Unpopular Attempt to Solve the Poem, By Seeker

9 clues equal 9 lines and we all know that WWWH is the one and only first clue, which leaves take it in the canyon down to be clue two…etc. Well, I’m not buying what y’all are selling.

F. Fenn in a Q&A;

Someone unfamiliar with your poem receives a message that says “meet me where warm waters halt, somewhere in the mountains north of Santa Fe”. Would they be able to work out where to go? If they can’t, would they need the whole poem, another stanza, or just a line or word to help them on their way? ~Phil Bayman

There are a few words in the poem that are not useful in finding the treasure Phil, but it is risky to discount any of them. You over simplify the clues. There are many places in the Rocky Mountains where warm waters halt, and nearly all of them are north of Santa Fe. Look at the big picture, there are no short cuts. f

The thing that Keeps itching my brain is, how many clues does it take to get an answer? The kitchen sink solvers [ coined by colokid ~ thx ] may not get this, or even want to entertain it, but I’m hoping for some feed back from those who don’t have all the answers to every page in the book, every SB entry, and don’t only use 9 lines out of 24 in trying to come up with a workable solve. And please, lets put aside the scuba gear, shovels and pick axes for a moment as well.

“Many wwh in the RM’s… look at the big picture, there are no short cuts.” This seems to imply if there are many warm waters halt, wouldn’t there be just as many canyon down? Let examine the KiSS method on this [ Keep it simple Seeker ]. Should waters as plural mean ‘simply’ all liquid water then all waters take it in the canyon down referring to any and all canyons that water is directed to…Why wouldn’t canyon be plural as well? Water[s] indicate all water to all canyons ~ as a system ~ seems elementary. Which now might give credence to Not far, but too far to walk as the travels of the waters over the RM’s range. Or simply put, the watershed of the the Rockies. Does this seem to look at the poem as the “big picture” straightforward and Kissable? The problem is, will others even consider this as a single possible one clue?

Lets jump back to stanza 1 for a second. “As I have gone alone”… Does the RM’s seem to reference where fenn went to? Fenn told us that the chest is hidden in the mountains north of SF… that was it… nothing more. Were we supposed to figure out he meant the RM’s? Later in a Q&A he answered this to be the RM’s.

But now he reference “hints of riches new and old” Sure we can say the chest, but I’m gonna go with riches as knowledge and give new and old, a past and present usage. So would stanza 2 be more plausible with the knowledge of the watershed as the beginning [past] and this time period [present] and the understanding of the system itself. “The need to know where to start comment”

Now we all know that the RM’s are shared by two countries, Canada and the USA and stanza 3 stated from there it no place for the meek. A few things come to mind; 1 Put in below Canada national symbol the Brown Beaver ~ not unlike 2. our Bald Eagle as Home of the Brave and I’ll add that the continental divide is known as the ‘back bone of the Rockies’.

“the end is ever drawing nigh” might be telling us that “end” as border or boundary is were we need to start because of the semicolon might refer to semi has ½ the range… below hoB ~ Canada drawing as to the watershed “nigh” to be the left or west side of the divide. Just heavy loads and water high… finishes off the first three stanzas with a location in the USA, on the CD and near the end of the range. Multiple meaning and usages of words are needed to read the poem this way… such as halt means a temporary change in direction, that meek is the CD in the home of the Brave below the Canadian Border. “IF you’ve been wise and found the Blaze”… possibly a non-human trail being the CD “look quickly down your quest to cease, but tarry scant with marvel gaze…” Just take the chest and go in peace.” Follow the CD and the RM’s to it final point.

So why is it I [ fenn ] must go and leave his trove for all to seek. Does the simple explanation seems, he left his home to go north into the RM’s? A place he has gone many time and now illness and age has made him weak. This reading of the poem doesn’t count clues, it understands the poem and uses the 9 sentences in full with the poem as a whole. The northern most section of the range to the southern most section as well is called the rainbow arch. It represents the rising and setting of the sun crossing the divide. This leaves stanza 6 to finalize the location of the chest.

We have covered the entire range, understand its geological necessity not only for climate but waters distribution and how it effect the inhabitants of the continent. “my church is in the mountains and along the river bottoms where dreams and fantasies alike go to play” All leading to a small location on the CD at the end [ boundary ] of the RM’s and the end of fenns rainbow.

Stanza 6 IMO finalize the information to the location… But a question pops up.

Are we to simply walk to the chest and pick it up or is there work needed to be done?

So does it matter if the clue count ends up being nothing more than information “contained” in nine lines of the poem? Now comes your turn… what say you?

“Forrest, Did you intend for there to be 9 clues, or did it work out to be just right with 9? ~ halo”

“Nice thinking halo, I didn’t count the clues until the poem had been finalized. Although I changed it a few times over the months I think the number stayed about the same.f”

793 thoughts on “Unpopular Attempt to Solve the Poem, By Seeker

    • Yep Jake, In most solves being posted or a searchers renditions of what 9 clues are… the above doesn’t count 9 places as clue references or how many clues consist of lines in the poem.

    • Seeker,
      You do not give any specific area in the Rocky’s with your theory, but just a way of thinking on how to read the poem.
      We can all dance around this forever & never put a foot down in any area.
      I know you have been at this for a long time & probably thought in the beginning it was straightforward.
      What was it that changed your mind in thinking this way?
      Your theory of the reading of the poem in this fashion tends to lean outside the box.
      I have thought before that maybe the clues were like a bulls-eye, the first clue is a large area & the circle inside is obviously smaller & the 3rd is even a smaller area, then you would have to put BOTG & stomp for the other 6 clues.

      I am not buying all you sell here either so the feeling is mutual.

      • You want the poem to be specific to different locations… I have to ask you why? Why are most so bend on 9 different location and all must be stomped out?

        As far as “changing my mind”… I haven’t changed anything really. I have joined discussion about directional / stomping out 9 clues, but if you ask some of the other searchers who have read my comments, I think they would disagree that I had any mind set to 9 line to 9 clues. The box thing is strictly argumentative… a reader need to open there thoughts to all possibilities of “a poem” Fenn chose a poem for a reason.

        You said; “I am not buying all you sell here either so the feeling is mutual.”

        That’s ok… I did say in the beginning of this…”The kitchen sink solvers… may not get this, or even want to entertain it, but I’m hoping for some feed back from those who don’t have all the answers….”

      • Seeker: “I haven’t changed anything really”
        So you’re saying that you haven’t changed anything since the beginning of the chase?

        MW ~ “The blueprint is challenging so the treasure may be located by the one who can best adjust.”

        So you have not adjusted?
        It’s been the same from day one?
        I find that hard to chew on.

        Chew on this.

        • Nice comeback Jake…
          Sure I have tweaked my thoughts. But I’m a believer in the poem solves itself, fenn’s comments and Q&A are valuable for thoughts, but in no ways is attempting to give out anything that will refer to what a clue refers to etc.
          The book should be helpful, but not the way a lot of folks see it… I think it confuses most, more than helps. They read something and automatically force it into the solve. I think the book can help, but one needs to have a very good correct understand of the poem, before they can Identify what a hint might be and how helpful it is.
          I also think that this poem’s challenge is not solvable by many ~ imo… yet it does give all the same opportunity to try. And yes, I still think we are reading the poem wrong.

          If we were close to the proper reading… searchers would have at least understood, when in the field, at the first two clues what the heck they were looking at. But yet the all seemed to not know they were correct. we are missing something… maybe something small, but it has a big impact on the solve.

          So yeah, I have tweaked my line of thoughts, but stay constant to the poem tell us how to read it line of thinking…
          One example to my tweaking is; once at the location of the first two clues… we needn’t go any farther. [ 500’ish]
          Another is; the poem tells us how to get to the first two clues only and on site [ sight ] we understand beforehand the other clues are found.
          so knowing 9 clues from the poem doesn’t work in this scenario, the poem is the information to get to the seven clues that gives us the location of the chest.

          That’s not saying the poem doesn’t indicated seven other clue, but it only supplies us how to find them by bring us to the one spot.

          I’m looking for that “important possibility”

        • I’m glad you admitted that fact.
          We all adjust, tweak & change things when we fail.
          Do we know if we tweaked it in the right direction?
          No, we don’t.

          I do not use the kitchen sink in any of my solves & have made up my mind based upon the poem that the hints in the books are places.

          I like to keep it short & to the point without all the fluff.

  1. Interesting Seeker, but did your hypothesis get you any closer to the TC?

    I MAY be missing something, but if you are closer, I can not see the path.

    Good luck to you Seeker, may you ever seek what you desire in life.

    TRY to STAY SAFE in the process.


    • This post wasn’t about, did it get me closer JD. It is a suggestion about how to read the poem differently to what has been posted by others. And at the same time… why would I give out the ending?

      • I didn’t ask you to give out the ending. To me, and this is just my opinion, if finding a different way to read the poem does not get you closer to the TC, what is the good?


        • I dont know that there is a way to tell if you are getting closer to the treasure, other than confidence and intuition.

          Reading the poem in such ways that you imagination can work might be what is needed, but if your imagination only goes so far, then maybe you were not meant to find the treasure, and this treasure was meant for a specific thinking mind. Everyone else gets to enjoy the sunshine, while only few can actually find the treasure, simply because of how their mind works naturally. Of course I am basing this off of everything that Fenn says, and understanding what he says, and understanding why he says the things that he says.

          I think the person with the right heart to follow will find this. I do think that there are many smart people that are incapable of finding it, simply because they lack the mind needed to guide them with confidence. Because they will not recognize the confidence needed to guide them the way.

        • Hey JD & Seeker & Jake
          We have all been here for a long time and I have to say that what Seeker is offering isn’t something to just throw out. I’ve been around 2 and 1/2 years and done 9 searches in all. Living in Illinois it is costly at 62 but I love the challenge and for someone to reach out and offer up a different way of reading the poem then let’s except it as a new way of challenging the solves that we have. Let’s face it guy’s we have all eaten our fair share of crow. To set here and argue years later that a new way of reading the poem is wrong is putting your foot in your own mouth. No one has the chest, so I can say with confidence that the things we are doing does have room for improvement. I’m sure that I’m going to catch some flack over this but all I’m trying to do is figure out the poem. If it means reading it from a different direction then I’m willing to try. What’s the worst thing that can happen? Crow Pie for dinner again, well then I can tell Seeker that it wasn’t worth it but until I try his way I have no reason to put his new idea down. I’m just saying guy’s, we should be trying to help each other out not badgering some for trying out something new…I’m just saying…..IMHO

          • Your right tim,remember the picture where you could see a young woman and if you looked another way ,you could see an older lady.we all have our own interpretation of the poem.yet others are interesting. But no butting heads will get you nowhere. Mr.forrest is probably laughing and saying on my my.i still come up with different places.and I’ve gone nowhere. Wish i could find the solution to the poem.like all of us.i just hope whoever finds it .needs the money like most of us.good luck to everyone of you

          • Timothy A.

            Great point, we all should be open after 6 years to new ideas that get us “closer”, but I believe the problem lies in our interpretation of a key line within the poem that is blocking our progress. In my opinion, those that have been within 500/200 ft may have mentioned the first two clues correctly in an email to Forrest but did not know that they had indeed deciphered them correctly and moved on because they had no idea they had been so close. Forrest by no means is going to tell a searcher, to go back you had the first two correct, all he can do is just watch them go right past.

            “Alas, and dame fortune, so often a fickle and seductive wench, never spun her wheel to lure them back.”f


          • Mr.forrest,did you lose your fortune in central city or blackhawk,co.in them mountains. You played your hand and the house won, with those brown boots on.camel rock in new mexico with them brown boots.don’t forget those white socks you wear and of course those feet that carry you everywhere. Espanola perhaps.

          • Timothy A ” I’m sure that I’m going to catch some flack over this but all I’m trying to do is figure out the poem. If it means reading it from a different direction…”

            Welcome to My World Tim… a good debate brings out a lot of thought, and when I do debate I always try and use information we have available to give some kinda validation to those. But some folks see debates or arguments [meaning; presenting one case] , and even disagreements as an attack on them personally and/or their solve.

            No Flack from me Tim, I’m here for discussions about the poem. Otherwise, I have a HoneyDew list that need doin.

          • Wonderfully put! I was lost until I started looking at the words in the poem as a whole. Look at the meaning of a word… if it doesn’t fit, you found your clue! I’m headed out to search for the treasure for the first time. Been working on this thing for about 4 years. I was stuck with New Mexico until I found the word that was key. Forrest is one crafty genius.

  2. BigSkip back after some coronary work….

    Interesting interpretation with good possibilities, but I have to admit, I keep thinking of Fenn’s words; Don’t mess with the poem, take the clues (what ever they are) in sequential order and they will lead you to the TC. Apparently, some folks have been very close. I’m still puzzled as to which word or words are unimportant.

    • Big Skip,

      I not sure where you may think this interpretation is messing with the poem, or was out of consecutive order. Remember fenn also stated contiguous; touching, connected, neighboring… I think this attempt followed the constant. Help me out, what do you see that might be wrong?

      • Seeker –

        Good on you for posting this scenario of what you think. Thank You.

        I know many times I have told you – not to count clues. I think you are following that.

        I do have to ask – where did Forrest Fenn ever say neighboring – I missed it. please tell……….

        • The definition of “contiguous”; sharing a common border; touching. synonyms: adjacent, neighboring, adjoining, bordering, next-door…

        • 9clues,
          If your talking about angles, I have put thought into it, but notta. if that was the other meaning I’m surely all ears… I mean, I’m all ears for sure.

          What i liked about consecutive was… in math. order of numbers. or a pattern if you will.

          So just for fun, if we add contiguous and consecutive… we have re-occurring numbers/patterns.

          Sometime my thoughts scares the crap out of my brain…

  3. Personally I think that all nine “clues” are the exact same thing. For example if the chest was hidden in Big Ben the “clues” might be London, England,National Lampoon vacation circle, clock, uncles fried rice, large, BB, etc. Yes, they are consecutive in the poem because they appear in the order he wanted them, but just as helpful in any order one wants….not really stops per se…. I think that’s why it is so difficult/amusing for him to answer questions as well….and yet another reason that one couldn’t “get past” the first two clues…as they are all the first…and the last.
    Then again without London England or national Lampoon the above example would be quite difficult…each is.just as important to the whole. Just my opinion though….but certainly why I never worry when someone claims to be done with the first four, or halfway there or whatever. Like making a triangle with three points….two does absolutely no good one is no “closer” than with zero as the last point could put the middle infinitly anywhere. No two points would help at all. Maybe I am just a masochist though…

    I really REALLY like.your thoughts and makes it all seem way more approachable. Gonna have to try blending some grey areas here…. :)Thanks for sharing!!

    • I wouldn’t dismiss the possibility of clues being in one small area, such as your Big Ben example. I can read the poem as a grave of sorts with all the places connecting to what that would be. The problem… is the information to locate the chest in the poem or can the poem just lead to a single place to find/found the answers that tell/show where the chest lays in wait. Is this the part we are missing [ the important possibility ] … the poem will lead to the chest by way of the ‘information’ found on sight?

      • Do you ever think maybe the Clues are the answers themselves….not the questions? Where did the answers come from? Same place as the chest is resting? Like a dedication of sorts? To Peggy….who has Endured? Or in on a tangent and no way Jose…..?

        • I see your point… but like I asked another and used examples of fenn’s many comments… if the answers are placed in the book, why does fenn repeat… all the information to find the chest is in the poem. Again I would love to hear an example of how the poem refers back to the book. Fenn has stated that the book has hints but were not placed to aid the searcher.

          So I ask you… In the above theory, what part is not commonly known? We were told we need to analyze the poem, but I didn’t use the book, or even a map [ as to what I explained so far ] or researched everyone fenn ever knew, burn the book, measured his dog… it is all common knowledge and arranged as the poem goes.

          A clue is not an answer. Then it wouldn’t be a clue. I think fenn knows the difference. But as i said in the past… I can see how the poem “might” allude to the book… it’s a stretch, but I can see it as a possibility. How does the poem tell you that the book hold answers?

          • They were both written by the same person, understand the poem the way it was written and the way it was meant to be understood. Don’t just read the poem, feel the poem. It’s all a question of why? IMO

        • I’m not suggesting that the book holds the answers. I’m suggesting that the poem has the answers. The clues ARE the answers…not questions. The same answer exists nine times written different ways in the poem. Just a thought, not saying it is so.

          • I had that same though ironically with the Continental Divide. WWWH was global warming(oceans is plural like waters)..hoB the Brown trout is in two of the oceans(arctic..worth the cold, and indian…brave), the rain goes down the canyons, the CDT is too far to walk, the planet is not meek, water high is rain. ISA lake in Yellowstone was one of the places I searched because of this(half the water goes into pacific and half in atlantic and there’s a CD sign right there). He talked about having more then $50 in your pocket at the end of life ISA a failure. There was also the mention of the end being the same as the end, but looking different(don’t have that quote). Also the CDT wouldn’t be considered a human trail, but rather a water trail which is where fish live…not humans. Just searched as many places I felt were important along that trail…but never found anything.

          • Michael,
            Fenn talks about mirrors in the book, in SB etc. even took a selfie in one.

            Could new and old refer to opposites and if so, is there part[s] of the poem that can be read as such? It might fall under, don’t mess with the poem idea. But stanza 1 starts; “As I have…”
            Why not, ‘As I’ve… ‘ Could ASI be ISA?

          • @Michael I’ve heard that, it’s a mistake that it really doesn’t flow into both oceans also and he speaks of “mistakes”.

            @Seeker, Wow I love that AS I….this would also make sense that the treasure is wet in the romantic whimsy sorta way. Oh I’ve been to Isa…it’s filled with lily pads…(the gold frog). This was my spot a couple years ago and I told Forrest how they were going to rehab the bridge and all…he asked to see the link. I was up there this past summer and they actually moved the CD sign to the other side which I found interesting. So if that’s the case…then maybe there is some precise way to find the CDT. I did email the association and gave them like a $50 donation and the lady there gave me a file I could add to google earth that showed all the CDT signs in the Rockies. Also, if hoB was not trout….there’s a famous Mr. Brown who makes CDT maps. So home of Brown would take you right there.

            I really liked when I first realized that wwwh could have been the oceans warming since he said he’s more of a conservationist then most.

            I know many have looked at the CDT over the years…but maybe we’re all missing something or just haven’t turned over the right rock 😉

          • jonsey1 – You wrote:

            “The clues ARE the answers…not questions…”

            So by the 5th Stanza,…ff and WE know the answers contained within The Poem?:

            “So why is it that I must go
            And leave my trove for all to seek?
            The answers I already know,
            I’ve done it tired, and now I’m weak.”

            Great thoughts as always, Jamie! 🙂

          • Two years ago, or so, I gave an example of a famous poem-riddle where each clue resulted in the same answer. One did have to know something about the answer (sort of like knowing something about geography, as Fenn stated), but at the time the poem was written most everyone did.

            I was laughed at, but I still believe it is a very plausible approach.

            Here it is, and the answer is “Whale”.

            I am loudest of voices in orchestra heard,
            And yet in an orchestra never have been;
            I’m a bird of bright plumage, and less like a bird
            Nothing in nature has ever been seen.

            Touching earth, I expire; and in water I die;
            In air I lose breath, yet can swim and can fly;

            Darkness destroys me, and light is my death,
            Yet I can’t keep alive without stopping my breath;

            If my name can’t be guessed by a boy or a man,
            By a girl or a woman it certainly can.

            Scott W.

          • Jamie, Scott,
            I was skimming over this thinking about what you two implied. ‘9 times written different ways idea.’
            Scott’s example was great, and to be honest I would have never came up with Whale.

            Here’s the thing… how do we take a single answer or even a single subject… lets just say Devils Tower or volcanoes… and use that to locate something?

            This seems to imply that the poem would need to be in layers [ for lack of a better term ] not unlike different usages of the meanings of words. Heck, ya both know I’m all for that… but if I have one answer does that mean the answer is the word that is key? and the poem needs to be re-read with that answer in mind to traverse to the chest location?

            I get the answer part… I don’t get the how to use it part.

  4. seeker- nine sentences contain both clues and hints. If out of 166 words, there are only a few that will not help you find the treasure, why would you waste time trying to divine clues/hints , one from another? You had better pay close attention to every word.

    An error most people seem to be making, is thinking the words he chooses must make sense. He chooses words for many reasons, and some of them only have a very obtuse reference to logic.

    For example- brave- He says the treasure is in a safe place-easily accessed by an 80 year old man or a 3 year old girl.
    He chose the word brave for a different reason than a definition of having courage.
    You oversimplify the clues, and often over complicate them.

    • emment,
      The theory doesn’t count clue or line… so I’m confused to why you said that.
      You said also; “For example- brave- He says the treasure is in a safe place-easily accessed by an 80 year old man or a 3 year old girl.

      Edward, thanks for the question.
      The treasure is not hidden in a dangerous place in the normal definition of the word, realizing that there probably is no place on this planet that is safe under all conditions. ****Bloggers have quoted me as saying that a child could walk up to the treasure. I don’t think that’s an accurate quote because a three year old girl would have a problem without some help****. Remember, I was about 80 when I hid the chest, and had to make two trips.

      I really wish folks would stop using the three year old girl comment as fact for. ” a safe place – ‘easily accessed by’… a 3 year old girl ” or other such language. This was a comment from a searcher who misquoted fenn.

        • I don’t believe it is either… however it is connected. I think it’s more than likely many clues, no matter how you see them/count them/ list them, result in a single answer. I’m not look for clues… I’m looking the answers.

          • If you’re looking for answers, especially for where WWH, you should look where f told us to look, in his memories.
            IMO, that is the first clue. If you determine where WWH you can then use the poem as a set of directions.
            IMO of course.

          • And the beauty of the search is that out of maybe 65,000 searchers, there are probably 64,999 that all differ in one respect or another.

            For your sake, Seeker, I hope you find the ANSWERS you seek.


          • Eagle, You talk as if the book holds the answers to the clues in the poem… I’m fine with this line of thinking, if you can give a reason by way of example why that is…
            Fenn has never, that I have seen stated the book has the answers, only that the book will help with the clues by way of unintentional hints . Adding there’s a couple of hints and a couple of aberrations. Said the hint are not there to aid the searcher, said all the information to find the chest is in the poem… I would love to see how the poem can’t stand on it’s own or that the poem offers the reader to refer to the book.

            I’m all ears.

          • All IMO….
            Forrest said, ” all you need is the poem” and that is correct for 2 reasons.
            1) the poem is in the book.
            2) I believe the 1st stanza can be interpreted 2 ways.
            One, he’s describing the final resting place of the treasure, period.
            Secondly he’s pointing us to where he keeps his treasures bold, his memories, his memoir. He went alone in there because this is his autobiography told by himself where he divulges his secrets.he gives us hints and clues “not deliberately placed” to aid the searcher. I believe that’s what he said.
            So I believe the book is essential to solving the poem.

          • I have stated what imo stanz one does. Two things . (1) Tells us he hid a treasure. (2) gives us hints as to the big picture true area of where thru hints old and new ( f has stated memories are riches ) now thAt you k ow. Just read stanza one again .

  5. If you read poem from begining through where warm waters halt and dont have an exact spot, canasta is your game.

  6. Hi Seeker…I like your hypothesis. I wonder if I understand your thoughts correctly. Follow the CD and the RMs to the end of the range. I believe you are referring specifically to the Canadian border/boundary as the end of the range. Could your theory apply as well to the southern end of the CD/RMs north of Santa Fe?

    • SandyB

      Yes in part. I’m a multiple meanings guy. That is what give an author of a poem selections of word usages. In this theory the end means boundary and border… the semi in semicolon joins to related sentence AND act as an indicator to 1/2 the range. The Map in tftw had Canada [ accidentally we been told ] left out. This left 4 states involved with the “location” of the chest. so end at this point means border, in combination with hoB and the semicolon. Pieces that work through out the poem as one.

      If we recall comments from fenn; Many wwwh and “nearly all” are north of SF. as well as we didn’t now that the “mountains north of SF” we actually the Rockies to start. was there as reason fenn left this out of the book? Are we to understand what it is about the RM’s that may detail part of the poem? and what about the WWWH south of SF? What is it about the poem that can pertain to north and south of SF? I like my example of “no place for the meek” as the backbone of the Rockies to fit nicely in this reference to the Continental divide. The end of the Rockies is the location where one would consider the farthest point.

      I also consider fenn’s thoughts, when writing the poem as to 100, 1000, even 10,000 years down the road as, and why it would be hard to find the chest in the year 3009, Nothing last forever…[end] even the mountain range. I dare say it looked quite different then, as it does today and will in a few thousand years. While the poem seems related to the present… i think fenn considered his clues/words choices and usages for the future as well. Is this why he didn’t call the “mountains north of SF” by name to begin with? Less than 300 years ago the USA was just a twinkle in lady liberties eye. Geography is always changing. It’s difficult for some to read the poem as a whole… when breaking down the poem for information, one still needs to re-read as one unit.

    • Virginia;

      I am sure that you are aware that the first sentence of the second stanza reads.”Begin it where warm waters halt and take it in the canyon down, not far but too far to walk.” Seems to me that you can say, “Yes, Forrest actually says “Begin it where warm waters halt…”

      Just my opinion.


    • Is Forrest saying that the beginning of the search should be wwwh? Probably not. It is my belief that one sentence = one clue. IF that is true, we must begin at the first word of the poem, and end with the last word.

      Clues in Stanza #6 lead me to “in there” in stanza #1, and “in there” leads me to wwwh, so in a way, I start in Stanza #6… but that is just me.

      I am not “Messing with the poem. It is just that in my mind, the poem in a never-ending circle.


    • virginia – I agree. Maybe “Begin it where warm waters halt” is NOT the first clue. I believe “As I have gone alone in there” is the first clue. A few weeks after this interview I saw one night,…I was seeing FISH everywhere I went (including an annoying Fishaaay, Fishaaay McDonalds commercial),…and began to have a “tight focus” on potential fly fishing destinations where ff might have “gone alone”:

      From Dal’s here:

      On Thursday, February 28th Forrest appeared on the NBC Nightly News with Brian Williams. You can see that clip here:


      Then I happened upon the Slide Inn,…while looking for great fly fishing locations,…and potential places to stay in May/June. That is when I got HUGE chills,…when seeing a beautiful photo of the rocky entrance of a place where I thought ff did just that: where he MAY have “gone alone in there” for solitude,…to go fly fishing. I even wrote an imagined story about renting a jeep at West Yellowstone Airport to go there,…after flying in with my Dad (who was fighting Pancreatic Cancer at that time),…and emailed it to ff. I said I just couldn’t get that place out of my mind,…and I haven’t been able to since. And that began my more than three year journey here,…on The Chase. 🙂

  7. I had to read this a few times, and I admit that I don’t get where you are going with this attempt to solve. It’s like you are looking for a needle in a hay stack by shifting focus to the meaning of the haystack, along with it’s height a width. FF pointed to where tthe needle was in the clues, ‘In the water down there by my lamp’.
    We can’t find the needle by focusing on every straw of hay, and we can’t find the needle by looking at every stack between here and Canada.
    We adjust our focus by tracking where FF has been, and look for areas there that may fit the poem. That is still a big picture but it eliminates huge tracts of the rocky mountains. In the end it will be found in a place where we will say “Why didn’t I think of that?” Because it is a lot more simple than we are thinking.

    • Michael, Your still looking at the poem as many places one must travel. You seem to hope all you have to do is go here, go there, turn left, go up, go down and there’s the chest. How does this example not get you to a point, a very small area? An area that searcher might have been at but didn’t understand the significance of where they were and kept going. Like I said, I left out stanza 6 for a reason. But again this theory is about how the poem can lead one to the chest without destroying or ignoring most of the poem and use just 9 lines of a 24 line poem.

      Isn’t looking for WWWH as the first clue a needle in the hay stack? Where is the connection to the poem when we get to stanza 5 or 6? how do we explain… in the wood, If we supposedly already have the chest? what is the answers tired and weak?

      Could, using this theory and reading explain…” brave and in the wood” to possibly be No place for the meek and the saddle of a mountain pass as the place to be at?

      • My current theory is that the clues all describe the same area and specific spot. Except the first stanza tells us how he arrived there. So rather than visualizing the clues in a line, I see them as a funnel or vortex over a specific spot. In the water, down a canyon, which is below the home of Brown, etc. FF is standing there describing the scenery around him.
        Knowing his life, interests, and later clues can help us narrow it down.

  8. A nicely thought out big picture, now look at the little picture. And the KISS method takes two to keep it simple. Nine clues only when you understand the poem and if you end up with 10 how can you be wrong with an extra clue. When it’s all said and done the only question will be the one in the poem and its twin. Thanks for sharing Seeker, your unpopular solve is underrated.

  9. I’ve believed that the 9 sentences are the 9 clues, but there are a couple problems I’ve found with that belief. He’s made mention that stanza 2 sounds like 3 or 4 clues to him. Maybe he’s just playing us and says it “sounds” like 3 or 4 when it actually isn’t. Also, he said that a clue will get you closer and a hint won’t. He’s told us that some words can be discounted, but others can’t. So doesn’t that mean that certain words would need to be the “clues” rather then the entire sentence? If you take out a few words that can be discounted the sentence won’t make sense. I think I just confused myself between my thoughts and the keyboard.

    • Steph: its not that hard. the clues are to be found in nine sentences. There are over 100 words that will help you find the chest. FORGET LOOKING FOR NINE CLUES/PHRASES, that is a waste of time, and the wrong way to try to solve this puzzle.
      Why do you think he said ” a word that is key”? That word is in the poem. Not a sentence, not a clue/hint, not a phrase, but a WORD.

  10. Dal..

    I’ve said this many times… You can come up with a logical rationale for any location. The words in the poem are ambiguous and there is no correct answer that comes as a result of their direct, literal interpretation. Because of this, you must find another way. Fenn has alluded to this many times – The poem is a puzzle.

    I actually can prove this to some degree. I found something in the poem that I think would shock most folks… Mostly because it’s been missed for all these years. It’s possible others have found it as well and kept it quiet. IMO This thing is beyond interpretation or random chance, however it is the end of the solve and doesn’t imply the general location.

    As for the rules to unlock the puzzle….. don’t rule out more than one.

    I believe when Fenn says “-don’t mess with my poem” he means something else entirely.


    • Passenger, Well you said the P word.
      “I actually can prove this to some degree. I found something in the poem that I think would shock most folks…”

      Are you going to one of those who just says it or are you willing to back it up?

      • Hi Seeker… I think it’s too important of a clue to toss out there so I will keep it to myself for now. If I decide to give up the chase or Fenn makes a statement dismissing it… I will let it loose.

        What’s important is how to find it. I mentioned above that the poem is a puzzle and although not straightforward, aspects of it are literal.

        If anyone out there has found Fenn’s boat, email me & let’s see if we can put our heads together.


        • Good work passenger! I’ve got the helm, but dont think it’s to steer the boat, but rather a covering. Instead of TC being buried, there’s covering. The last lines of poem describe what to look for. Hope this helps. IMO

          • Hi John..

            The poem specifically says to use the boat. If it was simply a covering, wouldn’t someone eventually turn it over and discover the chest?


          • Sure, they would just have to find the right oval stone somewhere in the rockies! And hoping to uncover TC soon! IMO

      • Michael, That is the sentence that seems to indicate use the book… again, I’m a multiple meanings guy…
        If your brave [ brave means; to take on a challenge, and not so much fearless ] and in the wood [ referring to the book ] I give you title [ TTOTC ] to the gold.

        But I see this as geographical locations as well. Some searcher like to say layers when refer to the poem. I kinda agree, but It’s about the word usages and what a poem allows the writer… freedom to use those meanings for many things.

        I can even see the first part of this stanza as, read the book and all those failed [ cold ] effort will be worth it in the end. It’s not like I dismiss the book totally… but for me, I need the poem to tell me to do so[ that is all the tools we had been given to understand]. ” I wrote a poem containing nine clues that if followed precisely…” Follow doesn’t always mean literally walk behind… it simple could imply instructions. Which is what I attempted to do, Follow the big picture that leads to one place. He “wrote a poem”, NOT I wrote a book and a poem that will lead to the chest. So you see my dilemma to the use of the book… all the information to find the chest is in the poem

      • Michael – The word “title” to me refers to ownership. Of the bronze chest and its contents,…because it is on LAND that allows that. Maybe in my case on a sand bar or island in “your creek” (because Montana stream access laws SAY that is “your creek” IMO = “public land”). It might even signify and include “title” to the land the bronze chest rests upon,…with a quit claim deed or some such.

        But that whole explanation refers to the PLACE the bronze chest rests (IMO). Others have posted a great video interview with ff about that ownership.

  11. Seeker- I too have paid careful attention to all FF comments as I feel many contain valuable hints and information that narrow the otherwise enormous field. He may have pre-planned some of the hints, but I think some were offered to nudge those far off track back into the arena. Like Jake said, the first clue may be a general area. HOB could be the Canadian border. He did say that “the places the clues refer to…” suggesting that at least some of the nine clues are specific locations.

