The Poem…Part Six

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Here is Forrest reading his poem, The Thrill of the Chase. If you have not memorized the poem…don’t be concerned…neither has Forrest apparently…
https://dalneitzel.com/video/audio/poem.mp3

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609 thoughts on “The Poem…Part Six

  1. Perhaps Mr. Fenn didn’t write the poem. He just wrote it down….therefore, he wrote the poem. Could I be as bold to suggest it’s anothers words put to pen by Mr.Fenn? ( The Moving Finger writes; and, having writ, etc. )

      • I do not feel this is the case. I know any one of us can have quite similar thoughts or words, but doesn’t mean they came from someone else. Hope I was able to explain my thoughts correctly.

        • Plagiarism covers things that have been previously printed, not the spoken word. There is no attorney or cleric privilege in this case so it is theoretically possible that someone besides Mr. Fenn dictated the words. No different than a reporter or court clerk typing out a speech verbatim.

          • I’ll elaborate. It has always been my contention that Mr. Fenn didn’t do this alone. Two can keep a secret if one of them is dead. Two CAN keep a secret….they’ve been keeping it for many years. Pious indulgence.

          • Your thoughts are his poem are someone else’s words, but he wrote them down as his own? How does this explain how he said he chose his words wisely (paraphrasing)? Perhaps I’m misunderstanding what you are saying.

        • I’m pretty sure he wrote the poem himself. Remember: he hid the treasure, Then wrote the
          poem. Not the other way around.
          I don’t think he robbed someone elses words or had any help.
          I wrote a poem in the 4th grade. It’s not that complicated 🙂

          • Or it could be a place he had never been to until he actually hid the treasure.
            From “Forrest Gets Mail From a Middle School Class”:
            Q: When was the first time you went to the place where you hid the treasure?
            A: I don’t want to answer that question. It is more of a clue than I want to give.
            If the actual EXACT spot was never visited until he actually hid the TC and the area (wilderness, state, etc) is his favorite place in the world, then that would explain him never being there until actually hiding it. If he had actually visited that EXACT spot when he was young, what would have been the harm with him saying that he went there or found the spot many, many years ago?

        • ok pdenver, then please explain to me at least what f meant by “I could have wrote the poem before I hid the treasure chest, but I didn’t.”
          Forrest has claimed numerous time and again that he put 15 years into this poem. That’s not what that statement is saying.
          Timothy…IMHO

          • To defend pdenver somewhat, I do believe they are possibly on to something. Fenn has stated that two can keep a secret is one of them is dead. And if we are to believe Tom Terrific (which I personally have no reason to doubt) when he stated, “…..Forrest told them “His father would know where he hid the treasure.”,” then I believe it may be his own father that Forrest is referring to. Perhaps it was his own father who had the idea of where and how to hide the TC. I do believe that Forrest did write the poem in his own words that took him 15 years to twist and turn. But wasn’t Forrest also disappointed at how little is remembered of his father? Maybe this is Forrest’s way of drawing attention to Marvin. And maybe most of us have been looking and trying to find out as much as we can about the wrong person. Who exactly was Marvin Fenn and what did he do and what did he possibly write?
            “As I have gone alone in there….”
            Is the “I” Marvin who went alone into his grave?
            Just a little different line of thought…..

          • Thank you, KP. I didn’t realize other comments had been made until your post.

            Hello Timothy. The quote, ‘I could have wrote the poem before I hid the treasure chest, but I didn’t.,’ has been a little bit of a mystery to me. As I sit here and think about it, I tend to believe what he has always said in the past; that he knew where he wanted to place the treasure chest (paraphrasing). He’s been there before.

          • (Second try.) ‘ “I could have wrote the poem before I hid the treasure chest, but I didn’t.” ‘ We’ve heard him state that he’s always known where to hide the treasure chest. This quote may be to say just that. He could have written the poem first, because he knew of the place, because he’s already been there. Hope this makes sense.

          • In my original post that didn’t go through, I tried commenting how that particular quote was a bit confusing to me. Did he hide the treasure chest, and then write the poem? Not sure. I thought I’ve read that his friends had seen it a month(s) before the book was published. Perhaps someone will correct me if I’m wrong.

          • Or it could be a place he had never been to until he actually hid the treasure.
            From “Forrest Gets Mail From a Middle School Class”:
            Q: When was the first time you went to the place where you hid the treasure?
            A: I don’t want to answer that question. It is more of a clue than I want to give.
            If the actual EXACT spot was never visited until he actually hid the TC and the area (wilderness, state, etc) is his favorite place in the world, then that would explain him never being there until actually hiding it. If he had actually visited that EXACT spot when he was young, what would have been the harm with him saying that he went there or found the spot many, many years ago?

          • Hi KP/Kevin!

            I agree with your line of thinking about not needing to doubt what Tom Terrific said, and that Forrest was referring to his own father as someone who would know the treasure location. However, I don’t think you need to do any further research into information about Marvin Fenn other than what Forrest writes about him already in “Thrill of the Chase” (Forrest also gave us a heads up at the end of TOTC that trying to find information about his father on the internet is a somewhat fruitless effort).

            I also don’t believe that going down this rabbit hole is a good direction to start off with if you haven’t already gotten a good solve based on the poem, IMO.

          • Kevin: ‘Or it could be a place he had never been to until he actually hid the treasure.’

            Mr. Fenn during Moby Dickens book signing: ‘I decided I knew where I was going to hide the chest.’

          • Kevin, in regards to the example you gave between the children in school and Mr. Fenn’s response, I’d like to offer a thought to you. If he had responded that the first time he had gone to this place, he was a young child, or a teenager, where would you start looking? Wouldn’t that be too much of a clue?

          • FYI KevinP:
            “The spot where I hid the treasure was in my mind from the time I first started thinking about the chase. It is special to me and there was never another consideration. I was going to make it work no matter what. In my reverie I often find myself stealing away to that place and I will always consider it to be mine alone.f”

  2. I like the part about two can keep a secret if one is dead… I’ve often thought, someone else knows his spot…. but they are all dead.

    So its his secret.

    Its his poem. he wouldn’t be so possessive if he didn’t write it. ‘Don’t mess with my poem.’

    He likely reads it on video, so as not to add any unwanted inflection, or make an embarrassing mistake. And… if you watch him read it, it looks to me like he is hardly looking at the words, its just something to focus on. IMO

    • I’m pretty sure his dad and probably the rest of the family knew about the secret spot. I believe it was one of the places they used to hide their fishing gear.

  3. Kedar’s mom–

    Actually, it’s “if you’ve been wise and found the blaze”. When referring to being brave it is present tense: “If you ARE brave and in the wood”.

      • Oh, I see what you’re saying. He does say “if you’ve been brave”—but the printed poem (in many different locations) has it in present tense. So it’s clear that we know the answer—I mean, answers. 🙂

    • Hey kadar’s mom
      That’s because in that statement the person who found the TC has not left the location yet. As a builder the word “wood” changes it’s meaning from the word “woods” meaning the original wood ia a finished piece of wood not a tree.
      Just something to think about
      Timothy…IMHO

    • Hey kadar’s mom
      That’s because in that statement the person who found the TC has not left the location yet. As a builder the word “wood” changes it’s meaning from the word “woods” meaning the original wood is a finished piece of wood not a tree.
      Just something to think about
      Timothy…IMHO

    • This is part of my premise that the poem should not be “messed” with. “Straight forward”… “….I wasn’t playing any games…” is less ambiguous than “Don’t mess with my poem” if taken in context with how these statements were offered. To me…they are both synonymous. It is understood that many writers and poets often hid messages in their works for various reasons. I cannot recall ever being instructed to read them other than presented. In Fenn’s case his poem is a map with nine clues that leads to a treasure…and the reader is challenged to decipher his meaning from beginning to end.
      I have never started reading a book in another place other than the beginning…nor has it occurred to me to do that with a poem. When reading either…poem or book…I want to get the full story or meaning without corrupting it before I even start. Perhaps Fenn has introduced the Chase to promote an alternative procedure to reading and understanding the mysteries of script and prose ? The ills that plague society are already out of skew…I don’t think Fenn wants to add to that. Just another searcher that wants to figure this out…without making it my story.

      • Ken,
        You never read a story that started at the end [of the story], and worked it’s way back though the plot and finished where the story started, at the end?

        It’s not about “starting to read” the poem from stanza 5 or 6 or 2…
        You’re only looking at the technical aspect of reading English. But ya might be missing the imagination aspect. Which is one aspect of poems, the need to be interpreted.

        It’s about, after reading the poem from top to bottom and left to right… one might see that the beginning of the first word, in the first line, of the first stanza, might not be where it all begins. Nor does “Begin it where” must be in present tense. It could be just another way of saying ‘once upon a time’

        It changes nothing within the poem, no words, phrases, lines, and yes, no stanzas or format changes. It only changes the understand of how the story, or in this case the poem, is understood.

        In this case…
        Knowledge; knowing how to read.
        Poem; imagination, interpretation.

        • Seeker…you and I could go on and on until the cows fell over. My above comment was not about the stories/poems I have read…nor the reasons why/or how I dissected them to learn the meaning. It was about the basic fundamentals of first reading something correctly in order. Your attempts to blow holes in my theory sheds light on the problem at hand. Everyone interprets things differently…and that is just how life is. My opinion is that you have skipped over some basic steps and headed right to the operating room…just don’t take the leg off because you have a headache.
          I say…my opinion…read the poem in order and understand that first…
          You can say whatever you want …but don’t imply that I do not know how to read just because my method doesn’t jive with your…”Its about…” or Knowledge; knowing how to read etc.
          Carry on…and have a wonderful day Seeker…maybe Loco is right…too much line out .

          • Ok, maybe this will help… because, all this is, is a discussion of different opinions, and I’m not sure if I’m getting my point out as clear as I like it to be…

            Look at it this way;
            We are given a list of materials. {stanza 1 2 3 4} But we don’t know where to ‘start’ to place the first piece {clue} or even why it needs to be where it supposed to go.

            Stanza 5, gives a question that has been ‘answered’.. the summation of where to start with the pieces, and why.

            Now we have a ‘starting point’ to Begin with the correct first piece…

            I think the main problem has been, imo, we are thinking the first “clue” is the starting point. But it might be only the first piece of all the piece. The starting point tells us where to put the pieces together.

            No guessing, no dart tossing… no messing with the poem. Simply a possibility of analyzing what we have.

          • Seeker…I understand perfectly what you are trying to say. I just do not see it that way. That methodology implies that stanza five has been deciphered (gives a question that has been answered…the summation of where to start with the pieces, and why.). Really? Are you certain of that? Last I knew… no searchers have made it that far.
            I will say again…I believe that the first clue is in the first stanza and that without that…there is very little chance that anyone will knowingly make it past the first two or three clues.
            If you don’t have the first clue nailed down…
            My “Army men” just complained about not being fed and they have sand in their eyes…gotta go!

  4. If “You’ve been” brave and in the wood I give u title to the gold. Well Forrest I have been Brave.
    Now I need that gold. 😉 $$$$$$$ lol ha ha.
    I will read it next time. Ha ha ha love it.

  5. I don’t think past or present tense on ‘brave’ has any bearing on the solve.
    Whenever Forrest reads the poem he pronounces ‘tarry’ as ‘ta-rē’ as in ‘to stay somewhere’ rather than ‘tärē’ which is ‘of, like, or covered with tar.’

  6. A question about the two mistakes in the old poem that was on Forrest’s website (link below).

    The two mistakes are:
    1. In line 2 (Stanza 1) it was “tresures” instead of “treasures”
    2. In line 19 (Stanza 5) it was “answer” instead of “answers”

    Forrest has said (not in these exact words) that answer(s) was a spelling mistake, pick whatever you want, the poem can be solved with either.

    My question is, did he ever explain the “tresures” difference? I cannot seem to find it anywhere. Could this “mistake” reveal that by “treasures bold” the meaning is “tressures bold”?

    tressure =
    * an ornamental enclosure containing a figure or distinctive device, formerly found on various gold and silver coins.
    * a narrow inner border on a shield, usually decorated with fleurs-de-lys. * Middle English tressour, from tressour, tressure band for the hair, headdress, from Middle French tresseor, tressure, from tresser to tress + -or, -ure

    It might also be a coincidence that the missing S if it is “tressures” was was added to “answer” by mistake. Either way, my question is did Forrest ever explain why his website used the word “tresures” in the poem?

    Note: Please do not think that in any way I am saying Forrest was misleading. I do not think he would do that, however “tressure” sounds a lot like “treasure” and “tresure”, maybe he fixed it so it is clear what he meant, or maybe because it can too easily be associated with “tressure”?

  7. @curioushobbit….no need to worry about copying…not with this sort of Spud at least…;)

    Rites

    A church and a wedding
    May be good,
    But first there was incense
    Of cedar wood.

    Instead of candles,
    Remember the fire
    In the hills, with the wind
    As your choir.

    You may answer the question
    “Do you take…?”
    But the holiest font
    Is a mountain lake.

    The sacred hills
    Are higher than churches,
    And they have steeples
    Of silver birches.

  8. This page is a ghost town. Lots of those in Wyoming. Anyways, here’s the poem without the lines containing ‘I’ ‘You’ ‘Your’ ‘Me’ and other similar words including ‘Brown’ because its capitalized and at the end of a phrase:
    And hint of riches new and old.
    Begin it where warm waters halt
    And take it in the canyon down,
    Not far, but too far to walk.
    From there it’s no place for the meek,
    The end is ever drawing nigh;
    Just heavy loads and water high.
    But tarry scant with marvel gaze,
    Just take the chest and go in peace.

    Notice how there are only nine lines left.

    • Jack,
      I have thought about this in a similar way & may have something there but I wouldn’t exclude PIBTHOB. I’m not sure why you grouped this with ‘I’ ‘You’ ‘Your’ ‘Me’.

      I have noticed that the only stanzas he mentions I – I’ve – I’m – Me or My are the 1st – 5th & 6th stanzas.

      So maybe stanzas 2 – 3 & 4 are about you.

  9. This page is a ghost town. Lots of those in Wyoming. Anyways, here’s the poem without the lines containing ‘I’ ‘You’ ‘Your’ ‘Me’ and other similar words including ‘Brown’ because its capitalized and at the end of a phrase:
    And hint of riches new and old.
    Begin it where warm waters halt
    And take it in the canyon down,
    Not far, but too far to walk.
    From there it’s no place for the meek,
    The end is ever drawing nigh;
    Just heavy loads and water high.
    But tarry scant with marvel gaze,
    Just take the chest and go in peace.

    Notice how there are only nine lines left.

      • I am usually 2 steps ahead of people. I just dont know how Forrest does it. He is always 3 steps ahead. As they say, it takes one to know one.

      • Jonsey1, have you seen the movie Wild Bill 1995 Jeff Bridges. The very last part of the movie made me laugh. Just as Wild Bill gets shot with Aces and Eights. The camera pans to a deck of cards. The cards label is Brown Fox Playing Cards….. It was a good movie.

  10. As I have gone alone in there…
    So why is it that I must go…

    I find it slightly odd the way stanza 1 & 5 start. In stanza 1, you would think the wording would flow better with… As I’ve gone alone in there, not unlike in stanza 5 ‘I’ve done it tired…’
    Also, wouldn’t stanza’s 5 first line read as ‘So why is it I must go…'[ dropping the “that” ]. If both stanzas relate fully to the same person? [ I’m not looking/considering proper grammar, just curious to the reasoning of presentation ].

    Are these slightly different worded lines meant have a reason or subtle way of saying, they are not one in the same person?

    Other quirts are; treasure to trove, as well as, stanza 5 is a form of a question with an answer[s] and stanza 1 talks of hints. Yet, another thought is; why not place stanza 5 at the end of the poem? Imo, stanza 6 would more likely read better/efficient after stanza 4, as it seems to be instructing us about the poem, and not so much an ending… with the question [ stanza 5 ] following it all up or finalizing the poem. I mean by now [ this far in the poem ], the reader is supposed to understand fenn has already gone, right?

    So, If fenn has gone alone in there and with the “treasure”… why tell us he’s leaving again, and with his “trove”? Seems a bit redundant, right? Why the subtle differences in the words chosen?
    Of course we do have hints of riches vs. answers [ “I’ve” done it tired, and now “I’m” weak ] to consider when reading these stanzas as well.

    The point to this; Do we understand these three stanzas as well as we should, or are they just [ like some proclaim ] simply meant as an intro to the poem and the poem’s ending?

    • Treasure vs. trove may be an artistic expression. Not having to use the same word repeatedly, but having the same meaning. This is an opinion, offered as a thought.

      • Artistic expression is always great in a poem… but there are two different meanings of treasure and trove, as well as their placement within the poem. This particular poem contains information to a million plus in gold and stones. Are these words simply written off as artistic expression? Many seem to be writing off a lot of words in this poem…
        “The poem in my book is something that I changed over and over again. When you read the poem it looks like just simple words there. But I guarantee you that I worked on that. I felt like an architect drawing that poem.”

        • Each have their importance, along with artistic expression. It will be difficult, but not impossible (paraphrasing).

    • I think f masked the ultra important beginning point in a seemingly vague first stanza. Then, he additionally masked that by having two stanzas at the end that don’t contain clues. He could have been counting on many to be focusing on the end stuff and skip over the beginning…which is how things have played out and f has commented about after the fact.

      • Fundamental ~ ” Then, he additionally masked that by having two stanzas at the end that don’t contain clues.”

        I guess that is one way of looking at it. Three stanzas just to screw with our heads… kinda a waste of 1/2 a poem.
        The again, if deliberate, it would make the poem even more difficult. But, that sounds like red herrings to me… 1/2 the poem not containing any clues, simply there to mask the real clues… If I’m reading your comment correctly.

        • Seeker, the last two stanzas may be to confirm what has already been done in the previous stanzas.
          ‘So why is it that I must go
          And leave my trove for all to seek?
          The answers I already know,
          I’ve done it tired, and now I’m weak.’

          This is an opinion, offered as a thought.

          • I get PD, and a lot of searchers seem to think the same. I just wondering if there are others that see it different…
            I’m also looking for that “…one important possibility related to the winning solve.”

  11. Starting with the poem, it references by title his two books, TTOTC and TFTW. Each of those books in turn references by title other books. I conjectured that if f “liked” the book I should read it. But if f didn’t like the book I could ignore it. Two of the books he liked and I subsequently found useful were Flywater and Journal of a Trapper. I’m not selling books just sayin they contain information helpful to the searcher. Again it’s all my opinion.

  12. As odd as it might sound, the word “the” from the poem is one of the most important hints in the Chase. It’s definitely in the top three! If you don’t believe me, don’t forget who won the Top Gun trophy. As always it’s my opinion. Best of luck figuring out why. 🙂

  13. “there are a few words in my poem that are not useful”
    Why do you people keep trying to make literal sense out of the poem and the grammar and the tense, and the order of presentation, when he seems to be stating that most of the words were selected for different reasons than the obvious ones.
    Study the word selection and try to figure out why he used treasures, trove, riches, chest, when they all basically seem to mean the same thing. Why are there so many y’s, I’s, ands, an it’s.

  14. Peace => Piece => Scrap
    Title => Book
    Peace + Title => Scrapbook

    So do you still think there are no hints in the scrapbooks?

    Treasure => Thesaurus

    • Dal’s site, is the only personal blog that has SB’s { started after the release of the book}. The first SB was dated Feb 2013, 3 years after the release of the book/poem/challenge. The words you equate from the poem to SB’s could have been written into the poem as much as 20 years prior to the thought of a SB… on a personal web page, by a searcher.
      How in the world can you logically believe that those “words from the poem” have any kind of connection / information related to Scrapbooks, and the reasoning you think SB’s hold hint?
      That’s one heck of a fortune cook ya got there.

      Just blurting out my thought as well…

  15. Here is how f tells you the significance of his Q&A. It is built solely from things found in the poem.

    quest + yon + and + answers + with + Forrest Fenn

    Just FYI.

  16. You will need your thesaurus to see this one, but f just might have thought of everything …. even planned Weekly Words to be part of the Chase. I’m not certain but it’s starting to look that way. Or it could just be a coincidence? You decide.

    weak => Week
    quickly => ly
    put => Words

    • Weekly Word is the creation of the Blogs Owner…{fanatic web site I might add} fenn only agreed to participate. Not unlike;
      Six questions with…
      Random words
      Feature questions

      No deciding needed… that was done for us.
      Mr. Thesaurus, what color is the sky in your world?

  17. Hi all. I am not an active searcher or anything, but have been lurking on here for a while and enjoy seeing everyone’s thoughts on the treasure. One thing I keep coming back to in my own thoughts, is that the poem seems very similar to the story River Bathing is Best on oldsantafetradingco.com. Forrest said that he used to ride his bike to Ojo Caliente as a kid, and it seems like the poem could follow his ride there on a map. They also use some of the same words. Below is the poem with some of my thoughts in parentheses to show the similarities that stick out to me. Anyway, these are just my thoughts and good luck to all of you searchers:
    ————————————————————————————————–
    As I have gone alone in there
    And with my treasures bold,

    (In the past, to his secret bathing spot
    In the present to hide the treasure
    ff – I’d ride my bike into Yellowstone Park)

    I can keep my secret where,
    And hint of riches new and old.

    (Both the poem and the story use the word secret:
    ff – My secret bathing spot – where the hot water tumbled into the stream)

    Begin it where warm waters halt

    (Hot water from geothermal features first enters the river in the Upper Geyser Basin.  In 30 miles, the Firehole River warms almost 30 degrees.  This warm water temperature facilitates year-round insect activity and trout growth. 
    Also Dal’s WWWH being at Madison Junction:
    There are two rivers in Yellowstone that are known to be very warm. They are warm and yet they are great trout fishing streams. Rivers that Forrest and his dad both fished extensively..and often took clients too, the Gibbon and the Firehole.
    So perhaps you see my interest in this place where the Firehole and the Gibbon end as not only a unique place..but also likely to be the place Forrest intends us to “Begin it..” in his poem.)

    And take it in the canyon down,

    (Down on a map through Firehole Canyon)

    Not far, but too far to walk.

    (According to Google earth, it is about 5 miles from Madison Junction to Fountain Flats Drive. Also, ff rode his bike there and has made other comments about bikes:
    ff – I’d ride my bike into Yellowstone Park to a spot about twenty miles from town where a seldom-used dirt road turned right off the main drag.)

    Put in below the home of Brown.

    (Turn right on Fountain Flats Drive,below the Nez Perce creek:
    ff – where a seldom-used dirt road turned right off the main drag.

    Put in can also mean stop ex – if a ship puts in, it stops at a port

    In 1890 brown trout were introduced into Nez Perce creek a Firehole tributary and in the 1920s, rainbow trout were introduced into the river. Today, the falls still block upstream migrations of spawning trout from the Madison River, but the upper Firehole has become a world class trout fishery because of these introductions )

    From there it’s no place for the meek,

    (Getting out of your car and walking maybe, or because it is bear country. Or from the story:
    ff – It was a wonderfully uncivilized pleasure in a remote area where nothing could interrupt the purity of my naked solitude.)

    The end is ever drawing nigh;

    (The end of Fountain Flats Drive:
    ff – They also closed that little road to all vehicles
    ff – Several years ago, with my daughter Kelly’s family, my wife and I drove to the little road (It’s paved now) and walked to the river)

    There’ll be no paddle up your creek,

    (Don’t go in the water)

    Just heavy loads

    (Fountain Freight Road trail at the end of Fountain Flats Dr)

    and water high.

    (Water high = the river:
    Forrest Gets Mail…
    Forrest responds- What is wrong with me just riding my bike out there and throwing it in the “water high” when I am through with it?
    Implies it is something big enough to throw a bike into, like a pond, lake, or river)

    If you’ve been wise and found the blaze,

    (At this point, you are at the river, which could be the blaze:
    The firehole river, named b/c ppl thought the steam was a fire:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Firehole_River
    The river was named by early trappers for the steam that makes it appear to be smoking as if on fire.[2]

    Or it could be something else in the area)

    Look quickly down, your quest to cease,

    (Somewhere around where the trail meets the river. )

    But tarry scant with marvel gaze,
    Just take the chest and go in peace.

    So why is it that I must go
    And leave my trove for all to seek?
    The answers I already know,

    (ff – That spot, which was so important to me sixty-six years ago, is mostly overlooked now by the occasional passerby. My memories of those experiences are so dear to me that I hope in time all of my grandchildren will follow my footprints to that special place.)

    I’ve done it tired, and now I’m weak.

    So hear me all and listen good,
    Your effort will be worth the cold.

    (On effort –
    ff – I made that bike ride more than a few times, even though it was somewhat arduous to pedal that far at only one manpower. But it was always worth the effort.

    ff -*Victory will always justify the effort. (Posted October 21st, 2016)

    On cold –
    ff – Sometimes, when Kelly curls her long blond hair through her fingers in the sunlight, I am reminded of those long water grasses gently weaving and twisting in the river. Winters are cold for those without such memories.

    ff – *Plan a warm place into which you can retreat. Merry Christmas (Posted Dec. 25th, 2015) )

    If you are brave and in the wood
    I give you title to the gold.

    • If the TC was there it should be found by now. The bathing spot was the very first location that came to my mind for him and I just learned of this treasure a week ago.

  18. You know, stanza five is kind of interesting:

    “So why is it that I must go
    And leave my trove for all to seek.
    The answer(s) I already know
    I’ve done it tired and now I’m weak”

    Go and know, seek and weak, rhyme, but are spelled differently. When meek is used it is rhymed with creek— but here it’s seek and weak. And go and know– and actually so, go, and know all rhyme.

    I find it to be a bit intriguing.

  19. Seeker. Let’s play!!!! 🙂

    Fenn has said, “There are a few words in the poem that are not useful in finding the treasure Phil, but it is risky to discount any of them.”

    Also, very recently, he said “”Every word is placed in there strategically, and you can’t ignore any of the nouns in that poem. f”

    Based upon the latest statement, it would appear that the “nouns” form the nucleus of the Poem.(nucleus: the central and most important part of an object, movement, or group, forming the basis for its activity and growth.)

    Have not the meanings of the nouns constituted the larger measure of discussions involving understanding/solving the clues? The nouns are strategically placed and form the basis for the Poem.

    The Huntsetter has unequivocally stated that we cannot ignore any of the nouns in the Poem!!

    My question to you would be, how can anyone now ignore any of the nouns and have any hope of solving the clues? It now appears that all six stanzas ‘must’ be incorporated into the solution? (it can’t be based solely on stanzas 2,3, & 4)

    So, where to begin?? :)

    • I agree, Loco.
      Another comment { paraphrasing } seems to work with the above comments as well… All the word were deliberately placed {close enough for this conversation}. And, He looked up words and definitions of words… and rebooted.

      So, lol, you ask where to begin?!
      Here’s a though I have been brewing over for some time now… The question in the poem was completely deliberate, no filler, no add on, no structure of the poem, and recently fenn stated about a riddle with-in the poem.
      I’ll add, ‘know where to start,’ and ‘need to start at the beginning’

      So imo, to be honest… we need to { for lack of a better term } solve the Q&A in the poem to know where we need to go.
      This might mean stanza 6 as instructions and now stanza 1 to hint at something important = [ possibility ] and still leaves stanza 2 3 4 as directions needed to be followed by the instruction given in the other stanzas that lead to the chest.
      The idea here is a clue gets you closer. But, a clue might be only pieces of the direction, and the poem ~ overall, as a blueprint or instruction.

      This leaves the clues in consecutive order, contiguous and the poem having All the information to “find” the treasure. IF we read the poem as intended.

      That’s my take ~ overall, anyways.
      So I kinda agree with that attitude of 561234, for the reasons above.

      With that said, the “nouns” should be important throughout the poem. However, I’m open for debate on another theory if you want to. Because it seems to be down ~ to the right “strategy” { opposite of Tomfoolery. which I think you’ll agree with } in understanding the poem, and forget about the dart set.

      • Thanks seeker,

        At present, based on known statements, the only other method, utilizing the entire Poem, would be the one I mentioned to you several years ago.

        But yeah, I was definitely leaning towards 561234, even before the ‘nouns’. I am working with that alone…..but, if I can find another possibility, I’ll throw it at ya!! 🙂

      • Seeker;

        I have long thought that the basic architecture of the poem was a circle. That being the case, starting anywhere – stanza 5 or six or where ever is possible. To start at the question – “So why is it that I must go…” could make a lot of sense.

        My problem comes in connecting
        “If you are brave and in the wood
        I give you title to the gold.”

        and

        ” As I have gone alone in there
        And with my treasures bold,
        I can keep my secret where,
        And hint of riches new and old.”

        “I give you title to the gold” seems to imply the “END” of the search, only to then start it over???

        YES, it IS a circle, but how to make the connection?

        I can connect “In the wood” and “In there” fairly easily, but “Give you title” to “” As I have gone alone in there” is a bit rough for me. Care to help me out a bit as to how you make the connection Seeker? Just Askin’ JDA

        • My only answer… opinion in this line of thinking is… what you listed might not be “clues” as much as “instruction” to understand the clues references.

          I’m as lost as everyone else { whether they want to admit it or not }… I’m just not stuck spinning my wheels in the mud like most.

          • Ah Seeker…I too am lost…but have much enthusiasm for the Quest for answers. The heck with the dang shiny stuff…I want freakin’ answers man.
            There….that’s better. You know my posit on reading the poem out of order…but I do agree that 561234 has a twang to it. I have been able to see some continuity there. I still prefer keeping it simple and reading the poem 1-6 as I have found a good lead in from stanza 1. I think it may be that important thingy.
            The Tomfoolery method is for those who are impatient and need instant failure.

          • Seeker, it’s good to know that you are
            (merely) lost, and not stuck spinning
            your wheels. Carry on.

        • JDA,

          The continuous searching seems to apply here. Finding the chest is the start of a new adventure which will lead to endless adventures down the road.

  20. And yep, if one is just entertaining one’s self, it ain’t tomfoolery. But, it’s not something a ‘serious’ searcher would employ! 🙂

    • Lets take it a step further…
      If we imply direction as the ingredients needed, we still might need instructions to put it all together. Even if the ingredients are listed, such as for a cake; Eggs-flour-sugar etc.
      The instruction; tell us how to do it all… mix-bake-temp. etc.

      Is the poem doing this? Can the poem contain All the information needed, including how it should be executed / understood. The only thing we have, in the most simplest of thoughts is, “begin it where warm waters halt and…” But as fenn stated there are many wwh in the RM’s, and recently said there are billions of blazes… are there not just as many canyons or creeks or heavy loads and water high?

      If so, and it seems to be, imo… then the poem itself must tell us where, the correct ingredients are to be located, and also tell us how to use them. {whether that be stomping out or viewing all or aliening them or waiting for an natural event, or bugs bunny to hop out of his hole and yell, ya found me, etc. etc.
      That is what a blueprint does, right? It show how to put it all together. Otherwise, all we really have is a list of ingredients / materials… Is this the wise part fenn relates to the poem, and “found” the blaze… Knowing where to start and how it all works as one…

      There is another thought, but many don’t like to think about, and it falls into the instruction part of the theory… out of all the many wwh, canyon… the correct ones are below hoB, and that is how we are certain beforehand { out of all the possible choices } and if we knew what hoB is we go right to the chest… or that… knowing where to begin / start line of thinking. And maybe why searcher indicated the first “two” clues but didn’t know it or understand where they were.

      So why is it…? the place of hoB… tired and weak?

      Like I said before… I’m looking for that “important possibility” for winning the prize. That too must be ‘in’ the poem…in my mind.

    • Oz,

      Maybe, but — I’ve done it tired, and now I’m weak…So hear me all and listen good… Your effort will be worth the cold — could also possibly answer it.

      It’s been stated that all the information is in the poem.

      I’ve never understood how anyone becomes fixated on: the clues are bound by each sentence or that they must be bound somehow by stanza ( example: one or two clues per stanza)

      Who says the information cannot cross the ‘border’, between stanzas as long as the clues stay consecutive???
      Or, that the ‘information’ is even bound by punctuation, maybe it is line-by-line??

      • Loco/Seeker,
        I was thinking about this from what you were posting here on this thread. The same way it is easy to ignore the first stanza as ‘filler’ or ff journey into the hidey spot, just the same we do with stanzas 5 and 6. And like you said if the information is in the poem then the answer to that question should be there too. Answering that question should be essential.

