Odds n Ends About Fenn’s Treasure Hunt…Part Twenty Eight

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dal…

772 thoughts on “Odds n Ends About Fenn’s Treasure Hunt…Part Twenty Eight

  1. As we start a new OnE page please remember that this page is for discussions that do not have their own page…
    Too Far to Walk has its own page…so does Home of Brown and many other topics I see creeping into this page.
    Please look at the Searcher’s Discussions pages and make your comment on the most appropriate page…not the handiest..

    Thanks

    • Ride the cumbres toltec scenic rail way while reading the poem. Chama new mexico.

        • Beautiful landscape that doesn’t seem it has been touched. Since the 1800s. I feel the treasure is in chama nm. Not far from wolf creek pass. The train lets you see areas a car won’t. So take it in the canyon down.

      • Last time I went to Chaco was with my daughter in October ’15 – we took the Alamosa-to-Dulce route (rather than my usual Raton-Taos-Espanola).

        The country around Cumbres Pass was absolutely gorgeous.

        JAKe

  2. Who thinks its in water or not? iIm curious to discuss my reason of why it is not in water. imho of course.

    • IMO, The reason it’s not water is because Forrest has said that wind could effect TC where the TC lies. I believe he said this on one of the questions on MW. The question was (paraphrase) what elements could most effect the TC, earth, wind , fire or water. Look it up if you want the exact quote. What is your reason why it’s not in water, Texas gold?

      • It also cements the fact that it’s not buried; for how could wind effect it if it were buried? IMO

        • Ever see the after effects of a tornado through an open field or tear up asphalt? The chest could be buried and lift out with this type of winds.
          As fenn has said; “nature make her own rules.” There is no absolute rules. If a hot-spot beneath the hidey place was to surface… good-bye chest [fire]

          Sure, these events might be rare but not impossible… some say the chest can’t be in YS park because if the caldera erupts the chest would be destroyed… lol.. I’m pretty sure if and when that happens, worrying about that little chest will be the last thing folks will think about.

          The most important factor to where the chest lays in wait is, fenn’s original thought and possibly future thought… was to die there. IMO… where looking for a place that can ‘reasonably’ hold the bones against most normal conditions as well.

          Can “in there” be an indicator to such a place?

          • edit; ‘where looking for a place’
            Where was supposed to be in ” ”
            “Where” ; as in situation; circumstances in which one finds oneself; a state of affairs…the location and surroundings of a place.

            Keeping both “in there” and “where” being the place he lays at rest, a secret; hidden.
            [ in theory anyways ].

          • pdenver,

            Fact of the matter is a long with that great sense of humor, his assessment is likely to be right on!

            Where’s that fish net!!

          • I concur. I wonder if you’ll be able to distinguish the catch and keep, from the catch and release trout, my friend. 🙂

          • His bones would not be in the water…in the same location for long.
            I see the same if the chest was buried or covered, or just sitting on the ground. Throwing himself on the treasure…larger critters would scatter the remains over a broad area in no time. So…”in there” may be an indicator of sorts.

          • I have thought about this comment, about his intent to leave his body there and have a feeling we need to be careful about how we interpret this. Yes he said what his original intention was. Connecting this comment to the fact he confirmed the place was the “exact” location in another comment. But I would be careful how we interpret exact. Especially in context of the quasi recent conversation about what a “geographic location” is and if the ninth clue is one. Then by definition the “spot” that represents the ninth clue would have lat/long but can be larger than a pin point. It could be an area with a defined boundary. And he could say that it was the exact spot and be entirely accurate in his comment while still “shifting” the exact lat/long coordinates of the resting spot from what he originally contemplated. Just an idea that the exact resting place may have shifted once he decided he would not leave his body with it.

          • pdenver,

            Dad wouldn’t like this, but it wouldn’t matter. I’d release all of them.

          • You would? I think that’s great! I think I’d be a little tempted to keep one and cook it in memory for all the times I’ve fished in Yellowstone.

          • Clee,
            We have another indicator… “precisely” to mean exact. We are old of a ‘spot’ that hold a 10″ sq chest.
            IMO, the spot, might be, with the idea of “in there” and “where” to be a place that is confined [not a mine, cave, tunnel] but relatively protected.

      • fallen trees and limbs…..they can catch on the chest and tip the contents out. remember…FF is the one who had to place it…so it would have to be shallow….trees and limbs falling up stream could open it ….because they are not like boats they are more like iceburgs.the heavier branches are always on the bottom…and the jar has air in it and it would float away

    • In my poem solution it is above ground ,covered noticeably and creatively. Water erodes everything over time, IMO.

      • Bronze lasts 1000s of years in any invironment and so does the contents of the TC

        • I am talking about the ground, the ground under the water will erode in depth. There is depth , debris, minerals, chemicals etc. Plus supposedly you can ‘ walk’ right to it and not miss it from 12 feet away if you do some research this has been spoken of.. IMO of course.

          • Greetings and salutations to all the Veterans out there. Thank you for your service to our Country.
            FF had said- and I’m paraphrasing: “I never said that I buried it. I never said that it isn’t.”
            I am under the belief that it is in a relatively flat area, perhaps in a field of tall grass or wildflowers, and even surrounded by trees. Such a location would be far from the danger of being buried by a rockslide, or dislodged and moved by melting snow.
            In a field, surrounded by grass, flowers and trees it most likely will get covered by leaves and plant life that fill grow up around it, thus over time it can essentially become buried- much like that burial marked FF found in that field back in Vietnam.

    • I try not to assume many things but I had always secretly believed the chest is not going to be in water. But assumptions are dangerous things and I beleive I will end up being wrong about this one. Call it intuition.

  3. If FF left Indulgence in or near water he would damage the wooden liner that is unless he sealed the chest with a scant of tar
    IMO.

    • Actually the worst enemy of wood is sunlight, pests, and oxygen, not fresh water, fresh water would actually preserve the chest better than exposure to these other elements.

      “In archaeology, waterlogging refers to the long-term exclusion of air by groundwater, which creates an anaerobic environment that can preserve artifacts perfectly. Such waterlogging preserves perishable artifacts. Thus, in a site which has been waterlogged since the archaeological horizon was deposited, exceptional insight may be obtained by study of artifacts made of leather, wood, textile or similar materials. 75-90% of the archaeological remains at wetland sites are found to be organic material.”

      “The major archaeological problem with waterlogged finds, particularly wood, is that they deteriorate rapidly when they are uncovered, beginning to dry and crack almost at once. They therefore need to be kept wet until treated in a laboratory.”

  4. The chest is unlocked, and the jar with his bio is in the jar would be filled with air…glass would flow out and it would ne gone if a tree fell and grabed the box even if the TC lock iis facing down way warter???? i dunno…ohhhh and also…that wax…i wonfder what type it was to seal that …also..lol…ff said he thought of evr thing from fire to landslides to whater…i guesss im just pondering

      • yes..since there is no lock on it….a limb a a tree or whatever….moving water and floods could open the contents to be released with out a lock on it. i mean water can move a 1000 lbs tlree….water is the strongest force on earth

        • I must be the only one who believes that the chest is sealed, not locked, against moisture to protect the contents. IMO

  5. Good point M-o-W!

    Also, how could fire be a factor if it was in water?

  6. I do think, however, it could be partially exposed to the elements like snow and rain.

  7. moving water and a tree falls or branches can take you out if it hit you andbranches and logs are not boats…they are like an iceburg when floating

  8. No mater what FF said it would be there for a 100 years
    or a 1000 years. so to me some of the clues have to stand the test of time..imho

    • I juat dont get searchers that look for blazes on trees , or water or land slodes, or animals….he gave us a clue when he said he thought of everything

      • sorry for all my post jumping threads…its been a long time since i posted

    • And don’t forget not all the clues were there when he was a kid (so they had a beginning) and are not associated with a structure. What in the world could a clue that represents these three characteristics mean?

      • I believe he said most of the places that the clues refer to were there when he was a kid. The clues most likely didn’t because he had not invented them yet.

        • Yeah that is one way to think about it which could be correct. The other possibility is that there is a clue in there that has some different characteristics.

        • Another side thought to Fenn stating that most of the places the clues refer to existed when he was a kid…
          In this statement, if taken in context…Fenn is openly admitting that the clues refer to places. Another aside, is the word “most”. It seems that one or more may not have existed when he was a kid. Another indicator ?

          • Ya ‘ta Hey-O, ken –

            I agree with your interpretation on several counts.

            The clues didn’t exist until he created them.

            One or some of the places the clues refer to may not have existed when he was a kid (there have been dams built and reservoirs created since he was a kid; there have been a few big natural changes in the Rockies since he was a kid – terrain-altering earthquakes and landslides, to name two).

            Clues have some form of geographic location again in a recent Q&A:

            (from Jenny Kile’s MW · April 5, 2017)

            Dear Forrest, What’s more important in solving the search, a greater knowledge (“knowlege”) of Toponymy or Geography? ~Chris

            I don’t know how Toponymy can help you at all Chris (I had to look that word up). But if you knew the geographic location of each clue it would be a map to the treasure. f

            JAKe

      • IMO…some of the clues refer to a place that had not yet been designated a (national) park.

        ~Wisconsin Mike

  9. It’s pretty obvious to me it’s in water.
    Your effort will be worth the cold.
    Look quickly down,
    Your creek,
    Water high……

    • Jake,
      Where’s the obvious?
      Worth the cold… if cold involves temperature, in any seasonal conditions water can be warmer that the air around.
      Many think warm waters is a hot spring… that also might be connected to water high.
      Look quickly down doesn’t give any emphasis for water.
      Your creek… added with, “no paddle” could mean no swimming.
      Water high, while could mean water, doesn’t really indicate the chest is in it…
      the next part of the poem tells of a found blaze. Is water high a blaze?

      Maybe you could elaborate how those parts of the poem obviously mean the chest is in water?
      I mean, I have plumbing [hot and cold water, drainage, basin, waterfalls, dammed water etc.] running from one end of my home to another… but my wife’s jeweler is not in water.

      • Let’s see,
        “I know the treasure chest is wet.”
        “physics tells me the treasure is wet.”

        The 3 times sealed olive jar – one would have been enough with microcrystalline wax.

        Everything in the chest (from what F said is in there) will not be affected underwater.

        Won’t stumble upon, happen upon with all those hikers & hunters out everywhere.

        Been to elevations around 8400 in Montana & it was about 80 degrees there. Hazy hot & dry. If the chest was in the open in a grass field or even in some groups of trees it would be dry as a bone in the desert.

        Let’s talk about cold when it’s in the 80’s in the Rocky’s.
        At night it goes down into the 50’s & sometimes the 40’s & 30’s but you really don’t know if it will get down to a temp where you are cold.
        I can say for sure the water in the creeks & streams & ponds are cold & you will be.

        “How can anything be in the Rocky Mountains and not be wet,”
        Go for a hike on a hot summer day when it’s been dry for weeks.

        The most compelling evidence is in the poem.
        “As I have gone alone in there”
        Where has he gone alone in there?
        Few bathing spots come to mind.
        Some warm, some hot & would bet some cold.

        BIWWWH – waters
        You begin there in the waters & would make sense to end it in waters as well considering this is the 1st clue & without it you got nothing.

        Most if not all canyons are created by water.

        Put in – boating or canoeing term.

        No place for the meek – could be water.

        Your creek – water once again – even a dry creek was created by it.

        Water high – aint talking about clouds here, so get your head out of them.

        Look quickly down – Either about timing or water.
        You cannot hold your breath to take a peek slowly.
        How long can you hold your breath?
        Got to be done quickly.

        But tarry scant – don’t wait around, your wet & cold & a nice hike back to the car will warm you up.

        Your effort will be worth the cold – This guy is talking about real cold OK, not the feel of bronze, gold, night time temps, whatever.

        He’s talking about getting wet & cold & I will eat my hat if he did not hide it in water.

          • Thanks Mark,
            I had read your comment & decided to leave those details out that you mentioned. Yes, the water will actually preserve wood better than the other elements you listed.

            There are pools of water with small creeks feeding them in the higher elevations where it would be difficult to get to flood stage & raging because they are near the source of the flow & melt in the mountains.

            Only so much rain can affect the flow at these higher elevations.

            We were born in water & is the gift of life.
            Without it, we don’t exist in this world.

            There’s water in the poem & he put it there for a reason.

        • Jake, what are your thoughts about the clasp on the bracelet? I thought I read there was a concern for that, but could be wrong.

        • Nice Jake, well thought out imo. So, does this mean you are basing your solution/solve on a previous bathing spot of FF? Just wondering.

        • Ok Jake…
          Throw himself on the chest.
          Planned to die with the chest. “Just take the chest and leave my bones and go in peace, or something like that” {a prior wordings / draft of the poem}

          Stated the spot the chest is at is the same spot he planned to leave his body.

          Are you going to tell me it doesn’t rain or snow or have dew or cloud or fog at 8400′ or above?

          Physic tells me the treasure is wet… you seem to neglect the “How can anything be in the Rocky Mountains and not be wet,” ~ ‘even if something is buried 6′ deep’ part of the statement… very convenient.

          But the one statement you never talk about is;
          “Probably wet” ..that means at some point the chest is “probably dry”

          How about leaving the key inside because he didn’t want someone prying open the chest and ruin it… sure, just place it in water for …all time or until it’s found… no worries there.

          Yep, the poem talks about water. So the blaze must be in water as well, right?

          He didn’t want to die in a hospital… wanted his body to go back to the earth. The same spot as the chest.

          I’ll add this part of a Q&A comment for interpretation; “Although I am not ready to say the treasure is not in water, I certainly didn’t want moisture to enter the jar…”

          These are all fenn’s comments over the years… you enjoy saying, fenn says he knows the chest is wet… well, maybe it rain that day where the chest is at. Maybe snow was on the ground… I’m sure he can look up the weather in any state just like we do.

          I can’t proof it’s not submerged, But is seems to me if, we probably retrieve it in any weather, we shouldn’t need a chainsaw to cut through the ice.
          I sure hope you bring three changes of clothes when hiking… you know.. for those two trips and several hours of walking.

          • Could Fenn’s comments about the chest being wet (at one time or another) refer to condensation, or the physics of gravity relative to moisture?

            ~ Wisconsin Mike

            (giving a lot of my research away here…Fennboree must be near)

          • Throw himself on the chest in water.

            Bones are not going to stay in the same area no matter what.
            There are sure to be scavengers around that will scatter the bones.

            The weather & conditions are ever changing. Are you OK?
            Of course there is moisture & precipitation above 8400′ Duh?
            Don’t let the fog in your mind see the obvious.

            “Probably wet” does not mean that it was “probably dry”.
            It’s all about probability.

            There are many places you could put the unlocked chest in water & not have to worry about the water opening the lid & you will not stumble upon it.

            Even if it was buried, there are places & earth you could bury it & would stay dry at times.

            Ya, he looked up the weather radar on his smart phone when he made the comment of it being wet. LOL.
            What exact time & date did he make those comments & I’m not talking about when they were published….

            When has he ever said the chest is dry?
            Never.
            Goodbye.

          • I know creeks that run thru trees and I would throw my bones on it Not a fast creek and in summer creek is a little stream Great place to die haha Maybe he wants to be reincarnated as a trout lol lol

          • Funny how you mention that Dig,
            I do believe he did want to give back to the rivers, streams, creeks, that sustained him & his family for years.

            Full circle.

          • Jake ~”Throw himself on the chest in water.”

            HAhahahaha… Man you just beat out the alien egg theory for the most idiotic comment… So, fenn’s plan was to take a handful of sleeping pill and do a swan-dive on to the chest. OH! Wait, wait! Maybe he was going let himself fall asleep then sleep in to water [ man did he think of ‘everything’ or what! ]

            You said; “Probably wet” does not mean that it was “probably dry”.
            It’s all about probability.

            Uhh What?!.. what color is the sky in your world… fenn never said it was buried, only hidden, but that doesn’t mean it’s not buried ~ but he never said it was submerged in water either… so it must be in water?

            Probably: almost certain. As far as one knows or can tell…
            I would think the guy who hid the chest would know for certain if it wasn’t “probably wet” if the chest was submerged.

            There’s a big difference between wet, probably wet, and in water, right? But now you want the guy to say it’s “probably dry”

            Mr. Fenn,
            Was the chest wet or dry when you hid it in your special spot?
            Thank you… Mr. Alwett

          • Let me get this straight.
            My comment about F throwing or flinging himself on the chest in water is more ridiculous than the alien egg theory.
            OK
            I think you have been watching Ancient Aliens way too much & it shows in your writings.

            It could be this or that or maybe even this. Have you thought about the other thing. What if, what are we missing it could be the alien egg.
            Or maybe it’s this way over here. No, it may be this. How about this.

            You remind me of the idiot betting at the roulette table, that had all the same chips down on every number on the board.

            When his number came up, he jumped up & said “I won” like an idiot.
            He never realized that all the other numbers he had lost.

          • I don’t know about the alien egg theory but I believe in aliens more than I do that FF left the chest in water.

          • Say…let’s just all have a shot of pickle juice and agree that it’s sour?

          • Paraphrasing, but didn’t f say the chest was exposed to all the elements? Doesn’t get to windy underwater… Fire would have a tough time too. I guess it could be possible to be under a seek-no-further tree hanging over part of a lake with a receding water line. Still, would not be subject to the wind. Tough sell the chest being underwater.

          • I don’t remember him saying all the elements does any one else R.E.M where he said that

          • It’s “probably” one of the most talked about quote… Well, next to… ‘how can anything in the RM’s not be wet…’

            “Mr Fenn, in relation to the final resting place of the chest, which of the 4 natural elements (Earth, Wind, Water, Fire) would mostly compromise it resting? ~ James”

            “I know what the question is. I don’t think earth can hurt it, under the right conditions wind might affect it, it’s probably already wet, and look at what fire did to the twin towers. Nature makes her own rules, James, so I try to not be absolute when talking about her.”

          • Thanks for posting that well if wind can effect it it ain’t burried

        • Hey Jake, just a question. Nothing into it, just a question. Do you believe f has talked about the end site in one of his stories? Like, he talks about Yellowstone and a lot of people think it’s in Yellowstone. He has a story about Hebgen, some think it’s there. Some people think he has never mentioned the spot in reference to his stories, that he would never give possible information to the spot.(except the poem solve).
          Just curious. For me, I don’t think he would mention the area in any of his stories. Like the trek with Donnie, 50 miles away from where? Maybe something like that, but not the area it’s in. Everyone would flood that area, just like Yellowstone, etc…I don’t think f would do that. Too easy.
          So, which camp are you in? And again, just a simple, curious question.

          • charlie: “Do you believe f has talked about the end site in one of his stories?”

            You need to be more specific in your question.

            End site could be in the Rocky’s. So, yes.

          • Do you believe f has commented on the area the chest is in. Example, he talks a lot about Yellowstone, Hebgen Lake, etc… or do you think from all the stories he’s told, he has not even referenced an area the chest sits in? Basically, do you believe he talks a lot of the area or not too much. No big thing, just wonder where you sit with that.

    • only if u believe that to be a clue…maybe it is or maybe it osnt isnt….i dunno

    • “Water high” is either (1.) a lake in the mountains (high) or (2.) waterfall (high) imo. 
       
      Just because your “effort will be worth the cold” doesn’t mean that it’s in water.  Cold could mean that you have to be in cold air temperatures (at elevation or perhaps near water high) or simply to cross a cold creek to reach it.  There are thousands of potential waterfalls and cold creeks in the Rockies – considering snow melt.
       
      I have one other potential for “look quickly down”.  When someone is up high climbing what do people tell them?  “Don’t look down!”.  Saying “look quickly down” could simply mean they are up at high elevation and the view down isn’t one that you should look at long as it might scare the heck out of you.
       
      Finding a waterfall or high lake is key IMO.  Then, finding a location where the view would require “look quickly down” is another key IMO.

      Stay Safe! Don’t go anywhere a 79 or 80 year old person can’t go….

      • Covert 1, Water high could be a geyser or a raincloud or a snowcap. Snowcap reminds me of a floating hat over a bald head.

          • Hi pdnver, Raincloud could be the name of an Indian who lived in a brown teepee atop a rocky cliff …. My imagination is too expansive. I never solve anything. I just watch others. Actually, I once had a teacher, a Dr. Rainwater. Warm waters and high waters need not be water at all. Good luck to you.

          • Raincloud could be a person, living in a teepee, atop a rocky cliff. The one thing I noticed in your original comment is that you didn’t capitalize the “r” in raincloud. I know Mr. Fenn capitalized “B” in “Brown” in his poem, and I truly believe there is a good reason he did so. I tend to think of the things we were taught in school.

          • Ya got me Pendever … ‘Rainwater’ (capitalized) isn’t in the poem, ‘High water (not capitalized)’ is in the poem as a reference to Rainwater (the person). Rainwater was a fine artist — now dissipated/ deceased/ashes. Her brown teepee is also the icon she blazed (look down) on the bottom of all her fine pottery (her signature stamp).
            Well, you get it… unlike a surveyors chain, the imagination links needn’t ever end, They just ever draw nigh.

          • With what you have posted, how do you figure in the capital “B” in “Brown” for the lowercase “b” in “brown tent”?

          • Gosh, I’m not sure if my question came out as I had hoped, OS2. I hope you know what I mean. It’s the capital “B” in “home of Brown” which strikes me different when understanding your explanation for the lowercase “b” meaning the brown tent.

      • “Your effort will be worth the cold” could simple be saying… effort; to take on the challenge, execute the plan of the solve, retrieve the bronze chest [ cold – hinted in the book? ] “cold” to the human touch.
        “If you are brave; meaning, to take on a challenge.. “and in the wood” opening the chest revealing the wood line interior… “I give you title”.. written authorization of ownership.. “to the gold” Riches of the contents of the entire chest, and not so much only the metal.

        Effort “worth” the cold.

        • Did FF not say “warm” meant “comfortable” to him? So maybe “cold” means “uncomfortable”.

          “Your effort will be worth the cold” might mean that the area we need to go thru is not a walk in the park. It might not be a clue but a confirmation when you are in the area.

        • Effort “worth” the cold. To take on the challenge. The starting point? Seeker, are you suggesting stanza 6 might be where the 1st clue is located?

        • Has there been discussion about the high desert, also know as the “cold desert”?

          ~ Wisconsin Mike

          • Wisconsin Mike,

            I’ve been ‘talking’ about Wyoming’s Red Desert as a solve til I’m “blue in the face.” You’ve brought related conversation into the ‘big’ picture and it’s very much appreciated.

            I would ask you and others to read the following article. It will best explain the existing, ongoing dire ‘situation’ of the Red Desert.

            I have a very strong sense that The Flyer has been right on top of the situation, and has been supportive in the preservation of this ‘natural treasure.’ It’s imperative, now more than ever, to be involved in the ongoing plight to preserve and protect one of the most beautifully “special” places, and IMO, one of our planets most sacred treasures:

            http://www.hcn.org/issues/163/5290

            SL

          • Thank you for the link, SL. It’s sad to see what they’re proposing to do. If things like this continue at the rate they’re going, we’ll be hiking through a forest of oil wells, rather than, a beautiful walk through the woods. This is an opinion, offered as a thought.

        • Hey that’s pretty good thinking the cold could be the bronze chest cause like u said bronze is cold to the touch Hmmm

        • Seeker-

          What I have found most compelling about the cold = chest argument is the seemingly out of place logic in the sentence. That something that takes from you (effort) is worth something unpleasant (cold). Usually you would expect a positive outcome for the effort in a sentence like that. Like … your hard work is worth the money you make. Or … the reward you receive is worth the time you put in. As is the sentence reads … all your hard work is going to be worth it because you get to be freezing afterwards. It makes for a strong argument …. not that I necessarily agree with it.

      • One more thing that is easy to misinterpret: the phrase “up your creek”. Considering the reference to “water high”, I believe “up” your creek could mean vertically up a creek – in other words, a creek that has flowing snow melt “up” a mountain where the water high lake or waterfall is located.

        Of course there is “no paddle up your creek” – one cannot paddle up the side of a mountain. IMO

        • Let’s say “hypothetically” there’s a location near a mountain lake, up high, that has a steep cliff from a “rock” outcrop….and there is a narrow opening between the rock and another rock….a narrow opening that goes about 17 ft down. At the bottom of the opening is a small spot that has water (snow melt) flowing but not all of the time. It was easy to lower the chest by rope into the opening but very difficult to retrieve the chest from the opening. And the location contains a configuration that would not allow the chest to be removed horizontally….only vertically from above!

          Now, one can SEE the chest with a flashlight but has to figure out how to retrieve it!

          The location has been and likely will be there for millions of years….and technically “not buried”, just hidden. Also, the view is spectacular at this location.

          Also consider the space has enough room for a person’s remains to rest – without any risk of an animal or the elements coming to take the remains away! ….and the rock configuration has some features that would make lowering a climber almost impossible.

          Any thoughts on this hypothetical example and how to extract a chest in such a situation?

          Thoughts above…..IMO only.

          • Covert One,

            Thanks for a great “hypothetical”….

            Perhaps there would already be a ‘device’ of some sort to assist you at the location; or directions somewhere a long the way to be ‘discovered’ that could assist with the potential retrieval once you arrive?

            Imagination could well play a major role.

          • Covert One,

            I don’t believe you understood what I meant by “device.” Am sorry if I confused you. By device….I was actually thinking of something on the lines of a heavy rope, etc. ( Providing that the content in question was substantial).

          • SL – I see your point now…I’m easily confused!

            Actually, this helps much as a mechanical device might be just what is required – something like those tongs used to lift blocks of ice. The weight of the block keeps the tong grips tight.

            This might just do the trick…hypothetically and IMO.

          • Not my thought covert one, but fenn’s;
            “If you can find the treasure chest it won’t be a big job for you to get it”
            Torg n Elliot 2:55 minutes.

            Although, I like the idea of a narrow passage, and one of the meanings of creek. I think it’s more difficult to actually find the chest than retrieve the chest.
            Retrieve means; recover or bring something back… so, we want to ask, bring back from where?

            I think there is work to do… I’m not sure what that work is… it could be as simple as viewing an alignment of sorts that shows us where the chest is at..hidden out of sight.. only to be retrievable at a certain time of year.
            Your two rock passage could apply in this manner. But i don’t think we need anything.. rope, shovels, metal detectors, mine sweepers, or superman’s X-ray vision… just tarry for a bit.

          • Covert One, I don’t think FF wants it to
            be this physically difficult for the clever
            solver to retrieve the TC. All IMO.

        • Covert 0ne wrote – “Of course there is “no paddle up your creek” – one cannot paddle up the side of a mountain.”

          I’ve thought Pole Creek Mountain would make a great double-pun location for “no paddle up your creek” to refer to.

          (not much sage to sniff around there, though)

          JAK3

          • I’ve often wondered about the river rafting store in Cañon City called “LOST PADDLE”

          • I’ve often wondered about the river rafting store in Cañon City called “LOST PADDLE” It is close to Rainbow Street, to Grape Creek (FF liked grape soda”.

          • My searching led me to that area for completely different reasons, never noticed any of your findings, think I’ll have another look. I seen a little puddle off 120 west of where 50 and 120 meet to the southeast of canon city before Pueblo. Still want to see what that tiny island is when I zoom in on GE. Thanks for sharing 😉

          • SL,

            I don’t think there is any electronic device near my hypothetical spot but, certainly, imagination must be required! IMO – I don’t think any electronic device comes into play from FF, just plain and simple work and imagination.

        • Maybe heavy loads and water high are one in the same? Not something else that is heavy but the water that is high…
          A Glacier fits that description well. Heavy and made of water in a frozen state [ cold?] at high elevation.
          A glacier is also called an ice river, as it’s movement flows down inches/feet over time and creates canyons. Not far, but too far to walk, in time.
          No paddle is obvious, so is the word creek twisted, bend a little, to make it work with the poem?
          The end of the glaciers are drawing nigh… water melt or drainage and lack of new snow etc. or the end could be the moraine left behind, when the glacier was larger… or a prior glacier long gone. A comprehensive knowledge of geography might help?
          The poem is a map, but what are the details?

          The real question is where do we start… warm waters halt being warm when frozen and the frozen water take it in the canyon down.. creating the canyon…
          It all fits nicely until we hit what hoB might refer to.

          Oh well, just thoughts.

          • Seeker,
            “Where do we start…”? Start looking for the trail to Indulgence, or start the entire search? IMO, the first clue is the first stanza..it tells us the general vicinity. Once you’re there, “begin it where warm waters halt,…”

            ~ Wisconsin Mike

      • “Water high” could refer to a water tower used to refill train water tanks. Many of these towers exist all over the Rockies, some in remote, abandoned places.

        • Jim-
          There is an nice old engine water tank in West Yellowstone about a half mile from where Fenn Haven used to be. But it and it’s surroundings have been pretty thoroughly searched over the past six years.

          • Covert one,
            How do we find the right state? and for what?
            is it where the chest lays in wait or the first clue[s], all the clues?
            I ave heard so many theories about the “treasure state” “New and old NM”
            “Why [y] WY”
            “Water high, RM high CO” and others… how can we be so sure of the state?
            I mean, if we knew that… there be no threads/conversations for the other three remaining states.

          • Seeker,

            You said “How do we find the right state? and for what?
            is it where the chest lays in wait or the first clue[s], all the clues?”

            So here are the answers:

            How do we find the right state? Figure out the poem correctly!

            For what? For what all searchers are looking for – the chest!

            Is it where the chest lays…? Of course!

            IMO

          • Covert one,
            You’re saying once we have a complete correct solve will know what state… ok. I was just wondering if the state is a clue in the poem.. to know before completely solving all the clues.

            My ~ question for; what reason, was for the clues inquiry, but in your solve it seems all the clues are within the same state… ok.

            But, wouldn’t it be funny if the chest sits smack dab in a boundary line?

          • Seeker,

            I never mentioned the number of states my solve is in or whether it’s only one or more.

            Good luck to you in the search!

      • Everyone ages differently, but my active, tall and lean, Swiss, Mother-In-Law is 81 and she cruises! She can go just about anywhere I feel like going except with more caution, a little bit slower and with a walking stick. Stairs are no problem. Climbing (where you need to rely on the strength of your quads) is out of the equation . The Swiss are known hikers. The only things that are a little off appear to be her muscle strength and balance and…well…now she’s got Alzheimer’s so her memory is not all there. I bet an 80 year old Forrest could scoot!

      • I lost my snorkel in the Firehole near Ojo & is probably in Hebgen by now.
        I hate to litter & always bring out trash wherever I go.
        I still got my flippers.

    • I just think that with ‘architect’ and ‘archaeology’ being spoken of and themed in his history and mention of writing style; that these would be involved in the final act of hiding. A ‘signature’ so to speak. I surmise that if a person is close to the spot ,say within 12 feet of it, that it would be rather ‘creative’ that I would think to myself , ‘ oh, well isn’t that obvious’ . I think it is covered and how it is covered would not go unnoticed- a rather sort of obvious signature of style. IMO. Ground level ,not in water.

    • Hey man, here’s the problem with Indulgence being in a creek.

      High water season. What might be a babbling brook in the late summer is a raging torrent in the spring. It’s very common for large rocks and boulders to be swept downstream every year. We’re in high water season right now, and sadly someone lost a child yesterday who slipped in a creek and was swept away. In a creek, not a river.

      I’ve watched hundred pound boulders get pushed downstream. Indulgence wouldn’t stand a chance, even if wedged in. Creeks are just too dynamic.

      A neat trick is to take a length of PVC or other pipe and stick one end against a big rock (or bedrock) underwater. You’ll hear the sounds of rocks tumbling in the water, with the occasional easily-recognizable “big one”.

      • Yes, it is not just about the direct effect water has on Indulgence being submerged; it is more the effect about within its placement. Canyons can be created by earthquakes and the continuous flowing of water usually. Moving water is one of the most powerful landscape changers, designers. Pretty risky variables involved if it were to be placed in moving water; let alone being able to see it being right at it if it is submerged. IMO. I tend to think that this creative created chase would have a uniquely created finish. Marvel gaze at such a sight an artist would appreciate-a signature earthen piece. IMO

        • Texas Gold,

          I also agree. Take 100 years of flowing and abrasion in a fast flowing creek or river and that can erode just about anything – including rock and metal. Look along the sides of rivers that flow along rock. There is a cutting effect of the water in the rock. Not to mention the force of the water during spring melt can move cars, rocks, or whatever else gets in its way.

      • Hey dude,
        You do realize there are a few spots you can put a 42 pound chest unlocked in a creek where Mother Nature won’t affect it in 10K years.

        Anything is possible in water.

        • Anything is possible in water- high risk probabilities rampant due to calculated assessment of risks to the idea of it being in moving water . IMO. 🙂 I think the place is a spot that he told his dad about only. Not in his books, stories or anywhere. It is a place where those two keep a secret.

