Odds n Ends About Fenn’s Treasure Hunt…Part Seventeen


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787 thoughts on “Odds n Ends About Fenn’s Treasure Hunt…Part Seventeen

  1. The search for the SUBMARINE is getting hot and heavy. Many new odds n ends in play.

    Good luck to all searchers.

  2. HEAVY LOADS AND WATERS HIGH…iMO there may be a reason why these two concepts are in the same sentence.

    • I think there is a very good reason why heavy loads & water high are in the same sentence. Perfect description of WWWH in my opinion.

    • Heavy loads and water high do go together, imo.
      Like WASHING-TON. Or if reversed like the dollar bill in TTOTC, Washington Gorge. Lol.

      Or you can think of it in a more creative way, like “Blubber.” Lot’s of heavy crying. And yes, there is a place named Blubber in a good search area.

      Or even Queen’s Laundry. It’s a geyser in Yellowstone. A queen would have some heavy laundry loads, huh? And being a geyser, she’s got the water high, too. 🙂

      In my opinion, those connecting words refer to one place.

  3. Have any of you guys and gals tried to carry 40lbs of dead weight? If its in water, I want to know how you will get it out? One piece at a time? Just curious if you have given it any thought. I carried 28 lbs of lead from the post office to my car… 30 ft away… it gets really heavy, really quick. IMHO.

    • Be sure you bring a back with a good waist belt, and cinch that sucker down! Your hips can carry heavy loads much more efficiently than your back and shoulders. 40 lbs is heavy, for sure, but I’ve backpacked it for several days (when I weighed about 120), and with the right equipment it’s doable. Not ideal, and be sure to use the chest clasp as well, but doable. Or, take two trips and enjoy the ‘marvel gaze’ twice as much!

  4. Heavy Loads, and water high describe the TC and its contents, and where they are secreted.

    IMHO – Good luck in finding both – and TRY to STAY SAFE – JDA

  5. “You over simplify the clues.”
    Why didn’t he just say: You simplify the clues?
    Is he suggesting the clues are simple?
    They’re obviously not simple to figure out but the clues in the poem may be simple to identify.

    • Maybe the more important question is…. are the clues simple to each clue or the overall reading?

      People have told fenn the first two clues in one form or another…yet they didn’t know any of them… because they went by all the clues.

      This seems to say, one must have more than just a location of the clues to understand the poem overall…

    • Jake,

      ” . . .the clues in the poem may be simple to identify.”

      Yes, they certainly are, from my position.

      I could give the poem and the (right) map to a 13 year-old, and with very minimal input from me, that 13 year-old would locate what I consider to be the blaze, within a matter of a few days ,at most.

      That’s not to say s/he could locate the treasure at that time. I’ve worked it and pondered it and worked it again.

      Some type of understanding is required even after I get to my blaze. That’s where I am stumped.

      “Quickly down” is not revealing itself to me.

      Then again, I’m just one out of many . . .

      • unless it’s buried, and I’m not in that camp.

        maybe that is why I am coming up short , while everything else fits up to that point.

        • ROLL TIDE, if your “blaze” is something
          physical, like a flame-shaped rock on a mountainside, I fail to see the complexity or difficulty involved with “looking quickly down”.
          You would look down either from where you
          are, or from the blaze’s location, in my

          Maybe your “blaze” is too vague . . . some
          folks think the blaze is the poem. This is
          why some folks won’t fare as well as others
          in this chase.

          The above is just my opinion. Yours may
          differ. Good luck. Please stay safe.

      • Roll: “Quickly down” is not revealing itself to me.
        I think this is a non clue.
        Look quickly down is just as it says. There isn’t a question mark about the meaning of this to me unlike other phrases as where warm waters halt & HOB.

        • Jake;

          After doing a little bit of research, I found that there is an obscure meaning to these three little words – Look Quickly Down – that helped unlock a clue for me – It might do the same for you. – Can’t hurt to look at alternate meanings.

          But what do I know? – NADA – JDA

          • Naaa JD,
            I looked at lots of obscure words & found out that it makes the poem sound awkward & clumsy.
            I like to keep the nice flow. Besides, those words don’t seem to leave a question mark like other phrases do.

        • Jake,

          For awhile, I took those words at face-value. But then, I had to ask myself, was it risky to discount those words as non-essential to a positive solve.

          I’m constantly reminding myself about f saying “it doesn’t matter what words I use, as long as the reader knows what I mean.”

          How can I know what he means, if I don’t know what all the word means?

          How many times has f played this game : “what I meant to say was . . .” ?
          “and with it , he took my picture . . .”
          “what I meant was, he took my picture with it.”
          ” . . .and he was in trouble most of the time, the pick-pocket guy I mean.”

          So, from where I operate, those words might mean something other than what I see on the surface.

          I feel synonyms play an important role in a correct solve.

          After all, a synonym is simply a reflection of a word.

      • The one I’m stuck on is “From there it’s no place for the meek”. Clue to go someplace, clue to not go someplace, or non-clue?

        • Zap,
          From there – where?
          Sounds like from where you just put in below the home of Brown.
          Naaa, doesn’t make sense seeing you know where you put in, so it must be where you are heading to.

        • Zap;

          You just “Put in below the hoB” – so “no place for the meek must be a bit down the road or trail leading to the “END” don’t you think?

          Is it a clue? It is a place that I MUST travel through in order to get to the END – at least it is for me.

          Good luck in finding it. JDA

        • from canyon down he could be looking at the path in front of him. Thinking not far but too far to walk, and letting us know he put the chest in below the home of Brown. That would make, from there, where he is standing, continuing on , and going into a place not for the meek.

          Makes it the third clue, a divider of sorts from canyon down, into a place not for the meek. A “no trespassing gate” possibly. Gate, divider, whatever. If the canyon down has say sagebrush, and then you enter into a dense forest, or tree line. If you have a split trail, then the clue would be to go into the treeline or forrest. Through the gate…

        • Hi Charlie,

          Regarding “From there it’s no place for the meek”, you wrote:

          “Makes it the third clue, a divider of sorts from canyon down, into a place not for the meek. A “no trespassing gate” possibly. Gate, divider, whatever.”

          For me, if it’s a clue, it’s the fifth one, not the third. “Not far, but too far to walk” is my third clue, and “Put in below the home of Brown” is my fourth, not that I’m too concerned about the clue count.

          No way is Forrest going to have us trespassing, so that’s out. If where you need to go is no place for the meek, a literal interpretation would be that you need to be assertive or domineering. But I don’t see anything about getting out of your car and hiking as being particularly assertive. So I wondered about an alternate interpretation. Suppose you were at a fork in the road, and one of the trails was called “Sheep trail”: would that be a clue that you *don’t* take that trail, you take the other one?

          • zaphod, I like your way of thinking in your last paragraph. This way of thinking worked for me, and helped me arrive at a solve — in January 2016 — in which I have a very high degree of confidence for many, many reasons, including support from a few hints in TTOTC, as well as comments FF has made in his interviews and on this and other blogs.

            The above is just my opinion. Good luck
            to you. Please make safety a high

        • Zaphod,

          you said;

          The one I’m stuck on is “From there it’s no place for the meek”. Clue to go someplace, clue to not go someplace, or non-clue?

          IMO it is a boundary, a veil so to speak that we must cross, much like that which is found at WWWH. Both of these boundaries can be identified on the right, good map.


          • A boundry…edge of woods…if you are brave and in the wood…NO place for the meek, so a place for the brave…in the wood.
            And, yes, “what if” it could be THAT simple…

          • When the rest of you figure out the correct boundary edge/border , it will come as quite a surprise. I thought it was the CD, or a border between states. Nope! (Imo). I was shocked to learn about a different kind of boundary that I had never heard of, Couldn’t have found it in a billion years if I didn’t get the correct WWWH and follow where the poem told me to go. “Tarry scant with marvel gaze” is not the phrase I expected would get me to the border. But that is where the poem led me. In my opinion, I found a very unusual type of border I had never heard of. The writing of this poem is brilliant! So simple and straightforward, yet without the correct WWWH, it is impossible to solve. All in my less than humble opinion.

          • Donna,

            Much like where warm waters halts, if they are “warm” and they “halt” or are transformed by passing a “boundary” what do those waters then become? The same then could be said for “From there it’s no place for the meek” meaning “From” the “Put in” it is a “place” that is no place for the meek, the opposite of meek is what? Where did Forrest go alone in there and “boldly” with his treasures? Now he asks us then to be brave and in the “wood” in order to earn the title to the gold.


          • We just “put in” the water to shorten our trip which would be too far to walk the other way around… now we can’t be meek paddling across or we will miss “our creek” which we will have to cease paddling up pretty soon because the goal is ever drawing nigh and we can’t just float by it.

        • zaphod73491,
          Think of terrain, names of things and places,
          etc. For example, I considered a place called
          Bobcat Creek as a place where a meek person
          wouldn’t go. Other folks have suggested — and
          I also considered this — that maybe a body of
          water (a lake? a river?) is involved here, based
          on the old (biblical?) saying “The meek shall
          inherit the earth”. This suggests that it’s not
          a place of dry land. Try different approaches,
          but remember that a valid solution to a clue must
          be compatible to the solution to the previous
          clue. If any non-compatibility is found, then the
          entire solve is invalid. Think of a chain. For it
          to work, all the links involved have to be good.

          The above is just my opinion. Yours may
          differ. Please stay safe.

          • Hi Andrew — I’m no longer hung up on “no place for the meek”. It’s taken a couple thousand hours, but I’m close to solving this thing.

    • Jake- An observation I made long ago on this Q/A from Phil and f’s response about “you over simplify the clue”s and a “few words” not being “useful” is that Phil only mentioned what might be considered two clues: (1) where warm waters halt and (2) somewhere in the mountains north of Santa Fe.

      Phil’s question is whether or not someone would need more info than just the statement he made to find the place; the whole poem, another stanza, just a line, or a word. f’s response is all about words (one of the items Phil specifically asked his question about.

      I note that the poem says “Begin it where warm waters halt” and Phil only included “WWWH”, so I believe the “Begin it” is needed for figuring out the clue and should not be discounted, as f stated it is risky to discount any of the words in the poem.

      The talk of discounting any words by f also brings up the thought about “a word that is key”, the possibility of it being in the poem, and how it might play into figuring out the clues.

      Just a small thought in my head and probably not worth much consideration. 🙂

      • JCM,
        I think his answer to this question was about the poem as a whole.
        You know Forrest, he usually doesn’t answer the question the way you should.

  6. LitterateOne on September 6, 2016 at 2:01 pm said:


    I’m finding much significance in the line:

    “It took guts to go in there when it was dark with no moon”


    Bringing this forward from the closed comments place.

    I think it is significant also. How about giving us some.
    Very few have commented about this, to me it’s a big clue.
    You first, I don’t want to cut in line.

    David here

    • David here,

      “It took guts to go in there when it was dark with no moon”

      In my opinion this single line resonates with the following lines of the poem, “As I have gone alone in there”, “From there it is no place for the meek” “The end is ever drawing nigh” and “If you are brave and in the wood”. I don’t feel the need to go into great detail about proper grammar and word meanings, but as I have previously mentioned, to me “in there” represents a “place” that has a clearly identifiable boundary that can be found on a “good map”. A place that is no “place” for the “meek”, should offer one “seclusion”, long term protection, no legal issues with recovery, and lastly synonymous with the word “wood”.

      If you look at the history of the cemetery and what Forrest considers his “church” you may find this theory compelling.

      “Your destination is small, but its location is huge”


      • LitterateOne,
        I agree with you 100%. I do believe you and I are looking in the same ” location” and I think we must have both used the same research material as your name would suggest to come to that conclusion . I sure hope your “destination” is not the same as mine 🙂

  7. When building a dam…heavy loads are used…water high is the water contained in behind the dam. Most dams have a spillway…that may well be the creek with no paddle. I reason that ff said it is not in a reservoir or dam….but it may well be below a dam. El Vado may be such dam. Below that dam on the Chama is maybe the Home of Brown (Brown Trout). My lady friend & I are planning a trip to the Chili & and Chama area of New Mexico the first week in Oct. and would love to meet up with other seekers. Is there a place where anybody gets together with others to swap spit about the treasure hunt?
    “Walk soft upon the earth…and carry a big stick”
    -guy michael-

    • Guy michael
      I’m just gonna remind everyone that it has been said that it is not a dam. Those words were said a while ago. So just as cemeteries are not apart of the chase neither is a dam..

      • A dam is only excluded regarding a place WWWH,
        as well as a place to look for the TC.

        The above is just my opinion, based on what I have
        read on this forum.

  8. Correction:

    Doubt the Flyer would have any problem going “in there when it was dark.”
    Can cross that one off!

  9. A big fat ” what-if ” . . .

    What if the reason nobody has found the TC in six years, is because we are all looking in the DayTime ???

    What if . . . after one lines all of his ducks in a row, and is confident up to the point of botg, that person must go there After Dark, to locate the TC ???

    Anybody following me here?

    Any deer-hunter who is worth his salt, will get this.

    How do you find your tree-stand, in the deep woods, at three in the morning ?

    Did you mark the path to it ?
    How do you mark that path without someone finding it in the daytime and following it to your stand ?

    hmmm . . .

    • My above “what-if “, is actually a theory that I have pondered for some time now.
      I meant to test it on my last trip but, I completely spaced it off.
      ( I’m at the point that I can’t even remember what I had for breakfast without looking down at my shirt.)

      This theory would cause one to reflect upon the need for a flashlight and a sandwich.

      Okay, looking to possibly partner-up with someone who lives in NM, as I’ve not heard from C.

      If I can’t find the right candidate, then I will be hanging up my spurs here shortly. I just can’t do the trips any more. The increase in elevation is too much for an old worn out flatlander who lives at 700′, and has smoked a pack-a-day for over 45 years. And don’t bother telling me to quit, I like ’em.

      If you live in NM and are as serious and dedicated as I am, make me know it.

      • Roll Tide,

        Interested in talking further about working together.

        Ask Dal to get my email or give him permission for me to get yours.


        Mel Bear

      • @rROLL TIDE. I live in SW Colorado, and search in NM. My contact info is on the searching in NM thread. I am willing to help you test your theories. SandyB

      • ROLL TIDE, I don’t think that searching at night will
        necessarily and specifically help, although it could,
        if you haven’t found the blaze by careful online
        searching and viewing . . . of course, after successfully
        having solved all the earlier clues. Not easy, by any
        stretch of the imagination. I think I’ve done it, and it
        took hundreds of hours of intense thinking, head-
        scratching, and taking notes — about 50 pages worth,
        as printed to be read as a speech . . . although I only
        did this to help me solve the poem. Like FF said,
        “difficult but not impossible”.

        I think you are “getting warmer” by thinking about this.

        (Thinking optically,) the amount of available light is relatively significant . . . a searcher will likely have
        more chance for success by bringing a good flashlight.
        Please don’t ask me to explain this right now. After the
        TC is found, or if I quit pursuing it, I’ll be happy to
        explain my thinking on this.

        Regarding the sandwich, I think FF specifically used
        this word as a minor hint. He could have said “food”
        or “a snack” or “something to eat”. Functionally, any
        decent food would suffice, nutritionally. The hike is
        a bit challenging . . . sometimes steep, about 2 miles
        each way, in thin air. That’s each way, so one
        would not want to run out of energy. Or water, for
        that matter. I was a little dehydrated on my last
        search trip, and my legs got extremely sore, very
        quickly, even during the hike. Having done some
        bodybuilding, my experience has usually been that
        muscle soreness due to a good workout starts
        about a day after the workout. So this did surprise
        me. I (later!) read that it’s important to stay well-
        hydrated in high altitudes. Well, I learned it a bit
        late, but better late than never! I’ll be better at this
        on my next — and hopefully, last — search trip . . . to
        the same location. I’m a bit more focused now. I
        think I got within about 300 ft. of the TC in August,
        and expect to head out there again in June 2017.

        The above is just my opinion. Yours may differ.
        Good luck. Please stay safe.

    • I’ve been saying it has to be found at night for about 8 months now ROLL TIDE. The sandwich is for you to eat while your waiting for specific time for the blaze to turn on and show you it’s location. And after that the flashlight is obvious. That mysterious website WWWH.com even says the same thing. The person who decoded and translated the code on its “current” page was incorrect. Think his name was SOD Buster or something.

      Also concerning that Mark Twain quote on MW. If you read Tom Sawyer, you’d realize that so much of that story is just like Forrest’s life. The marble champ, going out to the cemetery late at night. Also… going out looking for and finding treasure after midnight.

      Just some of my opinions for thought 😛

      • Iron Will ,

        Yes ! That was you !

        I knew I had read a theory from someone who had said that. But, I’ve wracked my brain trying to recall who said it or where I read it.

        Could you point me in that direction ? I’d like to look it over again.

        What do you think about maybe blazing a trail with reflective tape ? We used to do that when I was an active hunter, to help us find our stands in the early morning hours.

        The tape is literally impossible to spot during the daytime.
        But it’s impossible to miss after dark, with a flashlight.

        Thank you.

          • Dear Iron Will

            I’d also think you might like this comment…
            Paraphrase: I made two trips to my car and it was done in one after noon…

            See how you could rearrange one afternoon into
            1 after noon… well, what would one after noon be? One night…..

            So he camped in the woods over night… making two trips… one from his car sleeping under the stars… and making the next trip back the next morning…

            Thanks for reading


          • yep I actually thought of that… 1 hour after 12 or 1 am lol

            I’ve given Dal some info to check while he is in W Yellowstone. We’ll see if there is fruition.

        • That is a very interesting theory ROLLTIDE. I had not considered why one might need a flashlight and a sandwich, other than FF making sure that searchers had basic backups with them. I have got to tell you tho, where I was searching in NM, I felt like I had eyes on me in the the fading light. A lot of areas are mountain lion country. Maybe you are supposed to spot them with the flashlight and give them a sandwich. Then they take you to the TC…

          • Parzival ,

            Yea, I know there are cats in my area. But there are cats everywhere in NM. I took a pic of a paw print. There was nothing modest about the size of it.

            Also saw plenty of bear scat and what I took to be cat scat.

            I was in there till about dark-thirty one day, and I was uncomfortable.

            I think it makes for a nice “what-if” though.

  10. When I took my private pilot written exam in 1971, many of the questions were dependent on getting the previous question correct. I suspect FF used this in the construction of his poem and clues. He has said things that seem to back up this logic. So, first you need to identify what, exactly, is the first clue. Nine clues in a 24 line poem. Not every line can be a clue or perhaps every line is part of a clue.

    • I agree Bob, that is how my solve is playing out. I did not start out thinking that or even suspecting that but I got to a place in my solve that I couldn’t go on until I pondered how I got to were I was. I’m thinking you must start at the beginning and figure what each line means to reveal the nine clues but at the end of the day it’s not gonna matter what the nine clues are because now you understand what the whole poem is saying and realize it’s a set of instructions that you were only able to decipher by starting at the beginning and working your way through.
      Just my opinion.
      WY Girl

      • I agree with you and Bob. My opinion only, but I think HOB isn’t someplace specific say Camp Brown, because you would be able to skip WWH and start with HOB. WY Girl, do you mind telling me where in WY you live? I’m looking for someone to check out my blaze again. I have an idea about the blaze that I came up with once I got home. Thx

        • JBL –

          Here is what Forrest said about reverse-engineering HOB………this is from Jenny’s blog.

          “Do you think that someone who is sure about the location of the home of Brown could reverse-engineer where warm waters halt? ~Ben Raylor

          Thanks for the question Ben.
          If you are sure about the location of home of Brown why are you concerned about where warm waters halt? But to answer your question, sure you could and a few searchers might throw in some gas money for a percentage of the take. Good luck.f”

        • JBL,
          Unfortunately I live in TX now. I grew up in Cody but moved away 20 years ago… But as the saying goes ” You can take the girl out of Wyoming but you can’t take Wyoming out of the girl”.
          I think Leza lives in that general area so you may want to ask her if that’s anywhere near your solve 🙂

      • WY Girl, I think you and I both agree that the number
        of clues doesn’t really matter. It didn’t seem to matter
        to Forrest. What’s important is that we don’t discount
        anything in the poem.

        My take on it all is that only the search clues help one
        to locate the TC. All the rest is just explanation, such
        as why/what, etc. My interest in all the reasoning of
        motives is limited (to put it politely). Not that I don’t
        have a lot of respect for Mr. Fenn. I do. (Darn!
        I got tricked into saying “I do” again! I hate it when
        that happens!).

        The above is just my opinion. Yours may differ.

        Good luck to all searchers. Please be safe. The
        Rockies are home to all kinds of dangerous
        critters. And if you are out somewhere “not in close
        proximaty” to a human trail, don’t be alone. Bring a
        good hiking partner (or more than one) and a good
        cellphone with good coverage. I suggest a setup
        that works as well as an Iphone with AT&T service.
        This worked well on my last search trip, even out
        in the middle of nowhere.

    • Thanks for that info Bob. The first trip is anagrams and the second trip is steganography. Every single line has both.

  11. Forrest has said that he went there in the afternoon and that it can be seen during the day. See this blog here: https://dalneitzel.com/cheat-sheet/

    Q: Were both trips made on the same day/date? “I made two trips from my car to the hiding place and it was done in one afternoon.f”

    Q: I would like to know if the blaze can be found during the day without a flashlight. “I would say yes.f”

  12. mamakat ,

    Yes, I am aware of the comments you posted.
    He also said the person will have thought , and analyzed and moved with confidence. Nothing about it will be accidental.

    Does he say anywhere that it can Only be found in the daytime ?
    Does he say that “daytime” is advantageous as compared to night-time ?
    What about ” one important possibility “, that no one has analyzed ?

    What is a memoir ? Would you agree that it is a “reflection” ?
    What about the coins on page 131 of TTOTC? Is that not a “reflection” ?
    What about his mother (?) and her twin sister? A reflection ?
    ” if any readers over the age of twelve don’t see a little of themselves in this mirror . . .” A reflection ?


    The list is endless.

    • RT, I agree. He has not said that it ONLY can be found in the daytime, but IMO, it seems that if he has said that he went there in the afternoon (daytime) and that the blaze can be found during the day, then nighttime is not a “requirement” to be able to see the treasure. That does not mean that it cannot be seen at night, just that night is not the ONLY time it can be seen (as in with some type of light).

      I like the reflection idea…thinking on this one…

    • Roll Tide- Perhaps you are already familiar with this:

      Folks have been agonizing for a couple of years now about Forrest saying this. Why would we need a flashlight? Is it in a cave? Underwater? In the basement of Brown’s home? Maybe we need a flashlight to throw at a bear guarding the chest…who knows? Recently Forrest sent me an email in which he said “A flashlight isn’t necessary unless you are searching at night.” So why did he say this to begin with? It’s just a saying…a reminder. My dad used to tell me, “If you are going to be late, take a flashlight.”

      While I am not going to try and dissuade anyone from pursuing the idea, I am not sure I can buy into f having it as a requirement to be out in the mountains in the dark to find the treasure chest. When one is in the mountains at night, it becomes exponentially more difficult and dangerous to find your way and people are likely to end up lost. I do not think f would want people out at night risking the potential of getting lost/injured and potentially requiring Search and Rescue teams to be called out to find people, or what remains of them.

      Considering f said a flashlight ins’t necessary unless you are searching at night, I personally take that to mean that I won’t need a flashlight to find the chest and that I will only need it for purposes of visibility to see where I am going/stepping if I am out in the dark. I take the flashlight, the GPS, a sandwich, bear spray, and his other comments about being prepared when going out into the mountains as tips for safety, not hints or clues for finding the treasure. If I am wrong, I will have preferred to err on the side that keeps me safe/alive if f didn’t happen to think this one through at an appropriate level.

      • Hi JCM — I agree with you. It’s a non-clue. It’s a sensible precaution for anyone hiking at altitude in unfamiliar terrain. If you get lost, you can run out of daylight quickly. A flashlight serves two purposes: it buys you more time to continue getting back to safety, and it can be used as a signaling device for other parties looking for you.

        As for the sandwich, I’d say water is far more important than food, and proper clothing can be more important than water depending on the time of year.

      • JCM ,

        I don’t see it as a requirement. As, I’ve said, I’m just tossing ideas around. Personally, I take a flashlight with me everywhere, and a bic lighter. Those are essential items if one finds themselves stranded for any length of time.

        I can see both sides of this one.

        I don’t believe f is encouraging people to search after dark, any more than I believe he said he walked several miles, or whatever it was.

        He told searchers that if THEY couldn’t do it twice in one afternoon, don’t do it.

        Nothing about that, to me anyway, implies that he did it. Only that he knew searchers were doing it.

        Best I remember, he evaded a direct answer by saying “less than a few”.

        That could mean anything.
        It could mean 200′. It could mean a half-mile.

        Just tossing thoughts around.

        Although, understanding “why” he said it, might shed some light on the comment. ( I know, I kill me sometimes.)

        Believing that I might understand why he said it, puts a smile on my face.

  13. I made an interesting discovery today. IMO- HOB causes WWWH. If you know the answer to one, you know the answer to the other. And it’s so basic that I don’t know how I didn’t realize this sooner. I know there are others who have considered this WWWH but I think you gave up too easily because as far as I know, nobody is pursuing this answer now.

      • Keep in mind that FF said you could reverse engineer HOB……………wow – you go ………………

        • I never heard the quote about reverse engineering from HOB. That is interesting since I believe HOB creates WWWH. You could reverse engineer to WWWH. I think that if you understand one, you understand the other and both put you on the path to understanding the rest of the poem. Hmm, interesting about FF saying you could reverse engineer.

    • Puzzled, you’ve got me puzzled now (by what you said).

      Would you care to explain a bit? Please?

  14. mamakat ,

    I’m just thinking and analyzing , that’s all. No one here at home listens to me anymore. They have grown weary from hearing all of my theories and eureka-moments.
    So, I use this forum to toss ideas around, in the hopes of someone actually responding to my thoughts. So, thanks.

    Hiding a treasure, and finding a treasure, as you know, are two different things. I could hide a treasure in the afternoon and while doing so, I could employ a method that would allow a searcher to also be able to walk straight to it after dark, if s/he were at the final segment of their solve.

    No, I didn’t mean to imply that night-time was a requirement, as I certainly believe it can be found during daylight hours.

    But, suppose I have found the correct general location, and I am staring boldly at my blaze, but am stumped at that point ? Now, if I go to that spot after dark, and turn my flashlight on, and just happen to see reflections, I would have a cow.

    And to be fair, f did say that once you find the blaze, it will be obvious.

    That would seem to throw water into my post-toasties. Or would it ?

    What (?) would be obvious ?

    The location of the treasure?

    Or the blaze?

    • no water on our post toasties. No one has the correct answer to my knowledge so you ideas are as good as anyone else’s. I’ve giving up on my HOB in New Mexico because I cannot connect it with anything else. Now, I’m looking north. You think Aunt Clara Brown might be worth a look?

      • Robert Miller ,

        Aunt Clara could very well be the ticket. You’re ideas are also worth just as much as anyone else’s.

