The Nine Clues…Part Seventy Six

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This is the place to discuss the nine clues…For instance:
What are the nine clues…
Is the first clue “Begin it where warm waters halt” ?

651 thoughts on “The Nine Clues…Part Seventy Six

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        • Hi all i would love it if someone would respond to my blogs not sure if im making it. I have been discovering knowledge now for 6 days since ff’s story was published here in england. I think i have discovered the true home of brown. I think the reason so many have struggled with this is because the answer is linked to here. I will start with what i think the 1st is about bwwwh. Could this just meen begin at the end? The last line is ref to having got the treasure, the second last has brave and in the wood. ( does anyone remember the teddy bears picnic poem if you go down to the woods today. Could this be the reason a child could solve this? I have 2 theories on this.1st this is the end and has something to do with( the man who the teddy was named after). theodore roosavelt a park or something named after him. Or something he did, roosavelt made a hunting trip to the rockies he got ill and the japanese crisis loomed he decided to cut his trip short but a big storm hit and he found him self stranded in glenwood springs. Warm waters if you folow the 70 in the canyon down you hit a town called new castle this was named after a coal mining town in england called newcastle upon tyne. This town has originally produced brown ale for a long time. (To try and put this in context for you newcastle is brown ale orn brown dog as it is refered to locally, its like referring to new york as the big apple or bourbon with kentucky). I new castle sits above the colorado river. And above the battlement mesa. This is where a man called meeker moved the native amercian indians from to white river where the town was named after him. The indians subsiquently killed him (could this have something to do with no place for the meek? The areas around newcastle contain what could be ref to the poem theres a dry creek (no paddle needed) theres waterfalls dams lakes etc( heavy loads and high water) the trought fishing is good( i believe ff discovered this place while on a fishing trip so there has to be fishing near by) .theres burning mountain (still burning today could this be something to do with blaze). New castle is 5500ft above sea level. There is a coal creek (heavy loads). South in battlement mesa . Im not sure where the link is but i believe its there, i think it needs more local knowledge on the ground with the book and a good map. One thing i know my personal journey so far has taught me more about this beautiful land and myself in 6 days than 47 years of life. The secret to cracking this code is knowledge just take the time to take it all in. ( i may or may not have the first clue stumbled on the start point by mistake . But i am convinced ive got the second clue.i believe there is too much associated with ff in the area for me to sweep it under the carpet. Thx for reading i will post more of my finds as they arrive and i hope that one day i fulfill my new ambition to visit your beautiful country for a loong stay in the future. Happy hunting regards J.

          • Broondog, that’s an interesting perspective, and “new castle” may play a part in the solution – in an oblique way – but I would guard against trying to reverse engineer any part of the poem or trajectory. You really do need to nail down where warm waters halt – with absolute conviction – before trying to solve later clues.

            All IMO. Good luck!

          • Voxpops thx for the reply. Im accutely aware that ff said dont mess with my poem. He has also stated that he rearrnged it till it was right(thats not a quote). Even without the research glenwood springs is where warm waters halt. Although i am also aware this could mean a dam or glacier the truth is you will only know you have started in the right place when the clues start to line up ff said study the map and keep reading the clues over and over again.

          • Remember that FF also said WWWH is not a dam.

            The poem tells you where to start. If you can find the info in the poem that points you to Glenwood Springs, then go for it!

          • Yes forgot ref to structures . Am i to assume then the first paragraph is a clue to the exact start point. Im thinking not only by starting somewhere can we proceed. There is no clue to the start other than wwh.we pick a spot that fits and see if we can connect the dots from there if we cant we start again. I suppose what i was trying to do was throw my idea out there in the hope that someone might run with it and find a link or know something of the area. Ive also been looking the other way to grizzly creek i am trying to find river maps with names of the points of the river named. The clues start covering a large area but at some point have got to pin point an exact location i also think that logic has to play a part. Ff is a historian native american history is second nature to him so is fishing i believe he found this location doing 1 of the 2 .

          • Hello again everyone i have a couple of questions for you all . Has ff refered to his poem as a cypher or code. Has he ever refered to the paragraphs as stanzas. And what did he actually say about the word that links it all?

          • Broondog47, I don’t remember that
            FF ever said anything about a word
            “that links it all”. He did, however,
            mention “a word that is key”. This
            suggests to me that there is a very
            important word that may help solve
            (part of) the poem.

            The above is my opinion.

          • one never knows but i think you need boots on the ground to find the answer to who and where brown is thats just my thought about what you said have a good day and keep trucking

        • Thanks, JDA. I think I did that, and my email (which I check every couple of days) is overflowing. 🙂

    • I disagree Alset, the clues as to the description of the blaze come after in the poem imo. But I agree that once you have physicals reached the blaze you will already have known or been aware (wise) of its description and at that point the solve may be complete and the end nigh. More of a last step on the path than a chronological #9 final clue I think.

      • aMp. Jake just posted the exact same clues list as me, that is my list. What comes after the last clue, the blaze, are descriptions called hints in my opinion. Begin it.( means first clue)….then “found the blaze” ( last clue) look quickly down and your quest to ( to find the chest) cease( stop, complete) .

        It’s all good to agree or disagree.

        • aMp. I should clarify: what I mean as hints after the blaze, in the poem, are hints of the area not of about the blaze. I don’t believe that anywhere in the poem describes the Blaze. For me, the Blaze description is lead to by the word that is key. Though the word that is key is in the poem.

        • I have a similar thought that another clue exists after blaze. “Cold”. In “Teachers With Ropes” Fenn talks about challenging kids in his gallery to figure out why the statue was cold even though it was in a warm room. That statue was bronze, like the TC. Well bronze is a conductor metal and will always feel colder than it’s environment. If it is cold enough outside it can even freeze skin on contact. Remember when Fenn said “best to bring gloves”? I think “your efforts will be worth the cold” is referring to carrying the cold box. I also think this is why he said “physics tells me the chest is wet”. The physics he’s referring to is the cold box collecting condensation. All IMO.

      • what is brown i have foumd lots of them even with the put ins below but what is right only one knows but the word that leads us has a different path which we must find i see it as a steping stone time is what it is t may be the begining bu the end isin it some where together is key a solve if right may deliver a box but be ware you will have to think alot i know that will be true.begin it wwwh

  1. 1 – Begin it WWWH
    2 – And take it in the canyon down
    3 – Put in below the home of Brown
    4 – From there it’s no place for the meek
    5 – The end is ever drawing nigh
    6 – There’ll be no paddle up your creek
    7 – Just heavy loads
    8 – and water high
    9 – the blaze

    Happy 4th!
    No place for the meek.

      • Would I be messing with the poem if i said the blaze is below heavy loads & water high?

        I believe the blaze is.

          • I don’t think the idea of the Blaze being lower than heavy loads and water high is messing with the poem,no imo. I mean, I don’t see any elevation criteria for the blaze in the poem. IMO.

        • I still can’t figure out if “heavy loads & waters high” is one clue or two. But I agree that I don’t think you’re messing with the poem if you assume that they are both higher up than the blaze. (I’m not saying that you are correct in this assumption, mind you.)

          • Assuming your creek is a real creek & heavy loads and water high is before the blaze in the poem, and he stated the clues are in consecutive order and contiguous, I’ve wondered if this would be messing with the order of the clues in the poem opposed to the order of the clues in the stomp?

          • Blex,

            You said: I still can’t figure out if “heavy loads & waters high” is one clue or two.

            Not meaning to nitpick, but that should be “heavy loads and water high”.

            Why is this “water”, and the other reference in the poem is to “waters”?

            What is the distinction? [food for thought]…

          • That is indeed some good food for thought, Fennatical. I never noticed the dichotomy between waters plural and water singular.

    • OMG, JAKE!
      My clue list too!
      You rock!
      Now, find it so we can all get some good sleep!

      • Thanks Donna,
        I don’t think I will find it now that it’s not under water.
        We may have the right clues in the poem but we still have to marry them to a map.

    • Re: Jake’s list of 9 clues … how conventional.

      No imagination required, no subtlety, not hard at all. Just graze the poem’s surface, take the poem at face value.

      No need to understand “meek”, no need to understand “tarry scant” or “in the wood”. If you don’t understand something in the poem just ignore it ’cause it’s not a clue. (haha)

      If Jake’s simpleton conclusion is correct, I will be very, VERY disappointed with Forrest Fenn for urging us to use our imagination, then using clues that are totally UN-imaginative.

      Given that no one has found the chest in six years, I’d say I will NOT be disappointed in FF.