          • I’m not sure about that Alsetenash.
            I think this is his place alone & he was the only one there.

            Keep in mind he was a fishing guide at 13 & worked for the forest service clearing trail & I’m pretty sure it wasn’t New Mexico or Colorado , maybe Wy but defiantly The Treasure State.

            I would have to say the place where he was going to rest his bones for eternity was only known by him.

          • Here, here Alsetenash, as revealed in Winter Thoughts, I was always criticized and almost booted for that exact comment, sometimes people just need to believe you are on to something as yet unbeknownst to others.

            Tom T

          • Thanks Tom. Lots of water references in the poem. I just don’t think it is in water. I think it is a special place, nice and private. Though not way out of the way, just far enough for seclusion. I haven’t read the winter thoughts and will check it out.

            I like the simple complexity of this poem design. It gives everyone everywhere a chance.He has given a plethora of clues and hints post production. Any more direct hints and clues from him, I feel, just may be as a demolition derby to the spot lol. Everyone has the same words to work with; the more vague the better chance for all. Imo

          • Lol. Demolition derby… can you imagine the chaos?! Some of these states allow guns. I wouldn’t want to be racing to the spot with the 7%ers, bear spray, knives, and loaded weapons… personally I find that more dangerous than the wildlife.

          • Yes, so true. I am a city person but worked in the bush. I tree planted in mountain areas in my youth and other things over the years. Had a couple of wild life standoffs with black bears, moose and coyotes. Of those, the coyote was the longest and most difficult situation. When I go searching I am taking a strong folding shovel and a knife. The shovel is small sturdy sharp on one edge and serrated on the other. I don’t need the shovel for digging but it is a darn good weapon for close encounters with wildlife . Plus, with the shovel and knife being metal , banging them together scatters wildlife. The sound of metal banging is a good warning presents to animals. Worked well tree planting whenever we saw or heard a bear- we banged our shovels together.

          • Thanks for the tip! I had a large knife(for diggin) and a can of bear spray on my belt. The hilt of the knife dented and almost punctured the bear spray while I was hiking. What a show the critters would of got had it blown up that day. lol

        • Hi Jake – You apparently read interpret the poem differently than I do. I don’t see the poem saying the chest is water and I can imagine F doing such a thang. Forrest has teld us to us logic at times and placing the chest in water doesn’t seem logical to me. Maybe you see something we don’t.

          • Jake – Should say “read/interpret” the poem. Also should say “can’t” imagine. Typing too fast to keep up with thoughts. If the chest is in water then we are all doomed.

          • You contradict yourself quite often Hma,
            Seems like we all read the poem differently & I like that.
            If we all interpreted it the same way there would be no fun in that by design.

          • Jake –
            “You contradict yourself quite often Hma,
            Seems like we all read the poem differently & I like that.
            If we all interpreted it the same way there would be no fun in that by design.”

            I couldn’t agree more. You might be surprised at how interesting the poem actually is. Enjoy.

          • I am glad you used the word “might” Hma.
            You’re learning.
            Just remember, we don’t got the bronze bich.

    • I don’t think it’s in water Jake but I used to.
      My thought was since “the meek shall inherit the earth” Fenn was hinting that it’s not on the earth (ground) so then it must be in water?
      Maybe someone could suggest some good ‘hat’ recipes?
      🙂

      • My hat has plenty of oil, salt & vinegar so it would make a great salad.
        Keep your soup A.

  10. Fenn…u evil coyote you!!!!! ….i went and looked at the weeks radar that showed the rockies…and its covered…but one front did have rain….iwhile the bigger front was up north behind the first one was all snow….but the rain band front on the 2 of feb 2015was srating to hit all of nm and co….everything up north was snow….hmmmmmm
    i was never a nm guy but to me he narrowed it down….imho

    • Texas Gold, maybe take a moment to reread what you typed. Your messages are incoherent and appear to be referencing things from 2 years ago? Are you using voice recording, if so stop, please?

      • please dont read my posts…sorry…im on an ipad mini and it makes mistakes. and please move on

      • Thanks Tbug for your note.

        I was starting to think that “Texas Gold” should have been called “Texas Tea” with some of those posts!

        However, I’m not sure that I could type on an ipad mini either. I have plenty of my typing scrambled on a full sized keyboard!

  11. Mr. Fenn also said and I do not remember where but, he asked someone what the hot water had done to the chest. Does anyone remember where that question was asked by him? I of course do not believe it was put in water it would somehow get destroyed. It is in a relatively safe place and in almost plain site. IMHO!! As we all wonder who was within 200 feet of it and close with BOTG!! Still in the chase, Ms. Girl Happy Memorial Day!!!

    • MS girl, I believe you are thinking of an instance where Forrest was calling out a hoaxster who had said that they had found the Chest.

      If I remember the story correctly, someone called Forrest on the phone saying that they had found the chest. Forrest asked them if the hot water had caused any damage to the chest, to which the caller said something along the lines of “thanks for the hint!” and hung up.

      Funny story, but I don’t think anything of significant worth.

          • Hi Alsetenash! Sorry for not replying earlier; I just returned from a (non-Chase-related) vacation out to Durango in Western Colorado. The drive out and back gave me a good idea of current conditions, especially going over Wolf Creek Pass (10,856 ft. elevation).

            The snow is doing a good job melting, though it’s still prominent on the higher mountains. Exposed, treeless areas are free of snow and it looks like south-facing slopes are completely melted out at about 10,000 ft. North-facing slopes and shaded areas are melted out at about 9,000 ft. Rivers are running very high and it’s a great time to view waterfalls in their prime (I did stop by to take in the view of Treasure Falls on the west side of Wolf Creek Pass. Beautiful!). Eastern face of the Front Range is melted out well above 10,200 ft. (I hiked up to Barr Camp last weekend, which is at that elevation and only saw a few tiny patches of snow).

            Keep in mind that these observations are primarily from the southern portion of Colorado fairly close to the NM border; I can’t speak to how conditions are further north. Summer is definitely starting to push its way into the high country!

          • Thanks Blex, much appreciate the details. I imagine the Rockies are similar across the spine in every state.

          • One of our daughters is a NatPark backcountry ranger, and she’s at Rocky Mountain Nat’l Park this season.

            To supplement Blex’s report, she says that for the northern part of the Colorado Rockies the snow is pretty much gone up to 10,000 ft.

            And yes, the rivers are running hard right now.

            JAKe

    • MS girl:
      Here is the link to what you inquire:
      https://youtu.be/EsTdZRwnydw

      24:30 shortly of this mark of time in it. He was just giving examples of funny calls to him from people claiming to have found the chest and his joking around responses to them.

  12. Alset, the quote you mentioned is the correct one that I was referring to. You are right in that when typing the with bold font it creates a thicker font and not a capital. We know that Fenn looked up meanings of words. One meaning of bold is: having a strong or vivid appearance. I am suggesting that the B stands out in the poem.

    I could be wrong of course, but just have a hard time reconciling in my mind that Brown is the name of something and this is the only other reason I can see that it would be capitalized. If all we need is the poem and a good map that would suggest that Brown is either the name of something found on the map, or the poem should tell us what brown is. I like to believe the poem does.

    As far as how it is a clue and helps us get to a location. Put in below the HOB to me just tells us that we will park the car and start walking in the direction of the chest. Put means: Move to or place in a particular position. Bring into a particular state or condition. I believe that we know the location of where to park and start walking by other indicators in the poem.

    Nothing in the Brown conversation is related to my word that is key. The word that is key for me unlocks other things that help me determine what to look for on a map and I do not need anything brown the help me determine where to park.

    • Thanks for the response Aaron. I am not one that believes in luck. So, it is with great humorous intent that I say:

      Good luck to you on your search. 😉

  13. waters high I think is elevation and direction – go north to the end of the water where you will see the blaze imo from hob its all north meaning the farther north higher the elevation

  14. imo this is what I think means north
    put in below
    waters high
    quickly down
    worth the cold
    but it just my opinion

  15. My opinion for what it’s worth. You will be below elevation. Water high is either a lake or waterfall or even snow. Down maybe “down into” a shallow cave or grotto. Worth the cold? 32 degrees on a map? You may start WWWH, but you may end up crossing the creek were it becomes colder? No Paddle? Maybe an oar or is it ore (mineral/gem)? Remember all clues must be lasting throughout time as well as the chest. I don’t believe a chest could withstand the elements being submerged. And if a child could solve it, there should be no obvious danger or threatening circumstances to the challenge.

  16. Spent yesterday hiking around Two Ocean Lake. Not a soul there except us. Absolutely gorgeous view. Road in closed “they say” because of mud, but there was no mud! Heard today roads in are closed because grizzlies are all over that particular location with their pups and use the road to get to the lake from Oxbow. We saw one male about 75′ away, and he saw us ! Be safe out there. Bring bear spray. Very little snow at 7200 ft. Loads of snow on mountain tops. Oh…and my husband is an athlete and he was tuckered out–we only got 1/4 around the lake after hiking the road…

  17. in my way of thinking – I think that the chest its self is not wet – but I would assume that its in a container that is water proof and that part is wet – but I don’t think its under water year round

  18. Your effort will be worth the cold. Only thing cold is the water year round

    • A seasonal temperature can also be considered “cold”.

      Maybe it is a time of year that this refers to.

      I know in the spring and in the fall, there is less foliage on the ground. Maybe it is a hint to reflect upon this time period, so you are not hindered looking behind bushes or shrubs.

      “Cold” could be a reference to a northern state…..CO, WY MT are all “cold” states i many regards.

      Cheers and good luck to you.

      • Are you saying we should search for the treasure in the winter when it’s cold? That’s when it will be worth it?
        New Mexico isn’t cold….

        Now I know you’re out of your mind & body.

        • No I am not saying what you are asking….

          “Are you saying we should search for the treasure in the winter when it’s cold?”

          I said…
          “A seasonal temperature can also be considered “cold”. Maybe it is a time of year that this refers to. I know in the spring and in the fall, there is less foliage on the ground.”

          Meaning, during the spring the winter foliage is just starting t o come back to life.

          In the fall, the foliage is dying.

          Both instances can be utilized to find something faster, due to less obstacles to view through…..brush, weeds, grass, overgrown limbs, etc.

          It seems logical that “your effort would be worth the cold”.

          And you are right…..I am out of my mind and quite insane.

          Thanks for YOUR vote of confidence in me.

          :o)

          • “Seasonal”
            The four seasons come to mind & winter is cold.

            Foliage has nothing to do with temperature when it’s 80 deg out after the leaves have fallen.

            Don’t fret, Tim.
            Most here are insane but you seem to be one of the leaders in that field.

          • Well, considering you seem to be reading what I write…..I’ll keep on writing the nonsense so you can continue to read it, comment upon them, and clearly voice your concerns with my thinking.

            As you were.

          • I read just about what everyone wrights here with all my subs.
            Obviously I delete 99% of them.

            We have conversed in private before & respect your intellect & the area you’re searching.

            I do consider us online friends for the hunt & don’t want see you go down a path that is a dead end.

            Oh crap.
            That’s what where looking for.

          • Hi Jake.

            “We have conversed in private before & respect your intellect & the area you’re searching.”

            Well, I appreciate this response.

            We have? I’m sorry, I don’t remember. Was it through a different name?

            FYI – Jake – I don’t lie. There is no need for me to do so.

            Anyone can take anything I say out here with a grain of salt if they choose. Some may not. Some may hang on every word I post. Some may not.

            I really don’t care.

            I post to help others…whether it will or not.

            Of course, I am hoping for a special day to be mine and only mine, but right now, I understand each and every speculation about my own searching techniques and theory can be cumbersome, or “different”. I like it that way.

            I found my techniques and “troubleshooting” methods to be very useful…..and will help me to retrieve the chest from its resting place because of it.

            Good luck to you Jake.

          • F your short memory.
            Ænema – Tool
            I have your email address & saved all comments & replies.
            You gave it to me. Don’t you remember?

            I will not pub it here but I will send you an email there now to refresh your short memory.

            You did say this though:
            “LOL Tim,
            Don’t worry, I’m not stalking you yet, I’m just waiting for you to get closer to the chest & then I’ll be on your heals.”

            That’s private until now.

            Learn to swim.

          • I guess old age is setting in sooner than I thought.

            Tool….nice choice in music. I guess all of my USN drinking days have literally taken my memory.

            But I do remember that quote….so it isn’t all lost yet.

            :o)

            How close you want me to be?

            I do have a target area of about 50 ft.

            I’ll be packing too. Did I tell you I am a Chinese style martial artist?

            Now you know more about whom you are up against and can be prepared when you get to my heals…or….they get to you first….*smiles*….

            Good luck Jake.

            Keep it unsophisticated…I am.

            And don’t forget about the misdirection within the poem, too. Okay? I want you to find the trove after me.

            :-o)

          • Glad to jog your memory.

            Utilization is the key here.

            If you cannot utilize, you got nothing.

          • You’ve seen what I am “utilizing”…..

            But what really is utilization? How we apply ourselves in trying to answer the clues? Maybe how we apply the poem to our technique or theory? Is it related to the function or mechanics of what we read in the poem?

            Lots of different things.

            Plan and observe seems to be more important than utilization.

          • I hope your solve has a geographical canyon in it.
            Many canyons have cliffs.

          • Water creates canyons over a long period of time.

            Not every canyon has or involves a cliff.

            Not every canyon has water in it.

            Many canyons are not identified as a canyon in the RMs.

            So, why are you worried about a cliff?

            If you can marry geographical locations to the poem, why worry about if there is a cliff involved, until you actually have a successful marriage.

            Like I said….my solution doesn’t have a cliff involved.

          • Never mind the cliff Tim.
            Where’s this misdirection in the poem?
            You do know a misdirection is intentional.

            The only misdirection’s I see is in the searchers mind that creates it.

          • If you cannot see the misdirection within the poem, then you really haven’t dissected the poem.

            One example of misdirection is the word “down”. Multiple meanings…..which clearly shows the many directions a reader can go.

            Another – “nigh” – we can glean about three of four different definitions related to the one word……as with any of the words within the poem.

            This all is categorized as “misdirection”……because it surely isn’t a poem that has clear directions. It is intended to last a 1000 years. In order for it to do so, it must include misdirection.

            You can see it with “NF,BTFTW”…..we know it is a distance, but how long of a distance…..the misdirection is clearly taking charge with this clue.

            You have to move past the words in order to understand their meanings.

            Difficult as it seems to be, it can be done with patience and diligence. One needs to allow for those traits to take charge and not force them to conclude.

            Cheers!

          • What you say Tim, may be true.
            But, I’m pretty sure our minds are our worst enemy when it comes to the chase & life at times. Not his.

            When are you & your crew heading out to get the goods?
            “Only a fool believes himself 100% with no proof”
            POOF!

          • Tim: “You have to move past the words in order to understand their meanings.”

            What?
            Maybe I should ask – What are you smoking?

          • Different thinking always seems to draw out this question….

            “what are you smoking?”

            MJ of course. Only the best!

            I will be the only “stoner” that will solve this puzzle.

            ;o)

            Did you ever think that one must be stoned in order to do so?

            Probably not, huh?

            I’m thinking outside the box.

            ;o)

            Good luck to you!

          • So what does “move past the words in order to understand their meanings” mean?
            Pass the dutchie on the right hand side.

          • Thanks Jake. From what I can see from here it does look doable. At least this time I have an exact location and not search all over around the blaze place idea lol. It looks like I can get to it .

          • Be patient Alsetenash,
            Wait for the runoff & snow to be low.
            Your area can wait till it’s searchable & I’m sure there aren’t many there searching.

          • Thanks Jake. Runoff is not my areas concern, for that is isolated by natural design in the area not effecting mine. Just snow on the ground is the stickler to my spot, getting to it that is. I think the snow is gone or minimal at best. Still just planning when to go because I do want to be sure.

            You don’t think many are searching my area? Really? I am not entirely sure how many, or if any . I always think that if I can think it, so can someone else lol. I could be close to your area 🙂

          • I don’t think we are searching in the same area.
            I’m in the Gallatins, more specifically the Madisons.

          • Not sure of your expression lol. But I am not near where your area is of search. Rather far away I am.

          • Hey Jake.

            “move past the words in order to understand their meanings”

            There are 166 words in the poem. “Not all of them are useful”, thus many words are stated as that are read literally.

            But others – many words as we know – carry a different meaning.

            We see the words, but think we know the meanings to them. FF told us we need to be “studious”, even though he was not.

            If one understands the meanings of the words, they can thus understand the flow of the context of said words.

            “move past the words in order to understand their meanings”

            Cheers.

          • That was good!
            Really good.

            Sorry, not what you said, just my dinner.

          • Good?

            How do? I don’t follow?

            It was great!!

            :o)

            Seriously, it was what I said….see….misinterpretation runs rampant within the minds of many.

            “move past the words in order to understand their meanings”

            Also included in this is that misdirection I’ve spoken upon.

            Remember…FF wants this to last.

            I don’t have the chest yet, so we know it is possible.

            Are you ready to join Seeker and I up here in Difficulty-land yet?

            :o)

            Good luck.

          • Speaking of misdirection, does anybody believe that from WWWH the canyon down could be back in the direction of warm waters. WWWH is where you start in the canyon but it doesn’t necessarily mean IMO that it has to continue away from the warm waters. You cannot even really consider this misdirection if that is the case but I can see where some could take it to mean that you need to continue away from the WW’s.

          • …an afterthought Jake…..

            This can also be included in the process of “textual criticism”…what do the words and phrases actually mean…..more so….what do they mean to FF.

          • Hey Jake….Why didn’t you just respond to my post and keep it on topic?

            Was there too much for you to understand in the post?

            Cheers!

          • Tim: I wouldn’t call it “misdirection” since that implies deliberate deception. Rather, I would say the poem is intentionally ambiguous and open to many interpretations. If misdirection occurs, the solver is the one at fault, not Forrest. A frequently-mentioned example: some people think “new and old” is a clue for New Mexico; others think “treasures bold” is a clue for Montana; still others read “So why is it…” as a clue for Wyoming. They can’t all be right, and in fact they could all be wrong.

          • I guess I wasn’t clear enough…..IMO the poem is READ and CONSTRUCTED to include misdirection, whether or not by the seeker.

            I know I would include it if I wanted a treasure to be hidden. Shootm..look at all other maps of lost treasures…peoplecarevsearching high and low…for many years.

            Misdirection….ambiguous….whatever you want to call it…..it still isn’t as straight forward as one thinks.

            That is misdirection in my book. You may call it what you see as fit.

            Good luck zap.

          • Aaron, I definitely think the canyon could go either direction from where WWH. It seems to me that the use of THE canyon would mean that if you are at the correct WWH, that the canyon would be obvious. You might want to repost this as a new question, since this thread is so long and difficult to respond to. I hope my response go to the right place.

      • Those states are not always cold tho Something ihas to be cold year round no matter when we go look

        • New and old could also be a direction, as in noon old, straight uo, high noon or South! Lol ie; In many cultures in the Northern Hemisphere, noon had ancient geographic associations with the direction “south” (as did midnight with “north” in some cultures). Remnants of the noon = south association are preserved in the words for noon in French (Midi) and Italian (Mezzogiorno), both of which also refer to the southern parts of the respective countries.

      • Tim,

        Not taking sides of the conversations between you and Jake. However, you are 100% correct about the poem words and the majority have multiple meanings. I first read the poem as I understood the words to be. A BIG mistake on my part and for my solve.
        That being said…one must get out in their respective search area to make sense of the poem.
        My wife and I have been on four searches, from North Carolina, and just got back two weeks ago from our last trip. A great trip but no treasure.
        Will be back again soon. Even without a find it is still worth a trip out West….the views alone are worth the cost. Can’t get those back East.
        Good luck to all and be safe.

    • Diggin gypsy that’s why I say that cold could mean north
      your efforts will be worth to go north if you are brave and in the wood— oh I frank says hi Diggins

    • Diggin,
      The high desert, often called the “cold desert”, is also cold year-round….sabes bien?

      ~ Wisconsin Mike

    • But if your searching in the day it ain’t cold. The ole coot would only put a clue that was relevant to anytime u search Who the heck searches at night haha not this girl Im leaning toward water it’s cold all the time

      • You got that right on Diggin.
        Water.
        You have to get wet one way or the other.

      • If you were searching in the early morning or heading into evening, that flashlight he suggested carrying would sure come in handy!

        The Flyer likely thought of everything , IMO.

        SL

  19. This is a response to part of John’s post in the prior incarnation of Odds n Ends:

    John wrote: “In my opinion, the book TFTW doesn’t have any confirmation hints in it except for the “unintended clue” and it is a GREAT hint. It’s not in the Preface and it’s not the elimination of Canada.”

    Well, keep in mind that I’m pretty sure Forrest said there was a clue/hint in the Preface. (JCM can no doubt confirm). And certainly the elimination of Canada from the map was helpful and probably not intended. In my opinion there is another more subtle map hint, and this could be the one that Forrest is referring to. John added:

    “You probably won’t recognize it unless you have solved at least the first 2 or 3 clues. When you know what it is your search area will be dramatically reduced.”

    If John’s hint is on the fold-out map, it’s possible he has spotted the same thing I have since I would agree that you probably wouldn’t notice it unless you’ve solved the first clue.

    Just to confuse things further, I think there might be an unintended hint in the Forward by Suzanne Somers that Forrest couldn’t have asked Suzanne to change without drawing undue attention. I’ll go ahead and just say what it is because it’s likely nothing, or at best fairly unhelpful. It’s the very first sentence: “Forrest Fenn is a national treasure.” The words can almost be rearranged to “Fenn treasure is [in] a National Forrest”. Funny if accurate.

    • Zap,
      The preface mentions tftw now. Some folks like to think this in a answer to the line in the poem. Is that also your assessment? I ask because you mentioned JCM documents on the quote(s).

      There’s another quote as well. (Paraphrasing)… I could have written the poem before I hid the chest, but I didn’t.

      In mentioning the tftw sentence … I wondering what you conclude from both?

      Just a curiosity… Anyone’s​ comment is welcomed.

      • Seeker ,
        I would love to answer your question about FF writing the poem before he hid the treasure. FF is extremely clever. For someone as clever as he is , there is no real challenge in making a statement like that ,if it is deceptive and and not straight forward. For a person like f the challenge is to devise a statement that is absolutely straight forward, and know that very few if any will actually understand what he is saying. He has done this over and over again with his featured questions, scrapbooks and weekly words. I’m confident he has smiled many times upon completing his answers, statements and stories. Anyway, if you look at EXACTLY what he said by making this statement ,then picture this scenario. He’s in his sedan with the treasure and chest sitting beside him, and a pad with pen. Before leaving his car he could pick up that pad and pen , write the poem, then go and hide the chest. Or choose not to write it , and just go hide the chest. He chose not to . In his statement he never said write it for the first time, or develop the poem, he just said WRITE IT . Which would include just writing it on a pad after it had been completed much earlier , which was clearly the case. If you don’t examine exactly what is said by f , you will assume you know what he said but you will not. IMO

    • Hi Seeker,

      “The preface mentions tftw now. Some folks like to think this in a answer to the line in the poem. Is that also your assessment?”

      No. I don’t believe “NF, BTFTW” is some vague distance measurement requiring an answer, so in my opinion the 10 miles comment in TFTW at best falls in the category of an exclusionary hint (like limiting the altitude range). If 10 miles is now too far for Forrest to walk, it doesn’t necessarily mean it was 7 years ago, so if you allow that loophole, then the 10 miles comment is almost useless. If you take the quote as still being accurate, then about all you can say is that if you’ve gone more than 10 miles down your canyon, you’ve gone too far.

      “There’s another quote as well. (Paraphrasing)… I could have written the poem before I hid the chest, but I didn’t.”

      This line is pretty revealing to me and it should be telling people something important about the nature of the clues. Since he ~could~ have written the poem before he hid the chest, doesn’t that strongly suggest that all, or nearly all, of the clues are solvable without leaving home? It certainly suggests that he was confident of his clues before he went to hide the chest. That can mean a couple things: either (1) he knows the path to his secret spot so well that he can construct all the clues there from memory and is confident the answers will remain accurate for a very long time, or (2) he didn’t need to see anything in person because the answers to his intended clues can all be found on the right map(s).

      • Might there be a 3rd thought.
        Could have written the poem before… before when?
        are we to be concern with distance or the time when he could easily walk 10 miles in the same area. And did over many years. Should the hint here be the place and not the distance itself… a place in time[memoirs], when he could have written the poem long before becoming ill or the first thought came to him?

        Sure it might be the same line in the tftw book, but what is the line/sentence in the book really telling us.

    • Zap, you said: “Well, keep in mind that I’m pretty sure Forrest said there was a clue/hint in the Preface. (JCM can no doubt confirm).”

      Are you sure about this? I thought the unintended clue on said preface was brought up by the questioner but ff never said it was a clue/hint. The only one he points out is Canada off the map.

      • Oz10: I agree that it is open to interpretation. In the Moby Dickens video about 38 minutes in he’s asked about the unintended clue in TFTW. I don’t have an exact transcript, but Forrest said something fairly close to “Well if you read my preface, you uh … uh know … uh, hmm … what? Uh … it doesn’t take a genius I think to get what they’re talking about.” So he’s saying that he thinks it’s obvious what some searchers ~believe~ is a clue in the Preface, but he doesn’t say what it is, or (more importantly) that they are correct.

        I think the most likely thing from the Preface that Forrest could be referring to (as far as not needing to be a genius to figure it out) is on page xiii: “…that part of the river was in the quietly forgotten western edge of Yellowstone Park.” Certainly plenty of people have been searching in this area over the years, but Forrest didn’t confirm that the non-geniuses were right about their theory. 😉

        • … it doesn’t take a genius I think to get what they’re talking about…
          Yes, that is my point, and I think he was referring to the 10 miles issue. Some took it and ran with it.

        • Oz10: if that 10 miles comment is in the Preface, and I suspect it is (book is at home), then you are absolutely right on all counts: that *that* is what Forrest is referring to with the doesn’t-take-a-genius remark, and his lack of acknowledgement that the non-geniuses are right is a clue that they aren’t. All in my opinion of course; your mileage may vary. I find plenty of good hints in TFTW, but none are so blatant as this 10-mile non-hint.

          • I believe it is there and that has created confusion. When he said “it doesn’t take a genius” he was just pointing out to what some believed was the ‘unintended clue’ of the 10 mile walk in the preface, but his body language says ‘don’t oversimplify the clues’.

            The only unintended clue that he did mention was the map with no Canada. There was never a correction of those statements, maybe letting that idea fly out there could serve other purposes.

          • There is a picture of a stonemason’s hammer and chisel – related to a story about a stone fence. I can not say why, but I think that this is the unintended clue. Just me mutterin’ again – JDA

          • Has FF ever been to Canada? I think I read somewhere that he said he has never been to Canada? Anyone know?

          • OZ10…
            I agree w/you about Fenn just pointing out the obvious…just to be obvious. I say…be careful what we ask for..in terms of asking Forrest for clues or answers. It leaves the door wide open for him to add a little pizzazz just for fun.

    • Zap,
      thanks for pointing out John’s comments from the now archived Odds n End page, guess I didn’t stay up late enough.
      (like Jake was saying, it’d be nice if people made their User Names more unique, less run of the mill)

      For a split second I was actually pulling for John, [up until the page loaded]…. As soon as he begins explaining how he found HoB first, etc etc.
      I will say this though, I agree with John about that pesky unintended clue in TFTW. As far as “If John’s hint is on the fold-out map” goes, naahhh my guess is it’s in one of the 49 tales.

      Props to Seeker for posting the “interview” quote recently, that was a new one on me.

      Haven’t we learned by now that Fenn seldom gives a direct answer to a question? Notice how he ended his answer with a question?
      Yeah the book TFTW has been out close to 4 years, but I am fairly certain no one has mentioned that elusive “unintended clue” to him/ which as John mentioned could be helpful.

      • TCM9C – no problem — happy to resurrect a post from the dead. 😉 For me, there are so many hints in TFTW it’s hard for me to know which one Forrest considers unintended. There is absolutely something amiss with the map which I’m sure Forrest has noticed, but it may not be the one he’s talking about.

        Again for me, every picture in the end pages (extracted from the stories within) contains a hint, some obvious some less so. The alligator, Amelia’s airplane, the Mountain Men, the buffaloes, etc. all wink at me. But hard to differentiate random associations from intended ones.

      • I have noticed that F uses words from searchers comments in his posts & I’m not talking about every day words.

        Has anyone else noticed this?

        9clues struck it upon my mind again with the comment above.

        Jake Faulker on May 27, 2017 at 5:13 pm said: “I wish you guys would have avatar that was a little more unique than the given one.”

        https://dalneitzel.com/2017/05/21/odds-n-ends-about-fenns-treasure-hunt-27/#comment-247891

        Jenny comes out with a post by F a short time later:
        http://mysteriouswritings.com/featured-question-with-forrest-fenn-and-the-thrill-of-the-chase-treasure-hunt-unique/

        “Unique is an absolute word, so nothing can be more unique than another.”

        Just another coincidence I guess.

        One thing I did learn is that unique is a one of a kind.
        Also, F seems to be doing this to correct our use of words to his thinking.
        Maybe I’m just imagining this….

          • Are you trying to tell me I’m alone on this?
            I have read words from you & a dozen more searchers here that have been in his posts & they are unique words.

            OK, maybe I’m crazy.

          • Gosh Jake, I was not suggesting you were alone, but to offer thoughts for you and others. As far as seeing words I have posted online, I have not read any.

  20. “Your effort will be worth the cold” could mean, “Your effort will be northwest of the cold (stream).” “Worth” could be Fenn’s abbreviation for northwest. So you must do your searching northwest of a cold stream or lake.

    • That don’t make since because we have to make effort in the cold So we gotta be cold too

      • When F was asked what “warm” meant, he replied, comfortable . Perhaps “cold” has nothing to do with temperature.

      • DG,
        Not “in the” cold
        You’re effort will be worth the cold.
        Every word was deliberate [ we have been told ]
        What was cold to the kids in the story? Hint?
        What is a will?
        What does worth imply?

        However I do like your thoughts on searching day time… WhatIF the cold of the night brings on the warmth of the day… morning sunrise? If you can brave the night and in the wood.. the cold is yours.

        What happens when the sun comes up? Only the shadow knows.
        But if you can’t find the chest, go back to the first clue. hmmm!

    • I really like that John, I think Fenn is that creative kind of guy that invents clever notation for himself. Worth=northwest… I see other short-cut aberrations along that line of thinking.

  21. Well if he said warm was comfortable then cold would be not comfortable lol

    • Warm and cold. My husband likes the warm because it is comfortable and when it is cold, he makes it comfortable by refusing to get out from under the comforter! I like the warm when I am happy and cold when he needs to get out from under my feet. I wonder if animals like the cold or prefer the warm. Maybe it doesn’t matter unless it is more like hot and freezing. I wonder just how freezing Indulgence would feel to touch if it were warm or cold. I guess bronze would feel freezing even if it were just cold outside. Warm was always ok to me until my life changed 4 years ago and I seek snow and ice to make me feel comfortable. 🙂 Freezing cold Indulgence might feel great to me.

  22. F last visited this place in the summer. He likes to soak in untouched waters. I believe the “effort will be worth the cold” may refer to the cold soak being worth that hard journey on a hot summer’s day.

    Not every spot on every creek is subject to a torrent of waters from seasonal runoff.

    What I am more curious about is in the northern states how deep would the chest have to be to be certain that it would not freeze solid and explode like a pop can in the freezer.

  23. Ashternash – you may be shocked to learn that ect and etc mean different things. (Pun intended.)

    In multiple posts on the previous Odds n Ends, which is now closed, it is my opinion that you might have mis-typed what you intended.

    🙂

  24. One definition of Cold is ‘dead’.
    Remember FF originally intended to join the chest and die there.
    So maybe: “Your effort will be worth the cold” means you would have to reach through or around bones to retrieve the chest(?).
    That would require a searcher that’s bold and brave, and definitely Not meek!

    -Randawg.

  25. I went for a walk today and dd a google distance of 200 ft, 500 ft and 700 ft markings on my street using google. Rounding it off, I took 280 steps for 700 ft in about 3 minutes. I am not great at distance estimation so I thought I would do this. I am 6 feet in height. Going through the bush, elevations and speed would be different . I dd this for estimations. Using my solve as a reference point, It is all interesting. Makes me wonder if FF used his own measurement style for 200 ft to 500 ft , including google maps as a reference.

    • My guess is that he estimated the distance based on paper and online maps. I think the distance from known proximity to TC has not changed though the numbers have closed in some due to Forrest improving his estimate… I may be biased in this belief, though, as it favors my solve.

      • Ya, probably his best estimate. 166 words in the poem. 500 ft is 166 point six in yards. Funny how a mind can think itself of anything.

