Odds n Ends About Fenn’s Treasure Hunt…Part Twenty Seven


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473 thoughts on “Odds n Ends About Fenn’s Treasure Hunt…Part Twenty Seven

  1. Ok, as I left off on the last Odd and Ends, I repost for response…
    First of all, I am not subscribed to this Posting of Odds and Ends. Nor will I be subscribed after this comment but, I MIGHT read comments regarding this comment.
    It is ODD that at Jenny Kyle’s site, mysteriouswritings.com, f mentions in Surprise Words – Walking Too Far that if you are walking long distances then, you are walking too far. It is also ODD that to reach my END I am walking very far, yet to do so, I am walking short distances.
    What do any of you think about this? Do any of you follow into this way of logic? Is what I say possible? Am I possibly on to something or am so far gone that I am in need of rescue from a wrong path of thinking? ODDS AND ENDS thoughts anyone?

    • A server in a busy full service restaurant , on an average , can make 10,000 steps equalling 6 miles in a 6-8 hour shift. Using a pedometer this stat has been measured. That is an average. Too far to walk is an individual perception opinion…imo.

      • Too far to walk is also relative to how much weight you are carrying as you begin in my opinion. What are we supposed to be taking down into the canyon? Heavy loads may then take on a new meaning. A person might list each poem clue horizontally and vertically on a spreadsheet and then “free-associate” where each clue MIGHT relate to each of the other clues. If you do this IMO, I think you will see how the overall true context of the poem can be surmised.

        • Nice ideas Mensan_Fennsan. I think his not namimg the poem was of a very ingenious method of architecture for the poem ,among other notables of style. ‘Begin it’, ‘take it’ , not far but too far to walk’, ‘put in’ , ‘ gone alone in there’, ‘ my secret where’ etc . No title to the poem, but title to the gold. There iare many things other than gold in the chest also. Perfect camouflage of meanings to every word, sentence and stanza. Simple but oh so difficult. Brilliant!

    • have posted on this many times slurbs. If the poem says, not far……but…..TOO FAR to walk, and he then says, if you are walking long distances to find the chest you are walking TOO FAR, then obviously you have a long walk. So, if you are asking if having a long walk is correct, I would say yes…Then again, a long walk for some may be a slight stroll for others.

      • In my opinion TFTW is not a clue. It is a hint and it tells us the (approximate) distance between the clue before the TFTW line and the clue that comes after the TFTW line.

        Forrest does not say we have to walk that distance..he says it is “too far to walk”…so in my mind I don’t need to walk it. I can take another mode of transportation between those two clues.

        In my ever synthesizing solution I don’t need to start walking until the “put in…”line…That is where Forrest parked his car and began his walk…in my opinion… but I have not found the chest so far using this solution…

        • Quick question Dal,
          If at the clue[s] prior to “put in” and the distance needs another mode of transportation to get to the “put in”… then, Would you be able to see the put in from the prior clue?
          {since, in this thought, there is no distance of measurement for tftw}

          That would make sense as to why the first clue needs to be nailed down… a one and only stationary position to view the “put in…”

          • Seeker-
            If the distance between WWWH and HOB is too far to walk then I suppose it could also be too far to see…at least it is in my solution…

        • Dal….
          Let’s see if I am getting this right: are you suggesting that, while not being a clue, ff is telling us the distance down the canyon to the “put in” spot is “too far to walk”, so use other transportation? Granted, walking (BOTG) begins at the “put-in” spot but is different than the previous instruction.

          • Big-
            Yes…start at WWWH and drive (in my solution’s case) to the next clue (because it’s too far to walk). I don’t start walking until I “put in” below the HOB.

            But TFTW is very subjective. I could walk it. I could ride a bike to it. Some people would be happy to walk that distance. Other’s not. Would a 79-80 year old Forrest want to walk it…I doubt it. I think he drove between the two. But when he was younger we know he rode his bike between the two because he told us so.

            There is a road that goes between the two (in my solution). So the purpose of WWWH is to show you where to begin. The purpose of TFTW is to tell you that HOB is not real close by. But it also tells me that there has to be another way to get between WWWH and HOB than to walk. So it helps define the landscape.

          • Hey everybody, Dal’s got a solution!!!

            Just kidding, if anyone deserves a break, it’s gotta be you, so break a leg. Are you going to hit up the Fennboree crowd before your next junket?

          • It’s the same solution I’ve been working on for 4-5 years…maybe more…ever since I stopped looking in NM..
            Maybe it’s time I got a new one.. 🙂

          • Dal…

            Fenn actually said that when he was younger that he rode his bike between the clue preceding Not Far But Too Far Too Walk? and the clue following it?

            I didn’t read the books..

            Thanks, Gordon

        • Dal, I agree with everything you just posted, except that I’ve always considered TFTW to be a clue. But maybe that’s one of the reasons why I keep counting a bit more than 9 clues in the poem?

          • Blex-
            Even in my vacant little mind I have gone back and forth about it being a clue…
            Using Forrest’s interpretation of clues and hints I think it is not a clue…

            Bottom line is that it does not make a batch of difference. It is helpful…but not imperative in helping me find the HOB. It does give me some verification that I have the correct HOB.

          • Blex. I interpret the nfbtftw line to be him thinking about his journey ahead because he already knows where he is going.

            “Those who solve the first clue are more than half way to the treasure, metaphorically speaking.”f

            Begin it where warm waters halt
            And take it in the canyon down


            Put in below the home of Brown.

            In my opinion, this stanza is him thinking(planning) his journey to his spot. Therefore, NFBTFTW is him thinking method of how to get there from somewhere. Once at the place in this stanza, every other clue is close by. This is the get to and by what means get to the area, stanza. MO.

          • Dal & Alsetenash –

            You have both made me look at the poem in a different perspective here. Now that I think about, there may be only 5 clues in the poem! Someday maybe I’ll figure out how to get right on the mark with 9 clues! 😉

        • Dal, you’re making too much sense! 😀

          I’m also a believer that TFTW isn’t a clue, but a hint. Based on: a) clues are in consecutive order, and ; b) the fact that people have gotten the first two clues “and went right past the other seven”

          This leads me to belive (IMHO, people, IMHO) that the first two clues are WWWH and Canyon Down. TFTW is a hint that tells you to keep going until you reach HoB, which is the third clue. Also fits with the little girl in India who can only deduce the first two clues from a map. HoB – third clue IMHO – can’t be discerned from a map, you’ll need BOTG.


    • Slurbs,

      Your statement makes sense under a certain assumed circumstance / condition.

      • It’s risky to assume. I don’t even count clues, but
        I don’t discount any words in the poem.

    • Besides the after the fact comments, you should think more about where tftw sits within the poem…In between Canton down and below hoB. There doesn’t seem to be reference to how much distance is need to be covered for anything else.

      With that said… IF just reading the second and third stanzas… It might be that all we need is is three locations of travel to the blaze.
      Find wwh and canyon down.
      Find the put in below hoB.
      Find HLAWH.

      Just because we are trying to decipher nine clues doesn’t mean there’s nine different places.

      • I’ve been trying to come to a conclusion for a while if the 9 clues do describe a location or place and the was a reply to a question recently that seems to imply so.
        I don’t know how Toponymy can help you at all Chris (I had to look that word up). But if you knew the geographic location of each clue it would be a map to the treasure. f

        So if you knew the geographical location of each clue it will lead you to the treasure but now I’m starting to think some of the first few clues are of a larger scale(and are known places on maps). Yet while the last few clues may be very small in comparison and not described in words on any maps. And the words inbetween the places described in the poem are what link them.

        • The Count – your thoughts here reflect my approach and how I come at the problem.

          9 clues, each a specific geographical location (within a defined “tract” of land); the first 2 or 3 clues are larger, specific locations that are find-able on a “good” map(s) that takes you to the starting point of the next 4 clues. The next 4 clues put you onto a path that contain points along the way and gets you in the general vicinity of the chest (It think that some, but not all, of these might be labeled on a detailed map of the specific area). The last 2 clues are very precise and pinpoint the exact location (I don’t think you’re going to find them specifically tagged or named on any map).

          In my solution, just getting the first two clues is enough to put most people on the trail that will take you to the location of the chest, but I think it is “the wiles of nature and circumstance” as people “thread a tract” which cause them to get confused and misinterpret, or simply miss these other clues because they have not properly “figured out” or properly “deciphered” all the clues . People thus go “right past” the treasure chest, getting so close, but not knowing that they were within several hundred feet of the prize.

          • I don’t think those folks who went
            “right past” were within a thousand
            feet of the prize. I think it was more
            like 2 miles. But I like the way you
            think. All IMO.

      • You appear to be omitting some important info from
        the poem. FF has said “There are no shortcuts.”

        All my opinion.

    • Slurbs,
      FWIW, I’ll add this “If you can’t make two trips from your car to your solve in several hours, then don’t go.”

      Given the comment involved in your initial question, pd’s link and the one I provided….I think your trying to justify the ‘very far’ by doing it in short spurts is reaching??

      Good Luck ta ya………..loco

    • Okay, this is one that’s been bugging me.

      F said, “But I will say that I walked less than a few miles if that will help.”

      He’s being intentionally vague, as usual. My question: does this mean he walked less than a few miles total? Or one-way? Or one round-trip?

      • Less than a few, vague but precise at the same time. Sounds like 1mile roughly then he says ” to where ” I would be inclined to think he’s stating the distance one-way from where he parked.

        • Perhaps he just guestimated the distance using a ruler only 80yr old fly fisherman posses but If the poem has already narrowed it down to a few mile radius then your more than ready for botg!

          • i personaly dont think its a distance thing!!!! but i do think it is 1 of the 9 clues!!

      • This is why I’m a poem purist. Walked less than a few miles…LOL. Instead of working on the poem people are trying to figure out how far Fenn walked, which is unknowable. Walked less than a few miles…how far is that? What if he rode a horse, atv, etc… the rest of the way? Too many unknowns. Don’t do it!!!

  2. Sub. If you have 23 odds and ends on a table and you knock 22 off, whatdya have left, an odd or an end?

    • If you have 23 odds and ends, and they’re listed numerically, and number 22 is knocked off, then you have 22 odds and ends left, which leaves an even number. 🙂

    • answer: you obviously possess a severe skill in clumsiness!! 🙂

      (whoops.. jus ‘subbin’ Zap – nothin’ to see here mate)

      (btw, how’s the weather up there? ..thirsty, per chance?)

    • Zap? ..you there?? …..ZAP?!

      nah, seems we lost comms again guys ..must be a moon/satelite/fear of water ‘thing’ i reckon, otherwise he’d def answer, right?

      (Seeker – you got that water handy?? ..just in case 🙂 )

      • Finished those lunar 18 holes, and yes: parched! Talk about nothing but sand traps. 600-meter par 3’s seems a bit unfair, even at 1/6th gravity…

      • so, ’twas your best round of golf ever, i assume (?)

        ..btw, meet us for a beer at the 19th, at 6pm lunar time
        (Seekers got a big surprise for ya 🙂 )

  3. Dal:
    BigSkip here…..Thanks for your reply of May 22, 7:47AM…. Our thinkings are the same…But I believe ff leaves that big distance gap undefined…Do I recall a story that he, as a kid in West Yellowstone, walked 91 miles? Or am I off a bit? While he couldn’t do it now, is he suggesting a possibility? Something, a distance, he could relate to?
    Just a thought.
    Thanks again

    • Big-
      Sure…the distance could be anything..
      But if you are going to reference something that gives you a distance and if you want to use Yellowstone as a region..
      Why on earth wouldn’t you consider the notion in the second book…titled Too Far To Walk…where he tells the story of his fishing trip that was too far for him to walk now…but was not when he was younger?
      I mean, if you are looking for hints…!!!!!

      It could be that he’s giving us a very big hint…
      or it could be nothing…but if we take him at his word…no subterfuge…then it seems logical that he is either pointing out exactly the walk that is too far to walk or he is pointing out the distance that is too far to walk…or he is pointing to a region…or something else related to that line in the poem…
      Otherwise why name it precisely the same as the line in the poem?

      Some folks refuse to take that story as a hint because it’s too obvious…
      That’s just the kind of thinking I think Forrest might like to get involved in…
      He put help right in front of us but we ignored it because it was too obvious…
      Anyway, it does not hurt to examine how that might work…

      Personally, I think the help he gives is often like that. He lays it out for us but we ignore it because it is too easy…sometimes we look too deep and ignore the simple truth…

      But I still have not found the chest so my theory keeps evolving…

      • I agree Dal…..Forrest is clearly utilizing “mis-direction” at every chance he can get.

        I think a lot of people don’t realize this.

        I can actually think of a couple tactics this is applied to….

        NFBTFTW – so subjective and nothing concrete, unless you apply the phrase to a specific direction, length of travel, etc.

        I.E…..”I did it in a few hours” – paraphrased….

        This phrase alone shows us a time, period, as well as, a maximum distance an 80-year old man can travel, by car, on foot, or however. We know his travel is limited to a car and walking to the treasure, but we also now know that it took him a “fe hours”.

        How we decipher this “few hours” is relative and can be precise if we stop and think about it.

        How much distance can a person travel by foot in a “few hours”…..or by car?

        SO many avenues and rabbit holes to pick from…..*winks*…..

        I hope I have picked the right one.


        • Tim-
          I wouldn’t call any of that “mis-direction” on Forrest’s part; more of an intentional ambiguity. Just my opinion, but I think Forrest would really prefer to see the chest found sooner rather than later. In all this time, I don’t think he has thrown out a single red herring (though I would imagine the temptation to do so would be pretty significant for Forrest at times)!

          • …or perhaps we are swimming in a sea of red herrings. Who really knows? This is the most interesting puzzles on so many levels.

          • Hi Blex….you could be right…and I do like the political correctness….intentional ambiguity.

            I also somewhat agree that he is being honest, vague, clever, ingenious and helpful all at once.

            Anyhow, he leads us with “misdirection” – his intent to keep the chase active – in order to keep us confounded and chasing after something. This is his game, and IMO – we need to either “get into the game”, and play it on his terms….or let the game play you.

            I think sitting up here in Difficulty-land, has its benefits…..*waves*….because we know he wrote it over ten yrs, that is a lot if time thinking about what to say,

            Have you tried combining “being simple” (unsophisticated I mean) and “solving a difficult puzzle”, yet?

            It is quite challenging….but solvable….

            Good luck to you.

          • Tim-
            The most difficult puzzle that I continue to be confounded by is the very slow melting of the snow. 🙁

      • I don’t have any of the books. Some may say I am being cheap but I just really want to use the poem only.
        Just wondering though dal, the fishing trip he talks about, does he say where he was and where he was going? I guess I am kinda cheating on the poem by asking but I have a solve and just would like to see if it falls under you big hint idea.

      • Dal
        BigSkip here:
        Thanks for the reply. As I have remarked several times over the years, I too believe that many of the clues and/or hints are not taken seriously because they are too obvious. I have used the phrase, “right in front of our nose” several times and I currently believe that to be the case. The fact that ff drives to the location with a little added walk to get to the TC location is extremely important. He leaves it up to us to determine how many miles down the canyon we have to travel to get to his parking spot. And then there’s the question, “how far below the HOB”?
        All in my opinion, of course.
        Thanks again.

      • I will agree with Dal “too far to walk” is a hint & not a clue.


