Odds n Ends About Fenn’s Treasure Hunt Part Twelve…


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702 thoughts on “Odds n Ends About Fenn’s Treasure Hunt Part Twelve…

  1. @Dal: I’m curious to hear your thoughts on the legal implications of finding the treasure within Yellowstone Park boundaries. I’m sure you’ve considered this in great detail. 🙂

    • Ex-
      I see no reason to worry about it until I find the chest. Right now I don’t even think it’s in YNP. Until it’s found I spend my brain cells on where Indulgence might be rather than the legalities of keeping it once it’s found.

      One thing at a time and in the proper order…

      • @Dal: Thanks for the reply. While part of me yearns to agree with you, I can’t help but believe clear title to the gold is vital in reducing the search area.

        For example: do you search on Native American Indian reservations? I don’t. There are too many negative legal implications of the chest being hidden there. This allows me to focus my time in areas that are more feasible with respect to legal repercussions.

        If, hypothetically, the same holds true for Yellowstone, then an otherwise high value search area becomes considerably less valuable.

        • Hey Ex
          I agree with Dal, there’s enough to keep you busy without adding the legal end. As far as writing off areas that are complicated up on the retrieval of the TC the you bring the search area down to almost 20%. If I was hiding a million dollar chest you can bet your booty that it’s going to be where there will be trouble ahead once it’s found. That’s the brilliance of the whole chase. It’s made so you have to find “all” of the poems clues to move forward and then you have to find away to get it out without being notice. Then you have to keep your mouth closed and “only” talk to Forrest and he will notify everyone else via his blog. Forrest is NOT TELLING US TO BREAK ANY LAWS, he is leaving that decision to us.
          What ever your decision is be careful and be safe.
          Timothy A.

        • Has anyone thought it is on his own land in a secret spot and we have to get the title from him. The poem says ” I give you title to the Gold” Also, the blaze is the Santa Fe
          Trail!!! Also, he could mean rocky mountains as a verb not a noun!! That really changes things up!! Just something to throw in there to giggle our brain cells a little more. I want this found and soon so we can all say “I thought of that a long time ago”!!! Just thinking, where does Mr. Forrest’s land begin; or end and it has to be close if he checks on it and could go back and get it if he felt like it. No legalities on the land he owns.. I thought about that a long time ago and use the poem to just follow and go pick it up!! It is in San Lazaro in a Kiva or a secret room that only he found and knows where it is. His land borders a lot and it is not far from there just read the directions in the poem!!! Just something to think about….It is in a rocky mountain not The Rocky Mountains everyone knows how Mr. F loves to change things around and confuse us all and make us believe untruths!!! That would be a hoot to have it on his own land and we just ask permission and then use his poem map to find it…..Has anyone asked him if it is on his own land and the pass word is arrowhead? Just messing with our already nutty noggins!!! I believe it is in plain site and we will all know it when we see that first clue up close with our own eyes!! Come on Ya’ll lets start thinking outside the box… I am really going to start looking in a new way and challenge myself and maybe go next month or August and walk right to it. I may even Call Forrest and give him a heads up to that new way of thinking and new spot that is just down the road from him on his own property…..LOL See you all in the Funny Papers Good Luck and catch me if you can…

          • The chest is more than 8.25 miles north of the most northern point of SF. So you can rule out fenn’s home. The dig site, I believe, was sold. Don’t know anything else about that. Fenn also suggested… don’t take anything of Indian land or reservations … you’ll need to look that up yourself, I don’t recall where he made the comment.

            Seriously ~ even if somehow we could eliminate private land, National parks, Indian land, state parks etc. with just National Forest left… we still don’t know if the first clue or more are within that area. And that is still a lot of area to look for something about the size of a sheet of paper.

            Taking away half the bail of hay, it’s going to be just as difficult to find that needle, if you don’t know what bail to look at in the first place.

          • Seeker-
            I don’t believe Forrest ever said “the most northern point…” that’s an interpretation..or a rumor..
            He has used both milage and chains when referring to the distance north of Santa Fe…but I have not heard “the most northern point…”

            Forrest also said that he would not further reduce the area by eliminating private land or reservation land so although I agree in spirit with the idea that Forrest probably did not hide it on reservation land, it is only speculation.

          • I’ll have a look see Dal… It was around the time Randy went missing. This may take a bit of back tracking… with all the interviews during that time.

          • Dal,
            You are correct. The comment is as follows;
            “The treasure is hidden more than 8.25 miles north of the northern limits of Santa Fe, New Mexico.”
            Where I said, ‘most northern’… My bad.
            Located in Fundamental Guidelines if others want to check it out.

          • I’ve always assumed FF meant 8.25 miles north of the Sfe CITY limits. However, he could’ve meant the county line, which is farther north by about 25 miles. OMG. The whole universe just shifted!

          • Melanie…there you go again…
            Messing with my mind…but I am pretty sure anywhere in MT is at least 66,000 links north of either Santa Fe…

          • LOL… I finally be loco to the punch… lol.

            Now all I have to do is find the other comment… which I probably screw up too.

            Thanks loco

          • Dal,
            A Columbus, OH radio Station aired this interview with Forrest on December 3rd, 2015. It’s HERE.
            3:45 into the interview … “You should not take things of Indian reservations”

            I posted;
            Fenn also suggested… don’t take anything of Indian land or reservations.

            I’ll call this one close enough for horseshoes. Thanks for keeping me on my toes

          • Seeker-
            Once again I believe you quoted him inaccurately. I also believe you took his quote out of context. These things are important otherwise you sound like you are purposely attempting to mislead people.

            I am very familiar with that interview. There is a link to it on this blog’s Media Page.
            Forrest is responding to a question about his collection of Indian artifacts and whether removing items from Indian land could bring a bad “juju” on him. His response was:
            “Well, I’m not worried about that but you should not take things off Indian reservations. The things that I’ve…the arrowheads that I found came off of private property.”

            So Forrest is not responding to a question about the chest or the treasure hunt. He is responding to a question about his collection and the inference that his artifacts came off Indian reservations.

            I think the context is very important here. In your quote you seemed to imply that Forrest said the chest is not on a reservation. I certainly don’t have a problem if that’s how you want to interpret it but that is not at all what he said and people can only make up their own mind if they have the proper quote and it’s context.

            I hope you can see my point. When quoting Forrest it is only a genuine quote if he is quoted accurately and in context…

          • Dal,

            While I agree the question was not about the chest or hunt itself… fenn added “You should not take things of Indian reservations” There is no interpretation here for the poem or the challenge, as far as I’m concerned.
            But it does suggest that the thought of removing anything from these lands is not what fenn would advise.

            That alone does not eliminate any area… but it does raise the thought for good judgement when considering ones solve if these lands are involved.

            I went back to my original post … and I can see that my wording could have implied what you are saying.
            This wasn’t an attempt on my part to say that FF said you can eliminate anything… Sometime my thought process exceeds my typing ability. If you feel that it may be misleading, [ and now I can see your point ] please remove the post.

      • Yeah as far as legalities, well my grandmother used to go pick up quartz crystals out by redwood highway in California and I had come home with a few pebbles from pebble beach because mom said it was fine and we’re American. We also owned ferrets and they are illegal (for some reason) in California? weird. There were the Iguanas my dad brought back from mexico in socks too, he even gave one to the elementary school science teacher.

        • oz-
          For the time being. I feel as though I explored and failed to find my clue #4 there…so I headed off in a different direction from clue #1…found a new clue #2 and #3 and am now searching for the blaze in a different area.

          This direction feels better…the clues feel stronger…more clear and definite… I really like my new hoB. But I’m just poking at things in the dark…no evidence that I’m right…no neon sign declaring that the treasure is “HERE”. Just good old fashioned exploring…having a good time.

  2. The Poem & a good map is ALL YOU NEED! The book contains only HINTS- not clues! This is NOT my opinion. That is fact stated by Fenn himself. I think some feel the need to manufacture clues outside the poem because they can’t understand why they can’t solve the poem. FF said the poem and a map is all that is needed. So if a “hint” from the book cannot confirm info that already exists in the poem, then I think it is not a correct hint. The correct info is in the poem! My focus is on the poem. Yes, I believe I have found hints in the book. But I think the hints only serve to confirm possibilities we see in the poem first.

    • “There are hints in my book that will help you with the clues, but a clue will point you toward the treasure chest and a hint will just help you with the clues, if you can understand that.”

      “…I’ve said searchers should go back to the poem so many times that I don’t want to say it again here. ff ”

      “…All of the information you need to find the treasure is in the poem. The chapters in my book have very subtle hints but are not deliberately placed to aid the seeker. Good luck in the search. f”

      ““There are nine clues in the poem, but if you read the book (TTOTC), there are a couple…there are a couple of good hints and there are a couple of aberrations that live out on the edge.”


      I placed these word from fenn to aid a thought that the book could have more to do with the clues than simple hints. { I personally don’t think this is the case, but if one keeps an open mind, it is possible the poem refer the reader, to use the book }

      A very simple reading in a poetic manor of stanza 5 and 6 could explain the answers he already knows is the work of the book itself. Tells us to hear and listen as instruction to; your effort will be worth the cold… to simple mean the metal of the trove. If you are brave [not fearless, but bold to take on this challenge] and in the wood [ referring to the book made from wood ].
      Fenn also stated that … you don’t need to read my, you need to decipher the poem [ adding ] the book will help.

      How is it that he talks of the book as reference, hints not deliberately place to aid the seeker, yet keep repeating to use the book? even after he states; you don’t need to read the book.

      Could it be fenn doesn’t want to give out the information that the book does hold the answers to the clue, but doesn’t want to say that straight-out because the poem may explain this? Thinking alone the same lines as he doesn’t want to tell us buried or not.

      @ connie, I don’t think fenn uses hint and clue interchangeably. That implies they are one in the same. But it is possible that the way to find the answer to the clues within the poem are only found in the book … and no where else? Because the poem “might” be telling us just that.

      My personal belief is that the book can help, but only if you have an idea of what to look for… we need to understand the poem first for that process to reveal those hints. I also think the poem tells us how to read itself and the reason fenn repeats to go back to the poem… that is where all the information to locate the chest is.

      However, if I’m gonna be honest with myself… it could be either way.

      • There are so many seemingly red herrings in the book and he’s said that you ONLY need the poem. So if your solution requires the book then I think you can exclude it. ie: if you feel his assaulting smell from the gravy is Sulphur Hot Springs, and COLORado is his reference to all the colors….you can do that without the book.

      • The thing I keep scratching my head over is the poem is in the book….. so every clue in the poem is also in the book which means the book holds just as many clues due to that. And correct me if I’m wrong but wasn’t to poem first published in the book?

        • @ Count
          Not true Count. The clues as they are written in the poem never come up like that in the books. In the books f is just giving us a few hints not a lot so that we are able to check our work from the poem. IMHO

          Timothy A.

      • Seeker,
        If I’m not mistaken F wrote the poem first and then wrote the book in a very short period of time…didn’t he say something like 6 weeks?

        If this is the case, and the hints weren’t “deliberately placed to aid the searcher”, then doesn’t this preclude the text in the book referring back to the poem? If the book deliberately/directly refers back to the poem (or visa versa) then this statement is false because there would be a deliberate connection.

        I personally think that the “subtle” nature of the hints means that certain individual words are used in the book that could hint where the the starting location is but they are not used in the context of the place. If you pick out the correct words then you might gain insight.

        So as a hypothetical example: He tells us a story about YNP. The treasure isn’t in YNP, but perhaps the word Yellowstone is a subtle hint with another meaning. Not saying this is the right word but I think you get the implication.

        Bottomline is I currently believe that the hints are so subtle that they are very hard to recognize…perhaps diverse words from different stories that combine in an unusual way. I don’t think story themes or places that are mentioned in the book will provide help.

        You said: “How is it that he talks of the book as reference, hints not deliberately place to aid the seeker, yet keep repeating to use the book? even after he states; you don’t need to read the book.”

        I think this is his way of keeping people engaged, or holding out some hope that there is something helpful in the book. There probably is but not what people want it to be IMO.

        • I concur. The problem with the book is 147 pages of possibilities and if we add illustrations, photos, quotes from other authors… the list of possibilities keep growing. Sure a little of something is better then nothing, as we have been told. I think the book confuses more than helps at this point. IMO the poem needs to be understood [ note that doesn’t mean solved ] to at least help see what a hint is and how it helps with the clues.

          • @Seeker
            No Seeker. Read what I said be low here to Puzzled. For example: Lets say that f tells us a story about Yellowstone National Park. I don’t believe it’s there BUT I look at the words:
            Yellow KEEP
            Stone KEEP
            National NOPE
            Park NOPE
            Then I cross out what does me no good. Then for the Blaze I say what can last 10,000 years or more without to much of a change. Then I set a side those words.
            I think whats in a Rainbow color – Yellow.
            Yes yellow comes in various colors and when it has water on it it changes a little orangeish. Know, What has water that would show the color (somewhat) yellow to a deep orange? Stone – Marble, Granite and limestone and sand stone.
            Then I have the clue that I’m looking for:
            A stone that has some yellowish to brownish showing or running down it. When I find it I head to my geographical map of the state that I have chosen.
            IT’s not rocket science but as f has said may times: ” Imagination is more important than Knowledge.” IMHO

            Timothy A.

        • When in doubt, I always go back to Forrests words:

          Forrest has said, “Here is what I would do. Read my book in a normal manner. Then read the poem over and over and over, slowly – thinking. Then read my book again, this time looking for subtle hints that will help solve the clues.” f.

          Doing this, I spotted something in a couple of photo’s that caught my eye. I then spotted something in an illustration or two.

          I also found sentences that all supported what the poem had led me to.

          When in doubt – follow Forrest’s advice.

          Just my opinion – STAY SAFE and GOOD LUCK to all searchers.


          • JD,
            Obviously you are not the only one doing this but just out of curiosity, how do you rationalize using photos or illustrations?

            These things were deliberately included and far from subtle. The illustrations were done by another person so any “suggestions” to the illustrator by Fenn would have been deliberate and could be information for the illustrator to use in his own search. If I was an illustrator for a treasure hunt book and the author told me to change a sketch to reflect something very specific that would certainly get my attention.

            I can kind of see how something in a photo might be used if taken out of the context of the story the photo directly relates to. However, if you are using the storyline with the photo or the place shown in the photo, then I think this fails the subtle/deliberate test. And if you are saying the two photos point to the same thing then we’re back to something very deliberate.

            Of course this is just my logical opinion.

          • Colokid;

            My photo’s relate directly to the story. They give validity to the story, and I am sure that that is why Forrest had them included…to provide validity to the story, and not place there deliberately to aid a searcher.

            Regarding the illustrations, my thoughts are much the same. Forrest could have requested that a drawing be made in support of a particular story. Whether he asked that specific item be included in the drawing, that supported the story line, would not be seen as a red-flag by the illustrator. As long as the illustration (like the photo argument) as long as the illustration supports the storyline, that was the intent, not the intent to aid a searcher. I see no conflict.

            When Forrest asked the illustrator to draw a depiction of “something” – the request was for inclusion in a “memoir” – NOT a treasure quest book. Only after the poem was included did the “memoir” become an aid in a treasure quest.

            Sure, once the book was published, the illustrator might ask himself why a certain thing was “needed” in a particular illustration, but I can ask myself the same question, and I was not the guy that drew the picture.

            Just my opinions – but GOOD questions Colokid.

            Good luck, and STAY SAFE


          • Advice from Forrest: you will know before you go, otherwise it’s a good vacation. How many ignore this?

          • Kedar’s Mom,

            Is this what you’re referring to?
            “I warned that the path would not be direct for those who had no certainty of the location beforehand, but sure for the one who did.” f

            How about this statement…
            “… many people have found the first clue but they didn’t know it. Until someone finds  the treasure they will not know for sure that they have discovered the first clue.”

            Now, while common sense says if you don’t have the first… [ and as far as fenn has repeated the first clues must be nailed down] …you not going to have much luck with the rest of the clues.

            But that comment also says you won’t “know for sure” until someone find the chest.

            A bit of a conundrum don’t ya think?

          • Seeker,

            That’s exactly what I way saying. Falls on deaf ears though. It’s a time of patience for me. I know you’re gonna have thoughts, but the clues do not have to be solved in order, imo.

          • Mom, may I call you mom?

            That is an interesting statement you said;
            ‘but the clues do not have to be solved in order, imo.’
            Fenn did say something to the effect, if you know where hoB is why worry about wwwh? in regards to reverse engineering the clues.
            The big question is, how will we know for sure we have the correct later clue[s]? The thing fenn most comments on is the importance of the first clue… what is it that we need to “know” about that clue? Something tells me…imo… that without the knowledge of knowing what the first clue means/refers to… the other clues are just dust in the wind.

          • Seeker,

            I’m just gonna keep my secrets. : ) If one can figure out what the clues and hints are and understand what they mean….the pieces of the puzzle fit. I know I don’t have it, but I tried….and learned. I prefer KM or Kedar’s Mom. Have a great day fellow searcher.

          • JD,
            Then in your mind the distinction is not whether something was deliberately placed as long as F’s original intent was not to aid the searcher?

            So if I understand correctly, you are saying that it played out something like: F wanted to tell a story, he added supporting material (photos/drawings), and then after the fact he realized there was a hint of some kind in the story that directly provides a hint to solving the poem, but because he didn’t “originally” add it intending help the searcher the subtle/deliberate clause is not violated?

            While this is possible semantic twist, I don’t think F plays this way and I would still disagree.

            Forrest had no way of knowing how tough his clues would be to solve. Because of this he needed to error on the difficult side. It is hard for me to believe that he allowed non-subtle material (his stories/photos/drawings) to contain *directly* related information to solve the clues. His use of the phrase “aberrations out on the edge” tells me that the link between book material and poem clue is gossamer thin. I think a searcher is only going to grasp the discreet connections when they are truly aligned with F’s thought process.

            I’ve encouraged people repeatedly to set a treasure hunt for your search buddies as an aid to understanding the process F went through. You will be incredibility amazed at: how easy it is to construct very difficult/impossible clues without much effort, and how easy it is to torment the searcher with subtle hints that seem meaningful to you but mean nothing to him.

          • @Colokid – I guess it depends on one’s interpretation of “deliberately placed”. If I study the word “deliberate”, my opinion shifts a bit with the different possibilities. Indeed if I study ANY of the words Fenn uses, my opinions shift when I find other meanings I had not previously known or considered.

            Trying to stay open to such possibilities, I can see an interpretation of Fenn’s use of the words “deliberately placed” might be in comparison to his poem. His poem has hints that are deliberately placed, as in carefully thought out, sequential, contiguous, and in order of directions needed to follow. I am in the camp that believes he has hints throughout the book (as well as in many but not all of his media messages), but not in order of directions to follow, not contiguous, not placed deliberately in sequential order to aid the seeker to get to the chest. Rather, I feel he has a bag of synonyms to pull from and weaves them into his communications. In my interpretation, these hints typically refer to one or more of the locations from the poem, or things about the area the poem refers to, or ideas and themes needed to shift thinking for how to interpret, such as (of course in my opinion) piracy, Spanish, seasons, center / Central / middle / mean / focus, and perhaps people related to the history of the area or the poem’s themes. Another theory within linguistics that I am developing is that Fenn’s mentions of and allusions to bells and weathervanes may (among other things) be alluding to cockney, a word and concept that encapsulates a method and style of communicating.

            When he mentions subtle hints, I am using the approach to studying deeper when finding uncommon word uses or nuances (“five squirts”, “feeling blessed”). I also focus on when he calls for more attention to reflect on something, such as when he asks a question (“Can you believe that?”, “What do you think?”, “How else can a person write a book?”). And also I specifically focus on when he uses synonyms of homonyms of the word “clue”, such as “nail” (“fingernail”, “thumbnail”, “brad” as in Brad Pitt in Scrapbook 115, or “Peggy” as in peg), “knoyl” (as in knoyledge) and “ball of string”. This is similar to what is achieved with cockney.

            Just describing my thought process. I’m not intending to start a debate of wright or Rong.

          • Hello All. Can anyone point me to where there was an illustration drawing of a young person walking along a road carrying a stick?

            Thank you and good luck all. NOTE: My clues are in odds and ends eleven accessible through this blog’s home search page.

      • @Seeker
        No Seeker, You are a 100% correct. As you figure out the clues in the poem you can go back to the books to find specific hints that will tell you that you are correct with that clue in the poem. I used f hints in the book to double check my answers from the Poem.
        Timothy A IMHO see my rebuttal to puzzled it will tell you more.

      • My guess is that you can find the correct starting point in the poem. If you’re so lucky to figure out a hint or two from TTOTC then they vector in to the same general starting area. But you don’t need the hints they are just extra confirmation.

    • @Puzzled
      I’ll agree, in sorts. I have finally been able to finish my solve and get ready to head back out. But to make sure I was correct I used certain information from the books and translated it into the answers that fit the poem and not my solve. According to the poem f is telling the truth. The answers are in the poem to be deciphered. I am now working on how to attack getting to the chest again and then how to get the chest out IF (big if) I am correct. It has taken me almost 3 years to finalize this so that everything works like the poem is written. Stanza by Stanza.
      I’ve already eaten my fair share of crow pie so another piece won’t hurt. I am not saying that I am 100% but I am 95%. I was close on our last trip but I had to decide what would a wiser man do at this point? Low on H2O. So my wife convinced me we needed to go back and come and try another day, so we did, leave. It hurt to be so close and I mean HURT but she was right.
      Stay with the poem Puzzled, I am telling you and everyone else that the answers are there in the poem. Once you get it you will set back and laugh at how easy it was.
      Best of Luck, It’s there I promise 95% and so does Forrest 100%. I just can’t get back there for a little while from Illinois.

      Be safe, Enjoy BOTG it’s beautiful but a lot of walking – in.

  3. I think that highway in between Casper and Shoshoni is pretty important. I don’t think the treasure is there, but it appears to be at about the magnetic declination of the greater Wyoming search area.

    Now on another note. a car could be viewed as a “vehicle” and words can also be viewed as a vehicle for a thought or idea or concept so I just wanted to bring that up. Now with the whole ordeal about running beside the car and getting out once, he could very well mean that it is about that degree of declination, only it’s sort of mexican or cheap, when it comes to a square and you might have to bribe it twice one way or the other.

  4. In fact I’m convinced that TTOTC is loaded with clues and I can’t right share all of them with you but I can say that TFTW probably is too. Anyway there’s a lot of research for me to do and I think I already have a general area the treasure is in I just need to find the exact spot. I’m guessing it’s between the area of 9 and 13 degrees magnetic declination on the map as of the time it was hidden.

    • @kevin, 9 to 13 pretty much sums up the Rockies. What suggests magnetic declination to you and how would you use it to narrow down the field? I’m not quite following the Long Road Home reference you are making.

  5. Well I think I found the blaze and what I can say is that it’s like four things, features in the ground that are square and round.

    • I think it’s about 1000 ft across or more and you ought to look because I’m not going to be there for about a month or more but it’s like a postage stamp that’s worth a couple of cents extra and some xp points.

    • The best I can tell you without giving it away completely is that you’ll have to look for that place that Forrest burned the map, with Donnie, not where the map is of, with an ATV or something, and remember to look out for lions and tigers and smoky the bear.

    • And I’m just being honest and going by the book and what it says about throwing you off by not telling the whole truth. In fact I’m not sure if I ever will tell the whole truth about where the treasure is I hope I’m right, and I’m really growing more and more certain that I am right the second time reading the book it’s just more supporting.

      Another thing, I’m replacing the head gasket on my VW and the head bolts are supposed to come in the mail today, and last night as I was up late past midnight reading Forrest’s book there was a tree frog outside my window for hours, last time I checked before the sun came up it must have been about 4 o clock and he had a bug partially sticking out of his mouth. But I still have to figure out why the camshaft is ticking on my cylinder head it’s only SOHC and I checked the head with a square and it looks square so I’m not really sure. My dad is having me remove one of the heads from his land rover and said he’s going to buy me the parts for my cam for the effort. <~~ If that means anything to you in your hunt!

      • “And I’m just being honest and going by the book and what it says about throwing you off by not telling the whole truth.” – kevin

        Sorry, but I rarely find moments that quoting Star Trek isn’t nerdy, so…

        Spock: “Admiral, if we go by the book, like Lieutenant Saavik, hours would seem like days.”

        Kirk: “I read you, Captain. Let’s have it.”

        Spock: “The situation is grave, Admiral. We won’t have main power for six days. Auxiliary power has temporarily failed. Restoration may be possible in two days…by the book, Admiral.”


        Kirk: “By the book! Regulation 46-A, ‘If transmissions are being monitored during battle…'”

        Saavik: “‘…no uncoded messages on an open channel.’ …You lied.”

        Spock: “I exaggerated.”

        Kirk: “Hours instead of days, Saavik, now we have minutes instead of hours.”

    • Remember
      * “The older you get, the smarter your parents become.”
      also “Movies lie to you.”

      Now I gotta get off here, my dad is on skype with his girlfriend in the Philippines.

    • Kevin — you’ve probably had the book less than 48 hours and so are still going through the Fenn “infatuation/obsession phase”, posting at a mile a minute. A gentle suggestion: slow down a bit, think, reflect. You are not going to solve the poem in a week or a month, nor is the chest likely to be found this year. A lot of very bright people have been working on this for half a decade, yet the chest’s location remains elusive.

      • Zapped, chest’s location or proper effort lacking. After all, on Jenny’s site he stated something about many a good solve is lost due to poor execution. So, it could be either and probably not solved and retrieved this year.

        • crow-
          I think this blog and others are filled with many “good” solutions to the poem. Just not the right one. Many of the solutions are fascinating, interesting, clever, funny, enticing…you pick the adjective…just incorrect…but that doesn’t mean they aren’t “good”.