        Why did he leave the treasure for all to seek? Is it because he is tired and weak of finding treasures himself and now he wants -others- to find his? Yes, that is the understanding at face value.

        The second layer, imo, is that there is some instruction here to find the clues. The trove is the 9 clues within the poem and he asks: why did I leave these clues here for all to find? He knows the answers (or how the clues are hidden) He has done it -tired- (not physically exhausted) but repeatedly (over and over), meaning the masking of the clues. The next phrase should be something important -and now I’m weak- like he wants to reveal the method next but that is as far as I went. Does it make sense?

        • Oz10, I followed you right up to the weak part, then ya lost me… are you using weak as in information given, but not enough information?

          I think there’s much more to it, and as Loco stated, it might come from the next pieces of information in the poem… But…lol.. I fell off your train of thought on weak… help me out, cuz i’m always will to look at it from all views. { well, most views.}

          • Seeker, ‘as far as I went’, I was referring to myself. In other words, I can’t make the connection with that last phrase (and now I’m weak.)

            I do have something with the first 2 lines of stanza 6 that will carry forward in the same line of thinking.

            So hear me all and listen good- in here I think he is saying ‘hear this but understand that’ or ‘ when you hear this, replace it with that’.

            Your effort will be worth the cold- Why is effort needed? because you need to do what the previous line says (hear this and change it for that) maybe start over or loop around with the new understanding. Makes sense?

      • Loco~ “Who says the information cannot cross the ‘border’, between stanzas as long as the clues stay consecutive?”

        With that thought in mind… who says the clues are needed to be seen { Physical Viewing } in that order?
        IF we seem to end up at HLAWH, are we to look back at this point?
        I have to agree with Goofy on one aspect of being on site, might be, having to view the clues… think about them… analyze them on site.

        The question I ask myself is, where does this stake place? wwwh? hoB? Water high? etc. Could “no place for the meek” refer to, the end we need to view, to see where we need to go?

        There are a lot of WhatIF’s that might need to be considered. While some of my thoughts relate to the beginning, and / or, the first two clues… is it possible that somewhere along the line there must be something that needs less stomping and more viewing?

        Maybe the mirror we might be trying to understand is; that thought of climbing a mountain just to see where I was.
        It’s an older comment, but one many leave to collect dust.

        • LOL!! I like pulling Goofy’s tail!! But yes Seeker, I have long thought that at least the ninth would have to be identified on site.

          And, I agree that, after the fist two, BOTG may be required at any point, I keep that in the forefront of my thinker!!

          It might be conditional-bias on my part, but Fenn made a comment about eighteen months ago that I utilize to validate a potential solve. I start applying it immediately upon identifying an area with the first two clues. If the area doesn’t meet the criteria, I’m outta there! But, in conjuction with that, I am also of the opinion that distance between the third and ninth clues is not that great.(based on his comments)

          I doubt that I am the only who utilizes this next research tool, but it has worked great for me. Everybody has cameras these days,….. Do you know how many public websites there are that people post pictures, and videos, to?? There are millions of pics/videos of the Rocky Mountains alone. It’s amazing what people take pictures of, and comment on. If many people(searchers or not) have been as close as 500 feet, you can bet that most have taken pictures of the area and they can be found online. I have been able to find a number taken in any area I was interested in. No need to go there to get the lay of the land, at least initially! 🙂 
          And yep, I have considered that ‘no place for the meek’ may be the end we are going to. It may not be what is geographically next. He may just be saying that is where we ‘end’. We may need to work past ‘end is nigh’, ‘no paddle’, ‘heavy loads/water high’ immediately after HOB. And ‘no place for the meek’ may actually be the blaze or, perhaps it something we gaze upon when looking down?

          Thanks for playing, Seeker!!! 🙂

        • “Maybe the mirror we might be trying to understand is; that thought of climbing a mountain just to see where I was.
          It’s an older comment, but one many leave to collect dust.”

          Seeker, what is this referencing?

      • Loco, if you were to ask the same question to ff about tomfoolery and homophones, do you think the answer will be the same?

        • Oz, I truly don’t know. I’ve looked at them a couple of times myself and am still on the fence as to whether they were used or not.

          And, if I asked, there is no way to know what his answer would be…..but, from the latest Q&A, I see that you don’t ask a question and answer it yourself!!!!! 🙂

          • LOL why not? at least “you” would know you’re not wrong, right?

            Hey PD your a woman. Could you ask fenn,~ after hiding the chest did he go out to lunch? I doubt if he would answer me because I’m not.
            A woman, I mean…
            Although, I’m told I’m always out to lunch, or something about a knife in the draw.

            But I have to go now, I need to get something from the shed for CH. a pail or a garden hose or a water balloon… I need to be careful in there… many sharp tools hanging around.

          • Yep, I guess one can argue that until the chest is found, lots out here is tomfoolery.

  21. That important possibility, imo, is something that Dal has mentioned in one of his post, but no one, not even Dal took notice of it.; the important possibility that is.

    IMO, the HOB is below WWWH. You must fine it (WWWH) b4 you find HOB and then take the canyon down to put in below the HOB.. Now how is WWWH and CD below the HOB? Cannot be. The instructions are to: Go there, then go down, then put in below somewhere, then go up somewhere until the end, you will know the end when you see something, and if you have followed the instructions so far you will see something (blaze), then look quickly down and there it is somewhere within 200 ft.

    That is the recipe directions for finding the chess; now find the elusive ingredients. If you find the main ingredient (wwwh) you are on your way to finding the others and finishing the chase. IMO…..

    • ManOwar,
      Your concept might be missing something else important. The certainty beforehand, the part where the clues references apparently can be discovered at home…just not in practicality of “finding” the chest… And, walk right to the chest.

      You, have a searcher walking out the clues, and down into a canyon… why is that a must do? Where in the poem does it say… you [ a searcher ] needs travel, or could it simply be stating the waters travel.

      Look at it this way; if i gave you a point on a map to go to, you would set a course on that map to get to it, Right?

      But if I gave you a course on a map that lead to a point… would you not go to that point from where-ever you start from?

      Just a different perspective…

      • Seeker, the point on Forrest’s map is not given in a name like, Denver or Taos it’s given in the words of a poem. Tthe directions I gave can be followed on the map mentally or can be followed physically. You can look at the map( let’s say Google Live)find a place called WWH which is in a canyon then follow it down visually till you see the HOB ….etc.. you don’t need to be BOTG until the very end. You can be certain without going to each location just that they fit the clues. Now you can also go to each location physically and be just as certain. Before you go you can be certain by confirming that all the clues you have found will fit the directions that I laid out., and that each clue meets the wording of the poem in some manner ,i.e., Definition, metaphor, word play or imagination. I do believe that one can solve most of the clues at home with a sense of certainty, but they should follow the pattern that I mentioned earlier.

        Yes, you can start the chase from anywhere, but you must first find WWWH to start your journey. I’m not saying it is the first clue, I’m saying it’s the first location to identify. The first clue can be anywhere in the poem that leads you to wwwh then all of the rest of the clues are followed in order. Get what I’m saying?

        • I get it. Thanks for the clarification. However, aren’t we back to the first clues vs. know where to start, line of thinking?

          So, we have the correct wwh out of all the possible ones… how did we get there?
          Is that place, the first true clue? and wwwh is clue two, Or, is the place where the correct wwh just told of ? so we know where to start.?

          lol.. which pickle from the pickle jar would you like?

          I think it’s important to understand ‘how’ we locate “begin it where…” out of all the other possible locations. Not unlike, how we locate and understand which blaze fenn refers to out of all of the blazes… even within that location, nevertheless billions within the search area.

          I wish it was as simple {in concept} as it seems… but the failure of the many who got the first two clues, and didn’t know, should yell out to all… there’s something more to be known.

          Of course, that is my thoughts anyways.

          • Seeker, … I think you need to pick a pickle. lol ….IMO, the third clue is over looked because it’s staring everyone in the face and they can’t recognize it for what it is. IMO, IMO.

            Your thoughts are good but at some point you must commit. Good luck.

          • It’s a waste of time to be concerned
            about billions of blazes.

            Look for the first clue first.

            If you think that you have found it, then look for the second clue, somewhere kinda nearby.

            One clue at a time should be qualified, based on earlier ones.

            All my opinion.

      • Seeker-
        “You, have a searcher walking out the clues, and down into a canyon… why is that a must do? Where in the poem does it say… you [ a searcher ] needs travel, or could it simply be stating the waters travel.”

        Agreeing with those traveling waters . . .

      • Here is the first time stanza two tells you to move:

        Put in below the home of Brown. At no time (if you read it properly and note the grammar) does the poem tell YOU to go down any canyon, the WATERS “halt and take”, not you 🙂

        • Wy, quakesped & Seeker… in keeping with your premise then the WATERS put in below the HOB not YOU. In Fact, you could go further and say that from there the WATERS continue until it finds the blaze. lol

          Who do you think begins the chase? The WATERS or YOU? Let’s get real here, it’s talking about YOU to begin IT not the WATERS. This poem is not about the WATERS finding the TC, its about YOU finding it!

          If YOU have been wise, not if the WATERS have been wise. He’s telling YOU (US) to begin the chase WWWH. OMO.

        • ManOwar,
          The poem is tells ‘you’?
          Hmmmm…
          The challenge is about solving the clues to find a “place”
          The poem clues refer to “places” features… it a map… it tells of details…

          Where in stanza 1 does it mention ‘you’ anything? where in stanza 2 does it say ‘you’ anything?

          It’s not until stanza 4 when “you” come into the picture.
          If we’re being analytical, and thinking and planning and thoughts of the whatIFs, using imagination, and following along within the poem and what it says… you are only wise if you “found” where the blaze is… not to mention the Q&A;
          Clues at home?… “All of them,…”

          I won’t quote the Q&A where fenn stated about not going up and down a canyon… you can look that up for the full question ans answer if you like… and judge for yourself.

          Al you are doing is hoping that is what the poem Might be saying. That’s ok… its seems to be working well so far, right?

          • Seeker wrote:
            The poem is tells ‘you’?
            Hmmmm,
            Yes, for whom did he write it?
            Some place or thing? No, he wrote it for us. So we are the one to find the places in the poem, not the places finding us. ‘It’s straight forward’…I believe he said (paraphrasing)

            6 years now and how’s it working for you? One can ask a million questions and purpose a million ideas, but unless you can snatch on to a clue that tells you WWWH is and commit to it then you are just like the beginner….confused

            You go ahead…. ask more questions and then tell the person who answered them that their thinking and ideas are not what FF meant when he wrote the poem. Good going, keep it up.

        • Apparently ManOwar, you missed the point I was attempting to describe.
          The poem doesn’t say ‘you’ have to do anything until you get to “found the blaze”

          While a physical search should retrieve the chest, the poem is not stating present tense of the searcher until that point. That is when imo, we’re given instructions to actually do something, kicks in.

          Q~ How much progress can be made by someone just thinking and searching the Internet from home? (Another way of saying this: How many clues can only be decoded in situ?) 
          A~ FF: All of them, in theory, but not likely in practice. A searcher must go to the site to find the treasure.

          We { a searcher } may not have to travel anywhere except to the solve section of the poem ~ “If you’ve been wise and “found” the blaze… now you are given instruction to do something an action to look and gaze… with botg there.

          As far as the rest of your comment, Jake must have helped you write that… How long have you’ve been at this challenge? how many trips have you done and came home empty handed? How many questions have rolled around in your head?

          If the blog wasn’t meant to debate theories, discuss Ideas, and overall chatting about the challenge.. why bring up the complaints that say if you haven’t gone on a search your still a beginner line. or commit to one thing and run it into the ground with botg. Even if your wrong… just go, go, go…

          LOL how has that worked for ya’ll ?
          That excuse / reply is really old, and an end run to avoid a real chat about possibilities, and whatIF’s

          I wonder if Sasha as a thrill of the chase dart set for sale… she’d make a killing. Buy 3 darts at 29.99 and just pay the extra shipping and handing cost for 6 more darts free.. and a fortune cookie that read; it will be found this year, again.

          LOL thus far three, I know where it is [ within 3′ 12′ and 50′ and came back with nice pics and new excuses… while getting pats on the back for such a wonderful failed solve.

          “I warned that the path would not be direct for those who had no certainty of the location beforehand, but sure for the one who did.” f

          I’ma gonna go out on a limb here and say the “location beforehand” is the spot the chest lays in wait.

          • With this poem, what is the formula to achieve certainty? I wonder because I have a solve I believe in from armchair. I believed in my clues solution. I had an image in my mind about what the blaze could be. I went to my site but was snowed out to reach my search area though I was close enough to scan around with binoculars. I saw something close resembling my blaze image then scanned around from there and saw interesting potentials. I couldn’t get any closer so I drove back home. I get home and still don’t know for certain if I am close or right at all. I am still not certain of any of it doing both.

          • Seeker, your limb seems very fragile. I wouldn’t go too far out on that limb it’s liable to break and you’ll fall down from your high perch and then you’ll have to start all over and climb that tree from the beginning.

            I would say that the “location beforehand” is the blaze. Didn’t you even say that you must be at the blaze before you could find the TC? That you needed to have BOTG after reaching the blaze.
            How can the “location beforehand” then be the spot the TC lays in wait?

            I think you may have contradicted yourself, but it really doesn’t matter. What matters is finding the first clue.
            Good luck to you.

    • ManOwar, I like your thinking (as shown by your message,
      above). But I believe that your generalizing about “the
      important possibility” is not valid.

      I think your second paragraph is good.

      Good luck with your solving and searching.

      • tighterfocus, Thanks, but what is it about “the important possibility” do you think invalid? Good luck to you also.

  22. “Maybe the mirror we might be trying to understand is; that thought of climbing a mountain just to see where I was.
    It’s an older comment, but one many leave to collect dust.”

    Seeker, what is this referencing? Is this a comment F made somewhere?

  23. Noob question regarding the poem, assistance requested. What happened to the ‘s’ in the word answers between TTOTC and TFTW? Typo? Clue? Which one is officially correct? Thanks in advance.

  24. “As I have gone alone in there.”

    I don’t believe The Flyer is speaking in first person in this Stanza.

    IOW…..iT is not about him.

    SL

  25. pdenver & Sparrow,

    Your comments and my reply to each of them today are no longer….here.

    Regarding my comment that I didn’t believe the first stanza: “As I have gone alone in there” was stated in the context as first person, (The Flyer.)

    SL

  26. SL—
    Thanks. Note to self: don’t make comments about Laos or Grizzly bears because they will be deleted. It’s too bad because I heard this great joke about a Grizzly bear in Laos just yesterday. 🙂

  27. Forrest stated that the poem will take the searcher straight to the treasure and that it would be almost impossible for anyone to just stumble over. I also heard him say that the searcher doesn’t need any specific knowledge of geography. At this point I can only logically conclude that there is a grid or lat/long hidden somewhere in the poem. Any thought?

  28. OK…
    I have watched, listened and participated in a “few” discussions about the poem for a number of years. I have been a first stanza(first clue) advocate since the beginning. Others(rightly so) have advocated that the beginning of the second stanza (BIWWWH) was the first clue. As it turns out…BIWWWH has been identified as the first clue. Thanks/hats off to Loco for his dogged persistence in finding the proof!
    Am I dissuaded by this? Not on your life! In fact…I am grateful that at least we have that. The reality is…that’s not a whole lot really. The real job is to “know” where/what the heck BIWWWH actually is.
    Forrest has told us time and again that folks have identified this place…and there are folks on this blog that swear up and down they personally know for a fact what/where BIWWWH is. I say…the proof is in the pudding and it’s not over until someone brings home the bacon.
    Here’s my point….
    To understand and analyze a poem or other piece of literature, it needs to be taken apart bit by bit, cleaned up so it is more clear. I think in this process folks are reconstructing it to suit their own ideas not pertinent to the actual poem. Back in English Lit. I remember being told that the first and last lines of a poem are often very important to the overall plot. Could this be true with this poem? Or, has Fenn bumped the curb in this too? Another insight from English Lit. and reading poetry that I recall, is that punctuation is a good indicator on how the poem is actually timed and read. Is that the case here? Listen to how Forrest reads the poem…he forces a break at the end of each line, contrary to the actual punctuation. Maybe that is why he forgets the words to a poem he worked on for 20 plus years? Or, maybe he changed the punctuation and not the words? Robert Frost said “Poetry provides the one permissible way of saying one thing
    and meaning another.” I guess he got that right!
    Back to my poetry dissection…

  29. In the poem, “tired” could mean weary or exhausted or “tuckered out”.

    If you look up the discography (specifically the “singles”) of the
    Marshall Tucker Band, I think you’ll be impressed — as I was — by the
    names of many of the songs. I don’t think this is a coincidence, or an
    accident by Forrest. All part of my opinion.

  30. In the poem, he asks (why he must go), and then says , he already knows the answers. So why ask the question? The word “must” can mean that something is imperative, and it can refer to “grape must” a by product of wine making. I never imagined the search area to be wine country, but there are some vineyards. And his mention of Grapette, could be related.

  31. One other thing,. In TTOTC on page 131, He uses the word “cache” to refer to the treasure. Webster’s shows the primary use of the word cache, to mean to “press together”, another possible reference to wine making.

  32. I don’t see any reason, why “begin it” and “put in”, can’t be the same place. Thus putting WWWH, automaticaly below the HOB.

  33. Thought I would throw out there that the phrase “all to seek” formerly meant something very specific. It means at a loss, perplexed or confused about a way forward. Example: “Concerning the location of the treasure chest, I am all to seek-“

  34. Doug Preston, claimed Mr. Fenn said, the poem was so (tricky), that he wouldn’t be surprised, if it took 900 years to solve. And then we have Mr. Fenn saying, that the words in the poem, mean exactly what they say. How can it be both ways???

    • Because there are so many definitions for the 166 words that make up the poem. Let’s say that there are at least three definitions for each of the 166 words. – That’s 498 – Round up to 500 possible words. How many combinations does that make? Numbers confuse me but let’s just say one heck of a lot of possible combinations. Sure, the words mean exactly what they say – but which, of the many definitions for any one particular word are we to chose? Will our choice affect, or be affected by, the word coming before or after our chosen definition? Probably so. So, for me, that is how both statements can be true…. but I go by what Forrest says – he is the one that wrote the poem, and he is the one that knows what each word means – – – to him JMHO JDA

      • Thanks,JDA, My impression was that Mr. Fenn meant, the current common usage of the words, like when he said that the poem was straight forward. The poem seems tricky enough, just the way it appears on the page, and I’ve come to the conclusion that , that is all we get.

  35. I remember, during the first six months of the chase, searchers were focused on the poem. And that was when Mr. Fenn was the most active on the forums. And then searchers feeling that the poem was to ambiguous, started looking for clues elsewhere, and that’s when Mr. Fenn said that people were over thinking the poem, and the more that trend continued, the less Mr. Fenn participated. Just my observations, other’s may have seen it differently.

    • Maybe that wasn’t so clear. My point was that taking the poem at face value, was what Mr. Fenn wanted searchers to do. And when they stopped doing that he backed away.

      • Hi James – IMO taking the poem at face value eliminates the chance for a correct solution. We’ve all seen the results of taking the poem at face value. No chest secured. IMO the architect designed his poem to work very well but it requires a radical adjustment to see what Forrest has included in his poem.

  36. Hi, Hma, Mr. Fenn seemed really happy with the way things were going, until searchers starting re-arranging the stanzas of the poem, and looking for codes, ect. That’s when he first said, “not to mess with the poem”, and that “people were over thinking it”, and that, “the poem was straight forward”. I know this doesn’t help, I just think it’s worth remembering.

  37. I went to look up, the word look, when I saw, the words, “Look Down”, directly below Look. “Look Down” is a type of fish, that live in warm seas.

  38. maybe I have missed this part but has Forrest ever stated why there are 6 stanzas in the poem? He could have done it in any number of stanzas. Right?

  39. @anyone – Ah … the poem. I believe the 1st stanza is simply an introduction. The journey begins with the 2nd stanza at wwwh, continues down the canyon, & ends at the hoB. Those are all directions from FF … telling us what to do. So there the journey stops.

    The 3rd stanza is simply descriptive … no commands from FF. So again the journey is still at the hoB. Then the 4th stanza states that if the blaze has been found, look quickly down. But where WAS the blaze?

    I believe the blaze was to be located somewhere between wwwh & the hoB. That’s literally what the poem says. Perhaps FF did NOT mean it to read that way … or maybe he did. Anyway I believe the blaze is located at wwwh. FF has certainly stressed the importance of the first clue.

    Also if the clues are contiguous (touching), then the 5th & 6th stanzas are out of the running. There must be NO clues in them at all. Because when the journey ends at the blaze in the 4th stanza, that’s it. Treasure found.

      • Nice. Perhaps the first three clues are 3 different locations . Followed by 6 clues each having at least one of the 6 connected to each of the 3 locations; though they may not be evenly distributed. Imagined in imagination only from the start ; moving/ flowing in concert with words to the practical physical journey. Though all can be done physically but the first part is,by him, imagined. IMO .

        Making parking at second location feasible , still following the clues and being almost half way there- figuratively speaking.

        Contiguous creative via imagination to physical application, applicable to in the beginning- begin it then finish. IMO .

        Not sure if I am using the Key the right way, but this is my chosen way of reading The Poem.

    • I wonder if that’s why Mr. Fenn often said, that searchers should memorize the poem, and then go back and read the book slowly?

  40. Does every clue in the poem have to be imagined? It could be that way, but I can’t imagine Mr. Fenn, sending families out searching, without having something tangible (something, that doesn’t have to be guessed at, to at least get started.

    • James;

      Since Indulgence has not yet been found, how can any of us answer your question. We can only guess, and offer our opinions.

      Clue #1 = wwwh. For me, this is a real place. Imagination is used only when one asks the question, “WHY did Forrest choose this place as HIS wwwh location. – “And take it in the canyon down. Is the canyon real? It is for me. Do I have to use my imagination to fit my physical “Canyon” to the definition of a canyon? Maybe so, maybe no.

      For me – Clue #2 – NF,BTFTW – Yes, since I do not know exactly what “TFTW” is to Forrest, I have to use a bit of imagination.

      For me – Clue #3 – “Put in below the home of Brown.” – Yes, a bit of imagination is needed to figure out why “MY” hoB was Forrest’s hoB… and the story behind that choice.

      So, to answer your question – Each searcher must decide for himself what the words mean, and decide how much imagination is required to make a particular “place” fir – JMO – JDA

    • James,

      For me personally none of the clues are imagined, they are real. I believe that you do need some imagination to figure out what some of the clues are. Over all the poem should be followed, hopefully you may find and recognized the clues.

      I personally go with the poem and not worry about what are clues or hints. Imagination has helped me find what I am looking for such as wwwh, hoB & the blaze, but they are real. An imagination to me is a “what if” to find the real place or solution to something in the poem. I believe if one goes for an imaginary clue and it’s not real at all then one can’t find the treasure.

    • Since Seeker seems to be busy/off blog lately I will chime in for him: his most recent comments seem to suggest that it may not be enough to have found the ‘places’, but rather you have to figure out what you ‘do’ once there (use some, a lot of imagination?), before moving to the next clue. I believe his line of thinking is based on the fact so many have been there (first 2-4 clues maybe in order maybe not) but missed the remaining clues/walked by the chest. So maybe to answer you more directly, no, not every ‘clue’ involves imagination, but how to (know with confidence) move between them does?

      Personally, I subscribe to the ‘simplify’ approach, if a redneck w 12 kids was his target, seems to be the level of imagination required may be more ‘childlike’ than most of us like to believe, all IMO, and not trying to pigeonhole rednecks w pickups. But given the lack of success and ‘difficult, but not impossible’ aspects, seems something has been missing, and it isn’t a lack of physical places being explored. I’m a firm believer that a statistical approach may hold some answers…in that we have all these stories of where people have searched to no avail, and surely thousands more that have not been posted to blogs…if we could somehow harvest all of those locations into a single database, use some existing map oriented land reductions (https://dalneitzel.com/2016/05/03/arcgis/) we might narrow down those places that have not been looked at. I have about 3 general areas (but not complete, 9 clue solves) that lie on the ‘fringes’ of the map, that I think have been much overlooked…but several recent comments about being ‘in the mountains’ (IIRC a searcher claims to have been told by FF that he was not ‘in the mountains, despite being in the Rocky Mountains (region?)…please take w a grain of salt, not a confirmed quote by any means) have me re-thinking those. Also, I am biased up the wazoo…my state is WY with a couple recent CO possibles…MT (IMO) is so big (in terms of mountain covered acreage), I discount it, but not just being too big, but the fact that so many have searched HARD in the more likely FF related areas. NM I think is also heavily searched/used up, and rio grande comment excludes a ton of possibilities. Heck even Cynthia has moved on from NM 😉

  41. James, for me,:
    Clue 1- Biwwwh, cannot be solved from poem
    Clue 2- Atiitcd, same as one, close to one
    Clue 3- Ftinpftm, same
    Clue 4- Iybwaftb, same, but marvel gaze can be seen and figured from the poem.
    Clue 5- Jttcagip, can be solved with the poem
    Clue 6- Swiitimg, solved from the poem
    Clue 7- Iditaniw, solved from the poem
    Clue 8- Yewbwtc, solved from the poem, this is “X”, this spot is the coordinates, this spot is where a bell is, this is where you land after clue 7.
    Clue 9- solved from poem, goes with the “key”, this is a distance from clue 8, the key gives a date, clue 9 gives the time and also a distance, it stems from using clue 5 at clue 8, it puts you within 1 foot.

    The one possibility that searchers have not considered= all the clues cannot be solved.

    The poem offers coordinates, the spot of clue 8. Only one way in. One trail, which starts at wwwh. Solving the poem gives coordinates, going there and starting at the one place to use to start your path, is at wwwh. It’s then head south down the canyon, to just inside the tree line to find clue 3. Following the trail until clue 4, which cannot be seen at first but marvel gaze can be.

    So, for me, no imagination really, that comes in the poem solve. Breaking down each line, following the instructions, noticing letter values, and then finding coordinates to put an “X” on the map. Like he said, keep going back to the poem.

    I’ve been out there so I know what the clue references are, at least in reference to my solve. All the ATF’s, book hints, interviews, whatever are support info.

    So, to get started, just follow the poem instructions. Solve the poem to get your spot, go to that spot, on the way you will see the clues on your path, can then understand them, and follow them to the chest…

  42. 99% of searchers totally ignore the poems introduction, pay attention, the poem leads to what besides the treasure? It is clearly printed in English.

  43. —- The poem being a map of the book

    To me stanza one is a riddle, and the answer is “The Memoir” where he went alone, with his treasures bold, he keeps his secret where and hints of riches new and old. I believe that the poem is multiple layers, at least two. You do not need to locate the hints in TTOTC to sovle the poem, but I feel that if you use the poems first layer to locate the hints, it helps remove the vagueness of the clues eliminating the need for trial and error. I also want to mention that many of the aberrations in the book are not hints, they are rabbit holes. My rule is that if the poem did not lead me there, then it isn’t a helpful hint.

    For a while now (me for a year) a few people have found many connections from the poem to the book. I am not going to dive deep into them or explain a solve, but I do want to mention that there are several specific pages being hinted to. I will only mention the first one in the poem. TTOTC sections are clearly not in order, and the only thing missing from the book is a table of contents. Could the poem (map) be the table of contents? Lets see one example…

    First of all lets look at the sentence PRIOR to the poem

    Lead in sentence (page 131-132): “So I wrote a poem containing nine clues that if followed precisely, will lead to the end of my rainbow and the treasure:”
    Stanza one first line: “As I have gone alone in there”

    What do we see here? For starters
    1) The lead in sentence does not end with a period, it has a colon. So where does it end? See the end of this video for how FF uses colons: https://vimeo.com/174230578
    2) It begins with “SO”. As many people have indicated, the word SO means “To the amount or degree expressed or understood”.
    3) If you count the words beginning at SO in that lead in sentence, the 23rd word is “treasure”
    4) The first period that follows the sentence above is at the end of Stanza 1 following the word OLD
    5) The first line in stanza one is 23 characters long from “A to e”
    6) The first line in stanza one has 7 words.
    7) Line one in stanza 1 begins with AS. The word AS means “To the same extent or degree”

    Interesting. 23 seems like it might mean something. Lets go take a look at page 23 in TTOTC (first page of Jump-Starting the learning curve).
    Here is the first paragraph (note the Drop-Cap is “I” from the word IN:

    In 1943 I started the seventh grade in junior high school where my father was the newly appointed principal. It was there that my life really began, but for the first ten years I figured that if it weren’t for my name I wouldn’t have anything at all. Then, when I became a teenager, things just got worse. The good part was that I wasn’t even smart enough to know I wasn’t very bright, until one day my teacher asked, “Forrest Fenn, don’t you know anything?” I replied, “Miss Ford, I don’t even suspect anything.” Then for some strange reason, what I had just said seemed to take on a purpose of its own. It was a primeval thought but maybe it made me think deeper down. No matter what I lacked or lost, bad grades and all, they couldn’t take away my name.
    What do we see here?
    1) If you search the contents of the entire book (with the exception of the cover and copyright of course), this is the ONLY place “Forrest Fenn” appears. So he is alone on page 23.
    2) If we look at the sentence that contains “Forrest Fenn”, the name Forrest is the 23rd word.
    3) You cannot tell by looking at the paragraph above due to not being formatted like the book, but Forrest is alone on the 7th line.
    4) There are 80 words in the chapter preceeding the word “Forrest”, Forrest was 80 years old.
    5) If we count the characters left in the sentence that has his name, the result is 23.

    What I did above works for much more than just the very first sentence. In addtion, there is much more going on than I am indicating, but after some extensive work you should be able to see MANY more connections if you use your imagination and apply the poem to TTOTC. It isn’t just page 23, 109 is another good one and many more.

    The punctuation in the poem also plays a very important role, I will leave that up to you to figure out. I do have a suggestion, lock yourself in a room and ignore the blogs, scrapbooks and other garbage. All you need to do is pay close attention to the words and grammar of the poem, the poem literally tells you exactly what to do if you follow the words precisely (and with correct defintions). Not only does it work with Google Earth, it works with the book too by leading you to the hints directly.

    Forrest even hints to do this with the following statement “”The chapters in my book have very subtle hints but are not deliberately placed to aid the seeker. f”
    As John Brown was so kind to point out: The grammatical subject of that sentence is “The chapters”. Thus the literal interpretation of that sentence is that “The chapters are not placed to aid the seeker.”. If you read the book enough, it is very clear that the chapters are out of order (the clues in the poem are too). The hints in the book will help you not only figure out the exact place WWWH, but will also put the clues in the correct order.

    WARNING: Do not just skim through TTOTC looking for aberrations such as Robert Redford did in fact write a book, this will NOT work, I think he put them there as red herrings. Put it this way, if the poem did not take you there, it probably is not a hint that will help with the clues.

    I do not claim that this is what we MUST do, it is just a theory of mine that does appear to work. I am also sure that I am not the first to notice the connections. There is much more that I can say about using the poem as I do above, but it would give away too much effort. In addtion there are some things I cannot share because other searchers gave me the info after reading my posts, and I do not want to share their secrets. Wish I could though because it would blow you away!

    I am curius what other people think. Please post what you think, don’t just quote something Fenn said without taking the time to back it up like I am trying to do here. If you read it, I’ve already explained how it works regardless of what Fenn said. Many people are not even reading the quotes properly (or the poem for that matter).

    By the way…

    You know the chapter name “Jump-Starting the learning curve” on page 23 is appropriate. Why? Because the lead in sentence and the first stanza basically tell you how to use the poem. A dry run of sorts. The real meat of the clues of course begin at “Begin IT” (Defintion of IT = Used to refer to that one previously mentioned. Used of a nonhuman entity; an animate being whose sex is unspecified, unknown, or irrelevant; a group of objects or individuals; an action; or an abstraction.)

    In other words IT is known by the time you are beginning at stanza 2, because IT was defined in stanza 1.

    Forrest has jump started our learning curve. To a degree… Of course we all know what degree is, and there are 60 minutes to a degree, 60 seconds to a minute”. Food for thought.

