The Nine Clues…….Part Fiftyfive


This is the place to discuss the nine clues…For instance:
What are the nine clues…
Is the first clue “Begin it where warm waters halt” ?

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1,150 thoughts on “The Nine Clues…….Part Fiftyfive

  1. Some how I think we’ re all walking down the path FF has us walking and we haven’t figured out what he did yet. Still trying though!!!


  2. Scott W.
    “So, Jake – if there can be one and only one hoB on the map, what would it be that would guarantee there could be no other possible hoB? ”
    Obviously there is only one hoB in Fenn’s poem.
    I was just pointing out that in other peoples minds including mine, there are hundreds……
    Maybe hob is a line, but I like to think it is an X marks the spot of hoB.

    • Scott,
      I agree and HoB being a line would make sense as a possibility. Wouldn’t rule it out.

      The “map” I worked out has HoB as a physical landmark as the other clues.

      When attempting to put myself in f’s shoes as the one creating a treasure hunt, I envisioned it as making a journey. That journey leads you to the location and narrows the search down as you go. What fun would it be to put all of the clues in one spot?

      Flying out on wednesday for my first search. Good luck everyone!

    • Jake, interestingly the Spanish pirates and Jesuit mappers of old never marked the correct trail with an X. Always placed the proverbial X at a distance away to confirm the path but never the exact location. But who knows what Forrest did! LOL – he’s a sly fox running with hounds and ducks too;-)

  3. Nine sentences=nine clues. Don’t leave a word out.

    I went up to the collected works bookstore to pick up a copy of the Yellowstone map. I needed a good map to get a better idea of what you Yellowstone searchers were talking about. The map that they have there is good. I looked at all the place names and I thought that there is just no way the chest could be anywhere else.

  4. So this is Part Fiftyfive? We sure are a wordy group.

    PS :
    on September 26, 2015 at 9:25 pm said:

    Here’s some advice. You should always share everything you find with your fellow searchers. Doing so broadens the discussion and encourages feedback from others. Except for the lurkers I suppose.

    Scott W.

    LOL Scott! That IS the worst advice I have received – can I use that? 🙂

  5. What would be worthwhile is to figure out the general big picture Fenn describes in his poem.Once this is identified , hob
    ,and even wwh become ” local” definitions,,,but setting out to find a “global” hob is quite impossible as there are numerous hobs in the rockies…I believe this has been the problem of the chase in past years..


    • I get the sense that people think it’s hopeless to consider the “Big Picture” as far as all the perfectly acceptable places that could fit “Where Warm Waters Halt” and/or “Home of Brown”. But you might be surprised. I spent over a month doing exactly that for just one of the four states (not that important which one). If you had only the poem to go on (and maybe I’ll thrown in TTOTC), it would be a daunting task indeed. But when you throw in all the extra info that Forrest has provided, the task becomes an order of magnitude easier. Don’t get me wrong, it’s still extraordinarily difficult, but now a systematic map search (as perhaps Fenn intended) becomes just barely doable without going blind or insane.

      Consider that there are only 4 states in play now (and in fact, only ~portions~ of those states) — searchers didn’t know that 5 years ago. And they also didn’t know just how little he had to walk from where he parked. If you spend any time looking at topo maps, you will discover just how little of the West is accessible by any kind of road. Now throw in the altitude restrictions, and perhaps some aesthetics like canyons, forests and streams, and there is really no reason that the entire four-state area can’t be armchair searched for the place or places that best match the clues.

      • Zap I agree with you completely and I’ve done exactly what you suggest. It does greatly narrow down the places where the chest can be. One can also use GIS information to eliminate additional areas using different criteria. For example public vs private land, types of foliage, inside city limits, etc.; which changes the probability of the location depending on how one looks at the conditions of the solution. It is fun and interesting to plug in different information and watch the map change.

        The problem with maps even when overlaid with satellite images is it’s very difficult to understand the actual conditions on the ground……For example a road/path can be smooth sailing or with ruts and washboarding so bad it take several hours just to travel a few miles.

        I still have a few problems even though I know where the chest is:

        One problem is how far away from the target areas do the clues start. This greatly expands the map again; since I have to know where to start to end up in the target area.

        I have found some solutions where the clues are also in the target area…..The question I always end up asking myself is when is a solution viable enough to go look. Do all nine clues have to be on a map before one physically searches an area?

        • Hey Goof?

          Are you prepared to nuke yourself? 🙂

          You wrote: “I still have a few problems even though I know where the chest is.”

          Just ribbing. I think everyone here understands you have no clue regarding the location. 🙂

          IMO, of course.

          Scott W.

          • HA!…….Actually Scott, I have lots and lots of clues; 🙂 and like everyone else I know where the chest is (in general)…….; the problem is narrowing it down to a ten inch box.

        • I don’t often answer a question with another question but what I’m asking myself now is does some of the clues have to be solved correctlly before its possible to even come close to solve the remainder?

        • Hi Goofy — the GIS approach is certainly a good one, if you have the software and the expertise to use it effectively (which it certainly sounds like you do). I opted to go the old-school route and scan every topo myself, fearing that if I depended on software I might inadvertently eliminate/obscure a clue or clues through improper selection of GIS criteria.

          I will say in my map searches so far (which cover over 58,000 square miles), I have not found a single solution that fits all the clues. Dozens of WWWH’s and HoB’s and canyon’s down, plus matches to many other clues and constraints, but not one location or contiguous path that is even close to fitting all.

  6. Though I always thought hob to be a local definition,I did struggle on whether wwh is a global or local definition.Briefly for sometime I thought wwh was a global definition,,but later I realized that there are many wwh in the Rockies as well ,,,hence wwh must be a local definition contingent on the big picture the poem draws.


    • TT – the Wolf has an excellent solution based on Canada being a regional hob.

      Here are a few others which have all been discussed on the blogs…

      “Global” hob’s:
      – terra firma
      – Polluted ozone
      – Brown state of mind

      Regional hob’s:
      – National Parks
      – BLM lands
      – NFS lands
      – Clovis Anzick 1 child – all North American tribes linked thru DNA

      In Montana:
      – Montana has most NA reservations in North America.
      – Below Anzick Clovis boy site, north of Livingston.
      – Brown canyon
      – Browning
      – Molly Brown bar in Bozeman
      – mines which extract brown color elements
      – Burlington Rail own

      Local hob’s: bison, brown trout, bear, moose, elk, beaver,

      Poem’s hob:
      below word “home”
      Below word “Brown”
      B in row N
      B row’n
      B.R. Own
      Below the B in row N
      Below the Butt in the poem (look below the word but- B tftw

      (As I only search Montana, I can’t offer WY, CO, or NM)

  7. OS,
    Pointing back to your comment on pages 128 &129
    “Wow… not what I had in mind at all… I meant more like dragging your finger across the spine to the facing page… .from #’s and Mondays to a chest for a Book of Days, which in my casual search I understood to be either A poem by Ovid, An 1869 compendium of very interesting trivia, or A book of accounts. In the context of the Chase, it was Mondays (moon/luna) and accounts (bills, deeds, & measures) that had my interest.”
    My noticing the pages being joined even though it was not the first two pages or the last was an added tidbit of info. F does not want to go down the center he wants to go/bounce off the edges? Other possible reasons? Don’t believe other pages are like this, although I did a quick flip of the pages so might have missed one.

    • Uken, Thanks for your comment.

      I didn’t notice the glued page until you guys brought it up, and I didn’t check it out until I read your replies. My first thought was perhaps some revision of the text had to be glued-in. Second thought was, in the printing process the paper stock runs out near page 128 and new stock had to be attached there.

      My TTOTC says “4th printing”, paper stock: Platinum Silk 100 lb. text. … It is 147 pages WITH a glue-in at pg 128-9.

      My TFTW says “ First printing, 3,000 copies”’, paper stock: Platinum Silk 100 lb. text. … It is 264 pages WITHOUT a glue-in.

      Both are by Starline Printing, Abq.NM and Roswell Bookbinding, Phx.AZ

      My “thoughts” are totally as a layman to printing operations.

    • OS what pages did you say appear to be glued in again? In my 4th edition it is 129-132.

      Since my copy has already lost it’s Very Fine condition I pulled the pages out… They pulled out easily… Underneath is what appears to be leftover pieces of pages cut out? Why did he cut the pages out and replace them?

      Anyone out there have another edition that doesn’t have pages glued in?

      • my pg 127-28 is glued at the spine to pg 129-30.

        Q?… Is a 4th edition the same as a 4th printing?

        I’d like to check the first printings and the last.

        I think it was Mindy who pointed out the cut & repeated use of the coins photo on pg 131…. the words decided and decision became interesting because ‘cide’ means to kill or cut.

        on pg 129, “So I decided to fill a TC …”, on pg 131, “Indecision is the key to flexibility” … the ‘cide” root means to kill or to cut. Somewhere I found a definition of ‘decide’ explained as the victory of one side over the other. A victory? The top of pg 129… “thee was no hero in me…”

        Maybe the poem on the next page needs to be cut in some way…. literal a puzzle of cut-up words.

        • The cut & pasted pages, the cut & pasted coins photo, the root of ‘decide’ being ‘to cut’ , and a decision to leave clues to a treasure preceding the poem, and “Indecision is the key to Flexibility” following the poem…. seems begging for attention. But I am not a serious searcher, so …

  8. Morning folks,
    Wow there’s been a lot to read… trying to catch up… whew!

    I was thinking about the many books searchers are writing during this Chase… Maybe they’ll help people in years to come (if we have not found the box,) providing a better understanding of what’s going on??? Who’s to say how long the Chase will last or this blog or me or you? Perhaps it’s a good thing some people put into print their ideas that were probably developed with the help of others??? Too, writing, publishing and promoting AIN”T easy. Good luck to those who try.

    Many thanks to all of you who sent well wishes, I am feeling much better!

    And now, smiling face 🙂 I have the strength today to write a little bit about my trip to Nambe, The Chimayo, and Abiqui, and then why I was there. I’m hoping it might help me or someone else strike a chord working on this type of solve.

    Mark H. Grateful to be here!

    • Mark~ Glad to hear you are feeling better. Can’t wait to read about your adventures and why you were there. Maybe you should write a book about your quest to find the gold.

      Good luck!

    • glad you are doing so well. glad we didn’t share our solve with you while you were recouping. LOL

  9. Ah, the irony! (don’t search here, it’s under 5000 ft elevation
    Do Eat here! Support local Bozeman business)

    Some have suggested “go in peace” sounds like a kid saying Go ‘Wimpy’s’
    Wimpy was a character in Popeye cartoons. Wimpy never paid up, and loved hamburgers.

    In 1942 Wimpy’s Palace was built in Bozeman
    It’s now the Western Cafe. Still owned by Wimpy’s LLC

    PropertyAddress:443 E MAIN ST
    PO BOX 232
    BOZEMAN, MT 59771-0232

    Subdivision:ROUSE 1ST ADD
    Legal Description:

    Please notice the irony, 1st addition ‘rouse’ Block F, Plat C5E
    even the document deed number starts with 242
    Listed at the property is a freezer that cools from 5-31 degrees.

    The Western Cafe is near the graveyard, Olive Street, a tea company, the Bozeman trail, and East fork Gallatin River.

    • Other funny finding. an airplane hanger near Madison River in montana is owned by Errol F. Brown (nice guy, don’t phone him, I already did that last year)

      • There are only a few hangers at Yellowstone Airport. They are near Madison River if your near is longer than my near. Maybe a few hundred feet. Maybe that is the home Brown?

          • I am scoping that area now w/GE. At this time I don’t see any hangers. I will keep searching 1 mile from Madison River route. If there is a hanger, there must be a very small runway, maybe not paved, but should be discernible with GE.

          • Scoped the Madison until elevation dropped below 5k’. No hangers, no airports within about a mile from Mad i son River from Yell Airport up to Enis. I think the home of Brown was more of a natural thing.

    • 42, You have done your home work. I will take your advice & have a bite there. I see where it is on Google Maps. Doesn’t look like they have Bison burgers there though.
      I’m not sure “go in peace” sounds like Go ‘Wimpy’s’
      However, I will not rule anything out at this point.
      There may be a connection, that I do not see.

      • Jake, it never sounded like go Wimpys to me either, but over the past two years Wimpy has made several appearances on th blogs – just thought this info was comical.

        If you’re in Bozeman you know that Teds Montana Grill has excellent bison burgers.

      • Jake – say Go in Peace” out loud 3 times, then say “Go Wimpys” three times out loud.

        It sure sounds the same to me, but to each his own.

        Scott W

        • OK, Q,
          I did what you said & does sound the same. But this statement is after the fact of finding the blaze & the treasure. The person who finds indulgence should go to Wimpy’s & buy everyone a hamburger today, I’ll gladly pay you Tuesday.

          • LOL, Jake.

            I’m thinking contiguously, not consecutively. There is a difference.

            The reason I share my ideas on this blog is because there are only two possibilities:

            1. It’s wrong and I need you guys to show me how it is wrong so I can move on.

            2. No one can show me that it is wrong, but discounts it as being incorrect anyway.

            I post ides and solves looking for the items that fall into category #2 and I welcome the feedback along the way.

            There are a lot of smart people here. It’s a hodgepodge of intellect and techniques. That’s why I come here.

            Scott W.

          • Jake,

            Contiguously, as in the edges; a sheet of paper versus one that is torn.

            See my explanation of the previous nine-clues thread.


          • Jake,

            I forgot to mention –

            IMO there are only two reasons Forrest used the word “contiguous”.

            1. He knows exactly what it means.

            2. He has no clue regarding the difference among the terms contiguous, consecutive or continuous.

            FYI – I was only looking at two of the above. Seeker stirred up the pot with with the third one.

            I opt for reason #1.

            Scott W.

    • The Wimpy I was referring to is way higher than 5000 feet. Wimpys Knob, also known as Albright Peak.

      Anyway – I posted my idea about Wimpy’s knob over a year ago and brought it back up over the last couple of days.

      I will let it rest now.

      Scott W

  10. Cody, WY has a Service Center for U P S – It’s known for its “big, brown” delivery trucks:

    The Company’s nickname is: ” Brown.”

    Love that town!

    • Yes, but UPS is known to move and consolidate its distribution centers. How long will they be at this location; or even in business?

      Scott W.

      • Seriously??

        I’ll give them a call in the morning to find out how long they’ve been doing business in the Cody, WY location.

        • SL – you’re right. UPS will be in business forever, and always have a distribution center in Cody. How could I be so stupid?

          Where did DHL go? They were pre-FedEx and UPS. I’m sure their hubs are in place just like they always were; we just can’t see them.

          Scott W.

          • My prediction – FedEx and UPS will fall to Amazon once they decide to deploy their own branded delivery service.

            Then, one day, Amazon will fall to someone else.

            It’s all about who is the best logistics company.

            Scott W

          • Um, Scott. I don’t believe that is true. UPS has been around for over 100 years. DHL, Purolator, airbonre express, Gelco couriers, where much later. FedX bought out Gelco in the 80’s to go international. [ all international courier ] all the others were from the 60ish, for the most part, most now are gone with the wind.

            The question is why would fenn use a “private company” as a clue? even though is may have been around for some time, there is no guarantee it will be 100 years or even tomorrow… Oh sure, we can look it up and find answers… but what is the connection to geography?

            I asked this question many moons ago. Do you [ the searchers ] take into considerations in your solves, 1000’s or more years down the road when it comes to clues in the poem?

            Most of what I have read is, most searcher hardly think of tomorrow, nevertheless 1000’s years. Sure, I have heard… research as an answer, But will that type of information… a private company… last that long?

          • Interesting tid bit… Who do you think is larger FedEx or UPS?

            We all use the term I will “FedEx” it to you…

            But in reality Ups is larger than Fedex… Now that is some good marketing!

          • Seeker,

            I think we are on the same page here. – A company cannot be a clue as there is no guaranteed future existence.

            That was my point.

            My bad if FedEx was around before DHL in the 1960’s. I didn’t bother look it up, and I still haven’t. Either way, I think the point was made.

            Scott W

  11. Justin, really sorry but I don’t recall making comments about a triangle – unless referring to TTOTC illustration showing f playing marbles. Three marbles are positioned in a v or triangle shape.
    No idea about a rock??

  12. Hey Dal, did I read that you posted a new contest thread to win a copy of Forrest’s new book about Leon Gaspard? I can’t find where it’s listed. Thank you!

  13. @anna very top right hand side ‘advice contest’ same line as ‘home’ and all the other main headings…

  14. I didn’t make it out on the expected search 🙁 Needed a Dr. Still need a Dr. Plans now are to search this Saturday. The weather was perfect this weekend for searching. I’m not sure of 6 days from now. Thanks for all of the well wishes from everyone. I shall carry those well wishes over to next weekend. I will head out to search wether I get a Dr. or not. I will just take the trek gently on the injury that I need the Dr. for. A good Dr. will be sought before Thursday. On a good note, Mrs. Slurbs plans to go with me on the next search! That makes me 🙂
    Time to catch up on about 200 comments on the blog…

  15. All below is IMO.

    Many Searchers are hung up on the fact that Forrest indicated that there was no cipher involved in his riddle.

    He didn’t say this specifically in the same way he did in a statement for example where he said the treasure chest wasn’t hidden in Utah. But he included the word ‘cipher’ within a list he submitted for Scrapbook 62.

    This list was mainly directed at mathematical / numerical solutions. I believe Forrest was fed up with people going down the route of investigating complex numerical patterns.

    There are items within the same list that conflict with the views of most Searchers .

    In Scrapbook 62 Forrest lists that a knowledge of ‘riddles’ won’t help anyone to find the treasure location.

    That’s an interesting one, the poem / treasure hunt is a riddle. If it wasn’t the chest would have been found straight away. So a knowledge of riddles must help Searchers to solve the poem / treasure hunt and find the location of the treasure. So why isn’t everyone getting upset about the inclusion of the word ‘riddles’?

    He also lists that a knowledge of ‘codes’ won’t help anyone to find the treasure location.

    The majority of Searchers believe that the poem is not a literal description that says ‘walk down a canyon and pick up a treasure chest’. For example: the clue ‘the home of Brown’. Most people think this is something other than a house with the name Brown stamped above the door.

    In other words it’s a cryptic clue amongst other cryptic references in the poem also known as ‘codes’ (or riddles whichever you prefer). So a knowledge of these must help Searchers to find the treasure location. So why isn’t everyone getting hung up about Forrest listing the word ‘codes’?

    Forrest’s Scrapbook 62 entry:

    ‘Some searchers overrate the complexity of the search. Knowing about head pressures, foot pounds, acre feet, bible verses, Latin, cubic inches, icons, fonts, charts, graphs, formulas, curved lines, magnetic variation, CODES, depth meters, RIDDLES, drones or CIPHERS, will not assist anyone to the treasure location, although those things have been offered as positive solutions. Excellent research materials are TTOTC, Google Earth, and/or a good map.f’

    In conclusion, those Searchers who rule out ‘ciphers’ must also rule out ‘riddles’ and ‘codes’ (the bases for all of their own solutions) which means Forrest spent 15 years writing 24 lines of text that say literally ‘walk down a canyon and pick up a treasure chest.’

    In reality part of Forrest Fenn’s RIDDLE is a simple CIPHER based on the answers to CRYPTIC clues.


    The White Knight (Andrew Briggs).

    • Having a hard time letting go of the cipher thing? Forrest said an average person can find the chest ( paraphrasing ) I’m a average joe and I can’t phantom ciphers or cryptic codes.
      I do commend your opinion but I have a hard time to swallow this solution but thank you

    • To be sure the poem is enigmatic and highly cryptic…..nevertheless it may not be ciphered in the sense we understand cipher (like the Beale codes).He may have made it enigmatic and cryptic using clever use of words in the poem and an implicit assumption of certain aspects of geography ,history, etc while
      at the same time keeping the poem seemingly simple ..
      All IMO


    • Andrew,

      All IMO

      I was going down the same path. Almost exactly the same…. up until I read the scrapbook 62 entry. Once I read ” NO cipher I quit that route. How would a kid help in an adult solve? That’s what forrest said is to have a kid look at it. How could a kid help with its imagination on a cipher solve? When I was doing the Lewis and Clark solve I was wishing I had some software to shorten my time as it was labor intense. After FF said “No cipher” I took his word on it. After that as we have seen here people have graciously given out such software and what they found. And so far nothing that we know of. I have yet to see your true breakdown of how you got to where you got….but i too came up with your solve (or we looked at it from the same view 8-9 mos ago). I too have a hard time letting go of a cipher solve as I was completely committed after FF said “there is a word that is Key”. So a cipher made complete sense to me. But as written above are my reasons to move on. Although I do agree with you on many points. I would like your opinion on this AB as we were on the same path.

    • WK –
      “…will not assist anyone to the treasure location.” This is the line you should be highlighting…imo.

    • Well Andrew there are many logical and reasonable replies on your solution page as to why, even if it is a cipher, you are grabbing at straws and creating clues to fit your particular vision of what the poem says.

      You are now in the last stage of the obsessed searcher, total disillusionment, which is a feeling of devastating disappointment and loss resulting from the discovery that something is not as good as one believed it to be.

      When the obsessed searcher is presented with over whelming evidence their solution is not viable their last gasp is to say Fenn is misleading everyone with what he has said. They simply cannot be wrong so Fenn must be.

      Fenn has said over and over and over the poem is straight forward, no subterfuge, etc. etc. You actually nailed it when you said;

      Forrest spent 15 years writing 24 lines of text that say literally ‘walk down a canyon and pick up a treasure chest.

      That is exactly what he has done. Created an incredibly difficult set of directions designed to get people off the couch and into wilderness to experience nature and the thrill of looking for something.

      Repeat after me; there are no codes, ciphers, or riddles in the poem.

      • Goofy
        I think you are misleading yourself and others too. Forrest did say that those have been offered as positive solutions. Its just up to the searcher to determine if a cypher or cipher is involved. If you think that there is no riddle in the poem, then I have no idea how you plan on solving it. And a code is literally a specification of words, numbers, letters or symbols, that replace other words letters, numbers, or symbols for the purpose of secrecy. If that were not the case then the poem would be straight forward. But since thousands of people cannot figure out what the words mean, or where they belong. Then there must be some sort of alternate meaning for each word or phrase in the poem that, creates a map and directions, leading to a secret place. That would be a “code”. The same goes for a riddle, as its a statement, question, or phrase, having a double or veiled meaning to put forth as a puzzle to be solved. I feel like if you have to “figure” out what something means (including the poem), then that requires the special knowledge needing to figure out the poem.

        • Hammertime,

          Words have more than one definition and we don’t know which definition is behind f’s statements. For example was he meaning no code using the definition for code is “a system for communication by telegraph, heliograph, etc., in which long and short sounds, light flashes, etc., are used to symbolize the content of a message: Morse code”

          So he may have given us a non-answer, or something to think about a bit more than on the surface. Even the possibility there is another meaning for code that can be used.


          • Hammer, I could certainly be wrong but I’m not misleading anyone any more than those that insist the poem is a code are misleading folks; it is simply how I look at the poem. Fenn has actually told us very little about the poem. I am simply believing what he has told us; it not a matter of whether I like it or not.

            He doesn’t seem to mind telling us where it’s not. Not in Utah, not in Idaho, not in a graveyard, etc.; he has told us there are no codes. Using your logic the chest could be in Utah, in a graveyard, under an outhouse, and WWWH is a dam.

            I agree with you that it is about figuring out what, possibly when and where the words have a specific meaning. I won’t argue semantics; if you want to call the definition or usage of a word a code it’s fine with me.

          • There are not many definitions of Utah or Idaho. However There are “You’s” and “I’s” all over the poem and he could have simply stated those 2 states because they fit in with the area that you need to search. Like using Utah “Utes”. Maybe the Utes play a significant role in the chase, and using the Word Utah was a way to designate that. And if its not in Utah, then it works as a double meaning. IMO these are how he separates the words in the poem to what they mean to him. All of it deliberately in front of your face, without you even knowing it.

      • @ Goofy, do you think there are numbers encoded in this poem? I do! Why are there 4 lines that contain 4 T letter words in each line for a total of16 t’s. What in your opinion is a code? Do you believe reversing words is acceptable. I do! Be careful when assuming what Fenn means by no “riddle/codes”

        I put the definition of code below IMO he has coded the poem not maybe in the sense of the first definition but in other ways yes.

        Example: B 13 look at the letter B now slide the 3 in 13 back against the 1 in 13 and it looks like B or how about M being the 13th letter of the alphabet which I believe he is doing AND I the 9th letter of the alphabet hence 9 clues of course all of this is in my opinion but If he is doing this would you consider this codes?

        plural noun: codes
        a system of words, letters, figures, or other symbols substituted for other words, letters, etc., especially for the purposes of secrecy.
        “the Americans cracked their diplomatic code”
        synonyms: cipher, key; More
        program instructions.
        “hundreds of lines of code”
        3rd person present: codes
        convert (the words of a message) into a particular code in order to convey a secret meaning.
        “only Mitch knew how to read the message—even the name was coded”
        write code for (a computer program).
        “most developers code C + + like C”

        • Cat you asked: “Goofy, do you think there are numbers encoded in this poem?”

          Short answer; no I don’t. What I believe is what he has told us. He has said there are no codes. There you go.

      • I agree with Goofy. Forrest clearly stated what the poem is not and I don’t have any problem understanding that comment. But there will always be disagreement about everything..I suspect once the chest is found folks will come forward with 42 different solutions to the poem that all lead to the true hiding place.
        I can remember when Forrest told us it was not in Idaho or Utah…some searchers refused to accept that and insisted it was part of the code and he did hide it in Utah…
        I disagree with that too…
        There are folks who don’t think the chest exists at all..
        I disagree with them too..
        I’m just plain disagreeable I guess…

        • Dal, you were there during the radio interview.When questioned about, Andrews solve, did forrest reach for his water, a cigarette, ect? Basically I’m asking, did he have a tell one way or another about the solve? Did he start sweating profusely, draw his finger across his throat at the interviewer, ect? You know, just any little detail you can rember that will help with this investigation is appreciated.

          • I took the comments of “you have most of it figured out” as a sarcastic comment. Andrew had most of HIS solution figured out. Not THE solution.

          • Fins, I’ve been wondering the same thing and thought about asking Dal if Forrest ever said anything about Andrew’s solution. Dal, can you enlighten us on this matter?

          • cj-
            I don’t really have anything. I was sitting next to Forrest at the radio station when he made that remark. I looked carefully at him to see if there would be an impish grin or any emotion to indicate what he was thinking when he made that statement. There was nothing. No remorse…no impish grin…no cursing under his breath. I can say that Forrest knew that the Briggs question was going to come up. Eeds told us what he planned to talk about just before the interview started.

          • Thanks for responding Dal! I was wondering if he was shaking his head in disbelief or just being polite and not trying to discourage anyone from writing up their own solution and trying to sell it like Andrew. Forrest did say something like he doesn’t try to correct people when they are wrong. 🙂

    • There’s more compelling problems with this solve than a cipher, despite my lengthy critique of working the Jefferson Cipher into the solution.

      The bigger problem, I feel, is reconciling a solve that says the correct answer to Clue #1 is Rattlesnake Springs, NM (south of Santa Fe) and the correct answer to Clue #2 is Little Snake Valley, WY (a completely different state) when FF has been saying since 2012 that several searchers have correctly identified the first two clues and later stated no one has “solved” past these clues. This isn’t just identifying clues, but also correctly answering them, correctly solving them.

      I mean, I tackled the cipher question, but I think the brick wall has nothing to do with ciphers.

      It’s hard to imagine several searchers coming up with these places, one of them not even in the search area. They must have also decided a cipher was in place, years ago, because according to Briggs that’s part of the solve. Finally, for all of this to be true, they must have figured all of this out, but somehow not figured out the other seven, despite the first two only making sense because of a cipher, according to Briggs.

      It all unravels with the first two clues. You don’t even have to consider what Forrest Fenn meant in his comments about ciphers.

  16. All below is IMO.

    Texas gold, It’s definitely a cipher. Not the given text of the poem – I need to keep making that clear. Forrest started with nine lines of (sketchy) text that were the directions to the chest, converted them to some phrases that were perfect English in their own right. The phrases were the nine answers to the clues listed in the poem.

    Look at my posts under ‘completely impartial analysis of the Briggs method’ ignoring the general bunce. These explain it. The kids reference in my view was said by Forrest because some of the answers to the clues related to comic book characters and characters from illustrated books.


    The White Knight (Andrew Briggs)

    • My opinion is it is definitely NOT a cipher. I don’t need any of those things to get me to where I believe it is. I can come up with a dang good solve without any of your ciphers, riddle, or codes. Just need time to go look.
      So there is no way you can claim it is definitely a cipher (in whatever form), when you don’t have the chest and so many others disagree.

    • Never even gives a starting point other than “go west”. Based on that alone I can start anywhere and if I dont like it or am unsuccessful then I just need to move further east until I am happy or successful. Is this boosting your other book sales? or just a way to provide some generic solution so you can say you were correct when someone does find it.

    • @White Knight (Andrew Briggs) Please share with us the exact place, video or news article etc where FF says, ‘show the poem to a kid’ none of us can find this quote. However, in my notes I did write down the name of Alfred Vincent Kidder so I know that ‘kid’ was mentioned…..Thanks! My take on show it to a ‘kid’ has to do with a child’s imagination.

      • Isn’t a goat somehow involved in the chase? I thought I saw that somewhere. Yea I always thought it was a pun on Captain Kidd a hint that the treasure is buried. I think he said kids have a better chance because there more agile. Maybe he was trying to say they can see small things better because there eyes are closer to the ground SPEAKING of small things remember that post about Napoleons skull wel in that post he in fact does show something to a kid. Is he trying to tell us all something? Mabe we should put on our thinker man hats?

        • Lucky,

          Of course a goat is involved! What kind of search wouldn’t require a goat?

          Once you find the hoB, you must track down a mountain goat, capture it alive, and sacrifice it to Thor (marvel gaze) on the alter of hoB. You should not look it it long after the sacrifice.

          The Blaze will then reveal itself.

          Everyone knows this – right?