  6. Kevin;

    You might keep in mind that this is a Blog to discuss matters relating to the chase, not a “chat room” to discuss VW heads and camshafts etc.

    Just my opinion


    • Haha JD he is giving you a clue in his roundabout redneck way. I think maybe he is from Colorado or Washington somewhere where the overuse of a certain substance is perfectly acceptable

    • I think Kevin was trying to be clever with an analogy… But for the life of me, I don’t get it.

      • Well you’re right, and the same kind of clues are in the book. But again, if you ask me if I’m smart I guess I should reply that I don’t suspect anything. Maybe they aren’t clues.

        • Kevin –

          Had a hard time telling where you were going with all of this……..until the car parts. I do believe this could be a hint – and I will say it – imo it’s to front wheel drive. TTOTC – pg 66. 64, 55,110,119 and more than a few scrapbooks about cars. Happy Hunting!

        • I get what your implying… for example;

          When I was ready to put the olive jar that contained my autobiography and two of my hairs in the treasure chest I studied the lid. It was made of tin coated steel, which is not easily oxidized in air or water. Over time those characteristics can break down.
          Although I am not ready to say the treasure is not in water, I certainly didn’t want moisture to enter the jar. So I melted a chunk of microcrystalline wax to the point that it started smoking, which meant it was at its thinnest viscosity. Then I dipped the jar in the molten wax deep enough to cover the lid and part of the jar, and held it there for several seconds. I wanted the wax to seal the threads on both the lid and the jar, but I didn’t want the heat to break the glass. After it cooled for a minute or so and the wax hardened, I repeated the process two times, increasing the wax thickness on the lid. The wax was petroleum based and won’t evaporate or deteriorate. When cold, it becomes brittle. That’s why I wanted the threads on the lid and jar clogged.
          All I know are the facts, if you want the truth go next door to the psychology department.f

          First explains about water and moisture and how the jar is protected from his process, adds he doesn’t want to say the chest is not in water, and adding he didn’t want heat to break the glass jar. continues to explain the sealing process and adds… when cold, it became brittle and the reason for a jar with a threaded lid.

          IMO there are at least two different conversations going in this Q&A answer. 1) the process of protecting the material in the jar 2) hinting that temperature was thought out with the hiding place. Not too hot, not too cold… the Goldy Locks scenario.

          Although he’s not ready to say the chest is not in water, imo he did say just that. The place the chest lays in wait should have a relative climate control if you will. Heat such as direct prolong sunlight could break glass… anyone that had to replace a windshield that sat in the hot sun for 8 hours can tell you. Prolong cold could make the seal fail as well. Does this answer give only information about the subject of sealing the Jar or is there two conversations going on at the same time.

          IMO Kevin you’re correct to at least assume the possibility there is more than one thing gong on within the poem. But with a 147 pages of the same type of writings… that is a whole lot of options to choose from without having an idea to what the poem is intended to tell us.

          • No you’re completely right on some level I’ll agree with you, it just depends on what level we’re talking about. I would consider that a smaller picture.

          • This was one of Fenn”s comments that really stood out for me. It was informative and very telling at the same time. It seemed to have an unspoken “nod” added in for good measure…whether it was intentional or not remains to be seen. Not much was really ever debated about this one it seems…

          • Actually after reading through the book almost a second time in the last 24 hours I get the impression on some level that Forrest is quite mystified and yet somewhat proud of himself that he managed to hide it so well in front of everyone while writing a book.

          • I haven’t yet read TFTW but am considering getting it just in case I’m leaving out some small step I know there was one point when I was reading that it almost seemed like it was something to do with actually finding the treasure and what to expect sort of after having found it, and I’m not sure if it was that or there is something I’m missing.

          • Accidentally commented to another reply. Meant to reply here:

            “by it i mean TTOTC” that I was reading.

  7. I do not normally ask questions and it does not help with my solve but is something to contemplate; does anyone know the date of the last time someone saw the chest and its contents other than Forrest? Did Forrest actually say he hid it around 2010 to 2011? After all he started this idea shortly after 1988 didn’t he.

    • He has said that he hid it when he was 79 or 80. I know someone told me they saw it in July of 2010. So did he wait till he was 80 for some reason?

      • Thanks Stephanie,
        Yes that is what I thought as well but was not sure and thanks for the info of last person seeing it u was fully unaware.

    • There’s a bit of a side mystery in the timeline with a gap of seven or eight years that isn’t accounted for.

      1988 – He was diagnosed with cancer in 1988 and the book suggests the original idea came at that time.

      1989 – According to the book, 1989 is when he recovered from cancer. This isn’t said directly, but it says that he recovered two years after his father died (1987).

      1996 – According to multiple quotes, a visit from his friend Ralph Lauren inspired hiding the treasure chest. Hemisphere Magazine says that this occurred in 1996.

      2003 – Forrest’s idea to place a treasure chest with his bones inspires his friend, Douglas Preston’s book The Codex, and sources say that he was looking for an author to write his biography around this time, so a more or less fully formed idea existed by this point.

      He’s stated that he hid the treasure chest 20 years after his illness. Book says he recovered in 1989. That would suggest he hid it in 2009.

      Sources seem to suggest he still had it in his vault around 2010. He says officially he hid it sometime in 2009 or 2010.

      One or more times he’s said that he hid it 15 years after his illness, that would be 2003 or 2004, unless 1989 is a mistake and his illness lasted through the mid-90s.

      He regularly says the poem took him 15 years to write. So if he hid it 2010, when he started writing the poem more or less matches the Hemisphere date of 1996.

      Long story short, there’s a gap between 1989 and 1996 in which there seems to be no activity related to the concept of hiding a treasure chest, and some fuzzy dates occur throughout the story.

      Of course you wouldn’t expect to have a perfect timeline in a treasure hunt. He has also mentioned that his wife doesn’t know within eighteen months of him hiding it because he didn’t want the exact date to be known by anyone.

      • Wow thanks Jeremy P,
        Nice detailed info. Thanks for all your effort. Somewhere I read and I guess interpreted it wrong that he devised this whole plan while ill. Sometime during his illness a friend wanted to buy an Indian artifact off the wall of his library and that is what ignited the whole idea of “we’ll just wait and see if I can’t take it with me”. From there he ask several friends of his that are authors to write his memoir and stories. He would then insert his poem in there as well. All his friends thought that was a crazy but at same time magnificent idea they just could not be part of the drama. After all it includes a man resting his bones in nature somewhere right!! So then he decided well I will do it myself. I for one am delighted he did. It allowed us to see him how he truly is WORD for WORD. I had asked last time chest seen by a friend because I was just curious if it was not possibly hidden much sooner.
        Jeremy sir you are very knowledgable so somehow I was way off base at some or most of my points. Thanks again you are very kind.

        • Thanks, ACE! I think you have most of it correct, as far as I understand The Legend of Forrest Fenn.

          I think the dates are meant to be fuzzy. The friend who wanted to buy the artifact, that’s Ralph Lauren. Was the visit in 1996 as Hemisphere Magazine said it was? I dunno. Was he still ill, just gotten over his illness, or had he been over his illness for seven years by then? I dunno.

          The book does say he came up with the original plan while ill. The reason I looked at the timeline is because I read “1996” and thought seven or eight years of living with cancer is a long time. I don’t know what the norm is for that sort of thing. Here’s what the book says on when he recovered:

          “I recovered after having planned my future up to one detail short of the final beir… on my own terms as my father had done two years earlier.”

          So 1987 plus two years is 1989.

          Do any of the dates matter? I’m going to guess probably not, ultimately, but maybe they might help a little, but really I don’t know.

          • I was just curious as well. No I do not think dates matter. I was just trying to piece the process together. In 1988 he felt he only had a year to live. I sure with that in his mind he needed to act fast. During g this time(1988 to 1989) would have been the time for discussion with his friendly authors. Plus the time to pack his chest fool of the goods. Now as far as him getting better then sitting on the idea to go ahead and give us an opportunity to seek it is a mystery as well. That is why I was wondering last person and date seen. Again was just curious. Thanks again

    • I think there are some people who have teamed up. Not publicly though. Most people wouldn’t want to give away their info as others in a team would just go get it possibly and leave them out. I think that’s been the consensuses is trusting others. I know that’s been my issue…

      • Only “one person can keep a secret” issue then.

        It is rather interesting that there are sites like this that discuss the secrets at arms length and around bushes.

      • Interesting. That is assuming that one person gave their real information and not just tested someone to see if they were honest about teaming. Seems like people get a clue (so they think) and run with it. Yup, I am guilty of producing interesting information that would lead nowhere in particular.

  8. There is a new post on Jenny’s MW site. Here it is:

    Forrest, I’m interested to know what was the reaction of both your parents, in detail, when you announced you were off with your buddy into the mountains for the adventure? Cheers. James

    For whose adventure James, and what mountains and which buddy? Your question could fit any one of several episodes I experienced during my youth.

    Generally speaking, my parents were wrought up with frontier spirit and encouraged me to run free if my pursuit appeared wholesome. There were no soccer moms when I was a teenager and my parents never worried for my safety.f

    Interesting that Forrest used the word “Wrought” – meaning shaped.

    Any thoughts?


    • Actually “wrought” is the perfect word to use… It indicates the parents time period they were brought up in, how that shaped/molded there lives, and is now being passed down to the children… to embed the same type of spirit for the outdoors [ frontier life ] even though they live, work, go to school in a township/city. One of the reasons fenn stated he start the challenge… to get folks off the sofa and away from the modern world and what it is doing to kids… influencing generations to come.

    • That’s interesting because this description could fit the forest in general. And Forrest starts with “Generally” … “wrought”

      If you’re talking about “Looking for Lewis and Clark” does anyone know where Lewis and Clark went? Nowadays up there it doesn’t seem too dangerous, it’s only a few miles from city pretty much anywhere you go so I think it’s hard to get lost if you have some kind of transportation. Especially airplanes but also ATVs or snowmobiles or horses and such.

  9. To me, it is obvious that James, the questioner, was referrng to the story, “Looking for Lewis and Clark” Pg 59 of TTOTC, and the friend was Donnie.

    We all know that Jake Faulker and Dys are searching this same area, or near-by areas. Is Forrest encouraging them to adopt the Frontier Spirit?

    Is he enouraging them to “Run free” if their pursuit is “Wholesome”?

    And lastly, warning then to BE SAFE!

    Who knows? Certainly not I.

    Just a few “wholesome” thoughts.

    GOOD LUCK JAKE, Dys and ALL searchers – STAY SAFE


  10. Man this place reminds me of those galleries with the Hopi Indian kachina dolls and all the signs that say “DO NOT TOUCH THE ACTUAL LOCATION”

    • Over here at home I’m responsible for touching that thought but nobody believes me if I do, my dad or my brother and two sisters if we discuss it, but they just act like they don’t know anything and they don’t suspect anything about avail of treasure. In fact it’s quite the opposite, I often hear there is no treasure. So I can tell it looks like it hasn’t been touched.

  11. Seeker,
    From the the previous Odds And Ends chapter, you said the following…

    “I almost forgot… you’ll need to dive twice… remember a 79 or 80 year old man had to make two trips with a 42lb chest… maybe a snorkel would help or a come along wench. Or maybe join the tin man and lion to visit the wizard.”

    You may want to look up “winch” and the word you used “wench.” Let me know what you think. A come along wench, hmmm…

    • lol, I Kan spill reely, it’s my typing that needs work. Trust me, I had another fault in typing out Huck Finn once… wasn’t pretty.

  12. JeremyP,

    I have an off topic question if you read this… you posted an interview recently with FF, I can’t recall if it was on 9 clues or odds and ends… If you have that link would you post it again or you can e-mail if you like… thanks

    • I found it Jeremy… thanks again for posting it. It wasn’t the one I thought I needed.

      • If you’re talking about the one right before Fennboree, it was on a local radio station. If you still need it, I can find it.

  13. All,

    Looking for some advice:

    I’m almost there with my next solve, I have a great WWWH halt, an obvious real canyon down (it’s on marked on a map) a very obscure hidden “Brown” that I have verified through actual living family members. A creek to go up that could be considered no place for the meek and that one cannot paddle up (cannot say why would give away too much). I have very good connections with “look quickly down”, “Brave and in the wood” and “Hear me all”. I have made several (more than 4) subtle hint connections from TTOTC that I admit can be considered confirmation bias but they are VERY VERY good, never mentioned before and can be loosely connected back to Fenn (I say loosely because as I have emailed him these ideas but he won’t respond as well all know, but he might still be a little steamed at me since I burned his book) To top it all off I have seen mention of this area on the web but the searcher didn’t understand the significance of where they were because they didn’t mention all the possible previous clues leading them to this area which leads me to believe this may have caused Forrest to mention the 3 possible four clues solved but he couldn’t be certain.

    Here is what I’m having difficulty identify in this area:

    Heavy loads, water high and of course the blaze.

    I have several potential water highs such as:

    Water falls, rapids, high water marks, steam, and deep pools.

    I have a few heavy loads ideas:

    Large boulders in creek, sedimentary loads in creek and glacial remnants or moraine.

    Blaze potentials:

    Trail of clues or an obvious geographical marker.

    Marvin Fenn has taught us all the the greater part of knowlege is knowing what is not worthy of knowing. So if we remove the obvious from the poem then what we are left with is what is worth knowing. So what do we already know that is mention in the poem.

    He did it alone and only Forrest knows the location.

    He went in one of the four states NM, CO, WY and MT.

    He wanted to get people outside and away from their electronic devices.

    He thought he was going to die.

    The treasure is out there and who finds it keeps it.

    I need some assistance in filling in the gaps as far as fresh ideas on water high, heavy loads, blaze. Obviously you sharing ideas on these possible clues shouldn’t reveal your search area so we should be ok if you are willing to share.

    Add/edit: I realize some are hesitant to share and I understand this but, I’ll tell this much that if did locate indulgence I would first share the solve with those in the search community not some media outlet that doesn’t have skin in the game.

    Thanks in advance.


      • All,

        JD, emailed me and mentioned that the heavy loads could possible refer to the 42/44 pound chest that Forrest hid. Now while this isn’t a new idea, it did spark (hehe, thinking about a burnt book) a new thought on why did Forrest pluralize “loads” in the poem (water high in the same line is singular), are we to assume that the creek that we cannot paddle up has more than one type of load? What are the types of loads we may see up the creek? Are we also to assume that there is only one type of “water high” up this same creek? So maybe we should deduct that there can be several types of heavy loads but only one clearly defined type of water high.

        Your thoughts on this will be much appreciated!


        • One interpretation I have had linger for “heavy loads” does include:
          – the carrying of the chest or in two trips – one load of the chest and one load of the treasure.
          – “loads” of fish swimming – knowing that once they are caught – can become “heavy loads”
          – in a metaphoric sense, one could also look at a large amount of water rushing towards the seeker. The seeker actually sees a lot of water in the region of the blaze or trail or path.

          As you can see, there can be multiple choices for the region Indulgence resides in, one will need to be “boots on the ground” for this part of their journey, as GE does not include the details that could be applied to this “clue”.


  14. Well, I’m Back….I ascended 9,575 ft. in 2 days, not bad if you’re looking to kill yourself.I traveled over 800 miles one way….got to my spot almost 10,000 ft. in elevation. I was going to do what my brother told me to do, take it easy and not lift a finger for 2 days to get use to the thin air, and I was doing okay when I got there, no problem. I was there for 15 mins., decided to get a case of water out of my truck, not realizing at the time that took energy to lift 30 pounds of water, I lifted it waste high and I almost dropped to the ground. My blood pressure shot to the moon..I put the water down, and told myself, here we go! I was up there by myself, and right away I thought that I would descend down the mountain about 3,000 ft, but I had my blood pressure medication in my car and some Xanax, I took 1 and 4, fell asleep for about 2 hours, then realized when I woke up that I felt okay, but my ears were buzzing, which meant only one thing, that my blood pressure was very high, at that point I made the decision to go down the mountain before it got dark, and just go home, it wasn’t worth losing my life over. I was fighting a losing battle with thin air, I couldn’t give my body the oxygen that it needed. As I was leaving I could see my ten acres right in front of my car, and my hidey place was only just 500 ft. away from me at a very gradual elevation, and there was nothing that I could about it. At that point if I had walked about half way up that grade, I would have dropped dead, either from a stroke, heart attack, or I would have converted into A-Fib, which I have had twice before, take your pick. All I could do was drive down, I descended 3,000 ft. and I felt as good as new…but I wasn’t about to go back up. So, I’m either going to try again next year, lose about 78 pounds to get myself down to 200lbs., maybe only go up during the day and stay down at night, but without trying to lift 30 pounds of water…trying to acclimate to the altitude a little at a time. Or, never go again, and just post my solve on this Blog and Chase Chat…I’m not making an agreement with anyone, because agreements don’t work, it’s better just to give it away, and let someone else deal with 10,000 ft. I’m really not worried about the gold, I just want credit for solving the poem, IMHO. That’s my reward. I did exactly what Fenn told us to do, “To Think, and To Analyze.” I figured out the whole poem, IMHO, and I couldn’t make it the last 500 ft. I’m home now, breathing air with 21 percent oxygen in it, and it never felt so good. I will think about giving my solve away….it’s logical and based on science.

    • Hello Gordon Lightfoot. I’m sorry to hear things didn’t go according to plan. I’m glad to hear you made it back home safely. Take care of yourself.

    • Wow Gordon-
      You made the right decision although a very difficult one I am certain. Maybe next time you could take a younger relative with you and make them get the treasure and put it in the truck…then you can drive down a few thousand feet and take pics…

  15. FYI:
    There should be a couple of new media stories coming out soon…
    Fernanda Santos from The New York Times interviewed Forrest and went on a search with Cynthia a few days ago. That story should be out any day.

    Great Big Story is doing a piece on Forrest as well. They are a pretty entertaining video outlet with a unique twist on story telling. They are owned by CNN.

    Look for the NYT story sometime this week..
    Look for the GBS story in the near future…

    • Hi Dal — a quick search of the NY Times website today still isn’t showing a Forrest Fenn story when searching either Forrest Fenn or Fernanda Santos…

    • Very nice Anna,
      If you click on my name & contact me, we can share more.
      I think we are on the same page.
      Very nice people at Eldridge.

      • @Jake, glad you enjoyed the Yellowstone region archaeological information. I’m happy to exchange chase related ideas openly on this blog. I typically don’t email other searchers unless there’s a specific reason; and when I did try your email address wasn’t linked to your name here.

        • Yes Anna, the Yellowstone Region has a lot to offer.
          My contact email & jake.faulker email are linked.
          I understand if you want to just keep it on this playing field & search related only & feel the same way but you seem to have some knowledge about the area I did not want to discuss in the open.
          The folks me & my brother James spoke with do not want to be on the WWW & think it’s best to respect their wishes.
          Respect has to be honored & locked away from public view.
          I hope this is a benign question:
          Log flume & RR went thru this area?

  16. Okay guys. I have to call off my chase for mental health reasons. I am having nightmares about water. I’ve never had nightmares in my life. I’ll come back to this spot with a friend or two next time. Let this be a warning that there are dangers of a non physical nature as well.

    For the record the water itself is actually so far as I can tell safe. There is no conceivable way that anything larger than a minnow lives there, there is almost no current to speak of and a child would lead you right to the edge of it even if you were not looking for treasure. It explains so much about fenn and the chase in general that even if it is not the spot it has forever changed my criteria for future searches.

    So this is getting put on a back burner for now. I had a good time and this location will forever haunt me as the place I was too scared to become a legend.

    • It was reported by Newsweek that Forrest said it can be scorched by a forest fire. Seems doubtful that can be true in your scenario.

    • WOW Dys;

      What an interesting trip. Glad that you are back safely.. Sorry that the water is haunting you. The mind is a fragile thing at times. Glad that you have chosen to take care of yourself. As they say, “There is always next year.” As you said, take a couple of friends with you next trip. Let them deal with the water.

      Glad that you had a good time.

      Thanks for sharing. STAY SAFE


  17. Posted this over on WWWH thread but this one seems to get more action-

    This question is in ref to when Forrest said: “there are a lot of places WWWH and most of them are north of Santa Fe”

    Do you see this as a non-clue or something more?

    So does WWWH only happen in the Rockies? i.e. hot springs? The CD?

    Just looking for thoughts on this


    • Maybe he’s saying Santa Fe is the starting point. Its the only location we are given in the poem. wwwh is where you begin but you need to know where to start.

    • CY,

      Someone unfamiliar with your poem receives a message that says “meet me where warm waters halt, somewhere in the mountains north of Santa Fe”. Would they be able to work out where to go? If they can’t, would they need the whole poem, another stanza, or just a line or word to help them on their way? ~Phil Bayman 
      There are a few words in the poem that are not useful in finding the treasure Phil, but it is risky to discount any of them. You over simplify the clues. There are many places in the Rocky Mountains where warm waters halt, and nearly all of them are north of Santa Fe. Look at the big picture, there are no short cuts. f


      You asked; So does WWWH only happen in the Rockies? i.e. hot springs? The CD?

      I find it interesting that “Nearly” all of them are north of SF. So at least Some have to be below SF as well. Where do the RM’s end? The range doesn’t extent below SF… so does WWWH only happen in the Rockies? My answer has to be No.
      My question[s] are is wwwh a single spot or unique spot? or do we need to consider all of what WWWH may refer to?

      • Seeker,

        I think we need to consider WHAT it is referring to first. Then looking at the poem we can decipher WHERE that unique location is.

        What is the point of looking if we don’t know what we are even looking for.

        So what is south of Santa Fe as well?

      • I wonder if when he says to “look at the big picture”, it could be a reference to a picture in his book.

  18. It is my opinion that anywhere on the face of the earth where one body of water, be it creek, stream rill or river flows into a larger body of water, be it river lake or ocean – it “halts” at that juncture. To me, this is what I think Forrest is saying when he says to “Begin it where warm waters halt.”

    I know that others may disagree, but this is my opinion.

    Good luck to all searchers, and STAY SAFE.


    • Good morning JD, if you do not mind me asking. How long have you been on this *journey*?

      • I am a relative “newby” – December 23, 2015 I was introduced to the search.


        • Welcome to the hunt JD…..and no disrespect…..the first 6 months of this is intense and very stimulating and can lead a newcomer into some new ideas that other searchers may have not thought of.

          Now for me, I’ve been on this quest since 2012…..and trust me…..there is a lot of information that 6 months cannot encompass. Granted, one path has not yet been revealed…..but still…..even after the four years I’ve been trekking along, I sometimes find that I have not gained enough to confirm WWWH, although I think my WWWH is the spot…..I just don’t know….even after all this time.

          I can use it, and then seek from it, but in the end if the chest is not there, then I was wrong.

          Good luck!

          • As I have said before, I do NOT know that my solution is “THE” solution, because I do not (as yet) hold the chest. I have tried to be humble, at at the same time express enthusiasm for my solution.

            I KNOW that I am a “newby”, and I respect any and all input from people who have had more experience at this “game” than have I.

            These are some of the reasons that I try to end each post by wishing ALL searchers good luck in their search, and hope that they STAY SAFE.

            Thanks for your input.


          • I understand completely, I just didn’t want you to run in the obstacles that I did when I first started out…..it can be grueling to think you have something, but after arriving in the area….*sighs*….you realize that you won’t.


            Keep up with the posting, you have some good things to say sir!

            Good luck!

    • JD,

      That fine… but your limiting yourself to one use of the word halt. “whatIF” that is the wrong meaning/usage to what fenn intended?
      There are 166 words in the poem… If you let yourself get stuck on one meaning of one word, it can change to entire way of reading the poem… it seems to me you’re setting yourself up for failure. All I’m saying is, I like to have more options than just one.

      I know, the poem is straightforwards, and that seems to imply that every word need to be exact as we think it is… Should we be looking for what the intent of the Author of the poem meant… I mean, it is a poem after all.

      LOL… and I know others will disagree… But that is just my opinion as well.

  19. Seeker;

    How many definitions do you have for “”halt? Do you have a separate solve for each definition? If you can develop one good solve with only one definition why not stick with it.

    I know, how do I know it is a good solve? Well, I don’t, at least not as of today, since I do not hold the chest. I hope to change that on July 23rd.

    What good are multiple definitions, and multiple solves if none of them are “provable?

    I appreciate your willingness to “stir the pot”, but I am also disillusioned by your unwillingness to offer up any “Positive Solutions”. You offer up a lot of criticism, very little encouragement, and almost no alternatives to others ideas.

    These, are just my own opinions.


    • JD,

      I can say the same for, how do you find “the” wwh out of all those possible choices.

      Yes, I do work on each reading of the poem using different word[s] usage… Note; I’m not always saying definitions? A poem doesn’t need to be exact with the dictionary definition of words.

      What does “end” mean? How is it use to help us understand the poem? End could mean boundary or border and not just coming to or approaching an end. The same for drawing as to art or the act of pulling towards or drainage and other “usages”. Is “far only distance or can it be right side or even both?

      Like you. most see halt as stop, you may see warm as temperature, you conclude that warm waters stop or converge…and at that is the place “you” the searcher take in the canyon down.
      Seems simple enough… but was this poem meant to be simple?
      I think folks took the word straightforwards too literally in the hopes to make the poem simpler.

      I can read the same lines as: begin where liquid waters take it in the canyon down, with the word halt to mean a temporary change in direction. Not far, as in a short distance [ elevation], but too far to walk, because the poem may refer to the travel of the waters and not the searcher. Does this not seem straightforwards? Yet if we also use words meanings/usages… can warm indicate that you the searcher is warm as in close? and halt/stop indicates you the searcher to stop and take it in to refer to the line of sight or the view from that vantage point for a reason?