      • Now I can get with this thought Wy. It is a way to go about solving the poem. Good job Wy.
        Actually, there are layers to the poem, it makes sense with his comment to go back to the poem, over, and over. I get 4 layers, but that’s me, may be more.
        23 is interesting. I might not have come up with it like you have, but it is important, IMO. For me, it’s the longitude. Looking at it, So could also mean South. Maybe it’s a mirror thing in this case. South, North, would be longitude. Being in the military, f would know his abbreviations, it may be part of the poem, to see abbreviations.
        As far as the poem referencing the book, I’ve only found one line that actually directs you to the book, line 16. “and go in peace”. Put the words “and go”, IN the word “peace”. One way to do that would be first letter, second letter, etc…like:
        p-a-g-e-n-o-a-d-c-e. Page “no A” dce. Or “page dce”. It actually leads to “two people can keep a secret if one of them is dead”. For me, that would be the shadow. Skippy standing up, thought.
        I like what you are finding, I say keep digging, it seems to be a way to solve the poem, and not trying to solve for clues.
        Are you on the thought that the poem will give you a spot, and then reverse engineer, or in looking at the path you must take, gives you your start place?
        It looks like that is the way to look at it. Finding your spot will lead to finding a start place. It’s not that you can solve for wwwh as a clue, but solve for it with a poem solve. Is this your thought? That we be the first couple clues can be solved statement he has made. Still sneaky on his part to word it like he did. People might still be trying to solve for wwwh, thinking he said you can solve it. Only the chest will tell you that you have the right spot. Or, having the spot where the chest is. The actual clues, 3 and 4 need BotG, seems obvious.
        Again, nice work Wy, I like the effort, I hope it pans out for you. A couple number to think about, (22,23,57,66,80,97,113,133,137). I know, means nothing, but if you happen to find these somewhere in your search, they may end up working out, good luck.

        • Thanks for the reply Charlie. I completely agree with you that the poem contains instructions to operate on the poem itself, and also with TTOTC.

          As you already know, there is much more to it than just this.

          I really wish I could say more because not only does the poem tie directly to hints, but when you do what he tells us to do with those book sections, there are things that appear that make it pretty darn obvious that it was not a coincidence.

          It is VERY cool stuff. I talked briefly with someone on another forum (Deepthnr) via private messages, and we shared some notes. His ideas are not exactly the same, and he appears to be ahead of me (thought wise), but we both found the same things in common.

          The cool thing is that once you make the connections to the book, the book itself leaves almost no doubt that you have the right idea for the metaphors he used for each clue. Once you nail the metaphors by using the TTOTC hints, you are now ready to look at the map or GE and make a conntection.

          When I stopped posting last June after a small discussion (argument almost) about Deserts with Forrest (less than 20 hours before he told me I was in the desert, he made the comment about getting a new solve). I took the ending from the solve that sent me to Sarcophagus Butte and replaced it with the ending of a previous solve that is in the Wind River Range of mountains. I sent FF some details about it, but that was when he stopped answering most emails. So I used all summer and fall to go back to the poem and TTOTC, no blogs really (just a little, LOL).

          I really had a lot of time to stay focused. I made plans around the holidays to return to Wyoming in June. My partner lives near Riverton, so we can scout things out very fast. This is making the other poem layer move much faster.

          Am I right? I don’t know and can’t prove anything at this time. Who knows… hehe

          • I did the same, after the first year and a half, realized I was doing it all wrong, took about 3-4 months off, then came back with fresh eyes. Really does help.
            Yes, there are things in the book that not only stand out, but need to be answered with one’s solve. Lol, there are even 9 bindings, or whatever you call them. Just hold the book upside down and count the page bindings.
            It only makes sense that the book would have some things in it, since the poem is in there, why not? The thing is with the statement of: “So I wrote a poem containing 9 clues that if followed precisely will lead to the chest and the end of my rainbow”.
            Early on, people took this as to follow the 9 clues precisely. When we really didn’t know or think that he was really saying to follow the “poem” precisely, not the clues.
            Later on, he said to follow the clues, but of course to follow the poem will lead to the clues.
            It’s finally come around that the important thing to do is to solve the poem. Now, the consensus is to solve the poem not the clues. I’m sure there will still be those that haven’t been out that think they have all 9 clues, but to be expected. That’s why I say by solving the poem, and seeing something within the poem, whether it directs you to the book, comments, wherever, gives you a big step up. When I first started, I thought I had no chance. Dal, Cynthia, and a couple others had 5 months on me, no way I would catch up. Lol, I didn’t think that it would still be out there after 7+ years. Someone could start now, with the info available, still has a chance. It might be slim with f’s current comments, but still has a chance. (ohhh, if someone that has been in the chase for a week, figures it all out and finds it), lol, I don’t know how I would feel about that.
            You know you will get those nay sayers, it happens, they didn’t find what you have found. You still have a lot of adjustments to make, I’m sure, but again, to see an attempt to solve the poem is refreshing. Hopefully, when searchers post their solves, it will begin with, “the poem gave me this spot, this is how I got there”, and not, ‘Purple Mountain in Yellowstone is hoB because purple and yellow is brown, and there is a canyon with warm waters near by”.
            Whether your solve is right or wrong, I believe you are starting to get it…

          • Yeah I hear ya.

            I post because I like to talk. I try to post along with a detailed reasoning for the thought.

            My goal is not to try and force my view on others, but to just start discussions really. If people chose not to agree, that is fine as long as they give a reason (I dislike single comment disagreements).

            But in the end it does not matter to me at all even if nobody agrees. The thing is, until the chest is found, nobody can claim if an idea is correct or wrong. You just read it and either follow similar thinking or not. Clearly after almost 8 years nobody has the chest, so perhaps it is time to discuss new things and stop rehashing the old stuff that happens each year new people come aboard.

            After working on this for almost 4 years, I know it isn’t as simple as we think at first. Just like Lug pointed out an issue with #23, the same can be said about every single word in the poem. There are millions of places WWWH’s, sure it can be solved over thousands of trial and error attempts, or we can do what FF said and use the hints in TTOTC.

            One thing I want to mention about my post. Getting to page 23 and counting words/characters is not exactly how it works. You have to understand the poem and follow it exactly, it changes. But once you do find the connection, TTOTC itself confirms it (I did not say how it confirms it because that is too much to give away). The text on page 23 does confirm it though :0 Same with all other linked pages.

          • Yup, see, 4 years not wasted. For me, it’s the little things. The hints that are so much not a hint, that when they come up to mean something, it’s by design. I get 4 layers to the poem, the last being face value. When all said and done, face value has more meaning. Couldn’t see it at the start, but in the end, checks out.

            No need to give any of you solve away, it was probably a lot of work, everyone that’s been in this for a time knows that. With me, I just don’t give away info that is needed to pinpoint the spot, someone can get to the area, but to not know the rest, they won’t find. That is why I say numbers. They are a must, especially if you see the forest out there. a number system will get you through the trees, be hard to find any points of reference out there without them. And, with the poem not having an “X”, people will overlook the obvious, the numbers. He said 9 clues will take you to the chest, he never said there are only 9 clues in the poem. You are right, the poem does flow, from start to finish.

            23 is part of the story, it will come up. 22 also. So does E. Sloane, Skippy, and some not mentioned. There is a lot scattered around, I guess that’s why so many different solves.

    • WyMustIGo –

      I waited to respond in case others wanted to do so, like the several people on this site that have talked extensively about 23.

      To me, what you are doing you can do with many of the lines as I will illustrate using your own words.

      Jenny doesn’t seem to want to pose my questions to Fenn. Who knows he might have told her not to get specific anymore. I am left talking to you in the form of What If.

      What if I posed the question “Mr Fenn can a person who reads English but cannot count solve the clues in your poem?” What if Fenn replied with something like Yes a person need not count in order to solve the clues in my poem. Would you still follow this line of thinking as outlayed in your comment above?

      I do not mind that people find all these ways to use the number 23, or any numbers, but you must realize that since there are only 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 and 9 they are going to:
      1. Come up repeatedly
      2. Seem, at times, attractive beyond coincidence.

      Finally, are you aware that in your comment above:
      23rd word is KEEPS
      80 words Later NOT
      23 letters after that HINT

      The first paragraph as referenced above ends on that 23 plus 80 plus 23rd word HINT

      That must mean that you ARE giving us a hint since you keep it not.

      Lugnutz Dodge
      PS. How’m I doing?

      • Wy is just in the beginning stages of seeing this as a solve, Lug. Has a way to go, but you have to agree, at least it’s looking at a way to solve the poem. Right or wrong, that puts the attempt years ahead of those that are solving for clues.
        You are right Lug, they do come up to give solutions beyond coincidence. The repeating part, hmmm, too many combinations. I think it’s in the way you find them and the context. But that’s me.
        (0 doesn’t come into play, IMO).

      • I know Lugs, I only posted one of them.

        This isn’t a new revalation for me. Last year when I was banned at Jenny’s I complained, but what it did was keep me off the forums for almost a year giving me a lot of time to focus again.

        I started in 2014 with all the newbie places and failed. Came back in late 2015 and in mid 2016 I started to get some what I thought were solid solves. In May/June 2017 I had a good one, good enough to convince one searcher who been looking since 2011. They agreed so much that they went to look on their own dime (I was sick, doctor would not let me go, last time I was there was in 2016. We did not find the chest, but I wanted to know if the chest was ever there (not confirmation of a solve). So I emailed FF back and forth a few times, he never answered me, but he did say “Look around you… you are in a desert” (paraphrased). Less than 20 hours later he made the desert comment, so right then and there I knew I was wrong (for the curious, I was not in the red desert, I was south of Castle Gardens next to the clay city and Sarcophagus Butte at the end of 136 (Gas Hill Rd) and start of Dry Creek Rd at the Lucky MC mine). We found a very old nook/tiny 12 foot deep cave, more like a cranny really. It can only be seen if you climb the butte and look down over the edge). Anyway, I admitted I was wrong and that was that. Meanwhile the next two weeks I changed the ending of that solve by re-ordering my clues. This time I ended in the mountains and had a new spot. I sent it to FF, no response except to tell me not to send any more solves because his email wasn’t secure. Then came July and pretty much all communication stopped, my place did not change.

        So since July I have been back at the poem to prepare for June 2018. It was around August when I started to find out what the connections to TTOTC mean, and the patterns to get them. At this point I am just about done making final adjustments.

        I posted a picture taken near my blaze here:

        http://forum.hintofriches.com/forum/the-hint-of-riches/1778-thor-s-first-contest-instructions-and-submission-thread-only?p=1850#post1850

        I sent those to Forrest back in July I think, no response of course. But I no longer send anything detailed about my solves at his request. I thought the request was odd because I been sending solutions since 2015 or so and it was never a problem. I only send them because I thought he was interested in how searchers were doing with the poem since he could never test it.

        Anyway, there are many more connections that I did not mention. The only reason I started with page 23 is because that is where the very first line in stanza one sent me. And the lead in sentence (just before the poem) I believe is one of the first hints. It is kind of funny because it is jumpstarting the learning curve 🙂

        There are many chapters that are big, some near the beginning, some near the end (Teachers with Ropes is huge).

        I found the hints a long time ago, but it took a long time to connect it to the poem in such a way that I can use the same algorithms per say to handle other clues too.

        Once all that is done, you still need to tie everything to real geography. It is a ton of work as I am sure you can imagine.

      • BTW, one thing for sure, it is not a coincidence. Unfortunately I can’t prove it without providing details I will not provide. I did give enough info that someone can figure things out, it isn’t as simple as counting words.

        The thing is, when you know what to do, it TELLS you in such a way that there is zero doubt that you did not arrive at the hint by coincidence. I wish I could say more, but honestly I am not trying to sell anyone a book, they can decide for themselves.

        23 is also an important prime number btw.

        • WY –

          I like the effort and ingenuity of your theory.

          I do have some concerns with some of the statements you have made which seem contradictory, so I hope you can take the time to clarify:

          You quoted FF as saying “The chapters in my book have very subtle hints but are not deliberately placed to aid the seeker” but then later go on to say “I really wish I could say more because not only does the poem tie directly to hints, but when you do what he tells us to do with those book sections, there are things that appear that make it pretty darn obvious that it was not a coincidence”. Additionally, much like your premise about the sentence prior to the start of the poem (does it mean the poem needs to be followed correctly, or does it mean the clues need to be followed correctly?), one can argue that FF is saying in the quote listed that the chapters are not deliberately placed OR that he is saying that the hints are not deliberately placed; However, either interpretation seems to invalidate your whole theory of the deliberateness of FF’s word/hint/chapter placement. In other words, if the poem is telling the seeker to go to the page/chapter/word in TTOTC book, that seems to be the epitome of deliberate, hence contrary to the quote from FF you referenced.

          You later go on to give your opinion that “it is very clear that the chapters are out of order” and further opine that “the clues in the poem are too”. Your second opinion seems contrary to the following quotes from FF: “The first clue in the poem is begin it where warm waters halt” and “You should start with the first clue and follow the others consecutively to the treasure. Hints in the book are not that organized” and “Well, in my book there’s a poem, like I said. And there are nine clues in the poem. And the clues are in consecutive order.”

          Can you elaborate on how you are not contradicting yourself in the examples above?

          • “Emily, All of the information you need to find the treasure is in the poem. The chapters in my book have very subtle hints but are not deliberately placed to aid the seeker. Good luck in the search. F”
            4/4/13

          • @Ken – The CHAPTERS are not deliberately placed, the hints are. You need to read the quote properly, the subject is chapters, not hints, the verb applies to the subject. Pretty straight forward.

            @Bowmarc – The chapters are out of order if you read from page 1 to the end. The poem sends you in a different order. When you arrive at the correct page, there is a way to know that it is not a coincidence that you arrived at the spot. Forrest even does a few funny things. That is the part I will not elaborate on because everyone would easily discover the rest.

            What I will say is that it appears that the poem instructs you not only on where to go (one example was the word count), but what to do when you get there. When you do it, it becomes clear that it is no accident. The process works with multiple clues, not just 23. Wish I could say more, but what I posted works. Creative thinking (and paying attention to every word in detail in the poem) and a lot of hard work, someone can figure it out.

            A good excersize is to convert the entire book to digital format, it is worth the effort. But I will warn you that formatting matters, by formatting I mean word wrap, and the same page numbers with the same text that match the book).

          • Wy, it is clear that you have put a lot of work into studying TTOTC as it relates to the poem. It could ultimately prove to be a correct way to tackle it. Without the chest who knows?

            Thanks for sharing. I honestly believe that sharing our thoughts here is a good thing and people should be less afraid to do so. I know the blogs are mostly for entertainment but it is hard to say how much of an impact peoples ideas are having on others even if a small amount. One statement that someone makes could spark a searcher to think differently and maybe in a good way. That being said, I have found that many won’t believe theories or methods that others have unless they have come up with them themselves.

            If I were the one to find the treasure I think I may post the correct solve as theory first just to see how many people will blow it off or argue how it doesn’t work 🙂

          • WY – Ok, I kinda see the point now of stressing chapters versus hints, but am still not able to ride the backwards bike…LOL.

            The trouble I am still having with your premise is that what FF has defined as chapters contain the hints that you are numerically equating. FF must have had to deliberately place each chapter so that the hints you are finding within said chapters align with your theory because the sentences, paragraphs, etc. of that chapter make up the content of what FF is telling us within his titled chapters.

            I suppose FF could always go off on a tangent about anything he wanted to despite the chapter title because he makes his own rules, so deliberately placing a hint within a random chapter at a precise spot could validate your distinction between chapters and hints.

            Interesting indeed.

            Have you tried to rearrange the chapters of the book based upon how the lines of the poem are revealing the hints? In other words, if you rearrange the chapters in the order that the lines from the poem dictate, does that reinforce that the clues in the poem are consecutive as FF has stated?

          • Wy…your posts are interesting in regards to another method of trying to decipher the clues. Kudos for the time you have put into it. I just do not believe that is the route to take.
            There are always alternate/opposing interpretations of what Fenn says as has been shown for years.
            His reply to Emily is a great example.
            This is a treasure hunt that requires deciphering the clues in Fenn’s poem. He has informed us that there are “subtle” hints in TTOTC that will help with the clues…so I think that the “hints” are the subject of interest. If they(hints) are not deliberately placed…that makes them fit the definition of subtle…along with how obscure or vague they may be.
            Keep on trucking and good luck.
            Simplify….

          • Ken

            I am not disagreeing with you but Fenn wasn’t necessarily telling us to simplify. He .at be giving a clue, and said he was, and the word Simplify may be the clue.

            It’s curious in that it sounds like a potential Fennerism like Flutterby. Perhaps we should think about what the word might represent.

            Like simple fly.
            Or perhaps simply fly

            Lugnutz

          • Lug;

            Or you could try not to complicate it, and take him at his word – Simplify – Just a thought – JDA

          • Hey Lugnutz…that’s a good thought for sure. There seems to be something more there than meets the eye. That is why I ended with…simplify. Who the heck knows !

          • Best we can do is come up with ideas, the sad thing about the chase is that if the finder does not want to tell, we may never know where it was or the solution 🙁

            I really appreciate the comments, even if they do not agree with me. I am not out to try and convince anyone, all I did was provide one example that works just to show, there are more, but honestly I cannot prove it is right or wrong, so I like to just get people thinking.

            I try to do it without a complete solve because I do not claim to have one of those that I would share. Besides, sharing a solve is a sure way to get a boot in the butt and eat crow! LOL

            Anyway, I appreciate the feedback and noted all the replies good or bad. There isn’t much more for me to say about it, just worth pondering, it might help someone. Maybe I am close but missed something and it makes a lightbulb go on for another searcher 🙂

            Peace

          • @Ken, disagree with your comment,” This is a treasure hunt that requires deciphering the clues in Fenn’s poem.”
            With his new 6 questions with Jenny, it seems that the info to decipher all the clues is not in the poem. He said you need to go out there and find, paraphrasing, BotG. So, the info to decipher all the clues is just not given to us. All the poem does is gives us a spot. To get to the spot, we have to start somewhere, wwwh, and proceed to the spot. Into the canyon. The 3rd clue is not solvable. You’re looking at BotG. Same with 4th.
            The only way to decipher the first clue, wwwh, is by solving the poem and getting that final spot. That is why he said, you won’t know you have the correct wwwh until you have the chest.
            Another comment, “If you are able to decipher the first few clues in the poem, you can find the treasure chest”.
            The only way to decipher the first few clues is by solving the poem, mapping your path, starting at the beginning, and following that path. With the end spot, the start would be obvious, following the path to the canyon and onward is just following the path. The 3rd clue must be smaller. Something Google Earth cannot see. Only on your path will you recognize what it is. Nothing in the poem tells you what it is. Same with forth. Beings how he doesn’t know for sure if the searcher has the first four clues or not, tends to the assumption that it must be the blaze. It’s the only thing that he has said will throw the searcher off. Since he knows the clues, it must have been a picture. The searcher didn’t actually know though. Any other form of communication to f about the 4th clue, f would know for sure if they knew or not. Only a picture. Which also means it’s smaller, or Google Earth cannot see it. BotG.
            We no longer are looking to solve each clue. That is the wrong approach, need to find the spot by solving the poem.

            Lug’s right, he said simplify, but he didn’t say what to simplify. He could be talking about the solve, the poem, the clues, his car rental, his life, we don’t know. To use that statement to reference that he is talking about the solving of the poem would not be accurate. Simplify the clues? Pretty simple when the info is not given to solve a clue. You can’t.
            So many solves out there that the searcher thought they solved all the clues before going BotG, all impossible now because the info is not there to be solved. Like I said, the one thing that searchers have not come to realize for a winning solve is that all the clues cannot be solved. Unless you have solved the poem, and have your spot from it, you cannot decipher the first clue. You basically have to be done to start…

          • Charlie, Charlie;

            So many FACTS stated by you. I find it amazing that after over two years at this, I am just now learning of these FACTS that you so eloquently state in your posts.

            I am sure that the newbees will be glad to read all of these FACTS. With these newly disclosed FACTS, they just might solve it.

            This is of course, Just MY OPINION – JDA

          • Charlie – you said “You basically have to be done to start…”.

            This reminds me of an error in Microsoft Excel about a circular reference.

          • In all seriousness Charlie, let’s explore some logic around “You basically have to be done to start…”.

            What if that were true in some way?

            Let’s say I had a solve and a clear “location” or “spot” that I knew was correct, but I didn’t find the chest or have any real “feedback confirmation” the location was correct. However, apply a special way of looking at the location (compared to other locations) like a Tarry Point circle. If one overlays it over the location and it somehow ties back to a perfect theoretical start point then…that is the 100% validation that the spot is correct. See link here for a Tarry Point circle example:

            https://postimg.org/image/min3ulojb/

            So back to the counterintuitive “You basically have to be done to start…”. I guess one could say that’s possible. Would it explain why this whole chase has been so incredibly difficult to solve?

            Above contains points that are my opinion, other points that may not be my opinion, and, finally, other points that make absolutely no logical sense at all. IMO

          • Charlie….lol. Folks are going to interpret every aspect of this hunt in a myriad of ways. Just in this thread alone one can distinguish the variety of view points.
            It is fairly clear that folks individually latch onto a potential idea/avenue and hang on for dear life. Some eventually run the gamut and realize it’s a bust…but some refuse to “adjust”. That is the nature of the beast.
            Your X marks the spot theory in relation to the poem just does not fit for me. I’ll stick with actually working on solving the clues and what they mean. Fenn has made a lot of comments in this regard…so…I’m sticking with that approach.
            Thanks for sharing Charlie, and good luck.

    • WyMustIGo,

      The definitions you gave of IT which included; “an action”, is just that “an action” to start solving the poem. Further in the same stanza it says, “And take it” is also and action. The first “IT” is to start, and the second “IT” is to go.

      I’m not a fan of using numbers at all. Yes I am a purist, I listen to the words in the poem as F has indicated to read the poem over and over, [ not a quote, but common knowledge].

      I’m not making any effort to twist words by using other definitions for a certain word. I take the words in the context of the poem.

      Yes, I have read the book, TTOTC a couple of times, but I primarily use the poem. The words in the poem gives the directions, if not followed one will get lost. My solve does not consist of theories, just directions given.

      I can only say wait until spring. 🙂

      • WyMustIGo,

        I also wanted to add, you said, “it is very clear that the chapters are out of order (the clues in the poem are too).”, I completely disagree that the clues in the poem are out of order. That is like saying the stanzas are out of order. This makes a very big quagmire of zigzags and going backwards and forwards.

        My advice for most is not to depend a lot on the books subtle hints, but put a great deal of emphasis on the poem. There are many words and sentences in the book that can create many rabbit holes. Yes there are subtle hints but some of what you think are hints in the book is much like WWWH as there are many, it’s the correct one.

        You also said, “I believe that the poem is multiple layers, at least two.” I say,there is only one layer to the poem, which is a surface map. The 1st & 5th stanzas have no hints or clues they are statements and 1 question.

        All together I wish you luck!

        As always my opinion

        • I follow Forrests advice, he tells us to read the poem and TTOTC over and over to find the hints.

          Also, Forrest tells us that the chapters are NOT in order to aid the searcher. To me that means exactly what it says and that is why I feel that way.

          People misinterpret FF all the time. He never said the hints are not deliberately placed, he said the chapters themselves (that contain the hints) are not deliberately placed.

          We only have the poem and TTOTC, but really just the poem. So it makes sense that we read it properly. Most don’t, they assume the poem is telling us to go down a canyon when the lack of a comma before the conjunction “and” clearly means the waters “halt and take”. Well the same holds true for the chapters statement. The sentence subject is “chapters”, in the poem stanza one subject is “waters”. It is incorrect to think that a poem “thought” ends at a line feed, we need to account for the punctuation (or lack of) otherwise we are messing with his poem.

    • I do not know how accurate most of this is but I do believe that you are right about IT being defined in stanza 1. It is I and I am not FF.

      • No that isn’t exactly what i think.

        Stanza one is a riddle, the answer is “The Memoir” based on the definition of Memoir (which is different than an autobiography).

        I think that stanza one defines IT with IT being a series of steps we are to begin at stanza 2. These steps are multi-layered. You can take the steps within TTOTC itself to get to the hints. The hints verify and remove the vaguness of the clues in the poem. You then marry the clues to a map and take the same steps on the real map.

        You can skip the TTTOT hint step, the poem can be solved with just itself. BUT that would require the process of elimination, it is a brute force effort that could take decades to perform. So it makes sense to use TTOTC hints to not only figure out the clues, but the proper order of the clues. We need to “follow the clues precisely” which means an exact location, but also in order. The clues are contiguous, but that does not mean they are in order. The POEM is in order, if that makes any sense. It is hard to explain this stuff without giving everything away.

        • Thanks Wy for trying to explain, I’ll admit that my gut feel is that your methods sound complex, not necessarily difficult, but complex, opposite of simple. Just another question for ya – so above you’re talking that we must account for punctuation, etc. Can you explain your thoughts about stanza 1 being a riddle? I view a riddle as in the form of a question…yet the punctuation in stanza 1 is clearly not a question mark…the only riddle aspect to me is that the wording makes you wonder what it means…that is what does he mean by hint of riches…or secret where? But the grammar/language are clearly (on the face/straightforward idea) statements, not questions, care to elaborate?

          I sure hope at some point you are able to share more details, the ideas are intriguing, but I too struggle with the ‘subtle hints’ aspect of the book, and you appear to have taken that to the extreme that, IMO, you’re saying there are way more than a couple/few hints in the book, more like 5-9 or more?, is that correct? Or are you just saying you’ve found hints in TTOC based on the ‘instruction’ lines of the poem…is that 2-3 lines or all of them? I can assure you I’m not fishing for details to reverse engineer your approach, this is just discussion.

          Also, really liked that photo with the stumps…unfortunately I’ve seen places that look just like that more than a few times in my years in WY/CO…I’m sure you have more that links to that spot, but we won’t know what that is until you do/don’t have the chest. I’m def not a numbers guy, but I do like to stretch my mind – he was a pilot after all, navigation (using numbers) is very important, so I get it that it is a very plausible possibility. I of course don’t have the answer to how you would get to a precise 10″x10″ square area out of millions of acres in the rocky mountains, but I believe the ‘only way in’ comment has a lot to do with it (no proof of course, as I have yet to land at a spot that fits that in a ‘straightforward’ way). Keeping my options open, this has been interesting.

          • Tbug—

            The riddle may actually be “So why is it that I must go?” Whcih begs the question: should this stanza come BEFORE “As I have GONE alone in there?” hmmmmm.

          • TBug, I found that the poem sent me to TTOTC. I think Stanza one riddle = The Memoir.

            The very first line in the poem tells me “As I went alone in there”. So I searched the book to find out where he was alone in the book. Page 23 is the only place (with exceptions I noted) that you will find “Forrest Fenn”.

            So from “As” to “there” we have 23 characters. After I noticed that the E in there was the 23rd which matched page 23, I looked deeper.

            I found the lead in sentence that appears in TTOTC just before the poem “So I wrote a poem”… If you count that from So to treasure, you get 23 words.

            Go back to page 23, find “Forrest Fenn”, his first name is the 23rd word in the sentence. If you count the remaining characters after his name, there are 23 which again matches the page.

            Now if you process page 23 with the poem, it reveals a hint that kind of links back to the poem, sort of as if to say you are making progress. I did not elablorate on this part because it gives too much away, but I will give you a hint, the formatting in the book matters.

            After that, I then tested this out in other parts of the poem and found similar links, for example there are links to “Teachers with Ropes” on pages 108-109.

            The beauty of it all is that you DO NOT have to use the book to solve it. In no way am I saying the book is required 🙂 However, if you want to take advantage of the hints, the poem appears to be multi-layered in that it maps to the book and to the real world. So Forrest did not lie when he said all you “need” is the poem. He said to read/study the poem and TTOTC. That is all I am doing.

            Important: I am not saying that you count the characters on a line and jump to that page, it doesn’t work that way. The reason I started with page 23 is because the poem said “As I have gone alone in there” and I wanted to see where he went alone. I have a personally made digital copy of the book, so finding things is fast.

            I have no problem if people do not agree, that is cool with me because we cannot prove it is wrong or right, and I like both negative and positive feedback because it might lead to a better understanding.

            Its all good.

          • WY I know your answer, but what was the question! Thanks for those clarifying statements, I get where you’re going. As for the ‘alone’ = his name, I think that is a bit of a leap…but not saying its wrong, just not how I interpret it…you asked ‘where did he go alone’…I would look for the where not his name, but sure, you noticed that his name was only in there once…I think the numbers of letters/words seems arbitrary…are there rules to when you use letters vs. words? I’m a longtime skeptic of number solves, but your ideas are different enough to spark some interest.

            I will admit FFs phrasing, especially very early in the book suggests some odd things might be goin on, but I’m not sure finding coincidences correlates to intention (probability with numbers/alphabet shows funny things can happen very quickly)…not saying you’re wrong…the worst problem I have right now is my book is not in my possession so I can’t look any deeper. I will say I was late to the book party (seems good and bad in that I read a lot here first, and the book came much later), I first heard about the chase in 2013, just got the book in Nov 2017…unfortunately I only got through it once (I gave to my dad who recently had a hematoma and subsequent brain surgery…no need for sympathies, he is doing very well). I do very much intend to do some multiple readings when I get my hands back on them. Anyway, thanks for the replies.

          • Sparrow,
            My interpretation of: So why is it that I must go…..I have done it tired and now I’m week… Everyone must go eventually. He has done many things in life and now he is older and cant do as much as he was able to do (IMO).

  44. Couple more things.

    The lead in sentence states “nine clues that if followed precisely”.

    How do we do things with precision? We measure them, maybe borrow Frosty the ruler?

    But wait WymustIGo, the poem is text, how do we measure text? Ahhh Grasshopper, text is measured with things such as Word counts, character counts, paragraph counts, sentence or line counts, syllable counts. The ones you use are hinted at in the book and in the poem. Poetry is also measured with FEET, but that would require too much special knowledge, so we stick with the basics that even children know.

      • could it be that the word that is key is not in the poem. like a chest with a key, the key is needed to unlock a chest. if the key is separate from the chest then the chest wont open. i wonder if a word that is key is suppose to be combined with the poem to give direction

        • Hi Goldenbrickroad;

          Welcome to the chase. Do I think that the word that is key is found in the poem? Answer = NO.
          Do I think that it must be combined with the poem? Combined? – Not sure what you mean by that. Added to the poem somehow? No, I do not think so.

          Is there somehow a “Theme” to the poem, and the word that is key relates to that “Theme”? then, the answer is yes. JMO – JDA

          • Imagine for a moment that the poem is a very special fabric. Upon very close examination one can see a golden thread running through that fabric. The “Word that is key” is the needle that inter-wove this golden thread within the fabric.

            Too much imagination? Think about it – JDA

          • JDA,
            Are you still in the Wyoming camp of searchers? Actually, this is just a test message to see if my posts are successful.

            Thanks,

          • Seems all my posts have been sent to the twilight zone for the past week One went to JDA and the other one went to Twingem. Wish I could remember now what they were then. Anyway, both are complimentary to JDA who I every confidence in and twingem ho should take up professional writing. JDA if you are the winner in finding the loot I hope I am the first to say congratulations.

          • thanks jda. i agree . I think that the word it can be substituted for a certain word. it reminds me of the smurfs cartoon. the smurfs would say smurf it for me.. meaning get that for me. i think put in means turn in not get out and hike. and why is it that i must go and leave my trove to seek. i have something for that. I might be crazy but it all fits not forcing it. i would share more but fenn said someone will find it this summer and i might have said to much. i want another chance at my solve. my first botg was to short. i had a day before my flight. i slept in my rental and was in the sun one minute and wet cold the next.

  45. WyMustIGO:

    My solution involves a similar back and forth between poem and TToTC. It’s good to see someone else rambling down this path, too. I suspect a lot are but ain’t talking

  46. CharlieM—

    I appreciate your input and interpretation– I sincerely do. I began my search at end of July 2016. For a long time I left the poem as is. One day I noticed a suggestion JDA had made about a riddle beginning with a question. That actually made really good sense to me. He had stated that he had tried putting stanza 5 and 6 on top of the poem so that it ends with “Just take the chest and go in peace”.

    This also made very good sense to me. Now, the poem starts with GO before GONE referring to “I”, and then ends with GO again, except it is YOU who are going— with the chest.

    At first I thought this might be messing with the poem— but I don’t think so, since you are not changing any words, or punctuation. The poem still says the same thing, you are just changing the order of the stanzas.

    I will also add that I have seen strong confirmation that this should be done (stating more would give away a solve I am working on) that I have found very intriguing.

    So, I believe that JDA is suggesting a very valid way of looking at the poem IMO. But as always, all the best to you in your search.

