The Nine Clues…….Part Fiftyseven



This is the place to discuss the nine clues…For instance:
What are the nine clues…
Is the first clue “Begin it where warm waters halt” ?

421 thoughts on “The Nine Clues…….Part Fiftyseven

  1. Cynthia, please contact me via my e-mail…or leave me yours with Dal, I NEED to speak to you regarding your conversation with Chamay, I had a similar phone conversation with her…

    • For those in the know, Can you tell me if the clues are in consecutive order in the poem? Must a person distinguish the clues and then put them in the proper order? I am not really interested in an opinion would just like to know if Mr. Fenn ever clarified this.
      Thank You,

      • JL,

        Here are a couple of quotes from Fenn related to that topic:

        “Mysterious Writing Featured questions, Dec 2014
        Dear Mr. Fenn,
        You say the clues in the poem are to be followed in consecutive order. You have also said the book holds sublte hints. Are these ‘subtle hints’ in consecutive order (in relation to how they help with clues in the poem) too? ~ Thank you, joseph
        That’s right joseph, you should start with the first clue and follow the others consecutively to the treasure. Hints in the book are not that organized.f”


        The Lorene Mills Report from Santa Fe May 2011:

        Minute 27: “There are nine clues in the poem and they are in consecutive order…”

        • Colokid,
          Thank you! I have looked for that info for more hrs then I care to disclose. Much appreciated.

          • I also read somewhere that FF said that he is surprised that searchers are not picking up on one “key word” in the poem. Has anyone else heard that? or, have ideas on what “the word” is?

            Glad you put this up, Dal. I’ve been looking, for some time, for a summarization of facts on search, clues, etc.

        • Everyone needs to Google the number nine. It is very mystical, stands for knowledge and tons of other things, like emotions, that f displays in totc! It’s interesting reading!

  2. Goofy – I was late in responding to your question to me on the previous Nine Clues page. Here it is:

    1. I believe you misquoted Fenn when you said, “All we need is the poem.” I think what he actually said was “Everything you need to find the treasure is in the poem.” That subtle distinction is, IMO, important. And if you think about it, it is unlikely the quote you gave could make sense. The poem is written so vaguely and there are so many possible interpretations (as evidenced by all the people that were sure they’d solved it) that the person that actually solved the poem could no more “move with confidence” than one of the other “solvers”. Without corroborating hints, there’s no way that the poem alone could instill such confidence.

    2. You said, “he also states in the poem he is going to give hints.” That is your interpretation of that line of the poem. It is not the only one and if you’re being consistent, you should have said IMO on that one.

    3. I think he has settled the cemetery vs. graveyard dispute and clearly stated that the treasure location is somewhere on the TFTW map.

    4. The one thing you said that I most agree with is that there are very few things we can count as fact.

    • I see what you mean Spoon……so I stand corrected.

      Do you agree with the items I’ve listed on the cheat sheet under the heading “What we are taking as fact:”

      • The only one I would nitpick about would be “Not in an outhouse”. That’s not exactly what he said (he said “No need to dig up the old outhouses – which could literally mean that it’s in an outhouse but no digging is required), and who knows what “not associated with any structure” means. At the atomic level, the whole universe has a degree of structure to it, so I always saw that was one of his more clumsy clues. He also said it was not in a tunnel, so that would be a good addition.

        In general I think we need to be careful to take the things he said exactly as he said them. He spent 15 years writing a 24-line poem. I for one believe that word precision is important to this crazy quest.

        • I agree Spoon. We all seem to interpret Forrest’s “clues” and “hints” differently so it’s important to state precisely just what he says so we can make up our own minds what it means to each of us and our solves.

        • Spoon you have a point…..but using your reasoning we could read his statement to mean it’s OK to dig up “new” outhouses.

          I think his “not associated with a structure” in the same clue (#11) confirms it’s not in an outhouse, old or new. So I’m going to leave that one.

          I did put an item under “Subjective information:” about what “associated” means.

          Thanks for reminding me, I was going to add the tunnel, mine clue…..Does anyone have the exact quote?

          • I have seen it in several interviews. One is the 7/27/15 CBS “Sunday Morning” (@ 3:37). Also has Valery Plame in that interview. jj

          • Thanks Joseph; I realized I already had it on the cheat sheet and the source noted after I asked that question.

            The secret of happiness is to have a bad memory. 🙂

          • Goof – I’m glad you get my point. Like you, I have no intentions of looking in an outhouse, but if you want to get technical about it, his words don’t necessarily rule it out. Even his statement that it was north of Santa Fe was not clear-cut until he specified Santa Fe, NM, because there is a Santa Fe in Argentina, Bolivia, Panama, etc.

            After almost six years and a lot of searching, it makes sense to ask ourselves if he may have fooled us in some ways.

            By the way, the “not in a tunnel” comment came out after the CBS Sunday Morning segment. It may have been on that radio broadcast from Santa Fe recently. Dal was there; he should know.

          • Only five years Spooner..TTOTC came out in the fall of 2010. So folks have had the poem in their hands for five years…

          • Thanks for the correction, Dal. I’ve never been sure when his book was first published. Was that after the poem was released?

          • Spoon-
            The book came out in September 2010 at just about the same time that he added the “Chase” section to his website including the poem. The first book signing was at CW Bookstore in October.

          • Spoon..
            Stephanie pointed out to me that I am mistaken in my note above to you..
            Forrest’s website did not have the poem or other chase related resources until 2011..
            I though she was wrong but clearly I am the one that was wrong. You can see by looking in the Internet Wayback Archive that Forrest’s website had no mention of the chase in the fall of 2010. That material does not show up until much later…
            Thanks Stephanie…

            So now I am left wondering where I heard about the chase in the fall of 2010…
            Perhaps I heard about it from Crayton…because I know I spent the winter of 2010-11 trying to figure out the clues in the poem and I know that I had a solution ready to go in May of 2011 when I headed to New Mexico with Tom and we traversed a heck of a lot of territory around the confluence of the Red River and the Rio Grande…
            When that turned up nothing we moved up the Red River to investigate and then over toward the Jemez…We spent a week chugging around…and it was cold and snowy…
            We had a blast but we saw no sign of a blaze that we could believe in…

          • Dal we know Forrest had the idea for hidding the chest for a long time but when did he decide to name the book?

          • Thanks Dal. And thanks again to you and Goof for hosting this blog. A thankless job if there ever was one.

          • Goofy, I personally agree with your way of thinking. Without getting too subjective with what he could have meant, the solve is difficult enough by generally accepting what FF said in the usual interpreted manner. I don’t think he is answering those types of questions by purposely throwing us off course with and obscure way to interpret what he said to actually include what he was basically excluding. Also, much of his help goes to safety and good citizenship issues. Now, the solve is hard enough looking at things that was. Even if I new the exact 9 clues and I had 2 choices per clue I’d have 2^9 = 512 different solve solutions. For me that is more than I can work with. If the clues point to something even more obscure (obscure might not be the correct word, what I mean is that a clue can be difficult, but once it is solved it needs to have near full buy in from those that would hear it, some folks offer up stuff that seems really out there and after hear it your not too convinced it matches the clue very nicely) than I can live without have gone down those roads. Thanks.

          • That was when my wife told me about the chase; winter 2010-11. She got the book from one of her friends. I don’t know how her friend found out about the chase.

            I was a little surprised there wasn’t much available online about the chase at the time. Seems like it wasn’t until Margie Goldsmith, the New York marketing guru, started marketing the chase in the fall of 2011 that it took off. Fenn added the Thrill Resource page and Dal and a few other bloggers started blogs and the rest is history.

            A couple years ago I started doing a timeline about the chase, it fell by the wayside as I was busy and while interesting I didn’t think it would help me find the chest.

      • I would love to edit my typos in that last post. Henceforth, I’ll spend more time getting it right the first time. I hope my general point came across in spite of the mistakes.

    • Spoon,

      Actually it is not a misquote, and it can be found right here on this site.

      “Dear Mr. Fenn,
      We are a group of avid elderly bridge players in San Diego who after reading your book hope to find your treasure. We are not into poetry as much as the memoir. We realize the clues are in the poem, but were wondering if there isn’t at least one clue in each chapter.
      Thank you for a great book. Sincerely, Emily,
      Forrest’s succinct response:Emily,
      All of the information you need to find the treasure is in the poem. The chapters in my book have very subtle hints but are not deliberately placed to aid the seeker. Good luck in the search. f”
      “All of the information you need to find the treasure is in the poem.”

      Yes fenn has made other comments and worded it differently, Yet there it is.

      • Hi Seeker – thanks for the reference. I know people will disagree, but I actually think you’re making my point for me. Saying “all the information you need is in the poem” is not the same as saying “all you need is the poem”. I read his statements to mean that a correct interpretation of the poem can lead someone to the treasure. But in practicality, IMO, one cannot come to that correct interpretation of the poem – confidently – without using other information. That is simply because the poem, in isolation, lends itself to so many different possible interpretations.

          • Thanks for the support, special. Since you “get it”, I’ll have to keep an eye on you now….

          • Spoon, I’ve been trying to say this in many different ways for the past two years. Any way, ever since my perfect solution using a dam.

            Success on your hunts! 🙂

        • Hi Spoon — just my take on the poem’s vagueness (or generality if you prefer): I think it’s perfectly possible that Fenn intended the poem to contain all the information he felt was necessary to find the treasure chest. He makes certain reasonable assumptions about would-be treasure chest hunters: for instance, that they can read and understand English and appreciate its nuisances. He makes no attempt to teach geography, map reading, orienteering or basic survival skills in the wild. If people want to have a hope of finding the treasure, they’re obviously going to need maps, and to do some research.

          I think of the poem like a game of 20 questions (or in this case 9): no answer to a single question gives you the solution; it is the intersection of the collective answers that is designed to single out one location. That the treasure hasn’t been found yet probably just means that no one has the right 9 interpretations of the right 9 clues.

          So do you “need” TTOTC? Fenn’s answer would almost certainly be “no”. Is the book helpful? Sure! It gives you background on Fenn that the poem doesn’t provide, and that will help steer you away from some poor solutions. For instance, there is nothing in the poem that tells you that Forrest intended the hiding place to last as long as a thousand years. That little tidbit rules out a lot of ephemeral real estate.

          • Zap,
            I like your observations and agree.

            LouLee just commented that Fenn told her “You don’t need the book, but it might be helpful”.

            Very interesting.

      • Seeker, Guess that depends on which FennSpeak you choose to believe. Fenn contradicts himself on several occasions. I won’t verbalize on a common logical extension of self-contradiction because the censor might nuke me, but its sorta like when Forrest looked up to Skippy, but couldn’t look down on June because father wouldn’t allow it… even though that was a logical progression. Insight is in the exceptions.
        I just think that stamping my foot and saying ‘No, I won’t look there’ is a good searching technique. IMO

      • Ok guys I hear what your saying. My thought is… yes of course we need to look things up. I surely don’t recall all I was taught and told or know about areas we are told the chest lays in wait.

        The overall aspect of ~ all in the poem ~ all you need is the poem ~ information is in the poem… says to me that no NEEDED [ I emphasis ] for us to solve the poem. Maybe a better way of looking at it is… we all need refresher course for our lack of knowledge. The one serious question we all have to ask at some point is, Can the poem be solved with the information it holds? I say Yes. and fenn’s comments seem to lean to that conclusion.

        • Seeker,

          Great comment. I would say that a refresher is needed to keep pace with time. It certainly doesn’t hurt to visit the past to keep up to date. Fenn’s comments should be highly regarded to find the proper solution.


    • Spoon,
      You said:
      “And if you think about it, it is unlikely the quote you gave could make sense. The poem is written so vaguely and there are so many possible interpretations (as evidenced by all the people that were sure they’d solved it) that the person that actually solved the poem could no more “move with confidence” than one of the other “solvers”. Without corroborating hints, there’s no way that the poem alone could instill such confidence.”

      Like the investment companies like to point out: current performance is not an indication of future performance. So just because no one has found the TC or solved the poem does not mean it is: “vague” or “evidence” that it can’t be solved on it’s own.

      • COLOKID-

        You seem to always counter peoples solve.
        Ask me this then since you know.

        Have you found it, I think not.

        your just as informed as the rest of us , regardless of others find or postings. Let people have fun , instead of pointing out what you think is wrong in there quest.

        • Kevinp,

          What is wrong with commenting on another post, with your perspective. Isn’t that one of the reason for posting at all…especially on a thread topic of 9 clues to get feed back, critical, helpful, for or against? I think most have fun with a little constructive criticism and see it has helpful.

          Your comment sounds like we should stop commenting on another poster comment unless we sprinkle it with sunshine and daisies and just all agree. That is not a discussion of different opinion and interpretations… that’s a Sunday picnic. Pass the potatoes salad, please.

          • Seeker

            One should not blame another ones finding or solve, unless you have the CHEST in hand.

            And i think we can all agree neither you or Kool-Aid-Kid have.

            best of luck

          • Seeker,
            Absolutely nothing wrong, this is only directed to colokid, because most or ALL of his comments are about telling people they are wrong, and i guarantee he has no more knowledge to the hiding spot then anyone else does.

            Its not what you say its how you say it.

          • We’re talking about a poem and the challenge involve to understand it. It’s that simple… I don’t see what you’re complaining about, other than you’re taking too personally, what was not even stated to you to start with.

            And it is always the same line when someone doesn’t like what they hear… Unless you have the chest in your hand you shouldn’t be saying anything… Sorry bud, that is getting old.

      • I agree – I meant to say that on the surface it is vague and lends itself to many potential solutions.

        • Thx- I call it like it is, way to many -comments to others about what they think is the solve. This is to be fun for everyone regardless if they are correct or not.


          • Well Kevin,
            Sorry you don’t like my comments but as you said, I tend to “call it like it is” too. If you’re not having fun and trying to learn something then why are you here?

            Some folks solves are obviously ridiculous (e.g. White Knight, Holly) so I won’t apologize for criticizing them openly, but most of the time I’m just tying to give people things to consider and trying to clear up miss-quotes.

