The Nine Clues…Part Sixty Nine

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This is the place to discuss the nine clues…For instance:
What are the nine clues…
Is the first clue “Begin it where warm waters halt” ?

543 thoughts on “The Nine Clues…Part Sixty Nine

  1. 3rd. Bam

    I’m at the juncture of thinking that to figure out the correct wwwh one doesn’t need to figure out the details of warm water, how it halts and special geographical locations that pertain to wwwh. IMO, that won’t get us the correct wwwh.

    Instead, the correct wwwh can be found after first figuring out the correct answer to stanza one. Then, there’s only one wwwh in play nearby.

    • Fun,
      I’m following your thought process.
      But I have to ask, why are we attempting to narrow down a single WWwatersH?
      Sure, may have thought water{s} can be a single body of water… ex. the waters of the Madison river. Yet later on in the poem ‘water’ high, is mentioned… singular to water{s}
      In your thought process, and many others have posted similar ideas, seems to want to find a single source for WWwatersH. Are we attempting to force a location to be small. But have been told; Your ‘destination’ is small, but ‘its location’ is huge, and fenn was looking at the big picture.

      I’ll add imo, ‘destination’ to me is the chest, and ‘its location’ to mean the same, is huge… so is it possible that, a very large location can be describing a very small location at the same time?
      Disclaimer; to follow that train of thought, you have to consider that stanza 4, 5 and 6, contain actual ‘clues’ that will bring you to that “destination”

      So here’s a simple, straightforwards, easy to understand yet still difficult to comprehend thought… stanza 1; “gone alone in there” might be referring to ‘the RM’s’ and not so much a specific spot… not yet anyways.

      Think of it like this, if you will. I give you a map with no labels, no roads, no airports, etc. just symbols of water ways [ in blue ], woodland [in green], mountains, valleys, canyons [in brown], open plains etc. etc.
      Can you still find your way around? Do you need to know names of cities and highways and states etc. to travel by?
      “…a map is a map, the more detailed a map the better…”
      What “details” are we looking for?

      Just a different perspective.

      • I’m following what you’re saying and asking. I go with you’ve got to think the right things quote from forrest. If the right detail in stanza one then all the convoluted ways could be dispensed with.

        I’ll still be using a map with names of things on it.

        I don’t get your thought are we trying to force an area to be small. And then how that gets lumped in with water high, a correct wwwh and destination small but location huge.

        Yes, As I’ve gone alone in there could be the RM’s. And the rest of the lines in that stanza could cleverly wrap up exactly where in the RM’s one is suppose to start the Chase.

        • It’s about the WhatIF’s… What if all the waters are needed to be know and not a specific small are, which eventually leads to heavy loads and “water” high.
          My thoughts are; Does the first clue’s full reference need to be a small area?
          So that is what I mean by forcing the first clue to a small physical area.
          Maybe we should be looking at a place where searcher may have been, deciphered the “first two clues”, because they told fenn where they were, however the second clue’s reference might be the actual location.

          This only works if don’t try and make something to be a clue, such as: a word, line or sentence. It’s when the poem is solved as far as it can go… “beforehand” … is when we should start to see or count out 9 clues references.

          Another words; if we only look at the poem to ‘find a clue’ and read it that way… we automatically force something to be a clue.

          “Someone unfamiliar with your poem receives a message that says “meet me where warm waters halt, somewhere in the mountains north of Santa Fe”. Would they be able to work out where to go? If they can’t, would they need the whole poem, another stanza, or just a line or word to help them on their way? ~Phil Bayman 
          There are a few words in the poem that are not useful in finding the treasure Phil, but it is risky to discount any of them. You over simplify the clues. There are many places in the Rocky Mountains where warm waters halt, and nearly all of them are north of Santa Fe. Look at the big picture, there are no short cuts. f”

          I think this is a powerful message as to; “over simplifying the clues” Fenn literally tells us there are many ~ Look at the big picture… there are no short cuts.
          Isn’t that what many are doing? Attempting to get around the ‘many’ where warm water{s} halt, by making/forcing it to be a singular small spot.

          Now think about the words “Follow” and “lead”… is follow meant to “travel”? is lead meant to “physically” be lead? Or could both words mean; to understand [ hear and listen] precisely to what is being told.

          “I don’t want to broaden the clues and hints I’ve written about by pointing them out. What surprises me a little is that nobody to my uncertain knowledge has analyzed one important possibility related to the winning solve. ff”
          “Nice thinking halo, I didn’t count the clues until the poem had been finalized. Although I changed it a few times over the months I think the number stayed about the same.f”

          Do we really know what fenn is referring to what a clue or hint actually is… or do we over simplify clues to make it easier read.

          As far as the map part of my comment… the question was… could you find your way around a map that only shows physical landscape? Ignore the labels… All maps are designed the same way… even hand made maps. N is always top, S is always bottom E is always right, W is always left. [disclaimer; land maps]
          If you removed all labels from the TFTW map, can you still understand it? Know what a river is, a lake, mountains, woodland, directions etc.
          If you hope for clues to present themselves far into the ages for future generations to understand… are labels needed?
          When Joseph Meek climb the mountain to get his bearing and find a route on which way to go [ a common practice for the time ] … was there any labels to follow or simply understanding what was being seen.

          Just alternative thought to the norm.

          • Yeah, I don’t agree with your analysis, Seeker when you bring up f’s quote of the ‘meet me where warm waters halt’ question by Phil. I don’t see how his question adds up to your analysis that many are “forcing” clues to single out the correct wwwh. One need not assume that when a searcher figures on a particular wwwh that they think the poem steers them to that they are “forcing” a clue or not looking at the big picture. I think “forcing” a clue terminology in this manner is not a good phrase to use.

            It’s like saying if you take more time to find/figure a clue that works for your theory in the field that then you’re “forcing” a clue.

          • You still need to consider the Water{s} in stanza 2 to the water in stanza 3 to understand this line of thinking. I could argue that both the Waters and Water are one on the same. Should that be true… then starting out to look for a single small spot for water{s} could be a force fit for a clue that isn’t.
            But in all honestly, as I explained before, it falls down to what is an actual “clue reference” means ~ Whatever the reference is, to how many “piece of information” is needed, or how many “clues make a reference / a clue refers to.”
            [ I put those in quote for emphasis to my point only ]

            lol. as you might have heard… I’m not a big believer to 9 line being 9 clues. So I look at the poem completely different. Maybe you’re right, force fit might be the wrong term to use… I’m simply wondering, are we reading the poem correctly, and if not, then it seems we make up what we hope a clue should be in our minds. [ How about “unintentional fitting” ]

            With all that said… in your line of thinking, I would agree on your perspective… I’m just not convinced its the right way of reading the poem. Yet, anyways.

          • Your assuming that with my line of thinking I don’t have water in stanza 2 as not the same as stanza 3. I could have them as the same and it doesn’t necessarily mean that since I looked for a single small spot for water that I’m force fitting a clue.

            Remember my beginning point this morning, I started by not looking for wwwh. Kinda hard to be called out for looking for a specific wwwh when one posts that maybe getting the correct wwwh can only be achieved, IMO, by correctly analyzing something totally different that comes earlier in the poem.

      • Seeker, I think you need to rethink this statement of yours, “So here’s a simple, straightforwards, easy to understand yet still difficult to comprehend thought… stanza 1; “gone alone in there” might be referring to ‘the RM’s’ and not so much a specific spot… not yet anyways.”

        Gone alone in there cannot be referring to the RMs. No one can go into the RMs alone, the mountains are filled with people. So, gone alone in there is not referring to the RMs. IMO it’s referring to the exact location of where the TC lies, of course, this place is in the RMs. Riches new and old is a hint to this place.

        • ManoWar,
          Your saying “alone” is to mean only; by oneself?
          But lets go with that thought… can you walk into a crowded theater by yourself ~ alone?
          Alone, doesn’t always mean; not accompanied by another. There are a few usages and meanings…unaided, without help etc.
          or even; he alone crossed the finish line, as in, the first to do so.
          Fenn gave the suggestion to look up the word “several…” I have another one if you’re interested, look up Cold.

          • Seeker, I think you are over thinking it a bit. He went to his spot alone – no one else was with him. His spot happens to be in the RMs. Why else say “alone” ? It’s a hint to his spot.

          • ManOwar,
            Who is I in stanza 1?
            Serious question, seeing stanza 5 asked why is it I must go…?
            Seems redundant to tell us he went alone in there, just to ask us why he must go… leaving his trove for all to seek… when stanza 1 already told us with his treasure and secret it.

            Could “I” represent another, one who is dead? and “I” be alone as in the first to be there?

            After you look up the word Cold, have gander at the word I.

            Fenn’s comments; in part for length…
            ~”I looked up words and definitions of words and changed them, went back and rebooted”
            ~”Well Andrew, I’m not sure “admire” is the right word but if we twist it a little maybe we can make it work. The word means approval or high regard. So it works.”
            ~”Interesting that you would ask that Mr./Mz Wordsmith.
            I don’t use dictionaries anymore. I just type the word in Google for a faster response. It’s fun to make up words and play with different spellings. When someone calls me out after noticing the corruption of a word I use, I just smile, especially when I say something that in my mind is correct but in an academic sense it’s a horrible malfunction.”
            ~”There are a few words in the poem that are not useful in finding the treasure Phil, but it is risky to discount any of them. You over simplify the clues.
            ~ “I tend to us words that aren’t in the dictionary, and others that are, I bend a little.”
            ~ “I warned that the path would not be direct for those who had no certainty of the location beforehand, but sure for the one who did.” f

            Do you still think analyzing the poem is over thinking?

          • Seeker, I’ve noticed that you have been going around, around and around inn circles and ending up nowhere. Perhaps the poem is too straight forward for you to follow.

            Yes, the poem should be analyzed and looked at from a logical point of view, but not to analyze it to its death. Remember, he also said it’s straight forward!

          • Seeker,….If you don’t know who “I” is in the 1st stanza then I’m not going to tell you. You have guessed at least 5 times. You need to narrow it down to one.

      • Seeker: this is most definitely only my opinion, but I think the main reason you struggle with the poem is that you insist on *reading* it. Try “seeing” the words instead of interpreting them. Pretend you are child and just not capable of nuanced reading, especially the first stanza. I’m truly trying to steer you toward a more productive paradigm, but I also recognize that you have no reason to take my advice. You would have to take a leap of faith that I know what I’m talking about, but my read on you is that you have a high degree of skepticism about relative newcomers. My only counter is that it sounds like you’ve spent perhaps 4, 5 or 6 years working on this puzzle, and yet you don’t seem to have the certainty of Jake or JDA or dozens of others as far as a target area. If you aren’t 100% sure of the correct state, you have nothing to lose by considering my ideas.

        • Zap,
          First off, If we’re honest with ourselves, who’s not struggling with the poem? My only comment to *reading* the poem has been, I think we’re reading it wrong. Your Advice is well taken… I would suggest that we should look at the poem from many sets of eyes. But I have no skepticism toward newcomers… heck, I’ve have many time ask the lurkers to jump in on many occasions. I do however, don’t care for the “chest thumpers” that think they know anything at all. When it come to certainty… there is a difference between being “certainty beforehand” and being certain that no one else know what you think you know. How many book have searcher’s written that tell us how to find fenn’s trove. Those folks seemed very certain. LOL.. and all in different places and no results { I will add; if you are an adventure reader, those book can be entertaining. But I recommend “Call of the Wild” instead… Talk about a different perspective }
          I do find it a bit laughable that you say~ “If you aren’t 100% sure of the correct state, you have nothing to lose by considering my ideas.”
          The concept that we need to “find” a state tells me, there is a bias to narrow/force down the clues from the get go, only in ones mind, and not so much, as you said “seeing” the poem. Isn’t that ‘attempting’ to force the poem to have a clue that might not be there at all? What you just did there was eliminate the possibilities of clues going from one state to another to another. Can you, with complete certainty, say all the given clue references are in one state? { without saying… “in my solve” it does… }.
          So when you or others think you know thoughts… remember one thing… My thoughts are not stuck on one single method, and i surely don’t go with the major rules concept.
          I welcome the new comers, beg the lurkers to jump in, more than once have I done just that on the blog, Unfortunately, you might not have been around long enough to see those post. Yet, I have seen it many times… there is a process we all have to go through with this challenge. We have to fail at first to understand; we don’t know what we think we know. ~ who here, hasn’t been there?

          • Seeker…I always like what you have to say…even when I do not agree. Jack London sure does write a good story. I have always enjoyed The Call of the Wild. Takes the reader right into the heart of the matter.
            I personally do not think that Fenn’s poem leads from state to state in any fashion. I believe that after deciphering which state, the area where Indulgence lays in wait, is very close in relation to the clues in the poem. That is just the way it reads for me. Until that bronze box is found no one will know for sure…Thanks as usual for keeping the comments coming.

          • Seeker, I still don’t get your reference to narrowing down the clues from the get go as a bias to forcing a clue. I thought that’s what this is all about and you make it sound like a bad thing. We are trying to find a pretty precise spot in the Rocky Mountains aren’t we? I guess some things will never change.

          • Ken ~ “I personally do not think that Fenn’s poem leads from state to state in any fashion.”
            I have no problems with that… the point was only for an example. If we start eliminating possibilities right at the start, we fail to see those WhatIF’s.

            As far as closeness of the clues… I can see the poem’s clues referring to one ‘very’ small location.
            My thought is… why do we want to skip over any possibility of reading the poem… the crap logic, to be honest, that we “Need” to make one choice and stick with it …is mind boggling to me.

            How many time has someone blogged… why is it taking you old folks so long to find the chest, I’ve solved it in a week.
            Or the chest puffing, if you know what I know you’d have the chest by now.
            Or, my favorite… you over think. Maybe I just don’t know what “difficult” means…lol. That is another possibility I guess.

            Maybe we should Ignore; “The person that finds it, is going to be a person who thinks and plans and has an analytical mind and uses logic, not someone who has a hunch.”

            I’m always open to any suggestion from anyone… like you have many times in the past, ken.
            I’m just getting to old to listen to the braggers and all their failed attempts, that feel the need to explain/tell me … what I’m doing wrong.
            Then add imo to make it all justified.

            Ken, off topic, have you read “thunderhead”? If not, I would suggest it.

          • fundamentaldesign,

            It’s not the attempt to ‘narrow down’ to a 10″sq spot… that’s a given… it the attempt to make the poem out to be only that funnel effect solve. That to me is the start of, forcing clues that may not be there at all.

            Many say ~ the first thing we need to do is locate a state to start our search. I have to ask, why? Why do we need to force a state out of the poem? Have those folks, who repeat this type of comment, ever consider that there may not be a reference to a ‘state’ at all?

            IMO that is force fitting 101. The idea ~There must be a state clue, how else can the poem lead us.

            You’ve been around for a while, remember when, there were thoughts of clues in Canada, or even the chest laying in wait there. Not much talk about that now is there?

            Does the Major Clue of tftw map removing Canada from where the “chest” is … automatically eliminate Canada as a clue?
            Now in all honesty, I wish I knew for a fact that the poem does actually refer to a single state… it would make all this a little easier. But just to say we “have” to find out what state before we can go one… is just a hunch at best.

          • @Seeker, I agree that the clues don’t necessarily have to narrow down to the correct state to start off with. I just want you to be clear that’s why you are posting about forcing a clue is for that reasoning. Cause yesterday you didn’t use that same terminology for that specific reason but another and it didn’t fit right. Carry on…

          • Seeker…I get the gist of what you are trying to convey/why discount anything before getting started…that kinda relates back to “target fixation” comment. It seems that many prefer to get stuck on one idea or approach and that has ultimately led to many failed attempts. But, I also think that is just human nature to do so.
            I will say that my interpretation of the poem/clues has kept me hovering in the same general area for some years now . Right or wrong there are some aspects that I cling to because they just make sense. There are many here that have spent many months/years conjuring up what they believe is the correct approach to solving the poem and finding Fenn’s treasure. It is hard to let go…With that being said, for me, it remains important to explore different approaches and be open to the fact that my ideas may just be a figment of my own imagination. That keeps it real for me and reminds me to have fun at the same time.
            Keep the juices flowing! I’m heading out to rid my yard from puppy poo and enjoy the rest of the day…

          • Seeker opined: “I do find it a bit laughable that you say~ “If you aren’t 100% sure of the correct state, you have nothing to lose by considering my ideas.” The concept that we need to “find” a state tells me, there is a bias to narrow/force down the clues from the get go, only in ones mind, and not so much, as you said “seeing” the poem.”

            I guess what you’re not appreciating is that *I* didn’t pick the state, Forrest did. If the first clue is much more specific than a state, then wouldn’t you agree that by extension you’re kind of stuck with the state in which that clue resides? Yes, there are a couple exceptions. For instance, the clue may span more than one state, or the first clue could be sufficiently distant from the chest’s location that the two are in different states. But my point is that if the first clue was, for instance, a specific city, or lake, or mountain, it would not be as if YOU chose a state and only looked for clue answers in that state. You’d be stuck with whatever state that clue happened to be in. I didn’t go searching for a clue in the poem that matched my preconceived notions of where he hid the chest — the answer was simply there waiting to be discovered.

            So, knowing that, the relevant question that you ~can~ ask is how I can be sure that I’ve deciphered that first location clue correctly. The short answer is that no one can be 100% sure. But is that a reason to abandon it? What if Forrest provided abundant hints in TTOTC to confirm the location and help reduce your uncertainty? That is where I have found myself for the last 5 months. The first clue is not a source of consternation or uncertainty for me; it is a source of relief. This is why Forrest said the clues get progressively easier: you’re no longer staring at the entire Rocky Mountains and racking your brain trying to figure out the starting point.

          • Zaphod ~ “I guess what you’re not appreciating is that *I* didn’t pick the state, Forrest did. If the first clue is much more specific than a state, then wouldn’t you agree that by extension you’re kind of stuck with the state in which that clue resides? ”

            Then what’s the point about knowing what state, IF you already have the first clue, it “has to be” within one of the states.
            Personally it wouldn’t matter to me if the first clue[s] were in NY.
            {unless the first clue is a state, and that is what I thought this conversation was about}

            Although, I could argue that fenn didn’t even ‘pick’ the state… he picked the spot. The state just came along for the ride.

            You said “For instance, the clue may span more than one state, or the first clue could be sufficiently distant from the chest’s location that the two are in different states”
            I have wonder that as well. I would have to consider a few thing to see if it was workable. Fenn stated searchers walked passed the seven clues and the chest… If we’re talking Denver to NM, I would say no. West Yellowstone to YNP sure.

            IMO, it seems more than likely the clues are very close to each other.
            I wonder what the average searcher travels in one direction on a search… that would be interesting/curious to know.

            That bring me back to this comment;
            “If you can’t make two trips from your car to your solve in several hours, then don’t go.”
            LOL, There’s that dang several again. But what is more interesting is “Solve” Does that mean walking from the car to the chest in two trips [the ending solve], or walking the whole poem solution?
            I’m kinda hoping this all is in a theme park… I could just jump on a trolley.

          • Hi Seeker-
            Being filmed right now. I don’t actually have anything to say…just posing for the camera..
            Are you staying home til spring or are you getting the snowcat ready as we speak for a turn out in your search area?

          • Dal,
            I’m a sissy in cold weather, and I’m man enough to admit it… lol. The Snowy Owls won’t have to worry about me.

          • Dal: how was your weekend shoot? Are you at liberty to say the state in which your shoot took place? Actually, come to think of it, it’s presumptuous of me to assume the shoot had anything to do with the Fenn Chase — it could have been a different project altogether?

        • Hey Zap, I’m curious to what degree you are coding with the words without ‘messing’ with the poem or using ciphers.

          If one can ‘read’ a word and not ‘see’ the word, can you provide an example of that using any other word not in the poem?

          • Oz10,
            If you don’t mind… I liked to chime in on this. The example you asked Zaphod for might be easily explained by part of a Q&A… At least it helped me to understand the difference between reading and seeing the poem.

            “…Now I will test you Wordsmith. Write down the full definition of the word “several.” Then Google it and learn that many of us don’t fully understand some of the words we use every day.f ”

            By understanding word usages in ‘different manners’ and meanings, we may ‘see’ the poem completely different then when first viewed or read.
            My example is “begin it where…”
            How many thoughts can we come up with just those words?
            Start here.
            Beginning of the clues.
            Begin it where, in time.
            Begin it where you need to understand something and not a physical place.
            Begin your physical search [ and yes that could be different from, “start here”
            Begin it where hints of riches new and old come into effect.
            Even, and I’ll admit it might be a stretch… begin it where ~ you have been “wise” and “found” the blaze.
            Are these three words read as;
            Begin it where…wwh
            or even
            Begin it.. where wwh.

            Those are only some possible whatIF’s to meanings of word usage, and I still haven’t even looked up the words themselves yet, in the example that is. With each reading we can see a different view of the poem.

          • I’ll add that is probably not what Zap meant… I believe he was saying more to the effect ~ envision what the poem reveals to us as images. But he can answer for himself.

          • Seeker, yes I have looked for alternative meanings to every single word in the poem, and then some. They are too many but the fun is to keep it within the message.

            You used wwwh but lets explore ‘treasures bold’ first. Have you found an alternative meaning to this term that stays with the message?

          • Oz,
            I have with treasures. bold is a different thought.
            Treasures [ in one meaning ] are possession important to the one who owns them.
            This is important to me as far as, the word trove [ one meaning ] not having ownership.
            Other meanings… treasure can be valuable to the one who posses it, but may not be of value to anyone else. A trove is of value / riches.

            I’ll add, the word “riches” might mean of value, but it can also mean of knowledge / importance.
            LOL… please don’t ask about new and old. That is a much much longer list… But if your looking for a single meaning/definition of treasure or even treasure bold. I would have to ask you, in what version of my readings would you like? I’m a multiple meanings guy, especially when it comes to a poem.

            So what exactly do you think the message is? Assuming you’re talking about the poem to the solve.
            That alone, has many interpretations as well.

          • Oz10 re: Your last question to Seeker, “treasures Bold” and an “alternate meaning,” IMHO is that the treasure is located in a naturally “bowled” out depression. Thus, “treasures bowled.” What do you think Oz?

          • Seeker, I was writing something more about my point but you guessed it. If the first Stanza is talking about ff and his chest of gold, then all 4 lines have a flow, a message.

            But if ‘treasures bold’ refers to his collection of valuable words, then the flow gets disrupted or I just don’t see a logical message by line 4. I will try to make more sense later.

          • Oz10: like Forrest pondering how to answer some searcher’s question about the blaze, I spent about a half-hour trying to figure out a way to give you an answer to your question. I couldn’t come up with anything that would be useful to you that didn’t also give away the method. About all I can say is that this clue that I believe Forrest provided in the first stanza is not one (or more) of the words appearing in that stanza, nor is it a synonym for any of those words. I do apologize for being a bit cryptic, but it’s the best I can do without giving everyone the answer and robbing you of the thrill of accomplishment you’ll have when you find it.

          • Zap, I suspected that was going to be your answer. I will have to read and understand that statement again from ff where he lists the items offered as positive solutions.
            I am getting a small glimpse there but at least thanks for letting me know is not one in the first Stanza, helpful if I find the method. Wait, does that mean is somewhere else in the poem?

          • LMN, bowled for bold? Yes, that works too. How about ‘ridges’ for riches, what do you think? Actually, that doesn’t sound bad at all…

          • I think riches works just fine as is. I see another hint/clue immediately after riches. That confirms the first clue. So Oz, have you ever thought about -why- ff hid the treasure? I think that (IMHO) “getting people out into the countryside and appreciating nature was an afterthought. Any opinion on that?

          • Oz, I think riches works just fine as is. I see another hint/clue immediately after riches. That confirms the first clue. So Oz, have you ever thought about -why- ff hid the treasure? I think that (IMHO) “getting people out into the countryside and appreciating nature was an afterthought. Any opinion on that?

          • Oz10: you wrote, “I am getting a small glimpse there but at least thanks for letting me know is not one in the first Stanza, helpful if I find the method.”

            There must be a missing word or two in your sentence that is preventing me from understanding what you mean? Maybe you meant “(it) is not one (word) in the first Stanza”? If so, that’s correct: it’s not “alone” or “in” or “treasures” or “bold” or any of the other words in the first stanza. Nevertheless, I’m claiming that the clue is in that stanza. I know — sounds bizarre.

          • LMN, Why did he do it? Well, he had the idea when he had cancer, I believe, but once cured he didn’t really have to go ahead with it. Getting people out, not a strong motivator. Tax write-off, not likely when he could gift it out to family or friends. The only reason that makes sense to me is immortality.

          • LMN, also originality and continuity. There is also a strong sense of individualism, the one thing nobody can take away from us even when facing death; knowledge, experiences and our will. What is your take? Still thinking about your first clue though…

        • Zaphod, in regards to the first stanza you mentioned about “seeing” the words versus reading them. What I take from that is an approach more in line with, say, Kerckhoff’s Principle or some of the traditional methods of hiding messages inside seemingly innocent text.

          Hence, this is why you cannot change anything about the words and their order in the poem. I have found some interesting things approaching the first stanza from this angle – is this more in line with what you mean by “seeing” versus “reading”? There are more specifics I would launch into, but I hesitate to discuss them further without the potential of giving away too much. *grin*

          • Imajin: you are correct on all counts, and it sounds like you are getting an appreciation for how difficult it is to hint at the technique without giving away the answer.

      • I appreciate your perspective, and as a newcomer to the site, MY thoughts are, before I read your response is that he may have used a “pilots topographical map”.
        Thoughts?

        • John, I think that’s a real possibility. Although I don’t think we need to use such a map, I believe you’re taking a worthwhile path with that line of thought.

        • as a pilot of minimal credentials I have been studying the sectional VFR maps for a long time in hopes of finding something in the search. So, far I haven’t found any. I thought, perhaps intersections would reveal a key. Nope. Now, I’m considering geographical/topographic maps. The most difficult thing to avoid for me is the force fit trap a lot of us have fallen into.

          • Robert,

            I’m not a real pilot but I fly in Microsoft Simulator for two decades, I also have the OBIX Rocky Mountan scenery.

            Anyway…

            Check this out.

            1. Go here and plot a point:
            42°43’11.20″N, 108°53’7.73″W

            Begin your descent at that spot, take note of what is outside your right wing too (just north of the waterfall you are at) 😀

            2. Plot a point here:
            KLND – Hunt Field
            42°48’44.37″N, 108°44’1.26″W

            That is where you will put-in (on RWY 3) or land your plane.

            3. Plot a point here:
            42°50’0.79″N, 108°44’1.26″W

            In google earth go down to street level at that last spot, zoom in on the college wall and check out the granite memorial.

            Draw a line from point #2 to point #3, note that it is 180 degrees.

            Guess what you just did?

            You began your decent over a potential place where warm waters halt and take it in the canyon down.

            You “put in” 10 miles away, and exactly below (180 degrees) a potential home of Brown (not only because of the memorial plaque either).

            Just something cool….

          • Very cool Wy,

            It would not surprise me one bit if aviation terms, locations, and lingo don’t play a role in a solution. I also am thinking the poem may be asking us to go underground (as in a Cave). Hard to do without a flashlight. Might find canyons, surface warm water screeching to a halt in that cavern. It also fits when Forrest said the TC isn’t “buried”. Does this conflict with the coordinates you suggest? I’ll look at them and see what I find. Thanks for the info!

          • I’ve also used and still think that Fenn used an airport as his “WWWH”.

            It fits well with his life….and he is trying to put his life into the poem.

            One of my solves include my WWWH as the WYP Airport.

          • By the way, you will notice that when you go to street view at that 3rd point, you are standing in front of a college (possible wise?), when you read the historical marker (possible blaze?) you will know that you are standing at the spot where Fort Brown used to be, it was moved to the reservation and named Washakie and the town was named Lander.

            No, the chest isn’t at that spot, but the poem isn’t over yet. My solve is not in that town proper, just wanted to throw out something.

            I said descent above, I meant “approach”. Begin your approach where….

            It may be nothing, then again, you certainly are “below” a home of Brown. Not only because of Fort Brown, but Lander is nationally known as “City of Bronze”, its easy to find out why. Of course, Bronze is Brown.

            Stop by the Rodeo Grounds and oval Equstrian track after you park, its right next to the runway.

            At the end of the runway and across the road is Hope Cemetery. Clayton Danks is buried there, he is famous for a few reasons.

            Anyway, I call it the “Pilot theme”. Flying over a waterfall, then over a geographical oddity, into the canyon/valley and landing (put – in).

            Note: The Middle Popo Agie also puts in below the hoB, at the 2nd Street bridge.

          • I’m not sure about a cave, didn’t he say we shouldn’t we going in mines and caves? (I could be wrong of course).