          I do need to say that the above is my opinion, and the only reason I haven’t found the blaze is because those goats are too darn nimble to catch.


          • Hey!!! Are you making fun of my nose? I knew I should have used photo-shop.

            All fun and games. Sometimes I can’t resist being a little silly.

            Have a great night.

            Scott W.

    • Andrew,

      It’s hard to believe the alleged “ask a kid/child” quote keeps resurfacing even after the extensive rehash in the last month. Please try and keep up….this sort of willy-nilly use of questionable quotes just make your case weaker.

      This “quote” is pretty much heresay. It has been attributed to Mark Dreyer and his cousin Chad as referenced to Marks blog post back in about June 2012. They both came up with different versions of what is reported to have been said which should tell us something.

      Anyway there is no direct Fenn quote….it’s 2nd or 3rd hand paraphrasing.

  17. AB

    I see your point! But I believe it to be a visual view where imagination comes to play. Not every kid knows spiderman. or even the company that made the superhero. Heck i even have a problem of weather the comic or hero is DC or marvel. I just think its a stretch…IMO. We both came up with using lewis and clark…..But did you ever find a longitude from a word from the first clue that spelled a word but when referenced to a certain numerical system you get numbers?

    • I recall f saying put a child in the back seat and take a child with you or might need a little help getting to location of the chest but I can’t find where f indicated a child could solve the poem. Any help on that one?

    • I have read this comment about a child having an advantage. I consider it a game of I Spy.
      I Spy a water high spot. Do NOT ENTER FLOODING
      I Spy a heavy load. WATCH FOR FALLING ROCKS
      I Spy a home of Brown. BROWN
      I Spy a creek I cannot paddle up. A DRY CREEK
      I Spy a place where warm waters halt. A FLAT SPOT

      • Endof-

        I might list alternative responses, but the appropriate words for what you said are elegant and focused.

        Kids stuff here:

        “Show it to your kids. They’ll get it”.

        “When I was a kid,” he says, by way of explaining his passion, “I played Monopoly. I have always thought of myself as one who plays Monopoly. That’s what I’m doing here.”

        “I think kids may have an advantage. Don’t expect me to explain that.”

        “Children have the greatest imagination because their thoughts run free.”

        “The treasure is where an elderly man put it so I suppose your kids would be in a safe place if they found it.”

        “The treasure is not hidden in a dangerous place in the normal definition of the word, realizing that there probably is no place on this planet that is safe under all conditions. Bloggers have quoted me as saying that a child could walk up to the treasure. I don’t think that’s an accurate quote because a three year old girl would have a problem without some help. Remember, I was about 80 when I hid the chest, and had to make two trips.”

        Not kids, but still appropriate:

        “Autobiographers always lean toward the subject.”


    • We’ve all looked for it.

      The only thing close, that I have seen, is the Moby Dicken’s interview where he said a child might have an advantage. Goofy posted the link and the time-stamp of that interview in the previous Nine-Clues thread.

      Scott W.

  18. For what it’s worth, I did show the poem to kids in a 3rd grade class, and asked them questions. They suggested 1. do a word search (grid; circle words across, down, diagonal) 2. listen for “kid speak.” [for=4, too=2, tired=tie=red, etc]. When I suggested matching the alphabet to its correct number to find road numbers or coordinates in the poem, all understood it, thought it was fun and easy. They weren’t sure what constitutes a cypher.

    IF you plan to challenge f’s statement regarding cyphers & codes, Keep in mind f’s propensity to camoflage meanings with expert use of language & definition.

    IMO, you should think about the words, “KNOWING ABOUT.” Knowing about or “acknowledging existance” is not the same as USING or EMPLOYING that knowledge or method. Since Forrest did NOT say USING codes, riddles, etc. Perhaps USING those methods will assist one to the treasure.

    But I agree with Forrest, knowing about those things [without using them] will not assist anyone to the treasure’s location.

    • I’d like to have a pond, waterfall and a few ducks some day too! I sort of do but not in USA, just to far too fly all the time….lol!

  19. All below is IMO.


    So you think it took Forrest 15 years to join up some writing?

    If it’s a literal set of directions where is the place called ‘Warm Waters Halt’? I can’t find that place name on the map. Perhaps that’s because ‘warm waters halt’ is a cryptic reference?

    You say Forrest created ‘an incredibly difficult set of directions’ Directions can’t be that difficult can they? You move from A to B. What you mean is a set of directions that take the form of a riddle.

    P.S. It isn’t possible to kill the correct solution.


    The White Knight (Andrew Briggs).

    • Knight I’ll give you a hint wwwh has nothing to do with warm or water this my opinion but it’s a good opinion I’m within striking distance better hurry if your going to beat me to it

      • I think he was just referencing his sportsmanship with the poem and cryptography. But to your point, Warm Waters is the entire poem in 1 line. It is the beginning and the end. And warm seems to be an opinion, so it cannot physically be the same warm water to everyone. That is why it is a metaphor for cold in the beginning, Hot and Cold in the middle, and hot in the end. It is the answer to the first stanza. Warm is Hot and Cold.

        • Hammertime, I’m chiming in here to affirm your theory that IMO also, Warm ends where hot or cold begin…BOTH metaphorically & in reality.

          For the sake of discussion – consider the most well known geothermal area of warm waters – Yellowstone National Park – because it’s also Forrest’s beloved stompin grounds.

          Now, find an area where there are no hot springs to warm the waters, and snow-melt maintains cold waters year round. Wouldn’t that be the geographical place where warm waters halt somewhere outside of the Park boundary, but not too far away?

          For anyone rolling their eyes about my “F theory” and use of 32; I first solve the poem geographically using only the POEM, a NFS map, the memoirs, and GE. Then confirm my search locations with alphanumeric info.

          I completely believe the poem CAN be solved without codes. But there’s a chance ff is a master of cyphers & used them to camoflage what he hid in plain site with words. Maybe the brilliant minds like Briggs who understand cyphers, find important phrases, but need to follow simple poem paths to apply them. Could be. IMO Forrest is a genius who’s said he spent 15 yrs on the poem. There must be levels one must solve using a variety of methods (even if not cypers)

          • It is just tough to iron out the Warm. There will always be a debate on what is “really” warm. So hot and cold make more sense, because hot and cold can be concrete and are on the opposite ends of warm no matter how you look at it. The is probably a lake on top of a mountain that makes all of this fit as it flows water into a a series of streams and eventually into a desert, and that is where it begins. That part of the desert is a mirror image metaphorically to the end of the trail. IMO

          • I think warm is relative to each persons opinions and perspective from there sensations they perceive with the touch sense. I think WWWH is his view of a place, that we have to figure out. It gives me instant incentive to figure this out.

          • When you wash with warm water it’s not warm by the time it goes down the drain of your sink/basin.

          • True, obviously the water will change temperature to cooler than air & will get cool or cold when touching colder surfaces as it flows. My theory might be down the drain but I still have to go there & pull the plug.

    • Andrew, as Fenn said there are many places where warm waters halt in the Rockies and most of them are north of Santa Fe.

      Here’s what I think happened Andrew. I think you were so consumed with your cipher you didn’t thoroughly research what Fenn has said. When I asked you to reconcile your method of using a code to decipher the poem with his statement of there are no codes you were caught flat-footed. Look at your previous answer to me; it is completely different than this latest obfuscation of what Fenn said.

      I’m certain a smart fellow like you would have come up with a solid rationalization had he known Fenn discounted the use of codes in solving the poem. But you are flailing about trying to come up with reasonable way to use a code when Fenn said there are on codes.

      Like I said before, the last resort of a searcher obsessed with his solution is to say Fenn is misleading us. You might as well be arguing the chest is actually in Utah when he said it is not in Utah.

      And of course when someone shows you the foundation of your solution is simply wrong by what Fenn has stated you attack the messenger claiming a grand conspiracy that I’m trying to “kill the correct solution”.

      The next step is for you to miraculously figure out the remaining portion of the solution using your method and take the camera crews and news people there only to find the chest has already been removed or was never there to start with. Which can be the only conclusion because you simply cannot be wrong……

      Wash rinse repeat….how many times have we heard this story. But hey, if you can make a few bucks off the chaps in the UK with your story good for you.

      It doesn’t matter if you have solved the poem, it only matters they think you have solved the poem.

      • Goofy to White……Well said Goofy:). Searcher bias is a legitimate and very serious malady….once contracted, it is extremely difficult to treat….I have heard that grounding and clearing techniques such as meditation and yoga can work wonders.

      • But Goofy, didn’t f say who ever deciphered the clues to the poem will walk with confidence to the treasure? (Not exact quote, but he did use “decipher”)
        So, the opposite of DE-cipher, is cipher. Meaning a cipher is there to de-cipher.
        Or is f using the word “decipher” to mean- figure out (the clues)?
        I know he said no secret codes needed to solve it, and a code is a cipher…
        Oh, never mind, I just answered myself.

        • Donna,

          IMO “decipher” just means “figure it out” or “solve”

          I say this because he specifically told us that codes and ciphers are not needed.

          Scott W.

    • IMO

      Cryptic messages and coded /cipher messages are not necessarily the same.Coded/cipher messages are cryptic but not all cryptic messages are coded/cipher messages.
      IMO Fenn’s poem is a cryptic poem with hidden and enigmatic clues without containing codes/ciphers…I hope this could help the dispute.


  20. Hammer just trying to help the poem is straight forward wwwh imo is one thing only 4 1/2 years has led me to this result all the calculation and cryptography is leading alot of people a stray

  21. In the Moby Dickens bookshop video a girl asked Forrest whether ‘kids had a shot at finding the treasure’ . Forrest said ‘yes why not. In fact kids may have an advantage.’

    That was my reference.


    The White Knight (Andrew Briggs)

    • Load the kids up and go find the treasure and they might help you find the treasure, but helping with the poem is a whole different task. imo

    • Kids like to climb on thnigs. Kids like to crawl on the ground, and look inside hidey holes. There perspective is unclouded, their hearing is keen, pre-school ones don’t know how to spell.

  22. All below is IMO.

    No I’m being consistent. I’m saying he probably made a mistake eliminating all of these word out of the game including the word cipher.

    Everyone’s solution is based on it being a riddle, including your ‘difficult directions’ riddle which you’ve conveniently glossed over. This means everyone’s solution is ruled out by Forrest’s statement. So if you live by the statement you die by the statement.


    The White Knight (Andrew Briggs).

    • I would not say everyone’s solution depends on the poem being a riddle. I don’t consider mine to be based on a riddle, but then maybe it depends on what Forrest considers to be a riddle. Seems that when you are basing your solution on the assumption that Forrest misspoke that you are opening up a Pandora’s box that brings into question everything that Forrest has said. I tend to thing that for the most part Forrest is very precise in what he says. But that is just my opinion, and it is probable lower than a small hill of beans.

      • 《IMO》Ok, riddles. A new concept to me in finding the solution. So…
        Riddle me this…
        It begins in earth, is only second in heaven, there are too many in a week, and only one found in the sea. What is it?
        This is how F’s poem, now reminds me. Alot of extra words thrown in, side tracking you from the important ones. When the side tracked/important words are spoken, they give you a different definition of the written word.
        F did say, tho, to read the poem over and over, read the book (imo to help find correct definition), then read the poem again, to understand.
        The chase goes on!
        I love seeing how eager the new searchers are about their solves being the winner, as we once were.
        We had no one before us, that broke ground. All of Dal’s accumulated Intel has really made the freshman’s job easier!
        Play nice, be safe!
        ¥Peace ¥

    • You’re doing a great job keeping your cool, Mr. Knight.

      I will agree with you that there is a poem and there is a puzzle in the poem; and I agree that ‘cipher’ might too broadly interpreted by people in relation to solving the puzzle.

      However, I think you need to find more strict rules for your method; and the rules should constrain your results much further to eliminate coincidental results. And your results should be backed up by some hints in the book.

      No matter how far you go with something… you can still go further.

    • Muset said – “You’re doing a great job keeping your cool, Mr. Knight”.

      I second that, and I am glad you are here. Although many may not agree with your solve, you have done well holding your ground.

      Hats off,

      Scott W.

  23. BigSkip here:

    I continue to read the cross-currents of opinions regarding the poem, what it means, how it was constructed, codes, ciphers, clues and hints. Occassionally, I hear threads of what I believe is the reality. All part of the Chase to be sure, but for some of us, the following holds true and should be repeated:

    “I am taking the most simple approach. Mr. Fenn discovered “his” place many, many years ago. When he decided to hide a treasure and get the public off the couch and outdoors, he knew just the place to hide the TC and wrote down the instructions on how the find that location. Over the years he rewrote those instructions, a map, over and over again with new and puzzling words. To complicate matters, he decided to put the disguised instructions in poem form with rhyming words and unnecessary phrases. It’s all very simple…. to him. He knows exactly what he did. ……Follow the clues in the poem consecutively…..don’t mess with the poem. Follow the clues and they will lead you to the spot……We just have to figure out his original intentions and how he disguised the instructions. At least that is what this beginner is doing, of course, in my opinion”

    • I agree with everything you said except one. He said on video that the clues were contiguous. I’m not disputing they aren’t consecutive, but I feel I should point this out.

      Not an opinion – just an observational thought.

      Scott W.

  24. Folks can believe what they like. Andrew believe there is a cipher needed to solve the poem, and chooses this method on a belief that, fenn didn’t mean what he stated. How can anyone argue this? The only problem is the gullible type that needs to follow another… For those who want to believe in this method, that has been told by the only person who actually knows is not going to find the chest… well there’s a saying… a fool and his money are soon parted.

    “Would you want the person that finds your treasure to admire the place where it rests? Andrew
    Well Andrew, I’m not sure “admire” is the right word but if we twist it a little maybe we can make it work. The word means approval or high regard. So it works. I sure feel that way or I would not have hidden it there. I like the way you think Andrew. f”

    “Forrest, you have stated that several searchers correctly identified the first two clues in your poem. Could you tell us how many searchers to your knowledge have correctly identified the first clue correctly? Thanks. ~49 Dollars
    No 49, I cannot tell you how many searchers have identified the first clue correctly, but certainly more than several. I cannot imagine anyone finding the treasure without first identifying the starting point, although many seem to be preoccupied with later clues. To me that’s just expensive folly. f”

    “I warned that the path would not be direct for those who had no certainty of the location beforehand, but sure for the one who did.” f

    “There are a few words in the poem that are not useful in finding the treasure Phil, but it is risky to discount any of them. You over simplify the clues. There are many places in the Rocky Mountains where warm waters halt, and nearly all of them are north of Santa Fe. Look at the big picture, there are no short cuts. f ”

    “There are hints in my book that will help you with the clues, but a clue will point you toward the treasure chest and a hint will just help you with the clues, if you can understand that.”

    “I’ve said things people think are clues.”

    “There are a few words in the poem that are not useful in finding the treasure Phil, but it is risky to discount any of them. You over simplify the clues. There are many places in the Rocky Mountains where warm waters halt, and nearly all of them are north of Santa Fe. Look at the big picture, there are no short cuts. f ”

    “Some searchers overrate the complexity of the search. Knowing about head pressures, foot pounds, acre feet, bible verses, Latin, cubic inches, icons, fonts, charts, graphs, formulas, curved lines, magnetic variation, codes, depth meters, riddles, drones or ciphers, will not assist anyone to the treasure location, although those things have been offered as positive solutions. Excellent research materials are TTOTC, Google Earth, and/or a good map.f”

    “The person that finds it,” Fenn said, “is going to be a person who thinks and plans and has an analytical mind and uses logic, not someone who has a hunch.”

    “”I’m not flippant about this. It’s not something somebody is going to be able to do on spring break or a Sunday afternoon picnic. I’m looking a hundred years down the road, maybe a thousand years down the road. People don’t understand that.”


    Fenn has even describe this in his answer as, some “over simplify”, and some “Overrate the complexity” the search. Fenn has shown how he enjoys the use of words by twisting the meanings to make them fit, while some twist the words themselves saying ‘ that is what FF told us’.
    There will always be some who attempt to sell others on the idea of “well fenn didn’t mean what he said”… and there will always be those who can’t think for themselves that will join bandwagon.

    Well with that said… I going back to the floating hat, cuz I know there is a clue there, maybe if i measure the distance to the bear and divide by the height of the pillar, take the words quickly and remove the ly and add the word nestle using the first letter of each words Nigh, Effort, Scant Trove, Look End… I can find hoB?

    or maybe, I’ll just look for the first clue… seems I have heard someone say that one is important….

    • Yes, Forrest did say that several searchers have correctly identified the first two clues in the poem, but IMO what he meant is that they have identified the clues……. i.e., WWWH and NFBTFTW, not the place it is referring to. In other words they have only identified the words in the poem that are clues. They still haven’t identified the location of the clues. But, somehow, someone has been within striking distance of the chest–maybe by chance. Hmmm…..very interesting.

      • I considered that as well, but he’s also stated “no one has given me the correct solve past the first two clues”.

        I think a correct solve goes a little further than just identifying clues.

  25. Hi folks,

    Hunting NM.

    I had been on the chase for only a short time when before I knew it… I had talked myself into making a trip to New Mexico to learn the lay of the land. I was positive Georgia O’Keefe had to have something to do with the hunt so off I went searching for Abiqui NM, looking for the White Place.

    In preparation… for about a week or two, a friend and I searched GE trying to find directions to several places including a few waterfalls we thought could also be involved… I’d always been one of those who thought the TC was hidden close enough to SF where f could get to it quickly, IMO he can. And he did say “…8.25 miles north of…SF”??? Well we found Nambe, the lake and Nambe Falls which seemed to be an easy enough hunt so it was added to the list of to-dos.

    Also, I had been doing some research on the Spanish when I found the Santurio De Chimayo, an old Spanish church which claims to have dirt that heals!!! I planned to visit the church too, as it wasn’t far from Abiqui or Nambe and was very interesting.

    It was a great adventure we had planned, my son, friend and I.

    After traveling approx. 25 straight hours from Southern Illinois, we arrived at Nambe only to find it closed for mating and birthing seasons… Sad face!

    Even worse, The Chimayo was closed until Easter…and then… not twenty five minutes later… I got a ticket driving past Bodes in Abiqui thus ending our trip… we made our way home.

    I guess you could say we were learning the lay of the land!

    Instead of going back through SF however, we went north to Taos. We took 70 West home. It turned out being a good thing sometime later as I started developing different theories about the chase.

    We were there because f said 8.25. I felt O’Keefe was involved. “Treasures new and old…” I thought might have been related to the Spanish and gold. F said he moved to NM to heal… The Chimayo as well as other spots have healing dirt??? I could go on but nothing fit… just a bunch of pieces to a puzzle I couldn’t put together.
    Since then however, the Tewa connection was made, the pueblos and the ancients. Sitting Bull’s pipe and his history of his family was/is a curiosity. The Navajo, Santa Clara, Picuris and other archeological places north of SF became my studies. I wonder about Chaco Culture, The Mesa Verde, and playing Canasta.
    And while I really have no clue as to where the treasure is… I keep an open mind. For each solve… I try to keep plugging in hints and or clues in to each cipher as I go. Just one approach of many?

    Hope I hadn’t wasted anyone’s time, I appreciate the feed back?
    Mark H. Hunting NM. 🙂

    • @Mark H. re: Hunting NM Thanks for the share, sounds like you hit a few bumps on your first outing to NM! I’m with you on feeling NM is the spot! Keep on searching! Today I had a Chase dream where a woman said the word that is key is KNOW, lol! – cholly

    • Mark, I was just thinking last night that Georgia O’Keefe might be involved… I will have to look into it some more now… Thanks for sharing…

      • Can’t understand why, in Mindys recent post she didn’t mention that G. O’Keefe stipulated that her ashes were to be spread atop that Mesa she was so fond of. I give her a hard time, but Mindy is a firecracker .

      • I wonder if this was the same guy who was on a reality show titled, Superstitous Mountain, the hunt for the lost dutchmans gold.

  26. I made one trip to NM and this area was on my list. At one time I thought Espanola and San Gabriel had something to do with it. I researched the TEWA language and came up with a solution involving white rock, NM. IMHO, after one trip to this area after a month of research, I do not think it is there. I even got the maps from 1908 that showed the TEWA names some of them like “owl point” “otowi” and other Tewa names translated to clues in the poem. I digress. The trip back home was more promising.

  27. Seeker:

    Thank you for your 9:43PM comments and the powerful and meaningful summary. Most important and informative for this beginner.
    Thanks again

    • I’m just trying to keep it real in my mind, BigSkip. If I truly listen to those who just can’t read plain text, I’d go crazy. Some folks are so wrapped up in there solutions they start making up excuses so they don’t have to admit their wrong. This is happening more and more… a Book with cipher breaking clues… Late breaking news of an e-mail, that turned out nothing like it started to be, and many more.

      Sure it’s frustrating to have your perfect, one of a kind, no one else thought of, has to be correct solve, flushed down the drain… all I can say to those is… Welcome to my world, and every other searcher who is in the same challenge.

    • Paul-
      Forrest’s mother died of a heart attack in Cameron, MT and his sister died from complications from smoking (lung cancer and empahsema).

      • This weekend I went to a celebration of life and the reality of life is we see more people passing as we get older. As a child I can’t remember having to witness such tragedies.

        • My father took his life when I was eight, leaving behind not just me, but my two brothers, mother, and one sister. That’s it. Went to school like normal, came home and that was it. We were on the news.
          Later I moved with my grandfather, and it seemed like his friends were dying off left and right. Sorry to be brutal, but, you are correct william, it is a harsh reality to have to realize death. I hate death. But a harsher reality would be to ignore the other side of death-which is life. To find our path and follow it and to have the strength to pick up others along the way.
          My condolences on your loss.

  28. Thanks Dal, I really appreciate the information. I am new to the chase and have enjoyed your tireless contributions so again thank you.

  29. I feel one of the biggest hints to this date is a seeker is within 200 to 500 feet with the first two clues and may even have just walked by the TC. So for everyone that starts there first two clues and continues farther away from the starting point without returning to the first two clues is off with there solution. What do other seekers think?

    • Good point Paul.
      I agree with most of what was said. What bothers me is when I read the book TFTW, Fenn’s maybe suggesting that you or him has to take some type of transportation, hence too far to walk. I agree with the begin location being somewhat near the end but I would think the distance would be too far to walk.

    • I think the comment can also be taken to mean that several people have figured out the first two clues AND that some people have been 200-500 feet from the chest. Those people who were near it may not necessarily have been searching for the treasure.

    • I think your connections maybe off. Are you saying he said the searchers with the first two clues are the same that were within that footage?
      I agree the second part of your comment is a possibility.

      ” I cannot tell you how many searchers have identified the first clue correctly, but certainly more than several. f”

      “Those with the first two clues are still numerous. I feel of those countless searchers, some may have guessed, but quite a few probably felt they knew they had it, but because they did not have the rest of the poem deciphered, or did not have the key, or did not have clue 3 or had the blaze and went by the other 7 simple had to give up and thus “… Alas, and dame fortune, so often a fickle and seductive wench, never spun her wheel to lure them back.f”

      “Searchers have routinely revealed where they think the treasure was hidden and walked me through the process that took them on that course. That’s how I know a few have identified the first two clues. Although others were at the starting point I think their arrival was an aberration and they were oblivious to its connection with the poem. Playing a hunch is not worth much in the search and those who start out by looking for the blaze, are wasting their time.f”

      “There have been some who have been within 500 feet because they have told me where they have been. Others have figured the first two clues and went right past the treasure and didn’t know it.”

      There are other comment [ to many to list ] but i can]t find one that puts both parties in the first two clues “and” 200 or 500′ away from the chest. Maybe you have a comment that does?

      • As has been mentioned there are many definitions to the words in the dictionary. I apologize for once again bringing this to the fore. There are no drones or ciphers yet
        “​but because they did not have the rest of the poem deciphered, or did not have the key,”

        f must be meaning two separate meanings of the word cipher as in no ciphers and have the rest of the poem deciphered.

        I am confused and not trying to stir it up again and hope this problem makes sense to others and they can straighten this out…. or would f rather have it twisted and bouncing off the edges?

        • When I read some of the white knights posts, it made me think of an audio interview where I could have sworn forrest used the word ,decipher when talking about the first two clues.I’m not sure if a cipher is needed or not.I kind of doubt it with the most recent scrapbook posting.I did enjoy learning about the lewis and clark ciper.Neat stuff.

        • Uken2ut, IMO Forrest could have been referencing a “musical key” like F-Major which matches his military rank and “A Sunday Kind of Love” his favorite song by Fran Warren.

          I also have tried the key of B for blaze and e for Key.

          Google musical frequencies – some of the numbers might match a NM, CO, or MT coordinate where you search. It takes some work to find the right format of coordinates.

          [Warning – I get honked by the blog geese for making it too complex & imaginative.]

      • Seeker et al,
        Doesn’t it appear f might be saying there is more than one layer in the quote below that I cut and pasted from your post?
        “Those with the first two clues are still numerous. I feel of those countless searchers, some may have guessed, but quite a few probably felt they knew they had it, but because they did not have the rest of the poem deciphered, or did not have the key, or did not have clue 3 or had the blaze and went by the other 7 simple had to give up and thus “… Alas, and dame fortune, so often a fickle and seductive wench, never spun her wheel to lure them back.f” ”

        2 Clues but need the rest of the poem deciphered
        or did not have the key
        or did not have clue 3
        or had the blaze and went by the other 7 (which seems like the blaze must be part of 2nd clue? or other 7 blazes?)

        Most of all I would like thoughts on the “other 7”. Are the rest of the clues, blazes, I dunno.

          • You were included in the reply “Seeker et al,” Go now and be happy ;^)
            Thanks for sharing your thoughts on the blaze being clue 2.

          • No. Incorrect. Clue #2 blaze. With obligatory IMHO, but abundantly obvious to anyone with a logical brain.

          • Phooey — website doesn’t support greater than or less than signs, both of which I inserted between “Clue #2” and “blaze”. (For non-math-geeks, that means one does not equal the other.)

          • Hi Jeremy. I didn’t think of using != or even .NE. as I was surprised that angle brackets would get filtered out. Maybe the blog software worries that it signals a hyperlink. As to your question, sure — I’ve done some VB programming, but not my preferred language. I’m *really* old school — FORTRAN is still my favorite.

          • My old school language is TAL. But now I just sit around and tell others what to do.

            Scott W.

      • Based on what has been said above, and assuming the quotes are correct, this one sentence tells me that the blaze is not one of the first two clues.

        “Playing a hunch is not worth much in the search and those who start out by looking for the blaze, are wasting their time.”

        Since he said, in regard to those that had the first two clues correct “… or they don’t have the blaze”, indicates that the blaze is not one of the first two clues which Uken2it alluded to.


        Scott W

        • Q1,
          I offered a couple of suggestions with no particular preference. Assuming the quotes are correct as mentioned above, how is it that you definitively state the blaze is not part of the first 2 clues? Help me out here: ​
          “…or had the blaze and went by the other 7 simple had to give up”
          If the blaze is not a part of the first 2 clues what is meant by “the other 7”?

          • The quote indicated the operator “or” not “and”.

            With “and” both sides of the operator must me true to make the statement true. With “or” only one side has to be true to make the statement true.

            Scott W

          • Q1,
            I understand the and/or amongst the choices but sticking to the single ‘or’ ​
            “or had the blaze and went by the other 7” what do you make or this portion of the statement? Having the blaze but not having the other 7? IMO

      • Seeker,

        You posted this quote:

        “Those with the first two clues are still numerous. I feel of those countless searchers, some may have guessed, but quite a few probably felt they knew they had it, but because they did not have the rest of the poem deciphered, or did not have the key, or did not have clue 3 or had the blaze and went by the other 7 simple had to give up and thus “… Alas, and dame fortune, so often a fickle and seductive wench, never spun her wheel to lure them back.f”

        Do you have a link to where it is found??

        I apparently missed this, somehow. I cannot find it in any of my notes!!

        muchas gracias…………..loco

        • I have the following in my notes followed by the link:

          ” I cannot tell you how many searchers have identified the first clue correctly, but certainly more than several. f” Those with the first two clues are still numerous. I feel of those countless searchers, some may have guessed, but quite a few probably felt they knew they had it, but because they did not have the rest of the poem deciphered, or did not have the key, or did not have clue 3 or had the blaze and went by the other 7 simple had to give up and thus “… Alas, and dame fortune, so often a fickle and seductive wench, never spun her wheel to lure them back.f”
          “Oops, I forgot, there is one thing in the chest that I have not talked about except to say I don’t want to talk about it. It is something saved especially for the person who solves the clues. I think that person will be pleased when she sees it.” f

        • Loco,
          Nice catch, apparently I mix to comments together when cutting and pasting. My bad… I did say I was computer illiterate, didn’t I? lol


          The actual quote was- “Several months ago some folks correctly mentioned the first two clues to me in an email and then they went right past the other seven, not knowing that they had been so close. Alas, and dame fortune, so often a fickle and seductive wench, never spun her wheel to lure them back.”

          Now, with that said… I do believe there is more. I’m still looking. Almost positive Wolf may have it if I can’t find it. Give me so time… I’ll correct it in full. I sure don’t want to mislead anyone. I have been reading so many quotes lately I’m cross eyed.


          • seeker, seeker, seeker

            I knew where this came from:

            “Alas, and dame fortune, so often a fickle and seductive wench, never spun her wheel to lure them back.f”

            This is the part I am requesting a reference for:

            “Those with the first two clues are still numerous. I feel of those countless searchers, some may have guessed, but quite a few probably felt they knew they had it, but because they did not have the rest of the poem deciphered, or did not have the key, or did not have clue 3 or had the blaze and went by the other 7 simple had to give up and thus…”

            That doesn’t even sound like a composition of Forrest’s, oral or written…And, you think you may have gotten it from the wolf?? That could explain it!! 🙂

          • for: uken2it and Seeker

            uken2it-> thanks for the response….but, you might want to listen that video. It is the Moby Dicken’s interview. I just listened to it again (for the nth time 🙂 ) and Forrest did not make that comment or anything remotely similar.

            Old Yeller-> LOL!! You are still on the hook! 🙂 You posted it as a quote from Forrest. Where did you get it??