    • DWRock,
      “The clues did not exist when I was a kid but most of the places the clues refer to did. I think they might still exist in 100 years but the geography probably will change before we reach the next millennia. The Rocky mountains are still moving and associated physical changes will surely have an impact. If you are in the year 3,009 it will be more difficult for you to find the treasure.f”

      What is specific locations? Is it impossible that locations are connected as one in the same? The example I posted talks about the entire range as a single unit, if you will, yet those are separate, yet connected as a whole. the difference here is no real names are needed for fitting the poem [ with the exception of hoB, which is a symbol and not so much a name ] TN’s state wild animal is the racoon. This might have been called the home of the thief. But it’s not about the animal itself, but a geographical location.

      When folks say specific location, I immediately think of separate location along a journey [ for lack of a better word ] in which case the locations really have nothing to do with each other, other-than they might be in the same area. I think there’s more to he poem than the luck of the draw to finding the starting point and simple stepping from one location to another… and that is what most seem to be doing. It hasn’t work very well… and those who were at the clue[s] didn’t even know they were.

      • Seeker – May I say that this is one of the best discussions I have EVER seen here on Dal’s blog,…of the meaning of The Poem and of the Nine Clues? Thank you for your excellent insights. Forrest did say something about having a knowledge of geography,…and a good map,…would help.

        But the quotes I can’t seem to get around with your solve above are these:

        “show it to your kids, they’ll get it”

        “I wanted the monetary value to be a consideration for those who are looking for it, but mostly my motive was to get kids off the couch and away from their texting machines and out in the mountains.”

        I don’t see a “kid” coming up with your solve you posted above. But I LOVED it anyway! 🙂

        • “show it to your kids, they’ll get it”

          Show me the quote with those words… I have not seen or heard this as fenn’s words.

          Emmett misquoted fenn as to say it would be “easy” for a 3 year old to get to the chest… I provided, the quote that explained that was a misquote from a blogger/searcher.

          I do know of the comment that kids may have an advantage… that was in a video by Toby I believe.

          • Let me add to the kid / family thing… tell me approx. how many people our involved with the chase… 65,000? 100,000? Like fenn implied ~ the poem has done its job. {MW’s}

          • Seeker – I had the pleasure of conversing with Halogetter on another blog (not the one below),…and have found him to be a trusted source. I found a whole PAGE of The Chase references to that quote,…when I googled (“show it to your kids, they’ll get it” forrest fenn). Here’s Halo’s post I used for reference,…which has some good thoughts about “kids”:

            01-16-2015, 07:10 PM
            “Show it to your kids. They’ll get it.” I like the use of the word “get”.

            That’s one of the quotes, and there was another statement about kids having an advantage at one of his events in Santa Fe. And despite the fact that Forrest said “Don’t ask me to explain that”, I did put a question to him on Jenny Kile’s site. I did not expect an answer to my question, and he has not answered it, at least not yet.

            I never believed that Forrest was suggesting that a kid would be more likely to solve all the clues, and coordinate an entire solution. I always felt that he suggested showing it to a child because of either, or a combination of, a) they would have an imaginative and open-minded response without an adult’s conditioning, or b) the response to a particular part of the poem may be the result of something(s) that they are learning in their lives right now that is fresher in their minds than adults who are long past school.

            But, thinking logically, if a child was going to help you in such a way, they would ideally help you with the first clue, or the most critical one that is earliest in the sequence. They would need to help you begin it. Otherwise they wouldn’t be much help, unless you had the correct first or first few clues and the kids helped from there.

            Forrest has made a point of stating a number of times that you cannot solve the clues out of order, such as searching for a home of Brown without the preceding solutions. So, therefore, my question to Forrest on the Kile site pertained to whether a child was likely to be helpful in understanding where warm waters halt. The silence is deafening.


        • Dear E,i read your comment where mr.forrest said,the clues did not exist when he was a kid,of course we know that. Then he said, not quoting him exactly, but wasn’t it ,most of the places he went was.so as a kid growing up,they always went to Yellowstone every summer. Bozeman, Montana, etc.the areas he talks about .so would the treasure only be in these areas,they fished alot of areas we know . Madison, hebgen,nine hole,etc.these were special places to him.so would it also include the places he went when he got out of the air force.just trying to think here,as it seems it would be a tourists place,if a child could accidently find it.

          • virgina – Awesome thoughts! I agree completely. But the details for my original (and final) main solve,…which I emailed to ff in March/April 2013,…are located in the West Yellowstone vicinity. So I am biased. 🙂

            I gave him potential hidey holes there,…with GPS coordinates,…but never put BOG “in there” to verify them (YET!). So I cannot be the person(s) who were within 200ft. of the treasure.
            I continued to explore and give GPS coordinates for other Heart-Wise spots (like Sandy’s Ranch, Jake),…but didn’t put BOG there, either. But I did send him a great headshot of my Wise Owl blaze….which Donna M. got up close and personal with in Summer 2015. 🙂

          • virginia – And it’s not like ff was never invited to go on The Chase with anyone.

            I once emailed him to see if he would bring his One Horse (from his One Horse Land & Cattle Co.) and his Cute Burro (from pics he posted here of that animal in his bedroom),…to accompany ME,…a fine lady (who happens to be afraid of My Grizz),…to get to my spot “in the wood”.

            So much for chivalry….


            I read that that people on horseback are less likely to be attacked by Grizzlies. But I read a LOT about that kind of stuff…

          • virginia – Yep! Forrest was 14 (kind of a “kid”, right?),…and he was writing about Fran Warren:


            “As she moved from one slow song to another I just knew that she was a comely, brunet, teenager, with buttercup eyes, forlorn in love, and being mistreated by the whole world. I dreamed of riding a white horse adorned with colorful garlands as I charged through the night and swept her to safety. It was so romantic.”

            To see the painting,…just copy the whole link into your browser field and hit enter.

          • John waynes horses were duke,bay horse and his white one was named dollor.he used these 2 horses in most of his movies.i was looking up which state he made most of his movies in.i believe it was utah.but the colorado plateau is part of the rocky Mountains.i have been a busy little beaver.and look where all the colorado plateau is.

          • virginia – This is from a TV plot description,…but it confirms what you wrote about the Lady giving the Knight her ‘favor’:

            “The male lead is about to go off to fight and there is a very real possibility that he’ll be coming back in pieces. Knowing this, his female love interest decides it would be a good idea to hand him an object — some piece of jewelry, a trinket, a piece of clothing, a token of some sort — that she claims is of great personal importance to her. She makes him promise that he will give it back to her, thereby creating a small bit of assurance that he will return from the battle alive. He invariably will, if for no other reason than he promised he would return her ‘most prized possession.’…”

          • virginia – It looks like the Colorado Plateau covers all four states in the Four Corners region. Is the Colorado part in your backyard,…where you found those artifacts???

            And I didn’t know about that name “Dollor” of John Wayne’s white horse,…maybe ff can’t spell very good,…and he meant ’50 Dollors’ or ’50 White horses’ in this quote:

            “..for he who dies with over fifty dollers is a failure.”

            The Native American Plains tribes considered horses to be their measure of wealth,…especially the Comanche:


          • E.i’d love to go to the 4 corners region area,colorado plateau. That area speaks to me.of course so does the wet mountains . I’ve been to Westcliff. Awesome place for picture of san de cristo mountains panorama view.been to glenwood springs.one amazing canyon. Not searching for treasures tho had to pick up son in Westcliff when he rode,ride the rockies.and glenwood was for Ralph and I make some memories. His cancer has grown.they want to up his shot now.just finished a ct scan.now has to go 9th and 10th for a neuclear test.and we don’t know why the dr. Wants this test done.

          • Thank you . st . Anthonys called to talk to ralph.and i asked if the test were to see if there were cancers popped up elsewhere. He wasn’t allowed to give us the name of the part of the system in the body,they are looking at.oh well it’s in God’s hands.

  12. IMO Stanza 5 doesn’t have a TC clue, but is the linking stanza that makes the poem circular. Tired and Weak are poetry, not clues, so I’ll give you my take on those words…

    Tire….. the metal band on a wood wheel. It holds the wheel together, to resist shock, reduce wear, ease travel… originally made in sections. (Century Dictionary)

    Weak … a wheel without a tire … without dad, Skippy, Eric, etc.

    Was ff a ’Big Wheel’… or did he make people think he was? Is that the answer he knows?

    IMO Stanza 6 is the the starting place, & offers a grammar hint:
    Adverb: listen well = understand the meaning
    adjective: listen good = recognize the sounds

    I’m probably wrong, because IMO ‘leave my trove’ also refers to the pages of his memoir, the book. It could also mean trees dropping their leaves & covering the TC.

    • OS2,
      How can trove mean the book? Trove is a thing of value [ normally great value, and normally no ownership ] On the other-hand, treasures can be possessions and not so much of value. So why place these words where they are, when it would be easy to flip them around and the first stanza to read my trove bold, and leave my treasures for all to seek. I would like very much to flip flop them… but then, is that messing with the poem?

      Now stanza 5 as you said; ” doesn’t have a tc clue”
      this has been discussed before to the possibility that stanza 5 is the starting point… tired and weak to refer to as the medicine wheel. While some may say this is a clue and it would be out of order… I say it would be the place to start using the clues. I personally find it very strange that folks want to dismiss many words in the poem, nevertheless a full stanza.

      • Seeker – You wrote:

        “…I say it would be the place to start using the clues”

        So do you think ff’s “alone in there”,…is a “mecicine wheel” (like the Bighorn Medicine Wheel),…and that stanza 5’s “tired” and “weak” are a clarification of stanza 1’s “in there”?

        • It’s a possibility… you would have to read the poem as fenn giving clues, then telling where the clues “work”. In theory… stanza 1 2 3 4 give those clues, and has them in order.

          Stanza 5, in the form of a question, may tell us where we need to be. But there’s a catch… the WY wheel is not the only one. In fact there is a diagram of many wheels that make a circle [ large wheel ] that covers most of the western parts of the US, and lower Canada.

          Maybe this is why we need the ‘right’ map. and what detail is needed for that map?

          This type of thinking… that we must find the first “place” a “clue represents” may be a fault of our own.
          Maybe the clues are used on location and fenn later in the poem tells us that location, but we think of it as a filler or an ending or even a clue we can find because it not in order of with the other… It may not be a clue at all … but the answer to, know where to start.

          I’m not tying to change anyone’s mind. I’m opening up dialog for other possibilities. Could it be we are looking at a clue wrong by the way of not using it properly ~ forcing it to be a starting point, but we might have been told where we need to start later on in the poem?

  13. Ok, Seeker…I GOTTA put in my 2 cents here, you’re an amiable guy, so I know you won’t stomp my dreams!
    Ok. F said he built the poem, was an architect, or something like that. Imagine…each word used to decipher the poem is glued together with unimportant words, but we don’t know which ones to disregard. So, we use them all.
    (I hate saying the 9 lines) The nine clues could be a couple of lines each or one word. F wasn’t very partial to rules, so those commas, periods etc., might not mean diddly to him. When he said the second stanza sounded like it had more than a couple of clues, more like 3 or 4, I tend to believe it. I won’t go into what MY nine clues are, I’ve posted them before, and if no one cared to remember them, oh well.
    This poem is multi layer, the outside holds clues to the inside, which you need to get right to the keyhole. It takes the key word to open the poems meaning. I can’t say much more without giving away my work.
    This poem allows us to grow. I started with, “Ok, it’s Ojo Caliente, go down south in canyon, find the trout, walk up from there and look for a blaze.” Which was MY first solve, an hour after reading it. Now, I’m more technical with it. I realize it is written in layers, so to speak. What you SEE is the skeletal frame, dig further and you find the joints and support walls, then you see the final true direction you need to go. I know, “It’s straight forward.”, but to me, that means it’s straight forward as you plow through to the answer, one leads to the next, to the next etc. Each clue is a question that needs an answer. That answer needs to be interpretated, or deciphered, to give us location and directions.
    The lucky people who hit it within 200′ prob just guessed and were lucky. Were they avid Fenners like us, or read the poem and took off the next week, not even knowing zip about Fenn. They kept it simple, more than likely, but used logic and analyzed it just enough to tromp near it.
    My opinion I’ve just stated is more than a KISS method, but that’s how I think, others might jump right passed my analytical thinking to the answer, but I take the long route.
    So, in closing this dissertation, I agree with alot you expressed, Seeker, and see your train of thought pulling into my station.
    Keep your waders pulled up and your hooks sharp!
    ¥Peace ¥

    • Donna,
      I’m not really against 9 lines for nine clues, I’m no really against the book as usable, I’m not against alien eggs… wait … that one I do draw the line through. My point to his long explanation / theory of how the poem could be read, was to simple get others to give up there spot… I mean, to get other to join in a different view of the poem. My problem with 9 lines is the none use of more than 1/2 the poem, OR the use of the book without a reasonable deduction of why, when fenn has said; go back to the poem so many times. Fenn dedicated a lot of time and effort into the poem… how can any of it not be as important as 9 simple lines.

      Jamie wrote an interesting thought on how to see the poem, and others have as well… I have a few more myself. I personally would like to hear more on your ” This poem is multi layer, the outside holds clues to the inside, which you need to get right to the keyhole. ” As far as, the comment about stanza 2 having 3 or 4 clues… I still have to ask, how many clues does it take to get an answer? Allow me to explain “answer” that is whatever the clue or clues refer to. You may see 3 or 4 clues in stanza 2… but why do they have to be 3 or 4 answers? Can’t it be a single understanding… as in my explanation above. To limit one thought process as the only way to read the poem seems to me, that is setting up for a failure if it’s not the correct reading. It also discount a lot of words, which we have been told is unwise to do.

      I would like to hear more about your thoughts… sometimes it’s hard to keep up with so many threads, post, comments and replies, others may have missed a lot of your explanations. That’s one of the reason I wrote this… to help organize a different perspective other than counting clues and have it in one read.

  14. I sure wish we could click on a person’s name and see all the comments they have ever made. Would be so much easier to search through the history that way.

    • Go to the thread that you are interested in. Depress the F3
      key. A small box will appear bottom left corner – type in a name – arrow up or down to search that thread for entries made by your individual. Repeat for as many threads as you like.


  15. Seeker,

    Very good thought provoking post. I believe the answer that you seek lies within the response:

    In my opinion, the Continental Divide is not where warm waters halt, as waters do not halt they are fluid. Understand his response and answer its question. Listen good to that line in the poem, things we once thought to be crucial might not be so.

    You are correct in your assumption that Forrest choose a poem for a reason as poetic rhythm, rhyme and most importantly structure can mask ones true meaning. Do you really believe that Forrest is a lover of poetry just because he can recite and write it. Open your eyelids.

    “The greater part of knowledge is knowing those things not worthy of knowing”

    “Einstein was once asked how many feet are in a mile. Einstein’s reply was “I don’t know, why should I fill my brain with facts I can find in two minutes in any standard reference book?”

    Remove what you already know and what your left with is what is worthy of knowing.


    • liter81,
      “In my opinion, the Continental Divide is not where warm waters halt, as waters do not halt they are fluid.”

      I don’ use halt as stop. I use it as a temporary change in directions. I use warm as liquid, to a solid or a gas, so water[s] being plural for this theory would be any moving water… rain, snow melt, etc. So how is it the the CD is ‘not’ where warm waters halt… It’s actually works much better than looking for a single body of water over the now known 4 states.

      You said; “Listen good to that line in the poem, things we once thought to be crucial might not be so.”
      Would you come out and explain what it is you’re saying? What is it I’m “listening for”?
      I’m very open to discussion, but I’m gonna need more info for that.

  16. Hey Seeker, I don’t want to agree with someone here because they seem to be the smartest, Just that I believe they are right. The clues are the answers alla J.Jones has stated. Also, passenger is somewhat correct. But you have also been saying this for awhile, different ways to solve the poem. The angles, right J.

    You know my take on the whole thing, so it’s hard to say letter values, I’ll continue with the “constructional grammar” thought. If we take the poem for face value, line 20 says to hear me all. So we can figure that he is talking about the words, right? So, what does “listen good” mean? I say it’s the letters in those words. That’s why we do not mess with the poem.

    I believe the poem contains instructions. Words and letters. in,on,can,put,with,here,etc…and b,c,r,u for the letter instructions. Reading the poem letter by letter word for word answers your “I have” or “I’ve” question.If he uses I’ve, then we can see he did something. (Like gone alone somewhere). But he used “have”, meaning ownership/possession of something. I’ve already posted what I think, but it lays the foundation of looking for instructiions within the words.

    As far as the poem directing you to the book, that is line 16. “and go” IN “peace”. Put the words “and go” in the word “peace”. Simple enough. p-a-g-e-n-o-a-d-c-e.
    Leaves room for letter values there.

    I believe that reading the poem for face value to start is not the way to go. All that will open up in the end for most of the lines. But then I say read line 20 for it’s face value. That’s why there is so much confusion. It’s knowing when. It’s looking at all angles. It’s seeing he built something that needs instructions to assemble. And that is done by following his instructions. The clues are the answers.

    I think the first two clues are somewhat close to each other. That’s why the little girl thing, The other 7 are in a very small area. Since I believe he staged the area with a blaze and other things, makes me think directions, feet, distance, objects, etc… make up the last 7 clues. And for that I know you don’t see like I might, alpha/numeric values. Also, you’ve seen my blaze and the picture it makes when “mirrored” onto itself. I believe his “mirrors” are in his pictures. Some of those pictures have things that are in my “natural” pic. It’s hard to discount that area, for me anyway. You’ve said it many times before, are we reading the poem incorrectly? Since so many read it for it’s face value, is that the wrong approach? It appears so, it hasn’t worked yet.

    • charlie – When YOU write a post,…I “listen good”! Thank you for your thoughts. 🙂

      And you wrote:

      “Since so many read it for it’s face value, is that the wrong approach? It appears so, it hasn’t worked yet.”

      Because of my final solve location (where I have YET to search BOG),…that “face value” words usage was precious. 🙂

      • charlie – But sometimes,…especially to a “kid”,…ff just MIGHT mean THE EARS that go size proportionately with the “face” near my spot. When you wrote this,…I giggled like a child would again:

        “If we take the poem for face value, line 20 says to hear me all. So we can figure that he is talking about the words, right? So, what does “listen good” mean?”


          • JD – Maybe. Maybe not. I read Seamus Heaney’s translation of “Beowulf” (because of ff’s alligator’s name):


            “Conventional renderings of hwæt, the first word of the poem, tend towards the archaic literary, with ‘lo’, ‘hark’, ‘behold’, ‘attend’ and – more colloquially – ‘listen’ being some of the solutions offered previously. But in Hiberno-English Scullion-speak, the particle ‘so’ came naturally to the rescue, because in that idiom ‘so’ operates as an expression that obliterates all previous discourse and narrative, and at the same time functions as an exclamation calling for immediate attention. So, ‘so’ it was:

            So. The Spear-Danes in days gone by
            and the kings who ruled them had courage and greatness.
            We have heard of those princes’ heroic campaigns.”

            Where THE EARS are in my search area,…one would need to cross the creek,…to find a few more blazes to indicate my spot. That “So” in The Poem,…might just be a point of redirection within the search area,…and not a warning per se:

            “So hear me all and listen good,
            Your effort will be worth the cold”

            Once you reach The Ears,…you need to cross the creek. IMO.

    • A question for Charlie: you wrote, “Since I believe he staged the area with a blaze and other things, makes me think directions, feet, distance, objects, etc… make up the last 7 clues.” I see a small problem with this theory: longevity. What could Forrest do in staging an area that would last a decade, a century, a millennia? Stacking rocks, putting chips in tree bark, digging holes, arranging logs — none of these is lasting.

      • Hey Zap, only 13 days late, but just noticed. I agree, but with the comment of ‘someone in the year 3009″ comment, his longevity comments now have a, say, plausible denyability factor. I think there are coordinates, so the staging doesn’t matter. Only to the point of him creating a “path” to the chest. It’s not something that needs to weather the test of time because the coordinates do that. If I have the coordinates, I don’t need the blaze, WWWH, etc…

        He said something in line with the blaze can be destroyed, but not feasible. (That’s not the quote, I’m going from small memory). That is a non longevity statement, just goes to figure that the blaze would not stand the test of time.

        • So you are saying that Forrest has encrypted latitude and longitude coordinates into his poem? You aren’t the first to suggest this, but I think it’s pretty unlikely based on all of the things Forrest has said about his poem. If he hid clues to the treasure chest’s location within the structure of the poem, I think it’s more likely they will be of the Kit Williams Masquerade variety.

          • yes, somewhat. This might sound difficult but it’s not. I see three levels. The architecture being instructions in the words and letters. It’s very difficult to write 24 lines that all contain instructions unless you did it on purpose. From solving this way, you get level 1 or letter values. With the letter values, the poem opens up and you can get coordinates,(level2). And last, the path to the chest can be mapped out, (the 9 clues).

            Just feel there are numbers somewhere in the poem besides the word patterns. Also, most likely things will not stand the test of time, leaving coordinates most likely. From f’s statements. Rockies move, yada,yada,yada,etc…

  17. Once again from Seeker words that get the mind a thinking. I’ve heard this theory from you before or at lest some of it. The pros and cons to this type of thinking. First, the pros it helps one to open there eyes to a bigger picture one that’s most likely bigger than all of us. Is this the big picture were looking for, I’m not sure, but it does get us thinking about “the big picture”. Cons, it is just a rather larger general area of the Rockies and the CD that may not lead one to a specific location that one needs to find the chest. Now some other thoughts, so much about the CD, but nothing about its purpose. To channel water to an ocean or sea. That is its main purpose and that’s what it devides. So many Americans rely on the water from the CD to live, (things like this are taking for granted every day) water that fills wells and grows crops that feed a country, is that a bigger picture? Not sure if it’s the big picture for the poem but it is big. Lots of other thoughts, maybe for another time.

    • Count, that is all i’m attempting to do… bring in new thoughts. I have one for ISA lake that is a step by step, but I wanted to get an overall response to what I think is important as far as subtle hints from the book that help with the clues, attempt to line up after the fact comments fenn has relayed and use this information to help with a thought process of reading the poem.
      “My church is in the mountains and along the river bottoms where dreams and fantasies alike go to play”… I see this as hinting at the big picture effect. and you’re correct with the things you said about what the CD supplies all. I think this is a lead into why waters is plural… no specific one, but what the range does for everything, including affecting the climate, and used many years back as a passageway.

      You also said, it a general area and the CD may not lead specific location that one needs to find the chest. I should add here, and I thought I did in the post… there is more to his theory that bring it to a location. What has been said up to now, has one at the known end of the Rockies, on the CD… which means in NM. Its the Known exact end of the Rockies that is important here. And again not all has been explained. I still have to wonder why fenn didn’t say In the ‘Rocky Mountains’ North of SF. in the book. I truly don’t think fenn would leave it to chance that we would simply understand that. I think it was something we were to figure out and for a reason. But when fenn answered a Q&A about it… it seems many dismissed it as no biggy… It was more important to find a single location for wwh. But that didn’t seem to ring true to me when he said, a Comprehensive knowledge of geography “might” help.

      Was might meant as possibly help or was it meant as probably will help? I don’t see the after the facts as many do… I believe fenn is suggesting we need to think more. If I’m correct with the CD as part of the poem this Q&A kinda makes sense;
      “You have told people to stay at home unless they have solved the first clue.
      If you don’t know where you are going any trail will take you there.”

      Is this a clever response to any trail leads to the Continental Divide? keeping in mind he is answering a question about the solve. and now traveling from FL to NY.

      • Yeah Seeker you said,

        The northern most section of the range to the southern most section as well is called the rainbow arch. It represents the rising and setting of the sun crossing the divide.

        But this got me thinking east to west not north to south. I know just because the northern most of the Rockies are not on the TFTW map doesn’t mean the things described in the poem are on the map, just the chest(not all the truth kinda thing). Have you ever traveled the Rockies from northern most to southern most? I’m thinking not, but I can’t tell you how many times I’ve crossed it from east to west or vis versa, I’m guessing you’ve traveled them that way as well. Just like so many pioneers of the past, the Rockies or CD was one of there greatest conquest. And why didn’t Fenn say north of Santa Fe in the Rockies in the book? Like it was something we should of figured out. When I thought of it, I always pictured The Sangre de Cristo Mountains(mostly because that’s what I know). And once again the bigger picture you speak of includes the wind, the clouds, the rain, the snow, and the process that continues over and over and has since before we were here and will be going on long after we’re gone. This process also goes west to east starting in the Pacific and continuing on towards the east cost(Meteorology is a branch of geography). There are ways this idea could lead to a location and I’m interested in hearing what you came to, if your up for it?

  18. Seeker, I do believe the “3-4” clues lead you to the place you will be standing when you figure them out. It takes the paragraph to get there, so “YES!”, a multiple thought equals a single surmise.
    I’m on the Jamie team, her stats agree alot wirh mine.
    When I find the treasure, I’ll tell you how I built my solution!
    Now, about that alien egg…have you been playing with Desertphile?!
    And…can the base of the greater whole carry the weight of the mass, and can the answer to the top be found in the base?
    Drool over that for awhile, I KNOW you’ll get it!
    (I hear Forrest giggling…!)

    • Donna M. – You wrote:

      “And…can the base of the greater whole carry the weight of the mass, and can the answer to the top be found in the base?”

      I immediately thought of a pyramid,…which is what I think my hidey spot looks like. But I didn’t think a lot before posting this. Am I right?

      If so,…i don’t know what in the architecture of The Poem makes me right,…but a “kid” wouldn’t either. 🙂

      But I bet Jamie or charlie knows…..

        • Jamie and charlie – This quote might support Donna’s “3-4” clues comment above:

          “One might conjecture that the Egyptians hold in high honor the most beautiful of the triangles, since they liken the nature of the Universe most closely to it, as Plato in the Republic seems to have made use of it in formulating his figure of marriage. This triangle has its upright or three units, its base of four, and its hypetenuse of five. The upright may be likened to the male, the base it the female, and the hypotenuse to the child of both…” –- Plutarch**, Isis and Osiris [ From the English translation of Plutarch’s work by Frank Cole Babbitt as printed in pp1.191 of Vol. V of the Loeb Classical Library edition of the Moralia, published in 1936.]

        • Sacred Geometry, mirror to the soul of the pattern of all things in nature in which we find patterns, designs, etc… from the tiny to the universe. In relation to the poem, maybe the wording pattern of the entire poem in each stanza. The missing 33.

          Yes, I know you are joking, I’m just playing…

          • charlie – Uh,…Dan Brown (hoB?),…the “Da Vinci Code” (2003),…and “The Lost Symbol” (2009),…I found LOTS of good ideas in those books for The Poem. Maybe ff did too:


            Put in below Philips Exeter Academy…Hmmmmmm. 😉

          • charlie – I mean,…you did find the root word of “Sangreal” in The Poem,…didn’t you? 😉


            “For a soundscape that was religious to the core, Zimmer used a massive orchestra and chorus to create a dramatic ‘stained glass cathedral’ feeling. While the score has more in common with Zimmer’s previous work for Hannibal, there is also a solid mixture of the motifs used for The Thin Red Line and Batman Begins. The thirteenth cue, “Chevaliers de Sangreal”, is the most bombastic; powerfully underscoring the ‘discovery’ scene in the film.”

            Where is Robert Langdon when I need him? 😉

          • charlie – Yep! Philips Exeter Academy (hoB?),…where learning happens around a table,…which kinda reminds me of this great discussion we’re having right here on Dal’s blog!:


            What is Harkness?

            You could say it’s a table, oval, with enough room to seat 12 students and a teacher…

            It’s a way of learning: everyone comes to class prepared to share, discuss, and discover, whether the subject is a novel by William Faulkner or atomic and molecular structure. There are no lectures.

            It’s a way of being: interacting with other minds, listening carefully, speaking respectfully, accepting new ideas and questioning old ones, using new knowledge, and enjoying the richness of human interaction. You see the Harkness philosophy played out on our dorms, in our theater productions, on our playing fields. It’s fun, it’s exhilarating, it’s the way to be”.

  19. All of what I write below is my opinion. I could be wrong.

    Lots to ponder. First, seeker says: “9 clues equal 9 lines”, and other posters agree. I disagree. There are 24 lines, in my opinion; there are 9 sentences. So I assume that what you, seeker, mean is that each sentence has 1 clue. That’s been discussed before. One could argue that “sentence” equals “line”. But with such a vague poem, it would be helpful if we could all agree on basic definitions.

    Second, I have never been one to put much stock in the book as a source for clues. You can read almost anything in those books to be a clue. Doing so after a solution has been arrived at is called “confirmation bias”, and it is a serious problem in the field of logic. How are we supposed to know which word, sentence, page, illustration, picture, doodle, or combination thereof in the book is a clue? Answer >>> we don’t, so why even try. Ditto the SBs. They’re all distractions.

    Third, the fact that the chest has not been found implies that conventional thinking isn’t working. So the best approach is to disregard what the majority of posters say, and strike out in an imaginative manner. It’s for this reason, among many others, that I ruled out YNP after just a week of learning about this chase. That YNP still is a favorite place to search after all these years is a testament to the failure of conventional thinking. It’s also a testament to the herd mentality.

    Also in my opinion, the way to solve the puzzle is to study the poem … only. No browsing through books looking for arcane knowledge that functions as confirmation bias for some preferred solution. Ditto, no Google Earth (not every searcher may have access to the internet, a point that most posters blow off). But a good USGS topo map I find helpful (at the 7.5 min scale). The map and the poem, that’s it. And the rest is up to me.

    Seeker, I would suggest that you ditch all the ancillary material and focus entirely on the poem + a hard-copy map. Skip past the popular solutions, especially YNP. Skip past the obvious meanings of some words in the poem. Be inventive with word definitions and phrase sequencing. Be open to the possibility that there are hints in the poem independent of the 9 directional clues. Also be open to the idea that there may be multiple correct “routes” (poem interpretations) to the chest, not just one.

    I realize you almost certainly will do nothing of the kind. But you did ask. And I stand by my philosophy of relying entirely on the poem, and creating interesting connections between the 24 (not 9) lines and phrases therein. As to how many clues there are? Who cares. If my solution is consistent with all that we already know about FF and if my solution seems logical and nonconforming, then I’m satisfied with it.

    Ken (in Texas)

    • Ken – from one Texan to another……….

      I agree the poem should lead you to the end prize. But, not to take advantage of what has been offered by Fenn in the way of a book, clues and scrapbooks could be disastrous.

      I do believe just the poem will get one to the general area – but not to the precise spot. To wander around in the forest, looking under rocks or ledges, is pure folly. I have yet to see anyone use real coordinates. I truly believe that from the very first thought of hiding the treasure, Fenn always knew he would write a book – so to not use it is just plain stupid. There is a very valid reason I think that the timing of the book was rushed – and therefore important.

      • I disagree with your premise; namely, that the poem will not lead to the precise spot.

        And by precise spot, I mean a reasonably size search area that one can thoroughly search in a couple of hours.

        The “general area” (say 5 by 5 square miles) isn’t good enough. Contained within the poem are the clues necessary to get to this searchable area, in my opinion.

        Again, as I stated above, posters assume that everyone agrees on the definitions. Which they do not, apparently.

    • Ken. you stated; seeker says: “9 clues equal 9 lines”, and other posters agree. I disagree. There are 24 lines, in my opinion; there are 9 sentences. So I assume that what you, seeker, mean is that each sentence has 1 clue.

      Kinda ~ sorta… I gave an explanation the best I could in a response to Colokid below. The 9 thing, is a tricky one as to fenn calls everything a clue. One of my examples from the past was this riddle… what’s black and white and red all over. You may see 3 clues as Black, white and red all over. But there are really four clues. Back and white are not colors so that gives pause to red, which actually is read, and all over is not something covered but is something done. which reveals an answer of, a newspaper.

      Can the clues in the poem be read similar as 3 or 4 clues gives a location / place / reference to something, and that is the true clue?

  20. “The important thing is not to stop questioning; curiosity has its own reason for existing.” – Albert Einstein

    IMO this is the best blog to keep asking questions and sharing ideas.

    • 23kachinas – I agree. 🙂

      “Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds. The mediocre mind is incapable of understanding the man who refuses to bow blindly to conventional prejudices and chooses instead to express his opinions courageously and honestly.” – Albert Einstein

      Kudos to Seeker for expressing these opinions to start this great discussion,…here at Dal’s AWESOME blog!

  21. Seeker,

    Love the abstract thinking…keep it up.

    Here’s a few observations on things that have been said here.

    I’m a little surprised at how many people don’t think it’s important to consider that there are nine clues in the poem. People are saying that “this reading doesn’t count clues”, “As to how many clues there are? Who cares?”, etc.
    But of all the things we don’t know for sure, hasn’t Forrest repeatedly beat into us that there are 9 clues, and that “if followed precisely, will lead to the end of his rainbow and the treasure.’ “? So Forrest counted clues and it’s a specific number…9. He could have been vague and said a few, or several like he does with other things but he tells us exactly 9. Shouldn’t that be important to everyone? I can’t think of a single interview where he didn’t take the opportunity to drive that home. Nine clues….this should be the one piece of information that we can take to the bank.

    Ken said: “the fact that the chest has not been found implies that conventional thinking isn’t working.”