            When I read My War for Me and he describes flying over the clearing and seeing a waterfall, it kind of makes me imagine flying over Sinks Canyon. Imagine you fly in from the south to land on RWY 3. You see the Popo Agie waterfall, then notice that the river just “disappears/halts/vanishes” and re-appears 1/4 mile downstream at the canyon base. (note: It takes the water from 2 to 4 hours to make this short 1/4 mile journey, 2 hours is when the spring runoff causes the Popo Agie to rage like mad, so much so it overflows the cavern and spills into a rock covered overflow channel where it meets the original river below the Rise.

            The Rise has HUGE trout, never freezes, and is a spawn location for them. They cannot go upstream from there, and they cannot be fished, its a protected habitat. Its also never stocked of course.

            The area near the Sink has been searched, in fact there is a story here about it. I still think it is WWWH and the searcher looked in the wrong area.

            When the water emerges at the Rise, it is roughly 13 degrees warmer than when it enters. In addition, more water exits than what enters. Geologists assume it meets with underground springs, they also know for sure that the Sawmill creek is connected underground from the Sawmill Canyon to the Sinks Canyon. They do not know exactly where its connected though (but the dye tests proved it).

            I know it is bad form to use any FF interviews, but in Moby Dickens he describes exactly how he would make such a flight, and he even stresses ALONE (he says something like I can do it all by myself… open the hangar, fire up the Piper Mirage… etc).

            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JXupxL4ovmY#t=2723

            Now suppose he took the “loot” and flew the “loot” (without the chest maybe) to Lander sometime in 2001 or 2002 right before he sold the Piper. He could then easily travel even on a commerical airplane with the empty chest at a later time.

            One thing that has stumped me at times is FF once said something like “I had time to think about it, and I could change my mind and go back and get it”. Well if he did hide the chest in 2002, then he had 8 years to tweak the poem and change his mind.

            Of course he said he hid it when he was 79 or 80, he did not want to give an exact time because people would research it. Well he only needs to be honest 85% of the time. His 2 trips could easily have been done 15 years ago.

            Incidentally, I do not remember exactly which interviews, but he said in one of them: “It was 15 years from when I got cancer to when I hid the treasure” (yes, he said treasure or chest, NOT 15 years for the poem). Then in a different interview I think he said it took 15 years to write the poem. Well if the first one is true, it would mean he hid the chest in 2003 or so.

            Needless to say this is just something I am throwing out there. I am not saying that its a fact he hid the chest in 2002/2003, but I swear he DID say that. I will try to locate which interview it was, I do remember it was a video not audio interview. And he said it, not the reporter, the reporter didnt ask. Of course it could just be a mistake, Dal has a video where FF reads the poem, and he gets the last stanza wrong! He says “If you’ve been brave and in the wood”, incorrect. Sure it could be a mistake, but remember he worked on the thing for 15 years, its an odd mistake, probably an old revision was in his head. That would mean so much for counting apostrophe’s 🙂

            No matter what I do, I always keep coming back to what I call the TeePee… in GE if you rotate the earth and look above Lander – Riverton – Dubois, it actually looks like a TeePee including the sticks on top pointing towards the Wind River headwaters up NW of the Tie Hack monument.

            In any case, if you takeoff from Lander heading north and follow the runway radial, it takes you to Riverton. From the riverton Runway it takes you up to Dubois. In the center of the TeePee near the top is where a B-24 crashed and killed everyone on board. There are also Petroglyphs all over on the north side of the reservation. Riverton (and Union Pass) were major rendevus sites for Fur Traders. In fact, I think they have a yearly celebration on the grounds in Riverton where the trading took place. Up on Union Pass I think they traded at Lake of the Wood. (nice name)

            Anyway, check it out in GE or a flight sim.

          • Oops, I forgot. Robert, no human can follow the Popo Agie River through that canyon, it is impossible, you have no choice but walk 1/4 mile to meet the river again near the base.

            If you read TTOTC “Looking for Lewis and Clark” check out where FF describes finding a way out of the Forrest. They followed a river to a point where only the water could go. They were very close to their destination, but they had to find another way down, the other way turned into a 50 mile horseback detour.

            With the exception of 50 mile detour, that is exactly what happens if you were to try to follow the Middle Popo Agie out of the Wind River range, at one point only the water can do. And this is no lazy river, in the springtime it recently took out some houses in Lander! Imagine such a river simply “disappearing underground for 2-4 hours”. Its a Sink… It literally drains the river, the river bubbles up from underwater and the rock edges near the surface 1/4 mile down the canyon. It then continues through Lander, it ends where it meets the North Popo Agie at the border of the reservation, from there its called “Big Popo Agie”, It later meets “Little Popo Agie” and finally the Wind River as it goes through Owl Creek Mountains and changes to the Bighorn River at Wedding of the Waters in the Wind River canyon just south of Thermopolis.

          • Oh yeah

            Popo Agie, according to the USDA National Forest definition is “beginning of the waters”.

          • One last thing with the plane theme…

            Remember when FF posted the recent picture of the open chest and said he took out the two 300 year old repeater watches?

            Look at some VOR’s nearby and follow the 300 degree radial. I won’t get into more detail, but you will find a few interesting things. I found out when I returned a few days after he posted that 🙁 It may be a coincidence though.

            If any of this helps someone find the loot, shoot me 100k, I can deal with less medical bills! LOL

            Have fun, let me know what you find.

          • Someone emailed me, but I will answer it here.

            It could be the 2 repeaters represt VOR beacons. If you are on a course away from one of them you can tune to a 2nd beacon and intercept it at 300 degrees. That would generate an X because you are one point, and the two other points are tuned to on your VHF nav radios.

            For the other question I own advanced geometry and scenery for the Northern and Central Rockies from here

            https://orbxdirect.com/product/crm

            IF you decide to play with FSX, do NOT buy the Steam version, just get FSX Gold and patch it. A lot of things (addons) do not work right with Steam.

            Also, out of the box the simulator coordinates are off due to changes over the past 1-1/2 decades. I subscribe to a company that sells updates for sims and also for flight control modules in real planes.

            Beware, FSX can be a habit and VERY expensive hobby. I’ve spent a thousand or so just on real good planes (made from real blueprints and very accurate). They also have fully functional GPS and FLight computers (on my 777 and a few jets, small planes have GPS but only in the good ones, the free stuff is mostly junk). LOL

            Updated geometry from ORBX is FAR more accurate than stock. I am pretty sure its made with real DEM files.

            I bought all that stuff starting 20 years ago, the scenery is new, thats about it. And FSX runs like a charm under Win20 64 bit.

            Its a cool hobby, and you can learn navigation, even carrier landing (extremely hard). I have early planes, fighter planes, F-100 and later more recent jets fully functional, can even load bombs. Of course I have a Piper Mirage too (before the Chase) lol. Its very fun even if it has nothing to do with the chase.

          • Led Zeppelin…err Zoso, yeah I wish they were real planes, but they are way out of my financial status 😀

            Here is a video of someone going through the steps using VOR for a landing (he aborts the landing and goes into a holding pattern, but anyway…)

            Watch part 1 and imagine you are the pilot, keep the poem in the back of your mind when he lines up (10 miles out in this case), begins his approach down and would have put in onto the runway instead of entering a holding pattern).

            Of course this is all just an opinion, but it certainly is a cool possibility on what stanza 2 means (with different locations of course).

            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nbWbMVrVrUs

    • Hi FD: “I’m at the juncture of thinking that to figure out the correct wwwh one doesn’t need to figure out the details of warm water, how it halts and special geographical locations that pertain to wwwh. IMO, that won’t get us the correct wwwh.”

      I’m in 100% agreement with you.

      “Instead, the correct wwwh can be found after first figuring out the correct answer to stanza one.”

      Again, absolutely right, in my opinion. It’s not likely to be the first thing you’ll think of, but when you’ve got it, it’s a big “Duh!” moment, and you’ll wonder why it took you so long.

  2. I may (boldly) be the first person (here) to confidently admit that I’m the second (person) here, that is also (absolutely) clueless ..esp. concerning the fuzzy definition between a ‘clue’ and a ‘hint’, in all honesty (quite frankly) – (but congrats kir, for being so ‘special’ anyhoo)

    I can also (bravely) confess, that I am (in truth) as equally hopeless at pinning the tail on some (unseen) donkey (whilst blind-folded), as I am at (effectively) solving any (difficult, but not impossible) puzzle, in my (brief) existence (to date) on this (small) Earth.. admittedly.

    ..and can (sincerely) rejoice in the knowledge that I’ve never been required to pin (a tail) on a donkey (recently) whilst (sightlessly) in (close) proximity to any (sheer) cliffs (thankfully).

    however, I (strongly) suspect that (maybe) the first clues (or hints, or both, (depending on the def.)) are somehow secreted within (perhaps possibly) the first stanza (but probably not, knowing my luck)
    ..so am (wisely) not holding my breath (for any more than four minutes, (unfortunately (for some ((Jake!))) 🙂

    I hope this (totally) sheds light upon this whole ‘where’s that darn treasure’ conundrum, that we have all (so eagerly) unsuccessfully managed to fail to solve, so far.

    (apart from Zap, of course – but that ain’t nothing abit of friendly water-boarding won’t (eventually) reluctantly reveal)

    (don’t worry Zap, it’s sorta like breathing air – but slightly denser)
    🙂

    • Inquisitive Hobbit: is waterboarding like wakeboarding or slalom water skiing? Sounds like something I might enjoy. Breathing dihydrogen oxide can’t be any worse than this oxygen-nitrogen-argon stuff you Earth people call “air”.

      • Mutated Alien:
        yes, it’s exactly like wake-boarding, especially at the point where one falls off and is completely submerged in water for long durations.

        no, I wouldn’t exactly call it ‘air’ anymore, as it seems to be more saturated with carbon molecules, with a mild sprinkling of oxygen and nitrogen (for nostalgic reasons probably – aren’t we lucky)
        🙂

        • Hi Hobbit, I see you’re still funny, ha! I’m glad you made it through the earthquake ok, I was worried about you and your brother.

        • Hi Jeannie, thanks for your nice words
          (I worry about you too, btw)

          happily for me (and you, and the rest of humanity) ..I have an instinctual policy called “never knowingly live on an active fault-line.”
          which seems to be working out well, so far
          🙂

  3. Good morning ,
    Happy Veterans Day to Forrest and all that serve or served our country.
    God Bless America!

  4. I don’t know how to play canasta, soooo about WWH…. the first clue. Trying to think like a child…I’ve done these things that make sense to me from a child’s mind. I’ve looked at (not in any particular order):

    1. Individual thermal springs in WY, MT, CO and NM.
    2. River confluences
    3. The edge of the collective thermal springs area in MT and NM
    4. Rivers and creeks with the name warm in it.
    5. Narrowed down water according to temperature, focusing on only the “warm” ones between a certain temp range.
    6. Yellowstone intensely, Firehole river, geysers, all the geyser basins and other warm sources dumping into creeks, lakes, etc.
    All the while looking for a canyon that connects onto where possible WWH.

    After all that, I am truly still baffled. I have a huge binder full of info…ha! My family is like “Oh, there’s mom staring into the computer again.” Yep, I’m crazy.

    I find beautiful spots on google earth where I would say are the most spectacular places on the planet that make my eyes grow wide and my jaw drop, like SE of Hyalite Reservoir in the canyons where I’m simply stunned by the magnificence of what I see based on pictures posted by hikers on Google Earth. That part is cool. There are a few of those spots I have on my bucket list to visit even though I can’t find a WWWH and canyon.

    Ok, back from drifting, I’m asking for help here…..does anyone see where I could eliminate any of my above 6 general locations above? Like no way does number 2 River Confluences make sense to you? Or do you find you have thought of the same places to look? It would be fun to post a survey of where everyone believes WWWH could be with tally marks next to it. Are we all just way off?

    • TSAL;

      You posted:
      1. Individual thermal springs in WY, MT, CO and NM.
      I could agree
      2. River confluences
      I agree
      3. The edge of the collective thermal springs area in MT and NM
      I do not agree
      4. Rivers and creeks with the name warm in it.
      I could agree
      5. Narrowed down water according to temperature, focusing on only the “warm” ones between a certain temp range.
      I do not agree
      6. Yellowstone intensely, Firehole river, geysers, all the geyser basins and other warm sources dumping into creeks, lakes, etc.
      I do not agree

      Just my opinion JDA

    • ThrillSeeker,
      Have you tried concentrating more on what “begin it where” might mean? We are told of “Riches new and old.” Could begin it where refer to new and old? How “In there” and “secret where” could help understand how it might work together?
      The six suggestion you listed are very common thoughts that we all have examined… but how can you narrow all those, and many other possibilities, down to a single location?
      Two possibilities with using those type of locations imo…
      The poem must tell of “the one” location or the book hints the heck out of that location. [ that doesn’t seem to subtle to me ].

      Your number 5, imo, is an impossible task. How can we determined what a certain temperature of water may be, in a constant range, year round? What range are we to look for? 98 degrees [ warm to the touch ]?
      Between 75 and 90 degrees [ great swimming tempts ]? Anything above 32 degrees?
      Is warm even an indicator to a temperature [ in degrees ] at all?
      Or could warm simply refer to , water{s}. [ how straightforward would that be. ]
      I think the better question, in this specific line, would be… what does “begin it where” mean?
      There is a couple was of reading that [ mind you, it’s not easy to explain in typing ]
      Begin it ~ where warm waters halt.
      or
      Begin it where ~ warm waters halt.
      There is a subtle difference / interpretation…

      Food for thought.

      • ThrillSeeker,
        I would also suggest you check out the videos, Moby Dickens I believe, where the comments of [ I can only paraphrase, because my drivers for video and auto are messed up at the moment ]
        Going by memory;
        Do kids have an advantage, question.. and.. show it to your kids, they’ll get it.
        Bloggers have turned these to comment upside down in many cases, such as; show the poem to a child or fenn said a child could solve the poem… it’s best to hear them for yourself.

        • Thanks Seeker for your advice. I appreciate it. I need to visit some classrooms full of kids ha!

    • if you google warm waters it states that all of the water between the arctic and the Antarctic is considered warm waters. Makes sense to me to assume that warm waters halt when it is frozen. I go with the snow cap mountains as wwwh. The question is which one? imo of course. Figure out the first stanza which I consider clue 1 and the rest falls right in to place. My opinion again.

      • Louie,
        There can be many ways of looking at “frozen” pertaining to water.
        But like you said, one might be, Snow cap Mountains… which one?
        If you think this is the correct angle of approach, I suggest to think poetically in meaning… example; Never Summer Mountain as a possibility. Now if you add logic to this thought, ages from now, should the snow cap no longer stay year round [not unlike the Glaciers disappearing at a rapid rate] The poetic reference will.
        If you add imagination / a kids line of thinking, waters that freeze / never summer / all waters not frozen are warm waters etc. That seems to work well.

        One could argue that Glacier National Park would be a good concept as well [although it would be harder to narrow down a single mountain].

        Maybe, “Just heavy loads and water high” would add perspective to what water{s} could refer to.

        You said ~ “if you google warm waters it states that all of the water between the arctic and the Antarctic is considered warm waters.”
        That to me is, a straightforward way of seeing those WhatIF’s possibilities.
        Shhh, don’t tell anyone I said that…

  5. “I am going to the USA to catch sight of a wild porcupine and to give some lectures.”
    ― Sigmund Freud, Group Psychology and the Analysis of the Ego

  6. Here’s my take on the wwwh hints in the book.

    Pg. 102: “The grass SEES, and the trees and rushing waterS of the spring creek also SEE.”

    The key words are WATERS and SPRING.

    Connect that to the first paragraph of Gypsy Magic, where it says (going from memory), “In the SPRING when the weather is WARM…”

    So you have a melding of three words in those sentences–WARM WATERS SPRING.

    • Wow, Mindy, once again thanks for sharing. I checked TTOTC, and you are close. He wrote “In the spring when the weather was warm…” Did you also notice on page 102 two sentences prior to “The grass sees, and the trees…” he wrote “The answer is at last obvious to me.” Is this one of “The answers I already know” from the poem?

  7. I started this last night just before the paged closed down for comments. Thought I would put it back here again due to some discussion over the years of what is “North” or “Northerly”.

    Forrest Fenn’s definition of North/Northerly starts at 5:38 in to the video. It is not what I remember hearing or reading a while back.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=StlJL10sgCs&t=23s

  8. Still thinking this is the way…

    1. Begin it where warm waters halt – (Firehole River bathing spot)
    2. And take it in the canyon down, – (Firehole Canyon)
    3. Put in below the home of Brown. – (Madison River near Madison Junction)
    4. From there it’s no place for the meek, – (YNP to the border)
    5. The end is ever drawing nigh; – (North Interstate Gallatin Highway – word that is key)
    6. There’ll be no paddle up your creek, – (Taylor Creek)
    7. Just heavy loads – (Lots of log debris fields)
    8. Water high. – (Waterfall)
    9. The blaze – (Beats the heck out of me)

    Just my simple opinion.

      • Oz10,
        I haven’t seen anyone else here mention what I have so it must be original.
        Never seen you lay out the 9 clues either.
        You must be paranoid like most or afraid of ridicule.

          • So OZ is that all you have to say? Any reasoning to go with your opinion?

            These type of comments irritate me. You have been warned.

          • Goofy, I didn’t mean anything bad by it. Btw, I sent you a message earlier about the ‘word that is key’ link on the searchers discussion link is not working. Is that section disable for good?

          • I see why you are confused OZ, it has happened before with other archives. When there is only one previous post in the archive it looks like the post shows up but there are no comments. If you click on that one post in the archive it will open up that post and you can see the comments. When we get two post in the archive it becomes obvious what to do. Sorry for the confusion.

          • I see it now Goofy. I read the part where it said ‘closed discussion’ and didn’t click on the title. There is 2 threads on this topic then.

        • I was just messing with ya… you always troll people and I was trolling you. But how about the heavy loads (debris fields) they are all over the rocky mountains, how do you know one from another specifically…

          • Oz10,
            I posted that expecting a constructive reply, not someone who just says it is no good without reason.

            I expected more from you & will not expect such anymore seeing you have no input why my solve is no good.

        • I like it Jake and it’s original until someone actually find the treasure ha ha! I don’t understand how HOB is around the Mad confluence, but then again I haven’ figured out what HOB actually is 😉 If Brown is a fish, then I believe there are stories and evidence of brown trout in many publications that would make that clue last even if all the fish were extinct in a few years and the geography changed, through fires, avalanches, etc. If you are referring to Burnt Hole in the Russel book it’s a possibility too. Thanks for sharing 🙂

          • Thanks thrillseekeranimallover,
            I don’t know what Brown is either & still think Forrest is the only one that knows. I look at the poem like a test with 9 questions & when you cannot figure one of them out, it’s best to skip it & try to figure out the others.
            Eventually you will hit a point where you have to put BOTG.

            Who knows, maybe that little cabin at Madison Junction is the home of Brown.

          • Hi Jake – I thought you of all searchers must know what home of Brown is, seeing as how you actually stayed there. (a wink and a grin) In the unlikely event that this hilarious possibility hadn’t occurred to you (very doubtful that it wouldn’t), I’ll refrain from uttering its name in case you actually like the idea.

          • zap,
            I have been saying for months, almost a year now, that I don’t know what HOB is. I decided to skip it & see if I can figure clue #4 which fell into place & then went to clue 5 & also fell into place.
            Figuring out clues 1 & 2 – 4 & 5 will tell you where HOB is but not what it is.
            Knowing where it is, is more important than what it is….
            IMO

          • Jake: based on your reply, maybe the thought actually ~hasn’t~ occurred to you?! Think about the name of where you stayed … wouldn’t it be ironic if that was actually it? I thought for sure you would have been amused by the connection.

          • HA zap,
            I wish that was the HOB, I don’t think so.
            That whole area is a place for the meek depending upon who you ask.
            I was thinking HOB is somewhere on the Madison River near the junction not the Gallatin although I like the area seeing there are no large crowds.

          • Hi Sparrow — I assume you’re joking, just as I was joking with Jake. I only brought it up because I thought it was funny that Jake was literally staying in a place whose name could easily be interpreted as home of Brown, and he didn’t seem to realize it. (It’s a poor choice for hoB given that the place is unlikely to last a century, and prior to 1993 it went by a different name. In 2002 the main building even burned to the ground, so its longevity as a clue would be dubious.)

    • Jake, you are entitled to your opinion and to your solve and that’s ok but like I said the other day it seems to me that using only about 35% of the poem (9 lines out of 24), or Stanzas 2,3 and 4 only in the search for the treasure is not reasonable. IMO…

      “not all words are important but discounting any of them could be a mistake”

      • “…There are a few words in the poem that are not useful in finding the treasure Phil, but it is risky to discount any of them….”

        I just happen to have this part of the Q&A at the ready. Thought it would help.

        • …there you go, that is the one. If I read that correctly 100% of the words are important for their understanding and maybe 5% were not useful (after the fact).

    • So Jake, are you saying the blaze is the chest? If not, you still would need a clue to do whatever or however after that. And, what if you look slowly down, will you miss it? Since your quest would be over with the last clue, why 2 3/4 more stanzas? Wouldn’t it seem that the last clue is somewhere in the last line? Maybe the last word?
      What if the end I sever is how that is read? North Interstate Gallatin? And lastly, how did you come to a starting spot? Guess? What part of river bathing do you need to “nail down”. I just don’t see an attempt to “solve the poem”, sorry Jake, but hey, it’s just my opinion. If anything, I believe you are in the right state.

    • Jake sorry I missed this when you posted it. I am not the only one to say this and maybe you will consider it. IMO home of brown refers to the location of the treasure. You put in below and navigate to that point using the clues. In your case maybe Mary Mountain is HOB. Put in below there from Firehole Rv and follow Nez Pearce Creek to Lake Mary. One of the original back country patrol cabins is still standing there. It was built in 1927. Great hike whether you find the TC or not.

      • Lugnutz,
        Mary Lake is way too far to hike.
        I scoped out quite a bit of YNP & tried to see what was doable & eventually ruled out the park for the hiding place although I can see some of the clues there.

        I like all of YNP as no place for the meek now.

        • Sure, no one is going to walk from the HWY all the way out to Mary Lake. I really just want you to consider the idea that HOB is the location of the TC.

          But now I’m curious. Are you focusing up by Cinnamon Mountain? Or as far west as Sphinx? The only thing I will say is that someone owns all that land. No one owns the peaks but someone owns the land you would need to traverse and I just don’t think Forrest was on private land grazing or gazing. Maybe I will meet you out in WYS in the spring. Stay wise and Brave.

          • Lugnutz,
            I don’t think for a second HOB is the place where the chest is.
            The chest could be 35 miles away from HOB.
            I saw the interviews & the look on his face & how he answered when he responded to those questions about HOB.

            I think the chest resides at the blaze & is under water.
            I don’t think mildew can be inside or outside under water.
            You will have to classify it as something else.

  9. pinyons + halting waters + geological markers that wont change in through the +looking down +catching a glance at the home of Brown BTW, there are at least l7 located so far in one of the states My words come after exhausted laptop trip though the book TTOTT and TFTW, + cold + wet treasure.

    My WWWH has not be used here to the best of my knowledge but I can where a younger person might know where it happened. The areas I am thinking about has trails, creeks, nothing so remote that you’ll die trying.

    Have to stop for some rest but will begin my armchair search again as there is s data base of people named Brown. I do not think Brown is a fish for obvious grammatical reasons. Even the blaze is something that will stand the test of time.If it’s permanent it might be big and reveal shafts of lite in the canyon. If you want more, or just want to tell me why I’m wrong, that’s okay, too

  10. I believe the whole book is cryptex.
    Fenn says there is no cryptex you need to know, because he did not copy and other style of cryptex. So yes there is no cryptex to know, other than figuring out Forrest fenn cryptex of his book . There are thousands of WWWH, Canyons, home of Home of Browns, and so on. But there is only one way to be certain of everything and I believe you need to decipher the hints in the book. And to me deciphering a hint isn’t turning to a story ” In love with Yellowstone” and he fished along this river and there’s brown bears there, or brown trout spawn here. If your thinking you figured it out based off that. Good luck. It will get you no where fast. But maybe I nice trip to Yellowstone. It took FF 15 or more years to put this whole thing together, any one can right stories about there past. But to hide all the hints with in the book and write a poem. Yes that’s what took 15 years . FF is thinking 1000 years from now, because he knows the work he but into creating his cryptex and what it’s going to take to decipher it.

    Just IMO
    Move on if you think I’m wrong.

    • I built a cryptex cause I think the same way as you that the results of f’s poem and memoir is that they are like a cryptex.

  11. 21ponies, states: “The labels are a distraction. (as are gps devices Imo)”

    I’d just like to remind everyone of two FF quotes. The first is taken from his Thrill Resource Page:
    “take adequate supplies and a GPS”

    The second is a “clue” released in 2013:
    “If you had its coordinates, you would be able to find the treasure”

    Now, you could argue that the first is simply a plea for searchers to remain safe, although how a GPS would help them unless they are relying on coordinates for their solution in the first place, I’m not sure. And the second is an axiomatic statement (obviously you could find it with coordinates), so how it then constitutes an additional “clue” I don’t know.

    But if we take the two statements together, it would seem logical to come away with the impression that somehow coordinates are helpful.

    I’ve seen it argued that if you go up the correct creek, and spot the correct blaze at the correct angle (depending on your height) you’d find the treasure. Is that really a more logical approach than walking to the correct lat/long? What if the treasure is not up a creek, but in a forest, a desert, an open plain? How then would you locate the tiny area that constitutes the hiding place?

    Forrest was a pilot. Isn’t it logical to assume that, in some way, the poem reflects the navigational principles that FF is familiar with?

    Although I rely on the poem almost exclusively for the critical information necessary to search, I pay attention to FF’s comments. They are often very revealing, and I don’t dismiss anything lightly. I get the impression that some searchers are very selective when it comes to FF’s statements; if they see some correlation with their solution, they accept the statement as helpful, and if it doesn’t, they pass it off as only useful at face value, or even as irrelevant.

    I would suggest that if FF recommends a GPS and coordinates, there is a VERY good reason for that.

    • Voxpops, tell us how walking up “your creek” and stopping where the blaze you have previously figured out comes into view is not more logical than GPS coordinates. I don’t even think asking if it’s more logical is the right question. Is it a more precise method? Yes, it’s more precise than GPS coordinates. If you want further discussion on this topic it’s been discussed on another forum and a very bright chap named John Brown posted about how an alignment of geographical points is more precise than GPS coordinates. (Sorry, I don’t have a link to the archived thread.)

      You ask why a creek and not a forrest, dessert or open plain. Because “your creek” is written in the poem. It goes back to trying to be precise with what one thinks are clues in the poem.

      Then we’ve got your points on f’s two statements about GPS. You posted he mentioned to bring GPS and wondered why he would say that if we don’t need to rely on coordinates. I see some jumping to conclusions here. It’s obvious that the GPS could help them if they got lost. Also, F has released info that he says is a clue before but such that he doesn’t think it will help anyone. As such, I see you being selective in choosing which after statements by f to use for your interpretations. Good luck in the Chase.

      • “Voxpops, tell us how walking up “your creek” and stopping where the blaze you have previously figured out comes into view is not more logical than GPS coordinates.”

        In my solution, the blaze, the creek and the chest are not at the same location. Therefore, walking up the creek does not bring you to the treasure.

        “it’s more precise than GPS coordinates.”

        I can understand that it could be very precise providing all the relevant factors coincide at the critical point. However, if one element is not aligned (e.g. the blaze), it won’t work.

        “You ask why a creek and not a forrest, dessert or open plain. Because “your creek” is written in the poem.”

        But nowhere does it say in the poem that the creek is where the treasure is. That’s a huge assumption, IMO.

        “It’s obvious that the GPS could help them if they got lost. ”
        Only if they know the coordinates where safety lies. You need to have made plans based on coordinates in order to make use of them later.

        “I see you being selective in choosing which after statements by f to use for your interpretations.”
        I selected the statement, “If you had its coordinates, you would be able to find the treasure” because it’s pertinent to the discussion of GPS. I would be happy to learn of any contradictory statement by FF that would negate that. Please let me know of one.

        • So you can’t say that the alignment way of geographical points/landmarks is any less logical than GPS coordinates. Just because your theory doesn’t have a creek, the blaze and tc in one area doesn’t mean this method is less logical.

          What I do have is f saying that wwwh is a clue and the blaze is a clue. So, that leaves 7 clues which could lay in between those two. Meaning the 9 clues are just what’s precisely written in the poem and not coordinates…operative goal is being precise.

          • And I already mentioned a F statement that negates your reliance on his coordinates statement. He’s released a clue before that he says won’t help anyone find the tc (paraphrasing).

