Where Warm Waters Halt…Part Seven


This page is now closed to new comments. To add to the discussion please go to the latest WWWH page.

This is for a discussion about Where Warm Waters Halt. We’ve all got ideas that didn’t work out or we are willing to share…I think we can give folks just starting out some ideas for the kinds of places that might just be the place Where Warm Waters Halt…or not!

Let the discussion begin…


570 thoughts on “Where Warm Waters Halt…Part Seven

  1. I got mine, hasn’t change in 4 years, 3 trips, 4 hikes.
    David here

    Mr fenn, I’m coming I’m coming,
    Way too far to walk. HA !!!

  2. My Warm Waters Halt is Madison Junction. Don’t know if it is right. Snow on the ground is still persisting in the mountains here around the West Yellowstone area, especially in the shaded areas. Sunday I’m going to go poke around for my first boots on the ground of the season. Expect I will find much snow in the wood. Seen a few moose while driving around and somebody ran into a bison last weekend. Beware of wildlife on the road in your Chase.

    • My Goodness, the DMV is sure getting very lax about what they give Driver’s Licenses to these days.. 🙂 Thanks for the Snow Report, Road Hawk…..

    • It is worth noting that is illegal to remove treasure of any sort from Yellowstone

      • Hey. No diff than if u dropped ur wallet on a hike. The T is Fenn’s .untill found. Not something natural and deff not owned by Uncle Sugar

      • It is also Illegal for Fenn to put the treasure in any national park including Yellowstone.

        • cache
          1.a collection of items of the same type stored in a hidden or inaccessible place.
          noun: cache memory;
          1.store away in hiding or for future use.

          Chest; a strong box used for storage

          Treasure; possession, important to the owner.

          Trove; no ownership. of value

          Time-capsule; a container {*chest} storing a selection of objects{*treasure} chosen as being typical of the present time{*capsule}, buried for discovery in the future.{*trove}

          • The poem in my opinion takes you a considerable distance from where you begin at Warm Waters Halt. To a creek, then a blaze that you can walk to in one afternoon and if you can’t carry 42 pounds out in on go you still have time to do it…bring a flashlight.

      • LN, would you mind sharing your source for this quote: “is illegal to remove treasure of any sort from Yellowstone”?

        Everything I have read says it is that you cannot take out things that naturally occur in the park.


    • Mine is glenwood springs warm waters is the second clue the 1st is begin where it ends. This leads to the home of brown. New castle which was named after newcastle upon tyne . This is the home of brown ale . So you understand the importance of brown ale to newcatles history its like describing new york as the big apple or bourbon coming from kentcky . ( brown ale is newcastle). Put in , the colorado follows the route BELOW new castle. Ff is a shrewd fox . Im stuck from there and think local knowledge is needed but i have come across too many coincidences from there. Meek /meeker. Dry creek. Battlement mesa.( meeker). Coal creek . Dams burning mountain.( blaze?). Creek indians.(heavy loads waters high).

  3. Just got home from another adventure, I wouldn’t mind if the tc was never found and I spent the the rest of my life just looking for it. The treasures I get from looking are far more valuable than what’s in the box. Ty for the incentive F. My son has cerebral palsy and a whole gambit of other disabilities, he climbed 2600ft in 6hrs. He’s got a whole new outlook on life. Momma stayed home this time and worried about the cost, and when we got home she realized it was worth it at any cost. Thanks again F. As far as wwwh you’ll get no help from me, if you find the tc just keep your mouth shut please but do leave a trace and let us all keep looking.

  4. Who else subscribes to the “edge of civilization” starting point?


    Thanks Dal for the sub.

    • With the rate of development and population growth projected for the mountain west over the next 25 years, Tim, I think it’s a too-rapidly changing line in the sand.

      Even without that factor, I think it’s also simply too many possible starting points to be useful. Like saying “Begin it at the county line.”

      You could really only use it by backing into it from points solved further down the line.


      • …Good points J A.

        But…..it is still a plausible discussion…..because FF did say it would be “difficult, not impossible”….and if you really think about what the “EoC” really is…..it still plays very well with the “difficulty” portion of this quest.

        Just my opinion.

        Thanks for responding.

        • You bet, man. I do agree that it’s a perfectly reasonable answer to the question “where do warm waters halt.” It’s just that I can’t seem to figure out how to make it help ME throw a boot at the ground.

          In the spirit of sharing, the Wild Geese (my brother and I) originally liked the Great Divide Basin in Wyo, and we made many studies and more than a few feet-and/or-wheels-on-the-ground recons there.

          I still like it, but over the past winter my thoughts have shifted from thinking of the poem as describing a big area and then narrowing or spiraling down progressively, step by step.

          Now I’m thinking that more of the poem describes a relatively small piece of ground, and am considering some much smaller features as the WWWH. Looking more for a point than a circle. Or at least a smaller circle.


          • I mentioned this in another blog, and it may help you…..

            FF said: “one time I walked 96 miles”.

            Okay….maybe the number isn’t accurately, but forget about that for a moment and just bear with me. Maybe the whole phrase is inaccurate and just a way to lead us seekers on a wrong path. He does like to redirect.

            For someone to walk 96 miles, either they did it in two ways…..a one-way walk for the complete 96 miles….or more logically…..48 miles one way, and then another 48 miles on the return trip.

            Okay. Let’s say he actually did do this trip. That is a lot of miles. He also seems to mention that he did it from the West Yellowstone Park region. Was it? I really don’t think he ever mentions his starting point here either……so we have to make a guess on what he was referring to on many levels.

            Just for the discussion at hand. If one were to place a radius circle around WYP – and only extend it to be only a “50 mile” radius…..you now have a starting point, and a smaller region that can be investigated.

            I really think FF was talking about a round trip effort. If so, then we can clearly apply this logic to the poem and hopefully come up with a starting point within those 50 miles radius we decide to use. Is this a hint? Could very well be.

            But just because he said this, it doesn’t make it true in all accounts, so we as the seekers, need to come to a decision on how much of what he said is true?, how much is false?, is the starting city inaccurate?, did he mean while he was in Yellowstone Park one day?, was he out in the wilderness somewhere else?, etc….etc….etc….many, many variables come into play again.

            You see the dilemma we all face…..how much of Fennology is purely conjecture and how much is truth.

            He is a clever one…..I have to give him that much.

            Hope that helps clear up some thinking.

            Good luck to you.

          • @Tim (zosorocks1)

            You said, “For someone to walk 96 miles, either they did it in two ways…”

            There’s a third way: he walked 96 miles one-way, then got a ride home. The walk he’s discussing is from West Yellowstone to Bozeman down Highway 191. I don’t think he mentioned how he got back. I did find a mention in Dal’s post, “Forrest Gets Even More Email” where he says:

            “One time a friend and I walked from West Yellowstone to Bozeman, 91 miles. It was maybe the best trip I ever made. “

          • Ya Naught Forya,
            From West Yellowstone, cross the Madison, Cougar, Duck, (don’t forget Tepee) follow Grayling to you reach the pinacle & take the Gallatin the rest of the way.

            Great walk or drive in my book.

          • My “one-way”….was just that too, so it really isn’t a third way…I just didn’t think it was needed to say he drove back….flew back….took a bus back….etc….I thought it was an implied thought.

            My point to the other poster was more related to helping him decide upon a region to look in, if using what FF had said.

            One could extrapolate a search from that information.

            That was all my post was about.

            Thanks for reading it and commenting.

          • An after-thought….

            One can now make that 50 mile radius….a 91-mile radius, if you think logically. A bigger area, but still plausible for a search area to be used.


        • Hello, Broondog47 –
          Please, provide a link to your blog so that we may check it out.

    • Tim,
      Normally I can recall where I heard something from, but all I can recall is remembering I heard this, so take it with a grain of salt. {having a brain fog today}

      A conversation about YS is not specific enough to be wwwh because Yellowstone is a region…. If I’m recall this correctly… wouldn’t that make your “end of civilization” a very large non-specific region/ area?
      Unless you can show how the poem points to a specific place in that civilization.

        • How does that blog discard “EoC”? I’m not seeing it.

          JDA had good points, but they still don’t dismiss “EoC”.

          Shoot – he also stated that everyone who utilized that same spot, their solves all ‘fizzled out”. Sounds to me, that they were in the right area.

          Maybe you can further clarify what you are trying to say.

          Thanks for the link.

          • I think you meant JA Kraven had some good points, not JDA. I didn’t chime in on this one. JDA

          • Bob. Me thinks -End of Civilization or Every other Clue lol. Survey says?

          • “EoC” = edge of civilization.

            You know…the only one using this thinking…..*smiles*…..

            Well….as far as i can tell, but it does look like others may have ventured down that road.

            I’m just not sure.

            Thanks for reading my post.

          • JDA…you have provided many good points…..not in this leg of the forum….but in previous ones.

            That was my meaning behind my post.

            Thanks for responding.

          • “Edge of civilzation”….not “end”….there is a slight difference.


          • I liked the “End of Civilization” better.
            Makes for a good documentary name.
            LOL JDA…

          • Ya it does, huh?
            All civilizations will end at some point or another including this one.

          • Well Tim,
            I think you’re in the right area anyway if that means anything.
            We won’t know till someone gets it.

            You’re confident & that is something most are not short of, so I will throw that F statement in the trash.

            How can so many be so confident & not get it?

          • Hey Jake…..I think…for me…it took many tries to try and debunk what I’ve got. That is why I aproached this blog….smarter people than I are out here, and they would be able to drill into what I say…as others have done.

            For me the answers and questions I have rcvd, are exactly what I was hoping to get.

            Some one is bound to rip apart the poem in such a way, that during that process, they would discover new things they didn’t see, or might not have seen before.

            To me…those comments help me too, making me rip what I have apart and see if it holds up to other scrutiny.

            I’m sort of lucky that know one has even mentioned what I know. That alone helps me with building up some more confidence. To a level that allows me to keep moving forward.

            I can understand FF’s comment….I think anyone searching is wasting their time, if you don’t have any confidence in solving a solvable puzzle. That alone is confidence, and could very well be a confidence builder, if they add will to their thinking.

            I think am moving away from the topic…sorry.

          • LOL

            I was wondering if some one was gonna ask me about that.

            There can only be “one chosen” to figure out the poem. IMO – there are energies at work beyond our control, but help us through decision making. Gut feelings? Coincidences? Luck? Who knows?

            If this “energy” is helping someone Or some individual – we all….really don’t know, until we arrive at that eluding 10″x10″ piece of land.

            There is going to be only “one” winner….they will choose a path. They will be the chosen one.

            Please remember…words can have many meanings….and some meanings are unknown, missed, looked at 28th a certain perception, etc.

            Please never let yourself think otherwise, unless there is only one meaning to that word.

            You won’t win if there is.

            Cheers….funny…it didn’t take very long for someone to ask.


          • Tim,
            I can see why F said to read the blogs for entertainment with your statements.

            Chosen one, hahahha so misguided, by your own thoughts.

          • On EoC, it seems to me that would work, especially if your EoC = the name of a specific place (i.e., if the poem has the word “apocalypse” in it, and your WWWH was the town of Apocalypse, NM or something).

            There is no A, NM, of course, but what comes up when you search for it is pretty funny!

        • swwot, that sure did take me back… that song used to terrify me as a kid

          On the right side, on youtube, One Tin Soldier (from Billy Jack) came up: “…on a mountain was a treasure, buried deep beneath a stone, and the valley people swore they’d have it for their very own…” Remember that one? My first introduction to Santa Fe and the plight of the Native Americans.

      • I hear where you are coming from Seeker. It is a very difficult path to take, because of so many variables. Trust me….I know. IMO – FF did this on purpose….in order to make it so difficult and to make this quest last thousands of years. If you don’t have teh correct starting point, you won’t succeed.

        You wrote:
        (a) “wouldn’t that make your “end of civilization” a very large non-specific region/ area?
        (b) Unless you can show how the poem points to a specific place in that civilization.”

        (a) “wouldn’t that make your “end of civilization” a very large non-specific region/ area?
        – No it doesn’t. Because I used the TTOTC to narrow the search. FF did say that there are “hints” in the book….I believe they give credence to the starting region. So in fact, I have narrowed my search area to a specific region. To be honest, one can do that with pretty much any of the places that people have determine to be their “WWWH”. How am I being any different? They picked a plot of land and made it their own. I’ve done the same, EXCEPT, I took it a step further and removed a possible reference to a natural feature and went with a man-made place as my WWWH. If you think about it…..I’ve done what many are probably doing, but in direct reverse. I’ve eliminated all natural locations. I’ve reduced my searching by not utilizing those……but remember – you may have not, but instead removed all of the “EoC” locations. We are no different in our attempts. Just applying our techniques differently.

        Forrest has never said the beginning point isn’t a man-made place. He did say that the TC is not in a man-made structure…..or something like that. I don’t know the exact quote, because once I heard it, I move forward with that always in mind.

        Of course, I’ve chosen the most difficult of the many paths availble, huh? If this truly is how FF describes the location to start at, in which I think it is, then it will be a difficult path to follow…..just as Fenn predicted.

        (b) Unless you can show how the poem points to a specific place in that civilization.”
        – Why would I have to show that the poem points to that specific place? Has someone done this already? Let’s cross-reference your “theory”.
        – Let’s say I chose a warm spring as my starting point. Based upon your statement of ….”Unless you can show how the poem points to a specific place in that civilization”….how is it that a warm spring is pointed to within the poem? Do you have something of reference yourself? Or are you just “guessing” that your location is the starting point? You used the book, huh? You used a place where FF went….or says he went, didn’t you?

        “Unless you can show how the poem points to a specific place in that civilization.”

        IMO – The poem does point to a specific location to begin. In fact, every single starting point that someone has used or stated that they have used, is a guess from somewhere that FF had talked about in his book, TTOTC, or through actual interviews. In other words, your guess is as good as mine, is it not? It really all depends upon how far you can take your first guess through the features or places in the poem that puts it as a possible BOTG effort. I’m at that point.

        You’ve stated that you have not physically put BOTG because you are still trying to figure out where to begin….sort of being in a “search and understand” mode. I can understand that position very well……I think I am still somewhat perplexed on many things in the poem, but there comes a time when the “deciding portion” of the search has to end and one must make an executive decision on what to do….just to see if they are right or wrong. No matter what it is, it will be a learning experience, and that is what I strive to do…learn from my mistakes.

        I do have a reason why I say “EoC” – and it really isn’t a guess anymore…..but an actual forward motion I’ve decided upon, because of a hint in the book and in the poem. After two years of further investigation and sometimes just sitting around thinking about things…..both were discovered to be very plausible to my location. They both are applicable to a specific place…..because of something that was found out while I was out on my first trip two years ago. Thus, with me stumbling upon the “WWWH”, it actually panned out for me to do more researching. Now come two years later, they both seem to have been confirmed…..but with a further studying of the poem. In fact, they are not the only hints that this region I selected has given me, but since that initial trip, I have since discovered two other instances that beckons me to say, that isn’t a coincidence anymore.

        It was just too coincidental for me that these things matched exactly….and then add two more….come on “Seeker” why wouldn’t I continue with the “EoC” as my starting point?

        Now you may say that this is just another “aberration” – as someone else had previously stated – when I commented upon another discovery I made and mentioned on these blogs. Another coincidence I’m sure, huh?

        I think not.

        In my life…..too many coincidences reflect fact.

        Am I so positive I found something that will eventually take me to Indulgence?

        I do.

        Is it accurately configured on my end? I think it is….or pretty close……because there are just too many coincidences that become visible, in order for me to be wrong.

        I’ve stated this before…..I am trying to help others, and not to boast. I’m a nobody that thinks I have found something you have not. I’m gonna go with it until it is not worthy of my time.

        This thinking is just like every other searcher. We look, we seek, we find, we put BOTG, we lose or we win. I keep to the positives and think I will win……because if you think you will lose, you will.

        I am no different than you…..except I like to challenge myself with seeing if I am right or wrong by applying the BOTG situation when I can and when it is affordable to me. I have no worries about failing, because I know that is part of life….we all fail at many things….I know I have had to struggle for most of my life, but I still manage to keep moving forward in a positive manner, in hopes that I capture that one special Leprechaun, just like you probably have done many times in your own way.

        Shoot – you are on this search, so that shows you are eager and excited to be part of something that can be physically enjoyed. And in truth….this quest is probably the only time you will ever get the chance to be part of something special……..just like me.

        Good questions sir…..

        Good luck to you.

        • Tim
          I like your attitude–I’m not going to wish you good luck, from your statement and research luck will have absolutely nothing to do with your location. Don’t you just it when one clue confirms the other–no coincidences here…

          • but….I am a lucky guy…..so I have to disagree…..luck played a roll……

            If I didn’t stumble upon a starting point, I am pretty sure, I wouldn’t have ever found where I should begin.

            …and yes…*in his best A-Team Hannibal voice* “I just love it when a plan comes together.”


        • not everyone here is seeking help and I’d venture even less read your last post.

          • No worries aMp…..my words probably won’t help anyone……but that won’t stop me from sharing what I have found – just to know I’ve added to the discussion, is plenty good qwith me.

            I’d also suggest that you skip over my posts then, because it appears you have already determined them to be not helpful.

            There is a foot race to the finish line that is already in play, aMp…..I hope you haven’t gotten stuck at the starting gate.

            Good luck!

          • Tim, I’m a backdoor man, I won’t be at the starting gate. I’ll be in the bleachers placing bet with the trophy and sharing my popcorn.

  5. Also bumped into another searcher this trip, a young lady with a 3″ thick notebook and a beautiful name. She was wondering about HoB and I wanted to tell her what I knew but didn’t. We swapped #’s and agreed we’d let the other know if either of us found it. I’m tempted to spill the beans of my solve and let her take a look for me. I was 5hrs. Into a hike and got a phone call, she said ” I know what your looking for ” I thought darn it I’ve been had lol. Turns out my father in law who did the driving this trip was at the bar she worked at and running his big mouth while I was out traipsing in the bush. Word to the wise, if you take someone along find another reason for going there and tell them that’s what your doing.

    • Remember the word’s of the Wise–Only two can keep a secret if —I’m not suggesting anything..LOL
      When it comes to gold and gold fever kicks in you can just slowly see what transpires…

      • I once wandered into the most grand of public libraries one rainy afternoon. It was at least seven floors with this vast and airy center. I stood there in the middle for a long and measured moment. Sipping my coffee I slowly spun on my heel, my eyes spiraling towards the sky as I gazed at these wondrous volumes of stories just waiting to be told. I was surrounded by adventures had, shared and waiting to be shared again.

        Standing there enchanted by the beauty of it all, my thoughts began to trail away, imagining all the stories that must go untold. The epic adventures had and cached away for only a select few to ever have known. More than worthy of these wooden shelves, wrought with emotion and plagued with unfortunate missteps; forever absent.

        How spectacular it must be to have one of these stories for your very own! How indulgent and delightfully selfish a secret is that which goes unshared. Entombed in the vivid memories of so few and precious all the more.

        Another sip, my eyes tracing the white pillars from their solid stone beginnings to their soaring end. The weight of these many imagined worlds on their bare shoulders. As I started for the door, leaving the way I came, a sly grin crept its way ear to ear. Another beautiful rainy day, let’s fill it..with wonders.

        • *winks*

          Hey FnG….don’t stare and wonder to long…..you are missing many adventurous moments.

          Step toward…don’t be shy…..let you imagination take control for a while.

          Slope into a pirate outfit if it helps….


          Standing around while the world is moving forward….,well……you’ll get left behind if you aren’t paying attention.

          Cheers and good luck!

          • Tim,
            Give us a peak into the general area where you think it is & I know you said you came to this blog after you couldn’t debunk your solve.

            What makes you think we can’t when your mind is already made up?

          • I already gave you a radius…now you want specifics…that wouldn’t be fun at all….

            “What makes you think we can’t when your mind is already made up?”
            – as with any belief, beliefs can change with new information being revealed.

            So you are incorrect about my intentions.

            BTW – I’ve been in this blog for well over three years, I’m not new.

            Thanks…good question.

          • You want people to tear your solve apart as they have done with the little you have shared.

            Your intentions are easy to figure but the way you arrive at it has me puzzled.

            You may need a psychiatrist. Maybe everyone here needs at least one in their head.

