Odds n Ends About Fenn’s Treasure Hunt…Twenty Nine

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Thanks…

 

dal…

567 thoughts on “Odds n Ends About Fenn’s Treasure Hunt…Twenty Nine

  1. I understand most people enter these discussions with a desire for approval and validation of their post……that’s not what I’m seeking. I’d like to try an exercise involving complete ridicule and contradiction of the following ideas to assist me in narrowing my search criteria. My background is in psychology and profiling, the subject being Forrest Fenn in this particular case. Much of what you will hopefully read is based on his tendencies, mannerisms, specific use of words, stories from his book and other information I’ve gathered over the years. There are also some probability based concepts that I’ve discussed with a friend who is a statistical analyst/actuary. I’ve thrown in a few of each to gauge interest.

    Probable = greater than 50% chance……please understand anything that’s written below (although it will come off sounding like fact) is only what I’m considering to be PROBABLE. I will eventually say the TC is PROBABLY in New Mexico, but that is not a fact. It’s simply more likely than not. It took me a very long time to fully understand the significance of “probability” and even now I sometimes question it’s validity. What we are attempting to do is create enough PROBABILITIES that we narrow the search area. Please dispute any of these ideas with valid arguments as to why they would not be PROBABLE. Of course there’s always a chance that the least likely event could have happened, but that would defeat our purpose here.

    1. The TC is closer to Forrest Fenn’s home than further. If we are to suggest the TC was hidden in Montana, for example, I find it highly unlikely for a number of reasons. Forrest did not have a pilots license at this time, so personal aviation is out. He did not drive as it’s over 1000 miles and multiple days of travel which I’m sure would have raised red flags. At the very least it would likely have been remembered by family members as a time when he was gone that they could eventually connect. His wife continually states she has no idea when it was hidden or even left the house. This means taking a commercial flight, hitching a flight with a friend or private high end service. It’s not feasible, PROBABLY, to take 50 pounds of gold on the plane with you. The same goes for checking baggage. Additionally this would be dangerous on a number of levels including being searched and questioned at the airport or the items being stolen or lost. I can’t even get my deodorant through security at an airport, let alone a cache like the one described. Asking a friend to fly you around also brings difficulties in hiding said package in that no one else knows when it was hidden according to FF. Also, in all honesty, a private jet service doesn’t seem like FF’s style IMO. Sending the TC via UPS also represents a myriad of issues including being lost/sent to wrong location/stolen, etc. Insurance is the next problem for each of the aforementioned modes of transport. How do you explain to UPS that you’re mailing 1 million dollars of treasure to yourself, in another state. And how much would/could you insure that for? FF is a calculated risk taker, somehow I think that one would be tough to stomach. But let’s say FF somehow transports this 50 pounds of gold to Bozeman. Now, he has to get a rental car, pick up the package or lug it from the airport, stash it in his trunk and drive away. Are any other tools needed? Shovel, cart, backpack, at least he requires some water/nourishment, something. So did he bring all this with? Stopped at Walmart? It’s definitely an overnight trip, so the wife or someone must have known he would be gone. Is he able to deposit the TC on day one, or is he leaving it in his parked car overnight at the hotel? That doesn’t sound like a great idea. You get the point in that, all this is possible, but not PROBABLE. In fact, it’s a goddamn pain in the ass. And I still don’t believe someone wouldn’t have noticed. It’s been speculated he hid it while at a Buffalo Bill Cody event, for which he sits on the board. I believe this makes it even more difficult bringing 50 pounds of treasure and then sneaking away to hide it without getting dirty/sweaty/arriving late, whatever it may be. I’d also assume his wife would potentially attend such an event as they often do when board members are invited. In closing this initial point, I would find it hard to believe the TC is not in Southern Colorado or New Mexico.

    2. Yes he did actually hide the TC and it is real. Based on research we’ve done, FF’s estimated net worth is over 50 million dollars. Giving away 1+ million of that total is a drop in the bucket which just goes toward his credibility. He has too much to lose in wanting to forge a legacy before he dies and even his message of enjoying the outdoors would be overshadowed by a hoax. Additionally, he is the type of person who would consider his heirs and the impact any nefarious activity could have on them. If it was ever determined the entire setup was not legitimate, the embarrassment would be great, and he already has a grandson who is in the “treasure hunting” business. Could be very detrimental, and thus, there is simply no reason to fabricate. The bigger issue I have is whether or not the TC is still there. I believe it’s PROBABLE that the chest has already been found. If you are a professional treasure hunter, or working with a team, you would simply never disclose this find as it would cost you nearly half the take in taxes. Professionals have access and sources to easily sell the items individually without being monitored. They also work as a team, and very efficiently. I could easily see a respected team having found it years ago. This also brings up the troubling issue that we will never be able to verify if the TC is still out there. I find this to be a fatal flaw in FF’s master plan, but regardless, one we’ll have to grapple with as we continue our search. As a side note, I’m quite surprised a number of the more notable searchers have yet to pool their knowledge and resources in an attempt to end this hunt. I do believe the longer it goes on, the lower the chances of recovering any TC. In fact, at some point, the chances of it being randomly found will be greater than that of someone who is actively searching for it.

    3. The poem is simple and should be interpreted as such. The simplicity, however, is what makes it difficult. It’s vague and ambiguous, by design, and very personal to one man. Let’s talk about that one man……from a profiling perspective, I won’t give everything away, but I’ll divulge a good chunk here. Forrest is smart but not intelligent. And there is a difference. IQ vs street smarts, everyone understands that concept. From what I can tell he basically completed the 5th grade and nothing further. But he learns quickly, has shown adaptability and a keen sense for building relationships that have generally survived over the course of his life. He was a pilot, and a MILITARY pilot at that. He didn’t go to aviation school at University, he learned in the military. What do we know about military training? Routine. Discipline. Drilling. There is a sentence in TTOTC where he talks about protocol prior to ejecting from his aircraft. It’s literally drilled into him. This type of training generally lasts a lifetime. Finally, looking at the writing style and language he uses in TTOTC, he generally sees things as logical and straight forward. He uses the words, dumb, stupid, biddies, etc, multiple times in his book. Simple words. Shakespeare he is not. His writing is plain and easy to understand, by design. That appeals to a man like this. He doesn’t like double speak, inefficiency or beating around the bush. He’s also not an artist or a mathematician or a cryptologist. His creative nature has generally shown itself to be hands-on and not necessarily cognitive. Having stated my opinion on his tendencies, I think it is more likely than not that the poem is structured from start to finish. Nothing would be out of order or unorganized. His clues are very literal in my opinion. But again, so vague, that they could be found anywhere. There are no numbers or coordinates involved, that’s not his style. He is NOT a numbers guy. I also doubt there are any ciphers or keywords that decode the poem. Finally, I wouldn’t spend a terrible amount of time looking to the book for the additional hint or hints as he’s explained. It seems to me that any hints in either TTOTC or TFTW were incidental or accidental and noticed only secondarily. He did not write either book with the primary objective of giving away hints. Thus, IMO, they are of minimal assistance at best and not likely worth the time sifting through that amount of content. It’s his street smart intelligence and knowledge of nature that allowed him to understand this poem would be a thousand times more difficult the way it was composed. Not by adding in secret coding or numbers, or additional clues. It also best served his primary purpose of getting people out into the wilderness to explore.

    I have a lot more of these generalizations, but if no one is interested or this takes up too much space, I won’t post them…..just interested to get some feedback. I’m sure many searchers have already had these discussions or opinions, but never hurts to bring it up again. Thanks for reading.

    • From what I read, I’d say your speculations are just that. Your assessment of the poem is incomplete, and your thoughts that his language is easy to clearly understand is a bit over-simplified. The way he says things is meant for people to read it as one thought when it actually means something different. He knows exactly how it will be read by most. It needs to be read with different goggles. It’s meant to be read in layers, but only if the interpretation can be verified three different ways. If interpretations are only clear to the dreamer, then they are just manic. It will all be revealed at some point. I would apply your simplistic perspective to many searchers or naysayers, but not to Forrest.

      • Well said Dave.

        Speculation will only get you off into the weeds, down the rabbit hole, chasing wild geese. I wasted much search time doing that.
        Education comes to a person in many ways, formal schooling may not be the best of them in many cases.

        I believe all you need to understand about Forrest is his deep love of the wilderness, and adventure. And to know he has the courage and ability to tackle any adventure. He has been very successful in everything he takes on.

        The person who finds the treasure will have followed the poem, it is straightforward, and paid close attention to suggestions, comments that Forrest has made over the last few years.

    • hurdlethief,
      If you truly want me to be critical, you need to do better research. While you have the basic of what is known, there are facts you don’t seem to know or at least have stretch the information [ more than likely from interviews and reporting of others ]. Just a suggestion.
      As to # 1. You suggest that fenn would have a difficult time traveling with a 42 lb chest. and dangers of carrying such an amount of value. The one thing your analyzing doesn’t take into consideration is, fenn has travel many time for many reason… for him to go one his own fishing, work related, etc. seemingly was a common practice. It was his life style from a young age throughout his life.

      #2, While a legacy will prevail one way or another. I think the challenge was presented more in lines with influencing future generations to not lose the wild, the nature, the exploring, the physical living etc. to gizmos and gadget and a life style of artificial entertainment. Only to become brainless twits with a piece of paper hanging on the wall to tell everyone how smart we are.

      Now we’re at #3 with your opening sentence; “The poem is simple and should be interpreted as such.” I have to question your comment as to how you have come to that conclusion with no reference to how difficult or not difficult the poem might be. That is a leap of faith in any manner of thought.
      Again, I’m not sure if you’ve done the research [ of the man ] Giving a 5th grade level education? His overall net worth of 50 Mil.? I’m also not sure I would agree that fenn intelligence, or lack of institution education, give credence to street smart as the main education factor. His father… a teacher and principal surely impacted his learnings.. whether or not he had good grades or bad, the learned application of education was a daily basis for him and his siblings. I also believe you are taking little consideration of the man’s time period when attempting to understand him. Learning skills and being educated along the way was life’s education in the 20’s 30’s 40’s is not the same today, and I dare say, may have been a much better method of true education than today. Half, if not more, than the student body of this country can’t read on an 8th grade level when graduating high skool… so much for educational institutional programs. He might not be a numbers guy, but in most cases, he has shown us he knows the numbers well. Just for one example… 1962 surveying methods comment. or calculating Dal’s age etc. while not taught at a fancy college with a piece of paper for proof of completion… the man’s “education” out ranks many today… math, science, literature, and yes art [ if you have seen any of his personal work, casings, carvings, metallurgy crafting etc.] [ but I guess that is also on the personal value’s of the beholder ]… all with a balance of eight plus years of experience.

      As to the poem itself… I have to ask, would all those factors or lack of factor influence the poems design? Sure they can. It’s only natural to assume so. But have you considered fenn might have thought the same and designed the poem completely different because we are doing exactly that?
      Fact; he told us it was difficult but not impossible.. in knowing that he wanted difficult maybe he took the “self” out of the equation.
      Fact; he worked on the poem for years to the point and stage he desired.. that is dedication. We may need the same attitude if we have any chance of solving the clues.
      Fact; he used the lure of riches as a get a reaction. That alone tells me fenn understand the human condition of this time period, compared to his youth. Without the ‘Lure’ many would not be here… but as you can see.. many have gone from treasure hunters to explores almost over night [ that would be a psychology and profiling exercise to consider ]
      That seemed to be fenn’s desire from the get go… how to get folks back to nature and explore. IMO he did this with nothing more than a big kick in our greedy asses. And it seems to have worked well.

      Unfortunately, the lure can bring along the obsessed, the mentally possessed, the paranoids, the braggers, the know it all’s, and the simply the nutters typical.
      Oh well, some can be save, while others can’t.

      That’s my profiling for today. I hope it adds thought to your inquiries.

      • HT
        One other comment – You say that Forrest got no further than the fifth grade. I believe you are wrong. He could NOT have gotten into the AF with only a fifth grade education. I believe (with the help of his dad) that he did get a HS diploma. You might want to check this out a little better. JDA

    • Hurdlethief, I think that some of your “probables” should be switched out to “possibles”.

    • Hello hurdlethief. I appreciate what you had to say, and found it interesting. I will keep this in mind. If I may, in #2, you stated Mr. Fenn’s grandson is in the “treasure hunting” business. I believe it is Mr. Fenn’s nephew who you may be thinking of. I think something that may be considered is how did Mr. Fenn get the treasure chest out of the house without Mrs. Fenn noticing? Perhaps this may be a thought to consider and what time he may have had available to him.

    • Dal or Goofy, would you be so kind to pull up my original response to hurdlethief, please? It went MIA. I’d like this person to read it, please.

    • Hurdlethief;

      A very nice write-up. Thanks for the input.

      I will address only #1. How did he hide it – and where.

      I disagree that it is in NM. I believe that it is in Wyoming – SO, how did he get it there? Forrest sits on a # of Boards of Directors for several museums in Wyoming. At least two come to mind. I am sure that it would have been no problem at all for him to have told Peggy that he was going to drive up to Wyoming for a Board meeting, and then a few days of fly fishing. Peggy would have thought nothing of it…it was a normal thing for Forrest. – So, Forrest is gone for a week or ten days – No Big Deal! Just a thought. JDA

    • “As a side note, I’m quite surprised a number of the more notable searchers have yet to pool their knowledge and resources in an attempt to end this hunt. I do believe the longer it goes on, the lower the chances of recovering any TC. In fact, at some point, the chances of it being randomly found will be greater than that of someone who is actively searching for it.” -hurdlethief

      I have thought the same thing about this hunt. As the years go by people will start to give up looking thus increasing the odds that if it is found it will be by chance. Like ff said this could be a long time from now. The best way to find this will be from a collaborative effort. The thing that prevents that effort is either over confidence in their own solves, not wanting to split the treasures, the reluctance to attempt to trust others or some combination of the three. If the treasure isn’t found this soon I would love to be part of a collaborative effort. By soon I am thinking this summer.

      Good points on the likelihood of the TC being closer to home. I think though that you over look one detail a little too much and that is that his wife says he didn’t know when he left to do this. Forrest goes to great lengths to avoid giving out clues that would narrow it down by that much. I think if he thought that we might take that statement too seriously he may ask Peggy not to mention that. Perhaps he did go for a long drive and she was under the impression that he was on some trip for business or donating items to a museum or any number of things. I don’t like to put much stock into her statement.

      I think your right that the design of the poem is simple and vague but he did put a lot of thought into it. I believe that regardless of someones perceived intelligence, if they are able to concentrate hard enough on a subject for a period of time they can come up with worthwhile results.

      Thanks for sharing your thoughts.

    • Hurdlethief – Interesting observations, some may not be that far off, others, I don’t know. Either way, your thoughts are interesting and entertaining. Your comments are thought provoking and worth consideration… whatever gets people thinking and to break out of their own perceived notions that may be limiting them.

      Being a psychologist and a profiler, and dealing with statistics and probabilities, you should well understand outliers; those who just simply aren’t in the generalized averages which the majority fall within. These outliers are sometimes very difficult to understand and figure out… I feel safe to say that f falls more in the outlier category than the generalized average Joe on the street. And when dealing with one, it takes significant effort and one-on-one time to get into their brain and figure out what is going on.

      As for #1, f has been very vague as to when he hid the chest, probably so people he knows and who knew generally what he was doing in his travels could not pinpoint a specific trip to a certain place to help narrow the location of the hidden chest. As f has said, he tried to think of everything… and this he would have given significant thought and planning to, and he did based upon the comments he has made on this point.

      A simple example of how he could pull off a hide of the chest in Wyoming or Montana.

      f: Hey Peggy, I have a meeting to go to up in Cody next month. I want to drive up a couple days early and do some fishing and enjoy nature like I always do on every trip we have taken up there. So while I am gone for the week, why don’t you go spend some time with the grand kids and spoil them rotten.

      Peggy: OK Forrest, I hope you have just as much fun on this trip as the other 500 trips you have taken. I can’t wait to spoil the grand kids!

      f now is able to get away by himself, take the chest with him, and go to wherever his special place is and complete his plan.

      A thousand scenarios could be thought up for how he could get away to wherever he wanted to hide his treasure.

      How intelligent is f? Short of running him through a bunch of the standardized tests and evaluations that exist to really figure him out, I have a difficult time going there. I think some of your assumptions and profiling is correct though. His street smarts are through the roof, and often times a person can appear to be very smart when in reality, they are just good with language and people.

      I have a difficult time judging people on their smarts and intelligence based upon formal education or lack thereof… some of the smartest and most intelligent people I know have little or no formal education, but they have educated themselves informally. They may not have a formal voice and professionally use the ‘educated lingo’ of that specialty, but they can often run circles around those with the formal education. I have two people in my extended family who dropped out of high school (who seemed to really lack in the smarts and intelligence department) but then later went on to get their GED’s, then an undergraduate degree, and then one getting multiple master’s degrees and the other a PHD. Sometimes it just takes people time to mature and their neurons to get firing at total capacity; others just never have the circumstances that allow them to thrive.

      #3 As for the poem and how to solve it, I take nothing off the table for how f has said to go about solving it. It is nothing like any other puzzle or challenge that has been created. The puzzle is just as unique as its creator.

      I find it fascinating how many people choose to go about this challenge their own way instead of listening to f and his recommendations of how to go at it. If the treasure is never found, this will be the reason the majority are not able to find it.

      The poem is simple and straightforward, yet the blueprint is challenging and the solution difficult. For those not in the majority above – and if the treasure is never found – this will be the reason it is not found… it is too difficult.

      But searchers are coming within 500 feet and 200 feet of the prize, though the searchers don’t know that they are. Yet we must realize and accept that their solutions to the poem are getting them to the correct spot and I suspect it is only a matter of time until someone finally connects ALL the dots and the challenge will be over.

      f no longer says that people have only figured out the first two clues, and it has now been about two years since he said that someone may have figured out four. He is also frankly surprised (as of recent comments) that his chest hasn’t been found yet… so we will see what the next couple of years brings.

      I am not so certain that it is the difficulty of the challenge as it is the factor of time and travel costs to get to the location and put ideas and solutions to the test. The level of confidence in a place/solve and a searchers persistence to keep working that one spot must be high. But I suspect most throw in the towel after one, or multiple, rounds of disappointment after being at the correct spot.

      • Hi, JCM – you said, ” I have two people in my extended family who dropped out of high school (who seemed to really lack in the smarts and intelligence department) but then later went on to get their GED’s, then an undergraduate degree, and then one getting multiple master’s degrees and the other a PHD. Sometimes it just takes people time to mature and their neurons to get firing at total capacity; others just never have the circumstances that allow them to thrive.”