          • He’s released a clue before that he says won’t help anyone find the tc (paraphrasing).

            So none of the later clues have any relevance??? Come on, fundamentaldesign, you can do better than that! 🙂

          • The alignment concept is great – I really like it! However, whereas GPS will always work – to within a number of feet – the alignment requires you to be no more than a few feet off a specific trajectory, and for there to be no impediments to vision (such as trees or rocks), and for all the elements to be in one basic spot. Even the blaze has to be sufficiently small, narrow or far away so that you can pinpoint the location reasonably accurately.

            By talking about GPS and coordinates, I am trying to remind people of FF’s words – not mine. “If you had its coordinates, you would be able to find the treasure” is one of the clues in the series that includes above 5000 ft., not in Utah or Nevada etc. These clues have informed searchers for the past few years. It would seem imprudent at best to choose to ignore one of them because you don’t like it. I wouldn’t dream of searching below 5000 ft, so why would I choose not to use coordinates/GPS?

          • There’s a much greater leap of faith to take in f’s statement if you have it’s coordinates you can find the treasure than the treasure is not in Utah or above 5,000 ft. It doesn’t mean that you can ever get it’s coordinates because maybe he never got the coordinates himself and secretly hid them in the poem or TTOTC. For that matter, you can’t even say for certain that in his statement you are quoting that “it’s” is even referring to the tc. There’s plenty of mysterious ‘it’ and ‘it’s’ in the poem that remain a mystery. It’ll be hard for you to prove that f’s use of ‘it’s’ in his statement is referring to the tc and not the blaze or something else.

          • Then isn’t it best to assume it refers to everything – HoB, creek, blaze, chest, etc?

            (For me the “it” is very important.)

          • I agree that ‘it’ is very important. A few have focused on a word that is key…that’s my choice of approach.

          • Sorry FD Forrest never mentioned the word coordinates in the statement I believe you refer to. He said codes which you may be confusing.

          • Timw, just to be clear which statement are you referring to about coordinates not being included in f’s statement, thank you.

  12. A comment with regard to the latest weekly words:
    “*Success is an omniscient guru. f”

    FF has previously spoken of the “all seeing eye,” the eye in the pyramid with which most Americans are familiar. I believe this weekly words relates to what may be discovered at the hiding place. Success, in this instance, is the final discovery. Just an opinion.

    • I made that connection as well, vox. There may be some relationship between this Weekly Words and the all-seeing eye references.

      • IO…eye-oh….it’s off to nature we go,
        We learn some junk and then we flunk,
        IO….IO,IO,eye-oh….

  13. TimW and FD, was it this phrase that you’re thinking of?

    “Some searchers overrate the complexity of the search. Knowing about head pressures, foot pounds, acre feet, bible verses, Latin, cubic inches, icons, fonts, charts, graphs, formulas, curved lines, magnetic variation, codes, depth meters, riddles, drones or ciphers, will not assist anyone to the treasure location, although those things have been offered as positive solutions. Excellent research materials are TTOTC, Google Earth, and/or a good map.f”

    All good maps contain coordinates, and that word is not referenced in the above exclusions. FF is very precise in his language.

    Of course, FD may be thinking of a different statement.

    • Some times words can be confusing… such as “good” and I’ll add “right” into the equation.
      “C’mon now agent 777, a map is a map. The more detailed maps are most useful if you have the right map, but I’m not sure I needed to tell you that.f ”

      Isn’t the question more important in understand maps: What “detailed maps” is fenn referring to? Is a road atlas more usable than a topo map? Celestial map? World map? Satellite maps?
      Fenn mentioned GE which has many type of mapping capabilities, as well as zoom in and out for sizing of a mapped area and aerial viewing [ picture style ]. Also mentioned, comprehensive knowledge of geography might help.
      Is there a pattern merging on what kind of “details” fenn might be referring to? ~ what is “if you have the right map” really trying to say.

      just added thoughts…

      • Seeker, I think you may be worrying a little too much about the map. If you’ve got a detailed map, you should be fine, IMO. Couple that with GE, and you have sufficient info.

        • I’m not worried about maps at all. I hardly look at them nor do I have a gps. My idiot phone does, but I’m too smart to use it.

          By the way, I read your other comment below, thanks for answering that as well.

    • Ummm…not sure what statement Timw or you are attributing to me from f and coordinates. I think Timw meant you, Voxpops. I don’t remember bringing up any f statement about coordinates.

  14. The second is a “clue” released in 2013:
    “If you had its coordinates, you would be able to find the treasure”

    Now this is exciting to see. If you know what its is.

      • For me voxpops it’s…the word ‘its’ in the statement I posted. My heart started pounding in my chest over this quote I had never seen before. Happy Hunting : )

      • Voxpop,
        What is your take on this comment?
        Chicago radio WGN interview, March 2013: http://lummifilm.com/blog/WGN2013.mp3
        Minute 10:45,
        Q: Does the book give me any more information than I would get from the poem?
        A: “There are some subtle hints in the text of the book that will help you with the clues.  The poem will take you to the chest but the book by itself won’t.”

        note; …hints in the text…

        • I am sure that there are plenty of hints in the book, Seeker. I think it’s great if you know what they are and can make use of them. For me, as I’ve said before, I didn’t want the distraction of possibly going off at a tangent, so I chose not to use the book(s). I’ve seen people discussing almost every page of the book and spending very little time on the poem itself.

          • I think I have been to your spot next to the Madison. I have read the books and I don’t understand how the poem gets you there. My area is farther down the canyon with more creeks and marvel gazes.

          • uh, excuse the interruption/ distraction, but could someone tell me which page(s) in TOTTC show ff and his classmates in front of the elementary school? The window panes to me, look like something I saw on ‘Wheel of Fortune’

    • You may well be right, Road Hawk (so many things will be different), but I’m only quoting FF’s own statements. Ignore at your peril! 😉

  15. Road Hawk, my spot is nowhere near the Madison. I considered that area a few years ago but could not make anything work there.

    If it’s any help, my “path” is many, many miles long and ends up nowhere near where it starts… at least geographically. In spirit, it may be right next door!!!

      • It’s a land feature, Admir. While I won’t divulge where it is, I would refer you to Scrapbook forty-nine, and in particular this sentence:

        “When I sat and pulled the drawer toward me something sharp on the bottom scraped a gash on the wooden tabletop.”

        Good luck!

        • Sounds like the Devil’s Slide….nice area there! We actually went to top hoping top aspiring to slide down it like kids again on old fast food trays. lol. it was not a feasible as it appeared from the couch. Good times though.

  16. As I see Stanza 1:

    I -gone – alone- there = 1113
    111.3 longitude = 280 mile western border of WY

    treasures = Montana
    delete Idaho border portion

    bold = big
    whats big on that border, and could it be WY’s long north border.
    (placing you at WY’s NW corner on the Montana side?)

    [IMP LIT] … he went to Borders & bought two of the Great Books.
    Yellowstone has two border strips in Montana State.
    The two books (wrong war & glitzy W. Egg) = his adult years)
    … puts them together: Trash & TIME.
    Bought 3rd book about a wandering kid.

    Secret where = ??
    In the corner? EW crest here? To the dirt I am a Caliph?
    Cliff/Caliph… whatever, I am king of it.

    Hint = something small and useful,
    like a discrete wink, or blink.
    Perhaps an electric beacon atop a bold mountain?

    …. Ahhh, if only my armchair had wings.

    • OS2,
      How did you come to this: I -gone – alone- there = 1113
      I can see “I” as one & “alone” as one but that’s all I see.
      These cords will put one many creeks including Wapati & Taylor which of course I like very much.
      Meadow creek, Cub creek & Cabin creek as well & I believe Cabin creek was once called “Stinking Cabin Creek”.

    • OS2: that’s a good example of an alternate way to “read” the poem, and is much closer to the sort of non-standard approach that I believe you need to use to solve Forrest’s clues.

  17. If forrest wrote someone a email and said go back to the first clues would that mean he got one and 2 ????? Because he didnt say go back to the first clue he said clues

    • Diggin I think you got the little girl from India hint before anyone else. He was saying you can figure out the first two clues from home, then you need to hit the road. Most here just ignore that, but they might as well be playing canasta as trying to solve the remainder of the clues in front of a screen……Just my opinion.

      I wish I had another treasure to hide in the Appalachians. The little girl in India cannot get closer than the first two clues. There are many disabled people who are deeply into maps and geography, and they are having a lot of fun.
      http://mysteriouswritings.com/six-questions-with-forrest-fenn-over-five-years-of-the-thrill-of-the-chase/

      Dal, I am sure you remember that the little girl from India was the lark of Jenny Kile, who inserted it into a question she asked me. It might just as well have been a boy from Waxahatchee, where my father was born, or an Arab kid from Marrakech, a city that Winston Churchill said was the most beautiful place in the world. He was an excellent artist and I once sold his oil painting of that city. We are getting a lot of mileage from that little girl from India, doncha think?
      https://dalneitzel.com/2016/02/18/odds-n-ends-about-fenns-treasure-hunt-5/#comment-124066

      • I agree Goofy, I think after the first few clues you need to be boots-on-the-ground to find the other 7 clues.

        But one thing has always disturbed me. Forrest once said
        “The person who finds the treasure will have studied the poem over and over, and thought, and analyzed and moved with confidence. Nothing about it will be accidental”.

        If you can only research the first two clues, how is it possible to “move with confidence?”

        To me, move with confidence means the minute you are on the ground standing near the chest, you should be able to walk directly to the chest. If you need to walk along a stream and turn over all the suspicious rocks and trees, look in holes, or even scan the ground with a metal detector, that would not be walking in confidence.

        Trust me, again, I agree with you that BOTG is required. However, perhaps it has something else that prevents the girl (or a boy from Waxahatchee) from doing it. At one time I thought maybe the northern lights or something in the northern hemisphere was involved, you will not see that from India. But the boy from Waxahatchee killed that theory.

        I am just baffled because there are 9 clues, and if that girl cannot get past clue #2 it means that it should only take 2 clues to get you pretty darn close to the chest. Now considering he also said something similar to the following in regards to the question “what is the home of Brown” – “If I told you that, you would walk right to the chest”.

        So wouldn’t that mean that we can walk to the chest by the time we reach “Put in below the home of Brown”. Which would also imply that there must be many clues before that line, not just one or two. In the very least, doesn’t that mean it is impossible that the first clue is “Begin it where warm waters halt and take…”? So maybe there is some thruth that although the clues are contiguous in the poem, you do not start until a line further down, maybe even the 5th stanza?

        Remember;
        1. The girl can’t get past 2nd clue
        2. If we knew what hoB was, we could walk right to the chest.

        So…
        hoB cannot be clue #1 or #2 because the girl could not get the chest, if it is #3 then what would be the point of the other 6 clues if we would just walk to the chest once we know hoB?

        My personal opinion is all 9 clues describe what you will see when standing on the ground at a single location. If you read the poem closely, one interpretation can lead to no movement at all on the readers part. The warm waters halt and take it in the canyon down, not the reader. The warm waters put in below hoB. “From there…” might be describing what the area is like, still no movement on our part. No paddle up our creek = no movement? etc.

        If all 9 clues describe 1 specific location, that would explain how one would perhaps locate a blaze and walk directly to it. However, going BOTG after 2 clues and then single stepping through the poem is not moving with confidence unless you already know what to look for when you get there.

        Am I making any sense? LOL

        • Well mustgo I have wondered about what you are saying for years. When I first started I wondered how Fenn was going to keep folks like me with intimate knowledge of the Rockies from just going to get it. Either the poem is a cryptic codex of some sort with anagogical coded messages viewed by flipping the illustrations and pictures in the book inside out. Or hidden in plane sight right in front of the searchers that are at the correct location.

          He didn’t say where we would proceed with confidence from. I now think you have to be at the correct location to figure it out and will then proceed with confidence. Just my opinion.

        • WymustIgo;

          Good logic, but I still don’t see the problem. If you know wwwh is, and take it in the canyon down, Not far, but too far to walk.” Since Forrest wrote in the preface to TFTW, that TFTW was now about 10 miles. When Forrest then says if he told you where hoB was, you could walk to the treasure isn’t he telling us that that distance is less than 10 miles?

          He isn’t saying that it is CLOSE, but rather that it is some distance less than ten miles. Does this make sense? It does to me. Just a thought. JDA

        • WyMustIGo … you have asked a lot of questions. 🙂 Let me respond to one. You quoted FF’s response >>> “what is the home of Brown” – “If I told you that, you would walk right to the chest”.

          A synonym for “brown” is “bronze”. Suppose that the HOB is the spot where the chest lies. In that sense, that entire line would be something of a red herring (or joker line) because it would not provide the searcher with a location clue. However, the line may be quite relevant in a different way.

          And yes, I think the searcher would need to go with confidence. Once you are in the vicinity of the chest, It should not be necessary to do a lot of thinking.

          Ken (in Texas)

          • Not only is brown a synonym for Bronze, while working on my Lander solve, Lander is nationally known as “City of Bronze” as well as Fort/Camp Brown, in fact there is a Fort Brown granite stone memorial place into the outside wall of the college on Main St.

            I also got into Emily Dickinson (through the Hope Cemetery, Hope Monument, and other things). Here we have “Bronze and Blaze” poem, which is basically describing the northern lights.

            Anyway thanks for the responses guys. And Goofy I agree, Ken too.

            JDA. My interpretation of that preface in TFTW is that he did not go that route towards Bakers Hole not because of 10 miles, but for other reasons. IMO he also describes TFTW in the “Finding Lewis and Clark” chapter of TTOTC. They reach an area where they can’t continue, only the water could, so they had to turn back and go the long way around the mountain.

            I feel you are not supposed to go down the canyon even though it is walkable, but because for some reason you can no longer follow the water (see my post in WWWH).

            I hear you though, and I always have 10 miles in the back of my mind. In my WWWH post, the point at which I started my descent SE over WWWH to the put in point was just under 10 miles give or take a few feet of runway. But the distance from HALT to TAKE was only 1/4 mile (the river vanishes underground for 1/4 mile and returns up to 4 hours later above ground).

            IMO, you need to be BOTG once you put-in. Question is, what clue # takes you to that point. If its only clue #2 or #3, then it doesn’t make sense that if you knew where the hoB is, you would walk right to the chest without having to worry about the other 6-7 clues.

            It could very well be that stanza 5 is where you start clues, then it wraps back if your quest did not cease.

            Who knows!

            Good information guys, thanks!

        • Hi WyMustIGo — thought I’d respond to parts of your original long post on Sunday. You started by agreeing with Goofy that you thought after the first few clues you would need BOTG to solve the remainder. But then you admitted to being disturbed by Forrest’s statement “The person who finds the treasure will have studied the poem over and over, and thought, and analyzed and moved with confidence. Nothing about it will be accidental”. You then cut to the crux of the matter and posted:

          “If you can only research the first two clues, how is it possible to ‘move with confidence’?”

          I think you are right to ask the question because I don’t think you can move with any sort of confidence with only the first two clues. In fact, I would say that if you don’t have the third clue solved, you won’t have the necessary confidence in the second clue. Other searchers can speak for their solves, but I would never have left home at the point when I had only solved my first two clues.

          Clearly, BOTG are required at some point, and I originally assumed that third stanza poem lines like “From there it’s no place for the meek”, “There’ll be no paddle up your creek” and “Just heavy loads and water high” were clues that were decipherable only by the searcher seeing in person what those clues actually referred to. But there’s an implicit assumption in parsing the poem this way that these are even clues at all. What if they aren’t?

          The poem doesn’t explicitly say ANYTHING is a clue. Sure, Forrest has given us some guidance by admitting that “the blaze” is a clue and “where warm waters halt” is a clue, and that there are possibly 3 or 4 clues in the second stanza, suggesting that “home of Brown” is most likely one of them. But I don’t believe he’s ever said there is a clue in the 3rd stanza, and yet I get the impression that nearly everyone believes there is. Perhaps it’s because Forrest has said the clues are contiguous (and in some cases has said consecutive) and so people naturally assume that if the second stanza is clue-rich, then he would just keep rolling along with more clues in the third. But I think it’s important to admit that that’s just an assumption, and not one that Forrest has specifically given a blessing to.

          Suppose we choose to believe that Forrest wasn’t being deceptive when he said “That sounds like three or four to me” in response to the interviewer saying the second stanza sounded like it had a couple clues. Choose his minimum: 3. Then assume “the blaze” is one. That leaves 5 more clues to be distributed among stanzas 1, 3, 4, 5 and 6. If you apportion, say, three clues to stanza 3, that leaves only two for the so-far-unused stanzas 1, 5 and 6. So that would mean at least one of those three did not contain a clue (and I know a lot of people don’t think the final stanza contains a clue). What I’m getting at is that by making the *assumption* that stanza 3 is clue-rich, a searcher unavoidably limits the possibilities for other stanzas. So these seemingly harmless, “obvious” clue assumptions have subtle but rather significant consequences for how the remainder of the poem is examined.

          • Great analysis, zap! I prefer to work from the other point of view and say that everything is likely a clue, or part of a clue, unless it can be shown otherwise. That way you ignore nothing, and don’t assume that phrases that don’t sound like a clue have no relevance.

          • Hi Voxpops: you wrote, “I prefer to work from the other point of view and say that everything is likely a clue, or part of a clue, unless it can be shown otherwise. That way you ignore nothing, and don’t assume that phrases that don’t sound like a clue have no relevance.”

            This is the much safer route, of course. This is why the nine sentences, nine clues approach is popular. But 99% of the approaches that searchers explain here are still just reading and interpreting the sentences, phrases and words of the poem, and that in itself is making a limiting assumption about how the poem works.

      • Goofy,
        There’s no way to “find the chest” other than botg… that’s a given…common sense really.

        “I warned that the path would not be direct for those who had no certainty of the location beforehand, but sure for the one who did.” f

        We can play with is comment as to what “the location” means.. all the clue, the chest, clues and the chest…
        But what about the “certainty before hand”? What about “Nothing about it will be accidental”. And move with confidence.
        Is it possible that we can only ‘know’ we have anything correct once the chest is discovered, again that seems obvious as well.
        We still have to know something other than the first two clues if we’re to have ‘certainty beforehand.’

        @ WyMustIgo, ~”Remember;
        1. The girl can’t get past 2nd clue”

        That is slightly off… I think it’s very important to read that comment correctly…”The little girl in India {{cannot get closer}} than the first two clues.”
        Nothing about, can’t get passed the second clue. “Can not get closer” should refer to the chest.

        And to my point; could it be that all the clues are so close that, while at the first two clues, the other seven and the chest are in very close proximity, maybe less than 200′? Again, we could play with the distance, but for discussion purpose… WhatIF all the clues are of the same spot?
        Fenn did say searcher[s] told him where they were, took him through their process [ that is how he knows ] they had the first two clues and they walked pass the other seven clue and the chest.

        So now we have a poem that “Contains” 9 clues. We have searchers who deciphered the first two clues [ the one clue, the first clue, that we were told to nail down of stay home ]. on location and still “no certainty beforehand”..imo… because they went pass everything.

        Maybe we should talk about that “important possibly” thingy… Because it still seems to me where all missing something… whether in the poem, the book, or on site.

        Can anyone find the chest without botg? of course not. But that doesn’t say we cant know what it is we need to know prior.

        @ Goofy ~ “… He was saying you can figure out the first two clues from home, then you need to hit the road.”
        That is a hard one to bite down on. So I have to bring up this possibility, as many as the first 4 clues could have been decipher. This comment has very little information to go with it, So attempting to analyze it is difficult. We don’t know where fenn heard or read these first four clues from… e-mail? Blog posting, talking to searcher personally? over a cup of coffee. Either way, that doesn’t sound like, we can’t get passed the second clue without botg… Yep that is only my opinion, the way I see it anyways.

        Now In all honesty, there may be a way that we can’t get pass the first two clues without botg…
        In theory, the first two clues get us there, the seven remaining clue references / answers, are at the first clue. They maybe mentioned in the poem but only known of / answered at the first clue.
        Fenn did say he “Planned’ this… so what is there that he planned / placed for us need to see?

        • Seeker,

          I think you are dead on when you said that multiple clues solve to the same location. I believe that once on the ground, you will find that he used multiple clues to describe what you should see.

          But some how, someway, we need to know what to look for when we get there. Excuse me if I don’t seem to be making sense, but its hard to describe.

          My last BOTG was over near Dubois WY. It was my 3rd time out (only been out 3 times in less than 3 years). I knew from the past that when you get there, the areas are much more enormous that they appear in GE or on a map. Everything of course lined up and I was sure (like we always are), but I could not find a blaze.

          When I returned home I read his comment about taking the 300 year old repeater watches out and putting in two five inch mirrors.

          It struck me as odd because I seriously doubt those were 300 years old, and 300 years is about when the first one was ever made. They would be of tremendous value, I do not think he would have ever put them in there to begin with. They would be destroyed by any moisture, dirt, dust, etc. So 300 meant something else. During that two weeks I was emailing him constantly, even showed him my tickets. I looked in areas other than what I sent him, and if I draw a 300 degree radial from the spot I last sent him, it crosses over the area I ultimately went to. (NOTE: I am not saying that his comment was directed at me, I am calling it a coincidence, however, he has cut off all communication with me since October.. could be just because of doctors orders, whatever).

          My destination was around 8,500 feet and was pretty much flat land, but maybe the size of 4 football fields. I walked it, plenty of rocks, sage brush, plants, animals, and to my West, South and East was all Forrest. To the north east was also forest, but I was overlooking the Wind River Valley at this point. But I could not find anything other than animal skeletons, holes (mostly animal made, but near a clop of trees were 2 man made holes, not large enough for a chest).

          Clearly I was in the wrong spot OR I walked right by it. I really believe it was not found yet, so I don’t even assume that, I think the chase is real, not a hoax!

          Then it hit me… Why are the mirrors 5 inches? Maybe because the chest is 5 inches and they are outside the chest leaning against it? One mirror to the west, one to the east, rocks on top and around it. If you look the right direction at sun up (be east of it) or sun down (be west of it), you will see a glimmer of light and walk right to it.

          I dunno… It is hard because I am in Florida, I cannot afford to make many trips to the Rockies. Fortunately last time I went, I made a friend who is willing to help me. Can I trust him? Who knows, but I do know he owns a huge ranch with his dad and has hundreds of cattle. He has more money than the chest is worth, so who knows, I’m between a rock and a hard place! LOL

          Thanks for the great feedback Seeker!

        • You could be correct Seeker. I’ve just taken all of his comments in context and in order and formed an opinion that’s all.

          Fenn’s comments can be construed to mean many different things Seeker. I think many of us, if not all, fit the poem to their circumstance. Those that have access like me tend to think you have to be out there in the wilderness to find the solution. Those that don’t have easy access to the Rockies think it’s some sort of codex. Perhaps both groups are correct.

          It’s all a matter of perspective.

          • That is an excellent thought on the mind set of the reader… Circumstance to unintentional interpretation.

            These two comments just popped in my head…
            Don’t go if you can walk several miles to your solve.
            Everyone has the same information, everyone has the same opportunity. [ ok, that might be three comments ]

            Maybe the reason John and Jane doe cannot get closer is, not because they don’t know beforehand the information needed, but they may have to do something with the clues.

            This give thoughts to many ideas, such as, seven clue [ or most of the remaining clues ] have some kind of alignment needed to be done. or clues 3 – 6 need pacing out, or calculating needs to be performed. etc.
            Another words… work needs to be done on site, but still known beforehand. [ so without doing the ‘work’; you cannot get closer ].
            Then again, one of my previous thoughts is… at the location of the first two clues, the other 6 or 7 remaining clues are viewed in reverse [mirror image]. Those clues work backwards to where the ‘first’ two clues are… no stomping, simply following, by viewing them.
            This could be the; not knowing you have the first clue correct until you retrieve the chest, idea.

            However, in all honesty, there is a need for physical action at some point. This journey is not for all, imo, but the many.
            The question still remains… is the poem opened to all to solve, by “understanding” what is needed to be done “beforehand”?

            Was there the forethought on fenn’s part ~ as you said; “fit the poem to their circumstance.” [don’t go where a 79-80 year old can’t]~ or is this exploration only for the physically fit to attempt to solve.

            You got my gears turning again Goofy.

    • Hi Diggin – it would be helpful to understand the context of f’s words and to see how he actually said it. But not having that: IMO, if I were told to go back to the first clues, then I would take it as start over and try again with figuring out what the first clues are.

      If f told you or someone else this, I can imagine some will cry foul, and that f doesn’t help people privately. But if his response is like so many others he has given, it is of no help if you can’t even figure out what he meant.

      Just my 2 cents, and probably not worth half that.

      • Exactly. It seems the first clue is more then just deciphering it. Hence the “nail down”. It appears we need to know more about it that just locating it.
        “searchers didn’t understand the significance of where they were”

  18. I think the sentence may be interpreted incorrectly about the girl from India. Think of it this way: suppose I send back Forrest my “solve” and when asked later but he said “he’s a smart guy but he can’t get past the first two clues”.

    He is commenting about what I WROTE him, not declaring it is impossible for me to get past the first two clues. I believe the girl from India is being mentioned in the same way. Despite all the information she is giving Forrest, she is unable to get past the first two clues—yes perhaps due to “how” she is looking at the poem.

    I don’t think that Forrest means the little girl can NEVER get past the first two clues because she lives in India. Just my opinion of course.

    • In response to the little girl from India, Jenny’s question did not indicate how much the little girl knew, but rather, Mr. Fenn stated she could not get past the first two clues.

      This is an opinion, offered as a thought.

      • Little Indy had the poem and a map of the US RM’s.
        ” All of the information you need to find the treasure is in the poem.”

        “They don’t need to read my book, but they need to read the poem, the book will help them, but they can find the treasure it the can decipher the clues that are in the poem.”
        Seriously, what is little Indy missing? I say nothing… She “can not get closer”.. because maybe she is as close as she can be.

        “It’s not a matter of trying, it’s a matter of thinking…Sure, I mean people figured out the first couple of clues and unfortunately walked passed the treasure.”

        • Has the information, yet, says can’t get closer than 2 clues, but, it’s plausible to get 9 from where she’s at because she has the poem and a US Rocky Mountain map. I don’t think my mind wants to think deeply tonight.

        • The Li’l Indy problem doesn’t perplex me. At the risk of repetition, this Jenny lark says more about the flaws of her question than there is any mystery about Fenn’s answer. Jenny specified the map: a map of the U.S. Rockies. Forrest answered her specific question: with THAT map she cannot get closet than the first 2 clues. That map is useless for clues 3 and beyond.

      • -Mr. Fenn stated she could not get past the first two clues.— LOL!! No he didn’t.

        He said, “The little girl in India cannot get closer than the first two clues.”

        In context, it would be: “The little girl in India cannot get closer, to working out where the treasure is, than the first two clues.”

        Meaning……she cannot get nearer to solving the poem, EXCEPT (with) the first two clues… The lads in Egypt and Texas, and everyone else, cannot solve the poem without having the first two correct clues.

        Bet ol’ Fenn still giggles about this one!! :0

        (how many of ya’ll have Googled the definition of “than” or “closer”??)

          • LOL!! My apologies pd, I wasn’t dissing you. Your post just happened to be the one I decided to post on.

            also:

            than

            /T͟Han,T͟Hən/

            conjunction & preposition

            conjunction: than; preposition: than

            1. introducing the second element in a comparison.
            “he was much smaller than his son”

            2. used in expressions introducing an exception or contrast.
            “he claims not to own anything other than his home”…….”she cannot get closer than the first two clues”

            3. used in expressions indicating one thing happening immediately after another.
            “scarcely was the work completed than it was abandoned”
            …………………………………….

            In LGFI, ‘than’ is not used as indicated in #1 or #3 above. It is not used as a comparative nor does it indicate anything happening immediately after another.

            Fenn’s use, in his reply, is as indicated in #2, an exception.

        • you may be right locolobos,
          but why would Forrest make reference to ‘wishing he had another treasure to hide in the Appalachians’, if the girl actually had as fairer chance of solving all the clues as the rest of us?

          and why would he mention disabled people, if not to imply that ‘botg’ were necessary at some stage along the way?

          two things stick out in my mind;
          1) when Forrests whole philosophy behind hiding the chest, was to get people out into nature, wouldn’t a ‘total solve’ (online) directly conflict with that ideology?

          2) why have ‘others figured the first two clues and went right past the treasure and didn’t know it’ – is it possible clue3 hadn’t been found because it couldn’t be pre-solved?

