Odds n Ends About Fenn’s Treasure Hunt…Part Forty One

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Thanks…

 

dal…

655 thoughts on “Odds n Ends About Fenn’s Treasure Hunt…Part Forty One

  1. Dal,

    I was wondering why you don’t have a YouTube channel on Fenns Treasure, maybe you have already got one that I don’t know about?

    Ronnie the Scot

  2. Kelly,

    In the poem meek is not capitalized. I don’t think Meek Mountain fits the poem, it states, “no place for the meek”, which I think Meek Mtn would be cancelled out.

    • Charlie, Forrest is a joker…in my solve a simple drive past nosy locals on the dead end road, as their mangy dogs chase you, to me is the most unnerving part of the adventure.

  3. “So no one has seen anything concrete that contradicts the tenet that the first two clues are “mapable” and the rest need to be BOTG”?

    I’m assuming by “mapable” you mean that they can be found by using a map only?

    I’m not 100% sure about that one(who is).
    Anyway,

    f. said “if you knew where the chest was, you could find it using that map”, so at least the location of the chest is “mapable”.

    Assuming all the clues are actually geographic locations and you have a good map, then You could say they are all “mapable”.

    {(o)}/””\{(o)}

    • by Jenny Kile · February 23, 2016

      thrill of the chase treasure hunt

      Forrest Fenn I hope,

      I am new to the treasure search and there is so much contradictory information on the blogs I don’t know what to believe and what I shouldn’t. It must be just as confusing for you to read. Can you tell me anything that will help me? Thank you Mister Fenn. Adell

      PS, I am a city girl.

      I will try Adell.

      Read the blogs for entertainment, and the poem like you were going to put an X on a map. Beyond that I am not compelled to reiterate. Hunt prepared and go safely. Good luck. f

      • Read the blogs for entertainment…

        I always thought that was funny but also quite severe at the same time.

        Dals’ blog is alright.

      • welcome please be safe and prepared remember the treasure is in a safe place

      • Another good one…..
        “Stop arm chairing that thing to death and get out in the trees where the box is, but before you go, look at the poem as if it were a map, because it is, and like any other map, it will show you where to go if you follow its directions.”

      • Forrest said that a girl in India could not get past the first two clues. So only the first two clues can be solved by looking at a map / Wikipedia etc.

        • I can not agree with that assumption. Since3 I do not hold Indulgence, I can not prove your assertion, but I am pretty confident that almost all of the clues CAN be solved at your computer with GE and a TOPO at your side – and of course, the poem and TTOTC, JDA

        • OnTheChase: she cannot get “closer” than the first two clues, and (per Jenny’s question) she only has a map of the U.S. Rocky Mountains. Those are both important details.

          • Oz10: it means that if you have a physical map of the entire Rocky Mountains (even if it is 8 x 10 feet), it is unlikely to contain the level of detail required to drill down to clues beyond the first two. So if poor Indy is limited to such a map, the answers to clues 3 and beyond cannot be found on it (in my opinion).

          • Looks like Jenny left f. a lot of wiggly room by saying “a map of the U.S. Rocky Mountains”. Such a map likely doesn’t contain information beyond that of the terrain, so anything man made or historical is likely missing.
            {(Ω)}Y{(Ω)}

          • Zap, if the question was the same but instead of the map we change for Google earth, the answer would be different?
            How many more clues can she get closer in your estimation?

          • Hi Oz10.

            To be honest, I think I have used a quantity of over ten maps to get to where I am today.

            All were useful in their own way.

            So keeping yourself to just one map….even just two…..you will fail in your search attempt.

            Just my opinion….sorry.

          • Oz, You ask what if “Google Earth?” IMHO, 1 clue and 3 hints until you better have your boots on and getting dirty.

          • Lmn, 1+3 hints.

            You are saying that no matter how good the map or using GE, that will only take us closer to clue #2 ?

          • Hi Oz10:

            “Zap, if the question was the same but instead of the map we change for Google earth, the answer would be different?”

            Very.

            “How many more clues can she get closer in your estimation?”

            That’s really two questions. IMO, she can solve ALL the clues with the proper map (Google Earth or otherwise). But I don’t think it’s necessarily true that each clue takes her “closer” to the treasure chest. The route may not be direct.

          • Can we combine a couple of ff answers (li’l India + searchers who solved the first two clues) and say:

            (with just the poem, good English, and a map of the Rocky Mountains . . . )

            She cannot get closer than the first two clues = She CAN get within 200 feet of the chest?

            Jake

        • Oz, 1+3 is MHO. That is why human nature is to sit at home and make an infinite number of locations, fit an infinite possible number of clues (which still only total 9), sending good people in an infinite number of directions when they finally settle on a location to take a hike.

          • Zap,

            I hope you and others see this post – but referencing the quote by Forrest and the girl from India:

            Everyone seems to focus on the importance of what she can’t get with only a map of the rocky mountains and the poem – What’s amazing is Forrest is saying she can solve Clues 1 & 2 with ONLY these!!!!

            This is an AMAZING hint (IMO)!

            THINK!

            HOW COULD THIS BE POSSIBLE (the most important clues can be solved: WWWH and then next clue)?

            What does this say about the nature of the first two clues?

            Lastly looking back Zap you posted a list of qualifiers – one of them referenced the use of commas in your solve or to not use the placement of commas in your solve.

            Can you please provide the original reference for this qualifier?

            Thanks, GCG

          • Hi GCG: I subscribe to most of the main topic areas on Dal’s site for the very reason that I don’t want to miss posts like yours.

            “…referencing the quote by Forrest and the girl from India: Everyone seems to focus on the importance of what she can’t get with only a map of the rocky mountains and the poem – What’s amazing is Forrest is saying she can solve Clues 1 & 2 with ONLY these!!!!”

            Yep, I agree it is rather revealing information, both what she *can* do, and what she can’t. IMO, if one’s WWWH cannot be located on, say, a 6′ x 8′ map of the U.S. Rocky Mountains, then I would think that searcher should be a bit concerned that not only can Little Indy do so, but she can also solve the second clue.

            Finally, on your question about the commas in the poem, I was politely asked by Dal not to provide the reference, and I agree with his reasons. As Loco offered earlier, if you want to ask me over on Jenny’s, I can provide it there.

          • Zap –

            I see GCG’s question on the Hot Chocolate page. I do not see your response. I’m curious as well and I know others are.

            THANKS

  4. Follow up from previous

    Seeker, didn’t mean to make argument but the word “Rules” is made up by the folks on this blog… Not by Mr. Fenn.

    There’s not a quote that says, “follow these rules” that’s all I’m saying. If there is I will be glad to add it to my current list of things I have wrong. Ok?

    And btw… I probably called a lot of people “old kid”… just to make things clear

    • James,
      I am an old kid.

      No there is not designated lay out of rules by fenn in written form.
      However, fenn tells all… #1. read the poem, it contains 9 clues. #2. follow those clues to his rainbow. and, the treasure. # 3 Don’t go where an 80 yrs old can’t go carrying a heavy backpack. [ that’s more of a safety rule ]
      Those are the principle conduct of the searcher to do if the enter this fenn’s challenge. The start of fenn’s rules…

      Other information [ almost like a check list ] is now known.
      ~More than 8.25 miles N of SF. If you don’t follow that and looking south for the chest … you’re breaking the rules fenn placed.
      ~The chest is located with 4 known stated… if you’re outside the state looking for the chest [ chest and not clues, as of this date ] you’re breaking fenn’s rule on where to look.
      ~If you’re in Utah, Idaho or Canada in search of the chest… you’re breaking fenn’s rules.

      All these known ATF are ‘rules’ and what we knew from the start are ‘rules’ we need to follow… or stay home.
      If folks want to dive in 6′ of water looking for the chest… they just broke one of the most resent posted fenn’s ‘rules’…
      These are not made up by bloggers. And yes, there is not a personal fenn drawn-up document with all the rules. It’s our responsibility to know them…** Ignorance of the Rules is not an excuse…**
      However fenn did state there are rules to follow [ which was in my first response.] and those rules started with the book release, and still are being add to ‘by fenn’ for almost 8 years.
      We, just call those rules ~ verifiable ATF.

      • Ok seeker. I will concede to the “rules” are Fenn’s words/statements.

        Missed the “not 6′ under water ” though.

        … And I agree that ignorance is not an excuse… Maybe you can agree that ALL rule list written (here) are not fully 100% accurate unless someone has put it in exact “” form and site the “” location. There’s a lot being floated around.

        Unless I missed it in that format and you can provide the link. Or maybe someone is working on that.

        • Nope, a lot that is presented as factual by some are either hearsay or not verifiable. That’s why I used the words ~ verifiable ATF.
          Some comments from fenn even seem to be ambiguous… hidden vs. buried for one. In cases like these, we need to use common sense as a guideline. Wasn’t deliberately buried, but nature may have do that job, line of thinking… We just don’t know.

          But I agree that even some of the verifiable quotes [rules] get twisted along the way by wrongly repeating… so has you sated earlier.. newbies and not so new wannabes need to double check.
          Listed below on every page are a couple [ or more ] searchers who have put together time consuming quotes and ATF’s or have web pages delegated to searching quotes… Dals sight has tons of information covering every aspect of the chase… MW’s has most of the Q&A between directly answered by fenn.

          I don’t need to tell you… that was for the new people on the block.

  5. On the same lines….Even though josh gates did a segment on His show. Individuals hunting would make a great series. Have you pitched it to a network? I know mine and everyone else’s blunders and crazy searchers would be quite amusing. Honestly most of us are not the mountain bike rider type. Just regular folks looking for an adventure.

  6. This is how I read the poem, I’m at WWWH, where i’m told to take it in the canyon down, not far but too far to walk, which tells me nothing I can use, so i’m still at WWWH. Put in below the home of brown, which tells me nothing tangible, I’m still at WWWH, ect. All the way through the poem.

    • If you’re at the correct WWWH, then I believe you’re a step ahead than most.

      This is an opinion, offered as a thought.

    • James,

      More food for thought, maybe look a little further down, which may lead to HoB. Then again you might be at the wrong wwwh.

      Your working it the same as most here.

    • James,
      This almost sound like another brilliant, and good lookin, poster gave a theory on… you’re stand at wwwh and all the clues are looking back at you… But tarry scant with marvel gaze, just take the chest and go in peace… if you’ve been wise to find the blaze.
      Case scenario…wwh is either the blaze or the blaze is very near. The question is… can all the clues be seen from wwwh overall, or a very specific spot at wwwh only.

      In theory anyways.

      • Jeez…that wood be swell…wouldn’t it?
        Park…sit in car for say 30 minutes…tunes going.
        Get out and look around maybe 30 minutes.
        Mosey on over to the blaze and eat sandwich 30 minutes.
        Look quickly down…not for 30 minutes.
        Fall over in a frenzy…maybe 60 minutes

    • James,
      If all you need is WWWH why did Mr Fenn bother to include the rest of the clues? I would be skeptical of my solve if the remaining lines in the poem “tells me nothing I can use”. I’m more assured of my solutions when each of the clues is a difficult problem on its own. I’m going on the assumption that if we only needed the first clue, or if the rest fell into place once we had the first clue, this thing would have been solved long ago.

      • Hi JW, It’s not that the rest of the clues tell me nothing. But that HOB, seems to be the last place that we are directed to. For example,the poem says, put in below the HOB, OK, so far so good. Then the poem says, from there it’s no place for the meek. This isn’t telling us to go anywhere, it’s saying the area at the HOB, is no place for the meek. And thus, I believe the rest of the clues are in the same area. IMO

        • Good observation JP. People are caught on finding the HoB and paying less attention to put in below IMO. Finding the put in and no place for the meek from there is more important whether it leads us in the direction of HoB or another way.

        • James;

          I would suggest that once you find the correct hoB, that there will be a road nearby. Take that road in whatever direction it goes. You will probably find a place that is “No place for the meek” soon there-after. You can probably do this from your armchair with maps or GE.

          This worked for me. – JDA

          • “I would suggest that once you find the correct hoB, that there will be a road nearby. Take that road in whatever direction it goes. You will probably find a place that is “No place for the meek” soon there-after. You can probably do this from your armchair with maps or GE.” – JDA

            If a person could find HoB from their armchair then why not go search from every spot you can find on GE and could consider a HoB and go find the chest?

            FF said that if we knew what/who Brown was, and I am paraphrasing, we would go right to the chest. He also said we have to start with the first clue. If both are true then how do we find a HoB from the arm chair? Couldn’t we skip the first clues and go right to the chest if so?

            I’m not saying you are wrong JDA but just trying to reason out how you could be right.

          • Hi JDA, Back when this forum started, we discussed the seeming grandeur of the chase. IMO, that tended to make the poem seem equally grand or extensive. I hadn’t really given the poem much attention in the past, I just followed it on it’s journey, like most other searchers. Today I have a much more compact view of the poem. In my solve, if I am looking at the HOB, then I suspect that the chest is between me and the HOB.

          • James –

            How about HoB, the clues that follow, and the clues that proceed?

            All in one place at one time.

            Lugnutz

        • James, if From there , it’s no place for the meek then it is the place for someone being something different than being meek.

          Sounds like it is the place is a place, one where it all goes down.

      • JW – In this scenario, perhaps the rest of the clues help you choose the correct WWWH, then, when you arrive there, your marvel gaze of the other clues take you on a visual journey to finally end up looking down to the spot where the chest is hidden?

    • Begin it where warm waters halt
      And take it in the canyon down,
      Not far, but too far to walk.

      After you take it in the canyon down(not far) are you still in the canyon, or out of the canyon?
      This part has me really wondering.

      • Hay-
        No one here can answer this question. It is unknowable by everyone except Forrest until the poem is solved. Folks can only give you their opinion…
        But at any rate, this question does not belong here in Odds n Ends…
        There are many discussion pages on the blog and comments should be left on the most appropriate page..not the most convenient…
        This question would be better placed on “The Poem” or “The Nine Clues” discussion pages.

  7. James, yes welcome.. listen (read) to all of the above (& those to come), searches’ posts.
    Read & filter the posts on Dal’s sites in all of his listed catagoties going back as far as you can (there is a lot of wisdom to be gleaned from most). The area between approx.
    35.87419 deg. N. lat. & the Canadian border is humongous, even with it’s constraints. I used to quible with myself over the diff. inbetween the ranges (& sometimes flats) that constitute
    the Continental Divide and and the often parallel mnts that are really not part of the Divide, and now accept all as in the Rocky Mountains. We are pretty much still all in the same boat, irregardless of “expertise” or length of time searching, be it virtual or BOTG.
    Best of luck to you.

  8. So where is the ATF comment about water, not in water, not under water… whatever whatever. Anyone?

        • At the top of every thread are some “Important” places you should look at. One of them is called “Safety First” – a couple of others are: “Rules”, “Cheat Sheet” and “Fundamental Guidelines” – please take a look at all – they are helpful – JMO JDA

  9. I was reading this short presentation by a searcher, and how he came to understand his “solve”. He said that he took these letters from the poem:

    OWAH
    TJER
    KYAM

    He insists that when you concentrate on each word, reading them in order, and then read them again faster—and then faster again, that you will come to some kind of inner realization. So far it hasn’t worked for me. Maybe you can try it. Thanks.

  10. This is like the stock market… NEVER buy into something that you don’t BELIEVE in… Sometimes you’re right and sometimes you’re wrong. We all hope we’re right more than wrong.

  11. Your treasure hunt has inspired people worldwide to discover history, culture and nature, but many people, (even in the US) might be deterred because they don’t live near the Rockies or can’t afford to travel. Should they be deterred? Can a little girl in India, who speaks good English, but only has your poem and a map of the US Rocky Mountains, work out where the treasure is? And would she be confident as she solves each clue, or only confident when she has solved them all?

    I wish I had another treasure to hide in the Appalachians. The little girl in India cannot get closer than the first two clues. There are many disabled people who are deeply into maps and geography, and they are having a lot of fun. f

    http://mysteriouswritings.com/six-questions-with-forrest-fenn-over-five-years-of-the-thrill-of-the-chase/

    What is obvious about this Q and A to a seasoned searcher? What is obvious info to a new searcher? How we would dissect this? How confused the new searcher would be.

    Forrest answers the first part of this question with what seems to be direct, honest and gives a poignant response, as though he was touched by feelings that everyone should be included in the Thrill of the Chase, then he answers the “little girl from India” part of it by saying that she can get not closer than the first two clues, then reverts back to: “There are many disabled people who are deeply into maps and geography, and they are having a lot of fun.” f

    The obvious part of this exchange to me was that 2 clues, obviously the first; “Begin it WWWH” and IMO the second;” And take it in the canyon down” could be solved with/by just using the Map of the Rocky Mountains. So if several searchers have solved those first two clues what does that mean to you? Crowd response?

    TT

    • On one occasion he says “all you need to find the treasure is the poem and a good map”

      On another occasion he says “you can’t get closer than the first 2 clues with just a map and the poem”

      Rich man speak with forked tongue.
      {(O)}/\{(O)}

      • On another occasion he says “you can’t get closer than the first 2 clues with just a map and the poem”

        That is not what was said… But you can prove me wrong by telling us where that quote came from, or posting a link to that supposed quote.

    • If you really want a good response TT, you might want to add fenn talking about Little Indy as a fluke of Jenny’s … it din’t matter if it was a boy from another place or a kid from another area.
      Just saying…

    • Someone unfamiliar with your poem receives a message that says “meet me where warm waters halt, somewhere in the mountains north of Santa Fe”. Would they be able to work out where to go? If they can’t, would they need the whole poem, another stanza, or just a line or word to help them on their way? ~Phil Bayman

      There are a few words in the poem that are not useful in finding the treasure Phil, but it is risky to discount any of them. You over simplify the clues. There are many places in the Rocky Mountains where warm waters halt, and nearly all of them are north of Santa Fe. Look at the big picture, there are no short cuts. f

      If NEARLY all of the WWWHs are north of Santa Fe, where do you think that word NEARLY is a reference too?

      Give me an example of one that might be South?

      This is what gave me the solve I used in my “Winter Thoughts” article on this blog in early March 2017, long before I knew for sure about the New Zealand interview confirming WWWH as the first clue.

      Toby Younis, had this WWWH some time back as well, we both are old time fishermen in NM, this was required knowledge from NM Game and Fish proclamation many,many years in the past, where WWWH was stated annually and clearly define where on each river, lake or stream/creek when it was used in THE POEM it was immediately apparent where he got it, what was not apparent was which canyon down since they all go down from the Rockies. But only two go down from the Rockies accross the 32nd Parallel, which IMO is also another WWWH. Pecos and the one that
      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/La_Llorona…. live s on and has take two searchers, Randy and Paris, RIP.

      What is a structure; something that an Architect designs.

      If ff felt like and Architect, about constructing the poem, did he design a structure, a picture, a map or is it something entirely undiscovered as yet ?

      TT

      • To me Forrest’s answer is an indication that you need all (or almost all) of the words in a clue to solve. In this case the questioner only uses where warm water halts in his question and leaves out begin it where. IMO errors of omission leave an unsolvable mess.

      • “If NEARLY all of the WWWHs are north of Santa Fe, where do you think that word NEARLY is a reference too?”

        The places in the Rocky Mtns where warm waters halt.

        I’ve considered this response oh his as an example of ‘typical’ Fenn wit. Look at a map. The vast majority of the Rocky Mtns are north of Santa Fe. By definition, then, nearly all of anything that happens in the Rocky Mtns happens north of Santa Fe — where warm waters halt, where one finds a canyon, where Brown has a home, where people are wise, where blazes can be found…

        “There are many places in the Rocky Mountains where [insert practically anything here], and nearly all of them are north of Santa Fe.”

        Geography tells us so.

        • Nearly isn’t really a reference to ‘where’ as much as, amount of. It’s the same as saying a store has many canned goods products and nearly all are in the soup aisle.
          All i can make out about nearly is if you have an idea for wwwh… there should be one of the same south of SF.
          Maybe the right inquiry would be; what within the poem tells me where wwwh that also tells me where hoB is. I know that sorta skips over canyon down and too far to walk… but there are as many canyons as water anything, and NFBTFTW doesn’t pop out to say a location… the next piece of information we have is hoB.
          Logic tells me we need to combine wwwh and hoB as individual reference but one in the same to find the correct first clue. My point is; when looking at GE or any map ya like… don’t just settle on a water reference that fits both N and S locations, but one that relates to hoB at the same time.

          IF, and this is a big IF… hoB is of many as well. [ same type of reference ] two things must happen;
          1. something later in the poem must be a single stand alone reference to a specific location and only N of SF.
          or
          2. hoB is unique enough to give the correct wwwh out of all the possibilities of wwh.

          I don’t believe you can just find wwwh. It has to be combined with something else in order to locate wwwh to start at. A canyon is not specific at all, but home is… line of thinking.

  12. I have a question. Can the poem only be solved if read or studied in English? What I mean is if a German person translated the poem into German is there still a chance he could solve it? Or must the original English translation be used?

    I guess what I am asking is this: are the words themselves more important to finding a solution than their meanings?

    • Hi Sparrow,
      This is a really good question. In my opinion the poem can be solved only in English.

    • IMO, Sparrow, the poem is unsolvable if “messed with” in any way. That means no translations to other languages, no synonym or homonym substitutions, no reading the poem in a mirror, no combination of lines, nothing. I firmly believe that the poem must remain exactly as presented: 6 stanzas, 4 lines per stanza. I really think “don’t mess with the poem” should be taken to the literal extreme.

      • Agreed. The poem is not some vague notion that can be approached casually or amended to suit a searcher’s biases. Mess with any of it and you destroy your chances of ever finding the treasure, IMO.

      • Zap,
        Give me the definition of home… does it not mean dwelling, habitation, a ‘targeted’ location { I like that one if you really think about it } But the point is they are all synonyms… how can you possibly rule out synonyms for word usage in an interpretation?
        What about down? Which definition do you use? Only a lower level and nothing more… there’s gotta be 15 direct definitions of the word down usage.
        I mean, fenn used “warm” as ‘comfortable’… there synonyms, right?

        How can you get away from any word’s synonyms?
        Might as well say Idioms won’t help either, even though a group of words can be interpreted differently from each individual word usage. Such as NFBTFTW could relate to time [ almost saying you can’t walk back in time to a certain time but that time period is not far way. [ because there is no known distance to work with, not without some kinda counting of hidden numbers of words or letter or stanzas or lines etc. or guessing from another source, like the second book ]

        IF this wasn’t as “poem” I might agree with you to a point… but fenn chose the avenue of a poem to present the clues. He could have just placed clues in the book and skipped a poem.
        The poem idea, allowed flexibility of word usage… a poem is not ruled by a single word definition usage… a poem yells idioms and synonyms.

        End of commentary

      • “Solving” the poem is not “messing with” the poem.

        So, really it comes down to what “solving” the poem truly means. If a method or way of solving it is required, then that way or method is not messing with it. IMO

        • I agree. If one googles the definition of “solve,” one of the synonyms provided is to “find the key to.”

          Once one discovers the key and truly apprehends it for what it is, it can be applied to the lock (poem). It frees up not just one tumbler (clue), but all nine almost at once. The treasure is, of course, waiting on the other side, IMO.

          • (At the Top), you are correct, IMO. But even when you’ve unlocked the nine, it’s still a long haul, and a lot of imagination is required.

          • Yep – I’m starting a new campaign this spring. Gonna try a new set of lenses to read this poem. Not sure what that key is, but good things await. Now, if I can just shake the voices in my head that tell me West Yellowstone is…ugh! “Go west young man!”

        • Covert One,
          I agree. My current way of telling if I’ve messed with the poem is I take my solution back to the corresponding lines in the poem, and if I can state that my solution is “in the poem” then I allow it. So I don’t allow additions or substitutions (unless the poem tells you to). As there has to be the occasional letters or words added to make it into a readable poem I allow those, but with reservations and I go back to make sure that those items being left out can’t be applied in some other way. To my eye all parts of the poem have a literal meaning and a hidden meaning. The hidden meaning requires what some people consider to be messing with the poem, but you have to make sure that any extra meaning you find is actually in the arrangement of the words, letters and sounds of the poem.

      • Zap,

        I agree, it took Forrest 15 years to complete.

        DON’T MESS WITH THE POEM.

        Ronnie the Scot

      • Zap… depends on the definition of “Mess” … and I know all the rules about no Codes, no cifers… etc

        but who am I… no (chest in hand) body

      • Seeker: what I mean is that if you literally start substituting different words for the words in the poem, and then attempt to decipher the result, you may unwittingly eliminate a clue or a hint. Poems are not just about the words contained within; poems have “structure” as well as cadence and (in the case of Forrest’s poem) and A/B/A/B rhyming pattern.

        Now, ~interpreting~ the words of the poem is another matter, and of course unavoidable. If a searcher wants to translate the words of the poem into another language, fine — have at it if you think it will help. I would just caution against a “playing telephone” type of approach to solving the poem, i.e. make a word substitution, pass it down, interpret a phrase, pass it down, etc. By the time the poem passes through ten hands it bears little resemblance to the original. Even something as simple as changing “home of Brown” to “Brown’s house” (of which a lot of reporters are guilty) seems harmless enough, but could kill the clue.

      • I agree Zap.

        Beginning with the word, “As” and ending with “peace”.

        It all matters. It all requires in consecutive order.

        No shortcuts, unless you figure it the key.

        The game is afoot.

        • Tim,
          I have a solve that gets to “peace” but it doesn’t lead me to the chest. It just leaves me in zugzwang. Maybe you have to go all the way to “gold”?

    • You can translate it to other languages, look up words, etc. to help you understand it as written. All words have origins, roots, etc. (and, in the case of FF’s poem, several definitions each—LOL) and, IMO, looking into these things gives you a better understanding of the poem as written.

    • IMHO NO if I translate the poem to a different language other than English… the poem will read the same but some of the Clues will not be available… I tried that with spanish… and most of them went away.

  13. Mr. Fenn said, that the hiding place was not in close proximity to a human trail. Proximity is an interesting word, it’s a function of perspective, not distance. For example, we can say that two atoms in a sheet of paper, are in close proximity, we can say that a pair of bookends are in close proximity, we can say that the furniture in a room, is in close proximity. Proximity can add dimension, to an otherwise two dimensional landscape.

    • James P.

      What do you class as not in close proximity?

      5 Feet
      10 Feet
      50 Feet
      100 Feet
      500 Feet

      I could go on and on.

      Ronnie the Scot

      • Hi Ronnie, What it means is. He told us nothing, in relation to distance. But, he did tell us that there is more than one way, to look at the landscape.

