The Poem…Part Six

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This page is for discussion of Forrest’s poem. Please use it for only that discussion.

Here is Forrest reading his poem, The Thrill of the Chase. If you have not memorized the poem…don’t be concerned…neither has Forrest apparently…
https://dalneitzel.com/video/audio/poem.mp3

 

287 thoughts on “The Poem…Part Six

  1. Perhaps Mr. Fenn didn’t write the poem. He just wrote it down….therefore, he wrote the poem. Could I be as bold to suggest it’s anothers words put to pen by Mr.Fenn? ( The Moving Finger writes; and, having writ, etc. )

      • I do not feel this is the case. I know any one of us can have quite similar thoughts or words, but doesn’t mean they came from someone else. Hope I was able to explain my thoughts correctly.

        • Plagiarism covers things that have been previously printed, not the spoken word. There is no attorney or cleric privilege in this case so it is theoretically possible that someone besides Mr. Fenn dictated the words. No different than a reporter or court clerk typing out a speech verbatim.

          • I’ll elaborate. It has always been my contention that Mr. Fenn didn’t do this alone. Two can keep a secret if one of them is dead. Two CAN keep a secret….they’ve been keeping it for many years. Pious indulgence.

          • Your thoughts are his poem are someone else’s words, but he wrote them down as his own? How does this explain how he said he chose his words wisely (paraphrasing)? Perhaps I’m misunderstanding what you are saying.

        • I’m pretty sure he wrote the poem himself. Remember: he hid the treasure, Then wrote the
          poem. Not the other way around.
          I don’t think he robbed someone elses words or had any help.
          I wrote a poem in the 4th grade. It’s not that complicated 🙂

          • Or it could be a place he had never been to until he actually hid the treasure.
            From “Forrest Gets Mail From a Middle School Class”:
            Q: When was the first time you went to the place where you hid the treasure?
            A: I don’t want to answer that question. It is more of a clue than I want to give.
            If the actual EXACT spot was never visited until he actually hid the TC and the area (wilderness, state, etc) is his favorite place in the world, then that would explain him never being there until actually hiding it. If he had actually visited that EXACT spot when he was young, what would have been the harm with him saying that he went there or found the spot many, many years ago?

        • ok pdenver, then please explain to me at least what f meant by “I could have wrote the poem before I hid the treasure chest, but I didn’t.”
          Forrest has claimed numerous time and again that he put 15 years into this poem. That’s not what that statement is saying.
          Timothy…IMHO

          • To defend pdenver somewhat, I do believe they are possibly on to something. Fenn has stated that two can keep a secret is one of them is dead. And if we are to believe Tom Terrific (which I personally have no reason to doubt) when he stated, “…..Forrest told them “His father would know where he hid the treasure.”,” then I believe it may be his own father that Forrest is referring to. Perhaps it was his own father who had the idea of where and how to hide the TC. I do believe that Forrest did write the poem in his own words that took him 15 years to twist and turn. But wasn’t Forrest also disappointed at how little is remembered of his father? Maybe this is Forrest’s way of drawing attention to Marvin. And maybe most of us have been looking and trying to find out as much as we can about the wrong person. Who exactly was Marvin Fenn and what did he do and what did he possibly write?
            “As I have gone alone in there….”
            Is the “I” Marvin who went alone into his grave?
            Just a little different line of thought…..

          • Thank you, KP. I didn’t realize other comments had been made until your post.

            Hello Timothy. The quote, ‘I could have wrote the poem before I hid the treasure chest, but I didn’t.,’ has been a little bit of a mystery to me. As I sit here and think about it, I tend to believe what he has always said in the past; that he knew where he wanted to place the treasure chest (paraphrasing). He’s been there before.

          • (Second try.) ‘ “I could have wrote the poem before I hid the treasure chest, but I didn’t.” ‘ We’ve heard him state that he’s always known where to hide the treasure chest. This quote may be to say just that. He could have written the poem first, because he knew of the place, because he’s already been there. Hope this makes sense.

          • In my original post that didn’t go through, I tried commenting how that particular quote was a bit confusing to me. Did he hide the treasure chest, and then write the poem? Not sure. I thought I’ve read that his friends had seen it a month(s) before the book was published. Perhaps someone will correct me if I’m wrong.

          • Or it could be a place he had never been to until he actually hid the treasure.
            From “Forrest Gets Mail From a Middle School Class”:
            Q: When was the first time you went to the place where you hid the treasure?
            A: I don’t want to answer that question. It is more of a clue than I want to give.
            If the actual EXACT spot was never visited until he actually hid the TC and the area (wilderness, state, etc) is his favorite place in the world, then that would explain him never being there until actually hiding it. If he had actually visited that EXACT spot when he was young, what would have been the harm with him saying that he went there or found the spot many, many years ago?

          • Hi KP/Kevin!

            I agree with your line of thinking about not needing to doubt what Tom Terrific said, and that Forrest was referring to his own father as someone who would know the treasure location. However, I don’t think you need to do any further research into information about Marvin Fenn other than what Forrest writes about him already in “Thrill of the Chase” (Forrest also gave us a heads up at the end of TOTC that trying to find information about his father on the internet is a somewhat fruitless effort).

            I also don’t believe that going down this rabbit hole is a good direction to start off with if you haven’t already gotten a good solve based on the poem, IMO.

          • Kevin: ‘Or it could be a place he had never been to until he actually hid the treasure.’

            Mr. Fenn during Moby Dickens book signing: ‘I decided I knew where I was going to hide the chest.’

          • Kevin, in regards to the example you gave between the children in school and Mr. Fenn’s response, I’d like to offer a thought to you. If he had responded that the first time he had gone to this place, he was a young child, or a teenager, where would you start looking? Wouldn’t that be too much of a clue?

  2. I like the part about two can keep a secret if one is dead… I’ve often thought, someone else knows his spot…. but they are all dead.

    So its his secret.

    Its his poem. he wouldn’t be so possessive if he didn’t write it. ‘Don’t mess with my poem.’

    He likely reads it on video, so as not to add any unwanted inflection, or make an embarrassing mistake. And… if you watch him read it, it looks to me like he is hardly looking at the words, its just something to focus on. IMO

    • I’m pretty sure his dad and probably the rest of the family knew about the secret spot. I believe it was one of the places they used to hide their fishing gear.

  3. Kedar’s mom–

    Actually, it’s “if you’ve been wise and found the blaze”. When referring to being brave it is present tense: “If you ARE brave and in the wood”.

      • Oh, I see what you’re saying. He does say “if you’ve been brave”—but the printed poem (in many different locations) has it in present tense. So it’s clear that we know the answer—I mean, answers. 🙂

    • Hey kadar’s mom
      That’s because in that statement the person who found the TC has not left the location yet. As a builder the word “wood” changes it’s meaning from the word “woods” meaning the original wood ia a finished piece of wood not a tree.
      Just something to think about
      Timothy…IMHO

    • Hey kadar’s mom
      That’s because in that statement the person who found the TC has not left the location yet. As a builder the word “wood” changes it’s meaning from the word “woods” meaning the original wood is a finished piece of wood not a tree.
      Just something to think about
      Timothy…IMHO

    • This is part of my premise that the poem should not be “messed” with. “Straight forward”… “….I wasn’t playing any games…” is less ambiguous than “Don’t mess with my poem” if taken in context with how these statements were offered. To me…they are both synonymous. It is understood that many writers and poets often hid messages in their works for various reasons. I cannot recall ever being instructed to read them other than presented. In Fenn’s case his poem is a map with nine clues that leads to a treasure…and the reader is challenged to decipher his meaning from beginning to end.
      I have never started reading a book in another place other than the beginning…nor has it occurred to me to do that with a poem. When reading either…poem or book…I want to get the full story or meaning without corrupting it before I even start. Perhaps Fenn has introduced the Chase to promote an alternative procedure to reading and understanding the mysteries of script and prose ? The ills that plague society are already out of skew…I don’t think Fenn wants to add to that. Just another searcher that wants to figure this out…without making it my story.

      • Ken,
        You never read a story that started at the end [of the story], and worked it’s way back though the plot and finished where the story started, at the end?

        It’s not about “starting to read” the poem from stanza 5 or 6 or 2…
        You’re only looking at the technical aspect of reading English. But ya might be missing the imagination aspect. Which is one aspect of poems, the need to be interpreted.

        It’s about, after reading the poem from top to bottom and left to right… one might see that the beginning of the first word, in the first line, of the first stanza, might not be where it all begins. Nor does “Begin it where” must be in present tense. It could be just another way of saying ‘once upon a time’

        It changes nothing within the poem, no words, phrases, lines, and yes, no stanzas or format changes. It only changes the understand of how the story, or in this case the poem, is understood.

        In this case…
        Knowledge; knowing how to read.
        Poem; imagination, interpretation.

        • Seeker…you and I could go on and on until the cows fell over. My above comment was not about the stories/poems I have read…nor the reasons why/or how I dissected them to learn the meaning. It was about the basic fundamentals of first reading something correctly in order. Your attempts to blow holes in my theory sheds light on the problem at hand. Everyone interprets things differently…and that is just how life is. My opinion is that you have skipped over some basic steps and headed right to the operating room…just don’t take the leg off because you have a headache.
          I say…my opinion…read the poem in order and understand that first…
          You can say whatever you want …but don’t imply that I do not know how to read just because my method doesn’t jive with your…”Its about…” or Knowledge; knowing how to read etc.
          Carry on…and have a wonderful day Seeker…maybe Loco is right…too much line out .

          • Ok, maybe this will help… because, all this is, is a discussion of different opinions, and I’m not sure if I’m getting my point out as clear as I like it to be…

            Look at it this way;
            We are given a list of materials. {stanza 1 2 3 4} But we don’t know where to ‘start’ to place the first piece {clue} or even why it needs to be where it supposed to go.

            Stanza 5, gives a question that has been ‘answered’.. the summation of where to start with the pieces, and why.

            Now we have a ‘starting point’ to Begin with the correct first piece…

            I think the main problem has been, imo, we are thinking the first “clue” is the starting point. But it might be only the first piece of all the piece. The starting point tells us where to put the pieces together.

            No guessing, no dart tossing… no messing with the poem. Simply a possibility of analyzing what we have.

          • Seeker…I understand perfectly what you are trying to say. I just do not see it that way. That methodology implies that stanza five has been deciphered (gives a question that has been answered…the summation of where to start with the pieces, and why.). Really? Are you certain of that? Last I knew… no searchers have made it that far.
            I will say again…I believe that the first clue is in the first stanza and that without that…there is very little chance that anyone will knowingly make it past the first two or three clues.
            If you don’t have the first clue nailed down…
            My “Army men” just complained about not being fed and they have sand in their eyes…gotta go!

  4. If “You’ve been” brave and in the wood I give u title to the gold. Well Forrest I have been Brave.
    Now I need that gold. 😉 $$$$$$$ lol ha ha.
    I will read it next time. Ha ha ha love it.

  5. I don’t think past or present tense on ‘brave’ has any bearing on the solve.
    Whenever Forrest reads the poem he pronounces ‘tarry’ as ‘ta-rē’ as in ‘to stay somewhere’ rather than ‘tärē’ which is ‘of, like, or covered with tar.’

  6. A question about the two mistakes in the old poem that was on Forrest’s website (link below).

    The two mistakes are:
    1. In line 2 (Stanza 1) it was “tresures” instead of “treasures”
    2. In line 19 (Stanza 5) it was “answer” instead of “answers”

    Forrest has said (not in these exact words) that answer(s) was a spelling mistake, pick whatever you want, the poem can be solved with either.

    My question is, did he ever explain the “tresures” difference? I cannot seem to find it anywhere. Could this “mistake” reveal that by “treasures bold” the meaning is “tressures bold”?

    tressure =
    * an ornamental enclosure containing a figure or distinctive device, formerly found on various gold and silver coins.
    * a narrow inner border on a shield, usually decorated with fleurs-de-lys. * Middle English tressour, from tressour, tressure band for the hair, headdress, from Middle French tresseor, tressure, from tresser to tress + -or, -ure

    It might also be a coincidence that the missing S if it is “tressures” was was added to “answer” by mistake. Either way, my question is did Forrest ever explain why his website used the word “tresures” in the poem?

    Note: Please do not think that in any way I am saying Forrest was misleading. I do not think he would do that, however “tressure” sounds a lot like “treasure” and “tresure”, maybe he fixed it so it is clear what he meant, or maybe because it can too easily be associated with “tressure”?

  7. @curioushobbit….no need to worry about copying…not with this sort of Spud at least…;)

    Rites

    A church and a wedding
    May be good,
    But first there was incense
    Of cedar wood.

    Instead of candles,
    Remember the fire
    In the hills, with the wind
    As your choir.

    You may answer the question
    “Do you take…?”
    But the holiest font
    Is a mountain lake.

    The sacred hills
    Are higher than churches,
    And they have steeples
    Of silver birches.

  8. This page is a ghost town. Lots of those in Wyoming. Anyways, here’s the poem without the lines containing ‘I’ ‘You’ ‘Your’ ‘Me’ and other similar words including ‘Brown’ because its capitalized and at the end of a phrase:
    And hint of riches new and old.
    Begin it where warm waters halt
    And take it in the canyon down,
    Not far, but too far to walk.
    From there it’s no place for the meek,
    The end is ever drawing nigh;
    Just heavy loads and water high.
    But tarry scant with marvel gaze,
    Just take the chest and go in peace.

    Notice how there are only nine lines left.

    • Jack,
      I have thought about this in a similar way & may have something there but I wouldn’t exclude PIBTHOB. I’m not sure why you grouped this with ‘I’ ‘You’ ‘Your’ ‘Me’.

      I have noticed that the only stanzas he mentions I – I’ve – I’m – Me or My are the 1st – 5th & 6th stanzas.

      So maybe stanzas 2 – 3 & 4 are about you.

  9. This page is a ghost town. Lots of those in Wyoming. Anyways, here’s the poem without the lines containing ‘I’ ‘You’ ‘Your’ ‘Me’ and other similar words including ‘Brown’ because its capitalized and at the end of a phrase:
    And hint of riches new and old.
    Begin it where warm waters halt
    And take it in the canyon down,
    Not far, but too far to walk.
    From there it’s no place for the meek,
    The end is ever drawing nigh;
    Just heavy loads and water high.
    But tarry scant with marvel gaze,
    Just take the chest and go in peace.

