Odds n Ends About Fenn’s Treasure Hunt…Part Eighteen


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674 thoughts on “Odds n Ends About Fenn’s Treasure Hunt…Part Eighteen

    • Now that is odd spallies! 😀

      I found something odd yesterday morning researching the poem. I located a “blaze” that you could take a radial on. It wouldn’t be feasible or practical to remove it … and quickly down from it, there is a circled “X” 😯
      Now that is really odd!

  1. Some people say that I look like Bill Murray. I don’t mind that. After all, Bill Murray does have a strong TTOTC connection. It doesn’t take a genius to figure that out! Oh, IMO

          • I think you have the wrong star. Dan Akroyd has the most direct connection to the chase. He was the first to visit the Home of Brown.

          • Stealth- but Slurbs looks like Bill Murry.
            This is fun though!
            Iron- Lost in translation is something I thought about a while back. If you like to connect the movie “National Treasure” to the chase, then this “Lost in translation” theory literally translates to “The secret lies within the Charlotte”. Beings that Scarjo, is Charlotte. lol.
            I think Murray, and Scarjo, are the only 2 people who know what Murray said to her in that movie. (I guess it was improvised) It is so interesting and fun trying to figure out.

          • Hey Hammer…how you been?

            Im still rattling solves around in my mind, but I might be close enough for a flight across the nation soon.

  2. Sorry we ran out of room on the old thread. We had a good conversation going on Seeker’s idea of starting at hoB. Oh well C’est la vie. JDA

    • If my hunch is right JD… it’s going to be VERY hard to START at the Home of Brown… VERY VERY hard.

    • not that my opinion matters in the big scheme of things, but I’ll go look at that and see what I can see for ya.

    • I just can’t see it. If you want to detail your route and mail it to me ironwilly@gmail.com, I can give you better look.

      From what I see there is a mirror lake to the NE of the 3 river junction of firehole, mad, gibb but I cannot see getting there thru the poem. The one up in MT north… can’t pan that one out either 🙁

        • Well…Half of my solves are using Brown Trout. The other half are using something to do with calamari. Yummm

          • Thanks. I keep thinking HOB should be something more tangible than fish.. I get the fact that FF lived in his fishing holes and how it could apply. Just can’t make the rest fit.

  3. Since the end of the search season is drawing nigh and since Forrest is backing off from his involvement, I have a question. If the treasure is still not found, and someone got very close so a solve (everything but not knowing what the blaze is, or someone emailing with a solve but not having BOTG yet) should Forrest give that information when he is asked for an update? That update would be helpful for all of the searchers, but it could also be very helpful to the person or people who are close.

    • JBL,
      Part of a comment fenn reiterates, I think will explain your request: ~ …someone got very close so a solve (everything but not knowing what the blaze is, or someone emailing with a solve but not having BOTG yet) should Forrest give that information when he is asked for an update?

      “…I am determined to stay aloof of providing any additional clues that are useful. Everyone has the same information to work with. Some few have stopped within several hundred feet of the correct location, and then passed it by. I said in my book that the solution will be difficult but not impossible. If it was easy anyone could do it. Whoever finds the treasure will mostly earn it with their imagination…”

      • Thank you. I thought that kind of update might give the person that was close an advantage, but was curious if others would think so as well.

    • What makes you think Forrest wants to be helpful to hunters of his treasure? He’s having a great time being engaged, honest & unhelpful.

    • JBL and everyone else,
      It sounds as though you don’t care if Forrest is doing ok just so he can reply to someone close. As far as I’m concerned Forrest shouldn’t be telling any more clues or hints… He has 3 years, 36 months, 1,095 days of hints, clues, videos, MW, and who knows how many blogs that Forrest is involved with. With that much information out there and you really need is the poem I would think that it is time for him to relax. The TC is out waiting for someone to find it. So I say it’s time that people start respecting Forrest Fenn’s doctor’s order and figure this out on your own.
      Sorry if I upset people but it had to be said,
      Best of luck to all and be safe,

      • I’m sorry I came across as so uncaring. That is actually the opposite of how I feel. What if someone is very close or has a winning solve and can’t get to the treasure before the winter comes. Then searchers are unable to look until Spring and Forrest’s health could deteriorate more. I want the treasure found and Forrest to be involved in the publicity of the find. How sad would it be if the treasure is found and Forrest isn’t around.

        Since I am new to the chase, this will be my first experience with the winter “hibernation” of the chase. I started thinking about next spring and Forrest’s health.

        (I have a specific solve and I am again sick in bed. I am trying to decide whether to share my solve with someone and have them look soon, or wait until I am well and go in the spring.)

        Again, I am sorry I came across as so uncaring.

        • JBL,
          You didn’t come across as bad as you think but it doesn’t matter to Forrest whether or not the treasure is found this year, last year or for the next 1,000 years to come. Forrest isn’t looking to become any part of the news media if and when the TC is found and he had made it very clear that he will be fine when ever it is found whether he is alive or i’m alive or anyone else. Today, tomorrow, next week, next year he is fine with it…
          If you are new to this and this is your first winter then I should tell you that all of the blogs gets very low with searchers talking. Most of them wait till spring is close then the blogs kick back in and we are all off to the races. Don’t go searching this year if your not sure. The weather in the mountains can be night and day different from when you started walking to when you think you should head back. We have already lost Randy because he knew right where it was and Randy was a searcher for a few years. Use the winter to talk on the blogs and do your best paperwork to find out more about Forrest Fenn and finish your solve so that there is no question in your mind about it. Looking at a map and Google Earth does not get you prepared for the reality of BOTG…
          Take your time, there has been 100,000 people out there so it isn’t like it’s going to be stumbled upon.
          Best of luck to you , welcome to treasure hunting 101 and most of all BE SAFE out there…

  4. Poster Into (to avoid confusion): continuing our earlier thread, in response to my saying the clues don’t necessarily have to follow the linear top-down approach that one takes to reading the poem, you replied:

    “That’s a hard one to answer…….the poem directions are in order ………..to be followed precisely – but I have not count them.”

    You’ll have to be more specific about what you mean by “in order”. If you mean that in a normal reading of the poem, you will encounter the clues in the order you need to solve and apply them, I would strongly disagree. For some clues, it isn’t even possible to “read” them this way.

    ” You have to create the clues = build like in a blueprint…”

    Now THAT is an accurate statement.

    “…and you won’t even know you have nine clues until you are almost done. If anyone thinks this is a walk in the park…..they are very wrong.”

    Again, I agree. The clues in the first and second stanzas are hard and not obvious. So many people fixate on translating the vague English of the poem into places and directions, because they can’t “imagine” another way to use the poem.

    • Zap –

      FF said the poem is “straight forward” and I think it is too. If one plays with not beginning where he told us to begin and rearranging things, then they are probably on the wrong path. Does that answer your question…….

      I know you read what I said – but I’m not quite sure you heard me.

      • Into: I certainly believe the clue method is straight-forward, that the clues have to be followed in their proper order, contiguously, one clue to the next. I just disagree that the specific locations within the poem that the clues appear ~necessarily~ are consecutive left-to-right, top-down in the order you would follow them on a map. There is no need for Forrest to be that rigid since the map would already indicate the proper order of the clues.

        So you see, I’m not re-ordering the poem at all. On the contrary, to do so would destroy clues. I am “extracting” the clues from the poem, wherever they happen to appear, and applying them in the order they are described by the narrative of the poem.

        • For my solve – using the one sentence = one clue, I can pretty much agree.

          Stanza #1 = clue #1
          lines 1 – 3, stanza #2 = clue #2
          Line #4, stanza #2 = clue 3
          Stanza #3 = clue #4
          Stanza #4 = clue #5
          Lines 1 & 2, stanza #5 = clue #6
          lines 3 & 4, stanza #5 = clue #7
          Lines 1 & 2, stanza #6 = clue # 8 and
          Lines 3 & 4, stanza #6 = clue # 9

          All of Stanza #5 is why Forrest hid the TC, and why it is important that the searcher find it, so therefore the “information” in Stanza #5 will NOT be contiguous on a map.

          Clue #8 (to me) is not a place and therefore is not contiguous on a map.

          Clue #9 is very much an indication of a location, but not one you go to after you have found the blaze and the Tarry Scant, so therefore is also not contiguous.

          All clues MUST be solved consecutively, and ALL are contiguous through Stanza
          #4 or clue #5 – at least that is the way it is in my solve.

          My view of consecutive vs contiguous. JDA

          • Stanza #1 is a location, but the FINAL location, so is not contiguous on a map to wwwh, which, to me, is the first MAP location. – then see above description. JDA

  5. Zap;

    From above, you state: “in response to my saying the clues don’t necessarily have to follow the linear top-down approach that one takes to reading the poem,”

    I think that Forrest has been VERY clear. From the cheat sheet above: Forrest has said:
    ♦ There are nine clues in the poem.
    ♦ Start at beginning
    ♦ Q: Will the poem lead you to the treasure? “Yes if you know where to start.”
    ♦ Clues in consecutive order
    ♦ Don’t mess with my poem

    You then say, “If you mean that in a normal reading of the poem, you will encounter the clues in the order you need to solve and apply them, I would strongly disagree. For some clues, it isn’t even possible to “read” them this way.

    ” You have to create the clues = build like in a blueprint…”

    Now THAT is an accurate statement.”

    Isn’t that messing with the poem? And if you do not create (or find) the clues in a top-down order, aren’t you breaking one of Forrest’s edicts?…Clues in consecutive order…

    I wish you the best of luck, but it sounds to me like you are trying to force a size 10 foot into a size 7 shoe.

    It is my firm belief that the poem is straight-forward…read it top-down. Solve each clue as you come to it – top down. Go to the next line or sentence/clue – solve it – –top-down. Don’t force anything. It will ALL fall neatly into place.

    Just the mutterings of an old geezer, with only two brain cells working.

    Good luck, and TRY to STAY SAFE


    • I have to agree with you JDA, that is one of my major rules in solving the poem, Don’t mess with the poem. IMO the poem is very straightforward, hard to decipher, but all you need is your imagination, some creative thinking, and the poem.

    • JD –

      I said ” You have to create the clues = build like in a blueprint…”

      Zap said – Now THAT is an accurate statement.”

      You said – Isn’t that messing with the poem? And if you do not create (or find) the clues in a top-down order, aren’t you breaking one of Forrest’s edicts?…Clues in consecutive order…

      To limit ones thinking to just to poem imo is a big mistake. FF said to use the the poem, the book. and a good map. So did you use a map? Did you use the book in your solve?

      I never rearranged the poem or changed a word of it. Did I use it in my solve – of course.

      If you think you can solve this with just the poem – I wish you the best of luck…………..

      • I most certainly use the poem, the book(s), and a darned good map. T try to at least consider all VALID info available. JDA

      • Hey Into
        I’ve been here for over 3 years now and I have finally finished the poem. I did NOT use the books to complete my solve but I did use all kinds of history about my location to figure out the answers. What I have done now is I have cross referenced my poem answers with the stories in the books. It was very easy as I read the stories they would say something about the subject and it would cause me to check my poem answers to see if it is what the story says it is. And just like JDA my wife and I have made quite a few trips from Illinois to do BOTG and retrieve more information for the poem. Not going to get the TC but going to get information for the poem solve and make sure we are on the right path.
        Remember, Forrest did say and I quote ” all you need to solve the poem and retrieve the TC is the poem”. I say the books and everything else is more of a check your solve out purpose than relying on them. If that is how most of the people are doing it then I can see why they are not finding the TC. You read the books, blogs, videos, mw ect. ect. then you set down and make it work with your solve instead of the poem walking you through it to the completion.
        Either way, good luck with your solve and be safe out there, and have a GPS locator just for emergencies…
        Winter is here in higher elevations, dress for the trek not for style, night time lows are in the 30’s and 20’s in some places..IMHO

    • Hey JDA
      I know where I started at but I’m hearing people here say you have to start where f tells you to. Which of these are they talking talking about, The 1st stanza or the 2nd stanza wwwh? I started at the beginning, you can figure out where that is? And why is then when people are talking to f he says that you have to start at the beginning, he has never stated ,(to the best of my knowledge) that wwwh is the beginning. Has he? After I try my solve I have something to say about that wwwh. What a surprise it was. My only question is about the Clovis ax, where did that comment from?
      be safe and best of luck to you

      • Timothy;

        I just posted a lengthy post that shows that the beginning to me is the first word of the first stanza.

        Look for my newest post, other than this one, and you will see EXACTLY how I think


        • JDA
          I read everything that you write, I was just a little boggled.
          Personally JDA I think that the beginning is the Title to the poem. That’s where I started and sometime time soon I will share why I did that. I have a very Legitimate reason for it…
          Best of Luck Friend and be safe out there.
          By the way, when is Jake due back?Hope the weather wasn’t to much of an issue.

  6. Hmm, I envision a puzzle who’s pieces interlock with the next. And disagree hunches shouldn’t b played. Some very good detective work can b worked from Ideas and Imagination on a hunch…js

    • B Heston.

      A trip to the “Cheat Sheet” above might be helpful. It lists all kinds of hints that Forrest has given in the past – like this one, “♦ “Playing a hunch is not worth much in the search and those who start out by looking for the blaze, are wasting their time.f”. Seems pretty clear. I have a “HUNCH” that if you follow your “HUNCHES” you will have a nice vacation playing canasta. Just my thoughts. JDA

  7. JDA,

    “I think that Forrest has been VERY clear. From the cheat sheet above: Forrest has said:
    ♦ There are nine clues in the poem.
    ♦ Start at beginning
    ♦ Q: Will the poem lead you to the treasure? “Yes if you know where to start.”
    ♦ Clues in consecutive order
    ♦ Don’t mess with my poem”

    I don’t believe you will be able to point me to a quote where Forrest ever said the clues were consecutive. He said they were contiguous, but that is not the same thing.

    “You then say, ‘If you mean that in a normal reading of the poem, you will encounter the clues in the order you need to solve and apply them, I would strongly disagree. For some clues, it isn’t even possible to “read” them this way.

    ” You have to create the clues = build like in a blueprint…”

    Now THAT is an accurate statement.”

    Isn’t that messing with the poem?”

    The way I extract clues from the poem does not mess with it in the least. You are just lacking imagination in how he hid clues.

    “And if you do not create (or find) the clues in a top-down order, aren’t you breaking one of Forrest’s edicts?…Clues in consecutive order…”

    I will reiterate, you will not be able to find a quote from him where he wrote that.

    “It is my firm belief that the poem is straight-forward…read it top-down. Solve each clue as you come to it – top down. Go to the next line or sentence/clue – solve it – –top-down. Don’t force anything. It will ALL fall neatly into place.”

    Everyone who has tried it your way has failed. And everyone who continues to try to solve it this way will fail. The ones who have solved the first two clues (or even 3 or 4 by now) have figured out Forrest’s system. If you use your imagination, perhaps you will see it too.

    • I looked up the meanings of Consecutive and contiguous, and here is what I found:

      adjective: contiguous
      1. sharing a common border; touching.
      “the 48 contiguous states”
      synonyms: adjacent, neighboring, adjoining, bordering, next-door; More
      abutting, connecting, touching, in contact, proximate
      “the contiguous Gulf states”
      o next or together in sequence.
      “five hundred contiguous dictionary entries”

      adjective: consecutive
      1. following continuously.
      “five consecutive months of serious decline”
      synonyms: successive, succeeding, following, in succession, running, in a row, one after the other, back-to-back, continuous, straight, uninterrupted
      “share prices fell for three consecutive days”
      antonyms: nonconsecutive

      o in unbroken or logical sequence

      I fail to see a discernable difference.How can the clues be contiguous (touching.,adjacent, neighboring, adjoining, bordering,) and not be consecutive (successive, succeeding, following, in succession, running, in a row, one after the other, back-to-back, continuous, straight, uninterrupted )

      Please explain the difference. Thanks JDA

      • JDA: I have a perfect example for you:

        8, 5, 4, 9, 1, 7, 6, 3, 2, 0

        These numbers are continguous. But they aren’t consecutive. (Or are they???)

        • Zap;

          I cheated – I went to google to get the answer:

          The pattern 8 5 4 9 1 7 6 3 2 0 is an alphabetical pattern in which the numbers, when written out in letters, are listed in alphabetical order. The solution is found by listing the pattern as eight, five, four, nine, one, seven, six, three, two and zero.

          Pretty clever.


        • JDA: So now you appreciate the double relevance of the puzzle. It was my way of illustrating the difference between contiguous and consecutive, but ~also~ in how you can hide something easy in plain site, yet not immediately recognize it. I’m suggesting that Forrest’s poem is similar — information is there, but people don’t see it — and that’s why he said something to the effect that the poem is challenging, so the treasure may be located by the one who can best adjust.

          • Again, Zap;

            I wish you the very best. I hope that you find all that you seek.

            Some have said, the best place to hide something, is to hide it in plain sight.

            I will not go so far as to say that I believe that the TC is hidden in plain sight, but I will say that the clues that get you there are.

            It is all in the poem, in the bookS and in a darn good map.

            P.S. a GOOD dictionary and Google, and Google Earth helps.


          • Stonerolledaway,

            Not that I’m old or anything . . . I just remember seeing it wrote on a wall somewhere . . .

        • Actually both words can be applied but in different ways………Such as the poem can be read consecutive order and directions applied in that manner.

          But the clues found are contiguous……..

          • Good one into. I was thinking how easy it is to be confused. I.E. If I use the word clue. Am I talking about the poem that everybody can see or what I may have deciphered out of it?
            Both valid interpretations of the word clue.

          • Into,
            I believe there is one line most are putting the cart before the horse, “put in below the home of Brown”. This line is telling which “canyon down” to take.
            Okay, the way I see it there are 3 canyons down from WWWH and Forrest is like pointing his finger and saying “Put” yourself “in” that canyon down, the one below HOB. Then you start the canyon down quest.
            Just some food for thought. Bur

      • Contiguous/consecutive … like a string of pearls or monkey-bread?

        I imagine collectors of big and diverse collections must have developed great organizing, filing, labeling skills. Maybe Lil Forrest picked-up early on Ora Mae’s complaint about organization & her no-name cigarettes. Or maybe Mr. Fenn was telling telling us something early-on.

        • OS –

          The organization skills this has taken is monstrous………At times I had to stop. think, and re-do things. I have now been thru six reams of white paper and more to come……

      • Wow, no takers on my contiguous number series? How disappointing — I thought someone here would enjoy that puzzle, especially because it beautifully illustrates the differences and similarities of contiguous and consecutive.

        • Ah, what the heck, I’ll take a stab at the number games.
          I mean, I have seen or maybe a better way of saying it, Have come up with the poem’s letters usage… capital letters to be precise… to possibly be used as numbers. I’ll add, commonly known number usage of matching letters to numbers by alphabetical order… any second grader may see it.
          Buy Zap, as Into whispered “they don’t know who to apply it…” kinda speaks volume to the comment, the book will help the averaged person.
          So IF numbers are in play, wouldn’t they be relatively simple to understand and use, but covered within the poem as “normal”, so not to be easily thought of or discovered? I doubt that the majority would have gotten your example.

          My example of letters to number was;
          count out all the capital A’s in the beginning of each line, which was 5. Then B’s, which was 2. Now given there are no C’s, it zero’s out and eliminated. Then continue through, and you have numbers matching letter counts that are ‘given’ numbers to those letter.
          What I thought that came out was, a set coordinates lacking the first two numbers… using my hoB location I place those first two numbers [ and to “put in below” of ] I had a full set of coordinates.
          A simple, easy, understandable by anyone process… even a child that simply knows their ABC and 123. And using only the poem I might add, as well as being in consecutive order in the poem. And I would argue contiguous as alphabet to counting numbers, and the rest of the clues.

          The difficult part was to just “think” how fenn could have used the entire poem to give all possible, prudent information … no need, like JD explained, to cheat a little and look things up.

          I’m not saying your example doesn’t work the way you explained… I’m asking, is it too difficult for the average Joe?

    • So Zap you don’t believe what he says, only what he writes? In that case they are not in consecutive order either and many any other things you seem to believe in. He has confirmed those statements in other interviews but here are two:

      The clues in consecutive order statement was in an interview with Loren Mills. It’s at 27:11

      Contigious 47:23 at Moby Dickens:

      • Hi Goofy — I would certainly like to hear that interview to get the context of when he used the word contiguous, but when I try that Lorene Mills interview link right now it fails to connect.

          • Hi Goofy, the Moby Dickens interview link works fine, but the other one gives me this:

            The connection has timed out

            The server at reportfromsantafe.com is taking too long to respond.

            The site could be temporarily unavailable or too busy. Try again in a few moments.
            If you are unable to load any pages, check your computer’s network connection.
            If your computer or network is protected by a firewall or proxy, make sure that Firefox is permitted to access the Web.

            So it’s probably a firewall issue on my work computer. I will try it on my cellphone.

      • Goofy sorry bout blowing up on you about your comment. I don’t respond well to insults (especially in public), and it brought out my father in me. I appreciate the job you do here trying to keep this a peaceful blog.

        • No problem Iron, and thanks. Just trying to keep it between the curbs without too much blood. 🙂 Folks get emotionally tied to their solutions and the chase so there’s going to be some friction……

        • Thanks, mensan_fennsan, but I had no problem with that link. It’s the other one that I can’t connect to from work. I’m sure Goofy is correct that he has said “consecutive” at one point or another, but I need to hear it in context (or see a transcript).

    • Zap;

      You also say: “Everyone who has tried it your way has failed. And everyone who continues to try to solve it this way will fail. The ones who have solved the first two clues (or even 3 or 4 by now) have figured out Forrest’s system. If you use your imagination, perhaps you will see it too.”

      Since I have not made my final search yet, I do not see how you can say that “Everyone who has tried it your way has failed.” Pretty brash of you, to say the least.

      I HAVE used LOTS of imagination, just so that you know. YOU do not hold the patent on that commodity. Being sure of yourself and your solve is one thing, being arrogant is quite another – Just my 74 years of experience talking.


        • JD: I haven’t tried it my way … yet. Because I’m smart enough not to head to a location without a complete solution. Just because I haven’t solved all 9 clues doesn’t mean I haven’t solved the first 4 or 5.

          • If you have not tried it your way, and proven it correct, Why are you so condescending to those of us who are willing to try it in a way other than yours? Just sayin’ JDA

          • Zap,

            The consecutive order and clues are contiguous has been around for eons. If I’m correct [ and Goofy gave one example ] the Consecutive order comment was 1st, from early 2013, and stated by fenn personally a few different times. As well as contiguous.

            While I’m not a big believer in research of everything under the sun… the ‘after the fact’ comments / Q&A’s fenn has made, are Gold itself for ‘thinking’. Still debatable if they hold clues [ I don’t think so ] but informative to help us think.

            Have you ever considered why the 8.25 66,000 link comment made so long ago, to the more recent one that fenn added much later ” ..north of the northern limits of Santa Fe, New Mexico.” was done?

            Fenn is very patient when adding information… many time we think one thing and fenn never will tell us we are wrong or right. Contiguous imo, was one of those gold pieces of information… the poem might be connected in such a way The places the clues refer to “work” as one. And not so much individual places walk-able on a map

            So how does consecutive and contiguous work in that manor?

          • Seeker — I have an answer for you on the 66,000 links. I’ve shared this before with Dal. 66,000 links is 8.25 miles. But 8.25 miles is exactly 43560 feet. Is it a coincidence that 43560 SQUARE feet is one acre? I doubt it. I think Forrest was being funny: a wise acre.

          • I have to tell ya Zaphod… If Forrest meant all that from a links description, then he is far more intelligent than I gave him credit for. Which means I’m a lot less smarter than I gave myself credit for.

          • Zap,

            The acreage has been talked about [ long ago, than more recent ] But I have always wonder if some kind of math or calculating is involved. There was a “Forrest gets mail” post about a woman who sent fenn her solve or information about it… his answer at the time seem to make fun of the e-mail, but it stated [ paraphrasing ] here’s someone doing the math.

            I also think that it is possible that all the clues may be contained within an acreage footage location [ not so much a square lot design ] … it’s not a popular thought, kinda rules out those oversize, miles long canyon… but I still think about it, especially when fenn stated he holds the location in High Regards ~ Respect.

        • Zap, the full comment… the first section is calculated from the comment.

          100 links = 1 chain
          66,000 links = 660 chains (66,000 ÷ 100)
          1 chain = 66 feet
          660 chains = 43560 feet (660 x 66) = 8.25 miles

          Here is Fenn’s complete comment:

          Since Richard mentioned the olden days lets harken to 1620 when universal land measures first became law in England and America. As you rode your horse into town you had to pass 80 telephone poles in order to reach a mile because they were 1 chain apart, or 66 feet. And each chain had 100 links, if you wanted to break it down further. Road rights-of-way also were 1 chain wide. And 80 square chains made a square mile, or 640 acres – and that was 1 section of land.

          But if you’d rather count fence posts you had to pass 320 in order to reach a mile because they were a rod apart, or 16.5 feet. And since everyone knew that an acre was 10 square chains (43,560 square feet) it was easy to tell how many acres were in your neighbors farm.

          Some aspects of those measures are still in use today in the horse racing business because a furlong is 10 chains in length, or 660 feet. You should feel smarter now because that’s so easy.

          If you want to apply those important figures into the thrill of the chase I will give you an additional clue. The Treasure chest full of gold and precious jewels is more than 66,000 links north of Santa Fe.

          “If you want to apply those important figures to the chase…”

          Did fenn give us actual figures we “need” to know, or could it be a system needed to be “use”, or just simply saying… we have work to do to find the location? Math or Calculating might be involved.

          I give an example I gave many moons ago about how “tarry scant” might work… I can hear some of the old timer laughing already…
          Tarry for the founder of Tarry Point and scant for a version of that math as ‘9 point circle. Yep, there were the days when I sat and did research…lol
          Oh, 9 point circle was implied by a person called Dorothy Brown. lol, for those folks who enjoyed the wizard of oz connection. Ah! the good old days.

          Anyways, I still think calculating may be involved, to be “precise”

      • Dear JDA,

        “Since I have not made my final search yet, I do not see how you can say that “Everyone who has tried it your way has failed.” Pretty brash of you, to say the least.”

        Is it brash to point out the obvious? I know it doesn’t seem like it to you, but I’m honestly trying to help you. But people get so married and in love with their solutions that they are incapable of entertaining alternative ideas, and even become irrationally defensive.

        “I HAVE used LOTS of imagination, just so that you know.”

        I have no doubt that you have. I can use my imagination and come up with alternate solutions in all four states. But they would all require a leap of faith, or information not found in the poem for them to work.

        “Being sure of yourself and your solve is one thing, being arrogant is quite another – Just my 74 years of experience talking.”

        I apologize if my frustration to communicate comes across as arrogance. Some day when this thing gets solved, I hope you are able to go back and read some of the things I’ve written and see the hints and nudges in the right direction I was trying to give people.

        • And I too hope that “Some day when this thing gets solved, I hope you are able to go back and read some of the things I’ve written and see the hints and nudges in the right direction I was trying to give people.”…people like you Zap!

          We each believe in our solve. YEA for US!


          • Hey JDA
            I believe in mine and have non for 3 years. My wife retires Sept. 30th and we are coming back. I will make it happen one way or another. Best part is I also believe in yours and that’s scares me.
            I’m having a problem and need some help if possible. Where did the comment come from about a 30,000 year old Clovis Double bladed ax in the vicinity of the TC come from?????
            Be safe and good luck

        • Zap;

          Thank you very much for your last post. The tone was gracious, and I thank you for that.

          I hope that my posts have not had many barbs sticking out, and pointed in your direction.

          Solves are like our children, we tend to protect them, to the death if necessary.

          No matter how ugly they may be, they are our creations, and we shall love them ’til the ends of time, or until they are either proven correct, or false.

          I hope that you find all that you seek Zap – and TRY to STAY SAFE JDA

          • JDA — thanks for your follow-up. I do hope you know that I’m not trying to be antagonistic. I know you love your general spot (otherwise you wouldn’t have been there so often) and so you will keep hammering away at it until you either find the chest, or feel that you have exhausted all possibilities (though it seems to me the latter could take you years). Until one of those things happens, your mind is probably not going to be very receptive to ideas that are out of your box and comfort zone. That’s just human nature, and I can’t fault you for that. Best of luck!

  8. Possibly….but hunches I HAVE played and proven wise in my interpretations. One should not b so hasty in rejecting the “what ifs”…

    • Jason ,

      That gave me a big laugh !

      Don’t let that stop you , I’ve found out that this sure ain’t no place for the meek !

      Sometimes you just gotta come in swingin’ .

          • Thank you I will keep all up to date. At this time I do not feel comfortable giving up my solve before having a chance to search it for ourselves. I may be a new searcher and not trying to sound arrogant, like most I am highly confident in our solve. Either or will be a great time searching and that’s what it’s all about.

        • hey Jason
          Great name, my son’s name and he always got my back… Are you in the same state as JDA? I like that man, he has worked his — to the bone but I like how he keeps his faith in his solve. JDA and I have talked back and forth since he started. Very knowledgeable man. I personally have been on this for a “few” years and now I have finally narrowed it down ( in my solve ) to roughly 200sqft. and since my wife is finally retiring on the 30th we will be able to go spend maximum quality time with our BOTG. No more hurry hurry we have to leave I have to work on Monday. LOL
          Anyway , best of luck on your search be safe and have a GPS locator with you…

          • Timothy;

            Thanks for the kind words.

            Good luck to you and your wife when she retires soon.

            October 2nd will not come too soon for me. MAYBE my last search for the year. Hope it is the last search because I have found IT! Only time will tell.

            You and your wife be careful out there, and TRY to STAY SAFE. JDA

          • I am not sure, I do not know where JD lives, I reside in southern Idaho.
            JD whereabouts are you going to be at on the 2nd I go to my search area on the 1st.

          • Jason;

            I live in Pocatello. I search in Wyoming, not in YNP. I do not disclose more than that.

            contact me at SculptorJDA at aol dot com if you like. JDA

        • into ,

          I did indeed.

          Now, just for fun, go check out the cover of ” Free Four” by Pink Floyd and see if you can tell if that’s Tarzan or just a running man in a tree.

          Be sure to read the lyrics for both sides of the single.

          • Thank you Roll…………

            I loved it……. Lots of things that can be applied here,,,,,,,,,,,Welcome aboard is one for me to treasure.. 🙂

            Didn’t see what you mentioned about the cover – but abstract art is not my thing.