        I try not to dismiss anything. After all, Indulgence still patiently slumbers, awaiting that one idea that no one has considered yet.

        My quest for answers took me all the way to Lake Tahoe in the early stages, just in an attempt to understand Native-American customs and migrations.

        Good luck to you, sir.

        • Thanks, Tide. Now if I could just remember to proof read my spelling before hitting “send”….

      • I have also looked into Clara Brown. I wonder if anyone else has seen the cancer canyon adventure series website? Not sure what to make of it but if you go to cancercanyon.com then check out the tour itinerary, I think you will see some parallels to Mr. Fenn’s poem, also interesting that Clara Brown is known as ‘The Angel of the Rockies’…

    • I think I would have a cow also RT! 🙂 You are very welcome! That is what we all are doing – thinking and analyzing. Sometimes though, even though something has been said a hundred times, hearing someone say the same thing a different way, can make a big aha moment. IMO.

  15. RT said “Now, if I go to that spot after dark, and turn my flashlight on, and just happen to see reflections, I would have a cow”.

    That is quite a coincidence. My mom is visiting and we were just at a dairy, and I showed her a cow. She hadn’t seen one up close before. Can you believe that? lol.

  16. I tried once to take a picture of a man with a wooden leg but it was useless, so I decided to use a camera instead.

  17. No place for the meek . . .

    stout-hearted men ?

    A&M mascot : Reveille (from a French word, meaning “wake up” )

    Look at synonyms for “wake up”.

    Anyone else curious as to why f never mentions having a dog as a kid ?

    What little boy doesn’t ever have a dog ?

    Or, does he indeed talk about this, and I have overlooked it ?

    • I think the answer is self-evident – they would go to Yellowstone for 3 months a year. Traveling with a dog is difficult and the first few years they camped within the park.

      • Indy ,

        I’m not sure how that answers my question ??

        He talks about having a cow. They didn’t load Bessie up and take her to Yellowstone either.

        In the picture on page 28 of TTOTC, there is a pup that I assume was a family pet. Yet, I don’t recall f ever talking about this pup or any others.

        Who doesn’t have a few fond memories of pets they had as a child?
        He talks about how he loved Bessie – “Until you have loved a cow, part of your soul remains undiscovered.”

        I just find it odd that he never mentions this pup, or others, to my knowledge.

        I can’t imagine writing my memoir, sharing as much about the fond memories of my childhood as f has shared, and never mentioning any of the dogs that I loved as a little boy.

        Maybe I’ve just overlooked it somewhere?

          • The auld anes think it best,
            With the brown cow to clear their een, snuff, crack, and take their rest.

            …and the dipthong ran away with the dog 😉

          • Sir; She walks, she talks…etc.

            For those who have not been in the military, this will make no sense – for those that have, they will smile.


          • JDA- Sounds like the 7 degrees of Kevin Bacon to me. Did F ever mention a pot bellied pig?

            As far as the dogs I do not that in TFTW there are drawings of a dog both on the I side of the covers and in the notes about BIP. A sentimental book made for F with the travels of a Weiner dog by Sherry Brown with the help of Eric Sloane. Coincidentally Marcel Marceau was the original BIP. And he wrote a kids book with the same font and title as Fs exclusive special it ten copies ever made BIP
            Marcel Was a silent french mime/clown who was quite popular back in the day and travelled all through different countries with liberties like other artists did. Hear me all?

        • Here’s my take on it…since there was a war effort going on and everyone was doing their part to help out, his mother used the string to knit items to send to the Red Cross to deliver to the troops. Everyone was encouraged to ‘Knit your Bit’. Socks, sweaters, hats, vest, scarfs, etc.

          • FenngShui, I think that Forrest would have found the ball of string in the house
            somewhere. The string, however, may
            have been given away to help the the
            war effort . . . or maybe just to discourage
            FF from swiping every bit of string that
            was important to someone else. I wouldn’t have put it past him to unravel
            some clothing so he could grow the ball!

  18. Anyone else having trouble with hoD today ?

    Already lost one post today and that is frustrating . And the Most Recent Comments section is not refreshing.

    Anyone else?

      • Thanks Goofy ,

        Typed about a 300 -word comment and sent it but, it never posted. Been having trouble all morning. Everything seemed to be working other than Most Recent Comments.

        Tried it from my phone , same story.

        Seems to be working now ?

          • It’s only been an hour Roll; are you lonely. 🙂 Some days we have lots of comments some days we don’t. Everything seems to be working fine. Maybe everyone is out making that last search of the year, or just enjoying the fall weather.

            I’ve noticed over the years the blog seems to have moods. At times it is sicky sweet and huggy bunch; other times frustrated, antagonistic, and aggravated. The fall seems to be a let down for some searchers; having come up empty handed yet again after spending all their time and money on the search.

            Enjoy the quiet times, I promise it will change.

          • Yup,
            The season is winding down.
            Not! Now it’s time for the veteran to chime in & see if he made it to West Yellow.
            Maybe he’s checking the trany fluid or buying some fresh bear spray.
            The mattress in the van may need to breath a little.
            He should be checking out his spots tomorrow & the weather is nice.
            70 Dal-matians on the run.

          • Hi ROLLTIDE — I suspect Goofy’s analysis is correct: the blog goes through periods of frenetic activity and doldrums, and those doldrums often coincide with periods of heavy field searching. This is probably the most active time of the year as far as Fenn treasure searching goes: good weather, kids are back in school so crowds are down, creeks/rivers are lower, and snow is just starting up again but not affecting most search locations. Dal is nearly there, Jake is not far behind, JD has at least one final trip this year, and I’m sure there are hundreds more that are scouring the Rockies for Indulgence.

          • I agree Zap.
            It is a good time to search. Went up last weekend on a whim and the crowds in Yellowstone were down, even was able to find a last minute motel in Gardiner. The locals said it had mostly to do with the river parasite but also said it was that time of year.

          • Robert,
            I can give you 3 sure fire clues that have been identified by the architect.
            WWWH, Where the home of Brown is & the last is the blaze.
            Have fun being enchanted.

          • Well, I have located about five HOB’s and am interested now about one in Colorado. The Google Map shows promising creeks, canyons, etc. Would love to hear about your thoughts.

          • I have given up on looking for HOB months ago.
            I came to the conclusion that there is only one person who knows what it is & exactly where it is. All I have for the location is in between the 2nd clue & 4th clue.
            I skipped HOB (3rd clue) & figured out the 4th clue & 5th clue & this gave me a general idea where HOB is. IMO

          • I also thought I would never figure out HOB. But, finally after 6 months of repeating the poem numerous times every day, I realized what it was saying. Now I’ve arrived at stanza 5 and realize that the poem is exactly as straightforward as Fenn said it is. You just have to know WWWH and everything after that is straightforward. IMO- without the correct WWWH, the poem is hopeless but with the correct WWWH the poem is self explanatory, straightforward and provides confidence.

          • Without the correct WWWH which tells you clearly what HOB is, there is zero chance of solving the rest of the poem. HOB guides you through the rest of the poem and is the reason WWWH exists at all. Imo

          • Ya, I know Puz,
            I have read your comment & you keep repeating the same thing.
            How do you know you are right if you do not have BOTG now?
            I see your confidence & if I was that confident, I would be booking a trip.
            Oh, I did already.

          • Jake- I had BOTG for the second time last week just because I was in the area anyway. Didn’t think I would have time, but I did. I stood at WWWH, canyon down (which is an “instruction” and not an actual location), HOB (saw it but didn’t go there), TFTW, end drawing nigh, (another instruction I walked through), no paddle up your creek (a description), heavy loads and water high (which is also a description but you can get through it), tarry scant with marvel gaze (description- not a place to go- but it is a single “thing” and not tarry and then marvel gaze), Found the blaze! That is how I can be so confident. When I finish stanza 5 and stanza 6 I can be out the door in less than 24 hrs.! And when I go, nobody will know except my family until I return. But thanks for asking Jake. If I told you the details of my search, I wouldn’t be able to search without racing someone else to it. And I’m not wasting time wandering until every last detail is in order.

          • Puz,
            How can you stand at an instruction?
            You say: ” I stood at WWWH, canyon down (which is an “instruction” and not an actual location)”
            I am puzzled…..

          • Puz,
            You are popping all around the poem.
            Did he not say the clues are in consecutive order?
            I think your confused.
            Then you say you found the blaze but you don’t have the chest to prove it.
            How many clues do you have now?

          • Jake Faulker, You are very funny. I think you are so determined to be right that you skim over my comments and launch an attack when you really don’t know what I have said. I hope you don’t read the poem that way.

            Since you seem determined to pick through all of my comments, lets dissect what I REALLY SAID.

            “I stood at WWWH, canyon down (which is an “instruction” and not an actual location), HOB (saw it but didn’t go there),. . .”

            Did you notice the comma following the words “WWWH” and “canyon down”? This is an indication that I am making a list of the places I have been and the instructions I have followed as I have walked through where the poem has taken me. This means that “I STOOD AT WWWH” AND took it in the “canyon down (which is an instruction and not an actual location).

            I know that most searchers see “canyon down” as a place to go. I don’t think it is. Words have lots of different meanings. Have you considered that this instruction might not be an actual canyon on a map but might be telling you something else? I think it is saying something else. I suggest studying the other definitions of the words in the sentence, “take it in the canyon down”.

            “HOB (saw it but didn’t go there),” notice again that I included commas between the listed places and directions.

            I think HOB is essential to knowing you have the correct WWWH. I believe HOB is the reason WWWH exists at all. I know that may sound confusing if you don’t know my WWWH. WWWH is only there because HOB is there. You can reverse engineer from HOB to discover WWWH. They are directly tied together. But, I don’t think you need to go to HOB. I think knowing what and where it is confirms the correct WWWH since they are so closely tied together.

            “TFTW, end drawing nigh (another instruction I walked through),”

            JUST TO CLARIFY
            I believe that “TFTW” is a description of WWWH. Following TFTW I have included another comma because I’m still making a list. Following the comma I have listed, “end drawing nigh (another instruction I walked through)”. I believe that “end drawing nigh” is a description of HOB.

            NEXT I SAID
            “no paddle up your creek (a description), heavy loads and water high (which is also a description but you can get through it),” I believe “no paddle up your creek” is also caused by HOB. It cannot exist without HOB. I believe “heavy loads and water high” is a perfectly brilliant description of WWWH.

            NEXT I SAID
            “tarry scant with marvel gaze (description- not a place to go- but it is a single “thing” and not tarry and then marvel gaze),”

            I surprised myself when I figured out “tarry scant with marvel gaze. I believe it is a single thing. It is a tarry scant with a marvel gaze. Not two different things.

            NEXT I SAID
            “I found the blaze!

            I disagree with many searchers about finding the blaze. I do not think the blaze is the last clue. In fact, if you believe Fenn’s comments about the blaze, then you should be aware that he said you couldn’t start in the middle of the poem. And then he said something about people going out looking for the blaze. This comment from him seems to suggest that the blaze is in the “middle” of the poem and not at the end. But that is just my interpretation.

            So I believe I have worked the poem out through the blaze.

            When I had BOTG last week it was because I was only in the area and went ot check a few things out. I don’t intend to do a complete search until I finish the poem. I think it would be a waste of time. I don’t think the TC will be found that way. I think the poem must be worked through in its entirety. That is just what I think. I also am not nearly as interested in the TC as I am in the poem. I know that is not a popular opinion. I have no need for a treasure chest or its contents. I am after the challenge of solving the poem. I also don’t need any reason to get out in nature. Hubby and I have raised our large family to enjoy nature at every opportunity. I live 15 minutes from one of the most wonderful National Parks there is. Its our backyard. We hike all the time and our life revolves around it. So, no need to get me off the sofa and away from the TV.

            Like I have said before, I am fishing! Throwing out my ideas in hopes that someone else is working on the same WWWH so I can chat off the blog with someone about it. Just because I am at the blaze doesn’t mean I am at the TC. If I thought I could find it when I figured out the blaze, then I would have hung around long enough to find it. But, I believe the blaze is not the end! I do strongly believe I am on the right track. My WWWH is not like a million others that are all the same. I am confident about my solve up to this point. I don’t think the TC is going anywhere any time soon. When I get the poem solved, I will let you know.

            “If you’ve been wise and found the blaze, look quickly down your quest to cease”. I think “look quickly down” means “peek/peak”. This is a clue and not the end imo. So I have a ways to go.

            Happy Searching Everyone! And if any of you think you might be working with the same WWWH that I am, would love to chat with you about it.

          • You don’t have to repeat yourself again & again & again.
            I know what you wrote & what it says.
            “I have no need for a treasure chest or its contents. I am after the challenge of solving the poem.”
            Ya, OK, I see your motivation is just as clear as your explanation.
            So when you find the chest, just take some pictures & leave it there.
            Thanks for your honesty Puz……

          • Actually Jake, I do plan on donating the treasure, leaving the chest where it is and filling it with something else for someone else to find. I think the fun is in the chase that doesn’t have to end.

            It seems you don’t understand and that is OK. Not everyone is motivated by money and riches.

            One thing I have learned in 25 years of research, is that when you are trying to understand something you are studying, it is important to have an open mind. If your approach is narrow minded, and you can only see from your own personal point of view, you probably don’t really understand. Kinda like solving this POEM. My motivations reflect who I am and they are different than yours. Who cares? But this poem hasn’t been solved yet by many thousands who have tried. So maybe it’s because the winning solve needs a different point of view. So I am going at it differently and yes I feel very confident. I think I am following what the poem says.

            I think the “word that is key” is WATERS and the “big picture” is the hydronic cycle.

            I think “the answers I already know” are what is important. IMO we all already know WWWH but the map is distracting. I don’t think you need it til you get to “Look quickly down” At that point, you can take those answers and find the correct peek/peak.

            I feel sure the TC is not found at the Blaze. Those last two stanzas are important.

            Happly Searching whatever your motivations are.

      • Hey Goofy, I was having the same trouble last weekend, 9/3, 9/4,9/5. Could not post. Went away Tuesday. Just letting you know.

        • Hey Jake & puzzled
          I stopped looking for one in general. The way I see it the HOB and the BLAZE are the same location so get one for two. What a deal! The very first line in the poem , “As I have gone alone in there” to me spells Antre ( it’s spelled right ) which is a cave or a recessed hole. There’s more but I thought I would throw that out there and see where it sticks…A free bone…

          • Thanks for the bone Timothy. But I have the 1st line and that isn’t it Imo. Good luck to you though. And HOB is directly tied to the blaze in my solve.

          • There are no freebies in this Chase…the person that solves this is gonna work real hard…not in a physical sense per se. I think folks offering up nuggets mean well and I admire them for it, but…until the Chest is in someone’s possession these statements really mean nada. As the colder months loom large I hope all that venture out remain diligent and err on the safe side…still hoping I can get out once more before the weather turns.

  19. pdenver ,

    Thanks, showing your post-check and focused on poetry page since my last post.

    Is that what you are showing ?

    Maybe it’s just a slow day? Seems unusual.

        • Morn pdenver
          I had to lol when you replied on the 1st line because there are probably 65,000 different versions of that line.

          Oh here’s one for you: “Is what you’re reading in the poem really what you are reading”???

          Just something to think about…

          • Afternoon pdenver,
            It’s just that, that line has an importance that others that have wwwh as their starting point would not understand but I’ve been reading yours and it gets me smiling because you have something so important that you want to just blurt it out. It’s not that you are hiding anything but your information fits and you are itching to tell someone.
            I know that feeling, as I myself concur to your solve pieces that you do put out there. Yes, you are right! The Hob is directly tied to the Blaze which is directly tied to the Treasure Chest. I also have a feeling that we both have the same information. Every bit of my solve is in the poem and every piece of it is backed up with small hints in certain pages of TTOTC and TFTW. I will say this, if we have the same solve then you should also have the same KEY WORD that is also part of the poems completion.

    • Goofy ,

      That right there’s funny . . .

      Just checking to make sure it wasn’t on my end. Been reading this blog practically every day for seven months and I’ve never seen it this slow.

      Okay, I’m going back to the basement . . .

      • Goofy ,

        Does a semi-lengthy post get rejected if one is not “subscribed” ?

        I don’t know about these things, that’s why I ask.

        I’m still trying to figure out how Pac-Man ate all those performance-enhancing pills without turning belly-up.

        • Roll to my knowledge, whether you’re subscribed or not makes no difference on being able to make comments.

        • Looks like you’re the only one posting and I’m the only one reading?
          Where have all the searchers gone?
          Sounds like a song from long ago…

  20. Hey all, Dal or Goofy
    Slow day, does anyone now what Stephanie was talking about the other day? Something she seen on chase chat about f saying that the correct solve is done but the chest hasn’t been retrieved yet???
    I’m trying to find it but on chase chat it’s been deleted on the day she was talking about and i’m 3 years deep with you and a lot of other searchers. If this is true I would just like to see it in writing. From Forrest? I WILL NOT believe anyone else but Forrest. Sorry Dal I would also believe you and Goofy.

    • Timothy, I’ve lost count of how many times someone has said that. I get at least a couple of those a month in my email; with pictures no less. Of course the pictures don’t show the chest or anything in it; just where it should have been before it was removed.

      And of course there are the geniuses that say Fenn never hid it because there is no doubt they have figured out the correct solution and the chest is not there. I wondered why they think the poem describes a real place if the chest isn’t real. It never occurs to these narcissistic clowns they could be wrong.

      The fall always brings out the nut cases claiming all sorts of things. Stock up on popcorn and beer, those fools are hilarious.

      • Goofy
        Thanks for the reply. Where would they subscribe at now? I don’t see any spot for new people to sign in to.
        Oh well, have a great day Goofy
        sorry just habit ^

  21. Hey All,
    Never mind any of the previous message. I finally was on chase chat and I found out what was going on with the message. THE TREASURE CHEST HAS “NOT” BEEN FOUND. Carry on everybody i’m getting closer, I sure have it narrowed down by lets say 2020. Crow Pie for meeee…

    PS Good Luck Dal on your search. be safe

    • Timothy, I’m pretty sure Forrest would only make an announcement if the chest was actually found. I do remember reading something that he said in years past on a site that I can’t remember that said if the chest is found, he would then contact 3 major news stations to report it. He indicated that he didn’t want people to continue to spend money searching if it had been found. I’m of the opinion that it very well may be found this year before the snow shuts the searchers down but I also realize that it very well may not be found. I sure hope that if it is not found this year that a lot of great memories can be chalked up and the experiences can lead us closer to the prize.

  22. F has said that he was thinking 100, 500 , 1000 years into the future with regards to the chest. Now what I first thought of that was that he wanted the chest to be found in 1000 years or so. Has anyone thought that what he meant was what HES doing in 100 – 1000 years from now? Maybe the chest is a “gift to the gods”, so to say? Maybe he still feels guilty over ‘Nam and this is his ticket into the after life?

    If so, where would you place your ‘Indulgence’?

    IMIO (In My Imaginative Opinion)…..

    • “As I have gone alone in there
      And with my treasures bold,
      I can keep my secret where,
      And hint of riches new and old.”

      Maybe this part of the poem has to do with entering the “after-life”?

      Another reason to think like this, is Forrest planned this chase/hiding his chest, when he had a 10% or so chance of surviving cancer. I’m sure thinking about whats next after this life crossed his mind during that period of time.


      • Cluesfromphilly- remember when Fenn said, “get back in the box”? It’s easier than that if you find the correct WWWH imo.

        • Puzz,

          That would be like trying to put the toothpaste back into the tube for me. I’m like a homeless man unaware that he is homeless and thinks he is searching for the holy grail.

          But he does ask “Why is it that I must go” ….

          Wheres he going? Is he going “Alone” IDK.

          • “Why is it that I must go?” Is not a question (imo). It is instruction on where to go. And no; you don’t have to go alone. “alone in there” describes something. “The answers I already know” will help (imo)

        • Puzzled: I don’t believe you’ve indicated which state you are concentrating on, but your remarks about “get back in the box” and your belief that “why is it that I must go” is not a question but rather an instruction combine to suggest it’s probably Wyoming (Wyoming and Colorado being “boxed-shaped” states, and of course the W(h)Y is it that I must go that lots of others have suggested means Wyoming). You could even increase the specificity by assuming that “So why is it that I must go” signals southern (So.) Wyoming. That said, I don’t think Wyoming will turn out to be the right state, but I see WY some people like it.

          • Interesting ideas zaphod. I think “so why is it that I must go” is in part describing WWWH. And I hadnt thought about the box shaped states. I just know that when Fenn said to get back in the box, he also suggested that ideas would “flow” more smoothly there.

      • This is an introduction to where he went “in.” Throwing out a vague hint of the area; “riches new and old.”

    • I don’t think the treasure is a gift to the gods. I think it’s more of a means to “pay it forwards”.

      If it were me, I’d place my “Indulgence” in a natural “cathedral”. Not necessarily a place that awes a person, but one that entices a person to think about the deeper meaning of life. A peaceful retreat.
      And I think that’s what Forrest did.

  23. “If you think I could not have put it there, you are probably right.” f

    From Jenny’s Weekly Words from Forrest, Sept 9, 2016

  24. How many folks have spent time on the anagrams? How about steganography. There are an enormous amount of clues hidden here.

    • Timw –

      Steganography – now just being a red neck from Texas – I had to go look that one up…

      The advantage of steganography over cryptography alone is that the intended secret message does not attract attention to itself as an object of scrutiny. Plainly visible encrypted messages—no matter how unbreakable—arouse interest, and may in themselves be incriminating in countries where encryption is illegal.[2] Thus, whereas cryptography is the practice of protecting the contents of a message alone, steganography is concerned with concealing the fact that a secret message is being sent, as well as concealing the contents of the message.

      Yes, definitely have used that method. Also, I just posted an anagram over on the nine clues – but don’t put a great deal of faith in them.

    • I’ve checked out anagrams but not steganography. I tend to study all the dinosaurs, and not center in on one. But anything that could help with the poem is worth investigating.

    • I really think the clues are not in anagrams or steganography. I think this poem is straight forward like Fenn said. For a while I thought it was not solvable but now I can see that it is; but only if you understand the correct WWWH and follow the clues in order. Very straight forward, not mysterious & very interesting once you find the correct WWWH. Without that, you are just wandering imo.

  25. In my opinion,
    No place for the meek means don’t be timid at this time to keep the distance short to the TC.

    Home of Brown means 900 pounds of fish per mile and is a searchable parameter on internet documents if you know the correct fishing jargon. The document may not have the exhaustive list of valid locations for various reasons.

    Where warm waters halt is a common fishing term describing the upstream-trending transition for trophy trout feeding zone.

    Waters high means either a gravity fed water system or High Water Mark in the rock layers (or both).

    Alone in there means noone else knows so don’t wonder if anyone else knows.

    Brave and in the wood means you are not out of the wood (possibly figuratively).

    Ask a kid means follow the ascending goat trail to a possible seep spring or keep it simple.

    Look quickly down means an uncharacteristic geographic depression which can be seen from 12 feet or more below a marvel gaze.

  26. mensan_fennsan ,

    “Ask a kid . . .”

    I’ve seen this more times than I can count but, I have been unable to prove to myself that f actually ever said this.

    I’ve seen it discussed over and over again, still , no actual quote from f himself that would prove he indeed said this.

    Throw a dog a bone . Do you have a quote from f where he says this ?

    • Roll that question has been answered many times. Whether one thinks it’s important or not he said it on more than one occasion. I honestly don’t think it’s important. But it is a burr under the saddles of all the genius rocket scientists here.

      You apparently haven’t watched the videos……….Research is your friend.

      • Goofy ,

        You are right sir, research is my friend. It’s what I’ve done since getting involved in this. To me, asking questions has always been a critical component of any type of research.

        And I’ll be the first to admit that I’ve not read every single comment that has been posted since the inception of this blog. Nor have I watched every single video, apparently.

        As to whether or not “ask a kid” is important, I am certainly not the one to ask. I was simply curious as to where he said it, so I could ponder upon it.

        Could be something, could be nothing.

        I’ll take your comment to mean that it can be found in a video somewhere. So, I’ll go back and watch videos again.

        If f said it, then it would certainly put a spit-shine on my solve.

        Thanks for putting up with me.

          • JDA ,

            Haven’t tried it yet. Had a Bama game to watch yesterday and g-son had baseball game today. Got another tonight.

            Will let you know. Thanks.

          • JDA ,

            Tried it three different ways, including no caps and no spaces between.
            Same story, going straight to moderation.
            I don’t know.

        • Roll, if one thinks what Fenn has said is important or knowing more about him is important the searcher should watch all the videos. I don’t mind helping someone one out and reading every comment here would be a daunting task. But we are not research assistants for lazy newbies that can’t be bothered to do basic research like watching the videos.

          Apparently you’ve got it nailed anyway……Good hunting.

  27. Random cool fact (or at least I think) I came across on some cool old Arrowsmith maps a little while back and thought I’d share. The Missouri (in Lewis and Clark time and when the commission were defining the edges of a certain glacial park) was known as the King river. Similar to the king in a deck of cards (and some kings in history) rather than refer to it by name the explorers affectionately referred to it as “the river that scalds all others” it’s even written into a few good maps. Neat, huh?

    • Yeah, that is.
      Are those maps available to buy? I love great maps and old maps, and always wanted to have a collection in a map cabinet set in a library full of collected books and fine art.
      Of course, that’s always been just a dream.

  28. I met a boy named Forrest yesterday. I had to ask his mom to be sure, then told her I knew someone named Forrest too. : )

  29. mensan_fennsan wrote:
    “Home of Brown means 900 pounds of fish per mile and is a searchable parameter on internet documents if you know the correct fishing jargon … Where warm waters halt is a common fishing term describing the upstream-trending transition for trophy trout feeding zone.”
    Maybe you are just joking with us. If you are serious, you’re certainly welcome to pursue that line of thinking. But in that case you need to know that >>> trout research has been pursued by searchers for at least a thousand years, and still no treasure chest.

    I personally think the trout angle is trite. Do you really think this chase is all about … fish?

    Ken (in Texas)

        • Which “IT” are you referring to? If I count correctly, “IT” is used 4 times and “IT’s” is used once. Two can mean “The quest for the treasure, and two can have other “more normal” uses. IT is up to you Robert – IT is YOUR solve. JDA

          • Thanks for that thought. “It” could mean the search, take off roll, a trip, a walk, a dive, an exploration, a song, a prayer, , a journey, and more and more. I think we should all just crowd source our ideas and split the loot, movie and book rights and we will all forever be linked with FF for all history. Anyone interested. I know some of you have good solves and have found no chest. I would be up for it.!

          • Hi Robert: while the second stanza “it”s can be most simply decoded as “the quest” or “the journey”, they take on a more specific meaning in conjunction with a clue you need (IMO) to solve in the first stanza. I know a lot of searchers think the first stanza is setup or boiler plate, but ask yourself why it is worded so oddly? It screams, “something strange is going on here”, but most dismiss it. Forrest has suggested that people will never solve the poem without figuring out the starting point; my addendum is that people are unlikely to figure out the starting point without the first stanza clue.