  26. Forrest meant “worth the cold” meaning a cold as in a sickness that we all have for the treasure that obsesses us like the dwarf in Lord of the Rings. So our effort will be worth the sickness! Ha Ha!

  27. the poem is all about direction that sends from one place to another so if you have entered in the wood you just don’t start looking right there it sends you to the other end that’s why your efforts will be worth the cold go north where you search imo of course

  28. Cold is just a convenient word that rhymes with gold.
    What is effort worth?

  29. the blaze is first – then its in the wood – so if get away from the blaze where its warm and go north of in the wood where its cold youll get title to the gold

  30. “Your efforts will be worth the cold…”
    Sub “cold” for gold.
    “If you are brave and in the wood…”
    1. Surrounded by trees
    2. Case lined with wood.

    Quest ceases at “cease”, you have it by then, no directions needed in stanza 6, except deserving, understanding, comprehension, stand in the midst of…a verbal permission that if you’ve completed the directions that you receive a verbal title transfer of property from F to you.
    F SAID clues were in order (paraphrased), so besides tswmg and ttcagip, which are suggestions as you leave with chest, the rest of the lines are not clues but important, non-the-less.

    Imo, of course. But, I’m pretty certain this is correct! Don’t ask me how or I’ll have to lie to you! LOL

    HI WYI
    ¥Peace ¥

  31. if you’ve been wise and found the blaze look quickly down -look a little farther but not to far – but keep going and looking (terry scant with marvel gaze ) for your quest to cease – just take the chest and go in peace

  32. Everyone is assuming that “Your effort will be worth the cold” is referring to YOU as a searcher. In my solve “you” and “your” are referring to the “all” in “hear me all and listen good.” “All” is not referring to searchers but to another inanimate entity described in the poem. So you, as a searcher, don’t have to be cold to find the treasure, IMO.

  33. I am close to 5 years into the hunt and am looking for someone (or more than one) who is interested in trading some information. For example, I would share my “solution” for a particular line of the poem or clue in the poem for someone’s solution to another line. I have solutions (IMHO) for several of the clues and am ready to co-op with others. Looking for people who are searching New Mexico only.

    • Good luck Connie. What if you gave them the only missing piece to their solve?

  34. my son brought me the books in october 2016 we’ve talked together but i put in the hours many many hours thanks for the snow report! i always thought my pilot friend was 85 but maybe he’s around ten years younger. He likes to ask me if I have a hole in my head and that burns me up . Am I wrong to point it out?

  35. All,
    With respect to YEWBWTC, remember (from TTOTC) that a bronze object, even in a warm room, feels cold.
    Safe searching, everyone!
    Geoff
    “Have flashlight, will travel”

  36. I suspect most of us have taken a look at the Toby Younis collection of videos on YouTube. He’s been adding one a week for awhile now. His most recent was added last week and in it he puts forward his theory that the chest was not hidden in 2009 or 2010 as most of us believe since Forrest has said on numerous occasions that he was 79 or 80 when he hid it…or at least that’s my interpretation of what he has said….

    We also know that a number of Forrest’s friends and family actually saw the chest in Forrest’s home before it was hidden.

    The author Doug Preston is one individual who has stated that he saw the chest while visiting Forrest. We can guess that in all likelihood a number of his family members happened to see the chest while Forrest was filling it with goodies over the months or years that it took for him to complete that task.

    So wouldn’t it be nice if one of these “viewers” of the chest could verify when it was last seen in Forrest’s home and put an end to this discussion about WHEN the chest was hidden?

    I’ve never understood exactly why it would make any difference to anyone’s solution if he hid it in 2003 or in 2009 or 2010…UNLESS you happened to know every single place he went in one of those years…which is highly unlikely…

    I can’t even tell you every place MY dad went in a single year and he certainly wasn’t galloping all over the countryside collecting relics, artifacts and artwork….as Forrest typically was.

    But some folks just seem too like to argue meaningless points and pretend they are important…maybe that’s what Toby is up to…

    So…I thought I’d try to move Toby on to another topic…spend his time on a more worthwhile point than WHEN the chest was hidden…and on to WHERE it is hidden…lol..

    So I decided to ask someone who has seen the chest while it was in Forrest’s home, exactly what year they saw it there…

    Crayton Fenn is Skippy’s son. He is a friend of mine and he and his wife Terri both saw the chest one day while it was setting on Forrest’s table. Crayton even picked it up and told me he felt it did, in fact, weigh about 40lbs.

    So I asked Crayton-
    “What year do you think it was that you saw it in his home?”

    His response-
    “Our best guess is that it was on his dinning room table in 2009.”

    Crayton is as honest as can be. I trust both Terri and Crayton completely.
    The reason he can’t be exact about the year is because it was many years ago and he can’t remember precisely what year it was. But it was certainly well after 2003.

    The reason he says “Our…..” is because it is both his, and Terri’s best guess…
    The best guesses of two very reliable witnesses.

    So there Toby…
    It was in Forrest’s house sometime in 2009…

    Now someone will probably say that Forrest moved the chest back and forth from it’s hiding place to his home whenever he wanted…so it MUST be hidden nearby…

    Of course all this brings up the curious statement Forrest made which Seeker mentioned above-
    “I could have written the poem before I hid the chest, but I didn’t.”

    I remember when Forrest wrote that line…I was stunned by it…
    If he hid the chest in 2009 or 2010 and the book TTOTC came out in the Fall of 2010…and the poem was in it he must have been writing that poem immediately up to the moment the book went off to the printer…

    I had always envisioned that he had the finished poem stuck in a drawer somewhere for years while he arranged and rearranged the contents of the chest…
    This vision was based on the story that Forrest told us of an earlier version of the poem that led us not only to the chest but also to Forrest’s final resting place when he believed he had terminal cancer….

    I asked Forrest if he was certain that he hid the chest before he wrote the poem.
    He wrote to me the following-
    “…that’s the way I remember it.”

    There are so many mysteries…
    But many don’t really matter because the answers will not help us find the chest.

    If you have not looked at Toby’s videos you can find them here:
    https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCr-jm_sdNJJNxSFW4AX4Oew

        • Thanks Dal! You could ask Crayton if he remembers if it was before, or after, those BLM guys pestered Forrest? A recognizable point in time might jog his memory? 🙂

    • Well dang, this is discouraging. I suppose my buddies at the NSA did all that work for nothing; finding all of Fenn’s credit card transactions, traffic cam videos, and satellite reconnaissance files. I thought for sure I had it nailed this time.

      Note to self: Notify DesertPhile I’m canceling trip to Kansas.

      • JCM, your research was introspective and very accurate interpretation of facts in response to my appeal for witnesses and textual refs.

        Now the nagging dileman, a sword of Damocles which begs: Why or what would Forrest possibly have as a reason to not reveal the exact date?

        I would love to have been a fly on the wall on that specific day when he completed the task and finished his Poem, perhaps that is the question?

        TT

    • Ty Dal! I’ve said all along it was hidden WAY b4 2009! HA!
      It doesn’t matter when, how…just WHERE!

    • Thanks Dal,
      The only difference I can see in the dates is maybe F was in a little better shape to make a little longer hike.

      Maybe add an extra mile.

      Anyway, I trust your judgement with Crayton & Terri & believe they saw it around 2009.

  37. So I asked Crayton-
    “What year do you think it was that you saw it in his home?”

    His response-
    “Our best guess is that it was on his dinning room table in 2009.”

    I wonder if it was before or after Federal officials searched his house in 2009?

    Crayton does not answer the question you asked. He does not lie to you, but he does not answer your question. It is as diversionary as “Why are you making such a big deal out of that, Ritt,” or “I tell people that I was 79 or 80 when I hid the treasure,” or “I was never good at math, but that’s the way I remember it.” And, it worked.

    Fenn was a fighter pilot. He was good at math.

    t.

    • Toby,
      As you pointed out Fenn has said numerous times that he was 79 or 80 when he hid the chest. I’m inclined to believe Mr Fenn at his word unless proof is presented to the contrary. Also, since no evidence or eyewitnesses to the hiding event exist why would it matter?

      -Randawg.

      • For the sake of clarity: I have never said that Fenn said that he hid the treasure when he was 79 or 80. What I have said is that Fenn has used language to avoid saying he hid the treasure when he was 79 or 80. His most often used example (as in the Moby Dickens video) is “I tell people that I hid the treasure when I was 79 or 80.” I tell people my driver’s license says I weight 195. That’s not a lie any more than Fenn’s is. But, it’s not the truth. And, as far as proof, take a moment to watch the video Dal refers to in his comments above. Crayton’s response to Dal effectively does the same thing. There may very well have been a treasure chest on Fenn’s dining table in 2009, but Crayton does not say he came in contact with it.

        t.

        • Toby,

          I understand what you are saying, but there is a flaw in it.

          If he had never in fact told someone “I hid it when I was 79 or 80” then he would be lying when he says “I tell people…” because he has never in fact told anyone that.

          It is not the same as you saying “My driver’s license says I’m 195.” It would be the same if F said “Dal’s blog says I hid it when I was 79 or 80.”

        • Thank for the reply Toby. So you think the “hid the chest when he was 79 or 80” statements, and Crayton’s account of seeing the chest in 2009 are both lies but the “15 years from the start till he hid the treasure” comment you decided was the truth?
          I’m sorry but if you believe the Fenns are liars and are purposely trying to mislead then I fail to see the logic in your conclusions.

          -Randawg.

    • Toby. To me, it does looks like Crayton answered the question fully completely with his best memory recall. As has been noted , FF is the only one that knows all the details of his actions involving the chest. Therefore, I don’t think Crayton would have an agenda with how he worded his answer. Just simple honesty of memory recall ,in my opinion.

    • As complicated as the puzzle is, I don’t see the benefit of adding Crayton in a conspiracy of dates with Fenn. Thou shalt not multiple entities beyond necessity.

      I’m a bit of a Fenn apologist. Instead of “Why does his statement seem inconsistent?” try “What would it take for this statement to be true.” I think it’s safe to work off 2009-10 as a hide date without missing anything critical.

      • Jeremy…the poem is complicated by design for sure. We can all attest to that. Some feel that it is necessary to make it even more so by looking for things that are simply not there/relevant. Why? Who knows.
        Fenn has been very available and willing to participate from the beginning, but it seems now he may feel more obligated than willing. I am with you as to taking the positive angle vs. cooking up a big wad of suppositions that calls into question his intentions. I say again…careful what we ask for….I think he enjoys funnin’ us.

    • I’m constantly amazed at the conspiracy theorists out there. But, like Fenn says, just because you’re paranoid doesn’t mean they aren’t after you.

      Apparently this is part of your marketing plan trying to get attention. But like others have asked, what difference does it make? If the exact time frame could be determined perhaps it would give a relative or one of Fenn’s good friends a leg up, or maybe a convenience store clerk in Swamp Angel, Kansas would remember Fenn stopping by and go right to the chest.

      Of course there’s always an audience for malevolent forces seeking to advance some nefarious aim. So maybe a show about all the odd/inconsistent/contradictory statements Fenn has made over the years would garner a few hits. The statement Dal speaks of about Fenn working on the poem for years but not writing it until after he hid the chest is odd. Of course the little girl from India, boy from Waxahatchee, and Arab kid from Marrakech statements seem contradictory to his previous statements.

      And who can forget his ants going up a tree and Coriolis Effect statements. Those are doozies. I know, I know, the Coriolis Effect has affected my brain.

      And he has said a couple times it’s buried. The slip when he almost said 7,000 feet is another one, there are many others.

      If there is some way to answer the above questions I still don’t know how helpful it would be finding the chest, but it might be an interesting show.

  38. I’m with Dal, what difference does it make, as long as you have the nine clues down.

    I personally think that Fenn hid the chest inside of an Eagle’s Nest on the side of a 900 foot cliff. 🙂

    • IMO you are very close at least with the cliff! Unless eagles build nests 17 feet below and in between large rocks on the cliff!

      • Unless eagles build nests 17 feet below and in between large rocks on the cliff, it’s not exactly in an eagle’s nest IMO.

  39. Hi all .

    I recently was watching a video on a web site of a hiding date of 2003.

    Although I have seen the same things in the time line of the book and have been working on it very intensely , I do not think this time a date gives a direct location . I have found him in many places based on dates as a lot of other searchers I would imagine have also. He listed the dates in TTOTC.
    At first I will say , it was a attractive way to see the “inner solve” I like to call it.
    The thing is this concept used one key sentence I think to assume the understanding. I would like remind all of you that Mr.Fenn’s friends saw the chest in his vault in 2009. It was covered with a red hankie. So no the chest could not have been hidden in 2003 while his friends saw it in 2009.

    Now the sentence.
    ” That is true. There is no percentage in searching where a
    seventy-nine or eighty year old man could not have carried the treasure. ”

    I was going to break this sentence down here , but somethings you just don’t say .

    Take care just wanted to clear up a 2003 hiding period . His friends seeing it in 2009 means it was not hidden in 2003 sorry my friend . I have had to hit that drawing board a few times my self.
    Take care all see you at the Boree .

    Mike and Heather

    • Hi squat ,

      I would have to agree to a point.
      Thanks for commenting…
      Mike

  40. Dal when I brought this subject of “Time Frame for ff’s hiding of the chest” and posted on Toby’s Vlog the question of others who had seen the chest in ff’s posesion, ie at or near his safe at home, m;y intentions were to gleam knowledge from the best sources, and I consider you, n Goofy to be close to the horses mouth.

    Thanks for the clarification and thanks to Toby’s (Vlog) he brings something to the table, his analysis did shed some light on a quandary in my thought about how ff expresses time and spatial co-ordinates, it also helps me see Forrest relationships others like the one with you and his father.

    My feeling is ff is somewhat like the founder of the Salvation Army, Mr Booth said in his last word uttered on earth OTHERS.

    Tom T

    • Hi Tom ,

      My friend I liked your video and I am sorry I didn’t list a name . I felt it would be in unkind. I didn’t knock the understand you presented at all . I actually agreed with you . I just added in to
      there were people who saw the chest in Mr. F’s vault.
      If this is incorrect then please show me so I do not continue to follow that path .
      I respected the data you presented and as I stated above ,
      If they saw the chest in 2008-2009 or early 2010 , then it would not have been hid in 2003 is all . I recently stated that Forrest didn’t go back to Cody Montana after certain date. The reason I stated that was this was information that I had to pay someone to find out , and I was mis lead by someone I trusted.
      It was a known fact that F was there beyond that point and my data was wrong . I had to hit the drawing board to change just a little of my solves . Heck I wished I would have been told sooner so I could move onto something else. I was not trying to degrade the value of your work nor would I . Please forgive my short handed way of writing I am not very good at it .
      I actually follow the same type of solve in the dating period as you and am very happy you put that Video together . I didn’t state the names or the video URL because I felt it would be wrong of me .
      Now I feel maybe I shouldn’t have said a word. Sorry again .

      Mike

      • Hi Tom . I wanted to share a thought with you if I may ?

        That is true (North) there is = no ; (No is zero) percentage ( 100% ) in searching where a (a=1) seventy-nine or eighty ( 79,80 ) year old ( 365 days )man ( a=1) could not ( not=0 ) have carried the treasure
        ( treasure weight and box)
        If this can make some sense as kind of coded as it relates then I think you Tom would be the one to understand it.
        I wish you the best my friend and good luck .
        Mike

      • Mike, maybe you are confusing me with Toby Y. Because I was the one who first posted him about the witness who claimed to have seen the Treasure chest as recently as 2009.

        Does that square with your comment, I am the person who wrote “WINTER THOUGHTS” on this (DALS) blog. So type in Winter Thoughts in DALS site search and you will see clearly that I believed “probably stashed the TC on August 22, 2010 his 8th Birthday.

        MY QUANDARY IS WHY DOES FORREST NOT WANT TO PIN IT DOWN AND WHAT IS HE NOT REVEALING.?

        • Hi Tom ,

          Yes that dose square the comment…. Awesome..

          Now my friend the last comment is very interesting . but imo only …
          I have a birthday date also . The only day he could be both 79 or 80.
          But would a date review the chest? And or f revealing a “place pinned ” down ?
          I don’t want to comment too much .
          Please as a suggestion – date the book maybe then and the question . Just a suggestion =)

  41. if you have a pit (where the treasure is) then you have the wood and then you have the blaze then you have water to turn the fire off you have a camp sight

  42. Upthread dal wrote: “I’ve never understood exactly why it would make any difference to anyone’s solution if he hid it in 2003 or in 2009 or 2010…”. A number of posters have agreed with dal.
    ———————————————————————————————-
    Here’s the reason it would make a difference. If he hid the chest in Montana or Wyoming or northern Colorado, he probably would need to fly his own plane, as that would expedite the round trip and keep people from wondering why he had been gone from home so long.

    So the question then becomes >>> when did he sell his plane? If it was after 2009, then all locations up to the Canadian border could be construed as reasonable. But, if he sold it much earlier, say 2004, then a searcher has a more difficult time explaining how he would transport the chest such a long distance without the trip becoming an issue with friends and family.

    When he hid the chest is not much of an issue if the chest is hidden in New Mexico or even southern Colorado. But the timing becomes more of an issue and a much more problematic for searchers to rationalize, the farther north one goes, depending on when he sold his plane.

    Of course for those searchers who are super rigid in their belief that the chest has to be in western Montana my comment here will be glazed over with nary a second thought.

    Ken (in Texas)

    • He could still fly a plane, doesn’t have to be one he owns. He could drive anywhere for how ever long it takes to anywhere. Who knows of another persons life and family events. His wife could have been away on her own somewhere at the time and not aware what he was doing or where. He could have went on a simple business trip or event and also hid the chest. Charter a plane , heck he could have chartered 4 different planes to 4 different places in 4 days to fog up his trail. Not much security process to charter.. It is easy to sneak anywhere anytime unbeknownst to anyone if it’s timed with what anyone around you is doing. I could be in Mexico when a friend calls me on my cell but I can say I am in China . Age doesn’t matter much with all this scenario, just health and finances maybe at best. I went to the US from Canada 2 weeks ago and told everyone I went to Lethbridge . No one non the wiser. Just saying…… non of this 2003- 2010 effects my solve but I do understand your thinking..

    • As I said in my video, he sold his plane in 2002 and the deal was completed and approved by the FAA in 2003. The gentlemen to whom he sold the plane bounced the check for $700,000.00 for the purchase and eventually paid Fenn via wire transfer. That is one of the reasons I believe the treasure was hidden in th 2001 – 2002 time frame. If not the treasure, then at least the chest. Two trips?

      t.

      • Toby Toby Toby…I believe you are barking up the wrong tree. In fact…you may be in the wrong forest.
        This Chase has a way of taking on a mind of it’s own in individual cases. Makes folks do things they normally would not…say things out of frustration because they are just too smart to be had by Fenn.
        Some folks even start thinking they are like him….hopefully not you though, right t.

    • I believe the plane was sold in 2007. Still, if he had his medical he could have rented one

  43. Federal Regs require most commercial pilots to retire at 69, ff was probably an instrument rated pilot and as a privately licensed had an exception. But regs may have gotten tougher and ff had to jump through hoops to be granted a waiver IMO. Also IMO he allegedly sold his plane about age ? 75 was my guess, 2005.

    TT, LIKE THOMAS THE TRAIN says I think I can, I know I can! I know I can

    • Mandatory retirement (Part 121 only) is 65.
      Yes, Fenn is instrument rated (or, very likely, ATP certificated) but probably prefers to remain in VMC. I would too; the scenery is much better.
      There is no exception required…no age limits, except for Part 121 ops.

    • What a load of b.s. Airlines require a retirement age but your F.A.A. certificate is valid as long as your medical remains valid and your certificate has not been revoked. Airline pilots hold a special rating (ATP-airline transport rating). I know many pilots with a commercial and instrument rating who are well over 80.

      • Yep and he still flew to Montana the year I first started searching. Don’t know if he flew the small plane or his nephew tho

      • Pilot certificates do not expire, including ATP. Typically, a person develops a health condition that no longer allows the issuance of the medical certificate. This happens to the young and old alike. My guess is that Forrest decided to hang up his goggles of his own accord. Owning an airplane is costly, the ongoing ownership is what really hits your wallet. Like anything, if you buy right, you get your money back when you sell, but ownership costs are high.

        I would note that you don’t need a license or medical certificate to fly an airplane; especially if you own it 😉

        Fenn sold his airplane in 2002. See third picture down at this link: http://www.fennhotspot.com/single-post/2016/04/04/The-Nine-Clues

      • My good friend John(RIP) flew his last flight in an F 15 at age 80 on his birthday. It helps to have friends in high places. We flew kites the next day…

  44. Whether or not he took the chest I would bet he made at least one trip north through the Rockies during the 2009 to 2010 time frame during which he could have taken the chest. The whole argument is pointless because if you can’t take his word for when it was done then you shouldn’t be searching.

  45. Ken in Tejas, are you coming to Fennboree?
    I have a hunch about ff’s mysterious comment on the reason for him not wanting to give the exact date of the stash act, and it could be as simple as OLD MAN GLOOM! A date that will live infamy.
    Tom T

    • No, sorry. Won’t be able to attend. Should be a great outing and if I lived closer I’d go.

      Ken (in Tejas)

  46. In infamy, I hate spell checker, but I love it too, reminds me of the love of my life and pretty much our relationship.

    My woman has the last word in any argument.

    Anything a man says after that is the begining of a new argument.

    TTTTTTTTTT

  47. All this yackety smackety about what was said, when was hidden…
    it reminds me of some acquaintances that work harder at avoiding work than getting an actual job.
    quit trying to find a back door to sneak into and steal the loot. Solve the poem as intended with the resources suggested and if you cant, gracefull bow out and sit back and watch.
    i read a suggestion a while back…get you a drone with metal detecting capabilities…..
    Wow i thought. Yeah maybe this or something similar would get the prize. But if so and if ever asked how it was done, who would want to have to say I CHEATED.
    then again i wouldnt put it past a cheater to lie also

  48. Hey Dal…
    BigSkip here….
    I don’t get on the computer very often so this is a belated thank you for your June 1, 8:34PM review of videos on YouTube. Thanks a lot. But maybe you could help this old duffer. Where can I find all of FF comments regarding the safety issues of the Chase? I’m referring to the ones about kids and/or grandkids being on the Chase. I know the advice given about “don’t go where an 80 year old senior couldn’t go” or something like that. But do I recall comments about “a five year old could find the TC” if in the right area, or something like that. Where can I ask these questions?
    Thanks again

  49. Does anyone think it is possible that the clues could draw more than one path to the treasure. For instance by plane, train and automobile all from different starting locations.

    I know f said that as far as he knows following the clues is the only way, but does that necessarily discount that the clues may apply to more than one path?

  50. YNP update: rivers unusually high–one old timer fly fisherman said Firehole at 800 cfm & he’s never seen it above 500… Gibbon & Madison raging, too. Saw a searcher walking by bank of Gibbon really close to edge. MountainSnowmelt has just started… extreme year. Be careful out there.

    • Yup Lady V,
      Getting up to the 60’s & 70’s & the big melt is on watching from the Treasure Coast.

      • 82 tomorrow! Boiling river spot must be submerged! Very beautiful and wild, but no place for the brave!

    • Finally found out my area is clear of snow. I’m much more prepared than the first time, this being my second. This will be my last, either way how it goes.

      • Best of luck Alsetenash! Enjoy the trip! If I may, keep the pace slow and steady. The flowers have bloomed. Could be that those scents and sights will be the memories you leave with, enjoy them.

        • Thanks Feathers n Glue. I saw the USA Rockies for the first time 2 weeks ago. Absolutely fantastic and diverse scenery I have never seen before nor expected. I been in the Canadian Rockies throughout my life. The USA Rockies are very different in so many ways and also similar. But wow, I was taken by the scenery on the USA side not seen here.

        • Aaron, I am not sure yet but probably end of June most likely. Thought I might go sooner but have some darn priorities.

          • Yeah I know what you mean. I have priorities too or I’s be out there. Though my priorities are going to be fun. Getting married and going to Cancun 🙂

            Good to hear the snow is melting!

          • Nice, congrats! Maybe for there will be two treasures in the old and New for you.

          • Thanks Akset, well said. Treasures old and new indeed. Wonder what that makes her since she’s 4 months older than me 🙂

          • Haha, I meant old and new as in Mexico if you are searching there. What’s four months of time? It’s only long, if you sleep on the couch lol.

          • Ha, right well you have to look at all of the different meanings right? One thing we will do that FF would approve of is visit Chichin Itza. Last time in Cancun I went to Mayan ruins of Tolume and enjoyed that a lot. Chichin Itza will be a blast 🙂

  51. So I’ve heard the term “serious searcher” a few times. What constitutes a serious searcher vs. one that is not?

    Hours of research? Number of trips? Distance traveled?

    • I’d say anyone who has gone more than 1 or 2 times in any given year might qualify. Certainly anyone who has gone more than 8 times has to be serious since most everyone he knows likely thinks he has lost his mind by that point.

      • Damp-
        I might be an exception. I’ve been out over 65 times in the past 7 years and my wife is very supportive of me heading out to search. she doesn’t appear to think I’ve lost my mind. She only rarely comes along.

        There is compromise though. She is a doll collector and garage sale enthusiast. I take her to doll shows and even help with her entries when they require photography or set design or carpentry.

        The occasions when she travels with me to search she generally drops me off on the side of the road and heads down the highway to the nearest yard sale or main street full of antique stores until it’s time to come pick me up.

        She doesn’t like camping so when we travel together we stay in motels. Costs more but we like traveling together.

        I guess what I’m getting at is that the compromise works and she doesn’t think I’ve lost my mind…at least no more than she has… 🙂

        As an added bonus feel free to quiz me on 19th century German dolls…

        • I’m right up there with u dal not it’s around 40 times for me lol I never thought I would ever see Montana ever!!!! now I know west Yellowstone probley as good as the ole coot last year I went 8 times

          • I still have to get my family to Yellowstone. I haven’t been there since I was a kid. I could spend a month there just enjoying the sights.

        • LOL my ex-wife collected dolla…so I became familiar with late 1800 to early 1900 French dolls.

          I can spot a Jumeau from a 100 yards a away!!

          :o)

        • Dal I commend you and your wife. It sounds like you both have found the right balance and are having fun. I would enjoy a beer one day with you. I’m sure you have a lot of stories to share. My wife and I worked out a compromise. I get one trip a year now and I am OK with that. I did 4 my first year and 4 my second year. Most of my family came along for most of the trips and they were fun but it’s become so focused now they stopped having fun. So now we do other trips together and I do one solo Forrest Fenn trip each year. 🙂

    • Thanks Toby,
      I captured the video’s & stored them on my hard drive in case they disappear from the internet.

        • Thanks for taking interest in my videos & another copy on another hard drive will ensure they will survive.

          Which one is your favorite?

          My fav of yours is Moby.

          • Y’all are crackin’ me up !!
            I do so enjoy this swordplay, Gentlemen 😉

          • quakrspecl,
            I was hoping F would come out with another scrapbook to take our minds off idle thoughts.

            Maybe just one more very impelling life learning experience from him would be great.

          • I don’t think it’s needed Twingem.
            It would be nice for him to share some more & I know I’m being selfish when I say this.

            I think Sparrow commented the spoiled phrase.

          • One last scrapbook? Gosh, I would love to read more than one if he was willing to do so. I enjoy reading what he has to say, no matter the topic.

          • pdenver,
            I have to say this.
            His whole composure has changed dramatically from late January when there were many postings from him although that may have been do to a backlog by Dal but the SB’s came at a much higher pace than before years.

            This lasted til late April I believe.
            Then the silence from him became deafening in May & now June with little or no SB’s.

            Still posting weekly statements on MW’s but I’m sure he has more SB’s to share with us & wondering when & why the change in his norm as we see it.

          • IMO – slow SBs and discussion topics, is because it is searching season and he’ll probably be overall silent over the summer months (may poke his head in every so often). But luck back in after the Summer Season..

            Just a guess, probably because he is still hoping it survives in place another year.

            Cheers!

          • I tried to responding to SL, and to you, Jake. It looks like I’m having posting problems.

  52. Thank you for all of your hard work, Toby. I’m looking forward to your next episode. 🙂

  53. Forrestfenntreasurehunt.com will be expiring in the next few days. If you have not read it I recommend you do so. I hope it has helped those who took the time.
    Tim

  54. The Flyer is Helicopter Certified. Several heliports are located throughout the search States.

    Who knows?!?

  55. Jake,
    “…wonderin why the change in his norm…”

    Its because the time is upon us. The twelfth to be precise.

  56. Not sure if this is the right place, but looking for advice/wisdom regarding grizzly hazard in Yellowstone.

    Dal – I know you are probably one of, if not the most, prolific BOTG searcher(s) in the Chase. I know grizzly fears can be overblown in anyone’s mind, but I’m looking for opinions on how foolhardy it would be to solo-hike 2-3 miles into a non-human-trailed area of Yellowstone known for our earthly friends, ursos arctos. All of Yellowstone, and surrounding area, is known habitat for them, but some areas in Yellowstone are specifically known for grizzlies.

    Also, do any searchers carry a firearm in Yellowstone. It’s legal to carry, but illegal to discharge or shoot a bear (or anything else). If one had to shoot, there would certainly be some court dates in that person’s future. Bear spray is know to be effective, but it’s hard to have a lot of confidence in a few seconds/ounces of bear spray, even if there is a possible shiny pot-o-gold at the end of my trail-blaze.

    As the Outlaw Josey Wales said, “dyin’ aint’t much of a livin’ boy.” 🙂

    • Hi, At the Top!

      My advice would be to make sure you get a belt-holster for your bear spray rather than bury it inside your backpack. I know that they sell them at REI. I encountered a black bear once in the mountains, and although it ended up being docile and wandered away on its own, I was momentarily very regretful that the can of bear spray I had with me was not readily accessible. Bear spray comes in pretty good-sized canisters, so the quantity should be more than plenty to help you out of a jam. No need to bring a firearm; it would just make a grizzly mad anyway.

      • There are multiple rules/regs for national parks, in addition, there have been deaths/injuries due to bears in the last few years, so it is NO JOKE. One thing to consider, you are required to check in with rangers if you intend to enter the backcountry and permits are required for multi day trips, you probably need to do some more research and keep in mind that even up to the minute you arrive a trail may be closed due to activity…a fresh kill, time of year when mamas have cubs, etc. Again, NO JOKE, bear spray is your best option, I would not want to deal with a firearm in a national park. Doing a solo hike is a bad idea, you are putting yourself in the food chain. Good luck…and can you explain how you would deal with a find on Federal property? You realize it would be a legal nightmare right? If you were identified (with ‘artifacts’) before you left the park you would likely be arrested. Many believe these are reasons it is NOT in the park. BLM/National forest land has much better outcomes for ownership, although maybe FF wanted the $ to go to the park system and he has thought of a way to deal with these issues, who knows.

        • Thanks tbug,

          I think you’re right…it is NO JOKE and I don’t like the idea of putting myself into a disadvantaged position in the food chain.

          Regarding finding of the fabulous treasure in YNP: I guess I could attempt a feeble explanation, but I’ve only spent a little time researching that. I figure first things first, find the treasure, right? I know that’s not a very good plan, but it’s the fun part.

          I suspect Forrest has a plan in place regarding the legalities of dealing with the find. Maybe he even included instructions for the finder inside of the chest. I can only speculate on that.

          The only thing I’ve read is Title 36 CFR Part 2.22 which is NPS rules regarding property abandonment, impoundment, disposition, etc.

          It appears to me, that if I find abandoned property within a NP, I would have to turn it in to the Park Superintendent as soon as practicable, and the park has to protect it while waiting for a claim. Maybe that’s why Fenn said (paraphrased) …best to store it in a vault for 30 days while you think.

          • At the top, after reading your other comments, it is clear you are up on your research, that is good. Your original question suggested a lack of experience in the ‘wild’, but then you described 2 trips to YNP and an encounter with a blackbear sneaking up on you. It cannot be stressed enough, Yellowstone is a wild place, you are in their home, did you see the movie The Revenant?