        I rejoice for those family members who were able to ‘get their paperwork’ so to speak, if that was important to them. 🙂 But there might not be a connection between getting ‘papered’ (lol) and getting the neurons firing, as you seemed to imply – if I misunderstood, please excuse. I remember from ttotc that Mr. Fenn’s dad asked him if he would rather have his car worked on by someone who had been doing it for four years, or someone who had gone to school for four years to get the papers that said they could fix cars. (My paraphrase.)

        IMMHO.

      • JCM ~”f no longer says that people have only figured out the first two clues, and it has now been about two years since he said that someone may have figured out four.”

        It may have been an overlook on your part or just a typo [ lol I have been know to have one or two of those over the years ], but the comment was “first four clues”… I think it’s important, only for the fact that, the clues that have been deciphered were not random clues… but in the correct order. It may not make a difference to some, but for me, I think it’s important.

        Otherwise all the first two clues club members and the I know within 12′ club members will join together and start a new club… The half-aszz club with four clues.

    • WOW, you don’t have a clue about the intelligence of Mr
      Fenn.
      I can’t believe what you just wrote about Mr. Fenn, not being a numbers​ man, you obviously don’t understand what it takes to fly any type of machine!
      The fact he was flying a fighter jet the price they cost, and the training is so intense!
      So, you don’t think he was still flying at 80, you don’t have a clue to who he is.
      That treasure has not be found, I know a lot of people think I’m twisted because what I’m interested in is his Memoir’s and the CD.
      You must be well educated too have made such a limited disrespectful MO Mr .Fenn.
      I find it very difficult to debate with someone who already has all the answers!
      MJ

      • Martha ~”So, you don’t think he was still flying at 80, you don’t have a clue to who he is.”

        I don’t think you have some facts straight either. We know the date fenn sold his plane… If I’m not mistaken he gave up renewing is license prior to age 80. { personally I don’t recall the exact dates… but these topics have been discussed } There is a SB with a pic of the bounce check of the person who bought fenn’s plane, and made good by wiring the money later. The date is on the check, if you would like to go search the SB’s
        As well As, deep in the archives, fenn saying when he stop flying. { you’ll need to look it up }

        But, for the live of me I don’t understand why this could help with the poem… it would be only guess work /a hunch for anyone to say… the chest is in this state or that state because fenn stop flying and not in another state because it would be too far to walk.

        If we’re going to talk about hypothetical, different scenarios… profiling ~ [ which in my opinion is a waste of time ]… lets get the facts correct when doing so.

    • Well hurdlethief, I think the probability of anyone figuring out what a guy like Fenn will probably do is probably near zero. As others have pointed out you’ve made some silly assumptions probably from lack of research.

      But what I’m having difficulty understanding is why a smart fellow like yourself, with a background in psychology and all, is wasting his time and ours posting here when you believe the chest is probably found and long gone.

      It sounds like you probably don’t believe your own probability calculations which a smart guy probably wouldn’t do. I’m not a statistician, but having determined the probability of the independent events I described above I surmise your probability calculations are probably wrong.

      • @Goofy, you’re to nice on this expert, thought for sure he’d be a candidate for the nuk button! He must not of watched the book store interview…..Yes or No on renting a car Forrest? lol! One of these days I’m gonna hop on a plane to Vegas with 265 silver dollars rolled up and a couple of egg sized rocks just to prove a person can walk through security unscathed, I’ll check the bulky chest in at the counter!

        • Cholly,
          You mentioned “walk through security”… It’s not a matter of coins or how many etc. Security policies [at airports] talks about value in total. I’m not sure what that total value is [ folks can look it up if they want ] but if you carrying over a certain amount of value… that will raise a red flag… be it coins, paper, gold, diamonds etc. [ unless a license dealer ]

          Suggestions; if you live out of the country sell it. If you know where it is and live inside the borders, drive there. If you go to search, traveled by air, and find the chest… leave it and go back with a vehicle… no need to worry about cost of fuel and hotels at that point. Heck, I’d bet Diggin Gypsies and the Gypettes would drive you there if ya ask nicely. { That’s my brilliant plan }.
          I just don’t know why ya’ll are so dang worried about it.

          Counting your eggs before they hatch, comes to mind.

          • Agreed…none of it matters until the clues are unraveled and that pesky bronze box is in some ones shaking hands.

    • Hurdlethief…not really sure what your intention is here…even after reading your post twice. The content is full of non facts/assumptions/inaccurate research which makes tying any of it together nearly impossible. I do like cognitive exercises that make sense…all I can say here…is… psi.

    • I think you nailed a few things, such as the design of the poem. But you way underestimate ff. He’s not trying to nor ever will try to demonstrate his intelligence. That’s not his style, he likes it that way. He’s just himself. His combination of imagination and wit make him very intelligent. I suggest you go watch Jeopardy that seems more your style on what you think is intelligent.

    • NOTE…FF has written as a reminder that: No one seems to be focused on a word that might be key. Not an exact quote but basically what he has wanted people to know. This indicates that he intends for a key word to be found.

    • Commenting on #1…
      His grandson flies. He could have flown F & wife, toting two bags weighing 22lb each, mine weight about that! While in MT visiting family, he could have borrowed relative’s car, hid the chest in one afternoon, stopped and caught some trout and returned to relative’s home by dark. Easy!
      But, IMO, chest is in NM. But not going by your logic!

    • I have never met Forrest, but I believe he is a deep thinker and an observer. He chooses his words very carefully and purposefully lets people draw their own conclusions. I think taking his words at face value would be a mistake because he is a master of the double entendre. Mr Fenn is an incredibly clever man and says words like “biddies ” and “britches ” because that’s how we talk in Texas. A lot of people mistake southern slang for ignorance, but that’s OK. I know better. I deal with old Cowboys every single day and some are the smartest fellas I know. Maybe not book smart, but definitely know their stuff. The hardest part of all of this is to know what is real and what has been embellished. I believe if he meant everything he said, where would be the fun in that? It’s what he doesn’t say that’s important. Who’s to say that he doesn’t have a vacation home somewhere in Colorado or Wyoming or Montana?
      I don’t know, it makes sense to me that if he loved this area so much he would definitely have a private getaway somewhere up there.

    • You are correct that it is in NM but you guessed which is worthless. You are very wrong on his intelligence. He is razor sharp. There is one way and one way alone to solve this puzzle; read poem/book/map until you understand it. Musings such as yours will not get you anywhere. It’s very very hard work. Your actuarial friend might be able to help you but only if he/she has imagination. Until you understand probability far better than you do you are dead in the water.

  2. Wellll, BETWEEN 5k &10.2k elv..
    How about BETWEEN ,,, IE: 7.6 k topo contour +- ?

    • Bandelier National Monument is 5,000 ft – 10,200 ft in elevation from lowest to highest. I wonder if Forrest threw those values in there because of that, as a red herring?

      • I recently checked out Bandelier. What a wonderfully fascinating place… but I don’t think the treasure is hidden there. Too many visitors and a higher likelihood it could be found by chance (Unfortunately, like your treasure chest, Iron Will).

  3. Interesting…
    I believe you assume that the TC was hidden in 2009 or 2010. Forrest is silent on the matter, so I would be careful with this one. I also believe one must uncover the clues that are 6″ deep within the poem and not just what is written on the surface.
    Thanks for sharing your thoughts…

  4. I believe this to be a fishing explanation, presented pompously, in order to obtain information.
    Remember f said that when he encountered people that were wrong, the best thing was to let them continue with their beliefs, uncorrected.

  5. Some things you can never know. Don’t forget about the Joker. Mister Fenn could have easily put the chest in New Mexico but he didn’t. Two people just died trying in Wyoming and Montana looking for it. The Chase continues.

    • Roadhawk…
      There is no PROOF either hikers were treasure hunting. The wives of both said they were on “day hikes”. NO…AND I REPEAT…NO FAMILY MEMBER CONFIRMED THEY WERE SEARCHERS!
      Don’t say things that have NO VALIDITY. That wasn’t the same “Jeff” that posts here, he was at Fennboree!

        • Jake, your comment puzzled me. “Why keep hiking in the same place over & over again in a few months unless you were looking for something.”

          Some years ago two couples I know, along with their young boys, found a really special place along a little-known river and went there almost every Saturday, all summer long, for several years. They had a lovely little swimming hole that was theirs alone most of the times they went, shifted river cobbles around to make a “drink cooler” with cold water flowing through, alongside the riverbank, and plenty little harmless snakes for the dog to try to dig out of the rocks and chase. (Oh, there’s your ‘chase,’ lol.)

          They weren’t “looking for something” but they found plenty. So… not sure your comment is automatically ‘logical’ in all circumstances? IOW, sometimes a hiker just finds a really great place they want to keep to themselves and visit over and over. Might could be. IMO.

    • Thank you for the link, SL. It’s been a while since I’ve listened to this song. I agree with your latter statement. Somehow I keep thinking it’s a different song. I could be wrong. I went back and looked at the scrapbook he mentioned the song you gave mention to.

        • Gosh SL, I tried to comment, and when I pressed the “Post Comment” button, it didn’t show up. 🙁

        • And here I thought fats domino wrote that? I play that one on the guitar, she loves it.

          • pdenver.

            Hold that thought, (Molly) – Can’t find the notes I made about that name and its relationship to a small child…in India.

            A popular, Indian poet had composed a poem which connected “Molly” to something about
            “small rivers.”

            I had originally posted the poem in the Poetry section over 1 year ago, but it was removed. I let it pass.

            A great amount of research went into
            it. No idea about its whereabouts, nor where to even begin now.

          • Hello SL. It sounds like you really did put a lot of research into this. I hope you’re able to find it/them. I would have loved to have read the poem that you posted. I’ll try to see if I can find it online. There seems to be many Indian poets to research.

          • PD
            did you get the research I sent to SL or the research SL sen to me? I wouldn’t mind sharing ,and did in a earlier post. All in Colorado but I not discounting MN because of the pinyon nut comment.

          • Gosh SL, it looks like my comments are getting loss in cyberspace today. 🙁 I would have loved to have read the poem you posted. I’ll try to see if I can find it online. Seems there are many Indian poets.

          • Hello Bob Miller. Many have considered this as “below the home of Brown”.

          • Hello Bob. I quickly glanced through both. Remember the correction that was made about the Pinyon trees.

          • Bob, I’m going to try to respond again. I briefly read through both. Also, remember the correction made about the Pinyon trees.

    • pdenver,

      Thank you, my friend. I feel it would be extremely helpful.

      The poet’s name was one clearly related to the country of India.

      • Hello SL. Is the poet still alive? Still trying to search, and I began to wonder if you were thinking of Omar Khayyam, only because his name was mentioned before.

        • pdenver,

          It is not the great O.K. – The name was not a familiar one.
          I’ve been attempting to locate the “small river” connection, but to no avail.

          You are such a wonderful help, my friend. No problem if it isn’t located; will try again when able.

          • (Second try.) I wish I could have been more help. Hope you’re able to find it again.

      • Hello SL. I’m hoping this post will go through. My original didn’t. Is this poet still alive?

  6. You are wanting a collaborative effort, so here goes, on my solve of the poem.
    The poem itself must be broken down into sections first, so as to understand what Forrest is meaning, in each stanza.

    I have, according to my way of thinking, solved the sections before and after the “meat of the poem”, the contents. By doing this, it gives me an idea how Forrest is thinking for the solve of the “meat of the poem”.

    So the last stanza goes like this: So hear me all and listen good ( this section is just as it states, no need for interpreting further).
    Your effort will be worth the cold ( He is saying that when you pick up the chest and feel it, it will feel cold to the touch, page 111, The Thrill of the Chase.)
    If you are brave and in the wood ( The chest has a Gargoyle on the latch, so as per mythology, you have to be brave to pass the “thing” guarding the gate, thus opening the chest. Once you have opened the chest, you are now “in the wood” as the chest is lined with wood.)
    I give you title to the gold ( this section is just as it states, no need for interpreting further).

    • Jeff C…
      I agree. I also feel each, cold/wood, have two meanings just like other words in the poem. But, yes, those are my first choices! (imo)

    • I do like those points. I have had the same suspicion about worth the cold meaning the bronze chest being cold after reading TTOTC. I have notes about every line, as I’m sure many do, and it is my top note about that line. The Gargoyle guarding the gold and in the wood would make sense if he is indeed already referring to the chest from the line before.

      Thanks for sharing!

      • Aaron, thanks for the reply. The last line says “I give you title to the gold”, so from my thinking, as you now have opened the chest and got into the wood you get his blessing to take the gold that is inside. What are your thoughts?

        • It absolutely makes a lot of sense that the last three lines of the poem is all about finding the chest. Touching the exterior, opening it, and retrieving the gold. Like you said there cold be double meanings as in other areas of the poem.

    • Is the latch an actual representation of a “Gargoyle”?
      I’ve never really zoomed in on it or thought about it. So, even if it is… my problem is the reasoning of why fenn said every one in the poem was deliberate, the clues will get you to the chest, it would be unwise to discount any words in the poem… But you have a full stanza that would not be needed as helpful or informational to get closer to the chest.

      I have to wonder, because fenn indicates the challenge in the book and dares us to find it etc etc. why it would be needed to simply repeat it in the poem? That is the same line of thinking that stanza one is an intro only, stanza five is just saying something like~ it’s our turn to have fun, or he is sick and dying, or just another stanza as part of a closer to the poem’s challenge… and now stanza 6 is basically saying … good job.

      That’s a lot of poem and words to leave out of the actual use for finding the chest… when he has said basically, don’t discount them. If I take it a step further… some have suggested that stanza 4 is only saying, after you have found the blaze [ one line], looked down and there it is. [ half a line ] Which basically leaves two and a half more lines useless in “finding” the chest.

      Ya have to wonder if any of that above is remotely true… why the heck did it take 15 years to write out 9 lines and why even bother taking any of that time to add simple things we already know from the book… if they are not “needed” to find the chest [ actual clues ]?

      You could be completely correct in your interpretation… be what a waste of space if true, imo. As well as, why tell us not to discount them. Sure, sure not all the words will help, we have been told that has well [ in the same comment ] but at my count stanza 6 has 29 words out 166…seems to me that’s a lot of words to just say, hey here’s the chest good job, you must have listen to me well. Then add stanza 1 with 25 + 29 = 54 words out of 166, Then stanza 5… well, you get my point.

      I think this method you’re doing as a process of elimination of parts of the poem, that do not actually help to lead to the chest, is mistake.

      Food for thought.

      • Seeker, are you sure you’re not overthinking that every word is intentional? Every word can be intentional and have to do with the finding of the TC without actually being a clue to get you there. The intentional words in the first stanza points to a larger area. The meat of the poem directs you where to go within that area. The last stanza is full of intentional words that explain the exact opposite of the first stanza. It goes from a large area in the first stanza to a 10″ X 10″ area in the last stanza. Seems pretty intentional to me. I would not discount double meanings in the last stanza. I am certain that the first stanza can be construed as having double meanings.

        • “There are a few words in the poem that are not useful in finding the treasure Phil, but it is risky to discount any of them…”

          “The poem in my book is something that I changed over and over again. When you read the poem it looks like just simple words there. But I guarantee you that I worked on that. I felt like an architect drawing that poem.”

          These comments are just a couple more to think about. I don’t think I’m over thinking or analyzing, as much as, many are attempting to make it simple for them to understand… Don’t need this stanza, and that stanza is just a filler, and another stanza is just saying ~ if ya heard me and found the chest it’s all yours, good job.

          Don’t listen to me, listen to the guy who started it all…Maybe I need to look up what “a few” means.

          *The word is half his that speaks, and half his that hears it.
          -Michel Eyquem de Montaigne*

      • Thanks for the food for thought.
        Its always interesting to put some ideas out there and hear the interaction/reply.
        What I see is that there are 9 clues, this is undisputed. But these clues can be either a word/words/sentences. The poem has 24 lines, so some of the poem will be clues and the rest will be connected to the clues in some way.
        The poem tells a story of sorts and so none of the poem can be discarded. Not all of the poem will lead one to the chest as there are only 9 clues that will.
        My thoughts.

  7. Attn. Searchers
    My friend Paris Wallace has been missing for 44 hours in New Mexico. He was looking for the treasure. A missing persons report has been filed. His belongings have been found at his hotel room in Taos NM. He was due to be back in Grand Junction Colorado on 6/14/17. His car has not been found. Evidently he was searching in the Espanola area. Please set up a separate topic for the search for Paris.
    Thank you,
    Wendell

    • Is there an official missing persons link for this? Description of the individual. Make of car?

    • Wendell, I’m sorry to hear this about your friend, I’ll keep my fingers crossed for him.

    • Wendell — I assume no response calling his cell phone. If the phone is on and still has battery life, authorities ought to be able to ping it if he’s in an area with sufficient cell coverage. Alternatively, I don’t suppose his Tahoe has Lojack or something similar?

        • Company might have Fleetmatics installed if it is a fleet vehicle, a call to their administration person will find where the vehicle is

          • This is the official statement re Pastor Paris. We are asking that everyone share this official post, and refrain from sharing other information, etc. Please contact the authorities if you have any information.

            RE: Missing Grand Junction Pastor, Paris Wallace, Lead Pastor of Connection Church in downtown Grand Junction, CO

            Pastor Paris Wallace, Connection Church, Grand Junction, CO, was reported as missing by his wife at approximately 5:00 pm on Wednesday, June 14, 2017.

            Paris traveled to Espanola, New Mexico on Monday, and missed a meeting on late Wednesday afternoon. Paris is driving a tan / beige color, 2001 Chevrolet Tahoe bearing Colorado License Plate FQS-377.
            Paris is a White / Filipino Male, approximately 5’9” approximately 200 pounds. Paris is clean shaved and has chin length dark colored hair.

            Anyone with information is asked to notify the New Mexico State Police at 1-575-758-8878 and notify Connection Church at 970-523-1857.

        • I got a uncle and step brother that belong to biker chapter close to Taos if you get that plate # I’ll relay it to them to see if they can help.

        • Wendell – I just called the church. Hiway patrol line is busy.His truck is just past Junction Bridge in Pilar. I took a picture of the plates.

          • Fantastic detective work, lifesablaze! Your hunch may end up saving that pastor’s life. Fingers crossed for a good outcome.

        • Personally, I’m not making sense of “Company car…” and earlier post of “2001 Chevy Tahoe” ???

          Typically, a “company car” would Not be a 16 year old full size SUV. Just my thoughts on something doesn’t seem accurate here, but probably doesn’t make any difference.

          I hope he is found safe and soon.