    Well, yes and no, IMO. The 9 clues=nine places idea is perhaps too conventional. So, overall, yes…no one has the chest but we have been told that perhaps several people or groups have solved two clues and maybe some have even gotten 4. So what’s more likely….that more than one person came up with the same complex multi-layered solution like Seekers (no offense meant) or that more than one person came up with a more conventional solve for the first couple of clues? Something to think about I think. I’m not saying conventional=literal though. Did two people stumble on the same simple twist to get the same two clues? Read on…

    Passenger said: “I’ve said this many times… You can come up with a logical rationale for any location. The words in the poem are ambiguous and there is no correct answer that comes as a result of their direct, literal interpretation. Because of this, you must find another way. “

    I agree with this part of what you said 100%. Literal probably isn’t going to solve the riddle. There must be a clever way that F disguised the information we seek within the words of the poem.

    Fenn said, Richard Eeds radio interview 9/14/15, http://s3.amazonaws.com/sfdc_podcasts/the_richard_eeds_show_forrest_fenn_091415.mp3
    Minute: 35:30 Host: It’s going to take some long, concerted research and effort.
    Forrest: “…well it doesn’t take…you just have to THINK THE RIGHT THINGS. The clues are in the poem, and if you can figure the clues out, they will take you to the treasure chest.”

    The slight hesitation in his delivery here makes it seem like he is de-emphasizing “long, concerted research” and putting the emphasis on “Thinking the right things”… is there a twist?….is this thought process we’re missing? And perhaps there’s more than one twist as the poem proceeds. Perhaps one has to be able to adjust to more than one line of thinking as the path unravels?

    • colokid,
      I have considered that 9 clues equal the poem as a whole. That is not to say a single line can’t be a single clue… I just can’t adhere to the line lines only system that seems to be the popular choice. That’s doesn’t make sense to fenn saying ‘don’t discount’ words [ you know the quote as well as most ]. I’m also a big believer that the poem tells us how to read it… whether that is the word that is key or indicator in the poem, or analyzing the crap out of the poem etc. is yet to be determined. The use of 9 lines for nine places is forcing us to look at what may not be a place, but still be a clue [ you and I have discussed this before, but i think it needs to be reopened for discussions ].

      The attempt her in this theory was to go as simple as possible, still using common sense, and without force fitting by moving letters of words to another word, find codes, adding religion, research all the unknowns that were not indicated by the book as helpful. I never read the book for 2 years in fear of flooding my mind with a 147 pages of information. but that doesn’t eliminate the fact of hints not deliberate place to could help with the clues… just not every word or page. Fenn said there are hints in the book if you can recognize them, but that seems to say you need to understand the poem somewhat to see this ‘couple’ of hints.

      The clues are stated as nine in the form of… “the poem contains 9 clues.” To think that there is an exact number of lines that are needed, seems to eliminate three stanzas. Where as looking at the entire poem as 9 sentence may be a clever way of saying… each sentences has needed clues. So yes, one needs to ask how many clues does it take to get the point across for that important piece of information?

      The comment that there sounds like 3 or 4 clues in stanza 2 and the other comment about the last two lines in stanza 3 as a two more, can be read as either a clue is a single entity, place or answer OR there are 3 clues in one sentences and one clue in the other, but only reveals a single reference.
      Example; engine, tranny, rear-end, body are all clues that reveal an automobile or a single clue overall clue. Some may look at the engine etc. as hint… but I think fenn never wants to use the word hint [ in reference to the poem]… why?… clues sounds more important, and he doesn’t want to decipher the difference between a clue to a hint, because that basically tells us how to read the poem. Every thing to fenn is a clue… the Useless clue debate seem to tell us that [ at least for me] Why is not in an outhouse a clue? By fens own words a clue gets you closer to the chest a hint helps with the clues… Not in an outhouse a clue?

      So is reading stanza 2 as a full set of clues that reveals what it refers to [ like the automobile example ] the wrong approach?
      what this does is, it uses the entire poem as clues and all contained in 9 sentences… This, is why I think the poem is difficult to understand… My example for how fenn may have achieved this is in SB 124… how he explained the picture of him and the fish was taken. It’s not what I said, it’s what I can make you think I said… line of thinking. I these after the facts to make points of possibilities, those WhatIF thoughts fenn may be implying. I don’t use them as clue finders or hints… simple subtle pieces of information that makes me think.

      Sorry for the long draw out response… it can get difficult at times to explain a thought process with example of 5.5 years of information that fenn has suggested throughout those years.

      Ken and Inthechase, I hope this response to colokid, give your post the same.

      • Seeker, you’re still using the term “line”. Please define your terms. Do you mean “sentence”. Do the 9 clues relate to “lines” or “sentence”? I’m still trying to figure out how you define your terms.

        • Line example: begin it where warm waters halt.
          This is the most used line as being the first clue by most bloggers. A line thought process doesn’t use a sentence as a whole. it breaks up the sentence and forces each line to be one clue.

          For me, a sentence can hold more than one clue that relate to what we need to know of or reference to what it is. I’m suggesting that stanza one [ as we have been told ] sounds like 3 or 4 clues… my thought is; this stanza might be a single answer or important piece of information as a whole and not broken down.

          Does that make sense…? I know its important to understand this or otherwise the theory will not make any sense.

          • So if I understand you correctly, you use only nine (9) lines out of 24, and yet Forrest has said that almost every word is important and to skip any at your peril…or words to that effect. You must love risk.

            Just a thought.


          • “9 clues equal 9 lines and we all know that WWWH is the one and only first clue, which leaves take it in the canyon down to be clue two…etc. Well, I’m not buying what y’all are selling.”

            What part of I’m not buying what y’all are selling was confusing?

            The whole theory doesn’t talk about 9 line, but all of the poem containing clues. And i think I know what was stated by fenn regarding the “every word” comment… I’ve plastered it up enough times in correcting others, I know it by heart. Check out more important info… Seeker’s recap.

          • Good Grief Seeker –

            Why, oh why, do you have to make it sooo complicated. I don’t know if you heard me say before – I don’t believe in counting clues until the very end – cuz
            only then will you know what they are. To get to the end – you have to have a viable start and everything in between. A little faith is needed too…………..all IMHO.

            IMO trying to solve the poem in the manner you are writing about will never work.

      • Seeker,
        I think that I have a good idea of how you use the entire poem and I know you don’t subscribe to the 9 lines, 9 clues concept….you’re using a deep read of the whole thing. But I don’t think that precludes you from ending up with 9 clues (or pieces of info if you prefer) that would rise to the level of “9 clues”.

        I’m not really arguing as to how the poem gets divided up for clues (lines, sentences, or groupings there of). Everyone has their own preferred method.

        But suppose you went to Forrest and presented your complete solution. Don’t you think he would expect a searcher to present him with an explanation of what they thought were the “nine clues”?

        I’m just saying that if I was Forrest, and I repeatedly told everyone there were 9 clues, the first thing I would ask a searcher is “What did you use for the nine clues”?

        Again, just saying I think the end result, no matter how you get there, has got to be 9 “things” (clues, information, places, hints, whatever) that take you to the chest.

        • Arguing is simply presenting your information for debate… So I like a good argument. Fighting on the other hand only has one winner… the one who can yell the loudest for the longest of time.
          lol… I’ve been known to use that method as well… You know I appreciate critical feed back. But what surprises me the most so far is none has asked about what you just mentioned [ thanks for that ] The first two clues comment.

          This brings me back to what fenn calls clues. He mentions hints in the book, mentions hints of riches new and old, yet calls everything a clue, Not in Idaho, etc. I have been working on the assumption that clues within in the poem are many … we can call then hints or clues of important information… the point is, does what the ‘poem’ refer to as places / locations. waypoints / information, etc. give out 9 references of needed information.

          I think the poem’s first two answers bring you to a location… in this theory, the end of the RM’s on the CD [ which is NM, but not needed ] I get there by simple knowledge of the watershed and words that indicated where to begin and where to get to. no matter how many clues we ‘think’ they are. and could it be possible that parts of that information and the two ending stanzas hold the next steps of instructions, no matter how many clues we “think” they are.

          So I hypothetically, I send this to fenn and he hypothetically says you have the first two clues correct. How would I know what they truly are? maybe all I did have is the last two points correct. or better yet the only clues I have that are correct is NM and the Rockies…. we don’t know what fenn is referring to as the first two clues or where in those solves those searcher mentioned them.

          As I have gone alone … TX? lone star state, MT? treasure state, WY because of why I must go?
          waters halt, a river, lake, hot spring… the debate on what comes first and who’s on second or the know where to start is truly still not known… In all my attempts to solve this poem, the one thing that eats at me most is, the comment on “why didn’t I think of that before” Is this about how simplistic the poem will end after all the struggling to understand it or the WhatIF’s fenn mentioned to think about?

          Another comment is; why little Indy or anyone else “can not get closer” than the first two clues… maybe at the first two clues location [ no matter how many clues “we think” are involved, we are as close as we can get to the chest, and the remaining information precisely places us on top of it. possibly 200′ or 500′ from fenn’s first two clues. This is why I asked this theory to be posted for discussions, Are we wasting time trying to know what we ‘think’ a clue is and ignore the poem? Just like fenn said… he didn’t “count clues” until he finished… maybe we need to do the same.

          • exactly, we need to do the same. Solve the poem, however you do it, the path will reveal itself.

            Like a puzzle of a blue sky with no straight edged pieces. All the pieces would need to be used to get the picture. You cannot just put a piece aside and say it will go into a certain spot later. There is no way to know. If there are 9 sections of this puzzle, each section will consist of pieces to that section. Some sections may be 2 pieces, some 4. It’s when you are done you can look back and say, started here, then went here, etc…But, sence it all moves inline, that would mean that the last clue would be in the last line. You couldn’t get 9 clues in say 16 lines of the poem because that would leave you with extra pieces, and an incomplete picture.

            I agree with colo on this one. With this picture example, after it was complete, I can then tell him my 9 sections and show how I put it all together. And, like he said, it is up to the individual to come up with their own way of dividing up those pieces.Words, a line, entire sentence, whatever, as long as you use all the pieces. And that would put the last clue somewhere in the last line.

          • All be darned Charlie I thought you had it………….

            until you said – Some sections may be 2 pieces, some 4.

            All sections are equal………..if you started in the right place – you know how many. continue that section until you are finished – then go on to the next – in total there are nine things to do – with those sections – which will be found along the way. That’s why I kept saying I was done – but I wasn’t. 2 yrs solid work.

          • Chase, I meant a section is the same as a clue. Since 9 clues does not divide into 24, then some would have more pieces than the other. But all the same, all must be solved in order to get the full picture.

            I think, only after you solve the entire poem can you depict what a clue is considered. Along the path, those clues can be followed. Whether it is a direction, distance, object, or place.

            If you think about it, the first two clues must be places. Anyone can point them out on a map. The third must be a “boots-on-the-ground” thing. And, since someone may have the forth clue, then someone has been in that area and knows it. Just didn’t put it all together then. That would also mean someone probably sent f a picture of a certain spot. That person has a big headstart now. They obviously know how to read the poem, they would have figured it out by now. Time is ticking…

          • Seeker: playing catch-up on what has become a very lengthy set of replies to your offering (so I would say by that measure your topic has been very successful!) First thing I wanted to comment on: you brought up the “why didn’t I think of that before” sort of Eureka moment that you probably feel you have been missing. It took me over a year to have that head-smacking moment, and it really is a Homer Simpson “Doh!” To help nudge you in the right direction, you have the right idea about it not being a simple dot on a map. You do need to see the big picture — just not quite so big as the Continental Divide. And it is something a child might be more likely to guess than an adult, since her mind wouldn’t be quite so cluttered with a lifetime’s worth of facts and figures and “knowlege”.

  22. First of all I would like to say I really hate to hear Forrest gets harassed in anyway, shape or form. All seekers should stay away from his family…not cool! I’m a poor, poor, man…I can say that and laugh. I would like to offer my help so even if i don’t recover the treasure, maybe someone else or a group of people. Never had money so…..I THINK I have all the clues accounted for and it is after I have been to the area where the resolve kicks in…so here is what I am going to offer to even the playing field…You can solve a great deal of the clues from your seat at your home…When you go into this place you have to go to two points…the first point directs you to the second….there are two key clues in the book that will match the locations needed….finally one of the key clues is within this blog!!!!!

    I’m heading back out in two weeks….beat me there or meet me there..good luck!

    PS Even if you know the exact location, it is still a challenge to find!

    • Missouri Jon…… well said, would like to meet you there but not leaving till mid Sept. Something you said is aligned with my solve. Does your second clue qualify your first clue?Do you need your first clue to interpret your second clue,so to speak?

      • You don’t need it but it helps to validate the location for sure….I’ve been to the location but did not realize that was it…I was lost! Now I am familiar with the area pretty good….I’m just gathering a good game plan and when I can break free, I will return. Walking every day and need good shoes….

        • Without saying to much–I think were on the same page. I won’t wish you good luck because luck will have nothing to do with it !! I wish you success with your game plan.Be safe, don’t wear out them shoes Rick

  23. Seeker and E*- I lost the thread up there but as far things stacked for the base to support them, sacred geometry of connections, and a child being able to understand….I can only offer the following , which maybe only children understand anymore anyhow…

    “Mares eat oats, and does eat oats, and little lambs eat ivy.
    A kid’ll eat ivy too.
    Wouldn’t you, wouldn’t you….”

    I don’t know who wrote it as it’s very old and my memory is more kinesthetic, but it wasn’t me…somehow in mess of a mind it seems to apply here as analogous to how the clues are the answers. I’m sorry if it just comes out like a jumble of incoherent thought….I’m not great with words but I am certainly trying to express something meaningful wether well received or not. Lol. Maybe F would laugh at the song…I’d love to know if he sung it as a boy just cause it would make me smile.

    • To further explain my thoughts before those that don’t understand me dive into what a moron I am….I’m going to go.oit on a lime and explain how I got to F liking using this logic. He dedicates a chapter of the book to telling how his family listened to your hit parade and he could always name the number one song. That’s one of the only thing s in the book he was great at. When I read the book I researched every single thing because I cared. In ,’43/’44 topped the charts? You guessed it…..and to me F was probably just old enough to be encountering his first magical fascination with words and books and stuff. Not only was it the chart topper, but kids were forced to learn about word games. I bet that’s one time his awareness took a giant leap. Please don’t expect me to spell everything out all the time, as you can see it takes up more space to.explain myself than many care to hear so I generally refrain….but this is an exception so you know it’s not just nonsense I try to express….I also don’t like to.give away me whole farm at once usually. It makes me feel a little naked. Haha
      Anyhow I think this is when F learned word play, I think it’s one.of his greatest childhood memories, amd I think things like dinner, and desserts. And radio programs are the memories that trigger even in a forgotten mind. Kinesthetically. Even if you don’t have details or.words…you can “feel” the memory.i think the chest is hidden in that feeling too. I could be one million percent wrong and probably am….but thats just how I think
      ad you asked so.its your fault the floodgates opened

      To quote wikipedia:

      “Mairzy Doats” is a novelty song composed in 1943, by Milton Drake, Al Hoffman and Jerry Livingston. It was first played on radio station WOR, New York, by Al Trace and his Silly Symphonists. The song made the pop charts several times, with a version by the Merry Macs reaching No. 1 in March 1944. The song was also a number one sheet music seller, with sales of over 450,000 within the first three weeks of release.[1]

      The song’s refrain, as written on the sheet music, seems meaningless:

      Mairzy doats and dozy doats and liddle lamzy divey
      A kiddley divey too, Wouldn’t you”
      However, the lyrics of the bridge provide a clue:

      If the words sound queer and funny to your ear, a little bit jumbled and jivey,
      Sing “Mares eat oats and does eat oats and little lambs eat ivy.”
      This hint allows the ear to translate the final line as “[a] kid’ll eat ivy, too, wouldn’t you?”

      • Jonsey… I’m with you. I have a Mairzy Doats for every line in the poem that requires it.

        IMO There are other rules however. Fenn made sure that the one odd talent or one perspective would not solve this thing. The jack off all trades will be the victor.

        if folks really want this thing…. folks with like minds will team up. We see very little of this as fear and greed whisper from shoulders. Friends and family are half-hearted or think we’re nuts.


        • I 100% agree. I used.that as an example of how the answers are in the poem not.the questions. Like in the song the refrain explains how read the first line. I don’t think.the clues are arranged like the same word play in F’s poem..just that the answer is already in the poem. No.need to solve it. You gotta find the question. Like the refrain says “if the words don’t jive say this”….I think the clues are the answers not.the questions. But no, not the same way that song jumbles stuff.

  24. jonsey1, I like that….a lot!

    BTW…..Have found something about Forrest being connected with Cerrilos, NM and a small town in Florida as well.


    • Sounds like you’ve been reading something that’s MINE 😉 be careful….you’ll be on the Appalachian trail before you know it. It’s nail and tooth. But not in that order. Lol.

      • Also I don’t know the exact quote, but in the above post it says F said there are no short cuts. I can’t stop laughing.could someone PLEASE as him if there are any cold cuts?…on his sandwich, of course….bet he’s just licking his chops at the ‘big picture’. Probably based the whole chase off a single sacred lunch meet. I can feel it in my bones,…just gotta lay it.out on the table in case anyone can offer me some crumbs of wisdom. Somethings guiding me for sure.

        • And I’m not talking turkey either…or chicken…..something rare. And red. Or pink. Pink lunch meat. Has he ever talked about Bologna or ham or any other pink lunch meat?

          • Hey Jonsey,

            Don’t you remember?…A bologna sandwich with mustard, pickles, and horse radish and sipping apple juice…Once when he was talking about having lunch in SF with two guys who I think were two brothers and were searching…Must have been a couple of years or so back…

            I used it in the story “A Scenario” on CC long time ago…


          • Hello samsmith. I’m glad you posted the sandwich. I thought I was the only one who like bologna sandwich with mustard and sliced pickles on top. Never had horseradish. Sounds like a sandwich with an added kick.

            I, as well as, SL are curious to see where you’re heading with your thoughts, jonsey1. The only thing I can think of is “process(ed),” but again, not able to make a connection just yet.

  25. For the love of good…will somebody that talk to F PLEASE as him his favorite cold cuts? Or his favorite lunch meet? And if he says Braunschweiger tell him that doesn’t count…it’s a spread. I’ll shut up now, but please ask if anyone can. I don’t ask for much….

  26. Jonsey1, hmmmm, I need a good comeback…wait, “it is better to give, than to receive”….pllleeeaaassseee reveal the map. You have me on pins and needles.

    • Well, the first map this little girl in India showed me…but it was of the Appalachians. I have no idea why anyone would even unfold it, let alone.revise it for 15+ years. It is beyond BEYOND my realm of things I can fathom even still existing. Maybe some…form of io.u. or something?….I can’t quite place it, but I can put my finger on it and I need to know what kind of could cuts he likes. If I can tie the meat to the meet and the maize to the maze I can explain coherently. Until.then it’s hearsay and I’ll just end up.annoyimg trying to explain….but seeker is DEFINITELY on to something here IMHO.

      • I will say the poem IS the map…or moreso he’s describing a map/portion there of. Forget the words, forget the places, imagine just a jumble of lines that someone drew and someone else had to narrate which to follow. Like a kid that didn’t know how to write drew it….and F just immortalized the way through the maze in his poem. Who knows. Maybe he drew it himself as a kid 🙂 just wrote the directions as a grown up. The cold cuts will explain it if someone would just ask him I really really hope 🙂

    • I’m going with “large hare” and map on page #133. But no one wants to go down that road with me…unless it’s you.

    • A backwards bike is A ride that turns cold, something smells fishy in a sandwich so bold, you are a friend like a friend of old, just like two pinkies hooked with a hold. Just playing, back to my shell now.

      • strawshadow – Is that “A ride” a Golden Triangle?:


        “The Greek letter phi ( φ {\displaystyle \varphi } \varphi or ϕ {\displaystyle \phi } \phi ) represents the golden ratio.”

        In modern Greek, it represents a voiceless labiodental fricative ([f]) and is correspondingly romanized as “f”.

        I can see the “shell” in that image. It reminded me of ff circling the runway,…maybe looking at my solve’s “blaze”,…while landing at West Yellowstone Airport.

        So maybe ff rode a “backwards bike” (in his teens in West Yellowstone,…going back in time) from my/Dal’s WWWH,…with his fly fishing GEAR,…to my hoB (fishing at special spots along the way). He could have left the bike at the trail head,…and hiked a “few miles” to fish again at my hidey spot,…then hiked back to his bike to ride home to West Yellowstone.

        JD – If ff had this E-bike,…he could have ridden it the WHOLE WAY,…from WWWH to the Gold, IMO:


        • JD – A response to an email ff received with suggestions for his “final hour”:

          Forrest responds-

          I am a very simple person and you want me to have copious meetings with lawyers, preachers, undertakers and your family. What is wrong with me just riding my bike out there and throwing it in the “water high” when I am through with it? You don’t know how many man hours I have spent on that subject. Thanks for the input but I think you should mobilize your club and hit the trail searching for the wondrous treasure. Besides, I’ll probably get hit by a train. When you find the treasure please come sell me the great turquoise and silver bracelet that is in the chest. I wish now that I had kept it. f

          If ff threw that E-bike in the “water high”,…I’m goin’ in after it!!! 🙂

          • The half mile trail that I follow to get NEAR the hidey spot is used by horses and mules and people. A mountain bike would be able to make it, and yes, Forrest could throw the bike in my stream if he chose to…or even off of a nearby bridge, and watch it bounce off of a couple of ledges that are a part of a waterfall, and the bike would land, all messed up, fairly near where the TC lies – or so I think.

            All just opinions of an old geezer with only two operating brain cells – Oh I forgot, I lost one of them a couple of days ago – only one operating brain cell.

            Good luck to all and STAY SAFE


          • AW sucks JD –

            I thought you had it – but you just ruined that idea for me.

            I’m not saying a human trail is not involved – but I am saying the TC is not anywhere near a human trail and you could not ride a bike.

            You could be right………………When is your next trip?

          • Never read that FF comment before. “throw it in the water high ” made me auto think- “clouds”…..hmmm!

          • inthechaseto – In my “Forrest’s Plan B” solve,…the one where he had “done it tired and now I’m weak”,…he could have ridden his motorized and powerful E-bike to the Day Use Area from my WWWH (about 33 miles) used a stashed canoe or small fly fishing float tube lunched just below the Day Area (where Donna M. “put in”),…and hid the bronze chest “below” and behind my “Wise Blaze” glacial erratic across the Madison (his body would have been out of sight there, also). He could have thrown that E-bike into that VERY DEEP hole where Bob Jacklin caught the 10lb Brown Trout,…and no one would find it. Then there would be no trace of where he was. People would find the canoe or float tube WAY down the Madison, IMO,…maybe as far as Quake Lake. The perfect disappearance. Fly fishermen with waders on would float to the surface,…but ff didn’t need waders in this scenario.

  27. My wife tried to share some Mairzy Doats riddles with me and now my head hurts. Jonsey are you saying that you think the poem is a mairzy doats riddle/puzzle?

    • I don’t think the poem is a mairzy doat riddle puzzle. I do think that the poem contains clues that are answers not questions. I used mairzy doats just to explain the concept of backward thought. Answer to question not question to answer. Maybe it isn’t. I have no idea. Just thats how I see references in the book being ‘helpful’ to reading the poem, but not a requirement.

  28. I was think about this earlier, how can you ensure that something is going to be around in 1,000 years when ALL terrain changes over time? Rivers move, peaks errode, valleys fill.

    • If you found something that hadn’t moved in a million years you might have faith in another 10,000? Especially if you were a kid when you found it and could only draw a stupid map that grown ups couldn’t take you back to or follow so nobody believed you or went further than the only.two things you COULD explain in grown up words. Or not. Total random guess on the spot tangent.

    • gregorious,
      Doesn’t the theory presented show how something could be around for a 1000 years… I say could, because there are always unknown variables. One searcher asked me about the 1000 years down the road and what would happen to the clues and the chase if a huge meteor hit? My answer was,it didn’t matter the chase would be over if that happened.
      Nothing is concrete.
      And fenn told us it would be harder to find the chest in 3009 because the RM’s are still moving.

      However he also said; “I’m not flippant about this. It’s not something somebody is going to be able to do on spring break or a Sunday afternoon picnic. I’m looking a hundred years down the road, maybe a thousand years down the road. People don’t understand that.”

      So we know he had the thought on his mind when it came to this challenge. So like you said, rivers move, peaks erode, valleys fill, and I’ll add names change. So thinking alone these lines… how would you write out clues that might still be somewhat intact for 1000 years? what is better… 9 different locations or 9 reference to the same location?

          • The clues needing to hold up for 1,000 years. These or it need to be major landmarks in my not-so-humble-opinion…lol…I think when we are looking at locations or a location we should probably be thinking will this be around for the next 1,000 years. If a small gust of wind could blow it away then I think we need to go back to the drawing board. Think about how many places, areas, solves that eliminates.

          • gregorious,

            To attempt to eliminate areas would be just as hard to guess at a clue.

            Look at the Colorado river 10 years ago and look at it today. Water levels drop so bad the river doesn’t make it to its old destination, lake Meade is nothing more than a mud puddle. In recent years a dam what take down up river on the Mississippi causing major flooding in the lower states along the river. In MT in 59 a 7.4 Earth quake created a slide that now forms a lake, and did damage to the dam at Hebgen lake. A little more rocking and rolling an that area wouldn’t be, if that lake let loose.

            These are reasons I tend to stay in areas with much less waters [ there is no way I can be convinced the chest is in a moving body of water of any kind ] So in this theory I went with an overall use of the waters and not trying to locate a single source. In this case, it make more sense to me that waters is plural for a reason, and warm is an indicator to liquid.

            No book needed, no research to spend hours on, not even a map to scan over… just common knowledge we all should know. Is it correct? who knows.

          • Hey Seeker….did you note this comment and think about the recent Mysterious Writings that flowed? I mean followed. And yes…in that order. Nicely followed I might say. Thanks for the concepts 🙂

          • Seeker – And you wrote:

            “In MT in 59 a 7.4 Earth quake created a slide that now forms a lake, and did damage to the dam at Hebgen lake. A little more rocking and rolling an that area wouldn’t be, if that lake let loose.”

            In my solve “that area” is “it” in The Poem”,…aka the Madison River,…and that would be a “great flood” indeed!:

            “Eventually, all things merge into one, and a river runs through it. The river was cut by the world’s great flood and runs over rocks from the basement of time. On some of the rocks are timeless raindrops. Under the rocks are the words, and some of the words are theirs.
            I am haunted by waters.”
            ― Norman Maclean, A River Runs Through It and Other Stories

          • Seeker – Again,…from Joe’s post below:

            “Begin it where warm waters halt,
            And take it in the canyon down.
            Not far but too far to walk,
            Put in below the home of Brown.

            From there it’s no place for the meek,
            The end…………………..”

            Think: the Madison River as “it”

  29. Hello Seeker. I also agree this is one of the best threads I have read. I only discovered this Forrest Fenn treasure poem just 1 month ago. Something glared at me today whilst I today decided to look at this again.

    I will quote what DWRock said on this thread earlier: ” He may have pre-planned some of the hints, but I think some were offered to nudge those far off track back into the arena”

    I was looking on this site the list of questions and answers with Forrest Fenn . Look how he answers the questions differently. One can easily dismiss the answers difference by means of how the question was asked and mannerism speak. But I see a grande hint here to a clue. Each of these questions he could have answered either the same and/or just by saying “yes”. He always thinks first and chooses his words wisely and specifically .

    Here is copy and paste of 3 Q&A from this site:

    Q: Is the Blaze one single object? “In a word – Yes”

    Q: I would like to know if the blaze can be found during the day without a flashlight. “I would say yes.f”

    Q: Are you willing to say whether the place of the treasure chest is the same as the one where you had previously plotted to have your bones rest forever? “Yes it is. f

    So, now I add this line from the poem:

    “So hear me all and listen good,”

    So, perhaps the blaze is a word somewhere, in a word or is the word.

    I saw the movie again last night “the Prestige” (2006) it sure got me thinking.

    Cheers to you all.


    • Shane,

      Mind if I make some suggestion, seeing you started this a month ago… This site and Mysterious Writings [ found at the bottom of the page ] has many Q&A, comments, videos, interviews you may want to check out. It’s gonna take some time to rummage through them, but imo the challenge is about dedication. Don’t jump the gun… don’t get impatient.

      Personally I disagree with DWRock’s ” He may have pre-planned some of the hints, but I think some were offered to nudge those far off track back into the arena”

      I do not believe fenn is nudging anyone in any direction… Fenn may suggest something for thought, not unlike the get back into the box comment. But here’s another comment I think will help.

      Occasionally I forward parts of emails to Dal for use in his blog to
      add human interest for others who are in the search, but I never would if it made a difference or in any way might point someone toward or away from the treasure. Dal is also a searcher. I am determined to stay aloof of providing any additional clues that are useful. Everyone has the same information to work with. Some few have stopped within several hundred feet of the correct location, and then passed it by. I said in my book that
      the solution will be difficult but not impossible. If it was easy anyone could do it. Whoever finds the treasure will mostly earn it with their imagination. I have done only a few things in my life that were truly planned. Hiding the treasure chest is one of them. And at the end, the one who finds the gold will not feel lucky, but instead, will ask himself,
      ”what took me so long?”

      I gave the full quote, because there is other information to think about. But below is what I was talking about, and there are other comments to the same as well.

      “I am determined to stay aloof of providing any additional clues that are useful. Everyone has the same information to work with.”

      • Forrest has given a lot of help which is pretty cool…I think part of him would like to see the treasure discovered…

      • Hi Seeker, I get excited when I read Forrest said ” what took me so long?” when we find the chest! He makes it sound sooo…..easy. But why? Would we not feel lucky? Seems like he should say “the one who finds the Chest will also feel lucky?” why did he say We would not feel lucky? You have to ask why did he say that? There must be a good reason he said that? Too easy to feel lucky? I have pondered this statement for along time! Thoughts ? Lou Lee Belle

        • Sorry I hit send without editing. I was on a short break. And I had no more time. I was excited about this statement all over again! Now I am thinking I might know where it is! Sorry I am from the camp secret. Reminds me of the old story about the gold miner who went and shouted-out on the hill side in Nome, Gold! Gold……! They pushed him aside. Big dogs come in……bye bye gold! Ha! Anyone want to chime in on his statement? Lou Lee, back to work!

          • Lou Lee I’ll chime in. If you don’t want to share information that is fine. But trying to stop others from commenting will get you nuked very quickly.

          • Hi Goofy. Gosh gee, I have never stopped anyone from posting. I only requested some one who post extensive stuff over and over again about some things that have nothing to do with the chase, as you yourself said, would be moderated a bit. I have shared Here many ideas but not my direct location. I am not trying to keep people from sharing just talking about me and how I see it. Sorry I don’t think I have done wrong.

        • Lou Lee,

          These are just my thought to your questions.
          Another searcher stated; the poem is designed to make us fail at first. While I agree with this comment, imo the poem wasn’t meant to be easy, fenn wanted us to think, not just move about on guesses. However that is what the poem is also doing, getting folks to wonder area we might not have even tried before… so the poem has done it’s job… a win win for fenn so far.

          Another searcher stated; the poem in the end will flow in an elegant manor. While I agree with this as well, I think that manor is very hard to see. This imo, is more than simply getting folks of the couch… it’s a teaching lessons as well, on many levels. How we use words, how words can be used and the way to use them. To make us think, because we google everything instead if thinking for ourselves. etc. Common sense is an endanger species in this day and age.

          We fool ourselves to think that words must mean one thing and one thing only [ example; a canyon must be a canyon ]… so we pick one definition, usage, and run with it. A poem by nature give freedom of word usages and uses there meanings in multiple ways… so one word can mean 4 different things at the same time. Is this why fenn chose a poem to offer the information, rather than hiding clues in the book?

          So when we read and re- read this… we tend to get stuck on a single usage and tend not to look for other options… such as Halt must mean stop, it’s the most common usage of the word. I’m not saying it can’t mean stop. I think it does in part.
          “Begin it where warm waters halt and take it in the canyon down, not far, but too far to walk.”
          This sounds like we [ the searcher must go down a canyon ] why can’t it be the waters? and if so. Halt means a change in direction.

          Warm might indicate flowing, liquid water… no temperature needed other than liquid. BUT warm can mean close. so at the same time the indicator may be saying ‘we’ are near. Halt don’t go down the canyon. Would this change your perspective to what “not far , but too far to walk, might mean? Could it be ‘ not far for us, but too far to walk as the waters flow… to give us a perspective that the poem is told on two levels?

          Us [searchers] and what we need to do, and the description of what the poem might be about?

          Sure the diehards will complain this is over complicating the poem… IMO the poem is Complicated… fenn warned us it would be difficult… told us he work hard on it… said he chose the avenue of a poem to present the clues etc. etc. Over complicated has been suggested that we don’t need to know all those unknowns, such as bible verses, codes, head pressures and on and on… I think we are missing the major point of why fenn chose a poem… Multiple Meanings of word usages, and I add, which all can be used at the same time.

          The “elegant” part is after all the “cold” searches, thousands of hours of research, and more guessing, that takes us away for the chest… In the end the poem should flow into… “what took me so long” I believe it was designed to make us fail because of our own mistakes and thoughts… it will take dedication to solve this… the same dedication fenn put into it.

