Why would it be we * won’t know the first clue * until the chest is found?

            Sure, Sure it can be a metaphorical type answer… we won’t know anything unless we solve the whole thing, line of thinking… However, The one thing fenn consistently says… Don’t leave home without it ~ the first clue nailed down.

            It can’t be both ways [ know before or only know after ]…
            How can we make both comments true from the guy who designed the poem -?- without one be remotely false.
            I mean, so far, those who have “solved” the clues didn’t “know” they did so… per fenn, right? Nothing about the first clue was “nailed down” only told of to the man who, well, knows all.

            What were those searchers and seemingly, later searchers, missing? a wrong turn? or another part of poem that is a should known prior… to nail that first critical clue down [ or again, “stay home” LOL even if found on a map ].

          • Hi Seeker,

            “I was looking more for how ‘All’ the comments, Q&A’s etc. can ring true to anyone [searcher’s] full solve [including] the first clue.”

            As well you should! It’s rather helpful that Forrest has provided such a litany of tests that any searcher can run their ideas through, and nearly all of those ideas will fail (not that that seems to deter anyone).

            “Why would it be we * won’t know the first clue * until the chest is found? Sure, Sure it can be a metaphorical type answer… we won’t know anything unless we solve the whole thing, line of thinking…”

            Yes, you’ve answered your own question. It’s a bit like a murder trial. The jurors will never know with certainty that the defendant murdered (assuming none were eyewitnesses); but that shouldn’t prevent them from rendering a guilty verdict in the absence of “reasonable doubt.”

    • FMC – do you have;

      Ice Box Canyon @ 44°55’21.29″N -110° 5’35.22″W

      Soda Butte (dormant) geyser @ 44°52’23.49″N -110°10’4.38″W (?)

      if not, then just pay my $1 hobbits fee directly to SL

    • fmc nice will dig into it. i have said in an earlier post, since forrest had indicated that in 2013 he has had multiple searchers contact him and with descriptions close 200 to 500 away from the chest. Even if just a small sample set of posters from this site pinned there searches up to 2013, The treasure location would be easier to find. From a laboratory point of view everything after 2013 can only dilute the sample set. Making the search area or ideal location harder to locate. I think treading new ground or adding theory to something that is 200′ away will distract and mis direct. or have the potential to complicate the location. But of course the right searcher wont be persuaded in another direction other than the right one. (yeah right) lol imo

  30. I believe the clue is not vague. The genius of the poem is that it all seems impossibly vague.
    I think it helps to consider all of the other ways you might try to say the same thing, but would lead you to the wrong place. For example, where water halts, where waters halt, where water stops, where waters stop, where hot water halts, where hot waters stop, where warm water halts, where warm water stops. None of those phrases accurately describe the correct place.

    • Meadowlark. I agree with your last sentence. And that is why most people have never solved WWWH. IMO the clue has nothing at all to do with a cessation of movement, temporary or otherwise, nor an abrupt temperature transition.

      • “IMO the clue has nothing at all to do with a cessation of movement, temporary or otherwise, nor an abrupt temperature transition.”

        Given that definitions of halt include:

        to cause to stop temporarily or permanently; bring or come to an abrupt stop; a suspension of movement or activity,

        If we just had where waters halt then I can see how using this definition it would not work, but if we include warm waters why can we not say that warm waters that enter a cold stream are not permanently stopping from being warm waters? Doesn’t it fit the definition of halt – to cause to stop temporarily or permanently?

        I also believe that it can stand alone but agree with JDA that there has to be something unique about it that distinguishes it from all the other possible WWWH’s. FF said several people found the first clue right? I know there are a lot of searchers and lots send him their solves but would “several” locate the first clue if it was something very different than all of the rest of the possible WWWH’s? Maybe?

        • If I was on Pluto, the North pole on Earth would seem warm. How can you define warm halting when it hits cold when f has never stated at what temp warm is? Warm into cold, cannot be defined in this sense. WWWH has nothing to do with temp. or waters halting. A hot spring is, well, HOT, not warm. So forget the hot springs, geysers, etc… Even a dormant geyser would be where hot waters halt. To an ant, a puddle is a ….. line of thinking. Temperature, one stream into another, hot springs, glaciers, geysers, all have to do with temperature, and won’t work. I’m sure people in Montana right now may believe it is warm, while me in California would think Montana is freezing cold. F put no temperature reference for WWWH, we cannot define it as he thinks it would be in regards to temperature.

          • “If I was on Pluto, the North pole on Earth would seem warm”
            Charlie, you are not on Pluto and Fenn knows that humans will be trying to solve this poem not aliens. As humans we know what warm is. FF said warm is comfortable. Comfortable would be near the temperature of the human body would it not? The NOAA has defined what springs are warm, hot, or boiling https://maps.ngdc.noaa.gov/viewers/hot_springs/

            Warm can be defined as having or giving out heat to a moderate or adequate degree. Of course warm has other definitions not related to temperature and honestly I’d be happy to find that it is one of those. If it is it would seem to make it easier to find a unique WWWH. I’m not so sure though.

          • to me a geyser is not where warm waters halt , when referencing the poem. thats for another post. but the biggest thing about past people finding wwwh and missing clue 2/3 on is interpretation before during and after. There has been searchers within a short stones throw away. Interpretation is what causes people to go in different directions. Not the clues. i can have 5 clues correct but if i mis understand a part of the next clue or mis apply the poem as a clue thats not a clue i would be going the wrong way. the key word to me is not the same to you even if we both have the right key word.
            sorry if my way of thinking and typing is lost in translation. Dal has made multiple trips in the same area with a different interpretation at different points in the poem. tight focus dal and you will get there. i understand now why forrest said stay home cause the first clue.. i got it… but to explain would be to give the treasure away… by the way i have had boots on the ground. the hardest thing for me was tarry scant and beyond.. i didnt know as much as i know now than i did when i did my search.. 1 week after having the book i went on my search. it was 2-3 weeks from learning about t.t.o.t.c to reading the book and going out to montana. today i have redefined my interpretation and feel like an idiot..lol

        • Aaron,
          You’re still assuming those folks knew they solved the clue… only fenn knows they did, by what he was told by the searchers.
          I would dare to say that many ‘might’ have looked in areas that match a thought to the book… greater YS area… NM N of SF… as easy assumptions to where wwwh might be, because of the book. A hunch if you will.

          Charlie… lol C’mon… I agree there’s no way to place a “degree” on an unknown temperature for what warm could be. But, would logic presume that “waters” might refer to all water[s] as a state of liquid, and halt to mean stop being a liquid? Frozen state of water[s]… even if that ‘temporary’ stated was/is over a long period of time.