        Lorene Mills (interviewer): You say that your writing a sequel.
        F: “I’m writing a book called too far to walk”
        LM: Hmm, isn’t that a line from the poem? (she asked it like it may be a clue)
        F: “Ah no, but it’s the theory, it is a line from the poem as a matter of fact, yea. This is kind of a sequel to my memoir.”

        (I think this line in the poem is not a clue because of the answer “no” above, he thinks she’s asking if it is a clue. It may have been too far to walk for him when he hid the treasure & this is the second video where in the other one he said “too far to walk” was a metaphor)

        Listen to the interview carefully & make a decision for yourself.
        Why would the man title his sequel after a clue in the poem???
        Doesn’t make any sense at all.

        Hint: Pony up & that also means HP in auto’s.

        • Jake. The day he hid the chest, did he follow the poem to the hidey spot?

          • I wasn’t with him Alsetenash.
            If I was, I would be dead.

            There are many statements out there by F suggesting we should follow the clues to lead us to it & one in particular I think he says it’s the only way.

            That being said, I believe you can figure most of the clues (places) to bring you to a spot around the 6th clue which I think is a creek with no paddle & heavy loads on it sitting in front of your computer.
            Then you have to go there & figure out hat the remaining 3 clues are & may last is the blaze.

          • Jake. What you say is possible imo. My question was eluditory to that a sequal is not the same as the original. Easier to do and produce 2nd since the original idea has been tested and made already-NFBTFTW.

          • Maybe he decided people need to know more about him & the location of the treasure. The map.

            There are hints in both books.

          • I don’t think FF strictly physically followed the poem’s directions,
            because he already knew the
            location. He advised a searcher that “there is no other way”, meaning that following the poem’s guidance is the only PRACTICAL way for a searcher
            to determine the LOCATION of the TC.

            Of course, if you knew where it was, you could walk in a zigzag path to get there, couldn’t you?

            Please do pay attention to FF’s use
            of the word “wise”. It is more
            important than one might think.

            All IMO. Tick, Tick, Tick.

  4. hey guys- i’ve been gone awhile, and catching myself up.
    In the first podcast in “On The Road With Charlie,” (which is pretty amazing, inspiring and i wish i was doing the same…) Is f actually saying he hasn’t been up there to Yellowstone since 1950? (around the 13 minute mark).

  5. Forrest spent his summers in Wyoming as a kid. When I was younger, almost all of the kids I knew had a bike. My brother and I rode our bikes all over my town….the pool, skating rink, friends houses, to play ball and miles to go FISHING…. just a few special spots we rode to.

    I’m thinking Wyoming.

    • Didn’t they spend their summers in West Yellowstone, Montana? Remember, not all of Yellowstone is in Wyoming.

      • OK…I’m thinking Montana.
        Gotta turn my truck around.
        Should be more careful when I’m reading.

    • I wish I could read it. But it’s too dark— kinda like a Bigfoot photo. lol. You can’t shoot down what you can’t read. 🙂

      • I can’t read all of them, but from what I could read, they’re towns/cities in Colorado.

        • Places:

          ?, Rangley, ?, Parachute, Gypsum, Idaho Springs, ?, Aurora, Parker, ?, The Pinery, Franktown, ?, Elizabeth, ?, ?, Black Forest, ?, ?

          • These aging eyes made out (dubiously):
            “Vernal = WWWH”

            . . . and not much else :/

          • vernal,rangley,loma,parachute,gypsum,idaho springs,aurora,parker,the pinery,franktown,ponderosa park,elizabeth,casey jones park,kiowa,black forrest,lake george, and x-rock campground also known as (twin eagles)

  6. Mr. Fenn,
    Reminder us many times of his age, how far can a healthy 80 Year​ old man walk?
    1 -2 miles with 22 pounds on his back?
    2 trips that would be exhausting too me, considering my Physical injury year’s ago.
    Mr. Fenn, has always been a mover, and he still maintains the slim, body, In reality I bet he can walk a good ten miles!
    All I know is he repeatedly said people have been within 200 ft. Of indulgence!
    I believe that! Someone find his Memoir’s!

    • What we need to do hear is find an 80 year old man, give him a twenty pound backpack and have him walk as far he feels comfortable then divide that by two.

      • Hi Aaron…..I’ve actually thought about doing this test, just to see an outcome.

        Sadly, I never did….but did write up a lot concerning an “average walk in the wilderness”.

        If you choose to do this also, remember, while having BOTG, one must traverse small ruts, mucky area, tall grass and weeds, overhung limbs, etc. Moving along while carrying 20 lbs on your back, twice…..could be very tiresome for just about anyone.

        • Hi Tim, perhaps I will. Maybe put an ad in craigslist: treasure hunter needs 80ish year old man of average weight and in decent shape for their age, to carry 20lbs on their back as far as they can into the wilderness. The pay is $25.

          Sounds like a fair amount right? Though probably should have them sign a waiver first..

          • Actually, maybe I’ll just get my dad to do it. He is younger than 80 but probably in about the same shape as an 80 year old FF. No waiver needed 🙂

    • I’m thinking between 2-3 miles one way.
      8-12 miles round trip.
      Not all 80 yr olds are aged & built the same.
      Good genes go a long way.

      • Right Again Jake DNA,
        Makes all the difference in the world!
        So does being hard headed!

        • DNA does control most for all.
          He did have cancer & that was probably in his DNA as well.
          I see a man that was in excellent shape at the age of 80 being able to make a 3 mile hike no problem twice & done in one afternoon.

          The advice I give to everyone is not to underestimate or overestimate him.
          I am sure he was capable hiking or walking 3 miles from his sedan to the hidey spot & then going back to his vehicle to get the second load & make it to where he left the chest, fill it, hide it & head back to see no one around on route & where he parked.

          Think about that.

          No one was around. If you are searching a place where people frequent, then think again.

          Maybe it’s not in your DNA.

  7. someone is putting out some very good scrapbook solutions at mysterious writings.

          • Aaron: a sun width is two minutes of time: earth rotates roughly 0.5 degrees (the angular width of the sun) in 2 minutes.

          • Good to know, and by the way I will be enjoying a cold one in about 2 sun-widths

        • This is the camp that I am not part of….force fitting things together to mean something you are looking for it to mean.

          Just another rabbit hole without an exit.

          • Combining scrapbooks.

            It seems like a fun game to play, but IMO – it will lead nowhere.

            Does that poster realize that there are thousands of combinations that can be made, and not just the ones he posted?

            Anyone can pretty make something work for their mind.

            Like “Frogs that paint cheaply”……combining his story on his love of frogs to the painting that he bought for someone who didn’t like it right away, but slowly wanted it at a lower price.

            Mine is just an example, but I think you can see my point clearly.

            It just isn’t worth the time.

            DO you really think FF would’ve had done this?

            If you do, then you forget one of his rules that is in play….”keep it simple”.

            Good luck to you.

          • No proof of such opinion, therefore notwithstanding. IMO. In the end, it is only truth will remain and illusions fall away.

            A quote from Nikola Tesla:

            “If he [Thomas Edison] had a needle to find in a haystack, he would not stop to reason where it was most likely to be, but would proceed at once with the feverish diligence of a bee, to examine straw after straw until he found the object of his search. … Just a little theory and calculation would have saved him ninety percent of his labor.”

            I think there is somethings to theory and calculation in the Scrapbooks-it is literary. I have no proof to think not of it in the otherwise either. No one here is beyond more than a theory. IMO. It just may be the odd that finds it in the end. IMO.

          • I agree Alset, whatever you find in SB’s will likely be in a literary form and not so much straight forward with names equaling names of places. It looks like this person put some time into these SB’s but they mostly seem to be a reach.

          • Aaron. Ya, I don’t subscribe with their method on the SB’s either- to each their own. My thought realm of the SB’s is like , sort of to say, his 3rd book/memoir relative to the chase .Equal or greater in value to his books. Just my thoughts on them. I think and see patterns in my innateness of mind. There is a pattern of amounts of them, few sporadic, or a consistent many and hardly any. All are patterns, the stories also have a somewhat pattern. Probably a new one within a couple days, according to pattern lolol. I pay attention to them because I see a pattern. SB’s are riddles to me. They may or may not have any nuggets but I pay attention .Not for solve, for mine is already done, but for insight in to the bigger picture.

          • I agree Alsetenash….there is no proof of anything any of us state….until the TC is shown by the individual.

            So I can say that combining things to form other things is – IMO – something Forrest probably had not done.

            I just don’t think he thought of doing something at that level, considering he tells us to keep it simple. If one were to do the combining…..well….that is not simple in any regard.

            Can you show me how it is a “simple” way to solve the puzzle? You seem to reject my thinking that is isn’t simple for some reason….what may that be?

          • Tim. Simple. The readability of the poem is simple. The concept is simple. The words used are simple. The often repeated method and quotes are simple. It is simple enough that everyone on the planet can participate in the chase. I can go to anybody’s house and cook a full on turkey dinner without any recipe to follow because I was a restaurateur many years ago and produced turkey dinners at least 100 times simple for me. My brother, whom has been in IT tech all his life, just can’t cook for the life of him.

            The poem is simple. Solving it has been a challenge and remains so. Simple just doesn’t mean it is Easy !! To me , all literature and speak from FF adds some form of spice to the gourmet meal to the chest quest cuisine. Everything he adds , adds flavor to the palate. There is some wild flavors people are guessing that are in it . The chef will always keep you guessing the recipe and he might just add some other spices to see if you can notice and figure it out. All the same, the chef may just not add anything different. Simple ,but can we really tell the difference. IMO

          • Nice Jake! I did that on purpose..9 times! Easy for you to see that lol :). The 9 clues are simple, just not that easy.

          • Jenny, don’t let Tim’s lack of wisdom detour your way of thinking. He’s the guy that stands by the town water pump, says many words, none make sense, never helps pump. And just like rabbit hunting is for Tim, the poem is difficult to figure out and even harder if your stupid, but it’s not impossible. Tonight I’m pitchin a tent at your camp because I know there won’t be any dead ends lazily refusing to pump. ~APyle

          • Uhm….aMp…..you’d be surprised on how wise I actually am.

            People can take my words and throw them into the fire and begone or not. I’ve never made any attempt to circumvent anyone’s thinking.

            Everything I say is of my creation and opinion.

            Huh……just like you, everyone else and Forrest.

            Imagine that.

            Good luck to you.

          • Yeah, I agree with Tim. Here’s my $.02, though it’s probably worth less:

            I believe a searcher’s time is better spent interpreting the poem to develop a viable solution versus interpreting scrapbooks that appear to validate your solution. It’s my experience you can bend just about anything F has communicated post-book (TTOTC) to fit a piece of the poem’s puzzle.

            It seems to me that F’s post-book communications (especially written) that add value are those with ‘errors’ or ‘mistakes’ but, like everyone else, I’m just guessing.

            All the above is opinion only. Good luck to all in your upcoming searches and, once you lace your boots, keep bear spray and common sense handy. I mention this because I tend to misplace mine!

          • “Just another rabbit hole without an exit.” – Tim

            Amen to that. If you’re looking for a needle in a haystack, don’t send for more hay.


          • ….yep….or as someone else posted….

            …..”a needle in a needle-haystack”…..

          • A needle in a bunch of haystacks.
            The hard part is finding the right haystack.

        • Thanks for the link(s), Aaron & JAKe.

          Yeah, I was a little disappointed after reading…. just more random associations seemingly pulled out of the ether. Jenny’s original post above made me think that there was something extraordinary being posted like a common theme uniting every single SB entry or something. Ah wellz!

    • The Scrapbook connections appear to all be force-fits to a presumed Colorado poem solution. The same can be done for any of the four states. A system less likely to result in confirmation bias is: 1. construct solution to poem clues based only on poem and maps, 2. find confirmation of aspects of your solution in TTOTC and TFTW, and only then 3. consider the *possibility* that there might be hints to your solution in one or more Scrapbooks. But bear in mind that there are so many SB’s that you can pick almost any location in the Rockies and find a dozen SB’s that will “confirm” some aspect of your spot.

  8. Dal:
    BigSkip here….
    Please refresh this old memory. You originally had some ideas/solves etc. about the Yellowstone area. Don’t know if you’re still there. However, I did listen to an interview (Part 1) in which FF mentioned, in relation to Yellowstone, he hadn’t been there since 1950. In Party 2 of the interview, FF clarifies his statement by saying something to the fact it was the community of West Yellowstone he hadn’t been too in many years. Did you buy into this clarification? Any doubts?
    Thanks for your insight/opinion.

    • Big-
      I believe I know what he meant to say and those comments have not distracted me from the Yellowstone area at all..
      I know for a fact that he was in YNP many times since the 50s…He built the Dude with Skippy in the 60s…and I have seen photos of him there in the 2000s and spoken with others from the area who he met with…
      Heck…I even know where he stayed when he was there not too long ago…
      So what he meant is not how others are interpreting that statement…

      One final note…in my opinion, Forrest has no intention of narrowing the search area. Eliminating YNP or West Yellowstone or the area near there was not his intent…any more than he intended to narrow the search area years ago when he mistakenly mentioned pine nuts.

      The guy has uttered tens of thousands of words about the Chase..He was sure to trip up once in a while…
      I do it all the time…but I have the luxury of not being recorded and listened to by a bazillion folks all the time who count on every word being accurate…

      I can remember a live radio interview he did over the phone with a station in Chicago. He clearly mentioned that the chest was buried…a few minutes later he nearly got in a brawl with the host of the show when he said “I’ve never said the chest was buried.”…
      He clearly did not intend to make the “buried” statement…
      In fact he didn’t even know that he had said it…
      Mistakes happen…
      Sometimes you have to use a little Fenn Think to figure out what really happened…

      • hey dal, just wondering when you were planning on getting some BOTG next.

        • After Fennboree I’ll head north of Santa Fe with a couple new theories. But I’m really going to Fennboree to watch Tom make cowboy coffee…I tried that once and ended up with coffee all over my arm and shoulder…and a pot full of grounds..I’m hoping he’ll show me what I’m doing wrong!!

          • Dal – i agree with you entirely [re: your ‘can’t be trusted ta boil water, even’ statement.. let’s jus leave it to Tom, huh?
            ( ..i like him already btw 🙂 )

            ( ..but please don’t introduce him to Jeremy P anytime soon.. )

            ( …could get awkward 🙁 )

          • curious-
            I hope you are coming to Fennboree…
            Last year there was a couple from New Zealand who showed up..
            They were nice…probably not from the same part of that island you are from…

          • oh my gosh Dal – i think i know the ‘NZ couple’ you spoke of… ikr!?
            (were their first names Thelma and Louise
            ..per chance? – yep! ..i know them 🙂 )

            ( ..coincidently, they just told me that you are such a massive troublemaker..
            ..worse than voxpops even!)

            ( – fact!! 😛 )

            Happy Fennboree Festival mate 🙂

          • I like my coffee out of a French press when camping. You just add water from the campfire to your grounds, wait a few minutes, and press. It’s a very convenient way of making coffee while out in the wild, and the smoky water gives the coffee extra flavor you wouldn’t get at home.

            ( Betcha thought I’d say add bourbon to it… nope, that’s for your pancake syrup! 🙂 )

          • [note to self: remember to hire twelve extra Sherpas, to carry Jeremys darn pesky ‘french-coffee-maker’ thingy…!!]

            [oh, and remind him to not accidentally possess an expensive m/detector
            ..whilst standing next to Mindy, ever!!]

            [ ..or maybe not ..after moral reflection.]