      In my thought process, my reading[s] of the poem gives me an avenue to explore different intents of interpretation of a ‘poem’.
      IMO your thoughts that halt can only mean one thing and one thing only, will send you over the ledge each and every time.
      Did all those who had the first two clues and went pass the other seven do exactly what you are? They kept going… My point is, if you limit what a poem offers the writer [ freedom of word choice and usages ] , you limit the interpretations as well. What does that do if you only think of a word to mean one thing and one thing only… What it does is… no matter how many times you read the poem, it is still the same. Only the names and places change. That doesn’t seem too precise to me.

      JD, you say your a newbie, but what I see is a smart man that is hoping that all this poem is, is about finding 9 clues. I think the poem needs to be understood, to understand, what fenn means by straightforward.

      We simply disagree on how we read the poem… That ok, you still have said things that makes me think… that is why I’m here. So thanks.

      • Thanks Seeker for your reply;

        You offered more insight and information in this one reply than I have heard from you in some time. I thank you very much for sharing your thoughts with me and other bloggers.

        When I state that where warm waters “Halt” means converge, I am saying that after considering multiple possible different interpretations for the meaning of “halt”, I have come to the conclusion that CONVERGE seems, to me (at this point in time) to be the most appropriate interpretation. ..and the one that I personally feel most closely fits what I feel Forrest meant when he used the word “halt”. I did not just jump on one definition, and now refuse to consider others.

        I have followed this same process throughout the poem. I have examined each and every word for usual, unusual, archaic, obscure and little-known definitions and origins of words. Like you, I concur that “END” can mean boundary, and not just terminus.

        One must be analytical and imaginative when reading the poem. One must understand not only the contents of the poem, but the architecture upon which the poem is constructed.

        Are their hidden layers or levels to the poem? I am not sure. I know that using only one level, I was able to develop a solve (solution) that was straight-forward, that almost fell into place, step-by-step. One that required no codes or cyphers.

        Is it the correct solution? Only time will tell…and I hope that the day of reconing is July 23rd.

        Again, thanks for sharing your reply. It offered more help and insight than many of your previous postings.

        Good luck in your search, and STAY SAFE


      • @Seeker – good points on intepretations. For example, I don’t see the word “halt” as stopping or pausing or ending or even as significant with a definition. I actually see it as part of a homophone, and in my view the reason for the word choice “halt”, e.g. “haute”.

        • @Seeker – Here’s a curious quote you might like from Fenn back in 2013 that also allows me to force-fit my solution. It’s curious because Fenn has f*-tons of things to pull from and post, so I do tend to scour (and process every which way) his selections.


          There is a guy on Dal’s blog that says he is going to Terre Haute, IN to look for the treasure because it’s 300 miles west of Toledo and because he thinks you like b-ball and Larry Bird.

          That’s true so what’s the problem? ff”

          • I experienced Terre Haute 1966 – 1972. Revisited once, in 1990. Pretty darn sure FF wouldn’t choose it as a place for his bones or the TC to rest for eternity, given he’s got NM, YNP and everything the Rockies have to offer in between to choose from.

            Terre Haute is mos def a “force-fit”, although, it does mean “high land/ground”. If you really want to stretch it out, there are a lot of very interesting Plains Indian land forms/relics/etc. to explore. If anyone can develop a way to tie that into a particular solve, go git ’em.

            Just my humble opinion and 2 cents worth.

          • @melanie – apologies for writing as though everyone knows my theory. I believe Terre Haute is involved only as Fenn’s hint to 300 miles west of Toledo. Lots of discussion here about this 300 miles hint not being a hint.

            The word “haute” in my proposal is related to where I believe is the 2nd clue, Ramona Falls. I get there by piecing together words in the first stanza, e.g. So Cheyenne Canon, Seven Falls. Then my 2nd clue is WWWH, Ramona Falls. I propose this is derived from Fenn’s pirate mentions and allusions, William Kidd, La Buse (by way of the Black-Crested Buzzard-Eagle post found at https://dalneitzel.com/2014/12/22/buzzard/ ) and Madagascar, a famous pirate location for Kidd and La Buse. On Madagascar is a location called Ranomafana, Haute Matsiatra. Ranomafana is Malagasy for “warm waters” and there is a hot spring there. By using Ranomafana and Haute, I can put together a very reasonable WWWH homophone for Ramona Falls and halt.

            I also find it amusing that Fenn posted the word “Haute” in one of his communications, and so I view this as him further hinting (in my opinion, by pointing out that Mark figured out why but not fully) as to why he flippantly said more than 300 miles west of Toledo in the first place.

          • Hello, EC. I’ve been following your expeditions for a while now. I must admit, I’m in awe of your imagination and knowledge of etymology. And, as we all know, Imagination is better than knowlege. But honestly, sometimes, I have a hard time tracking your “if then, so therefore, ergo..” logic (my aging feeble brain, I guess). And so it is with the connection you cite between Ranomafana and Haute. Haute is simply a French adjective. It could apply to any number of places and things anywhere – or even people. Its significance is lost on me, but all good luck to you if you find that nugget useful. Let us know how it figures into your solve – only if you’d like, of course. Enjoy your chase!

        • EC,
          I see the answer to the e-mail very simple… It’s true I like B-ball and larry bird.

          Here’s another e-mail;
          I have figured out there is no treasure.  This is a medical study being done by Dr. Fenn concerning the use of riddles to help delay the effects of Alzheimers Disease.
          We are the case study to prove his theory that by doing riddles helps your ability to keep your mind healthy.  This will soon be published in the PubMeds that are available to all doctors.  The population at large will only get a brief overview of the complete study, which will more then likely not help much.
          Looking forward to receiving your memoir, researching has been a lot of fun for my son and me.  He is very excited about our trip.  Which I think will be in June for 2 weeks.
          I am concerned about one thing about the quest, should I carry a firearm (as laws permit)?  Its more to do with safety with wildlife there, then protecting from other people.  But I guess that wouldn’t be a bad idea either.
          Hope all is well
          I hid the treasure chest at the first onset of dementia. I knew I had a disease so I made myself a note that revealed the exact location because I wanted later on to give some additional clues. Now I don’t remember where I put the note. Maybe if I search my fishing box I can find what it is that I was looking for. But why would I want to fish in this weather? I’ll go ask my wife Phyllis where my tool kit is.”

          Months after this e-mail folks were still talking about fenn’s dementia [ he seems fine to me ] and this is where the IOU in the chest and safety deposit box theories started. I think this comment from fenn explains it well… especially the first part I placed in brackets

          [[“Occasionally I forward parts of emails to Dal for use in his blog to
          add human interest for others who are in the search, but I never would if
          it made a difference or in any way might point someone toward or away from
          the treasure. Dal is also a searcher. I am determined to stay aloof of
          providing any additional clues that are useful. Everyone has the same
          information to work with.]]
          Some few have stopped within several hundred feet
          of the correct location, and then passed it by. I said in my book that
          the solution will be difficult but not impossible. If it was easy anyone
          could do it. Whoever finds the treasure will mostly earn it with
          their imagination. I have done only a few things in my life that were truly
          planned. Hiding the treasure chest is one of them. And at the end, the one
          who finds the gold will not feel lucky, but instead, will ask himself,
          ”what took me so long?”

          • Hello Seeker. I’m wondering if there’s a little hint about “Phyllis.” I was doing some research this morning and I came across an area that made me think a little bit. While searching, I found a painting by Phyllis Chase. In her painting, there’s an area that made me pause to think. I’m curious to think what you and others think:


            The painting is heading towards the bottom.

            Connection or just coincidental?

    • JD,
      Directed at Seeker you said: ” I am also disillusioned by your unwillingness to offer up any “Positive Solutions”. You offer up a lot of criticism, very little encouragement, and almost no alternatives to others ideas.”

      I find this hysterical.

      Seeker is pretty much the guru of “alternatives”. I don’t always agree with his thoughts but he offers a lot to think about if you just listen. His criticism is about as gentle as it gets and mostly offered up to help people really think about the silly things they just said. When you’ve been in this for 4 years and listened to all the mis-quotes and random paraphrases that get thrown out here it’s pretty refreshing to have someone like Seeker around to correct what was really said.

      Positive Solutions? Do you really expect the old hands to tell you exactly where they think the chest is? Maybe you should check out the archives and read about the extremely detailed solution that Seeker laid out for everyone.

      Encouragement? “This ain’t no girl scout camp” where everybody wins a prize for participating. You can cheer-lead others if you want but does that really help them? Most would benefit from some constructive criticism but unfortunately many egos are too fragile to listen. Let’s face it…..some solves are just flat wrong. Is it in a tree in West Yellowstone picnic area -no, is it hidden in an amusement park – no, is it at the bottom of a moving body of water that floods ever spring – no.

      One thing you’ll find out is no one ever wants to believe their solution could be wrong, and no one ever believes that the other guys solution might be right. That’s treasure hunting 101.

      Oh yeah- IMO.

      • We all do perceive the world through our own biases and experiences don’t we?

        Thanks for your input.


        • This may sound crazy but how about cows as the reference to heavy loads?
          So , after you reached the end of ” no paddle up your creek” you reach the cows grazing. Which would tie into no human trail, but a cow trail. F has said that ” until you have loved a cow, part of your soul remains undiscovered.” He also slept under a tree with cows grazing all around. F said ,”It was a threshold moment in my life, but I didn’t know it at the time.” COWS.
          Does anyone have an opinion about Cows being the heavy loads? IMO of course.

          • Good thinking, eaglesbound. Think you are on to something. Cows definitely leave heavy load behind in their path in my experience.

          • I’m going to add it to my list, being that this is the first time I’ve heard this meaning.

            Nice eaglesabound…..keep ’em coming.

            I’m adding it to the list, because when I was out searching last year, in the place my team was at, were herds of cows, just walking and grazing along…..a bear would have a field day.

            This also makes me think something about the region I was in. If there were cows along some trail….then more than likely, there are no bears in this region, thus making it a fairly safe search area.
            – That came and gone when I found a patch of bear hair stuck on a branch…..*smiles*…..and I began packing my bear spray!


          • Thanks zosorocks1,
            Cows create paths, like deer. They take the same path back and forth between water and food. Just a thought.
            Not a human trail, but an animal trail.

          • Ahh, but could Fenn count on cows being around to serve as a clue in 1000 years, or even 100?

          • Cows have been around for over 10000 years. If the government doesn’t confiscate the land , they will probably be around for a long long time.

  20. IMO, I’m always amazed how so many have searched for the TC and came up empty but still feel they know the nine clues…I can see from searchers comments that they r closing in on the TC..I still have my designated area and all nine clues are aligned..I just need to get BOTG to confirm my location..of course my area involves a river, meadow, and wooden area..where grizzlys roam…my brother was there last Septmber not looking for the TC but hobby and kept looking over his shoulder for a grizzley..when I get BOTG I will beable to determine if FF could hide the TC there..yes IMO the TC is near water but in the woods…FF could lie there in peace with the beautiful surroundings and flowing water

  21. Just thinking outside the box today on “there’ll be no paddle up your creek”….

    Here is a random thought.

    We know that a “creek” could be an old dry creek, another reference to a river, or a literal creek.

    But what do we know of “there’ll be no paddle”?…..hmmmm….
    – am I walking alongside the “creek”/river?

    – am I wading in the “creek”/river because no boat will be used?

    – is the “paddle” a reference to the beaver’s tail?
    + indicating that the creek has beaver dams situated upon it.
    + FF has referenced beavers in various forms

    – is “paddle” a reference to “paddling” (verb) – making a movement with your hands?
    + as with sifting through shallow water for something?
    + dictionary.com definition is:


    verb (used without object), paddled, paddling.
    to move the feet or hands playfully in shallow water; dabble.
    to toy with the fingers.
    to toddle.

    If “there’ll be no paddle up your creek” does it reflect a literal meaning of an upward battle with a flowing creek or river?

    Many possibilities…..but only one will fit. What are your thoughts?

    • You have a lot of good ideas Zep. Here’s one back:

      Paddle: (Civil Engineering) the sliding panel in a lock or sluicegate that regulates the level or flow of water

      • LOL – you caught my Jimmy page attachment…..good for you!

        As for:
        “Paddle: (Civil Engineering) the sliding panel in a lock or sluicegate that regulates the level or flow of water”
        – I guess we can say….

        “there’ll be no >>lock or sluicegate<< up your creek."

        Hmmm….that could rule out many creeks and rivers……do you know of any creeks and/or rivers that would have this "paddle" installed?

        Good thinking!

        • Actually, there might be a lock or sluicegate, but its paddle will be missing…

          If I found such a thing, I would have to keep it a secret, of course. But I would be excited and start looking ahead for the next clue…

          At least with this definition of paddle, it provides something on the ground to seek.

    • A couple other thoughts on “No paddle up your creek”… may be a reference to paddlefish being extinct in that tributary. Or meaning pass by Y confluence at Ore Creek.

      “Yore” may be an old time creek Forrest knew as a boy but is now dry, diverted for irrigation, or fenced off as private property.

  22. It could mean so many things couldn’t it?

    In my solve, I am heading upstream at the edge of a stream. I have seen videos of kayaks being paddled up this same stream for some distance. One mile above where the kayaks are launched, the stream narrows and elevation increased drastically in a very short distance. From this point, there can be “No paddles up this stream” (sic)… The only thing upstream from this point is “Heavy loads, and water high.” (sic)

    It fits my solve, but other definitions may fit others solves.

    Good luck to all – STAY SAFE


  23. Everything I write is IMO.

    I live near the foothills of the Colorado Rockies and just wanted to let searchers know the spring runoff is turning creeks into roiling waters that can be dangerous. There is still snow at some higher elevations. Even we that live a mile high can get a little short-winded at 10,000 feet depending on the incline of our hikes.

    So please take care, bring plenty of water and sunscreen. Give yourself time to adjust . Listen to your body because it will tell you if you’re pushing too hard.

    That being said, I hope to meet some of you about 200′ off some trail. I’ll be the one with the walking stick.

  24. has anyone considered why Mr.Fenn said its below 10,200 feet? imo there is a definite reason for this. also when he says ‘map’ what sort of ‘map’ is he referring to? i.m.h.o. looking inside the box might be better than outside the box.

    • I’m not sure what Forrest had in mind with not over 10,200 feet elevation. However, the two most logical reasons I can offer are:

      1. A mountain in close proximity is 10,200 ft elev.

      2. A Dangerous medical condition “hypoxia” can occur beginning at 10,200 ft (a pilot and hiker would know that). I think Forrest really cares about searchers being as safe as “humanly responsible.”

    • Ok 10,200 feet…………………………

      Here is my opinion on what it means – and it’s a big one.

      You will find 10,200 listed directly above the treasure on a map.

      Yes, that was one of my dancing around the room moments.

      IMO only

    • I like the idea of it having gold, but as for it being the resting place for the chest?….it is below 5000 ft.

      Sorry…..good luck with the gold panning though!!


  25. 300 yards?? Help Seeker, Do you have knowledge of when Forrest said this. I must have missed it.
    It must in the pond. “Your effort will be worth the cold “. Hurry before Tail end Charlie digs it up. 🙂

    • If your talking about “Mike’s” post… it seems that has been ousted… so that should answer your question. Whoever that was, didn’t read about the 8.25 miles north of SF, or about the 500′ and 200′ comments, or the… oh heck, the guy didn’t know nothing about anything. Except he knew where the chest is… lol.

      • I know …it just like disappeared into thin air. 🙁
        Just when I wanted to have some fun with it. Oh well. 🙂

  26. SL – you most likely already know that McElwain Creek and Fenn Mt are also in the area. However, i don’t find references in the poem or books to the Helmville Ovando areas. I’ve driven through there dozens of times…mostly cattle ranches and wheat country under 5000 ft.
    Closest ttotc refs would be Lincoln (5’s); logging, Lewis & Clark route; Redford’s River Runs through it in Blackfoot River country.
    If researching McElwain property in Mt, there is one in Deerlodge and several near Columbia falls in the flathead valley. I ran Fenn, Simpson, McElwain, every nic name, friends names, business name, book ref, poem words, pun I could think of thru cadastral searches in every county of Montana, with varied spellings. If on private property, it is beyond creatively well concealed.

    • Welcome back Jake. Sorry you are empty handed, but bet that your heart is full of great memories, and your mind full of new thoughts.

      If you care to share, I asm sure that I am not the only one who would like to hear more about your experiences.

      Again, welcome back.


      • Thanks JD,
        Better to be back safe & not have the treasure than not to come back at all.
        I ran into the same situation as you & others.
        The creek was too high to forge.
        I know I said I was going to quit after this trip but not being able to reach our destination has got me going back.
        The window of opportunity is tight.

        • I will let you know how the water level is after the 23rd of July. It may give you a better idea of when to go.


          • Just food for thought, but I was curious about the number of coins placed in the chest (265) and it could be a date … (September 22) but just a theory but the “window”” just reminded me of it.

  27. Forrest’s new Weekly post is up.

    Here it is:

    Dear Forrest,

    You have said in the cold months to wait for the snow to melt and the mud to dry. Considering much of the Rockies are subject to random and frequent bouts of precipitation, when is the mud ever dry? ~Thanks, I’m Inohury

    Ha, elementary question my dear Inohury.

    A friend’s six year-old daughter told me that mud can never dry because if it did it wouldn’t be mud anymore.

    Please don’t ask me to argue the point. f

    – – – When is a hidden treasure no longer hidden?


    Good luck to all searchers, and STAY SAFE


    • The questioner = Inohury.

      Is that “I no hurry” or “IN nO hurry”

      It MAY be a real person, but the name to me offers interesting possibilities.

      Is Forrest telling someone to not be in a hurry? Is he saying to a searcher, take your time, I am in no hurry.

      All very interesting.

      Good Luck with this one searchers – STAY SAFE.


      • it’s “in no hurry”, at the end of the question he signs off with “I’m Inohury” Honestly, it’s my opinion that I believe it’s all him and he’s staged an anagram with the sentence

        “Ha, elementary question my dear Inohury.”

        My reasons are:

        When anagramming, most programs that rearrange a sentence use words like “Ha!” or “Hmm” to fill up the letters.
        Also The title of the Featured Question MUD, which is from the Anagrammed classic statement, “My name is MUD” which really means “DUM”. I think the title was the warning of an anagram.

        And lastly the statement, ” me that mud can never dry because if it did it wouldn’t be mud anymore.” I think this yet another hint that if you (change) it, it wouldn’t be mud anymore.

        I’m working on the line now, but sure could use Muset’s help with it. he’s good at that sort of thing.

        • Iron Will;

          You say, ” I think this yet another hint that if you (change) it, it wouldn’t be mud anymore.”

          “If you change the poem, it won’t be the poem anymore” (sic)…or at least, it will not have the intended meaning.

          Just a thought.

          Good Luck to all and STAY SAFE


      • C’mom guys there are huge clues here… Mud is meant as a persons name, for disrespect… The doctor who cared for JW booth after shooting Lincoln, is where the saying came from… Lincoln was are 16th president, and if you take every 16th syllable you… wait is it every 16th word? maybe its every 16th letter… anyways… ITS a Code, right?

        JD, I don’t think, and I’ll add, I never will think… that fenn is sending a message to any one individual. There may be a message here and it might be for all to consider… It’s all elementary!

        I even had one searcher claim this is fenn leveling the playing field to say the chest was discovered but not retrieved… I no longer chat with this searcher, for my own personal reasons… I may not be the brightest of searchers involved, yet I find it hilarious that if we can’t understand something another is trying to imply, we go so far right wing to think there must be something major going on behind the scenes. Fenn is sending someone a message or fenn is telling someone something or Fenn is telling A searcher….

        The one consistent message I see from the last few Q&A’s, weekly words etc… We’all be needin to smartin up a bit…. Listen to the little girl, she has common sense.


        • Seeker;

          I agree that Forrest is probably NOT directing his posts to a particular searcher, but what if he is? Forrest has said something to the effect that he would not answer any emails that would help a specific person. By putting something out there for general consumption – to be read by all searchers, is he violating his pledge? I think not. If the intended recipient has to solve yet another riddle, what is the harm?

          It is as possible as not that the intended recipient will NOT be able to solve this new riddle…IF in fact this is what Forrest did.

          I am sure that Forrest is ready for this chase to end. It is HIS poem. It is HIS chase. If he chooses to possibly assist someone who he feels is getting fairly close, more power to him.

          This of course is just MY opinion, and I could very well be wrong on this one.

          I am sure I will get a lot of flack on this one, but so be it!


          • I think that is more than just semantics and more toward wishful thinking, to say the difference to an e-mail to a comment on an open blog, to not be one in the same when the subject is the chase…

            “Occasionally I forward parts of emails to Dal for use in his blog to
            add human interest for others who are in the search, but I never would if
            it made a difference or in any way might point someone toward or away from
            the treasure. Dal is also a searcher. I am determined to stay aloof of
            providing any additional clues that are useful. Everyone has the same
            information to work with…”

            If fenn actually was implying a message to an individual through this Q&A or another method… that does imply direct help to that individual… it doesn’t matter if he took out an ad in the New York Times. It still implies helping that person.

            I don’t see it… not one bit… and honestly for those who truly believe fenn is directing this or anything else to them and using the public arena to level the playing field… imo… just jumped off lovers leap.

          • @Seeker – while someone is jumping over lover’s leap…

            Spanish for “dirt” is “suciedad”, if you know what I mean.

          • Jake and Seeker, you make my arguement for me. Jake you said, ““Fifth, I have never consciously misled any searcher or privately given a hint or clue I thought would help someone find the treasure.”

            The keyword is “privately” – a MW post is not private –

            Seeker you say, “Everyone has the same information to work with…”

            Again EVERYONE has access to MW posts.

            Thanks to both of you for making my argument for me.

            Just my opinion.


          • JD,
            You can pick out whatever words help you… but your dismissing the overall intention that Fenn has repeated he will not give aid to a searcher.
            I could bombard the blog with hundreds of comment fenn has state on this subject… but Goofy would nuke me for using too much server space.

            If you want to fall in line with others who think fenn is sending out secret messages, by all means believe what ya want. That list seems to be growing exponentially faster than fenn’s comment to the opposite.

            That’s right I said it… I can use words that have 5 syllables in them… I just try now to use them because health issues. Now please excuse me while I go to the ER and have myself checked for a double hernia.

          • Hey JD
            I am confused? This sounds like you are saying that Forrest has a special person that he is leading through blog to indulgence. I didn’t think you would be that type of a person. I hope I’m wrong. As for the other statement saying that Forrest is ready for this chase to end. You are way out there on that statement. Forrest had said from the start that it didn’t matter to him if it was found this weekend or 1,000 to 10,000 years from now. If he’s tired of it, he can just turn off his computer and go watch tv. it will be the end if he (Forrest) never goes on a blog again . I usally agree with most everything you say but this is the 1st time that I have to disagree. Sorry
            Timothy A.

        • Thanks Seeker,
          I just finished eating my humble pie sprinkled with crow.
          The man is not sending any personalized messages to anyone in particular -period-
          However, I think he’s telling all of us that a 6 year old is smarter than some adults when it comes to basic common knowledge.
          We tend to overthink his comments way too much.
          It’s just dry dirt when it’s not mud.

          Pssst JD,
          He’s not whispering to you.

          • LOL… literally almost fell out of the chair.

            “However, I think he’s telling all of us that a 6 year old is smarter than some adults when it comes to basic common knowledge.”

            But I’m all ready I’m smarter than some adults… because I know a 6 year old is smarter then me.

          • I’m in the “he’s not helping any specific searcher” boat. So, I guess I agree with……..Jake? Ha, next you’ll tell me he’s searching in Montana….

          • LOL charlie,
            This isn’t about taking sides here.
            I believe this site was designed to share information about TTOTC.
            Sometimes we get sidetracked from the main objective including myself.
            Our POV’s are just that & may be taken as is, there are no lemon laws here but the information is free, so the only liability is on you the reader in what you think you read into.

            I think I may have to write the director Washington DC Seeker to get any info about the marker.
            I do appreciate your help & yes you are still doing our homework for us with only a few laughs in return.

            Hope you get out of the ER soon.

    • I read this as “water never halts because if it did it wouldn’t be water anymore”. So maybe a temp change is a correct halt.

      • Yes UA,
        Water never halts, even in a vacuum in space it does not.
        When frozen the molecules slow down but still vibrate if you will.
        Whats Kelvin? -273? Maybe it halts here but there are no temps here on earth even close.
        So I believe in the qualifier “warm”.

        • Jake – Don’t mean to jump into the middle of your conversation here. ………but I know quite a bit about freezing………….

          There is no such thing as -273 Kelvin. I believe you mean -273.15 degrees Celsius, which is equal to 0 degrees Kelvin, or absolute zero. In Fahrenheit, that is −459.67 degrees. This is the point where, if matter slows down any more, it will completely stop moving and thus cease to exist. It is only a theoretical temperature and, in reality, is impossible to reach. There is nothing in particular that freezes at this temperature, but everything stops moving entirely.

          Yes, i believe you are right , one must use the qualifier of warm.

          • Thank you inthe….
            My memory is fading & I believe you are correct.
            I see you do get the point & water is high everywhere & low as well.

          • Sorry,
            Forget to say IMO & the qualifier does have a meaning if warm means temperature, waters mean H2o, halt means stop.
            I vaguely remember Kelvin is somewhere deep in space in theory & we are probably wrong until we go there & find it.

          • …and where do you find WWWH in the Rockies, 8.25 miles north of SF ‘borders’?

            Not in a hot spring.

            Not at a dam. – FF

            ….ask a kid….

            We are running out of answers except the most vague one….the the 32nd I’ve gone with since the beginning of all this…..the edge of civilination is where warm waters halt….and a kid knows this.