  30. Good morning Mr. Miller

    Under “Searcher’s Discussions” there is an entire thread dedicated to this subject. You might want to start there.

    I am not sure that there is one definition. “Begin IT where warn…”
    IT could mean you journey or search for the treasure.

    “And take IT in the canyon down” – again take your search for the treasure…

    “From there IT’s no…” – Standard English language usage?

    etc. etc. etc. Pick your own Robert – it is YOUR SOLVE. JDA

        • Going alone this time but may have a hiking partner from Cinnamon Lodge.
          Either way, if no one is available I will have to go by myself which I don’t like to do when there is no cell service but what did we do before cell phones.
          I will let people know exactly where I am going & when I should return & hope everything goes OK.

          • You know pd, I’ve always ignored the “what if” statement until now.
            I noticed one comment that stuck out back in Feb by 9clues:
            “What if Fenn’s ‘home of Brown’ isn’t an exact physical location but more of a generality?”

            Forrest states “uncertain knowledge”.
            This fits right in with 9clues theory & my theory.
            I think the area of HOB & where you put in is uncertain & really doesn’t matter much where you put in as long as you do on the Madison below the Firehole river.
            If you do not put in & decide to drive, you will miss your draw out point.

            Thanks for bringing that up pdenver.

          • Why does everyone assume “put in” means a starting point? Words have more than one meaning. I think the reason the poem is a challenge is because we have to look beyond what we think the words mean and look for alternate meanings.

          • There are a number of good answers for “put in”.

            I tend to favor Merriam-Webster dictionary online for my definitions.
            Put = “to convey into another form”

            So in my solve, this would mean that you are conveying something into another form and it is placed “in” below the HOB. Actually, it is created by the HOB and is below the HOB.

          • OK Puz,
            Let’s plug that other definition into the poem to see if it flows & works.

            To convey into another form in below the home of Brown.

            It could work & you have figured out one of the 9 clues but now you have created another clue to be figured out. What is another form?
            So now one clue to be figured becomes 2 clues to be figured.

            This is one of the reasons I don’t like to use very odd definitions of the words in the poem.
            The main reason I do not do this anymore is you can end up with millions of variations of how it is to be interpreted.
            Another reason is, the poem loses it’s flow.

            But if it works for you, don’t let me stop you.

          • IMO This definition of “put in” works! HOB creates WWWH from “another form”. End is ever drawing nigh because the cycle is in constant motion, endlessly repeating itself. It is based upon scientific principles that FF has referred to subtly in TTOTC. I believe this “put” is the connection between HOB and WWWH.

          • Hi Jake — best of luck! If it’s any consolation, IMO nobody that has ever posted here on Dal’s site is closer to being in the right area than where I think you’re headed.

          • There was one searcher that had commented here about going up Lightning Creek & how it was not doable for an 80 yr old & I agree.
            I will be close to Lightning & Tumbledown Zap.

            I was wondering if anyone checked the validity of Forrest’s story about hiking from Earthquake to Avalanche Lake.
            I did & found some interesting aberrations late last year.

          • There would be only one reason I will go to NM 1idwillhe & it’s not to search for the treasure.
            Thanks for the offer though.
            I will never search another state except for the Treasure State.

          • Jake –

            Best of luck to you – go get it.

            I really like what Puz posted……..

            Put = “to convey into another form”

            In my solve – at this point I am driving and it’s a turn onto a dirt road. Works real slick.

          • puzzled, why do you use Merriam-Webster dictionary online when f has stated to look up a word in Google? I thought f didn’t use dictionaries. If he wanted to know a spelling or definition, he would just look it up. Google.

          • I said I prefer Merriam-Webster. Didn’t say that is all I use. When I Google a word definition, I have noticed that I get more possible meanings from Merriam-Webster than I do from other sources. I also really like an online etymology dictionary. And, I only mentioned it to give the source for my definition of “put”. Just provided the source in case anyone wanted to look it up.

          • Jake, I’ll be in Montana on the 17th to the 20th. I will have the 19th free if you miss a spot and need someone to take a look.

            Probably won’t need it though since I’ll have the chest on the 18th. 🙂 lol, yea right.

          • You are on. “eye” “T” will not be found in Wyoming. Crossing the “T” I be. Only the clues that are in tight focus to wy, or “Y” will see. Page 133 look for the simple “hest”, figure that out then go find the chest. I’m a terrible poet. But, JDA, YOU ARE ON!!!

          • Charlie,

            Are you referring to Charles Heston? Its a clue. People don’t realize the structure of the poem, but i do. 🙂

  31. Well, having another semi-lenghthy post spit out into the ether this morning was frustrating. Maybe I need a new computer.

    The gist of my comment was that, after using the poem and hints from TTOTC, I made my last botg and walked directly to my blaze. A blaze I didn’t set out looking for.

    Upon arriving at my blaze, I found an “F”.

    Not bad for a lazy newbie.

      • Thanks JDA ,

        I’ve got one more botg planned for sometime in the future.

        After that, I’m probably going to see if Dal cares to entertain my solve, complete with all the research materials I have accumulated and the map I have employed.

        I’m of the notion that he’ll hit the ground running.

        • Something to do with my cell phone I guess but I don’t know what . And I’m not buying anymore phones.

        • ROLL TIDE, I contacted Dal about teaming up
          with me. He said he’d rather work on solving
          the poem independently.

    • Next time you write up a lengthy post, highlight it and Copy (Control C). That way you have it in memory and you can redo it if it didn’t take the first time.
      Just hit ‘Control V’ to paste it in your new Reply.

      Usually that’s caused by the time it’s taking you, I think. I think it’s most likely a problem with the browser code, or some setting related to that.

    • RT,
      I have to ask the obvious… do you think the chest is at the blaze? and if so… is the chest still as pretty as the pictures?

      I haven’t been following your theory, but most like to think the blaze is where the chest lays in wait… is that your theory as well?

      • Seeker ,

        I have no idea whether the chest is still as pretty as the pictures, as I don’t have the chest.

        I have been operating on the theory that the chest is within spitting-distance of the blaze.

        • Ok. Thanks.

          I was just confused as you found the blaze but no chest within spitting distance.

          I guess I’m still confused…but don’t worry about that, many here confuse me, and how many have found the blaze… and, well, no chest.

          • Seeker ,

            I said “my” blaze. Not THE blaze.

            How is anyone to know if they have found the “right” blaze until they have the chest in hand?

            How is anyone to know they have the “correct” wwwh, until they have the chest in hand?

            Or even the right State , for that matter?

            Should we all just stay at home, since no one can know they are right or wrong, without going to investigate their interpretations ?

            There are several locations that could be interpreted as a blaze in my search area.

            I have searched more than a few of those.

          • Hey Seeker
            Why don’t you try and explain how it is that a person can find the blaze but not the chest. It clearly points to the chest in the poem when it tells you to quickly look down, your quest to cease (stop, end no more ).

          • Timothy;

            I am not Seeker, but here is my answer. There are MANY definitions of those three little words – Look quickly down. Many mean FAR more than “look at your feet”. One obscure definition that I found after researching for two months told me WHERE to look, not HOW to look. Do your research, and don’t expect others to just give you the answers. Just my opinion. JDA

          • Timothy;

            I was a bit abrupt in my last post. I apologize. My wife has surgery a couple of days ago, and I am a bit testy. Sorry. You have been at this longer than I have, and I am sure that you have done your research. Again, sorry for the testiness. JDA

          • Timothy,
            If you’ve been wise and found the blaze , Look quickly down , your quest to cease , but tarry scant with marvel gaze , Just take the chest and go in peace.

            If the blaze is found… we are told to look quickly down… The part~ your quest to cease, becomes an after thought, as you still need to but [ do something ] tarry scant with marvel gaze. While some want this line to say get out fast, I see it as to stay a bit and gaze at what is needed to b seen…maybe something needed to e waited on for just the right time

            An event or an alignment needed to be watch as it happens. Which may point to another location… being the chest or in the wood or even something related to tied and weak. Buy if you’re at your blaze and the chest is not there? you may want a back up plan…

      • Hey Seeker
        It is for me. The only difference is the TC now has a patina to it. Bronze changing to it’s new elements. I know if I’m within 12′ of it I better be able to see it according to f. When he said that if someone got within 12′ of the chest that they should be able to find it or something like that .it’s all IMHO…
        Best of luck to you seeker, be safe when you go

        • Hey JDA
          It’s ok Sir, I myself am dealing with my wife and a new spot that just showed up on her mammogram. We have dealt with cancer of the thyroid and breast for a little while now so I do understand my friend. I don’t know why (age maybe) but I feel somewhat of a friend to you. As far as the saying “Look quickly down”, to me it speaking very clearly. I am on top of something that turns out to be a blaze and it is telling to look straight down to the bottom of where ever it is at. That would be the TC and the end of the chase of course. God be you and your wife, I’ll say a prayer for her.
          Ps. Research??? Really… I won’t even go there. I’m sure that I’ve thrown away more research than some of these newbies that are here just asking for answers…LOL

          • Timothy;

            Thanks so much for your understanding. The “Big C” is scary. I am dealing with it with my step-son – DARN! Tess’ surgery was a knee replacement. Again, Sorry I was testy.

            re “Look quickly down” – I still like my definition that tells me WHERE to look, not HOW to look. To me, looking down at your feet or at the base of the blaze is not the answer.

            Wish I could say more, but alas I can’t right now.

            Thanks for the prayers and GOOD thoughts – and the same are sent to you and yours. Hope the mamo is just a shadow, or nothing at all.

            I agree on the research. I am a “relative” nubie, but feel that I have at least done the “homework”, and have never asked for anyone to tell me an answer. Much more fun to figure it out yourself – at least for me.


      • Timothy ,

        This might sound rude, so I apologize up front.

        I might’ve been inclined to answer both of your questions, if not for this :

        ” I’m sure that I have thrown away more research than some of these newbies that are here just asking for answers . . .”

        With the hours I have put into this endeavor, I probably have as much research-time, if not more, than some of you “veterans”.

        I have experienced, first hand, the “newbie” treatment that you apparently agree with.

        So, the only civil way I can answer your questions is by saying that those answers can be found right here at hoD.

        The first one will be a direct answer.
        The second one, you will have to work for.

  32. Maybe ‘it’ is the thrill. The ‘thrill’ of attempting something, chasing after it. The anticipation of desire. A personal-interest quest.

  33. Jake,

    Who says it has to flow ?

    We are not writing a poem. We are attempting to deconstruct one, to try to figure out what the already-present-flow is telling us.

    Serious question. Why do you feel it has to flow?

    • Hi Jake/ROLL TIDE — on this point I would have to agree with RT. Why do you feel the need to physically replace poem words with their interpretations? The poem is a vehicle for information, nothing more. How you interpret that information is all that matters — it’s not about keeping the poem nicey-nicey. Are you telling me that you are literally replacing “where warm waters halt” with “at Madison Junction” (or wherever), as in “Begin it at Madison Junction and take it in the canyon down, etc.”? That doesn’t flow any better than the example you gave.

      • Hi Zap;

        Maybe RT is not replacing ” Madison Junction” for wwwh, but I am. As I “solve” one sentence or line or word, yes, I substitute, and go on. Sure worked for me.

        I never printed it out exactly that way, but I could.

        I have a 22 page “description” (Including pictures) of how I have solved the “riddles” of the poem – add to that another 20 pages of “Journaling”, and then add three pages of a “Check List”, and I have a fairly complete “Solve”. Let’s hope that it is all worth more than the paper it is printed on.

        Maybe I will add the “Substituted” poem – Just for grins.


        • When JDA When are you going??? Between you and Jake it should be pretty well buttoned up.

          Best of to you and Jake Both of you guys be safe out there…

          • I guess that it depends on Jake. If HE finds it, no reason to go.

            If NOT, probably a one day trip on the 25th. My “Helpers” schedules are pretty tight. We will leave Pocatello EARLY (very early), and then on to the spot – Search, FIND IT – drive back to Pocatello.

            LOOOOONG Day! But worth it, IF we find it!!!

            If we do not find it, probably the last trip for this year, but one never knows. JDA

          • Yea Jake,
            I personally am ready to start looking for the singing fat lady a shoot her. After 3 years i’m pretty much in it for the long haul now. Has anyone heard how Forrest is doing? Better I hope.
            You two cover those 2 states and I’ll stay with Colorado and N.M. One of us should be able to come up with something , wouldn’t you think?

      • Zap,
        Begin it in the Firehole River near Ojo Caliente spring
        And take it in the Firehole Canyon down,
        Not far, but too far too walk.
        Put in below the Firehole River (on the Madison) (You have a choice to put in up the Gibbon or the Madison)

        From there it’s no place for Joseph Meek, (No hunting or trapping allowed in YNP now) (From there is where you’re going which is the border of YNP on the Madison River, once your outside the border it’s OK to trap & hunt)

        The end is ever drawing North Intrastate Gallatin Highway (NIGH=Word that is key) (T-igh-T focus) (Less than a mile away from the YNP border on the Madison & where you draw your dingy out) (Note the wink without the smile after nigh;)

        There’ll be no paddle up your creek,
        Taylor creek is tailored just for you. Look up the origin these words.
        There was a paddle wheel & log flume there years ago along with over 50 cabins & many more roads there for a community of loggers, farmers & miners.
        All gone now……

        You figure out the rest.

        • Doesn’t have to flow Jake, – Let the Madison “flow” for you – and it still sounds good to me. Hope it leads you to the TC – JDA

        • Hi Jake — it’s actually not a bad solve, though I have a very different WWWH. I can see why you said earlier that your solve doesn’t have a specific HoB. One concern here is that Forrest once wrote something to the effect that if he told you where HoB was, you’d go straight to the treasure, and that doesn’t seem to be the case with your solution. But I do like that you’re applying a little imagination/cleverness with NIGH. But does anyone really call this road the North Intrastate Gallatin Highway? Maps I’ve seen just label it Gallatin Road.

          • What Forrest did actually say is that you would go “right” to it from HOB.
            Now your at HOB & yes, you have to go right not left.

            I never heard him say you would go straight to it & even if he did, the video I saw was a knee jerk reaction by him & seemed like a joke.

            Lots of us have different WWWH. I chose mine from River Bathing Is Best where he would take a bath in the Firehole near OJO & take a couple steps back where the water was cold to give him instant incentive to get out & dry.
            Where warm waters halt.

            Notice the big Omega from a birds eye view of that part of the Firehole.

            Yes it’s labeled as Gallatin Road but is also an Intrastate Highway 191 & is also known as Gallatin Gateway & with a gate you need a key to unlock it.
            It is now unlocked.
            It runs from Canada to Mexico except for YNP although it’s still there.

          • Hi Jake,

            “What Forrest did actually say is that you would go “right” to it from HOB.
            Now your at HOB & yes, you have to go right not left.”

            You make a good point, and I concede that I wouldn’t let that nit perturb my solution.

            “Lots of us have different WWWH. I chose mine from River Bathing Is Best where he would take a bath in the Firehole near OJO & take a couple steps back where the water was cold to give him instant incentive to get out & dry.
            Where warm waters halt.”

            Oh, I get your choice of WWWH. You have lots of company there. But that choice requires you to ditch the notion that the poem is solvable using the poem’s information (plus maps) alone. So if I’m applying Occam’s Razor, and I have two competing solutions — one that requires information exterior to the poem, and one that doesn’t — I would lean toward the latter.

            “Notice the big Omega from a birds eye view of that part of the Firehole.”

            There’s an even more impressive, obvious omega (oriented properly, I might add) created by the Madison near 7-mile Bridge. That said, it is the nature of rivers to form omega shapes, so they can really only work as confirming clues (which I gather is what you’re using it for in the case of Ojo Caliente).

    • When Forrest told Dal not to mess with the poem, I take this as don’t mess with the flow as well.
      I think you would want the poem to keep it’s eloquent flow whether you use different odd definitions of words or not.
      I don’t want the poem to sound clunky.
      Just a theory I have.

      • Ok Jake,
        I Kind of agree with with you. The way that I see it is Forrest said don’t mess with his poem, and what that told me was the poem has the needs to what a searcher needs as far as an answer to each sentence or stanza, how ever your deciphering the poem. Draw a separate line and put the answers there. I don’t believe that “f” planned on switching out anyone of the words in the poem with a answer that someone gets. That would most definitely be messing with his poem in a large way.

  34. Instances of avid fishing/boating terminology in FF’s poem:
    1. Warm waters 2.Take it in the canyon down 3.Put in below 4.home of Brown 5.No paddle 6. Up your creek 7.Heavy loads 8. Water high 9. Worth the cold 10.In the wood

    Trite or apropos? Is it wise to ignore a prevailing context in favor of one that matches a given searcher’s sentimental favorite location?

    Recognizing this prevailing context does not mean any of the terms must be taken literally, only that they were chosen because they did have a history of common use in fishing lore. You then take it from that point onward.



    • Well, upthread I did say your interpretation was trite, and I’ll stick to that. You are using an almost literal interpretation of the poem, one that many, many searchers have latched on to through the years. Yet, still no treasure chest.

      To me, FF is a deep thinker and would never resort to using obvious clues that lead to some fishing hole.

      I trust that FF would instill a bit more profundity into the chase.

      • Ken you say, “To me, FF is a deep thinker and would never resort to using obvious clues that lead to some fishing hole.” – in response:

        Forrest once quipped, “When somebody finds that treasure chest, everybody’s going to say, ‘My God! Why didn’t I think of that?

        Why can’t the poem resort to using obvious clues that lead to some fishing hole? People have been trying to over-complicate the poem for six years – looking for some profound meaning. Why can’t the poem be a simple set of directions leading to a favorite fishing hole?

        Simple – you bet cha! Hope to prove I am right in a couple of weeks, and then you can say, ” ‘My God! Why didn’t I think of that?”

        Just the mutterings of very simple-minded old fool. JDA

        • JDA said:

          “Why can’t the poem resort to using obvious clues that lead to some fishing hole? … Why can’t the poem be a simple set of directions leading to a favorite fishing hole? ”
          JDA … it’s not that it “can’t”; it’s that it probably doesn’t. If the clues were obvious, the chest would have been found long ago.

          And after a long life lived of myriad wonderous adventures and wisdom gained, why would FF wish to have his bones placed near a … fishing hole (of all places). To me, that trivializes his life. Such a solution is banal and frivolous, in my opinion.

          • Much of Forrest’s life has been spent with a fishing pole in his hand. He was a fishing guide at 13. I suspect that Forrest finds that tying his own flies, and catching a “whopper” at his own hands ranks above being a successful art dealer, or his exploits in Viet Nam.

            Trivialize? I guess it depends on what is important to you.

            If I am correct, my “Beautiful Placid Little Pool” at the headwaters of a BEAUTIFUL waterfall, surrounded by several mountain peaks, amongst a BEAUTIFUL grove of pines is the PERFECT place for his bones to rest for a Millennia or more.

            Remember who Forrest is, and what HE would want – not what YOU might think is trivial or frivolous.

            Just my thoughts – JDA

          • JDA –

            I agree with you on some points and even if we are looking in different places I would like to put my two cents in here.

            I think FF picked a spot which was important and special to him I think we should all pay attention to what he said he could see from where he placed it.

            With what he could see – it should be rather high up – I think it is high up because of flooding from the creek. It could be in the opening of the forest – where the faint whispering sounds of the creek can be heard. (hear me all).

            It may help you to check on GE what is higher up than where you are looking – hope this helps and wish you good luck.

            PS -I also think it is near a wild rose bush which cannot be seen from GE. 🙂

          • Inthechaseto;

            Here is a quote from “My War for Me” – which I feel is important: ““After sitting on the edge of the waterfall and throwing rocks over the drop, the pilot said, “Let’s go.” The sound of the rushing water was stronger than the noise of the idling engine “.

            You say, “With what he could see – it should be rather high up – I think it is high up because of flooding from the creek. It could be in the opening of the forest – where the faint whispering sounds of the creek can be heard. (hear me all).”

            I can agree with the being high, since Forrest was at the TOP of the waterfall, I disagree with the “Faint whisper from the creek” part, because of the above quote.

            Just my interpretation of what Forrest has said. JDA

          • Something else about that waterfall caught my eye. It is important in my solve. “dropped water so far that it turned to mist before it could spread on the rocks below”. Use that information to follow the water cycle.

          • JDA –

            Just thinking out loud – doesn’t the top of a waterfall have to be at the top of the mountain? He said it’s not at the top – right?

          • In the chase to

            Not by a couple of miles. There are two streams that are glacier fed higher up the mountain, that converge to form my stream. It flows gently down hill for a ways, goes into my Beautiful Placid Little Pool, and then empties out, and cascaded quite violently downhill forming the waterfall, and then on down the valley. No paddles allowed here, but a mile farther down stream, kayakers are seen.

            Not as pretty a picture as Focused would paint, but hope you get the picture.


      • My interpretation is that we cross a waterway for the purpose of shortening the path walking to the TC. Also knowing where to start is crucial so understanding the clues in the correct context is crucial. IMO the TC is not continually underwater or even regularly submerged but is subject to moisture as most things are in a 24 hour day in most types of outdoor environments.

  35. I have enough degrees to know I am educated. But, reading everyone’s posts I also know all those degrees doesn’t mean I’m smart. Lots of folks here a lot more “smarts” than I have. I tip my hat to you all. Happy searching. Still have no idea what “it” means or how it is necessary for the sentence construction. Also, there are some odd commas in that poem that must have meaning by where they are placed.

  36. If there is a page for “not far but too far to walk”, I can’t find it.
    Found an interesting definition for “not” that actually fits pretty nicely with my solve.

    “The knot (/nɒt/) is a unit of speed equal to one nautical mile (1.852 km) per hour, approximately 1.151 mph.[1] The ISO Standard symbol for the knot is kn.[2] The same symbol is preferred by the IEEE; kt is also common. The knot is a non-SI unit that is “accepted for use with the SI”.[3] Worldwide, the knot is used in meteorology, and in maritime and air navigation—for example, a vessel travelling at 1 knot along a meridian travels approximately one minute of geographic latitude in one hour.” (Wikepedia)

    “Etymologically, the term derives from counting the number of knots in the line that unspooled from the reel of a chip log in a specific time.”

    Why is this interesting? The etymological definiton seems to tie into the story about “Teachers with ropes” which also fits quite nicely with my solve.

    Just thought I would share.

    • I know that I am simple-minded, but for the life of me, I can not figure out why people ignore Forrest’s words. He naned a book, “Too Far to Walk.” HINT – HINT – HINT – In the preface he says, ” The river distance was about ten miles, …For me now, it’s just too far to walk.”

      How far is “Not far, but too far to walk”? – how about, about ten miles?

      It sure works for my solve…almost exactly 10 miles by road, and 11.3 miles if I go by boat or kayak or other water conveyance.

      Why not take Forrest at his word?


      • If all we need is in the poem, then we don’t need that statement about 10 miles being too far to walk. We need to be able to use the words in the poem to figure out what the poem says. So if all we have is the words “too far to walk” and those words are supposed to contain the information we need then we can only apply various definitions to those words to come up with an answer.

        By the way, I walk 10 miles almost every day. Just checked in with my fitbit challenge to see if I was on target for today.

        All we need is the POEM!

        • The poem, his book(s) and a good map – why limit yourself? You may easily walk 10 miles a day – Forrest was 79 or 80. Who says you have to walk? You can drive, but KNOW that the distance that you drive is Not far, but too far for an 80 Years old man to walk – just like he said. Why ignore what he says? Do you ignore all of his interviews as well? Not likely. Be a Poem Purist – that is your choice. I will use EVERY TOOL I am offered…but that is just me.

          Good Luck JDA

          • I just think the line has a different meaning and was offering a different option. I have an 82 year old friend that regualarly hikes over 10 miles at a time. But, you could be right JDA.

      • JDA ,

        Thought you might like this . . .

        “Only those who will risk going too far can possibly find out how far one can go.”

        -T.S. Eliot-

      • JDA, my solve’s “too far to walk” is a multiple of the
        ten miles (or so?) you suggest.

        The above is just my opinion.

        Good luck in your search. Please stay safe.

    • Puzzled— to be “in the wood” could refer to another definition for “knot”. Could tie in with what you were sharing.

  37. Enjoy your chase Jake.
    JD remember I told you if I told you what it was you would pull the hair right out of your head.
    Ok again road is the second it. All others are except first one I feel has no significance. I reserve the answer to that “it” at this time. Here is something I will send to alls way. On your solve consider that looking quickly down is not the end. Perhaps just perhaps a key to this is the word “but”. Consider that where you end after looking quickly down that from there somewhere around you is something that requires slow movement in a bare, barren, or Unfertile location.
    Remember I only post to aid. I have a general locale and that will never change. However my BOTG and Good map have led me to many wonderful and MAGNIFICENT curiosities. If my solve is not the one I wish all of you the best. By reading most of your(everyone’s) post here on this site I feel confident that you are deserving of the chest and would be handled wisely.
    All IMO of course.
    Forrest if your out there somewhere disobeying docs orders and are reading this, I feel it is safe to say again THANKS from all of us.

    • Thanks Ace, I can pretty much agree with you “IT”. Thanks.

      Thanks also for your nice words. I appreciate it.

      Take care, and good luck to YOU in all of your searches. May you find all that you seek.

      I agree that “Look quickly down” is NOT the end. It only tells you where to look, not how to look.

      TRY to STAY SAFE Ace


      • Thanks JD I honestly feel I am close but I most likely will not search again until next summer. Good luck to you as well.

  38. I am not Zap, but thought I would chime in anyway – OK?

    I once posted the following over on the “No place for the meek” thread:

    Here it is: :When I first started developing my “Solve”, once I had figured out wwwh, the canyon down, NFBTFTW and hoB, I was stumped for a couple of days until I spotted the name of a mountain, the name of a basin, and the name of a creek – all possessing the same word or name – all within a few miles of my hoB. This NAME is a name that the meek would not take pleasure in, although they might get some pleasure out of, IF they were willing to try it.

    Seems to fit this discussion.

    Hope that this helps someone. Good luck to all searchers, and TRY to STAY SAFE JDA

    • Don’t know how it wound up here – I was trying to post it under a comment by 1idwilthe – way up this thread – sorry. JDA

  39. I think Mr. Fenn should be getting a check every month from all TTOFTC people putting money into their treasuries. I’m betting the states are getting a lot more than 3 million in tourists as a result of this brilliant puzzle.

