Architecture of the Poem…

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This is the place to discuss the idea that the poem was created by an architect. What does Forrest mean by that statement and how will understanding the poem’s architecture help us identify the clues and find the treasure.

 

445 thoughts on “Architecture of the Poem…

  1. As I write, the snow covers the chase and makes me wonder if the thrill in being wise is knowing what “I” actually means.

  2. I may be wrong, but I believe that Mr. Fenn said that he felt like an architect while constructing the poem. I don’t believe that he received assistance from an architect. I am not sure if his comment his helpful in solving the poem. Perhaps it is.

  3. For me the private act of poetry writing is songwriting, confessional, diary-keeping, speculation, problem-solving, storytelling, therapy, anger management, craftsmanship, relaxation, concentration and spiritual adventure all in one inexpensive package.
    Stephen Fry, author, poet, playwright, screenwriter, journalist[46]

    • Hi Whiskeyes: you forgot to include comedian and actor. Stephen is extremely talented, and his British show Q.I. (Quite Interesting) is terrific!

  4. I’ve thought about this concept ’till my brain hurts (which never takes very long) ..and am of the opinion that the most important component to any architecture is often unseen by the observer.

    I believe that Forrest has woven two layers into his poem;
    one being ‘the facade’, the other being ‘the structure’.

    I just really really (REALLY) hope that there’s not a third layer, as I’ve completely run out of aspirin, again
    🙂

  5. I think he simply meant that he had to design and craft the poem with attention to detail like an architect. The poem had to be ‘built’ with careful choices for each word to assure they had the proper meaning for the message he wanted to convey.

    -Randawg.

    • I agree Randawg. This is the interpretation of his statement that came to mind when I heard him say he felt like an architect.

    • I also agree Randawg, but with a slightly different spin.

      Before ever climbing that ladder and climbing into the cockpit of that F-100 there was a tremendous amount of mission planning to increase the odds of success. Though not as critical as war planning, commercial/private pilots file flight plans.

      In architecture you must first plan and then design. But during design, the architect will tweak his design because he’s striving for perfection. That’s exactly what I think f is referring to in his use of the term.

      So considering the quality of brainpower being applied to solving this puzzle, I think he’s a Master Architect, deserving of all the accolades bestowed on him, past, present, and future.

      • Architects don’t strive for perfection. All new designs can be considered radical. Until (it) is standing and proven, the builder/architect remains in true suspense of weather the design was successful…..or not.

      • Pinatubocharlie I agree that ff had very good plans and put a great deal of work making the poem just right,or the chest would have been found. Don’t count out his love of adventure and flexibility- “Flying North”, he just got in his plane and flew until he found a spot the wanted to land, no plans or flight plans. What a great way to escape from the rat race.

        • Forrest has enough flexibility to be a Russian gymnast! I think he may have built into the poem 22 of his favorite adventure spots…just because he could, and just to keep folk searching for many years.

    • Don’t confuse the difference between an architect and an engineer. An architect focuses more on the artistry and design of the building, while the engineer focuses more on the technical and structural side. Fenn’s poem needs to work and provide a solution, an architect can draw something that does not have to work. I personally think Forrest chose the wrong word, unless the poem leads to nothing 😀

  6. The difference between good and bad architecture is the time you spend on it. – David Chipperfield

    Forrest spent 15 years on it.

    • That was a very fun little rabbit hole! A mystery, secrets, a murder, an possible illicit love affair. Wow, that has all the components of a great novel. It’s fun to speculate on what actually happened way, way, way back then!
      Thanks for sharing!

  7. Looking at his comments holistically related to poem structure I wonder how related he intended some of the things he uses to describe the poem.

    1) “They’re contiguous, I knew where I wanted to hide the treasure chest so it was easy for me to put one foot down and then step on it to get to the next foot, thats what I did.” Also use of term “sequential”. In my opinion related descriptions about working backwards from his spot to identify related places, paths, etc. and “then step” meaning creating poetic clues and rhyme.

    2) “I felt like an architect”. Perhaps describing the more complex design of the poem. The second or third layer if you will. Straight forward and sequential? Yes. But architecture is about design with the intent of an end objective of maximizing strength, stability, flow, etc. therefore in context of his poem most likely to increase the complexity and depth so that the chase will last longer. IMO

  8. Forrest has said, “Here is what I would do. Read my book in a normal manner. Then read the poem over and over and over, slowly – thinking. Then read my book again, this time looking for subtle hints that will help solve the clues.” f.

    Why does Forrest repeat over and over the fact that we should read the poem over and over and over again? When I did this, Stanza #6 “in the wood” seemed to flow into “alone in there. They almost became one. For me, this showed me the circular architecture of the poem. This process took me from a global view of where the treasure lies, to a very specific place that I feel it lies. Without looking closely at this circular architecture, I do not feel that I would be where I am today…I feel, close to finding the treasure. But that is just me, others may see it differently. JDA

      • I walk approximately 1/2 mile (Give or take 200′) from the parking place to where I think that the treasure lies.

        I will know this spring. JDA

        • I was just curious. I’ll have the Nehi chillin’.
          But I need to add this. Of course you know f walked less than 1 mile to the spot. but then says, “if you are walking long distances in search of the treasure, you’re walking TOO FAR.” And the poem saying “not far but TOO FAR to walk”, obvious one must walk a long distance.
          So, is 1/2 a mile a long distance? We will find out in the Spring, right? I don’t want to burst your bubble by saying this person’s name, but, Seeker made good points awhile back by bringing up f’s after comments and how important they are. The architecture of the poem is one thing, but the architecture of his words and how he uses them as far as the chase is concerned is what needs attention. The first clue “nailed down”, the word that is “key”, not far BUT too far, if he walked only 1 mile, what walked the “long distance” for him? All things that need to be considered. Good luck JDA…

          • I thought that the “Not far, but too far to walk” related to the distance between wwwh and hoB, NOT from the parking spot to the treasure. At least that is the way I see it, but you may be right, and I could be wrong. we will see this spring Charlie.

            JDa

          • NFBTFTW to me is a distance of greater than 6 miles (for an 80 yr old man).

            I do understand that there are many 80 yr old men that can probably walk greater distances, but not on average, so we must use statistics or averages for this distance.

            Why six miles to start? No real reason except it is one marked distance I have found in my solve….driving along a mountain service road.

            Now could it be a larger distance? Possibly. I have a measurementbif 52 miles to “take the canyon down”.

            IMO – Fenn structured the poem to include some precise measurements within the poem from clue to clue.

            I’ve even used his 8.25 miles “distance”, and have applied it to the distance between two clues…almost precisely for my solve.

            Coincidence? Maybe. Maybe not.

            Just my input.

          • The funny thing about NFBTFTW. fenn, in the second book, related it to is age… Don’t have the book, just going by what others have quoted from the book… IMO, that simply related to time. At one time he was able to, and now at this time, not capable of. Physically? or in time?

          • Charlie, where did ff ever tell us he walked less than a mile???? He made two trips from his car to the hiding spot “in one afternoon”, that could be anywhere from 10 minutes to 6 hours. IMO it is probably less than a mile, probably a lot less, but I have never read or heard any comment that limited how far it is in a distance. Could you let me know where he said that? It could eliminate some of my spots.

    • JDA, I believe that you are onto something here. It is obvious to me that you and I are hundreds of miles apart in our solutions (in regard to location). Yet, in general I am with you. I want to read through the remainder of the posts before I make a comment that further explains this reply.

  9. pdenver–

    Not sure how much help it will be, but I immediately thought of abbreviations and acronyms when thinking of architecture. Happy hunting! 🙂

  10. There is a lot of pleasure in designing/creating works like house plans or a poem full of clues. Of course, there’d be a lot of pleasure in opening the chest. Don’t you all want to see the framework, the hidden structure that Forrest’s mind designed, and not just for the sake of an emerald or two, but to be able to see the solution/answer/secrets?

  11. IMO – Architects design using methods which use two dimensional tools, either on paper or using a computer program. The outcome, the building is three dimensional, where it sits on the land, its position, which way the building faces, the size of the structure etc. Forrest had to answer these type of questions on paper (2d) with a 3d outcome. With his words he is trying to position you in a 3d world without saying the chest is at such and such place.

  12. Perhaps Mr. Fenn also sought to design his poem with the same attention to symmetry that an architect often employs. Thus giving us 24 lines to find a 42 pound treasure (2442 a nice symmetrical number).

    • 8.25 miles can be anywhere north of Santa Fe. It doesn’t mean you start 8.25 miles north of Santa Fe.

      Notice FF is not spevific, yet vague, as he is with all of his quotes. He says things on purpose, in order for the listener to understand his method and probably more so for his own enjoyment….which I haven’t ruled out yet.

      Cheers and GL in 2017.

    • Joshua,
      While that is a clever thought. The comment was; more than 66,000 links… Even if it was meant as 825 miles, we still have the ‘more than’ to consider.
      Do you think this was an actual hint/clue from fenn or imo, again, just a thought provoking idea that might help the reader to be ‘precise’ in attempting to solve the poem?

      Some searcher continue to believe fenn is attempting to lead them to the chest by many hints external from the poem and the book. WW’s is a good example of this, as some thought fenn was directly hinting to them through their e-mails to fenn and fenn replying hints back in WW’s… and dismiss the fact that those comments were provided months in advance.

      I have to wonder with all the effort fenn put into this challenge, not only for the now explorer, but to influence generations from now… why he would actually ‘help’ in the discovery. Imo, this challenge was cleverly crafted to get folks out, searching, looking, exploring..discovering the thrill.. but designed for the one that can pull it all together with the information that fenn provided within the poem. I personally don’t think of the after the facts as hints / clues… but designed to provide thought.

      Why are the RM’s sections of Idaho and Utah removed? Why is Canada not in the running [ the mistake in tftw book]? Why not just say the chest is within a single state? Why didn’t fenn tell the readers the RM’s from the start? are just a few things I think about and never considered hints/or clues only thought provoking….Well, except for one… Canada. That was a strange oversight for such a meticulous man with years of planning, not see, and placed inside a second book, titled with part of the poem.

      So your post begs the question… why remove the . when the comment was actually about 66,000 links explaining ‘surveying’ methods?

      • seeker—-

        The “mistake” about Canada has often intrigued me. Could this “mistake” actually be a hint concerning a clue? Wolf had mentioned a few years back that Canada could be the Home of Brown, as Roy Brown, a Canadian pilot, shot down Baron Von Richthofen in WW1.

        When I first came to the board I wondered whether “from there it’s no place for the meek” might refer to the USA as it is called “the home of the brave” (thus, no place for the meek).

        The two lines, HOB, and “no place for the meek” follow one another, so the thought of a “border” seemed to appear.

        I just wanted to share that as I hadn’t pondered it for quite a while.

        • I’m right there with you Sparrow on that point. Not the snoopy version of the red baron, but the ‘home’ of the brave.
          Our national symbol is the bald eagle, Canada is the beaver. I don’t look at ‘home’ has a place or physical residence like a house, as much as habitation. IF this should be correct in the separation of the border… then we might conclude “the end” as the same usage; boundary or border…but if so… it shouldn’t be THAT border or boundary area, but another, right?

          The problem with this type of interpretation is, the first clue. In my mind the first clue is completely associated with all the clues that lead to that other boundary or border. The first clue is a place, but not what many might think a place is… in this theory.

  13. As a new searcher I sometimes find it difficult to understand exactly what everyone is talking about and I think many times it’s because people use terms differently. I thought it would be fun to brainstorm some definitions and categories with respect to poem architecture in this discussion. I may be off base but here are my initial observations about your collective thoughts after reading for a few months. Feel free to correct the assessment!

    Depth:
    Single – The poem clue are read and used once. This does not exclude multiple meanings of clues but does restrict their use to one application.
    Multiple – The poem clues are read and used multiple times in multiple applications.

    Structure:
    Linear – Clues essentially provide a consecutive set of directions which ultimately will take you from a single starting location to the hide; whether or not those clues are used once or multiple times with potentially multiple meetings is irrelevant.
    Layered – Clues have layers which must be used in conjunction with each other in one way or another to determine the hide location. Similar to the concept of a geospatial overlay.

    Style:
    Literal – Words and sentences mean what they say. The solve is primarily logical.
    Imaginative – Words and sentences are heavily imaginative and metaphorical. The solve is primarily solved using this method.
    Both – Both styles are of equal necessity.

    • Clee,
      Your someone who is brainstorming… It’s great to see, when many know what they think they know.

      I will comment on one of your categories; Multiple Meanings… My thoughts, not only can the meaning and usages of a word or phrase be used more than once for understanding a clue, but actually twisting the “usage”. My best example is creek; simply meaning a narrow passage. Yes, narrow as water moving though in most “definition”
      But does water need to be involve, to have the word be correctly used as something else without water involved? I think it can be, and still hold true to both usages of straightforwards… even without water involvement.

      I can say the same with “begin it” and its usage to “begin it where” which in my thought can change the poem past and present design, to be of the past and not so much thought of being in the present… which it seems, how it was used in stanza 1 [past tense].

    • Macro:
      Looking down into a region from above, normally by a map of sorts.

      Micro:
      Street level Google Earth
      Boots on the ground
      Verily specific trail map

      Good luck.

  14. Architecture of the poem – If the poem was a home, you might be able to say that the first two stanzas are the roof and trusses, the middle two verses are the walls and the last two verses the floor and foundation.

    Each is essential to the other, yet we do not design a home based upon the roof. Nor do we design a home based upon the design of a rugged foundation. It is really all about the [middle, the rooms, the living area] where we intend to function comfortably.

    Yet construction takes place from the foundation to floors, walls to roof and finally finishing off the [middle, the rooms, the living area] which is the ultimate goal.

    So every stage is equally important – at the appropriate time.

    If those architectural basics are applied to the poem (IMHO), then the last, two stanzas provide for
    [architects plan = Forrest’s motive]
    along with the [foundation = general area of the Chase]

    The first, two stanzas provide for the [roof and trusses = specific area of the Chase].

    The middle, two stanzas provide for the [walls & living area = the clues that actually hide/will lead to the chest.]

    Not sure if that helps anybody…but it works for me!

    • For those who might say, “NO, you are not following the poem in the order that it was written!” One must ask, “Would that be sequential order or chronological order or numerical order or alphabetical order or -perhaps- architectual order?”

    • LMN;

      I see it possibly in a similar manner, but up-side-down.

      For me Stanza #1 lays the foundation. Without the foundation, the structure is built on soft sand. Get the foundation correct, and the rest of the structure will stand fast.

      Stanza’s 2,3,4 and 5 all provide the details needed to build the floors, the walls, and the ceiling joists. Many see stanza’s 5 and 6 as just ornamentation – the frills on the house. I do not. For me, they provide as much “structural” information as do stanza’s 2, ,3 and 4.

      Stanza #6 is the roof. Without a roof, you just have a BOX, of “n” number of levels. With a roof, you have a house or home, or business office, or whatever – a livable/usable structure. Stanza #6 ties the foundation to the walls, to the roof. It is what brings it ALL together. JDA

      • JDA, I am not sure what you see, wish I did, I see some structure similar to you though maybe. I do not think the poem is upside down however, IMO. I reference Kenworthy’s books in the following, on how to read a coded letter map. There is no map legend provided by Fenn to indicate North, no big scribed N or compass arrow. How do we know North is at the top of the poem, and that the poem is not a mirror image? I will throw out a big one to kick off 2017. Look on line one of the poem. You will see the letter “s” in the very first word “As”, so perhaps South is at the top of the poem? Hidden right there in front of your nose the whole time. But wait, this is contradicted because there is also an “n” in the word “gone”, so perhaps North is at the top of the poem? I believe North is correctly at the top, as the word “gone” has an “e” adjacent and to the right or east of the “n”, proving the correct cardinal orientation of the poem. This is confirmed again in line one of the poem by to word “alone” . For a second time in line one, on the very top of the poem, Fenn tells us North is at the top and East is to the right, therefore South is at the bottom, etc. If the poem is a map of sorts, the poem architecture is correctly oriented. That is about as explicit as I can explain it for you. It would be generous if someone could respond with something as equally useful, either on the blog or privately.

        • Homebrew;

          My comment has nothing to do with North or South. My comment was directed to LMN, who said that to him, Stanza #1 related to the roof of a structure. I think that stanza #1 relates to the foundation.

          For me, I think that to try to equate an “S” in aS to equal South, or the “N” in goNe to relate to North, is a far stretch – either way.

          What about the “N” in “in” – a”S” I went aloNe iN there and with my treaSures bold, I caN keep my Secret where, aNd hiNt of treaSures New aNd old. – Which “S” or “N” do we follow? – I guess that there are more “N”‘s than “S”‘s so it means North – Sorry, I just do not think that that is a hint or clue. But what do I kNow. JDA

          • Again referencing Kenworthy, look at the top of the poem. I am only looking at line one for cardinal directions. Not all of stanza one. Maybe it will help someone.