            About 5-6 years ago I went to my cousin’s wedding (mid July as I recall) that was held at Pahaska Teepee (just east of eastern park entrance from Cody). Well, we had a down day and we decided to do some fishing on the north fork of the Shoshone…a short hike of roughly a mile one way. We were warned by the horseback rental folks that bears had been spotted nearby and to be vigilant/noisy. Prior to this I had no experience with bears, other than small blacks in the snowy range and other areas of the rocky mountains (I live in Denver, but spent summers in Laramie, including fishing and hunting in the snowies), all of my experiences were seeing prints or catching a brief glimpse as they ran across a road. Needless to say I was ill prepared for what happened that day. The fishing sucked, there were 3 of us, my dad, my cousin and myself. My dad had been dealing with some arthritis issues that year and his mobility and endurance were limited. We fished for a few hours and were on our return on a well used human trail. My cousin and I had left my dad to the trail as we fished the river on the way back. Less than a 1/4 mile from civilization we were about to cross the river and were alerted to something by my dad. My dad was about 60 at the time, he grew up in Wyoming fishing and hunting nearly his entire life, while it would be hard to call him a ‘boyscout’ he was certainly aware of what was out there. I’ve never seen him so scared and to this day he still says it was the worst scare he has ever had. So we were literally in the water, taking the first careful steps, I had just stooped down to pick up a weird green rock in the water (soapstone, and yes I still have it), I was showing my cousin and we both turned to see my dad running at us (arthritis and tired) waiving his arms and hollering and pointing…we turned and about 150 yards out is a large brown bear in a full gait coming straight at us. Luckily, within seconds he pulled up to a halt, quickly turned 180 and ran up off over the hill. None of us had bear spray, and aside from some fishing poles and fish hooks, we were in fact food. 2 days later we went into the park and observed 10-15 people out of their vehicles harassing a young and very thin bear…so so stupid. Don’t be stupid, do not take for granted these animals are stealthy and much faster than you, I never will again.

      • Hi Blex!!

        Thanks for your response, and your enthusiastic salutation 🙂

        I agree. I made 2 trips to YNP last year and had my rented can of bear spray available for quick draw, and in many cases, in my hand ready for action (safety on) when I felt I might be more vulnerable to a surprise.

        Like you, I also had a black bear show up on one of my trips last year. I had already been on site for over 4 hours and then saw it (me above, him (or her) below). I was not not detected, so I slipped out of there ever so stealthily, and called it a day! Not sure how that darned bear slipped in under me without my detection.

        Thank you for the feedback.

        • The Grizzly Bear scene in the Revenant was intense and realistic. I watched The Edge again the other day ( Anthony Hopkins). Those of you searching in YNP are very brave.

          • “The Edge” was a good flick; I still need to watch “The Revenant” sometime (though I did just “Iron Will” in from Netflix yesterday, which I’m eager to watch after seeing the clips in IW’s latest video).

            I just got done reading through the Journals of Lewis & Clark this morning, which was another great read and has a lot of detailed descriptions of the party’s encounters with grizzlies and how they behaved. They were very aggressive and very difficult to kill. It’s a wonder that everyone in the party got through the expedition without a severe mauling!

            By the way, I highly recommend everyone on reading the Lewis & Clark Journals if they have not yet done so. It’s fascinating reading, and there are quite a few familiar words from the poem that pop up throughout.

    • I have hiked a few non-human trail areas in Yellowstone and always keep the bear spray in my hand with the safety off. I’ve never had to use the bear spray, but one time I forgot to put Deet on me and that was a miserable experience. The mosquitoes in Yellowstone are so big that they can bite through a t-shirt.

      • If the park issues me a “park pass,” I’m not buying Bear spray on top of that. I’ll just show the bear my pass. 🙂

      • Thanks Indy – I hadn’t planned for mosquitoes, but didn’t have an issue with them on either of last year’s 2 trips. Maybe there’s a peak mosquito time of year? I was there beginning of May and latter part of July last year.

    • If you are going to be where there is a potential of running into grizzlies, make sure you research and understand their behavior. There is plenty to learn about grizzly bears on the internet.

      Some very general recommendations (not comprehensive) with Grizzlies…
      – don’t mess with cubs and/or get between them and mama
      – don’t mess with their food; if you find a dead animal, move away very quickly
      – grizzlies will normally avoid and move away from you if they hear you coming… make lots of noise (i.e talk loud, sing, clap hands)
      – they normally will only attack (or make a bluff charge) when they feel threatened – see the 3 prior recommendations

      Definitely have the bear spray, this is your BEST defense. It will also work really well on protecting the chest from tourists if you find it. 🙂

      Depending on how you feel about your own life, and if others are dependent on you, should you consider carrying a handgun with you on the hike. Most likely scenario is that if you are at a point you will need to use it, you will be shaking so badly (and probably soiled yourself) you won’t be able to hit the broad side of a barn. For the most part, unless you are carrying a Desert Eagle .50 (or something in that class), a gun to the bear will mostly be an annoyance and just make it mad (unless you can get a lucky head shot), which will drive it to more forcefully and lethally eliminate the problem… you.

      If you discharge the gun while in Yellowstone, and you end up in court, your argument and defense better be that had you not fired the gun, you would not be standing there alive… and then there will be the questions of why you were there and going somewhere that was putting you at risk. Saying that you were searching for Forrest Fenn’s treasure won’t win you any points or sympathy with regard to your punishment.

      As far as the hike itself goes to this non-human-trail place, do you know if this place is a place where more than a few searchers have been, and then in telling f after the fact of their trip to this specific location, f would know precisely that they were either 500 feet or 200 feet away from the chest? If not, save yourself the trouble, hazard, time, and money of going to this spot. There are a few more criteria you could apply to determine if this spot is even remotely legitimate; hopefully you are wise enough to also think through those things too.

      Good Luck!!!

      • Howdy JCM,

        I have a copy of both your “Chasing Words” pubs. Nice compilation and reference tool!

        Looks like you’ve given this topic a fair bit of thought. I convinced a person close to me to go with (two are better than one when walking through grizz-country) and we were planning to go armed. The more thought that went into it, the more concern over getting into legal trouble if the guns had to be used, plus they draw attention (legal or not), so we’ve scrubbed the plan.

        So, I have to agree with your assessment of the legal situation. I don’t think Forrest or, more specifically his treasure hunt, has very many adoring fans amongst the Park Rangers at YNP. I appreciate your thoughtful, and sound, advice. I do have treasures I’m already responsible for and must admit I have some guilt about taking too many risks in this pursuit.

        Regarding the questions in your last paragraph. YES and YES. I came up with my solution in January 2016 after 2.5 years of thinking. Until that point, I never had a solution that gave me enough confidence the shoulder the cost associated with a BOTG, but once I came up with this one, I’ve been highly confident ever since. Two trips last year, but only one search. Based on Fenn’s newly coined phrase over at MW, I have to admit, mine was a “general solve” last season. 🙂

        There’s an easy way and a harder way to get where I’m going. Only the harder way is currently available.

    • At The Top; I commend you for asking, but by the nature of your questions my answer to you is you should not go. An equivalent scenario would be you telling us you are driving across country and are wondering exactly what the pedals under the steering wheel do.

      I don’t mean to sound harsh, but you simply don’t have the experience or knowledge to undertake what you are wanting to do alone.

      Especially with Mother Nature, if you’re gonna be stupid, you gotta be tough. She is an unforgiving old gal and has no concern about being “fair”.

      • Goofy,

        “…wondering exactly what the pedals under the steering wheel do.” OUCH! That IS harsh 🙂

        LOL, no worries, I have thick skin, a good sense of humor, and I appreciate your genuine and candid advice. I’m not sure I’m quite as unknowlegeable as my question may have come across, but I agree I lack significant experience within that environment to know how great the risk of a grizzly encounter really is. I could be wrong, but it seems like Dal has done a fair bit of hiking about in that region and there are probably other searchers that have done so as well. I think I was kind of looking for a sanity check from anyone that DOES have extensive time “off-trail” in Yellowstone.

        • Off trail ANYWHERE in YNP and you are part of the food chain, especially solo. This is an unnecessary risk, IMO. If you decide to go check with rangers for sightings/info about your area. Carry spray. Be noisy – sing, carry a bell, don’t sneak. Read about what to do in an encounter: learn the difference between a bluff, their vocalizations, etc. Look for sign (prints, scat). Listen for cubs…learn what they sound like…mamas are what you should be worried about. Time of year matters, mid-late summer is better as food is plentiful and not yet preparing for hibernation, and little ones are learning/in less need of mama. See my story above…that was a well populated/civilized area with lots of traffic.

        • At The Top; that’s good, sounds like you have enough sense to know what you don’t know. I’m amazed every year at the people I run across that could end up in serious trouble for no reason at all.

          Some of them have all the right gear but no idea how to use it. Some searchers drive cross country non-stop and make an elevation change of several thousand feet and expect to feel just fine. Some fly in and rent a preppy four wheel drive and think they can go anywhere, with zero experience off road driving.

          While experience is probably the most valuable asset, folks should keep in mind there are very experienced back country hikers, off roaders, climbers, skiers, ect. that get killed every year while doing nothing wrong. The line between a wonderful afternoon and absolute disaster is very thin in the wilderness. The Rockies are as dangerous as they are beautiful.

          It’s not just the bears, wolves, mountain lions, bison, and moose, that are after you. As someone else has already mentioned the mosquitoes and tics can make life very miserable. And don’t forget the vicious mad dog otter Dal run into. No really, I’m serious.

          https://dalneitzel.com/2014/01/27/grayling-creek-part-two/

          • “It’s not just the bears, wolves, mountain lions, bison, and moose, that are after you. As someone else has already mentioned the mosquitoes and tics can make life very miserable”

            …doubly beware of wild cows too….they’ll stare you down like I’ve never seen before…ever!!!

            :o)

          • LOL, they take their aggressive otter behavior seriously up there. Even provided two phone numbers for the FWP Warden.

            Thanks Goofy, et al for the advice.

            I’m responsible for treasures worth far more to me than the one resting at the end of Fenn’s rainbow. I think my upcoming trip will just have to be recon-only and defer the BOTG part to the time period during which Fenn most likely placed his marvel.

          • Goofy, the right gear but don’t know how to us it. That was me a year ago. After a full day searching with my kids, I noticed the safety on bear spray has a nice little thumb size curve on it but can not be removed unless you get your thumb in front of entire clip. The instructions do not explain this. I wonder if people have fallen victim to this. Horrified, I told my kids of my findings. They said we know that, we tested the clip. I did not, and would have had to been saved by my kids. g

        • At the Top, my husband and I just left YNP yesterday. We were there 7 days. Many close-in areas to roads (i.e., Fountain Flats just off the actual road!) are now closed due to “bear management.” You will see the white signs with bright red ink. These areas are usually open. Spring came late this year, and bears emerged later and with littler cubs. (And in the Tetons, the Gros Ventre is already over its banks…) As others have said, a bear with cubs is THE dangerous situation. That, and if you happen to surprise one (like, you are singing or yelling “hey, bear!” every few minutes, only the bear is upwind of you, which happened to us last Tuesday in the Tetons, and was terrifying).

          I learned a lot a few years back from a head YNP ranger and his wife who own a B&B in Gardiner. BPM or BMP (can’t remember which) on a YNP map means bear management area–they actually move the bears to those areas when the bears get aggressive or unruly. Do not hike there, IMO, ever! All rangers are very clear, publicly AND privately, do NOT hike alone off the boardwalks and well-traveled trails. There are ranger-led hikes at each of the YNP main areas; you could also hook up with people about to embark on where you want to go.

          Even in open areas and/or non-BMP areas, bears are there. We saw dozens of them during our trip, and all but one with very little cubs. We saw more grizzlies than black bears.

          Our last day we decided to hike Indian Creek. The campground is still closed, so it was eerily quiet. We started hiking through the woods, came across the typical “this is bear country” sign and decided to turn around. It just felt creepy there.

          Regarding gun vs. spray, rangers cite statistics that demonstrate considerably more deaths in bear encounters when the hiker had a gun than when the hiker had bear spray, regardless of the gun proficiency or experience of the hiker. Bear spray hits a wider area–harder to miss a charging bear–and apparently humans spray it faster than they can fire a gun.

          All of that being said, the other thing I learned was that bears have never attacked a group of 4 or more in a national park, 3 rarely, 2 is almost as dangerous as 1. If you’re going to go out there, hike very open meadows only, where you can see a long way in all directions, IMO. Stay safe out there! Happy to answer questions about places open/closed at the moment.

          I don’t believe FF would put the treasure somewhere a small family, or parent and child, could get attacked by a grizzly… stay near boardwalks and people (hoards are arriving now), or hike with others! 🙂

      • Good advice for us city boys Goofy.

        I know my first time out two years ago, I over prepared…LOL.

        I noticed I brought things that I would never use….DOH!! But it was still a blast of a time.

        I also remember reading through two paperback editions of Forestry and believe this or nit, the Boy Scout Handbook.

        Both were very helpful and down to earth for me or someone in a similar situation.

        Cheers and good luck to you.

  57. Does anyone have any thoughts on how I can finagle a small motorized inflatable/kayak on short notice?

    • Your question sounds fraught with peril.

      The rivers are raging and the lakes are flooded right now.

    • I googled “finagle kayak” and didn’t come up with anything useful. 😉

      But you can rent or buy kayaks and inflatable fishing or rafting boats all over the mountain west. There are hunting, fishing, and/or rafting equipment places everywhere. From Cabela’s or Dick’s to hundreds of local outfitters.

      (Not sure how to give a more useful answer without knowing more about what you’re trying to accomplish. No need to reveal any precise details of location or shape of your project of course.)

      JAKe

      • I’m trying to go approx 2-3 miles over slow moving flatwater. No rapids but it’s moving more quickly than an 80 yo could paddle against twice. I think.

        • If he took a boat, then why did he have to make two trips?

          (Same goes for a horse, ATV, etc)

        • Ya ‘ta Hey-O, Fmc –

          Please ignore the following if you’re already adept at doing this kind of riverwork – I have no way to judge your experience, and I sincerely don’t mean to come off as “talking down” to you.

          There aren’t many that can go upstream (even slow-moving) in a kayak for 2-3 miles.

          If you haven’t done it, it’s much harder than you’d imagine. Takes real physical effort just to keep yourself pointed upstream, let alone making any headway. And consider that you’d have to maintain that effort for an hour or more to cover the distance.

          Even harder I would think for an inflatable with a motor. They’re for lakes/ponds/reservoirs/bayous. I don’t know how you’d keep it pointed in the right direction.

          Best,
          JAKe

          • Yeah, I think I’m giving up on getting to my main search area. Will research boat options and decide whether to post my solve or try to hold out another year and come back.

            My only option this trip is for something to present itself in the next few hours for a final attempt tomorrow.

    • always do river trips with other people and proper safety gear. try calling a local river outfitter…

    • The temperatures and power of the water can kill. Please where a wet suit, life jacket, etc. I once was in need of a wet suit and an outfitter lent it to me free of charge. IMO outfitters don’t want to see anyone die. They will help you.

      Have fun, sounds epic.

  58. I’ve been searching the last week, and am late to the discussion about the chest being wet/in water or not, and FF’s bones, etc… Had a few thoughts while out on various trails; I’ve only read about 1/2 this site now (it is HUGE!), so please forgive me if I’m repeating something old I hadn’t seen.

    Perhaps FF was concerned about the bronze deteriorating. I looked this up, and it does, and quite quickly, especially if exposed to air pollution or water. It doesn’t just get a patina (which is a sign of deterioration), it develops actual pits and holes. Bronze is mostly copper. How to stop this? Wax? Making a wax mold and casting another, identical but very slightly bigger chest to put the TC in with a water-sealed barrier in-between? FF had a foundry, after all. He knows a lot about bronze. And then putting something over the bronze? Oil, apparently, is common in outside installations, but it has to be re-applied regularly, or pits and holes will develop and enlarge.

    But how about pitch? A black, thick, gooey layer of pitch you have to use “butter”/oil to get off of it, and off your hands? Both tarry and marvel might refer to this. Or maybe some specialized kind of resin that would stick; the problem there is it might spoil the appearance of the chest and be hard to remove.

    Also, something can be wet and not in water, or even on a water bank. It can be in a shallow marsh, or in deep shade at a cold spot next to a rock that’s near water and holds the cold (like marble)–this would explain both the “cold” and “wet” descriptors, and maybe even “marvel”/marble. It could also be downwind of a geyser, however small (one definition of “wet” is “damp”)–I was soaked a couple of days ago next to a small geyser (and then got cold!).

    Regarding where he wanted to rest his bones, particularly the question of how bones would likely be scattered by an animal: what if the TC is in a place no animal would want to, or be able to, go? This led me to try to search Death Gulch & Wahb Springs (with its great grizzly story). These are both places animals avoid because the fumes are extremely strong–but there may be others. Islands, maybe? Tar pits? The problem with places 200 or 500 ft from a trail IMO is that of course someone would then find FF and the chest within a few days (unless fumes covered the scent)…decomposition is not a delicate process. :'( Horrid thoughts…

    Just some ideas tugging at me that might help someone.

    • PS: IMO Wahb Springs and Death Gulch are too far to walk–farther than they look. Maybe on a horse, but definitely too far by foot.

    • Those are some interesting ponderings, Lady V, and you make a very good point. Even if the chest is not buried, it could be likely that it may be coated in wax, pitch, tar, etc. For that matter, it is possible that it could be contained within some other type of outer covering like a bag or box or wrapped in some sort of protective cloth. I wouldn’t be surprised if it were so.

      • Wrapped in a pair of terry cloth shorts? There are no shortcuts f

        Most people hike in shorts at least in the summer they do.

        ter·ry
        ˈterē/
        noun
        a fabric with raised unCUT loops of thread covering both surfaces, used especially for towels.

      • I’ve also wondered if he sculpted a container to look like a rock… they can be extremely realistic…

        And Blex, I remembered your warning about avalanche danger, etc, and it was helpful. Thank you again!

        • No problem, Lady V! And I sure hope that the chest isn’t contained within a fake rock! 🙂

          • Sorry I missed you yesterday, Alsetenash. What’s up?

            I’m entertaining my parents visiting us over this weekend, so not on-line as much this weekend as I usually am.

          • Hey Blex. I am traveling right now and will be home late tonight. I just want to contact you via email. I won’t be online until late tonight. I’ll post here tomorrow on the proper page here.

    • Maybe the chest Silo saw on the table was a duplicate F made, filled it and showed it off, to throw off the “hiding” date…? A decoy. Like a fly. The fish thinks it’s real…and maybe F reeled in a few “fish” to be his witnesses to the decoy?
      And I still feel he constructed the poem over several years after hiding the chest, it took a lot to get the words just right, for whatever purpose they serve…direction, coordinates etc.
      So, Dal, if you think of it in those terms, he did as you thought.
      Architectural manipulation takes months!
      Imo

  59. Was the dead hiker found near West Yellowstone a searcher? He was from North Dakota and possibly his 4th trip to the area recently. No cause of death reported yet..he was in his early 40s. Be careful folks.

    • Here’s what I read:

      Gallatin County Sheriff Gootkin commented that in the last few weeks water tragedies are all too common. He said

      “Especially this time of year when water levels are high extra caution around water is needed.”

      K

  60. I need input on this from people of honest opinions.

    f has said many xtimes that “searchers” have been within 200ft of the treasure. Recently @ the lure screening he said he thought not many within 200 was accurate. Bare with me as I rephraze what he said.

    Rephraze:
    Hunters have been within 200ft of the treasure

    From Merriam Websters dictionary:
    Hunter (one that searches for something)

    My question to the treasure hunting community @ large is: If this is what Forrest is saying, wood you consider this a lie?

    Or maybe he justifies it because the poem is titled “Where the treasure lies”

    Thoughts anyone?

    Dennis aka the menace

    • I honestly never thought much one way or the other about SEARCHERS within 200ft. Plenty to chew on there, I guess, but no nutritional value whatsoever.

      As for 200ft on its own, well . . . if I’m on the wrong side and the river’s 200ft wide or the canyon’s 200ft deep, then 200ft is too far to walk.

      JAKe

    • I do not think Forrest was lying. I can’t see what the incentive for him to do so would be.

      I always thought that the title of the poem was “The Thrill of the Chase”, same as the book. That’s what the map makes it look like to me anyways.

    • Dennis – I am not sure if I am correctly understanding you reference above when I read it, but in “The Lure” Q&A, f indicated that people have told him exactly where they were and that is the reason he knows that the 200 foot distance is pretty accurate. f then indicted that there weren’t very many people who had been within 200 feet, but that lots of people had been within 500 feet.

      Judging from all the other statements he has made on this topic, I don’t see any reason why he would be lying about this.

      • Thanks for your opinion JCM.

        The reason I bring this topic up is that there are many statements that on the surface are confusing. So naturally an astute treasure hunter should question why they were given. Which leads a person to question why the treasure hasn’t been found.

        Searchers have figured out the first two clues but went right by the treasure.

        Searchers have been within 200 feet.

        A three-year-old girl could walk to the spot with a little help.

        • I have been reading, re-reading, analyzing, and thinking about all of f’s comments about this distance over the years. I just recently undertook another round of thinking on the topic.

          I am inclined to believe that there is significant considerations to be given to these distances and one that has been of significant nutritional value to myself.

          f has shown one of his cards that his statements are sometimes connected or directly related to other of his statements. Finding these connections can be very insightful.

          • JCM – I appreciate your work and am happy to have invested in it. I don’t think the latest captures the distance distinction as I have now heard it from the Moby Dickens book signing video. Just FYI. I think the resource you are building is the most valuable in the hunt after the poem. I even put an open request out for it in the blog and shortly there after you delivered.

          • Hi DWRock – thanks for your comments! I am glad to hear that my Chasing Words of Forrest Fenn documents are so valuable to you. I know many serious searchers who certainly find it to be so.

            I will have to admit that I had been working on it long before your public request for it. But as many things go in life, the thing that is desired or needed most often shows up just at the right time.

      • Up until recently I assumed the 500 feet folks were just as close as the 200 footers…that Fenn merely improved his estimate… in the past week I have heard it clearly spoken that there is a difference. This is haunting me and my solve. He has control of all of the knowledge of the treasure and most of the knowledge of the searching thus far… I believe all he says is true, but I wonder if he would be tempted to drop a red herring now and again.

        • DW

          My comments seem to be moderating into the round file lately but I’ll try again: IMO, from
          BOTG, the wood is between a road and the
          creek. Thousands of people travel the road
          each year I am sure, with the treasure about
          500 feet to the east of them in the woods.
          On the other side of the wood,
          anyone walking along the creek bank would
          be about 200 feet from the treasure, which would to the west of them. Those few people would
          have been there on purpose, as there is no
          path or trail or any way to get through to
          some place else. Firewood cutters do
          encroach from the roadside to cut up
          downed trees, but surely aren’t going to
          go hundreds of feet into the woods for
          each piece of firewood they cut, so 500
          feet is safe from accidental discovery
          by woodcutters I think.

          I suspect the “200 ft” searchers were hung up
          on the “water high” words and were looking
          along the high water mark along the creek
          probably. If they had gone IN THERE, in(to)
          the wood(s) about 200 feet it now seems,
          they would have been close it seems. IMO.

          The blaze is in the wood. When you find
          it look down. You can’t look down if you’re
          not looking up, first, yes? Only things up
          in these woods are trees and the sky;
          therefore “blaze” is a mark / marker in / on
          a tree. These trees are nasty spikey little pecker
          poles scarred by bears to where it’s unlikely
          the blaze was carved on a tree, in my
          opinion. That leaves something hanging in
          a tree, possibly a bottle or container like
          maybe a tennis ball container, for instance.
          Just guessing.

          Please everyone stay out of the water.
          The gold has been vibrated by the tromp
          of hiking boots, so says FF in March 22
          2017 reply to Jenny Kile.

    • Hunters? Or searchers? I am a searcher, but not a hunter…

      Thrill of the Chase = Chest for the Hill 🙂

  61. Has anyone wondered why Fennboree is just two weeks before the summer solstice? Does the reference to Indiana Jones relate to anyone’s location that may show a ray of light that points directly to the treasure? Just some random thoughts.

    • (Second try.) Searchers holding the event have been responsible for choosing the dates.

      • pdenver, Junes a nice month for a get together. Did FF have any suggestions as to when to hold the meeting of the minds? Just wondering if he may have had some impute early on.

        • I do not believe he had any input. If I’m not mistaken, Desertphile may have been the person to hold the first Fennboree.

          • Thanks for the clarification. I have considered the possibility that the blaze of the sun from the summer solstice might give a hint to the tc after arriving close to the hide place . Imo

          • Some searchers feel the solstice is part of their solve. Trying to understand the 9 clues in the poem is challenging, but a lot of fun.

          • Michael De wrote – “I have considered the possibility that the blaze of the sun from the summer solstice might give a hint to the tc after arriving close to the hide place.”

            Hey-O, Michael –

            Have to say I’m skeptical about that – it would turn the blaze into a kind of ‘Brigadoon’, only visible for maybe 10 days every summer.

            And then you’d have to figure whether it’s the solstice sunrise, noon, or sunset sun blaze that marks the spot.

            JAKe

  62. Random question…and apologies if this has already been asked but what weight do each of you give to Mr. Fenn’s stated original intentions of dying at the spot the treasure is purportedly located? Does one really think that he would go to that “special place” by leaving his wife and children to forever wonder where his body was located unless and until someone came across it? It just seems implausible to think that someone would put their loved ones through that kind of intentional anguish. No disrespect intended but just curious what you all think.

    • IMO – it was said metaphorically and his intentions were never to physically do this.

      It sort of gives credence to the loation as being a place where someone could die very peaceful and pleasantly.

      It probably is a place that FF thinks is beautiful in many regards.

      Good luck.

    • Of course not. For one thing, it would make the chase a lot easier with search parties and all. The area would be obvious. I think he may have had nice thoughts of doing it, but it seems the statement was more of a support info to a hint. A place that is dear to him, to rest his bones…? Pretty straight forward where he is talking about.

    • His intentions are between him and his.

      As for the place of the idea in the context of this Wild Goose Chase, I’ll quote the original Pooh-Bah:

      “Merely corroborative detail, intended to give artistic verisimilitude to an otherwise bald and unconvincing narrative.”

      JAKe

    • This is f’s latest statement on dying at his special place where the chest resides:

      “Isaac: You said that it was hidden in a place you would like to pass away; can you talk about that?
      Forrest: Well, when our doctor told me I had a turn of, 20% chance to live, I made up my mind that I was going to die, but, but again, I didn’t want, my father had terminal pancreas cancer, they gave him six months to live. 18 months later he was still alive. But he called me on the phone one night and he said “Forrest, I am going to take 50 sleeping pills tonight.” I said “Dad, I will be there first thing in the morning” and he said “That’s too late” and it was. But I respect him because he wanted to do it on his own terms.
      Who says you have to follow everybody else’s rules? And, and that was paramount in my mind, you know, and when they told me I was going to die, ah, OK, I accept that, but I am going to do it my way, not your way. Who wants to be in a coffin six feet under the ground where its dark, it’s cold, you can’t see out. I always said lay me under a big tall pine tree and go on back to town, I mean, every animal on the planet does it that way except the human being, it’s the only animal that doesn’t do it that way; I don’t subscribe to a lot of those things.”

      There are several other comments f has made over the years and I strongly am inclined to believe that ending his life at this spot was his intention… he even had to go back and change the poem after he got better. And his family? I can only imagine he had given that some thought as well.

      f was dying of cancer and everyone was anticipating him to be dead before long, so him ending his life in a similar manner as his father from a couple years previous would have been a strong precedent for what he was planning to do, and one that his family would have understood – not that they would have necessarily liked or agreed with it. f is a very unique man, and I am sure his family is keenly aware and understanding of that… and all that comes with it.

      • Thumbs up JCM……very well put. I think anyone that has spent any amount of time at all researching Fenn would have come to the same conclusion as you.

        Perhaps newbies should spend more time researching instead of asking silly questions.

        • Ditto. However, newbies, IMO…. will learn in their own time and in their own way. Some, sooner than others.

          Hope they’ll enjoy one, incredible ride!

      • Well, lets break it down. Doctors give his dad 6 months. After 6 months, he lives a year and decides it’s time. Forrest gets cancer removed Dec 1988, and gets a 20% chance at 3 years. So, every 20% is 9 months. Forrest then has 3years 9months from Dec 1988, or August 1992. August 1992 is his fate hitting bottom. This is when he gets the idea of this whole thing. He needs to hurry, time. To do what he was thinking of doing will take time, not just one year, so the comment ” him ending his life in a similar manner as his father from a couple years previous would have been a strong precedent for what he was planning to do” would not fit.
        He may have thought a wonderful spot, would be nice to just pass there, but to go out and commit suicide? I don’t think so. Especially a year after he got this great idea. He knew this would take awhile, a lot more than a year, so going out like his dad, nope, don’t see it. On his own terms, yes, maybe, but he wasn’t thinking a year then it’s off to my spot to pass. I think he was thinking more about this great idea he got and how he was going to pull it off. His fate was at bottom, he could go anytime, so planning this whole chase, getting to the spot, swallowing some pills under a tree, before he croaked, just don’t see it. It’s hard to make plans when your time is up, but that’s what he was doing. So, “ending his life in a similar manner as his father”, I don’t see it. Going out on his own terms, if that is what you are saying, then yes, But after a lot of time and planning, which he didn’t have at that point.
        If he wants to go like his dad, are we to hear one day that f disappeared from his hospital bed and no one can find him? He’s going to go someday, do you think by natural causes or by suicide?
        I

        • Hi Charlie – I have no interest in debates or arguments, I just look at the facts and then go from there.

          I am not sure I understand your math on the cancer diagnosis and timing with f. Having stared down a precancerous situation in my late teens that were followed up by several years of monitoring, and then having lost more friends and family to cancer than I want to count, I can say that a 20% chance of living 3 years means that 20% of the people with that type of cancer will still be alive after 3 years, 80% will be dead.

          When you are told you have an 80% chance of being dead in 3 years, you initially lean towards the possibility you will be dead, and you end up thinking a lot about that for the first while.

          After a short-while, most come back to reality and the fact that the sun still comes up in the morning. Those who don’t are usually the first to go.

          If you haven’t read this article, it is a good one where f goes into detail of getting cancer and what his plans were – and what he was trying to do.
          https://stories.californiasunday.com/2015-07-05/the-everlasting-forrest-fenn/

          Sometimes I find it hard to look at a situation without projecting my own thoughts, opinions, beliefs, and whatever else onto the situation. I am getting better at that as time marches on. So it goes with f and his story. While f is an admitted embellisher, he is not a liar; he probably prevaricates and equivocates though.

          I am not going to list off the 10 or so comments from f about his specific plans to end his life at his special spot, they are out there to be discovered. I have to go with the facts on this one and accept f at his word. He intended to end his life at that special place. But he got better and ruined the story; he was one of the 20%.

          Those who are most likely to survive a battle with cancer are ones who engage in something bigger than themselves, not the pity of dying. I suspect f may have survived because of his plan. The drive and determination to complete everything in the timeframe he had caused him to engage in something bigger than himself, and that positive, emotional state likely gave his body the extra something that it needed for him to recover.

          I have done my research, and I know what f has said. I trust him at his word. I feel no need to convince others of what they should believe or not believe or think, I am good to simply call it in the direction that the facts point on this one.

          • Welcome to Difficulty-land JCM.

            Glad you are here…enjoy and good luck!

            :o)

          • I hear you JCM, I’m not questioning his intent, or your analysis of it. I’m just reasoning. You know his comments in the book, 20% 3 years, when his fate hit bottom, he got an idea. After 3 years, he was still up, bottom would be 0%, So, simple enough, 20% equals 9 months. 0% would be 3 years 9 months or aug 1992. This is when he got the idea. I’m just saying, that idea would take time, and, even though he may have wanted to exit like his father, and still thought he would, the idea/plan took over.
            He kept going and so did the plan. He may have first thought about going out with the chest, how somewhat noble he thought, but that changed. If he really wanted to go out like his father, that thought would always be with him. A year, 10 years down the line, whatever, but his thought changed. To me, that means it wasn’t something he truly was going to do, or he would still have that thought.
            I do believe him in what he says. If he says he did, well, I accept that as true. His intent and strength of ending himself does not seem to be too strong. Hence, him changing the whole scheme. Is it because he got better, yes, but you can never know when that day will come. So, to really go out like his father, I don’t think so, not at his core thought. If so, he wouldn’t have changed it.
            Believe me, I have had the cancer bug in my family. I know it is life changing. In fact, the number 57 is just as dominant in my solve as 80 is. So, I’m sure he feels strongly about the time and all that has gone on with it. The thought of going at the chest local, just a passing thought. As true as all the thoughts about it has been, to rob his family like that, don’t see. Whether they should understand or not. A man that has two kids and a wife, just leaving his job, and moving to another state, knowing he has a family to support, entering into something that he was not familiar with, and asking them to believe in him, and it all working out, that is a totally devoted family man. I mean the risk in doing that, to a man that has a family to support, I just don’t see that person being selfish in his last days…

      • Thanks for the reply. I’m sure I’ve missed a lot of things that he’s said over the years but that makes a lot of sense. As I said, I was just curious what everyone else was thinking too.

      • That’s a great possibility, Toby, seeing the man is 87 and moving up in age as we talk. But seriously, what does that fact of age and capability of action or lack of now physical capability, have to do with the original intent?…
        During the late 1980’s cancer was the main concern about length of time left. Fenn stated he didn’t want to die with family around watching this process. He decided an alternative method that was in his control. He asked others [ authors ] to write is memoirs/autobiography which he could place the poem within… apparently there was no takers… Then remission happened and fenn still wanted to place the challenge to all and seek out his special place and lured it with the prize of the the chest as originally planned. The only difference at this point was… he had more time available to him than originally expected.