          RedEx

    • Wishing you and his family and friends the very best. May he be found soon, safe and sound. As I always say – TRY and STAY SADE searchers. JDA

          • I THINK I saw this guy in one of the fennboree pics. (Or a guy that looks a lot like him…but his hair is a bit more grey) believe its #43 on Old Drums list.(?) Maybe just a similair look. I only recall because I was just asking who that guy was becauae he looked familiar like an author or something….sorry if I’m wrong just mentioning it in case.

    • Wendell,

      36°20’11.3″N 105°43’59.0″W
      Parked Vehicle- Put in

      36°20’29.7″N 105°43’35.0″W
      Place for the meek- maybe he tried to climbed there to 7000’ elevation

      36°24’50.8″N 105°41’50.9″W
      Maybe his blaze?

      36°23’08.0″N 105°43’20.2″W
      Power lines fall rapid- Heavy Loads and Water High?

      36°28’34.0″N 105°43’58.9″W
      Rio Grande Gorge- 10 mile distance from the car

  8. HT,
    I don’t think Forrest had any trouble hiding the TC, nor does it really matter how he did it. IMO of course .

  9. While the chest’s contents (and the chest itself!) are valuable enough that dividing the treasure still yields a nice reward, the bragging rights for being the “one” who figures out the poem are a huge deterrent to a collaborative effort.

    • I totally get the bragging rights aspect but if it continues to not be found wouldn’t bragging rights of your group finding it be better than none?

  10. Thanks for all the initial input everyone……I have a few responses that I’ll get to later tonight. I’d like to draw a few of these conversations out.

  11. Any one want to start making side bets. On what year the treasure will be found…. I’m going with 2021.

  12. Hurdlethief, and the many other people analyzing the poem with a sharp focus, I agree that ff’s oral statements, while clever, are usually spoken by Forrest carefully selecting his choice of words and he is pretty good at emphasizing what will not get one into trouble or reveal too much detail leaving room for a wide range of interpretations by us, but do not let his “Awe Shucks” style of expressing ideas fool or lul you into believing Forrest is marginally, or not sophisticated…ly, educated. I hold many may do that because it makes them feel superior.

    Do not under estimate your foe.

    We all do trust that truth is in ff’s statements, otherwise we all would not waste time Thrilling ourselves, I say that until the TC is found some of his remarks are confounding, tongue in cheek and confusing. Like you hurdlethief and your Accuarial friend including all who believe ff’s actually done this deed, my obsession no, my belief is that my hobbies and occupation for 70 years gives me a slight edge so to speak in the Chase, since an applied street smart ability, even tough I hold a degree in Business Economics and a minor in Accuarial Science, that streeability allowed me to access a person’s character, with an eye toward probability of profit on a “Risk” and yes made millions of dollars for “Corporate America” and a nice living for myselof in the process.

    Carefully examining this man’s profile is more fun and better than odds on multimillion $ lottery, so that said one necessary aspect intended by ff to find the TC is to know the poem and, like the Gray Fox says; refer and research the two books, for example in TTOTC ff said there were Hints of how to interpret the Clues, This was spoken as well as written by him, also stated in stanza one of poem. I tried to think inside the book instead of outside the box, we know the POEM is the Rosetta stone, “So hear me all and listen good” sounds more like a hint to verify where you are at, at the end of the maze at the marvel gaze, it follows this statement would be an a pronouncement by an Oracle, hint, not a clue.

    Imagine ff using this word; “BORDERS” and why would ff have used it as the name of a bookstore?

    Boarders Book Store was where he got the Great Gatsby and For Whom the Bell Tolls, what made me pay attention was when he made comments re: “For Whom the Bell Tolls” that were INCORRECT ie, story was about Spanish Civil War, he was inferring that it was Different War, WORLD WAR I, but ff knew better, so I thought the guide in the beginning of TTOTC which you know it as; “Life deals you 4 cards and a Joker”. So why, was it possible that the Joker (incorrect) statement, the hint might or was BORDERS, and/or WW1 then I thought WHY WW1? Is there a place that could be WW1 like WWWH? As a pilot Latitudes are a perspective ff knows as 0 degrees to 90 degree, for example the border of New Mexico and Old Mexico is 32 degrees north lat. What happens when warm water’s get to 32 degrees? Now halt and use your imagination, Texas border with Southern NM is the Rio Bravo (Mexico) Aka Rio Grande USA and near 32 degrees lat.
    Seems he has done that joker trick several times, at least 3 or 4, look at chapter 45 in TFTW, there ff says that Hamilton is shot in the head by a mountain man in his contest to gain Fenn’s $100 bill? Again, the Joker shows up, Old Ben’s portrait is on the $100, the hint you ask? 45 and 45 equals 90 and the cost to take a shot at Old Ben was $10 and so 100 minus 10 also equals 90 equals and who’s portrait is on the $10 ? Hamilton who was actually shot in a duel, not in the head, but in the abdomen by Aaron Burr. 90 is also distance to fly Olga’so ashes, tragically brother Skippy drown in 90 ft of water, furthermore it is exactly 90 miles to Colorado BORDER from Santa Fe? I do not make this stuff up, which Canyon goes Down out of Rockies Pecos, otherwise Rio Grande?

    Tom Terrific as in, always enthusiastic to save the Rockies!

  13. Does anyone find it interesting that for as many instances of people coming to his home as have been mentioned over the years and the effort that FF has made with clues/statements to try to eliminate that happening, that (to my knowledge) there hasn’t been anything released to officially deter searchers from going on Private Property in any of the 4 search states?

    As far as I can tell, the general consensus seems to be that the TC itself is most likely on public land, but perhaps you have to cross Private Property at some point on the path? It just seems like if it were something that you didn’t need to do (going on Private Property at any point), it’s something that would have been said by now.

    Conversely, there’s the “not hidden in a dangerous place” quote (mysteriouswritings – questions with fenn 1, 6/9/14) which, while there’s an argument that private property isn’t dangerous, it could be argued that trespassing laws imply consequences for violating them (which could be construed as a danger).

    Thoughts?

    • @Fmc regarding access to the TC via private lands…..walking along river banks is legal in some states even though it may appear as private property. The access point must be public such as a bridge crossing where easements are wide enough to enter the river banks….IMO. Sorry to hear about a missing searcher, hoping for a good outcome.

  14. Somebody contact Wendell – I just drove down to Pilar. The truck is just past the Junction Bridge. I took a picture of it. Straight on the dirt road. Don’t cross the bridge. Where the Rio Rancho and Rio Grande join.

  15. North on CR 570 about 7 miles to the Junction Bridge don’t cross the bridge go straight on the dirt road the truck is there on the left.

    • Roughly GPS coordinates: 36.33647 N, 105.73307 W. Unless he parked a little further up on the left in the small turnout.

    • I live about 3 miles from there as a crow flies. I go down there all the time. My good friend is with Carson FD and Search and Rescue here in Carson, I just called him and left a message and am waiting for him to call me back, if Search and Rescue get involved he will be called, I will post when I know more.

        • I hate to even post this because it might be nothing but this is what is what I have been told is happening now. They found a receipt in his vehicle for rope that was bought in the last few days from a local hardware store, they also found a rope that is tied off at the side of the Rio Grande in the area his vehicle is and it matches the rope that was purchased, as if someone tried to tie themselves to the rope and search in the raging Rio Grande. They are going to search the river now. A Search and Rescue helicopter just flew over my house and is heading to that area of the Rio Grande and I believe it is to search the Rio Grande.

          • Thanks for the update Mark.
            I was afraid of that.
            Even with a rope tied to a tree or vehicle & you’re on the other end in a raging river spells disaster.

            I hope this is not what happened.

          • Thanks for this information Mark. Appreciate any information you can give.

          • I hope he is found OK – the search community doesn’t need to lose anyone else.

            This is a chance to make sure nobody else in the search has an accident due to water conditions. If you are crossing a river this time of year, please be aware of the conditions. Some parts of the country received extreme amounts of snow and it’s affecting the river and creek flows more than a normal year.

            The crazy thing is there’s no good way to “test” conditions if you’re not familiar with the area. Some time ago I tried to walk across what appeared to be a shallow creek. I was wrong and, even though I was probing with a walking stick, fell in. Believe me a walking stick does absolutely nothing for a person in water that’s over your head. I eventually drifted with the current downstream and got out soaking wet. The takeaway for me was there’s no absolutely safe way to “test” the water without putting yourself into some risk.

            Never again for me.

            Again, I really hope they find this person OK.

  16. Okay Searchers- ‘Lifesablaze’ found my friends truck North of Pilar at Junction bridge (Outstanding Lifesablaze) Now we need to find my friend Paris. He did not have a raft with him (That we know of) When he left Grand Junction. I checked Goggle Earth, and there are only a few trails around there. I appreciate all of you! Wendell

  17. He parked in an area where people fish where the Rio Rancho and Rio Grande merge. The river is huge right now. My sitting spot on the Rancho is underwater. The only trail from that area on that side of the river is the old landslide road. It’s not probable that he would walk up from where he parked when he could have driven a little further to park and walk the road. North from there on the Rio Grande is the Box. Not passable on foot. North up the Rancho the rocks are big but possible to climb. I’m thinking he was at the Y where the two rivers converge.

    • I have been checking if he stopped off at any sporting goods store to buy a raft. He was either ‘Taking it in the canyon down, OR ‘Putting in below the home of Brown’. What is around there that fits?

      • No Brown that I have identified. It’s not logical he would raft from that particular spot when the rafting put in is just 50 yards to the south at the bridge.

      • The Rio Grande near Taos has a box canyon up where the big bridge is.
        And it has a lower canyon, south of there, perhaps refering to where he parked his car at theOrilla Verde Recreation area.
        Where Warm Water Halts may refer to the waters from the Aqua Caliente Spring.
        The Home of Brown may refer to Picuris Peak from which Aqua Caliente flows down to Pilar. It was said by somebody that the people of Picuris Pueblo refered to their governor as ‘Brown’. Perhaps after Jean Baptiste Brown who somebody once said had lived near there. The ‘put in’ is a boat ramp near where Paris parked his car.
        I am not stating any of this as a certainty of clues, hints, or firm opinion. But if he was following any of my posts about the area, that may have been his reasoning. All IMHO.

    • With that information, I guess we have to add ‘Heavy Loads and water high’ too.

  18. If you Google “missing nm hikers”, at least ten articles pop up. Most articles state “hiker fell”.
    Please, always let someone know where you go, your route and return time. Carry a hiker locator, a charged phone, adequate water/food, first aide kit, space blanket, whistle and a gps. These things can save your life!.
    Wearing high boots to protect ankles from turning and a hiking stick are a must!
    Stay away from high water, the banks are usually unstable and can collapse easily. And DON’T over stretch your own physical abilities, it’s just not worth it!

    I know I’m preaching to the choir, but just had to repeat F’s words of wisdom!

  19. I know the area where he parked his car very well. It was one of my favorite search areas. I wrote about it a few times, but I hope he doesn’t go beyond that spot. I found the embankment too difficult for me, or an eighty year old man.
    The Orilla Grande Recreation Area does get a lot of traffic as a popular camping, fishing, and rafting spot.
    I should go there tomorrow to scan it.

      • Searchers are a pretty good bunch and I know everyone is hoping to hear good news about Paris. Please keep up informed about the official search.

  20. My husband was in Wyoming the past couple days for work. He spoke to someone in Lander and was told their snowpack was at 300% this season, and it’s down to 200%. Their concern is flooding. He was also told Yellowstone received snow a couple days ago. If water is in your solution, please be aware.

  21. Did anyone comment on how the “map witching” went? I was looking around for comments from the event and can’t seem to locate any. Suggestions where to look? Thx

  22. What is the one thing you can learn from all the bad news lately?

    All the hikers/searchers were alone except for Randy & the K9 barely survived.

    Don’t expect your pup to go get help for you when the crap hits the fan.
    Your best friend will stay with you no matter what condition you’re in & of course stay at the last position it saw you.

    Paris has a lot going for him if he did not try to cross the river.
    It’s warmer, more light in the day, lifesablaze hunch – don’t tell Seeker, he doesn’t believe in them.

    Still got a few hours of light left.

    • It’s not for everyone, but I’ve hiked, hunted, backpacked, and camped solo in the mountains for decades and I’m here writing this. But, as I said, it’s not for everyone.

      If you decide to go solo, the most important things, IMO, to bear in mind are listed below. Common sense, I believe, informs us these things are relevant even when part of a group of two or more. In times of great stress, the human mind becomes even more fickle, hence, behavior may suprise you:
      A) I am fully and solely responsible for my own safety, security, and well being.
      B) I am NEVER completely safe; there is ALWAYS risk. I could be snugly and smugly reclined on my sofa in the living room and the sky (space junk) could fall on me, but let’s be realistic. I can never fully, or even acceptably, mitigate ALL risk.
      C) I prepare for stressful situations by envisioning them and mentally sequencing through a likely scenario. This will help me think more clearly if an event does occur, and it’s likely I’ll be better prepared physically and logistically (see item B above).
      D) When hiking in the mountains, even on a trail, I continually ask myself, “Which step is the most important one (on this outing)?” The answer is always the same: “The next one.” This applies even if I’m part of a group, as an injury to one may turn a casual day-hike into a survival situation.
      E) I always make plenty of “human” noise and remain aware of the wind. This is for the four-legged inhabitants whose home I’m visiting. If I’m making plenty of noise that distinguishes me as human and I even spot a bear, cougar, or other top-tier predator, I am likely to have a serious problem and should immediately consider shifting into survival mode (see item C above), especially if it’s likely the animal also has my scent. It’s definitely NOT the time to reach for my camera. On very windy days, more frequent and louder noisy outbursts may be required.

      There are plenty of tragic stories out there; it does happen. This shouldn’t deter anyone from enjoying the great, great, great outdoors. I’m not saying my little list above ensures safety for any searcher, for there are extremely few guarantees in life – I’m aware of only two. Along the way, though, we should be able to enjoy it – life, that is.

      Be informed, be prepared, and stay safe.
      Joe

  23. Seriously a hunch. Someone said he was searching in Espanola area. Nothing there. More logical upriver Embudo or Pilar. So I drove to my spot in Pilar. From where he parked I don’t think he got in the river. There are better places to park and put in. Also, if you are going down river you have to get back up. I’m thinking up the canyon between the two rivers. There was a day pass in the window. You can’t stay overnight where he parked.

  24. I didn’t look at the pass. I wasn’t sure it was his truck til I got back home and checked for more info. I just took a picture of it and went back home. There was a guy walking up the road I asked him if he knew how long the truck was there he said he thought a day or two.

    Oh, I hope they find him. The Rio has taken 2 rafters out of Pilar already this year.

  25. I am out of the Yellowstone area. No chest in my hands. But I had a fantastic time. I will be writing a story about that when I get home. The creeks and streams in the park and surrounding area are full and fast and powerful. Wildflowers are perfect and the land is green. It’s a lovely time to be there as long as you stay out of rivers and streams…and pay attention to what Forrest has said about the location of Indulgence…Don’t go anywhere a 79 or 80 year old couldn’t go…be smart about searching…don’t take chances..

  26. Dal,

    Is there a reason why the search box doesn’t return results from any of the archives (WWWH, HOB, etc.)?

    Thanks,

    FMC

  27. Fmc,

    The ‘Search Box’ doesn’t return ANY……results In my experience attempting to utilize it. Cant understand why it’s even there.

    • Search Box appears to return results matching ‘Blog’ entries, but does return any results from the ‘Forum’.

        • That’s a good point I guess. I’ll modify…

          Dal, any way to add a search the forums option or incorporate the forums into the existing search box?

          • FMC, I’ll answer your question. We could add a custom search engine here on the blog. The problem, even though Dal has a beefy server for this type of site, is a search engine is such a hog on system resources. With nearly 200,000 comments and the traffic we normally get the server would come to a standstill.

            As others have suggested google’s advanced search feature works pretty good. If you want to go through the archives using the “control f” feature of your browser on each post for the word or phrase you are looking for would give you the most accurate results.

            https://www.google.com/advanced_search

        • Fmc (and others): Dal has provided the following search suggestion before, but here it is again for convenience. Go to Google, and in the search box type in:

          site: dalneitzel.com

          where is what you’re searching for (don’t type the angle brackets). For instance:

          site: dalneitzel.com uncertain knowledge

          It’s not a perfect solution, but it can often return what you’re looking for.

        • Sorry — I forgot that Dal’s blog filters out angle brackets. Let me rewrite it:

          Dal has provided the following search suggestion before, but here it is again for convenience. Go to Google, and in the search box type in:

          site: dalneitzel.com (keyword)

          where (keyword) is what you’re searching for (don’t type the parentheses). For instance:

          site: dalneitzel.com uncertain knowledge

          It’s not a perfect solution, but it can often return what you’re looking for.

  28. I give you title to the gold.i read as,i deed you title (deed) to the x. The knowns are the unknowns. And the unknowns are the knowns..i believe mr.forrest is talking about donald henry rumsfeld.he wrote a book called ,known and unknown a memoir. Dick cheney was sort of dons doppelganger. And don is mr. Forrest doppelganger. Love you mr.forrest.and all you people.

  29. I went up to the Orilla Verde, Rio Grande Recreation Area, near Pilar to assist in the search and rescue of the missing searcher, Paris. I arrived at the search location near the Taos Crossing bridge, near the west end of the slide trail, at 11:00 am.
    There was already a group of search and rescue people there. I approached a person that seemed to be in charge and introduced myself. He asked if I was one of the treasure hunters, and I affirmed. I told him that I had searched that area before and posted about it online. I said that it is possible that Paris may have read my post and attempted to pursue my thoughts further. I pointed to an area where there is a grove of trees across the Rio Pueblo de Taos as a possible location that Paris may have tried to go. I asked him if that is where the rope used by Paris was found, he confirmed that it was. I told him that where is where he may be found.
    Aside from that, I walked around the field that I usually search for petroglyphs and cairns. While there I scanned the area for any anomalies and clues. I looked up across the Rio Grande above the Sunset Rapids. There was a large boulder beneath the ridge. And beneath that boulder was a man sized place to sit in the shade of the rock. From a distance there was what looked like legs, and above those was a round spot that looked like a face. So, I waved at the shape beneath the boulder. It gave no response. I then used my cell phone to flash light at the shape. I still got no response. I then told one of the search and rescue crew to look there with his binoculars to see if it was something or somebody. I thought that everybody else was looking down, maybe somebody should look up. I then left at 12:30 noon. There were a lot of people on the scene. On the way out there were about eight young people scanning the banks down river. It was a very well organized search party.