      Ken (in Texas)

      • Hi Ken. I use eleven. I think the statement by ff – “there are nine clues” is actually subjective in context, and seekers who use it as being definitive are actually limiting themselves from a lot of opportunities.

      • Ken — you’ll not be disappointed by Fenn. Jake’s list is already off the rails at #3.

    • Oops.. hit return to soon.

      WWWH and Canyon down are the same clue, you somehow skipped over the word AND.

      The complete clue is:
      Begin it where warm waters halt AND take it in the canyon down, not far, but too far to walk.

      Why does everyone seem to not notice this? For years now, lol. There is only one proper way to read English, it isn’t an opinion, the grammar is proper and yet people do not properly read it?

      Note: I am not being sarcastic, I would like an hones (and valid) reason why you are incorrectly breaking “take it in the canyon down” when that is a FRAGMENT missing the SUBJECT (waters is the subject).

      I would normally say IMO, but this is not an opinion, there is only one valid way to read that sentence and since it is the first clue, it is VERY important to read it properly IMO.

      Now for the opinion part: Stanza 1 is a major clue about the destination area, without it you will not locate the proper place IMO.

      • It is a question of the two ” its’. What is the first “it” referring to and what is the second “it” referring to? This is a tale of two its’. You presume that they are one in the same ,even though “it” has not been identified in the sentence for either.

        There is no title of the poem.

        FF has said that WWWH is the first clue but he did not say the whole sentence is the first clue. IMO

        • Knowing that WWWH is the first clue and knowing that stanza one still must hold pertinent information. I’d venture its safe to assume stanza one is referring to WWWH and is a part of clue one. It gives a description of the starting place and how to go about it from there, ending at canyon down. Just a thought~

          • aMp. In short, yes, I agree with what you say here. Now the long: The first stanza says and does that but much more. Let me give a figurative concept of some ways I approch the poem- right or wrong doesn’t really matter. I view the first stanza like as being the title of the poem, the introduction and pretense of all the clues, hints and story. So, the first stanza is very important to all the clues, not just limited to the first clue. Stanzas 5 and 6 are also equally valuable to the whole of the poem clues, hints and story. Just because someone has their 9 clues doesn’t mean they are decreasing value of anything outside of their 9 clues, well for me anyways. Clues and hints no matter which they are categorized as such , require equal participation in the need of understanding. There are clues and added descriptions pertaining to the clues ( hints).

            As long as whatever one thinks is a clue or a hint are at least an actual clue or hint. They are collaborative for a complete understanding non being the less needed . Therefore, if a person has any as a clue or a hint in the wrong catagory they can still be within the right parameters. A clue is a precision to a specific something. A hint is an assistance in description to something specific or also an added description of the area or location. That is how I work it but also not limited to this thinking either- it is but one way of many.

            Clues or hints are equal in value to solve for a solve. So is every line of the poem for the means of getting to the end result.

      • WyMustIGo wrote – “. . . there is only one valid way to read that sentence . . . .”

        There are two valid ways to read that sentence. Both worth considering.

        JAKe

      • Hi Wy…you asked….
        “I would like an honest (and valid) reason why you are incorrectly breaking “take it in the canyon down” when that is a FRAGMENT missing the SUBJECT (waters is the subject).”

        Although ‘and’ is a conjunction, it is also a separate lead in to another instruction.

        For example.

        Once you have started at BIWWWH, you should already be traveling in some manner. With the ‘and’ being thrown into the construct of the words, it leads the reader….or…now tells the reader….”to take it in the canyon down.

        IMO – “it” is the path you are supposed to take to a canyon, then based upon structure again, another direction is to be taken,….”down”….South? / Below? Some direction that you are heading into the canyon seems most appropriate.

        Thoughts?

        • I agree Tim. Forrest could have told us to go up the canyon…. as he did when we get to our creek.

        • I disagree due to the punctuation.

          The first part of the stanza (based on grammar) is telling us that something begins (IT) where warm waters halt, and (IT) forces the waters to halt and (IT) takes them into the canyon down.

          A perfect example of IT (and I am not saying this is what IT is): Begin [the pipe] where warm waters halt and take [the pipe] in the canyon down.

          I think we are over complicating the poem when we should just read it and consider the punctuation. Anyone going down the canyon is not considering the punctuation.

          The lack of a comma means that the subject is halting and taking, we are not told to do anything at this point. (based completely on grammar, not my opinion).

          • As far as I can tell, the subject of the second stanza is ‘you, the reader’, not water.

          • Hi rich can i ask you to explain what a stanza is and what type of stanza the poem is written in?

          • Broondog,

            In poetry, a stanza refers to sections of lines that are arranged in a certain way with meter and/or a rhyming pattern.

            Fenn’s is a quatrain.

            Why do you ask?

          • Hi Rich.

            You wrote:
            “Fenn’s is a quatrain.”

            I agree. FF added esoterism to the infrastructure of his design.

            Good info.

          • Boondog,

            For the most part he uses Iambic tetrameter.

            He breaks his rules though in the second stanza

        • Hi All;

          For me, even though I born and raised here is the good old USA – English is a foreign language that I never really understood. Nouns, pronouns, adjectives, prepositions and gerunds are all just words to me. Words that have never made a lot of sense.

          That being said. I have to read the poem in “its” simplest form:

          Begin it (IT = your quest or journey) where warm waters halt and take it (Your self on your journey or quest) in the canyon down, Not far, but too far to walk. Period – end of sentence.

          All one thought telling you to begin your quest at the spot that warm waters halt – continuation of thought – this journey will take you down a canyon – How Far? – not far, but a distance that is too far to walk. Straight-forwards to me. Just my simple mind at work. To heck with grammar – as the old joke goes – that is what my grammar told me anyway! JDA

          • Hi jda it doesnt matter about english google learn, untill 7 days ago i hated english i hated reading ff has got me buzzing again yes this was about finding riches to solve all my probs initially but it has sent me in a different direction . Im reading im learning and to be honest i would love what you have got on your door step on mine. Ff wants evryone to embrace your heritage and enjoy what you have .

        • For the most part he uses Iambic tetrameter.

          He breaks his rules though in the second stanza

    • So you find your WWWH. Great. You took in the canyon down, putting in below the home of Brown. Outstanding. Knowing it’s no place for the meek, you draw nigh, and come to your creek…you can see the heavy loads and water high. Being wise though, could mean choosing the right direction to travel “up” the creek, as both are correct, depending on which era you choose to believe. Now, about that blaze. There has been so much speculation as to what it could be, but no one has mentioned my idea of what the blaze is (which I guess for me is good.) Happy hunting. If I can get away to check my solve, and if correct, there will be a lot of people kicking themselves due to the obviousness of it all. If I am not correct, at least I hope to enjoy myself. 🙂

      • Lyle,
        That’s it?
        Just that simple as, finding the correct wwwh and picking out the correct blaze when you get near?
        Obvious or not… where is the thinking vs. the doing? or the planning and observation involved? How do you even discover the correct first clue out of the many possibilities… where is the certainty of the path beforehand if there is still choices to take?

        “It’s not a matter of trying, it’s a matter of thinking… Sure, I mean people have figured the first couple of clues and unfortunately walked past the treasure”

        Searcher have deciphered the first two clues and walked by the remaining seven.

        You said ~ ‘Being wise though, could mean choosing the right direction to travel “up” the creek, as both are correct, depending on which era you choose to believe’… All that sounds like is a 50/50 choice. So, just out of curiosity, what “era” are you talking about? If both directions are correct.

        Maybe that obviousness is obliviousness in disguise?

        • My post was not meant to imply a lack of thinking. It was meant to imply the blaze does not require a lack of thinking. I have put in the time to get to my WWWH (“warm waters” is a legal term) and taking it into the canyon down, which leads me to the HOB, which leads down a trail, which crosses a stream, which, if traveled 200 ft, in the right direction, should lead to my blaze. People walking down the trail walk right past it.

          The era (as I believe I saw posted once before) refers to the late 1800’s, when going “down” the creek implied going against the flow. So to me, I would go one way 200 or so ft, and it I don’t see anything, I’d reverse my path and go the other way.

          What is stopping me from checking out my solves is my current location in the Middle East. However, hopefully early next summer I should have some leave saved up to travel to my location(s) to prove myself right or wrong.

          By the way, Seeker, you have a lot of nerve criticizing someone else when the majority of your posts talk about nothing, except maybe wasting 50 lines nitpicking a word to death.