        Now, or then, 20 years later, he decides it was time to act on his plan and hid the chest… at or around 79-or 80 years of age. As stated in the book, Eric Sloane passed away at 80 [ we never know when or how this will be or any of us. ] BUT again, the original thought was to die with the chest.

        Is there any reason not to believe, if fenn can make that one [1] last trip [ might even have that organized at this moment ] … that it’s not possible it could happen as originally planned?
        Family knew, friends knew, people knew of his original intent.
        Personally, I hope he can fulfill his original wish to go the way he wanted to. If and when that time comes. I would hate to think he would be force not to if he could help it.

  63. Wasn’t there a interview that forrest did when someone asked him about a rental car. he said when I buried the treasure then he caught him self and said when I hid the treasure? Or am I making this up ?

  64. Might as well take my metal detector might find a treasure while looking for a treasure.

  65. Who else knows where the treasure is buried?
    I never said it was buried. I’ve avoided that word. I hid it. I don’t mean to imply that it isn’t buried. I just didn’t want to give that as a clue. It took me two trips in my car to hide the treasure. And I can tell an 80 year-old man is not going to make a trip into a canyon, then come up and go down again. As for who else knows, I’m the only one. My wife doesn’t know. (people.com ` people celebrities article)

    * To answer some questions and save others from being asked, I did follow the clues in the poem when I hid the treasure chest, although I hid it before the poem was complete. (Completed?) f (posted 6/5/2107) MW’s

    OK, So fenn followed the same clues we need to decipher and follow from his poem that will lead to the treasure… However… ‘And I can tell an 80 year-old man is not going to make a trip into a canyon, then come up and go down again…’

    Doesn’t the poem say, “And take it in the canyon down…”?

    My contention for some time now as been, we [searchers] don’t need to travel down a canyon [ some might recall, lol ] What do the above fenn’s comments/Q&A’s say to you?

    • There are different types of canyons. Another thought might be that he drove down a canyon.

      • PD,
        As to the thought of driving down the canyon, we have other after the fact comments to consider as well…
        “If you can’t make two trips from your car to your solve in several hours, then don’t go.”
        fenn has suggested we us the term general solve, unless we know within several feet of the chest.
        IF the solve is ‘complete’ and fenn followed the same route we are told to… the implication that a vehicle should be utilize for an actual solve travel seem unlikely.
        We can add in other comments; fenn walked less than a few miles and made two trips from his car [ because of the weight involved ] All seem to indicated hiking is the method of travel for a ‘complete solve’ ~ start to finish following the clues.

        But lets take it a step further and add, searchers who had the first two clues walked past the other remaining seven and the chest… imo every comment fenn has made about a solve, involves walking. The only mention of a vehicle was to get to the site and two trips made to hide the chest and the contents [ again because of weight involved ].

        So, if fenn followed the ‘same route/clues’ we are told to, and we’re told if we can’t walk several hours to our “solve” ~ not “general solve” ~ driving just doesn’t seem to fit into the picture.

        This leads me to the thought ~’an 80 year-old man is not going to make a trip into a canyon, then come up and go down again…’ might imply
        “we” don’t either.
        The part ~ “then come up and go down again” seems related to the two trips fenn took to the hide, and the fundamental comment: “If you can’t make two trips from your car to your solve in several hours…” The searcher should have to do exactly what fenn did… “I did follow the clues in the poem when I hid the treasure chest”

        Rationally and logically, if fenn, at 79-80 is not going up and down a canyon twice in one afternoon from his car to the hid walking several hours and less than a few miles to complete the same task we’re told to do… Why do we need to travel someplace that he might not have? { when logically taking into consideration of the after the fact comments related to a solve }

        • What are your thoughts about ‘and take it in the canyon down’ vs. what I think you’re saying, that one should not go down the canyon?

          • The thought process here, PD, is that the clues might be closer than many think they are.
            Fenn’s comment about general solve vs. solve might be indicating that we should have a great understanding of the clues prior to going and searching for the “chest”.. not so much the clues.
            IF we understand the clue and/or understand the process of the clue, we should/might in theory see the clues as a combination and not separate or far distance between.

            So, If that thought might hold some truth, then what we think we read as us [ searchers ] traveling down a canyon, and told we should make two trips, like fenn did, is the traveling up and down a canyon realistic to the after the fact statements or is it more logical that the poem is talking about the waters… where that/those waters begin and they/those waters travel the canyon down?

            The question here is, if so, why do we need to understand the course of the waters? How important is that to solving the clues { and lets assume that this is the first clue[s] for discussion purpose } Is this why those searchers didn’t understand they had the first couple clues correct or understand the significance of where they were, and moved along as they saw the poem, and not so much as the way fenn designed the poem [possibly]?

            The one common movement of the searchers seem to be leaving this location and going past all the other clues… WhatIF… we need to know why the waters do what they do, the waters travel, and we need to understand why we start where we are told to start[begin]

            It’s simple a different method of reading the poem… because that is as straightforward as I can be with the wording in the poem. Understanding why “warm waters halt and take it in the canyon down”
            WE are only told this is where to being… we are seemingly told we must travel the canyon down.

            So I ask, Is it possible the location of the waters, the action of the waters need to be known… and… is it possible the waters “put in’ below the home of Brown”? The correct waters halt out of all the many wwh in the RM’s.

            Interpretation doesn’t only mean do know what something refers to. It can also mean we need to understand why it refers to something. Hence the need to nail down the first clue or stay home?

            What is it we’re not understanding right from the get go?

            So I’ll throw this question out [ because I know many enjoy my questions lol ]
            You have what you think is a clue reference to wwwh [out of the many wwwh in the RM’s], you believe it’s the first clue, why is this location/clue so important/needed to be nailed down or stay home?
            I’ll add slightly different;
            Is it only the place to start or is there a reason for it to be this place?

          • Seeker, like you said there are a number of places that WWH and I believe that the first stanza helps us with finding the correct one. I feel like it has helped me anyway. Of course this has yet to be proven.

            Couldn’t the canyon down also mean just follow the canyon down on the map and not with a car, boat, or feet? If put in is where you park and start walking, I know this is probably just an assumption in most peoples eyes, couldn’t you get to this spot from any direction on the road as long as you traced the first part on the map correctly?

            Really like your comment about what if’s. Keeping an open mind about a number of different scenarios until the TC is found is probably the best thing to do. If following the line of thinking of the majority would lead you to the TC it would have been found already.

        • Hi Seeker……I’m still going to have to disagree.

          You wrote:

          “So, if fenn followed the ‘same route/clues’ we are told to, and we’re told if we can’t walk several hours to our “solve” ~ not “general solve” ~ driving just doesn’t seem to fit into the picture.”

          I would think that driving fits perfectly…..because….

          “If you can’t walk several hours”….then driving will allow the seeker to do this within several hours.

          I also believe that the one can take a vehicle through all the clues until the point when you physically have to look for the chest…..which of course requires BOTG.

          I’ve compared walking the whole “path of the poem” to a walking/driving scenario and two trips in an afternoon can be done with the use of a vehicle, but not done by just walking the distances.

          I also now believe the line in the poem – “I’ve done it tired and now I am weak” is related to him creating and placing the “blaze” for us to find. It seems logical.

          If you add this to the time an elderly man can walk (really any man can walk) – you will find that 6 mph is a normal gate. If you are carrying weight (20 #s) that pace is now slowed.

          I’ve also written on a past blog the requirements for a walk in the woods and how long it would take a person. Remember – experience plays a majopr role in speed. For FF – an expert int he field, we can extrapolate that he is well versed in walking with weight (i.e. Air Force physical requirements) and terrain.

          Now if he created the blaze while moving the TC….one can guesstimate that his pace is now probably a bit slower than 6 mph and now could be 3 mph tops. If you add together the weight of his pack, the pace of his gate and his age, two trips in an afternoon, creating a blaze for the poem…..well, all of this data does NOT lead to one believing that it could be done on foot.

          Thus a car was used throughout the trek.

          IMO

          Good luck.

          • Amazingly, there are gait analyses studies out there which show that, for an 80-year-old man on the fitter side, 3 mph is average over level terrain.

          • You’d be surprised on what an 80 yr old man can do. And if he has had some physical conditioning done, then the gait speed could increase.

            It is an interesting look if you have taken the time to do so.

            Good luck!

          • A polite-like email from Kristie, who admits to being a desk person, prompts me to say that if you are walking long distances in search of the treasure, you’re walking too far. F

            Not far but too far to walk.

            If you are walking long distances, you are walking TOO FAR.
            It’s not FAR, it’s TOO FAR.

            You are walking long distances…

    • Perhaps “it” goes into the canyon down, but the searcher does not.

      • With this thought, what would you believe “it” might be? Water source? Road? Something else?

    • I think we have to be careful when we group different comments together in my opinion. It would be an assumption that “follow” is a word he used here to describe a physical undertaking. I would argue that you can make a statement about following instructions or following clues without it meaning he physically walked the path of each and every clue.

      As an example in his reference to someone who has solved some clues correctly and then went or walked past the others, this is yet another area that I would say it can go either way in interpreting and therefore would be an assumption to say he meant physical walking verses the metaphorical use of words. I know this is how I talk all the time.

      Hey by the way, did you catch “in my car” vs to my car? I thought that was something new and interesting.

      • Clee,
        I agree we need to be careful. We also should take advantage of fenn’s after the fact comments and utilize and organize them as best we can. The hope here, imo, is to keep those wild tangents at bay. To attempt to understand what exactly we might need to understand the solve, the poem’s clues, and work out how to proceed with the clues given.

        Sure, In the very beginning of the challenge many thought we [ searchers ] need to travel / stomp out, what, we hope, we interpret the poem to be saying…
        However.. my point here is to understand the ATF comments, to think about the WhatIF’s and not the What We Hope. By grouping many of those comments, it might help us read the poem in the manner fenn designed it, the way ‘he sees it’ and not so much what we think it might be saying.

        Fenn made a comment that he thought of everything. My thought is that, he took time to read the poem from our perspective… from the reader/searcher line of thinking… whether that be botg method, more abstract thinking, use of codes, etc. etc. so that the poem will come to life when read a certain way. The way fenn sees it and not our hopes of how we want it to be.

        That is the process I’m utilizing fenn’s comments for…
        Which relates to my original inquiry; IF fenn is not going to travel up and down a canyon, twice, in one afternoon, carrying a heavy backpack, walking several hours and less than a few miles, while traveling the same route we are told to [ follow the clues ] Then would understanding those ‘groups of comment’ as a whole, help in understanding how the poem might be read as fenn designed it to be read?

        Yep, I agree we need to be careful… but shouldn’t we ask ourselves… if fenn volunteered those comments, how will they influence the possibilities of how those comments might help to interpret the poem?

        LOL, but this also reminds me of the chats about the chest being secreted in water… One comment stated he knows the chest is wet, and dozens of comments talk about, probably wet, throw his body on the chest, left the chest unlock so the finder would damage the chest trying to pry it open, was thinking 1000’s of years down the road, walk right to the chest, how can anything not be wet in the RM’seven if buried… etc etc. and because of one [1] comment saying, he knows the chest is wet, some think it must be submerged.
        If I’m being honest with my self, and reviewing all the ATF comments logically… I can’t see the chest being submerged…
        So, is fenn’s comments he followed the same course of the clues.. and.. an 80 year old is not going up and down a canyon, again [ twice ] a logical assumption the the poem is ‘not’ indicating that we should? But more than likely the waters might be what is “taking in” the canyon down?

        Food for thought and discussions….

        • Seeker: why do you assume all the clues must be walked? Why not a mix of driving the first several clues, and walking the remainder? This would eliminate your “twice up and down a canyon” issue.

        • Btw Seeker, pardon the time-lag on my responses. My wormhole data connection is down, so as Curious Hobbit can tell you my round-trip light travel time from Titan (family vacation) is around 151 minutes at the moment.

    • If there was no need to travel down canyons then this would just be another spectator sport. Not that it isn’t exciting to see Tiger Woods eyeball an eagle but its much more rewarding when you look down the barrel and watch your Titliest do its thing. Without going into detail there’s only so much you can learn in science class thats why they have a lab.

        • Sandy, I always pictured you with a happy face:) Your comment is lacking punctuation and leaves me at a pause. I know its there though even if I can’t see it.

      • Strawshadow,

        No offense, but that doesn’t explain the fenn’s comments. If we’re going to ask fenn questions, and swarm him at the fennmeets… what’s the point if we don’t utilize them as help.
        Fenn answered a direct question of who else knows?… he added voluntarily the part of: “And I can tell an 80 year-old man is not going to make a trip into a canyon, then come up and go down again.”
        Do we just toss that aside because we think we have we have to travel a canyon[s] or other wise we’re just spectators? Funny thing is, fenn also tells us we need to ‘observe’ as well as plan, analyze, and think and use imagination … maybe ‘spectating’ is exactly something we need to do.

        • Seeker, no offense taken, but the last thing I would ask Mr. Fenn is a question. He’s probably upside down and red in the face from questions. There’s a megaton of hints out there and your bookmarks are probably not placed in the same location as mine. Someday, If we ever meet face to face on a corner, I’ll be glad to shake your hand and would enjoy hearing your story of how you got there. Until then both of our views have a different context, neither one more important than the other. Be brave, my friend, and do it your own way. Thats the beautiful thing about freedom in America now, isn’t it?

          • Coffee’s on me should we ever meet on a street corner [ I’m sure there will be a starbucks near by..lol ]

            And while we all have different opinions, isn’t the point of coming to a blog, dedicated toward the chase, and chatting about those difference of opinions? I don’t think this is about how important one’s view is over another’s… Only the different perspectives of thought… which always leads to debates and points of arguments to explain a person’s thought process.

            To be honest Strawshadow, I’ve been backing away from commenting recently because it seems, the more time goes by, the more no one really wants to chat about those WhatIF’s. Lately it’s been more about ~ in my brilliant solve it’s this way and this way only because i work so hard on this… lol.. we all have, but does that say you have the correct understanding of the poem ? because you have all those man-hours invested.

            Again, I’m still baffled that, as many as the “first four clues” could have been solved / indicated and those searchers didn’t know? As well has those who deciphered the first couple clues didn’t know, when on site, told fenn their thoughts and process and walked past all the other clues and didn’t know ???

            If we can’t figure how searchers who live and breathe the challenge can not understand, pretty much everything, even when fenn knows the deciphered the first couple clues… then to be honest, we have little chance of understanding how fenn sees the poem. Unless we can debate the possibilities we might see in regards to how we read the poem.

            And at this stage… the after the fact comments seem to be a must [imo] to help understand what fenn was thinking during the process of creating the poem.

            I’m looking for those ” what took me so long” and “why didn’t I think of that” comments to help, when attempting to interpret the poem / clues in the poem.

            I posted a couple theories I had on this blog.. I did so, for thought and discussions. I know now that those processes were wrong is many aspects when reviewing fenn’s ATF comments… well at least some of those aspects… and would have only known by the ATF comment and logically using those comments as a check and balance.
            Why does it seem, at least to me, we no longer are discussing and more than often only arguing how brilliant our own solves must be? I guess that is just human nature… but it’s not very helpful in keeping an open mind to possibilities ~ WhatIF’s.

          • Seeker, thank you for your positive input. I also stay away from posting simply because I’ve met the shark. Now that comment may not make sense to you but I guarantee you it does. It shows up numerous times in Mr. Fenns books and in real life. Is it a clue? Of course not, the shark is clueless, but it is a hint. Is my solution correct? At this time, no more than yours. We will never know until someone has the chest. I understand Mr. Fenns statements and they make sense to me. Your a very smart and inquisitive person so instead of questioning the logic as inconsistent try and understand how the constitancies logically tie together. The past will always be inconstitant when told by one person at a time. But don’t mind me cause I’m no where near perfect and always the last poor soul to know.

          • A place that is dear to me
            To rest my bones.

            Dear spelled wrong, of course it’s a place dear to him. Why wouldn’t it be, he doesn’t need to tell us that.”DEER”.
            Where do you rest your bones? hotel,motel,house,bed, LODGE?

            Deer Lodge…
            The after comments are big in collecting info and putting it all together. Just like the coins in the chest. Why not just say hundreds like he did with the gold nuggets?
            WWWH, some say a geyser, but that isn’t halting, A dormant geyser system would be warm waters halting. Again, Deer valley. You need nails? There is a hardware store in Anaconda.:) Built by a guy named Robert Nickel. Use to be a train depot.
            These after the fact comments are what you need to discover to get the whole story. Seeker, I agree with you 100%. (even though I said it long ago,lol)
            In one interview a long time ago, he said the blaze is (for lack of a better word, I’m paraphrasing) deceptive. Will throw the searcher off. I hope everyone’s blaze is somewhat, camouflaged…(I still like that word)

    • It’s Fenntrickery. a. In our opinion,”And I can tell an 80 year-old man is not going to make a trip into a canyon, then come up and go down again,” refers to actions after having put in below the home of Brown, and b. makes no sense. If “an 80 year-old man IS NOT going to make a trip into a canyon, then come up and go down again,” either Fenn (it would seem) was not 80 when the trips were made, or there is no need to walk down and up the canyon twice. Or, both. Fenn, substituting a genric 80-year-old male, neither explicitly states HE was 80 or that HE walked up and down a canyon.

      ~ty

      • Toby,
        Umm, trickery?

        “George Burns was 100 years old when someone asked [ if i recall personally, Johnny Carson asked the question ] him how his health was. He replied, ” my health’s good, it’s my age that is killing me.” And like Eric Sloane, at almost-eighty, I figured it was time to act…. [ from the book, not an after the fact comment]

        So the trickery here is to say he hid the chest when he was 79-80, he thought is was time to act because he was also ‘almost-eighty’ is trickery? and using this theory that he was tricking the readers of the book, he also is, tricking us about the canyon comment? Q&A.

        Why then do you bother attending, recording, manuscript anything the man says if you’re going to imply he’s tricking us at anything? To me that would be a deliberate act of misleading… would you not agree?

        With that said, I do agree that we don’t know all the ‘facts’ as fenn knows them.
        Yet, to add ” ‘It’s Fenntrickery.” to start off your comment seems a bit over the top. It means he acted/stated with intent to be deceptive…. I ain’t buying into it. He’s very careful of his wording, but not deceptive, in a misleading impression.

        • You quoted Fenn, “And I can tell an 80 year-old man is not going to make a trip into a canyon, then come up and go down again.” Where in that sentence does Fenn say he was 79 or 80 when he hid the treasure, much less that he was walking up and down canyons?

          Other than in your imagination, I mean.

          As for going to the time and expense of recording the videos…all of them…and making them available to the searching community – YouTube hits. Some of them likely yours.

          ~ty

        • I do agree with you completely on the point you just made Seeker. If someone believes Fenn is being dishonest what’s the point in looking for the chest. If that’s the case the chest could be in India, Waxahatchee, Marrakech, or his backyard for that matter, and we are wasting our time. And even if Toby is correct what is the point, Fenn said not to go where a 79 or 80 year old person couldn’t go.

          Anyway, I know we are on the opposite ends of the spectrum when it comes to how to solve the clues. Which I think is a good thing; if we all agreed this would be nothing but a cheer leading squad and completely boring.

          When coming up with a solution I try to shoot it down by applying all of Fenn’s statements to it. In other words, I ask myself what would Seeker think of this solution. Over the years my method of solving the clues has changed as he has added more information.

          My question to you is how do you reconcile his statements (I won’t put them here, you know what they are) about only being able to solve the first two clues from home and his statements about going with confidence after figuring out the clues?

          • Goofy, you asked a very good question just there.

            The way I see it, if two statements from the same man seem to contradict one another, then one of them has to be wrong. Which of those 2 statements was delivered by Forrest in the most straightforward manner? That’s the one I pay attention to the most. The other can be thrown out the window, IMO. I like to think that Forrest has some fun finding loopholes in some of the questions he is asked.

          • Blex – or perhaps the statements he makes are all individually correct and instead it’s our misinterpretations of one or more of those individual statements that begin to conflict when we try and mash them up. I beleive the later to be true.

            So to piggyback Goofy’s point, if the man is untruthful all our time would be better served elsewhere. If he is truthful and things we are looking at seem to conflict when we put them together then we should turn to our own interpretations for a bit of self scrutiny.

          • Oh boy! your talking about a number of comments [ more factual a number of Q&A’s ] Ok to save space and time… “can not get closer” seems important to me when fenn talked about the RM’s map and the poem [ Little Indy aside]… That’s not the same as saying you can’t get ‘past’ the first two clues… semantics? or factual in his comment?

            If the clues are contiguous… might they be much closer than many have thought in their comments [even mine, with the Time period {glacial period}, and the other with Canada {hob} and the CD] While others rely on the second book { 3 yrs after the fact } as an answer to a piece in the poem. because they feel there ‘must’ be a distance involved that requires traveling.

            The clues at home comment was about “all of them, in theory” If that can be done, I’d think that alone would have a big affect on confidence, and know the path ‘beforehand’ Compared to some postings that narrow it down to a 1 acre parcel, and have all the confidence in the world they will find it there.

            Personally, I lean towards understanding the poem as to the “in theory”… I do believe we might be able to walk to the location [ spot ] of the chest… but there is something we need to do while near that location… to actually find the spot that is hidden so well… I think this includes searcher [ like the one’s above ] who can only get so close and then go on a poke and hope search.
            Call it a fail safe if ya like… If we don’t understand how the poem concludes, complete, completed? we may not find the hide that no one will stumble upon.

            Fenn said with wont’ be a big job get it… But I think he is going to make us work the poem correctly [in full understanding] to get to it. and that might include doing or waiting for something in the field.

            I have a hard time to think that a marker is the headstone [metaphorically] for the location of the chest… why? That would give those searcher who guess the location, work on a hunch, and happen to get close to actually “stumble upon it” I don’t see fenn’s intent of hiding the chest to be, lucky enough to wonder around until we find a marker that basically says ‘you are here’ …

          • Thanks for the response Blex. I try very hard not to throw out any of Fenn’s statements about the clues. It’s easy to come up with a solution if we ignore Fenn’s statements.

            But to answer your question his statements about only being able to solve the first two clues from home have come much later than the going with confidence statements.

            I reconcile the statements by saying he didn’t say where we would proceed with confidence from. Adding that to his recent statements makes me believe we have to solve the remainder of the clues (after the first two) on location. But once we solve the clues on location we can proceed with confidence, no need to be digging or poking around looking for the chest. Not to say digging is not required, just we will know precisely where the chest is.

          • I think I see your point Seeker about the map. Are you saying only the first two clues can be solved using a map and another method (beside being on location) must be used for the other clues?

            If so, the question Jenny asked seems to account for that. Jenny’s question says, “but only has your poem and a map of the US Rocky Mountains”. To me Fenn said if all you have is the poem (no matter how you decipher it) and a map you can only get the first two clues. Do you read the question this way?

            Here’s the complete question and answer, and his statement here, for those that don’t have it:

            5Q) Your treasure hunt has inspired people worldwide to discover history, culture and nature, but many people, (even in the US) might be deterred because they don’t live near the Rockies or can’t afford to travel. Should they be deterred? Can a little girl in India, who speaks good English, but only has your poem and a map of the US Rocky Mountains, work out where the treasure is? And would she be confident as she solves each clue, or only confident when she has solved them all?

            I wish I had another treasure to hide in the Appalachians. The little girl in India cannot get closer than the first two clues. There are many disabled people who are deeply into maps and geography, and they are having a lot of fun.

            http://mysteriouswritings.com/six-questions-with-forrest-fenn-over-five-years-of-the-thrill-of-the-chase/

            Dal, I am sure you remember that the little girl from India was the lark of Jenny Kile, who inserted it into a question she asked me. It might just as well have been a boy from Waxahatchee, where my father was born, or an Arab kid from Marrakech, a city that Winston Churchill said was the most beautiful place in the world. He was an excellent artist and I once sold his oil painting of that city. We are getting a lot of mileage from that little girl from India, doncha think?

            https://dalneitzel.com/2016/02/18/odds-n-ends-about-fenns-treasure-hunt-5/#comment-124066

          • coordinates…Clues 1,2,6,7,8,9 from home. Clues 3-5 BOTG. Could still go in confidence if you have the coordinates. If you had the coordinates, you could walk right to it. WALK.
            Take away that comment of 9 clues in the poem and how many clues would everyone be looking for? That comment was the worse for us searchers. Telling us how many clues, of course we will try to solve for clues. What if you can’t solve all the clues from home? Then it is fruitless to try to solve clues, or know what f considers a clue. He gave us 9 clues, and some more on his website. So, is there more clues, or are there hints? Strike that, don’t want to go there. But hopefully you get what I mean. This chase would last a long time if you couldn’t actually solve the clues from home. Not all anyway. Not in a cemetery, not in Idaho, no structure, lol, are those really clues? Says they are on his website. More like general hints. He didn’t know there were 9 clues until after the fact, we shouldn’t either. So then what, solving the poem gives coordinates. Only way to leave in confidence, last the test of time, etc…Most people have multiple solves, one of them should be with coordinates. I would try that one first…

          • Hi Goofy/All,

            Today you asked Seeker whether he thought only the first two clues could be solved using a map, and then went on to point out that Jenny’s question specified that Little Indy, “… only has your poem and a map of the US Rocky Mountains.” It seems a lot of searchers allow infinite cartographic detail on what is meant by a “map of the US Rocky Mountains,” and I don’t understand why that leeway isn’t more recognized as a potential loophole.

            To demonstrate (through absurdity) suppose little Indy only has the poem and a world globe. Do you think she can find the treasure chest? For the purposes of finding a 10″ x 10″ x 5″ box, is there any substantive difference between a globe and a map of the U.S. Rocky Mountains? Clearly the size and resolution of the map ~is~ relevant, and yet people seem so ready to generalize the intention of Jenny’s question and mentally replace her “map of the U.S. Rocky Mountains” with whatever is “the best map(s) for the task.” Pretend you’re a a robot, or a lawyer. How would you answer? Or better yet you’re Fenn: how do you answer that question truthfully?

          • Zaphod, you hit the nail on the head. IMO, Forrest found a loophole in the question he was asked along the lines that you described and jumped right through it.

            I do believe that the poem can’t be completely solved without BOTG; I just think BOTG is required at the point of looking for the blaze (confidently in a specific location) rather than earlier on in the poem (such as after the first two clues).

          • Hello Goofy, nice to see you engaging Seeker. He gets lonely out there! :)

            “Can a little girl in India, who speaks good English, but only has your poem and a map of the US Rocky Mountains, work out where the treasure is?” – – “The little girl in India cannot get closer than the first two clues.”

            The first time I read it I thought, ‘he is saying she cannot get closer except by identifying/solving the first two clues.’….. Then, everybody started saying that he means no one can solve past the first two with BOTG. So, I reread the Q&A, and checked for confirmation of my understanding.
            …………………………….
            Than: used in expressions introducing an exception – – “he claims not to own anything other than(except) his home”

            Than: except; other than – “We had no choice than(except, other than) to return home”
            ……………………………
            So, yep, I was correct: “The little girl in India cannot get closer than(except; other than) the first two clues.”…..he did NOT say she cannot get ‘further’ than the first two clues, nor that she cannot get ‘past’ them.

            And his subsequent statement about the other lads and lasses bolsters my understanding; regardless of where one actually lives, or resources available, NO ONE can get closer than(except) identifying/solving the first two clues.

            Now, since I am rambling and rumbling, this does not mean I am 100% certain that the Poem can be totally solved at home. I think it is very likely that one must be on site to identify/solve Clue #9…… And it is possible that, at some point well past the second clue, one will have to be on site to identify/solve the remaining clues.

            All he is said in LGFI was, “The little girl in India cannot get closer than the first two clues.”, is she(no one) stands a chance without identifying/solving the first two clues, correctly.

            Sorry about using so many bytes, Goof, and oh yeah……..IMO!!! 🙂

            (hope that’s as clear as mud??) 🙂

          • Well Loco, your hope was fulfilled. That is clear as mud to me. 🙂

            Maybe try to give more examples of what you are talking about. I really do want to agree with you, then I could go back to my super duper topos with satellite and GIS overlays to solve this thing.

        • I’ve been watching this debate for a while and I thing both sides hold merit. It is obvious to me that more people take issue with the characterization (trickery) rather than the idea that Fenn chooses his words very carefully. I feel like this separates people more than the idea itself. I think Mr. Fenn uses words very selectively and I would not categorize it as trickery. We are responsible for our own interpretations and our own assumptions period. Mr. Fenn’s only task in speaking honest truth is to make sure the things he says are correct. Interpretation is in our court and we should not hold him accountable for things that are ours. After all the poem is there for all to See. Just a little IMO.

    • Hi Seeker –

      I want to mention here that myself and another searcher have talked a lot about how those 4 lines describe the water smd the scene. No one wants to hear it. They are all wrapped up on there are 9 clues and a clue is a direction. Fenn has never said that but that is how everybody takes it.

      To me the 4 lines describe the scene so that you can find it. The description is:

      Begin it where warm waters halt and take it in the canyon down, not far but too far to walk and put in below the home of Brown.

      He is describing a vista. If you or I see that vista we are in the correct location. He flat out says he didn’t go down a canyon and the implication is that he is baffled by why people only read the poem that one way. The way where clues are seen as directions rather than as descriptions that you use your imagination to locate.

      Lugnutz

      • Lugnutz,

        I like the thought of description… one thought I had, and just thought, we need to be at a location and view the clues coming forth or from a distance coming to us from the point.

        This would mean that a clue puts us at the location of the chest, while all the remaining clues are to be followed [ line of sight ] to the location we are told to “know where to start” My problem with this theory is, for a couple reasons… 1. the location of viewing must be told to us within the poem and/or the book. 2. Is that location considered a clue or simply the place to at to see all the clues [ keep in mind there are slight variations to the theory ]

        However, with your comment or mine… we now seemingly have fenn’s action that he followed the clues the same as we are told to. LOL now the question is; what meanings of the words “follow” and “lead” did fenn mean?

        But lets jump back to your comment of description. Should fenn be describing a vista… which many times implies a narrow view or opening… Why are we to know that we need to see this area from that particular view point? Another words, is there more to understanding this location or is happening, or is it just a view?

        Could the ‘narrow opening’ have importance to the location? I mean, creek has a definition of narrow passage. Drawing could mean drainage, which could imply a narrow outlet. In the wood could be a phrase interpret for a saddle of a mountain passage…
        Then again, I could be narrow minded in my analyzing..lol.
        We are told we need to observe…told to quickly look down… told to gaze, does “from there” mean to view?
        There definitely seems to be a lot to look for, besides the pretty landscape…. but that is only one interpretation / thought process.

      • Excellent thought, Lug. Thanks for feeding my brain. Hadn’t thought of that angle yet. Brilliant.

      • Lugnutz, I like the idea of a vista. It is one way we could proceed with confidence after figuring out the clues.

        Next question is how big is the vista. Are we on a canyon rim looking at a vast expanse of landscape, or looking at a hidden fishing hole in a small bend in a river. Like Fenn says it’s all about perspective. How big is the big picture.

    • Hi Seeker – I tend to walk very carefully with f’s comment about going down into a canyon, then coming up and going back down. It is the context and circumstances for which the questions were asked in.

      The interview with that Q&A was related to Randy’s disappearance and whether f felt responsible. In a separate question f said:

      “You got personally involved in the search. Why?
      It bothered me. First of all, I’ve said over and over not to look for the treasure in the wintertime. I want all the snow melted and the mud dried before they go. I don’t feel responsible for what Randy has done, but I wanted to be part of the rescue. I can’t go down in those canyons at my age, but I can charter a helicopter.”

      f is specifically referring to not being able to go down into the canyons (those canyons) along the Rio Grande to search for Randy.

      It is a few questions later that traveling into a canyon pops up again.

      “Who else knows where the treasure is buried?
      I never said it was buried. I’ve avoided that word. I hid it. I don’t mean to imply that it isn’t buried. I just didn’t want to give that as a clue. It took me two trips in my car to hide the treasure. And I can tell you an 80-year-old man is not going to make a trip into a canyon, then come up and go down again. As for who else knows, I’m the only one. My wife doesn’t know.”

      The context of the interview is still the same: does f feel responsible for Randy? We just have another question about the search and an aspect of it. Entwined within f’s answers is an element of justification for why he doesn’t feel responsible for Randy; he could not make the trip down and back up 2x at his age in the canyons along the Rio Grande. It is not a place that an 80 year old can go.

      Are there other canyons in the Rocky Mountains where an 80 year old man is capable of going 2x in one afternoon? Absolutely. I have been in many of them throughout my life.