    • What was the response of the search and rescue guy with the binoculars? I am from pariss home town and have been keeping up with this blog reading all of your interactions. It’s much appreciated.

    • Thanks for donating your time and knowledge to the search & rescue efforts today, Michael. Sincerely, you’re a good person.

    • Michael Hendrickson, You’re a very kind man. It appears you’re always willing to help others. Thank you!

  30. I just spoke with someone from Taos Search and Rescue – still no word about Paris.

    • There had to be some words spoke if you spoke with them???
      I know you found his vehicle & confirmed the tags, but there must be some info to share except for the obvious.

      Not a good situ & my hat’s off to you for getting out there right away.
      It doesn’t appear to be a positive outcome unfortunately.

      You did all you could do & are a good soul.

      • Good one Jake. I don’t know about you but I find myself analyzing words and reading between the lines now even in everyday conversations. Always looking, looking. As if there is one big clue out there. It’s exhausting! Anyway I ran into a Rescue searcher at the WalMart and briefly spoke with her. She told me they had not found him yet. That was around 5 pm. I only know they found the rope on the Rio Pueblo and his backback about a mile and a half from there. There is a little springs up the canyon a bit (I think that’s where Michael was saying to go) That was my first thought too. It’s not far from where he crossed. Infrared search through the night revealed nothing. It seems he crossed the Rio Pueblo ok. There was no need for him to cross the Rio Grande with a rope from that point because you can just walk across the bridge to get to the other side.

        • Thanks for the update lifesablaze.
          The more time that goes by without answers does not bode well for Paris.

          From the info or lack of info you & others have provided here from the search team & from yourselves, I am saddened by what I read.

          I know there is hope but time is running out & we should all think about our next search & what F has said on MW recently.

          Most of us make our decisions ourselves & see the gold in our pocket but think multiple times over & talk it over with those close to see if it may put us in danger & may be a crazy solve.

          Some have common sense but many do not have uncommon sense.

          Don’t let the lure of money guide you to the treasure foolishly.
          Human life is not worth all the money in the world especially when you cannot spend it where you may end up as we all will, but don’t rush it.

    • Lifesablaze.
      Looking at the location of where Paris may have crossed, he probably assumed the canyon down was lower toast canyon, hob was Rio Pueblo. If you cross the Rio Pueblo and follow the Rio grande canyon north along the Eastern side, you’ll run into a spot on Google maps called Power Lines Fall Rapids (power lines cross the canyon here according to Google maps) This could be Paris’s Heavy loads and water high.
      I suggest professional search and rescue search there for him.

  31. The more I read the more clutter I see. This reminds me of the original Sherlock Holmes with Basil Rathbone as Sherlock. When solving cases, the answers were right there. It was just the matter of removing the clutter and making the discovery. Look at his use of English and old English, he drove his car to the site and walked from that point to hide the chest, two trips, etc. Remember the old saying, hide in plain site. I think these thoughts will help.

    I have been in Tucson, AZ for 14 years and about 10 years ago I started prospecting and metal detecting. I never found much but I always marveled at the fortitude of the old miners. I would sit and have lunch by my Jeep and stare out at the landscape and wonder how they did it. I guess I’ll keep doing that even if I don’t find much.

    • (Second try.) Sounds like you’re having a great time prospecting and metal detecting.

  32. Bob Langner II,

    I think you’ll see a lot – Seems that you already have. Keep doing what you’re doing,

    Life’s Good.

    SL

    • Thanks Lady V,

      Unfortunately, there is no new news… That report was “reportless” (yes, I made up that word).

      I too want to find the answers, but it doesn’t look good at this point.

      Thoughts and prayers for Pastor Paris!

  33. Thanks pdenver for link,
    I wasn’t in the chase at that time, I bet Mr. Fenn went ballistic for a few minutes! I certainly would! I must admit, I am very sensitive, with a wicked temper!
    I wonder how that turned out!!!

  34. As I was watching the local Albuquerque new this morning, a story popped up that took me aback. Anothor one of our fennamily members is missing. Paris Wallace of Grand Junction was last seen in the Española area. He is a pastor. I did not meet him at Fennboree, but I believe he was in attendance. Sad news. I’m sure he’ll be found safe. He was last seen on Tuesday. That is all I have. Anybody else know anything?

    • I’m so confused. this article on Fox news quote Wendell as saying he didnt really know that Pastor and had no idea if he was searching for the treasure….what is going on?!?!

      Wendell…was it juat a “hunch” that made you poat that? If so please explain as this seems it could really derail search efforts. Then again maybe its wrong info on fox news? Please clarify!

      http://www.foxnews.com/us/2017/06/18/authorities-pastor-missing-after-search-for-hidden-treasure.html

          • Thanks for letting us know Slurbs, please everyone don’t go out by your selves… (:

          • A terrible tragedy. It is starting to resemble a bad year on Mt. Everest. I have a question for Seeker (or anyone who wants to chime in): on MW Weekly Words last year (7 October), most of you will recall that Forrest wrote: “*If you have a searching partner, best to have them wait in the car. f” However, in his most recent, and lengthy “Featured Question” regarding safety, he wrote in part, “Two searchers together is an absolute minimum, but three or even four is better. Stay within eyesight of each other.” How would you resolve these seemingly conflicting recommendations? I could think of only one way out: that the treasure chest’s location is within eyesight of where you park. Can anyone come up with another interpretation that works?

          • Nice catch Zap. Not the first contradiction though so it’s hard to separate the facts.

          • You don’t really believe Forrest meant dogs, do you? While (remarkably) there are no specific laws on the books that prohibit doing so in New Mexico, Colorado, Wyoming or Montana, I have a hard time believing Forrest would advocate leaving a dog in an unattended vehicle.

  35. If you haven’t solved the poem up to the look quickly down from your desk, when you go out on your search, DO NOT take any unnecessary risks whatsoever!
    If you can’t solve it and feel absolutely sure that you have when you do, then you have not solved it.
    It’s better to spend the time at your desk than out in the woods where there is more danger than you are contemplating at any given time.
    It’s great to get outdoors and there are many rewards, but it’s also full of surprises that end up in dangerous situations.
    FARE YE WELL!

    • Why can’t I go out in the woods and think about the poem?
      More folks die at home each day ~ slips n falls, home invasions, in some case by the hands of a family member, or a random bullet from punks to hunters or stupidity of the gun owner’s alone, or attacks by the neighbors mutt. The reasons and happening are endless and common, compared to wondering around the mountains, rivers, and wild life… I’m not sure your suggestion is helpful or even accurate.

      In YSP ~2015 there was 4.1 million visitors and one death. Over a 30 year period the average stayed about the same… some related deaths; auto accidents, slips n falls… snowmobile incidents… drowning etc. That is just a small area [ with a large population of visitors ] compared to the huge area in the search for the chest. Not to mention, more wild life dies by the hands of man, then the other way around. Who and where, is really in danger here?

      However, I did look up that information, at my computer desk, on the World Wide Web, in the safety of my home.
      Just saying………

  36. I can’t Remember but didn’t fenn keep the chest covered with a red bandana in his vault before he hid it.

  37. In Forrest’s Scrapbook Seventy Three he posts the question: “Who made the rule that says I shouldn’t end a sentence with a preposition?” This scrapbook is not the first place that Forrest has put forth this question. Perhaps we were not listening tightly the first time. The answer seems to be so important that he feels it is worth asking at least twice. Once in one of his memoirs…and again here on the blog.

    Like many of Forrest’s questions it is framed as a challenge, of sorts. Directly asking his dear readers to search for an answer..but why? It cannot be because Forrest does not know who is responsible for making his sentences outlaws. The answer is easily found by anyone with access to Google or a Carnegie Public Library.

    Perhaps the answer is a hint…or not…

    John Dryden is believed to be the first person to publicly posit that English sentences should not end in prepositions. Dryden created the prescription against “preposition stranding” in 1672 when he objected to a line in Ben Jonson’s 1611 poem which reads, “the bodies that those souls were frighted from”.

    Dryden was himself a poet and playwright and often stranded prepositions at the end of his own sentences…breaking his own rules…just like Forrest…

    Interestingly…there is a gold claim called the Dryden Mine. It’s just outside of Yellowstone National Park…and it appears to be for sale….

    http://westernmininghistory.com/mine_detail/10124543

    I certainly would not suggest that anyone go snooping around a registered mining claim without permission. That’s a handy way to get shot…or worse…

    But curious…don’t you think?

    • Lol, “claim jumping” is still a FELONY and probable cause to shoot in some states.

    • My take about him saying, “Who made the rule that says I shouldn’t end a sentence with a preposition?”, Is this a reference to that he makes his own rules and walks his own path? Also, adding exclamation to ” don’t mess with my poem”. In the main, writing purists suggest that those that end sentences with a preposition lack proper education. FF has talked about education in some of his stories- the atomic bomb he was responsible for, as an example. He ends a sentence in a preposition;maybe because it was best stated that way due to the alternative change to proper would change the intended dynamic of the sentence structure. Just my thoughts I had about this.

      The Dryden Gold mine: Is this name the original name of it and could the name change after it’s resold?

      Interesting post, thanks Dal.

    • Fenn has said there’s a couple of good hints and a couple of aberrations that live on the edge.
      Could it be the subtleness of a hint, “in the text”, of the book refers to the preposition rule?

      fenn’s definition of aberrations; something different….?
      What does he care about correctness or rules in literature, as long as you understand what he is saying… line of thinking.

      Fenn might have asked the question about who made the rules… Yet, it could be more about the rule itself and not the who. ( If it’s a hint at all… But a good question and catch, Dal. I never thought of this comment before as useful)

      Still pondering.

  38. You may be having trouble on the blog right now. It is being hammered by an inordinate number of visitors and the traffic is slowing things to a near stand-still. I believe this is traffic related to the missing pastor/searcher in New Mexico. The story has moved from local to international news cycles and thousands of people are trying to find out more about the treasure he was after.

  39. F: “Look at the big picture”
    When Forrest said this, I think he was referring to Montana.

    “Big Sky”
    Not necessarily Big Sky the city but more so the state & yea, that was on their license plates before the treasure was hidden I think.
    Now it’s “Treasure State”.

    • vigilante code, adds up to 24. 3 7 7 7.
      All staties even have it on their sleeves. Just to add to the treasure state.

        • 3+7+7+7= 24…..24 lines in the poem. Some kind of code speak not of Da Vinci.

          • I saw the 24 being lines but the other simple math isn’t so simple.
            Maybe charlie will fill us in.
            He’s been doing this for at least a year here & still don’t see it.

            Paint by numbers.

          • Jake. I am just one of those people that innately sees numbers in everything. I don’t count sheep to sleep but I do complex math equations in my head to sleep lol. I am really good at roulette but I don’t gamble much.

            Yes 24 lines, 24 punctuation marks etc etc. But I did not and don’t see much use working with numbers for my solve. Symmetry is a natural relationship between words and numbers. This can always be deduced by observation but I personally don’t see the poem following any form of creation by numbers. Words and numbers are just natural synergy. Imo. It is said that a word is key, not a number. Just saying.

          • Perhaps it is a number that is key!

            3.141592653589793238462643383279502884197169399375105820974944592

            Just ask JDA… The poem is circular in nature [please pardon my Euclidian perspective]. 😉

          • Fennatical . The true PI is 3.16 using base -12 math. Based-10 is 3.14. Lolol. Try applying that to the poem and see some amazing symmetry. 12 is symmetrical to 24. Still won’t help with the poem in my opinion though. 🙂

          • Ya Fennatical,
            That’s what he’s working on.
            An infinite #.

            There isn’t enough space on all the servers in the world to get the true value.
            The true value will never be known with this route.

            I like Blueberry & Apple pie & will give him the crow pie.

    • “…even when bad things happen to good people, God is still in control. And we ask today, that you would move us through this week, thinking on these things.” – delivered by Pastor Paris Wallace, June 11, 2017, the Sunday before he disappeared.

      • Very strong words by Paris.
        I wish he & others would think about what could lie ahead in their minds before the ultimate.

  40. Forrest reports that the body of Pastor Paris Wallace has been found.

    Please be wise and be careful and heed the number one instruction.
    ” I want all the people who are looking for the treasure chest to understand that they should not go looking anyplace where a 79 or 80-year-old man could not carry a 42- pound box.”

    • Thank you, Dal and Mr. Fenn, for the update. Prayers to the family and friends of Pastor Paris Wallace.

    • My thoughts are with his family this Fathers day.

      I know Forrest meant exactly what he said when he made that comment. I hope everyone can take him at his word, there’s no subterfuge.

    • I think it is clear that an 80 year old average person will not go where a rope is needed to cross a river, or a raft, go underwater, outrun a bear, climb a hill over 25 degrees, excessive walking distances, climb trees, caves, mines, trespassing, etc…

    • This is completely another senseless and avoidable tragedy and I think that we, as a searcher community, can be more proactive about steering people away from the Rio Grande.

      The Cheat Sheet, which a lot of beginners refer to, should be updated to include: “If your solve is in the desert, get a new solve, and remember, much of the Rio Grande River is not in the Rocky Mountains.”

      • Jeremy ~”This is completely another senseless and avoidable tragedy…”
        I’ma pickin up what ya puttin down.
        The quote would be great for an add on to the chest sheet [for future reference and information]… but that will not avoid stupidity.

        We know not to poke a hornets nest, yet some still do. We know not to leave children is a car alone, but unfortunately we have parents and supposed care takers that are beyond stupid…

        Accident happen, a slip or fall etc. However, even when the information is known about safety, many people ignore it… too many. We have seen folks involved in the challenge jump into action without a second thought, to help another… I give the great credit for their selfless act …
        Yet the reasoning, they had to, was more in part of the searcher/person not thinking about proper safety or preparation beforehand, ‘even’ though the warnings have been stated… over and over and over again. Here’s another warning that many don’t seem to listen to; Don’t get target fixated…

        We have read a lot of searchers solves involving deep water crossing, some on make shift rafts, shear cliff/terrain descending, searching in the dead of winter, and sometimes alone. looking in areas that are not in the search area [ without question, but actual told facts, and still ignored that ]… and on and on.

        What do we do as a blog and search community? We pat them on the back, tell them how brave they are, what a great job the did with their solve, and throw pity parties when they come home empty handed [ even though, there would be no way a mountain goat could get through some of these areas ]

        Yep I agree. Jeremy, “senseless” and “avoidable” But, the responsibility “starts” with the person themselves… not some cheat sheet on a blog. Folks need to think before acting.

        Rule #1… common friggin sense. [Oh! right, IMO]

      • While it’s true that 2 in 200,000 is a very small number (0.001%), if we cared about such small odds of something happening we wouldn’t be in the business of treasure hunting. One fatality matters. Two in the river is nuts. If it were up to me, the Cheat Sheet would say: “Above 5,000 ft. Below 10,200 ft. And stay out of the ****ing Rio Grande!”

        • Jeremy,
          On another thread someone posted..[paraphrasing] until you have a complete solve, stay behind the safety of you computer desk because the mountain and wild etc. is to dangerous.
          I had to laugh at that.

          There are more dangers in and around your own home, and 4.1 million visitors to YSP with the average of one death per year shows how safe a wild place can be with following simple rules and understanding of being in a place like that, can be relatively safe and enjoyable. [many of those death, and I’ll add injuries were related to vehicle accidents, snowmobile incidents, falling etc. Compared to animal attacks, or in general what many think are dangerous places.
          4.1 million is 1/2 the population of NY city… look up the death toll there for a ‘single month.’

          When it becomes dangerous, it’s because people don’t think. Like falling into a steaming geyser for a picture, or wanting to play with bear cubs or Oh cute snake with a rattle.
          Adding information to the cheat sheet isn’t going to stop anyone from being stupid.. especially.. if they ignore what has been stated over the past 7 years already.

          I could list, at the very least, 15 plus warnings fenn has called out, that many reading this post today, completely ignore…Why? over-fixation of a location because they “know” it has to be that place… “they just know it!”
          And right out the window goes common sense and the warnings.
          Sure it is upsetting to hear that someone died… but put any population of 200,000 of any residential place, on any map and look at the death tolls for a year.. ya might see a big difference.

          You also are representing a group of, as you say, “treasure hunters.” I completely disagree with that. How many posting have we read with people who never stepped foot in “the wiles of nature” before? Never been on a hunt before? Never been farther that a few miles on foot from places they know well, and if so they were camping and picnicking.

          Not everyone here is like Brad, who stated he works for S&R. Or Dal who has experience in actual treasuring hunting [land and sea] Or Goofy who 4 wheels into the unknowns, hikes to the edges of the wild to take fantastic scenic views… for us to gander at in our homes.

          Seriously, NO BS… if we’re going to talk about safety… folks need to listen, But we have no control of the ones who don’t. We’ll just hear about those, who didn’t, later.

          • Seeker: you’re certainly not the only one to use YSP (as any Google search will show), but isn’t YNP a better abbreviation for Yellowstone National Park? Perhaps it’s your way to distinguish it from Yosemite (not that there’s much need for that in the Fenn search context).

            Safety posts of late have brought to mind one of my favorite Gary Larson Far Side comics:

            https://www.flickr.com/photos/iankaren/3180167122

          • I’m not arguing any of that, Seeker. I’m simply saying that every life matters, and we can do more as a community to prevent these things. Fenn’s hands are tied, ours aren’t.

            These people aren’t stupid. They’re just lost in their own heads. They don’t have someone to talk them out of it.

            Here is my personal email address: jeremysdropbox@gmail.com

            If anyone out there feels the need to go on, cross, or otherwise be in the vicinity of the Rio Grande, looking for Fenn’s treasure, please give me the opportunity to talk you out of it. Anyone is welcome. Let’s chat.

    • Thanks Dal,
      My prayers go out for the family of Paris Wallace…..

      My fellow searchers….. listen to what Forrest has told us over and over….. and use a little common sense please…..

      Until next time… see ya

    • I woke up this morning to the very sad but not unexpected news regarding Pastor Wallace. My sincere condolences to his family and friends.

      To Lifesablaze and Michael H., Bravo Zulu, navy speak for job well done. Your selfless actions greatly accelerated the location and recovery process and you should be highly commended for quickly jumping into action. And my apologies if I missed someone.

      Concerning Forrest’s comment about the desert, can someone please explain why this region is considered a desert because based on what I’ve seen and read, the area where Pastor Wallace was searching does not fit the definition of being arid, devoid of water, and little to no vegetation?

      Again, my condolences to Pastor Wallace’s friends and family.

      Pinatubocharlie

      • Charlie, most all of Northern New Mexico is considered High Desert. Except maybe parts of the Enchanted Circle. I don’t think “high desert” is an official term, but you hear it a lot. It generally describes areas with minimal rainfall and scrub plants. I don’t know what Fenn meant when talking about desert.