      • Kyle,
        You can share your idea about the blaze here as many have done.
        I know it’s made by Mother Nature.

        • It’s Lyle, and my blaze is too unique. I will say that it is created by Mother Nature. I will also say FF confirmed it for me when he was asked if the blaze was one thing (paraphrasing) and his reply was, “in a word, yes.” Of course, I won’t know if I am right unless I get off my arse and look, but I’m pretty confident.

      • Lyle, “wise” does not relate to choosing a direction
        of travel “up” the creek. The creek is a real one, with
        nothing special or unusual about it, physically. And
        there is only one direction “up” that creek. All IMO.

        • Interesting. a creek in the West could also be seasonal, and dry during the summer.

        • How do you know what “wise” refers to? Did FF tell you or is it just your opinion?

          • Just “in my opinion”, otherwise indicated by IMO.

            FF has never specifically sent any
            messages to just me, but he is much
            more sneaky/clever than most folks
            know. Most searchers
            underestimate him. But I believe
            that he has underestimated me.

            The above is my opinion.

            Yours may differ.

        • Giggady. To me this whole thing is a problem that needs to be solved. That is the real enjoyment I am getting. Finding the treasure is the motivation. The treasure is an afterthought. Actually, if I am the fortunate soul who finds it, I’ll probably donate at least half.

    • Hi Jake, I really enjoy your ideas. What do you think of “the cold” and “the wood” being clues #8 and #9…?

      1) Where warm waters halt. IMO, this describes a river. A river that has multiple hot springs (waters) running into it.

      2) Take it (the river) in the canyon down. Specifically tells you which direction to take the river… down the canyon.

      3) Put in below the home of Brown… it’s no place for the meek. IMO, “no place for the meek” describes the home of Brown… or… describes the place you follow the creek into…

      4) The end is ever drawing nigh… the end of what…? I have my own suspicions (and they don’t include the end of the search)

      5) There’ll be no paddle up your creek. IMO, an actual creek.

      6) Heavy loads and water high.

      7) The blaze.

      8) The cold

      9) The wood

      Oh yeah, and #10… THE gold!

      Your thoughts…? Also… almost every clue is preceded by the word “THE”… which leads me to believe that “cold” and “wood” are clues…

        • The chest is most likely not in a national park, for legal reasons. I know you are not from the USA, but you might want to save some money and look into the laws here. The chances of anyone “legally” taking anything out of there are slim to none. If (I should say when) you get caught, expect jail time and heavy fines.

          The minute anything in the chest goes up for sale, it will be known where it came from. So good luck with trying to sell anything unless you are satisfied with 50k (before taxes) profit from the chest if the contents were melted down.

          The clues being in Yellowstone NP is perfectly fine, with the exeption of the final location.

          All IMO, but I based it on facts.

          • WY, It seems to me that just about anywhere the treasure is found, there will be legal ramifications. Whether it is in a National Park, National Forest, BLM, or private property… The only place it would be “clear and free” would be property owned by FF. And I don’t think FF would be inviting people to look on his land/property.

            I think FF has alluded to keeping the hiding place obscured so as not to invite legal battles.

            If I were to find the TC, I wouldn’t reveal it’s hiding place… as hard as that might be.

          • WhyMustIGo, I am from Texas, currently deployed to the Middle East. My apologies for the confusion in my earlier post.

      • Mick,
        I think all the clues are at BIWWWH all the way to the blaze.
        I see “the cold” & “the wood” as hints to help with the general area & what to expect.

        • I agree that “the cold” and “the wood” help describe the general area. But I also think that they are physical clues as well.

          What is “the cold”? Is it water? Is it air? Is it a cave? If it is water (such as in a creek) wouldn’t you have to touch the water to feel “the cold”? But the water from a creek can easily be jumped across; or may never be crossed at all. If “the cold” is air, where would you find cold air in the afternoon, during the summer? Higher elevations would provide that… but “the cold” would vary from day to day. And I’ve been at 10,000 foot elevations during the summer where the air is very warm and not cold at all. Water and air seem too variable to describe general conditions around the blaze location.

          And why did Forrest use the words “the wood” instead of “the woods”? I think he trying to give us a more specific description in relationship to the blaze…

          Time will tell. I start my search in several days. I’ll be more specific about what I found/didn’t find after I get back.

          Thanks for the feedback!

          • Good luck in your search.

            At first reading the poem, 18 months ago, cold said “Mountains” (where it is colder by a degree or two than at lower elevations) and Wood = Forest, so, look for a forest in the mountains. This is VERY general, but for me, it was a place to start. JDA

          • Ursula K. LeGuin, scifi/fantasy writer, wrote an interesting and thought-provoking book named, “The Word for World is Forest.” Good read. (Sorry, only one “R” there so prob’ly no clue. Hint, now, that might be another thing. Maybe. IMO)

    • IMO – You have left out the next line of the poem after your listed #9 clue. Without “Look quickly down, your quest to cease” you would not know what to do once you have identified the blaze. In other words, all you have found at your listed #9 is the blaze, not the TC.

      In my list (and I am a Noob) I have tied together your #1 and #2 clues as a singular clue, which then gives me the additional space to add “Look quickly down…” as my ninth clue and final instruction from FF about locating the TC.

      • Excellent point Bow! I have combined Jake’s #3 and #4 clues into one clue… “no place for the meek” describes “the Home of Brown”. At my “Home of Brown” the people living there performed brave acts.

        There are many clues/descriptions. The trick is combining the clues in an assortment of ways. Which ancillary clues further describe the “main” clues…?

        It’s one of the most intriguing parts of the puzzle IMO.

        • JDA, In my solve, the TC is lower in elevation than the WWWH. You travel longer (TFTW) down the canyon than you travel up “the creek”. I suppose “down the canyon” could be a gentle slope down… and “up the creek” could be a greater gradient. But then again, it was hidden by an 80-year-old man. I can’t imagine “up the creek” being too steep.

          In either case, you’re still above 5000+ feet… in the mountains. But I suspect the TC is below WWWH.

          • Also…

            “A wood is an area covered in trees, larger than a grove or a copse. A forest is also an area covered in trees, but it is larger than a wood. The trees in woods and forests grow thickly, and the space between them is overgrown with grasses, shrubs and underbrush. The U.S. National Vegetation Classification system differentiates them according to their densities: 25 to 60 percent of a a wood is covered by tree canopies, while 60 to 100 percent of a forest is canopied.”

          • Going back to what you said after my first post above, I am not so sure that the TC is below or lower than WWWH. My interpretation is that WWWH plus the next line describe WWWH alone and not that we necessarily have to go into the canyon…that’s just the way the halting warm waters are going. The HOB may be in the other direction if you use that perspective.

          • That is the fun of the chase – we each have our point of perspective.

            These are NOT my elevations – but as an example. Let’s say that:
            wwwh = 5,500′
            Canyon down = 5,200′
            hoB = 5000′
            Meek place = 5200′
            No paddle up your creek = 5500′
            water high = 5700′
            Blaze = 6000′
            TC = 5900′

            You get the picture. JDA

    • Greetings, all, 1st post from a lurker…

      IMO Jake et al is close on clues with

      1 – Begin it WWWH
      2 – And take it in the canyon down
      3 – Put in below the home of Brown
      4 – From there it’s no place for the meek
      5 – The end is ever drawing nigh
      6 – There’ll be no paddle up your creek
      7 – Just heavy loads
      8 – and water high
      9 – the blaze

      but I think they’re

      1 – Begin it WWWH
      2 – And take it in the canyon down
      3 – Not far, but too far to walk

      4 – Put in below the home of Brown
      5 – From there it’s no place for the meek
      6 – The end is ever drawing nigh

      7 – There’ll be no paddle up your creek
      8 – Just heavy loads and water high
      9 – If you’ve been wise and found the blaze

      IOW, after the 1st stanza, the next 9 lines verbatim are the 9 clues (in FF speak) whereby surveyor logic, lines 1-4-7 are locations, lines 2-5-8 are directions, and lines 3-6-9 are distances. Granted, the wording is less than perfect, but the gen’l scheme is interesting…

      • Can’t argue too much with the clues. To me there is a chance clue 5 is a location and it is likely that 9 is a location since the blaze is a single item. – IMO

        Thanks for sharing!