            Now where is that “edge”?

            How specific is t?

            His brother’s motel in WYP?
            Hebden Lake?
            Ennis, MT?
            Any one of the multitudes of national park rest rooms?
            Old Faithful?
            Cody, MT?
            First rest stop more than 8.25 miles north of SF?
            A motel, hotel, lodge, campsite with showers, etc.?

            I believe FF is correct in that some seekers did figure out the first clue, but just didn’t realize it.

            Good luck to all, hope this adds a depth to the poem that you thought you may never have to come to and cross..*winks*…it is difficult…NOT impossible….you are smart….you CAN DO THIIIIIS!!!

            Cheers and happy hunting?!!

  28. Just a REMINDER:
    This is the last weekend for entries to the Essence of Fennboree Photo Contest. The contest closes on Sunday at midnight and the judging begins. Those maps are worth a hundred bucks apiece and as far as I know there won’t be any more sold since Sacha is nearly, if not completely sold out. Plus these have value added. They are truly “unique” since Forrest made original doodles on each one.
    You can find links to all the entries here:

      • Sorry Jake, read that wrong… you asked about fenn’s possible employment… I’ll answer that, I don’t know.

        • Thanks Seeker,
          I’m poking around the site now & pretty interesting on how many markers there are in the US.
          As far as Forrest working for the Forest Service, I have this only:
          The Searchers-New Mexico True Stories
          Feb 2015:
          “In my younger years I was always out in the woods someplace, in fact cleared trails for the Forest Service, I was a professional fishing guide at age 13”
          Thanks, Hear me all.
          Him & Donnie went into the Gallatin in 1946 I believe & the marker is 2 years older.
          May not mean anything but found it interesting.

          A lot of the markers were place by different organizations not by the ones marked upon it.

          So your telling us you moved up on the list where Dal is in the high teens?
          Was it 17?
          This is just from memory, so don’t nuke me Goofy.

          Seeker, hope you have a speedy recovery.

          • My comment related to the # of people searching in the various states. Has NOTHING to do with any kind of ranking if that is what you are implying.


          • Jake;

            If you check the latest numbers:

            NM is #1 – 19.2 people – 36%
            MT (you and Dal – 14.3 ppl = 27%
            Col #3 – 11.5 people = 22%
            and WY – 8 people = 15%

            Has NOTHING to do with ranking, and as far as percentages per state, I (in Wyoming) am at the bottom. Am sure this pleases you


          • JD,
            So, I take it you didn’t look at scrapbook 78.

            Seventh, there has been talk about some searchers receiving under-the-table clues that will help them find the treasure. Those accusations are false. I have, A wife, two daughters, two sons-in-laws, seven grandkids, one great grandkid, a cousin, a nephew and his wife. I like all of them better than I like Dal so that makes him 17th on the list to get clues from me. The fact that none of them have found the treasure should speak for itself.

            Well, evidently you come before family JD.
            I stick to what I said, he does not play favorites -period-

            Don’t be so vain!!!!

          • @Jake – I’m going to side with JD and a couple of others here on this argument. Though I don’t believe he’s giving hints to helping specifically one of us, I do believe he’s human, entertaining himself with us trying to solve his puzzle, and I believe more apt to post something relevant to someone who may be close and needing a nudge specifically at the time he’s posting it. I understand he gets a lot of emails. If I were in his yucky house shoes, I might be influenced by a theme from a correspondent, and I might use that theme to sprinkle another hint into a post.

            I believe this is all JD is saying, and completely without vanity.

          • Oh my,
            Say for instance you sent him an email about your solve.
            He does not reply but the next WW’s or statements come out & you think he is tailoring it just for you.
            You guys can think whatever you want, but the bottom line is that I think you guys are reading way too much into the statements, WW’s etc…
            Why can’t a statement from Forrest just be what it is?
            Does everything he says have to be a hint or clue?

            I see faces in the rock formations & clouds all the time but you need to get realistic.

            Anyway, we can’t prove favoritism at this time so let’s go on with the debate without proof.


          • @Jake – further, this might include extra stuff like:

            ”I was very careful not to say I needed to be correct only 85% of the time. Read it again, middle of page 14. It doesn’t help to stretch a tangent. ff”

            Seems like this came out of nowhere and was directed specifically at someone, but published to the blogosphere for all to know… although he has used the word “tangent” in a previous MW post.

          • @Jake – I don’t think anyone here is saying Fenn is helping them specifically, nor reading something into everything he says. But some things he says, yeah. And not reading everything for that kind of analysis is… well… under-informed. Maybe he was hoping someone would say that about that. I really don’t know. Much of the fun of looking forward to his posts is to see if anything is relatable to how I am thinking of solutions.

            Sometimes faces in rocks are actually named by other people, like George Washington’s profile, and relatable to TTOTC words, like George Washington facing left. That’s pretty realistic.

          • Jake, I am beginning to take issue with your attitude on this topic. JD has done nothing but say there is a possibility that Forrest could be hinting privately to someone in the Chase. He did not claim it was him. Yet you chide him with belittling comments like ” Well, evidently you come before family JD” or… “Dont be so vain”, or ” Psst JD, he’s not whispering to you”.

            I commend JD for his manners given your insults, and he rightly deserves an open apology from you.

            Oh, and since you are being so direct on Forrest quotes to try and point that there is nothing there, let me shower you with some wisdom…


            —-2Q) You have written quite a few books on varying subjects; and if you consider and combine the numerous ‘Scrapbooks, Vignettes, Speed Bumps’, etc on Dal’s site, and the stories/answers to questions here on Mysterious Writings—-

            ——–3QYou have said you hadn’t deliberately placed these subtle hints in your book; but have you done so in any of your other writings mentioned in Question two?———

            3A ” I don’t want to broaden the clues and hints I’ve written about by pointing them out. ”

            Just so you know, this is a direct FACT that there are more hints and clues in his other mediums, in his testimony that he does not want to expand on the clues we “know” by showing them to us. Which means they are subtly placed hints and clues… Just like the kind JD was calmly and politely alluding to. Unfortunately, I’m not as nice as he is… so I chose to put you in your place.

          • @Iron Will – great Fenn quote and in context. Thank you for pulling that out of the weeds. Hopefully this clears up the reasoning for the wonder for those of us in the “non-poem hints” crowd.

          • You, Iron Will, will never put me in my place.
            I will leave that to nature.
            With all due respect, you do not know the whole dialogue, that is between us.
            If you take a look up where I started this thread, you will see that was not the intent.
            I respect everyone’s POV here.

            So Will,
            Do you have anything to add besides taking sides?
            Start at the top & work your way down & maybe you Will chill.

          • Thanks E.C. , that’s just how I am. When you believe in something… you can’t sit by and watch attempts to destroy it. You have to fight to defend it.

            Words of an old soldier I guess 😛

          • Ive said all you needed to hear. The rest is your mindless banter at trying to “get even”.

          • After careful consideration, deep thought & research, I have decided that the possibility of Forrest wanting the treasure to be found soon is good.

            If he’s nudging searchers publicly within his words, he has every right to do so considering the disappearance of Randy, people being rescued & this latest nut case stalking his daughter & let’s not forget others that have gone to his home & also wants the bracelet back.

            The evidence is mounting.

            I am not sure if I would still be on this blog if it were not for him. Thank you Forrest.
            That being said it doesn’t mean I am here because he is nudging me & likes my solve but likes to protect freedom of speech even for a stubborn, arrogant dude as myself.
            Just remember though we will still have our differences and debates & that’s what makes us different. I would not like a world where everyone agrees with each other.

            JD, I apologize for attacking you but not for the way I am.
            Did I just say that?

          • Did Y’all hear that Netscape is buying Yahoo?

            They are going to call it “Netanyahu”

            It’s an old one but a good one…

          • @Spallies — A few more suitable for kids and grumps…

            – Q: What did the 0 say to the 8?
            – A: Nice belt!

            – Q: Why can’t you hear a pterodactyl using the bathroom?
            – A: The p is silent.

            And finally, hear me all and listen good in the style I believe is the Fenn puzzle… Read this out loud to someone and keep repeating it until you’re ready to give the answer.
            – Q: Thirty cows, twenty eight chickens. How many didn’t?

            Usually you get “didn’t what?” to which you just repeat it.

            – A: Ten… Thirty cows, twenty ate chickens.

    • Jake, In the video that New Mexico tourism department did last year, Forrest states that he cleared trails for the Forest Service. He said that right before he said he was a professional fishing guide at age 13. I actually found a Forest Service pin very near what I consider to be the blaze.

      • Hear me all,
        Do you mind sharing a pic of the pin?
        Where did you find it?
        General location of course & please don’t say the Rockies.

        • Jake, I did not take a picture of the pin. A wood stake marked the spot where the pin was. It was within about 30′ of the blaze in my solve but that is not where the chest sits. General location would be Gallatin National Forest.

      • IMHO, I’m guessing he helped clear the boundary line between YSNP and West yellowstone thAt ran right past their one room CAbin. You can see it on GE.
        That might be where th….. naw.

  29. First I’ll state that I think the chest is real, and is hidden in the Rockies. But lately I have been mulling over the fact that maybe Mr Fenn never wants this thing to be found. Let me explain:

    Do I think the chest is real —— Yes

    Do I think its truly in the Rockies —– Yes

    Do I think that he wanted to get people into the wilderness —– Yes

    Do I think what he is doing is great for kids —— Absolutely

    Do I think he hid his treasure and created a vague poem so he wouldn’t end up just another asterisk in a book that was never written ——- Possibly

    There are just as many hints that point to this as hints that point to the winning solve. Im sure that many of you have crossed them while reading TOTC and reading the SB’s, yet turn your cheek to them because they are non-conducive to your solves. Think about how you would leave your mark on this world even though you have passed on? Maybe thats why he is “Inohury” for someone to find it. You find it, how does his legacy live on past the 6 months of TV interviews , books, Discovery specials?

    Now dont flame me because just like you I believe Forrest is a great person that has a good heart and a positive motive behind this whole thing. Get people outside and make a mark on people lives. So if someone finds his chest, how is he supposed to do that to future generations? 100 or a 1000 years……does it matter?

    • I think there’s a lot of evidence to support the idea that he is enjoying watching people look for it, is personally entertained by some of the more amusing attempts, truly disheartened by failed or (at worst) tragic attempts, and probably does want to see someone succeed eventually, although, clearly, he recognizes that may not happen anytime soon. He may be ambivalent about when it’s solved, but I can’t imagine a scenario where someone would create an elaborate puzzle and not actually care if people engage with it in the present.

    • Thanks Dal, very nice.
      “People come for the history more than the for thrill of it”
      I would go for all the right reasons.
      Cumbres Pass, 10,022′.
      Where getting close to 10,200′.

    • Dal,
      That is a wonderful place to visit and search. I spent many cold weeks there and the poem fits really nice. I am probably heading back there this fall to search. It is beautiful. That train when it heads up Windy Pass is magnificent. Every stop along the way relates, many old wagon trails with one that has a buried something in the middle. I need to go back there. They filmed a movie in the eighties off to the east called “Where’s the Gold” I haven’t seen the movie but tell me that doesn’t sound inviting. Lots and lots of connections along there. Hmmm, maybe I’ll go before fall, if anybody is going to be in the area hit me up and I’ll head down.

      • You are right inthechaseto, the Chama N.M. to Antonito Co. is a fabulous scenic and historic ride. I also enjoy the Galloping Goose as well. It can be strange where one might be spotted.

  30. K. I’m chiming in.
    In my opinion, if we do not examine every piece of evidence as if it were a clue/hint, we are only failing ourselves.
    I see everything as a plus, until I prove it is not.
    Forrest had said (paraphrased), he would not tell anyone privately. So then it’s public for all to see.
    He said (paraphrased) the person we deserves the treasure is the one who solves the clues. It’s all there, for us all to see. It’s a) in how we use it. IMO. 🙂

    • well said Jamie! Tell !@)$!@$!@$ I forgot his name again! OH! BILL! Tell Bill sorry about butchering the name memory 🙂

    • Makes me wonder- IF a whisper really does breathe just barely over the edge of silence….what source of weighted words would bring what flows also quietly underneath?

      Very inspiring J.

    • Above comment is still me…trying to.figure out.how to.switch to WordPress for easier sign in. So I’ll be Jonsey1 from now on. Fyi.

  31. There’s an article in the Santa Fe New Mexican talking about a creepy guy stalking Fenn’s family.

    I’d like to take this moment for a public service exercise. Please, everyone, put down your electronic devices, take a moment, go outside, and have a think.

    Statistically speaking, you most likely have no idea where the treasure is, none at all, and you’re probably never going to find it. At some level, you know that. You’re probably not bat !@#$ crazy like this guy, but you are probably a little obsessed yourself.

    There is a line. You’re a decent person and you know where that line is. You don’t cross it, not because someone tells you not to, but because you actually want to be a decent person. You know there is absolutely no reason you should feel the need to contact anyone in Mr. Fenn’s family, and you know there is no reason you need to go to anyone’s house. Forrest Fenn never asked you to, doesn’t want you to, and you know that. I don’t have to tell you what you already know. I’m just reminding you.

    Don’t be this scary creep. Go be a decent person. Go look for a real treasure, in the woods far away from people’s houses, be safe about it, and don’t bother people. Have fun, obsess in non creepy ways, and don’t scare people. Actually, if you look even remotely like the guy in this mugshot, just don’t talk to people at all… you’re scaring them.

    Thanks, that is all.

  32. Someone please find the treasure this search season, Forrest, and his family need this thing to be over. There certainly are “nuts” out there, and I am not talking about pecans.

    STAY SAFE ALL, and good luck


    • Searchers have been saying all of these things and more since this Chase has begun…There seems to be repetitive cycles…right now is the summer let down cycle and emotions are on a different level than the other months. As more time goes by, who knows what will transpire. It is up to the serious searchers to keep it fun and clean. I come here to Dal’s site for scraps and tidbits from Fenn and the heck with the drama…I know I have poked the hornets nest a few times and have learned to choose more carefully or just not say a thing. It’s all good clean fun in my book. Have fun folks…

    • JD,
      I’m not trying to buckheads with you… and yes there are nut case out there. Celebrities know this all too well, with the need to have the most advance security system, private body guards etc. all because they are just that, Celebrities. However, do those people stop acting, painting, becoming musicians, skip playing professional sports, becoming an Olympian Athlete etc. because of all the crazies in this world? Fenn has been around a long time, has enjoyed many fields of interest, employments, rubbed shoulder with the elite and the commoner… with all this under his belt… I’m sure he took into consideration that anything anyone does that draws attention to themselves, and there’ll always the nut jobs that will be knocking at the door of that attention.

      I for the live of me, don’t understand when someone, not just yourself, but other who have said the same, proclaim fenn and his family “need this thing to be over with” or as other have said in other ways… fenn want it found now… fenn is pushing to have it discovered and so on. I have to ask, IF any of this was remotely accurate don’t you think fenn would simply bring this to an end?

      “I thought it was the most atrocious thing that I’d ever done. But in the back of my mind I told myself if I’m sorry tomorrow I can go back and get the treasure chest.”

      Fenn is not responsible for others actions, stupidity, or crazy… nor can he control that. Not unlike other well know people. Should this craziness stop someone from doing a job, write a book, be an actor or even give folks a challenge to enjoy?

      All “I” have to do to meet a crazy nut job, is drive the highways in any USA state… and I’m not as popular as I would like to think I am.

      I’m pretty sure he put due diligence into this matter. The problem is not about ending anything… the problem is the fear to start something because we let those crazies into are heads.

      • It has been said, more than once, Forrest has thought (and or planned) for everything. If this is the case, I am sure Forrest has/had given consideration as to how he would react or act if and when someone indicated to him that the chase was about to come to an end.

        This may/or may not have occurred. Be that as it may. Forrest may/or may not want it to come to an end…and he isn’t telling at the moment.

        I have not been shy about stating that I “THINK” that I will return with the treasure on July 23rd. I could be VERY wrong, but hope that I am not.

        I guess that we will all know in about one month.

        If I do NOT find it, I will have one big supper of humble pie, served with crow.

        If I DO find it, we can all celebrate. ALL – including Forrest. What a THRILL this adventure has been!

        If Forrest has “nudged” me or any other searcher with his recent MW posts – Only Forrest knows.

        My interpretations of recent posts – 3 out of the past five COULD POSSIBLY have validated things that are in my solve. One was a general encouragement to ALL searchers, and a couple of others meant nothing to me.

        My interpretations could very easily be wrong. It has been FUN thinking that POSSIBLY Forrest was trying to give me a “nudge”…but it is just as possible that what was said, I MIS-interpreted.

        Either way, it has been FUN and a THRILL

        Good luck to ALL searchers, and STAY SAFE


        • Wait… what?! I thought this was about the “nuts” on this world and as you said ” Forrest, and his family need this thing to be over.”

          How’d we get back on the weekly words? or other avenues fenn comments with. I like B-ball as much as the next guy, but I can keep up with all this dribbling. Your Honor, I withdrawal my question.

        • JD,
          My knives are dull for now.
          Why do you want to wait until the 23rd of July?
          Is it the same reason why I am waiting for the water to go down?

          • YUP -YUP – Water is too high to check where I am confident the TC is at. 23rd COULD be too soon, but have to try anyway.

            23rd = 2 months from last try and “Lucky” seventh visit and anniversary (7 months) since I started this quest. Lucky #7’s

            Plan to have a whole herd of members with me on what I hope is my final search

            When are you going back out Jake?


      • “…the problem is the fear to start something because we let those crazies into {our} heads.”

        So true! Stay strong in your beliefs, hold tight to your dreams and never give up.

          • A+ for substance… D- for execution? …lol. Sorry about my typing skills, and apologies for my lack of proof reading…

            Melanie, how much do you charge for proof reading? I have learn one valuable lesson… you can’t proof read your own book and you can’t trust spellcheck.

          • Not sure sure I get your gist, mais si, nevr trust spelchex, Rule 1.

            Ah, you can proof your own book. But only if you’re willing to re-read it enough times to make you bat s**t crazy. BTDT.

            Since you asked, my fees are negotiable. Sharing your solve for HOB is a start….. ‘-)

          • melanie,
            What did you call me?
            LOL… ya might want cash on the barrel, instead of my hoB…
            And yes, I am that Bat thing you mentioned. I have read my book more time than I have commented on this blog. But I don’t want to get to far off the topic here, so I’ll give you my thought on hoB.
            The “put in below” may indicate that WWWH, canyon down, NFBTFTW might be below the hoB. Most would say this is out of order… I think that this sentence in the poem stands alone, not in between where it is placed in the poem.

            The clues are in consecutive order, yet it’s possible that this clue is telling us… it’s our starting point?

            If I said, I want you to travel the I-90 corridor east to west… does this give you a place to start? If I now add put it at Buffalo, is that now your starting point?

            I simple told you what to travel, then added where to start. The clues are in consecutive order IF you follow [ my instructions ] them “precisely/correctly”
            My suggestion is this… we might be taking the after the fact information given to us … too literally … without thinking of other possibilities.

            Will that get a couple chapters proof read? lol.

          • My God, Seeker – if you proof more than you post, you must be writing quite a tome! Wait, let me guess…. “A User’s Guide to the Fundamentals of Philosophical and Analytical Deciphering of Riddles, Conundrums & Enigmas”. Ya gotta have a long title to go with the sheer weight of such book. ‘-) lol, imo.

            But, to get back on topic, I think your hypothesis is a distinct possibility. You and I are in the same camp on that. My current thinking distills it further, compressing this sentence as it applies to the physical lay. I used to think there was a “path”, somewhat strung out, point A to point B, and so on. Lately, I think the “path” is both more ephemeral (HOW it leads you) and much more compact/concise (WHERE it leads you). This is still very nascent and unformed thought.

            That said, here’s my caveat: I’ve abandoned all my past solves. I’m back to zero. Which means I’m in that nebulous netherworld of groping my way to a new understanding of what the poem’s “big picture” may be, in hopes it will inform a solid start/end. Which is to say, at this point I don’t have jack (or Indulgence). So, “imo” is totally redundant here.

            But Hey, yeah…feel free to shoot me that chapter with your solve for HOB. lol. m

          • Melaine,

            Personally I like to hear others that have no problems with going back to the ‘beginning’ A fresh look at the poem from a different aspect might be what is needed. Fenn keeps telling us to read the poem over and over, to back to the poem, read the book ha reference, and go back to the poem. I have to think that one of the reason to repeat go back to the poem is, to read it with fresh thoughts each time till something bite ya in the … The down fall of reading the poem one way limits those fresh thoughts… or as fenn stated the “WhatIF’s”

            My book is 300 pages and has nothing to do with the chase, But I have learn a lot writing it… one is, the professionals want an arm,leg, and your first born work on it… the other is, I hate commas… lol.
            I’ll keep your offer in mind.

  33. No place to place a thanks to Jake, so will do it here.

    Apology accepted – We will continue to have our differences, but hopefully we will use dull knives next time.

    Good Luck Jake – Hope you find all you seek – STAY SAFE


  34. Hey, has anyone heard about the guy who hid a Bronze box in the mountains north of Santa Fe…It has a bunch of gold coins and other gold objects in it ? Some guy named Forrest wrote a poem and everything…Anybody know where it is? Think I’m gonna have some ginger ale with some nuts…

  35. FYI:
    Time is running out…
    We have over two pages of entries in the Essence of Fennboree Photo Contest. All entries must be in Sunday at midnight.

          • Hello, All! Here is a little bit of an update. I am not in the woods, nor am I partying. I worked a 17 hour day on Thursday and got behind on reading my subsciptions to this here gathering place. Working Saturday didn’t help either. The last time I checked, my Treasure hunting grounds still had snow. I want to avoid going while snow is clearly visible from miles away. Meanwhilst, I shall continue studying the poem and making sure my tires have proper inflation. I feel the obsession coming over me again.
            Dang it, here I go again craving olives and a gusher. I have really got to get a grip. I’m in the mood to see a rainbow and hang out in bear country and live on the edge. I want to see colors of gradeur. Somebody get me a glass of spring water. I need to keep my hydration up. I’ll keep calm because the time will be nearer soon enough. Let’s not dwell on muddy comments, but on what ever may be.
            I will tentatively plan on going on my Thrilling Chase the weekend immediately following Independence Day.

            Hi, Spallies

            I ran spell check this time. Any possible misspellings of words in this comment are clearly intentional

          • Dang Slurbs,
            “my Treasure hunting grounds still had snow.”
            You must be way up there in elevation & Latitude.
            I did not see where zap had you searching but I guess there is still snow everywhere in the Rockies.

          • Jake, I checked for snow since my most recent comment and there is currently snow in my area. A couple of weeks aught to clear it up.

    • Nope, I was working a fun little event. A bonfire party sounds fun pdenver. : )

    • At the moment, I’m in my sedan lifted by a crane that’s attached under a helicopter. On my way to the mountain top and what is most assuredly the correct solve.

    • Went a couple weeks ago on my 1st ever Fenn Outing. Came to a solution that I was so sure after 4 hours of research. Went and found nothing but after I got back realized I was off my blaze by around 3,500 ft. Heading out again this weekend. If I don’t find the treasure this time I’ll be out of ideas lol.

  36. so its been a few days, I’m back safe in sound nothing wounded but my pride. All of the following is IMO that said don’t brush it off too quickly, Most of my opinion instantly changed when I found this place that fit almost none of my search criteria.

    As much as I would like to go into vivid and annoying detail about everything that went wrong within the last 100 miles of my return trip I will sum it up with: A curse upon ye who wished me luck. Everything was smooth sailing up until the very end and improbable misfortune struck and struck hard. But you don’t care about the trip home only the exploration part.

    As many of you know I in brief had an epiphany when I was boots on the ground and it has led me to be as sure as anyone like me can be of where the tc is. And even if it is not there it severely narrows down my search parameters.

    To the best of my admittedly limited knowledge there is a very obvious (in hindsight) factor that no one is addressing. Suffice to say I think this is what Fenn may have been talking about when he said something along the lines of (sorry no citation): a deep thinker could solve it using pure logic. I think it is safe to say all of you are looking for a treasure chest. This is the wrong way to go about it, the treasure chest was originally intended to be rather incidental. There is a utilitarian aspect that has been ignored this whole time.

    I changed many of the things I assumed (I didn’t even realize how much I had assumed until it hit me) the instant I realized this. I plan to go back to the spot with less hydrophobic backup and a better blaze come mid sept. So lets make a sport of it: The first dead give away is the name of the chest “Indulgence” not “opulence” not “excess” not “greed” nor “envy” nor “gluttony” but… “Indulgence” and that name does not fit it… an indulgence is a single exception to an otherwise adhered to pattern not a pattern changing fortune. I think I now know why it is called that… do you?

    Aside from me being playful and cryptic I had a blast in YNP. I went off the trails often saw a great deal of unique things, nearly got charged by buffalo twice (for the record not my fault and a pox upon anyone who stops traffic to take a picture of dangerous wildlife next to the road… they don’t like motorcycles and I don’t have a big metal cage to protect me unlike some very inconsiderate and selfish tourists).

    I checked about 15 spots along the Madison and fire hole rivers mostly, made 2 dedicated attempts to further explore the only spot I found that showed any real promise in my mind but my boldness was not up to par and I had to regroup. I fell in an unmarked and thankfully not to hot (but incredibly smelly) mudpot along the nez pierce creek. I fed a wild chipmunk from my hand and made friends with a very chatty and frankly quite odd raven. I hiked perhaps 45-50 total miles over the course of a week and made some friends with total strangers.

    So, How did the rest of you guys month go so far?

    • Its never as it seems, until you see it as it was meant to be seen.