    Notice how there are only nine lines left.

      • I am usually 2 steps ahead of people. I just dont know how Forrest does it. He is always 3 steps ahead. As they say, it takes one to know one.

      • Jonsey1, have you seen the movie Wild Bill 1995 Jeff Bridges. The very last part of the movie made me laugh. Just as Wild Bill gets shot with Aces and Eights. The camera pans to a deck of cards. The cards label is Brown Fox Playing Cards….. It was a good movie.

  10. As I have gone alone in there…
    So why is it that I must go…

    I find it slightly odd the way stanza 1 & 5 start. In stanza 1, you would think the wording would flow better with… As I’ve gone alone in there, not unlike in stanza 5 ‘I’ve done it tired…’
    Also, wouldn’t stanza’s 5 first line read as ‘So why is it I must go…'[ dropping the “that” ]. If both stanzas relate fully to the same person? [ I’m not looking/considering proper grammar, just curious to the reasoning of presentation ].

    Are these slightly different worded lines meant have a reason or subtle way of saying, they are not one in the same person?

    Other quirts are; treasure to trove, as well as, stanza 5 is a form of a question with an answer[s] and stanza 1 talks of hints. Yet, another thought is; why not place stanza 5 at the end of the poem? Imo, stanza 6 would more likely read better/efficient after stanza 4, as it seems to be instructing us about the poem, and not so much an ending… with the question [ stanza 5 ] following it all up or finalizing the poem. I mean by now [ this far in the poem ], the reader is supposed to understand fenn has already gone, right?

    So, If fenn has gone alone in there and with the “treasure”… why tell us he’s leaving again, and with his “trove”? Seems a bit redundant, right? Why the subtle differences in the words chosen?
    Of course we do have hints of riches vs. answers [ “I’ve” done it tired, and now “I’m” weak ] to consider when reading these stanzas as well.

    The point to this; Do we understand these three stanzas as well as we should, or are they just [ like some proclaim ] simply meant as an intro to the poem and the poem’s ending?

    • Treasure vs. trove may be an artistic expression. Not having to use the same word repeatedly, but having the same meaning. This is an opinion, offered as a thought.

      • Artistic expression is always great in a poem… but there are two different meanings of treasure and trove, as well as their placement within the poem. This particular poem contains information to a million plus in gold and stones. Are these words simply written off as artistic expression? Many seem to be writing off a lot of words in this poem…
        “The poem in my book is something that I changed over and over again. When you read the poem it looks like just simple words there. But I guarantee you that I worked on that. I felt like an architect drawing that poem.”

        • Each have their importance, along with artistic expression. It will be difficult, but not impossible (paraphrasing).

    • I think f masked the ultra important beginning point in a seemingly vague first stanza. Then, he additionally masked that by having two stanzas at the end that don’t contain clues. He could have been counting on many to be focusing on the end stuff and skip over the beginning…which is how things have played out and f has commented about after the fact.

      • Fundamental ~ ” Then, he additionally masked that by having two stanzas at the end that don’t contain clues.”

        I guess that is one way of looking at it. Three stanzas just to screw with our heads… kinda a waste of 1/2 a poem.
        The again, if deliberate, it would make the poem even more difficult. But, that sounds like red herrings to me… 1/2 the poem not containing any clues, simply there to mask the real clues… If I’m reading your comment correctly.

        • Seeker, the last two stanzas may be to confirm what has already been done in the previous stanzas.
          ‘So why is it that I must go
          And leave my trove for all to seek?
          The answers I already know,
          I’ve done it tired, and now I’m weak.’

          This is an opinion, offered as a thought.

          • I get PD, and a lot of searchers seem to think the same. I just wondering if there are others that see it different…
            I’m also looking for that “…one important possibility related to the winning solve.”

  11. Starting with the poem, it references by title his two books, TTOTC and TFTW. Each of those books in turn references by title other books. I conjectured that if f “liked” the book I should read it. But if f didn’t like the book I could ignore it. Two of the books he liked and I subsequently found useful were Flywater and Journal of a Trapper. I’m not selling books just sayin they contain information helpful to the searcher. Again it’s all my opinion.

  12. As odd as it might sound, the word “the” from the poem is one of the most important hints in the Chase. It’s definitely in the top three! If you don’t believe me, don’t forget who won the Top Gun trophy. As always it’s my opinion. Best of luck figuring out why. 🙂

  13. “there are a few words in my poem that are not useful”
    Why do you people keep trying to make literal sense out of the poem and the grammar and the tense, and the order of presentation, when he seems to be stating that most of the words were selected for different reasons than the obvious ones.
    Study the word selection and try to figure out why he used treasures, trove, riches, chest, when they all basically seem to mean the same thing. Why are there so many y’s, I’s, ands, an it’s.

  14. Peace => Piece => Scrap
    Title => Book
    Peace + Title => Scrapbook

    So do you still think there are no hints in the scrapbooks?

    Treasure => Thesaurus

    • Dal’s site, is the only personal blog that has SB’s { started after the release of the book}. The first SB was dated Feb 2013, 3 years after the release of the book/poem/challenge. The words you equate from the poem to SB’s could have been written into the poem as much as 20 years prior to the thought of a SB… on a personal web page, by a searcher.
      How in the world can you logically believe that those “words from the poem” have any kind of connection / information related to Scrapbooks, and the reasoning you think SB’s hold hint?
      That’s one heck of a fortune cook ya got there.

      Just blurting out my thought as well…

  15. Here is how f tells you the significance of his Q&A. It is built solely from things found in the poem.

    quest + yon + and + answers + with + Forrest Fenn

    Just FYI.

  16. You will need your thesaurus to see this one, but f just might have thought of everything …. even planned Weekly Words to be part of the Chase. I’m not certain but it’s starting to look that way. Or it could just be a coincidence? You decide.

    weak => Week
    quickly => ly
    put => Words

    • Weekly Word is the creation of the Blogs Owner…{fanatic web site I might add} fenn only agreed to participate. Not unlike;
      Six questions with…
      Random words
      Feature questions

      No deciding needed… that was done for us.
      Mr. Thesaurus, what color is the sky in your world?

  17. Hi all. I am not an active searcher or anything, but have been lurking on here for a while and enjoy seeing everyone’s thoughts on the treasure. One thing I keep coming back to in my own thoughts, is that the poem seems very similar to the story River Bathing is Best on oldsantafetradingco.com. Forrest said that he used to ride his bike to Ojo Caliente as a kid, and it seems like the poem could follow his ride there on a map. They also use some of the same words. Below is the poem with some of my thoughts in parentheses to show the similarities that stick out to me. Anyway, these are just my thoughts and good luck to all of you searchers:
    ————————————————————————————————–
    As I have gone alone in there
    And with my treasures bold,

    (In the past, to his secret bathing spot
    In the present to hide the treasure
    ff – I’d ride my bike into Yellowstone Park)

    I can keep my secret where,
    And hint of riches new and old.

    (Both the poem and the story use the word secret:
    ff – My secret bathing spot – where the hot water tumbled into the stream)

    Begin it where warm waters halt

    (Hot water from geothermal features first enters the river in the Upper Geyser Basin.  In 30 miles, the Firehole River warms almost 30 degrees.  This warm water temperature facilitates year-round insect activity and trout growth. 
    Also Dal’s WWWH being at Madison Junction:
    There are two rivers in Yellowstone that are known to be very warm. They are warm and yet they are great trout fishing streams. Rivers that Forrest and his dad both fished extensively..and often took clients too, the Gibbon and the Firehole.
    So perhaps you see my interest in this place where the Firehole and the Gibbon end as not only a unique place..but also likely to be the place Forrest intends us to “Begin it..” in his poem.)

    And take it in the canyon down,

    (Down on a map through Firehole Canyon)

    Not far, but too far to walk.

    (According to Google earth, it is about 5 miles from Madison Junction to Fountain Flats Drive. Also, ff rode his bike there and has made other comments about bikes:
    ff – I’d ride my bike into Yellowstone Park to a spot about twenty miles from town where a seldom-used dirt road turned right off the main drag.)

    Put in below the home of Brown.

    (Turn right on Fountain Flats Drive,below the Nez Perce creek:
    ff – where a seldom-used dirt road turned right off the main drag.

    Put in can also mean stop ex – if a ship puts in, it stops at a port

    In 1890 brown trout were introduced into Nez Perce creek a Firehole tributary and in the 1920s, rainbow trout were introduced into the river. Today, the falls still block upstream migrations of spawning trout from the Madison River, but the upper Firehole has become a world class trout fishery because of these introductions )

    From there it’s no place for the meek,

    (Getting out of your car and walking maybe, or because it is bear country. Or from the story:
    ff – It was a wonderfully uncivilized pleasure in a remote area where nothing could interrupt the purity of my naked solitude.)

    The end is ever drawing nigh;

    (The end of Fountain Flats Drive:
    ff – They also closed that little road to all vehicles
    ff – Several years ago, with my daughter Kelly’s family, my wife and I drove to the little road (It’s paved now) and walked to the river)

    There’ll be no paddle up your creek,

    (Don’t go in the water)

    Just heavy loads

    (Fountain Freight Road trail at the end of Fountain Flats Dr)

    and water high.

    (Water high = the river:
    Forrest Gets Mail…
    Forrest responds- What is wrong with me just riding my bike out there and throwing it in the “water high” when I am through with it?
    Implies it is something big enough to throw a bike into, like a pond, lake, or river)

    If you’ve been wise and found the blaze,

    (At this point, you are at the river, which could be the blaze:
    The firehole river, named b/c ppl thought the steam was a fire:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Firehole_River
    The river was named by early trappers for the steam that makes it appear to be smoking as if on fire.[2]

    Or it could be something else in the area)

    Look quickly down, your quest to cease,

    (Somewhere around where the trail meets the river. )

    But tarry scant with marvel gaze,
    Just take the chest and go in peace.

    So why is it that I must go
    And leave my trove for all to seek?
    The answers I already know,

    (ff – That spot, which was so important to me sixty-six years ago, is mostly overlooked now by the occasional passerby. My memories of those experiences are so dear to me that I hope in time all of my grandchildren will follow my footprints to that special place.)

    I’ve done it tired, and now I’m weak.

    So hear me all and listen good,
    Your effort will be worth the cold.

    (On effort –
    ff – I made that bike ride more than a few times, even though it was somewhat arduous to pedal that far at only one manpower. But it was always worth the effort.

    ff -*Victory will always justify the effort. (Posted October 21st, 2016)

    On cold –
    ff – Sometimes, when Kelly curls her long blond hair through her fingers in the sunlight, I am reminded of those long water grasses gently weaving and twisting in the river. Winters are cold for those without such memories.

    ff – *Plan a warm place into which you can retreat. Merry Christmas (Posted Dec. 25th, 2015) )

    If you are brave and in the wood
    I give you title to the gold.

  18. You know, stanza five is kind of interesting:

    “So why is it that I must go
    And leave my trove for all to seek.
    The answer(s) I already know
    I’ve done it tired and now I’m weak”

    Go and know, seek and weak, rhyme, but are spelled differently. When meek is used it is rhymed with creek— but here it’s seek and weak. And go and know– and actually so, go, and know all rhyme.

    I find it to be a bit intriguing.

  19. Seeker. Let’s play!!!! 🙂

    Fenn has said, “There are a few words in the poem that are not useful in finding the treasure Phil, but it is risky to discount any of them.”

    Also, very recently, he said “”Every word is placed in there strategically, and you can’t ignore any of the nouns in that poem. f”

    Based upon the latest statement, it would appear that the “nouns” form the nucleus of the Poem.(nucleus: the central and most important part of an object, movement, or group, forming the basis for its activity and growth.)

    Have not the meanings of the nouns constituted the larger measure of discussions involving understanding/solving the clues? The nouns are strategically placed and form the basis for the Poem.

    The Huntsetter has unequivocally stated that we cannot ignore any of the nouns in the Poem!!

    My question to you would be, how can anyone now ignore any of the nouns and have any hope of solving the clues? It now appears that all six stanzas ‘must’ be incorporated into the solution? (it can’t be based solely on stanzas 2,3, & 4)

    So, where to begin?? :)

    • I agree, Loco.
      Another comment { paraphrasing } seems to work with the above comments as well… All the word were deliberately placed {close enough for this conversation}. And, He looked up words and definitions of words… and rebooted.

      So, lol, you ask where to begin?!
      Here’s a though I have been brewing over for some time now… The question in the poem was completely deliberate, no filler, no add on, no structure of the poem, and recently fenn stated about a riddle with-in the poem.
      I’ll add, ‘know where to start,’ and ‘need to start at the beginning’

      So imo, to be honest… we need to { for lack of a better term } solve the Q&A in the poem to know where we need to go.
      This might mean stanza 6 as instructions and now stanza 1 to hint at something important = [ possibility ] and still leaves stanza 2 3 4 as directions needed to be followed by the instruction given in the other stanzas that lead to the chest.
      The idea here is a clue gets you closer. But, a clue might be only pieces of the direction, and the poem ~ overall, as a blueprint or instruction.

      This leaves the clues in consecutive order, contiguous and the poem having All the information to “find” the treasure. IF we read the poem as intended.

      That’s my take ~ overall, anyways.
      So I kinda agree with that attitude of 561234, for the reasons above.

      With that said, the “nouns” should be important throughout the poem. However, I’m open for debate on another theory if you want to. Because it seems to be down ~ to the right “strategy” { opposite of Tomfoolery. which I think you’ll agree with } in understanding the poem, and forget about the dart set.

      • Thanks seeker,

        At present, based on known statements, the only other method, utilizing the entire Poem, would be the one I mentioned to you several years ago.

        But yeah, I was definitely leaning towards 561234, even before the ‘nouns’. I am working with that alone…..but, if I can find another possibility, I’ll throw it at ya!! 🙂

      • Seeker;

        I have long thought that the basic architecture of the poem was a circle. That being the case, starting anywhere – stanza 5 or six or where ever is possible. To start at the question – “So why is it that I must go…” could make a lot of sense.