        • To date, only clue 1 has been established, and not by searchers at large, but by FF. AFAIC, the importance of establishing the 9 clues vs knowing their “finite values” (location, etc) is that FF says the clues where not present when he was a kid. So FF born in 1930, gives us a fuzzy window, maybe thru 1945 (WWII) or so, when these clues were NOT present. The bummer here is that as I recall, FF comment was not “all inclusive” in that he did not directly say that ALL 9 clues were not present. Nevertheless, let’s start with clue 1, since it’s the only clue we know for sure. If WWWH is a natural waterway, then it was present when he was a kid unless some type of natural calamity occurred since his childhood. However, WWWH could be the border of New Mexico and Colorado and the “warm waters” buzz likely a post war term (I haven’t been able to nail down when NM made this legal statute). Thus, if late enough, WWWH clue could be the NM border where this legal fishing definition did not coincide with a physical location when FF was a kid (and current NM/CO border will likely exist for another 100 yrs or so).

          Now, assuming “and take it in the canyon down” is a clue (clue 2 IMO) and that “canyon” is some sort of common canyon, we now have a major problem, since any natural canyon was probably present when FF was a kid. And if ALL 9 clues were not present when FF was a kid, we must hack stuff to make it fit…(1) maybe “canyon” is not a canyon, but also a metaphor (2) maybe canyon “clue” refers to a road that wasn’t present when FF was a kid, but that the physical geography was and would make this clue a closed loop, wink-wink/lol (3) ???

          IMO many FF comments only cloud the chase. However, some like “bring a flashlight” (it was bring, not take) does appear on a web page and I’ll add that said page “coincides” with a near perfect solve that was posted here “summer” 2015 (and sandwich ref fits all too well). I’m not sure if the poster caught this page, but I’m challenging the veteran searchers…

          tally-ho

          • Matt. I think you are confusing poem clues (which Forrest made up) with actual places in the real world (to which the clues refer). Here is the Fenn quote (from tarryscant.com):

            “The clues did not exist when I was a kid but most of the places the clues refer to did. I think they might exist in 100 years but the geography probably will change before we reach the next millennia”.

          • Matt – for your consideration. There may be another interpretation of this phrase – “The clues did not exist when I was a kid but most of the places the clues refer to did….
            IMO, the clues did not exist until the poem was written. Mr Fenn, to the best of our knowledge, wrote the poem in more recent years, when he was an older adult. The places, or most of them, have been there all along. Unless, as you say, a catastrophic event of some sort created or deleted a “place” or two. There has been quite a bit of debate regarding this phrase over the years without general consensus. Think about it. It could change everything.

          • Tom – thanks for digging out the quote, and indeed, this chase is ripe with confusion! My read is akin (1) start in a major city (2) go south on a major highway (3) for 100 miles (4) from this town (5) go east on a dirt road (6) for 10 miles, etc, whereby said 1-6 are clues only because they’re non definitive until solved. Thus, a math major would likely describe 1-6 above as 1st order clues, and any syntax describing them (and obscuring them) as 2nd order clues (maybe even hints to clues). My hangup with location-direction-distance scheme per my OP is nothing more than how surveyors work, pilots fly, and…how you give your kid directions to run out-of-town errands (specific vs random path of travel) and…likely the only way a redneck from Texas drives. If you remove direction & distance from clues, you’re left with hopscotch clues.

            Sandy – kudos, “it could change everything”. Until a lucky searcher discovers what defines a clue, I doubt TC will be discovered…

  2. Thank you for the information about Fennhaven from the previous “The Nine Clues” page, Dal. It would be nice to know where the cabins are, if those aren’t the ones. I hope wherever they are, they’re still standing.

    • It is hard to be certain about the existing cabins since there is more than one opinion.

      Forrest told several people that he believes the original cabins were sold and carted off. He has no idea who bought them or where they went. I wrote a story about a character up in the Bitterroot who believed he has a sink from one of the original cabins.
      https://dalneitzel.com/2014/04/19/the_shaft/

      Skippy and Crayton lived in those cabins for many years. Skippy had a construction outfit at the time. Crayton can remember when Forrest, Peggy, Kelly and Zoe came up and stayed in the cabins for awhile while visiting Skippy and the area. Crayton was told by Skippy that those were the original FennHaven Cabins.

      Chipper lives in the area. Hie is a nephew of Forrest’s and is confident those are the original FennHaven cabins…not all but some…and that they have been added onto and enlarged over 75 years… but that under all the facelifting are the original cabins.

      Chipper believes the cabin where the photo of Donnie and Forrest are sitting on the porch on page 68 of TTOTC is one of the cabins that is still there.

      • This is interesting, Dal. Thank you. Wouldn’t permits be needed to either move the cabins or to build on to them? Not sure if that information is possible to look up and be given to the public.

          • Gosh, I really do need to get new reading glasses. I see he’s Mr. Fenn’s cousin.

        • pd-
          Depends on when the changes were made. We are talking about the wild west and permits and regulations were late being adopted out there and once there was a permit program not always applied for, followed or enforced…county seat was 90 miles away…in Bozeman. West Yellowstone was not much of a “government” town for a long time…

          • Perhaps it falls into when Fenn Haven was sold, and at that point, one can only have a guesstimate.

          • Thank you for clarifying that for me. With Yellowstone National Park growing over the years, the families found a good business.

      • IT is currently owned by the same LLC that owns the Branding iron next door. Look at the back of the property. The building next to the L shaped building. Notice how crooked it is. IT was built prior to the smaller building along the alley c. That is the original cabin.

        • Windy City,

          Thanks for that most helpful and great information!

          Always wishing you well, and hope you’re doing ok.

          SL

  3. pdenver,

    It appears that the West Yellowstone properties we’ve discussed are owned by a family with the name of “Roberson”. (Believe it to be a family Trust, possibly founded in Texas):

    https://www.brandiniron.com/where-to-stay-in-yellowstone/

    The memories you shared about your Mother on the prior Nine Clues
    Comments thread were beautiful.

    Thank you, my friend.

    SL

  4. P.S.

    The Roberson’s actually appear to be in Property Management. ( Back to the drawing board).

    SL

    • Gosh SL, I thought for sure you were so close. You certainly got further than what I could find.

  5. Tim, as you said in previous thread. I took some pictures at my 9 clues map location from a distance before I left my first time at the site. I did some photo tech manipulation as best I could. Interesting imagery I saw at one spot. Inconclusive it is due to pixels but thought provoking to what could be the camouflage and tech there- out in the nowhere. Or it’s nothing but it looks somewhat like a picture in a SB. IMO .

    • Hello Michael. It appears there’s audio by Mr. Fenn that says WWWH is the first clue. Do you believe “As I”…Lake Isa…explains WWWH or gives direction to which canyon?

      • Hey, WY…
        I think ANY word manipulation is “messing with the poem”.
        People need to understand, each letter, word, punctuation and stanza are to be kept exactly as Fenn created it, for a reason! It’s a map. You can twist things around and expect 100% results.
        Now, if you want to read stanza 6 before one, that is you reading it, not changing it. The results may not be profitable, but hey! I read 1-6.
        Good luck in your searches! We leave for MT, WY then CO and NM on July 8th! Doing my whole year of solves in all 4 states in 3 weeks! That is, unless we find it, then no need to search the rest, will just bee-line to Forrest’s house.
        Be safe! Keep thinking!
        ¥Peace ¥
        Donna M.

        • Hi Donna — in my opinion, reading the stanzas out of order is “messing with the poem” just as much as reading lines backwards. Also, when people look up words and replace them (in their minds) with their synonyms, that too is messing with the poem. That said, I don’t think anyone will solve WWWH *without* messing with the poem in some fashion.

          • The poem is like a song a story of a man in your life in the past, present and future,. You look with your eyes and hear the sound of the poem of the words that show the hem to be followed, the poem says about the art of this Man his architecture in it espressa in poem of what he sees and saw, the different way to understand an architecture as in the moema, but the reader has to know the tone of the notes of this architecture, since each word has its tone its meaning in the history of this one Man, pore that SR FENN took in the poem and his map, his letters and joker are to help the finder find subtle words lightly expressed in his 4 letters of his stories told in them, because he tells the person that find my treasure will have studied My book my poem and will not take a step if wrong wrong until my treasure he wishes to find, more in this puzzle game SR FENN has added a unique keyword in his poem that resolves every way all the way and track to the search engine enoughFinds it in his poem, which is not easy, but I believe that with all his questions and commentary and history in his book will help facilitate your search for the gold chest, your comments your question and the answers that the searcher places found find Part of the mystery as well as some words placed subtly in your 4 cards, play wisely to find your destiny .