    • example 1) ——-x——-

      one is not in close proximity when one is on a trail, right?

      possible?

      just another question

    • Hi James;

      I know you did not put it in quotes, but here is the actual quote: ““If you ain’t the lead dog, the scenery never changes. When I am in the mountains or in the desert, the last place I want to be is on a trail. Ain’t no adventure in that for me. There isn’t a human trail in very close proximaty (sic) to where I hid the treasure”. f
      Please note that he said – “… in very close proximaty (sic) to where I hid the treasure”. f VERY close is (to me) different that just “close” – JMO – JDA

      • Combining that with Fenn’s other statements, I personally believe there is no human trail closer than 200 feet from the treasure. And, I also believe that it’s likely that the blaze is not visible from a human trail. Just my opinion.

      • thanks JD… I forgot that part of the quote, “When I am in the mountains or in the desert, the last place I want to be is on a trail. Ain’t no adventure in that for me.”

      • Hi JDA, We didn’t need a distance clue, we already had 200 feet and 500 feet from two reconcilable fixed points. It tells us something different that has to do with perspective, like when he covered all of Philadelphia with his thumb. But to say more, would be giving to much away.

      • come on you guys. Look at the SB of “pickels”. I forget which one right now, but he says that pickels cousins’ (other lures) are not in close proximity of pickles. Pickles is 2 1/4″ from them. So, close proximity to f is 2 1/4″. What do you think “very” would say?

  14. An odd thing my mind decided to bring into my awareness lol. The 6 questions with FF on MW consistently end up being posted yearly on the date February 4 – 2013,2014,2015, 2016.

    Just happenstance? I wonder. IMO

    • Interesting, Alsetenash. Hadn’t thought it could have meant anything other than something to look forward to.

      • Just a pattern I noticed . Could very well be of no significance; though architecture involves specific planing and detail. Could be a rabbit hole being 2/4 of 24 lines. Lol. Something’s can be a draw-attention-to mechanism from oblivious to awareness. IMO .

      • I remember reading something about Jenny posting the 6 questions on the same date every year on her site. I don’t think there is any significance to the date at all. That’s just something that she decided to do on her own. Maybe she did it so people know when to look for the new posts every year?

    • I imagine it’s to start stirring us out of hibernation and get the juices flowing again for the upcoming season.

      Like ML Baseball spring training starting about a month before the vernal equinox.

      Jake

        • If it’s important to you, Shane, just ask Jenny Kile. It’s her feature/tradition and I doubt she’d mind answering the question.

          While it was still running over at MW, the Weekly Words from FF feature came out every Friday. That’s probably no more a subtlety than the 6Q’s coming two days after Groundhog Day every year.

          Jake

          • Thanks J A Kraven. There is always a logical explaination applicable to anything. Though ,this can be analyzed to a logical reasoning; my respect for the universe dictates there is nothing happenstance in logic or imagination. No matter which one is the chosen denominator. Within their balanced merits ,is the magic! IMO. Therefore, a mind can choose whatever it chooses and prove to itself in all its correctness all the day long day. Lol.

            Happy hunting!

          • **** mirror-tesla opined – “There is always a logical explanation applicable to anything. Though ,this can be analyzed to a logical reasoning; my respect for the universe dictates there is nothing happenstance in logic or imagination.” ****

            There is also always an economical explanation, though the two are not always the same (I think we’d both agree).

            To “there are no coincidences,” (while recognizing that that’s not necessarily what you’re saying), I like the counter-proposal that “there’s nothing BUT coincidences.” Everything is coincident with everything else, some way or other, no way ’round it.

            “Rational thought ” said Nietzsche, “is interpretation according to a scheme which we cannot escape.”

            And good hunting to you as well – two months to go until February Cabin Fever REALLY sets in on the Chase – we’re just getting warmed up! 😉

            Jake

    • Hmm. Also February 4, 2017. I can’t see this date prior to 2013 .That’s 5 consecutive years. Interesting , anyways. IMO .

    • Forrest probably has the date set on his calendar on his computer – either that or Jenny does. Doesn’t seem like a big deal to me. JDA

    • I don’t wonder.
      I think I’ll play lotto. 4, 22, 24, 42, 44 and 13.
      🙂
      If I don’t make it to town someone else pick those please. Good luck!
      🙂

        • Nice! 13 is the 12+1. Which is the power in geometry. The poem is symetrical of 12 being 24 lines. Double omega , IMO :).

          • Hey there All-set-in-ash. I’ve been there too, literally.

            I saw your post regarding the ΩΩ and it spurred me to chime because I’ve been dwelling on it for a while now and didn’t know if i should say anything or not.

            I’ve never been a numbers guy from a numerology perspective, then along came The Chase. All of a sudden, I started seeing certain numbers popping up all over the place. Not just the obvious numbers, but the “other” ones too. The ones derived from others.

            So you can put this is the “for what it’s worth category”, but here’s one of my theories on the double-Omegas. Of course we all know Ω is the 24th letter of the Greek alphabet.

            So mathematically, Ω x Ω = 24 x 24 = 576 = 2 to 9th power.

            Could this be the proof that we have to pass, loop, circle thru the poem twice to solve it? This could explain the circles and layers being seen, myself included.

            I sure hope I’m wrong because I’m having a hard enough time with getting it right once, let alone twice.

            Pinatubocharlie

          • I dont see numbers having much to do with poem’s creation of words or meanings . Numbers are seen, found ,whatever, but really just a simple counting in what is the obvious: 6 stanzas, 9 clues, 166 words and how many letters doesn’t matter to me , anyways. IMO .

            The only thing I see as a nod to numbers is the double omega. Yes , the omega is the 24th letter in the Greek alphabet and the omega symbol is Greek . So, from this focus, its doubled up- double omega. So at the simplest form it could be 24+24=48 =12=3- I get nothing to go on with this.

            So, I look at “Time” as a factor in the poem and his books- including OUOAW , with this double omega in his other book. There are 12 hours on a clock but there is 24 hours in a day. So , the omega could be connected to Time. Tired and week for doing double time lol. I don’t have an idea yet, just working on this perspective. IMO . I just think the double omega is rooted in something Time related or geometrical degrees in seconds but not coordinates of any some such. Could be 2 baby soothers ,of all things. IMO .

          • Ahem….*clears throat*…..*smiles BRIGHTLY*

            Duality I think is how I referred to it.

            Macro to micro….macro to micro…..repeats itself. Built upon each other…like an architect.

            View the whole picture to a 10×10 location, but do it as seeing the chest within a 32M mile region.

            I spoke of this in the past….and again recently.

            What can you expound upon?

            Cheers.

          • Tim,

            Notwithstanding my math blunder yesterday (I have no idea how that happened ), the point I was trying to make in my post apparently caught your attention and I acknowledge seeing many posts from you about “duality”.

            On one hand I can relate to duality though the term I’m using is “pair”. That is to say, 2 WWWH, 2 HoB, etc. Ever since joining the Chase my question has been that of confirmation. How do I know I’m in the right area? This might be that way. And I’m finding that plurality, assuming of course, I’m in the right area, though not for all the clues yet.

            On the other hand, I also see like 2 levels in the poem itself, with the first level setting the stage if will, to understand the theme. “Theme” might be a poor choice of words, but it’s the best I can do at this time. Once the theme is understood it will be the tool used to assist in correctly answering the clues. I am intentionally not using the term “key word” because though related to my theme, the two are not the same. Having said that, I have not completely settled on that key word, but I do have a short list of 2 or 3 candidates. And they all support my theme.

            I don’t know if this adequately answers your question, but that’s all I’m willing to share at this time.

            Take care……… pinatubocharlie

          • Close enough Pina….LOL

            A theme?…..looking at my solve, yeah I guess there is a theme. Clever too. I probably think many will be wrong in their solves if they can’t figure the right theme out.

            Mine is probably not related to yours….no worries.

            *winks*

            Trust me…..this solve I am using is not related to yours.

            Good luck.

          • The square root of 3 is ~1.732 but that really has nothing to do with the chase….or does it?

          • I just don’t think working with numbers would assist with the poem. IMO . I think the words are words for words , not numbers.

          • double omega symbols could be mirrored. Still give the same look, but in this case, would be 2442. Maybe it’s 2442 that we need. It is 2+4=6, or 66. 6th letter being F. FF. When was f 66 years old in Summer? ’97.
            Viola, marvel gaze.

          • Alsetenash ~ ‘I dont see numbers having much to do with poem’s creation of words…”

            WhatIF the numbers [ for lack of a better term ], maybe a design of the poem, giving verification to locations?

            We have 9 clues needing deciphering which can match many places [ but not all seem to be places]. One of the first “clues” fenn gave was; “above 5000’ ” While this is not really helpful in itself… maybe the idea is that the clues are told of by elevation factors.

            The poem didn’t have to be formed in stanzas [ although that is common ] As well as, 6 stanzas when most searchers, if not all, believe the actual clues are contained within 3 of those stanzas, right?
            Why not just have a 3 stanzas poem? 2-3-4 only?… just the clues… line of thinking

            Might it be the randomness of any possible places was narrowed down by word count of all six stanzas, idea.
            This, in theory, would help guide readers to six elevations needed or even 3, depending on how one reads clues.
            So, the scenario is;
            Locate the first [couple/three clues @ this elevation for certainty, and do the same with six clues. It would seem six are only needed because the first couple/few might be located together or don’t have an elevation factor, such as NFBTFTW. or TEIEDN line of thinking. Or only the three stanzas are needed.

            Basically saying, if you located the correct area… the physical places, a clue represent, could be verified by an elevation of word count in that particular stanza… in theory… all the information to find the chest is in the poem.

            As I have gone alone in there… elevation point of where you park, idea.
            Begin it where… elevation point of wwwh and hoB.
            From there… still assuming this relates to wwwh and hoB… this might be the elevation of HL and WH.
            If you been wise… is now the location elevation of the blaze.
            Leave my trove for all to seek… location elevation of the chest or could be, simply the highest point of the area [ to look for on a map]… which would give, hear me all, the final location and elevation factor… in theory.

            Simple thoughts to; how the poem might have been designed using words and numbers, idea. I mean, we are told about certainty of the path if we are certain of the location, right?

          • Seeker. Interesting highlight you put together and good points. Maybe the double omega means there’s 2 ways- words ,number sequences or a third being a combination there of. Numbers and words can be used to represent something of the same. Like you said, Down, NFBTFTW etc. It’s as much possible as it is not , to see both or use both. For me ,numbers are only helpful in a minor way.

            When I had my first two clues at a location, I went there but couldn’t search due to snow. I could view ,from a location point, the rest of the poem- read the poem is what I mean. I researched many things for there, first of course . Standing where I was , reading the poem with all the intel I had, I drew a map , from where I was standing, to within an area. The area is huge but I still need to find that small destination. I never applied numbers as derivative from words. That’s just me. Numbers could be another means to achieve the same occurrence ,with numbers and words being equal in the formation of the words in the poem. Either way, there is definately words in the poem . So, I work with words.

            Words or numbers or both; which ever works ,which ever is faster. Lol .

            Just my opinion.

        • Hi Jdiggins – 13 is a good number but I don’t think it will have any bearing on the correct solution. I do think certain numbers can play into the solution based in the poem and TTOTC. I think f figured out a way to use specific numbers as they relate to places on a map. Some may agree and some may not. I never started playing Canasta and don’t intend to. IMO that card game is a hint but only connects when you have a solution nailed down.

          • ATF comment of f saying, here’s someone who may find the chest because they have done the math and know exactly where it is.

          • Charlie:

            Can you re-post ff’s exact quote of doing the math, etc? What date was it? Was it quoted by Forrest Fire?

          • I’ll try again.

            Charlie:

            In regards to your ATF comment of F’s, here’s someone who may find the chest because they have done the math and know exactly where it is.

            Do you have an exact quote? Do you have a date the quote was made? Did ff sign it Forrest Fire?

          • Rob,
            it’s an e-mail fenn posted… Thread, Forrest gets mail.
            Is it possible that this says there is numbers, math, counting involved? IDK… you can read into it any way ya want I guess { I did } But I don’t hold it high up on the totem pole. fenn said he would not help anyone to get closer or lead them away. So again, who knows.

          • Seeker:

            Thank you for the find – Forrest Gets Weird Mail.

            I understand what you are saying.

            So just saying, there are concepts in ttotc with math, like page 17, “so that was two against one,” and page 29, “I gave each cat about five squirts” referencing all six cats.

          • I concur, Spallies! I can only count to twenty with a little help using my fingers and toes. 🙂 🙂

          • “The Thrill of the Chase”, page 128, “Gold And More”:

            ‘At age fifty-eight I had spent more than nineteen years asleep, and three of those years were on Mondays. Think about that for a minute.’

            Sounds like Math, Spallies.

          • Hi Spallies & pdenver – At this time, I don’t see any math involved, just matching some numbers with a place or two on a map.

          • Ha lol, I did think about that… I think I came to the conclusion he worked overtime on the weekends and slept more on Monday… I would imagine the gallery was busiest on the weekends… imo

          • pDenver , Spallies

            Hi guys ,

            I saw your comments on page 128

            Denver – it is math . And easy .

            But to save you time

            19.33 years asleep , if I remember right .
            That date would be April 1969 around if my memory serves me the 9th .

            I am not sure if that would matter to every searcher.

            But I would love to hear your thoughts.

            Mr.D

          • Spallies,
            LOL… I feel the same. It forces me to remove my shoes and maybe borrow someone else’s fingers and toes.

            Maybe that’s why fenn created the poem for a TXan with his wife and 12 kids??? or was it 8 kids?
            Did fenn say anything about the family pet? Maybe Besty’s hoof is needed. Is that counted as one or two for each hoof or 4 or 8 for all?
            Ah! danging, not I’ll have to research that……

  15. Jdiggins,
    I like 13 too, my birthday 7-13-58. I like to add the 5 and the 8 to make 13. That way it’s 7-13-13…..one step forward, two back, a memoir.’ Anyway, this map thing fits perfectly in my solve. You know how I’ve came up with the coordinates, and then taking it in the canyon do W.N. I use google earth on these 1st two clues myself. Takes me right to the house of brown on a bluff.
    Get a hold of me please , Dal sent you my e-mail, my name at yahoo.

  16. In my opinion, the “word that is key” is NOT Math. May I say however, that math may come in handy for your MPG getting there if your gas gauge is broken. Oh and if you find the TC, you will have to count to 265 at the very least.

    Thank you – Franklin

    • That’s a conundrum, Franklin. Care to expand on why we need to count to at least 265 after finding the chest?

      BTW, I think we may be back at the same spot now… am I right?

    • think the “265” is used in another way. Support info to the coordinates. Either way, it will come into play. Just take it with a grain of salt. Early on, he did say 225. Then changed to 265. He may have forgotten, but it does need to be answered given that in the book he said “hundreds”. Why not just keep saying hundreds? To actually put that many in the chest, and to tell us that many after, 265 will be involved someway. But, it is outside the poem and needs to be treated as just a hint. But one that needs to be solved.

      • All good points, charlie. I was just curious about needing the number after finding the chest. I have an idea, but can’t say I’m at all certain.

        • Don’t think after the chest, Vox. Just think it’s more like support info. Since it’s outside the poem, may be used in finding a bell or jar. Maybe it’s along the path, don’t know, but does need to be addressed somewhere in a solve. For me, it’s miles…

          • Thanks, charlie. I just went back over my solution, and you’re right, it does figure along the way. My path has been so long that I can’t remember everything that’s occurred!

            And talking of length, I think you may be the first person to mention a distance of over 100 miles as part of a solution. That, to me, means you’re a serious competitor! Good luck to you, sir.

          • good luck to you also, Vox. That’s only support info, don’t want to get that confused.
            It’s a good idea to look into anything f has stated in the book but then changed later on. I use the coins because I can prove something with them that may be his reason for the comment. That’s the thing, like Diggin Gypsy posted a while back. The basis for his stories All his stories have references. Like “a place that is dear to me”, to rest his bones. This can be seen as spelling “dear” wrong. To use “deer” instead may narrow your search area. Of course it’s going to be a place dear to him. But how many places with “deer” in the name are in the Rockies? For me, with a solve and all, and going back over things, I can see the basis of his comment.
            Deer Lodge. Deer Valley. It could be the reason for comments like saltpeter, train car, wwh, rest bones, nickels, etc…
            I like the thought that the searcher will find a bell before they find the chest. He’s not a big religious person, but is spiritual. Seems to believe in something afterward. With all the bell talk, goes to figure that he would put ringing a bell in the big picture, so he will know. The references to his stories are out there. The blaze and wwwh are going to consist of many things to prove in order to find. We know we cannot solve by just the lines in the poem. Goes to also figure that there will be a basis for his references to those two clues.
            My main issue is the start of this whole thing. Only the poem, (or book) was needed. It’s not impossible for someone to have solved the next day after launch. If that is the case, no ATF comments, or added clues, and knowing wwh cannot be solved from just line 5, how do we solve? Knowing the 3rd clue is most likely a BOTG clue, how would we know? At the beginning, it seems we couldn’t solve all the clues. But yet we could find the chest. I hope all could see where I’m going with this. If that genius solved the next day,(hypothetically), she would have had to only solve the poem. No other way. (I say she because we fellas all know the ladies are smarter in this chase then us). Lucky for us we’re not that bright, we may just find it. Finding the chest will make even the dumbest, ugliest caveman look sexy. Double omegas good, grunt…

      • Charlie,

        Last summer I was surprised to learn about this 10/6/14 Q&A at Jenny’s site.

        Q – “Are there any objects placed in the Bronze Chest that are connected, or have meaning to the place the chest is hidden? ~ Mike”

        A – “No Mike, everything in the chest is straight forward and visual, except my autobiography, which some might find dull.”

        I bring this up only to point out that IMO that comment does NOT apply to the amount of each item in the chest. I suspect as I believe you do, that the architect is hinting at something with those numbers and whoever figures it out will be a huge step ahead of the rest of us.

        Pinatubocharlie

        • Boy, for the life of me, I can not figure out how that portion of the quote says anything about numbers. I guess I AM getting old Pin. Can you unravel this one for an old coot? JDA

          • It not you JDA, it’s my failure to communicate. Here’s the back story.

            At the time I learned of the quote I was nearing the end of a BOTG search using the physical characteristics of the chest contents as confirmation I was in the right general area. The fact that the contents had no relevancy was a big blow and in hindsight, I took his answer way too literally. That was a huge lesson learned that I need to be constantly aware of as I’ve caught myself on the edge of that cliff a few times since.

            I recognized my error after getting back home and in my post was feebly attempting to support Charlie in his comment regarding the possible use of 265.

            I sure hope this helps.

            Pinatubocharlie

          • JDA,
            You never heard fenn say over and over again there’s 265 “gold coins” or two large gold nuggets the size of eggs, or 20,000 word bio etc etc.
            Numbers are in the chest no matter how you look at it… the question is are they useful? The answer seems to say, No.

          • come on JDA, what Seeker said…I’ll add, “the question is are they useful? The answer seems to say, No.”
            True, but, when it does come out to be useful, these types of “non-clues” become confidence builders. Like Seeker has said before, a type of checks and balance system for your clues.

          • True, there are numbers – I just happen not to be a numbers guy, so I do not see the relevence that some of you see. It may be my downfall, but I hope not – JDA

          • I guess you could say, I just do not see how it all adds up. For me numbers take away from or subtract from the meanings placed in words. I am sure that there are multiple cases where if you divide the poem into integers, the product will have relevance, I just can’t seem to balance that equation – JDA

          • That’s a lot of gold coins to count… That would be fun 🙂 I wonder if there was a reason for putting 265 gold coins in the chest?

          • Or pointing out the necklace has 254 rubies (July birthstone), or what was it, 14 emeralds? He could have simply said it contains a lot of rubies and emeralds too. Admittedly I am slow and not the brightest LED in the room, but HE designed this thing and trust me, a good architect pays attention to the details.

            I no longer discount anything he tells us because I can’t afford to do so. I just need to figure out what’s chaff.

            Pinatubocharlie

          • FYI Pina.

            Most, if not all locations that have a treasure associated to it, will have a manifest associated to the haul. Describing the contents. That is normally the reason why people go searching for these things.

            IMO – the amounts do not play a role in the final solve,

            Beale Papers – had one full page of the inventory
            15th/16th C. Treasure ships, all have a manifest of what they carried
            The Cabelello Mou,rain Treasure – lists the silver hoard in various locations.

            The obvious is in plain sight, why do many people think it is not?

            Good luck.

          • JDA, you’re looking for simplicity.
            I’m not saying those number are to be used to solve anything… but there are numbers in the chest and in the poem if one looks. It doesn’t take a ways meanings or usages of words… if it did, I surly wouldn’t be talking about them.

            Were told to marry clues to a place on a map. So for a simple example
            stanza 5 has word counts for each line… four numbers are produced from these counts 8858. Could it be that is your solve has a [ lets say elevation ] matches to what you think the clues are or a single clue…?
            That those number could give certainty of the path.
            Lets say fenn park his car at the closest point to the solve… As I have gone alone in there = 7 ~do this for the other lines… 7567. Could it be the elevation point of that location, and a type of verification for it? or a trail head?

            This idea, is not a code or cipher, it’s not changing any word or moving things around, it doesn’t stop any meaning of words for what a clue could refer to [ all the checks and balance, ideas ] it’s nothing more than the design of the poem. Or the thought that… all the information to find the chest in IN the poem… line of thinking.

            Do what ya will with the thought. I’m simply attempting to talk about the possibilities of numbers, without making up numbers in the process.

        • Another definition for DULL:

          lacking brightness, vividness, or sheen

          In his comment he mentions (visual) except his autobiography. Following his word games and double meanings, what is dull the reading of his autobiography or the jar where it is enclosed? Liked!

          • Same difference as buried vs. hidden and entombed vs. intern
            buried and entombed mean completely covered, trapped.
            Hidden and intern means confined, but not necessarily covered… and more to the fact as protected.
            Dull in this case can mean lack of light, and not so much lacking interest.

        • agree Charlie, to not only remember the amount, and to put that amount in there, then tell us, screams “look at me”. Easy to keep saying what he said in the book, but to specify it, lol, like you said, may give someone a huge step ahead. Even though it is outside the poem, is still an important reference needing an answer to.

  17. I am hung up on how many words make up the nine clues. For example, do the phrases “home of Brown” and “canyon down” contain one clue or two? Has FF answered any questions about this?

    • Verne, I think Fenn indicated that the second stanza sounds like three or four clues.

      Personally, I would look at everything as if it were a clue – don’t ignore anything. If something odd peeps out at you, study it from every angle. Eventually, it should start to make sense.

    • The OUAW foreword finally made complete sense. It won’t help you until you get to the end, but it’s worth bearing in mind for later on.

  18. I think if Forrest knew how good German chocolate cake ice cream was, the chest would be near a Baskin Robbins. Man this stuff is good…

  19. Hi Quelle – in Odds -n- Ends #40 you had a long reply that I failed to answer before it closed. You started:

    “One can read the poem plainly and flit from one clue location to the next toward the end. This is because the poem’s spatial directions do truly map onto specific landscape features, albeit with some poetic license.”

    I quite agree.

    “However, TTOTC is fairly required to accurately interpret the clues, and only in hindsight is the plain reading at all plain. And thus when the chest is claimed, the correct solution will elicit a “Why didn’t I think of that!” response.”

    I withhold judgment on the necessity of TTOTC, though of course now it is impossible for me to know if I would have gotten to the point I currently am without it.

    “13. “proximaty””

    Yes — I should have quoted Forrest word for word instead of interpreting his statement about the treasure chest not being in close proximaty to a human trail.

    “22. Men can make homes that aren’t structures, bear in mind.”

    Sure: caves come to mind. And I would say that we don’t have certainty that home of Brown can’t be a manmade structure, though I 100% dismiss the possibility.

    “28. Specialized knowledge, no. But knowledge outside of the poem and TTOTC which is probably considered common knowledge, yes.”

    Common knowledge is fine, including very basic history, the ability to read English and use the internet. Counterexample: Joseph Meeks. He is not a historical character that is anywhere close to common knowledge.

    “34. Again, there are two ways to approach the poem. In the plain reading, no, no outside information in required. But the plain reading only makes sense with information from TTOTC and a few other sources which is necessary to solve the clues.”

    I think TTOTC certainly helps; the question is whether it is essential. Forrest didn’t seem to think so, but I think there are some awfully big hints in that book. Maybe they can’t be used to ~solve~ clues, but for me they sure helped provide some confidence.

    “Clearly, if only a plain reading were sufficient, then those searchers who have solved the first two clues, or three, or seven, would simply follow the remainder of the poem’s navigational instructions to arrive at the chest’s precise location. But we haven’t yet.”

    Not yet, but I think more searchers are a lot closer than they were two years ago.

    “39. I’d just add that continuing “right past” the remaining seven clues and the chest doesn’t necessarily mean those clue locations are aligned arrow straight. Perhaps far from it.”

    I agree. I think anyone who has solved the first two clues has been within 500 feet — not necessarily at the location of either of those clues, but as a consequence of arriving there. But that’s just my opinion. I think most searchers misinterpret “Not far, but too far to walk” and this is what causes them to fail.

    “By the way, Zaph, I’m one of the lurkers you’ve always worried about.”

    If you search in Montana, I consider myself duly worried. 😉

    • Zap ~ Specialized knowledge, no. But knowledge outside of the poem and TTOTC which is probably considered common knowledge, yes.”
      I have read that Q&A dozens of time… still do.
      “Is any specialized knowledge required to find the treasure? For instance, something learned during your time in the military, or from a lifetime of fly fishing? Or do you really expect any ordinary average person without your background to be able to correctly interpret the clues in the poem? ~mdavis19”
      “No specialized knowledge is required mdavis19, and I have no expectations. My Thrill of the Chase book is enough to lead an average person to the treasure.f”

      A couple of things that jump out at me is “No Expectations.” IF the poem tells the reader what is needed to be known is that consider “special knowledge”? with No expectation the reader will pick up on it? That’s one way to look at the response.
      The other is… “the book is enough to lead the average person to the treasure.” Is there no information in the book that the “average person” would not know about? And if so, isn’t that something the average person would need to know if involve with the clues?

      This reminds me of No US history Q&A. Its’ not easy to pick up what fenn is putting down… So if older history is involved… lest say of NM for example… is some one from Maine to have this information already known to him… are you putting too fine a point of common vs. just not knowing? LOL fenn said Ants circle a tree and he knows why… I still don’t know why. Do you? I’m not really asking, i’m just attempting to make a point… as to what common really means.
      I wonder how common the words “warm waters halt” and what they refer to, will be to many if and when it’s ever told of. or what no paddle up your creek really is. Did fenn have any expectation the poem ‘could be’ solved? or only everyone as the same opportunity to find the information contained within the poem… whatever that information is.