        My problem comes in connecting
        “If you are brave and in the wood
        I give you title to the gold.”

        and

        ” As I have gone alone in there
        And with my treasures bold,
        I can keep my secret where,
        And hint of riches new and old.”

        “I give you title to the gold” seems to imply the “END” of the search, only to then start it over???

        YES, it IS a circle, but how to make the connection?

        I can connect “In the wood” and “In there” fairly easily, but “Give you title” to “” As I have gone alone in there” is a bit rough for me. Care to help me out a bit as to how you make the connection Seeker? Just Askin’ JDA

        • My only answer… opinion in this line of thinking is… what you listed might not be “clues” as much as “instruction” to understand the clues references.

          I’m as lost as everyone else { whether they want to admit it or not }… I’m just not stuck spinning my wheels in the mud like most.

          • Ah Seeker…I too am lost…but have much enthusiasm for the Quest for answers. The heck with the dang shiny stuff…I want freakin’ answers man.
            There….that’s better. You know my posit on reading the poem out of order…but I do agree that 561234 has a twang to it. I have been able to see some continuity there. I still prefer keeping it simple and reading the poem 1-6 as I have found a good lead in from stanza 1. I think it may be that important thingy.
            The Tomfoolery method is for those who are impatient and need instant failure.

          • Seeker, it’s good to know that you are
            (merely) lost, and not stuck spinning
            your wheels. Carry on.

  20. And yep, if one is just entertaining one’s self, it ain’t tomfoolery. But, it’s not something a ‘serious’ searcher would employ! 🙂

    • Lets take it a step further…
      If we imply direction as the ingredients needed, we still might need instructions to put it all together. Even if the ingredients are listed, such as for a cake; Eggs-flour-sugar etc.
      The instruction; tell us how to do it all… mix-bake-temp. etc.

      Is the poem doing this? Can the poem contain All the information needed, including how it should be executed / understood. The only thing we have, in the most simplest of thoughts is, “begin it where warm waters halt and…” But as fenn stated there are many wwh in the RM’s, and recently said there are billions of blazes… are there not just as many canyons or creeks or heavy loads and water high?

      If so, and it seems to be, imo… then the poem itself must tell us where, the correct ingredients are to be located, and also tell us how to use them. {whether that be stomping out or viewing all or aliening them or waiting for an natural event, or bugs bunny to hop out of his hole and yell, ya found me, etc. etc.
      That is what a blueprint does, right? It show how to put it all together. Otherwise, all we really have is a list of ingredients / materials… Is this the wise part fenn relates to the poem, and “found” the blaze… Knowing where to start and how it all works as one…

      There is another thought, but many don’t like to think about, and it falls into the instruction part of the theory… out of all the many wwh, canyon… the correct ones are below hoB, and that is how we are certain beforehand { out of all the possible choices } and if we knew what hoB is we go right to the chest… or that… knowing where to begin / start line of thinking. And maybe why searcher indicated the first “two” clues but didn’t know it or understand where they were.

      So why is it…? the place of hoB… tired and weak?

      Like I said before… I’m looking for that “important possibility” for winning the prize. That too must be ‘in’ the poem…in my mind.

    • Oz,

      Maybe, but — I’ve done it tired, and now I’m weak…So hear me all and listen good… Your effort will be worth the cold — could also possibly answer it.

      It’s been stated that all the information is in the poem.

      I’ve never understood how anyone becomes fixated on: the clues are bound by each sentence or that they must be bound somehow by stanza ( example: one or two clues per stanza)

      Who says the information cannot cross the ‘border’, between stanzas as long as the clues stay consecutive???
      Or, that the ‘information’ is even bound by punctuation, maybe it is line-by-line??

      • Loco/Seeker,
        I was thinking about this from what you were posting here on this thread. The same way it is easy to ignore the first stanza as ‘filler’ or ff journey into the hidey spot, just the same we do with stanzas 5 and 6. And like you said if the information is in the poem then the answer to that question should be there too. Answering that question should be essential.

        Why did he leave the treasure for all to seek? Is it because he is tired and weak of finding treasures himself and now he wants -others- to find his? Yes, that is the understanding at face value.

        The second layer, imo, is that there is some instruction here to find the clues. The trove is the 9 clues within the poem and he asks: why did I leave these clues here for all to find? He knows the answers (or how the clues are hidden) He has done it -tired- (not physically exhausted) but repeatedly (over and over), meaning the masking of the clues. The next phrase should be something important -and now I’m weak- like he wants to reveal the method next but that is as far as I went. Does it make sense?

        • Oz10, I followed you right up to the weak part, then ya lost me… are you using weak as in information given, but not enough information?

          I think there’s much more to it, and as Loco stated, it might come from the next pieces of information in the poem… But…lol.. I fell off your train of thought on weak… help me out, cuz i’m always will to look at it from all views. { well, most views.}

          • Seeker, ‘as far as I went’, I was referring to myself. In other words, I can’t make the connection with that last phrase (and now I’m weak.)

            I do have something with the first 2 lines of stanza 6 that will carry forward in the same line of thinking.

            So hear me all and listen good- in here I think he is saying ‘hear this but understand that’ or ‘ when you hear this, replace it with that’.

            Your effort will be worth the cold- Why is effort needed? because you need to do what the previous line says (hear this and change it for that) maybe start over or loop around with the new understanding. Makes sense?

      • Loco~ “Who says the information cannot cross the ‘border’, between stanzas as long as the clues stay consecutive?”

        With that thought in mind… who says the clues are needed to be seen { Physical Viewing } in that order?
        IF we seem to end up at HLAWH, are we to look back at this point?
        I have to agree with Goofy on one aspect of being on site, might be, having to view the clues… think about them… analyze them on site.

        The question I ask myself is, where does this stake place? wwwh? hoB? Water high? etc. Could “no place for the meek” refer to, the end we need to view, to see where we need to go?

        There are a lot of WhatIF’s that might need to be considered. While some of my thoughts relate to the beginning, and / or, the first two clues… is it possible that somewhere along the line there must be something that needs less stomping and more viewing?

        Maybe the mirror we might be trying to understand is; that thought of climbing a mountain just to see where I was.
        It’s an older comment, but one many leave to collect dust.

        • LOL!! I like pulling Goofy’s tail!! But yes Seeker, I have long thought that at least the ninth would have to be identified on site.

          And, I agree that, after the fist two, BOTG may be required at any point, I keep that in the forefront of my thinker!!

          It might be conditional-bias on my part, but Fenn made a comment about eighteen months ago that I utilize to validate a potential solve. I start applying it immediately upon identifying an area with the first two clues. If the area doesn’t meet the criteria, I’m outta there! But, in conjuction with that, I am also of the opinion that distance between the third and ninth clues is not that great.(based on his comments)

          I doubt that I am the only who utilizes this next research tool, but it has worked great for me. Everybody has cameras these days,….. Do you know how many public websites there are that people post pictures, and videos, to?? There are millions of pics/videos of the Rocky Mountains alone. It’s amazing what people take pictures of, and comment on. If many people(searchers or not) have been as close as 500 feet, you can bet that most have taken pictures of the area and they can be found online. I have been able to find a number taken in any area I was interested in. No need to go there to get the lay of the land, at least initially! 🙂 
          And yep, I have considered that ‘no place for the meek’ may be the end we are going to. It may not be what is geographically next. He may just be saying that is where we ‘end’. We may need to work past ‘end is nigh’, ‘no paddle’, ‘heavy loads/water high’ immediately after HOB. And ‘no place for the meek’ may actually be the blaze or, perhaps it something we gaze upon when looking down?

          Thanks for playing, Seeker!!! 🙂

        • “Maybe the mirror we might be trying to understand is; that thought of climbing a mountain just to see where I was.
          It’s an older comment, but one many leave to collect dust.”

          Seeker, what is this referencing?

      • Loco, if you were to ask the same question to ff about tomfoolery and homophones, do you think the answer will be the same?

        • Oz, I truly don’t know. I’ve looked at them a couple of times myself and am still on the fence as to whether they were used or not.

          And, if I asked, there is no way to know what his answer would be…..but, from the latest Q&A, I see that you don’t ask a question and answer it yourself!!!!! 🙂

          • LOL why not? at least “you” would know you’re not wrong, right?

            Hey PD your a woman. Could you ask fenn,~ after hiding the chest did he go out to lunch? I doubt if he would answer me because I’m not.
            A woman, I mean…
            Although, I’m told I’m always out to lunch, or something about a knife in the draw.

            But I have to go now, I need to get something from the shed for CH. a pail or a garden hose or a water balloon… I need to be careful in there… many sharp tools hanging around.

          • Yep, I guess one can argue that until the chest is found, lots out here is tomfoolery.

  21. That important possibility, imo, is something that Dal has mentioned in one of his post, but no one, not even Dal took notice of it.; the important possibility that is.

    IMO, the HOB is below WWWH. You must fine it (WWWH) b4 you find HOB and then take the canyon down to put in below the HOB.. Now how is WWWH and CD below the HOB? Cannot be. The instructions are to: Go there, then go down, then put in below somewhere, then go up somewhere until the end, you will know the end when you see something, and if you have followed the instructions so far you will see something (blaze), then look quickly down and there it is somewhere within 200 ft.

    That is the recipe directions for finding the chess; now find the elusive ingredients. If you find the main ingredient (wwwh) you are on your way to finding the others and finishing the chase. IMO…..

    • ManOwar,
      Your concept might be missing something else important. The certainty beforehand, the part where the clues references apparently can be discovered at home…just not in practicality of “finding” the chest… And, walk right to the chest.

      You, have a searcher walking out the clues, and down into a canyon… why is that a must do? Where in the poem does it say… you [ a searcher ] needs travel, or could it simply be stating the waters travel.

      Look at it this way; if i gave you a point on a map to go to, you would set a course on that map to get to it, Right?

      But if I gave you a course on a map that lead to a point… would you not go to that point from where-ever you start from?

      Just a different perspective…

      • Seeker, the point on Forrest’s map is not given in a name like, Denver or Taos it’s given in the words of a poem. Tthe directions I gave can be followed on the map mentally or can be followed physically. You can look at the map( let’s say Google Live)find a place called WWH which is in a canyon then follow it down visually till you see the HOB ….etc.. you don’t need to be BOTG until the very end. You can be certain without going to each location just that they fit the clues. Now you can also go to each location physically and be just as certain. Before you go you can be certain by confirming that all the clues you have found will fit the directions that I laid out., and that each clue meets the wording of the poem in some manner ,i.e., Definition, metaphor, word play or imagination. I do believe that one can solve most of the clues at home with a sense of certainty, but they should follow the pattern that I mentioned earlier.

        Yes, you can start the chase from anywhere, but you must first find WWWH to start your journey. I’m not saying it is the first clue, I’m saying it’s the first location to identify. The first clue can be anywhere in the poem that leads you to wwwh then all of the rest of the clues are followed in order. Get what I’m saying?

        • I get it. Thanks for the clarification. However, aren’t we back to the first clues vs. know where to start, line of thinking?

          So, we have the correct wwh out of all the possible ones… how did we get there?
          Is that place, the first true clue? and wwwh is clue two, Or, is the place where the correct wwh just told of ? so we know where to start.?

          lol.. which pickle from the pickle jar would you like?

          I think it’s important to understand ‘how’ we locate “begin it where…” out of all the other possible locations. Not unlike, how we locate and understand which blaze fenn refers to out of all of the blazes… even within that location, nevertheless billions within the search area.

          I wish it was as simple {in concept} as it seems… but the failure of the many who got the first two clues, and didn’t know, should yell out to all… there’s something more to be known.

          Of course, that is my thoughts anyways.

          • Seeker, … I think you need to pick a pickle. lol ….IMO, the third clue is over looked because it’s staring everyone in the face and they can’t recognize it for what it is. IMO, IMO.

            Your thoughts are good but at some point you must commit. Good luck.

          • It’s a waste of time to be concerned
            about billions of blazes.

            Look for the first clue first.

            If you think that you have found it, then look for the second clue, somewhere kinda nearby.

            One clue at a time should be qualified, based on earlier ones.

            All my opinion.

      • Seeker-
        “You, have a searcher walking out the clues, and down into a canyon… why is that a must do? Where in the poem does it say… you [ a searcher ] needs travel, or could it simply be stating the waters travel.”

        Agreeing with those traveling waters . . .

      • Here is the first time stanza two tells you to move:

        Put in below the home of Brown. At no time (if you read it properly and note the grammar) does the poem tell YOU to go down any canyon, the WATERS “halt and take”, not you 🙂

        • Wy, quakesped & Seeker… in keeping with your premise then the WATERS put in below the HOB not YOU. In Fact, you could go further and say that from there the WATERS continue until it finds the blaze. lol

          Who do you think begins the chase? The WATERS or YOU? Let’s get real here, it’s talking about YOU to begin IT not the WATERS. This poem is not about the WATERS finding the TC, its about YOU finding it!

          If YOU have been wise, not if the WATERS have been wise. He’s telling YOU (US) to begin the chase WWWH. OMO.

        • ManOwar,
          The poem is tells ‘you’?
          Hmmmm…
          The challenge is about solving the clues to find a “place”
          The poem clues refer to “places” features… it a map… it tells of details…

          Where in stanza 1 does it mention ‘you’ anything? where in stanza 2 does it say ‘you’ anything?

          It’s not until stanza 4 when “you” come into the picture.
          If we’re being analytical, and thinking and planning and thoughts of the whatIFs, using imagination, and following along within the poem and what it says… you are only wise if you “found” where the blaze is… not to mention the Q&A;
          Clues at home?… “All of them,…”

          I won’t quote the Q&A where fenn stated about not going up and down a canyon… you can look that up for the full question ans answer if you like… and judge for yourself.

          Al you are doing is hoping that is what the poem Might be saying. That’s ok… its seems to be working well so far, right?

          • Seeker wrote:
            The poem is tells ‘you’?
            Hmmmm,
            Yes, for whom did he write it?
            Some place or thing? No, he wrote it for us. So we are the one to find the places in the poem, not the places finding us. ‘It’s straight forward’…I believe he said (paraphrasing)

            6 years now and how’s it working for you? One can ask a million questions and purpose a million ideas, but unless you can snatch on to a clue that tells you WWWH is and commit to it then you are just like the beginner….confused

            You go ahead…. ask more questions and then tell the person who answered them that their thinking and ideas are not what FF meant when he wrote the poem. Good going, keep it up.