            If peoples ideas can’t stand up to a little scrutiny then perhaps they shouldn’t post. That’s why scientists publish peer reviewed journal articles…..their theory’s have to stand up to the collective knowledge base and make sense.

            You aren’t under any obligation to read my posts if I bother you.

          • Colokid,

            So is a peer review taking a second peek? 🙂

            Seriously, that is so apropos to what is happening here on Dal’s blog site. You nailed it – spot on – thanx!

    • i only found out about Forrest Fenn and his hidden treasure approx. a month ago , trying to catch up on this blog.. i agree totally , what you said , ‘the poem is written so vaguely’ , told a friend , those exact words…thank you for your postings …

    • Spoon, I don’t agree with a lot of what you said in your number 1) above but that’s just my opinion. I don’t think the poem is that vague where you need collaborating hints from outside the poem. Sure they would help but the searcher that finds the tc can move with confidence from what’s in the poem.

      • I once knew a woman that sold art for a living. She had a phrase I liked which she used to sum up people’s differences of opinion about art. She would say, “That’s what makes horse racing.” I view Master Fenn’s work as a piece of art, and so I think this saying is apropos.

    • colokid-

      Once again you post negative comments about anyone who has a solve, Or has a comment , I believe you thrive off negativity and try to make your self look better then you are.

      Again let people have fun instead of replying to every comment about what people have to say about their findings or solve

      relax buddy-

      • LOL Kevin,

        Hope you don’t take this “negatively” but your beef seems pretty general and non-specific. I’m clearing not replying to every comment.

        Care to tell me specifically what comment you are referring to or give me an example of what’s bothering you? (Smiley face, smiley face)

        • I”m glad this is all staying so focused on “The Nine Clues”. And not leading off to a bunch of nonsense.

  3. Present too, go check out the Moon tonight. i am going to make a wish and read the poem once again. You don’t need the book.

    • Lou Lee,

      Has much as I agree ” you don’t need the book” and folks like to peg me as a poem purist because of that. I wouldn’t word it as such. Something is better then nothing line of thinking, if you will.
      I don’t believe there is a solid must needed “clue” in the book and without it the poem can’t be solved… Yet I do see important information or maybe a better way of saying, insight, within the book.

      We as readers need to use the information we know of personally and what the Author as give us to work with. Fenn can’t read our mind anymore than we can read his. He can’t know our knowledge and understandings, but he gave us an insight to his. That alone is helpful, and what we do with it is truly unknown. Folks keep using the term vague in reference to the poem. I can see their conclusion and see why they say it. Most are looking for very specific points, and when they can see those one meaning points of locations, they go to anything and everything to see what might fit.

      IMO, the poem is much more overall in perspective. I see locations, yet they are not pin points, I see the poem showing me an overall area and still brings me to a spot. Another searcher use the term “Funnel” which, again IMO, works well in reading the poem. The cheat sheet that Goofy came up with has a lot of information and is useful because it is in one location, and yet again it is what we do with that is unknown as well. I think most of what we have been told and know to date doesn’t make any sense till you have an understanding of the poem itself… Then you’ll see thing fall into a better perspective overall.

      Just my thoughts, helpful or not, just thought my thoughts.

      • Hi Seeker! So I forgot to say IMO, But I should not have too. Because forrest said to me ” You don’t need the book, but it might be helpful” FYI people……I just think if you go by the book IMO, now……..You might get a little lost.

        • Hi Lou Lee,
          I’m curious about what fenn told you: ” You don’t need the book, but it might be helpful”.

          Would you be willing to elaborate on the circumstances surrounding that statement (when, where, context)?

          • Hi Colokid, Yes it was in a email from him. I ask him if I needed the book. It was maybe early 2013. I will search my emails. Money was tight back than and I did not want to spend the $. I was searching without the book. Than.

            Lou Lee Belle

          • Thanks Lou Lee,

            If you find it and would be willing to post that it would be very interesting to some of us that believe the poem is all you need.

  4. I’m curious, do you guys think the hidey spot has been compromised by the new clue information being passed along by some searchers? I’m not very savy, so sometimes I have a hard time determing fact from fiction on the blog.

    • Fins it’s good to be very careful about what you read on the blogs. That’s one of the reasons we want folks to state “IMO” in their comments because some searchers sound like they are quoting facts.

      Everyone should do their own research and make their own determinations reading or listening to the source material in context.

      • Thanks for the reply, Goofy.I can tell by the career politican response you gave me I probably shouldn’t have even asked the question.I apologize if I overstepped in asking that.

        • I personally don’t think it’s been compromised and it’s hard to determine what is fact or not. The IMO from the start helps stop a grapevine effect from starting in the first place.

          IMO some just like the spot light and lose sense on the real meaning of the chase

        • HA! I’ve never been called a politician before……next thing you know I’ll drop into the dark depths of being politically correct. 🙂 Anyway, I stand by the statement. I think it’s good advice.

          I would like to apologize, I should have asked what “new clue” information you’re talking about. I wasn’t trying to brush off your comment.

          So tell me what new clue information you’re talking about and I’ll comment on it.

          • LOL

            Goofy for President… well he does has the wee gee mouse pad, already has the white house pet, and look at the competition, Clinton and Trump.
            Goofy could you tell us your stand of treasure found on Public land should be taxable? You may just sway my vote…

          • If it pleases the blog can my question be stricken from the record? Upon further review I think I just stepped in it, and at this point I just want to backtrack out of it 😀 thanks.

  5. Hello fellow treasure seekers I have been following and researching the chase for almost 3 years but have yet to actually comment on the blogs myself. I was wondering what others perspectives are on the subtle hints that forrest says are sprinkled in his TOTC book. How subtle are they?

    • Hi Lurker, er, sommer1980, 😉

      I think a good example of subtle “things people think may be hints” is Forrest’s attachment to the area around Yellowstone. It isn’t a clue, and needs to be tortured a bit to even make the “hint parade”, but I hang my hat on it.

      Welcome into the light.

      • So do you think the hints are just in TTOTC book? Or also sprinkled in the TFTW book too? Besides the map.

    • Imo not so subtle. They lead you to the correct beginning like ff said. How do you know that you found a few of the hints? Cause they have a way of overlapping each other and there’s your beginning area.

  6. Has anyone tried to fold the pages of TTOC with the pictures or the drawings in the book? Or even the pages with print to see if a clue pops out? Kinda like the old MAD magazines of yore?

  7. I don’t ant this to get list in the blog: To level the playing field and be fair to all searchers, Charmay should announce this insider information (that tidbit of information) publicly. IMO. This reminds me of an IPO where information is released to one or more people and not to everyone.

    • Rose you posted the same comment on the Tsawari page…..if folks want to reply that’s where it should be not here.

      • @Goofy, since this was a hint to a possible solve, I thought it should be here too. Especially, since Michael D. also commented about Charmay too. But, any further comments will be put on the Tsawari page. The comment is not identical, there’s more information there.

    • Sure lets make her tell… Why we’re at it, lets start putting searchers on the stand and have them swear an oath, maybe kidnap Goofy”s weegee mouse pad and hold it for ransom till he tells all.
      Or we can just wait for another late breaking, mind blowing, game changing… I think I know something one else knows comment.

      Are we really at that point? I mean seriously? I’ll just wait for the memo to be posted by the water cooler in the break-room.

      • I’m not believing anything I read or hear until it’s confirmed by, Seekers bridge club.

        • Let have another look… was your name mentioned? I posted a general comment about a post on a blog, One that is opened to the public and allows replies. If you wish not to have others post their own views, on the same blog… maybe you can put up a disclaimer. ” This post is just so I can say what I want with no others commenting… please don’t respond.”

          • @Seeker,
            It was obvious where the comment was directed. I don’t know you and you don’t know me. I don’t want language with that tone and type from you.

          • Tone? Ok Rose. I’m not the one who is going to multiple threads demanding some kinda fairness you fell that ~ another searcher who was told by another person, that a conversation in 1977 should be told to all, because you feel it is a must to level a playing field of a treasure hunt.

            Realistically, has this so called insider information produced the finding of the chest? But I’ll say now, just to make you feel better, I will not respond to a posting you place on any public discussion blog.

            Hope that works for you.

          • Don’t want to interrupt seeker/Rose debate…but…
            To clear the Charmay info question, if Cindy finds it, well, there’s your sign.
            《Imo/directed at no one in specific/no rebuttal necessary…just my 2cents.》
            ☆ imo, the 9 clues will lead you to Indulgence, the hints in the book may or may not help. I’m starting at the beginning again, and using the knowledge I’ve gained…in NM!

  8. Hi all,

    Does anyone see a reference to longitude in the poem? I’m trying to clear up some murky thoughts.



  9. Okie-Dokie, “Nine Clues” right? I do enjoy the banter, but can we get down to business (just being sassy, no harm meant.) Sooo…IMO:

    > Hints in the book are relatively unintentional and not in any order.
    > Forrest was asked if the location of his hidden chest was there before he was born and he gave a somewhat vague answer (imagine that!)
    > Searchers/Commentators have speculated on many human structures, but that seems to have been contradicted.

    >My solve is that the chest is in an alcove – a place where ancient artifacts may have lain in the open, Forrest’s body would not be disturbed, it is open to the elements, not in a structure, might be there for another thousand years…

    What say ye?

    • WisconsinMike: I tend to agree. In Scrapbook 78, FF said:

      “Second, I have not said that a searcher was closer than 12’ from the treasure. It is not likely that anyone would get that close and not find it.”

      I interpret this statement to mean that the treasure is probably not buried or elaborately “hidden” if it would likely be found if one got within 12′. Alcove, ledge, stone overhang, natural platform, cozy rock formation or similar place are all on my list. The image that comes to mind is a nice spot where one would relax while in the wood– a place where you would feel safe enough to take a nap if you fell asleep daydreaming….

  10. Just to put everyone’s mind at ease…did you know that Robert Redford narrated a documentary called “The Mystery of Chaco Canyon” in 2003?? Like I said, its OFF THE MAP!!

    • Yes, I have a copy of that video. OK, that is what you were told. I do not know what Cynthia was told or who knows what how many other insiders were told. So, that does not put the issue to rest for me. I guess the issue can be skirted by saying that there is a right to give insider help to certain folks. That is true, but it seems to me that puts an end to previous stated concerns regarding an even playing field. Assuming you were told Chaco Canyon, and I do not doubt your veracity, what is the point of having folks close to Mr. Fenn steering searchers in the wrong direction as you were mislead. I would think that Mr. Fenn would take offense to this and put an end to it, and let it be known to his loyal followers (I am one of them) that he has taken action to prevent his from reoccurring.

      • Charmay has dementia, and the conversation she had with Forrest was 41 yrs ago…give her, and yourselves a break. Life ain’t fair. And I am not an INSIDER. I live in Boise, ID and have never even met Mr. Fenn. I got my information through good old fashioned detective work, and I’ll be darned if I’m going to share all I have found over the last four years with some whiney self entitled flatlanders that probably haven’t even been in the Chase for real, or know what it even means to research. If you people spent half as much time thinking and acting on those thoughts as you do gabbing about “level playing fields” you’d probably be closer to indulgence. Give it a rest!! I have shared what was said, and you may feel free to pursue it if you like, but please stop making it Forrest’s problem that some of us actually get up off our duff’s and TRY to find out information. I have spoken to over a dozen of FF’s friends, and a few of his enemies too. How? Well, let’s just say I got a brain and I use it. Why? To get opinions if they are willing to share them…This is a forum for ideas and conversations between fellow searchers, it is not a clearinghouse of public information, or a library where all you need is a password to find your data. Now, when I find info I believe is relevant, I share it…just read Dal’s blog and it will become clear to you that I don’t hold much back. My mouth overloads my Ars sometimes, but I am an honest person. AND…If you have been offended by this message…then it must fit your profile pretty darn well…CASE CLOSED PEOPLE

        • No offense intended Michael. I do not seek any free or inside info, nor did I ask for any. My usage of the level playing field came from Mr. Fenn, who I have the greatest respect for. I am very sorry to hear that the lady has dementia. My mother died from dementia. It is easy to conclude that you are an insider when you have had telephone conversations with Charmay. You say that you are not. Your word is good for me. I am not being whiney, I was expressing my opinion. I made it very clear that I did not doubt your veracity. You might think that this is not my business. However, it is the business of all searchers who have spent time and money enjoying the TTOTC. I believe Mr. Fenn to be a man of the highest integrity. I have a special place in my heart for those who have served their country during time of war as he has. I do not in any way doubt his veracity or his good intentions regarding the Chase. That is why I said what I did. I do not believe that he would condone people who are known to be close to him sharing information that in effect negates a lot of his efforts to provide an awesome experience for his followers on a level playing field that he has expressed is important to him. I am sorry if you find offense in the fact that I believe in Mr. Fenn and his dream of the Chase.

          Good luck in your searches. Thank you for your clarification.

          • This should be the end of this argument and of the name calling and accusations and whining on this topic. Move past it please. New comments about Charmay or this topic will find the comment deleted and the commenter placed in moderation.

        • I for one have respect for you and Cynthia finding a way to get the information you have. The issue I think most have is that the information was given. Not that it was given in malice, but if it’s the spot then that would be a deflating result for it to be spoiled in such a way without figuring out the intended direction.

  11. Goofy,
    You asked about your Cheat Sheet; I reviewed it, and found it (IMO) spot on.
    The only quibble I might make is that the map in TFTW, while referred to as a clue in some places, is (IMO) technically a hint, and not one of the nine clues.

    And someone asked for an example of a hint from TTOTC; here’s one (IMO):

    …the yellow and purple flowers flourish…

    (Or it could be a coded message to operatives in the field; sometimes it’s hard to tell the difference.)
    “Have flashlight, will travel”

    • Geoff Idaho on,
      Very nice hint (IMO), here is another. The grass sees, and the trees and the rushing waters of the spring creek also see.(IMO)


    • Goofy,
      Did I miss something? Where is your cheat sheet. Early in this thread I was happy to have found what I thought was going to be a good summary of facts and important details relating to the search. That was about an hour ago. You can insult me if you like (I think there’s been enough of that already) but I have yet to see it. As I am thankful for everyone’s input, I was hoping for something a little more informative, or at least, more relative to the title of the thread.