            (Seeker, I have 90+ links to things FF has said. These are periodicals, newspapers, podcasts, taped interviews, etc. that go all the way back to 2010 and that’s not counting what I is on dal’s blog and Mysterious Writings…..If I missed this, I really want to know it.)

            “Those with the first two clues are still numerous. I feel of those countless searchers, some may have guessed, but quite a few probably felt they knew they had it, but because they did not have the rest of the poem deciphered, or did not have the key, or did not have clue 3 or had the blaze and went by the other 7 simple had to give up and thus “… Alas, and dame fortune, so often a fickle and seductive wench, never spun her wheel to lure them back.f”

            Goofy, can you help Seeker out here?? 🙂

            thanks, loco 🙂

          • Cr*p!!!

            Goofy or dal, I am in moderation again. It is a reply to seeker, here.

            I tried to type too fast (again) and dropped the “o”….It’s in moderation as ‘locolob’.

            dang, and I said I wouldn’t do that again! I am mortified. Would one of you sweethearts please lend me bail money??

          • Loco, first sign of old age… you forget your own name… I know because I spend more time in moderation these days than the principal’s in my younger years.

          • Loco,

            You are correct with that comment I posted… It is only part of the original quote… Bottom… the top is not. I reserve the right to be wrong once in a while… Nice catch, and thanks for keeping me on my toes.

        • @niceinID he has said both the 200′ and 500′ on different occasions…..I think the 500 came first, what’s the difference, put me with in a mile and I’ll find it! lol, IMO

          • Assuming it is a mile in any direction, and let’s make the search area a square instead of a circle for easier calculations –

            If you have 20 people holding hands, each with a 6 foot reach from finger tip to finger tip, you would all have to walk end to end, holding hands, making 44 one mile passes of that square to cover the area.

            IMO, a mile away is not close enough.

            I’m looking for 100′ X 100′ search area as a maximum. Without that confidence level I am not leaving home again.

            Scott W

  30. Yes seeker , I am referring to the quote above where Forrest states ” others have figured the first two clues and went right past the treasure and didn’t even know it”.

    To me that states if you have the first two clues you are very close.

    • Paul,

      I guess then we need to determine what the first two clues are.

      If I interpret the second clue to mean put in at the Death Canyon trail-head, then I can imagine walking right past the chest because I didn’t understand the other 7clues.

      Scott W

  31. But yes also seeker, that does not state exactly 200 or 500 feet, I agree with you, sorry I heard him say walked right by the treasure chest and thought that meant about 200 or 500.

    • Nothing to be sorry for. Let’s face it, could one assume that the other seven clues could be close… Depending on what close actually mean… I can see that comment that way. I’m just not sure the other comments of 200 or 500′ mean the same person(s).

      But let’s say the clues are close, how do those clues work? Do the remaining seven lead a searcher to the chest by pacing or a longer travel involved. Can all the clues be within two football fields or involve a few miles?

      I’m leaning at this point in time… Very close. But that’s just my reading of the poem now. My last wonderful solve involved many miles.

      • Seeker –

        I tend to believe that once you park your car and get out and walk, the remaining clues are all in close proximity to each other.

        The fact that he made two trips in an afternoon, indicates that the walking portion is a relatively short distance.

        Before you ask, I consider an afternoon to be no more than five hours, but it could be much less.

        Scott W.

        • I’ll give 6 hours, but hey that’s just the type of guy I am…lol

          I personally don’t think the way fenn went is the way he has us going. Could be wrong, but where ever the chest is hidden you can be sure FF knows the area like the back of his hand. It wouldn’t surprise me in the least if he drove a mile into the woods.

          • Good point. But the fact that those who solved the first two clues were in close proximity has me guessing.

            What we don’t know is how far they walked after they parked the car.

            Scott W.

          • Exactly, them or fenn. so I can’t use that comment as a guide too much. What it does say is, the area is not difficult to maneuver. Or at least that is the way I read into it.

            But I still have to keep in mind that this was going to be the final resting place for FF. And if his intent was for the trove to be there…I just can’t see that it being close to a simple parking area where folks will wonder around a mile or two. If wind can effect the chest [ and i don’t have that quote at the ready, but he was talking about tornado type winds ] I think the hide spot is very sheltered by it’s natural surroundings.

          • Seeker,

            Somewhere, and I can’t find it, Fenn was asked something about people findin his car, thus leading rescue/recovery to his body.

            Fenn replied with something like – I could just ride my bike and throw it in the lake. I also believe he referred to that lake, jokingly, as water-high.

            I will continue to look for that reference. In the meantime, please treat my post as a faded memory which may or may not be factual.

            Scott W.

          • Q1 and Loco,
            1) Just searched my notes and cannot find the bike or bicycle comment

            2) Loco I apologize for wasting your time on that video, the link was placed under the quote mistakenly in my notes. I have not been able to locate this portion of the quote “or did not have the key, or did not have clue 3 or had the blaze and went by the other 7 simple had to give up and thus “

            3) Apparent contradictions are interesting and may be solved as such as it concerns no ciphers yet deciphered. No need for ciphers yet there may be a need for deciphering. May be that he has used them interchangeably elsewhere so this is IMO only.

          • Seeker,

            You said: “But I still have to keep in mind that this was going to be the final resting place for FF. And if his intent was for the trove to be there…I just can’t see that it being close to a simple parking area where folks will wonder around a mile or two.”

            With that in mind, would you tend to think that the place is relatively easy to access yet most people would not have any reason to go there? For instance, many people believe that it is a beautiful place with striking vistas and frolicking wildlife, but that sort of scenery usually draws a crowd….same with water falls. I’m imagining it just has sentimental value but nothing that would draw general attention.

          • Wildbirder –

            How do you guys do that?

            I posted at 9:something and then 3 hours later your post looks like it came before mine.

            Not that I care much, but it just throws me off when the time stamps are out of sync.

            Thanks for digging up the link.


            Scott W

          • Scott in my younger days they called me Dragon Lady. When i am feeling better (Tummy bug or start of flu YIKES ) ask me about producing lightening outside s window one time. LOL

  32. Seeeker:

    Thank you again for the great summary of ff comments listed above. Very interesting and necessary for this beginning searcher. I am puzzled, however, by one simple f comment you included. “Others have figured the first two clues and went right past the treasure and didn’t know it.” What is your interpretation of that specific comment? I assume the first two clues are what we are all using. It sounds like the TC is very close in proximity to clue No.2. My solve, as it is, puts distances between the clues. What am I missing?
    Thanks again

    • Seeker, yes I agree. My solution puts it very close as well to the first two clues. Approximately two hundred feet to the blaze. A coriolis effect. Wish I wasn’t so far away with family obligations , I would love to see if I am right. Everything fits.

  33. Ukin2it, good questions, but I have it that the begin point is next to the blaze. That is why Forrest says in the poem if you have been wise and found the blaze. That is all past tense. And remember ;at the end of our exploring we will return to where we started and see it for the first time( paraphrased).

  34. Seeker:

    Big Oops! Didn’t see the previous explanation when I was writing.
    You have given your opinion and it is appreciated.
    Thanks again.

    • BigSkip,

      I’ll extend my thoughts to say; if the clues are not close, then clue 3 whatever it maybe is a hard one and everyone is missing it. I also think differently than what you said…” I assume the first two clues are what we are all using.”

      If you’re using WWWH as the first clue, IMO that is a yes and no. I think there is another clue before that and is a must know to understand which WWWH is correct. And without it, is the reason those searcher went pass the other clues. This is my theory I’m presently working on. I have a solve, but now I’m dissecting it to see if it holds water[s].

      • I am presently using the first stanza as a spring board into the poem. It might reveal the “keyword” imo. Or it might reveal the first clue imo. Just throwing this out there hoping it might create a new start for somebody that is stuck.

        Q1 “IMO “decipher” just means “figure it out” or “solve”” I have been going on this assumption too. However, how do we ‘know’ which usage, decipher or cipher to take lightly?

    • I am not yet ready to disclose my return trip home. But I think I figured out a possible blaze that I need to go back to and do some tarry scanting. I should have time in November. If it is not there, I will be posting my solution and retiring from the chase.

    • fenntreasuremarksblogsite, I don’t search NM but am still interested in an online Tewa vocabulary list. The only one I located had just 15 words. Any ideas? Thank you.

      • Alright men, march and get the manuals! Let’s compete! Cholly I have to agree with you that if instructions are a necessity to find the gold then I am a goner.

      • Hey!

        I think you mean directions!

        I will agree that men don’t like to ask for directions, but we all know women can’t read instructions!

        With that said, if the key word is “instructions” we have it in the bag.


        Scott W

  35. Curious to hear any other seekers inputs on the first two clues leading to a very close proximity to th TC. And how far is too far to walk? Far enough that you could use another mode of transportation if you wanted, but in supreme shape you could walk ?

    • Well Paul,

      As I have posted previously, “not far, but too far to walk” is the distance from WWWH to the put in for the canyon located below the hoB.

      In my opinion, the canyon you are looking for is what is too far to walk to get to. When you get to the hoB, turn around and look for the put-in to the canyon.

      Scott W.

    • I opine, no. I don’t think two clues can uniquely put you within walking distance of ANYWHERE. Key word: *uniquely*. I suspect that since the clues are extremely vague, they work in tandem. 1 clue: useless. 2 clues: useless, unless you are lucky at guessing, in which case you probably used extra information that you aren’t explicitly including as part of your clues 1 and 2. Let’s give a for instance: suppose you believe clue #1 is “begin it where warm waters halt” and that clue #2 is “take it in the canyon down”. If that’s all you’ve got, you’ve got pretty much nothing. I can give you two dozen places in a single State that explicitly meet those conditions.

      • I agree Zaphod, as Forrest has said you need to see the big picture. I believe once you see the big picture and put everything together you can start to solve the quest. That is why we are speculating, and everyone is speculating at this time until the TC is in the hands, that after the first two clues the seeker is in close proximity to the chest. Especially when Forrest says that some have gotten the first two clues and walked right by the chest.

      • Zap,

        If those are the first two clues, I agree. Yet are they the first two clue?
        Lets go with this scenario… WWWH is the second clue and the first clue tells which spot to be at by name or by uniqueness… meaning one of a kind or very few. Like the triple divide for example. Waters not “stopping” but changing direction. Now we are at an exact location with two clues. The meaning of WWWH and the Uniqueness of the place.

        food for thought… but only if you can see that maybe WWWH is not the first clue, as most think it is.

    • IMO, TFTW is clue #3. Fs comment about people getting the first two clues and then going right past the others, means they overshot how far “too far to walk” is. I think a lot of people tend to disregard the “not far” part of that line.

      I don’t think it’s a very long distance at all. “Too far to” sounds an awful lot like 242. maybe 2.42 miles?
      or maybe since you’re not walking, you’re following a river. Maybe 2.42 nautical miles?

      • springer42,
        I can see too or to, maybe suggesting 2. How do you get 4 for far? Couldn’t the line read as… Not far, but two far to walk as well or two mile?
        Or if far means 4… Not one far[4] but 2 4’s to walk or 8 miles? How can we decipher between which is which if the clues will lead precisely to the chest?

    • Paul, I think all the clues lead you to a close proximity of TC. In my mind they overlap here & there by design, so the first 2 clues would put you in close proximity. Which first clues do you like?
      I think the first clue is: As I have gone alone in there And with my treasures bold.
      Where has he gone alone?
      I think he didn’t like taking a bath in West Yellowstone when his mom would heat up water on the wood burning stove.
      river bathing is best.

  36. All,
    I would suggest (IMO) looking at distances using a hemibel approach:
    Far = 100 miles
    Not too far to walk = 10 miles
    Not far, but too far to walk = 30 miles
    Of course, the distances in the poem may be figurative rather than literal.
    “Have flashlight, will travel”

  37. All below is IMO.

    Interesting point about Forrest using the word deciphered. If you just have to walk down a canyon to pick up a treasure chest why does the construct need deciphering?

    So the construct can only be a riddle etc but some of you want to rule these out based on his statement I highlighted earlier.


    The White Knight (Andrew Briggs)

    • White…As you can imagine I was also disconcerted to read this. It would appear this was sent in an email to an individual and was not available to everyone. This raises some validity issues….. however, if true it certainly raises questions.

    • What does canyon mean to you? and what did fenn mean by it in the poem? Definition is shear sides that have been carved out by flowing water. Creek fits that definition as well, but on a smaller scale.

      Andrew I ask a while back, you said something to the effect. You don’t start using a cipher till you discover the answers to the clues themselves. I asked why use a cipher at all, if you have the answers to the clues?

      I can go back and get the exact wording you stated… but I think you know what you said.

      Is it not the answers to the clues what we all are looking for.

  38. Dal, did you get my email?

    Seekers, I believe this is a big hint to where the canyon is as well. From TTOTC. “. Each dish and pan had to be washed by hand, dipped in scalding water and dried. Whew! My hands turned white and had deep canyons in them. What I really hated to wash were the giant kettles used for making brown gravy.”

    • Paul,
      Anything is possible I guess, I think that is just common language of the time. If you replace canyon with deep lines and Brown Gravy with sawmill gravy [ white ] would you even consider that part of a story a hint?

      On the other hand can it mean, looking at a map and seeing those deep canyons and giant basins? [ natural formations when looking at a map ] I can see a possible hint… maybe. I guess I would have to ask myself how does that help in regards to the poem, because it seems to me anyone looking at a map should be able to understand that without hinting.

      How do you see it helping you to see and / or understand a clue?

      • I believe TTOTC has many hints as Forrest has said, use TTOTC, google earth and/or a good map. As he says in the beginning of the book that the book can help you unlock the information needed to find the chest.

        I read the sentence as he is trying to give us a visual in our mind of the place. ” dipped in scalding water and dried.” Where does scalding water dry? Or freeze/halt.

        “My hands turned white” Where does scalding water that it has dried turned the land white? Yellowstone national Park, in particular Mammoth hot springs or White Mountain.

        “Deep Canyons” Look for the deep canyons

        “Giant Kettles” Giant being Mammoth and Kettles being a cauldron.

        With my solve the brown gravy does not mean much and he is throwing you off here. I have a different Brown.

        I think the brown gravy is what it is as Forrest would say. Boiling brown liquid in a cauldron which is generic in the big picture above.

        Paul T

  39. Been lurking a lot here of late. I know that the searching season is coming to an end, as the air is getting crisper (was 39 F here this morning) and leaves and needles are starting to turn or fall or both.

    Let’s review, shall we?

    1. Some folks have “deciphered” the first two clues – they’ve figured them out.
    2. Some folks have been within 200 feet of Indulgence.
    3. The folks in statement one most likely are not the same folks as in statement two – though we do not know that for certain.
    4. Forrest took two walking trips in one afternoon to place the chest and its contents from a place where he parked his vehicle.
    5. Where Indulgence sits, Forrest was hoping to lay down next to when he died.
    6. This spot is in one of four states in the Rocky Mountains.
    7. The elevation of this spot is above 5000 feet, but below 10200 feet.
    8. The scent of the forest can be smelled in close proximity to the resting spot.
    9. Since putting Indulgence in place, it has been wet.
    10. Indulgence is at least 200 miles West of Toledo. 🙂

    I think I got all the “big ones” on the list. So, as each of us works on our solves for searching at some point in the future, how does what we know help us “decipher” the poem?

    It is my opinion that as many as a hundred different people have been within those 200 feet and not known it. Again, the question in my head is, “why”? How could they be so close in proximity and not know it? I am pretty sure I’ve shared in other spots on this blog that 200 feet in a wooded area just about ensures no “line of sight” and that one needs to be a lot closer to see the blaze.

    In part, that explains why Forrest can be so confident in his saying to the effect, that the person who knows where to look will walk confidently up to the chest – something along those lines. The remaining clues in the poem are the “key” to narrowing down the search parameters – at least, that’s what is making sense to me right now.

    But what do I know, as I have not found it yet either?

    Good luck to all!

    • Yes Swwot, I am new to the blog. I learned about the chase two months ago. I know, but I have been busy with family and my patients. But I got involved and read the book several times and figured it out- — I believe. I am unable to search and don’t want to wait all winter. I need to know if my answer is correct and I think it is. Based on all my research it all matches. And I base my information on facts.

      I have been a whisperer and know I want to know the answers.

      • Paul,

        I suspect others will chime in concerning your request to partner up, but for myself I will decline – for any number of reasons, but mainly because I think you should simply wait until you can get into the woods for yourself to see if what you think could be true, is in fact, true. If it isn’t, there worst that has occurred is that you’ve been out enjoying the woods.

        Good luck!

      • I have a hard time understanding how someone could “trust” a stranger enough with this. What is stopping a person that you partner up with from claiming it wasn’t there IF you were indeed right? Nothing. I personally wouldn’t be giving away free info about where I think it is. But that is just me.

        • You show me one stranger who believes in another mans solution. Each person has there own ideas that are right. Try convincing digging gypsy that it isn’t around Hebgen or tell Dal it isn’t in Yellowstone. If I told you I know exactly where Fenn hid his treasure you’d laugh and say yea right. Every man is right in his own eyes.

          • so true; my fear of being scooped is near zero. I doubt even the presumed “lurkers” are without rather strong predispositions.

            I even have trouble just reading all of someone’s solution; as soon as I see the “wrong” state, or use of a cipher, or ANY symbology I glaze over

        • Tickle-
          You must have been raised by wolves over on chasechat 🙂

          Everyone on this blog is smart, cool, dependable and has a heart of gold.

          • LOL!! That hurts dal!! Remember the honey, guy, remember the honey!! 🙂 🙂

            Just kinking your tail a little. Thanks again for hosting this site and everything you and Goofy do!!! (and, for putting up with some folks) 🙂 🙂

      • Paul, Your reference to “park” makes me think you are “looking” in Yellowstone. My area is nearby. I don’t know if I’ll be able to make a trip this fall, but if you’re spot is near enough, I would make a side trip for you. josephljones

    • swwot,

      1. IMO still debatable. but not unlikely that you maybe correct.
      2. yes.
      3. agree, we don’t know for sure.
      4. we were told to trips in one afternoon. “walking” may be part of that travel. I’m not going to look it up again, but I’m pretty sure walking back to his car was the only walking mentioned.
      5. yep.
      6. 7. 8. 9. yep
      10. I thought 300 miles but I don’t consider it much help anyways.

      IMO the only thing that helps here was the intent to have the spot his final resting place. I can safely say… Not in a tree. imo.

      Yeah the 200′ is perplexing. “IF” someone “knew” they were that close… 40,000 square feet, about the size of my front yard, even in a wooded area I would hope it could be found just by a grid search [ blaze or no blaze] Or one acre is 43,560 sq ft. So I don’t think anyone truly knew how close they were.
      Of course we have some who say they knew and call it themselves the “200′ club…” well, um… all I can say is, those folks probably can’t find their sock draw either.

      One afternoon, a six hour time span, of less than acre of wooded area and not find a hidden chest? IMO The chest can be found… if a searcher “knew” it was the correct location.

      • Seeker – I couldn’t agree more. If one knew where to look, he or she would find it. I know that sounds profound, but in my opinion, that’s exactly what Forrest is after – for someone to solve the poem, not stumble across the chest in the woods using a grid pattern.

    • Swwot,
      You might want to review the importance of some things on your list.

      #10 I think you got wrong …it was 300 miles. But is that really important?….all of the RM’s fall into that category. This was a “joke” clue.

      #9 F has stated (and I agree) anything placed/hidden in the RM’s is going to get wet eventually and he stated this is not a clue.

      #8 mostly true for anywhere in the RM’s with a few exceptions.

      #1/2 are still mixed. We have indications that these folks may or may not have known the importance of where they were and may or may not have actually solved the clues.

      • Colokid:

        I agree with you on your assessment….especially regarding #1/2.

        Those who have solved the first two clues are not aware that they did, so I don’t see that as useful information for anyone. I will not comment on any solutions that are sent to me by email. Good luck sir. F 12/30/14
        I know of a few searchers who have been reasonably close to the treasure puttputt, but there is no indication that they knew it. No one has given me the correct solve past the first two clues.f

        The above statements were made by Forrest less than a year ago. Since then he has not said anything to the contrary.

        1. Those who have solved the first two clues are not aware that they did

        2. I know of a few searchers who have been reasonably close to the treasure puttputt, but there is no indication that they knew it.

        ???? Even if some or all of the searchers who were reasonably close were also the ones who have solved the first two clues (but don’t know it), how could they miss one of the later clues? Were they just visiting that area and didn’t consider it related to the Chase, at all? ???? – -> slow down and read carefully, seeker 🙂

        food for thought ( 🙂 …stole that from seeker)

        • correction;

          “The above statements were made by Forrest less than a year ago.”

          I intended to say, “The above statements were made by Forrest. One was less than 2 years ago and one less than a year.”

          LOL!! Yeah, I know old yeller…..old age!!! 🙂

          Good Luck Everybody!!!

    • Swwot, good summary. Your list of ‘big ones’ is similar to mine, although I think your #10 is probably a joke ;-).

      IMHO FF said that Some People solved the first two clues and passed within 200 feet of the TC but he doesn’t say what the first two clues are. The people who knew the first two clues didn’t have the other clues figured out correctly.

      Is WWWH the first clue? Is “canyon down” the second clue? FF often reads the poem starting with “Begin it WWWH” so it is very tempting to think so, but there are so many places in the Rocky Mountains WWWH. HOB is another candidate, IMHO.

      Anyway, my list has additional facts which I have weighted with higher or lower “truth” or significance. I remember Goofy was working on a database of weighted information last January. I’d be interested in any thoughts anyone has on how they weight uncertainty in importance or truth in their lists.

  40. I am unable to search do to family obligations stated above, and I would like someone to partner with and divulge everything.. I am unwilling to sit all winter and wait. I would like to know the answer before the Park closes and is to difficult to search. I can not so I need someone to go and partner with. Al I ask is a small reward. A part is better than nothing at all. Also a copy of Forrest 20,000 page memoir in the sealed glass bottle and to make sure the bracelet is given back to Forrest–he deserves that for all he has given us.

    Remember his family is very important and he wants to be back in the middle again.

    • @Paul re: partnering up, can’t help you, don’t plan on selling the TC when I find it, going to re-hide and continue the chase, also going to market the Bio in some form of book and I’m keeping the bracelet because ff never emails me back! lol! Oh, and I’m a NM searcher…..

      • Cholly… That is an awesome idea! How fun would that be… I would give Forrest his bracelet back though… Maybe put my own bracelet back in for the next finder…. I can’t write poetry so well though so it may take me 15 years to come up with a poem… Lol

      • Cholly, I like the way you think. I would like a little money to pay off my medical school loans so I could become a full time seeker with my family 🙂

        Paul T

    • paul agree with others to wait till you can go. even if someone goes looking for you and they dont find the TC you will go nuts till you can go look. we had to wait 6 months to go search then hubby got his shoulder hurt and we had to wait 4 more months. lol we still didnt find it but we havent fully search our area.

  41. If the chest is not buried or submerged in water, would summertime heat in the two southern search states compromise the wax around the top of the olive jar?

    • If you can believe Wikipedia – parrafin wax melts between 115 F and 154 F. At an altitude above 5000 feet in the shade (lid is closed) I think it is pretty safe from being compromised.

    • The chest is in-lined with wood [ what type I don’t now ] the jar is most likely cover by the coins and ‘maybe’ fenn put a cloth around the glass jar for protection from those coins. Anyways, that seems to be a lot of insulation, even if the chest was in full sunlight @ 95 or so degrees. Would be a good experiment though. Do you have a bronze chest and 265 gold coins laying around? I’ll buy the olives.

        • Why didn’t i think of that? lol.

          While we are on the subject of ‘ he thought of everything ‘ … how do you take that comment? Some like the idea he thought of how the finder would not have to pay taxes [ that’s wishful thinking, but it’s nice to wish on things ] Some say there’s a will inside leaving the chest to the finder… etc.

          Could 15 years of “planning” include, in part, every possible interpretation a person can come up with… step by step, theme, a single location for all the clues, clues stretch over miles, Codes and ciphers, constellations, different language, metal detectors, solstice, coordinates, 42 degree angle of a rainbow, lakes, waterfalls, creeks and rivers, dry basins, elevations, Ranger Rick’s uniform, Goofy’s weegee board mouse pad. etc. Thoughts of how to solve the poem, and if so… is this why we see all those within the poem?

          I ask because, would it be more likely that the clues are all close together, just for the above hypothetical? and maybe why the first clue is so important?

          Just thinking out loud.

          • Seeker,
            That’s a tough one.

            I don’t think it’s possible to “think of everything” literally. If I was to guess I’d say it was things like how the chest was placed to weather the elements/last 1000 years, structuring the clues based on how people would attempt to solve them, considerations of clue difficultly, legal implications, and perhaps how the trove could be legally transferred with the least inconvenience to the finder.

            15 years is along time to consider stuff like that so I’m sure he did plan and considered many things.

            I’ve always wondered if the quote (“It seems logical to me that a deep thinking treasure searcher could use logic to determine an important clue to the location of the treasure. “) is a tip to the puzzle structure and perhaps hints at how he figured a way to out-fox us… date.

          • Seeker I agree with you. With Forrest comments it makes sense that the first two clues puts you in close proximity. And one of his favorite saying that at the end of all of our exploring we end up where we started and see the place for the first time.
            Also a coriolis effect.

          • IMO Fenn has made other similar certain statement concerning the chest that he would know if the chest is found…etc. ..the fact that he thought of everything on this as well seems to me he thought of every potential eventualities and may have put some scheme in play to help him know,,,,,for instance he may have put a certain unique telephone number in the chest or unique email address in the chest and may have put a statement that says if you call me on the number or write me on this email address you will get a certain valuable painting or something similar etc..with such or similar mechanism he would know when the chest is located…all IMO


          • TT,
            Forrest mentioned somewhere–not gonna try to dig it up–that he had at one time included a [IOU?] or something that would tell him proof positive Indulgence was found.

            Then he said he couldn’t recall if he left it in there or not.

            I recall someone mentioning that there were items in it that he has not revealed, which could be another way he could use to be sure.

            But I have to agree with Forrest, that whoever finds it will not be capable of keeping quiet about it. I wouldn’t, though I might possibly be able to keep the location secret. I like to think I could leave a little something worth finding there…just to keep people looking.

          • Joseph, Do you mean these?

            Are there any objects placed in the Bronze Chest that are connected, or have meaning to the place the chest is hidden? ~ Mike
            .No Mike, everything in the chest is straight forward and visual, except my autobiography, which some might find dull. Oops, I forgot, there is one thing in the chest that I have not talked about except to say I don’t want to talk about it. It is something saved especially for the person who solves the clues. I think that person will be pleased when she sees it. f


            I have figured out there is no treasure.  This is a medical study being done by Dr. Fenn concerning the use of riddles to help delay the effects of Alzheimers Disease.
            We are the case study to prove his theory that by doing riddles helps your ability to keep your mind healthy.  This will soon be published in the PubMeds that are available to all doctors.  The population at large will only get a brief overview of the complete study, which will more then likely not help much.
            Looking forward to receiving your memoir, researching has been a lot of fun for my son and me.  He is very excited about our trip.  Which I think will be in June for 2 weeks.
            I am concerned about one thing about the quest, should I carry a firearm (as laws permit)?  Its more to do with safety with wildlife there, then protecting from other people.  But I guess that wouldn’t be a bad idea either.
            Hope all is well

            I hid the treasure chest at the first onset of dementia. I knew I had a disease so I made myself a note that revealed the exact location because I wanted later on to give some additional clues. Now I don’t remember where I put the note. Maybe if I search my fishing box I can find what it is that I was looking for. But why would I want to fish in this weather? I’ll go ask my wife Phyllis where my tool kit is.

          • Seeker,

            Yes on the “something special”, but neg on the reminder note–it was a video I think where he said he had included [?IOU?–I just don’t recall, a check that he would see had been cashed? some sort of thing that would be of value only if the finder “cashed it in” ]

            ….that he subsequently may or may not have removed……

    • I would say it is a definite possibility. It would get very hot inside, like a car. There are far too many other reasons why I think it is in Yellowstone anyway.

      Paul T.

      • What I remember from Physics class way back in high school (in the 70’s) was that conductive energy is more stable than radiant energy. In layman’s terms – a block of metal setting on the ground is more inclined to remain the temperature of the ground beneath it than the be warmed substantially by the sunlight bouncing off of it. Any kid who picks up a rock off the ground knows that the bottom is cooler than the top, and that if he puts it in his pocket it feels cool – even if he puts the “warm side” against his leg. (Yes, I was an inquisitive kid – none of you are surprised, I’m sure.)

        Additionally, for radiant energy to get really cooking, the energy waves need to “pass through” a translucent membrane of some kind and in so doing slow down enough that it can no longer pass through a second time, thereby being trapped “inside” the container. Again, in layman’s terms that’s why cars get hot in the sunlight. The bronze chest has no such features. Actually, because of all the carvings, if left in direct light, many of the rays wouold be deflected and not absorbed because of the angles of attack.

        I like seeker’s approach in duplicating the experiment to verify the hypothesis – even if he gets to buy the olives. 🙂

        • Sorry Swwot,
          You are mixing up your physics a bit. You are trying to combine radiant heat transfer with the greenhouse effect and those are two different things.

          Solids will either absorb or reflect different wavelengths of light energy based on the material properties. So we would have to look up the properties of Bronze to see how it reacts to UV and IR radiation. Transparency is not required for heating to occur. This would all be base on the radiant flux available from the sun, box area, amount of energy absorbed vs reflected, and time.

          The greenhouse effect works like this. UV radiation enters the car because glass is transparent to that wavelength. The interior absorbs that energy and re-emits it as IR. Glass is opaque to IR so that energy is reflected back into the car (its trapped in the car) and the car interior temperature rises.

          There would be some energy balance between the box, the air temperature, and whatever it sits on but over time both solids would attempt to reach an equilibrium temperature.

          Metals are good conductors (esp. gold) so there would be no “insulation” around the glass bottle. Exterior heat would quickly be conducted to the box contents.