          • LOL ! You got it Dal. There are no secretes to my coffee (well maybe one) .
            Can’t wait to see you and everyone else again! Fennboree is right around the corner!

          • Dal,
            Ask Mr.Fenn if you could possibly video tape the
            Fennboree, and show the
            People that can’t attend the activities.
            That would be so cool.
            Just set up a typo with a video camera and let it Rock and

      • Dal
        BigSkip here..
        A big thank you from me. The depth and details of your reply were more than I expected. I have some additional questions which I would like to ask in the weeks ahead. I am sure your insight and experience, which you willingly share, are appreciated by the thousands reading this blog.
        Thanks again.

          • Filming…and doing it right…
            (which I rarely do)
            Is a lot of work and subtracts from the experience of enjoying Fennboree…
            So I’ll let someone else do that…
            There was a video posted of last year’s Fennboree here:

            and if you search this blog for “fennboree 2016” you’ll come up with a passel of photos shot by Tom and Cynthia and Old Drum…and even a photo contest from last year’s event…
            Should help you put pretty faces to all these blog names… 🙂

  9. Hey so there is a quote I cant seem to find in its entirety. It most definitely has been discussed on this blog before. Something along the lines of the treasure not being affected by the super volcano under Yellowstone. Just wondering if maybe someone could dig that up and what your thoughts are on the matter?

    • Whelp, that volcano exploding has a kill radius of almost 100 miles. I mean, thats pretty much saying that its not there isn’t it?

      • Dillydumes: I would say no. Forrest said nothing about the “recoverability” of the chest subsequent to a Yellowstone volcanic eruption. He wrote only of it’s survival. It would survive just fine under 20 feet of ash. 😉

  10. The Fenn Commandments:

    1) Thou shalt go alone in there.
    2) Thou shalt ignore thine poem at thy own peril.
    3) The meek shall not inherit the chest.
    4) Thou shalt not mess with thine poem.
    5) Thou shalt walk in my footsteps but not too far.
    6) Thou shalt not dig in graveyards, outhouses, or other holy places.
    7) Thou shalt not enter caves nor mine tunnels where serpents dwell.
    8) Thou shall not give false testimony without selfie with thine holy chest.
    9) Thou shalt attendeth my church in the mountains and along the river bottoms.
    10) Thou shalt not make drink of boiled pine needles nor eat the flesh of the porcupine.

  11. I don’t know if I would call myself a poem purist as using synonyms can lead anyone down a rabbit hole, never to be heard from again. However, IMHO, I feel people are discounting the importance of the first 2 lines, which are contradictions. F first says he went alone but then immediately follows the statement up by stating that he went with treasures bold. While this could be explained by his two trip statement, it may also mean something totally different.

          • oh wait.. _:≈ç©..¢£™ºª•¶§¡¡≠÷µ

            you’re right pdenver – yes i can! 🙂 √

          • White coats with extra long sleeves are on back order… may need quack tape, in case of emergency.

          • PD, my cracker jack decoder ring and magic 8 balls spelled out cute..?

            But I can repeat what Dr. Hobb said… I think it’s a medical term for removing a stick.

          • Yes, you would be correct. I thought Jake’s code would be cute on a t-shirt, too. You baffled me with your other comment. What would the medical term be?

          • Seekers right pdenver, but the correct medical term is “removeous-sticktomology” – it’s complicated 🙂

          • LOL

            Nope…..but I do remember when I had to learn it in Boot camp.

            It was either Dots and dashes / Morse Code….or just gibberish.

            I went for the intellect you have.


            Are you going to share?

            I’ll guess… “Hear me all”??

            Cheers and good luck.

          • You guys are silly.

            Jake’s code: f
            pdenver’s code: cute
            Fennatical’s code: It is in New Mexico

          • I thought you NZlanders have used the hands for those kinds of things.


            I think it is a super power!! Lucky!!!

    • It looks like it uses some secondary source references and may have some hearsay scattered about so user beware. But a neat idea.

        • Wow – who would’ve thunk it – Colorado is picking up some search attention.

          • Wasn’t the first interview done my a woman from CO?

            IDK , I’m getting older, and my eyes don’t hear as the use to.

          • LoL but my typing is still as good as it has always been… “done By..”

    • Looks like the map publisher is trying to make an extra buck or two off of the chase….

      • The map maker must know that it is in Colorado – so they won’t ship there? Yep, that’s it….

    • How is this map any different from the TFTW map? It appears to be pretty much the same, only less colorful.

    • Dont know if there is a connection but both CO and WA are recreational use marijuana states. Perhaps coincidence.

      • Totally, man. My first thought as well lol. We aren’t to be trusted with maps. We might use them to start a campfire.

  12. Over on agypsyskiss kiss Vlog, Toby thinks that the TC was hidden in 2003, now I thought that several people had seen the TC, like Howard the Hat salesman, since 2003 in Forrest’s safe, does any one recall who and when the TC was last seen in Forrest’s possession?

    Tom T

    • Exactly I’m not buying there was a stack of books there for 7 years and nobody noticed? And I think people would’ve noticed Fenn stopped wearing his favorite bracelet for that amount of time.

      • Just because something is special to an individual, it doesn’t necessarily mean that they will be wearing it daily.

        I have a favorite gold chain that I only wear on special occasions. Would that chain now be considered to not be my favorite?

    • Tom T – Here are some comments from f to consider on the topic…

      I’m not going to show you or anyone a copy of the email but this is his exact answer (except he used my real name) to the question as to if he hid it in 2003 or 2009/10.
      “Why are you making such a big deal out of that Ritt? What difference does it make? You should be looking for where warm waters halt.” f


      Q. You hid it in 2010?
      A. I have never pinned it down that close. I just say I was 79 or 80 when I hid it.
      Q. So you were 80 then?
      A. I was 79 or 80. I have a reason for not wanting to give an exact date.


      From: dal neitzel
      Sent: Friday, October 14, 2016 10:35 AM
      To: Forrest Fenn
      Subject: Latest words on Jenny’s site

      From Jenny’s Blog today
      “I could have written the poem before I hid the treasure chest, but I didn’t. f”

      You said before that you hid the chest when you were 79 or 80…
      That would have been between August 2009 and August of 2011…
      The poem was certainly written when it appeared in the book and on your website in October of 2010
      You have also said you worked on the poem for 15 years…

      Does all this add up??



      Response from Forrest Fenn:
      I never was good at math, but that’s the way I remember it. f


      ‘I reserve the right to be wrong once in a while.’ f


      I absolutely agree with the first comment…
      I think f makes it pretty darn clear on the second one… “I was 79 or 80.”
      The 3rd and 4th explain the rest of the confusion…

      Just my opinion… I think it helps to know as much as possible of the things f has actually said over the years.

    • Author/friend Michael Mcgarrity is another person that saw it but he didn’t say when in the interview. Maybe somebody can ask him? I would but I’m a poem purist so that’s where my focus is at.

  13. I say let Toby or anyone else think whatever they want regarding when the treasure was secreted. Fenn has clearly reiterated enough times that the deed was done when he was 79 or 80 and all of that info is right here on Dal’s blog ready to be found by those willing to do the work to find it.
    The playing field has been pretty darned even and fair from day 1 and Fenn has gone above and beyond to make it so…

  14. To me, it doesn’t matter at what age he hid it. That won’t change the location of the chest one bit….or my inability to figure out the poem.

    • Qualifiers for the search area….

      8.25 North of Santa Fe
      The Rocky Mountains
      Four states – NM, CO, QY, and MT
      – does not include Idaho and Utah

      Now you know what we know.

      Good luck to you…..and think safety first in your adventure.

  15. Jemez? Never heard of him but hope he is OK. This time of year can be dangerous with Spring thaw and runoff.

  16. What is happening?

    I visit various Chase-related sites on a regular basis to see what the “competition” is up to, and more often than not I’m now confronted by posts containing fairly vicious attacks on other searchers. I realize that there may have been some potentially underhanded activities afoot, but it seems that way too many searchers are becoming “tribal” and brandishing their spears aggressively.

    I know that a certain degree of obsessive focus is required to complete this task, but instead of directing this focus at the poem, it’s being redirected at fellow treasure hunters. I’d even go so far as to suggest that there’s an atmosphere of decay setting in.

    Fortunately, the problem is less acute here, but that may be due to the tolerance levels of Goofy and Dal. In turn, that might be regarded as censorship, but it does tend to keep the place more civilized!

    Maybe now the long winter is over things will settle down.

    • Can confirm…..I have been censored more times than I get through…but i get it….every time its been justified as I’m usually just baiting/condescending Tim (jokingly tho!). Your know all attitude can be a little frustrating at times. IMO **winks**

      But all jokes aside, I think this blog could maybe use a lil more productive/constructive conversation. Thought provoking questions may spur better conversation.

      Ill even start….
      How many people think too far to walk maybe means swimming across a body of water as walking around it is not plausible? Just something Ive been contemplating.
      Hence two trips, and being worth the cold, and having a warm place to retreat to?
      Its not part of my current solve but I have been debating it for back ups.

      Hopefully this makes it through as I really do have no malicious intentions with this post lol.

      • *smiles at dilly*

        You talking to me?!!

        *points to myself*

        You talking to me?!!


        Too bad!! LOL

        Seriously dilly….if I sound like I am condescending….my apologies to all who may thin this.

        I’m just having some fun in a world that is a foot race.

        Don’t take anything I say seriously…..because as the saying goes….

        “If I didn’t pick on you….it means I don’t like you.”


        Well except for “curious hobbit” – he is too far away for me to even care about him anymore….*hugs CH* :o)

        Just ignore me if you find I’m too direct and deliberate.

        And then when I am out on tour with the chest….and I call for other blog members to stand up…..will you acknowledge me?


        Good luck “dilly”…..use remote viewing….it actually is a viable solution.


          • Thanks Tim. I do know what it is and the reasearch studies. The alphabets spooks and all that. I do understand the con/science of it. You said viable, so that is why I asked. The ability to collapse time is its scientific premise. I just think it is limited and not at all viable. Just my opinion is all. It is an interesting study and practice , though I think it is notwithstanding. Just interesting .

          • Hi Al.

            I have to agree to some point – that it does take a special person in order to even have success with this.

            For me – forthe past four years, I’ve dissected pretty much every word in the poem and am now trying to visualize the TC through meditation and being aware of my consciousness to flow freely across the miles.


            Don’t worry….I’m “insane” and “crazy” and just about full of so many nuts, none of what I say is viable anymore.


            Good luck to you.

          • Tim. It’s all good. Leonardo da Vinci was a sane person. Happy ohm-ing 🙂

          • I know, right?!

            Da Vinci was also suspected to be an Illuminati member.


            *closes his eyes and rests his hands on his knees*


            *opens one eye to see if anyone is looking and quickly closes it*


          • But to some….its all “hooey”…..

            Don’t be fooled by those who have never tested it, embarked upon it, or even took the time to read about it.

            They choose to be on the outside and just scoff, because it can be a very difficult path to take.

            I’m one to do embark on such difficulty. Just to see if it is possible.

            Apparently – it is.


          • The ‘Super Weejie Mousepad’ knows where it is, but it ain’t sayin’!!

          • I’ve even consulted my Tarot cards, but I think I am asking the wrong questions.


    • I don’t know about decay, but I think there is a general mood of frustration at the particularly late snowstorms in a lot of search areas. The winter may be over, but the summer thaw is taking its sweet time. I’m sure a lot of people were hoping to spend the upcoming Memorial Day weekend heading into the mountains to kick off the season, but it looks like due to deep, lingering snows that’s not going to happen for a lot of people, myself included.

      What can an obsessed searcher do in the meantime except cut one another down in online forums? If I can make a suggestion: get outdoors and go on a nice hike this weekend that is COMPLETELY UNRELATED to the Chase! That’s what I’ll be doing. 🙂

        • Pdenver, I was thinking of staying close to home and going up the Manitou Incline and then possibly continuing on up the Barr Trail to Barr Camp, or at least as far as the snow will permit. At least that’s what I’m thinking right now, but may change my mind.

          A friend of mine posted some pictures of a hike he did around Dawson Butte last week east of Castle Rock. I’ve never been to that particular open space, so that might be a possibility too.

          It looks like Saturday’s going to be pretty rainy all day, so I’ll have a little while to think about it before a (hopefully) sunny Sunday!

          • I’ll have to Google search those areas. Never heard of them. I’ve heard the same about Saturday. The rain may loosen up rocks, so I wish you steady steps in your travel.

          • The Manitou Incline is quite a good workout to get in shape for summer hiking season! +2,000 feet of elevation gain in about 1/2 mile of horizontal distance. You feel quite good when you get to the top! It’s worth doing at least once in your life!

            Here’s a quick video with some decent pictures of it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eSrChG-qzGs

            While it’s a popular hiking spot now, it is made up of railroad ties from an old dismantled inclined railway. There’s some cool historical footage on this video if you’re interested: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZQG-9OTsyRE


          • Hello Blex. Thank you for the videos. Did some research on it yesterday. The Incline is quite a challenge. Do you need to reach the top of The Incline in order to reach Barr Trail? I got a little confused with the video. I had a good giggle with the first section of the first video. I hope you’ll get to go this weekend.

          • Gosh, I tried to respond, but it got lost. I hope Dal will bring it up for me.

    • I take the “miscues” to be frustration and dismay.

      Oh well.

      But I think you are right…..once people get out of the winter thaw….things will settle down….because they get to go out and do some testing of their solutions.

      Good luck to you as well.

  17. Looking for help with a comment that forrest had said that you would ” know the blaze from the first clue.” can’t remember where i had seen this and not sure if it was quoted by forrest. Thanks!

  18. Where does the 8,25 N of Santa Fe start?…. at the straight border line on its north edge…. or at the end of that long narrow finger that travels up from the north edge along the highway?

    • I’m not sure OS2, but my thoughts would lead me to the most northern point/edge. This is an opinion, offered as a thought.

    • Really OS2……….C’mon, you’re kidding right?

      This is a tough one; at the top of the page you’ll see “Fundamental Guidelines”. Click that and you’ll see Fenn’s comment:

      The treasure is hidden more than 8.25 miles north of the northern limits of Santa Fe, New Mexico.

      Research is your friend.

      • If I am remembering correctly…maybe not…and not to be argumentative, but I think it the 8.25 miles is figured on links. Dal did the math conversion and computed more than 8.25 miles.
        So it being based on the computation of links is not necessarily based on mileage as we in America know it.
        Forrest could be inferring other distance measuring as he is a world traveler. That is why he used links.
        Just my two cents and part of my solve.

        • So Tarheel, you’ve formulated part of your solution based on a statement you haven’t confirmed, taken in context, and from your admittedly bad memory????

          C’mon, you guys are kidding right??

          Fenn’s statement was in response to a post Richard made about Fenn the land surveyor. It was very clear to me.

          Fenn’s complete comment:

          Forrest Fenn: Land Surveyor

          Since Richard mentioned the olden days lets harken to 1620 when universal land measures first became law in England and America. As you rode your horse into town you had to pass 80 telephone poles in order to reach a mile because they were 1 chain apart, or 66 feet. And each chain had 100 links, if
          you wanted to break it down further. Road rights-of-way also were 1 chain wide.
          And 80 square chains made a square mile, or 640 acres – and that was 1 section of land.

          But if you’d rather count fence posts you had to pass 320 in order to reach a mile because they were a rod apart, or 16.5 feet. And since everyone knew that an acre was 10 square chains (43,560 square feet) it was easy to tell how many acres were in your neighbor’s farm.