          3) where is Jessica Hyde?
          – and will there be a third series?
          (I hope so!!)
          🙂

          • Curious hobbit, you wrote:
            “1) when Forrests whole philosophy behind hiding the chest, was to get people out into nature,wouldn’t a ‘total solve’ (online) directly conflict with that ideology?”
            Although I’m not certain that was the initial impetus for hiding the chest, I do believe it could – theoretically – be solved from an armchair. However, in practice (and only going on my own experience), it’s not realistic. The poem is so structured, IMO, that unless you visit key points, such as the blaze (and suffer major disappointment!), you’ll not discover how long and winding the trail really is.

            2) why have ‘others figured the first two clues and went right past the treasure and didn’t know it’ – is it possible clue3 hadn’t been found because it couldn’t be pre-solved?

            Forrest has already stated (and this was more than a year ago) that he believes three or four clues may have been solved. If that’s the case, it suggests that he may be saying something different in the phrase you quote. As I mentioned regarding the LGFI problem, the way you read that line may be important.

          • voxpops

            thanks for your ideas and admittance to being ‘not certain’.
            Yes, I was aware of Forrests ‘more than a year ago’ comment about several clues etc, but this latter information is not relevant to the point I was pursuing, which was all three sentences in context.

            I now believe that Dal is totally right about requiring botg (..excuse me while I rush to fetch the smelling salts) for at least one clue
            ..and that the clues/hints are somehow hidden in plain sight, whether inside the poem, or within the landscape.

            (btw, congrats on discovering a randomly scattered chunk of old tyre voxpops – it’s more than I found)
            🙂

    • pdenver

      I sorta hope Sparrows logic is true, given my location, but I think you’re right about ‘how much she knew’ not being implied.
      ..so, is it botg for clue #3 then ..?

      and considering Forrests comment about ‘if he told you where HoB was, you’d walk straight to the chest’ – [this is not a quote, Hal]
      ..then wouldn’t clue #3 exist at/or before HoB?

      it makes fuzzy sense to me that, what seems to be (potentially) the easiest clue ..Brown (capitalised), could ironically be the most differcult to solve for many ..if botg are, in fact, essential.

  19. Just a thought, but, what if the reason he made two trips to the location wasn’t because the treasure was heavy? What if it was so no one would notice him carrying all that gold? What if the treasure is hidden in a very public place and he didn’t want anyone noticing him so he only carried a little bit at a time?

  20. The Little Girl from India question may not be so problematic if FF’s answer is considered more “flexibly.”

    Firstly, try changing the stresses in “she cannot get closer than the first two clues.”

    Secondly, how do things appear if there’s a “mirror” involved in the Chase?

    I found it helpful thinking this way – your mileage may vary!

  21. I’ve never had a concern or second thought about Forrest’s comment about that Little Girl from India. It seems as straight forward as his poem. To me his point was simply that you can figure out the first two clues by looking at a map. But for clue three and possibly all the rest you will need to be in the place…

    This makes sense to me on several levels…if he had not been interested in getting kids and families off the couch he could have designed the poem so that it could be unpuzzled from the comfort of the living room or office or airport terminal.

    But that was never his intent. He wants folks outdoors, exploring the mountains and having the kind of fun he had as a kid with his family.

    In my opinion, in order to understand clue #3 you’ll have to figure out clue #4 and you cannot find clue #4 on a good map. The Littlle Girl from India will need to get to the USA and start her trek from Clue#1 to #2 and then find clue #4 which will be too far to walk from clue #2..

    But then I am a simple person and I try to find the simple solution to everything. I also believe that is the way Forrest intended the clues to be uncovered and connected…simple, yet hidden in poetic language. Hidden in plain sight, as it were.

    • Dal that “straight forward” poem has had people stumped for six years. IMO, it is indeed straight forward, but NOT straightforward! If it were simply a question of finding the correct WWH or HoB and putting BOTG from there, it should be over by now.

      FF has talked of architecture involving the poem. Every building has a foundation, framework, floors, walls and roof. I am finding it helpful to apply this thinking to the poem – and discovering it may be more of an Empire State than a mountain bothy!

      • Vox-
        I said “simple” not “easy”..
        In my mind those are two different things. Please don’t put words in my mouth.

        A log cabin can be a simple structure…but not easy to build…no matter how simple.

        • Dal, I don’t think I ever attributed the word “easy” to you. Apologies if I did. I was talking about the difference between “straight forward” and “straightforward,” which I think is where a lot of confusion arises.

    • Dal~ “In my opinion, in order to understand clue #3 you’ll have to figure out clue #4 and you cannot find clue #4 on a good map. The Littlle Girl from India will need to get to the USA and start her trek from Clue#1 to #2 and then find clue #4 which will be too far to walk from clue #2..”

      What about the comment, First four Clues… [ admittedly, we don’t have a lot of information to go on, with this statement ] We don’t know how fenn received this information, he is not certain of.
      Yet, if he read this from a posting… one possibility might be; 4 clues can be solve prior.
      Yes, that is a stretch in thought, because we just don’t know.
      **Just some thoughts, no facts. If I had facts, I would need to think.

    • Good advice…IMHO
      Dal, I have asked before and I’m asking again. Who all can read the Old Santa Fe Trading blog for Forrest???
      Is there any way that I can email Forrest that would be Forrest and only him that could read it???
      Timothy…IMHO

  22. Why, thank you, curious hobbit!

    I also found two (note: 2!!!) cigarette packets and a banana skin, but thought I should hold those back until you’d recovered your breath from the tire story… 🙂

    • you’re welcome mate.

      a wise move on holding back on revealing all those other exciting items that you found – could’ve been a big thrill-power overload for too many old hearts, otherwise.
      🙂

      • You’re right, ch – too many of us old codgers out there!

        Actually, you bring up an interesting point about the way people are perceived and reacted to on the blog. Anyone with strong opinions, Jake, JDA, RC, E.C. Waters etc. frequently provoke ire or strong feelings.

        And if somebody’s stupid enough to post stories about stones and old tires, they basically deserve everything they get! 😉

        Believe me, I get it, and I thought long and hard before posting the tire story. But there are a few people who might get something out of the reporting of small and “unlikely” finds. And, even though I may be completely off my head, I think I’ve enough sense of self-preservation left not to expose myself to ridicule unnecessarily.

        It’s extremely difficult to convince people of why something might be important without revealing the background to it (which would spoil the search for some). Hence the general feeling that this guy may be a blowhard or know-it-all or some such. But when I talk of coordinates, lengthy trails, waypoints, mirrors, etc., I’m not doing it to crow, blow smoke or revel in my idiocy, but to suggest approaches that others may not have considered.

        I’ve approached this Chase as a serious challenge – almost as a full-time job! It’s certainly been on-the-job training for me, and I’ve made a huge number of (very expensive) mistakes along the way. But, for me, there is a glimmer of light at the end of the tunnel, and somehow I’ll pursue it to the bitter end. When speaking of what I feel I might have discovered, I try never to say anything that would undermine a particular searcher, and all I ask is for people to be a little open-minded.

        • Voxpop ~ “And if somebody’s stupid enough to post stories about stones and old tires, they basically deserve everything they get! ”
          Continued with:
          “It’s extremely difficult to convince people of why something might be important without revealing the background to it (which would spoil the search for some).”

          I know this is off topic to what you posted… But I need to chime in here [ and this is my own personal thought on the matter ].

          If someone want to post ideas and thoughts or even parts of their solve, don’t you expect other to respond with intent to see “plausibility” to what is being stated?
          “If someone is stupid enough to post… they basically deserve everything they get!”
          { I get that was, in part, meant as humor }
          But seriously, I don’t think that is factual at all. Many here simply try and give constructive criticism to help… some, and I speak of myself… don’t fluffinutter our response for that feel good affect. We { self included, more than most } just simply get our point out…. Not with that idea ” basically deserve what they get’
          I also didn’t take your posting as bragging or a know it all attitude… you present what you did without all that chest thumping. So I give credit where credit is do, and add, if someone is too thin skinned to except criticism or thoughts against what you post… maybe they should think twice about why they post… but not be scared to post it.

          Yep, I get there is limited information that someone may want to post about their solve or thoughts… YET, that is all we are given to go on and respond to.

          • No argument with that at all, Seeker – and thanks for clarifying your own position.

            I’ve tried to give as much info as I can without giving the game away, but beyond telling you that I have found coordinates that take me to specific waypoints, I’m not sure what else you would like to know. The two finds that I’ve written about were both discovered at specific points that the poem directed me to (within a few feet). At both locations there was nothing else that was remotely similar that could have confused a searcher. Both items had strange inconsistencies that led me to believe they were not left there randomly. That’s it, really.

  23. Good morning everyone! I disagree with searchers needing to be on site to figure out any clues in the search for “Precious” as I call it, but I’m not here to agree, or disagree with anyone in this blog , or any other blog out there for that matter. Having studied the poem even in my sleep, just like some of you, leads me to conclude that the whole solve of the poem is not only possible without being there but needed to be confident enough to extract the chest from its place. The mistake I see we make as searchers is to have opinions of our own as to what,or where we think the treasure chest is . If we would only be humble enough to accept our ignorance about what the poem is as opposed to what we think it is this poem would already be solved. As I have said many times let the poem guide you, and not the other way around for the poem “knows”and you don’t. The poem is not what it appears to be but what it is. The poem is not unsolvable, and it was not meant to be unsolvable but it is us who make it so. I do not think we give Fenn enough credit for writing his poem , and some of us even think it is some sort of random events taking place in it. The poem is exact, and it is self evident that it does not need anything else to be solved. It does not need a map, or TTOTC book, or any other clues, hints, or whatever else is out there to distract you from it.
    This poem will eat you alive if you do not change your way of thinking. If the searcher has tried to solve the poem and she,or he can’t is not because she,or he can’t solve it is because she, or he can’t change the way they think. It is like changing a habit, but who wants to do that, right? Well it is worth a shot if you want the chest.

    And please abstain from attacking without absorbing what I am conveying as opposed to what you think I am trying to convey, but then again we are only human and attacking some one else is what makes us feel alive, right? This is my opinion and opinion only.RC

    • RC,
      WHY?
      ” I disagree with searchers needing to be on site to figure out any clues in the search for “Precious” as I call it, but I’m not here to agree, or disagree with anyone in this blog , or any other blog out there for that matter.”

      You say the poem is this and that… with no explanation
      You say the poem is not this or not that.. with no explanation.
      You say you see our mistakes… with Confucius explanations
      You basically say what fenn as told us, just in your own words…
      You said; “If we would only be humble enough to accept our ignorance about what the poem is as opposed to what we think it is this poem would already be solved”
      I would agree. ignorance is lack of knowledge, which we all have at this point, repeating it won’t change anything.

      No attack intended on my part; but it would be nice if you could ‘explain’ your thoughts, instead of repeating the obvious, with this fortune cookie telling style.
      RC ~ ” As I have said many times let the poem guide you, and not the other way around for the poem “knows”and you don’t.”
      I recall reading some place, the author of the poem telling us, the poem will lead you precisely… lol… You said, “I have said many time let the poem guide you…”
      That’s just a repeat of what fenn stated.
      So Why is your posting relevant and applicable?

  24. RC, I do agree that it’s possible to solve the poem in its entirety before marching confidently up to the location, but I found out that I wasn’t bright enough to do that without a number of confirmatory trips!

  25. I don’t believe you need botg to solve the poem. There is no confidence in that, only moving on two clues. You have to remember FF does not always tell the whole truth. Just like when he emailed that person back and said to him, has the hot water messed up the patina of the chest. If he would have never said he was just joking with the guy, everyone would be looking in hot water and you guys would be talking about it.

    My 2cents

    • on the contrary JW, I believe it requires a high degree of confidence, to move on only two clues – but I sorta figured that any ‘botg’ statement would inevitably rattle a few cages.

      and yes, I suspect ‘us/them/those guys’ would be talking about any statement that Forrest has made (un-jokingly) as it would be truly unwise to discard any possibility that wasn’t spoken in jest.

      more puzzling than the poem itself though, is defining the many (seeming) contradictions and ‘not whole truths’ that Forrest has volunteered to date – there’s another book right there.

      my 2shillings
      🙂

  26. Ok, so what clue # do you think hoB is (assuming you think it is a clue)?

    Keep in mind that Fenn said if you knew what it was, you would walk right to the chest.

    If the little girl from India cannot get closer than the first two clues (we assume because she is not boots on the ground), this must mean that hoB is at a minimum the 3rd clue in the order we are supposed to follow them. It can’t be clue #1 or clue #2 because the little girl from india can figure those out and she is unable to locate the chest as she could if she knew hoB.

    I think hoB is probably clue #4 or all clues from #3 to #9 describe what you will only see when standing at the spot given by clue #1 and #2. In other words, you will not be able to figure out what hoB is from your couch, if you could, you would go there and walk right to the chest.

    Didn’t someone also ask “If you knew where hoB was, could you reverse engineer back to WWWH”. I think FF said something to the effect of why would you need to do that if you are already at the home of Brown? Doesn’t that further shed light that only 2 clues are needed to get to the starting spot?

    Like I said though, if you only need 2 clues to get there, and then you are to follow the other 7 clues once there, I do not see that as “walking with confidence”. We’ve all been there at one time no? We are confident enough to go there and look for the blaze which many think is at the chest, and yet we spend hours there flipping logs and stones, looking at trees, etc. That is not confident, it would mean you did not know what to look for, but now we are back at only possible to decode the first 2 clues without being there.

    I wish I could explain myself better.

    Its like we have a map with 9 points of interest. We are told that if we know the first two, we now know where to start. We apparently cannot deciper clues 3 – 9 without being there. That is cool with me. But that isn’t going with confidence if you do not know what to look for when you get there. Also, assuming “Begin it” is where you start once there, again, hoB is very close (in clue order), and apparently knowing it is good enough to get you right to the chest. In other words, once we put in below the hoB, we can walk directly to the chest with confidence and without doing any other offline clue research.

    I dunno, it does not make sense, unless the poem is not straight forward and you are supposed to begin at a stanza other than #1 and/or jump around in the poem. hoB looks like clue #4 to me if you start at stanza 1, but then if I know clues 1-4 (assuming hoB is 4) I can walk right to the chest without knowing clues 5,6,7,8 and 9?

    Note: I’ve been a principal engineer for almost 30 years. I know there are ways to do this, but remember, I am assuming it is straight forward. I could complicate it all beyond belief where only a rocket scientist could figure it out, but that would be wrong, there has to be a straight forward way to explain how the impossible is done without complexity 😉 If you want to respond, feel free to explain it to me, don’t just be vague though and say “there is a way”, that doesn’t help anyone so it is pointless. hehe

    • WyMustIGo, you’ve hit the nail on the head IMO.

      To start with, for me, “right to the chest” means turn right, not right by.

      I don’t think you need to alter the order in which the stanzas or clues are read, but at some point you’ll need to look at the poem as a whole. Also, if you are prepared to accept that HoB is a long way from the chest, clues 3-9 (or however you want to number them) have to be carefully worked out, and cannot be determined from a BOTG search at HoB.

      For me it makes much less sense to have a six stanza, nine clues, architecturally crafted poem that basically becomes a scramble up a creek after clue 2, than to have a finely nuanced cradle of logic that has to be thought through carefully and imaginatively every step of the way.

      There is great depth and complexity in the poem as far as I’m concerned. You don’t have to be a rocket scientist, IMO, but you do have to agonize over it and gnaw at it relentlessly for months, perhaps years – and not try to shoehorn it into preconceived places. I won’t tell you my method – it’s cost me blood, sweat, tears and treasure – but I will ask you to accept that you have to look behind the words – a long way behind – in order to understand the logic and access the information that’s waiting there. The beauty of it is that it does become self-reinforcing as you reveal it, IMO.

      I’m sorry if this sounds like “there is a way,” but as you’ll have seen from earlier discussions, I rely on numbers for part of my info. If you’re prepared to give that a try, then you may uncover a valuable seam…

      Huge caveat – this is all opinion until proven otherwise.

      • Some of you are altering what Fenn actually said in that interview. He never said “…right to the chest.” He said, “If I told you you would go straight to it.” And given the context of the conversation, he wasn’t being literal. He was being sarcastic because the interviewer had actually asked him “Who is Brown?” He initially ignored her, probably because he assumed her question was rhetorical (like he would ~really~ just tell her!) But then she pressed him, and that’s when he gave that reply. So if you want to hang your hat on his answer, you should probably go back and hear the interview for yourself to judge whether Forrest was being serious.

        • Thanks for pointing that out, zap. Either way, it works for me.

          But weren’t there two occasions – the one where he says “straight,” as you say, and another where he used “right.” Sorry, but my memory is hazy on this.

        • Well, this is embarrassing — I just played the video again and he does say “right”, not “straight”. But I still maintain that his answer is irrelevant. Here’s the link if you want to listen for yourself:

          • LOL… opps.
            Zaphod, are you saying you can’t remember ..ever ..single ..word spoken by fenn? I mean, it’s only been 6 years and hundreds of comments. What’s going to happen in the next six years when all that doubles up…lol

          • Hi Seeker: indeed! Memory is such a fickle thing, which is why I have a large Word document that keeps track of the important quotes and tidbits. I thought I’d saved a transcript of this Jennifer London exchange with Forrest, but it wasn’t in my files. It is now. Starting at about the 10:40 mark:

            Jennifer: “In the poem, which you say has these nine clues, there are references to water, there’s references to Brown’s house. Who’s Brown?”

            Fenn: “There’s references to wood.” (long delay)

            Jennifer: “But you didn’t answer my question. Who’s Brown?”

            Fenn, smiling, “Well, that’s for you to find … if I told you that, you’d go right to the chest!”

          • Zaphod,
            There are so any ways to take that small part if that interview.
            Lets have some fun.
            brown is where the chest is at.
            brown is a major clue.
            Fenn blew off the answer because it is a clue.
            fenn referenced in the wood, could be related to brown.
            fenn mentioned, in the wood, to avoid the brown question.
            fenn didn’t attempt to correct “house.”
            fenn did answer “who brown” is or even that if it is a who.
            fenn’s actual response was good salesmanship. Keeps everyone interested.
            If we knew what hoB is… the poem is basically solved.
            To be honest, the only real answer here was, imo, ““Well, that’s for you to find..”
            There is another video, with fenn and an male interviewer standing by a tree… don’t recall which one. The interview in mean, not the tree… The man asked about hoB and fenn replies [ not a quote ] I said I yesterday i didn’t want to answer / talk about that.
            I bring it up only for the fact… I’m not sure which interview was first. And, imo, fenn just doesn’t want to talk about a clue in the poem.

            But this was [ as far as I can recall ] the first time, fenn making reference to ‘in the wood’ directly.
            Makes one think about what is a clue and what is not… should, in the wood be considered a clue, what does that do for all those 9 liners solve? That’s not a dig… it’s a serious inquiry.

          • Seeker

            wasn’t that the interview (with tree) from that Australian reporter who asks Forrest to define ‘north’?
            I was quite impressed with the patience (and logic) that Forrest expressed in his answer, as I would have ‘released the hounds’ already, well before then.

            also, re: if I told you that, you’d go straight to the chest – I think Forrest secretly enjoys the odd devious hyperbole

            ..but if I told you that Seeker, I’d have to shoot you.
            🙂

          • You guys are awesome. There are many very bright people here, but certain people such as Seeker, Zap and Vox get their points across without being arrogant and condescending.

            You are right, sometimes its hard to nail down exactly what Fenn means. I enjoy listening to all opinions from guys like you, I really do.

          • Wy-MIG: thank you very much for your reply! I do try to make an honest effort to communicate clearly and fairly without ridicule or prejudice. Even when I fail in this, I take to heart Forrest’s comment that if the attempt was sincere, I will have at least succeeded in making a solid try.

          • WyMustIgo ~ “Seeker… get their points across without being arrogant and condescending.”
            I’ll try harder… lol. I mean, thanks.

          • Hehe, im serious Seeker. You and a few others always have well thought out replies, and you never seem to have an attitude of “haha, you noobs, I know all the secrets and I will post some very vague comment to make it look like I know things that you do not”

            Sure, nobody shares all their secrets, but you guys back yourself up with sound logic, not nonsense. Even if I might not agree with everything, I respect that you do much more than simply say “sorry noob, you’re wrong”

    • WymustIgo;

      To me, and that is just me, you are over thinking it.

      To me clue #1 = stanza #1
      Clue #2 = the first three lines of stanza #2
      Clue #3 = Put in below the hoB.

      You found wwwh – you took the canyon down NF,BTFTW – about 10 miles. You looked for a place to put in that could be a hoB. You found one either on a map or on GE…so you put in.

      You now look for a place that could be “No place for the meek.” You can Find it on a map, or GE. It may be because of a name, or rough terrain, or whatever measure you use. I found mine on GE when I found a mountain, a peak, a basin, and a creek all with a name that implied something that the meek would not cherish.

      All of these places paralleled a road – a single road with just one way in, and one way out. I took this road to the “END”. A distance somewhat less than ten miles.

      I was able to drive from hoB to END. I then walked 1/2 mile to blaze.

      Please do not try to over-think everything. Find your wwwh. Is there a “canyon down”. If not, seek a different wwwh. If there is, mark off an arc on a map 10 to 15 miles down canyon – downstream. Look for a hoB within that arc. Can’t find one, start over. If you find one, draw another arc or circle with hoB as its center – look for a “No place for the meek” within that arc or circle. If you find one, look for the next clues, “No paddle up your creek” – have you been following a water course of some kind? If not, maybe you should have . etc. etc. etc.

      Do not try to over complicate it. Word usage has been my key. I have looked up EVERY single word in the poem. These many definitions have shed light into dark recesses. Hope that they do the same for you.

      Just the mutterings of an old geezer with only two working brain cells, one of which frequently misfires.

      Good luck. I hope that you find all that you seek. JDA

      • Thanks for the well thought out feedback JDA, I appreciate it.

        I’m not trying to overthink it, but working through the poem in a stepwise fashion has not worked for me over the years. I threw away everything and started over with only the poem, TTOTC and GE/Maps. I found that everything else was leading me into rabbit holes 🙂

        I’m not sure if you would agree or not, but its starting to seem like after you nail down the starting clues, all the other ones help describe what you will see when you arrive. In other words all clues simutainously (sp?) solve to the same location. When you arrive, hoB and everything else should be obvious (this is what I struggle with though), if not then your starting point is wrong.

        Then again perhaps that is wrong, and when Fenn says we need to step back and look at the big picture, maybe he means ALL 9 clues point to one location. I can definately believe that, but the problem is that goes against the little girl comments.

        Its looking like the following is true (only in my opinion):
        + It is going to require a lot of trial and error because you cannot get closer than 2 clues without being there. This means you cannot even validate your starting location without being there.

        It is probably me being stubborn that makes me not want to agree with the statement I just made. Why? Because it means I have no chance to find it because I can only make 1 trip a year, if I am lucky. I’m on a fixed income and live in Florida, not exactly close to the Rockies hehe.

        I am kinda hoping that someone here says something that makes me confident that I am wrong and anyone has the chance to do it even if they have limited access to travel, if they can at least travel with confidence of knowing more than just 2/9 of the clues. Otherwise its a huge leap of faith on my part.

        My last trip I was extremely confident that I knew where it was. Far more confident than I was 3 years ago! LOL. I even had my maps prepared with exact positions that I expected to see a blaze, but I knew that it was going to be hard not being able to know what the blaze looks like (my theory was it is the sun, but I did not see anything related to the shadow or anything out of the ordinary)

        When I got hom and read about the 2 mirrors, I thought perhaps they are on the outside (why else 5 inch mirrors), one facing east and one on the west side. If you are east of the chest (sunrise) you will look west and see east reflected back. If you are west of it (sundown) and look east, it reflects back the west. I see it probably surrounded by rocks. I was thinking WISE might mean “W is E”, the directions are flipped by the mirrors.

        I can’t test that theory until I return, of course lol. That is kinda my point, I feel as if I have everything but a blaze figured out, but there is no way I can go with confidence from FL, I need to be in WY to go with confidence but only if I am right about what to look for in the first place.

        Thanks again guys, you rock.

        • “I am kinda hoping that someone here says something that makes me confident that I am wrong and anyone has the chance to do it even if they have limited access to travel, if they can at least travel with confidence of knowing more than just 2/9 of the clues.”

          I truly believe you can know all the clues in advance – even though I have had to do my journey by trial and a lot of error – and it’s not over yet. I just feel its doubtful that anyone can do it in one go without making any mistakes.

          To try to help you have a little confidence that the clues are not mostly referring to one place, try looking for every definition of “quickly,” and see if a particular interpretation helps you understand the movement that may be involved.

          Thanks also for the kind words earlier.

          • I’ve been thinking that “quickly down” means the horizon, probably into the sunset just like you would at Stone Henge during the right time.

            Another theory I have is the following. Lets say the poem took you to an artifact, or maybe a monument. Just like a painting or exibit in a museum, when you look quickly down you would see a “title”, usually a brass plate, maybe a piece of slate or something else with text “etched” or carved into it. That text might contain the information you need, hence the reason why you cannot see it online (perhaps).

            I am now kinda leaning towards the second one because it kind of describes what an archeologist would do when he found an artifact. He/she would study it (marvel gaze) and become educated (wise) to learn its story. Like Forrest says, everything has a story, how did that arrowhead get here? What was the owner like? How long has it been here? When you gain that knowledge, it can will lead you to other artifacts nearby to keep the chain of events going forward.

            One of my failed solves led me to a monument that was relatively new. I looked at it and thought oh man, I failed, no chest nearby. Then I realized that this item had a history, and it came into existence replacing an old monument. Hmm, so I found riches new? Perhaps I need to research the old monument to find out where riches old are. Where do old monuments go? They may get destroyed (because they are tired and weak), they may get repurposed (for example near Cody they have many repurposed monuments), or maybe they were put in a graveyard (scrap yard in this case).

            So “what if” the 9th clue leads you to something that you need to research to find the chest? You do not take the 9th clue, but the research you do will take you to the point that you will “walk with confidence to the chest”.

            Lets look at an example. Jesse James gang would carve maps onto a stone, they would then hide the stone in a tree. “What if” the poem leads us to “the map”, and “the map” would only be useful to someone who has decoded the poem? This is one solid example I can come up with that describes how you can walk with confidence, you will have a map. So FF might not mean you will go through all the clues with confidence, but you will go to the chest with confidence!

            Perhaps clues 1-3 lead you to this “map/item”. Maybe the item is too large to take, but it contains a map that only someone who uncovered clues 4-9 will be able to interpret?

            Now that is something I can see Fenn doing. That would explain why the little girl cant get closer than 2 clues (because she cannot see the map, without the map clues 3-9 will not make any sense (just throwing out an opinion here). It would also explain why you will walk with confidence, once you see the map the other clues will make everything fall into place.

            This also opens up another possibility. How does Forrest know with such confidence that the chest has not been found? What if the chest is hidden in New Mexico but the clues to the map send you to Montana or Wyoming (or CO)? He can be very secret about the hiding spot, make it almost impossible to stumble upon! Why? Because without accessing all the first few clues, you will never have the map that leads to a secluded very out of the vacinity of humans, and yet his poem clues can be in a VERY PUBLIC place?

            Another bonus… The chest is at a spot large enough had he wanted to turn to ashes there. But the clues and the, lets call it an etched map, do not have to be large or private enough to hold a corpse. Many people rule out public places because FF would not want to die there, and his corpse would easily be found, etc. So they do not even look there.

            Also… the chest is not associated with a structure. But who says the map might not be an already famous map carved into a stone at a major park? Or in a museum?

            We take a picture of this thing/map/etching/brass plate/carving, whatever it might be. Then we run the last 6 clues on that item. For example lets say the carving shows a creek being paddled up, and a fork or another way to go. What if “no paddle up your creek” does NOT refer to something we can see on GE/Map, but we can see it on the “right map”?

            Am I making any sense?

          • “I just feel its doubtful that anyone can do it in one go without making any mistakes.”

            This isn’t exactly true, because the solve that actually picks up the chest, was done in one trip and didn’t make any mistakes.”

            it reminds me of that old Edison comment…..(snipped from original)….

            “I speak without exaggeration when I say that I have constructed three thousand different theories in connection with the electric light, each one of them reasonable and apparently to be true. ”

            ….or this one for a chuckle…..

            The book quotes Edison’s friend and associate Walter S. Mallory:

            “I said: ‘Isn’t it a shame that with the tremendous amount of work you have done you haven’t been able to get any results?’ Edison turned on me like a flash, and with a smile replied: ‘Results! Why, man, I have gotten lots of results! I know several thousand things that won’t work!'”

        • From my previous post, you should be able to discern that I feel that you can solve everything from your armchair and/or computer throug all of clue #4 which I think is all of stanza #3. To me, clue #5 = all of stanza #4. I think that you have to have an idea as to what the blaze is, but not know exactly what it is before you put boots on the ground.