  40. An odd ENDING. ASK a kid.
    The ball of string was made into a rope so one might lead others and teach them along the way. “Teaching with ropes”. But what about 2 pies for a nickel and the KEY.
    O’ boy ANOTHER NEWBEE, all I ask is if you TRUST In Forrest Fenn. Look up the definitions of trust and read the rest.
    Two for a nickel, is that for two pieces or two broken pies? I would say two pies, and he would share with maybe a brother and sister? Now Mr. Fenn, a teacher “mentor” if I may sir, has trusted me with a pie to share. You laughing yet? I am.
    The key, HUMAN NATURE. This is the difficult part of unlocking the true treasures that are waiting. Now is the time to be Brave and maybe the TRUTH will set YOU FREE $. Please don’t laugh so hard you start crying yet, wait for “Ask a kid”. The big picture or the fade out of a great movie. Strangers TRUSTING each other and MEETING together to solve the poem. Sounds like a fairy tale. But I see them eating pie and not crow pie. Remove the will to fight or the greed that may cause it. Stop laughing here, think. Is it just to find the Chest your answer?
    Trust that Mr. Fenn has thought of everything. Ask your kid or child to grab the rope.
    Met a lot of nice people along the way and a few that would watch with their binoculars. One told me this, “You are trying to go up so and so trail and I have a really good pair of binoculars.” Creepy right. But I would ask his kid to grab the rope, and him to listen to the song signs. Yes I have a pony tail. And I went in to ask him WHY?
    This is for those that were there before me. I have rope knotted and waiting. Maybe some don’t have kids but that’s ok, I don’t. How many goats on that poster?
    I wrote in a poem, I would do what I could. Greed that’s up to you to change.. Canasta link, funny but no thank you. Life is full of adventure so I will be on to the next adventure. “Maybe teaching” lol. It may be generations before the greed is gone. This is my solve IMO.
    The stage is set, the players there, and one may play many parts. I like the Chief has called us together. So hear me all and listen well, six braves before him. Scout ahead to a place of warm waters. He then handed a trusted brave his spear.
    NOW CLASS, sorry always wanted to do that. hehe
    Basics, 101 Be honest with yourself. lol So please talk among yourselves. As I need a little break, my head hurts. lol

    • Whitebear;

      If this was a joke, I missed the punch line – sorry

      If it was meant to be serious, and meant to contribute something to the chase – I missed it also – sorry

      I give up. What was your intent by posting the above jibberish? JDA

    • Sorry All, That was not my style of writing or who I am. But felt intimidated online and in a park, and I blurted that out. I apologize. I do not have a spot only a theory and more questions than answers. I too lurked online for a few months but was botg most of the summer, again sorry. I’ll try to gather my thoughts and manners.

    • Robert, a good solve of any clue must be compatible with a
      good solve of any adjacent clue. I suggest you consider
      this while thinking about Wise or Wisdom, Montana.

      The above is just my opinion. Yours may differ.

      Good luck. Please stay safe.

  41. Great PIX of Forrest in his element, (one of them), drinking what looks like a Grapette soda.

    Gotta luv those stones ‘n rocks!


    • Don’t think it’s a Grapette. As I remember them they were in bottles. But, I understand Walmart bought the original recipe and may sell it in their stores, so I’m not positive. Haven’t tried the Walmart variety but loved the original Grapette of the 50’s. If you remember the bottles back then, you’re on Social Security today.

  42. Here are some odds and ends to keep in perspective. Forrest has said he walked less than a few miles to hide the treasure and made two trips. He also has repeatedly told us it is not in a dangerous location. Another comment he made is that if you know where it is, you could probably retrieve it in any weather. With that being said, I still scratch my head when I see searchers going into areas that are heavily populated by big wild animals that will devour you. When he says less than a few miles, I think it may mean a very, very short distance. If you believe what Forrest has said you can eliminate quite a few places that are either too far off the beaten path or in dangerous country. Whenever the chest is found, I think the solve will really show just how cleverly hidden the treasure was and that it backs up all of Forrest’s statements from over the years.

    Forrest has also said that some searchers have figured out the first two clues and went right on past the treasure. He has also said that some searcher/s have come within 200′ and 500′ but didn’t know it. One thought that I have is that the clues are stacked so tightly upon each other that it would be very easy to miss some or all of them. I’m thinking from the beginning to end could be less than one mile. Maybe even less than that.

    Just some food for thought. Any other ideas from fellow searchers?

    • Hear me all, my solve’s total length-of-travel, from the
      first clue to the TC is between about 50-100 miles,
      because there is a bit of vagueness in the poem.
      The vagueness doesn’t really have much effect.
      If you correctly solve the first clue, then the second
      one practically falls into place by itself (almost a
      no-brainer). The third is a bit more challenging,
      and indicates a location about 45 miles from the
      location of the second clue. Starting with the
      third clue’s location, all of the subsequent ones
      are within 3 miles or so, as travelled . . . more
      like 2 miles as the crow flies. This is why, I think,
      that FF was so reluctant to tell us what HOB is. He
      figured that if we knew that, the rest of the search
      would be a virtual cakewalk — and this is quite true
      for my solve; my confidence is extremely high, and
      on my next (third, to the same location) search trip,
      I’ll be looking for the TC in a zone that is only about
      200 feet square (rough estimate of size and shape).
      This area should be searchable, once I’m there, in
      about an hour or two. It’s the shlepping of the goodies
      that will be a bit of a challenge. But I’ll figure out a way
      to do it. Maybe in several trips, like FF did. By the
      way, I believe he parked within a thousand feet or so
      of where he hid the TC. I don’t plan to do this, and I
      don’t think that FF would actually want a searcher to
      do this. I think he did it not for privacy, but to save
      himself a hike of more than a mile, carrying the goodies.

      The above is all just my opinion. Yours may differ.

      • 45 miles from the second clue to the third clue seems suspect to me. I’d recommend looking into a quote from Forrest along the lines of “searchers routinely solve the first 2 clues and go right past the other 7.” There’s a few other instances where Forrest mentions people going past the chest. I think the distance from the second to the third clue is closer than most people think.

        • I don’t think more than 2 people (or groups) have solved the first 2 clues.
          The larger number of people were within 200′ or 500′, but didn’t tell Forrest their solve so he wasn’t sure if they solved the first FOUR clues.

          That’s a clue in itself, I think.
          Does that mean that the chest is hidden within 500′ of the 4th clue?
          Not necessarily, in my solve the comment makes perfect sense, yet the treasure would be hidden quite some distance beyond the 4th clue. 2-3 miles beyond it. Maybe even farther.

          • Buckeye,
            There was a in-depth discussion about searchers and the first two clue as well as the remaining seven, and the chest. a few of us attempted to finalize all of fenn’s comments, Q&A’s and such to try and come to a reasonable conclusion regarding what was what…
            [ do be honest, what set off the conversation and research was, if those people were active searchers or tourist at the time ].

            IMO ~ only… the others involved can speak for themselves… Most of the same searcher who were at the first two clues were the same who passed by the other seven and the chest. The thing about this was… how did all those who were in the exact location of the clues [head count aside] apparently didn’t know they were there or the significance of where they were?

            For me personally, it doesn’t matter what the head count is, but why these folks who live and breathe the poem and the chase, didn’t know what the clues were, even when at the correct spot / locations?

          • Seeker asked, “Most of the same searcher(s) who were at the first two clues were the same who passed by the other seven and the chest. The thing about this was…how did all those who were in the exact location of the clues [head count aside] apparently didn’t know they were there or the significance of where they were?” The simplest answer, Seeker, is that they not only didn’t solve the 3rd clue, they didn’t even recognize it in the poem. The third clue is hard. I would opine that many will find it harder than the first clue.

          • Seeker, I think a lot of searchers were taking stabs in the dark.
            $1 million can get those feet moving even on a hunch.

        • Hi Buckeye Bob,

          Re: “I don’t think more than 2 people (or groups) have solved the first 2 clues.” Hmm; I’m one of them. I wonder who the other one is? (grin) More realistically, I bet dozens have solved the first two clues. They’re just wise enough not to post their solution on Dal’s blog.

          • (zaphod from previous post) “searchers didn’t recognize the 3rd clue in the poem” I agree. home of Brown is the most common 3rd clue so I’m guessing “not far but too far to walk” is your 3rd clue?

          • Hi kg — it’s difficult to speak of clue numberings because you can assign numbers to them in multiple ways. Is it the order you encounter them in the poem? Is it the order you would encounter them on site? Is it the order in which you recognized them, or the order that you solved them? Suffice to say that home of Brown is not the third thing I solved, the poem is not as linear as people make it out to be, and “not far, but too far to walk” is an important clue that needs to be solved.

          • So how does forrest number the clues? I’ve always assumed it was in the order they appear on the poem but now I’m not to sure

          • Kg: it’s possible that Forrest doesn’t number the clues. Just because he totaled them up doesn’t mean there is a right way or wrong way to assign numbers to them. You might not want to assume that the order the clues appear in the poem is the same as how you will encounter those places or things in person.

          • Forrest absolutely numbers the clues. He’s said “people have solved the FIRST 2 clues and went the other 7” He’s said searchers may have solved the first 4 clues

          • Zaph, I think you’re probably right. There could be a lot of people who have the first 2 clues right.
            But that leaves 7 clue and 7 opportunities to go off course.

          • It’s definitely possible that the clues are out of order, but I still believe Forrest has a way of numbering his clues. Is it the order they should be followed? Or the order they are solved? or something else?

  43. Hear me all;

    In my solve

    From wwwh to hoB = 10 miles (9.89) – by car
    From hoB to meek – 2.5 miles – by car
    From meek to “END” = 6.7 – total 9.2 from hoB – by car
    From END to no paddle 1/2 mile
    From no paddle to blaze = 1/4 mile – total 3/4 mile hiking
    From blaze to TC probably < 50' – Do not know yet – don't have it YET

    Total – almost exactly 20 miles one way, and same 20 miles out. Only one way in, only one way out.

    So, I guess that I disagree that the clues are stacked on top of one another.

    Just my opinion, because it fits my solve – JDA

    • Does your wwwh have anything to do with being nailed down, staying home, or playing Canasta? Hope so, if not, time to rethink…

      • Charlie after 5 1/2 years of this and countless solves I have come to believe wwwh has nothing to do with warm or water just halt

        • Tonto after 5 1/2 years also of this and countless etc…etc…etc… I almost agree with you. For me, there is water NEAR by, but mostly has to do with “halt”. I also think f was giving us a little hint with his “stay home and play Canasta” statement. Like either: nailed down, or stay home, or play Canasta. Maybe something like a hammer reference, or playing cards, or sick from school, (those are just examples). Something where you can see something in your WWWH is that could have a double meaning with something in that statement.

    • My total distance is (about) 30 miles, using your formula. I’d have to substitute “as the crow flies” though, on some of it.
      I have anywhere from 200′ to 1.5 miles of hiking one way.

      And I think my search zone will be stunningly beautiful.
      If I’m lucky enough to find the treasure, I think I’ll name the area “Fenn’s (something or other)”.
      I wonder if there’s a way to make a name official?

  44. Thanks for all the well wishing Y’all.
    Starting to rain & snow a little here & my search area but getting warmer so it will be all rain & scattered thunderstorms although those are well to the south at this time.
    I’m waiting for my hiking companion to get back from errands to see if she still wants to go for the gold.
    It’s in the high 30’s here & very comforting from the high heat & humidity from south Florida where the air is stagnant & you can cut it with a knife.
    Here’s a short grainy video of inside Cinnamon Lodge where I am staying & was wondering if those are Clovis points in the frame?

        • I still don’t understand what I’m supposed to “do” differently to help. Said not to have both out at same time?

        • pdenver, I asked the owner of the lodge & she said those were given to her by her father & didn’t know if there were any cloves points there.
          Her father lives in Arizona & the arrowheads probably came from there or New Mexico.
          Resting today after the hike & search & will be back out tomorrow.

    • I don’t thik so Jake. Clovis are usally longer and about 1 1/2 inches across. Also the tips are more rounded to the point.

  45. It seems to me since Mr. Fenn has told us that no one has analyzed one important concept related to the correct solve, perhaps we should open a discussion on what that might be… TTOTC opens with ‘Important Literature’. In this chapter he discusses several books, but I thought it was interesting that he describes the plot of ‘A Farewell to Arms’ as the plot for ‘For Whom the Bell Tolls’. Maybe this is Mr. Fenn’s way of telling us the places in his book like Yellowstone or the Madison River are actually descriptions related to other locations. Maybe he is hinting that we should look at his old places for clues to related new places. This places ‘Tea with Olga’ and some other stories in an interesting light. Something to make one think deeply or shed tears may be considered heavy loads and water high. I think a hidden grave marker dedicated to a French Soldier would make an excellent blaze. That last bit may be sharing too much, but, since I am not in possession of the chest, the only thing I am sure of is that I am missing something… Any other thoughts on ‘errors’ in the book or other ideas on the important concept?

    • Yeti;

      I could well be wrong, but I think that that important concept is the circular architecture of the poem. I feel that “in the wood” describes an area in Wyoming. That you take this info and insert it “in there” in stanza #1, and that from there, it tells you exactly which wwwh you need to start at, instead of just guessing or throwing darts at a map.

      Yes, you begin your quest at wwwh, but “in the wood” in stanza #g tells you where “in there” is in stanza #1 and this lets you easily figure out where the correct wwwh is.

      Hope that this makes sense…but what do I know? Probably very little. JDA

      • JDA, I like your line of thinking here. It also fits with where I am looking, but in a slightly different way. This is a bit difficult to explain without giving away my exact location, but in short, my wwwh is both the beginning of my search and a way to find the end. Interesting that the very first letter in the book is a very pronounced ‘A’ and the last is an omega; Alpha and Omega…Beginning and the end (just a thought). One time through the clues allowed me to identify wwwh, which then became the starting point for my second time through the poem (talking in circles?), just in a different way. I think I may need to figure out another circle or two, but it ‘feels’ like I am on the right track… For those that believe the book is not important, and all that is needed is the poem, I would just say be careful what you know. I may be dead wrong here, but Mr. Fenn’s answers tend to be a bit of a double edged sword. The only straight answer on the subject I was able to find is where he gave the advice to read the book and then the poem several times over, but, like I said before, the only thing I know for sure is that I do not have the chest… As for me, I will continue to keep an open mind to all possibilities.

      • JDA…that fits with my solve. i agree. I had the WWWH and HOB however before I realized what in the wood might be if it’s not a lapwood canoe.

    • Yeti,

      You said ” he describes the plot of ‘A Farewell to Arms’ as the plot for ‘For Whom the Bell Tolls’. ”

      I did not pick this up. Did he tell us he did that or did you just pick that up? Very interesting.

      He mentioned in that chapter the book “catcher in the rye” . In that book the protanganist mistakes the words for the song that the book is named after.

      I like your line of thinking.

  46. Im curious if anyone has considered areas that are on map but not technically a part of the Rocky mountains? Or locations in the states but not highlighted boldly on the map. Has Forrest ever clarified if the TC is in The Rocky Mountains or just in mountains that are Rocky? And did the mapmaker highlight the map or did Forrest choose the boundaries?

    • Leza,
      Your question is answered in TFTW.
      “Forrest Fenn’s hidden treasure is somewhere to be found within the highlighted region of the Rocky Mountains on this map”

      • Speaking of maps…We are starting a new contest as soon as I get to a decent internet connection…next day or two…
        The prize will be one of those large wall maps that sold for $100. This one is signed by Forrest and numbered…

        • 🙂

          Who bought the map?
          Did f buy the map?
          If f bought the map, did he specify which “number” he wanted?
          Did he buy a special pen for signing?
          Did he use a flashlight for illumination?
          Did he partake of a sandwich before, during or after the signing?
          If so, what kind of sandwich was it?
          Did he sign the map during a full moon?
          Does the pen he used come with the map?
          Did he drink a Grapette while signing?
          What room of his house did he sign the map in?
          Did he use his right hand, or left?
          Was f standing or sitting when he signed it?
          Did he have his spectacles on?
          Was he wearing the “Cuddles? Or the wannabee’s?
          Did f have his favorite belt buckle on?
          Did f allow anyone to witness his signing?
          Did the tangled phone cord get in the way?
          If I win it, can I get Dal and Goofy to sign it????

          🙂 🙂

          • I bought a copy of the map. # 58 signed by Mr. Fenn. I also won a second copy of the map by winning the Forrest Fenn trivia contest at fennboree 2016. I do not know the number because I have not opened the tube. The signature on the map I purchased matches the signature in my books.

            Windy City

          • Yes, it will always be a treasure. Kudos to Spallies. She was in it until the end, and one tough, knowledgeable competitor. I knew that she wanted a copy of the map. I did not know that she had received that as a 2nd place prize. I asked Sacha to give Spallies my map that I had won since I had one that I bought. After learning that she was given a copy for 2nd place, I kept the prize in whole which included several other search related items in addition to the map.

          • You’re a kind person, Windy City. It sure looked like everyone had a wonderful time and I would have loved to have met everyone and to share in the fun.

          • @Windy City

            My wife and I (and Suzy Q) met you at Fennboree this year. We chatted a little. Anyway, we cannot afford one of the maps at this time. I have a new TFTW book to trade if you are willing. Yes, it’s not exactly an even trade… maybe I could kick in a few $ when payday rolls around. Let me know, yay or nay.


          • Wow! Windy that is so nice of you… You have restored my faith in humanity… I might have felt a bit guilty if it was the proof copy… 🙂 Fennbore was a blast…:)

        • Hi Windy,

          I noticed from the photos that one of the prize maps was actually a proof (1 of 2). Proofs are more valuable because they are not for sale and usually only distributed as gifts from the artist.

          Probably number 2 of 2 is still with Forrest, but maybe it’s worth checking what’s in the tube…

        • Great Dal
          I’ve been waiting for something new.
          To puzzle and others, remember, this is a poem of clues not just your average day poem. These types of poems have to be read differently from a regular poem.
          Can’t wait Dal…

    • The map maker website says that they made the map especially for FF but I don’t know who defined the boundaries except that they are labelled.

  47. I have an odds and ends question for ya all…..
    Has anyone come across in their research anything to do with royalty? Something like a king, queen, prince, or princess?
    Thanks for any insight.

    • Friend ,

      Yes. Sir Elton Hercules John.

      f mentions him in a scrapbook (?) somewhere. Don’t remember which one. In my notes somewhere, but too lazy to go look for it right now.

      ” What do I do when lightning strikes me . . . sorry seems to be the hardest word . . .”

      Then, there’s the Philadelphia Freedom . . .

      Tasty morsel indeed, if you follow it correctly.

      • Knights are not royalty or even members of the peerage… but they do have a title..

        I like the lightning reference… or maybe “Rocket Man” can be the blaze…

        • Muset ,

          Yes, I am well aware of that.

          Friend’s question was ” . . .anything to do with . . .”

          I took that to mean “connected with”.

          • Knight :

            ” (Originally) a person of noble birth . . .”

            Knight :

            horseback rider

            Yes, I’ve did my research.

          • In olden times, when one was knighted, he was required to kneel and bow his head. (look quickly down).

            If a knight is positioned in the center of the chessboard, all of his possible moves, when combined, form a circle.

            If I am that knight, it would be “me in the middle”.

      • Friend,

        Elton John was a guest at the *Beverly Hills home of Michael Douglas while Forrest was also visiting. I recall something about Elton appearing poolside while Forrest was there.


          • SL ,

            Sorry, don’t know where I got pdenver out of that. Must be the old-timers disease creeping in.

            But yes, that was the one I was referring to.

          • This SB had this question Goofy presented, and while I have asked this prior, Fenn comment…born a hundred years earlier… still begs the question, is the poem solvable 100 year or more ago?


            Goofy_Old_Guy on July 6, 2014 at 10:41 pm said:
            Lifestyles of the rich and famous……must be rough.
            Fenn, maybe I should go through official channels over at Jenny Kiles’s to ask this question. I was just wondering what you picture yourself doing had you been born a hundred years earlier……..and if we would now be looking for a hundred year old treasure hidden some place.


            This relates to the time and/or type of mapping that ‘might’ need consideration in helping with the places the clues refer to… as well as the time and type of information within the book [TTOTC].
            If we look at NM; 1912
            If fenn would have been born 100 years earlier … Approx 1830… and if the poem could be solved in this time period… are we looking too hard for names of places, people, events etc. of this time period?

            Fenn as used the words… “good” “right” map[s], and has stated the more detailed a map the better… what ‘details’ are we actually looking for? Are any modern locations such as, mountains names or roads or even that named range, states etc. needed to be known?

            While some here enjoy chatting about royalty and celebrities, I was wondering if there might be some who think that the types of things [ information ] the book offers, is related to the past and the future solving of the places the clues refer to…

          • Well Seeker, old maps haven’t helped me…..yet. Over the years I’ve collected many old maps. I’ve even created a layer for many of them in my mapping program.

            They are interesting to look at; some are very accurate (amazing for the time) and some I haven’t been able to match at all with the area they are supposed to cover. Some maps have a really interesting history and some were erroneous on purpose.

            Fenn’s map quote and his comment here sent me down the old map/word rabbit hole.

            Fenn commented:
            And the word may be used colloquially


          • Goofy I’m glad you mentioned that…
            (of language) used in ordinary or familiar conversation; not formal or literary.
            synonyms: informal, conversational, everyday, nonliterary; More

            Dal was talking about the “path”. [basically]

            And this is to my point… are we to think, use, examine maps as ‘formal’?
            Does an architect need labels to show how something is put together, or a geologist need labels to study the solids and liquids matter that constitutes the Earth surface? Does geography need labeling?
            A tree is a tree, water is water, land is land, mountains, valleys, woodland, rivers, lakes etc.
            Why are we so hung up on labeling [names] to match something as a clue. and if that was the case… what map [ time period ] is needed to do that?

            imo that is the rabbit hole.

            I really wished fenn answered your question… it was a good one.

          • Seeker you asked: Does an architect need labels to show how something is put together, or a geologist need labels to study the solids and liquids matter that constitutes the Earth surface? Does geography need labeling?

            Is that a trick question? 🙂 If not my answer is WELL DUH……..All of the above need labels if you are going to tell anyone else about it. Explorers, and/or people living in an area gave descriptive names to identify locations for many reasons.

            There are official names and then there are colloquial names. Some of the old maps have colloquial names listed. Some have “official names” and some have both. It is very interesting.

            Apparently you don’t like names on a map……how do you get to where you are going? Better yet give me an example of where the poem leads you without a label.

          • Hi Seeker — let me just say that if Fenn’s poem is not point-to-point, I will … let Jake eat his hat.

          • Goofy,

            Fenn told us about the “mountains” north of his residence. I worded it that way to make my point. While we knew fenn lived in SF, The mountains were never named. [ not until much later in a Q&A ]
            Later, Canada was knocked out of the running for the “location of the chest”… but was Canada needed to be know?
            In my “unpopular attempt” I described one of Canada’s national symbol and did the same with the USA to give a boundary area…. but I backed it up with the use of the semicolon and where it was placed in the poem to show 1/2 of the Mountain Range.

            These are example of how we can read the poem by seeing descriptions over names… Canada, the US, the Border, the countries Symbols, are used to tell ‘my’ description for discussion purpose and not needed to read the poem.
            Such as no place for the meek to be the CD [ back bone of the RM’s ] as well as the USA for home of the brave [Symbol the American bald Eagle]

            We can see clearly on many maps the CD, the border, etc. and this is why I tend to think ‘creek’ ~ not as water, but a narrow passage or the CD. Finishing the overall view as heavy loads and water high to be the big picture. No names needed to see these… just examining physical location of the planets surface by descriptions given to us.

            Conclusion for this view would be the watershed of the range. You might say we would need to know the names of the countries national symbols, but I could argue the reason for Brown to be capitalized… hinting to a name. But are all the other places names needed to be known of or just the descriptions of what we see on map[s]
            below hoB
            no meek
            creek [ passage]
            big picture

            There are many WWWH is the RM’s and nearly all are north of SF…
            Are we over simplifying the clues [WWWh] by trying to find a name for one place?

            Unpopular attempt was supposed to be a joke… lol.. I guess I was wrong. The title fits well.

          • Ha! Seeker, you’re using labels to describe how you are not using labels.

            I figure the solution is either an obscure place hidden within someplace more well known and one will have to be wise to understand the labels in the poem, and probably have to be on location to figure it out.

            Or the poem is some magical code that gives a precise location of the chest, without labels according to you.

            There have been many thousands threading a track through the wilderness searching for the chest coming up empty handed. And there have been many times the number of people physically searching racking their brains trying to come up with the magic formula to decipher the poem.

            I’m out looking for the magic place and you are looking for the magic formula. So far we are both wrong.

          • Hi Goofy/Seeker – With 166 poem words, I think it is quite impossible to direct someone to such a tiny target without using the labels from the (right) map(s). As I wrote Seeker not long ago, a map without labels is really just a picture. And while a picture is worth a thousand words, we have the reverse problem. We have a tiny destination hidden within a comparatively gigantic picture. We need navigation instructions.

            Some number of people (only Fenn has a reasonable guess how many) have reasoned out the correct starting point. They may not be 100% sure, but they are maybe 99% sure. Added to this small group is apparently an even larger group of people (many of whom knowing nothing of Forrest’s treasure) who have passed through the starting point oblivious to the fact. So it is probably a well-traveled spot.

            That there even *is* a starting point implies that a specific path must be followed. Forrest seems pretty confident that no one will find the blaze without figuring out the starting point first, and that’s a pretty strong indication that the two are not co-located.

            I think Seeker’s alternative approach was somewhat borne of the notion that the point-to-point boot-stomping approach has produced bupkis in 6 years, and that it therefore might be wrong. But I think it’s actually the right approach — by virtue of the fact that a non-zero number of people have solved two and possibly 3 or 4 clues. I just think the first clue in the poem is a huge discriminator, and even if you find it, figuring out WWWH is non-trivial, and the clue that follows WWWH is evidently lost on most of the people who have figured out the correct starting point.

          • About maps, the new topographic maps have eliminated the old historical places, cabins, mines, sites, names, etc. Look at a 1950 topo and a recent one, the new one is almost blank. The newer maps have less detail. Which really grinds my chops.

        • Seeker ,

          Have you used anything / everything / a little bit / a lot, f has said, to put together a completed possible solve ?

          If so, how confident have you been to test your theorie(s) with actual botg ?

          Has f spent even the slightest amount of time “talking about” celebrities ? hmmm . . .

          Maybe you know something that the rest of us don’t?

          Do you actually spend time trying to put together a possible solve, or do you devote most of your time grasping for the right words to ridicule everyone else’s ?

          Do you feel as though you will eventually “put it all together” by challenging everyone else here on this blog ?

          According to your logic, we are all attempting to solve this thing in the wrong fashion.

          The questions you ask above, have been addressed too many times to list, yet you continue asking them relentlessly.

          Do you have anything positive to offer, or is it simply clear to you that everyone else here is clueless?

          Please, feel free to enlighten us.

          f didn’t write the poem using clues that would lead Moses to the chest.

          • Apparently I’m not as popular as I thought.
            Nope RT. None of the above… I just play video games.

            What I find hilarious about your questions to me are… you seem to imply you’re talking for everyone on the blog. I’m pretty sure others bloggers can talk for themselves.

            If you want a serious conversation about any topic relating to the chase… ask a serious question with out the BS sarcasm, i’m all for it… But do your homework first… all that you have complained about, Solves, positive ideas offered, ” everything / a little bit / a lot, f has said,”
            has been suggested by me numerous times. But I always find it fun when those who don’t agree with my posts / questions / discussion whine and complain I never add anything.