          Some aspects of those measures are still in use today in the horse racing business because a furlong is 10 chains in length, or 660 feet. You should feel smarter now because that’s so easy.

          If you want to apply those important figures into the thrill of the chase I will give you an additional clue. The Treasure chest full of gold and precious jewels is more than 66,000 links north of Santa Fe.

          100 links = 1 chain
          66,000 links = 660 chains (66,000 ÷ 100)
          1 chain = 66 feet
          660 chains = 43560 feet (660 x 66) = 8.25 miles

      • Goofy, when the comment was first made, I checked an on-line map and the “finger” was a very long narrow margin along both sides of the highway. It was not really important to me, since my locus of interest was much farther away. It could be important to those interested in the Bandelier/Jamez area. I recently looked at a different map and that ‘finger’ is now shown as a different shape, wider, more irregular, and not encompassing the highway for its entire ‘finger’ length. Just curious where 8.25 is interpreted to be by others. Is it at a significant intersection point or historical marker point.

        • OS2, I don’t know much about Google Earth maps and how to use most of what is offered, but perhaps one might be able to make a point at the 8.25 mile mark at the most northern point and draw a horizontal line. If one wants to be exact, use a small level or drafting tool to find it. This is an opinion, offered as a thought.

          • 8.25 miles = 66,000 links = 43,560 feet. Is it a coincidence that 43,560 *square* feet is exactly 1 acre? Before answering, consider Forrest’s quip about knowing the difference between two miles square and two square miles.

          • Thanks Pen. I recall when Fenn’s comment was first made, there was a lot of casual of discussion about surveying, and phone pole distances, etc. From my first cursory look at a SF city map, I wasn’t sure what the latitude was of that 8.25 point. Still don’t, since I don’t know what the northernmost point of Santa Fe city property is.
            Seems I forgot the rule to never ask questions about blue because the answers are always gonna be about yellow and red and sauerkraut.

        • Hi OS2.

          When I first heard of the “8.25 miles North of SF”….etc…etc…..

          I pictured FF using this “specific” figure for something….but what?

          I tried long and hard thinking about this “distance” and believe it or not….I actually was able to fit it into “NFBTFTW”…..as a almost exact distance to travel.

          Of course this was used in my “MACRO” look I have talked about in the past…..because I have yet to be able to utilize it in a MICRO sense.

          So my conclusion is this….concerning that figure/distance.
          – It was stated as a hint
          – it can be used in trying to find a location – I was able to use it
          – It reflects a specific location

          Good luck to you.

          • Tim,
            Just because someone agrees with you doesn’t mean they love you.
            I saw this in a outer body viewing experience.

          • Jake – whose ‘outer-body’ were you remotely viewing at that time?

            ..not Tims again, i hope 🙂

          • Unfortunately that’s one of the drawbacks of remote viewing.
            You see things you didn’t want to & leaves an ugly scar in your mind.

          • I am not of that polarity.
            How do you undo a vision?

            It’s not all hooey.
            I just don’t think it can be learned. Either you got it or you don’t & I don’t think you’re gifted in that way or the other.

          • Hi Jake.

            This isn’t about me, it’s about the many theories that exist in the search. Let’s not steer it that way either, okay.

            I also agree with you that psychic abilities are not learned, but “gifted” to individuals without their knowledge. They basically have to “learn” to live their lives with or without it….and as we know….that can be done.

            Now as for the “remote viewing” side of the discussion, well, I’m not so agreeable that it cannot be unlocked by practice or some other repetitive/intense way.

            The CIA seemed to think it was usable in some way, in order to seek out information in the Cold War. So we know that there is some plausibility to someone, if they attempt to try it.

            As for me…..I’m still on the fence as a skeptic, but have experienced some “coincidental” things all throughout my life, that beckons to say I may have been “gifted” with something.

            Of course, not for remote viewing grant you, but other traits do stand out above others.

            Luck has been one thing.

            Good luck and positive thinking to you.

          • It does exist in the special few.
            I’m pretty sure it will be no help in finding the treasure.

            Let me know if I’m wrong.

          • As I recall, Tim, the first mention of the number was in links… and that turned to surveying talk, with a spin off on golf links. It all went nowhere. But I love watching everyones outside-the-box thinking, Can you flesh-out your ‘conclusion’ paragraph … was it the milage distance or the numerical 8.25 that was useful in a different context?

        • OS2 –
          Desertphile posted a graphic sometime back that depicted 8.25 miles north of Santa Fe – I can’t remember in what thread. I did mark my Gazeteer using his calculations (he seems pretty upright) with a thick black horizontal line at Cuyamungue. Follow that imaginary line and Jemez and almost but not quite all of Bandelier is out. There are two little sections of Bandelier that stand alone that could be explored. HOWEVER, some folks go by the “northerly” idea, and I think Dal is one of those. Dal has a graphic posted on one of his stories called “Bandelier Not” (paraphrased…sorry most of my brain space is taken up by my other occupation – the one that pays the bills) that shows what “northerly” encompasses (using the compass rose as a visual). Roughly take the latitudinal line from Santa Fe and the one from Cuyamungue and draw a 45 degree angle. Personally, I don’t search for the treasure itself below the East/West latitude line at Cuyamungue. But that isn’t to say that WWWH or any other place on the poem riddle map isn’t south of that line. That would be another topic.

  19. Let me rephrase that…..numerical as in 8.25, but in distance miles of 8.25.

  20. I’ve been thinking about the 20,000 word autobiography.
    It would encompass Fenn’s complete life history including where he hid the chest and why that place is special to him would it not?
    Therefore since the same AB was put into the bronze jars, then discovering one of those would lead the finder to the chest.
    Also “The printed text is so small that a magnifying glass is needed to read the words”. He said in the EIS interview: “I put it in a little olive jar. I rolled it up, printed it at Kinko’s.”
    So he printed it at home, then reduced it on the copy machine at Kinko’s?
    Does he still have that document filed in one of his laptops? And where are the extra (unreduced) copies?
    CBS news reported: “Nearly every digital copier built since 2002 contains one of these, a hard drive. Like the one in your personal computer; it stores an image of every document scanned, copied, or emailed by the machine.”
    There are two Kinko’s locations in Santa Fe.
    But if the comment above were true it would still be impossible to track down and find a document somebody copied seven years ago. ….wouldn’t it??

    • no, but you are going on the assumption that the solve to the poem and the chest resting spot are in the autobiography. He wouldn’t need to say where the chest is in the autobiography because he knows that the only way to get it is by finding the chest or the jars. You trying to think of something he may not have thought of? If you can get the Kinkos to give up the harddrive at the time, recover the erased files completely, and hope that he does mention the spot in his work, and you can find the chest that way, well, you have my vote for president randawg. Even though I don’t think the finder of the chest will be the smartest, if you were to do that, I would change my thought process, you would definitely be the smartest person out here. Officially. Einstein’s theory of General Relativity and randawgs method of finding Forrest Fenn’s treasure would be talked about in the same sentence. Over time, Einstein’s theory would dissolve into Quantum Mechanics and all we would be left with would be …..

    • Not posted as a search method, just as a curious observation. If the AB mentions all of the places Fenn visited in his lifetime then it would be an invaluable tool in finding the chest. IMO.

      (Note: Current events confirm that you don’t have to be very smart to be President). 😉

  21. I was just looking up synonymous to the word take. There are numerous meanings, but a couple stood out to me. I just thought I would share.
    1. Convey. Transfer title perhaps?
    2. Extract. Remove from “in there”, or from entombment perhaps?

    I think those definitions are interesting and may help describe more clearly what one might find once he/she is at the point of coming upon the chest. For me, those meanings are more specific whereas the meaning of take as “pick up” is general.
    I keep thinking that the correct solution is that BOTH the general meanings as well as specific meanings must fit to find the chest.

    • Well, I’m not real sure, but I hear Josh Gates will be looking for one in your neck of the woods on the next episode of Expedition Unknown. Since he NEVER finds what he’s looking for, we may never find out. But don’t worry, I think they only eat Hobbits that ask too many quest… um, please be careful!!!

      • They don’t eat them JBL…they merely take them back to the lair for tea and ….well…nobody is really sure what happens after tea.
        Gates never finds what he is after…maybe that is the Unknown part?

      • Um, uh – I’ll have to forward my invitation to Jake. I’ll be busy searching for the chest in the RMs. I’ll send tenderizer though, ’cause I’d think he’d be pretty tough. That hat of his would probably add lots of seasonings though.

  22. I was thinking about the legal/tax issues of finding the chest and how someone could let everyone know. The gift tax/exemption. I can gift $14,000.00 to anyone I wish without paying taxes. The exemption now is somewhere around $5,600,000. The thing is, when that person first finds the chest, is the value immediately designated into his income? In which he would pay taxes. But, by the time you filed the taxes, everything was legally “gifted”. The value to claim is $0.00.
    Someone could tell their story, even give chest location, contents of chest, and when the IRS, comes knocking, “oh, I gifted all that to the community”, value equals zero.
    Would the IRS, take down a list of everyone you gifted stuff to, get values of each thing, and then come up with an income that person should have then declared? Seems like a lot of work that might not yield much. I know staying silent is the best thing, just doesn’t seem fair to the community. Such is life I guess, where’s all the accountants out here? I’m only good with poem numbers>:)

    • Charlie — I discussed these very tax implications I think about a month ago. If Forrest chose to, he could apply the value of the chest and its contents against his lifetime gift exemption of $5.49 million (or actually, $10.98 million since he’s married). (Of course, doing so would reduce the amount left over for him to gift tax-free to his heirs.) But if he did do this (and I’m not saying he has or that he will if the chest is found in his lifetime), then the finder would owe zero Federal taxes. Depending on the state they live in, they may still owe state taxes, but these shouldn’t be nearly as onerous as those for the Fed.

    • To my thinking. It is precious metals. Tittle transfer is just ownership . No different than a vehicle transfer of ownership. Estimated value for insurance purposes . A bill of sale is when tax comes in. I think there is a legal issue section here on the blog somewhere. Where I think the chest is, it is public land so I am not too concerned. IMO. I would not be concerned about telling the community. I would announce it immediately in all due fairness to averyone. IMO.

    • I’m a CPA and Do not believe this is a numbers puzzle, so I think that is ironic. I am also not about to give free advice and open myself up to any kind of possible lawsuit based on something I haven’t researched thoroughly. (Even if the lawsuit has no merit, doesn’t mean someone wouldn’t sue you.) I’m hoping the name of F’s attorney is in the chest. He spent a lot of money on attorneys researching this. I would contact him/her first if possible. If I find the chest, I will pay the appropriate amount of taxes. Knowingly not paying taxes is against the law. I wouldn’t do well in prison.

  23. If found by a “nonprofit” the proceeds from a sale (with the treasure ultimately ending up in a museum) would not be taxed and all the proceeds used by the charity for their work. Perhaps, ff thought of “everything” but did he ever think that he might actually get a big tax deduction?

    • The USA views precious metals the same catagory as, stocks, bonds and real estate. Non sale transfer – no tax , until you sell – capital gains tax. That is what I found. You find it, ff gives you get title. Selling produces a bill of sale=tax and captital gains tax. Easy to research. Find it, announce it as anonymous at first to let everyone know that is participating. Figure out the tax concern after. No biggie. Same guidelines as real estate.

        • Oh absolutely I would stilll no matter what but all information is researchable to give one some understanding . Find it, understand implications, then deal with it. I am just trying to find it first.

          • In respect of the anniversary of SW:ANH…

            *Imperial march theme heard in the background and getting louder*

            Good luck Alt. Be safe, ok?

          • Thanks, JBL,Tim. I am one of those people that has in mind an exact spot and small perimeter.. I am not one to go on a chance as motivation to go search though. Snow stopped me my first time. If it is not there where I calculated the poem to this location, then I have no other locations to search. I go, if it is not there, then I just go home. To me, luck is a calculatory guess. IMO. Cheers!

          • Luck is a big factor I think….LOL

            Lucky for me…I am a lucky guy.

            So fair warning….luck is with me and pretty much has been 27th me since I won a dozen cupcakes at the local church bake sale when I was 10 years old….in yeah…and BTW…. I’m 50% Irish…..AND….. my son has a pointed ear…Part leprechaun maybe?….*shrugs*…


            MUHAHAHAH…*hand rubbed together in evilish way while laughing out loud*


            Good LUCK to you.

          • Dude,
            You are totally rocked by your own preconception.
            I feel sorry for you.

          • Thanks Jake….I’ll add that as a compliment if you don’t mind.

            I do like to rock and roll……..


            Lets see….*thinks to himself*……confidence level up a notch…because of compliment from Jake. Be sure to ask for him while on tour….noted….


            Ease up Jake….I consider you a friend, why can’t you do the same?

            We both are having a good time…why venture elsewhere?

          • Alsetenash, without knowing your specific search area, I would recommend pushing back your 2nd search trip a couple more weeks back to let the snows melt some more. I feel like snow depth is at best about the same as it was the weekend we both went out searching a couple of weeks ago, and at worst deeper. I’m holding off on searching again probably until mid-June now. I know it’s an endeavor for you to make the trip down, and I’d like to see you make the most of it.

          • Thanks Blex, much appreciate your information. I am going to wait a bit, though from here I can find the snow levels and it does look clear. But once again, I just can’t see my spot. I will be waiting until sometime in June. There is now rush for me really. I am just at the planning stage.

      • Hi Alt…that is what I had also found out.

        In addition…it is called a “trove” and not a TC or a chest or a gift. This is a key litigation point as well.

        Mineral rights also come into plans and could be a big deal, if found on certain lands.


        • Ya, my search spot I have researched the land designation and any legal beagle stuff I could find. No worries there.

      • Alsetenash: found gold or jewels is a completely different tax situation from real estate or stocks/bonds. If you win big in Vegas, you owe tax IMMEDIATELY. If Forrest doesn’t specify the chest as a gift and activate the lifetime gift tax exemption on it, the finder will owe taxes immediately on its assessed value, not when it is sold. I would imagine determining the value of the chest and its contents could be quite difficult and contentious. But perhaps Forrest did indeed think of everything.

  24. Any thoughts to “bubble gum” which have been mentioned in “The Thrill of The Chase,” “Tea With Olga” chapter, beginning page 115, Scrapbook 132, and “Black-Crested Buzzard Eagle” story? It’s been on my mind the past couple days. There may be some that might suggest Sugarite Canyon, but I’d like to know what other thoughts you may have, please. Would it be possible the others mentioned was to point out “Tea With Olga,” or, do you believe something else?

    • Pdenver…FF just recently informed us he used bubble gum as ammunition. Not sure where it leads but bubble gum might glue a few separate threads together.

      • Gosh, I can’t believe I forgot that one. Thank you for reminding me. I’ll have to reread them again and see if there’s a common thread. May have to think about bubble gum in general, too. Plenty to consider.

          • I want to be there very much, but seems I cannot. There are certain months/time frame my husband cannot take vacation. If it was held somewhere between the middle of July to the middle of August, I could have.

      • That gift of bubble gum to Olga always sat funny with me too.
        Most famous bubble gum I know is Bazooka… also a gun. A war reference?