          So, for example; a place that fit the physical warm / cold [ snow. ice, frozen ] and a place that represents itself as a single place… Never Summer MTs?

          The only real question is, does wwh actually refer to snow or ice or even “worth the cold”? But the idea can give a single location out of all the possible snow cap locations, if correct.
          As well as, a particular glacier. But, does that need to be an existing glacier? [ using the the thought; the end is ever [ always ] drawing nigh [ near ] for any glacier [ over time ]. Which could related to the movement of an older glacier now long gone, but left it’s mark on the landscape [Geography might help here]

          Is it now possible that “no paddle up your creek, just HLAWH refer to an “ice river” ~ commonly referred to has the movement of a glacier…. new land created by and old glacier? And possibly why time might be involved ~ thinking down the road to mean both direction of time?

          Is there a place like this that fits S. of SF… yes… a very long time ago. So it would fit the thought… “nearly all are N.of SF”

          A map is a map, the more detailed a map the better if you have the “right map”… What are those “details” we need to look for -?- and when?

          Just food for thought …

          • Seeker, you said “But, would logic presume that “waters” might refer to all water[s] as a state of liquid, and halt to mean stop being a liquid? ”

            I think logic tells us the following: The poem is written for people, so without further information to the contrary, we may assume that “warm waters” is used in the context of people. Therefore, we may logically conclude that “warm waters” refers to water that is warm to the touch or taste. That is not to say that this is the only possibility. But it is a logical possibility.

          • “You’re still assuming those folks knew they solved the clue… only fenn knows they did, by what he was told by the searchers”

            I’m not sure how I lead you to believe that I assume people know they solved the first clue. On the contrary I believe that nobody knows if they solved the first clue otherwise they would still be out there searching or have found it by now. The first clue is the hardest and if I knew without a doubt that I had the first clue I could not see myself leaving the Rockies until the chest was found.

            “But, would logic presume that “waters” might refer to all water[s] as a state of liquid, and halt to mean stop being a liquid?”

            Do you not think it is possible that given since we have the entire statement WWWH that warm waters halting cannot refer to waters ceasing to be warm because they have entered a cold body of water?

          • but would that glacier need to have been around when forrest was a kid ? tight focus, and the key word. imo if i went into detail it would allow a person to find the poem. trust is not something that goes with competition in finding the treasure. it i was everyperson that found the treasure got 1 million then i could openly say those things. its one treasure for one person or group that is willing to share. Im not in dals group though im on dals website …lol

      • Hi Aaron,

        “… if we include warm waters why can we not say that warm waters that enter a cold stream are not permanently stopping from being warm waters? Doesn’t it fit the definition of halt – to cause to stop temporarily or permanently?”

        Sure it does. I’m just saying that’s not it. Warm and hot springs enter colder bodies of water in thousands of places in the Rockies. There’s nothing unique about any of them, so how would you choose from among them?

        “I also believe that it can stand alone but agree with JDA that there has to be something unique about it that distinguishes it from all the other possible WWWH’s.”

        From my reading, that’s not what JDA believes. He thinks Forrest’s WWWH is just like all the other thousands or tens of thousands, but that the poem’s clues single it out. My opinion is that it doesn’t involve a warm or hot spring at all, and that is the big reason so few people have solved it.

        • Zaph – why is it so implausible that the uniqueness of a wwwh could be tied to some experience FF had, thus making it unique? IMO fishing seems to be viable option, the place is special to FF…just need to figure out why…I can find several that tie into the theme and ‘stand alone’…am I right…probably not, but this comment seems very presumptive: “how can you choose that magical one over all the others? You can’t. It’s arbitrary.”

          • Imo, the hints reveal which is the right one. Don’t think focusing on the thousands of wwwh will help.

        • Oops, when I said “I also believe that it can stand alone but agree with JDA that there has to be something unique about it that distinguishes it from all the other possible WWWH’s.” I meant does not have to be something unique.

          you said “Sure it does. I’m just saying that’s not it. Warm and hot springs enter colder bodies of water in thousands of places in the Rockies. There’s nothing unique about any of them, so how would you choose from among them?”

          I believe it is possible that there is a message stanza 1 can help you determine the correct one, if in fact WWWH does refer to warm water enter cold.

    • that reminds me of a saying that stuck with me when i was a young boy.
      How far is too far, unless you go to far.
      i learned that every time i was punished for going to far

  31. So many theories and generic alignments that can be applied to 100’s of places. We are supposed to be able to proceed w confidence.

    Raise your hand if you have a WWWH solve that can only be aligned to a single place please.

    I have 3. Logical fits that can only be applied to one spot in the search area.

      • I have what I consider a very good WWWH as well as fitting in to other stanzas of the poem I have 9 clues with interpretations that make sense in a Fenny kind of way. I can’t wait to head out to see if BOTG pans out.

          • I’m surprised that this discussion topic didn’t get more action. Should I take that as a bad sign or that everyone is thinking it and want to keep it secret?
            Zaphod – I’d be happy to take it offline, if you and I are the only ones wanting to discuss.
            Care to share what state you’re focused on?
            As I mentioned, I have 3 WWWH possible matches that align to single places in the search area. 2 in Wy, 1 in CO. Of those, only one passes my “eye test” – essentially does it meet the “pine trees and animals” description Forrest gave and would I want it to be my final resting place.
            I’d also value your opinion and discussion regarding the “within 500/200ft” factor. I take that to mean that if you’re physically at clue#2, you’re within 500ft of the chest. And that most everyone’s solution hold way too much area.

          • Hi Mark,

            “I’m surprised that this discussion topic didn’t get more action. …
            Zaphod – I’d be happy to take it offline, if you and I are the only ones wanting to discuss.”

            I think many searchers have very specific WWWH’s that they like and that they believe are unique (to their solution).

            “Care to share what state you’re focused on?”

            Montana. And only Montana.

            “As I mentioned, I have 3 WWWH possible matches that align to single places in the search area. 2 in Wy, 1 in CO.”

            An example showing how it is not hard to come up with more than one WWWH that “fits.” But only one can be Fenn’s.

            “I’d also value your opinion and discussion regarding the “within 500/200ft” factor. I take that to mean that if you’re physically at clue#2, you’re within 500ft of the chest. And that most everyone’s solution hold way too much area.”

            My interpretation for some time has been that it is not difficult to come within 500 feet of the chest’s location. In fact it may be completely unavoidable if you’re passing through the general area. The part that’s interesting is the ~distinction~ between 500 feet and 200 feet.