  12. What are the nine clues? I think they are:
    1. riches new and old, 2. Warm waters halt 3. Too far to walk and alone in there 4. the home of Brown, 5. creek without a paddle and heavy loads on high, 6. no place for the meek and listen all and listen good 7. tarry scant and marvel gaze. 8. brave and in the wood. 9. The blaze

  13. Seeker

    Always good comments from you and right on! One of the best posters on this blog.

    Why did FF write in his book and talk about “hints”? And he defined that as “hints help you with the clues”. They may be fringe hints but when you have your solve you will recognize some of them and they will give you confidence.

    I have been at this over 3 years and 9 chases over all 4 states. I’m going again this week or next for one last look at my most current (and confident) solve. And yes there are hints in TTOTC and maybe a couple in TFTW IMO.

    No one should ever tell another searcher he/she is right or wrong and like FF said when my opponent is making a mistake I’m not going to help him. Take the above with a grain of gold because so far I don’t have the t/c either.

    • JC,

      First, Thanks for the generous comment.

      Oh brother…hints and clues, honestly a thorn in my side to attempt to see or understand what is what. I have come to my own conclusion that when the poem starts to make sense to me those will present themselves as confirmation, I maybe on the right track. To keep my sanity, instead of pushing what I think a clue or hint is.

      Example; Utah, Idaho and Canada gone from the area the chest lays in wait. Does that mean they are not involved in someway to understand the poem? We didn’t know for a fact that the ” mountains north of SF” was the RM’s, although it did seem an obvious conclusion. My question to the release of the RM’s later is, Was there a reason Fenn didn’t say that in the book from the beginning? Were we supposed to figure this out, and if so, for what reason? Is knowing the RM Range important to the understanding of the poem? So what is a clue to what is a hint, whether the book[s] or after the fact statements makes me wonder if there is a correlation to the poem.

      Originally I thought those were just stated to eliminate areas and still throw a bone to the searchers, but not much help. I’m not so sure now.
      Wouldn’t it be funny if, Canada is an actual clue [ in someway] that is part of the poem… even though it was eliminated from the map in TFTW. Others may say how can that be, fenn told us Canada is not a clue by not having it on the map… All that truly means is the ‘chest’ in not in Canada.

      Clues vs. hints… just shoot me now!

      • Seeker (and all seekers),

        Here’s my take on the 9 clues in the poem. If you figure out the right starting spot you can go confidently to Indulgence. Many of the things Forrest has said after the release of the book and poem are simply “duh” statements (hope I didn’t offend anyone with that). That’s because when the puzzle is solved, everything Forrest said after the original release will be found to be true, though not very helpful, if at all (notice my handle, for instance).

        I shared earlier that I am “pulling back” from the blog and not posting as much to spend time researching and studying, as well as do other things in life that need my attention. I concur with the sentiment expressed by others here lately that doing your own research and finding out information because you worked for it, or put yourself in a position to receive it, in no way obligates you to share it with anyone or everyone else on this or any other blog site. It is called “privileged information” for a reason.

        Good luck to all!

        And of course, IMO.

      • One question I’ve had since I’ve read TFTW is there is no mention of 9 clues in that book only in TTOTC, what does that really mean for “the 9 clues”? Are the 9 clues really that important or can one find the chest with most clues correctlly solve? Within the poem one could come up with more than 9 so maybe its Forrest way of not telling the whole truth.

  14. Seeker,

    Canada – Start in Alberta. – I’d recommend “Bearchild: The Life and Times of Jerry Potts” as a great pace to start.

    Lots of adventure and history in………Canada!


  15. I notice some disagreement on what are the nine clues. What are the nine clues? I think they are: 1. riches new and old, 2. Warm waters halt 3. Too far to walk and alone in there 4. the home of Brown, 5. creek without a paddle and heavy loads on high, 6. no place for the meek and listen all and listen good 7. tarry scant and marvel gaze. 8. brave and in the wood. 9. The blaze

  16. I’m not sure if this is the place to discuss this or not, if not then I apologize in advance. It could be considered an important clue. Since I only recently discovered TTOTC and started going through the interviews, one in particular caught my attention. In the interview Mr. Fenn states that if you are at the treasures location you would smell Pinyon Pines. He later says that there is one thing he wishes he had not mention but does not state what that is.

    My question is did the Pinyon Pine statement ever get clarification? Was it a slip of the tongue? Was it just a mistake or embellishment in describing the smell of pine trees. I have looked for information to clarify this statement without satisfying results and hope that maybe some of the more seasoned searchers will have this logged away somewhere.

    Thank you,

    • jl,

      You should look here:
      A story in the New Mexican tries to clear up the controversy about what Forrest says in the New Mexico Tourism promo. But it doesn’t help very much…And I swear, I never searched in Minnesota..Jeese!!

      The controversy was that Fenn said he could smell pinyon “nuts”. Later he took that back because one can’t really smell nuts.

      I think this is the quote;
      “You are right Ed, that New Mexico tourism video is getting a lot of exposure. I did not intend for my comment about pinon nuts to be a clue, and certainly no one should believe I was trying to say the treasure is hidden in New Mexico. Shame on me for saying that. f”

    • JL, I don’t know if this will help or not. When Forrest said ” I’d smell wonderful smells of pine needles or pinon nuts,sagebrush. IMO Forrest knows when you say pine needles or pinon nuts you are talking about one or the other, not both. If he was smelling both he would have said pine needles and pinon nuts. I think this was Forrest being sly.IMO

      • Louie,
        Ok that makes sense to me, what would be the one thing he wishes he had not said? Was the whole interview his design? When I watch any video of Mr. Fenn and he is asked a question he has not had time to prepare for he is very careful how he phrases his words. In the interview with the Pinyon Nuts comment it all seems so smooth and rehearsed, but it is hard to tell because the camera is not showing him as he is making these comments. Is this what you mean by ” I think this was Forrest being sly ” ? IMO He is a master at misdirection as I stated earlier. It is also IMO this is the context in which the poem is written. I do not believe for a moment it is as simple as following the clues for direction, he himself stated it is risky to not consider every word in the poem.


    • JL,

      I agree with you it may be an important clue. I think if he’d said something that were untrue or very misleading that he would have clarified it. But, if he’d slipped and gave information he didn’t mean to then he might make the statement he did. I do remember that and I was thinking it might be something else besides the pinon smell. I have not heard much discussion on this topic either.

      • Chris apparently you aren’t researching the old post. There has been extensive discussion on that topic.

        • I guess I haven’t gone that far back. I’ve only been researching for a couple weeks but thx for the info/clarification.

      • Chris,
        Agreed, but if a person can figure out the poem it is not necessary to know one way or another. I look at it that it would be a short cut only and Mr. Fenn has said there are no short cuts. It is always in the back of my mind because all of my thoughts are farther North than the Pinyon grows, it makes for a lot of second guessing on my part. It makes it hard to move with confidence. When Mr. Fenn said the person who finds the chest will move with confidence I believe he might have been trying to get us to realize all the answers are in the poem and to concentrate on the poem more than the chatter.. IMO


        • So, am I correct to say there are not any pinon trees in Yellowstone,or above Colorado? If that is true then it also may be correct to assume the tc is likely in NM.

          • No Chris I wouldn’t assume that based on that video. I’m not picking on you. You just keep saying stuff proving you haven’t done much research…….Take some time and go through the blog and make some notes. There is a lot of information here.

            You are right Ed, that New Mexico tourism video is getting a lot of exposure. I did not intend for my comment about pinon nuts to be a clue, and certainly no one should believe I was trying to say the treasure is hidden in New Mexico. Shame on me for saying that. f


          • Goofy, you’re right. I have not done a lot of research. I stumbled accidentally on this whole TTOTC thing about a week and a half ago while researching something else. Forgive me for not including the “IMO” which seems to be how most manage to avoid criticism on here. Truth is the things I’m saying (that prove I haven’t done much research) are really just some spit balling. I will make sure to “IMO” in the future if I choose to comment further.

  17. Searchers:

    BigSkip here from a place far, far away. Been quietly reading the blog and reducing the finger nails and grinding my teeth. What’s with all the bantering and bickering? Yes,a real need to keep the records straight, report “actual”comments and quotes from Master Fenn but the criticisms, distortions etc.etc. between participants is getting out of hand. “Thank You” to the managers of the blog for keeping it going under difficult personal interactions. Let’s keep it constructive. Let’s contribute/expand Goofy’s cheat sheet, let’s list all the possible “hints” and their implications. Just my opinion to better the blog.

    • I think it was just the recent full moon BigSkip, I noticed all the edginess of late too….also, the search season is coming to a close for some folks and they are restless, IMO….I sort of wanted to tell one or two posters to shut the heck up but didn’t….no nuke buttons for me…lol!

    • I couldn’t agree more BigSkip. When I first saw this thread I expected it would be informative and without a lot of the usual mumbo jumbo. In part I found it to be a bit what I was hoping but unfortunately it did seem to all too often get clogged up with negative criticisms, insults and a lot of other useless waste of cyberspace. Hopefully we can all find outlets for our frustrations and insecurities outside of this blog. I doubt these bickerings would go quite the same way in person. “IMO”

  18. Colokid,

    Yes, I believe I had found that one but to me it does not really clear my mind. It is therefore placed on the back burner and filed under misc. None of my thoughts have brought me to New Mexico or Colorado and I lived at the later for 38 years.

    It is like the pebble under your sleeping bag, it brings just enough discomfort it can not be ignored..Personally I think Mr. Fenn is very careful at what he says and though his intent would be to never deceive he is IMO a master at misdirection. He places the pebble and we do the rest.

    Thanks for your input,

    • JL,
      What about it still bothers you? Are you thinking that the nut clarification is not what he “wished he had not mentioned” or other?

      I would also point out that you can probably drive yourself “nuts” trying to read too much into everything he says.

  19. “From there its no place for meek” Searchers, I am still pondering if this is a clue? I have 3 ideas, 1) the hiding spot is within sight while you are traveling to it. 2) the end is left. 3) your in a raft or canoe (ever moving). The latter seems to tie in more with the lines around it in the poem. I don’t comment here very much but I am thank full! I will try to give more of my thoughts. Special thanks to Dal

      • Whenever I rafted (fishing Colorado rivers) Where ever we PUT IN it was never far from the PUT IN parking lot or we drove down to the river, unloaded the raft then took the car to the parking lot. All that being said if he did use a raft or canoe how did he get back to his car? Also I would have to have a lot of confidence in my canoeing skills being afraid of losing my treasure in the river!

        • And once the treasure was put in place you’d have to paddle upstream back to the put in point. Not my idea of a fun afternoon. 🙂 I don’t even enjoy portaging overland between lakes.

          I agree, the language inside the poem is a stumper.

          Good luck!

    • I currently think “no place for the meek” is an exciting water excursion, and “the end is nigh” is near the end of it, and a sign that you should begin looking for an unpaddleable creek. Once identified, you would not need to take the boat ride.

      I keep posting more and more about my solve, and no one disabuses me of its veracity.

      I believe this is because no one really pays much attention to other’s solutions. Therefore, I strongly encourage EVERYONE to post their complete, detailed solutions (preferably including 8×10 color glossy pictures with circles and arrows and a paragraph on the back of each one); or at least mail them to me:
      Joseph Jones
      4111 Burnham Dr
      Gig Harbor, WA 98332

      wink wink

      • Yeah right, JJ…nevertheless:

        it all looks self explainitory to me.
        WWWH is up at the top of Frijoles Canyon near the Valles Caldera
        Canyon Down is Frijoles Canyon. Drive to the park.
        HOB could be the ruins or the bat cave
        No place for meek, see the picture
        Also applies to drawing nigh, no paddle, water high…
        Look quickly down over falls, trail ends down there,
        Short walk, but the view is great.
        You must be brave to get over to the wood where it is hidden…there are stacks of wood along the creek.

        I won’t give much details because I don’t talk much.
        Lucky for you the pictures are worth thousands of words.

        • I think I’ll take a ride up to there to The Valles in the next week or so and check that out. I’ll be going off half cocked so to speak but why not? It’ll be fun and that’s the idea, right? I have a couple friends up there that know The Valles well and 1 is a TTOTC treasure hunter. Not that I have a solve put together or really think I’ll find anything but gotta get my feet wet sooner or later.

  20. I’ve been looking at the drawings in TFTW inside front and back covers and in the drawing just below the dog where the fishing pool is located, there is a rock. At first, I thought it was a blanket tossed in a log, but as I looked closer, it appears to be a rock with a drawing in it. The drawing looks like a person’s face. It reminds me of drawing nigh. I’ve been searching this and have been looking for a rock with a face. I thought of rock key ( Rocky). In researching more about the image, it looks like horns on the head–Diablo or devil. Maybe Diablo canyon? There’ll be no paddle up your creek. Any thoughts on this?

    • I’d like to know, more about that too. Mr. Fenn, what do you know. Can this Diablo be beaten? Scary.

      • I didn’t see water either and was thinking of sweat. I couldn’t find another face on a rock other than Magdalena mountain (End of the Trail) South of Santa Fe, which is not on the TFTW map. Magdalena seemed like a good place since there is a blaze (horse) on Kelly St. and Pie Town and Omega are to the West, but it’s not on the map.

      • Ah but Michael there is water high there. Plus my daughter and i got to meet Moses at the campground. Going to send our story to Dal this weekend.


  21. Colokid,

    I am not so sure that you could not smell Pinyon Nuts, say it was a really warm day and they were next to a cliff. Kinda like baking in the sun. I have never been around Pinyon trees or nuts so really can’t say.
    I don’t think Mr. Fenn slips up too often, but nobody is perfect. If he wishes he didn’t say one thing it could mean he made a mistake and wishes he had not said that he could smell the pinyon nuts or it could be something else he said in that interview. I agree I think lots of people dwell on what he says and think there is some sort of encryption involved when he is just making conversation. At this time it has not become an issue with my interpretation of the poem. I try to just concentrate on the words and not let the perimeter noise affect my interpretation.