          Clue #5, to me, MAY be one of the more difficult to solve. What is the blaze? It must be able to last hundreds, if not, thousands of years, so probably is not a tree or a marking on a tree. It is probably
          natural. like a cliff face, or a waterfall. It is probably fairly large.

          “Look quickly down” to means far more than look at your feet. “…tarry scant…marvel gaze…” probably means more than “Don’t ogle” – Justr take the chest and go in peace probably means more than just the simple words.
          Clue #6 “So why …all to seek” to me means more than why ff hid the treasure. and Clue #7, “The answers…now I’m weak” probably mean more than why ff hid it, and why we must find it.

          To me clue #8, “So hear me…worth the cold” are a clue, and a warning.

          To me clue #9, If you are brave…title to the gold.” actually tell me where “In there” is in stanza #1, and this leads to an EXACT wwwh.

          So, to me, once I find the blaze, the search is FAR from over. LOTS of details remain that tell me EXACTLY where the TC is secreted. After I found the blaze, it has taken me four months to zero in on the exact place I feel that the treasure lies. 4 months = four trips. NOT because I am stupid, but because there are so many possibilities to uncover AFTER the blaze has been found. SOOOOO many different interpretation to the simplest of words and sentences.. I hope to prove all of this correct soon, provided the weather holds. JDA

        • WhyMustIGo,

          I think you brought up great points that should give you confidence to head out. No need to look for confidence from what others say.

        • For WYMustIGo:

          “Its looking like the following is true (only in my opinion):
          + It is going to require a lot of trial and error because you cannot get closer than 2 clues without being there. This means you cannot even validate your starting location without being there.”

          You can put me firmly in the camp that I believe this statement is false. Hopefully this will be a source of encouragement for you. (grin)

          “It is probably me being stubborn that makes me not want to agree with the statement I just made.”

          Trust your stubbornness. Having to make 30, 40, or 50 trips into the Rockies is not something the “average person” can afford to do, and besides, if you’ve been on 49 prior failed trips, how can you seriously “move with confidence” on the 50th?

          If you feel you’ve only solved two clues and can only afford annual trips to investigate your partial solution, my opinion is that you should keep working at it and save your resources for a more solid start. Keep in mind that there are plenty of searchers (myself included) who have gone out with full end-to-end solves before ever putting BOTG, and all have come back without the chest. So hoping to solve 7 clues while at a candidate 2-clue starting point sounds a bit optimistic. Just keep reminding yourself that all the clues you need are in the poem, and the answers are found on maps.

          • Zap – I’m 100% in agreement with what you say.

            All the following is IMO. I don’t believe F expected searchers to spend excessive amounts of time or resources to secure the chest. If that was the criteria then many would be eliminated from the start.

            I used to be in the camp that thinks the poem is secondary to other tools in this chase. After seeing things differently I believe that the poem is the most useful tool for finding the chest. Other items are needed as well, but the poem contains the answers. When I began searching I didn’t rule anything out however I was pretty focused on the solve that I manufactured which relied heavily on the books. I have now changed course with reliance upon the poem to lead me to the chest. F was so right when he said go back to the poem but if you are like me it’s hard to focus on the poem. It will pay dividends if you do though.

            Again, IMO, F has given those that have the TTOTC book enough information to come up with the correct solve. When f said that he was a little surprised that nobody to his certain knowledge had considered one important possibility relating to a correct solve, I see that reply that he is surprised that nobody has figured out his usage of the poem and book. While f deserves immense credit, his poem will be solved at some point. He chose to use a poem that would stump many for a long time and when the complete solve is revealed it really will cause others to admonish themselves for not seeing it. F is a master at disguise.

            In closing we don’t need to know anything other than the poem, TTOTC, and GE/good map. F really outdid himself when creating this chase!

          • I felt the same way too, but clearly it isn’t working. It looks like, at least accoding to Fenn, nobody has gotten past the first few clues. The chase was designed to get people out of the house, so it kinda makes sense that you cannot solve it fully without being there.

            We (all of us) are clearly missing something IMO. Forrest stated the girl from India cannot get closer than the first 2 clues. Then Forrest told a reporter that if he told her what the hoB was, she would walk right to the chest. This means that hoB is not one of the first 2 clues, else the girl from India can find the chest. But the question remains, if knowing hoB the first 2 clues plus hoB will be enough information to go to the chest, what about the other 6 clues?

            Then, OTOH if the successful searcher will “walk in confidence” (or something like that), that is impossible to do without having more than the first 2 clues.

            So how do we explain that and still do so without messing with the poem? One way is with a “special map”, which is exactly what I am suggesting as a possibility.

            None of us can say what map the clues in the poem are describing locations on. He could have had 2 clues lead you to an etched rock for all we know, and the etching on that rock is decoded with clues 3-9. If he did this, the statement that the clues lead to the treasure is true. It might be that the reason everyone failed to find the chest so far is we are trying to fit the clues to a location in Google Earth for example, and yet we have no proof that all the clues have anything to do with GE or any real map.

            Or, suppose clues 1-8 lead to a place with coordinates on a blaze that when used with the poem take us to the 9th clue and then the chest?

            We don’t know. But IMO what we need to do is look for other options, clearly using the poem as a map is not working for anyone. Perhaps that is because we have the wrong map?

            Keep in mind I never said that anything other than the poem is used. That does not mean that one or more clues don’t require interpretation while on the ground.

            Trust me, I want to be able to solve 100% of the poem from my couch, but its looking like that might not be possible, and there are probably thousands of failures to back it up. Time for us to look for new ways that fit within FF’s parameters and without modifying the poem?

            Does anyone have other suggestions? Saying use only the poem is not a suggestion, saying how to use the poem is a suggestion 🙂

          • zaphod – I did not mean I only had 2 clues, I’ve had all the clues maybe twice in almost 3 years, but no chest. Solving all 9 clues at home has not worked yet in over six years and 100,000 searchers. So I am trying to look at other options, all of us are clearly missing something (even according to Fenn).

          • Many thanks, HearMeAll! One small correction: no one to my UNcertain knowledge is the Fenn quote. The “important possibility” and the “word that is key” should be factors that solvers can confidently attach to their solves, and if they can’t, perhaps they need a tweak to what they’ve come up with.

          • Hi WYMustIGo: happy to hear that at least in the past you were venturing out with more than just 2 clues. I would stick to that strategy. Pay no attention to the 50,000, 100,000 or more searchers that you believe have failed with that approach. That’s not why they failed. And don’t be so sure about Forrest’s public progress report: it is unavoidably outdated. Out of the tens of thousands that have gone searching, the majority are in the wrong states, a very small fraction have the first two clues right, and an even smaller fraction are further along than that. I would just ignore them. If Indulgence hasn’t been found, the ever-evolving statistics don’t much matter.

          • Zap – To date it would appear that nobody can claim to have the correct strategy. Many good ones have been posted, but none worked.

            Statistics do not matter, you are right, but claims that you can’t get past the first 2 clues, or that knowing hoB allows you to walk right to the chest do matter, at least to me. I trust that FF is not misleading us, so the only answer is we are doing something wrong, we are missing something.

            Some people make claims that there is this “secret key” and they have it all figured out, yet they have nothing to back it up.

            I definately believe that all you need is the poem, TToTC, and a good map. I do not believe you need to look for hidden images, anagrams, letter or word substitution, language translation, bible quotes, history books, etc.

            Out of all the searchers I would bet the majority have never left their house. Others have searched locally if they live in one of the four states. Very few are probably close, most are on vacations. That is why it hasn’t been found IMO, few seem to think that certain clues may only be interpreted while there.

            The only fact we have is that unless the chest is found, not a single person can claim they have all the information figured out. People assume you can validate a solve using book hints, SB’s, and Fenn Q&A but that is not known to be true either. It is more likely that stuff throws us all off IMO 🙂

            Thanks for the feedback as usual!

          • WY-MIG: long post I see, so I will append my comments inline.

            “Zap – To date it would appear that nobody can claim to have the correct strategy. Many good ones have been posted, but none worked.”

            You are more generous. I think most of the solutions posted have been pretty weak.

            “…claims that you can’t get past the first 2 clues, or that knowing hoB allows you to walk right to the chest do matter, at least to me.”

            They shouldn’t. Both statements are easily explained away. The little girl in India debate is honestly ridiculous. I don’t know how many times I’ll have to repeat it but Jenny SPECIFIED the map. A crappy map. An utterly worthless map past the first two clues. She gave Forrest an incredibly easy out. You would be best to completely ignore anything having to do with the TLGII (or TLGFI if you prefer the altered form). As for the home of Brown remark, again this is a lark. This wasn’t a written comment from Forrest where he had lots of time to craft a response; it was a live interview, with a spur of the moment response, which he delivered perhaps somewhat in annoyance. I would translate it thus: “Right, like I’m going to reveal a huge clue that’s well into the puzzle! You think I’m an idiot?!”

            “Some people make claims that there is this “secret key” and they have it all figured out, yet they have nothing to back it up.”

            Well, consider this. Suppose you discovered something rather clever or sneaky in the poem that was utterly unexpected, yet undeniable, and clearly a huge clue (at least in your mind). Would you reveal it to long-time posters and lurkers alike? I doubt it. Perhaps the proof that you and others require for such claims is impossible to provide without just giving the answer.

            “Out of all the searchers I would bet the majority have never left their house. Others have searched locally if they live in one of the four states. Very few are probably close, most are on vacations. That is why it hasn’t been found IMO, few seem to think that certain clues may only be interpreted while there.”

            I certainly hope you are right! My biggest worry is that there are a large number of dedicated searchers who seem to be able to spend every spare weekend out searching. But my solace is that the more time they spend looking, the less time they spend thinking. I don’t think this is a complex physical search; I think it’s a very difficult cerebral one.

          • “I don’t think this is a complex physical search; I think it’s a very difficult cerebral one.”

            Zap, this is, IMO, one of the most rational statements that has been posted here recently. It’s a good thing your not searching in my area – you’re not, are you? 😉

          • Zap – As usual thanks for the excellent reply. You raise some very good points about the little girl story that I had not considered.

          • Zap – “I don’t think this is a complex physical search; I think it’s a very difficult cerebral one.”

            Like Yogi Berra used to say, “The Chase, like baseball, is 90% mental, and the other half is physical.”

          • Zap – “I don’t think this is a complex physical search; I think it’s a very difficult cerebral one.”

            SF podcast; fenn. [ media thread ].
            “It’s not a matter of trying, it’s a matter of thinking… I mean, people have figured out the first two clues and unfortunately walked past the treasure chest.”

            Hmmm! I wonder what those ‘people’ were thinking?

    • WyMustIGo

      “We apparently cannot deciper clues 3 – 9 without being there”

      I don’t recall reading any statements to that effect (?)

      • Most Curious,

        It seems that some turn LGFI use of her map of the Rockies and the poem into a barrier for only being able to solve two clues prior to BOTG. I don’t think any serious searcher here has just tried to figure out clues with a map of the Rocky Mountains. Much more detailed maps would be in order. Must be the question that was the limiting aspect for F’s answer.

      • Most Fundamental

        I don’t think I implied that any searchers (serious or otherwise) have confined themselves to some vague map of the Rockies, and firmly believe that the right USGS map could be invaluable to a solve.

        I have simply (recently) considered that botg may be necessary (possibly, but not obviously nor apparently), in order to solve at least one of the clues, given my interpretations of Forrests three sentences regarding this whole LGRI debacle, and the map of the Rockies was not included in those considerations.

        I strongly doubt that Forrest would ever need to limit his answers, in any aspect, to any question – but you could be right.
        🙂

        • Curious the Most,

          I was not implying that you implied any of the above. You asked a question and I answered in regards to what others have posted on the subject of TLGI and how many clues can be solved before BOTG.

          I do believe Forrest limits his answers to some questions. Maybe you can get him to say the word “Colorado” for us…:)

        • Fundamentally the Mostest

          yeah, I get that now – I s’pose I figured that I’d rattled a few too many cages (with my Galilei style suggestion that the puzzle couldn’t be entirely pre-solved) and was expecting the mobs to arrive with flaming pitchforks at any moment – just like on the movies.
          (so apologies for barking)

          Is that Colorado with a K ..or a C?
          (spelling isn’t my strongest suit)
          🙂

          • Curious how Mollasses Tastes,

            I’ll take Colarado served up with a unbent C or a kookie K…mmmm cookie.

  27. I cannot edit my post, but I want to clear up its meaning here.

    What if the blaze is an object that has a map of some sorts carved or etched into it. Perhaps it is in a very public place, very large, cannot be removed, and is maybe even famous for its past (maybe its an old Jesse James stone in a museum?

    Now what if the first stanza leads you to the blaze/map? Maybe the first 2 clues lead you to this blaze/map?

    Once you are standing at this blaze, the rest of the clues are applied not to your current location, but they are applied to the blaze itself?

    For example, suppose the creek you are not paddling up is an indication that on this blaze it depicts many things, one is a creek, but you are not supposed to go that way. Instead, you follow the markings on the blaze to a place not for the meek?

    The blaze/map when looked at without the poem might lead you to a famous geyser. But if you apply your poem to the blaze/map, it takes you instead to the real chest location! In other words “Begin it where warm waters halt and take it in the canyon down” might be obvious when looking at the blaze, but if you are looking at the location of the blaze in GE and trying to apply the poem to that current location, it will not fit, because the poem is not using a real map, it is using perhaps a carving?

    Lets give a better example, but note I am not saying the chest is in a theme park, LOL.
    1. Stanza one lets say gets you to Disney World
    2. You arrive at Disney and you look at the map of Disney
    3. You apply the rest of the clues in stanza 2 – 6 on the DISNEY map, not real life. Maybe warm waters halt at the log flume? No place for the meek is a haunted house?
    4. More specifically lets say Disney has a map that guides you from the entrance to Space Mountain. But instead of going up creek lane to Space Mountain, on the Disney map we notice there is a fork that would take you to a haunted house. So no paddle up your creek might mean head towards the haunted house.

    Or….

    You enter Browns Park in Colorado. You grab a map of the park, but when you apply the poem to the points on that map, it actually leads you out of the park and right to the chest?

    Or…

    Stanza one leads you to a museum where there is a treasure map by Jesse James carved in stone on exibit. If you apply the rest of the poem to Jesse’s carved map, it doesn’t take you to Jesse’s loot, it takes you to Fenns chest. Millions of people will see Jesse’s map, but none of them will know that if you overlay Fenns poem on that map it takes you directly to his chest, you can walk with confidence too even though you only were able to research the first two clues online like the little girl from India.

    I dunno guys and gals, but this sounds very possible, so much so that I bet someone already discussed the possiblity! It would explain a ton of questions!

    + It would allow the poem to lead to a location that is very safe and very public!
    + It would allow the poem to describe clues that will never form a solution to the real world without the map/blaze
    + The location would not need to be private and large enough to hold human remains of Forrest
    + It would allow the chest tto be in a VERY secluded location almost impossible to stumble upon
    + It is still true that the poem leads you to the chest because without the poem you could not properly interpret the map/blaze/marker.
    + It allows for the poem to take you through places Forrest loved from his past, but still hide the chest someplace new (i.e. poem takes you to WY, but the blaze with poem applied takes you to New Mexico).
    + No safe deposit boxes or bronze jars are used as a proxy
    + None of Forrests Q&A were misleading
    + We only used the poem and a map to find the location to begin at. We used no ciphers, no anagrams, in no way did we mess with the poem.
    + It allows for a chase that could last a long time, especially if the blaze is on protected land
    + It allows hiding the chest instead of a proxy item

    I dunno, this all sounds very plausable (sp?) to me. I could very well be wrong, but it certainly would explain why that poor little India girl could nt get closer than 2 clues if 2 clues lead to the blaze and 7 of them tell you how to decode the blaze and walk with confidence.

    Is it possible for Goofy or Dal to copy this to its own discussion? Or do you all think it belongs here?

    I am very interested in what you all think!

    • I agree, IMO, it’s likely that we must learn something at the first clue. I don’t believe the item we learn, at the first clue, is from a map of that area; however, I love new ideas, & this is a GREAT new idea. Thanks for this wonderful new idea! This was a fun idea to think and dream about; however, I’m not sure a map of a local area like Brown’s Park will be available in 100 or more years. Regarding the map of Jesse James: remember the Treasure isn’t close to a human trail.

      The Golden Retrievers and Sandy B are joining forces to search for the Treasure Chest next week. Watch out Indulgence, here we come! The Golden Retrievers and Sandy B had a planning meeting two days ago. That meeting was just like a Mensa International meeting. (Just kidding: we probably sounded more like a couple 6th-grade-girls at a sleepover.) We’re going to have fun!

      • GR;

        You said, “,remember the Treasure isn’t close to a human trail.” From the cheat sheet above, the actual quote is:♦ “There isn’t a human trail in very close proximaty to where I hid the treasure.f”” – Not much of a difference, but possibly enough to mislead someone. Just my opinion – JDA

    • WyMustIGo –

      I neither agree nor disagree with the specifics of your suggestions, but –

      In concept, it’s quite a brilliant Lateral Think, a sharp elbow to the temple that knocked a lot of junk off the shelves in my skull.

      I’ve been trying to pull my narrowly-focused nose out of the atlas since my autumn trips, and now I can let it all alone for awhile until my eyes re-adjust to natural light.

      Thanks for sharing it!

    • WyMustIGo –

      I neither agree nor disagree with the specifics of your suggestions, but –

      In concept, it’s quite a brilliant Lateral Think, a sharp elbow to the temple that knocked a lot of junk off the shelves in my skull.

      I’ve been trying to pull my narrowly-focused nose out of the atlas since my autumn trips, and now I can let it all alone for awhile until my eyes re-adjust to natural light and the big picture.

      Thanks for sharing it!

  28. I disagree.

    I agree that BOTG is needed, but I do not agree that you need to make countless trips.

    As far as losing everything, that will never happen to me. I’m too old and wise to do something as foolish as spending what I can’t afford to.

    I am applying the same success I had with my software engineering career to any problem I try to solve, such as the chase.

    You are obviously a smart person, many people here are smart. There will always be some people get so into it, they start flinging darts on the map and make tons of trips, I am not one of them. I also do not gamble much if at all, I watch too many people over the past 50+ years throw away a fortune.

    Fortunately for me I was able to get enough money prior to becoming disabled.

  29. Even though I told him I no longer wanted his help, Billy Barty appeared in a dream again.

    He said “But tarry scant with marvel gaze” and pointed at the sun. “Don’t look at it too long— it’s bad for your eyes” he said. He giggled and walked away pointing towards Wyoming.

    I’m not sure what to believe. 🙂

    • Sparrow,

      Regarding your recent Billy Barty dream. You are lucky that I stumbled onto this because I have a little gift for interpretation. Some dreams are nearly entirely symbolic and that is the case here. In a nutshell, your body wants you to lay-off the hot/spicy food. That was not Wyoming he was pointing to…butt…”why is it that I must go,” is applicable.

  30. I keep some things secret 🙂

    The thing is I like to contribute and share information, in a way its all I can do to try and give back. A lot of people contribute very useful information, I’ve learned a lot over the years.

    Some people like to lurk, that is fine too, but I don’t know why. Its not like someone is going to give up a complete solve to a lurker, so I am not sure what they’d be looking for. May as well try to contribute.

    I would be a liar if I said that all I have learned was my own idea. There are too many people who have been searching that have learned far more than I did. If something I say helps someone with their personal solve, that is fine with me, I just hope it is someone that has been an active contributor and not a sponge 🙂

    I especially like ideas that deviate from the norm. Not way outside the box, but something that many many not have thought of.

    I even read stuff that I do not agree with, for example, anagrams, ciphers, and stegonography. I think the poem needs to work as it stands, but that does not mean that a post related to an anagram will not stuble onto something I never thought of. The issue becomes information overload, confirmation bias, and everything seems to fit almost any solution. So as of late I try to keep this stuff limited.

    Forrest has said that the clues, if followed consecutively (not in his exact words), will lead to the chest. He does not say how the clues will do that. He also said a clue leads you to the chest, a hint helps you solve a clue.

    Over the past 2.5 years I have been working on solutions where the clues all point to a location to start, then they step me through to the chest. It has not worked well for me, so my line of thouhgt was perhaps I am applying the clues to the wrong map. I think it would be genius if the poem was meant to use an existing famous map, but that map is only used for points of interest as they apply to Fenn’s poem. In other words the map leads you to where Fenn sends you, not where the map was created to send you. Only the first two clues in the poem, maybe, lead you to this “other map”. And since the “other map” might not be able to be moved, you need to be there to interpret it. Or maybe he created the map on a flat surface, who knows, I just have a gut feeling there is something we need to see before we can solve clues 3-9. Once we have seen it, we can then use the intelligence gathered in order to solve the rest of the clues.

    Perhaps heavy loads and waters high is on this other map/blueprint/drawing/whatever we want to call it 🙂

    I’m not really giving out secret info here, I do not even mention such a map/blueprint/drawing/carving/etc.

    Many people like to use numbers, perhaps the numbers we seek are on one of the locations at a clue 1 and 2? It would certainly make moving with confidence possible if clues 3 – 9 relate to “something” nobody has discovered yet. Those who were there and solved clues 1 and 2 might not have realized the significance of what they were standing by. Those who were within 200 feet and not knowing it might have followed the right map without applying the remaining clues to alter their path that the right map goes to by default.

    Either way, no secrets here, just a “what if”. I have read analogies such as the poem being the recipie for a cake, well suppose the poem supplies the legend for an existing map?

  31. All,
    After reading the recent comments, I thought of this quote from F:
    “The blueprint is challenging so the treasure may be located by the one who can best adjust.” (1 July 2016)
    Perhaps, for searchers to have “thought, and analyzed, and moved with confidence” as they look for TC, they will need to construct numerous 9-clues theories (there, see, I stayed on topic), and then prove (eventually) all but one of them false. IMO, some 9-clues theories may be proved false through research, while other theories may be only proved false through BOTG. IMO, the better the theory, the fewer trips are needed. (My theories must not be that great; I just realized that I have lost track of the number of trips that we have made.) Safe searching, everyone!
    Geoff
    “Have flashlight, will travel”

    • Wow, Geoff, that’s a tall order! Numerous (plausible) 9-clue theories would be incredibly challenging. It’s taken me years to develop one theory into a potentially complete solution. Also, wouldn’t it be difficult to have confidence in any of them, if you had multiple candidates?

      Rather than spending time on many theories, most of which must (by definition) fail, wouldn’t it be better to go back to the beginning and trace the path very carefully to see where a particular theory falls down? I believe that if you can prove to yourself that your WWH is absolutely correct, the rest should follow, eventually. And I do sincerely believe there is a way to prove it – beyond reasonable doubt!

    • Hey Geoff…..my son’s name is Geoffrey! :o)

      Besides that point…..and onto your post….

      Fenn’s mystical metaphors have been challenging since he began speaking them.

      ““The blueprint is challenging so the treasure may be located by the one who can best adjust.” (1 July 2016)”

      But this quote…..wow….I must have missed this one…..because I don’t recall seeing it.

      Anyhow…..if we ponder a moment on the diction of statement, one can actually extract some information.

      “The blueprint is challenging” – can allude to the terrain being not the run of the mill trail. Could also infer land changes – as a river will cause erosion and thus the path of the river meanders.

      “so the treasure may be located by the one who can best adjust.”
      – with my thoughts above, it could result in a change to the initial location. Could erosion cause the chest to “move” slightly….but enough to cause an adjustment with a good solve?

      Thanks for posting!

      • IMO, the meaning may be more simple; that we searchers, as we read the poem written by an architect, need to adjust the marks on our maps. But remember, like the rest of you, I don’t have the chest in hand. Safe searching, everyone!
        Geoff
        “Have flashlight, will travel”

  32. Timothy, your post seems to have vanished where you said: “I like what you said except for the part about the 6 stanzas. Forrest needed to have 6 stanzas so that he could complete the 9 sentences and by doing that he now has his 9 clues.”

    I don’t disagree with this. My post was badly worded. I was just trying to say that since FF went to all that trouble to craft six stanzas (holding 9 clues), which he intimates is architectural, it’s unlikely that you can’t get beyond clue 2 in the poem before having to put boots on the ground. If that was the case, it would essentially mean that, after clue 2, you take the words in stanzas 3 and 4 at face value. What you then do with stanzas 5 and 6, I don’t know.

    To me, there just isn’t sufficient information in the words of those central stanzas, on their own, to pinpoint a spot a few feet in circumference. I know a great many searchers have come up with ingenious solutions using this kind of approach, so maybe I’m just not tuned in to that wavelength.

  33. Just wondering about the HOB statement… ‘you would go right to it”….. Why assume “it” is the treasure? Maybe “it” is the HOB.
    Maybe “put in below” is a warning because “it” is attractive but is also private property, restricted area, dangerous, etc.

    If you think “it” is the treasure, you will believe “it” is not far away.

      • So basically once you know what hoB is, you know where the chest is.

        Now since we also know that the little girl cannot get closer than the frst 2 clues, it has to also be true that hoB is not the 3rd clue because if it was, you would be able to go to the chest with only 3 clues. What happened to the other 6 clues?

        IMO this must mean that hoB is either not a clue, or it means the chest is within sight of the hoB.

        Since hoB is mentioned in stanza 2, unless all 9 clues are in the first two stanzas, or the poem does not start at stanza one, how would be “walk right to the chest” if we know by the end of stanza 2 where it is?

        + A lot of people think stanza 1 has at least 1 clue
        + A lot of people assume the first sentence of stanza 2 is 2, or maybe 3 clues, it is certainly at least 1 clue.
        + A lot ofpeople think hoB is a clue
        + Forrest says if you knew hoB you would walk right to the chest

        So here we are only 8 lines into the poem.
        We solved 3 – 5 clues (depending on who you ask).
        We would know where the chest is by now based on Fenn saying “We would walk right to the chest” [knowing what hoB is]

        So what are the other 6 – 3 clues for?

        Something doesn’t make sense. At one point I figured the other 3-6 clues describe what you will see when standing at the hoB, but him saying you would walk right to it kind of throws that theory out the door.

        The only way I can explain it is that FF was talking about all of her questions, not just the hoB, But she did repeat Brown a few times stressing it.

        These may seem like silly questions, but if the poem is the most important thing, it is extremely important that we fully understand it. I know it kind of sounds like splitting hairs here, but then again this blog section is about the clues 🙂

        • Hmmm……
          Wy I’ll have to ponder what you are saying. I need to go back and catch up on what you’ve said in your past posts so I can understand better where you’re coming from.
          I have to go do a few things right now but should have some time later to catch up on my reading. I have 4-5 days worth of blog posts that I missed.
          The other WY

        • Hi WMIG,

          “So basically once you know what hoB is, you know where the chest is.”

          For my solution, that’s definitely not true. I would imagine that for many (most?) searchers, knowing what/where home of Brown is would not tell you where the chest is. Others can chime in with their opinions on that score.

          “Now since we also know that the little girl cannot get closer than the frst 2 clues, it has to also be true that hoB is not the 3rd clue because if it was, you would be able to go to the chest with only 3 clues.”

          I would agree that hoB is not the third clue, but not for these reasons. Your logic is tied to one flippant remark that Forrest made in a live interview, and I think if you assume that was a literal statement you’re going to paint yourself into a corner.

          “A lot of people think stanza 1 has at least 1 clue”
          Concur. With emphasis on “at least”.

          “A lot of people assume the first sentence of stanza 2 is 2, or maybe 3 clues, it is certainly at least 1 clue.”

          Also agree, again with emphasis on “at least”.

          “A lot of people think hoB is a clue”
          Sensible.

          “Forrest says if you knew hoB you would walk right to the chest.”

          This is the line to ditch. Once you do, the conundrum of seemingly having the answer to the chest’s location in advance of solving all 9 clues disappears. Occam’s Razor at work. (smiles)

          • Let’s play a game of assumptions – Yes, I know assume = ass out of u and me but – Let’s assume you know where or what hoB is. Let’s then assume that there is only one road near where hoB is, and that that road passes near a place the meek fear to go near. The road continues 5 or 6 miles or so, and comes to a dead end. If what Forrest said about being able to walk to the treasure from hoB is true, then the treasure HAS to be either somewhere along that road, or somewhere around the end of that road. Why doesn’t this make sense? From the hoB, Forrest says, “The end (of the road) is ever drawing nigh.” Walk or drive to the end of the road. “There’ll be no paddle up your creek.” does a stream river or creek parallel your road? Probably does – Too shallow, too steep or too “wild” to paddle up?
            “Just heave loads and water high.
            You are going uphill aren’t you? Is there a lake or waterfall somewhere near?

            “If you’ve been wise and found the blaze…” Is there a bluff, a cliff face, a mountain peak, a waterfall…anything that could be a blaze?