      Your post was a fun read this morning Dys, You stated:
      “I think it is safe to say all of you are looking for a treasure chest. This is the wrong way to go about it, the treasure chest was originally intended to be rather incidental. There is a utilitarian aspect that has been ignored this whole time.”

      I couldn’t agree more. The lure of gold was the ignitor to light the fire. The purpose of the chase is much more than for ‘that’ indulgence… The alternative meaning/usage might be what is needed to seek.

      • I guess along the route to indulgence, the seeker is meant to learn some ‘answers’ too.

      • While I don’t disagree, I meant my statement to be as literal as possible. I mean utilitarian as in I now believe the chest of gold is gold for a reason but its not a lure and save for that one honestly very abstract (to me at least not to most people) and slightly theatrical (the lure) reason the chest may as well have been a sack of hammers and could have fulfilled the majority of what I suspect was its purpose.

        Okay maybe a sack of hammers would not work equally well but that is a figure of speech and its applicable.

    • Except for the problems you had during the last 100 miles going home, and the battles with the Buffalo, sounds as though you had a rewarding trip.

      Take along a couple of buddies next trip. You asked that we not wish you good luck, so I won’t – but STAY SAFE


    • Glad you made it back safe Dys,
      At least the searching part of your trip seemed to put you in the right spot & found some new things.
      I did some searching in the Firehole & couldn’t find anything that I thought was a blaze except for the wavy river grass.
      My searching did not go to smoothly. I am coming to grips that a 50 year old man as myself couldn’t make it never mind an 80 old man make the trek near the fork. Large boulders, high water, fallen trees all over the place including very many going across the creek. Maybe got within 100′ but couldn’t go any further.
      I am rethinking my solve before I make another trip.
      Ohhh, the agony of defeat.

        • charlie,
          I turned 50 in Nov. from what my Birth Certificate states.
          Either way, I don’t see how Forrest could have put it where I thought.
          I will have a few more gray hairs by the time you get this mod reply.
          I know Dal owns this site & would like to thank him & Goofy for letting me stay around even though I wrinkle the skin at times.

      • If it makes you feel any better one of the things that I instantly changed my mind about was the blaze.

        I now think if you have been wise and found the blaze means to bring a light. I had considered that it might mean that the area is only lit in the morning sun (because early to bed and early to rise makes a man healthy WEALTHY and WISE) but on the summer solstice at both sunrise and high noon the spot was still in shadow (and I waited several hours for any sign of an opening). And for the record if anyone had said that before my trip I would have quickly dismissed it as too simple and strange.

        I had a decent light but given that I had to lighten my load a great deal to travel via motorcycle I opted for one of my smaller ones that I had not modified/repaired all to hell or one of my custom lanterns. I’m pretty good a jury rigging things, especially electrical things but so far away from my tools or a decent sized store I was hard pressed to meet the task at hand. The flashlight was not waterproof (but i managed to fix that with some of the aforementioned jury rigging skills) but even then it did not help much in the water despite it being relatively clear, moving kicked up too much mud and the field modifications did dim the light considerably.

        But I’m in the same boat with you… so close and yet so far. Ill say it again I hate dark water… I don’t mind the dark, I don’t mind water but for some reason the combination of the two sets me so much on edge I want to vomit. I did at least to my credit take the plunge despite my dread but could not bring myself to do it a second time or the numerous other times it would take to do a proper search in water that logically is possibly less dangerous than a public swimming pool.

        While we are at it another thing that I instantly changed my mind on when I saw this place. I would have insisted that it was not underwater. Now I think it absolutely must be.

        • ” I had considered that it might mean that the area is only lit in the morning sun (because early to bed and early to rise makes a man healthy WEALTHY and WISE)”

          Excellent… but did you take this thought a step or two further? Why the answer to the question in stanza 5… why will your effort will be worth the cold in stanza 6?

          If y’all like subtle hints from the book… it was a cold night when he shimmied out the window, and braved being in the wood.

          If you have been “wise” and “found the blaze” look quickly down your quest to cease…

          The RM’s are still moving in 3009 it will be harder…

          Kinda reminds me of a song; Good morning star shine the Earth says hello….

          Anyways, that is about as cryptic as I can get.

          • Oh yes I feel I’ve covered all the steps and have even managed to fill in gaps that I don’t think anyone knew about.

            As far as the question in stanza 5… how is this for cryptic: I have an answer to the whole question, I don’t even think anyone else has the whole question. I am making that arrogant guess based purely upon how hard it is to contain my excitement and just go blabbing about how clever I am coupled with the fact that many of the folks here spend months of dedicated and strange research on weird math and history only to give it away at a moments notice loudly and insistently, I think I would have heard this by now especially as it is likely to strike a cord with at least half the folks on here.

            In case you missed my post while I was out in the field the reason you will be cold is because of the water… it was very cold dark water ominous but not dangerous. If its in the part that I think it is in there is no possibility of getting it without getting wet and cold (believe me I sat there for hours trying to come up with one that didn’t involve robots while I built up the nerve to jump in even once).

            Its just deep enough that you have to go below the surface to check the bottom (ruling out freakishly tall people) holding your breath seems like a good reason to do so “quickly” while “looking down”. Also because its so dark you will need to have brought your own light (blaze) thus the “been wise” as opposed to “are wise” that in all but the few situations we have mentioned would seem to be a more sensible way to put it.

            I was rolling the thought around in my head for a bit that you might have to be walking along the river or creek at sunrise. Or at the very least that when the river/creek took a turn dead east that it might be buried at the bend. But that did not seem like enough information to go on and would involve a great deal of digging given my lack of a metal detector.

          • Dys,
            You are the first person I have read that refs “look quickly down” as holding your breath & seeing what is under the surface of the water if I am correct.
            There may have been more here before us with this theory but I couldn’t find them on this site although there are many lurkers that don’t comment.
            If quickly is straightforward then I think it could only mean it’s moving where you need to focus your sight to it before it moves or you need to hold your breath (which you cannot do too long) & peek in the cold water.
            This has been my theory for a few months now.
            Why else would you have to look “quickly” down?
            Why can’t it take a long time?
            Hold your breath IMO.

          • You know me I’m not one to usually cling to a single explanation or solve (current status being an exception) The only other thing I could think to explain “quickly” was if the blaze was something massive and it would take a considerable investment of time to explore the lowest point or below it. But for now for this and an ever growing mountain of other reasons I’m going to stick mostly to the holding the breath thing.

          • Dys-
            For me “quickly” has never been an issue because I know this is a poem and I know he needs a certain number of syllables to make the line fit the poem’s meter. So after he decided he wanted to tell us to look down…Then he needed to put it in a form that matched his poem…
            After writing “Look down and you’ll see it”… he needed to dress it up to match his poetry. In the end he needed a two syllable adjective for “down” to make the line work…
            What would be an alternative to “quickly”?
            Slowly, lovely, cutely, wetly, ???
            Directly has too many syllables… so does eagerly…
            I think he landed on “quickly” because it fit and because it doesn’t do anything more than elicit conversation about why it’s there…
            Fenn being Fenn…

          • I have an idea for “look quickly down.”
            Let’s say you’re standing at the edge of a a very high cliff or a canyon and you want to look down, for me it would have to be quickly. Like looking down the Empire State building from the top floor. Very scarey, so look quickly.

          • I’ve also considered that in almost every thing I attempt to make sense of, but it seems an aberration, Ill be it a minor one. Why not surely, fixedly, clearly, sharply, warily, or exactly. There are better filler words that do not imply urgency.

            Not saying your wrong but every word is potentially important. That said this particular word I do not think is integral to my solve. Were It any of the other ones I had mentioned I would have still come to the same conclusion.

          • Dys-
            In my opinion, an application of realism based on actual human conditions can be just as valuable as researching every exotic definition for every word in the poem. Some solutions are very imaginative. Others are as mundane as directions to the corner store. My guess is that the truth according to Fenn…lays somewhere in the middle. For me the trick is in understanding when to apply my imagination and where to apply my intuition. So far, my solutions haven’t proven out, but maybe yours will…

            BTW..I think exactly is three syllables unless I pronounce it like the deputy that pulled me over..”Zactly how fast you think you was goin?”

          • The use of a Metal detector is a way of looking quickly down…. some are made for under water use as well.

        • We are searching totally different areas, but I agree with you when you say,”Now I think it absolutely must be.”

          Stanza #1 says. “As I have gone alone IN there and with my treasures bold.” The treasure chest is IN somewhere, and solving a couple of other lines = IN water.

          Or at least, that is my opinion.

          Good luck and STAY SAFE.


          • could not agree more… at least now. Some how I got it in my head that something he said made that not fit and now for the life of me going back I can’t find a single quote that contradicts that.

            Well we know what making assumptions make us in return. If not for that folly I might have been better prepared. I literally took out all my swimming gear to make room for things I hardly ended up using.

          • Well, not that my vote counts for anything, but as sure as you two (JD and Dys) are that the chest is in water, I’m 100% confident it isn’t. Now I would have no problem with the chest being somewhat proximal to water or even *behind* water (e.g. behind a waterfall), but I will never be convinced it’s submerged in it. To borrow Fenn’s words, that would just be an expensive folly.

          • Well zaphod, you have my ear if you can give me a logical reason it should not/cannot be in water. I am trying really hard to give up on this spot and I hate water so you would be doing me a favor.

            A few people have given me reasons already but they are so far as I can tell based on faulty assumptions, misquotes and presumptions of inherent danger to the searcher or the tc and its contents when water is involved. And Ill say it again in case you missed it. I would have completely agreed with you before I went on my trip and had my little epiphany.

          • Hi Dys — I think the burden of proof as to why the chest should or shouldn’t be somewhere falls on the parties who believe it’s in the more reckless location. But I’ll play along. Hopefully we can both agree that Forrest didn’t dump the chest in a creek, stream or river. Someone posted in the last year (sorry, can’t find it, but it was funny) something to the effect that the result would be “here a coin, there a coin, everywhere a coin, coin.” One 6″ downpour is all it takes to turn the tamest creek into a powerful, debris-filled, muddy torrent. Not an auspicious ending for Fenn’s treasures.

            For the same reason, it would be foolish to secret the chest on dry land too close to such a body of water. So you must be talking about a comparatively shallow pond or watering hole — perhaps spring-fed. Now at least this eliminates the swiftly moving water problem. But you still have to ask yourself whether Forrest would choose to submerge all the items that are within the chest (to say nothing of the chest itself). Sure, the gold and gems will be fine, but I don’t think Fenn’s wax-sealing job on his miniature autobiography is going to last very long, and the wood-lining of the chest will be ruined in no time. And what about the bracelet? Is it waterproof? (I’m asking — I don’t know.) I guess you could counter-argue that perhaps he put all the items double-sealed inside a pair of big Ziplock bags, but It just seems to me that Forrest took reasonable steps to make the chest contents water-resistant (not waterproof) against wet ground, rain, snow, etc.

            While Forrest no longer has designs on expiring atop his treasure, he clearly did at one time. Given your aversion to cold, dark water, do you imagine this is where Fenn would have wanted to draw his final breath? A bit hard to smell the pines and see furry meadow or forest creatures from that vantage point. On a final note, at one time Forrest admitted that the chest ~could~ be scorched by fire. I suppose a raging forest fire could evaporate a small pond and then burn the chest hidden within, but we’re really going out on a limb to make this work.

            So given all that, the more sensible question to ask is why you believe he’d put the chest in water?

          • All fair points zaphod, It was not my intent to imply that the burden is in any way upon you.

            I think the safety of the contents of the chest was my largest reason for not believing it was in water.

            There is little to no current in this water, so no coins everywhere. Even in a flood.

            The bracelet as I understand it has a clasp that is not waterproof but precautions were taken with that as well.

            As far as woodland critters and pine. I could smell pine on the surface easily and fed a chipmunk from my hand at the edge of the water.

            I think he said that the CLUES could be destroyed by a forest fire and that still holds true for this solve. It would be hard but not impossible for a Forrest fire to damage this location.

            Counter points:

            Everyone keeps talking about preservation for hundreds or even thousands of years. Correct me if I am wrong but I could only find quotes regarding the poem being meant to stand the test of time. Poem =/= chest. I mentioned it above but Ill say it again… I think the chest is utilitarian and is frankly not terribly important to fenn in his personal big picture and is only incidental to something else I suspect that I am not ready to divulge.

            The chest is important to us from our perspective but it is just a pittance to him. A puddle may as well be the ocean to an ant. We are seeing things from the lens of our own ego not from fenns point of view. If everything in there was as dear to him as many suspect it is I doubt he could bring himself to leave it out in the wilds or give it away. I don’t believe fenn cares about the chest or at least as much as we do or we think he does.

            The converse of the preservation argument is that water would be the best way to insure that his body (and perhaps the chest as well) would not be dragged off by a large scavenger or predator. Water would disperse the smell of the body and it would decompose in the least intrusive way a body possibly can. If left alone for a couple of weeks in anything but a desert you could probably track the chest by the unholy smell.

            In my experience it is easier to prepare for a known threat than a probable one and water is an easier battle to fight than fire. Being underwater reduces the risk of EVERYTHING being destroyed in a fire. I would rather trust that wax to the bottom of a pond than a raging inferno. Fenn to the best of my knowledge has neither confirmed no denied that he took extra precautions or made modifications to the chest, Ill say it again water is an easier battle than fire and the chest was already half way there being made of bronze. A couple of thick vaccum seal bags and a dark place to reduce its exposure you UV light that would break down the plastic or a heathy layer of easily removed tar or wax and the tc is good for at least a few decades.

            Fenn loves rivers and fishing is it not in some way poetic or theatrical that he would be feeding his beloved fish and forever be a part of his rivers, streams and lakes?

        • Dys,
          You did have a waterproof sandwich as well as a flashlight which both would get soggy anyway.
          I poly bagged & ironed my wand metal detector twice & siliconed the headphones to make them waterproof only not to need them.
          I was near my spot at the summer solstice as well & planned in advance accordingly.
          Could be a very tight window & something you have to do when you are around the blaze or Brown?
          Kicked up a lot of mud myself here & there & if I were a trout, maybe would have been better off.
          Dark water & dark skies don’t sit to well with me as well, whether out on the ocean, lake or in the woods & it looks intimidating.
          Something tells me water is part of the solve.
          I try to stay away from public swimming pools for obvious reasons.
          I’d rather take a spill in a natural pool or creek even though it’s very cold as I did there.
          I’m still drying out…

          • I don’t eat sandwiches… I have celliac disease and gluten free bread molds if you even think about calling it a mean name, this makes for bad trail food. My granola however was about as waterproof as any food could be expected to be. If it gets wet it just becomes oatmeal I guess.

            I like dark skies, I like rain and storms (but I’d not be caught dead in more than a light drizzle out to sea), I definitely prefer the night to the day.

            I took some absurd pictures of my field modifications. Electrical tape everywhere.

            I have thought of all of those possibilities and that is most assuredly the case, its the reason why it won’t be found on accident. It requires a deliberate and unusual behavior that no sensible person would do in their daily life. I don’t think its a tight window but timing may be a factor.

            I went swimming no problem while I was out there was clear water and sunny skies but not in that place, not at all.

        • So when Fenn said he was going to fling himself on the chest, he either meant he was going to submerge himself underwater to die, or float away?

    • Yes, indulgence was a suspicious word to use. It is an anagram of “ending clue”. but I wouldn’t put any weight to that. And yes, I think I know why. It does fit with “his” rainbow statement…

    • Dys, I like your post and your thinking. Yes, I also believe indulgence as well as other words are of great importance. If you had a chance a week or two ago I posted that Forrest portrays himself as a Billy Goat. Billy the Kid, William(Captain) Kidd, and in scrapebook nine has two horns like a Billy Goat. June is riding a goat in TFTW and under the picture he has the inscription Billy the kid. There is also a picture of a map on the internet that Forrest points to 3 Billy goats. And many others.
      Anyhow he obviously is making a reference to him and billy goat. A billy goat is also the scapegoat or whipping boy. A whip is an arm of a windmill. Forrest took the blame for June and would get switched and he killed those villagers in the story war for me and he took the blame as the congressmen sat in there offices back home. He is a scapegoat and wants to atone for his sins.
      Now look up the biblical or archaic meaning of indulgence!
      It is those who say certain prayers or do good deeds will have some or all of their punishment in purgatory remitted.
      Think about that if you where about to die.
      Forrest also did a scrapebook on purgatory. It is the one with the flames with a figure in it. I forget what it is called , Reis a ques? or something like that.
      Indulgence is an old term look up what it really means.

      Hope this helps Dys.

      • Hello DPT. This is interesting and well thought out. What I question is the biblical part. I keep thinking I read there wasn’t any biblical relations to the poem.

      • You got the meaning I got but not the reason I got it. Clever but go a bit deeper here. Its a price all right. I don’t know if forrest is a religious man but the influence is most assuredly a factor.

        • Dys, you have stirred my curiosity. Care to give me a hint. Ask a question to me and I will help you as well. I am intrigued by your search area. I hope I can help someone find it if I can’t myself. Why not you?

          • Not that I am saying there is no merit in being helped but Ive narrowed this particular solve down to an area no larger than perhaps 20 square feet that I personally cannot bring myself to search. Any reason you would be unable to search on your own? Just curious. I plan to tentatively head back in Sept with some backup.

            I’ve got a complete (in my mind more than complete solve) That I was simply ill prepared for when I was out in the wood.

            Apropos of nothing (wink*) have you seen the movie “second hand lions”? both of those old men are of the same shall we say “archetype” as fenn. Watch it, that movie gave me some of the ammunition I needed to (I think at least) get in his head.

            No, I am not implying that there are clues in an unrelated movie but that it really helped me understand the matter with more clarity. Upon my revelation I actually recited a phrase from the movie. Worst case scenario you have watched a pretty good (in my opinion) movie.

          • Dys, I have not seen the movie. But I heard of it. I will try to watch it.
            I have searched but I know I am missing something. I am pretty positive I know what the blaze is, but can’t find THE blaze due to not having THE WWH. There are many north of Sante Fe and I had the wrong one.
            I put everything together and figured out the blaze I believe. It all matches. But like Forrest says without WWH I might as well stay at home and play canasta.
            It’s folly.
            You helped me with a movie, I will help you with the blaze.
            In war for me Forrest is standing by a Pile of Rocks Waving his arms like a windmill.
            He does this to get the pilots attention for rescue. That’s where he is.
            To wave arm like a windmill is to flail.Another word for windmill arm is Whip.
            A pile of rocks is a heap, dump. Think of his call sign litter.
            This should be a good start to figuring out the blaze. Oh yeah, look at the root or archaic meaning of blaze. It means to swell or blow up. A heap or pile of rocks swell up, so does an alluvial fan to spread out. That’s what a glacier does at the terminal end or moraine. It dumps debris out like a conveyor belt. Theses things happened along time ago when the first North American was stepping off the glacier bridge in Montana and Wyoming.
            Look at the picture of Forrest back yard. His chair sits by the pile of rocks by his pond. The blaze. That chair sits under the tree next to the swell of rocks.
            Read a banco in the book TTOTC. Look at picture. Pile of rocks.
            I have more to define the rock pile as well. As I said this is a great start for ya!

      • DPT, I enjoyed your post regarding the archaic/biblical meaning of Indulgence. Tender mercy and forgiveness freely given by Our Creator and people I’ve offended are what I hope for when my time on earth is spent. That said, I have no idea what Forrest believes. His memoirs show he was raised Babtist; FF states he is not religious; rather a very spiritual person. Only he could clarify what that means to him. On the surface, it doesn’t appear that he wanted TTOTC to be a statement of faith, rather a thrilling chase through beautiful country.

        Also interesting to me that he previously referred to the bronze treasure chest as Tarzan. Hard to rectify how he swung from Tarzan to Indulgence, but clearly something changed his mind.

        You might be interested in an old poem called the Quality of Mercy. I’ll post it on the poetry page.

        • Thanks Anna. I appreciate your information and agree with you. I don’t think he has a biblical solve to the chase. I am just having a hard time connecting the information I have found to THE geological location.

        • http://www.grammarphobia.com/blog/2012/08/clue-clew.html

          “The OED says “clew” originally meant a ball formed by rolling pieces together, as in a ball of yarn or twine”

          “This notion is at least as old as Greek mythology. Legend has it that Theseus unwound a ball of string as he made his way to the heart of the Labyrinth, then killed the dreaded Minotaur and followed the string to find his way out again.”

        • Anna, I never knew he first thought of Tarzan for a name of the chest. I have been thinking of that and it just came to me. Tar as in tarry. I looked up tar and its definition, it can also mean pitch tar. Also a root word of pitch is to prick.
          Also tar can mean beat the tar out of someone. The word tarry may be very important. I have to do more research. Anyone else have anything on tar? Oh yes almost forgot, the slang of tar is a seamen or sailor.???

          • Tarry – not tar – means blackish in color, like tar. Coupled with scant, which can mean a flat stone, like a grave marker, and you have a blackish colored flat stone. Marvel can mean awe – But can mean nevertheless, gaze can mean examine. Therefore you have:

            “Nevertheless, look in awe at the tarry scant” (sic)

            Not your typical interpretation, but it works in my solve.

            Good luck to all and STAY SAFE


          • Interesting JD and I see your usage of Tar as well. A flat black stone could work or black butte?

            Tarry is the verb of Tar. Tar is the root word.
            Interesting to me is that Forrest once thought of naming the chest Tarzan, and puts tarry in the poem.???

          • If “tar” is considered as a root, “tarring” would be the verb form. As a verb, “tarry” doesn’t have a connection to “tar”. As an adjective, yes.

  37. Re “overrate the complexity”, I’ve been combing back through old posts from Fenn. I don’t know USAF terminology or equipment well enough to know if some of these things are related to a USAF angle. For example, he references a chinook during one of the aberration posts. I know chinook is an “east side rockies” weather term, and I used to think this motivated me to look in Colorado Springs. But now… I see Chinook, I see My War For Me, I see an Osprey as heavy loads, I see several other USAF ideas, and I wonder how much is targeted at a USAF audience. That might make sense to me.

    Any USAF folks out there that have analyzed for possible USAF synonyms in this way? Like is there something that might be the name of equipment that could also mean wwwh? Some sort of compressor valve? And a blaze? Sorry, just thinking out loud.

    • EC, while I ‘think’ fenn stated if you were to read any part of the book, read My War For Me… don’t quote me on that!
      However, I did remember this Q&A…

      “Is any specialized knowledge required to find the treasure? For instance, something learned during your time in the military, or from a lifetime of fly fishing? Or do you really expect any ordinary average person without your background to be able to correctly interpret the clues in the poem? ~mdavis19

      No specialized knowledge is required mdavis19, and I have no expectations. My Thrill of the Chase book is enough to lead an average person to the treasure.f”

      Just for thought

      • Seeker –

        You do realize that Mr Fenn did NOT say the poem will lead you to the treasure ……. Oh I forgot – the poem is in the book. IMO it’s extremly hard without the book. Oh well, I tried to convince you….

        • Well the book is not special knowledge. I never said the book is not helpful, why would I argue with the Author… The book is a reference… a helpful tool.

          I guess the real question is… what is special knowledge? I see the book as informative, useful… special knowledge is knowing about head pressures, bible verses, codes, Latin, even other languages other than the one the poem was written in. etc.

          Yet, I do believe the poem can stand on it own… the book can not.

          • What I would like to know is , can FF’s rainbow be defined without the book?

            Can the start of the rainbow be found without the book?

          • UA,

            That is the million dollar question imo.
            It was puzzling the first time I read… will lead to the end of my rainbow… why would the “treasure” not be first or seemingly lesser in priority, if you will.

            My guess, and I repeat, guess… it is to mean the end of life. The indicator that set the wheel in motion.

            “Can the start of the rainbow be found without the book?” I guess that would be the preface of the book. But I think you were looking more for a physical place. So, that’s the best I can offer.

  38. did you know that the TC is now being guarded by little cub grizzly bears..If I can just get them to leave I can make a dash and retrieve the TC…go figure mama bear is now laying on the TC..Remember TC is real and is waiting for u to retrieve it..

  39. Thoughts:
    “The person that finds it, is going to be a person who thinks and plans and has an analytical mind and uses logic, not someone who has a hunch.”

    Forrest, you talk about the clues being difficult to solve (opposite being easy) yet that the solutions are simple (opposite being complex). Yet when I read the stories of other searchers, I often think that their solutions to the clues tend to be either easy solutions or made out to be very complex and over-thought. Are there any suggestions you would give in approaching the clues and solving them?” ~Craig
    “Craig, there is no substitute for thinking and planning and observing and looking at maps, unless it’s the desire to keep it simple.f”

    “The poem in my book is something that I changed over and over again. When you read the poem it looks like just, just simple words there. But I guarantee you that I worked on that. I felt like an architect drawing that poem.”


    While there are other quotes similar to the ones above, I tried to keep this short…
    Why are we to plan?
    looking at maps
    An analytical mind
    use logic
    Even other comments about imagination…
    What is it about the solving/finding of the poem we need to plan for?

    • Seeker,
      To plan you need information.
      What information is needed to plan?
      I can only say I planned my trip at the wrong time & what appears to be the wrong place.
      I looked at the topo maps & did not seem to be tough to trek but when I could only go so far I began to question the spot. Maybe I was looking at the wrong maps.
      I do like to analyze as most but if we don’t have the right information it goes out the window.
      As far as logic goes I will have to watch some old Star Trek repeats to better understand.
      Maybe I let my imagination get away from me or maybe I just don’t know how to read the poem, either way I am rethinking things.

      • Best of luck to you Jake in your re-think. Experience breeds insight. Insight breeds success.

        STAY SAFE and HAVE FUN!