      • JCM…Your interp. about Fenn’s “canyon” comment is a great point to ponder. Randy’s disappearance Q&A seemed straight forward to me until his response to the “buried” question. At the time, I thought of it as you do, but then started to see that he may have switched gears and answered the “buried” question as related to the treasure more so than Randy. That one still goes either way for me, but I tend to lean toward my latter.

        • Hi Ken – I have tried looking at it from that perspective, did f move on from Randy and that whole issue? I tend to think the emotional baggage that f would have been carrying in thinking about Randy’s disappearance, and the likelihood he was dead at that point, is something he couldn’t just switch out of. human nature just doesn’t typically operate that way.

          I look at the two Q&A’s and both are similar in answer… go down into a canyon and he could not do them at his age. There is the consistency in his points for both answers.

          And like I mentioned, there are many canyons in the Rocky Mountains that an 80 year old can go in and out of without problems, so a blanket statement from f saying he cannot go into any canyon is too generalized, and must be applicable to a specific situation – in this case, the canyons along the Rio Grande, which is the context of the Q&A.

          Just my opinion and weird thoughts. 🙂

          • JCM…I agree that Fenn’s emotions concerning Randy were real and foremost at the time. His answers to the Q’s were real as well, in both Q&A. It is still possible for a man of Fenn’s experiences to switch gears from point to point. I leave that door open because it is impossible to know for sure. My thoughts on a solve/theory could make me believe what may not be true to the moment.
            You also state that there are many canyons in RM’s much more accessible to 80 yr. old…that is obviously true as well and indicates he was probably referring to a canyon like the one Randy was in.
            All good stuff to ponder…but not necessarily concrete evidence except in regards to that particular canyon.
            Have a good one…

      • JCM –

        If you have it there is a quote from Fenn that says something like (Randy) He was searching southwest when he should have been Northeast

        Do you have that or does that ring a bell for you?
        Lugnutz

        • I think it was Cynthia that may have said something about it. I don’t think I have add it to my collection as I try to mostly stick to comments that are directly applicable for finding the chest… in this case, the point was about how Randy wasn’t even in a valid place to begin with.

      • That question i quote [ while it was involved with an interview of a missing person ~ Randy ] was a question about; ‘who else knew..’ Fenn volunteered the part about an 80 yr old man not going up and down a canyon,again

        Ok ~ lets say he interjected that comment as the canyon Randy went down… I would think he would have said something like that canyon… but for the sake of argument… could it be that fenn referred to that type or size of canyon? Many travel down exactly the same size and geographical types of canyons in other solves… Fenn also used “canyon” to describe the cracks in his hands, talks about perspective that to an ant a mud puddle looks like an ocean… Could it be that the canyon in the poem doesn’t represent the [ for lack of a better term ] a typical canyon? or even, the dictionary version of canyon?

        We can speculate alternatives here… But the Question was about who else knew… fenn mentioned not only ‘a’ canyon, but also implied up and down again as two trips, and that an 80 yr old is not doing that… seems to me we have heard them before as well. Two trips to hide the chest, even two trips and several hours to a solve. Don’t go where a 79-80 can’t go… that is fenn’s most countable comment from the start of the chase.

        Sure it can be taken as part of the interview and fenn is saying… not that particular canyon.
        But if we take into consideration the full answer, he talks about “two trips” up and down, and an “80 yr old can not go…”
        I could conclude that fenn might have been warning us not to go down any canyon just as easy or even more logical, than that particular canyon.
        Yet I have a hard time to think that a question involving who else knew would mention; a canyon, an 80 yr old and two trips and not going down the canyon. He had other question and opportunity in other question in that interview to bring up ‘that’ and related to, ‘the canyon’ Randy went missing in.

        All speculation as to exactly why fenn stated what he said and when he said it… but it’s nice to be talking about the possibilities and how it might relate to the reading of the poem… minus the kitchen sink. Might be a good question for clarification.
        Kinda like, in the mountains N. of SF, to 8.25 mile N of SF, to 8.25 miles N of the Northern section of SF. Was that only mentioned around the time Randy went missing because he was searching ‘south’ of the known area of the chest? Yet, i’m not sure it was mentioned in that interview, but only add in with “fundamental guides” …
        Maybe in time will find out what he meant. lol it only took 5-6 years for a clarification of the point North of SF.

  66. Any “trickery” perceived is at the expense of the person interpreting what/how Fenn answers a question or makes an ATF statement. I believe the man has been as forthcoming as anyone in his position could possibly be so I always look for his comments in a positive light. I find that as time passes and more comments by Fenn become available, previous comments seem to be easier to digest.
    I believe Fenn’s 80 yr. old up/down canyon comment may be a great indicator/hint statement to pay attention to. It is possible that he is saying that if a searcher is understanding/interpreting the clues correctly that they could go straight to the HOB and get the party started…

    • Hi Frank, I love your posts! Usually I know exactly what you’re saying but this post got me laughing!

      • Jeannie – a good laugh never hurt any one – thanks for your reply – now im laughing

        • That was funny! I was lost on that one, but it was worth it! Haha! Thanks for the laugh, Frank!

  67. Take IT in the canyon down. Take what? Trail.car.horse.boat. train. I feel the IT is more important then the canyon. My solve does have a train in it and it makes 2 trips. There and back. Just my thought.

  68. above someone was talking about a 70 or an 80 being to much for him to go up and down a canyon – well up and down could also mean back and forth- or go and come – its just my opinion

  69. Seeker wrote >>> “OK, So fenn followed the same clues we need to decipher and follow from his poem that will lead to the treasure… However… ‘And I can tell an 80 year-old man is not going to make a trip into a canyon, then come up and go down again…’ Doesn’t the poem say, “And take it in the canyon down…”? My contention for some time now as been, we [searchers] don’t need to travel down a canyon [ some might recall, lol ]
    —————————————————————————————–
    On that point, seeker, I agree with you. But there’s another problem with assuming that one needs to walk down into a canyon. Fenn has also said that from where the chest is hidden, you can see, among other things, mountains. You can’t see mountains when you’re down in a hole.

    But … Seeker also said >>> “let’s take it a step further and add, searchers who had the first two clues walked past the other remaining seven and the chest… imo every comment fenn has made about a solve, involves walking. Seeker then concluded that >>> ” the implication that a vehicle should be utilize for an actual solve travel seem unlikely”.

    Oh how I disagree with that. In the first place, Fenn did not say “walked past the other remaining seven [clues]”. The cheat sheet shows what he actually said: “Some folks mentioned the first two clues … and then they went right past the other seven”. People WENT past 7 clues. Which could easily mean … by car.

    Secondly, Fenn has said that, in theory, a searcher could determine all nine clues from home. To my knowledge he has never said you have to be BOTG to determine all nine clues. Again, as with … went vs. walk, being able to identify clues at home implies a much different geographic scale than you are assuming.

    Posters absolutely do not want to talk about “geographic scale”; I have tried it 2 or 3 times in this blog; posters skim right by it. And more to the point, in most of your discussions, seeker, you assume a scale that, in my opinion, is incorrect. Further …

    Fenn said: “I made two trips from my car to the hiding place”. That quote is also in the cheat sheet. There is no indication in that quote about distance from car to hiding place. But the implication is that after he had driven, by car, a certain distance following several of the nine clues, he then parked, got out of his car, and proceeded to the hiding space, returned to the car, then made a second hiking trip to the hiding space. And none of that involved walking down into a … “canyon”.

    Searchers need to consider everything that Fenn has said, not just a comment here and another comment there. Even more important, searchers need to understand the concept of “geographic scale”. Whether searchers know it or not, their existing and future solutions do in fact have a definable scale. And they better understand Fenn’s clues in relation to that scale.

    Ken (in Texas)

    • @Ken In the latest Lure Q&A, Mr. Fenn also said: “But, the people that were within 200 feet didn’t know that they were that close to the treasure and they walked right on by it. He also hinted at the total distance he walked when he made 2 trips from his car to hide the treasure, which was “less than a few miles”.

      • nmc …In the cheat sheet of dal’s blog here, under the heading “Fenn has said”, kindly read item # 6. Notice the word “went”.

        You also said: “He also hinted at the total distance he walked when he made 2 trips from his car to hide the treasure, which was “less than a few miles”.”

        nmc, yes, “less than a few miles” could mean 200 feet or 20 feet, for that matter. Your quote from Fenn does not invalidate the probability that the poem’s initial clues pertained to driving, not walking.

        Once again, the issue is one of geographic scale. Do you not think that geography is important?

        Ken (in Texas)

        • Ken I most certainly do believe geography is important, but probably not in the same way you do. As to the “went” comment taken from the “cheat sheet”, I am familiar with it. The fact remains Mr. Fenn made both comments, so while “went” doesn’t preclude searchers drove past the spot, it’s clear some have also “walked” past it. It’s possible that “went” is associated with the 500 ft. searchers, and “walk” is associated with the 200 ft. searchers. That fits the geography quite nicely.

          • nmc…that is a great point and certainly could be a descriptive hint from Fenn(maybe not intentional). “Went” vs. “Walked”…500 ft. vs. 200 ft.

    • Ken,
      As nmc pointed out fenn has made the comments about searchers “walking” past, by, etc. not only the clues [ remaining seven clues ] But the chest it’s self.
      one is from T&E podcast; “It’s not a matter of trying it’s a matter of thinking… sure, I mean people have figured the first couple of clues and unfortunately walked past the treasure chest.”

      There are many statements and Q&A’s about the first two clues… the remaining clues… and the chest… My overall concept is; [imo]
      fenn is talking about searcher in an active search mode.

      Some searcher got to the location by aberration [ a good guess or something different ]. But oblivious to the connection in the poem. [The above podcast mentions “people” as searchers] [ i personally don’t think fenn is talking about tourist in his comments ]

      fenn has used words/terms of went by, walked past, first two clues deciphered, indicated, told of, mentioned figured.

      fenn has stated, some have told him exactly where they have been and that is how he knows how close they were [ to both the first two clues and the chest ]. walked him through their process [ of their solve and or search ]

      So, after much reading and debating with other posters over the years about those comments… I personally can’t come to a conclusion of a different mode of transportation used ‘in’ search mode, however, I highly doubt a personal vehicle [owned, rented, borrowed etc ] is involved or needed. It makes no sense to me fenn wants us in a car traveling from one place to another… especially, now that we know fenn followed the clue the same way we are told to in the poem…
      add; he walked twice in one afternoon to hide the chest, and he walked less than a few miles all from the point he park his vehicle at, doesn’t say to me, he used that vehicle in any movement of the clues in the poem.
      To be fair, I also can’t eliminate other modes of transit such as a transit boat, aerial tram, or a tour vessel [depending on a searchers area and the need for such]

      With all that crap said… I also have to eliminate horse, quads, bikes etc. those means of transport would eliminate the need for two trip carrying the box contents and then the chest. In my opinion, and after reviewing all the many comments [ATF] ~ hiking is the only mode fenn used and is telling us to do the same.

      “If you can’t make two trips from your car to your solve in several hours, then don’t go.”
      “Don’t search anywhere an 80 year old man could not carry a heavy backpack”

      • It is fairly obvious that Fenn used a vehicle to actually get to the point where he exited said vehicle and took off with the first load. So…having said that…it also makes sense that the Poem must explain how to get to that “place” where one exits the vehicle. So…either there is a lot of extra directions in the poem before the clues begin…or…the “clues” tell how to get to that point where one exits said vehicle to start the hike.
        I don’t think that anyone can magically appear at the site without the Poem divulging the location beforehand. But…I wish that the Poem explained how to also get tons of time off to search full time.

      • Seeker,
        are you ever going to give us peasants an inkling as to what it is you do in real life, that is if in fact, you’re not the real Dr Phil?
        Or maybe an insurance salesman because I feel that you ALWAYS play it safe. Not saying your philosophical approach isn’t valued, please don’t take it the wrong way. Surely you’ll receive an ‘honorable mention’ once this wraps up.

        It’s just that you’ve worked so hard trying to understand the mechanics of the poem, except I picture you always wearing surgical garb, never letting TTOTC germs get on your person.

        Almost like you’ve taken on that co-star role, the invaluable sidekick, the Dr Watson…unfortunately there’s no second place or best supporting medal in this chase.

        When ff related this regarding ‘treasures bold’, he could of been speaking of someone like you, “I could describe the cultures from which they came but bloggers would analyze my comments into perpetuity”

        Humor us a bit, get a little giddy/ less clinical, try to fain some excitement, yeah it might be what some would call “childish behavior” but we’re all going to be wearing diapers again. Just got an idea, next trip I’ll put one on to save time in transit.

        • 9clues,
          I’m a person with a dry, sarcastic, and even warp sense of humor. I’m not a superstitious person, and I like tangible related facts and fact findings. I’m not a pessimist nor a optimist, I lean towards a realist. I don’t down someone for their ignorance, but I can’t stand stupidity. I like a good debate and presented arguments for that debate issue [even a good heated debate]… but I don’t care for verbal fighting. I do tend to have a long fuse for the most part, and tend to have a fast fuse for some parts. I do have an vivid imagination, however, It does come with a warning label.

          How I perceive the poem relates to my personality… I have to use common sense for the most part, and attempt to understand fenn’s intent, using common sense. If i leave that common sense out of the equation, all you have from me are postings;
          I know within 3′ or 12′ of where the chest is. I have the correct solve because I figured it out in the way home from my search. I would be explaining how right I am and how wrong ya’ll are. I wouldn’t ask question to provoke a discussion, I would just tell you how brilliant I am. I would have a corner of my room dedicated to my new deity or carry a small suitcase with my fenn doll everywhere I go, and be paranoid to give out any kinda of real conversations, but talk in the snake language of Voldemort ~ so no one knows what I know, so you don’t know that I truly know it.

          If anyone is upset about what I have written, please refer to the first clue in my comment.

      • As I predicted, in the responses to my above comments, nobody has used the concept “geographic scale”. I don’t think posters know what it means, and don’t want to mess with learning.

        Seeker, you have forever maintained that no driving is involved in the clues. So how do you rationalize away what the poem so blatantly states >>>

        “… but too far to walk”

        In all your verbiage, and for everyone agreeing with you, again, how can you blithely ignore what Fenn has yelled out in the poem?

        Ken (in Texas)

        • Ken – the only walking that I can see is from where he parked his car to hide the treasure and it started – from in the wood – imo that hob -wwwh- and the blaze – are just places that guide you to in the wood – and are places that you don’t have to search – just places that you have to know what they are and where they are – so imo and how I understand the poem – your driving doesn’t stop until you get to in the wood and from there to the treasure its not to far to walk all this is just my opinion

        • Ken, I’ve given a lot of thought to geographic scale especially since Fenn’s comment about perspective. Not so much about map scales, but how big of an area is covered by the clues.

          Or do the clues cover different scales. For example we know it’s too far to walk to HOB, but where is it too far to walk from? From WWWH or after taking the canyon down. Is too far to walk taking the canyon down? Or is it too far to walk after we take the canyon down.

          So the question is, from where is it too far to walk from?

          Does the scale of the poem change? How close together are the clues once we get to home of Brown? Miles, feet, inches?

          We had an extensive discussion about this a few years ago; but I still find it to be interesting.

          • And don’t forget….you can cover an area the size of Philadelphia with your thumb.

          • Bob,
            something tells me Fenn wasn’t talking about ‘scale’. Think there was a deeper meaning.
            from wiki: The first atomic bomb was detonated on July 16, 1945, in the Trinity test in New Mexico; Oppenheimer later remarked that it brought to mind words from the Bhagavad Gita: “Now I am become Death, the destroyer of worlds.”

          • It came from his book when he was flying at night on the east coast and realized he could (paraphrasing) cover Philly with just his thumb. It just occurred to me as I was reading your post. Good fortune to you on the search.

          • Interesting theycallme9clues. Would it be the thumb that releases the bombs?

        • Ken,
          And understand, these are only thoughts…
          There are many ways to interpret the poem. I have thought that, Not far, but too far to walk, linked to time. This would allow the poem to be read as… over a period of time… hence my post on the glacial period.

          Keep within that line. I have thought that distance is about the waters themselves… linking to the watershed of the RM’s and all it tributaries.

          Now, while they might be wrong… the whole point of posting them was to get opinions of others involved in the same challenge and interest. The idea was to look at the poem longevity, how the clues could still be deciphered 1000 years plus from now, and if possible, solvable in the past as well.

          However over the last 7 years, fenn’s involvement ~ Q&A’s etc. ~ has given all of us insight of what some of those WhatIF’s could be… realistic or just fertilizer.
          As I explained in my comment to you above… I can’t “prove” if or if not a vehicle was used for the purpose of traveling the clues. But my intent was to use logic and common sense to explain [ with the use of fenn’s statements ] how unrealistic that fenn would drive out clues. The man wanted us out of the house, out of the game rooms, out into the wilds of nature and into his church… I hardly doubt he wanted that all done from the driver seat of a Ford sedan.

          Here’s what I see with most arguments as of late on the blog[s]… the lack of all we have learned over the years. Example; fenn stated once that he knew the chest was wet. There have been many other comments about the same subject of the chest submerged or not. “probably wet” “wind can effect it” “throw his body on top of the chest” etc,
          Yet, others debate the water theory as correct with only one and one only comment. Can either way be proven at this point… no, not proven, but logic dictates we need to see all the information presented and not just a single comment and call it factual.

          Keep in mind, that my conversations and inputs are not presented as fact or factual. But I do attempt to utilize as much as I can, and know of, over those past seven years to keep me from running a muck in the mud.

          We can disagree all we want… I encourage all to do just that, disagree with me, show me how it’s possible that your thought can be conclude as logical, knowledgeable, and use fenn’s own words as part of your presentation and thoughts…

          Just saying, I think it’s this way… doesn’t stand the litmus test. IF we’re really going to have a deliberate and useful discussion on possibilities, on whatIF’s, on thoughts and ideas… we have a ton of information available to be utilize, and more coming in almost on a daily basis from fenn. So I presented my points using some of fenn’s comment and attempted to explain my logic behind them… I ask you and anyone else… tear those comments of mine to shreds, explain how they just don’t seem realistically plausible, and use fenn’s comment to back up your thinking.

          Personally Ken, I hope you come back and do just that. I don’t know you, but you seem level headed, and a common sense personality… So I welcome your input.

          • I see you have all your chips on every number again on the roulette table.
            That is not realistic thinking.

            Why don’t you go to the poker parlor & go all in on something.

  70. Did fenn hide the treasure the same year the feds raided him for grave robbing?

    • In his 2010 book “Finders Keepers”, Craig Childs wrote that he handled the Wetherill bracelet at Fenn’s house in 2009, a few weeks before the fed encounter.

      http://www.houseofrain.com/rantsandwritings.cfm?mode=detail&id=1244828777306&group=writings

      I’ve read most of Childs’ work (before I ever heard of The Chase), and as far as I know he’s never mentioned The Chase in any context. His “House of Rain” is excellent if you have any interest in Anasazi archaeology.

      JAKe

      • Jake…that is a good find for sure for those who believe Fenn is not on the up and up in terms of secreting the chest in the timeline he has presented.
        Thanks for putting that out there…

        • I sure don’t see any reason to doubt the orthodox 2009/2010 timeline.

          And even if the Early-Hide advocates are right for whatever reason . . . what difference does it make? The haystack I’m searching already has plenty ’nuff hay in it.

          JAKe

          • In 2009 my solve was heavily flooded in areas. No access at all to them. That’s why I asked bro so it helped me a little.

    • LOL!! Don’t say that, Steve. I would hate to think that I’m traveling down the road with a trunk full of hot treasure. 🙂

      • Na it’s not hot lol. I think when fenn was doing his thing there wasn’t even a law against it.

  71. Doubt this will help anyone much, but has anyone ever noticed that one of the anagrams for Fenns dog (and place in NM) “Tesuque” is:

    Tesuque = “Ue Quest”

    “Ue” is a stem changing verb and would change the point of view with quest.

    Ue quest to cease.

    • Love that! Thanks. Here’s one back: I can keep my secret where… secret= c trees (see trees, or cottonwood trees… Fenn’s dog’s name means “village of the narrow place of the cottonwood trees.” Perhaps the TC quest ends in a little wood of cottonwood trees… 😉

  72. Ever notice that when you first tell your friends and family that you’re going on a treasure hunt, they smile and say things like: “how exciting I hope you find it!”. But when you tell them you are going on your 11th trip to search for said treasure they look at you like you have 3 heads?
    Just one of my observations.

    -Randawg.

  73. I got flack from my 93 yr old Aunt for being “frivolous “!
    I reminded her that my Mom, her sister, bought Publishers Clearing House crap for 35 yrs, hoping to hit it big with the prize patrol. She ordered her 5th spaghetti strainer the month before she passed, and still no win. Mom told me a week before she died…”NEVER give up on your dream, keep searching and enjoying it forever, it can’t be a bad thing if you are in the mountains!
    Gotta love Mom’s attitude!

  74. I let one of old timers I metal detect with read the poem thinking he would come up with the solution lol. And his only reply was it’s not the destination but the journey that’s important.

  75. Anyone ever wonder if a pack rat could discover the treasure chest ? They are attracted to shiny things and will hide objects that become encased in their rat midden. The objects could become hidden for a very long time. Forrest should have locked it! (Keep out Riff Rat 🙂 uh, I mean raff )

  76. There wasn’t a reply option where I needed to post this, so I’ll start here. This is in response to comments above from “ken”, “seeker”, “Bob Miller”, Goofy, and a couple of others.

    I think searchers need to pay more attention to geographic scale, or as Goofy said “perspective”. My preferred map scale is :1:24K, because it shows lots of detail. But that’s not really what I mean by scale. In the context of the treasure hunt, “geographic scale” is simply >>> the total distance traversed (by any means) from the first clue to the chest. Or as Goofy says: “how big of an area is covered by the clues”.

    For some searchers, notably seeker, their scale seems to cover a very small area; seeker says it’s Fenn’s way of getting us out of the house to do more hiking; hence there are no driving clues in the poem. I maintain that the search area that the clues cover is much bigger, and therefore, some but not all of the clues involve driving directions.

    Perhaps the most important question of all is … where does the first clue point to? That’s a question that applies to all searchers regardless of the scale they use. My impression has been that most searchers pick a start location either because they are familiar with it from living not far away, or they extrapolate the chest’s general location from locations mentioned in TTOTC. I disagree with both of those approaches because they ignore the non-personalized geography of the Rocky Mountains.

    My start location is spelled out rather clearly in the poem itself. That gives me a “general region” of the Rocky’s, too big of an area to search by walking, but effective in eliminating approx 99 percent of the Rockys. Within that region then, I find a credible WWWH; all subsequent clues further narrow down the location within the region mentioned by the first clue.

    Fairly early in the poem, Fenn writes: “… too far to walk”. To me that is the clearest indication that some of the initial clues pertain to driving, not walking. Goofy asked: “from where is it too far to walk?” In my solution, the answer is from WWWH. That distance, for me, is approx 16 miles., with “canyon down” providing the direction. Thus, each clue subsequent to WWWH functions as a vector, that results in a change of driving direction and the distance to traverse. Not until I reach “waters high” do I exist my car and begin hiking. The hiking distance is roughly 500 feet, over uneven terrain, to the blaze. From WWWH to the chest, the scale does not change.

    Total distance traveled by car = approx. 25 miles. Total hiking distance = approx 500 feet, one way. That’s the geographic scale for my solution.

    I don’t know how searchers such as seeker can justify an almost complete absence of driving from the clues, when the poem itself says that something is “too far to walk”. That phrase comes after WWWH, so surely at least a few of the early clues must be driving directions.

    Seeker has proposed that the phrase “too far to walk” relates to time, on a glacial scale of thousands of years. I can understand that most clues need to be valid a thousand years from now. But why not have both? I propose that the same poem clues that are given for the benefit of contemporary searchers can also be used by searchers a thousand years from now. It’s all in the way the poem is written relative to the geography of the target region, with double meanings applicable for different generations of searchers.

    I think it would be a good exercise for a searcher to map out his/her clue locations, to determine the extent to which the poem’s clues relate to driving, vs. walking. I also think it would be good for searchers to ponder how they arrived at their start location. If the answer is because the searcher knows the area because they live or have lived in that general area, searcher might want to rethink that approach. It would be highly coincidental for Fenn to hide the chest in an area that some searcher is familiar with.

    If one’s start location is selected because of locations mentioned in TTOTC, that would be risky, because it results in a poster feedback loop that strongly suggests the problem of “groupthink”. The Yellowstone/Gallatin region is the perfect example of groupthink..

    Maybe this discussion occurred before I came to this website two years ago. But I don’t recall reading about it recently. Start location and geographic scale are two of the most important factors in determining where and how to search.

    Ken (in Texas)

    • Ken…that is a great way to look at the initial approach to the clues in the poem. THE start “place” is a must…and unfortunately no one searcher is going to arrive there without some sort of vehicular travel. I also agree that the Poem’s clues are unilateral in reference to “time”…”1000 yrs….” and that there must be at least one clue that enables a searcher to know without a doubt where to exit the vehicle…I think more. OK, I think two.
      I like how you mentioned what you believe folks do to choose where to begin. I personally do not know how folks do this for sure…but I do believe it comes from the stories in TTOTC. I just do not believe that Fenn has divulged any major story or info in a story that mentions by name the place where the treasure is. Makes zero sense for a lot of reasons. All of the information is in the Poem with a splash from the book here and there.
      I believe there is more than one reason why Fenn warned that the path would not be direct…and that this thing would not be done on a Sunday picnic. I think even after breaking through the biggie(where to start) that there is a ton of work to do. All of the slicing and dissecting is not going to amount to a hill of beans w/out the “place”….and that is one example of where imagination comes in to play.
      Nice post Ken(in Texas) and I DO like geography…. a lot.

    • Very nice post Ken – Thanks.

      I agree 100% that geographic scale is very important. My “driving” distance = about twenty miles. My hiking distance has grown from one mile one-way to about 4 miles one way. My hiking distance bothers me, but that is where the poem has led me. I am almost 75, with heart problems. I hiked about 3-1/2 of the 4 miles once, and back. I will not do it again…it was just too hard on me. I now have to rely on others to do my final search. I am in POOR shape, I admit, because of my heart problems. I am FAR too sedentary, but I just do not have the energy to be more active. From all appearances, today, Forrest is in better shape than am I, and he is about 10 years older than I am.

      Anyway – SCALE IS important, and certainly the starting location (as clearly dictated by the POEM (not ttotc or where you are familiar with) are key elements…not to be taken lightly.

      Thanks for your clear post. JDA

      • JDA…sorry that you cannot be more active for your search. Maybe it will all work out for you in the end.
        Good luck when you go…and have a good family outing.

      • JDA,

        Do what I did, take on a partner who lives in your state close to your area. I too have issues but have been out BOTG 4 times (twice in same solve). I have heart issues, diabetes, and a slew of other illness. I had to face the fact that I just can’t do it as frequently as I can, due to money, distance (I am in FL), and health.

        My solve requires well over 100 miles from WWWH, but less than 1 mile of hiking. I end up less than 100 miles as the crow flies from where I started, but the trip the poem takes me from clue to clue is long and NOT direct. Its not a complete circle though, more like 90 degrees shy of being back at the start.

        Simply put, “Look at the big picture, your destination is small but within a HUGE area”. You only walk the last part, and that is where most of the clues are. If you solve the first 2 clues and are still walking, your solve is wrong (IMO of course).

        Anyway, good luck with your health and get a partner. As Forrest would say “Part of some is better than all of nothing.”

        • Whyimustgo,

          How do you get around the comments… people have figured out the first two clues and unfortunately walked past the chest.
          And
          Searcher have told fenn the first two clues, and walked past the remaining clues.

          How can the clues be 100 miles in scale and searcher -people walk by the clues and the chest?

          Don’t get me wrong, I have had large scale theories also, but i can’t dismiss fenn saying those comments just because i like my theories.

      • JDA ~”I am almost 75, with heart problems. I hiked about 3-1/2 of the 4 miles once, and back. I will not do it again…it was just too hard on me.”

        We have been warned not to go where an 80 yr old man can’t go carrying a heavy backpack.
        Told if we [personally] can’t walk several hours to our solves twice [ also, obviously, carrying a heavy load ] don’t go.

        Unfortunately… this challenge is not for all… physically [ some just can’t do it on any scale ] It’s just common sense that some will not be able to physically execute the movements that fenn has stated… exactly how physical is the actual challenge might not be know in our life time.

        But fenn had two good legs, two good arms, two good lungs, seemingly fit for a man of 80, and years of experience in these types of activity.

        IF you are going to give your solve to another… fenn also has given us food for thought here. So, ya better prepare your heart for a big let down when and if the other stiffs ya.
        IF it’s only the loot ya want… the lure of gold… you better make sure you have all the i’s dotted and t’s crossed and understand… that doesn’t guarantee dang thing either… Or make sure you have a large supply of kleenex tissues.

        Just being straightforwards….

        • Thanks Seeker. Family members who have been with me from day-one are my search team. If you can not trust family members, you might as well cash it in and go to the other side. Having said that, there are a couple of family members that I would NOT trust with my “solve”…no matter what. My search team is made up of four (occasionally five) members that I would trust with my life, an in whom I have entrusted my solve. Getting at least two of them to make my final search is my hope…Summer schedules are hard to mesh together though. Time will tell. JDA

      • JDA: Let me echo Seeker’s and Ken’s thoughts and express my sympathy for your medical situation. In today’s world, most of us do not have physically demanding jobs (I drive a computer all day), which contributes to heart disease, diabetes, weight gain, low metabolism, and just an overall loss of fitness and stamina. The good news is that much of this is reversible — even in one’s 70s — but it requires overcoming the Catch-22 that you mentioned: finding the energy to be more active in order to have more energy! That aside, let’s examine the hiking distance in your solution:

        “My hiking distance has grown from one mile one-way to about 4 miles one way. My hiking distance bothers me, but that is where the poem has led me.”

        As Seeker pointed out, you are right to be bothered by your hiking distance — particularly if it involves elevation gain. You know the two-roundtrips-from-your-car-in-several-hours Forrest quote by heart, and have done the math on what this means. I think anything over 4 hours is getting overly generous with the word “several,” so to get under Forrest’s wire you’d need to average 3 mph while carrying 25-lb loads for half the distance, all of this at altitude. If it’s fairly level ground on an established trail, I’d say it’s barely doable for a fit 80-year-old. Off-trail, no way. (And I think we all know Forrest’s attitude about hiking on a trail).

        But I have no doubt that you’ve weighed all these points, and since you are sticking with your solution it means you really like it and are accepting some leeway on that one statement from Forrest — perhaps allowing “several” to stretch to 5 hours or even 6, which would still fit under the definition of “in an afternoon.”

      • JDA,
        Sorry to hear Mother Nature has got you down.
        If I was you, I would get some prescrip 02 & you will be going up that hill like a young man again.

        You need to check it for yourself, don’t you?

        02 goes along ways when you need it.
        I have a felling you will be out there this summer searching.

        • I have a prescript for an oxygen concentrator. Battery life = about 4 hrs. Enough last time to get me ALMOST to where I needed to go, but not quite. I would LOVE to check it myself, but I also do not want to die in the process. I have passed on to my teal all that I know, which I think is enough for them to find and retrieve it. I will go
          again this summer, and I will go part way to the “Hidey” spot, but my team will get the pleasure of the actual find and retrieval.

          I should know soon when schedules will all mesh. High Hopes abound. JDA

          • I know you have the prescrip for the concentrator but i think you need the real thing at this point & it can only help.

            I’m not a doctor but I do know more 02 will help with your condition.
            Get the green bottle with the highest flammability rating & don’t have any smokers around.

          • Thanks Jake and Covert One;

            Yes, it will all be videotaped. The O2
            concentrator is “the real stuff”, and comes in a back-pack which is easier to manage than a bottle. I have tried both, and the concentrator lasts longer and is easier to manage, but thanks for the suggestions. JDA

    • Ken TX, [ first, great discussion for thought ]

      I have imagined the scale from a larger perspective to a small perspective and even a single location perspective [ all clues within the same location ]… fenn’s comment [ paraphrasing ] the location is huge the destination is small. Doesn’t help much as to, how huge, but as for the destination, we have a scale… a place where a body and chest can be out of sight from being stumble upon. We know this because of “precisely” Not only to “follow” but to come to the “end” we desire to be at.

      My problem [ when I say “problem” that means; a logical thought process for something to work or not work, line of thinking ]. IF a vehicle is ‘needed’ for traveling the clue because, a none walk-able distance between clues are involved… do we truly need to travel them physically in a vehicle? What would be the purpose of this method of travel? Could we not simply “follow” on a map [ example GE with zoom capability or a good/right map with the correct details]?

      I would need to be able to answer the reasons to those questions, before considering a vehicle as the needed mode of movement. I also think we need to keep in mind that this is a poem. It might be just my thinking, but to lose the value and freedom of word usage for interpretation and strictly think linear and literal takes the line in the poem to mean only what we hope it might mean. Because of that linear, literal thought process.