  22. @anyone – I do NOT think that “in the wood” is a clue. As did some other searchers in the past, I used to think it meant that the treasure was in a woodpile or in the woods or that the Underwood typewriter in TFTW related to the treasure chest’s location actually physically being “in the wood”. A few days ago I discovered a whole different meaning for that particular phrase. It was utilized to mean aged … as in being old.

    So I considered that for awhile. “If you are brave & … old …” OLD? Well, maybe that means FF is possibly saying that those of us who are somewhat long in the tooth have a better chance of understanding the hints/clues than the younger searchers do. I do think it makes sense because the closer a searcher is to FF’s age, the more likely he/she would be to having experienced the same historical & personal events. Perhaps it means that older searchers have a leg up? Any thoughts on that?

    • Becky, yes! My grandmother told me the water bucket was “quickly down” in the well when I told her it was missing. The bucket was just a few feet down past the rim.
      (I guess all the guys are watching the world series, leaves just us girls…)

  23. He sat there smelling pine, sage and Pinyon nuts…hum. maybe he was reminiscing when he hid the treasure and popped a few nuts in his mouth. The memory came back as he was speaking and let it slip, back peddled because the area of Pinyon trees focuses in on an easily mapped area. Or maybe not.
    He let slip, (wwh) was NOT a dam, so he’s human and it happens. He then had to let everyone know.
    The question about the retracted statement is, does a searcher make a concerted effort to logically analyze the Pinyon areas on a map, or ignore the whole episode? Is a “no” worth losing Indulgence?
    Did he retract the statement, not wanting another clue out there.
    My gut feeling is telling me NOT no discount ANYTHING F says, mistake or otherwise. Subconsciously, it may not have been a mistake!
    “I did not mean for my comment about the nuts to be a clue…”f
    No one will know til it’s found. 《All IMO》
    So, I guess I’ll not worry about it…yet!

    • Donna,

      I am treating the pinon as a clue and a viable part of the areas I search. We were lucky to be in NM at the end of the harvest. Best tasting nut IMO. Roasting some tgis weekend.

  24. Elmo, i bet you could figure this out!
    I am horrible at word math probs!
    Starting in the afternoon, scientifically speaking–between noon and 5pm. F said he walked less than a”few” miles hiding the treasure, a “few” is more than 2 less than 4. So guestimating each trip is a few = 2.5ml.

    A 79 or 80yr old man leaves his car carrying 20lbs (or so), walks “less than a few miles” to his hide spot, + walks less than a few miles back to his car + walks carrying another 20lbs (or so) less than a few miles back to his hidey spot, secures the treasure, + walks back less than a few miles to his car at dusk.
    My math says about 9-10 miles of up and down hiking, finishing near a late summer sundown.
    At 30 min a mile x say 10mls = 5 hrs walking time. (considering his age and weight he’s carrying!)
    NOT counting a 10-15 min break between trips, extending total deed time to approx 5hr. 45 min.
    If he left after eating a fortifying lunch, at about 1pm, he would finish at near supper time, wishing for a flashlight and a sandwich, hiking is hard work, carrying weight and crossing water each trip.

    This is my stanza three breakdown. It’s his process of hiding the treasure.
    ☆ The daunting hike, don’t be meek
    ☆ You’ve reached the final leg of search, it’s nigh-near.
    ☆ You won’t walk along the creek-water,
    ☆ You have to cross it, (water high) bringing back the heavy load (treasure).
    ¥Peace ¥

  25. Donna:

    I have made a similar analysis and have come to the conclusion that the TC is closer than your calculation.. In fact, I have suggested it is closer than we think. Mine has him crossing a stream or shallow river, something he has experience doing, just a little more careful now than when he was a kid. Also, the calculations will change dramatically if the terrain is rougher than we estimate. Remember, he tell us the TC, as I recall, is not near a human trail, but an existing trail may be used to get close. Flat ground, your calculation might be close, but if the route is more challenging, reduce the distance accordingly, in my humble opinion.

    • I 100% agree, Bigskip!
      I never figured on a trail, knew it was off trail. Don’t know if he would cross near beginning of hike, or near end. I also feel he “meeked” his own trail, following a rugged fast flowing creek!

  26. Gang,

    Has anyone else expereinced the following? You think you’ve found the starting point but when you look on Google Earth, it doesn’t look anything like what you thought it should? And, it doesn’t seem to fit the clues – at least looking from a satellite?

    Going to bed now, up way past my bed time.

    • Most of my amazement has come once I am at the specified GE location in person. Spent half a morning trying to figure how to access a mesa. Once I got there it was more magnificent than GE could ever capture.

  27. Donna M.

    Would like to add to our calculations about distances and time of travel to the TC: as I am up in years like Master Fenn, I am now considering more heavily where a 79-80 year old man would be able to hike with an additional 20+ pounds of weight in a backpack with of other items. Rugged terrain – I don’t think so. What say you?

    • Bigskip, I agree. I emailed F a couple of yrs ago, asking if the area was handicap accessible. My hubby is a paraplegic vet. F replied, “Yes, but you will need some help.”
      I didn’t know if that meant for a water crossing or rugged/altitude ground. I figure it may be both, since there is no trail to tc.
      My grandpa passed away at 103, and was 90 when he had to sell his cattle because he couldn’t keep up the hard work. At 85, he was still going strong! I feel F was in good shape, but saying “a 79-80 yr old” is telling us the terrain isn’t too bad, at least not for two legs.

      • Donna, if that is an exact account of your question and Forrest’s answer, that sounds like a HUGE hint. A paraplegic is wheelchair bound and cannot walk so does Forrest’s response mean that the TC hidey spot is someplace a wheelchair could go? If so, that means a GREAT deal and definitely limits the number of places to search.

          • I think a disabled person sitting on a horse or a mule – could go almost anywhere…………. many schools teach riding to the disabled. It’s fun to watch them have so much fun………… 🙂

          • William, I have a sister and a nephew in electric wheelchairs and they are very helpful, but they definitely are limited and I doubt they could go to most, if any, of the places that the searchers who have posted here have gone. They sure couldn’t have gone to any place I have searched so far and I’m not rock climbing or rappelling down cliffs! 🙂

      • Donna,

        These e-mail exchanges are always difficult to understand from another searchers perspective… as, all we have to go on is what another person post. So seeing you did post, would you mind, if you could clear a couple things up?
        I don’t need to know the extent of your husbands problems, just if your meaning is that, he is confined to a wheel chair and / or did you explain the disability to Fenn?

        The other part of your comment was… “since there is no trail to tc.” was this part of the e-mail / conversation with fenn or your assumption?

        Fenn did state the chest is not in close proximity to a human trail… Yet, we as searcher don’t have a scale to go by of what is close or far. As Fenn stated… to an Ant a mud puddle is an ocean.

        Thanks for any clarity you can proved.

        • Also the without a little help! What kind of help? Over a log, cross a creek or stream, up a hill or down a hill?
          This is the first information in the last couple of days that has peeked my interest. Thank you Donna I would like to hear insight on this !

        • I remember reading something that stated what FF said about the word “Tarry” in the poem. It was something to the effect of -he looked the word tarry up and it was defined in one way as meaning “3”-. And that was how many miles it was from where he parked to the treasure. Haven’t heard any discussion on this. I wonder if anyone else has info on it, or if it’s true?

          • OK – I’m going to have to stop reading this blog. Every time I turn around I learn something new, and I have been here for three years.

            Where did you find out that “tarry” = 3?

            Scott W

          • Scott, it could possibly have been a misquote but it was stated as a fact wherever it was that I read it. I have been researching for less than 2 weeks but have learned a lot (although some would say I have done little research). I can’t remember where I found that but I do remember it being a quote. As far as tarry meaning 3, from what I have been able to find, it actually refers to having something to do with being in the 3rd person. That’s the closest I’ve come to relating tarry to the number 3. Although it seems to fit well with the references made to hiding the chest. I believe someone on here has also calculated something very close. Their calculation was 2.5 miles. I will make an effort to find that quote again and will post it if I do.

          • I would like to hear a better interpretation “tarry” other than tar-like if anyone has one. I know that there are some tar pits of sort or something maybe relating to tar (I mean the black tacky substance you might put on your roof) in Yellowstone but I don’t buy any correlation between the hideyspot and tar.

          • Jamie,
            Thanks for the link. I didn’t realize the ability to drill down so well in a word study. I think I shall tarry a while.

          • Jamie when i post u will see my last name otherwise it isnt me

            besides the word itself, tarry i mean, which has multiple meanings i also see (imo) hints at starry and “but tarry” hinting at butary or tributary.

            in the poem acrostic , “tri” lies right across “but tarry” going down to up

        • Seeker, I explained to F the what how and why my husband was confined to a wheelchair. I asked if it was handicap accessible, he said, exact words, “yes, but he would need some help.”
          With the further statement fenn gave later of, “It’s not on a human trail”, I then understood f meant Jim’s wheelchair would have difficulty going over “virgin” untrailed ground and/or water.
          F did not go into detail what kind of “help” Jim would need as far as rocks, logs, water, inclines etc.
          We can take Jim pretty much anywhere if there is a strong person on each side. Except a cliff or deep water!
          Most of the places I’ve searched by myself are pretty smooth, you don’t have to “mountain goat” it. So, Jim could make it.
          And NO, a helicopter would NOT be needed!…CJINCA

          • Donna, please reread the exchange between Jeffery and me. I was astonished at Jeffery’s response that a helicopter could be used to get a person ANYWHERE. While that is true, I do not believe for a second that is what Forrest meant when he responded to you. My response to Jeffery was a feeble attempt at registering disbelief and a bit of sarcasm that Jeffery would think that Forrest would place the treasure where a family with little children, a 79-80 year old person or ANYONE could not get to fairly easily. I don’t even think searchers would have to hike very far or cross a stream to get to the treasure or that the treasure is very far from a parking area. Sorry there was any misunderstanding.

          • No worries Jeremy. It’s easy to misunderstand people on the internet. If we all were face to face, anyone would have been able to tell by my expression and tone of voice that I was teasing you about that comment, and that I in no way believed a helicopter would ever be necessary. 🙂 Many of the things Forrest has said in interviews and emails leads me to believe that the TC is accessible to all without much physical effort and Forrest’s answer to Donna may very well mean the TC may be even more accessible than I originally thought!

      • I wouldn’t get too excited guys. Remember, he’s a pilot. Search and rescue helicopters retrieve folks in all manner of critical conditions from all sorts of crazy places. If they can pull someone out, they could deposit someone in as well.

        At best we’re left with something “not wheelchair accessible” (because they would need assistance). I don’t think the inverse “wheelchair accessible” can be extracted from this statement. A person can go anywhere with the right kind of assistance.

        • Disclaimer: I have a personal “roller bag” principle I hold in mind. This principle states that an elderly man can carry 42 lbs. of weight in a roller bag fairly easily, and that roller bags can be taken virtually anywhere without arousing curiosity — tourist just taking in the sights. Thus, no need for two trips to a car. Because we have two trips to a car, no roller bag. One could argue that Fenn made it more difficult than it need be, but the balance of probability is on the side of an area that is rougher than a roller bag (or wheelchair) could handle.

          • I think he could have taken a roller bag – then covered the marks on his last journey back to the car. If he buried it – he may have taken a post hole digger or a pick axe and shovel – plus he may have placed a camera there – somewhere and needed supplies to do that too.

        • I guess this is another of Forrest’s non-answers. So Donna’s takeaway from that email is that she might need to hire a helicopter to help get herself and her husband to the place she thinks the treasure might be? Pretty expensive search! 🙂

          • CJ… you forgot your “imo”. F answered my question, knew the circumstance and advised he would need help. I take F’s word for it, and not as a non-answer. Ye of little faith…thank God I caught your answer before Jim saw it, he is already going thru alot as it is.

          • I said helicopter because it was the first thought I had with Fenn being a pilot. I didn’t mean anything harsh by it.

            Certainly to visit a place that an 79-80 year old visited, a disabled person would not need assistance as extreme as a helicopter.

      • Donna, that’ was a great question to ask Fenn. Thank you. I’m interpreting that the area is handicap accessible, but the hidey spot (last few steps) may be difficult for your husband. IMO, we get as close as possible to the hidey spot and the last few steps take more physical effort to reach and carry Indulgence. This reminds me of Fenn’s trip with Concy.

        • I completely agree with you on this Rose and that explanation fits my solve perfectly. I just wish I didn’t have to wait 6 more months to go on my 1st search.

      • So….

        Since the book is available to the public, and the public is invited to the Chase, does that mean the solve must be ADA compliant?

        I think I have a very valid question here. This is a public chase. If the chase is not possible for the few, is it even legal by DOJ rulings of 2001 or 2010?

        The first ADA standards, with real meat, were published in 2001. The most recent DOJ passing of the standards were published in 2010. The later is why you have talking ATMs, lifts in public swimming pools, and a mobile ap provided by the BEP to read currency with a smart phone camera. BTW – our currency is not ADA compliant.

        Don’t ask me how I know about the ADA rulings. In case you are wondering, I didn’t have to look it up.

        Hmmm… He did say he thought of everything.

        Scott W

        • Scott, I’m replying here because I just didn’t want to scroll around to find the thread about the Valles. So you said been there done that. Not that it would change my plans but I take it you have been to and done what I was planning to do. I’d be interested in any details you would be willing to share or possibly sharing your story on that.

      • Nicenidaho, thanks for the reminder. No, I don’t underestimate F at all. I know the journey is not a walk in the park, but also realize it’s not climbing Mt. Everest either. Just somewhere in btwn! Ya cant be meek and ya gotta be brave!
        Be safe all! ¥Peace ¥

      • Nicenidaho, gregorious, and anyone who cares to do so, you may want to research the age of the oldest person to make it to the summit of Mount Everest. I put nothing past little ol’ f.