  32. this is part of what I think about some parts of the poem – starting from the east where wwh is – east is now out of play – from there you would be going west to heavy loads where you come to a stop and cant go west any further so west is now out of play – from there you go south to home of brown so south is now out of play so to put in below hob there is only one direction for you to go and that is———–imo

      • IMaybe I missed it, but the comments as to FF’s 200/500 ft away remark almost all predicated on an assumption that he’s speaking about horizontal distance. I haven’t read anything to the contrary. And maybe he is talking horizontally, but I find it tough to reconcile that 200/500 ft remark with the idea that it’s not near any man-made anything. 66 yards is really really close- just outside field goal range in fact, so perhaps the statement is actually a vertical one. You’re welcome.

        • Yes, vertical distance has been invoked before, both in the context of searchers’ proximity (as you have it here), and also in reference to a distance that could be “not far but too far to walk.”


        • Bohustlaner;

          The quote that you reference is: “If you ain’t the lead dog, the scenery never changes. When I am in the mountains or in the desert, the last place I want to be is on a trail. Ain’t no adventure in that for me. There isn’t a human trail in very close proximaty (sic) to where I hid the treasure”. f

          So the question is: What is VERY close proxamity (sic)? near,, I put at 100′ or more.
          Close I put at 50′ – 100′ and Very close I put at 25′ or less. Others may have a different measure – but for me Indulgence could be 200′ or less from a man-made feature and still meet my criteria. For me, the question is, can where Indulgence is secreted be SEEN from that man-made feature that is 200’/500′ away?

          If the answer is YES – I would find another spot. If NO – go for it, but make sure YOU are not seen going there. – Or “Look like you SHOULD be there. – JDA

          • I would agree that when one hears the word “trail”, what comes to mind is narrow path worn plantless by thousands of feet, but I’ve spent almost five decades in the bush, and have to say that more often than not, that description only accounts for about half the actual trails humans use in the desert or mountains. Just as typical are out-of-use roads built for some long-abandoned industry such as logging or mining. The ruts, although weed-filled, are clearly visible, and these have now become integrated into trail systems. I’ve also hiked many a “rail trail”, in which the track line of an extinct railline has been converted into a pathway. Did one of these which was 40 miles long.
            So, I view FF’s statement in a broader context: that at his final spot, he doesn’t want to look anywhere and be reminded of humanity. That doesn’t mean he didn’t use a very modern method to get 90% of the way, but for that special spot, he’s roughing it.

          • JDA,
            I would say your comments on “close and very close proximity” are with the range I feel the distance is. Even though I once said very close proximity is with in spitting distance. I also like your distance from a “man made” object too.

            And yes Bohustlaner, those distances can a vertical drop or rise.

          • Bur;

            I would say that if you were within 200′, that would be a good sign – but that’s just me – JDA

          • JDA ~ ‘Close I put at 50′ – 100′ and Very close I put at 25′ or less. Others may have a different measure – but for me Indulgence could be 200′ or less from a man-made feature and still meet my criteria.’

            To be honest and blunt, ‘your criteria doesn’t matter’… that’s not meant to be rude, but a logical thought. fenn was going to his resting place, have his body decay into the soil and bones bleached in the sun, right?

            I almost want to say “seen” doesn’t matter about distance… I think you get the scent of my “drift”
            But I highly doubt fenn’s location is going to be near anything man made that would attract, workers for repairs, maintenance, tourist, or even the occasional hiker or passerby or even in an area of wandering pets.

            We know fenn drove to the area… however, many many areas within the search parameter can be driven to without a road near by. I dare say there wasn’t [ 1/2 mile or what ever it was ] a road leading into the woods when the Fenn family hid their seasonal belongings for next years trip to YSP…

            Yet, that doesn’t rule out ‘all’ man made features… such as geo markers etc or a bridge over troubled waters. But even those types of man made/placed, features/objects have folks out looking/using, almost daily for recreational and/or adventure.
            Some may like the excuse that he ruined the story, so he no longer intends to play out the original plan… well, did that change the location of the original thought of going there to die?

            200′ is less than a stone throw away… home plate to second base on a baseball field is 127’… home plate to the pitcher’s mound is 60’… a Ranch style home is approx 60′ long… Some building lot’s sizes are 100’x100’…. just to put it in some perspective, for a body to be nearby.

    • The term is human trail, not man made trail. To me, there is a difference. A road is a man made trail and a bike path is a man made trail, but they are not human trails. A road is a vehicle trail and a bike path is a bike trail. To me, neither are human trails. I think it is F is very careful with his answers, but that’s just me.

    • How about made /designed for human use?

      Example; many paths throughout many parks and other areas are nothing more than groomed dirt paths or path beaten down by constant deliberate human use as a path/trail…

      Is the CD trail really a trail, or do we just call it a trail?
      Did we design the CD… is it only meant for human travel… even if we build a road on sections of it?
      Kelly, the one thing to remember, that the comment was meant for the location of the “chest” [hide] and where fenn once desired his body to lay. I personally have to take that idea into account as to what ‘not very close proximity to a human trail’ means.

    • Typically, I would say yes. A trail, a trace, a road, a path, freeway, a walk- if it was built by humans (not necessarily for humans) – it would all fall under the definition. But I agree, that with FF, you’ve got to assume his words need to be parsed for all their potential meanings. He could be saying this exactly how it sounds or expanding the definition.

    • Hi JBL – although i can’t argue with the logic in your specific interp, my take on a “human trial” includes any/all trails created by humans imho

      as a side note, the fact that he mentioned “human” makes me wonder whether the TC is located in close proximity to an animal trail, given that these are the easiest paths to follow when venturing off-track (?)

      • Hi CH: or how ’bout a marriage of those two: e.g. a horse trail? It’s not like horses would be on such a trail without human riders, so does that make the horse trail an animal trail or a human trail?

      • jeez Zaps, ya just had to be awkward didn’t ya, as i was leaning more toward “wild” animal trails than domestic

        but to answer your horse/human question accurately..
        i would have to say a Centaur trail 😛

      • Hi CH, you may very well be right, but in making that assumption, you may be eliminating a trail (road or bike path for example) that should not be eliminated. So, in order to identify what Forrest has actually said, only trails made specifically for humans (marked hiking trails) can safely be eliminated. Again, IMO.
        Personally,I hesitate to eliminate roads because of the phrase – I’ve done it tired, which could mean he did it in a car that has tires. Remember the comment by Forrest – If you have a searching partner, best to have them wait in the car. Maybe it will be the person in the car that will see the blaze.

        • A bicycle trail, by definition, is a trail made for use by bicycles, right? Outside the circus, I do not know of too many other animals who would be riding a bicycle anywhere, so I am going to go with a bicycle trail being man-made. Same with a horse trail since such are designed for a horse and rider.