        • I like “Indulgence” better… interestingly enough, the origin of meek is meoc, meaning indulgent. Meek in the sense of power under control, or trained to be obedient.

    • Nah, just a robust debate. Could save someone a lot of money and time from looking in rabbit holes. Then again, maybe he put it in a rabbit hole. 🙂 I do find it odd how many can just ignore what he has said.

      • Ha, ha, Goofy! You are appreciated! 🙂

        It is not so odd considering many years ago a guy offered us a treasure worth a lot more than a few million dollars and ever since many just ignore what he said.

      • Goofy, It’s that 85-15% thing, and the ‘not all the truth’ thing, and the edges and aberrations stuff, plus knowing that conventional rules are flexible in wit-matches. Open mindedness is not a bad position. Its just harder to manage, and like WW said, “Do I contradict myself? Well then, I contradict myself.” I was surprised when FF didn’t use that one in his game.

        • Well OS, I’ve given that a lot of thought over the years. He has addressed that on a few occasions: not misleading, no subterfuge, straight forward, etc.

          He said in one of the interviews he would tell the interviewer exactly where it’s at. His answer was it’s in the Rocky Mountains north of Santa Fe and south of Canada between the elevations of 5,000 and 10,200 feet. The subjective word here is “exactly”. Considering the whole world that’s a precise description. On the other hand a puddle looks like an ocean to an ant. So perspective seems to have a lot to do with things and could be why so many are bypassing the chest.

          I think Fenn tells the truth. If you want to ignore what he has said that’s up to you. But if someone comes on here saying he’s a liar it will get them nuked. If he is lying about anything concerning the chase he could be lying about everything concerning the chase and there’s no need to waste our time looking for it.

          One could make a case that some of the things he has said seem contradictory. He has come out to clear the air and level the field when he thought some of the information he has given out is being misinterpreted or not everyone had it; WWWH is not a dam, the pinions in the New Mexico video, etc.

          So I think he has told us the truth. We are obviously not understanding what he is saying (we don’t have the chest) or are not looking at it from the correct perspective. An example would be his special place. What makes a place special to me may not be what a special place is to Fenn. There are many reasons why a place could be special.

          • A place fenn holds with respect and high regards… but also made a claim, it was the most atrocious thing he has done and if sorry he could go back tomorrow and get it.

            Lol… still try to figure those to comments and how they apply to the special spot.

          • I don’t want to argue with you Goofy, It’s not as important to me as it seems to be to you, and you and I have been here before. Your adherence to an absolute in the face of dubious, even contradictory, evidence is…. well, religious. I doubt any man lives up to the standard you attribute to Mr. Fenn. I shrug and accept that there are literary liberties, (just like in politics and advertising) that serve a generalized truth, but which in a specific, could rise to a courtroom-level lie. Peace, brother.

          • Well OS, I do think it is probably one of the more important decisions a searcher has to make…….Apparently you think the chest could be in a Utah cemetery, below 5000 feet, and under an outhouse. If you are correct then we are wasting our time, the chest could be anywhere; if it is anywhere.

            Anyone that has been around here for any amount of time knows I don’t mind calling anyone out, including Fenn. So I don’t think anyone would call me a fanboy. Arguing about whether Fenn is lying or not is a complete waste of our time.

            I can’t imagine why you are looking but good hunting to you.

          • I remember watching with my wife when ff said the treasure chest wasn’t in Utah or Idaho. Dismayed, I turned to my wife and tried to explain why one must listen thoughtfully to what ff says and to possibly what he doesn’t say. I claimed he never said Indulgence wasn’t above, on or under either of those states. Perhaps this is absolutely ruled-out by his other statement(s) and just wishful thinking on my part. I am a bit biased and hopeful his special place is near one of my many “in” in Utah.

          • Jake, to your question if I thought Indulgence is “in” Utah I say scant chance – mostly a whimsical folly of mine for the reason I mentioned. When I first read TTOTC, something in the Important Literature chapter struck me as odd and was the spark for me to give serious thought about ff and his poem. Then and now, I think much about the area where Wyoming, Utah and Colorado are in close proximity to one another. Not really anything new from me that other searchers haven’t previously thought of and posted about. Perhaps my folly is dwelling too much on the book if all one needs is the poem and a good map. I just tried to convey that I give serious attention and thought to each word in the poem and also to what ff says. He never said Indulgence was buried, yet he never said it wasn’t buried. He said it wasn’t in Utah, but did he say it wasn’t on or under Utah? At this moment, I have no confidence in my solution. Perhaps I dwell and overthink too much.

          • If I were you kid, I would stick with the highlight area on the map of the four states in the book TFTW.
            You can look anywhere you want or think where you want but I would rethink your thinking.
            You have an advantage being so close to the 4 states that may do not.

            It’s good to analyze things he said but I don’t think the resting spot is under, over or in Utah or any of the states he ruled out.

          • Oooo, a turn for the worse. I read somewhere that ‘scarcasm is the ploy of the uninformed”, so I can’t let such about me go uncorrected.

            You said: “I THINK FENN TELLS THE TRUTH, and IF SOMEONE COMES ON HERE SAYING HE IS A LIAR IT WILL GET THEM NUKED.” You wield your power boldly, Goofy. It’s a beauty to behold in this world of artists and lawyers.

            Then you extended to the extreme: “IF HE IS LYING ABOUT ANYTHING… HE COULD BE LYING ABOUT EVERYTHING”. So true, and the ‘EVERYTHING’ is within the prerogative of the players to examine and judge for themselves…. that’s the game.

            Here’s where you go off the rails, you say: “APPARENTLY YOU (that’s me) THINK THE CHEST COULD BE IN A UTAH CEMETERY, BELOW 5000’, AND UNDER AN OUTHOUSE.” Well yes, I could think that. But I don’t. Please don’t speak for me, the words might get attributed to me.

            And you revert to what you truly do know: “I CAN’T IMAGINE WHY YOU ARE LOOKING”. Congrats.

            If you had the good luck to see the Springsteen interview on the Colbert show last night, you heard these words “THAT’S WHAT ARTISTS DO, THEY LIE IN THE SERVICE TO THE TRUTH” and “THE MAGIC IS REAL”. And that was my original point.

            Peace out. OS2

          • To me, I think of atrocious as outrageous, meaning very bold (having a strong and vivid appearance) or unusual, as well as eye-catching = immediately appealing. The place is fascinating and immediately appealing in many ways.

          • Jake,
            Interesting you say “I would stick with the highlight area on the map of the four states in the book TFTW.”

            “Q&A in part…Can a little girl in India, who speaks good English, but only has your poem and a map of the US Rocky Mountains, work out where the treasure is? And would she be confident as she solves each clue, or only confident when she has solved them all?

            I wish I had another treasure to hide in the Appalachians. The little girl in India cannot get closer than the first two clues. There are many disabled people who are deeply into maps and geography, and they are having a lot of fun.”

            We all have the poem, we’ve seen the map fenn supplied in the book tftw, we have been told that the “chest” is to be found in this highlighted area [ that is the only fact we know of about the map, it’s the location of the chest resides within, nothing about the clues]… yet, being that this map IS of the US RM’s… it doesn’t seem to help us find it, even with the poem. So what kinda of map is fenn referring to?

            I add to what I said; only fact… the location of the chest within. There is another fact, that Canada was eliminated from where the “chest” could be at. So with that said. Could a map of the entire RM’s range be needed? Are we relying on the map from the book tftw, to also hold the area[s] of where the all clues might refer to?

            My example of this thought was, the entire RM range to be known of its watershed, and how the poem might lead ” … that is follow precisely, will ‘lead’ to the end…”
            Using the word ‘follow’ usage as leading and not stomping.

          • Seeker: “it doesn’t seem to help us find it” (tftw map)
            Do you want Forrest to put an X on the map for you.
            Hasn’t he done enough?
            Your sounding like my mother that says “he should just give it to someone”.
            We need this map to get down to 4 states & is better than 2 countries & many more states. Correct?

            “Could a map of the entire RM’s range be needed?”

            What I notice you do Seeker is when someone narrows down the area where they should not be looking, you poke in & widen the area without fact.

            Canada is excluded……

            If you want to use a map of all the Rocky’s, then be my guest.

            You can follow thoughts, ideas, physical movements or my mom or kidU.

            I am trying to help a person that thinks the treasure may be under Utah & you can dig a canyon from the Maple Leaf to the US & find the watershed is going dry.
            What maps are we going to look at next?
            How about a world map?

            Oh, the first clue is in Russia or maybe China & is really an idea or thought or maybe we have to do something like take a jet back to the 4 states LOL.

          • Gezzus Jake,

            I mention, with an example of a thought, add is a couple of facts, and a Q&A for discussion about the map supplied to all of the searchers, and to your comment I quoted, that got my thought process going…
            and you respond like a 12 years having a hissy fit that another blogger interrupted you correcting someone.

            You do realized this is an open forum, so when something is being talked about, it’s kinda allowed / expected to get responses from other bloggers?

            Next time, add a disclaimer that you are having a private chat with one particular blogger only, if you don’t want other to respond with suggestion of something different than your own ~ on an open forum.

            Ya want to know what I have seen… folks who take serious offense when they think their brilliant solve is being question as anything else, other than perfection… it’s completely laughable, this type attitude.

          • Well Seeker, I was only trying to spell out the obvious & I know some here including myself are stuck on things from the past but there is lots of new info we can use & move on.

            Anyone can chime in on what I have to say considering it is just speculation.

            To be honest with you, I have had enough of India girl. We beat this up from many different angles & we can’t come to a conclusion. Now, maybe some think this statement holds a hint, but personally I think it’s nothing more than entertainment.

            Thank you for the 12 yr old comment, that is a compliment from the chase & my actual mental coming of age is around 16 & hope it doesn’t change.

            I will add that the map for the clues could be in Canada or other countries but I would not put a high percentage on it.
            The clues could also be thoughts or ideas but not all of them.
            Clues could also be in other states but the TC is in one of the 4.

            I don’t want to spread this out to thin considering the areas in his books don’t seem to qualify these far away places as hints to me.

            Seeing you mentioned attitude, do you think the attitude of the treasure has changed in 6 years?

          • Jake,
            See how easy that was…
            I mentioned the Q&A because; it was one questions that mentioned “a map” that only consisted of the four stated involving the “US RM’s” scenario [ as does the map in the TFTW… and the possibility of a larger map of the range might be something to consider… since the poem and a US version only of the RM’s ‘seemed’ to not be enough. Of course there are some other possible explanation. But in conversation you mentioned the TFTW map, which got my thought process going.

            As far as the book is concerned, there is mention of other countries, but I too doubt those far distance countries have any location value to a clue other than a subtle ‘maybe’ to the chapter story context itself.

            You asked; “Seeing you mentioned attitude, do you think the attitude of the treasure has changed in 6 years?”

            I’m not sure what you mean by “attitude of the treasure” means, but I’m gonna go with a typo of ‘hunt’ might have been left out… and to that… yes.
            The more time goes on, the more some get over confident to the point they dismiss any other thought. Maybe because of all the time they placed into the chase they feel, if someone entertains another avenue, that idea attack all their seemingly hard work… even if it has a possibility of being wrong, they defend with overzealous attitude to anything said to its contrary as if a personal attack is being placed.

            From day one; I have only attempted this challenge for the solve myself… if capable to search and find fenn’s trove… it would simple be a prize, a very nice prize… but it the challenge of the solve that keeps me here at all.

          • Nothing is easy in this life Seeker,
            You must admit that whatever book, statement, map, video that he has provided is never enough for us.

            I tend to think he likes this game & likes to see our reactions to everything he has put out there but I also like to think it is easier than most of us think.

            Within 200′ & not knowing gets him a rise & also gets the searchers thinking what went wrong.

            I will disagree with you that searchers get more confident the more solves they have (lack of better words).
            With my solves, my confidence has been going down to a more realistic level of possible failure & that’s why I did not brag about me finding anything before my last trip.

            The attitude of beginners seems to be very overconfident & the attitude of lifers seems to more conservative & thinking more outside the box & this is human nature when you have not solved the quest trying to do it longer.
            Unlike others, I do not see an attack on my solve as like attacking my child.
            It’s just a thought in your mind that doesn’t have any life & feeling.

            Back to the “atrocious” statement.
            This statement rings in my ears in a way that he did something devious & couldn’t believe he did it.
            As to say the treasure is buried or under water…..

            Seeing I mentioned China earlier, I have some food to attend to.

    • Seeker ,

      There are many alternative words for atrocious, such as “bold”.

      My favorite is ” mischievous”.

      • RT,
        That’s what so perplexing.
        Many words could have been used that are similar, and a little less brutal in nature, but he decided atrocious would be it.
        This is a place he hold with respect, in high regards and special ~ obviously ~ so special he would leave a chest full of gold for all to seek and even be his final resting place. why would he be sorry at all later?

        Why would the act of hiding the chest there be any of those meaning of atrocious. Maybe I’m looking in to it too much, but it sure raises an eyebrow. I have one thought, but I tend to hope it’s not what I think. Not that it would be a bad thing, just strange in my book.

        • Seeker ,

          I think it is just another one of those “what I meant to say was . . .” that f is so fond of.

          It also fits with ” It doesn’t matter what words I use as long as the reader understands what I mean”.

          f is a very crafty fellow. He knows how to say one thing and make us automatically think of the first thing that pops into our heads. While what he “meant” to say was something that we won’t recognize without thinking really hard about it.

          He tells us over and over that he is 13 years old in his mind. That tells me that there are times we have to ask ourselves – what would a 13 year old say here?

          I’m constantly lecturing my grandkids about the importance of being truthful, because they are constantly saying things like “that’s not what I meant” and “no, that’s not what I said, what I said was . . .”, while I stand there knowing exactly what it was they said. But, in their minds, they said something totally different than what I actually heard.

          A lot of it is them just pushing the limits to see how far they can go but, a lot of it is also a difference in perception of what was actually said.

          Classic Fenn, if you ask me.

    • B Heston;

      Can you be more specific? How am I over complicating the attempt to understand? I will be happy to respond, but the assertion is pretty vague.

      I have responded to you only once, and that was to tell you that Forrest says not to rely on hunches. – Not complicated.

      Zap and I have had a nice conversation on consecutive and contiguous – was that too complicated?

      Help me out there guy. I too would like to understand.


      • JDA… I believe individuals are complicating the solution by over thinking where the clues are meant to lead. It’s much simpler,sir. A child’s mind wouldn’t dwell on some of the complexities I read,even for a 13 yr old. And as I stated, HUNCHES played as much a role as research did in my solve which in my BELIEF fits Mr. Fenn poem and the trail of crumbs left in his book TTOTC, as snuggly as F’s cowboy hat fits his head. I believe he speaks in illusive generalizations about subjects. If you recall from his book, his father told him you should always tell the truth, but you should not always tell ALL the truth. Take it for what it’s worth, but at this point we must assume anyone may b correct until Fenn’s Rainbow is found.

        • One of the wonders of this chase is that we each have our own perspective in how to solve the puzzle.

          I wish you well. If it were as simple as you say it is, I wonder that it has not been found by now.

          Play your hunches – even though Forrest has advised against it. That is your choice.

          Who knows? You may be right in how you think.

          Again, good luck. JDA

          • Lol…how odd that you wish me luck but easily dismiss my beliefs and/or hunches based on “assumptions” from Fenns statements.Perhaps if u knew and understood how i came to my conclusions youd see what i mean, especially if they were correct. But as my solve stands unproven, feel welcome in your beliefs that im walking the wrong path.Quoting his book…Imagination is more important than knowlege..(yes im aware of his spelling). Ones intellect should not eclipse the imagination in the realm of possibilities and what ifs. If i seemed to imply that the solution is simple, then what i said was misinterpreted. A simpler understanding of veiled clues may b the correct way to the solution. No disrespect to Mr. Fenn, but perhaps some things that he says pertaining to “clues” on the cheat sheet shouldnt be taken as gospel. By his own admission he has used embellishment in his book. Whos to say if not elsewhere? While i may b a greenhorn on this adventure having only been in it scant 2 mos., ive absorbed lots of info. And like everyone, ive spent countless time spinning this poem in my head to unlock its hidden meanings. Am I right? Who knows. Am I confident? YES!

  9. I think that all searchers involved in the Chase make valid points and also have valid approaches to the solve. None of us, this writer included, can say we really have anything concretely nailed down, as no one has the chest.

    We should always listen to each other as we can gain a little knowledge maybe, a different approach, some creativity, etc. I think too often we are critical of each others approaches or solves, which really isn’t fair, as all of us are devoting are valuable time to this effort.

    For example: Forrest made a statement on the New Mexico Tourism add about being able to smell Pine or Pinyon if he were standing where the chest resides. Well Pinyon is a type of pine, and if he could possibly smell a Pinyon then he could definitely not be in Montana or Wyoming, as there is no Pinyon pine in either State. However, IMO, if you listen to the wording, like all things Fenn, it is subjective to a degree. So I shouldn’t go around saying ” Hey you fools…don’t waste your time in Montana or Wyoming.”

    I believe we all need to respect each others right to an opinion and interpretation of the information.

    Keep searching and live well!


    • TSHB ,

      With all due respect, there is more than just one species of pinyon. There is also pinyon – juniper, as well as others.

      Feel free to correct me if I’m wrong but, I don’t believe f said “pinyon-pine”, or did he ?

      There are species of pinyon in both Montana and Wyoming.

      • RT
        There are tons of species of pine. Pinyon, a particular type of pine that gives us the actual pine nut or pignoli in Italian and pinyon nut in Spanish is predominantly in New Mexico, Utah, Arizona and Colorado.
        In regards to F’s comment, it came from the New Mexico Board of Tourism video they did regarding the Chase.
        Please keep in mind I was using that as an example in the context of my original statement. I wasn’t trying to make anything more than a point.

    • Stay strong B. Heston. An ounce of confidence is worth much more than a pound of unproven criticism in this Chase.

      I’d get laughed right off of here if everyone knew how simple my solve turned out to be after looking at it in hindsight.

      Personally, I find Indians chasing chickens to be very entertaining.

      Good luck to ya.

    • I dont have it, but can tell you (for a fact), there is NOTHING said by Forrest that has not been said before. Mayber Cynthia can give you the link.

  10. There is a place I know in the Rocky Mountains where there was a generations old legend about where the last warm waters were. In winter, a small amount of steam still rises from this specific place but hardly enough to notice. A couple of decades ago there was a sign placed near this place which talked about the legend and the name given to this place. Today a newer sign exists there which talks about a different reason for the legendary name. Changing the wording on this sign seems to draw attention away from this place and toward the other more prolific warm waters in the area. In my opinion this was meant to protect the sanctity of this small place in the minds of some who have some continuing authority in the area. Today the term “warm waters” is a common usage term associated with certain avid fishing environments. It is probable that some fishermen became aware of this area because of it’s world class trophy fishing as well as it’s name which now seems to vaguely refer to “warm waters” if the new interpretation is accepted and the literal interpretation is ignored. Other places and streams in the area also have names referring to warm waters. The place is NOT in Yellowstone NP.

    I do not believe that the TC is placed any of the warm waters or submerged for long periods.

  11. On my final, final push. I’ve kept very quiet for the past couple of months as I didn’t want to jinx anything, or come across the wrong way. If this doesn’t work out, Dal will be getting a very long and very detailed report, which hopefully will be of some value to others..

    Back in the late spring I found what I consider to be the blaze. I thought that the resting place would be nearby, but I was wrong. So I went back to the poem (I’m one of those irritating purists, although I take on board any other useful snippets I come across), and reworked the ending.

    This week I arrived in the general location and started to search the few sets of coordinates I had teased from the poem (more than one as there were marginally different combinations possible). My first location was too difficult for an eighty-year-old, and a few others were too much out in the open (all are very close to passers-by). The final location was seemingly impossible at first glance, and I ignored it for a day. But the coordinates were compelling for a host of reasons that will become clear if I’m successful.

    On the second day, I found a way in – the only one that I can ascertain, and away from prying eyes. It is not an inspiring spot on its own, although surrounded by great majesty and much wildlife (Moose seem to claim the place as their own). However, it speaks to the poem’s circularity and metaphor. Ready to dismiss the location as about the most unlikely candidate, I glanced down into some water to see a partially submerged hardwood tree trunk, and sitting atop was a single, finely marbled rock of about eight or nine inches square(ish). Now bear in mind that there is hardly a stone within fifty yards of this place, and the trees are scrubby types that seem to rot as you look at them. It did not get there by accident, and the only creatures likely to enter (judging by the tracks) are animals seeking water.

    From my GPS, it was within about fifteen feet of the specific coordinates. So why not just go and check the spot? It’s not that simple! A long time ago, I remember Forrest said something to the effect that the final part of the journey will not be a walk in the park (my metaphor). This is marshland – a real bog, and covered in reeds, tall grasses, and channels of knee-deep, fairly stagnant water; something hidden here could remain undetected for 1000 years or more. There’s no way to see into the mud or the reeds.Now I know why FF didn’t want to say whether the chest was hidden or buried!

    I waded into the water and checked all around the log, sinking into in the slimy and slippery primordial swamp! I was heading for a ducking, which I could ill afford as I have very little with me in the way of spare clothes. However, if I was a fisherman, I’d know what to do, because I’d have the right gear with me.

    Tomorrow, I rent a drysuit.

    Right or wrong, I fly out on Monday, and out of the Chase forever. I’ve given it nearly five years, and I can do no more. Believe me, I didn’t expect the poem to lead me to such a spot on my final attempt- I was crestfallen when I realized what had to be done to check it out properly. I’m sure most of you will consider it folly to even entertain such a possibility, but what if…?

    I’m not relishing the prospect of going back into that filthy hole, but I’ve come this far… I also need to keep reminding myself that it is both a forest and a fen, and the whole poem, right down to the last location detail is all about the person behind it.

    Brave and in the wood indeed!

    • The places the poem leads us- – – – Good luck tomorrow.

      Please be safe. We do not want some archeologist digging up your bones in a thousand years from the bog.

      And they ponder – why the dry suit in the mountains – what must he have been looking for? Maybe he too was an archeologist…hummmm’


        • Vox Pox
          You have been a great inter to me just as other have but I am very specific on who I continue to speak with and you are up there with the best of the best. I have been at it for 3 years now and besides my finances and distance to the 4 states I have also considered this to be our possible last trip but then I just can’t give up. I was trained never to give up fight to my last breath so I guess I will.
          As JDA and Sandy said please be very careful I do not want to hear that we have lost you.
          Best of Luck on your journey,

          • Thank you Timothy, those are very kind words indeed. I wish I could be on here more, but I end up repeating myself too much, which becomes irritating for others.

            I didn’t drown today, but I’m so glad I had the dry suit and boots. I slipped and fell at one point and would have been a stinking pile of ordure for the rest of the day without it. But you know, JDA was right; I got the third degree from the guy at the suppliers – he was like the water sports police! He was very suspicious as to why I wanted the suit.

            I didn’t find the chest today, but it was an extremely useful exercise. I think there is one more leg of the journey (I all reedy – NO!). I have less than 24 hours to see if I can pin it down. It’s unlikely, but you never know…

            Must get back to research now. If I don’t, I’ll be putting the fear of God into the other motel guests, as I scream and shout at Forrest – and I believe he knows why! (Just kidding… maybe.)

    • That’s too funny. My second search attempt led me to a bog covered in reeds – not the same one, I’m sure – but I was wishing I had waders on. Overall I agree with you; follow the poem to where it leads you. The location so revealed may not be anything like what you originally thought.

      Good luck with your search and if this turns out to be your journey’s end, thanks for the stories.

      • Many thanks, Spoon!

        It’s taken me a long time to learn to follow the poem. I choose to believe that, even if you don’t succeed first time, eventually it will reveal its secrets.

        Fen is a bog. Look quickly down references swampy ground. Coming full circle from WWWH to still waters at the end is poetically fulfilling. And Forrest has said that ad-mire is a suitable term, and also that we’ll likely be surprised at where it is. It’s maybe not so far-fetched after all.

          • Quick as in quicksand. It also has another directional meaning that is very important where it first comes into play, IMO.

          • Quick also means, those who are living. Archaic meaning. So is the living searcher looking at the dead?

            But the word is quickly… one of the meanings is speedily, which can mean, speed of light [ synonym of quickly ] So are we looking at light [ sunlight ] alignment. combined with tarry to linger and scant a small amount [ time] to linger a short period of time because the light speedily move beyond in that time?

            Quick for quicksand for swampland is a bit of a stretch… if we did this with more words from the poem we could change many to mean completely different things, than what they are defined as and usable in meaning. But this is totally my opinion.

  12. Looking at all the discussion about clues, here’s my take. Maybe someone will find it useful even though it doesn’t enumerate clues.

    Stanza 1 reveals vital info about both the start and end locations, and it begins with the first few words. In fact, the theme of the poem is laid out here. However, you are also going to need to access the “key” later in the poem so as to be sure you have the right place to start your journey.

    Stanza 2 does not tell you much about where to begin – unless you have the other hints/clues locked down. Once you do, it becomes obvious, IMO. Then it tells you PRECISELY where to put in below HOB, and this info helps to verify WWWH.

    Stanza 3 requires imagination. Once you get the hang of how he’s thinking here, a good map will give you the waypoints. I think zaphod has been referring to this stage recently, and he knows it requires some out-of-the-box thinking, even if it’s straightforward.

    Stanza 4 seems quite nebulous, but if you add in information found elsewhere in the poem, it starts to come together. And I’ll just add: 85/15. I found to my cost, literally, that you can’t take any words in this stanza for granted. There is a lot of wordplay going on here, and imagination is required.

    Stanzas 5 and 6 are absolutely necessary in order to be able to orient yourself successfully. Without these stanzas you could be miles adrift! It’s not at all easy. I’m working on the final step right now, but I’m very hopeful I’ve made a correct interpretation.

    My opinion is only worth as much as the next person’s, but I will say with a great deal of confidence that the big picture is what it’s all about. We’re not talking about a micro-chase, but we are talking about a good dose of humor!

    • Good Luck – I hope that you find all that you seek. Can’t say that I agree with most of what you posted, but good luck anyway – what do I know? NADA JDA

      • Oh I know, JDA. There are almost as many opinions as there are searchers – and the rest are probably lurking with intent!

        I would love to be able to lay it all out for you guys to judge, and one way or the other that will eventually happen. All I will say for now is that there is such interlocking logic to the poem that it’s a marvel to behold without even catching sight of the treasure!

        Good luck to you, too!

          • My GPS puts me in the bog/reeds for the final location, into. The marbled stone is just a few feet away from the spot, I believe – like a pointer, if you will. Of course, it could be pure coincidence, but I have to add in the fact that the stone is at the farthest point you can walk without getting wet, and just before the coordinates. Obviously marvel gaze/marble glaze came to mind. No problem for an angler, this kind of terrain, wouldn’t you say?

          • A marble stone you say ! That sounds very interesting indeed. I know you have put alot of work in this and wish you would just go there a easily find it. My best wishes of success are with you my friend ………

          • Thank you so much, into. If I don’t complete the assignment, I’ll be putting it all out there for someone else to potentially reap the rewards.

            One thing I forgot to add is that the notion of a circular poem whereby you start where water halts, and you end where the same thing happens, is appealing. There are other circularities in the poem that stand out to me, but this is the most tangible. In addition, for a long time I’ve thought that “treasures bold” indicated a basin or low point of some sort.

  13. All…

    FF has said there are many WWWH in the Rockies. How do we pick the one out of the many as THE starting point?

    IMO the full poem tells us how to differentiate between the many WWWH to logically single out the one without needing to guess before we leave our homes on the search.

    I assume the remaining clues need to be interpreted from observations onsite which can’t easily be seen from Google Earth or aerial photos or random hiker photos of the area. One corollary to this rule would depend on valid altitude parameters, and safe accessibility.

    I can envision a real time “Go Pro Live” video broadcast of a searcher (or maybe drone) examining potential clues at each step with the livestreaming searcher community commenting and voting about the best choice of alternatives on a minute by minute basis (group think or group intuition).

    Also…as my climbing instructor always stressed to the students, never rely on vegetation of any kind to anchor a belay or self arrest a fall unless absolutely necessary. In other words, grabbing vegetation is a LAST RESORT and not a good one.

    • mensan_fennsan, I think you make an interesting point about WWWH, but in my opinion there are specific pointers in the poem, rather than needing the whole poem to identify it. Even better, if you apply imagination based on world geography, it gives you a a very good basis from which to begin and to check your results.

      As for the rest, I believe you’d be walking for a very long time if you tried to follow the clues the way you suggest – and you’d need a truckload of batteries for your drones!

      All IMO.

  14. Didn’t Forrest say something along the lines of only the first two clues can be found on a map. All the others you need to be physically searching to find them.

    In that case, it makes sense that wwwh would be the first clue and take it to the canyon down would be the second. Those are both locations able to be seen on a map.

    If the first clue was a general place, like a state, the canyon could not be seen, which is a little far fetched considering the treasure is in the mountains.

    • Travis,
      Fenn, as far as I know, never stated ‘Only the first two clues can be found on a map.’ Not that I have seen… some think it because of the Q&A’s of the little girl from India that blogger have that assumption.
      Here are some answers to Q&A’s and there are many comment about the first two clues, like the Little girl from India scenario etc.

      “No 49, I cannot tell you how many searchers have identified the first clue correctly, but certainly more than several. I cannot imagine anyone finding the treasure without first identifying the starting point, although many seem to be preoccupied with later clues. To me that’s just expensive folly. f ”

      “I know of a few searchers who have been reasonably close to the treasure puttputt, but there is no indication that they knew it. No one has given me the correct solve past the first two clues.f ”

      “Searchers have routinely revealed where they think the treasure was hidden and walked me through the process that took them on that course. That’s how I know a few have identified the first two clues. Although others were at the starting point I think their arrival was an aberration and they were oblivious to its connection with the poem. Playing a hunch is not worth much in the search and those who start out by looking for the blaze, are wasting their time.f ”

      But lets say your hypothesis is correct… What kind of map are we talking about? It seems, one of the US RM’s doesn’t apply. Any ideas?

      I’ll add, ” Searchers have “routinely revealed” were they think…” If many searcher have given fenn their process of a search … it seems to me, the number of searchers at the correct location of the clues is consistently / routinely climbing… if I read that correctly.
      But as far as we know at this point… none of those searcher knew they were, by fenn’s comments, one being in an above answer, “but there is no indication that they knew it.” imo.