  28. Well, I just finished catching up on about 500 (more or less) comments. Thanks, Goofy and Dal, for maintaining the helm and rolling through the swells. This chapter of the 9, IMO, has helped me focus on a place. Someone had mentioned the 9 things they thought were the clues. I could hardly believe they left out look quickly down your quest to cease. I hope I can be as brave as the brave are. Hi, f 🙂

  29. Charmay said that she was told that in ’77. That was several years before had cancer (’88) and thought about hiding the chest, as well as before his father got cancer(’86?). He says no one knows the spot but him. Did he forget about telling Charmay about THAT spot or is it totally different from his hiding spot. Lots of possibilities, all IMO. I think the later, but I would still like to know where she said he wanted to die.

    • Not Obsessed, don’t know if you were directing that comment to MY comment about the chapter in TFTW.
      If you were, I wasn’t talking about the “death location” at all!
      Sorry for any misunderstanding!

  30. I just found a more direct way to fit the HOB clue to my solve than how I was applying it before, which makes me feel even more confidant about my solve. I will only give one hint since my trip is still 6 months away. My solution for HOB is a real person’s name and yet has nothing to do with any structures (which fits Fenn’s statement). If I was closer than 900 + miles away I would take a road trip this weekend. I’m almost 40 years old and I feel like an excited 16 year old 🙂

    • Bookworm,

      Congrats on finding the fountain of youth!

      Some clarification from the peanut gallery, did FF ever say that HOB was not associated with a structure, or that the TC was not associated with any structure?

      Wisconsin Mike

      • what i recall is

        WWH is not related to any dam

        treasure chest is not associated with a structure

        HOB has not been commented on in this regard (so perhaps it could be associated w/ a structure, or not)

      • After thinking about it over the weekend I scratched my theory on that person being the correct HOB. Back to more armchair searching……:)

  31. I forgot what interview it was on but yes, FF specifically said no structures are involved with the clue/clues. Dal or some of the other bloggers might know the exact quote.

    I’m not patting myself on the back yet, I still need to “put feet on the ground” and look for it. April 23rd – 30th is when I will be in West Yellowstone, already made reservations for a 7 night stay.

    As far as the Blaze is concerned, there is a white blaze I can see on google maps but it’s roughly 2 miles North from the creek I plan on going up (without a paddle) plus the area directly below that blaze is below the 5000 ft elevation mark. I feel the Blaze FF is referring to will be a Blaze he placed about the TC that will survive the 1000 + years he stated that the landmarks would still be there. Which means, I won’t find the blaze till I am there in real life, in the woods.

    • Thanks Dal…would be great if we knew exactly which art genre Fenn was fond of because it may shed light in his artistic mind in composing his poem.He says in the article he wss not fond of abstract art and suggests he liked some of the modern arts.But which types? There were many flavours.Impressionist? Post impressionists? Cubism? Would have been great to know.


    • This recent Fenn article is proof there is a always paradigm shift waiting to happen.

      Maybe artists are seen as exploring the new/old ideas and create experiences more fully than the average person?

      IMO they are perpetually tapping into something ancient and relative regardless of the age and time. I’ll call it visual recycling.

      Clever artists trap us in a moment and make us take inventory of our feelings. A second and third and fourth more commited look is what they want from us.

      • “Clever artists trap us in a moment and make us take inventory of our feelings. A second and third and fourth more commited look is what they want from us.”
        Nicely put 23.
        Cholly- My curiousity is peaked by f writing 1970 when it seems that period of time was was prior to his career taking off in 1972. Yet he states it followed him being out of the business. Is it another business? Not likely since he missed the comaraderie that surrounds the artists. Imo and loosely quoted

          • Forever clever, you will never sever from being clever, however I endeavor to figure out the 1970 or whatever.

            I emailed a comment on the site as follows:

            {Quote below for the convenience of other readers}
            1) Mentions you being out of the business and your longing to be back in the community of artists again.
            2) begins ” So, in 1970,”

            Is the word “So” or the year “1970”

            1) “After a few years being out of the business I felt isolated and longed to get back into camaraderie that surrounds the artists and what they do. I was still learning and wanted to participate.

            2) So, in 1970, I commissioned Roseta Santiago to paint the cover of my Historic American Indian Dolls book. Everyone loved it.”

  32. This question relates to the blaze in the poem; I’ve been looking at the design of the belt buckle in the TFTW book (just after the front cover) and there’s one red stone (possibly coral) mixed in with turquoise stones. When I view the Ohkay Owingeh, NM landscape North of Santa Fe using Google Maps, I see a similar parcel pattern. Could the belt buckle be a parcel map for the blaze? Just wondering….

  33. Another thought about the nine clues that comes to mind is horse racing and betting. As I gone alone in there with my treasures bold. This would be a wager.
    If you’ve been wise and found the blaze (horse). I give you title to the gold (winner). I’m still sorting out this possibility. Just wondering if anyone had a thought about this.

    • Rose, IMO, I can see your connection with the words you chose to horse racing/betting, but like golf…I don’t think it’s something he participated in. He worked too hard for his money, and his parents taught him the value of money. Don’t think he would throw it away betting. Or hide the tc near a race track!
      Again, imo.

      • Hi Donna,
        The wagering subject wasn’t my first thought, but after seeing so many pictures of horses and that Fenn won an item in a game of pool against Byron Harvey (TTOTC pg 130), I started to visit this subject more.

    • i see drawing and nigh as possible horse related hints

      place is a term for racehorses placing in the money, whereas no place may be hinting at horses having trouble winning

      • @Chris, I’m seeing the same thing. Wagering, hint if riches new and old, blaze, place, nigh, title, wood/stable, put in, heavy loads (jockey), etc. I know there’s a race track in Santa Fe called Downs, but I’m not familiar with the other states or North of Santa Fe.

        • Rose –

          I’m seeing “title to the gold” as being the Olympics with horses………… :)”

          I think your on the right path…………or maybe even the right canyon down – if your on a horse in a steeple chase….

    • I also remember Fenn providing an example regarding the 66,000 links North of Santa Fe. Something about a horse track…

  34. Although and perhaps not in a typical sense; I can certainly imagine Forrest engaging in a bit of ‘wagering’ – Unless under certain conditions and in consideration of environment (s); I can not however, visualize him toting a “roller bag” behind him.

    Anyone’s guess.

    • So my thought on that (mentioned above) stems from wondering what, if anything, we can reason out from the fact that he took two trips to his car.

      I feel that an elderly man can carry 42 lbs. of weight in a roller bag fairly easily, and that roller bags can be taken virtually anywhere without arousing curiosity — tourist just taking in the sights. Thus, no need for two trips to a car. Because we have two trips to a car, no roller bag.

      I mention roller bag because it is the least conspicuous of tools he could have used to make one trip, but I think the same would apply to hand carts, etc. You can get some with large wheels for uneven terrain (grass and the like). You can cart a cooler around like this (think lawn concert). These are all things that would have made it relatively easy to make a single trip if the terrain is not at least somewhat rugged.

      Thus, I figure, the balance of probability is on it being at least moderately rugged or involving inclines or something that would prevent a tool like this from being used.

      Doesn’t really help much, but It’s probably not on a lawn.

      I think we can reason further and say that it is significantly away from an even terrain as well. If he used a tool like a roller bag or hand cart, etc. to take it from his car across even terrain to rougher terrain, that’s only one trip to the car. Thus, probably not in the gully, behind the trees, at the end of an otherwise manicured memorial park.

      Again, doesn’t really help much, but I like to think on things that we can try and reason out. There’s not much of that, so I look for easy pickings.

      • Jeremy, I’ve lived or worked it the Rockies most of my life and I don’t ever recall seeing someone with a roller bag in the wilderness. Doesn’t mean it doesn’t happen, but it would be very conspicuous to me.

        There has been much speculation on this blog about why and how he made two trips to hide the treasure. Some of them are very interesting……

        Mr. Fenn,
        When you made the two trips from your car to hide the chest and the gold, did you carry it openly in your hands or in some type of bag or backpack?

        I did both. It was a special time of fulfillment for me and I can still sense now, the elation I felt then. It’s the only time I recall laughing out loud at myself. Hiding that treasure chest full of gold and jewels was fundamental to how I feel about living life to its stretched best, and it emphasizes my aversion to seeing anyone be a spectator to today’s opportunities.f

        • Goofy –

          I’ve heard you mention “conspicuous” before.

          I think the answer is so right in our face – and at the very beginning – so as to be overlooked.

          As I went in there ALONE……………

          To me that means – with no one else around – and if he didn’t do it that way – he would be taking a huge gamble that someone would see him carrying something.

          Just my little ole opinion………. 🙂

          • inthechase, some take the poem to mean, as you do, that he was in a place where no one was around.

            Some take it to mean he walked in right in front of everyone with his treasures bold and no one paid any attention to him.

            He has said in a couple interviews there wasn’t anyone around when he got back to his car so he laughed out loud.

          • I agree. I think it is likely very simple. But you just won’t realize that until you’ve found the chest or at least put yourself on the correct path. And him going it alone, I agree with that as well. I believe it’s all right under our noses.

        • Goofy, it would be weird in the “wilderness”, and that’s kind of my point. I don’t believe would be found stashed at some manicured state park, campground, etc. The balance of probability says it’s out in nature-nature.

        • He said he ‘did both’…I can easily see him carrying the contents in a bag the first trip and the chest in his hands on the second…This is consistent with his stating the order in which he deposited the trove, contents first and chest second…He observed no one near so the second trip was open carry… 🙂

          It is why he laughed out loud, he just got away with something audacious and un-observed… 🙂

          Scenario consistent with his statements…Good enough for me… 🙂

  35. Sorry, don’t mean to be so cryptic and confusing! The link Dal just shared, the third to last and second to last paragraphs…:

    ” After a few years being out of the business I felt isolated and longed to get back into camaraderie that surrounds the artists and what they do. I was still learning and wanted to participate. So, in 1970,……..” is he messing with us? lol!

    • I saw that as well and figured it was a typo, but couldn’t figure what it was supposed to be. Thought maybe 1990, but he had a 5 year no-compete after selling the gallery.

      • Jeremy,

        I think it’s just a typo and should be 1990 which would be a few years after 1988. Maybe writing books about art or commisioning a painting for a cover were not included in his non compete Claus a way for him to get back into the business with out breaking the contract…:)

        “After a few years being out of the business I felt isolated and longed to get back into camaraderie that surrounds the artists and what they do. I was still learning and wanted to participate”…

        “So, in 1970, I commissioned Roseta Santiago to paint the cover of my Historic American Indian Dolls book. Everyone loved it.”

        • Spallies I believe the book “Historic American Indian Dolls” he commissioned the art for came out in 2007. So it may have been much later than 1990.

  36. Jeremy:

    Regarding your 10:14AM comment, that was the whole purpose of FF and the treasure, “to get people up off the couch and for them to experience nature”. I suspect he didn’t mean manicured memorial and sports parks. It’s out there, waiting for someone to claim it and, in my opinion, closer than we think.

  37. Happy Halloween fellow searchers! We are off to do the Halloween stroll downtown. Be safe tonight!

  38. CJ, thanx for the springboard into the following conversation.

    Earlier this day you said, “Many of the things Forrest has said in interviews and emails leads me to believe that the TC is accessible to all without much physical effort and Forrest’s answer to Donna may very well mean the TC may be even more accessible than I originally thought!”

    I’d like to take that thought and run with it, if I may, tossing it out to the rest of the contributors here to get just what their takes are on this. For myself, I am of the opinion that there will have to be some “amount of sweat” involved. That sounds a bit ambiguous, so I’ll try to help us all out.

    If running a maraton is a 10 in rank and pushing a grocery cart in a grocery store is a 1, the mid point between those two extremes might be dragging an 8 point buck out of the woods with a buddy. In my mind, it’s about the total amount of exertion that’s going to be required from start to finish, so maybe dragging the deer is a bit over the half-way point.

    The past couple of days there’s been comments about disabled folks being able to get to the hiding spot with assistance. From personal experience working with the physically handicapped back in college, I can tell you that some of the strongest, most fit folk have disabilities. My current state of fitness pales in comparison to many of them. However, the advantage I have is that I am an “able bodied” adult male that’s done some physical exertion in the past.

    What say you all on the amount of exertion you expect to expend in your retreval of Indulgence?

    • @SWWOT My plan is to hike with my partner, each of us carrying 20 pounds of sand in addition to the flashlight, sandwiches and Dr. Peppers….this will simulate the weight going in and we will have some padding to silence the coins and stuff on the way out….lol!

    • swwot, Forrest keeps saying don’t go where a 79-80 year old could not go, or something to that effect, and also a 3 year old girl could walk up to the TC with some help. Comments such as these lead me to think that we may not have to put as much effort into the finding of the TC but carrying 42 pounds might be a little challenging and maybe even making 2 trips with a little over 20 pounds for each trip might be a lot for some people. 🙂

      I’ve read comments about how fit some 79-80 year old people can be and not to underestimate them but I don’t think Forrest is referring to those people but rather to the average 79-80 year old. Also Forrest wants families, even those with little children to search for the treasure and he even said that children may have an advantage. What could that advantage be? Maybe children are closer to the ground and are more agile than the adults they are with so they can look low under bushes etc. Anyway, I do not believe the effort will be great, but there will be some effort.

      • CJinCA… children have the advantage in the way that they “think and process” . IMHO

        • Very true! Reminds me of this quote from Forrest “Some searchers overrate the complexity of the search. Knowing about head pressures, foot pounds, acre feet, bible verses, Latin, cubic inches, icons, fonts, charts, graphs, formulas, curved lines, magnetic variation, codes, depth meters, riddles, drones or ciphers, will not assist anyone to the treasure location…” 🙂

    • I believe Mr. Fenn has also said that the person who finds the chest will have earned it. Probably much like the person who hid the chest paid for it. IMO determination will be a deciding factor. Please double check the exact wording as this is off the top of my head.