          So why wouldn’t you feel lucky? because you worked for it and in the end you will most likely say… why didn’t I see that before?

          I chose to write this little theory, in the attempt to get another line of thoughts going, other than the norm we have seen over the years. Also I didn’t want to inundate one of the other categories or jump from thread to thread… This line of thinking is not for all, as you can see by some with very little to offer on the possibility of a theory like this one.

          However, I do thank those [ many ] who can disagree and still put an effort into the conversation.

          • Thank you Seeker! I always ponder, Too far to walk…..so? Drive, bike, boat? It’s so interesting. As far as going down the canyon…I think the water goes down and you go up a creek. Just the way it sounds to me. I enjoy your thoughts. Thank you……

          • Here is one : When I or You… Feel stupid when you can’t find the treasure. Remember…There are people outside looking for POKEMAN. LOL

      • I shake your hand with appreciation for the time given by you for your suggestion with the intent for my benefit, Mr. Seeker.

        I have done your said suggestions previous. I saw this article on Ferns’ treasure on CNN, it caught my interest. I am, by natural inclination, an investigator. In my career it has never been by title but as a manager or consultant contractor. I have been required to do investigations of many sorts be it fraud, labor, incident or financial. I had done a fraud investigation with a corporation. My results resulted in 18 resignations. It was a perfect crime that no one could solve-but I did. It was a perfect crime until I was asked to devote my time to this. This financial crime lead to the discovery that is was not just within our company but was affecting the whole industry . It was a crime ring and I brought the whole of it down. It effected the whole West Coast of Canada within this industry. I received death threats and decided to move to where I am now. That was 12 years ago. I have done these investigations a couple times since in other industries that I have worked since- I have been good at it but it is not my title.

        When I first saw this Fenn’s treasure I read everything I could , including your suggestions. I read allot of peoples Solves, insights, ideas- all extremely intelligent but it has been 6 years now . At first I took it all in and looked at with my mind through everyone’s stuff I had read and did attempt at a solve . I came up with this and that area , ideas ect. All from people whom can’t find it for years. So now I cleared out my mind of all this stuff of other people -except for Forrest Fenn. I put on my investigative gene hat and started a fresh. Thinking with my way of investigation. So , as an example of my process of investigation in my first response to you is one part of methodical thinking that I espouse.

        Most of the world gives high credence to Stephen Hawking. I give high credence to Nikola Tesla. We will only discover this treasure by imagining, testing and discovering by means of conventional and non- conventional process. I am no longer interested in reading the Stephen Hawking’s type of searchers. What I am interested in Enlightening discovery!

        I am new , yes, but am I behind?

        Cheers to you all and thank you once again Mr. Seeker.

        • Shane – At Jenny’s they did a “Reverse Question with Forrest”,…where ff asked:

          “Which reminds me Jenny, if you could have a two hour dinner, just the two of you, and converse with anyone who ever lived in the history of the world; Who would you choose, and why? I’m interested in the opinions of your bloggers also. f”

          I chose Einstein,…because of his quote about imagination (which ff has used),…but many chose Nikola Tesla. He was my second choice. 🙂

          If we BOTH weren’t so hyper-vigilant about The Grizz,…I might ask you to be my search buddy. 🙂

          p.s. The Wolf and I are both still working on finding the solution to Einstein’s unfinished Unified Field Theory. Since he lives in Canada,…maybe all THREE of us can partner up. He flies a rescue helicopter also,…another great asset. And you have all the anti-Grizz paraphernalia. 🙂

          • To E*

            Thanks. I would be open to that for sure. Forrest did say it is at an area that is not dangerous and a place you could be with family and kids . So maybe no grizzlies in abundance to the area ? Working on Einstein’s unfinished Unified Field Theory? Really? Wow, that requires the consciousness awareness that intelligence is not protein based awareness expanded by marching through time! Haha. I am working on Tesla’s natural , unlimited energy source. Two great souls they are, that set a path we all are in without much credence given to them in the now.

          • Shane – Well, actually,…if ff caught any Golden Trout at Avalanche Lake,…he said he would have thrown them to the Grizzes,…but he did not catch any (his Dad warned him about encountering them on the way).

            And here is ff’s idea of the “grizzlies” in my search area:


            I had a chance to scoot down the Madison this evening. Its a beautiful river. I’ve never seen it before. Next I’ll have to be concerned about a blaze but first things first. The “home of Brown” is first. I walked some nice river tonight and saw some beautiful flywater. Will check out more tomorrow.

            Forrest responds-

            I am afraid you will figure the clues and find the chest. That’s why I am trying to guide you to where the grizzlies hide near Brown’s house and wait for treasure hunters. It was a hard winter for them and they are really hungry.

            And yes,…The Wolf and I work on Einstein’s unfinished theory whenever we get moderated somewhere on the blogs,…it’s just something to keep us busy,…when there is nothing else to do.

            Yeah,…and whatever happened to that Tesla TOWER J.P. Morgan wouldn’t finance? What was up with THAT???!!! 🙂

          • To E*,

            Sounds like a response in humor from FF. I too had earlier applied reasoning to that area of the \Madison. I am not fixated anywhere though . I am just having spare time fun armchair investigation. I have a new location that I am currently zero’d in on. Grizzlies are always prevalent in the RM , just heavy peopled areas are less likely to encounter one too close. The Wardenclyffe Tower financing was cut off by JP Morgan because he said , ” Wireless energy, how can I meter that”! He figured no wires , no control, no money. Tesla had a scheduled meeting with Roosevelt to propose this idea of wireless power to him but Teddy died before the meeting.

          • Shane – I pay attention to EVERYTHING ff says in humor. I think that’s the best time for him to give a hint,…when everyone things he’s just joshin’ us. That response, “..where the grizzlies hide near Brown’s house and wait for treasure hunters” is a perfect summary of what one of MY hob’s is.

            Yes,…I have read a great deal about Tesla,…albeit quite some time ago. And also about T.R. And about Einstein.

      • In comment to people questioning the location a 1,000 yrs or more…might I remind everyone about a few places that have existed as long or longer than 1,000 yrs…?
        Snake River
        Tennessee Indian Mounds
        Grand Canyon
        Yellow Stone
        Clovis sites found in valleys surrounding the Teton and Laramide Basin area.
        Mesa Verde
        See? F picked a spot that has existed for centuries and probably will continue to exist, unless mud slides, tornados, earth quakes and other destructive things Mother Nature can throw out.
        It’s got to be a place of reverence and respect, it’s his curch. A place that is as exciting as it is surprising, a place we will say, “Why didn’t I think of that?!”
        It’s elementary, my dear Seeker!
        So we all need to dumb down and figure it out! Back to basics, plain and simple!
        It IS in the poem!

        • Donna,
          I know a little about the Tennessee Indian Mounds… and while I feel a sacred area is not in play here imo. I hope other respect them for what they are.
          The Grand Canyon [ assuming you’re talking about the big hole the goes across a few states and not the one in YS ] has change quite a bit… the river doesn’t flow as far as it did 100 years ago compared to today. There’s lake Meade that wasn’t there 100 years ago, the drainage in Colorado the state, has an area that has change the course of the watershed, now drains the opposite of it’s natural course by mans intervention.

          Many of these changes have been man made and completely unpredictable to know what future changes we will make… I dare say that YS isn’t exactly like it was 100 year ago… and with big money in tourism, what will happen in another 100 years. Not to mention that some of the areas you listed are archeology sites and at the moment left as such, but who can’t predict that 100 years from now they don’t expand those digs by a great distances.

          I’ll agree that for thousands of years these area you listed remained mostly the same…
          Yet less than 300 years ago the USA wasn’t a country and most of the land was inhabited by the Indians. The population of the World when i was a kid as nearer to 2 Billion, today it closer to 8 billion… if the population grows at the same rate… in another 100 years there could be 24 plus billion people. So how will that affect all those water ways in the areas you mentioned.

          There is nothing elementary about it… in a very short time span… this country’s land and water ways have changed a lot. I can’t imagine 100 or a 1000 years down the road… I mean, we’ll need places to park all those hover cars, right?

          LOL “dumb it down and go back to basics”?!

          Basic what?

          • Poem basics, the construction/creation process. Break it down to the blue print. Using the dictionary, thesaurus and crossword dictionary. Starting at the base and working your way up…can’t explain much more except that it’s eye opening at the top, using another possible angle of sight/thought!

          • Donna,
            I get the part where folks don’t want to explain too much of their solves… I get that, at times, my post won’t makes sense to most because I leave certain aspects out. That is why I ask so many questions about the chase.
            Example; fenn uses words like “plan” “Architect” “Blueprint” Tells us to “analyze” the poem etc. Does it sound like we may need to use the information in the poem to [ for lack of a better word ] Build something to “retrieve” the chest?

            Before someone yells out… NO Tools Seeker… Look at it more like the ancients, that made incredible devices with only things around them. I don’t like the word build, maybe assemble is a better word. My point is… when we read the poem with only a single thought process in mind, such as stomping point to point and find an owls nest or a moving river for waters and wise. We over look possibilities that fenn wanted us to work for this… use imagination. We ‘Over simplify’

            What is imagination? Forget the dictionary definition… Imagination made the arrow head, Imagination created the pyramids, imagination put man on the moon. I’m not say the challenge is THAT drastic in design. But fenn said this was one thing he put planning into.

            Is there a “plan” we need to figure out to retrieve the chest? and IF that is a possibility, does that give a different insight to how the poem might be read.

            The advocates for the KiSS method or the advocates for straightforwards meaning ‘easy or simple’, will fight to the death on this thought. [mainly because it kills their brilliant solve they know must be right] That’s ok… I don’t think every page, or picture in the book or thousands of hours of researching is needed either … in-fact we spend more time in-doors doing this then out.

            Fenn said he made it difficult to find… doesn’t want to say buried or not buried, claims it’s too much of a clue… was thinking 1000 + years down the road. So when other say that their solve takes them to 9 different location to match 9 clues… I have to wonder if they put serious thought on the WhatIF part of the clues that might tells us how to “retrieve” the chest. not just find it.

            Yeah Yeah, ‘Seeker you’re making this complicated’…
            Someone please show me anywhere, that fenn doesn’t say this is a complicated/ difficult poem. The warnings we have receive tell us the path is not easy/direct unless you know beforehand, and don’t OVER complicate by knowing the unknowns [ Movies, songs, other authors, artist, other languages, sound a like words etc. etc.]

            To attempt to force the poem to be simple, in my mind, is over simplifying what a clue might really refer to.

            So I have to laugh when I come up with a scenario for a simple logical idea/theory and those who are advocate for the Keep It Simple Stupid solve… call it complicated. The one reason that I think they do is because in this theory there is no stomping out 9 places. But still, it refers to places.

            With all that said for thought… I do look into the stomping out places as well. Have talk to other that use this method, and have heard some very compelling thoughts. So I don’t dismiss it, but I do tend to ask, How does an 80 year old in relative good shape travel up and down a canyon, traverse water, hike long distances, carries a heavy backpack, in a single/one afternoon… twice?

            As fenn said, If it was easy anyone can do it.

            Donna you said; “can’t explain much more except that it’s eye opening at the top, ***using another possible angle of sight/thought!”***
            Thanks for say that… that is what the post was meant for.

          • Donna and Seeker – So taking Robert Langdon’s lead,…I looked for the Latin translations of those phrases:

            “There are two mottos scribed in Latin on the reverse of the dollar bill that have been directly linked to the works of the Roman poet Virgil. The first phrase is located just above the eye and reads, Annuit Coeptis. Derived from the Latin annuo, meaning “to nod” or “to approve” and coeptum, “undertakings,” the phrase literally translates as “He approves of the undertakings.” And the phrase Novus ordo seclorum, located just below the pyramid, literally translates as “New world order.”

            But here’s what Google Translate said:


            ‘Annuit Coeptis’ > ‘Winks Began’

            Wink wink, nudge nudge,…say no more, Donna! 🙂

            It would be so great if The Poem had sonme of these elements in its architecture!

          • Ya, good point. I wrote in amuse of your word “foundry” . I have to leave for a few minutes and when I return I will post here ” an Unpopular ” perspective of, ” put in home of Brown”, that is sure to raise eyebrows . But like my investigative past, first the eyebrows raise then the eyes open lol. We are here to share thoughts but not giveaway our { what we believe is} concluded facts. I post in that tradition.

          • Shane,
            I aint got no eyebrows left to raise.
            I am sure your HOB is good for you & maybe a few others.
            I look forward to your HOB & there is only one fact.
            No one has found the treasure.

          • To Jake Faulkner,

            I went for a walk to listen to my higher vibratory mind ..lol. With the focus on the word Brown, the sentence, the stanza and the entire poem. I had some interesting thoughts. I came back and followed thought synchronicity from a starting point of whom I think Brown is. I only thought of this Brown 2 days ago.It’s not the Brown I said in a posting I did a month ago. This process I do I call “lens testing” in my investigating speak. From that perspective (lens) , I view all clues available within this process. So, this is why I didn’t respond right away. I am giving my mind a break now lolol. So following this process with my flow of focus I am a bit shocked actually . This ” Brown” has ,it appears to anyway, to have lead me to the blaze! I have lens tested other things in the poem and there is allot of support to it, some actually succinct and others are still vary variable. I am shocked right now of the Brown to blaze. I have to relax and listen to some music and continue later. Theretofore, I have decided it is in my best interest not to elude in anyway to my HOB because in the 6 years of no result,this could change that dynamic.

            Yes, no one has found it yet! It may be someone new to it!

            With benevolence,


          • To Shame,
            I have thought about the process to discover “Brown”.
            There has been much speculation to the meaning & therefore is elusive in most peoples findings because they haven’t found it.
            I think I know what it is & I am sure it will blow your mind as well as open up the door to knowing it is a very simple awareness to what it actually is.
            I know the home of Brown is what it is & will let you know about this big finding I have found. I am going to wait to let this big secret out & let you try to figure out what I know. If it sounds like you, you are right & really don’t know what the heck I’m taking about as you.

          • Haha. Mr. Jake Faulkner,

            Quote: ” I know the home of Brown is what it is & will let you know about this big finding I have found. I am going to wait to let this big secret out & let you try to figure out what I know. If it sounds like you, you are right & really don’t know what the heck I’m taking about as you.”

            It was not my intent to sound like that . I had come to realize that after I had posted that I was going to explain my sudden realization of “Brown” when I returned., that upon arriving back home a realized the potential strength of my probability of Brown. Therefore, I had to rescind what I stated. I wanted to respond with an explanation. I did not intend to portray an immature child like game.


          • Jake;

            Consider this possibility:

            “If you’ve been wise and found the blaze, ”
            This is the only line in the poem that is written in the past tense. Because it was past tense, Consider reading it as “After you have found the blaze…” (sic) you must be prepared to do something…

            Just a thought.


          • JD, you said: “This is the only line in the poem that is written in the past tense.”
            “As I have gone alone in there”
            I think you are wrong about that statement.
            The 1st line in the poem appears to be in past tense.
            Do you see? Or, are you gone?

          • Jake and JD – Just because this distinction was mentioned in a novel about Antarctica that I am reading,…you are BOTH wrong,…and welcome to the Present Perfect:

            The present perfect is formed by combining the auxiliary verb “has” or “have” with the past participle.

            I have studied.
            He has written a letter to María.
            We have been stranded for six days.

            Because the present perfect is a compound tense, two verbs are required: the main verb and the auxiliary verb.

            I have studied.
            (main verb: studied ; auxiliary verb: have)

            He has written a letter to María.
            (main verb: written ; auxiliary verb: has)

            We have been stranded for six days.
            (main verb: been ; auxiliary verb: have)

          • E*,
            You have been wrong before & you are wrong again.
            “As I have gone alone in there” is past tense.
            If you cannot see this, then you are gone.

          • Jake, if there were a period at the end on “As I have gone alone in there (PERIOD). I would agree with you that it was past tense. Since there is a comma, and therefore; is coupled with the remaining three verses (which are present tense) I think that I can stand by my assertion that it is the only sentence that is in the past tense…but I certainly am not an English teacher and would be willing to admit I am wrong, if I am told so by an English teacher.

            Good discussion though.


          • JD,
            See, here’s the problem
            The beginning of all the lines in the poem are capitalized,
            The person that typed this poem had to press the enter button to start a new line;
            Regardless of punctuation, which obviously you have been fooled by*
            I think the caps override the punc’s & therefore no matter what word is used in the beginning of a new line such as “And” is not a continuation of the line before/
            IMO & BE CAREFUL!

          • Jake – I am just playin’ with you,…but:

            “The present perfect is a grammatical combination of the present tense and the perfect aspect that is used to express a past event that has present consequences.”

            Put that in peace pipe and smoke it. 😉

          • Jake – You wrote PAST tense:

            You have been wrong before & you are wrong again.
            “As I have gone alone in there” is past tense.

            This is “PRESENT tense and the perfect aspect”

            I just like to be RIGHT,…until all the little cows “have gone” home….

          • LOL Hahahaha E*,
            I can see you will never get it.
            I have gone fishing. Gone with the wind. I’ve gone crazy.
            I am going there. You go girl. No thanks, I have gone there already.
            Gone: PAST participle of go

            Are you still going crazy?
            Never mind my mind.

          • Frankly, Jake,…”I don’t give a duffle bag.”

            I’m already gone….

            Now I have “The Eagles” running through my head….

            p.s. “We use already to say that something happened sooner than expected. We usually use the present perfect with already and yet.”

          • Jake – When you wrote:

            “Gone with the wind” in this thread,…I responded with a paraphrased Rhett Butler-like response in my post. But apparently Dal or Goofy had the time to moderate and then edit it (see above). 😉

          • Oh, thanks E*, I see it.
            Doesn’t change anything in my mind.
            It’s just to popular.
            Anyway, I do like your area.
            You’re of the few that gets that.
            Do you think you will be journeying out there anytime soon?

      • Jake and Shane – I ‘found’ a reference online to ‘treasures bold’ as being ‘found objects’. Do you think ff maybe did a BRONZE of that rainbow-shaped epitaph in his book,…and mounted that on a flat stone to cap his hidey hole cache (which he carried on a previous trip without the bronze chest, ie. “I have gone alone in there” NOT ‘I went in there’)????

        That would then be his final ‘found’ blaze, IMO.

        “If you’ve been wise and found the blaze,
        Look quickly down your quest to cease.”

        And it would ALSO be this, IMO:

        “So I wrote a poem containing nine clues that if followed precisely, will lead to the end of my rainbow and the treasure.”

        • Jake – So then:

          “I wish I could have lived to do, the things I was attributed to.”

          COULD have to do with:

          the things to which ff was ‘attributed’,…or ‘gifted at’ IMO. Like bronze casting in his foundry. And writing. Like the epitaph on the stone and the autobiography in the Bronze chest.

          • Yes E*,
            I believe the place where the treasure sits, looks like a foundry, but not dry.
            If I got the legs left, I will check your spot after mine 200.

          • Jake – Thank you!!!!

            I hope Sandy is doing well. Maybe she will wave at you from The Trappers Cabin Ranch building,…if she is visiting with her daughter and the other lady. I am SURE she knows by now that fly fishing or hikers are allowed to visit my Wisdom-is-in-the-Heart blaze on that creek,…on her property (on the 200).

            The trail crosses the creek (a ways away from her gate, going South),…then hang a right as you meet the creek,…then follow it until you go continue across her property to my “blaze”. With low water in September,…you can play IN the stream bed sand where it is.That’s PERFECTLY legal. 🙂

            If it looks “too far to walk” from the trail intersection with the creek to Sandy’s property,…or too secluded,…DON’T DO IT!!! Because as you know,…there are GRIZZES in them thar trapper hills (I would post the scene of Robert Redford running from the Grizz in “Jeremiah Johnson” right now,…but I won’t. That’s when HE added a No Grizz Clause to his future contracts. But Bart the Bear 2 helped him get over that in “An Unfinished Life”). 🙂

    • Shane – You wrote:

      “So, perhaps the blaze is a word somewhere, in a word or is the word.”

      The “found”-ing Fathers had a large percentage of Masons in their membership. George Washington on the dollar bill, for example. To continue with my home of DAN Brown solve: Key Word = Quest (and things that endure for nearly 1,000 years):

      We should probably discuss the ‘keystone’ word:


      The first lecturer continues, “In drawing forth the third keystone, you have obtained the Grand Omnific Word.”

      The three Royal Arch Degree lecturers then declare,

      “As we three agree,
      in peace, love and unity,
      the sacred word to keep.
      So we three do agree,
      in peace, love and unity,
      the sacred word to search.
      Until we three,
      or three such as we shall agree,
      this Royal Arch Chapter to close.”

      They then reveal, the original ‘sacred Omnific Word’ – ‘Jah-Bal-On.’

      All just another way to look at the “home of Brown”,…the “word that is key’,…that is NOT a “bible verse”. That “sacred word” goes back to the time of King Solomon, right???:

      “According to Masonic historian Arturo de Hoyos, the word Jahbulon was first used in the 18th century in early French versions of the Royal Arch degree. It relates a Masonic allegory in which Jabulon was the name of an explorer living during the time of Solomon who discovered the ruins of an ancient temple. Within the ruins he found a gold plate upon which the name of God (YHWH) was engraved.”

      • Shane – And speaking of a Roosevelt,…and keystones and cornerstones,…and the Rainbow Arch of the Rockies (per Seeker),…and Mammoth Hot Springs as a potential WWWH:

        I give you the Roosevelt Arch:


        6. A “canister,” which we now call a time capsule, was arranged by local Masons and placed inside the Arch during the dedication ceremony. It reportedly contains a Bible, a picture of Roosevelt, Masonic documents, local newspapers, U.S. coins, and other items.

      • To E*

        I didn’t know you have a Dan Brown Solve! I was lead to that name yesterday. I was going to say it yesterday but then decided not to! So, after reading what you have just wrote I will add my Dan Brown as Brown. I may never go search for this chest so perhaps I can add some ingredients to your mystery soup.

        I looked at Dan Brown. When he was a kid and it was Xmas, birthdays ect, they would create treasure maps and ciphers. They would hide the presents around town and hunt for them. So, with this in mind, my attention focused on the shape of New Hampshire. Then I realized I had saved a picture of a location I came across that I had booked marked. That picture is a picture of a big rock that is on the website I book marked. The rock is the shape of New Hampshire! I would say it is 85-90% of exactness. So then I looked at the rest of the poem to see if it could jive and I do see the possibility is rather a strong case. The spot has obvious weaknesses also but depending on the perception of interpretations that are variable until the chest is found, one can choose to see a strong possibility. There are many strong assertions as a possible site with what FF has said, his philosophy , his archaeological interests and name of the area. I would have to be at least 95% sure of an applied solve to this area before I would even consider going and looking. Right now I am at about 65% plausible.

        Interesting we have the same Brown. I see you are an investigator with title!


        • Shane – Well,…obviously you haven’t read my solve I posted in the past three weeks called:

          “Aaaarrrrggghhh! That looks like Gardiners Island!

          Edwards Point on Hegben Lake really DOES look like Gardiners Island from Google Earth. The solve is here in pieces,…as answers to Chasers posts. I got a MILLION of em’! Just kidding. 🙂

          • To E*,

            Nice eye catch . It does look very similar as you say. Very parallel thinking we are. I haven’t read too many solves- I think I read all of three maybe. I prefer not to read others solves after the first ones I read. Reading comments here and there on here is more of an interest. I intend to keep my mind less susceptible to influence of fiction, less proven otherwise. I wont post my solve here either because I don’t write fiction. I write my thoughts but writing an itemized solve that has not been based on found treasure- is fiction writing. This is my personal preference and not a negative judgment of others nor a judgment whatsoever. Just a choice only.


  30. Okay so here is might latest thought. Forrest was asked if he rented a car and he didn’t answer but did say that he was worried someone would be able to figure out the mileage of the rental car and then backtrack to the location. HOW? Let’s think about this for a moment. IF I knew that Forrest rented a car in Montana and drove a total distance of 20 miles that would give me a total area to search of 315 miles. That is a BIG area to search. One thing that caught my attention though is the fact that he said a person would then drive right to the chest. Is that because within “that area” a certain spot would stick out like a sore thumb? So in other words if you had this information you would not need the poem. You could literally drive to the sore thumb and get the chest. HOW? What is so significant about this area that makes it stand out? Is it because the poem would describe it or is it because this is a place that is very special to Forrest and he has talked about it either publicly or in his book?

    • One last thing, can anyone tell me if an answer has ever been given by Forrest on whether or not the chest could be in a cave?

      • greg-

        The quickest way to get a definitive answer about something Forrest said is by me being wrong about it…People will jump all over my comment if I am wrong…so here goes-
        I do not remember Forrest ever ruling out a cave. He even wrote a fascinating scrapbook about Mummy Cave (Scrapbook 62) which led many people to think his hidey place might be in a cave. He has ruled out old mines because they are dangerous…and outhouses and graveyards. He has even ruled out dams as a place WWWH. But I don’t believe he has ruled out caves.

        • Interesting Dal. When is a canyon too small to be called a canyon? Forrest mentioned canyon when he referred to the deep canyons in hi hands from washing dishes. Like “water logged” So what is not a canyon? A large crevice? I don’t think a cave is a canyon…..but he may have hidden it in there.

        • Dal, if my memories serves me right, F said, “It’s not in a place where a flashlight is needed in the daytime.”
          I believe it was in F gets mail…
          He also said caves and mines are very dangerous, they contain gases.
          F also got very sick exploring caves filled with bat guano.
          AND…it’s exposed to the elements, fire, snow ect, which it WOULDN’T be if in a cave.
          Just sayin’.

          • Donna M. – Here’s the ff quote from Jenny’s:

            Question posted 6/30/2014:

            Hi Forrest, I would like to know if the blaze can be found during the day without a flashlight. Thanks, Ron

            Perhaps your question is wrought with trickiness Ron. Are you really asking if the blaze could be in a cave where it is dark during the day, thus the need of a flashlight? If there is no subterfuge intended in your question then I would say yes.f

      • LOL E* don’t be so hard on Dal… he has to read all out comments, post, replies and all are idiotic thoughts… Goofy as well… He’s allowed to miss something along the way.
        Nope ~ not in a mine, not in a cave…
        I know there’s a Doctor Seuss rhyme in there somewhere.

        • Seeker – Until ff posted that clue about “not associated with any structure”,…I thought WWWH was in a CELLAR in West Yellowstone!:


          The moral of that story, IMO,…don’t over-feed the “little fishes”,…here on Dal’s blog!

          I like this one:

          “Onward up many a frightening creek, though your arms may get sore and your sneakers may leak. Oh! The places you’ll go!”
          ― Dr. Seuss, Oh, The Places You’ll Go!

          That whole book is another “theme song” for me,…for the Chase. 🙂

    • Gregorious, I don’t remember the 2nd part of the car rental answer where Fenn said you would then drive right to it. (I don’t even remember some of the other parts you quote, but I’m not the most organized.)

    • gregorius – There happens to be what looks like ‘Forrest’s thumb’ (or Forest’s thumb’, if one is referring to the creek confluence there),…as one of the final blazes,…in my search area. It was relevant because of the story of ff flying over Philadelphia for me. But when you wrote this,…I giggled:

      “Is that because within ‘that area’ a certain spot would stick out like a sore thumb?”

      It did for me! 🙂

  31. Gregorious;

    The 4 states that the TC might be located in are all pretty sparsely populated, and not a LOT of cities where one might rent a car.

    Let’s say Forrest rented a car in Jackson Wyoming. How
    many miles did he rdrive? Let’s say 100. Divide by 2 = 50.
    Draw a circle around Jackson with a radius of 50 miles. What is in the circle? There are not a LOT of roads leading into and out of Jackson.

    Apply your clues – wwwh, canyon down, hoB, meek – etc.
    You can probably narrow it down fairly quickly.

    Just a thought. I do not think that it would be TOO hard of a task.


    • That only works IF the traditional 9 clues are straight forward. The problem I have with this is there have been 10,000 of people with boots on the ground that have combed over the Rockies with these “9 clues”

      • I am not sure I understand, “…the traditional 9 clues…” Not sure I have ever seen such a thing.

        If the 9 clues that are in the poem were agreed upon by all searchers, and are now traditionally used by all searchers, what are we doing here?

        You then say, “…have combed over the Rockies with these “nine clues” ” What “other” clues do you want us to use? Forrest has stated that he wrote a poem, and that within that poem there were “9 clues” that would lead the searcher to the treasure (Paraphrasing). Traditional or not, these are the 9 clues we have to work with. It is up to each individual searcher to figure out what is a clue and what is not…HINT – there are nine of them in the poem according to its author.

        Just my opinion.


        • In my opinion the 9 clues are not the 9 clues that most seekers use. After all of these years and tens of thousands of seekers with boots on the ground, using the 9 clues the treasure would have been found by now. There are only so many canyons down, warm waters halt and all the other clues in the Rockies. It would only be a process of elimination and with that many seekers it wouldn’t take that long.

      • P.S. Would you please list these 9 “traditional” clues? I am sure that they would not match my 9 clues, unless you use the 9 sentences = 9 clues, which MOST searchers do NOT ascribe to.


        • Too funny JD, you’re barking at the term/word traditional and you come back with;
          “unless you use the 9 sentences = 9 clues, which MOST searchers do NOT ascribe to.”

          How the heck do you know; MOST searchers do NOT ascribe to?
          Just using fenn’s averaging of 65,000 searchers… you might read post of a 100 hundred or so… I can name dozens of searcher throughout the years that have change their 9 lines clues to 9 sentences and back again.
          Your petty bickering is down right idiotic at best.

          Oh right! have a great day!

          • Yes Seeker – when you have been around long enough and considered enough locations, you will have any number of combinations and possibilities of what the nine clues might be in the poem.

            I would venture to say that most people become enamored with a location / first clue and then fit the other clues to the place.

          • Seeker,

            I get it. Maybe not 100% aligned, but I get it.

            I posted at the bottom (for now) of this thread.

            Love ya,
            Scott W.

  32. This quote from Mark Twain is a good thing to keep in mind for all searchers, far and wide! ‘It ain’t what you don’t know that gets you into trouble. It’s what you know for sure that just ain’t so’.

  33. Seeker and I have exchanged thoughts in the past, both publicly and privately. I get where he is coming from and where he is going. One thing for certain that this thread has proven is that we all fit into several vertical trains of thought. Once in a particular silo it is hard to escape.

    Seeker calls his approach “unpopular”, and I agree that it is. I have studied his presentations and logic since I joined this forum a long time ago, and I believe his approach is valid, but not completely understood by all.

    JD mentioned not understanding what the “traditional” nine clues are. To me, that means that he is trapped in that silo; he knows nothing else. The “traditional” nine clues is merely a certain specific approach to solving the poem. I personally don’t adhere to this approach and more closely align to what Seeker has proposed; perhaps not every example he throws out, but the approach.

    IMO – the solve is not linear. It is not concentric circles. It is not point to point. IMO, WWWH has nothing to do with physical H2O. IMO, WWWH is very big, yet it refines the search area to a very specific place.

    I’m in the same camp with Seeker.

    Open your ears and listen to what the poem tells you. Open your eyes when you study your good map.

    Good luck Seeker,

    Scott W.

    • As I have said before, one of the most wonderful things about this chase is that we each have the opportunity to decipher the 9 clues in our different ways. Hopefully someone, be it you, be it Jake or be it Seeker, or any one of the other thousands of seekers out there has the opportunity to be right. Someone WILL crack the code sometime. Y E A to all of those that have taken up the challenge.

      Good luck to ALL searchers and TRY to STAY SAFE

      – – – and be kind to others in your responses. All that goes around, comes around. Karma is a powerful force.


      • JD,

        Sorry I rubbed you the wrong way. I know I used you as an example to my point, but I promise it wasn’t personal.

        I enjoy reading your posts and I promise I did not mean to offend you.

        Hope you can forgive me and let it slide,
        Scott W.

  34. E*–my last search took me to about 100 east of your search request for Jake, in MT. Wish I had known!
    Will be heading out again in a few weeks, this time in WY. My new approach/breakdown of the poem, leads me to a beautiful area I never thought of, but should have known! P.S…Brown IS NOT a person! (IMO)
    Be safe all!
    ¥Peace ¥

    • Donna – I shared with Jake because he seems to have experience with the Grizz,…and is not afraid. There are LOTS of them in that search area near Sandy’s (see: Jake’s video of the Mama Grizz and two cubs),…that’s why Gallatin Valley Land Trust was so eager to get the property, I think. I would not send YOU “alone in there”! :-0

      I am so excited for you to explore your new solve in Wyoming! Like I said before,…I live vicariously through what searchers share here. Still not sure about Brown being a person or not,…depending on how I look at The Poem references,…and the back-up research I did for that.

  35. IMO….After reading these posts, I feel as though there are a lot of very intelligent people looking for the TC. However, I must say it seems to me that everyone is putting too much thought into it. Not that that is a bad thing, it just seems to give me a headache if I try to put too much meaning into a word or phrase. So after trying some simple thoughts about the poem, and looking over the area with Google, I have found a place I believe the chest could be. My solve found me in a spot at 9,160 ft. and in a wooded area between two small meadows. I’m 65 years old, and the last year and a half has been kinda rough on me, a broken leg, triple by pass and a hernia operation. With the good Lords help, I will be in the wood next spring. Good luck to all in the search. Food for thought….has anyone considered or had thoughts on Begin and Brown..BB’s..meadowlarks? Just wondering.