  33. But if he drove down a road in a sedan, parked, walked a mile into the woods, and hid the treasure, it could be interpreted that it isn’t close to a human trail

  34. In our solve a mountain bike trail is the path, matches Forrest riding his bike 20 miles to bathe IMO . We feel a mtn bike trail is not a human trail but a bike trail…. we hope

  35. It doesn’t really matter what kind of trail when f defines “close proximity” as 2 1/4″. (scrapbook 113). Very close proximity would be closer than that. So, any trail that you take, you can expect to have to go at least 2 1/4″ into the wood. There is no what we believe the definitions of the words or what our own take is on a distance or a trail, f stated that close proximity is 2 1/4″. As ridiculous as it may seem to even state the comment if this is the case, this is the case…

    • Hi Charlie — and amusingly enough, 2 1/4″ (arc seconds of latitude or longitude) is about 228 feet on the earth’s surface.

      • very good Zap, lol, nothing passed you…But then again, I could have just said, two and one quarter inches. Still, a good catch of my error. How far is that if we are using “right straight”?
        That reminds me, here’s a bone for all if so looking. Right straight is a right triangle, measured on the Earth, but he’s saying to use a straight triangle. Given that he only has to be right 85% of the time, (which is odd to say), we could use the 85 in a right straight triangle. Angle c would be 90 degrees, angle b would be 85 degrees, and angle a would be 5 degrees. Indiana Jones, map room, Skippy standing, (Skippy has an instruction, you “skip” p, leaves you with “Y”). “Y” is side A. Side B and C will be close together with the angle of a being 5 degrees( the sun’s elevation in the sky).
        How far is side B, (the shadow of “Y”)
        Who wouldn’t guess 80′? I know, you would still need info, and the poem does supply that “Y” is 7′. “Y” is placed on your “X on a map”, or your coordinates that you get from the poem. ( I know, I’ve already lost everyone who doesn’t see numbers), but for the one’s that do, the poem doesn’t give you the coordinates of the chest, it gives you coordinates to a “bell”. Of your path, that would be to clue number 8. The key is the shadow, (that’s not some magical ‘key” word), and the 9th clue is a time and some extra info that takes you to the chest. IMO…
        Point being, right straight is a triangle, and Skippy is standing. Wy is it….. W is west…

      • I hope I do not have to know about arc seconds of latitudes to solve this poem…..
        I will be playing this game with a really poor handicap…

    • Zap and.charlie – So within 228 feet = close proximity, Forrest could SEE?:

      “In the Saharan desert of Libya I discovered thousands of war relics left over from the tank battles of WW-II: burned out tanks and shell casings were everywhere. And in close proximity were stone projectiles and crudely made hand axes that could have been 30,000 years old. I was looking at conflicts piled on top of conflicts. Who can imagine how many…”

      Is that what he means by that “close proximity” term in this case????

      • NP, kind of puts everything in play….I’m a believer of the chest being hidden under a seek-no-further tree, ala Eric Sloane. Remember, it’s “very close proximity”.:)

          • Lisa, Golden Ratio,…yes. Sorry, that’s one thing I have to keep to myself. Good ‘ol 1.6…

          • Lisa,
            I’ve been skimming over some of your postings and seeing many of the thoughts you have. Take this as no offense… have you aligned these thoughts into a full theory yet?

            For example; Your post at 7:48pm; fenn’s metals and the golden ratio. Have you match anything to the poem that might relate to it?

            One thought I have is that the poem tells us what we need to know -[ tell us what research to look up, if we don’t know it ]

            “But tarry scant… with marvel gaze” Is an example of how the poem might be telling us what we may need to understand -[research]
            “Tarry Point”.. and/or possibly “9 point circle” equations that will finalize the using of the 9 clues.

            Some will say; C’mon Seeker how would a redneck from TX know this Geometry? He doesn’t need to know… he just might need to understand that “all the information…” is in the poem.
            So, could fenn have told us how to solve the clues references??

            LOL… just some of my thoughts about your thoughts.

          • Seeker, et al

            Hmm – if I understand correctly … one doesn’t need specialized knowledge but maybe needs to recognize / first learn it in the poem? Interesting and confounding to me.

            Also from Lisa’s reference to FF’s “plane” going down I’ve managed to confound myself more asking myself did FF say “plain English” or “plane English”? IMO the latter includes both specialized and non-specialized knowledge.

            I confound myself so much it’s why I don’t have the first clue any more.

            Chase well…Stay safe…

          • KidUtah,
            fenn stated, “GE and/or a good map”
            Why the and/or?
            Seems to me Goggle Earth is enough, right? But both tools do one thing… shows an aerial view of the land below. As well as “marry the clues to a place on a map”
            imo, so does the math equation … an aerial view [ overlay if you will ]… calculate “precisely” – [exact] location of a 10″ pieces of land.

            In theory, of course…

          • Seeker
            Kinda disagree I think? Both are tools with same / similar purpose, but also different and maybe used for different purposes. I have many tools in my chest. Sometimes I’ve used a crescent wrench or the butt-end of a screwdriver as a hammer. I don’t advise that, but at the time it served the purpose. Now, if I told my wife or grandson to fetch me a good screwdriver, they could bring me a slotted, Philips, star or different kinds. It’s more likely – like us here – they’d ask what kind of screwdriver or they’d a few or my whole tool bucket. Decades ago, my wife might even have asked I meant the drink!

            I agree the generally intended purpose of both “GE and/or a good map” is to locate X. IMO, GE is a specific tool whereas a good map is a very ambiguous description of a general kind of tool. Does it matter which one is used? Elephino. With all the technological advances today, I still prefer some kind of map in hand, but nowadays I always have my mobile phone and/or GPS locator, as well. In some BOTG places, I’ve also carried a satellite phone and/or transponder. Thus far, none of them have helped me pinpoint Indulgence’s location. As I’ve said before, I don’t have the first clue any more.

            What makes a map good or bad? Age? Specific info / detail on it – text, lines, numbers, other? For me, a good map is one with whatever attributes that serves the purpose whenever I am wherever.

            I know I don’t always understand what you post and at times I’ve been skeptical or disagreed. And I know you get your fair share of criticism here at hoD, but doggone it, more often than not you make me think and imagine – just maybe too much and not in tight focus! Thanks for helping me now confound myself more!

            Gotta go…just heard the wife wake-up and now need another cup of coffee. We can chat later….

            Chase well…Stay safe…

          • Wow, Kid Utah by the picture of you, I thought you were just a topo map, compass, time, distance and angle kinda guy… like me. I hate GPS technology and am only lost around population.
            The woods and savvy have never gotten me lost.
            IMO Forrest suggests a GPS for the non savvy
            Just sayin
            Good day

          • kidutah – Half the trees in London, England are plane trees, FYI. And if EC Waters can talk about The Odyssey, I can talk about Helen of Troy, as she potentially relates to The Chase. Didn’t Forrest carve some Aspens on his property? And we have formed a sort of Thrill-seekers cult, have we not?