      I’ll add, “IMO” you said ~“Clearly, if only a plain reading were sufficient, then those searchers who have solved the first two clues, or three, or seven, would simply follow the remainder of the poem’s navigational instructions to arrive at the chest’s precise location. But we haven’t yet.”

      A simple yes is all that I need to add.

      • Seeker – I am not familiar with the ants circle the tree phrasing. Not knowing anything about it, the first thing that popped into my head as to why is because it is a shorter trek to go around the tree than up one side and down the other? Food for thought…

    • Zap –

      I will remind you of what Fenn said about who he thinks might be on to something. Well back when he said it anyway.

      I am paraphrasing but think I’m correct:
      It’s not what they say on the blogs, it’s what they whisper.

      If he thought the people that were on to it were Lurkers he would have said something like:
      It ‘s not the commenters I worry about, it’s the lurkers that never comment.

      Ergo, don’t worry about Montana Lurkers. Worry about on or more of the commenters on one or more blogs.

      Hmmmm…
      Lugnutz

      • Lugnutz: you have a good point about lurkers vs. whisperers. Nevertheless, so far the whisperers and commentators don’t worry me; thus, it’s the people who ~don’t~ post anything that make me nervous.

        We know some very early folks figured out WWWH, but as far as I have been able to discern, none of them has tipped his or her hand here. Naturally I’m very curious if they: (1) are still in the Chase and getting closer, or (2) did not realize they had the right WWWH and switched gears, or (3) completely tossed in the towel.

  20. But just one of the biography and other things… I need to go back and review the items again. And emeralds are the birthstone for May I think…

    • This is a repeat of my answer to Seeker (above) that got caught in the moderation net (presumably due to containing part of a naughty Anglo-Saxon word!).

      I don’t believe any specialized knowledge is required either. Logical thinking is the biggest part of it.

      After my first Hebgen trip a few years ago, I realized that, for the poem to be solvable, it had to contain the means of solving it within its own boundaries. Forget books, scrapbooks and radio interviews, for the Chase to make sense the poem had to be standalone, otherwise you’d be forever opening can after can of worms.

      So, if all you have to work with is 24 lines, how do you get started? The poem tells you what to begin with, and, logically, it should also tell you where that starting point is – without having to throw darts at the map.

      What I discovered was that if you think about the problem on a large enough scale, you can find the information needed to apply within the poem. Imagination plus logic = result. It might take a while to make the connection, but it’s fairly straightforward – and the results speak for themselves.

      HoB follows on logically enough, so that reinforces your confidence about WWWH. After that things get murkier, but again, thinking about things on a wider canvas helps.

      The problem arises once you’ve discovered “the blaze.” You’ll probably make a BOTG trip full of excitement and brimming with confidence, only to return to heapings of crow pie. You look at the problem and try to work out where you could possibly have gone wrong. It all stacks up. And that’s when you begin to realize that there’s more – so much more – to the Chase and to the poem. And now you begin to understand the importance of numbers. It’s time to go back to WWWH.

      The poem is constructed in such a way that it’s very difficult to know where you are within the labyrinth. Even though the numbers are precise, the words are vague enough that, when you combine the two, they may still apply to multiple areas. Your job is to use a large helping of imagination and logic to extract the precise points. You’ll probably need to visit most, if not all, of them to build up the required “drawing” that will help you as you move further toward the final goal.

      This is without doubt a major undertaking. It was 15 years in the making, and it’ll likely take anyone years to fully solve. You cannot expect to solve it at home. It will require either multiple BOTG trips, or a single trip measured in weeks or possibly months to get to the end.

      And that’s where the on-the-ground hints come into the picture. I know that there are some here that will say, vox, you’re full of bull, what you’ve shown us is a bunch of trash and indistinct smudges – you’re just an attention-seeking blowhard. But think about it. If what I’ve outlined above is anywhere near the truth, it would be necessary to provide markers to both confirm that you’re on track and prompt further exploration. Without these

      • Sorry, the ending got lost…

        Without these, you’d feel so lost in the vastness of the project that you’d probably quit in utter frustration.

        So my suggestion to anyone seriously in the hunt for the treasure would be to concentrate all their brainpower on the first clue, and once you have WWWH, hoB and the no-paddle creek in the bag, start thinking about numbers and making that first BOTG trip.

        All the above is my opinion.

        • That was good vox.

          I’ll go get the chest next summer and end this hunt once and for all.

          :o)

          I have met all your requirements.

          How do I debunk my solve? I’ve tried. I can’t.

          But I continue to try.

          Good luck!

      • Vox,
        I was in full agreement until you hit the “on-the-ground hints” paragraph. No, I don’t think you’re an “attention-seeking blowhard”, but I do believe the poem will lead you to the correct spot (following an inevitable period of trial and error, to which you alluded).

        Additionally, I’m not a believer in numbers pulled directly from the poem, but I do believe numbers can be massaged from TTOTC as part of F’s “couple of good hints and a couple of aberrations…” comment.

        Just my opinion.
        Joe

        • Joe, thanks for your thoughts.

          The pics I’ve put out online are simply what I’ve discovered. I didn’t expect to find anything, but I did, so in that respect I’m merely the messenger. In the end, it’s how you interpret what you find that’s important.

          I believe you may be right about finding numbers in the books. If you’ve seen OH!’s posts you’ll know he’s spent a long time working on that aspect. The problem is that you need to know how to use numbers, and only the poem tells you that. Simply taking numbers from the books without solving the way in which they have to be used is just to open up another giant rabbit hole, IMO.

          • Vox,
            Yes, using anything gleaned or massaged from the book has to be applied as per Forrest’s intent implied within the poem – ‘implied’ being THE key term and Forrest’s intent a guessing game, at best. The poem has to be centric to a searcher’s solution – in all aspects, IMO.

            My usage of book information is used solely to help confirm my solution, and I use very little due to, as you mentioned, rabbit holes.

            Joe

          • … And I understand the messenger part. I agree completely with your “it’s how you interpret what you find…” comment, and if we stress the word “YOU” in that comment, I think that’s excellent advice.

            Joe

      • Vox –

        Would you be so kind as to enumerate which (past) Blaze got you brimming with excitement for your BOTG trip?

        I think I recall but I don’t want to misrepresent the excitement.

        Thanks!
        Lugnutz

  21. Seeker – I am attempting to find an entry where you asked me to validate a couple of ATF’s which were (in your eyes) contradictory to one another. Do you remember which ones you listed, and’/or do you have some more for me to work on?
    Thanks in advance for the assist.

  22. Yes, Joe, I take your point. Now, as it happens, I’m right in the middle of trying to interpret an on-the-ground find that lies beyond anything I’ve posted thus far. It’s actually the mother of all rabbit holes (almost literally!), involving symbolism that appears innocuous, but could also be interpreted mathematically.

    I’ve already discovered that there is a part of the Chase that points toward a particular mathematical concept of which I had zero knowledge and experience. Fortunately, I didn’t need to know much more than its name and its most basic function, but I don’t think I could have progressed without at least discovering its existence. So, I took that as not requiring any specialized knowledge, because it was simply a question of performing a Google search and interpreting the results in the context of where I was in the field.

    Now, as I approach the end of my Chase, I find myself researching another area of mathematics that has ties to some of FF’s writings, and makes sense in terms of the geographic location, but I’m not certain as to whether I need to interpret it mathematically or not. I did not expect this, and I’m hoping that it is simply a nod to the architectural / geometric patterns at work in the poem, and not something that has to be unpicked. Time will tell.

    • Vox,
      Well, I’m certainly befuddled, but that’s not unusual. The greater the number of searchers totally confused by your statements, the greater the likelihood you’re onto something, IMO. You may be on the path to discovering the missing key – keep digging!

      Joe

      • Joe, I even confuse myself from time to time! My search has been so long and involved that I really do forget parts of it – particularly all the numbers involved.

        You’d need specifics to really understand what I’m talking about, and for obvious reasons those must remain private. But I’m absolutely certain of what I’ve found, and (so far) what it means. Not a shred of doubt in my mind. However, I don’t expect anyone else to accept that at face value.

        • Failure is built into the poem, unrelentlessly.

          Shoot, some folks have gone out 50+ times and then came back with nothing.

          Some have not gone out at all, and continously pursue some place that they can start with….before ever putting BOTG.

          Others, the group I am in, have gone out, tested their search area and observed, went home empty-handed, refined their path, went out again, observed, and went home empty-handed again.

          Each time we improve upon our previous search and the area, for yet another trek out to see failure.

          Why?

          Because eventually we believe we will find that missing detail that not only locks in the zone for us to go out one more third time, but also unlocks the poem for a successful solve.

          Three times is a charm. Three is a lucky number. Three represents the magical….the “All”.

          “Three is the first number to which the meaning “all” was given. It is The Triad, being the number of the whole as it contains the beginning, a middle and an end.”

          http://www.crystalinks.com/numerology2.html

          Good luck to “all.”

          • Hi Tim, I was just wondering, how is the team of people that have gone 50+ times out to search different from your group? They did not observe, or went back and adjusted? I just don’t understand how to make those assumptions? If anything they have done exactly what you claim it works but have 15 times more experience. No?

          • Good question OZ.

            …and this is just my opinion.

            They went hastily. Maybe they didn’t analyze the poem well enough to debunk their solutions.

            I really don’t know, maybe those individuals can tell you the obstacles they kept coming across. Clearly, 50 + obstacles or wrong conclusions, shows me the lack of analyzing each word in the poem, analyzing quotes, those variations to FF’s speak, etc….many many things.

            Maybe they are doing local searches? Okay…fine….but still….that many times to debunk some place is a bit obvious that it probably isn’t correct.

            Then again, did they search the entire area? Maybe or maybe not.

            I’ve only gone twice.

            I have a solution….and will try it out. But I won’t be making as many trips as others. I can’t afford the vacations…..LOL…nor is ABQ in close proximity of my search zone.

            I will do what FF says….not travel to the site in winter time….wait by the fire and let the thaw occur.

            Was that clear?

          • Oops sorry…forgot the other questions.

            I just don’t understand how to make those assumptions?
            – I’m guessing?

            If anything they have done exactly what you claim it works but have 15 times more experience. No?
            Maybe…I have no idea what knowledge another holds.

            I compare what is said to my solve. If it pertains in any way, I try to debunk my solve.
            Of I cannot probability means it is right.

            Statistics also pertain.

            Someone is either right or wrong. If they didn’t prove mine to be wrong, that must make theirs – through possibility – incorrect completely different or the correct solve. But I know a few things that I found, that they probably don’t know or have taken into consideration, but clearly is related to the winning solve. Probability and statistically, their solve is inaccurate.

            Did I think of everything? Did they think of everything? Maybe. Maybe not…..if it can’t be proven wrong, then it is probably right.

            Lets say Detroit is the most evil city in the world. Statistically, this could be said based upon percentage value of people being surveyed. Logically, there are probably worse cities, like Chicago.

            Do you understand my questioning and how it evolves from one source, but if looking at the answers, you have to climb another level in order to see if it is even plausible to be used with the first level, before you can apply it to the level.

            Like I said…they probablyweteover-exvited,withoutpatience, and probably difny analyze the poem well enough.

            Past treasure hunters take their time, investigate, and then act only when surity is used.

            Oh…you can go out and look…isn’t that just surveying the game field before playing?

            Good luck.

          • Tim,

            Like you said, there is no way of knowing if those searchers that have gone over 50 times were even closed. But why those people were not improving upon their previous searches? JDA have been out 15 or 16 times, but how can we say that he is not thinking, analyzing, observing and improving on his previous searches? That is just confusing to me.

            We don’t know if those who were within 200 feet were there just once, 3 times or 50, but again can we say they were not observing, analyzing and doing all those things as well? Don’t forget this happen 3 or 4 years ago, and they went hastily?

            -They didn’t analyze the poem well enough.- That statement it’s something you, me or nobody can say about anyone, not even the armchair searchers, until the treasure chest is found.

          • Okay…we can agree to disagree. We just don’t know.

            IMO – and nonetheless – a solve is as good as the information YOU put into it….and what YOU think FF may have used to formulate the poem.

            I can agree to that much. I’ve done this. You probably did too, because we don’t have the chest.

            Now…as in and for the relationship of facts – of certain places or things that relate directly into FF’s life – well now you have facts connected to places or things….not just coincidence.

            “Assuming/Guessing” that Kit Carson sat on a ledge that Eric Sloane painted, because it has a connection to FF, because it hung in his gallery is still conjecture until proven to be true with hard facts.

            Coincidence? Maybe….until it can be a fact.

            How many facts did these searchers uncover n their searches?

            Or how many times did they just move forward with a connection they made and it only ended up not what may have been utilized by FF.

            That is where they – IMO – hastily moved forward. Of course I don’t know, but they do. I’m not judging any attempts, but analyzing why? I think similar to that like Seeker – in that, too many is too much.

            What facts gave them creedence to even go search?…let alone 50+ times?

            I think they were all rabbit holes. Dal also has seemed to have realized his endeavors locally just didn’t cut it…..didn’t he mention that he has searched something over 80 times?

            That is a lot of times and effort, money etc….to finally realize….”I have to be wrong.”

            I’ve gone twice….how many more times will I need to go, in order to make that same conclusion too? I haven’t scoured my search area, but then again, the area is over 300 miles squared. Do I just give it up and let thousands of seekers embark on this zone.

            Not quite ready to do that…
            Afterall, I haven’t completed my search to say, “it’s not here.”.

            My point being…I can see where your questions are heading, but them thar questions aint helpin’ nobody.

            Analyze the poem for the details it holds. And there are plenty of these types of people out here…you included.

            You know the game….it is a game of cut-throat….like the pirates played….Indiana Jones played, frontiersmen played, trappers played.

            Why aren’t you playing?

            Are you too soft to speak up and voice a possible solve component like I have and others do?

            I’m involved with the game. I will also say, if I am not on your “heavy hitters” list….I should be….I’m playing hardball with thousands upon thousands of players….I either have to think like the best of them….probably engineers and scientists no doubt, but also like the red neck from TX with a boat load of kids.

            I / We….need to play by the rules, otherwise, you will lose. I don’t plan to lose this once in a lifetime opportunity.

            Sorry OZ….that is the way I honestly feel.

            Good luck to you….and to the community….we all see the end game….but in truth, who really wants it to be in there possession?

            *raises hand*

            Exit is on your right for those who need to get back to the freeway.

            You want to up the game a level…..so be it. I just did.

            Cheers OZ.

          • Tim, sorry but I have not been following all your posts so I am not sure what you mean by your solve. Most share what they think the hints outside the poem prove for their solves but nobody has provided a direct connection to clues in the poem. That is fine. 12 clues, 11 blazes? That’s okay too.

            You used Dal as an example cause he has gone over 50 times to search. That means by your definition he is in that group of people who are not thinking, analyzing, observing, not improving on previous searches, on a haste. I have seen some of Dals’ videos and he is very serious about his searches. OK, no chest no glory but was he following only rabbit holes??? You can’t really think that.

            What I am trying to say to you is that most searchers are serious searchers and deep thinkers one way or another. No matter if someone has been out there multiple times or is getting ready to go out for the first time, they are convinced they have a doable solution.

            Three times is the charm, you say. So what will you call your 4th, or your 40th? Confidence is important I know and I hope you find it, but if you don’t will you say you didn’t improve from that last time and so on and so…?

          • Hi OZ.

            Thanks again for responding.

            I probably won’t get a blessing to do more than this third time, unless my wife dies….then i,am free!

            Seriously, I’m similar in thought as Seeker…..I won’t do another trip, unless I can refine or complete the onevsolve I have been working on from the beginning.

            Yep, that is right – only one solve….the only one I’ve used since the beginning, and thus have improved upon it continuously with each susequent visit to the exact same place.

            I’m a forthright kind of guy….I don’t lie. I have been quite open with many things I use with my solve.

            If you had been paying attention, you could very well be searching along side me.

            But alas….”this remote viewing, idiot, hasn’t provided anything worthwhile…”

            I beg to differ.

            Good luck OZ….and yes I know many have searched…I stand by my motivation. I think repeatedly searching an area way more than 10….one should move on. But that is just me.

            I know, I know…if Carter said that, he would have never found Tut….because he spent 7 years in the Valley.

            Okay, point made.

            Is FF that clever…..to truly make one think of an area because it fits so many of the clues?
            But what about the connections to his life.

            I’ve recently uncovered a pattern within the poem. Do I reveal this pattern or not?

            Hmmm….

            Does this pattern affect the outcome of how you think of the poem? It can and does.

            If I am correct in my finding, I should be able to match up each clue to a specific item in the poem….and then read them continuously to validate my final location.

            I’ve already conclusively matched WWWH, CD, hoB, and have a grand idea of what the blaze is. All fit the same pattern.

            I imagine the next clues will too.

            We’ll see if multiple searches or just three can complete the hunt, won’t we?

            Good luck.

  23. This comment is not meant to prove/disprove any solve or possible solve any searcher is contemplating. This also is true as to methodology of any solve.
    I was just curious how folks come to the conclusion that there is “math” involved in the Chase ? I personally have applied different types of “math” to my own theories from early on…to the present. Sometimes it just seems to make some kind of sense given all of the references most every searcher is aware of. Fenn’s stories in his books are loaded with numbers…his ATF are loaded with numbers…even the poem seems inundated with numbers if a person takes into account(pun intended) rhyme/meter, word count, stanza count etc..
    Every time I personally go down that road/rabbit hole/whatever…I get a pesky little knock in the head that reminds me of Fenn’s long winded comment about “…magnetic blah blah, …cubic blah blah…codes, ciphers….” and so on.
    When I really stop and think carefully about it…the word “code” kicks me in the shins every time. In it’s basic form a code is pretty much a substitution game that involves any manner of “encoding” information…whether it be “numbers”, letters, words etc. from one thing to another…which then has to be “decoded” by another…with an agreed upon system or key to work with.
    Right there…I have to stop and reconcile whether this is a “correct” avenue given Fenn’s other ATF that warn not to “mess” with his poem.
    I know…it IS all up to each searcher to decide these things individually…but …any means of substitution technically seems to fit “messing” and/or code breaking of sorts.
    Thoughts?…

    • You don’t need to substitute anything, ken, because you’re not dealing with a code or cipher. You use what’s there. Everything is valuable.

    • Ken – I do not (yet) prescribe to theory that the poem contains numbers, coordinates, etc. I think one has to poetically and/or imaginatively visualize the solve as described in the poem—difficult, but not impossible.

    • Ken. I believe those “chasing” numbers are going the wrong way. My advice is to follow your gut feeling and don’t follow them.

    • Good post, ken. And having done the same, I agree totally with you.

      to answer your question, “I was just curious how folks come to the conclusion that there is “math” involved in the Chase ?”:

      It seems fenn learned something very early on and uses it quite well….”plant a seed and watch it grow!” ….’imagination is more important than knowlege’.
      🙂

      • So is that true of all FF’s seeds/sayings? How do you decide which are red herrings and which are rainbow trout?

        That is why I ignored all the external stuff until my poem solve had crystallized. And that was how I discovered the use of numbers.

        Take it or leave it – at least you can see the evidence from my searches, and decide for yourself. I’m still waiting to see anything concrete from others.

        • Vox – It is hard to subscribe to something that one may not understand (the means/formula/mathematical equation by which you have extracted numbers from the poem, for example), and/or for which one does not have specifics to gain such understanding (the actual numbers gleaned by such method, for example).

          Perhaps the architecture of the poem allows for the same solve via multiple means (numerics for you, keyword for others, etc.).

          I’m not knocking your process and I hope your numbers eventually add up.

          • I fully understand that, Bowmarc. All I can say is that it’s really not hard – nothing that a ten or eleven year old couldn’t manage.

            Trouble is, that I honestly don’t think you can get there without utilizing both elements: words and numbers. They are equally important to me, and I have to pay constant heed to both.

            But as I’ve stated before, I really don’t think that you can make much sense of the numbers until you’ve got WWWH in the bag.

          • So that’s why I can’t nail WWWH down—you’ve got it locked away in a bag! How about letting it out for some air? 🙂

    • Ken,
      I don’t know about anyone else but lets use some ATF’s to see the possibility. Decipher the clues; decipher means; Succeed to understand [ it also means; to decode to normal language ]
      So we have fenn telling us he was the architect of the poem, he crafted and designed the poem, we are to look at the blueprint of the poem. Does any of that ring math/number related?
      I think the term math scares folks because of the advance math and math decoded posting.
      But as you said; we’ve been warn not to mess with the poem { funny how that little ATF is golden, but Blueprint can’t mean math, sure ok }

      Like i said in an earlier post.. it seems many if not all stick with the idea 9 lines hold 9 clues [whether or not hints are in the other or those other 3 stanzas are fluffinutter, doesn’t matter]
      But with that said, any idiot knows there 6 stanzas… seems to me they are important, and nothing seems to be dis-countable.

      While you can’t see numbers involved… they are there. We just don’t know if they are usable.
      For example; not all clues can be places, especially if NFBTFTW is a clue… definitely no number there, right?

      But almost everyone attempts to pull the rabbit out of the hat for that. So the next thought is direction or directional Far to mean right, right? Some even suggested “too far to” meaning 242… That’s a rabbit foot wish imo.

      But there are numbers;
      9 sentences
      6 stanzas
      4 lines per stanza
      24 capital letters… 25 if you count B in brown.
      Each line has word counts
      Each stanza has a total word count or 4 numbers- stanza five for example is 8858.
      etc.
      The numbers are “within” the poem… usable or not is what needs to be figured out.

      Ok with all that crap said;the first two clues solvers [prior to 2013] didn’t know they solved those clues and walked by all the clues… because the never gave the number within the ‘blueprint’ of the poem a chance?
      Or just too stupid to see a canyon in front of them, or all of them made the same wrong turn, or no one knows what the third clue is [ that has kinda been debunk -first 4 clues comment]

      The idea of the KISS method, imo, is not to over react… those number are in the poem and not made up. Don’t attempt to match them to a bible verse, Don’t attempt to use other languages numbers, Don’t use those number to calculate head pressure etc. etc.
      But to dismiss the ATF comments and wording; design, crafted, blueprint, architect wrote the poem?… these ATF’s were not around in the early part of the challenge… Maybe just maybe, it was our job to figure it out.

      The biggest problem I see with the “after the fact” information… many take them for granted,.. as if they already ‘knew’ that WWH is the first clue, or fenn felt like an architect writing the poem, or even it took 15 yrs of work to get it just right. etc. Many of this was not know to those searching in 2010 – 11 – and even 12 or 13 [ some not all ]. OR was stated over in NeverNeverland NZ. lol

      Who here will kick themselves IF numbers of any kind are involved?

      • Heck…I kick myself every time I go down that road and use numbers. Then I kick myself when I get wrapped into a corner with no where to turn!
        I am not discounting cords. or numbers…but right now I see different things in the poem that make more sense. Tomorrow my meds. may take me down another tunnel!
        I still think it is all a cleverly knit use of words that will be the “correct” solve.

        • And yes Seeker…I believe there are “X” number of clue(places)…not nine(9), and then the others are more specific directional “clues”.

  24. If the HoB can’t be a structure, does this include the blaze? I’m pretty sure this may have been discussed over the years. What where the thoughts along this line of thinking?

  25. I don’t believe for a minute that numbers are involved, but that is just my opinion.

    Forrest has said time and time again that you should follow the clues in consecutive order.

    The poem is all you need to find the T.C, don’t mess with his poem.

    I don’t know why people are talking about numbers after all you don’t find letters on the buttons of a calculator.

    Ronnie the Scot

    • Wholly mackerel ! I just about spilled my coffee over the keyboard on that one…
      Speaking of “this” keyboard…there are some buttons on here that look kinda’ like….nah.

    • Hi Ronnie: there are letters on *my* calculator — but that’s because it allows computations in hexadecimal. 😉

      • And if you don’t mind a little irony:

        “I don’t believe for a minute that numbers are involved…”
        How about 60 seconds?

        “Forrest has said time and time again that you should follow the clues in consecutive order.”
        You mean like 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9?

        “The poem is all you need to find the T.C, don’t mess with his poem.”
        You mean don’t mess with the 6 stanzas, 9 sentences, 9 clues, 24 lines, 166 words?

        Just teasin’. 😉

      • “..tO NEver” …is a word or is it a number? It could be both. Are the words “To never” formed buy the intended use of numbers to create these two words? In writing ,there are 3 forms of input to compose a communication: letters forming words, numbers/math and geometric shapes/ drawings, pictures( a form). You can add more using combinations of the core 3. As simple ink dot on the page can be seen as being one of all three combined . A dot( word), one dot( number) and . ( as a form). The number one ( word), 1 ( number) and 1( as a form).

        It seems all three can be used to create and figure something out. I dunno, a number seems useless without a word before or after ,a word is representing something and a form is a word because it is something.

        I’ll go with using words as a guide to the poem solving practice. Numbers are there to count molecules in the air . Lol. IMO .

        Just an added opinion.

  26. Forrest Fenn on February 18, 2016 at 2:02 pm said:
    Spoon, “If person had the correct GPS coordinates they could find the chest.” Physics says this has to be true. How can it not be? The key word here is “correct.”
    (word that is key is “key”, the ‘key” is Forrest Fenn)
    I believe the actual comment Forrest made was back in 2011, February, but going by memory. The comment of if you had the coordinates.

    Forrest,
    Just cause you will probably get a laugh…i spent hours last night with those numbers below…i added them, multiplied them, found a pattern, try latitudes, hardshad #, morse code, applied it to the alphabet, searched zip codes, elevations, phone codes etc…dreamt of numbers and woke up this morning and said. If Hegben was that deep it would reach China and have a drainage hole, all the water would leak out and if you did plunk it at Hegbens depth then I could just walk around and find it. Giggles.

    Here’s a lady who may find the treasure because she has done the math and knows exactly where it is. f

    So if you do the math, you will know exactly where it is.

    It’s hard to get by these comments by f without numbers. It’s very difficult to find something well hidden out in the wild by just going left here, right here, then straight ’till you find. How far? how many steps? how big of steps? To not have a number system is a fools way to find this chest. Somewhere, you will need numbers. F is just as much familiar with numbers as he is with words.

