The Nine Clues…Part Seventy Three

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This page is now closed to new comments. To continue the conversation please head to the latest Nine Clues page.

This is the place to discuss the nine clues…For instance:
What are the nine clues…
Is the first clue “Begin it where warm waters halt” ?

682 thoughts on “The Nine Clues…Part Seventy Three

    • Everything that has a beginning, has an end Vox. And that is being brave and in the wood. 😯

  1. Totally respect your opinion Lug, my intent was not to make an accusatory statement so I apologize. Sometimes I forget the sensitivity of certain topics. Your doing good when you point out that people need to stay safe, Forrest is doing the same.

    This is my first year on the Chase and it is just my personal observation that that there are several paradigms that we should insist be challenged. The Fenn at 79 = X% physical limitation is a subjective unit of measure to which we all must assign our own solution. There are the things he says and then there are the things we infer. For me personally on this area, I’m just following the clues while avoiding things that would be hazardous to my health. 😉

    • Hi Clee –

      I cannot recall what this comment is answering or referencing. It didn’t post under my comment.

      If we are talking about hints and clues as I have been doing for a couple of days I can comment further for you.

      Everyone is encouraged by me to share. All ideas are valid. I get testy with some of my friends here for one of 3 reasons.

      1. They do something dangerous and sure that’s subjective.
      2. They endeavor to assert their will over that of the originator. I don’t care if searchers don’t listen to me. I care when they think ONLY they know what Fenn truly intended or even that they know better!
      3. They tease us without saying what they mean. That gets old after a period of time.

      A a general note the only reason for this community to exist is to share ideas.

      Fenn has said he would give no further clues. Therefore when someone sees a new clue they are delusional. IMO he avoids giving hints at the clues. So then when someone says WOW I see something you don’t see I say NO you don’t. You are seeing what you wish too. I am really pretty simple minded in that regard. Everything Fenn says will inform us about the man and that is helpful but it’s not hinting by my definition.

      You sound like you understand that if a 79 year old man in great shape wouldn’t have done something than you won’t do it. On my list of things he didn’t do but which searchers have done.

      Enter a moving body of water. In any manner.
      Cross a moving body of water in a manner that wets him.
      Travel further than 3 miles.
      Achieve more than 1000 feet of vertical on foot.
      Park within sight of the TC location.
      Place the TC in any area where it would be inaccessible due to weather.

      Lugnutz

      • I forgot dangle from a cliff edge 30 feet above the ground
        oh and
        Look behind waterfalls in the Cimarron Valley

      • Lug –

        Your list above excludes a lot of places in the Rocky Mountains. Either your a genius that has narrowed the search area down to a manageable size or you need to consider other possibilities.

        • HMA –

          I am just following what Forrest says. That’s how I see it. I’m the opposite of a genius. I put almost no original thought into it. I follow what Fenn says.

          I also don’t write anything down. I just recall it and so sometimes my recollections are uncertain.

          I believe that Fenn did not wade into water and so I don’t either. Think about it. Picture it in your mind. Can you see Forrest at 79 fording a stream with the 20 plus pounds of gold on his back? I cannot.

          Lugnutz

  2. If the chase comes full circle, how does one begin it?
    Where can you (put in) on a circle that could even be considered a beginning spot ?

        • Where warm waters halt. Sorry, but it really is a question of getting the start point right, otherwise you’ve no place to go.

          The poem plus your imagination will tell you where to start. There is only one place WWWH, and you won’t be able to pin it down from searching Google maps. That comes later.

          All this is only an opinion.

          • If WWWH was the first clue, and a little girl from India with only the poem and a map could only get the first two clues. How could she arrive at that idea?

          • “If WWWH was the first clue, and a little girl from India with only the poem and a map could only get the first two clues. How could she arrive at that idea?”

            You tell me, aMp. There’s no little girl from India in the poem.

  3. Could the radius point (center of a circle) be the beginning… or the end… or both? If the clues form a circle, could the treasure be located at the center radius point? Just thinking out loud.

    • It’s an interesting theory, TJ, and I think someone proposed something similar a few years ago. But if you think about it, it would be incredibly difficult to get all the clues to form a perfect circle in a non-geometric landscape.

  4. IMO:
    “As I” is the first clue. It’s a reference to Lake Isa in Yellowstone, on continental divide. Southeast of Old Faithful.
    IMO, WWWH is the place where FF bathed im the Firehole river. Down from there is the Firehole Canyon and the Madison Canyon. HOB may be the rangers station at Madison junction. My next guess is that the Norris Geyser Basin is no place for the meek, due to comments about this area by Joe Meek. After that I imagine that heavy loads and water high is Slide Lake, north of Mammoth Hot Springs. Beyond there I want go to Rainbow Lake.
    But from my armchair I am not sure if this is the best answer.

    • Michael, I think the opening line is very important, but perhaps not for the reason you suggest. FF has stated that you need to follow the clues precisely. I think precision would require much more focused spots than a lake or a canyon could offer. Again, just my opinion.

  5. Maybe he chucked it in a geyser that is not due to blow for 100yrs. And when it does folks will be scampering around it for the gold 🙂

  6. It would seem that a lot of searchers believe a circle (whether figurative or literal) is somehow involved in the solution to Forrest’s poem. But where are they getting this idea? It doesn’t come from the poem, and it doesn’t come from TTOTC. I suspect it stems from Fenn’s answer to a single question from Jenny’s 6-Questions back in February 2013: “From receiving feedback on hunter’s ideas and methods about how to discover the location of the chest, do you feel confident your method in hiding the chest will eventually be understood and the chest be found? Please know, I am not asking for any specifics. My question is more like, do you still feel your poem will lead someone to the treasure?” Fenn’s answer: “The person who finds the treasure will have studied the poem over and over, and thought, and analyzed and moved with confidence. Nothing about it will be accidental. T. S. Eliot said:

    “We shall not cease from our exploration
    And at the end of all our exploring
    Will be to arrive where we started
    And know the place for the first time”

    So is this very short excerpt from Eliot’s Little Gidding the only source of this circle theory? If so, then consider that a “circle” is not at all mentioned in these four lines; there are infinitely more ways to return to a starting point by non-circular routes than by circular ones.

    • “Will be to arrive where we started
      And know the place for the first time”

      Birth – Death
      ? ?

      SL

    • Hi Zap. Although a circle is not mentioned in the poem it is mentioned in the books. If you find the correct circle it will lead you to the location of the chest. Mr Fenn has included it as another way to locate the general area of the chest. You need to do something special with the circle to find the location of the chest but I will keep that information to myself for now.
      You can still find the chest without the circle though.
      Good luck Zap.

      • Where does a circle start?
        You see every circle is really a different object you must remember in that drawing one circle is not the same thing as drawing another circle both are separated by space and time which proves they are different Objects.

        And so a circle begins where you first draw the line and ends where you last draw the line which happens to be usually around about the same point, and so a circle has no definite begin as every circle has its own beginning, a circles beginning and end are the same point and all the rest of points and the line which develops the loop to create the circle is the middle, so it really depends on where you first draw it, and it must have a beginning or else the circle would never have been drawn and it must have an end or else it would not form to create a circle, thus a circle must have a start and end, and they must be the same point and they must be the point in which you first and/or last draw them.

  7. Where do warm waters halt?
    Down what canyon?
    Where is HOB?
    From where is no place for the meek?
    Where is the end ever drawing nigh?
    Where is the creek with no paddle?
    Where & what is heavy loads?
    Where & what is water high?
    Where & what is the blaze?

    Good luck with your marvel gaze.

    • 7 years; probably 100,000 people read and tried to solve the poem ,half that probably searched and searching, 2 people were close by 200-500 yards but didn’t know it. I have been at it for a year thinking and I don’t know the answers to same questions .

    • Jake –

      Why so many questions and so few answers?

      Also, if you stop at the blaze, you won’t ever find the treasure, IMO of course. Logic says that you should not discount any words in the poem. I think f also said it would be risky to discount any of the words in the poem.

      At least there is still time to work on the poem. As for the big game, the clock keeps ticking and the Falcons may serve some crow to the Pats.

      • Hma: “Logic says that you should not discount any words in the poem.”

        F: “There are a few words in the poem that are not useful in finding the treasure Phil”

        If your going to use every word in the poem to get you to the chest, you are not going to succeed.

        The Falc is eating the crow.

          • Yup ken,
            The similarities in the chase & the Superbowl brings me to those that think they have it all wrapped up.

            I will not mention there names here but I will say that if you think you know where it is & you don’t have it in your possession, then your just blowing smoke & trying to make everyone else look like a joke.

            The fat lady has not sung & she is not warming up anytime soon.

        • Jake;

          You did not post the complete quote from Forrest:
          There are a few words in the poem that are not useful in finding the treasure Phil, but it is risky to discount any of them. You over simplify the clues. There are many places in the Rocky Mountains where warm waters halt, and nearly all of them are north of Santa Fe. Look at the big picture, there are no short cuts. f

          The full quote says that to discount ANY of them is risky. The exact opposite of what you are trying to portray Forrest as having said.

          If you are going to quote Forrest, please keep it in context. Just my opinion. JDA

          • We have discussed this before JD,
            It is risky to discount any of them.
            The bottom line is that all the words in the poem will not help leading you to the treasure.

            I will say again, if you are using all the words in the poem to lead you to the treasure, you will fail.

            It was risky what he did & has been a risk taker just about all his life & now you want me to believe I should use all the words in the poem to lead me to the treasure.

            You’re going to have to throw some of the words away from the poem & be a risk taker as he was to be successful.

            Get inside his mind or you are blind.

          • You have, on more than one occasion, said not to discount what Forrest says, and yet you chose to pick and choose only those words that match your interpretation of the poem. Keep thinking that way, my friend, and you will owe me a bunch of bucks, when it is me that finds the treasure – using every stanza, really, every word. IMHO JDA

          • NADA,
            You choose to ignore several things F has said.
            This is taken to the next level past risky.
            I like to stay at the risky level.

            ” when it is me that finds the treasure”
            LOL, You don’t have all the clues. never mind the treasure.

            I like summer & where you are going but I know the treasure is not there.
            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KY1p-FmjT1M

          • Jake;

            You also conveniently ignore another quote from Forrest: ” “The poem in my book is something that I changed over and over again. When you read the poem, it looks like just simple words there, but I guarantee you, I worked on that thing … I felt like an architect drawing that poem.” f

            “…it looks like just simple words there…” He didn’t just work on a few selected words Jake, he worked on them all, so that it SEEMS simple, but is not.

            You say, ” You don’t have all the clues. never mind the treasure.” You are stating “as fact” something that you know nothing about. It is your OPINION that I do not have all of the clues…it is NOT a fact.

            Again, quit stating as fact things that are only your opinion Jake. and again, if you dare, put up or shut up! INHO JDA

    • I always thought the shadow picture of a man over the water that is on the cover of his book where the arm, walking stick , left leg and ground form a picture of a horses blaze in the blank space between them.

      • Then I found an almost exact map draw depiction of that blaze shape on google maps and thought nah….just coincidental and laughed at my self;that is too easy to read into that.!

        • Randawg,

          Could be that too! I just thought of it as a horse blaze when I saw an outline on google maps. Horse blaze..cowboy kind of thing. With that in mind I applied the rest of the poem to the area and a bit about Forrest. Just an open minded approach I studied the area. There is a WWH potential, take in in the canyon down, not too far to walk, nicely fit home of brown, nicely fit of no place for the meek, the end is ever drawing nigh, no paddle up your creek, heavy loads and water high. Those clues were very easy to discern flow there. But; the tarry scant and marvel gaze , look quickly down your quest to cease are difficult in that I would have to be searching the area to find the flow with those clues.

          I am of the thought that Forrest flew to the area , being as there is a small airport right there, no one(that personally knows him) knew where he flew that day. Or that he has been there or that it is special to him. It is a special place and we tend to not tell people our special place. There is an area there that only the locals know about and is hard to find but easy to get to-it is kept rather secret by the locals. I found my starting point there when I suddenly saw the outline of that picture almost exactly there (blaze). So, If I was to look down from map view there it all fit nicely. I am tempted to go look. Haven’t searched at all yet because I am still seeking confidence lol.

          • Sounds like you have a lot of the pieces in place. Keep working on it, my friend.

            Good luck to you. I hope that you find all that you seek. JDA

          • Thanks JDA, I did the dismissive point of view of my thinking and I still think in the positive to the area. I have done same to other areas and I failed to have more concreteness to those areas. I know others have searched the area but they only half hazard looked and not the same area of that area. I did a key word search with this poem for that search areas and only found 3 people mentioned it in all internet searches. So, that helps with the confidence too.

            Good luck to you too!

        • Al-nash….

          I will admit to making a 4,000 mile mistake my 3rd time out. An arrow shaped spot in the dirt, as seen on GE, was all the proof I needed/ what a bummer it was driving home.
          It’s a long story, but I gave up on the idea that Fenn was alluding to USGS Benchmarks after that one.
          Many people are into geocaching, handheld GPS units, and Benchmarks are very precise…trouble is there are about 750,000 of em

          • theycallme9clues,

            Not one person has not made a mistake in their search though, given it hasn’t been found. The blaze I am referring to is a bit different -it’s an outline of an area . It got my attention to study the area is all that it did. I still think there is another blaze to find in the area but that blaze on the map brought me to the area. I am of the mind that the clues in the poem are not singular, as in there may be 2 of the same blaze to find as an example: one of the same by map and one on the ground level.. I don’t know, just open to thinking in every way; therefore many mistakes to be had :).

          • heycallme9clues,

            You mention Geocaching also. In my researching my area there is a Geocaching box I found through pictures of peoples hikes. It got me thinking. Perhaps, maybe just to be open minded in thought; that what if Forrest put together a Geocaching box of trinkets about 200-500 feet from his spot and registered it on a Geocaching site with a tag number under an assumed name . So, lets say the woman he mentioned in his Forrest gets mail that she was within 200 feet but didn’t know it. So lets say he looks up his Geocaching tag finds and registering’s of peoples and see’s her name as finding his Geocache. Therefore, that is how he knew she was 200 feet away. Other of course maybe it was her description and pictures she sent him and he knew by that. But maybe her email was vaguely descriptive enough that she wouldn’t know he knew it was her that was that close. So, it would not be a clue to her as to who she was because he got it from his geocache she listed as finding/registering under his assumed name and that is why he mentioned it. Just a thought.

      • FYI:
        Question posted 7/2/2014:

        “Do you think that someone who is sure about the location of the home of Brown could reverse-engineer where warm waters halt? ~Ben Raylor

        Thanks for the question Ben.
        If you are sure about the location of home of Brown why are you concerned about where warm waters halt? But to answer your question, sure you could and a few searchers might throw in some gas money for a percentage of the take. Good luck.f”

        -Randawg.

        • Hi “randawg”…..this can be done.

          Ex. My initial solve – and still in play – was found using the poem directions.

          It wasn’t until after about a year or so, I decided to research all different “HoBs” and one of those I found is actually where my search area is located.

          Soooo……I’ve determined that these verses….

          “Begin it where warm waters halt
          And take it in the canyon down,
          Not far, but too far to walk.
          Put in below the home of Brown.

          From there it’s no place for the meek,”

          These first clues – if read correctly (wisely) will show the reader that the “meek place” is actually “south” of the “HoB”.

          So one can actually locate a HoB without using the poem. The kicker would be, is the place that is “below the home of Brown” is a place that is meek.

          I can be done, because I think WWWH is only used as a relative clue….because in truth, WWWH can be pretty much everywhere, except in the forest.

          Cheers.

          From there it’s no place for the meek,
          The end is ever drawing nigh;”

          • I don’t make assumptions JDA…..logic is my guide. Reason tags along side for the ride.

            This should be the questions one should ask themselves…..

            “Did you begin it WWWH and if so, is there a canyon in the proximity?

            If there is, did you take the canyon to a place that is meek and on the left….which is also below the HoB?”

            I didn’t mess with the poem at all to determine this path, but the poem helped me narrow the area.

            As for “assumptions” – every solve is a guess until the treasure is found.

            Why do I make an assertion instead of an assumption? Because it includes logic and reason.

          • I’m not sure if it truly was a good answer, but just thoughts I’ve come across in my seeking.

            Cheers to you as well JDA…..may you have wonderful luck!

        • As I have gone alone in there…
          If you are sure about the location of home of Brown why are you concerned about where warm waters halt?
          Is it possible that “put in below the hoB” is where ‘alone in there’ refers to?

          Possibly reading the poem as, begin where wwwh…. put in below where I have gone alone “hoB” ~ and from there the warm waters halt take you to, it’s no place for the meek?

          Is fenn actually telling us where to start ? need to know where to begin… to find the clues?

          If all the information is in the poem to find the chest. It seems the poem’s “information” may not be in order, yet the clues are for “finding” the chest.
          In this line of thinking could if be the first actual clue is, warm waters that are not warm ?halt? “your effort will be worth the cold [ waters ]?

          For those who enjoy matching words to possible name of places… this might be a thought away from hot springs, or words like firehole etc.

          And for those who dislike using all the poem and discount many words… well, disregard the above. You won’t you give this a second thought anyways

          • “As for “assumptions” – every solve is a guess until the treasure is found.”
            Amen to that Tim! 🙂

          • Seeker, did you see my post, Jan 2 . Go back k find it. Stanza one, riches mean hints, all you need is the poem. But he told us he will give us hints, hints by real-life memories, in ttotc, the sb’s ant tftw.

          • Seeker –

            This is good thinking. Fenn said to follow the clues consecutively but I do not believe he has said he presents them consecutively.

            Recently he may have referenced a POE poem. That poem is also a set of clues that need to be solved. In the POE poem we solve by moving the sixth stanza to the front before the first. we do so because most people do not really understand poetry. POE would contend that the reader should understand that meaning and solve those clues without moving the stanza.

            Here is a link if you want to read ABOUT For Annie

            http://www.eliteskills.com/c/3712

            In other words one can mess with the poem while not messing with the poem.

            Lugnutz

  8. So why is it that when I look at The Poem that I feel that I am in a game of Jeopardy. The answer is….

    • GEYDELKON,
      I don’t know if you’ll see this comment but. That’s interesting! I had a similar thought years ago, and couldn’t make anything out of it. Have you been able to? This may sound silly to some but I do not rule anything out at this point.

      Kanafire

      • I had to put my sunglasses with a name like yours. So lets take “no paddle up your creek just heavy loads and water high” The answer is “Who is Sacajawea” The dichotomy of Sacajawea is that she was called the boat pusher. Her cradle board was design to carry wood and rocks and of course Jean Baptiste. Baptiste is a french word to baptize (water high).

        If you are brave in the wood the answer is DOUBLE JEOPARDY! Whats your wager?

        • Well GEY (in all caps)

          Check with seeker to get the proper quote from Fenn where says something like “i wasn’t playing any games”
          Creative use though, I’ll give you that. Jeopardy huh?

          I always leaned more towards ‘wheel of fortune’. Don’t know the exact page numbers, but the pic [TTOTC] of Forrest and his classmates outside the school on picture day, to me the window panes look like the game-show board. Who are those creepy kids upstairs? So somehow the solution would spell out in the given squares, either spell out the location or coordinates….

          Over the years I decided to just go along with all of Fenn’s comments; yeah it’s a road map, only one starting point, clues are consecutive etc. Good luck

          • 9clues,
            I assume the last part of your comment… Road map, one starting point… Are your thoughts?
            If not I would really like to know when Fenn made those comments. I have never seen them said that way.

            Thanks

          • sorry Seeker,
            didn’t mean to put words in f’s mouth, those were my somewhat & always convoluted thoughts.
            When are you going to get in the game? Come on, stop being so practical, analytical and go out on a whim…do I need to drag you along next time?
            You mentioned something about being in proximity to the I-40 stretch, I don’t care much for I-40 west, did I-80 once, didn’t enjoy that either.
            Funny how the distances fade the more times you travel the same route, I’ll stick with I-70 & all of it’s highway interdiction troopers.
            Ooops, I think I hear someone calling the locksmith on your end, I better hang up

          • FYI – the I-40 interstate should not be involved in your quest, because the i-40 East/West is about 60 minutes SOUTH of Santa Fe, NM and actually goes right through Albuquerque.

            Please remember – “at least 8.25 miles NORTH of Santa Fe”….

            If you think the I-40 has a play in this, you aren’t paying attention to the clues given.

            Best of luck to all!

          • 9clues I was going to stop in Tunica MS. then head west… need to pay for the trip somehow.

          • Alex: Established in 1846 this institution protected the world’s treasures. It also affiliated this cold place where many treasured whispers exits today… since 2008.

          • Agreed! A number of my meteorite discoveries are curated by the Smithsonian. Eventually a lot of my space rock finds will be split between the Smithsonian and UCLA (Dr. Alan Rubin having done most of the analyses of my meteorites at UCLA).

          • Alex: We will go to aMp.
            What is the I.R.S. Alex !
            Sorry. That bring you down to $9
            We will go to eaglesabound.
            What is the Smithsonian.
            Ohhh so sorry. That brings you down to $51.
            We were looking for:
            What is any trail will lead you there.
            See you all next time.

        • GEYDELKON
          Your research is Very cool! I use the name Kanafire because that’s an ancestor of mine from the Cherokee nation. That’s as far back as I can go. It means” hot blooded man” in Cherokee.

          Kanafire

          • GEYDELKON,
            I forgot to say thanks! Do you have a solution? I like your way of reasoning!
            Good fortune to you.

            Kanafire

  9. IMO, Only the first two clues of the 9 can be found with only a map of the Rockies and the poem, the rest require something else?
    A little girl from India that never read the books can find the first two clues with only a map and the poem Then it’s safe to say that the words themselves in the poem and not the understanding of them relate one or both of the clues on the map because the little girl from India is limited to only those two resources to pool from. In fact her understanding of the words in the poem may be what’s preventing her from solving the next clue.

    • aMp ~”A little girl from India that never read the books can find the first two clues with only a map and the poem…”
      The actual wording was “can not get closer”… first two clues.
      While there has only been one comment that the first Four clues may have been solve there’s no indication the one or more[solvers] know it. So the question remains, were the four clues solved at home or on site?

      • Hmm, was the original question verbiage; a little girl from India. Or; a little girl in India. ?

        • FF quote ; ” the little girl in India cannot get closer than the first two clues.” From MW 6Q

        • In this email from Forrest to a journalist in Italy, Forrest answers some questions you may have been wondering about yourself.

          ————— forrest gets mail #9

          Are there signs that people are getting closer to solving your puzzle? How many clues have people solved now?
          Searchers have come within about 200 feet. Some may have solved the first four clues, but I am not certain.

  10. F has mentioned a double omega in one word. It falls in the middle of the word. The beginning and end words, I feel, give us the blaze. F has also shown us examples of the blaze. Confirmation can be found in the 3rd stanza. If you’ve been wise, by finding this, then you can find the blaze.
    It involves the beginning of f’s collective nature, and he ends it the same way, as a phenomenal find!
    All IMO.
    ¥Peace ¥

  11. Has anyone tried to reverse engineer the poem? I know FF has said don’t mess with his poem-and start at the beginning, but do we really know the beginning??? That’s the whole topic here! For example, FF knew where he would hide the chest 22 years ago (give or take a few) before he wrote the poem. Why did he pick WWWH as the beginning (assuming that’s the start)?

    He knew the end location without a doubt, but why did he pick WWWH as the beginning? Couldn’t there be a different “start” location???
    Think about how he crafted the poem.

    • Yes Dayton,
      I have actually reversed engineered the poem in a way where the area that he would like to rest his bones for eternity is a very special, pleasing place & work your way back to see if the clues fit & they do.

      Some think that a desert would be his special place.

      If the area doesn’t fit, then you must quit.

    • From MW blog:
      Question posted 7/2/2014:

      “Do you think that someone who is sure about the location of the home of Brown could reverse-engineer where warm waters halt? ~Ben Raylor

      Thanks for the question Ben.
      If you are sure about the location of home of Brown why are you concerned about where warm waters halt? But to answer your question, sure you could and a few searchers might throw in some gas money for a percentage of the take. Good luck.f”

      -Randawg.

      • Reklim –

        I say it all he time. The starting point arbitrary. Fenn didn’t start there and we don’t start there.

        He started at his home of a hotel or friends house. Then a bunch of stuff happens between where he started and where he is telling us to start.

        Believe me when I tell you and mr jones that no one wants to hear this.

        Lugnutz

        • Lugnutz
          You should remind yourself , that there will be a day when the person that has the actual solve posts on this forum. You should also remind yourself since you don’t have the actual solve, it may be difficult for you to determine the person that does. I am sure you will not recognize that person. I will advise you to remember the name Reklim.
          Reklim

          • Lugnutz and others: I’m somewhat mystified by the searchers who have multiple “solves” (hate that word) — and not just serial solutions, but multiple *simultaneous* ones, often in multiple states. If a searcher can’t differentiate amongst their own ideas, is it that much of a stretch to conclude they are all wrong?

            It brings to mind the lines from Monty Python’s “Life of Brian”:

            Brian: “I’m NOT he Messiah!”

            Arthur: “I say you are, lord, and I should know, I’ve followed a few!”

          • Mandy: “He’s not the messiah, he’s a very naughty boy!”

            a very funny movie 🙂

          • Life of Brian—(part of the crowd at the Sermon on the Mount, too far away to hear properly):

            “He said Blessed are the Cheesemakers. But why should they be blessed?”

        • Lug;

          Forrest could have started ANYWHERE – who cares where he started before the quest begins?

          The point is that Forrest tells us that OUR quest has to start somewhere that matches his SOMEWHERE that is the beginning of the quest – be that at wwwh or “IN THERE”. – or some other place.

          It is this place that is the “Begin IT (your quest) where…” that is important! JDA

          • “The point is that Forrest tells us that OUR quest has to start somewhere that matches his SOMEWHERE that is the beginning of the quest – be that at wwwh or “IN THERE”. – or some other place.”

            I am also now in the camp that one can also use the poem if they were keen enough to figure out “the home of Brown”.

            IMO – one can look at this part of the poem as a starting point as well…..but like the WWWH clue, one must have a definite location and nothing speculative.

            So in truth….FF is not speaking with complete honesty……as he would know that this would be the case as well.

            He reverts back to the beginning to possibly make if harder for us seekers.

            “Put in below the home of Brown.”

            Is a direct assertion on what to do. One could begin the quest from this point, if they know the hoB…..don’t let FF think you have to begin anew.

            Just double check your path….is your search location “below the home of Brown”? If so….then your solve would still put you on the path to Indulgence.

            The question to ask yourself at this point…..do I have the correct HoB?

            Good luck.

  12. Dal, I would like to ask you exactly when f, sold his plane. I read that you said somewhere that it was sold, but I can’t find it again. Also, are you sure when it was sold?

    • Sam-
      I wrote about that at one time but I don’t have that info at the tip of my brain anymore..
      Yes…he definitely sold it…
      I think a photo of the check…which originally bounced was posted or published somewhere…can’t remember…but I know I’ve seen it. Anyway the check was made good and his plane went away. If you can scrounge up the tail number you will see that it is still around..Last I heard it was in service as a commercial commuter.

    • @sam I think i the info is in one of the scrapbooks or F’s get’s mail….I’ve seen the pic of the bounced check. Right now I’m researching Weeping Angles and The Statue of Liberty…..deep rabbit holes for sure….lol! Could the Statue of Liberty be ‘the blaze’ nah…

      • Thanks for the link Locolobo. There is the horse type blaze again in one of those pictures that is the same as the shadow picture of the cover of Fenn’s book! Never saw those pictures before. Not the arrow head ones but the native shirt one. Exactly the same as what I found in outline of my area also in google maps. Hmmm. Coincidence? Moby Dickens video he says and doesn’t say specific hints.

  13. I see two good questions above:
    “why did he pick WWWH” (Dayton Jones) to “Begin it…” (F)?
    and
    “…why are you concerned about where warm waters halt?” (F)
    IMO, the answers may help someone find a clue.
    (Now, back to the marks on my map.!)
    Geoff
    “Have flashlight, will travel”

  14. Thank you so much Dal, Loco, and Cholly! I was laying in bed thinking about
    the TC, and how it got where it is. Knowing this may help in the search. I looked at the check, for the sale of his plane. I would think that because f, has the means to get there the easiest way, why would he drive? He could not check in, his two back packs, with the treasure, on a commercial flight, because they could come up missing. Since he sold his plane earlier, I think he must have borrowed a plane, or rented one for his last flight. I may be wrong, I got the idea from page #15 of the TTOTC. f, says, NOW, near the END of my
    79th year ——- I’ll make my last flight… Yes, he is speaking of death, but could this have a double meaning for us?

  15. Hi Curious Hobbit — 9 Clues #72 closed down before I had a chance to reply to your post:

    “I also wonder whether the “been wise and found the blaze” line is not actually a clue, but rather refers to the bigger picture of solving the ‘undiscovered trail’ as such (a red-herring maybe?)

    hope ya well, mate”

    Forrest has in the past said there are no red herrings. Evidence suggests that solving the poem is hard enough without muddying the waters with false clues, and searchers seem to be proficient with manufacturing their own rabbit holes quite without Forrest’s assistance. (grin)

    I believe the past tense of “If you’ve been wise and found the blaze” truly is literal: you’ve already found it by this point in the poem, but have not yet been instructed what to do with it.

    I saw yesterday that the world’s longest commercial flight landed in your fair city of Auckland after a 16-hour 23-minute, 9032-mile flight from Doha, Qatar. Yikes. I thought L.A. to Auckland was quite long enough!

    • Zap;

      “If you’ve been wise” = past tense, so if you have been wise and found the blaze yesterday, or some day before… Where could you have been when you found the blaze previously? How about in TTOTC. What if there is a picture or an illustration in TTOTC that you have previously seen, and that is now embedded in your subconcious; and then when you see the “real” blaze – you immediately KNOW that it IS the blaze that you were seeking. Make sense? It does to me.
      JDA

      • JDA: the question you have to ask yourself is whether you could determine the blaze from the poem alone. Forrest says you don’t need TTOTC to solve the poem, so I would be wary of a solution that had critical dependence on an illustration in the book.

        My blaze is completely self-contained in the poem, and you have already found it by the time you get to the 4th stanza because you’ve been wise.

      • Hey JDA,

        Question for you. You saw yesterday my said blaze potentially being the outline in the shadow picture of the man with the walking stick reflected in the water picture on the cover of the Fenn’s book.