      • Seeker…”That’s how I know a few have identified the first two clues. Although others were at the starting point I think their arrival was an aberration and they were oblivious to its connection with the poem.” …

        IMO “others” might mean people who were not aware of the poem or the search at all. Is a person responsible for assumptions that other people make? Take each clue at face value and only alter that clue if there is much reason to not take it at face value. This advice does not mean to ignore prevailing figures of speech or contextual implications IMO.

  15. Zap – you are too clever. Goofy, Seeker, Dal: I suggest a new discussion topic (or however you see fit to organize it) which includes only quoted Forrest comments and statements with a brief citation for authenticity. (Remove all that don’t meet this standard) I know some of you hold a trove of these! His comments narrow the search considerably and I’ve watched many thoughtful searchers spend time, money, and effort (myself included) on searches that are clearly invalidated by something Fenn has said. The “cheat sheet” is out of date and limited. Lets all lend eachother a hand and at the same time dispell some of the misquotes/misinformation.

    • DW,

      I agree, and think it is the rules /policy Dal place at the top of the page… you’ll have to look to make sure.
      But I have to ask, why you included me in with Goofy and Dal?
      I hope you don’t think I am involved with the site, other than a guest like ya’ll… lol, Do you want to give those two guys a stroke! … ME having any say?!!! Be afraid, Be very afraid…

  16. You know who housed some of the best Nikolai Fetchin paintings when F was in the airforce back before he had the gallery? The Air force did. Kinda cool I thought…

    • I just found the old gallery catalog from the USSR exhibit and I can’t out my finger on it but it’s crazy how different the Russian paintings are. He even signs his name different and in different spots on many. I can’t help but wonder if that sort of visual thinking and communicating subtle nuances and placement is what drew F in…and then he did the same thing with a poem instead of paint. I mean ALL those artists he was versed in yet something set Fetchin, Gaspard, Sloane, and Sharp apart. Sure maybe it was simply good timing and access to estate sales with loads of personal info….but if F felt he ‘understood’ them enough to immortalize them in words, he must feel at some level he “gets” them. Probably because he communicates on the same wavelength. Just thinking out loud.

  17. I found treasure!
    Sorry no not the infamous indulgences fenn treasure.
    2 days ago on a home remodel , I was rewiring.
    Behind a empty electrical box, in a hole in the brick wall , there was a crown royal bag that contained 20 silver dollars, 3 platinum bars, 10 collectable coins 5 krugerrand 1 oz gold coins total value approx $14,000.
    It was really exciting, something I’ve dreamed of for the last 22 yrs as an electrician.
    I gave it to the contractor.
    He said the family of the previous home owners told him (before I found it) that there was something hidden there they were looking for.
    Too bad I couldn’t keep but it was fun.

  18. G’day Dal
    After reading about Jennys well deserved nomination, I must confess my loyalty to the unique nature of this website, and all the many weird & wonderful characters (mostly the former) I’ve discovered within its submissions to date.
    (congrats & luck too Jenny btw)

    so, with both hairy feet & bad grammar included, I leap within a suitable ‘odds and ends’ category without too much post hind-pre-foresightedness, and into a quick ditty of my recent US adventure with my brother Rik ..minus any singing or dancing.

    California (Sept 2nd)
    LAX was a welcome mix of spacial terra-firma after a long ‘elbows in’ flight over the Pacific; warm clime, diligent security and Labour Holiday traffic chaos.

    Upon finding that internal airfares were triple the norm, we swiftly collected some semblance of instinct and promptly jumped on the nearest free-bus, to the local car rental shop.

    by fateful chance, this decision made for one of the best road trips ever!
    ..partly by me falling in love with the feminine sat-nav voice, but mostly for my passion of driving endlessly forever, especially on such beautifully smooth roads.
    (I’m from New Zealand)

    A million echoes could go largely unheard within her open vastness, but probably not an AC/DC concert ..well, maybe if their amps were unplugged, but still unlikely.

    this long stretch of earthscape was far too short for me. I envied those long haul truckers as they flew past my puny rental car at speed. (1000 miles per gallon is just dandy, but not as great as having a small house lodged behind your drivers seat, with a turbo-jet engine upfront)
    I then discovered XML radio, so felt some small victory in my tiny Hyundai tent.

    Utah, Bonneville
    the radio became distinctly more lively whilst crossing the border, just as the geography seemed to inevitably burst forth with an unrelenting greenish hue
    – or was it just my lucid imagination after too many desert miles?

    Feeling in great spirits, we proudly recounted stories of Burt Munroes land speed record on his clunky old garage built Indian bike, and set a direct approach to Salt Lake City, Bonneville!
    With pedal to the metal, we imagined speeding forward, almost exceeding 50mph on some stretches of highway with a tail-wind, and firmly instructed our sat-nav (with seductive voice selected by unanimous vote) to yet another distant horizon of Utah.

    – we fondly named her Audrey (the sat-nav, not Utah)

    I was somehow lost in a quiet solitude here, contented with the idea of ambling through prairies of endless wheat and whispered breeze, walking aimlessly and happily forever.. never having to pay another bank fee ever again.
    I found a strange sense of home on IS15 – weird I know, but strange all the same.
    (please attach your psychiatrists emergency contact number here ________ )

    Idaho was a joyous dream that I secretly wish I hadn’t awoken from.
    and Audrey was totally speechless too..! (though her battery had run flat apparently)

    West Yellowstone, Montana
    ..soon shook me from my peaceful reverie, entirely for its vibrancy, openly caring people that offered free bear-spray, sincere hospitality, great food and soberingly priced accommodation.

    This lively town instills a very real verve in any weary traveller, and will slap even the meekest person into a sudden abruptness of what the diversity of Yellowstone Park may dare to present to all those other naive persons ..except me!

    Yellowstone Park, Wyoming
    ..too early the next morning, I felt abruptly slapped by the sudden diversity that YSP dared to present upon my almost functioning personage – I quickly purchased a large coffee with five sugars.

    Her picturesque and gently enticing nature were chaotically punctuated by steaming blasts and fiery geological spurts of instant agony to any living creature that should unwittingly venture within close proximity.
    ..I wisely drove straight past those bits.

    Car parked, and with well worn boots well laced, heart in mouth and my focus doubly engraved (esp. after my geothermal fright) we ventured into the widest fold of Carnelian Creek, fresh sun to our aft, with off-track experience and totally lacking any bear-spray yet feigning fearlessness (I had a very loud plastic whistle fyi), fruitful of our surrounds and brave of step, awareness ingrained, eyes made wide from caffeine, traceless in our path and motionless of intellect, we strove onwards..

    and onwards..
    ..and ever onwards (mostly down through really dense bush to be honest)
    ,,and were virtually successful in finding everything other than large bears or precious metals, but totally victorious in identifying several (probably) unknown species of rare squirrels, blurry photos included!

    and after many long hours (and one ounce shy of a troy ounce) ..we exit to a fading sun, yet totally devoid of any bear claw wounds and/or snake fang perforation marks, or highly toxic infestations of every kind either – ‘Twas a win/win situation on too many levels to humanly count, possibly more than several even..

    amazingly too we were both strangely far from feeling disappointed at being 40lbs lighter ..not just for the joy of our impromptu survival, but more for the chance of chasing a real-life pirate style treasure, esp. in this overly diluted modern world of ours – a major accomplishment in anthrobiology as much as a triumph in self preservation, if I do say so.

    but more enduring for me, was the newly formed bond and memories that I shared with my brother, of that spectacular landscape, and all that had lead us to it.

    ..and simply thanks to the imaginative (yet too vague) Forrest, for supplying a treasure that was actually much lighter to carry back up those miles of (almost) vertical slopes, and back to my beloved Audrey, (who waited patiently btw, while stuck to the windscreen with unflinching dedication) to finally collapse in our economical tent on wheels, and smile at each other with delighted but exhausted glee (mostly the latter)
    and to vow, hand on heart, to never attempt that feat ever in this life-time!!

    ..which of course we did again at first light the very next day, but somewhere slightly more forgiving this time (apart from the massive lightning strikes nearby) but we survived yet again given our wet rubber insulated boots.

    So good onya Dal, for championing this great website, or I may never have considered dipping my toes into your majestic geographical regions ..nor my digital keys into your spare blank pixels.

    and after experiencing such open and friendly people along our quest, I can easily state that any American citizen who choses to chase treasure in my country, is sincerely welcome in my home anytime.
    ( ..but please bring Audrey, she lives in a small blue car in LA – shouldn’t be too hard to find)

    Kindest regards and best of luck to all fellow hunters
    Chris Scott

        • Welcome Chris,

          Love the way you write and the tale of your adventure here.

          Having been to The Ice, in 95 and 96…..I am aware of that airplane ride. After a six month stint, we rented a RV and toured the South Island
          for a month. It was magical and the people we found to be the nicest on the planet..having been asked to dinner in many homes.

          So nice to have you on the blog, and hope you continue to post and have fun with us.

          • Thanks, into (the fray?)

            I am sincerely proud to hear my fellow kiwis, hobbits (and many probable distant third cousins) have made such a positive impression upon your ’95 travels, as to be so astutely remembered, some two decades later.

            I shall diligently continue to post my warped sense of humour, without intent to offend nor confuse (mostly the former & latter) for as long as my sanity should permit.

            (I am entirely convinced my sanity is short-lived)

            I have miraculously avoided a ‘GoofyNuke’ and/or a ‘Dal reprimand’ to date, so will persevere in affectionately teasing those that I (secretly) like the most on this site (and some ‘others’ too, not so secretly liked..)

            I am simply reluctant to post any bad photos, given my uncanny ‘semblance to Quasimodo (minus the hump, cathedral or bells) nor any long-winded explanations, given my equally feeble attempt at a madly insane solve.

            I am quietly adamant that BigPharma are eagerly rubbing their money-greasy hands together, at the prospect of eternally medicating me.

            (I write this, joyfully unmedicated)

            So, aided by the occasional bourbon (or twelve) whilst listening to Eddie Vedders ‘Into the Wild’ soundtrack..

            ..I “Rise up, and find my direction magnetically.”

    • Hi Chris, you guys came all the way from New Zealand?!! Wow! I bet Audrey is waiting for you to come back and hit the roads again. I bet that was the most fun she’s ever had, haha! That was a big adventure going all the way to Yellowstone and I’m glad you did it. It was fun reading your story, thanks.

    • Great story Chris, you should send that in along with some pictures to Dal. It would make a great addition to our searcher’s adventures page.

      On a side note; I think Audrey’s sister lives in my new truck. I didn’t invite her to live with us, she was just there. Our relationship is a work in progress; she got a little testy when I told her to shut up already and pointed my gun at her.

      • Goofy

        ..seems like we have sibling bank balances.

        ..seems like you have Audreys sister captive within your new truck, amidst random gun-pointishness and general skulduggery.

        ..seems like we can arrive at some sorta mutual arrangement.

        I seen ‘nuf western (mostly Benicio Del Toro) movies, to know exactly how this chinese stand-off stuff works amigo..

        [ ..he attempts to whistle that Clint Eastwood tune (from that movie) as he squints menacingly in an almost entirely self-convincing manner]

        Were you to be ‘somehow convinced’ to FedEx her (you-know-whose sister) into the welcome embrace of a much loved van wind-shield..

        then I shall be solemnly obligated to swiftly (and immediately) trade your bank balance squarely for mine, no questions asked!
        (plus postage & taxes)

        [ ..he quietly rushes to his (beloved) van & frantically polishes the wind-shield, on the impossible chance that a FedEx courier might mysteriously appear, due to strict instruction from a severely under-medicated treasure hunter, with a seriously warped sense of humour, that should decide to send a precious parcel, deserved of an exciting new home in a far away land, within a (much loved) vehicle]

        [ ..he naively expects the FedEx driver to be Tom Hanks ]


        • Thanks to you, Mr. Chris Hobbit, all I can see right now is you driving to the mountains with your brother, Tom Hanks, Wilson and Audrey to see Goofy.
          Your fun spirit comes through in the words you write! You have to write a story for us about the thrill of the chase, ok?

          • You’re very welcome Miss (bequeathed to a twelve-toed hobbit) Jeannie,

            ..it just so happens that, as a youngsters, me and Wilson used to kick around together..

            but honestly, I’m still awaiting my mail order (Fed-ex) bride from Goofy.

            (been patiently sitting by the mail-box for nigh on a week now, was desperate for a wee by day two 🙁 )

            – is that too weird, yet desperately romantic?

          • Hi Chris, I was trying to think of something witty to say but I got nothin’! You’ll be waiting by that mailbox for a long time, sorry, I’m already married. Being engaged to a hobbit for a few days was fun, though!
            Isn’t Dal’s blog fun, you can read about people’s adventures and ideas from all over the place. I don’t post much because I’m too chicken. One of the first things I wrote about, a long time ago, was making a big bowl of that cheesey pimento stuff that Forrest likes and have Dal feed it to the deer to get them to spill the beans because they probably knew where to look for the box. So, I guess I figured I bet quit posting before I got myself in trouble because I would probably write silly stuff like that all the time.
            I really love that you guys travelled half way around the world to chase, that tells me you have big adventurous spirits. Then the way you wrote about your trip was so fun! You made it seem fantastic to be driving on the endless roads we have here. You survived the trip with no bear claw wounds and fell in love with Audrey. If anyone is having a bad day just go back and read your story, for sure it will bring a smile! Thanks, Mr. Hobbit!

    • Ya Gotta like this guy, great write-up, rocks to AC/DC, and even an invite to total strangers to visit if in the neighborhood… this is my kinda person. But I was wondering, since you had to leave Audrey behind, can I have her serial number? She sound electrifying.

      • cheers Jake

        more miles than I can easily count on all twelve toes, but a million less than I’d liked to have travelled
        – ‘time o aching time, moments as big as years…’

    • Chris: that is some of the finest prose I’ve read on this site, and it is contributions like yours that make the Home of Dal such a great place. You have a real knack for spinning a story. Coincidentally enough, my wife and I will be visiting your fair country in a couple months for the first time. Like you, we will be taking to the open road and trying to see as much of the land of Hobbits as we can cram into two weeks.

      • thanks zaphod – you are, by far, my most favourite two-headed alien adventurer that I’ve ever had the pleasure of never almost not meeting.

        Enjoy my lands mate, but leave your compass at home, as all Nu Zeeland roads lead to the coast, with intense diversity of nature between, that will leap within your open window without invite.
        (you’ll soon see what I mean)

        Matamata is where you’ll officially find Hobbiton – but should you venture north of Auckland more than one hours drive, I will happily offer my bed (double), honest food & sincere hospitality, show you a landscape beyond a mere photo, beaches to infinity and a coastline to cast your thoughts upon.

        – and if you have a hire car, I can show you roads that you’ll never want to wish to forget, nor likely would, even should you chose to wish to want to, or not.

    • Oh my gosh, curious hobbit! I love your story! What an adventure and memories you’ve made along the way. I’m sure Audrey will be pining ’til your next return. 🙂

      • she better be pining pdenver, be she absolutely goshingly better be!

        ..or I may well be totally beside myself with grief – might even shed a brief tear ..seriously!

    • Chris, I am the one who went on my first chase experience right before you left. You asked me to let you know if I found the treasure to save you a very expensive plane ticket. I loved your story and I’m glad that I didn’t find the treasure (well partly) so that you could have such a great experience and that you shared it with us.

      BTW, Roll Tide is what everyone from the University of Alabama says (nick named The Crimson Tide). Alabama is the number 1 college football team in the country. University of Louisville is an up and comer that is now ranked #3. Go Cards! Watch them on Saturday night play the Clemson Tigers, who is #5 in the country.

      • Hi JBL
        yes I remember you and appreciated your prompt reply, as your courage & confidence (in searching so soon post-illness) did give me cold-feet. I brashly assumed I had a valid solve, but it was well worth the adventure away from my monotonous normality.

        I hope you are faring much better than you were the last time we messaged.

        Go the Cardinals!

  19. I’ve heard people discuss taking maps and then filtering out everything above 12,000 feet or below 5,000 feet or whatever. Could someone PLEASE tell me what program/app you use for that sort of thing? Does Google earth do it with a premium subscription or something or is it a diff program? Please help me I don’t want to waste a bunch of time/money on programs that don’t work.

    • Jonsey1…I use plain old Google Earth and insert a three mile wide square or polygon at the given altitude and with an opaqueness level setting which allows me to look through it. I believe you can also adjust the tilt. Play with the anchoring settings also.

  20. Just gonna toss this out there . . .

    ” too far to walk” — try using walk as a noun instead of a verb and see what you can come up with . . .

  21. kinda humorous thing happened on the way to the trove.

    after a flat tire on the first mountain pass, my wife declared she was not interested in the treasure, just “going along” (we had planned, and enjoyed, a nice vacation, hunt inclusive)

    The first day boots on was fun. She wanted to go back to that non-tourist area. By the end of the day I had a “newbie” on my hands. No place was not worth looking. I was saying (sometimes quite loudly) “That’s not a special place”, and the boy was saying “Mom, you can’t fit a body in there!” too funny

    I seriously hope no one heard us discussing whether or not “a body could fit in there”.

    🙂 thanks again Forrest, your mission is accomplished for one more family

  22. Went out to exercise my solve and came across very large and fresh grizzly prints after my hoB.

    Be safe out there.

  23. Hi All. I’m having trouble reconciling three of Forrest’s statements, and I’m wondering if anyone out there can find a plausible explanation:

    1 & 2. From Forrest Gets Mail #9: “Are there signs that people are getting closer to solving your puzzle? How many clues have people solved now?” Forrest replies: “Searchers have come within about 200 feet. Some may have solved the first four clues, but I am not certain.”

    3. Forrest on February 5th, 2016: “If you can’t make two trips from your car to your solve in several hours, then don’t go. Don’t search anywhere an 80-year-old man could not carry a heavy backpack.”

    So somehow searchers have managed to come quite close to the treasure chest (by design or accident), and yet he’s not even sure that some have solved the first four clues. He seems to be suggesting that if you have solved the first two clues (which he claims two or more people have), then it is possible to come within 200 feet of the chest without necessarily solving the first 4 clues. If that’s true, then why would he need two trips from his car to hide the treasure? I can come up with scenarios where two out of the three statements will work, but not really all three.

    My best strawman is that some searcher by dumb luck happens to park at the right location, and head up the approach trail that Forrest happened to use. So they’re in the right location, but for the wrong reasons. Naturally they won’t find the chest because they are missing one or more clues, and so they won’t know where to go off-trail to the chest. But I’m not a big fan of this scenario because it means that of the comparatively small number of people who have solved the first two clues, at least a couple of them nevertheless have stumbled upon the right parking spot.

    Perhaps someone can come up with a more believable scenario.

    • Zaphod, I will try.
      First let’s address 1 & 2. “Searchers have come within about 200 feet. Some may have solved the first four clues, but I am not certain.” – He also said this about the first two clues. so think about it for a moment. If people are withing 200 ft at 2 clues, and 200 ft at 4 clues… then it stands to reason that the route is somewhat circular “around” the end location…which is the chest. I say it is not a full circle because Forrest said it’s not, but he said so after pausing and saying he didn’t want to give anything away.

      Look at it like this place a DOT on a piece of paper. Draw a perfect circle around said DOT about 2 inches radius. Now start at the Top of the circle and that is clue 1. now go clockwise to the 3 o’clock position…that is clue 2. Now go to the 6 oclock position…that is clue 4. For some odd reason people are going AROUND the chest, because they cannot fathom the end destination.

      You want to know something wild? I know a possible location that fits that perfectly, and I just discovered it two weeks ago.

      3. “If you can’t make two trips from your car to your solve in several hours, then don’t go. Don’t search anywhere an 80-year-old man could not carry a heavy backpack.” Ok… what you may be doing is looking at your physical stature in relation to whats said here. Think about an 80 yr old man having to take a 42 pound dumbell, and carrying it say 50 -100 feet. He’s not 30. Now factor in the possibilities that rely on other stamina….

      a- he put it in a tree: That would be very hard for an eighty yr old man to carry a ladder, and a 42 lb chest to 100 feet to a tree and set up and take it up in one trip. Especially if he put a webcam up there to watch it.
      b- he buried it. Think…he has to carry 42 pounds atleast a 100 feet, WITH a shovel and/or pick. That’s a lot of weight.

      I like that you think about these things, but you have to put yourself in his position, at his age. Maybe he’s an even spirited person who doesn’t like to push his physical limits like breathing and heartbeat. If that were the case…it would be much more reasonable to carry half at a time to the spot. Just my thoughts or ramblings on the matter. Feel free not to take them seriously.


      • Iron Will — thanks for your reply. I’ve come to the conclusion that even if Forrest was physically capable of hiding the treasure in one trip (i.e. relatively short walking distance), there’s no need to over-exert himself, and as Goofy pointed out it is easier to look “normal” (if you happen to encounter someone else) carrying a 21-pound load instead of 42 lbs.

        I think the comment cautioning searchers not to pursue hiding locations that can’t be reached twice in several hours may have been intentionally vague so as not to clue people in how far he walked from his car, while also trying to deter people from attempting the ridiculous. If you knew exactly how long it took him to walk one-way, you could eliminate significant areas from consideration.

        On a final note, knowing where the first two clues put you (WWWH) in additional to several that follow, I think it is unlikely that the chest is within 200 feet of that spot.

    • Zap,
      First and foremost… I don’t think you can come up with a plausible / logical scenario with just the information you posted.

      There are many comments / statements / Q&A’s involving the first two clues and the closeness to the chest. imo, they ALL need to be reviewed along with the ones you have posted.
      Fenn also stated some got there by aberration. [ fenn’s meaning; something different]
      So if the clues are closer together that some expect, a 3rd or 4th correct clue might put you in the correct location. But now you might not understand how the poem works from the beginning and just wonder around passing clues not understood.

      “I warned that the path would not be direct for those who had no certainty of the location beforehand, but sure for the one who did.” f

      You asked: “…then it is possible to come within 200 feet of the chest without necessarily solving the first 4 clues. If that’s true, then why would he need two trips from his car to hide the treasure?”
      The simplest answer might be, weight alone. I’m sure if a group was to discover the chest, weight would not be a problem. So if a searcher needs to walk several miles to their solve, two trips would almost be a must. It’s one thing to heft a 40lb bag of dog food on a shoulder and walk [been there done that]… it’s another to carry 42lbs that is only 10″ sq.

      • Seeker: your answer contains a bit of mix and match on the distances from the chest.

        You wrote: “I’m sure if a group was to discover the chest, weight would not be a problem. So if a searcher needs to walk several miles to their solve, two trips would almost be a must. It’s one thing to heft a 40lb bag of dog food on a shoulder and walk [been there done that]… it’s another to carry 42lbs that is only 10″ sq.”

        How did 200 feet suddenly morph to several miles? He said searchers had come within 200 feet (at a time when he said no one had given him a correct solve past the first two clues). Are you suggesting that searchers started walking at WWWH and subsequently got within 200 feet of the chest? That seems very unwise, given that the poem says they have to “take it in the canyon down, not far, but too far to walk”.

        • I’m not suggesting it… fenn did.
          “Several months ago some folks correctly mentioned the first two clues to me in an email and then they went right past the other seven, not knowing that they had been so close. Alas, and dame fortune, so often a fickle and seductive wench, never spun her wheel to lure them back.”

          This is one that states the searcher who mentioned the first two clues did go past all the clues… There is another comment that adds the chest itself, to those who were at the first two clues, went pass the other seven and the chest… That I’m presently looking for.

    • Well Zap, what gave me some pause was his comment about some may have solved the first four clues but he’s not sure. So apparently they told him where they were but not what their clues were, is the best I can come up with to reconcile that statement. I mean, if they told him what their clues were he would know if they got the clues correct.

      He seems to be saying all the clues are in a relatively small area or you can see most/all the clues from one spot. So I agree with you; the first two clues seem to get you very close to the treasure.

      Unless he’s speaking about two separate groups of people. A group that told him what their clues are, and several of them got the first two clues correct. Another group that told him exactly where they were and they were within 200 ft. of the treasure. Like I said, I agree with you; solving the first two clues gets you very close to the treasure.

      As far as answering your question: “why would he need two trips from his car to hide the treasure” if he wasn’t carrying it far. I can think of a couple reasons why he would make two trips:

      1. He physically found it difficult to carry 40+ pounds over the terrain even though it wasn’t far. My son-in-law has a set of curl barbells, the one piece kind that you can’t add weight to. They are small and obviously made to carry, so I experimented with them. The 40 lb. one became cumbersome very quickly and I’m in pretty good shape for an old guy and twenty years younger than Fenn.

      2. There were other people in the vicinity, and he couldn’t carry 40 lbs. nonchalantly. He said when he got back to his car there wasn’t anyone around and he laughed. Does that mean there could have/should have been people around when he got back?

      Maybe he was just being Fenn; he challenged himself to get past all the people twice without being noticed. I’m kidding about that……….I think.

      • I can’t tell you exactly where this quote came from or a date… so without reference, take it with a grain of salt…
        “When I hid that treasure chest there was nobody around.”

        Zap, I would also had this if it helps;
        “Searchers have routinely revealed where they think the treasure was hidden and walked me through the process that took them on that course. That’s how I know a few have identified the first two clues. Although others were at the starting point I think their arrival was an aberration and they were oblivious to its connection with the poem. Playing a hunch is not worth much in the search and those who start out by looking for the blaze, are wasting their time.f ”

        “Where they think the treasure is hidden and walk me through the process…” I believe, in part, the reason fenn knows something about their solve that they didn’t understand… yet still mind boggling that even when at the correct location they, or so far, no one didn’t know what they saw.

        • Seeker I don’t have a notation or recall him saying that, but I agree, no one was around when he hid the chest. If he said that what do you think he means?

          • Goofy,
            INTO has most of it below… It had to be an interview… I don’t keep videos or recording, just copy down what I think is prudent in those. I should keep better records if only for sharing the accuracy of when they were stated.

            To be honest, if hallogetter has the same things I have… I’m pretty sure they are accurate.

            What I think he was implying is, ‘planning’ to know when he felt it was reasonable to go without prying eyes. If that helps to understand the location better… my only thought would be, the area might have more visitors / hikers / vacationers than lets say… not so much a place way out in the less traveled boonies.

            Personally, I think this could explain why any state is valid… he may have been on location for a couple of days, or more, to make sure others might not be around to finalize the hiding… went on a fishing trip, went to a meeting or conference, went some place that would not bring up suspicion of going some where, without a reasonable deniability. Lets face some fact… others, besides family, knew of the chest and the intent… IF travel was needed, something would need to be planned out that wouldn’t raise an eyebrow, giving time for reconnaissance, if you will. Just a thought, and in no way really helpful.

        • Seeker –

          Here is a list of quotes posted by Halogetter – and it includes the saying you quoted above about going in their alone.

          I thought it was worth repeating as there are so many good sayings just in this one interview. I’ve got to find out who did it.

          On the May 29, 2015, KVSF podcast, Forrest said this (and a few other things):

          “It was heavy enough that I took two trips to hide it. I took the gold in one time and I took the treasure chest in the second time.”

          “The treasure is out there, I guarantee it.”

          Interviewer: You bought the chest around that period (1982)? Forrest: “Yeah.”

          “I’m 99.9% sure that no one has found the treasure chest. You can never be 100% sure, but I know it’s out there. I would bet my kingdom that it’s still out there.”

          “I’m not gonna give any more clues.”

          “There are hints in my book that will help you with the clues, but a clue will point you toward the treasure chest and a hint will just help you with the clues, if you can understand that.”

          “I’ve said things people think are clues.”

          “I’m not gonna release any more clues.”

          “When I hid that treasure chest there was nobody around.”

          “I thought it was the most atrocious thing that I’d ever done.”

          “But in the back of my mind I told myself if I’m sorry tomorrow I can go back and get the treasure chest.”

          “It’s out of my hands now. I’m an interested bystander at this point.”


          IMO – he went in there alone because the gate was locked behind him. He had a key.

          • I was just re-reading this and saw;
            “Interviewer: You bought the chest around that period (1982)? Forrest: “Yeah.””

            I notice 1982… I’m gonna need to review this interview again if I can find it. I thought fenn bought this chest exclusively for the purpose chase… after he got ill in 88. I guess “around” is close enough for horseshoes. Not that it helps any.

            Thanks Into.

          • Seeker – Your welcome

            I have looked for it and am sure it was the Richard Edds Show – they might not keep the shows on line for all time………

            here’s the date again…………

            May 29, 2015, KVSF

          • Into and Seeker-
            That radio interview is linked on the Media Coverage page of this blog…
            Links to most of the Forrest interviews on radio, TV and press can be found on that page…
            They are listed chronologically so the oldest are at the bottom of the list.
            That KVSF interview is about 8th from the top.
            The Media Coverage page is a convenient index when looking for interviews…

          • into,
            I just heard it again. fenn Grand-daughter accompanied him to the interview. It’s always good to review some of these to refresh the brain cells. That and there are so many after the fact comments, it’s just hard to keep up with what was what. So yes it is still available to listen to.

      • Goofy: I think both your #1 and #2 are very good explanations. Salt for swimming pools comes in 40 lb. bags, and I can tell you I would not want to carry that mass (with just my arms) more than a few hundred feet. Sure, it would be easier with a small daypack where my legs were carrying the load, but since the weight is easily divided in half, I get your point: a lot easier to nonchalantly carry that kind of mass in case you are spotted.

        Perhaps his statement about making 2 trips from your car in several hours (i.e. more than two, but not much more) may be truthful, just a bit misleading. You get the impression that it will take you more than an hour to get the chest if you do it in one trip (i.e. with a partner), but it could actually be much, much less than that.

        • Could his two “trips” be verbs? I.e. the two trips (in life) it took him to (decide to) hide the chest? Aka the flat tires with Skippy and his Retirement from the AF? Both times “it was about time” (you’ll wonder what took so long…)pun on revelation “it’s time to do xyz”?

          • *note both were also trips “from his car”. sorry I’m on a set theory kick but nothing in the statements says the sentences are related. I.e. some were close (randomly) to 200feetm Some (others) may have solved four clues. Some (others) told me solves and they solved two. He never says they’re the same people, just lets us tell ourselves that part. David Copperfield style.

          • Jonsey,

            While I agree the above comment don’t explain who did what when or who was where and did something… I refer to this comment;

            “Several months ago some folks correctly mentioned the first two clues to me in an email and then they went right past the other seven, not knowing that they had been so close. Alas, and dame fortune, so often a fickle and seductive wench, never spun her wheel to lure them back.”