    • Good luck Doug, yes you are right there is a migraine in to much thought. Me n you have something in common, be careful of just wondering, the skies can turn dark in a moments notice. Have fun, hope you get outdoors soon.

  36. This is in reply to Donna this morning…first of all nice to meet you! The first part of your blog is exactly what you need to do to find the treasure. Take the words and things Mr. Fenn did to apply to some parts of the poem and it will fill in pieces to validate the location or area. Art collector/archeologist, loads, water high, he was a pilot …how does that fit in?

    Also these blogs are healthy…There was very good rapport between JD & Jake yesterday …I would have loved to see it continue but don’t get caught up in debates of who is right or wrong, bounce thoughts back and forth!

    Like I said before, I have figured out the poem and I am waiting for someone to join me…doesn’t we will find the treasure because it is still a hunt once you get to the location….

    Good luck!

    • Jon: “I have figured out the poem”
      Just because you think you figured the poem out doesn’t mean you know where the treasure is.
      There’s been hundreds of people here that have figured out the poem & none of them found the treasure. Many here have been searching for years.
      So what makes you think your solve is the one?

      • When you figure it out it kind of validates itself. The poem will take you to the exact location…and I agree with you ..it doesn’t mean I will find the treasure…I would love to have several people at the location to search right along with me…like a good old fashion Easter Egg Hunt!

        The book and the poem gives you the location but like FF said you can get there from strictly the poem…I say you kind of need the book!

        And to tell you the truth….I think only a handful of people have even figured out the starting point…Maybe one or two have figured it out entirely or it would have been claimed and I think I am one of them….I know you have heard that before but FF knows how many have all the clues…

        • I don’t get having an exact location and then needing people to search that entire location. I have a location, the Rocky Mountains.

          If in location you mean a 1′ square, then that would be an area 1 person can search. If you need people to search a large area, then most likely you do not have the correct location.

          If the poem is going to take you right to the chest, then no need for all the company. And no need for an Easter Egg Hunt. If you need to search when you get to your spot, I doubt you have solved the poem correctly. You should know within roughly a 1′-2′ square, any larger then that and the harsh reality of not solving the poem correctly is in your future.

          Ohh, IMO.

    • “Also these blogs are healthy…There was very good rapport between JD & Jake yesterday …I would have loved to see it continue but don’t get caught up in debates of who is right or wrong, bounce thoughts back and forth!”

      Exactly Missouri Jon… It’s hard sometimes not to get caught up in what one may think ~ they finally got a good handle on the poem.
      Many here enjoy the differences of opinions/theories/interpretations, because an alternative Idea may spark a thought. This is why most attend the blog.
      One of the reasons I asked this to be put in this category, so it would not interfere with 9 clues or other threads simply for the fact… different reading of the poem can get long winded in explanations and suggestion. It won’t be everyone’s cup of tea… but was intended for a place that those ideas to float around with others of the same mindset.

      Debates about how to proceed with understanding the poem will continue until the chest found … lol… that is when the debates will start on other aspects of the chase. I hope I’m around for that entertainment part of this story.

      • Seeker – Ditto:

        “Many here enjoy the differences of opinions/theories/interpretations, because an alternative Idea may spark a thought. This is why most attend the blog.”

        Thanks again for always sharing your thoughts and ideas. 🙂

  37. Seeker;

    A long ways up this thread you had a very nice, well thought-out post directed to Donna. In it, you said, “So I don’t dismiss it, but I do tend to ask, How does an 80 year old in relative good shape travel up and down a canyon, traverse water, hike long distances, carries a heavy backpack, in a single/one afternoon… twice? ”

    Here is one possible answer to your question:

    I think that is possible to be a slogger, and go from place to place without doing much actual walking. Also, I do not believe that all nine clues relate to a place.

    As you know, I choose the 1 sentence = i clue theory, so if I may:

    Clue #1
    As I have gone alone in there = a place, as yet unknown
    And with my treasures bold = A thing, the Treasure Chest and contents
    I can keep my secret where, = a place not yet defined
    And hint of riches new and old = The Treasure Chest and contents

    Clue #2
    Begin it where warm waters halt = a place that can be driven to
    And take it in the canyon down = a distance that can be traveled by car.
    Not far, but too far to walk = a distance that can be traveled by car.

    Clue #3
    Put in below the home of brown = a place that you can drive to.

    Clue #4
    From there it’s no place for the meek = a place – you are still driving.
    The end is ever drawing nigh; = a place – still driving.
    There’ll be no paddle up your creek = a place – walk 1/2 mile after parking.
    Just heavy loads and water high = same place as above line.

    Clue #5
    If you’ve been wise and found the blaze = place – same as above two lines
    Look quickly down, your quest to cease = place 50′ from above lines.
    But tarry scant with marvel gaze = place – same as above line
    Just take the chest and go in peace = Place – same as above two lines

    Clue #6
    So why is it that I must go and leave my trove for all to seek? not a place

    Clue #7
    The answers I already know, = not a place
    I’ve done it tired and now I’m weak = not a place

    Clue #8
    So hear me all and listen good = not a place
    Your effort will be worth the cold = “cold” = a condition at a place

    Clue #9
    If you are brave and in the wood = a place that you have already been to.
    I give you title to the gold = not a place

    In total, you have driven close to 20 miles, and hiked about 1/2 mile – give or take 250′. All of which could be done twice in an afternoon. Forrest only talks about hiking the last 1/2 mile twice in an afternoon. I am confident that he could have driven to the site – hiked 1/2 mile twice, and driven back in one afternoon…I know, because at 74 with heart problems, I have done it several times.

    This is not to say that I am right, or that you are wrong. I am just saying that here is a possible solution that would allow “slogging” in one afternoon by a fairly fit 79 or 80 year old man.

    Just my personal opinion.

    Good luck to you Seeker – please TRY to STAY SAFE


    • JD…I agree with SOME of your explanation! But, you just drove “passed the treasure, not realizing the importance of where you were at!”
      F answered to a question, “who is Brown?”. F answered, “If I told you that, you’d walk right to the treasure!” In some interviews, he says, “you’d go”.
      This tells me, that the HOB, is the end of the vehicular journey, and the beginning of the BOTG journey, and the journey is certainly no place for the meek, who don’t know the woods, and the end of your quest is very near, approximately “less than a few miles”, but will take you an afternoon and two trips to retrieve it.

      Shane…thank you. I’ve been in police detection for 9 yrs.
      Missouri Jon…I live in KC, MO! Nice to meet you, too. I HAVE considered F’s life, and he’s been my source of study for 5 yrs now. The beauty of his poem shows his eye for the arts, his curious mind and thrill to see around the next mountain, cetainly describe is archeological skills, and his verbal references directing us through distance is seeing through his pilot’s eye. I hope you are as accurate as you are confident of your solve, I’d like to see a Mule find Indulgence!
      And finally, to my Seeker…my Grandfather was over 90 when he had to give up his cattle farm, passing away at 103! So, please don’t consider every 80 year old men are feeble. F led the life style of a mountain man, and I know his grandson said it was hard to keep up with him while hiking. To spend an afternoon to hide a treasure, hiking up and down thru the woods was tiring, but he did it! Don’t limit your thinking by over classifying the possible.
      Whew, I’m winded! Sorry! Play nice.
      ¥Peace ¥

      • Donna,

        Who said anything close to ” So, please don’t consider every 80 year old men are feeble. ”

        I know for a fact that fenn can out walk me.
        I don’t underestimate the man’s abilities in the slightest… but I have heard comment that fenn stated, about area’s terrain, aprrox. distance how far he walked to hide the chest, etc. etc.
        There’s a big difference to hiking up and down through woods, to hiking up and down in some of these canyons searcher are going into.. twice.
        And that is one of my point of keeping the poem too simple… is a canyon in the poem something we need to traverse and / or is a canyon in the poem what we think a canyon should be?

    • JD,

      Whether true or not, I find it hard to think driving was intended as ‘part of the solve’… it makes no sense to me that the premises was to get out house and be one with nature, kick over a log to see what’s under it, roll over a rock, peek in a crevice, maybe enjoy a lunch by a babbling creek, just to travel by mini van with all the comforts of home within, as part of the solve.

      That was not meant as to be inconsiderate in anyway… so don’t get the thought i’m putting your solve down… you tend to think that, when I comment about your posts.
      My point is, if we [ a searcher ] uses a possible clues as mom’s soccer taxi… will we miss an important possibility, simply in the effort to Keep It Simple?

      You can believe want you want…. I have a hard time that fenn is saying, leave the house and its modern technologies, just to jump back into a vehicle that has the same, and that be “part of the solve”;
      “Begin it where warm waters halt = a place that can be driven to
      And take it in the canyon down = a distance that can be traveled by car.
      Not far, but too far to walk = a distance that can be traveled by car.”

      That’s not even stomping or hiking [ note; stomping is a hunting term for following/tracking prey]… we might as well rent a chauffeur limousine to cart us around. There are some nice stretch 4WD hummers that could do the job.

      One of my alternative reading of the poem has, a hike to the first two clues and all the other clues are there. No stomping, driving, going pass the other clues and the chest… or using a car. Why is that such a hard concept to consider? If you look at stanza 3 “From there”… seems to mean from hob, Does this stanza 3 or stanza 4 imply we need to travel? It looks more like description of surrounding than movement.

      And why is it we think… take it in the canyon down… has to me this is a much for the searcher to do… the simple logic here is, this stanza refers to “waters”

      Sorry Bud, I have a hard time thinking a vehicle of any kinda is involved with the solution of the poem.

      • And we can agree to disagree, until someone does find the treasure. I did not plan my solve this way, it just worked out this way. For a 79 or 80 year old man, it MIGHT have been the way HE planned it.

        Only time will tell.

        Nice critique – TRY to STAY SAFE


        • I’m with you JD.
          If WWWH is not in your backyard, you’re gonna have to drive to someplace.
          Also ,NFBTFTW ,suggest another form of transportation, not walking.
          IMO of course

        • JD and Seeker – I have mentioned that I think ff visited special locations that were also “blazes” and equivalent to clue answers he wrote into The Poem,…especially on the day he hid the bronze chest. To me,…that involves fly fishing. And fly fishing involves GEAR,…which IMO requires a “sedan” to transport,…from WWWH to the hoB,…where I believe ff “put in” on foot at a trail head (from EITHER trail head in my solve):


          Posted on June 17, 2016 by Jenny Kile

          Dear Forrest, may I ask what type of car you used to go into the mountains to hide the Treasure Chest. ~ Bill

          Yes Bill, it was a sedan. f

          I believe the on-foot part from his “sedan” was done in two trips in one afternoon (which is when he needed the sandwich and the flashlight,…in case it got too late),…but that the fly fishing part was done in the morning.

          I my area,…the sun does not go down until 9:30pm or so,…this time of year. My main solve says he was done,…including having lunch,…by 6:30-7:00pm.

      • Not arguing – just seeking clarification Seeker.

        You say,”Sorry Bud, I have a hard time thinking a vehicle of any kinda is involved with the solution of the poem.”

        How can you say that, and at the same time, Forrest says that he drove to a parking lot, got out, traveled some distance, and secreted the treasure – taking two trips to do it in an afternoon.?

        He drove, but (for you) in order for us to maintain the purity of Forrest wanting us to get out into the wilds of nature, we must hike, or paddle etc?

        You are not being logical. Help me to understand your logic.


          • Hi Jake;

            wwwh to hoB = too far to walk (Must drive or use other conveyance.

            Forrest drove car to “END” got out and secreted treasure.

            Only thing in between = no place for the meek.

            Drove wwwh to hoB – parked – walked to/through no place for the meek – got in another car and drove to end…I don’t think so – Why would he do this? Just makes sense he drove all the way to the end from wwwh…at least to me.(IMO)

            Good luck in September Jake


        • JD,

          “I made two trips from my car to the hiding place and it was done in one afternoon.”f

          What was “it”, that was done in one afternoon, was it just the two trips from his car and back all done in one afternoon, or did this total time also include his drive to and from the place where he parked his rented* sedan?

          *Of course I’m assuming his sedan was rented and wasn’t his personal Jeep Grand Cherokee.


          • C’mon Bill C, our we going to get into what [it] IS, in regards to walking to the hidey spot? We don’t even know if fenn took the same route as the poem.

            Maybe “I” in the poem is his car… and IT’s tired and week.

            I think I’ve been under good behavior here… But again… I asked for this to be posted for discussion about reading the poem in a little different flavor than the other threads have produced.

            How about we chat about those possibilities? Call them WhatIF’s if ya like, give examples and ideas to alternative readings of the poem… and leave egos at the door. You can pick them up at the hat check on your way out.

        • GEEEZUSZZ, where did fenn say “he drove to a parking lot” lol, I get what you’re saying. YES, as I said in my comment to Donna… we all have to drive to our search area… Its a common sense… You listed the use of a vehicle as need as references to clues;
          Clue #1
          As I have gone alone in there = a place, as yet unknown
          And with my treasures bold = A thing, the Treasure Chest and contents
          I can keep my secret where, = a place not yet defined
          And hint of riches new and old = The Treasure Chest and contents

          Clue #2
          Begin it where warm waters halt = a place that can be driven to
          And take it in the canyon down = a distance that can be traveled by car.
          Not far, but too far to walk = a distance that can be traveled by car.

          Clue #3
          Put in below the home of brown = a place that you can drive to.

          Clue #4
          From there it’s no place for the meek = a place – you are still driving.
          The end is ever drawing nigh; = a place – still driving.

          That’s 4 clues and two and half stanzas we need to drive.
          No, it doesn’t make any sense that fenn has us driving out clues. I gave a number of examples to why, and I used fenns words to those examples.

          Can you somehow, using fenn comment explain why we need a car or why fenn would use a car for a clue? I stand by my examples. All I’m asking is, give a logical reason… to why fenn would write a poem, tell all he wants us out in nature, just to put us back into a car for almost half the poem, solve, clues, whatever you want to call it.

          Another searcher gave a good example of your clues…
          Children; Daddy are we there yet?
          Dad; No kids we still have 4 more clues me must drive.

          Fenn; “If you can’t make two trips from your car to your solve in several hours, then don’t go.”

          “From your car”… “to your solve”… doesn’t that give you pause about a car is needed for “clues”

          I try an give logical example… if you want to have a discussion on possibilities, have something other than IMO. I mean, if we don’t use what we have been given to help… why bother.

          • Seeker;

            I DID NOT use a car AS a clue. Example:Begin it where warm waters halt = a place that can be driven to
            And take it in the canyon down = a distance that can be traveled by car.
            Not far, but too far to walk = a distance that can be traveled by car.

            If you want to park your car at wwwh and then walk the entire distance, go for it (For me about 20 miles start to finish = 40 miles there and back). If you are in your 70’s like Forrest and myself, IF you can drive ANY part of the the distance, you will PROBABLY drive the distance.

            OK he didn’t say he parked in a parking lot – he MAY have parked at the side of the road – who knows? Certainly not I, and certainly not you. Who cares?

            Point is, at SOME POINT Forrest got in a car and drove to a point that was within a few miles of his hidey spot, hiked -hid -hiked back -hid rest of treasure (or chest) and hiked back to his “sedan” and drove back somewhere (Home – Hotel – car rental place – who cares?)

            All I am proposing is that it is POSSIBLE that Forrest was able to drive about 20 miles, then walk a total of two miles, and then probably drove somewhere – maybe to return the “rented” sedan to Avis or who-ever.

            Lighten up Seeker. We are NOT in a battle with each other…or at least I am not in a battle with you. You presented an idea or theory of how to read the poem. I proposed a much simpler solution that took advantage of modern conveyances. Hike all that you want, maybe you will cool off a bit.


          • and, why did he say, if you can’t make two trips from your car in SEVERAL HOURS. Why didn’t he say in one afternoon?

            BECAUSE IT (hiding the chest and whatever else he had to do) WAS DONE IN ONE TRIP, AFTER NOON. One trip in the morning, complete and done in the second trip, WHICH WAS AFTER NOON!!!!

            I’m with Seeker on this one. What if I was lucky enough to live right there in the general area. He has stories about riding horses, right? Why couldn’t I just ride my horse? No need for a car. Now f may have needed to get to the area by car, but I see nothing that says he drove the clues. And yes, he could make two trips and be done after noon, and gone 20 miles, by horse. But there is also no sign of him saying he rode a horse for the clues. We just don’t know. Period. Everybody can think what they want, but to say one way or another is just one person’s way of making something fit their solve. So, to all the noobs out there reading these posts, f has never said he drove the clues. Those are just the opinions of some.

          • JD… “Lighten up Seeker.”
            Lighten up what? i thought we where talking about clues and comments.

            You said: “I proposed a much simpler solution that took advantage of modern conveyances.”

            That is exactly why I pointed out fenn comments. Do you really believe with what fenn has stated { i’m not going to put all of them up again } That fenn is making that distances where we need a car?

            You added: “If you want to park your car at wwwh and then walk the entire distance, go for it (For me about 20 miles start to finish = 40 miles there and back).”

            Does your solve involve two trips… My math tells me that 80 miles total.

            Fenn stated; “If you can’t make two trips from your car to your solve in several hours, then don’t go.”

            I need to look up several again.

            Instead of debating your solve, which so far, that’s about all ya have done.
            Do you have anything to add about the thread?
            I know this line of thinking is not for all… but it’s a simple discussion about different readings of the poem and how those might show the poem in a different manor. Other possibilities.

            Or are you just so hell bend on your solve being so correct, it doesn’t matter what anyone offers.

        • Hey JD
          Real quick, where did F say he drove to a parking lot.. I have heard people say that he drove to the hidey spot then walk a little ways? Never heard about the parking spot. Please show me where that is, OK?

    • ahhhhh, you keep saying afternoon. It could be done in 1 trip after noon. If I said, “what’s black and white and read all over, what would you say? newspaper? But if I said, ” what’s black and white and red all over, then what would you say? newspaper? See what I’m getting at? If f actually wrote down afternoon, then I could go with that. But if he said afternoon to someone, say in an interview, then it is possible he means after noon.

      “It’s not what I said, it’s what I can make you think I said”

      • I one million percent agree with you here…..and li e that F speaks “through” the media…..the words he ‘sends’ to people to share are always so much more obfuscated and deliberate…the ones people write after hearing him give him so much more freedom ; I mean I; of speech because the amendments come naturally to the recorders.

      • Question Charlie;

        Does it make any difference? Who cares EXACTLY how long? All in one afternoon, or one trip in the morning and a second trip after noon?

        Who cares? Is the sky blue? No it is azure, or it is
        teal or a thousand different shades of blue come the responses. WHO CARES? Why argue a pointless point?

        Just my opinion. Too much work for my one surviving brain cell


        • Well JD, it doesn’t matter. But if people are going to keep saying it, if I was new, I would believe f talks one way and not really listen to what he is saying. I said it before, and you already know this, I can care less when he went. But do I really mean it?

          If one is thinking deeply, and is proving their solve, to themselves, then a timeline may be important. You may say 2 trips in one afternoon, meaning two trips from noon to loss of daylight. Okay, fine. And he drove near the spot, and walked around for about a mile. Okay, if he could drive close, anyone can. So he could be seen, and within a mile, even more possible. Weekend or weekdays? Weekend could bring tourist, and more activity to the spot. Highly unlikely. So weekdays. Kids get out of school around 3:00, and people from work between 4-5. He could be seen after 3:00, so he would need to be done by then. It’s important because this scenario seems highly unlikely. He tried to think of everything.

          If you think of a morning trip and an after noon trip, you now have opened up a possible time frame for him to cover some distance without being noticed. That IS important. The person that cares is the one able to “try and think of everything”. If you don’t care fine. But, can you go to a place that does not allow motorized vehicles? Is your place gated off with a no trespassing gate? Could you go 20 miles total and not be seen if you couldn’t use your car? Is your spot really 1/2 a mile away from where your car is? Answering those questions is very important. So, even if you don’t care. And you can drive to your spot and walk 1/2 a mile and find the chest, with that I see f just laughing. That does not sound like the person that wrote this difficult poem and the one who tried to think of everything. Don’t take this the wrong way, but that scenario sounds like a first year searcher. Sorry JD, it is important.

          The point is watch what you take for info when he speaks and someone else interprets that speech with their words. Like Jamie said, it gives him so much freedom. Plausible deniability if you will.

      • Taken directly from the cheat sheet above.” Q: Were both trips made on the same day/date? “I made two trips from my car to the hiding place and it was done in one afternoon.f”

        Not sure it could be any plainer. It does NOT say After Noon – it says “AFTERNOON” – but what do I know? NADA


          • How do you discount something that you dont know the meaning of? That make zero sense. Why not find out the meaning of it first, so that you can discount it, if you need to.

            I know these are in your opinion JD, but you have a very simple way of looking at things. While I agree that the answer may be simple, I do not think that it is simple to find the answer.

            I just dont know why someone would want to throw away a piece of a puzzle, yet somehow expect to complete the picture… But what do I care.. lol. I am competing. I just wish my competitor, was more challenging.

        • Hammertime;

          What piece of the puzzle am I throwing away?

          What is it that I do not know the meaning of?

          If you are going to have a negative comment about someone or something, you have to be specific.


          • It’s not a negative comment. I am just implying by you saying “who cares” in regards to an element that has a meaning to the chase and it’s physical part of a solve, then you may want to look closer at its meaning instead of saying “who cares”.
            That is what I took from the comment. I could be entirely wrong, and misunderstood, but I just feel like you are discounting some important pieces of the chase, and I’m not sure why. Lol.

            Most importantly, I was not trying to be negative. Just trying to assist in helping some folks find more meanings in the chase.
            I apologize for the reflection I showed. I have no reason to be negative. 🙂

        • That’s my point JD, f did not write that. I made two trips from my car and it was done in one, after noon. If the person wrote it this way, then what? Is that any plainer? It is important, if you think not, you limit yourself.

          • Charlie – the line is in quotation marks with an f at the end. This is an indication that it was a direct quote from Forrest. If it was misquoted, I am sure Forrest would of had it corrected, but he has not…or so it would appear.

            It would appear that your solve needs to give you added time to get from where a car can be parked, to the treasure, and back twice, or you would not be arguing this trivial matter. It would APPEAR that you are attempting to make the facts fit your solve, rather than letting the facts determine your solve.

            Just my opinion, but I know nada.


          • if you can’t make two trips from your car in SEVERAL HOURS. Why didn’t he say in one afternoon?

            I post again because it raises a good point. Come on JD, if you are interviewing me, and I say something to you, then you are “quoting” me when you repeat it, right? You are interpreting what I said. So, again,

            “It’s not what I said, it’s what I can make you think I said”

            We can mute this discussion if you like, I’d rather think in the realm of both ways instead of the one way. Gives me more options.

            I’m not trying to fit my solve. It is just more logical to think there was needed time. Have to try and think of everything…We are not going to get all the answers, but you should be able to logically tell yourself that he even thought of the little things. Especially covering his tracks and the freedom he uses when he picks his words in relation to the chase. Homonyms…..

            The best advice would be the book. Only go by the book. The words are written by him. If you had an interview with him and he said “knowlege”, would you write down knowledge? You would be quoting him, right? And, you would be wrong. (talking about when he purposely misspelled the word). Is that a better example JD…?

        • JD
          Wrong!!!!!! It could more simple..Forrest refuses to answer that question completely. He’s been asked that question a lot and he always side steps the day or date. See, if Forest drove close to the hidey spot and then walked a few miles
          ( let’s say 1 mile each way )that’s 2 miles completely for 1 trip. Say he had to walk up and down some canyon not far but far enough to tire a 80 year old man. So he makes 1/2 afternoon trip to and from the hidey spot, ( 2 miles ). Say he’s worn out and still has to drive back to home or hotel. Remember in TTOTC f says that ” Not all roads were paved ) but yet he’s in the woods somewhere and f said that ” night time comes quickly in the jungle.” So he leaves and comes back a 2nd day and it takes 1/2 the afternoon to finish the TC. So f makes his 2nd trip to and back from the hidey spot, ( 2 miles ). So what f is saying is true, he hid some of the treasure on the 1st 1/2 of the afternoon trip went back somewhere then came back to the hidey spot and did his 2nd trip 1/2 afternoon to and from the TC.
          1/2 Afternoon for 1/2 of the chest,
          1/2 Afternoon a different day for 1/2 (the rest of the TC)
          Total = 1 complete afternoon
          1 complete treasure chest

          Input please…….
          Timothy A.

          • My – My what convoluted logic, but as I said before…Who Cares? How long it took to hide the treasure does not change where it is secreted. Is what you state possible? Sure, ANYTHING is possible. Forrest has stated,”Q: Were both trips made on the same day/date? “I made two trips from my car to the hiding place and it was done in one afternoon.f”— and that is good enough for me.

            You are more than entitled to your opinion, and I respect your right to state an opinion different than mine.

            Good luck and TRY to STAY SAFE


      • charlie – The question was asked in writing,…and the answer given by ff, in writing at Jenny’s,…so that would be “afternoon”:

        Also, you’ve mentioned on multiple occasions that it took two “trips” to secret the chest and contents to a very special place. Perhaps someone has already asked this, but I’ve not found an answer yet posted or video recording that contains an answer. Forgive me if this is redundant, but were both trips made on the same day/date? Not to be anal, but that would be one spinaroo of the giant ball we call Earth that constitutes a single 24-hour day to its humble inhabitants.

        Thanks so much.
        Kind Regards,

        Joe, you make this thing so complicated. Reminds me of the reason I don’t like meetings. I hope you don’t belong to a PTA someplace. I made two trips from my car to the hiding place and it was done in one afternoon.f

  38. Seeker, F used his car to get to the area he hid his treasure, he said that. Never heard him say float or any other aquatic transport.
    Imo, the third stanza should find you at HOB, ready to hike.
    The 2nd stanza gives you a canyon, about a ten mile drive (as in preface of TFTW, which F acknowledged ).
    I agree, no chauffeured limo to the treasure, just less than a few miles after HOB. But that’s IMO.
    Also, you wanted input, so why uncharacteristically rebuttal someone’s ideas? It’s your opinion that JD’S soccer mom taxi is wrong, it’s not..to JD! To me, you are strongly imposing your opinion, but I know you don’t mean to, it’s your passion and intelligence coming thru.
    As F said, don’t correct someone if they are wrong! This is a race to the gold! Smile and say, “YES, DEAR. THAT’S NICE DEAR…”, then run for the treasure! Lol!
    ¥Peace out ¥

    • Donna. Honestly that was a bunch of Semitics…
      I didn’t say fenn took a boat or even that “he” mentioned one… These are ideas of other searchers. Do you really think I or anyone else would consider a limo?… Read the context of the post….
      Your argument that I ask for input and I “uncharacteristically” rebuttal someone idea… Isn’t that the reason for discussions? Give an input, receive one. The only complaint i see here is that you didn’t like my response… that’s fine… not everything will be agree upon.

      I gave a response to JD’s list that he volunteered. And argued the point with comments from fenn’s about Getting out of the house…
      Of course fenn used a car to get to the “area” ~ eventually all searchers must use some kind of vehicle to get to “the area of search” Unless you’re lucky enough to live next door to that area. this is a mute argument.

      And yes I want input, But that input is open for rebuttal… and I gave examples to why this was highly unlikely…. If you or anyone else don’t care for my little humor word usage, such as mom’s soccer taxi, I can’t help that. Yeah, I find it strange that a vehicle would be use for so much time and travel… one should ask, why would fenn use a car as a clue? When fenn wants us away from technology, away from the comfort of those, to get out and get some fat off of us, to explore under a log or behind a rock and on and on… Those are not opinion, but fenns comments over the years.

    • I apologize for piping in but it was long ago that some unknown from petticoat junction mentioned “confirmation bias”. It all depends on how you look at it. Any word can be misintereputed. Don’t get offended or defensive just analyze another way or you will end up with a big zero. Think a blogger would ever use the word fear or dread in they’re title? Only if it was meant to have a hidden meaning. Sometimes I think this is first grade with the boys against the girls, lol. My point is analyze the poem thinking like Mr. Fenn wrote it. Every one posting here has some positive input and I would like to believe that the negative is nothing more than misunderstood wording. I know that Mr. Fenn wants us to learn and stay positive. And besides there is only one right way and we all must take different steps moving forward. Just my opinion and no offense meant.

  39. For those who have invested time in this thread you may be interested in hopping over to ” Searchers Discussions” and reading the (entire) Architecture of the Poem thread. Aside from the usual naysayer comments, things have not really progressed or changed in regards to the difference of opinions in how to interpret Fenn’s poem. The differences are many and some of the names have changed, but overall the divide is about the same. Kudos to Seeker for bringing another approach to discuss something that has been beat to death for as long as I’ve been here. For what it’s worth, I believe the “What if”, is that Fenn may have been pointing out that the way to the winning solve may be right here on Dal’s A # ONE blog….I have my suspicions and will take them with me on my next Quest. In the interim, I hope every searcher is having a great time out there and mixing in a ton of adventure on their Quest…

  40. Seeker—

    I have only been at this for a little time, so I don’t know if anyone has proposed this before or not. But it is a different way to look at the poem. I will just share this:

    Begin… starts the second stanza. The word “halt” is at the end of the first sentence. To halt means to stop of a time, not necessarily come to an end of a journey. In the third stanza, second sentence is the word “end”.

    I bring this up because of your earlier post stating that it is possible that only part of the poem is necessary. Could it be that between the words “begin” and “end” there is a solution?

    Just wanted to throw that in there. 🙂

    • Joe – That was intriguing! And if Donna M. would have found the bronze chest in the grassy area below my Wise Owl (glacial erratic) “balze”,…your proposed “begin” and “end” solution would fit perfectly:

      “Begin it where warm waters halt,
      And take it in the canyon down.
      Not far but too far to walk,
      Put in below the home of Brown.

      From there it’s no place for the meek,
      The end…………………..”

      She didn’t continue The Poem in her search for me. She didn’t go beyond the Day Use area,…across the highway,…where the 1959 Earthquake Scarp exhibit is,…or down the Madison River to where the Madison Slide happened to create Quake Lake (below my Brown trout hoB and BOTH “no place for the meek” IMO). And she didn’t go to the trail head,…to do the on-foot part,…beyond which My Grizz lives (home of Brown bear).

      The solve Donna helped me with I always called “Forrest’s Plan B” solve. That was the one I imagined he’d planned if his physical capabilities changed,…and he could not hike the “few miles” to my spot in two trips. He would then just take a float tube or canoe to hide the bronze chest in that grassy area just across the Madison,…and would have parked his “sedan” at the Day Use area,…where you can see that “Wise Blaze” glacial erratic.

      • Joe – And did I mention here that I was seeing FISH everywhere,…when I joined The Chase in March/April 2013? I even found a potential “secret where” fish acrostic. I think ff was a baptist, right? And he said his “church is in the mountains”:

        The most meaningful orientation is probably to have the fish swimming to the left, as is shown above. The symbol then resembles the first letter of the Greek alphabet, alpha. That recalls Revelation 1:8:

        “I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.” (King James Version).

        “Some Christians believe that a second link between their religion and the fish symbol is seen in the Greek word for fish (ichthus, spelled: Iota Chi Theta Upsilon Sigma). That is an acrostic which has many translations in English. The most popular appears to be “Jesus Christ, Son of God, Savior” 16 [Iesous (Jesus) CHristos (Christ) THeou (God) Uiou (Son) Soter (Savior)].”

        “When threatened by Romans in the first centuries after Christ, Christians used the fish mark meeting places and tombs, or to distinguish friends from foes. According to one ancient story, when a Christian met a stranger in the road, the Christian sometimes drew one arc of the simple fish outline in the dirt. If the stranger drew the other arc, both believers knew they were in good company. Current bumper-sticker and business-card uses of the fish hearken back to this practice.”

        And check out the ASTERISK in this image:


        There’s an ‘X’ also (Chi). And that ‘Sigma’ kinda looks like an ‘E’,…ergo E*. The End. Alpha to Omega. 🙂

        • E*

          You said before and continue to say –

          ” the trail head,…to do the on-foot part,”

          Forrest has said it’s not near a human trail……..

          So I’m sure you will have a good explanation for saying that……?

          • inthechaseto – No one goes across the deep hole on the Madison (where Bob Jacklin caught the 10lb Brown trout),…unless they are in a boat of some kind. It is too deep there for waders. That is why Donna M. had to have a fly fishing guide take her over there to search in a canoe. Nice guy. Nice girl. 🙂

          • Really E –

            Because this is what you wrote before and there was no mention of a boat…

            “JD and Seeker – I have mentioned that I think ff visited special locations that were also “blazes” and equivalent to clue answers he wrote into The Poem,…especially on the day he hid the bronze chest. To me,…that involves fly fishing. And fly fishing involves GEAR,…which IMO requires a “sedan” to transport,…from WWWH to the hoB,…where I believe ff “put in” on foot at a trail head (from EITHER trail head in my solve):

          • inthechaseto – That is for my “Forrest’s Plan A” solve,…where he feels pretty good,…isn’t too tired,…and hikes a “few miles” to hide the bronze chest,…in two trips,…in one afternoon.