          • Hi again Jake,….One more thing….don’t forget, I’m crazy, so really….why do you keep thinking anything I say is helpful?

            Maybe you should move onto those who have taken 80+ trips, and then ask them why have they taken so many trips and came back emptyhanded? Wouldn’t that help you and your solve? Cleary they liked the wildnerness and being in it, right?…and probably more so than I do. Great. I’m not one for that, so don’t choose me to embark the many times as they have, I’ll be sure have something worth my while. They know so much more than I ever will about the wild.

            But….am I just as dedicated? You bet I am. I’m just loading my guns…all the way…..so I don’t have to take as many trips as others….you can sort of say I am learning by other people’s mistakes, huh? I just don’t have the funds to travel repeatedly 1200+ miles each way.

            Seeker is right about that aspect of this quest in some extent, but I think one still needs to go to a search area and look at the region….so you have a better grasp of the search area. That helps you make different decisions, but clearer ones.

            Good luck to you.

          • Tim,
            Seeker is not wrong on any aspect of the chase because his wording & ideas do not allow for him to be wrong when the chest isn’t found.

            It’s all still open for interpretation.

            Your 11 clues give me doubt about how well you have listened to the man.
            Carry on.

          • Don’t Shoot!!!
            Tim..lol… I wish you just stopped at “Seeker is right”

            Many that have taken those “80 + trips,” have rearrange their thoughts and ideas and method and have tried different location. I applaud those who have that interest and capability to do so…

            I bite my tongue till it bleeds when others come back with their perfect “I know solves,” and spout all the excuses and great epiphany while leaving the search area.

            Honestly, It doesn’t really matter to me how many searches are scratched on ones boot… it’s listening to how they got it all correct. love to tell all they do, Fail to find the chest and never want to admit themselves wrong… on any level.

            I give a lot of respect for The Jenny Kiles And Dal Neitzel’s enthusiast, who have done this type of interest most of their lives.

            Failure is not getting it wrong… it’s not admitting you did or trying to correct it… but still brag how great it is.

            Ok now you can say ~ Seeker is right.

          • No I won’t.



            In trying to use reverse psychology on him to go out and seek….shhhhhhh!!!….

  6. My warm waters halt is where/when someone chose monetary gain over being ethical. Have fun trying to figure that one out!

  7. “where the water was cold”
    Special place.
    My secret bathing spot.
    Worth the effort.

    After taking a bath you can catch some trout & cook them in Ojo Caliente.

  8. I can keep my secret where…….Begin it where. The end is the beginning….of something. If I can figure out where WHERE is…….I could be the answer.

  9. I need a SUBMARINE. We are surrounded by roads closed due to flooding.

    • Stay safe Windy…..if only some super heroes were real, huh?

      I guess that is why I live at the 6000 ft level.

      Take care of your family.

  10. Tim- I applaud your comments and your technique. you, or someone like you will find the chest.
    Good luck-

    • Thanks emmett…I do hope I am the “chosen one”…..hehehe….I think we all have this feeling though.

      Thanks for the extra confidence. Taking a trip to an unknown destination is not one of my favorite things to do, being a city bot and all, but shoot….that is a nice box of loot.

      I’m a goer and a gamer!


      • Oh ya, right Zoso.
        You’re the “chosen one”.

        I guess we should all step aside & let you part the sea.

        So F is picking & choosing?

        Dude. You are so F’d up, you don’t’ even know which way is up.

        • You apparently applied a religious association/connotation to the words. I used. Wrong, I’m actually non-religious.

          You just exposed how people can read FF wrong.

          Your post is a great example of why people cannot get past the first clue….one-way thinking will not give you the simplicity needed in order to solve the puzzle.

          Thank you for your help on showing others the perplexity of word usage.

          You did well.


          • Tim,
            Just a quick question or something for you to think about concerning your area.
            Forrest said he would prefer searchers wait until the snow melts to begin their searches. However, he has also said (in not so few words) “…but if you know exactly where to go I’m sure you can retrieve it in any weather.”
            Anywhere in the Rocky Mountains at 5000 to 10,200 elevation has at least a few feet of snow covering it. How can you have a general area to search (vice an exact coordinate) and be able to retrieve it if Momma Nature has decided to decorate it with a few feet of frozen frosting?

          • Hi Kevin…good question.

            IMO – if you are familiar with the actions precipitation dirs, you should already know that the RMS usually have snow on them until Spring. Even then it all depends upon the elevation one would be at. The higher the elevation, the more likely snow will remain longer. How much snow are we talking about?

            How many storms occurred in the region?
            How long did those storms last?
            etc..etc…etc…you get my point, I think.

            So when would be the best time to go….is really the root question, huh?

            You decide, I guess. Why waste time digging through snow if you came see the bottom of the snow.

            IMO – based upon the poem, I think FF recommends a spring or fall time to go and search, because it does seem to be the best time (brave the cold), and because there is less foliage to look through, and probably very little snow to tackle as well. If course that does not rule out SUMMER at all, but one then must add in the safety from wild animals.

            Being a city boy…bear spray and a .38 now become a necessity….in addition to the flashlight and sandwich….LOL

            Did that give some clarity?

            Good luck!

          • IMHO, leaving for your search area too early in the season can create as much of a fail-condition for your search as arriving too late. For those who can only make one trip out to the Rockies this season to search, I recommend waiting for a time until you are very sure that the snow will be all gone.

          • Tim: “You just exposed how people can read FF wrong.”

            I’m pretty sure we all have read him wrong, including the 11 clue dude.

        • Jake, it’s apparent that your solve is complete and satisfactory, and you’re now just waiting for non-snowy weather, dry ground, and a convenient time (between other obligations) to go right to the TC.

          I hope you enjoy your search experience and
          share the results with us.

          All IMO. Yours may differ.

      • It’s a large area. Elevations are roughly in the range 6,000-7,500 ft.


      • Around 6500 above sea level. It varies. Within the basin there are 6 salt water lakes.

      • Why does the elevation of WWWH matter? The CHEST is 5000 to 10,200 feet, he never stated the clues where.

    • I agree that the Great divide basin is WWWH. The problem is where to go from there.

      • Windy City,

        The Great Divide Closed Basin is my choice of WWWH as well. (Fascination stemming from the Red Desert.)

        Have you checked out the Circle Bar Lake?

        If interested, the following list leads to some nearby areas that I think warrant attention:

        Brown Ditch Canal
        South City Pass
        Eight Lazy Y Ranch
        Flagg Ranch
        Horse Track Ridge and Spring
        Wagon Train Spring and Ridge
        Chain Lakes Rim
        Popo Angie Number 1 mine area

        Wyoming holds such great adventure!


        • No, I have not, but thank you for the leads. I am recovering from a major surgery and some other medical issues that has limited my PC time. I has a total right shoulder replacement and I am right handed. Computing left hand was very tedious. I can use both hands now. However, it does not take long for my shoulder to act up. Something about the angle to reach the key board. It is getting better and I hope to get back to full speed research.

          Thanks again,

          Windy City

          • Been experiencing constant muscle discomfort involving the right scapula; No fun at all. (Can’t begin to imagine all you’ve gone through.)

            Keeping you in my thoughts and prayers, Windy City.

            Be well,


        • SL, I can’t much argue with The Great Divide
          Closed Basin qualifying as a place WWWH,
          but wouldn’t many other lakes also qualify
          equally well? I think the word “warm” is more
          important here than one may believe/admit.

          By the way, have you shown the poem to a

          Good luck to you. I think you’re gonna need

          All the above is my opinion.

      • The “official” divide is the slope on the western side. If the basin filled with water, it would start to leak (cease halting and start moving) into the North Platte on the eastern side.

        So down the Platte drainage might be the way to go.


        • J A Kraven,

          Although I’ve not read a history of this having ever occurred, the implications of the Basin becoming filled with water are indeed important.

          Thank you.


        • That is not true JA, the waters in the Great Divide basin do not spill over. You are thinking of another place in Wyoming where this does happen.

          • Hey-O, WyMust –

            I did say “IF the basin filled with water.” Just a way of saying that the rim of the Basin is lower on the east side than it is on the west side, as a possible answer to “where to go from there?”

            From a USGS report:

            “As a topographic feature, the present Continental Divide . . . . splits and encircles the Great Divide Basin, which has interior drainage and contains many ill-defined watersheds and closed depressions, some of which contain playas.”

            “If the Great Divide Basin were filled to overflowing, it would spill to the North Platte River across a broad threshold about 2,000 m above sea level. The low point in the west rim of Great Divide Basin is just west of Tipton, Wyo., at an altitude of about 2,070 m. This is the true position of the Continental Divide.”

            There’s lots of tangled hydrology all along and west of the Continental Divide in Wyo north of the Great Divide. Three Waters Mountain SW of Dubois, for example, separates headwaters that will flow to the Gulf of California, the Pacific Ocean, and the Gulf of Mexico.

            Is Kinky Creek Divide your other spillover?


          • Isa lake is not the same thing.

            The fact is the GD basin is unique, no other place there is the same. Water does not drain into any Ocean. It does not “fill up”.

            Using that logic I can tell you that in millions of years the Rockies will once again be below sea level just like it was 70 million years ago. California will once again be an island.

            The divide is split, you would cross it twice in that area.

            Do you really think FF is worried about the Rockies becoming below seal level once again, or the great divide basin losing its desert status and becoming an oasis with water overflowing?

            If that is how you think, good luck with the poem. Forrest thinks 100-500 years, not millions of years when that entire area is wiped out with 10 feet of volcanic ash and sunk back down into the earth.

            I don’t mind a debate, but seriously, best argument is the GD basin spilling over? Really? Please tell me what your thoughts are on it? What is a unique place to you?

          • Your argument is with the USGS, WyMust, not with me. It’s their figure of speech.

            Neither I nor the USGS think that waters actually have spilled, or do spill, or would spill over out of the Basin (in human time, anyway).

            I was replying to Windy City* by suggesting a “where to go from there” based on the USGS report I then quoted.

            *(Windy City wrote – “I agree that the Great divide basin is WWWH. The problem is where to go from there.”)

            The words in quotes in my previous post are from a USGS document (on the eastern Uinta Mts) by Wallace R Hansen. It’s about 3/4 of the way down the section this link will take you to:


            I myself still like the Green side, not the N Platte side. But I have fond history with that Utah-Wyo-Co corner of the world that goes way back before the chest was hid.

            Oh, and Isa Lake was simply my response to what you wrote: “You are thinking of another place in Wyo where this does happen.”


      • Well you could go south into Browns Park, then south through Lodore 🙂

        You could also go north. Canyon down does have to mean south.

        In fact, if we were flying north over the basin, I could say to you “Once we get over the Wind River mountain ridge, lets go down into the cayon/valley below and put in (land) there. In this case our movement is northerly, but we are descending down to land below the hoB.

        Maybe the hoB is Browns Park?

        Maybe the hoB is Yellowstone Park.

        It all depends on how you interpret the first few stanzas and what you think the distance is from WWWH to the canyon down to the hoB. There could be gaps in between one or more of them, or they could all be the same spot.

        People have thought the CD was one possible WWWH for many years now. In most spots water flows to the pacific, others the atlantic (via the great lakes or the gulf of Mexico). In one place it feeds both oceans due to nature, in another place in colorado via the Great Ditch it feeds both. But there is only one spot where the water does not feed any ocean, and that is at the GD Basin and Red Desert area where the divide forms a circle.

        I’m not saying this is my WWWH, but if you were to pull back the camera and imagine flying like fenn, or even remember what you probably learned in school, that might be the first thing to come to mind (before getting down years of rabbit holes and / or reading Fenns books). When you think of waters halting or being scarce, first thing might be a desert, where the waters are sure to be warm if they exist.

        There are clearly other possibilites, but from the bigpicture of looking at 4 states, my eyes would go there. They would not go to yellowstone because I consider that hot water, but that (or the opposite, a glacier) would be my second thoughts.

        But think about this:

        Cold water halts when it becomes frozen/ice
        Hot water halts when it becomes steam

        So that leaves us with cool or warm, he chose warm which is higher in temperature but not hot or boiling. Wouldn’t that match a desert or a desert oasis? What is the most famous desert in the four states that is not only a desert, but even in the raining season it does not tribute to any coastal waterways?

        • “…and take it in the canyon down”. He could have said, “take it in down the canyon”, but didn’t. So, maybe, just maybe the word “down” may not refer to an elevation change. It occurs to me that down could reference goose feathers. Goose feather canyon? Goose canyon? Feather canyon? Just my mind trying to sneak a peak outside the box.

          • Have looked into this for a bit. There are actually several to choose from across the 4 states: goose canyon, creek, geese c, duck, duckling, swan, etc.

          • I think that canyon down is south – and anything below home of brown would be to the north imo

          • Frank;

            Thinking that canyon down = south makes sense. But ” and anything below home of brown would be to the north imo”
            makes NO sense to me, that would take you back up the canyon you just came down.

            Anything below hoB, I would think would be more East or West of hoB.

            Doesn’t that make more sense? JDA

          • JDA, he never tells us to go down the canyon. The waters halt and take, not you. The poem grammar is proper, and when read properly we are not being told to go down the canyon.

          • Wy

            I have Aldo mentioned this several times. No one seems to like it..

            Halt and take it in the Canyon down

            That’s what we are looking for.


          • WyMustIGo, it doesn’t functionally make any difference whether it’s the searcher or the waters that “take it in the canyon down”.

            The poem still instructs a searcher to “Put in below the Home of Brown”. That sentence stands on its own merits.

            Good luck solving and searching.
            Please keep safety a high priority
            in the Rockies.

          • Tighterfocus –

            There are no directions in the poem. There is YOUR interpretation of what the poem may offer as directions. WY is attempting to explain how the poem actually reads without interpretation. How it would be read as a poem without any thought of directions to a mentally corrupting target fascination.

            As a poem it’s a description of a place.
            A place where warm waters halt and take it in the Canyon down, not far but to far to walk, (having) put in below the home of Brown. I added the word having and hopes that this will help you understand the idea.

            Put in may be a direction or it may be a description. Regardless it does not truly become a direction until you inject your ego. Without a participant there are no directions.

            I will add that Fenn didn’t say there are directions. He said there “nine clues that if followed precisely, will lead to the end of my rainbow and my treasure” You can read the quote.


        • The word “halt” refers to motion.

          (I’m trying to be brief, rather than long-winded
          and therefore more offensive.)

          All IMO.

          • Honestly everyone on this adventure is super cool in my opinion ! So ultimately I’d like to share my opinion for a moment with the direction folks are taking. Personally after long careful thought on the entire matter I strongly feel that the answer is ( hidden ) within the thrill of the chase !!!!! And the poem is the decoder !!!

            Forrest indicated that he felt like an Engineer/Architect when writing the book and the poem !!!!!!

            People have been dropping anchor and leaping before they look …… Quite honestly, I feel that the exact placement can be pinpointed to the exact spot before making that journey !!!

            JUST SAYING

    • Wymustigo…I agree with you and that location is superb…but wait! We’ve had that conversation before! Good luck!

  11. Grrrr…wrote a really cool post and hit “post comment” and it didn’t take! Testing with this one.

  12. Tim, I love your enthusiasm. This will be my 6th season with 80 searches under my boots. This season, just like every season, I reconfigure my solve, make focused observations on a good map, marry my clues and head out on another adventure. I’ve struck out with all my angles, as far as finding Indulgence, but the discoveries I’ve made…! 🙂

    The funny thing I remember from my first couple of seasons, was that I was constantly running into things that “added up” to the clues. That is what is so special about F’s construction job…a million things fit the poem!

    I’m not using his “91 mile hike” as a perimeter. But, I am using his “about ten miles” comment for the distance of the canyon road I will take. Maybe 9 and 3/4 like on the Mad Hatter’s card. I don’t have a circumference area mapped out, just the clues going 1-9 to my blaze.

    But, who am I to say your weed isn’t a flower? My only piece of advice is…keep your options open. Don’t cement your thinking on one solve. If you get out to your area and it’s not there, have a back-up solve ready to go! My first solve/botg, was a bust and I got so disappointed that I was miserable the rest of my trip. That’s what happens when you get over confident.

    Finding the treasure is no stroke of luck. You should have a destination that you can go right to (the blaze) and pull it up.
    No searching involved. You will walk right to it with confidence, which you have. And I hope you are right!

    Don’t crow too much about your “ah-ha” discovery! It tends to ruffle feathers. Just smile, wink and say “I think…!” Best of luck to you, and BE SAFE! Maybe the stars are in the right lucky position!
    ¥Peace ¥

    • Thanks Donna for the response.

      If you have read other posts….I’m out having fun, encouraging others to have fun, and most of all learn a few things along the way.

      If people getvruffled, that is on them…Not me…I have never had intentions to get beat up for what I say, because in truth,, I have given plenty ofbjints to help others.

      I sometimes imagine if I did expose my “ah-ha” moment….because I know it would change the focus of the poem.

      I appreciate your thoughts and thank you for being honest in your perception of me….but in a nutshell, I just having fun…..and is probably the only fun I will ever have on a real life treasure hunt.

      Think of it that way, for a while….you’ll see my intent.

      Cheers and good luck D!

      • Tim,
        This is in response to my question a few posts up. No, you didn’t really answer my question. You stated when you believed was the best time to search (which I agree.). But my question was, “How can you retrieve the TC if it was buried in a couple feet of snow if you only have your search area narrowed down to a certain area vice an EXACT coordinate?” Forrest has said if we know exactly where to go then we can probably retrieve it in any weather.
        Thanx and good luck.

        • Hi Kevin.
          “How can you retrieve the TC if it was buried in a couple feet of snow if you only have your search area narrowed down to a certain area vice an EXACT coordinate?” Forrest has said if we know exactly where to go then we can probably retrieve it in any weather.

          Two hypotheticals…”how can you”……&……combined with….”if you only”….

          Both can be already explained, if you remove the snow when you go and retrieve it. For me, I’ll go when I am aware that there will be no snow at the elevation I need to be at. That is smart thinking, because i eliminated that obstacle.

          “If you only”…..IMO…I do have a specific coordinates…probably down to 10 ft radius target zone.

  13. I don’t spent much time over here, but I notice that the discussion keep moving on dal’s blog, might have to spend some time reading some of this..

  14. Every one is looking at the same strategy of using physical geography and location as a way to decipher the clues…..

    My journey begins with using the clues to find the answer in a book !

    • Danny,
      Get a great book from the library, it may help you indirectly in some ways.
      I lost count of how many Vietnam- era conflict books I found, read, thoroughly enjoyed… public libraries oh yeah! (kindly ignore Seeker when he claims no history necessary)

      Many of the books recall stories of jet pilots ‘cept this guy pilots the ‘boxcar’. I couldn’t help but re-read again.
      It’s an amazing true story, it’s worth your time. ‘Flying through Midnight’ as written by the propeller pilot John T. Halliday.

      Mr. Halliday & Sullenberger literally have nerves of steel

    • Toby,
      If you could throw the newbies a little insight so we don’t have to correct them so much.
      Thant would be appreciated.
      Then again it’s a never ending cycle.

    • My biggest problem with the fishing guide theory is the poem is supposed to be solvable by anyone without any research, apparently even including the TTTOC book.

      If that is true, the poem makes no effort to explain anything related to fishing that would force someone to even look there. We do it because we know FF fishes.

      I’ve also found warm water bodies defined in the Montana fishing guides. In fact, they even charge different amounts for the license in cold vs warm waters.

      I think WWWH has to be a geological feature that someone would know pretty much without a lot of research at all.

      Same with hoB, I don’t think fishing is involed with any clues at all.

      I could be completely wrong, we both could be completely wrong, so who knows. Until the chest is found we can do our best at using deductive reasoning and research to form a theory that hopefully some day becomes a proven fact in the field.

      Having said all that, I do tend to agree with a lot of your theories, especially the one about 3D and imagine that you are a pilot. Been suggesting that for a year now, to me just reading the poem sounds like we are on his last mission when he was shot down.

  15. I’ve been reading these for over a year now and noticed when someone says something others disagree with they same the same thing over and over. How about a consortium of stuff instead of mostly he said/she said… I love what is said except for the rundancy.
    And SUB.

    • HOB,
      There’s a 147 page book, a 166 word poem, over 300 and growing SB’s, forrest gets mail, vignettes. Hundreds of interviews, comments and statements, Q&A’s, and special words from fenn…

      What do you bring to the table? We’re here to hear what you have to offer.