            This comment put some folks with the correct two clues passing by all the others. I’m still looking for another quote that states “and the chest” to mean the first two clues, the seven other clues and the chest itself being of the same searchers. So when I locate it i will post it. But this one could be interpret as ‘ not knowing they had been so close ‘ as the chest.

          • ” never spun her wheel to lure them back.”
            She couldn’t spin her wheel to lure them back.
            All the paddles are long gone.
            Yes, I see this as a hint to a paddle wheel up that creek that was there long ago.

          • I’m trying to follow you Seeker, but how does some folks mentioning two clues in an email equate to them actually even going anywhere? Maybe that’s where they went wrong?they never left the couch? While otgers didn’t even have the clues and were within 200 feet not even knowing they were near? I’m not saying that’s the case, I’m just looking for anything that makes these sets of people technically associated. I mean the first two clues could be read the poem and look at a map for all we know. Certainly several Ppl have emailed they did that then missed the rest? What gives? I can’t get my brain to resolve why two clue means they even went anywhere besides I tell myself that when I read it.

          • ~I’m trying to follow you Seeker, but how does some folks mentioning two clues in an email equate to them actually even going anywhere?~

            Yes, this is not the only comment on the subject, but i’m not going to hunt them all down either… One comment fenn said they told him exactly where they were…

            I don’t know of anyone that’s inside of 200 ft, but you know, I don’t know, they tell me where they are, and some of them exactly where they are, and so that’s how I know that. But so many of them tell me that they’re in a spot that’s in close proximity to the treasure, but they don’t know that they’re that close to it

            “…they tell me where they are, and some of them exactly where they are,”

            Again there are many comments on the first two clues and the 500 and 200 closeness to the chest. So “mentioned” can work both ways … telling of a solve and actually being at a solve searching.

          • Thanks pd,
            I was thinking more like a paddle that was spun by water than one that was spinning water.
            Interesting article though. E.C. Waters sure made a name for himself.
            Good & bad.

          • Jonsey,
            Here is the discussion on those who “deciphered” the first two clues and “they” walked right pass the chest. [ Note; this is in Toby’s video and even though I heard it before, this comment below was another searcher quoting… you will need to listen to the video yourself for accuracy]

            “There are several people that have deciphered the first two clues. I don’t think they knew it, because they walked right on past the treasure chest.”– (Moby Dickens Book Shop Signing / November 2, 2013)

            Add this to the other comments of searcher having the first two clues and went pass the other seven clues, and what I see in all is… some searcher involved in an active search were at the first two clues… went pass the other seven clues and the chest itself… a full process.
            And for that reason, I have been dumbfounded how folks who live and breathe the chase are at the correct location and not figured it all out or not even knew they were correct with the first two clues, and not recognize the other clues when at the correct location.

            Finding a hidden chest is another ball of wax… to locate the chest … imo… something very important is needed to be known to place you on top of it to find it.

  24. I’m not saying the following is plausible because I don’t have the chest.
    By the same token, nobody here can say with certainty that it is not plausible because . . . you don’t have the chest either.

    If you feel it is stupid, silly, or outrageous, then please feel that way without the need to insult me or attack me. In other words, if you haven’t caught any chickens, then please don’t tell me how to chase chickens.

    warm waters halt

    Up to this point, I believe it is safe to say that most, if not all, have taken this to be a noun.
    Why not try using it as a verb, seeing that, so far, using it as a noun has not worked ? Just to see what the possibilities are ?

    You’d be surprised at what you can come up with by not following the herd mentality.

    • Rolltide– if you mean “halt” yes, I have shared several times that halt means to limp along, or to e indecisive about which course to take. I have often thought of this in reference to “too far to walk”.

      • Joe Sparrow ,

        Here’s an example of what I’m getting at :

        Another word for warm, is temperature.

        “where temperature waters . . . something, or some place (waters used as a verb).

        Here’s another one you might like :

        Another word for warm, is “brown”.

        ” It’s not who you are, it’s who they think you are.”

        If I “twist” that just a bit, I get this . . . It’s not what you say, it’s what they think you say.

        ” It doesn’t matter what words I use, as long as the reader understands what I mean.”

        Perception is everything.

        • RT,
          I had this on the recent SB page, while I like most of your examples of water, and to the disscussion of Fenn “Mirrors” addition to the chest… I’d thought i put it here form better reference and discussion.
          Note: I have know real theory for it, but it is interesting just the same.

          I’m just putting this out there since pre-columbian “Mirror” is in quotes

          Mirrors in Mesoamerican culture
          Mirrors were also associated with water; an Early Classic mirror in the style of Teotihuacan was excavated at distant Guácimo in Costa Rica. It included Teotihuacan imagery that was a stylised convention for representing bodies of water. Water imagery continued to be associated with mirrors in central Mexico right up to Aztec times.These representations of water-associated mirrors in Mesoamerican art apparently use the mirror to symbolise the surface of a pool of water. During the Classic Period mirrors were placed in bowls to symbolically represent bowls of water; examples are known from Teotihuacan and throughout the Maya area. Water-filled bowls have been used as mirrors for divinatory purposes right up to modern times in Mesoamerica and the American southwest. An incense burner from Early Classic Escuintla on the Guatemalan Pacific slope combines butterfly and water imagery. The mirror has flanking ears representing the wings of the butterfly that is rising from a water-filled bowl.

          • Seeker ,

            Looks like a perfect place for me to say this . . .

            Two mirrors, two frogs, twins, doubles, two saphires, two bracelets, two separate stories about pies, two watches, two riches, shot down two times, twain, two people can keep a secret if, two this, two that, two, two, two, two, . . .

            I’ve never seen so many twos (mirrors) in all my life.

            And now, I find this –
            “people”= stream(s) and loads.

            Two streams can keep a secret if one of them is dead ?

            A stream is a creek. If a creek is dead, then you don’t need a paddle to get up it.

  25. Hey, Longmire netflix, season 5, episode 7, Just came out and it is about a treasure, a poem etc – spin off of the TTOTC. They didn’t say it was Forrest’s — changed the author and changed the poem – but it is definitely inspired by Forrest! Neat to see but a little gruesome – dead man in hollow tree!

  26. Into— That’s interesting. What a funny thing to put in a poem— an acrostic. But anagrams in the poem seem more likely I think— there are so many short sentences that you could scramble words fairly easily. Short words are needed, and the ability to hide the anagram within the sentence.

    I’ll have to check out those acrostics though— thanks for sharing that– very interesting indeed.

    • Your welcome Joe –

      I don’t place much faith in the acrostics either. There are a few that I found interesting – so that could place it in the coincident column. I did it more as a fun game. I do believe, however FF placed games in the solve.

      It could be that Forrest played a different type of game for each stanza.

  27. I think it would be a good idea to start a thread that deals with nothing but the dualities in all of this.
    There are just way too many doubles, twos, mirrors, and reflections in all of this for it to be sheer coincidence.

    • In support of my suggestion above, I will add this.

      Blaze = “equal sign”.

      An equal sign is a reflection. One side of the equation is a reflection of the other side.

      One side of the equation mirrors the other side.

      Maybe, one half of the poem is a reflection of the other half ?

      Certainly works for me anyhow.

      • RT,

        Just food for thought and to go along with your “Blaze=Equal Sign” theory, I have always wondered if the Blaze itself was a sign. F, wrote his own epitaph in TTOTC, “I wish I could have lived to do, the things I was attributed to.”
        An epitaph is usually found on a tombstone or in grave site terms a “memorial marker”. One of the meanings, as I’m sure we all know, of “Blaze” is a trail marker. A Memorial Marker would, in my mind, represent the very end of one’s trails, the last marker.
        I have always wondered if the blaze was the epitaph he wrote in TTOTC. Specifically, for the reason that he originally intended to go with the chest. I also, believe there may have been an interview or two where he made a comment that he still might go there if he has the strength.

        Just my ramblings…


        • I forgot to add, that it also plays into the same duality theory you mention. Life vs. Death.
          When one is at the end of the road I would imagine looking in the mirror at the end and trying to assess all that they’ve accomplished is a sobering experience.


  28. Hi all. There has been talk on here lately that Mr Fenn has said that someone has sent him the correct solve but has not yet had BOTG or had the wrong Blaze. Can anyone point to the source of this information or when he said this? Just makes me nervous!
    Good luck to all.

    • John I can assure you Fenn has not made that statement. But we’ve got hundreds that are very confident in their solution. Take you pick.

    • John R,
      This just your everyday gossip. Winter is on the way in and some people like to get things stirred up. I am not sure what they get out of that but just pay no attention to it. When the TC is found and picked up and confirmed by Forrest then you can start believing it. Worrying is just going to give you gray hair, there is nothing that you can do to stop it if it was true so why even wreck your days thinking about it. As Forrest has said “many times before” “when indulgence is found and if the person lets Mr. Fenn know so that I can confirm it (f doesn’t need more than a phone call) then he will put it on his web site Old Santa Fe Trail” so that everyone will know. He will also tell Dal and a few others possibly so that it can let the searchers Know. I only hope that who ever finds indulgence will be kind enough to return his bracelet to Forrest. I know I am going to if I find it. I want to shack the mans hand that stirred up the USA and around the world single handily…
      Good luck on your searching and be as safe as possible…

  29. So I’m watching Longmire on Netflix last night. Ten episodes in Season 5 which was just made available on the 23rd. Episode 7 has an homage to Forrest and the treasure as two guys in the episode are searchers for a treasure that a “rich guy” hid in the wilderness and wrote a poem with clues to find it….

    Anyway…it’s pretty fun…
    The series is shot in New Mexico but takes place in Wyoming.
    I’ll bet Cynthia and Michael are watching this for clues 🙂

      • Sorry Somewhere. I just noticed you already posted this..
        Yes…spending valuable research time watching cowboys and indians on TV…

        • I guess we were both relaxing and taking a break from the chase but Forrest still wiggled in like always! Your comment was a little more articulate than mine. Like that show, so many subplots. Sure was surprised.

    • I was watching the first episode of Graves a few days ago. There is a scene that was shot on the Plaza in Santa Fe and in one shot it looked like Forrest was in the background. It was only for a brief second, but it looked like him.

    • I got a big kick enjoying that episode too. Big Longmire fan. Really drove home the point”be careful out there” and “choose your partner carefully””.

    • Thanks for posting.I watched, and it was a fun episode.Am I the only one who hit pause to read more of the poem when they showed it? I hadn’t heard much of this show before this post and now im two seasons deep into it 🙂

    • Dal,

      Watched the same episode Saturday evening, I found it quite amusing! I love the show and my son got his name (Branch) from the series.



    Been on here a couple of months, went on an expedition or 2, and made a few comments, and saw a lot of smart individuals making sense of their own interpretation of their poem.

    Whether its the right location or not, of course we will never know who is right until someone actually solves the poem correctly and grabs the Roman Chest.

    or stumbles on it while hiking or camping and never knew nothing of ” The Thrill of the Chase” or Mr. Fenn

    This is why I want to act fast and start a team and go one last time to my locale in New Mexico before winter— Who is with me??

    I will hand pick a few people so go to my website/blog and put in your resume even if you cant look for it physically or think your too old, or handicap or too busy at this stage of your life… please apply I have other options


    Thank you for your time, and Happy Hunting !!!

  31. So after a few failed solves I will have to rehash some of the words in the poem.
    It makes me wonder why he used the word “halt”.
    Is this not of German origin?
    Also doesn’t rhyme with “walk”.
    Obviously we cannot change any of the words due to messing. Ask Dal.
    Both words have some letters in common but there must be something different about “halt” I am missing.
    I first knew about this word watching “Hogan’s Heroes” many years ago, but I do not get the connection except for stop.

    • Keep on truckin’ Jake ! There are no failures in this game…just a steep learning curve. I learn something every time I go on a search. Sometimes it’s Chase related, sometimes it’s just stuff…
      “halt” is a doozy and I am probably not correct either, but I will be persistent.

        • I don’t think it is (Hungry Angry Lonely Tired) Jake…but me thinks that it is more than meets the eye.

          • No ken, I don’t think that is the acro,
            How about, Begin it where warm waters Have Always Loathed Time.
            Just kidding.
            Maybe it’s what it is or maybe it is what it isn’t.

    • Jake;

      I have posted this before but to me this is what it means.

      If “Hot Water Stream” flows into the Missouri River. It ceases to be “Hot Water Stream” anymore. Its waters merge with the Missouri, but life as “Hot Water Stream” comes to an end, or halts.

      This is as clear as I can make it. Just my way of looking at it. JDA

      • I have agreed on your def of halt for a while now JD.
        But I think there maybe something more than stop or cease.
        I will have to study this word more to see if anything pops out.

          • Well JD,
            We are nothing short of confident.
            I have a feeling you will be in the same boat as all of us on Monday.
            Look into the future & you will see you will not be alone.
            In there…..

      • Bama Jama time baby,
        Sorry, wrong sport, Vitality.
        I think halt as a verb would need to be a qualifier to describe this action?
        My brain is coming to a halt.

    • Jake –

      Here are my thoughts on halt;

      Source: Ceremony of the Keys at the Tower of London by Laura Porter.

      The phrase “Halt, who goes there?” is uttered by military sentries on watch at night when they hear a noise or someone approaches their post. (Wikipedia article: General Orders for Sentries.)
      I wonder why during the ceremony of the Keys the sentry uses the word “comes” (which actually seems to make more sense because the sentry says this word to someone approaching him).


      Other that telling us that warm waters halt – it is also a way of FF telling us about “keys and the gate”. Keep in mind – in the middle is important and there are towers on the chest.

      • Jake –

        Here is the top part of my post –

        The Warder locks the outer gate and they walk back to lock the oak gates of the Middle and Byward Towers.All three then return towards Traitor’s Gate where a sentry awaits them.
        Sentry: “Halt, who comes there?”
        Chief Yeoman Warder: “The Keys!”

        This is from the ceremony of the keys…………..

      • Yes into,
        Military, European language & we know Forrest was stationed over there with the A bomb strapped to his wing.
        Maybe keys have something to do with it but I don’t think this is the word that is key although it’s making me wonder why he chose this word.

        • Jake;

          Just a thought. IF Forrest was trying to describe a place where two waters converged, met, mingled, joined etc….and one of those waters was a bit warmer than the other…can you construct poem lines that rhyme perfectly, and still meet the criteria? Additionally, the second line must describe going from one point to another somehow.

          “Begin it where warm waters _______
          And take it in the canyon down,
          Not far, but too far to ______.
          Put in below the home of Brown.” (sic)

          “Begin it where warm waters percolate,
          and take it in the canyon down,
          Not far, but too far to ambulate.
          Put in below the home of Brown.

          NAW – Not the right meaning.

          It would be HARD!!! Halt and Walk are NOT perfect rhymes, but fairly close, and it seems to meet the criteria.

          Just a thought. Sorry Forrest for butchering your beautiful poem lines. JDA

          • f has said himself that he chose each word carefully (paraphrased).

            He studied those words, he looked them up. He used words that would precisely convey what he wanted to say.

            Halt, is no exception. He could have just as easily said . . .

            Begin it where warm waters balk.

            Balk conveys the same meaning as halt, and it would have rhymed with walk.

            He chose “halt” for a very specific reason.

            Perception is everything.

          • Funny how you thought of that Bama,
            I was looking for other words that rhymed with walk & balk came up which is fairly equiv to halt.

            I agree, he chose that word deliberately & for a specific reason.

          • TR you said, “Balk conveys the dame meaning as halt…” I do not agree. Here are the definitions of both words:

            1. 1.
            hesitate or be unwilling to accept an idea or undertaking.
            “any gardener will at first balk at enclosing the garden”
            synonyms: be unwilling to (be), draw the line at, be reluctant to (be), hesitate over;
            eschew, resist, refuse to (be), take exception to;
            draw back from, flinch from, shrink from, recoil from, demur from, hate to (be)
            “I balk at paying that much”
            1. 1.
            bring or come to an abrupt stop.
            “there is growing pressure to halt the bloodshed”
            synonyms: stop, come to a halt, come to a stop, come to a standstill;
            pull up, draw up
            “Jen halted and turned around”
            stop, bring to a stop, put a stop to, bring to an end, put an end to, terminate, end, wind up;
            suspend, break off, arrest;
            impede, check, curb, stem, block, stall, hold back;
            informalpull the plug on, put the kibosh on
            “a further strike has halted production”

            One is NOT listed as a synonym of the other – Hesitate, and stop are (to me) NOT the same thing.

            Just my opinion. How do you see them as being the same? JDA

    • Jake,

      We’ve been told the poem is difficult. So think about that for one second… the poem is difficult. I don’t believe for a second the location is difficult, however some come up with solves that that seem very difficult for most to travel. I say this to make a point… the poem is difficult to solve, but the solve should be relatively easy once known… not only in effort ~ but understanding. In reading the poem we have been told to use logic and imagination. So why does halt have to mean stop?

      Many examples have been given by searchers for other usages of the word;
      Halt as to stop marching as to the month of march.
      Halt as a temporary change in direction, a bend in a river, a water fall etc. I’ll add… down grade or gravity direction.
      Halt as to freeze etc. there are many usages of what halt might pertain to. I even used it has a time period or Glacial period on a larger [ big picture ] scale.

      Point is… try reading the poem in a different perspective. It can still be straightforward… But just not what you original “guessed” it to be. If you can’t explore the possibilities of the poem, imo, you’re dead in the water exploring the physical search. As fenn has said; [ in summary ] he receives e-mails from searcher, they told him where they were, told him there process they took in their solve, and fenn knows they had the deciphered the first two clues, they walked pass the other seven clues and the chest, not understanding the significance of where they were. They did not know, [by fenn’s comments], they had the first clues correct… even when at the correct location.

      “I warned that the path would not be direct for those who had no certainty of the location beforehand, but sure for the one who did. f ”

      Are there signs that people are getting closer to solving your puzzle?  How many clues have people solved now?
      Searchers have come within about 200 feet. Some may have solved the first four clues, but I am not certain.

      Imo, the above comment is uncertain to fenn because he’s not certain ‘they’ [ searchers ] know the clues mentioned to be correct.

      There is more to know about this poem than meets the eye…imo. and that is becoming more apparent, since searcher have been on site and still didn’t understand the clues properly. We are missing something to say the least.

      So I’ll throw this thought out for conversation… is fenn narrating the first 1/2 of the poem? And when we get to the line… If you’ve been wise and found the blaze, fenn is now talking in the first person.

      • We will always get more than our dollars worth with you Seeker,
        I am wondering about a few words in the poem & would like to take one step at a time starting with “halt”.

        I will go out on a limb & say that halt means stop but water(s) never stop at all.
        Some say that water(s) stop in a desert when in reality they evaporate & the molecules keep moving.
        Some say they stop when it freezes & in reality again the molecules just slow down & keep moving.

        You said: “But just not what you original “guessed” it to be.”
        I like to call it an educated guess & I’m not talking about just institutionalized education but a strong knowledge of whats going around in our world.

        You are guessing that we need to ” try reading the poem in a different perspective”.
        When you don’t even know that your perspective is the right one.

        As far as Forrest talking in the first person, I would have to say “found” has a special meaning along with your research on the gold mirrors in the old picture of the chest & a bowl or crucible has a lot to do with it.
        Just my o’ Piñon nuts.

        • Jake…lol
          Your analogy water never stop because molecules within frozen / ice water still moves, is why different perspectives is needed… the excuse simply allows you not to look at other meaning, usage or possibilities expect what you hope poem is saying… rabbit whole 101. So is waters never do halt, by your analogy… halt can not mean stop, never ever.

          No problems… And yes, there does need to be some guessing [ educational or other wise ] work here to find the correct solve, which I’m attempting with different analogy and thoughts… One being, you think the poem must be followed in a direction you pick walking point to point, when it is possible that the clues lead right to the first clue[s]… another words the seven clues are seen from the first or first two clues and lead back right to where the searcher is standing.
          But that isn’t possible right?
          You think “we” the searchers must travel a canyon. Ok, knock your socks off… fenn made a statement about a canyon [ missing person interview ] that an 80 year old carrying a heavy backpack is not going to travel a canyon twice in one afternoon [related to the chase or not ]… it does speak volumes of a possible different perspective of what canyon might refer to.

          But maybe, just maybe, those searchers at the first two clues, who walked pass the other seven clues and the chest, were ‘not’ hiking the clues point to point at the time. And while your in the wood… place your on a tree, because wood can only mean trees right? or for that matter anything wooden.

          No Jake, I don’t know what fenn’s perspective is when it come to the poem, and that is why I’m looking at many angles of WhatIF… but I can surmise what is not working.

          I’ll halt here.

          • Seeker! I pretty much agree with you all the time…scary!
            Fenn did drive thru his canyon, he walked back to his vehicle laughing. We know this. But, does a child? I love interviewing kids, and the crazy answers they give, so many “what ifs”!
            I’ll give you all one to think on…
            Jacob, age 9, said, “Water CAN’T halt, it’s always moving, especially if it’s warm. My teacher said that. But it can be moved from its path, then, I think it would halt from its original path…”. From there he started confusing himself, but I understand completely. It’s trajectory can change, thus halting, and that can lower the temp, thus halting the warm water.
            And the chase continues!

          • Oh No Donna, Don’t agree with me… I won’t be able to see if, anything I think might be wrong… I like when I’m challenge by another who are involved with the chase, heard the same info I have etc.

            While I try to understand, not only the poem and the after the fact comments, It’s great when someone bites back at my barks… So even if you do agree… throw me a curve ball, use fenn’s comment as examples, point out things you may see that I don’t. Other wise, I might as well take up model trains for a hobby.

            But thanks for at least considering what I say as agreeable or thought provoking. So yes, be afraid, be very afraid… being in my head is a scary place.

            Water can be moved from it original path… Ya gotta like young Jacob, kinda reminds me of me.

      • JDA,

        Really? I mean, REALLY?

        The very first word you present under balk, ( in your feeble attempt to prove me wrong ), is “hesitate”.

        Synonyms for hesitate : balk . . . and . . . halt.
        (and, they were both on the very first page I pulled up. that was easy). You got anything better than that ?

        And, it’s RT. not TR.

    • Without a dam or other barrier, how can warm waters stop? If it flows into a lake or other body of water, it merges, it doesn’t suddenly STOP.

      Can you give an example? JDA

      • JDA
        My interp has nothing to do with any of this, but if warm water merges and is no longer warm then in fact it does halt as warm water and becomes one with whatever it is merging with…

        • I 100% agree. It has halted being “Warm Waters Something” and has become “Cooler Waters Something Bigger”. I agree!


      • JDA,

        As I’ve asked before, where is the most common place that you will encounter the descriptive of “halt” and “walk” ?

        hmmm, standing on a street corner maybe, waiting for the light to change?

        And yes, that is an example for wwh, even though most here will not like it.

        • No, it is an example of the word HALT changing to WALK – it has NOTHING to do with warm waters. OK, IF you are standing on the corner of WARM St. and WATERS Ave. maybe… JDA

          • JDA,

            You do know that using so many CAPS gives the impression that you are irritated and screaming at others?

            You aren’t the only one here who has an opinion. Mine is every bit as valid as yours is until the chest is found.


            Phew, I feel better, how about you ?

          • Don’t get uptight Bama,
            JD always gets this way before his failed trips.
            He’s just trying to get his point across & his point becomes blunt after the trip, just like everyone else.
            We can all CAP OUT all we want but what we want is OUT.

          • Sorry if my caps bothered you. Can you show me a better way to emphasize a comment? If you and I were face to face, my voice inflection would serve that purpose. Somehow, I have failed to teach my keyboard how to use inflection. Sorry.

            Yes, you opinion is every bit as valid as mine.


        • RT,

          I don’t think most don’t like it. I think some can’t relate it to being the first clue to then a canyon.
          I think it’s actually a good example to connection of word usages through the poem… instead of being a single use of a word and that ends a clue, miss the understanding of another meaning.

          • Jake,

            I know that’s right.

            “You can check out any time you like, but you can never leave . . .”

            f has indeed created a monster.

        • Hey Roll…..what about in Drill Marching? Your post made that pop in my mind….I just looked up some calls and it seems to fit kind of nicely. Now you got me reading the poem in to voices doing call backs like a Sergeant to myself
          Oddly….it flows nicely like that…

      • JDA- in the book F talks about saving a quarter to go ride his bike up the hill (canyon street) take a hot shower up at the Union station….I can’t remember how long a shower he got but he jokes about the math of needing to work an hour to earn the quarter to take the shower he needed cause he worked. Anyhow, in that story I noticed how the warm waters “halted” when his quarter (and 10 minutes or whatever) ran out….and simultaneously in the clean towel he used to dry off. The towel struck me as an unusual place for warm waters to “halt”. It that that helps necessarily but put a little window as to a place waters stop where I hadn’t thought of one before.

        • That is interesting Jonsey1, but how do we then “Take it in the canyon down? The warm waters that have halted are in the pipes, not down the drain – those waters have not yet halted. Just a question. JDA

          • JDA- He had to ride his bike (apparently to far to walk) uphill to get there. And it was an easy ride back home going DOWN the road. Ironically titled Canyon Street. Its in West Yellowstone you can check it out on Google Earth. And I’m sure you’re already aware of the Brown gravy that assaulted his senses before getting FIRED.
            I like the story of getting fired frok the newspaper better though. Only for the irony of getting blazed (fired) while failing to sell The Blaze. There’s something VERY interesting in that story as well if you do the math and look at the cost of the papers and what F was making. Lol. Good thing he took a break on the curb just then.

          • ….the warm waters halted when they stopped pouring down on him as his time was up and he was handed the towel…..Ironically his times not really up though long enough to. do. it. all. over. again.

          • I don’t think F could permanently hand in the proverbial towel signifying his time being up for good even if he wanted to. He probably still hates open showers to this day. And probably LOVES warm towels. Just a guess that he has a complicated relationship with exposure in general. I mean his hat can only cover so much when that’s all on has to cover up with. Big decisions there….hide your face or hide your jewels 😉 lol

        • The story is great as to how things line up full circle for the wanted outcome…

          To be able to take a warm shower, you have to work for the quarter that enables you to take that timed shower, that is timed by the amount of time needed to work, to simply take a warm shower that is needed after you have worked for some time.

          I read a poem somewhere that seems to do the same thing.

  32. For one, water doesn’t necessarily have to flow to b stopped. Two, warm might b a generalization of temperature.

    • Jake ,

      There are those “not deliberately placed” hints in TTOTC.

      Pages 110 & 111 have always been a pesky fly-in-my-ointment, reading on here somewhere, that f had nothing to do with the illustrations ?

      • RT –

        You are kidding right? Don’t believe everything you read here…….I think you can bet your bottom dollar that FF had everything to do with every single little thing that happened in that book.

        Deliberately placed was referring to chapters – and those are in no particular order to aid the searcher.

        • into ,

          Most of the time, I choose my words very carefully. That was one of those times. I like tomatoes but, I don’t like them nearly as much when they are thrown at me from the shadows.

          I actually typed that out several ways before choosing the final that I posted. I then added the ?, at the end, just as a safety precaution.

          I don’t like altercations, mainly because I don’t like myself when I am forced to get “nasty”.

        • RT –

          I was trying to be helpful…….not trying to sling tomatoes……so very sorry if you took it that way.
          I’ll try to be more careful with my choice of words in the future………no altercations here.

          The illustrations in the book are many – and there is so much info there – I did not want you to over look it. Peace….

          • into,

            I was most certainly not talking about you, I apologize if that’s the way you took it.
            You have never came across as even remotely being that way.
            I enjoy and appreciate everything you have to offer.

            Again, I apologize for the misunderstanding.

      • RT –

        Ok thank you……

        For some unknown reason – there has always been a problem with discussions on this blog about the illustrations. Someone always comes along and pretty much shuts the conversation down. A poem purist that thinks the poem is all there is. This subject of the book vs poem, has been beat to death here. IMO that person will not know or ever find out many things and is missing out on all the fun.

        • into……agreed! And more to the book than illustrations. Valuable words found within I fully believe!!!

        • into,

          The illustration on pages 110/111 of TTOTC . . .

          Notice the two boys in front of the car.
          The boy to the left, his arm appears to have been drawn in a somewhat peculiar position, don’t you think? It appears to be “reversed”. And, his hand is “hidden”.

          Now, notice that the next boy’s hand is also “hidden”.

          Hidden-hand synonyms :

          Open sesame

          With there being two hidden hands, you have two heavyweights.
          Two heavy loads.

          Now, notice the odd angle of the rope between the two boys. It is not consistent with the rest of the drawing. It has purposely been drawn at an obvious downward angle.

          To form that big fat X right there on the grill of the car ?

          And, we can all see the water seeping from the radiator behind the grill.

          Cars halt at a crosswalk or stoplight. Halt and walk are commonly found at both of those locations.

          Notice the teacher “halting” the driver of the car, as the kids are “walking”.

          Cars have radiators. The water in the radiator has to be “warm” to operate properly. If the water freezes, you are subject to engine damage. If the water reaches the boiling point, you are subject to engine damage.

          Warm waters, halt, walk, heavy loads and an X, are all found right there in that illustration.

          The ” DO NOT TOUCH ” in that chapter, screams at me. But, I won’t say why.

          Plus, the kids touched GW on the chin and the nose. Poor ol’ GW just sat there and took it on the chin, and took it on the nose. He had to “be brave”. He had to “take it on the chin”.

          Gilbert Stuart also did a portrait of GW with GW’s hand tucked into his waistcoat. His hand was “hidden”. And, it was his left hand, just like the boys in the illustration.

          The book is loaded with stuff like this, if you know how to find them.

          Good Luck

          • Good find Alabama!

            Here is a bit more you can conclude off of that.
            Cease and Halt go hand in hand.
            The English word Germany derives from the Latin Germania, which came into use after Julius Caesar adopted it for the peoples east of the Rhine.
            So in my puzzle I use Julius Caesar to form my halting and Cease.
            The English word “Germa”, translates to the German word “Warme”. Which means Warmth in English.

            IMO there is a going to be a German Translation that will need to be used in order to find out some specifics.

            Good Luck

          • ROLL TIDE –

            WOW – I told you before your good at this and now will change that to great. It’s so nice to have someone agree with me.