          • Hey Roll Tide
            Personally I really like Seeker’s comments and ideas…they go against the grain in some cases and are often not in line with common ideas in regards to solving the clues to the Poem. This may be what is needed to crack the case. Seeker has given many serious ideas freely here, and I do admire that.

          • I like seeker’s perspective as well. I am a newby and when I posted answers to Seekers questions about my solve, I was ridiculed immediately. I wonder what the response would be if I or another newby found Indulgence. My word (in life) that is key is respect. Please all, be respectful.

        • Goofy ,

          ” I feel the solution is either an obscure place hidden within someplace more well known and one will have to be wise to understand the labels in the poem, and probably have to be on location to figure it out.”


      • Seeker ,

        You want a serious conversation? Let’s start with this one.
        (or maybe you will tell me it’s not chase-related?)

        Butterfly = Flutterby

        Now, do you think that might be a hint of sorts ( I do ), or do you believe f felt the need to share that with us just to show us how clever his grand-daughter is ?

        Flutterby is what’s known as a “spoonerism”. Here are a couple more examples :

        well-boiled icicle = well-oiled bicycle
        half-formed wish = half-warmed fish
        shake a tower = take a shower

        Now, if you think flutterby is just f showing us how clever his g-daughter is, there are no worries on my part, I’ll take it and run with it .

        I personally feel it is presented for a reason. And it fits nicely into my completed solve. Which, by the way, gave me an “F” at my blaze.

        • I’m with you Roll, Seeker is a moron. The first good thought that enters his head will be the… Wait, (in a whisper), he has stirred up some good conversation, and has contributed a lot of his thought process, oh, and did remind me of the med, wheel thing that was good info. You know what, scratch what I said earlier Roll, you’re on your own on this one.

          The guy has been contributing for the last 3+ years now. A lot of his ideas are used with many solves. Whether one wants to go with his thoughts are on that person. But to say “Do you have anything positive to offer, or is it simply clear to you that everyone else here is clueless?” is just foolish. Why would he ask us our opinions if he thought we were clueless? Yes, I think you are wrong on this one Roll.

          Oh, butterfly is a flutterby is easy. He is exchanging two like values. B=2, F=1,L=1. It is a hint, it helps support that there are numerical values for the letters. Believe it or not, it is the best example and obvious. Just that easy.

          • Charlie ,

            I can respect your opinion. I believe Everyone is entitled to that. But, where does your fist end and my nose begin?

            So, do you think the poem could / should be solved with numerical values?

            Would that be a code ?

          • Roll, didn’t mean to throw a jab your way, was just disagreeing with your rant on a fellow searcher that obviously people like on this site.

            Anyway, no code, in fact, think about it, the English language is a form of a code. But, don’t rule out codes by the way. Going by memory, he said those forms will not help in finding the treasure, BUT, then came back with, but they have been offered as POSITIVE solves. It’s another f statement that can be looked at in different ways. Why didn’t he say they were offered in NEGATIVE solves since they won’t help?

            There is just too much info that points to letter values. Some say “no” flat out, and that is dumb to me. Don’t think so, fine, but everyone has a lot of notes. Title one page “other peoples thoughts, and try to find the values of the letters that f put in the poem. There has to be a number sequence somewhere, has to be. Could not go in confidence without them some way shape or form. And again, the poem cannot be solved by just this way, it’s just a help that answers a lot of questions.

        • In my opinion, by giving the example of butterfly vs flutterby , Fenn gives a clue about anagrams. He says, a full anagram(no letters left behind) is game.

          • C’mon charlie,

            Go back and read everything that led up to my “rant”.

            Me and another searcher had a conversation going and Seeker took a shot at it. I simply fired back in a more direct way than he did.

            My comment about “jab” was not directed at you.

            Seeker knows as well as I do what the intent of his statement was. Whether or not he intends to own it, remains to be seen.

            But, I’m smart enough to know not to bring a knife to a gunfight so, I’m letting it go before Goofy fires the big-gun.

          • Good call. There is at least one anagram in every single line of the poem. Steganography too, in every single line. I believe it is the two trips Forrest talks about.

        • Me thinks Butterfly = Flutterby is special since both words tend to convey meaning or thought for the same object. Other spoonerisms are clever, but many pairs often convey to me very different meanings or thoughts. I think I can safely say it has something or nothing to do with the solution. Good hunting.

      • Respect was Xactly what I was getting at. A subtle jab is still a jab, nonetheless.

        I suppose “chatting about royalty and celebrities” is not even good enough to fall under the category of “unpopular attempt to solve the poem”.

        “newby”? Been there, done that, still there, still doing that. You’re preaching to the choir.

        I too, sincerely hope that it is a “newbie” who finds this treasure.

        • I guess I was reading Seekers comments to be about how a child would interpret the “directions” or how a child would give directions if he/she didn’t know the official name of each place. The place where warm waters halt (like where a hot spring combines with a river as opposed to the end of a body of water called Warm Springs. Would that also be what is meant by colloquial? I may not be truly understanding what Seeker was trying to say or even understand colloquial.

          • I was once in Tennessee. A gentleman used the term “flowerty”.

            I was not sure I had heard him correctly, and asked him to repeat it – He again said, “Flowerty” …”You know, having lots of flowers” – this was a colloquialism I was unfamiliar with. A “Down Home” way of talking.

            Seeker is probably familiar with the term. JDA

          • I think it could be very helpful to show
            the poem to a child — preferably one
            who was raised in America. There is
            some cultural awareness that could
            play a big part in a valid solve of the
            poem. And children also tend to
            use imagination in their thinking . . .
            more so than some adults do.

            Thinking like a child helped me with
            my solve, in which my confidence is
            very high. No conflicts or vagaries
            exist in it. But a BOTG search will
            still be necessary, as the poem
            narrows the search area to about
            half the size of a football field.

            The above is just my opinion. Yours
            may differ.

    • Friend ,

      Prince :

      ruler ( think “Frosty” )
      ugly duckling ( think “homely girl” )

        • Friend ,

          Another possible hint to nobility / royalty ?

          John Montagu , 4th Earl of Sandwich.

          Lord sandwich would ask his valet to bring him meat tucked in between bread, so that he wouldn’t have to interrupt his card games by getting up and dining at the table.

          Other players would say ” I’ll have the same as Sandwich”.

      • JDA ,

        Being from Bama, I heard that all my life.

        After moving west, it took years to break myself from a lot of the words I’d grown up using all my life.

        Everyone would genuinely laugh every time I said I was going outside to “crank” the car to let it warm up. They always were quick to let me know that they don’t “crank” their cars out here , they “start” them.

        Thanks for that, it brought a smile to my face.

  48. Was just reading up again on scrapbooks, etc and found one thing I wonder about. Any thoughts on this: Blueberries are red when they are green. Am thinking about Brown.

    • Shamag ,

      I still tend to believe that the real meat-and-potatoes of that scrapbook is not so much the blueberries, but rather ,

      “When North Winds Blow” by Walter Emerson.

      From the book : ” And, as one of my real author acquaintances once remarked when I asked him for an autograph copy “if your friends don’t buy your books, who will?”

      • Shamag –

        IMO this scrapbook is in three parts…….first the Aspen trees ……..then the running man ……..and then the feet resting – after all that hunting.

        Aspen trees are all connected under ground. They are the largest living organism on the planet. If one dies – more will take it’s place. The grove it’s self will last a long long time. So IMO look for aspen trees – not only on the ground – but on GE.

        On scrapbooks – not many pay attention to the title. I have always found the title to be important on almost everything in this chase. This one is “The winds of Change” – I just explained how to aspens will change.

        • Interesting that you pay attention to the title and you believe not many do. However, I choose to pay attention to those items everyone else DOESN’T seem to pay attention to. I believe f would and always has paid attention to those items that everyone else DOESN’T seem to pay attention to. Another example: One important thing that no one has considered.

          • Shamag –

            You said “Another example: One important thing that no one has considered.”

            What do you think that would be?

      • I’m not looking for ‘meat and potatoes’. I’m looking for the things most people completely ignore which is what I believe ff does. Of course I may be wrong, but if everything else has been scrutinized why not find something that has not been scrutinized? Just sayin’.

        • Shamag ,

          I’m sorry , has ” When North Winds Blow ” by Walter Emerson been mentioned here before ? Or has it been “completely ignored”?

          After all, it is found in that very same scrapbook.

          • Shamag ,

            After thinking about it, if I mention anything at all to you, then technically it hasn’t been “completely ignored”.

            You’ve set the bar pretty high on that one, so, I don’t see how anyone here can help you.

          • Rolltide,

            Are you the spokesperson for someone other than yourself here? How can it be possible that you have already come to the conclusion that ‘not anyone on here’ will be able to help me on that one? Sheesh
            I will no longer have any comments. It appears that you are the ‘chosen’ one who is the one entitled to have opinions worthy of this site.
            Sorry to have bothered you

      • You found brown on a color wheel? I think maybe you’re looking at orange (red and yellow) might want to double check that. Not not licking FYI.

        Also side note in Eric’s books he talks about “Brown” as the various hues he ended up with inbox “scrap bucket” of left over paint mixed together. He goes on about how pain stores give his versions of “Browns a fancy name (I forget what names he comes up with but funny stuff like ‘Sepian Dirtage’ or whatever) because you can charge triple price if you give brown a chance name. Interesting if you look at his paintings he virtually never uses a true red. Not in any painting It’s the only color off his palate, just versions of umber and browns. The name thing reminded me of F though…..he’s probably the guy that would remarks Sloan’s dump buckets with fancy names and then rub it in to Eric how much he sold them for. Lol. Who knows, it was a neat passage though.

      • Shamag ,

        You said you were looking for things that have been totally ignored.

        I offered you something that, to my knowledge, has been totally ignored.

        You dismissed it.

        Please don’t stop posting because of me, I just won’t reply to any of your posts.

        I apologize for offending you.

  49. Any word on that new contest? And are we talking one of the original benchmark maps that I’ve never even heard of anyone owning? Sorry I’m a bit eager and get excited easily…..and needed to sub.

    Here’s a contribution for the post. Down actually originally meant “to end, as to come full circle” I’ll be thinking “first down Brown’s” all weekend and hoping those rat-birds just remain tarry scanting. Lol. Good definition with the water cycle/time/and various “rounds” thoughts though.

    Really though- what’s the word in the el contisto?

    • Jonsey1

      I can’t find the definition you mentioned online?
      Can you point us in the right direction?

      Your search – “to end, as to come full circle” definition down
      did not match any documents.



    • Found it. Thanks for pointing this out.

      Anglo-Saxon migration, from PIE root *dheue- “to close, finish, come full circle.”

  50. Inthechaseto: I do have a couple of ideas that may very well be the ‘important things’ ff mentioned. I’m sure ff knows that some day when the chest is found, and rightfully so that he should think this, that the ‘finding’ will be highly publicized. Which I’m sure it will. Having said that, I believe that the treasure chest that he hid will not be the only thing that will be highly publicized at that time. You see, I believe there are some things related to ff that no one knows about except for ff. Yet. At least one of those things is what I believe is the ‘important thing to be considered. I also believe it will take priority over the chest’s discovery. THAT is what will be remembered forever as having been accomplished by ff. Of course I could be wrong. But again, possibly not.

    • Shamag –

      I too am sure there are things we don’t know about ff…………

      Thanks for your reply to my question.

    • Shamag,

      If the “important possibility” that fenn is surprised no one has thought of, to be something as you said; “You see, I believe there are some things related to ff that no one knows about except for ff.”
      IF so, how would we know about it at all?

      If he is surprised that we have not mentioned this possibility … wouldn’t it be something we ‘should’ know about or at the very least, fenn mentioned in the book?

      • Seeker

        Yes, they are things that have definitely been mentioned in both the book and on ff’s site. That is exactly what I am saying when I say that considering things that (to my knowledge anyway) I have not seen discussed. Those things do not for some reason appear to be of interest to the majority as having importance to the search.

  51. Instead of just posting Subscribe i’ll tell you about my dream last night.

    I’ve dreamt about the chase more than once over the last year, but in last night’s dream, I walked and talked with Forest.

    We were in a grassy higher elevation valley with tree covered mountains all around. There was a beautiful steep sided, ten foot wide river winding through the valley. It was an overcast morning and the air and vegetation were heavy with moisture. We were walking atop the river bank just looking around. (I shouldn’t tell this part but I will). I pulled out a pipe took a hit, asked if he wanted one, he took a small one and handed it back. We continued to walk for a moment, shaking my head I said, “How beautiful is this.” We walked another couple steps and he replied, “Now you see the value in it.” “I do, I do” i replied. Then my 3 year old woke me as he does every morning at 6:50.

    Why couldn’t he have let me sleep just a few more minutes! Maybe Forrest would have told me where to look! All day I’ve pondered, The value in what! The Chase? What we were seeing? Nature? Life? The whole experience and the knowledge I’ve acquired over the year?

    Was there a message in my dream?
    Yes, for me there was and I hope you all discover the same thing.

    Be safe in your search, and try to see the value in it.

    PS. I did see a Pink Floyd cover band in Pittsburgh the night before, maybe that’s where the smoking thing came from. 🙂

  52. Searched yesterday below Taylor Falls & could not make it to my exact spot.
    Thinking there is another way or maybe an 80 yr old man can’t make it there.

    I put my camera in the water & when I reviewed the footage this morning, I saw a lonely trout & some weird looking bug zipping by the fish.
    I did not realize trout can be this far up a creek between many cascades & mini falls.

  53. I’ve always had a ‘strong’ sense that our Flyer is not quite what he has appeared to be. Forrest Fenn is more; much more. (A lot to wrap our minds around before it’s all said and done – IF it ever is.

    BTW…..Wouldn’t dismiss a helicopter.


  54. IMO

    Yeti Said:

    ” TTOTC opens with ‘Important Literature’. In this chapter he discusses several books, but I thought it was interesting that he describes the plot of ‘A Farewell to Arms’ as the plot for ‘For Whom the Bell Tolls’.”

    These are both poems, too. Also in that chapter Fenn talks about “Catcher in the rye” The title is from the main character mininterpreting/misunderstanding the poem “Coming Through the Rye”

    So we have Fenn Confusing (on purpose, IMO) Those 2 books based on poems. And another book, which titles is the main character misinterpretating the words in a poem/song.

    I think this a HUGE clue from the book. Misunderstanding/confusing poems/books. Forrest than leaves a Poem to the location to the Indulgence. I think this is a clue to….well IDK. But I have a feeling than this is something special.

    Anyone thought about this? Picked this up? Anybody have any thoughts?


    • Unfortunately I am not one who reads novels. I’m usually reading huge IBM manuals and looking at a computer screen all day.
      But huge thank you for my next research topic!
      Seriously thank you for sharing. I will post if i find something beyond what you have posted.
      Butterfly = Flutterby

    • Clues—yes. It could be very well be that what we “think” the poem is describing is not that at all. The location of the chest could be the complete opposite of where our minds are naturally leading us. In think you’re right—a major hint or clue.

        • my thoughts exactly… I think he uses some very well known novels here to make his point. I have found several other ‘errors’ in the book and I have a suspicion they may aid the searcher. Remember he has said he likes to misspell words to show their importance; in a similar way, maybe he has made ‘errors’ in the book to draw attention to them. I have a strong suspicion that the book provides detailed descriptions of locations hinted at within the poem, I think making these connections is the ‘key’.

        • Yeti: my question is why does Forrest denigrate a critically-acclaimed author (Pulitzer and Nobel winner), and then add insult to injury by making a point of saying he tossed the book in the trash? Who does that?! I have never thrown a book in the trash. Ever. If it wasn’t his cup of tea, why not donate it to a library or school? Worse, why even mention this in your memoire? It’s such a negative act and seems out of character for him.

          • “… add insult to injury by making a point of saying he tossed the book in the trash? Who does that?”

            … a nonconformist.

          • Here here. And that is why we are all here today. To break the mold and create positive chaos. Go Forrest. Bounce of the curbs and see what YOU can come up with. Imagine and see where it takes you. Then BOTG and see its beauty.

          • Just as he confused (on purpose) two different plots of famous books, he is denigrating the wrong author (again,intentionally), and is confusing (on purpose)which book he threw in the trash as a “hint” that the poem is saying one thing but may mean another.IMO of course.

          • Joe Sparrow, I pretty much agree.

            I think Forrest likes to be playful just like he is with words.

            But I do think the poem itself is straight forwards in the sense that he doesn’t mislead, he just plays with twists and turns of wording. Just like a good treasure map should have.
            Like in “National Treasure” and the “Iron Pen” bit.

          • Ken: there is non-conformity, and there is ignorant rudeness. Trashing a book is the latter. Forrest’s sensitivity to remarks made by bookstore employees also bothered me when I read TTOTC. I cannot be alone in my discomfort over these admissions by Forrest. It suggests he had (unnecessary) insecurities about his literary ignorance and took them out against young bookstore employees that he thought were “dissing” him.

          • Zap, If you are looking for answers from me, I am certain I have none, but I believe the answers to these questions are self-evident. Why did he throw it in the trash…he didn’t like it; who does that…apparently Mr. Fenn; Why not donate it…apparently the trash was closer; why mention it in HIS memoir…because its HIS memoir and he wanted to include it.

          • Zaphod

            Is the action of fenn here important or the overall point?

            When I read this chapter, I didn’t see it as you do. I saw a society of what should be, telling us is correct. The guy from the book store claiming the catcher in the rye was junk, while all the Harvard type tell us what s supposed to be good such as The bells and Gatsby.

            Fenn related to the Catcher in the rye as himself… not a stereotype of what should be. And this supposedly got fenn thinking about his own unauthorized autobiography. Whether the tossing in the trash was metaphorical or not… it does have meaning to how fenn may see things.

            Now, is there a hint in all that mess to try and decipher? Maybe.
            So should there be a helpful nudge in the chapter, I would say that it’s about finishing the story… imagination is more important than knowledge.

          • Hi Seeker. I guess I just thought it was an odd way to start off his memoir. (Don’t his ageist and sexist remarks in this chapter make you a little uncomfortable?) Sure, after the long life he’s lived and the sacrifices he’s made he’s earned the right to speak his mind. And I’m certainly with him as far as his opinion on some of the books that weren’t his cup of tea nor mine.

            I didn’t get the impression that the drugged-out bookstore clerk thought Catcher in the Rye was junk. I got the sense it was more a case of snobbery, as if to say, “Geez, you’re only NOW getting around to reading this book? Where have you been?” THAT sort of treatment is certainly worth getting ticked off about.

            As far as throwing books in the trash, perhaps it’s just a paperback vs. hardcover distinction with him — after all, he threw Catcher in the Rye in the trash, too (before taking it back out): a book that actually spoke to him. I’m told that Forrest has an extensive library, so he clearly values hardcovers enough to hold onto them. Who knows — maybe he has a first edition of Catcher on his bookshelf.

          • Zaphod,

            The store clerk analogy you stated might be exactly what he meant [ the clerk ]. But if I’m correct with my total recall he call, the clerk called the author of the rye an “idiot.”
            So what I see here is the attitude of not only the clerk but the people giggling in line to that comment… the colleges that give the other two books out as required readings…. while the Catcher in the Rye was a controversial book.
            Long ago when I looked up the info on that book, I read that it was band from some schools.

            So my point was; is this an attitude of society that fenn dislikes? Who tells us what is right and wrong, what is not appropriate, etc. And when fenn thought more about the Rye book, he removed it from the “garbage” meaning it meant more to him than what he was told about the other books being proper, great, required literature.

            If I’m not mistaken… it was the catalyst for fenn to write his own autobiography… and something about… finishing the story [meaning the character in the book] [at least that is what I got from that]

            When all is said and done… and if the chest is found in my life time… the one thing I would like very much to see is fenn’s Bio. I think it will answer many questions we have asked over the years.

            But is there a hint? I wish I knew… but i agree that there is something important here, maybe a message, a thought, an idea, and the reason his memoir basically started with ” important literature”

          • Hi Seeker: I see what happened for you. You misread what Fenn wrote:

            “When I handed him the book and my credit card he said in a loud voice, ‘Catcher in the Rye.’ That idiot! So now everyone in the whole dumb store started staring at me and not at him.”

            The clerk didn’t say “That idiot!”, Fenn did — in reference to the clerk.

          • Ok, thanks Zap…

            I’m sure you got that from the book so, it does seem fenn was thinking the clerk was an idiot for saying the title out loud.

            So now I have no clue of why it would have bothered fenn for the clerk to announce the title… Unless this is one of those aberrations that fenn talks about. I’ll be honest, I never read Catcher in the Rye but I might pick up a copy to see what the fuss is all about.

            But here I go again… if all the information is in the poem to locate the chest, is reading this book {Rye} important? Or is there another message here that fenn is attempting to relay that is helpful?

            Well, ya got me thinking now…

    • This is a interesting topic for me, mistakes, misunderstanding, confusing within the book, such as knowledge . As I came across them I asked myself, who gets everything right all the time? Believing that they may just be common mistakes but I am now thinking that there is something important to the purposeful mistakes. Might have to go through the book again and identify the purposeful mistakes.

      • The Count–

        Going through the book looking for intensional errors might be helpful in the long run but not sure.

          • Into the chase. Actually, I was joking. If you re-read my post you will note I intentionally spelled intentional wrong.

  55. I ONLY post to aid so here is another to chew on. Semicolon; in the poem is where you end your journey. It links all rest of poem that is by definition closely related only to return you to your earlier position. Why do that you may ask. It is because it is part of the importance of your entire journey.
    As always AIMO

    • ACE, just read your contest entry and you brought me to tears. You have given me a wonderful birthday gift today. Thank you from the bottom of my heart.

  56. Has ff ever made reference to an “X” as in marks the spot or any of the other stereotypical references to X and a treasure? The folks on this blog amaze me with your depth of knowledge and I can not seem to find any reliable info at this point that links a ff comment regarding an X.

    • LMN –

      As far as I know, FF has never made a reference to the letter “x” and I would be shocked if he ever does. The reason some folks think the X maybe important is – it’s the only letter of the alphabet not used in the poem.

    • LMN ,

      The only thing that comes to mind is somewhere, f said something to the effect of . . .”well I’m not going to put an X on the map for you” . (not an exact quote).

      Don’t remember where it was at tho. Someone here will know.

      • Oops – my bad – here is another time he posted about an X………..

        Posted on February 23, 2016 by Jenny Kile
        thrill of the chase treasure hunt

        Forrest Fenn I hope,

        I am new to the treasure search and there is so much contradictory information on the blogs I don’t know what to believe and what I shouldn’t. It must be just as confusing for you to read. Can you tell me anything that will help me? Thank you Mister Fenn. Adell

        PS, I am a city girl.

        I will try Adell.

        Read the blogs for entertainment, and the poem like you were going to put an X on a map. Beyond that I am not compelled to reiterate. Hunt prepared and go safely. Good luck. f

        • inthechaseto ,

          Good catch, I’d forgotten about that one.

          @ LMN : I believe the one I mentioned is in a video interview. I want to say it was Margie Goldsmith ?

          • Hey Rolltide… Do you mean the passage on the back of the map in TFTW… Where he says something like Benchmark Maps asked him to put an X on the map and he declined but will admit its there in Spirit…. Don’t have my book by me for exact quote…

          • TFTW:

            ‘We’ve recently been turned on to the map and atlas products of Benchmark Maps, and have had fun partnering with them to produce this treasure map. Their unique styles of cartography speak to our shared spirit of exploration. I declined their invitation to put an X on the map, but will admit that it is there in spirit.’

    • He said he could not remember the name of the French soldier from ‘My War For Me’, but does recall his last name had an ‘x’ in it…

      • Spallies ,

        No, the one I am thinking of was a verbal statement.

        Relying on memory only, I’m almost certain it was an interview by Margie Goldsmith.

        I found it in my notes last night but, I’d failed to make note of where I heard it.

        I’ll try to locate it.

      • Here is the quote:
        “Heck Shannon, you just widened one of my largest fault lines. In my haste to get back to the helicopter and leave that place, my effort was expended trying to remember the inscription, and I repeated it over and over. In that process the soldier’s name was not retained.

        All I remember is that his last name had an x in it. Is it strange that I would remember that? But there are no regrets because now he is my personal Unknown Soldier whose lack of identity stands as a metaphor for all men and women who fell in that ugly war and have now faded from our memory. f”

        from: http://mysteriouswritings.com/featured-question-and-weekly-words-x-in-a-name/

        • Roll and Yeti –

          Now we have 4 times he spoke about the X…..

          1. “I will try Adell. Read the blogs for entertainment, and the poem like you were going to put an X on a map. Beyond that I am not compelled to reiterate. Hunt prepared and go safely. Good luck. f”

          2. “‘We’ve recently been turned on to the map and atlas products of Benchmark Maps, and have had fun partnering with them to produce this treasure map. Their unique styles of cartography speak to our shared spirit of exploration. I declined their invitation to put an X on the map, but will admit that it is there in spirit.’”

          3. “The map shows the area in which the treasure is hidden,” says Fenn with a mischievous grin, “But there’s not X on it.”

          4. “Heck Shannon, you just widened one of my largest fault lines. In my haste to get back to the helicopter and leave that place, my effort was expended trying to remember the inscription, and I repeated it over and over. In that process the soldier’s name was not retained.
          All I remember is that his last name had an x in it. Is it strange that I would remember that? But there are no regrets because now he is my personal Unknown Soldier whose lack of identity stands as a metaphor for all men and women who fell in that ugly war and have now faded from our memory. f”

          Can anyone add to this list ?

          • You folks are incredible! Thank you very much! If only our public servants knew the US Constitution like you know your ff trivia – this would be a better nation.

          • inthechaseto ,

            Looks like that’s all we’re getting for now.

            So, let’s see what we’ve got.

            1) “. . . put an x on a map.” Okay, that would look like this :


            = xmap

            2) Same as #1, “x on the map” = xmap.

            3) “. . . x on it.” =


            =xit (exit)

            4) “. . . x in it.”

            ixt (too technical for a redneck from TX)

            itx (same as above-too tech.)

            xit (exit)

            Now, google “xmap treasure hunt”

            Mean anything? Who knows?

            Go have some fun with the poem now . . .

          • Good Job Roll –

            I like it…………exit. Now where would that be……….oh, way out on the edge – where all the aberrations are hanging out. We are talking about A map – not necessarily his map. He never said to use his map.

            Now, if you want to use the map in TFTW – there is an X in it and its in the name MEXICO. XI being”in the middle”. I don’t know if there are other x’s on his map – I have not looked.

            It’s my opinion that we – would have to place the X on the map.

    • Read this on Facebook recently. Thought it might fit here:

      “Dear Algebra, Please stop asking us to find your X. She’s never coming back, and don’t ask Y.”

      • Jeremy –

        Did FF actually say that – was it signed by him? It’s funny.
        Which facebook page?

        • It’s not a Fenn quote, sorry if I gave that impression. Just something I read that I thought was funny and might fit the X conversation.

      • inthechaseto ,

        I think you might like this one too . . .