    • That’s pretty interesting about that lake, it is the only one that flies to both oceans, lol, the East to the Pacific (west) and the West to the East, l lol ( Atlantic) hmmmm lol

      • Is that the lake by Mirror plateau? My darn phone is too blurry to zoom where Moses is pointing from by Madison Plateau. Ugh

          • You’re welcome. Are you talking about something that looks like a stick man between Madison and Central Plateaus?

          • If you turn it sideways it looks like Moses with left arm pointing to smaller part of lake, so hear me all and list ten good! Lol just call me crazy wink, wink

          • Personally I think they are all red herrings and that the TC is outside of ynp, like historical silver Springs area only as my 4th or 5th area to check tho lol

          • Kym, I don’t think my imagination is as good as yours. Perhaps others will see what you do.

          • I have searched three areas where I thought the treasure chest was…each from different states. I know it doesn’t seem to make sense, but if one sees where everyone is searching all over the states, perhaps then they’ll understand. It’s a lot of fun.

          • Pxenver, I used to live in Santa Fe, and Colorado, but am in Florida for the time being, so, it’s gonna be harder for me to get there, but, I’m trying 🙂 I’d love to be able to buy a nice Ranch in Montana or Who. I first found this in 2012 And took an it’s driving me cray, cray, hiatus and now, it’s back on lol

          • Thanks Alset, I really liked the 21 yr old mechanic one much better. I’m gonna go find some Kleenex, have a blessed night 🙂

          • The picture you showed on the map looks like Milhouse lol, the one you said as Moses.

          • While visiting West Yellowstone last year, I was amazed. After watching different videos of Montana, I really want to do some fly fishing there. It looks like it would be a lot of fun. When I saw Hebgen Lake for the first time, my jaw dropped. It’s beautiful; more so than what I had imagined. I wasn’t disappointed in what I saw that day. I was truly happy with the adventure.

          • Hey pd…it is a lot bigger than I thought it would be. I was literally stunned at the size of it.

    • Michael — you’re not the first to think so (As I –> Isa), but even if it were a clue (and I don’t think it is), it absolutely could not be the FIRST clue. Forrest ruled that out in the radio interview that Loco dug out of the New Zealand ether.

  6. My thoughts have been this for two years…Forrest was a bomber pilot. If he’s going to indicate a location, he’s going to do so using exact GPS coordinates. I can’t shake the thought that the poem somehow indicates numerical GPS coordinates. I know he said it’s not a cipher, but if the poem is as precise as he says it is, the rather forced nature of the words must reveal a numerical relationship. I did one search using this idea and came up empty, but I can’t let it go.

    • It does seem a bit confusing. I saw there’s a phone number listed. I didn’t think about comparing what’s shown to the other telephone numbers provided in the other links.

    • The time I checked the property records (July 2015), the property at 216 Boundary (SW corner of alley C and Boundary) formerly known as Fenn Haven was owned by the same LLC that owns the Branding Iron next door. There are a lot of cars parked there in the latest GE image. Perhaps it is now an extension of the Branding Iron next door. The image also shows renovations/repairs to some of the buildings.

  7. Indiana Jones didn’t have a map and go straight to the treasure. One clue led to another clue and another place. WWWH could be in St, Louis Missouri. The beginning of Louis and Clarks expedition.

  8. 9 Clues Forrest is stated follow them in order but yet he also States that if you find the home of brown you find the treasure. Now I watched YouTube videos of Forrest interviews at one point he said there was no clues in the books that were put there intentionally just subtitle hints yet in another video he says read the book then read the poem then read the book then read the poem slowly. I read a comment a few weeks ago from a guy that offered to do the same thing for Forrest that he did for Olga Forrest response was he’d have to get ahold of lawyers and write things up and that be too much trouble he said he’d rather just ride his bike to the spot and throw it in the river High.. a few days ago I read a statement that says it’s not in the Rio Grande after the latest death it’s not under water. I believe this treasure is hidden cleverly not what everyone thinks yet I don’t have an exact spot myself. Forrest says so many strange things I heard him say he knew as he got older he might forget or the treasure is so he could always look in his tackle box for Clues to where he put it. Some of my thoughts were when he says take it in the canyon down maybe Canyon Road leading away from Santa Fe take it in like you watch and joy might be considered Scenic Highway maybe Homer Brown is a simple as UPS his love of cows a bit like Bessie there is Cow Creek that leads a nice easy walk too good fishing and lots of wild animals to view. Forrest put hair in the treasure box in a jar for his DNA all of us that look for the treasure would automatically know where the treasure came from if found why would that be in there another one of my theories is Forrest has a son from a previous fling Home of Brown might be considered the DNA place.. another theory is go to Google and use voice text and say home of brown but say it normally it comes out Homer Brown which is Hot Springs northwest of Santa Fe there are used for meditation for cancer patients in Mineral Springs. About the springs is a massive hydroelectric plant could that be considered heavy loads.. I think the starting point is to figure out where 8.25 miles north of Santa Fe starts then find out all the places above 5900 ft that are reasonable for an 80 year old man to get to my thought is always been he said with his last breath he wanted to make it to that spot to die. If you’re at that point how would you make it to Montana or Wyoming anything like that if any of my info is helped keep me in mind if you find it

    • (Second try.) You made some interesting points, but when you said the DNA could possibly tested with a son from a fling…holy cow! Perhaps the DNA would be tested in his family, such as grandchildren, nieces/nephews, cousins, etc.?

      • Forrest and his wife spent a lot of time doing things on their own Forrest had stated they vacation different places he also stated when felt it was time for him to go he wanted to go to this place and no one knew where it was after being married for all these years wouldn’t you want to rest with your wife and family Forrest might of been an art dealer in dealt with a lot of blue collar people but when you read about him in conci how he snuck around the lake in the middle of the night and flatten the tires on that limo you can’t help but to think he’s got a little redneck in him.

        • He snuck on in the middle of the night because of the injustice he and Concy were dealt. Personally speaking, I think it may have been the porcupines or raccoons who let the air out of the tires. 😉

          • Raccoons maybe. Porcupines are not smart enough. I once went to school with a raccoon. Darn critter got better grades than me…then the teacher realized it was a raccoon and shoo’d him out of the school. I saw him once, about a year later, washing a crayfish down by the river.

          • Hello aMp. The men were wearing patent leather shoes, while one of the suited men was wearing white sneakers, whom Mr. Fenn describes as the leader.

          • (Second try.) The suited men wore patent leather shoes (no color described), while one wore white sneakers, whom Mr. Fenn described as the leader. Men believed to be from Washington.

        • I don’t see f2f as the “Bill in the pasture”, that high pollutant society climbers made him out to be. If you followed that line of thinking then ALL red eckd mess around on their wives, talk about far flings! I bet you won the last vow chip throwing contest LOL jk,

    • Jason, Fenn has been very clear, and said on multiple occasions, why he put his DNA in the chest. It’s so the finder of the chest, far in the future, can find out about him. That is also why he put his autobiography in there. Fenn speaks about all the blank spots we have to deal with when looking at artifacts. We know virtually nothing about the everyday lives of the individuals that owned or used the artifact. You must have missed that video. Then again, if a future archeologist makes the assumption Fenn is a “regular” everyday guy he will have missed that boat.

      In my opinion, Fenn’s marketing plan is to make him famous twice. Now with the chase securing his legacy he will not be soon forgotten like his father was. And far into the future when someone discovers his chest. By then his autobiography and DNA sample will be far more valuable than any of the trinkets in the chest.

  9. Began your journey WWWH and take your journey in the canyon down. Your journey is not far, but to far to walk. How far?? 4 to 6 miles?? Put in below the HOB. Now from here all the clues occur in rapid succession IMO.

    MM

  10. The poem is about instructions, and these instructions are to be followed without prejudice. Most of the searchers follow their own thoughts without following the poem first, and yet they ask themselves why they are failing in this process. A searcher who pays attention to the poem , and who does not deviate from it will not ask herself, or himself what it is saying but rather will accept the clues as they are and not as she,or he would want them to be. The poem is as difficult as the searcher wants it to be but if she, or he pays attention and goes about it without any preconceived notions ,will decipher all the clues in the poem. The poem says what it says and you may think it is there to trick you but it isn’t. It is there to teach us a lesson about what we think things are in life vs reality itself. Take a step into reality and see what I see. Simplicity is the key to solving this poem but you have to get through youself first for you are your worst enemy in solving this poem and you don’t even realize it. By the way, the first clue in the poem is not where warm waters halt and I would argue my point even with Mr. Fenn. I wonder what everyone will say once he says something in the future that will seem to contradict WWWH as being the first clue in the poem.This is my opinion. RC.