        • Apparently ManOwar, you missed the point I was attempting to describe.
          The poem doesn’t say ‘you’ have to do anything until you get to “found the blaze”

          While a physical search should retrieve the chest, the poem is not stating present tense of the searcher until that point. That is when imo, we’re given instructions to actually do something, kicks in.

          Q~ How much progress can be made by someone just thinking and searching the Internet from home? (Another way of saying this: How many clues can only be decoded in situ?) 
          A~ FF: All of them, in theory, but not likely in practice. A searcher must go to the site to find the treasure.

          We { a searcher } may not have to travel anywhere except to the solve section of the poem ~ “If you’ve been wise and “found” the blaze… now you are given instruction to do something an action to look and gaze… with botg there.

          As far as the rest of your comment, Jake must have helped you write that… How long have you’ve been at this challenge? how many trips have you done and came home empty handed? How many questions have rolled around in your head?

          If the blog wasn’t meant to debate theories, discuss Ideas, and overall chatting about the challenge.. why bring up the complaints that say if you haven’t gone on a search your still a beginner line. or commit to one thing and run it into the ground with botg. Even if your wrong… just go, go, go…

          LOL how has that worked for ya’ll ?
          That excuse / reply is really old, and an end run to avoid a real chat about possibilities, and whatIF’s

          I wonder if Sasha as a thrill of the chase dart set for sale… she’d make a killing. Buy 3 darts at 29.99 and just pay the extra shipping and handing cost for 6 more darts free.. and a fortune cookie that read; it will be found this year, again.

          LOL thus far three, I know where it is [ within 3′ 12′ and 50′ and came back with nice pics and new excuses… while getting pats on the back for such a wonderful failed solve.

          “I warned that the path would not be direct for those who had no certainty of the location beforehand, but sure for the one who did.” f

          I’ma gonna go out on a limb here and say the “location beforehand” is the spot the chest lays in wait.

          • With this poem, what is the formula to achieve certainty? I wonder because I have a solve I believe in from armchair. I believed in my clues solution. I had an image in my mind about what the blaze could be. I went to my site but was snowed out to reach my search area though I was close enough to scan around with binoculars. I saw something close resembling my blaze image then scanned around from there and saw interesting potentials. I couldn’t get any closer so I drove back home. I get home and still don’t know for certain if I am close or right at all. I am still not certain of any of it doing both.

          • Seeker, your limb seems very fragile. I wouldn’t go too far out on that limb it’s liable to break and you’ll fall down from your high perch and then you’ll have to start all over and climb that tree from the beginning.

            I would say that the “location beforehand” is the blaze. Didn’t you even say that you must be at the blaze before you could find the TC? That you needed to have BOTG after reaching the blaze.
            How can the “location beforehand” then be the spot the TC lays in wait?

            I think you may have contradicted yourself, but it really doesn’t matter. What matters is finding the first clue.
            Good luck to you.

    • ManOwar, I like your thinking (as shown by your message,
      above). But I believe that your generalizing about “the
      important possibility” is not valid.

      I think your second paragraph is good.

      Good luck with your solving and searching.

      • tighterfocus, Thanks, but what is it about “the important possibility” do you think invalid? Good luck to you also.

  22. “Maybe the mirror we might be trying to understand is; that thought of climbing a mountain just to see where I was.
    It’s an older comment, but one many leave to collect dust.”

    Seeker, what is this referencing? Is this a comment F made somewhere?

  23. Noob question regarding the poem, assistance requested. What happened to the ‘s’ in the word answers between TTOTC and TFTW? Typo? Clue? Which one is officially correct? Thanks in advance.

  24. “As I have gone alone in there.”

    I don’t believe The Flyer is speaking in first person in this Stanza.

    IOW…..iT is not about him.

    SL

  25. pdenver & Sparrow,

    Your comments and my reply to each of them today are no longer….here.

    Regarding my comment that I didn’t believe the first stanza: “As I have gone alone in there” was stated in the context as first person, (The Flyer.)

    SL

  26. SL—
    Thanks. Note to self: don’t make comments about Laos or Grizzly bears because they will be deleted. It’s too bad because I heard this great joke about a Grizzly bear in Laos just yesterday. 🙂

  27. Forrest stated that the poem will take the searcher straight to the treasure and that it would be almost impossible for anyone to just stumble over. I also heard him say that the searcher doesn’t need any specific knowledge of geography. At this point I can only logically conclude that there is a grid or lat/long hidden somewhere in the poem. Any thought?

  28. OK…
    I have watched, listened and participated in a “few” discussions about the poem for a number of years. I have been a first stanza(first clue) advocate since the beginning. Others(rightly so) have advocated that the beginning of the second stanza (BIWWWH) was the first clue. As it turns out…BIWWWH has been identified as the first clue. Thanks/hats off to Loco for his dogged persistence in finding the proof!
    Am I dissuaded by this? Not on your life! In fact…I am grateful that at least we have that. The reality is…that’s not a whole lot really. The real job is to “know” where/what the heck BIWWWH actually is.
    Forrest has told us time and again that folks have identified this place…and there are folks on this blog that swear up and down they personally know for a fact what/where BIWWWH is. I say…the proof is in the pudding and it’s not over until someone brings home the bacon.
    Here’s my point….
    To understand and analyze a poem or other piece of literature, it needs to be taken apart bit by bit, cleaned up so it is more clear. I think in this process folks are reconstructing it to suit their own ideas not pertinent to the actual poem. Back in English Lit. I remember being told that the first and last lines of a poem are often very important to the overall plot. Could this be true with this poem? Or, has Fenn bumped the curb in this too? Another insight from English Lit. and reading poetry that I recall, is that punctuation is a good indicator on how the poem is actually timed and read. Is that the case here? Listen to how Forrest reads the poem…he forces a break at the end of each line, contrary to the actual punctuation. Maybe that is why he forgets the words to a poem he worked on for 20 plus years? Or, maybe he changed the punctuation and not the words? Robert Frost said “Poetry provides the one permissible way of saying one thing
    and meaning another.” I guess he got that right!
    Back to my poetry dissection…

  29. In the poem, “tired” could mean weary or exhausted or “tuckered out”.

    If you look up the discography (specifically the “singles”) of the
    Marshall Tucker Band, I think you’ll be impressed — as I was — by the
    names of many of the songs. I don’t think this is a coincidence, or an
    accident by Forrest. All part of my opinion.

  30. In the poem, he asks (why he must go), and then says , he already knows the answers. So why ask the question? The word “must” can mean that something is imperative, and it can refer to “grape must” a by product of wine making. I never imagined the search area to be wine country, but there are some vineyards. And his mention of Grapette, could be related.

  31. One other thing,. In TTOTC on page 131, He uses the word “cache” to refer to the treasure. Webster’s shows the primary use of the word cache, to mean to “press together”, another possible reference to wine making.

  32. I don’t see any reason, why “begin it” and “put in”, can’t be the same place. Thus putting WWWH, automaticaly below the HOB.

  33. Thought I would throw out there that the phrase “all to seek” formerly meant something very specific. It means at a loss, perplexed or confused about a way forward. Example: “Concerning the location of the treasure chest, I am all to seek-“

  34. Doug Preston, claimed Mr. Fenn said, the poem was so (tricky), that he wouldn’t be surprised, if it took 900 years to solve. And then we have Mr. Fenn saying, that the words in the poem, mean exactly what they say. How can it be both ways???

    • Because there are so many definitions for the 166 words that make up the poem. Let’s say that there are at least three definitions for each of the 166 words. – That’s 498 – Round up to 500 possible words. How many combinations does that make? Numbers confuse me but let’s just say one heck of a lot of possible combinations. Sure, the words mean exactly what they say – but which, of the many definitions for any one particular word are we to chose? Will our choice affect, or be affected by, the word coming before or after our chosen definition? Probably so. So, for me, that is how both statements can be true…. but I go by what Forrest says – he is the one that wrote the poem, and he is the one that knows what each word means – – – to him JMHO JDA

      • Thanks,JDA, My impression was that Mr. Fenn meant, the current common usage of the words, like when he said that the poem was straight forward. The poem seems tricky enough, just the way it appears on the page, and I’ve come to the conclusion that , that is all we get.

  35. I remember, during the first six months of the chase, searchers were focused on the poem. And that was when Mr. Fenn was the most active on the forums. And then searchers feeling that the poem was to ambiguous, started looking for clues elsewhere, and that’s when Mr. Fenn said that people were over thinking the poem, and the more that trend continued, the less Mr. Fenn participated. Just my observations, other’s may have seen it differently.

    • Maybe that wasn’t so clear. My point was that taking the poem at face value, was what Mr. Fenn wanted searchers to do. And when they stopped doing that he backed away.

      • Hi James – IMO taking the poem at face value eliminates the chance for a correct solution. We’ve all seen the results of taking the poem at face value. No chest secured. IMO the architect designed his poem to work very well but it requires a radical adjustment to see what Forrest has included in his poem.

  36. Hi, Hma, Mr. Fenn seemed really happy with the way things were going, until searchers starting re-arranging the stanzas of the poem, and looking for codes, ect. That’s when he first said, “not to mess with the poem”, and that “people were over thinking it”, and that, “the poem was straight forward”. I know this doesn’t help, I just think it’s worth remembering.

  37. I went to look up, the word look, when I saw, the words, “Look Down”, directly below Look. “Look Down” is a type of fish, that live in warm seas.

  38. maybe I have missed this part but has Forrest ever stated why there are 6 stanzas in the poem? He could have done it in any number of stanzas. Right?

  39. @anyone – Ah … the poem. I believe the 1st stanza is simply an introduction. The journey begins with the 2nd stanza at wwwh, continues down the canyon, & ends at the hoB. Those are all directions from FF … telling us what to do. So there the journey stops.

    The 3rd stanza is simply descriptive … no commands from FF. So again the journey is still at the hoB. Then the 4th stanza states that if the blaze has been found, look quickly down. But where WAS the blaze?

    I believe the blaze was to be located somewhere between wwwh & the hoB. That’s literally what the poem says. Perhaps FF did NOT mean it to read that way … or maybe he did. Anyway I believe the blaze is located at wwwh. FF has certainly stressed the importance of the first clue.

    Also if the clues are contiguous (touching), then the 5th & 6th stanzas are out of the running. There must be NO clues in them at all. Because when the journey ends at the blaze in the 4th stanza, that’s it. Treasure found.

      • Nice. Perhaps the first three clues are 3 different locations . Followed by 6 clues each having at least one of the 6 connected to each of the 3 locations; though they may not be evenly distributed. Imagined in imagination only from the start ; moving/ flowing in concert with words to the practical physical journey. Though all can be done physically but the first part is,by him, imagined. IMO .

        Making parking at second location feasible , still following the clues and being almost half way there- figuratively speaking.

        Contiguous creative via imagination to physical application, applicable to in the beginning- begin it then finish. IMO .

        Not sure if I am using the Key the right way, but this is my chosen way of reading The Poem.

    • I wonder if that’s why Mr. Fenn often said, that searchers should memorize the poem, and then go back and read the book slowly?

  40. Does every clue in the poem have to be imagined? It could be that way, but I can’t imagine Mr. Fenn, sending families out searching, without having something tangible (something, that doesn’t have to be guessed at, to at least get started.

    • James;

      Since Indulgence has not yet been found, how can any of us answer your question. We can only guess, and offer our opinions.

      Clue #1 = wwwh. For me, this is a real place. Imagination is used only when one asks the question, “WHY did Forrest choose this place as HIS wwwh location. – “And take it in the canyon down. Is the canyon real? It is for me. Do I have to use my imagination to fit my physical “Canyon” to the definition of a canyon? Maybe so, maybe no.

      For me – Clue #2 – NF,BTFTW – Yes, since I do not know exactly what “TFTW” is to Forrest, I have to use a bit of imagination.

      For me – Clue #3 – “Put in below the home of Brown.” – Yes, a bit of imagination is needed to figure out why “MY” hoB was Forrest’s hoB… and the story behind that choice.

      So, to answer your question – Each searcher must decide for himself what the words mean, and decide how much imagination is required to make a particular “place” fir – JMO – JDA

    • James,

      For me personally none of the clues are imagined, they are real. I believe that you do need some imagination to figure out what some of the clues are. Over all the poem should be followed, hopefully you may find and recognized the clues.

      I personally go with the poem and not worry about what are clues or hints. Imagination has helped me find what I am looking for such as wwwh, hoB & the blaze, but they are real. An imagination to me is a “what if” to find the real place or solution to something in the poem. I believe if one goes for an imaginary clue and it’s not real at all then one can’t find the treasure.

    • Since Seeker seems to be busy/off blog lately I will chime in for him: his most recent comments seem to suggest that it may not be enough to have found the ‘places’, but rather you have to figure out what you ‘do’ once there (use some, a lot of imagination?), before moving to the next clue. I believe his line of thinking is based on the fact so many have been there (first 2-4 clues maybe in order maybe not) but missed the remaining clues/walked by the chest. So maybe to answer you more directly, no, not every ‘clue’ involves imagination, but how to (know with confidence) move between them does?