            He drives that “sedan” from my/Dal’s WWWH to my “below the home of Brown” (which is one of TWO trail heads – there are TWO ways to go “alone in there”). They are both a “human trail”,…and they both lead to my search area,…where there are several additional directional blazes (like on a treasure map). The hidey space is probaly about 200 ft. from the last blaze. And from the “human trail”. That’s nice. 🙂

          • E –

            200 ft IMO is way to close …to people….
            Which IMO again is the main reason he did not even think of that area. And a few, like two miles in and out – twice – is not a happening scenario. So, there you have my very un expert opinion which I’m sure you didn’t want.

          • inthechaseto –

            “Searchers have been within 200 feet”

            “There have been some who have been within 500 feet because they told me where they had been. Others have figured out the first two clues and went right past the treasure and didn’t know it.”

            I think those “searchers” were on the “human trail”,…just beyond my final “Double Omega Island” blaze. IMO.

            But you are entitled to your opinion.

          • inthechaseto – See also: My repeated explanations here at Dal’s of what a “few miles” might mean to Forrest. After arguing that point,…using ff quotes and maps,…the MAX was 4.52 miles. My one way to my hidey spot is 3.5 miles from the trail head. Not “too far to walk” for Forrest or me, IMO.

            But I did all that Math already here at Dal’s….

          • inthechaseto – I like to quote ff:

            Dear Mr. Fenn,

            You once wrote: “There isn’t a human trail in very close proximity to where I hid the treasure.” You also once wrote: “And in close proximity were stone projectiles and crudely made hand axes that could have been 30,000 years old.”

            Can you clarify for us your definitions of “close proximity” and “very close proximity?” (e.g. 10 feet, 50 feet, 100 feet, 500 feet, etc.?)

            Thanks, Milan

            It’s not that easy Milan. Are you asking me to carry a caliper in my pocket? Each “close proximity” is different, relative, and site-specific, as you pointed out. So I can’t answer your question. To an ant a mud puddle can be like an ocean. f

          • inthechaseto – And the Blackfeet were MOST certainly in my search area,…and most likely left artifacts,…per ff:

            “When I was sixteen, I read a book titled Journal of a Trapper by Osborne Russell, who traveled along the Madison River in 1835, just outside of West Yellowstone where Hebgen Lake is now. Russell, along with a few of Jim Bridger’s trappers, was attacked by eighty Blackfeet Indians near where Hebgen Dam would be built nearly a century later. After a brief fight, Russell escaped west toward Stinking Creek.”

        • Joe – And when I wrote “Alpha to Omega” above,…the Omega refers to the personification of that fish symbol,…and HIS ultimate death. And that made me think of all the prayers that went up for ff when he had a negative prognosis for his kidney cancer,…especially from Peggy and his family. But then he got well:

          King James Bible
          And he said to the woman, Thy faith hath saved thee; go in peace.

          Forrest Did say, “my church is in the mountains”. And the entrance to my”alone in there” and “secret where” look like a rock cathedral.

          In my church this applies:

          The Mass proclaims that we “go in peace to love and to serve the Lord.”

          So when I find the bronze chest,…at my hidey spot,…this line would certainly apply:

          “If you’ve been wise and found the blaze,
          Look quickly down your quest to cease.
          But tarry scant with marvel gaze,
          Just take the chest and go in peace.”

          Especially since that epitaph ff wrote is in the shape of a rainbow,…which is the first half of the “secret” ichthys fish symbol,…which when completed (like a double rainbow),…forms the Omega:

          King James Bible
          I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.

          • Joe – And yes,…IMO there IS a Star in the East,…at HIS Alpha,…and on my “face” blaze,…right above my Omega spot (which is behind ff and his fishing rod in that second photo):



            “Wise”,…no? 🙂

            Some searchers overrate the complexity of the search. Knowing about head pressures, foot pounds, acre feet, bible verses, Latin, cubic inches, icons, fonts, charts, graphs, formulas, curved lines, magnetic variation, codes, depth meters, riddles, drones or ciphers, will not assist anyone to the treasure location, although those things have been offered as positive solutions. Excellent research materials are TTOTC, Google Earth, and/or a good map.f

            Forrest – “bible verses”…”will not assist anyone to the treasure location”,…but once I got there with “TTOTC, Google Earth, and/or a good map”,…that “positive solution” helped me to confirm my solve for my hidey spot. Thank you. 🙂

      • E*, I have not gone into details of our 6 day stay in that area, for my search reasons…but YES! Of course, I searched the hill where refugees sat, cold and scared. Took pics of the metal trundle beds piled under a lone pine tree. Walked all the way down to the Madison and back. Visited the Earthquake Memorial museum, where a wall mural looks just like Marvin Fenn fishing. Watched the film, and cried. Walked the rock garden and climbed the hill above, on the bluff. You didn’t know. But did all that, and searched creeks and a canyon and a point with a fire tower, Horseshoe. I wish you had been with us. Maybe when we come in a few weeks, you can join us, and I’ll take you to a magical mountain, in MT, where my next solve leads me!

        • Donna M. – You did tell me about that MURAL!!! And I want to see it!!! Didn’t you confirm that it was Marvin Fenn with ff?

          And you did enter a contest here with a story about what I think was My Grizz trying your door handle in #3 at Campfire Lodge (I still think you should have won!)

          I will dream of going on The Chase with you in a few weeks,…who knows,…anything could happen. Thank you for thinking of me. 🙂

  41. Finnish is an ending. Try to find something tied to Finland.

    The only rules is, do not eat the poem.

    You cannot walk too far, or not too far without legs. So you dont need to go anywhere.

  42. What is important about Seeker’s post is that it has the potential to stimulate us to think about something else in another way, (if we allow it) . The most challenging part of this quest is not the poem, it is the demand of continuously having to question our brain which has a major job of organizing information and stimuli to make life easier for us to survive. We come up with a theoretical solve… And then look for rationale to protect it…So….. If we are feeling agitation or excitement, about trying to understand something… Our brain organizes it for us…. Most of the time .. We get feedback from our culture that shows us we are on the right track… That’s how we manage life…but..
    In the case of The Chase….there is no external feedback, except for what we give /get from each other…. It is VERY hard to come up with a different way of feeding info into the old gray matter… Applause Seeker…. Generating Thoughts.

  43. I hope I have not offended anyone or come off cocky? Right now I am preparing to try to go out and find the treasure…it will take me a couple of weeks before I am ready…during that time I said I would try to help others…I’ve seen JD come up with a lot of good thoughts and others! I’m just cheerleading..I saw Donna kind of almost talk herself out of her direction and I was just encouraging I thought…

    Everyday I see on the blog everyone talking about a physical geological application to almost every clue….not the case! Back out…have a drink…and start over….right down what you think you have and validate it..

    FF’s words are true to the meaning no trickery in the directions…the definitions of key words is what we have to figure out…

    example of what I mean…

    “And take it in the canyon down,
    Not far, but too far to walk.

    That line is purely directional with no hidden meaning and you will see that when you get to the place…


    “Just heavy loads and water high”…..what does he mean by that? Donna was talking earlier about architectural and art/archeology etc. so let me apply to this line what I might think it to interpret…

    loads…load bearing…winds? Is the place I’m looking for windy? And water high..How would I measure water high? Hmmmm in my dirty bath water it would be a water ring…I could tell how high the water was in my tub from a dirty water ring…

    So are we looking for a windy place that may have water rings on rocks or something? Maybe

    Back to Donna…I’m from the St. Louis side of the state…If you want to exchange e-mails, maybe we can go search together or bounce ideas…

    Another free be on a clue that seems to be quite difficult for everyone including myself….If you are over 35-40 then 90% have already seen the blaze but just may have not paid attention….begin it where …well you know!

    • Missouri Jon: you made a strange connection which I’m trying to understand. “loads…load bearing…winds? Is the place I’m looking for windy?” Where in the world did you get winds out of “heavy loads”?

  44. All,

    Everything that follows is in my opinion:

    Clue# 1 Begin it WWWH: Once you identify the correct WWH location “it” now becomes more important than WWWH. Understand the usage of the word “it” and you will understand. Once you have found this exact spot everything else will fall into place.

    Clue# 2 And take it in the canyon down: it becomes something that you must take in the canyon down, like Forrest has said he isn’t going to walk down into a canyon back up and then do it again, which segways nicely into the next clue.

    Clue# 3 Not far, but too far to walk: This implies taking it down the canyon in something other than our feet, so we must go along a road which is “it” in a car or on a bicycle etc because it is at least 10 miles or more. (TFTW preface)

    Clue# 4 Put in below the home of Brown: Squirrel! Everyone is so focused on Brown, when the poem first says to “put in below”. Put in is the halt direction change that gets us off of “it” and quite possibly “into the wood” But everyone is going down the canyon looking for Mr. Brown trout. Brown, in my opinion is the chest and isn’t that important at this stage of the trail.

    Clue# 5 From there it’s no place for the meek: The “put in” is the spot where we the meek get out of the relative safety of our vehicle and go bravely into the wood. This may also be the same location that Forrest parked his “sedan”.

    Clue# 6 The end is ever drawing nigh: I don’t want to reveal to much on this as it may give away parts of my solve I do not wish to reveal, but think of why Donnie and Fenn had to turn around in Looking for Lewis and Clark Chapter. Also simply to mean that it is close, and in my opinion Forrest walked from this exact “put in” to the spot with the treasure so it isn’t that far.

    Clue# 7 There’ll be no paddle up your creek: Paddle may mean “trouble”, so it isn’t much trouble going up your creek, its an easy walk, not dangerous. I could tell you more but then you would be in danger.

    Clue# 8 Just heavy loads and water high: Only things up your creek will be the chest and some water feature. I have said several times that I believe Forrest’s back yard layout is an unintended hint to the final resting spot. If this place is so special to Forrest why wouldn’t he mimic it, and spend his afternoons taking it in.

    Clue# 9 If you have been wise and found the blaze, look quickly down your quest to cease, The first part of this sentence is in the past tense and means you have already found the trail of clues (blaze) leading you to water high where the chest lies. (so it’s sort of a none clue, kinda like Brown IMO) Look quickly down your quest to cease, means you must first skim, scan the area to find the hidden chest in order to complete your quest.

    And that’s it folks, the other information in to poem is merely playing a supporting role in giving us the WHO, WHAT and WHY which unfortunately does not get one “closer” to the chest. and what does is the WHERE.

    The greater part of knowledge is knowing those things not worthy of knowing” – Marvin Fenn

    If you remove all that we already know from the poem, what you are left with is what is worthy of knowing.


    • All,

      Here is my supporting data to back up my thoughts on what I believe the nine clues are, and in my opinion this is in the spirit of this thread as it is not a popular take on the poem.


      litterateOne on July 21, 2016 at 5:15 pm said:


      Catch of the day:

      “The greater part of knowledge is knowing those things not worthy of knowing” – Marvin Fenn

      In this post I will attempt to extract those items which do not assist one in locating Forrest’s secret spot, from those things which may be the actual clues that will get one “closer”.

      Stanza 1:

      “As I have gone alone in there, and with my treasures bold, I can keep my secret where and hint of riches new and old.”

      Come on we all already know he went alone to hide the treasure somewhere “out” there, so there is no need for him to repeat himself. Therefore, I interpret this as Forrest describing that he has placed his autobiography and hair strands (I have gone alone) in the chest along with his treasures. He then uses what I believe is a rhetorical question (I can keep my secret where, and…) which directs us to his poem and TTOTC book. So, I do not see a clue in this stanza that leads one “closer” to his secret spot and treasure.

      (*there is a good thread on this topic by “Mindy” on another unsaid blog, look quickly down)

      Stanza 5:

      “So why is it that I must go, and leave my trove for all to seek? The answers I already know, I’ve done it tired and now I’m weak.”

      The word so when used to lead a sentence is called a “discourse marker”, It’s used by a writer to refer to information that both writer and reader have prior knowledge of. In the poem Forrest first uses the word so to refer back to why he must go and leave his trove for all to seek. Forrest is rhetorically asking us to recall why he has to go and leave his collection for all to seek. We know from TTOTC and the many interviews, that he wants to pass on his thrill and love of searching and collection things before he passes, but then the says “The answers I already know,” What are the answers? Are they, “the thrill is more important than the quarry” or “we are all here for the benefit of others” I’m not fully sure if it is one of those, both or another altogether. He then ends that stanza with “I have done it tired and now I’m week” this is quite possibly the answer to his question of why he must go and leave his trove for all to seek, because he has had his thrill (I have done it), is old (tired) and prepared for death (now I’m weak).

      So the line/stanza appears to a rhetorical question, it is one that he knows the “answers” to, but is persuading thought in his answer, “I’ve done it tired and now I’m weak.” So in my opinion this line and the entire 5th stanza does not provide any clues, but is giving us the reason why he has created the chase, and at the same time reminding us what should be important in our lives.

      Stanza 6:

      “So hear me all and listen good,”

      The so used in this line is in my opinion both to start the poems conclusion and also to refer back to previous knowledge gained in the poem and in the book.

      Another definition of listen is to “hearken” Literary to give heed or attention to what is said; listen. heed: careful attention; notice; observation

      Hear and listen seem to have the same definition but they do not:

      Hear is to physically acknowledge a sound, listen is to pay close attention or concentrate on what we physically hear.

      “Your effort will be worth the cold, If you are brave and in the wood, I give you title to the gold”

      This last part of the Stanza and the poem itself, is just, in my opinion, a recap of what we already know, that the treasure we seek is out in the woods, and our effort looking for it out in the woods will be worth it, and finders keepers. Much like Stanza 5, i do not believe there are any clues to be found within this entire Stanza.”

      Think, the idiom “out in the cold” means to be outside, in the cold.

      So I am of the opinion that Stanza 1, 5 and 6 do not contain any clues that will lead one to the secret location of the chest but may give us the “who, what, and why”, and Stanza’s 2, 3 and 4 are “where” the 9 clues reside.

      9 clues in my opinion:

      1. Begin is where warm waters halt
      2. Take it in the canyon down
      3. Not far, but too far to walk
      4. Put in below the home of Brown
      5. From there it’s no place for the meek
      6. There’ll be no paddle up your creek
      7. Just heavy loads and water high
      8. If you have been wise and found the blaze, look quickly down
      9. Marvel gaze


      My thoughts have changed on the ending of the nine clues as you can see.

      I see marvel gaze as the surprise look we will have on our face when we find the chest and that in my opinion is no longer a clue. I have obviously added “the end is ever drawing nigh”


      • Be VERY careful where you think you get good info, I stopped reading when I thought it unsafe. I hope I’m wrong in my assessment but I am erasing nine months worth of memory and refreshing my solution to better fit the palate. This is the Internet and that says it all. Good Luck.

        • strawshadow,

          I don’t understand you post, where do you think I am getting my information? What part do you see as unsafe? please explain.


          • I think my point was and where the confusion lies is in the Internet. Mr. Fenn has said read the blogs for entertainment. He said that for a reason. And to be honest with you, you should be wary about me, and I’m probably ONE of the most truthful real people who post. I apologize, I didn’t read your whole post and for any confusion I may have caused. Good luck to you.

    • All,

      Listen carefully (recall difference between hear & listen good) to the following link:

      Time stamp 34:44


      “if a person reads the poem over and over and was able to decipher the first few clues in the poem they can find the treasure chest, it may not be easy”f

      So what does Forrest consider the first few clues? There are many varied opinions on this subject, but the basic premises that Forrest puts forth (in the above video) is that if one was intimately familiar with the poem (reads the poem over and over) and was able decipher (correctly decipher I must add) the first three clues they could find the treasure chest. So, what does this tell us about the remaining 6 clues? Are they close to one another, straight forward, more easily deciphered or even yet more easily decipher when in the correct location?

      I look at it this way, I have previously stated that in my opinion the first stanza contains no information that gets one “closer” physically to the chest, but simply refers to the poem and the book as containing the secret and the hints to his secret spot. That does not mean that the first stanza is not or does not contain a clue in Forrest’s opinion.

      Therefor, is it possible that in this statement by Forrest he may consider each of the sentences a clue, and if this is in fact the case the first three sentences or clues would end with the line “Put in below the home of Brown.” Now as I stated in the previous post, that I believe the words “put in” are more important than who or what Brown is, simply because “put in” is a halt/direction change from where we “began it”, and from this position “below the home of Brown” the remaining six clues may be in close proximity, more obvious and or more easily decipher if we are in fact in the correct location.

      Now I’ll play the devil’s advocate a bit; lets say the clues begin at “Begin it WWWH,” and then you consider “And take it in the canyon down,” and “Not far, but too far to walk.” to comprise the first three clues, my above statement could still hold true, because if you could correctly decipher the exact distance that “too far to walk” is, you theoretically would be precisely located at the “put in” and this just reinforces my opinion that the words “put in” as a clue could be more important than “home of Brown”.

      I hope this all makes sense, my head hurts.

      “Once more unto the breach, dear friends, once more.”


      • L1,
        That makes good sense to me except for few being 3.
        Few could be more than 3.
        I like your post about the clues yesterday as well.
        We are slightly off but I think your logic there & here is right on.
        I have figured “put in” is more important than what HOB is.

          • Thanks L1,
            I wonder how many of those skulls he found?
            This statement makes me think few is more than 3.
            But few to him maybe be different quantities for different scenarios.
            We do know it’s not 2.
            – There are a few words in the poem that are not useful in finding the treasure –
            What’s tricky about this is that I think there are a lot words in the poem that help you find the treasure but are not considered clues by Forrest.
            Like: If you are brave and in the wood.
            I see these words as helpful in letting you know you have to be brave & be in the woods.
            & – Your effort will be worth the cold.
            Very helpful but not a clue because it’s straightforward. You will be cold.
            I don’t see these as filler as some have suggested.
            They do help you in finding the treasure but are not clues.
            Just my opinion.

          • LitterateOne – Excellent research of what ff said about “scant few”! That was very helpful to me,…to support what I think he meant by a “few miles”. How many do you think ff meant by “like me and some relatives”? Do you think he means more than three?

            And thank you for that King Henry V Shakespeare quote above,…I always wondered where they got the one they used in the Beatles’ “Yellow Submarine” movie. Now I know. 🙂

          • Jake & E*,

            Jake, you and I are relatively on the same page about information in the poem, to me in order to extrapolate what is important we must first remove what we supposedly already know, now this could be expensive folly on my part, but is a viable process to consider in my opinion.

            E*, as far as definition of few or scant few; I believe its definition may fall in between Forrest’s mention and definition of the words several and many. I’m with Jake on this, it could be more than a few but as for now it is just a guess.

            I believe I’ve said it before that Forrest’s mention that some may have figured out the first four clues but he couldn’t be certain, could be related to those that have been within 500/200ft and their interpretation of hoB or remaining clues were incorrect causing them to abandon those last remaining feet not knowing they had been so close.


      • Litter81

        If you take what you said in the first half of your explanation, and couple it with Forrest’s statement that (paraphrasing) If I were to tell you where hoB was you would walk )go) right to the treasure. So, I believe that your first argument is the correct one

        Stanza #1 = clue #1, 1st three lines of stanza #2 = clue #2 and alst line – “Put in below the home of Brown.” = clue #3…and if forrest told you where hoB was, you would be able to find the treasure.

        Just my opinion, but what do I know?

        Good luck – good thinking and STAY SAFE


        • JD,

          I like it, and it perfect makes sense. Seekers thoughts on not seeking to individually identifying what the 9 clues are and just deciphering the meaning of them poem to lead you to the spot and your comments put together makes good sense. Seeker if I misunderstood your intent please correct me.


    • All,

      Here is something to consider:



      Question posted 7/4/2014:

      “Forrest, What’s the minimum number of clues that we need to solve to find the treasure, assuming that we follow the clues in order?”

      “Just one Serge, the last one.f”

      IF my theory on what the nine clues are is accurate, then the last one would be:

      “If you’ve been wise and found the blaze, look quickly down your quest to cease,”

      And if one has been wise (past tense) and found the trail of clues leading one to the end IMO, heavy loads and water high then they are at Forrest’s secret spot and that was the only clue they needed to solve, the last one.


        • JasonD,

          Good point. The word but is used when you wish to stress contradiction between the halves of a statement. So what I believe the line “But tarry scant with marvel gaze, just take the chest and go in peace.” to mean is Forrest want’s you to take a moment, enjoy and relish in the “surprise” of finding the chest and completing the quest before you go in peace.


          • Then, why the “Just”

            If you’re just hanging out for a while gazing at the sites sounds and glow, why then just go? Doesn’t it seem like he’s saying just “GTFO” of his secret spot with the “just”?


          • I read it a bit differently – I read it as DO NOT stand around and gaze in awe at the place you are in, nor the treasure – you will have plenty of time to ogle it later – JUST take the TC an leave immediately before anyone can question you about what you may have just found

            Just meaning, the only thing that you should do is – get away from here!

            “Just” my opinion.


          • I agree with that, JD. I don’t know what the threat is, but to me he is saying: grab the chest and go quietly.

          • Windy City;

            The threat is that anything found on Forest Service land CAN be claimed by the government as their property. Forrest is warning against possible legal complications.

            Just my opinion


          • windycity, you said:
            “I agree with that, JD. I don’t know what the threat is, but to me he is saying: grab the chest and go quietly.”

            I’m confused on ‘threat’… we been told it not in a dangerous place, considering no place is completely safe by definition, but no added concern. So that is ruled out.

            If the threat was legality… I have to wonder, would fenn have us in a place that would make it illegal for us to obtain the chest… basically saying go ahead commit a crime. I don’t think so. If legality is of ownership, That is a whole other animal, and there is a thread for that. legal ponderings

            However, is it more likely there is no ‘threats’ ?
            What we need to consider is reading the full sentence and not just part…
            if you’ve been wise and found the blaze… do something… look quickly down, because you have to take a short amount of time to finish the quest?

            The use of comas after down and after your quest cease… gives, quest to cease to be an add on of thought to the way the sentence reads… [ any English teachers out there? ]
            Look quickly down, ~ but tarry scant with marvel gaze… This might mean, work is need to be done… something we need to do to “retrieve” the chest.

            Why would fenn have to warn us of a ‘threat’… in a treasure hunt challenge designed to get “kids” out of the house. Clues to “find” the chest, and bring the little 3 year old Sally with you?
            This is a perfect example of force fitting a single line for a clue or answer.

            It must be a warning; he telling us not to stay…don’t linger long, there’s a threat we need to worry about… Honey, grab the little one and run.

            Where the imagination folks, the sense of an adventure, an outing for the whole family to enjoy.

          • I don’t know what the threat may be either. It could be many things: LEOs, Just people seeing what you are doing, no telling. It just sounds like that he is saying: take the chest and leave quietly. Maybe it is just because you are walking around with a valuable treasure trove. Could be Grizz.

  45. Literate one,

    Supporting role? Careful….you just skipped over the exact location of the treasure in your supporting role….

    “Be careful what you remove” -Missouri Jon

    And that answer is supported in TTOTC book!

    • Missouri Jon,

      And that would be your opinion. So now, please do grace us with your obtuse non-cocky thoughts. I would more than welcome your insights on where in the poem does it provide us the exact location where the treasure is so that we can ignore the rest and take the chest and go in peace.


      • Sorry I was away….I will take that as a compliment thanks…You ignored the most important thing FF said in your rant…”Hear me all and listen good”….your thoughts on why to ignore that? That is the only command FF gives…

        • Missouri Jon,

          Please read above, that was not overlooked or ignored. Part of deciphering the poem in my opinion is understanding the meaning of words their relation to one another and the structure of sentences. I’m not by any means saying that I am correct, it is just another way of interpreting the poem in a logical straightforward way.


  46. Hello Seeker,

    The thing that Keeps itching my brain is, how many clues does it take to get an answer?

    I’ve been pretty quiet on this whole thread, but what exactly are you wanting an answer to?


    • That might be the best question of the day KD. I have been doing my best to answer any questions related this post, but I apologizes for not keeping up with most. { How Dal and Goofy keep tabs on all this, and all the threads is above my pay grade }

      Aren’t we all looking for the answers to what the clues refer to, right? So over time, most of the solves that others have posted seems to have one constant… 9 clues for 9 line for 9 places. I have always asked myself, why dismiss so much of the poem when fenn told us; That the words might look simple but he worked on it…. Not all words will lead to the chest, but it would be unwise to discount them, he felt like an architect writing the poem. that doesn’t sound like 15 lines are fillers lines.

      So along with the poem purist vs. the book and research debate, the 9 line for 9 clues vs 9 sentence for all the clues, kept me asking, how many clues does it take to get whatever a clue or clues refer to? What I see is the 9 line theory forces a reader to come up with a line answer for what they think might be a clue.

      Example; WWWH is only part of a full sentence. Why do we stop there to attempt to find an answer for just that little part of a full sentences? That has never made sense to me.
      So I tried doing 9 sentences as 9 individual references for a clue. But like the 9 line 9 clue group… that didn’t add up either. I was still attempting force fitting a clue just to make a sentences work. So I’m working on the assumption to try a different approach… the poem contains 9 clues, period, nothing more nothing less… add the comment/Q&A;

      “Forrest, Did you intend for there to be 9 clues, or did it work out to be just right with 9? ~ halo
      Nice thinking halo, I didn’t count the clues until the poem had been finalized. Although I changed it a few times over the months I think the number stayed about the same.f ”

      So I read the poem as a poem, with meanings/word usages usable for that venue [ a poem ] as many meanings and usages. I don’t count clues, but attempt to read the poem and allow it to tell me what it says. But this is only possible IF you can let go of counting or force counting clues.

      This at this point in time, this allows the poem to open up a totally different perspective for me… reading it as a poem with information and not ‘looking’ for what is and is not a clue. The idea is they will reveal themselves as i analyze the crap out of it.

      Did that help?

      • Kk, I get your thoughts now. : )

        Here’s my opinion/understanding of the poem based on what I discovered 2/13/16 at 1:03 pm….

        1/ follow directions carefully
        2/ nine clues are in the poem
        3/ other information is in the poem
        4/ you can solve it with less than 9 clues
        5/ you must know before you go

  47. Instead of thinking of there being 9 clues as in a number of clues. Maybe look into the word nine, or 9, and the clue could be within that.
    9 could be a metaphor, and maybe it evolves into something else. Kind of like how a butterfly goes through a metamorphosis phase. Maybe these words go through the same type of phase. Find out what nine means, and then you can start getting answers.

    Why would Fenn spend all this time on the poem, and only use a percentage of it for clues? Unless you use 9S9C, then it doesnt really make sense. Finding out why something doesnt make sense, will help you make sense of what doesnt make sense.

    • Hammer ~ “Finding out why something doesnt make sense, will help you make sense of what doesnt make sense.”

      That’s make a lot of sense… ya might call it the Edison approach. I’m sensing others may not make sense of that.

  48. Just wondering….do you guys consider buying a railroad ticket renting a car? I’m wondering if I maybe rented the same car as F….it was weird because I had to make two trips From my too, you see….on the first trip I got off…after taking care of my business the returning train on another trip let me back on. I took two trips from that car. Nobily. Using the real word car not slang for automobile. I believe F speaks the truth generally. Honorably. And clearly. So I try and repeat what I think I understand. I think it’s funny he’d throw his skeleton key and car cus over the chest while singing his swan song as well. Here is some of it:

    car (n.)
    c. 1300, “wheeled vehicle,” from Anglo-French carre, Old North French carre, from Vulgar Latin *carra, related to Latin carrum, carrus (plural carra), originally “two-wheeled Celtic war chariot,” from Gaulish karros, a Celtic word (compare Old Irish and Welsh carr “cart, wagon,” Breton karr “chariot”), from PIE *krsos, from root *kers- “to run” (see current (adj.)).

    “From 16th to 19th c. chiefly poetic, with associations of dignity, solemnity, or splendour …” [OED]. Used in U.S. by 1826 of railway freight carriages and of passenger coaches on a railway by 1830; by 1862 of a streetcar or tramway car. Extension to “automobile” is by 1896, but from 1831 to the first decade of 20c. the cars meant “railroad train.”

      • Why do I think I know what you are saying? Lol, puts a whole new possibility to WWWhalt. I need to look up “Sedan” and “close proximity”.:)

        • Look em up! Just a hop run, skip, trip, halt, and jump away! Why do I feel like a skipping record that just chasing after itself 6 times over the same true identity/meaning. This word goes right round baby right round this world goes. I stop at six usually though because at seven I become week.

        • Jamie and charlie – Since my solve is in the West Yellowstone vicinity,…and the Union Pacific Depot is where ff used to go pay to take a shower (= WWWH?),…I wondered if he took a train there to hide the bronze chest. That’s when I found this great link about historic train routes:


          “Look quickly down” to the right about the Union Pacific Depot,…and Gilbert Stanley Underwood:

          He also designed many railroad depots for UPRR, 20 post offices, two major federal buildings, and the US State Dept. Building.

          How did ff and Donnie get to Sun Valley in that “Sun Valley Gig” chapter, by the way? Was it a train? And since it was in Summer,…did they travel to Sun Valley by train from West Yellowstone to work there? And WHO was that “brunette” in their dorm room? Was it Peggy???

          Here’s a map of U.P.’s current routes:


  49. This may have been discussed before as a solve, if so, don’t pay me any mind.
    What if… the entire poem until the last stanza is describing the autobiography he placed in the chest. The last stanza would be the location. The end being the end of his rainbow (poem). The architecture comment could be a reference to the autobiography as I’m sure that could take some time to complete.

    • I have come to the macro and micro realization that the main element in the poem is water. Water in all its forms and CYCLES! So perhaps your thinking is truth in a certain path not specific in your conclusion! Meaning -possibly the location of the chest , as described, is where the area or spot would experience all cycles of water and its contributing forms? I see allot of altitude specific references to things in nature in the poem. Our bodies are 70-90% water and so is the earth surface. With that lens in minds view , I quickly look at all the potential water references possibilities in the poem and see roughly the same percentage. Hmmm! I don’t believe at all that it is in water, just to be clear on that.

      • Shane – Puzzled is looking at the Water Cycle also. If you Google ‘Puzzled Water Cycle dalneitzel.com’ maybe her post will come up.

        OK,…it is the second one down on the Google list. Click on that,…which takes you to the right page. Then do a ‘Control F’ while on that page,…which lets you enter text. Enter ‘water cycle’. And you will get to one of Puzzled’s posts on that topic.

        And now i have given my “secret where” of searching for lost posts away! 🙂

        • To E*

          Thanks I will look later. Haha nice secret where! I just had tat thought of water cycle from that ladies post. Sometimes newbies give a fresh view of old ideas perhaps overlooked for relevance. I see allot of relevance to altitude in he flow of the poem. For example : WWWH, In he wood, effort will be worth the cold, take it in the canyon down, heavy loads and water high, not too far but too far to walk. Plus FF’s comments to questions all scream Elevation to me.

          Tree’s only grow at a maximum elevation. This differs per region such as the West (where his hidey spot is) is 10,000 feet. So its no higher than that- as he has said later between 5000 and 10000 feet. So, my thought after all things considered for now for me this day today; this is where my mind is at:

          He drove up the mountain to the end of the tree line height . Admired the scenery and looking down at the canyon below, saw a huge rock that got his attention. The shape was unmistakable of the shape of New Hampshire! He wanted to have a closer look and it’s not that far away but too far to consider walking since he is already very cold. He went back in his vehicle and drove to the closest parking area because it is a park. Walked over to it from off the beaten path and saw that it was a magnificent spot near this big Hampshire looking rock. He either knew of the history of the area or learnt it afterwords- it is rather obvious many Indigenous Americans previously visited this area. He was alone when he was here! So, he thought in his mind to put his chest and himself here some wheres. He needed a perfect spot here. He found two rocks very close together in front ,a short few steps away ,from the bottom of this big rock but enough room apart for an extra large man to fit. One of the big rocks is somewhat hollowed out at and in its center. He climbs in because it is very safe and easy to do so. He notices at the ceiling of this rock that it is open but somewhat concealed by natures debris. He lays down to rest and thinks this is where I shall rest for ever my tired body. All the rest is just weather and topographic details. He came back to this site with his chest of bold’s and the rest his history! He never wrote nor told anyone he was ever there.

          There is no brown trout here,
          This is where one completes;
          The dark night of the soul fear,
          All that remains are the meek’s.

          This is my attempt at fiction writing (solve).

          I think I am done here now.


          • Shane – I like it! Especially The Poem. Did you know there is a Poetry Page here at Dal’s? 🙂

          • To E*,

            Thanks! I just wrote that quick poem at the end in synergy to what I had wrote and my interpretation of ,” from there it’s no place for the meek “. A meek person is someone whom has delved into their own darkness and fears. It takes great courage to do so and when a person rises from their tar pit of adventures in malevolence , they emerge in benevolence – Meek. The greatest power in the universe is the middle point of balance of dark and light-Peace. It is what I see in Forrest Fern’s poem . Thanks for the recommendations of water cycle researches and poetry page. I do know the water cycles though and I actually really dislike poetry. lol I brought up the water cycle because when you posted that email exchange with FF about him throwing the bike in the water high- I thought Clouds! I never considered clouds until then. It goes with the elevation alludes. Investigators always find ways to help people. Scientists are always looking for ways to help people. You seem to want to help people in any way. I hope you find your means to complete your Unified Field Theory. Integrate physics , chemistry , biology and sound.