        • Thank you Goofy. Glad to hear I’m not the only one scratching his head about Forrest’s use of desert.

          Pinatubocharlie

    • Thankyou for the update,Dal.
      Condolence,s to the family and friends of Pastor Paris Wallace.
      This is just heart breaking that this RIVER has yet again taken another soul. Please use common sense,people,
      Rest in peace, Pastor Wallace.

  41. The Rio Grand Gorge is, IMO ; no place for the meek, the inexperienced adventurer is easily luled into a perilous environment, it is hostile there to all living things.

    I have Kayaked, fished and even back packed into it, one rainy night while backpacking in there, a monumental rocks slide came down on each side of the bank where I had camped below just below Power Line Rapid, my life was spared by a huge boulder outcrop above my campsite but the rock slide formed a natural dam and a small lake formed immediately and forced me to seek higher ground fast, in the dark.

    When I wrote the article on this blog in March 2017, called “Winter Thoughts” I specifically pinned (penned) the Rio Grande Gorge as my solve for “No place for the meek”, I EVEN SAID FROM THERE, AS IN, DO NOT GO “IN” THERE. TOO FAR TO WALK, it has now claimed two of us searchers and yes I went in search for Randy B. and NOW Pastor Wallace, …..does anyone doubt my solution now? Under Search TYPE this “Winter Thoughts” or “Tom Terrific”.

    I think it is time for Forrest to say in no uncertain terms that the Rio Grand Gorge is off limits in the Quest. After exploring Northern NM for most of my 70 years, please heed the warning…no place for the meek in the Gorge.

    Tom Terrific

    • This is not Forrest’s Fault. There are hundreds of dangerous places where Searchers can and do get into trouble — and if they’re going there it’s their own damn fault and their own responsibility if they do something stupid ..

      Now, everything I’ve read says he safely crossed a smaller river and his backpack was found a mile and half away, so I’m not sure if he was found in the Gorge or not – but it doesn’t matter, because it would be impossible for Forrest – or anyone else – to list and exclude every possible probable dangerous locale that exists across 2000 miles of elevation ..

      Every searcher is an adult or under adult supervision and Forrest is NOT responsible for their actions. If someone can’t use their brains to understand ‘don’t go where an 80 year old can’t go’ or to stay out of something dangerous – like an over-flooded, raging river or a too-steep rock face – they’ve got no business out hiking without an expert guide ..

      Now, I’ve been telling searchers for a year and a half that the Rockies can bite – So have Dozens of other Searchers, and for a lot longer. But, I’ve been hiking them since I was ten years old, and doing Search and Rescues since I was 16, so if you wanna blame someone blame me, cuz I don’t care what other people’s opinions of me are, but do not put someone else’s questionable actions on the shoulders of Forrest ..

      Randy’s excursion should have been a lesson and the heavy late spring snow should have told everyone STAY OUT and wait ’til the waters recede — and someone from Grand Junction should have known better ..

      Brad

    • I think he did say that, didn’t he? In his most recent statement to Jenny earlier in the week?

  42. In order for us to know where to go we have to know where he went. So why is it That I must go. And leave my trove for all too seek. Is the start of the poem. IMO. Then once you figure that out apply. begin it wwwh an so on

  43. Tom Terrific wrote: “The Rio Grand Gorge is, IMO ; no place for the meek, … it is hostile there to all living things.
    ——————————————————————————————————
    Yes it is hostile. But in addition to being a dangerous place, any gorge or deep canyon such as the Rio Grande is inconsistent with Forrest Fenn’s comments of where the chest is located.

    Fenn words: >>> If I was standing where the treasure chest is, I’d see trees, I’d see mountains …”.

    You can’t see mountains if you’re standing in a hole.

    Even recently, I have seen on YouTube intelligent searchers searching in a side canyon of the Rio Grande Gorge. No, you won’t find the chest in a side canyon either, in my opinion. Try some vista, instead, where you can see mountains.

    Ken (in Texas)

    • Ken, did you actually read “Winter Thoughts”? I specifically said DO NOT GO INTO THE GORGE.
      Brad no one is blaming Forrest, that would be tantamount to blaming Smith and Wesson for an act using a pistol they manufacturered. I wish that ff would just say don’t go into it, and Smith and Wesson already says that the misuse of firearms and or international acts are not their responsibility.
      Tom T

  44. This is terrible that a searcher has been lost and died trying to find Fenn’s treasure. Tragedy can strike at any moment and Mother Nature does not discriminate. Forrest has given plenty of sage advice about searching and being safe doing so. My thoughts are with those close to Paris Wallace and I do hope that others take notice and modify their plans accordingly.
    I am in D.C. for a week or so and plan to spend time at the Vietnam Veteran’s Memorial today and other places of reflection…stay safe folks!

  45. Yes, Ken. If you just saw my post regarding Paris Wallace, I hope that means you are a Moderator and can release the post from moderation. Still don’t know how I always end up there (moderation). Just makes me be quiet.

  46. I do not know Paris Wallace, nor the actual circumstances which might have led to his passing. I do know that I’m feeling sad for those he’s left behind.

    Peace be with you.

  47. How sad that another life has been lost. My thoughts and prayers go out to Paris’ friends and family. God Speed. JDA

  48. R.I.P. Paris Wallace.
    Anyone searching in rivers and lakes PLEASE wear a life jacket.
    They cost less than $20 and I believe would have saved both Randy and Paris.

    -Randawg.

  49. As fate would have it, we drove to Angel Fire yesterday via the Taos route. We saw the divers on the side of the road hailing down police. Soon many emergency vehicles followed. We knew it was not a good situation. They were still there 3 hours later as we returned home via the same route.

    The Rio Grande was running very high and swift. My husband thought it was running about 3000 cubic feet per second …. very, very fast.

    I don’t know all the details about what Paris was doing … only that he was trying to cross a tributary of the Rio Grande at its junction with the Rio Grande via a rope across the river.

    He must have slipped.

    Again, we must heed everyone’s warnings … do our homework and not go it alone. I’m at fault for going alone most of the time when I treasure hunt. Accidents can happen quickly.

    Be safe everyone.

  50. So sad once again why don’t people relize Forrest didn’t cross a rageing river Or shimmy up a mountain. He was 80 !!!!! It’s most likely taped with duck tape under a picnic table Anyone over 40 realizes how hard it is even for us to search crossing over logs trying to get up a steep hill crossing a creek our balence ain’t what it was at 25 I can’t imagine 80 Sad for his family

    • Ohhhhhh wow on beaver creek mike Peterson isn’t he a searcher name sounds familiar

      • I wonder how many have gone up that creek searching for the treasure.
        100, 200 or more.
        I knocked it of my list over a year ago although it does still hold interest.
        Where’s Stinking Cabin Creek?
        Rock Creek is too rocky.

        • I have several times but where that guy was found was way up there. Don’t know why he thought Forrest hiked that far up there

          • I saw the highlighted area on the S & R map & thought the same.
            That area is not doable by an 80 yr old & is too far to hike a couple trips in a day. I excluded much of that area using GE As well as many other areas.

            Don’t know what he was thinking…..

          • I’ve searched all them creeks more than once and cabin creek is not a safe hike either people need to mark that off there list search the campground but that’s it the trail behind campground Forrest did. It hike that steep cliff with a treasure chest And rock creek again to steep. Could of hid at the bottom
            But not the top People really need to visualize a 80 year old hiking with 40 pounds

          • Figured you searched all those creeks above Quake & Hebgen as many have.

            Maybe that’s where the 200′ deal went down.

            I excluded all those creeks without a footprint thanks to GE.
            Put me between Big Sky & Hebgen.

            Gotta thing for Tepee & need to get the fire burning in the middle.

          • I searched all those too don’t honk thereos many places I haven’t searched in west Yellowstone or towards big sky

          • DG: in my opinion, you’ve been closer than 99% of searcher’s. So has Jake, so has Dal, and so has HMA. You and Dal certainly deserve props for incredible persistence!

          • Annyone who searches west Yellowstone I think are hot hot hot. Well outside the park hehe Woke up thinking of the guy that died on beaver creek could of been me or any one I ever brought with me up there My knees are a little shaky now We have done a lot of dangerous things looking for the treasure too moved rocks on the side of hills which made other rocks fall toward other people. Crawled in dark holes where snakes were cross the Madison more than once In waders that weren’t safe Walked on the side of hills sideways tripping over logs that nearly stabbed us the woods are treacherous the rivers are unpredictable the animals are always around the corner My thinking process has sure changed over the last 5 years I now will never walk more that 200 feet and it has to be a good easy access area to a small wooded area on a small hill over looking the animals and water Hope all the new comers learn from our mistakes

    • Zap,
      He was searching for F’s treasure I’m told by a friend in Montana who is friends with a S & R team that pulled him out of Beaver.
      A very sad 2017 search experience.

        • You know how news agency’s work.
          They go with the stories that get more ratings so they can charge more for the ads & make more money.

          Obviously it hit home in NM where F lives.

  51. My condolence and prayers go out to Paris’s family and friends. Please don’t everyone assume that he made a bad decision. It’s possible that he had a heart attach, stroke or some other natural mishap. So don’t assume. In any case accidents can happen anywhere at anytime even with good judgment. Pray for his family and friends.

    • My same thoughts and prayers go out to Mike Petersen’s family and friends. R.I.P. Mike and Paris.

  52. Hi everyone. I check in here occasionally but rarely post. It saddens me that another searcher is lost. This is probably my last season on the chase, mostly for financial reasons. Before I go, I want to offer those who will listen some good advice from the poem itself to keep everyone safe. “As I have gone alone in there and with my treasures…” Important observation: The place Forrest went alone was also the place he took his treasure. So, IMHO, you don’t have to look further than “in there”. “From there…..” is too far and you walk right past the treasure. Put in below the hoB, period. Wherever your hoB is, the treasure should be below it or you probably have the wrong spot. No need to continue any further “From there” to somewhere no place for the meek that would be dangerous for a child, an 80 yr old man, or anyone else. All IMHO. Forrest loves people, especially children, so he wouldn’t hide his treasure anywhere you couldn’t take your kids along with you. Please plan your trip carefully, and I wish everyone a safe journey. – C.B.

    • C.B.
      Let me try and understand you comment better.

      Start where warm waters halt… the waters take it in the canyon down… not far, but too far to find the chest, because the chest is much closer than the traveling of the canyon’s-waters.
      From hoB ~the “end is nigh” of your search area [near], is heavy loads and waters high… which HLAWH might be closer to WWH, than others might think, or even possibly the same location? And hoB [in there] is very close to the area of WWH and HLAWH…

      Is that the basic of what you’re implying? If so, it sounds reasonable to me… Clues representing places on a map. Clues, well within an close area for an 80 yr old carrying a heavy backpack twice from his vehicle, done in one afternoon, and walked less than a few miles [ IF that means, total miles ].

      I’m sure you have more thoughts about all this… But I like your thoughts lol.. or what I think your saying. Hope you post more often from here on.

      • Third attempt posting: Hi. Seeker, I’m not giving any new thoughts than the ones Forrest has provided. The poem he said, if followed precisely, is a map to the treasure. Forrest also said if he told us what the hoB is we’d go directly to the chest. – C.B.

        • Oh, Ok, I thought you posted to have a conversation. Apparently that wasn’t the intent.

          • No, I’m not big on conversation., but I do care about the safety of others… That’s the only reason I posted my thoughts, to hopefully keep someone from going into dangerous territory. Best, – C.B.

    • Guess I shouldn’t of tossed that pebble into Ojo Caliente on Jun. 11th. Oops my bad!! Read the signs before you get dumb struck by the beauty of it all folks.

    • Thank you, Mark. I experienced an earthquake with a magnitude of 3.0-3.5 in Colorado, and that tipped me over in my apartment. Can only imagine a 4.5 magnitude.

  53. Just aired another piece on Inside Edition.
    Don’t get me wrong, I don’t watch that show.
    Sort of a follow up from this morning.

    They keep stating 2nd death but I’m sure it’s at least the 3rd.
    Road Hawk pointed out a couple others about a week ago.
    Sad, but we must move on SAFELY.

  54. I think the Oak Island Death count is six . Of coarse the news folks aren’t calling for that hunt to stop are they ? Hmm ?

    • Lets be realistic. The search area there is mostly below ground and ocean and swampland. The main search is / was 90 plus feet in a well size hole. I’m surprised, over the all those decades of searching, only 6 have died. That, and it’s only for the extreme wealthy with large company backing that its even possible to do a search, not to mention special permits etc.. You can’t really compare the two.
      This challenge was meant for the average Joe… but Joe needs to think more.
      “It’s not a matter of trying, it’s a matter of thinking. Sure, I mean people figured the first couple of clues and unfortunately walked past the treasure chest” [SF podcast 11:40 min. ]

  55. Good Morning America said F WASN’T calling off Chase! GOOD FOR HIM!!! 🙂

    New searchers should study ALL that F has said to be informed.
    In the mountants.
    Not in desert.
    Most of Rio Grand not included.
    NOT in water, but wet.

    Sad someone had to die, but F IS NOT to blame for someone not using common sense!
    Just my opinion.

      • Jake, I wanted to ask you a question based on your idea that the chest is in water:

        At what minimum distance way from the chest would you be able to see it?

        I am just curious if you think you can see it at any distance away , other than right at it touching it with your hands?

        Just wondering is all.

        • I think you can see the blaze from about 20 or 30′ ft away.
          I don’t know what min dist you can see the chest.
          The water may be cloudy.

          • Oh ok. Thanks Jake. Just was wondering your means to see it at a distance , if at all. The blaze is your final visual locator, sounds like.

          • A drone will not help.
            Drones have very good cameras & that’s why I think it’s either buried or buried. Under ground or under water.

            Funny in the interview that Toby posted, F mentioned burial even though they mentioned buried…..

          • Ya, I don’t think it is buried, nor in or under water but to each their own as this is. I don’t think drones help either. I did some pretty extensive and creative recon of my area and saw something most intriguing. I had a really good camera and from an awkward position, angle and height I have a picture of something . It was when I returned home I looked at the picture and saw something very odd- really out of place. I did a bunch of photo manipulations to get better details..very interestiong. I would say it is pretty awesome camouflage. Directly down from my blaze. Too bad trusting someone to search for me is not possible. Not buried but within something I would say. Easily missed by distance and height.

          • Do you think the treasure is directly below the blaze?
            Do you think it’s in the open or covered by nature?

            In the open.
            Was in the open but covered by nature.
            Buried under sediments by him.
            Buried under water by him.
            Placed in a crevice & hidden with stones.

            There’s only so many options.

          • Mine is quickly down from the blaze, not directly below it; down like saying ‘downtown’

            Words of describing ones current status such as: I think, I believe, I hope, I assume, I am pretty sure, makes sense to me, etc etc. I would never personally go and search with any of those being my status. But there are rules and ridicules justified lol.

            What I have a picture of ,is what I think is a replication of something in one of his SB’s. IMO. I couldn’t finish , I had to leave and I live not close by . It’s a tricky area that requires quick learning by experience for it to be easy.

            So, I will say, I think it is covered in a somewhat open environment and somewhat exposed to the elements. IMO. I will go again but I don’t know when right now. Frustrated at the moment lol.

          • It’s getting warmer in Canada.
            Been in the high 80’s & 90’s in FL.

            At least I don’t have to cross the border LOL.

            Just use good judgement as you did before & don’t let the lure of all that gold suck you into somewhere you shouldn’t be at that time.

            As I told my bro James when we went in June & the creeks were raging.
            He wanted to go too close to the fast moving conveyor & told him: Your life is not worth all the gold in the world.

            He backed off like all should do.

            I don’t get how “quickly down” interprets to “downtown”.

          • We are the same climate basically as most of middle America here in all of souther Canada. It’s only cold for 4 months. Just convert Fahrenheit to our Celsius readings.

            Downtown as down from blaze , I mean away from . Down and away some.

          • Oh OK, so look quickly down means: “Down and away some”.

            Good luck with that.

          • Jake, it was .” Do you think it is directly below the blaze” question answer. When I first am able to see the blaze it is down and away from the blaze, not immediately below. Quickly down still apples fully, for it is still look quickly down .

            I do think your idea of snorkelling to get the chest is fun though. LoL.

          • Jake;

            Placed in a crevice & hidden with stones.

            It is wet though. A small rivulet seeps into the crevice that is hidden by stones.

            JDA

          • Possible JDA,
            What do you think the blaze may be in this situation?

            Loose rocks can be dispersed with the changing seasons when it freezes & thaws & sometimes major runoff combined with very warm temps & heavy rain.

          • Jake;

            If I were to answer your question fully, I would be declared mad and/or insane.
            So here I go to the nuthouse – – –

            I now believe that there is more than one blaze. One is a very large geographical feature. One is a waterfall, and three are carved/chiseled onto stones of various sizes. The biggest is too large to be moved by flood. The smaller ones are positioned where floods are not likely.

            Earthquakes can move most anything – boulders and/or rocks….but trust me “Forrest has thought of everything.”

            Movement by freezing and thawing – possible, but movement would be minimal, and as I said, “Forrest seems to have thought of everything.”

            This all sounds crazy, and maybe I am. If all goes well, I will probably know just how crazy I am by early next week. We shall see. JDA

          • It seems you are deviating further from what he has stated JDA.
            Multiple blazes doesn’t make any sense to me unless there are multiple treasures which I’m pretty sure there is only one F treasure.
            “Wise” is a great indicator of one blaze.

            Glad you will know soon & hope you at least take the ride to see the tribe but stress safety as you always do.

            There really is no true definition of crazy, it’s only the ones that think there not but may be.

            You may be chiseling your life workings into his & that is a no – no in my book when it comes to paralleling his life.

            Chisel your own path.

          • Is the Blaze one single object? ~ Scout Around “In a word – Yes.” f.

            Have a nice trip JDA & thanks for getting the tribe out.

          • I asked that question glad I did in a word it’s a single object hummmmmm

          • Good Q to ask & pretty straightforward answer except for “in a word”.
            I think the word is in the poem & is “wise” as an owl.

            Poor JDA is heading further down a path of uncertainty.

          • Jake;

            Each of my blazes is a single object – Forrest did not lie. There just happens to be more than one.