      Personally, I subscribe to the ‘simplify’ approach, if a redneck w 12 kids was his target, seems to be the level of imagination required may be more ‘childlike’ than most of us like to believe, all IMO, and not trying to pigeonhole rednecks w pickups. But given the lack of success and ‘difficult, but not impossible’ aspects, seems something has been missing, and it isn’t a lack of physical places being explored. I’m a firm believer that a statistical approach may hold some answers…in that we have all these stories of where people have searched to no avail, and surely thousands more that have not been posted to blogs…if we could somehow harvest all of those locations into a single database, use some existing map oriented land reductions (https://dalneitzel.com/2016/05/03/arcgis/) we might narrow down those places that have not been looked at. I have about 3 general areas (but not complete, 9 clue solves) that lie on the ‘fringes’ of the map, that I think have been much overlooked…but several recent comments about being ‘in the mountains’ (IIRC a searcher claims to have been told by FF that he was not ‘in the mountains, despite being in the Rocky Mountains (region?)…please take w a grain of salt, not a confirmed quote by any means) have me re-thinking those. Also, I am biased up the wazoo…my state is WY with a couple recent CO possibles…MT (IMO) is so big (in terms of mountain covered acreage), I discount it, but not just being too big, but the fact that so many have searched HARD in the more likely FF related areas. NM I think is also heavily searched/used up, and rio grande comment excludes a ton of possibilities. Heck even Cynthia has moved on from NM 😉

  41. James, for me,:
    Clue 1- Biwwwh, cannot be solved from poem
    Clue 2- Atiitcd, same as one, close to one
    Clue 3- Ftinpftm, same
    Clue 4- Iybwaftb, same, but marvel gaze can be seen and figured from the poem.
    Clue 5- Jttcagip, can be solved with the poem
    Clue 6- Swiitimg, solved from the poem
    Clue 7- Iditaniw, solved from the poem
    Clue 8- Yewbwtc, solved from the poem, this is “X”, this spot is the coordinates, this spot is where a bell is, this is where you land after clue 7.
    Clue 9- solved from poem, goes with the “key”, this is a distance from clue 8, the key gives a date, clue 9 gives the time and also a distance, it stems from using clue 5 at clue 8, it puts you within 1 foot.

    The one possibility that searchers have not considered= all the clues cannot be solved.

    The poem offers coordinates, the spot of clue 8. Only one way in. One trail, which starts at wwwh. Solving the poem gives coordinates, going there and starting at the one place to use to start your path, is at wwwh. It’s then head south down the canyon, to just inside the tree line to find clue 3. Following the trail until clue 4, which cannot be seen at first but marvel gaze can be.

    So, for me, no imagination really, that comes in the poem solve. Breaking down each line, following the instructions, noticing letter values, and then finding coordinates to put an “X” on the map. Like he said, keep going back to the poem.

    I’ve been out there so I know what the clue references are, at least in reference to my solve. All the ATF’s, book hints, interviews, whatever are support info.

    So, to get started, just follow the poem instructions. Solve the poem to get your spot, go to that spot, on the way you will see the clues on your path, can then understand them, and follow them to the chest…

  42. 99% of searchers totally ignore the poems introduction, pay attention, the poem leads to what besides the treasure? It is clearly printed in English.

  43. —- The poem being a map of the book

    To me stanza one is a riddle, and the answer is “The Memoir” where he went alone, with his treasures bold, he keeps his secret where and hints of riches new and old. I believe that the poem is multiple layers, at least two. You do not need to locate the hints in TTOTC to sovle the poem, but I feel that if you use the poems first layer to locate the hints, it helps remove the vagueness of the clues eliminating the need for trial and error. I also want to mention that many of the aberrations in the book are not hints, they are rabbit holes. My rule is that if the poem did not lead me there, then it isn’t a helpful hint.

    For a while now (me for a year) a few people have found many connections from the poem to the book. I am not going to dive deep into them or explain a solve, but I do want to mention that there are several specific pages being hinted to. I will only mention the first one in the poem. TTOTC sections are clearly not in order, and the only thing missing from the book is a table of contents. Could the poem (map) be the table of contents? Lets see one example…

    First of all lets look at the sentence PRIOR to the poem

    Lead in sentence (page 131-132): “So I wrote a poem containing nine clues that if followed precisely, will lead to the end of my rainbow and the treasure:”
    Stanza one first line: “As I have gone alone in there”

    What do we see here? For starters
    1) The lead in sentence does not end with a period, it has a colon. So where does it end? See the end of this video for how FF uses colons: https://vimeo.com/174230578
    2) It begins with “SO”. As many people have indicated, the word SO means “To the amount or degree expressed or understood”.
    3) If you count the words beginning at SO in that lead in sentence, the 23rd word is “treasure”
    4) The first period that follows the sentence above is at the end of Stanza 1 following the word OLD
    5) The first line in stanza one is 23 characters long from “A to e”
    6) The first line in stanza one has 7 words.
    7) Line one in stanza 1 begins with AS. The word AS means “To the same extent or degree”

    Interesting. 23 seems like it might mean something. Lets go take a look at page 23 in TTOTC (first page of Jump-Starting the learning curve).
    Here is the first paragraph (note the Drop-Cap is “I” from the word IN:

    In 1943 I started the seventh grade in junior high school where my father was the newly appointed principal. It was there that my life really began, but for the first ten years I figured that if it weren’t for my name I wouldn’t have anything at all. Then, when I became a teenager, things just got worse. The good part was that I wasn’t even smart enough to know I wasn’t very bright, until one day my teacher asked, “Forrest Fenn, don’t you know anything?” I replied, “Miss Ford, I don’t even suspect anything.” Then for some strange reason, what I had just said seemed to take on a purpose of its own. It was a primeval thought but maybe it made me think deeper down. No matter what I lacked or lost, bad grades and all, they couldn’t take away my name.
    What do we see here?
    1) If you search the contents of the entire book (with the exception of the cover and copyright of course), this is the ONLY place “Forrest Fenn” appears. So he is alone on page 23.
    2) If we look at the sentence that contains “Forrest Fenn”, the name Forrest is the 23rd word.
    3) You cannot tell by looking at the paragraph above due to not being formatted like the book, but Forrest is alone on the 7th line.
    4) There are 80 words in the chapter preceeding the word “Forrest”, Forrest was 80 years old.
    5) If we count the characters left in the sentence that has his name, the result is 23.

    What I did above works for much more than just the very first sentence. In addtion, there is much more going on than I am indicating, but after some extensive work you should be able to see MANY more connections if you use your imagination and apply the poem to TTOTC. It isn’t just page 23, 109 is another good one and many more.

    The punctuation in the poem also plays a very important role, I will leave that up to you to figure out. I do have a suggestion, lock yourself in a room and ignore the blogs, scrapbooks and other garbage. All you need to do is pay close attention to the words and grammar of the poem, the poem literally tells you exactly what to do if you follow the words precisely (and with correct defintions). Not only does it work with Google Earth, it works with the book too by leading you to the hints directly.

    Forrest even hints to do this with the following statement “”The chapters in my book have very subtle hints but are not deliberately placed to aid the seeker. f”
    As John Brown was so kind to point out: The grammatical subject of that sentence is “The chapters”. Thus the literal interpretation of that sentence is that “The chapters are not placed to aid the seeker.”. If you read the book enough, it is very clear that the chapters are out of order (the clues in the poem are too). The hints in the book will help you not only figure out the exact place WWWH, but will also put the clues in the correct order.

    WARNING: Do not just skim through TTOTC looking for aberrations such as Robert Redford did in fact write a book, this will NOT work, I think he put them there as red herrings. Put it this way, if the poem did not take you there, it probably is not a hint that will help with the clues.

    I do not claim that this is what we MUST do, it is just a theory of mine that does appear to work. I am also sure that I am not the first to notice the connections. There is much more that I can say about using the poem as I do above, but it would give away too much effort. In addtion there are some things I cannot share because other searchers gave me the info after reading my posts, and I do not want to share their secrets. Wish I could though because it would blow you away!

    I am curius what other people think. Please post what you think, don’t just quote something Fenn said without taking the time to back it up like I am trying to do here. If you read it, I’ve already explained how it works regardless of what Fenn said. Many people are not even reading the quotes properly (or the poem for that matter).

    By the way…

    You know the chapter name “Jump-Starting the learning curve” on page 23 is appropriate. Why? Because the lead in sentence and the first stanza basically tell you how to use the poem. A dry run of sorts. The real meat of the clues of course begin at “Begin IT” (Defintion of IT = Used to refer to that one previously mentioned. Used of a nonhuman entity; an animate being whose sex is unspecified, unknown, or irrelevant; a group of objects or individuals; an action; or an abstraction.)

    In other words IT is known by the time you are beginning at stanza 2, because IT was defined in stanza 1.

    Forrest has jump started our learning curve. To a degree… Of course we all know what degree is, and there are 60 minutes to a degree, 60 seconds to a minute”. Food for thought.

      • Now I can get with this thought Wy. It is a way to go about solving the poem. Good job Wy.
        Actually, there are layers to the poem, it makes sense with his comment to go back to the poem, over, and over. I get 4 layers, but that’s me, may be more.
        23 is interesting. I might not have come up with it like you have, but it is important, IMO. For me, it’s the longitude. Looking at it, So could also mean South. Maybe it’s a mirror thing in this case. South, North, would be longitude. Being in the military, f would know his abbreviations, it may be part of the poem, to see abbreviations.
        As far as the poem referencing the book, I’ve only found one line that actually directs you to the book, line 16. “and go in peace”. Put the words “and go”, IN the word “peace”. One way to do that would be first letter, second letter, etc…like:
        p-a-g-e-n-o-a-d-c-e. Page “no A” dce. Or “page dce”. It actually leads to “two people can keep a secret if one of them is dead”. For me, that would be the shadow. Skippy standing up, thought.
        I like what you are finding, I say keep digging, it seems to be a way to solve the poem, and not trying to solve for clues.
        Are you on the thought that the poem will give you a spot, and then reverse engineer, or in looking at the path you must take, gives you your start place?
        It looks like that is the way to look at it. Finding your spot will lead to finding a start place. It’s not that you can solve for wwwh as a clue, but solve for it with a poem solve. Is this your thought? That we be the first couple clues can be solved statement he has made. Still sneaky on his part to word it like he did. People might still be trying to solve for wwwh, thinking he said you can solve it. Only the chest will tell you that you have the right spot. Or, having the spot where the chest is. The actual clues, 3 and 4 need BotG, seems obvious.
        Again, nice work Wy, I like the effort, I hope it pans out for you. A couple number to think about, (22,23,57,66,80,97,113,133,137). I know, means nothing, but if you happen to find these somewhere in your search, they may end up working out, good luck.

        • Thanks for the reply Charlie. I completely agree with you that the poem contains instructions to operate on the poem itself, and also with TTOTC.

          As you already know, there is much more to it than just this.

          I really wish I could say more because not only does the poem tie directly to hints, but when you do what he tells us to do with those book sections, there are things that appear that make it pretty darn obvious that it was not a coincidence.

          It is VERY cool stuff. I talked briefly with someone on another forum (Deepthnr) via private messages, and we shared some notes. His ideas are not exactly the same, and he appears to be ahead of me (thought wise), but we both found the same things in common.

          The cool thing is that once you make the connections to the book, the book itself leaves almost no doubt that you have the right idea for the metaphors he used for each clue. Once you nail the metaphors by using the TTOTC hints, you are now ready to look at the map or GE and make a conntection.

          When I stopped posting last June after a small discussion (argument almost) about Deserts with Forrest (less than 20 hours before he told me I was in the desert, he made the comment about getting a new solve). I took the ending from the solve that sent me to Sarcophagus Butte and replaced it with the ending of a previous solve that is in the Wind River Range of mountains. I sent FF some details about it, but that was when he stopped answering most emails. So I used all summer and fall to go back to the poem and TTOTC, no blogs really (just a little, LOL).

          I really had a lot of time to stay focused. I made plans around the holidays to return to Wyoming in June. My partner lives near Riverton, so we can scout things out very fast. This is making the other poem layer move much faster.

          Am I right? I don’t know and can’t prove anything at this time. Who knows… hehe

          • I did the same, after the first year and a half, realized I was doing it all wrong, took about 3-4 months off, then came back with fresh eyes. Really does help.
            Yes, there are things in the book that not only stand out, but need to be answered with one’s solve. Lol, there are even 9 bindings, or whatever you call them. Just hold the book upside down and count the page bindings.
            It only makes sense that the book would have some things in it, since the poem is in there, why not? The thing is with the statement of: “So I wrote a poem containing 9 clues that if followed precisely will lead to the chest and the end of my rainbow”.
            Early on, people took this as to follow the 9 clues precisely. When we really didn’t know or think that he was really saying to follow the “poem” precisely, not the clues.
            Later on, he said to follow the clues, but of course to follow the poem will lead to the clues.
            It’s finally come around that the important thing to do is to solve the poem. Now, the consensus is to solve the poem not the clues. I’m sure there will still be those that haven’t been out that think they have all 9 clues, but to be expected. That’s why I say by solving the poem, and seeing something within the poem, whether it directs you to the book, comments, wherever, gives you a big step up. When I first started, I thought I had no chance. Dal, Cynthia, and a couple others had 5 months on me, no way I would catch up. Lol, I didn’t think that it would still be out there after 7+ years. Someone could start now, with the info available, still has a chance. It might be slim with f’s current comments, but still has a chance. (ohhh, if someone that has been in the chase for a week, figures it all out and finds it), lol, I don’t know how I would feel about that.
            You know you will get those nay sayers, it happens, they didn’t find what you have found. You still have a lot of adjustments to make, I’m sure, but again, to see an attempt to solve the poem is refreshing. Hopefully, when searchers post their solves, it will begin with, “the poem gave me this spot, this is how I got there”, and not, ‘Purple Mountain in Yellowstone is hoB because purple and yellow is brown, and there is a canyon with warm waters near by”.
            Whether your solve is right or wrong, I believe you are starting to get it…

          • Yeah I hear ya.

            I post because I like to talk. I try to post along with a detailed reasoning for the thought.

            My goal is not to try and force my view on others, but to just start discussions really. If people chose not to agree, that is fine as long as they give a reason (I dislike single comment disagreements).

            But in the end it does not matter to me at all even if nobody agrees. The thing is, until the chest is found, nobody can claim if an idea is correct or wrong. You just read it and either follow similar thinking or not. Clearly after almost 8 years nobody has the chest, so perhaps it is time to discuss new things and stop rehashing the old stuff that happens each year new people come aboard.

            After working on this for almost 4 years, I know it isn’t as simple as we think at first. Just like Lug pointed out an issue with #23, the same can be said about every single word in the poem. There are millions of places WWWH’s, sure it can be solved over thousands of trial and error attempts, or we can do what FF said and use the hints in TTOTC.

            One thing I want to mention about my post. Getting to page 23 and counting words/characters is not exactly how it works. You have to understand the poem and follow it exactly, it changes. But once you do find the connection, TTOTC itself confirms it (I did not say how it confirms it because that is too much to give away). The text on page 23 does confirm it though :0 Same with all other linked pages.