    The problem is since there is no “X” in the poem, people dismiss that numbers can be part of the letters. If you don’t have one, then all is wrong type of thinking. So, they refuse to see what the poem is telling them. The thing is that if you stick it out, and see the letters in the poem that seem to be given values by Fenn, you will find in the end that “X” could actually be any number 1-9.
    The simple fact of “X” = 9 should be obvious anyway. 24th letter. (2+4=6) Mirror “six”. xisix. That’s not how you find “X”, just an example.
    The math is simple in my opinion. A straight right triangle. It’s formed from the “Indiana Jones in the map room thought”, stand up a rod(“Y” shaped), the sun’s light hits it at a given angle, and you get a shadow of a certain distance. That’s about the extent of the math I’ve seen. The poem is worded in a way that leads to the realization that when the numbers are used, it’s obviously coordinates. It even hints at what the seconds could be, straight up. The word “secret”. The book has hints in the text that confirm these numbers. Even the pic on page 57. This pic is obviously doctored, turn it upside down and look at Skippy. What does he look like? look in the middle of Skippy, what does that look like? Moronic answers aside, it’s obvious.
    I’ve said it since I started this and have not seen any reason to change the thought that a number system will be needed. If you don’t have one, well, it’s winter, you have time to try something new. If you want to discount the possibility, then thank you for making the competition a little a little less likely. Anybody want to bow out, have at it, don’t look for numbers. Your choice.

    • Charlie,
      We realy have to be careful of the e-mails intent, even when fenn has them posted… example, around the same time…

      I have figured out there is no treasure.  This is a medical study being done by Dr. Fenn concerning the use of riddles to help delay the effects of Alzheimers Disease.
      We are the case study to prove his theory that by doing riddles helps your ability to keep your mind healthy.  This will soon be published in the PubMeds that are available to all doctors.  The population at large will only get a brief overview of the complete study, which will more then likely not help much.
      Looking forward to receiving your memoir, researching has been a lot of fun for my son and me.  He is very excited about our trip.  Which I think will be in June for 2 weeks.
      I am concerned about one thing about the quest, should I carry a firearm (as laws permit)?  Its more to do with safety with wildlife there, then protecting from other people.  But I guess that wouldn’t be a bad idea either.
      Hope all is well
      Bruce-
      I hid the treasure chest at the first onset of dementia. I knew I had a disease so I made myself a note that revealed the exact location because I wanted later on to give some additional clues. Now I don’t remember where I put the note. Maybe if I search my fishing box I can find what it is that I was looking for. But why would I want to fish in this weather? I’ll go ask my wife Phyllis where my tool kit is.

      LOL some folks ran with the Dementia thing for a bit… not unlike the safety deposit box idea from long ago and not far away. But I have been always curious to why fenn posted “giggles’ e-mail… helpful hint or a laughable thought… zip codes, phone number, etc. BUT some were of elevation points and Letters… lol… Soooo

      End of weird commentary…

      • Yes Seeker, I remember the ‘elevation” posts. I think Colokid was voicing his opinion on that subject. Something with the if you had the coordinates why would you need elevation. But, I found the Giggles email also kind of, say, out of place. But I can’t dismiss what he responded with. May be nothing, or may be a confirmation. Those with math and numbers in the chase will say it’s confirmation. Like me.
        But I’ve learned to live and die by the poem. I guess when the “new” start to argue about what has been exhaustingly discussed already, I find myself throwing out things f has said to, at the least, help those who may not know. What a nice guy, lol, yea right.

        Like this email:
        Hi I’m Melody,
        I am so excited about the book the Thrill of the Chase! I ordered the book yesterday and it should come on friday. I read all about the treasure in the January 2013 Hemisphere magazine on an air plane, and i asked my dad if we could take a trip out to the mountains. He said yes!!!!!! I have been waiting my whole life for an adventure like this! Well at least the past 2 years for an opportunity like this one!!
        Happy trails,
        I am glad you are interested in the adventure. It should be fun for your whole family. Please keep me informed about where you are going and when, and my spirit will tag along with you. f

        Does f believe in the “spirit world”? Maybe it’s a hint to actually finding a bell. IDK, but you are right, take the emails with a grain of salt. In fact, a lot of his ATF comments, we can’t just pick and choose. Just because someone doesn’t know why a butterfly is a flutterby shouldn’t be a reason to discount their whole solve. We could discount their solves just because nobody really knows what they’re talking about. I try to see my solve now as, could I come up with all this? For what I have, did I fabricate it and make it fit? From what I see, I’m just not smart enough to have come up with what I got. 7 years or not, I would have never even considered it. No way my mind comes up with these letter values the way they were presented. Is that good, IDK, all I know is that when my girlfriend and I are out there, in isolation, and when we don’t find the chest, who cares, nobody around, lol, it’s party time. It’s just the walk sucks…

      • Seeker, your atrocious typing skills have finally come back to bite you. The irony of you starting your post with “We realy (sic) have to be careful…” when you were anything but in your 5:40 pm post. Short story: NO QUOTATION MARKS! That means what followed was YOURS. (Yes, any veteran knows that you wouldn’t be so stupid as to start a paragraph with “I have figured out there is no treasure.” That is a sure fire way to get the boot from Dal or Goofy.) But I had to laugh when you wrote that without quotation marks attributing it to someone else. If I had done that I would have been put on moderation.

    • Perhaps it is this wisdom that will be second only to the Blaze. The sound the word wisdom makes , almost could be harmonized oxymoronic.

      Happy hunting!

    • Charlie…you have been one of the folks that have said “numbers” since…well for ever. Six or so years I guess. The numbers game must not work any better than the word game…because nobody seems to be very close. I have to give you a lot of credit for sticking to your guns!
      Any ways…that’s not my point…Fenn has been very prolific over the years. One thing for sure is…one never knows what he’s going to throw out there next ! His silverware drawer…closet or bathroom shots…emails from folks…safety tips. We have seen and heard ALOT ! I like the stories about the cool items he has collected best…or items in the chest.
      Fenn seems adept at mixing his stories and replies with little added twists that provoke searchers to question or seize it as a piece of the puzzle. It has been interesting!
      Your “Giggles” mail was one that I am sure a lot of folks ran hard with at the time…I just saw it as another attempt from Fenn showing how convoluted things were getting despite his warnings of straight forward thinking. I believe Fenn’s comment …was saying…there, she wore out all the math possibilities and took it to the extreme. Now she can move on and really find the treasure.
      I can say the same back at you Charlie…convert your numbers back to words…and read the poem for directions to the treasure. Good competition is the key to success.

      • Hi Ken.

        “Good competition is the key to success.”

        …you can take it one more step…..

        “The student will eventually overcome the Master.”

      • Ken, in some certain spots, the numbers do go back to words. From what I have, 2 and 4 do that very thing.
        Here’s an easy one. The poem proves the “book of days”. A basis for his stories, remember. Okay, support info for maybe having the correct clues and the correct key would be the “book of days”. Simply put, the correct clues and key will get you the chest. The chest use to hold a “book of days”, but now holds the treasure. So, just add up your clues and key to get your “book of days”.
        1st stanza = 0
        2nd stanza = lines 5 and 6
        3rd stanza = line 9
        4th stanza = lines 13 and 16
        5th stanza = lines 17 and 20
        6th stanza = lines 22 and 24.
        key line = 9..
        These are my clue lines(the path to the chest), and the line that has the key. Add them up, down to basic form. So,
        stanza 1 = 0
        stanza 2 = 5+6=11, 1+1=2
        stanza 3 = 9
        stanza 4 = 13+16=29, 2+9=11, 1+1=2
        stanza 5 = 17+20=37, 3+7=10, 1+0=1
        stanza 6 = 22+24=46, 4+6=10, 1+0=1
        key = 9
        So, you have: 0,2,9,2,1,1,+ 9 or,
        29220. That is exactly the amount of days in 80 years. 366×60 and 365×20.
        Is this reading the poem for directions? no, Is this coincidence? IDK, maybe. If f did do something like this, it may give a searcher confidence that he/she has the right clues and key. Maybe the clues could be added vertically.
        1st – 0
        2nd- 5 6
        3rd- 9
        4th- 13 16
        5th- 17 20
        6th- 22 24
        total=66 66, 6+6+6+6= 24
        1st- 0
        2nd- 1 1
        3rd- 9
        4th- 2 9
        5th- 3 7
        6th- 4 6
        total- 19 23 = 42
        2442 = 66= FF.
        Is this finding numbers in the poem? Not a number system, but could be good support info. If anybody found this in their solve they would be on cloud 9.
        Especially if the coordinates they have, when added and subtracted together gives them a 4 digit number. 2442.
        The poem isn’t written to turn the numbers back to words and then get directions. You can say it back to me, but has no weight. The numbers open up the poem. There are many examples of support info to an alpha numeric system. When used back in the poem, coordinates show up because there is nothing else they could be. Those coordinates have back up info in the book. Those coordinates have one way in to get there. The path clues will be on your route. Starting spot is easily proven through the ATF comments, and the poem. The third clue will be obvious when you see it. The blaze cannot be seen, but can be figured out. What you will see is marvel gaze. “Y”, is there, then you have a direction, certain amount of feet, the coordinates, and then a date, time, and distance to the spot. The end of his “22 degree” rainbow. This is not how you solve the poem, but is a way to look at numbers.
        It also is not the number system, f has given the alphabet his own numeric values, all from the poem, and poem only. It took a long time to figure out the values. Maybe that is why most don’t want to try and solve for them. I think if there is any questions, the searcher should try and answer them. Why is a butterfly a flutterby? Easy, b=fl.
        The number you get when you add the values, Forrest Fenn = pages in the book. Why his rainbow at 22 degrees, the first letters in the first line of the poem tell you what clue 3 is, so much support info for whoever wants to look.
        Everyone could dismiss numbers all they want. The simple truth is that numbers are the best back up to the clues and the only real thing that can stand the test of time. I really do not see how a logical person is going to go in the forest looking for a treasure without the support of numbers. How far? How many paces? If the whole forest burns down, what is the only thing then that a searcher can use. NUMBERS.

        • Charlie…good write up…and well thought out. Trust me when I say that what I said is of no consequence. No judgment involved…or intended. I just see it different. We can agree to just be searchers and hope that someone does what needs to be done to get this poem cracked and the treasure “retrieved”. Numbers have been a large part of my life…and I respect what you are doing….I’m just not taking that road. Good wishes to you and yours for the Holidays….and good luck.

        • Charlie,
          Not trying to judge you approach. It’s certainly plausible that numbers play a part.
          But, after rereading this post three times, I’m pretty lost. Seems like a lot going on here. You’ve described a hypothetical method of extracting numbers, talked about ‘path clues’, talked about pages in the book, talked about times and dates, talked about coordinates, and much more.

          “Those coordinates have back up info in the book. Those coordinates have one way in to get there. The path clues will be on your route. Starting spot is easily proven through the ATF comments, and the poem. The third clue will be obvious when you see it. The blaze cannot be seen, but can be figured out.”
          So we are still ‘seeing’ things that will be obvious, and ‘figuring things out’ even though we have these numbers? Where’s the advantage of the number here? I’m missing a key concept. And “…. Those coordinates have one way in to get there..”. Are you following a path of coordinates or a path derived from word clues? Didn’t you say in a different post that you are still stuck repeatedly searching a rather large tract of land?

          Again, the lure of numbers, math, and, more specifically coordinates, seems to be wanting to know some thing (or place) in a absolute sense….GPS coordinates to follow right to the box. So I guess my confusion is exactly where is the added value of the numbers in this example? If a coordinates path is there than why not just go retrieve the chest? If the numbers are just supporting the clues than are you still stuck (like the rest of us) interpreting what the clues mean (word-wise) to create a visual ‘clue path’? If the numbers don’t get you all the way there, where is the precise and absolute confidence everyone wants to have?

          “The simple truth is that numbers are the best back up to the clues and the only real thing that can stand the test of time. I really do not see how a logical person is going to go in the forest looking for a treasure without the support of numbers. How far?” Numbers just ‘back-up’ , ‘supporting info’, or necessary?

          LOL, sounds like someone’s been down the hall at the philosophy department ferreting out the ‘truth’. Just kidding ya there, but seriously, ‘can’t see how someone can go into the forest ….without the support of numbers’? Surely everyone at sometime in their life has gotten driving directions in a strange town that didn’t include numbers.
          Wild example- Drive down canyon road, look for the sculpture of the brown bear, turn left and go until you hit the end of the road, and look for the burning bush. Sure this isn’t a time durable example but no numbers, just visual landmarks.

          Just curious.

          • Kid, for me, I see the poem as instructions, in the words, the words themselves, the letters, all telling what to do per line. Some lines can be broken down many different ways. After, lets say, the first pass, breaking down the lines this way, there are a couple things that stick out that tell me there are numerical values to the letters. F gave the letters values. He doesn’t give all the values, I would say half. To me, in first thought, that would be a “no-go” in thinking that the letters are a number system. But, then I realize these initial values, (lets say A=7), if you take them forward and backwards of that value, you get secondary letters. (in the case of A=7, that would be T and H). Then noticed that these secondary values maybe equal each other. So, if A=7, then T=H. So, now that half of letters that the poem gave could be used to solve the whole thing. Except “X”. It turns out that “X” can equal any number 1-9. I use 9. Because then I add these primary values and get 80, these secondary values equal 57. So, there is my number system. And it works out many different ways. Okay, so, going back over the poem, these letter values used in what seems to be obvious places, yield coordinates. Other places they give time, date, and distance. Now, going back through the poem, a nice flow is seen where the lines that you have solved shows just one correct path. At least that’s what I get. I’ve been BOTG so I could now see the path to take. The coordinates only go as far as the 8th clue. The 9th clue gives a time and a distance, the key gives a date, and what fits is a sun’s elevation. At coordinates, Indiana Jones in the map room. 7′ stick shaped as a “Y”, at the date and time, that the sun’s elevation coincides with, yields a shadow. Ade etc…..
            The numbers only go so far, what I posted above is just little things I have noticed that may have possibly been done by Fenn, confidence gainer. That’s why I say that the poem puts you within 1 foot of the chest. Solving the poem this way, now I could look at a map or whatever and see where I’m going. There are subtle things around that give you confidence that the numbers are right. The numbers don’t figure all the clues. In fact, looking back, the 7th clue is a distance in feet, the 8th clue(with other info) finishes off your coordinates. The 9th clue is a time and a distance in feet. There’s the numbers. The clues really don’t matter in the end, just the last one. You can’t solve for wwwh, not until you have the chest. People could go there but not know what it is. The second clue will be some sort of canyon nearby, but no name is given, but you already know your path. The coordinates. The 3rd clue cannot solve for, but on your way to the coordinates, you will know. (a possible hint would be the first letters of the first line, A,I,H,G,A,I,T). To answer your question Lug, A,I,H equals 3. So, 3 gait. The 3rd clue, FOR ME, happens to be a no trespassing gate. (I know, legal comments abound, but really, everyone local goes passed it, in fact, I got a ride back from some cops one trip out there and we laughed about the gate). The 4th clue is the blaze. An outside source gave me it’s coordinates, but as the poem goes, you cannot know what the blaze is. Marvel gaze, yes, blaze, no.
            Kid, I know that we could come up with a way to not use numbers and just go by: Drive down canyon road, look for the sculpture of the brown bear, turn left and go until you hit the end of the road, and look for the burning bush. But we both know the poem isn’t written that way. There are no landmarks in the poem.
            Anyway, that’s how I see the numbers. They fit all situations, and I’m just not smart enough to have come up with them and have them work out. But, there was no looking for numbers from the start, I just wanted to solve each line, follow it’s instructions, and go from there. It’s just, the poem yielded numbers. So, here they are:
            A=7, B=2, C=3, D=1, E=3, F=1, G=3, H=2, I=3, J=1, K=3, L=1, M=3, N=2, O=3, P=1, Q=3, R=1, S=3, T=2, U=7, V=1, W=7, X=9, Y=7, Z=1.
            Use the values to confirm: A=7 so T=H=2, etc….Of course, they do no good except for some certain instances, unless you solve for the poem and see where to use them. I just post them so if anyone wants. And again, this is just how I see the poem.
            If a coordinates path is there than why not just go retrieve the chest? If the numbers are just supporting the clues than are you still stuck (like the rest of us) interpreting what the clues mean (word-wise) to create a visual ‘clue path’? If the numbers don’t get you all the way there, where is the precise and absolute confidence everyone wants to have?

            I’m not going out there in the snow, lol. Just kidding. No Kid, I’m not really stuck. Totally confident within one foot. But I’m not the one and done type, we know the rules. I’m not going to say I’m right, I can’t. I reserve that right. But confident, a lot of times over.

            Didn’t you say in a different post that you are still stuck repeatedly searching a rather large tract of land?

            Nope, don’t think so. That sounds like JDA, lol. Like everything else, even with all the confidence, in reality, who knows, probably not, we’ll see. I guarantee I won’t come back and say someone must have found or it’s been moved.
            Sorry for the long post but at work, getting paid to post. :).

        • Charlie ×

          What are the first letters in the first line pointing to?

          Others have said Isa Lake. As I = Isa

          What are you saying?

          Lugnutz

  27. It reeks of sarcasm when FF says “she’s done the math, she’ll find it”

    What doesn’t reek of sarcasm is when he said (paraphrasing): The person who makes all the lines cross in the right place will find the treasure.

    And just what lines would those be? Lines on a map or lines in the poem?

    • Well, you may have a point, James. After I ran out of fingers and toes, I was stuck until I took that online degree. Whereas, I had no problem with words. I sprang from my mother’s womb crying with lusty lungs:
      “TELL ME WHERE THE GOLD IS, DAMMIT!!!”

  28. Sorry guys,

    Nobody will solve the poem and find the T.C based on numbers.

    Find the nine names to the nine clues in consecutive order and you find the T.C.

    Clues1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8. 9 doesn’t tell you anything.

    You may as well say the following;

    100110111000011110011010010001100000

    Ronnie the Scot

    • Ronnie the Scot,
      Seem dismissal of the WhatIFs is easy to do. Even the methodology that folks adhere to is one dimensional thought.
      It’s all numbers, or it all places, there needs to be 9 places, or it all names, or it’s all point by point stomping, or you have to have 10 20 30 searchers in the same place to find it, or pictures and illustrations over text in the book, or my favorite fenn only tells 85% of the truth 100% of the time [ or when it seem only convenient at the time ].

      Is there no mixture in thoughts. No imagination of possibilities… that a process that took over 20 years to finalize might as some of all involved. It’s how far a person goes to with any idea and method is more of a problem than IF there is some kinda numbers involve.. The fact is very simple… there is one fenn gave us to start with “9” the question is, are there others to be discovered?

      End of commentary…

      • Hey Seeker…
        Your mixture of thoughts idea is interesting…and seems playful enough to maybe fit Fenn’s active imagination. What kind of ratio/mixture do you have in mind?
        Yesterday I was taking the hard line on the “places” and “clues”…after all…each of Fenn’s comments are a matter of interpretation, one not easily reconciled considering the wide range of inconsistency. Today…the soft…4-5 place stand.
        What’s with your insistence of the #9 being overly significant all of a sudden? Is it the T Point? Don’t get me wrong…I played with that puppy for a long time and still can’t totally bury it. I tried quite a few scenarios using 3(three) determined references in some of my better areas. Nothing seemed to go as planned. Any ideas?

        • ken,
          9 is not all of the sudden for me.
          We knew this from the start. Like I said before, many think only three stanzas hold clues… ok, sure. That kinda makes 9 lines as clues, right? …ok, sure. But that doesn’t say all 9 clues are places, nor does that explain why there are 6 stanzas when supposedly 3 would be all that is needed… Why are there 4 lines per stanza? I have seen poems with 6…

          Even after fenn says every word is deliberate and shouldn’t be discounted, virtually every solve idea, theory posted only involves 3 stanzas. I mean, did we need an intro to the poem, in the poem, [ as some suggest stanza 1 is ] when the book intro the poem itself?
          IDK what or if there’s a ratio, but a simple example of three location can make a triangulation, right?
          Can being “wise” and “found” the blaze be the point within that calculation?
          Solve the three locations [ and not location clues ] and you’ve been wise to do the math found it?

          Some one else posted the other day [ it not a new idea but seemingly an accurate thought ]. Begin at wwwh – a place. Is take it in the canyon down not far but too far to walk telling us of a place to go? The only real reference of the next place is hoB. That’s two places in supposedly 4 clues.
          From there no meek the end no paddling ~ any of that tell of a place? Not really.
          But, “just’ heavy loads and water high do indicate a place.. @ water high
          Three place for a triangulation to work with.

          What are we to be wise about?

          • Maybe …not all of a sudden…but more so since the math/numbers threads of recent.
            My early take on the “triangulation” using “wise” and “found” made sense because I was reading it as having been clever/alert that the searcher had to build/construct/use a premise/principle(found) to determine the triangulation….previous to that was three places…my third was water high. No go for that particular area in my solve. Could work in the correct area….

      • wait a minute seeker…. are you turning the corner and now saying there “might” be more than 9 ??? you said, “The fact is very simple… there is one fenn gave us to start with “9” the question is, are there others to be discovered?”

        sure sounds like it!

    • The 9 clues have meaning look at the clues in numbers they add up as. ”
      2=1 how does 2=1 in the clues it doesn’t in math
      theres a understanding. On how you come up with 2=1.

  29. Off subject a little…just confirming that the nigh side of THE creek would be the left side as you are facing downstream. Is this correct? I read in one of the Lewis and Clark or Journal of a Trapper books (a footnote) to confirm this I believe…

    • Nigh = left has been a longtime theory…a quick google shows you that usage of the word ‘nigh’ peaked in 1865, minor peak in 1900 and lo and behold another peak in 2011…interesting. Personally, IMO, I think it is more straight forward…the END is ever drawing nigh…now just need to know the end of what? Good luck

    • By my understanding Yes. The direction to determined left or right bank is facing down stream. But i wonder if we were in England, would it be the opposite?

  30. Imo, I still don’t understand how searchers who believe numbers/gps are involved with the correct solve can’t seem to figure out there’s other ways to provide incredibly accurate location information through the use of words in a poem such as f’s.

      • Vox…At this stage…most folks have their weapon of choice(numbers/words) at the ready…but…I really can’t see how either is “working” out too well.
        Nothing is really “working” until that bronze chest is sitting in someone’s car taking a nice ride!

        • Ha! ken, I was waiting for that. That’s why I used the word “appear.”

          Yes, the proof of the pudding… etc.

          But, I doubt there’s many that would abandon their method mid-stream for some other system, unless someone could show beyond reasonable doubt that another method would bear more fruit. So far, I’ve seen nothing that would encourage me to change course.

          • I did see your “appear” and immediately thought….well…”disappear”. It’s all good Vox ! This Chase is too fun to really get all riled up about any aspect. I just appreciate the amount of effort that is being put forth and truly wish someone cracks it open in my lifetime. You are a good guy Vox…

          • Hi vox…..there is another.

            This should help many.

            In the poem, I’ve uncovered a pattern of adventure.

            Can someone actually fill this pattern with their imagination…..or will it last a long time? FF is hoping for the latter.

            What can I say about the pattern, as you and others may be wondering.

            It is based upon adventure…..a love for an adventure…..that requires you to find your own personal treasure in the adventure.

            Observe, act, listen, think. Think about yourself and the adventures you have dreamed.

            If Forrest is listening or peeking in….I would think that he too would agree with this.

            Nine clues
            Nine adventures
            Nine points of notariety

            The poem was to be everlasting, as I have previously written about.

            FF ensures the poem will be, so he made it so it will not only last for many years, but also those references he uses, they too will also last through the annual of time and history.

            He doesn’t want us to forget…..and we won’t.

            He did well.

    • Fundamental Design,
      Some don’t even bother with numbers at all, even when fenn gives them…
      Searchers solved the first to clues and walked by everything else.
      Yet there’s 10 miles between some clues in searchers posted theories, and others from one state to another… even when fenn gave us a parameters to work with:
      1. He followed the clues to hide the chest.
      2. He “walked less than a ‘few miles”
      3. Made “two trips” and tells us to be able to walk “several hours in two trips” to “our solve” and he did it in “one afternoon.”

      Do you see the numbers working here? or does fenn have to be more precise for numbers to be thought about.
      I’m not being sarcastic… but it seems fenn has laid out the size of the blueprint… we just need to read it correctly. If those numbers don’t help to keep a theory from being blown out of proportion, I don’t know what does.

      Yep, I know. Those are ATF’s. But that doesn’t mean wording or the structure [ layout ] of the poem doesn’t have numbers or counts related.
      LOL, some of the folks here have posted they don’t believe numbers could possibly be involve, yet many of those same folks counted tree stump or stamps, or stars, or dates on stamps etc. I think that’s funny… but that’s just me.

      End of commentary…

      • Hi Seeker: a correction to a misinterpretation that I’ve seen you post a few times:

        “… and tells us to be able to walk “several hours in two trips” to “our solve” ”

        That is not what Forrest wrote. Your statement implies a ~requirement~ to walk several hours in two round trips to the treasure chest. Forrest has placed no minimum on how long it should take you; he’s only placed a maximum. He’s in essence saying that if your solution will take you MORE than several hours to complete two trips to the treasure chest, your solution is wrong — your route is too long.

        • Zap…Seeker has been alluding to that for a while now…and it does stretch the limit of what I believe Fenn meant. However…at this point everything is kind of hypothetical and hazy…still important.

        • Hi ken — I agree that there are many things about the Chase that are “hazy,” but I think Forrest’s remarks about travel time and distance are pretty clear. He is trying to prevent people from making foolishly long trips into the wilderness.

          “A polite-like email from Kristie, who admits to being a desk person, prompts me to say that if you are walking long distances in search of the treasure, you’re walking too far. f”

          • Sorry Zap, gotta say it. If the poem tells us “not far” but “too far to walk”, then if ha says anywhere “walking to far”, isn’t that what the poem is telling us? Not far but “too far to walk”. Now if you are walking “long distances” then aren’t you doing what the poem told you to do, “Walking too far”?
            Again, the poem tells us that it’s not far to walk we are looking for, but it’s too far to walk we are looking for.And, if you are walking long distances to the treasure, then you are walking what you need to walk, according to the poem. He is not trying to prevent people from making foolishly long trips into the wilderness. He’s telling us that we have a long walk ahead of us. Because walking long distances is walking “too far”, and according to the poem, straight forward, that’s what we are looking for. You can put your spin on it all you like, and believe he’s trying to say one thing or another, but it says what it says. Straight forward…

          • Charlie >
            It’s metaphorical.