          • Yes he may be able to solve it. To consult with him however, I would need the assistance of the Long Island Medium. Best of luck to you also.

        • Homebrew;

          I agree with you that the poem is a map of sorts.

          IF you can correctly figure out the correct wwwh, you will be able to locate it on a map. From there, one can correctly locate a canyon, and take it “down” – meaning either southerly or lower in elevation, or both. One can either drive (going parallel to the valley floor – may or may not have water in it) For me, and my solve, it does. Travel a certain distance (NF,BTFTW) and put in BELOW (South of maybe) the hoB. A map is being drawn, or you are following your progress through the poem on a GOOD map. Just my way of reading the poem – yours may differ. JDA

          • I take it as a literal map in that the first 2 and last 2 stanzas are North and South respectively. That leaves East and West in the middle. Bulls eye is “wise and found”, if you draw lines thru the center of the poem, up and down and horizontally. Extrapolating this to the map, Thermapolis, WY is the warm waters…. etc. Not sure where to take it from there, maybe Bighorn canyon? Devils tooth?

        • Homebrew, it’s only my opinion, but when determining the beginning place/state you plan to start, I believe it’s more beneficial to consider the 32 points of the mariners compass and plot an X rather than selectively following n-s-e-w letters thru the poem. As an aviator wouldn’t Forrest naturally follow the compass points on his radar screen? I chose the mariners compass because it’s the oldest compass based upon fixed celestial stars. The Aviators compass was adapted from the mariners compass. In Thrill of the Chase, Forrest mentions employing mountain man wisdom to determine directions indicating directions based upon the sun/stars. He also included a photograph of himself flying his Piper Malibu above a dirt road. Caption reads headed north, but if you assume top of page is N then he would actually be heading south. This could be a hint that he used nonconventional directional methods.

          After determining your “spot” or spots to search IMO all rules may be thrown out the proverbial window. He may have used lone star bottle cap pictures and Egyptian hieroglyphs or it could be straight forward directions according to poems 9 sentences.

          Forrest is a sly fox and in my ‘guesstimation’ a genius. After 4 years I have no illusions about matching wits or getting inside his head. For all we know he was a signal code breaker, artist, savant, and 32nd degree mason while writing books, cultivating the art world and acting as botonist planting Mike Kammerer’s ranch..right?

    • LMN,
      I get the analogy and it falls in line somewhat with this thought~ Randawg stated it well~ I think he simply meant that he had to design and craft the poem with attention to detail like an architect. The poem had to be ‘built’ with careful choices for each word to assure they had the proper meaning for the message he wanted to convey.
      -Randawg.

      I bring this comment in conjunction with yours’ because of “detail”… The one thing fenn stated was, the “clues” are on consecutive order. The plan itself, might be, another ballgame. We keep looking at the poem as a structure, and may be we should look at it as having designed plan… this imo is where contiguous falls into place.

      Attempting to “find” clues in the poem, instead of having the clue ‘present’ themselves. The reason I say his is, just like your foundation, to the roof it seems to imply, we need to locate the clues first, then just proceed from there. Does this “finding” what we hope are clues confuse us even more?

      Personally and in my opinion only… I think fenn designed to poem to have us fool ourselves to do exactly what many are doing… 1. find what we think are the clues and match it to the physical land. 2. Stomp allover the mountains looking for that elusive first clue, we hope we know, to be the first clue, and simply walk to the chest. The poem thus far has done just that.

      We are starting 2017, seven years into this, So I would like to repeat my favorite question… Are we reading the poem wrong? LOL ~ I promise not to ask this question again until 2018.
      I’m just going to sit back now, and read comments like; ‘I know within 12′ were the chest is’ or ‘pick a method and stay with it’ or ‘I know where it is now, again, and will retrieve when the weather is better next spring or summer or fall… yada yada yada.

    • Hi LMN, you say the specific area of the chase is in the first 2 stanzas? That is bold… and, does that mean that you don’t see the ‘word that is key’ in the first stanza? Using this logic then the ‘key’ would be in stanzas five or six.

      I wonder, why a house and not some other structure?, or did you use that example only to make your point about the architecture of the poem.

      • HI Oz! My post was my attempt to contribute to the blog without revealing too much about my solution. I used the house, simply because we can all relate the the design and construction of a home. Without laboring over my post I will try to clarify by answering your questions. Yes, I do think that the first 2 stanzas provide me with a specific (within 500 ft.) area. I do believe that I – understand – the “word that is key.” Not sure why you assume that I conclude that I am saying it is found in the last 2 stanzas.

        • Oz. That was a very poor sentence that I ended with in my reply. So, I am saying the “word that is key” would not be (IMHO) in the last 2 stanzas.

        • Lmn, you are right, that was my assumption based on your solve that the last 2 contain the [architects plan = Forrest’s motive] and why not hid a key within the ‘plan’ I thought…

          I see your logic there but many will definitely say that is not contiguos or straightforward, I’m open to all ideas though.

          • Oz, It is contiguous and straight forward, IF stanza 5 serves as -both- a straight forward 5th stanza AND a point that the poem could loop and start all over again and therefore be contiguous as well. Forrest did a masterful job or tens of thousands of searchers over thousands of days and millions of minutes would have already completed the Chase.

  15. Remember… F said…
    “What surprises me a little is that nobody, to my uncertain knowledge, has analyzed one important possibility related to the winning solve.”
    Maybe, the “poetic angles” help to determine what the nine clues are, and the “angles” need to be analyzed. They are defiantly present in the poem.
    “Angles” are a basic necessity in architecture .

    • That particular Forrest quote is about 24 months old (or more) and it would be nice to know if he would say that is still true today.

      • LMN, It doesn’t matter how old his quips of reference are, look at the one from yrs ago…”Begin at the beginning.” Still applies today. I have NEVER heard him say, “Oh, THAT old thing? That doesn’t apply to today!” LOL
        Sorry, but your comment struck me as rather ludicrous.
        But hey! He did mention some advice he got YEARS ago, to not correct someone when they are wrong, so LMN, you just disregard EVERYTHING F said up til, say, yesterday, so we all have a fighting chance of finding the treasure!

        It still holds true today, or someone would have the treasure now. Always keep an open mind to new ideas, my idea may be what he’s talking about. I’ll keep working on it. You keep on …what ever you do. (Said with a smile)
        All MO.
        ¥Peace ¥

        • Hi Donna!

          What LMN was wondering is if ff would/could still say today “. . . that nobody, to my uncertain knowledge, has analyzed one important possibility related to the winning solve.”

          Seems like a pretty reasonable question to me.

          K

      • Ya-sha-wa… thanks! I see that. I agree with your process, F said not all nouns are clues, but logic dictates that you hit on some good ones. ( IMO)
        Also your advice on the ones that down play other’s ideas…yes. Agreed.
        I feel the design of the poem is as important as what F is saying in the poem. They go hand in hand. Each step leads to another step.
        I Enjoy your thoughts!
        ¥Peace ¥

        • Thank you Donna M !
          I just posted some NPS Arrowhead Worksheets at the same thread that may interest you . Forrest is a slick one and a comment of not “all” nouns for sure would be true when we are only talking about some nouns and even nouns that are not in the poem . Enjoy !
          NAMASTE !

  16. When I studied Architecture, back in the dark ages, all of our projects began with a perspective drawing of the completed project. Then came front, side and floor plan drawings. The final drawings were details of construction.

    This approach would dovetail nicely with end where you begin theory.

  17. Thought I would share an information find I ran across regarding cross referencing “Brown” and “Architecture” and found a gentleman by the name of Lancelot ‘Capability’ Brown a renowned landscape architect in Great Britain. What struck me was a quote I found regarding his description of his designs:

    “Now there’ said he, pointing his finger, ‘I make a comma, and there’ pointing to another spot, ‘where a more decided turn is proper, I make a colon; at another part, where an interruption is desirable to break the view, a parenthesis; now a full stop, and then I begin another subject'”

    Don’t mind me, just looking at random tangents and falling in the rabbit holes.

    • While reading “Capability,” I’m reminded of a recent comment Mr. Fenn made in regards to answering why “halt” and “walk” didn’t rhyme, and his answer (paraphrasing) was due to his limited “ability.”

  18. Been there and really enjoyed his story. The Flyer has been known to tend a garden or two and might well be familiar with Mr. Brown.

  19. Greetings, I’m 4 weeks in to the Chase, so perhaps a noob question. In which stanza does one find the treasure? Stanzas 1, 4, and 6 seem to qualify based on words used (riches, chest, and gold respectively). Stanza 4 seems least likely if one is to begin in stanza 2 (WWWH), because the clues are in consecutive order and that would mean 9 clues would reside in stanzas 2, 3 and 4. That would render the ‘chest’ as a euphemism for something else. Second question, what happened to the ‘s’ in the word ‘answer’ between the publication of TTOTC and TFTW?
    Thanks for reading, best of luck.

  20. Have you ever asked yourself why Forrest said (paraphrasing) read the book, then read the poem over and over and over again – 4, 6, 8 even 10 or 12 times, and then go back and read the book looking for hints that will help you find the clues? Why, too, has he said, If you can not find Indulgence, go back to clue #1?

    I think that there are very important messages here. The more times you read the poem, the last clue seems to flow directly into the first clue. Whether you read the poem as written, or whether you read it, as I have re-ordered it – Stanza 561234 – the result is the same. The poem becomes a circle.

    Once you go through the six stanzas – solving every (9) clues – and you have not found Indulgence – What are you to do? The answer – go back to clue #1 (Whatever that clue is).

    This means that you may need to find a second wwwh, a second “canyon down” etc. Doing this as many times as is necessary to find Indulgence, or exhausting every possibility in your search area.

    I know, Finding the “Correct wwwh” was hard enough, how can I find a second or third or fourth etc? Answer – different or differing definitions of what wwwh is… and there are several possibilities.

    hoB MAY mean one thing at your first reading, but something quite different in reading #3 or #5.

    Just something to ponder folks. Although the poem (to me) is straight forward, there may be a level of complexity that many may not have looked at.

    One reading may take you on a trip from place to place, another trip may take you on a trip through time. Think layers, think ever smaller spirals of space. Use your imagination. But then, what do I know? NADA JDA

    • I can’t even believe you had just stated this JDA.
      I have thought about your scenario & others similar to yours as there’s came earlier here.

      How could the poem be straightforward as he has said 3 times now in as many years trying to steer us back in his way of thinking?

      I am not going to go back & think about what you are speculating & see what you are thinking cause you didn’t find it & probably never will.

      You dismiss & ignore 4 things from his speakings & that is what you get when you don’t listen to him good: “So hear me all and listen good”.

      I don’t hear a thing when it comes to searchers that can’t listen good.

    • Did it ever cross your mind that the 1st clue & where the last clue is have a great deal in common?

      Let’s rewind. If you don’t have the 1st clue, stay home & play canasta, you got nothing, go back to the 1st clue.

      What did he say about the most important cue?
      I believe it was the last clue.

      I think if you don’t have the 1st clue, you can never get the most important last clue.

      They are both places on a map. Maybe secret fishing spots, or bathing spots or where he skinny dipped.
      Either way, there seems to be a parallel or mirror if you will to one & the last.

      You got the 1st & all in between will come together easier in order until you reach the one & only blaze which will have similarities to the begin point.

      Happy swimming.

    • JDA, By ordering the poem 561234, does that also mean you feel the clues 1-9 are contained between the words “Begin and cease”?

          • Thanks for clarifying that JDA. That is an interesting perspective. I’ve considered the stanza’s may be out of order, but have not centered my search or my solve around that idea. Another path to consider while I wait for snow to melt 🙂

      • KK,

        I think the process that JDA is talking about the 561234 is changing the structure of the poem. He says he is not messing with the poem at all. [I’m not beating up on JDA] The structure of the poem as written should not be changed even in ones mind. I believe in doing so will take the clues out of consecutive order. JDA and others believe the 9 clues stop at “cease”, for me there are more clues after cease.

        IMO

          • …or so you believe. I don’t. It is my belied that stanza’s 5,6 and one are hints, not clues. JMO – JDA

          • Sometimes there is a fine line between a hint and clue. I believe that stanza 1 can be either. I just heard alot of folks slap their foreheads…lol.
            Let me explain my perspective.
            A hint helps us with a clue and a clue moves us closer to the chest.
            We have 4 states to search in…

            As I have gone alone in there
            And with my treasures bold
            I can keep my secrect where
            And hint of riches new and old.

            We know that he went alone in there.
            Maybe Mr f has went alone to many places in all 4 states…however I believe this lines narrows the search area to a Special place to Mr f and IMO that place is YNP.
            BTW…does everyone know that in YNP there is a new and old part of the Park…? IMO of course.

          • Rickinflorida, I think you are zooming in on the correct area.
            Multiple places alone in the woods, deserts, water etc…

            There are many places in the Rockies where you can find new & old to match whatever we are thinking.

            YNP doesn’t seem like an easy place to hide a treasure but yet easy to find by Rangers and gov keeps it.

            Think outside the park, I mean box.

          • Rickinflorida,
            Yes i do think it could be boundaries or border of YNP and Gallatin or Madison. F did have some surveyors experience and knows the chaos it would create.
            The gray areas if you will.

          • Definitely many different ideas regarding a hint vs. a clue. And whether or not rearrangement of the stanza’s is necessary. I know in my current solve, rearranging the stanza’s would be detrimental to my solve, as I a few of the last lines help confirm the specific location. I’ve not worried to much about separating hints vs clues, as it never mattered much to me as to which was which, as long as I found an end. But I like the different ideas because it gives me new ways to look at my solve, or walk through it a different way. Sometime eureka moments come to me that way. To each his own. 🙂

    • JDA,
      I don’t see stanza 6 “flowing” into stanza 1. I also don’t see a circular narrative in the poem. Maybe I’m missing something, but just trying to understand it makes me dizzy. The poem might not draw a straight line, but it is linear starting from the first line and going to the last, IMO.

      You seem to be interpreting the statement about reading the poem over and over as a confirmation that the poem is circular. I see it in a different way. I didn’t get much of anything out of the first stanza until I’d read/recited it over and over hundreds of times all by itself. Hence the suggestion to read it over and over seems like really good advice to me.

      So your statement “The more times you read the poem, the last clue seems to flow directly into the first clue.” doesn’t match with my experiences.

      • Well, JW – That is the “Chase” – We all see it differently. Good luck with your linear interpretation – Hope it leads you “Straight” to the TC – JDA

  21. J A Kraven
    on June 28, 2017 at 9:14 am said:
    And add (from 4/17/17) –

    “Every word is placed in there strategically, and you can’t ignore any of the nouns in that poem.” f

    JAKe

  22. I’ve been doing some thinking lately about Forrest’s statements:
    “look at the poem as if it were a map, because it is, and like any other map, it will show you where to go if you follow its directions” and “I guarantee you, I worked on that thing…I felt like an architect, drawing that poem.”

    In my mind, a map and directions are different things. A map is an image or a picture of a region, with place markers, paths, roads, etc.

    Directions are a set of instructions, or a list of maneuvers a person should take to get from a starting point to an end point. You may not even need a map to follow directions. The poem appears to be more obviously a set of directions to follow… but what if it is actually a map, as Forrest stated?

    Is there a hidden image within the poem? Do certain letters correspond to specific colors or shapes to reveal something? Is there an elevation profile hidden within the poem that corresponds to an area of the Rockies?

    I’ve run the poem through many decryptions and ciphers with no luck. Forrest even stated ciphers aren’t needed, so I don’t think it’s “encoded” in the traditional sense. He made reference to the Smarter Every Day YouTube channel which emphasized thinking differently about things that we take for granted, like the backwards bike video. He also mentioned showing the poem to a child, perhaps because they don’t know how to read yet and they may look at the words and letters in the poem like a bunch of shapes or patterns… without reading meaning into the words.

    Just food for thought.

    • Michael you say,”Directions are a set of instructions, or a list of maneuvers a person should take to get from a starting point to an end point. You may not even need a map to follow directions. The poem appears to be more obviously a set of directions to follow… but what if it is actually a map, as Forrest stated?

      I agree. let’s take what Forrest says is the first clue –
      “Begin it where warm waters halt
      And take it in the canyon down,
      Not far, but too far to walk.”

      Let’s say that something in stanza’s #5, #6, or #1 lead you to believe that wwwh is in Colorado (or any of the other three states) – Without a map, could you visualize this spot? Probably not. So, you pick up a TOPO map or oven Google Earth to “see” this spot called wwwh.