            It all seems to fit to me. Just THINK – don’t jump to conclusions. But what do I know? NADA – JDA

          • Zap – What if Forrest is just using “home of Brown” as a label for an area he and his family (or friends) called it?

            For example, when I grew up we had many places “Eagles Field, 40 Horses, Devils Ditch”. None of them are documented but if you asked any of the students in the 60s from my town, they would know exactly where it is.

            What I am suggesting is that it may not matter. He may have even just put it there to throw people off.

            Having said that, I never made a solve without a good reason for it to be a “home of Brown”. But, maybe we’re wrong. LOL

            Thanks again for the great reply!

          • JDA – I can appreciate that you like the area you are have been searching, however it might be sage to consider another area after expending so much time in one area. If f was right about the poem leading us to the chest, you should have found it by now with the number of searches you have made in that spot. You get an A for persistence but IMO the spot you are locked onto is just a nice place to visit and void of the chest.

            I did have a solve/solution that took me to a much different state/area that I was locked onto for a period of time. After exhausting three trips of my own and having another check the area, I had to conclude that it was not the area that f had chosen.

            You can do as you wish, but I want to suggest again that the poem contains the answers in a way that you may have not considered. I was willing to adjust much like the video about the bike that was operated the opposite of what we learn. I will say that my new solve is in infancy but I feel strongly that I’m on the right track and in the right area. The poem and the book used in conjunction with the poem are very important. A good map is also of importance.

            In closing, IMO I do not have any doubts about where to start because the poem is that precise. Also I have not had to look up definitions or meanings of words in the poem at this time to help with my solve. F didn’t tell us to consult dictionaries, but he did say that geography was important. I know that some see his response to the word several as a hint to run to the dictionaries but I can’t force that into my solve no matter how hard I try.

            If you do see the poem by using another avenue of thinking you might be surprised at what you might find. Best wishes!

          • Hear me all;

            Thanks for the advice. It may be good advice. Since you do not know my reasons for staying in my same general area, I do not see how you can fairly evaluate whether I have spent too much time or not.

            I wasted four months, and four trips looking IN my creek, and not on its banks. I then wasted one trip, and one month looking above (at the top) of my waterfall.

            Add to that three months of Ice and turbulent waters, and we have now wasted eight months, out of eleven. Two more months were spent “downstream”, where the treasure wasn’t.

            All in all, I have made only one search on the banks of my creek where I feel it must be. I have only one lase area to search, and plan to search that area soon, weather permitting.

            I am wise enough to have learned from my mistakes, and have had a LOT of fun in the process. It would be a shame to quit now, when finding the treasure MAY be only one search away….But thanks for the advice anyway, I am sure that it is well-intentioned.

            JDA

          • IMO – “put in below the home of Brown.” – is a designation to a “region”. How large of a region, that is speculative. Could it be just a few feet, a few miles, or hundreds of miles?

            But just basing it upon how the context is written in the poem, it has to be a region of some sort. Sort of like the micro.macro look I’ve posted on before.

            I also believe Fenn is exaggerating a bit with “you will go right to the chest”.

            I think he has done this to force the notion that the “hoB” is a much larger place than what someone may think it could be – i.e. Ranger’s station, artist’s home or painting location, etc.

            Cheers!

          • Hearmeall ~” F didn’t tell us to consult dictionaries, but he did say that geography was important. I know that some see his response to the word several as a hint to run to the dictionaries but I can’t force that into my solve no matter how hard I try. ”

            ” F didn’t tell us to consult dictionaries…” Maybe not in those words ‘consult dictionaries’

            But he did say; I looked up words and definitions of words and changed them, went back and rebooted… It turned out exactly like I wanted.”
            Another comment;
            “The poem in my book is something that I changed over and over again. When you read the poem it looks like just simple words there. But I guarantee you that I worked on that. I felt like an architect drawing that poem.”

            HMA ~ ” I know that some see his response to the word several as a hint to run to the dictionaries but I can’t force that into my solve no matter how hard I try. ”

            I don’t think some see the one comment fenn made about looking up the word several to …hit and run to the dictionaries… But personally I think it would be a mistake not to do as he suggested in that Q&A, and other comments… Including the preface of TOTC.

            “Dear Mr. Fenn,
            The definitions of words seem to interest you. What dictionary, and year of dictionary, do you use for looking up words? ~ wordsmith
            Interesting that you would ask that Mr./Mz Wordsmith.
            I don’t use dictionaries anymore. I just type the word in Google for a faster response. It’s fun to make up words and play with different spellings. When someone calls me out after noticing the corruption of a word I use, I just smile, especially when I say something that in my mind is correct but in an academic sense it’s a horrible malfunction.
            For instance, emblazoned upon some of the bronze bells I’ve buried are the words, “Imagination is more important than knowlege.” If I had spelled that last word correctly it would not have had the profundity of meaning I wanted. To misspell the word emphasized my point that having knowledge is, in fact, not as important as being resourceful. Also, when I make a mistake through ignorance that ploy gives me a degree of deniability that I routinely need.
            Now I will test you Wordsmith. Write down the full definition of the word “several.” Then Google it and learn that many of us don’t fully understand some of the words we use every day.f “

      • Thanks WyMustGo, that blew away some smoke for me. So easily we apply shorthand and lose precision.
        OS2

  34. Wow. I’ve missed some great discussions over the last several days. Whenever I get on to an idea that I think has merit I don’t read the threads as I find them distracting. I do look at the blog from time to time and will read a new post if it pops up. F told us to read the blogs for entertainment and entertaining they are! Curious Hobbit and Joe Sparrow make me laugh, Seeker and Zap make me think, and of course I can’t forget Dal and Goofy. Dal is so sweet and Goofy is usually such a grump but I know he’s really sweet deep down. Voxpops I’m really sorry butt your last solve almost made me spit coke out my nose, lol. Poop? Really? Plausible yes, absolutely and I see how I could make it work but somehow I don’t think f did it that way, butt you never know. I Ialso always love Cynthia’s posts, I can always see in my minds eye the beautiful things she describes. Everybody on here is great and I know I didn’t mention everybody that I enjoy reading, but thanks guys for keeping this blog great!
    I’m done overthinking my idea now and have to go back and catch up on what I missed. But springs a long way away and I have some time.

    • thanks for your incredible honesty WY Girl.

      please don’t hesitate to send Joe and I our many numerous (well deserved) academy awards, and I shall endeavour to forward Joe’s share of the loot, on to him at my earliest possible convenience, without even considering melting his share down into handy ingots that are the perfect size for smuggling.

      no, honestly – that’s a promise!
      🙂

      • Thank you curious hobbit—send me your half of the loot and I promise to invest it for you wisely. 🙂

      • please consider my half of the loot en-route to you, by mule, as we speak, Sparrow (I’ve Fed-exed-it already)

        please invest it immediately into anything containing the letters T,R,U.M. or P ( ..but not necessarily in that order)

        ( ..is it ok that I’ve sent 15 ingots (roughly resembling smooth oblong pebbles) as your share?)

        – see ya in the Bahamas mate!!
        (at that bar that you told me about ..remember?)
        🙂

    • Darn….didn’t get your cut.

      Oh well, I’ll just have to keep more secrets and do less sharing.

      :o)

  35. Voxpops, and others,
    IMO, searchers will often need to modify their “map” of the 9 clues.
    (Perhaps this is what F meant when he said, “Until someone finds the treasure they will not know for sure that they have discovered the first clue.”)
    For example, a searcher may be either researching (using the poem, TTOTC, and a good map) or be actually searching on the ground, and realize, tentatively, that what was thought to be “clue X” is actually “clue Y”. At this point, the searcher may, for example, grab a fresh copy of the map, and begin again making marks on the map, and perhaps plan yet one more trip to a site.
    IMO, this process will eventually lead either to the discovery of TC, or to the realization that clue 1 is actually somewhere else. In fact, Voxpops, it sounds to me like our processes are not really all that different; perhaps just expressed a little differently.
    The other issue: how searchers can have “thought, and analyzed and moved with confidence.” My suspicion is that there is a pattern out there.
    (That reminds me of the phrase from The Right Stuff: “There was a demon out there, and its name was Mach 1.) IMO, we searchers are looking for that pattern.
    Safe searching, everyone!
    Geoff
    “Have flashlight, will travel”

    • Geoff, thanks for clarifying your process – it makes much more sense to me now. And you’re right, it isn’t all that different from what I’ve been doing – although I wish I’d been a bit more savvy a lot earlier! It’s exhausting thinking you’ve reached the end, only to find there’s more, and more, and…

      As for a pattern – yes! I can really associate with that idea, and that’s what I believe “drawing” is referring to, in part.

  36. Speaking about maps and plotting dots/lines on it…

    Below is a video link to Forrest, Douglas Preston and another writer in the video, all three of them are talking. I noticed something that might be interesting that Doug Preston said, and if I remember correctly take a look at Forrest

    Although I was already plotting various lines on my maps (my solve is based around avation in part), Doug said something like this:

    “Maybe it is a good idea if searchers were to read the book and plot the course it takes”. Those are not the exact words,but its what he was suggesting.

    So my map is a combination of real life aviation maps (with NAV beacons and other tools) overlaid onto GE.

    Not everyone flies a plane, but when reading the poem try to imagine yourself flying. You fly your “approach” over your WWH into the canyon down and put in (land) lets say about 10 miles down right below your hoB. From there you are on the ground. But on the way, be sure to be wise enough to look quickly down at any potential blaze, definately look down on the runway blaze! But tarry scant with marvel gaze, most runways are very short, their end is always drawing nigh.

    Think about the following for a moment.

    Fenn is in south Vietnam and is called in for his next mission pre-briefing.
    He is given secret instructions of where his target will be
    He enters his plane alone (well, with heavy loads of bombs and ammo)
    He takes off and heads north
    When near his target he descends (puts in) towards his blaze, looks quickly down to confirm and drops his bombs. This is no place for the meek.
    He quickly pulls up, hits the after burner and gets out of dodge looking for targets of opportunity on the way back

    ~20 years later he gets cancer and writes the poem. This flight however is to that special place that he wanted to return to (just like he wanted to return, and did return, to the spot with the waterfalls and French soldier graves). So the poem at this point is describing what you will see on your way there (from a plane), and where to go once you land.

    Anyway, I am repeating myself. Its all just my opinion and something different, another way to view the poem. Fenn spent over 20 years flying, and then kept his license for almost 25 years more. He is a pilot, he loves to discover new places, and he is an archeologist. So to me, it makes sense. You do not need to be a pilot, thats why I think he says to use your imagination. By “big picture” he may mean from the sky.

    But check out the video with Fenn, Doug, and the other man. Watch Fenns reaction after Doug says something similar to “plot a course on a map, maybe that will help”.

    Here is the video (watch at time around 12:30 ):
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?&v=ti2peP8jWYM#t=750

  37. Oh yes, Happy Birthday Mrs. Fenn,
    I remember Mr. Fenn once saying, “She’s as beautiful today as the first day I met her”. For once he didn’t need to embellish.

  38. Happy Birthday Peggy!
    I hope you have a most wonderful day!
    Keep on keeping Forrest in line 🙂

  39. Happy Birthday Peggy;

    You are quite the lady…Still letting your man do what he loves most. No wonder there is still a twinkle in his eye, a true reflection of you. JDA

  40. ““Forrest has said: you should NOT spend more than you can afford to do this Chase”
    Timothy….”

    This actually – in some direct way – goes along with “keep it simple” or “don’t overthink it.”

    Straight-forward. Concise. Direct. Simple.

    I’m in the camp that thinks FF wants someone to find the chest. I’m also one to believe that he is a simple guy who likes to ensure simplicity is always available at his request. Thus, the poem is “simple” and will simply “lead you the chest”, “if you don’t mess with it”.

    Combining words, extracting words, making anagrams of words are rabbit holes that will lead the seeker no where.

    I’m also in the camp that I don’t think FF ever intended the poem to be solved using ciphers, as he has stated. It just doesn’t fit his MO.

    • Zos, yeah while that is all well & good, let’s not forget what ff said…
      You have to figure out what the clues mean, unlock them. IMO the clues are not obvious to someone who didn’t learn much in school, I think each clue has a backstory, if we don’t know the story behind em we’ll never be confident.

      Does it bother me that the old man persuaded me to read a gazillion books, not in the least.

      I never would have been able to appreciate an empty road out in the middle of nowhere without reading about South Pass & all those who had passed thru there. Boy how ironic it was, we go there on the very Saturday when 200 or more bicyclists are riding through there on one leg of there pricey excursion. They would do 40 miles a day w/ a full support staff & exotic bikes.

    • Zororock ~ “I’m in the camp that thinks FF wants someone to find the chest.” { of course he wants it found, that’s obvious } But…
      IF I’m reading this correctly, you think fenn wants it found now?
      He has, in so many words, said he is indifferent to when it’s found~ tomorrow, a hundred years from now etc… But I’m always drawn back to this statement;
      “I’m not flippant about this. It’s not something somebody is going to be able to do on spring break or a Sunday afternoon picnic. I’m looking a hundred years down the road, maybe a thousand years down the road. People don’t understand that.”
      And this one as well;
      “Somebody could find it tomorrow and it may not be found for a thousand years. I’m looking at the big picture. A lot of people who are searching for the treasure don’t see it the same way I do. I would love if someone found it tomorrow but if nobody found it for a hundred years, that’s okay with me too.”

      So, I’m always curious why some think fenn wants it found..”now”.. if that is what you meant. This is a serious curiosity for me. When you think about the time he spent planning all this, money invested, not to mention the value of the trove. we’re talking twenty years from start to execution [ hiding and the book release ].
      What does ~”… down the road. people don’t understand that”… and… “…A lot of people who are searching for the treasure don’t see it the same way I do.” ~mean to you in the over all aspect of the chase?
      I’ll add, another reason for the chase was to “influence future generations” as well.

      Just a curious inquiry…

      • “So, I’m always curious why some think fenn wants it found..”now”.. if that is what you meant. ”

        Well, not exactly. I think FF wants it found while he is alive, so he too can enjoy the thrill of another. It is all part of his adventure he has placed upon us to follow.

        Also, if you think about when he stated that he would buy the bracelet back from the “winner”…..that alone tells me that he wants to be alive when the chest is found…..otherwise, he won’t be able to repurchase the bracelet.

        There is some logic in his words, but at other times, it clearly shows it is a fun game he has set up and is watching the outcome from a distance.

        IMO – I think it will be found within the next five years or sooner.

        There have been lots and lots of information being exchanged on this site alone…..so I would imagine with all the information available, someone will have an “Eureka” moment and piece together a solve that will conclude our search.

        I hoe it is me, you hope it is you, and the list goes on…..eventually, and five years is a lot of time, something is going to click, and you will see the majority of the seekers hone in on that one location.

        For my area in MT…..I’ve already noticed that three other people have stated the area I have been searching. Does that mean anything – as to the end of the hunt? It could be.

        Can this place also be the target region, and then we see thousands of people converge on this place? I think we will.

        Once that happens…..all bets are off. It should be found. Logic tells me this.

        ….I am just hoping I am the one who does.

        ;o)

        Cheers!

        • Zoso…you have a great attitude for finding a hidden treasure. You seem to always have a very positive way of thinking and expressing your thoughts. This great challenge that Fenn has bestowed upon us has chewed up and spit out many overly exuberant takers of his challenge. There are a few that have latched onto the search and are in it for the long haul…others have run the gamut and gone skipping off to the loony bin.
          This Chase is like the best NY Times crossword ever published to me. I will work it until it is solved or I move on to the next life. Do I think Fenn wants his life’s work unraveled tomorrow? I believe him when he says he is ambivalent. Do I think he would be disappointed if someone finds Indulgence next week? I believe he would embrace the moment and the lucky searcher would have the opportunity to learn so much more than just solving the Poem. I do not believe Forrest intends to steer any searcher to, or away, with any of his comments. I trust him when he says that he wants the playing field to be even. Everyone has the same chance…
          Lastly…I also do not think that more than just a handful of “searchers” have been close or are getting close. IMO, there are no throngs of searchers zeroing in on the locale…good luck Zoso and keep up the great mojo.

          • Hey Jen…I’m not saying the convergence is happening….but it will once the so I ibation process is finalized.

            Keeping to the positives gasbeen the main reason I’ve succeeded in so many things in my life….good luck plays a major role, but I have to admit, my dilligence plays a big part to.

            Afterall, one can not succeed if one does not try to succeed.

            Good luck back at you!! And thanks for the kind words. I do hope I’ve given you an insight into this search that others may not have thought of.

            Be positives and great things can happen.

      • Zosorocks1: “IMO – I think it will be found within the next five years or sooner.”

        I would agree — especially the “or sooner” part. I think this will all be over in less than a year.

  41. First cold morning here in CA, 60 degrees above the covers. But coffee’s hot, danish is in the oven and I’m ready to read a long debate on
    minutia ….. silence…. what happened…. are you all out Christmas shopping?

  42. Ok, so I’ll start one… “if it weren’t for my name, I’d have nothing at all.”

    A tributary flows into a river and at the confluence it loses its name. Where and how the waters actually blend, well… “Only the grass knows” … or if it is shallow enough, maybe an observant barefoot boy. Flowing waters hint (teach) the rich lessons of Jefferson’s “Laws of Nature and Nature’s God”… physics, geography, biology, self. Indeed, lids were shut, but eyes were open. And a brown stain shouted: I am here, know me.

    IMO, “I” in stanza one is a dual confluence: where a tributary lost its name (identity), and a boy discovered his.

    • OS2;

      I agree that wwwh = where a stream/creek/rill loses its name when it converges with a larger body of water.

      ….where a boy discovered his??? not so sure.

      Just a thought…JDA

      • Don’t read more into it than necessary… at 13 he gained the confidence to show off… as we all do when we start our own personal “Corps of Discovery Expedition”. In literature its often marked by some ‘coming of age’ event… usually discovering daddy is not infallible, or heres are fakes. Religions celebrate it with rituals of confirmation or bar mitzvahs or killing some animal in the woods. In modern secular society, I think it may be the driving permit. Anyhow, it looms big in our psyche, and waxes nostalgia in old age. What is important to the hunt is … is a specific water confluence I think the “I” in stanza one refers to. It is this “I” that tears me away from New Mexico.

  43. I do not see wwwh as being a body of water of any kind. Where in the poem does it lead anybody to believe it is so? Are we following our hearts instead of our brain. We are not following the instructions given to us. We are so stubborn in the way we think that we ignore the poem and what it is conveying to us.

    We think we are following it precisely but I do not think we are. Mr. Fenn has told us to find out where warm waters halt but is that the first clue? To me the answer is straightforward, and it is no. If you think it is the first clue are you not breaking the first rule of what contiguous, and continuous means? If someone can answer the first clues and they find the answer within the poem then and only then they must be right. This is something we just do not understand. The poem stands alone and only needs itself. Nothing else is needed so why are we multiplying our possibilities by looking at hints,our own opinions or somebody else’s, maps, and everything else out there.

    We should be focusing on the poem until we decipher what it is saying. This task is worth a fortune so why are we ignoring it? This of course is my opinion.RC.

    • “I do not see wwwh as being a body of water of any kind. Where in the poem does it lead anybody to believe it is so?”

      It could where it says “water”.

      (sorry, couldn’t resist)

      🙂

      • I should add that I don’t have an issue with what you’re saying, RC. I just thought it weird that you were wondering why people think it has something to do with water, when the word water is, like, right there. Nothing wrong with being weird, though, in my opinion.

    • RC;

      I agree, wwwh is NOT the first clue. Clue #1 (in my opinion) is all of stanza #1

      As Jeremy P pointed out – the answer to your first line – “I do not see wwwh as being a body of water of any kind. Where in the poem does it lead anybody to believe it is so?” wwwh = “where warm WATERS halt”.

      Just an observation – JDA

      • JDA

        I’m totally in your camp on your ‘Stanza1 being vital’ statement, and will try to explain why, in a brief moment of seriousness, in the least ‘fuzzy-logic-way’ possible, to me.

        – if ‘wwwh’ must be nailed down from the start, then it seems logical (to me) that understanding where wwh should necessitate at least one previous clue/hint, but possibly more than one, within Stanza1.

        – if the clues (apparently) get consecutively easier, then wwwh is suggested as being the most differcult to solve of all 9, therefore the most likely to necessitate at least one hint/clue (or both) within Stanza1.

        – also, what better way to hide clue(s) in such plain sight, than to hide the most vital hints within the stanza that (seemingly) possesses the least relevance, at first glance.

        RC

        I’m certainly a great supporter in the diversity of colours that ‘freedom of opinion’ presents to us earthlings (esp. in some of the colourful replies 🙂 )
        ..but to suggest that ‘wwwh has nothing to do with water’ is sorta like suggesting that Einstein wasn’t even very clever.

        more input on this subject please RC (?)

    • RC: “We are so stubborn in the way we think that we ignore the poem and what it is conveying to us.”

      So tell us, what it is conveying to us that we are missing.
      We are getting tired of you.

        • RC,
          You didn’t answer the valid question.
          So tell us, what is it conveying to us that we are missing or ignoring.

          You will be taking a long nap here if you continue to put everyone down & not tell us why or even elaborate why we are all ignoring the way we look & read the poem while implying you know why.

        • RC;

          You are something else my friend. Four of us call you out for your pompous use of the English language, and all you can say is, “Go take a nap Jake.” If four people had called me out for my bad behavior on a Blog, I assure you I would be taking a very close look at what I had said, and not just blowing it (and us) off.

          JDA

      • I am not attacking anybody, and I do apologize if it sounds like I am but I do not see the way some bloggers in this blog see things, and that’s okay to disagree. I do not seek to be politically correct for if I were I would not be me. I believe what I believe and I will not apologize for that. I do not know why some people take these opinions so personal but I rather debate the poem if someone is up to it, but only the poem and nothing else. So don’t just ask questions about it . Where does it say in the poem that where warm waters halt is a body of water of some kind? After all it’s not what we think it is but what it is. Too bad Fenn can not comment about it for it would be interesting what he would say about WWWH. RC.

        • RC- “I rather debate the poem… but only the poem…”

          If you have anything to add beside these fortune cookie post… I’ll take you challenge of a debate.

          • RC,
            If you’re done playing with JD, I’m still willing to take a stab at what you have to offer…

            Poem and only poem. Follow the poem. Let the poem tell you… Right?

            Ok what you stated below seems to imply that the clues read up to stanza four have been followed, right?
            The answers we seek to find the trove will be look quickly down in the poem, right?

            Let’s pick it up from there… If you really want a good debate and not all the chest puffing.

        • Part of your problem is RC,
          You should be giving reasons why you think “we” are all wrong.
          The fact is you don’t know.
          Many of us may have many clues solved & “we” will never know either way until someone finds the chest.

          I think it would be wise of you to at least elaborate why “we” got it all wrong.

          I am sure some have gotten some of it right.
          Let’s try & be constructive instead of destructive.

        • OK RC, let’s have a reasonable, logical discussion about where in the poem it says that where warm waters halt is a body of water of some kind?

          “Begin it where warm waters halt and take it in the canyon down, Not far but too far to walk.” Let’s take the word water out of the sentence and substitute whatever word you like…Begin it where warm spaghetti halts…etc.” Rather silly isn’t it? The word water is in the sentence because Forrest is telling us IN THE POEM that “water” is the subject of that sentence.

          Later, “There’ll be no paddle up your creek…Another reference to water. Still later, “Just heave loads and WATER high…” another reference to water.

          “If you’ve been wise and found the blaze…” Some feel that the blaze is a WATERfall.

          “Your effort will be worth the cold…” many believe that this too is a reference to WATER. The entire poem appears to be constructed around a theme of WATER. So where in the poem does it say that wwwh is related to a body of WATER – almost every stanza has at least one reference to water.

          The poem was written by a man who loves the Rockies, a man who loves to fish. Most of the stories in TTOTC and TFTW relate in one way or another to WATER.

          My personal opinion is that your denial of what is at the core of the poem is ill founded. So Show me where I am wrong in my assertion that WATER IS at the heart of the poem. How do you read it differently. How am I NOT reading it correctly.

          Give me details my friend. You want a discussion, well, I have played my hand, what my kind sir is your intelligent response…not some BS about how only you know how to read the poem correctly. If, in fact you are the only one who knows how to read it correctly, please set me straight. I am a good learner.

          JDA

          • Okay JDA. Let’s stick to the poem only and not to your opinions,or mine. In order to follow the poem precisely one has to know where to start in the poem. The beginning of the poem. The first stanza. A searcher has to follow the 9 clues precisely right? RC.

          • RC;

            I hate writing in four word sentences, so I am going to cut and paste your last post, and go to the end of this thread and continue our dialog. OK JDA

          • JDA The first stanza does not convey anything. It just says that he went in there ,somewhere, by himself and that’s why he can keep the secret. Right? Then we go to the second sentence. We are following the poem precisely until this point right? So we just read what it says and nothing else. Still that sentence does not convey anything valuable. So we go to the third sentence. And we follow what it is saying, and we put in below the home of Brown. We keep on reading. We are still following the poem exactly right? RC.

          • Hey JDA and Jake,
            RC, it’s OK to have your opinion about somethings but if it is in conflict with others then both sides are correct until one of them come out and show us the TC.
            The only other that I will say is the first stanza is important. To speak about any portion of the poem as something not conveying anything is a statement that shows me that you really haven’t taken enough time to find out about FF. This man’s intellect is so far above others that there should never be any question about something conveying information. 9 Clues, 9 sentences.
            What you said is like saying that Jenny from mysterywritings is just entertaining us, no real info, RIGHT???

    • I think I represent most if not all of us, RC, when I say, “Speak for yourself.” These continuing scoldings implying that we are all a bunch of dufuses really is getting old.

    • RC;

      The line in your post that has everyone upset – including me – is: “We are not following the instructions given to us. We are so stubborn in the way we think that we ignore the poem and what it is conveying to us.”

      “Speak for yourself. “I” am following the instructions, as are almost every searcher. How can you look inside “our” heads and tell what we are thinking? Answer – YOU can’t, so please quit implying that you can. We are all big boys and girls, we each can speak for ourselves – we do NOT need you to speak for us, especially when you do NOT know what our thoughts are. Just some friendly advice or a friendly suggestion.

      JDA

    • Rc- “the poem… nothing else is needed. So why are we multiplying our possibilities by looking for hints, our own opinions or someone else’s, maps, and everything else out there.”

      Well let’s review… Fenn stated there are hints.
      Fenn stated a map is a good reference/useful.
      As for why blogger’s discuss ideas, thoughts and give opinions… That’s because Dal put up this site and opened it for that purpose. Maybe you should ask Dal to take down the site, seeing WE don’t need it…

      Personally, I enjoy chatting about possibilities… So my question to you is…. Why are you here?

    • RC, I don’t know if you are responding to my comments above, but if you are … I did not say the wwwh is water. I said I believe the “i” in stanza one is water.

  44. I am Thankful that I know that every comment I do not agree with has to be responded to…Some folks say the same things over and over with different words and that’s ok with me.
    In fact I was just reading some old posts from back in July where 2 certain somebodies were stating that they believed the chest was hidden in the water and were soon to prove it was fact…alas, that did not happen and everyone has moved on from there.
    Have a nice Thanksgiving everyone…and I hope that each person here has more than their fair share to be thankful for.

  45. We tend to forget that the POEM is in the BOOK. One must read the book to discover the poem. The keyword here is “discover”, to unravel,to open,to uncover or go nude if you will. 🙂
    Didn’t he once say he had to take notes,to keep a record so he could remember where he hid the chest if he got dementia. The Thrill of the Chase is just that,his memoir.
    When I take note’s I have them all over the place where I can’t find them.Maybe if I had them in a memoir I could find it with ease.
    In my opinion the map is scattered all over the book. He has blazed the trail and its up to us to find it. “If you have ‘found’ the blaze”. 🙂
    Light a fire,warm your feet. Soon it will be Spring again and we can all go out to play. 🙂 Happy trails.

  46. RC;

    What you just posted is known as “deflection”. If a debater does not want to answer a question, he “deflects” the conversation to a new subject. You “Tried” to deflect it to stanza #1. I already answered that. All of stanza #1 is clue #1.

    Now back to the topic of discussion, “I do not see wwwh as being a body of water of any kind. Where in the poem does it lead anybody to believe it is so?”

    This was the first line of your original post. At length I answered where in t he poem I believe that Forrest told us “In fact” that by saying, “Begin it where warm WATERS halt…” he was referring to h2o. Inserting any other word for water deems the entire sentence silly, and without logic.