        The inside outline of the elbow, the stick, left leg and ground.- looks like a horses blaze. Now look at the picture in his scrapbook pictures of the picture taken of an artist picture of a Native American shirt. Can you see the almost perfectly exact shape in red on the chest of the shirt. I mean how same is that!!!

        https://dalneitzel.com/2014/11/09/scrapbook-one-hundred-four/

        • Alset and Zap;

          Alset: I think that the problem is that TFTW was written after TTOTC. Forrest said:”: ”There are nine clues in the poem, and the clues are in consecutive order. If you want to find the treasure chest – you have my book there – I’ll tell you how to do it. Read the book just normally … the poem and the rest of the book, and then go back and read the poem 6, 8, 10 times – study every line, every word. Then after you do that, read the book again, slowly, with the idea of looking for clues or hints, that are in the book that will help you follow the clues. You can find the chest with just the clues, but there are hints in the book that will help you with the clues.” f He was referring to TTOTC, NOT TFTW – I would be careful.

          Zap: I think that the same above quote answers the question you pose. JDA

          • It was written after , yes , but I just saw the picture because it was linked today. TFTW was written after but he had that picture obviously prior to all things about this poem. So, why not would he include that picture as a clue later that knew no one but me would recognize it lolol.? So for me that is 2 of same design I saw independent of this last one making it 3. Being after the fact in book production means nothing to me of being in an order of cause to be dismissive of it. I think searchers perhaps haven’t found this treasure because they don’t notice the simplicity of clues right in front of them. I have read the poem over and over. He did say there are subtle hints in his book. Just the one book? Maybe.

            Thanks for answering JDA. Cheers!

          • I believe that there is at least one hint in TFTW – in the preface. Are there any more???? I am not sure. You may have found one. I was just expressing my cautious side. JDA

          • JDA,

            Oh for sure man, I get your advisement. We just share here and that is why I post here. I value yours and all others opinion . I just intend to learn and share thoughts here.

            Cheers!

          • Just found a quote that sheds a wee bit of light on the question: ” Q. Arte there clues in this new book (TFTW) that are not in TTOTC?
            A. There is one clue in this book that’s not in TTOTC. And I didn’t know the clue was in this book until it was printed.”

            Hope this helps. JDA

          • Yes, you got it! Haha . I thought the same. 2 almost exact designs as I described. I also found that design on google maps prior to seeing that picture today. So that is 3 coincidences to me. When does coincidence become synchronicity? Just throwing it out there to see what others may think.

        • Chicago radio WGN interview, March 2013: http://lummifilm.com/blog/WGN2013.mp3
          Minute 10:45, Q: Does the book give me any more information than I would get from the poem?
          A: “There are some subtle hints in the text of the book that will help you with the clues.  The poem will take you to the chest but the book by itself won’t.” f

          *You will ignore the poem at your own peril

          “I mean, there’s people driving down the street looking for a blaze, because that’s one of the clues, but you can’t start in the middle of the poem and find the treasure, I don’t think, I mean, it would be a miracle if someone did.”

          “What surprises me a little is that nobody to my uncertain knowledge has analyzed one important possibility related to the winning solve. ff”

          “I’ve said things people think are clues.”

          • Not really a message from me, Alsetenash.

            In fenn’s own words he said; subtle hints in the { text } of the book. Warns not to ignore the poem… has stated, all the information to find the chest is in the poem. Has basically stated it would be impossible to locate the blaze prior to understanding the clues before it.
            I’ll add my thoughts that ~ the blaze is “one of the clue” ~ “in the middle of the poem”
            That seems to imply more clues and “more” poem to be understood and usable. IMO the blaze is not the end of the clues. If i read into that quote correctly.

            While others imply different to pics in the book TTOTC and the overwhelming hints and clue in tftw… I thought it be prudent to have fenn’s words repeated for clarification. Do with them what ya like…

            The one that itches my britches is… nobody to my uncertain knowledge has analyzed one important possibility related to the winning solve.

            We’re missing something.

          • Thanks seeker,

            i had trouble accessing this site suddenly an hour ago.

            I understand . My blaze I infer was found after I established the area. I discovered it when I was applying the poem clues to the area when I discovered it. I recognized it from the cover photo then the drawing outline on a map then today in a picture here on the site. I just sort of went aha!

            Who knows; I maybe onto something or not at all.

          • Seeker, let’s try to think of what are some concepts in solving things, .. riddles or anything?

    • thanks Zap

      I think you’re right, and thought without using my brain, once again.
      Although I’m still slightly confused about this whole ‘blaze’ conundrum, so could you possibly explain precisely where your blaze is located? – purely as a comparative example of course.

      ..I won’t tell anyone ..honestly ! 🙂

      over 16 hours from Doha to AK? wow, it only took me 12 from here to LAX – maybe they borrowed that old plane those Wright guys built a few years back (?)

      I once did 23hrs from SYD-Karachi-Heathrow when I was young and stupider – felt like 2 years (ouch)
      🙂

  16. IMO, LGI identifies in Stanza One a line, a point and a feature.
    The line: I-gone-alone-there = 111.3°, WY’s western border.
    The point: As I = Isa lake, atop the C/D & drains to two oceans.
    The feature: old & new = time
    What better represents flowing time than a river with it’s geography, geology, history, & secrets?

    I do think when Fenn wrote TTOTC he tried to incorporate clues & hints into the stories, but they got in the way of the story, so he abandoned that approach for “all you need is the poem”. But I think “that’s not “all the truth” … first, because “need” is a smaller circle than ‘useful’, and second, because I find subtle remnants in several chapters indicating very specific places. Here’s a couple examples I find curious … near the beginning of each book, (TTOTC & TFTW), and only in these 2 places, is turquoise mentioned or shown. Turquoise lake is the beginning of the Arkansas River flowing past Browns Canyon which is below Molly Brown’s home.

    In Blue Jeans & Hush puppies, ff traded a dead-dog-bridge picture for a ‘fairies dancing around a rock’ picture. Have you looked at Fairy Falls in YSNP? On my GE, the marker is at the trail head, not the falls. The FF’s look like ff’s Viet Nam description. Look at the top of the falls, … back a little from the cliff edge, there is smaller waterfall that looks to be the beginning of the big drop. From the cliff edge, you might be able to see ff’s bathing hole. Or vice versa… I can’t get to the site to verify. But heres the kicker for me… starting that chapter (page 104) is a picture of a “picture”. To take the trail to Fairy Falls you will pass the Grand Prismatic. To take a good picture of it, you must climb “picture hill”, so named for all the people who climbed it to take a picture. Picture is the hint in that chapter. The forest service is reconfiguring that trail route in 2016-7… ff couldn’t have anticipated the change.

    The many hints/clues I find in the book are across all states might be literary coincidences played by the jokester.

    I also thing you’re not going to FIND a blaze, but will MAKE one at a wise place …. because the Menken poem wasn’t found until he turned over the face-down scant.

    • OS2,
      While I like some of the thought you posted… and for discussion… you said: ‘The forest service is reconfiguring that trail route in 2016-7… ff couldn’t have anticipated the change.’

      Here’s my thought. Fenn know most of these areas like the back of his hand. Has seen changes of these areas within his life time… as well as history has describes these areas. Would you think if some place that was a needed clue and fenn’s thinking of 100, 1000 plus years down the road… a reconfiguring that trail route would have been a thought in his mind when re-writing a poem that took 15 years?

      I’m gonna be honest when I say… sure I believe there are hints within the book that fenn said would help with the clues… if you can recognizes them. But for me the book confuses me even more, just because, everything looks like a hint. You could be correct, but I don’t see fenn overlooking the possibility of changes to areas [ like service roads ] and use that as ‘needed’ information… Just an opinion.

      • Seeker, the trail may be rerouted, but Picture Hill and the Grand Prismatic will still be there for some time … if the volcano doesn’t erupt. I just thought it cold be a place referenced in that Hush Puppies chapter… maybe not even connected to the hunt, but just fun for Fenn to write in such a layered manner. Did you look at Fairy Falls on GE? It’s stunning, and I think a short bike ride along the old freight road from his bath place. I wonder if it was visible to him. As a boy, I doubt he could resist climbing to the top. But as an 80 year old, I doubt he would make a trip there to hide a treasure.

        • Posted elsewhere at some time back, but if you k ow where took you can make out fairy falls from the parking lot to get to the bath spot, esp. With binoculars. I,’ve been to the bottom of the falls, but not the top. Don’t think a 80 yr old is going up there after a 2 or 1 mile hiike. Two diff trails.

  17. A creek; “Tangled Creek” (phone cord,SB 107), is in close proximity to Fairy Falls.

    Fountain Flats, IMO, would be a very special place.

    SL

    • HI SL. I didn’t know about Tangled creek. I don’t have any topos , just GE, & it leaves out a lot of info.
      I always thought that tangled, unplugged communication cord in SB107 implied a connection between the number pad and the writing pad. That certain #s & letters would have to be switched according to their placement on the phone key pad. But I never worked it, always assumed I’d get a ‘Drink you Ovaltine’ message…. Tangled creek makes more sense. It’s a very ihteresting SB, appears to be a blatant alert of a hidden message. Os2

      • Os2 and Jake,

        I’ve enjoyed ‘visiting’ ALL of the places that Ive mentioned here; some, more than others.

        Hope you’ll give the above a chance. You might smile.

        SL

  18. Quick Question……

    I know Fenn has said that he wants people to wait till the spring when the mud dries and what not. Has he ever mentioned his reasons? Is it because he does not want more people unwisely exposing themselves to the elements, or do you think that its next to near impossible to expose the TC. I understand that the answer to this is probably in fact a clue so i doubt anyone knows…..but hey, i figured id ask.

    • Bobby-
      He started saying this about the time the first searcher got into trouble while searching in winter and had to be evacuated by helicopter. Since then he reminds folks every winter to just wait til spring. So I believe this is all about safety. Many folks who head out to look for the treasure don’t know that the mountains in winter can be much more dangerous than say, Indianapolis in winter. They don’t take into consideration that they will be 7,000ft higher than Indianapolis or that there is a good chance their cell phone won’t work where they are searching.

      • Hi Dal….good safety advertisement! :o)

        We need to be safe when we are out “in the wood”.

        BUT…and there is always a but…..not to being safe, BUT….what time of year to look.

        FF says wait until Spring. I agree….but…..but…..

        Does the forum realize that foliage is usually less in the winter than it is in the Spring and fall?…..maybe not the Fall, but I think you get my meaning.

        Less foliage allows a seeker to see more without being hindered.

        If one is to “brave the cold” – is it an indicator of a specific season to commence your search in?

        I think there is something to that phrase…..just haven’t figured it out yet.

        • Tim,

          Just share my thought on what you said.

          My premise is that WWWH is a waterfall. Moving water (fast moving) requires colder temps to freeze. So, a waterfall would freeze (halt) in really cold temps-such as the Niagara Falls sometimes freezes in extreme cold temps . Though it may be below freezing and waterfall still flowing the water is still really cold-just fast moving. So, the effort will be worth the cold to my thinking means I would probably be showered with heavy loads of cold water to get to the chest. Maybe behind or I have to walk through the spray to get at the chest spot if it is not behind the fall. The spray creates a rainbow on a sunny day. Could be a high water fall or a relatively low in height one. Is water warmer when moving fast or warmer stagnant? It depends on many attributes and perceptions.

          The wwwh is the most complex for me to nail down. I simply relate to halt as freeze. Does a water fall start its freeze first at the bottom, top or both simultaneously? Hurts my brain lol.

          • For me “warm” is the hardest to understand. What does “warm” mean? 34 degree water is warmer than 33 degrees. I think all water is relatively warm until it stops, freezes, or just dries up.

          • Bob,

            Ya, that’s what I mean. This wwwh phrase the most ambiguous in the whole poem. No process of transition before warm and after warm. Warm water just halts. So i just take it as the leaning perception towards the (warm) water just freezes (halts) . If he just said where water halts without a temperature indicator it would mean so many other possibilities. But saying where warm water halts makes me relate with warm and halts as a transition of a form. Warm and halts are related to each as temperature status -liquid to ice. Nothing else makes sense in any way. It definitely doesn’t hint in any way a transition from hot to cold =warm and then stops. Warm water halts just means simply; flowing water to frozen (halts).

            IMO it is the meaning.

          • Bob –

            Maybe warm is a reference to temperature. For example my daughter tells me I am warm when I get close to something she has hidden.

            Or maybe it’s just a word needed for the alteration of where warm waters.

            Lugnutz

          • it does insinuate that the the waters would of had to of been in motion to be able to come to a halt at the where.

          • I’ll continue to promote this….you can’t stop me….HAHAHA!!!

            When one turns off a faucet, ALL WATER halts….hot, cold, and warm.

            It is also simple. It is also similar to what a child would say if asked…(while “in the wood”/wilderness)…..

            “Where do you think warm waters would stop?”

            I use stop, because most children may not understand the word halt.

            Try it….see what they say…build up a story and a hypothetical adventure for the child….and then ask.

            I’d loan you my kid…but he’s all grown up.

            :o)

            Good luck.

          • It’s imagination…. lots of could be’ s but the scrapbook story, ” river bathing is best” tells of one way to imagine it

          • Alset;

            I have expressed this thought before, but you may have missed it. To me, wwwh refers to the place where two bodies of water merge/converge.

            Let’s say that you have “Tepid Stream” – it flows down and meets “Cooler River”. At the point where they merge the waters of “Tepid Stream” cease to exist. They are now a part of “Cooler River” – so, “Tepid Stream” HALTED – ceased to be an entity, and became a bigger “Cooler River”. Make sense?

            It does to me – JDA

          • JDA,

            All things are possible in interpretation and possibilities galore with this. I just think halts means stop. I can’t in my mind justify this as being descriptive of a transition of an element form that still moves after a change in form. Halts is stop to me. It could mean 2 temperature states of form of water-warm to frozen; it could mean warm waters come to a point of restricted movement; or it could mean a tension in a relationship. No special knowledge required as ff has said. Heck one could interpret it as what a baby feels when it is born as I have gone alone in there lol. (Just humor)

            I can theoretically strong, place warm to frozen and tension in a relationship resulting in a competition of historical significance that changed allot of things , all within my area.

            I believe he does describe a waterfall in the poem but I can’t think with certainty that the chest is at a waterfall-it is just within the journey to the chest. The one point in my mind about halt being frozen water is that it really infers cold temperature/weather; so it is sketchy in a way of seasonal influence. It would have to be winter to observe this. To ff “warm” means “comfortable” in his Q&A with middle school. So, I am analyzing my thought on this again.

            So, what you say here doesn’t make sense to me reading the poem. Doesn’t mean I think you are wrong. It just doesn’t flow in the simplicity of the poem IMO.

            Just opinions here.

            Cheers

          • The wonder of the poem, and of the chase, is that we can each choose to interpret any line, sentence or even every word in a manner that makes sense to us…or our solve.

            You MAY be right, or then again, I may be right. Let’s hope that one of us gets the chance to actually prove it – JDA

          • Tim;

            That is an opinion that I obviously do not share. I at least expressed an opinion on the subject. I have not seen you express an opinion regarding the possibilities. Why not get in the discussion rather than just criticizing? JDA

          • “Tim;
            That is an opinion that I obviously do not share. I at least expressed an opinion on the subject. I have not seen you express an opinion regarding the possibilities. Why not get in the discussion rather than just criticizing? JDA”

            Hi JDA….my posts aren’t written to criticize…..but if you took my “with that thinking you will never find it”…..I was trying to lighten the mood….that is why I added “JK!”….just kidding.

            If one cannot have fun with the whole quest – including other seekers, why even bother to get involved.

            You know as well as I do, that there are all kinds of theories about what to do, where to go, why to go, when to go, who to bring, what to wear, etc…etc….the items are endless it seems.

            If I offended you in some way…..please regard this as my apology…..there wasn’t any intention….ever.

            Maybe you just misread what I wrote.

            “Why not get in the discussion rather than just criticizing?”
            – You honestly think that I don’t get involved or give out helpful ideas?

            I think you may be missing many of my posts.

            Cheers JDA and of course – good luck in your quest.

          • Tim;

            I overlooked your faucet input. Sorry – Your faucet theory doesn’t work for me. “Begin your quest at the faucet in the cabin, and take your quest in the canyon down”. (sic) There may be thousands and thousands of places – North of Santa Fe, where waters converge. How many faucets in cabins, motels, hotels and even houses 8.5 miles north of Santa Fe to the Canadian border. IMPOSSIBLE to figure out which one. Just not logical to me – but keep thinking that way Tim, and you will remain on my list of least likely to find it. Just sayin – JDA 🙂

          • I think understand that…I am only talking foliage. Less foliage better viewing.

            Granted…. snow may be a factor too…”the chest is wet”….IMO – could go from wet to dry due to seasons.

            I also agree that it is “hidden” under some type of rock structure.

            I actually had a dream of that moment, with two other people looking at the same place.

            Weird?…..maybe……premonition?…..who knows.

            :o)

            I can only hope!! LOL

            Another thought I had…..similar thinking…

            I have always thought there is a waterfall involved…and it is associated to the “creek” we seem to need to find.

            So in a nutshell….we are thinking alike.

            Cheers.

          • Tim –

            I think a waterfall could be there but not a big show stopper. Maybe what we will find is more secreted. The kind of place you relax and listen to the water with no one around. The kind of place that after fishing a creek 50 times you finally take note of off in the distance off the path.

            Lugnutz

  19. He says, The clues did not exist when he was a kid but most of the places they refer to did. What…some did not exist…

    • One can erect a cabin or home on a piece of property after he was a kid. Maybe a hotel, bar, motel, watery….etc…etc….growth of tourism is probably a factor.

  20. Hey Lugnutz,

    Not to overly complicate it too much, there are other WWWH examples to consider as well.

    Like the Salton Sea in SoCal – a shallow, saline, endorheic rift lake. Endorheic is a a closed drainage basin that retains water and allows no outflow…………… Such a basin may also be referred to as a closed or terminal basin or as an internal drainage system. I cannot say unequivocally, but I suspect there are many natural basins in the RMs.

    Geothermal – how about geothermal features such as pools, vents, even geysers that are no longer active.

    Man-made structures – how about something like a swimming pool(s) built to serve clientele back in the day that no longer exist……..at a very famous National Park?

    Or even more abstract. How about a famous wartime chase involving an steam locomotive that ran out burnable wood? No fuel, no “warm water” to make it go. Or another steam locomotive used to bring visitors to a now defunct gateway town that no longer exists outside YNP. Sure, those 2 examples may be a stretch, but we are always encouraged, almost scolded, if we don’t use our imaginations.

    There are other examples to but it wouldn’t be much fun if I listed all of them.

    I hope you don’t take this as rubbing your nose in it as that is not my intent. I am simply trying to encourage you and other searchers to open your minds to all possibilities, because if you don’t, IMO your chances of success are greatly diminished.

    Take care………

    • At one point in the quest…one must make decisions of specific items that are direct connections to the poem.

      If not, the irregularitaries WILL get the best of you and you won’t succeed.

      Good luck.

    • Pinatubocharlie –

      I am open too all sorts of theories. Butbibsay what I’m talking about. Instead of some train or some gate I name them.

      One wwh is a reference to steam trains a steam train line and a station. That station is in Anaconda. That line was the first in the country to convert from steam to electric. Quite literally the water halted.

      Lugnutz

  21. “So hear me all and listen good”

    This line in the poem is the one that is really different in how its presented in context of delivery flow to the rest of the poem. This is in a way all about sound, not words on a page, not a view, not an object or location ect. It is him speaking. The only line in the poem where he is referring to his sound of his VOICE. So, I look at the words in the poem and these words and this line is indicating sound when the poem is about reading- not him reading it to us.

    So to me it means the area or place is known for allot to do with sound,noise, music ,entertainment. Or perhaps this line is a name of a place that within the name denotes an act or description of sound?

    I may have made this sound complex but in simple sake of the line, it would be simple if this is what it means? Like Yell or sun colored rock could be Yellowstone as a simple example. I just think he is referring to sound here in the poem that could actually mean a place, seasonal activity or name. This line is different from all others.

    What do you think?

      • I can hear you Geydelkon but I cant understand what your saying . Are you saying come over? LOL

        • Oyez… The term is still in use by the Supreme Court of the United States. At the beginning of each session, the marshal of the Court (Court Crier) announces: “The Honorable, the Chief Justice and the Associate Justices of the Supreme Court of the United States. Oyez! Oyez! Oyez! All persons having business before the Honorable, the Supreme Court of the United States, are admonished to draw near and give their attention, for the Court is now sitting. God save the United States and this Honorable Court.”

          Also look up Town crier.

    • Good thinking……I’ve also thought that the place may have an echo-like feature or connection.

      Interesting you would bring in sound as a mechanism for the solve.

      • Nice! Echo-like feature or connection. Interesting! He is saying Hear and Listen which is sound. It’s like ‘shhhh; listen,hear that?’

    • “So hear me all and listen good” – Again, I take the simplistic view – “Hey there, pay attention this is a warning and a clue.”

      Coupled with the rest of the sentence – “Your effort will be worth the cold.” – – – Hidden within these words is a warning and a clue!

      Sorry, I can not divulge more that that. Just my opinion – JDA

  22. “Put in below the home of Brown”

    Perhaps the current city or town was a first family’s ranch/homestead that encompassed the main footprint of the current town-family name Brown. So maybe not just a house but meaning the homestead became the town. Maybe the home of Brown is like saying ,’that land over there is the home of the Hatfield’s and over there that land is home of the McCoy’s’.

    With that in mind; there would be lots of references to those names in the town paying tribute to the history of the land. Such as: schools , parks, roads , paths, restaurants/pubs, cemeteries with Brown in the name . Menu items or drinks in restaurants/pubs like The Devil Anse burger (Hatfield) or Asa steak( McCoy) as an example.

    There would be Brown referenced all over town because it was at some point The Homestead of Brown. Doing a bit of research would see that. Maybe, just perhaps. I found such a town like this. There is also more than on old house of Brown there also.

    So, put in below the home of Brown could mean maybe, south of town, canyon below town ect.

    This is just thoughts on how I came up with my solve and decided to share some of it.

    Perhaps this will be the year that someone brings the chest to the Fennboree …haha.

  23. There ARE several meanings to the word “Brown”, besides being an actual house (home) of the “Brown” family.
    I’m not talking about fish, bears etc.
    F said to research each word, look them up. Just like the meanings of “several” and “few”, words have meanings we never thought of.

    Did you know “halt” could also mean LIMP? F could have used the slang version of the meanings too.
    Take for instance… (for our Colorado searchers!)…”blaze”, meaning to light up and get “wasted”. I agree , to my uncertain knowledge, that F doesn’t “blaze”! But, you get the picture.

    My grandpa used to sing an old song, “The Warm Waters of Home”, an old WW1 song. I can’t even find it on google. He passed in 1998 at the age of 103! “Warm Waters” refers to loving/kind.

    Just thought I’d spout what’s left of my mind, ’cause so many are looking for the exact word as a location.

    F said (paraphrasing) that there are a lot of WW’S in the RMs, but which one. Seeker can dredge up that exact quote.
    To me, it opens up a whole world of variations and meanings.
    I’ve got my “solve”, but thought I’d throw that out there.
    Be safe!
    ¥Peace ¥

    • Someone unfamiliar with your poem receives a message that says “meet me where warm waters halt, somewhere in the mountains north of Santa Fe”. Would they be able to work out where to go? If they can’t, would they need the whole poem, another stanza, or just a line or word to help them on their way? ~Phil Bayman 
      There are a few words in the poem that are not useful in finding the treasure Phil, but it is risky to discount any of them. You over simplify the clues. There are many places in the Rocky Mountains where warm waters halt, and nearly all of them are north of Santa Fe. Look at the big picture, there are no short cuts. f 

      OK folks.. ya really need to take advantage of JCM’s hard work. Chasing Words of Forrest Fenn – by JCM

      BTW… if there are many wwh in the RM’s What does the “big picture” have to do with a single place? Better yet.. what do you think fenn means by “big picture”?
      Landscape? land features.
      All waters?
      Down the road thinking? 100, 1000 plus yrs…
      A single clue?
      Al the clues?
      Time? maybe time in fenn’s life span
      History or historical events?
      How many clues does it take to understand a location/place or find an answer?
      How does the big picture effect the comment; What took me so long?
      Or
      Does the need to start at the beginning have anything to do with wwh or is it what the “big picture” relate too?
      Do we actually have the physical understand of the big picture or is that simply an understanding of the entire poem?

      • Thanks for getting the correct quote, Seeker!
        I totally agree on your “Big Picture” comments.
        For 6yrs…6 long years, I’ve taken the poem as straight as it can be taken. But, now I’m thinking more directly, using ALL the definitions, and finding some really amazing places. Just a heads up. You can still think out of the box while in the box.
        Just my opinion.

        • Donna M,
          I have been a big believer that Multiple Meanings and usages of words are important. That alone would make the challenge of understanding the poem difficult. Words that mean more than one thing or usage, and each word is used with each meaning. Such as halt ; stop, a temporary change in direction, even limp… however in most cases I extent the usages as well. Such as limp to a step or to crawl along at a slower pace. This might relate to other words such as scant; small amount for example. Or even a few words such as in the wood; edge of a wooded area that meets an open area, or the term ‘in the saddle’… OR a saddle of a mountain pass ~ a passage way on the edge of a wood line or between a wooded area with a field like passable area to get through [ a physical match landscape for the poem…

          I’ll add another thought of word usage… warm… many like to use warm as a temperature, yet what temperature is warm? 33 degrees and above? below 212? or could it be a single comfort temp. such as; 98 degrees or the temp of the human body. The later makes more sense to me as it is a common know temp to all… not unlike fenn in river bathing finding the exact spot where hot water merged with cold and found that warm, comfortable spot to match his own body temp…

          Just thoughts.

          • “Begin it where warm waters halt.”

            Just to help the field out….

            “Warm Water” – noun
            https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/warm%20water

            “warmwaters” – adjective
            https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/warmwater

            The moral here is to determine if the word in the poem is a noun or an adjective.

            IMO – since it is written as “two words” in the poem, it is more than likely a reference to a noun. Since the adjective is just one word, this may be a good indicator that FF is referring to a noun.

            Just thinking out loud.

            God luck!

          • Tim,
            If a noun;
            noun
            noun/
            nounGrammar
            noun: noun; plural noun: nouns; noun: common noun; plural noun: common nouns; noun: proper noun; plural noun: proper nouns
            a word (other than a pronoun) used to identify any of a class of people, places, or things common noun, or to name a particular one of these proper noun.

            Wouldn’t it have to be capitalized? I mean, Brown is capped. IMO, it’s capped because it might represent the answer that has to be Capitalized.
            So if wwwh is a person, place or thing by name… would that need capitalizing as well? Even if it only meant as a reference to a name.
            Maybe not…idk…

          • “Wouldn’t it have to be capitalized?”

            The short answer is No. A noun can be “a river”. Notice I didn’t have to capitalize it.

            WWWH – edge of civilization – meets the noun category. A hotel, a lodge, cabin, etc….you get my meaning. One leaves warm water behind when they go into the woods. In fact…the water is turned off, if you were just taking a bath.

            As for your reference to the “hoB”.

            IMO – this is correct….because I did find “a home of Brown”.

            My search is located “below the home of Brown” and I have “put in” (BotG) in this location.

            So far, I seem to have solved the first four clues…..and IMO – all are solid.

            WWWH – edge of civilization

            Canyon down – this was a distance of about 50 miles from WWWH

            Put in below the home of Brown – 8.25 miles from the bottom of a canyon

            No place for the meek – a forest – probably BLM land to help negate some of the legal aspects for the searcher if they find Indulgence. I agree that this is the avenue FF would take….he seems to like to help others out….well in advance of their need.

            The end is Drawing nigh – archaic to the left. Now this may be a little tricky….because my solve involves…..”going to the left first, but then the road takes me to the right, but then I end up again being able to continue on the left.

            No paddle up your creek – this is my newest adventure to solve…..but I think I have come up with a very clever find. I think FF did a doozie of a play on words here. I have found two meanings that when combined, form a location. Am I right? Further study is in the works.

            The rest…..well….I think they all will fall into place as I continue to progress, but I do have ideas already established on what they refer to.

            Hope this helps someone.

            Best of luck!

          • Ever been on a narrow switch back road going up or down a mountain with hair pin turns? I have in my 4×4 done this and it was for 40 kms drive from 10000 ft to 5000 ft. This was 10 years ago in the Rockies, not searching for treasure. just a day event with friends to an old abandoned gold mine in BC . We could see all the way down while driving. If not careful, one false move and it is along way down to our deaths. I was white knuckle all the way driving-even walking it would be intimidating. My friends would scream periodically, fearful of imminent death lol . It was an exciting day.

            ” from there it’s no place for the meek”
            ” the end is ever drawing nigh”

            Just my thought on this.

          • Paddle= Switch= Switchback= the route you described?? Maybe relates the story of getting whipped by his dad in tftw? Sacajawea carried a paddle board pack frame and carried heavy loads for the L&C expedition. Just a few ideas, hope they help.

          • Hey “aMp” – it sounds like you are searching in Montana.

            So am I…..and what you have stated…..already in my notes from about three years ago.

            Good thinking, but my “paddle” reference isn’t related to the Native Americans…..but in truth…..I just happened upon it. Surprised me I didn’t think of it before…..it really is quite clever.

            Good luck.

          • Seeker;

            I know you do not like me responding to your posts, but you again make a couple of interesting comments. Capitalization of Brown. Brown trout – should it be capitalized? That depends on how it is used.

            “Are brown trout found in the four states mentioned in the chase?”

            Brown trout is not capitalized because it is not the first word in the sentence.

            “Brown Trout are found in most streams in the 4 states mentioned in the chase.”
            (Capitalized because it is the first word in the sentence.

            Both are correct, dependent upon usage. “…home of Brown…” could refer to brown trout – dependent on how it is used. Just a thought JDA

      • If you think about the number of possible WWWH, you realize that it’s impossible to select one with any degree of certainty without the injection of another ingredient. What is the other ingredient? IMO it’s imagination based on big picture thinking. Once you’ve generated that spark, come back to the poem and apply it. If you’re thinking is along the right lines, the poem will reward you big time!

        As for the rest, “Your destination is small, but its location is huge” is the way to go. All IMO.

        • Vox pop,
          Give an example…

          Even using imagination for what wwh might be is a dart throwing contest at best. I mean, how may trips does it take to locate such a place out of all the possibilities, even when attempting to find matching clues to go with it?