          • Yup, see, 4 years not wasted. For me, it’s the little things. The hints that are so much not a hint, that when they come up to mean something, it’s by design. I get 4 layers to the poem, the last being face value. When all said and done, face value has more meaning. Couldn’t see it at the start, but in the end, checks out.

            No need to give any of you solve away, it was probably a lot of work, everyone that’s been in this for a time knows that. With me, I just don’t give away info that is needed to pinpoint the spot, someone can get to the area, but to not know the rest, they won’t find. That is why I say numbers. They are a must, especially if you see the forest out there. a number system will get you through the trees, be hard to find any points of reference out there without them. And, with the poem not having an “X”, people will overlook the obvious, the numbers. He said 9 clues will take you to the chest, he never said there are only 9 clues in the poem. You are right, the poem does flow, from start to finish.

            23 is part of the story, it will come up. 22 also. So does E. Sloane, Skippy, and some not mentioned. There is a lot scattered around, I guess that’s why so many different solves.

    • WyMustIGo –

      I waited to respond in case others wanted to do so, like the several people on this site that have talked extensively about 23.

      To me, what you are doing you can do with many of the lines as I will illustrate using your own words.

      Jenny doesn’t seem to want to pose my questions to Fenn. Who knows he might have told her not to get specific anymore. I am left talking to you in the form of What If.

      What if I posed the question “Mr Fenn can a person who reads English but cannot count solve the clues in your poem?” What if Fenn replied with something like Yes a person need not count in order to solve the clues in my poem. Would you still follow this line of thinking as outlayed in your comment above?

      I do not mind that people find all these ways to use the number 23, or any numbers, but you must realize that since there are only 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 and 9 they are going to:
      1. Come up repeatedly
      2. Seem, at times, attractive beyond coincidence.

      Finally, are you aware that in your comment above:
      23rd word is KEEPS
      80 words Later NOT
      23 letters after that HINT

      The first paragraph as referenced above ends on that 23 plus 80 plus 23rd word HINT

      That must mean that you ARE giving us a hint since you keep it not.

      Lugnutz Dodge
      PS. How’m I doing?

      • Wy is just in the beginning stages of seeing this as a solve, Lug. Has a way to go, but you have to agree, at least it’s looking at a way to solve the poem. Right or wrong, that puts the attempt years ahead of those that are solving for clues.
        You are right Lug, they do come up to give solutions beyond coincidence. The repeating part, hmmm, too many combinations. I think it’s in the way you find them and the context. But that’s me.
        (0 doesn’t come into play, IMO).

      • I know Lugs, I only posted one of them.

        This isn’t a new revalation for me. Last year when I was banned at Jenny’s I complained, but what it did was keep me off the forums for almost a year giving me a lot of time to focus again.

        I started in 2014 with all the newbie places and failed. Came back in late 2015 and in mid 2016 I started to get some what I thought were solid solves. In May/June 2017 I had a good one, good enough to convince one searcher who been looking since 2011. They agreed so much that they went to look on their own dime (I was sick, doctor would not let me go, last time I was there was in 2016. We did not find the chest, but I wanted to know if the chest was ever there (not confirmation of a solve). So I emailed FF back and forth a few times, he never answered me, but he did say “Look around you… you are in a desert” (paraphrased). Less than 20 hours later he made the desert comment, so right then and there I knew I was wrong (for the curious, I was not in the red desert, I was south of Castle Gardens next to the clay city and Sarcophagus Butte at the end of 136 (Gas Hill Rd) and start of Dry Creek Rd at the Lucky MC mine). We found a very old nook/tiny 12 foot deep cave, more like a cranny really. It can only be seen if you climb the butte and look down over the edge). Anyway, I admitted I was wrong and that was that. Meanwhile the next two weeks I changed the ending of that solve by re-ordering my clues. This time I ended in the mountains and had a new spot. I sent it to FF, no response except to tell me not to send any more solves because his email wasn’t secure. Then came July and pretty much all communication stopped, my place did not change.

        So since July I have been back at the poem to prepare for June 2018. It was around August when I started to find out what the connections to TTOTC mean, and the patterns to get them. At this point I am just about done making final adjustments.

        I posted a picture taken near my blaze here:

        http://forum.hintofriches.com/forum/the-hint-of-riches/1778-thor-s-first-contest-instructions-and-submission-thread-only?p=1850#post1850

        I sent those to Forrest back in July I think, no response of course. But I no longer send anything detailed about my solves at his request. I thought the request was odd because I been sending solutions since 2015 or so and it was never a problem. I only send them because I thought he was interested in how searchers were doing with the poem since he could never test it.

        Anyway, there are many more connections that I did not mention. The only reason I started with page 23 is because that is where the very first line in stanza one sent me. And the lead in sentence (just before the poem) I believe is one of the first hints. It is kind of funny because it is jumpstarting the learning curve 🙂

        There are many chapters that are big, some near the beginning, some near the end (Teachers with Ropes is huge).

        I found the hints a long time ago, but it took a long time to connect it to the poem in such a way that I can use the same algorithms per say to handle other clues too.

        Once all that is done, you still need to tie everything to real geography. It is a ton of work as I am sure you can imagine.

      • BTW, one thing for sure, it is not a coincidence. Unfortunately I can’t prove it without providing details I will not provide. I did give enough info that someone can figure things out, it isn’t as simple as counting words.

        The thing is, when you know what to do, it TELLS you in such a way that there is zero doubt that you did not arrive at the hint by coincidence. I wish I could say more, but honestly I am not trying to sell anyone a book, they can decide for themselves.

        23 is also an important prime number btw.

        • WY –

          I like the effort and ingenuity of your theory.

          I do have some concerns with some of the statements you have made which seem contradictory, so I hope you can take the time to clarify:

          You quoted FF as saying “The chapters in my book have very subtle hints but are not deliberately placed to aid the seeker” but then later go on to say “I really wish I could say more because not only does the poem tie directly to hints, but when you do what he tells us to do with those book sections, there are things that appear that make it pretty darn obvious that it was not a coincidence”. Additionally, much like your premise about the sentence prior to the start of the poem (does it mean the poem needs to be followed correctly, or does it mean the clues need to be followed correctly?), one can argue that FF is saying in the quote listed that the chapters are not deliberately placed OR that he is saying that the hints are not deliberately placed; However, either interpretation seems to invalidate your whole theory of the deliberateness of FF’s word/hint/chapter placement. In other words, if the poem is telling the seeker to go to the page/chapter/word in TTOTC book, that seems to be the epitome of deliberate, hence contrary to the quote from FF you referenced.

          You later go on to give your opinion that “it is very clear that the chapters are out of order” and further opine that “the clues in the poem are too”. Your second opinion seems contrary to the following quotes from FF: “The first clue in the poem is begin it where warm waters halt” and “You should start with the first clue and follow the others consecutively to the treasure. Hints in the book are not that organized” and “Well, in my book there’s a poem, like I said. And there are nine clues in the poem. And the clues are in consecutive order.”

          Can you elaborate on how you are not contradicting yourself in the examples above?

          • “Emily, All of the information you need to find the treasure is in the poem. The chapters in my book have very subtle hints but are not deliberately placed to aid the seeker. Good luck in the search. F”
            4/4/13

          • @Ken – The CHAPTERS are not deliberately placed, the hints are. You need to read the quote properly, the subject is chapters, not hints, the verb applies to the subject. Pretty straight forward.

            @Bowmarc – The chapters are out of order if you read from page 1 to the end. The poem sends you in a different order. When you arrive at the correct page, there is a way to know that it is not a coincidence that you arrived at the spot. Forrest even does a few funny things. That is the part I will not elaborate on because everyone would easily discover the rest.

            What I will say is that it appears that the poem instructs you not only on where to go (one example was the word count), but what to do when you get there. When you do it, it becomes clear that it is no accident. The process works with multiple clues, not just 23. Wish I could say more, but what I posted works. Creative thinking (and paying attention to every word in detail in the poem) and a lot of hard work, someone can figure it out.

            A good excersize is to convert the entire book to digital format, it is worth the effort. But I will warn you that formatting matters, by formatting I mean word wrap, and the same page numbers with the same text that match the book).

          • Wy, it is clear that you have put a lot of work into studying TTOTC as it relates to the poem. It could ultimately prove to be a correct way to tackle it. Without the chest who knows?

            Thanks for sharing. I honestly believe that sharing our thoughts here is a good thing and people should be less afraid to do so. I know the blogs are mostly for entertainment but it is hard to say how much of an impact peoples ideas are having on others even if a small amount. One statement that someone makes could spark a searcher to think differently and maybe in a good way. That being said, I have found that many won’t believe theories or methods that others have unless they have come up with them themselves.

            If I were the one to find the treasure I think I may post the correct solve as theory first just to see how many people will blow it off or argue how it doesn’t work 🙂

          • WY – Ok, I kinda see the point now of stressing chapters versus hints, but am still not able to ride the backwards bike…LOL.

            The trouble I am still having with your premise is that what FF has defined as chapters contain the hints that you are numerically equating. FF must have had to deliberately place each chapter so that the hints you are finding within said chapters align with your theory because the sentences, paragraphs, etc. of that chapter make up the content of what FF is telling us within his titled chapters.

            I suppose FF could always go off on a tangent about anything he wanted to despite the chapter title because he makes his own rules, so deliberately placing a hint within a random chapter at a precise spot could validate your distinction between chapters and hints.

            Interesting indeed.

            Have you tried to rearrange the chapters of the book based upon how the lines of the poem are revealing the hints? In other words, if you rearrange the chapters in the order that the lines from the poem dictate, does that reinforce that the clues in the poem are consecutive as FF has stated?

          • Wy…your posts are interesting in regards to another method of trying to decipher the clues. Kudos for the time you have put into it. I just do not believe that is the route to take.
            There are always alternate/opposing interpretations of what Fenn says as has been shown for years.
            His reply to Emily is a great example.
            This is a treasure hunt that requires deciphering the clues in Fenn’s poem. He has informed us that there are “subtle” hints in TTOTC that will help with the clues…so I think that the “hints” are the subject of interest. If they(hints) are not deliberately placed…that makes them fit the definition of subtle…along with how obscure or vague they may be.
            Keep on trucking and good luck.
            Simplify….

          • Ken

            I am not disagreeing with you but Fenn wasn’t necessarily telling us to simplify. He .at be giving a clue, and said he was, and the word Simplify may be the clue.

            It’s curious in that it sounds like a potential Fennerism like Flutterby. Perhaps we should think about what the word might represent.

            Like simple fly.
            Or perhaps simply fly

            Lugnutz

          • Lug;

            Or you could try not to complicate it, and take him at his word – Simplify – Just a thought – JDA

          • Hey Lugnutz…that’s a good thought for sure. There seems to be something more there than meets the eye. That is why I ended with…simplify. Who the heck knows !

          • Best we can do is come up with ideas, the sad thing about the chase is that if the finder does not want to tell, we may never know where it was or the solution 🙁

            I really appreciate the comments, even if they do not agree with me. I am not out to try and convince anyone, all I did was provide one example that works just to show, there are more, but honestly I cannot prove it is right or wrong, so I like to just get people thinking.

            I try to do it without a complete solve because I do not claim to have one of those that I would share. Besides, sharing a solve is a sure way to get a boot in the butt and eat crow! LOL

            Anyway, I appreciate the feedback and noted all the replies good or bad. There isn’t much more for me to say about it, just worth pondering, it might help someone. Maybe I am close but missed something and it makes a lightbulb go on for another searcher 🙂

            Peace

          • @Ken, disagree with your comment,” This is a treasure hunt that requires deciphering the clues in Fenn’s poem.”
            With his new 6 questions with Jenny, it seems that the info to decipher all the clues is not in the poem. He said you need to go out there and find, paraphrasing, BotG. So, the info to decipher all the clues is just not given to us. All the poem does is gives us a spot. To get to the spot, we have to start somewhere, wwwh, and proceed to the spot. Into the canyon. The 3rd clue is not solvable. You’re looking at BotG. Same with 4th.
            The only way to decipher the first clue, wwwh, is by solving the poem and getting that final spot. That is why he said, you won’t know you have the correct wwwh until you have the chest.
            Another comment, “If you are able to decipher the first few clues in the poem, you can find the treasure chest”.
            The only way to decipher the first few clues is by solving the poem, mapping your path, starting at the beginning, and following that path. With the end spot, the start would be obvious, following the path to the canyon and onward is just following the path. The 3rd clue must be smaller. Something Google Earth cannot see. Only on your path will you recognize what it is. Nothing in the poem tells you what it is. Same with forth. Beings how he doesn’t know for sure if the searcher has the first four clues or not, tends to the assumption that it must be the blaze. It’s the only thing that he has said will throw the searcher off. Since he knows the clues, it must have been a picture. The searcher didn’t actually know though. Any other form of communication to f about the 4th clue, f would know for sure if they knew or not. Only a picture. Which also means it’s smaller, or Google Earth cannot see it. BotG.
            We no longer are looking to solve each clue. That is the wrong approach, need to find the spot by solving the poem.

            Lug’s right, he said simplify, but he didn’t say what to simplify. He could be talking about the solve, the poem, the clues, his car rental, his life, we don’t know. To use that statement to reference that he is talking about the solving of the poem would not be accurate. Simplify the clues? Pretty simple when the info is not given to solve a clue. You can’t.
            So many solves out there that the searcher thought they solved all the clues before going BotG, all impossible now because the info is not there to be solved. Like I said, the one thing that searchers have not come to realize for a winning solve is that all the clues cannot be solved. Unless you have solved the poem, and have your spot from it, you cannot decipher the first clue. You basically have to be done to start…

          • Charlie, Charlie;

            So many FACTS stated by you. I find it amazing that after over two years at this, I am just now learning of these FACTS that you so eloquently state in your posts.

            I am sure that the newbees will be glad to read all of these FACTS. With these newly disclosed FACTS, they just might solve it.

            This is of course, Just MY OPINION – JDA

          • Charlie – you said “You basically have to be done to start…”.

            This reminds me of an error in Microsoft Excel about a circular reference.