          • I stand corrected – thanx Colokid. Perhaps I should have said simply that there is no glass on the outside of the chest so that it could heat up like what happens in a car, and let it be. (And it was a long time ago that I had to remember from.) 🙂

        • I can save myself a couple bucks on the olive and just add, Gold is a great heat deflector. It’s use on satellites and other space going crafts just for that reason. Bronze works well in that regards too, just not as well. Now I have another experiment with olives that you might like better… which taste better with olives gin or vodka?

  42. I think everyone’s biggest frustration is in finding solid indications to a starting region. That info may be given in the book, and it may be in the Thumb/Philadelphia story.

    I don’t know how to manipulate the GE navigation tools, but this probably should be looked into by them that do. Stephenville Field’s latitude is near the Canadian/USA border. Pope Field shares Santa Fe’s Latitude. Philly is on the 39° which runs west thru Colorado.

    Right before the poem in the book there are two things that I think hint at a solve technique… a cut and pasted page, and a cut and pasted photo of coins.

    I think Fenns N-S flight route needs to be cut and pasted over the chase states, matching up Pope with Santa Fe, but with this twist…. Don’t slide it over, flip it over… the mirror image… like turning a page in a book. Then locate two points on the 39th parallel, where his plane crossed and where Philly is.

    Its worth a try. You de-CIDE.

    • OS2,

      I agree that puzzling out the first clue is a leading cause of frustration. It most likely is the hardest clue even though some may have guessed it. We also know that F has harped on the importance of that clue being the only way of figuring out the rest. Why is that?

      IMO it is because this geographically anchors the search and that leads to identification and locating the rest of the clues.

      However, I don’t see how either of these air fields or Philly can play a role….none of those are in the Rocky Mountains.

      • Read it again Colokid… its about folding a map vertically and kissing 4 points on the right half to the left half. Good luck.

        • OS2,
          My apologies….I didn’t read that carefully. It’s even more far-fetched then I originally thought. You must be a fan of the Mad magazine back cover Fold-In’s by Al Jaffee.

          • I thought it was pretty clever and logical.

            Fenn described a detailed flight path outside the Rockies… it had nothing to do with the Chase area. Why?

            The story was fictionalized. That plane didn’t hold enough fuel, nor fly at that height (noted in a prior post, I’ll not bother to look for).

            There are other anomalies that brought attention to the story, like the number 13 mentioned 3 times, one being Friday the 13th, another, covering the LEFT eye with the LEFT thumb and turning an oxygen-masked helmeted-head far right to cover Philly’s nightlights (hard to do I think).

            But the map idea & defined crossed lines stuck with me …. a N-S line crosses an E-W Line, with 3 named points, one on each line, and two of them coincidental to the Chase limits. Maybe when Fenn said you need a map and a flashlight he meant a map and a beam… like a lazer beam highlighting the long distance..

            There are other reasons too complex to state briefly. Colokid,I think you are half accurate, it is FAR, but I think fetchable.

            If any navigators can locate the area the flipped map indicates in the otherwise unmentioned state of Colorado, (approx. along the 39th parallel) please let me know. I have no BOG intentions, just curiosity.

          • To visualize what I am describing, go to GE and draw a red line from Stephenville Field NF to Pope Field NC. Then draw another line on the 39th parallel from the Atlantic coast, thru Philly, to Utah. It runs thru Leadville.

    • Interesting OS2. Could possibly work. Also I take the Philly story as an important piece in the book. He feels alone and just a part of the whole. Important statement that he states again and again throughout the book. Like a piece of pie.

    • Well…

      Maybe we need to take the poem and fold it into a typical paper airplane and see what words are still visible.

      I bet Mindy tries it out as soon as she reads this! If she still has any pages left, that is. 🙂

      Scott W

      • LOL Q1,
        That kind of heresy will get you crucified on her Hotspot.

        F said: “All of the information you need to find the treasure is in the poem.”

        I think people come up with some wonderfully imaginative ideas here but quickly forget this quote. The litmus test is whether the proposed solution/idea can be derived solely from the poem. Notice I’m not saying other things won’t help confirm it, but the baseline clues need to be tied directly back to the poem or this quote is false. I can’t see any other interpretation.

        • So let’s fold that poem into a paper airplane and see what we get!

          The results can’t be any worse than burning the pages. At least we can still slide the poem back in the book when we are done – with a few creases.

          FYI – all in fun. No ill intentions intended. I enjoy ready what Mindy has to say.

          In my opinion, I am just being silly.

          Scott W

        • So you guys have no plan to locate a search region, just gonna wander, looking for a WWH to line up with a hoB to line up with a Blaze, when you don’t really know what any of them is? Yep?

          I’d like to hear your better ideas.

          • OS2,
            I should have added:

            “All that will be needed are the clues, some resolve, a little imagination………..” (dust jacket of The Thrill of the Chase)

            “Nobody is going to happen on that treasure chest. You’re gonna have to figure out the clues in the poem and go to it.” (Moby Dickens video, Nov.2, 2013)

          • OS2,

            I spilled the beans on a bunch of solves and ideas over time. Unfortunately they only relied on the poem.

            Just posted an idea a few minutes ago, not a solve. Also not a point-to-point approach.

            Just an idea.

            Scott W

      • Scott, get with the program.

        Fold it into a F100C with a little GI w/ parachute tucked in the fold and then shoot it down over a giant map of the Rockies and see where the little guy lands…and….there ya go.

        (Hint: put some red paint on the little GI’s feet so you can tell exactly where he landed.)

    • OS2,

      Would you consider what you just explained as a deliberate action of the Author, if this is needed to be used to solve the poem?

      If you must move and join anything from one part of the book to another, even if it is the next page, wouldn’t the Author have to deliberately line up those to make them usable.

      “All of the information you need to find the treasure is in the poem. The chapters in my book have very subtle hints but are not deliberately placed to aid the seeker. Good luck in the search. f”

      Full Q&A;

      “Dear Mr. Fenn,
      We are a group of avid elderly bridge players in San Diego who after reading your book hope to find your treasure. We are not into poetry as much as the memoir. We realize the clues are in the poem, but were wondering if there isn’t at least one clue in each chapter.
      Thank you for a great book. Sincerely, Emily,
      Forrest’s succinct response:Emily,
      All of the information you need to find the treasure is in the poem. The chapters in my book have very subtle hints but are not deliberately placed to aid the seeker. Good luck in the search. f”

      • Seeker, I don’t understand your first question, as for the second… I am not cutting and pasting the books pages, just the ideas in the book … so you poem purists can skip this.

        I learned cut & paste in first grade (and I have some serious ideas about First Grade and Ora Mae too!) and I learned C&P again 50 years later in a computer tutorial. Old and new cutting & pasting….. but that’s not what I think the poem’s old and new refers to. Consider this cut and paste idea: The Axe-man graphic always puzzled me, seemed out of place. I think it fits in Flywater, with Fenn’s comments about Peggy being a “…. wife, who always allowed me the luxury of doing the things I thought were important.” The axe-man’s stumps are those ‘things’, their count is not important; and the moon & dove are symbols of peaceful waiting Peggy. Not an earthshaking insight… just a simple cut and paste example. It liberates the boundaries, and its not ciphery.

        I don’t take “you only need the poem” with the rigidity you guys do. You find gold in the sluice, not in the dam. (I made that up, I have no idea if it’s true). What do you think?

        I’m hitting the sack now. G’night.

        • OS2,

          You stated;
          “I think Fenns N-S flight route needs to be cut and pasted over the chase states, matching up Pope with Santa Fe, but with this twist…. Don’t slide it over, flip it over… the mirror image… like turning a page in a book. Then locate two points on the 39th parallel, where his plane crossed and where Philly is.”

          For this or any part of the book to be a layover on a map etc, would that not be a deliberate hint.?
          This is not about poem purist… but something from the book that is a needed piece of the puzzle and without it the poem can’t be solved.
          That seems to me a deliberate act on the Authors part, and not very subtle as well.

          This is why I questioned about the usage. Is there information in the book that helps with thinking of how to solve the poem… sure. Yet we have been told time and again he didn’t deliberately place something to aid the searcher.

          So wouldn’t that have to be deliberate to find a clue such as the 39th parallel? Maybe I’m not understanding how you use it.

          • Seeker, I don’t have the time now to explain why my free spirit should be locked behind your “What Fenn Said” bars. But I do have reasons. Maybe later tonight. Go in peace.

          • You can say, I’m locked in if you like… I say, just attempting to stay within the parameters of what we have been told. There is always a grey area when trying to understand Fenn’s comments for the most part.

            I would like to hear your line of thinking on your reasoning.

          • Lo Seeker… Its been a messy day, haven’t read or reviewed the posts, but wanted to get back to you, so this is going to be quick and rough.
            I think the oft-quoted rules Fenn laid on us have gotten rigid & entrenched beyond Fenn’s intention by posters repetitions of them to bolster their own positions.

            We agree “You only need the poem” doesn’t mean don’t use the book. But the endless slicing and dicing, posting and reposting of Fenn quotes to debate words like hint/clue/only/deliberate has become exhaustingly boring.

            Words have meaning of course, but their context is loaded with tone and undercurrent. Fenn spent 15 years writing a precise poem to both disclose and hide one fact; then warned “don’t mess with it”. OK, but lets give broader latitude to words he said in conversational exchanges, radio interviews, to bridge ladies trying to ensnare a private advantage.

            I can’t determine if WWH is a small trail head or the whole hunting ground, but being a free-thinking armchair enthusiast, I turned to the book for clues, hints, slips, distortions, coincidences, repetitions, colorations and tones … whatever … which might shed some light in this grand game and where it begins. And I found many. That’s cool. The next step is to use them, play them, to figure out why they are there. If it doesn’t pan out, OK, always more knowledge is gained than lost. Hoofing 4 states for an elusive string of a WWH, hoB, and a Blaze, not knowing what they even are, hasn’t done too well either, so what’s the harm?
            Embrace the wide and narrow paths.

            I suspect even Fenn wouldn’t accept the limits of his own words as now carved in stone. Sure, he said those things, but would he obey them himself? Free thinking is complicated and contradictory. His educational method is – use all your senses. I think it likewise it means use all the tools and opportunities you can. Follow what tickles you, Study the book – or not, break the rules or not, cut and paste if you choose, work out the geometry, geology or geography of whatever catches your eye. You never know until you know. Then again, at times, I like to plod incremental step by incremental step looking for tiny flaws. Always enjoy the sharing, not always the mentoring or policing.

            Cheers, OS

          • I think the oft-quoted rules Fenn laid on us have gotten rigid & entrenched beyond Fenn’s intention by posters repetitions of them to bolster their own positions.

            I suspect even Fenn wouldn’t accept the limits of his own words as now carved in stone. Sure, he said those things, but would he obey them himself? Free thinking is complicated and contradictory.

            To heck with all those rigid and entrenched rules…….Let your mind flow free.

            I GOT IT!!! The chest is in Utah below 5000 ft. underneath an outhouse that’s in a graveyard. How could we have missed that. 🙂

          • Ah, the slippery slope argument. If you turn that telescope around son, you’ll just see a lot of useless squiggily stuff.

            What are your thoughts on the Philly/Thumb story & its false details? Didn’t Fenn say that he placed no red herrings?

  43. No stranger to “airports”; Ive totally enjoyed researching ‘early’ air fields….The earliest depiction of one located nearest to West Yellowstone was discovered on a 1934 ID Department of Public Works Airport map.

    “West Yellowstone Auxiliary Airfield”…. adjourns West Yellowstone (City). It had a landing strip of 5000’x500′ and was located Northeast/Southwest; between Tahoe Highway (U S highway #20) and railroad. ( It could be helpful to perform a search on “Abandoned and Little Known Airfields?)

    It wouldn’t be a surprise learning that our favorite, “Flyer Forrest”…..has a natural appreciation and respect for most things related to early day aviation.

    If I was still physically able to; I would be out there loving “The Thrill of the “Chase.”

  44. Posibbaly the wrong place to post but this is getting the most hits. But the statement about a deep thinker has been brought up here. It is part of a clue, sort of.

    A question for Dal or Goofy or any of y’all “I’m keeping track of everything” kind of person….

    What was the exact date in April 2014 that SB 61 was posted on the blog?

    • James-
      Look at the URL for that post…or any post on this blog and you will see the date it was published is part of the URL.

      • scott have you seen a Dr. that realy you we dont see you using those little faces. lol not that you are not friendly

  45. OK – I’m putting on my “Seeker” cap. I like that Seeker seems to ask questions rather than give opinions. So here we go with the “bigger-picture” solve rather than a point to point approach.

    Begin it where warm waters halt AND take it in the canyon down. Perhaps the “warm waters halt something and then takes IT into the canyon down.

    Let’s also take the entire poem as a contiguous set of clues rather than a consecutive set so we can build the picture.

    What WWWH exists in numerous locations north of Santa Fe but not South? If I also put a geography hat on, I might think of certain geographical features; features that are likely to last a millennium.

    An example might be a cirque. It’s a place where a glacier has carved out a nice bowl (or cauldron) into a mountain which fills with water (typically).

    Scientifically, a cirque is – a steep, amphitheater-shaped hollow occurring at the upper end of a mountain valley, especially one forming the head of a glacier or stream. Cirques are formed by the erosive activity of glaciers and often contain a small lake.

    So let’s assume we think it is a cirque, just as an exercise for the method. Since these features are located high in the mountains, one might associate this as falling into the category of “waters high”. If the cirque is full of water (a lake) it will also be cold.

    Keeping with the big picture method, a cirque is also an amphitheater shaped hollow. “Hear me all and listen good.” Seems to fit.

    Since these features are created by glaciers, the water in the cirque typically drains into a canyon below. “take IT into the canyon down”. Seems to fit.

    With this line of reasoning, I might be looking for a cirque that somehow relates to a home of Brown. Is there a cirque that drains into a canyon that is located below a geographical, spacial, or time-based feature, or former event, that relates to Brown in some form or fashion?

    One could argue that the entire poem points to a single place on the map, not point to point directions.

    So, where could this cirque be? Which one?

    Well, Summit Lake comes to mind. Summit Lake is the highest lake in the united states (certainly “waters high”). Even though Summit Lake is higher than 10,200 feet, I am not suggesting that is where the chest might rest. I’m simply proposing a process for identifying a viable WWWH.

    I would have kept typing, but I know most people don’t read post that are this long;less longer much Didn’t want to discourage fellow ADD chasers. 🙂

    Scott W.

    • I have no idea what happened with that last sentence. Should have said – Didn’t’ want to discourage my fellow ADD chasers.

      I think some extra words where left over.

      Scott W

    • One small problem… Fenn said, there are many WWWH and most or nearly all are north of SF.

      Can you find the same description as above, of a cirque below SF? I think the starting point is much more unique. A place that stands out from all others, yet is the same as all the others. If that makes sense.

      • Seeker,

        Perhaps I am misunderstood, or I misrepresented. They are all North of Santa Fe.

        I talking north of SF. As in Summit Lake.


        Scott W.

        • Right. Some should be below. fenn said WWWH are both above and below SF…. in so many words…. This is what killed my last theory, so at least some should be below SF or it can’t work, whatever someones WWWH is. At least that is the way I read his comment.
          How do you read into his comment?

          • Seeker – just brainstorming and asking clarification – do you mean “below” as in elevation or “below” as in South of on a map?

          • The comment was… there are many WWWH in the RM’s and nearly all are north of SF.

            I read that as, some WWWH have to be South [ below as south] of SF as well. So should an idea of WWWH not be south of SF and only north… it doesn’t seem to fit or be correct.

            There was another comment about were the clues around when he was a kid. fenn answered no to the clues, but said most of the places the clues refer to did

            Can that mean a physical place that wasn’t around when he was younger or a clue that is not a place?

            I’m just playing devils advocate trying to see how the comments, Q&A’s etc. line up.

          • Darn – I wish this site had an edit button. What I am thinking and what ends up on the blog are having a difficult time agreeing with each other.

            There ARE cirques South of Santa Fe.

            There aren’t many, but they do exist. In fact, there are some south of Albuquerque.

            So – I would classify a cirque as being a possible WWWH which exists mainly North of Santa Fe.

            Scott W.

          • Scott,

            Then that works. Now the question is… how can it be different or have importance to the poem?
            Right now you have narrowed down the field of WWWH significantly. But something still needs to point to one, imo.

            Something has to point to a single starting point if WWWH is part of that starting point. This is why I think WWH is not the very first clue but is a must to understanding the first clue.

            Or maybe a better way of saying it… the first three lines in stanza 2 [sentence]
            may be all-in-one.

            I’ll leave that statement open for now, cuz i know someone will say… FF said there are 3 or 4 clues in that.

          • Just another thought here. He does say “in the RM’s…” and technically the RM’s don’t extend south of SF. So maybe there doesn’t have to be anything south or his thought was not fully developed when he spoke.

          • Seeker,

            I have an appreciation of your thoughts, but not of your ‘in so many words’ statements. The recent quotations you provided and I repeated were misleading to other folks. I will try not to quote anything without links to verify them anymore. It’s only the right thing to do, for me.

            Apologies to all.

          • uken2it,

            LOL!! Just saw your apology upstairs here. Time wasn’t wasted, heck I might of decided to re-listen to it tomorrow anyway.

            And thanks for trying to find the rest of that comment Seeker “quoted”…..after seeker invoked the wolf’s name, that does sound like an opinion Wolf might write out and add the “dame fortune” at the end for drama.

            And, I hope ypu don’t think I was berating you for it. I’ve misplaced links on notes also and I get mad at myself. I just didn’t want you (or anyone else) to base something in a possible solution on that.

            And, I hope you nor anyone else takes offense with seeker and me. We been keeping each other “honest” (and locking horns 🙂 ) for a long time.

            And, don’t be too rough on seeker for posting it. He’s getting a little long in the tooth, also. I really gat tired of his nonstop, incessant, never-ending and left-field/right-field questions…………..BUT, I wouldn’t change him for anything (he makes me think)!!! 🙂 🙂

            Good Luck uken (you’ve always made me think also) :0

          • Loco,
            Thanks for taking things in stride and lightly. I am in the chase mostly for being the person who solves the poem and for the gold coins to add to my hobby coin collection. So I enjoy hearing how others approach the poem. Especially the ideas that make me think incent me to playing with the methods outside the poem.

            It seems that most folks here want to approach the poem at face value but lately I have abandoned that way of thinking, again, and have been looking at the first stanza having more than one solve which might be combined into a whole which will either be the first clue, or the title to the poem or the method to approach the poem.

            The poem having no title might also gave permission to rotate the poem or put another way find the actual first stanza. All my opinion of course and no quotes above

          • uken,

            Seems there are a lot of folks around these days who want dismiss or disregard things Fenn has said. Or they say that’s not what he meant when he has made a statement that is unambiguous and not left open to translation.

            I hesitate to submit this because, after all, it is second-hand and not made by Fenn at all.

            dal on January 9, 2014 at 9:13 pm said:
            … the way. A couple of years ago I had a discussion with Forrest about “halt” not rhyming with “walk”. I was suggesting that one of those words might not be the right word and once the real word was put in place…and rhymed…that things became much clearer…

            Forrest listened to me for a little bit and then jumped in and told me very directly, “Don’t mess with my poem.”

            So I have not tried to change his poem in any way since then…

            I believe dal that Fenn made that statement……, I don’t think it’s a very good idea to add to or move anything around. Just read the Poem precisely and do as instructed.

            🙂 IMO, IMO…………..loco

          • Loco
            In the context of replacing a word in the poem; of course don’t mess with it that way. After 15 years of building the poem don’t take one word away from the poem. After all, all but a few words are required for the solve. Don’t take a word of it away.

            i am hesitant to accuse others of wrongfully messing with the poem unless it is in the context above.


          • uke,


            However, Forrest apparently did not limit his meaning to only the words. He did not say, “don’t mess with the ‘words'” or “don’t mess with the punctuation”…. I’m pretty sure he meant the entire Poem.

            Some things Fenn says, you may be safe in discounting. However, I feel that most have to be given serious consideration.

            🙂 Who knows?? Someone, someday, may prove that we are all wrong!! LOL! 🙂

          • F said something really close to this… ” There are hundreds of places in the Rockies WWWH, most of them are above Sante Fe.” Someone correct me if I am way off. IMO

        • I think people mess with the poem cause of the struggle to make it fit their solution, if you have to make it fit that IMO might not be the correct place. I like the fact Dal gets some useful information when needed and when you get off track with mislead statements from Forrest that he Corrects you cause the grapevine effect would have it 20 years from now saying Forrest hid the chest in the fountain of youth in Florida and rode a alligator to it.

      • Seeker,

        So we agree. A cirque fits the statement that (paraphrasing) most are north of SF.

        So now we have to find that special one.

        What do we know about them? They are all at high altitudes. Some are high altitude lakes. Some are actually ice fields (snow pack) that remain year round – AKA glaciers. Some have no water (liquid or otherwise) at all; they’re known also as rock glaciers.

        So, I might say that Summit Lake, a “waters high lake” in a cirque, might be WWWH.

        I don’t like Summit lake.

        Sure – it’s a cirque. It’s water high. Echo Canyon below, The road to get up/down is not for the meek. King Solomon’s Gulch (wise) is right down the road, etc.

        However, I might also say that Spruce Creek Rock Glacier is a better fit.

        I might say this because:
        there is no water,
        it has “Spruce” (wood), Creek, and “Rock” ( heavy loads) in its name.
        AND… It is located in the Tenmile Range – too far too walk.

        I know you aren’t a physical name guy, but hey –

        I have identified the following:

        1. A potential WWH type which almost entirely exists north of SF, but a few south.

        2. a specific cirque with a label that has “wood”, “creek”, and rock (loads).

        3. Dry cirques are known as amphitheaters (hear me all and listen good – as in echo)

        4. It is located in a range (warm) that has a label which indicates a distance that might be too far to walk.

        5. It fits your theory that the entire poem pinpoints a place, and does not lay out a point to point path.

        Then again – like I have said before – I can make ANYTHING fit if I put my mind to it.

        Going crazy in Austin,
        Scott W

    • I had not heard of the terme cirque before. I have looked at locations where the ‘bowl’ shaped location is sometimes filled with water and other times dry. My thinking included a possible reason f will not speak about buried or not and wet or not. I dont recall where I found it but believe it was in Colorado or WY.

  46. I was researching phrases in the poem and came across this “in the wood” reference = A person who falls for any trick and believes any story no matter how silly is an example of a babe in the woods. I doubt this how hidden treasure is a ruse by FF – but this does make me take pause.

    • Mason, while you pause, and think about rouses, Have a good laugh at me! While perusing old scrap books today, I actually considered that Forrest, in his retired rancher persona, may have hid it under his old horse trailer in the woods. LOL! Basic camp trailers are one place warm waters halt…in addition to giving a false sense of security while in grizzly country. And while you’re laughing, I think there could be a knock-knock joke woven through the poem. It would be like Forrest to “horse around” with us and end it with a knock-knock joke.

      OK – I’m now trying to find my deep-thinking hat, and sound intelligent again.

      • Anna, your probably tuned into the right frequency with those deep thoughts. A horse has a white wedge shape blaze on the nose SO yea he probably did put it DIrectly below the horse blaze rock. Only a hillbilly would think of this though so get out yer billy goat and ride that rough terrain to the treasure incide Erebor middle-earth is counting on you perhaps the Arkenstone will be there.

  47. I still feel the poem is a riddle. If I wrote a poem with clues and put…”It’s red and green and goes a hundred mph”, the answer would be a frog in a blender. (Sorry frog lovers).
    It’s putting a puzzle together, piece by piece, each clue is a direction or name of a location. But since it is such a special place to him, I think it is more directional, begin here, go x far, park here, turn here, cross here, look down here, take it and leave before you are seen.
    It was there when he was a younger, and now that parks and tourist spots, ect, are more developed, this place could be a popular area, whereas before, was unknown but to a few wandering fisherman, and boys who wanted to walk in the steps of great explorers.
    Kids love riddles and their minds are simple. Maybe, us adults, are over thinking this thing, making it more difficult than it really is…and Fenn is depending on that!
    I think White Knight did impress F on his style of thinking. Maybe it is not the right solve, but his approach to the problem impressed him. Maybe we need to de-rationalize our thinking, and get back to the basics of a simple thought process.
    Sometimes things can seem so complicared, yet have a simple answer…
    What starts in Earth,
    Is second in Heaven,
    Has two in a week,
    And in a sea?
    ¥peace ¥

    • I do think the solve is simpler than people think and over complicated thinking leads you further away from the truth

      • Old Choctaw
        You may be overthinking the simplicity of the poem or said in another way, underthnkinking the complexity of f’s process of architectural activities in crafting a poem over a 15 year period.

    • Hi Donna,
      I think most of what you said here bears considering. Coincidentally, Im putting together an in-depth article for the blog along these same lines.

      The only think I would disagree with is fenn being impressed with Mr. Knight. IMO he’s completely way off in left field and his methods are counter to what Fenn has told us.

      I think that maybe we should collectively start calling the poem a WORD PUZZLE rather than a riddle. There is a subtle distinction, I think, and puzzle seems to be a more accurate term in my mind. Although I believe most of us know what F meant when he told us we didn’t need “codes, riddles, or ciphers”, perhaps that would get Andrew of our backs with his semantic rants on this topic.

      • More support for Donna’s way of thinking here – to a point. I do not think it is simple. By the way, your little puzzle is an excellent example and, IMO, he used a couple of those in the book.

        And this Colorado guy also agrees with Colokid.

        Regarding the White Knight, I as well wish he would step back and see the folly of his ways. But as long as he’s polite in his posts we should reciprocate.

        Maybe I’m just all lovey-dovey this morning.

  48. Something occurred to me in the middle of the night last night (around 3:30 am local time) that has me wondering if I can now walk up to Indulgence and pick it up.

    Trust me, this is not a boast – just wondering if I had a revelation, or it’s just a rabbit hole. I’ve got to do some more research.

    I’ll share which it is when appropriate.

    Wish me luck.

  49. All below is IMO

    For those who have missed what I said in previous posts.

    Forrest started with a list of geographical directions made up from 9 lines of text.

    Starting with the first line he converted each letter of the line into another letter. This would normally produce a ‘gobbledygook’ line of converted letters. But he worked at it to produce a meaningful phrase from the conversion.

    The way he did this was to make the converted line of text form a phrase in correct English at the expense of adjusting the line from the geographical directions into an imperfect line of English text (or partial gobbledygook if you like) .

    So where his original set of geographical directions may have said ‘YOU WILL SEE A BIG LAKE’ he ended up with ‘U C BYG LAK’.

    Normally the output of a cipher produces gobbledygook. So starting with a line of geographical directions like U C BYG LAK and converting it to an output line phrase that was correct English disguised the fact that this output phrase was the product of a cipher.

    The converted phrases could have been to do with anything. For example the output phrases from converting the first 2 lines of the geographical directions could have been:

    1 ‘Jeremy is my best witness for the defence’.

    2 ‘Seeker likes making lists’.

    However, Forrest worked extra hard to make the phrases something to do with his personal interests. For example one output phrase was ‘Chief Little Turtle’. Another was ‘Rooster Cogburn’.

    He worked even harder to get the name of a type of creature into each output phrase. This was a further disguise for the cipher. It made it look like the lines of converted text were related by this commonality rather than being simply output lines from a cipher.

    So the output phrases such as ‘Chief Little Turtle’ were used as ‘answers’. He started with these answers then looked for something to reference each one, a clue.

    Answer ‘Chief Little Turtle’ was referenced by the phrase in the poem ‘brave and in the wood’. This was a play on words as Chief Little Turtle led the Native Americans at the Battle of Fallen Timbers.

    Forrest started with the directions then he created the answers then he created the clues. He listed the clues anywhere in his poem but making sure they were in the necessary order to maintain the order of the original geographical directions.

    To solve the riddle you find the answer to each clue then convert the text of the answer back into the original geographical directions.


    The White Knight (Andrew Briggs).

    • I don’t know if this will help you at all. I was researching place names called turtle. South of Flathead Lake in western Montana is Turtle Lake. South of there is Missoula Montana were I found Rattlesnake creek.
      I still have a relative living in Polson, Mt. They have a history there. Back in the 19th century a couple of native teenage boys burned down the farm. And it was that incident that started a war with the Nez Perce and Chief Joseph.
      Anyway, that is where you can find your big lake, your turtle, and rattlesnake.

    • White, you seem to be a very bright person. What if, the part you have “all figured out” has nothing to do with your cipher, but more about your way of thinking when it comes to his hints and your “clue solving” . You have good ideas. Take a step back and look at that. Good luck!

  50. Donna M. ……….

    BigSkip here;

    In my HUMBLE opinion, you are on track…. keep replacing the pieces….it was a map originally with written instructions…..complicated by Fenn’s love of words and twisting of meanings. A puzzle indeed..
    Well put:

    It’s putting a puzzle together, piece by piece, each clue is a direction or name of a location. But since it is such a special place to him, I think it is more directional, begin here, go x far, park here, turn here, cross here, look down here, take it and leave before you are seen.
    It was there when he was a younger, and now that parks and tourist spots, ect, are more developed, this place could be a popular area, whereas before, was unknown but to a few wandering fisherman, and boys who wanted to walk in the steps of great explorers.

  51. Swwot:

    BigSkip here:

    Excellent question. I am sure that question has been discussed extensively before I joined as a beginner. But like Donna M., the possible definitions are pieces of the puzzle. Key words like “Down” and “Below” offer a variety of possibilities. If the HOB as anything to do with a creek, stream or river, then below might refer to the running of the water and below refers to downstream in any direction. But referencing the same place on a flat map might just literally mean below in a southern direction. Same with Canyon “Down”. These are old perspectives, but new to me. …I remember f saying, “the poem, a dictionary and a good map”, or something like that…food for thought in my HUMBLE opinion.

  52. Could the word “brave” be useful in narrowing the search territory ::: reading thru his books I find they mostly involve indian stuff.

    If you are brave and in
    If you are brave in dan

    We are told to LISTEN GOOD!

    : a Native American warrior
    Full Definition
    1 archaic :bravado
    2 :one who is brave; specifically :an American Indian warrior

  53. I keep thinking of F saying who the type of guy he did this treasure hunt for and I’m not sure “every redneck with a pickup truck a wife and 12 kids” could have time to cypher a poem like this. I see both sides of the argument. I would like to think F made it for the average bear,with life experiences,common sense and a little smarts. I guess time will tell.