    • Thanks Sparrow for the kudos. I, in turn, should thank Seeker, for I believe that I got the idea from him. And so the wheel turns. I wish that seeker would/could return I miss his input on the poem – JDA

    • Sparrow,

      You said, “The poem still says the same thing, you are just changing the order of the stanzas.” In essence you are moving the stanzas out of order so you can justify putting “go” before “gone”, which is truly changing the poem. Even if you are thinking, saying it, the structure of the poem has changed.

      That in it’s self is what you are doing is moving a clue(s) and/or hints. Didn’t F say that the clues are in consecutive order? If I tried to do what you and JDA are doing I wouldn’t know where to look at the very end to retrieve the TC. Some think the blaze is the last clue just because it says “Look quickly down, your quest to cease,” which is not the case.
      The 4th stanza does not tell you what to look at for the hiding place, the 6th stanza does.

      I say all in a kind way and to each it’s own. 🙂

      As always my opinion.

      • CharlieM;

        You say, “The 4th stanza does not tell you what to look at for the hiding place, the 6th stanza does.”

        The 4th stanza says,
        “If you’ve been wise and found the blaze,
        Look quickly down, your quest to cease,
        But tarry scant with marvel gaze,
        Just take the chest and go in peace.”

        Line 1 says – “If you’ve been wise and found the blaze” This (at least to me” says that if I had figured out what the blaze was therefore I already KNOW what “to look at”. then

        “Look quickly down” When I find the blaze, look quickly down” implying that I should look “below” the blaze, and then, “But tarry scant with marvel gaze,” – don’t spend a lot of time lolly-gaggin’ (Interp.) just “Take the chest and go in peace.” – end of quest, end of clues – period. Or that is how I see it.

        I am sure I will not convince you CharlieM – and that is OK. Part of the fun of the chase is exchanging ideas with those that do not agree with you. Keep smilin’ JDA

  47. CharlieM;

    Dal asked that we move over here – so here I am.

    CharlieM – IF you find Indulgence, then I will gladly give you a bottle of VERY FINE Brandy, and congratulate you, and say, “You were right.”

    As you said: If, on the other hand it is I who find Indulgence, I will enjoy the toast from ya’ 🙂 Happy Hunting…and I do like a fine brandy once in a while – JDA

  48. JDA/CharlieM/Sparrow and anyone else following along on the stanza-reordering idea. If all the clues are in stanzas 2, 3 and 4 (as I believe), it ~may~ not make any difference if you choose to read the poem in the order 5-6-1-2-3-4. Stanzas 2-4 would still be in order and contiguous, so the clues within would still be in the correct order. Forrest has made no stipulations regarding the ordering of hints, or for that matter ever admitted there are hints in the poem at all (though I think most searchers believe there are).

    Now, where you can get into trouble is if there are any critical hints that are not wholly contained within a stanza. Just as an example, if a hint happened to span stanzas 4 and 5, the seemingly harmless reordering that Sparrow and JDA suggest would destroy that hint. I’m not saying there IS such a hint in those stanzas, just pointing out one scenario where harm would result.

    • If there is such a problem Zap, I have not encountered it.

      In the VERY BEGINNING – over 2 years ago; I used the “hints” in stanza’s 5 and 6 to direct me towards wwwh. “Your effort will be worth the cold” and “…brave and in the wood” told me that my search was to be in the mountains. Which mountains, I was not sure yet, but in the mountains.

      Then – “Alone in there” from stanza #1 told me that I had to enter (go into) a special place “In the mountains”

      Next step – I figured out that “The wood” of “If you are brave and in the wood” – led me to a very specific geographical place in Wyoming. Finding my wwwh was fairly easy from there. Once I had my wwwh I quickly found the canyon, and my hoB. Two days later my “Meek place” and my “creek” and my “END” place. My end place gave new meaning to the “Brave” and in the “Wood” – “In the mountains” – It all began to fall in place – At least for me.

      Steps 1,2 & 3 of solving the poem – or something like that. 🙂 JDA

          • That’s just a crossing. It looks bad but it’s actually only a foot deep and not what it seems

        • I guess I am slow – It took a second look to see the “IT” written out on the wall with water seepage – cute – cute – If just might be “IT” – JDA

          • Yes it is. I’ve went there. Upside down y underneath.
            Getting to this point I had to start at wwwh and correctly follow the clues. The entire first solve is just to get you on the playing field for botg. Once I was there the poem changed and had to be solved again to the next marker. Then the next, then the next. This is one of the reasons it took a long time to write the poem, he wasn’t just writing, he was setting up the playing field.
            My opinions anyhow

    • I agree that the order of the stanza’s do not mean as much as long as you keep the clue stanza’s in order and separate from the hint stanza’s. That being said I believe that the I in the first stanza may not be FF and the I in later stanza’s could be FF. The theory is that the stanza’s sound similar to throw us off a little but talking about different things. As I have gone alone in there being something different. Why must I go being FF. Not sure if it’s right but it’s one way I have been looking at the poem.

  49. Every stanza in the poem are relevant to finding the treasure except for stanza 5. It starts with a question, “So why is it that I must go and leave my trove for all to seek?” That question IMO does not help one in finding the treasure.

    His question can lead to things like:
    To share his wealth
    To get people out to explore
    Or both.

    I believe the treasures and artifacts that F has found were through exploration based on records and geographic locations from past history. I believe he wanted to share his experiences buy creating a lost treasure with vague information, possibly like the little information he had to work with.

    I believe that is what stanza 5 is for, its related to the treasure but will not guide to the TC location.

    As always my opinion.

    • CharlieM;

      Stanza #5:
      So why is it that I must go And leave my trove for all to seek?
      The answers I already know,
      I’ve done it tired, and now I’m weak.

      Lines 1& 2 of this stanza – which I joined purposely – has “go” and “leave” in the same sentence. Isn’t this a bit odd?
      Could “go” and “leave” = leaves? Could leaves be a hint?

      What about the meanings of “tired” and “weak”? You do not think that these two words, and their definitions could be hints? I certainly do. Put your imagination to work a bit. Tired can mean wanting to lie down – A desire to be prone (or close to the ground). Weak can mean “watered down” like a “watered down” drink Could these two terms together be hinting to the searcher that the treasure is low to the ground, in a wet or “Watered-down” area – possibly a wet and boggy area? Sure seems like hints to me.

      Who knows though? Maybe you are correct. JMO – JDA

      • JDA,

        With all of the excavations and at a time diving for ruins, do you think that, “I’ve done it tired” is hard work that F has done through most of his finds? I know I would be tired from excavating and diving. I know about diving, and I’ve been tired after a good dive. Moving dirt is not easy.

        As for, “now I’m weak” I believe when most are 80, you are not as strong as you were in the past.

        I don’t think there are any clues. Didn’t F say “simplify” a while back? My imagination I believe does not take into account going beyond the meaning of the words for stanza 5 and of course stanza 1. I strongly believe there are no hints or clues in either stanza. If you thinks so, does it not create complicated rabbit it holes?

        As I said before I am a poem purist and I try not to overly complicate with hidden meanings. Parts of the poem is a map and there IMO is nothing in both of the stanzas 1 & 5 that has no indication of movement.

        Of course to each his own.
        IMO always

        CharlieM

    • CharlieM—

      It’s amazing how varied everyone’s ideas are on this blog. And that’s a good thing. I actually think that “So why is it that I must go?”is very important. Being able to answer “why?” may be the key step in finding out “where” the treasure is. “Why” may be more important than “where” in the end.

      It’s very interesting to compare these sentences:
      SO why is it that I must GO?
      SO hear me all and listen GOod.
      Just take the chest and GO in peace.

      I don’t know Charlie— seems kind of important to me. All IMO of course.

  50. Just messing around today with flutterby…

    As I have gone alone in there
    As I gave one a lone tin here
    As I gave one a lone thin hair

    and with my treasures bold,
    and wi(d)th by measures told,

    I can keep my secret where,
    I can weep my secret care,

    and hint of riches new and old.
    and hint of niches rewand (ruined) old.

    LOL 🙂

  51. Hi JDA — replying here to your last post on “Theory for When Forrest Hid…” thread. I feel there may be a hint that spans stanzas, but it won’t be fouled by the ordering you’re using, so no real harm.

    I guess the question is why alter the stanza ordering? Is it specifically because you feel the poem/puzzle should start with a question? Or is it that you want your hint stanzas grouped together like the clue stanzas? On this latter point, I will add that I am confident there are hints in all six stanzas, and since Forrest has basically said that his hints are not presented in any particular order (recognizing that he’s never actually admitted there are hints in the poem), reordering the stanzas wouldn’t really accomplish anything in my case.

    • I reordered the stanza’s to put the question – “So why is it that I must go And leave my trove for all to seek?” at the beginning. – since most riddles begin with a question.

      It also seemed logical that: “But tarry scant with marvel gaze,
      Just take the chest and go in peace.” was the last sentence.
      (Find Indulgence, and leave)

      Once I had decided that the “clues” were in stanza’s 2,3 and 4 – this meant that stanza’s 5,6 and 1 had to be hints- – -since Forrest had said something like it would be foolish to discount any of the words in the poem (Paraphrasing) – and hints usually DO come before the thing that is being hinted at (the clues)

      As it turns out I used the 6 stanza’s in my 5,6,1,2,3,4 order unconsciously in the beginning. Elements in stanza’s 5 and 6 told me where to look “in there” from stanza 1, and then I began my journey at wwwh.

      Long answer to a short question – sorry – JDA

      • I thought it may have something to do with the order of the hints or the multiple laps through the poem. Am I right in thinking that it sounds like though that you just like the way it reads this way and the order doesn’t really matter to you?

        • I used all six stanza’s for lap one through the poem. After that, I find that I need only follow the “Clues” in stanza’s 2,3 and 4 for the next couple of laps. For the final lap, I again use both clues and hints – all six stanza’s – Does that help? – JDA

  52. Question….
    When googling and reading, I sometimes come across a Mr. Fenn’s poem which has been quoted wrong.
    Ok, that is not a surprise…gee, it is the Internet.
    Yet, one poem, which is wrong, looks just like it came out of his book. You see the colored map and everything. It looks copywrited and everything.
    I read ….
    “Answer” instead of “answers”.
    Anybody else notice this?

    • this “answers” vs. “answer” was addressed many years ago… I looked for a few minutes, but couldn’t find ff quote about it- i feel it was like it was something like “you decide which one is right…” but that’s probably not even close… i’m so sorry i can’t find it… but the discrepancy was definitely addressed when Too Far To Walk first came out.

      • Hi Leigh: I think you’ve got the gist of it. Forrest said one was a simple typo, and something like “you choose” in response to the searcher who posed the question as to which was correct. My recollection was that the searcher was considering a solution that depended on letter counts, and thus answer vs. answers probably made a difference. Forrest’s answer strongly suggested that answer vs. answers did not make a material difference.

        • Sparrow: certainly your prerogative. I choose not to chase red herrings because Forrest says there aren’t any. I think the answer/answers difference will end up having no material relevance to the chase.

          • What would be something else is if “answer(s)” was a word that is key.

            Just a question. Could someone “start” a poem, bury a treasure, add an “s” to a word in the poem and then call the poem “written”?

            lol.

  53. It’s kind of interesting. Sometimes adding an “s” to a word completely changes it, and the “s”‘is needed. Like million and million(s). The “s” makes a huge difference.

    Sometimes adding an “s” is unnecessary and wrong if you do so. Example:
    1 moose: “Look at that moose”.
    2 of them: do you say “look at those moose’s?” Adding an “s” is incorrect English.

    Is “the answers I already know” proper English? Kind of interesting actually.

    • sometimes adding an s sounds like z…

      “As I” = “Az I” = “A” is I = Iz =
      Eyes have gone alone in there.

    • I had been thinking that the possible meaning(s) might include “The (Candy) Ann swears I already know” . . .
      but I didn’t think it would be helpful in finding the TC.

      No big deal, as far as I’m concerned. I’m not gonna cry
      over spilled info.

      All IMO.

  54. or… start at the beginning-

    As I have gone alone in there
    And with…

    there and with = therewith =the ruth= Ruth Hall Museum of Paleontology (Abiquiu NM)

    or “the” is “a word that is key- alone in there = aloNEIN THEre =89
    (ff said something about writing backwards)
    highway 89 into yellowstone? and architecturally- maamoheht –
    m in warm to a in canyon- a in 2nd far- m in home- left to oh eht (if “the” was a word that is key, you just turn it)- hint in book? i forget the page by now- but i remember what i thought- end of chapter in TTOTC about not going to college, and getting kicked out of somewhere fARM-toMarket… and not knowing what road to turn, and turned left ( oh eht)

    or As= big Arsenic Springs NM

    or my treasures (only 9 letter word)
    my ccret (to cease, to seek)
    my trove

    look, i’m just trying to start a non cryptic dialog. someone needs to solve the poem. and i am nowhere close. proximity nor honing in on how to solve…

    • “you will ignore THE poem at your own peril”
      “THE thrill of THE chase”
      “THE complexity of THE search”

      “All of my stories…”
      “olive” (jars)

      so many possibilities.
      i have hundreds of poems with notes… and drawings… someone has got to solve… someone has taken one of their simply brilliant simple idea and kept going… ?? has been within 200 ft. i hope it’s an underdog.

  55. or, of course, where i finally am, begin it “where” (warm waters halt)
    “and” take … sooooo many ways to read, understand… anyone want a crack? for more ideas?

    “the poem… part 6”

    • If you don’t relax, y’all may stress-out too much to enjoy, in good health, the end of the hunt. But while y’all are in (hopefully) good enough health, I want to thank y’all for
      the opportunity. It has, at times, been fun and interesting.

      The above is my opinion. Y’all’s probably diFFers.

  56. Just like: There’ll be no paddle up your creek, reminds me you’re up craps creek without a paddle.
    Water high reminds me of another idiom “come hell or high water”. If i’m reading this correctly (which I will never find out) I would say you don’t have to cross water to get to the treasure because of the reversal of the words.

  57. Just like: There’ll be no paddle up your creek, reminds me you’re up craps creek without a paddle.
    Water high reminds me of another idiom “come hel* or high water”. If i’m reading this correctly (which I may never find out) I would say you don’t have to cross water to get to the treasure because of the reversal of the words.
    It appears Forrest likes to make up his own idioms and date back to late 1800’s and early 1900’s.

    Tarry and scant seem to be words not used that much today…
    Sorry for using the Hel* word, I didn’t know it was not allowed.

  58. I’ve created a couple videos on Youtube that explain a theory I have been working on for almost a year.

    In them I discuss how the poem might be the table of contents for “The Thrill of the Chase” book. I give a detailed example, and also why I think it works.

    Is it required to solve the poem? Nope! The poem does not require the book unless you want the OPTIONAL hints in the book. Well I show you how that is working out for me. I am way beyond the point I describe, but I hope this helps someone else, or at least spurs your imagination.

    Regards…
    https://youtu.be/vibV1Mqtd4g – Part 1
    https://youtu.be/aNm7mUKDUHM – Part 2
    https://youtu.be/91-_z_nyJ0c – Part 3

    • BTW, I might do a followup to answer some questions I received. Meanwhile please keep in mind that this is not intended to be a solve, it is strictly to help jump start you (pun intended).

    • WyMustIGo,

      I haven’t had enough time to go through all your videos yet but your tone & candor are spot on!

      You are providing something valuable to the search community.

      As Seanm is to the “poem purist”; so are you to the TTOTC & hints — providing clarity…

      Totally cool!

      “Voices crying in the wilderness”

      GCG

  59. Hi guys,

    Last year I started getting serious about the chase. I went back to basics of just the poem AND TTOTC book because unlike some folks, I do want to use the hints and also work on ways to locate them. In order to do this, one thing I began doing was sentence diagramming of the poem. I completed the entire poem, but to test the waters I am only releasing the first stanza until I see if people are actually interested in this.

    Remember, the poem IS a map. Forrest felt like an architect making this poem! Well a diagram of the poem IS a visual thing, it also reveals the BLUEPRINT Forrest created. Together this helps us REALLY inderstand each and every word in the poem, including the word type which is important since many words can be multiple types (noun, verb, adjective, etc). The proper way to determine the word type is based on the context in which Forrest used it.

    I have created a video that explains this and shows the first stanza. Please check it out, if you like it pass it around and subscribe. If I get enough interest, I will do the entire poem.

    My Poem Diagram video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vuimotZLEo8

    Enjoy,

    WyMustIGo / Troy

    • WhyMustIGo,

      I fully agree with you.

      I did exactly what you said in the video. I “had” to do it. I do not speak English.

      This is how I mentalized the various forms of the poem. And I created in my head several ideas where I could apply what the poem says.

      I spent several weeks studying the poem.

      Then I studied FF and “all” its history.

      When I went to a map, finding a place went very fast and simple.

      I spent some ideas on the blog.

      Continue your analysis, you will find interesting things, which most English speakers do not know, precisely because they think they already know “everything” and do not search.

      Congratulations on the initiative, but prepare for criticism and skepticism.

      • Yeah, I know… I already told Forrest that I bet there are sceptics 🙂

        Its all good though, maybe my diagram is wrong (I don’t think so). If it is, and someone proves it with a solid reason, I will update it. I just figured its time to do this out there.

        Forrest said show it to a kid, maybe that is because children have this stuff fresh in their mind? 😉

        I think you did the right thing, lets face it, there is no way this would create more problems. I mean even if we don’t do it exactly right, it forces us to analyze the poem and this entire chase is about the poem. How can it hurt to understand it?

        Forrest may hate grammar, but he can do that, he wrote the poem. As a reader, it is extremely important to interpret it exactly as FF wrote it. I can’t even see a single logical reason to debate that.

        We can debate solutions for clues all day long, but there is only one way to read the poem, and that way is as he wrote it. If he did make grammar mistakes, maybe that means we should investigate his reasoning.

        Don’t let FF kid you, he knows what the rules are, he even stresses that we “look up things”, remember his “several” example?

  60. In honor of all our veterans on this memorial day, I want to tell those who might be interested of an important “coincidence” IMO.

    Recently Mr.f told about a story about working cattle in 103 degrees. Now someone, I forgot who, mentioned Farwell, Tx. was at 103 degrees latitude. Now draw a line from Farwell, Tx through the Vietnam Memorial near Angel fire and keep going. I find it very interesting that the vector falls between Cerro, NM and Questa, NM. Of course, most everyone knows the hunt is a Quest, and a few people know that zero in espanol is Cero.

    I think Fenn has always said to begin it at the beginning. Zero is always the beginning of any trip . (Psssst…There’s a national monument there too…)

    All the above is shared ( in spite of my selfish self) to honor of ALL those have served and died, so my family and I can live free. IMO

    If you are a veteran, Thank you.

    Best regards to all

  61. Hi Guys,

    Well I did a video that people were waiting for, I diagrammed the second stanza in the poem. This one may be controversial, but please listen closely to the video before replying, I address almost every issue I can think of.

    I am willing to bet that this video in particular will open some eyes as to how the poem needs to be interpreted.

    Check it out here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ndY34xTfh-o

    Let me know what you think, I will keep an eye here for comments too!

    Hope ya had a great weekend!

    Troy

    • Troy,
      I like the idea of your process… but you left out ‘tense’ right at the beginning. “Begin” and “where”, can carry over from stanza 1 as past tense. You don’t seem to have ‘time’ involved with how wording and usages of the words, can possibly work.

      For example; IF “begin” relate to ‘once upon a while’ line of thinking… the waters then ‘took’ the canyon down.. creating the canyon in past tense, only present tense in that time period… the waters ‘take it in’ describes making the canyon, ‘create’ the canyon down at a place in time.
      You use the idea; ‘you’ do the movement or not, or ‘you’ {us} is what fenn is relaying. That is an assumption that only works for present tense… a single time period, our time right now.
      What about 1000, 5000, even 10,000 years down the road? I dare say the place will change a bit. So, are we to know of ‘time’ past, and how it relates to imagination and observation?

      This idea give NFBTFTW two meanings… No far for us to travel [relatively close], and too far to walk, back in time a hint/clue of how to read the poem correctly?.
      However, this line of thinking is only usable for the idea of WWWH, and the reason behind using it as the first clue… a past tense of geography, line of thinking.

      You may ask why would fenn us a clue from a past environment?
      Because he was also think about “down the road” generations, not just this generation.

      So, just for curiosity, using time and the above theory… where would your hoB be now?
      If it all put’s in below, the location of where the canyon was created… hoB would be above the now said canyon, right?

      Only a different perspective. But if we don’t think like fenn says he was thinking ” down the road ” we may not see it the way he wanted this to unfold… over a time span… imo.

      • Thanks for the reply, Seeker.

        I agree that I should discuss tense. I was not trying to influence where the HOB is, I leave that up to the reader because they need to analyze the poem (including context and tense as you indicated).

        I also try to avoid anything that might appear to bias it into any of my solves, thats why I don’t discuss a solve (except for my failure at the sarcophagus last year).

        Having said that, what do I think?

        I think that we have
        WWWH (starting point)
        CANYON (downstream, lower elevaton)
        The distance from WWWH to the CANYON is “not far, but too far to walk”. But, we are not going where the water does, I believe we just put in below the HOB.

        I believe the HOB is above the canyon and our quest begins up there.

        Stanza 3 says “from there…”.. I believe this is telling us where to go from the HOB. There = HOB

        So I think I agree that we are not supposed to do what the waters are doing (halt and take), we put in at HOB and “from there…”

        As I said though, I am trying not to get into this stuff in the video because it detracts from simply trying to determine the structure of the poem so that we can look up defintions. I am assuming that the viewer will consider all the verbs, adverbs, and the tense being used because without knowing that, one cannot hope to get the correct definition.

        My intentions after all the poem is diagrammed is to discuss things such as what you are talking about. How we need to consider the context and how each stanza might interact with others. Heck we can also discuss why he breaks the rhythm pattern on lines 2,3, and 7.

        I believe all the clues are geographic references, none are structures. Yes, they will change in 1000 years, but Forrest also said that as time goes on it will become more and more difficult. But since I am not discussing a solution, I don’t want to discuss that in a video based only on diagramming.

        Slowly I will work in the subjective stuff after the easier parts of diagramming, tense, and relationships from phrase to phrase.

        I have not seen anyone really try to go into depth on the poem, people keep this stuff close to the hip. I am trying to change that 🙂

        • Have you thought about if someone starts to tell you a children’s story and after a bit you recognize the story? But you didn’t need to to go deep and diagram the words for structure to remember it.

          • You’re right, no, you don’t. But I like to visualize it, makes things stick out more. It also comes in handy later when comparing stanzas and going through synonyms 🙂

        • Here’s what I’m hearing in your explanation. It’s not your version, but you made me think, that is why I responded.

          As you say, no need to go into a canyon line of thinking… HoB is located [ lets say along the rim ] We need to know where along the rim that is, right?
          So I read into this as; “from there” to be the last spot we are at… which would still be WWWH… we have not moved yet, we only know that it’s [hoB] is not far, but too far to walk to where ‘we’ ~ put in [ I’m going with dry land on that one ].

          So in this scenario… we need to figure out what NPFTM is and where that is. The most obvious answer is the “end” of the canyon where the waters drain to. The canyon’s bottom may refer to NPFTM, so we don’t go in the canyon. Why would this be to far to walk [ to the end ]? shape of the canyon rim is most likely the reason… Not far as the Crow flies, but too far to walk the rim in comparison. Simply saying stay out of the canyon, idea.
          At the end is hoB where we go below.

          I believe we are reading each step pf the poem as “steps” we must travel. I only see two points from WWH we may need to go, the third should be the blaze location.

          You seem to be saying almost the same as I, yet I’m slightly different in how the order of “movement” is to the order of “instructions” unfold.
          1 be at WWWH
          2 understand the canyon is not where to go, but we go to the end, nevertheless.
          3. locate hoB there. which should be indicated by something that refers to HLnWH or connected in some way. This should be where the blaze is located… In this theory of my thoughts from your theory in the video.

          “From there” starts with where we started, at WWWH. From there then becomes hoB from where we put in. everything in-between is descriptions of what is seen from wwwh to hoB.[ and HLnWH, being the same place]

          Make sense?

          • Yes, it makes sense.

            The only difference is I see the steps after HOB.

            I think that the first sentence in stanza 2 has at least 2 clues, maybe 3. One defines the WWWH, the other a canyon that is a distance we cannot walk to.

            When it comes to counting the clues, I have to say I don’t worry about that. I just work through the poem and try to solve the variables that we don’t know.

            What I am lacking is precision at the end. When he says precisely, I feel we should end up within feet.

            But generally yes, I agree.

          • Wyoming, and my search partner lives there so we’re always BOTG. Not in Yellowstone Park though, not in Kirwin either (but Kirwin is popular).

            I’ve personally been BOTG four times, but I can’t afford to be travelling there from FL often.

          • WyMustIGo,

            I sent it yesterday.

            Today came a message saying it could not be delivered.

            So, I sent today again.

          • WyMustIGo,

            I sent it a second time and came back with the message again:

            The email can not be delivered.

          • I still did not get anything. Note: If it has any attachments that are executables, my ISP will block it. If it has any attachments like video or pictures, it might bee too large. I think the total size of the email cannot be larger than 5 megabytes.

          • The only thing I can think of is that my ISP is freaking about about the “.com.br” and thinking the sender is spoofing. It’s weird because it lets me email you.

            You can try going to my Youtube channel and sending it as a message there.

          • WY;

            I sometimes have trouble receiving emails on aol.
            Don’t know who your server is. – Anyway, If you can sent McB an email, have him “Reply” rather than sending a separate email – this sometimes works with aol. Look in your “spam” foulder also – Just suggestions that have worked for me – JDA

          • JDA,

            When you replied to my emails it came back as, @aim.com, instead of aol.com. When I replied to you I sent it @aim.com and it worked fine.

            Just thought this might help.

          • Glad you guys figured out a solution.

            CharlieM Aim and AOL are one and the same – kinda. Aim is free without some of the fluff – AOL you pay for get more fluff – BUT If you had an AOL account before aim was created, you kept you AOL address – Confusing but I get mail addressed to either aim or AOL – JDA

  62. WyMustIGo…great job breaking things down…and the ideas seem coherent. This reminds me of a lot of the many discussions over the years…just not the visual you provided.
    The only thing I would mention is that I believe Fenn chose *a poem* for good reason. Poems have different rules and most are ambiguous and open to different types of readers/readings. I will note that there are ample poetry terms such as foot, meter, syllables, stressed syllables, scansion and many more that help aid a reader determine what *may* be going on in a poem. Things like what type of poem Ballad, Lyric etc. Stanza structure may be important and to be sure, the content and meter give poems their form. One line of a poem may be a stand alone idea/thought regardless of the following lines and assumed sentence structure. Sometimes thoughts are not finished on one line and may follow through multiple lines…even skipping lines. Often times breaking poetry into sentences obscures the importance of a single line.
    I think what you have done is perhaps a good exercise…then again…because we’ve been given an ambiguous *poem*…this may be risky stuff. Thanks for sharing it and I do not feel it was wasted time.

    • If you are interested… a poet that I think most folks are familiar with said…”Poetry provides the one permissible way of saying one thing and meaning another.” Robert Frost—– I think his epitaph is something like…* I had a love hate relationship with the world.*
      Another good one from a more controversial poet…” Poetry is doing nothing but using losing refusing and pleasing and betraying and caressing nouns.”
      Gertrude Stein

      • Thanks Ken.

        Check out the update I made today to the second stanza video to point out something a subscriber noticed. He brings up a good point that further backs up the theory.

        I’ve been saying that “halt and take” apply only to the waters for a long time now on Dals and Jenny’s. This time I put it in a video. The diagrams may not be exactly right, but the logic is. Anyway,… check it out.

        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ocYkql0tB9M

      • I wanted to add that if we don’t know the rules, we can’t expect to know where, when, or why Forrest might have bent them.

        • What you’re not taking into account is the “IT” The poem says begin “IT” wwwh and take “IT” in the canyon down. You can’t leave that out.

          The grammatical part of you video is correct and understandable

  63. I have thought since my first reading of TTOTC, that “I” in the poem is water. This is based upon the story of Looking for Lewis & Clark. FF and Donnie were lost in the wilderness. They decided to follow a stream, which got narrower and narrower and the sides got taller and taller until nothing could get through but water.

    So, I decided that the place where only water could go is a cloud. That fits in my mind because of the story of River Bathing Is Best. Water in a cloud moves “upstream” because warm air rises. But, when the moist droplets of water get heavy, they drop down in the form of precipitation and become cooler as they fall. So for a long time, I have been working on a solution that involves a place with a cloud name. “Heavy loads and water high” could describe a cloud.

    Another place that nothing can get through but water is rock! I believe this poem is sending us to a place where we will find a natural Forest Fen adjacent to a rock formation. The formation would have to be an unconformity, in which older rock sits atop younger rock.

    Finally I think I understand the first line of the poem.

    “As I have gone alone in there”. As I said, I have been looking for a place only water can go, but now I think there is a bit more to it. FF has told us that the poem written in plain English, but he has often hinted that we should know all of the definitions of the words we use. We assume he is saying one thing when in fact he is saying something else because he has applied a true, but alternate meaning of the word as it is used in the sentence.

    IMO
    “As I have gone alone in there” = As (meaning during which time) I (water) have gone (water is no longer in this place) in there

    “And with my treasures bold” The action of water in the creation of rock formations can leave an area “bowled” like a basin as well as creating bolders) These actions leave behind/expose natural resources such as minerals. They also leave behind fossil remains which are earths treasures and natural resources.

    “I can keep my secrets where” I can (am able) keep (hold onto my secrets), where (wear away) Basically the secrets of the history of the RM are hinted at as rock layers wear away exposing the underlying rock.

    “And hint of riches old and new” A hint is to tell or show part of something but not the entire thing. This line can be saying “I” (water) can keep (leave in safe place inside rock) my secrets (something partially hidden/fossils, gems, minerals, etc) old and new (Rocky Mtns are actually the second set of mountains that has been raised up in that area, worn away and then raised up again. Todays current RM are relatively “new” compared to the more ancient RM (old). Evidences of both are left behind in the rock record that tells the story of the RM)

    Begin it where warm waters halt= IMO location name having to do with a cloud as well as rock formation where ancient rock (Craton) is exposed and layed atop younger rock. The water “halts” at this type of rock because it is non-permeable.

    “And take it in the canyon down” I believe we are not going a great distance. Somewhere I”ve seen a quote from FF saying that he put one foot down and then the other foot on top of it and so on until he got to the end of the clues. Hmmm. I know that everyone is picturing him pacing off the area. But, what if he is talking about rock layers instead of walking distance. What if he is saying one rock layer is deposited on top of another. Rock layer upon layer could be described as “too far to walk” In other words, you can walk along and view the rock layers but you can’t walk through history to be in all of those times and places. You can only look at the evidence left behind in the rock story of the RM

    I’ve believed from the beginning that the “blaze” is in the rock layers. I even think I know which rock layer it is.

    Remember the quote in which FF said that sooner or later we all become the remnants of history or an asterisk in a book that was never written. Well, the book that tells the story of the RM is the rock layers that are exposed there. That kind of a blaze cannot easily be destroyed or hidden.

    All this is IMO. Prevoius to now I didn’t feel that I understood the first stanza, but I think I do now and it fits with what I believe the rest of the poem says.

    Am I the only one that thinks we need to look at rock layers?

  64. I’ve been looking at geology for awhile, too. So many words in TTOTC are geology words with differing meanings than the ones we typically use. Like window, for example.

  65. Stanza 4 video is out now : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xp5sEBdseR8

    This stanza was the most complicated, stanza 2 was in second place for that title 🙂

    Even though stanza 4 was the most complicated to diagram, I think stanza 2 is the one that will point out the biggest mistake searchers have, especially the ones who walked right past the final 7 clues because they did not follow what the poem says.

    Note: If you have not seen the other stanzas, I have a playlist that only contains the poem diagramming. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vuimotZLEo8&list=PL-eTxYDW8ur84Q4Gy_l17E2OwOMJls9SA

    I put a lot of work into this diagramming over the past year, some of the research included speaking with a few professor friends of mine back in Princeton, NJ at the university. It may not be perfect, but it was no easy task. If you enjoy this stuff, please subscribe to my channel so that you will see when the other videos are released (I have 22 videos related to the chase, one of them was a live show).