            It doesn’t mean distance at all. It’s about effort, you actually realized this for a second when you said We have a long walk ahead. It’s metaphor for difficulty or strain, physical or mental.

            Try to think of his words in this manner.

            These are opinions
            Lugnutz

          • I’m sorry, charlie, but your thinking on the “walking long distances” is actually the more “twisted” view of Forrest’s words, not my rather straightforward interpretation. Your interpretation does not jive with Forrest’s simple, declarative statement: “If you can’t make two trips from your car to your solve in several hours, then don’t go.” I don’t know how far you can walk in several hours, but by no reasonable interpretation is that going to be a long distance.

          • Charlie… let me be the odd ball with you… I agree with your logic on the “too far” and I agree with your reasoning… but I can reason it the other way too. some will say it 3 miles or less but I’m in the slightly more group myself. 3.1 miles to be exact…. but is that ‘TOO FAR”? fits both scenarios now doesn’t it!

            nobody on here has the chest so think as you may and see if it works out in your favor

          • I’m trying to Lug, but the poem keeps telling me “not far”, BUT “too far”. So, when I see “too far” in something f says, it can easily be associated with whatever it is that we need to be or have “too far”. In this case, it’s walking.
            Zap, not twisted, just stating what it says. I think you read it the same. Not far, right? Too far, right? Since it is walking, and he flat out says walking long distances is walking TOO FAR, then perfect. If he said walking long distances you are walking FAR, then I could easily say you are right, putting walking long distances with FAR would be a big “NOT”. (you’re walking far if you are walking long distances). This then would tell me that walking long distances is wrong. But, that is not the case. How have I twisted anything? I’m reading what it says. I need to walk ‘too far”. Says that right in the poem. No twisting. He then associates walking too far with walking long distances. How am I twisting it? You are twisting it when you put a distance to the whole thing. You are taking ATF comments and merging them to fit a distance. You are taking another ATF that can also be read in a different way and getting a fictional distance. I’m using the poem and matching it to 1 ATF comment that is associated with it by it’s wording.
            If I take two trips to hide the chest, and I’m done in the one trip that was after noon, where does that say I started at 12:00p.m.? It just says that I am done in the one trip that was after noon. How can you get a distance from that, the poem, and the other ATF that you used? I can very easily see:
            1.- I take two trips to hide the chest
            2.- I am done in the one trip that was after noon.
            3.- not far, BUT, too far. So I am looking for something “too far”.
            4.- walking long distances is walking “too far”
            I am not putting a distance or anything on that, just stating what f is saying. What if long distances pans out to be 1 mile, are you going to say then that it’s right? Too much of “your” interpretation is what I see, so I post. You had on your list a certain distance. I just don’t see that. Walking a mile or two up a mountain with forest is a long distance to walk to me, maybe not to somebody else though. Putting a distance on your interpretation is just simply, wrong, not twisted…

          • charlie: you’re making this much harder than it is. I know you *think* you are reading the poem normally, but your reading is very non-standard. It doesn’t mean it’s wrong, but only 1 person out of 100 would read it the way you are.

            “Take it in the canyon down, Not far, but too far to walk.”

            The simplest, most straightforward reading of this sentence is: head down the canyon. You don’t have that far to go (in the grand scheme of things) but it’s far enough that you shouldn’t be walking it — especially with 20+ lbs on your back. That, in my opinion, is the sensible way to read those instructions.

        • FF”s quote; “If you can’t make two trips from your car to your solve in several hours, then don’t go.”

          Your right Zap, that the quote is different in wording than what I placed… My intent was the same though. “Can’t” walk to “Able” to walk, doesn’t give any required distance in either usage fenn’s or mine. But I can see how you could have read my post as such.

          Although we still have to keep in mined… this is not a stand alone comment.
          fenn has given parameters to work with; Less than a few miles that he walked.
          in one afternoon. made two trips, tells us we should be able to or if we can’t stay home, [same difference in my book] because we need to follow the clues, and fenn stated he did so when he hid the chest.
          I can put up all the exact quote if ya like… and we can compare them.

          It all seems to imply we are to match what fenn did when he hid the chest, to what we have as a solve and do the same.

          We can nickle and dime ‘each comment’ over the ‘long span of time’ it took for those comments to be presented… but, what we have to do now is, seeing/reading those comments as a whole.

          Agree? if not I’m more than willing to hear your points…

          • Hello Seeker. I believe the “less than a few” miles continues to give searchers to wonder what exactly does it imply? In totality? One trip up and back? Something different? I’m curious to know what others think.

        • Hi Seeker: as with most of Fenn’s ATF comments, we really can only use his time and distance figures to kill bad solutions; they don’t specify what the correct answer is. For instance, I think you’d agree that 5 miles walking one way is a non-starter. Or 1000 feet of one way elevation gain. And at the other end of the spectrum, I think if the distance from your car to your proposed treasure chest location is less than 100 feet, your “solve” is probably in trouble. The right answer lies somewhere between these extremes.

          • Correct means absolute.
            So far nothing is absolute.
            I know what your saying. But what I’m emphasizing, as I have tried to in the past, working with one comment or even two doesn’t really give any ‘answers’ to any thought, but what does appear is to be a pattern of correctness.

            Fenn’s finally answered a question related to; ‘ did he have to follow the clues like we do, or just go to the hide because he knew where it was ‘

            You know the quote… He did.

            He didn’t say some of the clue or even used the term all of the clues… However, we know there are 9 [from 2010 ] because he told us there are, he said he followed the clues [ 2016 or 17?]… so he followed the clues -9 of them- as he told us we need to do.

            If we don’t add all the after the facts together in the attempt to logically understand what happened, and what we need to guide us… we will keep dissecting only the comments we like that work with our little solves the way we hope they should pan out.
            Example; fenn never said ALL the clues, so we can skip wwwh and go directly to the last closest clue to the chest.

            If you don’t want several hours, twice, to give an appox. possible, overall distance to logically work with… that ok… but IF you dismiss all the comment known on the topic… you’re only fooling yourself.

            Loco said something tot the fact the fenn planted a seed and lets it grow.
            whether that seed imo was deliberated or not… it does seem we take some comments and grow Colorado Gold from it.
            I wonder if fenn simply said; from the start it took me one afternoon to walk twice, less than a few miles to the hide. Would anyone have driving involved in there solutions between clues? add two trip from my car… and we have 10 and 20 or miles involved ONLY for that word “car”

            If folks want to believe this, fine. I’m looking to chat with some folks that might use common sense in what we know of and work with it to the poem… even if there are still wholes to be filled from what we don’t know or have little to work on… such as four clues solved, but not sure.
            LOL that’s almost 1/2 the poem… but yet fenn doesn’t know if the searchers understand they do?

            I’m going on a holiday break… ya’ll have fun.

          • Darn! Couldn’t cancel the reply button quick enough before I saw my error.

            ‘I’d like to wish you and yours a very Merry Christmas.’

          • Seeker & Other searchers,

            The 3rd line in Stanza #2 NFBTFTW is where as Kenn says, the trip wires start (he didn’t title his 2nd book this for nothing) but to provide some clarity to everyone, I’ll give you this:

            Forrest personally, once walked 90 miles in a single trip from Lake Hegben to Bozman, MT. and further any distance on land can be “in theory” covered by walking. However, “in practice” we build roads to assist us in covering certain distances using vehicles like “Sedans.”

            Forrest says we should read his poem and then “marry” it to a map. This line on an interpretive level is intended to signal that on the right map, at the correct location from WWWH – the path or route “your” looking for is a vehicle route on the literal level of the poem…

            Merry Christmas,

            GCG

  31. Jams & Company,

    Past post have discussed ideas address this concept of specialized knowledge, esoteric information and its counterparts “deep thinking” and “logical.”

    Here is another entry from my Forrest Fenn Artifact’s list taken from Jenny’s Q & A’s with Forrest:
    “Imagination is more important than knowlege.” If I had spelled that last word correctly it would not have had the profundity of meaning I wanted. To misspell the word emphasized my point that having knowledge is, in fact, not as important as being resourceful.”

    This Q&A is important because it gives us insight into Forrest’s definition of “imagination” since here he says “resourceful” versus say creative. He has said that imagination not knowledge is necessary for solving the poems clues so perhaps one must be “resourceful” to solve the poems clues… Hmmm!

    What does that mean in this context? Well, the context of this answer is in word definition so this seems to suggest that although esoteric knowledge or “specialized” knowledge isn’t needed, IT doesn’t mean Forrest expects us NOT to use resources such as Google in understanding the full definitions of words in his poem!!!

    GCG

    • Also to address the issue of distance from your vehicle to the Treasure Chest – It’s not far.
      Jenny’s site Forrest Quote of the day paraphrase: If you go with someone to find the treasure, better to let them stay in the car…
      Then from Q&A:
      And if I were to take you to “home of Brown” then I might as well just take you to the treasure…

      These strongly suggest the distance from where you park the “sedan” isn’t a very long distance.

      Lastly, the word “paddle” means; to punish or spank. But there will be NO paddle up your creek (no punishing trip) and then “Just heavy loads” (just implies a couple things but one is: a bit of heavy loads).

      GCG

    • PSS.

      Also see Forrest Q&A regarding “a comprehensive understanding of geography” could be very helpful!

      Once again its important to understand what he means by the word comprehensive understanding and that he is telling us to be RESOURCEFUL and he even suggest that Google is a great tool for this…even if you are a Redneck!

      GCG

  32. I just don’t understand guys how numbers play a part in solving or part solving fenns poem?

    Forrest has said time and time again that all you need to find the T.C is his poem, there is no mention of numbers within the poem apart from him saying that there are nine clues within the poem.

    He has also said as you are all aware that there are subtle hints within TTOTC, however the subtle hints alone will not take you to the treasure.

    My thought is that without the poem you have nothing, you can do without the books, you can do without the subtle hints although these hints will help but only if you are in the correct area.

    So again it all comes back to the poem, no poem, no T.C.

    Like everyone else I have studied, studied and studied, I eat, drink and sleep thinking about the poem.

    Forrest has said about a word that is key, I think the word that is key is hidden within the poem.

    What that key word is we’ll that is anyones guess?

    Ronnie the Scot

    • I’ve been thinking lately that the “word that is key” is the word “clue” in the chapter containing the poem he talks about how he used to collect string and how he used square knots to tie them together and ended up with a giant ball of strings. one rainy day it went missing even though it was alleged to be to big to get out of the door.
      After looking up the word “clue”
      https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/clue

      read the “did you know” part in the link. “clue” was derived from “clew” meaning ball of yarn. I think the book has quite a few of these oddities. he spells Richard Wetherill’s name as Wetherell. Wetherill excavated pueblo ruins in mesa verde in colorado. He says he hated “For Whom the Bell Tolls” but it doesn’t make sense giving his philosophical outlook presented in “my war for me” in TTOTC. What makes this even more strange is that when he talks about the plot he describes the plot of “A farewell to Arms!”

      Right before the first chapter in “For Whom the Bell Tolls” Hemingway put the following poem by John Donne

      “No man is an iland, intire of it selfe; every man is a peece of the Continent, a part of the maine; if a clod bee washed away by the Sea, Europe is the lesse, as well as if a Promontorie were, as well as if a Mannor of thy friends or of thine owne were; any mans death diminishes me, because I am involved in Mankinde; And therefore never send to know for whom the bell tolls; It tolls for thee….”

      I’ve read “For Whom the Bell Tolls” I just cant see him not liking it. The first sentence in chapter 1 is “He lay flat on the brown, pine-needled floor of the forest.” I could go on about how hemingway uses the color brown as a motiff throughout the book. but thats another post all together

      When he talks about his “friend” JD salinger, and how he gets the book out of the trash so everyone could see he read it. I’ve read every JD salinger book and short story at least twice, I’ve read “Catcher” too many times to count when I was a teen and gave. he’s in my top five list of authors. Salinger would be disgusted by the idea of someone displaying a book on their desk to show off.

      oh yea and one more thing in “The Great Gatsby” Gatsby had notes written in a Hopalong Cassidy novel. Forrest makes a reference to pretending to be Hopalong Cassidy when using his BB gun shooting at guys in black hats. Cassidy wore a black hat…

      Forrest is not stupid. these inaccuracies and a$$backwards ideas are intentional and i think he is trying to see who is paying attention. on the first page He outright says “….one of my natural instincts is to embellish just a little”

      that’s a short list of the odd things I’ve found. I haven’t come to an ultimate conclusion in regard to the significance and I have more questions than answers.

      I think without the book the references in the poem could be related to whatever map you have in your hand at the time.

      as far as numbers go, the only things that have stuck out to me are a passage in the “my war for me” chapter about him looking down at the 24 gauges in his F-100D before taking off with his wingmen. (24 lines in the poem) I googled the cockpit of an F-100D. maybe there were 24 gauges but it seemed like there were a couple more when I saw the diagram. Also there are 9 periods in the poem. I haven’t decided if its significant or not. but just something I had noticed. I find the 24 gauges thing more intriguing to be honest.

      Anyway, I spent too much time writing this post. I hope you don’t interpret my tone as being rude or abrasive. im dont staring at my laptop so im not in the mood to review every little thing I wrote. just wanted to get these ideas out there.

      all the best,
      alex

      • Interesting thanks for sharing. There are a number of oddities I’ve found too and now I know a few more.

      • Alex –

        Fenn said once that the hints in the book were not placed intentionally. It is hard to believe that the giant ball of string could be a hint given this sentiment from Fenn.

        Now when it come to For Whom the Bell Tolls, it seems that there must be something to it right? He was describing A Farewell to Arms when he mentioned For Whom the Bell Tolls. One of the two is likely a hint. As you say, it’s hard to believe Fenn intended nothing.

        Did you ever notice how Fenn voices his chapters? He voices them in the age he was at the the time. The writing and voice are more immature when describing his antics as a boy. I think the ball of string is a funny story. It’s probably based in truth in so much as there was a ball of string collected. It probably wasn’t so large as to be imprisoned in his bedroom. It could be removed, and it was.

        If you think there are clues intertwined in this yarn, have a ball!

        Lugnutz on a wire

        • I have noticed what you refer to as different “voicings” in the stories in the chapters. I am fairly confident that the “immaturity” is Forrest imitating how JD Salinger portrayed Holden Caulfield. Holden brags about being a terrific liar. He likes to mess with people. He tells a woman on a bus he has to get an operation on his clavichord, the woman doesn’t pick up on the fact that a clavichord is an instrument. He’s also a walking contradiction. I think there might be some gatsby and hemingway styles and themes in TTOTC but it’s harder for me to spot. Again I don’t know what is significant about it if anything. I think I’m just gathering evidence right now. I don’t have enough to where im comfortable to conclude anything from it.

      • Allie,
        Good observations, of which many have been acknowledged prior. However, not many have read these novels as much as you, which surprises me as to why you do not see the common link. It should be very obvious to anyone who has read all these books.,,

      • Alex-
        You are getting at a very important strategy. There are many hints in TTOTC, especially in the chapter “Important Literature.” I’ve found that nearly every concept in that chapter relates to things that can be seen in the final search area. Even many of the words and phrases are hints.

        The books he mentions can be seen on GoogleEarth. There is nothing important in the content of the books. It’s just the title that is important, IMO. There is a huge bell shaped object (For Whom the Bell Tolls), a “catcher” hand object (Catcher in the Rye), half of a huge ball of string, a huge coffee cup that covers much of a representation of the girl in Borders, a desk, a trash can, etc. The Kismet reference to the pickpocket is a good hint. The reason that he says Redford didn’t write a book is because there is a rusty (red) old Model A Ford outside of the Borders (bookstore), but since it isn’t in Borders, it can’t be a book (in the story).

        This is all just a story, made up from the images Forrest has found in the search area. Many of his other stories in TTOTC and elsewhere are made up for the same reason. You have to know where the search area is to see the images.

        • Well John;

          I must be in the wrong place – I sure can not see all that your imagination is letting you see – JDA

          • Well JDA, You must know that imagination is more important than knowledge. But I agree with your statement.

            The directions of the poem have led me to my search area and there are no conflicts with any hints I have found in the book or Forrest’s other statements that could be hints.

            There are two completely different parts to the poem in my opinion:
            (1)The general directions to the search area which includes stanzas 2, 3, and 4 and covers many miles.
            (2) Specific directions in the search area that will take you to the treasure chest. These are in stanzas 1, 5, and 6.

            These two parts of the poem are written completely different from each other. You must use a different method to solve the clues in each part. The second part is the most difficult, by far. It relies much on images that the searcher must himself make, based on directions in the poem. IMO

      • Hi Alex – I’m feeling generous tonight. On page 130 where Forrest misspells Wetherill, he also misspelled Navajo and Colombia.

        Since you seem pretty good at spotting these things, keep your eyes open because there are quite a few more in TTOTC, SB’s, and the other books.

        I personally believe (IMO) that all of these “mistakes” have purpose and fit the correct solution. If you are able to start connecting the dots, you will be impressed with how Forrest hides things in plain sight in almost all of his writings regarding TTOTC. As f would say, ….it’s in the poem for all to see.”

        • HMA

          Didn’t Forrest say that he didn’t intentionally place hints in TToTC?

          It’s pretty hard to believe that he didn’t know he placed a hint by purposefully misspelling a word isn’t it?

          So then what? He misspelled a word AND that turns out to be a hint?

          Or is he lying when he says he didn’t intentionally place hints, that he didn’t know they were there??

          Lugnutz

          • Here’s the quote for those who have not read it

            “All of the information you need to find the treasure is in the poem. The chapters in my book have very subtle hints but are not deliberately placed to aid the seeker.”

            Lugnutz

          • Lugnutz, is that the full quote from f?…Didn’t Forrest say that he didn’t intentionally place hints in TToTC?

          • Lug, I see you provided the full quote.

            The whole quote seems completely different than when you are talking about it after you condensed it down.

          • Lug, I see you provided the full quote.

            The whole quote seems completely different than when you are talking about it after you condensed it down.

          • Hi Lug.

            I agree with FF I can name at least two unintentional hints to clues in TTOTC that can be applied to the poem.

            I’ve heard many on the blogs, but IMO – there only seems to be very few – maybe under five….or even three.

            There ARE many rabbit holes. Beware the white rabbit….he does like to give hints at all.

            Humphhhh!!

          • Hi Lug – I believe searchers need to pay attention and if you don’t or can’t spot the “mistakes”, you will not be able to move with confidence as you solve the clues.

            Forrest weaves hints or mistakes into his stories in a way that they don’t stand out to most searchers. Most are subtle enough that many may not ever notice them unless they were pointed out. If Forrest wanted to be deliberate he would say something like pay attention to this page because I’ve included some hints. He doesn’t do that because he wants people to think for themselves and use their minds. Forrest has said the treasure is not a door prize.

          • HMA

            I’m just saying I can’t square his words Didn’t Deliberately with your ideas.

            It’s ok for you to believe he wasn’t truthful.

            Lug

          • I’ve read interview transcripts here and elsewhere where he seems to say the clues in the book were not intended. I don’t buy it. He seems to have mastered the art of innuendo. I’m at the point to where I have no interest in what he says in interviews, Q&A sessions, and emails. It only makes things more complicated than they already are. take what you hear from everyone, including forrest, and i guess me too, with a grain of salt.

          • Lug, Its my belief that Fenn’s comment “all you need” …. refers to a “minimally all”.

            The very first sentence I read after the poem is: “There are other subtle clues sprinkled in the stories.” So, I’m gonna believe my eyes. Goofy agrees, because he won’t let me call Fenn a liar.

          • Hi Lug/All: we’ve been misreading this quote from Forrest all along:

            “The chapters in my book have very subtle hints but are not deliberately placed to aid the seeker.”

            The hints weren’t put in there to aid Seeker. (Sorry Seeker!) 😉

          • “Not deliberately placed” deliberately meaning on purpose, knowingly or consciously done. Is it possible that after writing the book, and during the editing phase, he was able to go back and see some subtle connections that he had not purposely intended to be subtle hints, but thought to himself, hmm that might help someone. Hence his writings that immediately follow the poem. At least this is how I interpret his meaning by those words.

            You guys sure like to complicate stuff.

          • More seriously, you have to balance all of his statements about the existence of hints/clues in TTOTC:

            Very first sentence after the poem atop page 133: “There are other subtle clues sprinkled in the stories.”

            “Sprinkled” doesn’t sound like 1 or 2 or 3. And “in the stories” means that hints or clues are scattered in multiple chapters of the book. They are clearly deliberate because Forrest wrote the book and admits — in the book itself — that they are there. So it’s not like an accidental after-the-fact “oops, I didn’t mean to put THAT there!”

            We also have Forrest’s statement in the Moby Dickens Book Shop on November 2, 2013: “There are nine clues in the poem but if you read the book, uh, there are a couple … there are a couple of good hints, and then there are a couple of aberrations that live out on the edge.”

            Again — sounds deliberate to me. So in light of these two examples, how can we read: “The chapters in my book have very subtle hints but are not deliberately placed to aid the seeker” and have it not be contradictory? My solution to the conundrum is that since I believe they WERE deliberately placed in the book, it must be that the ~intent~ of the hints was not to aid the seeker.

            For a searcher who hasn’t figured out WWWH, I don’t think most of these book hints will help you at all. And even if you ~have~ solved WWWH, the hints still won’t help you find your way to the chest.

          • Again you all over-complicate the problem, just still with the evidence provided, the poem.

          • Hi Lug – I believe Forrest tells the truth. Sometimes it might not be all of the truth based on the advice that his father gave him. Forrest made this clear in an early chapter of TTOTC.

            In my opinion the Chase boils down to the correct comprehension of what Forrest has shared with us via the poem, other stories, and even videos.

            You, myself, and others are left with with making our own choices knowing that only one path leads to Indulgence. Have fun chasing Lug.

          • “The chapters in my book have very subtle hints but are not deliberately placed to aid the seeker”

            I think this can be explained by f’s definitions of what a clue and a hint do for searchers. The hints obviously can’t act like the clues in the poem. That answers why the hints in ttotc are not deliberately placed to “aid the seeker”…like the clues do in the poem.

            The clues in the poem are the only thing that have been deliberately placed to aid the seeker as each clue gets a searcher closer to the tc.

          • FD, I believe you are correct. When you take those 2 comments and analyze them together, that seems to be the explanation. There are 9 clues in the poem, each takes us closer and closer until we arrive at the chest location.

            The book (ttotc) and the subtle hints in it will help with the clues but will not takes us to the chest. We play two rolls, first the solver of the clues and for that we use the hints he subtlety provided and second we become the seekers of the chest once we have solved the clues and married them to a map.

            Just beating that dead horse again.

        • interesting. thanks for pointing that out. I’ve been thumbing through “The Great Gatsby” It’s been a few years since I’ve read it. Anyway as I was skimming through, I discovered that the name of man who mentored the young Jay Gatz was Dan Cody. in TTOTC Forrest tells a story about a buffalo they found that they named Cody. Does it mean anything? I don’t know yet. but i thought it was worth a mention

        • Lug et al..not only does TTOTC have hints sprinkled tryout but TFTW is advertised as a “hinting memoir” right here on Dals site. Seek and you shall find LOL.

    • Ronnie: it is a fact that numerical information can be extracted from the poem, to include coordinates that happen to fall within the 4-state search area. (And no, that is NOT just my opinion, it is easily shown). But just because *we* can pull numbers out of the poem doesn’t mean Forrest intentionally put them there.

      • So???
        I’m confused.
        There are numeral information in the poem.
        Mr. Forrest did not put them there.
        So, they will not help us
        Find the treasure.
        Right?

      • Hi Clearly Clueless – regarding possible numerical information concealed in the poem, you wrote/summarized:

        “Mr. Forrest did not put them there.”

        No, that’s not quite what I wrote. I suggested that even if ~we~ can devise clever ways of extracting numerical values from the poem, that doesn’t mean Forrest deliberately put them there for us to find. Such occurrences could be nothing more than coincidence. Believe me, with a little bit of imagination you can pull hundreds of numbers out of the poem.

        But just because we can conjure up all sorts of ways of pulling numbers out of a 166-word poem doesn’t mean that Forrest didn’t deliberately hide something in there.

        • Zap…that’s a circuitous comment…one that any politician would be proud of. Kinda’ sounds like Fenn’s comment about paranoia ! Round and round we go…

        • I agree with that Zap. Wasn’t it Isaac Newton who took a long sabbatical to explore the numerology in the bible and came out with nothing to show for?

          • And his attempt to prove the existence of God …

            As to Forrest comments regarding a couple hints and some aberrations out on the edges and a separate comment which has the context of the individual chapters:

            “The chapters in my book have very subtle hints but are not deliberately placed to aid the seeker.”

            To best understand Forrest and his comments, context is critical since the you then can draw a kind of Venn diagram (of as I like to think a “Fenn Diagram”) to determine where his comments might overlap and then what is out on the edges, so to speak…

            For instance using an intersection of a few comments where Forrest says the word “aberration;” it becomes clear that he uses it in the sense of a “variation” or perhaps “peculiarity” and “something different.”

            Anyway applying this method to the question of Hints in TToTC : I have identified what I believe are the TWO major hints in the book and a number of weird coincidences (“aberrations”). The two major hints totally relate to WWWH specifically – the first one is chapter related and corroborates the literal interpretation of the correct WWWH, while the second major hint was specifically placed to corroborate the figurative interpretation of WWWH…but not the chapter’s location per say.

            GCG

          • Oh and the second part of that post is understanding the “sprinkled hints” or the aberrations, from the two major hints.

            The sprinkled hints just worked out and as he said in a Q&A are not in any specific order like his clues in the poem, which are absolutely consecutive and progressive (see his Q&A where he refers to the Indian Girl following the clues like a “recipe”).

            For example when telling the story of his father’s grave location’s Row and Block – this can be a hint but its more by coincidence than by design – its not precise hint but could assist a searcher by chance…

            Lastly when Forrest uses the phrase “a couple hints” – he is using it in an informal context and not in the description of a “married couple” or “a pair” or a “duo” ; instead he is using it to describe an indefinite small number or possibly a “few.”

            This means there could be perhaps 3 major hints and I believe that is the case and this hint also corresponds to solving the 2nd Stanza’s “home of Brown!”

            GCG

  33. didn’t Mr. Fenn say something like,”Read the poem and solve like you were putting an “X” on a map” or something

    • James (TZP),

      Any one can put an “X” on a map with or without numbers. The “X” on the map I believe pertains to the location on the map. It’s like taking a paper map as the finish point from the starting point of travel. When the poem is followed the searcher and finder of the TC most certainly would have put an “X” by hand on the map. I firmly believe numbers are not involved during the search and can be used after the find.