  54. I think the poem is like a cookbook recipe in guiding you to the right mouth watering recipe for a great meal. We are all chef’s, adding different amounts of ingredients into the mix. Add this one first, & mix with that. Just a pinch of this & a half pinch of that. I like this ingredient, you may not. i will have to say Fenn’s recipe is so delicious & elusive.
    OK, I’m just hungry.
    For the right recipe.

  55. I am eating humble pie tonight. Sometimes you have to accept that your recipe wasn’t as good as the original. I think we are closer, that’s what the people inside my head told me. It’s crowded in there.

      • A fresh approach would make the recipe more palatable. Fresh ingredients are always better tasting. But I am running out of fresh ingredients. I need to stock up & select some ingredients I haven’t used before.

  56. OK, here goes a simple solve idea… 66,000 north of Sante Fe.

    Well where is Santa Fe? Where it has always been, downtown of modern SF.

    But lets not go 8.25 true north or even magnetic north lets go up north… no not straight up, why would we go that way? There is no where to hide a treasure chest unless you get balloons and anchor chains… ugh…

    Lets make it simple for a young lad in geometry class just getting introduced to the Pythagorean theory. c2 = a2 + b2 come on you all know it…

    lets suppose c2 (c squared) = 66,000 links … and a2 and b2 form a right triangle,,, right? i believe 90 degrees comes in to play often. How many links is a2 or b2?

    So yes leaving downtown SF and going up at an angle that of C2 how far on the ground do you actually distance your self from downtown SF??

    Now lets think like a navigator and immediately question the bearing of direction….
    well in searching for a hard bearing in the totc I notice 039 comes up often. So lets use this bearing from dt SF, where do you find yourself?

    • btw if 66,000 links was a solid hint leading one to a clue or all the clues, it may have been the biggest hint Mr. Fenn ever gave. The one hint that lets you place all the clues at one spot… oh and sorry this one completely bypasses the treasure of YS straight to the treasure CHEST of NM!!!

      • navigator we agree its in NM for lots of reasons but the links clue we think was only given to keep pesky searchers out of SF

  57. All below is IMO.

    For those of you who missed Goofy’s U turn, here it is:

    ‘I think the oft-quoted rules Fenn laid on us have gotten rigid & entrenched beyond FENN’S INTENTION by posters repetitions of them to BOLSTER THEIR OWN POSITIONS

    I suspect EVEN FENN WOULDN’T ACCEPT THE LIMITS OF HIS OWN WORDS AS NOW CARVED IN STONE. Sure, he said those things, but would he obey them himself? Free thinking is complicated and contradictory.

    To heck with all those RIGID AND ENTRENCHED RULES…….Let your mind flow free.

    GOT IT!!! The chest is in Utah below 5000 ft. underneath an outhouse that’s in a graveyard. How could we have missed that.’

    Goofy and Seeker have spent most of the time on this blog listing statements Forrest has made and taking each one as verbatim fact (CARVED IN STONE) to BOLSTER THEIR OWN POSITION.

    So when Forrest includes in a list the word ‘CIPHERS’ this rules out ciphers by verbatim fact.

    When he says he couldn’t get the gold using Andy Briggs’ solution this is verbatim fact.

    But when he includes in the same list the word ‘RIDDLES’ this is open to their interpretation.

    Or when he says Andy Briggs has figured out most of it, this is open to their interpretation.

    In Forrest’s statement listing what is not involved in the Chase, he has said ‘NO RIDLES’. Which part of ‘NO RIDDLES’ don’t you understand?

    Next you’ll be saying the chest is in Utah even though Forrest has specifically said it’s not in Utah

    Remember everyone’s (including your own) solution is based on the construct being a RIDDLE.

    The only evidence the naysayers have produced for the RIDDLE not involving a Lewis & Clark cipher is the list of items in Forrest’s statement. Unfortunately this list also destroys all of their own solutions and theories. Therefore by taking the whole list as verbatim fact they are admitting they are wrong.

    So this piece of evidence is useless in any argument against anything to do with the Chase. There’s no getting around it. Logic is a wonderful thing, it isn’t unidirectional.


    The White Knight (Andrew Briggs).

    • Well how can I argue with your comment Andrew.
      All I’m reading is… Hey folks don’t listen to those who repeat what fenn has told us in the past, it’s not what fenn meant to say… He didn’t mean it when he said no cipher or no riddles etc.

      Well dang! Then solving to poem should be a snap now. I just need to find all the clues gooblyglop, change that mess into readable language and walk to the chest… Piece of cake, right?

      Oh but wait… I can’t finish the solve so hey all buy my book and beat everyone else to the trove.

      IMA picking up whatcha putting down Andy…

    • White Knight, I’ll take that bet that my solution doesn’t involve anything on that list.

    • Andrew that’s not logic, that’s day dreaming……..Which is what your solution is in my opinion. If you want to ignore what Fenn has said that’s fine go ahead.

      There are many excellent comments here that use real logic to prove you are grabbing at straws on many levels with this creation of yours. If you can hustle the folks in the UK and make a few bucks good for you.

      I appreciate you stating IMO when talking about your solution, and I appreciate keeping things civil while strongly disagreeing……

      Where we are at is we simply have different opinions. We’ve beaten this horse into a mud puddle…….If your method is correct it will produce the chest, end of the story. So get cracking, finish your solution and go get the chest.

      • Well said Goofy….. So the White Knight has a muddy philosophy and a muddy horse. No wonder I can’t understand the logic. And he is now almost camouflaged. ImO

        • Maybe Forrest rolled the chest around in the mud puddle to camouflage it. If you are looking for a bright shinny bronze chest, better look again. Its been out in the weather for 5 years and probably is tarnished or has algae growing on it if is near water. Give it some thought when you are searching, lots of ways to hide a chest without burying it. IMO of course.

          • Yes, I agree. One way or another the chest cannot avoid misture, heck there may even be plants growing on it by now & you would walk right by it.

          • So what was the point of bringing up White Knight’s Solve? It appears that it was a pre-determinted conversation. FF knew right away what was happening. After seeing thousands of different solves FF decided that Briggs was on the right track while also stating that he didnt understand his solve (paraphrasing). In my best judgement for opinions, this means that everything FF says is double meaning. And that is why everyone is confused. So its not Briggs’ solve we need to look into, it Briggs himself or something that surrounds what we know about Briggs. That is the only indirect way to look at what fenn is saying. If you look at Fenn’s words as verbatim and straight forward, then Briggs is a wash, and there is no reason to talk about him over the air. Again, As I have been saying. Everything is right in front of you.

          • Hammer,
            Here is how I view f’s two statements with my attempt to explain:
            1: solve on the right track
            2: solve not likely to lead to the chest.
            *application of the solve was incorrect

            Adding another yes/no item
            1: No ciphers required
            2: Decipher the poem
            * no cipher needed to decipher the poem

            Imo – Folks this is all part of my many ideas that have not yet panned out….

          • I hear youonthat.Never knowwhat itlookslikenow. Maybelikeadarkrockintwofeet of grass. ImO

      • Goofy,

        I both agree and disagree with portions of what you said.

        I agree that we have beaten this into the ground and there is no way to sway one side or the other.

        I disagree that what Andy said isn’t logical; it is. If we take the list of what is not needed (ciphers, riddles, head pressures, etc.), and we agree that any one single item in that list as truth, then we must agree that the rest of the list is true as well.

        IMO, of course.

        Scott W

        • Well Scott there’s some truth to what you say…..Once someone adopts an illogical thought, everything after that is logical to them. For that matter many folks think it’s illogical to even be looking for the chest.

          Apparently logic is in the eye of the beholder.

    • White Knight,
      I haven’t read all of your partial solution, but have seen examples on the blog and realized that the method used helps support by way of hints towards a solution. In my newest solution, I realized that the answers in some of your translations support my solution. They are not dependent on it. I’m not using ciphers or any other method that FF said wouldn’t solve the poem, but some of the disclosed translations from your partial solution help support my solution. Until I apply my solution with feet on the ground, I won’t know if it leads me to Indulgence. Rose

      • yeh, I finally did some rough geometry measuring and saw it went too far, but thanks. Still, an intriguing line of interest to me though.
        Does plane geometry work on misshapen 3-d globes?… guess I was close enough for gummint work.

  58. IMO I believe forrest looks at his poem as a puzzle not a riddle, if you look up puzzle the first thing that comes up in “a toy” forrest wrote a chapter an one of his books where he made toys and sold them to his class mates. He was so clever at it he could do it right under his teachers nose with out her noticing, he does seem to have something for toys.

      • I really don’t think cyphers are involved with the solution but what the heck entertain yourself. I’m thinking classic pirate treasure hunt Blackbeard Capt. Hook stuff.

        • I agree. The tool I linked to is so folk can rule it out for themselves without having to spend ages with a pen and paper.
          Plus it’s mildly amusing to chain a bunch of ciphers together and see what gobbledygook comes out lol.

          Happy huntin all 🙂

  59. Andrew,

    What do you hope to achieve with all the chest thumping, supplications, and pleading?

    Sounds like you’re trying to convince yourself of the validity of your method more than you are trying to convince us.

    If books sales are slumping take out an advert in the Sun on page 2.

    • Good question Colokid, I hope Andrew answers your question. It is an interesting solution but it takes tremendous leaps to follow it.
      Chief Little Turtle from brave and in the wood? It is more in line with wild guesses and making tenuous connections than “logic” in my view. So, White Knight or Andrew, why so strident about your theory and why do you care that others are not convinced?

    • Colokid et al,

      Whitenight may be wrong as we all may be wrong.

      But I question this, how many are doing the chest thumping? Chest thumping against a solve is just as noisy as chest thumping for a solve. And can also be construed as an effort to convince our own solve.

      I am glad healthy discussions are allowed here and that we are pretty well behaved and if not, goofy hits the button.

      All imo and all form an occasional chest thumper 🙂

      • ukenit everyone IOHM has chest thump some but there are limits.
        know what you know and believe in your solve. it doesn’t matter what other think about it. that is part of the confidence we must have in our solves and ourselves. test your solve and keep looking for answers that support your ideas. help others when you can with answers to their solves.

    • Colokid,

      I don’t see it as chest thumping. I see it as frustration. Frustration that no one can get what he is trying to say.

      We’ve all been there before (not chase related) where we just can’t get someone else to understand why we hold a certain position, right or wrong.

      Scott W

  60. IMO, I could be wrong, but what does a 20, 30, 40, 50, etc. Percent solve yield. 0 times anything is still zero. I don’t know of White’s solve, but the chase is still on and Indulgence is still there for the taking. Perhaps we all need to go back and read the Poem again. Maybe Slam the door and start all over. F is a master of words and illusions at such.

    • I agree ded, How would you know you got a certain percent of the solve? It’s either 100% OR NOTHING! I think some of my solves from the clues may be correct, but realistically if I do not find the chest, there is no way of confirming any percentage except for the big goose egg.

      • My thoughts exactly. If I found the chest tomorrow , I would not write a book about it. It is the Thrill of the whole quest, not to be capitalized upon through money, fame, wealth, book sales. Personal satisfaction is all I need. F has taught me so much on this journey, that I realize now that I, like most, do not put forth 100 percent most times. Why just sustain, and not prevail? I now have realized that I can do anything I put my mind to, and be whatever I want to be. IMO

      • No and I may have, as well as yourself, the mental capacity to crack it. My stance is that without Indulgence, ya didn’t solve the Poem. I see myself as a modern day Sherlock Holmes working on a civil suit. 🙂 Pro Bono of course! IMO

      • I would argue the exact opposite. That Mr. Briggs will not find this because he will over complicate the search. Remember, it was designed for a Texas redneck with a pickup and bedroll. I got both, and live dang close to Texas.

      • @Marcella re: White Night a.k.a. Andrew Briggs Wiki bio, interesting old chap to say the least, lol! Thanks for the link, he has a private pilots license as well….I think he is too smart for this, another searcher that hears hoof sounds and thinks zebras instead of mustangs…IMO

      • I googled the white knight after the radio interview.I was curious after the interviewer said he’s not your average crackpot or something to that effect.A highly intelligent guy with great accomplishments is what I found.His poem solving method is really cool.The lewis and clark cipher is really cool stuff to read about I don’t care who you are.The answers to the clues is where he lost me.

      • Thanks for the link Marcella,
        Hmmm, who would have thought Whitenight and I have something in common beside the chase. He enjoys Christian Philosophy and Science. Cheers Andrew!

  61. Spallies

    That’s Exactly what I meant. 🙂 how funny I need to check the spelling before I type something. Ha ha ha . 🙂 but you knew Exactly what I was saying 🙂 thank u

  62. Happy hunting all – I’m officially out. I’ve had my fun and realize the winner will have a grand stroke of luck. I have won a few lotteries in my days but I just can’t keep play this one. Work and other obligations of life are calling my name. Peace~

    • It isn’t going to be a Grand Stroke of Luck, the person who finds it is going to have to be Very Wise.

    • Sally, You have to do whats best for yourself, family members & other obligations. Don’t be discouraged, you did your best & didn’t find the chest but life still goes on.

      • Thank you Jake that’s right. The trips were an adventure, lots to see and hear. On one trip to Yellowstone my sister and I both agreed the clues have to be very specific in order to find something that small.

      • It has been an Amazing chase thus far, and who knows maybe her schedule will open up and she will be back in next season…. as this season is ever drawing nigh.

      • Thank you Amy your a real trooper. Have you decided on sharing your solve or is there a little more gas left in your tank 🙂

        • Sally.
          I still have gas in my tank. I will search again next summer. Then I will release my solve. I keep saying that. 🙂

    • sally m. check in now again have a good life. and where did you go to get the vaccine to walk away lol

  63. Welcome, ded, and sorry to see you go sally.
    《IMO》 I’ve applied 5 of my BEST solves, that fit 50 places. I covered those areas in a 49 day adventure! And even managed to search a few spots for a good friendE.
    The clues can be solved to fit so many places, I really don’t see ANYONE finding it for some time. F was excited that a few came close, and got a few of the clues right. That, I see, was chance. They never knew they were close, so can’t return for a second chance. And F won’t tell you.
    One was so close, F relied to her when she asked who was closer, her or Dal, “You’d faint if I told you!”. That person made almost 100 searches, so had NO IDEA where she made a wrong turn.
    I guess I’m trying to say, that the poem is written in such a “blank sheet of paper” form, anyone can feel sure their solve is right. There are prob thousands out there!
    I think all solves are to be respected, if they use F’s perimeters he established in the beginning.
    And as far as a “jobless redneck in a truck with 12 kids” finding it, just tells me to think logical and not get too technical with the solves.
    “I welcome the one who is watching us, the Guardian of the far-away. The lines you make with your arms, when you pray to the new sun, stretching them out, represent the symbol of the Rainbow, the bow of dreamers.” Taos words of wisdom.
    Be safe all.
    ¥Peace ¥

    • Thank you Donna for the warm welcome. I appreciate that, and in turn will offer some guidance to you. Sit down and have a glass of wine, a beer, nice stiff drink… whatever suits your fancy. Get the poem out and reread it, keeping in mind f states a sure starting point. It is Not blatantly obvious, encrypted somewhat. Happy Hunting all… and watch out fur bears! 🙂

      • Thanks, Ded. The poem is memorized and I read it daily, just to see the print. My TOTC AND TFTW are worn out! I’m ordering two new ones! I have gone back to the basics so many times…reread and watched everything.
        This winter, is a time to contimplate and fall into a brown study, maybe the ideas will flow again. It’s been 4 long years! Have fun! ~Donna~

        • I am a redneck with a pickup with 296, 966 miles on it and 4 months of sleepless nights and boots on the ground trying to solve this case!!! I feel ya.

          • Another thing I do daily, is go to YouTube and listen to Mr. F read his poem, several times, as I think. I love his soothing voice, and how he puts certain emphasis on each word.
            I’m a displaced Choctah/Cerokee/Irish native Texan living in KC,MO! Lol!

    • Wow Donna – 49 days searching! I’d love to hear about your adventures if you care to share anything. I think many of us are going to be rereading the poem and books over the winter and rethinking our solutions to the puzzle.

      • Cj, I kept a daily journal of every road, Nook and cranny I explored. Some of those places I may revisit next year, so don’t like to give them away. I can say, I visited Mt/Wy, several Clovis sites and dozens of waterfalls! When (or if) I find the treasure, I will disclose my journey.
        I could tell of a search spot where I failed and one of y’all ck it and find the chest!
        I did alot of networking at each area, bought alot of fishermen alot of beer and froze my butt off, ALOT! BUT NO TREASURE!
        But, thank you for your interest.
        (In the old Nine Clues blog, I was commenting and giving some details of my escapades as they happened.)
        ¥Peace ¥

        • Here in West Yellowstone now, Cody was not the place. Searched Colter’s Hell, Spirit Mountain, which is connected to Colter’s hell. Base of Rattlesnake Mountain where it blends with Colter’s Hell. Begin it where warm waters halt. when I decided it was time to leave I’d back-up a couple of feet downstream where the water was cold. That gave me instant incentive to climb out….
          Donna, If your still in the area & still up for the chase & of course would like to have a Rattle Snake Brew with me, please chime in.

          • Thanks, Jake. I’m home for now. Will hit the chase next June, and try to brush up on my pinyon nut collecting techniques.

          • Donna M, The last time we harvested Pinons, we simply spread blankets on the ground, got up into the tree and shook the living daylights out of it. Then we simply carefully picked up the blankets and funnelled the nuts into a box that was taped along the bottome so they wouldn’t fall out. Got back home and then roasted them in the oven, two cookie sheets at a time. mmmmmm

        • donna m great idea about listening to fenn read poem that is a wonderful fantastic helpful i dont have the words. WOW what an idea. i notice hubby read poem one way out loud and me another but never thought about hear Mr. F read it. WOW WOW WOW

        • I read the stories you posted and it sure sounded like you had a great time, despite the frozen butt! Good for you to keep a journal and, even if you didn’t find the treasure, you have some great memories of your adventures. Good luck with your futures searches!

  64. Just wanted to point out that there is less than a week to get your “WORST ADVICE” contest entry in. Big winner gets a Forrest Fenn SIGNED and INSCRIBED copy of the beautiful Leon Gaspard book. ..that book sells for $140…nice prize..
    2nd and 3rd prizes are 500 year old potshards from Forrest’s San Lazaro Pueblo. These are very unique items…you’re not allowed to collect these on public lands..

    Anyone can is restricted to those who have commented on the entries page..
    So get your comment posted and get your entry submitted:

    • I nominate using ciphers\cyphers as worst advice. lol

      Feel free to click my name to chain as many Lewis & Clark and Caesar ciphers together you please. In my trials no useful output is ever achieved.

      Happy huntin all 🙂

      • I vote for roping a buffalo as worse advice! From the sounds of it you can ruin your shoes get your feet wet and cold and lose the front axle to your car plus the buffalo didn’t have such a happy ending.

  65. The last time my son and I searched Yellowstone, we ran into a little car trouble. The brakes were mush, went straight to the floor …of course this all happened on a slight incline. He said push the button and pull I said “what button” there was no button on the E-brake …needless to say we got the car stopped. Start it where warm waters halt, I think he’s referring to your car.

  66. Donna M.

    BigSkip here:

    I hope you will be re-energized and motivated to stay in the Chase. I previously commented on one of your blogs regarding your approach to the solve. We think the same and it will be the successfully approach. However, thinking about another comment regarding the TC: it has been hidden for five years now (as I recall) and it may be more difficult to spot unless f placed it in a very conspicuous location (looking “down”) Mother Nature and the elements, wind, dirt, leaves, branches, mud, vegetation, etc. and the color aging of the bronze may make it more difficult to spot. So searches are going to be very vigilant in their search. Many may have gone right by it. Including Donna M.?

    • Bigskip, thanks for the vote of confidence, and you’re sage advice. I don’t think I’d want to know how close I was this season, I wouldn’t fainr, I’d have a heart attack.

      I guess I need to email f and report in on my search spots. He won’t respond with anything but a “good luck”. But, I figure I owe him an adventure or two, just to keep him on the edge of his seat!

  67. Preparing for crow dinner this Sunday evening. I chose a BBQ option with fruits (cranberries) and nuts (piñon and pignoli). Yum!

        • I am not worried about it. It seems the higher power Goofy or Dal like to show their badge a lot. Thinking it was enough the first time. I WAS UNABLE TO POST A WEEK AGO. I went in and made a new email and here I am. If Kenny offended anyone I am sorrrry…. and out!

      • Absolutely Au Jus to the mix for moisture as well as flavor. Crow is not so bad – kind of like having lemons and end up making lemonade. I am done and the search is over for me. The “now what” comes to mind. I have not decided about my solve and what to do with it. While it has been fun; it has been disappointing not to get to see the box named Indulgence. I enjoyed most of the blog discussions and will probably remain more in a lurking mode for a while. It was a “thrill” only with no opportunity for the bounty. 🙁 Life goes on and my solve will mean something someday 🙂
        Have fun all!

    • I don’t like crow therefore I have to solve the nine clues. How’d you like how I did that SL and Ded by mentioning the nine clues I’ve stayed on topic. When you sign off with IMO just write nine clues in there instead.

      • If the mention of nine clues could bring back the posts between dedicated2it and me; i would consider the option you’ve offered, Cat cut.

        For some reason; I unfortunately don’t think that is going to happen.


  68. On second thought, this you will never display.
    Forgive me as I go with it, Anyway.   Really going to tell us what, and where we may say?
    I suspect that I don’t belong here anyway.
    Dal has seen this quest from the start, and still he choses to Interfere with my art.
    The art In nature I can explore, the things that I have come to adore.
    Not about what I can gain, but merely what my mind can’t refrain.
    Not about a chest of gold, but more a quest only for the Bold.
    Famous people come and go, most genuine to self is all I know.

    • dedicated2it you asked: “Really going to tell us what, and where we may say?”

      Short answer; yes. Folks subscribe to the nine clues post so they can discuss the nine clues…..I try to cut folks some slack but then some take advantage of it and start posting everything but about the nine clues.

      There are other pages to discuss other topics like Odds n Ends and looking for a partner etc.

      • Goofy. I have watched this site for years and years, and I really don’t want to be a jerk, but it is disappointing to see how many people you have ostracized from being a part of this blog. It is about the Nine Clues, but the thrill is in the chase and the experiences and conversations that come with it. The thrill is in the things that happen during the chase that make us better people, better friends, and better searchers.

        Keep on keeping on because you are the sheriff in town and we are all the townspeople, but keep in mind the reason for the chase.

        To keep this about the nine clues.

        Also I think warm waters halt is glacial melt water. There is a Glacial Lake – Colorado with a place called Nederland – Colorado below that, that used to be called Brown’s Crossing.

        Anybody used that as a solve?

        • Nate please dont make goofy the bad guy. there are from what we understand people who complain about bloggers who dont stay on clues.

  69. Thank you for your kind thoughts and positive contributions, dedicated2it.

    I think that I understand now.

  70. Forrest will be signing books at Collected Works Bookstore in Santa Fe tomorrow (Sunday, October 4th) at 3pm. Rumor is that Cynthia, Desertphile and Sacha will be there. If you go, you can get a book signed and talk to Sacha about your TOTC refrigerator magnet idea and talk to Desertphile about cowboyin and find out from Cynthia where she gets those cool green sunglasses.

    • Oh boy, maybe I’ll bring a bunch of bananas……..I realize that joke probably won’t make much sense right now but I couldn’t resist.

  71. Goofy and I just straightened up the “Forrest Shares” area. Now, when you click on his Scrapbooks or Aberrations or Treasures Bold or Speed Bumps…you’ll get a nice clean, clickable menu with all the posts listed chronologically…

    This should make it childsplay too get to any of the over 150 stories Forrest has written on this blog.

    • You know what would be nice if you could turn the Scrapbook into a actual book? Now I would buy that! It would help people a little easier to research and besides would make a nice edition to everyone’s collection

    • Thanks Dal and Goofy! I sometimes have to go back and read things Forrest has shared with us, especially when someone tries to quote something Forrest is supposed to have said/written and it just doesn’t sound correct.

    • Dal & Goofy, I can imagine what a huge organizational and programming task that was…THANK YOU!

      Wish I lived closer to buy you guys dinner now and then for all you do. We know where Dal hangs his hiking gear. But for all I know Goofy might be my next door neighbor. Ha!

  72. hi folks
    i have had a tummy bug for several days. fever gone but it will be several more days before i am back to old self. we dont think i will be travel ready by the time we are suppose to go back to search area so we are done for the year. RATS!!!!!!!!!!! we also are snug on money and of course our dryer has decide to die and not dry. then we realized hubby will not get paid for three weeks one week at Thanksgiving and two at Christmas because he works for a school dist. so we need to save as much money as we can. taking a trip now we feel would be irresponsible. if the TC is there and we are meant to find it it will be there next year .
    we wish those who are able to get in a search or two this season good luck, safe trips, have fun, and please find TC. LOL

    p.s. after four days of no coffee i am getting homicidal LOL hopefully in morning my tummy will like coffee for the sake of hubby and pets.

    • Ok, Goofy, Wild birder is in the parameters of “nine clues”!
      She Def had the flu where the “warm waters halted”, and flushed it “in the canyon down”, flowing into the local cistern where it wasn’t “Too Far To walk”, and no explanation needed for “HOB”!
      I’m sure her house was “no place for the meek” and felt like the “end was ever drawing nigh”. She is Def “up the creek”, with her drier and facing a budget crunch of “heavy loads and water high”!
      Dont know if She will be too “wise” in the morning, finding the “blaze” of coffee hitting her tummy, but when she “looks quickly down” at her filled mug, her family will feel like they struck gold!.
      ~Sorry, Goofy, I see your finger quivering over the ‘nuke button’. ~
      Get well, Wildbirder and keep studying those 9 clues this winter!

      • HA!…..You know me well Miss Donna. And that was a creative save. I should still nuke both of you.

        So let’s use this as a teaching moment; this is exactly what not to post in the nine clues. If you just have to post this Facebook stuff here for some reason at the very least put it in Odds n Ends……

        You’ve been warned Wildbird……AGAIN! (Hope you get to feeling better)

  73. Ok, I just watched F’s interview AGAIN, on youtube, (SBS DATELINE), i love watching Dal’s explaination of the clues, and he was asked if there were any other clues he’d like to give. F said, “Yes, the treasure is hidden below 15,000 feet.”
    So, now, it’s between 500 ft and 15,000 ft, per F. (?) And not 10,200 ft?
    He also stated, “I’d have to look it up, (about the word ‘North’), but to me, North is anything above 270 deg and 90 deg.”
    And (thanks to Dal for this info), F said the ‘BLAZE’ could be a WHITE rock, WHITE marking on a horses face…he stated “white” on all his examples! Dal stated, “that’s why people think it’s behind a waterfall, it’s white.” MY number one guess, would be a petroglyph.
    IMO, it CAN be BESIDE a waterfall, (at the end of his rainbow), getting misted…F=”I know it’s wet.”
    The white blaze could also be a ray of sunlight, shining on the treasure, near late afternoon, as it shines thru a needle eye feature in the rocks! I’ve seen that a dozen times. That is a blaze that will be around a 1000 years, unless the mountain falls or the sun blows up.
    Ive prob said too much. Just my 2 cents worth!
    ¥Peace ¥

  74. Earlier this week I shared that I awoke in the night and was uncertain if what woke me up was a revelation or just a crazy wild hare brained idea. Since that time I have been re-working the poem/puzzle and have come to a conclusion (for myself, anyways). Here’s my sage advice (stealing from an older American Express tag line) “Don’t leave home without it.” The “it” in this instance is a complete solve.

    I must confess that as little as a week ago I was making plans for doing some searching next summer – the whole “normal bit” by signing up for vacation time off of work, etc. But part of that revelation that has really taken root in my being is Forrest’s comment about playing canasta – don’t step out the door on a hunch.

    And I am now resolved that I will not leave home without a complete solve. What this means for me is this, until I am satisfied in my own mind that I can simply walk out my door, hop in my vehicle and drive to the place to start walking into the woods to pick up Indulgence, I’m staying put. IMO, I will save lots of money and heartache all around. Call me crazy or lazy, but I am only going on one trip in my quest for the treasure and that is to pick it up.

    Many have gone into the wood on a hunch, or an incomplete solve, and are having a blast doing so – I envy them. But the realities of life, that is work and family, make this something I cannot afford to do at this point in my life. So I am stepping back for now. I’ll be lurking and posting on occasion – you won’t be getting rid of me that easily – but for a season or more I’ll not be around here as much.

    Again, IMO, Forrest says there are 9 clues in the poem and if you solve the 9 clues, one can go confidently to the resting spot of his treasure. This statement he makes looks deceptively easy and right now, I don’t have the time to put into it that it needs and deserves. I am in no hurry, as I am pretty confident that nobody is going to find Indulgence by accident.

    Good luck to all and be safe out there!

    • swwot, that’s pretty much how I feel too. No need for me to waste time and money looking for the treasure if I don’t have a good logical solve that fits the poem well.

      • Yep I agree as well. I think we must take Forrest statement “You will move with confidence” as that. Not a hunch or hope.

        So why is it that ,” It won’t be stumbled upon”. What is keeping folks from walking,riding,boating,flying or whatever mode of transportation to stumble upon it? Is it behind locked gates? We all know that won’t keep a lot out who think it’s there. Still has to be where an 80 year old guy(however spry) could go. Where could it be in the outdoors someone couldn’t happen on it,and is so dear a place to him? Is it in the outdoors? Man this is deeeeep!! My brain needs a rest.