      Do you automatically KNOW which direction in the canyon leads to a lower elevation or south? Probably not without a map. The poem IS a map that takes you from one location to the next, but without a “Good” map you can not visualize exactly what relationship there is between the various points.

      “And take it in the canyon down, Not too far, but too far to walk.” Without putting BotG – how far down this canyon is “too far to walk? You may guess 10 – 15 miles – well, what does this canyon look like for a stretch of 10 to 15 miles? Again, without a Good map, you would not know.

      “Put in below the home of Brown.” Is there ANYTHING 10 – 15 miles down hill or downstream or South of wwwh that COULD qualify as a hoB? Without a Good map or GE, how are you to know. YES, the poem does paint a picture, YES the poem is a map with critical points described, but it takes a Good map to make this “Fuzzy image created by the poem” into a clear reality. BOTH Forrest’s map (the poem), and a Good map are needed to make the picture clear.

      Just my humble opinion – JDA

      • Are all the clues references on a map? { any map }?
        Are all the clues references, places?
        Do we automatically force a clue [ or what we think is a clue ] by making it a place thus making a failed directional map?
        Fenn stated we should marry the clues to a map… and Michael F gives thought to the difference of a map and directions… Yet, a map does have directions [whether or not it has a legend] the top of the map is always North. This gives directions to E W and S. [ Up, Right, Left, Down ].

        Instructions is a whole nutter thing… But doesn’t it appear we have just that within the poem… Instructions that tell directions? Nigh~ left or maybe west. Far~ right or maybe east. Down as south, Up as North, End as a boundary, Maybe “look quickly down, your quest to cease” means; an “end” or barrier that prevents movement ~ A point at which you can only observer from, line of thinking.

        These sound like they can be directions, more than, just instructions. Maybe, Goofy is correct in his theory, we might just need a map for the first clue, nailed down, and botg it from there, following “directions’ and not so much instructions… no more maps needed, line of thinking.

    • There is one map we all know of where we know the chest is somewhere on, TFTW map. There are a lot of words on this map, maybe this map, mirrored or with some influence to the poem, can be played with to show an “X” somewhere. Especially if it is mirrored and, say a town, city, whatever forms an “X”. This could be a starting point, a WWWH if you will. An “X” on a map. The word counts by stanzas in the poem show a pattern, 25,27,27,29,29,29. The obvious next value, or a stanza 7, would have 33 words. Maybe on this map, using the declination values, A 33 could be found with an arrow pointing to an “X” or something. That “X” being the name of the place to start. Or maybe a mirrored 7 forming a triangle would point the way. 🙂
      The point being, he has given us a map and said the chest is on this map, all we need now is to possibly use the poem to mark an “X” on this map. Above is just an example of the poem containing something that is done by design, the word count in the poem. If you find that f has done something “by design”, it’s a good practice to follow up on it. His ATF comments are a good example. They are given to us by his design. Like Seeker has posted before, this could be a good “checks and balance” system. Design, Design, Design….It keeps the guess work out of it.

    • Michael

      “look at the poem as if it were a map, because it is, and like any other map, it will show you where to go if you follow its directions” and “I guarantee you, I worked on that thing…I felt like an architect, drawing that poem.”

      Amazing isn’t it? I mean, that all these years have gone by and no finder yet? So I have always looked at the poem as a set of instructions, and then applied those to a map. However, if the poem is indeed a “MAP” then we must be doing something all wrong.

      My grandson told me that the only way warm water halts is when it freezes. Oh man, that’s really a great observation from a 7 year old. I thanked him for that but he couldn’t really offer much more than that. Maybe that is all we need?

      I have never been challenged by anything I have read more than Fenn’s poem. Now I think he never gave it a title because it is a map! My brain is trying to convert this poem to a map. Crazy thoughts but maybe some meditation is needed at this point.

      How could the redneck from Texas find it with his 12 kids, his wife and their pickup? Food for thought indeed!

      Franklin

    • The poem is NOT a map. The poem is just a set of words. FF has admitted
      to embellishment. And being generally skeptical is a good habit. All IMO.

  23. With all this talk about directions and maps, maybe you should read the maps backwards. Never mind, that is spam.

  24. “look at the poem as if it were a map, because it is, and like any other map, it will show you where to go if you follow its directions”

    Prepositions show direction, location, or time, or introduce an object.

    i have drawn on the poem a bird, a butterfly, a moth, and a kite. i also drew a helicopter, a plane, and a dragonfly but i have since erased them, trying other combinations- i wish i hadn’t- the process took me weeks of concentration- if i could add photos here i would.

    altho i find it odd the drawings were all of things that fly, i never had a clue where warm waters halt, so i abandoned the drawings by prepositions…

    • Maybe the poem needs to be overlaid by the only map we know of. There is a connection between the map we know of and the poem. Now we need to figure out that connection. Any better ideas on finding a starting place I’m all ears. Then again I see coordinates from the poem anyway, lol, so maybe not.

      • that’s a brilliant idea, charlie, but that map came later, and not everyone has access to it… even tho available online, the print sizes would never be consistent…. love the idea tho.

  25. i was just thinking tonight about the architecture, again, as my sister is out in NM following one of our theories.

    As you may know, i’m an architectural theorist (thats what i call it)- meaning simply there is SOMETHING to the structure of the poem- including the capital letters, punctuation, vowel sounds, spaces, word and letter placements, letter sounds, alignment, 6 stanzas, numbers, 9 sentences, other things, whatever- any/or all of it. forrest said, “Here is what I would do. Read my book in a normal manner. Then read the poem over and over and over, slowly – thinking. Then read my book again, this time looking for subtle hints that will help solve the clues.”

    read, then look? read, think, look? it’s not just “listen”

    Imagine in 100 years if this really wasn’t solved, and the whole story and poem followed traditions of oral history- your grandchildren telling their children your treasure hunting experiences, and they recite the poem from memory, passed on and passed on…. things would most likely change just slightly, and stories would differ- the capitals and punctuation and alignment, etc would not even matter- cause oral history is based on sound- not looking at writing.

    if f says don’t mess with the poem, AND doesn’t care if it’s found tomorrow or in 100 years…. that poem will get messed up orally, right? so the answer has to be in the architecture, right? or do i just drop it- and write it on a piece of paper instead of studying the poem directly from the book?

    I hope this makes some sense. any thoughts would be nice.

    • Leigh;

      I am one of the advocates of the architecture of the poem, but only to the extent that I feel that the architecture is a circle. That is why Forrest says to read the poem over and over and over again. Doing so causes stanza #6 to flow right into stanza #1.

      “In the wood” of stanza #6 flows into “in there” of stanza #1…to me they are one and the same.

      This circular structure has also allowed me to move stanzas #5 and #6 to above stanza #1. What does this accomplish?

      1) It places a question – “So why is it that I must go and leave my trove for all to seek?” as the first line of the poem/riddle. Every riddle I have come across starts with a question.
      2) it makes “But tarry scant with marvel gaze, Just take the chest and go in peace.” the last line of the poem, and this makes a lot of sense to me.
      3) Since I see the poem as a circle, moving the stanza’s around, but keeping them in order, I do not consider “messin” with the poem.
      4) I think that one sentence = one clue.
      5) Moving the stanza’s creates a situation where (for me) my new clues #1 – 5, I see as informational clues or hints and clues 6 -9 I see as Directional Clues, with “Begin it where Warm Waters halt…” as the first DIRECTIONAL CLUE.
      Forrest has said that this is the first clue, and I agree, it IS the first directional clue – or the first REAL clue if you consider the preceding Informational clues as hints.

      Makes sense to me, but may be confusing to you and others. JDA

      • SE vocé reparar em duas palavras discretas no poema negrito e corajoso verá o mesmo adjetivo em ambas,assim como forrest disse uma palavra que no poema é a chave,uma outra coriosidade é COLOQUE ABAIXO A CASA DE BROWN, adverbio,posicao inferior,em descida,vejao mais também da preposicão acho que algumas desta palavras se encaixa na busca,pois forrest disse que uma palavra no poema é a solucão de tudo

        • If you notice two discreet words in the bold and brave poem you will see the same adjective in both, just as forrest said a word that in the poem is the key, another corosity is COLLOQUE BELOW THE HOUSE OF BROWN, adverb, lower position, descent , See also more of the preposicão I think some of this words fits the search, because forrest said that a word in the poem is the solution of everything..

          • O JDA me diz uma coisa ou tira uma divuda,forrest fenn disse que fez 2 viagem né correto em uma tarde ou final de tarde do dia,vocé acha ou já se perguntou se dá para percorrer 4 estados sendo 2 viagems,eu vejo de um forma meio peculiar entre novo mexico e colorado entre divisas,o porqué vejo isto exemplo,sobre cometario de sinal DIP,sobre algum que acho ser dica placas e o mais comun que vi se forrest fenn dizer DR PEPPERS/PEPPER,assim como sonhos e um monte de fadas,quando ele fala sobre um homem de pe um cachorro morto sangrado aos seus pés em todas PLACAS,retrato de um monte de fadas dançando ao redor da rochas,sobre a placa acho que deve ser placa de BEM VINDO AO ESTADO OU CIDADE,pois depois de placas.BEM, ENTENDEU ai entra dr pappers/papper,depois terra do encantamento,ou seja fadas,sonhos,e so vi isto na placas do NOVO MEXICO,Não esqueçendo por acho isto em 2013 ele disse algum sobre terras publicas numa reportagem aonde ele fala ue os cidadoes tem direito se não me engano 2600 acres de terra,aonde ele menciono que se ele quizesse poderia esconder ate uma lata de DR PEPPERS, É ISTO QUE EU ACHO ESPERO PODE TA AJUDANDO VOCE E TODOS.
            Pequenas palavras fazem grande significado…

          • No intiendo muy bien. Porque escribas en Espanol? Quiero mas Used sprechen Sie Deutsch.

          • todo mundo ta batendo o pé em YELLOWSTONE verifiquei agora num site de viagem de trem onibus ou carro é bem longe ainda mais sendo 2 viagem para um final de tarde de carro o percuso é de 16;55 só ida mais para esconde o bau e volta e ir de novo sao 68 horas,so uma viagem de ida e volta e esconder o bau 34 hrs isto de carro,agora como a turma anda desconfiando de avião depois onibus e taxis so ida 10;38 x4,a não ser que levo tudo de avião e lá vez 2 viagems, são coisas simples que nós não notamos,percuso hora isto foi num dia ou final de tarde,a reposta é chave e o segredo onde,pois os pontos não batem minha opinião e modo de ver

          • The JDA tells me something or takes a break, forrest fenn said he made 2 trips right in an afternoon or late afternoon of the day, you think or have already asked if you can go through 4 states being 2 trips, I see one I think this example, about DIP sign cometario, about some that I think are tip boards and the most common one I saw if forrest fenn say DR PEPPERS / PEPPER, as well as dreams and a Lot of fairies when he talks about a man standing a dead bled dog at his feet on all PLATES, portrait of a lot of fairies dancing around the rocks, on the plate I think it should be board WELCOME TO STATE OR CITY , Because after plates.BEM, UNDERSTAND there enters dr pappers / papper, then land of the enchantment, that is to say fairies, dreams, and I just saw it in the plates of NEW MEXICO, Not forgetting because I think this in 2013 he said some about public lands In a report where he says that citizens are entitled if they do not I earn 2600 acres of land, where he mentions that if he could, he could hide up to a can of DR PEPPERS, THIS IS WHAT I THINK I CAN WAIT HELPING YOU AND EVERYBODY.
            Small words make great meaning …

    • A popular form of poetry is to make the poem an acrostic.
      The most common acrostic poem is where the first letter of each line spells a vertical word. This is no common poem.

      • Hi Bob#302: indeed. If you are new here, you may not know that a few of us here are well aware of both line 4 and column 20 of the first stanza. And that’s just the beginning.

        • I left a long reply, but it is not here. Usually it is here “awaiting approval”. Anyhow, short version is 1. can you clue me in – letter “n” as in “north” ?
          2. I was referring to an “undecodable acrostic”, where the author writes a poem which has a vertical word showing only when the lines are shifted back and forth relative to each other. Different words are revealed with different shifts.

        • OK, I did a google search, and came across the “In a Well…” post by STEALTH from Sept 2016. This is exactly what I am talking about, but I DO NOT take the lines out of order, just move them left and right. How about “denver” “statecolorado” “golden” “lookoutmountain” “mount zion” and several street names all in one neighborhood.
          I believe that Mount Zion is the starting point from which you look for WWWH (it is about 10 miles up the canyon -Idaho Falls, Colorado)

        • Using STEALTH’s ‘grid’ solution, I believe, reveals intentional hidden hints from FF. He said you just need the poem. BUT that may not be the only way. I think that stanza 1 points to the book of Isaiah, which mentions “Mount Zion” many times. Look at Mount Zion on Google Earth. That giant “M” was designed by Walt Brown of the Colorado School of Mines Class of 1910. It blazes at night as it is lit up by thousands of LEDs.

        • Bob#302: I think you’re over-complicating things. An acrostic approach with too many degrees of freedom is no different than a giant anagram: you can make them say whatever you want.

  26. All nice thoughts about erecting a structure… but I think the survey may be the architects first establishment. Know the site, where the corners are (the edges) and the easements.

      • sorry about my double post… computer keeps telling me I am unconnected to a data base…. whatever that means.
        Pedenver, yes to your Q. I think time might be very important… historic time, geologic time. Even interpretations of conventional clock time like…” lying in bed at 3 o’clock in the morning” – is that a reference to a 15 minute arc or a 15 minute co-ordinate, or just a time when you should be asleep? Is an asterisk ‘converged lines’ or a timely architectural question?

        • It’s possible the things you mentioned to be true, OS2, although I’m not too sure about it indicating about people being asleep. It might have reference to darkness, which we see in the book…sitting in a graveyard at night. Still seems to relate to time and the relativity (I hope I’m using that word correctly) to it. Gosh, the more I keep thinking of what to say, the more I keep thinking of something I’ve been studying.

          • I was always curious about the ‘shower only at night’ stuff in in preface… what an odd thing to put the preface. A skylight flat above? Maybe the Big Sky flat above WY? In a ff quote I found ff mentions ‘skylight country’ somewhere north of Cody. I could find no other reference except a soccer team known as the Skylights.
            In that age hiding shower, he didn’t ‘show her’? Two scrapbooks about ff’s bathroom? The asterisk is after important literature & after midnight. Sloan, ‘waiting for the light to change’….. yes I do think something is blinking on and off. Thoughts?

          • Bravo OS2–sounds like you’re someone who is hip to the aberrations. Question EVERYTHING.

          • Zap, what I look for is wierd, extravagant or unnecessary language or content, then look for reinforcement of it in a different context. Then I try to match it to a word the poem. It’s armchair detection work that I enjoy as I watch TV or need a rest from my other books. Ill never be BOG.
            PD asked about time. I should have been clearer about the “3 o’clock” thing. I was referring to the 3 time scales on pg 128…. hours, years, days …19 years asleep, 3 of them on Monday, Scale is architectural.

          • OS2, it was fun trying to figure out the Math to that equation. I know some of it is approximate, and it all depends on when one begins the time period. From birth, a baby sleeps a lot more. Here are the approximate figures I came up with:

            365 days X 24 hrs. = 8760 hrs. per yr.
            8760 hrs. X 19 yrs. = 166440 hrs.
            (Seven leap yrs. within his 58 yrs. of living have to add 7 days.)
            7 days X 24 hrs. = 168 hrs.
            166440 hrs. + 168 hrs. = 166608 hrs.

            Mondays:
            Approximately 52 Mondays in a year.
            It takes approximately 7 years to equal sleeping one full year.
            52 Mondays X 7 yrs. = 364 Mondays
            It would take 21 yrs. to approximately sleep 3 yrs. of Mondays.

            I think the Math is correct.

            It’s probably easier to say all this equates to the Earth’s rotation.

          • Strawshadow, could you explain your comment, please? I’ve seen others use the word “blink” and I’m not sure what it means.

          • pdenver, Check your blink means a few things to me so perhaps I should cup my nose and just wish you good luck;) trypage 97 in TTOTC.

          • Thank you, Strawshadow. Still a bit confused, just as I was when I read the page, but that’s nothing new. 🙂

        • Yeh, I played with the math too. If it is a clue/hint I don’t think the math or numerical values is the message. I think references another kind of measurement or scale (time, space, or other), The 3 scales of a coordinate or the 3 book bought at Borders were first to come to mind. The themes keep repeating themselves in variant modes. Another curious number play is in Totem Caper… did a kid really work 16 hour shifts? Or in Imp Lit… why was it necessary to mention $6.50 an hour for the register guy? Could all be diversion of course… but I was dealt 4 cards and a joker and I play the game.