      We have many after the fact statements from fenn that we should attempt to utilize with understanding the poem’s and / or our travel…
      I’m sure you know them, but will give a short list for thought;
      We are told to be able to travel several hour, twice, to our solves. or don’t go.
      Told he traveled less than a few miles, twice, in one afternoon.
      And again, the huge area to small destination.
      Told of geography as “might” help and the use of GE “and/or a good map.
      We also have a time line that fenn took to ‘go from the car to the hide’ And we now know fenn actually followed the clues that we have been told to do. Logically, would you not say that his route should be our route?

      I can understand by your thoughts ‘solution that there is a possibility we might need to cover an understanding of a geographical scale… but is it necessary to drive the clues ‘or’ is it possible to just understand how the clues work in tandem? I need a reason for the need to be at those clues /clues reference, and need to drive those clues on such a large scale to understand your ~ drive vs. hike solutions.

      I just can’t say, ~ ok, my solve involves 16 miles, 20 miles, 50 miles for an overall first point to last point and conclude I must use a car to go from clue to clue. How can you justify without a logical reason to counter act… wanting folks out hiking the wilds of nature, or out of the house to get into a car, he walked, warns us to be able to walk …Etc.

      There is a difference between “following” as to a physical movement [ car included ] to “following” in understanding the process.
      With that said, should the clues be apart by the distance you mention… can you explain why we ‘need’ to be at those point and not just locate them on a map or GE and allow them to “lead” us to that small destination?

      I’ll add, as I did in another post, there could be a possibility of an onsite transportation that can be utilized… ex. an aerial tram. But my thoughts here go back to fenn’s state of mind… thinking 1000 plus years down the road. You stated; ” I propose that the same poem clues that are given for the benefit of contemporary searchers can also be used by searchers a thousand years from now.”
      If so, how can we know what any mode of transportation usable today will be usable tomorrow’s ? future.

      If fenn thought of these method and timelines, I would think [ for the purpose of “following” clues ] hiking is the only reasonable guarantee method in any time line.
      This is why I have asked the question; Could folks like Osbourne, Meek, or L&C solve the clues? If future-searcher should be able to, would it be fair to say, generation-past would be able to as well?

      ~I really like the thought provoking process of this conversation Ken. Thanks for that.

      • Personally, I like to drive first and then hike while following the clues.

      • I’m not that concerned about scale myself; except then I step on it and it tells me I weigh too much. That’s when I’m concerned about scale….IMO

      • Seeker wrote: “but is it necessary to drive the clues ‘or’ is it possible to just understand how the clues work in tandem? I need a reason for the need to be at those clues /clues reference, and need to drive those clues on such a large scale to understand your ~ drive vs. hike solutions.”
        —————————————————–
        Seeker, if my idea about driving vs. walking is correct, it is NOT necessary to physically drive the entire route. It’s only necessary to understand the route on a map.

        In my solution, for reasons I won’t mention, I don’t need to physically drive to WWWH. I drive in from another direction. But after a number of clues, I must drive the route Fenn refers to, because it dead-ends at waters high. A dead-end, or rather only one way to get to the location, is another reason I like my solution.

        And yes, Lews & Clark, and other explorers from centuries past, as well as searchers from the distant future could follow the route Fenn has mapped out in the poem. You don’t need a car, a buggy, a horse, or a flying UFO to get to the location 🙂

        If I could offer just one critique of your analytical philosophy, it is that you are taking the words Fenn’s uses in his post-poem interviews too literal. Verbal discussions are not always well thought out, or precise, for anyone. By contrast, “too far to walk” in the poem was very carefully thought out; Fenn had years to ponder his wording.

        Ken (in Texas)

        • Ok, so the basic solve would then be, know how to get to a place close to your ending solve and walk to the chest from there. [ If I’m reading you correctly ~ don’t need drive the clues out, but park at heavy loads and water high ]

          Again, with many of fenn’s comments; folks have been at the first two clues and walked past the remaining seven clues and the chest. I’m not sure how you can’t take this / those comments literally; “… people figured out the first couple of clues, and unfortunately, walked past the treasure chest.”

          For that to be correct… there must be a big gap between the clues [ large scale area like you seem to suggest ] Ok, IF so, What would be the reason that Little Indy can not get closer than the first two clues with the poem and a map of the US Rockies, and all the searchers that have deciphered the first two clues [ fenn’s words; a few, several, more than several, many, {and more as time goes on} ] all seemingly drove to water high? to walk past the chest?

          Would you not conclude then, that those searchers had more than two clues solved? and if so, why couldn’t anyone be able to do the same – but apparently little Indy can’t get to water high by the poem?

          I mean, have you personally been to WWWH, clues in-between, and to Heavy loads and Water High? It doesn’t make sense to me that fenn would have done the same;
          * To answer some questions and save others from being asked, I did follow the clues in the poem when I hid the treasure chest, although I hid it before the poem was complete. (Completed?) f (posted 6/5/2107)

          He had to of known already of Heavy Loads and Water High… why the heck follow the prior clues at all [for him to do “when I hid the treasure chest”].
          To me, that comment says he did all the clues to get to the chest… I can’t see why he would [ travel 25 miles of clues or whatever distances it was ] when he knows where he wanted to be at, to park his car and go to the chest’s location / spot. Especially, if you don’t need to drive those prior clues [some of the clues] as well and just understand the route.

          • Seeker: if all I have is a map of the United States, can I drive to your house? My point is, the Little Indy question is absurd on its face: *all* she has is the poem and a map of the U.S. Rocky Mountains. If that’s all you’ve got (and that’s precisely what the question stated) how in the world are you going to find a 10″ x 10″ x 5″ box? It’s impossible. Poor Indy is lucky she can use that crappy map to figure out the first two clues!

          • Seeker, suppose WWH is clue 1 and canyon down is clue 2. Now suppose HOB is something like brown trout. That wouldn’t be on a map and The little girl couldn’t figure that out because that is not something on a map. (I agree with Zap as well about the detail if the map too.). Now, assume that after people drove the canyon down and then parked. If HOB, no place for the meek, and the end is ever drawing nigh is close in proximity, then searchers could have not understood the clues, and missed the nigh (left hand turn to go up the draw) and walked past the chest because they went straight. That is the scenario that could have happened in my solution. I hope that helps.

          • Sorry for the poor editing . Should be detail OF the map, not detail IF the map. Also, the next sentence should be – Now, assume that after people drove the canyon down, they parked.

          • Zap, JBL,

            Yep, the question was not a great one. However, in both your scenarios, neither mention the comment… All the information to find the chest is in the poem. Good map, bad question, more maps aside… the first two clues are seemingly found. Then we have the Q&A; clues at home, “All of them, in theory… but not in practice [ meaning observe ]

            So if the clues can be understood in any manner at home / prior… why is it we “can not get closer” than the first two clues? Even if, as JBL used as an example… something not on a map… we should still be able to understand how to proceed to another clue and another clue because that information should be within the poem and not so much on a map. [unless all the remaining clues are not found on a map at all ]

            I could argue the point that GE could be utilized at this point or in the very near future a new mapping device, and new service areas. So that kinda kill the bad or wrong map theory. And the wrong turn theory is week because we should know, again, prior we need to turn [ if the searcher did not, that is a mistake, not lack of deciphering beforehand.]

            So, what is not on the map, should be in the poem and decipherable. The old argument was; we needed to be on site because all the information to find the chest from the poem didn’t include back ground information of the challenge.
            But now we have all the clues decipherable at home. So little Indy’s answer was “can not get closer” than the first two clues. That in my mind say; she or anyone else is where they need to be. But we need to use the remaining clues to get to an exact 10″ sq spot… at the spot/location of the first two clues.

            The other possibility might be hoB itself. The first two clues plop you at hoB, but we need to know that and what it is or otherwise we leave to look some place else. This is where JBL thought might come into play… te poem only states “put in below the hoB” Maybe, just Maybe, the first two clues are what home of Brown actually is… hoB not on a map per se and not answered in the poem per se, but discovered when we figure out clue 1 and / or 2 together.
            If we knew what hoB was we would go right to the chest comment, line of thinking. Which would mean hoB is no place for the meek the end of hoB is near, no paddle required at hoB, “Just heavy loads and water high at hoB.

            Well, in theory anyways.
            We have been told to utilize GE and/or a good map. Told a map is a map and the more detailed a map the better if you have the ‘right map’… and now we’re old the poem is a map [ no big shock there ] Yet, is that what fenn was referring to as the right map? and the other map[s] are only needed to locate the location?

            This is why I asked; what details do we need from a map or on a map? It seems to me the poem has the details we need… are we to match them to another map, or make our own map from those details, line of thought?

            It is curious that fenn warns us, if we can’t walk several hour ‘to our ‘solve'” twice, don’t go. And not so much walk through our ‘solves process.’ clue by clue.
            A solve is complete, to find an answer, decipher etc. I’m pretty sure fenn knows that meaning.

            When folks told fenn where they were and explained their process… he knew they deciphered the first two clues… he also knew they went by, walked past the remaining clues and the chest….
            How close is, “can not get closer than the first two clues”??? to the chest.

            Thanks for the comeback guys… ya got me thinking again.

          • I found a different map online that gives different details about my search area. (Ialso use google maps and a topographic map.) That is my “and/or a good map.” It actually identifies my blaze. That map is no longer online, so I am very glad I saved it on my computer.

            As far as HOB being brown trout, that would be based on the comment by f (paraphrase) extensive knowledge of geography.

            For me everything is in the poem. The most obvious meanings of the words fit my solution AND alternative meanings give specific details about my solution. So, to be clear, everything I said is just my opinion.

          • JBL
            Everything anyone says are all opinions. I do understand the thought that, ‘meanings of the words fit my solution AND alternative meanings give specific details about my solution.’
            Such as nigh to mean near or left and both can be usable… I’ll add in my thoughts… usable at different steps in the poem.

            Example; nigh is near the ‘end’ of ‘creek’ which could be where a turn left bring us into a narrow passage, line of thinking.
            Think an opening between to walls of rock, as the creek version of narrow passage, that drains from the land above during a rain and flows into an actual creek running by.
            So the end would mean that point of the narrow passage and mean, on the left side or west side of the running creek. As well as end could refer to a boundary line of two counties in that particular location.

            No paddle up your creek means… that narrow dry passage leads to heavy loads and water high or the source of the main water that drains [drawing from] as an overflow of that water high.

            All relatively different geographical and their own place on a map… but joined, working as one, contiguous in nature.

          • Golf or Bowling or Baseball.. put in below the home of Charlie Brown. Forrest always ‘wished he could have lived to do to the things he was a tribute to!’ Well he’s done everything! But he admired his father for his education and athleticism! Think about it ya’ll. Whatya think? That’s my theory. My other one is the 5x10x10 chest is just a reference to following your heart

          • Hi Seeker,

            “Yep, the question was not a great one. However, in both your scenarios, neither mention the comment… All the information to find the chest is in the poem. Good map, bad question, more maps aside… the first two clues are seemingly found.”

            I would agree that you don’t need a highly detailed map to solve the first two clues. A map of the Rockies should suffice (or a comprehensive knowledge of geography.) For my solution, the foldout map in the back of TFTW is not quite detailed enough.

            “Then we have the Q&A; clues at home, ‘All of them, in theory… but not in practice [ meaning observe ]”

            Suppose Forrest had only said “All of them, in theory” and ended right there. How would you interpret that? Couldn’t he be telling us that all the clues actually can be solved without ever leaving home? If that’s the case, then the added clause “but not in practice” is kind of a no-brainer to me: you may ~think~ you’ve correctly solved all the clues, but how can you know this for sure unless you physically go there and recover the chest using your solution?

            “So if the clues can be understood in any manner at home / prior… why is it we “can not get closer” than the first two clues?”

            I’ll reiterate: you can’t solve anything past the first two clues without a proper map. A “map of the Rockies” is not a proper map, so if that’s all you’ve got, you’re done.

            “Even if, as JBL used as an example… something not on a map… we should still be able to understand how to proceed to another clue and another clue because that information should be within the poem and not so much on a map.”

            Not if you don’t have a good enough map to find the answers to the clues. In my opinion, the answer to EVERY clue is found on the map, not just the first two. So unless you have a truly comprehensive knowledge of geography, if you don’t have an excellent map, you are sunk.

            “I could argue the point that GE could be utilized at this point …”

            NO! You can’t just change the conditions of Jenny’s question and then expect Forrest’s answer to remain the same. Poor Little Indy has gotten a lot of mileage, but in the end that question and answer is not going to help you one wit.

            I know you are resistant to the idea that places are being poetically or even cryptically described in the poem and that the answers to those riddles are to be found on maps, but that’s exactly what Forrest explained in Scrapbook 73 over three years ago: “I would like to reiterate: Please go back to the poem and look at maps for your answers.”

          • Zap…Your last paragraph is how I see things…based on SB73. Back to the Poem…and maps for the answers. It makes sense after determining first clue for me.
            In my theory, the first two clues puts me @ HOB. Things do get tricky there and I can see many reasons at that point why others walked right past the remaining 7. Most clever riddles don’t fully evolve until the very end.
            Another scenario for Little Indy/2 clues may refer to boundaries that may not be on a map of the Rockies requiring one to map out another route…searcher would not know until on site or further research with “Good”/better map.

          • Zap ~
            “I could argue the point that GE could be utilized at this point …”

            NO! You can’t just change the conditions of Jenny’s question and then expect Forrest’s answer to remain the same. Poor Little Indy has gotten a lot of mileage, but in the end that question and answer is not going to help you one wit.
            ————————————————
            I didn’t change the condition of the question. My comment was not directly involving that question… We have known long prior to this question fenn’s comment of GE “and/or” a good map. If we are seriously going to consider the after the fact comments as helpful, useful, or important to any degree…. the And/Or involves one or the other or both in use.
            fenn’s own thoughts were of “down the road” thousands of years… Technology, that we are told to utilize as helpful, changes daily. I would think a military pilot would have excellent knowledge of that fact … So, If you read my comment in full, you’ll see the point I was making… which was not about the Q&A of little Indy, But why nobody seemingly can not get closer ~ no matter what map you use.

            The comment [ in part ]
            “So if the clues can be understood in any manner at home / prior… why is it we “can not get closer” than the first two clues? Even if, as JBL used as an example… something not on a map… we should still be able to understand how to proceed to another clue and another clue because that information should be within the poem, and not so much on a map. [unless all the remaining clues are not found on a map at all ]”

            No matter what is on a map we should be able to follow the clues from the poem itself… especially if decipherable prior to searching. Because, fenn has now stated the obvious as fact… the poem is a map.

            The Use of GE in any manner is just like any other ~ types of maps… however, the satellite imaging evolves [ mainly by software, and later repairs and new advancements ] all the time.
            What might not be available today, might tomorrow or 100 years from now could be great.

            A map is a map, the more detailed the map the better if you have the “right map”… What is the right map? what has changed since 2009 -10?
            what will be available in 3009?
            Do we need to care?
            Was it even a concern to fenn?

            I’m not concerned about “The Map, type” or even GE, capabilities … I’m concerned / interested about what “details.”

            I could argue wwwh is a single mud puddle, or the continental divide’s watershed, or even wwwh might not mean any waters are even there [on location]… It’s all about perception of how we read the interpretations of the clues [poem].

            So if you only see the poem from one headlight shining on it… how are you sure which “proper map” we all need to solve this challenge???
            Where are you getting that information of “the proper map”… don’t tell of what map your talking about… but where is the information that tells us about this magical map we all need?

            I wonder if, as fenn followed the clues in the poem that has “all the information to find the treasure chest” If he used a map at all, after arriving at clue # 1.

            I have to “reiterate” myself… when we talk about after the fact comments… we need to consider all of them as how they help as a whole… just like understanding the poem as a whole.

            Can not get closer, is not the same as, can not go on.
            SOOO do we even need a map after we located the correct 1st clue, OR was that “right map and details” provided from the start of this challenge. Dang, folks say I complicate things… lol.

          • Seeker: “I didn’t change the condition of the question. My comment was not directly involving that question…”

            Okay, but you were focused on the “cannot get closer than the first two clues” comment, and THAT quote comes directly from Forrest’s answer to the Indy question, so I assumed that’s what we were discussing. So is it your opinion that no one has been physically closer to the chest than what is required to solve the first two clues? If so, then wouldn’t that require the chest to be within 200 feet of the first two clues?

            Isn’t it more likely that the people who solved WWWH just continued on their journey, eventually (and perhaps unavoidably) coming within 500 feet of the treasure chest at closest approach, but because they failed to solve the next clue they went right on by? It’s not a failure of the map (whether it be a USGS topo map, or Google Earth, or some new-fangled holographic map 50 years down the road) — it is a failure of the searcher to unravel the correct connection between the poem and whatever map he/she is using. But to directly answer your question:

            “why is it we “can not get closer” than the first two clues?”

            I say you can, and perhaps hundreds have over the last 7 years. When has Forrest ever said that no one has been closer than the first two clues? Keep in mind the distinction between being physically closer to the chest and closer to solving the 3rd, 4th, 5th, etc. clues. It’s not necessarily true that solving the 3rd clue or beyond is a requirement for moving closer to the chest.

            “No matter what is on a map we should be able to follow the clues from the poem itself… especially if decipherable prior to searching. Because, fenn has now stated the obvious as fact… the poem is a map.”

            Yes, we ~should~ be able to, assuming we can recognize the clues in the poem. But I think this is where everyone is failing: they don’t have all the right clues. In fact, most searchers don’t have ANY of the clues right. This is why Forrest can be somewhat flippant in saying things like “a map is a map” because frankly the map isn’t what’s preventing people from finding Indulgence. The answers are there; people are simply solving the wrong questions.

            “So if you only see the poem from one headlight shining on it… how are you sure which “proper map” we all need to solve this challenge???”

            I wouldn’t say there is only one map that will work. For instance, GE will work fine. Why not just take Forrest at his word that the exact map choice is not critical, recognizing that it does need to cover the right area with enough detail to show the answers to the poem’s clues. A paper map of the U.S. is not going to help; neither will a detailed map of Yellowstone if the treasure is near Taos.

            “I wonder if, as fenn followed the clues in the poem that has “all the information to find the treasure chest” If he used a map at all, after arriving at clue # 1.”

            IMO, Forrest wouldn’t need a map, any more than you would need a map to get from your house to work. I’m betting Forrest has a “comprehensive knowledge of geography” for the entire area encompassed by the clues.

    • Well said. Where in Texas are you? I really like the “group-think loop” you described. So True.

      • “Where in Texas are you? I really like the “group-think loop” you described. So True.”
        —————————————————–
        … southwest Texas.

        On groupthink, my intention was not to be dismissive of anyone’s solution. But when so many searchers seem to congregate at one general location, and that can apply to the Taos/Cimarron/Angel Fire area as well, then I question the extent to which said searchers even know about obscure locations in the Rockys.

        There are literally hundreds of locations in the Rockys that I have never seen mentioned in this blog. Do searchers even know these places exist? Hence, a reminder of the importance of a knowledge of geography.

        Ken (in Texas)

  77. More fodder for the blender…
    Fenn’s many statements have added some insight…and yet it could be said that the more he adds, the more difficult things will be. Every time he peeps…the flood gates open to how to interpret what he said. Stir stir stir and mud happens.
    First there’s no riddles…then just recently…the poem is a riddle. The list of opposing elements to the Chase is quite elaborate at this point and things look like there may be more to come.
    Some say they are happy to just get out and test the waters and give their theory a try or two. Others say…beware the pitfalls of moving without purpose, and question everything. These opposing ideals are what makes the world go around and will exist still when we are dust blowing about the landscape.
    For me…The Thrill is just having a great challenge such as what Fenn has offered up for all of us to do with it what we want. Not every participant is going to do this in the same way, nor are they going to think about it in the same fashion. I think this holds true to how and why folks participate on the blogs. Some want it their way…and others want it theirs. And still yet…some want something that will just never be.
    There are no stupid questions…as most of us have been told from our school days. There are no stupid ideas…one never knows what might come from a fleeting thought. This Chase has brought a lot of really unique individuals out from many corners/walks of life into the mystical/challenging realm of their very own Treasure Hunt…to make of it what they can or want. I am happy to be a part of it and I know that I will do so until this dang thing is completed…or I am no longer alive. Rock on searchers ! And when the line at the grocery is at a standstill…just think about that First Clue…and how it is the most important one.

    • Ken – in all of the variety of thought processes, philosophies, and opinions – still no searcher has the chest in their possession.

      “Rock on Searchers” indeed, rock on…..

    • Ken,
      I might be being semantic here, but… fenn said riddles would not help in getting us closer to the chest, Then stated, a riddle within the poem. [ if I’m not mistaken ] Does that mean the poem is a riddle, or within the poem there is one? [ which I would think be the question presented in the poem ]
      As far as there are no stupid question and no stupid ideas, that’s great theology… but is it not the premise of those two statements to learn from our questions and ideas and not just use them as an excuse to be lazy and not figure out the answer to those question and ideas?

      So is it possible [ maybe even that important possibility we have been told no one has mentioned ] That we need to solve the riddle to understand the poem? Who know? but if we don’t follow up on that question and analyze the possibility… we might has well just say.. oh! that line is just a filler, all we need it 9 previous line to solve the poem.

      So, if we ask ourselves what “not far but to far to walk’ might refer to… could it be involving that that stanza with the question?
      Example of thought; Fenn was to go and die at this location… ruined the story by recovering… still wanted to present the original challenge anyways…
      Could to far to walk refer to fenn’s ” at almost eighty ” is was time to act? Act out the final stages of hiding the chest before he was [ at almost eighty ] unable to do so?

      Poetically saying; the journey is not far, but soon it will be too far to walk ~ to die. So why is it I must go and leave my trove to seek… I’ve done it tired and now I’m weak ~ don’t go where an 80 yr old man carrying a heavy backpack can’t go, “Twice” That refers to an action of returning from the hide. While the original thought was to make a one way trip.

      If we don’t attempt to solve those question and ideas while we analyze the snots out of the poem… we might fall into a linear mode of thinking only, and leave the avenue of how the clues have been presented [ in poem form ] to the reader, out of the thought process.

      The poem is told to be straightforwards, but it’s still a poem, for interpretation and analyzing.
      Does “difficult, but not impossible” only refer to the journey? The clues? or does it refer to the challenge of ‘understanding how’ the poem relays the information contained within? ~ all the information to find the chest is in the poem. But that doesn’t truly say all the knowledge we need to know about the poem is within the poem itself.

      So do we need to answer or understand the answers to the question [ possibly a riddle ] in the poem, to properly understand how to solve the poem???

      Yep, there are no stupid questions… just the stupidity for not attempting to find the answers to those questions.
      Ignorance is lack of knowledge…
      Stupidity is not looking that knowledge, and when it is found, not using it.
      Imagination helps with the path of asking the question and finding the answers to the questions and ideas.
      Otherwise Neil Armstrong and Buzz Aldrin’s footsteps would never be on the moon.

      It wasn’t easy. but we did it…

      • Seeker…you always ask and present great ideas and questions. That has become your place amongst this haphazard collection of inquisitive folks here. I always applaud that… and trust me when I say this…again…There are no questions asked or pondered that have no meaning/s. Everything has its place in this wacky world we inhabit. There are problem solvers and problem finders in every facet of life…and yes, there are problem makers too. This Poem that has been gifted us….is one that will have chewed up and spat out more willing minds than some will admit before it is all said and done; IF it IS ever done.
        My point here is to say that, yes, each individual should be aware that this is no walk in the park and they should ask themselves every step of the way, what they need to do to be safe, happy, and ready to admit defeat(no correct solve) and to be content in doing so.
        In honesty…I can say that everything you just wrote is the underlying testament to probably why Fenn has implied that this will not be done on spring vacay, or on a Sunday picnic.
        Here’s another snippet…The Little Indie/2 clues syndrome…It COULD be possible that Fenn’s 2 clues answer is telling us that anyone can get the first 2 clues…then show up to the “place” in your vehicle(unless you are on the Starship Enterprise) and walk out the remaining 7 depicted in the remainder of the Poem.
        Before I go off to put the ribs and such on the grill…
        I’m perfectly content asking myself all of those questions you speak of…and then …putting them to the test….in the Lab…so to speak. And no matter where the riddle is…it’s still a riddle.

        • Wait! What?! Did you say RIBS? Throw my corn on the cob, husk and all on the grill to.. hope you’re doing grilled bake potatoes too… I’ll be right over. Just gonna make a quick stop for a case of beer. If you want something to drink, I’ll pick that up as well.

          • Yep ! I grill for the week ! All of the above and I don’t forget the sink either. I like muddy water….to drink.

        • kEN;

          Just remember that every riddle that I have ever read started with a question. Is that a hint? JDA

          • some riddles… JDA…do not even present themselves for years…yes, there is always that question.ken

        • You bring up a good point Ken. First two clues easy, the rest need to be walked out. We all begin from our own homes, could he be talking about that? I don’t think so, but would put the importance of the first clue in perspective. We could take that many different ways. I’m in the boat you drive to the first two clues and walk the next seven, along with the key. Makes it easy to see how some would go right past the other seven. His statement though, there are many WWWH in the Rockies, ever so obvious, could just be peoples homes. After all the problems and sorrows of life, swallow that and head out.
          I’m not a firm believer in that, but again, a possibility. He does say to stay home if you haven’t figured out the first clue, maybe that’s where we start. It’s the other seven clues that are the chase. If it is not possible to solve all the “clues” with the poem, then little Indi would have a tough time figuring out the third clue. She could solve the poem, but not know the clues until she followed her path. That’s why she can’t solve the third clue, it’s not solvable from home. If that is the case, to leave with confidence would have to give you an exact spot that one could reverse engineer to see their path. Pretty much all feasible. First two clues could be a fly, drive, bike, to thing, the last seven, well, those may be the chase.
          If we can’t solve all the clues from home, how do we leave with confidence?
          I find it hard to see anyone fully knowing what the third clue could be. We can guess all we want, but truly know from home? How, when we don’t even know what f considers a clue.? If the clues get easier, what is it with the first two? If they are the easy one’s to solve, then what? I’ll say it again, it was the worst thing that f said to us as searchers. That there are 9 clues. Great for him, he gets the effect he wanted, but for us, total confusion.

          • Charlie,
            The sentences prior to the poem in the book is obviously important. Is it just as simple as saying; here’s a poem and you need to figure out the clues within?
            fenn didn’t want the challenge to be easy, so maybe he embellished the full poem as 9 contained sentences and let our own wild-tangents take us down the rabbit holes.
            Hence the now seven year debate 9 lines vs. 9 sentences.

            In either case, what it does is, make almost all who reads the poem to start looking for 9 “places” Maybe we should ask what the 9 clues are and ask, are they all a “place”

            we have been chatting about Not far, but to far too walk. Should it be a clue, is it a place? We read the poem as begin wwwh and take in the canyon down… how many places are there? one? two?
            Could stanza 3 be four places or just one? I could argue that no place for the meek is heavy loads and water high and that single place if after hoB.

            Just for fun. stanza 2 contains two place WWWH-canyon down, and hoB. Stanza 3 is one place… now where at stanza 4 [ and most like to think the blaze is the end of all this…so ] we have a fourth place, the blaze. Great, right? How many clues do we have???

            Is it fair to say we, for the most part, we don’t know how may places are involved, so we force fit 9 places to clear our minds of confusion? And, by doing so we might create our own demised into solving “all of the information in the poems”…

            How many clues existed when fenn was a kid? Most of the places did…

            What a clue refers to may not be a “place’ at all… but there still could be 9 very important pieces of information considered as clues.

            And the debate continues… 9 lines, 9 sentences, 9 important pieces of information including places… lol

          • That is a great question to ask. I personally believe that the clues are not all places but it would be helpful to know for sure.

            What is the best way to ask ff a question anyway? Email Jenny? Forrest?

          • yup Seeker, I totally agree. It’s kind of like we as searchers being hardest on ourselves. Forrest had to have gone over this poem with critical eyes. He knew what would happen if he stated that comment. People are going to look for places. How could we solve for places when a lot of maps don’t have the names of all the places? What if a place is under a different name to the locals? Example, if a mountain has one name and the locals just call it, say, Rainbow mountain. If our clue solve had a rainbow mountain but all maps called the place something else, would that be giving the locals an unfair advantage? Which he says he didn’t do. I mean, you think about it, everything can be considered a place. One step over and you are in a different place.
            I have to think that the best way to solve this puzzle is to just forget the notion of 9 clues, and just solve the poem, and see what I get.
            To think clues 10,11,12,13 are actually clues, (see his website), lol, those aren’t clues. Really? I thought the clues are suppose to help find the treasure? Knowing it’s not in Idaho doesn’t help find the chest. May help narrow down, but not help find. Don’t we need to solve clues? Have an answer for them? Can’t for those clues. Hints help with the clues, isn’t that what those “clues” are, hints? And now back to that argument.
            I think we just need to not think about the clues. They will show themselves to the right solve. For someone to say they solved a clue, how could you know? Saying it’s not in New Mexico because the poem said that to you, is that really a clue? Just narrows down but yet, f would think that is a clue, right?
            I think a lot of things he has said need to be answered. Why is a butterfly a flutterby? Why tell us how many coins in the chest when in the book he didn’t? Why is the place dear to him? End of the rainbow? The joker? Draw a tangent? “X” on a map?, and on and on and on. Since we need to solve for these things, wouldn’t that make them all clues?
            You are totally right in my opinion, we need to ask the right questions, and only through these discussions will we do that. There is no way one single person solves this poem. To many variables. All I know is this…..It’s NOT underwater.:) We have long distances to WALK…

  78. I’m lost I thought he said don’t mess with his poem ? But now I’m seeing people finding numbers in words other words in words. Words that sound like other words . I’m lost

    • Hey Steve…Fenn even has a couple of pieces of advice for these types of things. …if you don’t know where it is, go back to the first clue. Or….if you don’t know where you’re going, any trail will take you there. Sounds like a big messy circle…have some fun !!!

    • Same as it ever was, Steve.

      I think it’s the temptation of the idea that the poem is so startlingly brilliant, that an equally brilliant unexpected sleight of hand will release a sudden shower of gold with a flip of the wrist. The temptation of finding the hidden door in the wall, the Secret Shortcut.

      I don’t know about the rest of y’awl, but I’ve certainly tried more than once to unlock it like a puzzle box, presto-chango. I self-diagnose it as Open Sesame Syndrome, and I go do something else for a few weeks.

      It may even be that it really IS built that way . . .

      JAK3

      • This particular “fly” was tied by someone who knew all along what he was gonna catch…and they ain’t trout.

    • don’t mess with the poem Steve, but do follow the instructions. Messing with the poem first may cause you to miss the intended instructions. Your job is to figure out what the instructions are and make sense of them.
      Like the word hint. Do you just see the word “hint”, or do you see the word “in” as an instruction? As “h” in “t”. Riches new and old could be tree. The “h” after the “t” makes it “three”. Just an example, may just be hint, but you catch the idea. There are a lot of different ways to attack this puzzle, hope you find your niche…

  79. I don’t have my nook with me… Does anyone remember what year Forrest was fired?

    • Spallies, I’m not sure what year or hold old Mr. Fenn was when he worked at The Totem Café. My guess is that he may have been thirteen, which would have been around 1943 or 1944, depending upon which month it happened.

        • You’re correct, Jake. First, Paper Boy, then as a dishwasher at The Totem Café. Do you know how old he was? I know the next chapter talks about Skippy being fourteen when he built the “flying machine,” which would make Mr. Fenn around twelve. I just don’t know if the chapters are in order to his age. Have any guess?

          • Can’t help you there on his age when he got canned.
            My books are still sitting near the Gallatin soaking in the Karma.

            Nice catch on “Mildew”.
            I wonder why the hat?
            “Maybe the bob wire hatband had something to do with it. In any case, I’m not going to ever wear the hat.”

            Not going to ever wear the hat again…..
            Hmmm

            “I hereby make the assertion that Mildew has more personality than any other hat within word distance of Santa Fe, and I dare anyone to challenge that claim.”

            I’m not eating that hat nor mine.
            https://dalneitzel.com/2015/01/21/scrapbook-one-hundred-six/

          • Thank you, Jake. I don’t know why he’s wearing “Mildew,” but I giggle each time I think about it. Perhaps he’s suggesting we should review the scrapbook, as well as, the story about grape soda and Fritos. Or, it’s just to make us go crazy thinking he’s trying to “hint” as something. 🙂

          • I don’t see the connection to grape soda in this SB except for a comment by a searcher.
            Frito bandito not there either.
            Oh, he’s winking….
            Nevermind, I’m just crazy.

    • Something prompted another look at the following image when you mentioned a possible ‘hint’ involving “mildew” and grape soda. My attention is drawn to the background where The Flyer is sitting; specifically, the stones, hat, soda can, (Grapette?) I think that San Larozo was simply used as a setting.