        • Swwot and others, I am beginning to understand this line of thought. I am sitting at home (my home, not Brown’s home) after treasure hunting, empty-handed. I believe that I was at clue 7, 8, or 9 and did not recognize the resting place of Indulgence. Before I dig into a huge helping of crow, I think I will indulge in dessert first. Then, a after my fill of dessert, if I am still hungry, I shall delve into the crow. Slurbs treasure hunter or… Or as I would put it Slurbs, treasure hunter, had my treasure focus was taken away by a couple of friendly hikers named Martha and Courtney. They were easy to look at and a pleasure to talk to. After a while, I didn’t know wether I was smiling from being out treasure hunting or from being in such good looking company. They are such nice outdoorsy types that they even packed out what others packed in! What great stewards of the land… More smiles! I hope I get to meet up with them again some day. Did it snow on the way back down? That must have been nature’s way of telling me that this may be the last Chase of the season. My wife was with me the whole time and that made for a great trip. We didn’t come home empty handed, we found some lost potatoes. Hey, I just realized, that might go good with the crow!

        • Mr Clean, yes it is deep! My take on the statement that “no one will stumble onto it” indicates that it is a place that most people would not go, or that it is “hidden” so that you will have to look under or into something. My personal belief is that it is hidden under a juniper bush. In the first chapter of TFTW he talks about being afraid of the juniper bushes next to the porch where he played as a young child. His dad told him there were dragons, black widow spiders and scorpions in them. Brave in the wood would back up this thought. Most people would not be looking under bushes unless they were “looking” for something.

        • Mrclean,

          Well, The stanza specifically tells us that if we look down our quest to cease (fail). BUT if we don’t look down, we should hurry up, take the chest and leave.

          So – MO the chest is above ground (foot) level.

          Therefore, unless you are following the instructions, you will never find it looking at your feet.

          Scott W

          • Scott, do you have an e-mail you don’t mind sharing? I have something that may interest you… you like names and i’m not big on them… but this information is curious still.

    • Makes perfect sense. But I do envy those guys that get to go out tramping/camping enjoying the wonders and beauties of nature’s far-far aways.

      • P.S. and thank you for the re-org Goofy and Dal. Nice improvement. You guys deserve a big part of anybody’s find.

    • I disagree about leaving with a full solve even tho I’ve done that. My next plan of attack will be to go to all of the places that fit clue1 in that area so I can elimante more places that way or comfirm a place that way. A big problem i see with a searcher is they get stuck on one place and have blinders on about other places.

      • Howdy Count,

        Just to be clear, I’m not leaving altogether. For myself, I just don’t have the time available to dedicate to this endeavor. I’ll pick at it and dabble on occassion, but for now, I’m simply pulling back. The way I see it is that I’ve little to lose in taking some of the “hurry-up” out of my life. I’m going to sit back, take a long contemplative look at what I know and what I’ve been able to glean from the poem so far and re-formulate a winning solve.

        • swwot we are going to do that two i will continue to read blog and we have a good solve but i have work we are going to do to either add to our solve and look for other solves. we are not going in oct to search our area.

  75. My brain needs a huge rest. So boots on the ground next week. I hope the solve I have is complete. Im in the camp that the blaze is something found once the other clues are followed. Agree/ disagree?

    Each trip we take is a vacation. Had enough of So Cal and Mexico.

    • I agree. I think you have to be led to the blaze by the previous clues.

      I’m kind of hung up on “water high”. It doesn’t feel obvious to me at all.

    • Well lets reiterate, the best search tools are: TTOTC,google earth and a good map. If you have the poem solved you will know where to go. Could be the blaze is small and does mark where you will see the chest,or not. Won’t know till you get there. Maybe google earth shows the blaze? A good map shows a route in? Probably all been said before I’m sure.

      With all the minds working together here do you suppose the solve is within these pages?….Unknowingly solving a clue here and there.

  76. I may be wrong but I have seen my discussion about the New Mexico tourist video that Forrest did, I think last year. In the video he mentions pinion trees/nuts. I found this really interesting. He didn’t call them pine trees/nuts, he called them pinion. I did a quick google search and saw that “pinion” trees/nuts grow in regions of New Mexico. Could this have been a big hint?

    • Gregorious, actually, Pinyon trees can be found in New Mexico, Colorado AND a small section of S.W. WY.
      That “big hint” just became bigger with all that territory!

      • What he said was I smell pine needles or pinyon nuts. That leaves the door open for all four states.

  77. OK, this is gonna be hard but I’m saying it anyway. I think I’ve slipped into an understanding of the poem’s word sense. This is my interpretation of stanza five:

    1 . “Why is it….” assume for now this means Wyoming.
    2. (I’ll come back to it.)
    3. “The answers I already know” = I am at an entrance. I don’t need the brochures at the guard gate or the trail maps posted on that bulletin board. I’ve been here before, I know where I am going.
    4. I’ve done it Tired and now I am weak…. I drove here, parked, now I’m on foot.

    OK, what’s #2, … what’s between Wyoming and I’m parked? “Leave my trove for all to seek” must be the identity of the hunting ground in Wyoming. Perhaps its a name or geographic description of that place, a name like Lost Cache or Poudre or Finders-Keepers. I can’t interpret this, but I’ll bet someone who lives in the area and knows well the local names and geography and has good word-sense, will have an advantage over the map scrutinizers.

    If you think it is not in Wyoming, substitute the word ‘where’ for Why. ‘Where’ always seemed awkward to me up there in stanza one.

    And here, I am point to the rotting stinking IMO albatross hanging on my chest just in case anyone missed it.

    • There seems to be a lot going on in stanza one, unless you are certain where means a place, and not a place in time. As I have gone alone in there, sound like an action of recent. Yet it could be an action of decades or even more. I can keep my secret where, can mean just the hide/chest, but could also be interpret as where in that time. Could the hint of new and old mean the same… And now, begin it, is more like a starting point of time and WWWH relates to that starting place in time… and singles out the correct location.

      • —– We’re always on different tracks, Seeker. I’m walking thru the poem starting at stanza 5. I’ve got a toe into stanza 6 but haven’t got to stanza one yet. My tight-lipped companion is describing what’s to happen. He’s told me we have entered the hunting ground. Haven’t got it’s name yet, but I feel its gettable if I listen good. I have to learn the moods and language of my companion so I can follow his instructions because he is going to leave me after stanza one. Worse, I am a slow learner.

        If I were writing a children’s story, young boys would be preparing for their coming-of-age ritual. Their mentor would be telling them about signs and such. They would be led to the ritual place and left, each to find the WWH and on to make the kill alone. The first shall be rewarded by the chief, and if he’s also best, he may inherit Chief’s moccasins.

        Too much imagination, not enuf logic?

        • to anyone we are searching for the exact date for the first time Mr. Fenn said someone was 200 or 500 ft from TC. we keep finding links that refer to him saying the quote but not when it was first said. come someone help us out please.

        • I wouldn’t say different tracks as much as I don’t see the poem as a single word definition, such as warm meaning temperature only. Stanza 5 with the question and answers has been interesting to talk about in the past as the start of how to see/read the poem.
          I have said it may possibly refer to the medicine wheel and the journey described the places one takes. The wheel does hold a lot of the poem if you consider warm and cold as seasons, Brown being an animal, the beaver, bear, fox, etc. Directional N,S,E,W. Spiritual, physical, mental, emotional. Colors, Youth, elder, parent, child, the elements, grass, tree, tobacco, sage…and more.

          How do you see the answers leading you in your start or what hear me all… may mean? I’m not really big on the idea “tired” means drive or drove there, and weak meaning on foot. But Why as WY could work. although there are medicine wheels in all the remaining states.

          • Well I’ve got some satisfying thoughts on the ‘hear me all” line, but not ready to reveal them yet. Herma opened it up to boundary, but that’s barely incidental to my conclusion now.
            If you don’t feel the drive/walk interpretation for tired and weak, have you got one that satisfies you more? No need to tell it.

          • OS2,

            I as well have thoughts on the hear me all line. I posted the examples here over time, but no one ever takes me seriously.

            Scott W

          • I never dismiss your serious words Q1, I missed it, can you tell me where to find it, or repost it? Thanks.

        • OS2,

          I’m not only a different page, I seem to drift from one page to another. However, I am almost convinced that the poem starts with Stanza six.

          I believe this because there appears to be specific instruction on how we should read, or listen, to the poem.

          I also wonder why Forrest tells us to read the poem over and over. To me it seems possible hat the poem is circular; much like the periodic table is.

          I have also looked at circular clues which lead (short “e”) me to the periodic table, but nothing has really panned out.

          Scott W

          • Q, You are still messing with poem I see. I think the poem is a structure built one step at a time from beginning to end by design, sometimes putting one foot down & stepping on it. I think the poem is layered.
            I agree with you on a circular solution?

          • Q1… Yes, I’m all over the board as well, several disjointed ideas… some from the book, some from the poem.

            Been thinking again about the Philly story… maybe it implies under a different left thumb. Was it you that mentioned Tribasin a while ago?

            I speaks in stanza 5-6-1 … but is gone from 2-3-4, kinda think this links them together for some purpose.

            Did you know there are over 200 first names that mean brave in some sense?

            Thoughts anyone?

          • I have no idea how the periodic table is circular, i think of the poem more as a paddle wheel up your creek.

          • Jake,
            You said; I think the poem is a structure built one step at a time from beginning to end by design, sometimes putting one foot down & stepping on it. I think the poem is layered.

            How do you use the entire poem to do just that… stepping?

          • I think the poem is structured in a way where you have start at stanza 1 & not make stanza 6 a beginning point. Don’t mess with Fenn’s poem! Each line in his poem has been placed there for reasons of rhyming & direct location of TC.

          • OS2 – Hard for me to explain the circular periodic table, but you can actually take a cardboard, rectangular table and make it into a cylinder and it works with the electrons. Google it and there are some images that explain it.

            Jake –

            The example I gave does not mess with the poem if you take Seeker’s approach. Every clue zeros in on one location.

            Below is an example of such a riddle. It doesn’t matter what order you solve the clues. However, if you mess with the poem you will never solve it.

            The answer will still be one unique , singular object.


            By the way, I am struggling to get my mind to think this way.

            I have to agree with Seeker that this approach makes the most sense when we are considering the average Joe being able to solve the poem.

            Scott W

          • q1,
            If this solution is any indication of the difficulties ahead…… well color me toast. But I will keep on keeping on while I can.

          • Scott, the whale riddle is different. Each line gives a different aspect of the solution.

            Forrest’s poem is like a map with different way points along the way. These must be arrived at in a specific sequence. We have been told it is a waste of our time to first attempt to locate the blaze.

            All of this is of course in MHO.

          • Specialklr,

            I am saying that one could look at Fenn’s poem in the same way as the whale poem.

            It could be constructed in such a way that , as Seeker has been preaching, it is not a linear list of directions.

            Scott W

          • Q1, Well, I had thought about triangulation before, but not quite as single focused as the whale riddle. Thanks for that example. And there is always the possibility that it both… we may be paddling up gestalt creek.

          • Hi Scott/Specialklr,

            Specialklr wrote: “Scott, the whale riddle is different. Each line gives a different aspect of the solution.”

            Yes, but it is also a wanting analogy because it requires special knowledge (the Bible) to solve it. If you’ve never read the Bible, you have no hope of solving the riddle because the answer is entirely dependent on that source material, and is not derivable from the riddle itself, or other general knowledge.

            So I certainly *hope* Fenn’s poem is self-contained, and not drawing on another text for secret knowledge.

            Specialklr continues: “Forrest’s poem is like a map with different way points along the way. These must be arrived at in a specific sequence. We have been told it is a waste of our time to first attempt to locate the blaze.”

            In large part, I agree. But because the poem’s directions are exceedingly and deliberately vague, they cannot be followed correctly without proper association. Beating a dead horse here, but WWWH is not a unique starting point, so it cannot be considered an actionable waypoint without context. I think the 9 clues must work in concert with one another for any of them to be usable. Maybe not all 9 simultaneously, but I’m betting you’ll need 3 or 4 working together before you’ve got a starting point.

          • Hi Scott and Specialklr,

            Specialklr wrote: “Scott, the whale riddle is different. Each line gives a different aspect of the solution.”

            Yes, but it is also a wanting analogy because it requires special knowledge to solve it. If you’ve never read the Bible, you have no hope of solving the riddle because the answer is entirely dependent on that source material, and is not derivable from the riddle itself, nor other general knowledge.

            So I certainly *hope* Fenn’s poem is self-contained (other than a good map), and not drawing on another text for secret knowledge.

            Specialklr continues: “Forrest’s poem is like a map with different way points along the way. These must be arrived at in a specific sequence. We have been told it is a waste of our time to first attempt to locate the blaze.”

            In large part, I agree. But because the poem’s directions are exceedingly and deliberately vague, they cannot be followed correctly without proper association. Beating a dead horse here, but WWWH is not a unique starting point, so it cannot be considered an actionable waypoint without context.

            I think the 9 clues must work in concert with one another for any of them to be usable. Maybe not all 9 simultaneously, but I’m betting you’ll need the first 3 or 4 working together before you can establish a good starting point.

          • Zaphod, I’ve followed your posts closely. You seem to be a very astute searcher. I thought you might see the correct approach back when you spoke in detail of the first paragraph. You proceeded right passed it. I couldn’t see why. It is my observation and opinion that if we see the correct use of the first paragraph we can proceed to the correct WWWH. Since there are 100’s of WWWH, we need something besides the poem to give us the understanding we need (ie. which state, specific starting point, etc.)

            I would not feel bad if no one reads this entry. It is all just my opinion.

            And, I don’t have the TC. 🙂

          • Zap, I think Scott’s example was a simply a way of reading the poem other than line by line, and step by step.
            The subject matter is not important as much as, the over all viewing and usage of how to read the poem.

            If we use the riddle { not saying the poem is a riddle} Whats black white and red all over? we see Black as a color, White as a color and read/ red as color. Yet when you think about it… Black and white are not actual colors as they reflect or absorb all light ray. This requires no special, just normal schooling. So red being a color seems to be off and the way to read that word is red= read. The indicators are the Black and white, and hints to the correct usage of “read” { this riddle is better in a verbal form than written, but you get the gist }

            Another riddle is, What game is played in most schools and if you become a pro, you can make a lot of money doing it…Hint; the game starts with a T. We see or hear T and automatically think the name of the game starts with letter T. Yet the game is Golf and the Game starts start @ the Tee.

            Specialk, you said; “Since there are 100’s of WWWH, we need something besides the poem to give us the understanding we need (ie. which state, specific starting point, etc.)”

            I would counter with this thought. Could all the WWWH in the Rockies relate to each other, and understanding by common knowledge of how the Range was formed, or with very limited research. We now have an understanding of not only what WWH is but narrowed down the area, and possibilities considerably. I personally don’t see external information outside the poem a must… there may come a point, that a reader may have to look up something to remind them or fine tune what they should already know from average schooling and such. But I don’t believe, IMO, That there is anything outside the poem that is a “must need” just helpful recalling.

            And before anyone starts barking… the book! what about the Book?! Yes it is helpful, useful, insightful… yet not “needed” IMO

            The point is, Can the poem be read as a whole, without breaking it down into words and line, to understand what the poem is relaying? and still lead to the chest.

          • Hi Specialklr,

            Just wanted to say I have by no means discarded the poem’s first stanza as a potential clue source. After all, it’s 1/6th of the poem, and Forrest has warned that it is dangerous to discount any of the words in the poem, let alone an entire stanza. A lot of searchers have posted (somewhat cryptically) that there is some “Ahha!” moment to be uncovered in that first stanza, but they’re all keeping their cards close to the vest.

            There are only 25 words to work with, including 3 “and”s, 2 “I”s, and 2 “my”s, so there isn’t a lot of raw material to work with. 😉 The meat of the stanza would seem to be contained in “treasures bold” and “riches new and old”. Perhaps some people think “new” is a clue that the correct state is New Mexico. Or perhaps there are some guys named Rich, Richard or Dick that he’s hinting at. Others seem to be focused on places he’s been known to go alone previously, but then we start to get into that whole issue of the poem not being self-contained.

            So I’ve been keeping all these potentialities in mind when I scan maps of the entire 4-state area, as I don’t have an obvious, unambiguous take-away from that first stanza.

      • I always believe stanza one describes the location of the chest and that stanza 2-6 tells how to get there, that’s why stanza two say BEGIN IT

        • I agree William, The first stanza seems to point out a location which he has gone alone probably multiple times. I see this as 2 clues. Stanza 2 & 3 appear to give you directions to find TC. I think stanza 2 has 4 clues & the 3rd has 3 clues. I think the rest of the stanzas are all straight forward. I have been wrong before so let’s not bet the house on it.
          Gone to Ojo today in fountain flats, seems like a reasonable place to begin. Then again there is one person that knows this for sure. Followed the poem in my context down the Firehole Canyon like many searchers before. It was not far, you know the rest. HOB, there are 3 here in my mind & each one takes you up a different path. Which one I will find out some other day because the truth of the matter is that I spent my first day in YNP actually not caring or looking for the treasure. It was a great day. Strange how mother nature can change your plans without you knowing until it has already happened. I didn’t think anything could sideline my obsession until today. Yes, I found the cure, but not the treasure.

          • Jake, if you haven’t already read about my trip to yellow stone, read “A Redneck from Texas” in other’s adventures. Take a close look in the area just above the falls, including the far side of the river if you can get to it. Hard to see from the road. Also check out the bluff area across the road from the falls, The high point next to the road goes back and there a small bluff area. Good luck, and recheck that bush below the red rock next to the raod. All IMO

          • Good read. We think alike, although we may be fooling ourselves, but I doubt it. It makes sense his secret spot was his bathing spot. Now take the rest of the poem & apply it geographically to a fixed point somewhere between the falls & the begin point would make sense in my mind. too far to walk in my mind pins me on the Madison River below Harlequin Lake. too far to walk may also b just a ref to the bike ride from West Yellowstone to the bathing spot.

      • Seeker, I think this is one of your better posts. I have little differences in my theory…where in the first stanza could mean both a place and places in time. FF’s actions in stanza 1 mirror someone else’s actions in the past. When you find the connection you’ve got your starting point. No need to worry about wwwh until you find the connection and the starting point, imo.

        • Fun,
          I just saw this post… sorry it took so long, but I like this thought. Is the other persons action related to Brown as well? And just out of curiosity, does that other person relate to a state or just and area?
          If you want… use the L&C cipher so no one else can figure out what we are talking about… lol

  78. I wonder if it is inevitable that the chest will be found…meaning if it won’t be stumbled upon,accidentally found, will nature change things so it will be found at some point in time. 100 years-1000 years. If so I have an amazing thought. But even that still won’t get me on the chest..close tho.

  79. Hello searchers:

    BigSkip here.

    As a beginner in the search, I questioned one of the lines in the poem. I am sure it has been discussed may times with some consensus of opinion, but I haven’t found the comments yet. So, let me ask again: I originally read about the TC being “buried” somewhere in the west. This was before F reduced the search area to four states. I believe there was a clarification that the TC was “hidden”, not buried. Now, the TC could be located on private land, state land, federal land or in a National Park. Each of these entities has their own laws and prohibitions regarding lost personal property, treasures, artifacts, etc. with additional specific laws pertaining to national parks. Did FF specifically use the phrase ” I give you title to the gold” to nullify the concepts of “lost personal property” or “abandoned property” which some states and/or Federal government might pursue if the successful searcher were identified? Fenn must have known the consequences of the discovery. Did he purposely include transfer of title and could this help identify the TC state?

    • No one knows for sure, Big Skip. He has said he thought of everything and that whoever finds it can have it. He also discussed Tribal Lands as a possibility, but talked about there being many complexities there. Until the chest is found, however, we really cannot rule any place out. Is there any division of land we’re not considering in this list?

      • Bigskip, BLM land rules are the same for all states. They classify placed property as still being the owner’s, until they give over the ownership willingly, as in “I give you title to the gold.”, or the owner claims it.
        Fed and Nat’l parks state it is against the rules to purposely abandon property, leave it or litter. Any lost/left property becomes the property of the gov’t until the original owner claims it, not the given title owner, and even THEN, the gov’t has the final say if it can be returned or not. Reservation law states the same as Fed/National rules. They would Def keep it!
        So, that gives you one other option besides BLM. Private property laws state, if it’s on your property, you own it, period, until the original owner steps forth, which is F, and he said it’s out of his hands now.
        I don’t see F disrespecting someone’s privacy to hide the treasure on private property.
        My bet, is BLM land. It’s rules shadow the “entitlement” sentence.
        The “tarry scant” sentence, I feel, means be cloy, don’t advertise what you are doing, least you get robbed or discovered…GO in peace. Then, the ball is in YOUR court as to whether you want to disclose the chest’s location. BLM land would have the least repercussions. I feel F looked into the rules/laws of the location, first. It’s the most logical choice. 《IMO + facts, provided by my family lawyer!》He advised to state, “I can’t remember the exact location where I found the treasure.”!
        ¥Peace ¥
        P.S. I suggest, whom ever finds the chest, to seek immediate legal counsel before going public, or just remain anonymous. Wear a paper bag at your interview!

        • Donna,
          Maybe you might think about that statement your Lawyer said. That would be a fast track to a contempt of court [ if it went that direction]. Just a thought.

          I don’t think FF took a terrible amount of time thinking of rules, laws, policies, regulations etc. as those change on a daily basis. He also stated he knew exactly where he plan to hide it when he thought about this quest. That doesn’t seem to take in the legality of where the chest lays in wait. Could Fenn have looked into it over the years, Sure… does that mean he change the spot because of a rule… I don’t think it mattered. IMO if he meant, he was looking a 100 years or more down the road… those rules can’t be relied on by any means.

          Just my opinion.

          • seeker i was just watching some Fenn interviews and in one he said he spent money and time with his lawyer on how to do the TC.

          • Seeker, I like your thoughts. He said he “tried” to think of everything – not that he actually did. Knowing where to hide something and then hiding it where he thought could be two different things.

          • I like your idea and might help narrow it down. That is the best arguement for title for the gold I’ve heard yet. If that line was in there to give ownership over to the finder that the chest would have to be on BLM land. This line of reasoning would explain why the map is color coated with a legend.

  80. Spoon:
    Thanks for the reply. I haven’t thought of any other land areas. As I understand the situation, there are legal consequences where ever the TC is found and the discoverer identified. I suspect FF knew that and simply said, “tarry scant, take the chest and get out of there before someone sees you”, or something like that, in my opinion.


  81. BLM never says anything about me packing other peoples trash out of the park.
    I see the TC as “one mans trash is another mans treasure”.
    That’s my story and I’m sticking to it.

  82. Donna M.

    BigSkip here:

    Thank you for the detailed explanation. I suspected it could get complicated. Happy to read that you too believe FF considered this problem where ever the TC is and may have cleverly instructed us in the poem. Shall keep your information handy as contacting my lawyer about treasure hunting might spread some interesting rumors about this old man. Always in my opinion, however.
    Thanks again

    • @BS

      These are probably subtle hints about location.

      Tarry scant/look quickly down/go in peace/brave and in the wood

  83. I fully agree with not making it public. IMO National Parks rules that if you find lost items turn it in and if not claimed its yours. Fat chance on that happing as far as I am concerned, I think they would try to claim it in the long run. By FF statements and declaring that he gives the finder title to the gold, if you find it its your, therefore you don’t’ have to turn it in, where ever it is.

    BUT PLEASE, if you or any one else finds or has found the TC, please send the bracelet to Forrest, anonymously, so that he can all and end to the chase.

  84. I was reading about the Cerberus Action and came across an article in Newsweek that said the key word in law is ” discover”.

  85. Dal, chasing down possible hints in old scrapbooks. Have you ever discussed horses or ranching with Forrest. He mentioned in one scrapbook being into his “retired rancher persona”

    Does he still keep horses or ‘ride the river’ with friends?

  86. Can someone share the exact quote Forrest made about having his bones placed at the area where the treasure is? Was he wishing he could or was he planning it? If he was planning it, then I would think that would rule out National parks because you cannot be buried in a National park. Also, if he was serious, I would think that what speak volumes of the location. Furthermore, I believe he mentioned something about no one is going to stumble upon the treasure. Wouldn’t that rule out places where millions of people go every year, such as Yellowstone? You have millions of people hiking, swimming, and all kinds of other activities. How could you assure yourself that no one would stumble upon your treasure, especially being an 80 year old man who is limited to where he can get to on foot? One more thing, I don’t think Forrest’s poem is going to take you to a place the size of a football field. Especially if it is so well hidden that no one is going to stumble upon it. I think when the poem is solved it will take you to the exact location.

    • gregorious he doesn’t talk about having his bones placed there. He does talk about going to where the chest is and throwing himself down on top of it. He does that in several videos.

      I don’t know if you can rule out anything with Fenn doing it……Elaborate is the normal way of doing things for Fenn; so what does a guy like Fenn mean when he says he had an elaborate plan about dying.

      4:02 Elaborate plan about dying but not ready to talk about it.

    • greg-
      The “bones” idea comes from the first version of the poem that Forrest wrote. This first poem was written when Forrest believed he had terminal cancer. He was planning on going to this same place with the treasure and ending his life before the cancer ruined his chances of getting there. At that point the poem would have led to not just the treasure chest but also his corpse. So the last line of the poem made reference to the finder taking the treasure but leaving his bones alone.
      Yes…Forrest was planning on ending his life where the chest now lays but when the cancer went away he decided to hide the chest anyway and rewrote the poem to the version we have today.

      Your idea that Forrest would have been “buried” at the site is probably inaccurate. He has indicated that he would simply have taken a handful of sleeping pills…like his father did…and wrapped his arms around the treasure and gone to sleep.

      One can make all kinds of arguments one way or the other about where he intended to end his life..public land…private land..
      But the key to understanding what Forrest ruled out or didn’t rule out is only clear if you take the time to know Forrest, his humor, his interests, his beliefs.

      By the way, all of this has been written about extensively on this blog earlier and with some searching you could have easily found the discussion. There are also several stories written by reporters where this topic is brought up during interviews with Forrest.

      There is a great deal of info here. I hope you will search and read…

  87. An interesting part of that interview was approx. 4:40 into it, fenn had asked Doug Preston to write the thrill of the chase. [ old news, as most searchers know of this already ] But it does raise the question, if that was part of the plan… the Book [written by Mr. Preston]… The hiding of the chest [ by FF ]… the poem [ added to the book by FF], How much information would had been in the book if Fenn felt Preston could write TTOTC for him.

    Sure, The stories may have been the same ones, Yet written slightly different by another.

    Just pondering.

    • Seeker-
      What interview are you referring too?
      I remember that Forrest asked a few folks to write his bio and that didn’t happen but I don’t remember him asking anyone to write his memoir…

        • Seeker/Special-
          I just watched that piece. Thanks for the direction. I don’t think it means anything to the chase…
          I know that Forrest wanted Doug to write his bio but Doug didn’t. I know of one other main stream writer he also asked but didn’t want to do it. When I watch Forrest’s eyes and his posture and listen to his voice when he says that…I think he got ahead of himself. I don’t think he meant to say “The Thrill of the Chase”. It looks and feels like he suddenly became uncomfortable right after he made that statement. He appears to be thinking about something else…maybe trying to figure out how to correct what he said..

          How can someone else write Forrest’s memoir? I don’t see how those stories would be very effective coming from someone else’s brain…

          A memoir is most effective when told by the people involved…otherwise it’s a biography..

          At least that’s how I feel about it..

          I think Forrest’s brain just got ahead of his speech and TOTC came out instead of something else.

        • 25:49

          “I would urge parents. We have a problem in this country with our youth. We’re obese, we sit on the couch to much, we’re in the game room. our youth today, our teenagers today…are going to be the President someday, our Congressmen, our Senator…and we’re not doing enough to groom those people.”

        • Jeremy…but in that one Forrest is talking about the story of hiding his treasure and his body…I don’t think he’s talking about the TOTC that we have today. I think he was thinking about it as a good background for the poem…

          I suspect that what he may have originally wanted was a fiction writer to write a book based on his plan to end his life with the treasure…and have the poem placed in it…
          This may be what he has called his “biography” in the past..
          Then when he couldn’t find a friend to write it…he opted to write the memoir..

          Many of the stories in the memoir came from pieces he wrote for the West Yellowstone paper a few years earlier.
          It is interesting to see how some of the stories changed from their original publication.

          • If the original intent was to have a pop fiction writer tackle it, that does kind of question the long standing theory among many New Mexico searchers that it wasn’t intended for a large audience.

          • Jeremy P: Just wanted to say that Doug Preston has written great NON fiction as well. I think his non fiction works are his best work. The Monster of Florence book is fantastic in my view and I really loved his “chase” in Cities of Gold. I can see why Forrest would have a lot of confidence in him to write the story of his life.

          • Ahhh, didn’t know all this. Kinda plays into my other theory of stanza 5. ‘ Leave my trove’ not being nature dropping her leaves to hide the trove, but leaves being the leaves in a book, his memories are his trove (the book). The answers can’t be written by a ghost writer, so tired and weak explains that he wrote it & the job is done. I like this interpretation better than the last one. Thanks.

  88. I think of how I read the poem the first time, and the thoughts I had. I think of last year this time how I thought I had it nailed down, the poem, that is. Now, the poem is like quicksand…I must be careful where I step because it sucks me in. But it’s not a bad thing, not at all…it’s just…no place for the meek. 😉

    • That is actually a good view of the poem … Quicksand … a reader may come up with an idea/theory/interpretation of a single clue and tries to run with it, stinking deeper without realizing.
      The comment[s] of the first two clues seem to do just that. For those searchers / groups, that were at the first clues, what caused them to step into the quicksand?

      The Wolf has said something that rings very true… IMO. The poem is designed for failure [paraphrasing]. What is it about those two clues that we seem to be missing?

      • I don’t think anything is missing, nor do I believe the poem is “designed” for failure.
        It is us who must follow the right directions, not the wrong ones; up to us to translate the ingredients and prepare the recipe properly.
        There’s a lot of wrongs, but those are eliminated by process.

        • what a great analogy. the poem = recipe. ladies how often have we shared a recipe that a friend couldn’t cook right and blame the recipe not the cook. exchanging one item could change the whole recipe. Fenn has warn us to listen good and not change poem.

          • When little, my sister made cookies once that came out so hard, I threw one (back) at my brother and it hit him in the forehead and left a huge bruise! I remember she called them monkey cookies, but they were more like rocks!