          • Lisa,
            Thanks kinda confound it! On another post you referenced the geometric “plane English”. I, too, thought of that just as I posted my last comment. I think my only hope is I confound myself enough to have 9 Eureka! moments and find it.

            Yikes! A love triangle and “…twelve virgins smother the ground around a sacred plane tree…” carving Helen’s name into its bark! Forrest?!? My wife and I have been “thrill-seekers” of sorts individually and together ever since we met over 45 years ago. She thinks all this FF, TTOTC and poem stuff is “quite amusing” and keeps me busy with innocent fun and out of her hair and trouble. If I mention you as Helen of Troy and the above quote she just might question what kind of ”cult”! So let’s just keep it between us two. You know, two can keep a secret where…oh never mind.
            Thanks again.
            Chase well…Stay safe…

          • Triangulation implies exactness; however, FF said the correct solve takes you to within a few steps. Considering he noted “within a few steps” that sounds like you might need BOTG also to see the area. If WWWH needs triangulation, that’s different than my theory.

            The Golden Ratio has nothing to do with the correct solve. IMO

            Trigonometry has nothing to do with the correct solve. IMO

            Geometry has nothing to do with the correct solve. IMO (of course if you want to go off on a “Tangent”, good luck and wish you the best in your search)

            Most important things to solve the poem (WWWH and other parts):

            1. Logic (correctly balanced w/ Imagination)
            2. Imagination (correctly balanced w/ logic)
            3. Patience
            4. Persistence
            5. BOTG and Failure
            6. Adjustment after Failure
            7. Coffee – lots of coffee

            I believe the above is true – the opinion of others may be different.

          • Covert One
            No disagreement here – I believe you believe the above is true. I’ve followed number 7 for …I’ll just say more decades than I’ll admit. Some have told me too much. I’ll just close by saying “much, but not too much”. If it wasn’t for my wife and coffee, I don’t believe I’d gotten this far…or is it this close?
            Chase well…Stay safe…

          • Seeker – A previous post of mine:


            On Forrest’s.medals, The Purple Heart, the Silver Star and the Vietnamese Gallantry award,…they are all blazes to my hidey spot.

            On the border of the Gallatin National Forest, in a protected triangle that happens to look like a rising Rainbow trout from the air, accessed by the Red Black Violet #207 trail (purple), with a brave and in the wood uphill battle and ofg-trail 500 ft. ascent to my hidey spot, which is quickly down from a star blaze on the hillside above.

          • Covert one,
            It’s easy to dismiss the possibilities. But have you ever considered them?

            The method you explained ~’Most important things to solve the poem’~ is really only one method… a process of elimination.
            Try it and if that doesn’t work… try it slightly different again and again until all avenues of failure are exhausted, and throw another dart at another location, and start the same process over again.

            I guess someone would need a lot of patience and persistence, to rinse and repeat. [5. BOTG and Failure- 6. Adjustment after Failure].

            fenn~ “It’s not a matter of trying. It’s a matter of thinking… Sure I mean, people figured the first couple clues and unfortunately walked past the treasure chest”

          • Seeker – I haven’t mentioned a “method” at all – my list is only of the most important “things” in my opinion. I don’t share my method(s).

            Good luck in your search!

          • Seeker – Now I am thinking about Alan Seeger’s I have a Rendezvous with Death poem, and those disputed boundaries:

            And I noted that the way MY trout is positioned,…with the curve of the colors of the Rainbow,…along its back,…has significance to where I believe the pot o’ gold to be,…at “the end of Forrest’s rainbow”. And I laughed when I realized that the trout’s fin is located along Forest Creek. Then,…that would be a “Forrest fin”,…wouldn’t it? Didn’t that reporter last Monday night,…spell his name, “Forrest Finn”? And then there is that disputed “barricade” from that Seeger poem I posted. Hmmm,…if Forrest secreted the Bronze Chest on one side,…of what is probably is a 12 ft. wide creek,…those West Yellowstone Rangers might nab it,…making that a:

            U.S.F.S. Forest Fin

            But if the Bronze Chest is below the water line,…hidden in Forrest’s ‘secret weir’,…in Forest Creek,…then that is the jurisdiction of Montana Fish & Game (= the “Treasure State”), I believe,…and would be in the public domain,…and so would be a:

            Forest (Creek) Fin

            But if the Bronze Chest is hidden inside the boundaries of that Rainbow trout outline,…formed along the back of that trout by public waterways (that make kind of a moat for Forrest’s potential ef-fort),…then that would make that dorsal part of the anatomy of that trout a:

            Forrest fin

            Some name translations I found:

            Forrest – a person who works in a forest.
            Burk – Lives in a fortress.
            Fenn – A marshy area bordering the edge of a forest.

            Check. Check. And Check.

          • Covert one,
            We can go around and around all day what method means, But I read; important to a ‘solve’.

            Ok lets skip method and go to reasoning… “all the information to find the chest in is the poem”
            Lets refresh MDavis question on specialized knowledge ;
            Q~ “Is any specialized knowledge required to find the treasure? For instance, something learned during your time in the military, or from a lifetime of fly fishing? Or do you really expect any ordinary average person without your background to be able to correctly interpret the clues in the poem? ~mdavis19″
            A~”No specialized knowledge is required mdavis19, and I have no expectations. My Thrill of the Chase book is enough to lead an average person to the treasure.f”

            Would it stand to reason that ‘no specialized knowledge, and no expectation’ Might refer to the poem’s information and the book to help?
            Another words [ interpreting ] ~ the poem has the information [ specialized knowledge ] but there is no expectation fenn has, that the readers will understand this… But the book is enough to lead one to this conclusion.
            Would then [ if this thought process is correct ] fenn’s time in flight school and flying give enough to a reader of the poem… the idea… Tarry Scant could refer to Tarry Point?

            Does fenn think we need to know this information beforehand in our own lives, OR might fenn be indicating things from his life [memoirs] that “would actually help” but have no assumptions we will understand this…

            Difficult, but not impossible, and still have the thought of; “what took me so long”-?- to reason it all out?
            The idea of; certainty beforehand of the location and direct path vs. stomping and eliminating, due to physical multiple botg failures?

        • Seeker -. The reason I think Forrest things that the average person could solve his Poem:

          “Imagination is more important than knowledge..”