          • You’ve made some good points, OS2. I don’t believe a young adult would work that many hours during a day. I hadn’t thought about the mentioning of the cashier’s pay rate.

          • P. years ago I took some art courses (one in printing) & some architecture courses. Before the computer era. The register is the spot one locked overlaying layers together for art prints & for blueprints. It was like a cornerstone or survey plate, a very important marker to align things
            .

          • In the 1950’s At age 14, here in south Al., we worked 16 hours straight on potatoe sheds, 3 or 4 times a week, for about 65 cents a hour.

  27. All nice thoughts about erecting a structure… but I think the survey may be the architects first establishment. Know the site, where the corners are, the edges, and the easements.

  28. talvez se refereçe a uma arquitetura estranha fora do normal,ou os numeros pode ser de alguma obra com dica,assim como deitado na cama incapaz de dormi,deve ser relacionado a medicamento ou algum do genero

    • Google translate says you said this.

      Perhaps it refers to a strange architecture outside the normal, or the numbers can be of some work with tip, as well as lying in the bed incapable of sleeping, must be related to medicine or some of the gender.

      I concur. Good luck with the Chase Rhonny!

      • Everyone is knocking on the foot in YELLOWSTONE I checked now on a train travel website or online it’s even easier 2 more trip for a car late afternoon or percussion of 16; 55 more going to hide the bau and back And go again are 68 hours, then a round trip and hide the bau 34 hours in car, now as a gang and a distrust of plane after buses and taxis are gone 10 ; 38 x4, unless I take everything By airplane and plane 2 trips, are simple things that are not notorious, percuso time this day or late afternoon, a reply is lda and secret where, not in the points do not beat my opinion And way of seeing

  29. I’m sure Dal prefers comments on this site to be written in English Only Rhonny. Most of the members do not understand Portuguese.

    • Maybe Dal should put up a “wall” for non-english speaking bloggers on the WWWeb. Or might it be easy enough to use the Web, such as RoadHawk did, if we would like to communicate with folks around the world…

      • Those who don’t want to communicate in other than English should just ignore those comments. Those who want to give it a go…go ahead…
        As long as I can detect that what they are talking about is the treasure hunt and they are not breaking any rules I will allow non-English comments…
        Most of us communicate with Mr. Hobbit and lord knows he speaks differently… 🙂

          • Nah, You’re in the great Edumacation Saloon of the West. Everybodys welcome; just leave your hostility & weapons at the door and don’t miss the spittoon.

        • Thank you SR DAl, I apologize to all for not having used the translator of idoma, because I just want to help them to discover the treasure, in no hill want to disrupt, as in a saying several heads pension for one.
          Be curious in some comments what you do when you wake up, (I, if you find out, and get up, or sit down before), on dip sign, for me it’s the NEW MEXICO sign, example: DR PEPPERS / PEPPER has this word in the book And also in a report that his fenn says in that if he wanted to hide a can DR PEPPERS in public lands, dreams and fairies, example, that I said some days referring to the text (plates.well) so it is thus WELL COMING TO NEW MEXICO , EARTH LAND << – fairies and dreams.
          Poriço are 4 cards and 1 joker, puzzle game where you have to fit words in the right place, but it is difficult to find the right place of the beginning beginning of the 9 tracks, example GEORGE BURNS HAD 100 YEARS, if they notice the text he never uses Numbers in years is always written, subtle tips easier to find, this is like opening a pandora canister.
          I hope you can help everyone ….
          Good hunting at all …

        • Dal – what’s ‘spoken english’ again?
          ..it def sounds vaguely familiar tbh

          oh wait, don’t tell me! ..Captain Cook invented it, right? ..or that Plato dude? ..or was it Tony Blair?

          ,,am i getting warm yet??
          😛

  30. Talking more about the structure.

    24 lines in the poem. 24 chapters in the book (anyone agree?)
    9 sentences in the poem. Nine clues? (maybe one clue per sentence?)
    1 nine letter word in the first stanza (word that is key?)
    WWWH is the first clue…in the second stanza.
    Am I just that far behind everyone else?

    • I think that what you see, many have seen.
      Is what you see significant? That is the question.
      None of what you listed plays a role in my solve –
      but you may be right, and I may be wrong – (or right) JDA

      • These were my starting points. I have gone way deeper. It’s fun, using database programs, rearranging things in 3D, etc. I just keep going till my brain hurts or life rears its head and I gotta turn away for awhile.

        I wonder whether the solve is staring me right in the face as I merrily overanalyze my way past it. It’s a cool puzzle. I do hope it’s true that when you hit upon it it’ll be obvious and you’ll go straight to it.

        Learning curve #1, for me, was realizing how different GE is from reality! What I thought was a grove of trees was actually a deep canyon.

  31. I’m admiring Fenn’s word play in TTOTC again. This time the “flutterby” anagram below his arched epitaph… is the word “attributed” brought to our attention because it is followed by the ungrammatical “to”? Attributed? A dirt butte? A tri-butte? A tribute to?
    The final paragraph uses the image of a banquet table… and “Then there will be no past.” REPAST is the word I would associate with banquet. Very clever writing. Any thoughts on any hints here?

    • OS2…I have always been drawn to that particular part of TTOTC. The epitaph does seem to refer to past, present and eternity.(3) The banquet table is an image that resonates strongly. I see the Chest on that table…

  32. OK, so that whole acrostic thing seems a liitle far out ? That was just to keep it “in the poem”. Here is the real eye-opener which wll get you in the area quicker:
    Just do a google search of the three NOUNS in the first stanza.
    (google search “treasures secret riches”).
    Now I know FF is supposed to have said that “bible verses” will not get you there. But forget the VERSE (Isaiah 45:3). What you want to examine is the BOOK (Isaiah) in its entirety. By the way,
    “IsAIAh” is bent around the left side of the first stanza.
    Again, please remember me when you are in high places.
    (Really, I don’t need to spell out the name, do I ?)
    2152m
    -Bob302 (FOWG-Fat Old White Guy)

    • Hi Bob.

      You had wrote:
      “Just do a google search of the three NOUNS in the first stanza.
      (google search “treasures secret riches”).”

      Let’s review the accuracy of there only being three nouns existing.

      As I have gone alone in there,
      And with my treasures bold,
      I can keep my secret where,
      And hint of riches new and old.

      I’m seeing the following words can be nouns:
      “I” – pronoun – is this not included because it being a pronoun and not just a noun?

      “there” – a place in this context – a noun

      “treasures” – agreed

      “I” – pronoun

      “secret” – agreed

      “where” – seems to point to a place again, thus could be considered a noun

      “riches” – agreed

      Are you sure if there only being three?

      Good luck.

  33. Hi Dal, I remember when you asked about the cadence of the poem. It seems to me, that the word “quickly”, whether written or spoken, is out of cadence with the rest of the poem. Like it’s faster, than the rest of the poem.

    • JP – i def agree your point, that “quickly” seems thee most conflicting/unnatural word contained within the context of the poem – esp given Forrests intended ideology of families fun’n outdoors in such beautiful surrounds (i.e: def environ-friendly for little-humans too – pesky as they are 🙁 )

      so, given how ‘misplaced’ that word persistently feels, i’d def rank it #2 on the uber-massive “keyword” list for sure
      ..right there behind “wise” imho

      (…but don’t worry mate!! – i abso have a Plan-C 🙂 )

  34. How is it that quickly, down turned into rancorous political debate?

    Just kiddin, Hobbit, Aloha Ja-cinda! full speed and Gods speed Madam Ardern, PM, she looks capable, so back from politics, Quickly, down….(under).

    The question I have always had about “Look quickly down, your quest to cease”, IS this expressions proceeding and following IT;

    “But tarry scant with marvel gaze” So one must wonder if the Blaze IS (also) the Marvel Gaze? “If you’ve been wise and found the blaze.” What if we were “Wise Men” and we must arrived at a certain time of year, perhaps if we are WISE, at a CERTAIN time of year we could look down and see the Blaze, and look up to see it as well.

    As everyone knows I hinted at this idea in “Winter Thoughts” article I wrote in March, 2017 so type in Tom Terrific at the blog search, and view that Blazing yellow gold color covering the Aspen Wood like golden fleece, it only occurs for about a week at the end of Sept. and beginning of Oct.

    Wise men and women hear me all and listen good. I think I am, therefore I am onto something, I think…

    What did the wise men seek under a blazing star? Treasure from heaven? I know ff said bible verses won’t help, but the 3 wise-men from the east did follow that celestial even closely and even brought their own treasures to the child.

    Understanding that the timing of “viewing” the blaze could be a wise move on our part. Now where is this place called Tarry Scant?

    TT

  35. Tell me if you can imagine where this is?

    The date is wrong, I filmed it last week, most of the drone shots are still in development mode and unfortunately much of the Aspen Wood on the Wood River had already fallen, I will be making a video for Winter Thoughts II, coming this winter on stated on this blog as food for thought, over hot chocolate or coffee perhaps during the Christmas Holiday, in honor of 3 wise guys, whose timing for the Blaze was a celestial event.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JCLc_NSUud0&feature=youtu.be

    This is a short video so tell me what you think everyone,

    TT

    • The link says unavailable. I don’t know if anyone else got through.
      As for the bible verse thing… Just because a thought is in the bible doesn’t mean it’s not a navigational thought. I mean, we’re not even sure exactly which star they followed. But we do know, example, Polaris as the north star [ and other that are not star but planets – Jupiter for example ] .
      I’m not diggin the ‘wise’ in relationship to the poem, but [ if I’m following you correctly ] my problem is, if a heavenly body is usable… wouldn’t it need to be seen at a specific time of day [morning or dusk, line of thinking ] to be on a horizon to match a point located on land [ without some sorta tool ]? That would make the viewing location very precise as well, right? I Mean Very Precise… like looking down the barrel of gun sights, precise… depending on distance between the viewing point and pointer [ star ]

      Just saying………

      • Agreed with the point on horizon of a planet, star or celestial body, that would be like finding latitude, which originally was view of the Star Polaris in degrees above and absolute level horizon, in Rockies that would be hard to find a level plane.

        My emphasis was on the idea that the foliage of the Aspen Wood would be a blaze only from the special place or near it at short window of brilliance which is thought to be a very common description of Blaze, not always blazing, just brilliant like the story of the perfect man in Blade Runner, “The brightest star will burn out in the shortest amount of time…..Like a flash buld or a single strobe of brilliant radiance.

        TT

      • I made a 10 minute video of the train leaving the Garfield Memorial Tunnel at Arrowhead Archway in New Mexico and snaking its way along the tracks to Osier, Colo.

        The entire video was done from one point, and one camera, I did not even need my drone films to splice into the body of this film, since I make films for US Immigration and US Parks Service I want to try to offer this video to either the Colorado Tourism and Travel Bureau or NM (True) Tourism and Travel, perhaps the Cumbres and Toltec Scenic Railway Society.

        The Child you see in this video is an 8 year old and even in a snow storm he made this trek no problem to the Marvel Gaze which has no human trail and is 500 ft above the Track in elevation, and before you rush off up there know that I have scoured this area thoroughly with a metal detector and knowledge, nada there, nutin honey as far as a bronze treasure box.

        However I defy you to find a more majestic place than this, and I have filmed many majestic places in my 70 years, 10 trips to Alaska, 3 to Europe, once for a year but never have I been so inspired by a view of the past, the future and spellbinding present. This is a very special place, 1500 feet above the Los Pinos River, 500 ft above the train tracks and at 10,099′ meet the criteria for an Awesome Tom Terrific Adventure, I am creating two videos, one with the music of “Locomotive Breath” Ian Anderson and including “Folsom Prison Blues” Johnny Cash and one with the music from “2001 a Space Odyssey” starting with “Vienna Waltz” Strauss.

        The coordinates are secret but it borders on the unbelievable if you get my latitude. 37 degrees is all you need.

        TT

  36. The odd thing about this location where I shot this video and launched my drone is that everything is down from there, except Osier Peak due north and very near by at 10,700′ which means if if the Blaze is there, it is quickly down from there unless it is a star oh wise men and women..hear me all

    TT

  37. Other thoughts on looking quickly down. When we look quickly at something, (we glance). Tarry scant, is another short quick look, a glance. The only thing I could come up with is, galena, lead ore is referred to as glance. And there’s a Galena, nm. and, a Galena co.

    • I don’t know that Forrest recommended that video, but it is certainly one of my personal favorites when it comes to reprogramming how we see and interact with the world. It shows that, in order to correctly solve a unique problem that doesn’t fit our standard thinking, it takes time to recondition the brain to think in a way that solves differently (the better part of a year for this person to reprogram his thinking for this backward bike task).

      It’s also interesting that each person in the video who tried this task had the same stunned look when they couldn’t master it right away. Pseudo confirmation bias? Their thinking, so each thought, had to be right…so they were surprised when the task could not be completed with their thinking.

      I wonder if that stunned look is similar to the one I had when coming back home rejected – after an unsuccessful trip to find the chest.

      I wonder too if the correct solve combines several algorithms in our thought processes (old, new, etc.). Is the hint of old and new in the poem suggesting this very idea? Ponder that. IMO

      …that was some good coffee this morning…

    • Thank you for posting the video. I have seen it before, but it helps to remind me that I need to look at the poem from a different point of view. You have also reminded me of F’s saying, which is something like – … it’s what you know for sure that just isn’t so. I don’t know the exact quote. Sorry.

    • I think that this video, and the fact that it tells the searcher to look at the world from a different perspective, will be one of the important keys to solving the riddle(s). Once the finder discloses what “changed” in his pattern of thought, that ultimately allowed him/she to find Indulgence, we will all slap out foreheads and say (in unison) “Now, why didn’t I think of that?

      Are we all so busy looking “Ahead” of ourselves, that we forget to look “Behind”? Maybe, once we climb to the top of the mountain, turning around and “blindly” rushing to the bottom again is a mistake. MAYBE the important aspect of reaching the top, is the descent down, and the secrets that can be seen only from this direction.

      Let’s say that there is a “Blaze” marker chopped on the back side of a tree. Will we see it on our way “UP” the mountain? Of course, the answer is no. This “Blaze” marker will only be seen as we go down the mountain. This is just an analogy or an example. No, my blaze(s) are NOT blaze markers chopped on a tree. Presented just for thought – JDA

      • Hi JDA – I’m glad to hear you aren’t using a tree for the blaze since it might not last as long as other things. My blaze is so large one would have to be blind to miss it.

        • LOL.. how can you make a statement like that, HMA… when fenn has answered this Q&A from may of – 16… and not have the chest?

          Mr. Fenn: How far is the chest located from the blaze? ~ casey

          Casey, I did not take the measurement, but logic tells me that if you don’t know where the blaze is it really doesn’t matter. ***If you can find the blaze though, the answer to your question will be obvious.*** Does that help?f

          • Well Seeker, I used what I believe the blaze is to guide me to a spot close by the blaze. I was very close to the what I see as the blaze but didn’t even check it out. If I’m correct snow is covering the chest as I type this but one could go to that spot and find it today.

          • HMA,
            If you truly believe this… what’s the hold up or why didn’t you find it when you did go?
            Maybe it’s just me… but if I could say what you claim, I’d be having a chat with fenn tomorrow, over a nice dinner, asking curious questions about each item… and tip the server with a little gold nugget or precious stone, just for the fun of it.

          • Hi Seeker – Too many miles separate me from the spot where I believe the chest is resting. Indulgence has been hidden for 7+ years so a little longer won’t hurt. I would love to walk to that spot right now but I have to exercise a little more patience.

            Ken – Hopefully winter will proceed in short order.

  38. Hear me all,
    Thanks for showing us the video that Forrest recommended, think I may have to go back to square one or clue 1 and start all over again.
    The mind is a mysterious organ, tricking us to believe…. Wow

  39. Its easy to read things into the poem, like the bicycle that turns in the opposite direction of the way we learned to steer. The whole point is to show that as you try to steer the poem in the opposite direction than what is intended you simply can’t find the treasure. This goes back to what F said, “Don’t mess with my poem.”

    The possible imaginations that the poem has abstract hidden meanings, moving things around, or adding mathematics might be steering some away from any possibility of solving the poem. The other possibility that certain words mean something else other than what the words mean in our everyday lives.

    As I understand the poem in reading the words, I take them at face value instead of other things that may steer me away. The architecture of the poem could very well be straight forward as I believe IMO

    Then again, what do I know, just thinking out loud.

    • CharlieM ~ ‘…steering some away from any possibility of solving the poem.