            Point is, 5 people could take that same recipe, and come up with 5 different cookies. (Some dangerous) 🙂

      • howdy seeker! hunch here. is that your real name? seeker?
        anyone with the mettle to strike the trail to where the poem leads them is not a failure. the poem is designed for success. that success being a treasure chest, which is the great outdoors. anywhere the poem leads contains treasure. myself, i dont see where the bronze box is mentioned anywhere in the poem. poem and book clues lead to the chest. seeker change your name to finder. because if youve searched you have found Forres’s treasure.

        • Hunch,
          That’s all well and good. And the challenge to solve the poem and strike the trail has done that for a lot of folks… treasures of the heart, if you will.
          But I don’t need a reason to do just that, and it’s sad that others need the incentive to do so. yet I guess it was a good thing to give a healthy reminder to enjoy the wiles of nature at the same time.

          The challenge at this point for me is to solve the poem.

    • Yes Jdiggins, it’s like quicksand. I have been in West Yellowstone for a few days now. Traveled hundreds of miles already soaking in the sites. Funny though my plan was to search for the treasure when I got here & got sucked into the beauty of this place & surrounding areas. I have not searched for TC yet. I have not put any of my solves to the test yet. This will happen soon if I can become focused on why I took this trip, but mother nature had other plans for me. I have truly found the real treasure. I have been to the White Mountains many times in Vermont, NH & Maine but this place is tops in my book.

      • When you get that close to what the world looked like a long time ago the more stocked you get at what the settlers went through. its amazing. somehow when you see the beauty and vastness of wilderness the TC becomes very unimportant.

    A journalist by the name of Sole Moller who works for the Danish press would like to speak with some searchers who are in NM or southern CO. His topic is the treasure hunt. He needs to speak to folks ASAP for his story so if you are interested in talking about your adventures to the citizens of Denmark please contact Sole via email at:
    hello at solemoller dot com

        • After 6 years people have grown to like the taste of crow. Diggin I think this more about romanticism then reality. News ppl think a gold hunt in the Rocky Mountains make for a good story.

          • His agenda seemed to be more in the motivation and why now about the chest. However, he discontinued discussions with some and not sure if it ended with all. I guess it is best to always ask what the objective is and stick to it. IMO

  90. Gregorious:

    BigSkip here:

    Not sure about that “exact location” comment. In my opinion, it is still going to take some prudent and close detective work to find the TC. As I commented previously, I believe the elements have changed the situation from when FF left the TC at its location. We believe the TC is wet, but we are not sure if that comment refers to “seasonal” wetness. Was it wet when FF said it but he knows it will dry out later in the year? The bronze color will change, the texture of the box lid will attract soil, creating possible mud color. Possible vegetation on it? No, I suspect it’s going to be tough find once we are “there”. Of course, all in my opinion.

    • Is the chest hidden in the (exact) same spot that you would like your bones to be found?

      The spot is the same. f

      I have no desire to be buried in a box. It’s too dark and cold for me, and too lasting. I would rather go into the silent mountains on a warm sunny day, sit under a tree where the air is fresh and the smell of nature is all around, and let my body slowly decay into the soil. What can be better than that? f

      In one recent video interview, Fenn described the treasure as being “wet” and many assumed it was hidden in a river or waterfall, and that was new information.

      It wasn’t.

      “How can anything be in the Rocky Mountains and not be wet,” he said. “Even if it were buried six feet deep, it would still be wet. That’s not a real clue.”

      • Would someone please point me to where Fenn said and I’m paraphrasing here ‘the searcher who solves the clues will walk to the treasure with a smile on there face’

      • In TTotC, Forrest’s notes for fellow adventurers (after his and Donnie’s misadventure), paraphrasing, ‘you can’t hide from a thunderstorm’

      • Close earth, you quoted “I have no desire to be buried in a box. It’s too dark and cold for me, and too lasting. I would rather go into the silent mountains on a warm sunny day, sit under a tree where the air is fresh and the smell of nature is all around, and let my body slowly decay into the soil. What can be better than that? f”.

        Where did that come from? I don’t remember that. I do remember a “rotting in the sun” quote but not your exact quote about sitting under a tree…

        • James,
          check for the quote you asked about.

          IMO it sounds as if he still hasn’t decided which “Place” in the mountains he’ll finally go to.

          FFenn “Indecision is the key to flexibility”

          IMO “the PLACE, which has always remained the same” = mountains [generic term for several places he loves and could see himself resting] There could be 9 different favorite FF places – and of course the poem leads to all.

          None of us know if he plans to rest with the gold he hid for a stranger to find; or plans to rest with his favorite things from his collection somewhere else. Like the N.A. Indians of old, IMO someday he’ll walk outside, look at the sky and say, this is a good day for an old warrior to die. Ending flexibility; make his key decision where, and enjoy a few more sunsets in the pines he loves. I think its a great plan, and hope to have my ashes spread in a mountain place I love.

      • Close earth, thanks much for the above. I am interested in the quote about a sunny day under a tree … slowly decay. Any way you could find where that was given?

  91. I had an idea awhile back, fenn says not far but too far to walk hinting that we can’t walk this distance and another mode of travel would have to be used. Latter on in the poem he says no paddle up your creek, at first all I could think is its an attriubute of the creek. But after a few reads one comes to notice that these are the only two places in the poem that fenn speaks of transportation sort of speak. Another thing to point out is he tells you a mode of transportation that will not be used. Could no paddle up your creek be the place where you change your mode of transportation?

    • As a river guy by trade, I immediately thought of the many rivers I could see the other side of but could not get to it without finding some other place to cross.

      Never needed that observation to craft a solution though. Yet.

    • Count,

      I posted yesterday, or the day before, an example where nothing is as it seems, but it fits. I tried my best to use Seeker’s method, but with one flaw – I used geographic names.

      By the way – this is not an opinion, just an example.

      So here it goes again

      Where warm waters halt and take it in the canyon down. This is one action and clue. It’s a place where waters halt it and then take in into the canyon down.

      Now lets pretend this is 20 questions with answers.

      Where is this place? Oh it’s not far, but too far to walk.

      How far is too far to walk? I don’t know – ten miles.

      Ten Miles? Yep!

      Hmm… Warm waters? yep. Like on a stove(range)? Yep

      So warm waters halt is a place in a range? Yep!

      Like maybe a high place such as a lake? Kind-of.

      Maybe a dry lake? Sort of.

      Hmmm. So am I looking for a rock glacier? Heavy loads and waters high? Yes – I suppose.

      OK – so perhaps I am looking for a cirque. Those exist almost entirely north of Santa Fe, but there are some (not many) south of Santa Fe.

      So am I looking for a cirque which is a rock glacier? Yes!

      OK – So am I looking for a rock glacier in a range that is not too far to walk? Yes!!!!

      So maybe a cirque called Spruce Creek Rock Glacier in the TenMile range? Spruce, as in the wood, Creek, as in no paddle, and Rock Glacier, s in heavy loads and waters high? Bingo!!!

      So, there is an example (partially) where I can zero in on an area and derive a specific location based on the poem alone. It also is an example where I can take the clues out of order, as long as I solve the clues correctly.

      By the way, the above location is a real place.

      Scott W.

      • Forgot to mention – it is NOT point to point directions, but rather a collection of clues that describe a place.

        Scott W

      • I concur with your methodology. Now to fit the matching pieces, instead of trying to jam them together.


        • I wouldn’t call it a jam. One thing I am trying to say is maybe “it” in the second stanza is “not far but too far to walk”.

          If that is the case, then “WWWH and take it in the canyon down” is an adjective as a whole to “NFBTFTW”.

          Just a thought, not yet an opinion.

          Scott W.

          • Scott,
            I’ve been thinking the same way but instead of asking what is too far to walk? I’ve been asking myself what is not far but also far to walk?

          • Count. I agree with you on that, but I am beginning to look at this as something other than distance. However, knowing that distance, the sweet-spot, might help identify “It”. In my example, “It”, is Tensile range.

            Scott W.

          • Scott,
            Here is my email if you would like to discuss this idea more boandrews9 at yahoo com

          • What if all he is saying is NOT RIGHT but turn LEFT and from there it’s too far to walk.Direction and distance.
            “Far” can mean the right side of the vehicle or horse or what ever you are riding into the canyon.

  92. Off topic,
    Is it just me, or is there a gatekeeper page to jenny site all of the sudden? Thx, anyone…

    • Hi JDiggins… I got a funny page that said it wasn’t available or something like that but once I refreshed I got in…

      • Thx spallies. I cleared my cache and it was gone. It’s amazing how dumb people are about computers these days (ME!) Wonder what creeps are crawling…
        Good luck, I ain’t THAT dumb!

  93. It’s been a while since i’ve posted anything. I hope all is well with everyone.
    My Gravatar photo is a hint to what i’ve been doing but is it one of the clues in the poem . Hopefully it excites someone…..enjoy!

    • I think its likely that the gravatar pic is taken at the intersection of HW191 and 491 at Monticello Utah although I have no idea what JJ is trying to hint about. The “Devils Highway” was renamed after bunch of folks thought that a portion of the road in NM where a bunch of accidents happened proved that the highway was cursed.

  94. When I read the ff’s poem, I’ve circled back to an old map that was handed down to me from generations. There are commonalities between my map and ff’s poem. What’s interesting is that the location on my old map mirrors other locations in different states. So, when I review ff’s poem, it reminds me of the “x” location on my map as well as ff’s poem and how it mirrors locations in different states. I emailed ff about it, but he didn’t discuss it.

  95. Today I met-up with the beautiful and brilliant Spallies for a cup of cocoa and a chat about treasure chests and Forrest. We talked nine clues and by combining our vast and varied knowledge about all things mountains and all things bronze we were able to deduce that we have no idea where the chest is hidden….
    Finally…some clarity!!!

  96. The following is my opinion. The searchers who have gotten the first two clues correctly did not know it. I mean, they were there by accident. There has to be a connection between the two correct clues, and the incorrect ones. I think the searchers who have solved the clues accidentally have to have had the same train of thought. The thing is what are these first two clues, and why did these searchers fail to see the rest of the clues? If WWWH is the first clue, then take it in the canyon down would be the second one. Maybe these searchers have gotten these two clues right because they have solved WWWH, and canyon down and have walked past the other clues because they did not actually solve the clues, but thought they had. Which would lead me to believe WWWH is a starting point, but not because of the reasons we think. Now, it leads me to believe that probably the obvious clue of these two would be canyon down. This in fact has to be a canyon going down, as in elevation. So let’s say if had been one of these searchers who had solved these two clues correctly, what would be the third clue, and why would I miss it? Maybe the third clue is not too far two walk, but not far. Here’s what I think. All the clues in the poem are exact, and not vague. They are vague because we have not solve for WWWH, just like my math teacher use to say about x, or, y, or z. It is my opinion that we solve for WWWH by analyzing the poem. I don’t think the poem is complex riddle. I think is more like a game of words, and definitions. When we get to solve WWWH, then all other clues become more and more obvious. All of this is my opinion. RC.

    • RC,
      IMO, you said it… those searchers had the same train of thought. Here is my problem with that train of thought. They all went looking for the next clue the thought as you said, hoB. My question is, did they miss the first clue, which may be the same place as WWWH? misunderstood the first clue or didn’t know the first clue was something other than WWWH?

      The “train of thought” is most think WWWH must be the first clue. Is this the failure in reading the poem and why they went pass the other seven clues. Fenn stated ;
      Question posted 7/1/2014:
      “Mr. Fenn:  In the past when you have said that several people had figured out the first two clues and then went right past the other clues, would you say that they got lucky and just happened to go to the correct starting area, not fully understanding the poem, or would you say that they did indeed solve the first two clues by understanding the poem and clues? C
      Searchers have routinely revealed where they think the treasure was hidden and walked me through the process that took them on that course. That’s how I know a few have identified the first two clues. Although others were at the starting point I think their arrival was an aberration and they were oblivious to its connection with the poem. Playing a hunch is not worth much in the search and those who start out by looking for the blaze, are wasting their time.f”

      …Other were at the starting point I think their arrival was an aberration and they were oblivious to its connection with the poem…
      Whether you want to believe they knew or just had a good hunch doesn’t matter as they surly didn’t know the importance of understanding why they were there. Maybe, just maybe, this is why the next step they took was the wrong choice to make with their train of thought. Maybe we should be asking why WWWH is important [ and I’ll add, works with the first clue ] instead of where WWWH is.

      Anyways… just food for thought.

      • Is it certain that the starting point is not a place in the poem, line stanza, word. That the starting point is in the field. Or the first clue was evidenced by someone telling f where they were step by step. In other words is it clear that all of what f says in what Seeker posted above is in the field?

        • Are you certain the staring point is not in the poem?

          If that is truly, then in that case, we are looking for the second clue to understand the starting point.

          Or are we to believe WWWH is the first clue in the poem and another first clue in the field?

          I’m confused… could you elaborate. Fenn as talked about the first clue’s importance, knowing it is a must, without it we may as well just stay home. So why would the starting point not be the first clue and also not in the poem?

          • Seeker,
            To clarify by example:
            Figured out first two clues might mean simply wwwh=the continental divide 2nd clue could simply be canyon south. Just an example not an opinion. So the clues might be not very helpful.But if f knew they had the first two clues correct because they explained the clues and went to the locations, that is altogether clear to me that the clues solved lead them to a location, which is closer to a step by step type of solve.

          • uken2it,

            What the heck, no one will believe what I’m going to say next, so I’ll just put it out there. I’m not say you are right or wrong, I’m looking at all possible ways of reading the poem. Here’s my present thought.

            There are many WWWH in the Rockies. I say we need to know what they all are. This alone does not pin point a location but give the poem meaning. If you look at the Range itself, the whole system is about waters. WWWH is the second clue in my book, as to know where to start and the first clue to where that is… IMO is the first stanza. a very specific location and told in that stanza.

            With that said. I believe we are reading the poem wrong as a step by step that “we” should do, and more about what the waters are doing. I’m sure most will disagree with this, mainly because the thought is, the poem must be a step by step. And I agree it will be… just at the right point in the poem.

        • Good question, uke….. IMO, no

          F said, “Searchers have routinely revealed where they think the treasure was hidden and walked me through the process that took them on that course.”

          These are two different concepts: (1) where they think the treasure was hidden and (2) the process they employed

          The “process” they described could well hold the answer to the first two clues. Something they used or place they went while researching. When they told F about it, he would have thought, “you have solved the first two clues….but you don’t know it!).

          And, as RC pointed out, Fenn has never said that it was the correct “process” which those searchers employed which had led them to being near the Chest.
          It could have been mere happenstance……they told him their “process” and detailed everywhere they went while on their trip, searching or not.

          So, he could easily say, “they solved the first two(but didn’t know it) and were near the chest”.

          So, IMO, while the first two clues may be in the field, they may not necessarily be outdoors. But, they are part of the process.

          • Loco,

            I have this comment, Yet I don’t recall where I got it from. I believe it was a video or radio recording. I was hoping if you could shed some light on it, if you know anything about it.
            I don’t know of anyone that’s inside of 200 ft, but you know, I don’t know, they tell me where they are, and some of them exactly where they are, and so that’s how I know that. But so many of them tell me that they’re in a spot that’s in close proximity to the treasure, but they don’t know that they’re that close to it

            Thanks in advance, for any information you or anyone else can provide.

          • Seeker, I don’t remember that exactly that remark, but here is one that is very similar. (Is it possible you combined a couple??)


            Forrest: Yes, people have come pretty close… I know people have been within 200 feet because they’ve told me exactly where they were… I don’t know that anyone has been closer than 200 feet to the treasure. @~08:54

            I’ll look some more to see what I have>

      • IMO FF’s comment about “two people had figured the first two clues but went past the others” and his comment about “some have been within 500 ft” were not referring to the same people to the best of my knowledge. If someone can tell me where he said if it was together please let me know.
        My other thought is that to “take it in the canyon down”, you have to “put in below home of brown”, which puts HOB and WWWH close together. TFTW is the journey through the canyon to the “end” which is where you “put out”. The blaze and TC should be close to that area. All IMO of course.

      • Seeker* This is my opinion. To my knowledge nobody had understood what the first clues are, including me. I think there is a significance between the first few clues that have to do with the biggest clue of all, which cannot be solved without the hint in the first stanza. To me all the first clues have a grater meaning among them than we think. The relationship between these clues is so closely related that they are umbilical and symbiotic. Yes it is my opinion that all the clues cannot survive without the first, therefore the most important clue of them all. RC.

        • I believe most go about the first few clues the wrong way. It makes me think of something Forrest said on the sep14 interview, he said you have to think the right things or somthing along thoes line. I think focusing on wwwh may not be the entire answer to that clue but maybe where the water goes after?

        • What most people think are “clues” in the poem are really just “steps in direction”. IMHO

  97. James (TZP):
    Please clarify: are you referring to Joseph’s comment about getting to the other side of the river?

      • James,
        I was referring to p. 65 of TTotC, where Forrest is commenting on being out on the mountains.

        How do you hide from a thunderstorm in the mountains? No caves allowed. 🙂

  98. All the following is my opinion. Those searchers that have been close to the chest have gotten the first two clues correct, even by accident. If WWWH is the first clue, then they did not get their WWWH correct, even though, they thought they did because they went right past the other clues. Why is WWWH so difficult to understand? I think it is because some of us instead of reading the poem as something unique we are reading it just as we would read, and understand other words in a book.

    The first stanza is critical, to me, in understanding clues in the poem. If this is the first clue in the poem then it would be obvious to pay special attention to it, but if this is, in fact, only a hint, does that mean we throw it away, or do we embrace it and try to figure out what Mr. Fenn means? To me this hint tells me WWWH is, and once a searcher gets to WWWH, he or she, finds himself, or herself going down the canyon. But what is the third clue? I believe the distance between the first clue and the second clue is the longest distance, then it gets closer and closer, it may be physically closer but who know? RC

  99. I went back to review “My War For Me” and a few things jumped out. 1) FF’s impression of the French soldier’s grave and the realistic view as well as what other soldiers thought of it. Ff mentioned that he made a big deal out of something and felt foolish. Second, he was tired when he left the officers’ club. Last, that his last sentence in that chapter says so much. Now, if I step back and consider these thoughts when reading the poem, I can see how a person could walk right on by Indulgence.

      • @Cholly, Cool, you see it too. IMO and just pulling from text:

        “When I inhaled, the gauge winked…”97- Blaze on exhale
        “take me down the length of the Eastern…”96
        “The air was quiet”97 “silent mountain” Listen good.
        My body was already tired. 96
        “The answer at last is obvious to me.” 102
        Go in peace.103

        I’ll stop here, because I already said too much.

      • for us that it’s the first paragraph on pg 103 “When the realization hit me at last I knew if I cannot enrich those with whom I interact each day and cause them to be better for my having passed their view, then I have wasted my turn. That I succeed in this endeavor is not as important as it is for me to make a solid try. For if the try is sincere I have succeeded in whatever failure resulted.”

        please check book i am terrible at typing and may have missed a word even tho i checked it three times each time finding an error

  100. If I didn’t read FF’s book, I would be looking for the perfect place that matches the poem. But, IMO, I think I need to look at something different. Something that the average person would look at it as the perfect resting place.

  101. I meant to say that the average person would NOT look at the area as the ideal/perfect resting place for Indulgence. IMO

    • I think I understand now. Whoever finds the treasure will have analyzed the poem, and the poem only. And that place will make itself seen. And I do not think looks matter, in that respect anyways. RC.

  102. For me, I think it is safe to rule out popular national parks. How could you insure that no one was going to stumble upon your treasure in a place where you have millions of people every year exploring, unless you bury it? Can you imagine how crushing it would be for Forrest if some goof dropped his drawers to take a pee and noticed the chest by accident. I think the chest is somewhere with very little traffic and very little exploration taking place. That still leaves a HUGE searchable area but eliminates a lot of very public areas, unless, he buried it.

  103. @Scott, I think the circular table is both circular and linear. The DNS is the beginning. IMO

  104. My IPad is auto correcting words again. I meant to say the end is the beginning. Scratch DNS.

  105. Then, I would think that the people that past Indulgence were just starting out on the chase and didn’t go through the full circle to find Indulgence. IMO. But, it makes sense.

        • Well bug, interesting. why would one want to out run the well bug?? Is the well bug death that takes away the pain??

          • I don’t know that’s why I wanna know of anyone knows what it means or what the heck he meant

          • Diggin gypsy i think it is part of a phrase Olga coined to say she was dying. she ran faster than the well bug so she couldnt be well.

    • In one of my opinions it means to chase that little critter that skims across the water out of my well. But for Olga I’m sure the meaning was much more grim, unfortunately.

    • DG – somewhere on the 9 clues thread I’ve noted below there’s a discussion about Forrest using the word well bug. You may have to scroll to find it.
      It may have to do with a death wish.

      The Nine Clues…Part Twentyeight | Thrill Of The Chase › 2014/08/13 › the-nine-c…
      Mobile-friendly – Aug 13, 2014 – Forrest using the term “well bug” over and over is odd. Yes, we know ….. The icon of the star that died

  106. Someone may have already said this. I haven’t been keeping up like I used to but I just posted this response over at Jenny’s in response to the new Question with Forrest. I just wanted to share it here also.

    “Well, my two cents is that Forrest is going to have his ashes spread where the chest lies. That’s the only way these days that you could let your body slowly decay into the soil. In the silent mountains, under a tree where the air is fresh and the smell of nature is all around. (Hint…Olga’s ashes)

    It actually sounds like a very peaceful and a wonderful place to be. I wouldn’t be surprised if Peggy followed. She went with him where ever he was stationed. She’s camped, fished, and been by his side all these years.

    So to think he wouldn’t do that because he wouldn’t leave Peggy is nonsense. They’ve probably plotted that last adventure together.

    Thank you Jenny and Forrest. <3"

      • Yes true, but he wouldn’t necessarily have to tell Peggy that he also hid the treasure chest there. So it is possible that she doesn’t know.

        • That would mean that it would be impossible to see the chest, from the ash spreader’s point of view, when the ashes are spread over the chest.

          Ramona said:
          “Well, my two cents is that Forrest is going to have his ashes spread where the chest lies. ”

          I find this conversation particularly morbid and wish to withdraw.

          Scott W

        • Also if he were having his ashes spread by plane as Olga did, he would not have to tell whoever does the honors.. And even if someone who was doing the honors trekked up into the Rocky Mountains with his ashes, he could have made his actual place very close but not directly near the treasure chest. It’s not impossible.

          • to anyone has Fenn every said that there were hints, clues etc in scrapbook pages or are they just to entertain. they are very good i just spent most of today reading then and aberrations. i am up to part 15 of the blog

          • I agree with you, Scott. It’s a very sad topic to think about. I prefer not to think of it myself. I, for one, hope that Forrest and Peggy live for a long while yet. There are many ways to make music, but none of us look forward to missing the leader of the band.


            May he never leave us for a long while.

    • Haven’t seen the question and answer but FF says Peggy doesn’t know where its, so how could she follow if somebody doesn’t find the chest? IMO.

  107. All,
    I may have (IMO) figured out why the line:
    “The end is ever drawing nigh;”
    is phrased that way. It may be because the pilot of a light aircraft looks out of the left window of the aircraft. Has anyone else arrived at a similar explanation? (Time for me to schedule another trip to the Rockies.) Thanks!
    “Have flashlight, will travel”

  108. Hmm. That kinda flows with my other pieces: Federal Aviation Regulations (FAR) and Too Far (Take Off and Final Arrival)

  109. Specialklr wrote: “Scott, the whale riddle is different. Each line gives a different aspect of the solution.”

    Yes, but it is also a weak analogy because the riddle requires special knowledge to solve. If you’ve never read the Bible, you have no hope because the answer is entirely dependent on that source material, and is not derivable from the riddle itself, nor other general knowledge.

    So I certainly *hope* Fenn’s poem is self-contained (other than requiring a good map), and not drawing on some other text for secret knowledge.

    Specialklr continues: “Forrest’s poem is like a map with different way points along the way. These must be arrived at in a specific sequence. We have been told it is a waste of our time to first attempt to locate the blaze.”

    In large part, I agree. But because the poem’s directions are probably deliberately vague by design, they cannot be followed correctly without proper association. Beating a dead horse here, but WWWH is not a unique starting point, so it cannot be considered an actionable waypoint without some additional information.

    I think the nine clues must work in concert with one another for any of them to be usable. Maybe not all nine simultaneously, but I’m betting you’ll need the first 3 or 4 working together before you can establish a good starting point.

  110. Specialklr wrote: “Scott, the whale riddle is different. Each line gives a different aspect of the solution.”

    Yes, but this is a weak analogy because this riddle requires special knowledge in order to solve it. If you’ve never read the Bible you have no hope, because the answer is entirely dependent on that source material, and is not derivable from the riddle itself, nor other general knowledge.

    So I certainly *hope* Fenn’s poem is self-contained (other than requiring a decent map), and not drawing on some other text for secret knowledge.

    Specialklr continues: “Forrest’s poem is like a map with different way points along the way. These must be arrived at in a specific sequence. We have been told it is a waste of our time to first attempt to locate the blaze.”

    In large part, I agree. But because the poem’s directions are probably deliberately vague by design, they cannot be followed correctly without proper association. Beating a dead horse here, but since WWWH is clearly not a unique starting point, it cannot be considered an actionable waypoint without additional information.

    I think the nine clues must work in concert with one another for any of them to be usable. Maybe not all nine simultaneously, but I’m betting you’ll need the first 3 or 4 working together before you can establish a good starting point.

    • Alright, since that worked, I’ll try again to post my comment from yesterday. Specialklr wrote: “Scott, the whale riddle is different. Each line gives a different aspect of the solution.”

      Yes, but this is a weak analogy because this riddle requires special knowledge in order to solve it. If you’ve never read the Bible you have no hope, because the answer is entirely dependent on that source material, and is not derivable from the riddle itself, nor other general knowledge. So I certainly *hope* Fenn’s poem is self-contained (other than requiring a decent map), and not drawing on some other text for secret knowledge.

      Specialklr continued: “Forrest’s poem is like a map with different way points along the way. These must be arrived at in a specific sequence. We have been told it is a waste of our time to first attempt to locate the blaze.” In large part, I agree. But because the poem’s directions are probably deliberately vague by design, they cannot be followed correctly without proper association. Beating a dead horse here, but since WWWH is clearly not a unique starting point, it cannot be considered an actionable waypoint without additional information. I think the nine clues must work in concert with one another for any of them to be usable. Maybe not all nine simultaneously, but I’m betting you’ll need the first 3 or 4 working together before you can establish a good starting point.

      • z –

        that wasn’t my point. The point was that the whale riddle is a list of clues that help you to determine one thing – “what am I”?

        I was trying, unsuccessfully, to suggest that it is possible that the clues in Fenn’s poem might not be point-to-point directions, but rather a list of descriptors that zero yu in on the final and correct answer.

        By the way – you posted the above message about five times. I see it below as well.

        Scott W.

        • Scott, guessing you may be working from home today? Your ‘what am I’ comment, reminds me of the game show ‘What’s my line’. For a while I tried making a connection with Salmon swimming upriver to spawn & Fenn’s line about ‘done it tired/now I’m week’.

          • Hey nine –

            I tried my best for a very long time to tie in trout spawning to the poem. It is actually one of the few solves that I could not force to fit.

            With that said, It sure seems to be a logical assumption.

            Scott W

        • Hi Scott — as to the repeats, that was a blog bug. Goofy discovered that my posts were going to the spam folder for some unknown reason, and apparently approved all of them without realizing they were all slightly different versions of the same post. Apologies for inadvertently cluttering up the page!

          Apparently it wasn’t clear that I actually agree with you: I don’t think the poem is strictly giving point-to-point directions (even though it seems to be written that way). What appear to be the early clues are too vague to be helpful, taken one at a time. But keep in mind, Forrest has said we must find the right starting point, otherwise deciding what things like the blaze are is a waste of time. That implies there is a proper order to things. So I’m in favor of some sort of hybrid approach, where some fraction of the nine clues work together to give you a specific starting point, and the remainder steer you in the rest of the way.

          • anyone please! i asked question about where i could find when Mr f said searcher were close in 2011. i saw it on my phones email but now on my computer it has been swallowed. who ever answer me or knows the answer please repost.

    • Don’t mean to hound poor Goofy, but it sure is frustrating that I can post a message with no helpful content (like this one) but as soon as I try a real message it ignores me.

      • Let’s try paragraph by paragraph. Specialklr wrote: “Scott, the whale riddle is different. Each line gives a different aspect of the solution.” Yes, but this is a weak analogy because this riddle requires special knowledge in order to solve it. If you’ve never read the Bible you have no hope, because the answer is entirely dependent on that source material, and is not derivable from the riddle itself, nor other general knowledge.

      • Wow, success! Continuing: Specialklr added: “Forrest’s poem is like a map with different way points along the way. These must be arrived at in a specific sequence. We have been told it is a waste of our time to first attempt to locate the blaze.” In large part, I agree. But because the poem’s directions are probably deliberately vague by design, they cannot be followed correctly without proper association. Beating a dead horse here, but since WWWH is clearly not a unique starting point, it cannot be considered an actionable waypoint without additional information.

      • Zap I haven’t worked out all the kinks with the auto-pilot switch on the new nuke button. 🙂

        Just kidding…….you’re not being thrown into moderation; sometimes that happens. So I looked in the spam folder and there your comments are. I don’t know why they are in the spam folder. I’m going to approve them and let’s see if that solves it. So if someone sees duplicate post by you that’s why.

        If it happens again email me and let me know.

        • Thanks, Goofy! I was trying to play detective and figure out why the spam filter liked some of my posts, but barfed on others. About all I could come up with was that the longer the post, the greater the chance it would be tagged as spam, and that perhaps paragraph separations were triggering it.

  111. Begin “it”… ‘it’ is the day. maybe your last day on earth. Begin your day at WWWH.

    And if you are at the right spot you may see ‘the blaze’ come over the right peak at the right time. Maybe just have to spend the whole day there.

    your quest ‘to cease’ = two c’s = 200 = 2:00pm (cant be 0200, no blazing sunlight then).