    • You must be a slow reader…there aren’t that many posts in a day…and what’s a rundancy?

    • HoB_k
      You should ‘ve jumped right in a year ago, I guess by now you figured out Dal is probably the only who doesn’t bite. Give us something to chew on, have you read ff’s books, where’s you home state, planning any excursions- if so which will it be North/ South/ or in the middle?

      Go alittle crazy, IMO that’s what the chase is all about [YOLO]

    • What is your theory?

      Why post at all if you are not going to suggest what you think WWWH means, and why you feel that way.

      Forums are a place for mutal discussion, not a wiki for lurkers to compile solutions from.

      Besides, its not what is said in public, its what happens that is not public that matters. People will offer opinions, nobody is going to lay out a solution (until they know it didn’t work, or they are trying to cash in and get some other poor sod to pay to do the work they are too lazy to do).

      • I am retracting my first comment by stating 3 things. Don’t drink and drive, don’t text and drive, and lastly, don’t drink and text.

        I want to apologize to the community for being rude.

        That being said, my WWWH has to do with something ff said (not a quote), you should learn a few Spanish words..

  16. Nothing like diving headfirst into the cement pond without water! Smooth….

  17. jda – lets just say that im at wwwh- and it sends me south to find hob if I find that its there – then I have the right wwwh – the tc is north of santa fe at a higher elevation – so hob is zero elevation – and its as far south as you are going to go- so go back north to wwwh where all the clues are north of hob and you go up in elevation where the tc is – I hope I made sense and al this is my opinion

    • Hi Frank. I do understand what you are trying to give an example with, but remember….

      “Misdirection” is inevitably what the poem is all about, because you also see it applied with the many meanings that can be found with any single word or group of words/phrase.

      Utilizing the quote by FF that Jake posted in another blog, “Each word is deliberate.”…..that too has many meanings, if you break it down. Misdirection……

      Do we discard word phrases altogether, because each word can have a different intended meaning or the meaning is something cryptic?

      Do we now question every word Fenn has stated?

      Is down truly “south”? Could it be just a “look” in a downward or southerly direction, as it is stated later in the poem?

      Does deliberate only mean one of the three definitions it has listed? Or does FF apply a different meaning using his own meaning?


      Not to make this opinion any longer, but are you ready to go down that rabbit hole?

      Maybe FF is telling us of a leisurely stroll through the wilderness he’s taking during that afternoon and all the while he heads to the final destination of the TC?

      Remember this, he said that he “laughed the way back as he walked back to his car.” (paraphrased, but close enough). That is how we all know he drove to the TC location. But that doesn’t explain the poem at all, huh? How far from the TC location?

      Did you think of the poem in that way?

      Maybe is a strong word that also shows much misdirection within it.

      “Each word is delibrate.” …how deliberate? What made him choose each word? How does his meaning apply to the poem?

      Not delibrately, not deliberated, not anything but deliberate, huh?

      Textual criticism is your friend. Trust me….it is your friend when you travel down rabbit holes.

      Good luck.

  18. Frank;

    Not trying to argue with you. If you are happy with your reasoning – go for it!
    BUT: You say:,”jda – lets just say that im at wwwh- and it sends me south to find hob if I find that its there – then I have the right wwwh –” Frank, there are THOUSANDS of wwwh north of Santa Fe, in the Rockies. Just because you leave “A” wwwh, and happen to find some place that MAY be a hoB – Proves nothing!. Hundreds upon hundreds of searchers can attest to this fact. Every one of them has found “A” wwwh, and then went down a canyon and found “A” hoB.

    You then say,” the tc is north of santa fe at a higher elevation – ” Why must it be at a higher elevation. Nothing in the poem – to this point has said that it is at a higher elevation. Again it MAY be at a higher elevation, but that higher elevation can be in ANY direction from hoB..

    “so hob is zero elevation – and its as far south as you are going to go- ”
    I can agree to that – kinda.

    so go back north to wwwh – WHY??? Why would Forrest take you from wwwh – down a canyon to hoB, just to

    where all the clues are north of hob and you go up in elevation – you can go up in elevation by going East or West, or any direction NNE, ESE, East, West, WNW etc. I encourage you to look at all of the possibilities. Going back to wwwh Makes NO sense. Going south, down the canyon to hoB, only to return to wwwh is a waste of time. Forrest could have eliminated canyon down and hoB if he wanted you to go back to wwwh…and saved two full stanza’s. He could have said, Begin it where warm waters halt, and from there it’s no place for the meek…etc.

    You MAY be right, but I just can not fathom your logic Frank. JDA

    • Frank;

      One more thought, and I will shut up.
      Begin it…canyon down…not far…put in…hoB. The next “Direction says,” From there it’s no place for the meek…”

      Forrest gives you NO directions to go back up the canyon, NO direction to go back to wwwh. All he says is, “From there (hoB) it’s no place for the meek.” So according to you, wwwh = No place for the meek. Does your wwwh also meet the criteria of being a place that would be no place the meek might want to go? If not, you had better re-think – at least in my humble opinion.

      Like I said earlier though – If you ARE HAPPY WITH YOUR SOLVE UP TO THIS POINT – go for it!!! JDA

  19. jda – thanks for your reply – I like commenting when there are no smart remarkes it makes it easer to discuss and talk about it and I thank you – jda its not that you really go there with boots on the ground- what im talking about is markers of the poem that you look for on a map- things that you look for that tell you where you are – and hob and wwwh is some of them as you know he drove there to hide the chest that’s where he put botg the rest of the clues he drove by them and that was hob wwwh the blaze heavy loads the blaze until he got to in the wood where he parked and walked – that’s the way I see it and that’s just an opinion

    • I agree with some of what you say. BotG are not REQUIRED (at least not for me) until later in the poem. I agree – “Begin it where wwwh” – Find a spot on a map that could be a wwwh.

      Step #2 – “And take it in the canyon down.” – look for a canyon that leaves the wwwh spot, and either goes south, or goes lower in elevation – or both. – On a map or GE – no BotG required yet.

      Step #3 – “Not far but too far to walk.” Decide (for yourself) how far that is. It may be 5 miles, it may be 10 miles, it may be 100 miles – that is your choice.

      Step #4 – “Put in below (Probably south, or a bit lower in elevation) the hoB. Somewhere “Down Canyon” you find a place that you think could be a hoB – hopefully it was within the distance parameter you established for yourself.

      Step #5 – “From there it’s no place for the meek.” so – you are at hoB. The directions tell you that from this location (hoB) that ffom there, it’s no place for the meek. From hoB, you must now find a NEW place that the meek would not want to go to..(We are still “Map Looking”)

      Here is where we differ. I say find a NEW place (in ANY direction OTHER THAN BACK UP THE CANYON) – It MAY even be farther DOWN THE CANYON! It MAY be East, it MAY be west – ANYWHERE but back to wwwh.

      Good luck Frank and TRY to STAY SAFE – JDA

      • Good breakdown JDA. As a kid when I went fishing in streams and rivers with my grandfather when he said below he referred to further downstream. Because of this when looking on GE I try to pay attention to the flow of river by the white water in the image. Not sure if this is the right way to go about it but just thought I’d share.

        • Sure sounds good to me Aaron. At some point, we will need to go UP a creek…”There’ll be no paddle UP your creek….Just heavy loads and WATER HIGH”!!! Maybe at our hoB, we need to start going uphill, to a “no meek” place, and then farther uphill to the END and No Paddle place???


  20. JDA…..
    I had asked in a different “thread” the question about FF saying “all you need is the book and a good map” ( something to that effect) I am still trying to find out how many searchers participating on this blog believe that FF’s poem of clues is all you need. I have asked searchers, in general, how much in depth research do they believe is required. Of course, I never received a consensus of thought on the subject. But I am pleased and encouraged to read your approach to solving the mystery (if I can use that term) I agree with you completely and I find myself trying to determine when I can get off the map and put BotG to find the remaining, meaningful clues, and ultimately, the TC.
    Thanks for your insight.

    • BigSkip;

      For me stanza #4 – “If you’ve been wise and found the blaze – – – – Just take the chest and go in peace” has been my BotG jump-off point. I had found what I thought was a Blaze on TOPO’s and GE, but (for me) it took BotG to confirm it.

      “Look quickly down…” told me more WHERE to look, and not HOW to look. I now look at a larger area than at my feet.

      “There’ll be no paddle up your creek, just heavy loads and water high” has changed for me over the past few months.
      I am still in the same general area, but these two lines have taken on a much more significant meaning of late.

      Clues 6 thru 9 are in the last two stanza’s for me. I have learned to interpret these lines in a much more physical way than I did a year ago. Having BotG has helped shape my newer thought processes.

      Does this help? I hope so. JDA

  21. I assume everybody realizes forrest indicated that it was between Santa Fe and Canada

    Now, he didn’t specify which Canada…..

    Folks……. there is a Canada in Texas

    I’m going to leave it at that…. I assume respectfully that if anyone finds it in Lou of this idea before I do, That he or she who finds it would respectfully share the love of the findings.

    • Danny;

      You may be joshing us about Canada, TX. Forrest has definitely stated – 8.25 north of Santa Fe, NM, Colorado, Wyoming or Montana. JDA

      • From everything I read – it’s my understanding that this is what people ( assumed ) as I personally haven’t found anything in his own words to indicate those states

        Other than ruling out one or two of the States.Which he can honestly do with the idea that it could very well not be in any of those Northern States.

        • The map in TFTW might be helpful for you Danny. It shows the area of the treasure and it goes to the country Canada.

        • Danny;

          Have you read “The Cheat Sheet” at the top of every thread? It states, “♦The treasure is in one of 4 states: Montana, Wyoming, Colorado or New Mexico” This list has been around for a very long time. If there were any “misrepresentations” in it, Forrest would have corrected them LONG ago.

          Having a “NEW” thought is great, so long as it is not in direct conflict with stated facts. JDA

          • Hawks why would Mr Wong and rule or rule out any states that could be a possible logical location. Just sharing my thoughts here folks. That’s why my mind is on east of Santa Fe within Texas. I’ve also come to realize that some of the words in the poem could very well be street names….. or non- traditional geographiclocations

    • Danny ! That sounds like a great idea…you may be on to an angle not thought of yet. Keep up the great work.

    • Hi Danny — well, there is no Canada, TX. There is a “Canadian, TX” that is at a latitude barely north of Santa Fe. However, it is not in the Rocky Mountains. But all of this speculation is irrelevant because none of Texas is even in the highlighted portion of The Thrill of the Chase map found at the back of TFTW.

      • Danny: you’re being irrational. If you don’t believe anything Forrest has said, why do you believe he hid a treasure chest?

        • Because Mr. Fenn in my opinion is a man of his word but that doesn’t mean he can’t bend the rules of rationality.

    • It’s actually called Canadian, TX Danny, and it reminded me of a great old joke:

      A farmer is in Canadian, TX during a flood. The river is overflowing. Water is surrounding the farmer’s home up to his front porch. As he is standing there, a boat comes up. The man in the boat says, “Jump in, and I’ll take you to safety.”

      The farmer crosses his arms and says stubbornly, “Oh no thanks, I put my trust in God.” The boat goes away. The water rises to the second story. Another boat comes up. The man says to the farmer, who is now at the second floor window, “Hurry, jump in. I’ll save you.”

      The farmer again says, “Oh no thanks, I put my trust in God.”

      The boat goes away. Now the water is inching over the roof. As the farmer stands on the roof, a helicopter comes over, and drops a ladder. The pilot yells down to the farmer, “I’ll save you. Climb the ladder.”

      The farmer yells back, “Oh no thanks, I put my trust in God.”

      The helicopter goes away. The water continues to rise and sweeps the farmer off the roof into the swiftly moving water. Unfortunately, he drowns.

      The farmer goes to heaven. God sees him and says, “What are you doing here?”

      The farmer says, “I put my trust in you, and you let me down.”

      God says, “What do you mean, let you down? I sent you two boats and a helicopter!”

  22. Keep in mind personally the most important thing in my life is my wife and children. Now Mr. Finn said it was something very close and personal to him and it means a lot to him and something in my gut tells me it has to do with his wife or kids. Mr. Fenn also indicated that his most wonderful treasure that he had ever found was his wife ! They were married in Temple Texas at first Baptist Church which was burned down to the ground by an arsonist. Personally to me that is clearly the burn. In a church located in Temple Texas which is between Santa Fe and Canada Texas….just sayin ! I have read a lot of words of Mr. fenn and I come to realize that Mr. Fenn and I have a lot in common especially viewpoints ! And I never have been one to follow rules and I make my own as I go along. And on top of that I am an artist on the side of course.

  23. And forgive my spelling folks I’m using speech to text…… apparently Apple hasn’t gotten that fully functional just yet……

  24. Follow your instincts Danny…it’s all about the adventure. There’s tons of great info Dal’s blog that can help with your journey. The last thing you should do is listen to any searcher that doesn’t have the Chest….

    • “The last thing you should do is listen to any searcher that doesn’t have the Chest….”

      If you continue to have this type of thinking…..you will never be the one finding the chest.

      FYI – why would someone listen for instructions from someone who already found the chest? Wouldn’t that be ATF, and to be honest, quite useless?

      • He’s got a point Tim

        Just remember folks if anyone or myself finds that treasure between that area of Texas just remember ( Danny ) spoke about it on May 9, 2017

        • There is a Canada Steak Burger here in San Diego. Perhaps I’ll start looking here in Cali!

        • Danny, you do realize that Temple is south of the RMs…In fact most of Texas is..
          What part of the chest is hidden more than 8.25 miles N.of SF. NM is so hard to understand?

          I don’t understand how you can think it’s anywhere near there when we all know it’s in Kansas.

          • Now, the world is round so, is Temple really south of the RMs or is it waay north of it.

      • Okay Tim…sorry to have ruffled your feathers, but the truth is…no one here knows anything for sure.
        The only truths are the facts Fenn has blessed us with. The rest is drivel.

        • Hi ken…seriously…no feathers ruffled…..I just thought it was an odd statement to say.

          Basically, this is how I read it…..

          “Don’t ask any searcher for help who doesn’t have the chest.”


          One would think that if you “only” ask the one who finds the chest, then that would be a little late…..and clearly shows that person won’t be getting the TC.

          No worries for me, one less person searching…..*winks*……and waiting for the finder to let others know, so that poster can ask how it was done…..INSTEAD OF…..

          …..interacting with the chase in present time, and seeing how many different options one can have with at least trying to find the chest.

          Like I previously stated…..that kind of thinking will not find the chest, but only how it was done.

          The logic is there….but I’m not sure why someone would use that logic.

          That is what my comments are about.

          Best regards,

          • Tim…I was not going to reply to your reply to my “Don’t ask any searcher for help who doesn’t have the chest.”
            But on second thought…..my statement was poorly worded. I should have been more specific and said “…any searcher who does not positively for a fact know the location.” And yes, I agree…that would be too late. My point was to say that no one knows anything until they actually retrieve Indulgence. You merely made my point for me by answering or commenting to my statement AS IF you actually do for a fact know where the Bronze beauty lays in wait and thus are privy to the actual clues Fenn implanted in the map that is a riddle that is presented to us as a poem. One less searcher is not going to help you one bit as evidenced by the tens of thousands who have tried and failed….

          • Oh…..I agree. I expect failure, but…..just like the lottery, it only takes one winning ticket.

            In fact, our odds are better than the lottery, if you only take into consideration the number of searchers.

            1:100000….I like those odds.

            BTW – anyone can think of anything they like….and will do so….we all know the poem is solved and proven, when we find that elusive piece of land we all seem to be looking for. I know….you know……FF knows.

            But why not have some friendly banter among searchers….it does keep the conversation going if it is productive and civil. Don’t you agree?

            And you never know….maybe something said will be something neither of us thought of yet.

            IMO – I do have a great solve. Is it the winning one? I won’t know until I put it to the test.

            Could it make me closer to the end? Could very do so….causing me to go through this all again.

            I’m a positive guy. I like adventure and I also understand limitiations, failures, and obstacles, and how they play within my own life. I can live with going home empty handed, but seriously, I think I will keep being positive and think I have a winning solution until I prove myself wrong.

            Cheers and good luck to you.

          • Tim,
            Your odds are off.
            Believe it or not, we are not competing against each other as your odds indicate.

            How can you place odds against the man that wrote the poem.
            You can’t.

          • I agree Jake, the odds have some to do with the number of people searching but is more relative to the difficulty of the solve. The harder the solve the less the number of searchers come into play.

          • Probably true in many accounts, as he is expecting it to last years upon years.

            Add that variable to the statistical count….our odds do not get better.

            Oh well…..onward we travel through the land that exists between difficult and impossible, huh? Keep your wits about you….there are many useless path to follow.

            Good luck to you Jake.

          • How do you figure there are useless paths? If one traveled down a path only to turn around and return to the beginning to choose another path then the first path has shown you the right direction and is thus useful, An imperishable trail in a land between difficult and impossible is only that way because of the unknown. Each step makes a sound that echoes and further down the path you will hear it once again but louder until they themselves become imperishable. If you listen well, any direction will lead you to the places that are far but not too far to reach. all we have to do is walk softly.

            ~A Pyle

          • Hi aMp…..I wrote:

            “Probably true in many accounts, as he is expecting it to last years upon years. Add that variable to the statistical count….our odds do not get better. Oh well…..onward we travel through the land that exists between difficult and impossible, huh? Keep your wits about you….there are many useless path to follow. ”

            “there are many useless paths to follow.”
            – there are many that are useless. Many will not lead you to the TC. Therefore, those specific paths are useless.

            I do understand that a person will take many paths and those may or may not help “redefine” one’s path to achieve their goal. But, as a whole path, and not just parts of the path….then that path could be useless. You’ve taken my words to mean what you have stated. I don’t disagree completely….just some – and that is because of textual criticism is being applied.

            I can see you want words to mean only certain things.

            I’d advise against that line of thinking…..because you could have eliminated certain things that you probably shouldn’t have.

            aMp…..there are many in this hunt that have different ways of thinking on how to solve this puzzle. Clearly, I have one that doesn’t fit the normal thinking that others have expressed.

            Fine. I didn’t think I needed another person’s approval to advance the way I have.

            I’ll venture down many paths…..and I’ll also venture down those paths to eliminate them if they don’t fit with my thinking of why FF wrote it.

            Will I eliminate everything on that path? Of course not…..that would be foolish thinking, because like you, I know that something, maybe minute in details can redefine a path I take….and could very well change it completely and into a new path altogether.

            Good luck to you.

          • “You are right, the path is about life and death.”

            I disagree Steve Allen….although the paths we take could determine a life or death scenario to be shown to us while on that particular path……or…..nothing occurs and we continue on down the road as normal. But this hunt does not have anything to do with the “life or death” of the seeker – IMO.

            We do choose to go out into the wild, and possible follow alongside a possible path that could lead to death, but I’ve said this before and will say it again…..

            I think FF thought of people like me – one who doesn’t go into the wild that often – thus not as familiar with what to expect as would many other seekers. I think FF put the chest into a place that is safe for all ages to find.

            I also don’t expect FF to think people are going to die while out in the wilderness….although some have…..*pauses a moment to reflect upon those who have lost their lives*……and those moments are quite unfortunate and probably quite rare. I also think that FF feels that same hurt ,as we all do, for those who have had unfortunate actions happen.

            He wants us all to be safe out seeking…..so in essence and IMO – your conclusion of what this “path” means is pushing it more out to the extreme than to what I think it was meant to represent…..fun in the sun and/or to be out enjoying the lands in our great country that doesn’t get its due as often as it had in the past.

            Good luck to you.

          • Hi Steve Allen.

            Do you mean the poem is about “life and death”?

            Nah….IMO – you are reading way too much into it.
            – granted FF talks about death as a possible end result for himself, but in truth, we all die….so that result is upon us as well.

            It definitely is a path that follows along places and geological formations to a special place in FF’s mind.

            I’m not even sure on how you can determine it includes a “hospital”.

            Care to clarify your thinking?


            Good luck to you.