          • I think “bullseye” on the Bazooka gum, OS2. I remember it fondly…the comic strip wrapper fits right in with a few other stories and maybe even Mandrake Fenn . Here is a snippet from Wikipedia “Bazooka Joe gum was lampooned on 30 Rock, with Alec Baldwin’s character telling a fictional story of the founder inheriting a “useless pink rock quarry” and turning it into gum by baking it. Later, a “softer version of their gum was used to make armor-piercing bullets.”[3] A fictional advertisement for the gum, starring Stacy Keach, encouraged viewers to chew Bazooka Joe gum “because life is hard,” and “it’s like chewing a mountain that someone shot a freeze ray into.”[4]”. The armour piercing bullets caught my eye…

        • OS2: could also be Double Bubble. Ties in with all the double letters in TTOTC, and the double omegas. Also the bubbles from the unfortunate hiccup. 😉

  25. For those talking about the 8.25 miles being important, that is the distance from the Vietnam Memorial to Ute Park in Cimarron Canyon….

  26. Upthread, Dal wrote:” Big- Yes…start at WWWH and drive (in my solution’s case) to the next clue (because it’s too far to walk). I don’t start walking until I “put in” below the HOB.”
    In my solution, the first clue is a geographic region; searcher will need to decide on an appropriate geographic scale. The remaining 8 clues are points and vectors within that region, as follows.

    Clue 1 >>> a geographic region
    Clue 2 >>> point A within that geographic region
    Clue 3 >>> direction/distance to next point
    Clue 4 >>> point B
    Clue 5 >>> direction/distance to next point
    Clue 6 >>> point C
    Clue 7 >>> direction/distance to next point
    Clue 8 >>> point D
    Clue 9 >>> direction/distance to end point E

    At each “point”, searcher moves in a specified direction for a specified distance. In this solution, I don’t leave my car until I reach point D. Then, and only then, do I proceed to hike (approx 500 feet) to end point E which is location of the chest.

    Deciding on the geographic region is the most important step. Thereafter, I drive from point A all the way to point D. Hiking then becomes minimal. This scale is consistent with what FF has said.

    It would appear that Dal’s solution requires a very different scale than my solution. Neither of us may be right. But my point is that searcher needs to get the “scale” right, for his or her solution to work.

    A number of posters (Seeker, in particular) have tried to “bunch up” too many clues into a small area. Again, “geographic scale” is an important concept in this treasure hunt, a concept that most searchers either ignore or don’t understand.

    Ken (in Texas)

    • Lets be honest Ken, I look at both scales.
      I’ve posted two theories that are based on large scales and have talked about smaller scale theories as well.
      I attempt to look at it from all both sides of the fence when taking into considerations the ATF comments; [Paraphrasing]
      If you can’t walk several miles to your solve…
      When asked about following or skipping clues, fenn responded, there’s no other way.
      Contiguous; neighboring, touching, bordering.
      Don’t nail down the first clue don’t go.
      Your destination is small, but its location is huge.
      Need all the ingredients.
      To an ant a mud puddle looks like an ocean… [perspective to scale is very difficult].
      GE and or a good [ right ] map. [ GE zoom in and out capability?]
      A map is a map the more detailed the map the better if you have the right map [Right Map?] land feature maps? waterways? Road? Train? Bus scheduled? What year map is needed?
      Fenn stated; ‘he’ walked less than a few miles [ if the poem’s clues are the only way… did fenn have to follow the same?]

      While I can’t argue if your point to point method is correct.. I can’t debate that it’s not the only method of interpretation. So if by chance you haven’t read the couple of theories I posted… I believe Goofy placed them in Armchair searches thread.

      The one thing I will say is, I don’t think, no matter what scale we are looking at,… no vehicle is needed for a ‘search n find.’

      • Seeker…
        I was rereading your armchair theories this morning early. Fenn’s comment to “Phil” has always remained constant in my mind. It seems the poem just happened to have 9 clues by chance…not by design. This is even after changing things in the “months” that followed. I find these statements intriguing…

        • Ken,
          That is a good comment to reflect on, But I think i was Halo’s [ doesn’t matter ].
          I think that is one of the comments that helped kick of the 9 lines to 9 sentences debate or at least added fuel to the fire.
          The question I ask myself is… if the clues remained about the same [meaning a possibility less or more at one time] is the structure of the poem important or not? [4 line per stanza, 6 stanzas, sentences, words within etc.]

          Fenn said not every word would help in finding the chest, but not to discount them… and said… every word was deliberate.

          lol… shoot me! just shoot me now.

      • Ken,
        Just to add a couple of other comments [there are many as you know]
        fenn stated, again [paraphrasing]
        I put on foot on top of the other and step on it.. that’s how I did it. [ that comment might be slightly off… to lazy to look it up at the moment].
        As well As; searchers figured out the first couple of clues and unfortunately ‘walked’ past the treasure.
        And; searchers told fenn where they were, told of their process, he knows they deciphered the first two clues and walked past the remaining clues and the chest.

        I just don’t see how a vehicle can come into play And/Or If the Scale of the clues area is large… do we need to stomp out each clue? or just solve the poem to the location of the chest and search ‘that’ destination area?

        I could add; solve the clues at home comment, and the certainty of the path beforehand comment… but a lot of folks get upset about me posting fenn’s quotes in my debates and conversation and ideas… so today and today only I’ll just paraphrase [you know them as well as I do]. They can do there own homework.

        • Many of those comments are ingrained in my mind…names of searchers mean nothing to me so I often forget.
          I believe all can be done from home… short of the actual recovery. I say this because of the couple of comments you are aware of.
          My ongoing theory/solve has a couple of obstacles that are remedied by using vehicular travel to traverse one particular dead end. So…I won’t rule out vehicle at this point. This also allows a larger “scale” to a smaller search area once on site.
          Another thought…one foot in front of the other comment…makes me think about counting out paces. That could lead to some form of numbers/counting paces…like in a search for pirates booty. Likely? Not sure…but I think not.
          I also come back to the vagueness of his comments about searchers figuring out the first two clues. He seems to always add…they did not “know” it.

          • “…the months that followed…” comment sticks in my craw and gives pause to the idea of “years” to accomplish. The “idea” was years in the making…but perhaps the actual hiding the loot and then writing the Poem comes into play.

          • Ken,
            I did a quick look for the quote [ in part ]
            …easy for me to put one foot down and then step on it to get to the next foot, …

            I could argue that implies walking. But, if we think about it for a second more… could it imply ‘steps’ involved. Maybe a natural stone staircase or man-made.

            Eample; some like the Grand Canyon in YS to be the location [there are stairs that lead down to the river]. Not a great place to leave a body, but you see my point, with a little bit of imagination.

            Here’s another that works with the large scale idea that whittles down to a small destination…
            “If you don’t know where you are going any trail will take you there.”

            IF a good /right map and or GE could refer a specific type of map… waterways and drainage. Could this type of map be the large scale? and all ‘waterway trails’ will lead you there? [in the mountains north of SF]
            My CD theory brings one down to a small area by using this idea…so… at that point is where the botg starts from large to small. However, To locate the 10″ sq spot… we might need tarry scant with marvel gaze to finalize it all.
            This, in my thoughts, might be the planning and observation part fenn talks about.

            A searcher should: “think, analyze, plan, observe, imagination.”

            Ok, thanks for the chat… coffee break is over. The honeydew list is waiting.

  27. The community of Cuyamungue is 8.25 miles north of the Santa Fe city border. If you go 8.25 miles north of the Santa Fe County border it lands you in Española near the Walmart.

  28. To Seeker and Ken

    I have read and heard one of the comments from Fenn that you are referencing here. But I can not find the exact source of the quote from Fenn. Can one of one tell me the where to find it?

    Seeker said “fenn stated, again [paraphrasing]
    I put on foot on top of the other and step on it.. that’s how I did it. [ that comment might be slightly off… to lazy to look it up at the moment].”

    Ken said ” Another thought…one foot in front of the other comment…makes me think about counting out paces.”

    Thanks for any help, Jim

      • Jake,
        There is more than one comment in relationship to placing on foot to another. Just so’s ya knows…
        But again, not gonna do the home work for ya’s…

        Yep, Pacing has come to mind as well. The question now is… from each clue? Some of the clues? From the blaze to the chest?
        To think of stepping out, counting paces or feet… this thought can change one’s line of thinking about the scale of the search area.
        If all or even some of the clues use this, it could be why the searcher with the first two clues {indicating/deciphered those clues} Walked by the other seven remaining clues.

        YET, now come the problem of how many paces [which to me in a stride length of a walk] or feet [one foot from toe to heal walk]. And, where do we get the measurements/numbers to step out, as well as directions?

        For all we know wwwh could be the size of a mud puddle and the canyon down is descending or in a southern direction, Not far… right turn.. too far to walk.. another right turn to hoB… then at the place of no meek, we foot-it to the end and make a nigh [ left or west ]. [just examples].

        IF pacing is involved, I’d lean more toward the end of the clues.
        And now we have another problem… if the blaze doesn’t face any direction, where do we go? [but to be fair, all we truly know is the blaze doesn’t face N,S,E,or W.] Although, we do have ‘up’ as a direction for ‘your creek [ascending or northerly]

        All in all, unless we understand the poem fully beforehand… we got notta for an attempt to ‘solve’ the clues with pacing/stepping in mind.

        “if you’ve been wise [ might be understanding the direction properly – far, nigh, down, up etc.] and ‘found the blaze” could refer to the ‘blaze itself’ The stepping /pacing of the clues… which in this case… once you pace out all the clue’s references ‘look quickly down’.

        • I only know of 1 where he mentions foot placings.
          If he has mentioned it in other interviews then i would have to give it more credence.
          Once is good enough for me though.

          Now, get back to the honeydew.

      • Thanks Jake.
        Male: Forrest, did you have nine clues before you wrote the poem? Or did nine clues appear after you wrote it?

        Forrest: They’re contiguous. I knew where I wanted to hide the treasure chest, so it was easy for me to put one foot down and then step on it to get to the next foot. That’s what I did. I changed it over, I don’t know how many times. I looked up the meaning of words. You know, we really don’t know what some of our words mean. For instance what does the word several mean? S-E-V-E-R-A-L, what does that mean?

        The only reason I asked was because when I first heard the question and answer Fenn .

        And for some reason it reminded me of the time when he tripped over something and found the headstone on the French soldier. Did he put one foot down then and step on it and trip?


        • Jim,
          Poke around this site & don’t be lazy.
          There is tons of great info that will help you out before asking obvious questions.

          I would hope most new searchers would do just that as I & many here have done.

          Poke the site 1st. I do understand it’s a lot of work & there are many video’s & statemnets on http://mysteriouswritings.com/ as well but many of the questions most ask can be answered by searching & that’s what this all about.

          That goes for you Big Ski

  29. Not getting good vibes. Something just doesn’t feel right. Hopefully, it will pass.

    • SL, I wish I could help. I’ve had those feelings before, and they’re usually not to be ignored. I hope it will pass.

    • Hi SL….do you feel a disturbance in the Force?


      What is it? Another rogue secret mission?


    • Do you think it has to do with the lack of SB’s & interaction here from F lately?
      I feel a void in the rift.

      • I thought so too. A pattern change after SB 183. The next day he posted on MW Q&A -” Walk Away” and “Atomic” story/answer. There is a SB 184 collaboration following but that is it since. Maybe just a spacing break and will have some more. Maybe just thinking of New Clear ideas. IMO.

        • There something more going on that meets the eye Alsetenash.
          I wonder if he ever went Atomic on Dal?
          Sometimes the lack of words can say a lot more than all the words in the world.

          • Jake:

            There something more going on that meets the eye Alsetenash.

            I worked on something in my career as an investigation-it was a perfect crime. I figured it out. But I couldn’t produce factual proof until the end. During it all, people thought I lost my mind. They thought what I was saying/thinking was nuts and not possible , though I was certain of the mechanics of it all but not being an IT guy, I was not believed. My career , credibility and life was on the line. They even tried to send me for psycho analysis. In the end I proved it all beyond a reasonable doubt. In the boardroom the evidence was presented and all mouths dropped in surprise and shock.It took me a year to do this. in that moment I resigned(atomic) and Walked Away-vindicated!
            Everyone was speechless. It was an industry wide scam.

            This chest hunt chase is real.
            “Sometimes the lack of words can say a lot more than all the words in the world.”

            I think he is just taking a literary break. IMO.

          • Sounds like you had a nice exciting stressful career there Alsetenash.
            I think that time spent with family away from this device I’m typing on is the better.

            There are disagreements though.

          • It was actually a thrilling caper , really. I still have a hard drive for my protection from back then. I packed up and moved here shortly after my last death threat lol. I wouldn’t change a thing I did about it. Like this TC hunt, It is right up my ally. I am odd and nobody will believe anything until it is found…perfect! lol. IMO

          • Hold onto that hard drive & copy it to a SSD for your own protection.
            I do think you have to be a detective to solve the crime here.
            Yes, I said crime.

            You seem like the intellectual type that likes to take things apart & put them back together in the order of F.

            Don’t go in June unless you know exactly where it is.

          • Thanks Jake,

            It is all over now, hard drive is just a memento for my future scrapbook haha. I am not a detective nor a investigator in career as a profile or title. But It is something I can do and do it. It was a corporate responsibility of mine that I had to do for my own sake and the company- I changed careers since. It turned out bigger than I anticipated-West Coast of Canada. I am just applying my knack to this Thrill Of The Chase. Ya, I won’t go until I am sure of the snow and weather. Like everyone that thinks they know, I think I know or else I wouldn’t bother going looking. IMO. Equal opportunity to be wrong in calculation.

    • Good grief Charlie Brown’s… you folks get nervous when SB’s come one after the other, then get nervous when the don’t.
      For five cents Lucy Van Pelt psychiatrist is now taking appointments – ten cents for emergency sections.
      Call 1800-holycrap and Snoopy will be glad to assist in scheduling.

    • In my opinion, May 18, 2017 was an inflection point for Fenn. I believe it will take time for him to recover from the emotional damage done, if ever at all.


      • I think it started way before that date Toby.
        One of the things I cherish most is respect for ones that deserve it & when it’s not there I walk away & shake my head.

      • Toby;

        I must have missed something. What is supposed to have happened on May 18, 2017? What happened that would “take time for him to recover from the emotional damage done, if ever at all.?”

        I would appreciate an answer. JDA

      • I doubt that. Forrest has faced all situations in life head on. And now in his later years is still proving how Life can be lived to the fullest. Emotional damage over the natural progression of life? He’s stronger than that IMO.

      • I don’t know if there were any that did then, pdenver. What do you think of Toby’s analysis? Thought provoking anyway.

        • I know the Math has been talked about. Yet, does it truly make a difference in finding the treasure chest, whether it was done in 2001/2003 or 2009/2010? We know it’s somewhere in the Rocky Mountains, 8.25 north of Santa Fe, NM, and includes the states of New Mexico, Colorado, Wyoming, and Montana up to the border of Montana and Canada. I hope I worded this correctly. As for the age, perhaps it’s something we need to consider when searching.

          • Ya, does it really make a difference when, as for finding the chest. I don’t think it matters. The 79-80 age thing, to, me, just means it is not a difficult terrain/area. IMO.

    • He hid the chest in 2003 and hid the treasure (put it in the chest) in 2010. The first 7 years was a test run.

        • Nah Jake–
          Just speculating. He said he got sick in 1988 and it took 15 years to write the poem. That’s 2003. But who knows? 🙂

          • Just a theory,

            When I saw Toby’s points on this I thought about it in terms of my solve and would it effect me in any way.
            I remembered JDA had a conversation on here about a potential second duplicated casting of the chest and there was a video, I never watched the video though.