        “Put in below the home of Brown”

        The home of Brown, would be Brown’s home so, the word that begs attention here, is home.

        Put “in” below home =


        =home in

        One definition of “home in”, is “knuckle down”.

        How much would it surprise you to know that is a term used in marble games?

        If one is “knuckled down” then he is in the shooting position. The term is mostly associated with the start, or the beginning, of the game.

        “Put in” also means to launch, or “start”.

        You gotta know where to start . . .

        • Kid #1 : ” Hey, you wanna shoot a game?”

          Kid #2 : ” Knuckle down !”
          ( You’re on, let’s do it )

          And, if you wanna watch Skippy zap flies, you gotta “nickel up” first . . .

        • Roll –

          Bingo ! Oh no – that was marbles right? You sir are right on – Oh no, that was left – right?. You’ve got to know where to start to play marbles. There are lots of marble games – but you’ll know the right one when you find it.

          • You’re funny this morning, inthechaseto. Love it. You got me curious with this one and looked up marble games and found a list. Now I’m trying to figure out which you speak.

          • This part of the solve was not my find – and I made a promise not to give it away –
            and I won’t. He tells you how to find it. Look to the round things.

          • inthechaseto ,

            I’m just a redneck from Bama. We played marbles in school at every recess and every lunch break. Every kid worth his salt carried a sock full of marbles to school every day.
            I played marbles all the way up until I was 13-14 years old. But then, other interests came along.

            But, “Those things came later when girls started making trouble”.

            If you roll a log over in the woods, does that make you a “log-roller” ?

            And, most marble games are played inside of a circle.

          • Roll –

            I got a marble game for Xmas once – and it was in the shape of a star. We had a lot of fun with that. Don’t go lookin for a star on this one. The shape won’t help you find it – but a good sense of humor might.

            I hope you held onto all those old marbles – they are pretty pricey now.

          • BTW – there are two different games to be played …..Can’t ya just see all the newbies ….saying this is too hard for me – I’m out.

  57. Zaphod—I think the problem is you are not understanding Forrest’s sense of humor. Recently I was reading a story Forrest wrote about a fishing trip with an old friend.

    He says in this article “we couldn’t get the dumb fire started”. Most likely Forrest is dropping a hint when he says “everyone in the whole dumb store…” But you can be sure Forrest was being humorous when he mentions the book store event. Read more of his “scrapbook” writing scans you’ll see I’m right. ☺

    • inthechaseto ,

      Yep, still have 3-400 of them. They slumber in a couple of old cigar boxes in a place of honor high up on a top shelf.

        • ROLL – One more thing………….There is an acrostic in the first line of the poem – which is taw.

          • inthechaseto ,

            Well . . .how do you like them grunions . . .

            I might have to rethink my opinion on acrostics, acronyms, etc.

            I’ve been flying by the seat of my pants and haven’t employed any of those things.

          • RT

            Just my opinion, but I would continue to stay away from the acrostics, anagrams, etc. were I you.

            Just my opinion, but I do not think that they are needed.


          • Roll – I like them grunions just fine. I really don’t put much stock in anagrams or acrostics – but they just are a fun break for me.

            I thought it was kinda unusual picking “indulgence” as the name of the TC – so I played around with that and found

            Indulgence = ending clue

            discover indulgence = dig circles end

          • JDA ,

            Wild horses couldn’t drag me away from my solve.
            But, I did find the “taw” very interesting.

            I do tend to believe there are more ways than one to arrive at a correct solve, as I have taken mine and worked it from three different angles and each one leads me to the same final spot.

            I’ve just not worked it from the angle of acrostics, anagrams, etc.
            I may try that, just for fun, to see if it still lines up without force-fitting anything.

            If it does, great. If it does not, I’m sticking with what I’ve got.

          • inthechaseto ,

            I like that . . .” indulgence = ending clue “.

            Until she’s found, there aren’t too many things that I will dismiss outright.

            For all I know, we might need to know how many licks it takes to get to the center of a tootsie-roll lollipop . . .

          • Roll –

            Playing for keeps is the only way to find it – I think one must be driven or half crazy.

            Lollipops – didn’t the government do a study on that……… 🙂

            I like Lollipops and roses…………wild red ones.

    • At the risk of being stoned, I’ll ask a question.

      Can anyone point me to where f said something like “. . . although, a metal detector might help once you are there . . .” ?

      For some reason, my search-function on this site doesn’t work.

      • I recall it being in a video or audio, possibly a book signing Q&A setting RT. If I recall correctly…
        My suggestion would be look on Toby’s blog a Gypsy Kiss. [ bottom of this page is the link ]

          • Don’t call me sir… I worked for a living.
            Hope my suggestion leads you to what you’re looking for. If ya do find it… would you post it? I’m kinda curious to exactly what was said again. Thanks

      • Hello ROLL TIDE,

        Here is a short video excerpt where he says:

        “a metal detector will help if your in exactly the right spot”


        I am trying to find the full version of this interview, if you find it could you post it.

        I get so confused though because he also supposedly said in an interview with Tony Doukopil “the chest is ‘exposed’ to rain and snow, and could be scorched in a forest fire”. That interview is here:


        • JCM ,

          AWESOME ! Thank you so much.

          He said ” WILL help you . . .”
          I’d thought he’d said “might” help you.

        • But note the qualifier: “A metal detector will help you if you’re in exactly the right spot.” It suggests it would be useless to you if you aren’t. But if you’re in exactly the right spot, why would you need a metal detector?

          • Zap;

            If you are in a field 100′ X 100′, but not very near where the metal detector would pick up the “box”, having the metal detector would be useless to you. Once you “comb” the field, say in a grid pattern, you will eventually get close enough to set off the detector, and THEN it will be useful to you – make sense?


          • Hi JDA — that’s certainly true. But 100′ x 100′ doesn’t sound very “precise” to me. TTOTC says, “… nine clues that if followed precisely, will lead to the end of my rainbow and the treasure.” I think most people interpret this to mean that the nine clues will put them within spitting distance of the chest.

            Clearly the searchers who have come to within 200 feet of the treasure did not know they were that close, otherwise they could have performed a thorough grid search and found the treasure in a matter of a couple hours.

            Didn’t Forrest also write something to the effect that if you were within 12 feet of the chest you couldn’t miss it? I’m sure someone has that quote stored away somewhere and can post it.

          • Zap;

            I used 100′ X 100′ only as an example. In my case, I feel that the TC in is water…let’s call it a stream leading into a pond. The pond is about 10′ X 60′ – Once on site, I will probably be able to narrow that down considerably, but the metal detector will put me “right on it”.

            Even if I am close, by finding the “Tarry Scant”,(Which will require BOTG) the metal detector will tell me precisely where it is. JDA

          • Zap ,

            ” But if you’re in exactly the right spot, why would you need a metal detector?”

            If one is in exactly the right spot, but operating under the premise that it is not buried, I can see them standing right on top of it, scratching their head, wondering what they missed.

            “Look quickly down” would take on a whole new meaning, if they are entertaining the possibility of it being buried or somehow “covered”.

          • zap-
            I don’t think that’s a mystery…
            I think it is another case of Forrest providing information no one asked about. I think he does that often..
            But if you look closely at his words I think you’ll find that what he said is exactly true…for instance-

            My metal detector will find a nickel if it’s buried 3 inches under the ground or if it’s sitting on top of the ground. But I must be in exactly the right spot. My metal detector won’t find a nickel if it’s not directly over the nickel…or darn close to right over it.
            And if my nickel is hidden in the grass, where I may not see it, still exposed to wind and rain and snow, my MD will still find it…but I still have to be directly over it…or in the case of Indulgence…I’d have to be in the right spot for the MD to detect it..buried or hidden..

            I think what you bring up is an interesting point though…
            How can the chest be hidden, yet still exposed to wind, rain, snow and fire?

          • Hi Dal! I see you’ve survived your Doll show visit in Colorado. 🙂 I think we’re in agreement that Forrest’s answer about the metal detector question was basically a non-answer because it only states the obvious. He never claims you NEED a metal detector to find the chest. Taken in conjunction with whatever his other statement was about the unlikelihood of someone failing to find the chest if they were within 12 feet or 15 feet or whatever the distance was, I view a metal detector as a non-required element.

            As for true burial, do people really envision Forrest taking a shovel with him? What if he passed some unexpected hikers — how would he explain the shovel? Sure, he could have put a folding shovel in his backpack on the first trip, but it’s that much more weight he has to carry (along with the flashlight, water, sandwich, bear spray, first aid kit, etc.) I think burial unnecessarily complicates matters when he could more easily (and with less risk) make use of local rocks to conceal the chest.

          • Not out of the woods yet Zap. You have no idea how many doll shows there are in the west this time of year…lol…

            I have been examining the case for around the Green River for the past couple days. While there I learned of an interesting possibility for WWWH that I had not considered previously. You may remember that I tried very hard to make a WWWH out of Lake Bonneville or Lake Missoula or the Great Salt Lake but nothing worked out for me…I just learned about a couple of new ancient, warm water lakes..Lake Uintah and Lake Gosiute…I am not convinced of the likelihood of either…just investigating…a new spark of interest that I will be able to finish researching in the next couple of days…
            Anyway…still out in the wood til end of this week…having fun…
            Today..I THINK I found a dino fossil washed out in an arroyo on BLM land in Lincoln County. This is good fossil hunting territory. I’ll know more when I get it home and can examine it closer…but it made my day…

          • Hi Dal,

            “Not out of the woods yet Zap. You have no idea how many doll shows there are in the west this time of year…lol…”

            In the dying words of Col. Kurtz in Apocalypse Now, “The horror. The horror.” I guess we all have our indulgences (though I’m sure you’d prefer the one with the capital I!)

            “I have been examining the case for around the Green River for the past couple days. While there I learned of an interesting possibility for WWWH that I had not considered previously. You may remember that I tried very hard to make a WWWH out of Lake Bonneville or Lake Missoula or the Great Salt Lake but nothing worked out for me…I just learned about a couple of new ancient, warm water lakes..Lake Uintah and Lake Gosiute…”

            I commend you for being able to maintain an open mind and consider such wide-ranging alternatives. That’s one side-benefit to the Chase: you will learn many new things that probably have no relevance to locating the chest, but your life is nevertheless enriched by the knowledge.

            “Today..I THINK I found a dino fossil washed out in an arroyo on BLM land in Lincoln County. This is good fossil hunting territory. I’ll know more when I get it home and can examine it closer…but it made my day…”

            As you say, you’re in the right area — how exciting to make such a find if that’s what it turns out to be!

  58. Pd I sent you a Happy Birthday and a poem. Not sure if it even went through. Oh and thanks for enjoying my entry.

    Life is like a kaleidoscope… Each spectrum is our own little space… During dark and cloudy times gives us time to reflect and think… But when the sun is out and our colors are about… Oh, what a beautiful place!

    • Thank you for the birthday wishes, ACE. Your words are inspirational and draws a beautiful image. When we’re all out in nature, look around and see what Mr. Fenn was talking about. Treasures surrounding the treasure chest.

  59. Afana I really enjoyed your entry into the contest. I really enjoyed your analogies.
    Alas I don’t think Forrest will ever find his ball of string, even if he had the superhero Superman looking for it.

  60. I have a question about ff saying he walked several miles from the parking spot or was it several miles around trip? Does anyone recall this?
    Thanks, Casey

  61. musings….

    If the TC is the BLAZE then look directly under it (quickly down) for the riches old.

    Walking up the repose grade on an animal trail will likely include a SWITCH BACK or two requiring some effort, courage, and sure-footedness depending on the steepness of the hillside.

    Google Earth may not be the highest resolution aerial pic available which you can access to perhaps see the TC. Even if Google Earth increases resolution at some heights it may not increase the resolution of the lowest view.

  62. Why is ‘down’ always interpreted as below the blaze?. ‘Down’ could be south, or could be determined by the slope of the ground your standing on.

    A quick look might tell you where not to go.

    • Why does ‘down’ need to be any particular direction?

      IF you said, look down the barrel of a rifle, is that telling me the exact ‘direction’ or just lining up sights. [ front to back ]
      So far, all we have is guessing what the blaze might be… yet why can’t it be something that is need to be used, and not just found.

      What is it we are told to gaze at? IF tarry meaning linger, and scant a small amount, does it seem we need to take little time and do something? and/or do it in a quick amount of time allowed?
      I agree OS2… down means more than just below… or even south.

      • I would totally agree. I don’t think “down” has to refer to a direction at all. By the way, I like your rifle analogy.

        • Joe, This Q&A always has me thinking…

          “Mr. Fenn,
          Which direction does the Blaze face? North, South, East or West? Curious. Foxy”

          “I didn’t take a radial off of the blaze Foxy. I’m thinking it may not be any of those directions. f”

          Radial direction; made in the direction of a radius; going from the center outward or from the circumference inward along a radius: a radial cut.

          So I think of this as being a star fish style shape… all the arms point inwards type thinking to a central core, if you will. Well, That’s just one vision anyways. Another words… ‘nail’ down the first clue, being the center / central point.

          A scant of an area? Why does fenn feel like he’s talking in circles? [ referring to another Q&A ]

          • My blaze points NNE – just slightly off of north in other words – so it points to neither N, S, E, or W – , just as Forrest indicated. Who knows? Hope to find out Oct 2nd.


  63. FREE BEAR SPRAY! ! !
    Cody, WY
    WY Fish and Game handing out FREE bear spray again today!

    If anyone is in the area, save some money and get yours today!

    ** Always remember to make sure you spray down wind. 🙂

    • What a great program! My son purchased one in West Yellowstone at a cost of what it cost the company. High concentration.

      Downwind? If the bear is charging, I don’t think I’m going to worry which way the wind is blowing. 🙂

      • Oh pdenver
        I believe you will want to be up wind or when you spray the bear you will also spray yourself to a point where you won’t see and the burning well lets just say you won’t be running away from the bear because you will have temp. blinded yourself. Be safe

  64. OMG! Guys, I just realized the picture on front of TFTW is a map. A more detailed map than the one inside. WOW! This is the 5th map I’ve found that all point to the same place. It’s all in how you look at the map. I am slow but I guess I would rather explain it as…you have to think, not just look with your eyes. Look at each element in the picture and let your brain make the connections. Just go with it. If you’ve read the poem over and over and TTOTC over and over, your brain has all the information it needs. But be careful not to look with a location already in your mind. Let your brain lead you. Maybe even take a break and just follow your thoughts. You know I’m right. Just look at the border of the picture. It’s styled like an old treasure map.

  65. Ramona—- just curious—what state do you think the treasure is in? You don’t have to be detailed—just which state. Of course, you don’t have to answer if you don’t want to. 🙂

    • The last best place, Montana. If I were going to hide a treasure, I would hide it in the last best place. I mean what’s the options, the last worst place? That doesn’t make sense. But not in Yellowstone, too obvious.

      • Good choice for a state. I’m in a state of confusion all the time since I began reading the poem. lol

  66. OMG been working on what I take to be the first “clue” for months….am I brain fried or does anyone else believe that he used to word “halt” because the same warm waters start up again at a different location? If not, why not use the word “stop” because it seems to rhyme slightly better with “walk”. Stop seems to imply stopping infinitely, whereas halt can mean either stopping infinitely or pausing and starting up again. Maybe I’m looking way too much into this and F just liked the sound of it better for prose reasons…

    Also, in the dressage horse world a halt is a common term, to go along with blaze.

    Second dilemma, how come there are seekers (probably a lot) that have been within 200 feet of the treasure but haven’t found it? That leads me to believe the blaze is at least 200 feet from the animal trail, creek, whatever you are using as a guide, in the distance, and that the blaze is not super noticeable. There are a lot of savvy seekers who would have surely noticed the blaze if it were obvious. Perhaps the blaze is a perspective thing where you need to be in the right spot looking in just the right direction at the right time in order to see. If you are walking and looking that makes it more tricky.

    In addition, when asked what direction the blaze faces, F answered kinda ambiguously as usual. If the blaze is on the ground it would face upwards which isn’t really a direction?

    Lastly, I keep getting 10 clues…I wonder if one clue is referred to twice. Like as in the blaze is also the water high as it’s a waterfall coming down the face of a mountain? Maybe water high is just upstream as technically it is higher. So many ways to interpret the words in the poem to keep it fun.

    In any case, once the treasure is found it would be fun to reflect back and see which clues in the stories in the TOTC book refer to the location and how many seekers and who else was even in the ballpark. How fun! The treasure keeps on giving! Woo hoo!!!!!

    • TSAL ,

      I’m always very cautious with what I am willing to share as far as my research is concerned. So, I will word this very carefully.

      “halt” and “walk”. THINK !

      What is the most common place you will see both of those words represented?

      On a street corner. The Man and The Hand.

      Look for the aberrations.

        • Hear me all ,

          Without boring you with details, descriptions, and definitions, I believe that the Chase, the poem, and the treasure all convey “The highest degree of development of an art or technique at a particular time”.

          In other words, State of the Art .

      • To be helpful here thrillseeker—you may want to explore all possibilities for the word “halt”:

        Definition of halt
        intransitive verb
        : to walk or proceed lamely : limp
        : to stand in perplexity or doubt between alternate courses : waver
        : to display weakness or imperfection : falter

        • Hear me all ,

          It was just a clever way to say NM. That is where f got into the art business.

          Eric Sloane was an artist. According to TTOTC, he died while standing on a street corner, waiting for the light to change.

          Halt and walk.

          • Roll – My solve begins at a stoplight. One can’t argue the fact that you halt. I also have warm waters at this junctiion yet no visible water. It’s a clever clue for sure.

          • Hear me all ,

            Interesting that your solve begins at a stoplight and you have warm waters there, but no visible water.

            I think I’m reading you loud and clear but, I won’t discuss it any further unless you are okay with it.

        • Pieces ,

          I believe every word is exactly where f wanted it to be.
          The poem is self-contained. All of the words are positioned precisely so as to support all of the other words.

          f chose his words very carefully, making certain that those words say exactly what he wishes the poem to convey.

          To rearrange the placement of the words would be messing with the poem, thereby obscuring the message he has so cleverly hidden therein.

          The poem is a reflection of actual physical places. To move any of the words from their position would be unwise.

          ” You will ignore the poem at your own peril. f ”

          ( ignore = edit )

          • RT,
            You said… the massage so cleverly hidden…
            I bring this up to ask if you think there is a message?

            This was the first question I asked fenn… ending in with the answer the poem is straightforwards.

  67. I’ve heard the clues are in order, but I’m starting to wonder if maybe they are literally “in order” yet maybe the ‘rest’ of the poem is not :)…how many times are we supposed to “read” the poem again? Gonna be a long night here….think I might be on a roll….

    read (v.)
    Old English rædan (West Saxon), redan (Anglian) “to advise, counsel, persuade; discuss, deliberate; rule, guide; arrange, equip; forebode; read, explain; learn by reading; put in order”

    • Seeker ,

      When I used the word message, I hesitated and almost changed it to “directions”. But, after careful consideration I chose to go ahead and use the word “message” simply because it covers all of the following :

      depicted object(s)
      word meaning

      Take your pick.

      And yes, the poem is definitely straightforward.

      • RT,
        My question to fenn was [ a while back, so I’ll just hit the high points ] other than getting folks off their butts, is there as subtle message trying to be conveyed… Answered the poem is straight forward.

        During this time, my one theory act upon the journey of “I” or the ancients’ travels to the new world from the old ~ hence ~ riches new and old. As well as the time period between the Clovis and Folsom.
        So I was wondering if this was considered a subtle message of the poem. Or something more than simply fenn placing locations to be stomped out. To be honest, I still think the journey theory is valid, but it did killed my thoughts of WWH as the glacial period… seeing there are many wwwh and nearly all are N of SF.

        So you stated: “And yes, the poem is definitely straightforward.” Which leads to the question, what is it about the poem that is straightforwards? And are we [ the majority ] reading the poem incorrectly to fenn’s meaning straightforwards?

        So how do you see the poem as such?
        Stomping out every clues as a location?
        Descriptions of place to be know and not needed to be traveled by foot [ for most anyways ] ?
        A theme of sorts? [ one theory I have involves a grave / graveyard of sorts.] [ I also can see the poem as a single location, with the clues involved, with what is at that location and no other way to finalize the poem without being at this point ].

        Many posting of solve read as a type of theme, cancer related, war related, family related, movies, paintings, aeronautics, L&C code related, even mapping out a picture of fenn’s little dog, as well as many other thoughts, yet the all seem to have one thing in common, physical travel of the searcher to 9 different point / locations [ clues ] …
        So I’m always curious to how other see the poem. Are you willing to elaborate on your list of words and how some related to what the poem is overall? Heck, we can do it in PM if you wish, I’m just curious.

        • Seeker ,

          So, how do I see the poem as such . . .?

          “Descriptions of places to be known and not needed to be travelled by foot” would seem to be the easiest answer for me to give but, that wouldn’t be entirely correct because quite a bit of my understanding has come from putting botg six times already.

          Each time, after searching my location and coming up empty-handed, I use the rest of my allotted time to explore the area. So, each trip brings me home with more information about the area than what I previously had.

          But, all of that exploring and scouting is done in an attempt to locate the correct blaze. NONE of the exploring is done to locate any of the other clues. I am confident of those and don’t need to stomp them out every time.

          I am confident that all of the clues, except for the blaze, can be found setting at home.

          So, I guess my answer would be, it takes both approaches that you mentioned.

          (making this short so it doesn’t go to Mars or somewhere)

          • Seeker ,

            I don’t count clues or any of that, and from what I’ve seen I think I might safely say that a large number of people think the first clue is in stanza one.

            To me, stanza one gives me the state while also giving me somewhat of an understanding on how to read the poem.

            Stanza two tells me what to start looking for in that state so, that’s where I’ll begin.

            Once I located what I think is wwwh, hoB followed, after some very heavy thinking and research, and locating the rest of the descriptions in the poem came after doing more moderate research and thinking.

            But all of it was like 1-2-3-4 . . .This goes here, that comes next, here’s the next one,etc.

            There were no switchbacks or tricks involved.

            To me that is straightforward.

          • So, Roll Tide, I’m guessing you’ve seized on the same “riches new and old” line that other New Mexico searchers point to as their clue that the treasure is in that state. So at least you’ve got company on that score.

          • Thanks RT,

            And I’ll add to what Zap just posted…

            Should the riches new and old refer to NM as a state, then this should be considered the first clue… so what is it we don’t dwell upon for this clue? Or ignore this clue as fenn has stated?
            There is something that has always bugged me about the first clue simply being a state… that seems relatively easy, and let’s face it…only a one in four chance of being wrong.

            How many folks search in NM? Seems the odds would be very good if this one important, significant clue was simply a states name.

            We have My for the treasure state, WY for my is it I must go… which if possible true kinda kicks the clues order out of whack.

            A state as a clue just doesn’t sit right with me…. not when we have been told it a must need clue to nail down.

          • Seeker –

            You said……. not when we have been told it a must need clue to nail down.

            I think you meant the state – right? We’ve been told that……?

          • RT;

            I have to disagree that the words from stanza #1 – “riches new and old” = NM.Or the line, “And with my treasures bold” could refer to Montana, the Treasure State, but I personally do not believe this either.

            As I have stated a couple of times, there is a very obscure definition of “the wood” from stanza #6 that points to a geographical area in Wyoming. Substitute this geographical area for “In there” of stanza #1, and this leads you directly to wwwh in stanza #2.

            To me, “…and with my treasures bold = the chest and its contents. “I can keep my secret where” = Forrest can keeps its location a secret. and
            “And hint of riches new and old” = Forrest can talk about the TC and its contents. All very straight forward.

            Well, there went one of my last two functioning brain cells – JDA

          • Hi Seeker,

            “There is something that has always bugged me about the first clue simply being a state… that seems relatively easy, and let’s face it…only a one in four chance of being wrong.”

            You are right to be bothered by this assumption — because that’s not what Forrest baked into the first stanza. It’s nothing anywhere near that blatant; it is a discriminator precisely because it isn’t obvious, and is the reason very few people have the right WWWH.

          • Into,

            No, not a state. Whatever the first clues refers to I have a hard time believing it is simply a state or name of a state. Reasoning being, if all the first clue is a stated to locate WWWH, why is this first clue so “important”, that we have “ignored” it, we don’t “dwell” on it enough and many other statements about the importance of the first clue.

            Apparently when those who were at the correct first clue [ first two clues ] didn’t understand they were… I can’t fathom why? that is, if all the first clue is a name of the state the chest lays in wait.

            Funny thing is… some of the words that fenn used in the after the fact comment, like; dwell for one, which mean “home” or habitation…

            Is it likely that “put in” below home of Brown means the sentence prior, is below hoB? The “put in” used as an indicator to tell us where WWH, and what we might really need to find is Home of Brown to be the first clue to locate wwwh?

            It is interesting that stanza 2 is two different sentences and not one. So are we reading the poem out of order simply because we can only see it as descending order?

  68. Has anyone taken the time to find the hidden sentence within each sentence?
    Go to the first line, start at the first letter, skip some letters, don’t worry about spaces, choose some letters, all in order. You will find there is a hidden sentence within every single line of the poem.
    This will also give you an understanding of why some words appear out of order.

    • “Has anyone taken the time to find the hidden sentence within each sentence?”

      Hidden within the aboive sentence is the following: “as one he hid ten in each ten”.

      That is simply profound.

    • In order to do something like that, one must know how many letters to skip. You can not just skip random letters and form sentences unless FF says so somewhere. imo.

    • Seeker & Zap ,

      “New”Mexico & “Old” Mexico never played a part in my solve.

      However, “As I have gone alone in there”, does. I gave that one some serious thought. Forrest set out to New Mexico with his immediate family, journeying into the unknown. There would be no family or any type of security to welcome him upon his arrival.

      Surely both of you have read a few westerns or historical novels that included “We set out alone, blah blah blah . . .” , or, “I set out alone, with no one but my wife and the boy, blah blah blah . . .”
      ( with my treasures . . . )

      And, I did it Boldly.

      I can keep my secret where . . . where I was headed when I set out alone.

      As I have stated before, I believe the poem is a reflection, and I believe there is a duality to a lot of it.

      Hint of riches new and old . . .

      Well, we have Folsom Man and we also have the only T-Rex footprint ever found in the entire world , right there in-state. Along with all the “newer” treasures, such as San Lazaro. Fenn is a fellow who “treasures” these types of things.

      Those who “solved” the first clue but didn’t know it, were most likely searching in New Mexico, but they were still searching for the “first” clue, having no idea they had solved the first clue simply by searching in NM.

      • RT: The problem with your idea is that it requires significant information not found in the poem. So you’re welcome to go down that path, but you do so choosing to believe that Forrest’s statement that “All of the information you need to find the treasure is in the poem” is false.

        • Zap ,

          Using the same reasoning and logic, can you show me where at in the poem that it conclusively points to any of the other three states?

          I ain’t buying into “Why” = Wyoming.

          Also, what was the question about having nothing but the poem in 500 years, and what was his answer?