            Thanks E*,


          • Shane – You are very welcome. I enjoy helping others here at Dal’s. 🙂

            And if you’re thinking about clouds and the water cycle,…maybe think also about Eric Sloane and clouds,…and this:

            “Now I feel that my father is sitting on the edge of a cloud somewhere watching. If he knows everything about me he’s pretty busy lighting candles, some of them on both ends.”

          • Thanks E*,

            I just responded on Key word section on this site. I must have accidentally changed my Default Name ,Shane to Shanedre. I just noticed after your comment there asking I am the same guy lol. My fingers move around erratically on this laptop pad sometimes. I must have put the cursor their when typing something by accident and didn’t notice .

    • Has anyone counted the words in TTOTC? That’s a neat autobiography in a jacket/chest covering….if only it was 20,000 of Fs words in there. Then the first stanza might totally make sense….actually all of the stanzas would. But dont listen to me.

      • It would be even weirder if one counted the double eagle/gold coins in the pictures and it amounted to the exact same number F is quoted to have said were contained in the chest. Nah….that’s crazy talk. Lol

        • And if there were two nuggets pictures that were golden and shaped like hens eggs….only bigger…..kinda like goose eggs? Whoa. That’d be super crazy. I’d definitely return any bracelet I found in there. Or at least send him an IoU

          • jonsey1 – Is that a Double Omega reference Jamie???? “00” (“double-aught”)? Two Goose Eggs? And Golden? 🙂

        • jonsey1 – Are those double eagle/gold coins on the cover of TTOTC “face”-up by any chance??? Or maybe,…”heads”-up? 😉

  50. I’m not sure I’m buying the grandiose big picture solution. I tried it, and it still gets pushed aside in my head. I keep coming back to the idea of a puzzle piece. Where the comments of “walked past the chest” or “figured out the first two clues…right on past the the other seven…” seems to tell me that those who have been so close, began correctly and were in the correct area but didn’t see something connecting the other pieces together.

    If the big picture is not the biggest picture we can find, maybe it aludes to how we look at the picture.

    The idea of the clues together as a whole. And when pieced together, fit inside the biggest picture.

    That’s my two bits

    • You know Jason D that is the same thing that bothered me as well……When FF said there was a person that was within 200 feet of it in 2011 I think was the first time…early in the chase…I don’t believe the person sent him the pictures…I believe his location is actually on the internet…I think he saw pictures a photographer took of his location….and not an actual seeker…My own conclusion though….

    • JasonD,

      In this theory…the big picture is nothing more than a certain amount of [ for now I’ll call ] clues. I like pieces of information better. That bring one down to a very small location. The question is how many clues did this take? So now I’m back to how many clues give an answer? I could go as far as to say… the second and third stanzas explain what fenn ‘Might’ {emphasis on might} considered as a clue or two as there locations, places, answers. I say this because we need to find what a clue refers to, as we have been told, but we have never been told how many clues it takes to get to a “Place”

      So in it basic form, the theory is the first 3 stanzas tell us where to be… the next stanzas tells us the rest. However, In my thoughts the rest is not what most might think. This does not change anything of order, contiguous, elevation factors, states involved, etc. But it does challenge what is a clue? And how does a clue work with the poem. But it might help by not forcing 9 clues out of the poem and mostly dismissing the rest of the poem as “fillers” some searcher call it.

      Fenn stated, “There are hints in my book that will help you with the clues, but a clue will point you toward the treasure chest and a hint will just help you with the clues, if you can understand that.”

      Yet fenn has called everything a clue… how does not in an outhouse, Nevada, a graveyard etc. be clues that “point you towards the chest” ?
      Later on fenn even called these useless clues himself. That for me is the problem… what is an actual clue? by using fenn’s term.

      I believe fenn uses one term, so he doesn’t give out what a clue or even a hint actually is, that we can use to read the poem correctly. That is our job and has been since day one.

      • @Seeker, So your interpretation of “clues” or “pieces of information” is the “big picture” …ok, making sense I get that.

        I do not agree that some are worthwhile or not, for even a null results is still a result. Logically, the null will out number the positive. Like playing battleship. If I can weed out the null values (even outhouses) I have a better chance of hitting a positive.

        About hints, I see your point as well, but if we approach it with a “battleship logic”, we might find more “hits” that could help pin point or at least null out the direction of thought.

        I am now just sifting through TToTC and have seen “hits” against the poem but there are numerous nulls against the poem.

        On hit I believe is the dishwashing chapter about dipping his hands in scolding water the pulling them out to see deep white canyons, then later hiding behind a tree with his secret pie. Is it enough to know everything, no. They seem to be good hits though.

          • Jason D – Super GREAT analogy!!! And I love to play “Battleship”,…folks who post on another blog where I used to post know that well. And do remember:

            “Loose lips sink ships.”

            We all should remember not to give too much away here at Dal’s…

            Or,…we could share our thoughts and have a really enriching experience.

            I choose the latter. 🙂

          • Thank you for the complement E*, I get that the loose “lips sink ships” and have put most of my cards on the table. Not all, I still have an Ace up my sleeve(or is it a joker?) 😉

          • JasonD – There is a BIRD on my hillside cartouche-like “blaze”,…that looks like the one used for the letter ‘A’ in Egyptian heiroglyphs:


            When I tried to decipher what that BIRD meant,…I thought of ‘Flying Ace’. That would then be: Star-Ace-Forrest-Fenn-forEver. 🙂

            “Life is a game of poker, happiness is the pot. Fate deals you four cards and a joker, and you play whether you like it or not.”

            I like to be the “joker”,…whenever I can be. 🙂

          • JasonD – The Wolf and I explored this ACE,…as being relevant to the “home of Brown”,…because The Wolf lives in Canada:

            “Captain Arthur Roy Brown, DSC and bar RNAS (23 December 1893 – 9 March 1944) was a Canadian World War I flying ace.[1] The Royal Air Force officially credited Brown with shooting down Manfred von Richthofen, the “Red Baron” (who seems in fact to have been shot down by ground fire).[2] What is less well known is that Brown never lost a pilot in his flight during combat, a rare distinction for an air unit commander of that war. This was due largely to his demands for a “breaking in” period in which new pilots flew over the fights just to see how they worked.”

            Seeker might appreciate that perspective also,…in his “big picture” solve.

          • I like how your mind thinks E*, tangent connections and threads. I see things similar, just need to find where to tie the knots.

        • In the battleship game, the main strategy was a process of eliminations or probabilities not usable.
          I can see the ‘useless clues” as being useful in that sense. But that would take a lot of misses to accomplish, yes? imo, ya might as well get the dart set out.

          We were told WWWh is not a dam { some folks didn’t like that to much, but life still went on } But even with that elimination, the other possibilities are too many to count. Unless of course, they are all one in the same… the other possibilities that is.

          They say it’s not wise to put all your eggs in one basket… maybe that is what we need to do though, in regards to the poem… the separation of line to line for clue to clue, may only give one a false security that the clues are safe and sound.

          • Misses have already out numbered the hits as no chest has been found and only two confirmed hits. The field is already getting crowed with misses over the years. The data is there, just need to put the white pegs down.

          • I can see your point about the eggs in one basket comment. I think it complements the battleship logic. For more clue hits in an area deserve more shots fired nearby to see if the red pegs stick.

      • @Seeker, I see your point about clues or pieces of information as the bigger picture but I disagree on the value argument or filler having no worth. But maybe that’s really your point.

        Even a null value is a value. Like playing battleship, the misses out number the hits. Maybe that’s the logic we need to use. The big picture of the Rockies as a battleship field. This could then look at the null hints as misses. Like all outhouses as a miss. This still has value, no “HOB” in outhouses.

  51. For Charlie…..you asked for it……the arch of the rainbow….

    sedan (n.)
    1630s, “covered chair on poles,” possibly from a southern Italian dialect derivative of Italian sede “chair” (compare Italian seggietta, 1590s; the thing itself was said to have been introduced from Naples), from Latin sedes, related to sedere “sit” (see sedentary). Since Johnson’s conjecture, often derived from the town of Sedan in France, where it was said to have been made or first used, but historical evidence for this is lacking.

    • rainbow (n.)
      Old English renboga; see rain (n.) + bow (n.). Common Germanic compound (Old Frisian reinboga, Old Norse regnbogi, Swedish regenbåge, Dutch regenboog, German Regenbogen). Rainbow trout (1876, American English) so called for its resplendent colors. Old English also had scurboga “shower-bow.”

      ….just look to.the sky and smile 🙂 zipadeedodah day.

          • jonsey1 – Yeah,…he likes this engraving:

            FORGIVE A SINNER

        • jonsey1 – He used a RICKSHAW then,…right Jamie??? Who do you think was driving?

          Oh no,…a biga is a chariot drawn by two horses. A man pulls a rickshaw.

          • What did the use to take them for a ride that shot the axle of Skippy’s old car? It wasn’t two horses…but I swear they roped something to bull it…….if forrest can’t get that car back for $2.50 (I heard it was only worth a nickle…black diamond or not) I’m really glad he eventually found a biga betta albeit copy of the original. I’d hate to get hit over the head for the bill of that thing though.

          • jonsey1 – I know it was a buffalo. I read the books three years ago, you know! And i have a Reasonably good memory for pictures. 🙂

          • jonsey1 – But since I am following the clues to match my solve called:

            “D’Nile is a River in Egypt”

            Here’s MY bigeh betta translation of your idea:


            Bigeh (Arabic: بجح‎‎; Ancient Egyptian Senem,[1]) is an island and archaeological site situated along the Nile River in historic Nubia, and within the Aswan Governorate of southern Egypt. The island has been situated in the reservoir of the Old Aswan Dam, since the dam’s initial completion in 1902.

            Even though ff said that, “the treasure is not associated with any structure” (ie. a dam),…it could certainly be on an island,…in a reservoir,…created by that dam (see also: my Edwards Point in Hegben Lake pirate solve)

            But King Tutankhamun did drive “biga”-like chariots,…and you might enjoy Anthony Geffen’s production that explores how he may have died while doing that called, “Who Killed King Tut?”

            That throne image I posted belonged to King Tut.

          • The problem with the “not associated with any structure” quote is, couldn’t structure be an organization? like the FOE? or any other type of organization?

          • JasonD;

            You lost me. I believe that when Forrest said “Not associated with a structure” he meant not associated with any type of man made “thing” like a building or a bridge or an overpass – structure as in con-structed – Just can not see the Organizational aspect FOE etc.

            But that’s just my opinion, and what do I know? Nada


          • JD…
            Well, my argument is this,…

            on Jenny’s blog a question was posted Question posted 6/30/2014:

            “Mr. Fenn, when you said not associated with any structure did that mean all 9 clues or just where the chest sits?

            Thanks, d

            Yes d, it means the treasure is not hidden in or about a structure. Google “structure” for more information.f”

            When googled, I find,
            “the arrangement of and relations between the parts or elements of something complex.”

            “the quality of being organized.”

            construction, form, formation, shape, composition, anatomy, makeup, constitution; organization, system, arrangement, design, framework, configuration, pattern
            “the structure of local government”

            I doubt… that this is the intent that Mr. Fenn is expressing in his comment, but we play with Homonyms and synonyms on the forums all the time. This is a mere play on the definition of the word.

          • JasonD – Because of my “home of DAN Brown” solve,…I wondered if ff was a member of a Masonic order. So yes,…that “structure” thought came to me,…and then I discounted it when he made that comment to eliminate that possibility.

            But then again,…he was referring to the “treasure” and not himself in that statement. I remember ff saying he had lunch at an Elks Lodge once,…but they are not Masons.

          • I did see a few Masonic connections as well but I ran across the comment on MW where specifically said he was not a member.

            Dan Brown solve… and here I was looking into a Charlie Brown solve:)

      • Funny you say that..FennShui “so he used his chair to hide the chest?”…..technically IMHO in a word…yes.

        I believe a mummy has had a hand in it as well. And possibly still does. FENN himself may not even be sure at this point.

        You can quote me on that.

          • jonsey1 – And do you realize that I reiterated that my “face” blaze looks like a vertical cartouche?

            This is all from a version of my solve called:

            “D’Nile is a River in Egypt”

            Where ‘Forrest’s thumb’ or ‘Forest’s thumb’ (the one named for the creek there),…becomes something ‘golden’,…from that story where Osiris was chopped into pieces by his brother, Set,…and Isis had to find them and put him back together.

          • I really REALLY like the golden lions supporting the handgrips. Dang! Now THAT there’s some architecture. Sweet find EStar bunny!

          • E* I assume you have seen the logo for the Rio Grande Press. Nice publishers there. I’d provide a link but prefer my nonsensical babble to remain as such….without short cuts. You, however, may enjoy looking it up. Hope it brings you joy and thought forwhatever it’s worth

          • jonsey1 – Thank you for the compliment. And I used to always be a “meek bunny” on the blogs,…here on The Chase,…but no longer. I have learned to be, “brave and in the wood”,…except when it comes to putting BOG,…to go to my spot. Oh well…

          • jonsey1 – Do you mean:

            Rio Grand Books and LPD Press?

            If so,…the logo looks like Hegben Lake with mountains in the background to me. Here is one of their award winning books:

            Second Place, Children’s Nonfiction: “What Makes a Rainbow? by Ross Van Dusen

          • Ha! I love it. I usually stay in the state of CONFUSION though…. or it may seem so.

          • Fennshui – I plan to bring a Big Ball of String along in my backpack,…whenEVER I get to put BOG at my spot,…because:

            1) I don’t want to get lost in my A-maze-ing search area,…so I can just tie one end to a recognizable landmark.
            2) I want to make sure I have a straight-line tangent from my Double Omega Island to my Pyramid-like hidey spot,…that is at least 200 feet long.

            How big do you think that ball will be in my backpack???

          • FenngShui – Holy Moly! Since we are discussing Greek mythology,…and there are Grizzes “in the wood” at my spot (no place for this “meek bunny” Jamie!),…I also found this reference,…when I was looking at a Molybdenum mine not too far from my search area,…as a potential “home of Brown”:

            “Moly (herb) Moly (Greek: μῶλυ, [môly]) is a magical herb mentioned in book 10 of Homer’s Odyssey. In the story, Hermes gave this herb to Odysseus to protect him from Circe’s magic when he went to her home to rescue his friends.”

            “In Homer’s Odyssey, Circe is described as living in a mansion that stands in the middle of a clearing in a dense wood. Around the house prowled strangely docile lions and wolves, the drugged victims of her magic.”

            If Jake goes “alone in there” to my hidey spot,…he betta watch out for Circe, the lions the wolves AND My Grizz! :-0

    • lol, who needs wordnik…? I use the “halo” rainbow. 22 degrees. Sitting at the middle cairn of the Wyoming Med. Wheel. 24th spoke, extend a tangent. Will be 22 degrees. To X. Dancing with the stars “arrow”.

      • Is a row technically distinct from a paddle? An oar needs arrow to get one nigh, right? And a paddle takes a stroke to do the same but different? Tennis following nine quickly

          • E* I can’t comment on your pictorial labyrinth link up there…
            And I really DO like it….but can you help me understand something please? With ALL the slaughtering of man and centaur going on both inside and outside the maize, how come the guards are just asking out front playing a child’s game singing “open shut them open shut them give a little clap” why didn’t they get fired for that type of job negligence? The whole painting makes no sense. Please….do explain,…

          • E* and johnsey1, Thank you for your time. It has been nice to converse. It’s not so cold here anymore. I got really tired of listening to my own crickets. Thanks again

          • jonsey1 – Yes,…I caught your ‘maize’ and ‘maze’ homonyms cryptic post previously. I just needed a good excuse like the one from FenngShui,…about the Ball of String,…to post that picture. 🙂

            One of those “guards” out front is Ariadne,…the one who gave the Ball of String to that guy, Theseus,…the one inside the labyrinth fighting the Minotaur. The other one looks to have been a potential victim:

            “Ariadne (/æriˈædniː/; Greek: Ἀριάδνη; Latin: Ariadne), in Greek mythology, was the daughter of Minos, King of Crete,[1] Son of Zeus and his queen Pasiphaë, daughter of Helios.[2] She is mostly associated with mazes and labyrinths because of her involvement in the myths of the Minotaur and Theseus. Her father put her in charge of the labyrinth where sacrifices were made as part of reparations (either to Poseidon or to Athena, depending on the version of the myth); later, she helped Theseus overcome the Minotaur and save the potential sacrificial victims. In other stories, she became the bride of the god Dionysus, with the question of her being mortal or a goddess varying in those accounts.”

            Personally I wouldn’t marry a drunk like Dionysus,…but Cleopatra hooked up with Mark Antony,…who liked to emulate that God,…so maybe there is something FUN there??? 😉

          • FenngShui – I have enjoyed posting here with you also. I look forward to continuing our discussions about the line in The Poem that reads:

            “And hint of riches new and old”

            I enjoy researching ancient myths and cultures very much. And I have never learned so much in the past three plus years about those topics and everything else until I joined The Chase! I am thankful to Forrest and all those who maintain and monitor these blogs,…like Dal and Goofy,…to make that spark possible. 🙂

            And this for you from Einstein:

            “If at first, the idea is not absurd, then there is no hope for it.”

            I like that one. 🙂

        • Owwww, my brain hurts…but wait, what if the strings on the racket are broken? I’m not shouting. Then it would be one big joke/r. Which is what we were dealt in the first place…who’s in second? Are we talking baseball again.

          • I’m not sure myself…..but certainly it can’t hurt to make like tomatoes and use our cages for good. I hear they work on wooden tennis rackets to keep the strings in tact as well. But Who knows- or at least claims to have known first.

        • charlie – If so,…that picture may be reversed. If you look at the mirror image,…one Gypsy looks like her body is in the shape of the letter ‘F’ and the other looks like she is making the shape of the letter ‘E’. I just noticed that…

          • E, nope, not the pic. If you like looking at the “mirror images” of the pics, I would suggest: TFTW map, kids playing marbles, eric Sloane painting, (the one f shows, not the original), and a picture of “my” blaze,(which you don’t have).:)

            The Eddy diagram and med wheel thing is something outside the poem but not the book. It goes together with page 137. It’s a general map to “X”. (“X” being the coordinates that “Y” goes, not the chest spot) Dancing with the stars. I think it’s where a bell is buried. The tangent line is also a number f has used.

          • charlie – Thank you for sharing all that great info.! Could you please post all the mirror images of the photos you mentioned HERE please??? And the picture on page 137? That would just make it Soooo much easier for us we-no-got-the-books people. 🙂

            And about those “kids playing marbles”,…I once invited ff to go on The Chase with me (because I am afraid of My Grizz),…and I asked him to bring his special marble collection,…so we could play a game of ‘Ringer’ at my Double Omega Island for the Bronze Chest. Here’s the picture that goes with my offer to ff:


            I like the expression on that red-headed little girls face. She’s determined to win. And so am I. 🙂

          • charlie – And speaking of the bronze bells and jars,…I shared solutions with ff for locations for every one of them,…with explanations for proposed contents for the jars,…and I coordinated locations with the inscriptions and illustrations on each (which is why I thought he coined the term “Diggin Gypsy” for me in that contest a few months after that email I sent).

            For example, the bell below had a $50 Gold Piece attached to the clapper,…and was buried in an area across from the Firehole Ranch in a heart-shaped grove of trees. That’s when I imagined going out there on their pontoon boat,…and doing the silent dig thing with three people at midnight under a full moon,…ala the Captain Kidd legend. If we found the bronze bell before we dug down deeper to locate the bronze chest,…and rang the bell as instructed,…the bronze chest would disappear forever (also per the legend). But we’d still have ff’s $50 Gold Piece,…so that would be good. 🙂

            “Ring the bell loudly – for he who dies with over fifty dollers is a failure.”


            I like how he spelled that “dollers” word with an ‘e’. 🙂

  52. The clues are “contiguous” per FF in Moby Dickens YouTube deal around 45 min mark (There-about’s plus or minus)….Bigger Picture that IMO you have to be in the right search area to see…..and it took me over 100 times in same area to see it…felt pretty stupid, but trust me it’s one of those can’t see the Forrest thru the trees deal…


    • Joad,
      JasonD and I where chatting about the same thing… big picture, and I read your comment… and it made me ask myself yet another question. Is the ‘idea’ of the comment big picture even about a ‘place’?
      We seem to do this a lot…fenn says something and we automatically think place[s]. Maybe it’s more about a life span, for an existence or time itself. Would this help in understanding the straightforwardness of the poem?
      Just thinking out loud;
      memories ~ existence of ones life, so to speak.
      fenn collect/talks about artifacts found of past/ancient time and who could have made that little arrow head.
      Spoke of the desert and the years of items and bones scatter together.
      etc. etc.
      Is there a theme here as to the big picture line of thinking when fenn wrote the poem?
      My point is… is it more than likely your statement; “IMO you have to be in the right search area to see…..and it took me over 100 times in same area to see it…felt pretty stupid”
      Is possibly an illusion, because we tend to only look for ‘places’ ? Are we that conditioned to read the poem strictly as a map only?

      I think it safe to say that fenn is a thinker… he suggest we do the same in regards to the challenge. Some may say, Seeker you’re thinking out of the Box, and fenn told us to get back in it.
      I’m gonna answer that hypothetical remark by saying… maybe the box is bigger than we think.

        • I don’t know what I’m saying lol.
          Just thoughts… Fenn was thinking down the road as in years. Fenn was thinking about whatever the big picture is. Fenn said he thought of everything… I’ll add, that some of the conversations about the everything comment has exploded into rental cars, who knew what and when, legality concerns, how far to physically walk, and on and on.

          The everything remark might be about, how to design the poem with longevity in mind. Thoughts of the RMs are still moving… to influence future generation [ for me that give those generation a good chance of doing what we are doing today…. solve the poem]
          So sure, a state of mind is a good term to use.
          Maybe just simply, a state of time would be more accurate with my thought.
          Generations of the the past, present and future.
          or as i like to think that; “Hint” riches new and old is, knowledge of our time in our past [old ] and new is the challenge to find, what someday will be that knowledge of ‘our’ present past.

          Then again… maybe it’s just old stuff in an old chest that will be new to us when found.

          lol… I’m sorry I’m not buying it to that… there is no flavor to that thought, no poetic relevance, no imaginations… actually it boring to put it politely.
          I don’t find fenn as boring, especially when he uses words choices.

      • Yup Seeker,
        “Seeker you’re thinking out of the Box, and fenn told us to get back in it.”
        Funny how those that think outside the box for this poem, think the box is a lot bigger.
        Are you sure your not in denial?
        Please don’t come back with a 1,000 word explanation with the same Forrest quotes & a lot of fluff.

        • Like I said, this chat is not for all Jake. Those who want to think that the concept of reading the poem is simply a map, for me is laughable. I might be over analyzing the poem… but at least I’m not pigheaded enough to get trap with one silly concept and fight to the death that it’s the only way.
          To keep it short and sweet… just for you and you alone… the box is the poem. Not all the other crap piling up.

          Politically Correctness… Everything I say is my opinion.

          • Thanks for keeping short & sweet Seeker,
            I have a hard time trying to cut through all the red tape & BS to try & figure out what your trying to say.
            I’m not saying your way of thinking isn’t correct. We really don’t know if it is or not.
            But it appears you are over complicating things.
            I am not pigheaded & have a very open mind when it comes to this universe.
            Some people wonder if I’m from another planet by the way I think.
            All the other crap piling up is coming from our overactive thoughts & imagination.
            Yes we need imagination but do we really need to be over-imaginative?
            I’ll let you get back to spooling out some more red tape.

          • From what I see Jake, is that Seeker is trying to define the box. With complicated comments from Mr. Fenn like big picture or backwards bikes, what is the box? How big is it? What information fits in the box? What Doesn’t? What’s not a shortcut?

          • Jake, give examples of over complicating in the theory.

            Did I use unknown knowledge. Did I use outside sources of different languages. Bible verses, codes etc.

            Is this theory out side the poem for interpretation?

            This is what I want to chat about… not a car, not secret messages, not in my solve my ego says…

            Explain your comment. I truly expectedmore to be honest Jake.

          • Seeker,
            If I have to spell it out for you again & again, you will never get it.
            You have already provided many examples of thinking outside the box even though Forrest said to get back in it.
            I understand your denial considering you have started working on this well before those latest statements.
            I see your frustration building & you are not willing to let go of what you worked on for so long & that is understandable considering the amount of time & money you have invested.
            Funny how you use unknown & knowledge seeing the root is know of both words.

            Your expectations of anyone are of your own creations in your mind.
            Expectations are nothing more than what you expect based upon prior communications & interactions that you perceive & that goes for anyone.
            I don’t expect anything from anyone.

            Your theory suggests to think in a way that resemble the Common Core Standards.
            How can 3 = one?

          • Seeker;

            Why do you need to demean people who have a different view of the poem than you have? Using terms like “Pigheaded”,or “one silly concept” are demeaning.

            I can express my disagreements with you without using degrading or derogatory terms. What is wrong with political correctness and civility?

            Does being crude and hurtful inflate your ego? How sad.

            If “I” were to use the terms you use, I would probably be moderated or kicked off of the blog.

            Just sayin’


          • Very good point JD,
            I tend to ignore those type of comments considering they only know you through a screen & keyboard.
            Probably not something you would say to someone in person.
            Unless you have a penchant for punishment.

          • Jake you’re assuming again… although I have been at this for a while, I Don’t hang on anything that I can dissect. The above is an example, and I’m a little surprised that someone has not caught the flaw in it yet.
            You say you see my frustration? I truly don’t know where that is coming from or what it is you think you see.
            I will admit it does get tiring, those who are so critical [ nothing wrong with that ] but don’t ‘add’ a thing to the “actual” discussion, other than how they have the most brilliant solve, their solve is correct, and noting more than hot air.

            So you said, I’m out of the box… explain how this theory is out of the box?

          • Seeker: “how many clues does it take to get an answer?”
            As far as I know only one, the last one.

            “I’m gonna go with riches as knowledge and give new and old, a past and present usage”
            Now you have one leg out of the box.

            “Put in below Canada national symbol the Brown Beaver”
            OK, that pretty much is a waste of a line & clue if you think it is.
            You mizewell say put in above Santa Fe.

            “semicolon might refer to semi has ½ the range… below hoB”
            I’m seeing shades of E.C. here.

            “Multiple meaning and usages of words are needed to read the poem this way”
            That doesn’t sound complicated to me at all…….
            Where are you Waters?
            I know you have changed your thinking some in the right box.

            How many times does the man have to tell you there are 9 clues in the poem?
            “This reading of the poem doesn’t count clues,”
            I know there’s a few of you out there that don’t count clues & you’re all counted out. Maybe you are stuck on Common Core counting.

            I might dig further, but this is good for now.
            Do you see the box now?

          • JD,

            I can’t help it that you dislike pigheaded…

            “~Cambridge English Dictionary;
            pigheaded definition, meaning, what is pigheaded: showing unreasonable support for an opinion or plan of action and refusing to change. ~”

            Maybe ignorance is bliss… Oh wait, you might cry about that word too.
            Ignorance definition, the state or fact of being ignorant; lack of knowledge, learning, information, etc.

            If all ya gonna have is another hissy fit every time I post… don’t read the dang post. Save a tree and put down the tissue box.

            Grow up!

          • Seeker – If pigheaded is an acceptable word, then you are a pompous, pigheaded, pseudo intellectual whose pontifications are exceeded only by the number of words you use to express a totality of nothing!

            And THAT my friend is MY OPINION.

            You are the one who needs to grow up.

            This will be my last response to ANYTHING that you post – I am going to be childish and take my ball and go home.

            I try to offer a bit of advice, and am met with scathing accusations of being childish so to make YOU happy – I WILL act out!


          • Jake,
            1) “how many clues does it take to get an answer?”
            As far as I know only one, the last one.

            Semantics… you can to a lot better than that… there 24 line, 6 stanzas, 9 sentences… That’s an end run and you know it.

            2) “I’m gonna go with riches as knowledge and give new and old, a past and present usage”
            Now you have one leg out of the box.

            An interpretation of words in the poem that line up with a thought process that the poem is of the past and the present… hence watershed of the Rockies.
            One leg out to the box? Just don’t say it… ADD an explanation… IF ya want to play the big boy game, you’re gonna need more than that…

            3) “Put in below Canada national symbol the Brown Beaver”
            OK, that pretty much is a waste of a line & clue if you think it is.
            You mizewell say put in above Santa Fe.

            All I see is that you don’t like this… ok sure. The explanation was to get into the lower half of the Rockies… The map now show that. While I agree this might be a stretch… it does line up with 4 states and the interpretation of no place for the meek as the backbone of the Rockies. It so far has a consistency with a flow to the poem. But your come back is week… “might as well put in above SF”
            Why we knew that from the start… we didn’t know the mountains where the Rockies or Canada was a clue from tftw book that fenn confirmed. Stay of on the after the facts will ya Jake… you might find the helpful.

            4)“semicolon might refer to semi has ½ the range… below hoB”
            I’m seeing shades of E.C. here.

            Already answered … Canada national symbol, just like the USA.

            5)“Multiple meaning and usages of words are needed to read the poem this way”
            That doesn’t sound complicated to me at all…….
            Where are you Waters?
            I know you have changed your thinking some in the right box.

            Where My waters???… Jake did you read the theory? But I can see that you want WWWH to be a single location and the first clue… so I’ll call this simply a difference reading perspective… OH wait, that is what this thread was all about.

            6) How many times does the man have to tell you there are 9 clues in the poem?
            “This reading of the poem doesn’t count clues,”
            I know there’s a few of you out there that don’t count clues & you’re all counted out. Maybe you are stuck on Common Core counting.

            This one is a bit insulting to be honest. You attempt to disagree that some are all counted out as if we have thrown in the towel… It can only be 9 clues in the poem and we need to keep counting.

            “So I wrote a poem “containing” 9 clues… You truly can interpret that as the whole poem? the full structure of the poem? 9 sentences… This is ok too… we really don’t know, we don’t know where the clues are, we don’t know how they work, that is the whole point of this thread.. looking at the WhatIF’s

            Jake, This is disappointing… you gave no real input to WHY this is out of the box thinking other than you don’t believe the possible interpretation.. I never left the poem, didn’t use all the things we have been told to forget about, and you shown nothing to back up your comment.
            But you keep repeating it…

            I’ll bow to that fact in this case, I can be somewhat/ little bit bias as to I wrote it. Then again it is only an example.

          • Seeker,
            If it was disappointing, then why such the long response?
            I do appreciate you coming back & bowing/admitting it’s an example & we know that’s all it is as well as everyone else has to offer.
            Hey, we have all been insulted here & there.
            It’s just about how you deal with it is what counts.
            You took it like a true human & I didn’t think you would change your POV at all even though it only took a few minutes to copy & paste what you stated.

            Throw the “What ifs” out the F window!
            Why, because it leads you to another non absolute.
            I know when someone is playing games with me from the get-go.
            That phrase along with most others by him should be ignored except for safety statements like the other day.

            We are all bias in our own ways & some more stubborn than others.
            I am willing to bend somewhat & meet in the middle, but when some people are so set in there ways, nothing gets done & everyone involved suffers.
            That being said, I do agree with some of your way of thinking but obviously not 100% as some would like me to do.

            Oh, Jake, your wrong there & that is not right. you Bla bla bla…..

            Hey, I got my opinion to, whether you like it or not.
            Don’t read what I got to say & ignore it like I do to most of the retarded comments here I’ve seen anywhere.
            That’s my honest opinion.

          • Jake,
            You spent some time telling Seeker he’s the one outside the box. How do you know you’ve got the correct box?

            I see that you provided a list of things that Seeker said that you disagree with. That’s fine that you disagree but again, how do you know that he’s wrong?

            Seeker asked for people to critique his solution. Usually this is an invitation for others to at least consider and explore another line of thought. If you disagree please explain why. Seeker has provided lots of supporting quotes. Perhaps you could provide supporting reasons for why you think he’s wrong rather than stating opinions that he’s wrong. If you give what you believe is supporting evidence then maybe we will all learn something about your line of thinking to the better.

            A launder list of beefs isn’t really a good argument for his being off-base, IMO.

            It’s great if you (or anyone) thinks they have a superior solution, but believing you’re right is not equivalent to being factually correct.

          • JD~ “This will be my last response to ANYTHING that you post – I am going to be childish and take my ball and go home.”

            Glad I got that in writing.

          • Jake,
            Nice tap dancing .

            Sounds like you’re saying Forrest’s statements are too vague and non-specific for your liking. If that’s true how can you possibly have any confidence in your solution? Sounds like you should just give up if you believe there’s nothing substantial to go on.

            We don’t need to move anywhere. The question remains: can you debate Seeker will reason or logic, or is all you got emotional opinions?

            The only reality is the lesson that’s waiting for all of us during the next search trip.

          • Colokid,
            Seeker is a big boy & handles these debates pretty well all by himself.
            I think he has a brilliant mind & does offer another way to see the poem.
            This kind of thinking seems to be uncommon & therefore not in the box.
            Yea, some of Forrest’s statements are vague if you have noticed this by now, you are living in a dream world.
            I’m fairly confident what I have but not overconfident as some.
            There are many lines I have pointed out & think they are not logical & use too much imagination.
            You remind me of that little annoying puppy nipping at my shoes with your comment here.