  34. BigSkip here:

    Still here reading with great interest with occasional laughter and boredom. But wanted to ask all searchers their opinion about an issue which still baffles me. Do I recall that FF said way early in the search, “all you need is the book and a good map to find the treasure” or something like that? Now I understand the suggestion about needing “the” book because that’s the place to find the original poem and his comments about “hints” and all the history. Helps with book sales too. But I have always been puzzled by his instruction regarding the “good map”. Did he really expect that searchers would do all the extensive research that they have done and reflected in years of writings on Dal’s blog? Did FF really believe that reading the poem over and over again and trying to uncover the nine clues was really going to help. I suspect we’ve danced around the real clues and their meanings for some time. That’s only my opinion. But what about the map? I’ve looked at hundreds of maps. Have I just not come across the right map? The one from which many of the clues can be found? The map which forest used to help write his poem describing his long-known “special spot”? Was there a vintage map out there, purchased by FF, not common to us all, which is the final clue to a searcher’s dream.
    Just thinking…….

    • Big Skip;

      Here is only one quote, out of several: ““Some searchers overrate the complexity of the search. Knowing about head pressures, foot pounds, acre feet, bible verses, Latin, cubic inches, icons, fonts, charts, graphs, formulas, curved lines, magnetic variation, codes, depth meters, riddles, drones or ciphers, will not assist anyone to the treasure location, although those things have been offered as positive solutions. Excellent research materials are TTOTC, Google Earth, and/or a good map.” f –

      You say, ” Have I just not come across the right map? The one from which many of the clues can be found? The map which forest used to help write his poem describing his long-known “special spot”? Was there a vintage map out there, purchased by FF, not common to us all, which is the final clue to a searcher’s dream.”

      My answer is NO – there is no SPECIAL map. GE and/or any topo that has sufficient resolution will work. At least it has for me.

      So, which topo? – That is the question.

      #1, you have to be in the correct area -THEN get the topo of that area – Not vica-versa. You can’t buy a stack pf topo’s, and look at each and come up with the correct area – that is MY opinion.

      I have said for almost two years now – “in the wood” has a special meaning. A very obscure definition of these words will tell the searcher to look in a very specific geographical area of Wyoming. Once you figure out where this area is – buy the topo, and/or zoom in on the area with GE. Slowly you will be able to work your way through the poem, and it will allow you to see things on the map that match the words – at least that is how it works (ed) for me – JDA

    • Skip,
      I agree with JDA’s arguments and will add that setting up the puzzle in such a way that some people might not have access to all of the necessary resources goes against many things that Mr Fenn has said and is something that seems completely out of character for him.

      As to your comment “Did FF really believe that reading the poem over and over again and trying to uncover the nine clues was really going to help.” referring questioners back to the poem and suggesting multiple reads is one of the most repeated and consistent comments that Mr Fenn makes. My experience after reading and reciting the poem for almost 1000 hours is that with each new discovery I continue to be amazed at how much information is packed into it. Don’t be so quick to dismiss the main resource available to us.

    • IMO, A good map, is a very large map. The larger the map, the more detail it shows. Google Earth, although not being an actual photograph, does show us other details that can’t be seen on a map.

      • @James, “Can a little girl in India, who speaks good English, but only has your poem and a map of the US Rocky Mountains, work out where the treasure is?”

        The problem I believe, with the little girl from India, is that she may only have had a general map of the US Rocky Mountains that which is/was not detailed enough for her to marry the remaining clues beyond the first two. Therefore, she was not able to get any closer than those two. But once you have identified the correct starting point one could then procure a more detailed map to marry the remaining clues to.

        In my opinion and experience, any map of the US Rocky Mountains, may be too broad a brush stroke to be detailed enough to move beyond the first two clues with any certainty. Now yes one could theoretically gather up the many of the 1:50,000 scale topographical maps that encompass all that is the US Rocky Mountains and put them together in one map, but you better have one big ass wall to display them on. So it might be better to first figure out the correct starting point, so that you’ll then know precisely which map you need.

        • what about this (to your small/big map idea): FF: “Look at the big picture, there are no shortcuts”. while the response was about if WWWH was enough, or if you’d need more from the poem, the response wording seems to suggest a macro view at some point. But to me it calls into question what macro means, if it applies to all 9 clues, just a general area, etc.? Logically, we know a 10″x10″ box is too small to accurately locate on even a 7.5″ topo, so I see why the numbers/coordinates folks go off their way, but more and more I tend to believe stomping at somepoint is necessary (not just to walk straight to the box) but rather to investigate, correct, reapply knowledge, etc. But I see problems with that as well…seems that has been a lot of peoples plan/actions all along and not working…seems something major is missing, to Seeker’s constant drum beat comment…why/how did they get within 200/500′ and walk by the rest?

          • That’s a great point… reiterating the 200’/500′ conundrum. It has been one that many folks have speculated about since those comments from Fenn.
            To those using coordinates/numbers…that clearly says the numbers/coordinates being used must be wrong. To those parsing the words for the correct meaning/decipher…that’s where it came unhinged and I believe Fenn’s …”maybe four clues…” statement might indicate the closeness of the clues if the 200’/500′ comment remains true.

        • The Wanderer: 100% agree with what you’ve written here. This has been my drumbeat ever since the Little Indy remark came out on Mysterious Writings. To me, there is absolutely nothing mysterious about Forrest’s answer. In my opinion, he even hides an Easter egg in his answer, which is why the final sentence in his answer (regarding disabled people) seems so odd.

        • RE: maps…I don’t remember if I already said this, but Ill mention it again… In the Lewis & Clark Chapter, the boys use their map to start a fire. Some Lewis & Clark books mention an incident where Lewis burns up pages of his map-journal (his sketches of the Great Falls) to start the evening’s fire.

          Do you think the reference is
          a) unrelated, a coincidence?
          b) a private joke to readers of L&C histories?
          c) a hint to the Chase search area?

          IF a hint… does the act imply:
          a) here
          b) not here.

          IF here… do you need a tighter focus map?

          • That is interesting. I had never heard that here or elsewhere. That could be a clever hint if a searcher had read that particular L&C book…

          • thanks for mentioning this. his references to other literature are always at the very least worth noting. to quoute TTOTC ” no time spent in thought is wasted and nothing is too small to know, so one should not let knowing a little bit be a substitute for learning more.” I think that the clues sprinkled in the pages are there to provide reference to things worth exploring.

            the full Einstein quoute” Imagination is more important than knowledge. For knowledge is limited to all we now know and understand, while imagination embraces the entire world, and all there ever will be to know and understand.”

            I think the chase is more than just enjoying nature. but about learning neat stuff along the way as you try to solve the poem. we have the rest of winter to learn all we can. in summer we explore.

    • Hey BigSkip.

      “A good map”

      – singular or not?
      – is it only “one good map” or is multiple good maps?

      – I think it must be read in the plural. “Not just one good map, but maybe this one too….” …OR… “one good map may be able to see one part of the path, but another good map will allow you to see another, etc.”

      – I have used many good maps to come to a final solution. But one map specifically helped me validate my location.

      – so in essesnce – there is “one good map” that can help, but multiple good maps can really help to get you to the search area. Then another map is helpful, then even another map is helpful.

      Don’t stick with one map, but combine the uses of the all.

      This is difficult, not impossible.

      • Tim;

        Here is the quote referenced by most of us:
        “Some searchers overrate the complexity of the search. Knowing about head pressures, foot pounds, acre feet, bible verses, Latin, cubic inches, icons, fonts, charts, graphs, formulas, curved lines, magnetic variation, codes, depth meters, riddles, drones or ciphers, will not assist anyone to the treasure location, although those things have been offered as positive solutions. Excellent research materials are TTOTC, Google Earth, and/or a good map.” f

        Google Earth and/or “A” good map.

        Forrest “seems” to imply that just one “good” map will do, and I agree. I purchased 4 TOPO’s of my general area – Found that ONE had all I needed. Have NEVER look at the other three other than one quick look when I first bought them. But that is just me. JDA

        • But….do you have the map that FF used?

          That’s the map you you need, because that is his “a good map”… That is the one he refers to as “a good map”.

          Just because I have vintage maps or AAA maps, it doesn’t mean I have any of them that is the “good map” FF used….now does it?

          But alas….I do have a map FF would have used.

          How do I know?

          I found it in the forest I was searching. If I had hidden a reasure, then hiding the map inside that forest, in order to get to the trrasure….is utterly……well…kudos to FF….ingeniuos.

          Where else would you find the map needed?

          Not at a drugstore or travel agency….but from the government…..use them against themselves when legal matters play into the game.

          Cheers!

        • Or does that mean Rand McNally’s Goode World Atlas? Charles Goode Atlas distributed by Rand McNally..

  35. JDA:
    I agree with most you suggest. But I suspect that FF, knowing the area and the specific spot he was going to hid the chest, had access to certain maps, or possibly purchased vintage maps, or even saw the map he was impressed by and used it to assist in writing the poem. The map has on it many of the poem characteristics, elements or even “clues”. Possibly a reference to the all elusive HOB. I have an area to search, but looking a Google just doesn’t do it. Remember, BOTG is an absolute requirement. The right map would be very handy. Just my opinion.

    • BigSkip;

      We all work the puzzle in our own way. If you choose to expend all of your energy looking for the “Perfect” map, instead of looking for Indulgence – Have fun, but it seems like a very deep rabbit hole to me. Good luck guy – JDA

    • Hi BigSkip, mind if I interject an opinion here?

      It does not seem as if Fenn purchased any maps, or even used one in writing the poem.

      https://thefenndiagrams.com/q-a-with-fenn/fourth/

      When you wrote the poem, did you start with the first clue or the ninth?

      “I knew all along where I wanted to hide the treasure so I didn’t need a map or any information to write the poem. Everything was in my head. It took me a while to get the wording exactly how I wanted it. Counting the clues and hiding the chest came later. It is not likely that anyone will find it without following the clues, at least in their mind.”
      ………………………………….

      That is from ‘waterhigh’s’ Blog. Although she is still an active searcher, she posts very rarely on any site. I firmly believe that she asked Fenn the Questions, and accurately rendered the answers she was given. If you read her Journal there, I think you will come to the same conclusion, and who knows, you might find another tidbit, or two! 🙂

      Dal might be able to vouch for ‘waterhigh’, also.
      …………………………………….
      I think Fenn answered this question in 2013:

      Besides not using a map, it appears he did not have a need to reference any other printed material nor need to use anything found online.

      And, I will draw your attention to the fact that he is also stating that the poem was complete before he hid the chest.

      It may be confirmation bias, but this line tells me a lot: “It is not likely that anyone will find it without following the clues, AT LEAST IN THEIR MIND.”

      (ok, ol’ loco goin’ on down the road a piece)

      Ya’ll All have a Merry Christmas…..loco 🙂

      • The fact that he started but didn’t finish the poem until after he hid the chest makes you wonder if he didn’t have the final clues until he spotted them on the way to hide it. Sure he knew and had been to the spot before but perhaps not with writing a poem in mind. If that is the case then some of the clues won’t be found except on site.

        • Just my thoughts on why Forrest waited to finish the poem until after he hid indulgence is because he want to throw a “little zinger” in it. A clue that is not on a good map or seen on Google Earth. Don’t get me wrong almost any local map of the area can help guide you through most clues (they’re straightforward) if you understand what the meaning of WWWH is and which one you need to start at. Now the “hoB clue” is tricky in the sense it shows the place on the map but not it’s meaning, some research will help with that.

          When Forrest said the use of “imagination” could help, then to me you would need to understand when and with what he used his imagination that pertains in this chase. If you can find out this it will help in finding the correct WWWH. As far as it might be easier for a “kid” to to understand, well how often did you use your imagination as a young kid, and are there special memories of ones you can easily remember and talk about relate with throughout your life? This imagination information might be just a big hint or maybe a clue in itself.

          Now a “good map”, the one Forrest refers to is one that shows mast all the poem clue points but possibly one (botg is needed to understand this one clue) and the blaze itself- (I believe you have to be at WH to understand the blaze but I have seen possibilities on Goggle Earth). This map will also show all the hint points that he had reference in his TTOTC book and they will also help in confirming the surrounding area of where he hid the chest, but you will not understand these book hints until you solve the poem and have checkout the whole area surrounding this place at the end of Forrest’s rainbow.

          Of course all I always post is just “food for thought” but “what if” it has substances in it.

          “Merry Christmas” and luck to all,
          Bur

          • Nice post Bur, I agree with much of what you had to say.

            It is funny how much of an imagination we lose as adults unless we work at it. I watch my stepson playing with plastic non-posable army guys and the battles he is having with them. He can sit there and play for an hour or more with them and have an entire battle scene going on in his head. To us as adults these things seem really boring because we do not want to or do not try to use our imagination.

            I sit, concentrate, and use work on using my imagination for the poem and it can take me different directions. The right direction though is the one that needs to be nailed down. The direction that FF’s imagination took him when writing the poem. Much easier from the writers perspective I would guess and look how long it took him.

            Merry Christmas to you and all as well! I will be snowboarding and snowskating in Utah on Christmas. Can’t wait! Yep snowskating. Google it 🙂

          • You bring up some interesting points Bur. You mention hints found in TTOTC that one will not fully understand until one has solved the poem – Very interesting perspective. HUMMM? Also you mention maybe being able to see hoB on a map but not understanding its meaning at first – also very interesting observation – again Hummm?? JDA

          • JDA,

            I don’t have the TTOTC book but had a friend that shared it with me at one time. So when I first read it I tried to pick things that stuck out to me. In most of my searches I used parts of the book to figure in my solves, but in my last solve I just went with the poem and itouchmaps for a place that I discovered through something I found out about Forrest. This info has seemed to pay off in the discovery of WWWH and then most clues fell into place. I have discuss here on HOD and with you some of my thoughts in the solving poem clues. So yes, after I have come to the end of my last solve and only then did I see relationships in the area surrounding with certain hints in the book and even a few of comments made by Forrest himself throughout since the beginning of the chase.

            Also hoB location is on most maps of the area, but unless you understand how it’s Forrest hoB you won’t know it to look at it. Research of that location will help you to understand why he calls it hoB.

            I know not a lot of info to my statements but anymore could compromise my solve location.

            Hope you have a Merry Christmas JDA and good luck.
            Bur

          • Thanks for the response Bur;

            I certainly would not want you to compromise your solve. You have given me a bit to contemplate though.

            Have a VERY MERRY CHRISTMAS ! ! JDA

        • Maybe Dal verified before posting ! This is a gem. One of Fenn’s early Q’s over @ Jenny’s has him stating he was “surprised” early on that so many folks were using GE and maps. This was something he did not expect. Interesting…I like maps…
          Too bad Seeks isn’t here for this one….!
          Don’t get run over by a reindeer Loco…and have a great Holiday!!!

          • Not “surprised”, ken, but I take your point.

            “I am more than pleased with the way it [the chase] has been accepted. What I didn’t expect was the number of people who immediately started searching maps and using Google Earth to locate their special spots.” ff feb 2013

            I was puzzled by this one for a long time – why would he be surprised that people were immediately looking at maps? Especially after he later suggested doing just that.

            So I kept it on a back burner, then ran across it one day and it suddenly hit me that what he didn’t expect was the “number of people” already actively participating (as opposed to their method).

            (The rest of the quote was “. . . . Many have read my book multiple times looking for additional clues, or even hints that might assist them in the hunt.”)

            Jake

          • yes Jake…”surprised” was my take away from his statement. Yours is just as likely and honestly I agree…but I do take note on the comment because of how early it was and his less guarded responses.
            Later comments seem more convoluted…perhaps rehearsed to a point or more generalized.

  36. I just remembered that FF doesn’t buy books without pictures.

    “I won’t buy any book that doesn’t contain photographs.”

    Worth pondering.

    (The White Rabbit may be our truest friend, Tim.)

    • Maybe…..but always in a rush, when FF says to be patient.

      Hmmmmm….not going to that tea party.

  37. Mr. Fenn’s comment, about showing the poem to a kid, “they’ll get it”. Would seem to eliminate complex solves.

    • And perhaps ones without a number or coordinate system !
      Unless…it is as simple as 2 blue sticks, 3 red sticks, 1 yellow triangle…

    • “Mr. Fenn’s comment, about showing the poem to a kid, “they’ll get it”. Would seem to eliminate complex solves.”

      Or require more imagination

    • I disagree James.

      I think FF was only talking about the phrase “where warm waters halt”…..not the entire poem.

      Oh, they may give you an answer that pertains to imagination, but I doubt any child will be able to figure the entire path out.

      It is difficult….too difficult for a young mind.

      Maybe a teenager could….maybe….there are some smart kids out there….but not a child.

      Cheers and good luck.

      • going off of the “imagination is more important than knowlege/imagination is better than knowledge” thing. (knowledge is spelled differently on pages 136 and 139 in TTOTC.) kids are good at making connections to seemingly unrelated things. adults tend to lose that ability. I remember reading articles about how kids were significantly better than adults at thinking about potential uses for ordinary objects. let’s get our imaginations going by thinking of all the possible uses for an unfinished can of soda. I’ll start with three.

        1. extinguishing a small fire
        2. using the aluminum to make crude cutting tools.
        3. cutting it into little tiny pieces to make confetti likely to cause injury when handling…

        • Oh I can agree to those things alex, but I just don’t think they have the capacity to understand the connections THAT NEED to be made.

          I.E.
          ..and this is not associated to my solve.

          Let’s say Mr. T is on the TV. At one time, everyone pretty much knew his face by a picture. You ask a kid nowadays, and they will probably say, “who?”. Unless they recognize him from TV.

          It is just like their imagination. If they have never seen something, to allow for their imagination to take hold and describe something in their way, they will probably dismiss the question and say “I don’t know.”…which is a a logical answer.

          Sure, there are some kids that are much more imaginative than others…..but probably not as many as one would think do help solve this poem from a “child’s eye or viewpoint”.

          I doubt it can happen…thus I still think a child’s mind is not develop3D enough, thus cannot find the treasure….on their own….like FF stated.

          They may give you ideas on something you are thinkning, but that is about all.

          Good luck to you.

    • **** “Mr. Fenn’s comment, about showing the poem to a kid, “they’ll get it”. Would seem to eliminate complex solves.” ****

      If he ever said it.
      (It’s still marked “unsourced/no context” in my notes.)

      Jake

      • In Moby Dickens video:

        Q: ” Do you think kids have a shot at finding the treasure?” ( a 9 year old kid asked the question)
        FF: ” I think kids may have an advantage. Don’t expect me to explain that. But sue, sure their eyes are better, they are more agile, they have more energy. Why should a kid sit- take a back seat in the treasure hunt”.

        I think I read one more question about kids and the treasure hunt/poem after this MD Q&A follow up.

        IMO

  38. The fact that for the last 7 years tens of thousands of people have tried solving this thing and the chest has yet to be found blows my mind. I think that whoever finds it is going to have some “Eureka!” moment while in the shower or something. Something will just click and it will make sense. Maybe it’s a perspective thing, a philosophical outlook, or one’s character that needs to be developed in order to really understand it all. the person who finds it probably has a story to tell just as interesting as Forrest does.

      • I think i remember Forrest saying something along the lines of “the person who finds the chest will have earned it” it carried a certain connotation with it. the most profound and serious chapter in TTOTC My War for Me seems to give some insight into how he views purpose or chance in the universe. i sometimes think he had a certain type of person in mind when writing his poem. He wants people to get out and enjoy the outdoors, but something tells me he doesn’t really want joe six pack finding his treasure. but what do i know.

        • Alex. I perceive that FF speaks to different awareness’s when he talks or writes. I wouldn’t attach labels to this as levels , such as higher or lower awareness. It’s just awareness itself. I think every type of knowing!wisdom awareness can be successful in solving/finding this chest.

          I became aware of this TC a year ago, I am a Canadian living in Canada. I knew very little about the individual 4 US states and never ever been to those 4 states. I have only visited the USA west coast for a week here and there. I am like a land locked example of a person in India. I read the poem , not ever yet his books, and knew/know not much of USA history . Knowledge is the easiest thing to attain, as long as ones memory is intact. The uniqueness one can have is in their kind of wisdom that one applies through knowledge. IMO . There is no age limit of wisdom-knowledge just takes time and memory. IMO .

          There is lots of different interpretations of the poem out there/here. IMO .

          “If you’ve been wise and found the blaze,”

        • Say around…..at…… Xmas next year?

          *wink-wink-nudge-nudge*

          LOL

          …hmmmm….I’m wonderng if the prelims will be ready by then….

          Maybe not.

          1. Find treasure
          2. Secret treasure away
          3. Inventory treasure
          3a. Non-disclosure agreements made
          4. Get coins graded
          5. Authenticate placer nuggets to specific mine, if possible…..????….authenticate any jewelry or gems, nonetheless.
          6. Prep for production/lawyer actions
          7. Prep for museum tour in US
          8. Prep book for first draft, may be audio too
          9. 15 minutes of fame comes along somewhere in there after the tebeal, I hope.
          10. Talk show circuit
          11. Radio circuit
          12. National Geographic will probably get involved….etc….maybe Travel Channel too…

          I could go on and on.

          Lots of people will have some fun.

          Maybe 2019…I first have to find the treasure, huh? But dream a little dream, but dream and imagine “bigmy”

          Willing things to happen isn’t that hard to do, now is it?

          Anyhow, it sounds fun for me and will be for any more if I am successful.

          Others will even get an opportunity to own a piece of the treasure….that kind of fun is planned.

          Cheers and good luck.

          • “Secret where?”

            I’ve always thought….that it related to “my secret fishing hole”…..but others scoffed at it, moving it off as an “aberration” to them.

            My key word is a secret….*smiles*…..

          • The first stanza is sure different from the rest of them. The first words “As I”…then … ” have gone alone in there”, sure sets things up a certain way.

            “As I” ? Is an interesting way to start an untitled poem. IMO .

            The entire first stanza , in my opinion is the:

            “What surprises me a little is that nobody to my uncertain knowledge has analyzed one important possibility related to the winning solve.”

            The first clue is “Begin it…” in the 2nd stanza. The clues are contiguous , so the 9 clues start in the second stanza.

            Is the “important possibility” related to the meaning of ,in the first stanza? I think so. IMO .

            Secret where- as meaning Secret fishing spot or bathing? I just can’t wrap any interest in that thinking . Lol.

          • Hi JW.

            I’m not swayed by anyone.

            Every step I’ve taken was on my own and done with careful footing and thought.

            I’ll dream my dream.

            I’ll “will” my dreams to come true.

            🙂

  39. How does Forrest know that the T.C is still there?

    What are the two mysterious items that where placed in the T.C?

    To me every time Forrest was asked if he thought the T.C was still where he hid it, he seems to be very confident that it is still there.

    How can he be so sure?

    Ronnie the Scot

    • Probably a very strong “incentive” type addition to the chest.
      Hopefully it is not some sort of EPIRB or distress beacon that alerts the authorities!!!!

      • not the bracelet…
        At this point it does not concern me one bit what may be in the chest. I do not believe whatever it is, is relevant, just a curious speculation. I just want it to be “retrieved” by a searcher….

    • FF said : “there is one thing in the chest that I have not talked about except to say I don’t want to talk about it. It is something saved especially for the person who solves the clues”.
      That would be one mysterious thing, are there 2 things?

      It is interesting to think about what that thing could be and how he would know if the chest has or hasn’t been found.

      The underlining question , for me, with these ponderings is; is it possible to glean any indication from FF’s stories or words ,what these could be?

      Best guess case scenario is all I got . Lol.

      • If one determines the correct “Word that is key”, it is my belief that they will then know what this special gift is.

        IF there is a second “special gift” I would suspect that it relates to the silver and turquoise bracelet. As Ken said, probably an “Incentive” to return the bracelet to Forrest – Just a guess – What do I know? NADA – JDA

        • I would say second special gift would be If you are brave and in the wood I give you title to the gold ..He hid one of his bronze bell with the title in it of owner ship

        • JDA. I think your reference to a word that is key has some merit. I extrapolate similarities in what FF says by looking for conjoining “sprinkles”. Some think these comments have no relevance to assisting in solving the poem or the TC location. The poem and the TC location are 2 relatives of the same ancestor. Simply by the reasoning of the poem is a map to the TC location-2 things!

          So we have:

          “but only a few are in tight focus with a word that is key”

          “What surprises me a little is that nobody to my uncertain knowledge has analyzed one important possibility related to the winning solve.”

          “It is something saved especially for the person who solves the clues.”

          There is one more “sprinkle” but I’ll leave it as special to my notice lol.

          I don’t know anything with certainty either, JDA. Perhaps the similarity of “what” the standard of thinking has been achieving, can mingle better with maybe a “how” FF is thinking.

          I would rather be the lead dog walking around the Rockies, than running on a treadmill while watching a hampster. IMO .

          What is ” analyzed one important possibility Related to the wining solve”….?

          • After Zap posted the link to the blog from 2013 I read much of the rest from that page and some people were posting that FF said on his site that WWWH is the key. If that is the case wouldn’t it make sense that the “one important possibility Related to the wining solve” or key word is directly related to WWWH?

      • I THINK (though could be remembering wrong) that in the book the one thing he said he dismt wamt to talk about (or promiaed not to talk about) was an animal he and donnie shot? Though completely morbid, I know, ive sometimes wondered if maybe it wasn’t someones dog or something. Purely a childhood accident, but maybe kept the tag or something as a tribute to its life? Not like a trophy of the accident…but more of a reminder of how cherished every single sole is?

        Probably a bad example, but maybe something alomg that SORT of line. I only guess this because he says hes only talked about it to say he didnt want to talk about it. That statement, to me, seems to imply he’s ‘already’ said he disnt want to talk about it….so.I looked for anything hed prior said he didnt want to talk about. That incident from the book jumped to my mind as one hed mentioned not talking about. Maybe there are other times he’s said that about other things too and the same sort of logic could apply?
        Anyone remember anything else hed prior stated not wanting to talk about? Could be an interesting line of thought/conversation.

        • Oh. Amd this from the Spice Scrapbook:

          Ground Turmeric
          “Belongs to the ginger family.” I don’t want to talk about it. The label doesn’t say what it is but something in there is dead.

          • Back to page 82 ttotc – “It was a funeral!!!”

            “It” equals funeral…. so we may think.

            Maybe that thought will help you.