    • I would love to hear that argument RC!…I would imagine it would be rather one sided…so…you probably should start without Fenn. And…just curious. Why do you always speak as though you have this all figured out, and yet there is no treasure in your possession? Nothing malicious intended…just wondering.

        • I concur Ken & JDA. RC you always seem to deliver with stern authoritarianism and absolutism. It’s off putting to us guys who tend to bounce off the curbs and touch walls with Wet Paint signs. Holding the world together with spit and chewing gum is hard work. Good luck, and peace to you.

          • RC could be right, and WWWH not the 1st clue. Back in the early days – before FF said WWWH is clue #1 – many thought that line 4 “and hint of riches new and old” screamed New Mexico. I still favor NM, especially when the logic and sequence of events surrounding this chase are considered – most NM searchers know what I mean vs most non MN searchers simply blow this off…

    • RC, are you being serious or just joking? You can argue all you like, but reality has shifted for you if you want to argue a point with the one that has hidden the treasure. We all have ideas/solves that sound really good, where everything just fits, so to come out like you’ve seen the promise land is a little stretch. I, for one, know you’re bs’ing because for the mere fact you think you can solve all the clues with just the poem. Define a clue. Define what f believes is a clue? You can’t. Makes me think you just have a general solve. You’ve been out here for awhile, never this arrogant. Sounds like frustration to me.
      I think you need to get “through” yourself first before you tackle the “I know this, I know that” position.
      This is my opinion, I reserve the right to always be wrong and confusing.

      • Charlie…unfortunately, this is his MO. All talk and no clue. Pun intended…

    • RC, you have inspired me. The poem tells it like it is; and the location of the chest is obvious if you just read the poem without prejudice.

      The chest is located in Utah, below 5000′, under an outhouse, in a cemetery. It is very clear once you realize WWWH actually is a dam and not the first clue.

      GET IN THE TRUCK LUCY! We have to beat RC to the chest.

      • I still say the whole set of clues is about a waterfall. The blaze is the sun on the spray at the bottom of the waterfall.

        • JCR, I had thought that once too, or in a cave behind one like in Last of the Mohicans, in Blackfoot country.
          The Blackfoot call the rainbow, ” the ‘ole man’s fishing line” , then I went to Brown’s hole from there

        • Jay C R,
          So, following the clues, means we can only find the chest on a sunny day?

          It’s not like haven’t thought of a shadow effect, or a certain time of year must be understood. Solstice alignment etc.
          But I always ask myself… is that a misrepresentation to; If you’ve been wise and ‘found’ the blaze, as the blaze being the sun itself?

          I would think fenn wouldn’t have used “found” in this manner, and more the word discover… as meaning how the sun works and not just looking at it as ~ found. especially when fenn has given an example of found vs. discover when he came across[found] bone in the dig site… he found them, but didn’t discover [know] they were human bones. line of thinking. If we need to use sunlight for reflection of water vapor in the air… I think we would need to ‘discover’ the knowledge of using the blaze [ the sun ] as as a marker / pointer.

          What do you think?

    • Let me save some of you some time: (read ALL THE WAY BEFORE COMMENTING). I saw a guiser that made me stop (halt), so that must be WWWH. There was a canyon nearby, and an old map told me some guy named Bart Brown lived there once (although there is nothing but trees and shrubbery), so I go down into the canyon below Brown’s homestead. Now, how far to walk to this place from WWWH? For that, I calculated the amount of weight FF may have lost in Vietnam, let’s say 20 lbs, multiplied that by his age when he hid the TC, and after accounting for the elevation, I figured the HOB was located 3.27 miles. So anyway, I walked down into the canyon, following an dry creek bed, until I saw some heavy power line (heavy loads/lodes) and a lake (water high). If you then start a small fire to cook, you will, of course, see the blaze. I looked straight down, didn’t see the TC, and have determined it doesn’t exist, because my solve is solid. Now, if your solve looks something like this, STOP!! You are better off doing something else with your time, like calculating the area of clouds.

      • I have seen too many blogs with “solves” far more ludicrous than that where the search concludes the TC doesn’t exist. I don’t know whether to laugh or cry, but I figured the majority of folks reading these feeds are serious about finding the TC, or are having fun, and I wanted to do my part to keep them on the right track. I appreciate the kind words.

  11. IMHO: For what it is worth. You have to separate what Fenn’ says
    he did versus what he says the searcher has to do.
    Fenn said that you had to know where to begin. Did he mean location in looking for the treasure
    or the arrangement of the clues in the poem.
    Like starting with lines 21 and 23 and then go to line 5 and so on in order.

    Line 5: Begin it where warm waters halt. I have not a clue other then
    warm is above 32 degrees F and Below 212 degrees F
    Fenn said the treasure was above 5000 feet so water then boils at about 200 degrees F.
    So if water is ice it is no longer warm; and if it is boiling it is converting to a gas (steam) and is no longer warm water.
    Correct me if I am wrong; the northern part of New Mexico is full of hot springs?
    So taking the temperatures into consideration that sounds like the pools in a spa.
    Warm waters would halt there in one of the spa pools.

    • John, it’s refreshing (and SHOCKING!) to see that somebody
      apparently knows what “halt” actually means!! Good luck
      in your solving and searching. All IMO.

  12. Would somebody please buy the proper equipment like a drone equipped with GPS and heat sinking camera, as soon as the sun goes down the drone can cover many grids in minutes, making this search faster and easier . The box and the treasure will retain the heat of the day through the night and the drone will pinpoint it a lot faster than stumbling around the country side. Remember F wanted the family off the couch and out of the house, he also was no spring chicken and carried this by himself. His wife didn’t even know he was gone. Don’t overestimate yourself I think it is in New Mexico not to far away. Good luck to all!

    • Hi Robert — that’s probably not going to work for a couple reasons. One: Forrest likely obscured the chest with something: rocks, a flagstone, what-have-you. It’s not going to be sitting out in the open. Two: it’s probably surrounded by trees, complicating any drone-based grid search; it’s not in a desert.

    • Robert,
      Drones will not help.
      Look it up what F stated.
      Nice thinking though otherwise.

    • Robert,

      I disagree for a few reasons:

      1) The chest is very likely below rocks or stuffed into a crevece of rocks. So it is out of sight from above.
      2) Based on #1, the chest will be in the shade and the rocks will heat up more than the chest, so your heat detection will pick up nothing but millions of rocks.
      3) It is probably not in New Mexico based on what Forrest said in the video I am going to link (Go to 34:45)

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=EsTdZRwnydw#t=2082

      When he says to the lady “Do you have an airplane?” he pretty much rules out NM and at the same time answers why the boy from TX can’t get there. Again, they are in New Mexico, so why would they need a plane?

      Feel free to keep looking there tough, I could be wrong, or it means I have one less person to worry about! hehe

  13. Jake, Seeker, and others,
    My 9 clues (“if followed precisely”), and (briefly) why…

    Begin it WWWH And take it in the canyon down,
    Not far, but too far to walk.
    Put in below the home of Brown.
    From there it’s no place for the meek,
    The end is ever drawing nigh;
    There’ll be no paddle up your creek,
    Just heavy loads and water high.
    If you’ve been wise and found the blaze,
    Look quickly down,

    Nine phrases in the poem, separated by punctuation, each pointing the way, with a dozen or so hints in the other lines in the poem that can help searchers to understand the clues. Still, at best, it could be a long, recursive search, as theories are tested and rejected.
    (Of course, our next visit to the Rockies could lead to “revisions”.)
    Safe searching, everyone!
    Geoff
    “Have flashlight, will travel”

  14. These are the 9 clues:

    The 9 sentences in the poem. When the searcher has deciphered the poem she, or he will know(in theory)that that’s the only way the poem works. The blaze is of no consequence much less WWWH once the searcher has deciphered the poem from home.

    Searchers tend to play much with their imagination not realizing the answers are right there in front of them. Like a boxer going into the ring facing an opponent who has not lost and thinking she, or he can’t beat them. That’s how most searchers see this poem like an unbeatable beast, but I am here to tell you the poem is solvable, and beatable. You don’t even need a map. Of course you want to have a map but you do not need it.