            Remember FF talking about the Gilbert Gaul, dead dog on the bridge painting? Yesterday, I found out why. It is a sort of clone of a Georgia O’Keeffe painting, called dead rabbit and pot. She won an award for that awful painting. The reason I mention this – is Georgia is the first person in the line of kids. Of course, she loved to do paintings of flowers – which are on her dress. Many things about that dress – and the rope is behind her back.

  33. Begin it where the warm waters halt……..


    where do the warm waters of the Pacific halt…….?

    or the warm waters of the Gulf of Mexico halt…..?

    How would you apply these to a river, stream or lake?

    • In all those places the warm waters rise to the surface, evaporate, and then become a cloud. Where both they, and their warmth, halt, cool, and then head back down wherever waiting to be warmed again…

      • I had thought about WWWH as a periodic geyser but with the large number of fishing terms spread throughout the poem I choose to lean toward the interpretation of WWWH as classically defined Brown trophy trout habitat. (HOB and WWWH are almost in the same line of the poem.) In my opinion it is folly to ignore the obvious fishing terms in the poem but this doesn’t mean any one of those terms must be interpreted in a literal sense. All this thinking effort is an attempt to find the precise WWWH so we aren’t “all just wasting our time” (paraphrased).

      • RT –

        Did you find it ? We found it years ago – over on ttotc.com – but haven’t seen it again. Yes, it had a smoking gun. Don’t know if it is still there. Also – page 39 …………has some smoking guns.

      • Roll –

        Here it is being auctioned …….no photo of it. Seems the price is about right.

        Gilbert Gaul
        (American, 1855 – 1919)
        The dead dog
        Lot 296 – Sotheby’s, New York (March 17, 1980)
        $ 1,800 USD
        £ 822 GBP
        Original Currency of Sale: $ 1,800 USD Hammer

  34. Not to interrupt the spirited back and forth, but I suspect Dal would prefer that discussion of WWWH take place under the area he has specifically set aside for it. Makes it easier to find these comments later.

  35. And Elijah came unto all the people, and said, How long halt ye between two opinions? if the LORD be God, follow him: but if Baal, then follow him. And the people answered him not a word. (1 Kings 18:21)

  36. I shared this verse because another translation says “why do you limp along between two opinions?” (Oh pinion! Lol). Halt can mean “lame” or limping, or caught between now two directions.

    “Where warm waters halt” could refer to a river that has begun “limping along”— a creek? Warm waters halt could also refer to where clouds (waters high) stop at mountains.

    The phrase could mean a lot of things, but not when you think of “walking” and “limping” they do tie together quite nicely.

  37. Well, seeing F loved flyfishing, I see the treasure near a waterway or up high that has a scenic water view. Using that logic, I’m sticking with my solve as a slow , lazy, sun warmed river, striking a shallow rapid area, thus halting ww and speeding it up, then plummeting into a canyon….waterfall.
    ☆ Ok, Seeker, ty.
    ☆ JD, like your confidence! I think your intelligence scares a few, thus the muffled aggrivation from others, but they’ll never admit it. Peace, brothers!
    ☆ Jonsey1…a towel? I like that! Something absorbant, like sand? Or a hole?
    Wow! Y’all got this redneck thinkin’!
    And, maybe Brown isn’t a person at all, but a respected thought/place!
    Be safe
    ¥Peace ¥

    • I like that about Brown, Donna! Sometimes I think it could be just a generic random name and the answer is “foundation” or “basement” “cellar” (thought I’m partial to ‘foundation’ in my own solve) and he could have put any name there so “Brown” is more of just a distraction, while saying “what’s underneath a home” with no name would have been to easy….and a non-generic name probably would have ticked of some random Kliengerhoffers in the mountains. Who knows though. Lol

    • Donna;

      Thank you for the nice words. I appreciate it. We hope that my confidence pays off Sunday, and as to intelligence – not so sure about that.

      Forrest’s words; “I said in my book that the solution will be difficult but not impossible. If it was easy anyone could do it. Whoever finds the treasure will mostly earn it with their imagination. I have done only a few things in my life that were truly planned. Hiding the treasure chest is one of them.
      And at the end, the one who finds the gold will not feel lucky, but instead, will ask himself, “what took me so long?”

      I hope that this is the case.

      Again, thanks for the nice words – Good luck in your search – I hope that you find all that you seek, and TRY to STAY SAFE JDA

      • JDA,
        I am wondering how long/if you have spent figuring out how it is hidden? Myself, I’ve spent the better part of every waking moment since I returned from my very short botg. It is my understanding whoever finds it will walk straight to it with a smile on our face.

        • I was introduced to the search on 23 December, 2015. On January 3, 2016 I began to figure out the pieces. For a time, I started at line 1, stanza #2 – Biwwwh. It took until February for me to figure out that I needed to start at line #1, stanza #1. “As I have gone alone in there” The “in there” was the key. I did not know yet where “in there” was, but I knew that when I had defined where I thought the treasure was located, that I had to look IN that location, and not just AT that location.

          So to answer your question, “…how long/if you have spent figuring out how it is hidden? ” the answer is about eight months.

          From January until today, I have had four “solves”. Each solve is an extension of its Predecessor – each building on what I have found. Each, moving me farther upstream.

          I started my last solve on August 30 – so about one month ago. I have felt that I knew “how” it was hidden – 8 months. I have known “Where” (I hope) it is hidden for about one month.

          Hope this answers your question.

          Good luck in your search. Hope you find all that you seek – and TRY to STAY SAFE JDA

  38. OK,
    I’m going to halt on halt.
    I know I read somewhere about all those rules Forrest wrote for himself.
    I wish I had the whole list.
    It could tell a lot more about him or who/what he is not.

    • Let me get to the point for all those that think the poem is more complicated than you think.

      It’s not who you are, it’s who they think you are.

      I would have to say this rule is near the top if not #1 of all the rules he has made since a lad.

    • The poem *is* more complicated than most people think . That’s why it hasn’t been solved in 7 years, and why Forrest was worried (initially) that it might be too hard to be solved. But he hit the difficult Goldilocks target: just barely solvable.

  39. Another humorous story from the family vacationhunt.

    Long day on a 5 mile 1600ft “pleasure hike”, but we revisited our favorite spot; me having to stop and cool down about every39 seconds. After searching in “Mom there’s not enough room for a body” spots and ready to go, I take a last look back.

    My heart stops. Petroglyphs! A sun with rays, and a guy running carrying a box. The boy sees a bison. They are on a tuff* boulder and there’s a rock shelter at the bottom. A deepish but dry creek bed separates us. Freshly converted newbie Mom was besides herself with excitement. “Mom, don’t try crossing there. Or there. We’re not trying that and you don’t have the bear spray.” She was quite willing to take the bear spray and leave her husband and 11yo son defenseless.

    We proceed downstream and find a crossing, now thoroughly off-trail. Momma is convinced there is a bear in the shelter, so I fearlessly lead the way, bear spray holstered but ready.

    Wait! the sun petroglyph is a whole petrified tree–the “rays” are petrified limbs. Cool. We slow down and stay tight, ready for momma bear to attack.

    Finally, our destination. A house sized tuff boulder with rocks poking out everywhere making neat shadows.

    Shadows like a sun with rays, a guy running carrying a box, a bison.

    Too funny. Thank goodness we all have a decent sense of humor to compliment our imaginations. It was a fun and exciting adventure.


    *tuff is a crazy mixture of all shapes and sizes of rock in a durable matrix

  40. Evening Team,

    You all pose very good questions regarding the “halt” issue. I have myself pondered this for a long time as well, as in my opinion there are a number of meanings depending on the overall context it is used in the sentence (noun, verb, intransitive verb, pronoun, etc).. Is it a thought unto itself, “Begin it where warm waters halt,” or is it part of the next stanza as well. “Begin it where warm waters halt, And take it in the canyon down,” and so on.

    I agree with Jake, that when viewed in the overall context of the sentence it doesn’t fit, in my opinion. If we were to take the mostly commonly known meaning of HALT (to stop/cease or cause to stop/cease) then for me the word doesn’t fit, for the simple reason that water never ceases movement. Even in an isolated lake with no tributary water entering/exiting, water is perpetually in motion, even when to the naked eye it appears calm and still. It moves with the motion of the earth, as well as and more commonly the air. So to use the word HALT when referring to water, always seemed strange to me. For example, If a hot spring runs into a stream of ambient temperature water, it becomes warm, but it doesn’t halt…..

    I will halt now on my ramblings and wish all the best in their chase……


    • Seeing we’re not trying to make Halt complicated, as to say water never ceases because of molecules in the water or the water in a lake [ enclosed area ] still move… that would mean my glass of water is moving at 1040 miles per hour [ depending on where that glass resides ] as the Earth spins.
      So now we need to not only find the location of a single spot that water seemingly doesn’t halt, but were it is to find out the speed of which it travels.

      Maybe this is why no one can find that illusive canyon down, because by these thoughts of water never halts… If a body of water can’t be considered as stopped when there is no entrance or exit, just evaporation … neither can the canyon, or a tree or a soldier… we’ll never find hoB, cuz that boy just won’t stay still. Forget the RM’s are still moving… someone please halt the planet so I can get off, I’m getting dizzy.

      • Yes Seeker,
        Water never halts, even if your are on the north or south pole or even in space.
        Our solar system is on a spiral band moving at thousands of miles per hour.
        Our galaxy is spinning in space in our universe & we don’t even know how fast we are actually moving.
        I guess it’s all relevant.
        So we must pin point it down to “warm”.
        The poem was written by a human & has temperature relevance according to touch & feel.
        Therefore I must conclude that what the architect was trying to convey is a feeling based upon his experiences.
        Ah, the qualifier.

        Where warm waters get cold……
        I can feel that.
        Chat with you a hundred thousand miles away tomorrow where the water is still moving but the temperature has changed to where you can feel one of the 5 senses.

        • Exactly Jake, but relative to who? Warm is to you has hot is to another.
          Cold sensation of water during the day, but the same water feels warmer at night. The water didn’t change, the air temperature did. You’re working on the “senses” of an external party and not the water itself. This isn’t over complicating?

          Now While I think warm waters is simply liquid water and IT takes the canyon down… that doesn’t say waters can’t halt in the general meaning and usage of the word halt. Unless water ceases being liquid… then it changes to a solid or a gas / vapor… straightforward as possible.

          I thought your desire was to keep it simple and straightforwards, but now you’re bringing in sciences of molecules and movement of standing waters by other effects. This line then should read ‘begin where all waters never halt’
          For warm to work as a temperature, there needs to be a relationship to the temperature in degrees. I could also say the same for warm and cold… a 32 degree day can be warm feeling in an area of Alaska to a cold 32 degree night in death valley.

          So why can warm be an emotion?
          or an illness, maybe warm indicates closeness, and even death… as the warmth leave the body.
          Can you read stanza two and three with those meanings? I can.

          Begin it upon death and take it in the 6′ hole down, not far, put one foot in the grave, from there it’s no place for meek, because the end is always coming ~ you can escape that, your difficulties are over and now in a narrow passage… between a rock and a hard place with tears of sorrow above.

          Is this the reason to look quickly down? a place held in high regards and respect? A poetic reading of a ceremony with clues referring to places and most of the places are in very close proximity to each other, and I could arguer a non human trail… with a marker / blaze.

          Where did fenn go alone? And brave to do so, and bring his thoughts /possessions with him? But is fenn talking about himself or narrating another in time? is the special place a representation of the unknown french solider. the X that marks the spot so to speak…

          Hear me all and listen good ~eulogy
          you’re effort will be worth the cold ~of death
          if you are brave and in the wood ~represents coffin
          I give you title ~ marker / blaze.

          Yeah yeah, more than my normal dollers worth.

          • Seeker, your “dollers” are spinning now. All good examples and not difficult. But where does it leave us?

            If we go with the thinking, then the waters are not moving so the halt has a different meaning. example- train station. And warm. since it’s not a temperature, could be an emotion(good thought), or just simply a name(but wouldn’t it be capitalized?) unless the name is different and just has the word warm in it. Example- warm spring ditch in Colorado, below Brown’s pass. We also have to tie in the importance of the first clue and how we need to “nail” it down. So, where do you get nails?

            So, we are looking for a train station/ hardware store next to a place with the word “warm” in it, that has to do with water. Can’t be too many places like that in the Rockies. Maybe the B, A & P. Robert doesn’t get the recognition he deserves. 🙂

            Jake, telling everyone to “get back in the box” and then going Stephen Hawking on us is a contradiction. Don’t worry, I’m out here, I’ll guide you back…My light beam only goes 80′ though. At least that’s what the shadow says.

          • Charlie,
            In the example… “nailed down” works well. But yes, we need to know where that takes us. It could be a name reference to warm, but I tend to lean away from that for this reason… why does an one clue have to be one place? or better yet, why does one line need to be a ‘full’ clue?
            I can see stanza two as 4 clues to mean one location. I can see stanza two and three as many clues describing one location. [ both large and small in different readings of the poem ].

            But here’s a thought… lets say one reading of the entire poem gives 9 clues to a small location [ when I say small I don’t mean a mile sq or more, but a place much smaller ] Those clues have lead a searcher to this area to find the information to locate the chest. Fenn has only told us that the poem will lead us precisely to the chest and the poem contains nine clues within it. Could there be information at the point the nine clues lead us, to that we need to to see ‘ look at with marvel gaze ‘ for our quest to cease.

            All the information to find the chest is in the poem, because the poem leads us to the answers that fenn already knows?… line of thinking. [ on site ] something we should have certainty “beforehand”?

            Is the blaze found in the poem or only on site? WhatIF it is both… the blaze [ fenns trail description ] lead us to the answers, that are not within the poem. So we need to find the blaze [poem] that leads us to the blaze [on site ] that gives us the answer to where the chest lays in wait. Is this the reason for the question in stanza five?

            While I can’t discount the stomping method of point to point. I’m still baffled how searcher can be at the correct location and not understand what they see and walk pass the seven remain clues and the chest. But the stomping method has be a huge failure… and I still say we are reading this poem from the wrong perspective.
            So we need to ask; If all the information is in the poem, and we have the book as reference to help, and how many maps have been utilized… why can’t anyone get closer than the first two clues?
            Even when many have been at the correct location and walked pass everything else.

            To be very blunt; there’s little imagination imo, to the stomping method ~ just names of place changing and /or force fitting. A lot of good logic being bounced round blogs, but we’re missing something. That “important possibility”

          • Hi Seeker,

            You pondered, “While I can’t discount the stomping method of point to point. I’m still baffled how searcher can be at the correct location and not understand what they see and walk pass the seven remain clues and the chest.”

            Easy. They don’t know how to solve the next clue, and possibly don’t even recognize the nature of the next clue.

            “But the stomping method has be a huge failure… and I still say we are reading this poem from the wrong perspective.”

            It’s simpler than that. Some searchers (only Fenn could estimate how many) have figured out the correct starting point, and for the right reasons. But most apparently fail at this point. In their search for the wrong thing they happen to pass right by the clues because they don’t even realize they ARE clues.

          • Seeker, I agree. Since the poem needs to be analyzed over and over again, it is quite possible that there are different clues to certain parts of the poem that when re-analyzed, would not be a clue. Example, if you are into coordinates and line whatever gives you one of the numbers. That would be a clue to the coordinates you need, but when you have your path laid out, it’s not part of the 9 clues that lead to the chest.
            Then comes the ol’ what is a clue and what is a hint. We are not going to go there.

            It very well could be a layered poem, and the 9 clues we are all hing up on is just the path we take to get to the chest. Meaning, point to point. But you can solve the poem to get your spot, reverse engineer it, and see the path you take happens to cover 9 things in the poem. That is why the first clue is so important. It seems obvious that if you get the first clue, the second falls right in place. Since he has said it is a straight path, and only one way in, leads one to think that the 3rd would be in line. But, since searchers have the first two, leads me to think that the third is in recognition. BOTG.

            With his statement about tight focus, would lead to think that the later clues are very close to each other. This would lead to think that some are not places but directions, steps, feet, distance, etc…

            Final thought would be the hints. How important are they? Are they just back-up info, confirmations, or, do they help in the final step to chest extraction. Example- he used an “underwood” typewriter. HoB could be Brown centipede (who’s home is in logs/treestumps). Could the chest be under something wooden? The clues might get us there, but the hints may be just as important. Now here come the remarks of, just solve the poem and don’t worry about what a clue is from the ones not in tight focus. We know, of course. The all mighty first “path” clue is the solve to any vet now. You have that, everything will fall in place.
            Have to remember that the first 2 clues were solved to the best of his knowledge by whoever wrote to him. Soo many don’t right, after 6 years, someone is close IMO. But, do they know it???

          • Zap and Charlie,

            The one thing I see is, both of you said almost the same thing… first n second clue… and the third is a hint or a misinterpret clue…. the misdirection of the searcher.

            The problem may not lie in the third clue or later clues… fenn did say, some may have the third and fourth clue.
            [ In all honesty, we don’t know at this point in time if those clues were of searcher at the site or something fenn read ].
            But the one thing fenn stills think is, they don’t seem to know they have 4 clues or understood something. That’s half the poem!
            We were told the clues get easier as you go along, Something ain’t right.

            The problem I see, [ looking from the outside in ] seems to be, no matter how many clues someone has, something is a mist from the start and not so much a later clue.
            What is it about the first clue that needs to be nailed down, and not simply know of it, or even know exactly where the location is??

            “There are several people that have deciphered the first two clues. I don’t think they knew it, because they walked right on past the treasure chest.”– (Moby Dickens Book Shop Signing / November 2, 2013)
            I’ll add; Searchers told fenn the first two clues and walked pass the other seven clues.
            It’s turning out…imo… that first clue is more than a just starting point, something at that point is needed to be known or the other clues [ even if some are known ] doesn’t get us anyone closer to a full understanding of the solution.

            And being 200′ from the chest isn’t all that its put up to be. But I’m not a member of the 200′ club either…lol.

          • I’m probably wrong, but, didn’t f say that a searcher might have the 4th clue, nothing about the third. I may be wrong, don’t remember. Which is easy enough, a searcher could have sent him a picture of the forth clue and not let on how that person got there.

            The importance of the third clue is pretty big. It will lead to the later, tight focused clues.

            As far as the solve of the first and second, my opinion is that it was a long time ago, when searchers were just picking places to start out of thin air. I don’t have this luxury but most searchers back then would see common places to where they are. Kind of like their own backyard. If there was a canyon, ditch, gulch, valley, etc, near a place with warm waters in the name, well that may be their starting point, and e-mailed f as much. Back then, it wasn’t really about solving the poem but rather throwing darts if you will.

            It’s hard to apply the knowledge we have now to searchers back at the beginning. We were all foolish. But now, we realize that with the correct first and second, we are on the path. That is why the importance of the third BOTG clue. To let you know you are headed in the right direction. Because really, if you have the right canyon down, who cares about WWWH, right? Okay, maybe not if in someone’s solve the first clue is the key to unlock later clues, but, he did say if you know were hoB is, who cares about WWWH is. I agree, those searchers had no idea they had the first 2 clues, and probably still don’t, figuring by now would have changed their spot, thinking, what have you. And, searchers now might have the first 2 clues and not know it. f has not come out and said, update, searchers a month ago also have the first 2 clues. And of course, you will not know you have the first 2 clues until you have the chest, so it really gets us nowhere.

            As far as the 200′ comment, I don’t care either. Might as well have been 5 miles.

            The point I guess is to just cover all your bases. The place WWWH, should have something to do with: water, warm, nailed down, halt, a canyon near, and I’m sure other hints to back up . Missing any one of the “big five” (water, warm, nailed down, halt, a canyon near) would be an incorrect WWWH. It should also lead you on a path with only one way to get in. But that is debatable.

          • Hi Seeker/Charlie,

            Seeker wrote, “The problem may not lie in the third clue or later clues… fenn did say, some may have the third and fourth clue.” He said they may, but he is not certain. This could be because the searcher(s) mention a place they went without giving the reason, so Fenn can’t be certain they weren’t just there by accident.

            “We were told the clues get easier as you go along, Something ain’t right.”

            In my opinion, the third clue is no easier than the first and second. I think some might even find it harder than the first clue. Fenn probably feels the clues get easier as you go because once you have the starting point, you have vastly reduced the search area. So the universe of possible places to choose from is much more manageable.

      • Sorry Seeker, I wasn’t trying to be confusing. Is it possible that there is no actual physical water?
        For example, If your solve is in New Mexico, well the State Fish & Game says that all waters are warm that do not contain trout. If you can locate their nifty state map that includes every, river, lake, stream, creek, arroyo, etc. and tells you what fish inhabit each area, then you can quickly narrow down what they consider “warm water” and “cold water”. Once you eliminate all of the areas south of Santa Fe, with the 8.25 miles north and beyond included in the search area, you will quickly find there are not that many places.
        Anyway, I have been thinking for some time now that there may not be actual water associated with the “WWWH”. Just my own thoughts………..


        • TSHB –

          Perhaps that is true there is no water ——

          Have you given much thought as to how mad people would be if there wasn’t water and the poem said so. Would people be calling FF a fraud, and other names……..

          I’m quite sure FF thought about that.

          If the poem says water – is there water? Yep, I think so..

          • I have to agree. In my solve, there is “warm water”. Just can not imaging Forrest using the terms “warm – water – and halt” without them having a relation to a tepid liquid. Just my opinion though. JDA

          • LOL, into…
            There have been searcher who have been mad and left the chase for much less. [ I know of at least two that went bonkers over WWWH is not a dam and never heard from again ] The only reason someone would get mad is because they didn’t try to think of those “WhatIF” or realize what “difficult but not impossible” means.

            Heck I have Idiots call me every name in the book because I don’t turn right on red when there’s a sign that says prohibited.
            Stupidity is hard to cure. I don’t think fenn gave it a thought, nevertheless a second thought ~ imo.

          • Seeker –

            I really don’t presume to know what FF thinks – that comment was based on the fact – he said the poem is straight forward

            So if he said waters – waters it is.

          • Into,

            We’re just chatting right? So just for fun… what is straightforwards to the poem?
            The way we want it to read, the way we think it should be read, or imo, an honest rendition of fenn’s perspective. which we need to see it through his mind.

            Poems from the point of view of the writer, are not always obvious, and those are not involved in a hunt challenge to be interpreted.
            Like fenn said; he chose the avenue of a poem to present the clues.
            I think, he knew the possibility the likelihood we would fool are selves.

            It’s not what you think it is, it’s what I can make you think it is…line of thinking.

            That is not misleading, it’s wit and cleverness. Many like to call this a puzzle. I think it’s more like an investigation. We have to understand how the clues committed the action. No blood hound for sniffing… this is a challenge of the minds.

          • Seeker –

            I do see your thinking – and of course it would be plausable.

            I think each and every word is used for a reason. To look for the reason – before one solves the whole poem – may be a disaster in the making. I think as you solve the poem – then you realize why he used certain words. Simply picking a word out of the poem – doesn’t work for me. Unless it’s a name – like Brown or marvel.

        • TSHB,

          HA! I can’t be confused more than I already am. No worries.
          I’ll give ya a thought of how the poem would not be about water… You’ll have to think differently for a moment, but What if the question in the poem gives you the answer on where to start… then that “know where to start” is where the 9 clues come into effect.
          My example is fenn’s “answers” tired and weak. To mean a Medicine wheel. And yes, there is more than one in the RM’s and we need to read the wheel with the 9 clues to find the answers to the clues. In this scenario WWWH might be considered water, but not water you can touch or see. And I hate to say it but, Brown in this scenario could mean Bear. [ I can’t believe I said that out loud…lol ]

          Right ~ wrong or indifferent… I feel more thought is needed for this solve than meet the eye.

  41. I think more than a few new searchers arrived at the Chase this year from a negative story (hoax, missing person, etc). I was listening to this podcast again today, and I think it’s really one of the best introductions to TTOTC. If you haven’t heard it, this is a good place to start your quest.


    • Thanks very much, Jeremy, for posting that podcast link — I had not heard it before, and I agree it is an excellent introduction to the Chase.

    • Zap ,

      Entertain me for a moment . . .

      I’m not sure that f ever said those searchers who had figured out the correct starting point, had done so “for the right reasons”. Seems that he said “they didn’t know it”. And, that others had also arrived there but, it was an aberration.

      Now, imagine this . . .

      “Hey Forrest, we went on our search this past weekend and we travelled up highway 123 , heading to our search area. Well, we were getting kinda hungry so, we stopped in at Joe’s Greasy Spoon for a couple of burgers with xtra onions. After that, we needed batteries for the flashlight, so Joe said we could get them a little ways down the street at Billy Bob’s convenience store.

      We could see Billy Bob’s from the diner, and it didn’t look that far but, it was too far to walk after those fat burgers and onion rings so, we got in the car and drove down there.

      Then, we continued on down highway 123, headed for our interpretation of wwwh . . .

      Now . . . is it possible that Joe’s and Billy Bob’s could have been the first two clues ?

      Those folks would not have been at either location “for the right reasons”.

      They would have been there for other reasons, not knowing they were at clues 1&2 . . .

      Those others who were there by aberration, could have took a turn up highway 123 just to get gas and food, and then turned around and headed back in the direction they had came, headed to an entirely different wwwh than the first party.

      • All of which, goes back to the fuss I made early on, about what one’s “interpretation / perception” of “solved” really means.

      • RT: wrote, “I’m not sure that f ever said those searchers who had figured out the correct starting point, had done so “for the right reasons”. Seems that he said “they didn’t know it”. And, that others had also arrived there but, it was an aberration.”

        Here is the relevant quote from Fenn that addresses this:

        “Mr. Fenn: In the past when you have said that several people had figured out the first two clues and then went right past the other clues, would you say that they got lucky and just happened to go to the correct starting area, not fully understanding the poem, or would you say that they did indeed solve the first two clues by understanding the poem and clues? C”

        Fenn’s reply: “Searchers have routinely revealed where they think the treasure was hidden and walked me through the process that took them on that course. That’s how I know a few have identified the first two clues. Although others were at the starting point I think their arrival was an aberration and they were oblivious to its connection with the poem.”

        Now you can argue that “identifying” the clues is not the same as *solving* them, but I’m pretty confident that there have been plenty of people who have figured out the first two clues.

        • Zap,

          That’s fine, I say tomato you say tomahto, kind of thing.

          I was simply offering a different perspective on this.

          My perspective is that I don’t think “anyone” Knows that they have solved the first clue, much less the second, simply because f has said we won’t know we have the correct wwwh until we have the chest in our possession.

          To me, solving and identifying, are two entirely different concepts.

          To each his own, I don’t have a problem with that.

          • Jake — my take is that when Forrest says “others”, he does indeed mean other searchers. That some searchers arrived at the starting point by design, but that others did so by dumb luck. That said, the starting point could also be popular with siteseers, fisherman and others that no nothing of Forrest’s poem.

        • What I find odd about this statement by Forrest is how he elaborates about “others”.
          The question was only about searchers….
          But hen he elaborates on others.
          How did he know that others were there without the searchers mentioning it?

          He is tipping his hand & the tell is right there.
          How many searchers that have walked him through the process & would mention others being there?

          Hi Forrest, we were at Ojo Caliente searching for the clues & went down Firehole Canyon bla bla bla.

          I seriously doubt any searchers would mention others when walking him through there solve.

          I think Forrest knows that the 1st 2 clues are areas of interest for tourists or fisherman or “others” just there to see or do something.

          Why else would he elaborate on this info unless he already knows.

          • Sorry pd,
            Didn’t get what you said about searchers.

            Anyway, my coin phrase when I doubt something is:
            “No bout a doubt it”
            Get it now?
            Instead of:
            No doubt about it……

          • I agree Jake. To me it has to be near a place frequented by “others” – people other than searchers. I do not believe it is in YNP, but it could possibly be near some tourist attraction or scenic trails.

            Yes, Forrest said that there are no trails in very close proximity to where the TC is, but what is “Very close proximity”? 200′, 100′, 50′ ??

            Who knows, certainly not I. JDA

          • Jake,
            “others” arrive by “aberrations”.
            The context here seems to say other searchers have arrived at the first two clues, but had no idea what the clues were. Hence ~ aberrations that live on the edge.

          • Seeker,
            ” they were oblivious to its connection with the poem.”
            He did not say the first 2 clues or clues in the poem.
            Read again.
            They had no idea what the poem is…..

          • JDA, very close proximity would be: not seeing one from the other. Example, if I’m at the chest, I can’t see a human trail, and if I’m on a human trail, I can’t see the chest.

            So, in the Rockies, we could be talking just a couple of feet, compared to if you were in say Nebraska on the flat farmlands.

            You could go off trail for say 50′ and not be in very close proximity, and in other places be 1 mile away and still be considered in very close proximity because of line of site to each other.

            Best way I can explain it. Say you have a mountain and on one side is a trail and the other the chest. Being at either spot, you are not considered to be in very close proximity. Now, take the mountain away, now you are in very close proximity…(considering no trees to block your line of site).

          • Per Jake. Upon my return to one of my areas, something heavy was lifted and they tried to place it back to its original spot. There is absolutely no other reason for this to happen other than someone searching, for this I am positive.

          • Jake, at one time he used oblivious, another time he said others didn’t understand the significance… Forrest gets mail on the second one.

            I believe there is at least one more comment about others, that they got there by aberrations.

            You need to read all the comments… and all related to those at the first two clues.

            But let’s face facts…
            If the chest is on public land…there will be others at some point that will be on public land.

          • What bothers me is how Forrest knew there were others there that had no idea.
            I guess it will be a mystery but still wondering why he mentioned others without being asked.

            I see the 1st 2 clues as being an area that is frequented by many without knowledge of him or the poem & that tells me it’s a tourist area.

          • Charlie, there is one thing you must understand to have a chance at finding the treasure. Your version of what a word or set of words means, differs greatly from Forrest’s version. That’s why so many say that you must not focus on yourself when solving the poem, but try to focus on Forrest. To Forrest, close proximity is just a few inches, due to ….


            Last two sentences and last picture in his post there. Good luck with everything

          • Jake,

            IMO only. The tourist place is only good for one thing… not being on private property.
            If you look at any place in the US [ other than private property, and even then many privately own property are open to the public ] all public land is open to tourism. So I don’t see any help there.

            What I think is, other searcher might have e-mailed fenn, told him where they were as well, but they explained how they got there the wrong way, and not truly knew they were there. As fenn said… they got there by aberrations.

            So lets use Earth Quake lake [ a well known area in the chase community] as an example hypothetical;
            Hi FF, we searched an area we think this clue and that clue are, and on our way to other clues, we stopped at the visitor center at EQL, how horrible it must have been. Then we went to our other clues and never found the chest.