      Notice the position of his arm that’s resting on the larger stone? Could be mistaken, but isn’t that a ‘crevice’ and some type of a ‘pole’? Looks as if there’s a shadow in between, and possibly even more to see:

      http://www.oldsantafetradingco.com/assets/home-feature-images/SanLazFF-home.jpg

      • Thank you for the link, SL. You’ve pointed out some things that I’ve mistaken for something else. I’m not sure what kind of soda Mr. Fenn is drinking. I don’t think it matches the brand of Grapette, but certainly could be wrong. When I enlarged the photo, there was something I had missed the other times I’ve done so. Do you see anything above his hat on the rock?

      • Sure enjoyed looking at the PIC of Forrest. The Hand laid Rock Wall is beautiful. I also like the “Guardian Warrior” stone that he has his hand resting on. Sorry,
        my imagination goes overboard. JDA

        • SL, Wow, don’t know what to say about that except how could I not like your imagination. Then again I guess we all wear a halo if we let our hearts dictate our desires. Perhaps knowing its there is more important than having to see it. You guys have a great and thanks for starting mine off with a smile:)

  80. here is my take on the poem and my opinion – there are 4 places that we are looking for 1 – wwwh -2 – hob- 3 the blaze -4 in the wood – and these are places you can find on GE- one is man made structure the other 3 are made by nature I call land formations – north of or at the end of in the wood imo is where you will find the tc

  81. I hope one of the gold coins fenn put in there was a 1933 double eagle. Lol.

    • That’s funny you mention that coin. I believe Forrest purchased the one known in existence at auction in the early 2000’s specifically to put in the chest. Google that auction – it sold to an anonymous, but “enthusiastic collector” for 7 million dollars. I also think this is exactly how Forrest will know when the treasure is discovered – once the coin goes up for auction again. There is little reason for someone to hold onto a coin of that worth, and the private market wouldn’t yield same same price (even tax-free). Would be pretty clever right?

      • If that’s the case bro that chest more valuable then everyone thinks it is. Wonder if there are any key date coins in that chest.

      • I think some rich dude in Egypt got that coin for like 7.5 million. But I’m not sure.

      • The 1933 double eagle that sold for $7.59mm is sitting in the Federal Reserve Bank in New York City. The owner has entrusted it to the Federal Governments’ care and the owner has remained anonymous.

        There are a few others (9 as I recall) floating around out there that would be confiscated by the Federal Government if they ever came to light. Then there are 10 others that I think a New York jewelry family recently won the right to keep – their father had obtained them back in 1933 and the family found them in a bank lock box sometime ago.

        It’s some interesting history.

        It would be interesting if f is the owner of the 1933 coin and it somehow was included with the find of his treasure chest. But like f has generally stated in the past (not an exact quote) – enough money is better than a lot of money… 7 million may breach the ‘a lot’ of money line.

        • Well you know what they say: “A penny is a fortune to an ant crossing a mud puddle that seems like an ocean.”

          (or something like that….)

        • I was joking about the 1933. But I went to the treasure bold section in the blog under gold coins out of the 265 that are in there he does say some are rare. Might be some good key dates in there.

    • Very interesting read, Trailrunner! Thanks for sharing! It makes you wonder about Forrest being the mysterious buyer, especially in how the article describes that person:

      “…though Sotheby’s David Redden has called the buyer not a coin collector, but rather ‘a fabulous collector who was completely captivated by the story of the coin’.”

      That brief description seems to fit Forrest quite well!

      We can certainly speculate about the “Farouk Example” being included in Fenn’s fabulous treasure (I certainly like the idea!), but even if Forrest WAS the mysterious buyer, and even if he IS generous enough to give away in a treasure hunt, I think one fact would be guaranteed: the coin itself would not be hidden inside the chest, as it is was on public display in London in 2012:

      http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2099031/Rare-Double-Eagle-1933-coin-worth-7-6-MILLION-goes-UK-time.html

      But then again, there is mention of a “TITLE to the gold” in the poem….

  82. Can someone refresh my memory on anything FF has said about Private Land and/or trespassing?

    • From Cleveland, but not really a “team player” lil more solo… :-). That being said, I am heading out west in about a month for 10 days. May be traveling all the way from Cimarron NM to Possibly Glacier NP…

      • Cleveland Cavaliers aren’t team players either and you saw what happened to them last night. Lol. Good luck on your travels.

  83. Seeker wrote: “Again, with many of fenn’s comments; folks have been at the first two clues and walked past the remaining seven clues and the chest. I’m not sure how you can’t take this / those comments literally;”
    ——————————————————————————————
    … because those comments were made verbally.

    Seeker, I think you are taking all of Fenn’s post-poem verbal comments too literally. Don’t hold to the fire every word he says. Verbal comments are inherently inconsistent and imprecise, for all humans.

    What is precise, what is well thought out is his poem. And the poem clearly states: “… but too far to walk”. I don’t mean to put you on the spot. But why do you emphasize something he says verbally, post-poem, but dismiss what he writes in the poem? Over and over he has said, go back to the poem.

    The phrase “but too far to walk” tells me that some of the initial clues are driving clues, not walking clues. Ergo, the area covered by the clues is much bigger than what you seem to believe as a result of your literal interpretation of the “walk past the remaining 7 …” comment.

    The little girl from India could not get past the first two poem clues because the scale of her map was not appropriate for identifying the remaining 7 clues. She needed a more detailed map, easily available to us searchers. With this more detailed map we can then map out most of the clues without ever leaving home, as Fenn states. This would allow us to make a Rocky Mountain trip, with confidence. By adhering to such a small area for your 9 clues, you are putting people who live on the West Coast or the East Coast at a disadvantage. Why would they make a long, expensive trip to the Rockies if they could not go with some degree of confidence that they had solved most of the nine clue from home?

    As searcher approaches the chest’s map location, BOTG would be needed to convert the final clues to the ground cover seen.

    All of these discussions pertain to geographic scale, or rather the size of the area covered by the clues. In my opinion, the start location is the first clue which anyone can determine with an overview map of the Rockies. As the searcher zeroes in on that start location, the area gets smaller, the detail gets bigger. This is how a pilot would view the clues. The poem is a map that functions as a funnel to continually narrow down the chest’s proximal location by means of the nine clues.

    My suggestion would be to ignore inconsistent verbal comments Fenn has made, and focus entirely on what he writes in the poem. In my opinion, one of the great flaws in this hunt is that searchers take his post-poem verbal comments too literally.

    Ken (in Texas) 🙂

    • TX Ken: remarkably, I agree on nearly everything in your most recent post to Seeker. In particular, I don’t know whether to say I’m mystified or impressed by the ease with which people of seemingly endless temporal and financial means “proceed with confidence” to mutually exclusive locations scattered across multiple states. Maybe I need to look up “confidence” in the dictionary?

      • Yup Zaphod.. it’s called confirmation bias and nobody is immune. Intelligence is irrelevant, only experience tends to temper it. Although one could argue that experience may also create a certain narrow vision devoid of creativity.

        I suppose we should focus on creativity as an end goal.

    • I KNEW IT!!!!! WWWH is a dam which means the chest is in Utah, below 5000 feet, under an outhouse, in a cemetery.

      Fire up the truck!!!

    • I get what it is your saying .. we have the poem’s wording.

      But I also think that breaking down a stanza or sentence or even part of a line forces a possible wrong conclusion. Not unlike what you wrote; “The little girl from India could not get past the first two…”
      There is a big difference between not “getting past” something, and “can not get closer to” something. The agenda here is to get closer to the chest. I mean, we have fenn saying it’s possible in theory to figure out all the clues at home… but not practical to “find” the chest. That’s not rocket science, it’s common sense to have to go where the clues are to “find” the chest. But what we’re talking about are clues, not the chest.
      Why can’t Little Indy, and apparently others, “can not get closer” if we can figure out all the clues at home? Maybe there’s a reason.

      This infatuation with maps and size and color and topo and roads and historical sight… doesn’t answer why we can figure out the clues from home { and some have deciphered the first two clues on site } and didn’t understand the significance of the deciphering or ‘why’ the clue’s reference.
      So the line “Not far, but too far to walk”
      When read with the prior lines in the same sentence, in the same stanza~ talks about warm waters. It is possible that “not far” refers to the travels of the waters… and “too far to walk” refers to the same… a very long distance the waters travel? Maybe that’s a clue to the correct wwwh out of the many in the RM’s… the longest river within the search area? No need to know what state or need to find an answer to a state.
      Maybe We begin where warm waters halt… or.. the actual start, source of, said waters? Then the waters take it in the canyon down. While we stay at the source ~ of hoB. From there { the source of the waters and the hoB} is no place for the meek, the end is every[always] drawing [ the end or source, drains from this location ] No paddle up your creek [ refers to up to the source or opposite the flow of the waters } just heavy loads and water high < WWWH…

      Could it be that all the references to all the places, features, locations of the clues refer to "need to know where to start" "can't find the chest go back to the first clue" "need to nail down the first clue" If you don't have the first clue, stay home"…
      "Can Not Get Closer to the Chest" than the first two clues???

      Linear way of thinking only [ must stomp out all the clues or in this case drive them ] forces a linear only type of solve… no imagination, no observing what is around you. very little thinking and analyzing, and lead more to unnecessary hours and hours of researching.

      The hypothetical above, is very plausible to a solve and answers questions such as; why can't little Indy get closer to the chest from the first two clues? Why is the first clue so important to nail down? Why is it, if you know hoB why would you be concerned about wwwh? They just might be one in the same, or at the very, least the very same location… not separate clues ~ contiguous clues… told in order within the poem.

      The poem is a map.. the more detailed a map the better… I'm gonna ask the obvious question… What is the best "detailed map" ~If you have the "right map"~ we have available to us from the get go?

      Sorry Ken, you can't just take a word or a line from the "poem" and conclude that it only means linear and literal.

      I don't see anything in the poem that says we must travel the clues reference… it does say "IF you've been wise and found the blaze… found meaning prior from home, line of thinking, in theory, then go to your solve and retrieve the chest.

      I look at this slightly different then most do.
      Straightforward; Honest
      Follow; understanding
      lead; show

      The second you add that we must physically track all the points of the clues… you lose any other possible solution of interpretation. Fenn's agenda was to get folks out and into the wilds of nature… the poem has done a great job so far. The "challenge" is to find a 10" sq piece of land "precisely" by understanding how to read the poem's clues. If it is a linear method, great… I have looked into those as well. BUT WhatIF it's not.

      Those after the fact comments fenn gives out might just be the check and balance we need… so we don't get stuck in the mud. As you said prior… you don't need to drive out your clues, just get to the point you need to walk.
      Isn't that what I just did?
      Only I was thinking about, how all the clues can be much much closer together and why no one "can not get closer" than the first two clues… even why those who have been at the first two clues "walked past" the other seven and the chest.

      With all that crap said; I want you to honestly think of this;
      fenn has stated several and many and more have deciphered the first two clues… in your theory… all of those who went by, walked past, anything, had to have been driving their clues, because, they were at the first two… I would really like to know how many searcher use a vehicle for their solves, point to point, place to place, location to location Or even the funnel method.?

      I'm really trying hard to fit a solve by vehicle… but it doesn't connect to fenn's after the fact comments at all. I have to listen to the guy who started it all.

      Oh! as far as an advantage or disadvantage goes… If fenn hid the chest in Maine, would the rest of the states be at any more disadvantage as some are now. If Canada wasn't booted, would 90% of the USA be at any different advantage as we are now? Heck, I don't even have a passport. I'd be really screwed… lol.

      PS, sorry for the novel [ posting ].

      • Seeker (and others),
        Good reasoning!
        The only suggestion that I could make would be to read TTOTC again, looking for hints that will help a searcher to follow the clues. (And yes, that is also exactly what we are doing.)
        Safe searching, everyone!
        Geoff
        “Have flashlight, will travel”

      • Seeker wrote: “It is possible that “not far” refers to the travels of the waters… and “too far to walk” refers to the same… a very long distance the waters travel?”
        —————————————————-
        How can that be? Waters don’t “walk”; they flow. Same applies to fish. Fish don’t “walk”; they swim.

        It’s us humans that “walk”.

        Don’t know how you can rationalize “too far to walk” referring to anything other than humans, i.e. searchers.

        Ken (in Texas)

      • Seeker, let me add one further comment. That stanza starts off with “Begin”; there is an implied “You” prior, so that line reads: “YOU [as searcher] begin it where warm …”

        Then, “YOU take it in the canyon …”
        The next line must therefore necessarily continue the 2nd person “you”, as in: ” YOU take it in the canyon down, not far, but too far [for YOU] to WALK . That entire stanza is talking about us, as searchers. It has nothing to do with water or fish or mountains or rivers or animals.

        Thus when he writes, “not far, but too far to walk” , he’s talking about us searchers. And therefore, since something is too far to walk, we … drive that distance.

        Ken (in Texas) 🙂

        • That’s just one way of thinking about what begin means.
          Sure, the challenge was meant for a person to go out and find a chest. That does not automatically say that the poem is instructing the searcher to physically travel all clues.
          If the clues can be deciphered prior to a search [ All of them, in theory, but not in practice… ]
          Then it is possible we are to simply understand that the mention of warm waters and take it in the canyon down, are where the first clues “begin” but not necessarily meant for searchers to go into that canyon.

          If I tell you begin where a waterfall halt in a directional flow horizontally and take it in the canyon down in a vertical flow, not far but too far to walk…”
          Is it likely that the flow of of the waters is not far in an elevation factor [ lets say 100′ ], but too far to walk that same route of the falls for obvious reasons. The distance of the drop is being told that it’s not far as in measurement, but too far as unable to walk straight or same route as the water flows….

          The challenge is not about the literal as much as understanding a “poem’s” version / interpretation of what is being described. Hence the need to decipher the “poetic” understanding of what is being told.

          Honestly it can be your theory or mine.. but yours [If following the clues literally and in motion] forces the use of another transportation [car]… where my theory explains the waters movements down the canyon. Gives an explanation of what warm waters halt might mean, and adds the thought that not far, but too far to walk could imply we stay where we are, at the top of the falls.
          Then we have a single stand alone sentences that states; put in below home of Brown… it is quite possible that hoB is above or at the top of the falls and the “put in” still refers to where the waterfall put in [ drops down ] into the canyon from hoB.

          So instead of attempting to go down a canyon, with a heavy backpack~ twice or hop back into a vehicle and drive around nature, Why can’t hoB be where we need to be…. where warm waters begin to take it down a canyon?

          “from there…hoB… it’s no place for the meek… The end is near… no need to paddle or travel the waters flow, just be at heavy loads and water high…at the top of the falls, and not in the canyon, or drive away from where it is we are told to Begin.
          Told to begin it where all those clues refer to. In theory.

          All my theory says is you begin at said falls where you are at or near hoB, and possibly the remaining seven clues that everyone who has been there, has walked past the other clues …and/or … the chest.

          If that is at all a plausible theory… Does it explain fenn’s comments about searchers “walking past,” “went by,” the deciphered first two clues but didn’t understand the significance of where they were…

          fenn knows those searchers didn’t know they had the clues correct… Because, they drove, hop skip and jumped, got in their inflatable raft… and kept going…?

          Would it also explain how searcher who were at the first clues walked past the chest?
          Would it also explain, why seemingly Little Indy or anyone else “can not get closer then first two clues” because all the clues just might be in the very same location as where we are told “begin it where” warm waters halt. and Not so much, begin it ‘AT’ warm waters halt

          This is why I have said in the past; if you’re only thinking that this is a linear method “only”… all you’re doing is hoping you have the right method. if it’s not linear in method / the need to drive or stomp all the clues? then what ya have is a nice vacation… and maybe a new membership of the 500′ club.

          Buy hey, I’ve been known to be wrong a couple of times. I’ll just never admit it.

          • Seeker wrote – “Would it also explain how searcher who were at the first clues walked past the chest? Would it also explain, why seemingly Little Indy or anyone else “can not get closer then first two clues” because all the clues just might be in the very same location as where we are told “begin it . . . ”

            This is exactly where my reading of “the poem/map” went this past winter. You “can’t get closer than the 2nd clue” because you’re pretty much there at that point.

            And maybe also explains how/why no one has given him the clues in the correct order.

            JAK3

          • If the clues are that close together and people were within 200 ft then wouldn’t it stand to reason that you do not have to walk very far at all. He said he did the two trips in one afternoon but he didn’t say it took him all afternoon did he?

            Also, when he said he walked a few miles, was this a few miles total? A few miles one way?

          • This is a problem that can be solved by his after comment. “Not far but too far to walk”, car or water? I think you need to answer his comment about, “if you are WALKING long distances in search for the treasure, you are WALKING ” too far”.
            This totally clears it up. You, the searcher, will be WALKING long distances.
            I can see the point of following water, I don’t think so, but possible. The car, I just don’t see, especially with the two comments. I’m with you Ken on driving the first two clues, very likely, but then it’s long distance walk time. A lot of places out there don’t allow motorized vehicles. To get to that spot and not be able to drive any further would seem likely.
            It’s difficult to not put weight into his “after comments”, when he says something that is in the poem, like “too far” and “walk”, it’s like not having the amount of coins referenced in your solve, that is something that needs to be answered/addressed.
            His after comments could basically be another book, if that was the case, people would think differently for sure. Does everyone think that there are hints that will help with figuring out the clues, or how to interpret them? Of course, but that was an after comment, is the chest at least 8.25 miles North of Santa Fe? Why would you think it is?….

        • Good day, Seeker.

          An analysis in response to a part of your recent post, but also to a common theme you often bring up.

          “This is why I have said in the past; if you’re only thinking that this is a linear method “only”… all you’re doing is hoping you have the right method. if it’s not linear in method / the need to drive or stomp all the clues? then what ya have is a nice vacation… and maybe a new membership of the 500′ club.”

          The common theme running through your posts is that you question whether the poem’s clues are linear. I think I can make a strong argument that we have fresh evidence that they are.

          Originally, we only knew that there were 9 clues in the poem that we had to solve. Then later we were told the clues were contiguous, and on a separate occasion that the clues were consecutive. But did he mean “within the structure of the poem” or literally point-to-point, clue-to-clue out in the field? If he had only said they were contiguous, then there would be a decent argument that the clues might all be describing different aspects or features of a singular place. If the clues in the wild are consecutive, however, then that means that the order is relevant, and perhaps critical. But he never clarified whether he meant consecutive in the poem or consecutive on the spot, so one could still entertain the notion of a holistic solution: all clues describing essentially one location. (However, countering that theory, Forrest has been pretty adamant about the folly of trying to solve “home of Brown” or the blaze prior to figuring out the starting point — pretty damning evidence against all clues being on top of one another.)

          But then we get that intriguing answer from Forrest in the post-movie Q&A:

          Question 4: “Has anyone determined the nine clues and what they represent?”

          Forrest answers (my transcript): “Well, there’s about 250,000 people that think they have. And, uh, I don’t know that anybody has … has … has told me the clues in the right order. I think that part of the problem is they don’t … they don’t focus on the first clue. If you don’t know where the first clue is, you might as well stay home because you’re not … you’re not going to find the treasure chest. You can’t go out looking for the blaze and expect to find the treasure chest. There’s ten billion blazes out there. So you have to start with the first clue and let it take you to the blaze.”

          An honest reading of Forrest’s reply should leave little doubt that the clues describe unique locations, and that you will need to follow them in the correct order. That there even ~is~ a correct order means the clues are linear.

          • Nice post zap, ya brought up some good fenn comments. Although what you didn’t happen to do is show how my hypothetical is not possible.

            Again, and for the most part… wwh is the first clue in the comment, canyon down and not far to walk are involved with the first clue and could be considered the second clue. The hoB is still; in order of the poem; still in consecutive in the poem; still contiguous with the other clues…

            I don’t have a problem with a linear solve… I have a problem that all the solve are linear…. and look how well that as done.
            “uh, I don’t know that anybody has … has … has told me the clues in the right order. I think that part of the problem is they don’t … they don’t focus on the first clue”

            If we don’t understand the first clue, it seems were up that famous creek without a paddle. YET, searcher have told fenn there clues, and process of there solves and were physically at the first two clues. THEN walked past, apparently, everything else.

            Fenn warns us to be able to walk several hours to our solves, That doesn’t indicate walking through all the clues, but sure sound like walking to that location where the close might all be.
            Fenn said he walked less then a few a miles… made two trips… told us he followed the clues to the hide.

            Could it be that he parked as close as he could, walked less then a few miles to the solve and the hide, used the clues to hide the chest, and rinse and repeat for the contents? and went back to his car laughing.

            The linear way of “thinking” doesn’t allow you to think the car is just park as close to the clues as one can get… it makes the car part of the solve or the car location is the start and we walk the clues from that point or very near the first clues and continue to the hide.

            How does my thoughts that the park car has no involvement with the clues and fenn walked to where all the clues might be in a small location not plausible?

            If you want a comment [ quote ] that might debunk my hypothetical ~ the one I would use is, your destination is small but the area is huge. Then we can debate what size is it all…
            I mean a mountain is small compared to a range, a tree is small compared to a forest, a mud puddle is small but not to an ant… are we comparing the “clue’s area” to our scale only? maybe we need to think about what scale fenn would compare it to… Not unlike the 66,000 link comment which are small, but cover an 8.25 mile length. Do we compare a 10″ sq spot to the location’s size?

            Let that sink in for a minute.

          • As far as the car being involved it is only because he stated that he walked a few miles and made two trips. I don’t know that you can use the poem to identify where exactly to park. I just like to look at it as you said, follow the clues and park at the closest spot you can to where you think you need to walk.

            The fact that people have managed to get the first few clues yet nobody has got the first clue is a little confusing. Was his comments about the first clue previous to the first few clues comments?

          • Seeker wrote: “Again, and for the most part… wwh is the first clue in the comment, canyon down and not far to walk are involved with the first clue and could be considered the second clue.”

            We’re already in disagreement, but that’s okay since it’s impossible to prove who is right w/o the chest. It could be a case of semantics, too. I maintain that WWWH is impossible to solve without extra information (earlier in the poem). The question is whether Forrest considers that earlier information a “hint” or a “clue”? I lean toward clue because in my poem interpretation, that first stanza info brings you closer to the chest, and didn’t Fenn define clues as things that get you closer to the chest, while hints just help you with the clues? So in my book, solving WWWH is clue #2. But if it’s #1 for you, that’s fine. I don’t think it changes our main ideological differences in poem interpretation.

            I’m on the fence about whether “canyon down” is a clue or not, but that’s only because for my WWWH, the canyon is unambiguous, and there is only one way to go. But if the action of “take it in the canyon down” is bringing me closer to the chest, then by Forrest’s definition that should make it a clue.

            “I don’t have a problem with a linear solve… I have a problem that all the solve are linear…. and look how well that (h)as done.”

            Well, if it’s any consolation, my first two clues aren’t linear, they’re interlocking. They combine to give a singular starting point.

            “If we don’t understand the first clue, it seems were up that famous creek without a paddle.”

            Well, if you allow that the starting point is defined by two clues, then I absolutely agree. You gotta have the right starting point. As a percentage of overall searchers, clearly very few of them have it.

            “Fenn warns us to be able to walk several hours to our solves, That doesn’t indicate walking through all the clues, but sure sound like walking to that location where the close might all be.”

            He drove to the starting point, so in my case he’s already knocked off two clues just driving there. He then drives down the canyon (it’s too far to walk, after all), so he may be up to clue #3 and he still isn’t walking. “Put in below the home of Brown” sure sounds like the end of the driving leg of the hunt. So a good fraction of clues have already been solved by this point, and you haven’t even started walking yet.

            “Fenn said he walked less then a few a miles… made two trips… told us he followed the clues to the hide.”

            Yep, but nowhere did he ever say he walked all the clues.

            “Could it be that he parked as close as he could, walked less then a few miles to the solve and the hide,”

            Yes.

            “used the clues to hide the chest”

            Here, our views diverge. I’m guessing you envision some number of clues (perhaps the majority?) spent on the final, fine navigation to lead the searcher through the last 500, or 300 or 200, or whatever feet to precisely where the chest is hidden. For a treasure hunt that was intended to last a couple years, I think you could do this. For a hundred years? A thousand? I say, no. I don’t think you can have the sort of permanent landmarks needed for that kind of fine navigation unless coordinates are involved.

            “How does my thoughts that the park(ed) car has no involvement with the clues and fenn walked to where all the clues might be in a small location not plausible?”

            Haven’t you already used up some of your 9 clues just to get where you park your car? Even if you park *at* WWWH, you’ve used up at least one clue (and I would say two). And you will have to get creative about how you’re going to “take it in the canyon down, not far, but too far to walk.” Aren’t a lot of aerial trams in the Rockies — believe me, I investigated them a couple years ago. 😉 But yes, if you concede that you’re down to 8 clues, and that you’re taking an aerial tram, or a donkey, or an elevator, or some sort of reversible transport down your canyon, then your version is theoretically possible at least that far. But I think having a bunch of clues all bunched up together at the end fails on two counts: longevity of the clues, and the impossibility of solving them before you leave home. Remember that “in theory” Forrest suggested all clues could be solved from home, put I don’t see how a bunch of clues within a few hundred feet of each other could even theoretically be solved without being there. Can you describe an endgame for me that will stand the test of time and can be worked out ahead of time before you even leave home?

          • Zap,

            While my hypothetical scenario is just that…. it doesn’t matter for the discussion what the first clue is… the point was do we need to travel all the clues or just follow them as instructed to understand them.

            You said, ~ He drove to the starting point, so in my case he’s already knocked off two clues just driving there.
            We don’t know if he started at the starting point or first clue or call it what you will from his vehicle… that is what I mean by, thinking too linear. Sure fenn said he followed the clues in the poem… he never stated he parked at the starting point.

            Is it is possible that he needed to walk to wherever the first clue or starting point is from his parking area? Which still means that the first two clues could be represented as my scenario if a waterfall and both clues are below hoB. IF [ in that hypothetical ] we don’t need to travel down a canyon but it can still reference a clue nonetheless. That might show us where hoB is… at that particular location of the first two clues.

            I would even use Scott’s example of “ten sleep” that could refer to the canyon as reference to; not far but to far to walk as the canyon… but, there is very little that says we need to go into that canyon… Unless you only read the poem as linear.

            As I said before; it all depends on how the poem is read as. “begin it” sounds like you must start a journey. “Begin it where” sounds more like a location of the clues.

            So in reading one way it would be like this; Begin it, where warm waters halt, and you take it in the canyon down.
            or Begin it where, warm waters halt and the waters take in the canyon down. Putting the “waters” below hoB. ‘the warm waters, put in below hoB”
            Very subtle differences, but, could mean the difference to solving the poem or walking by everything else. If linear thinking is all you’re doing, you are forcing the poem to be read as only one option. All I ever have asked is why limit your options? It’s clue written in poem form in a poetic manner for interpretation.

            It’s the same with 9 clues… why must we have 9 location and why must we travel, by any means, to all 9 location… In one of my theories, the traveling is only to get to the location, find the first three clues at that location move to a second location, very near the first few clues references, figure out what the remaining clues refer to, or even utilize them, and then to the final spot. [ distances doesn’t matter right now ]
            It’s all in how the poem can be understood, and where an 80 yr old man had to travel, carrying a heavy backpack, making two trips from his vehicle, in one afternoon’s time.

            Those after the fact pieces of information may not tell us where, but it is gold to tell us, where we might not want to go.

    • Ken,

      Just something to chew on – not an opinion of mine, but rather a thought.

      It’s not far but too far to walk – why can’t this be a descriptor of the canyon? I’ve posted this before so I will try again.

      Imagine Fenn is trying to point out the canyon he has in mind. For example, it’s not pink but dark red. In the case of the poem, “It” is the canyon and “is not far, but too far to walk” is the name of the canyon. “Too far to walk” may be a distance that is in a unit of measure that is not “walk-able” by reference.

      A unit of measure that comes to mind would be a distance measured in sleeps – as the american Indians once did. So Ten Sleep Canyon would be a canyon that is not far, but too far to walk, drive, ride, raft, etc., since the distance is not measured on a map, by rather in cycles of sleep.

      Further more, if the little Girl from India had a map of the Rockies, it most likely would not include the Bighorn Mountains even though they are technically part of the Rocky Mountain chain.

      My point is that there is always another angle from which to view the poem.

      Copied from Wiki:
      Ten Sleep was an American Indian rest stop, so called because it was 10 days’ travel, or “10 sleeps,” from Fort Laramie (southeast), Yellowstone National Park (west-northwest), and the Indian Agency on the Stillwater River in Montana (northwest).

      Whoa! Stillwater River!

      By the way – this solve even has a HoB at the east entrance to the canyon. I guess anything will fit if you try hard enough.

      Scott W

      • “… not far but too far to walk – why can’t this be a descriptor of the canyon?”
        —————————————————–
        Hi Q1werty2 … my impression is that by “descriptor”, you mean the name of a canyon, such as “Ten Sleep Canyon”. That’s possible. But here I would agree with Seeker. Names can change over time. A thousand years from now, that particular canyon might be named something else.

        If you want to consider that “too far to walk” refers to the physical layout of some canyon, that might be okay. In one of my solutions, “canyon down” separated WWWH from HOB by only 7 miles. But the canyon itself was so treacherous for walking and getting lost, it really was “too far to walk”, safely. I found that I could easily DRIVE an alternate route to HOB without bothering to risk a canyon trek at all. Yet, in the poem, HOB had to be connected in some way to WWWH, and my interpretation was that it was connected by means of the canyon.

        I gather, too, that you think the chest could be in a canyon. The only problem I have with that is that Fenn has said that from where the chest sits, “you can see mountains …” among other things. You can’t see mountains when you’re down in a hole. So all of my solutions now must be high up, relative to surrounding landforms, to provide some vista.

        Ken (in Texas)

  84. Time to start planning my 2017 Trip… I’ve got 2-3 good spots, and 10 days. Will be driving from Ohio to New Mexico to Montana and then a side trip to Oshkosh Wisconsin for EAA Airventure on the way home.

    I’ll let y’all speculate which of the 4 states my search will ACTUALLY be in 🙂

  85. TTotC
    “Unlock the clues that are scattered among these pages and you can go home with a bronze chest that is so full of gold and precious jewelry that it’s almost too heavy for one person to carry.”

    Bring a trusting partner to lessen the load.

    too far to walk
    He has tested the extremes in his personal life, in business, and in combat, where he learned that some of the edges were closer than he thought.

  86. I have a salve that from home of brown to the treasure chest is 20 miles would I walk 20 miles 4 times – I don’t think so – would I drive my car 20 miles park and walk less then 1/4 mile four times ?

  87. Children may well play a large part in the “big picture.” I can’t imagine them not being. The Flyer seems to have such a deep respect for them and has a special ability to simply and beautifully see through their eyes.

    SL

    • You may be correct and worded it beautifully. I’ve seen several photos of Mr. Fenn with children, and to see the looks in their eyes. Gosh, I don’t know if I can explain it. Somehow, I can sense this special bond they have, yet, I don’t know if that explains it correctly either.

    • I’m glad you posted this link, SL. It’s been a while since I’ve read this.

  88. Mindy James please post any updates on Mindy if you can… my thought are with you I hope everything is ok…

  89. Headed out from Rock Springs this afternoon. Stopped in Big Sandy where the wildflowers were exquisite and in Pinedale for the Museum of the Mountain Man.

    Just pulled into West Yellowstone this evening. Will stay in the wood this evening and head to my search area tomorrow…
    Only one day left to look before I have to turn and run for home. I am really having fun on this trip. The weather is cool and the wildflowers are spectacular…

    Saw a big blond bear yesterday in Canyon Pintada and a full racked elk who trotted on by me in the Bg Sandy area today…handsome devil!

    Life is good…!!!

    • Just missed you, Dal. I pulled out of W. Yellowstone around 4:00 this afternoon, bound for Bozeman, for an early flight home in the morning. Would’ve liked to buy you a beer and swapped stories. Thanks for the great blog.

    • Glad you didn’t get sucked away with the wind! Be safe dal, we kinda like ya round here!

  90. I am going to start by saying that every clue can be found in your computer it has to imo so we can see what is wwwh – what is hob – the blaze – in the wood -wwwh it tells you what makes it – and it tells you where to go from there – ff is not going to tell us to go north from wwwh he does in another way – it tells you about hob being in the canyon down and you can see it on your computer that its south – ff wants to tell us to go north and he tells us by saying put in below the home of brown – if you were to take a pic of hob and lay it flat on a table and you would be facing south you would be north of or below the picture of hob – so from hob every thing would north of hob where the chest is not far but to far to walk – so from wwwh everything is north of there imo you can see from your computer you can see hob – wwwh-the blaze and in the wood this is what I see right or wrong its just an opinion

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