  25. Anyone who has read Mr. Fenn’s book should be able to agree that he has a unique way of thinking and a personal approach to following the rules ! This is an adventure created by a man who owns the rights to the rules and in my opinion if we are to find this treasure and walk his footsteps we have to think as Mr. Fenn would think. Outside of traditional reasoning !
    And furthermore yes we can collaborate with each other on ideas but as far as asking the creator of This quest/of hidden treasure to give us clues to the whereabouts of the treasure to me is a silly move. If any of us were to ask Blackbeard to give us the location or possible State that a treasure of his could be located, what do you think Blackbeard would say ?
    –>He would logically steer you in the wrong direction.

    • You echo what I have stated for a few years.

      “Be the chest.”

  26. Blackbeard: “Ye be thinkin’ I be tellin’ ya where I hid my hoard!!?? Ye can kill me first!!!”

    Blackbeard’s parrot (on his shoulder): “Try the wheel. Try the wheel.”

  27. JDA:
    Thanks for your direct response to me. I appreciate you sharing your insight and believe you are “right on”. I’m probably right behind you. Our thinking is very close. Getting off the map and into the wilds is the big hurdle for me. I truly believe the comments that the clues will lead you directly to the TC are correct. But, and that’s a big but, being on the ground to see, recognize and react to the remaining clues is my biggest challenge. I don’t think it’s going to be, “oh yes, there it is, Clue #5,6-7, how could I have missed it? I believe, as possibly you do too, a good map and the poem gets you to the starting place and to proceed with confidence, and to depart from the map to the search area is the real challenge. That’s where I’m going.
    Thanks again for sharing your thoughts.

    • You are welcome BigSkip – Good luck out there, and TRY to STAY SAFE. JDA

  28. Big Skip:
    Begin it where warm waters halt~ Do you have this clue solved? I
    his is the beginning point! Want to share what your theory is on this?

  29. Debi….
    Thanks for your reply. As to where WWH, I have several. ….All I can say at this point is that these places have been discussed here on the blog over the years. Nothing new, no surprises. With tens-of-thousands of searchers out there, I am sure one, two or a dozen searchers over the years have gotten it right. They just didn’t, or haven’t yet put it all together. The idea of BotG is very intimidating to find the necessary clues, but absolutely necessary. One of my interests is going back to when FF published his book and all the publicity about the TC. Blog searchers reminded me that he did mention a clue in his original book about the TC being north of Santa Fe. I have been interested in how FF would, in writing his poem of clues and it’s relationship to a good map, would direct a rational searcher to the TC when, at that time, one quarter of the United States was the search area. Over the years, places, restrictions, clues etc. have narrowed the search locations to the point where FF has published a map.
    I am influenced by those who say, “it right in front of our nose”
    All of course, in my humble opinion…

    • Keep in mind that although its been almost 7 years and probably 100,000 searchers, I woulld bet that less than a couple hundred actually left their house. The majority who did, are locals to the area.

      I believe that you can only get 1/2 way through the solution from home, and also have a good idea of what to look for when BOTG before you go. Most people never make that final leap of faith IMO.

      So having said that, it does not matter if 50000 people have used the same WWWH has you because only a a very small number actually took the trip to verify anything.

      I think some folks believe that someday someone will post a complete solve for them, or that somehow they will uncover the words “YOU FOUND IT” in the poem before leaving the house. Possible? Yes! Likely? Not in my opinion.

  30. To me, the word “halts” implies motion may move again. I had reasoned this before but could not put it on a map, until yesterday. Anyone else find a spot that fits the temporary nature of water halting? Also different from sinks canyon?

    • Bob,

      Yes. And yes.

      So far, you’re okay in my book. Please continue to think
      logically. I suggest also that you show the poem to a child
      (I’ve suggested this to others before), or, preferably, many
      children independently.

      I suggest also that you look up, in a dictionary, many words
      that are in the poem. I thought I knew them pretty well, but
      learned some useful stuff about them. And my list of words
      that are “key” appears to be still growing. The list now
      contains up to 5 (or so) words that are quite important to
      a correct solve, in my opinion. Not all the words appear
      in the poem. Some do.

      Good luck. Please stay safe.

      All the above is my opinion.

    • The word “halts” is not in the poem. Precise thinking is
      definitely required for a correct solve. One error could
      wreck all chances for this.

    • No place for a shower – as the warm waters halts! – Turns off. This is a place beyond the comfort of home.

    • @Joe, thanks….found a map link from 1923 after searching CH that showed where Pitch Fork is located, been wondering for past few years! Mule Creek! Crow has some interesting history. Went to sleep thinking of one of Hemingway’s short stories from probably near by. So many search areas to check out! IMO

  31. I believe this is the 1st clue without a doubt.
    If you don’t have this you got nothing.

    If you do have this you’re half way house is waiting.

    • I agree with you on this, Jake.

      I disagree with your denial of the inevitability of your hat-consumption.

      Just so we’re clear on conditions:

      High-definition video of hat consumption from start to finish posted by you online. No condiments allowed, though I will allow you to soak the hat in water in advance to soften up the fibers and whatnot (warm water only; no boiling allowed).

      • The only way I can eat my hat Blex, is if someone finds the treasure.
        I’ve been hungry for a while now & there is no end in site.

        I wish there was a page on this: “And take it the canyon down,”

        I can’t go any further without it.

        • Jake, I’ll trade you a ” canyon down ” for a ” no place for the meek “. I feel for yah bud, a guys gotta eat!

          • That’s not a fair trade aMp.
            I’ve always thought that “And take it the canyon down, ”
            Is a clue, but yet there is no page for it.

            Dal wants us to chat on specific pages about our thoughts & there is no thought page here.

          • Well then let just go behind his back and talk about it….I think wwwh is what is taken in the canyon down.
            I have a Jet boil stove if you tear that hat into tiny pieces and boil it awhile it aught to go down a bit quicker IMO.

          • Don’t over boil your solve aMp.
            It aint happening.
            The microbes will eat my hat before me.

            Show us the chest.

          • When are you heading out to search again?
            My trip is bumped up to July16th & hope it doesn’t change again.

  32. There is nothing in the poem that tells you how far to go down in the canyon but since it’s too far to walk, a drive in a vehicle is best and actually fits.

  33. Hmm . . . I’ve Lost the link to the to the list of blogs !
    I wrote a Poem for FF, but don’t have an e-mail to send it to him . an now can’t find the list to see if there is an appropriate place to put it other than on my flash drive !
    Took forever to find this blog again . . .
    Oh Well – guess this post can be deleted too !
    An I’ll just keep it to myself !

    • Wolf – please feel free to scribe your said poem on the HoD randomly-weird-scribble-board, or not
      ..or be secretive, or whatever. or not..

      ( ..i, for one, would like to read it …be brave!! 🙂 )

  34. Well, the conversation about whether WWWH is really the first clue has been settled. Turns out Forrest flat out said it.

    From an (allegedly) recently discovered interview from 2013 on “Radio New Zealand”, Forrest gives us this statement:

    “The first clue in the poem is, begin it where warm waters halt. That’s the first clue. If you don’t… if you can’t figure that clue out, you don’t have anything.”

    Here’s the link to the interview. The statement is at the 9:30 mark: http://www.radionz.co.nz/audio/player?audio_id=2550897

    Earliest post I could find on this was over at A Gypsy’s Kiss.

    (NOTE: First, please forgive me if this has already been posted or discussed here – I looked, and didn’t see it. Second, I am not a regular participant and I’m unfamiliar with the political dynamic among members here, so if mentioning AGK is taboo, again sorry. Just trying to find Indulgence.)

      • He said the clues are consecutive.

        He said the clues are contiguous.

        He said WWWH is the first clue.

        Now, to figure out the last one, then assemble everything in between into some semblance of the other seven.

        So, is the last clue Look quickly down, your quest to cease? Or is it, Tarry Scant? Take the chest?

        • Jake F posted this list of clues and it is the same as mine, in our opinion, they are as follows:

          9 clues in the poem.

          1 – Begin it WWWH
          2 – And take it in the canyon down
          3 – Put in below the home of Brown
          4 – From there it’s no place for the meek
          5 – The end is ever drawing nigh
          6 – There’ll be no paddle up your creek
          7 – Just heavy loads
          8 – and water high
          9 – the blaze

          • Thanks for posting our 9 clues again.
            I knew you were the only one thinking these are valid as you said before tezla.

            As I have stated before, we should try to figure out which words or phrases in the poem may be clues before trying to marry these words or phrases to places.

            We now know 2 of them.

            Begin it where warm waters halt & the blaze.

            Fill in the gaps which we have & we got our 9 clues.

            Get the right hints from his books & lets say they are locations as he said about the marriage & we exclude CO & only one about NM Taos – gonzo.
            I think West Yellowstone is a place he liked best.

            I can hear DG singing in Hebgen.

        • Last clue is “the blaze” or “If you’ve been wise and found the blaze”

          Tarry scant is a hint telling you not to wait around & linger cause you will be cold & wet.

          Look quickly down?
          Think about this for a long time & you will know what quickly means.

          I think it means you will have to go into a cold pool of water & hold your breath which cannot be done slowly but only quickly.

          What difference would it make if you look slowly down & the chest was right below the blaze in the open.


          Quickly has a cold breathtaking meaning.

      • Jake, in the great scheme of things it really doesn’t matter……But, if you look at the time stamp on my post, it shows 1:10pm. That would be West coast time…..it was 3:10pm here in TX

        The post got lost and I messaged Goofy. He graciously found it later and put it up for me. The time stamp for Gypsy’s Kiss shows 6:53pm…..He posted it after he saw it here.

        But I’ll give him one thing…..damn his peeps are fast!! Next time I find something, I’ll keep it to myself or sell to the highest bidder!! 🙂

      • While the first clue may be WWWH, I believe the first stanza is one of the hints as to figuring out WWWH.

        I believe you need to use the hint “As I have gone alone in there, with my treasures bold” with another 1-2 hints in the book to understand WWWH

        • James,
          I look at the clues in the poem as places or things at places like the blaze.

          I can see hints in the 1st stanza but none that lead to understanding WWWH.

  35. Jake, in the great scheme of things it really doesn’t matter……But, if you look at the time stamp on my post, it shows 1:10pm. That would be West coast time…..it was 3:10pm here in TX

    The post got lost and I messaged Goofy. He graciously found it later and put it up for me. The time stamp for Gypsy’s Kiss shows 6:53pm…..He posted it after he saw it here.

    But I’ll give him one thing…..dang his peeps are fast!! Next time I find something, I’ll keep it to myself or sell to the highest bidder!!

    • You kidding me Loco,
      That was priceless.
      Don’t fall into the “pay for my search” category.

      I know you do it for the advancement of searchers to get more info getting closer & to be safer.

      It’s nice to have confirmation in a speculation world.

  36. OK, so this is where you begin & is the 1st clue.

    Now, let’s go back to the books & jog your memory on what he has stated that links this to that.

    My books are in The Gallatin National Forrest soaking up the Karma right now, so I have to go by memory.

    I remember where there cabin was & warm waters could halt there.
    I remember the bike ride 20 miles to Ojo & warm waters could halt there.
    Heck, warm waters could halt anywhere in between.

    If you got the books I would suggest you read again & see what you come up with in accordance of WWWH & don’t stretch it until it breaks.

    Could be the train station but I don’t think so. I am looking for something natural & I hope you are to.

    Bye bye NM & CO……

    • Here you go Jake, I’m a tryin! Even if all I’m succeeding in is failing, I’m a tryin..

      First stanza
      (As he towed logs across hebgen thinking what he’s gonna do with all his pay)

      (train station in West Y)

      (head north down hill as the madison flows)

      (Ten miles ish) see epilogue in tftw

      (Bakers Hole was Browns camp around turn of the century)

      ( the madi bobs in n out of YS ,consider J Meeks statement about YS, or perhaps brown trout are in hebgen lake but cant survive in the madi thus are meek compared to cutthroat idk)

      ( where the madi ends at hebgen, or referring to how the madi weaves in n out of the park boundary there?)

      ( because it’s a river not a creek and your going down stream or fens boat he towed logs with had a motor)

      ( refers to how fenns little boat would tow logs to the landing and the high water of the wake and going to fast would almost swamp his boat if he wasn’t careful on the throttle)

      (Beats me? Maybe the nickname of the truck they loaded the logs on at the landing?)

      (oh there it is)

      (Don’t stand around scratching your azz, these logs need to get loaded!)

      (here’s your pay Forrest, thanks for your help, enjoy the peaceful walk back to town)


      (I’d better hide this pay so my big brother don’t take it and buy another airplane or something)

      (Because Skippy will find it if it’s not in a good hiding spot)

      (It’s hard work being a lumberjack ain’t it!)

      Last stanza
      (It was worth the hard work and the cold, if your brave enough to go and cut wood then go do it and get your own pay!)

      • I like it very much aMp.
        Very good descrip of marrying the clues in the poem to places & things.

        You are bold to hang it out here unlike many other paranoid searchers.
        I have done the same as others but most won’t share until they draw the end of there place after many failed searches.

        (Don’t stand around scratching your azz, these logs need to get loaded!)
        LOL, get going & don’t stay here long.

        Great breakdown of the clues & hope your right in the end.

      • so wy is it ( the “i” must go) = sowyst.
        south Wyoming street
        south Wyoming state
        south west yellowstone
        Looks like Southwest to me.:)

      • Theres a few takes on in the wood.
        But what it isnt, is cutting trees down.
        There is a comparison to this in his book, and that translates to experience, and nothing actually being in or cutting down wood.

        • I hear what you are saying (I think), and agree that seems to be the takeaway in the above story. But there’s a picture in the back of TTOTC that has troubled the back of my mind since I first read and re-read my copy (about a year and a half now?)… a man with his foot propped on what appears to be the last tree he cut down, ALL the trees have been cut down. With the trees gone, there is a clear view of the dove-on-the-moon, who seems to be watching him. To me it seems as though he is resting and maybe thinking, “There, a job well done.” Or maybe I’m overlaying my own attitudes onto the picture because I see so much clearcutting of entire mountains around here. And no, I don’t think it’s just “trees” being referenced there. My opinion only.

          • At the start, Fenn ponders how the future would be. I see this as a reflection of that.

  37. Yah that Browns camp took some diggin, seen it on a old map from 1910ish way before it was a dump or campground

  38. Seems I read something about boarders somewhere in all the blogs – Don’t recall if it was a bloggers post or something Mr. Fenn Mentioned –
    Anyone Else recall this ? That could point me back to it ?
    Thanks !

    • Was a vlog, the guy that foes the coffee pot I believe, the comment was regarding how many times “border” is mentioned in the book as though its a hint.
      I think thats to the point of reading way too much into things.

      • Thanks ML – Mentioned in the book – (That I don’t have) –
        Couldn’t remember if it was mentioned as a Quote from FF !
        Just stumbled onto this a week ago – spent 3 days reading Dal’s backlog of posts (and the Poem many times) -Plus, A GypsyKiss’s posts an vlogs –
        4th day was drooling over maps much like I did for TLDGM – (But that’s TFTW 4 Me to check out) – and wrote 2 poems for FF . . .
        Came up with an armchair solve that I’ve been refining – Seems 90% good to me ! – Just got to make that BOTG Trip to check it out N see !
        Was something in a travel map that struck the Boarder note – Was just seein if it fit in somehow .

        • If it came easy, think of 5 more possible locations. The easy ones have been picked over.
          Not saying don’t try it, just have another in case. If you make a trip for one and its a bust youll be kickin yourself if only.

          • Eh . . . Not planning to spend a Lot of Time Away, but I do have a few other Locations picked out that I’m researching –
            And My First – Didn’t come as Easy as You may think !
            It’s just Facts that I have gleaned make My First “Golden Goose” Chase a Prime Target for Me !
            Mostly it’s all just for fun and Enjoyment an Pictures galore for Me and a Friend !
            Our Vacations are coming up in Aug – an We wanted a “Get Outa Dodge” week – an Enjoy Sightseeing !
            Whether We find any Artifact or not – Eh . . . Doesn’t really matter . . .
            As You Say – a lot of areas have been picked over already . . . ‘Bout like the Diamond quarry !
            This is just a little Tour for the Vacation to Somewhere North of Santa Fe – The Grand Canyon and The Meteor Crater For Us !
            Then it’s Back to the same old grind till Next year . . .

  39. Warm water halts at …………’Truth.’ (The researching of WWWH has been, IMO, a spiritually rewarding one.)


  40. For ‘warm waters halt’ to mean stop… how can merging waters have anything to do with stopping? If stop is the true usage of halt in the poem, shouldn’t that mean the flow of waters is prevented in some form or another?
    We know we can eliminate a dam… even a beaver dam… and I would assume any obstruction that would cause water to stop might not be a viable thought. [ but that assumption is only valid if, the cause by natural events are also considered a dam as well ~ shifting of land for example ].

    Regardless of where the first clue is… how can we decipher what the first clue refers to, if we only use halt as to mean stop…
    Are we to understand that warm waters are prevented in some way of their flow? or is it possible that, the stopping, is preventing the warm part? As in, warm is now no longer warm.

    For example; Never Summer Mountains… as the place to start?

    We also have the comment that there are many wwwh in the RM’s “and nearly all are N of SF.”
    That should mean, whatever wwh refers to as a clue, some representation of that clue must exist below SF as well, right? Another words… wwwh might not be something exclusive to mountains or be affiliated with something that is only north of SF. NM. exclusively.

    per the example above, would kill the thought of wwwh as the first clue to be that location. Oh! sure fenn has told us warm to him means comfortable… so are we looking for a place “on a map” where waters stop being comfortable?
    I think the real question to be asked is… what is the significance of the correct wwwh referenced in the poem.. vs.. all the same/many references north or south of SF NM?

    If halt’s usage is to only mean stop, line of thinking. What is actually stopping?

    • Hello Seeker. While reading and thinking of what you had to say, perhaps when “warm waters halt” at warm meaning “comfortable,” many have associated it to mean the waters have turned cold, which is a very good possibility. What if “warm waters halt” is the opposite, where the waters are boiling/scalding, which still falls into ” where warm (comfortable) waters halt”? I’m probably going in the wrong direction with this line of thinking.

      • PD,
        Your thinking that warm ‘stops’ being warm or warm as ‘stops’ being comfortable. [ which is really a hard thing to think about to what a comfortable level of warm is ]
        So, how do we find something that is no longer comfortable or ‘stops’ being comfortable on a map… that is represented north and south of SF?

        • @Seeker I think you overthink the poem. You do not need WWWH just follow the path. You do not need to understand it. Just let the poem guide you. Forget about what the clues may be for they are not what they seem but what they are.RC

          • Ok, So explain to me why fenn says we need to nail down the first clue or stay home? If, as you say; “You do not need WWWH just follow the path.”

            Tell my why, when fenn has stated the first clue is actually wwwh, you basically tell all to ignore what he said?

            Can you explain why we’re told to follow the clues in the poem and that there is no other way?

            Really RC, can you explain any of your comments with some kind of example, thought process, idea, theory… anything? anything at all??
            Other than basically saying… don’t listen to fenn, just listen to you…

        • Seeker, with the story of Mr. Fenn swimming in the nude, and he shifted his body to colder water, warm halted to cold. If the water went from warm (comfortable) to hot (boiling/scalding), would warm waters halt? With this line of thinking, and to find a place on a map, I could point to the Boiling River. Again, I’m offering a thought to where many have thought “where warm waters halt” is something related to switching to cold water(s), what if it was in the opposite direction of comfort?

          • I get the concept PD. I’m trying to think of how we, not only figure out what wwh refers to in a general sense. But how do we conclude which type of interpretation is correct and also locate that single one and only or if it is single at all. That is the attempt.

            Or taking it a step further… while wwwh is the first, is there another clue that must be known… ex. heavy loads or water high, or hob or in the wood or tired and week…. The explains exactly which warm waters the first clue refers to. JDA’s Architect circle is not a bad Idea for this line of thinking… I’m just not sure if that is the way to go about it, but at least I put some thought to it…

            We can say the same for the blaze… there are billions… yet aren’t we to have some thought of reasoning that the poem explains what the blaze refers to? or do we just stumble upon it when we get close enough.

            We are told the poem is a blueprint… told the poem is a map. Told GE “and/or” a good map are good tools/useful references.. and … told all the information to find the chest is in the poem.
            Where in the poem tells us… out of all those wwwh possibilities what warm waters are and where? It doesn’t appear to be in that line of the poem?
            Or for that matter, what the blaze actually is.