          • In all seriousness Charlie, let’s explore some logic around “You basically have to be done to start…”.

            What if that were true in some way?

            Let’s say I had a solve and a clear “location” or “spot” that I knew was correct, but I didn’t find the chest or have any real “feedback confirmation” the location was correct. However, apply a special way of looking at the location (compared to other locations) like a Tarry Point circle. If one overlays it over the location and it somehow ties back to a perfect theoretical start point then…that is the 100% validation that the spot is correct. See link here for a Tarry Point circle example:

            https://postimg.org/image/min3ulojb/

            So back to the counterintuitive “You basically have to be done to start…”. I guess one could say that’s possible. Would it explain why this whole chase has been so incredibly difficult to solve?

            Above contains points that are my opinion, other points that may not be my opinion, and, finally, other points that make absolutely no logical sense at all. IMO

          • Charlie….lol. Folks are going to interpret every aspect of this hunt in a myriad of ways. Just in this thread alone one can distinguish the variety of view points.
            It is fairly clear that folks individually latch onto a potential idea/avenue and hang on for dear life. Some eventually run the gamut and realize it’s a bust…but some refuse to “adjust”. That is the nature of the beast.
            Your X marks the spot theory in relation to the poem just does not fit for me. I’ll stick with actually working on solving the clues and what they mean. Fenn has made a lot of comments in this regard…so…I’m sticking with that approach.
            Thanks for sharing Charlie, and good luck.

    • WyMustIGo,

      The definitions you gave of IT which included; “an action”, is just that “an action” to start solving the poem. Further in the same stanza it says, “And take it” is also and action. The first “IT” is to start, and the second “IT” is to go.

      I’m not a fan of using numbers at all. Yes I am a purist, I listen to the words in the poem as F has indicated to read the poem over and over, [ not a quote, but common knowledge].

      I’m not making any effort to twist words by using other definitions for a certain word. I take the words in the context of the poem.

      Yes, I have read the book, TTOTC a couple of times, but I primarily use the poem. The words in the poem gives the directions, if not followed one will get lost. My solve does not consist of theories, just directions given.

      I can only say wait until spring. 🙂

      • WyMustIGo,

        I also wanted to add, you said, “it is very clear that the chapters are out of order (the clues in the poem are too).”, I completely disagree that the clues in the poem are out of order. That is like saying the stanzas are out of order. This makes a very big quagmire of zigzags and going backwards and forwards.

        My advice for most is not to depend a lot on the books subtle hints, but put a great deal of emphasis on the poem. There are many words and sentences in the book that can create many rabbit holes. Yes there are subtle hints but some of what you think are hints in the book is much like WWWH as there are many, it’s the correct one.

        You also said, “I believe that the poem is multiple layers, at least two.” I say,there is only one layer to the poem, which is a surface map. The 1st & 5th stanzas have no hints or clues they are statements and 1 question.

        All together I wish you luck!

        As always my opinion

        • I follow Forrests advice, he tells us to read the poem and TTOTC over and over to find the hints.

          Also, Forrest tells us that the chapters are NOT in order to aid the searcher. To me that means exactly what it says and that is why I feel that way.

          People misinterpret FF all the time. He never said the hints are not deliberately placed, he said the chapters themselves (that contain the hints) are not deliberately placed.

          We only have the poem and TTOTC, but really just the poem. So it makes sense that we read it properly. Most don’t, they assume the poem is telling us to go down a canyon when the lack of a comma before the conjunction “and” clearly means the waters “halt and take”. Well the same holds true for the chapters statement. The sentence subject is “chapters”, in the poem stanza one subject is “waters”. It is incorrect to think that a poem “thought” ends at a line feed, we need to account for the punctuation (or lack of) otherwise we are messing with his poem.

    • I do not know how accurate most of this is but I do believe that you are right about IT being defined in stanza 1. It is I and I am not FF.

      • No that isn’t exactly what i think.

        Stanza one is a riddle, the answer is “The Memoir” based on the definition of Memoir (which is different than an autobiography).

        I think that stanza one defines IT with IT being a series of steps we are to begin at stanza 2. These steps are multi-layered. You can take the steps within TTOTC itself to get to the hints. The hints verify and remove the vaguness of the clues in the poem. You then marry the clues to a map and take the same steps on the real map.

        You can skip the TTTOT hint step, the poem can be solved with just itself. BUT that would require the process of elimination, it is a brute force effort that could take decades to perform. So it makes sense to use TTOTC hints to not only figure out the clues, but the proper order of the clues. We need to “follow the clues precisely” which means an exact location, but also in order. The clues are contiguous, but that does not mean they are in order. The POEM is in order, if that makes any sense. It is hard to explain this stuff without giving everything away.

        • Thanks Wy for trying to explain, I’ll admit that my gut feel is that your methods sound complex, not necessarily difficult, but complex, opposite of simple. Just another question for ya – so above you’re talking that we must account for punctuation, etc. Can you explain your thoughts about stanza 1 being a riddle? I view a riddle as in the form of a question…yet the punctuation in stanza 1 is clearly not a question mark…the only riddle aspect to me is that the wording makes you wonder what it means…that is what does he mean by hint of riches…or secret where? But the grammar/language are clearly (on the face/straightforward idea) statements, not questions, care to elaborate?

          I sure hope at some point you are able to share more details, the ideas are intriguing, but I too struggle with the ‘subtle hints’ aspect of the book, and you appear to have taken that to the extreme that, IMO, you’re saying there are way more than a couple/few hints in the book, more like 5-9 or more?, is that correct? Or are you just saying you’ve found hints in TTOC based on the ‘instruction’ lines of the poem…is that 2-3 lines or all of them? I can assure you I’m not fishing for details to reverse engineer your approach, this is just discussion.

          Also, really liked that photo with the stumps…unfortunately I’ve seen places that look just like that more than a few times in my years in WY/CO…I’m sure you have more that links to that spot, but we won’t know what that is until you do/don’t have the chest. I’m def not a numbers guy, but I do like to stretch my mind – he was a pilot after all, navigation (using numbers) is very important, so I get it that it is a very plausible possibility. I of course don’t have the answer to how you would get to a precise 10″x10″ square area out of millions of acres in the rocky mountains, but I believe the ‘only way in’ comment has a lot to do with it (no proof of course, as I have yet to land at a spot that fits that in a ‘straightforward’ way). Keeping my options open, this has been interesting.

          • Tbug—

            The riddle may actually be “So why is it that I must go?” Whcih begs the question: should this stanza come BEFORE “As I have GONE alone in there?” hmmmmm.

          • TBug, I found that the poem sent me to TTOTC. I think Stanza one riddle = The Memoir.

            The very first line in the poem tells me “As I went alone in there”. So I searched the book to find out where he was alone in the book. Page 23 is the only place (with exceptions I noted) that you will find “Forrest Fenn”.

            So from “As” to “there” we have 23 characters. After I noticed that the E in there was the 23rd which matched page 23, I looked deeper.

            I found the lead in sentence that appears in TTOTC just before the poem “So I wrote a poem”… If you count that from So to treasure, you get 23 words.

            Go back to page 23, find “Forrest Fenn”, his first name is the 23rd word in the sentence. If you count the remaining characters after his name, there are 23 which again matches the page.

            Now if you process page 23 with the poem, it reveals a hint that kind of links back to the poem, sort of as if to say you are making progress. I did not elablorate on this part because it gives too much away, but I will give you a hint, the formatting in the book matters.

            After that, I then tested this out in other parts of the poem and found similar links, for example there are links to “Teachers with Ropes” on pages 108-109.

            The beauty of it all is that you DO NOT have to use the book to solve it. In no way am I saying the book is required 🙂 However, if you want to take advantage of the hints, the poem appears to be multi-layered in that it maps to the book and to the real world. So Forrest did not lie when he said all you “need” is the poem. He said to read/study the poem and TTOTC. That is all I am doing.

            Important: I am not saying that you count the characters on a line and jump to that page, it doesn’t work that way. The reason I started with page 23 is because the poem said “As I have gone alone in there” and I wanted to see where he went alone. I have a personally made digital copy of the book, so finding things is fast.

            I have no problem if people do not agree, that is cool with me because we cannot prove it is wrong or right, and I like both negative and positive feedback because it might lead to a better understanding.

            Its all good.

          • WY I know your answer, but what was the question! Thanks for those clarifying statements, I get where you’re going. As for the ‘alone’ = his name, I think that is a bit of a leap…but not saying its wrong, just not how I interpret it…you asked ‘where did he go alone’…I would look for the where not his name, but sure, you noticed that his name was only in there once…I think the numbers of letters/words seems arbitrary…are there rules to when you use letters vs. words? I’m a longtime skeptic of number solves, but your ideas are different enough to spark some interest.

            I will admit FFs phrasing, especially very early in the book suggests some odd things might be goin on, but I’m not sure finding coincidences correlates to intention (probability with numbers/alphabet shows funny things can happen very quickly)…not saying you’re wrong…the worst problem I have right now is my book is not in my possession so I can’t look any deeper. I will say I was late to the book party (seems good and bad in that I read a lot here first, and the book came much later), I first heard about the chase in 2013, just got the book in Nov 2017…unfortunately I only got through it once (I gave to my dad who recently had a hematoma and subsequent brain surgery…no need for sympathies, he is doing very well). I do very much intend to do some multiple readings when I get my hands back on them. Anyway, thanks for the replies.

          • Sparrow,
            My interpretation of: So why is it that I must go…..I have done it tired and now I’m week… Everyone must go eventually. He has done many things in life and now he is older and cant do as much as he was able to do (IMO).

  44. Couple more things.

    The lead in sentence states “nine clues that if followed precisely”.

    How do we do things with precision? We measure them, maybe borrow Frosty the ruler?

    But wait WymustIGo, the poem is text, how do we measure text? Ahhh Grasshopper, text is measured with things such as Word counts, character counts, paragraph counts, sentence or line counts, syllable counts. The ones you use are hinted at in the book and in the poem. Poetry is also measured with FEET, but that would require too much special knowledge, so we stick with the basics that even children know.

      • could it be that the word that is key is not in the poem. like a chest with a key, the key is needed to unlock a chest. if the key is separate from the chest then the chest wont open. i wonder if a word that is key is suppose to be combined with the poem to give direction

        • Hi Goldenbrickroad;

          Welcome to the chase. Do I think that the word that is key is found in the poem? Answer = NO.
          Do I think that it must be combined with the poem? Combined? – Not sure what you mean by that. Added to the poem somehow? No, I do not think so.

          Is there somehow a “Theme” to the poem, and the word that is key relates to that “Theme”? then, the answer is yes. JMO – JDA

          • Imagine for a moment that the poem is a very special fabric. Upon very close examination one can see a golden thread running through that fabric. The “Word that is key” is the needle that inter-wove this golden thread within the fabric.

            Too much imagination? Think about it – JDA

          • JDA,
            Are you still in the Wyoming camp of searchers? Actually, this is just a test message to see if my posts are successful.

            Thanks,

          • Seems all my posts have been sent to the twilight zone for the past week One went to JDA and the other one went to Twingem. Wish I could remember now what they were then. Anyway, both are complimentary to JDA who I every confidence in and twingem ho should take up professional writing. JDA if you are the winner in finding the loot I hope I am the first to say congratulations.

          • thanks jda. i agree . I think that the word it can be substituted for a certain word. it reminds me of the smurfs cartoon. the smurfs would say smurf it for me.. meaning get that for me. i think put in means turn in not get out and hike. and why is it that i must go and leave my trove to seek. i have something for that. I might be crazy but it all fits not forcing it. i would share more but fenn said someone will find it this summer and i might have said to much. i want another chance at my solve. my first botg was to short. i had a day before my flight. i slept in my rental and was in the sun one minute and wet cold the next.

  45. WyMustIGO:

    My solution involves a similar back and forth between poem and TToTC. It’s good to see someone else rambling down this path, too. I suspect a lot are but ain’t talking

  46. CharlieM—

    I appreciate your input and interpretation– I sincerely do. I began my search at end of July 2016. For a long time I left the poem as is. One day I noticed a suggestion JDA had made about a riddle beginning with a question. That actually made really good sense to me. He had stated that he had tried putting stanza 5 and 6 on top of the poem so that it ends with “Just take the chest and go in peace”.

    This also made very good sense to me. Now, the poem starts with GO before GONE referring to “I”, and then ends with GO again, except it is YOU who are going— with the chest.

    At first I thought this might be messing with the poem— but I don’t think so, since you are not changing any words, or punctuation. The poem still says the same thing, you are just changing the order of the stanzas.

    I will also add that I have seen strong confirmation that this should be done (stating more would give away a solve I am working on) that I have found very intriguing.

    So, I believe that JDA is suggesting a very valid way of looking at the poem IMO. But as always, all the best to you in your search.

    • Thanks Sparrow for the kudos. I, in turn, should thank Seeker, for I believe that I got the idea from him. And so the wheel turns. I wish that seeker would/could return I miss his input on the poem – JDA

    • Sparrow,

      You said, “The poem still says the same thing, you are just changing the order of the stanzas.” In essence you are moving the stanzas out of order so you can justify putting “go” before “gone”, which is truly changing the poem. Even if you are thinking, saying it, the structure of the poem has changed.

      That in it’s self is what you are doing is moving a clue(s) and/or hints. Didn’t F say that the clues are in consecutive order? If I tried to do what you and JDA are doing I wouldn’t know where to look at the very end to retrieve the TC. Some think the blaze is the last clue just because it says “Look quickly down, your quest to cease,” which is not the case.
      The 4th stanza does not tell you what to look at for the hiding place, the 6th stanza does.

      I say all in a kind way and to each it’s own. 🙂

      As always my opinion.

      • CharlieM;

        You say, “The 4th stanza does not tell you what to look at for the hiding place, the 6th stanza does.”

        The 4th stanza says,
        “If you’ve been wise and found the blaze,
        Look quickly down, your quest to cease,
        But tarry scant with marvel gaze,
        Just take the chest and go in peace.”