    I then asked you to show me where I was wrong in my assertion that WATER is at the core of the entire poem. Please, will you answer my questions, or logically point out where my line of thinking in is conflict with the way that you read the poem. JDA

  47. There is no deflection JDA. That is my point. Nobody can decipher the clues in the poem if they do not follow it precisely. Why do you think the clues get exponentially easier once you find the first clues? Because the searcher will know what the clues are without guessing. The poem ,JDA is not what most people think it is, but one has to follow it exactly before you know. Does that make sense? I am not playing any games JDA, but if you think the way you think there is nothing anyone can do to change it but you. As I have said before the poem is so precise that once the truth comes out you will laugh out loud and will not believe what it was conveying. R.C.

    • I scrolled up, and again you deflect from the topic of discussion…That nowhere in the poem does it tell anybody that wwwh relates to a body of water.

      You posted instead, “JDA The first stanza does not convey anything.”

      That is an opinion offered by you with no facts to substantiate your assertion. Where are your facts?

      “It just says that he went in there ,somewhere, by himself and that’s why he can keep the secret. Right? ”

      That is what the words imply to many. The question is “Where” did he go alone into? Do you have an answer? I do. ..three answers in fact. One needs, as you say, to step through the poem precisely before that answer is divulged, but it IS in the poem. Have you figured it out? I have. Or at least IMO, I have.

      “Then we go to the second sentence. We are following the poem precisely until this point right?”

      “So we just read what it says and nothing else.”

      This is where, in my opinion you are wrong. Just reading the words will accomplish nothing. The words are, “Begin it where warn WATERS halt and take it in the canyon down, Not far, but too far to walk.” Now we are back to the topic of discussion, which you so flippantly are trying to gloss over. If one fails to find the correct wwwh, all of the rest of the poem is mearly a reading exercise. The POEM does tell you EXACTLY which stream or creek is the correct wwwh…but you profess to say that it is not water at all. Please be so kind as to tell us how, when Forrest uses the word WATER, that he means something entirely different – such as spaghetti?

      “Still that sentence does not convey anything valuable.”

      Does not convey anything valuable? It is only the key to starting to solve the poems riddles – that is all. Why else would Forrest say “Begin it,,,” Just as the beginning of a novel has to start at chapter #1, so too must your quest for the treasure, your quest for the answer to the poem, must begin at the correct spot. Wrong spot = wrong outcome, so sorry, I most emphatically must disagree that there is nothing of value here. Please enlighten me, and the rest of the assembled masses.

      “So we go to the third sentence.”

      The third sentence is “Put in below the home of Brown.”

      “And we follow what it is saying, and we put in below the home of Brown. ”

      We do IF we discern what “Home of Brown” is. I am quite positive that I know what it is. Have you figured it out? I personally doubt it. I will not share what it is, but if you want to email me at SculptorJDA at aol.com, I will discuss it in private.

      “We keep on reading. We are still following the poem exactly right? ”

      Telling me to keep on reading is NOT a discussion. I have stated what I feel the importance is to the first two stanzas. All you have said is keep on reading. Are we going to have a discussion or are you intent on expounding nothing but generalities?

      If you want to have a discussion, show me where I am wrong, by convincing me of you have a better understanding of the poem than do I. All you have said is that two of the most important sentences in the poem have no value. Why do they have no value? Just saying so, does not make it so. Give me facts to back up your assertions.

      You may be able to BS some people, but you can not BS one of the greatest BSers there is…and that is me.

      If you want a discussion, state FACTS not YOUR opinions, backed up with absolutely NOTHING!

      JDA

  48. Well, it would appear that Mr. RC has chosen to not engage me in an intellectual conversation. How sad. I was so looking forward to a bit of repartee and banter with someone who obviously knows so much more about the poem than we Plebians. JDA

    • You are wrong JDA. Let us keep on going. So we are on third stanza. So we keep on reading the whole stanza. We are doing what it is saying right? We have followed the clues precisely until now. So we keep on reading and we have been wise up until now. We keep on reading and find the blaze right? What now? Have we followed the clues precisely? Yes, we have. But what now? what do we do? I am asking you JDA. What do we do? RC.

      • I scrolled up and found your previous post and responded. We are NOT on stanza #3 until you rebut my comments to stanza’s #1 and #2. So far, you have said NOTHING factual – just your opinion, and you do not even have the decency to say it is your opinion. You try to pretend it is fact. SORRY!

        Reply to my comments. DISCUSS the options in an intelligent manner, or say good night.

        JDA

    • Hey there JD. oh, A. I just want to make something clear, There is absolutely NOTHING common about this old man…LOLLOL
      Timothy….IMHO

  49. I guess that’s it JDA? I thought we were doing so good. To think that clues stand on their own is an aberration. My opinion and opinion only.RC.

    • Hey RC, sorry to jump in here but can you share a quick/simple explanation of ‘why’ you see no references to bodies of water? work your idea…

    • See my post above. Respond to what I had to say regarding Stanza’s #1 and #2, or say good night. JDA

    • I don’t know what you have been reading…certainly not any of MY posts, I have NEVER said that clues stand on their own. YOU are the one that contends that they have no value. Quit trying to BS us RC, you don’t have the moxy for it. JDA

    • Hiya RC,
      After reading all the hoopla resulting from your original statements from yesterday, I just wanted you to know you are not alone in your opinion on WWWH not pertaining to water. The references to water in ff’s poem I see as a veil through which few can see; mere smokescreens to conceal the manner and method he employed to hide information within the poem. Creating a situation for searchers to chase natural features across the landscape is the perfect ruse to concentrate focus in a false direction.

      f’s method of doing so is very unique and well executed. It isn’t possible to delineate this method without directly giving away the search location. That is how precise his method is. The first two clues reveal this location by name.

      It is there, in the poem, if you can find how and where to start. I am sure of this since f once answered a Q&A on Jenny’s site by saying there are no intentional red herrings in the poem. That means the info I see is there for a purpose and is not accidental.

      Did f not say long ago to “thread a tract through nature and circumstance”? The poem is written in those terms, ‘nature’ and ‘circumstance’. Learning how to ‘thread a tract’ through the poem is the trick and it does begin WWWH. There is an answer BTW which has nothing to do with water. That answer itself is an aberration.

      The reason I responded in this manner is to tell you to keep working it, you’re on the right path, the road less taken so to speak. IMO, of course, on all the above.

      If you wish to know the answer to WWWH, I will divulge it to you privately but not publicly…decide for yourself.

      saemlesls@msn.com

      • Hey Samsmith,
        What you have said is a mouthful. Some is correct and some is not. I would be interested if your wwwh matches mine as my solve is complete and I’m just waiting for spring (my wife hates cold).
        If interested I am at tim.alkire82@gmail.com
        Thank you for your impute,
        Timothy…

      • RC and SamSmith –

        You don’t get it. You are not participating. Since you prefer it your way which is the long way go ahead. Wait till spring go to the area that only you are smart enough to know about. Don’t find TC. Do see the marks or jars or chest that previous searchers have left for you. Then cone back here and tell us the spot. Then I will refer you to the blog where we discussed it years ago. Just like the guy that discovered the gold mine snd just like the day 5 searchers were rubbing the walls behind the third waterfall in Cimarron.

  50. JDA,
    Could I be the ‘devil’s advocate’ there for RC just for a sec and tell me why this will not make sense, just for fun or whatnot…

    Stanza 1 holds a clue that will make us understand (instructions) what we need to do next and the ‘As I have gone alone-with treasures-keeping secrets-hinting of riches…’ does not refer to ff but someone-something else.

    Stanzas 2 and 3 are heavy in water, yes, but let’s say when the poem says ‘BEGIN IT’ is not telling us to begin the journey through rivers and canyons just yet, but to begin constructing something, maybe draw a picture. Or maybe is describing a geographical-ecological event important to the area (ie…volcano eruption) or even some event important to ff (birth/death of someone), who knows?, and it all depends on individual understanding and research. There are multiple clues there that will get us closer to the chest, but not one location after the next; they are all describing where to begin it.

    Then maybe we can call that understanding our blaze and begin the journey on Stanza 4, perhaps 5.

    Stanzas 4, 5 and 6, not much water there and yes ‘cold’ could be but it can also be many other things.

    When he described the ‘spot’ on that video he did say ‘I can see water’ but whatever that body of water is, is it one of the clues?

    Feel free to shoot it down…

    • In the starting stanza, “I” is not identified…. “I” does not have a name…. thats why JUMP STARTING THE LEARNING CURVE became so interesting…. it talks about ‘start’ and ‘name’.

    • Oz10, When you say Forrest described the ‘spot’ on that video he said, “I can see water”… That’s not what I hear. If you’re referring to the NM tourism video, Forrest doesn’t say ‘he sees water’… He says, “If I was standing where the treasure chest is… I’d see trees… I’d see mountains… I’d see animals… I’d smell wonderful smells of pine needles or pinyon nuts… Sagebrush… And I know the treasure chest is wet.”
      I’ll admit the video DOES SHOW a visual of a stream twice during him making this statement, but Forrest does NOT say, “he would see water.”
      Sorry. I don’t mean to be overly critical, but that’s what I hear and see. Maybe you’re referring to another video?

    • OZ10;

      Sounds good to me. That is one of the wondrous things about the poem, It can be read in so many different ways.

      Speaking of which – In a few days Dal will publish a very unique interpretation of the poem that has absolutely nothing to do with the search for indulgence. It is something that my subconcious worked on, with no real input from me. I woke up, and it was there. WEIRD! Hope you and others enjoy it. JDA

      • Sounds interesting. is it normal to start having nightmares about the chase? I had one too the other night. 🙂

    • Although I said that it all sounds good to me – that was not the entire truth. I am in the camp that sees each sentence – each clue as a stepping stone on a map that starts at wwwh and ends “in the wood”.
      Many see stanzas #5 and #6 as being “fluff”. I do not.
      Many people feel that the search ends at the blaze…I do not. I have found MANY clues in the eleven lines after the blaze is found. Using the word “clues” is misleading I guess. For me, the blaze is found in Clue #5, but there is much “information” in the remaining 11 lines, that include clues6,7,8 and9.

      Step-by-step. One word after the other, one line after the other, one sentence after the other, one clue after the other, until you are given title to the gold.

      What a journey – what a THRILL! JDA

  51. I happen to believe the poem may be a poem within a poem so to speak. Could it have more than one meaning? For instance, “where warm waters halt” could refer to the Indian “trail of tears”. Yes, tears are water, but entirely different from the “water” we are discussing.

    Or “where but warm waters halt” could refer to childhood— we stop crying when we grow up (coincidentally this is around 12 or 13 years old, which Forrest refers to quite a bit).

    So, it is very possible that the poem has little to do with rivers or creeks when looked at in one way—- but may have a second meaning which clearly speaks of water.

    I remain convinced that two stories are being told. One reveals a rainbow, while the second reveals where a treasure is hidden.

    Of course IMO.

  52. I don’t really have a dog in this hunt, but if a searcher believes water plays no part in the Chase, the burden of proof is on them to show how or why this is the case, given all the watery references in the poem. A “normal” reading of the poem certainly eludes to water. Now, that said, where water halts could certainly be something that is non-water. Dams are an example, but have already been excluded by Fenn. But a lake “ends” at its perimeter, so in this case water halts at land. Also, what Fenn means by “warm waters” could be rather broad, encompassing both land and water. But nothing about this poem suggests, for instance, a desert devoid of water, and anyone who knows anything about Forrest would be looking for water to be relatively near where the chest lies.

    • Like zaphod, I have no axe to grind here, but I certainly think it would be useful if RC could explain what he means a little more lucidly, and with reference to illustrative examples of some sort (I’m not asking for his actual solution – my own is enough to contend with right now!).

      Water plays a huge part in my chase, including rivers, creeks and fens, but I’ve come to the conclusion that it’s very easy to be misled into thinking that the poem says something, when in fact it’s the searcher’s assumption that’s too often at play. I’ve gone down that rabbit hole on a number of occasions, and so, now, I’m very wary, and try not to second guess what the poem says.

      FWIW, I do believe that the first stanza (as well as the fifth and sixth) is critical to solving the poem correctly, and that WWWH is very much connected to flowing water (paradoxically). I also believe, and have stated on a number of occasions, that there are ways of checking to see if you have the correct place for WWWH, because without that confirmation it’s a real crapshoot. So, for me, water is an absolutely essential ingredient, and is confirmed by the methods FF has built into the poem.

      That said, there are places in the poem where rigid adherence to the water theme will likely lead a searcher astray. IMO, it’s essential to look at all potential readings of “There’ll be no paddle,” and “Look quickly down,” etc. And it’s no secret that I believe there’s way more in the poem than is suggested by the words themselves. I know that many believe there’s a simple solution, but IMO, there’s a lot more behind FF’s insistent imperative, “don’t mess with my poem” than would be necessary if the words are only to be read at face value. For example, what harm could be done if I removed the word “And” from the beginning of the second line or substitute “all ready” for “already” in stanza 5? If you believe that the straightforward interpretation is correct, then the answer should be, very little harm. On the other hand, for someone in my shoes, that would be a definite no-no!

      It sounds like it’s going to be a long, hard winter here on HoD! 😉

  53. All,
    After reading recent comments, I am reminded of what F said:
    “Until someone finds the treasure they will not know for sure that they have discovered the first clue.”
    All searchers have to do to demonstrate that they have discovered the first clue (see, I stayed on topic) is to find TC. Simple…and fun, too!
    Safe searching, everyone!
    Geoff
    “Have flashlight, will travel”

    • By the way, the kids and I have decided that I need to go and shoot some more photos, trying to confirm that next clue, and it looks like the weather will be okay tomorrow. (Geoff Idaho is on Instagram, if anyone is interested.)
      Safe searching, everyone!
      Geoff
      “Have flashlight, will travel”

  54. My WWWH is are Time and Chaos. (Frank Waters last book) It’s also my title to the gold. My alpha and Omega. And I fondly refer to it as my TC for short. The rest is uphill in the middle. There. I said it.

    • …and yes Frank also means warm/open….and no, it certainly wasn’t published by Scribner. Lol.

        • @Jonsey1. RE: Frank Waters…can you imagine what Taos was like “back in the days”? Waters was friends with Gaspard, Nicolai Fetchin illustrated at least one book authored by him… “The Colorado”. I found it in a used book store…by luck and chance. It is outstanding – the writing and the illustrations both. My favorite work by Waters is “Book of the Hopi”. It’s like a bible to my part of the world. I haven’t read “Time and Change”. Perhaps it is “time” to. Gotta love the Memoir.

          • I can’t…but I love to try. I’ll have to check out Colorado…it’s the only one I haven’t read yet. I got distracted after Otawi and ended up on some L. L’Amour tangent before finishing the waters books. Thanks for the recommendation. Looking forward to reading it. 🙂

    • Jonesy1

      there are 4 simple rules to recognising whether one suffers from insanity..

      #1) asking yourself questions (out-loud)
      #2) answering your own previously asked questions (out-loud)
      #3) evidence of hair, growing within the palms of your hands
      #4) quietly checking your palms.

      ..did I get ya Jonsey? ..did you (quietly) check your palms??

      ya did, didn’t ya ( …be honest)
      🙂

      • Check it?
        Why would I need to check it?
        I just combed it this morning before trimming it…at least I think I did…
        Hang on.
        Yup.
        Still there.

        I do sense a keyword in your post though, little man…”suffers”.
        That, I do not…thus rendering me free from any and all potential DSM classifications.

      • yes, it’s just as I suspected – denial is part of the process though, Jonsey@1.

        ..but don’t worry, there’s a recently vacant cell right next to mine, which is really really comfortable ..even on the walls. (it really is a very special place here)

        we could be ‘roomies’ ..I bet ya can’t wait, right?!
        – me too! 🙂

  55. Curious Hobbit—-

    Another definite sign of insanity is seeing a sentence and then believing you saw it twice. Another definite sign of insanity is seeing a sentence and then believing you saw it twice.

    • Spilly Farty Barrow —

      “Roses are red, violets are blue,
      I’m a schizophrenic,
      and so am I”

      – Oscar Levant

      ( ..it’s highly likely that you’re actually related to (both of) him, at a guess – just saying.. )
      🙂

  56. Curious about something…. does anyone remember Forrest saying “someone walked past the othe seven clues” or “went past?”
    I can’t remember for the life of me.
    Thanks and happy holidays!
    Friend

      • She is either with one other person or a multiple of people in their party. I can’t help but wonder if Diggin gypsy is the party to whom he speaks. If it is, perhaps they ought to go back to the area they searched before this interview of November 2, 2013. For that matter, anyone who searched before this date that had a woman in their party. Seems to make sense to me.

        • Didn’t he also say the closest person to the chest was a man. The man may have had a woman partner.

          IMO the people who solved two clues correctly are not the same people who were close to the chest. I believe the people close to the chest had no clues correct and were just in the right area sightseeing after their search failed. Of course only Fenn knows the truth, but its my opinion and I am sticking to it.

          Notice how Fenn says a woman was within 200 feet in the video, but when discussing who was closest it was a man. That doesn’t make sense, but it is what he said. I don’t remember which video talks about the man.

          • Thought you were on a search for the treasure today Wy?

            Does it really matter who was closer to the treasure?
            It doesn’t help at all.

            The only thing that matters is when someone returns the bracelet.

            Crow pie & stuffing tastes great this time of year.

          • Jake, you must eat a lot of that crow pie.

            When did I say I was going for the chest? I said I am heading out, but not to where or what for.

            Gotta watch out and be more observant, or that pie will be all you have 😉

          • Wy,
            I have only sampled it a few times & know enough it doesn’t taste good.
            You did say: “Ok guys, I am heading out, BOTG baby”
            BOTG usually means boots on the ground searching for the treasure.

            I was hoping you were not that stupid to go out & search this time of year.
            Glad you were not that stupid but yet…..

    • IMO, the question has always been – went right by them on the ground, or went right by them in the poem?

      • “There have been some who have been within 500 feet because they have told me where they have been. Others have figured the first two clues and went right past the treasure and didn’t know it.”

        the 2nd sentence to me always read that “they went right by them in the poem.”

        • “. . .there are several people that have deciphered the first two clues; I don’t think they knew it, because they walked right on past the treasure chest” in that 2 Nov 2013 interview pdenver posted above.

          The one I was thinking of goes ““Some folks correctly mentioned the first two clues to me in an email and then they went right past the other seven, not knowing that they had been so close”.

          K

    • Possible, depending on how Mr. Fenn’s statement should be interpreted. He would have been closest, since he was the one that placed the chest in it’s hiding spot. Or, it could be a man and woman were both within 200 feet of the treasure chest, yet the man stood closest. At least two different search parties, each being closest. Makes one think.

  57. The following is what I believe to be true. The poem, or the 9 clues is all I need to get to the chest. There is only one correct way to interpret the clues and that is through common sense which is not, the correct definition of the words and not mine, a little of simple imagination, and to follow the clues exactly as they are and not as I think they should be followed. What I think the clues are or are not do not matter ,for if I follow them precisely, the clues let themselves be known. This is not a guessing game as some may think,and if the searcher deciphers for sure the second clue, she or he will have solved the most important clues, and at the end of their solution they will have to go back to the first clue again, and get the treasure. All this is my simple opinion,and is mine and mine alone. I almost forgot even though WWWH is to be deciphered it is not ,in my opinion, the most important clue.

    • Thank you RC for a clear, non-boastful, non-condescending post.

      You say, “if the searcher deciphers for sure the second clue, she or he will have solved the most important clues, ”

      You then say, “even though WWWH is to be deciphered it is not ,in my opinion, the most important clue.”

      Are we to imply from these two statements that you do not feel that wwwh is the second clue? It looks that way to me. In the past, you have “kinda” indicated that you followed the “One sentence = 1 clue” approach. Have you changed, or was I wrong that you seemed to follow the “One sentence = 1 clue” approach? JDA

    • Seriously RC, where/what is your opinion?

      RC ~ “The poem, or the 9 clues is all I need to get to the chest.”
      FF ~ “…All of the information you need to find the treasure is in the poem.”

      RC ~ “There is only one correct way to interpret the clues and that is through common sense which is not, the correct definition of the words and not mine, a little of simple imagination, and to follow the clues exactly as they are and not as I think they should be followed.”
      FF ~ “The clues should be followed in order Curtis. There is no other way to my knowlege.f ”
      “…I looked up words and definitions and changed them, went back and rebooted”
      RC ~ “What I think the clues are or are not do not matter ,for if I follow them precisely, the clues let themselves be known.”
      FF ~ ““ So I wrote a poem containing 9 clues that is followed precisely, will lead to the end of my rainbow and the treasure:”
      RC ~ “This is not a guessing game as some may think,and if the searcher deciphers for sure the second clue, she or he will have solved the most important clues, and at the end of their solution they will have to go back to the first clue again, and get the treasure.”
      FF ~ “…many people have found the first clue but they didn’t know it. Until someone finds the treasure they will not know for sure that they have discovered the first clue.”
      “…it’s not a matter of trying, it’s a matter of thinking… I mean people figured the first couple clues and unfortunately walked past the treasure chest.”

    • I thought the 9th clue is the most important? What have I missed, man, step away for a little while and everything changes. Do I owe any grape sodas?…

  58. Sorry my smart phone decided to stop working. As I was writing, WWWH is just an assertion of being in the right path, and not the beginning of the clues and if the person thinks otherwise she or, he is already headed in the wrong direction. This is my opinion and opinion only. RC.

  59. @JDA No, I have not changed my mind about anything. The second clue starts with Begin it , and that’s the second clue, and it is important but second to the first stanza. The order of importance is as they appear in the poem,hence one must not exclude the first clue because without it the second clue does not stand on its own. If someone correctly deciphers the first clue they will find the treasure, but the only way to do that is to get the treasure, to have in your hands, for the poem can only get you there but you have to do the “dirty work”. This is my opinion.RC.

    • RC, you said: “If someone correctly deciphers the first clue they will find the treasure”

      There have been people who have deciphered the 1st clue according to Forrest but they have not found the treasure.

      Please explain…..

    • RC you say,” If someone correctly deciphers the first clue they will find the treasure.”

      How do you then explain the following statement by Forrest?

      ♦ “Some folks correctly mentioned the first two clues to me in an email and then they went right past the other seven, not knowing that they had been so close”.

      Your statement and Forrest’s seem to be in direct conflict. How do you explain this? Just askin’ JDA

      • Hi JDA/All: chiming in from New Zealand (though hundreds of miles southwest of our Curious Hobbit). I suspect RC will reply with the explanation he’s used in the past: that mentioning or recognizing the first two clues is not necessarily the same as solving or deciphering them. I don’t believe Forrest is being quite that cagey. I think he’s being truthful that the first two clues (and possibly more) have been solved as intended.

      • Zapster

        I’m assuming you’re in my South Island, and sincerely hope that you’re enjoying the rugged natural beauty and the flora and fauna that generously plasters the landscape down them thar ways
        (I decorated it myself actually – do you like all those tree thingys that I planted?)

        enjoy
        🙂

        • Having a fabulous time, Mr. Frodo! It’s a good thing you’ve been busy planting trees here: sure looks like they like to cut ’em down, though I can’t quite figure out what they do with the wood since I don’t see any houses! Maybe it’s for all those nice wooden walkways the Kiwis like to provide for tourists to traverse anything wider than a puddle. Very thoughtful! I have seen, oh, 2700 or so dead possums on the roads during our 2700 km of driving. They’re a lot cuter than their American counterpart, but I gather the Kiwis hate ’em as much as the native birds do.

        • Zap-ness-ster

          that is fantabulous, that you are having an absolutely flabulous time, on my home-world of (‘slightly a bit warmer than the Antarctic’) NZ-land-ness.

          yes, I agree that those paths less travelled, possess more natural spontaneity in/of the most awesome adventure-ous-ness, ever, in itself.

          & yes, those hiking platforms are entirely designated to prevent ‘Kauri die-back’, that cross-contaminates a fatal disease to/from the roots of our most ancient, beloved and largest indigenous trees ..whilst also providing easy-access for the least physically capable of us most-deserving humanoid-humanbrids, in order to have an honest taste, sense & smell, of Her naturally presented majestic-est bits, bobs, and so-such stuff.

          ..but you’re entirely clever, so I don’t need to remind you of that fact thrice again, I’m twice sure.

          ..& no (‘officially’ at least) ..I certainly (don’t) highly recommend rally-driving across our many (too temptingly) winding gravelled roads (esp in a rental car – that you (haven’t) hired) ..given that you’re (just quietly) a (non) rascal, too.. just like (not) me 🙂

          ..a Mini Cooper 850 is certainly (not) the most fun way to (not) accomplish such (said) misdeeds (above) too, btw, just for the (unofficial) record.
          ( ..I blame Burt Munro entirely – if only he knew..)

          ..and I (didn’t ever) own a fun Mini Cooper (850) too btw, in my long (but ‘not even slightly reckless’) youth, whilst (not) having lots of ‘non-sideways’ rally moments (ever) on so many (non) winding rural gravel roads, of endless hours of (not having) fun with great mates & greater music (esp ‘not’ Led Zep or Van Halen ..according to my lawyers!)

          but don’t tell pdenver, she might faint..
          (from shock)
          🙂

    • RC;

      Question #2. If your statement is true, and YOU have correctly deciphered the first one or two clues – WHERE IS THE TREASURE? Please show it to us and get us out of our misery. Please explain – JDA

  60. RC , aren’t you the one that said a few months ago that the treasure wasn’t retrievable and that you were going to try anyway and that we would see you in the news one way or another?
    Did that not work out?
    Defininitly not trying to start a squabble and I could be completely off with names here. Just curious.

    • WY Girl;

      Not sure if RC will answer you, but you are NOT mistaken.
      The past is the past though. Hopefully RC has put on a new hat. His first post says that he has. The next – Not so sure. We shall see. JDA

    • Nope RC, not going there. That would be a waste of time. I would rather spend my time working on a solution not trying to prove something to sumbuddy.
      If you want to put on a new hat like JD thinks you might I might be willing to have a discussion. I do like what you have to say now.

      • Kedars mom, I wondered the same thing for a moment, lol. I swear that RC fella was around here a few months ago going on and on about how the treasure was someplace it couldn’t be retrieved and then he went off in a huff and said he was gonna get it anyway and to be looking for him on the news.
        Of course he’s probably just like the rest of us poor souls and went out sure that he knew where it was and as he came home empty handed had an epiphany about where he went wrong, lol.

        • I think if one is lucky enough to figure out where it waits, they will be left to decide if they are brave enough to retrieve it. It’s going to be a long winter. My thoughts are a thousand miles away. : ) Happy Holidays

  61. ” So I wrote a poem containing nine clues…” We are all pretty familiar with the rest of this quote. This quote, to me, has several meanings. In one translation, it could mean Forrest wrote a poem and in the stanzas of the poem there are nine individual entities you need to figure out. If you do, you can then follow them to the end of the rainbow and the treasure. In this version, the rainbow is metaphorical and the treasure is an all inclusive “Indulgence” you can simply walk up to, take it, and go. Thank you Easter Bunny. Bock bock. Simple structured instructions. I like it. But. Try this one.
    ” So I wrote a poem containing nine clues…” Containing?
    Interesting word. In this other interpretation one could read “a poem containing nine clues” as in a poem preventing or holding back the clues. Why not try that? Same words. Here they are contained in the poem in a contained state. Sort of like a compressed computer file or, on the low tech side, that fake jar of peanuts the spring snakes fly out of. If you don’t extract the file or pop the lid, you really don’t know what it is you have. And now you really want peanuts. So check. To do otherwise imo is crazy. If you follow them precisely and never deviate from the contained state, they will lead you. Somewhere. Eventually. I read somewhere in this thread (I’m paraphrasing)that you circle back to the beginning and start again with a new found understanding and application. I do agree. Many times over.
    If you don’t explore the possibilities you will never gain any ground.

    Anyways. Just a thought.

    • It is a great thought mt.

      What if the poem is recursive? What if we need to pull a clue out of the poem, then go back and execute the poem with that clue until we “break” of of the loop when our “quest will cease”?

      What if the poem is like a program that has the following pseudocode?

      1. Starting clue at stanza 1, take it and call it current_clue
      2. run stanzas 2 through 4 using current_clue until we are wise and found the blaze
      3. execute the remaining code on the final clue
      4. spit out title to the gold

      I like how you think MT.

  62. It is a metaphoric circle in which you wind up back at the beginning, because the warm waters flow from where the treasure lies to where they halt.

    WWH – ask a kid like one from the goonies, think lowest point. Waters from the chaco canyon and all the other washes run down to a coal mine here:
    https://www.google.com/maps/@36.5454123,-108.5262884,3727m/data=!3m1!1e3

    You can trace the wash all the way back up to Chaco Canyon to:

    HoB – Casa Moreno – see this page:
    http://www.otherhand.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/07/Casa-Morena-1907-proclamation.jpg

    As you put in below (down the wash) from HoB you will be walking up the wash seeing the hoodoos and erosion, i.e. the heavy loads and the water high.