  40. Seeker, sometimes I think the 2 most important words from Forrest’s statement, “difficult but not impossible” are But + Not or a visual of omega (looks like a butt) + alpha (fish knot). Start at the end, work back to the beginning….Santa Fe to Montana via the scenic Byways in Colo and Wyo.
    The poem takes you to all of Forrest’s favorite memories in those states. The trick is to locate what and who mean the most to him.

    • Hello Anna. Good thoughts. I wonder if a searcher didn’t have the knowledge of “difficult but not impossible,” could they still be directed in such a way for which you speak via poem?

    • That’s all fine Anna, but what about planning, what is it we need to understand to plan for? I highly doubt this is telling us to bring extra socks. Is there something we need to know beforehand that the poem may explain?

      I have wondered if some of the comments that seem relatively nonessential are more important than we suspected. Flashlight, food, a guy with pickup and a bedroll. Little Indy and disable people, be able to walk several miles, some people [ such as a 3 year old girl ] will need assistance … are we needing to plan a short stay? I’m not talking setting up camp, making smores and hiking to the chest in one afternoon… I’m implying there might be a reason for at least an over night stay in the location because the poem may require this.

      Does tarry scant with marvel gaze only imply the gazing upon the chest, the gold and the trinkets within? Quickly implies time… tarry scant might imply the same, a short amount of time… something needed to be viewed within that window of time. Fenn may have hinted that this challenge, the poem, the execution of all this, was one of the things in life he actually planned.

      “I’m not flippant about this. It’s not something somebody is going to be able to do on spring break or a Sunday afternoon picnic. I’m looking a hundred years down the road, maybe a thousand years down the road. People don’t understand that.”

      Well, Why can’t we find it in one Sunday “afternoon,” if we are to be certain beforehand? Why is it that I couldn’t be able to do on “spring break.” If fenn feels these time lines are improbable… What is it that the poem is trying to relay?

      The blaze… seems to indicated a marker or point. Yet the one thing a blaze or marker does is direct us. Is the blaze simply the ending point or is there more to do that we need to plan out?

      • Seeker, It’s been my past opinion Forrest meant that one could not “solve” it over spring break and also that you may have to road trip several places. Now, you have me worried and I have a headache. Tylenol please. Good night.

        • Sorry about the headache… I’ve been called a pain before.

          But why worry? My point was to suggest a possibility to what we have been told to do. This is not the first time I asked this question. But has you can see with all the number of responses…lol… many don’t seem to think of it as the poem itself telling us we need to be prepared, to plan…

          I guess it could just means, make sure ya pack the camera.

      • “So hear me all and listen good,
        Your efforts will be worth the cold,…”

        PLAN on it being cold when you retrieve the TC…even in summer, where it is, it will probably
        be cold. Wear waders, and maybe long sleeved
        gloves to protect against hypothermia.

        PLAN on it taking at least two trips to carry out the TC and its contents.

        PLAN on not being observed.

        PLAN on going “in there” (Where ever that is) when you go to retrieve the TC.

        PLAN on it NOT being easy, it will take effort, both mental and physical to solve the riddles in the poem.

        These, In MY Opinion, are the things that I feel that Forrest told us to PLAN for. Just MY opinion.

        Good luck to ALL searchers – PLAN ahead, and STAY SAFE


        • JD, out of all of those PLANS, the only one that I am not planning on is the being cold where the Treasure will be waiting when I plan to get it (en route, yes, but not while taking it out of there). All of the other PLANS you mention hold true in my solve. My tentative extraction date/time… 7-16-16 between 10am-2pm. I shall make like I are educated.

          • Awesome, Slurbs. we have the same approximate extraction date. If we’re there at the same time i’ll go half-sies with you. we can split it by weight…. i’ll even let you keep the chest! 😉

          • Jean-Claude Schmid, it is highly unlikely we have the same solve. If the stars align as such and fate deals the cards right, we’ll both be very happy. Any questions?

  41. In computer science, the “Turing Test” is a benchmark for evaluating systems that attempt to mimic human behavior. While in a chat or some other form of communication, if a machine is able to convince a human that the machine is also human, it is said to have exhibited artificial intelligence. Groups that design AI systems regularly compete and try to pass this test.

    At a recent competition, a computer system designed to write poetry was pitted against actual human poets. You can find that story here:


    What’s interesting about this competition is that poems written by computers do a pretty good job of matching the structure of a poem. The end result looks a lot like what you might expect a sonnet to look like, with rhyme and meter, and it reads just like a poem. It just doesn’t mean anything. It’s nonsense. There’s no narrative. As much as they try, they can’t seem to get the computer to act… well, human.

    I bring this up here because it’s pretty interesting stuff, but also because I think it would help a lot of searchers if they weren’t simply trying to match poem lines to locations. Forrest could have selected any medium he wanted to dish out clues for finding his treasure chest. He chose poetry. There’s few things we know for certain, but it’s probably no small thing that he chose a poem to carry the clues.

    Poems have meaning. They create images and tell stories. But I think a lot of us read the poem like computers might, and there’s probably a better way to approach a poem. What do you think?

        • Maybe you should ask Tesuque? Or even better Chip the dwarf dachshund (900g, 3 inches tall)

          • It’s not their size that makes me suspicious. Little known history behind Chihuahuas is that the first one was discovered in 1947, a little south of Santa Fe.

          • Obviously I mean that they look like little aliens from Roswell, in case that wasn’t obvious 🙂

    • I find this very interesting but I’m somewhat of a geek and my proof is I knew what a turing test was prior to reading this. If a computer can write a poem could they understand one? Hmmm, I might be getting an idea….

    • I heard that topic on the radio today and they were saying the difference between the computer written poem and the human written one is that the computer can write with the rhymes and all but it cannot tell a story.

    • @Sweetpea McGee – I sense that quickly down is very important as well. I am just not sure of the translation in action. What are your thoughts on why it is important and what it means?

          • There is an obscure definition of quickly that when used, will tell you WHERE not HOW. It took me close to two months to dig up this definition. When I did, QUICKLY became my keyword – it is that important.

            Good luck with your search and STAY SAFE


          • Maybe the quickly relates to the archaic definition that means to look to the center and heart of things?

          • JD –

            I happen to agree with you…..all except using it as a “KEY” word. My key word is different. Remember the typewritter…

            I do believe this is an important part of the solve. So glad your not in my spot –

            Happy Hunting !

          • Twingem;

            That is a nice definition, but not the one I used. Nice research though.

            Good luck and STAY SAFE


        • Inthechaseto;

          KEY word defined after solve completed. Was critical at the time because of WHERE it made me look.

          KEY – typewriter – I will have to think about that a bit.

          Good luck and STAY SAFE


          • OK let me stop flutzin around here…….

            Agree it’s at the end – at the end of my solve – I looked quickly down and saw the palindrome……….

          • @inthechaseto – palindrome?

            I found one of those with what I call the Good Housekeeping can opener in a sign above the door at the Black Forest Log School. I just figured it was referenced by what Ora Mae was smoking.


            You have a palindrome in your blaze?

          • inthechaseto;

            You say, “Agree it’s at the end – at the end of my solve – I looked quickly down and saw the palindrome……….” …The end of your solve, and yet you still have two and 1/2 stanzas left?

            Hope you are not missing something important.

            Good luck, and STAY SAFE


          • You said, “I looked quickly down and saw the palindrome………”

            “Madam in Eden, I’m Adam”

            What palindrome are you speaking of?


          • JD –

            The palindrome I found is not made up of words – it’s numbers at the end. It was totally amazing as to how he did that. Many things along the way will get you there. I could be wrong OR I could be right.

  42. A long time ago, I read comments from folks referencing Ferris Bueller. Can’t find comments now. Anyone know what the context of Ferris was to the chase? Other then FF being in hot water with Miss Ford like Ferris in the movie?

  43. Oziboy, I can’t answer your question about Tylenol and knowledge. I will say that IMO you must distill some fennian language like fine gin.

  44. E.C.Waters… No, No, bad dog! You’re spilling the good stuff. I agree with Yiddish clew, and further think he means English knoll. Also believe HOD could be a ref to Hebrew.

  45. Hello Searchers- 15 time botg’er, first time writer. Question for you guys…Did Mr Fenn ever say ‘If a searcher were within 12 feet of the tc, he could not imagine them not seeing it’? Thanking you in advance for your answers/comments.

  46. Hi Dys,
    Bringing this up several layers because the thread is buried a bit deep for people to easily reply. Let me start with a longevity point. You wrote:

    “Everyone keeps talking about preservation for hundreds or even thousands of years. Correct me if I am wrong but I could only find quotes regarding the poem being meant to stand the test of time.”

    Now that we’re in the information age, the poem will last as long as humans do. Fenn is not talking about the poem’s survival. I’m sure many folks here can dig up unambiguous quotes from Fenn discussing the ~chest’s~ vulnerability to the elements, not the poem’s.

    Moving on to the preservation of Indulgence itself: “The chest is important to us from our perspective but it is just a pittance to him.”

    I don’t disagree, but he wanted a vessel worthy of its intended contents. Let’s face it: there is a basic allure to finding that ancient chest, opening it for the first time since Forrest closed it, and seeing all the bright baubles within. From what Forrest has said and written, I surmise that he would delight in knowing that experience was awaiting someone. I think you’d agree that he’d prefer that the valuables within the chest (especially the gold nuggets) weren’t discovered independently due to inadequate planning on his part.

    But your basic argument seems to be that fire is a more destructive force than water, and you believe he would rather risk slow degradation due to a known water threat vs. potentially catastrophic damage due to an inevitable fire threat, however distant in the future. But on that note, if I was looking to maximize the chest’s survival odds, I would either bury it, cover it with rocks, or leave it at an altitude above the treeline. (Of course that last option isn’t very good because there isn’t a lot of interesting fauna to look at above the treeline.)

    • “Everyone keeps talking about preservation for hundreds or even thousands of years. Correct me if I am wrong but I could only find quotes regarding the poem being meant to stand the test of time.”

      I assume this comment was from Dys… what does this quote from fenn mean to you?
      “It will be there for as long as time has to come, or until you find it” I see fenn referring to it, as the chest. So if the other quote you reference seem to imply the poem should stand the test of time, why wouldn’t the chest?
      Fenn also stated [ I don’t have the exact wording to quote it, but ]
      **I hid the chest so it would be difficult but not impossible to find**

      It seems to imply that fenn thought of a place that would keep the chest, intact, safe, untouched as best as possible. Now, while he can’t control the elements, he could have known this spot would help preserve it. Does this help us to understand that there may have been a thought process involving the protection of not only the contents of the unlocked chest, The glass jar, fabrics, but a 1150 AD chest with a wood lining, valued @ approx. 20,000 bucks?

      If there was no thought to the protection of the chest… he could have placed everything in a sealed water tight plastic container.

  47. North American Aviation Inc.
    -Part Name
    -Seat Assembly
    Part No. Model
    243-53009-21 F100F
    Order No. Serial No.
    AF 33 (600) 31863 380 143
    Inspect. Date
    (Stamp) 9-20-57
    IF 100-7888 (Blank)
    1018 (Blank)
    (Blank) (Blank)
    Property of U.S. Government

        • Hello picassobull. Thank you for posting this link.

          Mr. Fenn, I hope you were able to find and make contact with the family.

      • From – Tue Oct 06 10:37:31 1998
        From: Forrest Fenn

        I was a close friend of John Overlocks at Tuy Hoa in 1968. We discussed whether or not he should volunteer for duty as a Misty FAC and transfer to Phu Cat. He was a very corageous and patriotic person and he wanted to do it. He knew how dangerous it was. He was shot down in August of 1968 and was declared MIA for a few years then KIA. I would like to be put in touch with members of his family if possible. Can you help me?

        Major Forrest Fenn

    • Hi PicassoBull. You’ve surfaced some interesting intel. Abstractions may equal/lead to aberrations? NIce.

    • Hello picassobull. Thank you for the link. I greatly appreciate it. It would seem to be a plausible place to look. DPT mentioned earlier about his/her research connections with Mr. Fenn possibly feeling like he was a scapegoat.

  48. Hmmm…think I found another spot where I need to shoot some photos…hope the weather cooperates. Safe searching, everyone!
    “Have flashlight, will travel”

  49. Possible dream fodder to those who take this chase to their beds at night;

    …the concepts of indulgence and locating clovis culture burial or ceremonial artifacts are not incongruous for certain people.

    Google Earth says they will have higher resolution pics for many areas soon. Google Earth can be used to view a vertical wall from the side. Shadows can be confirmed or ruled out by changing image dates or time of day in Google Earth.

    IMO I believe Forrest said that the TC is not visible from Google Earth because the current resolution isn’t high enough.

    There is a large reservoir of water found deep under North America recently which is said to rival the volume of the major oceans at a depth of over a hundred miles from the surface.

    IMO there appears to be a string of hot springs which run fairly North to South on a straight line through the four states in question in TTOC. The fault declination is approx 11 oclock. YNP is not in this line.

    • mensan –

      I found your post to be most interesting. You hit two very important items that are involved in my solve. The shadows and the 11 o’clock fault line. As time marches on and things change – I would think we should use the google earth from the date we think he hid the TC – or possible before that as it was available to FF in the manner. It’s my opinion that the shadows can be found on GE.

      • Hi inthechaseto – You sure seem to have it all figured out. Have you been out to look yet, or when do you plan to go?

    • One thing I found on Google earth was a huge white peace sign in a key location a few years ago. You had to zoom in but it was there. I hiked up there and some one had messed it up, you could see the white quartz rocks scattered around. It wasn’t in a place that Cruella de Ville would have been chauffeured to in her white van, and the reason that I have all those cute black and white Dalmatian puppies and the evil Cruella looking down on my mind is because I have a black dog that must have known that today was National hug day. Yep, no lie, last night she decided to hug a skunk and I think that skunk might have taken advantage of her because she got it good. Some days just seem like everything is in black and white and this one comes with a skunky smell attached.

      • strawshadow…sounds like you might need a “hug”? I have an amazing black rescue dog and she does sense emotions.

        No skunks please! Sometimes, when I feel lost making my day’s or even plans for 2 weeks from now…like in Alice’s Wonderland (I’m late, I’m late…) it helps me to just write myself a letter.

        I enjoy your poetry posts…Are you penning a poem about Cruella or a skunk??? Enjoy your day and hugs from your dog.

    • Mensan_fennsan,

      I don’t think “because the current resolution isn’t high enough” is accurate to what fenn said, I believe it was GE can’t get close enough. [ imo, that seems to imply distance and not so much picture quality]. Not that that is matters to me, you just may want to review the comment is all I’m saying.

      You said “There is a large reservoir of water found deep under North America recently which is said to rival the volume of the major oceans at a depth of over a hundred miles from the surface.”

      Do you have when this was discovered? [you said recently] I’m going to look it up because it something I had not heard about… so I’m just curious to know more about it. Not sure if it has anything to do with clues, but it still is something interesting to know about. However if you might think it refer to a clue… knowing when would be an important piece of information in regards to when the poem was written, or at least when we think the poem was written.

  50. Thanks Ellen, no hugs for me or my Gyrl today….she just received her hydrogen peroxide, baking soda bath. I think I’ll pass on the Cruella poem, my heart or nose just isn’t into it, lol. What a way to start the day though, some things you just can’t plan on.

    Rescue dogs are the best, they know they were rescued:)

  51. Inthechasetoo…IMO WWWH is at the intersection of two straight lines of known hotsprings which span the USA from East to West and from North to South (nearly). I noticed this after I already had a clue to WWWH from more than 20 years ago. I think the finder will be gaining altitude as they approach the TC and see the blaze with the TC below it. It won’t be in a cave and a fire will not likely affect it unless there is an unusual event like a fire tornado touching down away from the woods.

    • mensen –

      It’s pretty amazing that after all this time – you come along with a theory I have not heard before. At this time I don’t know about a line of hot springs going in any direction – but I will check that out.

      I also think you will be gaining altitude upon approaching the TC.

      I also agree it is not in a cave. It’s my opinion the TC is in a clearing surrounded by trees. I also think it is buried. I even studied how far down it would have to be buried to not be scorched by fire. Trust me, I am at the digging stage. I’m sure we both know – Forrest said it could be scorched by fire. This statement by him – has me somewhat baffled.

          • You are welcome…it seems to me that there is a single natural phenomenon which ties many TTOC topics together. Those topics are red ocher, multiple hot springs on vector, clovis flint caches, ferrous iron deposits, PGM and gem deposits, canyons, world class fish, oasi, confluences, ancient overwinter sites, fertile woodland valleys, and underappreciated radial fault focii which seem to seek each other. That phenomenon is iron meteor strike. Did you know Shoemaker Levy 9 is now considered to have been a meteor and not a comet due to it’s emission spectra at impact? Curious that the new stripe was parallel with existing stripes there. Also red ocher (iron oxide or rust) is found worldwide at ancient burial sites. Geologists currently say there is no direct link between old impacts and earthquakes and deny the rim of fire is impact related. There is a recent study showing deep relict Earth features which cast significant doubt on the subduction theory of plate tectonics and supports the old opposing symmetric growth theory. Also a study of YNP says that the supervolcano was triggered by external event. Search for pea-sized carbonados in red dirt while you are on the chase. They are on surface worldwide but not in kimberlitic shafts.

          • Mensan_fennsan asked, “Did you know Shoemaker Levy 9 is now considered to have been a meteor and not a comet due to it’s emission spectra at impact?”

            Not sure what you mean by “now considered”? There is no doubt that S-L 9 was a comet (and a string of comet fragments at the time of their impacts on Jupiter). The label “meteor” has nothing to do with the composition of the object producing it. So the cometary fragments of S-L 9 did indeed briefly become meteors before “impact” on Jupiter. (Since Jupiter’s surface isn’t solid, “impact” takes on a different meaning there.)

      • inthechase,
        Your reference to “scorched by fire” I believe relates to a reporter who is said to be quoting fenn in an article posted in the Daily Beast… Tony something, I believe. Personally this guys track record for accuracy… imo… is not that accurate. Just saying.

        Here’s a Q&A that may help… i’m sure you have seen it before, but no harm in reviewing…

        “Mr Fenn, in relation to the final resting place of the chest, which of the 4 natural elements (Earth, Wind, Water, Fire) would mostly compromise it resting?” ~ James
        “I know what the question is. I don’t think earth can hurt it, under the right conditions wind might affect it, it’s probably already wet, and look at what fire did to the twin towers. Nature makes her own rules, James, so I try to not be absolute when talking about her.”

        Fenn later, in a comment, stated that tornadoes are rare in the mountains but they do happen [ paraphrasing ].

        I think fenn may be referring to extreme conditions and the thought process of hiding the chest. Some [ searchers ] say they think fire would destroy the chest and contents… but if you look at the melting points of gold, bronze, or extreme heat to precious stones etc. those degrees are much higher than the 451 degrees that wood [ forest fires ] burns at. That’s not to say a forest fire can produce a high degree of heat, but one example is, the melting point of gold is over 1900 degrees F.

        The glass jar and autobiography may be another matter though.

        • Seeker –

          Thank you so much for finding that the original idea of being scorched came from Tony D. Tony has come along way from those days – as he is now reporting live, on camera, for MSNBC. Your right – many things in that original article – were taken as fact – and shouldn’t have been.

          I’ve always thought it was cute that Forrest posted here sometimes as Forest Fire. Perhaps there is another reason……..what do you think?

          • Inthechase,

            I have no idea why fenn chose to have a screen name ‘forest fire’ I chose “Seeker” as it relates to “Cold”; as a Seeker to mean… I’m not close at all.

            Maybe it was a nickname others refer to him as, at one time.

            I do think fenn enjoys having fun with this challenge… maybe that is all it is. Pick a name that some may think it a clue. I mean fenn’s dachshund has been used to solve the poem, why not a forest fire.

            But lets get back to that Q&A for a moment… Does this answer seem to say the chest is submerged? IMO, Probably wet doesn’t say “in” water. Can wind effect the chest? also ‘might’ say that it’s above ground or not buried as buried means in it conventional manner. Can fire affect it? Well, this wasn’t really answered but I can see that fire could, maybe, might, touch it. Which in my mind is giving me the understanding that the chest is not underwater or buried deep in the ground where tools are needed to dig with.

            IMO… that helps me when I think of how a solution comes together… but that just me.

          • Hello inthechaseto. Seeker may be correct in that Mr. Fenn could have been having fun. Perhaps he’s Hot Stuff! 😉 Fire may be something to consider…”Ready, Aim, Fire!” Fire as to shoot or chute? Talk about all the possibilities this gentleman can make us think. 🙂

          • Forest Fires can be devastating for sure.

            That’s interesting about the fires in Yellowstone in 1988…….I remember driving thru there 20 yrs later and it still looks as if a bomb went off in certain places.

            A total of 248 fires started in greater Yellowstone in 1988; 50 of those were in Yellowstone National Park. Despite widespread misconceptions that all fires were initially allowed to burn, only 31 of the total were; 28 of these began inside the park. In the end, 7 major fires were responsible for more than 95% of the burned acreage. Five of those fires were ignited outside the park, and 3 of them were human-caused fires that firefighters attempted to control from the beginning. More than 25,000 firefighters, as many as 9000 at one time, attacked Yellowstone fires in 1988, at a total cost of about $120 million. Thankfully, the fires killed no park visitors and no nearby residents. Outside the park, two firefighters were killed, one by a falling tree and one while piloting a plane transporting other personnel.

            I also think flooding plays a role.

          • Hello inthechaseto – You may be interested in this, from my email archive:

            On Aug 20, 2012, at 5:59 PM, Forrest Fenn wrote:
            I”m thinking of changing my name to either Forrest Fire or Sherwood Forrest. I think I ruled out Enchanted Forrest. What do you think I should do?

            The CNN/Tony Dokoupil piece had just aired. Some did not think it was very flattering. Maybe that’s why ff ruled out Enchanted Forrest.

        • Hi Seeker — just an FYI that forest fires can easily reach temperatures of 800 C (over 1450 F) — still below the melting point of bronze (a bit over 900 C) and gold (~1060 C), but well above the melting point of many glasses. So the chest and nearly all of its contents would survive, but the autobiography would likely be toast.

          • Zap, we agree with the metals.
            I have wondered about the glass jar though. Not that it means anything about how to solve the poem, but how protected the autobiography is from heat.
            fenn has explained how he attempted to keep it safe from moisture, but I don’t recall, was it ever said what the bio was printed on?

            I image paper or something of the same material… then again… maybe he stamped it into sheets of copper? Then again why worry about moister if that was the case. It’s always fun to think of how he prepare it all…

  52. Forrest Fire. I like your answer Pdenver. It puts you in the area. I also think it’s his favorite place, where the Blaze is. FF also could be Forest Fire.

    Now here is some secret information if anyone is listening. Forrest said some searchers are in tight FOCUS. Meaning they are locked into the correct clues. Also he said FOCUS for a reason. He could of used any word, but he used Focus for a reason.

    Lower case f is a symbol for focus. Look up definition of focus!!!! Also pay special attention to the root word of focus , it means Hearth or Fire!! It is the epicenter of an earthquake. An exact point or needle area where the crust of the earth crashes against another plate in tectonics and releases a nuclear bomb reaction . It is called a Focus!!!

    Let’s get us all in tight focus now:-)

    • Hello DPT. I like the idea of “focus” being an epicenter of an earthquake and I believe I know of a specific one that may have meaning to him. There are many possible areas if one looks on a map. Focus also means center or a hint “middle” for which we know he’s hinted towards. I’ll have to consider this while loading up my camper for Yellowstone. 🙂

        • Hello Jake Faulker. I have my feet in three different states. I know it may seem impossible, but it depends on how one reads the poem. I’ve found the scrapbooks about Yellowstone interesting.

          • Not impossible at all.
            When I first started I had partial solves in all 4 states but only have so much time off & money.
            Now I’ve just been suspended by the CEO of our company & may have more time.

            I think your heading in the right area, either way you can’t go wrong in any state when it comes to beauty.

            I think it all boils down to what places where special to him where there are hints of places sprinkled in the books & scrapbooks which is why I chose the the Greater Yellowstone Area.

        • Jake –

          The word “Yellowstone” is in my solve and so is the word “firewood”. It wouldn’t surprise me at all if he starts posting here as firewood. Oh probably not – if he knows I mentioned it.

          Look to Rockwell – do you know how many times he had fires?

          • Now that you mentioned it inthechaseto, he probably won’t use any other name except for his real one.

            Rockwell the artist? No, had no idea about his fires.

          • It gets more interesting when you know how many imitations of Rockwell’s paintings are in TTOTC. Years ago many of us over at Mike’s found the names of them all – that was a feat.

          • You have me at a loss inthechaseto,
            I do not know which drawings you are talking about in TTOTC.
            I must have missed something.
            Maybe you can point one out or when here it was talked about.
            Unless you mean rock well?

          • Like the reverse of Mrs Catherine O’Leary milking daisy. IMO, that’s the reverse image clue.

          • Thanks eaglesbound & inthechaseto,
            I see the similarities of the illustrations relating to Rockwell in TTOTC.
            Pretty interesting stuff, but how do you interpret this?
            I will stick with rock well as in Thor’s Well.

          • Well Jake

            I don’t know how to interpret it – all of the drawings were not part of my solve – only one thing out of all that.

            So I wouldn’t spend alot of time on it – look to Norman Rockwell…………..Yes, the painter. Did you know he did over 3,000 paintings.

            Perhaps you should take the rock well theory and rethink it.

          • I am glad you guy’s were talking about Rockwell today.
            You gave me new insight to the book & possibly reassurance what I have thought for months.
            Rock on!