          Where is the ‘certainty beforehand’ and confidence fenn talks about. “I warned that the path would not be direct for those who had no certainty of the location beforehand, ***but sure for the one who did.” f***
          But more important…. why did searchers not know they had decipher the first two clues, and now “maybe” the first four clue and not know, even when on location…? Because the walked pass all the other clues and the chest.

          It’s not a matter of trying, it’s a matter of thinking. Sure, I mean people figured the first couple of clues, and unfortunately walked past the treasure. SF, podcast 11:40 min.

          • Hey @Seeker….this statement of yours….

            “It’s not a matter of trying, it’s a matter of thinking. ”

            ….has always been my mantra…..we NEED to think like Fenn…..nothing else matters…..what would he do.

            One can garner all kinds of ideas and suggestions, but in the long run, your thinking MUST be like Fenn’s.

            How does one achieve this…..

            Watch “Caddyshack” of course!

            DUUH!!

            ;o)

            Seriously…..we need to categorize the “subjective” – and then build on them to make an objective decision.

            Be the architect…..or in the least….reverse engineer what the original architect designed.

            Good luck!

          • Seeker, sometimes I think you’re your own worst enemy! 😉 Is it possible you might be thinking too much, and second guessing every possible avenue until it’s almost impassable?

            What I’m talking about is really lateral thinking. I can’t think of a suitable example off the top of my head, but I do know that once you have THE place WWWH, you’ll be absolutely confident it’s right. Of course, it’s a long haul from there, but you really do need to concentrate on that one place.

            There are two possible methods that I know of to unlock WWWH. One uses the big picture approach, and the other focuses on something you already know… Both will work, and each will give you something you can use later on. If you can find both of these, you have a major advantage.

            There is absolutely no dart throwing involved, and you won’t need to make multiple trips to this place. However, unless you’re some sort of demi-god, you’ll probably not be able to solve the whole poem from your armchair, even though it’s theoretically possible.

          • Sorry Seeker….I was just saying it that way, because you posted it.

            If it was from FF…it doesn’t matter…..it seems to be very true in many regards.

            Thanks for clarifying sir.

          • Voxpops ~ “Seeker, sometimes I think you’re your own worst enemy! ”

            LOL yep, your not the first to claim so. However, I can honestly say, I look at the poem from ever angle I can imagine. While many are stuck on the stomping point to point method [ which could be the correct way to go ] I’m a believer fenn chose a poem for a good reason to present the clues… freedom of word choices and usage. The major problem I see with the stomping method is the lack of using the entire poem… only concentrating on 9 lines in the poem. By most standards of solve or explanation I have read on solutions… stanza 5 and 6 don’t hold any clues at all. Why do many think this?

            Right from the get go…imo… by eliminating 15 lines in the poem as not having directional clues automatically starts force fitting 9 lines to have “all the information” or all the clues.

            Honestly, that baffles me.

          • Seeker, I think you’re right to look at the poem from every angle, and not to discount anything. Those who ignore words, lines, or even whole stanzas (!) do so at their own peril!

          • Seeker;

            We do not often agree. but you statement regarding 9 lines vs using 24 lines I 100% agree with. Saying that stanza’s 5 and 6 do not contain directional clues, I 100% agree with. YEA we have at least two things we can agree on. JDA

          • OOPS My BAD – I agree 100% that stanza’s 5 and 6 DO contain directional clues. Sorry – JDA

          • Hi Seeker,

            “The major problem I see with the stomping method is the lack of using the entire poem… only concentrating on 9 lines in the poem.”

            Where are you getting this notion? Certainly not from me. In my opinion, there are clues or hints in EVERY LINE of EVERY STANZA, and the “stomping” method works just fine.

    • Just out of curiosity frank, how big/large are we talking? I ask because searcher has been at the location of of the first two clues [ whatever they may be ] and walked by the other remaining clues and the chest.
      There has been much calculation on distance of clues or between clues… but fenn stated; “If you can’t make two trips from your car to your solve in several hours, then don’t go.”

      Just a guessing, a hike at 2 miles per hour with two trips involved, and if the poem is the only way to get there, it doesn’t seem the clues cover a very large area of “traveling”. Unless… and this is just a thought… the way that many read the poem is wrong. Could the poem be explaining a very large area… even states apart.. and still be of one location that the clues refer to? A “contiguous” journey of the clues all representing a small location.

      In that scenario… all the clues represent a large area and a small destination at the same time… or the solve location. I’ll add, that the quote above could mean a complete solve beforehand, and all one needs to do is walk to that ending point to retrieve the chest [ hypothetically ].

      • seeker what I meant that wwwh as being a large area I meant it as being a reservoir and yes imo opinion all clues are large and I mean it as you can walk right to it and not know you are there and im saying that all clues are as large as a reservoir that’s why you look for it (chest) on a map and drive there

        • to travel twice to where he hid the tc and twice to his car is less then 1/4 mile each way and to carry all that weight in the wood and its not like he was walking where the ground was flat its still not an easy trip to take

      • You echo the “macro / micro” way of looking at the poem.

        This is what I think needs to be done. Macro to find the region…..micro to find the chest.

        As for your talking point of “distance between clues”…..this is good to also think like this.

        IMO – distance is relative only to the seeker.

        My first search had me go 50+ miles from my WWWH and then to a canyon. I then embedded the “8.25 miles” that FF mentions as in “north of SF” and it freaked me out that it actually places me at a specific turn-off.

        Coincidence? I think not.

        Anyhow…..from this point, I think I went 6 miles into the forest and it took me to my “botg” location…..a 1700 feet walk through the woods.

        Of course my search did not net me the chest….but the usage of distance is very important. We just need to figure it out. Are there measurements embedded within the poem that we cannot see?

        I have no clue to that level, but may begin some work to see if FF did incorporate this type of thinking.

        Good post!

      • seeker – if they had the first two clues right ands went passed the other clues – I think its because they were looking for small clues that you could see when imo and like I said to me the clues are large land formations that you could be walking on then and not know it jmo

        • To determine how someone might have two clues correct and yet miss the rest, it might be worthwhile to think as an armchair solver.

  24. Appears as though the cat is out of the bag now. Wont be long till its a foot race. “…few on in tight focus with a word that is ‘key'”
    On in…..not are in…not a typo. First line….gone alone in there.
    gONe alone IN there. ‘A’ word. Alone.
    “Leave your partner in the car.”
    “You share your solve with a friend…Gucci…Walmart.”
    Dont share your solve with ANYBODY. Not your brother, ff. Not a soul.
    just sayin and a matter of opinion.

    • Ron ~ ” “…few on in tight focus with a word that is ‘key’”….”gONe alone IN there. ‘A’ word. Alone.”

      Fenn “…Many are giving serious thought to the clues in my poem, but only a few are in tight focus with a word that is key.”

      I’m confused… what exactly are you saying?

      • Seeker,
        i have in my notes that the actual quote was ‘on in’ and not ‘are in’. In the unlikely chance i have incorrectly noted this subtle yet huge variance i appologize. I will try to find where this appears and direct you towards it upon doing so.
        There is so much as you know.
        I thought it strange wording but didnt change it and it did come from somewhere.

  25. If you start at Warm Springs Montana, the poem seems to work going north and if you go south, going north through the canyon in between the towns Deerlodge and Drummond is the home of the Brown trout, below that turn right to Garnet Ghost Town, no place for the meek, you will run into secret gulch and Finn gulch. From Warm Springs Montana going south before you reach Butte Montana you run into Browns gulch, turn right and it will take you to Wise River, the blaze could be the road Pioneer Trail? TO MANY PLACES, I THINK FENN FORCED THE POEM TO FIT HIS SPOT,.lol

    • Trouble is, Thomas, that people have had similar thoughts about places that stretch from Santa Fe to the Canadian border. If there’s nothing in the poem to corroborate your hypothesis – and particularly if “force-fitting” is necessary, you might need to reconsider. From what I’ve seen, the poem is very elegantly constructed in relation to on-the-ground movement, and does not require any force-fitting.

        • We all post opinions, BobbyFrank. My opinion is that from what I have discovered in the poem and on the ground (and yes, I have discovered things on the ground that I believe are Chase-related), the poem is elegantly constructed and no force-fitting is required. The reason I say this is that once you have discovered “it”, things start to make sense. That’s not to say I’m not delusional, but that would require an opinion I’m not qualified to make…

    • thomas,

      I took a quick look at the locations you mention… unless I’m wrong… The trail is 5 miles long, with the spring in one county and the river and trail having a pretty good distance to travel. And Butt MT is in another county… Fenn stated; {paraphrasing} searcher walked past the remaining seven clues and the chest.

      In reviewing your locations, there are many many miles to cover… how do you consider the miles needed to “walk” pass all the clues and the chest? Just curious.

      • I thought about what Fenn said about that, go back and watch that again, if you notice his hand movement, first he pauses as he speaks about it and his hand flattens out like a car as his hand shots acoss, he didn’t use his two fingers when he said “walked right bye ” so to me they could have drove right bye.

        • hi thomas….uhm everyone else!….hehehe

          Here is a new thought I haven’t seen…..

          FF built up the poem over 10 years…..and probably taking his time on making sure that his poem is as vague as possible, in order for us to work extremely hard at solving it.

          A similar action is taking by forensics or criminologists…..they both a meticulous in their actions to solve a crime. Let’s put on our “alternative facts” hats on for a few moments, shall we??

          IMO – the earliest interviews – namely the videos that show body language and early interviews of FF – are going to be our best sources for mistakes and possible “unspoken clues”.

          Why?

          Mistakes. As the years progress, FF becomes more and more astute at what he wants to say, or even repeats something he stated previously….and it is usually word-for-word.

          I don’t think this is the case for his very first interviews. He wasn’t as prepared he is now. Oh….he may think he was, but even he stated, “there was something I said that I regret”…..or something like that…..

          it really doesn’t matter what he actually said, but the topic he spoke upon….he stated something that could be helpful…..he made a mistake.

          If I recall correctly, one of his very first interviews was at some sort of office with a bunch of reporters and camera pointing at him. Does anyone know a direct link to that interview…..and it could very well be his announcement publicly, I just don’t know or can’t find it.

          If one pays attention to the subtle things, then one may find the needed help to complete the mission.

          Thanks in advance.

    • I once had three complete solves starting at Warm Springs, follow it south to Anaconda, go into town before the fish hatchery (hoB) to smelter road (no place for the meek),
      to the “world’s tallest brick chimney” (Waters high) etc.
      (Two other variations not using chimney, but in same area)

      All ended on EPA condemned private land – Darn. My first three solves – a GREAT learning experience. JDA

      • JD and Thomas –

        My solve in the area begins at the 1898 bldg in Anaconda that housed the original train depot.

        The train line was the first to abandon steam power. So warm waters halt. Other people have suggested that warm waters halt is a reference to steam trains generally.

        Lugnutz

        • Close lug. Try the building on the intersection of front and main street. I think it is 900 main street. That too was a train station, the ol’ B&A Pacific. That is your WWWH. It doesn’t matter, Anaconda could be, but it’s what he meant. IMO. To save time with research, it was built by Robert Nickel, is currently a hardware store, two arch entrance, just to start. I’m sure you can figure the canyon. The 3rd clue you have to be there. Sever the end of “nigh” and you have the last three letters of what is drawing nigh. “nig”, Mount Haggin. Google Earth, around 30,000 feet high, look at the landscape. Look at the nuggets on the frog map. 🙂 And no, I’m not sharing the blaze. A bone sense you are in that area. The hike is a hike, no go in Winter. Riding a bike down is awesome.

          • yup, the BA&P. There is a train car just around the corner which doubles as a museum/historical piece.

          • Consider that train car as the blaze for a moment, is it white? Or burnt reddish with emblazoned whjite letters BA&P ?

          • I’d also consider that as old and new. And I don’t see it going anywhere in the next 100yrs. ..ironic

          • Sorry aMp, didn’t read your whole post. Going by memory, it just may be burnt reddish with emblazoned white letters BA&P. Just don’t remember, it’s clean and shiny. But again, it’s not the blaze.

        • Hi Guys, pardon the interruption. I found it interesting that there is also an Anaconda Poker. Not that it means anything one way or the other but something interesting that I ran across in researching Anaconda. Life is a game of poker…
          http://www.bicyclecards.com/how-to-play/anaconda-poker/

          P.S. Please excuse me if this has already been brought up somewhere. Please continue…

          • Lol, nice find Ramona. Never thought of that. It’s interesting if anything. Still, a good find…
            Add a joker or two, lol…
            If you follow the direction in “Anaconda”, which is “anac” on (on being the instruction) “da”, you get an anagram for Canada. Now, not that this means anything but, remember the WWWH website, when the recording repeated “yankee, hotel, foxtrot”? or yhf, well, yhf is the call sign for an airport in Hearst Canada. Being that there is a Hearst lake in Anaconda, kinda interesting. All just fun coincidence, especially when lower hearst lake fills and recedes with the melting snow, creating an island at certain times. Nice place for a kid to think he’s Capt Kidd, burying treasure on an island and then the island falling back into the water. Would make for a muddy, wet chest. Ohhh, and, Lower Hearst Lake was once known as Frog Lake to the locals, there are Brown frogs I think….I guess you could say it would be below the home of Brown. Page 58 in TTOTC has a picture of it I think.:)Of course that tree stub that looks like it has arms in the air is no longer there, but was once. Oh well, the island is only 500′ from the trail, and 200′ from a picture someone took of the area in 2007, which shows the tree. Just such a far hike being that no motorized vehicles are allowed.

            Like I said, just fun coincidences, but good find Ramona.

      • To close to town, JDA. Have a far walk, remember. The forest and mountain area is managed by the bureau of land management. And some private property.

  26. Just a little frustrated sorry, my Montana solve starting in Warm Springs was working for me until I reached the blaze and nothing, my solve for New Mexico started in Las Vegas NM going in the canyon to Hermit’s Peak, another dead end. Someone on this site had a good one along the Yellowstone River on Nye road, I followed that and it takes you to Woodbine Campground, just a mile up a trail is the Woodbine water fall, if you’re brave and in the wood, the water just looks cold, your efforts will be worth the cold. If anyone is in that area might be a good spot to look. Just thinking out loud, thanks for reading

    • thomas,
      Why ya frustrated? All any of us are doing is BSing on how brilliant we hope we are…lol.
      I have to ask…most of what you’re saying leads to names of place… you may or may not know… I’m a big advocator against names of place a clue. Major reasoning is fenn’s comment he was thinking “down the road”…thousands of years. Even in a point by point method of solving the poem, that seems unlikely to me a clue refers to a name… such as Molly Brown’s home.

      I mean, as we speak there is talk about removing Lee’s statue, which is a historical monument, and if that can be done… why would something like that [a man made item or registered point] be a “clue” by name? Personally, I have to think along the lines of natural points. Points that have been around and will be for some time… named or not. But that’s just my thinking.

      • Very good point seeker, you know what’s funny is l live in Hannibal Missouri, home of Molly Brown definitely too far to walk, lol. Question , if you’re not from the area he speaks of about natural places, how would we ever know what he’s talking about?

        • I look at Brown slightly different than most. I think Brown is capitalized to refer to the answer that needs capitalization.
          Example: If I said, home of Gold, gold shouldn’t be capitalized. However with a little thinking gold is measured in troy ounces etc. Could the hint here in this example be the city of ‘Troy’ which give a location?

          Yet lets take the thought a step further and add ‘home’… not a house, such as Molly Brown’s house, but habitation.. which can mean dwelling or area lived within.
          Is Brown meant in the same way? Not a name of ‘brown’ needed but something related to a location needing to be capitalized. A place of habitation, or know for, by that area it might represent?

          Just another way of looking at clues.

          • This is a great example on why I suggested to ‘categorize” ideas and suggestions, because eventually the seeker has to make a specific decision on one “answer” and move forward with it.

            We all know that FF used various meanings for the directions, what we don’t know is the exact meaning.

            I do agree with your thinking too. Dual meanings are ever present in the poem, even layer upon layer…..forcing us to work for the answer.

            “It isn’t impossible, but difficult.” – FF

            “Meaning….It is solvable.” – Tim (ZosoRocks)

    • Thomas I spent a few days there last year and even went up to the top of the Woodbine Falls. Not a good idea just a little steep for the last couple hundred feet. Searched every little island all the way down. A very beautiful place with actually several falls and a bunch of nice fishing spots on the way down. There was a band on fishing last fall because of a bacteria in the water. They were preventing any water activities that may of spread it. I had a great time there and will go back. Stayed in Absarokee Mt. Great place and rethinking a place of retirement weather during summer months. No bugs and dry compared to the eastern cooler climates. Let me know if you have any good ideas that way. Elevation changes very quickly there and I felt it for a couple weeks.
      Condor

  27. “There will be no paddle up your creek.”

    Interesting choice of words,huh?

    Is this a dry creek, whereas, no boat or kayak is needed because of the dryness, not enough water, muddy, etc.

    In many places int he world, “frogs” love creeks…..and FF mentions many times his affinity with frogs. Shoot – he even compared his cancer battle with a muddy creek. Are these subtle hints in TTotC?

    Well…IMO – there is actually another “definition” for one of the words in this line, that possibly gives the seeker another “name” or place to go.

    If others mention it, then I too will, but until then, I think I will have to keep it under wraps.

    What are your thoughts?

    • A couple places I’ve been looking, I think there was a creek called Dry creek, good point. This part could also just mean “you will not have any problems getting their, just heavy loads and water high. “

    • Tim;

      Or there is the other possibility – water is flowing so rapidly, and there are too many boulders and small waterfalls in this stream that it is not possible to navigate in a raft, canoe or kayak.
      Just a thought – JDA

    • Tim,

      In keeping with my theoretical solve perspective, I have 2 potential meanings to that line relative of sync-link to my wwwh meaning in prior stanza.

      With wwwh- meaning frozen water fall.

      Perhaps the meaning of; “there will be no paddle up your creek”, followed by, ” just heavy loads and water high”, means ( very gray perspective ) from the bottom of frozen water fall perspective could mean you would have to ice clime ( climbing gear) up the frozen creek. Not that you need to of course but a perspective bottom to top. I can already hear, ‘ that is just silly thinking’. Just a poetic description on my part.

      A second potential meaning is that the area is known for allot of thunder and lightening and therefore lots of rain. At the known elevations of 5000 ft -10200 ft in the Rockies, the weather is only about 120 days of nice sunny weather a year and the other 8 months is rather cold.

      • I guess I don'[t ever see myself in the camp that has FF “rock climbing” or donning this type of gear….and then scaling rock wall with 20 lbs.

        Especially at 80 years old.

        I just don’t see how this would be “safe” for the inexperienced searcher in the wilderness.

        Remember – FF – put out clues to keep the seeker safe. He also mentions being safe quite often.

        Rock climbing is not safe if you are not experienced. Even then, it is still a risk for expert climbers.

        You may want to rethink that path…..it probably isn’t something an 80 year old man would embark upon.

        But hey….he was an adventurous guy….who knows….I just don'[t see it happening, especially when “a kid could stumble upon the chest”.

        Good luck Al.

        • Tim,

          I meant just a poetic observation of point of view IF you were to go up the frozen creek, you would need heavy gear to ice climb. Of course this is not what FF did and he very clearly said it is physically easy to do the search and no special equipment needed-go where an 80 year old can just walk to.. I said it was a very gray perspective in poetry speak.

          I really think , as my second point, that it is thunder and lightening and heavy rain fall most likely.. My area is known for frequent thunder, lightening and heavy downpours. Lots of water falls around there.

          Or just allot of rocks boulders and water high, again that is a water fall description.

    • Tim—

      What has actually interested me about that sentence is the contraction used: “There’ll be no paddle up your creek”.

      If Mr. Fenn has been very careful about the words used then there has to be a reason for the contraction. At least it would appear to be so.

      • For my solve, it makes no difference. Poetically, it makes no difference – the number of syllables is the same There’ll = 2 syllables and There will = 2 syllables.

        I don’t think that it is a big deal. Just the way Forrest chose to say the same thing. Just my opinion. JDA

          • June 9th thru 11th are the dates for the 2017 Fennboree. Cynthia and Desertphile are cohosts this year and they tell me that the location in 2017 will be at Hyde State Park again. I think all who attended in 2016 will agree that the location was great and the park staff were very welcoming and accomodating.

        • Oz10—-
          I have considered it a little, yes. Recently Forrest shared his story with “Angel” in it.
          I noticed that Forrest said a hole e “sniffled” into her hankie, and then later he says she “giggled” and her hair looked nice.

          This opens up the possibility that he is hinting that words with double letters may be important in some way.

          “There’ll” is really not used very much. So the double “L” kind of intrigues me to be very honest.

          • Forgot to add “there’ll be no paddle up your creek”—- three double letter words very close together.

          • Double symbols have Native American meanings

            ( II ) Dakota/the antlered male elk
            Chinook/buffalo

          • Sparrow–
            Following your logic and thinking why -there will- did not work there. If, and only if, the emphasis should be on the ‘ll then I take it as a description of a word or set of words that we should be looking for.
            Maybe with double L in them? Paddle also means mix or stir. Maybe within two L’s

          • Oz10—

            One other possibility is that FF wanted the sentence to have (7) words in it, not (8) so instead of “there will” he chose “There’ll”. He kept the two L’s but limited the sentence to 7 words. I have no idea why, but just thought I’d throw that in there. 🙂

          • The main reason Forrest used “there’ll” instead of “there will” is simply cadence. He didn’t want the line to have 9 syllables — he wanted 8 to match the other three lines of the stanza. I know JDA wrote above that he thought that both options have 2 syllables, but he’s mistaken. There’ll is one syllable, not two.

          • Zap, why then does that logic does not work in the very first line? Why didn’t he use ‘As I’ve gone alone in there’ therefore reducing it by one syllable to better match the following 6 sylls. on line 2?

          • Zap;

            I dis agree, but so what? No big deal either way. I hear two – you hear one.

            All in the ear of the listener – JDA

          • Hi JDA — you’re right, it’s much ado about nothing. And you can choose to believe it’s two syllables if you want. But I’ll, you’re, they’ll, there’ll, she’ll and he’ll are in fact all one syllable. (When spoken, there’ll and they’ll sound almost indistinguisable — phonetically like “thell”).

            When you say that stanza aloud, but replace there’ll with there will, you will hear that it ruins the cadence.

          • Hi JDA — you’re right, it’s much ado about nothing. And you can choose to believe it’s two syllables if you want. But I’ll, you’re, they’ll, there’ll, she’ll and he’ll are in fact all one syllable. (When spoken, there’ll and they’ll sound almost indistinguisable — phonetically like “thell”).

            When you say that stanza aloud, but replace there’ll with there will, you will hear that it ruins the cadence.

          • Hi Oz10 – “Zap, why then does that logic does not work in the very first line? Why didn’t he use ‘As I’ve gone alone in there’ therefore reducing it by one syllable to better match the following 6 sylls. on line 2?”

            The answer, in my opinion, is that there is so much going on in the first stanza that Forrest couldn’t change the “I have” to “I’ve” without ruining one of his hints. You have to admit that the stanza already sounds rather odd as it is, and it’s the only stanza with a 6-syllable line. He had more flexibility in the third stanza (because he wasn’t trying to conceal as much), so there was no need to foul up the cadence by having the only 9-syllable line in the poem. That’s my take on it.

            But if you have an angle that you’re exploring that plays off the double letters, I say that’s as valid as any other approach I’ve heard. Forrest certainly has a penchant for alliteration (with his name, how could he not?): Great Gatsby, borderline biddies, Robert Redford, pineapple pie, strawberry shortcake, lapis lazuli, big buffalo bulls, dying daffodil, Gilbert Gaul, Hanoi Hilton, snake school, Green Giant, and of course those confounding double omegas.

          • Ok, that might be an explanation and you seemed to suggest that there is no alliterations related to your solve. That short list you posted here, does it not have more weight than the few random instances of TFTW you found?

          • Hi Oz10 — correct, alliteration plays no part in my solution (though I certainly was open to the possibility that it would — it just didn’t turn out that way.)

            “That short list you posted here, does it not have more weight than the few random instances of TFTW you found?”

            I have found a LOT more instances of BTFTW than “a few”, and they are not random — I just don’t bother sharing them with anyone here because the audience is not receptive, and everyone has made up their mind that that line of the poem merely describes some distance that the poem-solver has to unravel. Personally, I think it’s the hardest clue to solve, which is the reason that the few that figured out the first two clues (whether they were sure they had or not) went blasting past the remaining seven — they did not understand the significance of “Not far, but too far to walk.”

          • Zap, got it. You seemed to have studied multiple angles to this thing. I am still working one method at a time.

          • “Begin it where warm waters halt
            And take it in the canyon down,
            Not far, but too far to walk.
            Put in below the home of Brown.”

            “Not far, but too far to walk.”
            – is a distance…..remember – FF drove to the location.

            Zap wrote:
            “they did not understand the significance”

            First off “zap”…none of this post has any disrespect within it, but I will speak very directly to what you have posted. Take it as such….nothing bad….just a specific point I am making.

            Without posting how you do know the proper significant, how can you make that claim at all?

            Odd.

            I doubt you have something….otherwise, you would have posted something that shows the forum that you actually have delved into the level of thinking FF is poking us to get.

            With just posting…..”I have found a LOT more instances of BTFTW than “a few”, and they are not random — I just don’t bother sharing them with anyone here because the audience is not receptive”

            ….tells me that you are just guessing…like the rest of us.

            how do you know the thousands of readers aren’t receptive. You don’t. Of course there will be people who don’t believe what you say is true and helpful…..it happens to me as well….it happens to us all.

            I personally, don’t care what others think of my posts and writings. They can believe me or not. They can trash what I say all day/year long. I don’t care. I am not here for them, though I will help others end this misery…..*smiles*…..by giving out helpful things I have come across.

            FYI – FF stated one only needs the poem, a good map, a flashlight, a sandwich…..and confidence.

            I for one….have all of those. How come I don’t have the chest yet? How come you don’t?

            Think about the answer before you provide one, okay?

            To provide nothing is not helping anyone, not even yourself. We post to receive feedback – good and bad…..it helps define the poem and hopefully – someone’s quest.

            I understand that you want to keep it all to yourself…..no problem…..so do I, it is the nature of a treasure quest…..always has been.

            Maybe you should review other known and current “treasure hunts” to get a better feel to what you are involved with.

            Have you ever watched….”The Curse of Oak Island”?
            http://www.history.com/shows/the-curse-of-oak-island

            Trust me….there are dialogues in these episodes that will help you understand why you are on this quest….and guess what….it may also even help you understand the quest you are on.

            Good luck.

          • Zap;

            For your sake, I hope that you have figured it out. For me, and only for me, I choose to think that when Forrest said in the preface to “Too Far to Walk” – that for him, now, 10 miles was TFTW.

            10 miles works PERFECTLY as the distance from my wwwh to just below my hoB. … but I could be wrong. COME ON spring!!! JDA

          • “Begin it where warm waters halt
            And take it in the canyon down,
            Not far, but too far to walk.
            Put in below the home of Brown.”

            “Not far, but too far to walk.”

            Sooooo enigmatic in the words being used.

            Can this be a reference for distance from the beginning of the quest – “Begin it WWWH”….thus the distance is “too far to walk”?

            Can it be a reference from “take it in the canyon down” and where that clue ends?

            I can see how it could be both.

            FF could be referencing that this first leg of the quest is “too far to walk”.

            It seems to be that way.

            Could it be related to the whole quest? After all, he drove to the location…..considering it was probably “too far to walk”.

            Just thinking out loud.

          • Sparrow ~”One other possibility is that FF wanted the sentence to have (7) words in it, not (8)”
            A few years back a thought I entertained about having certain word counts in each line [ structure of the poem ] was mainly about elevations points.
            Each line [word in a line] count to each stanza revealed a 4 digit count for that stanza, giving 6 elevation points.

            In one theory of mine… all the elevation points match the area… three mountain peaks… the lake surface… the start of the trail-head, and hopefully the exact location of the chest.

            This seemed to make sense to why I have was use in one line to I’ve in another. or there’ll to there will, I’ve to I have etc.
            I mean, the line “IF you are brave…” could have read IF you’re brave. So it seemed important enough to ask why would he write these words the way he did… when the words were worked on so hard for so long a time to get it just right.

            Many want to call the poem vague… I see their point, but… if fenn really felt like an architect creating the poem, Maybe the “structure” of the poem itself is just as important as the words meanings and usages.

            Just more rambling and rumbling…

          • Hi Zosorocks,

            Okay, long post from you, so for clarity I will add my comments in-line:

            “‘Not far, but too far to walk.’
            – is a distance…..remember – FF drove to the location.”

            Well, obviously when you move from one location to another you’re covering some distance. What I’ve been proposing since last summer is that this line isn’t describing a distance, it’s describing a specific place.

            “Without posting how you do know the proper significant, how can you make that claim at all?”

            Well, I can make the claim without identification, just as others make claims (e.g. JDA’s interpretation that it’s a 10-mile distance). What I think you mean is how can anyone else ~evaluate~ that claim, without knowing specifically what I believe it to be? In this, I’m in agreement with you — you can’t. And since I’m not willing to spill the beans as to what I believe it is, the best I can do is point out the things I’ve been pointing out: things from TTOTC that should make people suspicious; reminding everyone that Forrest says all the two-clue-solvers go right past the remaining clues. I think you would agree that if everyone is convinced NF, BTFTW is just a distance, and it turns out that it isn’t, wouldn’t that go a long way toward explaining the failure of anyone to get past the first two clues?

            “I doubt you have something… otherwise, you would have posted something that shows the forum that you actually have delved into the level of thinking FF is poking us to get.”

            Zoso, believe me I’ve tried, but most people are not experienced with assessing things like “statistical significance,” and so my mathematical arguments against randomness have fallen on deaf ears.

            “…how do you know the thousands of readers aren’t receptive. You don’t.”

            Well if they are, they haven’t been posting, with the exception of HMA who I know has figured out exactly what NF,BTFTW is. Actually, to not run afoul of the blog rules, let me amend that: he has exactly the same *interpretation* of NF, BTFTW that I do, but it’s still just an opinion. But I believe that opinion is so strongly supported by the book, the Scrapbooks, and most importantly the proximity to WWWH and the canyon down that I will never consider an alternative possibility.

            “FYI – FF stated one only needs the poem, a good map, a flashlight, a sandwich…..and confidence. I for one….have all of those. How come I don’t have the chest yet? How come you don’t? Think about the answer before you provide one, okay?”