        Line 1 says – “If you’ve been wise and found the blaze” This (at least to me” says that if I had figured out what the blaze was therefore I already KNOW what “to look at”. then

        “Look quickly down” When I find the blaze, look quickly down” implying that I should look “below” the blaze, and then, “But tarry scant with marvel gaze,” – don’t spend a lot of time lolly-gaggin’ (Interp.) just “Take the chest and go in peace.” – end of quest, end of clues – period. Or that is how I see it.

        I am sure I will not convince you CharlieM – and that is OK. Part of the fun of the chase is exchanging ideas with those that do not agree with you. Keep smilin’ JDA

  47. CharlieM;

    Dal asked that we move over here – so here I am.

    CharlieM – IF you find Indulgence, then I will gladly give you a bottle of VERY FINE Brandy, and congratulate you, and say, “You were right.”

    As you said: If, on the other hand it is I who find Indulgence, I will enjoy the toast from ya’ 🙂 Happy Hunting…and I do like a fine brandy once in a while – JDA

  48. JDA/CharlieM/Sparrow and anyone else following along on the stanza-reordering idea. If all the clues are in stanzas 2, 3 and 4 (as I believe), it ~may~ not make any difference if you choose to read the poem in the order 5-6-1-2-3-4. Stanzas 2-4 would still be in order and contiguous, so the clues within would still be in the correct order. Forrest has made no stipulations regarding the ordering of hints, or for that matter ever admitted there are hints in the poem at all (though I think most searchers believe there are).

    Now, where you can get into trouble is if there are any critical hints that are not wholly contained within a stanza. Just as an example, if a hint happened to span stanzas 4 and 5, the seemingly harmless reordering that Sparrow and JDA suggest would destroy that hint. I’m not saying there IS such a hint in those stanzas, just pointing out one scenario where harm would result.

    • If there is such a problem Zap, I have not encountered it.

      In the VERY BEGINNING – over 2 years ago; I used the “hints” in stanza’s 5 and 6 to direct me towards wwwh. “Your effort will be worth the cold” and “…brave and in the wood” told me that my search was to be in the mountains. Which mountains, I was not sure yet, but in the mountains.

      Then – “Alone in there” from stanza #1 told me that I had to enter (go into) a special place “In the mountains”

      Next step – I figured out that “The wood” of “If you are brave and in the wood” – led me to a very specific geographical place in Wyoming. Finding my wwwh was fairly easy from there. Once I had my wwwh I quickly found the canyon, and my hoB. Two days later my “Meek place” and my “creek” and my “END” place. My end place gave new meaning to the “Brave” and in the “Wood” – “In the mountains” – It all began to fall in place – At least for me.

      Steps 1,2 & 3 of solving the poem – or something like that. 🙂 JDA

          • That’s just a crossing. It looks bad but it’s actually only a foot deep and not what it seems

        • I guess I am slow – It took a second look to see the “IT” written out on the wall with water seepage – cute – cute – If just might be “IT” – JDA

          • Yes it is. I’ve went there. Upside down y underneath.
            Getting to this point I had to start at wwwh and correctly follow the clues. The entire first solve is just to get you on the playing field for botg. Once I was there the poem changed and had to be solved again to the next marker. Then the next, then the next. This is one of the reasons it took a long time to write the poem, he wasn’t just writing, he was setting up the playing field.
            My opinions anyhow

    • I agree that the order of the stanza’s do not mean as much as long as you keep the clue stanza’s in order and separate from the hint stanza’s. That being said I believe that the I in the first stanza may not be FF and the I in later stanza’s could be FF. The theory is that the stanza’s sound similar to throw us off a little but talking about different things. As I have gone alone in there being something different. Why must I go being FF. Not sure if it’s right but it’s one way I have been looking at the poem.

  49. Every stanza in the poem are relevant to finding the treasure except for stanza 5. It starts with a question, “So why is it that I must go and leave my trove for all to seek?” That question IMO does not help one in finding the treasure.

    His question can lead to things like:
    To share his wealth
    To get people out to explore
    Or both.

    I believe the treasures and artifacts that F has found were through exploration based on records and geographic locations from past history. I believe he wanted to share his experiences buy creating a lost treasure with vague information, possibly like the little information he had to work with.

    I believe that is what stanza 5 is for, its related to the treasure but will not guide to the TC location.

    As always my opinion.

    • CharlieM;

      Stanza #5:
      So why is it that I must go And leave my trove for all to seek?
      The answers I already know,
      I’ve done it tired, and now I’m weak.

      Lines 1& 2 of this stanza – which I joined purposely – has “go” and “leave” in the same sentence. Isn’t this a bit odd?
      Could “go” and “leave” = leaves? Could leaves be a hint?

      What about the meanings of “tired” and “weak”? You do not think that these two words, and their definitions could be hints? I certainly do. Put your imagination to work a bit. Tired can mean wanting to lie down – A desire to be prone (or close to the ground). Weak can mean “watered down” like a “watered down” drink Could these two terms together be hinting to the searcher that the treasure is low to the ground, in a wet or “Watered-down” area – possibly a wet and boggy area? Sure seems like hints to me.

      Who knows though? Maybe you are correct. JMO – JDA

      • JDA,

        With all of the excavations and at a time diving for ruins, do you think that, “I’ve done it tired” is hard work that F has done through most of his finds? I know I would be tired from excavating and diving. I know about diving, and I’ve been tired after a good dive. Moving dirt is not easy.

        As for, “now I’m weak” I believe when most are 80, you are not as strong as you were in the past.

        I don’t think there are any clues. Didn’t F say “simplify” a while back? My imagination I believe does not take into account going beyond the meaning of the words for stanza 5 and of course stanza 1. I strongly believe there are no hints or clues in either stanza. If you thinks so, does it not create complicated rabbit it holes?

        As I said before I am a poem purist and I try not to overly complicate with hidden meanings. Parts of the poem is a map and there IMO is nothing in both of the stanzas 1 & 5 that has no indication of movement.

        Of course to each his own.
        IMO always

        CharlieM

    • CharlieM—

      It’s amazing how varied everyone’s ideas are on this blog. And that’s a good thing. I actually think that “So why is it that I must go?”is very important. Being able to answer “why?” may be the key step in finding out “where” the treasure is. “Why” may be more important than “where” in the end.

      It’s very interesting to compare these sentences:
      SO why is it that I must GO?
      SO hear me all and listen GOod.
      Just take the chest and GO in peace.

      I don’t know Charlie— seems kind of important to me. All IMO of course.

  50. Just messing around today with flutterby…

    As I have gone alone in there
    As I gave one a lone tin here
    As I gave one a lone thin hair

    and with my treasures bold,
    and wi(d)th by measures told,

    I can keep my secret where,
    I can weep my secret care,

    and hint of riches new and old.
    and hint of niches rewand (ruined) old.

    LOL 🙂

  51. Hi JDA — replying here to your last post on “Theory for When Forrest Hid…” thread. I feel there may be a hint that spans stanzas, but it won’t be fouled by the ordering you’re using, so no real harm.

    I guess the question is why alter the stanza ordering? Is it specifically because you feel the poem/puzzle should start with a question? Or is it that you want your hint stanzas grouped together like the clue stanzas? On this latter point, I will add that I am confident there are hints in all six stanzas, and since Forrest has basically said that his hints are not presented in any particular order (recognizing that he’s never actually admitted there are hints in the poem), reordering the stanzas wouldn’t really accomplish anything in my case.

    • I reordered the stanza’s to put the question – “So why is it that I must go And leave my trove for all to seek?” at the beginning. – since most riddles begin with a question.

      It also seemed logical that: “But tarry scant with marvel gaze,
      Just take the chest and go in peace.” was the last sentence.
      (Find Indulgence, and leave)

      Once I had decided that the “clues” were in stanza’s 2,3 and 4 – this meant that stanza’s 5,6 and 1 had to be hints- – -since Forrest had said something like it would be foolish to discount any of the words in the poem (Paraphrasing) – and hints usually DO come before the thing that is being hinted at (the clues)

      As it turns out I used the 6 stanza’s in my 5,6,1,2,3,4 order unconsciously in the beginning. Elements in stanza’s 5 and 6 told me where to look “in there” from stanza 1, and then I began my journey at wwwh.

      Long answer to a short question – sorry – JDA

      • I thought it may have something to do with the order of the hints or the multiple laps through the poem. Am I right in thinking that it sounds like though that you just like the way it reads this way and the order doesn’t really matter to you?

        • I used all six stanza’s for lap one through the poem. After that, I find that I need only follow the “Clues” in stanza’s 2,3 and 4 for the next couple of laps. For the final lap, I again use both clues and hints – all six stanza’s – Does that help? – JDA

  52. Question….
    When googling and reading, I sometimes come across a Mr. Fenn’s poem which has been quoted wrong.
    Ok, that is not a surprise…gee, it is the Internet.
    Yet, one poem, which is wrong, looks just like it came out of his book. You see the colored map and everything. It looks copywrited and everything.
    I read ….
    “Answer” instead of “answers”.
    Anybody else notice this?

    • this “answers” vs. “answer” was addressed many years ago… I looked for a few minutes, but couldn’t find ff quote about it- i feel it was like it was something like “you decide which one is right…” but that’s probably not even close… i’m so sorry i can’t find it… but the discrepancy was definitely addressed when Too Far To Walk first came out.

      • Hi Leigh: I think you’ve got the gist of it. Forrest said one was a simple typo, and something like “you choose” in response to the searcher who posed the question as to which was correct. My recollection was that the searcher was considering a solution that depended on letter counts, and thus answer vs. answers probably made a difference. Forrest’s answer strongly suggested that answer vs. answers did not make a material difference.

        • Sparrow: certainly your prerogative. I choose not to chase red herrings because Forrest says there aren’t any. I think the answer/answers difference will end up having no material relevance to the chase.

          • What would be something else is if “answer(s)” was a word that is key.

            Just a question. Could someone “start” a poem, bury a treasure, add an “s” to a word in the poem and then call the poem “written”?

            lol.

  53. It’s kind of interesting. Sometimes adding an “s” to a word completely changes it, and the “s”‘is needed. Like million and million(s). The “s” makes a huge difference.

    Sometimes adding an “s” is unnecessary and wrong if you do so. Example:
    1 moose: “Look at that moose”.
    2 of them: do you say “look at those moose’s?” Adding an “s” is incorrect English.

    Is “the answers I already know” proper English? Kind of interesting actually.

    • sometimes adding an s sounds like z…

      “As I” = “Az I” = “A” is I = Iz =
      Eyes have gone alone in there.

    • I had been thinking that the possible meaning(s) might include “The (Candy) Ann swears I already know” . . .
      but I didn’t think it would be helpful in finding the TC.

      No big deal, as far as I’m concerned. I’m not gonna cry
      over spilled info.

      All IMO.

  54. or… start at the beginning-

    As I have gone alone in there
    And with…

    there and with = therewith =the ruth= Ruth Hall Museum of Paleontology (Abiquiu NM)

    or “the” is “a word that is key- alone in there = aloNEIN THEre =89
    (ff said something about writing backwards)
    highway 89 into yellowstone? and architecturally- maamoheht –
    m in warm to a in canyon- a in 2nd far- m in home- left to oh eht (if “the” was a word that is key, you just turn it)- hint in book? i forget the page by now- but i remember what i thought- end of chapter in TTOTC about not going to college, and getting kicked out of somewhere fARM-toMarket… and not knowing what road to turn, and turned left ( oh eht)

    or As= big Arsenic Springs NM

    or my treasures (only 9 letter word)
    my ccret (to cease, to seek)
    my trove

    look, i’m just trying to start a non cryptic dialog. someone needs to solve the poem. and i am nowhere close. proximity nor honing in on how to solve…

    • “you will ignore THE poem at your own peril”
      “THE thrill of THE chase”
      “THE complexity of THE search”

      “All of my stories…”
      “olive” (jars)

      so many possibilities.
      i have hundreds of poems with notes… and drawings… someone has got to solve… someone has taken one of their simply brilliant simple idea and kept going… ?? has been within 200 ft. i hope it’s an underdog.

  55. or, of course, where i finally am, begin it “where” (warm waters halt)
    “and” take … sooooo many ways to read, understand… anyone want a crack? for more ideas?

    “the poem… part 6”

    • If you don’t relax, y’all may stress-out too much to enjoy, in good health, the end of the hunt. But while y’all are in (hopefully) good enough health, I want to thank y’all for
      the opportunity. It has, at times, been fun and interesting.

      The above is my opinion. Y’all’s probably diFFers.

  56. Just like: There’ll be no paddle up your creek, reminds me you’re up craps creek without a paddle.
    Water high reminds me of another idiom “come hell or high water”. If i’m reading this correctly (which I will never find out) I would say you don’t have to cross water to get to the treasure because of the reversal of the words.

  57. Just like: There’ll be no paddle up your creek, reminds me you’re up craps creek without a paddle.
    Water high reminds me of another idiom “come hel* or high water”. If i’m reading this correctly (which I may never find out) I would say you don’t have to cross water to get to the treasure because of the reversal of the words.
    It appears Forrest likes to make up his own idioms and date back to late 1800’s and early 1900’s.

    Tarry and scant seem to be words not used that much today…
    Sorry for using the Hel* word, I didn’t know it was not allowed.

  58. I’ve created a couple videos on Youtube that explain a theory I have been working on for almost a year.

    In them I discuss how the poem might be the table of contents for “The Thrill of the Chase” book. I give a detailed example, and also why I think it works.

    Is it required to solve the poem? Nope! The poem does not require the book unless you want the OPTIONAL hints in the book. Well I show you how that is working out for me. I am way beyond the point I describe, but I hope this helps someone else, or at least spurs your imagination.

    Regards…
    https://youtu.be/vibV1Mqtd4g – Part 1
    https://youtu.be/aNm7mUKDUHM – Part 2
    https://youtu.be/91-_z_nyJ0c – Part 3

    • BTW, I might do a followup to answer some questions I received. Meanwhile please keep in mind that this is not intended to be a solve, it is strictly to help jump start you (pun intended).

    • WyMustIGo,

      I haven’t had enough time to go through all your videos yet but your tone & candor are spot on!

      You are providing something valuable to the search community.

      As Seanm is to the “poem purist”; so are you to the TTOTC & hints — providing clarity…

      Totally cool!

      “Voices crying in the wilderness”

      GCG

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