          • I agree eaglesbound,
            All the drawings do mean something.
            But, do they all mean something as to say hints to help with the clues in the poem?
            Perhaps some do & some don’t, I haven’t been able to tell which ones help or hurt yet, then again, I will probably never know.

          • Take the drawings or pics, put them in a paint program(zoner is good and free for this), copy the pic, flip it horizontally, paste pic, turn layer down to 50%. The map of tftw would be a good start. Zoner allows you to move the layer on an x,y axis. Mirroring the pics like this may be in good fun, or may help.

    • DPT –

      I like your post ! Since we are all getting in tight focus – It’s my opinion that the start of the actual spot is the fire departments staging area. What better place to hide a treasure – when you know it’s going to be protected….. Oh Boy………..

      • Inthechaseto, you helped do the work uncovering the Rockwell drawings in the book? I must thank you. I have seen the work. You all did an amazing job uncovering all of that. The drawings are very important. Hopefully all can HEAR me!

        • DPT –

          Your welcome…..quite frankly I don’t know how important the drawing are……..Oh God maybe I have more work to do. I do know that each person in a drawing has a very real name.

          Ya know – If I don’t find the TC – I hope someone else here – finds it. I said I was going to start giving out clues and I am. It’s nice to know it’s appreciated.

          • “I said I was going to start giving out clues and I am. It’s nice to know it’s appreciated.”

            I’d appreciate it if ya can give them in order, so I can keep count of them?!

            I know… don’t quit your day job Seeker.

    • DPT,
      If we’re going to have some fun with {f} Focus… fenn stated in tight focus of a word…”

      But, if we think of focus as in point [ focus point ] Earthquake works well when you add the word ‘tight’ as well. And your description of tectonic works in favor to both words and how both words work in tandem.

      Stanza 3, no place for the meek seems a good reference to being in an earthquake or even the aftermath. The end is ever drawing nigh, could be the act of to boundary areas pulling or pushing again each other [ plates ]. There’ll be no paddle up your creek, as creek definition is a narrow passage [ imagination is needed here] and the line could mean a difficult situation to be in.

      But when you read that line, can we interpret it to say, In a bind? [ tectonic plates ]. or between a rock and a hard place?
      Could this line from the poem take out the guess work and give more confidence to what it might be implying… an earthquake.
      And if we take it a step further is the place within in the RM’s that refers to this, the continental divide.

      Now if we use logic and imagination… does put in below the hoB have a possible different meaning / interpretation? when thinking along these lines of thought.

      Can the Q&A that refers to were the clues around when you were a kid… give thought to the answer…
      “The clues did not exist when I was a kid but most of the places the clues refer to did. I think they might still exist in 100 years but the geography probably will change before we reach the next millennia. The Rocky mountains are still moving and associated physical changes will surely have an impact. If you are in the year 3,009 it will be more difficult for you to find the treasure.f ”

      So I’m back to my old questions… are the “places” some of the clues refer to needed to be traveled or simply understood?
      Is there a need to have 9 places for 9 clues? or can the clues be “contiguous” in the manner of touching and neighboring, as a whole?

      Good discussion topic DPT….

      • Seeker –

        It is my opinion in answer to your question – can it be found without going to all the places – yes indeedy. In fact, the first place is toast. How do like them apples?

        • Inthechaseto, do you like The burnt hole as WWH or are you referring to a different 1st clue?

        • Seeker –

          It doesn’t work like counting clues – until the very end. If you continue to do that – I can almost guarantee you will never find it. You simply must think…….. just like FF said.

          If you were going to create a treasure hunt – how would you do it. The main reason the TC has not been found is everyone is concentrating in the wrong place. That wrong place is nine clues in the poem.

          Far be it for me to tell you what to do – it’s just pains me to see you work so hard and continue with the same ol same ol………over and over……it’s not the way it works.


          • Inthechaseto, The Burnt hole with a capital B is what the area of Hebgen lake used to be called before they dammed the Madison River and made Hebgen Lake. Osborne Russel talks about it in Journal of a trapper. I believe that is why Forrest mentions that book in TTOTC. That and how to look at the geography of the area. The trappers kept great journals, especially Osborne Russel.

            Burnt is an interesting word. Especially when put together with Burnt umber.

          • Here’s my opinion on what Forrest mentions – if he mentions it – forget it. He will never talk about the real place – or even hint to it – count on it.

          • Inthechaseto, I understand what your saying and agree with you about Forrest I just couldn’t see another connection with your toast reference.

          • I don’t count clues… at least not as 9 places, words, lines etc. I go with 9 pieces of information, that is, whatever the sentences imply.
            Like I have asked in the past, how many clues give an answer?
            Think the intro to the poem was cleverly written to imply… 9 clues to be all 9 sentence or the poem as a whole.

            Honestly if you take what e said about every word was deliberate, and not all words will get you to the chest, but it would be unwise to discount them [ I should look them up just to refresh my self ] anyways, what those comment mean to me is the whole poem is just important as any lines or words.

            But the above is only opinions… I wish I had facts to back them up.

          • Hi Seeker — you wrote, “I don’t count clues… at least not as 9 places, words, lines etc. I go with 9 pieces of information, that is, whatever the sentences imply.” I believe that is a good strategy, because I don’t think all the clues are of the same “flavor”. Most people seem to agree that “clues” fall into two categories: places (waypoints) or directions. But the poem can reveal places in a host of different ways, and not just descriptively. Based on the searchers questioned by Wisconsin Mike, most do not believe WWWH is the first clue, and in this instance I believe the majority opinion is correct.

      • Seeker –

        Out of all here – I love the way you contribute – and many times you are right on………… I’m sorry if I was hard on you – it’s just because I like you.

    • SL, thanks. Now you see what I meant by telling you the bullseye in the picture was waves. Shock waves or epicenter. And as I told you then, a wave can be water high:-)

      And in war for me Forrest says he stood by a pile of rocks waving his arms like a windmill.

      An arm of a windmill is a whip.

      Forrest portrays himself as a Billy goat. Which is also a whipping boy or scapegoat. Why do they call it a scapegoat? Because they always take the blame. It’s their FAULT:-)

  53. Thanks everyone, as I have said before I am missing something, but I know I have some great information. So if I can’t find it I want to help others.

    Look at the picture on the home page of this site. Forrest is standing with a bear skin on the wall. It has an epicenter target on it. That circle bullseye is a universal symbol for epicenter. The dotted line is a border line and bear means to carry heavy loads. Bear also means to give birth or bear children like a mother. Mudd is the mother of vinegar. The last bronze bell inTTOTC is a woman. Bear also means to be born, your home.

    All interesting information I know, just have not been able to put it all together. Hopefully this will help others or others can help me.

    I wonder if Dal was instructed by Forrest to put that picture on the home page.
    Also the epicenter of the Hebgenlake earthquake is up grayling canyon on the border. Where Forrest told Dal. Paraphrase- I hope you guys don’t find the chest up grayling canyon. Hmmmm?? Interesting.

  54. The following is my opinion, and opinion only. I really think that most searchers underestimate the value of the first stanza. The poem needs a base to stand on, and most every one is cutting it’s legs. Without this information WWWH ceases to be. It just does not exist on its own. WWWH is a product of the first stanza, not the other way around. WWWH will never, in a million years, be understood if the first stanza is taken for granted. RC.

    • RC,

      Question… is the first stanza [ as a whole or a clue ] a place one can travel to and see it all from that point… or… is it simply a need to know of?

      • @ Seeker The first stanza is pure information one will need later in the search. Imo of course.RC.

        • agree with you RC, 100%. First stanza is the building block of the poem. Understanding the information in it is essential.
          The architecture of the poem can be gained in the first stanza.IMO.

          • I am not sure that I agree Charlie. I think that you have to study the entire poem before you learn the architecture of the poem. I have expounded more than once on the circular architecture of the poem, so I will not go into much detail tonight. In brief:

            The last lines of the poem feed back into the first stanza forming a circle. So in a way “In the wood” = “in there” which = wwwh etc. equals or “feeds into”.

            Just my unproven theory.

            Good luck searchers and STAY SAFE


          • Sorry JD, don’t agree. The circle is the rainbow. Figuring out the first stanza does open up the poem and establishes a possible way to read the poem.

          • Charlie, JD, this is the Answer I think you two refer to…

            “Ron, your question sounds like a travelogue, but I’ll answer it. No, I don’t want to be that bold. But I will say that I walked less than a few miles if that will help. I just looked “few” up and one definition is “scant.” Why do I sound like I’m talking in circles? f”

            Add together with other comments about the first two clues [ too many to past again] Is the mine in stanza 4 hinting to all the clues being very close together? or even seen from one vantage point, and not needed to be traveled?

            Thinking Tarry to mean a stay or linger. scant being small… hinting a small area of the clues and not exactly what they seem to be to us? The only real traveling involved is from were one gains access to walk to the chest location.

    • Good observation, RC.
      I believe this is nearly a verbatim quote by FF from the Moby Dickens vid (but don’t quote me…it’s close enough for my purposes here):
      “I felt like an architect when I drew that poem.”

      “Drew that poem”? That’s an interesting turn of phrase, to say the least.

      This has stuck in my craw for a long time. I happen to be an architect, so I found that allusion notable.

      Your words: “The poem needs a base to stand on, and most every one is cutting it’s legs. Without this information WWWH ceases to be. It just does not exist on its own. WWWH is a product of the first stanza, not the other way around.”

      Yes, I totally agree. The 1st stanza is the plinth, upon which the structure (of the poem and it’s solve) rests. But below the plinth, is the foundation….understanding the man. IMHO, that is.

    • Hi RC — I’m in violent agreement with you (see my post above about WWWH not being the first clue). Stanza 1 contains my first clue, as I’m sure it does for a lot of searchers. But it’s clear that people are finding many potential clues/solutions within that first stanza, and most of them must be wrong because these tend to be mutually exclusive. (As a simple example, consider a searcher #1 who thinks “New and Old” is a clue that the starting point is in New Mexico, while searcher #2 thinks “Treasures” means to start in the Treasure State, Montana. They can’t both be right.)

    • Hi RC, I couldn’t agree with you more!

      That is why I can’t find the darn thing. I have soooo much evidence on the others, but I am at the wrong WWH or first clue. I am missing that first step.

      I am willing to share the rest of my information with everyone because I believe someone may have THE WWH and be able to get to the end with some of the information I have held secret. I know you have to have the correct WWH to get the end. I have very compelling evidence that the end is a common feature in the Rockies.

      That’s why without the correct WWH you can’t get the chest.

      • “I am willing to share the rest of my information with everyone… I have very compelling evidence that the end is a common feature in the Rockies. That’s why without the correct WWH you can’t get the chest.”

        I’m all ears… But before you do. Have you really considered what stanza one might be saying? Does it have to be a just a place?

        • Hi Seeker, sorry but what do you mean by , does it have to be just a place?

          I believe the blaze is a place on Earth.

          • LOL no, I meant about stanza one, what everyone is chatting about… Your WWWH might be right or wrong. I was saying, Does stanza one Just have to be a place. You may begin at WWWH but are you sure about where to begin?

            Fenn has made a couple of comment with… know where to start and start at the beginning and need to nail down the first clue. I think they are different to Begin it where warm waters halt.

            Think of it this way. What is the very first thing fenn tells us all? “keep my secret where” and what are we looking for? where he secreted the chest. So what is the “first” stanza saying?

            It’s elementary… read it with a poetic mind set.

          • Hi Seeker: to answer your question about the first stanza, my clue there is a general location — but more specific than simply narrowing it down to a state. But at least it is a manageable starting point. I think it’s a pretty difficult clue to find (it took me over a year) if you take a straight-forward approach to reading the poem and interpreting meanings, but seems kind of “ahha” once you do find it. I’d say what it is, but I get the feeling it’s a pretty big filter since not a soul here has mentioned it (but I really wouldn’t expect them to). All I can do is infer that people searching in at least 2 of the 4 states have not found my clue in stanza 1. That all said, could I be deluding myself? Sure. It could just be a weird coincidence. But it’s a real place. And I know some people have been searching there. And at least some of those people got there without finding this clue.

    • Totally agree.
      It stands to reason that with the potential of thousands of WWWH locations spread out over four states that a starting point is needed.

    • Pretty – pretty. “my” stream looked a lot like this one five weeks ago. Hope that it subsides in another three weeks.

      Only time will tell.


      • Yes JD,
        If it hasn’t subsided then, don’t give up on your spot & dreams.
        Seeing I thought about WW’s, statements & believing Forrest is nudging someone towards finding it in public, I hope it’s you.
        You never know until you go there 😉

  55. Hello Jake Faulker. Great video and beautiful area. If it’s to cross the creek, I’m not sure if anyone should at that spot. If anyone slipped, they might get caught in the fallen tree. I nearly drowned in just that way while tubing many years ago. Was this video taken while the runoff was at or near peak?

    • Thank you pdenver,
      I am not sure either. I am glad you made it out alive, that is a very dangerous position to be in. The runoff was about 1 ft below peak which as we know too high.
      You are a lucky girl to get out of that predicament considering the pressures involved.
      Trees across creeks or rivers are a danger when you underestimate there pinning power when you end up in the flow.

      You heavy loaded up & ready for the big Yellow?

      • Hello Jake Faulker. Have the majority of the stuff packed. Planning meals now. Heading north on the 16th. It’s been a couple years since I’ve been there and getting really excited. 🙂

        • And you’re welcome. I was an extremely lucky girl. I tried to step out of the tube because of seeing the fallen tree and when I stepped out, my foot gave way to the slippery rocks and power of the creek. Landed flat on my back, facing up I could see the water running over my face. I tried to grab the tree to lift myself up, but the force of the water kept me under. It wasn’t my time to leave this Earth and was able to grasp for air and found my way up from the watery grave.

          • Very scary pdenver,
            I can’t imagine what you went through when it happened.
            The good thing is it wasn’t your time & you learned from it.
            The bad is it might happen again but you will be better prepared.
            I wish you & yours a safe journey & very happy & exciting trip.
            Please bring back anything you can to share.

  56. The following is my opinion and opinion only. It is my belief that the clues in the poem, and the physical clues (boots on the ground) are contiguous, and consecutive. As I have said the first stanza in the poem is the first clue, but WWWH is the first physical clue once you are there in that place. What we keep missing is WWWH is. It is here where searchers are missing the clue because we do not understand what it means. We go there thinking we got it, but once we get there we go, ” what now?” so we just leave. It is my belief that searchers have been within 5 feet to the treasure chest but they did not know it. Like always, it is my opinion and opinion only. RC.

    • RC-
      Didn’t ff say
      “I have not said that a searcher was closer than 12’ from the treasure. It is not likely that anyone would get that close and not find it.” ff (From scrapbook #78)

  57. Good Evening Searchers- Can anyone tell me if Forrest ever said that the chest could get scorched in a fire?
    Thanking you in advance…Colorado Smitty

  58. Random thought, (but I know everyone wants my opinion)…

    I went to Home Depot and carried a 45 lb sack of concrete as far as I could down the isle. I’m 68 and in decent shape. I went about 30 feet. It’s bugged me since then how far FF could take it from his car.

    My answer was a hiking cart. But even then, how far could he pull it over terrain? Especially if any of it was uphill. Even if it took up to 4 hours. After a couple minutes–that load gets awfully heavy.

    Try it sometime.

    IMO the TC is less than 100 yards from the car.

      • @ whut…Better yet, put it in a backpack. carrying weight any distance with just your arms will be harder than distributing the weight to the legs. Now take 1/2 that load and see or feel the difference.
        Oh! wait did fenn say something about an 80 year old man, a canyon, two trips up and back with a heavy backpack. I know I heard it some where.

        Inthechase, I have two 80lb Golden retrievers… I wish all I had to do was lug a 20lb bag of dog food…lol. The lady at the checkout asked would I like a buggy. I said no thanks, what I need is smaller dogs.

    • This has been weighing on my mind as well, pun intended. I think he might’ve used a backpack. Seems the easiest, and least suspicious even if he were to run into anyone out in the mountains. All this is my opinion, of course.

  59. I thought in an interview, FF said he made two trips–one to examine the location, then returned to carry the TC to the location.

    • He very plainly stated that one trip he took the chest and the other he took the contents. The total weight was too much to make just one trip. Not sure exactly when he said this, but I believe it was when he was speaking in an interview. Look up the old interviews and you can find the exact word. Both were done in one afternoon from his car to the hiding place. He has never given any hint how long it took to get to where he parked the vehicle that I can find. IMO of course. Any one- correct me if I’m wrong.

  60. Now this is very interesting & straightforward at first glance IMO.
    Jenny’s Weekly Words 7-1-16

    Dear Mz. Mary,
    The solve is difficult for many searchers because their minds think the clues are tougher to decrypt than they really are.

    Some say they are trying to think outside the box, as if the solution lies somewhere out there.

    Until now I have resisted telling them to get back in the box where their thoughts are comfortable and flow more easily.

    The blueprint is challenging so the treasure may be located by the one who can best adjust. To illustrate my point go to YouTube – Smarter Every Day. f


    • Wahoo – Yes, Yes, Yes,

      This goes right along with what I have been trying to say. There is a blue print – but you have to draw it. It is not easy – it tricks your brain.

      As long as you are simply thinking inside the box – you will not find the real Treasure Chest. Inside or Outside…..back or forwards…….If you are counting clues – STOP DOING IT – it is a total waste of time. If you don’t believe me – have a nice vacation.

      When I did my solve – I would get so frustrated…I would say to myself – I know what he is doing here – and I am going to beat it. Any time my brain was going in the wrong direction – I would remember an old accountant trick. I would get up and walk away from what I was working on…..take a walk around the block..change the gestalt. Then I invented other ways to beat it…….I came in from another direction.

      When Forrest said – think – that was my biggest clue. I knew then he didn’t do this in any ordinary way – as everyone had pretty much covered what they thought the nine clues were – and that wasn’t working for anyone – and they were probably smarter that I was.

      There are other’s who have tried to do what I think I accomplished and here’s the major component of all this – if you don’t start in the right place – nothing will work for you.

        • Hello Jake Faulker. And a much larger bottle of Extra Strength Tylenol. I personally use “Ibuprofenn.” 🙂

        • Jake, Don’t you think that is the exact opposite… need a bigger box.
          I get the feeling fenn is saying you have everything you need in the box supplied. No need to learn another language. No need to research the unknowns. No need to add more of anything.
          I see this as, use what is available and think how you can overcome the common obstacle… learn to adapt to the situation you face.

          • The box I’m referring to is the box labeled – straightforward thinkers only –
            There will be a lot of people in denial & have read some of there comments here & there already.
            I will not rethink everything now, just try to tweak a little if any.
            I think I was on the right path.
            I’m still a little overwhelmed by this bombshell.

            Did you hear that explosion?

          • Jake,
            Like anyone who is reasonable, I have suggested the word straightforwards threw some off kilter.
            The bike in the video is a good example, Just because we have seen or used a system, such a steering, doesn’t mean that this system we know of / originally adapt to it, is the only way.
            The bike still goes straightforwards, even thought we had to re-adapt / adjust our thinking.

      • @pdenver – I feel like I just got schooled. If I were to still be stuck, I might think Mz refers to the two letter country code for Mozambique, near Madagascar. But that’s the old way of thinking. I’m going to stop thinking about this now and get back to solving real world problems in my day job.

        • Hello E.C. Waters. When I started the chase, I took Mz for mean some kind of radio tower. Many roads we have traveled to figure out this beautiful poem. 🙂

      • It is also a plan. : ) I/we have a new plan to get to the spot. If I could leave today I would.

        • Hi EC. Blueprint = pilot? This one totally baffles me. As a logophile, I’m sure you ken the association….share?

          • @melanie – Google blueprint defintion. See synonyms. Expand definitions button as needed, and sometimes expand on “More” link.

          • Thank you EC. I have never heard that useage. Very interesting. It seems rather oblique to all other synonyms. Perhaps that’s useful…..does it translate well into Spanish? ‘-)

          • I’ll consider that a compliment. Thank you, Jake. I consider you one, as well…. and am envious of your chutzpah! Good luck, pal.

      • Hi pdenver. I am not familiar with this useage, per se. Exactly what do yo mean?

    • One aspect is to notice who was the biggest proponent of ‘thinking outside the box’. If you don’t know who, it might be good to adapt and find out and study their ways. Then, do as ff says.

        • LOL EC, I was trying to understand what Fun was trying to imply myself. Ya gotta like the ending though… “then, do as ff says”
          I sure would like to know, and I think 65,000 plus others as well, what exactly does “do as ff says” means? Haven’t we all been trying to do just that?
          Great input…

          • Hello fundamentaldesign. I hope others will understand what you are saying. I surely seem to be lost in the maze of codes.

          • I don’t know the story behind it, but I know what you’re saying now. I rarely go there to understand the discussions.

          • LOL!! Be careful, pd, be very careful. That is what started it all…..one little bite of the apple!!! 🙂

    • Hello Everyone. I just noticed something about this week’s Featured Question and Weekly Words. Mary asked, ‘I’m asking for a clue to the clues.’ I believe Mr. Fenn may have answered her. Look at his response. He separated each sentence. Interesting thought to ponder.

    • Sorry, I had not seen the previous posts…oops – I better start thinking – period – inside or outside the box.


  61. What an interesting post. Are we making the clues more difficult than they need to be? How can we make our thoughts flow more freely? Very interesting questions, for which I have no answers.

    Good luck to all, and STAY SAFE


    • JD –

      IMO – stop thinking about the clues – and get on with it……..you will find the clues along the way. Just when you think you are done – you are not – there will be more.

      • Inthechaseto;

        I am no longer looking for clues. I have completed my solve. I am just waiting for my waters to subside. I am “Tweaking” my final location from an area about 200′ X 20′ down to an area about 10′ X 10′ or so.

        Several times I have thought I was done, and yes, I found that I was not yet done. Tweak – Tweak- Tweak. I am SOOOOOO close now – I hope!

        Thanks for the advice though.

        Take care, and good luck and STAY SAFE


    • Hey JD,
      I don’t know how many times I have mentioned the word “flow” on this blog, but many. So if your thoughts flow about the poem, does the poem flow as well?

      • Yup – Yup….Like our streams, sometimes a torrent, sometimes they flow more easily. Let’s both hope for calm flowing waters in the near future. Both in the poem, and in reality

        Best of luck Jake – STAY SAFE


        • JD, I use the USGS website to see the discharge & height of the rivers in my area.
          Great tool I’ve been using since last year.
          Unfortunately I have ignored it this year & left me low & wet of the mark.
          Looks like the rivers will be lowest in Sept. but Mother Nature can always read what I type & tends to show me differently.

    • Hello JD. It is quite interesting, especially when he chose his words carefully for the poem. As I sit here and think about “blue prints,” I think of a “plan,” but with this plan, you need to have all the pieces in order to build, but to build you need the base and work your way up.” Should we be reading the poem from the bottom up? Or, would that be messing with his poem? We’re taught to read from left to right, top to bottom. Yet, if we gave the poem to a child, they would read it the same way because that’s how they were taught. I think I’m complicating things. When I began the chase, I didn’t have anything but the poem. I read the words with simplicity and my mind imagined what it saw and I went to the spot. I’ll be returning and we’ll see what happens.

      • PDenver ;

        You say, “Should we be reading the poem from the bottom up? ”

        I fully believe that the next to last sentence, “If you are brave and in the wood…” leads into the first line of the poem, “As I went alone in there and with my treasures bold,…” Once you define “the wood” you can substitute this definition for “in there”

        Let’s say that by solving the various clues, you come to believe that “brave and in the woods” = Carson National Forest (Kit Carson was brave and wood = forest) – You now insert this into stanza #1…As I went alone into Carson National Forest with my treasures bold…” (sic) – You now have a “global view” of where the treasure is. Maybe the next time through the poem you determine that a particular “Grove of Pines” is your “in the wood” – you again substitute and you have – “As I went alone into my grove of pines with my treasures bold…” (sic) – you are getting a more finite view of where the TC actually lies.

        Should we be reading the poem from the bottom? – No but in a circle sure helped me.

        Just a theory that I hope to prove later this month

        Good luck in your search PDenver – STAY SAFE


        • Hello JD. Thank you for sharing your inspirational thought. I greatly appreciate it. Mr. Fenn have suggested “circle/circles” in the past. Is there a beginning and end to a circle? Have you figured out “middle”?

          I wish you the best of luck in your search. If I’m not mistaken, you’ll be heading out the same day I return home. I’ll be leaving for vacation in two weeks and hope to return to my very first spot when I began this quest. Going to put BOTG to places I’ve never been, just to do it and make more beautiful memories in my Book of Life.

          • I wish you the very best. Let me (and all of us) know if you find it – save me a trip, although I would probably go just to be with my family members in one of the most beautiful spots ever.

            I will leave on the 22nd and hunt on the 23rd and, if needed, on the 24th.

            I honestly do believe that You, me, or some other searcher will find it this season.

            Good luck to all – STAY SAFE


          • Hi JD — I do wish you and anyone else searching later this month the best of luck, but based on where most people have hinted that they are searching, I’d say my “hard biscuit” bet with Seeker is safe this year. Indulgence will get to spend another winter under the snow.

        • Hello JD. Thank you for your well wishes. I truly do wish you the same. I’ll be leaving on the 16th and probably be too tired to do anything that day. It will be a time to spend with family and enjoy the beauty of the surroundings and make wonderful memories along the way. Being I am the “searcher” of the family, it may be difficult to convince the family to put BOTG and search. I truly do hope you or others can put the puzzle together and find it this season. As for me, that would be nice, too.

          Good luck in your search, JD. Have fun, be safe and make wonderful memories for you and your family. 🙂

          • Thanks. I truly do appreciate your good wishes. You are one of the most polite bloggers, and one I respect a lot.