      • IMO – It doesn’t matter what Fenn said after the book was published. If you can’t solve it with just TTOTC, then you are destined to fail.

        I want you to imagine that Fenn vanished after writing TTOTC. In your opinion, would the poem be solvable without all the extra communication from Fenn?

        If yes – then discount everything, because the poem is solid and stands alone.
        If no – then the poem is unsolvable standing alone.

        Scott W

        • Q1, you are wise. Anything spoken or published by FF post-TTOTC, while potentially helpful, is subject to misinterpretation. As such information is increasingly factored into a solve, so rises the risk of error proportionately…(IMO,OC)…..

  39. Searchers:

    Need some help. With all of the recent discussions about accessibility to the TC, terrain, disabled searchers, assistance, not dangerous to children etc,. etc., I am beginning to wonder. I keep very close in my mind the FF comment we have all considered: “If I were standing where the treasure chest is, I’d see ….. My interpretation of that “hint” is that the TC place has some elevation to it, possibly a view. Most likely not down at the bottom of a canyon. His description somewhat matches a majestic and spiritual place he would want his bones to rest. But the hike distance and terrain to get there now has me puzzled. What has FF actually said about the walking journey to the TC?
    Is there a list of comments?
    Thanks to all

    • BigSkip,

      Of course – it means the treasure chest is hidden behind a roadside highest elevation marker – why didn’t i think of it earlier?

      I’m just joshin’ – 🙂

  40. Big Skip, He said he made two trips from his car “in one afternoon”, that could be 10-20 minutes to 5-6 hours. He also also said that he walked less than a few miles, and that one of the definitions of few was “scant” . If it were three miles he would have walked twelve miles, six with 20+ pounds of weight, not counting water, etc. Knowing how Forrest answers questions, he could have walked less that fifty feet from his car and it would still be in one afternoon and less than a few miles. All in all only FF knows how far it was. I don’t consider the “not in close proximity to a human trail” to be much help either. Is a road a human trial or a “car” trail, and how far is “close proximity”? Animal trails are often used by humans, but I wouldn’t consider them “human trails”. FF was near 80 when he hid the TC, I think that he is capable of covering most terrain but I don’t think he climbed any cliffs etc. He mentions that is is where a 79-80 year could go. Again not much help considering his abilities.
    Good luck, and I hope that this helps you answer your question.

    • Not Obsessed:

      Thanks for the reply. I recognized those points and understand them well. When we are talking “trails” of one type or another, I clearly have an impression of a well traveled human trail vs. an animal trail. And of course what “no trail” looks like in all kinds of natural terrain. Not to mention how difficult the terrain could be. But when Donna M. asked FF something regarding could a handicapped person either go on the Chase or find the TC, I believed he said something like, “yes, with a little help”. That changed the my solve dramatically. If my recollection of FF comment is correct, and I am open to corrections, what are the opinions of the veteran searchers?

      • This is one of those IMO moments so please take it with a grain of salt if you disagree.

        I believe a person in a wheelchair will be able to roll up/down the trail with a minimum amount of help but when the search goes off the well traveled trail then the person in the wheelchair will need assistance to enter the woods to finish going the distance to the TC (500 feet or less).

        • Just throwing out a idea for consideration. Could the “500” be the distance from a road that someone told FF that they drove down? And the 200 ft could be the distance “not close proximity” form the human trail that someone told FF they went down? This would mean that you follow a human trial for 300 feet then go off the trail for another 200 ft? I haven’t heard anyone bring up this possibility but maybe it might help someone, comments???

          • Obsessed, it could be, you find the baze and from the road/human trail you go quickly down and when you’ve gone 300 feet you look straight down 200 feet and there it is. The path to get to it could be an easier to naviate path other than down a 200 ft bluff face….. IMO.

          • Applying this concept to my solve the creek I plan on checking out next April (my first trip) is off the trail. On google maps I can see where I’d lose sight of the trail after 200-300 feet, although seeing it on a map is always different than in person.

            Also I can see someone having the same location I decided on before this and already has checked it out. This would full fill FF’s comment about a person(s) being within 200 ft from the TC. I figure whoever that person was just didn’t go further up that creek, which I have every intention of doing when I get there.

            It’s a 1000 mile one way trip for me when I go and I plan on searching every inch of that creek starting from when I leave the trail up to 600-700 feet up the creek. LOL, if this is not the correct spot I don’t want to get back to California and look back and wish I had checked a placed missed. 🙂

          • Slurbs, I think 200 feet down a cliff would not be “look quickly down”. It would be “look WAY down” don’t you think. LOL I really hadn’t consider someone being 200-500 above or below it but defiantly a possibility. Have to be a long hike around for a 80 year old man to make it up and down twice in one afternoon, or maybe he parked his car at the bottom Hummm??. IMO (:

          • Not Obsessed, yes, I believe, in this example, f knew the where, may have parked low, stashed the chest and made the trip twice in one afternoon. So planned, IMO, that the clues lead you to a place above the TC to see it below. Must follow the clues in order though… IMO.

  41. Again…..consider the Clovis Child – Think…..Yellow and double “L”……and a box…(outside, why would one ‘really’ care, anyway?)

    C C C ~ A great experience!

    The heart loves and holds dear…what the heart loves and holds dear.

    DEEP ‘in” the heart of a T…an ~

    SL ~

    • T and I

      And the TnA

      The stars at night are big and bright….but I think that lone star might actually be a Clovis Comet…do you reckon?

      Go big or go home?

  42. couple of things:
    Wondering about how Forrest came up with the odd number 10,200ft as the max altitude.

    Then I wondered “could Forrest really be so “cute” as to mean EXACTLY between 5,000 and 10,200 ft?” Then I checked my current spot, and it is right at 7,600 ft ! Wooohooooo (fill in the celebratory self delusionment here).

    • Yes I agree, that’s the altitude I keep in mind while doing research. Also keeping an eye out for those 10,200 ft. hilltops or mesas, yes here in Colorado 10,200 ft. would be a hilltop or mesa.

      • What the context of Forest saying it was under 10,200 feet. I see that posted quite a lot, but don’t recall coming across the exact language Forest used. Thanks.

  43. I always wonder on the ” moving with confidence to the hiding spot” statement of Fenn(don’t recall his exact wordings).Does that mean one may not have to physically go through the places of the 9 clues if he figures out the clues on a map at home so as to go to the hiding spot directly with confidence? Just a question.


  44. Hey Searchers:

    Help this old man out: trying to remember FF’s specific words to us all about what we needed to find the TC. Did he say “all we needed was the TTOTC book, a dictionary and a good map”. Are those his words and suggestions?

    • This quote is mentioned often Skip – is this the one you are thinking of?

      “Some searchers overrate the complexity of the search. Knowing about head pressures, foot pounds, acre feet, bible verses, Latin, cubic inches, icons, fonts, charts, graphs, formulas, curved lines, magnetic variation, codes, depth meters, riddles, drones or ciphers, will not assist anyone to the treasure location, although those things have been offered as positive solutions. Excellent research materials are TTOTC, Google Earth, and/or a good map.” f

      • Thanks CJinCA:
        Are we both in CA? I have that specific comment from FF in my notes, but I recall an earlier statement which I thought he said simply his book, a dictionary and a map.
        I am trying to recall that he didn’t originally include Google Earth. And of course, what kind of map, how old, map of what, etc., was he referring to.
        Thanks again

        • Forest has mentioned a dictionary a few times, but to my knowledge not in the manner you think. One time he said something about he liked to make up words and looked in the dictionary to make sure they were not in there and another time he said he didn’t use a dictionary. At least that is my recollection of his thoughts about dictionaries – go figure!

          Yes, I’m in N. Cali. where are you Skip?

  45. Talk tober is over and it seriously snowing in the mountains.

    What do you think about In this latest Interview? ff has now stated PERHAPS 4 clues instead of 2 maybe solved , and since he has stated before, and I paraphrase;

    ” There are many places in the Rockies where warm waters halt”.

    So also ff says that each clue you solve moves you closer to the TC. I try to imagine the most general description you can possibly have for WWWH, and that is truly the most broad interpretation for this thought, the place where cold water starts, so recall that ff was a pro fishing guide, and if you check the various Game and Fish proclamations in each of the 4 remaining states, you have completely covered www halt and cold water regulations begin. Now you have for all intents and purpose surrounded in vast net the entire mountain range.

    This could be the first clue and is widely accepted and endorsed by Dal and many other bright searches. IMO if anyone thinks that Hot Water is where you start you may as well play Canasta,…Just sayin.

    The next clue, potentially the second in my humble, and is the only word (noun) which has only one meaning, most simply a canyon where www changes to cold water. In analyzing the canyon statement it seems to be narrowing from our most general area to a more specific area, so perhaps that is how you solve the whole enchilada as we say here in the Southern Rockies.

    Now the curious statement of not far, but too far to walk which took a whole book for ff to explain cannot possibly be a clue unless in line #20 he defines too far in no uncertain terms; I’ve done it tired and now I am weak. The only way I see this might be a clue is in terms of ff’s life and how it all will end.

    Therefore, again, just IMHO, the third clue is put in the (canyon stream) below the home of Brown, which is much more specific than the first two clues, is anyone with me so far?

    Now how do we find Home of BROWN which is most certainly in cold waters OR NEAR WHERE THEY START?

    I tried starting with the most famous Browns, as in humans, not THE fish, specifically the one ff might have admired So I thought of Molly Brown of Titanic fame because she was a resident of Leadville, Co, and the world class rafting of the Arkansas River through “Brown’s Canyon, below Mt Elbert, highest peak in the Rockies ” . Another famous person, Jim Brown who was perhaps the greatest football player of all time all pro for 9 straight years years set records for the NFL at Cleveland Browns Team, and there is a Cleveland, NM and perhaps a Cleveland, Co and maybe a Wyo and Mt for all I know.

    That clue has everyone stumped I think. If it were a Brown Trout I looked for the Sate Record fish and where it was taken, ie: in NM on the Chama River so if you think it is a fish, that would be where the Brown Trout call home. Often they live under rocks, and cut banks in cold waters. So HOB is the key to finding TC.

    Next is the place ff describes as not for the meek, which could mean wild and treacherous and since it is not Capitalized I do not think it is MEEK the mountain man of fame in early Yellowstone lore.

    The end is ever drawing nigh is a most curious clue since we are left wondering if it is the end of life, or a trail, a creek does it wander to the left which is also know as drawing nigh?

    Who would like to show me a more profound way to narrow the clues to a point where we may get to 200 or so feet from Indulgence…

    Tom Terrific

    Good Luck and stay safe, it is snowing in the Rockies so we may talk through another winter…see you on the net.. Thanks Dal for helping me dream and think this winter, your site is the best..

    • Thanks Tom Terrific, I like your thought process. I woke up this morning and put similar thoughts down on my yellow legal pad, asking myself if 4 clues had been solved and WWWH is the first then wouldn’t hoB be the fourth and if so hasn’t ff stated that if we knew hoB we’d go right to the TC, so then I wondered if there is in fact a small first clue in the first stanza and hoB hasn’t been identified, others may have walked right past the other clues, etc. I’ll drop you an emai in a few, I’m One last thought/share if a person were trying to hide and didn’t have any pepper for the dogs then wouldn’t they jump in the stream…..IMO!

    • There is a link to one of these on the media page but it all makes me wonder so meny things. Like, did Fenn complete the book in 2008 but didn’t publish until 2010? Why wait 2years? Was that the amount of time he needed to secret TC? Fenn did say he felt like the book wrote it’s self and it only took 2 weeks to write. So why did he send these to west yellowstone news? and why are they different? Upon reading them it does seem like he edited them to take out some info but why? Did the info give away too much? or is this what inspired him to complete the book? Fenn has said he didn’t want anyone to know the timeline before the chest was hidden, may these articals help to understand that time line better? so meny questions with never enough time…

  46. Very good eye to pick up the differences. Helps reinforce my solve, Maybe someday somebody will find the chest near my spot.LOL Goodluck everybody.

  47. being able to notice little details makes a good detective and I believe there are enough little differances in the news letters to come up with some possible hints.

  48. I have run across an interesting solve from another poster. However, I am questioning parts of the solve. Specifically regarding Forrest’s elevation comment. Can anyone tell me if the comment about the treasure being above 5,000 feet and below 10,200 feet was one comment or two comments that have been joined together on a lot of the forums. I am finding different versions of it on different sites.

  49. Ok here is what I am thinking after reading A LOT of posts on Dal’s site and other’s. If you use the “traditional” nine clues, I believe they are too vague to use alone to find the chest. There are soooooo many places that match when using these nine clues. Look at all the searchers that have found places based on these nine clues. So, either “other” information points to a specific area and then you use the clues in the poem to pinpoint the exact location or maybe we don’t have the correct nine clues.

    • Check out near the top of this page, gregarious. I tried to make a similar argument but with limited success. To me what you say is logical to the point of being absolute, but it seemed that most disagreed with me.

      • Spoon,
        We should also remember that it took Forrest 15 years to write this poem. Let me ask you this, if you hid something somewhere how long would it take you to create a poem telling where the item was hidden? I could probably do it in an afternoon. Why did it take him 15 years? My guess is that there is more to the poem than we think. 15 years is a VERY long time to spend writing a few lines.

        • If your logic is not popular, then its not going to get a lot of turns. Everyone is too hyped on their own solve to dig into yours. And if your logic goes against someones solve, then you can bet, that person will try to prove you wrong. The blogs wont help if you are trying to sell your solve, but they will help if you are trying gather information and reduce the area in which the chest is not at. Every topic will be an argument of what is concrete and what is not. There is no solid evidence of anything with this chase until the chest is found. I appreciate all of everyone’s opinions. It does help me translate the poem using everyones brain. Even if they are not correct. It will eventually come to someone one day.
          The blogs are a game of tug-a-war, with about 10 thousand different ends to tug from. If you are too busy playing tug-a-war, then you might miss the opportunity to find the chest.