      What ‘everyday lives’ words are you referring to?
      The English language took a foot in the 6th century. Modern English dates around the 15th century [or the 1400 hundred.] I mean, how long ago was the word “ain’t” or aren’t used?
      If the poem was meant to have any substance at all.. a 100 yrs or a 1000 yrs down the road… does today’s everyday English – usage – have any chance at all in 3009?
      Or to that… could the poem’s [clues references] words have the same affect 500 years ago? I would think they would for both time periods… because fenn was thinking down the road when he wrote the words.

      • Seeker,

        I was talking about today’s use of of words in our current times, not when English in the 6th or 15th century came to be. I think those in the future, 500 years from now would translate their meanings at the time the poem was written. This is true even with the 15th century’s use of the words, today people have to learn what was being written and said in the 15th Century then translate them to current times.

        Forrest couldn’t possibly know how his words and meanings would be used down the road. For all we know the words we use today and in the ways we use them now may be the same.

  40. posted this statement/question over on “The Poem” page but maybe it’s better here.

    Maybe I have missed this part but has Forrest ever stated why there are 6 stanzas in the poem? He could have done it in any number of stanzas. Right?

  41. after many years, 100 blank xeroxed poems – I’ve played with the following… much luck, especially to the underdogs, the silent, and the under-recognized. this is most likely all wrong, the wrong way to solve this riddle- but just in case- may some creative person meet my mind…

    this is where my kite, dragonfly, helicopter, moth, butterly… all flying things (i’ve written about on this blog) came from… there are 9 prepositions, some repeated, but they are
    1. in
    2.with
    3.of
    4.down
    5. to
    6. below
    7. from
    8. for
    9. up

    9 prepositions= 9 clues

    here is ONE way to look at drawing on the poem, if you are an architectural theorist- you will start to notice some patterns- but it starts to get confusing- because “which of, which in, which down…” both? angles? triangles? in “with” or in with “of”? in both withs? in both ofs? many ways to read… are their 9 drawings? or one correct drawing from the correct way of reading prepositions? is this a rabbit hole?

    years of trial and error, these are my best variations… but there are many variations…

    in with of
    in down to in below
    of from for up down to with
    in for to
    in to

    or

    in with of
    in down to in below of
    from for up down to with
    in for to in to

    or if you believe in the 9 sentences, it’s

    in with of
    in down to
    in below of
    from for up
    down to with in
    for to
    (none)
    (none)
    in to

    if you start to look at the prepositions as directional words… i don’t know… this is years for me… many a hit, but no final solve. maybe this is ONE of the 9 clues? maybe this is nothing? something to think about…

    remember- for to = could mean 42, the weight of the chest… which came out early on…

  42. In the 1950’s At age 14, here in south Al., we worked 16 hours straight on potatoe sheds, 3 or 4 times a week, for about 65 cents a hour.

  43. does anyone want to open up – Begin (enter) a conversation about the architecture of the poem? (besides me?)

    best, leigh. – milwaukee.

    • Hi Leigh;

      I have posted this before, but will throw it out there again since you asked.

      I believe that the architecture of the poem is a circle.

      Forrest has said “Here is what I would do. Read my book in a normal manner. Then read the poem over and over and over, slowly – thinking. Then read my book again, this time looking for subtle hints that will help solve the clues.” f

      Why would he want us to read it over and over, and over again? By doing so, stanza #6 begins to flow into stanza #1.
      “in the wood” (in stanza #6) begins to flow “in there” (in stanza #1) – They almost become one.

      By thinking of the poem as being a circle, it is easier to grasp the concept that one can start reading the poem at almost ANY line – a circle has no beginning nor no end – it is continuous – just like the poem – No real beginning and no real end.

      With this in mind, I moved from the “One sentence = one clue” camp into the camp that says that the clues are in stanza’s 2,3 and 4; and that the hints are in stanza’s 5,6 and 1.

      Doing this puts a question – “So why is it that I must go
      And leave my trove for all to seek?” as the first line that is read, and makes “But tarry scant with marvel gaze,
      Just take the chest and go in peace.” the last line.

      So, round and round we go – where this will lead us, no one knows – yet. Just my “Round-about” view of the architecture of the poem – JDA

      • I would agree with JDA. The sentence “The end is ever drawing nigh” seems to refer to a circle—-as you proceed in a circle the end is ever in front of you—because there really is no end.

      • “So why is it that I must go
        And leave my trove for all to seek?”

        about that line- i can’t help but wonder about

        secret (ccret)
        to cease
        to seek?
        and the literal 2 c’s below look quickly down
        (your quest to cease) -the c in scant
        -the c in chest

        that’s what i mean about the architecture… the poem is designed/crafted so “nothing about it will be accidental” it seems like hundreds of places fit the poem, but if you start looking at the design of words- there is something fishy. like addle up your creek.
        (addle means confusion)

        (you get that because there is no p lace
        and no p addle)

        just another way to look at stuff… best, leigh.

    • Hi Leigh,
      My solve involves layers. All of this is just my opinion. Each layer gets you to the same place. The surface (most common) meanings must fit as well as alternative meanings. Not either/or meaning – but BOTH meanings. I believe there are more layers than that as well.

    • hey thanks guys, for talking.

      the only reason i don’t think it’s circular, and can’t start anywhere- is because f said you have to start at the beginning. So that, for me, is As or Begin it where. For me, right now, it is “where.” Although I have played with both for years and years… and believe me, I’m not discounting ANYTHING!! I feel like i’ve tried everything.

      “the end is ever drawing nigh” for me is as JBL says- a good line to discuss layers. For me – just these past couple of weeks- the end is literally part of ever, and part of drawing, but not the very end- all stemming from “where.” still working on the nigh part. although it seems feasible it just means left.

      I’m wondering if anyone has found “enter” as their starting point- and formed a sort of bridge? Enter as in Begin?

      JDA- “the clues are in stanza’s 2,3 and 4; and that the hints are in stanza’s 5,6 and 1.” these past weeks I’m thinking that too… but I go back and forth. If the clues are in those stanzas, I think they reach all 6- but that’s just me. remember, I’m always drawing all over the poem. and i need a new eraser.

      best to all!! keep talking?

      • Leigh: I’m with you. No circles. Linear. Searchers are fixating too much on the T.S. Eliot “Little Gidding” poem stanza that Forrest quoted. If Forrest had never mentioned that poem, what is it about Forrest’s poem that would make people think circles?

        • Zap,

          It’s taken me a long time to get to where I am today and I have no idea if I am right or wrong, but here’s what I have found.

          Going thru the poem and following the directions yields a specific location on a map. Not a location so precise it can be used to actually go get the treasure, but sufficient to start the next phase if you will, of the hunt. So I go back to the beginning and thru the poem again, but this time in the area identified in phase one. Kind of like driving to an unfamiliar town in a place you’ve never been to before. First you have to get to the town, and then find the hotel.

          What I’m not sure of is whether the “correct solve” includes another run through the poem to find the hotel right room to stretch the analogy a little farther………a third “circle” that is.

          Take care……… pinatubocharlie

          So when someone like JDA mentions circles, I understand where he/they are coming from. Instead of circles, I like to think of them more as layers, but circles work too.

          • Ever smaller circles possible – Like the spinning spiral at the beginning of “Twilight Zone” – maybe – JDA

          • Hey there JDA,

            Though there were many, Twilight Zone was one of my favorite TV shows when growing up, but I had forgotten about that spiral. And I agree, that’s another good analogy IMO.

            pinatubocharlie

          • JDA – now that you mention Twilight Zone, I can’t get that theme music out of my head!

          • Covert One – EERIE – Isn’t it???

            P.Charlie – Mine too, seen probably all, but love it when there is a marathon – watch ’em anyway. As A kid, I always wanted to try to figure out why “It wouldn’t work” – Favorite is the aliens that come to “Save the world” yet their “book” was a “Cookbook” on how to prepare the best “human” dishes – 🙂
            JDA

          • Boy, there’s some food for thought. Sorry, JDA, couldn’t resist.

            The episode that sticks in my head is the one about the guy who had an awful voice and couldn’t sing and found himself on a planet where beautiful voices were the norm and they all sung wonderfully……to our human ears, but to them BORING, no one stood out.

            Then they heard him “singing” one day and he was an instant star and they cherished him. Or something like that.

            It’s been a long time, so my memory may not be 100%.

            pinatubocharlie

          • Same theme, but the one where “Normal” was to have a pig’s snout, and beautiful people were considered ugly and needed to have operations.

            I guess that this has something to do with the architecture of the poem, and how it may not be what it seems to be. JDA

          • I like the one where Andy Devine is a liar, and the aliens think he is the most accomplished person on Earth ’cause they don’t know what lies are. His harmonica saves him because they can’t stand the sound.

        • Zap – How about linear and circular facets within the correct solve? I think one could also say there are linear and circular facets on one level as well as some additional circular facets on another level; of course, don’t ask me to explain that but I certainly believe that to be accurate. IMO

        • Hey Zap… Forrest’s poem might not lead you directly to “think circles”. But, he sure mentions pie – a lot. He really really liked fried pineapple pie. And yo yos. And marbles. How about when he used a lariat to lasso Cody? Circling the gypsy wagons? I can think of dozens of times he talks about a circle. Quarters and gold coins and Sacajawea dollars. Kivas. His signature, if you are lucky enough to have a signed copy of one of his books, he signs with a little circular flourish. When he got lost with Donnie in the Gallatin – wandering in circles most likely! We could most likely find as many “out and backs” in the book as circular paths, I admit. But, when you think of it… the book really does seem to have quite a number of references to circles/circular objects/circular paths. Just another abernomalation to think about. As if our brains aren’t full enough.

          • Sandy – you noted he mentioned pie a lot.

            π = 3.14159265359

            Sorry, I had to….seems like we keep talking in “circles”….

          • Hi Sandy — yes, circles certainly abound in the books, Scrapbooks, etc. And the double-pis of pineapple pie should certainly raise an eyebrow. The trouble is, you can pick other simple geometric shapes and find support for them as well. (I leave it as an exercise to tally the instances of/references to squares. I’ll start you off: what kind of knots? $17 per what? What’s brown and ends every chapter but one in TTOTC?)

            So in the end I’m disinclined to read the poem in a circular fashion. I think the clues are point-to-point, with a beginning point that is distinct from the end point. I don’t think the route traces a straight line by any stretch, but I don’t believe it ever crosses itself; if it did, it would mean that some of the clues could be skipped or short-circuited, and we know what Fenn has to say about that.

          • For a four I yearn earnestly to follow after one = 3.141592653.

            I made up that sentence in high school to remember pi to 10 places. lol.

          • Zap- it crosses itself! yes…

            do you have an “enter”y point?

            where it crosses, it says- “heavy lies chest”… or at least one of the crosses… (not religious crosses- but literally a big X – i’m talking about the left to right line of the X??

      • Leigh, don’t overlook the word ever in the line – the end is ever drawing nigh. For me, that word alone led me down a rabbit hole. Ever = always and/or at any time. Keep looking for layers. I have more than 3 layers that lead to the same place.
        Zap, I am always amazed by your ability to find the aberrations and that they fit into your area. They fit mine as well and yet you are in MT and I am in WY. Your confidence and your knowledge (correct spelling intended because of your intelligence) keeps me paying close attention. I will not leave my area for MT. If I am not correct, I won’t be able to adjust to a new location because I will never be able to clear my mind enough to think about a new place. I have confidence in my solve, but others’ confidence keeps certainty out of my grasp. I appreciate your posts and analysis.

        • Hi JBL – I, too, am of the opinion that the “ever” is a telling element on that line. My interpretation is that once you “put in below the home of Brown,” your journey from that point forward will be continually bringing you closer to the chest. That Forrest included this line at all seems to suggest more about the journey *up to* this point, as opposed to what is yet to come. Perhaps prior to hoB, the searcher’s path following the clues might not have been continuously bringing him or her closer to the chest — at least as the osprey flies.

          “Zap, I am always amazed by your ability to find the aberrations and that they fit into your area.”

          Thanks — I guess to me aberrations are like blazes: they’re something that stands out. For instance, I don’t think it’s an accident that the folder here on Dal’s is called Abberrations with two B’s. A bit of amusing demonstrative spelling akin to “knowlege.” However, I’m ever mindful that if one is sufficiently clever or imaginative and goes searching for patterns in the noise, he/she is sure to find them. We are genetically wired to spot the anomalies because it is (or at least was) a Darwinian survival skill. So it’s not surprising that my aberrations take me to Montana while yours take you to Wyoming. It’s just another way of saying that some of these supposed “hints” are not terribly helpful.

          “I will not leave my area for MT. If I am not correct, I won’t be able to adjust to a new location because I will never be able to clear my mind enough to think about a new place.”

          Well if it’s any consolation, we share this flaw, and maybe with a little luck one of us is right. 🙂

        • do you mean DON’T ” overlook the word ever in the line ” – or don’t look it over that much? in my mind, now, it’s just as important as everything else.

      • With regard to stanzas and hints/clues/information contained therein, I am forced to keep things simple and just treat anything I deem important as information relevant to understanding the hidden meaning in the poem. I don’t think in terms of hints and/or clues – it’s all just information so my simple mind has at least a chance of comprehending it, and I believe all stanzas contain relevant information.

        Regarding circular versus straight-line, I believe there’s a bit of each. Zap mentioned Little Gidding, and what I find most intriguing about F’s (mis)quote of Eliot’s work is the addition of words. IMO, the full meaning hidden in the poem is not circular, meaning you don’t physically end where you began due to this comment:

        At ~7:50 mark, Forrest is asked, “If you follow the poem precisely, will you find yourself switching back… making a loop?”
        Forrest’s answer: “This gal’s dangerous. Would I find myself switching back? I think I can say no to that without giving away too much of the clue. Nobody is going to happen on that treasure chest. You’re going to have to figure out the clues in the poem and go to it….”

        I do, however, believe F’s Eliot quote may be a metaphoric overture to a similarity between the point the poem identifies as the beginning and the point identified as the end, and I believe this is the reason F has frequently reminded us of the importance of knowing where to begin (think canasta). Is it additional information that can aid in confirming correct beginning and end points? We can only guess.

        Just some thoughts.
        Joe

  44. Words are just words to an ordinary reader.

    My solution. J I M H O

    As I am alone here,
    Lost in my thoughts,
    I can sharpen my senses,
    And give words of my own.

    I want to have tea with Forrest
    And remember an abandoned valley.
    Not so far to leave behind,
    Like a pond full of rocks.

    We were brave and stubborn,
    But we’ll get together at the end.
    Even against the tide,
    We face avalanches and floods.

    To find wisdom,
    With humility we lower our heads.
    I’ve never been an easygoing,
    I just picked what I planted.

    So why am I here?
    Taking away what was not mine?
    The answer I know well
    I’m tired, but I wanted that too.

    If I heard and listened well,
    The gold was worth the effort.
    If I was wise and half crazy,
    Now I have my reward.

    • In portuguese:

      Como estou sozinho aqui,
      Perdido em meus pensamentos,
      Posso aguçar os meus sentidos,
      E dar palavras da minha empreita.

      Quero tomar um chá com Forrest
      E lembrar dum vale abandonado.
      Não tão longe pra deixar pra tráz
      Como uma lagoa cheia de pedras.

      Fomos bravos e teimosos,
      Mas chegaremos juntos ao final.
      Mesmo contra a maré,
      Enfrentamos avalanches e inundações.

      Para encontrarmos sabedoria,
      Com humildade abaixamos a cabeça.
      Nunca fui um displicente,
      Apenas colhi o que plantei.

      Então por que estou aqui
      Levando embora o que não foi meu?
      A resposta eu sei bem
      Estou cansado, mas quiz isso demais.

      Se eu ouvi e escutei bem,
      O ouro valeu a pena esforçar-me.
      Se fui sábio e meio louco,
      Agora tenho a minha recompensa.

  45. RickinFlorida, what are you referring to by: does everyone know that in YNP there is a new and old part of the Park?

    Aaron

    • Hi Aaron,

      my home computer crashed about 9 months ago so some of the things I say are more from memory. I will look to see if I can find the article again however the best that I recall the article said something like…Cascade Corner is the newest part geologically speaking.
      It has always been a part of the Park but there are no roads. If a person wants to see that part of the Park then it must be hiked. Seems to me there are 21 or 23 waterfalls in this part of the Park.
      It is becoming more popular today with more folks hiking then back when Mr f spent time in the Park. With this being said…it makes me believe that the line in the book TTOTC where Mr f says… (paraphasing) That place is mine and mine alone how dare they go there…could be referencing a place like Cascade Corner where the tourists does not know much about the place but are becoming more aware of it.
      All of this is IMO of course. I will look for the article.