            So, I was thinking, maybe the duplicated chest ,or whatever kind of chest was, a test run placed in 2002-2003 at the special spot – a 7 years test . Maybe a couple of goodies in it for good measure to see if they were still in it- people may just leave the bronze chest if they have no room in their hiking gear but they won’t leave a couple gold nuggets.
            So nothing was taken and no disturbance detected. In 2009-2010 maybe that is when he hid the real thing? He also could have just buried the real thing in the area for keep sake for the test period of the duplicate that is more easily noticeable at the spot. That could explain the toggle speak of buried and hid that was noticed. Not buried now but was during the test and his now in place of the duplicate test and is now hidden in plain sight.
            Just some thoughts I had after watching it.
            It doesn’t effect my solve or solution at all. Just my thought speculation and opinion.

          • Most of us know all about that.
            Chirp, chirp, chirp.

            The only difference it makes is what he was capable of doing & what more distance he could walk to hide the chest.

            I will take his word at 79 or 80 but it would be nice if someone who saw the chest & contents before he hid it & we would know the date, but they are dying off as well.

            Soon, we will be left alone with his words only.

          • He’s wrong… Dec 1988, operation to remove cancer. Doctor gives a 20% chance to live three years. Then one night, “after the probability of my fate had finally hit bottom”, I got an idea.
            If 80% is three years, then the bottom of his fate would be three years, 9 months. 20%= 9 months. 20 x 5 = 100. 9 months x 5 = 45 months, which is 3 years, 9 months. So, 1988 plus 3 years, 9 months = August 1992 when he got the idea.. Add your 15 years = August 2007. My guess, he hid August 22, 2007. If true, that is a pretty big clue.

  30. This is in honor of people who died and those who served! Happy Memorial Day, Forrest!

    The Soldier

    It is the soldier, not the reporter,
    who has given us freedom of the press.
    It is the soldier, not the poet,
    who has given us freedom of speech.
    It is the soldier, not the campus organizer,
    who has given us the freedom to demonstrate.
    It is the soldier, not the lawyer,
    who has given us the right to a fair trial.
    It is the soldier,
    who salutes the flag,
    who serves under the flag,
    and whose coffin is draped by the flag,
    who allows the protester to burn the flag.

    by Father Dennis Edward O’Brien, USMC.

  31. “Those who solve the first clue are more than half way to the treasure, metaphorically speaking”

    It’s might be obvious that fenn didn’t mean ‘literally,’ in this statement.
    I lean toward ‘conditional’ meaning; “unless” or “if” ~ you don’t know these clue[s] there is no chance to solve the poem. As fenn has stated in the past; “… need to nail down the first clue”

    Ah! but then we have another Q&A;
    Do you think that someone who is sure about the location of the home of Brown could reverse-engineer where warm waters halt? ~Ben Raylor
    Thanks for the question Ben.
    If you are sure about the location of home of Brown why are you concerned about where warm waters halt? But to answer your question, sure you could and a few searchers might throw in some gas money for a percentage of the take. Good luck.f

    …why are you concerned about where warm waters halt?
    Does this puzzle anyone else, that if wwh is the first clue, but we know hoB we don’t need to be concerned about the supposed first clue {if that clue is wwwh } that must be nailed down or stay home?
    As well as; [Answer only to an e-mail question].
    I read all emails unless they are too long, unsigned, or ask for an advantage or confirmation.
    Those who have solved the first two clues are not aware that they did, so I don’t see that as useful information for anyone. I will not comment on any solutions that are sent to me by email. Good luck sir. f

    Yet, some how searcher have “Deciphered” “Indicated” Told where the been “some exactly” and “their process” “Figured out the first couple clues” @ the site first two clues and “walked past the seven remaining clues” and “walked past the treasure”… {multiple quotes, in part, about the first two clues fenn has stated.}

    Should WWH be the first clue, what the heck is missing that searchers didn’t know, didn’t “understand the significance” of where they were?
    Or because the searchers didn’t know the had the first two clues… one or both of those clues are not WWH?

    We have heard many interpretations of what wwwh could be, and personally, from what has been suggested seems relatively simple to understand… rivers merging, hot springs, a hotel, glaciers, mountain bathing, waterfall, names of places and on and on… So how the heck didn’t someone know they had the first clue? Was it only because they went past all the others? I doubt that…
    I mean, if you know where hoB is, what’s the reason for being concern about ‘any’ possible prior clue?

    “If I told you that, you would go right to the chest.”

    Important possibility?

    • It is an important possibility since Brown is the chest. When you put in below it the remaining clues lead you to it’s home. This is also why he says that if he told you where HOB is you would retrieve the chest.

        • I do believe it is. Bronze is considered to be a brownish color plus I have another very good reason to believe that it is. I do not want to give away this thought process too much though.

        • Jake, I’ve given some reasons why I think Brown is the chest. What is a good reason to believe that it is not? A hunch?

          • Aaron,
            Because the chest was not made in the 4 states nevermind the USA.
            If the chest was made in the USA somewhere in the Rocky’s, then I could see what your saying.

            Get it?

          • I do, you are referring to it’s beginning. I am saying that its current home and the home that Fenn planned for it is the HOB.

          • I always thought FF named the chest Indulgence ( formerly called Tarzan)? Or am I mistaken?

          • True, but if he wrote home of Indulgence in the poem that would be just to easy.

          • Oh, ok…. So, you are saying he changed the character of interests name, for the purpose of the poem, from Indulgence to Brown? Ok, I get your thinking. You have a different idea, which is no different to difference of all else.

          • Exactly. To me, among other reasons, it just seems more logical than a fish, bear, or especially a name of a place.

          • Aaron. Are you basically saying that “put in below the home of Brown” is NOT a clue in the poem? Because that of what you say then , eliminates this sentence as a clue. IMO.

          • I don’t know if it is easy to pin point what is and what isn’t a clue. To me the entire poem diagrams an area and there are a ton of brown things and warm waters in the RM’s. People that make over 50 trips can attest to that. If a person chases ever warm water and brown thing there they will spend their entire life getting some great exercise and perhaps happen upon the chest someday. The poem is not what it appears on the surface. That I know.

          • It will be interesting if and when all is known of what is the true meanings of everything in the poem. Until then, there is the only unknown correct and the many many more potential of the wrongs. A collective perception agreement being incorrect is probably at a higher scale than the correct. I can and will disagree but I won’t say your wrong, because I really don’t know for sure. Thanks for sharing, Aaron.

          • Sure thing, thanks for your reply. Don’t get me wrong I am willing to keep an open mind about this and I find reason to believe otherwise I will give it more thought. One quote that Seeker just posted that I hadn’t seen before “…A lot of people who are searching for the treasure don’t see it the same way I do…” really rings true to your statement that A collective perception agreement being incorrect is probably at a higher scale than the correct.

            Brown is an important color. Both of his books covers are brown. Bronze is metallic brown. Treasures are bold which could point to a capital B in the poem. Along with his statement about being able to walk right to it if he told where HOB is. To me there are too may things eluding to HOB being HOTC.

          • Aaron thanks. Yes, what I said means the same thing pretty much. This thinking of Brown being the chest with Bold being partial instigator to this thinking. When typing in a MS word document , does clicking on B for Bold capitalize all words by this action? It just thickens the font.

            FF quote;

            In the interview with Jennifer London (right around the 11 mark), Forrest was asked about what the home of Brown was. He answered, ‘well that is for you to find out. If I told you that, you would go right to the chest.’

            Aaron. Is this indicative of separate entities or the same one? You indicate you think they are one in the same. I ask myself this in your line of thinking- ‘If I knew what the home of Brown was and realized Brown was the chest. Knowing this, now how does that help me walk to it, knowing this reading the poem?’ Is thinking this as a knowing this, walks me to where exactly? I just can’t get my head around this idea. I can’t see the flow in the poem in this regard. Are you are applying this, perhaps, to the below quote?:

            FF-‘nobody to my uncertain knowledge has analyzed one important possibility related to the winning solve.’

            Is your ‘possibility’ in the above quote, that he has a secret name designation for Indulgence (Brown) in the poem?

          • Lets plug it in Aaron.
            Put in below the home of -chest color-

            Just doesn’t flow right….

          • Hmm, well in the first stanza the treasures are bold. A capital B in Brown seems pretty bold to me.

    • Seekman…
      These issues have made me nearly insane for some time. My belief is…and has been for a while…that wwh is NOT the first clue. I think some folks were at a place below wwwh and so unknowingly had the first TWO clues because they had arbitrarily picked the right wwh not knowing about the first clue close by. HOB was right there and too bad for them.

      • I’m sure you are right Ken. They did not have the first clue and just happened upon the right WWWH.

        • This particular area would present itself nicely as a Begin it WWWH, canyon down etc. but folks would not have known about the real first clue had they not deciphered it first. Thus, they would have gone right on by….and I must be dreaming.

          • If that’s the case ken,
            Then why would he say the poem is straight forward at least 3 or 4 times now.

            Begin it where wherever you want.

            Less competition as far as I’m concerned.
            Carry on.

          • Jake…I could say the same to you…but I won’t because I’m not in this for the tit for tat games. I’m just laying it out there and no concerns about it.
            What I said IS straight forward if one has done their homework. You believe what you believe and I believe what I believe. No harm no foul in my book.

          • Tit for tat???
            I’m only trying to help.
            You apparently need some.
            I’ve seen your solve in a dangerous place for everyone.
            Pleas rethink you thinking.

          • Come on Jake…my solve is not in any way dangerous…unless you have come to your senses and have begun to realize you are on the slow team. Mother Nature is a funny gal. She’s trying to tell a lot of folks they are barking up the wrong tree…but for some freakin’ weird reason…they just think it’s something else going on.
            My thinking has got me this far in life…and from my front porch, things look pretty darned good. So…back at you brother.

          • Maybe I got the wrong ken?
            I’m sure Goofy would let you guys distinguish yourselves with different names.

            It’s tough enough to figure F.

          • Jake I’ve never said a peep about the specifics of my ongoing theory/wannabe solve…and I am the only one that goes by ken.

          • ken,
            You are not the only one that goes by “ken”
            Sorry for your confusion.

      • Ken, My thoughts [theory] is about the same…hoB was right there, line of thinking. I think it’s not so much about “reading” the poem’s clues in order of placement in the poem..but.. “reading” in a manner the clues might be told of.
        Example is; begin it where… are put in below hoB. If we look at stanza 1 3 and 4, they all have a single sentence… why would stanza 2 have two individual sentences IF “Not far, but too far to walk [period] was meant for put in below this next place?
        I would think it would be a continuation of the previous lines IF it was to be in “order of understanding” – so in this thought – we walk from warm waters, canyon down not far…< "from there it's no place for the meek.

        Ok tear it up and tell me how it can't be [ seriously ].
        But, keep in mind that it's not about reading from line to line in order, but reading as understanding what is being said, in order.

        • Fenn did state that the second stanza “…sounds like 2 or 3 clues right there…” paraphrased obviously. But did he really mean that? I don’t think so…I think there are two clues in the second stanza.
          And yes…NFBTFTW is a clincher in my theory. The distance is deceptive. 3 miles or less…but many more to actually get there. We differ here because my reading and understanding are in exact order as the poem lays it out.
          I’ll just say it…clue 1 is the magical target area… as deciphered from the first stanza. That how I see it …

          • Seeker…I’ll further say about stanza two…it is packed with very necessary info that could add up to several clues if not carefully deciphered. Remember that word…several ?

          • I am a dummy, I will admit, but when Forrest writes a book called “Too far to walk”, and in its preface he talks about a float of TEN miles down the Madison River, and then says, “and for me now, that is TOO FAR TO WALK!” TFTW = 10 miles – PERIOD!!!

            I am not one to look a gift horse in the mouth – you guys can make it as complicated as you wish. JDA

          • Don’t worry JDA,
            We are all dummy’s at this point.
            And maybe the next point.

          • Well JDA…you take that right to the bank and see what they give you for it. If you think he wrote a special book to let everyone know what TFTW was/is…that’s your prerogative.
            This is just talk here JDA…the real deal is going to get the Chest. So far all of the straight forward thinking has gotten…what’s that word…NADA.

          • “I don’t want to broaden the clues and hints I’ve written about by pointing them out. What surprises me a little is that nobody to my uncertain knowledge has analyzed one important possibility related to the winning solve.”
            I think it safe to say the clues fenn has written about refers to the clues in the poem, only.

            “I’ve said searchers should go back to the poem so many times that I don’t want to say it again here.”

            Both quotes can be found, in full~ MW’s.

            “Someone unfamiliar with your poem receives a message that says “meet me where warm waters halt, somewhere in the mountains north of Santa Fe”. Would they be able to work out where to go? If they can’t, would they need the whole poem, another stanza, or just a line or word to help them on their way? ~Phil Bayman 
            There are a few words in the poem that are not useful in finding the treasure Phil, but it is risky to discount any of them. You over simplify the clues. There are many places in the Rocky Mountains where warm waters halt, and nearly all of them are north of Santa Fe. Look at the big picture, there are no short cuts. f”

            Add the many quote in the posts above to these… It does seem that we might be “over simplifying” what we hope are the clues in the order we hope they might be.

            If there are many wwwh in the RM’s something must tell us which one is in the correct location… and that answer must be within the poem itself. Of course i’ll say imo, on that part, but more than logical.

            All the information… yada yada yada.
            That should mean, that something else has to bring us to the correct wwwh and not just throwing darts on a map. Especially since once we get beyond wwwh, there seems to be no concern about it.
            That to me doesn’t sound like a need to nail down clue or stay home…
            IF it is, then all we really have is a guessing game… just to get started.

            So, sure the first clue can be in stanza one… that is a logical assumption. But is it a place that that clue refers to… and / or… could we just be reading he poem too logically, because we might be stuck on linear order and not reading order of intent to be understood. { with a bit more imagination }

            In this line of thinking, and I agree with you to a point, the first stanza might give us what hoB is and everything is put in below hob. And that would indicated where to start and need to nail down the first clue… that eliminates the guess work for all those wwh.. and maybe.. all those canyon that go with the many wwh. bring us to understand the correct billions of blazes and possibly explain stanza 3 completely.

            Anyways, I’m only thinking of the possibilities as to what that important possibility might be, and it all seems to revolve around the first clue.

          • JDA –

            “I am a dummy, I will admit, but when Forrest writes a book called “Too far to walk”, and in its preface he talks about a float of TEN miles down the Madison River, and then says, “and for me now, that is TOO FAR TO WALK!” TFTW = 10 miles – PERIOD!!!”

            JDA, if you think that 10 miles is a clue you are doomed IMO. That is too easy. NF, BTFTW is definitely a clue but it’s nada easy. It does not reference distance. IMO you need to think differently like you never have before.

          • HMA – with your solve, do you even have to determine where WWWH is located?

          • Well, HMA;

            We will NEVER agree, and that is OK. Hopefully one of us is correct, and will be able to prove it to the other. Until that day comes, if either one of us is correct, and finds Indulgence – Good luck to Ya’. and TRY to STAY SAFE. JDA

        • seeker you have to know what is hob to understand why it says put in below- and for what I understand everything is below hob not under but below

          • Give me your definition of below and under… and why is it important.
            Just saying it doesn’t give us too much to talk about.