            So if EQL was one of the first clues… They arrived there by an aberration [fenn’s definition; something different] , didn’t know the “significance” of where they were, “oblivious” to the poem as a clue, and maybe, never knew how “close” they were.

            This scenario could happen any place, in any state that searchers believe the clues and chest may be located. I’ll add, imo, it’s more than possible that the “others” fenn talks about in the comments were active searchers at the time.

            Yes, there is a chance they were ‘only’ tourist, but with all the comments put together, logically the others mentioned were active searchers.

          • I can not agree with charlie, at least to the extent that he takes it, but I do agree that proximity is relative. To “pickles”, close proximity is a couple of inches – maybe, but when he says that no human train is in very close proximity to the TC, I seriously doubt that he meant inches. I still go with somewhere between 100′ and MAYBE 50′

            But what do I know? NADA JDA

          • Playing devil’s advocate against myself…maybe when he said that there was not a human train within close proximity, and you accept that it might be a few inches – I can agree, there is NOT a human trail within inches – it is 50′ away.

            He is tricky with words. JDA 🙂

          • I might have said this before but I literally have a hard time getting past the following:

            The girl in India cant go past the first two clues

            Ppl have gotten the first two clues and gone past the rest.

            If I make these statements interpret past as the same then the girl in India would have gotten the first two clues (I.e. she couldnt go past them- she would have already got them….it would be the same for a boy in Waxahatchie) if you pause and really contemplate the statement…what’s in common is they both have the 2 items. Poem and map. Considering the second statement logically….they can’t “go past” the first two like others went past 3-9 because they already got them. It’s hard to phrase but if he uses English consistently I think what I’m saying makes sense even if I’m poorly phrasing it….but if it’s correct the first two clues are get a poem and get a map.

          • jonesy1, I think I know where you went with that. The “map” to the treasure is within the poem, for which we already know exists. Yet, would this be considered “clues”?

          • Jonsey,

            They “can not get closer”

            We know searcher can go pass. They already did. poem ~no poem, map ~no map. Little Indy or maybe anyone “can not get closer”

            So what is the goal we all seek?

          • lol, I remember that story Iron. Clears that up. You are right, I think I just looked it up and went with it. My bad, good find…

        • ” they were oblivious to its connection with the poem.”

          How would Forrest know this unless the searchers spoke with the “others” & told him.
          No bought a, doubt it…

          • To me, close and proximity are redundant. They both convey the same thing .
            Has anyone here ever heard of “far proximity” ?

            So, why say close proximity instead of simply proximity ?

            This is not the only time f has done this.

            Asking ourselves how close is close is akin to asking ourselves how deep a hole is. The numerous answers will be the results of each of our individual interpretations and perceptions.

            Maybe we should instead, be asking ourselves why he said it this way, instead of what it means ?

      • Zap,

        I guess what I do have a slight problem with is statements like this :

        “Some searches have figured out the correct starting point, and for the right reasons.”

        You offered no validation for that statement.

        Those new to the chase have no idea if that is simply your opinion, or if it is indeed something that f has said himself.

        I can see where that could cause confusion, that’s all.

        • I see your point, RT. There is a subtlety here: a searcher could figure out the correct starting point, and tell Forrest the logic behind why they selected it as part of their solve, but ~they~ wouldn’t know they had the right starting point — only Forrest would. So it would be more accurate for me to say that it is my opinion that Forrest believes multiple searchers have solved the first two clues in the intended way, but the searchers themselves aren’t 100% sure they have.

  42. Water all of you talking about? I was streaming a video before I came here but was reminded of my father, who constantly sneezed. Often at the dinner table he would say “halt pleasss!” and we knew to pass the salt, as he had asked for it while sneezing. So halt has a whole different meaning for me.

  43. if a river made of melting snow and ice it would be freezing cold – some of that water from the melting snow will go in to a reservoir and in time it would turn warm -which in time it will be released and meet up with the freezing river and that’s where the warm water halts being warm and that’s where you begin it

  44. Searchers…There are 3 types of fish environments classified by anglers…Warm Water, Cool Water, and Cold Water. Brown trout prefer 58 to 62 degrees Fahrenheit. They will swim to warmer water to feed but will return to cooler if it is possible.

  45. I wasn’t going to say anything, but we are leaving early tomorrow to hopefully retrieve the TC. Due to serious health issue our search buddies are not able to go, so just the husband and I . We expect to be on sight on Saturday morning to ‘raise the lid’. Unfortunately, we can’t figure out how to use the gps, so I’m counting on the key word I found in the poem to unlock how it’s hidden. It’s the same exact location I gazed upon last time, but didn’t know what to do. I only ask that you wish us safe travels and adventures. I either figured it out or I didn’t. PS. I have plenty of time if needed.

  46. @pdenver….yes. that would say that many of us have the first two clues. Certainly a few would have mentioned it in an email of which he could vouch for the few that wrote it. And, coincidentally, several (or as you say many) wouldn’t even know it as just skip the other seven in whatever solve they came up with. Maybe even were at the right spot….just had the wrong solve that GT them there. Or picture a train station where Ppl. Get off….they could have no idea the significance of the place even though they’re there

    • * you wouldn’t be able to get any closer than finding the spot in the poem and then on the map because the statement qualifies them both as NOT being in the search area. To get closer to ANYTHING one would need to progress from their current spot. As long as IN india or IN Waxahatchie they havent progresses any further. If the third clue was, say, head to the rocky mountains…they havent done that. Converse wise, Ppl could have told F they read the poem and map and went to the Rockies and they solved 3-4 Clues yet had no idea the significance of them….or perhaps that those are even the clues they solved. (?) I’m confusing myself now. Is it too early for wine?

      • I don’t drink. Would you mind having some on my behalf? I’m a little confused, but I can see you’re really trying to figure this out and I greatly appreciate you sharing your thoughts with us.

      • Perhaps the first two clues tells us which state and a more precise “area” to be at, and then from there, we’ll need to understand the remaining clues by the visuals it may represent, as well as, walking to the spot to get there. Hence, the children could not continue further because they know where to start, but need to see the other clues to understand. Jamie, mind if I join you in that glass of wine? 🙂

  47. Sure! Heck…let’s just drink the whole box. The kids solved the first two but can’t get closer because the third clue is to go to the Rockies. Other people have solved the first two (one read the poem and two got the map) then skipped/gotten the rest wrong,/insert whatever here. The DID mention reading the poem and map in an email (and F can’t be certain of how many did the same without email but knows there must be many). By emailing they had those two they have emailed the first two clues solutions even if they don’t know that’s what they were.

    • The problem jonsey is… those searcher told fenn ‘where’ they were, told him exactly where they were, etc.
      Sure some searcher could of e-mailed fenn with ‘thoughts’ of a solve and had some clues [ first two or more ] correct, and very likely were not on site.
      But someone [ “a few”, “several”, “many” are words fenn used ] had to be in the correct area to walk pass all the remaining seven clues, and eventually be some, within 200′ of the chest.

      IF the third clues was to be ” go to the Rockies ” that would mean the first two clues are not, so I can see what your scenario is saying about other who simply e-mailed fenn can’t get closer. But now the question is … in your scenario… WWWH could in no way be the first clue!
      “there are many wwwh in the RM’s nearly all are North of SF” comment.
      Which would make wwwh at the very least the fourth clue, if the third clues says go to the Rockies. But the big dilemma is~ the first two clue put you in the location near the chest in the Rockies.
      What some think a solve is in an e-mail, is different to someone that told fenn ‘where they were’.

      It’s fun thinking about the different avenues and possibilities. But even those need to be dissected as well.

      What seems to be missing here is ~ “move with confidence” and be “certain beforehand [ direct path ]” and ask ourselves “What took me so long?” These comments seem to be suggesting things needed to be known prior and not so much after a find.

      My suggestion, thought, idea, about the above comments is… we might be missing the knowle[d]ge of what the poem is relaying. Without that little piece of information, knowing the where first two clues still won’t get someone to the chest. Is this why fenn feels no one will stumble upon the chest? and not just because it’s hidden so well.

      • Yes Seeker, the going with confidence etc. is why searchers, including me, thought the poem could be figured out from home. But he didn’t say where one would go with confidence from; and he has emphasized over and over and over the importance of the first clue.

        After looking at everything Fenn has said, I have come to a conclusion/opinion. The searcher has to be at the first two clues to figure out the remainder of the clues. Once we are at the first two clues we must be wise; having a good map and knowledge of geography will help. When a searcher figures out the poem on location they will wonder what took them so long and proceed with confidence, nothing will be accidental.

        Many have figured out the first two clues, but because of a preconceived solution went past the chest. And why the girl from India or boy from Waxahachie can’t get any closer than the first two clues.

        • Goofy – I have wondered about f’s comment

          “A good solve is frequently lost in a poor execution.”

          and what he meant by it.

          A “good solve” to me would be one with at least the first and or second clue correct; any solve that does not have the first clue correct is plain and simpe a wrong solve, no matter how much a person wants it to be good.

          In my opinion, the “poor execution” is going to the correct place and being so focused on what one has preconceived the other clues to be that the person(s) then go right past the other seven clues, perhaps come within several hundred feet of the chest, and go home disappointed. They don’t take the time to observe and notice what they are passing and to think about what they see while they are there as related to the poem.

          I always try to take at least one of my kids with me when I go out searching. It never fails when we arrive at our predetermined location and the chest is not there, that I get the immediate “let’s go!” even though I want to look around some more and just sit ,observe, and think about the area. Their whining always wins out after a short time because of the inability to actually sit, observe, and think through their protests.

          I pretty much agree with your assessment of being there but maybe differ a little in opinion (or maybe yours extends to cover this thought too) that a person can possibly figure the other clues out from home after being on site and putting their solve to the test (because f has said something like you just have to thinking the right things – probably not an exact quote).

          I think whoever finds the chest will have gone to their search area multiple times to put their solutions of the clues to the test. After doing so repeatedly, they will reach that point where they find the chest and ask themselves “what took me so long?”

          So what is the confidence builder that keeps a person going back time after time until they make that final walk to the chest, full of confidence, with a smile on their face? Whoever figures it out will definitely be the one smiling. 🙂

          • JCM,
            Observation is one thing, but it seems that some have been quite clever or smart to decipher at least the first two clues. I have a difficult time thinking the meander along the path and not attempt to notice things around them. 1 searcher may be, two sure, several or many? I’m not too sure. But I see what you’re implying.

            My other nit pickin is “solve” for me a solve is complete. not just 2 pieces out of 9. Again while I see what you’re saying, and Goofy implied almost the same. I have to wonder if searchers think of a back up plan or ideas while on site or simply streamline their search. So yes I can see observation lacking, but the ones that got the clues correct… i’d like to give them a bit more credit for their wit and smarts. They were observant enough to figure those out when most haven’t.

          • Hi Seeker – I suspect that those who got the first two clues correct had them before arriving. Kudos to them for having the mind power to figure them out, especially the one’s who did it within about 18-20 months of f’s release of TTOTC.

            I have asked myself why they could get two correct, others only get one correct, and still others arrive and be oblivious of the areas connection to the poem. I suspect that the reason that those who got two correct didn’t get the other seven correct for the same reason that the others couldn’t get the second clue or were oblivious to any of the clues when they arrived. The clues are difficult, but not impossible. Like watching American Ninja Warrior.

            I know f has mentioned and thinks that the clues get progressively easier once you get the first one, but his belief of that might not be correct; at least that would seem to be the case thus far; they seem to get harder because people aren’t figuring them out once they get the first clue, well maybe they have clues three and four. I have some other thoughts on this topic but I am not going to go into it here.

            So many people are chasing water falls or deep areas of water as water high and large boulders or power lines as heavy loads. They are associating the words to things that seem to represent or fit the words as a generalized description, but they are not finding a solution to the clue that comes from thinking, analyzing, and using ones imagination. That seems to be the level of observation and thinking that a number of people do and that is why I think it is so easy to walk by those other clues and be oblivious.

            In addition, so many people spend so much time and effort researching their perfect solve and spend a significant amount of money to go chase down the spot. They arrive at their destination and for many it is a very deflating moment. They take a huge hit psychologically. It usually isn’t until they are at the airport heading home or when they get home that their mind engages again and they start thinking about where they went wrong… and we know the rest of the story and the return trips that ensue.

            Not everyone is necessarily this way, but many are. “Poor execution.”

            As for the “solves”, I have the following scale:

            1. No clues correct – wrong solve.
            2. One to eight clues correct – a good solve.
            3. All the clues correct – the solve.

          • JCM,

            For a moment I thought I was reading one of my post…lol

            Yes Poor execution may be to blame, and more than likely. My gears are turning and I am still trying to see ‘where’ the execution might have gone wrong. With what we seem to know… it all relates to the very beginning for me.

            We have been told [like you mentioned] the comments from long ago have had a subtle increase… a few… several… many… for the first two clues, which imply fenn receiving more and more e-mails of searchers getting it right [first two clues] and relatively recent, some may have indicated the first four clues,

            [ if only we knew if they were “on site” or just e-mailed there thoughts]

            and to my point… IF those four clues where told of being on site, Then I have no alternative but to agree with you that, the clues all the way through the poem and solve, are just as difficult or equally hard as the first or first two, and maybe even harder.

            Then again { and I’m paraphrasing because I don’t have this comment written down } fenn said, something about if we had the first three clues it should be enough get us there. I need to find that comment again…I think it was a video. IF, repeat IF my recall is remotely correct… I’m stumped. I would truly have no clue why, when on site and with possibly more than the first two clues things still get out of wack.

        • I would agree totally… but in the back of my mind the ego is repeating… people have been at the first two clues with the correct deciphering of what the clues are. But I’m not saying we’ll have all the clues solved or know exactly everything prior.
          I’m suggesting something is needed to be known prior, that will guide us through the correct process. { the full process is what seems to be off }.
          The question is how much prior? is it before we leave our homes or something on site prior to the clues, an understanding of the first clue if you will, when we are on site that may shine a light on why this place, that might show us how the rest of the poem works.

          The stomping method is missing something… That appears to be obvious, at least from what I see.
          Maybe the remaining clues are of one thing or a very small place. Maybe the clues tell us we need to do something that will aid in “retrieving” and not so much find it.
          Maybe the poem first 1/2 is of another and just like us attempting to follow fenn, we need to understand who that might be. and why fenn in stanza 5 [ part of the second 1/2 of the poem ] is telling why he must go. [ basically doing the same as us ].

          I don’t have enough information to really suggest any thing about the 4 clues… but going with the flow of the first two clues comments… it still “seems” if someone knows of four clues, it “might” be exactly the same has the first two, being at the location may not be enough.

          I’m pretty sure, a searcher needs to be botg throughout the entire process, but something is not being considered or over looked. IMO, that involves the comment “know where to begin” and it may not be a physical place.
          I think the “important possibility” fenn suggested no one seems to knows, might be knowing of or knowledge of.
          Where that information comes from I have no idea… poem, book, geography, maps, botg, common knowledge, common sense, seeing something in plain sight that blends unnoticed on site, a different interpretation / perspective… etc.

          But imo the single method of simply following point to point will not do it by itself. The after the fact comments seem to imply the same.
          This is why I think fenn is happy the poem has done it’s job… the critical piece of information may not have been found / understood as of yet.

          • I don’t know if it’s one piece of information or just an overall understanding; maybe both. Apparently once we figure it out we will be confident about where to go.

            I have actually felt this way before the girl from India, boy from Waxahatchee, or Arab kid from Marrakech comment. (Waxahachie is misspelled but not Marrakech, maybe he was just testing us Texans.)

            Anyway, I figured the solution was a magic formula like many insist it is (I can’t prove it isn’t), or the poem can only be figured out on location. Having to be figured out on location would go along with Fenn wanting to get folks off the couch. And be the reason the guides, rangers, and folks like me that have wandered the Rockies most of their lives haven’t figured it out.

            We have to be on location and be wise……..Obviously I’m missing the wise part.

          • Goofy,
            I go along with being on site. I thought the entire poem could be completely solvable prior, but I’ve come to the conclusion, because of the first two comments, little Indy and her counterparts etc. There is information of sorts in the field. And like you said, Folks who know the mountains well still need to be in the ‘right’ location.

            But I’ll give credit where credit is due… many searchers deciphered the first two and possibly some searcher the first four clues. These folks don’t seem to be dummies to me. So like ya said… we might be missing the wise part. Not so much wise as a clue, but a major oversight.
            My problem is… is that over sight knowable prior or only in the field. lol or like the blaze; in the poem or only on site…

            And just like the word that is key… we might know what the key is, but we seem to not know which way to turn it.

            Oh Well, I need to get back to training my Golden Retriever to sniff out gold. Maybe fenn would let me have a hair or two for training… My mutt so far can only find her favorite tennis ball.

      • I really like your thoughts Seeker. And certainly one can have all the confidence in the world in India or Waxahatchie or anywhere else with only the chest and the map. Personally I’m more a fan of Courage. Courage gets you places. Courage moves one past the poem and the map and into the world and onto #3. Like you said… maybe one needs to arrive at WWWH. Just my opinion.

        • Jamie,
          You have given me plenty to think about, and just like me when some one reads what I post, they may not agree, but it might give a kick start to another thought… whether if its the same idea I have or leads to another.
          One simple example was; years back some one suggested fenn’s car is weak because the tires have traveled far to get to his location, and that is what that stanza is telling. Well after I got done laughing, it gave me a thought of Medicine “wheel” I just needed someone to say tired as a wheel to kick start a thought.
          Another was in the wood; where some one reminded me of a saying, in the saddle, which lead to the thought of the saddle of a mountain pass [ which that person was implying ]

          I have talked with searcher who utilize the kitchen sink method and have gotten many thoughts from them, talked with one guy who has a method most don’t even consider and even though I disagree, we still give each other food for thought from both of are different methods that may spark something in our own.

          I also like when Goofy or others give me pause on my wild thoughts… it helps to keep me from going off to the far-side and finding alien eggs in the poem.

          So throw out any thought you have… I appreciate it, even if I don’t agree.

  48. Sorry about the box too….Im saving my thin necked bottles for in person company. 🙂 It tastes pretty much the same anyhow, unless one know the difference, of course.

  49. The MW of ff have appeared on her blog…

    The “top two treasures in the chest” (IMHO) will prove to be:

    #1 The Fenn Autobiography

    #2 A still Undisclosed Gift that will only be revealed after lifting the lid.

    What a story and dramatic conclusion to #1!

  50. I have a sense that “A still Undisclosed Gift” will only be revealed after lifting the lid”…… and finding it. “In the Wood” behind the underside of the lid.

    So exciting!!


    • SL, I’ve thought about that before. Which makes sense because it comes after finding the chest and going in peace.

    • SL,
      In the wood to mean the wood lining in the chest.
      Then could the last stanza be indicating ‘the gift’ a last will and testament?
      Hear me all and listen good, the reading of… your effort is “willed” to the Seeker [ just had to throw that in]. Title to the trove/gold to mean ownership… If you’re brave: meaning to take on the challenge.

      ” undisclosed gift ” full disclosure of the will? No argument of ownership.

      Oh well, there goes my theory of the saddle of a mountain pass

      • Seeker,

        Yes, I do agree. (Wouldn’t be too quick in possibly dismissing your “theory of the saddle” tho).


    • I was thinking/hoping that there may be information regarding the legal firm that advised Mr. Fenn or legal information which could give the finder confirmation to free and clear ownership of the treasure.

  51. Being one who analyzes everything, here’s a freebie for all you West Yellowstone searchers.

    “. . . top two treasures . . .”

    Why not “two top” treasures ?

    Two Top Mountain. West Yellowstone, Mt.

      • Thanks pdenver,

        I’m constantly looking for the twos, twins, doubles, etc.

        Two Top would be a mirror-image of top two, from either end.

        • FF. Months later, when the chest was almost full, I added two 5” round Pre-Columbian gold “mirrors,”
          Not sure if some else has pointed this out but if you look at p21of ttotc.
          Look at the two guys in the back round on has a hat and one does not but they are a mirror image of each other their bodies are kinda shaped like a mountain with a half X. In the same pic the arm on what is supposed to be FF and the the guy in the back are mirror image and in the elbow looks like an Indian head with two feathers. And the to guys look at the first to guys that I said are mirror images as well. Ever thing in the picture on page 21 is mirrored.

          • Also the guy with the hat on the left. It kinda looks like the brim of his hat are letters. I have tried to make them out but have had no luck.

  52. It seems to me that most of us are trying to decipher the poem without following it precisely. In the TOTC book Forrest tells us to follow the clues, but he does not say to decipher, or interpret, or crack etc. the clues for us to find the chest. Now, there are only 3 ways, in my opinion, to follow the clues precisely, and they are by making a copy( copy machine) of the poem, writing it exactly as it is written, and reading it exactly as it is written. Those are the only ways I know on how to follow the clues precisely, but yours my differ. Why is this I important? Well, there is no solve if the poem is not followed exactly. Yes, the poem as a whole.

    The first stanza is the beginning of the poem, and that’s our start. In the poem there are 8 periods, and one question mark which gives us 9 sentences. These 9 sentences are the six stanzas, and the whole poem. 9 sentences are the 9 clues. One cannot follow anything if she, or he does not know what to follow. So to follow the clues, or the poem exactly,or precisely is to read it ,and follow what it is saying. Not more, not less. To me this is clear-cut, but maybe not to you.

    So if this is true, why is it that nobody has solved the poem yet? Because nobody has solved any clues on purpose. The findings were accidentally. Whoever finds WWWH, not by accident but on purpose ,will have solved the poem. But to solve WWWH one must follow the poem precisely. One will know when they have solved this first tangible clue for all others follow precisely.

    But why is WWWH so important? This clue is the key for all the proceeding clues , and without it the following clue is worth nothing, just like a zero to the left of a number. One cannot solve it if one does not follow the poem precisely. Oh, yes I almost forgot. All of the previous is my opinion. RC.

    • RC, If we know on a map WWWH, and can trace the clues (at least the ones that are possibly represented on a map) to a point to where we have to have boots on the ground, do you think we can avoid actually going to the (possible) point which is WWWH? I hope that question is understandable. You seem to have your wits about you and I think we are on the same wavelength in terms of thought processes.

      • @Joe I do not think you need a map before the fact. You only need a map after you know where you are going. It’s my opinion.RC.

      • I am not RC, but will pot in my two cents. If you know where “wwwh” is on a map, no you do not actually have to go there, although you will be missing out on a very pretty place to take a picture.

        From there, take the canyon down – drive – very pretty. Could walk, but not good for a 74 year old guy with heart problems – driving is easier.

        hoB – didn’t have to go there, because I knew where it was, but did take a side trip there once just to take another picture. Now a whole lot to see.

        Have to drive past “meek” spot to get to END. Could walk, unless you are 74 like me with heart problems. etc. etc. etc. Just my opinion. JDA

        • JDA and RC, thanks for the reply! JDA, I love a good photo opportunity, believe me. I haven’t searched a lot of places, but but the place I have searched is, as far as I know, the most beautiful place on earth. I’m making my out again VERY soon. As far as walking and heart problems, I think I got that under control. I may be a little (OK, maybe a little but more than a little) overweight, but this “old” Soldier still has got what it takes and is, by no means whatsoever, considered meek.
          I tell you what though, I’ll go straight back to my WWWH, take a photo with the family, and hang it above the fireplace as soon as I get back home.

          • @ Joe Yes, family is first above all, but the treasure chest chase has nothing to do with adventure, at least I do not think. The poem is an illusion. Do not think you are seeing what you are watching. The poem takes you inside your mind’s fantasies. Most of us will not get what WWWH is because of what we want to believe. That’s why I think we are at a disadvantage and Fenn knows this. It is my opinion that if a person would have their brain erased of all previous knowledge since infancy she, or he would be able to find out what it is. I know what I am saying is not making any sense but it will when the treasure is found. All this is my opinion. RC.

          • I think I do understand. I’m having trouble “erasing” my mind. It’s running at a hundred miles an hour … constantly, painfully. Especially recently. I’m going again. Starting at what I think WWWH is, then going step by step. This time will be more precise but I’m not sure the ending will be different (although I do have a grand idea). What do you think?

        • Hi JD. I have thought alot about where you can actually start. Because. I have read an email to FF asking him” if
          you were to go back and get the chest would you have to start at the beginning. His response was “I don’t see any other way”. So my thought on this is maybe all the cluse will point you to a place on a map and yet at this place you still use the same cluse but in a smaller scale to take you to the chest. Wich kinda fits with where thinking like a kid would help. Having an imagination like what a kid might think is a canyon.
          Just my thoughts.
          It kinda fits with the double Omega as well being there is two endings. the one on the map and the one at the chest

          • Jw ,

            I recall reading something to that effect also.

            Do you remember where that was at ? If not, I will try to find it .

          • I don’t recall reading it some here. Just my thoughts on it. Not to say some else did not have the same thought before me.

            Another thought I have for the double ending is. Maybe the cluse lead you to a place that you can look back at where you began and from this place standing in a exact spot you can see the blaze at where you started. A place to “reflect” maybe this is why searchers have been so close with only having solved the first 2 cluses. The only way to find the blaze is to look back at it from a exact spot. Like standing or setting on a banco. FF said a memoir and a poem point to one subject and a memoir to me is a reflection or looking back at where you have been. The chest could still be at the end of the path but I still believe the cluse will take you to a spot with an amazing view. Not somewhere hidden away for a million sunset.

          • JW
            with all that everyone has said including yourself no one but me has gone the direction that f has said to go. The poem has 1 ending and many different ways of getting to there. What did you expect f to say to that question? Did you think he was going to say there are 7 ways to get there after you leave the hoB? The poem only has 1 ending. We all invent multiple endings to fit our solves. Yes f did say it wasn’t going to be easy but it wasn’t impossible. He is the type of man that “wants” us to use our minds to figure it out. That’s what he is showing all of us, that if you stop using your mind then you start dying a little each day. He has told everyone what he has been doing thru his life to keep him to the ripe age of 85 so far. I’ve seen it work with my own father, he had to be doing something everyday or he said he felt useless. Just like Forrest did and my dad is 92 years old. Forrest isn’t just putting a poem and a TC out there for 1 person, he is trying to get messages out there to all. So, while you are working on the poem (and everyone else) remember that F wants everyone off of the couches and out doing stuff with the family and by yourselves if need be. He is just keeping everyone young.
            Good Luck with your solves and BOTG
            Stay safe
            Timothy…IMHO (62yrs old)

          • Yes there is one ending. Maybe I should have worded it differently. because I believe there are double meanings to alot of the cluse but still ending in the same place. Not necessarily two endings.
            And yes FF wanted to get people off the couch he would have included the rocky mountains in Canada if he would of realized they were not included in the map.

          • Timothy since your the only one doing what FF has said. stay on your righteous path. I’m not saying anything I say is right or correct I have not found the chest. I am simply putting my thoughts out there and if some chooses to find them helpful then so be it. The last thing I want is to tell people how they should interpret things.

          • Timothy,
            We all can think what we want…
            You said; “with all that everyone has said including yourself no one but me has gone the direction that f has said to go.”

            Maybe I reading this wrong… are you actually saying you know the solve? What is it you are implying, “no one but me”?

            You said; ” The poem has 1 ending and many different ways of getting to there. What did you expect f to say to that question?”

            Well, fenn did say something to the effect that Jw mentioned. For fenn to deliberately say it, and you say there are many different way to get there, wouldn’t that be misleading on fenn’s part if true?

            You said, ” …He has told everyone what he has been doing thru his life to keep him to the ripe age of 85 so far. I’ve seen it work with my own father,…”

            Well, without major medical intervention, fenn could have surely past, having made it to the rip old age of 58. [ and it’s great to hear your pop 92… bet he has some stories to tell ]

            But just like Jw, are you not doing exactly the same… simply speculating. But along the way of speculating, your’re dismissing some of fenn’s comments as possibly misleading [ fenn could have just ignore the question but he ‘chose’ to answer it the way he did ] and tidbit of facts [ fenn’s medical condition ] to match your assumptions?

            However, I don’t see Jw throwing away / dismissing or changing the after the fact comments. More in lines with, thoughts of “WhatIf”

            My dollers worth. imo.

    • Jw ,

      You would be surprised to know how close your thoughts mirror my own. Not totally, but close.

      Keep chasing the reflection . . .

    • Timothy ,

      With all due respect, how do you know which direction I have gone, seeing that I have never published my solve, nor any of the descriptive details thereof ?

    • In the exchange that JCM posted above, there are a couple of things that I see.

      Keep in mind that I am in no way implying that I am correct, only that this is how I read the above Q&A.

      Curtis asked if f followed the same “path” that is described in the poem. Curtis wanted to know if f had physically taken the same route that is described in the poem.

      Forrest did not answer that part of the question.

      The second part of Curtis’ question asked if f was able to “skip” some of the steps (clues, directions) by being familiar with the area.

      Forrest did not answer this part of the question either.

      What Forrest did do, was recognize what Curtis was getting at and, in true Fenn fashion, answered accordingly. F knew that “steps” meant clues.

      The clues should be followed in order Curtis. You can’t start in the middle of the poem . . .

      “There is no other way . . .” has nothing to do with there not being more than one physical approach that will put you in the right area but rather, that there is no other approach that will put you at the chest, other than following the clues in order.

      “There is no other way . . .” means that you are not going to figure it out by starting anywhere other than where the poem tells you to start, and then following those directives in order.

      And, having started at the right spot, and following the clues in order, chances are, that you will wind up where you started and “know” the place for the first time.

      Curtis was looking for a possible short-cut. There are no short-cuts.

      Interpretation and perception is everything.

      It’s what you know for sure, that just ain’t so.

      The above is simply my take on things.

      • To clarify, f knew exactly where he planned on hiding the chest from the very moment that the thought occurred to him.
        Only afterwards, did he begin to think about how to formulate clues that would lead a searcher to that spot.
        So, of course he could most likely go directly to the spot without taking the same path that the clues describe.

        We can’t do that because we have no way of knowing where that spot is without following the clues that will lead us there, precisely.

        Again, just my take.

      • RT,

        How we have fun dissecting fenn’s words no matter in a comment, Q&A or interview etc.
        I agree with your Analysis if looking at it just that way. [ that Forrest didn’t answer either part of the question, when looking at it the way you explained ]

        How about this; Fenn did answer the question and both parts… just not in order as it was presented.