            Well, I suspect the same answer applies to both of us … and to everyone else for that matter: we haven’t been to the right spot (smiles). That kinda goes without saying, doesn’t it? It’s winter, so the chest will remain safe for at least a few more months, whether anyone has solved all the clues or not.

            “To provide nothing is not helping anyone, not even yourself.”

            If you review my posts (and there have been a LOT of them), they are hardly NOTHING. I find that statement a bit offensive; I’ve provided many good hints and nudges to get people to think laterally. HMA figured out those hints, so I know I helped at least one person. (And given that only a tiny fraction of those who visit this blog ever post anything, the odds are that some lurkers figured it out, too.)

            “Have you ever watched….”The Curse of Oak Island”?
            http://www.history.com/shows/the-curse-of-oak-island

            No, I haven’t, but perhaps I’ll give it a look-see on your recommendation. But Fenn’s is far from my first treasure-hunting rodeo. I’ve been a Twelever for a decade, and I recognize some handles here from past treasure hunts.

          • Zap –

            I really don’t know honestly if you don’t understand what he’s asking you or if you do and you avoid answering. I have asked yiibthe same.

            What is BTFTW a reference to according to Zap.? That’s what he and I are both saying when we advise you of not offering. You say you hint at it. So what?

            Anyway today on a map I saw a BTFTW. Not in that order. My amended question is why would you think that’s an area to search? So this is a different question then right? Don’t tell me where in Montana but tell me why you think it’s the spot. I suspect you want it to fit as oppose to knowing its the spot. You want it because the BTFTW thing is a stone in your wheel.

            Lugnutz

          • Zap, I guess I wasn’t around when you gave out those hints. Are you still referring to the tftw?

          • My apologies Zap…I don’t mean to offend anyone here nor should I have posted what I did in that way. I should have rephrased it, so it was more of an inquiry in general.

            I’m sorry.

            And you do provide plenty….I read you all the time. And I, like many, don’t always agree with another, will do better in my approach to the forum next time.

            I’m a direct kind of guy….and if course, secretive as well….with certain discussions….shoot we all are to some extent….because we all want Indulgence for ourselves – to get that “badge of honor”.

            I’m there. Trust me…I’m there.

            BUT…..at some point in all this beautiful mess, I do think “teams” will commence to form eventually. Why?

            I don’t know….teams usually solve problems faster, more thoroughly, and they usually succeed in their endeavor.

            Shoot…my team is there people…..all 38th different backgrounds and all contribute different angles, and as you can probably tell by my responses, three times the work at trying to figure out clues….three times faster than possibly other.

            You see the responses people are posting just as I do….people are “honing” in…..and all probably in the same region.

            It is a foot race now….no longer just a mystery on the web.

            Now you know my angle(s), huh?

            But….*smiles*….Thank you….for keeping me honest.

            Good luck.

          • Now that was profound! …

            But it if were a professional team; Would that be Pro Found! 🙂

          • …after thought…..FBNFTW…..

            I also agree it is a location….A location to another point in the map.

            I also think that it is A certain or specified distance.

            I think you forget “the floor structure” an architect sometimes uses in his design.

            IMO – FF layered this poem….in a simple manner….

            Thus, IMO, every clue could have multiple meanings that are associated to the poem…in this case…..location, actual distance (feet, miles, km, etc) between clues, and possibly, the distance from last clue (or from WWWH) to next location/clue.

            With dismissing that context, I can see why the forum is saying what they have been.

            Cheers and good luck!

          • Lugnutz – really? You want me to just tell you what BTFTW is? You’ve got to be kidding me. With 7-digit loot on the line I’m just going to hand you and everyone else what I believe to be the lynchpin that has tripped up everyone else to this point? Geez, why don’t I just tell you what the blaze is, or better yet tell you where the chest is?! Isn’t it enough to know that I think it’s a location rather than a distance? Who else is saying that? And yet you think that hint is too stingy? There’s just no pleasing some people.

          • Zap –

            You didn’t read my full comment but everyone else can.

            I said I found the BTFTW on the map in MT. I said I realize you won’t name it. Ingles I can feel free though.

            I asked you to explain why you think this is the spot. I said I am asking because you are forcing it to fit. Just like the first time people find one of tbw Browns Canyons or Browns creeks.

            As I mentioned before I look forward to hearing about your idea after your trip.

            I close by reminding you and all my friends that the treasure can be retrieved in any weather by a 79 year old man or a teenager but apparently not a Zaphod.

            Lugnutz

          • Lug –

            Most often it is really hard to read your posts and understand what they mean. I think figuring out the poem is easier than trying to figure out what you mean in your posts. If you disagree, please read through them again. You have a knack for creating words I’ve never come across in the English language.

            “I close by reminding you and all my friends that the treasure can be retrieved in any weather by a 79 year old man or a teenager but apparently not a Zaphod.”

            I’ve seen you suggest that people can get the treasure in any weather but I’ve never seen f make that comment. I do remember him saying “If you know precisely where it is you can probably retrieve it in any weather.” He included the word *probably* in that statement. In my world that doesn’t guarantee anything as absolute. You’ve stated an absolute which is in contradiction with what f has stated.

            Do you ever check the weather Lug? Some roads in our nation are closed due to winter weather. Some are ice covered. Use some logic Lug.

          • On a snowmobile going over 100mph you wouldn’t even notice the speed, your mind goes into something I can compare only to as time travel. It really is something to experience. And it takes your mind to a place beyond mortality for a brief moment. Forrest has describes something of the nature while flying a jet.

          • Hi aMp…I’m one to believe…IMO of course…*smiles*….that a winter trek would not be heloful, because I think the “non-human trail” is marked….on the hround, this allowing you to see the “blaze”.

            Otherwise you probably are taking an expensive snow mobile trip.

            ;o)

          • HMA –

            My apologies.

            On this blog/forum I do not use punctuation other than a period at the end of a sentence. A blog is informal. Hear my comments out loud as if I was speaking to you in a pub in 1901. Do the same with Fenn’s poem and everything he writes. Or don’t. When I misspell I don’t care and I don’t go back. Also there is no need for the D in knowledge.

            Read Fenn’s statement.
            First please do bare in mind or bear in mind that Fenn did not write that. It was a response to a question that he did not know was coming. He spoke and someone wrote it down. Knowing this will not change the meaning. Sometimes that can change the meaning. As one example. Fenn never wrote “a good map”. Never. But I digress

            Read Fenn’s statement.
            He says “probably retrieve it in any weather”.
            Now look at your area in MT.
            Is it unreachable because roads close?
            Is it under feet of snow?
            Do you honestly think he said “probably retrieve in any weather” knowing the roads were closed for months and the snow was 6 feet deep? Or 20.
            If so you read that statement differently than I do.
            To me he is saying that the treasure is in an area that can be reached in any weather.

            And it’s ok to disagree. Some day we will know whether or not it is true that the treasure can be retrieved in any weather. I will buy you dinner in Taos and we can tell our stories.

            Lugnutz

          • Lug –

            “Read Fenn’s statement.
            First please do bare in mind or bear in mind that Fenn did not write that. It was a response to a question that he did not know was coming. He spoke and someone wrote it down. Knowing this will not change the meaning. Sometimes that can change the meaning. As one example.”

            Lug, F did write that response. It was a “weekly words” post on MW. Jenny shared it with the world. Here is the link.

            http://mysteriouswritings.com/weekly-words-from-forrest-dec-11th-2015/

            “Fenn never wrote “a good map”. Never. But I digress”

            Again F did write that – useful tools would be GE and/or a good map. Check your sources.

            “To me he is saying that the treasure is in an area that can be reached in any weather.”

            You might want to visit a tropical island if you think that.

            “And it’s ok to disagree. Some day we will know whether or not it is true that the treasure can be retrieved in any weather. I will buy you dinner in Taos and we can tell our stories.”

            I agree that we can disagree but you have to understand facts to have a conversation. I would look forward to visiting Taos and visiting about the treasure hunt sometime.

          • HMA –

            I don’t want to argue with you. He did not write “good”.
            He said a word and someone wrote it down.

            I think ran on Jenny’s MW website.

            Lugnutz

          • Lnutz

            why are you so insistent that Zap should go search in dangerous weather?
            maybe you’d consider the concept of leading by example this once, given that you claim to have multiple solves (?)

            I mean, that would the honourable thing to do right? ..sorta like the brave galant Kings of the Middle Ages.

            ( ..don’t forget to take your epirb 🙂 )

          • CH –

            I would never suggest that someone search in winter.

            There is searching for the TC
            There is retrieving the TC.

            IMO if he knows where it is it can be retrieved in any weather.

            Also if I had the money and time off I could go attempt a retrieval at Ponce DeLeon Springs. Should be able to retrieve it in any weather.
            Lugnutz

          • thanks Lug – btw, I have a very very cunning plan for where the treasure ISN’T located ..more cunning than Baldricks cunning plans even.

            I call it ‘the cunning process of elimination’ plan.

            (Ponce DeLeon Springs – tick)
            🙂

          • CH –

            I wouldn’t know how solid your plan is or care. IMO no one has found the treasure because no one has seen the blaze. So even if it is at PDS you won’t find it.

            I will tell you why I became interested in PDS. The actual spring is sacred to the Taos people. They have a ceremony there every year. When the owners looked to sell the land it was in danger of falling into private non Indian hands. And anonymous donor from Sante Fe donated 500k for Taos Pueblo to be able to purchase it. The anonymous donor stipulated that the land remain open to the public in perpetuity. Or so the story goes.

            http://pocodetodonm.blogspot.com/2012/07/ponce-de-leon.html?m=1

            Whether it’s the TC or not I look forward to my visit.

            Lugnutz

          • 10-4 Lug
            I certainly have due respect for your astute research skills, make no mistake.

            But I figure that if no-ones found it in the last 2555ish days, the odds are slim that anyone will in the next 365
            ..so I just research any searchers current ideas, and immediately cross them off my list
            so, according to my calculations, in August 2165 a.d, there will theoretically be only one place left in the Rockies that remains un-searched.

            BINGO!!
            🙂

          • “The opposite is true as some searcher has been within 200 feet.”

            How close is 200 ft?

            – one can be in a car driving in a road that is 200 feet from the location.
            – one can be hiking and be 200 feet from the location

            ….and never knew that the location was there.

            ****************************

            That is how I see FF’s response.

            I am also one to believe that no hiker has been that close physically.

            I think FF knew of a seeker in the region of Indulgence and then either they let FF know where they were, for him to come up with this response, or he is using it in a vague term to satisfy the ubiquity of the meaning.

            I think those seekers were driving on a road….and drove passed the location without ever knowing the location. This meets all the aspects of that response.

          • Tim – I don’t think Forrest said we NEED a flashlight, did he?

            If I’m not mistaken, his exact words were ‘the poem and map might help, but def NEED a large ham sandwich with extra mustard, and a quart of cold beer to wash it down.’

            hmm.. now that I think about it, I may have got that quote slightly wrong.

            what he probably said was ‘a FLAGON of cold beer.’ – that makes more sense 🙂

          • LOL….yep…*takes a swallow of his drink*…..

            FF seems like a good chap to throw down with when I get the goods…..

            LOL

            As for a flashlight…..I think he said you may want to bring one just in case……(my thought) “….it gets dark.”

            :o)

          • haha, good onya Tim – but I reckon the flashlight is for those pesky snakes

            i.e: a snake pops up out of nowhere, a searcher flashes some complicated morse code into its eyes while chanting something mystic, snake wonders what the heck is going on, searcher suddenly runs in the opposite direction while screaming incoherently.

            I mean ..what else would it be used for?
            🙂

  28. I must think differently than everyone else.
    My question would be, do you go up, or down the creek?

    • Emmett;

      I can only speak for my self. I go down the canyon to a point past the hoB. From there, I go up the creek, past the “meek” place to the END, where there is no need for a paddle, and find water high and the blaze. That is just me, others may differ. JDA

  29. Two creeks located in Powell County, Montana that I can recall reading about:

    Your Name Creek
    No Name Creek

    in addition; The ‘Big Hole River’ located in Wisdom, Montana was originally named: ‘The Wise River.’

    SL

    • Please remember that a full house can be beaten by a larger full house and:
      Four of a kind:All four cards of the same rank.
      Straight flush Five cards in a sequence, all in the same suit:
      and a Royal Flush.. A, K, Q, J, 10, all the same suit.

      Saying NM continues to hold the full house doesn’t seem like much of a sure bet to me. Just sayin’ JDA

  30. *screams at the top of his lungs*

    THANK YOU FORREST FOR ALLOWING ME TO CHECK SOMETHING OFF MY BUCKET LIST!!!

    ;o)

  31. I can keep my secret where,
    And hint of riches new and old.

    When I established my search areas starting point by other lines after these 2 lines., I thought about if and how these 2 lines could be an added description to the area. I am not including the first 2 lines in the stanza because of the known fact he was by himself when he hid his treasure. These 2 lines , to me anyways, are descriptive. I just read someone is mentioning these 2 lines also as I type this.

    Too me this could mean, ‘where there is a hint of riches new and old’. Not messing withe the poem , that is just how I hear and listen to these 2 lines.

    I am thinking that this could mean that the area was once historically prosperous and established by some means of a boom like gold, silver, copper , oil or whatever. Made many people rich and many sought richness there.

    In the new , meaning now, the area could be a place of affluence by another means financially . Could be an expensive place to live but to visit and enjoy the areas offerings is affordable to anyone. People and families go there for many reasons; weekends, vacations, hiking, enjoying nature experience there.

    A place where,

    “A hint of riches new and old”

    I believe the area is thriving now as it once was in the past but for different reasons. It fits my solve anyways in my mind.

    What do you think these 2 lines mean?

    • Hi Alsetenash;

      I guess that you can call me a purist at heart, and one of the “Straight-forward” thinkers. I always look for the simplest interpretation – Therefore, for me all of stanza #1 must be read as a single clue.

      “As I have gone alone in there (No punctuation, so a continuing sentence) and with my treasures bold, (comma)
      end of a partial thought – I was alone when I went into a particular place with my TC and its contents… I can keep this location a secret. – Continuing the thought – and hint of riches new and old.” (sic) Now that it is hidden, I can discuss what its contents are – both old (ancient Incan jewelry etc.) and new – Newer gold coins etc.

      Fairly straight-forward and simple. Just how I see it – JDA

      • JDA

        I like your synopsis applied to your ideas. The precursor to my thought of this is in the 3rd line of stanza 1 he says I can keep my ‘secret where’ then he says ” a hint of riches new and old”. I just think that it is no secret what is in the chest and no hints of riches new and old in the chest. He says what is in the chest when asked. I don’t see the “secret where” and “hints of riches new and old” are about the contents in the chest. These two lines (to me anyways) are about the secret place where there is a past and future of prosperity to this secret where-place/area.

        The secret where;hints at riches new and old.

        Just my thought on it

        Good to share thoughts and ideas here JDA..

        Thanks!

        • Think about all of the years that Forrest accumulated all of the contents of the TC. He showed it to a very limited group of personal friends, but other than that, he had to be tight-lipped about its contents.

          WOW that a relief it must have been, after he hid it, and published the poem. AT LAST, he could tell the world about the bounty that he had secreted! That is what I envision as I read stanza #1 – taken as a whole. JDA

          • I see why you have reasoned your analysis. I can see that in that light.

            He was able to release his pent up secret of the contents finally and by hiding it, it was a relief by secretion.

            Theretofore,

            I can keep my secret where,
            And hint of riches new and old

            I like it.

    • Al;

      An interesting proposal – clearly thought out, and it may contain possibilities. Good luck to ya guy. JDA

    • “Read the clues in my poem over and over and study maps of the Rocky Mountains,” he said via email. “Try to marry the two. The treasure is out there waiting for the person who can make all the lines cross in the right spot.”

      • Oz10,
        Kinda sounds like… read the poem like your going to put an X on a map. ‘make all the lines cross in the right spot’
        Or
        Maybe the clues are need to be used to measure out or survey the location? Hmm, 9 clues… 9 points… I wounder if there is a math equation that uses 9 point to locate an exact point?

        Good find…

        • Seeker,
          “…make all the lines cross in the right spot.”
          You say 9 clues-9 points but if you cross lines between them, you end up with 4 lines and one loose point. Then 4 lines equal two X or one # times infinity. Lol… I don’t know anything about equations.

          • Oz,
            This is why some to get me… I had two different thought at one time…

            Lets go with thought one;
            putting an X on the map like you said requires a minimum of 4 point with the 5th being the center. Question is, how huge is the area to the destination? Which point are used? Do we know beforehand what those points are or only when found in the field?

            The other thought relates to a math equation from a theory long ago; Tarry Point equation… which relates to 9 point circle [ a second version of the equation ].
            fenn went to navigation sKool, was a guide, a pilot etc. Maybe the poem does explains how to find the spot precisely…exact… even closer than GPS.
            But – introduce something ~ Tarry – scant small amount, pin point? Look at maps? Certainty beforehand?

            You know the debate of 9 line to 9 sentences as well as anyone… why “9” clues?
            I mean, if we read the point as point to point… any idiot can simply count out locations by what is ‘described’ Why were we told that ‘number’ of clues from the get go?

            ‘people are out looking for the blaze, that would be a miracle if they did…is the blaze in the poem or only in the field [ declined to answer ]… Blaze a single object, in a word;yes.
            Do we need to create the blaze? Are we given the information to do just that?

            Some may say this is ‘over thinking’ I look at it as analyzing information in the poem for “precisely”

            The line in the poem could have read Just tarry scant with marvel gaze or simply, following a coma, tarry scant with marvel gaze… the addition of “but” seems harmless when read at first or even a hundred time… however, we have been told not to discount words.

            Can that little word have a usage to say.. “still”? “notwithstanding” you still need to do something even though you discovered the blaze? Fenn felt like an architect creating the poem… where is the design? the blueprint?

            like I said, just thoughts.

          • I think that your using “but” to mean “Notwithstanding” is GREAT Seeker.

            I think that this is key. It could mean, as you say, ” you still need to do something even though you discovered the blaze?”, or it could mean do not spend a lot of time marveling (staring) at the Tarry Scant, because it is not here. Just my opinion. JDA

          • Ok JDA,
            I hope I don’t regret this…

            You said; “or it could mean do not…”
            For but to mean ‘not’ to do something you need to add something..such as.. but ‘don’t’ tarry scant. or but you ‘shouldn’t’ tarry etc.
            The use of “but” implies an intention getter. Without the addition of a negative or don’t, the word [but] is used as introducing something else.
            So we have a blaze.. whatever that mean, prior to but, and we have quickly which is an action word and time-scheduled . A word that also involves time in that action. Told, that by doing something within a time set we will have our desired outcome.

            BUT, however, still, nevertheless, notwithstanding etc. something needs to be done in following the BUT. So, in analyzing the words we have. Look; an action, Quickly a time, our desired outcome we need to achieve, and told, But now do this… what is it we need to do to find the chest?

            Then again; if we use meanings of word… tarry; to actually linger, Scant; a small amount, pin point. Marvel; wonder, astonishment and yes, phenomenon. Gaze; look steadily, study, fixed eyed…

            The poem seems to be describing something needing to be done, an action on our part to ‘finalize’ that desired outcome… “precisely”
            I think the blaze is not a mark in the sense of X marks the spot… it’s more like the pointer to guide in the actions of what the poem in these lines might be explaining our final movements.

            The whole poem to reading the poem is to interpret clues, understand what they are, locations, and use of the ‘information’ of the clues.

            We’re looking for a 10″ sq spot “hidden” in a mountain range… precisely… that will not be stumbled upon. The interesting part of the poem is… we are told that 9 clues must be understood to accomplish this, Yet, even when on site searchers did not understand something about the first two clues, maybe the first four clues, or even the area they were at…

            Something is amidst in the reading/understand of what the poem is relaying, and the surroundings when on site.

            Am I over complicating something, or am I attempting to understand why certain words are use as information that will lead to an exact, precise 10″ sq hidden spot. Straightforwards is understanding what is being told, not what we hope is being told.

          • Seeker;

            Your points are well taken, and well described.

            I differ with you in the interpretation of “Quickly” as being time related. For me, and you nor anyone else has to agree, there is a very obscure definition of quickly that tells me where to look, not when or how to look.

            I also disagree that “tarry” refers to time. I use the TARry Scant definition that relates to a blackish colored flat stone.
            So, to me (and probably me alone) “Look quickly down, your quest to cease, But tarry scant with marvel gaze…” = Look in a particular place, downstream from the blaze, Don’t spend a lot of time staring in amazement at the tarry scant because. notwithstanding its beauty, the TC is not here. ( It is near, but not here.)

            Remember the OLD version of the poem, “: “Look quickly down beyond the stones, Take the chest but leave my bones.” – tied in with the above statements regarding something that must now be done – I “Look beyond the stones” (Tarry Scant) for a place that is then described in the next lines of the poem.

            Your thoughts are good, and your logic sound, we just use different definitions for key words, leading us to differing actions. JDA

          • JDA,

            With your description I somewhat think allot the same within my solve for the “look quickly down . Tarry scant and marvel gaze”

            Where I think the chest is , is pretty close from this point but have to be BOTG to confirm of course. But I am very confident.

            Heading out to visit family, won’t post for a couple days.

          • JDA “Remember the OLD version of the poem, “: “Look quickly down beyond the stones, Take the chest but leave my bones.” –

            I remember very well the part; just take the chest and leave my bone, or something like that. One reference was the daliy beats, another was a video… maybe one of Toby’s.

            You’ll need to point out where fenn stated anything close to your quote fenn said; “Look quickly down beyond the stones..”

            I have searched for this quote; asked a couple other reliable sources about it.. and I have failed to locate it.
            I’d be very interested in hearing that from the horses mouth, or seeing a direct verifiable quote.

          • Seeker;

            You have a good point. I can not say absolutely that Forrest ever said,”“Look quickly down beyond the stones, Take the chest but leave my bones.”

            I googled it and got two references:
            I “googled it” and got two references – One Was in Jenny Kile’s Questions – part two
            Richard – on October 17, 2016 at 3:18 references it, and then a reference to Ritt Jordan’s book.

            I can not say with certainty that Forrest did or did not say it, but these two sources indicate that he did.

            A couple of months ago, “E” also referenced it. I know, hear-say – I agree.

            Please note that I put it in quotes, but that I did not follow it with an “f” indicating that it was an exact quote from Forrest. JDA

          • I put it in quotes, because I did not want others to think that these were my words.

            Because of the google references, I “believe” that these may have been Forrest’s words, but I can not prove it.

            JDA

          • OK, JDA, I do appreciate the response. I can’t in all good conscious take it as a quote from fenn… Heck, I would have been all over that if true, and I’m sure many other would have as well.

            The references you pointed out [ which I will check later for a refresher course and hold judgement till then ] I can’t take at 100% or even 10% at this time.

            That would be the same as all the postings of bloggers, unverifiable interviews, or any other second or third hand comments, that fenn stated, WWWH is the first clue. Until I hear it from fenn himself… it doesn’t matter to me what others think they heard or interpret or hope is correct.

      • Your welcome. I found it on my news feed while awaiting the decision from the 9th Circuit Court and then spent the rest of the night thinking about the Chase and forgot about the court thing… Thanks Forrest. 🙂 wait 9th circuit, 9 clues…hmm

    • Oz10: thanks very much for the link. Forrest continues to give big clues, and while I never gave it much serious consideration, I’m now starting to see why some searchers believe he wants this search to be over.

  32. Lugnutz, HMA ~ If you know precisely where it is you can probably retrieve it in any weather.

    I wasn’t about to climb to the reply balloon. so I hope ya two don’t might if I jump in here. I think the comment is very intriguing to say the least.
    Both of you bring up good points, one being road closures. What I see that might be more important in the comment is not how one gets there, but IF the chest is ‘retrievable’ where is sits laying in wait. If weather is not a factor of retrieving the chest… things like frozen over water[s] seem out of the question etc.. One reason is, fenn stated “if you can find the treasure chest it won’t be a big job for you to get it.” This implies the actual ‘finding of the chest’ or as the above comments stated; “If you know “precisely” where it is…”
    I honestly don’t think fenn implied the travel to the chest, but the “spot” [ where the chest lays in wait ] itself. I also recall fenn stating “If you can’t make two trips from your car to your solve in several hours, then don’t go.” Was this only meant for the physically challenged? And/Or If you can’t walk through 6′ of snow don’t go? Sometimes, common sense is over looked when we look to hard at these comments. The simplest piece of advice fenn repeats is, don’t go where an 79 or 80 yr old man can’t. I would think that implies to “how” to get to the spot in any weather as well.

  33. Ii thought at first the first four sentences gave us an area, like a national forest, then we begin our quest in there. Now every time I read the first four sentences it seems to be talking about Forrest Fenn’s mind and memories, ” As I think back when I’m by myself, all my favorite memories seems to come to me, I can keep them to myself , along with memories of all my favorite artifacts new and old.

  34. Hi Zosorocks — the nested thread was getting too deep, so responding here. My thanks for your apology — it was much appreciated.

    You opined about teams and their advantages. I agree that it can accelerate the solution to a complex problem, since each person brings unique skills to bear. This is particularly true in problems that have a parallel nature. But in my opinion, solving Fenn’s challenge is decidedly serial, so absolutely no progress will be made on figuring out the blaze or home of Brown until after WWWH has been solved.

    “It is a foot race now….no longer just a mystery on the web.”

    Perhaps, but I’m sure you know this has been claimed many times over the years, and yet still here we are. Nevertheless, I do believe 2017 will turn out to be the year.

    • Although the team approach sounds good – pooling ideas and resources – in practice I think it could be problematic. As Zap points out, the search is serial in nature, and at each point of divergence there will be potential for disagreement, and the possibility that the path of least resistance (lowest common denominator) will be chosen. This might not allow sufficiently for sparks of imagination to flourish.

      Perhaps, more importantly, this is more than a point-to-point search, IMO, and it requires a singular approach to problem solving. There is a specific technique involved. Once that nut has been cracked, the team is redundant and may in fact inhibit the “stream of consciousness” required to complete the task.

      I agree that FF seems to be willing the end. In a way it’s a shame that he’s releasing more and more hints all the time as it takes away from the “thrill” IMO. This puzzle is definitely solvable, and it will be solved.

      • I think F knew going into this. People’s own greed would prevent a group from forming any imaginative or creative ideas collectively. The poem starts “As I have gone alone in there and with my treasures bold,” there is a lot of singularly in that beginning. If one person could keep in mind everyone’s solves then then sift through them like an archeologist he could eventually find the winning solve. However I notice on these blogs that people tell you what they want you to hear and keep there secrets in there secret places. Replace the TC with a bus token and assume that everyone here was still interested in the search. The conversations would be much more revealing. Js

        • Everyone selfishly looks for a TC while reading Stories about the unselfish way he is trying to give it too us.

        • I agree with you aMp, but it’s not just selfishness. I jealously guard the parts of my solution that explicitly reveal my thinking because I want to meet FF’s challenge, and I do not want any casual lurker stealing a march on me. Like many others I have spent thousands of hours, thousands of dollars, and a great deal of my remaining energy and psychological well-being pursuing this challenge. The generosity comes later…

          Beyond that, if I were to reveal specific places, such as my hoB, blaze, waters high, etc. they would be meaningless to anyone without the key that unlocks their meaning. They are all tied together in a very specific way, and to reveal the methodology is to reveal the treasure, IMO – and where would be the fun in that, either for me or anyone else?

          Game shows are fun because people pit their wits against each other in friendly competition.

          • I agree with you. My cats like it in the bag for similar reasons. I was just noticing how he must of know beforehand. In all my patients I am simply amused.

        • Personal end results need to be set aside within a team. The team will fail if this is allowed. We all know everyone succeeds when everyone is involved.

          And I also agree with you on that the personal objectives individuals have with this quest. We all want to be the sole winner. We all want that badge. Why? Is personal achievement more important than multiple people sharing in the glory? That is one question that needs to be addressed PRIOR to thinking one can be part of a team. If they cannot answer it, then they should not be on the team. Team members trust that the team players are all on the same side and have the same goal. Like any poorly made cog in a system, if it isn’t doing it’s job, the rest of the system will fail.

          I gave up on the idea of doing this all on my own, knowing I can be more successful with like minds thinking that the endeavor is probable.

          Of course, this is just one perspective of many. It happens to be working for me…..why not others?

      • Hey vox…..I’ll have to disagree on the “Team” concept, knowing the success teams do have.

        Examples of positive ideas and success
        – multiple people to bounce ideas off, instead of only yourself.
        + One person will miss possible solutions, obstacles, etc.
        + Multiple people mulling over these things can find ways to overcome those situations

        “at each point of divergence there will be potential for disagreement,”
        – teams should be able to work through obstacles the others bring to the table. If they can’t, it is probably they already have it in their mind that the team won’t work. That player isn’t a team player and should be replaced.
        – Obstacles like any problem or situations can be overcome with thought and discussion. How do you think a company becomes successful? We know it is not with just one person doing all the work. Do you think the Rolling Stones had disagreements while still gaining success?
        – With disagreements, that is actually how success is achieved. Just look at this forum as an example. We all disagree to some extent….shoot – you did with my post. IMO – that is just another reason on the table why people do not succeed. They let disagreements get the better of them.

        “and the possibility that the path of least resistance (lowest common denominator) will be chosen. This might not allow sufficiently for sparks of imagination to flourish.”
        – not on my team. All members have an equal say. If one disagrees, then they support their approach and/or usually have another angle that is more inviting. We all review the new idea and see if it can be viable for the goal. We all decide whether to move forward with it or not. We know that snags will exist. One just needs to realize the snags, what are the options to get around the snags, and then work on the solution to avoid the snags in the future. This all being done while still staying the course of the objective….to find Indulgence.
        – Your point to point method is in play with my team. It always has been, because FF has already stated “not to mess with my poem” – which to me indicates, it was written in the way it was to help the seeker begin with spot “A” and end at spot “X”.
        – All team members know this as well, so your reason is actually not an issue for me.

        “Perhaps, more importantly, this is more than a point-to-point search, IMO, and it requires a singular approach to problem solving.”
        + Don’t get me wrong that a single approach is not a viable way to tackle this puzzle, I did it for the first couple of years, came to a conclusion, took it to my team, and we all fine tuned it. That 1st search we took, and my wife still talks about it….”finding a spot 1000 miles away and actually search it – was amazing”….
        + One should always use the “buddy system” (team) for safety in the wild, just in case. We all know how going out alone can end up. *sighs*
        + IMO – not only is the poem a point-to-point presentation, it is a multiple layered map with conundrums embedded. As simple as it seems, and as simple as one tries to keep focused with it…..one needs to think outside this Pandora’s Box. IMO – it will be the way this quest ends.