      • Yes there are a number of waterfalls there and from research of that area I think it would be a nice place to visit. The problem I found there though is there are not many roads around making hikes longer than a few miles. I do like that area and if you can find a spot that the clues fit into and that fits in with ATF comments there then it would be worth looking into.

        All that being said, the treasures new could still be referring to other areas of the park. Since FF was a child more more fishing areas, and tourist attractions have been explored making them new to the public in his eyes.

        Many people believe that based on the comments of one or two people that the chest cannot be in the park and I disagree. FF picked a place that was special to him and stuck to that place. He didn’t pick it based on the law of the land. Also, the Denver museum, that he would have left his car in as the last clue, is located in a park. Maybe telling us to go to a park?

        • Aaron,

          IMO…..I came up with a different understanding of the “final” clue.

          “The final clue, he said, would be where they found his car: in the parking lot of the Denver Museum of Nature and Science.”

          I *think* the clue is WHERE in the parking lot he wants us to believe he parked his car, and why where he parked it is important.

          • Without knowing where and why he would have parked it where he did how would come to that conclusion?

          • Yeah, KK I’m interested in your theory…I live in Denver, and know the parking lot…and underground garage well, so I’m curious what you’re getting at here…over to the satellite maps I guess for now.

          • KK,

            Forrest’s idea was to leave the chest to its special place and then leave the car and the poem far from its secret place.

            Then he could catch a bus to return.

            He would travel anonymously to his final resting place.

            He was almost 60 years old and was very strong yet to face this journey.

            IMO Just that.

          • KK,

            The final clue IMO is not in Denver and unrelated to the parking lot at the museum.

            Denver is not in the RMs its on a high desert nestled up against foothills.

            I’m just a mere longtime resident.

          • Aaron, Tbug, McB, CharlieM,

            As stated, this is only my opinion. Whether he “actually” parked his car there and on what date, in reality doesn’t matter- what matters is what he wants us to “take away” as a final clue. I know there will be those that disagree, but for others, this will be a strong link for their solve.

            Look at a satellite picture of the parking lot. What makes one specific area of the parking lot different from any other area? I’m sure you can see (literally) one special area, and who that relates to. Now, figure out why he might be important to a solve- I’ll leave that to you. It will be important to some, and not to others, & might take a little research.

            CharlieM- It isn’t about the TC being in Denver- at all. It is just a place he is using to make a point or give direction to.

          • “If you’ve been wise and found the Blazer”.

            It’s parked in a museum parking lot.

          • Pardal,

            Here in Brazil we have the GM Blazer too!

            There’s one in front of my neighbor’s garage!

            I think I’m going to take a look in his basement tomorrow!

            hahahaha : )

          • McB,

            See my reply further down on this page to Aaron. I responded to the same question he asked.

            What did you see that is in some parking lots that might require some people to park in a specific parking space? (not related to disability)? What might a specific parking space/area have to do with a famous person? Find the link between the two, and you might understand how that clue can point to a location.

          • Hmm, I bet that fountain halts from time to time but it’s probably not warm by the looks on those kids faces 🙂

            Maybe it means he parked near a geyser. Thanks for sharing!

        • Aaron- not a park, a museum. the one in Cody, not Denver.
          Cody is where he has gone alone and with treasures bold.

          i think.

          • That is a plausible theory db. Is there anything else that makes you think this?

          • DB,

            I also thought about that possibility.

            I even scoured what I could about the museum with photos, street view, ge, materials, etc.

            I even wondered if the statue of BB on horseback would not be Blaze.

  46. True confession, I only glanced at the thread above, so this may have been discussed ad nauseam already, but I think the “main story” for the solution resides in this thread. Some of us have been chatting in other threads here at hoD, but it is my opinion that picking up Indulgence relies on solving the poem – figuring out how the poem fits together so that it reveals all.

    I have been going over the poem, turning it over in my mind, and I think I am starting to see what the architect is using for materials.

    Allow me to use a phrase that I think will help us all see what I think Mr. Fenn wants us to see. That phrase is: “jump to a conclusion”. I know that none of us on this blog have ever done that, but never-the-less, it is a good phrase to describe another concept – which we’ll get to in a moment. When jumping to a conclusion, a person “skips ahead”, often missing information that would have resulted in a correct deduction. Thus, in skipping ahead, or jumping to a conclusion, we miss the boat entirely. All the while we have never moved – even though we’ve jumped and skipped.

    So, how far is “too far to walk”? This is the phrase in the poem that has me really wondering. What if Mr. Fenn is wanting us to take a “leap of faith” to get to the next clue? As I have been stating lately, I suspect that some of the clues are of this sort. He is using “simpler words” to try to get us to see “more complex ideas”. He’s using 2x4s to build a wall, 2x10s for joists and stringers for the roof. Eventually, we end of with a mansion. But a 2×4 is not a mansion.

    I’m still working on it, the poem that is, and I am of the opinion, that there is more than meets the eye in the poem. Unfortunately, for me, I haven’t been able to crack this nut. I have not been able to get wwwh to be similar to a 2×4, or hoB to some how equate to a 2×10, etc. I don’t yet see how all the parts go together. But I think they do.

    For those old enough, it’s kind of like spilling all the Lincoln Logs on to the floor, and then putting something together with them. Maybe better said, it’s like a Lego “kit” without the instructions. It was designed with a very particular result in mind, but the parts could be used to build other things.

    In part, we have to figure out what Mr. Fenn is telling us AND how to apply that information so we can marry the clues to a map. I am uncertain of how many “stages or layers” there are to this poem, but I will not be surprised to find that the are three or more. And until a searcher has resolved them all, we ought to stay home and play Canasta.

    Maybe I am over thinking it, but what I am trying to do, is break it down into it’s basic components and then reconstruct what Mr. Fenn had in mind. Maybe this will help someone else with their search. I’m not sure at this point if I have anything more to add, but ask away if you want to pick my brain.

    • Hi McB: Forrest has said it both ways — place and places. Example: “The clues did not exist when I was a kid, but most of the PLACES the clues refer to did. I think THEY might exist in 100 years but the geography will probably change before we reach the next millenia (sic).”

      I think context and scale matter when deciding whether to use place singular vs. places plural. Wyoming is a place; but there are lots of places in Wyoming.

      • Exactly, Zap

        The clues indicate a place.

        The first ones: a general place

        The latter: a specific point “within” of that general place.

        It is not a clue in NM, another in CO, others in WY and the finals in MT or Canada.

        I said that because there are researchers walking hundreds of miles for each clue.

        That does not give any accuracy.

        IMO – after all, nobody’s got the TC yet … I guess.

        • What is it that makes you believe the first clues refer to a general place? Many believe that the first stanza does that.

          • Aaron,

            The first stanza gives no clue or clue.

            She says with “what” and “where” he was.

            In addition to “can keep” being a subjective indication.

            New and Old many interpret as New Mexico.

            I’d rather think you talk about something that happened “old and recently.”

            More:

            If clue 1 were: The Headquarters of the State

            Clue 2: The Headquarters of the City

            Clue 3: The Headquarters of the Village

            Clue 4: The Beginning of the Street

            Clue 5: the house number

            Clue 6: The place of the house where people dine together. (table)

            You have found clue 6 but “no” has left clues 1 to 5.

            All are contiguous and yet converge in “a” specific location.

            That’s why I say it’s all connected to a single specific location.

            If I told you what my WWWH would be, you’d understand. It’s small, but it’s far away. (I no know say in english)

            IMO, of course.

    • Swwot,
      My only concern with the idea of a “leap of faith” regarding any clue, loses the idea of “Follow Precisely” { be it stomping or directions / instructions etc. }

      The idea of a leap of faith brings in a force fitting of thought to work with something unknown or not exactly sure of. Basically, making things up so we can simply move on… is that not the basis of; target fixated-?-and we start to manufacture clues to fill in the missing Lincoln log, that rolled under the sofa and is simply out of sight?

      • Seeker, and others,

        If I say a cognitive leap, is that better understood? I am not certain. (And I am not trying to be punny.) I am trying to convey that we have to “jump” from the physical to the meta-physical, and perhaps back again to follow Mr. Fenn’s train of thought. I think there are mental gymnastics involved – and for some it may be a larger leap than for others. Is it being brave and in the woods, or someplace for those not meek? I can say for certainty that I am being stretched in this exercise. All of that to say, no, I don’t think it is working with the unknown, but rather revealing what has been hidden.

  47. Swwot;

    I like your analogy of using Lincoln Logs or Lego’s. In each case, either the logs, or the blocks can fit together in only one fashion – Male into female. It is my belief that too many people here on the blog, or in the chase are flipping the Lego Blocks over, and trying to fit male to male or female to female – It just doesn’t work. Take the time to lay all of the pieces out – right side up (Kinda like turning all of the pieces to a picture puzzle right-side-up.) Doing this makes solving the puzzle, or building something out of lego blocks SOOO much easier. Easier said than done though. Difficult, but not impossible – JMO – JDA

    • So, how far is “too far to walk”?

      It may just be simple or an “impossible” to answer question.

      I go by the ATF comment of: If you are walking long distances you are walking too far. In the line from the poem, it is “too far’ that we are looking at. Not far, but too far, that is what we walk. With the ATF, he defines “too far” as being a ‘long distance”.
      We know we have “to walk”, just how far? Well, the ATF tells us. Also, It may just be as simple as looking at the word too, or to. Replacing “to’ with 2, would be like replacing “too” with 2 o.
      Not far but 20 far to walk. Figure in two trips, you have 5 one way. That would be a “long distance”, and fits the poem, and the ATF. (and JDA, if you ask him).
      If we read that as a distance of not to walk, (being a long distance), that does not fit what f has put out there. Of course, it’s up for debate. Walking long distance may be “too far”, and, if it’s too far to walk, what else is there. To drive? Maybe, but we are not asked what it is we need “to drive”, we are asked what it is we need “to walk”.
      The problem comes when a searcher puts in his/her two cents to the thought. Not far but too far to walk means it’s too far to walk, which means another mode of transportation. Drive, bus, fly, boat, whatever. The deciding factor is what f defines it as, and he does that with the ATF.
      Again, the only thing we know is what f tells us, not what we may come up with, but his words. He may not give the correct answer to that question and we may never know, until it’s found, but he does “hint” to the answer by his ATF, and that means we have quite a ways to walk. It’s like answering what “very close proximity” is. In his SB about ‘Pickles”, he says Pickles doesn’t like being in close proximity of the other lures. He gives Pickles length, and in the picture, you can see that the lures are that length away. So we have our definition and our length. (sorry, don’t have the exact info in front of me). To f, very close proximity only means a couple inches. So when he says that a human trail is not within very close proximity to the chest, means nothing. Because, to f, it only means a couple inches. That is how to use the ATF’s to answer a possible unknown question. Seeker’s “checks and balances if you will. It’s just it can’t be argued against because it is f’s words.
      So swwot, I kind of see what you are saying. Some things we just do not have the info to answer correctly. An almost “leap of faith” has to be taken, but in that sense, I don’t see f writing the poem that way. I believe that f does give the answers to what we need to know. Even the things that he has not given the info for to solve correctly or at all, he will provide in some manner the ability to answer those questions. Those answers to some of those questions only being available once someone has found the chest and can interpret what f defines the situation as. (The correct answers to a hint or clue that we are all trying to find). Not far but too far to walk cannot be answered, only defined by f. To find how far it is “to walk”, we need to find the chest. He has said as much with some of the clues as well.

      • Charlie;

        A very nice summation. Regarding “Too far to walk” – you forgot
        In the preface to the book “Too Far To Walk”, Forrest describes a float down the Madison River, a float of about 10 miles, and he describes this as now “Too Far to Walk”. I know many discount this, but it IS a statement by Forrest where he does say that NOW 10 miles is “Too Far To Walk.” It is my opinion, and I could well be wrong, that Forrest titled his second book TFTW for a reason, and that he wrote the preface with a purpose. What was that purpose? – to limit distances that people were traveling between wwwh and hoB. I believe that Forrest saw that too many people were traveling WAY too far, and he decided to rein them in a bit.
        Just my opinion – JDA

        • I agree with the fact that he named it TFTW for a reason. With all the options for the naming of that book he chose TFTW and for good reason. Some say this is the third clue and if this is the people that got the first two clues just went too far.

        • JDA,

          I’m a bit surprised people are still trying to CAPITALIZE from the clue of f’s second ‘Chase’ book considering… he didn’t! (smiley face)

          • McB- sorry, time to ‘hoe the rows’ here in the States.

            making a Brief comparison of forrest’s last three books should About Cover it. enjoy and good luck!

        • I have been torn on the too far to walk clue. Many think it means from WWWH to the Chest is somewhere within the ten miles … Something Like WWWH < Not Far <Hidey Spot < Too Far to Walk…

          Who else has interpreted it to me to be:
          WWWH <Too Far to Walk < Hidey Space < Not Far ?

      • Charlie, thanx for elucidating much of what I have been pondering.

        If I may, this poem is somewhat like a Rubik’s Cube as well – when you work it just right, it all falls into place. That will be the “Aha!” moment, and you’ll wonder what took you so long.

        Still twisting away,

    • Thanx JDA.

      As you all can see from my examples, I tend to think in “3D”, as that is how I have been wired. In my mind I can see how all the parts of a small block Chevy work together in harmony. When working on vehicles, I don’t have to see with my eyes where my hands are working because of this ability to “see in 3D”. I don’t know how it can help me find Indulgence, it’s just a quirk of mine.

  48. McB, I get it though for this to work then the first clue BIWWWH would need to be a rather large area correct? Perhaps multiple locations where WWH encompassed into one larger location like a state, park, or national forrest. Or just one large area that more figuratively describes Fenn’s idea of WWWH.

      • Isn’t that second hand? – Forrest once told a searcher who suggested that the entire YNP could be the place where warm waters halt that he was wrong… This is not a quote, and it is Dal reporting that – a searcher etc. How can you say, ” Except that Forrest has said that WWWH is not a broad area, but rather a specific spot.”? JDA

      • Hi JDA: I think we can both agree that Dal is a trustworthy source, and the way Dal worded his reply to dollarbill suggested that he (Dal) at the time believed the account (whether he got that account from the unnamed searcher or from Forrest directly — it’s not clear which). Nevertheless, Dal would probably advise that the statement, while possibly perfectly legitimate, should not be the sole factor in killing a solution, and that it is safer to keep an open mind.

        • Zap. I am sure that Dal is honest and trustworthy – That is not the question. My point is that you are saying that (as fact) that Forrest said something that we have no proof of.
          Even if Dal comes forward and says – “Yes, Forrest said those words to me.” – It is still second hand information that you are saying is directly from Forrest’s mouth – which is not factual. Not picking a fight – Just presenting things the way I see them – JDA

        • Well, I’ll just say it’s as reliable a fact to me as Cynthia’s statement that none of the clues are associated with structures. Yes, in both cases it’s second-hand information, so they don’t rise to the importance of Forrest’s typed words or public utterances. Then again, Forrest occasionally makes mistakes when he speaks (as do we all), so you can’t take every word he says as gospel (e.g. he has given different counts for the number of gold coins in the chest, and once said the chest was buried when he didn’t mean to).

          • I understand your point Zap. Good luck in your search. Isn’t the chase fascinating?. We can each interpret how important different aspects of the “chase” is or isn’t. JDA

    • Aaron,

      Quite wide not.

      WWWH is small, but:

      WWWH covers the CD despite being the TFTW.

      * I can not translate what I mean. <: (

      WWWH is 20 miles from the CD, but it is "TOGETHER" to the CD, just above the HoB.

      I hope you understood.

      IMO – no facts, yet…

  49. Thanks for sharing. It would be interesting to know if Dal got that info from Forrest, the searcher, or both in the form of a Q&A.

  50. Is it possible that some of the clues on here could not be on the map while the final resting place of the treasure is on the map?

    • Justin,

      Yes, it is possible.

      Some clues may need BOTG for confirmation.

      But with much research it is possible to anticipate some movements that lead us to these particular clues.

      It depends on your effort.

      In my opinion.

      • My wife and I created a poem with clues for an easter treasure hunt for our kids. This was good practice for how one would go about creating a treasure hunt and I recommend doing it. Not for hiding something but just to see how one might go about creating clues and using locations.

        We gave our kids a park map. The starting point was listed on the map and then we had too far to walk with another spot on the map. The rest of the clues were walked out though one was on the map as well, a bridge that went over the creek. I mentioned it here before but thought I would bring it up again in response to this and since we have so many newbies lately. It was fun and enlightening.

      • McB do you have the ttotc& tftw books yet these will help you a lot & read them like Forrest said!!! Clint JMO

        • Clint,

          I’m from Brazil.

          And translating the books, in addition to exhaustive, would not be productive because I would lose the sense of many sentences / words.