    Let’s go back to talking about WWWH about being the first clue. The only way I see this as being the first clue is to help the searcher find the blaze but as I said before the blaze is rather unimportant once you figure out the poem.
    You cannot realize you have found WWWH without this first clue, and you will probably be lost if you think you do. You have all the ingredients put them all together in your mixing bowl and work that cake batter. The poem does not work if you think of it as a bunch of single separated units but rather as unbreakable chain links,working in harmony, and if you break one link you will be lost in thought and space.

    The poem is a work of grammatical English art, a Mozart , a Michaelangelo ,and if you fail to see this you will surely fail at following it much less deciphering it.
    This is my opinion.RC

    • As with the brilliance of any proposed solution, I submit that the brilliance of the poem itself is dependent on one thing only – find the chest, and only then can we decide how brilliant the solution and the poem are.

      JAKe

      • THANK YOU. So many people are so quick to assume that they know exactly how the poem works, but they still haven’t found the chest. As of right now, there is only one person in the world that knows how “brilliant” or simple the poem actually is. Personally, I think that it is a lot simpler than most are assuming.

    • Good luck, RC. You’re gonna need a LOT of it to find the TC.
      All IMO.

    • Folks, welcome to the ongoing RC lecture tour, where we are instructed on how we are all a bunch of idiots. I stopped tuning in a long time ago.

      One person has correctly mentioned what the nine clues are, but I don’t think she realized it at the time. RC, in addition to being wrong about the nine clues, is wrong about almost everything else.

      This is my opinion. Spoon

    • RC,
      Here, Here! Well said.
      Don’t let the blog police spoil your excitement.
      Mr Fenn said this is supposed to be fun.

    • Thanks SL,
      I don’t know who’s following who here but as we leap frog through life my thoughts are comforted in knowing that around each corner there is a new treasure to be discovered. Life is good knowing your just hanging around the corner. I most enjoyed the links which connected more than just a few dots.

    • Thank you for the link, SL. This morning, I’ve been making little connections with this link and other things mentioned in scrapbooks, but don’t know if I’m going down a rabbit’s hole. Going to do a little more research and looking for a little more detailed map.

  15. I find it funny that some people get upset when I post my thoughts on this blog even though I do not it on purpose. I would like to clarify that every one is entitled to their opinions about anybody’s posts. I am not here to lecture anybody about anything . I express my thoghts just as anyone in this blog,and I do not intend to be popular, or even politically correct. I post not so you’ll like what I have to say but rather offer a different thought process that follows the poem exactly. No I do not follow my thoghts but listen to what the poem is conveying to me and I just listen.

    As I have said before the first stanza is the most important clue in the poem. WWWH takes a secondary place once the blaze is found,and you cannot find the WWWH without finding the first clue. This is what the poem is telling me,and this is my opinion until I can prove otherwise.RC.

    • RC,
      Your opinion is as important as mine, ok mine doesn’t count, but something you said lit a spark, I think it was Mozart. Which is why I noted “the Saint Bernard”? Then SL caught wind and dazzled us with an introduction to the Lorienne Cross, which was beautiful. My point is, agree or disagree, we all have an opinion which leads to other opinions. Thanks for posting your thoughts and this is in my opinion.

    • You’re entitled to your opinion, RC. It’s when you tell us all how we’re doing it all wrong – that’s called condescension – which entitles me to resent your remarks. And I do, as do many others on this forum. And you’re right, condescension never makes one popular.

    • RC,
      I’m probably the most non-politically correct person here.
      A spade is a spade, a screw is a screw, a nail gets hit with a hammer…
      You say; ‘WWWH takes a secondary place once the blaze is found,and you cannot find the WWWH ***without finding the first clue.’*** Then follow it with*** ‘ that’s your opinion.
      OK great! BUT you never explain why? Never give a plausible thought about a thought… or opinion.

      I find it funny that you find it funny that “some people” get upset when you post your thoughts. How can anyone get upset when you haven’t explained, given your thoughts any details, for us to understand or even attempt to discuss your thoughts. ~ ‘I post not so you’ll like what I have to say but rather offer a different thought process that follows the poem exactly.’…
      What process are you talking about??? Einstein couldn’t equate a logical theory out of your post, especially when fenn is on record saying wwh is actually “the first clue”

      ~ ‘The blaze is of no consequence much less WWWH once the searcher has deciphered the poem from home.’
      ~ ‘That’s how most searchers see this poem like an unbeatable beast, but I am here to tell you the poem is solvable, and beatable. You don’t even need a map.
      ~ ‘Let’s go back to talking about WWWH about being the first clue. The only way I see this as being the first clue is to help the searcher find the blaze but as I said before the blaze is rather unimportant once you figure out the poem.
      ~ ‘You cannot realize you have found WWWH without this first clue, and you will probably be lost if you think you do.
      ~ ‘The poem is a work of grammatical English art, a Mozart , a Michaelangelo ,and if you fail to see this you will surely fail at following it much less deciphering it.’

      It would be ‘funny to me’ if anyone could decipher what the heck your saying…. It’s a bit insulting that you say; ‘I am not here to lecture anybody about anything.’… with these types of posting.

      • Warm waters is a naval term for water that never freezes and allows access all the time if we are looking for a halt could we be looking at somewhere that remains frozen?

  16. RC, I think you have some useful insights, but I would offer the following as a slightly different perspective.

    Imagination coupled with hints in the poem is key to gaining an initial toehold.

    The big picture is vital before the “miniature” comes into play.

    Ignoring any word is folly. They are ALL significant.

    Although you could (theoretically) find the treasure using only a fraction of the poem’s twenty-four lines, it is so unlikely as to be almost inconceivable. (Paradoxically, this does not contradict the notion that you should not discount any words.)

    The poem is structured in such a way that you need to complete all the stages before you will be clearly able to recognize the hiding place. (That may be why you shouldn’t expect to carry it home in one trip.)

    Most people underestimate the scale of the “big picture.” In my own case, this is why it’s taken me four years waging a war of attrition against the poem’s dramatic geographical sweep. I have had to learn to be precise, to focus, but be open-minded at the same time, and to keep going no matter how ridiculously never-ending the trail seems to be.

    Of course these are all opinions, but I do believe I now have sufficient evidence to support my thesis. Time will tell…

  17. Broondog, I’ll reply to you down here, as the columns get too narrow otherwise.

    “Yes forgot ref to structures”
    If I recall correctly, the only FF reference to “structures” is with regard to the hiding place. He has not said that when referring to WWWH, just that WWWH is specifically not at a dam

    “Am i to assume then the first paragraph is a clue to the exact start point.”
    Yes (maybe more of a hint), but that’s not the only clue or hint in the poem to help you with WWWH.

    “.we pick a spot that fits and see if we can connect the dots from there if we cant we start again.”
    That’s how I started to attempt to solve the poem. I soon threw that method out the window when I realized it was like throwing darts at a map.

    ” i also think that logic has to play a part.”
    Absolutely!

    “Ff is a historian native american history is second nature to him so is fishing i believe he found this location doing 1 of the 2 .”
    That may be so, but I don’t think history will help you much with the solution. Also, trying to guess what FF might or might not have done could lead you astray. I’d stick with trying to solve the clues in the poem. They are very precise! (IMO, of course.)

    • Definateley ive been looking meanings of words in the poem like halt. This doesnt necsarily mean stop it could be slows or collects etc spanish trastlations brown being maron or french bruin also looking into the right map. Waterways pioneer trade routes . And navajo language. Ive got you and fully understand the task. Im definately not in the position to search physically . So will share my thoughts found an article ref a beauty spot close to glenwood it said marvel at mother nature.

    • Maybe you should reconsider your first method! Fenn did say “look at the big picture. There are no shortcuts.” Yes it’s very time consuming but he didn’t intend for it to be found easily. In the military there’s a saying “take the hard right over the easy wrong”. It applies here, I think.

    • voxpops, you are very clever. I salute you (pun intended).

      And I like your “pen name”. In fact, I like 3 of them so far.

      This should be over soon. You’re not the only clever one.

      All IMO.

      • tighterfocus, thank you for the flattering words, but if I really was clever, this would have been over by now. There are others in the Chase who are far smarter than me. I have been slow to adjust in my searches and only in the last few weeks have I made the necessary final connection (I hope!).

        I feel sure that there are a few others out there who are close competitors (and probably have a distinct advantage if they live in the US), and I would not be surprised if you are right up there at the top. Good luck to you!

  18. Make sure to visit Doc Holidays grave in Glenwood. Its a bit of a hike up to the graveyard but kind of cool if you are into that stuff.