        ~ 2nd part of the question; “..or were you able to skip some of the steps because of your familiarity with the area?
        ~ 1st part of the answer; “The clues should be followed in order…”

        ~ 1st part of the question; ” did you take the same path that is described in the poem,…”
        ~ 2nd part of the answer; “There is no other way to my knowlege.f ” [side note; knowledge is missing the D, again ]

        So instead of, as you said;
        Forrest did not answer that part of the question.
        Forrest did not answer this part of the question either.

        I think fenn answered both sections of the question. Just not in order the question was presented.

        Fun thing is… we could be correct or wrong, depending on how we read it.

        • Seeker ,

          Nice ! I like that.

          That fits perfect with the mirror / reflection theory.

          Imagine :

          question 1 = A
          question 2 = B

          answer 1 = B
          answer 2 = A

          That gives us . . . AB/BA.
          There’s that reflection/mirror again . . .

          Gotta go, TIDE’s on a ROLL.

          • I just wish that mirror could talk.
            Mirror mirror on the wall, what the @!$# is it all.

  53. https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/14/91.119

    So lets say I’m a pilot flying down a canyon looking for evidence of first peoples (blazes) and considering whether i am flying below the regulated minimum safe altitude for the area. What is the altitude above ground level in the canyon that I can legally fly without intending to land? Does it matter if there is a paved road in the canyon? Where would I be most concerned that someone might see my registration number on my fuselage and report me? What is the history of this regulation? When was it last updated? What known first people sites are in the area? Could this area be associated with the routes which populated the 14 thousand year old sites recently found in South America or other overwintering sites?

    • Change of plans. I leave this afternoon with three family members (three generations) My step-son will meet us at the site tomorrow at about noon. I know better than to say, “I know exactly where it is.”…But I can think it. If I am lucky, I certainly will publish it all, at the right time.

      Thanks for thinking of me. A DREAMER – JDA

      • Enjoy the chase JDA! A picture or two of your journey to share here would be nice. Be safe.

        • Thanks PD and Hear me all. Four generations on an adventure. How much more fun can a Great GradPa have?

          She is three+, and will go to the site. IF we find it, it will prove that a child can go to where the treasure is secreted.


          • Whether you find the treasure chest or not, you’re going to have a grand time. Be sure to stop off at an ice cream shop for the three year old. She’ll love you for it. You’ll remember it, too. 🙂

          • Funny that you mention ice cream PD. On the way, there is a place that sells SQUARE ice cream cones. I almost always stop, and will for sure today, and tomorrow coming back. JDA

      • Hey JDA,
        Why not go there and show Jake where it is? I know he want you too. Whatever you do enjoy your trip and be safe “All of you guys”. That many guys in the backwoods, reminds me of a movie. Hmmmm, Oh yea, oops never mind.

  54. I kept thinking about how F talks about getting searchers of the couch…and for the first time looked up couch. I was surprised at its original use (1300’s) as a verb..”to overlay with gold, inlay”, “to lay down, to put to bed, place, arrange”, this ultimately came from “to lay down with ones head up” or “to put into words, to paint in gold”. The modern “couch” as a noun is so because it has the “head only raised and only half a back” once you get to sofa you add in the arms and on and on…

    what seems so interesting to me is fs use of getting us off the couch and into the mountains….again a circular logic, but ultimately almost just like saying hes trying to get the his words and gold literally “off the page and out of our heads and into reality” Yes I know we already knew that’s what he was saying anyhow….but I had not realized, yet again, how precisely he had chosen the word “couch”. kinda kool whatever head or tail one chooses to make out of it.

    • you are the first to mention the def of couch. I looked it up 3 yrs ago and thought WOW…pretty cool ms jonsey…

    • Jonsey,
      I never look up the meanings of couch, you taught me something new, so that was a good start for a today.
      This is a great example of how ‘straightforward’ is not as ‘simple’ as some may want to believe. That’s not a dig or downing… It is just a reality to fenn’s perspective or word usage, to what we think they are.
      “The poem in my book is something that I changed over and over again. When you read the poem it looks like just simple words there. But I guarantee you that I worked on that. I felt like an architect drawing that poem.”

      “…looks like just simple words there…” imo this is our the rabbit hole. A desire to think straightforward mean simple.

      For curiosity sake, I did a fast look see at the definition of couch.
      *a long upholstered piece of furniture for several people to sit on.
      *express (something) in language of a specified style.
      *lie down
      [ well, that sounds noting like your extended research, right?]
      This is the reason imo, the poem is difficult but not impossible. Dedication is needed to take the extra steps to understand words meanings,usages and definitions. “all the information… is in the poem”
      People “over complicate” by knowing, well, a bunch of other crap.
      People “over simplify” the clues.

      Did fenn work on the poem everyday and night for 15 years? I highly doubt that, but I think he dedicated the time wisely to perfect the poem exactly the way he desired.
      And imo, that is why the poem looks like simple words… so we fool ourselves to believe Canyon is just a big hole, or too far to walk must be a physical distance we need to guess at, or the first clue must be wwwh because begin is telling us that.

      it’s not what you think it is, it’s what I can make you think it is.
      It’s not who you are, it’s who they think you are.

      LOL …get off the couch and the electric devices… and here we are.

          • After thousands of blog comments, emails, posted solves, Forrest creates scrapbook 62 and basically says: Good research materials are TTOTC, Google Earth and/or a good map. This is April 2014(start of a new search season)
            This scrapbook reined me in literally. I was out in space somewhere with research tangents. That is when I became aware that the Poem -Book, Book -Poem relationship was vital(for me). I also became aware that(for me) Google Earth is my friend. Access to relevant maps also became necessary. Merriam Webster has been a dear friend for as long as I can recall, so that was already in my formula.
            Seeker, I have either woven a very peculiar web, or I have discovered some very interesting relationships within the lines of The Poem, and also in TTOTC. Definitions per se, kind of. Interpretations and innuendos are more where I would put my money…that’s what I was “meaning”.

          • I personally like everything you stated Ken. Especially how the relationship to the book and the poem might work.
            Even the use of GE.
            What I took from that part of the comment was; GE is a great tool because of it’s capability of being many types of maps in one. Visual land map [ or real to life, sorta ] Topo, road, waterway etc. etc. a detailed map of maps if you will… even the capability to remove labels, all without needing a garage size space for paper maps.
            That’s what I got from the “and / or” part of fenn’s comment.

            When it comes to words… I don’t stay with one particular source. I tend to use many. There was one site that show how a word works in many usages. Put Unfortunately when my old computer crashed, I lost the site and have not found it since. It was designed like the ‘family tree’ with usages of the words branching off. I miss the page.

            Thanks for the comeback.

  55. and with that…I will say that the bronze box was also “placed” sharply and exactly “Somewhere in the Mountains North of Santa Fe”


  56. OK everyone, I’m here! I did a little field research today – well, more like a family outing – and think I back pedaled a bit. Well, I took the family for some pizza afterwards – I was in the mood for ice cream after reading these posts – but do not really know where to find some. While there, we had talked through everything and lo and behold, found out what we we’ve done wrong in past searches. I was almost back to the drawing board, but my sister – who just joined me – stepped up her treasure hunting game! We actually tried to stay in the area to search again but we have to get the little kiddos back to school on Monday…sore legs and all!! What doesn’t kill them will make the stronger, I suppose.

    I am gearing up for another run at it later this week though. Trying to get my Dad to come and join from Texas. He’s the one who actually introduced me to the poem. We’ll see if I can “get him off his couch”. Just kidding. He’s a good dude.

    Thanks for the posts everyone. I think I learn a lot from everyone – what to do AND what not to do.

    Good luck to all!

    • Sounds like you had a good time Joe,
      Do you live in one of the 4 states or just close by?
      So what have you bee doing wrong in the search besides not finding the chest?

      • I’m not sure what I’m doing wrong. Perhaps just over/underthinking it a bit.

        I’ve come to a conclusion though:

        Don’t think – Just act. If I’m acting, then I’m not thinking.

        Have you had the same experience in your chase?
        Has anyone?

        • Joe,
          Don’t listen to us… listen to the guy who started it all. We have thought, ideas, suggestion, conversations and even buck heads once in awhile… However, fenn has given us guidance of how we should proceed in his mind. Use that to your advantage.
          These are just two comments fenn has stated [there are many];

          “There’s a lot brain power being expended on the blogs by some pretty bright people Jenny, and it seems they are having fun. But the great preponderance of searchers don’t comment publically. Very few tell me exactly where they are looking so I don’t know how close they are to the treasure. I’ve said searchers should go back to the poem so many times that I don’t want to say it again here. ff ”

          “The person that finds it, is going to be a person who thinks and plans and has an analytical mind and uses logic, not someone who has a hunch.” 

  57. On Gambling…..be it poker or roulette or whatever….F mentions not knowing how to nod and shake his head at the same time. Knowing that nod means to bow, and thinking of ,”shake” like to ‘shake your elbow” or “shake the dice” ie “take a chance”…..the only way I can see one both nodding and shaking at the same would be to “shake” while “nodding” aka “looking quickly down”…..maybe watching those tall grasses in a marvel gaze, or maybe playing a crazy game of chance ala “make your move then move on”….which couldn’t be done on a “hunch” aka “couch”. Sorry if this is as difficult to read as it is to write but I’m trying to share something in my mind that hasn’t exactly percolated into words yet still just a hodgepodge of juxtaposed scrambled eggs. Somehow, when you look down you take a gambol ending with either marvel gaze, take the chest and the “rest” (answer to where one goes in peace) or your quest will cease? With roulette…theres a sort of green room in the middle though. Maybe there? In the OO? Where the coin toss lands on its edge despite all odds? Can you actually bet on that spot? Or just red and black?

    I guess there is always “option C” as well where one can also both nod and shake simultaneously…..but I’ll take a gamble that doing the Chicken Dance isn’t the correct solution.

    …….or is it?

    • *I’d be a liar if I said I’d never looked at the picture of the marble game a bit like a roulette wheel, but, by nature had to add in a little bit of pool to see where the balls would actually ‘rest’….but then goofy appeared in my dreams and reminded my I was probably back in the land of the mystics so I returned to home base quickly, in the telling

    • maybe he’s playing the game of “Life”, and he’s just spinning a multi-colored numbered wheel. His head movement when watching the wheel. Maybe the spider woman knows, maybe the Hopi can give a hint.

  58. Does anyone recall when it went from the “mountains north of Santa fe” to the “Rocky mountains north of santa fe”

    • Jw-
      I can only guess…I would say in the beginning of 2012. I remember that in the beginning there were people looking in the Adirondacks and the Appalachians as well as the Rockies. He also didn’t eliminate Canada or even Europe for quite awhile.

  59. Has anyone thought that Fenn and his Chase is a lot like Willy Wonka?

    He may be looking for an Heir of sorts to continue his work after he’s gone. It seems like he wants to find someone like himself that will not be stopped by a river or a barbed wire fence (or a ‘no tresspassing’ sign) to reach his goals.

    Think about it. He sold his gallery, but the treasure is the candy factory and the Wetherill bracelet is the Everlasting Gobstopper. The person who succeeds and returns the bracelet will prove their loyalty and integrity to Mr Fenn.

    Maybe he just wants an honest person to scatter his ashes at the ‘secret spot’ once he has passed, without revealing it’s location. It makes some sense does it not? Just a thought.

    Sincerely. -Randawg.

    • Yes I thought the same thing. Maybe it’s some place that he discovered something but knows how much work it takes being his knowledge of the work it toke on the San lazaro. He might not want to just hand it over to just anybody but some like him. Maybe that is why he has done it tired.

    • Randawg ,

      That would certainly give a new meaning to “just take the chest and leave my bones”.

  60. All,

    I may be over-stating the obvious, but I have been trying to resolve a conundrum within Forrest response to two similar questions from searchers.


    Question posted 7/1/2014:

    Dear Forrest,

    You tell us that we should find “where warm waters halt” before trying to solve any of the other clues. Imagining that we haven’t seen the rest of the poem, and all we have to go on is:

    a. “begin it where warm waters halt” and
    b. “somewhere in the mountains north of Santa Fe”

    Do you think that we can confidently determine the starting place for your treasure trail? ~ Steve

    No, if all you have to go on are those two clues you cannot proceed with confidence. Look at it this way. If you were making a cake and you left out a few ingredients, would you achieve your goal?f

    Your question reminds me of another: You leave home and walk a straight line for a mile, turn 90 degrees left and walk a curved line for a mile and shoot a bear. Then you turn 90 degrees left again and walk a straight line back to your home. What color is the bear?f


    Posted on August 12, 2014 by Jenny Kile

    Someone unfamiliar with your poem receives a message that says “meet me where warm waters halt, somewhere in the mountains north of Santa Fe”. Would they be able to work out where to go? If they can’t, would they need the whole poem, another stanza, or just a line or word to help them on their way? ~Phil Bayman

    There are a few words in the poem that are not useful in finding the treasure Phil, but it is risky to discount any of them. You over simplify the clues. There are many places in the Rocky Mountains where warm waters halt, and nearly all of them are north of Santa Fe. Look at the big picture, there are no short cuts. f


    It appears that both of these questions from searchers (interestingly both posted within a month of one another) are similar and both of Forrest’s responses makes me believe that we are definitely missing something (an ingredient) from the line “Begin it where warm waters halt,” that will enable us to identify the correct starting “place”.

    All of the information you need to find the treasure is in the poem.f

    So if this statement from Forrest is true, and per Forrest’s responses that you cannot confidently decipher WWWH from just the information in the line “Begin it where warm waters halt”, then should we not be trying to establish the “where” in which Forrest’s interpretation of WWH is located first and the answer to that MUST be found within the poem, it is that missing “ingredient”.

    Focus on the “where” and not the “waters”:

    I’m sure we can all agree that there are many different interpretations of what WWH could be but, what isn’t yet clearly obvious is the “place” where Forrest’s interpretation of WWH resides. So who cares what “warm waters halt” is the “where” it is, is the important part and once we identify the correct “where” well, then the warm waters halt interpretation should become more apparent.

    Warm waters halt is not the first clue, the where is.


    • LitterateOne ,

      Looking at it from my perspective, you are 100% , entirely correct.
      The poem told me precisely wwwh, and I’m not just talking about a state. I am talking about a precise location.

      And there are a BOATLOAD of hints in TTOTC that confirm it once you figure it out.

      f said he felt like an architect writing the poem. An architect is the guy drawing up the blueprints.

      “Blueprint” is synonymous with “big picture”.

      The “big picture” is the POEM. One piece of jigsaw does not make a puzzle.

      I don’t have the chest, so we all know what all of the above is . . .

      • ROLL TIDE,

        I agree with your mention that the “big picture” is the poem and the “missing ingredient” that Forrest mentions MUST be found within the poem.


    • Additionally, the poem wording suggests the waters both “halt” and “take”. So, say one made the “where” a verb. Aka “to ferry” (to ferry something down a canyon)(also note a ferry would then be too far to walk) Below the home of Brown would then complete the stanza FINALLY with a noun or a spot ala Browns Ferry with all lines solving as “ferry”…..however the “where” is only a “where” in a word. Maybe like the blaze is only a blaze in a word? Either way I do think it’s kinda important that one solves where for where both “halt AND take” occur “coconcurrently” course. In this case the “where” is an action word/verb. Not a place. So it kinda reconciles the statement. Just an example not saying anything about Browns Ferry just using to illustrate a point or offer an idea.

    • Liter81,
      Some good thoughts. Although to find out the “where” don’t we need to know what wwh refers to, to even understand were the supposed correct one might be?

      Lets, just for fun have a second look at the Q&A’s.
      First Q&A in part; “You tell us that we should find “where warm waters halt” before trying to solve any of the other clues.”

      To my knowledge that has never been stated by fenn, telling us “find wwh before trying to solve any other clues”.
      Fenn answers ‘no’ if all you have is those two clues… now seeing the N. of SF was mentioned prior to wwwh… That would make it a prior clue, Yes?
      Then fenn adds; If you leave out ingredients … would you achieve your goal? So, could there be something else needed to be know between a ‘fact’ ~ N of SF and a clue “where” wwh? There is a full stanza there.
      Which bring me to the second Q&A.
      In part; “There are a few words in the poem that are not useful in finding the treasure Phil, but it is risky to discount any of them.”

      Isn’t that what we did, in leaving out the entire first stanza? I’ll add, we are also taking “begin” as a place to start at. Why is it needing to be a place and not a piece of information? Our we “over simplifying” Because we heard the poem is straightforward?
      I know of the straightforward comment… have another look at that Q&A, let me know what you think about it. Thanks.

      Now to another little dilemma of mine… fenn stated in the first Q&A ” if all you have to go on are those two clues…” {N. of SF. and wwwh ] when did N of SF become a clue? If ~ “All of the information you need to find the treasure is in the poem.f ”

      My dilemma has always been “… a poem containing 9 clue that if followed precisely will lead…” So is “N. of SF” a needed piece of information that is a must to know? and if so, then do we have 10 clues? I ask because fenn seemingly calls everything a clue ~ not in an outhouse, not in Idaho, Utah, Canada, not in a graveyard etc. all “clues” and then came the useless clue debate.

        • Strawshadow,

          “So I wrote a poem containing 9 clues…”
          “All the information to find the chest is in the poem”
          ““There are hints in my book that will help you with the clues, but a clue will point you toward the treasure chest and a hint will just help you with the clues, if you can understand that.

          Fenn was asked directly in the OH radio interview
          [ paraphrasing ] does some one need to read your book… you don’t need to read my book, you need to decipher the clues… the book will help

          Fenn may have not stated out right, there are “only” 9 clues. But how can we think otherwise?
          Then again, if we count the today show “clues” has clues… we have many more than 9… so I’m confused.

          LOL, and if some searcher are correct, we have 158 SB’s with ‘clues’ in each one, and more ‘clues’ in Q&A etc. Just how many ‘clues’ does it take to figure out where the chest is?

      • And don’t forget this Q&A…

        Q. If in 500 years all a person has is the poem, and no back story: they don’t know “in the rocky mountains north of santa fe” or that there are 9 clues etc. Could a person reasonably just use the words in the poem and find your treasure chest?
        Thank you ~Nope
        A. Thank you Nope. Nope. f

        Just my opinion…

        All of the information = nine clues in the poem.

        Whenever “all you need is the poem” goes away, so do the majority of contradictions and confusion… at least for me. And I have looked very carefully at both sides of this topic.

        • but nope asked about only the “words” in the poem. That doesn’t account for the whole poem. Nope should have worded that different to include the entire poem, because the entire poem is what contains the 9 clues. Actually, when you think about it, the poem only contains one clue, the last one. Who cares what all the others are, right. That clue is not in very close proximity to a human trail. Since you won’t find the blaze before WWWH, confirms the idea of a path, one way in. WWWH, canyon down, a general area/BOTG clue, then the blaze. Actually, WWWH and the canyon down are hints to the path you must take. Just depends on how you define hint/clue. Which, again, doesn’t matter if you have the wrong last clue. We could know what a clue is by his own words, but no one really knows until the chest is found.

        • JCM,

          I think this issue has been talked about at length and the common agreement is that without the back story found within TTOTC and on the web one who finds the poem may not “reasonably” know that there was a hidden treasure. IMO the words in the poem do give us the “where” and once one can correctly identify that “where” the warm water halt location may become more apparent. I am no poem purest by any means, but it could be that simple.


        • Q. If in 500 years all a person has is the poem, and no back story: they don’t know “in the rocky mountains north of santa fe” or that there are 9 clues etc. Could a person reasonably just use the words in the poem and find your treasure chest?
          Thank you ~Nope

          A. Thank you Nope. Nope. F

          Q. Your treasure hunt has inspired people worldwide to discover history, culture and nature, but many people, (even in the US) might be deterred because they don’t live near the Rockies or can’t afford to travel. Should they be deterred? Can a little girl in India, who speaks good English, but only has your poem and a map of the US Rocky Mountains, work out where the treasure is? And would she be confident as she solves each clue, or only confident when she has solved them all?

          A. I wish I had another treasure to hide in the Appalachians. The little girl in India cannot get closer than the first two clues. There are many disabled people who are deeply into maps and geography, and they are having a lot of fun. F

          So, In the first question, it seems that someone who has the Poem only cannot find the chest? And, apparently they cannot even get the first two clues? If they could get the first two clues, from the Poem only, could they not go there and utilize the Poem to decipher the remaining clues…..thus find the chest?

          The LGFI, per Jenny, has only the Poem and a map of the US Rocky Mtns….. Jenny does not stipulate that LGFI also has the back story (“in the rocky mountains north of santa fe” or that there are 9 clues etc.).

          So, how is it that the LGFI can get at least the first two clues (as seems Fenn implied) with nothing more than the Poem and a map????

          Unless, of course, one “assumes” that LGFI has access to the internet, thus has access to the entire backstory?? But, then one would have to “assume” that 500 years from now the same information would be available in some format!

          If solving the first two clues puts one in the vicinity, then it seems that Fenn is saying the Poem and a “map” are all that is required to find the chest……no??

          Assuming anything leads to Confirmation Bias! 🙂

      • Seeker,

        You Said:

        “Although to find out the “where” don’t we need to know what wwh refers to, to even understand were the supposed correct one might be?”

        As I have mentioned there are many interpretations of what “warm waters” are and just as many as to what “halt” means, but I am of the opinion that it matters not what they are as to “where” they are. Once we can Identify the “where” which I believe is found within the poem then Forrest’s interpretation of what “warm waters halt” should become more apparent.

        To illustrate my point I believe that there are to places in the line “Begin it where warm water halt” that we must identify:

        1. The place (look up definition) “where” warm waters halt resides.

        2. The exact spot where Forrest’s interpretation of warm waters halt begins.

        IMO we can only find #2 once we correctly identify #1. Both of the questions posted and Forrest’s responses seems to confirm this theory, that we cannot reasonably move with confidence without more information, information that MUST be found elsewhere in the poem either prior to or following that specific line, but surely within the poem.


        You said:

        Now to another little dilemma of mine… fenn stated in the first Q&A ” if all you have to go on are those two clues…” {N. of SF. and wwwh ] when did N of SF become a clue? If ~ “All of the information you need to find the treasure is in the poem.f ”

        I personally don’t see North of Santa Fe as a clue, the words in the poem give me the “where”, If my interpretation is correct. So North of Santa Fe was not
        required for me to come to my conclusion.


        You said:

        I ask because fenn seemingly calls everything a clue ~ not in an outhouse, not in Idaho, Utah, Canada, not in a graveyard etc. all “clues” and then came the useless clue debate.

        I think it is semantics, which isn’t everything in this chase? If you think the information assists you in narrowing down your search area then to “you” it can be considered a clue. It reminds me of one video of the Today Show when Forrest was asked by a female reporter “how did we convince you to give us another clue”, in which Forrest responded by saying “I don’t have a clue”, I find that answer to be classic Fenn “double speak” some may view that as an answer and to others a statement.


        Remember what Marvin said:

        “The greater part of knowledge is knowing those things not worthy of knowing”


    • LitterateOne – My recipe has several ingredients, including:

      The poem
      Hints in the book
      A word that is key
      A good map
      And using my brain.

      Just my opinion… this whole topic is something I have given significant thought and consideration to. Thanks for your comments.

  61. “Where” is the key word now. So I put ‘begin it where’ into the anagram program and “Grebe” recured in many of the solutions. Such as ‘Grebe The I Win’.
    A couple of days ago I had mentioned Grebe Lake was one of my older solves because it had been mentioned twice in Forrest Fenns stories, and it fits the poem. But I was ready to rule it out because I didn’t see sage in the photos. Now I wonder if Grebe Lake should be “Begin it Where”.

  62. Upthread, Goofy wrote: “I have come to a conclusion/opinion. The searcher has to be at the first two clues to figure out the remainder of the clues.”

    Seeker agreed, saying “I’m pretty sure, a searcher needs to be botg throughout the entire process …”.
    The problem with that line of reasoning is that it ignores what FF has said about the poem, specifically, that everything the searcher needs to find the treasure chest is in the poem.

    He didn’t say … you need to be botg, at some physical location, to find the blaze. He said everything you need, to find the chest, is in the poem.

    Goofy, Seeker … how do you reconcile FF’s comment that the poem is all you need, vs. your assertion that the searcher has to be in the field to find some of the clues?

    Ken (in Texas)

    • ken, the third clue, and the little girl from India. If you are in the line of thinking that the poem is a path, then taking that path will reveal itself when there. The first two clues could be found online, but the third clue, between the lines of canyon down and blaze, must be a BOTG clue, For the simple fact of all those lines are “in general” and not so specific.

      All you need is the poem because the poem is a path with only one way in, as far as he knows. Just like you know you’ll have the first clue correct when you have the chest, you’ll know all the other clues only when you have the chest. Remember, only having the last clue correct is what’s important. The whole poem is finding the chest, which when found, the path you take to retrieve the chest will support nine clues in the poem. So, how do you go in confidence?:), there’s only really one way, Find the “X” on the map. The 24th letter. xisix…

    • Well Ken, I guess it depends on how you look at it. One has to understand what the poem is saying to find the treasure. I don’t see the difference between being on location to figure it out or using a supercomputer to decrypt it or anagram it or crossword it or any of the other myriad of ways folks are trying to figure it out. How are you trying to figure it out?

      Keep in mind his answer to a question on Jenny’s site:

      Q: If in 500 years all a person has is the poem, and no back story: they don’t know “in the rocky mountains north of santa fe” or that there are 9 clues etc. Could a person reasonably just use the words in the poem and find your treasure chest?

      Thank you ~Nope

      A: Thank you Nope. Nope. f

      • I agree with Forrest, Goofy. Without the aid of Google and Google Earth, the poem’s own words would not have been of any help to me on their own. There is definitely research involved in figuring out this thing, most definitely. And, if you include mother nature’s might and man made changes into the mix in the future, that could change the whole ball game all together, along with time itself, and render Google and all other sources of information useless to some extent.

      • Goofy,
        This is one of the better thought provoking Q&A’s… It does seem that, information other than what is worded in the 6 stanza is needed to be known. Such as 9 clues, Mountains N. of SF.
        However, I’m still in thought… like Charlie stated… are the words just simple words? Can there be other factors involved in the design of the poem?

        Examples ~ Not far, but too far to walk to mean stairs / steps to climb or descent. [ even though walking is involved the clue is climb and not distance. and I add, not known of till on site ]
        Then there is my favorite… the capital letters. Are the simply poetic writing add ins, or are they to be used in some manor? Do 6 stanzas, 24 lines, 4 lines in a stanza have something to do with the solve? [ counting or math maybe ]. Could counting words in a single stanza give a piece of information such as elevation level for a clue or clues?
        We are told to have an analytical mind set.

        Some may say this is over complicating, but fenn examples of over complicating seemed very clear as to “outside” sources and information [ knowing head pressure, bible verse, Cracker Jack decoder rings etc… I’m simply wondering, are we “only” to use word information within the poem to solve it? Or is there a blueprint of sorts within the structure of the poem?

        • Howdy Seeker

          when a man has confessed to walking 90miles to Bozeman, any reasonably logical man should somehow ask the healthy question of ‘how far is too far’ for an averagely healthy man ‘to walk’, assuming a ‘man’ ain’t an 86ish year old man, or even given that he is, is that still ‘too far’ for a healthy elderly man to walk?

          I stumblingly question the idea of whether ‘too far to walk’ is an entirely relative (therefore irrelevant) statement, vertical or otherwise, unless it’s somehow impossible to be walked for any distance, by any man, of any age, across any given terrain (?)

          ..when I eventually become a man, I may be more qualified to answer that confusing question – here’s hoping.

          • Hobbit,

            Health and age aside… is too far to walk having anything to do with the act of movement?

            Not far in time is a possibility, which poetically be saying too far to walk as unable to physically go back in time.

            Is begin it where to refer to time?

            The first stanza is past tense… As I have gone…could in there be of past time as well…

            There are a few ways of reading the poem, but attempting to discover a distance physically traveled, distance now becomes a hunch. 92 miles, 10 miles,1600 miles even.

            I try to look at all avenues… and that might be the reason for my gray hair.

          • you make a very valid point Seeker, on perceived distance, as ‘not far’ into the past or future, is by far, impossibly too far to walk.

            (I’ve already totally confused myself already – totally!)

            So, are you thinking (laterally) that ‘too far to walk’, is a direct historical reference to ‘putting in’ below the HOB?

            (which I’m severely doubting is brown trout/bear etc, given its literal lack of a capital B)

            my brain is twitching again, which is only ever a problem when I’m either awake, or thinking to any capacity
            – yes..

          • Hobbit,
            For me History and Historical are slightly different. Historical has to have a reference. Ex. who was president in a given year. History is simply past time or events. Ex. of event a natural occurrence, such as how Earth Quake lake became. or the first humans entered the new world type thinking. Historical to that event would be finding the historical artifact to prove the event. So I fall into a gray area of history to historical when it involves the poem.

            Yet, if you look at the poem as “in time” there are many indicator to suggest this.
            “in there” in time
            “Keep my secret “where” in time
            “New and old” ~ past and present. [ which with a poem, can give word usages double meanings ‘ usages at the same time ]
            “Begin it where” in time
            So can hoB, refer to something of the past and not so much something the present? and “from there” brings us to the present.

            Is this why we need to be wise and “found” the blaze. and could this be the reason why fenn didn’t answer the Q&A is the blaze in the poem or only on site… and took 30 minutes not to answer?
            The blaze might be time related itself?
            Could it be why stanza 5 has the question… why is it I must go? and leave my trove… bringing us to, or suggesting present time.

            Now read the 2nd stanza as past tense… leading the 3rd stanza to present tense. You might see things a bit different. I’m not saying this is correct, just opening myself to the possibilities. A poem is meant solely for the purpose of interpretation. Is this why fenn didn’t simply place 9 clues in the book for us to find, because his directions might be of the past and the present? and we needed to figure that out.

            Just food for the appetite of the brain.

    • Simple easy answer Ken, would be the poem has the “Information” ~ we are not sure how to use that information yet.

      So it’s more than likely imo, the poem and location are a must together. Another way of looking at it, a searcher must see what they need to see, and the only way to see it properly is to know the correct way to read the poem… in regards with ‘move with confidence’ … The poem is designed to “lead” us. I’m still working of the “certain beforehand” part.

      The other obvious answer is … you need to be on site to get to the chest. But that is the end result, and again just common sense.

      • Ken, I need to add…

        You said; “FF has said about the poem, specifically, that everything the searcher needs to find the treasure chest is in the poem.”