        “There is a specific technique involved.”
        – Oh yeah….I think we all believe this to be true. There is only one solve, but I think there can be multiple ways to arrive at that one solve. Multiple in being how one looks at a clue. Example – “Put in below the home of Brown.”
        + One must know what “Brown” means.
        + One must determine if “below” is south, under, or some other meaning to this one word.
        + Is the region “meek” – which is actually a hint to the location/region – in the next verse. This still keeps with the “point-to-point” way of looking at it, but now you have additional information to what the place looks like that is actually “below the home of Brown”, because you are looking ahead in the poem. Are we still looking at a single layered map? No, we are not, we have just reached the second floor in the construction of the poem.

        “This puzzle is definitely solvable, and it will be solved.”
        – Oh yeah….and one of the main reasons I have chosen to embark on this. Not only because of the bucket list check mark it has allowed me to make, but still lets me look at that second bucket list check mark and hopefully I will be able to use it…..”find a hidden treasure”. A check mark that has been absent from my bucket list since I was a kid.

        “I made the poem difficult, not impossible.” – FF
        – Tim – “which makes it solvable.”

        Good luck to you vox!

        • Tim, I think you make out a very good case for a team approach and it will be interesting to see whether a solo searcher or a team wins the day. However, I don’t think you can equate the chase with running a company. I’ve found that intense meditation on the problems of the chase (and not management meetings or blog postings) have helped me make the most progress. But each to his own. I know I’m not a great team player, and so I make the most of what I can do.

          • The “company” analogy wasn’t all that great of a comparison, but it was used to show that a company uses teams all the time, and those teams meet and create new ideas, and even success fro the company. That was pretty much the gist of it.

            It will be interesting to see if a single person or a team achieves the goal.

            “I know I’m not a great team player, and so I make the most of what I can do.”
            – Trust me….not everyone is. That is what makes us unique….we all live out out lives the way we choose.

            If I can live out my days in luxury after finding a chest of gold and jewels, with others, I’m not greedy in any stretch of the word, and am very willing to only accept $750K.

            ;o)

            But is it really the loot we seek….or in truth…..an adventure to solve a mystery? A way to be recognized for an accomplishment?

            Shoot – If I am the one….I even created a placard to place on the spot – after I remove the chest of course – so others will know they were successful too, but unfortunately for them……just a little too late…..hehehe…..

            It’s all about fun, right?

          • I have a plaque also. It is a 10 ounce gold bar I keep in the TC. When after all your searching you arrive at the end of your rainbow and discover not the trove but that gold peice Just take it and go and know I was there, if all you find is a plaque you’ll know who has the gold peice. 😉

        • …and to talk about weird moments…..this just happened to me, after I sent the above….

          I opened a Chinese Fortune cookie to eat a snack…..this is the “fortune” inside….

          …and more specifically…..it goes along with my rant on “teams”…..

          “When you don’t care who gets the credit, there’s no limit to how high you can climb.”

          Funny – this is how I have always lived. Allowing the credit to go to someone else, even if you were the one making the success occur, is one of the best ways to allow good karma to come into your life. WIN-WIN

          They win with getting the kudos…..you win with knowing the success was there, you let someone else be happy for a while, and knowing that something good, but unknown, is heading your way.

          :o)

          Good luck to all!

          • Tim

            HAHA to funny synchronicity . Just so you know Fortune cookies are not Chinese. An American invented them. That American was a Japanese immigrant and those cookies were a staple in Japan served with tea.

            America just created a tradition serving them with Western Chinese Food.

            Cheers!

          • Hey now!! Are you trying to burst my bubble of good omens?

            It ain’t gonna happen. This was surely a sign from the treasure gods!!

            :o)

            And yes…I know the story of fortune cookies…..but the coincidence was right there….I just had to share it with the forum, in order to make a smile or two appear.

            It was fun to see the link though…..but then again, I see these types of things happening to me all the time……and usually end up being on the “better side” of the result.

            Could happen again…..*smiles*……

            Ancient Chinese Proverb:
            “He who goes to bed with itchy butt, wake up with stinky finger.”

            :o)

          • Well now, to maximize your positive karma, and make sure the credit definitely goes to someone else – big WIN-WIN – you really ought to drop out of the race right now! 😉

            (Just toying with ya!)

          • This quest would make a great reality TV series, huh?

            Me drop out? Nah….I’d never be able to check mark my bucket list entry.

            :o)

            I’m telling ya….this is probably one of the best times I’ve ever had. Brainstorming ideas, eliminating the boners, adding a thought or two someone else had, using a dictionary – “God forbid”…..hehehe….

            Just fun all around. Unfortunately my wife doesn’t think like this.

            LOL

          • “Just fun all around. Unfortunately my wife doesn’t think like this as much as I have.”

            I hear you! My wife now thinks she married a lunatic with a ruinously expensive hobby… Great fun, yes, but absolutely the last time BOTG for me this year.

          • This quest would make a great reality TV series, huh?

            Me drop out? Nah….I’d never be able to check mark my bucket list entry.

            :o)

            I’m telling ya….this is probably one of the best times I’ve ever had. Brainstorming ideas, eliminating the boners, adding a thought or two someone else had, using a dictionary – “God forbid”…..hehehe….

            Just fun all around. Unfortunately my wife doesn’t think like this as much as I have.

            LOL

          • JDA,

            My screen name you are wondering-Alsetenash.

            Not a simple answer but I will keep it short for I have to go now for a couple days with family visits.

            Someone uses my name on here already so I decided to use the Title of my book I will be writing in completion in 3 years time. The book will be called The Alsetenash. Why the Alsetenash? There is a meaning for that name that will be understood when the book(s) are written and read.

            It is my intention that the book will be adapted as a screen play. It has nothing to do with this treasure search of course but it helps me with my mind with the writing process in the creative stimulation effect. That is why I am here . Maybe I will find the chest if I ever go look.

            Anyone can write a book. My reason for writing the book is not just to write a book or a biography and be it boring et al. It will be unbelievable truthful and fiction in delivery that even I will enjoy writing it. No one would believe me anyways otherwise. So, a fictional story based oncharacters is better received.

            I could have just one sentence answered BSing but I don’t tell BS to anyone .

          • Just a funny aside to this. I was with my wife and son at a Chinese restaurant and at the end they brought fortune cookies.

            My son opened his and there was nothing inside. He frowned. I immediately said “do you know what the odds are for NOT finding a message inside a fortune cookie?”

            So, now, when we go to the Chinese restaurant we’re always looking for the cookie without a message. 🙂

      • I agree with you voxpops, the team approach can be problematic. Although, the group can help you find some things, others they can not. Some things you must figure out on your own. Problems can arise when one person in the group thinks, or at least hopes, they have an idea to figuring this thing out, only to have it shut down and be labeled as crazy. IMO over thinking and over analyzing seperates the group. I tend to use intuition to get me where I need to be and a lot of people don’t think that way. I embrace it.

        • Oh i definitely see what you are saying voxpops, I love my team. Wouldn’t be where I am without them. I believe in the team approach as well, I’m just saying that sometimes we may not agree on everything but we will always work through it.

        • I agree with you about intuition, and that doesn’t always sit comfortably in a group context. But in the end it’s all about how comfortable you are with being part of a team or not.

          Personally, I think that many of the great discoveries were made by people who were out on a limb (Newton, Darwin, Einstein, Hawking, etc.) and needed time to think on their own before presenting their findings to a skeptical world. I’m not comparing searchers to great scientists, but we may have to harness a tiny fraction of that type of reasoning and quiet reflection.

        • I offer that the size of a group is the determinant factor. How many is a group? According to one plausible definition on freedictionary.com, a “group” could be, “A number of individuals or things considered or classed together because of similarities: a small group of supporters across the country.” In small group communication, groups were not to exceed 8.
          The term “crowd-sourcing” is also interesting but appears to involve a lot more people.
          There is research on the wisdom of a crowd, group, etc that can be found in communication studies. By the way, I found the treasure last night but then awoke.

          • A think tank. 4 persons split into 2 groups then a periodic review of both groups by all 4 then followed by a rotation of individuals to strategize differently until next review.

          • IMO – teams can work remotely, but still need “face to face” time via the web or in a room.

            How much? depends upon the group, the target goal, how complex the situation is, can the objective(s) be met in a timely manner or over time?

            Most teams will begin with a heavy meeting schedule because the information is so vast….only after sifting through to the facts needed, only then can one realize how future meetings should be held and why.

            Teams require time and trust. Once again, devotion leads to success. Keep your emotions at the door, that won’t be useful.

            Cheers!

  35. Dal and others,

    Hello again – it’s been awhile. Home sick with an intestinal bug. have skimmed about 10,000 blog entries – well, deleted that many, anyways. I quit “keeping up” before we lost Randy, though I poked in then when I heard the news.

    Since then I’ve been letting some things simmer on the back burner, as they say. And in the time I’ve been away, this line of thinking may have been discussed ad nauseum, nevertheless, here goes: Mr. Fenn made a comment way back when concerning what a little girl in India could do with a map and a copy of the poem. That is she could get no further than the first two clues. Why is that? It is my opinion that the age of the person looking and where they are geographically located have nothing to do with the truth of his statement. Spelled out – none of us gets any closer than the first two clues with a map and a copy of the poem.

    Something else Mr. Fenn has said, if I can recall or paraphrase what he said, that some folks have been within 200 feet – so he has presumed they solved the first two clues. But have they? What if they were simply throwing darts and got lucky. (Maybe someone reading this knows they were one of the folks within 200 feet – but I doubt it, or they would go back and pick up Indulgence.)

    So, right or wrong, I’m trying to bridge a gap that may or may not be there. What if anyone, and I mean anyone, can get the first two clues and come close by accident? This makes clue number three the important clue – not that you can pass by the first two. What say you all? Am I all wet or does this line of thinking hold water?

    • I would say that your overall premise is correct. Clue 3, or IMHO “Not far, but too far to walk” is the roadblock. This is not an easy clue to figure out and as Zap and HMA have both alluded, is a potential reason the”two clues, went past the rest” quote holds validity. I would surmise that due to the highly suggestive language for a DISTANCE in “Not far, but too far to walk” it is difficult for some to see it as something different, and therefore do not solve the clue correctly.

      • I try to be observant. I feel like my way of thinking is turning in the right direction, however it is not there yet. I am still at the beginning, but now I have a better frame of mind that I hope will bring me to the right starting point. I know what to look for, but I haven’t figured out the method yet, if you follow my train of thought.

    • frank;

      Are you and I reading the same poem? As I read the poem we start somewhere –

      1) wwwh
      2) We travel down a canyon some distance
      3) Not far, but too far to walk.
      4) We go past (possibly south) of the hoB
      5) We put in, implying a possible change of direction.
      6) We then go to a place that is not for the meek
      7) We then go to the END.
      8) We now encounter a creek where one can not use a paddle.
      9) and now we reach a place of Heavy Loads and Water High.

      I just can not see how wwwh and Heavy Loads can be the same. Do you care to explain. I might learn something. Thanks – JDA

      • jda imo wwwh Is a reservoir where waters halt its made of concrete (heavy loads) and a body of water so heavy loads and waters high is a reservoir – high to me means north of the body of water – waters high where you will keep going north to the blaze in the wood and then to the end. imo

        • Good answer, but Forrest says,””There are nine clues in the poem, and the clues are in consecutive order. If you want to find the treasure chest – you have my book there – I’ll tell you how to do it. Read the book just normally … the poem and the rest of the book, and then go back and read the poem 6, 8, 10 times – study every line, every word. Then after you do that, read the book again, slowly, with the idea of looking for clues or hints, that are in the book that will help you follow the clues. You can find the chest with just the clues, but there are hints in the book that will help you with the clues.” f

          How can you follow the clues consecutively when you jump from wwwh to heavy loads?

          Remember that Forrest said that wwwh is not a dam. A reservoir, made of concrete is a dam isn’t it? So, you go from your reservoir – somewhere – a canyon, a hoB, a “meek” place, an END, a creek that requires no paddle, then what? Do you now ignore “Heavy Loads” because you found it earlier? How is this solving it in consecutive order?

          Not trying to put you down, just trying to give yourself the opportunity to possible re-evaluate. JDA

          • The poem does not say go into the canyon, it says the warm waters “HALT and TAKE” it in the canyon down.

            You are reading it as if there is a comma after the word halt, there is not, so it is the water going down not us. All it tells us to do is “put in below the home of Brown” which should be evident when you are there.

          • jda when you start wwwh and you go north to canyon down – then you take it in to no paddle – when the reservoir releases water it turns in to a creek – when you go passed it (reservoir)to go to home of brown you no longer have a creek- that’s why it says no paddle – from hob you go north passed the body of water (reservoir) to the blaze then you go to in the wood where you go north -( your efforts will be worth the cold ) to where it hid – imo wwwh and heavy loads is a reserovior – 1) where you start and the other is what you pass by on your way to the blaze all in my opinion.

          • jda – the reservoir is not made entirely out of concrete- just where the water is released its no where built like a dam

        • frank ~ ” imo wwwh Is a reservoir where waters halt its made of concrete (heavy loads) and a body of water so heavy loads and waters high is a reservoir – ”

          Just need some clarification.. are you saying HLAWH is a reservoir or both WWWH and HLAWH?

          I’m reading it as, wwh to be one [a reservoir] and concrete [ man made ] or a dam, holds the water.

          • seeker imo that wwwh is one reservoir that’s where you start the2nd one is where you take it in the canyon down to the other reservoir go passed it and you will no longer have a creek go north of the body of water which is waters high so yes to me there are two reservoirs imo

          • If your reservoir for wwwh has concrete, is that not a dam?
            wwwh is not a dam comment?
            fennology 101.

          • seeker my reservoir on my computer map on both of the reservoirs it gives the names and it says reservoir it doesn’t say lake or dam or any other name so im going by that .

          • Frank, you seem to be talking in circles. On your computer you see two bodies of water, they are called reservoirs. (not dams) But you make the assumption that they are at least partially made of concrete (Heavy loads)

            If your assumption is correct, and they ARE made of concrete, this concrete is holding (halting) the water from flowing out. This is the definition of a dam.

            You can not have it both ways. If It IS a reservoir (made partially out of concrete) it IS a dam, and can not be wwwh – according to Forrest.

            Even if it is not made of concrete, if one end is holding back water by means of packed earth, it is STILL a dam. Don’t ya’ think? JDA

          • frank,
            Just out of curiosity, is there a pumping station in-between the two reservoirs?
            What you’re describing is [ I forget the name of the plant design ] a power plant that drains water from the upper lake through turbines, producing electricity, to the lower holding area… later to reverse the pumps, pulling water back to the upper holding… rinse and repeat

            If that is an accurate description… I kinda like it…However!… if these bodies of waters where dammed off by man-made barriers. Those are dams.
            If natural and a station built between the natural lakes… hmmm, I would need to think of that for a while. This one is perplexing, IF my description are of a two natural lakes being utilized because of gravity flow for energy.
            Is the concrete you mentioned hold back water or simply in the area… a bunker style building for the turbines?

            Either way, ya got me thinking about other possibilities.

          • seeker and jda ok I went back and checked and what I said was wwwh is a lake but water still flows out like a dam so I don’t know it has a name of a lake and that is still my wwwh and the other one that I say is heavy loads still has the name and it says reservoir and to me that’s what it is and its still to me heavy loads and waters high imo

  36. Everyone klnows that the way to wake up the fortunes found in fortune cookies is to add two simple words at the end of them… “in bed”.

  37. Greetings all,

    Just so you know, the previous post was a kind of “test post” to see if I could still post here. It’s been awhile since I have. I’m home with an intestinal bug and thought I’d try to catch up on the 10,000+ posts I’ve missed – no luck. But I did skim a bunch of threads to see what’s new and what’s been revisited.

    I’ve got a thought I’d like to pass by you folks here on the 9 Clues thread. This has been a thought that has been simmering on the back burner, as they say, and I am uncertain if I am barking up the wrong tree – or if I have something of significance to share.

    Mr. Fenn has said two different things, if my memory serves that make me wonder if he is saying something similar in two different ways to make a point that many of us have overlooked. The first instance is when he mentions that a little girl in India can get no closer than the first two clues with a map and copy of the poem. I do not think it matters one whit what the age, sex or geographical position is of the person in question – it is my opinion that Mr. Fenn is saying that none of us can get closer than the first two clues with a copy of the poem and a map.

    The second thing I seem to recall him saying is something along the lines that more than a few folks have been within 200 feet of Indulgence and the inference we seem to get from him is that they must have gotten the first two clues correct. But I think they were simply lucky, and were not going in confidence, else they would have Indulgence.

    So, here’s where it gets a bit sketchy – is it possible that none of us can get closer than the first two clues with a map and a copy of the poem, and that getting closer than that has been a stroke of luck for those that have been close to the cache, but not picked it up?

    So, if that premise is sound – then the third clue in the poem does something other than “get us close”. It must be the important clue for solving the puzzle to allow one of us to go confidently into the wood and pick up Indulgence. The third clue must be the hinge-pin on which all else rests.

    What say you? Am I over-thinking things?

    • SWWOT;

      You state,”it is my opinion that Mr. Fenn is saying that none of us can get closer than the first two clues with a copy of the poem and a map.” For me, here is your first mistake. Forrest did not say just ANY map, he said that the little girl had a Map of the Rockies” To me this is important. A Map of the Rockies would not show enough detail to get closer than the first two clues. Can ANYONE, ANYWHERE get closer than the first clues if they have a GOOD map? My thinking is yes.

      The MAJOR question, for me, is how do you count your clues? If one (like me) says that one sentence = one clue, then clue #3 = “Put in below the hoB.” – For me, the hoB could not be seen on a Map of the Rockies, but CAN be seen on a “GOOD” map.

      If you count clues another way, possibly, “Not far, but too far to walk” could be clue #3 – again, probably not discernable on a Map of the Rockies.

      However you count the clues. Forrest has said that several people have gotten the first two clues correct, and then walked right past the TC – So, either these people got the hoB wrong, or they traveled the wrong distance down the canyon – or at least that is what he seems to be saying. IMHO – Hope that this helps – Others may have differing views. JDA

      • Hey JDA, long time – no say. Just to clarify, I didn’t make a mistake in choosing my words, as I was trying to make a point about what the two things were that were needed. I wasn’t trying, even a little, to set a point on a map, just to talk about whether or not Mr. Fenn is reiterating something we all need to hear in more than one way and on more than one occasion. If he was, and I am inclined to think he was, then we can talk about the incidentals.

        That goes for counting clues as well. I’m wanting to know from the group if they can see my line of reasoning as sound or not. And if it is not, then I’ll sack it and go on to other things. But if my reasoning is sound, then I can go about my business of trying to find a good map of the RM and determining what the first two clues are.

        Thanx for reading,

        • Hey Swwot,
          There was another Q&A about no back-ground information… just the poem. { to lazy to look it up, i’m sure you know it } Anyways, If little Indy as a map [ don’t care what map that is ] and no back-ground as well… what is missing?

          We [ searchers ] know of the intro in the book to the poem ~ “containing 9 clue”
          Needed back-ground never mentioned in either Q&A scenarios?
          We tend to forget what we do know as facts sometimes, and forget to add them to our questions… not unlike fenn answering the students question the way the kid wrote them.

          I’m not going to pretend to know what a good map is… but looking at your post… I see GE is missing from the comment. Might GE give more insight because of the different mapping programs or zoom capability etc etc.

          “Is the map that needs to be used to discover where warm waters halt found online or in paper form? or both?” ~mdc777
          C’mon now agent 777, a map is a map. The more detailed maps are most useful if you have the right map, but I’m not sure I needed to tell you that.f ”

          What is the “right” map? Maybe the map Little Indy had was the mapped area we need… but without knowing if the details on the map were the “right” map… she or anyone “can not” get closer than the first two clue… think about that… an general map may show the first two clues, but a more detailed map might show more all the clues… zooming in? topo? waterways mapping?

          Or maybe, just maybe the reason for “can not get closer than the first two clues” is, you’re already as close as you need to be… you just don’t know it.

          lol there is another option. A bit of a stretch… the first two clues tell of the other seven… think about it before you dismiss it.
          Searchers didn’t understand the significance of “where” they were… even with the first two clues deciphered… what the heck did they miss? or misunderstood.

          Just more thoughts to go along with yours.

          • HI Seeker – re: what is a good map?

            well, GE is good for approx co-ords, bearings, distances, heights and 3D zoom functions
            Gmaps is good for place names
            USGS maps for contouring, survey and historical data
            tourist maps for local points of interest
            and military maps for lost pilots.
            ..so a good map is relative to the seekers requirements.

            someone mentioned paper maps earlier, which makes me wonder whether a physical map of the local area, which is unavailable online, is the key to solving clue #3 (?)

          • Eureka aMp – I believe you may have finally cracked this mystery.

            “have ticket to Pirates Lair on Tom Sawyer Island – will travel” 🙂

          • But you must be brave enough to exit the moving cart in a completely safe manner then on a scroll in Pinocchio’ nose is written the location in the Rockies of the TC 😉

          • must be brave – tick
            exit moving cart – tick
            in a safe manner –
            Pinocchio’s nose – tick

            Now I just gotta find the address of Disney Land in Montana 🙂

        • SWWOT;

          Not nit-picking but you say,”…then I can go about my business of trying to find a good map of the RM…”

          A GOOD map of the Rocky Mountains will not help SWWOT – you have to have a GOOD map of a particular part of the RM’s – with enough detail to see what needs to be seen.

          Forrest has said, “APRIL 2014
          Some searchers overrate the complexity of the search. Knowing about head pressures, foot pounds, acre feet, bible verses, Latin, cubic inches, icons, fonts, charts, graphs, formulas, curved lines, magnetic variation, codes, depth meters, riddles, drones or ciphers, will not assist anyone to the treasure location, although those things have been offered as positive solutions. EXCELLENT RESEARCH MATERIALS ARE GOOGLE EARTH AND/OR A GOOD MAP” f

          If I understand you correctly, you are saying that when Forrest says, ” The first instance is when he mentions that a little girl in India can get no closer than the first two clues …”

          and the second instance, when Forrest says, “more than a few folks have been within 200 feet of Indulgence and the inference we seem to get from him is that they must have gotten the first two clues correct.

          Is he saying the same thing? Is that your question? To me statement one says that she CAN get the first two correct with the poem, and a map of the RM’s, but with only these two tools, no, she can get no closer.

          Statement #2, to me, says that yes, some people have gotten more than two clues correct, using whatever tools they had at hand – including the poem, GE or a GOOD map.

          So, to me, the answer to your question is – given the wrong tool ( a map of the RM’s), anyone, anywhere can get clue #1 and #2 correct – using the poem, and the wrong map, but they can not solve clue #3

          …Given the RIGHT tools, the poem and a GOOD map or GE, any searcher anywhere can solve more than just clue #1 and Clue #2.

          Is that any clearer in answering your question? Hope so. JDA

      • My interpretation is that we need to be BOTG to get past clue 3. But there are 3 valid choices:

        The reason for the little girl (or anyone) could be any one (or even all) of the following:

        A) The book hints are required to understand clues 3 or perhaps more (remember, FF said the poem, ttotc, and a good map or GE is all we need).

        OR

        B) BOTG is required in order to either see or witness something, or to interact with something or perform an operation with something.

        OR

        C) Her map is wrong

        The girl does not have the book, she is not BOTG, and her map might not be good enough. It could be any of these.

        • WyMustIGo ~ ” A) The book hints are required to understand clues 3 or perhaps more (remember, FF said the poem, ttotc, and a good map or GE is all we need).”
          “Need” ? “required” ?
          I believe the word reference was used…for the book. I may need to look it up again myself… I swear I read good tools for GE and/ or a good map, but that might be wrong or in another comment.
          *personally* the “and/or” was very interesting.

          Ya might want to look up exactly what was stated. Maybe even look up other comments on the topic.
          Example;
          T&E 30sec. media thread…
          In part; they don’t need to read my book, but they need to read the poem. The book will “help” them, but they can find the treasure if they can decipher the clue that are in the poem.

          Don’t get me wrong… fenn has stated many time the book will help, even encourages readers to read the book for “hints that will help with the clues”
          But “need” and “required” is a whole other animal, and I never heard fenn use those words in regards to your comment. I wish he did, make my life a bit easier.

          • Possibly Consider that comment as him not wanting to look like he’s pushing to sell books. And consider when it was made because there was a time when only 10% of book sales went to charity as where now it is 100% I think.

          • Seeker, I said it was because of ONE or more of those. You may not like it, but there are only 3 possible reasons why she cannot figure out where the chest is:

            A) She only had the poem and a map of the rockies. It *might* be because the book is required.

            B) Boots on the ground is required

            C) A map of the rockies is not detailed enough

            The question to FF was not how close can she get to the chest, it was can she work out the chests’s location from India with ONLY the poem and a map of the rockies.

            FF says good research material to solve the poem is: TTOTC, the poem, and a good map and/or Google Earth.

            She had a map, might not be good.
            She had the poem
            She did NOT have the book
            She might not have had the right map
            She was not BOTG

            No other choices Seeker, none.

          • BTW, my opinion is B and C both. But A *is* a possibility and I never said FF says the book is required, he never said it wasn’t either.

            One thing for sure, the poem alone is NOT enough then because if she had the poem, so either BOTG is required or the right map is required, or both which means the poem is not solvable without the map. There is really no way to argue this point because if all you need is the poem, why can’t she or the boy in Texas not locate it with the poem?

          • WyMustIGo,

            That was just my argument against the thought.. with example of why… it’s no big deal either way.

            The question I have is.. the background information.

            What is it that is important to know?
            Hints in the text ? [ stories? others?] that will help with clues?
            or
            Is it the sentence just prior to the poem that explains containing nine clues… follow precisely… lead to his rainbow?
            If all the information to “Find” the chest is in the poem… What *lead in* information do we need?

            Because with after the fact comments that you and I have just talked about ~ no background info just the poem, and little Indy with a US map of the RM’s and the poem… there has to be something missing, right?

            Is rainbow the word that is key to know of?
            Is knowing about 9 or knowing about how many clue important we need to decipher?

            Ya talk about not being able to get pass the first two clues… however, the more recent comment of fenn implied, maybe as many as the first 4 clue have been decipher… if true… some one got past the first two clue, either botg or somehow stated them.

            Where does that leave us?
            Because; *No other choices Seeker, none* is not an accurate assumption [ unless we consider that intro sentence as part of the equation]…. some how fenn feels 4 clue could have been solve. Unfortunately, at this point in time that’s all we know or hope we know of.

            LOL remember the days we thought all we needed was to decipher the first clue and we were golden?
            I’m still attempting to find that one important possibility related to the winning solve.

            For some reason I think that may not in the poem. So, if true, logically it should be in the book.

          • Morning gang,

            I’ve read through all your folks’ comments and from what I can ascertain, none of you has ruled out my thinking. I must confess, it is easy to get talking about the trees and miss the forest – or what Forrest is trying to say in his two different comments.

            WyMustGo – I tend to agree with your assessment of the situation. Both B and C. And I’ll push point C a little further saying that there is no map (or Google Earth) that is detailed enough to take us to the end of the hunt – to Indulgence. B, boots on the ground is needed. And that’s where the poem comes in and supports the notion of all you need is the poem.

            Here are my general thoughts:
            1. The Poem and a map gets us close.
            2. The poem guides us in the wood to Indulgence.

            Each of these two points has many, almost infinite, ways of being interpreted. Add to that the comments that Mr. Fenn said about his books giving background info that could be helpful and you could come up with a blog site run by Dal. 🙂

            But seriously, it is my opinion that the books and background info give aide only in the sense of trying to get into the head of an 87 year old fighter pilot and art dealer. How was he raised? Why does he think the way he does? Why does he write the way he does? The background info is helpful in that way. Again, my opinion is that the information you gain about Mr. Fenn is not directly going to lead you to Indulgence – that’s why you need a map to “get close” and the poem to guide you to the finish line.

            And it is why he can state so confidently that the little girl in India can not solve the entire puzzle, and why some folks got within 200 feet and did not solve the puzzle. I believe those that were close were not thinking like Mr. Fenn when once they were within 200 feet.

            Thanx to all for confirming what I suspected. Now, let’s see what I need to do to “get close.” Ah, the Disneyland map….

      • Hi JDA. I know you don’t think my theories are anything relevant…*smiles*…..so I have another one for you to not worry about.

        The home of Brown.

        IMO
        – one cannot see this place on any map, unless you are going into the right direction to actually see or know where (maybe region) that the place of Brown is.
        – I believe the proper noun case FF used gives us the power to eliminate many things.
        – to me..it is should be capitalized, because of historic reference it contains.

        Good luck!

        • Tim;

          Just because a post has your name on it, I do NOT discount it. I read what is presented, and evaluate it against what I know or believe, and whether it agrees with or is counter to my solve.

          You say,
          “– one cannot see this place on any map, unless you are going into the right direction to actually see or know where (maybe region) that the place of Brown is.

          A. I can see my hoB on the “right” map.
          regardless of my direction of travel. Would most people recognize it as the hoB? Probably not.

          – I believe the proper noun case FF used gives us the power to eliminate many things.

          A. Yes/No – eliminate some things – many things, not sure. Most people would eliminate my choice for hoB because of the capitalization, but as I posted earlier this week, it depends on usage whether it is capitalized or not.

          – to me..it is should be capitalized, because of historic reference it contains.

          A. My choice does have some history involved, but that history has no relationship with whether it is capitalized or not.

          So YUP, we pretty much disagree. Hood Hunting. JDA

          • Thanks. Thinking outside the box helps make difficult seem easy.

            Shoot…FF said imagination is a wonderful thing. Why not be insginative, we know he was.

            “Be the ball” – Bill Murray

            It is quite a remarkable way to look at it.

            Shoot, I think there was a new release of declassified documents, that state remote viewing is possible.

            Why not anyone?

            Remote Viewing Mars 1 Million B.C. https://imgur.com/a/S0E82

            Thanks for reading my post!

            Good luck!

  38. A NOTE TO ALL, ESPECIALLY NEWCOMERS. THE ARTICLE STATES

    “At some point in 2010, Forrest Fenn made two trips north out of Santa Fe and into the Rocky Mountains.

    On the first journey, the art dealer carried with him a bronze, Romanesque chest.