            Forrest also said: “Can the blaze be pre-determined by the poem or can it only be determined at the search area?” – becky
            “Becky, you are a rascal to ask that question and I have been sitting here for about fifteen minutes trying to decide what to say. Well, it has been thirty minutes now and I think I’ll pass on the question. Sorry.” f

            Why couldn’t he answer the question? Because there was more than one, and a couple could be figured out before-hand, and the rest found only at the site. Possible? We shall see. JDA

          • Hi JDA –

            “Forrest also said: “Can the blaze be pre-determined by the poem or can it only be determined at the search area?” – becky
            “Becky, you are a rascal to ask that question and I have been sitting here for about fifteen minutes trying to decide what to say. Well, it has been thirty minutes now and I think I’ll pass on the question. Sorry.” f

            I realize that you are so far into your solution that considering anything to the contrary is unlikely. While it does seem that F avoided the question, I think he gave everyone the answer just like he has with everything thing else. Until you can grasp what Forrest is conveying with his poem, you will not be able to understand his hints. I will say that this is IMO because I don’t hold the chest. I realize you will more than likely take offense to my answer but it does seem more logical than the approach you have taken.

          • I think it’s obvious the blaze can be predetermined by the poem by his delay & no answer.

          • Answering Becky’s question would have been too big a clue–especially if his answer would have been that the blaze could be pre-determined from home. Ask yourself this: if the blaze could only be solved with BOTG, what would Forrest have to lose by admitting it? Most searchers
            don’t think you can figure out the blaze without being there.

          • Jake – Uncertain only applies if you do not know with certainty where you are going…and I do. JDA

          • I’m wondering if your medication has changed.
            3 blazes is 2 too many.

            This will make 4 statements from F where you have gone the other way.

            Good luck my friend and STAY SAFE!

  56. My solve Was in NM. But I’m not liking that solve anymore. My new solve is in yellow stone by the boiling river where Montana and wyoming border meet does any one on here know this area is it safe to explore .

    • Steve, whenever water is involved, one must ALWAYS be safe. Seasons change, and so does water levels and the strength that goes with it.

      • Yeah and I’m from the city don’t know anything about rivers . think I might find a solve that leads to a golf course. Or a strip club.

        • I’m only trying to help by answering your question. It appears that perhaps by seeing for yourself what the area looks like, should you go, you’ll have your answer(s).

          • You did help. Was joking about the golf course. And strip club. But I think I’m done with this Chase it’s not ment for me but I will keep looking at dals blog just to see what happens next. Good luck to you though.

    • Not safe !!!! Forrest has warned everyone about Yellowstone he says obey the laws and stay on the paths. And remember he said the treasure is not near a human trail just a road. So that being said u would probley be where 100 people are And the open spaces your allowed to roam is around people Anywhere near the hot springs is not safe Remember the guy that just fell in pork chop gyser ouch

      • DG,
        I don’t recall or think fenn stated [in part] “just a road”
        He did say the treasure chest is not in close “proximity” of a human trail.

        Just sayin…..

    • Mr. Fenn, you said that the chest is in a safe location. Is there cellular phone reception at that location? – because to me a safe location would be one where you would be able to call for help if needed! ~J

      J,
      I don’t remember saying that the treasure is in a safe location. “Safe” is an absolute word, meaning there is no possibility for harm. So don’t you think your last sentence is oxymoronish? If you are safe, why would there be a need for a phone? Look around the world and tell me of a place that is truly safe. f

    • How can the treasure be in Yellowstone? I’ve read the books several times and the poem a hundred times. But, YNP presents legal issues that I don’t think FF wants to create. Also, people keep bringing up Brown as referencing brown trout. I don’t think HOB is talking about a fish. One thing I’m pretty sure of is that Forrest isn’t stupid.

      • Why would hoB having to do with Brown trout make Forrest stupid? In my opinion, THAT is a stupid statement Bob. I thought better of you than that. JDA

        • HI JDA,
          Thanks for the note. It just seems to me that brown trout is found all over the place out there and I’ve never heard of it being capitalized. Maybe there is a person named Brown Trout or Trout Brown but just doesn’t seem logical to me. And, I don’t see a river as absolutely necessary. A creek sounds more reasonable to me…one near a road. A creek that might spray the chest occasionally when conditions are right, or when it rains/snows.
          If I sounded mean-spirited it was a momentary impulse and not intended to offend. I don’t have anything figured out despite reading blogs for a couple of years. I recall Forrest saying something to the effect of ,(paraphrasing now), when people discover where/how the chest was hidden that people would be surprised to learn just how simple it was to find.
          The important thing to remember here is that I don’t know squat about where the loot is secreted.

          • Bob;

            This may be the quote you were thinking of: ““I said in my book that the solution will be difficult but not impossible. If it was easy anyone could do it. Whoever finds the treasure will mostly earn it with their imagination. I have done only a few things in my life that were truly planned. Hiding the treasure chest is one of them.
            And at the end, the one who finds the gold will not feel lucky, but instead, will ask himself, “What took me so long?”

            When it is found, I am sure many will be surprised…including how Brown trout plays a role. Just musin’ JDA

          • Yes, you nailed it. Thanks. I’ve researched to many Browns. It’s like Smith. There there are probably as many, if not more brown trout swimming around those areas. I just read Romona’s solve. Not sure there is a Fenn mountain in Montana. There’s a FERN Mountain…..
            What state are you thinking of, JDA?

          • Hi Bob Miller,

            There is a Fenn Mountain in Montana. It is mis-labeled as Fern Mountain on Google Maps. [Hard to believe that Google is NOT perfect, right?]

            47.2171628 -113.1245010

            I like to look up GEOGRAPHICAL names on the USGS GNIS database found here: https://geonames.usgs.gov

            A very useful tool for marrying a name to a place on a map! 🙂

            –Best regards

          • You say ‘was’ HIdden as if you know something we don’t and then you say the important tHIng is I don’t know squat. Well, which is it?

  57. When is the fake news going to do a report on how many people die in the Rockies each week that are NOT searching for the treasure?

    Looks like we better rope off the mountains in order to compensate for people who lack common sense.

    This is the world we live in today, nobody wants to be held accountable for their own actions. It is always someone else at fault.

  58. A new study shows that football fans have a higher risk for heart attack during games. Cancel the season?

  59. I know we are all sorry for the loss of lives and we hold all in our prayers. Please heed Mr. Fenn’s warnings and search safely. We city slickers especially have a lot we can learn about the mountains. That is part of the experience. There is no need to push the limits. In fact, if you put yourself in a dangerous situation, you are moving away from the treasure as Forrest has made clear. Search safely, my friends.

    • I took the survey and added this comment: In 2015 Forrest Fenn received a Proclamation from Santa Fe Mayor Gonzales for Fenn’s Thrill of the Chase and how it increased the tourist revenue in Santa Fe and northern New Mexico. I co-hosted Fennboree in Hyde State Park the past two summers. I know we handed Hyde Park a couple hundred dollars in day-use fees over the 2-days earlier this month. That does not include the camping fees or the amount of money most attendees spent on hotel rooms, food, gasoline, and souvenirs. If this is about money, someone needs to take a closer look. I bet the money coming into the State far exceeds the cost of SAR and the state and local police. Two kayakers had to be rescued in the Rio Grande Gorge last month, another guy fell out of his raft and drowned. None of these folks were Fenn treasure hunters. How much did this cost the state to rescue and recover the bodies? Do SAR and the state police plan to shut down the rafting companies and close the Rio Grande to outdoor enthusiasts? I doubt it. And how about the fishermen who have drowned in the Rio Grande over the last number of decades? Will fishing be next…none allowed in the State of New Mexico? Fenn is just an easy target for those people who don’t want to participate in the treasure hunt or those that think it’s a hoax.

      Is this what you don’t want us to put here? You may remove my comment if this is what you meant.

      • Well said Cynthia. What better place for the newly aware and influx of views do to news; are poeple going to get an objective view ,but here on this site.

      • Great comments Cynthia.

        The good of the search far outweighs the bad, and it is completely voluntary. I put in my 2 cents.

        Sorry Dal for clogging up.

      • Hi Cynthia — the comments I put on the survey dovetailed with yours:

        “In the past seven years, tens of thousands of people have collectively invested literally millions of hours trying to solve Forrest Fenn’s poem, in addition to spending millions of dollars physically traveling to prospective search locations. This has been a boon for local businesses in New Mexico, Colorado, Wyoming and Montana (and earlier Utah and Idaho when those states were still considered possibilities). All along, Mr. Fenn has been crystal clear in pointing out the beauty of nature, warning of the dangers of being in the wilderness, ruling out dangerous locations, and outlining sensible precautions that all searchers should take. That said, there is no such thing as being perfectly safe no matter where you are — the number of annual automobile deaths is evidence of that. Thousands of people have made tens of thousands of trips without incident, but yes, tragically, at least 3 and probably 4 lives have been lost in pursuit of Fenn’s treasure. In at least two of those cases, Forrest’s own warnings were not heeded.

        Having personally invested several thousand hours of my time, and multiple trips into the Rockies to test my solutions to Forrest’s poem, I would be extremely disappointed to have the hunt called off due to the tragic accidents and/or lapses in judgment of a very few. People should not be denied the opportunity to take personal responsibility for their actions.”

      • I think you are absolutely correct with your comment, way to go!!!
        PS I wish the survey included CANADA as I am an avid searcher and will continue to do so.

    • Was that the guy who has church like ATM’s that Dal met in the restaurant?

    • Ramona I’m familiar with your area. Have you checked the elevation of your spot?

    • Ramona I just checked it’s 6873.36 best I can tell, so you’re OK. That is a nice area. Your spot is about 5 miles from the campground with about a thousand feet elevation change. That’s an interesting place you’ve come up with.

    • I also made that connection with the red, green, and black mountains triangle – and I wouldn’t doubt your spot without looking, except to say that it’s REALLY up there – and would be hard to get to at 80-ish in my opinion.

      I have a similar X that is visible from google earth (made from logs) in one of my solves that that looks intentionally placed.

  60. Would Randy or Pastor Wallace want the Chase to be cancelled?
    I firmly believe they would not.

    If I lose my life on any type of outdoor adventure I promise you I don’t want that particular activity to be shut down for others. And like Forrest I don’t want to spend my last days in a hospital bed. I have already told my son to help me get lost on one last adventure rather than warehouse me in a care facility if my last days come to that.

  61. However tragic these events are; the ‘Chase’, IMO, will go on. Life happens.

    Take care of one another.

  62. The loss of Paris Wallace is a great loss indeed. I did not know the man but from what I have learned of him he was the Best kind of man a man can be. Open, loving, generous and he touched the lives of hundreds and more in so many positive ways. Being the Best kind of man a man can be, he must have enjoyed adventures and thrills as well. I would call him a good Rep of how we are meant to live on Earth. And Brave. Brave enough to get off the couch and go explore. Brave enough to Love. Brave enough to Live the Life God Gave Him! No blame, no shame. It takes a man of true Honor to live life authentically. We all have accepted that Badge. We all agreed to live our lives Bravely. We do not need experts to tell us that or to imply some moral shame. Giving those choices away to those who would keep us “safe” from LIFE (BAWAHAHAHA!) is not something I am willing to do. And nobody will ever fully know what motivates ANY OF US to do what we do except our own selves. I honor each and every individual who made the choice to be Brave.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pNfdii-r38g

  63. For anyone interested… I had this to say in response to the essay question of the survey link that Dal posted:

    ————————————————————————————————-

    There is a certain percentage of people out there in the world who do not understand the Thrill of the Chase. Those people see “hunting for treasure” as foolish, greedy, and a waste of time and resources…especially a waste for everything that gets tied up in trying to find and rescue a lost searcher. But change the lost searcher to a “missing little girl” and the circumstance to “disappeared from park or playground”, and everyone is praising both God and government that we are expending valuable resources looking for her. Never once do we question her motives for wanting to find happiness on a slide or monkey bars, or walking down a park trail, nor do we consider disallowing the parents from ever having any more children for their lack of supervision. And when her body is to be found in the high brush, an apparent target of a mountain lion, does the state police chief then call for an immediate stop to all cougar life within New Mexico? No, he would state that it is unfortunate but a natural order of life. That the cat was just doing what it needed to do to survive. Sure, they might seek revenge in tracking down that one cougar to appease the family, but that does not affect the root problem of cougars attacking children trying to find moments of happiness in those said parks and playgrounds. So, does he then tell the state to permanently shut down all parks and playgrounds? No… he does not.

    Switching back to Forrest Fenn, we look at what his treasure hunt is. He placed a gift of Hope within the Rocky Mountains. People have come from near and far trying to find their greatness…their moment of happiness. Those mountains have become our adult playground, our park. The prospect of solving a puzzle that no one on Earth could and find a hidden treasure worth millions, is at the core of everything this world has evolved from. How many people died on the Lewis and Clark expedition? That exploration of discovery, is what human beings strive for deep down. Imagine how different this world would be if Europe had forever banned all ocean travel to find new lands across the sea, due to a few lost ships? Columbus would have never come here. This nation would never be what it is today. What if Fenn’s treasure hunt is opening doors to the future that humanity cannot fully appreciate or anticipate. Sometimes, we cannot see what lies in our future because of how each of our present circumstances indirectly affects each other.

    Forrest Fenn is not responsible FOR those lost searchers, but he is responsible TO them. But in that regard, the author of this survey is responsible TO them. I am responsible TO them. Every person that was in their life, at one point or another, is responsible TO them for what has unfolded at the ending moments of their lives. We are all connected to each other by our individual actions, or even in-actions, throughout our life. Everything we do sets in motion a ripple that indirectly affects the lives of others. You cannot halt those minuscule waves from fanning out into greater reverberations, because that is the natural order of life and the pursuit of happiness of every individual who still lives today. Knowing what I know now, if I could turn back time a little more than one month, I would do everything in my power to make sure my ripples would eventually save Paris Wallace, and Mike Petersen (if he was searching as well.) But I sit here saddened by the fact that I cannot. Such is the reality of life and something I must learn to live with.

    I would ask the New Mexico State Police Chief to do something the next time he wishes to make an unwarranted request of another human being’s life and how that human decides to live it. Before speaking…walk over to the nearest lake or pond, pick up a pebble, throw it out into the water, watch the ripples expand, see the beauty that pebble’s action has created, … and quietly think.

    Iron Will… A Responsible Searcher
    ———————————————————————————————

    • Look, I’ve apologized for tossing the pebble into Ojo already, and the earthquakes have since dissipated. Could you just find it in your heart to forgive me? ~APyle

    • So well said Iron Will. The chase is such a special thing and it can take time to understand it. I don’t suspect those not in it will ever understand.

      “A gift of Hope.”

    • New Mexico State Police Chief:

      If you will…
      Savor the very real moments as offered and expressed by A Responsible Searcher.

      Oh, the places you’ll go!

    • IW ~”But change the lost searcher to a “missing little girl” and the circumstance to “disappeared from park or playground”, and everyone is praising both God and government that we are expending valuable resources looking for her.”

      I bit my tongue for almost 24 hrs after reading this. But I need to say, the comparison to a “Missing Little Girl” or “any child” from a play area or anywhere else, to “adults” that have “voluntarily involved themselves into an interest,” such as searching for lost treasure and exploring, or even hiking new areas unknown to them… is absolutely ludicrous beyond belief. And the same feelings for those who jumped in and complimented this post.

      Do you even hear what you’re actually saying???
      In one instance we have person[s] with reasoning capability. In the other Instance, a child in play, ignorant to dangers and reasoning.
      While idiotic statements from government officials about cost or man power etc. is just as stupid to complain about, ANY missing person for ANY reason… There is NO Comparison at all to a missing child alert….NONE!

      • So I’ll put aside the fact that you have a vendetta against me over the history of this site, and I will simply show you the flaw in your personality(and there are many.) ….:
        ———————————————————-
        State search and rescue crews, made up of about 1,000 volunteers, were involved in the searches in both cases. Kassetas voiced frustration Monday with having to take volunteers away from their day jobs to look for people who’ve gone on a treasure hunt that he said Fenn should put an end to. “Every time this happens, we send people out into the wilderness, taking valuable time and effort to find these individuals,” the chief said. “Those resources are better used elsewhere.” Kassetas said he plans on contacting Fenn personally to ask him to call off the hunt.
        —————————————————————–

        This is the response by the police chief that I was indirectly addressing in my survey question. You probably didn’t know that because you don’t pay enough attention to detail and as a result, do not follow things through (a perfect example of why you have never put BOTG ANYWHERE).

        …So, let’s get past it all and see what it is you’re trying to say. You, in your statement, are trying to say that my comparison of a child and adult is LUDICROUS by your words. You try to support this by saying the child had no choice and the adult did. You are so far out in “left field” on this that I pondered not responding. But the core of my being knew you needed scolding for your incompetence, so I shall continue. That little girl scenario is the same as the adult. They both desired to be there. They both VOLUNTARILY went there. And by FREAK HAPPENSTANCE, they both were taken from this world. You say the child is ignorant to the dangers, but so is the focused adventurer who is an adult.

        To be perfectly honest, your response is nothing more than a predetermined bias against one of the many people you dislike within Dal’s site. I personally find you to be a disgusting individual, and not worth a second glance in this life. But as all things of light and darkness, you shall continue to exist in this world… because there is always a shadow for you to reside in.

        The next time you decide to spew hate at a man of reason…make sure you’re ready to do battle.

        Iron Will

        • IW ~” That little girl scenario is the same as the adult. They both desired to be there. They both VOLUNTARILY went there. And by FREAK HAPPENSTANCE, they both were taken from this world. You say the child is ignorant to the dangers, but so is the focused adventurer who is an adult.”

          Why is it when someone post on a world wild open to all form, they get upset and use words like vendetta, and personal attack.. Because you don’t like their response…Example your posting that you “know for a fact” { your words } within 12′ where the chest is, not unlike others who claimed 3′ and 50′ or “know for a fact” fenn is secretly sliding information… that I also commented on, and the whining starts Seeeeeker is mean to me, BS.

          There IS a huge difference in a child at play to an adult at play… I dare say we won’t give a child the keys to a 2-3 ton vehicle, when that child has no understanding before hand the responsibility or knowledge or even the capability to understand that task.
          An adult can [ at least the adults I know… whether they follow common sense, is a whole another conversation] can use knowledge, gain knowledge, prepare for, understand the situation prior, expect the possibilities of what they want to do and why, and the possibilities of what could go wrong. The child’s mind set is to play.
          {“You say the child is ignorant to the dangers, but so is the focused adventurer who is an adult.”} Seriously?? I mean, Seriously?? An Adult can’t have focus on dangers, or possibilities because their too focused on the adventure?
          Please don’t that person drive, handle heavy equipment, own a firearm OR Especially ~baby sit the little girl at the playground.

          Again… no comparison between the two scenario’s and people. Other wise it would be perfectly fine to drop of little Billy and Sally in the back-country and say; have a good time kiddies, see you in a few day.