          That is the word that is key to all the aspects of my solve. You have given your opinion how about the content of my posts, so this word is my answer to what I see in yours:

          Showing results for semantics meaning
          Search instead for symantics meaning
          the branch of linguistics and logic concerned with meaning. There are a number of branches and subbranches of semantics, including formal semantics, which studies the logical aspects of meaning, such as sense, reference, implication, and logical form, lexical semantics, which studies word meanings and word relations, and conceptual semantics, which studies the cognitive structure of meaning.
          the meaning of a word, phrase, sentence, or text.
          plural noun: semantics
          “such quibbling over semantics may seem petty stuff”

          • Lisa,
            First thing you need to understand with my opinions… I’m a multiple meanings and word usage guy in the attempt to solve the poem. Which means there are variations of not only different meanings and usages, but more than one of each can be utilized… Example the word cold has many many usages, some of which are;
            medical, emotional, temperature, touch[sensation], attitude, or even viewing something that will give on an impression dark or darkness etc.
            Brave also many usages, such as; Native American, fearless, or simple to take on a challenge – with no meaning of fear involved… example; to take on the [challenge] solve of this poem.
            One version can be read as; you’re effort will be worth the could [ touch of the chest] If you are brave [ to take on the challenge ]…
            Another version; Your effort, not to freeze to death, and you need to be brave and face that challenge.

            Not unlike some who would like the line Tarry scant with marvel gaze to mean; ~ Don’t linger long, you’re doing something wrong, don’t stand there and stare, get the heck out of there.
            Or maybe my thought… an actual “possible” interpretation that could be applied to actually finding the chest, and very subtlety told to use by fenn’s memoirs [ flying and navigating, and a thumb that block Philly from an elevation, line of thinking ]

            “The person that finds it, is going to be a person who thinks and plans and has an analytical mind and uses logic, not someone who has a hunch.” [ dang, there’s that “plan” word again! ]

            If you only use “imagination” as the important factor or most important fact in the solve… then it’s an anything goes, to each individual’s imagination, of what they personally see on a marble bathroom wall…
            That concept seem the same when each readers reads the book and poem.

            I’m not saying right or wrong… but the concept that imagination out rides logical analytical thinking has lead to a lot of kitchen sinks solves…
            Metals/rewards involvement, floating hats, Minerva, ford, old biddies, songs, celebrities, other poet’s poems, other author’s books, L&C, color of tea, and on and on and on…

            While some of that ‘might’ “help”… my question would be… How did the poem align it all up?
            Not on a map or location… but how did the poem show you? Because in my mind [ yep, that is an opinion ] the poem was designed to have the information to eliminate all the unnecessary pieces, we all hope are actual needed pieces.

            Don’t get me wrong, I follow what you’re saying… and how your thoughts jump from here to there, might be a little hard to understand at time… All I’m saying is, to simply pick a word and hope its the correct method or even the correct meaning, and nothing else, is the first step to breaking a leg in the rabbit hole.

            Keep thinking, my suggestion is, just don’t let your thoughts lead you astray with only a single thought.

          • Seeker – Me thinks you are the Mad Hatter here in Wonderland:

            “If I had a world of my own, everything would be nonsense. Nothing would be what it is, because everything would be what it isn’t. And contrary wise, what is, it wouldn’t be. And what it wouldn’t be, it would. You see?”
            Lewis Carroll, Alice’s Adventures in Wonderland & Through the Looking-Glass

            p.s. I get you. That was a truly excellent post reply. I was just having fun with you. Cheshire Cat smile.

          • Kidutah and Covert One – Plane English, Geometry, Trigonometry, a Good Map…

            Just between us Thrill-seekers, who like Helen of Troy, whose face launched a thousand ships, might find ourselves pursued on The Chase in inclement weather, and therefore have to use VFR to land at West Yellowstone Airport:


            Eric Sloane aka Everard – How do you like the big E drawing nigh over my hidey spot from up here? Like E-is-for-Ever drawing nigh? That Is the End letter of the words that span the dangerously looming peaks of the Madison Range.

          • Hi Lisa,
            I could be mistaken, but isn’t VFR “visual flight rules” ?
            I think you need IFR in inclement weather.
            Also, why not use the phonetic E as in Echo?

          • Seeker – You wrote:

            “…and very subtlety told to use by fenn’s memoirs [ flying and navigating, and a thumb that block Philly from an elevation, line of thinking”

            FYI that there is a clearly visible shape of a right-hand thumb, pointing left, to my Double Omega Island blaze in the meadow below my hidey spot. That thumb in the landscape is clearly visible in Google Earth satellite view or from a Piper Malibu plane flying over the area. Don’t artists use their extended thumbs for perspective?

            And Phi and Pi are both It Numbers. And the Imagination required to see figures in the stone floor of one:s shower is irrational also. But the Poem was written by an Architect..

          • Lisa – one should watch for towers and mountains when traveling in a winged-sedan.

            When traveling in a non-winged-sedan, one should watch for animals and other searchers who are looking for their spot.

            The winning itinerary doesn’t require flight or a sectional map. IMO

            Geometry, Trigonometry, the Golden Ratio, and Triangulation are not required either. IMO (although let’s not consider semantics here with any of these)

            I’ll yield one secret to you (just between us) and, since you post links, it is located and clearly shown here:


            I believe it’s essential to solving the chase!

            Good luck in the search…post some more web links – they’re great!

          • eaglesabound – My hillside blaze, which looks like an.Egyptian Cartouche with hieroglyphs, is clearly visible from Google Earth satellite view as well as from a Piper Malibu plane. Here is what it signifies to me:


            Airforce Airman Forrest Fenn for-Ever

            The End is for-Everard, drawing nigh, located on the far left.of the Cartouche.

            And in a book I found that had foldouts of Eric’s two murals from the Air and Space Museum, I swore I could see a self-portrait of his face painted into the into the clouds:


            The end is Ever drawing nigh…

          • That’s very interesting Lisa.
            Sounds as if you have all the clues figured out.
            Did you search your area yet?

          • Lisa,
            May I ask what discipline you are in? You have an amazing universe of knowledge. I’m a pilot of old and appreciate your using a sectional map. Have you also check out the IFR intersections around your area?
            Best of luck.

          • Thanks Lisa.
            I have done extensive research on ES, so have read all of these articles and his books as well. I too believe he fits into the solve just not in the same way as you.

          • Bob Miller – No specific discipline.I just enjoy learning while here on The Chase. Great to know you are a pilot, though. I have done no research in the IFR map intersection areas. But I noted that pdenver mentioned something about intersections that Forrest said at the November 2nd book signing. Maybe that was a hint to your info?

          • Lisa,
            I did a search a couple of years ago of the IFR intersections and there are several that piqued my interest. I gave up on that because I feel that entails some special knowledge that FF said was not required. But your area of interest is highly possible.