    On the second trip, he brought a backpack filled with gold coins, gold nuggets, and gems. ”

    This is very wrong and miss leading, FF clearly stated the he made two trips from his car to the hiding spot in one afternoon, and as he was WALKING back to the car he talked to his self about what he had done….. He has NEVER stated that he made two trips FROM Santa Fe to hide the chest.

    • Is that afternoon or after noon? It was done in one (meaning one trip?) after noon? f has his “plausible deniability” in that statement. It is possible to leave on one trip and finish all after noon. Or, one trip was done in the morning and the other trip (the one he finished up on) done after noon. Or, he could have made two trips in one afternoon. We just don’t know which. Now from Santa fe, who knows.

      • An argument that you have posed before Charlie. In the end, does it really make ant difference? Not in my mind. The treasure is where it is at regardless of when exactly he put it there. Just sayin’ JDA

        • I know, but that was between you and I. I was answering Not Obsessed with this post. That particular statement has other ways to be read, it may not matter to you or I, but, to read that statement only one way is a mistake, needing to be corrected. Like most everything else in this chase, there are other avenues. Obsessed knows that, I was just reminding him that there are other ways into reading what f is saying.

      • Hey charlie…I posted something in these blogs on walking/hiking distance per hour by an “aged” fit man….

        I think the total I came up with approximated 6 hours of actual time would be needed for two trips.

        IMO – he backpacked it twice – for mobility through the brush. I’ve blazed a trail….simple blazing….it was exhausting, and time consuming. I can imagine why he included “I’ve done it tired.” it really does give someone the “on hands visual feel” of the adventure.

        Cheers!

    • Clint;

      If the forest service builds a trail, and gives it a designation of some kind, I would call that a human trail.

      If a bunch of 4-wheelers go back and forth between two points, using the same path, I would call it a human trail

      To me, the same would apply if a number of humans walked between two points repeatedly, enough to create a “see-able” trail, I would call that a human trail.

      Any one else have any ideas? JDA

      • I copied something from CC – To me, Human Trail means that it’s a trail designed for the (more or less) exclusive use of humans and it meets the definition above. Consider a bike path as an example of something that might not be considered a “human trail”. Other examples could be horse trails or even roads since neither of them are made for the use of humans exclusively and a road doesn’t meet the definition of a trail above. Does this help? JDA

    • Clint a Human trail is a path that has been worn or beaten into the ground by the passage of humans hiking, walking, or jogging (or crawling or slithering if they prefer).

      A jeep trail is a path or small road that has been worn into the ground by 4-wheelers or other small recreational vehicles.

      A game trail is a path that has been worn or beaten into the ground by all sorts of animals using it as passage.

      A paved road is a street, highway, or interstate that was made by humans for the purpose of vehicular passage.

      A road can either be a “paved road” or a large path that has been worn or tracked into the earth by the use of vehicular passage.

      A wagon trail is a path that has been worn into the earth by the passage of old horse and buggies and wagons from the old west. This is the primitive version of roads.

      Now, what you’re really asking ( I think), is what counts as a human trail. Let’s say you arrive at a parking lot in a town park. You and three friends get out to play basketball on the baseball field. From the paved parking lot to the field is a worn path about 100 ft long to dugout where people arrive and leave from. YES, this is a human trail. And while we’re still on the subject of baseball, while the pathways between bases are a “component” of the gamefield, they are STILL human trails by definition.

      “But what about a sidewalk?” you ask. No, by definition… a sidewalk is not a human trail. Even though humans walk down them every day, they did not wear the path into the ground from that walking. It was man made for them to walk on. Now if those trails were going down the sides of streets in the old days and were not yet paved as sidewalks, then YES… they would be human trails.

      But the big question is not a HUMAN TRAIL. The real thing you should wonder, is what is “Very Close Proximaty”? For one, proximaty is not a word. So Forrest has an “out” if you decided to assume it’s meaning for yourself. Secondly, even if it were an honest mistake(which I don’t think it is), what is “very close proximity”? In Forrest’s scrapbook about fishing plugs and one named “Pickles”, “Close Proximity” is viewed in a photo as two inches distance. So in his definition of the term, very close would be less than that.

      Hope all of that helps answer your question somewhat. 😛

      • Sorry I meant to say baseball on the baseball field… I guess basketball would be difficult there 😛

        • Iron will,
          do you think this quest is about finding god or do you believe there is a treasure chest full of gold to be found?

          • I think this is a quest about finding truth.
            The truth about who you are.
            The truth about who you want to become.
            The truth of your purpose and whether you believe you can affect it.
            The truth others will learn as they discover you, of all people, have found the chest.
            The truth found in your faith… of you.
            The truth about fame and the price that accompanies it.
            The real truth is, that when you find it, you are going to feel like you’d died and gone to heaven.
            But that’s not what I want to know. My question is… Who is this darn person named You? At this moment it could be anyone in the Chase, even yourself. Or it could be that I am merely speaking to my reflection in the computer screen. 😉

            But to answer your basic question, each person will find what they feel can comfort their efforts or lack thereof. If one fails, and inserts religion into that failure… then they will subconsciously shore up defeat with a self-created victory of finding God. Another can fail at this quest and claim to have found victory of their moment of peace in the beauty of nature. We all, whether we admit it or not, have our special ways of dealing with failure. But me… I’m going to find a treasure chest full of gold.

          • I agree with much of what you’ve written, IW. I know that I have discovered much about myself, and have learned to deal better with those more negative aspects of my nature.

            The Chase is very much a fusion of light and dark, and you do need to be brave at the end, IMO. There was an “Angel” on one of FF’s shoulders – what was on the other that was “buried” with the chest?

          • Well I have my profoundly philosophical moments… but then I talk about measuring Tesuque’s tail in relation to the fire hydrant 🙁

          • pdenver,

            I have a question that I’ve never seen addressed:

            Will ‘elevation’ requirement(s) be an issue in search areas, or only at the location where the T is found?

          • Please forgive me and my sleepy brain. Would they not be one in the same? I have a feeling I may come back to your question with another answer. 🙂

          • SL,
            That’s a good question to ask, and imagining a search area with the poem. If a 3 year old girl would need some assistance to get to the ‘chest’ would she need assistance throughout the clues?
            [ note; it’s not so much about age, as physical ability in my thought… of course a three year old needs watching over]

            The same may go for ‘Little’ Indy or a ‘boy’ from fenn’s fathers home town… In that Q&A fenn add disable people are having fun looking at maps, and warns searcher, if you can’t make two trip in several hours to your solve… don’t go.

            Is it simply a safety issue / guideline? or the little girl from India [ or a disable person ] can not get closer than the first two clues because of the track that is stomped out?

            Lets face facts… while the challenge gives everyone the same opportunity because we all have the same information to work with… is the challenge to actually “retrieving” the chest by following the clues for everyone?

            Could a person with lofstrand cane for assistance with walking be able to maneuver the search area to get to the chest? [ forget carrying it out… just simply getting there ]

          • Hello Seeker. Do you recall the response Mr. Fenn gave to a woman when she asked about her husband’s disability? I cannot recall his answer.

          • (Second try.) Do you recall Mr. Fenn’s answer when a woman asked about her husband’s disability?

          • SL;

            I am not pd, but from the cheat sheet above, it says, “♦Located above 5,000 ft and below 10,200 ft.. I interpret this to say that the treasure is secreted between 5,000 and 10,200′. I “assume” one could start at a lower elevation, but the TC will be above 5,000 and below 10,200 – Just how I read it. JDA

  39. seeker if you look at El Vado that is what im talking about when I say concrete—–and reservior

    • El Vado is a dam… a water reservoir and flood control. Any human blockage for whatever reason that holds back water flow is a Dam… concrete, dirt… doesn’t matter.

      “Many searchers have thought that warm waters halt at a dam because water being released through flues near the bottom of the dam is much colder than water on the surface of the lake. I have discussed around that subject with several people in the last few days and am concerned that not all searchers are aware of what has been said. So to level the playing field to give everyone an equal chance I will say now that WWWH is not related to any dam.” ff

      • Allow me too add her that El Vado is a great place to look and many have. Or to be specific lots of people including myself like Rio Chama as the blaze. Chama meaning blaze or flame. Specifically locals in New Mexico use it in a colloquial way. Look for the Chama. Meaning look for the campfire.

        El Vado means ford or the ford and of course Fenn famously references a Ford in TTOTC so maybe that’s a hint. I think there might also be a teacher named Ford. That’s two potential references.

        Beautiful place to search from below the reservoir up to the state line where warm waters halt as the reference dies with New mexico Fishing regulations.

        Take my word for it one can spend years just looking at the principal waterways in NM and interpreting the Indian Spanish and Portuguese names. Every concept we discuss as a clue shows u a place name.

        Questa Halt Halter

        If you gotta spend time somewhere New Mexico is the place to do. I haven’t even mentioned its the clear winner of the culinary treasure hunt.

        Lugnutz

    • frank,
      if Seeker was allowed to come out & play he would know that el vado isn’t fashioned out of concrete

      • The pic I saw shows a concrete section, but mostly dirt backfill. In any case it’s been dammed… Nothing natural about it…So play all ya like.

        As far as going out to play… That is an illusion … Folks want to go have a picnic, that’s fine. I’m trying to solve the poem….

        • Dear seek seek,
          I’m just having some fun @ your expense. You know, I learned something important with this chase business- nothing much stands out about visiting a location until you’ve read about it’s history. i.e. how did it derive it’s name, come into being etc.
          How can you appreciate some flat spot running the width of Wyo, until you’ve read all about prairie schooners & handcarts, the 100’s of thousands who crossed over [primarily on foot] that shallow area of the Cont. Divide?
          As far as the dam, I searched, googled, clicked on every GE photo, studied everything I could find, discovered el vado dam is the only remaining steel plate dam in the US/ only 3 were constructed.
          The dam was problematic from the start, because of the leaky design the lake is more often like a pond, not exactly a prime tourist destination, ultimately it comes down to funding, the money isn’t avail to replace it.

          JDA, after you find the TC you & I will meet up at Great Sand Dunes NP/ Colo and see if we can climb to the top (bring your air canister) I swear you stand in the stream bed, look up & you can barely tell it’s a person up thre unless they wave their arms.

          In Colo we drove up to some lookout point just north of Durango. It looks down in the valley, the Animas river, and found some information plaques along the cliff trail describing the Ute indians & a rock shelter. Later we drove back down, took the short road thru hidden valley, we wanted to hike down to see the falls creek waterfall, it didn’t disappoint. From where we parked, you could just make out the Ute mummy’s rock shelter, opposite side of road.
          I thought long & hard about hiking up to it. Oh yeah it’s prohibited, no question we would’ve got caught & slapped with a fine.
          I hope someone finds the chest before google drops all of the Panoramio pics from GE.

        • 9clues,
          Still, the point to franks wwwh is… a waterway deliberately barricaded is a dam. I could make an argument that a place, such as Earth Quake lake is not a dam, was created by a slide. I think frank is wasting his time looking into a reservoir that is not a natural occurrence.

          But lets look at stanza 2 for a second. In poetry lines are used to read poems for meanings and/or rhyming. Stanza 2 has two sentences.. when read as a sentence;
          begin it where warm waters halt “and’ take it in the canyon down, not far but, too far to walk. This seems to hold several ‘clues’ or pieces of information, possibly, resulting in one conclusion… and not so much three lines of individual clue/hints/deciphered answers.

          Is it the illusion of the poetic structure of a poem’s design that gives the impression of many decipherable clues? When it might be that this sentence give one answer/location/important piece of info only?

          interpretation summery; liquid waters flow to a lower level a short distance but not easily accessed from the point of viewing.
          Sounds like a waterfall, right? One location, and not so much three location or a ‘guess’ on distance to travel. And… could this viewing area already be what hoB represents? “From there…” might be the point we see no place for the meek…
          Or even, no place for the meek may simply mean fear of heights [ line of thinking when view below ] sooo when looking down do we see the blaze?

          The point here is, can all the clue be in one relatively small area? no long drives down road [ maybe a small/easy hike to the lower section of the falls ] [ lets say a 50′ drop ] and to the chest? ~ all hypothetical, but it help eliminate guess work and seems straightforwards in a poetic reading. No traveling down a major canyon or the need to drive around one. No guessing distance. No forcing a dam structure. And LOL, it used 9 lines [ but please, don’t tell anyone I said that ]… The question remains in this scenario… the need to know where to start… are we actually told in the poem where that is?… we have been told all the information to “find” the chest is in the poem. “The clues will lead” us to the chest… But where do we start? Where is the being?… is that what we’re missing?

          Is that why folks deciphered the first two clues and walked past everything else? I’m still reminded of two comment by searchers.
          1. the poem seems to be designed to have us fail at first [ this designed get folks out all over the mountains] and the poem seems to have done it’s job well, right?
          2. In the end, the poem will be easily understood and elegant. [ no 20 page explanation, no book by the finder to tell of the thousands of hours of research, no multi – reconnaissance trips, or trudging through swamps and rivers or up and down miles of canyons ]

          Oh right, sorry, mind wandered away… No Dam.

          • I think you echo my “micro/macro” theory, as well as, what I’ve said about the “meek” locati on is the same place as my “below the joB” location.

            Dual meanings are plentiful within the poem. Beware of the wrong choice.

            That is when the rabbit holes begin.

          • Tim,
            That imo is the problem..or more likely.. the difficultly. Words meanings and usages to align properly phrase, lines, sentences, entire poem, to flow the way fenn intended. He wasn’t going to make it easy, right?

            fenn said… he has said things people think are clues. was that only for the after the fact comments or does it imply the poem as well…? Maybe meek is not a place. Maybe warm is not a temperature, but something more comfortable. Sure warm water can mean comfortable as well… but to only think that ? That to me is a rabbit hole.
            But if it can mean both or even more… that’s a good indication his favorite bathing hole is a good option.

            So, does meek actually mean it’s own place? or could meek mean from hoB or in the example above… that overlook /viewing point?

          • Oi…I think I got an idea.

            I buy a oiuja board, request the presence of someone from FF’s past that may know of the location….and hope for the best!!

            Yeah….simply said, than done, huh?

            With my luck I get that person and they choose to taunt me instead, for the rest of my days…… telling me I will never find it.

            :o)

          • “Is that why folks deciphered the first two clues and walked past everything else? I’m still reminded of two comment by searchers.
            1. the poem seems to be designed to have us fail at first [ this designed get folks out all over the mountains] and the poem seems to have done it’s job well, right?”

            I think I remember seeing this quote in The Wolf’s book. Interesting theory!

          • i agree seeker, the clues could all refer to the same place,
            ff said they are clues to where the chest is . not a route to the treasure.
            so i will be looking for a small area .
            where all the clues fit.
            useing the TTOTC book for hints ,of his special place. IMO

          • Mindy,
            The 1st comment was from The Wolf.. long before he wrote his book. [ and maybe not in those exact words ].

            I’ll give credit to Goofy for the 2nd comment was his. [again, not in his exact words].

            The point to it all, imo, relates to fenn’s comment ~ the finder will ask ~ What took me so long? And fenn’s comment ; ““Some searchers overrate the complexity of the search. Knowing about…”

            Well, you know the rest.

  40. lugnutz thanks for the help el vado is not the place put its about the same thing I was talking about heavy loads and waters high

    • frank,
      why don’t you just go see it for yourself, it’s pretty country. The home of brown could be right there inside Cooper’s store [but it’s not, IMO]

      You need to do your homework frank, research the dam & the area, you’ll find out what makes the dam unique. (hint-no concrete)
      The swinging bridge is neat. There’s an old Air Force radar site/ left side of road about 5 miles before reaching the dam, it’s on the Nat’l Historic registry, just be careful not to step on any rusty nails. Since my buddy served in the AF, he was able to explain what all of the buildings, & foundations were, even though he worked in a radardome in NY.

      Yes the Chama has a horseshoe bend in it. I found a video clip back in ’13, about a reporter, underwater diver, chinking tar ‘filler’ material in the numerous seams of the dam trying to stop up the dam’s numerous leaky seams. Tarry Scant…you can drive yourself crazy with a little information

      • thanks 9 clues – I wish I could go that far north but I have copd the elevation is to high for me – the first time I went to check on my solve I almost died for lack of oxygen so before I got to my location I had to turn around and come back home and haven’t been back – as far as the dam is concern I an close to ff age and I always seen a dam as being made from one end of a mountain to the other and about 30 stories high and made of concrete but ill just leave it at that and that wwwh is a lake cause the name says it is and that hlawh is a reservoir that is my salve and my opinion thanks

        • Frank;

          I have to use an Oxygen Concentrator any time I am above 8,000 feet. Ask your Dr. for a prescription, then take it to a medical supply place. Medicare will cover cost if you are regularly on oxygen, if not, I have to pay $25.00.

          Hope this helps you. JDA

          • jda thanks for your help that is real nice of you to do that – I have oxygen bottles but they don’t seem to work that good in that high elevation I will get my daughters to look in to it – that would realy give me the freedom to go up that way – as far as the $25.oo I think it would be worth it . thanks JDA I will look in to it Monday that is exactly what I need – thank you

          • Frank;
            I have sent you three emails – no reply. Hope you got them. Some have trouble talking to me on AOL – hope this is not the problem. Tell me here if you got them, but can not send. Sorry JDA

          • JD –

            It may prove wise to exhibit caution in corresponding by email with an unknown entity.

            If you don’t mind the suggestion.

            No offense to Frank if he’s real.

            Lugnutz

          • JDA having problums with my computer that’s why you haven’t gotten through please try agian

          • Thanks Lug;

            I suspect Franks question relates to an Oxygen Concentrator, not the chase. I am VERY careful, I have been burned before. Thanks again. JDA

      • lol lugnutz – its good to be careful but its really me Cynthia has my cell phone and my email – we email each other now and then – she also went to check my salve but couldn’t go in there because of no trespassing signs which it didn’t have when I went there the first time

      • lugnutz now that you know that its the real me you can email me when you get

        time I have a question about el vado

    • Thanks for your comment, Seeker.

      I believe a ‘loftstrand’ is actually a crutch as opposed to being a ‘cane.’

      In consideration of the above definition; a cane could be much easier to maneuver than using a crutch would be, IMHO.

      SL

      SL

      • PD,
        I think you’re referring to a woman saying she received a question she ask [ via e-mail ]. I believed she was ask to show it but didn’t know how or something like that…
        She [paraphrasing] claimed her husband was in a wheel chair and could he get to the chest… answer was similar to the three yr.old girl… he would need assistance.

        That’s all I recall… personally I don’t hold much in 2nd and 3rd party discussions. But that’s just me.

        I mean, interviewers claim fenn “told” them WWWH is the first clue or you must start at WWWH… I have never heard fenn say this in any broadcast, audio, or video… yet this comment always comes up as fact, only when a lack of recording is never done.

  41. Just a thought and, as always, this is all “in my opinion”. No facts here – just thinking.

    “put “in” below the home of Brown”, simply means to DIVIDE by “in”. There is no math or anything else to do here. The meaning is just “divide”. Although I did spend a lot of time looking for something related to “Brow/i”. 🙂

    So, where on the CD is the hoB, and what about that capital “B”? Well, assuming you actually figured out WWWH, it reaches out and slaps you right in the face. I wish I could share more on this topic, but it took me forever to finally see the obvious.

    I would also like to add that the “blaze” is just down river. There really is no “blaze” so to say. The word “blaze”, “look quickly down”, and “cease” all combine together to make a clue. Fenn was once asked which way the blaze faced. He didn’t give an answer because the place that clue solves to doesn’t face any particular direction (N, S, E, W, etc.).

    Question – if you wanted to hide something in the wilderness, where would you put it with 100% certainty that it would never be washed away or affected by the spring melt and run off?

    The only way that box is going to move will be by a major geological event, or by human hands (mine I hope).

    Anyway, just wanted to post why I think the chest is hidden on or near the CD, and that I do not believe the “blaze” is the type of object that most people think it is.

    Ok – let the flogging begin. I’m used to it.

    Scott W.

    • q1werty2;

      For what do you need to be flogged? I disagree with almost all that you said, but that is just my opinion.

      I do not see “put in” as divide. I see it as a change of direction. A place where you COULD get out of a river or stream, go ashore, and continue your journey in a new direction.

      OK, so “divide” = Continental Divide. Hard stretch for me, but I am old, and almost any effort is a stretch.

      I will have to take your word for the fact that hoB, something near the CD will slap you in the face. My hoB is more gentle..

      And then you say a mouth full: “I would also like to add that the “blaze” is just down river. There really is no “blaze” so to say. The word “blaze”, “look quickly down”, and “cease” all combine together to make a clue. Fenn was once asked which way the blaze faced. He didn’t give an answer because the place that clue solves to doesn’t face any particular direction (N, S, E, W, etc.). ”

      My blaze is physical, but Forrest is correct it does not point N,S,E or W.

      Question – if you wanted to hide something in the wilderness, where would you put it with 100% certainty that it would never be washed away or affected by the spring melt and run off? – Obviously on some “High Ground”.

      The only way that box is going to move will be by a major geological event, or by human hands (mine I hope). – my wish exactly – Thanks for the post. JDA

    • Scott, you got my attention… give a shout out, you have my addy, would really like to chat about this.

    • Hi Scot in my chase there’s a physical blaze and it does point in two different directions if you been wise and then you look down.

  42. Querty2 , If ‘put in below’ means divide by in, then does “of’ in “home of Brown” mean multiply?

  43. here is my opinion on heavy loads – if you take it in the canyon down and you go passed where water is being released in to a creek – there would no longer be a creek there for to me it would mean no paddle – to get to the blaze you would have to go north to the upper part of this body of water which would be high elevation making it waters high its just a thought and my opinion – no creek no paddle – waters high north high elevation

  44. I have read all the scrap books, and discussions. From what I have read from Dal, and all the other searches, plus the poem, I have come to this conclusion. This is only my opinion. There is a place in the Rocky Mountains that has a canyon, and in that canyon, not far from the main cold water flow, is a, or some hot, or warm springs. The warm water flows down into the cold water, of this main water flow. The warm water runs into this cold ( river? ) And the warm water mixes with the cold water, making the warm water come to halt, or makes the warm water stop from being warm. ( begin it where warm waters halt )

    From there, take it in the canyon down, how far down this river canyon? That is
    a good question! Somewhere down this canyon water way, is the home of Brown. There has to be a road close to this water coarse, probably on the other
    side of the road from the river. There must be a sign that probably says BEWARE OF BEARS. Beyond this sign, up hill is no place for the meek. Why, because there may be bears with their cubs in the area, this is a very dangerous place to be in. Bear spray, and something to make noise is needed,
    for safety. Somewhere between the home of Brown bears, and the place you can see the blaze is a small stream you have to cross, where you can not use a paddle. You go on up to the place, you can see the blaze, and look down.

    • Sounds like a good beginning to me. I personally am not sure that the hoB refers to bears, but who knows. Good luck – KEEP THINKIN’ JDA

    • If you click the “reply” button below someones post, your post will fall under it, and not off to the left – Just in case you did not know that. JDA

      • What, JDA? I don’t have a computer, I use a phone and the whole website is up & down, everyone’s posts are all in a row up & down. So if you use a computer the posts are sideways? Probably the whole site looks different if you use a computer, right? I’m probably missing all kinds of stuff!

  45. A comment by Forrest Fenn made to some young students .
    Mr. f – I applaud you and so respect why you have sent that question to them .
    Bless you for that one. Sometimes you really do something good.

    Today as I went up the stair, I met a man who wasn’t there. He wasn’t there again today, oh how I wish he’d go away.
    My thought is –

    As I was falling down the stair
    I met a bump that wasn’t there;
    It might have put me on the shelf
    Except I wasn’t there myself

    Thank you for all you do !!!

  46. I haven’t posted in a few days. My headache is gone now, due to the support of Pdenver and the pain is gone. So here is my opinion and my solution. “Put in below” in the structure of the Poem in which it does have structure. It means to Inter. To permanently place and not necessarily meaning a body. It just depends how far you go back, not far though, and the hole is not that deep.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FscIgtDJFXg

    • I’m glad you’re feeling better, GEYDELKON. Would you be so kind to explain how I did this, please?

      • So what can I say because you mentioned it. Remember the comment “Someone pass GEYDELKON a couple of Ibuprofenn, please”. Had to laugh.

        Well sometimes my eyes strain when I look at the first clue “Pueblo at Sunset” by Moran. I just dont know what I am looking at but it does look very nice in my living room. There I go popping those pills.

          • pdenver, always remember the quote. “I was born a hundred years too late. f..”

            This a very weighted comment to me and probably the most important. If you think about it then you will understand why it confirms my Moran painting. Just sayin. I did say it was the first clue in the Poem but I didn’t say it was the first clue in the solve.

    • Has anyone thought that perhaps 2 can keep a secret if one is dead to mean possibly Deadmans creek .?

  47. Today I decided to drop another bomb so to speak. Here it is. The Fenn books contain hidden themes. Shakespeare injected hidden themes across multiple plays. Fenn has injected hidden themes across the chapters of his books. One such theme is the Big Picture. It’s a roadmap of the continental US. It includes multiple east west routes and one north south route. The map of course leads to the treasure site. The map starts as east as New York and west as Los Angeles. Some cities are obvious, and others much more subtle. I like what f is doing. He’s a fighter pilot and he’s going head to head with Shakespeare. Nice.

    • Umm, sure, why not…
      Could you explain how searchers were at the location of the first two clues and walked by the remaining clues and the chest..IF “The map starts as east as New York and west as Los Angeles.”

      Just curious.

      • Seeker. You are a rude one. I don’t owe you any explanation. Stop fishing and work for your solve. I don’t even read your comments anymore. Back off.

        • Whining already?
          You come here and voluntarily make comments you claim are what fenn did.
          Yet when asked a simple question about how it contradict what fenn has stated… you go on the defensive and call me rude.. which I can’t really argue, only to say; I’m so misunderstood…

          So why is it all you brainiacs want to tell the world how smart you are, but when someone ask a question, your wannabe 160 IQ ego starts to melt down.

          Trust me, I don’t fish in the stagnant waters… it only makes me ill.

          • Seeker, how does what you posted that f stated contradict what Iceman said…I don’t get it.

          • fundamentaldesign,

            I get where ya going with this… east to west, one north to south route… an X right?
            I picked up what he/she was putting down…

            Yet, fenn has stated in first two clues comment[s] searcher walked by the remaining clues… and the chest.
            IF the clues in Iceman theory: “The map starts as east as New York and west as Los Angeles.”
            and other clues take a north and south direction and all over the continual USA…
            Without any explanation on his part how the clues work as a map to the treasure… don’t ya think the question I presented about the first two clues comment was a reasonable one?

            But lately it seems many just want to spout off and not explain what their spouting off about, even when a simple question is asked.
            So what’s the point in coming to a discussion board if they don’t want to discuss what they claim?

            Maybe I just didn’t fluffinutter my inquiry enough for his sensitive ego.

          • Seeker,

            I was asking your interpretation of Iceman’s comments cause I don’t know where he’s going with it. I wouldn’t assume that he’s leading to putting an X on his map he’s talking about. Could be, but that’s not for me to say for certain. He seemed to have given further details than just that some roads intersect.

            If you think Iceman was implying that then I still don’t understand how that contradicts the f quote you posted. Can you explain this contradiction you mention cause it’s still a mystery. I’m just curious.

          • Fun,
            It’s really a guess to what Iceman is implying, for the simple fact he doesn’t attempt to explain the thought process at all… and that was my point.

            So, by using what he did say… starting point … clues travel all over the USA north south east and west… the contradiction is, fenn has stated searcher told him where they searched and he know they walked by the remaining seven clues and the chest.

            How can a theory start on the east coast, travel to the west coast, and north and south covering the USA… Even using 4 of the clues to do so, would mean those searchers could not have “walked” by the remaining “seven” clue.

            Again, If a poster doesn’t want to be asked questions, on a blog designed for discussion… why bother saying anything at all.

          • Seeker,

            Iceman didn’t say clues start from east coast to west coast or whatever. Iceman didn’t use the word clue. He said something like hidden themes in the book and then presented this one as a big picture theme. Totally different than what you’re interpreting that as. Not good.

          • How the heck do you “start” If it’s not a clue… seriously.
            Iceman’s statement: The map of course leads to the treasure site. The map **starts** as east as New York and west as Los Angeles.

            So how do we get to the east of anything if it doesn’t involve a clue.. the “starting” clue. Why would we go west to the Pacific if it doesn’t involve a clue? Then we switch gear and headed north and south… Clue? well if it’s not, then I have no clue.

            Maybe you can explain it…because he’s sulking, playing with his gun, and doesn’t want to play here… at least your trying to have a some kinda conversation about.
            But … it may remain a mystery for all time. Or until the book comes out.

          • oh c’mon Seeker – just admit that you’re not as skilled at back-peddling as you claim to be at hunting. The stomping remark was a good example, albeit a valiant attempt at a recovery 🙂

            i (for one) am curious to hear more of Icemans ideas and explanations as to how Forrests books are secretly themed,
            and being right or wrong (or somewhere in-between) puts him squarely in exactly the same boat as the rest of us

            ( ..unless ken has sneaked out in the dead of night, with camo-painted face, knife between his teeth and theme music to Rocky throbbing in the back-ground, and already located the chest by skilful ‘stomping’ – in which case i might feel compelled to eat Jakes hat
            ..voluntarily 🙁 )

          • Hobs –
            I am just getting started. There will be more hidden themes to come. I have more bombs left under my wing.

          • Better hurry Bert,
            My hat is being eaten by microbes & will be retired in a few months.

          • thanks Oscar, but that’s just a little too much information for my queazy tummy
            (shudders)

            ..do you own any new hats lately? ..or a strawberry flavoured hat perchance?
            🙂

          • Fun and Ice, you did say “The map of course leads to the treasure site. The map starts as east as New York and west as Los Angeles”. If the map leads to the treasure site, then it would intersect a clue somewhere. So, Seekers question is reasonable. The comment, just having fun or whatever seems like you’re changing your mind on your “bomb dropping” and not facing the question presented, which is reasonable.

          • Think of it this way Charlie, the Poem trail begins where the Big Picture trails end. If you are having trouble with the first couple clues, this could put you in the right starting gate. Get it?

          • Ohhhh, do you mean horse racing? Okay, I get it now…Look for a starting gate. Kentucky, right? Yeah, I still don’t see it… Sorry. Switch to smart bombs. 🙂

          • Well Charlie – I guess that by definition if you haven’t yet figured out the first clue, it means you are … hmm … clueless is it? If you have the first clue, you certainly don’t care about the Big Pucture. It won’t add anything to your solve.