          You also, nicely skipped over the fact that I stated the government official’s remarks were just plain stupid as well.
          You might want to look up the word Ludicrous definition… there is no “personal attack”… I can’t help if your too skin thin to see that… Only a poor excuse when someone completely disagree with you. That is, predetermined bias.
          So If Dal feels I’m out of line { or Goofy as well } they can drop the bomb. Or e-mail me direct.

          As to the Officer who made the comment? He might want to think about new employment or revisit the oath he took to protect and serve the state, county, city, town, village, state or national park etc. ~ for tax payers who pay his salary to do JUST that.

          • If we begin to start delving into the why’s of and continue to view each event as a tragedy and pick it apart till nothing is left but an agreed upon consensus of our best guess answer to why? So to label it with some stereotype name so it can filed accordingly in our collective filing cabinet. I could turn on the channel 3 news and get all of that I can handle if I so desired. Where is the off button for this thread? ~APyle

          • If we Love the living while it is alive instead of when it’s gone and frozen in time then we would already know the answer to Why. ~APyle

      • And PLEASE remember that First Responders and Search & Rescue personnel put themselves at risk when we happy fools find ourselves in trouble out there in the wilderness.

        I’m not in favor of halting the Chase, but there’re dedicated people involved in search/rescue/recovery (and one of our daughters is one of them), not just budgets. Please appreciate what they do.

        JAKe

      • JAKe

        if S.A.R personnel didn’t wish to help citizens in distress, they simply wouldn’t volunteer in the first place.

        it’s all too easy for the PC-police to condemn any/all adventures, in the name of ‘saving human resources’
        but if we were all to comply with their overly-prudent requests, we would fall foul to limiting our own life experiences would we not?

        ..and besides, who would they enjoy rescuing if we all stayed safe in our cozy little abodes forever? 🙂

        • Wow, CuriousH. You’ve got me confused with someone else. Please re-read what I wrote, I didn’t say or suggest anything remotely like whatever it is you’re shooting at.

          JAKe

  64. my dear fellow searchers,

    my heart goes out to forrest, and to the friends and families of Pastor Wallace and of Randy, and to all in pain for any reason in this world. Empathy, sympathy, understanding, the world needs more.

    you could slip in the shower on the morning you were to go out and spend the day treasure hunting. Why take the risk of getting out of bed if you don’t want to live? Be curious, be smart, be safe, be aware, be rational, be yourself.

    No matter what happens, I have appreciated this micro community for all the years I’ve been in it. Love all around. xo.

  65. Is the Blaze one single object? ~ Scout Around “In a word – Yes.” f.

    IMO,
    this means, if you put the blaze into a word, then yes, it becomes a single object- the word you use for it..

      • So if the blaze is a “waterfall” the word “water” is in a word, so water can be a single object and therefore be the blaze. Yep, I like it. Two thumbs up.

  66. Forrest You have done a wonderful thing by creating the chase and have touched thousands of people in a very positive way. I say to the naysayers Oh you of little faith. We each live our lives and are responsible for our own decisions and yes sometimes there is a loss of life . God’s plan super seeds any of ours and what a better way to go than while doing something you enjoy and love to do. Many people lose there life driving every day we don’t see anybody stop driving . I love to do lots of things like ride my horse and my fourwheeler and go boating and lots of people have lost their lives doing all of those things but people still enjoy the freedom of choice and that should never be taken from anyone. LET’S GO TREASURE HUNTING!!!!!

  67. “If your solve is in the desert, get a new solve, and remember, much of the Rio Grande River is not in the Rocky Mountains,” Fenn wrote.. (Grand Junction article)

    That statement seems pretty profound, my question is simple, if we took a survey to express our desire to continue the search, why not take a survey of where you and I believe it rests?

    I am starting to think it is a borderline solve, 2 states, as I have been saying that the end is DRawing nigh, no place for the meek has a DEADLY ring to it.

    Eric and Jackie come to mind along with a very large bell.

    Tom T

  68. There’s an article on Fox (June 21st) that indicates that the New Mexico police chief is urging Forrest to end the chase.

    The article begins: “New Mexico police urge author who says he hid treasure to end hunt”. The story continues: “New Mexico’s top law enforcement officer is urging … The pleas from State Police Chief Pete Kassetas follows what authorities …”
    ——————————————————————————————————
    Oh how annoying. Just because it is inconvenient for the police and park personnel to investigate disappearances, doesn’t mean we need them as nannies.

    This overbearing approach by government officials makes me angry. If they want to not investigate someone’s disappearance who specifically was looking for the chest, fine. But don’t intrude into the lives of those of us who are genuinely interested, and have spent boatloads of time and energy, on this treasure hunt.

    Forrest Fenn has done nothing wrong. Virtually 100 percent of those who are searching in the field for the chest have done nothing wrong. For government people to try to manipulate Forrest Fenn’s decision-making is outrageous and arrogant.

    For Forrest Fenn to succumb to such heavy-handed pressure from government bureaucrats because a couple of searchers made stupid decisions would cause me to lose respect for Forrest Fenn, himself. Surely, he can appreciate the absurdity of calling off a search that thousands of people have enjoyed and continue to enjoy, and have invested money in, just because of the mistakes of a couple of people, and because of pressure from the overbearing government bureaucrats.

    All I can say to the N.M. state police “chief” is … GO AWAY!. Leave us alone!

    If I sound angry right now, the reader doesn’t know the half of it.

    Ken (in Texas)

    • If citizens, IMO, knew half of what’s really going on…….

      Ignorance has been bliss for a very long time……..

      God bless the U S A

      • Thank You SL,
        God Bless America and all of her freedoms. Although I support our law enforcement 100% being American I can also disagree with the state police chief and his OPINION. So in my opinion he should understand that accidents happen. No ones fault, certainly not Mr. Fenns. In our society today we do have options with virtual reality so maybe we can just stay indoors, sit in a chair all day with an electronic apparatus on our heads and play treasure hunt.
        I am deeply saddened by the news of Paris Wallace, my heart goes out to his family. I do respect him for living his life to the fullest and following his dreams. He was lucky in be an American living in America and being able to enjoy the freedoms of America.

      • Having trouble posting…error messages. But to all who are mentioned the law enforcement guy (police chief, sheriff or whatever),…
        Hope this person reads this blogs to understand just how silly his idea is.
        Sounds like he’s putting a guilt trip on Forrest. We should all sign a collective note that we are capable of taking responsibility for our own actions and absolve FF for any blame should we be reckless enough to ignore his (FF) warmings to searchers. Just my opinion but betting everyone agrees with me.

        • I agree I would sign a form that said if I go a misssing leave me be I’ll find away out or if I’m dead I’d rather be dead up in the woods than stuck in a graveyard somewhere

    • For anyone, whether government or searchers, to pressure or manipulate Forrest either way is outrageous and arrogant.

      We have no idea what Forrest and his family have been through and are now going through.

      No matter how many dolllars we’ve spent or how many hours we’ve invested, or how many searches we’ve been on, it was our choice, and if we have been true to the intent of the chase, we have had fun and made memories for ourselves and our families to cherish.

      Only Forrest can make the decision to keep it going or end it. We have no idea of the turmoil or anything of what must be going through his mind right now, because we aren’t in, and have never been in, his shoes.

      And we, as searchers, should be supportive of whatever decision he makes.

      My 2 cents…

      • Mindy it ain’t being arrogant for all of us who say don’t end the chase because of all the effort we put in it We have scrapped and save money for searches and racked our brains for hours and searched to many times to count heck yea I m gonna tell the ole coot he better not end thie chase. Just cause someone didn’t follow the rules in the chase Shouldn’t ruin it for the rest of us who do . And Forrest has dealt with more drama than this since the chase has began I’m
        Sure he is a tough ole Nut and is just fine .

      • I’m sure Forrest feels bad for the family as well all do but knows that he has no blame to bear for this. I would hope that any feelings he has would not be based on feeling at all responsible for other peoples decision making. You are right though it is his call. He started it and can stop it anytime. Let’s just hope he chooses not to.

    • For anyone, whether government or searchers, to pressure or manipulate Forrest either way is outrageous and arrogant.

      We have no idea what Forrest and his family have been through and are now going through.

      No matter how many dolllars we’ve spent or how many hours we’ve invested, or how many searches we’ve been on, it was our choice, and if we have been true to the intent of the chase, we have had fun and made memories for ourselves and our families to cherish.

      Only Forrest can make the decision to keep it going or end it. We have no idea of the turmoil or anything of what must be going through his mind right now, because we aren’t in, and have never been in, his shoes.

      And we, as searchers, should be supportive of whatever decision he makes.

      My 2 cents…

  69. Everybody submit your gps coordinates and the closest shall be notified of the location, how and when to retrieve ‘it’.
    Better naught for the thought sickens me.
    Still not as much as flat out stating legitimate, poem confirming components of a correct solve and later reading ‘a-ha’ comments by searchers.
    Advice to new comers: stay focused, entertain all whispers until discredited and collect the credible tidbits offered or unwittingly theorized by searchers of substance. Collectively there exists a correct solve within the blogs. Though i feel i have the right to speak as an authority, as many others do, this may only be my opinion.

  70. Tragic events will happen…whether censored or not. Be responsible and enjoy your freedom.
    Glenwood Springs Hanging Lake article in USA Today….overload of medical emergency calls have forced officials to consider charging a fee to access trails. Next…
    Leave Forrest Fenn alone…his heart is in the right place and most searchers can be trusted to be responsible. Let’s not be pressured into giving up another freedom that is rightly ours.
    I am canoeing part of the Potomac River today….you can bet we will be on safety alert. Be safe folks…

  71. Hi all! Sorry for any inconvenience you are experiencing with MW right now…. we are working on getting the issues resolved (caused from high traffic) and we should have it up again soon…..

    NO LOGIN will be required…. it’s just broken at the moment. 🙁

    • Hang in there, Jenny! What we sacrifice to do voluntarily turns into “real pain” in times when things break…beyond our control.

      You are appreciated. (You too, Dal)

  72. This Chase is about the thrill of solving Forrest’s poem, before all else, so who cares if he pulls the chest, really? The riddle of the poem will still be there to solve, and that is the true treasure. I say donate the chest to a good cause, and let the Chase go on. This country is all about the cash, all the time. How many of you would still be looking for Forrest’s special spot without the incentive of gold? Maybe that is the real question here…Forrest spent years crafting his riddle, that should be enough for all of us, and maybe removing the chest from the equation would help reduce the stupidity level significantly.

  73. R.I.P Paris Wallace – died in pursuit of a passion.

    (we should all be so lucky in our final fate)

  74. The Santa Fe New Mexican (newspaper) published an editorial today advocating for Forrest to end the treasure hunt…
    Let them know what you think about their position…
    http://www.santafenewmexican.com/opinion/editorials/risking-it-all-for-buried-loot/article_54c571b1-6c1c-555f-9fcf-818a46498473.html

    AND there is a story in the Grand Junction Sentinel (home of Pastor Wallace) supporting Forrest and the search…You can let them know what you think too…
    http://www.gjsentinel.com/opinion/articles/calls-to-end-treasure-hunt-follow-bad-logic

    • I think their position is spot on. There are dangers everywhere whenever you step in a car, ride a bike, walk through town, swim in a lake, swim in the ocean, hike in the mountains.

      I’ve stopped myself plenty of times while searching for the treasure. I always think … Would an 80 year old man do this? IF the answer is NO, then I don’t do it.

      I feel for those who lost their beloved Paris. But the fault does not lie with Forrest or the Treasure Hunt. There are many tragic accidents that happen. A friend of mine died while walking out to get her mail at the end of the driveway. A young teenage girl was backing out of her own driveway and hit my friend. A terrible tragedy, but we still have teen drivers.

      Paris’ loved ones will feel pain for years and I am sorry they have to go through this. My prayers and thoughts are with them.

      • The article I referred to in my comments was the Sentinel’s.

        “The Sentinel’s editorial you linked to, Dal, advocates for NOT ending the hunt.”

    • Dal, I’m reading the article that they are advocating for the treasure hunt to continue not end??

    • The Sentinel’s editorial you linked to, Dal, advocates for NOT ending the hunt.

      It’s a good one.

      JAKe

    • I’ve enjoyed reading the Grand Junction Sentinel response. Thank you. As for The Santa Fe New Mexican response, I erased what I wanted to post here.

      • Well said pdenver,
        I too found it disturbing. And also those who seem so concerned today have also been the cause of so much disruption in the past. I personally support Mr. Fenn and what ever decision he chooses to make. I am also certain that a valid solution is close at hand.

    • Dal, I have been a lurker since last year. We spent a month in the Rockies searching and have refined our search methods this past winter. We are getting ready to leave on the fifth of July for 2 months. My question is, what would happen if Forrest were not here? The treasure chest would already be wherever it is and the search would still go on with no way to stop it. I sincerely hope Mr. Fenn does not feel responsible for the two deaths, just as in the days of the goldrushes men will do things that are foolhardy, and I sincerely hope he lets the search continue (of course I have a vested interest, because I “know” I have the solve) 🙂

  75. PLEASE DO NOT END TTOTC
    Condolences to both Randy and Paris family, Both passed doing what they love or like to do. So many positives then negatives in the chase.

    Forrest Fenn should retrieve the treasure he stashed in the wilderness before anybody else dies looking for it, New Mexico’s top cop says.

    Of course the Police department want this to end, its all due to lost Revenue $ for them , but for us searchers Including Randy and Paris it is more then about the $.

  76. Great work people. I mean coming to the defense of Fenn and your fellow searcher particularly as it relates to requests to end the Chase with the words like “stop this nonsense”.

    The human race is likely headed for safety at all costs, most notably freedom. The last thing we need to do is speed things up in that direction. The words earlier in this thread by Cynthia and Iron Will amongst others are very well said in explaining examples of how a life is still worth living with risks. Maybe moreso in spite of them. And I’m not saying these risks have to be greater than that of any other activity that involves walking out your front door. Who wants to play a game that you don’t need to get of bed to win? And what do you know, we have made it to an age where one can do just that with our little game machines.
    We here in the Chase are probably the ones that get it the most. A hundred years from now they’ll look back at us as if we were all Lewis and Clark. They will say man! that looked like they had the time of their lives. Sure there were risks of being in the wilderness but what we wouldn’t give to do that! They will be in awe of our opportunity we had before we all get locked up in glass jars and put on a shelf.
    The benefits are too numerous to mention here but like Dal said: families and friends have reunited after many years with the Chase as the only reason they did. This ‘treasure hunt’ has pulled people from the brink of suicide. A ton of people have gotten a ton of exercise moving in the opposite direction of obesity. Even those who rarely get out to the Rockies, if ever, are greatly inspired by Fenn’s act of wonder. This thing is too big for any one noun or phrase like ‘treasure hunt’. The full scope of positives has even happened yet as the direction of people’s lives have been altered forever for the better.

    To the rule makers: (answer us this)
    If you had your way and this thing ends is done and over as far as the risks of hiking in the mountains…
    In consideration of the immeasurable good for the people and REVENUE your states have seen these past few years…
    If say, Forrest were to retrieve the treasure and hide it somewhere else…

    Would you like your state to be excluded from the search area?

  77. If I may, please allow me to bring a little data to the discussion concerning whether the search should or should not end based upon consideration of the associated risks and the resources required for supporting search and rescue responses.

    Here is a publication outlining rates of death and injury in the wilderness: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1304948/

    According to the above, there is a 0.26 death rate per 100,000 visits to the wilderness. There are many specific reasons for individuals visiting the wilderness, most of which could be considered “frivolous” by individuals charged with allocating first responder resources. Considering the statistic in the context of the Fenn search, there have been two deaths publicly confirmed associated with this specific wilderness related activity (I know some on here have indicated up to 4 deaths but 2 is what has been publicly confirmed). Estimates for number of searchers have been well over 100,000. It is likely a good proportion of those searchers have been out in the wilderness more than once, which brings us to the central question: is ghe fatality rate associated with searching for Fenn’s treasure significantly different from those visiting the wilderness for other reasons? I would argue, that is questionable. Up to 160 deaths occur in national parks per year and few of them receive the type of national attention the two deaths associated with the search have. Don’t get me wrong, the pain the families and friends of these two searchers have gone through is tragic and unnecessary, but so is the pain of all of the other families who have lost loved ones in the wilderness because of decisions made that underestimated the power and indifference of Mother Nature.

    In my opinion, the issue here is not how we remove reasons for individuals to visit the outdoors, it should be how we ensure individuals are educated on how to be safe while they are out there. These guidelines have been listed many times here, but apparently they cannot be reiterated enough.

    • I figured out the risk of dying on Fenn’s search is .00003%. Less than many other activities, including taking a bath.

  78. I think we can all agree that The Chase has created so much fun for a lot of people. The Chase also has increased tourism in Santa Fe and the Rocky Mountains. It has created hopes and dreams for everyone who dared to jump in. The Chase has been when one of the most fun things I’ve ever done. BUT……. at what price? What about Forrest?

    How on earth can this be fun for him? His family has been harassed. Strangers show up at his home. He is constantly asked questions. Every word he says is dissected. He has meetings that he dreads. The emails never stop. The minute anything goes wrong the authorities are right there to pressure him. The list goes on. He says he tried to think of everything with The Chase but I don’t think those things would have been on the list, I don’t think he has a crystal ball.

    My heart goes out to him. He knows how important The Chase is to a lot of people, and on the other hand, the weight of the pain The Chase had caused is just as heavy on the other hand.

    I’m not a mind reader, I don’t know what he’s thinking, I’m just imagining how I would feel and I think we should take a step back and cut him some slack. I’m not worried about me enjoying The Chase, I feel selfish for wanting it to continue, because I love it. I’m worried about, Forrest, and the hurt all of this must be causing him.

    Our hearts are in the right place, we love Forrest and we love The Chase, but maybe we should look to see what’s in his heart.

    • I agree with you. At the same time, the meaning of the Chase for Forrest is something we can’t ever really know. I, for one, believe it is personal and goes very deep.

      He, more than any of us, knows what and how much it means to how many–after all, he’s the one who gets the thousands upon thousands of grateful emails.

  79. When considering why a police chief would make a senseless comment about ending the chase I can only come to two conclusions as to why.
    1. It was based on emotion and not logic as he didn’t think it through before making that statement. Perhaps it was at an emotional press conference. Upon thinking it through he would not be able to logically make that statement. Everyone has stated the reasons why so I won’t go into that.
    2. The statement was totally political. He may be using a statement like this to sway the emotions of the public in order to gain attention. If people think he cares about others and or funds then it helps him in the eye of the public even if it is an illogical statement. He is being perceived as caring even if it is just a political ploy.