    I really hope this stuff helps others. We rarely see the poem discussed in depth like that, and I believe it is required to know what is going on. The poem is the most important thing we have, TTOTC is second. We MUST read the poem exactly as Forrest intended, we cannot ignore even a single word or punctuation mark, doing so can change the entire meaning of a phrase and potentially cost you a million dollar opportunity.

    • WhymustIgo,
      I diagramed this poem when I first began to study it. I think it makes sense to understand how the words connect. The problem with this, is that words can be used as various parts of speech. One word can be a noun, verb, adjective, or something else depending upon how it is used in the sentence. I believe that the reason this poem has not been solved is because we “think” we know which words are subject, action, description, etc. Even those who can’t diagram a sentence, have a pretty good idea when they look at a simple sentence, what it is saying.

      I think the problem here is that the words being used are simple which tricks our brain into thinking that the sentence is simple. I think that is the error we make. Its like riding the “back-wards bicycle”. Once you have ridden a bicycle, its been said you never forget. People even say “its as easy as riding a bike” Contrast that to the back-wards bicycle. If its backwards, then our brain recognizes the bicycle. It tells us we know how to ride it, and so we get on and try. But, if the bicycle is backwards, it goes against what our brain tells us we already know.

      FF has said that we don’t always understand the meanings of our words. I think he is referring to the fact that if our brain learned a simple word, our brain will repeatedly tell us to recognize that word for the part of speech we learned it as. Like a backwards bicycle, our brain is tricked into thinking it knows what to do, when in fact, the task is not so simple.

      FF uses a particlar type of phrase that I don’t know the name of. I see it repeatedly in his writing and somewhere someone once stated what it was and I found it interesting. Let me give a couple of examples. p13 “Admittedly the places in JD’s book were different from mine and the names were different and the time was different from mine, and the schools I never heard about where obviously different, but other than that, it was my very own story line. Now look at the next line following that statement. “He even had a siter like mine, the guy in the story I mean, not JD”. Maybe someone can help me out here and tell us what type of phrase this is. FF is going along telling us about JD’s book and how it was so much like his own story. Our brains are following along understanding what he is saying about JD. But, then he says, “He even had a sister like mine, the guy in the story I mean, not JD”. What? How did this happen? How did we go about hearing about JD to referring back to the guy in the story?

      I believe this statement tell us much more than most people are able to recognize. I believe FF uses this type of phrase in his poem and it can get us into some trouble. If he can jump back to talking about the guy in the story after going on and on about JD, then without the words clarifying who he is talking about “the guy in the story I mean, not JD” we have no idea who has the sister. We assume it is JD, but it is not. It is another trick of the mind. I believe FF uses these types of phrases in the poem. They trick our brains into thinking he is saying one thing when in fact he is saying something else. Only he doesn’t add the words, “I mean” to tell us who or what he means. The rules are broken and our brain can’t figure it out even though the words are basic simple English language.

      There is a pretty good hint about FF writing on p 14, I believe. He refers to the line in the story Kismet that a kid in his class gave him to read. The line says, “To the Caliph I am dirt, but to the dirt I am a Caliph”. I think this is a strong hint that our minds are being tricked by words. Our minds see a simple word and we think we can identify it, or its part of speech or the complete sentence. But, we’ve been tricked into thinking FF is talking about one thing when in fact he is talking about something else. If we think he is a Caliph, then everything we hear him say is interpreted from the point of view or perception of a Caliph. But, if the same words are used and we think FF is a Caliph when in fact he actually is dirt, then we are going to be confused about what he is talking about.

      “Imagination is more important than Knowlege”

      Why is knowledge spelled wrong? To bring attention to it. To help us focus on the difference between Imagination and Knowledge. I think FF wants us to think we know what he is saying. “The answers I already know” are not the answers WE as readers already know. FF knows the answers and in order to get his knowledge we must learn as we search for the TC.

      Since FF basically has said that no special knowledge is needed other than the fact that geography might help, then I think its pretty safe to say that we don’t need a bunch of other information outside the realm of geography or meanings of words to understand what is going on in this poem. Perhaps the rules our brains already know are only going to trick us. We have to learn what all of the meanings of all of the words used in the poem are saying or else there is just no way to know which meaning is being applied and then we are tricked and we diagram the sentence incorrectly. We think we know the meaning of a simple word when in fact it is not the simple meaning FF is using. Its more complex.

      He said TTOTC p 14, “if I had to look up a word I just wouldn’t use it”. Well, technically that isn’t true because he has said in interviews that he looked up the meanings of words and changed them over and rebooted until he was satisfied. So we know he did look up the words. Why would he say he didn’t? I think it is to draw attention to the fact that there may be words used in the poem in unexpected ways. He may have used very simple words to describe something that is very complex.

      So now we are back to the bicycle. We get onto the back-wards bicycle and our brain thinks it knows how to deal with the bicycle. But, it doesn’t. Our brain wants to ride it the simple way we learned to ride as a child but the bicycle doesn’t cooperate. It has its own rules. Our brains must re-think it.

      So, I think that diagraming the sentences is useful to a degree. But, what if we are using the most commonly used definitions of words that are simple, but FF is using the more complex definition of words? Then our minds are tricked. We think the task is easy. We know a noun or a verb when we see it don’t we? No. I don’t think we do. I think our brains think we do and that is where we are tricked and that is why this poem has not been solved.

      I want to go back to that unusual type of clause phrase that FF uses. I see it over and over in his writing. Can someone tell me what this is called? TTOTC p 26. “Fortunately, I was the only one in the class who knew that trick, the sliding I mean. . .”

      While I’m looking at this paragraph, it really connects with the next thought I was going to discuss and brings me back to the idea of diagraming sentences. The first thing we have just been taught in the diagraming of sentences is that we must identify the verb and the noun. Sounds simple enough doesn’t it? But, what if the simple words are breaking the rules? They don’t work like a front-ways bicycle. They work like a back-wards bicycle. What if the word we are sure we recognize as a verb is actually not a verb. What if a different definition is being used and this word in this sentence is being used as a completely different part of speech. That is where we are dealing with the back-wards bicycle. Our brains can’t process it. Our brains tell us we know what this sentence means when in reality we have no idea whatsover. How do we resolve this? How can we diagram the sentence if the parts of speech are not what we thought they were. What if we think this word is clearly a type of speech that it is not. It isn’t a Caliph. Instead it is dirt. Only its more complex than that because Caliph and dirt are both nouns, but maybe this word is acting as a verb or an adjective. If FF had to look up the meanings of words and turn them over and reboot, then we should do that also. He has said that we just don’t understand the meanings of words. Clearly we don’t or we would understand what he is saying in the poem. I think some of us are beginning to.

      On top of the meanings of words getting us confused like a back-wards bicycle, now we also have to deal with the word “I”. Remember that if we think “I” is a Caliph then we will understand the sentence one way. But, if we think “I” is dirt, then we will interpret it a different way.

      We also have to deal with the tense of the words used. “As I have gone” Have gone is past tense. So is “if you’ve been wise” How do we deal with going back and forth between present tense of some words and past tense of others?

      So basically, we cannot diagram the sentences until we understand all of the possible meanings of words. If our brain says a word is a verb, we are going to process it like a verb when maybe it isn’t.

      So before we can really hope to understand this poem, we must understand geography and we must be absolutely certain that we understand each and every word used in the poem.

      IMO

      • I already understand the poem, I did this last winter and been working on the chase since 2014.

        The primary reason for doing it is to assume, as a base, that the poem is grammatically correct (it is). If I found any errors, then I would not try to correct it, but find out why he bent the rules.

        Without making a serious attempt to understand the poem, it simply is not possible to come up with any valuable meanings.

        In addition to that, people are incorrectly going down the canyon because they are not reading the poem correctly, as Forrest wrote it. For example, “halt and take” are what the “waters” do, and yet searchers are doing it (no wonder why people walked past 7 clues).

        As you indicate the word definitions can be subjective, but the punctuation is not subjective, neither is the context, which again was the reason for diagramming it.

        Rememeber: The diagram is the starting point, not the end.

        • To understand why people went past 7 clues you have to know where they started from. I also do not think a person can understand the poem without putting boots on the ground. But then what do I know, I’m still figuring out the family mystery.

      • Also, expecting people to read English properly is not special knowledge. Children know these basic grammar rules more than you and I as adults who spent decades misusing words.

        Perhaps that is why FF once said to show it to a kid.

        • Wy,

          Is this why I understood the poem so quickly (3 months only)?

          I had to translate and study every word in the poem. Grammar of the language.

          This correct reading (trap) of looking down, I have long ago.

          NF, BTFTW is the distance that water runs inside the canyon, it was the first trap I encountered.

          I remember hearing FF say that it puts dots, commas, or semicolons where “he” thinks the reader should stop or pause. (I do not remember “where” I heard this)

          • Yep, the poem is where we start and the most important thing. Fortunately for us, there is very little competition. I’m trying to change that, but I laugh at some of the responses too. Hehe

          • There are things so obvious in the poem, and others so confusing.

            From what I understood from FF’s speech, the poem should take the researcher “directly” to the chest.

            But I find nothing that gives the necessary precision.

            From a certain point on, it seems we stayed in a dark room.

      • 17 children are dead in Miami. 10 more in Texas. Some frigging idiot can snoop in my home, and come up with some hair brained opinion. What has he accomplished? Diddly squat!

      • That seems like a pretty tedious, repetitious way of saying “use a dictionary thoroughly”. In my opinion.

        • How do you use a dictionary without knowing what the word types are and the context they are used in? Seems better than guessing or using an opinion to me.

          Case in point: Stanza two does not tell you to follow the water down the canyon.

      • Flutterby: I’m not aware of a specific name for the grammatical construction that Forrest occasionally employs (e.g. “Fortunately, I was the only one in the class who knew that trick, the sliding I mean. . .”) A writer would probably just call it flawed grammatical construction — unless it was being used to humorous effect, which appears to be the case in many of Forrest’s examples. If I was to give it a label, I would call it an example of ambiguous antecedent. I found a funny example online: “Edna refuses to meet with the accountants at their offices because she says they smell funny.” Sounds like something Forrest would say. 😉

  66. New idea for HOB!

    Lewis and Clark State Park in Montana has a cavern. This cavern is south of Glacier National Park. Within this cavern is a famous rock formation known as Brown Waterfall. This makes perfect sense… A cave is a home for Brown Waterfall! Hopefully someone else can put it the info to good use. I am going to be working on it, but I will post anything else I find.

  67. McB said “From what I understood from FF’s speech, the poem should take the researcher “directly” to the chest.”

    The right version should take them. The problem is that we all have to figure out all of the wrong versions first.

  68. I finished the sixth stanza video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J9CnGDQnlBc

    Note: If you have not seen the other stanzas, I have a playlist that only contains the poem diagramming. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vuimotZLEo8&list=PL-eTxYDW8ur84Q4Gy_l17E2OwOMJls9SA

    This project took a ton of work, most was done back since July of last year. I really hope it helps, especially with stanza 2 and 4. Stanza 2, by far, had the most effort on it. I also showed it to experts over the year (Professors from Princeton Unv.). The subject of that stanza is likely IT, but I have zero doubt that it is the waters that “halt and take”. I’ve been saying that for maybe 3 years now, but this past year I took the time to verify it as best as I could.

    The first sentence in that stanza does not tell us to go anywhere, it simply gives us a starting location to put in below the home of Brown. If the home of Brown is not down the canyon, you should not follow the waters down there. All in my opinion of course, but this time I used experts to qualify it. Some will not agree, and that is fine, but I will tell you that by doing so you are messing with the poem and not reading it as Forrest wrote it. There is no comma before “and” in the first sentence in stanza 2, so don’t interpret it as if there is one. The waters halt… the waters take IT… that is how it reads without making any attempts to correct or change the grammar Forrest used.

    Enjoy

      • Sure, IT is supposed to be something, it is a pronoun. But “halt and take” does not apply to IT, they apply to the waters. That is not even up for debate, unless we are going to ignore how Forrest wrote the poem.

        IF only “halt” applied to “waters”, and “Take” applied to the reader, there would be a comma before “and”. It would say “halt, and take”, but it isn’t written that way. So anyone who interprets it that way, is flat out wrong, and they are altering the poem. This isn’t my opinion, it is a fact, and it is based on how Forrest wrote the poem and how Forrest chose to use punctuation.

        It baffles me that people insist on ignoring how Forrest wrote the poem, and instead they twist it to fit their solution. That explains why searchers have “walked right past the other 7 clues”, they were busy going down canyons and ignoring the poem.

        I am making an attempt, actually I have been for years now to correct this, but if people want to ignore what is right in front of their face, it will be to their detriment, not ours 🙂

        • Wy;

          My wife was an English teacher, and I learned long, long ago not to argue English with an English teacher BUT, in my interpretation, “halt” does apply to “waters” and “Take” does apply to the reader – So I guess that it will be to my detriment, until I carry Indulgence home with me.

          Forrest has said that he punctuated the poem to his liking, not to the liking of an English teacher – paraphrasing – NOT a quote.

          It may well be a FACT, but being a FACT does NOT guarantee that it is correct in Forrest’s mind – Just sayin’ – JDA

          P.S. Yes, I know that I just committed a blasphomy in the eyes of English teachers everywhere – Sorry ’bout that!

          • Well the English Lit professors I spoke with would both disagree with your wife.

            “halt and take” are both describing what the waters do. There is no mistake about it JDA. There is no other way to properly interpret it without messing with the poem and adding a comma. Why are you messing with the poem and reading it as if a comma is there? I don’t understand, it defies logic.

            Of course Forrest punctuated it the way he wanted to, that is not the question here. I am not the one changing it, you are by reading it as if one is there. As readers, we are required to read it the way he wrote it. And yet… People are inserting commas where Forrest did not put them.

            I can’t even believe why this is debated, we MUST read it like Forrest wrote it, not the way we think it should be.

            As written, it works exactly as I just said. Do not insert punctuation in his poem where he did not put it. If he did have a comma there, the sentence would completely change.

          • Wy: “I can’t even believe why this is debated, we MUST read it like Forrest wrote it, not the way we think it should be.”

            It’s clear that you think the lack of a comma at the end of line 5 is a significant clue to the proper reading of that stanza. But the fact is that whether there is a comma there or not, Forrest himself pauses between “halt” and “And” when he recites his poem — just as one would if there *was* a comma there. So I think you are reading too much into its absence.

          • You misunderstood. My wife does agree with you, and not me. I did NOT state that she agrees with me – All I said was that I learned not to argue English with her.

            The wonder of the chase is that we can each choose to read the poem as we see it – English be darned!

            This quest is not a test of how well we understand the English language. If it were, the redneck with a pick-up and 12 kids probably would not stand a chance – but according to Forrest he does.

            Hope you are enjoying your pursuit. Hope that it bring you pleasure – I doubt that it will bring you the chest – but I don’t know nuttin’ – JDA

          • Wy,

            This is how the majority here reads stanza 2:

            Begin it where warm waters halt,
            And take it in the canyon down.

            Not far, but too far to walk,
            Put in below the home of Brown.

            Why do you think everyone goes straight through the 7 clues and through the chest?

            Like you, I am one of the few who advocates the literal and grammatical reading of the poem.

            The only thing that ties everyone here is the variety of WWWHs considered.

            Each one has the correct WWWH, but no one can bring the chest.

            But this is good! We have less competition!

          • Exactly, McB. They are adding commas and changing the poem. LOL

            There is a BIG difference between:

            The Poem: “Begin it where warm waters halt and take it in…”
            and
            Not Poem: “Begin it where warm waters halt, and take it…”

            People are messing with the poem and using option 2, which is not how Forrest wrote the poem.

            How in the world can someone expect to solve the poem when they are changing it?

            I guess Forrest put in a hidden comma and the other commas, semicolon, and periods are just for looks.

            Cannibalism: “Lets go eat Sally!”
            Dinner Invitation: “Lets go eat, Sally!”

            Nah, commas are just meaningless 😀 hehe… It is crazy that people overlook the obvious stuff that even a child would notice.

            I think maybe we are wrong, Forrest just slapped a bunch of words in there without caring if they are being used as nouns, verbs, etc. Then, to look cool, he slapped around some commas and periods, and to be especially rebellious, he slapped in a semicolon. None of it has any meaning, in fact maybe we should add more commas like everyone else, they look cute with the curves 😀

          • WYMustIGo,

            Exactly… The “and” combines something. But how, what, are they combined is the question. Using the fact that there is no comma, the “and” must bring something together, but what?

            In reading and understanding the sentence, could it be interpret as; Begin it at a place “and take it in.” leaving canyon down nothing more than a direction than an action.
            The places might not be the important factor [yet] as the meanings of “begin it” ~ “and take it in”

            When adding the first place [WWH, a place to be at] we still need to know what ‘take it in’ means or refers to as; what to do… the canyon down doesn’t really say what to do IF we don’t know what “take it in” actually means / intended to mean.

            So is it more important to understand And vs. And take it in.. prior to a place down?

            The thing is, a poem doesn’t need to rely on proper ruling… some poems don’t have commas or even period or any punctuation at all.
            fenn seemingly wanted this sentence as a whole… is that reason because we need to stay at the beginning of it. That the two [ possible clues] are so closely related that without one the message is lost. { the message being look, view, observe } and something we need to decipher correctly.

            Now this is where an AFT comment might be helpful.

            “…And I can tell you an 80-year-old man is not going to make a trip into a canyon, then come up and go down again…”

            So again, what is the “and” actually relaying and to what? An action of movement down or an action to viewing or observation point [take it in]

            I mean, if fenn doesn’t go down and back up and down again [ two trips he would have had to make by ‘following’ the clues when he hid the chest ~ a few more ATF] why would we?

            This ATF reminds me of fenn’s comment; “I’m not ready to say the chest is not in water…” only to later say it is “not underwater.”
            Did the same thing happen here when fenn made this up, down a canyon comment?

            Or the comment about not having to do with; “…It is not necessary to move large rocks **or climb up or down a steep precipice,…” **

            I know my thoughts of how the ATF may help with understanding what is amidst on; how we read/think/analyze/proceed with the poem… and… it may kill a lot of theories on folk’s solves. But it’s hard to argue with the guy who started / created it all and continues to make these ATF comments.

          • Seeker,

            I think “something” (IT) begins, probably a river which is created by multiple streams/confluences at its headwaters. These “waters” simply “halt and take” the river in the canyon down. I think the distance between where “IT” begins and the canyon down is too far to walk to. I believe the direction we go depends on where the HOB is, if the HOB is in the canyon, we drive to it, if the HOB is back at the starting place in the opposite direction of the canyon, we go to it.

            The waters clearly “halt and take”… What determines our direction to go depends on where the home of Brown is.

            Some think “IT” is the chase, I don’t. Does it make any sense that the “waters” would take “the chase”?

            The other possibility is both IF’s are not the same thing, but that still does not change the fact that “warm waters halt and take it”.

            Madison Junction is a popular WWWH location, and it works because the Firehole and Gibbon waters halt where the Madison River begins and the waters continue in the canyon downstream.

            The mistake is automatically heading west along the madison when the “home of Brown” could be, for example Yellowstone National Park. And below it’s southern border of could be the home of Brown, it is higher in elevation but below (or south), so it works.

            Yes, it is true that the HOB could be Hebgen Lake, in which case you do need to go down the canyon.

            The point is, the choice to go down the canyon should not be made based on the verbs halt and take, because halt and take do not apply to the IT (pronoun) that appears right after “Begin”.

            Even casual reading of “Begin the river where warm waters halt and take the river in the canyon down, not far…” makes sense.

            “Begin the chase where warm waters halt and take the chase in the canyon down, not far…” makes no sense UNLESS it was written like this: “Begin the chase where warm waters halt, and take the chase in the…” << Now it would make sense, BUT Forrest did not put the comma there, thus "warm waters halt and take it", not the reader.

            Now go with me for another second…

            Lets say IT is a river as I said above. Ok… Now imagine Begin is telling us "where" something begins… "Begin it where". The first sentence is describing the place where IT (it means – something previously mentioned or about to be explained). Again, think "Begin the Madison River where warm waters halt and take the Madison River in the canyon down, not far, but too far to walk." With me so far?
            In this case, "Put in" could be taking us to a location downstream along "the Madison River" *IF* the home of Brown is that way. But what if it isn't and that is why searchers are walking past 7 clues? Maybe they went down the madison when they should have headed out the south gate of YNP.

            So there we go, we incorrectly read the stanza and imagine some comma lives before "and" when it doesn't. Next thing you know we are farting around near Hebgen when we should be up near Thor 😀

            Could this be the "thing" or "key" that many people overlook? They imagine commas… they think IT = the chase… well…

        • So Wy, since commas are critical to YOUR reading of the poem, I guess that means that in stanza 6, Forrest is giving us wood: “If you are brave and in the wood I give you…” 😉

          You may not accept the veracity of the following quote, given its source, but I’m pretty confident it’s genuine:

          “I have always said the poem will lead you to the treasure if you have the right map and know where to start. It is straight forward so there is no need to over-think it or look for commas and misspellings as clues. It was not written with the idea of fooling anyone. F”

          • Zap,

            In the sentence:

            If you are brave and in the wood
            I give you title to the gold.

            It has a grammatical fault.

            You can have two readings only.

            In both readings a comma would be “indispensable.

            Would be:
            If you are brave, and in the wood
            I give you title to the gold.

            Or:
            If you are brave and in the wood,
            I give you title to the gold.

            In your opinion which of them seems the most coherent?

            Not to mention this “in the wood”.

            Already in the second stanza there is no grammatical error. The “two” sentences are coherent and practicable.

          • Zap – Ignore the punctuation then, that seems like the best way to read the poem! Heck, add your own, it doesn’t matter.

            Keep ignoring the poem and going down the canyon, please 🙂

        • I get what you’re saying. But ff only had enough room for 630 characters in the poem, being the architect that he is. It is a possibility.

          I’ll keep what you’ve said in mind.

          By the way, did you see my post on Mysterious Writings about Mang Yang Pass?

    • “Since I hid my treasure I can’t get by with any malfunctions in my writing. I received emails from two English teachers who criticized my use of commas and semi colons, and each one corrected me in a different way. So I just punctuate the way that looks right to me and hope that no one sends me marijuana cookies. But don’t you think I should get high marks for doing the best I can?” ff

      “I am frequently criticized for where I put commas. My reply is that I don’t want to use anybody’s book-writing rules. It is my prerogative as the writer to decide when I want the reader to pause, not the reader’s, and certainly not the critic’s.” ff

      Jake

        • Ken, JA’s comment makes zero sense. Of course FF said that… But when did he say for us to ignore the punctuation he used and to randomly insert our own punctuation as we see fit? hehe

          One thing for sure here, JA is not competition worth watching 🙂

          • Good – one less pair of eyes looking over my shoulder. What will you say WHEN I find Indulgence? “Well darn, it wasn’t supposed to happen like that – JA (and Forrest) broke the comma rule!” 🙂 – JDA

          • You mean manipulating the poem and inserting commas where they don’t exist 😉

      • So JA, why do people not pay attention to how he wrote it?

        Forrest did not put a comma before “and” with “halt and take”, so why do people go down the canyon when it doesn’t say so?

        Please show me where Forrest said “Ignore the punctuation in my poem, feel free to put ones in that don’t exist”.

        Some people just don’t get it.

        Forrest wrote the poem.
        We are reading the poem.

        If we ignore Forrest’s use of punctuation, then we are messing with his poem.

        People amaze me sometimes 🙂 Then, it makes me thingle when the amount of comeptition dwindles 😀

        • RE: WyMustIGo 6/7/18@3:39pm –
          I do not know all of the rules of punctuation, but your argument makes sense to me.
          So,would that mean warm waters do the following:
          -halt
          -take it in the canyon down, not far, but to far to walk . ?
          Would that also mean the above (poem lines 5,6,7 / sentence 2)
          simply describe where you begin, and that your first action or direction or location from there is “Put in below the home of Brown” ?
          If so, would you start at where warm waters enter a canyon, but maybe go upstream from there. As for the canyon, its remaining length would be both “not far” and “too far to walk”
          (this could mean that the rest of the canyon is very twisty).
          What directs which way to go (up or down canyon ) ?
          It sounds like you need to know about the home of brown either from a map or from BOTG evidence. HOB could be in any direction, and any distance (even zero) from where you begin.

  69. IMPORTANT:

    I made a correction to my Stanza 1 video. A viewer named Carly Perales pointed out a flaw where my diagram was incorrectly portrying “hint” as a noun. I knew it was a verb, but i messed up that diagram. I made the viewers comment pinned and added a corrected diagram.

    The correct diagram is here:
    https://i.gyazo.com/7e355bd9b6ba7e804fa88ec55765f885.png

    The video (did not change) is here:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IlHuA-OChYc

    I also updated the diagrams in my Facebook group:
    https://www.facebook.com/groups/NoPlaceForTheMeek/

  70. Forrest replies: “No, many people have found the first clue but they didn’t know it. Until someone finds the treasure they will not know for sure that they have discovered the first clue.” (https://dalneitzel.com/2016/07/30/the-nine-clues-part-sixty-seven/)

    Am I the only one who has noticed that FF says you will know you discovered the “first clue” when you find the treasure? He didn’t say you will have discovered “the clues”.

    This leaves me to wonder if its like the countdown to the top song on the radio each week when FF was young. The family would gather to listen and often FF would be able to guess the top song as they counted through the top ten each week starting at the bottom.

    It is my opinion that the people who find the first clue didn’t necessarily find it because they solved the clue itself. But, I think they may have happened upon it because they understood the poem to mean something different that just happened to take them to where the first clue is, not because they understood the first clue (but just couldn’t prove it)

  71. The problem with reading the poem for me is, that in school we memorized poems so that we could recite them. I enjoyed poetry and recitation to me was the very heart of it, not the way it was written.

    • James;

      I am not sure that Forrest “Insists” that we memorize the poem. To the best of my knowledge Forrest has used the word “memorize” only once, and here it is:

      ” I have some advice. Read the book and study the poem over and over – read it over and over – MAYBE even memorize it; …” To me, Forrest is not “Insisting” that we memorize the poem – he just suggests that MAYBE even memorize it.

      YES, Forrest has said over and over to read the poem over and over, and I think that there is an important reason for this – but that is JMO – JDA

    • James…perhaps not insist. Old school technique and method of study was absolutely by rote. The three R’s as it were…and yes…the primary school of thought was memorization. Fenn has on several occasions pulled pieces of poetry out of thin air in his live comments as well as his writings and acknowledged that those remembered words are surprising. He also talks of acquaintances who can/could recite verbatim from memory. Is this related to solving the clues in the poem? Probably couldn’t hurt…especially in visualization and being familiar…

    • James,
      He also said he looked up definitions. Why look up definitons to words you already know the meaning of? This is a suggestion that we might need to look at less common definitions. One example from TTOTC is in the chapter, Totem Cafe Caper. FF’s boss drove by in a car and told him he had been “canned”. He didn’t know what that meant and had to ask his mother who told him he’d been fired. So the word canned meant exactly what it says. Yet canned can mean that you canned fruit, or that you were fired. I think we need to look deeper at the definitions IMO

      • Hi Flutterby, page 4 TTOTC, “I tend to use some words that aren’t in the dictionary, and others that are” He has refered to himself as a (wordsmith), a (word crafter), and a word architect. But he was adamat about the words in the poem meaning exactly what they say. HTH

        • James,
          I agree with you that the words in the poem mean exactly what they say. But, have you looked at every definition of each and every word so that you know what they say? Perhaps we think we know what they say because we apply common definitions as we read the sentence. But, to choose a less common definiton can alter the entire meaning of the poem. Not that we change the word, but that we change the meaning of the word to clarify what is really being said, instead of what we think is being said. Anybody that wants to go with the common definitions of words, go for it! But, I am looking at all known definions of every word in the poem. As you apply different definitions, you find that it can alter the entire meaning, while still meaning exactly what is said.

  72. Here is one of the many poetry tips brought to my attention by one of my more scholarly acquaintances. This one is the definition of a “line” of poetry.
    A line of poetry is a unit of language into which a poem or play is divided, which operates on principles which are distinct from and not necessarily coincident with grammatical structures; such as the sentence or single clauses in sentences.

  73. Most of this line of thinking as been yacked about over the years by almost all, but it has always brought me back to a single question;
    Why are there six stanzas IF only three stanzas contain the clues? [as many of us have shown by posting their idea’s of what a clue is in the poem placement]

    Fenn has said all the words are deilberate, he look them up and changed them to get it all just right. Says, it’s not wise to discount words on the poem etc. Many say there are hints in the poem, only fenn has never used the word hint referring to the poem [ although fenn seems to call everything a clue, even the “useless clues” ]

    Lets forget words clues and hints for a sec and look at it all as information…and information has to say / tell something… right? Our task is to ‘decipher clues’ another words, understand them. While the book can help, we are told, If all the “information” to “find” the treasure is in the poem… those three stanzas should have important information… leave no words out, line of thinking.

    So just for fun, how would this work? I would think that something within the poem would ‘match’ the clue’s deciphering.
    Example; FTINPFTM may line up with IYABAITHE… a simple or trying to simplify how the poem might read… in this case and thought… ‘meek’ relates to [ no not brave, yet ] but, wood as a direct connection to petrified wood, not woods. Now add in brave and ‘meek’s’ meaning seems to imply a place that is of a geographical/knowledge of possible deciphering of the line in stanza three.

    The example above was the easiest to convey the thought/theory. The point is, has fenn designed a poem that works this way… without all the decoding, different languages, hours of researching, guessing distances… even manufacture clues like WWH. fenn said we need to ‘learn’ WWH. Seem to me the book could be helpful not directly point at something [ very subtle ].
    So where do we discover more helpful “information”? Maps surely are helpful… only we need to know what to be looking for in the first place or it’s nothing more than a darts toss.
    Another quick example; creek as meaning a narrow passage and in the wood as a saddle of a mountain passage… for the same lines, yet still related to places and geography of those places.

    This leaves the poem itself, and more to the fact the three ‘leftover’ stanzas.
    IMO, these stanzas can’t be an intro or ending… their [ 3 stanzas ] words should be deliberate as well, an just as important, I would think. Again, my example above was a simple idea of how this could unfold… words usages in one section of the poem ‘explains’ aids, help, assist, call it what you like, the deciphering of a ‘clue’s reference’ be it a place, location, or anything else. Should the line NPFTM be something to do with BAITW as petrified wood [ a deciphering of that line ] Then all the clues should work the same, right? …even if that decipher clue doesn’t give up a location on a map yet, it would still be considered deciphered.

    And to my overall point. Why has it been so hard to understand, figure out any clue, even when present on site and walking, passing, popo stick by all the remaining clues and the chest and not realizing the first two clues were deciphered [ mentioned correctly, in order ]? or even having up to the first ‘four’ clues… Is it a simple error on our part that we can guess a clue, here or there and just end up at the location? Yet, not understand how the poem’s design [ the architect, line of thinking ] has the information, only that information is so closely related, yet in different word usages we simple don’t see those connects and go of on those tangent thoughts fenn warns of?

    A lot of what I have said as been talked about over the years, However, I think as time… revisiting the idea of ‘starting fresh’ is difficult for many to do, self included. Why are three deliberate worded stanzas in the poem almost forgotten or hardly ever mentioned as Important or just as important as the other three? We can have fun listing our brilliant thinking about what Line is a clue all day long… where in the poem does the information come from to aid, help, maybe even point a reader to how to decipher the “Nine” clues [ seemingly located is three of the six stanzas ]

    I posted a suggestion for a possible deciphering of the line / possible clue FTINPFTM, with a type of confirmation using IYABAITW. without another lingo or parting letters from other words or something from different books etc. Any one care to share a thought about how another part of the poem could actually give us a deciphering in this manner-?- only using the poem’s lol, extra three stanza?

    IF we are to “learn” WWH… shouldn’t there be a ‘lesson’ [for lack of a better term] in the poem to figure out with all the clues? Actually “learning” to read the poem’s “information” [the blueprint as ‘designed’]

    • Hi Seeker;

      An interesting challenge.

      If we start with your “From there it’s no place for the meek…” – marrying up with “If you’ve been brave and in the wood…” then we are
      left with stanza’s 1, 2,4 and 5 to work with.

      I see a correlation between stanzas 1 and 2.
      Stanza 1 – “As I have gone alone in there” seems to be a beginning –
      As does stanza #2 – “Begin it where…”

      Stanzas 4, and 5 – when reversed – 5 before 4 says
      “So why must I go and leave my trove…” – and stanza #4 answers – “If you’ve been wise and found…”

      So yes, I can see how one of the “Clue” stanza’s can easily relate to one of the “Hint” stanzas. Neat Idea Seeker.