    This is the time the shadow marks the exact local. allll in my o. and hopefully ff’s as well. hahaha

    • Nav – the problem I have always had with a shadow being cast, or a sunbeam lighting a spot at a certain time of day, is that you also need to know the day as well. The shadows at 2:00 on October 7th are not falling in the same place as the shadows being cast on March 7th, as the sun is not is the same relative position relative to you and the object you are viewing.

      Scott W

  112. Are bandelier or Jemez mountains off limits? are they considered part of the rocky mountains?

    • The main thing that led be to search the Bandelier area is that it is vertically bounded by 5000 and 10,200 feet. It is also very close to his home.

      However, there are some that say it is closer to due west of Santa Fe rather than North. An argument was made by Dal (long time ago) that it is not even in a Northerly direction from Santa Fe. For this reason, I gave up on Bandelier.

      Scott W

  113. I think the word ‘nine’ itself may means a completely different thing than anything I have ever heard discussed and I don’t think it’s the numerical value of the quantity of clues. For example if he’d said ‘the following poem contains ‘blue’ clues, words like “water”, “alone”, “cold” etc would be key. With a different take on nine they could also still be sequential…and people could still have solved 2 and gone past the rest….as the ‘rest’ is literally the answer to ‘go in peace’. Aka= They solved two and went past the third. As a matter of fact…I’m feeling rather confident and mobile in this. Road trip anyone?

    • ‘Blue’ clues… very clever thinking Jamie.
      Would it be safe to say… Gone by the rest… you mean the final resting place of the chest? And if so, that would seem that the first two clues land you near the spot or as the word warm, meaning close, would indicate such. This could also relate to WWWH and HLAWH as the same location. Could Halt, in the same line of thinking be saying to the readers, you need to stop here?
      Or is the thought you have on “Rest,” different? I can understand if you don’t wish to tell… It will be just between you and I… Promise I won’t tell anyone else…. Just whisper it. lol

    • I would sign up for that road trip! I drive a ZooLander so we wad be safe and I’d practice restraint. For sure we’d find some blue-bear-ies for cobbler.

  114. I meant went by the third clue/key/solve (not necessarily out of 9) Which was literally “rest”. Acquired from “take the chest and ‘go in peace’
    Go in peace=rest in peace

    They got the first two (they were wise, AND found the beginning/blaze–also note how similar ‘if you’ve been’ sounds EXACTLY like ‘a few have been’ ) then they just skipped (looked quickly down) by the (literal) “rest” in peace. Just a thought…

    I think more people should note that forrest SAYS things…the reporters write them. Say forrest SAYS “too” that could be written “two”. I won’t elaborate on more important words this may or not pertain too but I’m sure you can find them…

    • Jamie,
      I got it. And I like your thinking. Let’s play a little with NFBTFTW.
      Let’s take far by definition as right… So not far or not one right, but two rights to walk. Picture you are standing and looking down the canyon or even line of sight in a southern direction.

      Turn right or west to the next place( I’ll call it a place for now). Turn right again. What you have is a 90 angle from your starting point or a triangle pointing not only to another spot… But behind you or north from your first spot.

      This maybe why others missed the seven remaining clue… The went down or south and didn’t understand that NFBTFTW may not be a distance… But maybe a directional pointer.

      Food for thought

      • Seeker–I really
        Like that idea. I had come up with “trip” for meaning all three of
        1: alternate/literal dictionary definition of “halt”
        2: take it down in the canyon (a journey)
        3:Not far, but
        Too far to walk.

        The last exemplifies the most clearly the wordplay that got
        what got me to where I’m
        Headed to now 🙂

        This also puts go new meanings on F “taking two trips”
        “Someone stumbling on it”

        I have no problem sharing those examples because they’re
        More “hints” as they don’t give directions to the location…but do confirm one is solving in the correct path.
        Just IMO

        Hey Fun- you serious? We could leave tomorrow if you wanna- I just landed in Salt Lake City and picking up
        A pickup now. I can scoop U up
        If you want 🙂

    • If it weren’t written in the book, f may have been saying there were “nein clues” or has he been using homophones?

      • this concept of islands goes back a ways and this film was made in 2010 and very intriguing.

        • @Hammer13 and Wildbirder: yes, agreed about ‘island’ sort of what some folks visualize as a possible special place and safer than an island in a river….. Also, location fits into casual drive from town and not a bad tourist attraction for the good ole folks from the flat lands…IMO on the list of must check outs for sure, glad ff confirmed location is on the map and therefore a possibility….sad to hear about pinons dying off….

          • cholly we know this area has been dismissed by other because of the tftw map i can read the map on line there are places labeled near SF and i cannot make them out can you of someone else read them. i do not own the book yet working that.

          • This was one of my first areas when researching the poem. I believe I read somewhere that the area is North of Santa Fe.

    • Speaking of heavy stream loads

      There’s a passage in the chapter Lewis and Clark that reads:

      “We decided to follow a fast-running stream that seemed to have an anxious purpose of some sort… Gradually, that little stream got narrower and narrower and deeper and deeper until it developed vertical sides that nothing could get through but water.”

      I mean, that’s half the poem right there.

      “fast-running stream”: yields heavy loads

      “deeper and deeper”: waters high

      “narrower and narrower” “vertical sides”: canyon

      Doesn’t say where this is, just north of West Yellowstone in Montana, above Hegben Lake and Red Canyon, somewhere in the vicinity of “the highest mountain we’d ever seen”.

  115. The following is my opinion. I would like to write about the first stanza, and its importance. What if this is the most important clue of them all? Would that make sense? I know there is some searchers that will disagree with me, and there’s some that will agree. If WWWH is the internet,and canyon down is looking at a map, like focusing, then the first stanza makes sense to me. After someone finds the physical starting point on a map, then WWWH would take another meaning. Canyon down would too. I think Mr. Fenn has said before to start at the beginning, and the beginning to me is the first stanza of the poem, and not necessarily the physical starting point. If the first stanza is the first clue, could WWWH and take it in the canyon down be the second clue? If this were true then Not far, but too far to walk would be the third,and fourth clue. Put in below the home of Brown would be the fifth. RC.

    • Michael,

      I don’t know about you, but when I look down I see my feet. and if I where to find a blaze and look quickly down, I might notice I have a hot-foot. Therefore my quest to cease.

      BTW – I’m looking at your avatar and I don’t notice anything different about your body configuration. How can you see your mouth? Just curious.

      Scott W

      • Yeeeah…um…I don’t see anything below my belly.
        So, I look quickly down, stick out my lips and tonque, and I see my mouth.
        The only other “look quickly down” I can see might be a cliff or waterfall. Both are too far to walk. But, I think that I will stay with the mouth of a river or creek. Many of the tributaries of the Rio Grande have all of these features…cliffs, waterfalls, heavy loads water high.

        • Interesting Michael. You see your belly when you look quickly down? Maybe belly is what we are looking for , not feet. I have been trying to figure out how to look two feet down without digging.

      • Q1,

        “I don’t know about you, but when I look down I see my feet. ”

        You bragging about being able to see your feet when you look down…. Some of us only wish

      • When I look down I can barely see the tip of my nose. Not sure if adding the word tip is helpful in any way.

  116. When I read ‘look quickly down’ in the poem I think of TIME! If you think about it, to do something quickly is very much time relevant. As I commented earlier bout this time last night. I believe if you are standing a spot (‘the spot’ if you will), you will see a particular shadow cross a marker at the right time. In 1000 yrs from now how far off would a shadow of something permanent be from the the axis it crossed 1000 yrs earlier?

    • That is really a very complicated question. Earth’s elliptical orbit rotates every 112,000 years (perihelion precession). Where in the sky Earth’s rotational axis points does a full circle every 26,000 years (axial precession). Plus the angle of Earth’s tilt varies from~21 to ~24deg every 41,000 years.

      Now throw in some general relativity, and the answer is………………I haven’t the foggiest, but once you get to thousands, it may not be negligible.

      I am far, far, more interested in how it is you plan to be around in 3015. 😉 How much of the Rockies can one inspect in 1000 years?

  117. couldn’t it always, or just not? But we all just expanding a little bit denigrating a little bit at a time, moment by moment. The universe expands and so does the solar alignment of our system. A shadow of here on earth over a 1000 years will change its route. Maybe just an inch, it does depend on the angle you are viewing it from tho, trust me many places change in geography over time and the shadows they cast, some do not.

    • Hammer –

      You sparked a thought in my little brain. I have no idea why your comment made me think of this, but it did.

      Have you ever played poker? What do you do with the “hole” card (s)? You look quickly down, barely lifting the edge of the card(s) from the table; just to take a peak. You don’t look long at all, especially if you have two Aces. I suppose you would tarry scant in marvel gaze in such a case, so your opponents don’t read your tell.

      With that thought in mind, the statement at the very beginning of the book would be a hint. “Life deals you …. “.

      We also know that Fenn gambled. – at least while playing pool.

      Have you ever played Texas Hold-em?

      Perhaps the poem solves to a name of a card game.

      Now to figure out the flop, river, and turn. Perhaps “Hear me all” is All-in.

      I hate this poem! Now I will be up all night trying to figure out if the poem describes a card game; a game with a location on the map.

      Blaze: Also called blazer, all cards are jacks, queens, and/or kings.

      Scott W

      • turn-river-all in-pokeher. I bet that’s a pro-found thought. A step in the Right direction- where though? The poem, a poker game? Who’da thunk it.

      • Q1,
        I have some notes somewhere that took this route but never applied it with such a broad blaze as the whole poem. I’ll go dig out my notes and dust them off. Wikipedia is a good start of info on poker terms put better info googling for those interested.

    • Oh, boy, Scott, you hit the nail on the head with Fenn’s previous trade–dealer. ;-). You have to know when to hold ’em, know when to fold’em, etc. being a dealer is like gambling–you win some and lose some.

  118. My opinion:

    Simply ff’s way of obtaining the rhyme he needs in the poem and at the same time implanting unnecessary words to ad intrigue and uncertainty. As I have shared previously, the poem is simply a road map, cleverly disguised without references to distances and specifics. My solve indicates a fair amount of research on ff’s part related to the “clues” probably done over many years. As I continue, I suspect this cleverness to prevail. It will take good detective work to unravel what he has prepared especially when confronting the “blaze”. Of course, in my humble opinion.

    • BigSkip,

      I am starting to lean toward Seeker’s camp. I’m not sure the poem is a road map. I used to be sure, but not any more.

      The only thing that is keeping one foot in the “road-map” camp is something Fenn said when asked if the clues existed when he was a kid.

      Paraphrasing – The clues didn’t exist, but most of the places did.

      So, I am having a hard time letting go of the concept that the individual clues don’t point to individual places. Also, his statement implies that there is at least one place that didn’t exist when he was a kid, if taken at face value.

      Scott W

  119. OFF TOPIC
    Only a couple hours left to send me your ADVICE CONTEST entry. We close to entries at 6pm (Santa Fe time) tonight.
    You will then have all weekend to send me your vote..
    One vote per person and you must add a comment on the ADVICE entry page in order to qualify to vote..

    Winner will have the most votes and will get the grand prize a SIGNED and INSCRIBED by Forrest, Leon Gaspard book. Very cool!!
    2nd and 3rd place prizes are a 500 year old, or so, pottery sherd from Forrest’s San Lazaro ruin in New Mexico. I put pics up of the sherds on the contest page…

    I took a similar sherd and had a jeweler make a silver frame for it and put it on a chain. It’s a lovely and absolutely unique necklace that looks really great on Kathy.

    If you sent an ADVICE entry but don’t see it posted..resend it..I must have missed it…

  120. Q1werty2;

    Thanks for the reply. I had heard of ff’s comment before regarding, “the clues didn’t, but the places did”. I chuckled at that comment originally as being a typical ff play on words. I thought it was obvious that when ff was a kid, where ever he was, the actual clues didn’t exist because he had no thought of hiding a TC, and therefore, never a need for a famous and perplexing poem. He had never thought about referencing those physical places. Consequently, no “clues”. But he had visited those spots as a kid and remembered them well, so they all existed in reality and later became clues in his directions (poem). Am I missing something in that reasoning or is there something else?


    • I agree BigSkip. And furthermore, he may never have followed the poem-path from start to finish himself. Since this place was a place he would never forget, he could well have spent a decade devising a route that he could describe (however vaguely) that would be solvable but not easy.

  121. Joseph:

    Thanks for the reply. I think you’ve go it. Your description of ff “spending a decade devising a route” that he could describe in a poem, vaguely and mysteriously, and yet drive to the spot, park, get out and make two trips to the TC location says it all. And done by a 79-80 year old adventurer. As I indicated previously, my solve so far indicates ff has put a lot of thought and research into the simplest of words and terms to get us to the spot. And it may be just down the road. Of course, my humble opinion. What say you?

  122. Seeker and others,
    IMO, “leave my trove” would apply if TC were found after Forrest’s passing. (“Treasure trove” is another way of saying “treasure discovered” (IMO), and would apply if the owner were no longer alive.) If the owner is still alive, the appropriate thing to do is to return it to the owner.
    One more note: I don’t know much about card games, but my favorite search area involves both a “river” and a “turn”.
    “Have flashlight, will travel”

    • I just looked up flop: “to fail completely”
      Unfortunately, that one applies as well.

      • For those who might not get the “flop”, “turn”, “river” statement.

        Two cards (hole cards) are dealt face down to each player and then five community cards are placed face-up by the dealer—a series of three (“the flop”) then an additional single card (“the turn” or “fourth street”) and another additional card (“the river” or “fifth street”).

        Scott W

          • I forgot about that one. Thanks for the reminder. Adding “marked cards” to the list.

            Scott W.

          • No problem.It was fresh in my mind from playing in a friendly game at my neighbors lastnight.I always enjoy your postsQ1.You have a lot of good ideas.

          • Thanks Fin

            I changed my posting style a few months ago. I decided to just post what I am thinking rather than cryptic ideas that know one could possibly understand.

            I’m having a lot more fun now that I decided to do that. I’ve made some friends too!

            Scott W

          • Interesting…
            Given a little poetic license, our favorite search area could be described by: a hole, a burn, a flop, a turn, and a river….and in that order.

          • My wife just came in the room to see what I was laughing at!

            But when you think about it, it’s probably a better start than 99% of the solves to date; right or wrong.

            Scott W

    • What if the finding and the passing happen at the same time? I have often wondered if that’s how it will go.

      • I wonder sometimes if an “3vil personality” isn’t playing us all, how can we be sure….not Forrest of course but maybe someone who knows but plays dumb. I CAN’T SHAKE THE FEELING : evil

  123. Heading out tomorrow for search #2. I have made comments but will show my cards when I get back.

    I really like the tone of this blog. Having been bitten by the Fenn bug if i can help in any way then so be it.

    The next week will see if i am smarter than I think or just dillusional.

    Thanks to Dal, Goofy and the rest of you all.


    • Hammer13, have a good time! If you don’t find it, join the tens of thousands in the same boat. I do wish you success! 🙂

    • Hammer! hunch here! forge ahead, pound the pavement and beat the bushes! claw at the dirt, peen the rock. may the spirit of Thor guide you!
      thats all i got.
      good luck.
      hope you nail it.

  124. I’ve been reading the TTOTC My War For Me Section and on page 90, in the third paragraph, I read ff was lifted up by a helicopter using a cable and the experience took his breath away. Are there any trams North of Santa Fe? I saw the Sandia tram and the new zip lines. Just wondering….

      • @inthechaseto, thank you for sending this link. I’ve read this before and it’s very interesting. It reminds me of Leo Buscaglia book. It’s also scary that a person can function without being “present” and handling bombs. How long have you been searching? I’ve been searching since early July 2015.

      • @inthechaseto.
        I just wondering how the long version is better than what’s in ff’s book. You suggested this to all newbies so before I ignore it, just wanted to know if it has any value over the section in the book. thanks!

        @Dal and Goofy,
        Maybe a “newbie” page can be added for us that don’t know much about the chase. I guess we’ll be given this tile by ancients until the gold is found.

        • Rose,

          the “newbie” page is everything ever written, posted, recorded, or videoed by Fenn before today.

          Anything else you read can, for the most part, be thrown in the 86 basket.

          Scott W

        • Rose –

          Ancients – ya, that’s a good name to call us – how about I am a Middlest. After Dal and before you.

          I started the hunt September 2012 – but feels like 1812 – wasn’t there a war then ? 🙂

          I just like the long version better and have always wondered why Forrest changed it for the book. You tell me why – I’m old and tired and really ancient.

          • @inthechaseto,
            There are always a number of factors that come into play, but definitions are the most important as well as title. Let’s just say I fit that category too–ancient.

          • Rose –

            It sure seems like you have been around a lot longer than 3 months…………so you go girl…………I wasn’t referring to you as a newbie…Thanks for you contributions – as we both age gracefully……….

  125. For the “directions” Camp.

    I am having a difficult time abandoning the idea that the poem is a set of directions, so here is a polished thought on a post I previously hammered out.

    However, and I know you hate this, I’m not going to reveal everything in my tiny brain in this post. But a BUNCH will be shared. I will stop at stanza 5 and most of stanza 6.

    No Facts Here – just rambling thought.

    FYI – this is going to be very long.

    We need to make one assumption for this to work. The assumption is that Fenn is not speaking to us; he is being spoken to. This assumption allows us to assemble the clues out of order (from linear poem point of view), but in order from a logical point of view. It will be contiguous, as Fenn stated it would be.


    First Stanza is the voice telling Fenn he must make the journey. The same journey as the voice has made in the past. This journey will take him to not only the end (old), but also the beginning (new). The journey is the passage from the living to the other side. He is approaching the alter; the alter where one might be baptized as an infant, married as a young man, and eulogized at the end.

    Fenn has told us to read the poem over and over again. He has told us to read it slowly. To me that indicates that there is something in the poem I need to know before I begin. He has stated that there is a word that is key, and I believe that word is “listen”.

    The last stanza appears to have instructions. I believe they are instructions that we need in order to understand where and how to begin. … listen good. I listened and came up with at least 30, “sounds like”, ideas – which I have posted here over the last few months.

    Hang with me.

    Stanza two – the most complicated part of the poem

    Begin it WWWH and take it in the canyon down.

    Take it in the canyon down is the second step, BUT – the location to this canyon is below the home of Brown. So to find the canyon, we have to find hoB after we find WWWH.

    IMO, WWWH might be the Salt River Range. Why? Because I listened good.

    Warm Water Salt
    Turned around = Salt Water Warm
    Water = River
    Warm = stove or range

    The canyon – we don’t know yet. Because we have to figure out the hoB. Once we find hOB, we can put in to the canyon down.

    hoB – Fenn has told us in the preface of the book (the edges) that the mountains are his church. We know from stanza one that he is returning to the alter.

    In the younger years of Fenn, it was still common practice for clergymen to travel from town to town. Usually the towns they visited were in such remote areas they had no local preachers to perform marriages and baptisms. These traveling clergy (of all different types of faiths) where known as “Parson Brown”. It was a label given to them as a whole.

    There is also a famous song written in 1935 that mentions Parson Brown marrying a couple while he is in town. So at least we have a reference in the correct time-frame of Fenn’s life to back up the assumption that “Brown” is a man of the cloth.

    Where would Brown call “home” then? a Church, Cathedral, Temple, etc.

    Not far (but too far to walk) from the Salt River Range is a section of the mountains known as “The Cathedral Group”. It’s about 10 miles or so up the road.

    The Cathedral Group might very well be the hoB. It is, so to speak, a church in the mountains.

    The Canyon

    Just below the hoB is a road that takes you to a dead end. This is the Death Canyon Trailhead

    My Canyon is Death Canyon. It makes sense to me that this canyon fits very well with the purpose of the poem and with the first stanza.


    Stanza 3

    This is where it gets a little tricky. Do we actually go down in the canyon, or do we take the trail to the canyon?

    “From there it is no place for the meek”

    If you continue down the trail, keeping to the rim of the canyon, you come to a point where you have to make a decision. Go left to Mt. Meek, or go right.

    If you go left, you will also be in close proximity to RimRock Lake.

    Rim – High
    Rock – Heavy
    Lake – Water

    Up your creek – at this point you have a tough decision to make – left or right?

    IMO – going left is bringing you to the end (a dead-end), as it is no place for the meek (Mt. Meek). If you go this way you will be up the creek without a paddle, and just find heavy loads and waters high (RimRock Lake).

    The confirmation to this decision is in the next stanza.


    Stanza 4

    If you’ve been wise and found the blaze

    The blaze is simply the path. It is not a “marker”

    If you take the path to the right, rather than to the left toward Mt. Meek, you will be heading toward Albright Peak.

    All Bright = wise.
    Tarry scant in Marvel gaze

    You should be able to see Mt. Thor in the distance to the north – 17 miles. Thor was a Marvel comic hero. Thor is also mentioned in the book, and Marvel comics in one of the SB.

    Go in peace

    Back to stanza 6 – listen good

    Go in peace = go Wimpys (say it out loud and listen good). They sound exactly the same orally. “Go in Peace”. “Go Wimpys”.

    Page 6 – Fenn mentions Wimpy hamburgers

    Albright Peak is also known as Wimpy’s knob.

    “Go in peace” is a common phase exchanged among church goers (of many denominations) at the end of the mass/surmon.

    Just take the chest and go Wimpys. This is the voice telling Fenn where to take the chest (it is still directional and spoken to Fenn). It is not Fenn telling us that we have found it and we should take it. So Fenn is listening to the voice telling him where to take the chest. He has not yet placed it, nor has he reached his final destination.

    So “Marvel Gaze” and “go in peace” are clues (indicators) that confirm that Albright Peak is the correct direction of travel.
    And here I leave it for you to figure out what Stanza 5 means. And also the last part of stanza 6.

    IMO – stanza 5 and 6 are the only two stanzas where Fenn is speaking to us.


    I know – I’m going to receive a lot of flack on this one, but to me it seems viable.

    So the only claim I make is that it is viable. I am not stating this is THE solution, nor am I stating that Wyoming is the correct state.

    I’m just putting parts of old solves on the blog for scrutiny.

    FYI – I reserve the right to correct spelling errors and such.

    Scott W

    • HOB might also be a meadow.
      Winter Wondeland
      ‘In the meadow we can build a snowman then pretend that he is Parson Brown’

      • True. Now if I can just find a meadow that relates to Brown….

        The whole idea is Parson Brown. Brown just happens to be in a popular song from the proper era. The song has nothing to do with it. The song is just a common knowledge confirmation that Brown might be a preacher.

        I could have just as easily left this bit of information out (the song), and the poem still fits to common knowledge from the time.

        The defense rests on this part of the solve. Brown is a clergyman. 🙂

        BTW – I’m doing something I typically don’t do. I’m adding little smiley face icons so no one thinks I am getting irritated or upset when I defend my post.

        All is happy – all is good. I’m playing for funsies.

        All of the above is the speculation and guess work of an obsessed man who just doesn’t have anything better to do at night. <—- that's a long way of saying "IMO".

        Scott W.

        • no smiley face needed. Your nature is evident and not an angry fellow and no need to defend your solve, I actually prefer your take on the cathedral avenue. Just tossing out additional ideas.

          I have a partial solve that had different streams woven throughout the poem involving the alter/church. I tried to make for instance wedding weave itself through out the verses. Also birth/baptism and eulogy.

          So many ways to approach this poem, there is a key that would show the way…I hope.

      • I like Uken’s snowman, fits my “selvage” area which sorta sidles up to Q1’s area.

        But first, a word association — bold / bald / hat / CROWN.

        When Fenn wrote that he never “fell flat on my face” (pg 94) … his face-fall led me to thoughts about mountain faces, then naturally to the Rocky Mt. Front and Eric Sloane’s forte, the weather. The Rocky Mt. Front blocks warm air from moving up from the Gulf of Mexico, thus causing violent & wet weather. Tornado Alley starts at the Rocky Mt. Front. The Montana section is known as the CROWN of the Continent Ecosystem. Could the Crown be the WWWH?

        If not the Montana Crown, how about the Wyoming section? Using the book and the poem: It’s below a left thumb – Thumb Lake. Remember Philly was under a pilot’s left thumb? And it’s along the WY border or ‘selvage’. The word ‘list’, cut from listen, means selvage. Find an aerial shot south of the Tetons, …. It really looks like a rumpled selvage edge.

        Yes, its air that’s warm. But the snowpack (the water) is passive until it halts its passivity and becomes activated by the warm air (evaporation), so, in non-tricky parlance, it’s where warmed waters halt their frozen state.

        Well, if the RMF is the WWWH, its front face is on the east side. And the word association might be salvageable for other applications… Crown / corona / arc + + + + +.

        • I’ve never made those associations – bold/hat/bald/Crown, but I have been tweaked by “Thumb”.

          For the longest time, and I mean too much time, I tried to MAKE something fit with the Thumb story.

          I started thinking about Green Thumb, Brown Thumb, and … there it was – West Thumb.

          I noticed that Riddle Lake was just below West Thumb (my BROWN thumb at the time).

          As I have stated before, I can pretty much make any single place on the planet fit the poem it I try hard enough, and stretch the poem far enough.

          I’m not saying you did either of those, but your mention of “Thumb” reminded me of a long lost attempt at a solve.

          Scott W.

        • OS2,
          I will grab a Corona before I review your message. More there than I caught at first look.

          You speak of ‘selvage’ a good bit so you may appreciate another related connection to fabric and its definition: Your effort ’twill’

          Twill is cloth, usually cotton, that is woven in a way which produces ‘parallel sloping lines’ across it.

        • OS2,
          I too have a warm waters halt similar to yours. A place where warmth waters ice(melts). I connected this with the Continental Divide, specifically the Triple Peak.

    • Scott,

      What I find interesting is, not the solve itself, but the connections to the connections. What I mean is, you seem to see beyond a single meaning of a word, line, sentence etc. Your example: go In peace does just that… The marvel and Thor… wise… etc. bring to AlBright peak. [ not that I agree with it ] What I like is the thought process that continues pass the poem as only single hints, clues, or understandings. You flow continuous in your thought process.

      IMO, it doesn’t matter if a searcher solve is step by step, point by point, a single location, description, journey, story… It seems to me to understand the poem, it needs to be read in a way that make sense as whole and not just pinpoints. Yes, we are looking for 9 clues, yet are they just points we are looking for, or a connection to why the poem was written in the first place? There is a reason FF first thought of this spot, and imo there is a reason the poem [ for lack of a better term ] displays that location.

      • Seeker,

        Thanks for the kind words. I’ve learned a lot corresponding with you and reading your posts.

        As you know, I never care if anyone agrees with me. I might bounce back a response or two in defense or for further discussion. It’s all about the discussion.

        I’m just throwing the pasta against the wall to see if it sticks – look it up if you you don’t know what that means. I learned it from a five-foot-three, feisty, Italian woman whom I married.

        Anyway, I’m doing my best to open my mind to think in ways that are not necessarily linear in approach. It is difficult to do so with this poem, but I am trying.

        Scott W

    • Scott,

      Sorry that I’m a bit late to the party on this post but I was out of town.

      Overall I like what you’ve done and while I agree with Seeker that this has a good thought “flow” to it, I wonder if it wouldn’t be advised to apply a couple of litmus tests. Here’s a couple of observations;

      As we all know F has told us not to “mess with the poem”. So when you substitute SALT for HALT because of the similar sound, don’t you think that you have altered the poem from its original form? Is this fundamentally any different from the folks that look at “gone” and see “G one” and assume the number 1 is involved? If you could arrive a SALT via some other association or method I would say that’s fair but to simply create a substitution raises a red flag in my mind. I agree that the “listen good” phrase is probably important but I would question if this is what the intent relates to.

      Also, we have the quote: “And at the end, the one who finds the gold will not feel lucky, but instead, will ask himself, ”what took me so long?””

      To me, this quote implies that the answer will seem simple to the solver (and perhaps everyone) once we know the answer. Kind of like the answer to a riddle….what’s black and white and read/red all over? Oh yeah a newspaper….I should have figured that out. So I would ask you to think about how you perceive this line of thinking. Is this something we all should have gotten long ago or is it a little bit complex and does it only make sense to you? Does it have that head-slapping Duh factor?

    • I haven’t been to look. I’m pretty sure that no one will be able to figure out stanza 5 and the last part of stanza 6 before winter comes, so I’m not too worried.

      If it is there and someone finds it, I’m OK with that outcome.

      Scott W

      • Scott I wouldn’t be too sure of that, I’m beginning to think that he buried it directly below a large white slab. I think heavy earth equipment is necessary, that would take more than one man or woman. A club of scrabble players will probably solve this “puzzle” they could afford a back hoe.

        • My theory is “heavy loads” “effort” refers to the process of concealment. If it is in a national park a group could probably bribe park officials or something “brave”

        • I like the avatar. Good choice of background color for posting on this blog.

          I do have to heavily disagree with you regarding the need for earth moving equipment.

          Needing such equipment would make it a little difficult for him to throw himself on top of the chest during his last moment.


          Scot W

          • @ Scott

            Did he mean on as in physically touching it or just over the area?

            Sir, just because I haven’t said the treasure is buried doesn’t mean it isn’t. Reminds me of the old axiom, “Just because you’re paranoid doesn’t mean they’re not after you.” I just don’t want to reveal that as a clue. I hear there is a guy up near the John Dunn Bridge using a bull dozer.


        • Pi, check out the Tab labeled “Cheat Sheet”.
          It’s a good resource for many things, among them is the statement, “it’s not associated with a structure.”

  126. Come spring, I don’t think you will get much sleep…. you have to scratch that kind of itch. Good thinking (not quite convincing) but I do feel the mental footwork. Maybe that final bit will convince. Go get it. Good Luck.

    • Thanks OS2.

      We’ve seen so many solves that looked to be the right one; at least to the owner of the solve.

      Let’s face it – there is about a 1/100000000 chance I am even close, and about a 1/10000000000000 chance I have more than two clues correct.

      In regard to you coment that it is not “quite convincing”:

      To make it more convincing I would have to go down every little avenue in the “line-of-thinking” of my approach.

      For me do do that I would have to charge $10 on Amazon, and I figured everyone would be much more content getting the abridged version for free. 🙂

      Scott W

      • Appreciate it. Thanks. I’ll use my imagination, and trust from your past posts that you do good work.