          • Woneyedwilly, very philosophical, and I agree with your surmise 100%!
            If you post something that makes logical sense you sometimes get a reverse reaction.

            Imo, F first created his “telling” words on paper, his foundation, then wrote around those words to make sentences. This would take a long time to construct, like an architect, making sure sentences were logical and rhymed.
            The “word that is key” turns the poems angle, like a key turns the tumbler, placing the words into a sensible revealing sentence.
            I feel that’s why F said “Don’t mess with my poem!”. Those ‘tumblers’ need to be in place to unlock a solve!
            It’s all in the poem, he says that’s all you need, and a key can open its door!
            ¥Peace ¥

        • 15 years is subjective. We don’t know how many hours was put into the poem itself, to how many hours spent possible researching fenn needed to do himself for what ever reason. The timeline he gave himself to finish this project, is not so important as the timeline he gave the poem to be solvable~ even if it grows more difficult overtime.

          What we know is: He thought of time when writing and planning. { because he is adamant about 100 or even a 1000 years down the road}.
          We know, all the information needed is presented to us in a poem form. [ subjective in it-self ].
          We have a book to serve as reference.
          We have been told a good map is useful… and a map is a map, the more detailed a map the better.
          We have been told a comprehensive knowledge of geography might help.
          We know, that all the information to have a chance to solve the poem was presented to date of the release of the book TTOTC w/ the poem.
          We know the poem will lead precisely to the location of the chest.
          We have been told the importance on understanding the first clue.

          These, imo, are the basic and basis to solve the poem. The one that seems to be giving most of of problems if not all of us is… All the information we need to find the chest is in the poem…
          Does this mean the poem holds everything? and the book as helpful and confirmation.
          Or does the poem tell us what to look for… somewhere else?

          This is not about poem purist… it’s all about how do we read the poem correctly. We have been told we need to “know were to start” is this botg? in the poem itself? Information the poem indicates us to look into? [ in / or outside the poem ].

          Fenn also stated something very interesting which has imo lacked in discussion… He plans very little in his life, yet he put a lot of planning into this poem… and … he tells us the finder will plan as well. What planning is needed when thinking about the solution and the creation of the poem?

          • Imo, the planning would curtail the time of year you search. Late fall, winter and early spring would be out, due to snow fall.
            Preparing the trip by studying the suns angle …?
            Could the angle of the sun be in some relevance to the blaze? A cloudy day would prevent sun rays from disclosing the “right” spot? F loved Eric’s cloud paintings…hum?
            Could the sun’s rays be focused through a hole in a rock? The Aztec used this method for their precise calanders.

            Preparations would be needed on a carry method, hydration, food, and light…sandwich/flashlight.
            A good map, showing back dirt roads not aware by the tourist group?
            Just some food for thought!
            Again, IMO.
            ¥Peace ¥

          • I was working on a idea Donna about rainbows that a rainbow only appears when the sun is behind you and at a 42 degree angle. My War For Me he put that at 7:55 in a 255 degrees and back at 30 degrees which lead me to believe IMO it was a hint of directions

          • Seeker – this one sentence, “All of the information you need to find the treasure is in the poem.” has probably caused more confusion and discord among searchers than most of f’s other comments. And the next sentence he followed with, “The chapters in my book have very subtle hints but are not deliberately placed to aid the seeker.” has effectively caused all sorts of drama and debate over TTOTC having any relevence or use in helping to find the chest.

            These two statements have been generalized and twisted into all sorts of meanings. Many people seem to completely miss and not grasp the context or meaning as to what f meant when he penned these statements, and most only care about what their own interpretation of it means regardless of what f might have actually meant by it.

            I know this point has been discussed, to the point that the dead horse has been beaten to a bloody pulp, but I will state my thought again on it as it might help one person view it in a new way that might be of benefit to them.

            These two sentences are a specific response to a question put to f, so to see the context, one needs to apply the answer directly to the question.

            “We realize the clues are in the poem, but were wondering if there isn’t at least one clue in each chapter.”
            “All of the information you need to find the treasure is in the poem.”

            From this I get that the poem has all the detail, directions, guidance, or whatever it is required to get one to the chest. There are no clues or information in the book that will also be needed to get one to the chest; there isn’t “at least one clue in each chapter” of the book. No double omegas, no chopped down trees, no hidden coordinates in numbers or postage stamps; these things would be additional information for finding the chest.

            And what of the second sentence? “The chapters in my book have very subtle hints but are not deliberately placed to aid the seeker.” What of the “not deliberately placed” subtle hints? As f has stated, we don’t know the meaning of our own words; take a look at the word “aid,” what does it mean? “To provide what is useful or necessary.” And notice the use of the word “but.”

            The subtle hints that are in the book were not placed in the book to provide any “useful or necessary” INFORMATION that will be “useful or necessary” for finding the chest. All that is in the poem.

            So f is answering the question that there are NO additional clues in each chapter that are needed to find the chest; and while there are subtle hints in the book, they are also not put there to provide needed information or even to be after-the-fact confirmation (imo) of the clues that will help you find the chest.

            So what is the purpose of the subtle hints that f placed in the book? He has made it more than abundantly clear: to help one understand what the clues mean, what the clues themselves are. Just how helpful would it be to know what the clues actually are? Would that instill some confidence as you set out to fiind the chest?
            There is a reason why they are subtle, anything less would make it much to easy.

            A long response to a rhetorical question you asked. Maybe it might be of use to someone.

        • Well, I find myself in agreement with gregarious and woneyedwilly, and Donna M. has always been one of the smartest on this blog, so I guess I’ll leave this discussion feeling as if I’m in good company.

          • TY, Spoon, for your vote of confidence! I hope I live up to those expectations, by unraveling the 9 clues!
            (See how I did that, Goofy?! Still on topic! 🙂 )

          • William, yes, I too, have contimplate a 42` angle of sunshine for F’s rainbow! Each day, the time would get shorter, to view the angle.
            Summer solstice could play a part if considering a sun-blazed clue.
            It definately takes wisdom to know when that “time”/date would occur!
            It’s definitely worth considering, since searchers have bypassed so many clues, not realizing what they were looking for. It’s going to take an observant person to deduce the clues. A key would help!

  50. Just wondering if anyone noticed in TFTW Chapter 39, page 210, that the photo states Heading South, but the chapter title reads Heading North. Just curios….

    • Interesting… Perhaps in the photo he’s on his way home. I wonder who took the picture though…

    • It doesn’t matter. Fenn said all we need is the poem and a good map (he also mentioned Google Earth).

      I don’t bother to relate anything Chase related to the book TFTW.

      Scott W.

      • Scott,
        Don’t forget the poem is in TFTW but besides that I would agree with you. Have you read thoes few unedited chapthers from TTOTC?

      • Scott, that is basically my feelings as well. I am new to this and focusing on three things, 1) What are the 9 clues, 2) WWWH, and 3) the philosophy I want to apply to my solve. With respect to #3, do I want to consider that numerology and hidden messages and connections are in the book? I could, but I have enough trouble trying to figure it all out if it were much more straightforward. I think the “subtle clues” mean, if you get to “know” FF as best as you can then you begin to understand what moved him and what was most important to him. Then, when you are considering a solve, you might also know that your solve matches up with details about FF’s past in a way that adds to the likelihood that you solve is on tract.

        With respect to Google Earth. I do know I heard him say (in an interview) that the poem and sitting at home with Google Earth was not enough for a solve. My take away from that is that the final few clues are something that one can only solve on location.

  51. On that same page, the arrow head points to a moose and the moose has a reflection in the water. That same arrow head shows up again on page 248.

  52. All,
    If I recall correctly, F has recommended the following to find TC:
    The poem…
    The hints in TTOTC (and also the hint on the map in TFTW)…
    A good map, or GE…
    And a comprehensive knowledge of geography.

    With respect to the 10,200 foot altitude–I’m not a pilot, but if I understand correctly, a pilot will maintain an altitude of at least 200 feet above any potential obstacles. This could be a hint.

    “Have flashlight, will travel”

  53. Hey Searchers:

    BigSkip here:

    This beginner needs some help. Do I understand, based on the comments above, that FF most likely discovered or knew of “his” place somewhere out there, most likely discovered as a young boy (if you are of the Wyoming group) and spent 15 years, or thereabouts, designing and writing a poem for the reader to find the location? And then approximately 5 years ago, he visited that spot and “hid” the TC to begin the TTOTC. I understand his illness and the reason for the Chase, but still ponder the fifteen years of effort writing the poem. Is this about right?

    • That sounds about right, BigS, all except for the part about discovering it as a young boy. We have no information, as far as I know, on when he discovered the location. Yes, 15 years is a long time to write a 24-line poem, regardless of how many times he changed it. We can only speculate about what that implies about the nature of the poem.

      • Thanks Spoon

        Fifteen years is a long time to develop and write a very cryptic, disguising and difficult poem hiding a map and location instructions. Only FF, in my humble opinion.

    • Big Skip, As you have probably read, he made the decision to hid the chest when he had cancer and he knew where he wanted to hid in at that time. He overcame the cancer and therefore did not hid the chest. When he was nearing his 80th birth day he decided to go ahead and share the chase with everyone. He said that refined the poem several times over the years, but that was not why he waited 15 years to hide it.
      As spoon mentioned we do not know when the spot became special. Read as many of his writings and watch as many of the interviews that you can. The more you know about him the more you can think like him, LOL. I would suggest creating a file of what you learn and where you heard/read it. Remember that all the reporters do not always get the truth and are writing to make it sound good and sell their work.
      Good luck and stay safe in your searches.

      • Not Obsesse:

        Thanks for your comment. Being of the Wyoming group, I find that certain passages in FF book TTOTC are very revealing. And these passages have been mentioned many times by many searches on this blog before. I just find that the following fit perfectly to my solve. For example, on page 4, his comment’ “My church is in the mountains…….., page 125 regarding his favorite fishing spots now being filled with fisherman and tourists and p. 131, ” I knew exactly where to hide the chest….. all seem to point to his earlier days as a kid/young man never having forgotten “his spot” somewhere east of West Yellowstone. And fifteen years of clever writing and disguising the location as made it a very challenging task… in my opinion…. Thanks again.

        • Big Skip, Have you read my solve “A redneck from Texas…” in the Others Adventure section? I posted it in May. I still feel that the TC was hidden somewhere in that area. I really didn’t spend as much time as I had planned. email me at mcmulgl at yahoo dot com if you want some of my after thoughts.

  54. This info is not new, but my vantage point of what they mean has changed to reveal some important events to ff and his Rainbow or even the story of his life.

    In the Thrill book on page 51 is a photo of his father and brother at Skippy’s Graduation and a curious thing also appears inside the circle of the postmark, the #141 is inside it. We all know ff did these postmarks, 19 of which are on even page #s and that particular postmark is the only one on an odd # page, this was no accident.

    Odds of that being an accidental are a million to one.

    I have brought this up before to Dal along with the math involved ie: 141 minus 51 equals 90. Also Olga’s ashes took a 90 mile flight north, along with the Red tea (Mt) Black tea (Mt) Green tea (Mt) which are all on the Philmont Scout Ranch border and Taos Mountain ie Wheeler is clearly visible the top of all those peaks from I know I have been there

    ..Another strange “90” is the depth of the cave in Cozumel Mexico where his brother drowned. In the story of Forrest Fenn’s Legacy, we have 9 clues, 90 miles, or 90 degrees to some how we must fix a point and ultimately 90 and 9 play a role, so to go with confidence to the TC, in his poem the true obscurity or 90 and 9 becomes very important, perhaps the final location has more to do with the way ff intended us to use these references will become clear.

    How many Treasure Hunters does it take to change a light bulb?

    Only one, but the light bulb must want to change….

    • Hey tom- 141 is a flash point where liquids become combustable in air and need a warning label blazed on whatever contains them. It’s a big orange triangle with a flame inside. Class III or C. And thing that is combustable at that temp or lower in air should have that warning label. I think the banana tanks on aircraft are long as thin and run up the right side (?) I assumed that’s why this specific mark was on right side of page. But could be wrong. Kinda like the 1943 penny mark contains the word “cent” inside etc.

      • Why didn’t true North marry magnetic North?

        She didn’t like his bearing, and he was just a drifter.

        (Sorry, but I can’t begin to answer the original Y hour (your), great question.

    • Jamie, Mark n Mindy, and all you other inquiring minds, who need to know;

      If you look starting on page 109 in the “Thrill” book, where the teachers who rope their class to keep from losing em, ff uses another very curious term is, it is even in Red letters and caps, DO NOT TOUCH, that term is even more curious knowing that Green T (Mt), Red T, and Black T which is another example of several MT mountains north of Santa Fe, all in a line at the northwest border of Philmont Scout Ranch, that Mountain is affectionately callled “Touch Me Not” and these large peaks are in a line with an even larger one called “Baldy” so why, after mentioning those Mts why not a fith one, Baldy Mt?

      Let’s think about that for a moment? There seems to be more to that location than one might suspect, in fact 90 degrees, or the direction of east from there is a place known as the Yellowstone of New Mexico,

      It’s Spanish Name is Valley of Life.

      Now why would ff like a place like that? Why did he live in Santa Fe, NM after being in love with Yellowstone?

      Perhaps, this magical place with marvel views is the reason?

      Many times I have walked up on baby Elk just lying in meadows or rock outcroppings, awaiting their mothers return from day time foraging in the aspen groves. The baby elk will not run and the will let you get so close and never move, their not easy to spot and game and fish do not like people in there during calving season.

      The short cut into this breath taking place is through Amalia, NM just north of Questa, and that name AMALIA means:

      Perhaps one might spend this winter digesting every use of his poem and how it may relate to “Alone” in there. Because we already have snow here,but there is always next season..

      Tom T.

  55. Uken and Yates…I lost the “tarry” thread up there cause I had commented so long ago and not sure on any of it at all– most of my strings are not tied and that being one… My notes from then left off with me looking at Auto-antonyms (words that mean their own opposite) and i have “scan” highlighted to mean both

    to glance at or over or read hastily:
    to scan a page.

    to examine the particulars or points of minutely; scrutinize.