    You walk up past the HoB here:
    – google earth coordinates 36.063218, -108.028697

    You would see in the distance some red rock peaks here:
    – google earth coordinates 36° 2’35.20″N 108° 0’51.11″W

    if you draw a line from HoB to these peaks, you will pass the wise Rabbit:
    http://www.bolokids.com/index.php?md=Content&sd=Articles&ArticleID=91
    located here: (if you use historic view from 2014 and have N orientated to the top of your computer in Google Earth it looks more like a rabbit)
    – 36° 3’10.93″N 108° 1’16.68″W

    I think the line wise and found the blaze is actually 2 clues “been wise, AND found the blaze” I believe the blaze is the red mountains.

    You can check the rabbit hole, but I am sure it’s been searched. Why do you ask? if you zoom in closely on the hole for the google earth imagery date (see bottom of google earth next to coordinates) 10/6/2016, you will see people in the rabbit hole.

    First I would start by checking the perimeter around the hole seems to be a log by the hole. Then up to 500′ from the hole most likely in the direction of the blaze or south (look quickly down your quest to cease). Seems like lots of funny rocks and possibly ones stacked on top of one another between here and the blaze.

    If not there I’d check the front side of the blaze, looks like there might have been a cave there and maybe f. stacked rocks up to block it off. Would certainly make you tired and weak. Also looks like a weird purplish flat volcanic rock with a white rock on top at the base. Maybe he dug a hole and put it under there.

    Back to the beginning….

    So as I was saying before, in a way you end up back at the beginning. You started at the end, where the WWH, and finished at the beginning where the warm waters came from.

    So that leaves us with Forrest the Lion jumping to his death in the rabbit hole. At least we will all know where to pay our respects for the provider of such a great “Thrill of the Chase.”

  63. Also just saw on GE, and I am flipping out, but if you follow the line of the wash up toward the right of the blazing mountains, There are two big rocks that look like bubbles with an infinity sign looking mark on it that is what. Looks like it was caused by the wash flowing over it. I am betting it is an old spring vent or something, back to halted warm waters.

    • That was the wizardry of the poem, he made you think the clues had stopped before the end. He hid it so obviously. A kid could find it. There is a giant white line going right to it. The Infinity is the sign of the path we have been on and as human beings we will all always be on. From the earth we come, and back to the earth we go in the same cycle.

        • Yeah that is a problem. It is always best to proceed with a plan rather than following a hunch. (todays weekly words)

          • Then again, if he is confident why not try even if I would not. After all, some people are searching south of Santa Fe, NM. Of course they also been claiming they knew where it was for a year now, and yet they did not go get it. In fact one guy said he had lunch with Forrest last week, and they joked about the chest being south.

            I’m sure FF spends his days waiting for searchers to drop by for Lunch, and then joke with them about the chase 🙂 hehe

            Honestly though, if Frank is confident who I am to discourage him, I just pointed out the map. But we could all be wrong, its hard to tell when FF twists his words.

            I have to admit, I am jealous, I would love to have lunch with Forrest, would love to hear some stories where he doesn’t need to be “PC” 😉

  64. I don’t believe he ever said you had to use that map. I think he stated there was an error on the map when the map came out, everyone assumed Canada. He let them.

    • I don’t have the exact quote, but he said something like if you knew where the chest was, you can see it in the highlighted area of the map. It is pretty well known quote said more than once. In fact when Randy disappeared many said he was out of the search area because it was like right on the border of the highlight in NM.

      Goofy or Dal knows where the quote is, probably here in the important notes.

  65. 35.70012, -107.91815 – this is the google earth for the location of the treasure. if you don’t see it in the double bubble looking things with the hole in it then turn around looks like there is a grotto there as well.

    • wise owl,
      Those cords are not in the search area as Wy stated.
      Nothing special about this desert except for the occasional UFO sighting.
      You can’t even smell pine there.
      Has anyone emailed you yet to search there?

      • So perhaps the blaze is not the last clue. If you stand on top of the blazing mountains and look down the “nigh” side of the v shape there is a small green box of trees.

        36.034031, -107.982016

        Notice this is a U shape brown hill opening to the south around a patch of green. Back at the rabbit hole there is a U shape grove of brush opening to the north that surrounds the hole and bare earth. They are opposites. In the middle of these 2 Us at the blazing mountain bubbles we find the Infinity sign, perhaps representing the crossing point in the figure 8 where the intersections of the two end loops of the figure 8 would be.

        Maybe the final clue is “Brave and in the Wood”, after all you do not have the title to the gold until then.

        Perhaps this grove of trees lies close to the X in New Mexico and thus would be “highlighted” on the map, just not in the way you were lead to believe.

        This grove type area is only 470′ to the far side from a road, and 265′ from the close side. Perhaps at first someone drove by at closer than 500′ and then someone took this “canyon down” and was within 200″.

        • Wise Owl,
          Not sure this name suits you well.
          You can look all around the areas where it’s not highlighted on the map all you like.
          Have lots of fun….

  66. I don’t believe he ever said you had to use that map. I think he stated there was an error on the map when the map came out, everyone assumed Canada. He let them.

    35.70012, -107.91815 – this is the google earth for the location of the treasure.

    • Heheheh – THAT Casa Moreno at THOSE coordinates is the notorious (and nonexistent) Chaco Canyon “Ghost” outlier:

      “explained by archaeologists Robert and Florence Lister in their 1984 book, “Chaco Canyon: Archaeology and Archaeologists”:

      ” . . . It seems that in 1901 when Special Agent Holsinger recommended that certain Chaco ruins be embraced in a proposed federal preserve, he included a site called Casa Morena, described as similar to Kin Ya-a though larger and in more ruinous condition. Holsinger gave a legal description of its location which placed it about eleven miles east of Crownpoint. Congress withdrew the land and included it with those set aside for Chaco Canyon National Monument. However, when the National Park Service found time to pay attention to the sites in the detached areas outside the main canyon and its immediate environs, they could not find Casa Morena, even though New Mexico state maps as late as the 1940s located it a short distance southeast of Pueblo Bonito.

      A review of the circumstances makes it clear that Holsinger had not visited the site but, while in Thoreau awaiting the train for his return to Phoenix, had been told about a ruin whose name he interpreted as Casa Morena. Based on that conversation, he assumed it to be another of the large, isolated Chaco settlements, and in so doing, caused perplexed government officials years of trouble. Since it never has been located, it appears likely that the site is one presently known as Casamero, a medium-sized Chaco-type complex named for a local nineteenth-century Navajo headman. Although not in the exact location given by Holsinger, it is in its general vicinity and fits his description. Casamero, it turns out, is on Bureau of Land Management lands, not within the national monument.”

      K

    • Ironically, the poem and journey are set up almost like links on a chain, it seems to lead you to think you are farther along the path than you are, only for you to realize you are actually a few steps behind where you believed you were.

      i.e. multiple fake ends at the rabbit hole and the figure 8, plus making you think you’re at hoB when you’re actually well before that, going up the creek with the heavy loads and water high.

      I read somewhere Forrest gave the links of a chain length for a distance of 8.25 m north of Santa Fe. You might take it as due north, but I take it as 8.25 miles north of the latitude line that Santa Fe lies on.

      I think I need to overlay the map of the area onto the map provided and see how close this is to the x in New Mexico.

      • Don’t be discouraged Wise.

        One thing to remember, Forrest said that the chest is hidden in MT, WY, CO, or north of Santa Fe, NM in NM. The chest is also only within the highlighted areas of the map (the map in TTOTC).

        What Forrest did NOT say:
        The clues are on that map, the clues are only in NM, CO, WY or MT. He never said anything about the clues! For all we know clue #5 could be in Texas and #6 in Asia. There was never a limit put on the where the clues send you along the way, only the chest.

        The only thing he said about the clues is that they are in the poem. But that does not mean that hints or other clues cannot exist on the ground at some point. For example, what would you do if you were sent to a location at lets say clue 6 and there was a huge sign, carving in a rock, or whatever staring back at you? Would you walk away and say, it cant be a clue because it isn’t written in the poem? Hehe, of course not, and such things were not ruled out at least IMO I never seen it. (note: I am not talking about a scavenger hunt with hidden notes, I do not think it is anything like that)

        Have a beer!

  67. “Forrest Fenn’s treasure is somewhere to be found within the HIGHLIGHTED region of the Rocky Mountains on THIS map”.

    Sounds pretty clear to me.

  68. Suppose it got clipped off the map they made. Could he really say actually the notation on the map is incorrect, the treasure is not highlighted. Would that not then give away far too much information.

    He has repeatedly said all you need is the poem.

    I don’t blame any amount of cynicism regarding my proposed solution. But everyone will always pick apart any proposed solution until they know it is the proper one.

    We are programmed to automatically want to say why other’s solutions are wrong because deep down we all have to believe that we are closer to finding the treasure than others. That is part of the chase.

    • We don’t pick apart all the solves and ideas. You statement is as absurb as your search area.

      We often support each other and work together. We suggest new ideas and search areas. We have loads of fun.

      You are speaking if an area hundreds of miles outside the perimeters if the Chase. It’s beautiful out there in Chaco and you may well find treasures there. Your just not going to find the one we are discussing here.

  69. Actually reading that notation doesn’t concern me because, those are not Forrest’s words. He wouldn’t be speaking in 3rd person like that, which means he never said that it was in the highlighted area of the map. At least not that I can see.

  70. Wise Owl——

    Have you considered this? That map is seen by thousands and thousands of people. It clearly says on the map that the treasure will be found in the highlighted area of the map of the Rockies.

    If this was incorrect do you think Forrest would allow that map to be view viewed? What if the treasure was found it was NOT in the highlighted area of the map? He would be accused of fraud, and of misleading thousands of people.

    Do you think he would risk that, and leave an incorrect map out on the market like that? I don’t think so.

      • Jonsey—-

        Example: Page 11 of a book contains 4 paragraphs. Paragraph 2 and 4 are “highlighted” in yellow. We are told “hints to the treasure can be found in the highlighted areas of page 11”.

        So, I will look for hints in paragraphs 2 and 4 as I have been instructed that clues are found there.

        Or, I am told, “clues are found in the highlight reel of today’s game”. So, do I watch the whole game again to garner clues, or follow instructions and watch the highlight reel?

        I believe I would do as I was instructed. The map “highlights” an area of the Rocky Mountains. It highlights Western Montana. So, do I need to search Eastern Montana outside the area I have been instructed that the treasure is hidden?

        No— it is not in the “highlighted” area. I think it is pretty straight forward— I don’t think Forrest is twisting the word highlight to mean anything except what is clearly intended. IMO. 🙂

  71. “I’m not assuring people of anything,” Fenn admitted. “I went out there and hide a treasure chest, and they can go get it. That’s it.”
    http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2013/02/28/if-you-re-hunting-for-forrest-fenn-s-buried-treasure-start-here.html

    Whose Rules, ChicagoDave?f
    http://mysteriouswritings.com/featured-question-with-forrest-capitalization-rules/

    “go back to the poem”.
    “Somebody could find it tomorrow and it may not be found for a thousand years. I’m looking at the big picture. A lot of people who are searching for the treasure don’t see it the same way I do. I would love if someone found it tomorrow but if nobody found it for a hundred years, that’s okay with me too.”
    http://altereddimensions.net/2015/forrest-fenn-hidden-treasure-millions-dollars-hidden-gold-jewels-clues-treasure

    To answer your question, Yes, I do think he would do nothing about the map if it was not his mistake. People already accuse him of misleading people saying it doesn’t exist, it being found and disproving them improves his reputation much more than, any damage done to it because people were misled in a much lesser manner.

    If it is about the chase, you can’t issue an addendum saying the note on the map is invalid, or issue a new map with changes, it would be too big of a hint.

    IMO.

  72. Whats the easiest way to post a picture on here. If someone has something already set up to host an image, e-mail me at franks_jam@yahoo.com and I will send you the image.

    It is the walkthrough of the trail with the clues diagrammed out.

  73. Followed the trail a little farther to the wood?

    107°58’56.54″W 36° 2’0.90″N – “The Wood”

    also the dirt hills around the grove look like they would keep warm water trapped (i.e. halt) Arriving at the end to find yourself again where you began.

    This is why the TC is wet.
    There is a road running by it, you would go down to get to the ruins in the area. A car would be 485′ from the far side of the grove, just under 500′.
    A person taking the canyon down or not paddling up the creek would be 300′ from the far side, possibly coming w/in 200′.

    The watershed from the blazing mountains can be continued to walk upstream to reach “The Wood”.

    Forrest often brings up F-4s – Phantoms, as in the phantom hoB.

    He continually threw out false stops at blazes, hence he kept saying the person would have to keep going back and starting over

    Also read there was a change to the second edition of the TFTW book. Anyone got second edition and want to check the shading, too see if it is the same.

  74. musstag on November 13, 2013 at 7:48 am said:

    The map also has listed ‘The Great Divide Basin’. Thats Basin like in sink…. like in holds water….

    https://dalneitzel.com/2013/10/05/the-new-map/

    Someone said that when the map came out. Can anyone verify?

    I think confirmation of this would be a strong confirmation of my solve. Even stronger would be finding the chest under the odd tree looking blob in the NW corner of “The Wood”.

    • The map is in the book and it is also online at the company website who was hired to make it. I linked it below.

    • Keep in mind that it is also within 5,000 and 10,200 feet, and it is at least 8.25 miles north of Santa Fe, NM. Fenn defines North as anything from 271 – 89 degrees somewhere. But its in the highlighted parts of the Rocky Mountains according to the book.

    • Yes, the Great Divide Basin in SW Wyoming is on all 3 “official” maps (the one in TFTW and the two different limited edition poster maps – signed by Fenn – that Benchmark put out).

      K

  75. I only ask because it seems like most people read ‘highlighted’ and then look at the ‘focused’ portion. If I saw a similar map and was asked what’s highlighted on that map I would probably say it’s a map with a poem and the title of a book highlighted on it.

    • If that is the case they should first learn how to read the map before attempting the poem. I think although the chase was targeted at Rednecks in Texas, he needs to at least assume they will use common sense.

      I admit that I have been a graphics programmer for almost three decades, even was on the Photoshop team, so maybe I am biased. But if I looked at the map below I would not search in Idaho, Utah, Arizona, or anywhere in the ghosted out sections. Seems obvious that “highlighted regions” would not include anything masked out with white.

      https://www.benchmarkmaps.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/04/Fenn_Treasure_Map.png

      I hope searchers understand where the Rocky Mountains are because they don’t completely fill the states either.

  76. Logic dictates, “Highlighted”, is yellow. Look at all the other “highlighted” colors on the map. Most people consider the yellow, because it is BLM land, and probably have the least amount of finder’s-restrictions. F said it could be anywhere, a NF, BLM, NP, Indian Rez…so, pick your poison!

  77. I really just need that one person who is dedicated enough to the chase to believe. My own wife thinks I am nuts, freaked out when I told her I was going to NM.

    This box of trees is literally 300 ft off of service road if you live in Santa Fe, 186 miles there and 186 back. Albuquerque 163…

    I will pay someones gas to go search this area if I am wrong. What have you got to lose but one Saturday of your life.

    • I’m going to agree with your wife on this one WiseOwl. Some of us have tried these partnerships and they didn’t work out well.

      If the searcher tells you it’s not there, then he’s an idiot, or did not search thorough enough, or found the chest and kept it for himself. You will not be able to accept that your solution is simply wrong.

      • Non Videbunt….Why is the notation about the treasure being in the highlighted area, not on the Fennboree III map then everybody?

        https://www.google.com/search?q=fennboree+treasure+map&biw=1821&bih=868&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwja87e6ldfQAhUn6oMKHb-KAIoQ_AUIBigB&dpr=0.75#imgrc=Gkxbwefdj1ooCM%3A

        Also look at Google Earth for the area I am talking about, it’s white, hence it is colored white on the map. Highlighted does not refer to the shading it refers to whats being presented.

        When you watch highlights of things, does that mean they are colored to stand out? If I gave you a list of popular attractions in your area am I not providing you with the highlights, regardless of whether anything is actually highlighted?

        Words often can have two meanings. You have simply presumed one meaning when another was intended.

        Would you at least give me that it is possible, but from your stance not plausible? Huge difference.

        • Wise I haven’t seen a Fennboree map so I can’t answer your question. You seem to be a little frantic about this.

          The original says it’s in the highlighted area; but now you say highlighted doesn’t mean colored. Other searchers have brought this ideology up. What it looks like to me is you are forcing the map to conform to your solution.

          I doubt anyone can talk you out of this so good hunting to you.

  78. Why is the notation about the treasure being in the highlighted area, not on the Fennboree III map then everybody?

    https://www.google.com/search?q=fennboree+treasure+map&biw=1821&bih=868&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwja87e6ldfQAhUn6oMKHb-KAIoQ_AUIBigB&dpr=0.75#imgrc=Gkxbwefdj1ooCM%3A

    Look at the google earth of this area, it is all white, hence it appears white on the map. Highlighted does not mean colored in. It means whats being presented.

  79. Wise Owl—

    All the best to you. Forrest did say in one of his weekly words “don’t force the poem to fit your solve” (or words to that affect). We all have a habit of doing the opposite of what we have been instructed to do. We make the poem fit our “solve” rather than following the poem to a solution.

    You are sold on an area, and despite all evidence to the contrary, you are determined to make everything fit your solve. I admire your tenaciousness, but there is a point where abandoning wisdom for fervor can actually be quite foolish.

    But who knows, maybe you’ll find the treasure where you’re looking, even though I believe you’ve been told it isn’t there, and become the highlight of the evening news. 🙂

  80. I am following one clear path, the path of the water from where it halts to where it came from, and it just so happens that the water runs up the chaco, past where the Casa Moreno was recorded to have been, past the rabbit shaped hole in the ground, past the giant red glaring mountain, up over the bubbles with the figure 8, and clear down to a perfectly square grove of the only green area you see within miles.

    Forrest said it wasnt over complicated but difficult.

    What is simpler than following a defined path to the treasure. If I put the treasure on one end of your block, and you were standing on the other, what is the easiest way to get to it??? Right down the road. If I told you start the path here, you will see x, y, and z then the treasure will be right in front of you, To me, if you are on one direct path that takes you all the places you have been told, that is the most logical way to get you to the prize without losing you.

    Achem’s Razor – the simplest explanation is the most logical.

    This solution is being discounted because some people think “highlighted on the map” means colored. If I give you a black and white map and tell you this map highlights the search area, would that be incorrect to say?

    • Wise Owl;

      You state the following, which I find perplexing, “I am following one clear path, the path of the water from where it halts to where it came from, and it just so happens that the water runs up the chaco,”

      What perplexes me is you are following the path of the water – UPSTREAM – and yet the poem says, “And take it in the canyon DOWN.” Isn’t this an obvious contradiction? How can waters run UP? This defies physics doesn’t it?

      If one starts with a wrong supposition, how can one reach a positive outcome? Just wonderin’ JDA

      • JD, the store is just down the street.
        Not say it’s correct way of looking at it. But if WWWH is at the mouth of the canyon then you still might have to travel up/or in to the canyon.

        Good luck,
        JW

      • Begin IT where the warm waters halt
        Take IT in the canyon down
        not far, but TOO FAR TO WALK
        Put in below the home of Brown

        Too far to walk means just that. Your beginning point where warm waters halt is far away, so drive closer.

        If you are not walking, I Imagine the IT you will begin and the IT you will take will be a ROAD. Down, I think everyone has agreed could mean south.

        Take the ROAD from wwwh SOUTH to the canyon and put in below the home of Brown.

        • As your link says, it flows North. Whether a river, stream, creek or rill flows N, S, E, or W or any direction in between, they flow, because of gravity, downhill, to a lower elevation. Yes it is POSSIBLE, upon rare circumstances for a water source to flow up hill, but this is not the norm. I am sure that Forrest was referring to the normal course of action when he said to “Take it in the canyon DOWN” – to me, meaning take the canyon to a lower elevation.

          Just seems logical to me – JDA

          • You’re not alone JD,
            Down in this situation clearly refers to elevation.
            Take it in the canyon down.
            Let’s go down to the store.
            Let’s go to the store down. Just doesn’t sound right & needs further questioning. Down where?

            Down is the last word in the string & therefore tells of elevation.

            It’s getting cold out & I will put on my down jacket.
            I will now put my down jacket down.

            100% of all rivers, creeks & streams all flow down hill to the lower elevation. Sorry SL, that article is not worth anything. There is a difference between flow & rise which the author ignores.

  81. Wise Owl,

    Follow the path that you have chosen – It appears to be what you have been called to do, and is your own opportunity to experience. I hope you find success either way.

    SL

  82. Fenn liked to fly and look for artifacts right? There’s a landing strip farther down the canyon and the entire area is full of ruins.

  83. Suppose you flew into an area like this to look for artifacts, the main areas where the obvious ruins have probably been pretty cleanly picked through. A Casa Moreno that shows up on an old map of the area but with ruins that cant be found would probably seem like a good spot to look for.

    Forrest used to walk creeks looking for arrowheads, he could have walked the wash just like my path and found the wood area.

  84. I am now going to take a really big leap and suggest somethings that may be totally off the wall.

    Hint of riches new and old and the part about the answers I already know…

    http://www.otherhand.org/home-page/archaeology/casa-morena-the-chaco-canyon-outlier-that-never-was/

    The second map from the bottom that shows the Casa Moreno drawn in the lower right corner of tract 17. If you place that tract 17 tile under the 14 tile in the middle I think that would be close to where I believe the wood to be.

    What if he found the Casa Moreno.

    He always said he hid a treasure but the poem says treasureS new and old. Perhaps the Casa Moreno is the Old Treasure.

    Why is it that I must go and leave the trove for all to seek? The answers I already know.

    He already knows where the Casa Moreno is. Its his special place because he discovered it.

    Casa Moreno is the wood. You start out below it and follow the creek up to it.

    • Also Moreno doesn’t mean brown. If you believe that moreno equals Brown you believe FF to be either ignorant of the very reference he is making or that he is insensitive to Hispanics.

      Moreno is used most often as a hair color. Or a reference to people with dark hair. The way that I use the word brunette. I would never use brunette to describe anything other than a person with dark hair.

      To me and IMO FF knows what moreno maron casa blanca and verde all mean. Also he would be sensitive to the way the words are used in Spanish and not corrupt them.

      And I can’t think of a more inaccurate way to describe Chaco Canyon then in the rocky mountains north of Sante Fe. For me I will take the man at his word. Especially considering he already knows

    • I don’t think you’re in the right part of the world, Wise Owl, but all Wild Geese should fly where they will or must.

      I do have some familiarity (both nose-in-book and boot-on-ground) with Chaco and its outliers, so I can offer a hopefully helpful correction to the way you’re reading that 1907 Proclamation map.

      You wrote: “The second map from the bottom that shows the Casa Moreno drawn in the lower right corner of tract 17. If you place that tract 17 tile under the 14 tile in the middle I think that would be close to where I believe the wood to be.”

      (Unless I’m misunderstanding you . . . ) Why would you place the little Casa Morena map anywhere onto the larger map? The big map and the smaller maps beneath it are all distinct, separate locations. The larger map shows the main part of the Nat’l Monument, where the ruins are densest. It’s where everyone goes today when they “go to Chaco,” it’s where the Park HQ is.

      The smaller maps below it are all additional ruins that are distant from the main part of Chaco, but are to be considered part of the Monument. It’s one part of the reason(s) they’re called “outliers.”

      In the case of the tile with Casa Morena on it, it’s a separate parcel of land waaay to the EAST of the larger map.

      The little square with Pueblo Pintado is also east of and beyond the main Monument boundaries, and the site of the supposed Casa Morena is east of that.

      Hope that makes sense, and that it’s useful to you.

      Happy Trails!
      K

        • J A – I concede to you that I clearly misinterpreted those maps. Upon which my whole theory crumbles.

          Allow me to pause while I eat this slice of humble pie.

          Lugnutz – What about the case of say “canada moreno” on a map. Are you saying that would not translate to brown canyon? I really do not know. I’m using google translator.

  85. I have a thought that came to me this morning. I looked up the word “gone” and it is not a past tense verb, it is a participle. “Went” is the past tense and infers you had gone and returned.

    Gone usually means no return (yet). When we read “As I have gone alone in there” proper English would dictate “I have been able to keep my secret where”, not “I CAN keep my secret where”.

    I CAN seems to infer the person is gone and STILL where they were going. I hope I’m making sense. This causes me to wonder if perhaps “gone” may be the key word in the poem?

    Just a thought. 🙂

    • Sparrow, that is an excellent observation!

      In keeping with your thought (gone does in fact mean has not returned yet), consider the rest of that stanza and you have one very good possibility of “what” the speaker is (not who), stanza one defines “I” IMO.

      — Stanza One
      As I have GONE ALONE in THERE
      And with MY treasureS bold,
      I can keep my secret WHERE,
      And HINT of RICHES NEW AND OLD

      Think of something that:
      1. Has GONE to someplace (THERE) and not returned
      2. Is still ALONE in THERE
      3. With IT’s TREASURES BOLD
      4. It HINTS of RICHES NEW AND OLD
      5. It exists right in the poem, alone, boldly hinting at riches new and old

      Name that word and you have clue one, without that clue you will never know WWWH’s. It is a key to understanding something that singles out one out of thousands of places WWH in the Rocky Mountains.

      Get that and you are now (IMO) a member of the searchers who know the first 2 clues. Miss that and you will be searching thousands of incorrect places WWWH.

      All in my opinion of course, but I am not the only one who would agree with this assessment.

      • Thanks Wy. I was sitting in my car when I read your post, and couldn’t resist honking my horn. The people around me looked very confused, but it was worth the noise. 🙂

      • MustIgo,

        If I may ask, why some had figured out the first two clues but have not made it to the chest? Are these 2 clues just words and do not resemble any locations? Do you just end up with the same two clues that the little girl from India can figure out?

        • Easy,

          Because based on stanza one whoever or whatever “I” is had treasures which is plural because there is more than one, in fact there are two, one is old and the other is new IMO.

          The first 2 clues once found and unlocked get you to a location where you will find treasure #1. Which I feel is something such as a map or maybe even a bronze jar. In that bronze jar is a map, the “right” map, the remaining 7 clues are applied to that map in order to lead you to treasure #2 which is the big one.

          So you need to be there, or at least have a picture of that map, which if it isn’t in a bronze jar might be a petroglyph or carved map, maybe even a map to a historical location.

          Once you have the right map or a pic of it, you can apply the last 7 clues in the poem.

          • I’m not sure about that theory, not saying it can’t be but the poem itself should tell us that much.

            I just thought that many say here they have the first and second clue or that they have the right wwwh, to which my understanding is that they (the clues) will get ‘easier as you progress’ but it seems like many are getting stuck there for some reason. Even ff said someone might have gotten clues 3 and 4 but even he wasn’t sure.

            I think now that the code to get clue one helps you get clue 2 and so on and they must be read contiguously, but the meanings of those clues are independent from one another. Maybe a ‘second trip’ down the 9 clues is needed to finally solve it.

    • Sparrow ~ “I CAN seems to infer the person is gone and STILL where they were going. I hope I’m making sense.”

      I could make sense if you ask who is I ?
      Maybe I ‘can’ keep my – [fenn] secret where…
      Now, take stanza 5; So why is it i must go… who is I in thing section of the poem? personal thought, stanza 5 is fenn.
      The first stanza is written in past tense. Even new and old could be considered a reference to past and present. [simply switch from for rhyming]
      Riches as a word usage, to be that of knowledge [rich in knowledge]… is new and old the riches being hinted at?

      If so, is it so hard to see how ‘begin it where’ is of the past. I mean, if this was only a treasure hunt, would this line be ‘ being it at wwh’? “where” may have a double usage as to understanding wwh and when.
      and if so, is it so hard to see “I” can keep my secret “where” in that time [ past ]… to be the hint.
      Two can keep a secret if one is dead line of thinking…

  86. I read somewhere the first step is admitting you have a problem.

    I might have went into a serious tailspin during a 29hr Fenn binge.

  87. “Where’s Charlie? Has he gone to buy a “went” sign?

    “No, actually he went to buy a “gone” sign”.

    “Oh, I wish I had gone with him when he went”.

    ” Me too, doggone it”.

  88. “Oh, Charlie, you’re back. Where’d you go?”

    “Oh, to the little theater down the street. As I have went alone in there I have seen some great old movies”?

    “As you have went alone in there? That doesn’t make sense”

    “Neither do the prices. I paid $13.00 bucks too see Clarke Gable in “Went with the Wind”. I complained but the owner said “frankly my dear, I don’t give a…

    “13.00 bucks?? When we gone there it was only $7.00 bucks, that’s outrageous”.

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