            There are only three options I can think of that give us the correct info with out guessing…
            The poem itself contains just clues, and we need to book to figure out the answers. [ and suggested tools to use]
            Or the poem is self contained [ answers included ] and the book is just helpful. [ a guide for thought only]
            Or No matter how we decipher the clues… we need further information on site. [ because those who decipher the first clues got there somehow and went right by everything else ].

            So when I think about the first clue… I don’t see how…” begin it where warm waters halt..” to be a single possible answer to a physical starting point without something telling us exactly what that single point actually is.

            So I agree with RC’s fortune cookie post, that we need to allow the poem to explain it… I’m just actually trying to discuss the process of doing just that.

          • I believe it is the first stanza that points to a correct WWWH. I have 2 maybe 3 locations it could be based on that. Like Indy I cannot get to the third clue by using a map though. Part of me thinks that if I was able to find the 3rd clue on the map then I would be form fitting clues to fit a solve and I am probably on the wrong track. I’ll check it out my spots in person in a few weeks.

    • Seeker re your question of how can water “stop” (halt) if not by a dam. Consider this:

      Let’s say that No Name Creek originates at a hot spring. Its warm waters flow downhill, and eventually merge with the Something River.
      From the point of their convergence on, as an entity, the waters of No Name Creek halt, or cease to exist. Those waters now become known as the waters of the Something River.
      At each point where waters join the waters of the Something River, those names are not added to the River. It does not become the No Name Creek/Something River etc.
      Therefore; at the point of convergence, No Name Creek, in effect, Halts, or ceases to exist as an entity.

      How does one choose the correct wwwh, among the thousands, most of which are north of SF? Look to the other lines of the poem. Look to stanza #6, I think that it tells you EXACTLY which area to look in.

      This seems to work for me, What do you think Seeker? JDA

      • JDA,
        I follow your idea… But not unlike the oceans of the world are all one in the same… We name them for easy reference only.
        Are not all flowing water the same no matter the size or amount of flow?

        Does the name or no name stop the waters as the meaning of halt to mean stop? What you’re saying is… The name is the only thing that stops…

        Per the answer is within the poem and where for wwwh is still up in the air. Might it be possible the the canyon give the location of the correct we? Maybe there is more than one wwh or even many… But we need to know which canyon give us the correct direction, line of thinking. So nailing down the correct wwwh is critical even if we can surmise the right canyon area.

        • Seeker;

          As I said, for me, I found a clue in stanza #6 (in the wood) that told me the correct area to look in for my wwwh. Why does Forrest say “WARM” water’s halt? Is this a clue or hint? I am not sure, but it is worth pondering…. and as you say, maybe there is a hint or clue in the “canyon” that will help confirm that we have found the correst wwwh. Decisions, decisions, decisions! JDA

          • I believe “warm waters” is a legal term of art. But then again, as a lawyer, I believe just about everything is a legal term of art. For example, the larger rivers of Colorado are considered “warm waters.”

      • I agree JD, based on my nagging theory that the clues in the poem are references matched to stories of the book.

        I’ve always felt that Fenn’s statement on the jacket of the book tell a lot. I think he started to write the book to include clues in the stories, but at some point, found the attempt interfered with the literature of the tale and decided the poem was sufficient by itself. I think there are vestiges of clues in the stories… for example: when the NAME of a river halts as it merges with a larger river…. it is expressed as “I figured that If it weren’t for my NAME, I wouldn’t have anything at all.” in the ‘Jump Start’ chapter. I also think that face/can opener thing adds to a description of that river.

        As I read the stories, I ask why did he include this part. Catch a metaphor and ride the wave.

        • OS2,

          Two Creeks that I posted quite awhile back, and in particular located in Montana, (Powell County), come to mind. Both are on Public Property and are ‘streams’….and both are near Helmville, MT.

          “Yourname Creek

          “McElwain Creek” ( Interesting name).

          Elevation locations might not equate, however, worth a look, IMO.

          If interested, a Link follows:



          • Thanks for your thoughtful reply SL, but ‘name’ (the word) was not what I had in mind, I think here he is saying to follow something that has a name. I’ve had a strong feeling since first reading TTOTC that Fenn has laid out a travel path skipping through the chapters. In FIRST GRADE he tells us to start at an entry site, the door/sign hint. (It relates to the ‘I, alone’ in Stanza 1). After the door/gateway, in BIDDIES, he tells us to to cross something… step over the crack. In JUMP START, there are multi-choices, legs to be crossed, they all hint of hidden riches, but follow a named one. In BESSIE… he is traversing a cow meadow, likely on a dirt road. Well, you get the idea. Its one of my imaginary paths from my armchair.

          • Thank you for your kind reply. OS2.

            Imaginary paths can lead to some of the most remarkable paths!

          • OS2
            The cow meadow plays right into my 2nd solve…hopefully I’ll be able to check 1 & 2 out soon before someone beats me to them. Both are not far from each other.

          • Lyle, when you are in the cow meadow, you might see a distant highway, RR tracks, river shimmery in the sun … along which trucks or boxcars or boats move slowly like ‘wet sock on a line’. Clever imagery may be subtle hints. My first YSNP theory started at the Roosevelt arch (the doorway) and the line of cars starting & stopping through the Biddies check point. Good luck.

      • JDA, in your example, No Name Creek would be
        “disappearing” if it ceases to exist. I don’t think that
        the word “halt” would apply in that case. Just my
        opinion, my friend. I don’t have the TC in my
        possession. But in a couple months, I expect to.
        Good luck to you in your solving and searching.
        All IMO.

        • How can it be “disappearing”? It’s waters do not disappear, they JOIN the waters of Something River. It is the NAME that ceases to exist, or halts. We each have our own perspective on it though don’t we? Good luck to Ya’ JDA

          • You’re right about the NAME ceasing to
            exist — or DISAPPEARING. But the
            NAME doesn’t halt, as it wasn’t moving.
            Have you looked up “halt” in a dictionary?
            If you have, please show me where the
            word “halt” means “join”.

            All IMO. Good luck to ya.

        • Could “halt” refer to people? WWWH people? Something else to ponder on this day of pondering.

    • i agree with Blex, Seeker – and will attempt an ‘on-topic’ reply

      re: halt of water flow/temperature – mine was a dormant geyser
      re: “and nearly all are N of SF” – suggests that wwwh is a common (geographical?) occurrence, esp in steeper mountainous regions
      re: ‘warm means comfortable’ – have you considered the idea of soft vs. hard (mineral) water-ways in the RM’s?

      i also considered Forrests “bigger picture/prudent to do a little investigating about higher things” comments, to be a poss ref to your continental divide, where warm cumulus clouds dump their rains and continue forth as frosty cirrus clouds, maybe?
      ..not sure of the official Latin names tho – sorry ’bout that Zap 🙁

      i’m convinced tho, that the poem is entirely logical – otherwise why would we ‘kick ourselves’ post-knowing-the-solution?

      ..i mean, i’m def in the ’15years to hide something in plain sight’ camp – esp given how stubborn ‘simple logic’ can be at times 🙂

      • CH, I agree that there is a simple logic solution and sometimes I wonder how surprised Forrest is that the treasure chest has still not been found yet.

        (I’m trying my best, Forrest! Really! I just came up with a “Plan C” for my next search! Give me a coupla more weeks! This is my first season of BOTG searching and I’m doing me best!)

      • CH,
        Staying in the parameters of the big picture… the CD works well… but, not if the word halt only means stop. We would need to twist / bend the word ‘stop’ to equate to one meaning of halt as temporary or brief.

        Example; while marching, an order is given to halt… the motion [ which ever direction the marcher is going, let say forwards ] comes to a stop. But if we think that is all there is, ok.

        Yet, WhatIF the stopping or halt of the movement is needed, or even forced, for a change in direct? [ an order of, left turn face, line of thinking ]… in the case of the poem [and CD] the waters movement is about the same… whether vertical to horizontal [ such as rain fall ] or horizontal to vertical [as to flowing water, elevation drop, line of thinking] … making the stop / halt temporary, for the reason of directional movement… The waters are stopped in their original direction and force [ by what ever means ] to change direction… hence; stopping the ‘original direction’ of movement… but not actually stopping altogether.

        The big picture effect / thought here is all about the flow of the waters direction… such as, And take it in the canyon down [halting the “directional” flow.] My one thought is, wwwh is the big picture, the first clue, the need to know where to begin line of thinking… but is it the first physical location where we start from on our physical journey?

        So here’s a thought; fenn said he followed the clues… we’re told to look at GE and/or maps. [ even though fenn knows where the chest lays in wait… ] did fenn physically follow all the clues OR let the clues lead him, as we are told to do, by the poem? [forget about writing the clues… I’m only talking about the execution of the process involved].

        The thought, theory, idea is that… are we looking for wwwh as a singular place to physically begin only? or is another clue that places it all together in the thought of the big picture as a whole. Such as hoB?

        LOL… But my thoughts don’t end there [ big surprise, right? ] In this Q&A fenn made the statement; [ in part ]
        Q~ Who else knows where the treasure is buried?
        A~ [ again, in part ] And I can tell you an 80-year-old man is not going to make a trip into a canyon, then come up and go down again. As for who else knows, I’m the only one. My wife doesn’t know.

        If we add other comments, such as fenn’s thoughts of “down the road” 100 years, 1000 years, even 10,000 years… What is the big picture all about???

        lol.. I should have place a warning prior to my post… enter at your own risk.

        Something is missing in our thought process.. maybe that “important possibility” thing that apparently nobody is thinking about.
        That is my attempt here… and the reason for discussing how the word halt is used, the way fenn may have intended.
        How the word warm effects a line of thought.
        Why is ‘waters’ use in this section of the poem but later ‘water’ is singular.
        What actually is “And take it in…”[ IMO it was not fenn going up and down twice in one afternoon, I highly doubt we are being told to either ]. And how does it all reflect to fenn’s thought of the big picture..?.. with that thought of… “what took me so long?”

        • Seeker – i almost nearly managed to read all of your post for once, and given that ‘change is the only one constant in this universe’ (according to cleverer people than me) then i’m not left with much option but to agree with your ideology of what ‘halt’ means, temporary or otherwise..

          but ‘waters halt’ strikes me as simply meaning a plural cessation, and ‘water high’ as a singular event

          ( ..albeit, not entirely sure of their Latin translations tho – but if ya willing to fund another lunar hunt, i’m pretty sure i could easily locate Zap for ya.. ? )

          [note to self: immediately speed-dial Richard Branson ..again]

    • I can see 2 ways of defining it. Either the warm waters
      stop their motion — either temporarily or permanently –, or
      they “halt” something/somebody. Here’s an example of how
      somebody could be “halted” by something like a view:
      “I was halted by the first appearance of the magnificent
      mountain before me.” IMO.

    • Since waters is plural could it mean there is an area of warm waters and once you are away from that area or general vicinity they have halted or ceased to exist as a group.

  41. Whether it’s the warm waters stopping their motion, or “causing” people
    to stop THEIR motion, there is a place in the Rocky Mountains that is
    well-known for both/either of these happening. This is one reason that I’ve
    been preaching for so long that searchers should show the poem to some
    children. Children are less likely to over-think the poem, thereby making
    the solve more difficult than it needs to be. All IMO.

    • Tightfocus ~ ‘…there is a place in the Rocky Mountains that is well-known for both/either of these happening.”

      You talk about children reading the poem… and this ‘well-known’ place. Can you tells us where this place is that children would know of?
      Because your comment seem to relate to most children and adults as knowing of this place.. [ even kids from NYC, FL, Alaska or Little Indy?].

        • In a similar vein, the UFO Watchtower in the San Luis Valle in Colorado claims many vortices also. The valle is also famous for cattle mutilations, hot springs, alligator wrestling, and occasional Bigfoot sightings. Gotta love it.

          • I just thought this at one point when thinking of WWWH- Magnetic Gravitational Perturbation of Water lol. Sounds like special knowledge but in visual seeing this in action it is a simple observation though. Water flow being effected by a magnetic polarization effect sometimes seen in areas of moving water due to natural magnetic influences of some minerals. In seeing this happen , it looks as though water is halted in its flow with no apparent visible physical reasoning. Usually in highly electric water due to fast moving in serpentine shape canals with strong magnetic ores.

            When looking in Montana and I found this mystery magnetic vortex house in GNP , it made me thing of this possibility for WWWH lol. I really doubt it but it was an interesting research. Nodes and Nulls.

      • Seeker: the most obvious answer is Yellowstone, and more specifically Old Faithful. That is one place in the Rockies that children would know. In fact, it’s probably the ONLY place in the Rockies that most children would know.

        • Fenn has been known to explain wwwh is not a region.. Yellowstone is a region.

          LOL… I won’t even get into the comment about showing a child… Been there done that.

          But just for grins… I have to wonder what most folks here think the age statue is for a child.

          • Seeker, from ages 5-12.

            Newborn, infant, toddler…Birth to 5 yrs.

            Child…5-12 years.

            Teenager, etc.

          • Seeker, somehow I think everything in regards to land has borders. Homes, cities/towns/country, counties, forests/wilderness, etc.. Look at a map of a forest and you’ll see boundaries.

            This is an opinion, offered as a thought.

          • Seeker, do you have a quote from f about WWWH not being associated with a region?

          • PD,
            So kindergartner could help with the poem?
            Not unlike fenn needed to clarify the comment, that searchers even repeat as fact to day, .. a child could walk right up to the chest … some should look closer at the supposed comment about, that many like, a child and the poem.

            As to your comment about borders… I too think there is reference to them as well. But, like everything else in the poem… the reader sees different meaning/ways of borders and what they might mean.

            One definition of ‘end’ means boundary or border.
            Others like the idea of borders to mean the bookstore and we need one of the two books to solve the poem.

            Just for fun, what ideas do you have on borders used in the poem? Actual lines on a map type thinking or something else?

          • Hello Seeker. There are definitely kindergartners who are quite smart. Their ages are usually around five to six years old, which falls into the range I had given. As for boundaries/borders and the poem, this is a tough one pinpoint, but I can give generic examples. If one feels it’s at a specific mountain, it has boundaries. There’s the obvious if someone crosses from one state into another. For me, another example would be a canyon. If we’re to look at a map to figure out the poem, and it’s in nature, then there will be boundaries.

            This is an opinion, offered as a thought.

          • Seeker, I tried to explain, but it didn’t post. Perhaps it’ll show up later.

        • Yes, Seeker: Yellowstone is a region — a rather broad one. But WWWH is a distinct spot (no, not Old Faithful). Without the first stanza, WWWH will remain elusive.

          • Zap,
            Clues are in consecutive order, Clues are contiguous [ whether in the poem and/or in the field ].
            The line; Begin it where warm waters halt… doesn’t seem to give us an answer or a single location.
            You say that information is in stanza 1, ok… But does that information have to be?
            We know clue 1 is wwwh. But seriously, does the information in the poem that explains something about a clue, have to be prior to it?

            I mean [ stanza 1], it can’t be considered a clue, right… otherwise that would be considered the first clue.
            So if information is useful for a clue… what rule have we heard about that said, it must be prior to a known clue?

            For that matter… and having all the information to find the chest within the poem… then each helpful piece of information must be prior to the actual clue… following your thoughts about stanza 1 “without the first stanza, wwwh will remain elusive.”

            That is only a thought… just like the thought that stanza 5 could hold the information to where wwh is and refers to.

          • I would not have been surprised if stanza 1 in it’s entirety would have been considered by f as a clue. Since it was not then it helps me understand what a clue is to him. A clue is an actual location or instructions. Stanza 1 points to the location but is not as specific as the actual clues.

          • Hi Seeker,

            “Clues are in consecutive order, Clues are contiguous [ whether in the poem and/or in the field ].”

            I’m good with that.

            “The line; Begin it where warm waters halt… doesn’t seem to give us an answer or a single location.”

            Also, agreed. Utterly unsolvable without additional information.

            “You say that information is in stanza 1, ok… But does that information have to be?”

            Yes I do, and no it didn’t have to be. Forrest has placed no restrictions on himself as far as the ordering of his hints. For instance, IMO, stanza #1 contains quite a bit more than just a huge hint to WWWH.

            “We know clue 1 is wwwh. But seriously, does the information in the poem that explains something about a clue, have to be prior to it?”

            Again, it does not. In fact, in the case of WWWH, there are hints in the poem both before AND after line 5 — still in my opinion, of course. I suspect Forrest recognizes the value of redundancy.

            “I mean [ stanza 1], it can’t be considered a clue, right… otherwise that would be considered the first clue.”

            No argument. I think the info in the first stanza is pretty substantial, so I was on the fence about whether Forrest considered it a clue or just a hint. Semantics, semantics. At least the New Zealand interview helped better constrain Forrest’s hint vs. clue dividing line.

            “For that matter… and having all the information to find the chest within the poem… then each helpful piece of information must be prior to the actual clue… following your thoughts about stanza 1 “without the first stanza, wwwh will remain elusive.”

            No — you are reading too much into my statement. The hints can be anywhere in the poem, their order scrambled. And in fact, by your definition of “where” within the poem (by ordinary reading), the location of at least one hint is not even definable.

      • “Can you tells us where this place is that children would know of?”

        I love your question there Seeker. I wish I had the answer.

        An Indian Scout and A Saint

      • Ryan D – obviously you didn’t read much Dr Suess, in your ‘all-too-brief’ youth (?)

        please don’t quote me tho.. but i’m pretty sure he wrote ‘lotsa-lotsa’ words 🙂

    • frank,

      Your statement is quite terse. Tell us why you have made this statement. Provide some support for your statement. Enlighten us of your thought process.

          • I agree with you, pdenver. Frank is a good guy and I’m a big fan, I always like his posts.

          • Thanks for your response pdenver,

            Yes, I can be a smartass… but in this case, I was merely trying to get frank to expand on his ideas, thoughts, and mental processes.

            There is nothing worse on blog such as this than people spewing random thoughts without support of their statements.

            I am simply trying to encourage everyone to “say what you think” … and follow that with “why you are saying what you think”.

            It’s part of the “effective” communication process.

            My intentions were not o be negative… and if they seemed that way, I apologize…

            Best regards,


      • fennatical- my comment was to try to get people to think for them selves with out me giving you the whole answer or my thoughts – I didn’t mean to put such a heavy load on you – cheers

        • Thanks for your response frank,

          I apologize for sounding negative… I didn’t mean to express negativity. I agree that everyone should express their opinions, but with support for their statements… Best to you! And to all searchers!

          Best regards,

  42. lol thanks pdenver and Jeannie- you always have nice things to say about me Jeannie thank you – you cant always say what you want to say so I look for other ways to say it with out giving to much away- so wwwh could also mean where warm waters gathers and to me that would be a large body of water- and it does not have to be warm when it gets there it will get warm with time – so wwwh its where water gathers imo – again thanks pdenver and jennie——–frank

  43. Looking for your thoughts;

    What if you read ……….Begin it where warm waters halt ………

    as …..Begin it where cold waters start……………

    I know it’s messing with the poem, I’m just wondering if it would get a searcher to the same spot.

    • Please accept my sarcasm as a suggestion that you don’t
      mess with the poem.

      What if you read the first line as “Go to Colorado and smoke
      whatever is legal there” . . . ? Would it get a searcher to the same spot?

      Jeez, Louise . . . I mean Jim. You could use Dr. Seuss’s
      book “The Cat In The Hat” if you prefer, instead of FF’s poem. It’s all up to you. Nobody is FORCING you to be
      successful — or even REASONABLE in your solving

      If you make it as far as the Rockies, I genuinely hope that
      you don’t drown in a river there.

      The above is my opinion. Yours may differ.

      • Tighterfocus,
        So New and Old, WWWh, Heavy loads and Water high, Tarry scant with marvel gaze, effort worth the cold… don’t have a connection? I mean, just because the first clues is wwh… nothing in stanza one can help explain what that wwwh might be, or stanza 5 or 6?

        Just how are we supposed to find wwwh? The book? a map? GE? … seems to me that cold and warm could very well be related to ‘where’ we need to begin.. if we know where to start.

        LOL~ messing with the poem… isn’t job one to find “where” it is the clues are, then use the clues to find the chest?
        Or are we supposed search every reference that could be wwwh on a map…

        • Seeker, I’ll try to answer you without being
          cynical, rude, etc. It’s not always easy for me.