  80. I am really sorry about what happened to Pastor Paris, he was about 3 miles from my home, but 2 rafters/kayakers also drowned in that water within the last few months, they were not treasure hunters, they were just enjoying the great outdoors for the sake of enjoying the great outdoors, I never heard anybody suggest we call off rafting or getting outdoors for the summer so I don’t get why the State Police Chief weighs in on this with such prejudice.

    • Thanks for your note Mark. I live in Colorado and every year our fabulous SAR teams go out to save/search for Avalanche fatalities, rafting fatalities, mountaineering fatalities, and just lost souls. I have never once heard them complain about having to do the job that they love regardless of the situation that both expert and misguided individuals find themselves in.

      I am not certain about this, but I believe that in Colorado you may be charged a fee for SAR if you should require it. Also, I believe you can buy SAR insurance for this if you desire. Again, not sure on this point.

      Just be safe folks and remember, do not go where an 80 year man could not go…even if it means waiting for seasons and weather to facilitate your search in a safe manner.

        • Random hypothetical…say I was doing a botg and couldn’t find anyone to go with me. I don’t particularly think my solve is especially dangerous, but maybe I want to give my wife some peace of mind and there’s just enough “wilderness – anything can happen” to where I wouldn’t necessarily be opposed to it. What would be the best way to go about finding a relative stranger to perform this safety role? Finding a nearby searcher and offer them 5-10%? Would a SAR person freelance for a day (assuming you were able to get in touch with one)?

    • I agree Mark. Dozens of people drown in the Rio Grande each year but those deaths do not get national attention.
      Maybe we need to put a stop to recreational activities in and around the Rio Grande before there is another needless fatality?

      -Randawg.

      • DOZENS of recreational drownings each year on the Rio Grande?

        Your source?

        Or are you including immigration-related deaths on the Rio Grande in Texas?

        [15 is a high one-year total for all of Colorado’s rivers (2014, really big runoffs for several rivers that year). There were at least 46 recreational backcountry deaths that year in CO, including river sport, skiing, avalanche, rock-climbing, and hiking.]

        • Who said all the drownings were recreational?
          Immigrant drownings in the Rio Grande have been as high as 150 in one year. Very sad.

  81. I noticed he was a motorcycle rider. These things that bring great joy make life worth living. To live a fulfilled life in the moment that some others can only dream about from their rocking chair. My thoughts and prayers go out. Although we did not meet him, we know where he would stand. g

    • Those that knew Paris and are not searchers might find some solace in knowing the above statement to be true for so many. g

  82. Ok – not sure where to begin – but let’s start with the latest news. How many of us would stop looking if Forrest told us to – wink-wink? Kind of like abolition, don’t you think? Cats out of the bag, as they say. People are going to search until it has been found at this point and no amount of finger wagging by authorities is going to stop them.

    As I have been moving and settling into my new home these past couple of weeks, I am a good 10 to 14 days behind on the blog postings and was not aware of another searcher passing until I couldn’t get the website to respond last night. Dal informed me of the tragic loss of Pastor Paris. My thoughts and prayers go out to his family.

    I cannot believe that Dal still hasn’t seen a moose yet – PDenver beat me to the punch.

    And there has been a hearty discussion about “perspective” in this thread since I last looked here. I will confess that I am holding my cards close to my chest, as a few of you are starting to think precariously close to how I am, and I hope you don’t figure out the solution before me and then hike confidently into the wood to pick up Indulgence. (I am not ready either, as my solve is incomplete.) But I am beginning to wonder how much longer the bronze box can stay hidden from this collective?

  83. Here is a great article I saw in the WSJ today to kick off the summer solstice. https://www.wsj.com/articles/if-youre-a-kid-the-experts-want-you-to-have-a-fun-free-summer-1497998988

    I do recall Mr. Fenn stating something to the effect in answering a question about a 4 yr old being able to retrieve the TC. Yes, a 4yr old could retrieve the TC if they could lift 42 lbs, but they may need “a little” help. So 80 years old and 4 years old equally matched to find the TC. Be SAFE not foolish.

    • “Edward, thanks for the question.
      The treasure is not hidden in a dangerous place in the normal definition of the word, realizing that there probably is no place on this planet that is safe under all conditions. Bloggers have quoted me as saying that a child could walk up to the treasure. I don’t think that’s an accurate quote because a three year old girl would have a problem without some help. Remember, I was about 80 when I hid the chest, and had to make two trips.f”

      I don’t remember a comment about a 4 yr old… that would be a very strong kid to lift a 10″ sq chest @ 42lbs:
      As you said;~” Yes, a 4yr old could retrieve the TC if they could lift 42 lbs, but they may need “a little” help. So 80 years old and 4 years old equally matched to find the TC.”
      I also don’t think… a 4yr old is equally match to “find” the TC.
      If a 3 yr old would have problems… I’ma guessin a 4 yr old would be in the same boat … anyways, that is the answer to the only direct question about the subject, that I recall.

      The real point here is, If mom and dad can give a little help to a 3 yr old girl to get to the chest… the place doesn’t seem at all ‘dangerous,’ in my book.

      • What great recollection you have Seeker. I am not so fortunate currently and have difficulty remembering last week. Anyway, I knew it had to do with a Child..3 yrs, 4yrs, and the dangers involved.

        I will tell you that I have met some 5 year olds who have indeed found treasure. In fact, the greatest insightful comment I ever heard came from the mouth of a 5 yr old. You see, this particular boy was behaving badly along with his buddy. When I scolded him, his immediate reply was…”he started it”! I informed this child that he was just as gulilty as his buddy for exhibiting the same bad behavior. So he then put down his crayons, looked up at me, and said, “teacher, we are all guilty”! This from a 5 yr old! Do not underestimate the wisdom of our youth.

  84. I keep getting this error message when trying to respond to posts:

    Error establishing a database connection

    Anyone know how a techno dummy can fix it?

    Thanks

    • Bob, all the chat rooms are being bombarded past 48 hours or so….enterprise out….

  85. Bob, sorry for the trouble connecting to the site. We are getting blasted with traffic. We usually measure hits in thousands per day, now we are measuring them in thousands per hour. I’m hurrying every chance I get holding things together. Jenny posted earlier she is also getting swamped.

    Hang in there…………

  86. I didn’t see a reply button for GENESIS but he asked me a question and I don’t know if a reply went through. So, to answer you GENESIS, it’s squat. I hope you can spare a clue or two. I could use it/them.
    Thanks. JDA, I think you are one of the searchers who feels more than one blaze is in play. Could that mean BLAZING SADDLES?
    I have a 25% chance of being confident the loot is in Colorado.

    • No BLAZING SADDLES for me Bob – but a good thought.

      As I said, One is a large geographical feature, another is a waterfall, three are chiseled onto boulders of various sizes.

      JDA

      • Oh!
        I almost forgot.

        I will eat my hat if there is more than one blaze & if you & any of your tribe find the treasure at your long drawn out drama spot. 🙂

        • Jake if you eat your hat, not for JDA’s multiple blazes because that isn’t happening but for one of the other things, could you do it at Fennboree for all to watch? You could have fried pineapple pie for dessert!

        • I wouldn’t want to be responsible for your demise from eating that old “Floppy” of yours, but there are 5 blazes, and I WILL come home with Indulgence this week-end!

          If not, I am finished with my search area. Eighteen months and fourteen searches is probably enough to exhaust all possibilities in this area.

          I do have the right to change my mind, but that is where I am at the moment.

          Success, or retire. What an adventure it has been. JDA

          HMA – if I do retire, you didn’t win, I just chose to retire. If I DO come home with Indulgence, I would hope that you would be gracious. JDA

          • Good luck to you Jerry, maybe after this search you will share what your obscure ‘wood’ definition is!

          • Hi JDA –

            “HMA – if I do retire, you didn’t win, I just chose to retire. If I DO come home with Indulgence, I would hope that you would be gracious. JDA”

            Fair enough. I won’t get into the reasons why you should have the first clue nailed down because you are having fun and chasing a dream. Please report back and let us know whether you win or lose. Good luck.

          • Don’t worry JDA, you will never make me eat my hat.
            5 blazes???

            Why not 9 blazes? That would make more sense to me.

            Don’t think you will walk away from this Chase so easily.
            Rethink after you go home empty handed.
            I do think some of your ideas are good but you seem to fall off the tracks at times.

            I know you have taken pictures & possible video of your area & that’s how you came to the conclusion. Your stuck in that area & willing to twist & bend everything you see on the screen to make it work.

          • JDA, as much as I do not like to I have to agree with Jake on this one. 9 blazes do make more sense than 5 blazes. Even 24 blazes makes more sense. HMA speeks the truth too. If you do not have the first clue nailed down have a nice hike. The first is the most important!

          • Hi Jake – Give JDA some room to explore and have some fun. Lighten up and let him test his theory out. You won’t have to eat your hat just yet so calm down.

          • No prob Hma,
            I won’t grump on him until Sunday or Monday.
            I will have the pie ready.

            He’s got the room to eat his words again just like the other bakers dozen & then some.

          • JDA: best of luck this weekend! Sounds like a no-lose situation for you: you win you win, you lose, you reserve the right to return to your spot in perpetuity. I’m going on public record: if you (or your immediate family) find the chest this weekend in Wyoming, I will give you a bonus of $1000. Have at it, but please keep your safety first and foremost.

  87. As I search my thoughts on others’ post, I felt compelled to comment.
    In the blue collar working man’s world, I and many others (IMO) look for ways to remove the humdrum, monotonous, daily task our lives revolve around.
    I would rather die on an adventure of excitement and thrill rather than standing still at a stoplight or sitting in a desk chair. If I don’t know where the ledge is and fall, that’s my business. Can’t we learn to live and let live?

  88. Quick Public Service Announcement for anyone considering doing something risky because you think the Chase is going to end and this is the only opportunity you have.

    Whatever you’re thinking of doing, it’s not worth it. Here is my personal email address: jeremysdropbox@gmail.com Please give me the opportunity to talk you out of it. I don’t care where you’re searching. I won’t even ask. I’m only concerned about your personal safety and would like to work with you on considering alternatives.

    Anyone is welcome. Let’s chat.

  89. Just from looking at GE I cannot tell for sure if the areas I want to search are even walk-able due to whatever might be in the path. I have already decided that if I start walking and come to area that seems a bit too arduous or dangerous then I will know that the treasure is not that way and stop and turn around. If there are any clues that help with this chase that one should be at the top of your list.

  90. Fenngshui,

    Yes. If even only for yourself.

    You live and let live. Eventually that becomes enough.

    Life gets better for others, too.

    Honest.

  91. Santa Fehrenheit 233

    “Stop the Chase” yelled those who didn’t understand.
    He’s responsible pointed a few.
    And another day the Sun came up in the East and set in the West.
    People got up and took risks to find out what it is to live fully.

    “Burn the books” yelled those who didn’t understand.
    He’s causing harm said a few.
    And another day mothers, fathers and kids went about their busy lives.
    People got up smiling and worked, and traded goods and paid the bills.

    “Thanks a million” whispered a few who knew what it all meant.
    He’s making us more aware and intelligent said a few.
    And another day searchers found the poem for the first time.
    People shed years of heavy loads in minutes as they trekked onward to find Gold.

    Never give up on remembering who you are. Do what you must to find peace.

    23kachinas

  92. God created the Garden and the Tree, as well as Adam and the Eve. He gave them instructions and free will. Who wishes to condemn Him…? And no, I’m not comparing Forrest to God (sorry Forrest :), just making a point.

    However Forrest, I will say I think you’re xceptional for remaining the course…in my judgment anyways! Take care.

  93. I hope Forrest thinks about giving that someone who could be the closest, a chance to finish their chase because we all have put the the time and energy into this adventure and a few more hints couldn’t hurt .

    • I agree I say Forrest pics the 10 finalist and tell them to have a rat race to find it

      • I think FF already knows who is close.

        Forrest should let the chase run its course – every individual is responsible for their own safety.

      • Unfortunately, he doesn’t know everyone’s solutions, nor does everyone correspond with him. How would he know who the “10 finalist” would be?

      • I’m fine with your idea, DG! It’ll be you, me, Dal, Jake, and HMA for sure. Question is who are the other 5?

        • Zap…your predictions are amusing…but not reality. Only Fenn knows…and he ain’t talking, yet.

        • Forrest was on good morning America. He just gonna give more clues to stay away from dangerous areas He won’t end the chase I knew he wouldn’t

  94. At least he didn’t die on the couch in front of the TV with a bag of stale pork rinds and a day old pizza waiting for the light to turn green.

    May angels smile on his soul.

  95. I have spent a summer on the bottom of. Mt Antero. Back in 2009. But I am a hard country girl and my husband was a former army ranger There are places we did not venture. I got into trouble crossing what I thought was a pretty stream I misjudged how fast the water was moving and how slick the bottom was my dog mosby. Steadied me enough to make it. Another time was climbing a hill and the hill just kept coming down on me. So here are some things I learned. First always wear boots flip flops and cheap sneakers don’t cut it. No traction and glass and snakes. Always travel in pairs or let someone know where you are going. The Rocky mountains are crumbly getting a foothold anywhere is precarious. Always bring plenty of water the altitude will affect. You . Weather changes quickly lightening is dangerous and flash floods will bring rockslides I do not think the hiding place is in a dangerous spot and now that I am older and chunkier and alone I am not venturing too far off the trail.. Be safe.

    • Good advice Amanda. I to learned the hard way many times Even those Jesus looking sandles suck in a river a stick got stuck in my keen ones and that about drowned me trying to hop on one foot to get it out lol That was on the Madison in Montana And one time my sister moved a rock and 10 more fell toward our heads I feel lucky hehe I also believe the chest is easy access Got out of car didn’t cross no river maybe a creek And maybe walked up to 200 feet plopped on a log and shoved the treasure under some of the pussy willow bushes out there Hahah I hate those things best hidey spot ever tho .

  96. I had a heart attack in Jan of 2013. I was told NOT to hike high elevations…but I did! It’s 2017, my cardiologists said I could have had another heart attack and be dead by now, but…The Chase has strengthened my soul, resolution and body! He took back his warning and said, “Search all you want, it’s keeping you alive!” So, the Chase is my RX to the fountain of youth. My body aches a little more each month, it’s harder to keep my slim girlish figure and I’ve got a few grey streaks mixed in with the red…but I’m alive, having the time of my life!
    Thank you, Forrest, for helping me find the child inside that just wants to play in the Rockies and find a treasure! XO

    • Good for you, Donna! Is it ok anymore to be the boss of what we do it don’t do??? Add me to the list of people who shouldn’t be here – But here I am noodling for treasure.

    • Donna, your mind and desires far exceed your physical makeup. The more positive you stay in mind the more you can achieve physically. Keep it up and good luck!

  97. Didn’t the state of New Mexico publicly endorse and pay with tax payer money a video on YouTube titled: The Searchers-New Mexico True Stories by: VisitNewMexico, #NewMexicoTrue?….In my opinon one of the better produced videos on the search and “Tourism” videos out there..

    So, here is my question, is the state of New Mexico who once so enthusiastically endorsed the search by creating their own Tourism video on the Chase, now saying via this “State Official” Yeah, we know it was cool for us to make millions of dollars of revenue based on our own tourism video, but now were going to call it quits? Question? how many of us searchers spent money in New Mexico based on this open invitation to search for Fenns treasure, in the Land of Enchantment?

    Hey, New Mexico! Do you smell Lawsuit! (#Keep the Search Alive)…..P.S. to Fenn searchers record that video on Youtube before it is taken down, your lawyer will thank you.

  98. This is not a game. It was never set up to be a game for all to enjoy. This is a man’s treasure, and he has hidden it. He has left behind cryptic clues that could lead someone to the said treasure, should they be able to think precisely as he had when he left them. But this is not a game. That chest could remain where it is for 900 years before it is discovered. It is not the grand prize for one lucky riddle solver out there. It is history now, and there will always be those who go looking for history. People have searched for treasures all over the world, and still do. To search for anything, valuable or not, in the wild is to assume the risk of the wild. That chest has been hidden, and it should remain as it is. Don’t guilt this man into altering the past.

  99. Just my 2c on the survey
    I can attest first hand that the thrill of the chase extends much farther than these two men. There are countless people out there like myself that have used this “thrill” as motivation. Motivation to do things like make it through tough days in and out of doctor offices when sometimes you would just rather die than go through any more painful treatments. Motivation and excitement to work on our electronic gadgets together as a family instead of everyone having their attention elsewhere. Motivation to get outdoors and hike and spend time as a family outdoors, which we had never done. This chase/hunt should continue for the many people whose lives are made better each and every day. Giving people like myself hope that tomorrow will be a brighter day and that there is someone out there who inspires us to be better people in today’s world. Read The Thrill of the Chase and you will know that regardless of what you have done in your life, he has a story that will make you strive to do more. Life is far too short wasting it worrying about what COULD happen. As anyone with a heart would understand, I ache for the two men who are longer here. I would hate to think how many more would be gone though without this hunt. Men, women, and children who now live a healthier life than they did before. People who felt hopeless and depressed who are still here thanks to the silent inspiration from a stranger. And how many middle aged men like myself would be gone now from heart disease or other health/obesity related problems? I am now in the best shape I have been in 20+years and have come from wanting to end my life a year ago to wanting to make others lives better and give them hope. Why would anyone want to take that away from us? Long live the chase and all of us who dare to dream for a brighter future!

  100. All of this is great, but you can’t argue that the treasure hunt doesn’t encourage people to act in ways they wouldn’t ordinarily act. That’s good and bad, of course. If I’d tried to tell my self of ten years ago that I would be spending outrageous amounts of money and thousands of hours of thought in pursuit of a western box that I don’t need I’d have told my future self to go jump. And you can’t blame a cop for wanting to remove a perceived danger. The equation they see is simple: no hunt, no hunt related deaths…

  101. Wow! I had to view the video, twice. At first, I thought the circle was an area hit my a meteor. Then, I thought it was a nature basin. What they thought was a tree was interesting. I could see the possibility, but then I thought it was some kind of rock formation swept by the winds. It’s amazing to see what’s on this planet.

  102. If law enforcement really wanted to encourage Fenn to retrieve the treasure chest, they should have asked him quietly, privately. Causing a panic among tens of thousands of treasure hunters who suddenly think they have to rush out and get it before it’s over is irresponsible. The media coverage is making the situation more dangerous.

  103. This page is now closed to new comments and has been moved to the archive. To continue the conversation please go to the latest Odds n Ends page.

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