          When I have any questions about FF stories I ask our friends to help me on the blog.

          Thanks : )

  51. KK, I’m guessing you are referring to under a pine tree. The other are unique is the parking garage. Also, the museum itself, and parking lot, is inside of a park. The only things that can be gathered from these details is the chest is parked under a pine tree, underground, or in a park.

    • No Aaron, not a pine tree…….what is in some parking lots that require some people to park in a specific spot? Not referring to disability. Use google maps or satellite and look at the parking lot.

    • Aaron,

      If you are going with the museum parking, you might as well use the Denver Aquarium as water high and the hoB as the Molly Brown House.

      But the museum, the aquarium & Molly’s IMO will not work and out of bounds. 🙂

      • I wouldn’t use the literal parking lot but perhaps something metaphorically related to it or the near vicinity.

          • I wouldn’t be so quick to laugh when someone offers a hint, whether you agree with it or not. He who laughs last…..

          • But tell me KK,

            What do you think of this “subtle clue” of TTOTC?

            Chase = an unclosed area of land where wild animals are preserved to be hunted

          • McB,

            I think there are many subtle hints in TTOTC, and in TFTW, so I am not sure which you might be referring to.

            IMO, if we follow the poem, it leads us from point A to point B on a map until we reach the chest, with the exception of something we need to see from the Blaze that we wouldn’t notice on a map. I think it is as straightforward as FF says that it is. I think as humans, we tend to overlook that which is right in front of us, and I believe that is what is happening here. I also think we are “asking the wrong questions” per say.

            As far as the unintentional clue in TFTW, I can’t say that I am clear on that, and I am not too concerned about figuring it out. I found many useful things in that book that aided in confirmation or helped answers questions I had. Maybe one of them was the unintentional clue, maybe not.

            I know you mentioned earlier that you are leaning toward the purist side of things. I know it would be difficult and time consuming to translate a book, but I think as intelligent as you are, it would aid in your hunt. So I would encourage you to read as many stories as you can online without looking for the clues in the stories. It gives perspective. Happy Hunting!

          • You’re very right KK,

            I’m hanging on to the purist side of the poem.

            But I have a reason for that.

            My solution does not depend on anything at all from FF ATFs.

            The only thing that helped me to think my WWWH was “Tea with Olga”.

            Not that I’ve found any tips.

            I only had an “insight” as I read the story. (I find been my WWWH)

            After I completed my solution, I looked for the ATFs just to disqualify or confirm my solution.

            What I do now is still in this sense: Right or wrong in my solution.

            If I find something relevant, I share.

            FF said he worked the poem, studied and exchanged words. So I imagine that “any” thing, however small, should be evaluated. (Inclusiv the title of the book.)

            And it has no place better than here in Dal’s blog to evaluate an idea.

            “We are judges of our own science.
            Nothing is unpunished in our conscience.” – McB

            Sorry for translation errors.

          • McB,

            I follow your line of thinking as I had actually located the general area of my solve before I ever read TTOTC. I didn’t get the book in the mail until the day before my first BOTG.

            I think not having read the book enabled me to think more clearly. I also stayed off the blogs until I had a general solve, and like you have only used the blogs and ATF and Scrapbooks to confirm or refute my solution to each clue.

            Having read TTOTC & TFTW did help to change and or refine some of my clues and interpretations.

            Keep up with your insight and intuition. I have found those attributes to be very beneficial.

      • 🙂 What if it’s hidden in a diorama of the RMs in an over-5,000 ft altitude museum? Ah, darn, that’s a structure…. 😉

        • Lady V,
          You bring up a good thought… not a structure… but a display, line of thinking.
          Are the many sites all over the RM’s made by man at any given time period, that is being persevered, a structure?
          Would many consider the Medicine Wheel a structure? for example.
          Other considerations might be a dam. Example; Earth Quake lake is a section of river that was created by a land-side causing a barrier, whereas, Hebgen lake was actually dammed by man building a barrier.

          pondering and musing….

  52. The charging station for an electric car? Who knows if that was there back then though. I found a reserved spot next to handicap with a flag on it. Also a school bus drop off. You don’t think FF would block the school bus drop off with his parked car do you? Lol

    • Yes, and as I stated, IMO, it doesn’t matter whether or not it was actually available at the time FF hid his treasure…it didn’t have to be. This is just my opinion, and I haven’t really see anyone else come up with anything else. He is using that idea to point you towards a person, to point you towards an idea and place. As I stated, I know for some this information/opinion won’t matter. For others that understand (& I know there will be some), this will be confirming for them. It does take a little research.

  53. I agree, we just need to check all of the Blazers in the treasure states. If it’s abandoned and not in close proximaty to a human trail check it!

  54. All friends,

    The second stanza makes you walk and then take a direction. As if there were two exits.

    The third stanza seems to describe a place where you are standing and will have to make a “wise” decision.

    The fourth stanza says what you will find if you make the right decision (correct Blaze – there may be more than one). And Blaze seems to indicate “where” to find the chest and the rest says “how” to react to it.

    What I mean:

    The first two clues can be “de facto” larger in extent. But HoB gives you a direction that can be difficult to discern on the spot.

    It will certainly be in an unusual place throughout this WWWH extension and CD.

    So for those who have their WWWH nailed to the CD; attention to anything that gets out of tune in your area of research. It may be there that you have to be “wise” sooner than you think.

    IMO

  55. The keyword:

    I wrote this someplace a few years ago and maybe you’ll think it’s worth remembering, Imagination isn’t a technique, it’s a key. f

  56. After much reading and thinking…

    I believe that the poem and book (TTOTC) is based in simplicity-no codes, anagrams or hidden numerics, just clever turns of the phrase.

    The poem is by a wise, wily old grandfather sitting on the porch telling riddles to the grandkids.

    He makes this particular one extremely difficult so that when a ‘grandkid’ solves the riddle, he can be rightfully proud of the kid that solved the riddle.

    The ‘grandkids’ clamor for hints and helps. Granddad throws in some ‘hints’ – some helpful and some downright deceiving. It’s up to the ‘grandkids’ to figure out what to use and not use to figure out this riddle.

    I believe I have a solve that fits the above criteria and will be going into the wild to verify very shortly.

    Stand by for results…

  57. Hi all;

    I have been analyzing the Poem’s Architecture (again) and have come to the conclusion that I need to reformat it from how I had been reading it. For about one year I believed that nine sentences = nine clues. Then about a year ago (or so) I decided that the clues are in stanzas 2,3 and 4 and that the hints were in stanzas 1,5 and 6

    I now believe that stanza #1 is a Preamble or Prelude and that the 9 clues are in the remaining stanzas. Here is how I now break it down:
    The poem broken down with a prelude plus 9 clues
    Prelude
    As I have gone alone in there
    And with my treasures bold,
    I can keep my secret where,
    And hint of riches new and old.
    Clue #1 Begin it where warm waters halt
    And take it in the canyon down,
    Not far, but too far to walk.
    Clue #2
    Put in below the home of Brown.
    Clue #3 From there it’s no place for the meek,
    The end is ever drawing nigh;
    Clue #4
    There’ll be no paddle up your creek,
    Just heavy loads and water high.
    Clue #5 If you’ve been wise and found the blaze,
    Look quickly down, your quest to cease,
    But tarry scant with marvel gaze,
    Just take the chest and go in peace.
    Clue #6 So why is it that I must go
    And leave my trove for all to seek?
    Clue #7
    The answers I already know,
    I’ve done it tired, and now I’m weak.
    Clue #8 So hear me all and listen good,
    Your effort will be worth the cold.
    Clue #9
    If you are brave and in the wood
    I give you title to the gold.

    This may not work for some, but it now works best for my solve – Just how I now see it – JDA

    • JDA,

      I disagree with your clue theory. Here’s what I think they are:

      As I have gone alone in there
      And with my treasures bold,
      I can keep my secret where,
      And hint of riches new and old.
      Clue #1 Begin it where warm waters halt
      And take it in the canyon down,
      Clue #2 Not far, but too far to walk.
      Clue #3 Put in below the home of Brown.
      Clue #4 From there it’s no place for the meek,
      Clue #5 The end is ever drawing nigh;
      Clue #6 There’ll be no paddle up your creek,
      Just heavy loads and water high.
      Clue #7 If you’ve been wise and found the blaze,
      Look quickly down, your quest to cease,
      But tarry scant with marvel gaze,
      Just take the chest and go in peace.
      So why is it that I must go
      And leave my trove for all to seek?
      The answers I already know,
      I’ve done it tired, and now I’m weak.
      So hear me all and listen good,
      Clue #8 Your effort will be worth the cold.
      Clue #9 If you are brave and in the wood
      I give you title to the gold.

      Just my point of view. Am I right? Who knows

  58. That nope, nope question is something to think about.

    If in 500 years all a person has is the poem, and no back story: they don’t know “in the rocky imountains north of santa fe” or that there are 9 clues etc. Could a person reasonably just use the words in the poem and find your treasure chest?

    Thank you ~Nope
    Thank you Nope. Nope. f

    A backstory, background story, back-story, or background is a set of events invented for a plot, presented as preceding and leading up to that plot. It is a literary device of a narrative history all chronologically earlier than the narrative of primary interest.

    • FD,

      I agree but to ponder is, Yes, yes the poem married to a map, who in there right mind are going to use just the words in the poem, especially to find wwwh & hoB?

      I always thought the question from Nope, silly at best.

    • FD: without the additional information that the treasure is hidden somewhere in the mountains north of Santa Fe, WWWH may no longer be a unique spot on the planet.

    • Fun,
      I read your post to JDA below…
      In regards to the backstory you said; It is a literary device of a narrative history all chronologically earlier than the narrative of primary interest.

      While true to an extent… The plot itself has the critical information needed, right? That idea can come much later in ‘story form.’
      The thing that sparked a thought after reading your post was fenn comment;
      Hints in the book are not ‘deliberately placed’ to aid a searcher.
      We both know many have yacked about this comment in many different ways and ideas, but I now wonder if it might be our job to place / relate the ‘stories’ chronologically?

      • Seeker;

        When you say: “our job to place / relate the ‘stories’ chronologically?” are you referring to only TToTC or do you mean the stories in all three books?

        In TToTC there are stories that go from childhood to Forrest in Viet Nam – then to “Gallery Stories” – then Flywater – kinda a summery.

        The stories “SEEM” to be in chronological order already. Are you saying that this “order” from childhood to adulthood has a hidden meaning as relates to time? Just wondering – JDA

  59. Good Morning All;

    A couple of new thoughts on the Architecture of the poem.

    Much has been said about how stanzas 2,3 and 4 are the clues, and that 1, 5 and 6
    are hints.

    I have recently said that I now think that stanza #1 is a prelude or preamble to the poem, and that the clues are in the five remaining stanzas – in order 2 – 5.

    Stanzas 2 through 4 start with “Begin” and end with “Cease” (peace) – where one would expect that the chest had been found – but what if it isn’t at this point?

    Stanza #5 asks a question, and gives an answer. Stanza #6 seems to give a message of some kind.

    What if this is truly by design?

    Doesn’t the poem say, “The end is EVER drawing nigh…”? So you reach one END at the end of Stanza #4, and (in a way) start again at stanza #6 – ending at the end of stanza #6 where you are given title to the gold.

    So, stanza #5 mentions “Go” and “Leave” and answers “Tired” and “Weak” – So, logically, Go and Tired might be linked, and Leave and weak might be linked.

    Figure out what must go tired, and leave weak, and you just might get title to the gold.

    Possible? Who knows, but that is how it is working out for me – Just something to chew on – Any comments? – JDA

      • Maybe you meant 2-6.
        You need a do over or just go with this:
        Stanzas 2, 3 and 4 hold all the clues and maybe some hints, and stanzas 1, 5 and 6 hold hints.
        I’ve had this lineup since early 2016 and will NEVER change it.
        Simple, logical architecture IMO.

        • I still see 5 and 6 as clues – along with 2,3 and 4. For me, 5 and 6 add the finishing details, or a second END – If you will – Just how I see it – JDA

    • JDA, I get lost with things others see in stanzas 5 and 6 that they think can help solve the clues. So, I won’t say much about that except one observation.

      I’ve seen some posts from you that take two or three word snippets and turn, or try to turn, them into information that you think helps you with the clues. For example, in the wood and now go/leave and tired/weak.

      I’m much more of a first stanza follower so I will focus my comments more about that. I don’t remember how you saw the first stanza before you recently changed your thoughts about it to be behaving as a prelude or preamble.

      Just above your comment this morning I had posted the nope, nope question and answer from f. I’ll let you scroll up instead of posting it again. I’m curious if you see that the poem can’t be solved if you take out all of the backstory out? Since, you are feeling the first stanza is a prelude or preamble that cuts it out of contention in the nope, nope hypothetical guidelines. The inference being that there’s something more to the first stanza then just being an introduction or backstory.

      I do see a two word combination in the first stanza that I focus on like you have in the latter stanzas.

      • FD;

        “If in 500 years all a person has is the poem, and no back story: they don’t know “in the rocky mountains north of Santa Fe” or that there are 9 clues etc. Could a person reasonably just use the words in the poem and find your treasure chest?

        Thank you ~Nope
        Thank you Nope. Nope. f

        Totally agree. One needs to know about the 8.5 miles north of Santa Fe, in the Rocky Mountains, and the 9 clues. Without these, no solution would be possible – IMO.

        So, back to stanza #1 as a prelude. “As I have gone alone in there…” tells me that later in the poem I will have to go “IN” somewhere. I do not yet know where I have to go “IN”, but I need to keep my eyes open.

        “And with my treasures bold…” Treasure”S” bold tells me that there is more than one. The chest and its contents, is probably one, but are there other treasures to be found along this quest? Learning what these additional treasures are may be valuable information. Be on the look-out for them.

        “I can keep my secret where…” I know where I have hidden my secret(s) – can you find it/them?

        “And hint of riches new and old.” Riches is plural, again a hint that the secret(s) and “Treasures” we find may be more than just Indulgence – be on the lookout. Some treasures may be related to the present, some related to the past.

        You now know what to be on the look-out for as you “Begin” your quest – a quest that will end with you gaining “Title to the gold” IF you are “wise” enough to unravel all of the riddles, and find all that is hinted at in stanza #1. Just how I read it – JDA

        • Fun, JDA,

          If we’re looking at stanza 1 only, then lets look at it as a whole first. Past tense. Someone one “did” something, idea. What is it exactly that is being, been done?

          Now the idea is the word usages… in comparison to later words used in the poem, such as treasure vs. trove and even chest, I have vs. I’ve, HORNAO
          The reason, I think we need to examine later wordings [ beside the fact fenn said all the words are deliberate ] is for their different meanings… example… treasures ‘can be’ item[s] only important or of value to one, where trove has no ownership and is of a value for the most part… they seem to be the same yet not exact.
          Riches, while can imply value, also involves knowledge, New and Old- lol- is all over the place with possible ideas.

          The point is; stanza 1’s information could be nothing more than a set up, for lack of a better term, in how the later words reading of the poem should be considered.

          So instead of treasure being a clue style thought for, lets say ‘treasure state’ it my pertain more to personal items OR treasures can also be of people/friends/family, where “I” went lone to be “with” his treasures, [two can keep a secret if one is dead, line of thinking] This thought alone changes the poem perspective to what treasures to trove mean, and all the information between those words. In theory.

          If riches relates to knowledge of new and old, does it relate to geography, the landscape of the location as past and present? Knowledge of the place, “learning” what WWH is, ideas? [ and why no one seems to know much of anything with deciphered ‘references’ or going by everything else ]
          So is stanza 1 a type of preface to the poem giving us enough information to understand what is coming later, or how to perceive that later information and the clues?

          We’re supposed to nail down clue one or just forget the whole dang thing [basically]. We’re supposed to “learn” wwwh.
          How can we accomplish that [ without tossing darts ] if we don’t understand ‘how to read the poem’?
          LOL- straightforward is great, if we know what straightforward pertains to… I personally think many, if not most, are jumping the gun and not understand how to figure out the first clue by… “all the information” in the poem… [Note; that doesn’t leave the book out of the process, this idea is only about how the poem was intended to be read as, and not so much holding clues or hints that answers a clue ].

        • JDA, you said- Totally agree. One needs to know about the 8.5 miles north of Santa Fe, in the Rocky Mountains, and the 9 clues. Without these, no solution would be possible – IMO.

          I wouldn’t say no solution would be possible if we don’t know about the 8.5 miles north of Santa Fe.

          I also think that the 3 things you listed as backstory aren’t the only sources of backstory we need to contend with in the nope, nope question.

    • JDA, interesting analysis. I have been working on tired and weak correlating with new and old, but had a thought about your analysis.