        • Here is the quote that refers to the “special ” item:
          ”Are there any objects placed in the Bronze Chest that are connected, or have meaning to the place the chest is hidden? ~ Mike
          No Mike, everything in the chest is straight forward and visual, except my autobiography, which some might find dull. Oops, I forgot, there is one thing in the chest that I have not talked about except to say I don’t want to talk about it. It is something saved especially for the person who solves the clues. I think that person will be pleased when she sees it.” F
          JDA

          • See what I mean? WHATEVER it is, his wording is such that hes saying hes ALREADY said he doesnt want to talk about it.

            Logically, if looking for hints to what that item might be, one might look for things he’s said he doesnt want to talk about. He gives us that hint in the statement.

            May not help solve the poem, but if people are curious about what that item is, it seems to me to be a logical place to start looking.

            In the above HYPOTHETICAL example, I think “Ginger” would be pleased to see her tags among Fs most precious gems when the finder pulled them from the chest. Even if only from heaven. Not saying thats the case, just used as an analogy.

        • Jonsey1, thanks for sharing info from the book. Good cross reference to what FF has said of in something similar . The two connotations seem different , I think though. Being as this is something saved especially for the finder. But, both scenarios kind of speak to some kind of emotion attachment..maybe? I dunno.

        • I thought that he said that he WAS going to put one in, but changed his mind because he figured out a better way of knowing when the chest was found – per Preston’s foreward. JDA

          • JD

            Preston says a lot of things.
            Remind me if you are in the camp that believes Preston or doesn’t? Or if you beilve him sometimes because it depends.

            Lugnutz

          • As with anyone, I believe what he has to say, until it is proven to not be the truth. Same goes for you or anyone else. Most of the time I believe what you have to say, once or twice I have had to reevaluate what you have said. Same goes for me I am sure. Why does one have to be in any particular “camp”? All too often society tends to put people in to niches or “camps” for reasons that are less than “ethical” – for lack of a better term. JMO – JDA

          • JD

            There is one really famous instance where a lot of chasers won’t believe him. I’m referring to what he says he read in an older version of the poem. No one wants to believe him because if they do it impacts thier solve or list of clues.

            But a couple years later we are quoting him like he’s a gospel writer.

            Me? I think Doug, Cynthia and others that have been close to Fenn should be paid a lot more attention to.

            That’s My two sense

            Lugnutz

        • Hi Lug: if he removed the $500 and $1000 federal reserve notes out of fear of rot, I think $10k is out.

    • Remember Fenn said:
      “So I put an IOU – I wrote out an IOU. “Take this IOU to my bank in Santa Fe, and collect $100,000.” I figured for $100,000, the guy that found the treasure chest would not want to keep it secret anymore. I think I took that IOU out. But I don’t remember whether I did or not. It’s in there in spirit.”
      I’d like to believe in spirits!
      😀

  40. But I do believe that the cartoon picture of the stick man in a boat is a clue.It’s representing the shape of the creek where the T.C. is hid.

  41. please/plēz/
    verb
    1. cause to feel happy and satisfied.
    2. take only one’s own wishes into consideration in deciding how to act or proceed.

  42. Mr. Fenn said he put cash in the chest, so the finder , if short on cash wouldn’t be tempted to sell anything, and would have time to think about what they were going to do.

    • James,

      The cash was removed because it would deteriorate over time, then he thought about an IOU. He discounted that also because he might not be alive when the TC was found. SB#31

      I don’t think you read the story or you were misinformed.

  43. Jonsey1, I thought he was referring to the porcupine they ate because they were starving and couldn’t get anything else. He ended up talking about it later on in the story. Paraphrasing, it was pretty tough to eat, and if faced with the choice of eating another porcupine or starving to death, he’d have to think about it. If it were dog tags from an accidental shooting, I don’t think pleased would be the emotion, more like melancholy.

    Don’t think it would be The Arrowhead, too personal to part with.

    By Jove, I think I’ve got it – yes, she would be pleased! Doggone it, it’s tempting to spill the beans, but once upon a time, I read an article about the book The Murder of Roger Ackroyd that gave away the twist before I read the book, and, boy, was I ticked. So no bean spilling. Or maybe I’m just full of beans–AKA JMO.

    • Yeah, I dont think it was necessarily dog tags. I was just making an example on possibilities of things hes already mentioned he doesnt want to talk about as the only clue we seem to have is its something he said he didnt want to talk about prior to that post. I dont know all the times he said that and theres many things it could relate to. I do tend to gravitate toward the “finder” and the “she” in that statwment referring to different entities but thats just me.

    • P.S. I don’t think it’s ladies jewelry. He pretty much has that covered in the chest. There was something in Jonsey1’s comment that clicked as far as “she would be pleased.” If my hunch is correct, it’s totally awesome and not in a monetary sense. He has talked about this before but not in reference to hiding it in the chest or talking about not talking about it. As always, JMO.

  44. JDA,

    In one of your most recent comments regarding the two mysterious objects in the T.C.

    F.F said
    I think that person will be pleased when she sees it.

    Interesting that he says “SHE” do you think that he said this on a spur of the moment without thinking?

    He has obviously thought of everything that he could possibly think of when he hid Indulgence.

    Whatever the mysterious objects are must be of significant value to prevent the finder from staying quite about the find.

    Ronnie the Scot

    • How about it is something that would be specifically for a woman,like a ring or antique broach.

    • Ronnie;

      You ask the question: “Interesting that he says “SHE” do you think that he said this on a spur of the moment without thinking?”

      No, I think that he used “SHE” deliberately. I think that it relates to a piece of jewelry – JMO – JDA

      • JDA…Over @ Jenny’s you may be interested in Questions with Forrest February 4, 2013.
        This is a totally different spin that may change your mind on that. All of the answers are interesting…but Q4 is the one I am speaking of.

        • Thanks again ken – YUP YUP I can imagine the look of awe when Indulgence is first opened. Hope it is me or one of my search team who gets to experience the awe – JDA

  45. Guy’s,

    I’ve just had a thought, can HOB be a shop somewhere in the Rockies north of Santa Fe that sells Brown Leather.

    Cowboy Boots, Cowboy Hat’s etc

    I passed a Leather Shop today that sells ladies handbags and had a eurika moment

    It’s maybe a silly thought, but you guy’s will have a better idea about HOB than me.

    Ronnie the Scot

  46. over on Safety First, Jake Faulker made the comment …”Maybe it’s (in water & not under)?” … but is there really a difference or is it just “wording” that separates the two meanings?

    would like some opinions as there are a whole lot of folks that believe (WATER) play some kind of roll in the CHASE other than the obvious WWWH phrase

  47. This treasure hunt reminds me of when your dog wants out at 3:00AM and you stand there in the cold doorway while she circles the yard a few times and sniffs around and then comes in and pees on the rug.

    • Randawg: I’m glad I wasn’t sipping coffee when I read your post! The relevance and timeliness was uncanny… 🙂

  48. And a side note: but isnt everything in there reserved to the finder? Or maybe its reswrved for a museum or something with a generous offer to trade? Odd that there would be “one thing” reserved for the finder. Not implying anything, thinking out loud about it.

    • Possibly Forrest was thinking about the possibility that the finder would auction or sell the treasure “As a whole”, or place it on display “As a whole” – but this one special “item” could be kept by the finder without negating the value of the “Whole” treasure. Just a thought – JDA

  49. has Mr. Fenn ever mentioned in any form (one combination)s of the Following of any type?

    Primary/Secodany

  50. My new thoughts on the chase.

    1. I feel that stanza one in the poem ris a riddle, and the answer to the riddle is “Memoir”

    2. The clues in the poem do not refer to any place in real life directly, instead they refer to TTOTC (the Memoir). In other words, WWWH is in the book. When you find WWWH in the book, it gives you the required HINTS to figure out the answer to WWWH in the poem.

    Think of it this way, the poem is the missing Table of Contents for TTOTC. You use the poem to locate the hints that will help with a clue, such as WWWH, and the answer will be found. Yes, I am saying that without the book, you can still solve it, but good luck finding THE exact place.

    NOTE: I am NOT saying that WWWH would be given in the book as a location, such as Yellowstone. But the chapter that relates to WWWH will indirectly provide the information. It will require thought and imagination, he will not just provide a name in the book that can be looked up on GE.

    Forrest once said that warm means comfortable. When if “warm waters” halts, it means it is going to be uncomfortable, and it probably has nothing to do with rivers or lakes, it could be one of the times halts crying (tears = warm water). That is what I mean by indirect.

    Anyway, that is my opinion after almost 4 years. And like Forrest said (paraphrased), the successful searcher will have read the poem and the book many times, over and over, looking in the book for hints that will help with clues in the poem. We all know the poem is vague, so other than brute force you should be looking in the book to narrow down the answers to the clues.

    • Wy – what if the correct “solve” of the poem required a specific piece of information from the book that required a correct “solve” in a section of the poem that required a difference specific piece of information from the book?

      What if several iterations of specific pieces of information were required in this way? This might also explain why thousands have tried for years but the chest remains at large.

      ff said it was difficult but not impossible. Said differently, it is almost impossible IMO.

      • Exactly, Covert.

        The fact is Fenn has repeatedly said (paraphrased) read the poem over and over until its in memory, read the book normally, then read it over and over slowly looking for hints that will help with the clues.

        He said that the hint placement was not deliberate, to me this means they are not labeled as hints, they require you to look very closely at the book.

        To me this means that the book is required. Can it be solved without the book? Sure, brute force can work, just go visit one of the thousand places WWWH.

        Somehow, someway, the poem and book need to be used together.

        Looking at Stanza One we have:
        As I have gone alone in there – In The Memoir
        And with my treasures bold – In The Memoir
        I can keep my secret where – In The Memoir
        And hint of riches new and old. – In the Memoir

        Now on Stanza Two:
        Begin IT – Read The Memoir
        WWWH – Beginning where warm waters halt.

        So where do warm waters halt in the memoir? That is what we need to answer. I have a few ideas… Lets say it is “Bessie and Me” (I just picked a random chapter).
        Now we need to find out what hints in “Bessie and Me” will help get “WWWH” location on a map/GE.

        Maybe the postage stamps help…
        Maybe there are anagrams in the book…
        Maybe the pictures have the clue…
        Maybe counting the words…
        Etc…
        Etc…

        Forrest designed the poem so that it is so vague it can map to a million locations. That could be the problem, maybe we don’t want to use any maps directly with the poem itself, we want to use the maps after finding the meaning of the hints in the book.

        It might turn out that WWWH has nothing to do with water in the real world, only in the book. Maybe the hints will have you looking at “WWWH” as really meaning “an indian reservation in NM”. And as long as people ignore the book they will keep searching river confluences, water falls, reserviours, etc when it might be none of the above.

        Another thing to try is maybe the column/row of the clue within the poem somehow maps to a location in the book (chapter/page, or a knot number on the ball of string in the book).

        By Knot I mean: Some chapters end with a square brown block, I call them “knots”. There are 26 total knots in the book, one for EVERY chapter except “Important Literature” which has the one and only asterisk at the end instead of a knot. The preface has no knots, no postmarks, and no asterisk or any unique identifier.

        The book has 28 sections:
        Preface; Untitled, 25 titled chapters, and the Epilogue.

        Postmarks: 27 total. 20 postmarks within the book chapters and 7 inside the covers.
        The preface and 7 chapters do NOT have postmarks: Chapters with no postmarks: Teachers with ropes, Dancing with the Millennium, Epilogue, My Spanish Toy Factory, No Place for Biddies, Important Literature, and Untitled

        The poem has 24 lines, 166 words, 188 Syllables. All lines have 8 Syllables except for 2, 3 and 7. Line 2 has 6 syllables, and lines 3 and 7 have 7 syllables. This indicates that lines 2, 3, and 7 were not in rythm for some reason.

  51. Today it’s Winter Solstice – the shortest day of the year.

    The start of a long Winter for searchers but one day closer to getting out and looking once the weather clears.

    Interesting how it’s also the longest night of the year….funny how that works.

    • Ahh, but not for our resident Curious Hobbit (who has been curiously quiet of late) — he’s out sunning himself on the beach enjoying the longest day of the year! 🙂

  52. The problem is that Forrest has said the poem can be solved without the book(s). This suggests that there can’t be critical information in the books, without which you can’t determine the chest’s location.

    Dal’s site appears to be getting hit hard today. Denial of service attack, or was there a new media story today?

    • Zap – what about a different possibility – ff said it takes imagination and logic to solve the point. However, he didn’t define imagination and logic. So, what if imagination does require someone to piece together a “hint” to understand the poem to understand another element that is within the book that required to solve the poem. Sure, he didn’t directly say any of his books were required but he also does not define imagination or logic.

      I’m not sure what’s going on with the site – access time is really slow today.

    • Zap, yes he did say that.

      You can brute force it. May take a thousand years, but you can check every possible WWWH in the Rockies.

      OR

      You can do what he also said: “Read the book looking for hints that will help with the clues.” and find the correct WWWH without using brute force.

          • Thanks Clearly Clueless. I have come to understand that Time is the governor for experience ,so that everything is not manifested all at once. I see this function of time in the design of the poem . Past , present and future all rolled up synchronous in the story and clues of the poem. I see 3 different people of different timelines represented in the poem. The 3rd being whomever is the solver of the clues. The “collapsing of time” means,to me, being of the same frequency. For example: Architect , Archeologist and Poet. IMO .

      • Hi WyMustIGo: I don’t think there is a need to brute force anything. The WWWH I figured out 18 months ago required no help from the book. Only well after the fact was I able to go back to TTOTC and find hints all over the place that point to the spot. Yes, I know, confirmation bias. But my shadow ain’t cast by no fool, and I know how to distinguish happenstance from deliberate design.

        If I had spent more time dissecting the book ~prior~ to solving this WWWH, could I have figured it out sooner? I doubt it. Most of the hints are too subtle. I don’t feel there’s a magic bullet hiding in the book that will give the searcher a Eureka! moment. The source for that kind of epiphany is baked into the poem, waiting for the searcher to uncover it. Full disclosure: this is all the opinion of (only) a 2-1/2-year searcher.

    • Maybe. But me think book important kemozaphi.
      “The hints in The Thrill of the Chase text will not be made public because they would say more than I want to reveal. Discovering which hints to use is part of the mystery.”
      JMO.

      • Exactly Randawg – “The hints in The Thrill of the Chase text will not be made public because they would say more than I want to reveal. Discovering which hints to use is part of the mystery.”

        It’s the “Discovering which hints to use…” part that tells us we “use” the hints.

        • Covert One, I agree. Although Fenn said you could do it with just the poem, to me that is brute force (throwing darts). It takes all of 5 seconds to realize that ALL the clues can map to million of places. So why on Earth not do what FF said, use the hints in the book (if you have the imagination to find them) to help with the clues.

          That, IMO, is the only way to make them not so vague.

          The thing I discovered with the hints that I found is that they are NOT direct at all. The link between the clue and the specific hints is not direct. Having said that, looking in GE for a place WWWH for example is going to take a lifetime of failures until you find the right one (if you do at all).

          In the book there are certain things that are consistent throughout. For example his use of the colors Red, Black, Green and the context they are used. Same with any mention of the current weather, borders, etc.

          I did a few things over the past few months that helped me a lot!

          1) I transcribed the book into a Word Document, including pictures, captions, even the dust cover. I did it using free OCR such as Microsoft One Note, then corrected the mistakes OCR made and proofread.

          2) For each chapter I created a text file. In that text file I describe abberations, color usage, mood, postage stamps, headings, and numbers used. I also write a short list of bullets that contain my thoughts.

          3) I went through each text file and compiled a list of things in common throughout the book. And also my overall thoughts. I also tried to track the ball of string through each knot/chapter. The book does not appear to be in order, so to say. The hints for the clues do not appear to be in chapter order as printed.

          It is a lot of work, but the poem and TTOTC are the two most valuable resources you have. Forget the noise (for now) in the scrap books, TFTW and OUAW books. Focus only on these two things until you feel you have located the good stuff.

          NOTE: In all of the above research I did not add ANY solves right away. Doing so will get you off path and down rabbit holes. It is almost as if you are doing a book report in school on TTOTC (poem included). Your job is to find the links between the two using your imagination. IGNORE MAPS AT FIRST!!!! WWWH may have nothing to do with a confluence of rivers/streams, you do not want to be looking for such places YET until the hints are found and the connection to the poem is made. Then you use a map.

          Another tip is to make a list of words, not just synonyms, all words that might tie to a clue.

          For example WWWH could be:
          Tears
          An empty cup of tea
          Rain hitting a roof
          Weather change
          A Sink/Basin/Tub
          Death (you are mostly made of warm water)
          Birth (water breaking)

          Once you locate all places in TTOTC that might refer to WWWH as one or more of those, narrow them down until your main focus is on one of them.

          Once you have a chapter located, read that chapter slowly and with imagination and a bit of research you will come up with a list of nouns that are being described by the text. That is the stuff you might need in order to locate a place on GE or a map that meets the description of the hints, this becomes your answer to WWWH.

          You now have a starting point. From there it should be slightly easier because when you are on clue two, you should start to see relations to the first clue.

          After four years it is now my belief that the reason why it has not been found in 7 years is because not many people do this. They are trying to map the poem clues to real world locations without first having tied them to the hints. The hints are what will help with the details IMO.

          Think about this for a minute. If your WWWH is lets say the headwaters of a major river such as the Green River, you will then obviously take the first canyon that the river takes when it begins. Well, bad news is ALL rivers in the mountains are connected to a canyon. So how is your WWWH + Canyon unique out of the thousands?

          Is your HoB something like “Brown Mountain”? Well for starters, which one? LOL. How is that a “home”? For example, one Brown Mountain is in the Shoshone National Forest in Wyoming. Wouldn’t it make more sense for HoB to be the Shoshone National Forest? It is the HOME of Brown Mountain. So we need to go BELOW the HoB, why would one think this means below Brown Mountain when the poem says below the HOME of Brown, in this case it would be below the Shoshone NF which would put you south of those mountains into the valley near Crowes Butte between Dubois and Riverton.

          Anyway, that is getting off topic, point is I do not think there is a direct relationship with the clues as written in the poem and a map. The relationship is with the clue MEANINGS/ANSWERS and the map. To get the real meanings/answers you use TTOTC. The other way is brute force and hope to stumble on the chest IMO.

          • WYMUST,
            Looks like you’ve done some interesting work there but I think most searchers would be well advised to temper their expectation as to what a hint really does.

            Your list of what WWH could be are things most of us have considered at one time or another but are answers really hidden in the book?

            http://mysteriouswritings.com/featured-question-with-forrest-subtle-clues-in-the-thrill-of-the-chase/

            Q. You have said to read the poem and read TTOTC to help solve for the 9 clues. We all know there are many options to choose from regarding, Brown, hoB, wwh,and blaze hinted at in the book. My question is, “In the book, do you also, in a more subtle way, tell which is the correct answer to one or all of the above?”~BW
            A.” No I don’t madam, sorry.”

            You said: ” To get the real meanings/answers you use TTOTC. ”

            So a straight read on this Q&A suggests that actual answers to the clues are not included in the book. I suspect the hints are much more tangential.

            Good luck.

          • Or like my theory where the hints lead to specific area right outside of a possible wwwh as compared to the location of the tc. It passes that Q&A answer.

          • Fundy,
            OK it passes that q&A but…” hints lead to specific area right outside of a possible wwwh”.

            If it gets you physically near to WWH, then sounds like hints are taking you closer to the chest so….. does it pass the clue vs hint definition test?

          • Very good question, Colokid.

            You’re right it absolutely has to pass that hint versus clue definition test.

            This is how it does that possibly.

            I think f’s definition of a clue is the deciding factor. We know a clue gets us closer to the tc. I think not many searchers think about that enough and what all that means. To me, it means clue 1 (wwwh) is where the definition of a clue starts…pretty obvious. It also means that a hint can’t act like a clue (get us closer to the tc) or the hint would be a clue. So hints can only help us before clue 1.

            Thinking about all those ramifications get us to your question. In my theory, it’s a hint that gets us to a specific area just outside the correct wwwh. That doesn’t fail the f definitions of a clue and hint.

            Since we know for sure now where the first clue is it makes even more sense.

            The clincher, f can’t possibly know where every searcher in the world is starting their search from…for example where they live or where they are on their search day. That is why f had to say in the poem begin it wwwh. He just established where everyone has a level playing field to start the clues off.

            Getting a hint to just outside clue one is perfectly in sync with f’s definitions. I think that’s why stanza 1 in the poem has the word hint in it. That stanza is a hint to the first clue.

    • One might be able to pass the drivers license written test by not reading the handbook but it’s wise to skim through it before heading to the DMV.
      😉

    • what a life been there the earth can be very unkind merry Christmas every one and a good year to the next may your searches be filled with safety and beauty and health

    • You can draw some kind of triangle on any piece of turf that will align almost perfectly with bits of that turf, and every triangle has Tarry Points.

      What’s the significance?

      Jake

      • It’s interesting here, all the different approaches for trying to figure this poem out.

        Enjoy the holidays , everyone.

  53. Kind of reminds me of F and Donnie burning the map in Lewis and Clark. They were able to find their way out of the mountains without the map….though it took some mountain man wisdom and some awesome horses.
    Maybe its the same with the poem/book…certainly one could find their way without the book (like F and Donnie did without their map)…so the book (or map in the analogy isnt necessarily vital) but may be a lot easier/quicker WITH it?

    • Yes I agree, and more (I upset another rabbit while digging). That makes thousands and thousands of unhappy rabbits.

      And when ff says the clues get easier after wwwh, well, my brain cells like to disagree (okay, imo with another bottle of beer).

      Happy holidays to all!

      Smiley Face.

  54. Zap,

    This question I think you answered recently but I couldn’t find it. How many instances of those ‘backwards’ sayings like the Mz Maven bit have you found? Less than 10 or more? Did you add to that list the ‘hunt prepared and go safely’?

    Do you consider these hints or easter eggs? I’m looking into how hints can help with the clues…

    • Hi Oz10: I haven’t counted, but ten is in the ballpark. If I had to pick over or under, I’d pick over. But not as many as 20. As for your “hunt prepared and go safely,” I don’t recall seeing that one, but if it’s from Forrest it’s clearly backward.

      I consider hints/Easter eggs basically the same thing. As far as Forrest’s Chase goes, I may have been the first to apply that label to them. I called them Easter eggs because in and of themselves they aren’t useful for solving clues. Rather, they are subtle references to geographical entities in the immediate vicinity of the search zone. They don’t help navigate you to the chest. All they do is give you a psychological boost that you are in the right ballpark. All in my opinion, of course. Confirmation bias is insidious, so you have to have a pretty solid statistical dividing line between what is coincidence and what is design.

      • Hi Zap, thanks for the answer. Hunt prepared and go safely, I’m pretty sure he wrote that as part of an answer to a searcher a while back. Possibly at Jenny’s site MW.

        Also, I did hear the ‘easter egg’ label from you first and I understood that you were classifying some of your findings in different categories. That is good, not trying to challenge that.

        You said: “Rather, they are subtle references to geographical entities in the immediate vicinity of the search zone.” I do have an issue with that and I have explained it before, it comes down to my understanding that hints will help with deciphering the clues, then the clues will take you the location of the chest. I have seen many places and lots of mountains that shared the same names in CO, WY and MT. Still, I am trying to be more flexible on that point and on what a hint could be.

        Back to the backwards, what is all that about??? Is FF just having some fun with his writings? Maybe he is. I just can’t ignore that in the poem we find the line: There’ll be no paddle up your creek. It has been discussed many times that the saying goes ‘you’re up a creek without a paddle’ and it means that you are in trouble or in a hard spot.

        Is he hinting to this line and its composition? Should we look into it and THINK and ANALIZE its meaning and different interpretations? Is there a physical creek, is the paddle an object or are they metaphors? Should we read the whole line as a message that you are in trouble at this point, or exactly the opposite, that you are not in trouble at this point because it is written backwards? Also important, what else in the poem is backwards, or should be backwards when is not?

        I already know we need to start at the beginning and with the first clue. We can’t start in the middle of the poem, again I already know all that but if these little hints are pointing here should we look into it or just discard them. What are your thoughts?

        • Oz10, you mentioned this in response to Zap…You said: “Rather, they are subtle references to geographical entities in the immediate vicinity of the search zone.” I do have an issue with that and I have explained it before, it comes down to my understanding that hints will help with deciphering the clues, then the clues will take you the location of the chest. I have seen many places and lots of mountains that shared the same names in CO, WY and MT. Still, I am trying to be more flexible on that point and on what a hint could be.

          Here’s my take on a possibility that overcomes your concern about many geographical areas named the same in the states.

          F certainly knows this. He could easily have designed the hints (the stories that lead up to the hint/aberration) to pinpoint one of the many named geographical locations. He could do this by using different stories in ttotc that come back to relating to the one place.

          On another point, I think the hints in the book coincide to reveal the correct wwwh/first clue. I don’t see the complicated route of needing to have hints help with clues further along the clue path. For two reasons, it would go against the definitions of what a clue and a hint are and, imo, once one figures out the hints prior to clue one they will know they have the correct wwwh. Then follow the clues from there on. No switching back from a clue, to a hint, to a clue, to a hint and so on…

          • FD, that sounds good. Can you provide evidence or some examples of both of your claims so we can explore further?

            1. F certainly knows this. He could easily have designed the hints (the stories that lead up to the hint/aberration) to pinpoint one of the many named geographical locations. He could do this by using different stories in ttotc that come back to relating to the one place.

            -Show how those multiple ‘hints’ or stories in the book/s are pointing to the same geographical locations. Are they subtle or explicit?

            2. On another point, I think the hints in the book coincide to reveal the correct wwwh/first clue. I don’t see the complicated route of needing to have hints help with clues further along the clue path.

            Show some evidence with the hints or any comment from Forrest confirming that his hints will only help with the first clue and not any other.

            With the help of Zap’s findings and confirmation that there are more than 10 instances of this backward ‘riddles’, I just showed on my post how multiple things that Forrest have written could be pointing to a line in the poem. I’m not even claiming they are hints just yet, only exploring the possibility that they could be and if they are how will they help us decipher the clues. What does it mean exactly? not there yet, but the evidence of the multiple backward phrases are there, easy to find and also the direct relation to that one line in the poem.

          • Sure, Oz…

            Point 1: I’ll let each searcher decide if they think these references are hints, and if so, if they are subtle or explicit.

            Story one…Robert Redford did write a book. In his book, he explored a few well known places in the Rocky Mountains.

            Story two…John Charles whatever. Many a searcher has figured out there is one individual from the past who this story icould be referring to without a doubt (removing doubt includes the part of the story with what his mother said). Find out who that individual is and the main areas he travelled on his explorations. Find the one major place where those two individual’s travels intersect on the treasure map. There’s your X on a map. Imo, the correct wwwh is real close by. Also, I believe the first stanza gives a tougher riddle/puzzle to solve for the same area. That’s why the route is easier to solve the hints in ttotc than going alone with the poem.