          Here are some methods/options that make
          sense to me.

          1) Show the poem to children (lots of them,
          but only 1 at a time).

          2) If that’s not convenient enough for you,
          try to think like a child. But not a child of
          today. Put yourself in FF’s shoes . . . when
          he was 13. That would be about 1943. This
          is important, because it could hint at an
          item in American culture that was related
          to this treasure hunt.

          3) Use a dictionary to look up ALL 4 of the following words: “where”, “warm”, “waters”,
          and “halt”. Be honest. Have you done this?
          I have. If you don’t put forth the effort, don’t
          expect the reward(s).

          4) Take a guess. When you have one, try
          connecting the “tentative” solution to that
          clue to the NEXT clue. But stay focused
          on one clue at a time.

          Searchers have mentioned different possibilities for a place “where warm waters halt”. These possibilities include — and I have also considered each, in turn :

          A place where a sentry makes visitors halt
          (something like Los Alamos National Lab).
          The sentry halts the visitors. Thus the
          visitors are the “warm waters”. Alternately,
          since several sentries work there, since
          the sentries “halt” people, the sentries may
          be the “warm waters” that “do” the halting
          (of someone or something — such as a
          vehicle). Either way, this could point to
          LANL — or a similar facility. Sandia National
          Labs is near Albuquerque, and would also
          have guards/sentries.

          If people can be considered “warm waters”,
          then any place where they halt might be a
          candidate. Broadly speaking, this is too
          general, and COULD mean any stop sign
          or traffic signal light. It (by the same
          definition) could mean where travelers
          gather to “halt” and look at something (scenic, for example). I like this better than
          stop signs.

          Before this hunt, I never considered “waters” to be people . . . and still don’t like to do so. So I think FF doesn’t mean “people” when
          he says “waters”.

          Other possibilities mentioned include tears,
          of course. In that case, WWWH could be
          any of several graveyards, cemeteries,
          memorial locations (there are several
          well-known ones in the Rockies), or even
          churches . . . where people get married, and
          the tears are supposed to be tears of joy.

          Urine has been mentioned, of course, but
          it’s too common, IMO, to be what FF had in

          Hot springs have been considered.

          Geysers have been considered.

          Ground water — freezing into ice — has been

          Too many searchers don’t know what “halt”
          means. This is why I have been urging folks
          to use a dictionary. I’m tired of repeating
          myself, but since my typing fingers are
          warmed up, I’ll repeat myself. “Halt” does
          NOT mean “cool off”. I don’t guess that
          repetition will penetrate any too-thick skulls,
          but I hope your skull isn’t too thick.

          I don’t want to give any help that might result
          in someone getting to the TC before me, so
          please understand my reluctance to say
          too much at this time.

          Much of the solve is going to involve guessing and changing one’s guess(es). This is what the searchers experience. Welcome to it all.

          The above is my opinion.

          • ….and still yet another searcher dismisses (because it was not included as a viable place)…..the “edge of civilization” as WWH.


            Funny as it is….no one seems to explain why they do dismiss it.


            Best of luck to all.

          • Tighterfocus,

            I just read this… must have missed it before…
            1. Won’t even get into it again, only to say “Do kids have an advantage?”_________ .

            2. That’s not a new thought. Fenn relates to his 13 yr. old self… and has stated he was born a hundred years to late. But thanks for the heads up, anyway.

            3. Words? meaning? Multiple meanings and usages? Really?! Naaah… it straightforwards, right? Ya can skip the dictionary and google… who would bother?
            “I looked up words and definition of words and changed them, went back and rebooted… it {poem} out exactly like I wanted.”

            4. Um err… what can I say? Better yet, I won’t say anything. I’ll just repeat this…
            “The most common mistake that I see searchers make is that they underestimate the importance of the first clue. If you don’t have that one nailed down you might as well stay home and play Canasta.” f

            5. Did you know Halt means; to hold?

        • tighterfocus

          don’t worry, you certainly haven’t conveyed any sense of sarcasm nor cynicism what-so-ever ..no honestly ( ..no, seriously!)

          i just have two simple questions;
          – who’s this mysterious Dr. Suess guy?
          – how much does he secretly ‘know’?
          – and is he susceptible to water-boarding?

          ‘have a plank and 20gal of water – will travel’

    • ****** Jim wrote – “What if you read ……….Begin it where warm waters halt ……… as …..Begin it where cold waters start……………” ******

      Yes, I’ve considered that in relation to my favorite Chase area. Yet another way to say it might be

      *** Begin it where trout fishing begins ***

      Below is a suggestive description about the Yampa River (from the Colorado Fishing Network website):

      “The flyfishing varies as much as the terrain. The Upper Yampa holds cold-water species whereas warm-water species are found downstream AT RIVER’S END [emphasis added]. Somewhere in-between, the two meet with opportunity to fish for trout and pike in the same river spot.”

      The Yampa River ends where it joins the Green at Echo Park in Dinosaur Nat’l Monument. The Green there is fed by cool water released from Flaming Gorge Reservoir, so warm-water fishing on the lower Yampa gives way to cold-water fishing on the Green.


      • I really love this theory Jake. After fly fishing for trout in Yellowstone I have been considering something similar. Maybe I shouldn’t let ff’s post treasure hide comments get in the way but when I think about when he says that a child can figure it out I have doubts about a child knowing about warm and cold water as it relates to fish.

        • I don’t disagree, Aaron, and don’t use that particular one myself – just one of those shiny bits picked up, looked over, and stashed in the cigar box.

          (Though if the line were “Begin it where four wheelers halt” we’d probably be safe imagining backcountry motor vehicles or their operators. 🙂 )

          I do like the energy that comes from the kind of lateral thinking Jim’s question exhibited, so threw a chip on the table to maybe keep the wheel spinning.


          • JAKe…I agree that Jim has brought a very important facet to the table. The energy is a bit misdirected perhaps…but the idea is worth looking at.
            My reason for believing that, is in relation to the Poem itself rather than that one particular line. Good on you for noticing.

    • Jim, that is something that I have considered as well. It’s an interesting angle and would make complete sense. As for messing with the poem, I’m unsure, too. If you consider “everything” is the absence of “nothing” and “nothing” is the absence of “everything”. It’s a paradox. Mr Fenn may have done this in his poem.

    • Begin it where cold waters start
      And take it in the canyon up

      Nah, don’t think so.

      • Sparrow,
        If halt means stop… how can waters that stop, take it in the canyon down… Nah, don’t think so.

        • JDA—-

          Halt can mean a temporary stop before beginning again. It can also mean indecision, as in the Bible “why halt ye between two opinions?”. It can also refer to someone walking with a limp— or something being slowed down. Take your choice. 🙂

          • Sparrow;

            How is a temporary halt different than a full stop?

            How can “indecision” relate to warm raters? Do waters think?

            Same question for the “limp” definition – how can this relate to warm waters?

            You came up with different definitions – but – can any apply to the poem? I think not. Good luck anyway. JDA

          • A temporary stop in motion for change in direction of movement… a waterfall for example ~ horizontal movement to a vertical movement and resume a horizontal movement.

            Bible verses will not assist… so you can dismiss. But Indecision might be an inability to move at a quick pace or same pace or flow

            Limp as in falter or delay, be detained or linger longer than usual or prevent a flows progress to slow.

            Halt allows different usages of meanings… Stop ‘prevents’ those usages need or implied.

          • JDA—

            No, waters can’t think. However, have you ever heard someone say “strange weather we’re having, it can’t decide whether to rain or not”?

            Or “that Creek can’t seem to decide whether to go to the right or the left”

            As far as “limping”– yes– a nice flowing stream can be made by certain factors to turn into a Creek which is “limping along” due to an impediment.
            Please go back in to Forrest’s discussion with the middle school kids. One of them asks him why he used halt at the end of the sentence.
            The answer Forrest gives is quite interesting.

          • I found the question I was referring to JDA.
            One of the kids asks “Is there a specific reason that “halt” and “walk” do not follow the rhyme scheme?”
            Forrest answers: “Yes, I was limited by my ability”.

            Think about that. To be “halt” is a disability. Is Forrest’s answer to the kid a hint at how we should definitely “halt”?

  44. J A Kraven / JAKe and Bob Miller

    I guess I was not clear on the difference of warm waters halting and cold waters starting.

    Some people consider where warm waters halt as being at a point almost to the Canadian boarder several billion years ago as opposed to the Gulf of Mexico as it is now. I do think you would end up in the same spot if the line read where cold waters start. This is one example.

    The glaciers once cover a large area of North America. This could be and example of where the cold waters started. But, I do not believe it would qualify as where the warm waters halt. This could be a second example.

    Would they both, warm halting and cold starting, have apply to the same point or location?

    • One way of looking at it – When the warm waters of earth halted, it was the beginning of the ice age that lasted between 1.8 million years ago, up until 11,700 . The earth then began to warm again, and the glaciers retreated. Man crossed over from Asia about 9,000 years ago, after the glaciers began to retreat.

      • Seeker, was that a typo? Did you mean “villions”,
        or perhaps “nillions”?

        . . . oops — I almost forgot that this thread is supposed to be related to the treasure hunt. So here is some related stuff:

        Maybe warm waters (i.e., geothermally-heated rivers) “halt” people by “inviting” them to tarry,
        scantily clad, for a while — for a nice bath. There (conceivably) could be hundreds of such places along these rivers, in the mountains north of Santa Fe. IMO.

  45. Hi JDA – I think that almost all searchers complicate WWWH. It’s not easy to figure out, but it’s not overly complicated involving history. Remember geography is valuable. iMO.

    • The Ice Age isn’t so much about history HMA, it IS about geography. The glaciers carved the valleys, dug the lakes, deposited the moraines created scree fields. All geological – not historical HMA. Made much of the USA into what you see today.. JDA

      • Where did the Great Lakes come from? Where did the Mississippi, Missouri, and Ohio river valleys come from?
        Glaciers from the Ice Age – that is where. A history book didn’t create them – acts of nature did – geology did. JDA

        • They asked a question if SR FENN used another means of transport and he did not respond, it is good to find out that he used another means of transport, I used a different method in this embroidery 20 degrees for OSIER colorado and guesses the line steam train Line 64 now I understand why the FENN said that the intersecting lines means the Colorado line and the new Mexico, I also noticed in a report that it says the treasure is north of santa fe between Mexico and Colorado (there are 11 lines that The train crosses the new Mexico and Colorado) there is also a google guide with lots of information on these lines of passage between altitude and some more dishes with letters and numbers, I paid attention in the reports and speeches of your fenn And my opinion is colorado and New Mexico no more than 12 my, Have your doubts reading the book and you will understand each one in a way, I hope this helps all the hunters …

    • Hi Hear Me All….it isn’t that complicated when you refer to WWH is the “edge of civilization”.

      The complicated part is trying to decide where.


      Good luck to you in your search.

      • Here is a Fenn statement that is on Tarryscant.com:

        There are many places in the Rocky Mountains where warm waters halt, and nearly all of them are north of Santa Fe.

        I have concluded, based on this statement, that where warm waters halt must be a hot spring.

        • And, I believe that “it” in the second stanza means “your search”. So, “begin it” becomes “begin your search” and “take it” becomes “take your search”

          • Yep…I also agree “it” refers to “the hunt”, but only this “it”.

            For the next part of the clue – “and take it in the canyon down” ….I have a different reference for the meaning of “it”.


          • Tom, when you read the line properly it is the warm waters that “halt and take”, not the reader.

          • WMIG – “when you read the line properly” is entirely relative to the individual interpretation of the reader

            are you suggesting that you (singularly) possess the necessary skills to ‘read properly’…?

            ..sounds like it

          • CH, I disagree. And yes, I am stating a fact, not an opinion.

            Reading something written with proper grammar can only be interpreted one way.

            There is no other way to interpret “halt and take”, both verbs are being applied to the “waters” which is the subject.

            Explain to me how you can possibly interpret it any other way without changing the grammar Forrest used?

        • Hi Tom…thanks for the response.

          IMO – a bit springs is just too easy of a starting point.

          Think about how difficult the poem has been stated to be, even by FF. To begin at a hot springs is just another misdirection that I believe FF expected to use.

          Now if one were to consider “edge of civizatuon”. Now that fits the difficulty level precisely.

          But to each is own,huh? We all will find an adventure from where ever we begin.

          Good luck to you sir.

        • I get hot springs as a distinct possibility, but I’m curious why that particular quote strengthens your conclusion?

          The only info I hear provided in that quote is that there are MANY PLACES in the Rocky Mountains where warm waters halt – in other words, the one in the poem is not a uniquity.

          But even then, how many is many (more than a few, but how many more – dozens? – hundreds?) . . .

          . . . and is he referring to just one kind of wwwh (like hot springs), or different kinds (like hot springs, endorheic/ephemeral ponds, geysers, etc)?

          As for “and nearly all of them are north of Santa Fe,” that’s true of pretty much anything/everything in the Rocky Mountains that you could think to sub in there, from ASPENS to ZEPHYRS.


          • The hot spring that fits the poem is unique precisely because of it’s location. There must be something in the poem that points to an area in which this hot spring is located.

          • There are very few lakes south of Sante Fe…. all lakes are warm waters.
            Just a referemce to Fenn statement

  46. Matt. All water (warm or cold) would halt in a lake. If Fenn was referring to a lake, there would be no need to use the word “warm”. He could have said “where waters halt”, but he didn’t. He intentionally added “warm”.

    • Oh? So your the expert on what Fenn thinks amd wanted to say?
      Its a factual statement, not a guess of what Fenn is thinking.
      With lakes the following occurs,
      Cold waters halt as it enters a lake.
      Warm warters halt as it exits a lake.

      • Ok Matt…Let’s take a breather 😉

        Don’t get so worked up over peoples’s ideas.

        • I see, another expert on others when they nothing about them… Perhaps less time interpreting others, and more time interpreting meanings would go a long way.

          • Matt… I’m trying to help you, not stifle you. If you continue in this fashion you will be disciplined. I know from experience.

          • Matts

            being that i’m just another expert at knowing absolutely nothing, as par the human course ..i can honestly state that you’re absolutely correct in your (above) imaginative assumptions

            no, seriously!! 🙂

      • But, water does not “halt” being water. Unless it turns into steam or ice. (gas or solid), it’s fluid. So, not all water halts at a lake. It’s still water. Even though Matt might need a “chill” pill, he’s right. As far as us not being experts at what Fenn thinks. He could have used the word warm for an entire different thing, maybe you’re reading the poem incorrectly..?
        How about that treasure supposedly on that island that has different levels to it? They poured liquid dye down the shaft and found that it exited under the water and out. Maybe in treasure hunting, the laws of physics breaks down. Wouldn’t want to see you get caught in a “Fenn” black hole. If snow melts into a lake, solid to fluid, then in summer melts into water, it continues to be water, warmer then when it was a solid. In winter, when it “halts” being water and turns solid, this could be in a lake. Warm waters halt could be a lake. No physics degree needed. I don’t think it’s a lake, but could very well be. Trying to guess at what f is thinking will send you into the black abyss where there are no chests, no treasures, but pretty pictures of a nice vacation.

        • Anything with mass added to water will make it heavier. That’s why it sinks. Physics still applies. But you are correct. Where warm waters could be a lake IF the lake has no outlet. If there is no runoff, then warm water (as well as cold water) would halt. However, Fenn has indicated that the poem is straightforward. I agree that this type of lake is possibly a fit to the poem, but I think unlikely.

          • I looked at the Great Salt Lake as a possibility for WWWH several years ago. The water comes in but there is no outlet…
            Water pretty much halts there until it evaporates…
            This seemed like a possibility to me because the geology of the lake is so popularly understood and therefore not difficult to figure out…but if there is no outlet…there also is no canyon down…at least not what we typically think of as an outlet heading through a canyon…

            When I could not make the GSL work I looked at other, long-gone bodies of warm water…ie Lake Bonneville and Lake Missoula..Henry’s Lake near Yellowstone is a remnant of ancient Lake Bonneville…as is the Great Salt Lake. Lake Missoula was farther north.

            I couldn’t make anything work…maybe someone else can…

        • All good Charlie,
          But we have waters vs. water. Shouldn’t there be a difference in having one ‘plural’? If so, wouldn’t liquid [ not frozen or in a gas state ] waters be more than one… That kinda, sorta eliminates a single body of water, right?

          Then again, if ‘waters’ actually ‘stop’ being warm, as in liquid, now we have a gaseous state or a solid state.
          And before someone jumps in and attempts to say warm, is a temperature that is comfortable and halts being that degree of comfort… how do we ‘measure’ with accuracy what comfortable waters temperature is, to a specific place / location?

          LOL, just thinking physics…

          • Wait up Seeker, I’m thinking. It’s Sunday before noon. Okay, got coffee.
            You are right. So my answer would be that physics will not help you in determining where the chest is. Lol, as far as figuring what f meant as waters, halt, and warm. (I’ve just confused myself).
            Alright, we are back at trying to figure out the “context” of what he is saying. ” Look at those sparkling waters, as he looks across the lake”, ” look at that dirty water in the lake”. Waters, water, what context? And that was kind of my point. How can we assume what f is thinking or relaying to us? Tom said he gets hot springs from f’s comment “There are many places in the Rocky Mountains where warm waters halt, and nearly all of them are north of Santa Fe. How did he come to that assumption from that? Just seems to me that Tom needs a lot more thinking to do when it comes to his starting spot.
            My “boss’ is getting antsy over here, hopefully I can continue this discussion later. Lol, why couldn’t the morning wake up in the afternoon…?

          • Wait! What!? ITs Sunday?
            Ah! The Dang Sunday Boss… not enough Coffee in the world for that honeydew list…

            How can we assume what f is thinking or relaying to us? That is what we are supposed to be attempting, and why we should ask… why us waters vs. water, especially if the poem is contiguous; neighboring or touching…

            I have also wondered if warm waters halt, as in frozen, is a certain glacier that actually did “take it in the canyon down” or the glacier carved the canyon… not far but too far to walk, through a geographical time line. Put in below the home of Brown was the location of that glacier, and from there it’s no place for the meek [ still in that time line ]… jumping ahead in time… to the “remains” of heavy loads and water high… all one small location by natural designed and were we should find / found the blaze.

            Then again… waters that stop being… some examples Dal gave above… might be what we’re looking for or ‘not’ seeing. Might it be we are looking for the aftermath of warm waters?
            If fenn was thinking down the road… maybe he turned around to see where he came from? Hint of riches new and old?

            I might need to switch to decaf… lol

        • Seeker-
          The plural “waters” has always suggested to me that there is more than one warm body of water flowing into this spot…
          That is one of the reasons that I liked Madison Junction..
          Two of the parks warmest rivers meet at that particular spot…
          Plus…again..it is well known and well documented as the place where two rivers halt…

          I believe this place where warm waters halt has to be both obvious and unique… as well as evident on a good map.

          • Dal – Ditto. And that is why your Warm Waters Halt spot is also mine. Andand on that good map, the confluence is shaped like a Y, which fits with, “Why is it that I must go”. And I still believe “it”is the Madison River…

          • Dal. I like the way you think. Forrest has said: “there is no substitute for thinking and planning and observing and looking at maps, unless it is the desire to keep it simple. (Tarryscant.com) There are many posts on this site that describe convoluted meanings for his words. As Forrest says, keep it simple is good advice.

        • Yet another possibility is the place where all these hot springs flow…
          For instance…the Gibbon River is the singular place where a hundred or more thermal features nearby, drain. Maybe a river like that is the place where warm waters halt…and then you follow that river down into its canyon.

          Many folks have tried these ideas and couldn’t make them work…but the thinking seems solid to me…the application works…but the follow-thru has failed.

          Maybe someone else can make one of these rivers work…there are several in the mountains…

          • Exactly. Completely agree with your thinking. I definitely feel that we are looking for multiple hot springs in a localized area.

          • Dal, have you revisited your solves since FF mentioned that searchers had been within 200ft.
            It’s puzzling and to go from 500ft of regular people to 200ft for searchers with just the 1st 2 clues solved how those would reconcile unless WE and HoB were identified.
            Curious if any prior solutions may break open this conundrum.