          • This might be a stretch here, but in the story ‘In Love With Yellowstone’ Mr. Fenn’s father traded his ’36 Chevy for a ’41 Plymouth. Just curious, what is the latitude of Colorado’s Southern and Northern borders? Also, since there are so many years referred to in the book, I wonder how many others are abbreviated by omitting the first two digits? How straight is the road between Shoshoni and Casper, and are there any straight roads in the Rockies? I wonder if 90 is important, as in 90 feet of water, or the distance between Mr. Fenn’s current home and the Colorado border? Two trips, what is 90 miles from there? I wonder if there is a college somewhere about 50 miles from a national park with the inscription “He who teaches a child labors with God in his workshop” on one of the buildings? Finally, I wonder if the book is important.

        • RT asked, “Can you show me where at in the poem that it conclusively points to any of the other three states?” Sure I could, but then you would have the answer to the first clue and be well on your way to figuring out the correct WWWH. I have enough competition as it is, and apparently some of them figured it out more than a year ago.

          • Zap, if that was true… having the correct state known of to find the correct wwwh, that would be fantastic. However, that doesn’t seem to make sense of the searchers being at the correct first two clues and not knowing the significance of where they were.

            Fenn has told us the first clue’s importance [without it we have notta ], has told us we should have some kind of certainty beforehand, told us the clues get easier as we go along etc.

            I mean, how hard would it be, to be in the ‘correct’ state with the ‘correct’ wwh, and the ‘correct location’ of the rest of the clues and not know they had the correct clues [first two clues ] and location?
            [ at least as far as fenn statements are concerned ]

            Something is not right in Correctville.

          • Zap ,

            I don’t have the chest, therefore, I don’t know if any part of my solve is correct.
            You don’t have the chest, therefore, You don’t know that any part of my solve is Incorrect. Fair enough ?

            Seeker said “There is something that has always bugged me about the first clue simply being a state . . .”

            You said “You are right to be bothered about this assumption — because that’s not what Forrest baked into the first stanza.”

            I then asked “Can you show me where at in the poem that it conclusively points to any of the other three states?”

            You said “Sure I could, but then you would have the answer to the first clue and be well on your way to figuring out the correct WWWH.”

            I’m confused at this point, unless you are saying that the poem gives the answer to what state, somewhere after(?) the first clue? That would seem to me to be somewhat odd.

            “The correct WWWH”. Did you mean to imply that you know the “correct” wwwh?
            If not, then how do you know I, or anyone else doesn’t have the correct wwwh?

            If you don’t have the chest, how do you know I am in the wrong state?

            “. . .all the information you need is in the poem . . .”

            Do you use anything at all, other than the poem, to formulate your solve? Did you read TTOTC?
            If so, why?

            And, you didn’t answer my last question about 500 years and nothing but the poem, and what f’s answer was.

          • Hi Seeker,

            “Zap, if that was true… having the correct state known of to find the correct wwwh, that would be fantastic.”

            RT was asking me to point out where in the poem that it conclusively points to any of the other three states. What if what I would point to is far more specific than a state? That’s the problem; if the clue just pointed out the state, I’d just say it. (Everyone already knows I will never search a state other than Montana.) But the clue is much, much more specific than that. So you can understand why I won’t point it out.

          • RT: lots of questions in your post, so I will try to answer them in-line.

            “Zap , I don’t have the chest, therefore, I don’t know if any part of my solve is correct. You don’t have the chest, therefore, You don’t know that any part of my solve is Incorrect. Fair enough ?”

            If I wasn’t utterly certain that I have the correct starting point, I would concede your point. But I’ll play along. Skipping ahead a bit since what you ask next (regarding the right state) is addressed in my message above, you write:

            “‘The correct WWWH’. Did you mean to imply that you know the “correct” wwwh?”

            Yes, I’m very confident I do. So that being the case, if someone else’s WWWH isn’t even in the correct state, I could safely conclude they had the wrong one.

            “If you don’t have the chest, how do you know I am in the wrong state?”

            Knowing the correct starting point does not imply that you know where the chest lies. But not knowing where the chest is does not mean you can’t be utterly confident that you have the right starting location. That confidence will not come when you have ONLY the starting location; it comes after you solve the third clue and beyond.

            “ ‘. . .all the information you need is in the poem . . . ‘ Do you use anything at all, other than the poem, to formulate your solve?
            Did you read TTOTC? If so, why?”

            The solutions to all the clues so far come exclusively from the poem and a sufficiently detailed map. So far I have found nothing in TTOTC that would tell you WWWH. (I’ve read it cover-to-cover at least a dozen times.) What I ~have~ found are subtle hints that validate later clues. Those hints are meaningless to someone who hasn’t solved the associated clues, which I think you’ll agree is consistent with what Forrest has said: that there are subtle hints sprinkled in the stories, but they are not deliberately placed to help the searcher.

            “And, you didn’t answer my last question about 500 years and nothing but the poem, and what f’s answer was.”

            I know what he said. If you have only the poem, but none of the other clues — no color map from TFTW, no book, no 4-state restriction, no “in the mountains north of Santa Fe”, no altitude ranges, and no date when the poem was published — I think it would be pretty hopeless. Names on maps will change, and if the treasure could conceivably be hidden anywhere in the world, then WWWH may no longer be a unique location.

          • Zap,
            You said in part; “What I ~have~ found are subtle hints that validate later clues. Those hints are meaningless to someone who hasn’t solved the associated clues, which I think you’ll agree is consistent with what Forrest has said: that there are subtle hints sprinkled in the stories, but they are not deliberately placed to help the searcher.”

            If the “hints” as we have been told, to help with the clues, is “later validation” for a clue, how does that help with the clues?

            “There are hints in my book that will help you with the clues, but a clue will point you toward the treasure chest and a hint will just help you with the clues, if you can understand that.”

            I can see what you mean by validation of a clue, but is that all a hint does? Unless I’m reading fenn’s comment wrong… it seems a hint would help prior to knowing a clue answer or what it refers to… the whole point of a hint to understand a clue better.

            LOL… I really hate the hint to a clue thing. I have no clue at all what either really mean or are.

        • Ok, so I have been struggling with whether or not to post this as some of this info I feel may be sharing too much, but I am interested in the discussion it might create, so… I see quite a few individuals restating the quote from Mr. Fenn that all of the information you need to find the chest is in the poem, but they omit the part about ‘if you know where to start’. He has said anyone trying to solve the poem should begin by reading his book, then the poem, then read the poem again. So he tells us to begin by reading his book. In the book, he also tells us that he has sprinkled clues in the stories within the book. So, while I am uncertain of anything, my first question to those who are sure all we need is the poem is, why would we want to ignore those clues? That brings me to what I think are the nine clues. Poems are designed to be understood on multiple levels, and I believe this poem is no different. The poem contains three clues, three levels deep. The second stanza is the first clue, the entire stanza is only one clue, but can be interpreted three different ways. The same holds true for the third and fourth stanzas. The rest of the poem provides context for these clues. The first time through each of these three clues are solved by stories within the book. The second time through allows you to place these locations on a map, and the third time through allows you to find a more specific location if you are on site. Before anyone just shoots me down right away, I challenge you to attempt to read the poem in this way, use some imagination and look at the big picture; remember there are no shortcuts, then feel free to fire away…

          • Yeti ,

            You won’t get fired at from my direction. I agree with some of what you said.

            But, I’d be careful about offering free shots around here, there’s no shortage of those who will try their best to pepper your backside.

            Funny thing is, everyone of ’em is still right here looking for answers.

          • Yeti, you could be correct; some think there are many more than three layers.

            Here’s the quote from Fenn:

            Dear Mr. Fenn,
            We are a group of avid elderly bridge players in San Diego who after reading your book hope to find your treasure. We are not into poetry as much as the memoir. We realize the clues are in the poem, but were wondering if there isn’t at least one clue in each chapter.
            Thank you for a great book

            All of the information you need to find the treasure is in the poem. The chapters in my book have very subtle hints but are not deliberately placed to aid the seeker. Good luck in the search. f


          • Yeti,

            I’m not gonna shoot ya down, as I can see the poem as ‘levels’ as you stated. and agree that is how a poem works [most of the time]
            But… I will refer you to the radio interview in the media section [ Ohio, I think ] Listen to that around the 4 minute mark where fenn is ask directly about the book. I find it his answer interesting and they way he puts it, and wonder what you think.

            Yes we have been told the book will help. Told the book has subtle hints and even in the book, referred to as clues. Many time in many ways fenn has commented on the book and hint… even saying they [ hints in the book ] were not deliberately placed to aid a searcher. Then we have all those “clues” told on the today show and later fenn stating they are useless clues. [useless clue debate]
            So I’m perplexed to what is and is not a true clue / hint when it is outside the poem. I will say this… imo… If a “clue” is needed from outside the poem, then the comment in a Q&A all the information is in the poem, would be a false statement. Unless the poem somehow tells us to refer to the book.

            But I’m more curious on your ‘levels’ …
            When I read the poem I can see it as different readings to mean different things… such as death / ceremony, a journey of another, a description of places that work as a whole, and directional as well.
            What is it by ‘levels’ or some have called layers, do you refer to?

          • Seeker, If I have the right interview, he states that everything you need is in the poem (which I agree with), but the book will help you decipher that information (which I think is key). My take is this: If you know where to start, and can completely understand each clue, then the poem is all you need. I for one do not fall into that category, so I will need to use the book to help decipher the information contained in the poem.

          • Seeker, I would also like to add everything that has led me to the location I am currently searching has come 100% from the poem. But, honestly, with the vagueness of these clues, throw a dart at a map of the Rockies and with some imagination you can make the location fit the poem. I have used the book to add some definition to the clues in the poem.

          • RT,
            The shot gun is always loaded… lol, but I think what you said; “Funny thing is, everyone of ’em is still right here looking for answers.” might be correct for some, however, I think more folks are looking for thought provoking ideas. Many have been at this a long time… we tend to get a little stale with ideas. I know I do.

          • Goofy, Roll, I think the key word here is deliberately. This could simply mean they are not in any specific order or a more direct answer to ‘each chapter’. Whichever way this is meant, it certainly does not negate the fact that he tells us there are clues in the book; my question is why ignore them? While I do believe everything we need is in the poem, I also believe the book provides the information necessary to retrieve this information from the poem. If only I had the chest, I could be sure… Didn’t Mr. Fenn also state that nothing he has said in any interview or additional comment was designed to bring the searcher closer to the treasure? Thank you for ‘shooting me down’, let’s see how many bullets this theory can dodge…

          • Seeker, I’m a little leery to spell out each of these levels, but in general, begin it where warm waters halt. Mr. Fenn states that this could refer to many places, most of which are in the Rockies North of Santa Fe, so how do we find the correct one? Layer one will identify which warm waters halt we are looking for, the corresponding location on a map would be layer two. Once all clues are solved in the first two layers, layer three would provide a more specific location; but as Mr. Fenn has said, in order to get past this point, you will have to be on site. But, as I said, this is only a general description, remember (at least in this theory) the first clue is not simply ‘warm waters halt’, but would include the rest of the second stanza, with the first providing context for that clue.

          • Yeti, the interview I’m referring to is;
            A Columbus, OH radio Station aired this interview with Forrest on December 3rd, 2015. [ found on the media page under important info ]

            Interviewer: …does somebody need to read your books to find the treasure or do all the clues exist within the poem?
            Fenn: They don’t need to read my book but they need to read my poem, the book will help them, but they can find the treasure if they can decipher the clues that are in the poem…

            So I was wondering your take on this particular interview?

        • Zap ,

          I’m posting here for obvious reasons.

          Directly above, you state “The problem with (my) idea is that it requires significant information not found in the poem.”

          And yet , below, you state “and a sufficiently detailed map”. Does the poem tell us to use a map?

          Then, you go on to list several “other clues” (not in the poem) that, if one does not have, you “think it would be pretty hopeless.”

          So, do you still feel that there is a “problem with (my) idea . . .”, or not?

          I applaud you for being so confident in your solve.

          But, I too, am totally confident in my solve, including what state I am searching in.

          I could never be so bold as to tell you that you don’t have the correct wwwh, or that you’re in the wrong state, or anything else related to your solve, because none of us can know that until the chest is found.

          There’s nothing wrong with being confident until we start telling other searchers that there is a problem with their solve simply because it doesn’t agree with ours.

          Other than that, I enjoy reading your take on things.

          Good luck.

          • Hi ROLL TIDE,

            “Directly above, you state ‘The problem with (my) idea is that it requires significant information not found in the poem.’ And yet , below, you state ‘and a sufficiently detailed map’. Does the poem tell us to use a map?”

            No, the poem doesn’t, but Forrest did. And I think it goes without saying that if you’re treasure hunting, you will need a map. You can’t navigate without one.

            “Then, you go on to list several “other clues” (not in the poem) that, if one does not have, you ‘think it would be pretty hopeless.'”

            We live at a time when we are privileged to have access to a lot of ancillary information, poem context, and even the author himself. So in that respect, while the book is not crucial to the solution today, it could be indispensable in 500 years because at least the book tells you that the treasure is somewhere in the mountains north of Santa Fe. With just the naked poem, the chest could conceivably be on any continent, and if the solution space is open up to the entire world, some clues may no longer refer to unique places.

            “So, do you still feel that there is a ‘problem with (my) idea . . .’, or not?”

            What I think is not particularly relevant. You have a solution that works for you, so who am I to dissuade you? If you think information found in the book is essential to your solve, then roll with it. But it must give you a little pause that Forrest does not believe you ~need~ the book in the here and the now.

          • Interesting discussion here and I am curious: What do you all make of the statement made by FF that is embedded in the following MW post from 2/4/2013? “the hidden treasure story in the book…” Does the poem qualify as a “hidden treasure story”? Was this a mis-speak? Or does the book itself contain a “hidden treasure story”?

            1Q) I am sure you are aware The Thrill of the Chase has captured many hearts and ambitions of those who have read your book. Are you happy with the way the search for your hidden treasure is going? Do you have any regrets; or more importantly, would you like to see anything different in the ways people are chasing the prize?

            1A) It was fortunate that two writers, Irene Rawlings and Margie Goldsmith, liked my book enough to review it in national publications. Those stories gave it ignition.

            The hidden treasure story in the book provided enough propulsion to keep it in the public view long enough for word of mouth traffic to broaden its desire across America and beyond. I am more than pleased with the way it has been accepted. What I didn’t expect was the number of people who immediately started searching maps and using Google Earth to locate their special spots. Many have read my book multiple times looking for additional clues, or even hints that might assist them in the hunt.

          • Sandy B –

            I have a feeling you already know the answer to your question….

            I had forgot he said – treasure in the book.,,,,,

            Let’s see – did he work on the poem 15 years or did he work on the poem and the book 15 years…………..I pick both.

    • C’mon Tim, what’s the point in saying something without a little back up to show your point? The first sentence as over 80 letters… that’s a lot of words that can come out of this process.

      • I’m not sure if I’m going with Tim’s thoughts, but I tried a couple just for fun with the first sentence:

        A sign on here.
        Sign on(e) here.

      • Probably because it is a cryptic poem, and you should try to understand all of its meanings, before you discount any kind of observation.

        But that’s only if you want. Some people dont think the poem is worth 15 years of creation. They think its worth a 48hr solve.

        “I am here” is a sentence that cant really be done like that.

  69. I would be of the same train of thought as RT in that I believe you have to find the State in which the treasure resides before any of the other clues make sense, otherwise it is random guessing. (IMO)

    So… for me the, “As I have gone alone in there, And with my treasures bold, I can keep my secret where, And hint of riches new and old.” Is an intro, as well as a specific starting point. The statement, as is asked by F in line three, “I can keep my secret where” just dangles out there when taken in context with the next line. Where?

    While this may seem too simple and straight forward, I think it is one of the most difficult clues to solve, as we can all make each State within the Chase, fit to some degree. Forest has history in all of the States we are searching. NM, his home and place where he became the man he is today. Montana, with his childhood memories that he holds so dearly. Wyoming, where he traveled every year to explore the beauty and history of the area and great battle sites. Etc.

    The poem itself is a map of how to find the treasure, so there has to be a starting point I believe. I originally felt that the begin it WWWH was the starting point, but after lengthy pondering and solves, I have personally concluded that it is too arbitrary to begin it WWWH, again IMO, I think I need the State and an understanding of why that particular State for WWWH to make sense.

    Forest quotes T.S. Eliot “we shall not cease from exploration, and at the end of our exploring will be to arrive where we started and know that place for the first time.”
    I sometimes think that this quote is misunderstood in the isolated context of a larger body of intent. For example: I grew up in the North East in New England and can remember riding the train quite often through the Hudson River Valley. I remember the sights, sounds and beauty of the experience. Many years later I had the opportunity to take the train from the “Toe” of Italy, all the way up through to Naples, Rome & Florence. It was beautiful, familiar and new all at the same time.
    If that makes sense. With this thought process in mind, I don’t believe that the treasure is anywhere obvious that he’s been, but at a special place that brings him to the memories of the places he holds dear. The embodiment of all these things.

    Anyhow….just my thoughts.


    • TSHB,

      To quote some of your astute, eloquent and, IMO, intuitively wise observations:

      “a special place that brings him to the memories of the places he holds dear. The embodiment of all these things.”

      “Where would a man with the memories of spirit and youth but with the refinement and wisdom of a man who has really experienced life want to go and why?”

      Thank you for putting such depth & feelings into words that I have not yet been able to express.


    • THSB,
      In a word “yes” to what you have said. There is a “main reason” for this area Forrest has chose but what you said follows suite. Not understanding the true meaning of “WWWH” is most likely why searchers who got two clues correct then in-turn went past the others. Maybe they didn’t decifer those clues, but were just in the correct area that those clue solves were. Then they took their search in another direction or could have “yes” went by the rest, putting them in that 200′-500′ range (tangent trail key here), chasing their solve to another wrong location. In my understanding of the poems clues, along with what WWWH clue is, there is one clue that you need boots on the ground to understand it’s meaning ( no google earth, map, or research will help). So to be 100 % sure of your solve before you head out just is not happening until you get to this area and see the true meaning for this clue, then it becomes clear (not the blaze). Other clues needed to get you head in the right direction can be solved before hand. IMO. Bur

      • where is the quote that ff said “within 200 ft (OF THE TREASURE)? I don’t think that he said the word TREASURE. I’ve heard “within 200 feet of (it)” and “within 200 ft” but never TREASURE. Am I wrong???

      • James (TZP): I can supply the quote for you. It was from the Mysterious Writings webpage’s annual Six Questions early this year. Question 3: “It seems I ask it every year during these Six Questions, but it is such a curiosity that I have to do so again. Do you feel anyone is getting closer? Do you feel you will get to congratulate the finder of your treasure within the next few years, or do you have a sense it will remain hidden for many more? Can you say?”

        Fenn’s answer: “Searchers speak to me about their search places only in generalities. I don’t know that anyone has been closer to the treasure than about 200’.”

  70. Sleepy…
    “Forest quotes T.S. Eliot “we shall not cease from exploration, and at the end of our exploring will be to arrive where we started and know that place for the first time.”

    To me, this quote has a very similar meaning to the old quote, “you can’t go home again.”
    Experience changes us, and even going back brings us to a new place. We see it all differently.

    I wonder what context Forrest had in mind.

    • Forrest included the T.S. Elliot quote, with a quote of his own. Here is the entire quote, “The person who finds the treasure will have studied the poem over and over, and thought, and analyzed and moved with confidence. Nothing about it will be accidental.
      T. S. Eliot said: We shall not cease from our exploration
      And at the end of all our exploring
      Will be to arrive where we started
      And know the place for the first time.” f

      This approach revealed, to me, the circular architecture of the poem. The last clue “…in the wood…” circled back to the first line of the poem…”As I have gone alone in there…” By substituting the different definitions of “wood” for “In there”, I went from a global view to a very specific view of where the treasure was. ..

      Coupling these two quotes was very important to me. JDA

      • Taking the T. S. Eliot quote in context with Forrest’s quote seems to be saying that “exploration” is equivalent to “thought and analysis” of the poem and maps, etc. from home. At the end of our thought and analysis we will arrive (BOTG) where we started and know the place for the first time (know the place for the first time because-even though we studied the starting spot, we are physically there for the first time.) IMO only.

          • I hope we can all talk openly about our ideas and solves some day. This is all very interesting.

          • Buckeye Bob,

            I’m sorry, I had to chuckle at your comment about ‘talk openly about our ideas and solves some day.’

            I get what ya mean… competition, the prize, etc. But we have talked about so many conceivable solves for six years and still when folks were at the clues no one knew. I still sit here some times and laugh at myself when I think I shouldn’t have give an idea or thought out because it might be something truly important…. we are all missing something. Something other than knowing where a clue or clues are.

            A few, several, many have told fenn exactly where they had been during a search… took him through their solve process, and yet none of them knew they were in the correct location or had some of the clues correct… That is so mind boggling to me… it’s just laughable that I would worry about an idea I post.

            And it’s killing me not being able to come up with that ” important possibility ” fenn has said none of us has. I say, go ahead and share… I wouldn’t worry too much..lol

          • Seeker, some day someone’s going to be right, and sharing too much could easily lead to their loss of the treasure.
            That’s not fair to them or their family.

            I’d encourage people to talk in generalities, and be very careful not to give out too much towards their own solve.

            I think the best purpose of this forum is to help people design their own logic plus imagination (I think you need both) to come up with their own game plan on how to attack this riddle.
            Also to help define what Forrest has said and weed out the chaff.
            But to share too much is offering up your own work to others for their gain and your own loss.

            It’s important that the person who wins the treasure is the person who deserves it.

          • Buckeye, if you don’t want to contribute that’s fine. Trying to shut down or limit what others want to say will get you nuked very quickly.

          • I’m just stating my opinion, Goofy.
            But you and Dal run your site, it is and always will be your call.

            On the other hand, I won’t be intimidated. Do what you want. But be aware that you guys use a system that is widely used and what you do to me will affect how I am perceived elsewhere. If you were to nuke me, I’d be instantly put on “moderation status” on every site that uses WordPress.
            That would be kind of crappy for simply posting my opinion, with no negative tone of any kind, wouldn’t it?

          • Bob, I don’t think nuking you here has anything to do with your standing on any other site, but I really don’t care.

            We are here to discuss finding the chest; if you don’t want to participate that’s fine go someplace else and quit wasting our time.

          • I enjoy reading everyone’s thoughts and understand a lot of folks have spent serious time throwing out different ideas. No one should just fold their tent and go away. We are all connected by one thing. That said, I’ve tried maps, books, read the poem, drank a Grapette, thought about going to a sweat lodge, finding some LSD, locate a clairvoyant and still have found no treasure. ( Okay, I was just kidding about the Grapette, sweat lodge and LSD, and the clairvoyant.)
            So many searchers….only one box. I never knew there were so many Brown’s in the Rocky Mountains! It’s a Thrill! Keep the humor in your search. FF would appreciate that.

          • Buckeye Bob,
            I’m not getting involved with you or Goofy and Dal’s policies… But you made a comment ~ ” If you were to nuke me, I’d be instantly put on “moderation status” on every site that uses WordPress.”

            I no nothing of computers, software programs… heck I don’t even have a phone… I have a handheld computer that happens to make phone calls.

            So could you or anyone, explain how a privately own and run blog site, could effect moderation on an entire internet providing system simply by blocking someone from using their personal site?

            I’m of simple thinking and this sound like… if I was told I couldn’t shop at “Mom N Pop store” in a city… all the other “Major” stores in the city would band me as well.

  71. IMO, WWWH is the first clue and canyon down is the second. The fist stanza contains hints but no clues. There are 9 clues and several hints within the poem.

    • You could be right kg, my statement above is just my opinion. I thought the same for a long time myself, as the poem tells you to, “Begin it where warm waters halt”.

      I’m sure between this site and the many others over the years, the debate as to what WWWH is and means are innumerable and growing.

      After the poem and TTOTC and possibly a few small crumbs, F gave us a map and said the chest is in one of these States as a way to help narrow the search area. For me, this led me to believe that he was saying you need to know where to start in order for WWWH to make sense and so on, otherwise you are randomly looking for the meaning of WWWH. Again, this is my opinion, I don’t have the chest…….yet. LOL

      Best of luck in your solves and searching.


    • Buckeye Bob ,

      You are exactly right.

      To think that there aren’t people out there reading this blog who would do just that, is Foolish.

      I will never publicize my solve before the chest is found. I personally feel it would create an immediate stampede to the area. If I am unable to locate it, I will never believe it is wrong, I will only believe that I missed some important detail. It is just too darn tight, and too dang unique. I will believe in it until I am proven wrong by the chest being found somewhere else.

      I guess I sound like lots of others who have come through here. But all of the hard work and effort I have put into this, 10,12,16,18-hour days setting here doing research, taking trips that were financed by robbing Peter to pay Paul, all the sleepless nights spent pacing the floor thinking, thinking, thinking, all of the days I’ve wished there were someone here at home that I could bounce ideas off of, all the times I’ve jumped up and shouted OMG !, only to have someone give me the eye-roll again . . .

      I’ll take it to my grave before I put it out there for someone who has less invested in it to drive a few miles and find it before I can get back.

      • So roll you’re posting here to tell us you’re not going to say anything? Or maybe you just want to impress us with your genius and perfect solution? You’re not alone; I’ve lost count of how many geniuses, that can’t be wrong, we’ve had here. Their solution is perfect and that is that. It’s odd to me that so many geniuses are in so many different places.

        The greatest obstacle to discovering the truth is being convinced you already know it.

        If you don’t have anything to say then don’t say it here.

        • Goofy ,

          In case you haven’t noticed, I’ve said plenty. In fact, I would dare to say that I’ve probably posted more comments than you have in the time that I’ve been here.

          I fail to see how I could possibly impress you or anyone else with my genius or perfect solution, seeing that I’ve posted neither.

          What I HAVE done , is offer some thought-provoking ideas and contributed to several discussions.

          Indeed, I do believe I have a very good solve. Is that against the rules here? Sorry, I didn’t get that memo.

          And , I do indeed have things to say, and I say those things on a pretty regular basis here.

          And, it doesn’t surprise me that you find it odd that there are so many geniuses in so many different places. I’m a country boy, I too, still marvel at things I don’t have the capacity to understand.

          If you don’t like that, you can nuke me too. I don’t need your sarcasm.

          • Roll, you have contributed to the discussion and believe it or not I’ve agreed with some of the things you’ve posted.

            You are free to post as much or as little as you like. But like I said, trying to stop or limit what someone wants to say about finding the chest will get you nuked.

          • RT –

            If today I told you the exact coordinates given to us by FF – you still wouldn’t find it.
            When FF said he though of everything – he sure did. So, IMO giving out hints is really not going to help anyone – as they need to know the key – which I believe is the blaze.

            I don’t know how long you have been working on the chase – but IMO there is no way this could possibly be done in even a year of solid work. I worked on it a solid two years – once I knew how it was done but, I’m only a red neck from Texas – so perhaps you could do it quicker.