    • Did someone just walk off with the treasure? I fEEL certain that Lisa is talking about Fenns traveLOGue., I think Fenn called it walking in circles or flying a plane there. Lol

      a round plane ✈️ figure whose boundary (the circumference) consists of points equidistant from a fixed point (the center).

      Lisa you should tell them MORE about the tall pine he intended to die under for reasons outside his control.

      You’ll have to figure this one out.

      noun: neck; plural noun: necks
      the part of a person’s or animal’s body connecting the head to the rest of the body.
      “she is wearing a silk scarf around her neck”
      synonyms: nape, scruff; More
      “the cop grabbed Malloy by the neck”
      the part of a shirt, dress, or other garment that is around or close to the neck.
      “her dress had three buttons at the neck undone”
      meat from an animal’s neck.
      “neck of lamb made an excellent stew”
      a person’s neck regarded as bearing a burden of responsibility or guilt for something.
      “he’ll be stuck with a loan around his neck”
      a narrow part of something, resembling a neck in shape or position.
      the part of a bottle or other container near the mouth.
      a narrow piece of terrain or sea, such as an isthmus, channel, or pass.
      a narrow part near one end of an organ such as the uterus.
      the part of a violin, guitar, or other similar instrument that bears the fingerboard.
      another term for necking.
      a column of solidified lava or igneous rock formed in a volcanic vent, especially when exposed by erosion.
      noun: volcanic neck; plural noun: volcanic necks
      a narrow supporting part in a plant, especially the terminal part of the fruiting body in a fern, bryophyte, or fungus.
      the length of a horse’s head and neck as a measure of its lead in a race.
      “the colt won the 122nd running of the Midsummer Derby by a neck”

      Fait Accompli

      • Oil man – Dovetailing on Forrest’s potential Spring Rendezvous with Death, and his use of, “pillowed down and scented in” and Peggy waiting there for him, which.he wrote about in his Flywater story, this reference sticks out:

        another term for necking

        But my.tall, well-seasoned.Lodgepole pine is laying on a perfect diagonal on the ground across my hidey spot. That spot being a square clearing that is perfect ly visible from.Google Earth or Forrest’s Piper Malibu circling the West.Yellowstonr.runway to land.

        • You might investigate Lisa that lodgpole pine stuff ala insp. Clueseau style or get Dals help on that. He runs that hole Yellowstone empire dealio…
          About this plane stuff though do we all have a ticket? All aboard! Have we stowed our luggage Lugnutz. We all know that wasn’t Dorothy’s idea lol Lisa yes if I look in the mirror I do sea a man that is true!

          The winds of Time are changing if you know what I mean.

          A plane mirror is a mirror with a flat (planar) reflective surface. For light rays striking a plane mirror, the angle of reflection equals the angle of incidence. The angle of incidence is the angle between the incident ray and the surface normal (an imaginary line perpendicular to the surface).

          Fait Accompli

          • OR hey Lisa how about this one.

            scant (plural scants) (masonry) A block of stone sawn on two sides down to the bed level.

            Fenn said he wouldn’t die in a hospital bed.

            No paddle up your dry river bed.

          • Oil man

            And a Tarry scant would be a black (like tar) stone that is flat on two sides – like a headstone. JDA

          • **** “. . . a Tarry scant would be a black (like tar) stone that is flat on two sides . . .” ****

            I’m just curious about attempts to re-pack the poem with the most obscure possible definitions of nearly every word.

            In this particular case, does it not matter that replacing a verb-adverb with an adjective-noun no longer yields a sensible phrase?

            ” . . . look quickly down, your quest to cease, but FLAT BLACK STONE with marvel gaze, just take the chest and go . . .” etc

            Or is it more like this method of extracting (or maybe imposing) meaning has the poem itself reading with normal definitions, but with these obscure meanings embedded like subliminal messages in a movie (“hungry popcorn!”) or record (“I buried Paul”)?

            So that these obscure images don’t thread into the grammatical structure of the poem, but rather drop out of that structure to populate the structure of the landscape map instead?

            Is that kinda how you see those definitions working?

            Or is it even less formal, and more like Lisa’s free association readings?

            [who can’t remember anymore how we got here from WWWH]

      • Hi JDA – Each time Forrest reads the poem he pounces tarry as the wait around definition and not the substance tar. Is your solution dependant upon tarry being a black tar like substance? My thoughts are that the poem tells us not to linger once we find the chest. Load it up, take a look at the view and return to the sedan. As Forrest stated before we won’t be able to carry it all home in one trip and I think this is critical to the correct solution.

        • Hear me all
          I am listening
          I am not familiar with a lot of Mr. Forrest’s quotes.
          Could you help me out?
          What were his exact words on us taking 2 trips to get it home?
          Thanks CC

          • Fundamental Guidelines at the top of the page;
            “If you can’t make two trips from your car to your solve in several hours, then don’t go.”

        • HMA ~” My thoughts are that the poem tells us not to linger once we find the chest.”
          Does Quickly to you mean… get the heck out of there?
          Can you explain why, ‘not to linger’ when tarry actually means to linger… even with scant used as a short amount [ of time, maybe ].

          Are we doing something wrong, for this need not to hang around? Worried about someone robbing use? fenn didn’t seem to be worried about it, making two trips in an time span of an afternoon… carrying the chest and the contents both concealed and in the open.

          It puzzles me why some think there’s such a need to get out of dodge… because the sheriff and the posse might not be far behind, line of thinking.

          • “Are we doing something wrong…”
            Searcher, if we ever get this far, we are probably doing something right!

          • Oops Sorry, this comment was for Seeker!
            And, also thanks for showing me where to find the info

          • Hi Seeker – I didn’t mean you have to run for your life once you find the chest, however if I’m correct about the spot you won’t want to linger long due to others that may arrive and be close by.
            And I see tarry scant as telling us not linger long at that spot. Remember when f said that a lot of people had been within 500′ at The Lure screening this year? The spot isn’t as remote as some want to think. And the spot doesn’t stand out unless you solve the poem. These are my opinions at this time and are based on the poem and research materials that the teacher assigned for this project.

          • HMA;

            Have you looked up the meaning of “but”?

            conjunction: but

            used to introduce something contrasting with what has already been mentioned.
            synonyms: yet, nevertheless, nonetheless, even so, however, still, notwithstanding, despite that, in spite of that, for all that, all the same, just the same; More
            though, although
            “he stumbled but didn’t fall”
            nevertheless; however.
            “he stumbled but didn’t fall”
            on the contrary; in contrast.
            “I am clean but you are dirty”
            synonyms: whereas, conversely, but then, then again, on the other hand, by/in contrast, on the contrary
            “this one’s expensive, but this one isn’t”
            used to indicate the impossibility of anything other than what is being stated.