      More food for thought – JDA

      • JDA ~ ‘then we are left with stanza’s 1, 2,4 and 5 to work with.’

        No, not necessarily. They both are only one line in each stanzas… they just seem to be implying the same thought process.
        Not unlike warm vs. cold chitter chatter; one being in stanza 2 and the other in stanza 6… like… NPFTM in stanza 3 to BANTW also from stanza 6.
        So we’re not really ‘left with only’ 1 2 4 5.

        ***The whole idea [ and the long explanation above ] is to talk about ~ how the blueprint of the designing of the poem ~ might show us “how” to decipher, and not so much give answers to a clue… we still need to think about that.*** another words, “how” to read the poem’s blueprint.

        My simple example started with a [commonly thought] clue and what else in the poem would “lead” to a conclusion of that clue.
        It doesn’t matter if it’s a line, a word or two, a sentence or a whole stanza… it’s about reading the “information”

        Look at it this way; fenn design [ for example in a building blueprint ] has instructions to place the pieces together. like a 2×6’s for wall and 2×12’s for floor joice’s, only we need to know what a 2×6 and a 2×12 refers to. Hence the idea, fenn is explaining ‘what’ a clue reference might be [ the 2×6 ]… in stanzas we all seem ti simple skim over. Per my example “meek” vs. “wood” for “petrified”wood”… in theory.

        We would still need to see how everything builds upon each other… so it could be possible that the hidey spot be a hollow out piece of petrified wood that fenn would lean against and take a hand full of sleeping pills, line of thinking. The thought is… when all is the pieces are in place, something should pop and say what took me so long … to read the poem this way. LOL in theory of course.

        Some may not like the idea that the poem would be so closely related in this manner… all the 9 clues would have to related for any idea to be built off of…. the stomping point to point only looking at map references does work for this theory.

        • Seeker,

          I agree with your post in part, “So we’re not really ‘left with only’ 1 2 4 5.” My line of thinking is that stanzas 2, 3, 4 & 6 contain all of the clues needed to solve the poem and they are actionable clues. Stanzas 1 & 5 really don’t have any value in a solution as they don’t have actionable clues. Stanzas 1 & 5 are those few words that will not help in a solution.

          That’s only my opinion.

      • I can see your point seeker. Yes, like you, I took only one line from a stanza and married it to another line in another stanza.

        I agree that the whole poem – separated from clue stanzas and hint stanzas – is a “blueprint” of an idea that uses ALL of the stanzas to create. A painting is made up of many items and many colors – they all come together to create a single painting. So too with the poem. Let the clues be to items, and let the hints be the colors – together they create the painting – together they are the blueprint that IS the foundation for figuring out what the “Theme” of the picture is. One can not paint a picture of a waterfall without the hills or mountains that “contain” the waterfall. One can not paint a waterfall without using blues and whites (and a few others also – sometimes). All are needed to convey the “Idea” of the waterfall. Just more rambling from an old guy that has nothing better to do – JDA

  74. I like the idea of lines lining up to help with other lines. The biggest similarities I see between stanza’s are 1 and 5. Many believe the clues are all in 2,3, and 4, which would make these two the bookend stanzas for the clues.

    AIHGAIT relates to SWIITIMG with gone alone in there and I must go
    AWMTB > ALMTFATS : treasures and trove
    ICKMSW > TAIAK: secret and answers
    The first three lines in both stanza’s are related to each other. Since they are then there must be a relation to hints of new and old and tired and weak. Perhaps he showed us all three are related to let us know that the real ‘hint of riches new and old’ is tired and weak. Could tired and weak alone help us with WWWH?

    • Aaron – Tired can mean wanting to lie down – being near the ground and weak can mean watered down, as in a weak or watered down drink.
      Tied in with WWWH – hard stretch for me – JDA

      • If the water was rushing in rapids or from a geyser, and suddenly comes to a halt could that be tired and weak? It had lots of energy then all of the sudden none.

      • JDA – Are you saying that is how you perceive tired (wanting to lie down) and weak (watered down), or just presenting those as options? The trouble I have with that is how do you reconcile the words before tired because they make it past tense, therefore, according to your possibility, that would make the line I’ve done it laying down? Just curious.

        • Bowmark;

          “I’ve done it tired, and now I’m weak.”

          “I’ve done it tired…” very strange choice of words.
          “I’ve done it…” Past tense – What did Forrest do yesterday or some yesterday in the past? He “Hid” it. What did Forrest hide?
          (Indulgence).
          So, “I hid indulgence tired???” Yes, He hid Indulgence in a place at ground level or below…” and now I’m weak”

          So, He (Forrest) hid indulgence in a place that is at ground level or below that is wet or “Watered down”.

          Yes, that is how I interpret these lines. Just how I interpret it – JDA

        • Bowmarc, I hope, can “handle” knowing that “tire” in French means “pull” (as in “pull a sled”). I also hope Sledneck can
          “handle” this.

          What does all this have to do with the hunt?

          I believe, in my “heart of hearts”, that people like to be
          acknowledged. This is my little way of providing some
          acknowledgment . . . as well as a “thank y’all” to FF for
          providing us all with this hunt. All IMO.

      • Think this stanza is kind of neat….well, the entire poem is neat.

        Maybe the answer, to his question “So why is it that I must go…”, is for the ‘finder’ to discover and lies inside the chest?

        He already knows the answers to the clues and hints.

        He’s already performed the solve (‘done it’) at a somewhat advanced age (‘tired’) and it took quite a bit of effort, leaving him weakened.

        I don’t know yet…but maybe providing Mr. Fenn with the correct answer to the one question he asks in the poem is his way of knowing the ‘finder’ has indeed recovered the chest?

    • Aaron, I liked the way you put it ‘bookends’. I don’t think this is what Seeker was trying to explore but I agree that there is a strong connection between those 2 stanzas. On the first he says what he did, on the fifth he shows why and how. Deciphering that is key to stanzas 2,3 and 4.

      • Oz, thanks.
        Not that Aaron is wrong, but I don’t like the ‘bookends’ either… that might imply stanza 6 is nothing more than a closing comment or less usable. That is a lot of words to leave out…lol and would kill my example above.

        Lingerdoubt ~ ‘…is for the ‘finder’ to discover and lies inside the chest?’ fenn knowing the chest was taken.
        I get your thoughts, but i have to wonder if words like your and you’ve put too much emphasis on us and not enough on the poem.
        For example; your creek could be saying “your land” the public land… a subtle clue within a clue to say, not on private land, Indian reservations, not in Canada etc.
        Although You’ve seem to be directly related to the actual searcher his or her self. Which in-turn may apply to warm… lol i haven’t got that far yet to worry about it. Fenn said the chest is straight forwards [ to me that means in all honesty and correctness ] when asked is contents/item in the chest related to the hidey spot. the answer was nope…

        Only fenn said he has a way of “knowing” – that is an absolute, and not so much a hope that if and when someone find the chest they will definitely contact fenn… that is a big leap of faith in my mind.

        • If FF has a way of “knowing” that the TC has been found, perhaps it is in a place where a person must apply for a hiking permit and he has access to that. Another thought is that perhaps it is in an area where Peggy’s family owns land. Just wondering aloud.

  75. “If you’ve been wise *and* found the blaze,” This line in the poem does not mean you have to be wise just to find the blaze. This line to me is simply saying if you have been smart enough to solve all of the previous clues prior to you finding the blaze, then you should look quickly down. Also It is more likely that you can easily find the blaze provided you are in the correct area in solving the previous clues.

    Too many times I’ve seen that you have to be wise *just* to find the blaze.

    Just Say’n

    • “If you’ve been wise and found the blaze…”
      If you have been wise in the past, and have found the blaze – This is a past tense action. You needed to be wise yesterday, or some yesterday and spotted the blaze, and now that you see it in reality, recognize it as THE blaze – or this is how I see it.

      Why wise? The old adage, wise as an owl…

      An owl always seeks the highest place available as a perch from which to spot his prey – we too must seek a “High Perch” from which to spot the blaze – and “Look quickly down…” Another way of saying that you must be UP in order to look down – Forrest is saying the same thing twice – must be important – JMO – JDA

    • The phrasing of this part of the poem is indeed open to interpretation, as is pretty much the entire poem. Our task is to choose the correct interpretation.

      It could simply mean that you found the blaze because you were wise in following the clues to this point. I think that is the simplest and most common interpretation.

      Or, it could mean that you found the blaze and you were *also* wise about something at this point or earlier. In other words, two things that are otherwise unrelated to each other, but that must *both* be true to find Indulgence. So, if you find the blaze without having been wise then you are lacking some important information you should have learned along the way and you cannot proceed further with good hope of success. Time to go back to the beginning and try again.

      Also keep in mind that “to get wise” is common slang for correctly understanding something that is not what it seems to be under ordinary scrutiny, as in seeing through a deception. So, taking that with interpretation #2 above, perhaps something in the poem is not what it seems to be even with BOTG, and you have to “get wise to” whatever that is and *also* find the blaze before looking “quickly down” or you will not find what you are looking for. Perhaps “getting wise” before finding the blaze is how you know what to look for when you “look quickly down” after finding the blaze.

      Personally, I gravitate toward the simpler explanation. I think you found the blaze because you’ve been wise.

      Just musing.

    • JDA,

      I never said that it wasn’t past tense, I hope you are just adding to what I had said.

      Now why would you associate an owl to *wise*. The line says if *you* are wise. Again I hope you just adding to. I don’t see an adage in there or linkage to an owl.

      Hafta hand it to ya, fur ya’s imagination
      my friend.

      • ChartlieM –

        You seem a bit testy today – YES, I was just addin’

        I associate wise and owl because I have heard the expression “Wise as an owl” since before you were born. It MAY not be true, but it is an old adage – The eye feathers make one think of someone wearing glasses, and somehow glasses used to relate to studious individuals – the “Professor type” – wise (or smart at least). YUP I do have an active imagination – JDA

        • I don’t think it’s an overactive imagination that’s indicating owl with wise, I think it’s sound and logical connecting the statement to an owl as well as imagining yourself up high looking down to solve an ex- pilot’s cryptic poem.

  76. This will be my first and only post here. I’m tapping out. I got sucked down this rabbit hole two years ago and I need to head back topside, so I’m laying my cards out for all to see. Even though I’ve never contributed, this website has been my go-to site for information, inspiration and insight, so I figure maybe someone here can use what I’ve gleaned, find the chest and end this madness for once and for all. I’m not going to share everything because I don’t believe I have any information that hasn’t already been covered here, so a few thoughts and a solve that might spark something for someone.

    -First off, regarding the poem, I think many people are trying too hard. Sometimes 1+1 does actually equal 2. After reading the books, the letters, watching the interviews and such I really believe FF is much more down to earth and ‘average’ than people would like to believe. My solve is rooted in this observation. Keep it simple. I’ve run through hundreds of variations of meanings for the clues leading to innumerable solves and I still keep coming back to the one I’m going to share.
    -I believe the first clue, WWWH, points to a general geographic location. Glacier National Park is what I ultimately ran with. WWWH→Glaciers. There are a lot of areas with Glaciers in the Rockies but I could not find another one where the sequence of clues actually worked (without a stretch anayway).
    -TiiTCD is the second clue. ‘It’ being a road and, by all accounts, the area where the West Glacier entrance is located is referred to by the locals as The Canyon.
    -NFBTFTW – From the entrance head down Going to the Sun Rd along Lake McDonald.
    -PIBTHoB – Mt. Brown. Keep it simple. Park and head up Avalanche Creek.
    -FTINPFTM – Avalanche creek. Avalanches are scary, and I suppose still possible at the location.
    -TEIEDN – I take this as ‘you’re getting close’.
    -TBNPUYC – I believe this is referring to one of the creeks that come off the mountain and down into Avalanche Lake. Steep, rocky. No canoeing possible.
    -JHLAWH – Avalanche potential and water sources above Avalanche Basin, like Hidden Lake. I think there are glacial remnants up there too, but I can’t confirm.
    -Here’s where the web-based research stops and BOTG becomes necessary. I think you need to be onsite to actually find the blaze. I suppose you’ll know it when you see it. Once you do though, the chest will be right there (right?). The one issue I do have with the solve is with the elevation. You can get to 5000’ in the basin, I just don’t know how difficult it would be to climb to that elevation. There are some interesting water features around the 5000’ level that I would certainly investigate.

    Brave and in the wood, worth the cold, and all other clues given seem to work with this solve. That’s what I’ve got. Not the first to propose this location, but given my two years of research, if I had the funds to fly out and look for myself this is where I’d go. Honestly, looking at the pictures of Avalanche Basin I would love to go visit, treasure or no.

    That’s it. I tried to be concise. Good luck.

    • Sean, we went to both YSNP and Glacier over the summer. I planned out a search using this almost exact solution. My plan was to check hidden creek near a waterfall at 48.669994, -113.794699. I had just assumed it was above 5000′ feet when I planned it. Before conducting this search I realized I was mistaken about the elevation.

      We did have a great Avalanche Lake hike though. It is one of the most beautiful places I’ve ever seen. We saw a black bear there too.

  77. If you were standing where treasure chest is….it would look like “Almost heaven”…quoting John Denver’s “Country Roads”; Views to die for…

  78. I keep on saying on other discussions that you should consider the tense of the lines in the poem. Fenn could have written the lines in all present tense, but he didn’t, and I think there is a reason to it.

    I think the tense in the lines does not refer to the historical times but rather the order of the search instruction. Therefore, the lines written in future tense should be placed after the lines written in either present and the past tense. If you do that the last clue (Fenn said there are nine clues in the poem) is, IMO, “If you are brave and in the wood.” Still all the clues are in the correct consecutive order if you disregard other lines in the poem related to the logistics and other minor stuff. This clue should be used after you actually find the blaze.

    I think you should be able to find the blaze on Google map in your armchair, but you have to be your BOTG to find the chest. Fenn said the searcher can go CONFIDENTLY (not sure I’m quoting the exact word) knowing where the chest is hidden.

    — MK

  79. It seems quiet today. So to get back to the hunt for that old beat up chest instead of a shiny new medallion.

    “The poem is written in plain English words that mean exactly what they say. No need to figure pounds per square inch, head pressures, acre feet, square roots, or where true north is, to find the solution.”

    “But the poem is straightforward. If you can figure out the clues there…”

    So the poem is straightforward and written in plain English, but it sounds like the poem and the clues are referred to separately. Maybe the clues aren’t in “plain English” and straightforward might not refer to a literal interpretation in English?

  80. Consider this quote that you are familiar with:

    “Some searchers overrate the complexity of the search. Knowing about head pressures, foot pounds, acre feet, bible verses, Latin, cubic inches, icons, fonts, charts, graphs, formulas, curved lines, magnetic variation, codes, depth meters, riddles, drones or ciphers, will not assist anyone to the treasure location, although those things have been offered as positive solutions. ”

    Note that the word “riddles” is included. Does this mean that there are NO RIDDLES in the poem, and we should not read it as such? I still see a lot of people calling it a riddle. There are also many questions posed to Forrest where people say it’s a riddle, but he doesn’t correct them. Perhaps he’s not going to say whether it’s riddle or not? In the back of my mind though, I seem to recall Forrest himself referring to it as a riddle, can any corroborate this thought?

    • On Tarry Scant search for “riddle,” I found 5/8/17 interview “On the Road with Charlie – Part 1,” where FF does say “…you’re gonna have to solve the riddle that’s in my poem. The nine clues that are in my poem.”

      It’s possible he considers the 9 clues as “the riddle,” a general term for something that needs to be figured out, rather than a so-called classic riddle such as what’s black and white and red/read all over, tho still requiring similar skills of imagination and a different way of thinking to get the answer. Best I could come up with for the apparent contradiction.

      • That is my take also. The clues, taken together as a set, are a riddle to be solved. We commonly think of a riddle as being phrased as a question, but it can also be a statement. In any event, a riddle is a puzzle with a solution. Often, finding the solution involves using the imagination. Solve the clues and you solve the riddle. In a sense, waypoints that mark out a path or place on a map can be a riddle, if they are described imaginatively. The solution to the riddle is the path or destination of the journey.

        Practically speaking, I just interpret his comment about “the riddle that’s in my poem” as meaning “figure out what the clues mean”. Riddle … clues … it’s all the same to me.

  81. Lets start this discussion again – posted in the CORRECT cagegory (I hope). So sorry that all your responses were deleted.

    A needle in a haystack? As I see it, no one is getting anywhere fast (how many years has this been going on?). So I have a suggestion. Let’s work on this TOGETHER. You know they say “two heads is better than one” – so look, how many heads do we have here? Surely we can make some major progress if we share and pool our creative ideas.
    Let’s start at what FF says is the beginning (if that is truly the start) and each of us post a possible response (or two or three) for ALL of us to consider. I will start.

    “Begin it where warm waters halt and take it in the canyon down,”
    1. a basin, tub, tank or other container

    2. the letter “s”………

    Now what do y’all have?

    • In my opinion, W(here) (W)arm (W)aters halt = here arm eight r’s =here eight armed =octopus, and the “s” and halt come together as ‘salt’. There is a “Salt” river in Wyoming. So, I don’t know, Octopus could be “ring see T ring pus (cat)” or something like that, or a place that has 8 r’s in it. Maybe a place where they eat or find salt… Just trying to think in a different direction. CB

      • Just thought of this. Could be eight individuals with weapons guarding something that has to do with salt or someplace 8 hrs drive from Santa Fe.

        • Maybe it is saying begin it by wearing warm waders! Or start the process after you are done crying or grieving. Maybe the poem is a process of self discovery and the treasure is in you.

          • I know no one wants to go here, but what if he is saying start in scripture. There are lots of references to water and salt in the canon. Warm water is not where you want to be if you take that path. Just sayin’, It would go with the self discovery process…

          • Mr. Fenn does make reference to reading his bible, shows us he is a baptist on his dog tags and explains where his church is…

          • He also said something about he wasn’t religious, but is a spiritual person” . In one of his books where his wife asks him why he is reading his bible he reply’s ” I didn’t want to talk about it.” and then he put something in the chest that he doesn’t want to talk about. I bet it is his favorite scriptures or his bible for guidance for the finder. All my opinion. The Chase is way “more” than we think. I mean, the man has cheated death more than several times, and God must be there somewhere in his life. He is a fisherman after all! LOL CB

  82. Thanks Christine for you ideas – great thoughts. I too had thot about salt and waders but not the 8er’s.

  83. Shhhhh – y’all. Can we talk religion here? There are holy spirits, native american ones, and of course – alcoholic ones. Oh and don’t forget the “temperament of the times” when he was a young child. Yes, I think it is relevant here.

  84. Shall we move on?

    “Not far, but too far to walk.”

    1. If it is not “far” – maybe it is “for” or “four”

    • What if he means this phrase in a different sense. Like you did something not terrible, but unsavory enough that you shouldn’t get away with it. You need to hold yourself accountable. You didnt go far but you went too far to get away with it. “Not far,” Naughty f are !

      • “Not far, but too far to walk” To me means you have to make a change. You have to know the cross for the right walk. Your butt to ring in the future if you don’t change, and then walking might be a problem! OUCH! Get off the high horses and pedestals and humble yourself, make a change in your state of being, in the way you see things and the way you respond to things. It’s not far but it’s a hard walk at first. It may require some crawling. Life is not fair, but made more fair when we walk in someone else’s boots on the ground, and maybe carry them or help them in their walk. JMO

        • Thank you Christina – I’m at the crosswalk and waiting for the light to change. So many people – I’m afraid they’re gonna push me out into the street and I will get run over. I think they need a safety patrol man here helping – alot of little old ladies (like me) and young children. Someone could get hurt.

  85. Ahhh the poem.
    The poem is a map with places, actions and directions in consecutive contiguous order to lead the seeker to the spot where the treasure chest is.
    I don’t think there are any references to bibles, religion, codes, cyphers, and other stuff other than geography.

    • Yes Mr. Faulker, the voice of reason! Keep your compass eye on the geography and head North from Santa Fe and watch out for the crosses! Everybody seems to have one. LOL.

  86. Veronica – I do that, also:

    My Indian Verbs with Double Entendres Nouns version of the Poem:

    Have gone,
    Treasures.
    Can keep,
    Hint.

    Begin halt,
    Take down.
    To walk,
    Put-in.

    ‘S,
    Drawing.
    Will be paddle,
    Loads.

    Have been found,
    Look down, quest to cease.
    Tarry marvel,
    Take go.

    IS must go,
    hide seek?
    Answers know,
    Have done.

    Hear listen,
    Effort will be.
    Are brave,
    Give.

    Not sure about effort as a Double Entendre verb/noun, so I may delete that word.

    What do you think?

  87. Lisa Cesarion May 15, 2019 at 11:54 pm said:

    Your comment is awaiting moderation.

    Veronica –

    Effort:

    Middle French, from Old French esforz, esfort, from esforcier to force, from ex- + forcier to force

    Yep! Archaic transitive verb.

    Ask Yoda:

    May the ‘force’ be with you.
    There is no ‘try’.

    Ef•fort – Noun. The place with Forrest’s hidden Gold secreted inside.

    All IMO

    • Lisa, I don’t think Beowulf (the poem) has anything to do with the Chase, it’s just a pet’s name. …. I think ‘alligator’ might, or not. I try not to ride the tangents OUT. I try to ride them IN … to the the launch pad. You sometimes do that pretty good, and recently renewed my interest in a solve I was working on a few years ago ….. Thanks, I wish I could test it. Its really big..

      • OS2 – Glad I could help. Great about reviving your past solve!

        One of my original solves I emailed to Forrest was a futuristic one involving the Albino Alligators from Werner Herzog’s “Cave of Forgotten Dreams”. My WWWH was their escape from their Geodesic dome home, near that cave in France, in 1000 years, long after there were no more of us Homo Sapiens left to solve the Poem. Because of Global Warming, the Albino Alligators could swim freely in the “water high”, across the Atlantic Ocean, or even through the Northwest Passage in the Arctic Sea, to get to where they knew Yellowstone would be the perfect home. They could smell warm waters anywhere.

        But upon arriving at Alligator Heaven, Hebgen Lake, and exploring upstream on their hunt for the Giant Brown trout spawning on the Madison River, the largest Albino Alligator climbed up on land and bit down on something strange. The bronze chest! He opened his mouth to spit it out, and the contents spilled out everywhere. And there was a piece of parchment with writing on it.

        The Albino Alligators gathered around, never seeing a collection of objects quite like this before. They exchanged glances, casting their heads to and fro, opening their jaws and closing them.

        Yes, they had found Forrest Fenn’s elusive bronze chest, with his long sought after biography inside. But, alas, they just stumbled upon it, and they couldn’t digest anything inside, and they could not read.

        Let’s find this thing this Summer, Searchers!

        Beware! The Albino Alligators may have already arrived:

        https://www.vanityfair.com/culture/2010/09/about-those-white-crocodiles/amp

      • OS2 – About that ‘CairnXross’ they built for Beowulf in that Epic poem…would you knock this down, if it were a big pile of river rocks, shaped like a conical Pyramid, out on my Double Omega Island? With maybe a bronze plaque with something engraved on it about a homely girl or a Rainbow-shaped epitaph?:

        https://photos.app.goo.gl/3394dyMdMPQjq8Ha6

        I can see why the Albino Alligator stumbled upon the bronze chest, after that Global Warming-induced post-Millennial Second Great Flood.

        IMO. Giggles.

      • OS2 – About that ‘CairnXross’ they built for Beowulf in that Epic poem…would you knock this down, if it were a big pile of river rocks, shaped like a conical Pyramid, out on my Double Omega Island? With maybe a bronze plaque with something engraved on it about a homely girl or a Rainbow-shaped epitaph?:

        https://photos.app.goo.gl/3394dyMdMPQjq8Ha6

        I can see why the Albino Alligator stumbled upon the bronze chest, after that Global Warming-induced post-Millennial Second Great Flood.

        IMO. Giggles. Repost.

      • OS2 – Shall we discuss the architecture and longevity of the Brown Willy Summit Cairn, and how it can also be called a ‘tumulus’ or ‘thumb’? Didn’t Forrest hold his up to block out Philadelphia, while flying over it? Did he do the same, while flying into KWYS over my “IT”?:

        https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brown_Willy

        Sadly, for me, Google Earth doesn’t go down far enough. Bummer.

        IMO.

      • OS2 – Which brings me to the “home of Brown” and the double entendre verb ‘home’ of Brown:

        https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mary_Babnik_Brown

        Those cross hairs. Used in the Norden Bombsight. By the Enola Gay to drop Little Boy, for instance. That device incorporates triangulation to pinpoint a target. The hypotenuse of the triangle is the straight forward, correct flight path.

        Need to check that YNP boundary single track North-heading trail, married to the map with my other Poem clue solves. Like from my WWWH at Madison Junction to my hidey spot on my Double Omega Island at Baker’S Hole, via:

        1) taking the West Entrance Road East
        2) then heading directly North, on a backwards bike, on that trail from the Fennhaven Cabins
        3) with the hypotenuse being the Madison River zone Forrest traveled in the Preface of TFTW.

        I think Baker’S Hole would be Ground Zero. I bet Forrest flies right along that hypotenuse, as he lands at KWYS airport. And Sirius in Canis Major could assist with perfect timing for the BOTG plan of attack, TT, right?

        All IMO.

  88. wait for me, Begin it and take it, this to me is one road, the one you must fine and nail down to locate the remaining clues. The first clue, “it”is not the key word but if your at the intersection facing it while on the end of the road where warm water was, your going to want to turn onto it and take it in the canyon down. To me the first two clues are the same this is why searchers could figure out the first two clue but didn’t know they did, they contacted him and told him where they were. If I was so sure where I was to contact him and so sure in another spot to contact him again and they were right, why wouldn’t they know it? Plus if they were right on the second clue this would mean they must of had the first one nailed down right? But yet they both gave up?? One more, the question someone asked if they found the home of Brown first could the backtrack to find wwwsh and he replyed why would you. But I thought if you don”t have the first clue you don’t have anything right? To me they took a gess at the intersection named “it” not realizing your to begin it there and take it in, clue one and two are referring to the same thing, the name of the road you must be on to locate some of the other clues before you park and put BOTG. Note: You need “it” more then warm waters but the key wins the spot or not. Only one thing, WHERE IS “IT”?

  89. When does a searcher need to move beyond a clue?

    Lets say, as some have seemingly done, a searcher is standing at whatever WWWsH refers to. The most common notions is to go down within a canyon, or WWsH starts with in a canyon and the searcher heads [ lets say southward ].
    We now have the line NF, BTFTW. This in-of-it-self doesn’t give us a distance that a searcher even needs to move. So are we actually told to move away from WWsH yet? That depends on your personal feelings of what “take it in” means.
    My problem is; IF it’s does mean a searcher is to move… we must know a distance to do so, and/or know where to go next. This now involves “put in Below the hoB” Again, if we are to move away from WWsH, we need to know for certain what and where hoB is, and possibly the distance [ unless we can see it from WWsH… right?
    Ok, that’s the 2nd stanza and we are to believe this stanza may contain possibly four clues.
    Since 2012 [ respectfully ] we have been told searcher have figured out the first two clues, yet clues 3 and 4 seem to have stumped them all.
    If we don’t know a distance to travel [ lets call that clue 3 ], how can a searcher even think about moving elsewhere, that would be simply guessing a distance. IF we can’t see the next clue’s reference, [ lets call that hoB where most would like to physically put into something ] how can we move if we can’t see where to go-?- this would seem a poke and hope to simply travel in a direction and grasp at the land feature for an ah-ha! moment.
    Now we have stanza 3.. it starts with “from there” lol, from where? So far we don’t know a distance to travel nor a place to go to. What we do have is, a searcher still at WWsH twiddling out thumbs. For folks to move with confidence away from WWsH, I would think we need to see hoB to “put in below” it. But that kinda skips the idea of needing NF, BTFTW as a clue. I mean, what difference would it make if it’s 100′ or a mile or more to travel? So if NF,BTFTW is a clue, what is its purpose?
    For me, it seems to indicate the next clue [hoB] is viewable from WWsH. Great right? That would get a searcher moving, without guessing a distance. So, all we need to do is go there [regardless of distance]. IF so, we have a problem. It seems anyone who has been on site with the correct first clues might have done just that… and basically skipping what NF, BTFTW might be relaying. Which eventually has those searchers going by the remaining clues and walking passed the chest.
    Here’s a kick in the butt… what happened to the rest of the clues? Did searcher not find a single one-?- yet manage to get fairly close to the ending spot. “…People have figured the first couple of clues and unfortunately walked passed the treasure chest.” I’ll add; “… an 80 yr old is not going down and up a canyon…” Ok that’s easy to explain… WWsH must be within a canyon, sounds reasonable, right? Yet we still have the problem with NF,BTFTW.
    IF it’s not a clue… and folks moved to another location for the reason of getting to the next clue [ hoB ], suggest; all would have had the first 3 clues correct.
    IF it is a clue, this is where all seemingly got stumped. So what is stumping folks who had indicated the first two clues correctly, but not NF,BTFTW? Again, without guessing or using later books by the author as a hopeful answer… we don’t have a distance. This is where I see the problem… NF, BTFTW might simply indicate; the next clue is not far, but too far to go… so why do we go?
    Might it be because searchers saw a hopeful hoB and feel we need to be at it-?- skipping the 3rd clue which might be telling us to stay put, do go there?
    IF so, then the reading and interpretation of words and phrases used takes on a whole new idea. If we can view [“take it in” as viewing it] hoB from WWsH, and NF,BTFTW is a warning not to go, just see / find hoB… “put in below” could mean the same, *look* below hoB. In this scenario, a searcher would have not left WWsH, the one clue we must have or we have nothing, just stay home.

    I even find that a bit interesting… if hoB can be located on a map why not just go to that, or HLnWH… Is it because we don’t need go to them?
    Clues 3 and 4 has put a stop on what happens next. The question is why those clues stumped all, even on site with the first critical clue deciphered along with clue two?
    IMO, from what I can tell by the many post and solves explained by thousands of searcher… NF,BTFTW had been manufacture to be a distance of travel, skipped altogether, or require alternative transportation to move on with no real idea of an exact distance to drive, boat or fly to. To do so, that would require clue 3 “solved” and clue 4 as well for a destination to be at. Only we have been told [up to 2017] no one has correctly indicated to fenn the correct order of clues beyond the first two.

    Is this a stomping mode only solution-?- a point to point must travel solve… or… do we need to consider fenn’s suggestions of “Planning and Observing” a bit more? I mean, if weather could be a factor [in finding ‘clues’ on site], planning for a clear day might be something to should consider… especially if the need to observe clues, as a required. Is this the reason fenn tells all to pack it in when winter hits? Can clues be obscured by snow fall, rather than a simple safety issue… or lack of common sense.

    Clues 3 and 4 have “stumped” searchers for years… I find that interesting as well when fenn made that comment. Not clue 3 or clue 4… but both. LOL why not 5 or 6 as well? The problem might be how we ‘see’ the poem.

    • Seeker;

      It sure makes sense to me. That is why I now have my “Small Area Visual” solve. It seems to work for me. I am awaiting the availability of my team to test it out. Hopefully in June, or possibly July. Thanks for such a clear post of your ideas. Of course, your idea only works if in the correct location. JDA

    • @Seeker – You raise some good points in your post. For me, NF,BTFTW is a visual and movement descriptor regarding the WWWH clue. Once this is taken into consideration, the subsequent clues can be interpreted from a theoretical perspective that has been discussed in piecemeal by the blog community but never really compiled cohesively and applied to the poem with an ATF checks-and-balances schema—well, at least not publicly. 🙂

      • Bowmarc,
        Without know exactly waht your thoughts and process are…

        Sure… I can shoot a type of scenarios such as a waterfall with a 100′ drop as waters [halt] changing direction [ temporally ] which could cover the first two clues… NF, but you can’t walk down a waterfall, idea.

        But that would include the idea of three clues solved, not just two. Unless the common idea of what the clues are in stanza 2 are not what they really are.

        • @Seeker – It appears that you are taking FF’s comment (paraphrased) about stanza #2 sounding like 3 or 4 clues to be gospel. If the entirety of the first sentence of stanza #2 is counted as 1 clue (because the NF,BTFTW wordage is still in reference to our first known clue of WWWH), then the second sentence of the stanza may contain multiple clues to make that FF quip a valid one.