            Point 2…f’s definitions of what a clue and hint are and what they do for us are the determining factors. A clue gets a searcher closer to the tc. So by definition, a hint can’t do that or they would be clues. There’s one more thing to keep in mind. A clue in the poem gets us closer to the tc from the starting point of the clue path, not from your home or mine. We know the clues start with the first clue of wwwh. So anything before that has to be a hint. Conversely no hint can help a searcher anywhere between clue 1-9, imo.

            Having a hint confirm a clue once properly figured out goes against the definitions that f put out, imo. Someone can be lucky and get a proper solution to a clue than find a hint later on that coincides but I don’t think that has to be the only way it can work. One can find a hint in ttotc first, find a second hint in another story that also pinpoints to the same location but from a totally different story or angle.

          • FD,

            I see what you did there. It seems to me that you are actually trying to find a place putting more weight on the so called hints from outside the poem than from the poem itself. That took zero skill to solve the clue, in fact, there is no need to solve ‘begin it where waters halt’. All I need is to find more than one mention of any place (directly or indirectly) within the search area and lets call that place (or really close) warm waters halt. Did Mark Twain, Hemmingway or Salinger wrote of that place?

            Forrest mentions many rivers like the Firehole, the Madison, the Gallatin, etc. in his writings. He also said that Eric Sloane painted and wrote lots of books in his lifetime. If I find out that Sloane painted or wrote something about the Madison river could I make that now my wwh? or someplace close to it? No explanation needed of what -biwwwh- is, only that is close to that other place I secretly found other connections to. You seem to think is that easy.

            That will also explain why you think that hints only point to the first clue, because hints only point to places and that cannot be after the first one or it will be a clue and not a hint since is taking you closer to the chest.

            Thanks for the explanation.

          • The problem with the random John Charles connection is that his mom called him a “son of a bitch”….that does not mean “bastard” I dont think. So that whole line of thought is completely invalid.

          • Hey Oz, I don’t think you saw what I did there. You said “That took zero skill to solve the clue, in fact, there is no need to solve ‘begin it where waters halt’.

            That’s not what I said in my post. I said I think there is a riddle/puzzle in stanza one that is tougher to figure out than the hints in ttotc but takes you to same locale where the correct wwwh is nearby.

            I mean, the first stanza has the word hint in it. Hint= hint like begin= begin.

            Good luck trying to figure out the correct wwwh without the first stanza and/or the hints in ttotc.

          • Jonsey, it does.

            Bastard = “a person born of parents not married to each other.” Which is what how JC was conceived.

            Bitch = a lewd or promiscuous woman.

            Because Forrest said it was “ironic” that John Charles mother refered to him as a SOB, that means it was referring to JC as an illegitimate child, which is a bastard. So basically his mom was calling herself a whore for cheating on her husband to conceive JC.

            That fact haunted JC throughout his political career. In those days cheating on a spouse was not something people talked about.

            Having said that, I think that the entire story hints at the word “Fremont” as in County. It is reenforced by the fact that he was in the same areas as the others such as Meek, Bridger, Russell, and Carson to name a few others. Same with Cassidy. Oh also Franklin, but not the one who flew the kite, the one who was one of the first residents in the county I speak of. I won’t say more because of a certain set of ears.

            And yes, I think the book TTOTC, although not required, is an absolute must if you expect to find the right starting point in your lifetime.

          • Don’t understand how one can say something is a random connection in the Chase, especially on this topic…lol.

            Also don’t think because someone doesn’t think so about something that renders that whole line of thought completely invalid. Double lol.

          • Well….when one of the premises (in this case “son of a bitch” meaning “born out of wedlock’) required for the conclusion is false…then the argument is invalid.

            Something is said to be random when its not related/ connected.

            Sure the phrase “son of a bitch” and “bastard” may both be common vulgar explicatives sometimes interchanged with other expletives to increase the vulgarity of a statement……..but “son of a bitch” doesnt mean “born out of wedlock”. It just doesnt. So basing an argument for John Charles in TTOTC to be a J.C. from history because one found a J.C. from history was born out of wedlock, while the one in TTOTC was called a son of a bitch is both a random and invalid conclusion.

          • You said…when one of the premises (in this case “son of a bitch” meaning “born out of wedlock’) required for the conclusion is false…then the argument is invalid. It doesn’t have to be as you spin it. You said “son of a bitch”. I started with the term bitch.

            You actually said it yourself here…Sure the phrase “son of a bitch” and “bastard” may both be common vulgar explicatives sometimes interchanged with other expletives to increase the vulgarity of a statement…they can also be interchanged to camoflauge preciseness such as in a treasure hunt. I don’t know if you get that since you haven’t brought it up.

            To start with, I focused on one of the words, bitch, not son of a bitch. That means a lewd or immoral woman which is in line with the other term, bastard, when looking at the times that John Charles Fremont was born and raised. It also is a general term which means it might not be as precise as the other term but it fits the mold.

            If I say who is the great sportsman in Wisconsin that won’t be available for the playoffs that are starting soon then some can figure out who I’m referring to. If I say it in less general terms more people will get it sooner…who is the NFL qb shut down for the season and with it the hopes of the fans in Wisconsin.

            So it’s not proven to be a random and invalid conclusion. Especially since you’re not taking a big picture look at this. It’s not a random connection when I bet you can’t name one other person that has ever lived on earth (and that’s 108 billion people) that has the same two names of John Charles __(?)__, was born of an immoral woman and has a connection to the Chase treasure map in the Rocky Mountains. Be my guest and let us all know who else you find….

          • You said…when one of the premises (in this case “son of a b” meaning “born out of wedlock’) required for the conclusion is false…then the argument is invalid. It doesn’t have to be as you spin it. You said “son of a b”. I started with the term b and one of its definitions.

            You actually said it yourself here…Sure the phrase “son of a b” and “b*****d” may both be common vulgar explicatives sometimes interchanged with other expletives to increase the vulgarity of a statement…they can also be interchanged to camoflauge preciseness such as in a treasure hunt. I don’t know if you get that since you haven’t brought it up.

            To start with, I focused on one of the words, b, not son of a b. The definition I used was a lewd or immoral woman which is in line with the other term, b*****d, when looking at the times that John Charles Fremont was born and raised and how others viewed someone being born out of wedlock and the respective mother. It also is a general term which means it might not be as precise as the other term but it fits the mold.

            If I say who is the great sportsman in Wisconsin that won’t be available for the playoffs that are starting soon then some can figure out who I’m referring to. If I say it in less general terms more people will get it sooner…who is the NFL qb shut down for the season and with it the hopes of the fans in Wisconsin.

            So it’s not proven to be a random and invalid conclusion as they can be shown to be talking about the same subject. On top of that, you’re not taking a big picture look at this. It’s not a random connection when I bet you can’t name one other person that has ever lived on earth (and that’s over 108 billion people) that has the same two names of John Charles and a third name that can very well be the one referred to in TTOTC as whatever (camouflage), was born of an immoral woman (in the eyes of others back in that time period) and has a connection to the Chase treasure map in the Rocky Mountains. Be my guest and let us all know who else you find….

          • Why would I try to find another 150 year old explorer born out of wedlock to compare to a elementary school boy in the 1930s in Texas who was called a SOB by his mom? Then I too would be guilty of making an unsound, invalid argument.

            The fact that SOB doesnt mead born out of wedlock just makes the argument unsound….even IF you were to assume that it WAS true (as it could still establish validity) youd need that and the other premesis to logically lead to the conclusion.

            John Charles in TTOTC was born out of wedlock (assumed true)
            John C. Fremont born 150 years prior who explored over half the united states was also born out of wedlock (assumed true)

            Therefore: John Charles in TTOTC is J.C. from history.

            Dude. Its unsound, invalid, and entirely random. Its a bad argument.

            The analogy with sports is even worse….you give a team comtext time period etc. I could name an exporer with the same first name as that guy in the last 200 years that crossed the same state qould you then reason that the explorer was related.to.the football player?

            And the statistics are worse than the illogical argument. I wont even go into that.

          • *you asked why I said the argument was random and not a valid argument. That is why.

            It doesnt mean its not imaginitive or thought provoking. No need to get your underwear in a jumble.over it. Its just an invalid argument with faulty statistics…way better to back it up with fun stories and contextual illusions like youve done well! Just dont think the logic/math route are a good.cboice as they dont pan out.

          • Actually I’m very happy with my statements and your inability to counter them with any substance. You can keep trying to convince others otherwise but I think you won’t be successful with that. I mean, even you can’t spin that the b word has a definition of immoral woman and many people back in the time of John Charles Fremont had that opinion of the mothers of illegitimate children. But you can keep trying.

            Look what I found…One gross historical trend in social attitudes and public policy concerning illegitimacy has been the gradual change from the child to the mother (and quite recently to the father) as the target of censure.

          • Oh Boy this is a lot of logic for a Saturday morning. 🙂 What I do know is Forrest said “using logic” but he also said “Imagination is more important than knowlege” imo

          • Actually FD…you said
            “Don’t understand how one can say something is a random connection in the Chase, especially on this topic…lol.

            Also don’t think because someone doesn’t think so about something that renders that whole line of thought completely invalid. Double lol.”

            I then attempted to explain logic, validity, what makes an argument valid /sound….so you could understand as you requested. Its apparent you arent familiar with what logic and validity even means nor.understand statistics and randomness. I tried to explain but I cant dumb it down any more. I’m not here to teach eighth grade. I said its an entirely invalid argument and it is. Plain and simple. I will not continue to explwin to.you as its getting painful to even try. Google validity yourself or get a book on logic and statistics. This is stupid.

          • @Ken….I actually do believe the boy may be a descendan5 of James Cash Penney. The family lived right near the elementary school at the same time period. Whule the first store was in Kemmerer, WY, the Texas store was the first one to pioneer the glass olive jar christmas displays. Some of the old Bell jars used for the olives also have a very similar GMC logo (the one the mason jars used before it changed to Bell) to the one f found on the flask from the golf scrapbook. I doubt it’ll lead to the chest….but cheers to JC Penney ;)…nice catch!

        • *you asked why I said the argument was random and not a valid argument. No, I did not ask you why you said the argument was random.

          “The fact that SOB doesnt mean born out of wedlock just makes the argument unsound.” Clearly you didn’t read my post where I explained the difference between what you are saying and what I mean. I stick by my statement and how I explained it. You not including that explanation hurts your case, not mine.

          And I didn’t say you had to find a 150 year old explorer to compare. I said anyone in the world ever. Don’t paint yourself into a corner by narrowing down your findings to that time period. Plenty of others to choose from. I’m still waiting for another person with 3 names that is a well enough known person that fits the bill…….

          • I’m sorry guys – I just can not see Forrest embedding hints that relate to SOB, B***h or any such vulgarity. Not saying that Forrest is a prude, but I just don’t think that he would want that kind of a hint lasting 1,000 or 10,000 years.

            Keep it simple guys – Keep it simple. JMO JDA

          • I don’t understand, JDA. Forrest can write about a SOB in TTOTC but it can’t have any deeper connection than just being about a SOB? That doesn’t make sense to me. So just bringing up a SOB in f’s story is better?

          • The one thing I noticed is the “t” is silent in the in the third word of SoB and the “d” is silent in Knowledge. Now I am messing with a Nazareth song in my head. 🙂

          • I found this too…

            https://books.google.com/books?id=ufitAAAAQBAJ&pg=PA169&lpg=PA169&dq=were+woman+considered+immoral+in+the+1750%E2%80%99s+who+gave+birth+out+of+wedlock&source=bl&ots=LsoBgAl0V0&sig=7cqDnSJxUYcRawwTnD2W6opSLDs&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwj0raa2zKDYAhXNSN8KHcHVAAYQ6AEIFDAD

            In part it says, By the early 19th Century, several communities were even petitioning state governments to enact harsher bastardy laws. South Carolina residents claimed that poor and “IMMORAL” women were producing “Base, Loose, Vagabond, Ungoverned and Unlearned children” that become a strain on local poor relief, and they demanded that these mothers of bastard children should be required to come forward and admit their immorality to local officials.

          • You really think there was never any one in the world that was illigetamate and named john charles besides Fremont?

            I wont even dignify that even with a response or be baited into.further conversation. Smh.

          • Not another someone that is well known enough that we can figure out he spent time on f’s treasure map…like I said before.

            Smh at all the details you leave out. Triple lol.

          • Merry Christmas, JDA.

            I just don’t think our opinions are gonna be the governing factor on what f used as a hint.

          • Possible SOB candidate…
            Because he was successful and I blame him personally for all of my wife’s shopping habits. You may consider JC Penney. Look him up folks and I believe he may even be the best candidate “if” one wants to pick the “JC” story out of a hat.
            I’m pretty sure he wasn’t illegitimate…but who can really say for sure?

          • Me saying I don’t understand something is not the same thing as a request.

            That’s like strike six. You’re double out.

          • Goodness! I won’t force the issue…I tend to mess things all up when I do. Sounds like there is an underlying issue other than the thread going on…so carry on. Pardon my attempt/s to lighten things up. Have a nice Holiday !

          • Yeah Jonesy…there is a long list of other “aberrations” that more closely tie Penney than the other mentioned “JC”…but the subject is dead for me…couldn’t be more moot.
            Have nice Holiday.

          • Try the late John Charles Carter for the “Whatever Kid” – famous American actor and a bit of an outdoorsman. Not born out of wedlock (I don’t think), but a tangled parental and whatever-style naming history in his past.

            The idea that shaky hints to Fremont and Redford are individually intentional, collectively connected, and designed to point to a specific area near a WWWH . . . seems to me like a lotta angels dancing on a pinhead, there.

            Nothing wrong with South Pass or the Green River as search areas, though. I’ve spent a lot of outdoor time in that Wyo/Utah/Colorado tri-state corner area, some of it even chase-related.

            In later expeditions Fremont poked at the Continental Divide waaay south of South Pass too. I’m very fond of the whole Colorado River drainage as a place to be, and (for the last few years) to search, too.

            Jake

          • Jake –

            I don’t read every comment on this blog. Who has the time right?

            I do skim comments that aren’t directed to me looking for key words that jump out. And here we are.

            If it’s relevant to you I believe the Fenn Clovis Cache comes from the Green River Valley near the T.

            Lugnutz

  55. We’ll guy’s that is me signing off until after the New Year.

    But before I go I would just like to say that I wish all you guy’s that are on the chase a very Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year.

    I hope that Santa is good to you all and that you get what you wished for.

    Ronnie the Scot

    • Ronnie, Merry Christmas to you and your friend, Haggis McBaggis. I hope you have a really good one.

    • Merry Christmas to you, too, Ronnie. I always liked those chocolate gold coins that we used to hang from the Christmas tree – I think they bring good luck!

      Thanks for your very special posts!

  56. I have changed my gravatar.
    Don’t be alarmed.

    With all the Scottish talk of late I thought I would use a picture of myself in kilt next to the ‘ol Mini. the current 2012 mini is green but has 4 doors.

    Marry Christmas and Happy Holidays to all!
    Lugnutz

  57. So as we approach the completion of another year (and another season) in the Chase, we can reflect on what we’ve learned, the search trips made, and the experiences out in the Rockies. What a year and what a chase this has been.

    Some have searched with family and friends not finding a treasure chest but, rather, strengthening the relationships with those in places they would never had gone. Speaking of places that searchers would never have gone – we have those who have taken themselves and their character to new places. We now have “Viking” women searchers who started out scared of animals on the trail but now have lost the fear and feel right at home. We also have those who have a great sense of accomplishment – like standing in the middle of the mountain stream with nothing in hand to show for the effort but so much gained in heart, in character, and in the mountain experience. There are those who have taken their children to the mountains for the first time to see the wonder in their eyes.

    So as we close another year in the chase, I say Thanks to the puzzle-master! Thanks for creating the real life Treasure Hunt where some old guys (and gals) can act like children again. Thanks for providing a challenging and thought-provoking maze worthy of it’s most difficult intentions. The X will be drawn on map one day but, until then, Thank You Forrest for such an enjoyable ride through the Rockies!

  58. In the spirit of reheating the re-hash again and again,
    an alternate meaning of Fashion Maven is Method Expert.
    Someone was on it a long time ago.
    Happy Holidays

  59. Most of you are familiar with Wildbirder and her husband on this blog. They have been searchers for several years now. Searching slowed down when David ended up in the hospital after a fall…
    Anyway…financial woes have caught up with them so they started a GoFundMe page.
    They are fellow searchers, good folks with big hearts.
    If you have a spare $5 in your pocket you could sure do worse than sending it their way…
    https://www.gofundme.com/ourwonderfullife

    • Wildbirder, I just want you to know that my prayers are with you and David during this tough time….. and praying for a speedy recovery….
      Until next time…. see ya my friend….

  60. Not sure if it’s gonna work…but…when I helped my grand daughter write her Christmas List to Santa, I wrote in…..A good map to find Forrest Fenn’s treasure. If it does work….I can’t wait to get little Scarlett out there searching in the Rockies. If it doesn’t work….I can’t wait to get little Scarlett out there searching in the Rockies! She’s my special talisman….

  61. Happy Holidays to all… and EOY time to dump some stuff: Are some names deduce-able from the source material? EX: 1) From the first paragraph on the first page (a very bold place): ‘stir your spirit’ = a circular movement, “a smile” = arc segment, “in one of your dreams” dream = enchantment…. Yikes! EX: 2) From Father On The Banco: They ‘burned’ the mortgage papers, it was a ‘religious’ experience … Angel Fire? Not sayin’ these are correct, just sayin’… show me some others. I think there’s not enough attention paid to Fenn’s humor & word-play along the rolling yardage of this blog.

    Another that entertains me is imagining I step outside my car, & see an interesting feature across the ravine, possibly the blaze, and I ask myself “How the heck am I gonna get there?” The joker-poet answers: “Look quickly down — them feet gotta walk babe”. Or maybe I’m looking at a petroglyph & quickly down I see my shoe tips beyond my belly looking just like the outline of the hill and 2 mountain tops on the petroglyph; & also like the little girl’s coffee cup that nearly hid her eyebrows before she told Fenn to follow her.

    I do love that bison skull with the dried grass stuffed into his eye sockets & I want to throw out a big THANK YOU to all the silent lurkers for their restraint. I fear when we posters get to the pearly gates, the admission price is gonna be to re-read all our own past posts to a choir of very busy angels. The wait line will be very long. I have lots more to say but I’ll bless you with my silence now. Good cheer to all. OS2

  62. Merry Christmas, All. If you have Once Upon a While (or if not, just check SB 49), in his notes on ground turmeric he writes “The label doesn’t say what it is but something in there is dead.” A bit morbid, but I’m wondering if this is a reference to Eric Sloane (turm-ERIC).

  63. ****** ken’s plan:
    “If it does work….I can’t wait to get little Scarlett out there searching in the Rockies.
    If it doesn’t work….I can’t wait to get little Scarlett out there searching in the Rockies!” ******

    Sounds to me like you’ve thought of everything, ‘Pops – strong work!!!

    You, l’il Scarlett, (and all the resta y’all), make it a terrific Kri’Mas!
    And STAY WARM!

    JAK (and all of us raven clan)

  64. Merry Christmas searchers!
    The chase has added a couple of fun elements to my christmas.#1, it’s really fun to talk about Forrest,and the chase, with family members.#2, it’s gonna be fun to show my relatives the arrowheads I’ve found this past summer after Forrest put that first one in my hand..I have all kinds of cool thoughts when I hold that mammoth tusk in hand.
    Loving the chase and all it has to offer!

  65. In the SB 49 I noticed he brings attention to ” cloves” a lot. Also, now I have noticed this is the third time I’ve seen him write, ” I don’t want to talk about it”.

    Thanks for pointing out SB 49 ,Zap.

    • I dont know if this is one of your three but ive been looking for those refrences too and was pointed to the one in the graciella story Peggy walks in his office and asks why he’s reading the bible…he “didnt want to talk about it.”

      • Jonsey1. Yes, good eye!
        “I don’t want to talk about it”
        1) It’s the ” saved especially for the solver …”.
        2) The Gracella SB
        3) SB 49 .

        They are different as separates but he says the same line in all three.I don’t know why they equal the same response or if it is helpful in any way. I can draw a lot of interesting eludes in them separately but not insofar as giving a singular reason of the meaning as being the same for all three.

        Right now all I can equate the saying , ” I don’t want to talk about it” in these three instances is ; this means ” special” or ” secret”. Like a …shhhhh…!

        The third brand label of Clove spice with three clove brands pictures is-Spice Island. Then we have Turmeric of the ginger family at the “I don’t want to talk about it” saying.

        Maybe referring to Gillian’s island lol.

        I dunno. Still thinking.

          • Th eres also pg60 in TTOTC in looking for Lewis and Clark…”There was almost nothing, but we did shoit one animal that I promised not to talk about”. Not same as “I don’t want to talk about” but close….and certainly a secret.

            I half wondered in the bible “I dont wamt to talk about it” story if maybe it wasn’t his old friemds bible with the poem from bonnie and Clyde inside. Surely a HUGE stretch just the only other time I remember him mention bible reading. Probably just a complete random connection though fun that it had a secret too.

          • Ya, you mentioned this a few days ago. It’s similar enough. Some may view this focus as having nothing to do with assisting in a solve. But I see any repititious pattern as relevant- I relate these to a form of profiling evidence towards a conviction lol. Even the SB 50 with the double omega at the end- as Dal said in that thread that FF asked him to put them there. I don’t see much aid to anything in figuring out the omegas but it’s curious. I haven’t look at all the SB by far , so I don’t know if any other SB’s have the DO’s.

            That’s where FF said to Dal- “the relevance of the double omegas will go to the grave with the man who wrote the poem”. Why the third person speak? Easily just a way of saying it that way and nothing more. IMO . But nothing wrong with this old stuff getting a new focus 🙂 .

            I am one that is really interested in the mystery thing in the chest- more than anything else. It must be something very very profound. Why doesn’t he want to talk about it. IMO .

            Whatever he doesn’t want to talk about, it has been safe for 7 years. Time is on his side so far in that regard. IMO .

          • There is one interview where be says something about he’s 99.99 peecent sure that it hadn’t been found, because you can never actually be 100%…but that he’d bet his kingdom on it.(or somethikg very close to it) I too, am curious about the item though dont think it relates to the solve.
            Anyhow…that comment struck a funny chord with me…like maybe its some type of trade for his home or gallery or one horse land and cattle or land rights or whatever else one may call “kingdom”. You could probably find the quote by searching for kingdom on tarry scant. Probably unrelated though, just one of those things that jumped out with me and still sticks in my mind.

          • It could be something of the things you guess about, I think those things are possible too. How he would know if someone finds it is interesting too. He has said some reasons in other interviews , like someone would just most likely announce it. Then there is this quote answer from him:

            I found this on tarryscant ( Moby Dickens) :

            Q”How would you know that it hasn’t already been found? ”

            FF-“I’ve been asked that question a lot… I really don’t want to answer the question because that would be an answer that I don’t really want to reveal. But I can tell you that no one has found the treasure. Yes sir?”

            How ever he would know, I wonder if the means would last another generation.

            Interesting it is though. All these things can be linked together , knitted, in this puzzle . Whether it all appears rational to a solve or not. They all click together piece by piece. In my opinion. I look at all things, no matter how fringe. IMO .

          • When F said she would like it, I thought about a diamond. Diamonds are a way to a woman’s heart, well most.

  66. To all old and new hunters of a golden dream to come true for only one, all others the treasure of a hunt in the outdoors with a lot of fun.

    Happy Holidays and a good New Year!!

  67. I read a little while ago about someone who asked Fenn if a knowledge of history was important to solving the poem. Fenn seemed to sidestep the question more than once. Does anyone know where can I find that interview or chat? Thanks in advance.

    • Here you go: “Mr. Fenn, is there any level of knowledge of US history that is required to properly interpret the clues in your poem. ~Steve R
      No Steve R, the only requirement is that you figure out what the clues mean. But a comprehensive knowledge of geography might help.” f

      • Thanks JDA, that’s the one I was looking for. Odd how geography can mean the movement and migration of people due to natural resources, which to me is kind of like history.

        • Also, perhaps the native american’s weren’t considered part of the US, so their history couldn’t be a part of US History?

    • TSAL-
      Rather than ask folks for help…you can find most of this yourself at
      http://www.tarryscant.com
      Just type “history” in the search mechanism and his quotes will come up…from several sources…and other interesting things he has said about history..

    • TSAL, I like your instincts on this one. I also feel f sidestepped the question about U.S. history. F answered about no requirement, not about history. There’s multiple ways f’s answer points to some history possibly being useful. Like you said, a comprehensive knowledge of geography has history attached to it. Secondly, anything not required doesn’t mean it’s not useful.

      • I don’t think F sidestepped the question. I took it that geography will help you more. Sure everything has a history. I think history is not relevant to the solve at all.

        I see nothing in the poem that points to any kind of history, its simply a map that you have to figure out via the poem. Everything about the poem relates to mountains, canyon, creeks and wood and names of places in the RM which leads to the chest.

        Just say’n

    • I personally think if you are exploring geography, trying to get a feel for what existed in 1930 vs what didn’t you wander directly into history. And it’s mighty interesting doing so I would add.

      • For instance, I ran across a company operating in central Colorado in the 1910’s called “Hidden Treasure Mining Company”. How cool is that when it’s a few miles from a solve?

        • That is the sad part, there are a lot of people that don’t usually venture out into back areas to discover those things that have a back story.

          • Could be something like that. There is already some diomonds in it. I think he might mean Gaia- Mother Earth. Native Americans refer to Mother Earth as Gaia by name. His church is in the mountains.. IMO.

  68. Things come in threes (go with it)…my three favorite stories from TTOTC: my war for me, 17 dollars a square inch and…important literature. These seem to hold the oddest abberations to me, notice I didn’t say hints, they just seem so out of place with the rest of the book, they make you double take and re-read them.

  69. As I posted up-thread just this afternoon…. not enough attention is being paid to Fenn’s tasty morsels of humor & word-play…. this Dancing With the Stars thing knocked my socks off tonight…

    Reading UNDAUNTED COURAGE by S.Ambrose… Lewis Meriwether connects with Shoshone Chief Cameahwait & Sacajawea discovers he is her long lost brother.

    Ambrose writes … “What a piece of luck that was. No novelist would dare invent such a scene. As James Ronda writes “The stars had danced for Lewis and Clark” “

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