          • 10-4 Iceman – foxhole dug, eyes peeled and popcorn at the ready 🙂

          • Seeker,

            You said ‘How the heck do you “start” if it’s not a clue?…seriously”.

            Easy, just like the poem. You don’t actually think we are to start figuring out the poem where it says “begin” do you? The lines prior to begin it where warm waters halt could have a hint in it. But, f gets to pick the starting point which he might have done with wwwh.

            Anything further away from the tc than f’s starting point isn’t considered a clue to f’s Chase as he has defined a clue. It’s all relative to f’s starting point or where to “begin”.

            Also, it’s a reasonable question to ask what you asked. But, I still haven’t seen the proof that it’s a contradiction as there’s been plenty of things brought up that doesn’t mesh with what’s been assumed.

            Someone else said Iceman’s big picture map must cross cross over the clues since it ends up at the tc. That’s a huge leap of faith from what Iceman has described. It’s putting the cart before the horse. His map might not be thinking the right things and so doesn’t come close to any of the clues…who knows.

          • Fun,
            I do get what your saying… One dilemma for me has been what is a clue vs. a hint. My one theory has, AS I have to the possibly of a location to start at, ISA lake.

            If correct, is it a clue or a hint? Which bring up another problem that if a clue wwwh might be clue #2, but that’s another story.

            You said in part: “Anything further away from the tc than f’s starting point isn’t considered a clue…”

            Why? Does it matter if a clue starts in TX? or is that only a hint because of distance. I’m not really understanding this part of your comment… even using fenn’s comment of hint and clues.

            The problem I see here with Icamans comment goes even further. Since we’re discussing a posting, I’ll add these;
            Iceman comments;
            “There aren’t just a couple hints in the books, there are thousands of hints in TTOTC and TFTW” { so, fenn has stated a couple and even if we take liberty that fenn didn’t want to narrow down exactly how many hints… a thousand? and in a later post defend his comment as correct but no real explanation for discussion }{ I won’t bother getting into the tftw part, but there is a direct answer to that question}

            “You will not be able to decipher the poem until you find the remaining clues in the book.
            Maybe one of the reasons the Chase is so perplexing is that f threw in just one or two mistruths.
            I have been out looking already and stood no more than 3 feet from my spot but did not know it til I returned from the trip.” {fenn has stated no red herrings in the poem, fenn has stated all the information to find the chest is in the poem – and many other comments about the book, fenn has stated its unlikely anyone within 12′ of the chest couldn’t find it}.
            If someone posting along these lines of thoughts… there will be challenges to them… that’s the whole point of discussions.

            But instead of actually explaining how he came to all these conclusions when they seem to contradict many of fenns comments… he gets upset at being challenge…LOL There are many things Iceman has claimed that do contradict many of fenn’s statements but when asked about them…???

            But I’m gonna be honest with ya Fun, I don’t ‘pretend’ to know the answers to hint or clues or much of anything else… BUT i’m more than will to have an adult conversation about…

          • Seeker,

            Thanks for your latest reply. I’m not gonna go into Iceman’s other comments cause I just focused on the aspect that I brought up, plus I can’t find his other comments. I just focused on his initial comment that you reponded to saying it was a contradiction. I have the opinion that it doesn’t contradict the words of f you posted because iceman was talking about getting his big picture theory from the book…and we all know clues don’t come from the book but the poem.

            I can further explain my theory on what’s a clue and not a clue in the poem. F’s definition of a clue (as it pertains to the Chase) is essentially something in the poem that gets one closer to the tc. F, and nobody else, got to pick where he wanted the beginning point to be. IMO, he chose wwwh cause he says begin it…

            So, if there’s some info in stanza 1 that helps us get the correct wwwh then that’s not necessarily considered a clue. Our quest doesn’t really start until we’re at the correct wwwh. If there’s important info to figure out in stanza one f could consider that to be a hint, especially since he uses the word hint in the stanza. Hope that explains my thought better.

          • The debate of hint vs. clues will continue until the solve is presented. I can see it your way, and I can also say that if a location is given that could be a clue as well…because it got you closer.

            The point to that is how we perceive how we understand the next piece of information [ hint or clue ] For all we know there could be 4 hints in stanza one… and without those pieces of information we can’t get farther along… so if we can’t move forwards without that information it must be a clue, right?. All about perceptive.

            The other point to all this might involve, why fenn stated 9 clues and not ‘just clues’ in the poem.

            And yet, we still have the thought that IF a “hint” gives us a starting point and that is all it is, is a starting point… it can be found almost anywhere in the poem, right?

            By the rule that the clues are in order… and the “clues” “lead” to the chest… then stanza 5 or 6 could have that starting point… following the rules.

            LOL. but, then again, most thought that deciphering the first clues was the golden ticket and we just skip happily from the next clue to the next… because without the first clue we have notta, right?

            So why does it now not seem to be that way?
            Could it be how we need to understand better, what exactly a clue is vs. a hint, and why we need “9” clues?

            There is still a lot of analogizing needing to be done imo… Well, with the exceptions of all those who know they have the correct solve that is.

            Some of my question are;
            why can someone be at and/or mentioned the correct first clue and not know it, even when on location?
            What is that Important possibility we need for winning the prize?
            Is the starting point hinted or is the staring point a clue [ for the reason stated above, why 9 clues ].
            If the poem will lead us to the chest, and we don’t need to read the book, but the book can help… is the book truly necessary? or just helpful? [ anything is better then nothing, line of thinking ].

            So I’ll ask all, what are some of your questions you ask yourself about how to get started…

          • Seeker,

            I don’t agree with your statement summarized here…there could be 4 hints in the first stanza and if that information doesn’t get us closer than it’s got to be a clue, right?

            You’re missing something. The operative thought is closer from “where”. F could have chose anywhere to start the 9 clues. The geographical location that corresponds to the first clue (wwwh possibly) is where he writes in the poem to start from. He didn’t say start from Seeker’s place or my place. He prbly has to start the first leg of the quest at a particular spot so everyone can get there and start at the same place.

            So, any info that provides hints like possibly the first stanza and the few hints in TTOTC aren’t considered clues to f because they just help with the clues. In other words, they can possible get you to the right geographical point of the correct wwwh and once you are there clues 2-9 get you closer to the tc on each successive figuring. That’s how f has defined hints and clues. I wouldn’t change the definition of those like you did above.

          • I meant to write in my last post on Seekers quote…if the hints in stanza one GET us closer then that should be considered a clue.

          • For those who have read my posts, know that I posted my general solve with “eleven clues” embedded within the poem.

            Some folks questioned me….some outright dismiss my thoughts.

            Not a problem folks…..this si why I say there are eleven (11) embedded within the poem.

            FF never states that there is only nine (9)……”I think the number stayed about the same” is not an exact number.

            http://mysteriouswritings.com/featured-question-with-forrest-fenn-and-the-thrill-of-the-chase-treasure-hunt-toponymy-or-geography/

            Question posted 6/29/2014:

            Forrest, Did you intend for there to be 9 clues, or did it work out to be just right with 9? ~ halo
            Nice thinking halo, I didn’t count the clues until the poem had been finalized. Although I changed it a few times over the months I think the number stayed about the same.f

          • Sorry – I meant to add….the two coins I did list above….one was a $10.00 coin and the other a $20.00 coin and I may have been incorrect on the Mint Mark data.

            So here are a couple of links for comparison to show values that could be assigned.

            $10 coin:
            https://www.ngccoin.com/coin-explorer/indian-head-10-1907-1933-pscid-68/1910-d-10-ms-coinid-18866
            https://www.ngccoin.com/coin-explorer/indian-head-10-1907-1933-pscid-68/1911-d-10-ms-coinid-18869

            $20.00 coin:
            https://www.ngccoin.com/coin-explorer/liberty-head-20-1850-1907-pscid-69/1907-d-20-ms-coinid-19053

          • I have the 9 clues all in the same state, if you must know. I would put my first clue up against anyone who thinks they have it “nailed” down. The big picture? All in the same state. IMO. Seeker just asked a simple question which should be easy enough to answer. Like many before, and many after, the answer is clouded with smoke and mirrors. Not answered, but “ohhh, the answer will amaze you, or when you figure it out you’ll ask, what took so long?” kind of comment. If you bring it up, just answer the question. Show some proof. Then, maybe a post that doesn’t need to be dragged out such as this one was could be understood from the get go. Still haven’t answered him. So forget it, will chalk it up as another person who is smarter and has figured it out better than anyone else. When you run out of ammunition, maybe we’ll get an answer then and will understand. Until then, just typical B.S.

          • Seeker,

            Yesterday morning in this thread you asked this at the end of your post, “So I’ll ask all, what are some of your questions you ask yourself about how to get started…”

            Man, oh man, what a question. Where do I start sharing about how to start? Quoting Winston Churchill when commenting about Russia, “It is a riddle, wrapped in a mystery, inside an enigma,,,” I would add, “inside a poem.”

            Research – follow all leads, no matter how trivial or far-fetched they may be. I suspect that the person that picks up Indulgence where it sets now will be way more than lucky. “Luck is what happens when preparation meets opportunity.” – Vince Lombardi. Live the Boy Scout motto: “Be prepared.”

            Sherlock Holmes would say something along the lines of giving the correct kind of attention to the matters at hand, or observing the important and ignoring the obvious, are traits that one will need to employ in finding Indulgence.

            So truth be told, I am guilty of getting hung up on the obvious. For me, I need to focus more on the “end of the game” and less on the “rabbit trails” I happen across – even though the rabbit trails can be a lot of fun. 🙂

            While probably not exactly what you were after in asking your question, it is my opinion that we each need to determine for ourselves how much do we want to, nay, need to, invest in this endeavor to be the successful finder of Indulgence? For myself, I am at a point in life where I must still balance the many outside influences that I have little or no control over against the amount of effort I can put into this chase. For my part, I check in here on Dal’s blog to see what’s new to see if anyone has a new and novel way of looking at things. (And to also see if anyone is thinking along my line of reasoning – or at least sharing that they are.)

            I am not a fan of the Borg, however, being a collective here on Dal’s blog helps all of us. I have learned so much from what others have posted – even stuff that might aide me in my quest to finding Indulgence. While we all can learn from one another, in the end, we must strike out on our own to be alone in the wood.

    • Iceman. Perhaps I understand or maybe not. Are you inferring that in FF speak; that he is using 2 directional methods? One being as a plot using geomagnetic compass as the N.E.W.S and speaking in that perspective as what is ,for example, of what or where is “down” . Then also speaking in geophysical N.E.W.S as using a road map of what or where is “down” . So, he writes in 2 ways of speak accordingly from his perspective of navigation either in the sky above and that of navigation from the ground? Sounds Shakespearean to me. Your example is just coast to coast, left and right speak as examples but not implying starting in those States?

  48. I know quite a few folks believe the first clue is in the first stanza. Is anyone of the opinion that the “voice” in Stanza 1 IS NOT Forrest?

    • Could the first four stanzas be narrated?
      and, in part, the reason for stanza five to start out…So why is it I must go and leave ” my trove…”
      There is a difference between treasure and trove…

      • Seeker,

        It’s a possibility. My solution isn’t new, but this is a new idea that’s been formulating in my head for a couple days. I like to shoot at my solve from different angles to see where the vulnerabilities may be hiding.

        I can see Stanzas 1 thru 4 as a narration with a switch to Fenn as speaker beginning with Stanza 5.

        However, I’m leaning more toward Stanza 1 coming from a personified voice and all remaining stanzas spoken by Fenn. So far, that’s the only way that I’ve been able to see Stanza 1 as being a clue or, perhaps more accurately described, as a hint since I don’t see it as taking me closer to the final location.

        • Don’t get me wrong… the narrating, in this thought, would be fenn, but is he talking about himself, another, or possibly both… a mix, if you will, of two going to the same place but in different times.

          Kinda following the thought… two can keep a secret if one is dead.

          • Hi Seeker,
            I find you often say things I would prefer were left unsaid. Like you are always sniffing around but you don’t know how close you are getting. Maybe it’s just that I have a different approach than you and yet I find our thinking on a number of topics, not the iceage BTW, to be eerily similar. Since you are always so forthcoming with your opinion, who do you think the other guy might be? What do you make of the perceived dichotomy in Forrest’s insistence that no one else knows of the location while reiterating that two people can keep a secret if one of them is dead?

          • Blazeone,
            I’m not sure if there is another or not.. I just can read the poem as such.

            Trust me when I say, I get what your saying; “Like you are always sniffing around but you don’t know how close you are getting.”

            Sometime I feel I have many piece but getting the ducks in a row is still in the training stage.

            I’m missing something. I think we all are to be honest. My nose is sniffing for that important possibility factor.

            That is why I come to the blog… not for others solves [ heck I don’t believe anyone is remotely close to solving the clues. ] I read something and it kick start a thought… So the more I talk about my crap, I the more crap I get… or something like that…

          • Blaze,
            As far as the comment ‘Forrest’s insistence that no one else knows of the location’

            It simply mean he’s the only one that know the “spot” of the chest. Nothing more, nothing less. in my mind.
            But that doesn’t mean someone else has not been there… the clues are just that difficult that [ if still alive ] they would be in the same boat we are.

            But if we ponder the thought… 15 years to create the poem and 7-8-9 years to hide the chest… What was the hold up?
            The book took a short time to write.
            Setting up a publishing company couldn’t have taken that long.
            He already ruined the story by beating the cancer.
            Why 20 plus years in the making?

            Indecision is the key to flexibility?

        • The two can keep a secret if one of them is dead line has a lot of possibilities. I’ve run across several in my thoughts. Your example is one very valid possibility, IMO.

          I THINK I get what you’re saying…i.e., Forrest is describing his own journey through/within a physical environment and his entry “in there,” and it is identical to, and therefore describes, a historical and identical journey to the same location by another person who is now deceased? Do you suspect the “other” person is someone Fenn knew in his lifetime or someone that was born 100 (or so) before Fenn?

          My thought was more along the lines that in the first Stanza, which Forrest obviously authored, he gives an object a voice (he personifies the object). By doing this, the object of personification is subtly whispering to the reader of its existence.

          This is, of course, a VERY subtle hint and, in and of itself, is not really adequate for a searcher to discover what the object is. Later in the poem a clue is provided as to what the object is, IMO.

          In my opinion, the poem contains both hints and clues. The hints help confirm the clues. For example, I suspect that the lines containing “wise,” “cold,” “brave,” and “wood” are not clues but hints that help you to solve, or confirm, your solution to the clues.

          • At the Top,
            I too have thought about an object… and the reason for my question to fenn. {basically} is there anything in the chest that relates to the spot?
            No. { the “she” answer }
            So if there is an object, I would think it would need to be external to the chest, and something placed..
            not natural.

            I would really like to hear more of your thoughts on that.

          • Assuming for the moment that my search area is correct, then EVERYTHING in the chest is related to the general location, but IMO not the exact spot where it is hidden.

            I actually did not see the connection until well after a lot of reading and other hints eventually led me to the general area. Then I discovered something online and as soon as I read it I realized it was the final confirmation I needed that I am in the right area.

            I have since been trying to piece the rest of the puzzle together and I think I’m getting very close. A BTOG family outing is planned for this July and should be a lot of fun whether we find it or not.

            Take care everyone and enjoy the beauties of nature.

    • I think the narrator throughout the entire poem is Forrest.

      People are over-thinking the poem, but in it FF is “shooting
      us straight”, even though imagination is required for a
      correct solve of the poem. And even there may be several
      “layers” to the poem, it does give straightforward directions
      for finding the TC. There is no subterfuge involved.

      I think he gave good advice by saying “Look at the big
      picture, there are no shortcuts” (I may have gotten the
      punctuation a little wrong, but the words are correct in the
      quoted line in this paragraph). All my opinion.

  49. The poem is in the book. Don’t mess with the poem. Many years to refine and perfect. It is all from Forrest
    MM
    Begin it where warm Waters halt… First bread crumb.

  50. FF has said that there are hints in the book. One should not go overboard on relying on the hints. What we may consider a hint may not be a FF hint. So here ls the problem, following your own hints will get you nowhere. So rely on the poem more than hints.
    MM

  51. Finally, FF confirmed on Jenny’s site this morning the clues are not NAMES of places…I think that’s what he meant:

    Dear Forrest, What’s more important in solving the search, a greater knowledge (“knowlege”) of Toponymy or Geography? ~Chris

    I don’t know how Toponymy can help you at all Chris (I had to look that word up). But if you knew the geographic location of each clue it would be a map to the treasure. f

    I also had to look up the word toponymy. It means: “the study of place names”. I guess I can put away my book “The Place Names of New Mexico”.

    Still waiting for the snow to melt in New Mexico.

      • I just read that and would not quite interpret his words that way. The name of a place can suggest a location too.

        • Can you give an example of what you mean by “The name of a place can suggest a location too.”

          • It applies to any and all cities for example. Just google the name of your favorite city in the Rockies plus the words “lat long” and it will take you to the exact GPS coordinates attributed to that place.

      • Cynthia – there is only one place imo that has a name and that is a structure that is man made

    • That was my understanding as well. Clues in the poem, like WWWH, are not linked to place names, like Agua Fria.

      • nmc, the names of some places are crucially
        important to a correct solve of the poem. None of
        these actual names (such as Mt. Everest) actually appear in the poem. For example, there’s no place
        formally called “Heavy Loads” that is part of the
        solve. But there are at least 2 named places that do
        satisfy clues in the poem. IMO.

    • Cynthia wrote “FF confirmed on Jenny’s site this morning the clues are not NAMES of places…I think that’s what he meant”

      “Confirmed” is a strong way to put it.

      IMO, what he said was “I don’t know how [the study of place names] can help you at all Chris.”

      Which is not quite the same as saying that “the clues are not NAMES of places.”

      K

      (“TOPONYMY is the study of place names, their origins, meanings, use, and typology.”)

      • J A Kraven,

        Pretty much everything has a name; mountains, rivers, woodland, oceans [ which if we really look at the world.. is nothing more that a big body of water.]

        But it sure seems that those names will not help as references to a clue.

        For a hypothetical example; IF Devils Tower had a body of water on top, the reference to HLAWH might apply.
        But IF, because of the name “Devil” and the reference is to “No place for the meek” I highly doubt that would be correct by using the name as a clue.

        Not my best example but I think ya get my drift.

        • So Seeker: will you be disappointed or feel deceived if it turns out that most of the clues are indeed actual place names to be found on a map? Recall that Forrest said the poem will be harder to solve in a thousand years, and there could be many reasons for that. Wouldn’t you agree that if a place name or two changes over the centuries that that is going to contribute to the greater difficulty? (It actually doesn’t make it that much harder; a future searcher should be wise enough to use maps that were contemporary with the poem’s creation era.)

          • Zap…I am not So Seeker…but I will say that it sounds like you may be shape shifting a bit to reconcile your solve to Fenn’s latest comment. If your solve relies on place names…you may be in too deep….but I do wish you luck. When are you heading to your spot?

          • Hi Ken — there’s no shape-shifting required by me. This latest Q&A from Forrest does not address whether the clue’s answers are place names. That Forrest has said toponymy has nothing to do with solving his poem should only be a concern to people that have been burrowing into the meanings of words.

            Like everyone else, I’m in a holding pattern until the 6+ months of winter end.

          • Zap; As one who burrows into the meanings of words, this post does not affect my solve one iota. There are no “Place Names” in the poem, as written. Therefore, No “Place Names” to look up. JDA

          • SoZap, i’m in your camp on this too

            maybe Forrest is referring to the ‘study, origins, meanings’ of place names as not being useful, rather than the place names themselves

            “The clues did not exist when I was a kid but most of the places the clues refer to did..”

            ..but then again, maybe the clues ARE devoid of named locations, and refer entirely to un-named geographical features, given that ‘places’ doesn’t necessarily refer to ‘named’ places or locations

            (hmmm.. ok, my brain really hurts now!)

            – SoHobs

          • @hobbit – you echo my post, in that the only body of water in TTOTC that is not labeled as a designated location….was “secret fishing hole”.

            I think sometime after I posted that, it was rebuked as an aberration.

            I think not, in lieu of the current discussion now being stated.

            Once again we see a HINT that could be directing us to look for an un-named location.

          • CH ~”maybe Forrest is referring to the ‘study, origins, meanings’ of place names as not being useful, rather than the place names themselves”

            I know you add to this comment and looked at both side of the fence… but if fenn was referring to “the study of” Then people and animals and plants should be involved with comprehensive knowledge of geography as well… Yet he refer to geographic locations only.

            Just saying…

          • i def try to interpret things as simplistically as possible, Seeker

            so if the poem reads “begin it at the first tree on the left..” i only need to know what a tree looks like, and which way is “left” ..but i don’t need to know how tall the tree is, who planted it or even what it’s Latin name is (and no ..don’t even think about it Zap! 🙂 )

            so a geo-locale may have a place name that’s relevant to the poem, but that ‘place’ doesn’t necessarily require any in-depth study per-se, to be of any more use than it’s already been
            ..well, that’s my humble interpretation anyhoos

          • Nicely put CF..
            I agree 101%.
            You need a fan club…
            or a following…
            or a bell so we know where you are at…

          • thanks Dal, but given that you guys seem to have a weird tradition of burying every bell in sight, i think i’ll graciously pass on that

            you’re welcome to join my thriving fan-club though ..so far there’s me and SL (that’s double digits ..in roman numerology)
            ..it’ll be fun 🙂

        • Zap,
          It’s not a question of a location ‘having a name’… it about whether the “name” refers to a clue or not.
          As to the difficulty of the poem/clues in the future… that was explained… The RM’s [ range ] is still moving.

          As to a future searcher, I can only give this as an opinion… NO research other than getting familiar with the lay of the land itself… We are attempting to find a 10″ sq piece of land [ I don’t care what is there ] its the spot we need to find… if the movement of the area changes something… the future searcher may need to take that movement into account.

          • Seeker

            You say, “It’s not a question of a location ‘having a name’… it about whether the “name” refers to a clue or not.”

            In my solve, one clue IS the result of a place name.” Without this place having a particular name, I would not have been able to find it and match it up with the clue.

            Of the nine clues, this is the only one where NAME was important…well, maybe one more. JDA

          • Insert full Forrest quote here,

            “The clues did not exist when I was a kid but most of the places the clues refer to did. I think I they might still exist in 100 years but the geography probably will change before we reach the next millennia.”
            There is the reason it will be more difficult. Also a hint, I M O. If geography figures so heavily in the correct solution we must be aware of why geographic features change in a relatively short period of time. There is meat on these bones. Most, but probably not all of the PLACES the clues refer to were around roughly 80 years ago. In addition they MIGHT not be around in another 100 years, almost assuredly not 1000. However, I believe, the actual location of the chest is relatively safe from all but the most severe weather/fire. Make of this what you will. Forrest says geography, we should listen good.

        • Seeker — you didn’t really answer my question. Let me be more blunt with a completely made-up example. What if clue #1 was *literally* “TOLEDO.” Would this bother you?

          “It’s not a question of a location ‘having a name’… it about whether the “name” refers to a clue or not.”

          What I’m trying to say is what if the clue *IS* the name? I mean literally identical. I’m not suggesting that all the clues are like this, but what if one or more are? And can you find anything that Forrest has said or written that would contradict the theory that the answers to most of the clues in the poem are literally place names on a map?

          “As to the difficulty of the poem/clues in the future… that was explained… The RM’s [ range ] is still moving.”

          Sure, but the place names will move right along with the ground, except in a few cases like tectonic plate boundaries, or rivers changing directions, or perhaps the occasional supervolcano eruption.

          • I will go ahead and back Zap on this one – and for those who do the research, Steganography is not a cipher in any way, shape, or form. It is a method of hiding a message in plain sight, if one is willing to look a bit closer. There is a reason Forrest mentioned “DO NOT MESS WITH MY POEM”. Think about that statement, people. Truly think about it. Why would it be such a big deal to change even the slightest thing about its construction, unless the exact placement itself was important?

            Zap has been more than generous with trying to steer people in the right direction, but it’s up to you to decide how you want to approach the poem.

          • My apologies, this got posted to the wrong comment. Can someone adjust please? Was in response to Zap and Seekers discussion below re: Stegonagraphy.

          • imajin, I believe the poem may be directional, hence, not to mess with the poem. This is an opinion, offered as a thought.

          • Thank you, Imajin for taking a chance on my ideas. That’s all I ask of anyone.

        • Well guys we can play semantic with names… Toponymy is nothing more than the study of… So hypothetically if you need to ‘study’ the name at all… Nope, not a clue. I can’t get any simpler than that.

          Zap, you say whatIF a name is a clue literally… Well, wouldn’t it literally need to be in the poem?

          I try and look at all angel of everything… when fenn stated; “I don’t know how Toponymy can help you at all” AT ALL pretty much clarified it.

          But I’m willing to hear an argument [ which needs some kinda compelling information.. not just “in my solve” or “whatif” ] for the possibility of name[s] are references needed for a clue.

          Other wise the statement stands on it own… ya know… from the guy who wrote the poem.

          And Zap, Disappointment is part of life… IF what you say is true… I’m not the one that will need a bottle of Ibuprofenn. I’m smart enough not to invest money into something until I’m sure of what the outcome should be. I play by my rules…
          At this point in time… time is in my favor.

          • Seeker, from your answer you do not understand what toponymy is. The bottom line is that you just don’t like place names having anything to do with solving the poem, while I believe they are absolutely integral and essential, and that the poem is impossible to solve without them.

            “Please go back to the poem and look at maps for your answers.”

            When I look at maps, I see thousands of place names, and if I want to tell someone where to go, guess how I’m going to do it?

            “Zap, you say whatIF a name is a clue literally… Well, wouldn’t it literally need to be in the poem?”

            Yes it would. And in my opinion they are — if you know how to ride that backward bike.

          • C’mon Zap, lets knock off the BS and get down in the dirt… are you saying the reverse bike is meant to imply reverse reading or mirror image of the poem?

            Then just spit it out and say it… if not tell me what you really mean. I’m not a dang mind reader. That way we don’t need 100 posting just to understand a conversation.

            It’s not a matter of what I like or dislike… It doesn’t matter what you like or dislike… what matter is understand what fenn is relaying.

            Give me something compelling to actually talk about…instead of asking me my feelings… we’re not on a date.

          • “…are you saying the reverse bike is meant to imply reverse reading or mirror image of the poem?”

            No, I’m saying that some clues require an alternative approach to simply reading the words in the poem. Your “ISA” is an example of one simple approach; there are many other ways to hide information in plain sight.

            I’ve said this dozens of times over the last year, in many different ways, but I’ll say it more concisely: I believe Forrest used a simple (but obviously effective) form of steganography. And before anyone cries foul, steganography is not a cipher or encryption method. Most are unwilling to investigate or even consider this possibility, perhaps because they are too invested in their own methods of unraveling the poem’s clues. Human nature, and I can’t help that. If the chest is found and the method revealed while Dal’s fine site is still around, people can look back to see who was on the right track, and who was off in the weeds.

          • Zap;

            Wishing you all the best, but fear that you will be needing a case of bug repellant as you wander in the weeds. Just my opinion though. TRY to STAY SAFE in the weeds though. JDA

          • Hi Oz: good question. In ciphers, the letters of the message are either changed (substitution cipher) or rearranged (transposition) or both. In steganography, the letters stay the same, as does their order in most instances. A notable difference between a cipher and stego is that with the former no attempt is made to disguise the fact that a message has been encrypted. With stego, you don’t even know there IS a hidden message to uncover.

          • Zap, will you consider ‘A Valentine’ from Edgar Allan Poe a cipher or a steganograph?

          • Zap,
            regardless of the what the method is called… isn’t hiding a message within a message a coded message? One that has a pattern to be decoded. It doesn’t matter how simple or advance the code… it’s still a code message.
            Doesn’t sound straightforward to me, in any meaning of the word.

            So, lets say “technically” your correct with this method… I dare say the average joe would know much about it… So, I refer to MDavis question… any special knowledge… How do you get around this comment?

            It really seems a stretch to me… Unless we use the excuse fenn only tells the truth 85% … I don’t by that either.

          • @zap – you seem to dismiss that the poem is the coded message and there is no need to use other things to find the message you seek.

            Why not just accept the poem as the coded message that doesn’t need to be “solved”, but rather just read in progression while you are “in the wood” and with BOTG?

            FF told us not to mess with it….why won’t you accept it in that manner?

            Do you think he is actually telling you the opposite? Why? To confuse would be seekers is the only thing I can think of.

            IMO – he said those words more for purpose than deceit.

            May I ask you if you have ever made a trip out to seek?

            Good luck!

          • Seeker: stego doesn’t have to be hard, especially when you are ahead of the game and suspect it. A smart person should be suspicious of the awkwardness of the poem. Aren’t you? IMO it’s the unavoidable residue of steganography.

            You worry yourself that the average Joe has no knowledge of such things, but you overestimate how complex it is. I think you’ll be a bit non-plused how easy it actually is, and will end up wondering how you missed it. That’s not a slam against you or anyone else; I’m saying it’s a pattern recognition thing, and it’s something that comes out of left field.

          • I just saw your reply now zap. Stego is just closer to being a cipher imo. Far from being a ‘straightforward’ definition.

            Example: ‘As I have gone alone in there’, Is it not more likely that ‘Hermit Peak’ is closer to defining that line in a straightforward kind of way than let’s say ‘one one three’ ??? (113) is there for sure if you get creative, but is it what the author intended?

          • Zoso: “@zap – you seem to dismiss that the poem is the coded message and there is no need to use other things to find the message you seek.”

            What in the world are you trying to say? My opinions about what the poem is have been stated a zillion times. I have been very clear.

            “Why not just accept the poem as the coded message that doesn’t need to be “solved”, but rather just read in progression while you are “in the wood” and with BOTG?”

            AFAIC, BOTG are not required to solve the poem. BOTG are required to retrieve the chest, and BOTG are an utter waste of time if you HAVEN’T solved the poem.

            “FF told us not to mess with it….why won’t you accept it in that manner?”

            You’re accusing ME of messing with the poem??? Where the H-E-double hockey sticks have you been? I’m the poster child for saying leave the poem the F alone! You change it, you’re doomed.

            “May I ask you if you have ever made a trip out to seek?”

            Apparently you’ve missed all my messages on this subject, but yes. The first trip (and frankly everyone’s first trip) is a pipe dream. My second was much better, and I will not need a fourth.