          • All good places, but that is the thing. It seems to obvious. Likwe Tim said earlier, just seems obvious. With no results, I have to ask again, ” are we reading the poem incorrectly”?
            Like f has said, there are many places where warm waters halt, do we just pick one and run with it? Seems to obvious. Just as hot springs seems so obvious. The first clue is suppose to be the toughest, not the most obvious. Are we suppose to take for granted that hob is a clue, or nfbtftw, or meek, or paddle up creek, or whatever?
            The obvious has not panned out yet. Some people have solved the first clue, if it was a hot spring, wouldn’t that be obvious? Wouldn’t they have gone back to such a place, now knowing what it was. But yet, he still maintains they do not know. If it was me, and I went to some hot springs, told f about it, and then he comes out with his after comments, I would be looking for a close canyon and work out the clues. But, he is not giving anyone a hand up on this chase, so why then the comment if such an obvious location to the few? I think the poem is a little more difficult then that.
            Nobody should even be looking at a map until they have solved the poem. Instead, people are guessing at a WWWH, looking at a map to find a canyon close, and running with it. Is that really what people think is going to solve this chase? I guess I should say I hope so, but as advice for any noob, weed out the obvious, solve the poem, look at a map, go put boots on the ground, see or walk or find the clues on your path, and head to the spot the poem told you to go.
            If the clues are followed precisely, not solved precisely. I could solve something and not know it was a clue. Same with everyone else. Could you really know what the blaze looks like from the poem? Anybody?
            How about WWWH? Hot springs, glaciers, steam, tears, fluids, gasses, liquids, high elevated lakes, all fine except they are all guesses. All obvious. I give Forrest a little more respect then thinking he has wanted us to start at the obvious. But hey, tear up the hot springs all you want, your time would be better spent finding a way to solve the poem.(maybe they have some canasta groups or maybe some hardware groups that visit these hot springs, lol). Still don’t see the “halting” going on.

          • Hi charlie….Welcome to “Difficulty-land” !!

            “It seems to obvious. Like Tim said earlier, just seems obvious. With no results, I have to ask again, ” are we reading the poem incorrectly”?

            ….too obvious…..I gotta give FF kudos…..difficult is the path we should all stay…..the “obvious path” will be seen after the fact…..or as FF stated….

            “why didn’t i think of that.”

            Cheers and good luck to you.

          • Hi Charlie — you posted above, “All good places, but that is the thing. It seems too obvious. … Like f has said, there are many places where warm waters halt, do we just pick one and run with it?”

            Of all the hot/warm spring spots that people like, Dal’s Madison Junction at least addresses the “waters” poem plurality. So many others pick a single warm or hot spring as their starting point based on little more than a guess. When you consider just how many thermal springs there are in the four state area, picking one basically at random is not a sound strategy; it’s a formula for force-fitting a solution.

            “The first clue is supposed to be the toughest, not the most obvious.” It’s clearly a roadblock to 99% of searchers, but I think the jury is still out on whether it’s the hardest of the 9 clues. After all, multiple searchers had figured out WWWH years ago, and yet getting past the first two clues has apparently been quite a barrier for them.

            I think Fenn reasoned that solving the first clue would be the hardest, just from a geographical scope perspective. Once you’ve got the starting point, the problem should theoretically be much easier since so much real estate is no longer in play. But perhaps Forrest underestimated the challenge of the creative leap that searchers would have to make to get past that second clue.

            “Nobody should even be looking at a map until they have solved the poem.”

            Here I disagree with you. In my opinion, no one is going to solve any part of that poem — including WWWH — without consulting a map unless they already have a comprehensive knowledge of the geography of the general area.

          • A big hurdle for this poem is not only finding WWH but confirming it. I believe f said something like you won’t realize you have unlocked the first clue unless you found the box. I wonder how many people have found WWH over the years but ultimately abandoned it because they didn’t get much further into the clues.

          • Well said Charlie. I agree. I actually think the clue “where warm waters halt” cannot be solved on it’s own. There are too many possibilities as you say. I don’t necessarily think we are misreading the poem, though. There must be additional information in the poem that we are missing that would narrow down the physical location possibilities for “where warm waters halt”.

          • Charlie…you said “Nobody should even be looking at a map until they have solved the poem.” I understand your point in theory, but how else would a person obtain a comprehensive knowledge of the geography of the Rocky Mountains, if we don’t look at maps? Perhaps a good grasp of geography and word definitions should be the starting point in our efforts to solve the poem? We have to marry the clues to the map. Think “arranged marriage “… , lol. The matchmaker is very, very clever.

          • Charlie,
            You said: “How about WWWH? Hot springs, glaciers, steam, tears, fluids, gasses, liquids, high elevated lakes, all fine except they are all guesses.”

            Maybe you have just answered your own question about whether the poem is being ‘read correctly’. The thing that most people do is assume that Warm and Water are to be taken literally as a water feature with some associated of temperature property. Is this the persistent mistake?

            F told us at one point that the person who solves the poem will mostly do it with their imagination. How does assuming that WWWH=(any of the above literal water features) exercise the imagination

            Going a little further, F wondered once whether ‘a searcher could use logic to determine an important clue’. The word AND is a logic conjunction that requires two pieces of information to be used TOGETHER….”AND take it in the canyon down…”. Perhaps the place to start involves actually solving those first to lines of stanza 2 with imagination and then using them together. Water, temperature, and canyons may not be included? Just a thought.

  47. Fenn says that where warm watershalt is not a dam. Water exiting a lake that is not associated with a dam will exit at the top, not the bottom. Simple physics. And yes, I have a degree in physics.

    • And yes, Fenn has stated that the poem states exactly what he wanted it to say. He spent years crafting it. So, everything in the poem is by intention. No guesswork here.

      • But a hot spring? How does this hot spring halt? What does it halt doing? Is it the steam? does it halt moving, being hot, being water? I could see a geyser system possibly, a dormant one, but a hot spring? Does it halt when you dry yourself off? And, what does it have to do with being “nailed down”, or “canasta”, or “home”, or anything for that matter? Sorry Tom, think your WWWH needs some more thought…

        • Very simple. If it comes to the surface and is contained in a localized area then it has happened. Also, it water has turned to steam then it has halted as it is no longer liquid.

          • If Fenn is using the term “warm” to mean temperature, and he has stated there are many places in the Rocky Mountains where warm water halts, then it seems most likely that he is referring to a hot spring or a lake without runoff. And of these two, since a lake without runoff would halt both cold and warm water, I think that a hot spring is the most likely. Now, if Fenn is using the term “warn” to refer to something other than temperature, good luck in figuring that one out.

          • And like I said, maybe you are reading the poem wrong.
            As this water turns to steam, it rises, right? Where in the air, or sky are you going to start your search? Or, does your search start below the ground where the heat turned the water to steam and rose up? Where does this “halting” begin? Where are the instructions to that line in the poem? Could it be possible that “alt” means alternate? Maybe warm waters and the letter “h” alternate. Maybe you begin with warm water salt…Now it sounds like a dormant geyser system which deposited salt in the area. Maybe, you are not reading the poem correctly. Very simple. Don’t mean to pick on you Tom, I just think you need to think more about your possible WWWH.

          • If warm is temperature and if warm waters is a hot spring. Then it is not warm it is hot, is it not?

            Then first, HOT has to turn into WARM by mixing with cold water or cooling off , And then WARM has to turn cold somehow.

            I am assuming, most think it is hot springs because of the “river bathing” scrapbook. I am looking for a hint in the book that leads me to believe it is a hot spring.

  48. I became so frustrated over this clue I cried – ha!
    I think it might be a “tea house” formally owned by Olga

    • Hi MaMa — it was one of the early theories. This is not a direct quote from Forrest, but one that was forwarded to HoD by searcher “Doc” on March 8, 2013 at 3:57 pm:

      “Here are Forrest’s own words on that, in reply to the question from me: “…sometimes you can overcook a solution by thinking too much. I am a simple man and www never entered my mind.””

      I think Doc was/is well-respected at the time he shared this email with everyone, and I for one think it’s genuine. It certainly “sounds” like something Forrest would say. In any case, I’m confident WWWH has nothing to do with the World Wide Web.

  49. Charlie. Seriously??

    The instructions are to begin where warm water halts. If it turns to steam then it’s a vapor. If it’s below ground then it is rising and therefore has not halted. It halts when it comes to the surface in a contained pool. If it’s not contained, it’s not halted. Fenn said to keep it simple!!

    • My comments above are not meant to be disrespectful. I just think there is over-analyzing of the problem. Hot, or warm, springs may not be the correct solution, but it’s simple and logical. Dal has a good solution involving hot springs as well (see his comments above). Where warm waters end could be where hot springs run off into a stream. So this gives two reasonable ways in which hot springs could be the answer for where warm waters halt.

      • Exactly, you said “could be”, the poem is exact. The blogs are fun to ask the could be’s but for a solve, nope. If you are saying could be, then you are guessing. Period.
        Anything could sound good, example:
        My WWWH is in the Deer Valley. Deer Lodge. The thing is to just say it means nothing, but how I come to there is different. The poem gives me a spot, to get to that spot I would begin in the deer valley. Anaconda to be more precise. I think Forrest begins here because that’s what the poem told me, along with his after comments to support. I could even narrow it down to a hardware store in Anaconda. All because I have a spot and can see how to get there. With research, knowing that the Deer Valley is part of the Yellowstone geyser system, but dormant. That it got it’s name from the deer coming down the mountains to feed on all the salt deposits, and when solving lines 5 and 6 I get “Epsom city”, and knowing that there is a hardware store in Anaconda that once was a train station, built by a guy named Nickel, all in a place that is dear (Deer) to him, to rest his bones(lodge), which has a gulch nearby, the end severed drawing nig/h or nig (hagGIN), it seems guessing on a bunch of hot springs close together is really not what F intended his first important clue to be. There should be a lot of info needed to find for such an important clue. I have to say, I like mine better then I like yours.
        Tom, I’m not trying to pick, I’m sorry if I’m sounding sarcastic, really, I just think that there is going to be more to his first clue, and a lot of support info. Like I said, mine comes from already having my spot, as you can see, those lines in the poem didn’t solve for a WWWH. Not saying I’m right, because I can’t, but I sure like it. That seems like it is most probable, that the clues cannot be solved right out, it takes the whole poem to give your spot. The support info will give you confidence.
        Now if I solved the poem and my starting spot was a hot spring, fine and dandy, but to just come out and say it’s a hot spring is a guess, and you know that.
        Hey, if anything, you now know my starting place, lol. Just beyond the tree line is no trespassing gate, but that’s the 3rd clue, another place for that discussion. Good luck, Ohh, one more thing, Forrest is rich, he could just buy a Jacuzzi if he wanted, instead of travelling to a dirty, natural Jacuzzi…

      • “…All of the information you need to find the treasure is in the poem.”
        Logically the poem should tell us where “begin” is then, Right?
        “*You will ignore the poem at your own peril.”

        There are many wwh in the RM’s… But there should be only one place to “begin” at to find the correct first clue.

        • Zackly! We are right back to The Poem…All of the ATF’s and “unintentionally” placed hints in TTOTC aside…The Poem is the tell all. Looks like Fenn did his job well and another empty search season(No Indulgence) is well under way. It will be another interesting couple of months of stories soon to come…
          Back to the Poem and long list of chores/jobs to finish before snow flies….
          Be cautious out there folks.

  50. where warm waters halt – maybe a couple of years a go ff put out a little story and a picture of his dish washer not working – and he was having to wash them by hand – and he arranged the dishes showing what was wwwh and hob- im sure his dish washer wasn’t broken but it was a way for him to give us a clue and to see who would catch what he really was saying – its in forrest scrap book – its just my opinion

  51. Is WWWH seasonal or year around. A ski resort can be where WWWH. Shoot water into the air to make snow for the slopes.

  52. possible – where warm waters halt ???

    see Too Far To Walk – page pictures and caption

    see The Thrill of the Chase – page 46 and caption also page 44

    yes, maybe where wwwh?

    Could also be referred to as home of Brown, long stretch of imagination?

    Just wondering.

      • Opps meant his brown bike… ok to much imagination… 🙂 But where did he park his bike?

    • my error / should have read …

      possible – where warm waters halt ???

      see Too Far To Walk – page 19 pictures and caption

      see The Thrill of the Chase – page 46 and caption also page 44

      the just of it, back in the day there was no modern plumbing.

      yes, maybe where wwwh?

      Could also be referred to as home of Brown, long stretch of imagination?

      The old cabins were all a dark gray / brown weather colored.

      Just wondering if any thinks this may work?

      • But most people would probably consider warm water to be in the general range of bath or shower water. Keeping it simple like Forrest says to do!

        • Everytime I hear warm waters halt somehow I think of something like “to halt money” somehow???? You know where the buck stops… comfortable… no money worries…:)

          • Good thinking spallies….. my money seems to go in the “canyon down” :-).

            Have a great night… see ya my friend….

  53. If WWWH is indeed the start than it must be an absolute beginning for all of us. There is no room for interpretation. If I said that you must begin at the Statue of Liberty than that is where we would all begin. The problem is that there are too many places where warm water halts, so I believe we should look at this in another way.

    Where Warm Water Halts is the same spot where Cold Water Begins – and cold water begins on top of a mountain – but what mountain? Once again, it has to be absolute and something that we all can agree on. If my idea is true than the only mountain that is absolute of where cold water begins would be on the tallest peak in the Rockies…Mt Elbert.

    On a side note, I would like to offer something that I don’t know if others have suggested. That is, the poem is not a trail that one follows from one location to the next. I believe the poem explains a particular place – all of the poem refers to the same spot. I don’t believe you start in the beginning and follow some step by step hunt.

    • Gregory. Very interesting. A place that stays frozen all year would seem to fit. A glacier perhaps?

      • Problem with that is that Fenn has said there are many places where warm waters halt in the Rockies, so that would seem to eliminate this possibility.

        • Well, technically there are many places where warm waters halt. That is the problem and that is exactly what Fenn would say. I don’t believe finding a random location WWWH and then trying to make it work is the answer.

          There may be many WWWH but only one is the answer and as Fenn has said, the common man can figure out. The poem is a problem that needs to be solved, so the words provided give an exact location to start no matter how vague it may seem.

          • Totally agree with you Gregory. I think that’s what Fenn was referring to by saying to look at the big picture. Something in the poem is to guide us to a general area in which to search for where warm waters halt. The task is virtually impossible if we can’t narrow down the area.

          • Hi Gregory.

            “The poem is a problem that needs to be solved, so the words provided give an exact location to start no matter how vague it may seem.”

            I couldn’t agree more.

            Welcome to “Difficulty-land” !!

            The key word in your sentence above is the word….”vague”. FF has hidden the solution within the words…..we just need to find out how vague the poem revolves around.

            Be the chest!


            Good luck to you.

    • The “step by step” could be in the memory/thought process; perhaps, and at times those of someone else.

      Not always a first person narrative.

    • Greg

      i agree with you theory of a definite beginning point, and maybe stanza1 provides hints to such, without crossing ‘clue-line’

      and i also firmly believe that ‘being wise’ doesn’t solely refer to discovering the blaze, but is more general to solving all the clues – especially wwwh, imho

      otherwise, we’re all automatically condemned to playing canasta for the duration of eternity ..however long it might last

      ( ..sounds a bit too infinite for my liking, tbh 🙂 )

  54. ive heard a lot of comments about there being a lot of wwwh north of santa fe -and to many to get the right one – well the poem says not far put to far to walk- imo that goes for all the clues in the poem – I would go as far as not far

  55. ‘warm’ could have an entirely different connotation……

    warm welcome:
    A hearty, hospitable reception or greeting, as in We got a very warm welcome when we finally arrived. This expression, dating from the mid-1700s, should not be confused with the similar ‘warm’ reception, which from about 1700 signified a hostile welcome, as in His rivals were planning a warm reception for him.

    • Very interesting Locolobo. That is certainly a reasonable possibility of an alternative meaning for “warm” . So, perhaps, a calm and peaceful area of water that suddenly changes to a turbulent, unwelcoming, area of water?

      • the inviting warmth of a hot spring, that burns the skin. (don’t even say it Tom), lol.

        • My personal opinion is that Fenn could have used either warm or hot in the poem with equal effect. I think he chose warm to widen the possibilities for the first clue to make it more challenging to solve.

      • Loco & Tom,
        This interpretation of warm plays into a lot of the talk about FF using double meanings, omegas, etc. If WWWH is indeed a calmer, inviting body of water that then turns into faster flowing/rapids which take it ITCD, then a whole different set of areas open up as possibly being WWWH. I like the idea of warm, inviting waters thuring into rapids as WWWH as it would also tie into not only FF’s comments about the search being safe for families/children, but also later when he references no place for the meek (rapids) and no paddle up your creek (don’t enter the waters).

  56. I’m in the Dal camp on WWWH…but I look at the greater Yellowstone area as the starting spot…covers the ‘waters’ (plural) aspect. (Not saying I’m right because the next clues are not definitive…but maybe the larger area, layers to the poem, etc. is the path…who knows?). Also, consider the most famous aspect of YNP: Old Faithful…do the waters that erupt not LITERALLY halt as they shoot into the air? For me Halt is on a shorter time frame than others who use lakes/snow/ice…the glacier idea is interesting in a geologic time scale, but so many are not even qualified as glaciers any more, most are snow fields…check out St Mary’s ‘Glacier’ in Colorado…it ain’t a glacier. IMO a glacier is ICE and it MOVES constantly.

    Also, consider the alliteration aspect of WWWH…if it is indeed a hot spring, WHWH just doesn’t have the same ring, IMO. Also, saying warm opens up so many options (by design imo), if he said hot, maybe that would be too easy?

    All that said, the real question is…why do the first clues need to be visited if you have to move on from them (NFBTFTW)? I suppose if the first 2 clues give you confidence of where to go, then you don’t have to physically visit them, but begs the question of then why Begin there? I’m so confused these days…I feel so far from a believable solve and all the recent stories only seem to prove the futility of it all. The ‘why did it take me so long’ comment seems to be a critical element…difficult but not impossible…straightforward…uh nope

    • Yes, there are multiple options for every clue in the poem. That’s what makes it a challenge.

      I have a couple of Fenn quotes I can dig out, but he has indicated that you need to start with the first clue and proceed in order to the last to determine the treasure location. Also, another quote indicates that you can proceed directly to the treasure (i.e. Not necessary to physically follow the clues) if you have already solved the poem. My personal opinion is that you might be able to find the treasure without pre-solving all of the clues if have the correct home if Brown identified and then go BOTG and start walking up the creek that runs below it. The remaining clues may then become self-evident while you are walking the creek.

      • Best of luck my friend, but I think that the final “complete” solve will entail more than just walking “up the creek that runs below it”. Just my opinion – JDA

        • JDA. Certainly, it is most likely that the one who finds the chest will have solved the clues before going to a BOTG search, but I do believe that if someone does have the correct Home of Brown and the correct creek to follow, it maybe possible that the walk up the creek will reveal the remaining clues if one is very observant of the surroundings.

          • Hi Tom.

            What you have just stated….

            “but I do believe that if someone does have the correct Home of Brown and the correct creek to follow, it maybe possible that the walk up the creek will reveal the remaining clues if one is very observant of the surroundings.”

            …is where I am with my solution.

            My next trek out into the wilderness is going to be doing just this…..but more precisely…..looking for the blaze that should be on my path.


            Of course I could be wrong.


      • Tom, “may” is one of those interesting words that
        means it’s own opposite.

        The remaining clues WON’T become self-evident.

        People have been up the creek and walked right past the TC. Go back to the poem, dictionary, children, and other USEFUL sources of solve info.

        The above is my opinion. Good luck.

      • Tim. If it’s the right creek, I think it can be done. I believe that the blaze and treasure are on the creek. What is necessary is to recognize the blaze. It will be easy to miss if you haven’t figured out what it is ahead of time. The ones that walked past before were, in my opinion, not walking along the creek. If the creek is tree-lined, which seems likely, and the blaze is on or adjacent to the creek, you need to be walking along the creek to see it. This is all just my opinion.

  57. I, too, am feeling exasperated lately. I have so many possible WWWHs (well, look at that! that must be it!) and starting places now–a couple of them are better than the others, but I’m a big picture, look at everything first person, which can be really annoying. I still like my original idea the best LOL.