    It seemed to fit with a scanner (worst fit in first line) but find the blaze like in a scanner/copier with “found the blaze” “seen the light” being wise

    Tarry scant = contains “scan” and fits definition one

    Marvel Gaze = fits definition two

    Look quickly down = scan down a page with eyes

    Stanza one fit with my memoir and memory etc. And for some reason I have sojourn/truth * Sojourner Truth also circled but no clue where my mind was on that tangent

    I fit “ferry” in stanza two like that too with the fairies dancing around warm pond from book, taking ferry boat down canyon, ferry trip is short but you can’t walk. I found a “Browns Ferry” in montana and that was all I have on that as it was a passing thought with word games.

    Probably of no help but just saw you responded today so looked back to old notes and that’s all I got.

  56. Hi All,

    Just tossing this out there IMO…

    Consider; each of the clues have at least two meanings. Take any line you determine to be a clue and apply this assumption. Do you have both meanings? Do they make sense? In my solve, the two meanings are both complimentary and also reinforce that you are in the right location.

    For example:
    I can keep my secret where,
    And hint of riches new and old.

    If we take this to mean Forrest is describing the area he has chosen to hide Indulgence, what two meanings can you decipher?

    1) Forrest’s secret is the hiding spot for Indulgence,
    which is the “new riches” and,
    2) The name of the location infers old valuables are

    Well Searchers, what say ye?

    Wisconsin Mike

  57. Hello-
    Does anyone think that the 9 clues is where to start? Like maybe there is a keyword in the poem that appears 9 times. It is like a word search in each line. And maybe the theme of the poem will uncover the word. That word could help discover other elements of the poem. The basis of everything could be from something that hasn’t been discovered yet, and that is why nobody has solved the poem.

  58. this is only my opinion – I don’t know – but when you go to look for the chest – you have 6 places to go to – wwwh- hob-blaze-in the wood-heavy loads- water high—– directions – begin it where warm waters halt and take it in the canyon down not far but to far to go – put in below the home of brown- the end is ever drawing nigh just heavy loads and waters high – these are the directions that I just found to get me there the rest of the poem is just what I call extras to me don’t mean much – so why is it -hear me all- done it tired – I got 6 places to go to –6 directions to get there –

    • its my opinion that the only places you put boots on the ground is – in the wood and heavy loads – I think that the rest of – you just have to know where they are its just my opinion

    • Frank,

      I strongly disagree. In fact, “Hear me all…” is one of the most important parts of my solve. It is actually more than that; it glues it together.

      Stanza five is the only stanza where I don’t have a solid clue. It fits with past solves, which turned up empty, but not my current one.

      IMO – “listen” is the word that is key.

      Scott W.

      • hey scott w. thanks for reply its ok to disagree like I say its only my opinion – I think that stanza 3 gives you the location of the chest stanza 5 gives you the direction to where the chest is and where he hid it omo

      • Hi Scott,
        Hear me all is good, but there are other keys too. I found one that works, but I’ll share at a later date. I’m working on a new solve–but keeping my past first four clues.

    • scott- I think what I was thinking about- is the part that says – so hear me all and listen good the answers I already know that part says nothing to me – until you get to the part – if you are brave and in the wood imo

      • Frank, not to be critical, “So hear me all and listen good” is not in same stanza as “The answers I already know”: which IMO refers to why he hid it not to do with where. I think the listen good refers to the things that he has said, in the books and in the interviews. The “If you are brave and in the wood” tells me you are going somwhere that will be out of most peoples comfort zone so to speak. All of his words are important to get to know the man and how he thinks. And I don’t think that the Scrap books are written to give clues to the treasure but they do let know something about how he thinks and what is special to him. The person who finds the treasure chest is the one who can think and reason like FF. Good luck.

        • not obsessed what im referring to – is that for me – hear me all and the answers I all ready know says nothing imo until it gets to in the wood- you have to know what in the wood is its no place for the meek – go brave and in the wood this is just an opinion and that how I see it —–frank

  59. There is/was a blogger/searcher that post early on, maybe last year, about the word “Well” being used in the book multiple times. And He/She was bringing it into the chase as a perspective of “water” I believe. Who was that? I believe that as I dig deeper into all of this that they were correct. If you listen to any and all of Mr Fenn’s auto interviews… He doesn’t talk that way. He doesn’t use the word “Well” while speaking. So ask yourself why he would be using it in his writing? The only answer is as an “effect”, right?!?! But why that particular word? A clue.

  60. Huh. It would certainly be “worth the cold” if for some reason you could only find the treasure in winter.

  61. poetreasure – it has been my belief – that your efforts does mean winter or early spring – before the snow melts imo

    • If I remember correctly, F said you wouldn’t or couldn’t find it in the winter, poss covered in snow? Don’t remember exact words.
      Well…F said, “Skippy had such potential and there were so many things he would have accomplished. We should have buried him standing up.” Pg 57 TOTC
      ☆ Some Indian tribes did bury hiefs and warriors standing up!
      “Look quickly down…” in an old pueblo dry well? Kinda makes sense.


    A giveaway of a few secrets?
    Is there a line in the poem that tells the solve?

    The ending comment here just might do that.

    So why is it that I must go
    And leave my trove for all to seek?
    The answers I already know
    I’ve done it tired and now I’m weak.

    Which of the poem lines above may tell the solve?

    What if you were to read it like this:

    So “Y” is it, that “I” must go

    If “I” must go where “Y” is, you have a letter switch.
    When you switch letters it’s called anagrams.

    Mr. Fenn has never dismissed anagrams. An anagram is an anagram, not a code or cipher, etc. He has used every word around anagrams but has never stated the word anagram. And he won’t……

    A quote from Mr. Fenn:
    It’s fun to arrange words in such a way that it makes you smile at the end of a sentence.

    In 2012, Dal met with Forrest at his home. They were discussing the poem and why halt and walk did not rhyme. Here is a re-cap from Dal:

    By the way. A couple of years ago I had a discussion with Forrest about “halt” not rhyming with “walk”. I was suggesting that one of those words might not be the right word and once the real word was put in place…and rhymed…that things became much clearer…
    Forrest listened to me for a little bit and then jumped in and told me very directly, “Don’t mess with my poem.”
    So I have not tried to change his poem in any way since then…

    Forrest did state: “Don’t mess with my poem”

    It appears that what it actually means is:

    Don’t go changing an original word in my poem line with another that rhymes.

    Yet people do not know the above circumstances of how the conversation took place and are applying it to the entire poem, This seems to make searchers think that many methods are now excluded because it leaves the poem to read at face value. I see where people talk of anagrams, alphabet count, etc. then think it applies to that method which detours them in perhaps a wrong direction.

    It clearly reads above that Dal was speaking of a single word change of the original poem and Forrest directly told him ” Don’t mess with my poem”

    What were Forrest thoughts as Dal spoke of Halt & Walk not rhyming.
    I believe his thoughts were of rhyme structure. The A & L in the middle of each word Halt & Walk is a form of poetic structure, therefore rhymes. His thoughts were: Don’t mess with my poem rules.

    To be fair to fellow searchers, ” Don’t mess with my poem” needs to have an explanation of the conversation beside it so it doesn’t lead seekers astray.

    So with all of that said, here is a few possible anagrams that may change a persons mind. Anagram of line is after equal sign.

    Begin it where warm waters halt = Minelab, Garret, White, saw threw.
    Is it a coincidence that the top three selling metal detectors are in an anagram.
    Mr. Fenn said a metal detector could find it. Metal detectors see threw things.
    Is it a coincidence that this anagram even tells you what the detectors do?

    And with my treasures bold = Subtle hint word as my read
    It so happens that this is very close to what Mr. Fenn quotes of his memoir read.

    From there its no place for the meek= Meeteetse, pitchfork, realm of horn
    From there its no place for the meek= Hot leak memoir chapter, forrest fen
    From there its no place for the meek= The compiler take home, forrest fen

    The first one I revealed a couple of years ago, but the second one is bizarre!
    Is there a memoir chapter when some hot leaks?
    The third one tells you to compile anagrams and you’ll take home the prize!

    Not far but too far to walk = To far talk? Auto to brown.
    Note this is the line before the brown line.

    The end is ever drawing nigh = when drive gate shining red.
    So the end draws nigh when you see the shining red of a closed gate which would be it’s reflector. Oh! Tmi!

    If you use One across anagram solver you will see :

    Put in below the home of Brown = When the moon up it ebb or flow
    !00% scientifically true anagram.
    Online info:
    Ebb and flow (also called ebb and flood and flood drain) are two phases of the moon tide or any similar movement of water. The ebb is the outgoing phase, when the tide drains away from the shore; and the flow is the incoming phase when water rises again.

    Now if you go to one and type in Put in below the home of Brown
    and hold ” when the moon up ” The remaining letters will give you astronomy
    words like orb, orbit, wobble, wobbler right away. Coincidence?

    I have 27,000 anagrams and they tell a story. Next year remember the name, OH!

    • 27,000 anagrams don’t tell any story besides some guy went through thousands of anagrams derived from longer chains of letters and didn’t realize there will always be cool ones and horrible ones. They tell the story or a guy going throwing thousands of anagrams and picking neat ones. An interesting solution would be if a statement ONLY anagrammed to one thing. Anagramming to 5,000 possibilities and picking one that’s neat is not even statistically improbable…it’s not even on the negative half of the equation. It’s a given.

      Short words? Only a single possible anagram from a long sentence? That’ll get you on at least the same page with unusual stuff.

    • You gotta give him props on the auto one, I thought it was pretty good and I wouldn’t really call it an anagram and more than likely baked in by Mr. Fenn.

      Think about it, if the grocery store is too far to walk, what do we do? We drive it!

      Not f(a)r b(ut) t(o)o far to walk = auto

      You could also string together boarwalk…perhaps the starting point is at a boardwalk. Next we just need to figure out how long of a drive and which canyon. I think if you’ve been wise you can figure that out along with alone in there.

      Perhaps we begin at the grand prismatic spring or some other Boardwalk…after all didn’t Fenn play monopoly…cmon guys put on your thinking caps here.

      Didn’t F say that if you were at HOB, why would you want to spend gas money going back to WWWH?

      • imo – not far but to far to walk – is a place that you don’t have to go there – its just a place that you have to know where it is – its just to let you know that you have the right wwwh.

          • cory imo – I don’t think that meek is for the marker point – I think it goes with – if you are brave and in the wood I know what you are going to say- but imo nothing changes in the poem – its all straight forward

  63. From time to time, I post portions of my notes. Below is a summary of about two pages focused solely on “wise”, and how it lead me to King Solomon’s Mountain.

    Although I am not backing down from my previous post describing at least six of the clues as I see them, I would like to share a thought. Perhaps it will help someone with their solve; perhaps it won’t. I pondered on this for quite some time before I moved on.

    I was focused on the area around and south of Silverton and north of Durango at the time, and King Solomon Mountain was just sitting there

    Here goes –

    Who was the wisest man that ever lived? physical or mythical?
    What did he keep in the bronze chest?
    What was written after his death that has the title to something Fenn has given as a hint?
    What were his riches?

    King Solomon was said to be the WISEST man who ever lived.
    Solomon kept the signatures of 72 constrained spirits in a BRONZE chest.
    The KEY of Solomon – a book of magic – it contains conjurations, invocations and curses.
    There is also the “Book of Wisdom” written a couple centuries after his death that peaked my interest as well

    Anyway, I was hung up on the “key” being “Wise”, because I could directly relate this to a person, who also had a mountain named after him. In addition, I was able to relate this person to a “key” and a “bronze” chest.

    Taking it further, I was able to relate hoB to Parson Brown. Since Parson Brown is the name given to traveling preachers, the hoB might be a church, temple, shrine, etc. The only word in general language always capitalized is “God”, and that would be a good reason to capitalize “Brown”. So I associated the hoB with the temple of Solomon, the house of God, and therefore thought I should begin below King Solomon Mountain.

    Everything seemed to zero in on Solomon. Even “with my treasures bold”. “Riches new and old”. – King Solomon’s Mine.

    But I couldn’t make it work. Maybe this post will help someone. Maybe it won’t.

    However, I am still sticking to the Parson Brown theory and plan to put in just south of the Cathedral Group in the Tetons.

    Scott W.

    • Yeah possible wise connection with Solomon Mt. There. Although I don’t think it’s a strong connection. I thought he said no bible codes. Meek and go in peace can be linked to the bible as well.

      1 Kings 4:30-31
      And Solomon’s wisdom excelled the wisdom of all the children of the east country, and all the wisdom of Egypt.

      For he was wiser than all men; than Ethan the Ezrahite, and Heman, and Chalcol, and Darda, the sons of Mahol: and his fame was in all nations round about.

    • Scott, I agree with the temple part. What if hob was a kiva? F said he wasn’t a religious man, but the most spiritual one you’d meet. He’s an Indian expert, kiva and spiritualism go hand in hand.
      Playing with F’s favorite word, THINK, I got, “Treasure Hidden In North Kiva.”
      Nah, I think I’m thinking too hard without sleep!

      • Peeps, it’s not going to be in a kiva=man made.
        And not a well=if you’re 12 ft from it you’d see it. I was just rolling things around in my head…like a couple of marbles!

        • Hi Donna, I have been in the chase since May, I don’t remember seeing anything about being 12 ft from the chest and not seeing it. Do you know the statement from ff? I searched the blog but did not see it, but I may have missed it also. Thanks.

  64. i think that the key word is listen – listen to what the poem is telling you-
    so hear me all and listen good the answers I all ready know- that tells me that the answers are written in the poem.imo

  65. Mr. Fenn has said that WWWH is the most important clue, but does that mean it is the first clue, or not? Are we supposed to be looking for periods, commas, lines or just what looks like a clue? What is clue? I know a clue will lead us closer to the chest, so does that mean a clue is a physical object of some kind, and these objects are supposed to stand the test of time? Just some questions I’ve been having in my head.RC.

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