          • well seeker the way I understand it is that below is farther then under this tells me that the treasure is not at home of brown but that the end is ever drawing nigh

          • Seeker Quote:
            If there are many wwwh in the RM’s something must tell us which one is in the correct location… and that answer must be within the poem itself. Of course i’ll say imo, on that part, but more than logical.
            End Quote

            That’s ^^^^ right on, and why you need to figure out where it tells you that in the poem is so you don’t try to re-use the information later and end up going down a rabbit hole. IMO

    • Searchers have correctly “guessed” the first clue, using reasonable thought processes (i.e., educated guess), but they don’t understand the significance because they did not discover the answer to the first clue by the means Fenn provided. If they had, they would have understood the significance.

      If Forrest were to tell a searcher exactly the location of “Put in below the home of Brown” then that searcher could be certain they were in the right location, they would be darned close to the chest, IMO, and would likely be able to make sense of the last few clues and find success.

      In the above scenario, it would still be a significant advantage to have properly deciphered the first clue, IMO.

    • The significance of the first clue (which is not WWWH imo), goes beyond it establishing where to start and is why I believe Mr. Fenn quoted T.S. Eliot. I know that’s oft been repeated here and elsewhere, but usually in the context of “we end where we start”, as in, the poem takes you full circle. Maybe it does, but not in the way we’ve let ourselves interpret it. We don’t physically end up where we started, we end up metaphorically (or symbolically) where we started. If that makes sense.

      • nmc;

        I agree, wwwh is NOT the first clue. I once thought that Stanza #1 was the first clue, I no longer think that.

        Every riddle that I have ever read starts with a question. Why not start this riddle with a question? – – – “So why is it that…?” How can one start at the middle? Well, if, as you say, the poem is a circle, does it matter where on that circle you begin? You will end up at the same place.

        Forrest has also said,”“If you don’t know where it is, go back to the first clue.”f SOOOO, start at “So why is it that I must… and go all the way through the circle, if you have not found Indulgence, start over again, this time looking for new and possibly deeper meanings to the same words…and keep doing that for as long as it takes to either find Indulgence, or you have exhausted each and every possibility at your location…then move on to a new area and do it all over again…a thousand times if necessary.

        It is my belief that IF you solve the poem correctly, you will know quite quickly IF you have found the correct location, because ALL of the clues will fit without forcing them to fit.

        I know that this is “Out there” – but Forrest also said, when it is over we will all ask, “Now why didn’t I think of that?” Just mutterin’ JDA

        • @JDA If “it” in Mr. Fenn’s comment “If you don’t know where it is, go back to the first clue” refers to the treasure, why would “going back to the first clue” help? Is he advising us to start over (from scratch), or suggesting that something about the first clue will help us identify the blaze?

          • I see the process much like a spiral. Each “lap” around the poem takes us from a large geographical area to a smaller, then smaller, and then even smaller area.

            Paraphrasing Forrest says something to the effect of a small destination in a large area.

            Let’s take “In the wood” as an example. Maybe “lap” one “ITW” = the Rocky Mountains. Lap #2 ITW = a National Forrest. Lap #3 ITW = a Grove of Junipers and Lap #4 = a single Juniper tree. Get my point?

            Every line in the poem MAY not change with each lap, but many CAN, until you are at the desired 10″ square spot.

            “Water High” could be the same way.
            You might go from an alpine lake to a waterfall, to a stream that is a tributary to your creek to a spring high on a mountaintop. Lots of possibilities.

            Yes, you MAY at some point have to start all over, or possibly not. Possibly you just need to look at your search area in more than one way – tighten the focus – but remembering the “Big Picture”. Hope this helps – JDA

          • @JDA I think I understand what you’re saying – the clues take us in ever decreasing, concentrated circles; each representing a different level of understanding of the clues. I do believe each clue has different levels of “meaning” attached to them, so certainly something to consider.

      • nmc,
        WhatIF… we travel the clue [ yes, botg ] and at the end we need to turn around / look down and gaze at where we just came from… another words… we need to go back to the starting point because we now know…”“we end where we start”

        Or another WhatIF.. we never travel the route, but we see the waters route and realize we can not get closer than we all ready are… which gives credence to the searchers who were there at the first two clues, walked past, the remaining clues and the chest.

        There might be even a third idea here… we are stand at the blaze to start and now understand the beginning is in the far distance and we see the clues coming towards us as we already are at the end.

        Too much imagination? Not enough straightforwards? IDK… just thoughts some might like to consider.
        At this point in time, I think 99% of the searchers could walk right over the chest and not even know.
        We’re overlooking something, and it could be a simple as, we are reading part or all the poem incorrectly.

        “I’m not flippant about this. It’s not something somebody is going to be able to do on spring break or a Sunday afternoon picnic. I’m looking a hundred years down the road, maybe a thousand years down the road. ***People don’t understand that.”

        “Several months ago some folks correctly mentioned the first two clues to me in an email and then they went right past the other seven, *** not knowing that they had been so close. Alas, and dame fortune, so often a fickle and seductive wench, never spun her wheel to lure them back.”

        *A good solve is frequently lost in a poor execution
        *Complacency is the misuse of imagination
        “…A lot of people who are searching for the treasure don’t see it the same way I do…”

        No one has any secret information that will take them to the hiding place. It’s in the poem for all to see.f

        ‘nobody to my uncertain knowledge has analyzed one important possibility related to the winning solve.’

        That last statement should be making many ask; what could be that important possibility?

        • @Seeker I think it’s a good idea to consider more than one interpretation to “end where we start” reference, and I don’t see yours being “too far out there” (like some I’ve read). Different vantage points offer different insights to the clues, and it’s unlikely (imo) that Mr. Fenn only considered one. Again, imo, he probably considered far more than one, and that’s what’s leading people down different paths in the various search states.
          As to the “important consideration” that no one has (or had) considered – the fact that he drew attention to it suggests it was something he thought would be self-apparent. Makes you wonder just how “under our noses” it is (or was).

          • ncm,
            Lets face it… fenn made this difficult. although he probably did have others to bounce of ideas, like we have, he managed to make a 24 line poem contain information that could have been placed in the book itself over 147 pages. Just by choosing the avenue of a poem should tell us word usages could be many… information is in ever word, etc. And we have been told as such.

            Yet, you do bring up a good point that he’s ‘surprised’ nobody has pickup on the important possibility. Leaving you to think it might be obvious and right under our nose… Lets have a look at what we have heard about;
            first clues in stanza one or stanza 2, even in stanza 5 or 6.

            First two clues deciphered, indicated etc. yet searcher, by fenn’s count, didn’t know.

            Possibly the first four have been deciphered, yet fenn is not sure those/the searcher know either.

            I mean, what is it that is going haywire? All I can come up with…
            reading the poem wrong, and /or reading the understanding of the process wrong. But one thing I’m personally certain of … it all falls down to the start. it seems just deciphering that clue is not all that is needed to be understood about the clue.

            What would happen if fenn came out tomorrow and said… 6 clues have been indicated, but those who did don’t know it…lol. [beside, the paranoid, and foot club members would go nutz].. Would that important possibility be about how the poem is to be read straightforward in a manner that flows in a different light than the way we have seen these solves?
            A different perspective of viewing the clues.. a different perspective of reading the clues [ which is actually first and why ]

            Most don’t like to talk about those WhatIF possibilities, maybe because they would feel they wasted so much time thinking wrong or researching… but something, maybe under our noses, is not talked about. For me, that is being stuck in first gear going no place fast.

          • I posted something on this link at 10:57 AM that relates if anyone is interested. JDA

  32. Farterwall and flutterby – I think there’s more than one key. Or those could be random, meaningless thoughts. One or the other I’m sure of it – IMO.

  33. Jake…thank the ever loving gods…that is not/was not/will never be me.

    • LOL ken,
      I’ll remember that.
      I wish you guys would have avatar that was a little more unique than the given one.

      There is a ken from Texas as well.

      Just upload a pic of something as your avatar when there are multiples of the same name.

      Or have a unique name.

      Goofy may let you extend your stage name so we don’t get confused as much.

      • not happening Jake. I’ve been ken since almost the beginning of this here blog or something like that…and that is who/how I will go out . The others can do what they want.

  34. Seeker…my first clue takes the wonder out of the bread….it is more than an indicator clue. It pretty much gives up the enchilada. Fenn says it gets easier as you get closer (paraphrased)…but do you really believe that?

    • Ken,
      That’s a very good and important question… the only way I can answer that is… the first clue’s complete understand should kick off how easy or hard the rest might be.
      That is, if we’re being honest with ourselves.
      We don’t know how hard any of this truly is… maybe that is why we’ve been told it’s difficult nut not impossible. Kinda kills the KiSS idea out the window.
      Even fenn admitted that he did not know..
      I knew from the beginning where to hide the treasure. It wasn’t until later that the clues were provided to find that spot. I don’t know “…that the poem will lead someone there,” as you asked, but the poem does provide everyone with that opportunity. f ”

      Well ken, how would I know if they get harder or easier…

  35. I don’t know but I think that meek – means seek- if you are at hob and he sends you below- so from there – hob- its no place to seek -i don’t see anything that would be for the meek- cause all there is from hob is wwwh -the end is ever drawing nigh – there’ll be no paddle up your creek – just heavy loads and waters high- i don’t see anything there why its no place for the meek – from waters high you go to the plaze – this is what im thinking and its just an opinion

    • Frank…have you actually gone there? Or are you just commenting on what you can see on GE? Very little appears the same when actually onsite.

      • Ken I have been there once – but I couldn’t go all the way cause of my copd – but I found everything on ge before I took off I got as far as where I parked and had to put botg but not enough oxygen for me hob wwwh the blaze were not places to stop and search they were just markers that told me that I was going the right way so I drove through until I got to in the wood where I parked

        • ps. so why would it be no place for the meek if you don’t stop there to seek its just my opinion

  36. JDA ~ “then says, “and for me now, that is TOO FAR TO WALK!” TFTW = 10 miles – PERIOD!!!

    We also have been told that there’s a clue in the ‘second’ book.. being Canada is out of the picture.

    Fenn also stated; Forrest: My new book, ‘too far to walk,’ in my preface I explain where I got the title to the book….

    Male: Coming from the online site again, I’ve been asked to ask you, how many people have told you they’ve discovered the unintended clue in ‘too far to walk’ and how many were right?
    Forrest: I haven’t had anybody tell me the answer to that clue. If you read my preface it doesn’t take a genius to figure it out, I think what they’re talking about. There are clues in my new book that can help a person. Did I answer that question? Did it have two parts?

    Ok, this is where it get confusing for me… We’re told all the information to ‘find the chest’ is in the poem. Told the book TTOTC has hints that will help with the clues in the poem… Then told of more clues from the new book tftw ~ one in the preface, apparently, and Canada eliminated from the map in the back of the tftw book.

    OK, without having either book [ read TOTC ] [ did not read tftw ] I can’t recall if there is any reference to 10 miles on the Madison river.. in TTOTC. IF 10 miles is such an important piece of information to solving the clues in the poem… where in the book – TTOTC or In the poem can this be found? I would think there must be a connection to this as an answer to NFBTFTW. Either within the poem [ all the information yada yada ] and /or in the first book, or other wise there was no chance of finding the chest to start with [ or at least very little chance IF NFBTFTW is actually a clue ]

    JDA… how do you make a connection from the poem for distance and / or the first book? That would be very important in my mind.

    • Seeker;

      You bring up an interesting point. “How do you make a connection to the poem for distance and/or the first book?”

      A two part question. Q1) How do I make a connection to the poem for distance?”

      Since I have not (as yet) found the treasure, I can offer no proof, but I can offer supporting information.

      I have said for several months that I feel that”The wood” has an obscure meaning that directs me to a specific, definable geographic spot in Wyoming. With this knowledge, I can then look for a wwwh in this vicinity.

      I was able to find one with little effort. From this location I had to “Take it in the canyon down” a particular distance. There was only one direction to “Take it in the canyon down” – I took it.

      I was then told to “Put in below the hoB”. I found a spot that matched this description. It turned out to be almost exactly at the 10 mile mark.

      A coincidence? Maybe, – – – or maybe not. For me, finding a “Logical” hoB at almost exactly 10 miles downstream from wwwh has been proof-enough for me…until I DO find Indulgence. Could I be wrong? Certainly I could, but then finding a “logical” meek location within a short distance from my hoB, and then finding several “logical” ENDS – and then finding a very “Logical” blaze has all helped to support my assumption that I am on the right path, and have “Read the map” correctly.

      Q2) Have I found support for my 10-mile assertion in TTOTC – Not yet, but I am still looking.

      Thanks for the question Seeker. Have a GREAT Memorial Day, and thanks to all who have served. JDA

      • Well JDA,
        That should sent up a red flag in my opinion. It doesn’t matter how you came up with wwwh or a canyon in your theory, as to what a distance is from that point to hoB… what seems more important is know the distance to supposedly find hoB.

        You said you found an obscure meaning… was that found in the book or the poem? I ask because if hob is 10 miles from it and you knew it was ten miles because of the length of canyon traveled… it seems that none of the clues references came from the poem or the book… which brings me back to NFBTFTW… it would be a wasted line if all that was needed was to find ‘the canyon’. And at the end of this 10 mile canyon is hoB.

        You might be seeing the problem I’m seeing… Even IF the poem is only descriptions of the area… the book them must give us information that tells us where that is… if the book only helps a clue, then the clues in the poem must tell us the needed locations, distance etc.

        My point to all this is… IF the tftw book holds clues that were not in the first book or the poem, and can not be confirmed by the first book and the poem… what is the need for the second book, as you stated; “then says, “and for me now, that is TOO FAR TO WALK!” TFTW = 10 miles – PERIOD!!!
        For that to be factual, accurate, and not a guess… The poem or the first book must relay that somehow, not an outside source.

        IMO, it’s one thing to eliminate a location the chest is not ~ Utah, Idaho, “Canada” after the fact. But to add a “needed” piece / clue/ information 3 years after the fact, seems to be a big screw up from the start.
        That’s a hard pill to swallow since fenn spent so much tome and effort and thought of everything and planned it all out over a 20 plus year time.

        So, what I think we might have here is a none clue, or more of a suggestion, that between these points in the poem is a distance and that distance doesn’t matter in feet or miles.
        We have a clue that should have been in the first book or the poem and overlooked [ I personally doubt that ]
        We need to find out from the poem, and / or the [1st] book, the reason for the distance and not just know it.

        It just doesn’t make sense that we find hoB and ‘then’ discover the distance [measurements] by reverse engineering back to the previous clues reference to understand NFBTFTW as a clue.

        Fenn basically stated as such… If you know what hoB is, why be concern about where warm waters halt.. I’ll add with reasonable logic..or any prior clue, including NFBTFTW.

        So why the heck is there a need for a clue add on [ involving the peom ] in a separate, after the fact, second book? That as baffled me since the comment in the video of 2013.

        • Seeker;

          You bring up some good points. What I hear you saying is why even have the line NF, BTFTW?

          For me, it defined my area of search, once I had found my wwwh. Without this “Limiting parameter” I could have gone “looking” down my canyon for 100 miles or more. With this limiting parameter, I had to ask myself, “How far is too far to walk? I came to the conclusion that for a 79 or 80 year old man, that was probably less than twenty miles. After more research, I settled on 15 miles – more or less.