    Anyway, here’s an idea. If you look at the county names across the four states, there are some places where a pair of abutting county names apply to WWWH, IMO. Like MT’s Stillwater (which is warm) and Park (halt), for example. Or WY’s HotSprings and Park. Maybe the WWWH is on or very near the boundary line. Happy Monday!

    • Ya Know, Finding WWWH is kinds like pornography – You will know it when you see it. 🙂 JDA

  58. What about the thought of where warm waters halt on a map. If you plot multiple areas where there are warm water that would make it plural: warm waters. If you have a large group of them on a map then you can determine where the group of warm waters halt.


  59. Tom B wrote:
    “Hot, or warm, springs may not be the correct solution, but it’s simple and logical. Dal has a good solution involving hot springs as well (see his comments above). Where warm waters end could be where hot springs run off into a stream. So this gives two reasonable ways in which hot springs could be the answer for where warm waters halt.”
    Tom B … I would be disappointed with FF if “warm waters halt” refers to a hot spring. As charlie (I think) said above, where does a hot spring halt? And there are billions of hot springs in the Rockies; which one are you going to choose, and for what reason?

    But there is a more basic problem with “hot spring”. It’s not warm. By definition, it’s hot. So your statement that “hot springs could be the answer for where warm waters …” sounds to me like a forced-fit. Warm does not equal hot.

    Searchers searching in Yellowstone National Park have a much more basic problem, however, than defining “warm”. It is illegal to remove items from all national parks. I can’t imagine Forrest Fenn expecting a searcher to do something illegal in acquiring the chest. The chest could still be just outside the boundary of the national park, I suppose. Again, I would be disappointed with FF if that is the case. This is supposed to be a treasure hunt requiring use of one’s … imagination. With the word Yellowstone slathered all through a book FF has written to publicize the hunt, no imagination would be required.

    Ergo, “hot springs” is not a viable explanation of WWH, in my opinion, and YNP would be a real downer for the location of the chest.

    So if WWH is not a hot springs, what could it be. I think Dal has the right idea, in his research on the Great Salt Lake (GSL). Fenn uses the word “waters” (plural). To me that suggests that WWH is used in a general, not specific, context, augmented by the phrase “many places” north of Santa Fe WWWH. So using the GSL as an example, where in the Rockies do many lakes stagnate, with no outlets?

    A stagnant lake, combined with an imaginative expression for the word “canyon”, gets us closer, in my opinion, to a viable solution for the start place, and hopefully someplace far, far away from the super unimaginative Yellowstone/Gallatin area.

    Ken (in Texas)

    • Ken (in Texas);

      You make good arguments, but I have to disagree. Only if you are at the actual spring, or eruption point of a “Hot spring” is the water hot. Just a few feet away, the water has already cooled. Forrest points this out in his “Bathing” story – – -Finding just the right spot – the right distance away from the source, for a comfortable bath.

      Any “Hot Spring” – some distance away from its source will be warm – certainly warmer than a glacier fed stream or creek. So, for me, ANY stream or creek that originates at a “Hot Spring”, qualifies as a “Warm Waters” creek or stream.

      I agree, YNP, for me at least, is a disqualifier, just because it is too obvious. But what do I know? NADA JDA

      • Good point JDA. While in Yellowstone I went to where the Boiling River dumps into the Gardner. If you were sitting in current there you could feel shots of cold and hot at the same time. Where there is less current you could find a perfectly warm spot.

      • And I have heard many say that where warmeater halts cannot be a hot spring because that is too obvious. Just because it’s obvious doesn’t make it wrong. The challenge is finding the right one, in my opinion. Regardless of what warm waters are, there has to be something in the poem to steer us to a small area in one of the four states in which to search for where warm waters halt. Otherwise, the task is essentially impossible.

        • It is not impossible to just read with your eyes and listen to the sound, every word has a meaning, this poem is architecture a painting of a story of a man, you can also read the poem and loud voice in which some words will give you a Letter of a song only joins or separates them and you will discover the place, but do not forget to read the letters before because the joker is the poem and letters your solution, or you can use GEORGE BURNS HAD 100 YEARS old place with 100 years o Tycoon of the bracelet 64 route highway street or railroad lines as the US64 endpoint city blazes next to the hob park and near the intersecting lines new mexico / colorado frontier, warm waters you can use creek a remnant or spring or a mountain with small Thermal pool near a creek and below canyon.
          If you already traveled or go by train to see the landscape you look at the j —- a, this is a pandora bau full of things the main thing is the game in your hand 4 cards and a joker, you can use some Here are some tips: – Well, – Peppers, dreams, rock mountain, fairies. – Earth landings, values ​​of objects like meters or feet or miles, you can also see Indian film jone that of the caverns of the river Great in san luis ate antonito.
          Well I hope it can give a luiz in this end of tunnel ..

          • Rhonny, if I recall you are translating from your native language to english, correct? Unfortunately, your software is terrible and the translation is not coherent. When people write like that it is highly unlikely to elicit any response, good luck.

      • Hi JDA….you bring a great point….

        Since a hot springs generates hot water and then the sprays are cooled at a distance away from the spring, clearly, WWH is not the starting point as referring to a hot springs….it would be to a spot near that location, but not the actual hot springs.

        You’ve just helped reduce the starting point.

        Nice going!

      • JDA … you’re probably right. And “hot springs” will be just as unimaginative an interpretation for WWH as Yellowstone/Gallatin is unimaginative for location of the chest.

        I’ve probably overestimated the amount of thought that went into FF’s poem. I was hoping that the searcher would have to use some imagination. But, after all, FF has said he’s a simple man. Ergo, no real imagination was ever needed, despite how “imagination” was hyped in TTOTC.

        I’m sure I won’t be the only one who is disappointed with Forrest Fenn.

        Ken (in Texas) 🙂

        • Ken, I fear you are up for some major disappointment on multiple scores. Imagination is relevant to the solution, just not in the way people “imagine”, ironically enough. At least you won’t be crestfallen on one score: the chest is not in YNP in my opinion.

        • Ken. I don’t think you’ve overestimated the amount of thought that went into the poem. Fenn gave clues that allow a wide range of possibilities. I don’t know if imagination is the right word, but it is definitely going to take a lot of contemplation and deductive reasoning to arrive at the locations that he is describing. For example, when he says take it in the canyon down, he doesn’t actually mention a waterway at all, though most will assume that a river is involved. When he says put in, it seems that he is referring to a boat trip, but is he really? He succeeded in making it difficult to solve.

          • Oh I’ve been through all of that in the last 2 years. Searchers have proposed all sorts of imaginative solutions to this or that clue, and to this or that chest location. It isn’t a matter of needing deeper “contemplation” or better “deductive reasoning”, for a lot of us. We’re talking about a physical location, not some esoteric, ethereal philosophy.

            So after the chest is found and the clues are deciphered, it’s highly likely that a LOT of searchers are going to be disappointed, both with the location of the chest and with the clues.

            The searchers who are setting themselves up for a big fall are the ones who have spent a lot of money and time in the field, based on their perception that the poem has an almost metaphysical solution.

          • Hi Ken.

            IMO – to solve this poem….you really need to adjust your thinking to include all kinds of things.

            Some of used imagination, direct geological locations, and a variety of other tactics.

            …and yet….no one has come home a “happy camper”.

            Maybe you, like others, are cutting themselves short with your possibilities.

            Oh yeah, I understand that I am one of very few who believe that there is an esoteric meaning to the poem…..but I have my reasons…..

            …which is sort of like a defintion of a “omega”…..here are some prime examples of a meaning for “omega” is very extensive or meaningful to the search.

            “In textual criticism, the archetype of a manuscript tradition”
            – “the archetype” – a higher level of thinking
            “A primitive root of unity, like the complex cube roots of 1”
            – very reflective of searchers and a goal of FF to get others to participate.
            – Fennboree is a great example of unity within this clique (esoteric)

            “In computational fluid dynamics, the specific turbulence dissipation rate”
            – WOW – a rate of water? Hmmmm….*winks*……

            “In eschatology, the symbol for the end of everything”
            – I think I understand why FF placed these at the end of his book…..do you?

            IMO – you, like many others are cutting yourselves abit short with a viable solution if you discard the esoterism.

            Good luck.

          • Hi Tim(Z)…other ken here. I see you using the term “esoteric” in your posts about how you interpret the poem. I am probably a bit old school but…I always thought would refer to some specialized knowledge not common to most folks, especially to a child. Could you enlighten me a bit about your definition ? Just curious is all….how that falls in line with ATF comments alluding to straight forward etc. Thanks Tim.

          • Hi “other ken”….*smiles*….

            I put a similar sentiment out in these blogs in the past, and basically stated that – FF and his Native American connection.

            In my study of various Native American tribes, namely the SW US tribes, one of which FF active digs (in his pueblo), clearly shows there is a “spiritusl” connection within his life and lifestyle.

            Shoot…he has stated…..”Success is an omniscient guru. f ”


            …basically – telling us some details of his construction of the poem.

            “Omniscient” and “guru” are both words used in esoterism.

            Many shin my techniques, ken, because they appear to be well out of their scope of understsnding…or to them….specialized knowledge.

            I don’t think that is an accurate statement, because one can be spiritual, and not have any significant training in being spiritual…this…no specialized knowledge is required.

            BUT…..if one were to have this additional “expertise”, one can see things others may not….like the meanings of phrases, or even better understanding his use of grammar, even though he specifically doesn’t “go by the book”….and uses his IMAGINATION (spiritual/the mind/esoteric thought) to capture his meanings.

            Oh..it’s built in…trust me….others will shun me…but…..that is okay…because…we each have our own methods of madness.

            In other words….I also hope they reach the chest too…just as much as i have it in within me.

            Hope that helped.

            Good luck.

          • Tim-
            You say “one of which FF active digs (in his pueblo)”.

            In fact, Forrest sold the ranch containing the San Lazaro Pueblo a couple of years ago. He no longer actively digs there.

    • Ken – i like your honest logic (re: hot springs aren’t warm)

      but would a long-dormant geyser situated on active geothermal ground be considered wwwh?
      and are there official temperatures that define such?

      i’m also curious to know precisely what “warm” is actually comparative to ( ..i mean, the Arctic Circle is warm compared to the moon) so maybe the ‘architecture’ refers to deliberate open-ended possibilities in each clue (?)

      ..sorta like Dal’s theory of Multi-clue Duality, in-so-much-as the generally accepted solution to each clue could be an intentional red-herring by design

      • Mr. Fenn responded to someone’s question that “warm” means comfortable to him.

        • Perfect. No trickery involved. To Fenn, “warm” means the same thing it would to most of us. Again, I am reminded that he said to keep it simple.

        • Another perspective on warm and one of its meanings… not that I am arguing that this is how f intended to use the word… just a possibility that I am not sure people effectively consider.

          I have sat around many ‘warm’ campfires in my life, and plan to sit around many more… none of them are ‘hot’ until I get too close.


      • yeah, i noticed that too. but wasn’t the question specific to ‘warm’? ..which conveniently offers a vastly wide valley for Forrest to be vaguely off-topic whilst being directly honest

        (& yes, am googling ‘feather-down canyon’ as we speak.. )

        (no luck so far tho, but strangely i feel mildly… cozy.. and.. sleepy …zzzzzz

        • Hobbit –

          I mentioned last year that every outdoors outfitter has a down jacket called Canyon. That would be a a very literal interpretation of take it in the canyon down.


          • So, Begin it where warm waters halt and take it (go in) in a down jacket (named Canyon) not far, but too far to walk…
            (You may get overheated), and put in below the hoB. Do we wear our down jacket for the rest of the search to the meek area etc., or do we take it off? 🙂 JDA

          • JD –

            Good question.
            It’s pretty much always cold at elevation in these mountains.

            Fenn said there are clues. He never said these are directions. He said follow the clues. And Marry the clues to the map etc.

            We just take them as direction.

          • WHom would wear a down jacket in the Summer while searching?

            Sounds like another rabbit hole.


  60. Above someone mentioned double meaning as in Double Omega as a possibly there may be two separate places WWWH 2 distinct locations, one clue. Imagine that one is an exact line or tangent for my originl solve from 2012 which was at 32 degrees latitude and 32 degrees farenheight, that exact reference to Lat/freezes at the Rio Grande border with old Mexico, and that river is known as Rio Bravo in old Mexico . That was until I found the exact same wording “WHERE WARM WATERS (NM Game and Fish) in some old Proclamations that stated the Bridge at Embudo Nm an old Railroad station at the bottom of the Rio Grande Gorge, near Pilar, Nm.

    Suddenly it hit me, one clue two places, both are on the same River but way too far to Walk!

    From there it is no place for the meek, and since we lost two searchers there and ff says it is not near the Rio (BRAVO) Grand, is it also on another layer, too far to walk again? I’m not sure but that possibility is in creeping into my imigination. If you type in “Winter Thoughts” on the search line of this blog you see a linear expression of my solve, is it possible that there is a double, deeper, second expression architecturally designed to use latitude and longitude?

    The Bearing or course of flight to Cody, Wy from Santa Fe is about 348 degrees and West Yellowstone is 328 now put those #s into Tarry Scant and what do we get?

    What’s the plural of Tare? Where do all the tangents intersect? A special place perhaps?


      • Heading on out Thursday. Lookin in the treasure state. Wish me luck and it will come back to you. It’s a flight from hell but worth the cold…and I’m brave.

      • @JDA et al, (off topic) but alway thinking! I thought about you as I passed this art sculpture display at the Atlanta Airport this past weekend:


        I’d decided to walk to the baggage claim rather than take the train, was a bit to far but the bags were still not there when the walk was over….any how made me wonder about sculptures, how long it takes and all the work that goes into it. Didn’t get any clues out of it but the exercise was great! I spread the word about the Chase too, so maybe there will be a few newbies popping up here! Best, Cholly

        • Cholly;

          Thanks for the link. The stone pictured is a stone found in Zimbabwe – It is very similar to soap stone found here in the USA. I went to a workshop in Salt Lake City with a couple of artists (Sculptors) from Zimbabwe. I sculpted two fairly small pieces, using only hand tools, in two days Each piece was about 1′ tall and 8-10″ wide, and 6-8″ thick – That should give you an idea. All were “heads” – done in an “African” style. JDA

    • I think using the fishing guide for WWWH is very weak. The poem mentions nothing about fish, and knowing any of FF’s backstory to solve the poem is not needed (because he said you can solve it with just the poem).

      Also, I said this many times, New Mexico is NOT the only state that explicitly states where warm/cold waters are. Wyoming and Montana do the same.

      • WyMustIGo –

        Can you show the other regs that list “warm water” and “cold water”?
        I have them downloaded and I am not seeing what you are seeing.

        Every other state refers to them as “trout waters”. At least, that is my recollection.


      • Whymustigo. You said: “I think using the fishing guide for WWWH is very weak. The poem mentions nothing about fish, and knowing any of FF’s backstory to solve the poem is not needed (because he said you can solve it with just the poem).”

        This is an excellent point that I happen to agree with. The poem is supposed to be able to stand on it’s own. And Fenn has said something to the effect that no specialized knowledge is needed. I doubt that many non-fishermen are aware of this use of the term “warm waters”.

        • If in 500 years all a person has is the poem, and no back story: they don’t know “in the rocky mountains north of santa fe” or that there are 9 clues etc. Could a person reasonably just use the words in the poem and find your treasure chest?
          Thank you ~Nope

          Thank you Nope. Nope. f


          “…All of the information you need to find the treasure is in the poem.”


          Something is missing…..

          • There is another statement Fenn has made that says something to the effect of you need to marry the poems to a map. And, it’s true that you need to know it’s in the Rocky Mountains.

          • Seeker…Ah hah! There it is again…back to the POEM/BOOK…BOOK/POEM discussion. It keeps rearing it’s beaten head time and time again. The Poem Purists have mostly succumbed I am sure…hard not to with all of the ATF info out there. The Enigma continues….

          • I think what f answered is correctly stated.

            The question asked included “no back story”. Without that one thing the words of the poem are just that, words in a poem.

            Without knowing what the poem is really about, who could ever discern it’s purpose as being a map to a treasure?

            Being a map, all the information is in there. Discerning what the info is then becomes the main obstacle.

            All answers and statements by f are therefore true.

          • Sam,
            I agree… I really wish folks would put a bit more thought in to these questions…
            Like you said, we wouldn’t know what the poem is about… even with treasure, chest, trove, title to the gold etc. there is a couple of pieces that seem to be missing… the knowledge of the challenge. The fact that fenn felt the need to tell how many clues [ it wouldn’t matter if it was 5 , 9 or 20 ]… he felt it was important to know how many, and the mountains N. of Santa Fe.

            You also have to wonder if “his rainbow” is just as important…

            I wish the question was asked…

            If all a person knew was the statement prior to the poem “so I wrote a poem…” and the poem itself, does he feel it’s enough information to have a solvable plan to retrieve the chest?

        • Sir we have researched WWWH in other states & haven’t found anything could you PLEASE share where you found them

        • Coincidence of flight bearings to ff’s Viet Nam #’s Lug…. if true. Maybe a Santa Fe pilot and someone who can access ff’s Viet Nam #s will verify it for us. I am not competent in either.

          But more interesting, is the drift back to book data. The “poem is all” seems to be waning a bit.

  61. lm lost having fun chaseing my tail around looking for wwwh it must be solvable wy was full of beauty in its own way

    • In New Mexico, the definition of “warm waters” is exact, the locations geographically precise, does not require a thermometer, intersects with “canyon down,” and eminently in line with Fenn’s lifelong interest.

      Good luck with your search.

      • Hello Toby. With the information you’ve given, do you believe you know the area for which the treasure chest is, or does your search lead you to Wyoming?

        • In our vlog on Wednesday, we’ll disclose the eight locations in Northern New Mexico that meet the criteria a cited above. Until the treasure is found, we’re developing solutions in all four states.

        • Can I give you a tip?
          If it was done in a day of afternoon or late afternoon you think you would have to do 2 trips to this place.
          Calculate the time and time and travel in double, or you can use GEORGE BURNS HAD 100 YEARS -> location with 100 years
          The poem does not have its opening for the aquitetura, painting of its artist or the history of life of this artist man.
          Any romantic poet will miss the opening of the poem titled comment …

        • Yes new mexico, more with an observation, lines that cross border between colorado and new mexico exactly to 8 miles after frontier to the colorado, in my searches and observations that I realized on its fenn and some tips in its 4 letters, with 20 degrees Between north and northwest, and I have a slight opinion that her fenn used the ferrea line of ORSIE TO ANTONITO if I am not mistaken by what I searched for ferrea line US 64 she crosses 11 times new mexico and colorado with stop in the city calls, many the conbinaçao like Forrest fenn REPORTAGE say he pays his taxes and as a citizen he would have and the people have every right in the public lands of 2600 land equals where if he wanted to hide a can of DR pepper in the public lands, DR PEPPERS is quoted 2 Times in his letters, and also in a report that he gave after the disappearance of the hunter BILYEU, saying the treasure is to the north of santa a few miles and 8 miles of the lines that cross new Mexico / Colorado, this lines of And train are tourist which are 11 train crossings and few human trails, a means of transportation where all are amused with the beauties not to notice the presence of his fenn and his treasures in his bag lend to provoke a great hunt to his Treasure, so it would pass total awakened to hide his treasure and his beautiful bronze bau until the return of the train for 2 trip

          • Rhonny, you have been on my wave length, 22.5 degrees to be exact, Fenn at 360 degrees or due north computes with that common denominator. 338 degrees bearing nnw heading to cross lat. 37 And long. Over 100 we may be In tight focus with this border on another layer and dimension of the poem, and you and OS2 get it also. He lost 22 lbs and it is exactly 22.5 miles from there at the 90 mark. Second layer, amazing how much is in there.

            As we use to say in Nam….See you in the funny papers!

            Faster than the speed of a locomotive’s bell 620ft per sec, able to leap tall buildings in a single bound faster than speeding bullet train.

            Tom T…. 11 crossings Co, NM we may be getting close now, how do we tare with the marvel gaze? 3 miles is a general solve, correct solve is 1.2

  62. So the question is, what is in the poem that can lead us to a reasonably sized area in which to search for where warm waters halt?

  63. Long time lurker…first time poster…Hopping on a plane for our first search on Wednesday. To the Treasure State. Couldn’t stand it any longer, have to get out into the wood.

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