          • @ Zaphod73941

            “Zoso: “@zap – you seem to dismiss that the poem is the coded message and there is no need to use other things to find the message you seek.”
            What in the world are you trying to say? My opinions about what the poem is have been stated a zillion times. I have been very clear.
            – AllI am trying to say is the poem is already coded – coded with a map – a map that doesn’t need ciphers, stenography notes, etc….you seem to be thinking that there is, because you think stenography is encoded within it.
            – I probably haven’t read all your opinions, so if I have misunderstood this post, my apologies. But to be honest with you, I do read many of the posts whether they have substance or not.

            “Why not just accept the poem as the coded message that doesn’t need to be “solved”, but rather just read in progression while you are “in the wood” and with BOTG?”
            AFAIC, BOTG are not required to solve the poem. BOTG are required to retrieve the chest, and BOTG are an utter waste of time if you HAVEN’T solved the poem”
            – “AFAIC” – I’m not familiar with this acronym. You will have to explain it.
            – One cannot solve the puzzle without BOTG. One cannot retrieve the chest without BOTG. FYI – do you honestly think you can find a 10×10 chest that is hidden without actually doing a physical search of the area you think the chest rests? You really are not thinking this all the way through, but I won’t persuade you to do something else – you seem pretty set.

            ““May I ask you if you have ever made a trip out to seek?”
            Apparently you’ve missed all my messages on this subject, but yes. The first trip (and frankly everyone’s first trip) is a pipe dream. My second was much better, and I will not need a fourth.”
            – So you have. Good.
            – FYI – I’ve been out once two years ago – and will go again this year. I won’t need a third. *smiles*

            I’ll leave a note at the location so latter seekers will know it has been found, okay?

            ;o)

          • Lugnutz: the front-end of solving “but too far to walk” is indeed stego since the hidden clue of “BTFTW” is right there in plain sight, but no one would ever be suspicious of it. The only reason anyone would is because I pointed out the association with For Whom the Bell Tolls. I felt safe in doing so months ago because the geographic connection cannot be made by anyone who hasn’t solved the first two clues. IMHO of course.

          • Zap, As I said, it doesn’t matter how simple or hard the hidden message is or solving of it is… So the difficulty or easy understand doesn’t reflect to what it is.

            You like to say it’s not a code by the “technical”, “Harvard” definitions of codes and cipher… Yet, it’s a hidden message within a message… makes it a code message.
            I wouldn’t care if it was on a shopping list, or a cake recipe… there is a coded pattern to what is actually being used. Maybe a better way of saying it is a none natural or intended message to the context.

            If the poem is to be straightforwards, no subterfuge / deceiving involve, How does and hidden message within, not be deceiving when we’re told it’s straightforwards.

            You jump to this method with both arms open… but literally dismiss meaning and usages of how words can be used {even when fenn stated he looked up meanings of words and definition} to tell you something without the mumbo jumbo and deliberate hiding.

            Examples; End as in a boundary or border { and not so much a dotted line on a map but lets play with it and say boundary of a geographical place}, or drawing as in drainage, nigh as in left or possibly west. Word usages that can direct someone looking a maps or GE.

            To be honest, I wish it was your method… there have been many decoders [ some professionals and others amateurs ] who have worked on the poem with these method.

            And when fenn stated Andrew got most of it right, but fenn couldn’t use Andrew’s solve to find the chest, did make me ponder the thought…Yet when you add up many of the after the fact comment [ You know them as well as I }.. the only claim you really have is, It’s not a true code by definition.

            You asked me If i would be disappointed if names were actually clues… how would you feel if you present fenn with ‘In your mind is steganogrpghy [ however you spell it ] consider a code or cipher?
            And his answer came back with, it is.

            No harm is asking right? I mean, he already stated No Codes or Ciphers will assist…
            There was question ask to fenn about subtle “message” in the poem for the readers… I think you may want to read it… just saying.

          • Seeker – short of actually revealing my solution, there is no way for me to convince you that my methodology is sound and that IMO Forrest did exactly the things I’ve been describing. You don’t believe Forrest used stego; I do. We can agree to disagree since there is no middle ground, though I don’t know why anyone would be surprised if Forrest used such a method to conceal clues. It would hardly be radical. Read up on the very first armchair treasure hunt — the blueprint for all those that have followed. Its solution was stego-based.

            For my amusement, I used stego in at least two of my posts in the last year that gave Forrest’s keyword (IMO, of course). As far as I know, no one picked up on them except HMA. Too bad: I thought they were rather clever.

            “Examples; End as in a boundary or border { and not so much a dotted line on a map but lets play with it and say boundary of a geographical place}, or drawing as in drainage, nigh as in left or possibly west. Word usages that can direct someone looking a maps or GE.”

            Seeker: this is actually one of the few things you’ve written that contains something that is precisely correct about one of the clues.

            “And when fenn stated Andrew got most of it right, but fenn couldn’t use Andrew’s solve to find the chest, did make me ponder the thought…”

            I don’t remember the details of Andrew’s solution other than that it was completely wrong. I don’t even remember what state he thought it was in.

          • Dang that was a long climb… I keep hearing loco laugh while saying… you idiots start another balloon.
            Zap,
            Andrew use the L&C method which imo is also a stego, but maybe not.

            I’m not barking at your attempt.. I have thought of some things, theories and method I even thought hit the fifth dimension… That is why I like the after the fact comments and post them as well… it’s a check and balance tool imo… so I don’t have the chest in 6′ of moving water, or hanging in a tree in a park, or in a mine on private property, or a tourist destination with thousands of people standing in the same location… well you get the point.

            I doubt it very much, but IF you pull this off… I’ll buy dinner in any city, town or backwater grill USA you want.
            IF you don’t, I want to read the entire solve, posted here… what do ya say?

    • Hi Cynthia — I strongly disagree with your interpretation that Forrest’s answer rules out the possibility that the clues are the names of places. That is not what toponymy is about; toponymy is about the etymology and historical origins of the names of places. It is about the who, when, how and why of a place name, not the what. In my opinion, nearly all of Forrest’s clues are toponyms, which is to say that most of the poem’s clues are nominative, not descriptive.

      • If one researches “cartography” and goes through the process step by step…from past to present, the answers to this debacle become clearer. Do not confuse etymology with toponymy…quite different. Etymology researches the “words”…toponomy is the science to establish officially recognized “geographical” names. In essence…you have to have the place name first to even study it.
        Further…a “good map” is defined as deciding where to place areas of interest and how to display that info…that brings into play the term “ground truth”. Basic problem involving actually “seeing” something(BOTG) vs. inferred info inaccurately placed on a map due to scale/size issues.
        So… Zap…the early chronicling of maps relied on the storytellers and the history/origins of places that then got names. Map making has come a long way since…and technology has made it necessary to study these names for accuracy purposes so as to not hurt anyone’s feelings because the names were not correctly represented on a map.
        The clues represent geographical locations…
        Caution ! You decide for yourself whether a place NAME is essential for your solve.

        • IMO – of the 11 clues within the poem….there are five of them that have a name associated to the clue.

          • Sounds real good Tim…keep up the good work and good luck to you. I hope you get to go soon.

          • Me too….but not too fond of the recent post claiming some “she” seems to have found the path….”and will get excited to see the inside”.

            Sounds like FF may have given someone a helpful hint without knowing. The use of a specific pronoun isn’t very encouraging for us guys. FF may have just caused 50% of the seekers to stop.

            This also makes me think that it may actually be found before I get another chance to go out.

            *shrugs* In the least it will end the misery!

          • That is an interesting way to talk about the clues, Tim. IMO, I agree with you that there are 5 clues associated to a specific name.

          • I’d say more, but names are not in my vocabulary until after I check my solve.

            :o)

          • …oops…of course that is just my opinion.

            Many don’t agree with me that there are 11.

            :o)

          • oops he said “I think that person will be pleased when she sees it”

            Was what he said

          • It can be subjective as to where one clue ends and the other begins, so the quantity of clues does not seem like a big deal to me in determining a solve.

            For example, do you consider “heavy loads and waters high” to be 0, 1, or 2 clues? (rhetorical question only)

        • Ken, I think we’re probably in violent agreement that the latest MW Q&A didn’t rule out anything that wasn’t already ruled out (toponymy = special knowledge). If I want to direct someone to a very specific place in the world, but don’t want to supply a latitude and a longitude, the next best way is with mutually understood labels: the names of states, cities, rivers, mountains, lakes, highways, etc. that can be found on a map or maps appropriate for the required precision. And if I need to direct someone to a generic spot that doesn’t have a name, then I can use the nearest waypoint that CAN be described using names (e.g. where a river crosses under a road), and provide a direction and distance relative to that point.

          Forrest had to come up with a way to navigate searchers to a very precise location — quite likely a location that has no name. How is he going to do it? A purely descriptive approach without names cannot provide the necessary precision: you can only get so close before you’re dependent on smaller natural objects that don’t have permanence or don’t remain stationary: trees, rocks, etc.

          Suffice to say, Forrest ~did~ come up with a clever method, and if I’m right it’s a system that will work just fine for millennia because the components of his system have been essentially unchanged for thousands of years.

          • No violence on my part Zap. It is simple for me to take the stand I do in this case because my solve does not involve place names at all. Sure…there are some obviously…but not necessary for my solve to work. No trees or rocks involved.

          • Ken, “violent agreement” is just a humorous phrase. It doesn’t have anything to do with violence.

          • yes Zap…I was just adding to the humor. Class is back in session now…Harvey Goodwin.

    • I was not familiar with the word myself… but it seems to be more about the study of why something was named or the history behind the naming of a geographical feature… beaver mountain, or devil’s tower, Sid and Charlie for example.

      I agree Cynthia, the names of places have never gave me thought about a clue reference. They change too many time over the years. [ grant ya, long periods of time, and different populous involvement. ] This imo, is what might have been meant [ in part ] by “looking down the road…”
      I like this question very much… nice job Chris.

      OK Goofy, I would very much like to hear your thoughts on this… we’ve had the discussion about Labels on map… and why I asked what Details is fenn referring to. As example; GE… ‘detailed’ aerial view of the of the land itself.

      • Well scratch another ology, onomy, etry, off the board. I would have thought this field of study was a subset or part of a comprehensive understanding of geography. I’m kinda relieved, but there goes a bunch of my favorite place name solution sets. I must say I am not entirely surprised by this either. I have not quite been able to reconcile the line between a place name today and the history of how the place was named, not to mention the possibility of a new name for any place as soon as tomorrow. I think this may be bad news for all of the non botg searchers out there. By contrast, today may be a very encouraging day for folks like Dal who can put many attempts at a ground solve together. On the other hand Seeker a meta solve is still a viable, possibly diminished, but still viable option. Back to our earlier discussion, it wouldn’t be the same place name today as back in time, but if we aren’t solving for place names it doesn’t matter new name or old. The journey depicted throughout the poem could still be describing a process other than the hiding of indulgence, possibly by someone other than Forrest.
        Here the quote for those who missed it.

        Dear Forrest, What’s more important in solving the search, a greater knowledge (“knowlege”) of Toponymy or Geography? ~Chris

        I don’t know how Toponymy can help you at all Chris (I had to look that word up). But if you knew the geographic location of each clue it would be a map to the treasure. f

        So we aren’t searching for place names hidden in the poem either modern or historic, but we are obviously searching for places, geographic locations described by the clues. To try to bring this back to the thread topic. Are we trying to find nine clues to three places, or more likely, nine distinct locations described in poetic terms?

      • Well Seeker, I know you are in complete disagreement with my ideas so I’m a little surprised you asked. Maybe you just want someone to beat up on. 🙂 I won’t list all the quotes and sources, you know them anyway.

        As you know I believe the poem can only be solved on location. I’ve basically thought that, or at least wanted to think that from the beginning. It’s what the chase is about, getting out there. When he said to look at the big picture I don’t think he was talking about a map. I think he was talking about how to solve the poem overall. Folks are going off on all kinds of crazy tangents.

        So how can the solution be so difficult? I surmised it’s either some really insane or bizarre code or way of looking at the poem. Maps in the pictures turned upside down etc. Or you have to be on location to solve it. Fenn is well aware of folks like me; park rangers, hunting & fishing guides, nature lovers in general that just enjoy being out and exploring, that have intimate knowledge of the Rockies. So how does he keep someone like me from just going straight to it? That would be imagination.

        I’ve tried to take all of his statements about the chase and make them true. He is telling us how to solve the poem, not where. I disagree with some that think Fenn gave out more information in the beginning. His recent comments are much more telling about how to solve the poem.

        Some searchers have been doing this for a long time; finding places on maps and google earth that look like things. Horse heads, omegas, etc. But he said google earth doesn’t go down far enough to see the chest. I don’t think it goes down far enough to see most of the clues. You can find the first two clues on a map, which is why there have been so many that have done so, and why a map is important, but the little girl from India (or anyone else at home) can only go that far. The searchers that were on location went right past the other clues.

        His most recent comment seems to be saying not to use place names. So for example Madison Junction is not WWWH. But where a hot springs empties into river could be WWWH. The hot springs has a name, and so does the river, but the place they meet does not. Or where a river changes temperature enough for trout to live. It doesn’t have a name but is a precise place.

        I did have trouble reconciling his going with confidence, knowing beforehand, comments. To me this means the remainder of the clues (after the first two) are in close proximity to each other, or at least you can see all of them from a vantage point the first two clues lead you to. Once you figure out the remaining clues (with imagination??) from the vantage point, you can proceed with confidence.

        I’ve often sat on a canyon rim or by a river wondering what Seeker, or Jamie, and most certainly Fenn, would see from here. So we have to be at the right place, maybe at the right time, to imagine with our intimate knowledge of geography, what the remaining clues mean.

        Dang, this is almost as long as your comments. There you go, that’s what I think. Let me have it but try to keep it short, my attention span is not what it used to be.

        • I like the example Goofy, but I’m still stuck going down a labeled canyon.

        • Goofy why would you think I’d wanna beat up on ya?
          I admit we don’t see eye to eye, but I listen to what you and other say… if not I wouldn’t be here.
          You mention fenn’s awareness to folks like you… That is one of the reasons I think this is more a mental challenge than a physical. And to repeat the obvious, of course at some point you have to go into the field.

          You example of how certain types of water merge over the names of them as clue is great. If it can stay like that throughout I agree. But the discussion we had a few time was about labels a map or even GE.
          Has this comment changed anything for you? Better yet, does it change your thoughts about what “details” might refer to concerning any mapping system?

          That was the main topic of the discussions…

          • Seeker, I don’t remember our discussion about labels. You’ll have to refresh my memory. I do have very detailed maps and GIS layers (I use them for work).

            As you know we’ve had some very smart and imaginative people trying to solve the poem. As you say, if the poem is stomping point to point why hasn’t someone like me found it. Conversely I could ask the same of you. What kind of rocket scientist, computer genius does it take to solve the poem. What are all these brilliant people missing; yet it has to be straight forward, no ciphers, with no subterfuge or special knowledge required. And many people have solved the first two clues and been very close to the treasure.

            I agree with you, it is a mental problem vs just stomping from one place to the next on a map. I just think you have to be on location to figure it out. It’s the only way I can see that makes all of his statements true. You are a pro, maybe the best, at pointing out to folks how their solution or method of solving the poem goes against what Fenn has stated. Some get upset with you for doing that, but I think it’s very good to have someone point that out. I do get a kick at the mental gymnastics some of them perform trying to twist what he has said like a pretzel to fit their way of doing things.

            So how am I looking at it wrong?

        • Hi @Goofy – sounds like you are enjoying the hunt. Good. Glad to hear you are.

          I want to disagree with your thinking, because although I do agree one must be in the region to better understand the path that needs to be taken, the path can be found using GE.

          The key is the starting point, and for me, I stumbled upon something that causes me to take the gut feeling and use it.

          I did. And low and behold, it led me thru the clues.

          How did I stumble upon this place? Lucky I guess.

          Is it the right spot? I’ll know this summer.

          So you are incorrect on the use of a good map…Google Earth…..is a good map….but others are still required.

          Cheers and good thinking…

    • What I think he meant was the names of the places, if the clue is a place, would not help you. For instance say the canyon down was “Chama Canyon”. That name in itself wouldn’t help you, but knowing the geography of it would, if that makes sense.

    • Cynthia,
      I think you are one of the most clever searchers on this site. How much snow is accumulated in your areas right now?

    • Cynthia – I would be careful on how you look at that statement from f and what Toponymy actual is. It is ‘the study’ of something (like f studying archeology), in this case ‘place-names’. A better understanding of what Toponymy is can be read about here:
      https://www.britannica.com/science/toponymy.

      I have a feeling more than a few people will now run off in a direction they should not be running… and some will probably never recover from it.

    • Has anyone picked up on the relevancy of the page in the book that is all capitalized?
      Or why no chapter numbers?
      Then there Numbers that are repeated, like 50 anyone notice?
      The story Tea with Olga. Did anyone research see if there was anything to black, red and green?
      waiting for the snow to melt.

  52. Here is my take for what it’s worth:

    Geographical location can be a single spot on a map or it can be a path, like a road. Any cliche treasure map I have ever seen is a series places and dotted lines. If the poem is formatted so the clues are very consecutive 1) start here 2) go down this canyon several miles 3) find location X 4) follow path…

    That would create a fantastic looking treasure map!

  53. Hey now Ladies and Gentlemen ,

    Let not disrespect Mr. Fenn . Let’s not just please ourselves.

    SO please allow me to change the subject to a degree.

    Please pardon my lack inability to articulate my thoughts .
    I am not good at it . But I will try . FOLKS THINK DIFFERENT.
    It is not our right nor natural nature to act in this way . I have said this before on this blog when my theories were tested.
    So instead of letting those comments into my “square” .
    I used them to file my passion for the Chase. I would suggest you all do the same. Life is short. And how will you ever show your Independent thoughts if no one lets you .

    SO all who know the clues as stated above please explain
    if you will the first clue. If you think it is wwh , then why . No I do not and will never think the first clue is WWWH. I have my reasons and I wont tell.
    AS I HAVE GONE ALONE IN THERRE
    AND WITH MY TREASURES BOLD ,
    I CAN KEEP MY SECRET WHERE ,
    AND HINT OF RICHES NEW AND OLD.
    The questions I list now are not because I have them . The questions I set now are because you have them . I can answer this stanza. Can you ?

    1. Gone alone in there , well where is that ?
    2. And with my treasures bold , what treasures ? and how are they bold? What dose bold even mean ? And what did he mean as I have .
    3. I can keep my secret where , well where is that and what secret?
    4. ANd hint of riches new and old
    well what riches ? Is that the chest? New and old ? What’s that even mean ? What Riches that are bold kept in a secret new and old ?

    The <y -point is only we all have a lot of the same questions. Now if there is any hint there , it is just that . Every road we take can lead to the same place if you lay your foot to path that Forrest has been on ; then you are at least on the path . And that would mean all of you "are" and have the chance to find it . Make sense?
    I have around 100 solves of this poem . Been on around 37 trips to find the chest. Each time I learned something about Forrest .
    How ? Well because I went to almost every place he did in YellowStone just to understand him better . I followed him . Well in to a understanding " gone alone in there " dose not mean he was alone. =) =) That was a given form me to you , I would encourage you to find the meaning of that . I can share one other thing.
    " It's a lot easier then those who are combing the book for cryptic clues or staring at top o's " I dint say it Forrest Fenn did.
    I think F is a simple man . He is a gentleman to the highest of honors . He was a military guy who lived a life of passion . Thats what I share in this with him , the passion for history and all it's stories.

    Hope you liked the post . We are all here for the pleasures of others, thank you Mr. Shakespeare ." SO No I don't think he's going head to head , but side by side . Thank you Mr. Fenn for speaking doing the things of which you speak.

    Books of Interest. Catcher , on that Time Magazine . The Bell Tolls and then Gatsby .
    I will leave you with a couple Fenn quotes
    on page 11 " Well , as fate would make it happen , the very next morning all the news was about this guy J.D. Salinger who had just died."
    pg 12 last paragraph is a miss quote. It's David Copper-field not Copper-field.
    Pg 13 " The more I thought about it the more I realized the book was about me, and I couldn't believe it . "
    " How would anyone imagine a coincidence like that could happen ?"

    I like questions , I can Imagine it , Pretty vividly .
    page 14 ; " So I started to figure things out "
    " Maybe he just had it in mind that I'd finish the book . Or at-least
    add on to it. "
    " So I reached into the trash for catcher and put it on my desk so everyone could read it ( hear me all ) I think my friend JD knows . And in a serious determined way , I started to think about what to say . "

    " First read my book normal , then read the poem over and over . Then go back and read the book slow matching the hints in the book to the clues in the poem "

    " I could go right back there right now if I wanted to "

    So , If New York is on the map as some one had stated in this strain – then he would be correct in his assumption . Except it is not in the Rocky's , or is it? I would say in 100% confidence
    yes it is … Yes it is … Thank you Mr. Fenn you live up to your name in every way .
    Oh f said in a word yes, never said it was one word.
    Take care Bless all of you … Never stop searching.

  54. The chest has nothing to do with a human structure….

    Well , A Human Structure is not a building.
    Not in the vicinity of a neighbor hood .
    Somewhere in the rockies .
    The places existed the clues didn’t .

    IMO this is misleading . In his head maybe he was out in the Rocky’s
    hiding a chest at 79 or 80 years of age.. Oh , I don’t mean he didn’t hide it …
    I believe the chest is there . Somewhere in the Rocky’s north of Santa Fe.
    But , In my imagination I cant see a guy who is 80 , going on a journey to hid a chest before he goes back again to meet fate . After he had been there al-ready and it’s so privet that every one in his words goes there not caring yes or no ; That he had ever been there. Nor can I see him climbing a mountain in my mind at age 79 or 80. It is not smart to go in to high altitudes at that age .
    You get all weirded out in high elevations . I drive up to a secret place where I was married and I do not drive the whole way with out stopping . I stop in Lyons Colorado first , then up to Estes Park. Then on into the National Forrest where I was Married on SunDance Mountain . Tough drive ! Old Fall River Road is no place for the meek fr sure. Lyons is the double Gate Way into the Rocky’s . It’s elevation is where humidity yields. Or around that elevation.
    That data I stumbled on . Only cause its right down the block form my home .
    – So , I have seen him move and to no offense Mr. F I love you but you don’t get around so good . I am sure you could go anywhere in a vechile though …ALmost.
    But to no offense of his memory , no way do I see him climbing any mountains at that age . But , I do see him by his fire past mid-night with only him self to know. Writing about a Memory of his past . And when He hid a secret chest of gold , some where in the Rocky’s North of Santa Fe.

    Tell me what you think and thank you for reading my ecliptic
    way of trying to express my self .
    Mr.D

    • Mr.D, I think that Forrest drove a Jeep to a place that is very
      close to where the TC lies in wait for us. This way, he, as
      an old man, would not have to carry the goodies very far.

      I think that a perfect solve is the only one that will help
      anyone find the TC. A “good” solve isn’t good enough.

      The hike to the TC is about 2 miles one-way.

      I believe that the word “halt” is one that we should all know
      by now. Many folks are too proud to use a dictionary.

      I looked up a lot of words that I thought I was familiar with.
      I wasn’t embarrassed to do this, because nobody was
      watching me. It helped me in my solving efforts.

  55. cynthia wrote: “Finally, FF confirmed on Jenny’s site this morning the clues are not NAMES of places…I think that’s what he meant:”
    ——————————————————————————————————
    I disagree with that interpretation. Toponymy specifies the history and origin of place names, not the use of those place names on a map. What Forrest is saying is that there is no need to study the history or origin of place names. Which is consistent with his comment that no special knowledge is needed. Toponymy, with its emphasis on derivation, would be just another form of … specialized knowledge.

    Besides, how in the world can a series of words and phrases in a poem lead the searcher to a specific location without reference to some place name? That what a land map is … a series of place names proximal to each other and connected by routes.

    One thing seems certain to me. Given the different interpretations of FF’s comments, now and in the past, I can almost guarantee that if and when the clues are ever made public, some searchers are going to be very disappointed. Which I suppose is the natural outcome of vagueness and ambiguity. The issue of “toponymy” is just the most recent example.

    Ken (in Texas)

    • Awesome. I have considered writing a book as well about the chase. A decent market with tens of thousands of searches. Stay positive my friend.

      • thanks James. The difficult part is not in the writing,but in the strange feeling you have of parting with your ideas:)
        Jeshurun Clouds

  56. Earlier today, Tighterfocus wrote “The hike to the TC is about 2 miles one-way”. I am not questioning that distance, I just haven’t found anything online from FF regarding two miles. FF has made a couple of comments regarding this and I thought I would share my interpretation.
    ————————————————————————————————–
    FF stated, “I made two trips from my car to the hiding place and it was done in one afternoon”. I’m guessing that the first trip from his car was without the chest to scout a location to hide the chest and determine if he was alone. I am speculating that this was two trips to his car while parked that afternoon and not two trips driving his car.

    FF was also asked a distance question relating to his car and the TC, he stated, “But I will say that I walked less than a few miles if that will help”. If you take into consideration that FF stated he walked less than three miles that day and made two trips from his car, that possibly indicates that he walked approximately less than .75 of a mile from his car to the hiding place and not 2 miles as stated earlier in this thread. Two miles would be a significantly longer walk if my speculation holds any merit.

    Lastly, FF mentioned that seekers have been within 200 feet of the chest. Reading into that comment, I’m guessing that FF is saying that the chest may be 200 feet off a thoroughfare.

    • MJ, I believe I remember reading that F said that on the first trip he carried the box and on the second he carried the contents and the walk was a “few” miles.

    • MJ, I believe that FF parked a lot closer (in a Jeep) to the hidey spot than he expects any searcher to. He said he
      used a Jeep (quel surprise!).

      In his poem line “And with my treasures bold”, I don’t think he’s referring to the treasures as being bold; I think HE
      was bold when he went there.

      I don’t want to give away too much here, but I have good reason influencing my thinking.

      Take all this with a grain of salt (along with anything else
      you see on the forums). If you’ve read any of my earlier posts, you may have noticed that except for very minor details (i.e., estimating the size of the final, specific search area), I’ve been quite consistent, and haven’t changed my story.

      I’ve been on two BOTG hikes (up the same creek — a real one, by the way) so far, the first of which was aborted due to a sudden snowfall before I reached my “final, specific search area”. On my second search hike, I saw something that wasn’t visible using google earth. I saw strong confirmation that this was the right place to search.

      The poem doesn’t “pinpoint” where the TC is; it’ll take
      some time to do a thorough search of the correct area — which I didn’t finish doing on that second trip. I’ve been looking for any weakness(es) in my solve for about a year now, and can’t find any. I spend several hours each day on
      these forums, looking for any evidence that would tend
      to weaken my solve. So far, nada.

      My third search trip (this summer) is likely to be my last attempt at finding the TC.

      FF has told us that the TC is not “in close proximaty” to
      a human trail. The TC may be within 200 feet of an
      animal trail, though. Would you consider that a valid
      thoroughfare?

      Good luck to you. Please be careful in the Rockies. There
      are bears and mountain lions living there.

  57. Cynthia wrote: “Finally, FF confirmed on Jenny’s site this morning the clues are not NAMES of places…I think that’s what he meant:”
    ——————————————————————————————————
    Cynthia … what exactly is confirmed if you are not sure what Forrest meant???

    *sigh*

    Yet another ambiguity is introduced into the chase, without any clarification whatsoever.

    Nothing new from poster Cynthia since her bombshell upthread … nor from Forrest … just the usual arguing back and forth among hapless posters not privy to what Forrest (and Cynthia) actually meant.

    It might not be so bad if Forrest’s comments had been introduced into TTOTC or right after the poem was published. Instead, it’s revealed years later, after searchers have already spent tons of money and a huge amount of time on the project.

    How many additional ambiguities and points of confusion are we going to be introduced to in the future?

    Explain to me why any searcher should spend any more time on the poem or any additional money looking for a chest, if the real clues are not in the poem at all, but rather in occasional tidbits of conversation that Forrest chooses to reveal years, even decades, later.

    Many people take the chase seriously. Without clarification from Forrest on the topic of “toponymy”, or someone claiming to speak on his behalf, the rest of us are stuck in a theoretical purgatory, not knowing what Forrest means.

    Ken (in Texas)

    • My post immediately above was several hours delayed in posting. Given the way that this blog chooses to post “recent” comments, I doubt if anyone has even read my above comment.

      • Ken (in Texas),

        You’re catching on. 99% who read your post won’t even consider that possibility, much less agree or believe it. I came to the same conclusion a while back. Not to mean I don’t keep up with everything and continue to try to figure it out……I just don’t take anything about it serious any more!

        loco (in Texas) 🙂

    • Hello Ken. Just read your earlier post. I’m not sure if I read it correctly, so please forgive me for my comment if I’m incorrect. Searchers share their ideas, which varies in many degrees. We have the option to accept what their ideas are, or leave them. Perhaps to lesson any confusion, go to the beginning of what the basic instructions of what was given and take it from there. Avoid the blogs, and concentrate your ideas to where the treasure chest may be. I’m sure there may be ways to see what updates are to whether or not it has been found. Again, if I misread your comment, my sincere apologies. This is an opinion, offered as a thought.

  58. Hi Seeker: getting too tedious to post under the original balloon so backed out 5 levels. Ah, yes, it’s all coming back to me. Briggs Jefferson Cipher approach. Ugh, it was full of holes. Suffice to say Andrew is no cryptanalyst, and I’m surprised Forrest gave him so much traction.

    As for your offer, it is generous but I actually have a different plan in mind. If I find Indulgence, the Chase won’t end. There will be a not-insubstantial reward for whomever is second, but with a time limit. As such, I wouldn’t immediately reveal the solution. In fact, I would probably completely withdraw from the blogs to let the scenario play out without my interference. What do you think?

    • Zap,

      I am so glad you said this. I thought to myself plenty about what I would do if I found the chest, and the one thing that kept coming back to me is the magic of the search. I would want the search to continue. I’d give Forrest his bracelet back (and probably take some loot, lets be honest) but I would leave a note in the chest for the next person who finds it, to know that they too have found the end of Forrest’s rainbow. Kudos to you sir, I love it.

    • And if you don’t retrieve the chest… what then..
      I’m not sure what avenue I would take fully. I know I would publish the autobiography in-full. other than that… Buy a new pickup , and something for the wife … she still purs like a kitty when I get her going, a few dings and dents, body a bit out of shape, and has never let me down.
      But I’d really! would like a new truck to replace the old piece of crap clunker I’m driving now.

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