      • Seeker,

        I like Forrest’s comments about getting back in the box where our thoughts are comfortable and flow more easily, but that could just be confirmation bias in my opinion.


        • Litter81,
          My best response to that is ~ no BiaS at all.

          Q&A MW’s answer only to keep it short;

          “There’s a lot brain power being expended on the blogs by some pretty bright people Jenny, and it seems they are having fun. But the great preponderance of searchers don’t comment publically. Very few tell me exactly where they are looking so I don’t know how close they are to the treasure. I’ve said searchers should go back to the poem so many times that I don’t want to say it again here. ff”

          The Box… imo:
          “I’ve said searchers should go back to the poem so many times that I don’t want to say it again here. ff” “

      • Seeker – Another excellent post! Thank you!

        You wrote:

        “We seem to do this a lot…fenn says something and we automatically think place[s]. Maybe it’s more about a life span, for an existence or time itself.”

        I keep thinking that if we don’t FIND THIS THING soon,…that maybe a thousand years will go by,…and maybe none of us humans will be left here on this planet (especially because of the effects of Global Warming I have studied lately). And then no one will be here to read this blog. Bummer.

        In this post,…I imagined the Albino Alligators finding the bronze chest. What will THEY think???


          • E* truthfully, I read the book and took a couple notes, that I probably use for scrape paper later, But I think in my mind most of the quotes from others in the book are for provoking a line of thinking. So incorporating those into the poem is only for concept . so sure, maybe… then again a hint can be as vague as a clue if we don’t understand exactly what the subject is.

            A question I ask myself… if the poem cleverly written so the reader see an illusion? meaning; is the poem ‘only’ about fenn hiding the chest?

            I keep the book subtle in reference, other wise, I find myself forcing the information to work.
            My example was, why didn’t fenn say the Rocky Mountains in the book? and just the mountains N of SF…yet talks about the mountains as his church [ in spirit and contentment, even emotional~ imo ] and the river bottoms where dreams and fantasies alike go to play [ imagination ]
            So I can see that the poem might refer to the mountains themselves… for me that was a very subtle, not deliberate, but still helpful information as a possible way to read the poem… right or wrong… it brought on a thought.

  53. So, I’ll stir up some trouble since I haven’t in a while… a long while…

    If your were one of the people who witnessed the treasure box and it’s contents while in Santa Fe wouldn’t that person or person(s) have a comparative advantage over everyone else???!!! 😉

    Also, Seeker I believe you are correct in your assumption that 9 clues is misleading…

    Hopefully this post will make Mr. Fenn more confident in my abilities to move forward…

    • John,
      Out of curiosity, what advantage would they have over the pictures provide in the book? Other than they might have tried to pick it up or something.

      I ask this because of a Q&A that asked; if the any of the contents had any connect to the place the chest lays in wait… answer; no the chest is straightforward. You might recall the it… the one with the “she” in the full answer.

      And thanks for the comment, but I think you misunderstood. I didn’t say that 9 clues are misleading. I suggested that reading 9 lines and matching that to 9 clues is leaving more than 1/2 the poem as not clues.

      • They would have a head start… look at it like this… if this is a race and everyone can play would it be very fair if the people who saw the chest first had an opportunity to solve the poem first? What I’m saying is like this… if you and I were there looking at indulgence for the very first time would it be particularly fair if we knew he was going to go hide it??? We would already be in first place because we would know to look for the poem and have had more time to Crack the puzzle than someone who joined the chase later…

        • Ok John… Here’s what I truly think.
          The reason for not exposing if it’s buried or not might be because of the hiding technique of hiding it, and possibly why we need to “retrieve” the chest. This falls in line with my thought that…
          That If you’ve been wise and found the blaze, [being past tense] that there is more to do than simple pick up the chest from under a bush.

          So for me, there is no advantage to knowing beforehand about the chase or seeing the chest.
          imo, not only do we need to find the area the chest lays in wait, but we need to do something, that the poem might explain on how to retrieve the chest. This is why I think the entire poem is needed and not just 9 lines.

        • John — In my previous experience on a similar hunt getting a head start was no advantage. Example–Oh it must be in Idaho, lets spend 3yrs. looking there instead of the other states. Now when Idaho was dropped we have so many hours invested in Idaho its really hard to change your mindset. Then one might start rationalizing that Forrest is trying to trick us or other ideas creep in. Ive noticed this in certain Blogs from the past.

        • JohnCena – Argument can be made that those who joined later have a better advantage because f has eliminated States that early searchers were looking in and have a host of comments and answers that have ruled out a number of things that searchers did not have early on.

          Look at some of the statement from f about how he talks about what it takes to find the chest, it is not about length of time in the search, but how to unlock the workings of the poem and correctly figure out the meaning of the clues (whether that be just the poem, the poem and the book, or whatever else it is that people are using in attempting to figure it out):


          “It’s not a matter of trying; it’s a matter of thinking.”

          “Well, you don’t know where it is,” he said, grinning. “When somebody finds that treasure chest, everybody’s going to say, ‘My God! Why didn’t I think of that?’”

          Richard: It’s going to take some long, concerted research and effort.
          Forrest: …well it doesn’t take…you just have to think the right things.

          “The person that finds it is going to be a person who thinks and plans and has an analytical mind and uses logic, not someone who has a hunch.”

          “I said in my book that the solution will be difficult but not impossible. If it was easy anyone could do it. Whoever finds the treasure will mostly earn it with their imagination. I have done only a few things in my life that were truly planned. Hiding the treasure chest is one of them. And at the end, the one who finds the gold will not feel lucky, but instead, will ask himself, “what took me so long?”

          “If a person will think, they can find the chest; but the secret is to think and analyze… they can find the chest.”


          If f is correct and didn’t lie to us in these statements, then this really is mostly a mental challenge. Yes, you will still need to go search and get out in the mountains to put your solutions to the test, but the effort will disproportionately be mental, not physical.

          “It is interesting to know that a great number of people are out there searching. Many are giving serious thought to the clues in my poem, but only a few are in tight focus with a word that is key. The treasure may be discovered sooner than I anticipated.”

          Many people probably do not have the mental capacity to ever figure out the nine clues in the poem and find the treasure. Others have the mental capacity, but will be held back by their inability to be flexible in their thinking, or is it their overthinking. Only a few people are capable and have what it takes to think through this challenge and figure out the methodology f has built into this whole thing and then walk to and pick up the prize. I will probably get flack for this statement, but I don’t care. 🙂

  54. Seeker;

    I have asked you once before, If you want to take this spat off-line, I am more than anxious to have you email me at SculptorJDA at AOL dot comm.

    The blog is no place for this kind of BS. Man-up and write me so that we can each say what we truly feel, or iron out our differences like two grown men.

    The invitation is open. I await your response.


      • BB, I’m here to chat about the poem, Not to entertain anyone. If your looking for a soap opera… there’s an e-mail above!

        I asked for this thread to be posted to talk about other interpretations of “reading” the poem other than than, it is only 9 line for 9 clues. A simple concept that has seemed to bother a very few. As I said… this is not for all. But I hope we can get back on some kind of actual constructive conversations.
        As well as, I didn’t want to inundate other threads subjects, and keep those threads for their purpose.

        Thanks Dal and Goofy for allowing me this space. but if you feel it is getting out of context… feel free to nuke it into oblivion. I wouldn’t blame you.

  55. The dog days of August are upon us…Forrest has said that searchers should only read the blogs for entertainment. Can’t poke any holes in that….
    Has anyone ever found a five leaf clover?

  56. Jake,
    I moved your comment here, because the reply balloon was located near the moon… you said; “I think he has a brilliant mind & does offer another way to see the poem.
    This kind of thinking seems to be uncommon & therefore not in the box.”

    The first part is not needed… I just wanted it repeated. However,
    “This kind of thinking seems to be uncommon…” So to solve the poem we have to think alike? it must be the common collective idea of the majority or any other theory couldn’t be possible? So it must be out side the box?

    The world must be flat… because at one time common collective idea said it was.
    I like the lines in the movie MIB. A person is smart. People are dumb, panicky dangerous animals and you know it. Fifteen hundred years ago everybody knew the Earth was the center of the universe. Five hundred years ago, everybody knew the Earth was flat, and fifteen minutes ago, you knew that humans were alone on this planet.

    I’d rather ask the “WhatIF” then follow the pack off the edge of the cliff chasing rabbits.

    • Seeker,
      Let’s take a look at the meanings of:
      “think outside the box”
      To think imaginatively using new ideas instead of traditional or expected ideas.
      To develop ideas that are different and unusual.
      To think freely, not bound by old, nonfunctional, or limiting structures, rules, or practices.

      Now, which one of these defs was Forrest using or did he just mean the poem is the box as you had said.
      I spent a little time going back a few years & noticed your thinking has not changed that much & was wondering if you were influenced in the beginning to think this way or just your original thought process?
      I hope you don’t take this as an insult.
      I would personally see it as a compliment.
      I would be willing to bet that most searchers in the beginning were thinking simple & this has changed steadily throughout the years towards free thinking.

      • Preface; this story is based an actual event…

        “Dear Mz. Mary,
        The solve is difficult for many searchers because their minds think the clues are tougher to decrypt than they really are.
        Some say they are trying to think outside the box, as if the solution lies somewhere out there.
        Until now I have resisted telling them to get back in the box where their thoughts are comfortable and flow more easily.
        The blueprint is challenging so the treasure may be located by the one who can best adjust. To illustrate my point go to YouTube – Smarter Every Day. f”

        ***Note part: “Until now I have resisted telling them to get back in the box where their thoughts are comfortable and flow more easily.

        “There’s a lot brain power being expended on the blogs by some pretty bright people Jenny, and it seems they are having fun. But the great preponderance of searchers don’t comment publically. Very few tell me exactly where they are looking so I don’t know how close they are to the treasure. I’ve said searchers should go back to the poem so many times that I don’t want to say it again here. ff”

        *** Note part:. I’ve said searchers should go back to the poem so many times that I don’t want to say it again here. ff”

        Jake, Last time… Show me how the interpretation of the theory on this thread is out of any definition box.

        The comment[s] relate to the chase, more to the fact the poem, I think explain themselves. So I call you and your dictionary definition and raise you Fenn’s words…

        Now explain where the theory leaves the poem… All you have stated is, it seems to be out of ‘your’ box. If you want to debate what a clue refers to, I’m all up for that… there’s a 9 clues thread, odds and end thread, individual thought/parts of clues threads… Yet that does not have anything to do with the thread. It’s all about a reading of the poem that doesn’t attempt to take 9 clues as nine line only solve… and leaves 15 line as what some call; fillers-intros-endings-not in anyway a clue[s]-

        I’m will to hear and I’m sure the majority of blogger would as well… what you see in the theory that might not reflect the purpose of the post… another actual give some logical, substantial thoughts of this.

        You said; “I spent a little time going back a few years & noticed your thinking has not changed that much & was wondering if you were influenced in the beginning to think this way or just your original thought process?”

        Well, ya got me… I’ve been attempting this challenge since 2012, started chatting on blogs in early 2013, and in one or two days… you reviewed my postings for a few years? How many blog site did you go to?
        I guess I should be flattered you did all that…
        There’s no insult taken Jake, I just want you to tell me how this theory is in anyway going outside the poem. or is your box different than what i think fenn is telling us… I’m not pickin up whatcha puttin down.

        The End

        Epilogue ~ Everyone one lives happily ever after.

        • Seeker,
          MW July 31, 2013 at 8:59 pm
          I’ve checked a few here & lets just say your an interesting character.
          I also want to see who’s trying to BS who.

          It appears from those 2 quotes he is talking about getting back to the poem.
          The theory leaves the poem in your mind with imagination.
          I know what this post is about with more discussion, sometimes you have way of not explaining yourself to clearly. Maybe it’s me, but I notice a lack of grammar & spelling, sometimes I have to fill in the blanks & sometimes those errors lead me in the wrong direction, so your part of the problem when it comes to communication.

          Great example:
          Seeker said:
          “I’m will to hear and I’m sure the majority of blogger would as well… what you see in the theory that might not reflect the purpose of the post… another actual give some logical, substantial thoughts of this.”

          I am left to interpret what you’re actually saying here & sometimes I just don’t understand exactly what your asking or stating.

          I can’t pick up everything your putting down because it’s fragmented when it hits the ground & then I have to glue it together in a way I think you would see fit.

          • LOL… Ok I get a D- for being the worsest tipeist in ta plant. Translation’ worse typist on planet.
            But I’m fine with that because I’m still guud lookin.

            Sorry for not taking the time to proof read, but I get a thought going, type it out, back-space to re-write an another thought and remove more than I intended. I also sometime expect that those who have worked on the poem for so long, to catch up some with what I might leave out… I need to work on that.

            Believe or not, I hate typing.

          • Seeker, what did you mean by “sec”?
            What I mean by structure ( maybe not the best word ) is that there is more information in the poem then just the 9 clues…back on that in a sec…

            Can you see what I’m getting at?

            “I” can keep “my”

            my sec r et w

            The “whatifs”. Letter by letter, look for instructions in the words. It’s all my opinion, but it looks like to me if someone had those letter values, they may know the “sec” he is talking about. Just like what you were talking about way back in 2013.:)

            Oh, and I agree with Jake this one time, your spell checker is terrible. lol, probably why I agree with you so much. (and yes, I put an “i” instead of an “a”)

      • That could be why FF said …….the person who can adjust………….

        It’s hard to change one’s thinking….especially when one has to admit they were wrong. But, isn’t that really what being brave is all about?

  57. Seeker-

    Here is a thought for you.

    There was some discussion on this thread earlier about which clue was most important. Accordingly it was the last one…

    Now, following that thought process how could it be possible for that girl in the (I think Sante Fe interview) to already have the 9 clues without having the chest???

    I have gone over soooooo much information regarding this chase and followed the rabbit holes all across the rockies… I’ve gotten lost on getting back to the basics… until I had a eureka moment… so, hopefully it will help me move forward towards the chest… which I believe to be buried…

  58. On adjusting to thought processes:

    Hey, what are you doing up so late?

    Late? Why, F, I was up with the lark!

    Well, next time, try to make it to breakfast before it’s cold.

    Just a tangent of meanings I was on awhile back.

  59. OK, back to “unpopular”
    Popular – unpopular
    Common – uncommon
    direct – indirect
    Special – ordinary

    Is any specialized knowledge required to find the treasure? For instance, something learned during your time in the military, or from a lifetime of fly fishing? Or do you really expect any ordinary average person without your background to be able to correctly interpret the clues in the poem? ~mdavis19

    “No specialized knowledge is required mdavis19, and I have no expectations. My Thrill of the Chase book is enough to lead an average person to the treasure.f”

    Average person.
    No specialized knowledge required.

    Would we consider to read the poem in this way?
    Yes, I think it’s a very slim possibility.

    You had said to me:
    “the last location of the actual range. Try finding that. It ain’t where you think it is.”
    So, if it’s not where I think it is, then it must be someplace unusual where you must have specialized knowledge to know where it is.

    • Hi Jake,
      I’m so glad you posted that quote from Forrest. That should put to rest the “need” for the book!
      IMO of course.

      • Thanks eagles,
        Some people never rest on what people say.
        They will always find a way to justify there way of thinking.
        That’s there problem & would hope they get over it otherwise there going under.

    • Jake, I know many that can’t read a simple road map or like me can’t move about a computer program. So when I said “try and find that” to the location of the actual end of the range… I take in consideration most will not know that without some ‘refresher type’ of research [ not just point to it on a map ]. You know where he Statue of Liberty is, right? Can you drive from California to that location with no problems or do you look at a road map for guidance? The location of the range is not know exactly by all and is not easily found just by walking around. We all know where each state boundaries are, but can you find the exact location with out some kind of add information.

      Many bark about using the poem only, to say no research is needed. Wen it comes to deciphering the poem, there is the need to research what we don’t know personally… but in the overall aspect is known. Can you honestly say you know exactly where the end of the range is… without being there prior or having to look it up? Can you tell me where it starts even? There is no special knowledge to that comment needed, especially in this theory… fenn gave great examples of none needed information, yet many still look to the bible for verses, study head pressures, talk about drones, research ever book fenn mentioned, even check the Time Magazine archives in the hope to find which one he threw in the trash.

      Did that explain better of what I meant about that part of the theory? And yes, I was surprised to find where this part of the range might be…

      • Yes Seeker,
        That was a better explanation.
        One question for ya.
        Would a land surveyor be able to find this place?
        If so, would such land surveyor be able to pinpoint it quicker than an average person?

  60. Seeker, You’re a genius! I have a few questions: my brain is getting stuck on this question: Are you saying: the Continental Divide is “where warm waters halt”; and somewhere within the watershed of the Rockies, is the “canyon down” ?

    The reason I ask is because: here is a quote I found on Dal’s Blog, but now I can’t find it, so I can’t tell you where the quote is, or who said it.
    “In Dec. of 2013 ff told a searcher who suggested that the entire Yellowstone National Park could be the WWWH: that he was wrong . . . that it is a specific place and not a region. That suggests the WWWH could not be something like the continental divide or the western front of a range of mountains.”

    Given what was said in Dec. of 2013, how can WWWH be the Continental Divide?

    Is this your answer to my question: The Continental Divide is the place that there are “many” WWWH. We must find the one and only WWWH that ff is referring to. How do we find the one and only WWWH: The end is ever drawing nigh, tells us the WWWH is at the end (or the final point of the CD).

    Or am I totally confused?

    • Golden Retiever,
      In this theory the CD is where all liquid water is diverted downward. All waters being plural and by association of the traveling of the water[s] to be all and any canyon [ size doesn’t matter] that water[s] travel. This brings meaning to ‘Not far, but to far to walk’ as; the travel distance of the Water[s] to their destinations.
      I have not seen the statement you refer to, but if accurate, I would say that the divide is a “specific place” and not a region… while it is very large, it’s is still one entire unit Geographically, if you will. Yellowstone is of many parts [ water falls, geysers, river, woodland, grass land mountains etc.] being contained [ by borders ] within a region. The CD is one long area of natural designed with one function… water displacement. { although I would very much like to locate that statement } I don’t look at the given name [ continental divide ] as region, but a function that if broken or displaced would not work the way it does.
      This theory will not work if one counts lines as clues… obviously, and the point I was attempting to make. So lets say just for fun, the description above is clue 1. This in-turn may say, clue two might be ‘put in below home of brown’ ~ if we were counting clues at this very moment. Meaning that those who were at the first two clues would have been on the CD @ hoB but didn’t know it. [ hypothetically ].
      I personally think we won’t know what a clue refers to until we solve the entire poem, or what number they make in the solve. This is why I think attempting to force fit a line as a clue is faltered. But what this theory was trying to do was find the easiest solution without leaving almost 3 stanzas unused or as fillers to the poem.

    • Golden Retrievers: this looks like a sleuthing job for Dal, Goofy or Locolobo, but I’ve never seen any such comment by Forrest — in December 2013 or otherwise. It’s certainly not in the “Forrest Gets Mail” folders, and Dal’s WWWH folders don’t even start until April of 2014. Perhaps you found it on a different website?

      • Thanks very much, Locolobo, for digging this up – I had not read this exchange before. Perhaps Dal can comment on it since he is the source, and we don’t have a direct quote from Fenn on the subject. Putting on a lawyer hat, I could imagine loopholes that would allow Forrest to truthfully say that it wasn’t *all* of YNP, while it could still be a very large portion of the park (e.g. an entire geyser basin).

      • Hmmm! Interesting. Maybe the next question to fenn could be… what size area does wwwh refer to?
        I wonder if it would be approx 3 x 8…

        I guess I could write up another brilliant, one of the kind, perfect solution… J/K… wouldn’t want to give the 9 liners a coronary.

          • That is one thing I never worry about Jake…I’m always willing to look at this from a different perspective.

          • Well Jake, what is the definition of place?

            Does it come in one size fits all?

            On what scale are we to be using? We have been told to look at maps… what scale size map are we to use? City size… county size, country/state size… world map… GE size.

          • Seeker,
            It would appear to me that the specific place (WWWH) we are looking for is smaller than the canyon down. I would also suggest there are not multiple canyons from this specific place.

          • Jake, while the comment Golden refer to and loco found is interesting. You need to see this theory as all the clues connect in a way that, while they look like individual clues they are as one.

            In this theory the clues lead to one location… one that is still in the Rockies, one that is still on the CD and one that is pibthoB and one that is near the end. What this doesn’t do is force fit a location for each line that one needs to stomp out. No guessing distance traveling between points or rowing, biking, driving needed within the solve, yet still uses the entire poem.

            You want the clues to be separate so major traveling is needed. In this theory the travel is only to get to the spot. [ which might be a mile off any paved/vehicle access area.]

            So technically WWWH is a specific area within the greater area of the same, when all the clues / information is used. Just no stomping needed between points.
            It’s more about understanding than hiking.

            It’s the baking a cake scenario… leave out one ingredient and you don’t have the correct goal…. a single location.

          • Seeker,
            I’m glad you found a work around or justification to help you understand your solve better.
            To say it’s still in the Rocky’s & still in the CD doesn’t really help much.
            Anything or place can be force fit by anyone.
            I’m not sure you can claim that it doesn’t. I don’t know why your so afraid of stomping? Stomping is part of the solve at some point or another, you will have to put BOTG & go from point A to point B.
            I think you’re missing one important ingredient:

  61. Seeker, We can’t walk away from this theory of yours, and this way you are reading the poem. Your theory is too good; and you are a genius.

    I think saying: ‘find one specific place on the CD where warm waters halt’ . . . is different than saying: ‘the entire YNP is the WWWH’. I think we can make one specific place on the CD work for WWWH.

    Look at it this way: warm waters halt at the CD – we just need to find one spot on the CD where ff’s WWWH is. That’s no different than: warm waters halt in a hot spring – we just have to find ff’s hot spring. And it’s no different than warm fishing waters halt where trout waters begin – we just have to find which river is ff’s WWWH.

    Like you say in your theory: ff uses the WWWH to direct us to the CD (because when he wrote the poem, ff didn’t tell us it was in the Rocky Mtns.) Then ff uses other clues in the poem to direct us to which specific place on the CD. Like you say: ff uses several clues to point us to the same place.

    I’m not very good at explaining myself. Let me say it this way: I can’t say: ‘the (entire) CD is the WWWH’ or someone might slap me. I think I can say: ‘there is one spot on the CD that is ff’s WWWH’. Am I making any sense??

    • I think you’re placing a lot of emphasis on nearly 3-year-old, second-hand information — even if ever-reliable Dal was the courier of that information. We do not have a direct quote from Forrest that says anything about the physical dimensions of WWWH, and I doubt he would choose to supply them. Forrest might be willing to say the location is bigger than a breadbox (e.g. Indulgence itself), and smaller than any of the four states, but I doubt he wants to encourage high-low games that winnow down the possibilities.

    • Simplest explanation is all the poem / clues relate to wwwh that give a specific location. Each being a place of their own… but not understood if separated. And it still Contiguous and in order.

      I believe the poem tells of one small area of wwwh out of the many. So again this type of reading can’t be understood if you still have stomping to 9 different location in mind.
      And why most will not understand it.

    • Hi Golden Retrievers (great double-duty name!): I keep seeing people post that warm waters halt at the CD, as if by sufficient repetition this will make it so. But no one ever explains *HOW*. The CD does not halt water, warm or otherwise. It is a drainage fence: water that starts on one side flows generally westward, the other side generally eastward. At the altitude of most of the CD, “water” is usually in the form of snow or ice, which could certainly be construed as “halted waters”. But where does the warm come into play? Why not just say where waters halt? But warm water precursor or not, there is nothing special about the CD as far as being a location where you find snow or ice. Help me to understand why the CD is the one special place where warm waters halt, ‘cuz I’m just not getting it.

      • I would guess that Seeker is the only person who can answer your question. Have you read his solutions? Either the one he recently posted, or the old one – they are similar in several respects.

        I can’t help. I am as much in the dark as you are, and I have studied them both. I guess it is just over my head.

        Since Seeker does not want to tie a location to a clue, he may not be able to explain it to your satisfaction.

        Good luck in finding all that you seek, including the answer to your question. TRY to STAY SAFE.


      • Zap, I’ll answer your question. It takes me a long time to write an answer; so it might be in an hour or so. (I never said I was fast. hee hee)

      • Zap,
        You see halt as stop only, Yes? If so, this won’t work for you. If you want wwwh to be a single small location to start your hiking [ stomping ] this won’t work for you. [ not at first… it reveals itself later by understanding the poem as a whole] that is key to this theory the use of the entire poem.

        In this theory halt means a temporary change in direct. It means all waters, whether rain, runoffs, snow melt… The warm is liquid waters. Word usage is important.

        In this theory the understanding of how the divide works is important to know and should be common knowledge. and when you read all of the poem as a whole you see where you end up. In this theory wwwh is what the poem talks about, and turns out to be where you do start [physically]… if your looking for a specific canyon this won’t work for you, if your looking for a specific hob to ‘travel’ to this will not work for you you need to understand what they refer to… and the whole point of the theory. If your looking for 9 lines to match 9 location that you much travel and that is all you can think about you won’t understand how his theory works.

        I said in the beginning, his theory is not for all, some may not get it or want to entertain it… I have no problems with that.

        Note; when I say ‘you’ I mean anyone who is stuck on 9 line as 9 clues only. Not you personally.

        • I’ll add this… “there are many wwwh in the RM’s and ‘nearly’ all of them are north of SF. You over simplify the clues”

          The theory uses all the waters to find not only the starting point but the end as well. A specific area that is connected with all the waters… you just need to know where to start.

        • Just to be clear, Seeker, I’m not a 9 lines, 9 clues guy. Never have been. “You see halt as stop only, Yes? If so, this won’t work for you.” For me, halt is more specific than stop. It’s an abrupt cessation of movement (temporal) or a distinct edge (spatial). For the temporal halt, there is the added feature that the stop may only be temporary.

          “In this theory halt means a temporary change in direct[ion]”

          I don’t know that I would call a change in direction a halt. If there is a sharp bend in a river, you wouldn’t say the river halts. But be that as it may, in your theory ~what~ is the subject that is undergoing a temporary change in direction?

          “It means all waters, whether rain, runoffs, snow melt… The warm is liquid waters. Word usage is important.”

          Well, in this case the word usage isn’t important, it’s just redundant. Warm serves no purpose if your theory doesn’t distinguish 33-degree water from 200-degree water. You can’t tell me that if Fenn had written “begin it where waters halt” you could reasonably interpret the waters as being snow or ice.

          In the context of Forrest saying that searchers had solved two of the clues (or more recently possibly 3 or 4) how does your system allow for Fenn to come to that conclusion based on where someone says they’ve been? It seems like in your theory, it’s all or nothing; 2 out of 9 doesn’t get you anywhere. But let me ask you this: if not all 9 of Fenn’s clues, what fraction do you believe are solvable in your system before you leave home, or alternatively, what fraction would you need to solve before you could head to a specific location with some degree of confidence?

  62. Zap, I cannot tell you what Seeker or anyone else is thinking, I can only tell what I’m thinking.

    I used to think these people were crazy, who said the CD was WWWH. Until I read this theory by Seeker. Here’s 4 reasons why I think this theory, (that one specific spot in the CD, might be the WWWH), is worth considering:

    Reason #1 –In my opinion: When ff wrote the poem, ff hadn’t told us ‘The chest is in the Rocky Mtns.’. There MUST be something in the poem that directs us to the Rocky Mtns. (A clue directing us to the CD, does, direct us to the Rocky Mtns.)

    Reason # 2 – In my opinion, I believe the CD (just like other mtns.) does halt some precipitation. Some ‘weather/precipitation’ traveling from the West to the East, does stop at the CD (some ‘weather’ never makes it over the mtns.) Regarding your question: why does ff say “where warm waters halt” instead of “where waters halt”? When rain/clouds move from the West, the rain/clouds are sometimes warmer than the snow & ice on the ground at the CD. Another reason ff uses the word “warm”: reading thru ff’s books, you can see that ff goes out-of-his-way, sometimes, to use alliteration. You must admit: that line of the poem does sound beautiful.

    Reason # 3 – I don’t know what ff means when he uses the word “halt”. So I try to find another place where he used the word “halt”. Here’s a place where ff said “halted”: “. . . that’s the only PO box I have now. The other one I had halted when hot water poured out of my hot water heater onto the cold cement floor.” Does that help us understand how he uses the word “halt”? This comment by ff is similar to: warmer precipitation falling on the snow & ice at the CD. (Although the PO box is still a mystery to me!) (sorry, I can’t tell you where that ff quote comes from – I bet Locolobo can tell us!)

    Reason #4 – I have never been able to fit “look at the big picture” into any of my solves. And the ‘backwards bicycle’ doesn’t fit my solves. I believe ‘the CD’ is a ‘big picture thing’ and a ‘backwards bicycle thing’. Maybe your solve already includes a ‘big picture thing’ and a ‘backwards bicycle thing’; but my solves need a ‘big picture’ and a ‘backwards bicycle’. Therefore, it’s important to me that: I remain open to any ‘big picture’ and any ‘backwards bicycle’.

    I hope that makes sense; and I hope it helps.

  63. Thank you, Au-Retrievers for your thorough reply. I doubt we’ll come to any sort of agreement or closure on this whole CD issue, but I am happy to reply to each of your points. Your preface, plus reason #1:

    “I used to think these people were crazy, who said the CD was WWWH. Until I read this theory by Seeker. Here’s 4 reasons why I think this theory, (that one specific spot in the CD, might be the WWWH), is worth considering:

    “Reason #1 –In my opinion: When ff wrote the poem, ff hadn’t told us ‘The chest is in the Rocky Mtns.’. There MUST be something in the poem that directs us to the Rocky Mtns. (A clue directing us to the CD, does, direct us to the Rocky Mtns.)

    True, Forrest hadn’t specified ~which~ mountains north of Santa Fe, though as far as ranges go it’s a pretty short list. Nothing about the poem favors the Rockies over the Sierra Nevada, for instance. But I don’t see anything in the poem that specifies the Continental Divide.

    “Reason # 2 – In my opinion, I believe the CD (just like other mtns.) does halt some precipitation.”

    You’ve hit the nail on the head: “just like other mountains”. The CD is NOT special in this regard.

    “Regarding your question: why does ff say “where warm waters halt” instead of “where waters halt”? When rain/clouds move from the West, the rain/clouds are sometimes warmer than the snow & ice on the ground at the CD.”

    All rain is warmer than snow and ice. Again, the CD is in no way special in this regard. There are mountain ranges all over the world that make the CD look like a puny fence. You and Seeker are claiming the Continental Divide is somehow special. It frankly isn’t when compared with the rest of the world.

    I’ll skip over your reason #3 because you are force-fitting your own definition of “halt” to fit your/Seeker’s interpretation. Yes, rain falls, and when it hits the ground it halts. But rain is not warm, so if you insist that it is, our conversation cannot proceed (which is a perfectly acceptable outcome).

    “Reason #4 – I have never been able to fit “look at the big picture” into any of my solves. And the ‘backwards bicycle’ doesn’t fit my solves. I believe ‘the CD’ is a ‘big picture thing’ and a ‘backwards bicycle thing’.”

    The CD is certainly Big Picture, but if you’re going that route the geyser basins of Yellowstone are a much better fit for WWWH than the CD. The region is more specific, and the geysers are far more unique in North America than the CD.

    In any case, if Forrest legitimately said that WWWH is a very specific location and not a general region/location, then if the geyser basin of YNP is off the table, then so is the CD.

    • Zap,
      I keep repeating not all will get this… for example you want warm to be special or have an important meaning, when the simplest answer is liquid… not ice, not fog. You want the CD to have a more important / special reason … well is does actually. It is what created all those rivers, creeks and streams and is a climate controller for north America. It would be a much different place without it. If you need a connection to the poem you need to see the poem as a whole and not broken down in parts. However the CD is he connector to the range, the watershed, the poem, fenn church and the river bottoms where dreams and fantasies alike go to play… fenn’s rainbow.

      A connection to the CD in a more direct way, as an interpretation in the poem is ‘ from there it’s not place for the “meek'” which interprets to be the “backbone” of the Rockies. The other thing I try to explain is … this is a poem, fenn chose it as the avenue to present the clues. This give freedom of word usages beyond most other literature because of multiple means usages.
      Warm and halt and many other words use other meaning throughout the poem. and this is why, if a reader looks at this theory with stepping point to point in mind, they will not get it.

      I have said in the past I believe we are reading the poem wrong… we force a line to be a clue limiting / even eliminating more than half the poem. We force names to match what we think is a clue to make more sense to us, when I think all we need is to read the land.

      And with your last comment; “In any case, if Forrest legitimately said that WWWH is a very specific location and not a general region/location, then if the geyser basin of YNP is off the table, then so is the CD.”

      IMO the CD is a specific location on it’s own. but the theory also bring the searcher to a single point/location of an area on the CD of where to be/start … it just doesn’t have the need to stomp all over the US to get to it. You’re still trying to see 9 clues to be what you want them to be as specific parts of the poem… I’m saying this is the wrong way to read the poem.