          So, I felt that my “Put in” spot – BELOW hoB had to be within about 15 miles or less of my wwwh spot. Having this limiting parameter, I could focus on a much smaller area. IF I could not find a logical “Put In” spot within my 15 mile radius, I knew to move on to a different area. Since I WAS able to find a logical “put in” spot within my self-imposed limit of 15 miles, I could proceed. When I then got my copy of TFTW, and saw that Forrest had said 10 miles is now too far to walk, that was just conformation to my theory, and when my “Put in” spot WAS 10 miles – icing on the cake.

          Long answer but for me a logical one. Forrest (in my opinion) did not want people making 100 – 200 mile trips down canyons looking for a logical hoB, so he established the “Limiting Parameter” of NF,BTFTW. By doing so, he kept MOST people away from LONG perilous down-canyon trips. Just my thoughts – JDA

          • Without getting into a long post… some folks just fell out of their chairs, lol..
            I get what you said about a need for a parameter. Using don’t go where a 79 – 80 yr old man can’t…

            Shouldn’t that distance already be within the poem or the first book, or other wise, we are looking high and low, guessing to where the next clue ‘could be’? with no real reference… a capability of one person to another is a guess… add age into the factor and we have all kinds of guessing.

            I’m lost on “follow the clues precisely…” to the treasure part ~ Just prior to the poem.

          • Not sure that I know how to answer your question Seeker. Everything is found in the poem, but imagination is more important than knowle(d)ge. The poem took me to a spot in Wyoming. The poem told me what to look fort in this area. The poem told me to “Take a canyon down” – a particular distance. NF, BTFTW, and then to “Put IN” BELOW the hoB. I am not sure that I follow your question. To me, if Forrest had made it any clearer, Indulgence would have been found two weeks after the poem was published.

            Read the poem over and over and over again, and then use the book to find HINTS that will help you decipher the clues. Use the knowledge found in the poem, but use your imagination in finding new ways to interpret this knowledge. We are all given the same “knowle(d)ge (Facts presented in the poem) how we interpret this given knowledge – through our imagination – to me is the key to figuring out the riddles. But what do I know? NADA JDA

          • Interesting points and counter points on the NFBTFTW dilemma. Not that it really matters at all…but…I just do not understand why the search for Fenn’s treasure progressed up to the point of the release of TFTW with assurances from Fenn himself that it was doable with the Poem, TTOTC GE and/or a good map.
            Fenn released his new book TFTW and the rat race kicked into high gear. Map, new possible clue, unintended clue…and to this day he pretty much exclusively refers to TTOTC as the go to book.
            The real killer for me is why would he write a new book to add clues or give answers to such after taking great pains to repeat everything most of us have heard for years now. To name a book TFTW and then right in the preface give a fixed distance (10 miles) does not make this a factoid or even realistically a possible hint.
            Fenn has stated that he is ambivalent about the treasure being found in his lifetime…why would he have an about face and make himself look less than what he has taken great pains to make us believe so far?
            The mileage he stated works in my theory…but it did before this came out and even if I moved to a new location…that distance mark would not sway my decision. The clues are in the poem and the hints are just that. Hints…not answers.
            Could be that he felt the need for a “limiting parameter”…but from all he has said over the years…it comes back to …”…it is out of my hands now…”. Fenn has made comments about safety in the mountains and posted SB about such…and other search tips…I just do not see this man throwing a bone like that into the shark pool he has created without knowing beforehand what he was doing. Sounds like a non clue/hint with a big twist of irony attached …

          • Ken-

            You wrote:
            “I just do not understand why the search for Fenn’s treasure progressed up to the point of the release of TFTW with assurances from Fenn himself that it was doable with the Poem, TTOTC GE and/or a good map.”

            I don’t really understand your statement.
            Are you saying that the treasure should have been found before TFTW came out and the fact that it has not is confounding to you?

            or are you suggesting that there was no reason to publish a second book? If so I disagree…

            1. The new book is a memoir. It therefore contains stories told by Forrest about his life. No matter it’s purpose, it is highly likely that one or more of the stories make some kind of connection to the chase since this event is something that has been part his life since at least 1988 and represents a goodly portion of his available time. So it seems logical that within the telling of one or more of those stories there could be a hint…none-the-less…hinting may not have been the books purpose.

            2. Above all…Forrest had more stories to tell and his first book did well proving that people were interested in reading about him…another book was justified in his mind.

            3. As long as folks are interested in the treasure they will be interested in knowing about Forrest. His books are the foremost and long standing method of reading his stories.

            4. The books will be sold and/or resold making readers aware of his life for generations…Once they are printed they do not require a substantial investment to maintain.

            5. Blogs come and go. They cost money and time to start-up and to maintain. Many blogs centered on Forrest have already disappeared. This one could disappear tomorrow. The books will likely outlast the blogs.They have been distributed all over the world. They will survive.

            In short…the books contain information about Forrest and will help to illuminate his life for future generations and hopefully inspire kids to get off the couch. Whether they contain hints or clues may not have mattered to the author.

          • Jeeez Dal: “This one could disappear tomorrow”
            I hope not.
            Please let us know a day or 2 before it’s disappearance so I can get a crawl of the site & put up a static one as remembrance.

          • The point JDA, is prior to the release of tftw many interpretation came from the poem about that line.
            It could be a clue in and of it self. Could be part of an overall clue.. sentence. Might not be considered a clue at all…

            You stated fenn said that’s the distance, Period… I say then it must be within the first book as a hint or in the poem itself to be factual.

            Ken, explanation, or thoughts, seem to have the same dilemma. Why would it be a needed clue now if not then {2010 vs. 2013}

            It’s not about your solve or anyone solve… it’s an attempt at analyzing what we had to what has come out after the fact.

            Like I said before… it’s one thing to eliminate a location vs. giving a *”clue’s answer”* 3 years later.
            Then again, for all I know… with all the after the facts comments, statements Q&A’s interviews etc. fenn could have given us the entire solve already.

            LOL.. and I would still ask; Why would he [ in apart or whole], after 20 years of prior planning the whole shebang, and with a million plus at the finish?

          • Seeker;

            You are trying to confuse me, I think.

            You say, “You stated fenn said that’s the distance, Period… I say then it must be within the first book as a hint or in the poem itself to be factual.”

            To me, this is not logical. The 10 mile distance may, or may not be in either the poem, or hidden somewhere in TTOTC. It is a fact that three years after publishing TTOTC and the poem that Forrest published tftw, and in the preface stated that, “Now for me, that is too far to walk.” Those are facts. – He published tftw, and in the preface he said that, “Now for me that is too far to walk.” Just because these same words do not appear in the poem or in TTOTC does not make these facts wrong.

            Forrest has said that he has no real interest in when the chest is found. I take him at his word. On the other hand, possibly Forrest saw that too many people were going too far astray and decider, three years after publishing the poem, to Limit the parameters a bit – the same as when he said it was between 5000′ and 10,200′ or not in an outhouse or mine.

            He decided to limit the distance traveled by a typical searcher to around 10 miles from wwwh to hoB.

            How is this different than limiting travel to nothing above 10,200’….Information that is NOT in the poem, or in TTOTC?

            I MAY be wrong, but I just see this as a “Limiting parameter” like a lot of other – after comments that Forrest has made.

            NF,BTFTW, to me, was already a Limiting Parameter, all that Forrest did was make it clearer. WHY? I guess we will just have to ask him once Indulgence is found.


          • Both you guys are confused.
            & that goes for the other 99,998 searchers including myself.

            Simple question, is if all the info is in the poem where is 10 mile clue or hint in there???
            I don’t see it.

          • Dal…My first sentence explains what the gist of my reasoning is. The thread was about NFBTFTW and my point was about not believing that Forrest specifically wrote a second book, TFTW, just to tell us that NFBTFTW is 10 miles. Maybe he did…but I think not.
            Like you…I believe Fenn wrote the second book to give the audience more of his life experiences and certainly extend the interest into eternity.
            Thanks for your blog and hope you have a good Fennboree and after search. Over and out.

          • JDA,
            If it is “now” tftw then, would it be reasonable that the poem says; not far, but to far to walk to mean exactly the same. TFTW even then. The “now” doesn’t change the fact tftw is in the poem.

            The problem is you said it’s the confirmation to your solve that 10 miles is the distance… I’m not trying to confuse you or anyone… I’m trying to figure out if, that is a true statement… IT MUST be within the information we had from the start… somewhere in that info.

            Otherwise, it’s not an answer to that supposed clue. or there was a big opps… and again, I doubt the opps is even plausible.

            For me, and I would think anyone, to take that seriously… the answer to, how far is too far to walk? is later told to us, just doesn’t make sense to having all the information, from the start?

            If you can find something within the poem or the book that could collaborate 10 miles to be the answer… I’m all ears.
            Because… in 2009 or 10 ~ tftw could be 15 or 50 miles.

            The again, you could be on to something… fenn is giving us answers to clues. Why I don’t know, but hey, it’s always possible. I’ll just sit here and wait for the next book called; ‘Comfortable Waters’ or ‘All The Riches You Want To Know About But Were Afraid To Ask’.

          • Seeker;

            I will try one more time to state (at least to me) the logic behind my deduction.

            What are we given? 1) we are told to “Begin it where warm water’s halt. We, (the searcher), had to decide what that point was, either from information given else where in the poem, from information we gleaned in TTOTC or by throwing a dart at a map. However – we have “A” wwwh location.

            Known fact #2 – “And take it in the canyon down” – we are told that we are to follow a canyon “down”. This could be “SOUTH” or lower in elevation,(Or both) but DOWN.
            The next logical question is how far should the searcher follow this canyon DOWN?

            We are given “Information”, NOT facts. We are told to follow it “down” the canyon “Not far, but too far to walk”. This distance is subjective. “How far could the average 79 or 80 year old man be able to walk “DOWN” (Not UP – which would likely be shorter) this canyon. A TOPO map or Google Earth can give us information regarding the rate of descent in this particular canyon. It could be precipitous, or it could be quite flat.

            How steep are the walls of this canyon? All data that can be easily found. Once having digested this data, for this particular piece of real estate, one can make a reasonable guess how far an 80 year old man could walk. Let’s say that calculations turn out that Forrest PROBABLY could walk 15 to 17 miles downhill in this “canyon”

            “Not far, but too far to walk” says that Forrest needed to walk “SOME” distance, but that a distance greater than 15 to 17 miles is improbable – not impossible, but improbable.

            So draw a circle or arc, starting at wwwh, and mark off an area at or near the edges of the canyon DOWNSTREAM at say – sixteen miles. Somewhere within this circle or arc, one now must find some logical place where one can “put in”, that is BELOW some place that COULD be a hoB.

            IF such a place can be found “Mark the spot on the map”, and “Put in”.

            You did NOT need to know that this spot turned out to be at exactly 10 miles, you only needed to find “A” spot where one could “Put In”, that was BELOW a place that one could deduce was a hoB.

            Critical needed to know information was 1) a likely wwwh location
            2) a canyon that went “DOWN”
            3) a distance that is LIKELY the maximum distance an 80 year old man would or could walk (in a day).
            4) a likely place to “Put IN”
            5) that was BELOW a place that one could reasonable figure out was a hoB.

            The NF,BTFTW distance COULD have been let’s say anywhere between 1 mile and seventeen miles, and still met the criteria of NF,BTFTW.

            One had to use logic, knowledge, and imagination to make the pieces fit. The 10 miles absolutely did NOT have to be spelled out either in the poem or in TTOTC.

            Having figured out where my “Put IN” point was BELOW hoB, and having measured it, it turned out to be almost exactly 10 miles. When I read in the preface to TFTW that Forrest said that 10 miles was now TFTW, this was just icing on the cake. I did NOT use this information to FIND my spot, it just (for me at least) reinforced what I had found.

            I hope that this is a bit clearer. JDA

          • JD, best case scenario IMO, you return home w/ your enthusiasm intact & miraculously your house key still works

          • JDA,
            This is all for a discussion purpose only… no digs or confusion meant.

            It was your statement that 10 miles from the tftw book is the answer to “not far, but too far to walk,” line in the poem. [ you made that quite clear that is what you think, Period.

            It’s not about your solve or how you went about attempting to use your ideas of how an 80 yr old could walk down a distance… by the way… he needed to do that twice, and warns us that we need to as well. It’ about a second book three years after the release of the challenge to find the chest… you claim fenn is giving tthe answer to a clue in the poem.

            This is one of those times someone should ask, why? if true. You basically came up with a distance through thought… great!, but to say it’s an answer to that thought, calculation, imagination and fenn hand fed this answer years later, has me baffled.

            That is why I asked if there was some confirmation from the poem or the first book?
            Again, if another searcher stated the same exact wording you did, and there solve was in MT, NM, CO, Mars… I’d be wonder the same… How can this be an actual answer to part of a poem we were challenge 3 years prior to figure out… when all that time he has repeated, he will not give out a useful clues. We all have the same opportunity, and when directly asked if having both books would help, he answer ‘only’ with TTOTC book.

            “Is it an advantage to buy The Thrill of the Chase and Too Far to Walk?
            There are hints in my TTOTC book that can help solve the clues in the poem.”

            With the opportunity of that question, it would seem more than likely to have included the TFTW book as an advantage If answer to a clues was in it…

            The more I think about it… the more this might be a none clue and/or time is involved. Too far to walk back in time, line of thinking. Or WE [ a searcher doesn’t need to travel down, up, back down and return up in one afternoon.

            Thanks for the chat JDA.

          • JDA, Seeker,…..Maybe TFTW 10 miles is the unintended clue. He didn’t intend to spill the beans about NFBTFTW. He didn’t write the book to give out any clues.

            But why did he provide a map that shows the exact search area? Isn’t that a clue in and of itself?

          • ManOwar,
            The unintentional clues was explained as an oversight of the map makers leaving out Canada, supposedly not notice till after/or during printing… even the dust cover of the tftw book was only prepared a day or two before printing. [Dal took the pic of the river – the shadow added later ].

            Anyways, how would fenn not know he wrote the title to the book and added the words ‘now, it’s to far too walk,’ unintentionally?

            As well as statements like; it’s out of his hands.. or If found today or 100 years from now he’d be ok with that. And other comments made, even after the release of the tftw book in 2013.

            Don’t get me wrong, any information from the second book is welcome by me… I am only trying to think of, if or if not, a clue from the tftw book is actually a needed clue ‘that answers’ a clue from the poem.
            I personally don’t see it that way with all the comments to date.

            Apologies if some were bored reading all this… I was just dissecting and digesting information.

  37. I found HOB first, then several other clues before figuring out WWWH. I found WWWH by searching (GE) in the vicinity of HOB and confirmed it by other statements Fenn made and from the “canyon down”. After doing so, looking at the phrase “too far to walk,” a distance jumped out at me. And it checked out as the distance from WWWH to HOB. TFTW can be read “2-4 to walk,” or 24 miles, if you walk in a straight line from WWWH to HOB.

    But you don’t have to walk it or even go there at all, just find where it is located and continue following the next clues on a map or GE. The only place you should really have to go to is where the last 3 or 4 clues are located. Botg helped me to find the Blaze but it shouldn’t be absolutely necessary.

    The poem alone can lead you to the chest but the other information just confirms you are right.

    In my opinion, the book TFTW doesn’t have any confirmation hints in it except for the “unintended clue” and it is a GREAT hint. It’s not in the Preface and it’s not the elimination of Canada. You probably won’t recognize it unless you have solved at least the first 2 or 3 clues. When you know what it is your search area will be dramatically reduced. IMO

  38. Is it me or does anyone think that its in a river or not? I want see if my logic of elimination of the chest to be in water…lol…holds water ….or not. I just dont think its in water. imho

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