            By definition, this line COULD be saying the opposite of what most think. If “but” is the opposite – Is Forrest saying – “Do the opposite of Tarry SCANT – meaning – Take a LONG time to take in the marvelous view? Think about it – Why the “BUT”? Just askin’ JDA

          • HMA,
            What about his body? did ya miss the part about the teacher want to take the million plus with him… how would it not be found with a body laying on top of it… and many people are around because the spot in not remote…

          • Seeker. My view is that Forrest is indeed saying to not linger at the treasure site……just take the chest and go. Why would he be telling us that? It’s not dangerous, he has said. The only reason I can think of for him to tell us not to linger is that the treasure is in a location where the ownership could be disputed if the finder was discovered. That’s my conclusion, and no doubt many will not agree. I expect to find instructions in the chest that will suggest to the finder how to proceed in establishing ownership of the treasure.

          • Hi Seeker – Didn’t you find it a little odd that Forrest never mentioned taking it with him in TTOTC? The comments about being with the chest were made after the book was released. It adds some mystery doesn’t it?

            The spot where I believe the chest is hidden could conceal a person from others even 40′ away. Reality says that vultures or turkey buzzards would find the body and pick it apart soon after. It’s just the way nature works.

            IMO, I don’t think Forrest would have passed away in the mountains and left his family without closure. If you want to put significance on the AFT comments about him being with his chest that’s okay. I see the AFT comments as hints about the spot he hid the treasure.

          • HMA,
            While I repeat many times; use the information we have from the start… it’s fool hardy to dismiss what could help in the ATF… IF we keep the thoughts to a reasonable idea.
            Preston recalled early on a discussion with fenn about the challenge. Preston used the term intern.
            fenn asked another to write the bio, and the comment was, about an act of grave robbing.
            fenn tells us he planned to die there… which seems to be the whole reason for the challenge, “to take it with him”
            Other comments, such as; if he ever got ill again, he throw himself on the chest.

            These second hand pieces of information and fenn’s ATF comments help with certain ‘notions’ that would be “unreasonable” to a solve… such as… the chest is in water because the poem is about water, idea… which is now debunked.
            Not in a graveyard… even though fenn called them useless clue later… the idea of a graveyard would force a “buried” treasure idea for a searcher.

            IMO, while these comments only help a searcher to ‘reason out’ a possible solve, don’t actually help with a solve… So knowing fenn was going to actually die at the location doesn’t really help with a “solution” perse… but helps a reader of the poem to think more about what was said…”to take it with him”

            As to TomB comment… the idea of ownership and private property and legal matters and all the other problems searcher want to force into the challenge; were told to us by way of an interview… what if there are no legal questions.

            Why do we bother asking questions and beg for more, read ever SB and hear ever interview, wonder if fenn is gong to throw his pack more bones, if we just dismiss the context of seven years of information; in the hopes that “40′ ” away from anyone passing by would be a good place to hide a chest full of gold and yes, a body.
            That is an egotesticle force fit to one’s solve, to be where they hope the chest is… without a logical or reasonable thought, to what we do know of now.
            Other wise many would still be looking in Canada, Nevada, Utah, Idaho, In graveyards, in outhouses, underwater, and using backhoes, shovels and pick-axe, tote a boat, buy a kiddie pool inflatable raft and diving gear and investing in the best flashlight money can buy or even a UV light… Right?

            No I don’t find it strange that the book may not have mentioned anything… I [personally] find it strange that many don’t have common sense.

            LOL so, I’ll be the first to say, I’m full of it…
            I mean, common sense…

          • Seeker
            Common sense is key.
            It is a very hard attribute to find these days, especially with youth. Our stupid cell phones and stupid computers are the new common sense and everyone knows it all. I can honestly say I have never posted anything on a blog until I discovered this site. I don’t Facebook, I don’t brag about my adventures, and I rely on my own judgement and common sense, and guess what I can count back change in my head.
            Thanks for being the most sensible and common sense mediator on the blog.

            Always thinking
            The one and only

          • Seeker,

            You said, “That is an egotesticle force fit to one’s solve,..”
            You’re kidding, right? Typo, right? If so, very funny.

        • Hi JDA – No, I did not look up the definition of but because f has said that geography is important and that the words in the poem are in plain English.

          If you have used a dictionary to figure out simple words or try to make things more complicated, you are probably on the wrong track.

          I have gone back through TTOTC and IMO it really does have enough information to lead one to the treasure if they don’t complicate or read more into what is there. Of course I don’t have the chest to prove my theory but some day may.

          IMO the solution is very simplistic but others may disagree.

          • We have had this discussion a couple of times HMA – no need to beat a dead horse. I believe that every word is important, and that it is dangerous to skip any of them. I also believe that there are many different definitions for even the simplest of words, and that Forrest worked on that – so, it is up to me to understand all of the meanings, and to then choose the meaning that I feel Forrest meant me to choose.

            You feel differently – Good luck to ya’ JDA

  36. “And in close proximity were stone projectiles and crudely made hand axes that could have been 30,000 years old. I was looking at conflicts piled on top of conflicts. Who can imagine how many…”

  37. Covert1
    I think you are spot on with your list.
    1-4 are a going to be very vital for a solve.
    I liked your word balance for 1&2.
    Sometimes I substitute Sweet Tea for #7.

    • CC – I think Sweet Tea is an excellent substitute for #7!

      Once in a while, I substitute Wine for #7. I don’t do that frequently though (or else they’ll try to send me back to those “meetings” again!).

      I like your suggestion so much that the list is now revised! See below for the most important things to solve the poem (WWWH and other parts). IMO

      1. Logic (correctly balanced w/ Imagination)
      2. Imagination (correctly balanced w/ logic)
      3. Patience
      4. Persistence
      5. BOTG and Failure
      6. Adjustment after Failure
      7. Coffee – lots of coffee -OR- Sweet Tea -OR- Wine

      CC – that’s a mighty good suggestion! I think the list is now complete!

      • Covert One
        Yep! Looks nice and complete.
        Number 3 drives me crazy.
        I found and feel in love with this poem 2 years ago. There are times it feels like a love/hate relationship.
        I just can’t let go of it.

  38. JDA-

    Thanks for sharing aboUT the definition of the word “but”. It reminded me of when my brother introduced me to my first girlfriend. She had been his girlfriend first.

    He said to me “She has freckles on her but, she is.nice”. I found out later he,was right about the freckles, but he was wrong about her being nice. Funny how words can bring back memories.

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