        Fenn didn’t say “everything” a searcher needs is in the poem. “All” the information is just that… information. We still need to wiggle out that information, and fenn has suggested tools to know and use… Good map, right map, a comprehensive knowledge of geography might help, and the book will help. How much any of those things will help is still debatable, but they are not in the poem.
        Neither is knowing in the mountains N of SF or even fenn’s rainbow.

        The line just prior to the poem seems to be more important then just an intro. If we never knew we were to be in the “mountains” NYC would be in play. Islands of the coast of Washington state would be in play. IMO there is a reason fenn mentioned the mountains N of SF… it was to mean the Rockies [something we should have figured out.] Fenn never stated the mountains were actually the RM’s until years later… it as to make one think… why didn’t he say the name of the range in the first place?
        Another thought is, why did fenn just say SF. and not NM? And why after all the eliminations fenn has given us, Not in Nevada, Idaho ~ [ which contains part of the RM’s ] and Utah as well, and left the four remaining stated. Even after Canada was shot down [ apparently overlooked by fenn ] . Is there something we need to consider about those four states [ the area ] that will help with a clue or clues?

        Trust me when I say, I’m a big advocate of the poem… but we’re all are missing something. I’m not saying the book is chuck full of hundreds of hints / clues, but that sentence [ intro ] prior to the poem might be more important in helping the solve then we think.

        IMO only, I would go as far as to think, it could be an actual clue.

        • Seeker … beware of popular ideas. The herd mentality likes to move in some given direction, as with responses to my above message. There’s conceptual safety in numbers. But …

          FF never said you had to be botg to determine subsequent clues. He said all you need is the poem.

          Searchers are forever trying to run away from the poem … to GE, to the scrapbooks, to TTOTC, and now to some botg physical site, with just a couple of clues.

          How can anyone have any confidence in 2 supposedly figured-out clues?

          Summary … focus on the poem, not popular ideas by popular posters. The poem will lead to the treasure, not TTOTC, scrapbooks, GE, or (in my opinion) popular but dubious distracting ideas.

          I could be wrong of course.

          Ken (in Texas) 🙂

          • I apologize in advance for what I’m about to say, but I feel I need to say it.

            Ken, you are absolutely correct, IMO. In my recent search, I was able to verify to my own satisfaction that I got at least 90% of the way to the chest. (I know that that means zilch in the grand scheme of things, but it was a major milestone for me.) It had nothing to do with popular ideas expressed on this blog, nothing to do with US or world history, nothing to do with books or artworks, and everything to do with the poem and geography.

            I’m amazed that people are still talking round and round the same old concepts and failing to dig into what the poem really has to offer. It’s almost as if it’s more comfortable not to look the poem full in the face.

            I know most people won’t believe me, but the poem offers the means to check your progress. If you’re unable to verify your situation, you probably haven’t even gotten off the starting block yet.

          • I apologize in advance, apparently that makes it OK………Vox, it’s called confirmation bias. What I’m surprised at is how many know they are correct without the chest. They always say the same thing; I can’t be wrong, too much fits perfectly.

            They won’t or can’t go get the chest, and they won’t publish their perfect solution. So we have to sit here and listen to a blowhard tell us how wrong we are.

          • Goofy, I fully accept the reprimand. I knew that I would incur wrath for posting that, and, no, the apology doesn’t make it OK. But if it jogs one person to take a fresh look at the poem, then to me it’s worth it.

            The reason for not publishing the solve is for the reason that it relies heavily on something that has not yet been discussed (to my knowledge). IMO (and mine only) it is not something to hand out for general consumption on a public blog where it could give a huge advantage to non-contributors. That’s not meant to sound elitist or condescending, but BOTG searchers are, for the most part, the ones who give this and other blogs their raison d’etre.

          • Ken,

            You said: ‘FF never said you had to be botg to determine subsequent clues. He said all you need is the poem.’

            I suppose a book could probably be written about all the things Forrest has ‘not’ said about the poem. Did you really expect that all subtle nuances of solving the poem were given? Aren’t we expected to fill in some of the blanks?

            I believe all the information you need is in the poem but he also said the successful searcher will have used their imagination.

            Here’s an example: Suppose Heavy Loads and Water High is a reference to an elephant shaped rock. He expects us to use our imagination to understand that. But because this rock is not listed on a map you have to be somewhere ‘below the HOB’ to physically see it and confirm you are on the proper path.

            This still satisfy the premise that the required info is in the poem, we just add physical presence and imagination to see how to use it. This doesn’t violate anything he has said.

            Your point about studying the poem is excellent advice….but don’t limit yourself to different ways of working the clues within the guidelines F has provided.

          • No apparently vox believes there are requirements to finding the chest. Those that haven’t contributed or had both YET, aren’t deserving of findingt the prize. That’s a wee bit selfish, is it not???

        • Seeker…do you see wedge-shaped pieces of a round pie in the shape of the Rocky Mountains? Do you see a pie center? Do you see a straight line from Montana to Sante Fe where a wedge used to be? Do you know where warm or hot waters are found in numerous places on that line? Do you see pie wedges missing?

          • Ok Mensan-Fennsan.
            I read this a couple time and I have truly no clue of what your saying / implying or even why you’re asking me.
            Wedge shape pieces where? line from what? Number of place along what line?
            In my mind, the book, a map, the poem, the US Constitution … lol help me out, apparently I’m having a brain fart.

        • Seeker, your reference to: “that sentence prior to the poem…” made me think about it, and the sentence just prior to it, which is: “I figured it was time to act.”
          In the past, I’ve used the book to strain out and analyze all the’window’ references because it seemed to be a theme word. I did it again with all the ‘brown’ references for the same reason. I posted my thoughts on them somewhere in the way-back, and now, because of your comment, I think I will round-up all the ‘time/date/clock” references since they too seem to occur often as hinty non-sequiters. Why was $6.50 an hour important to the story? Did young Fenn really wash dishes for 16 hours a day? He threw a book in the trash on top of TIME? etc. My armchair is looking forward to another good autumn. Thanks, OS

          • OS2, My bad. That should have said “sentences” plural. I didn’t know what else to call them, so I settled on introduction to the poem in the book.
            I can’t argue your examples, that maybe the way to go. But I was thinking more generic of time itself… The idea of the poem referring about time and that is how the poem opens up itself to be read as. But maybe there is an exact point in time that would be hinted in the book.

        • @ Ken, you said; “Seeker … beware of popular ideas.” lol… I might be the least person here that follows trends or popular ideas. I also won’t allow my self to get caught up in a single idea… that is why I dissect every logical possibility I can thing of, and why I got on the blog in the first place… to hear other thought to kick start a thought of my own. Colorkid gave a good example of how botg is needed… we may need to see a clue for what it actually is. Good to see ya Kid.

          @ B. Heston… yep. Unfortunately this time of year the egos get bigger, and so do the excuse. For a searcher to degrade another[s] who may just be shy and not wanting to blog, or another[s] who is of physical limits, or financially trapped, but still would like to be a part of the game… to say they are not deserving because they are not following his logic of deserving is pure ignorance. period

          • Seeker, I don’t know if it will be an exact point in o’clock time, but I do think it will be at an intersection when the light changes. (That was a Fenn invention if the obits I read are true)

            Is o’clock Irish kin to o’mega?

      • Seeker

        that may well be a plausible theory (earlier), especially considering Forrests comment about the clues referring to places that existed when he was a kid.

        [“Q: Can the blaze be pre-determined by the poem or can it only be determined at the search area?- becky

        Becky, you are a rascal to ask that question and I have been sitting here for about fifteen minutes trying to decide what to say. Well, it has been thirty minutes now and I think I’ll pass on the question. Sorry.f” ]

        I have often wondered whether the blaze actually exists in the present, as a physical object, or whether he is referring to some historical event or feature from the past, – it seems perplexing to me as to how a treasure hunter could come within approx 200 feet of the TC, yet not see the blaze.

        so what if the blaze can only be located in a book or on a good map (of local history?), and “look quickly down” to mean look down the relevant page in order to identify its precise location?

        “wise’ may well refer to a correct solve up to the point of discovering the (elusive) blaze,
        or it may, on the other hand, refer singularly to specific research in identifying where and/or what the blaze actually is.

        For instance, if Forrest is familiar with land surveying (was he ever a practicing surveyor?), is it plausible that the blaze (a mark) could be an old survey mark, (a buried iron tube or spike) that is registered on an historical survey plan?
        – therefore able to be pre-determined.

        too many ‘what ifs’ and not enough ‘where is’s’ for my liking though
        – is there a simpler version of the poem floating about perchance ..anyone??

  63. Well, I am back from another beautiful trip, empty-handed. There were four generations of us on this trip, and it was wonderful, but no treasure.

    Unless something happens, I guess that that was my last trip for this search season.

    I will probably return to the base of my waterfall, and not the top. I just feel that it is somewhere near the base. I will lick my wounds, re-evaluate and try to figure out what line in the poem I am not interpreting correctly.

    I just feel that it HAS to be there somewhere. Like most of you feel, “It all fits. It is TOO perfect to toss aside.”

    What a THRILL it has been so far.

    TRY to STAY SAFE out there folks, and GOOD LUCK – JDA

    • JDA… I think you stated before but are you a New Mexico Fan or went to the other states or borders to find your riches?..Aarrgghh

        • Hey JDA
          Did Kedar’s mom say how long she will be searching and do you happen to know where??? Also, how did it go with your searching over the weekend???

          • See my post above – thanks – No Treasure. Kedar questions – didn’t she say she turned back – needs to break trip up into two day parcels?
            I may be wrong. Do not know where she searches – JDA

    • Hey JDA
      Well as all of us have learned, there is something and I mean something that we are over looking or as you have said JD, a misinterpretation of a line or two. I have 1 more trip that I would like to make this year and now that my wife is retired we will start making preparations to make our last trip this year. But a lot of what I’m looking for will be based on Kedar’s mom, we seem to be searching in very close proximity to each other so I’m trying to wait to hear from her…
      Best of luck to all, be safe winter’s knocking on the door

      • Hey Timothy!

        I really don’t think we are in the same area or in close proximity. Considering I don’t say anything where I’m looking, I have to wonder what makes you think that we are near each other.

        Getting ready to try and leave this weekend. We made a new, more manageable plan. My husband was right, I wouldn’t find it on the second try, (ha ha only got an hour from home last time, lol) but this will be the third try, so I’m feeling better about it.

        Happy Hunting in all that you seek.

        • Hey Kedars mom
          There has been a few things you’ve said that I believe we are closer than you think. If everything works out ok with our Boston then my wife and I are also leaving this weekend….
          I think you might believe a little that we are closer than you think by the way you asked me to pick up your red walking stick. We have waited for this weekend for a specific reason and if we are close then you will understand why we waited for this weekend.
          Either way we wish you all the best, and who knows, we might see you in the wood…
          if your intrested my email is tim.alkire82@gmail.com

          • Timothy it is an orange hiking pole. If you think you know where it’s at, then kudos to you. : )

            I sure hope you have a great time this weekend.

    • Goofy ,

      I can think of numerous reasons why “they won’t or can’t go get the chest”. None of us can honestly pretend to know the personal circumstances of anyone other than ourselves. So, I can’t see where your “mhmm, sure, yeah right” attitude would carry any weight at all without knowing those person’s station in life intimately.

      And, as far as declining to publish their “perfect solves” . . . Who does that ???

      If I think that my solve is perfect, I certainly am not going to publicize it before exhausting everything at my disposal. And before you cite the rules to me about discouraging others from posting anything, I am saying what >>> I <<>> others <<< should or should not do.

      And as far as discouraging others from posting, I feel like sarcasm and name-calling is probably the biggest detriment there is.

      Voxpops has shown an abundance of confidence, having spent tens of thousands of dollars in airfare alone.

      Confidence is a HUGE necessity in this chase.

      Name-calling is not.

      • Edit . . .

        The above should have read >>> I <<>> others <<< should or should not do.

        The "not" got tangled up in knots somewhere.

      • Roll, it’s fine if he can’t go get it, it’s also fine if he doesn’t want to publish it and it’s fine if he wants to contribute to the conversation. It’s not fine to brag about how smart he is for figuring it out and how dumb we are for not seeing it his way without saying why.

        Over the years we’ve had hundreds that have it figured out and waste our time with endless boasting. If you newbies would get off your high horses and actually do a little research you would know this.

        • Goofy ,

          So, how long does a “newbie” have to be here and how many posts does a “newbie” have to contribute before he earns a little R-E-S-P-E-C-T ?

          Will I get a little blue ribbon or something, maybe a gold star, to show when I have arrived ?

          And don’t even scold me with the tired-old “DO SOME RESEARCH” thing goofy, I’ve did tons of it.

          But, tell me, while we’re here, where has “research” gotten YOU in the last how many(?) years ?

          Can you say with certainty that you are any closer to the chest than this noob is ?

    • Glad you guys made it back safe.
      The chest is still safe & is laughing at all of us.
      There is still a little time left this year to pull it of for you & others.
      I know the feeling of thinking things fit too perfect but there is no such thing as perfect. Trial an error & we never know about the error part.

    • JDA ,

      I made a comment on the wwwh thread this morning but, I’ll share a piece of it here with you.

      “Warm” also has a meaning of “white”.

      “White” waters would definitely fit below the waterfall, better than above ?

    • JDA did you look over the edge, at the top of the water fall ? the chest is on a rock ledge , just below the top of a water fall IMO

  64. Just something I have noticed and maybe I am not right…. but it seems most of the searchers i have seen are NOT from the Rockies …. I wonder why? if I lived closer I would be searching every weekend.

    Maybe they just don’t like blogs….huh

      • Its not an insult by no means just an observation… We all have duties, and finance problems, but time is on their side, they live near by potential search sites. Where they can go out in 1 afternoon and possibly take 2 trips to the area… if you know what I mean

        • 1idwillhe
          I know exactly what you mean and I will tell you that you are wrong. But you would have to go there to find out why you are wrong. One clue just for you, I can see you where ever you will be. For you it will be impossible but I just hide in the trees!!!
          If you can figure that out then you will know why you shouldn’t be where you think you should be…

    • aha 1idwillhe,
      How do you know that they aren’t searching every weekend???
      They can all keep a secret by not posting but just “LURKING” around for info….
      Timothy ….IMHO
      Best of luck, be safe

      • I GOT IT !!! Aaarrgghh you the guy the operates Google Earth??..lol

        Be Safe… what state you lurking, I mean looking in for the chest ??

    • I think there’s probably a couple of reasons. The first is the basic mathematics of it. The search corridor is less densely populated than a lot of the rest of the country. So look at it like this. There is a percentage of the population that have even heard about the treasure, then a percentage of those who have gone any further than just spending a little bit of time looking into it, then a percentage of those who are committed enough to follow the blog, then a percentage of those who contribute regularly and so on. So if you look at that ever decreasing number while also remembering that you have less of a population base in the area you can see that the number of regular contributors is going to be relatively small.

      Then there is the fact that most of the people that are very close to search areas are mostly in little bitty towns and I can tell you from growing up in one of those that there is a completely different mentality and the majority are not even gonna look further into it if they do know about it.

      With that being said I think we have a decent showing from the search corridor, pdenver, Cynthis, JDA, Leza to just name a couple off the top of my head.

      Or they may just be out there lurking, biding their time, just waiting,…… Har, har, har!!…….

  65. I would like to make one more trip this year I do not have a search partner. Any know how I can get in touch with Cynthia? I have a solve that is in New Mexico.
    Thank you for your help

  66. No, apparently vox believes there are requirements for finding the chest. Those that haven’t contributed or had both YET, aren’t deserving of finding the prize. That’s a wee bit selfish is it not???

    • B. Heston, that’s not what I believe. Anyone who can crack this nut is deserving of the prize, and I would like someone to do it – since I will probably never have another opportunity. I just don’t intend to provide lurkers or those who don’t want to do the work with a gift horse. That person could be a person searching from their desk or with BOTG – it makes no difference to me as long as they’re not just watching and waiting for a free ride.

      What I said in the post that Goofy jumped on, is what I believe and what I meant. Focusing on the poem, and looking at it from all angles WILL provide invaluable info.

      Here’s a tiny example. How many words are there in the poem? How can that help you find where warm waters halt?

      • Vox–You are Spot-On you are not selfish,you are not under any obligation or feel you have a duty on your part or any other searcher’s part to share anything you solved! This is just a platform to bounce ideas off one another, if you feel the need.

        • Thank you R–B. I would love to be able to bounce ideas, but since, in my solve, every solution to every clue depends on the preceding ones, it would make no sense to treat one clue in isolation.

          I wish Goofy would understand that expressing frustration is not the same as boasting. I’ve run into this situation before, and it makes more sense for me just to shut up.

          Everything I post is to try to help people realize that the poem is an incredibly deep mine of information, IMO. It is not to say “my solution is better than yours,” but to convey the excitement of the discoveries that await.

          • Vox I do understand, really I do. Lots of frustration, exuberance, arrogance, desperation, despair, and all the other emotions out there. I was surprised how emotional folks get over a treasure hunt. The fall seems to be the peak of emotional come-a-parts around here.

            Some are busting at the seams to share what they have found, some get so paranoid they are sure the NSA is hacking their computer to steal their solution. Some go completely berserk and do some really crazy stuff. You wouldn’t believe some of the emails I get.

            You seem like a nice guy and I’m sure you’ve come up with an interesting solution. I understand not wanting to share what you have found and feel you can’t say anything without giving away all of it. There are many folks here that can’t believe everyone doesn’t see things their way; it’s so obvious to them, why can’t everyone see the light. Which leads to some very interesting and spirited discussions. If we didn’t put our reasoning and research out there for discussion all we would have is a bunch of hard heads calling each other stupid, and a complete waste of time.

          • Thanks, Goofy, I really appreciate your understanding.

            So onto what’s driving part of my frustration:

            Despite FF’s comments about aberrations and my posting a whole article about an anomaly in the poem, it’s like neither of those things ever happened! This is what I’ve been trying to get at – there are some really strange creatures living down that poetic well, and many of them swim in complete darkness. Where’s that flashlight?

          • Vox, I remember his aberrations on the edge and bumping the curbs statements. I think many have used those statements as a justification for their solution. In optics an aberration is the failure of rays to converge at one focus because of limitations or defects in a lens or mirror. In astronomy it’s the apparent displacement of a celestial object from its true position, caused by the relative motion of the observer and the object; so it is an interesting word when applied to the poem.

            But without a specific aberration –or anomaly as you call it– there really isn’t much to discuss.

      • voxpops…. Im not interested in giving a bunch of freebies either. But you all but said newbies/ lurkers dont have a place here…so yes i was offended. Ok, ill admit to not having more than about 3 mos. invested in the chase, but i can assure you 85% of my ideas/ conclusions come from MY own legwork. Here me all….you have not a thing to fear. From the viewpoint of a short-timer there isnt enough ideas shared here to construct much.MHO!(btw, thats not a jab at anyone) If anyone believes they can solve this poem by just watchin the posts… they will forever be lost.So to agree w/ u in part, if others r 2 lazy 2 find a path on their own then perhaps they arent worthy. Im not lookin for handouts. Nor am i a claim-jumper. Rest assured, I AM wise enough to find my own way. Please understand though, botg is easier said than done when you have other obligations. Family and CHILDREN come first!

  67. Seeker,
    I have to ask why you do not settle down on any one or 2 chains of thought even though it makes sense to you at that time?

    Are you like this when you go shopping & your other half has to drag you out of the store?

    When you go get ice cream from the parlor down the street, do you get a little of everything just to drive the server nuts & get nuts on it?

    OK, to each his own. But I think you will have to make a decision on what, where, how & when sooner or later otherwise it seems like your going around the earth without landing to see if it’s quicksand or not. Sooner or later you gotta put your landing gear down & land or crash.

    • So what you’re saying is Jake, I need to simply “settle” on a thought and spend thousands of hours researching, thousand of dollars traveling to one failed attempt after another, come back to the blogs and announce what a great time I had, but on the way home I had an epiphany. I know where I screwed up, and on my next trip I know I’ll have the chest. Of course there will be many more hours of research, more thousands spent for another trip, just to rinse and repeat.

      The funny thing is, I have seen and heard of the brilliant solves, and some have 10, 50, even over 200 searches. Two searcher have mortgaged their homes, borrowed money from grandma, and how many whine their family life is in the crapper. But thanks for the concern. When I’m satisfied with what I have, I’ll do what I feel is right. I’m not in a race with anyone.
      Oh by the way, I don’t talk about my family on the blog for a reason. Next time you want to give an example to get some idiotic point across… do the same.

      • Idiotic point Seeker?
        I spent years on that & finally made a decision to make a decision LOL.
        The only idiotic point I see is the one not being made by you.

        You certainly do spend a lot of time on this & I would say more than most.
        Your studying has gone back a few years.
        How can anyone spend so much time on something & still dance around how the poem needs to be read? Ya, I know, all the simpletons failed at there straightforward solve so the poem must be a deep mine with all this information we cannot see by a simply reading it for what it is.

        I never said anything neg about your honey. I was just implying you have a hard time of making up your mind while others are acting upon their thoughts & ideas while you suggest they should take a step or few back.

        So anyway, your answer only applies to a few & you keep using Goofy’s quotes.
        Be original if you can.

      • Well said Old Yeller!!

        One of these days a stomper, with multiple searches, may find the chest….. at which time I will gladly congratulate them!

        Until the I am in your camp.

        As always, Good Luck to All……loco

      • Here’s what I see from dipping into the past here on this blog & other internet offerings.

        In the beginning, when the book & poem came out, most searchers took the poem at face value & continued that way for the most part until the failures piled up.

        Within the 1st few years after gaining steam, Forrest came out with the 500′ statement & told searchers were close.
        Then the 200′ statement & they were even closer.

        This was early in the chase & would have to think that all those straightforward, face value thinkers got very close but no cigar, 200′ from thousands of square miles.

        How could out of the box thinkers accomplish this with numbers, coordinates, the clues are thoughts or ideas?

        No, they looked at the poem as a map with directions from point A to B & so on, there was no reason for most not to think this way.

        I would be willing to bet that you show the poem to 100 people, the majority would see it for what it is in a straightforward way, maybe 80% & that’s probably why those got so close.

        Another point is that Forrest has been trying to reel people back in to reality & a more straightforward solve with his latest statements but are falling upon def ears as yours & others.

        There’s a good reason for him to do this.
        Take a good look what has happened this past year & a half.

        Get back in the box before the box disappears.

        Now I have to see if Mathew is going to hit us. We are in the cone of uncertainty as we all are in the chase but some stay uncertain while others know where to strike. – out.

        • Jake, I would have to agree that is a map – A to B to C and so on – but it’s not the way most people conceptualize a map. In other words, it’s not the same as getting in your car to drive to the supermarket, IMO. And the fact that people have been in the immediate vicinity of the chest – without knowing it – merely points to the fact that it’s not located at the top of a snow-capped mountain.

          • vox,
            He already told us in an interview it’s not at the top of a mountain.
            I don’t think there are any coordinates to be figured or hidden numbers either.

            Think about the millions of possibilities if you start assigning numbers to letters or words & punctuation’s.

            Most in the beginning did not do this & got to within 200′.

            I would throw the paint by numbers game out the window & paint what you see from the poem.

        • Jake,
          You love the straightforward comment… All well and good. There are two actually, fenn is known to have said. Have a look, post them here and lets have a chat.

          And to your comment; “You certainly do spend a lot of time on this & I would say more than most.
          Your studying has gone back a few years.
          How can anyone spend so much time on something & still dance around how the poem needs to be read?”

          I can dance with anyone on a topic of reading the poem anyway they like to discuss it. Why? because I’ve been there and done it. I don’t waste time looking through the bible, reading decoder books, microscopic analyzes of illustrations, put lemon juice on pages, ponder why some books have glue in the binding and why others have stitching. I and many others have heard them all.
          So I get it… you don’t understand half of what I contribute. Maybe that is because you have only a single mind set, and can’t grasp many things I post.
          I have read this poem many times in many ways… But all I heard for six years [ excluding two posted solves and thoughts ] everyone has the same method of search … and even when some have “deciphered” the first two clues, at the correct location in an active search [ told to fenn by those searcher ]

          “There have been some who have been within 500 feet because they have told me where they have been.  Others have figured the first two clues and went right past the treasure and didn’t know it.” 
          “There are several people that have deciphered the first two clues. I don’t think they knew it, because they walked right on past the treasure chest.”
          The stomping point to point is flawed in my book.
          Not just the excuse that those searchers were to dumb to follow a clue or clues or the other excuse they were only tourist. I guarantee those folks live and breathe the chase like most.

          So find the quotes about straightforward directly from fenn… lets go from there if you want a discussion about that topic.

          • Seeker,
            If it aint broke, don’t fix it.
            It’s not broke. Searchers have been within 200′ out of thousands of miles to choose from & got that close. That’s pretty darn good right underneath excellent.

            (36:13) OK, do we look at the poem more of a physical location or metaphysical location? (Sounds like Dal asking question to me & has never answered to my Q about this)
            “What’s metaphysical mean? When I wrote that poem I wasn’t playing any games, It’s straightforward.”

            It is straightforward!

            I think the average person knows what this means.
            Oh, I said “average person”.

            Straightforward, average.

            OK, let’s deviate from what he said & look for things in the poem that won’t get the same success as the 200 footers. Maybe it’s metaphysical? That’s right, I said success, because that’s the measuring stick right now.

          • C’mon Jake, ” if ain’t broke don’t fix it”?

            That is a poor end run… cuz so far it’s doesn’t work… doesn’t work ~ broken.

            Metaphysics; the branch of philosophy …
            Well, that says it all right there. Huh?
            Another fenn’s comment was in part; …All I know are the facts, if you want the truth go next door to the psychology department.f

            I won’t drag you through the mud, you’re not going to look all that has been stated, you simply pick one comment and run with it, as long as in your mind it works in your favor. You’re not alone.

            Just ask you’re self this… From who’s perspective are you working with?

            uncomplicated and easy to do or understand… Plain, simple, effortless, undemanding.

            (of a person) honest and frank, open, sincere, truthful, in all honesty.

            I can’t agree more, that fenn is saying the poem is straightforwards. We just need to find his perspective.

    • Well said. Whether directed at Seeker, or any searcher, the advice is good. Settle on a strategy, piece it together, and try it out. If Orville and Wilber had never put the pieces of material together and flown that first plane, all they would have had was an unproven idea, and unproven ideas just don’t fly.


      • Speaking of flying ideas that dont fly…
        .a predecessor to Orville and Wilburs machine was the “orinthopter” (hope I spelled it right) Quite oddly similar to Skippy’s machine, it barely got inches off the ground and the only money made off of it was the nickle or whatever admission Ppl paid to see the attempt…..oh and then again when a wise gallery owner purchased the rubble and put it for sale in his gallery catalog as a relic of history. I think it finally found D a home in a museum somewhere. I learned that from reading all the old gallery catalogs and found it and it’s description for sale. Sure, it probably doesn’t locate the chest….but my philosophy is just to learn as much as I can about everything mentioned and hope the pieces just wake up at 5:30am one sunday morning and line up in their places. Like Fs dolls..So far it hasn’t failed me more than doing the same with a map, but the only treasures I’ve found are cool stuff like that so I like to share them when I can draw a tangent like now.

          • Yeah now Google the one in the Arrowsmiths catalog. If you can’t find it and want me to take a pic of that page and email it to you I’m glad to. There was a crazy item in every catalog. One even has a cruise ship…apparently 2different governments bid on it before all was said and done. They’re hysterical. I swear it’s not my fault I get sidetracked with all the detours, they’re as good as gold sometimes I swear!

          • Sounds like one heck of a catalogue. I agree with you. This has been one heck of a mind-blowing experience. I’ve researched things I’ve never known. 🙂

  68. Volcanos are erupting, hurricanes are swirling, the fault in Cali is getting nervous and winter is coming on fast…Indulgence is waiting out there patiently. Oh yeah…almost forgot…the most notorious election ever is right around the corner!
    Good luck everyone…and be careful out there.

    • LoL. I’ll take all the above if we could find two other candidates. The next four years worry me either way. Might be a great time to search.

  69. OK, Jake, JDA, Goofy & Voxpops
    I have agreed with almost all that has been said so far until you Jake hit the #’s game. I wasn’t one to say that there was or was not any lat. or long. hidden in this poem but then I remembered that comment in the TTOTC book on page 133 where Forrest said ” I dreamed the other night that I was Captain Kidd and went to Gardiner’s Island looking for the treasure.” Well I dug into that comment yesterday and low and behold the way that they found the Island by discovering the true coordinates of his Island are cleverly hidden in the two maps. The hidden latitude position of his island is exact and the hidden longitude position of his island is within a few minutes, (about 5 miles) but you would of seen the island from the deck of Captain Kidd’s ship at that point. So, I have been searching some specifics and I truly believe that they are there. I will stop with that…
    Timothy …IMHO
    Best of luck and be safe all of my fellow sailors…oops ( I mean searchers)

    • Tim,
      What would you rather take?
      200 feet.
      5 miles.

      I will stick with the 200 ft remark by Forrest.

      You can play with numbers & coordinates till our sun goes supernova & the treasure will be returned back to where it came from long after we will be there.

      • the 200 ft. ppl could went right past all the rest and didn’t know the significance of where they were. any person that rode a train that stopped there, and failed to get off, because it wasn’t where their solve went. and any person that told F they took a ride on that train he would have known was close as trains pass the same stops. he also might know that the chest hasn’t been found as trains show passenger lists….maybe nobody ever got off there? not claiming its a train though

        • Hmmm, like back in time, rode the trains then walked them. I do remember a place where someone buried something near a RR track in the middle of an old stage road.

  70. Before Arrowsmiths (that F eventually bought out) was a gallery it was actually a trading post. “Relics of the Old West”. You can Google the old address to find it, but it might get confusing because that same street address exists in another town as well but Toledo is way to far east of the search area so don’t click the Ohio one.
    P.S. Thanks Eric 🙂

  71. I’m just curious. I found out about the poem just a couple of months back. Is there anyone on the blog that began here when it was first made known? ( 2010 or so?) It seems there are quite a few who have made an attempt then kind of given up. I’m just curious how many have remained in the hunt?

  72. In the Searchers, New Mexico tourism video that was put out last year, F talks about clearing trails for the forest service when he was younger. Has anyone ever considered that his special spot is near where he cleared some trails?

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