          IMO, there are definitely 2 clues in stanza #2, with the possibility of a third, but such lives on the edge of my current solve technique so it is too soon to say because such has not been applied to the entirety of the poem yet. Whether or not it is 2 or 3 clues in stanza #2 doesn’t really detract from the application of this technique because the resulting understanding of how the information presented in stanza #2 shakes hands with one another is unchanged. In other words, the information that could be considered a clue is more of a resulting mechanic from the application of the technique that is none-the-less pivotal for understanding our journey to Indulgence. Not surprisingly, it is after stanza #2 where I feel searchers depart from the poem.

          • Bowmarc,

            I can’t argue what is or is not a clue… My ideas and scenarios only try to think about what is a clue, which is a physical place, which is instruction, which are directions- if any… etc.
            But I see where you are coming from. The idea that a few pieces [clues] of information results in a single reference.
            I have always asked; how any clues does it take to get an answer we need?

            I’ll take it a step further… this whole thing could be about WWs entirely [ as a place ] Not unlike you standing on the front porch/steps of your home telling all what you see, fenn could be standing at the blaze telling what he see.

          • Well take another look sometime at stanza #2 as only having 2 clues, but loaded with information of geographic, analytical, and instructional value. 🙂

          • Bowmarc,

            I have thought about the difference between a physical clue references and information between them…

            For example;
            We are told to start at WWsH. Is that first clue possible the same type of feature of a later clue-?- only describe differently?
            Lets say; we have two WW’sH [ and for example, they are lakes ] IF we start at the first lake, well, hypothetically, we’re screwed. We would need to get to the next lake as being the first clue.
            Could this be how searchers indicated the first two clues but didn’t know it-?- they thought they were at HLnWh, line of thinking… but it was actually, the second lake they came to… and this could be how they went by the remaining 7 clues.

            In this scenario; a searcher would need to ‘start’ at the second WWsH [ lake ], because that is how the clues ‘get to the blaze.’ So, in this scenario; NF,BTFTW might be indicating to start from another references that is not far, but too far to walk ~ from where the blaze is located [the ending point]

            However, there might be a reason we just can’t stop at the first lake we come to… clues must be followed in the correct order to actually ‘locate’ the blaze. “If you’ve “been” wise.. past tense, idea. and found the blaze [ which we are told we must follow the clues, in connective order “in the poem” to achieve this ].

            OK I know the next question… why did fenn have to follow is clues if he could just stop at the first lake and go to the blaze?
            I don’t think he had a blaze [beforehand].
            *** refer to Becky’s Q&A.
            I think his clues gave him a place to make, create, use something on site as a blaze – ‘completing’ the poem. I don’t think a 10″ sq inch hunk of land is fenn’s special place, but more to the fact; everything within the area is his special place [ he may have simply known of a proximate spot he wanted to be at ] … so he followed his clues, he created by memory, to get to a spot he would have like to lay for eternity, and found / discovered, something for his blaze…An single object – in a word.
            Hence followed his clues to complete [completed?] the poem. Then hid the chest so no one could stumble upon it.

            LOL in this scenario, we could actually drive all the scenic viewings of the clues [ seeing fenn’s special place and what it contains ] and park near the last couple of clues, still having to start at the correct WWsh… even if there is more than one type of feature at the location of the clues.

            But I doubt if many would agree that two clues could be of the same type of feature, just describe in a different manner in the poem.

            ***Refer to a Q&A response about walking vs. something else ; If all the facts were know…
            And
            *** the comment; I followed the clues… before the poem was complete – [completed?

            My last comment in this scenario is about fenn’s possible special place. “And hint of riches new and old.”

            I think the poem might be designed by features that, still do and have over time, changed, which were physically created by a long past event… hence your effort will be worth the cold. The lakes, in this scenario might be glacier made [learning about WWsH and not just any lake], and once those remaining glaciers are gone… well, the end is ever drawing nigh.

            There are many possibilities of how the poem can be read, than just the simplistic idea of reading a road map. Yet still be a type of road map. The question is; If fenn was thinking down the road, wouldn’t he had in both directions “NEW and OLD”

            fenn wanted this ‘place’ known of and to be at it when he died. IMO, the poem’s “information” could reflect the land as it one was, as he see’s it now, and into the future.
            I don’t think the poem was designed around or about fenn himself… It about the mountains being his church..imo. This place simply has a personal meaning to him that he will not divulge… he’ll take it to the gave.

          • Hi Seeker;

            As usual, you have given us lots to ponder.

            I especially liked your last paragraph:

            “fenn wanted this ‘place’ known of and to be at it when he died. IMO, the poem’s “information” could reflect the land as it once was, as he see’s it now, and into the future.
            I don’t think the poem was designed around or about fenn himself… It about the mountains being his church..imo. This place simply has a personal meaning to him that he will not divulge… he’ll take it to the gave.”

            “As I have gone ALONE in there…” and:

            “Mr. Fenn,
            Did you choose the hiding location purely because it was special to you, or were there other considerations? […] ~Michael Monroe
            Thanks Michael. The spot where I hid the treasure was in my mind from the time I first started thinking about the chase. It is special to me and there was never another consideration. I was going to make it work no matter what. In my reverie, I often find myself stealing away to that place and I will always consider it to be mine alone.” F and:

            “In my reverie I often find myself stealing away to that place and I will always consider it to be mine alone.” f

            I guess we shall never know – and that is OKAY!!!

            JDA

          • @ Seeker: Sorry it took so long to respond to your long reply—I sometimes lose track of which thread(s) I have posted on and only re-discovered this one today…LOL.

            I have rewritten some of your post below with what I understand to be what you intended to type as opposed to what actually made its way onscreen—not picking on you, just want to be able to respond accordingly to what I am interpreting you meant.

            We are told to start at WWsH.

            FF has told us to begin it WWWH and was kind enough to also tell us that such is the first of the 9 clues. I think FF is being clever here, and searchers are set up to fail from clue #1 because of our “intuitive understanding” of that wording.

            Is that first clue possibly the same type of feature of a later clue, only described differently?

            I am certainly open to the concept that later clues reference something presented as a clue earlier in the poem. I have already commented that such would seemingly enhance a searcher’s confidence that they are on the right path while at the same time such limits the chances of finding Indulgence if the search community is hell-bent on the absolute necessity for there to be 9 separate and distinct clues. In other words, for example purposes only, 9 clues that only reference 6 distinct places a searcher needs to go to claim Indulgence compounds the complexity and the chances of actually claiming Indulgence if the searcher can’t be wise and listen good to FF to come to the understanding that there are only 6 places described by the 9 clues.

            Let’s say we have 2 WWsH that are each a lake. IF we start at lake #1, well, hypothetically, we are screwed. We would need to get to lake #2 as being the first clue.

            I guess it would depend upon how the lakes are laid out. A check and balance, at least for me, is FF’s statement to the effect that the clues should be followed in order because there is no other way to his knowlege. In your scenario, if there is a reasonable way to bypass lake #1 to get to lake #2 then I would have to re-examine why I needed lake #1 in the first place. If there is no way around lake #1, then I guess we need to consider if both lakes comprise our clue(s) simultaneously, which may be more in line with what you were originally positing (that both lake 1 & 2 make up WWWH but you need to go to the lake #2 end to be correct in your “solve” of that clue, or, as you put it later in your post about “there might being a reason we just can’t stop at the first lake” and “because that is how the clues ‘get to the blaze’”)?

            Continuing on with your lake scenario for a moment, it is certainly plausible that a searcher has gotten their clues out of order somehow and chose lake #1 as their WWWH and lake #2 as their HL&WH, when in actuality #2 is WWWH and #1 is HL&WH, in which case they have gone in the wrong direction I guess.

            Could this be how searchers indicated the first two clues but didn’t know it (They thought they were at HL&WH line of thinking, but HL&WH was actually lake #2, and this is how they went by the remaining 7 clues?

            Along this line of thinking, IMHO, if HL&WH were clue #2, there is too much intermediary information (PIBTHOB, FTINPFTM, TEIEDN, and TBNPUYC) between the 2 lines for the poem not to have at least one other clue present in that space, which then doesn’t allow your posit to be a validation of searchers identifying the first couple/first two clues and going by the others because the intermediary clue(s) is what initially connects to the WWWH clue.

            Putting the 2 lake scenario aside, since it is all really just a hypothetical, I am finding that FF has given us a method for solving the poem within the poem itself which requires analyzing and logically applying such to the rest of the poem without the need to know about “…head pressures, foot pounds, acre feet, bible verses, Latin, cubic inches, icons, fonts, charts, graphs, formulas, curved lines, magnetic variation, codes, depth meters, riddles, drones or ciphers…”. The clues shake hands in a counter-intuitive manner when you scrutinize them and put the emphasis on the right words (or, as I put it once before, by looking at what is in the shadows of what is otherwise in the spotlight). FF’s recent interview where he talks about “trove” is an excellent example of what I am describing, but exemplifying/clarifying beyond what I just described would be revealing too much of my process.

            In closing out replies to some of the things you posted above:

            There may have been some nice scenery along his drive, but I feel that all 9 clues are followed after he exits the car and starts walking.

            As to the features, everything, whether made by Mother Nature or manmade (if you don’t disallow such to be a part of the TTOTC due to certain ATF’s/comments), can and will change over time, so as time progresses it may become more difficult to solve this thing. He has said he was thinking (paraphrased) 10,000 years down the road, but the reality is he needed you use what was available as it was when he hid the treasure/finished the poem. For this reason, I think those things (answers to his clues) are all natural because, like you put it, “the mountains being his church” afterall.

            All IMHO.

    • Seeker – I’ve always thought of the poem as directions to get to the hidey spot from a starting point of reference (which I think most people believe to be WWWH). From your description, it sounds like you are making an argument for the hidey spot and the starting point of reference to be one and the same location. While I can’t give any firm reasons to discount this idea, to me this line of thinking seems to go against the idea of following the clues that Forrest has talked about and responded to questions regarding. Certainly a different way at looking at the poem though, and worth thinking about further.

      • Blex,

        EX 1. ~Follow; go along (a route or path)… which many adhere to for ‘the’ definition.
        EX 2 ~Follow also means; An instruction.
        keep track of; trace the movement or direction of. Dictionary example; “she followed his gaze, peering into the gloom”

        As I have suggested before… might we have misinterpret the intro sentence [to the poem] in the book, not understanding how fenn intended ‘follow and lead’ to understood-?- automatically thinking this is just another stomping out points in a treasure hunt. Follow the dotted line, line of thinking.
        Only we have been told to ‘plan and observe’

    • Seeker,
      “Snowy days are a searcher’s worst enemy”.f
      Usually the sun is obscured on a snowy day, which helps prevent snow-blindness unless you have the proper shades.

      On a related note… don’tcha hate it when you know their there nibbling cause your bobber is dancing, but they just wont bite! 🙂

      • Sometimes a fish won’t bite if it doesn’t look like a real meal. Once in a while a fish may say what the heck nibble a little. Taste it. Things that taste good are not always good for you. Once in a while you get both. What’s the odds. Take it in the canyon down. 50/50. Is it down in elevation or down like on a map. Who knows. Maybe it’s just up to anyone at that point.
        Once the TC is located I believe the story will not be fully told. I’m confident that even the finder will not no all.
        That’s to bad but if I was Mr. Fenn. And as not I would and probably will take some things with me past this time.
        I don’t speak for others so I try not to speak for Mr. Fenn. Even though it tonce me more then I like.
        If there were one thing that I and maybe all searchers would like to know is what would you like mankind to know about yourself before you can’t tell anymore. Something tells me that’s the answer to the riddle.
        I saw. This in my own fathers eyes before he went he did not say but I knew anyhow. Needs no explanation. And I would bet that Mr. Fenn. Would agree.
        Does this help with the solve. Only each of us can answer that. That’s the only bone I have for know.
        GH

    • Seeker,

      What you have stated and questions asked do have answers, in my eyes. I know when searchers talk about there search area they believe for the most part to have all the answers, or have made their clues solves fit no matter what to get to what they think is the right secret place.

      Let’s say those searchers that got the first two clues had other ideas of what the “distance” is in nfbtftw. I believe they didn’t understand what is “to far” for 79 or 80 year old Forrest to walk carrying a 20 plus pound pack. They think that he was healthy and able to do that challenge for a good distance because what they considered as hoB was in a different location then Forrest’s. So with that thinking they went right by the other clues.

      Now I can only say is the way I see this, and how the clues solves play out in my search area.

      When standing at WWWH there are two other clue solves that can be seen. Canyon down “trail” and hoB high above. I believe those searchers that have been to this area are not understanding what the hoB is, and that might be because of not enough research, or the fact they are not locals of this area.

      Now for the “not far but to far to walk”. This is the distance to the “put in” place. Remember this is the distance that Forrest walked and made two trips from his car in one afternoon. (Car parked between WWWH and hoB). So this distance is “not far” but to far to walk in Forrest eyes, especially when making those two trips. Distance roughly 1.15 miles + .25 uphill. Yes, not far for a casual hike, but for a hike with a purpose twice, and one that increases in eleavation after the put in point and possibly summertime, it’s to far to walk.

      This “put in trail” is not a established trail as the main trail that was just taken, so anyone who was to take it has to be brave enough to take it’s challenge of not knowing what could lie ahead, so not for the meek. Your taking a trail into an opening between two mountain sides that was created by the npuyc creek, I’m guessing, over many of years.
      Ok bare with me, at this put “in” place it’s “elevation” the spot on the main trail entrance (also the 500’place I believe) is “below” the elevation of hoB, in proximity to wwwh.

      Other clues solves reside after you get on this trail to the “left” (drawing nigh) into this area. You’ll find npuyc creek, heavy loads, water high, and hopefully the blaze which has yet to be determined, so you can look quickly down and see where indulgence is hidden.

      This is how the poem plays out for me. Does it answer some questions Seeker? Probably not, and it might even make more questions.
      Now if you were me it is clear, but there is no way to confirm this until the chest is found.

      I feel some searchers getting closer to my search area now. If you are, good luck and let me know what the d_mn blaze is.

      Bur

      • Hi Bur;

        I am intrigued by you statement ” and hoB high above”. I had not thought of looking “UP” or in a distance for hoB. This MIGHT make
        a lot of sense in my search area. I will have to go back and view a bunch of PIC’s of that area. Who knows what I might find. Thanks – JDA

      • Bur I don’t have a search area, other than, the four remaining state. I’m still trying to figure out where the location is and how to locate the first clue within it.
        I don’t believe we can figure out WWW’sH without a “location of all the clues” first and foremost. {which seems implied by fenn’s warning of certainty of the location beforehand… for the path to be direct}

        I also don’t take fenn’s abilities or lack of, into much consideration. I have seen interviews of folks who know him [ at almost age 80, Shilo for one ] who say he could still out walk him even at 8000′ [that might not be entirely true but it tells me fenn was in very good shape ].. lol don’t ask me what interview that was, I just remember it being said.
        {but hiking/ exploring / being in the mountains is something fenn did all his life, as a youngin, an adult, a soldier, and apparently with any free time he could find when running a art gallery.}

        Although, I do take what fenn explained he did on the day of the hide as a guide line so I don’t over extend a thought process. As far as **I’m** concerned, fenn park where he park, but didn’t park at a later clue.

        fenn for many years was asked questions in regards to him taking short cuts, or starting at later clues [ [which he never answered directly, at those times] only to make a later statement that he did follow the clues… I have to believe that started at clue 1… not somewhere down the road at a later clue.

        Hence one of the reasons for my above post. If he followed his own created clues and tell us there is no other way to his knowledge, and we need to do the same… why would I think I can start looking for later clues to go to-?- or even if we need to go to them. This created the idea; this might be more an observational solution vs. hiking point to point, or driving out some clues, or physically starting at later clues. We have ATFs that seem to contradict many of those idea. Well, and even suggested by fenn;

        Forrest, you talk about the clues being difficult to solve (opposite being easy) yet that the solutions are simple (opposite being complex). Yet when I read the stories of other searchers, I often think that their solutions to the clues tend to be either easy solutions or made out to be very complex and over-thought. Are there any suggestions you would give in approaching the clues and solving them? ~Craig
        Craig, there is no substitute for thinking **and planning and observing** and looking at maps, unless it’s the desire to keep it simple.f
        *Having a good plan is the best plan.
        *A good solve is frequently lost in a poor execution.
        “People think I sat down one night and wrote that poem. I didn’t write that poem, I crafted it,” he says. “No one is going to find that treasure chest on a Sunday afternoon picnic or over spring break.”

        What and why do we need to “plan and observe” [watch for?]
        I can say your wrong and I’m right, Bur. I see a lot of research,
        But what I don’t see is, anything that say planning for and observing something in your solution.
        I have to ask why is that?

        • Seeker,

          There is a long story about how I got to be at this place I search now. But for the most part I did a lot of planning before going out the first time. And the clue solves we’re easy for some but others it took something extra to understand them, and I will write more on that later. I’m at work now. But yes, if I gave you my general solution you might say why didn’t I think of that, I believe there are a few of us that have IMO.

          Bur

        • Seeker: “I don’t have a search area”.
          If you don’t play the lottery, maybe you shouldn’t be telling others how to possibly win it.

          • Jake,
            Not having a search area is not an indication that one is not playing the game. It is an indication of exactly what it states.

          • norsmamerican,
            Aren’t you the same person that said this?:
            “Guessing wont get you any closer to the treasure.”

          • I fear you misunderstand what you assume and assume what you don’t understand. But time is better spent doing other things.
            How is West Palm Beach?

          • Not having a search are before confidently solving the poem may not be a bad thing. Finding a search are and allowing confirmation bias to build confidence happens all to often.

          • Don’t worry so much about me Jake, I’m taking fenn’s advise. I’m not worried if I haven’t figured WWsH yet… apparently those who indicated the clues and were on sight [ with all the other clues abound ] know about as much as I do.

          • norsmamerican,
            You’re right. I don’t understand LOL.

            WPB is hot and humid for the next 3+ months and can see why most snow birds are gone now.

          • Seeker,
            You have been doing this way too long not to have a search area. Someone’s waiting to use the toilet…

          • Jake , you’re a subscriber get out and look.
            I subscribe to; if you don’t have WWsH nailed down, don’t go.

            I’m taking my time watching ya’ll have fun and learning what not to do… I’m here for the challenge, not the lure, and not an excuse to hit the mountains or deserts or the plains… How many trips did you take looking in water for the chest?
            Don’t get me wrong, it’s great to know of tens of thousands are out and about and not just at the tourist traps. Yet all I keep hearing is, how much ya learn on the way home, and next year is it… I don’t adhere to that learning curve.

          • Seeker,
            If you’re basing your theory on what not to do from the searchers here then you are missing 99% of all searchers ideas because this blog has less than 1%.

            I took a few trips looking in water and not in water and was able to eliminate vast amounts of areas without even searching but just being there and observing. Can you say that?

            I learned where I was at, not on the ride home. Better to learn something than nothing if you never put your foot in an area of interest. Just get of your carcass and break the ice.

            I’ve never said next year or this year is the year or it. I leave that to the other experts here that don’t learn their area is not where it is and don’t go back to the 1st clue.

            Your learning curve hasn’t moved from your computer.

          • I’m an avid believer of the fact that there is plenty hidden in the poem than can and needs to be solved to find the correct search area. So taking your time, listening to others failures and not ruling anything out, seems to be a completely logical idea. I would even go further and say that it makes a lot more sense to study the poem and try and find how fenn clues us into just what the correct wwwh is, because he certainly has done so, then it does to try and force your solve around some predetermined wwwh. Who’s really closer, someone who keeps making failed trips to a potentially wrong location or someone who takes in the surface clues and studies the poem? I can’t answer that, I have no clue who’s theory is right or wrong. But I certainly would argue that a cerebral person taking their time could definitely offer us some correct ideas for determining Fenn’s terminology, with or without a starting point.

          • Double a;

            I had an interesting experience this week-end. I had my WWWsH location, and have had it for about 40 months. An obscure definition of “in the wood” told me to look for a specific geographical feature in Wyoming. It was then pretty easy to find an appropriate WWWsH.

            I always felt a bit uneasy about this approach though.

            So, this week-end I reread TTOTC for the umpteenth time, but this time with the sole purpose of finding something in TTOTC that would describe or point me to my (a) WWWsH location. And, much to my surprise, I found it.

            Forrest had said to read the poem 6, 8, or ten times and then read TTOTC looking for hints that would help with the clues… or words similar. Well, it worked. I founf something in TTOTC that told me almost EXACTLY where to look, and then it described my WWWsH area to a tea – WHOOPEE!

            Try it, you might like the results. Have a specific goal in mind when you read TTOTC – Look for a SPECIFIC thing. Don’t just read TTOTC hoping that SOMETHING will jump out at you that will help with one of the nine clues. This approach has not worked well for me in the past, but this new approach sure seemed to work – WHOOPEE – JDA

          • JDA,
            Are you telling us you have a new WWWH area?
            Or what you found confirms the old?

          • Hi Jake;

            My “Big Picture Solve” covers an area of about 20 miles, and takes me to where I thought I would find Indulgence, but didn’t. I end up near my Water High spot at the blaze.

            My “Small Area Visual Solve” starts at my previous Water High spot, which now becomes my new WWWsH spot – Hope this is clear – JDA

          • Thanks JDA,
            So it’s a new WWWH smaller area and this new one is at the blaze of your old solve?

          • You let me know if you got it this time.
            Seems like you’re just moving or rearranging your clues around in your area.

            If I have a new WWWH spot, it will be many miles away from the one I have now but the one I have now is well known and some that arrived there are oblivious to the poem and I know Fenn holds this place dear to his heart and has been there many times.

        • Seeker: “I don’t believe we can figure out WWW’sH without a “location of all the clues” first and foremost. {which seems implied by fenn’s warning of certainty of the location beforehand… for the path to be direct}”.

          Based on the following comment from Forrest, it may be impossible to identify the “location of all the clues” prior to BOTG:

          Excerpt of Forrest’s answer to Q6.
          “It helps to know something about Rocky Mountain geography when making plans to search for my treasure. Rocking chair ideas can lead one to the first few clues, but a physical presence is needed to complete the solve. Google Earth cannot help with the last clue.”
          ( mysteriouswritings.com/six-questions-with-forrest-fenn-and-the-thrill-of-the-chase-treasure-hunt-double-charmed/ )

          IMO, we may not be able to locate the spot or area of the last clue – perhaps a good map is helpful – but we should know what type of natural(?) feature comprises the final clue, and that information should come from the poem.

          It’s not unreasonable to believe we can identify the location/area of each clue (with the possible exception of the last), but I don’t believe it’s possible to get them all correct without some number of BOTG excursions. IMO, solving the poem is an evolution of thought – a learning experience – and we learn best from our own experiences. It’s my belief there’s nothing like a good round or two with Nature, and the harsh reality thereof, to help adjust our Chase paradigm and allow that paradigm to evolve.

          The Chase is a series of an unknown number of intellectual steps, IMO, and the duration of those steps is shortened with BOTG. Each BOTG experience has the potential to hasten clarity – following a period of inevitable frustration, at least for me. Living closer to the search area would certainly be helpful and at least allow for more frequent BOTGs.

          (original) Joe

          • Joe,
            I think you misunderstood me.
            To clarify I was not talking about deciphering a clue or all clues… I think there’s was way to know where we need to be at to find the clues search area… before we even start deciphering clues.

          • Joe,
            I can absolutely relate to your last two paragraphs. Personally, I am of the belief this process outlines how the Chase will eventually be brought to an end. But if I’m hearing you right, then I can’t go along with your statement- “we may not be able to locate the spot or area of the last clue”. That would seem to contradict f’s “certainty of the location beforehand/path will be direct” comment. I’m not saying it can’t be figured out while botgs, but it also appears you should be able to take the experiences from previous bogt and formulate a beeline to the tc.

            Just sharing a little of what I’m growing…

          • Joe you make perfect sense. But in defense of seeker, the comment wasn’t how certain they were on which clue is which and how to proceed. It was more about the validity of credibility ion terms of others without having a starting point.

          • That was supposed to read… it was more about the validity of credibility in terms of helping others work the poem without having a starting point. And I will always contend that if you don’t have the chest, you don’t know one thing more than the rest of the lot, no matter how much your solve works in your own mind. And on that premise alone, the more the merrier and no one should be discouraged from input because someone who’s accomplished exactly nothing more than the next searcher has disagreed.

      • Hello JDA. I find it difficult comprehend that given the language in the PIBTHOB line that a veteran searcher such as yourself never considered that HOB might be found “looking ‘UP’ or in a distance”. Not saying that to pick on you, it just surprised me.

        • Bowmarc;

          The world is full of surprises isn’t it? For my “Big Picture Solve.” if I start at WWWsH, and take it in the canyon down, Not far but too far to walk… and am then to “Put in below the home of Brown…” For my solve, I was at ground level as I looked for my put-in place. I may have had to look slightly up, but not much.

          Now, for my “Small Area Visual Solve,” I am standing above the “Canyon down” and making a visual search. In the far distance is now my hoB, and I more-or-less have to look up at it, and then back down to my NPFTM etc.

          I had previously found what COULD have been a hoB closer in, and was still looking “Down Canyon” for it. This new hoB makes a lot more sense.

          Hope that this explains it a bit – JDA

          • Perspective is everything…. If the HOB is on a hilltop, and you are in the valley, you have to go up to get below the HOB.

          • You’re right Aaron. Below can be at the valley level, or even more ‘below’ than that. ‘Below’ isn’t much help unless you got the Hob.

          • Hi JDA,
            I hope that the altitude in your solve is still somewhere between 5,000 and 10,200 ft. Just checking.
            — MK

          • That is right OS2. Here are my top three ideas for below, in order of favorite to least favorite:

            1. downstream
            2. lower elevation
            3. south

            In any case, I feel like we do not need to physically be at HoB, just below it.

    • Seeker, the one fact we can’t avoid is that some have come within 200 to 500 feet of the chest and ‘possibly’ with just two clues. FF say this would be possible in the moby dickens interview I believe, that solving the first few clues will get one close to the treasure and possibly find it (more difficult) but doable. I will have to see that interview and find exactly what he said but it should be close to that.

      Is that the situation that is happening right now and why ff said last September that he was ‘surprised’ that it hasn’t been found? There are a few going to the ‘site’ of the first two clues and missing the mark by 200-500 feet. How do the last 5 to 7 clues play out in the field? Are they looking for a canyon down when they are already in the canyon? Do they all think that too far to walk could only mean a number of miles instead of a short distance away like 200 feet?

      Your suspicion of a lack of observation must be right, I don’t see another obstacle between one clue and the next other than interpretation and observation.

      • Hello Oz,

        Not disputing your facts just interested in knowing more about the, “ff said last September that he was ‘surprised’ that it hasn’t been found,” comment. Can you point to a source for that?

        I do not spend enough time on the blog(s) to benefit from these timely little nuggets and would not know how to search for that particular comment.

        Thanks for the reply!

    • Seeker, exactly. If he is at say the canyon down, it seems logical to think he is stopped there and observing. Standing there, looking up towards the path and beyond, he’s thinking it’s NFBTFTW, and also thinking that it’s hid, way out there, below the home of Brown. Back to reality, standing at the end of the canyon down, he then says from here. So, not needing a distance, just following a path, from there, (end of the canyon), you walk into a place that is not for the meek. Some type of border, gate, fence, whatever that splits the rest of your path from the canyon. This would be a third clue, needing BotG to actually see what it is, but will be obvious.
      Continue on , getting closer, maybe even walking parallel to a stream, creek, run-off, whatever, coming from a high water source. You then hit the 4th clue, the blaze and now you are close.
      Up to this point, IMO, no distances, just following a predetermined path.
      So basically, you started at a place, went into a nearby canyon, come up on something that separates the canyon and the rest of your path, and come to a physical thing, a blaze. 4 clues down, 5 close together to go.
      That is what makes perfect sense. NFBTFTW, and PIBTHOB, are more of an observation, future tense of what is to come. It’s why if you were at the hoB, you would go right to the chest, that’s why it is not a clue, IMO. Referring to “put in”, is referring to the chest, not the searchers next action.
      FTINPFTM, then does become a clue, the elusive third. It’s very easy to walk passed the other clues if you don’t know what it is you are looking for, or where you are going. Also, he doesn’t know for sure if a searcher has the 4th clue correct, the blaze. Leads to a searcher taking a picture of the area, sending to f, not really knowing where they are at. Only way f would not be sure. Since he knows the clue, any explanation of it would lead to a yes or no answer. The only possible is that he was sent a pic and the searcher didn’t quite have a grasp on the significance yet.
      As far as your idea of hoB being on a map, why don’t we just go to it, again, exactly. But the path is a one way thing, along the path are your clues. It all will be followed. So if going to hoB is like going right to the chest, it very well cannot be the third or forth clue at that time. So that is what leads to seeing at that point, he is making an observation. We will see a creek/run-off, we will head to a high water source, but again, observations.
      If having hoB being where the chest is, and also, the blaze being right there, that leaves a lot of room in the poem between these two points that seem to be right onto each other. We know the blaze is a clue, so where does that lead hoB? It leaves it as an observation at that point in the poem, and not a clue. Why would we need to put into anything if we are supposedly right at the chest? Makes no sense, and the poem has a lot of room in between line 8 and line 13.
      IMO, wwwh, the canyon down, no place for the meek, and the blaze equals the first 4 clues.
      We also need to remember that folks have not indicated, deciphered, or solved the first two clues. They just where there, not knowing. Not knowing to us means not knowing anything, not solving anything, and leads to walking right on by everything, no matter what direction they went.
      Lastly, once at the blaze, that is when clues would have to be more precise. Distances, directions, would then have to come into play. And, with saying the last clue is really the only one you need to solve, that would lead to having to solve for those two things. You know my take on that, it leads to there having to be some sort of number system. There has to be in the poem, number values of some kind. Something has to be figured out using numbers, or how could we get a distance? Just because searchers cannot find those number references in the poem, doesn’t mean they are not there. It is the only logical outcome. There must be a numbered system, and since we only have words and letters, then there must be letter values. If you do not have a system, there is no way to get an accurate distance, and no way you could be confident. Unless you are lying to yourself. Again, line 21 is a good example of just that very fact. If you can’t see in that line that there is a possibility of getting values for the letters “A” and “L”, then you need to open the mind and find those values within that line. You need to find that number system, or you will be just walking around, looking for what is not there. (not saying you Seeker, meaning you as a searcher).
      You again, bring up some very good points, where one solution needs to come to the for front and have an answer for all you have discussed. No matter how a searcher solves for the poem, this little thoughts need to be answered for, mainly, the distance question. Logically, we all know there comes a point, where we need a distance. Cannot feud that. Good write up Seeker…

  90. Seeker,

    “But what I don’t see is, anything that say planning for and observing something in your solution.
    I have to ask why is that?”

    Maybe the answer(s) lies here.

    I actually planned this search area while I was searching in another area a few years back, end of April 2015. After finding out I was at the wrong wwwh. My “word that is key” took me to another area. I found this out then when sitting in a bar having lunch and a beer and talking about the search to a cabbie when one of the patrons said she and her husband knew Fenn and had been around with him while he was at the place she lived then and I’m searching now. I showed her his picture and she said yes that was him and she knew him from his art gallery days originally, but that photo he looks older then when she last seen him. (By the way she did not know anything about him hiding the chest). We had a pretty good conversation that day. Anyway the next morning at the local coffee shop (free wifi) I researched that area for my word that is key, and low and behold it fit right at what I consider to be what a wwwh is in that area. So I pulled up a couple of maps and started looking around for other clue possibilities and found a couple of might be’s.

    After I got home and that day I researched more of this place and came up with about 4 clue solves I thought. I sent Forrest a email of my last search, as I always do, but also explained that I thought I was at the wrong wwwh and now considered this other place. I gave him my general thoughts of places that I had seen for this area but did not say they were clue solves. After that email I went to work on researching that area. Like I said I believed I had 4 clues solved- wwwh, canyon down, hoB, and npuyc I even told him of this area of my water high was. As it turned out my thoughts of some of the clue solves were not what I first thought. My put in place was the main trail head by wwwh and my heavy loads where boulders in the outskirts of water high. If it hadn’t been for a solo one day botg trip while visiting family and then coming across a “special trail”, I would have thought this area was wrong after this trip. But on my way back to my vehicle from “trying” to climb up to my heavy loads – boulders (Forrest could not have gone up there), I seen this trail going up and into the mountains so being a adventure some person I am I went up it, and glad I did. Boom!!! there was npuyc creek on the right of this trail as I went further, around the bend, all of the sudden I seen something on the left as I got closer I seen what is now my heavy loads and boy does it fit that clue. I kept following that trail up and it took me to my water high. I thought to myself I just confirmed the put in place, npftm, drawing nigh, heavy loads, and water high. Not bad for the time I had to search.