      Maybe bed? I’d go to bed if I was tired and leave it weak because I haven’t had breakfast yet. Only think I can think of that might fit.

      • Aaron;

        If you are tired, yes, you go to bed, or lie down – which is a “Lower” elevation than when you are standing – So, Go – Tired could mean go to a lower elevation – I think. Leave weak. Weak can mean “watered down” – Like a “weak” drink can mean a watered down drink. So Leave weak could mean a place that is watery. – So, “Go to a place that is lower in elevation, and is watery – maybe fed by a weak little stream or rivulet. ”

        Possibilities – Who knows? – Not me, I am still trying to make sense of it – JDA

        • JDA, watered down could be the case but the problem I have with it is that it doesn’t stick to the theme of lying down or going to bed because of being tired. It just makes more sense to me that if we are talking about a human body being tired that we should stick to that theme, instead of talking about a drink. Just a thought, not that it is a correct one.

          • Aaron;

            I departed from the person laying down. I gave it another interpretation – going lower in elevation – ( just as you lower your elevation when you lie down) – but I took it as a general statement not related to a person laying down. In general – Go to a lower elevation – go to a watery place – possibly fed by a little stream or rivulet idea. JDA

      • Aaron, I also think it is important to understand the theme that underlies stanza 1, 5 and perhaps 6. Keeping in mind ‘not to discount any of the words’ in the poem, and also understanding how riddles work. If we are reading this poem 500 years from now, why is it important to know that he got tired and weak the day he hid the treasure???

        He is talking about something else imo, do you see what I see?

        • Interesting thread here. Some thoughts on stanza 1 & 5.
          Stanza 1
          1 …. Are the ’Treasures Bold’ intrinsic or extrinsic? Were the treasures there before he got there (environmental) or were they things he brought in? And here we fork again… if carried in, were they intrinsic to his being … his brains, talents, memories, etc. Or extrinsic … the 10” brass box of trinkets he lugged in.
          2…. Does it matter to the searcher what ‘with my treasures’ means? Can we discard it?

          Stanza 5
          1 …. “must go”? …. as they say, the only ‘must’ is Death & Taxes. With death pending, what “must’ was ff’s motive? A debt to be paid? Not taxes of course, but a personal debt, a ’must-pay’ debt of honor or love or game. Only he (& maybe Peggy… more later) know the answer, and like the two omegas, I doubt he will ever tell; so this stanza probably has a different message, possibly: Peace comes when debts are paid.
          Consider the lessons imparted at the end of TTOTC (pg145) and the lifetime of making rules for self. IMO, its in the ‘tired & weak’ comment that tells. Getting personal debt loads off your back to RIP.
          At the end of years, we let go of our unfinished dreams, but the unpaid debts never let go of us. It’s Thank-You time and sharing time, or even pay-back time if you’re that kind of sad-ass. I think the original poem was for Peggy. She would know the references and be consoled, and even laugh at a box of treasures… a personal joke to heal grief. But it all got changed when death was cheated and the game of life was back on.

          Just musing. OS2

          • Interesting thoughts there. Other than the 500 or 1000 year perspective while reading the poem, there is also that one scenario where he would go with the chest.

            He did mention that getting better kind of ruined that story, and he also said he had to change that last line on stanza 4 (take the chest and leave my bones or something like that). As far as we know, there is no comment on what else he would have to change in the poem.

            So, how do we make sense of -I’ve done it tired, and now I’m weak- if we knew that he took it with him?

          • OS2,

            You wrote, Does it matter to the searcher what ‘with my treasures’ means? Can we discard it?
            IMO It matters a great deal, Mr. Fenn left a piece of art for all the ages to see, if they can find it. I know I would be proud if I did what he did & its amazing. He also left treasure for us, the chest. You find the blaze, you find the art, you find the treasure. I will share this one last time. IMO The first time through the poem takes you to HIS treasure & the next time through takes you to YOUR treasure, Indulgence.
            -B

          • Birdie;

            I somewhat agree – somewhat disagree. I now believe that it only takes one trip through the poem in order to solve it – a BIG change from one year ago.

            The poem, as a whole takes you to an area that is Forrest’s treasures – The poem, as a whole also takes you to Indulgence. One trip – treasures bold and treasures new and old – JMO

          • Oz10, do you think that maybe the ‘l’ve done it tired & now l’m Weak’ statement says he’s done the work of rewriting the poem & verifying the clues which evolved over 15 years, changing a message to Peggy, to the Treasure Hunt poem? (Indecision is the key to flexibility). Indecision is tiring, going back & back & back to it to it to create the Chase version, always wondering if the whole Chase idea was a silly one for an author of many scholarly books, coming from a sophisticated social class, & who liked adventure & creativity but likewise didn’t need more aggravation in his life. seems to me there was a nagging mental debt & the ‘answer’ of adventure & peace won in the end as his health got stronger.
            In my mind ‘weak’ is a joke word meaning he knew The Chase might be a foolish adventure/ risk & would certainly cost him a bundle.
            I’m open to error. OS2

  60. “Why is it that I must go”

    We get the only present tense in this stanza, and the only question.

    I wish I knew why.

    • Meadowlark;

      Good question. If you have followed the poem, you have found the blaze and looked quickly down – hoping to find Indulgence – Your quest to cease.

      But what happens if Indulgence is not there? In the present tense, you ask yourself why wasn’t it there? “So why must I go and leave my trove…”

      Why must you leave this spot where you thought it was going to be, and seek it elsewhere? “The answers I already know…” Forrest knows why – you now have to figure it out… Maybe that is the answer to your question Aaron – Maybe??? Just a thought – JDA

    • Meadowlark,

      Why does it have to be in present tense?
      If we take in consideration the fact “as i have gone alone in there” past tense… is fenn actually leaving? or does “why I must go” to mean the original intent as; to stay and die or ‘leave’ life, if you will. Something he still may have had to do IF cancer or another disease struck… which can make stanza 5 past tense… just take the chest and leave my bones, line of thinking.

      • True, I have considered it both ways, to pass along the trove by leaving it behind, or to leave it by walking away.
        Is the word “leave” where the focus should be?
        And “the answers”, so I guess there are multiple answers to the question.
        He already knows them, do we need to know them?

  61. “Form follows function, that has been misunderstood. Form and Function should be one, joined in a spiritual union.”- Frank Lloyd Wright

    • don’t ever sit in one of the chairs he has “unioned”, if you want to see what he acted on, as opposed to what he professes.

      but man, really great looking chairs. 🙂

  62. I find it interesting that if you were writing a poem and wanted to use a certain word you would have to use certain odd phrases. I think many of the odd phrases were generated out of trying to put a specific word in the poem and you are also trying to rhyme words. So did he write there it is no place for the meek because he was trying to rhyme with creek. Probably. not a lot of words rhyme with creek. Architecturally place yourself writing the poem.

    • mosby123;

      Or was it the other way around? Did he have a place where the meek might be fearful of going to, and then has to rhyme “meek” ? JDA

    • There was a comment that mentioned limits to the words halt and walk.
      I’m not sure if the limitation included imagination or not… But, reviewing the comment might be helpful, should you be able to locate it.

      The other idea is, he may had a need for both words, rather than one or the other. Which makes more sense to; every word was deliberate, and we shouldn’t discount words. Personally, Mosby, I think you’re attempting to over-KiSS a line in the poem, to just be there, for another word to connect a rhyming pattern… with the emphasis on creek. What about “No Place”? It literally yells meek is referencing a ‘place’… maybe -?- Just HLnWH?
      It might read as: no place for the meek… at the correct ‘end’ of a creek to be at [water or dry passage] IS just HLnWH. Reference what or why meek was used. It might give up what Heavy Loads and Water High is about. Stanza three could be talking about a single “place” ~ from hoB “the end” is Just HLnWH = no place for the meek.

      Many seem to be stuck at what NF,BTFTW refers to. Yet most think that some creek [ a waterway? with no know distance mentioned as well ] will take us to HLnWH… Might it be possible that “Put in Below hoB” IS “the end” we seek, or being at the end of whatever hoB represents? And where HLnWH is located… At a point on/in hoB.

      IF the poem could read as such [ on site ] Just how big is hoB? Can HLnWH simply site on the edge of the Place / Area hoB is referencing? Might NPFTM refer to hoB? Look at it this way… start at WWWH at some point in hoB or on the edge of the area. All of hoB is being describe as, no place for the meek, and all of stanza three is just that, The other end of hoB is HLnWH.. but hoB might be nothing more than ‘a narrow passage’

      Stanza 1 states “alone IN there” stanza 6 states “Brave’ and IN the wood” the clues [ for lack of a better term ] section of the poem refer to hoB and no place for the meek.
      What is “IN” where? Are we not looking for a “location beforehand”? to have a direct path… which starts at WWH.

      Where is your home? It’s where you live, inhabit, stay IN…
      For the ‘Architectural design’ topic… the key to thinking the right thoughts [ a word ] might be IN hoB. If you “knew” hoB, you’d go right to the chest.
      How do you nail down WWH… look for where it IN-habits.

      Oh right, Mosby, I like to think “No Place for the ‘meek’ might be a bit more important then creek. imo.

      Just more rambling and rumbling.

      • If I were an architect and want to build a house, I would say, like;

        First, build a foundation here.
        Second, build a floor on top of the foundation.
        Third, build these walls around the floor.
        Fourth, connect the walls with joists.
        Finally, put a roof above the joists.

        What I’m trying to say is that I want to give the instructions to build a house in the right order. You don’t want to put a roof before you connect the walls with joists. But here we have a poem, instead of a simple instruction. And you have to get the rhymes right. But somehow it happens that in order to have the rhyme right you have to change the order of the instruction. For example, if I use the five building instructions listed above, the final instruction has to come before the fourth instruction. Now what are you going to do?

        There a couple of ways to circumvent this dilemma. I think one of the ways to tell somebody to follow the instruction in the correct order (because the order is destroyed in order to get the rhyme right) is to show the instructions in the correct tense. So you write the fourth line of the poem (which is the final instruction) in the future tense, and the fifth line of the poem (which is the fourth instruction) in the past tense, and leave other lines (from the first to the third instructions) in the present tense as following:

        You build a foundation here.
        You build a floor on top of the foundation.
        You build these walls around the floor.
        You’ll put a roof above the joists.
        You’ve connected the walls with joists.

        I think Fenn must have done the same in writing his poem. Therefore, IMHO, “There’ll be no paddle up your creek, Just heavy loads and water high.” (lines 3 and 4 in stanza 3) should come after “If you’ve been wise and found the blaze, Look quickly down, your quest to cease” (lines 1 and 2 in stanza 4).

        Please consider this as another fresh interpretation of the poem. I’ve seen several searchers have mentioned about the order of the poem, and this is my take on this subject.

        — MajinKing
        Finally,

        • Majinking,

          I get what you’re saying… I think.

          IF Just heavy loads and water high is the blaze we seek, we should have “been” wise to have found that. From there we look for the chest.. rather than… after HLnWH being a clue – before – a next step to get to a blaze.

          It’s not changing the poem, it’s would be understanding what the poem is saying.
          The same idea could relate to hoB. Stanza 2 first 3 line could be below the hoB. Or simply saying go here to find this / those clues, below this location.

          The clues would be in consecutive order IF the poem ‘tells’ you the order they are in, line of thinking.

          Quick Example. Begin at my house, and to get there, take canyon road down. My house is below the lake.

          From there [ the lake ] the road is rutted and graveled all the way to the end [ the lake ] Just HLnWH…

          If you find the lake above, look down down canyon rd, to my house.

          We would need to nail down where my house is… ‘which is below the lake.’ or Just HLnWH

          OK… IF that is a possible reading of the poem… the poem’s HL may refer to hoB, and WH may refer to WWH… a single place to be at to look down from [ the blaze location – HLnWH ] at the chest’s location.

          Basically saying; You need to know [“certainly of the location beforehand”] where hoB is to find [‘nail down”] WWH… both being represented by “just HLnWH”. “From There it’s NPFTM”.. where the chest lays in wait.

          Is that remotely close to your line of thinking?

      • Majin (you aren’t a doppelganger of Imajin are you?): reordering of anything in Forrest’s poem makes me nervous, “don’t mess with my poem” ringing in my ears. Architecture when applied to a poem can suggest many things. Rhyming structure is itself architectural: you are placing requirements on the words that are independent of their meaning. There is also horizontal structure (syllables per line) and vertical structure (lines per stanza), neither of which is relevant to ordinary prose.

        Poetry offers Forrest the opportunity to explore the artistic space in ways that ordinary writing cannot. And it also offers ways to deliver clues in ways that simple writing cannot.

        • No, I’m not. I’m pretty new to the discussion on this site.

          I understand your concern about messing his poem. But what I’m trying is just focusing on the order of the poem, not messing. If I were to write a poem and I want the readers to read my poem the typical way, I mean, reading from line 1 to line 24, then I don’t have to say anything and just present my poem. But Fenn hinted that we should read the poem “in consecutive order.” Now if he wants us to read the poem in a typical way from top to bottom, why has he specifically mentioned that we should read it that way unless he was forced to switched the order somehow? That’s what I’m trying to understand and I presented a theory as a way to possibly tackle the order problem.

          — MajinKing

          • MK, you have a few good points there. We need to read the poem to find the clues that are in consecutive order and that does not mean strictly top to bottom.

          • MajinKing,

            The poem is written in consecutive order, therefore the clues are in consecutive order from line one to line 24. The thing to remember that F said, “the poem is straight forward”. Therefore, I interpret what F said that you read the poem normally, from top to bottom which is not messing with the poem and the clues are found in the normal order of reading, which is consecutive order.

            Just Say’n

          • CharlieM

            Not messing with the poem arises from changing words in the poem [ halt – balk ].

            IF the poem explains itself and the understanding of a line and/or clues is meant as a ‘position of its place’ [ lets say ] above another clue’s reference… Is that changing the poem ~ messing with the poem?

            Example; stanza 2 has two sentences. One sentence [ PIBTHOB ] might be telling us; the other sentence clue’s “references” are below it.

            Stanza 3 could be read the same as; NPFTM equates to TBNPUYC… meaning the same location and not needed for travel… JUST be at whatever HLnWH refer to… which could be below hoB at WWWH.

            I think many are trying very hard to force 9 locations [KiSSing the heck out of all this] when this all could revolve around one location “try and simplify the clues.”

          • CharlieM, one definition for consecutive:
            in unbroken or logical sequence. So while a normal read from top to bottom could be an ‘unbroken’ sequence is not necessarily a ‘logical’ sequence. (time, directions, instructions, etc.)

          • Seeker
            I grew up in the South, so the way I read the poem out loud would sound completely different then someone from California reading it. So, I’m not changing words, I’m just pronouncing them differently. Would I be messing with the poem then, IMO , no.
            -B
            -B

          • Bridie

            I grew up in NY, and now live in the south. I say Cawfee, and wattar… TN is a hard state on word pronunseeashuns, it be a li’le bit hilbilly and a litle rockin role. I try not to use five syllable words much… I almost got a hernia sayin that one.

            LOL ya don’t want to hear me recite the poem.

  63. What if the nine clues in the poem that we are supposed to marry to places on a map are not necessarily physical places being described by lines in the poem? What if some, or all, of the clues come from the architecture of the poem? Here is an example of what I mean:

    – HoB: The capital B leads searchers to look for places named Brown on a map, or people named Brown that lived in the search area. That is a red herring. But, within the architecture of the poem, there are only 25 capital letters. Maybe we should just pay attention to the 25 capital letters. Here’s the leap…25 capitals could hint at 25 states. The 25th state to join the Union was Arkansas, So could that be a clue for the Arkansas River? If so, then the Arkansas River could be the “it” in BIWWWH.

    To continue on with this line of thinking, there would not be a physical place WWWH. Something else within the architecture of the poem has to be deciphered to give us the intersection with the Arkansas River to use as our starting point. I don’t think this contradicts ff’s statement that BIWWWH is the first clue. It just means that there are two elements, the Arkansas River and something that intersects with it, that become WWWH, and our starting point.

    All of this, of course, is just my opinion.

    • Alphabetically Missouri is #25. Since you are looking at letters and capitalizations, it makes sense to use this logic than going by the order of when they became a state. At Three Forks, Montana the Madison, Gallatin and Jefferson rivers converge into the Missouri river. Also Jefferson City is the capital of Missouri. (more capitalization)

      Most of the hottest water from the Yellowstone caldera flows from the Firehole river into the Madison and end up in the Missouri. That’s a good warm waters halt.

      • Interesting. I never considered alphabetical order. I looked for something with Little Rock, but that was a dead end. There are a lot of Jeffersons to work with, which is a better answer for the 25th Capital riddle anyway.

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