  62. From what comments I am seeing – most here are stuck. Suck on stupid – no – I think you are all smarter than that. You are looking in the wrong place. Ya’ll refuse to change your thinking. In the beginning – I was like that too. I thought I had it figured out. I didn’t. If you don’t explore different avenues – you will never find it. IMHO>

    It takes courage to say I am wrong and then go down another path……………………….

    Most here could take all their paper work and throw it out the window and be better off.

    • Hello inthechaseto. What did you use to get you to your solution to the poem? What did you see that made you say, “This is how you’re suppose to read it,”?

      • pdenver –

        I never said to myself – this is how you are supposed to read it. I assume you are talking about the poem. I read the poem over and over – and then in my kitchen it came to me like a lightning bolt – where I thought he placed it.
        I thought I knew exactly where it was. So I at least had a ending point. That’s the easy way. I don’t think you can find it by the easy way only. I think you have to plan. build and put in the work – and there’s a lot of it – to pin point the spot.

        The poem led me to the solve. I’ll give one hint to this and then I’m done giving hints because it doesn’t change anyone’s thinking, and I might as well be talking to the wind. I certainly don’t need any pats on the back and perhaps what I am doing here is nothingness. It is making me sad that so many don’t get it – and I don’t need that. I tried and so be it.

        The aberrations are on the edge.

        I know the next question……….

        My spot has only changed maybe a 1/4 mile.

        • you say, ” I’ll give one hint to this and then I’m done giving hints because it doesn’t change anyone’s thinking, and I might as well be talking to the wind.” You follow this up with your “Hint” – “The aberrations are on the edge.”

          One definition of aberration = failure of a mirror, refracting surface, or lens to produce exact point-to-point correspondence between an object and its image. Like a mirror in a carnival side-show.

          Sorry, The distortion is on the edges??? How is this a hint. I would gladly listen to your hint, if it made ANY sense…but alas, You will have to be a lot clearer in your “hints” if you want me to “get it”.

          Just my opinion.


        • I can’t help but ask why you haven’t retrieved it yet?
          Can I ask what state you’re in?

          • If you are asking me – my answer is Torrential Waters. Waters are too swift and deep to search my final spot. Was out five weeks ago, and will return on the 22nd/23rd. I am searching in Wyoming, not in YNP

            Thanks for asking – hope that you were asking with hope of an honest answer.

            Good luck in your search, and STAY SAFE


        • Hello inthechaseto. Please don’t feel others aren’t listening, for they truly are…I am one. My simplemindedness is just having a hard time trying to understand what it is that you’re to have us understand in the words that have been used to convey your thoughts. I’m glad lightening struck and I hope you’ll be able to prove your solution soon and the 1/4 mile made the difference to know exactly where it’s at. 🙂

        • JD and pdenver –

          I seem to be having a bad day……please forgive me.

          I know you are not mind readers….Ha

          You know FF said the aberrations are on the edge……..or something similar. Here is my definition of Aberrations…………

          deviation from what is normal, expected, or usual

          What is out of the norm or unusual in the book? It’s the stamps,,,,,,,,,They are not the way they are in real life. They are there for a reason.

          Eaglesabound –

          I am looking in the colorful state of Colorado.

          • Thanks – That is so much clearer now, and I appreciate it.

            You are right, the stamps are a bit “odd”…not as they should be.

            Good luck in your Colorado search. When do you go out?


          • Me too!
            But I don’t think the stamps are what’s on the edge. IMO of course

          • Inthechase,
            I’m really glad you clarified your previous comment… I started to write a post about you leaving the “The aberrations on the edge’ as your own hint. I was a bit dumbfound why you had just simply repeated what we have been told with no personal explanation/thoughts from you as you normally have.

            I can’t tell you how many times I bite my tongue when I read something to the affect ~ IMO the first clue needs to be nailed down or IMO the chest is above 5000′ ~ as if I was to dumb too know this.

            But I change my mind in the process of typing it out… No sense in being a drama queen when it won’t change anything.

            Thanks for adding ‘your’ thoughts.

          • Hello inthechaseto. Everyone has a bad day every now and then. Mine happened a couple days ago. Thought we were buying a travel trailer, only to find out the ad was a hoax and they took off with our $3000. Hard lesson to learn. There are definitely aberrations in the book, which lead me to my search area outside of Colorado. While thinking about the stamps, my thoughts lead me to a different understanding, but do you think I could remember what it was without writing it down on paper? I didn’t do it this time.

          • To all…………

            I have my good and bad days since my husband died…

            Thanks for your support..

            I am now on my way to another funeral of a friend. Be back later………….


            Isn’t it sad that there are con artistes in the world like that……sorry that happened to you. Rv’ing is so fun. Tell me what they looked like and I’ll go get them for you. just kidding. Was it over craigslist?

          • Hello inthechaseto. Sorry you lost a friend. Hang in there. If you need support, just give us the chance to try and put a smile on your face.

            Yes, it was on Craigslist and then was told I had to pay via eBay gift cards, plus an additional $1000 for “insurance.” It’s still listed:


            Don’t fall for this ad! It’s a cruel hoax!

  63. This Q & A is very interesting. I have tried to solve the poem in many different ways; however, my thought process probably remains the same. I probably need to change my thought process. I’m drawn to people on this blog, who think the same way I do – I need to change the way I think. It’s difficult: but I guess I need to adapt and let the “poem drive my thinking”, instead of letting my “thinking drive the poem”. Just like Mr. Sandlin had to let the bike teach his brain.

    This change will be difficult.

    • Golden Retrievers,

      I’m not going to pretend I know how to read the poem. Even though I have been an advocate that we might be reading the poem wrong. I was chatting with another searcher who reminded me that directional doesn’t mean the same from one to another. I normally add Directional ‘only’ as to say… a must to travel from point to point, as the poem appears to be from our perspective.

      You said: “…however, my thought process probably remains the same.” I’m not exactly sure of ‘your’ thought process, but can the poem still be directional with out actually traveling or at the very least traveling a much smaller amounts of way points?
      Just like the video we think of one way of doing something when faced with something that looks normal to us… The bike at first glance looked very normal to what we perceived it to be, but once one it, it didn’t meet what we normal assumed. Can the poem be similar? Maybe we just need to look at it as correcting our own presumptions of what we think directional / follow means.

      I’m not saying this is the answer or the right way. But I’m reminded of a conversation on this blog about the use of words… “walking through a door” while everyone would agree we know what was intended… can we actually walk through a door?
      My “example” for the poem would be this; “And take it in the canyon down” Are we to believe that an 80 year old with a heavy backpack making two trips in one afternoon actually went up and down a “commonly understood” canyon? or could there be another explanation to what a canyon refers to or even if it is needed to be actually traveled?

      I’m not suggesting those explanation are remotely correct… I’m suggesting are we stuck on directional to be ‘only’ traveling / stomping from point to point simply because we look at it from one perspective… the need to follow it like Ducks in a row.

      Yes, this is simply opinions for thought.

      • ff could have taken his sedan down whatever canyon he might be referencing.

        • Exactly! Fenn couldn’t be more clear when he says, “Not far, but too far too walk.” You AIN’T WALKING YET!

      • Seeker, You’ve made a good point. There are 2 or 3 places in his book, TTOTC, where ff listed instructions and/or listed a sequence of events to take place; and these instructions/events didn’t involve traveling . . . he was describing the events taking place in the room. (example page 110).

        Maybe instead of traveling a lot, ff’s instructions tell us to look FOR something or DO something. I’ll try to look at the poem from that perspective. ff said, in my words: these are not ff’s exact words: some people walked past 7 clues. Whoa! Stop walking past clues! hee hee

        I’m not saying we don’t travel at all, just maybe less than we’ve been thinking.

        • Golden,
          All just suggestions… But now that you mentioned page 110 [ I actually have that page and a few others ] Fenn asked about the bronze Indian, is it hot or cold? And the children were stumped. Makes me think… is a casting, a structure? As we all do, I have wondered why not just say buried or not buried… we know he says hidden, so what’s up with not clarifying? There can be many reasons or no reason at all. I guess that is why we think about it.

          Sorry you made my mind wonder into another realm. I step back through the portal now. Yep directions ~ directional, instructions ~ follow, even maybe blueprints ~ Architectural “Plans”… all can be so closely related in definitions, yet so completely different in their usages.

          Why are we told we need to Plan? How many pairs of dry socks will I need? Sorry was standing to close to that portal again…

  64. Gosh, this week’s Featured Question and Weekly Words is something else. Would someone do me a favor and look inside my ear and see if there’s a sign that reads “Space For Rent,” please. 🙂

  65. I have worked with blueprints quite a bit.
    They are a copy of the original drawing or document & made many back in the day smelling the ammonia was part of the experience.
    I have created many drawings documents as well & made blueprints from them & still have some from the 1980’s that are classified – oops!
    Most of the ones I have are from mechanical drawings on how to reproduce or assemble a part.
    The blueprint Forrest is talking about is a copy of the poem, he has the original, but obviously blueprints are reproductions of the original drawings or documents with directions & specifications to recreate the original thought in mind.

    He felt as though he was an architect when he created the poem. (paraphrasing)
    When you build a house from a blueprint which part of the building to you build first, the foundation, the roof, would you put the drywall up before putting the wires & plumbing in the house?
    No, it all has to be done in order & many tasks can be done at the same time.

    OK, where are the General Contractors to help out here, I’m more of a mechanical type even though I have some Architectural experience.

    Anyway, I see the poem as directions on how to recreate a path where the treasure is.
    Of my opinion.

    • I’m not an architect, builder or mechanical anything. But are blueprints nothing more than ‘instructions’? Like ingredients to follow in proper order to make that crow pie we all know and love. And are we to “follow” the poem as directional [ meaning all traveling ] or instructions [ meaning viewing in proper order ]?

      YES, Yes, we need to travel to some point… obviously, but is that what the poem is saying? Was fenn building a path or simply showing us what he sees.
      We have been told; without the first clue, say home. Fenn as stated, searcher told him where they were and they went pass the other clues and the chest.
      My question for thought is this [call it a WhatIF, if you like]… are we starting at the foundation or are we at the finish product, looking at the instructions?

      • Yes Seeker,
        Blueprints are part of the reproduction process with instructions, directions & specifications on how to recreate a duplicate of the original or the original idea itself.
        With the poem, we already know the order in which to recreate, with blueprints, that knowledge is to be known & understood by the people trying to recreate.

        “Was fenn building a path or simply showing us what he sees.”
        Both, if you can visualize.

        I would think we have to begin at the foundation first & cease when the whole building is complete.

        Instructions, directions, a map, it all looks the same to me considering the earths surface is involved.

      • yup, blueprints are just instructions from somebodies idea. The idea has already been established, the blueprint is the instructions of how to “recreate” the idea. I work with blueprints everyday, machine shop for aerospace, and we are basically machining parts to some engineers’ idea of what will work, where. No blueprint, no recreation of said engineers idea. So, maybe looking at the poem as a set of instructions is how to recreate the idea.
        But, you already know my thought on that Seeker…

      • Hey Seeker, I find it a bit confusing and it sounds like my extremely bad day fishing. I followed directions/blueprint from a pro –new directions with a new hope for something other than crow — and I felt like the bike rider. Everything was upside down and reverse and my dry flies got eaten by trees, weeds, rocks, and birds made multiple attempts at dry-fly feast while my flies circled past their nest. I’d like to just get in the box, close the flaps, and hide. Mother Nature is laughing at me.

    • I think it’s most interesting that FF has referred to himself as the “architect who drew the poem” (sic, to paraphrase).

      Next, he tells us “the blueprint is challenging.”

      From my experience practicing architecture (back in the stone age, before 3D/CGI became ubiquitous), it was one thing to understand the process of HOW something got built (reading the blueprints) and quite another to ENVISION it in 4 dimensions (creating the design). Yes, 4. Substitute ‘poem’ for blueprints and ‘chase’ for design.

      So, if I am to “build” upon FF’s analogy, there must be something structurally foundational he has laid out. And before a foundation can be laid, even a minor amount of excavation is required.

      OK, so the excavation is research…research into FF’s background/persona, but also the history that informs that/him. Armed with that “knowlege”, the foundation becomes critical if the poem is to pass the test of time. Is the foundation Clue 1, which must be “nailed”, as FF has told us? That implies wood, which isn’t considered structurally sound for a foundation (Venice excluded….or, is it?). An aberration?

      At the very least, this little geist gedanken has jogged my brain in a new direction – FINALLY!

    • I’m a little surprised that out of at 150 smarter every day videos, everyone seemed to focus on the backward bicycle one?
      Also, a blueprint is a drawing or rendering. So, the drawing is challenging?
      In addition, if you scroll down the page of videos you will find some that relate to TTOTC. just saying.

    • Blueprints = instructions as several have said
      Blueprints = drawings Drawings = Illustrations

      Is Forrest asking up to ADJUST how we are looking at a particular illustration in TTOTC or TFTW?

      Just a thought.

      Good luck to all searchers and STAY SAFE


      • JD,
        He mentions blueprint, adjust & illustrate in the last paragraph.
        Is this a coincidence or is it by design?
        I think something or someone will have to be adjusted to be able to get it.

        • I’ve been told that I may need an attitude adjustment a time or two – does this count?


          • Hahahah JD,
            Been told the same & sometimes I think the person saying it needs it as well.
            “the treasure may be located by the one who can best adjust.”
            My adjustments will be made on the playing field considering I struck out again.
            If I get another chance…….

        • I think that I am starting to get the picture, or is it a drawing, or an illustration—too many options.

  66. If I am stuck in my thinking, at least for now, I am happy being stuck.

    Stuck #1 – I believe the poems architecture to be a circle.
    Stuck #2 – I believe that there are nine sentences that equate to nine clues
    Stuck #3 – I believe on the old adage – Keep It Simple Stupid (Stupid = me)
    Stuck #4 – I believe that the poem is straightforward – no tricks.
    Stuck #5 – I believe that Forrest has never tried to mislead anyone.
    Stuck #6 – I believe that the TC is still out there
    Stuck #7 – I believe that the riddles will be solved this season, and that the TC will be found by some deep thinking, imaginative person who is having a LOT of fun!
    Stuck #8 – I believe that when the “Solve” is published, that others will say, “Why the heck didn’t I think of that.?” The “Solve” will be simple and direct.
    Stuck # 9 – I believe that no codes or cyphers are required to solve the poem/riddle.
    Stuck #10 – I believe that I am stuck in my ways, and that until proven otherwise, I will stay stuck, and happy in my little pool.

    Good luck to all – happy hunting and STAY SAFE


    • JD,
      You and I agree on 8 out of 10.
      Good Luck on your adventure in a few weeks.
      It’s not the Olympics, but I hope you bring home the gold. 😉

      • 8 out of 10 ain’t bad.

        Thanks for the well-wish.

        The same to you – good luck in your search.

        curious which two do we disagree on?


        • 1 & 2
          I believe it flows back and forth, not circular.
          I also believe there are only hints in some of the sentences, not clues.

          • And that is why the chase – is the chase! We each see the words a bit differently, and until the chest is found, one opinion is exactly as good as the next….
            JUST MY OPINION!

            Good luck and STAY SAFE


    • #1 – not sure about circular, but I definitely believe parts of the poem relate to other parts
      #2 – yep
      #3 – no doubt
      #4 – aabsolutely#5 – not purposely. I believe people take ff’s words and adapt them in such a way that they can make it for their solve.
      #6 – yes, until there’s a reason to believe otherwise
      #7 – …it’s only a matter of time…
      #8 – yep.
      # 9 – agreed.
      Stuck #10 – I think I said those exact words to a friend who was trying to talk me out of putting BOTG….only more explitives

      IMO, obviously.

  67. Ok searchers, like Cholly has shown us above with the youtube video we need to retrain the brain.
    We need to look at the root or archaic meanings to the words in the poem and go back to basics. Or as Forrest said back in the box.

    We think we know what a word means, but it could be the total opposite. Like country:-)

    • DPT: “We think we know what a word means, but it could be the total opposite.”

      Yea, right.
      Let us know hoe it goes DPT.
      It could mean the opposite but after today’s post, I would go back 180.

      • Jake;

        I think you are both right. Forrest took fifteen years to perfect his poem – using just the right word to impart a particular meaning in a given circumstance. One instance may require the most straight-forward, most simple and most modern meaning of a word, and the next instance an archaic definition. Even if an archaic definition is used, it is still straight-forward…IMO

        EVERY definition of EVERY word must be considered, and then the searcher must be wise enough to ADJUST his thought process to include the most appropriate one…remembering all the while, the discarded definitions just in case they need to be brought forward as the searcher ADJUSTS his solve when new information is found.

        Just my opinion, of course

        Take care, good luck, and stay flexible enough to ADJUST to new found information and STAY SAFE!


        • Yes JD,
          I agree, it could be an archaic definition but I have to add one more thing for my criteria.
          It has to flow elegantly in the poem like the poem when you use any definitions of any words.

          You are Sapien JD.
          Did you know Sage means wise?


          I should have brought some back here to flavor the stew.

          If you can’t adjust,
          You will rust.

          Your are well oiled JD.
          It’s been a pleasure chatting with you.

          Just my oxidized opinion.

          • Well, I have been “Well oiled” more than once in my life – OH we aren’t talking about the same thing are we??? or are we???


      • Jake Faulker, I really like your insight and appreciate what you bring to the chase.

        That being said you proved my point exactly. Read my post again. I said words can be the total opposite. Like country.

        Country- old English and Latin , contra, literally means Opposite.

        The root meaning of the word country means opposite(land).

        Look it up.

        I am sure Forrest knows that and we should to.

        • Thanks DPT,
          Did not know that. I am reluctant to have any opposite meanings of words in the poem. When I tried this approach last year, I did not have a good feeling about it because the poem lost it’s elegant flow & wanted to keep that intact completely.
          I have decided last year I was going to keep the “Elegant Flow” rule #1.
          Not saying I’m right or wrong but the poem can become awkward & unstable in my mind when messing with it too much.
          This has been one of the reasons I decide to keep it simple.
          So if a child reads the poem, I would like to think he/she would see it at face value.
          Ex, canyon is a canyon – creek is a creek – water is water – etc….
          Good luck DPT & I enjoy your insight as well.

          • Jake Faulker, I agree with you. If I am going to use the basic root meaning to the word it has to flow. You make some good points and I agree. I will have to keep those in mind as I move forward.

            I believe he does want us to understand the basic meanings to certain words as well. I believe that is why he told us on the last page of TTOTC that a butterfly was originally called a flutterby.

            I believe you are in a good search area and if I can help you in any way to get the chest I will Jake.

            Like I have said before if I can’t figure it out I would like to help someone else figure it out.

            Thanks and be safe in the chase Jake.

          • Thanks DPT,
            Safety comes first on the list.
            He does tend to use words used back in the day & may play a roll in how to figure this out.
            One of my X-better half’s always called butterflies – flutterby’s, just makes more sense to me.
            I love my search area so much, I would like to rest my bones there.
            I’m in a holding pattern waiting for the creeks & river’s to subside…..

          • Agreed. I tried to apply the KISS method as much as possible to my solve. Then I added some child-like filters, for lack of a better term. For example: WWWH. In the poem, quite literally, warm waters halt at the letter “S”. Not sure I want to call this logic, but working my way through the poem this way has finally led me to My first complete solve.

            IMO, as always

          • JCS & all,
            There’s one thing that is stuck in my mind even at the age of 50.
            I am very surprised at all the people I come in contact with that for some reason they don’t remember they were like that child some time ago.
            Never lose touch with the child within.

  68. Hello JD, I absolutely know what you mean by a circle. To me that is obvious . I wish I could talk to you directly about this. As for alternating clues, I again see both ways. Like you said when the solve is done people will be amazed at the straight forwardness of it all

  69. The following is my opinion, and opinion only. We keep hearing Mr. Fenn but not all of us listen. To be able to grasp what the poem is saying we have to surrender to it. Some of us think we are so smart that we keep telling ourselves that we can beat this. Some of us approach it with preconceived ideas as to what the clues may be. Let me give you an example- Some of us are arachnophobic, but we do not know why, if we are honest with ourselves. In my situation my mom is and she passed on to me because I was a child,and did not know better,and watched how some many actresses and actors played their role so well in movies that made me arachnopbobic. We are but a result of our past experiences real or unreal. This is how we are approaching the poem, and that’s why we all fail at it. Innocence will solve this poem,and most of us lack it.

    This is my humble opinion. In order to find out where one needs to begin one needs to follow the poem precisely. Once one follows it precisely and finds out where their going then and only then, stanza number 1 is the most important clue. Nothing else matters but this stanza at this point. After a searcher knows what this means then and only then, WWWH comes into play. Not before. It is my opinion and opinion only.RC

    • I respect your opinion, RC. My opinion is its not even as difficult as that. Stanza 1 is where it’s at in regards to finding the correct starting point. Then follow the rest of the clues to the tc. I believe one can just solve reading down the poem from the start.

      • The following are my opinions.We are difficult ones (in general) fundamentaldesign not the clues. My opinion is that the clues have to be followed the way they are written in order for us to understand exactly where to start. Like I said before the clues are a puzzle. We are given the pieces of the puzzle in order, but does that mean they go together in the way they were given to us, or do we play with the pieces and find a beginning, a middle,and an end? I really do not think that one clue by itself, clue #1 in cluded , will lead anyone to be somewhat possitive that they have the correct solve.RC.

    • RC,
      While I can see what you’re saying and agree with most. My thoughts keep going back to How do you find/understand/recognize what our starting point is?
      There must be an indicator that tells us what that is or it will always be a guess. “preconceived ideas” as you explain might be the downfall. Is this what fenn meant by a word that is key? The indicator that might take out the guess work. Is “begin it where” the same as “Know where to begin”?

      We all analyze the heck out this poem, and have looked at it as simple as possible and a difficult as we can twist it. And yet when searcher tell fenn of what they think, where they go, their solves and he knows they have clues 1 and 2… and they don’t know, even when on site and pass the other clues and the chest…this send up the red distress flares for me.

      What you say sounds very reasonable, just as much as another saying, no stanza 1 is an intro and the clues start at “Begin”
      But here we are, coming up on six years folks have and still arrive at those first two clues and now some may have more clues… and fenn is still saying… They may not know. and again I see that red flare burst in the air!! How the heck can we be there, see whatever is to see, and still not know?

      I have my thoughts, many many thoughts, however is this Q&A and video that fenn presented a sort of exercise that he is telling us… even though you see what you see, you don’t KNOW what you’re seeing, without changing those “preconceived ideas”

      It’s not what you think it is… it’s what I can make you think it is.

      So I ask myself this question… what is every searcher on the planet doing exactly the same way?
      I’m attempt, not see where we need to go [ because I’m just as lost as everyone else, I just admit it ] BUT to see where we all went wrong.

      • I wish that I could respond without giving away my solve, but alas there is no way. Suffice it to say that I found a word in the last two stanzas of the poem that directed me to the first stanza, that led me to wwwh, and to my solve. This is why I am so adamant in my belief that the architecture of the poem is a circle.

        Wish I could say more.

        Good luck to all searchers and STAY SAFE


        • “The person who finds the treasure will have studied the poem over and over, and thought, and analyzed and moved with confidence. Nothing about it will be accidental. T. S. Eliot said: We shall not cease from our exploration, and at the end of all our exploring, will be to arrive where we started, and know the place for the first time.” (kinda paraphrasing)

          Will be to arrive where we started – Appears to be a circle to me.

          “Ron, your question sounds like a travelogue, but I’ll answer it. No, I don’t want to be that bold. But I will say that I walked less than a few miles if that will help. I just looked “few” up and one definition is “scant.” Why do I sound like I’m talking in circles? f ”

          Talking in circles.

          IMO, a circle has something to do with the solve.

          • In my opinion, although it might be fun to talk about the circular nature of the poem it is of little value in finding the chest or following the clues. If a person gets their head turned in a particular mindset about the framing of the clues in the poem then it becomes harder to see the less obvious as the clues are followed. This may very well be what Forrest is alluding to in his latest post on Jenny’s site. We have to be willing to learn new ideas as we move through the poem. Using the poem in the way that we are used to following directions may not get us very far and may, in fact, prevent us from making progress.

        • JD, you have said you’re going near the end of this month to search. First. ‘break a leg” lol.
          Second why not narrow the “word” to a single stanza… that would be 29 words we need to think about out of 58 possibilities. I think you would still be safe…
          And while we’re talking about words… what is your take on why fenn used these three words where he used them? Treasures, chest, trove.
          And I’ll ask another question, if you don’t mind… I mean you’re done with your solve and just waiting to go, maybe you can give me something to think about.
          Is the video, the bike itself is not exactly like all other bikes, it steers opposite. Out of all the brain teaser videos and I recall a show about the same… optical illusion, slide of hand, mazes. picture that have what looks like two different pic in one etc etc. { I remember the show opened with Rubik cubes [a 3D puzzle] hanging and from one angle it looked like a solid wall, and from another angle it spelled out the name of the show} Anyways…Why ‘this’ video?

  70. “Innocence will solve this poem, and most of us lack it.”

    ~ RC ~

    Love that observation!

  71. Hello all. I just returned from my trip. Anyone here know how to upload photos and videos. I got 2 pictures of what may be the blaze and some videos.

    • Hello Dr. Coffee,
      I use YouTube for my videos & my own hosting for pics, but there are several free sites to upload your pics. Google it.
      Looking forward to see the blaze…….

  72. here is my take on stanza one- to me its just a picture that shows you what to look for, to help you find, the place where the treasure chest is

    • frank can you elaborate? How do we see a picture of what to look for, if we don’t know what to look for?

      Seriously, what is it that we are really looking for? We know that our “quest” is finding the chest. But is that what the poem is telling us to actually look for?

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