          • Goofy ,

            Fair enough. I suppose I could have chosen my words a bit more carefully when replying to Bob. I see that now , after reading them again.

            It was not my intention to discourage anyone from posting anything.

          • into ,

            I don’t have the chest. Therefore, I don’t have the perfect solve.

            What I do have, is the drive and fierce determination to try to crack this thing wide open.

            I’ve only offered up bits and pieces that I feel others might take a look at and glean something from, things that might compel them to look at what f has said, in a different light.

            There is nothing wrong with me feeling that I have a very solid solve.

            I could be 100% wrong on every bit of it.

            If anything I offer up helps someone else look at their own solve from a different angle, and it moves them just the slightest bit forward, then that would please me to no end.

            We all hope to solve this thing so, maybe something I say will help someone else in their efforts.

            I just won’t show my entire hand, as I believe in it with a passion.

  72. Bob,

    I agree with you 100% and am on the same trend of thought.
    As for the context F had in mind, if we knew that, we would likely be in good shape with our solves. LOL.
    I put away the majority of a few years of research material about 6-8 months ago, filed away all of the “interview” crumbs and anything that is not the poem itself or a genuine clue. I did this as i felt that we have been inundated with so much information, much of which is non essential or a non-clue, that I wasn’t really thinking creatively. My thinking was very linear and tunnel visioned.
    I feel my approach to solving the poem has been much better since doing this and I’ve been devoting my time to the poem and how it relates to F’s life in sum. What was going through his mind when he did this? Where would he really want to be if actually had to go with the chest? What influences over the course of his life may have impacted the choosing of this special place? He wasn’t a care free and foot loose young man anymore, he was a decorated Veteran, a famous Art Dealer, a Hob-knobber with Celebrities/Artists, an Archaeologist, a Multi-millionaire, an aspiring Author. Where would a man with the memories and spirit of youth but the with the refinement and wisdom of a man who’s really experienced life want to go and why?

    I will continue to follow this course in the hopes of finding the answers to these questions. Time will tell….

    Best of luck Bob!


    • Sleepy, I think you’ve got a logical mind. But I wonder if it’s possible to do that.
      Still, I also have been wondering what makes this place special for Forrest. I hope that in the end we’ll find out.

      Good luck to you too.

      • Bob,

        I don’t believe I can feel what F was feeling or truly know his motive, but what I do feel is that by approaching it this way that the clues in the poem will make more sense.

        You would actually be surprised at my WWW’sH. It cross checks in a number of ways logically and it also has meaning in the context of his life, a milestone for lack of a better word. From there I have come up with a solve, Canyon Down, HoB, etc. that make sense and are not forced. I am know working on convincing myself I am correct, by working to prove myself wrong. lol
        We will see how it goes or head back to the drawing board.


        • You put me onto something that I had to check out for reference, but not for a solve (that would take a lot of time).
          You might be onto something.
          I have a really strong solve, and your thinking doesn’t fit it well, but I can see the general idea of where you are going with this line of thinking.

          Very nice!
          Have you said this before? I seem to recall something along these lines. If it wasn’t you, then you may have some competition.

          But I like it. I like it a lot.

        • TSHB ,

          Don’t practice until you get it right . . .

          Practice until you can’t get it wrong .

          Good luck to ya.

  73. Hum….my comments here just disappeared –{poof!}
    I’m glad they did, I think I gave away too much of my solve!
    Carry on!

  74. Imagine you’re a child, the kind that would call a butterfly a flutterby. You’re on grandpa’s lap looking at the pictures in Flywater. A stream is beclouded with little white winged things dancing above the waters. Grandpa asks you what you think it is. He knows it’s a hatch, but he asks you anyway because that’s how he teaches. You tell him it looks like a pillow fight. A big downy pillow fight. He laughs and agrees.

  75. Something interesting I noticed regarding the solves of many people. Each and every line of the poem is interpreted something other than what is written, except “take it in the canyon down”. We seem to read and use this line in our solves as is. why?
    We come up with a location what we think is where warm waters halt and we follow the canyon down.

    food for thought

    • UA,

      I kinda agree that many use this line as traveling into a canyon [ valley, gorge etc. ] But there have been other discussion about other possibilities.
      I have suggested that the Canyon down might be a line of sight. Or when involving waters as all liquid water… refers to the travel of the waters through out the watershed system and all canyon[s] to mean directional flow of the waters. or even a canyon type of description [ ice-free corridor ] that is no longer available to travel through or down.

      So what say you? How can you see this line other than a simple lower level with shear side needing to be traveled into?
      Give us a morsel of food for thought…

      • Seeker, I just replied to your post but it went to the bottom of the page for some reason. here i cut and paste so that it makes sense:

        I honestly have no idea. But if every word is deliberetly chosen to form the sentences, that sentence should not be taken at face value. imo. Since I am thinking out loud here, I will give an example to illustrate my point: GlenDive.

        • Yeah, I saw it below… lol… are you getting as dizzy as I am. I wonder if we can buy our own personal reply balloon… I get confused on which one to use sometime. Thanks again.

      • Why do the walls need to be shear Seeker? Couldn’t it be a gently sloping valley floor that a stream or river meanders through – like the Madison? JDA

        • Ok JD… in the definition of canyon, my description is correct. However, you are also correct to think the sloping can be gentle.

          When I use the definition version of a canyon, it’s because many seem to that as a larger long water eroded landscape. But I and others have suggested that the description may be the same but on a smaller scale… such as a mud puddle to an ant is like an ocean… the canyon could be a small passage way between two tall rock formations, and snakes it way for a short distance ( has the crow fly’s). Yet the actual distance of walking through could be double by snaking through… say the crow view to be a few hundred feet…to the walking through a 1000′

    • IMO the word ‘down’ it is not a direction. And an anser is not a reply, but drake may be the keyword.

      Keep an open mind and thoughtful imagination.

      • Down as in male Duck? Some have thought “down” to mean feathers or quills. Trust me when I say my imagination can waddle like no other… so if canyon down is not a travel clue, the meaning should be something either involving warm waters or not far… imo. or would you say neither?

        • Seeker, I think your ducky imagination is stuck in poem-purist mud & so is your research. You rely too much on asking questions about other’s research. If you know what the HOB is, you don’t need the book. If you haven’t got a clue, then you best start studying the book. Hint, hint..read the Flywater chapter with thoughtful imagination and some research. If you use ONLY the poem, then the fact that HOB is in the same stanza with warm waters is the hint you will have to live with. Good luck.
          PS, spelling counts, don’t trust spellchecker or newer on-line dictionaries.

          • OS2,

            The difference in the approaches… I think the poem can explain itself.

            While the books hints may help one to think about clues… I can read indicators in the poem that may help understanding what is needed to be viewed, done, worked with when on site… this gives me the impression that we have work ahead of us to understand how to locate clues and the chest.

            This thought process seems to fall inline with those searchers at the correct location of the clues and chest and still no find…they all seem to simply walk by the clues without a thought that a clue or clues have a use, and not simply a location.

            You can research all ya like… I mean someone today claimed they put more than 8 hours a day into research…. lol… some folks need to work for a living, and I don’t believe it was fenn intention to do all that research.

            But that’s just me.

          • True, ROLL TIDE, good thought, and applicable to ff’s self-confidence comments, but not the condition I have in mind.

          • OS2,
            I don’t think RT meant clinical depression….

            More to a description of a canyon on a much smaller scale. Some may even call it a hollow type landscape.

            Another thought would be a narrow passageway with tall rock sides.

            And still another thought might be a basin style landscape.

            Are we truly to believe an 80 yr old carrying a heavy backpack walk up and down a major canyon way twice in one afternoon?

            Sure fenn is in great shape for his age… but many teenagers today would have a hard time traversing some of these canyons… maybe that’s why some feel the need for a vehicle to travel some of the clues. But to me that takes away the reasoning to be out and exploring

          • Seeker, I didn’t really think ‘clinical depression’ was a serious consideration… just that the the word ‘down’ had been used in the book in several contexts & accumulatively they might be a hint.

            Like the word brown… used mostly for color in the book, but the mundane context of a lunch BAG or a SACK could share the descriptive commonality of a HOLE. i think it is pretty clever to think of a sack or a bag as a ‘hole’… and a ‘hole’ is a geographic feature use a lot in mountain areas. The color brown is also used a lot for toasted or cooked or burnt things, …ie, fire- hole.

            Could mean nada, could mean something, could be subconscious word choices. Armchair thoughts. OS

  76. What did I stumble on today??…. A few seachers and goofy getting into it… my 2 cents I think we all research whether its on the internet,books, interviews etc.. and we use this site for some of it … but I think we all keep the real juicy hunches, clues, solves to ourself or our team… But I got an alternative…. Stay TUNE

  77. I honestly have no idea. But if every word is deliberetly chosen to form the sentences, that sentence should not be taken at face value. imo. Since I am thinking out loud here, I will give an example to illustrate my point: GlenDive.

    • Ok thanks… you posted this just prior to my response / question to you. I’m getting slower in my old age.

      • into –
        I was just giving an example as how the words canyon and down can be interpreted as something else instead of their face values. By taking canyon as glen and down as diving, one can form the word Glendive which happens to be a place in Montana.

        • UA –

          I see now — sometimes I can be very thick….

          If the poem is written as straight forward – isn’t that changing things a bit much? Ummm – maybe not – God knows I don’t have it.

          • UA –

            Did you read the precisely part – I know you did …………. every word is straight forward and means just what an average red neck guy would think it means. Don’t mess with his poem. Did I not teach you anything. Look for the rainbow and it’s not in Montana.

  78. “It doesn’t matter who you are, it only matters who they think you are”

    This may be one of the biggest hints Forrest has given.

    • He must have coined it when in a cynical depression, because he does seem to care that the impression he gives is honest. IMO.

  79. Poking back in here from Florida & looks like I missed a lot of action.
    No, I didn’t find the chest near Taylor Creek but is a very beautiful area to hike & will go back some day I hope.
    Next to the last day hiking, we finally found a way to get to the falls & cascading steps with lots of pools, nooks & cranny’s unfortunately there was not much daylight left & the battery from my video camera was low.

    Left my books with a local & he may search again this year.
    The hike in & out was about 2 miles each way & may be borderline for 2 trips in one afternoon although it is doable by a child & or an 80 yr old person that is in good shape.

    Very special area. Will share more.

    • Glad you had a safe trip. Sorry, no bronze box! Glad it was a beautiful area, and that you found a way to the Falls. JDA

      • Yes JD,
        Try to stay safe.
        Unfortunately my hiking partner at the end of my trip decided to get too close to the top of the cliffs & take a peak down.
        He slipped, fell at one of the tops on some dry vegetation & dirt. In a split second he reached out & grabbed a small pine sapling branch with his right hand.
        I couldn’t believe his good fortune because I thought he was going to slide off the face of the cliff to his death 50′ below on solid rock.
        I am amazed at how strong & helpful those saplings are.
        About 100′ further down the way there was a way to get into the bottom of the canyon safely.

        There is only one way in & out of this small gorge about 200′ from trail #17.

        Sometimes it’s not your time.

        • WOW – Glad we are reading about a “Near Miss” here, not a headline! As you say, “Sometimes it’s not your time.” Glad that that sapling was there. Am sure it was traumatic enough as it turned out. Just
          thinking about how it could have ended sends shivers down my spine.

          Glad you are both OK – JDA

          • Ya JD, I visualize it every night before going to rest.
            Back to to what Forrest said about the poem leading you to the chest (paraphrasing).
            I would have to think the clues lead you directly to it without going by it like a dead end street or maybe the blaze or something else is the last clue where you find it but it bothers me that you could still go by the chest even being so close not the 200 footers.

          • Yes, it is a bit scary thinking about being so close, and not seeing it.

            I personally do NOT think that the blaze is the last clue, and that all you have to do is look down and pick it up.

            As I have posted before, “Look quickly down” has an obscure definition that tells you WHERE to look, not HOW to look.

            Also, I think that Tarry Scant is the last instruction clue…not the final clue, but the last instruction clue.

            Just as many think that once the blaze is found, you look at your feet and there it is…I think that once you correctly identify the tarry scant, it is here that you will find the TC…..but what do I know? NADA

            Again, glad you and your partner are safe. JDA

          • I know JD,
            You have suggested many times.
            But what I am trying to get at is there a stop point in the poem where you can’t go any further to get the chest?
            If the poem will lead you directly to the chest then there should be something fairly permanent there at the end point & not a patch of trees or brush.
            There should be a long lasting feature in a confined area where the treasure resides & the poem should point to that.

          • Jake: first, welcome back! Sorry you are bronze-less, but happy to hear that things didn’t go sideways for you or your friend. Yikes! I echo your comment that the final clue must be fairly permanent: not a tree, shrub, rock cairn, etc. What the wise searcher must figure out is what sorts of things are permanent?

          • Zap,
            2 things come to mind lately after the trip.
            My Thrill of the Chase book is enough to lead an average person to the treasure.f.
            Average person, no special knowledge or equipment except for geography.
            As far as I can see here, there are a lot of non average people chiming in here.
            For some reason or another they feel the need to stretch the average.

            The poem will lead you right to the chest.

            So, now we have an average person & the book as well as the poem & geography – maybe will lead to the chest.

            This info tells me it is straightforward & no need to be trying to recreate new ways to solve what is already a difficult poem just considering the 4 states.

            Oh, we need to rearrange the words in every line & come up with something that needs to be done just to figure out what “I” means.

            Read the poem for what it is & not for what it isn’t.

          • Jake;

            Read my last paragraph. The Tarry Scant IS the feature that you are looking for. I see it as pretty permanent – NOT a tree or bush.

            A “Monument” if you will a “Marker”
            that will remain for a long while.


          • LOL, Jake

            That’s a lot of knowing what to do with the information we have been told to use, and still your straightforward, dumb down, average directional stomping brought ya back with only great stories of the outdoor in the mountains… all great… But why dismiss possibilities? or as fenn stated, those WhatIF’s?

            Seriously, if all this was, is to find the starting point and stomp out the clues like tracking a deer… how can folks be in the exact location of all the clues and not even know what they are doing???

            You can voice as loud as ya want about how you see the poem as average to understand… but the evidence or lack of, doesn’t seem to be in your favor. Personally I think you’re making the same mistake most of us did when we started the challenge… we under estimated the author dedication to difficult but not impossible.

          • Hi Jake,

            “Zap, 2 things come to mind lately after the trip. My Thrill of the Chase book is enough to lead an average person to the treasure.f. Average person, no special knowledge or equipment except for geography.”

            I would agree that the book and the right map are sufficient. And if everyone was on the same clock, was given 20 years to work on it, and then “pencils down!” they were all allowed to go check out their solutions, an average person might very well find it first. But that’s not the case here, is it? Someone bright is going to figure out the clues long before someone average.

    • After not finding the chest, and then exploring the nearby areas for kicks, we hiked up to Buffalo Horn Pass to get a look at the Gallatin Valley, not near Taylor Creek especially, but near enough to send the Gallatin gang good wishes.

      So, is Taylor Creek a scratch? Almost unfortunately, I cannot rule out my solution up to spotting the blaze. Rock shelters galore, with natural gems. Just no blaze to ID the correct one.

      • Hey Joseph,
        Can’t scratch it yet until it’s searched more thoroughly.
        Tried to get up that creek many ways starting in June & finally when I was able to find one way in & one way out which I knew was the case from the beginning but didn’t know where, had to leave.

        • Jake, I did not know you where in Taylor Fork area. I guess I missed that when you had stated that previously. I am in a similar area and didn’t know anyone else to be here searching anymore. I hope we are right. But my question is what brought you to the area? Can I ask where you started your first two clues at? I will tell you mine. They started up the canyon at the mirror of the great divide.

  80. OS2— what I meant by the quote above was in regards to the poem–not the character of Forrest. What I meant is that the poem can look very “real” pointing in one direction (what you really think it is)—and yet have a completely different meaning and direction to it (what it REALLY is). I believe Forrest is always honest—didn’t mean to give any other impression.

    I just happen to believe that parts of the poem have different meanings than we give them—for example– “waters high” could refer to clouds, not waterfalls—you catch my drift? 🙂

  81. “Until someone finds the treasure they will not know for sure that they have discovered the first clue.” This quote from Fenn makes me believe that the common, obvious choices for clue # 1 are probably not even close. This most likely explains why searchers did not know where they were or how close…

    • To me you are jumping to conclusions not based on fact.

      It is simply a statement of truth. Until the treasure IS located, there is absolutely no way of knowing for sure that ANY of your solutions to clues are correct. It may SEEM that you have figured it all out…all of the pieces SEEM to fit like pieces to a jigsaw puzzle, but until the last piece it placed, the picture will ALWAYS remain a mystery – an uncertain mystery. What happens when you have placed all of the pieces, except one, into the puzzle, and the last piece does not fit? It is easy to jump to conclusions – I only have four pieces left, and there are only four places for them to go – puzzle complete! SORRY -not until the last piece is comfortably in place, not forced.

      Just my opinion. – Play all of the pieces – JDA

      • You could be right JDA… your response was how I reacted when that statement was discussed a while ago. I believe differently now. Your analogy of a jigsaw puzzle does not fit for my method, but that is just another example of interpretation difference. The first clue is definitely a lot more ambiguous than what is commonly believed…IMO

    • May I add, “ignore the first clue”… “don’t dwell enough of the first clue”, tell searcher to “go back to the poem” etc.

      The first clue or even the first two clues [ that ‘might’ work in conjunction with each other ] Might not be in the descending order, we think it is.
      Personally I think fenn was blowing off interviewers who asked about “hoB” stating… if he told them what it was, they could walk right to the chest. [ as I said, he blew them off because he won’t talk about an actual clue ]
      BUT should that be an accurate hint, could hoB be the first clue? and where we start at to find wwwh etc.

      Possibility / WhatIf, All the above is below hoB and where we find hints of riches, wwwh etc. and the reason for us to “put in” below it. That could explain why those at the first two clues didn’t understand the significance of where they were… the needing to know this is a must to follow the others from an exact point?! Follow “precisely”?
      One foot on top of the other?

      So basically… “from there it’s no place for the meek”… would follow NFBTFTW. While those searcher may have been looking for the hoB in the wrong location or didn’t understand they might have been below it already, yet without that understanding their path was off to start with… It could be consecutive order if read this way… just not descending order written in the poem.

      • Seeker –

        When asked if HOB could be reverse engineered – he answered yes………..so that kinda blows what could have been a very nice theory. I think……

        • Into;

          Were you able to make any sense at all of Seeker’s posting. I have to admit to being a dunderhead. I just could not figure out what he was trying to say. Can you translate for me? JDA

          • LOL – JD

            I think what he was saying is don’t start at wwwh but start at hob and then go back to wwwh at the end. I think….

            Of course that kinda screw gees with where FF told us to begin.

            Reverse engineering means that one would find HOB first and then go back to find WWWH and start the journey there continuing on by hob.

          • If what you say is correct, it still does not make sense to me. IF you start at hoB—what CLUE led you to the hoB? Nothing, since this is your new beginning. Just picking “A” or “AN” hoB out of nowhere, and using it as a starting point is like throwing darts.

            Regarding wwwh – Forrest said something like there are thousands of wwwh, and most are north of Santa Fe. Just picking “A” or “AN” hoB would be the same.

            Start at hoB, somehow solve the rest of the clues and find the treasure at wwwh? Why? What logic is there to that? What is there in the poem that indicates that the TC is at wwwh? None that I can see.

            OR, start at hoB and reverse engineer back to wwwh? Why? If you just picked “A” or “AN” hoB out of thin air, what will you have accomplished by reverse engineering to “A” wwwh? NADA.

            Sorry, it just makes no sense or logic. Hope you can explain it to this old man so that it makes sense.


          • Into;

            Having given this idea of starting at hoB a little more thought…IF you start at hoB, solve the entire puzzle – end up at wwwh, from there you have to “take it in the canyon down”, and then “Put in” below the hoB. Below hoB, in this case would be slightly upstream from hoB. SO – all you have to do is start at hoB – go upstream to the “Put in” point, find the treasure and forget about solving ANY of the rest of the puzzle – “My God, why didn’t I think of that?” to quote Forrest. Sounds good to me. JDA

          • JD –

            Finding HOB first is exactly what I did in the beginning. It can be done. What lead me there – the entire poem. I knew where he was hinting at and it has never changed. I truly believe there is a short way and a long way to the same solve in more ways than one. Unless you do the long solve – you will not know what he said (the hidden treasure) or why he did this.

        • Into,

          Just like straightforward… reverse engineering may be misconstrued. Note; May Be.

          I say this due to the meaning of reverse engineering…the reproduction of another manufacturer’s product following detailed examination of its construction or composition.
          …Reverse engineering, also called back engineering, is the processes of extracting knowledge or design information from anything man-made and re-producing it or re-producing anything based on the extracted information.

          The Q&A ; Do you think that someone who is sure about the location of the home of Brown could reverse-engineer where warm waters halt? ~Ben Raylor
          Thanks for the question Ben.
          If you are sure about the location of home of Brown why are you concerned about where warm waters halt? But to answer your question, sure you could and a few searchers might throw in some gas money for a percentage of the take. Good luck.f


          You’re probably correct in your comment INTO… but lets look at this a bit closer… “why would you be concerned about warm waters halt?”

          Is this saying WWH is any specific place in consideration to hoB?
          Reverse Engineering is not about finding a starting point, but more to it’s components and the knowledge obtained by those … and not so much an “order”. SO is it possible that HoB being so closely connected to wwwh and still be the first clue, is more important to have that component or knowledge [hoB] to worry about wwh? The significance of what the clue refer to?

          So reverse engineering any part of a know component can be done no matter where that component is located. There is no true order to reverse engineering, just the design “information”.

          On the other hand, if fenn was talking about “order” of clues, then it would appear to be “working backwards in an order” and NO, the suggestion I presented would not work. So nice comeback… made me think and still is. And thanks for understanding my babbling.

          • Seeker –

            So, I take it you get the fact that you can indeed just find HOB and forget all about WWWH? But, If you did that – I don’t think one could possibly be content with their solve.

            I don’t know how to explain it -but no – you cannot reverse engineer the other clues. It does not work that way.

            Don’t ignore where he tells us to begin.

            You asked – Is this saying WWH is any specific place in consideration to hoB?

            WWH is a place and HOB is a different place. Not related but close to each other. imo

          • Into,
            I see what you’re saying, I see it to.

            Lets look at it like the reverse bicycle. We don’t need to see that it turns the opposite way then we want the bike to go… we need to understand why it goes that way. What component makes the bike turn the opposite way we want to travel. [ on the bike it was the gear set up on the handlebars]

            hoB may work the same way… it appears to be in order below wwwh etc. because we see it in descending order in the poem.
            But if we read it to be “put in” everything else we just read below it, [ change the gears or reverse engineer what is not working properly, if you will ]
            Now we understand the true starting point and directions / instructions.
            Is this what fenn meant by able to adjust?

            Not to see it as we think it should be, but to see it as how it actually works?

            You might laugh at all this, yet think about the other comments…
            “don’t ‘dwell’ enough on the first clue”
            “ignore the first clue” [ who the heck ignores wwwh? ]
            “without the first clue you might as well stay ‘home”
            keeps telling us to… “go back to the poem”
            “All the information to find the chest is in the poem”

            Important possibility? “know where to begin”? “Start at the beginning”?

            Just thoughts of those after the fact suggestions, and how they might relate.
            Well, those are my research items anyways.

          • JD –

            I never said WWWH was at the end of the poem. I was telling you what seeker said.

            The poem is in order ……..contiguous…

          • Into: you opined that “The poem is in order ……..contiguous…”

            Sure, the poem is. It’s 24 lines broken into stanzas of 4 lines each. You read it like you would read any book.

            But that doesn’t mean the clues follow the same linear top-down pattern.

          • Zap

            That’s a hard one to answer…….the poem directions are in order ………..to be followed precisely – but I have not count them. You have to create the clues = build like in a blueprint………and you won’t even know you have nine clues until you are almost done. If anyone thinks this is a walk in the park…..they are very wrong.

        • Into,
          you said; “I think what he was saying is don’t start at wwwh but start at hob and then go back to wwwh at the end. I think….”

          Nope, what I was attempting to explain is, could the second sentence in stanza 2 mean that a searcher might “put in” wwwh, canyon down, not far etc. below hoB.

          Simply saying… everything we read to hoB, is below hoB, and where we “put in” to begin it where… we don’t go back because hoB would be first to “know” of.

          So home of Brown is the need to be known factor as first clue and without it, you can’t start in the proper point of wwwh.. line of thinking.
          This would eliminate any guessing on those many wwwh in the RM’s… lol… the problem is now… what the heck does hoB refers to.

          This is why reverse engineering can work for, “not worrying where wwh” it’s about how the poem is designed and how the information is retrieved to understand how the components work. That is reverse engineering…

          • Seeker – read what I just posted above – I think you are getting the gist of it. WWWH is first but not a need to know…OK?

          • I just read what you posted, But i think you miss understand my point, that wwh is not a full circle back or can be hopped over. It very much as important as hoB or any other clue… I don’t think there is a short cut at all… you need all the information.

            But I am curious that you say, “why he did this” Is there a meaning other than what we have been explained, in your opinion?

            We have been told this was originally to; Plan his death.
            Take it with him, to mean his possessions.
            To get other back to nature and influence the thrill of the chase to future generations.
            But ruined it when he recovered from his illness, and still set out to challenge us to find his special place.
            Dedicated many years in the process to get it all the way he want it to be, and here we are….

            Help me out, what am I missing?

          • Seeker –

            He told you there is a hidden treasure..other than indulgence …and I know there is. Do you want me to tell you….not tonight. Maybe someday when I’m dying.

  82. I was reading the part after the poem in the book where he says ” he came back as Captain Kidd and got scared so bad”. I cannot understand what he is trying to say there. Why was he scared so bad?
    Is he saying someone else came back as Kidd and that is why he got scared?

  83. After burying the treasure on Gardiner’s island, Kidd was later convicted of piracy; his “letters of marque”, which proved that he was “straight forward” a privateer (and not a pirate) somehow never made it to his trial. IMO, Kidd was never able to find “contentment”, to “arrive where [he] started and know the place for the first time.”
    “Have flashlight, will travel”

  84. Have you ever seen a movie where there is a scene where it’s dark and raining, and then a flash of lightning illuminates everything for a split second, and you see a person or animal or thing for just that split second and then all goes dark again?

    That’s how I envision “look quickly down”–like a lightning flash. I read about lightning, and did you know in slow motion the electric static charge actually flows upwards, not down? It just appears to be moving down. But the actual light itself travels upward in the charge of electricity. Pretty fascinating.

    This poem is totally amazing. It really is. It isn’t a poem– it is the invention of a genius. I can’t wait until the treasure is found, and all the amazing facets of this poem are revealed. It is clearly the architecture of a gifted wordsmith.

    By the way, I was reading about Tutankhamen today. Did you know he had a club foot? I have learned a lot of things since beginning this search. I am very glad I found out about this a month and a half ago. It has been a great learning experience.

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