    There is more to my story and two other trips I made, one with my wife, and one recently solo, both which I have talked about here. The problem is Forrest blaze, maybe I have to many possibilities I’m checking out or I’m not understanding something that stand out, because they all do in my thought process.

    There are other factors about this place like comments in TTOTC book and Forrest ATF comments here and in interviews, that to me, helps confirm this area even more.
    I never felt more confident in a general solve, like with this one. Of course all I say can be taken with a grain of of salt and maybe just food for thought.

    Seeker, not sure if I answered your questions but for now that’s all I got.

    Good luck in finding a State and area to search again.

    Bur

    • Hi Bur;

      What an exciting find for you on your one day BotG. As the “A team leader used to say – Don’t ya’ just love it when a good plan comes together?” Even if it was not planned. “Love it when that happens.” Good luck, I hope that the remaining clues fall into place for ya’ JDA

      • Hi JDA,

        I’m stagnant for right now. The blaze has me mystified. I’m missing something that defines it more. As far as all the other clues, I believe I have them solved.

        I’m just giving my brain a rest since my search. Had to many ideas for a blaze. Hopefully when I go back to the poem and my search area in the photos I took, something will make itself clear.

        Thanks for the comment.

        Bur

        • Bur,
          It wasn’t until I listened to ‘How to be an artist’
          that I started thinking in abstract and viewing
          the poem like an a piece of abstract art .
          The woman he talks about was successful
          because she was willing to listen.
          The poem has 9 clues, each clue a blaze on the
          trail to the last clue. Collectively they are
          The Blaze. IMO we have to listen to find it,

        • Hi Bur;

          I am sure that you will be WISE when you make your choice as to your blaze. Good Luck – I’m rootin’ for Ya’ – JDA

        • Yes, that same blaze was screwing my solve for a couple of days when I started my chase, but as soon as I’ve nailed down the WWWH all the clues fit right in including the blaze.
          — MK

    • There is another logical pathway involving the first two clues that explains not only why searchers can “correctly” identify them but also leave the poem thereafter despite being so close to the treasure. Not coincidentally, this pathway 100% validates TLGFI ATF. Without giving too much of my formula away, I will comment that stanza #1 tells us how to read the poem and that the second clue is misunderstood as searchers focus on the spotlight of the line rather than looking at what is in the shadows, which is where the actual clue is. Analyzing and observing stanza #1, then applying its logic to the rest of the poem, IMO, has a lot in common with “The treasure is easy to find IF, and it is very difficult IF NOT.”

    • According to Fenn the book only gives you subtle hints about the clues, not the key to solve the poem. Sorry. But IMO you are barking at the wrong tree if you rely your solve based on the book.
      — MK

      • Well. MK – Until it is found, it is hard knowing who is barking up the wrong tree – Remember, that includes you, and me, and us all. Those “Subtle” hints that you refer to could be just what is needed to get you going in the right direction at the right time and place. Just sayin – JDA

      • MajinKing … A lot of searchers, it seems to me, are easily distracted by TTOTC (since they apparently have given up on the poem).

        Most searchers are not into “subtle hints”, as you (and Forrest) say. These searchers want garish, in-your-face, conspicuous clues that only they see (ha ha).

        Ken (in Texas) 🙂

      • MajinKing, What If, the hints were more important to the solve than the clues? If the clues were distributed in the poem the way of the youtube video “smarter every day” it might be impossible, or improbable that a red neck from Texas or IMHO a native New Mexican could ever have a chance to see the Forrest for the trees, I wish I had not told you one thing, but since I did, ask yourself WHAT IF?

        What if we understood the hints, you know like a child putting together a jig saw puzzle? Wht if we started with what we see in the Big Picture, the one our imagination tells us on the cover of the box that holds the pieces, first and foremost we find WHAT? In order to see that lets start with a rhyme of oder…can you see the outline of the Big Picture?

        I predict whoever solves this poem is using that method…but what does Mr Terrific know, I am just a little silhouette of a kid, a stick figure who has an upside down metal funnel for a hat, and Manfried the wonder dog, all these ideas, exist in one tiny little head. See you in the “funny papers” or is it revealed in the “funny books”? Not the poem.

        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DLMw_hoQoUw

        TT

      • I tend to agree with MajinKing here. Forrest said that he felt like an architect after writing up the poem; not the book. I find significance in that.

        • How about this. He said clues were not deliberately placed in the book to aid the searcher, but he was like an architect in writing the poem…. so…Was that the case because he wrote the poem to reference things that could hint to you in the book ?

          Then he is not wrong in saying he didn’t deliberately write hints in the book to aid the searcher.

        • (of a mixture or effect) delicately complex and understated.
          “subtle lighting”
          synonyms: understated, low-key, muted, toned down, subdued;

          Hints; inkling, suggestion, indication, indicator, sign, signal, pointer, intimation, insinuation, innuendo, mention, allusion, whisper, a word to the wise
          “he had given no hint that he was going to leave” Pointer, Guideline, Instructions.

          Tell me anyone who has a clue nailed down? Two perhaps a few more, but who may have given the clues in the incorrect order? Perhaps they have been close but no cigar. Or is it a Brown Teddy Bear we search for? No maybe the place where he lives in the forrest.

          TT

      • MajinKing,

        I don’t think I have seen anyone solving all the poem clues on what is written in the book or even those subtle hints your referring to. Now if you include the poem in the book then yes all the answers are there.

        I for one have used one of those hints (word that is key) to help narrow down the possibles of the first clue only, but understand it did not help with discribing what or where it is. As far as other hints I came across after I used only the poem clues and botg to locate their solves did I see other hints in the TTOTC book, but those hints had nothing to do with helping define clue solve answers. Those hints only hinted to places in the big picture area surrounding the clue solves areas.

        So to me, no hints in the book give you defined answers to the poem. Unless in it it tells you what the blaze actually is. That’s one clue I have yet to resolve.

        Thanks for your opinion and comments.

        Bur

      • From my experience with the clues in the poem and the hints in the book as related to the search area … first, you have to have a rather narrowed down search area … then, as you read the book, there will be words or phrases that will jump out at you as being strongly related to your search area. These hints would help confirm that you MAY be in the correct area, but not necessarily that you ARE in the correct area. The hints are valuable gems if they are correctly identified, but otherwise, if they are ‘imagined’ non-hints, they are just rocks, faux gemstones, that will bog down your chance of solving the riddle. The only way of knowing that you actually discovered the true hints is to … solve the riddle … which can only be validated by … retrieving the chest.

        I love a good mystery, and this one, because of all the twists and turns, is the best ever.

        Safety First … Always

        Lyzeebella

    • Rocky,

      I don’t have any of his books but I have acces to the TTOTC book where there’s a hint to the first clue in the poem. One thing I’ve come to know in his book TFTW there is a hint, if seen, that would help with a hint in the TTOTC book that helps with the first clue. Also in the preface of OUAW there is a hint that helps with the TFTW hint that helps with the TTOTC hint that helps with the first clue. Got it!!

      Boy Forrest is really trying to get searchers to get first clue down pat, Why’s that????? Lol

      Good luck,
      Rocky

      • Hi Bur,
        I think the reason why Fenn is emphasizing to nail down the first clue is that it is the EASIEST clue to nail down. I think he started his clue from the easiest location to find for everyone. I mentioned that I don’t have any of his books a couple of times before, and I only used 9 clues in his poem to find the end point and he blaze. IMO You don’t need “subtle” hints in his books.
        Also there are several confirmations given by Fenn himself that you can use t verify your solve along the way. To me the BIG picture was one of them.
        — MK

        • MK;

          I don’t know a thing, but if, as you say, the first clue is the EASIEST – everyone would be searching the same area, but they are not. I think that for YOU it might appear to be the EASIEST, but then again, you do not have Indulgence, so I would be cautious about making such a boast – but good luck – JDA

        • It could be the easiest clue and I think the second clue is also a given. I’m just chilling out watching the History Channel – Unidentified – new series right now is confirming what I already knew.

      • Hi Bur
        The books will help you find the blaze if you are
        Street smart and other clues.when you read the poem
        where do you start , first stanza right. Forrest throws us off by saying Begain it at wwwsh but where is this.By the time a lot of searcher figure this out it will be over.you have put time
        and money in this so far way not have the books.
        Beside some day they should be worth something.

        • They’re worth something now. I find the phrase “Main
          Street Cowboys” interesting. Y’all might be wondering why. As always, part of my opinion.

      • Good Morning Bur;

        I took your post as a challenge – to see if I could find your hint about a hint, about a hint that will help a searcher figure out the correct WWWsH. Well, I don’t want to publish my finds, but I do think that I was able to find your hints. What I found MAY not be what you had in mind, but these “hints” sure work for my location. Emali me, and we can compare notes – if you so desire. Thanks for the challenge – JDA

    • Michael;

      I would guess that the “conventional or common thinking” about the line would be – Hey, pay attention, what follows is important. Is that what Forrest is saying? Only he knows. What do you think it means?

      I think that the one line is not a complete thought or clue. It ends with a comma, and goes on to say, “Your effort will be worth the cold.” I find this portion of the complete sentence much more intriguing and interesting – JMO – JDA

      • For my part, I think the two ideas that form this line may be tied together in one solve location. I was addressing the first part alone. I have read opinions about sound, listening, instruction… and wondered if there was any consensus around these various ideas?

        • So, let’s look at the second half – “You effort will be worth the cold.” What kind of effort is involved? Physical effort or mental effort, or both? And, why “Cold” – besides needing a word to rhyme with wood – or is it the other way? Wood is there because he needed a word to rhyme with cold???

          I think that it is both mental and physical. To get to the last stanza of the poem – solving all of the clues consecutively has taken a BUNCH of mental effort.

          Will it take physical effort to actually find (and retrieve) Indulgence? I guess that that has yet to be determined.

          By using the word “effort” is Forrest telling us that some physical action will be necessary to actually find and retrieve Indulgence? I think that we can not discount that possibility.

          Will this physical effort/activity involve getting cold somehow? I think maybe so. In a cold place? In a shadowed place? In a “wet” place? All possible I think. JMHO – JDA

          • Hi JDA,

            Undoubtedly, a lot of effort has and will be expended in the search. I think cold was to rhyme with gold but moreover is significant of a location rather than a physical state or temperature. Once again, I am reading directions and locations rather than physical conditions, which may be the incorrect approach. Won’t know until I get in there.

          • You caught me – I meant cold and gold rhyming. I had just read a previous post about good and wood rhyming, and my mind slipped gears – sorry. JDA

          • Hey JDA,- “Will it take physical effortto actually find(and retrieve) Indulgence?” And- “By using the word “effort” is Forrest telling us that some physical action will be necessary to actually find and retrieve Indulgence?”

            Somewhere along the line f said ‘it won’t be a big job to get it if you find it'(also see: “Safety First”). But when you consider what he’s accomplished in his life, what may be ‘not a big job’ to him… seems a monumental task to us!

        • I didn’t mean to catch you, JDA. I was just commenting. I’m not about catching folks up. I figured as much and should not have mentioned it. My apologies.

          • bold, old, cold, and gold

            this reminds me of pvery b1b and a Bad Boyz left ear of c or n together with a coB at hoB for a joB, do not roB. Johnny B Good Or Ami lol

    • Michael – Where the poem is concerned, I don’t think that there is much conventional or common thinking about anything at all. And if there is, running in the opposite direction of it could very well be the best course!

      But to me, the most significant thing about this line is that it ends with the word “good” instead of “well”, and I think that the reason for this is so that Forrest had a word that rhymed with “wood”, which I think could be an important clue. Just my 2 cents!

      • Yes, good. It hearkens to True Grit, which I’ve heard proposed here previously as well as many auditory theories. What’s your take on this?

          • Michael – Yes sir, that’s my thought anyway. Forrest has made some ATF comments that also seem to indicate that the hidey spot is in a forested setting, but this line is the only bit in the poem itself that gives out that information, IMO.

            “In the wood” could also be the same place referred to in the beginning line “As I have gone alone in there”.

          • I would add that I think wood refers to a location on a map, wooded or otherwise, and does connect to gone alone in there.

      • Hi Blex;

        I agree with you that “wood” is an important clue. If I close my eyes and take a mental journey through the poem, and a mental journey of the trip I take (The mental map I follow) to get to Indulgence here are the waypoints

        WWWH
        Canyon Down
        hoB
        No place for the meek
        The END place
        NPUYC
        HL n WH
        Blaze
        TS n MG
        Go tired n Leave Weak
        Listen
        Cold
        Brave
        Wood

        Yes, there are more than 9 “Way Points” – But these 14 “Way Points” I see as the most critical in finding Indulgence. They are all on my “mental Map”, and places that I must physically go to, or actions that I need to take in order to find Indulgence – JMO – JDA

        • I’ll take the opposite view that the line “So, hear me all and listen good” and what comes after are not clues. One reason is because of the contiguous/consecutive factor.

          • Depends on what you think the contiguous/consecutive clues are. For me, they are C/C – JDA

          • Yes, that is one reason why I believe they aren’t clues. Also, it depends on your definition of continuous and contiguous.

          • Here are my 9 C/C clues

            #1 – BIWWWH, ATIITCD – NFBTFTW
            #2 – PIBTHOB
            #3 – FTINPFTM – TEIEDN
            #4 – TBNPUYC – JHLAYH
            #5 – All of Stanza #4
            #6 – SYISTIMG – ALMTFATS
            #7 – TAIAK – IDITANIW
            #8 – SHEMALG – YEWBWTC
            #9 – IYABAITW – IGYTTTG

            Just how it breaks down for me. Stanza #1 is a prelude. All clues are C/C – JDA

            Notice that Clue #1 contains an alliteration – WWW
            and that the last clue also contains an Alliteration – TTT – May mean nothing, but I find it interesting – JDA

          • JDA, but I thought you use some words (“in the wood”) in your clue 9 to help steer you to your wwwh?

            I’m confused, maybe you’ve changed things.

          • F.D.

            Yes, I use the words “in the wood”as both a hint and a clue.

            Just because these words help lead me to my WWWH (as a hint) does not keep those same words from being a clue later – Clue #9.

            Yes, at one time I thought that the Clues were in stanza’s 2 – 4, and the hints were in stanzas 1, 5 & 6, but I changed after last years winter break.

            Sorry for the confusion. JDA

          • F’s definitions of what a clue does for us and what a hint does for us would invalidate, for me, the ability of three words in the poem acting as a clue and a hint. Consecutive issues to me too.

          • I think we shouldn’t try defining/itemizing clues or
            hints. Doing that is just some kind of distracting
            “rabbit hole”. As always, in my opinion.

          • JDA,
            You keep changing the clues in the poem but not your area and makes me wonder if your molding the poem to your spot.

          • Tall Andrew, you said this…”I think we shouldn’t try defining/itemizing clues or
            hints. Doing that is just some kind of distracting
            “rabbit hole”. As always, in my opinion.”

            I agree that we shouldn’t change f’s definitions for what is a clue and what is a hint. But, I believe we should absolutely be focused on the differences about how those two terms help us. They are the basis for everything else that follows in the Chase.

            Since f has always defined a clue and a hint as two different things, then with reasoning, one can say there’s no way one (a clue) can act as a clue and a hint. By f’s definition, it has to be one or the other…not both.

            Similarly, since f’s definition of a clue is something that gets us closer to the treasure (paraphrased) and the clues are consecutive, I see no way that clue nine, or a part of clue nine, can help with figuring out clue one.

          • FD… Not disputing what your point is at all because I agree to a point. Don’t you still find it interesting or at least odd/noteworthy that Fenn has interchanged his own definitions in that regard? For example; Today show *clues* as well as many other comments.

          • Forrest sometimes interchanges Clues and Hints. Here is an example: 3Q) In your memoir, The Thrill of the Chase, after the poem, you mention there are subtle clues sprinkled throughout that book. You have said you hadn’t deliberately placed these subtle hints in your book; but have you done so in any of your other writings mentioned in Question two (scrapbooks, vignettes, etc)? Or, even if maybe not purposely sprinkled in those writings of Q2, would you consider some of those to contain subtle hints too, like in The Thrill of the Chase?
            I don’t want to broaden the clues and hints I’ve written about by pointing them out. What surprises me a little is that nobody to my uncertain knowledge has analyzed one important possibility related to the winning solve.” JDA
            .

          • Ken, yes, I agree that f has used clues outside the poem and book in the examples you gave.

            Yep, just focusing on the clues/hints/subtle clues talk from f about the poem and ttotc book.

          • JDA, I don’t see where f interchanged clues and hints in his reply. Might need the year or link of that question to better understand it as the question itself interchanges the two words.

            I do understand that f early on used the terms subtle clues and seemed to have changed that to the word hint later on. I don’t see that as a big deal. Seems to provide more clarity.

        • Hi, JDA – Your waypoints make perfect sense to me, though I personally consider everything that comes after mention of the blaze in the poem to be more of an accessory clue describing the general location rather than a specific travel waypoint.

          There really are only two elements in the poem that I see as describing elements of distance between waypoints: NFBTFTW & TEIDEN.

          Boiled down, IMO these two lines seem to tell me that WWWH is a good amount of distance away from below hoB, and that below hoB is not all that far away from the hidey spot. Or, another way to say the same thing, you could easily walk to the hidey spot from below hoB, but not from below hoB to WWWH.

          • Hi Blex;

            In my “Big Picture Solve” or “General Area Solve” – It is about 10 miles from my WWWsH to my Put in Place below hoB. It is also about 10 miles from my Put in Place below hoB to my blaze.

            For my “Small Area Visual Solve” All of the clues (except one) are within a 500′ circle, and this one exception can be seen from a spot within that 500′ circle. JDA

          • Hi, JDA –

            I remember you had mentioned your large-scale/small-scale idea earlier. I can’t remember; did you share what inspired you to start thinking about running through the poem twice to solve it in this manner?

            The only thing that I can immediately think of is the double-omega and the implied 2 endings in its symbolic meaning, which I could see as having 2 endings means running through the poem twice. But is that anywhere close to correct, or did you get the idea from somewhere else? Just curious, and no worries if that’s something you do not wish to share.

          • Hi Blex;

            Good Question.

            When I completed my General or Big Picture solve, I felt that I had followed the poem precisely. Everything worked perfectly. The only problem I found with the solve was that I had not found Indulgence. I went through the solve with a fine toothed comb, and could find no errors in logic or design. What was I to do now? If everything was perfect up to the final place I stood, what could I change or correct? The simple answer was nothing.

            Winter recess – 2018/2019 was here. Back to the poem, the books, the ATF’s and the blogs.

            Seeker talked about a visual – small area solve. It began to make sense. What would happen if I stood at my Water High/Blaze location and “Took in” the landscape in front of me. What would I see? Much to my surprise, I began to see every element of the poem. My Water high spot became my WWWsH.
            I could look down a canyon, and then on to a hoB. I then saw a NPFTM and then up to HL n WH spots.
            I saw my Blaze, but now I noticed something new about it that confirmed it was the correct Blaze.

            For the first time in my solve, I must now leave my WWWsH spot and go to my Blaze. I have not yet done a BotG search to confirm that – at last – I have it correct – but maybe that will happen soon.

            Thanks for the question. Simple answer – A GOOD Big Picture Solve, but not the CORRECT solve. Thanks to a suggestion by Seeker, I tried something a bit different. Thanks Seeker – Let’s hope your idea works – JDA

          • JDA,

            Both your large and small scales solutions are in the same area, correct?
            You get to this area by means that you believe WWsH is at. You have 20 miles involved with one, and some 500′ with another. You have gone on searches over 20 times of this area.. with one solve having 9 repeated same clues [ or up to 81 points involved ]

            Just out of curiosity, have you never truly considered your WWsH reference to be wrong? [ at one time you had 9 of them, right? ]
            Isn’t this the same as manufacturing later clues to fit your first clue… vs… manufacturing the first clue because of the other place [later clues ] seem to fit?

            Well, there is another option… are you reading the poem’s intended ‘process’ correctly? All I see is stomping point to point [ even in the small scale version ].

            WhatIF a stomping mode search is the wrong way to go? You could search the same area [correct area presumably] thousands of time, [with correct references of places involved] yet never end up ‘discovering’ the blaze, walking all around the clue’s references.

          • JDA,

            We posted almost at the same time…
            I see you trying a different process now. However, Your last part is bugging me. You said you found your blaze [assuming you mean you found the same blaze from a previous search] IF so, what makes you think the outcome will be different from the first time you found this blaze?
            I’d lay odds you’ll still be disappointed in the results… you are using the same blaze as before. Right?
            Or did i read that wrong?

          • Hi Seeker;

            Thanks for your posts. How can I answer your question without giving too much away? Yes, I had a Blaze in my “Big Picture Solve.” I use the same blaze in my “Small Area Visual Solve.” BUT, you may have seen a post I made a couple of days ago – My BIG blaze or my small blaze?. The blaze mentioned above is my BIG blaze. I, very much, expect to find a “small” blaze once I “Look quickly down”. Finding this “small” blaze will tell me EXACTLY where Indulgence rests.

            Am I using the “Blaze clue” twice? Well no, I am using the “Tarry Scant with marvel gaze” clue to spot the “small” blaze. I expect that there will be a “blaze” or marking on a “Small Tarry” scant. Hope this helps

            Thanks for your idea of a “Small Area Visual Solve.” – JDA

          • JDA,

            Twin blazes so to speak?

            I have to ask; assuming you’re standing at your larger blaze form your large solve, you now spot a smaller blaze from your smaller solve. Why didn’t you see it the first time ?[the smaller blaze].

            If look quickly down was still used in the first larger solve… you must of looked around, right? How far apart are these two blazes?

          • Thanks for sharing, JDA. It sounds like it’s going to be an exciting search season for you and your team this year!

            The aspect of the small-scale portion of the solve that particularly interests me is how NFBTFTW fits in. I guess in the small-scale sense, it could be manifested as some sort of physical barrier blocking a direct walk between waypoints (like a cliff or ravine), rather than a great amount of distance?

            How soon until you will get to test out your idea with BOTG? I’m still a few weeks out on the first BOTG this season myself, but not too much longer of a wait! 🙂

          • Blex,

            You asked JDA about how NF, BTFTW might work in his solve.
            Might I suggest reading the line in two parts.
            Not Far… what is not far? what kinda of distance? if there a distance need? or will the distance resent itself?
            But here’s the catch;
            But too far to walk.
            This part seems to imply; don’t walk.
            This part might be the critical understand of how the poem is understood. IF we don’t walk someplace… “take it in” has a whole new idea as; viewing vs. stomping.

            I think “And take it in the canyon down” is not so much a place, but a direction to look in.
            Think of it like this… you’re stand at a spot and you have a 360 veiw of the area. To be told to look at something [ a “canyon” ] your view is now half. IF told “down” you have two choices, [ lets say the canyon runs N and S directions ].
            Down can be in elevation or down can be south on a map. { lets just go with the map version } Now we have an area 1/4 size of what we started with, by using the words in the poem. But we haven’t moved an inch, right?

            Well, what’s next? we seem to need a reference for hoB. So, hoB could be within this 1/4 view size location. The line ATITCD and NF,BTFTW might not be nothing more than to see /locate hoB in a certain spot… a needed spot.

            But here’s a question… what would you do next in this scenario?

          • Seeker, I like the idea of “take it in” possibly meaning take in the view. I think that if this “it” is something tangible that we should pay attention to though then this is what we would be taking in.

            I recall that FF signed one persons TFTW book by saying “But not to far to run”. This is funny though because a person can walk further than they can run without tiring out. A river or stream can run though too.

          • Aaron,

            I whole heartily agree about … run.

            Here’s my problem. Many have used just that idea of following a water way. I would only assume, some of the earlier searchers did the same. { this idea has been talked about before 2013.}

            IF correct; why didn’t folks get three [the first 3 clues in consecutive order] correct-?- instead of only the first two.

          • I guess that depends on what the 3rd clue is. If it is PIBHOB, then they are going past where they should be putting in. Searchers went straight to a HoB in the area that they were immediately drawn to. This is either a faux HoB or they didn’t find the right put in spot below it. The spot connected to NPFTM.

          • Seeker and Blex;

            Thanks Seeker for answering for me – Ya’ got it about right.

            Seeker you ask: “I have to ask; assuming you’re standing at your larger blaze form your large solve, you now spot a smaller blaze from your smaller solve. Why didn’t you see it the first time ?[the smaller blaze].

            If look quickly down was still used in the first larger solve… you must of looked around, right? How far apart are these two blazes?

            Simple answer I messed up. Instead of looking DIRECTLY down during my Big Picture solve, I looked about 75′ away – My Boo Boo. I now look DIRECTLY down.

            Q: How far apart are these two blazes – 75′ more or less.

            How far is Indulgence from my big blaze? No more than 35′.

            Blex – you ask: “how NFBTFTW fits in. I guess in the small-scale sense, it could be manifested as some sort of physical barrier blocking a direct walk between waypoints (like a cliff or ravine), rather than a great amount of distance?”

            Seeker answered it quite well when he said: “But too far to walk.
            This part seems to imply; don’t walk.
            This part might be the critical understand of how the poem is understood. IF we don’t walk someplace… “take it in” has a whole new idea as; viewing vs. stomping.” – Also, as I have stated before “far” can have the meanings of “Deadly” and “Dangerous.” So, “Not deadly, but too dangerous to walk,” – Yes, there are a few obsticles that one might want to avoid – thus, a visual search.

            How soon until I get to try out my solve? Depends on my search team – so not absolutely sure as of today. – Thanks for your questions Seeker and Blex – JDA

          • Aaron,

            Sure, sure, But that would be a big IF, if ATIITCD NF,BTFTW was a single clue, meaning one thing.

            Try reading the poem as; {just for fun} And take it in the canyon down but [ but to mean ‘only’ in the same manner ] too far to walk.
            The commas add a second thought of Not Far. The only way to understand “Not Far” would be to see just how Far it is, right?
            We don’t really have a defined distance, so why do we create one out of thin air?

            I said it before, it would not surprise me folks have figured out hoB or at the very least, been at it… they just don’t understand the previous line [or in this case, the third clue] Without the third clue correctly deciphered… imo the left the poem. And later clues deciphered for their references [up to discovering the blaze] are wrong to the process, not the references.
            Does that make sense?

            I think most of the clues references can be deciphered [ even prior to a search ].
            It’s how searchers proceed with those clues might have been wrong, idea, process, execution.

          • That is very possible to Seeker and would fit along with FF’s quotes about clues out of order. While I of course like my idea more, I’m open to whatever will get me to NPFTM and will keep yours in mind 😉

          • @ Seeker – We have discussed whether or not the first sentence of stanza #2 was one clue or contained more than one before. I believe the first time was back when I started posting about “The Poem as Nine Sentences” and most recently just above in this very thread (BTW, still waiting on a response to that one—See June 7th post).

            Back then I thought “BIWWWH” was it’s own clue because when FF revealed such, all he mentioned specifically was “BIWWWH” and not the rest, which we debated for a bit. Now I think the whole sentence makes up clue #1, as you were arguing/debating back then. Seems we have come full circle. LOL

          • Bowmarc,

            It still is one clue… the only difference might be, how we proceed in understanding what the clue is for.
            IF we think of this as a starting line and a race to the finish line… we travel those points in between.
            IF we think it’s a place where the entire poem plays out. Those other places are utilized.

            Either process could be correct, only many have tried the footrace idea, right?
            Here’s the kicker. IF a footrace, why can I cheat and start ahead of everyone else??? The concept of that idea has led to fenn being asked many many times; did he follow the clues or took a short cut. LOL even when he finally states he followed the clues [ he started at the starting line ] he seemed to imply he followed the clues before the poem was complete [completed?]

            What did he need to do for the poem to be complete? [as we understand, might have been written 10 or more years prior to the action of hiding the chest.]

            My only conclusion is; he had to find a blaze himself. He made the clues work IN the area he knew well, and used his own created clues to ‘find’ a blaze to hide the chest at or near… for searchers later to discover it… if they follow the clues as told to.
            SO, if an 80 year old is not going down a canyon, back up and down again, why would I?

          • Aaron,

            I’m gonna throw a monkey wrench into the grinder. WhatIF stanza 3 is not about places to go or even places as features in the landscape, but instruction to [even when] figure out how to find the blaze?

          • Ken,
            What’s your point?

            We know the first clue is that line. However, if the line telling us to do something?
            It could have read; begin where warm waters halt. Only fenn stated Begin IT where…
            IT in my mind can be two things… a movement as stomping point to point, or begin “observing”. LOL for now, I’ll call that a word that is key, line of thinking.

            Begin observing from the first clue.
            There’s nothing in this poem that tell me without a doubt, I have to move away from WWsH. Take it in, can mean by phrase definition; look
            NF,BTFTW does not give any distance of travel, so readers make up what they want to work. Only I see; Not far way, but you don’t need to walk there…
            Many readers want “put in” as if it was a nautical type of movement. “Put in” ;to spend a particular amount of time doing something.. Hmm Time for what? Observing?
            IMO HoB works more like a pointer, than a place to go to. So, if we knew what hoB is we’d go right to the chest… I’m changing that as to “the blaze” as well.

          • Remember back on 11/02/13, The Moby Dickens Bookshop interview, He had some what of a tongue slip at around the 52:53 mark. When he was asked why the phrase “too far to walk” is so important. His reply;
            I didn’t say it was too far….err important.
            Just that slip of the tongue makes it possible that line is not meant to be read as just too far to walk, so don’t. It could imply that is exactly what you do, Walk.
            And, with the ATF, “if you are walking long distances looking for the treasure, you are walking too far, pretty much defines what ‘too far” is, and that we have a long distance to walk. We can basically switch out what f is saying, since he did define it, to read, not far but long distances to walk.

          • Seeker, I do believe it is quite possible to be standing in the NPFTM area after putting in and see the remainder of stanza 3. Or maybe the next two lines anyway used as directions toward the blaze. I don’t know how big the blaze is and if you would be able to see it at NPFTM.

          • Seeker & JDA – I guess I’m thinking about the poem in a similar way as you are, but instead of being in the area and taking in the views on site to get from WWWH to hoB, I’m thinking more of studying a map instead in advance.

            So to answer your question from a bit up, Seeker “What do you do next in this scenario?” My answer is: get out to below the home of Brown and start stomping (as you like to say)!

            In my opinion, the whole section of getting one from WWWH to hoB is done on a map (because that’s just too far to walk). Below hoB is your put-in point, so whether you can park your car there, land a boat there, or have to hike out to it from somewhere else, then that’s where you need to physically get to and from then on it’s just a matter of hiking from there to the blaze. I could be wrong, but I’m not seeing a necessity to make it more complicated than that.

            I should also mention that just because I think the physical traveling should start from below the hoB, I think more of the poem beyond hoB can still be followed by studying a map before BOTG. As always, all IMHO.

          • Blex ~ ‘ “What do you do next in this scenario?” My answer is: get out to below the home of Brown and start stomping (as you like to say)!’

            Exactly my point. I would gather most, if not all, would and/or have done just that.

            WhatIF, hoB is pointer? or a tool for aligning two points. If you look at the idea with way, would you leave WWsH?

            “Put in” ; to spend a particular amount of time doing something..
            [Hmm, time for what? Observing?]

            “Take it in” : include or encompass something… *fully understand* or absorb something heard or *seen.*

            “Follow”: keep track of; trace the movement or direction of. [something]

          • Seeker – I won’t rule out a thought process like that. It also reminds me of Forrest’s quote about making “all the lines cross in the right spot”. Certainly an idea for everyone to keep in mind.

  91. @ Seeker –

    I agree, the entire BIWWWH sentence is a single clue.

    As to your IF’s, I think it is a combination of a third unmentioned IF possibility with your second IF statement. I believe FF when he says (paraphrased) that there is only one way to his knowlege, hence no shortcuts, to finding/retrieving Indulgence.

    For the poem to be complete, I think he needed to hide Indulgence, then he had all the right ingredients to bake his cake (finish the poem).

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