  19. Searchers do not get impatient with anybody’s postings for anything posted in the blog is an opinion. Nothing is factual except the poem and what Forrest says, if you can understand it.
    I don’t not think anybody can solve a problem without having all, or most of the evidence. That being said the evidence in the poem starts with the first stanza. The secondary evidence (which to me is WWWH ) if you use logic, follows the first stanza. If the searcher starts in the second stanza she, or he will have skipped the first stanza, and started somewhere far from the beginning.

    Like I said before the poem is a piece of art that gets underestimated by most searchers and just because you see the waters, and canyon words you think those things are part of the solution.

    The searcher must look beyond what she,or he sees and follow the poem strictly and once they do that they will see the answers to what they seek. Most searchers have a predisposed idea as to what the poem says so they go with their gut, and fail to understand it. There is nothing vague about the poem. It is mathematical problem that calls for the basic solution. You will not need to use your imagination to solve the poem but facts. And these facts will get you the confidence, and affirmation you need to solve this riddle called poem. Remember the poem is as difficult as you make it out to be. The wizard of Oz is just behind the curtain do you want to meet him, or do you want to continue in believing in fairy tales?This is my opinion.RC

    • RC;

      You appear to be immune to criticism, regardless of from whom it is offered. To me this represents nothing but pure egotism. You, and only you KNOW how to read and understand what Forrest has written. This is an affront and insult to all of the searchers on and off of this blog who have dedicated time, effort and money to try and solve this magical riddle that Forrest has presented us with.

      IF, and that is a monumental “IF” you were to ever offer anything, anything at all, that would back up your assertions, I (for one) would at least give your posts SOME consideration. As it is, I have a great degree of difficulty even clicking on one of your posts, when I see “RC” is the author. I know beforehand what you are going to say, because you read from a single script that SAYS NOTHING. Jibberish about the fact that you and only you know how to read and understand the poem. What is lacking is substance. Tell us HOW to read the poem – if in fact we are reading it wrong.

      Telling a motorist that he or she is on the wrong road is of NO HELP what so ever, if you don’t tell him or her how to get onto the correct road. Now not only are they lost, they are confused, perplexed and MAD!

      You “appear” to be reasonable intelligent, and yet you fail to alter, in even the slightest way, your approach to your posts, despite many, many bloggers attempting to tell you how your posts come across.

      Most of us here honestly want to help fellow bloggers. I know that that is what I try to do.

      I do NOT expect that what I have said will affect, in the slightest, your approach…but I can now say that I have, at least, given it one last try.

      I will read one more post from you, in hopes of seeing something that will indicate that you have at least read, if not comprehended what I have offered. If not, I will never again waste my time by reading one of your posts.

      Have a good life RC. I won’t wish you well in the search, because your thought processes are so egotistical and ill founded and formed, that there is NO chance, in my humble opinion, that you will EVER find Forrest’s Indulgence. JDA

      • JD, RC is giving some really good information. I think there are few that view the poem as such. I see it very much the same. It is an artistic poem and a very much a riddle. The first stanza helps with finding the correct WWWH to start from. Take the good info from RC’s post and use it to help you and you will be better off for it.

      • JDA. There probably will be only about three truthful books worth reading pertaining to the chase, two are already written. The third is yet unknown but there are plenty of potential writers; some authors will probably have written theirs prematurely. I see four categories and only one is of an opinion.

        The wise usually judge the least and are most polite. IMO .

        Cheers to you, JDA.

  20. I haven’t dropped a bomb for a long time. Here we go. There are more than 9 clues. Don’t you just hate that? Of course as always, my opinion.

    • I agree iceman if there are 9 clues in the poem and the map and the word that links them all. Are we also to assume that we throw a dart at a map thinking we are right with a spring or glacier etc. Yes i think theres more than 9 things to help with the solution we have ffs additionals. But i also believe as ff said a good map the poem and the book is all you need. Refer to map and book study go back to both you will find the answer. This tells me that you dont have to mathimatically anylise. Your quest should be for knowledge and understanding your heritage your culture and more importantly yourself. I live in england and i wish i had on my doorstep what you have on yours embrace it that is what ff wants. My hand on heart if i was able to physically search for the treasure and find it i would give it back to forrest keeping 1 gold coin with a story to tell and show my children they are my most treasured things its up to me to inspire them,.

      • Dog –
        You’re making this way too complicated. Figure out your way to the gold. Then count how many clues you have. That’s it.

        • Hey for me this is not about the so called gold, greed does not define my motives i merely ask questions share opinion and discover .

        • Ffs been quite spcific . 9 clues in the poem 1 word that links everything. And then you have all the additional clues.

          • Where did Forrest say anything about
            1 word that links everything?

            People are concerned about “a word
            that is key”. Some folks appear to
            believe that it will help unlock more
            than one clue in the poem. In my
            opinion, only one clue is helped by the
            “word that is key”. All IMO.

          • Sort of thx tighter focus your the first person who has acknowledged that particular blog . As you maybe aware im quite new to this what im trying to find out is what ff actually said ref the map , the poem, the book and the word that links it all im after the specific quotes by ff. I was looking at stanza what it meant etc. I have realised i like other people are overthinking this. I have a new theory which is so simple a child could solve it ffs exact words could help. I think the poem and the map are one and the same.ff likes to play with words what if he wasnt just playing with words but the whole map? What if the poem was indeed the map and the words within it apart from begin and gold(start and finish) actually meant anything. Yes there are 9 clues in it, but what if line by line they needed a third dimension? I know that sounds deep and over thought trust me its not. All im after is ffs exact quotes on the above. Did he actually state the clues start with begin and end with gold? Facts please people. I have stated before im in no position to physically search myself i will share everything once i feel i have something to offer.

          • Hey all lets have a bit of fun here is a riddle/ play on words etc. Take the letters in “new door” to create one word there is only one answer. Remember this is just for fun.

          • Jbl and its beautifully simple we are the ones who make ffs poem so difficult what did he actually say (quote ref book, poem, map.

          • Broondog,
            While the poem is a map as fenn stated. The references of using a good map states; GE [Google Earth] “and/or” a good map. Which seems to imply something useful to use, then just thinking a good map is the poem only.

            As well as; a map is a map, the more detailed a map the better, if you have the “right map”

            And some searchers are in tight focus of a word that is key.

            Those key words should be enough for you to do a little searching for the full quotes… or I suggest… Looking at the thread [ books by searchers ] for “Chasing Words of Forrest Fenn by JCM.” He has collected years of Q&A’s, Comments, Interviews, ff’s blog postings, recordings and videos, media reporting etc. and adds more as information comes out.

            As far as all the rest… 9 clues, 9 lines, 9 sentences, ‘Did he actually state with begin and end with gold? Facts please people.’
            Your going to need to do a lot of ketchup… this blog as so much information to learn from that will help with those inquiries… You’ll just need to weed through all the… well, weeds.

    • Sorry Iceman…not a “bomb”…I’ve spoken of “eleven clues” for some time now.

      Good luck to you and your quest.

      Cheers!

  21. Based on our interpretation of the clues,
    We spent 5 hours searching Little Chasm Falls.
    We found the blaze in the tree and the wise owl in the rock formation.
    Even used a metal detecter underwater.
    Conclusion:
    We were wrong.
    Someone beat us to it and is being quiet.
    Or (It) the treasure never existed.
    Flight from Newark to Denver to Albuquerque.
    Drove to Santa Fe.
    Spent two days at the Little Chasm Falls.
    Lots of Photos
    Went to Fenn’s home. Little Chasm Falls Trailhead is about 15 miles from his home. Room for about 5 cars at the trailhead.
    Got there 7:30am second day for a parking space.
    Nice trip with my son-in-law

    Maybe we can recoup the costs and make money writing an adventure book called:
    “Bill and Dad’s Excellent Adventure” LOL

    • Dude –
      It’s not even in New Mexico. You can take that to the bank. My opinion.

  22. There are nine clues in the poem – the rest are hints. The great mystery of the number nine….

    • The number “9” is a number associated to magic and the occult.

      Many searchers subscribe to the camp that there isn’t any esoterism involved within the construction of the poem.

      I personally disagree. Shoot, you mention the “mystery of the 9s”….which is a direct reflection upon Numerology and Astology.

      In fact…..Here are a couple of associations that one could tie into FF’s life….

      http://mysticalnumbers.com/number-9/
      – Nine is the number of magic.
      – Nine is a sacred number.
      – In the Tarot – nine is the card of the Hermit.
      – The Hermit symbolizes self-examination and refection.

      As one can see, this level of “spirituality”…although not associated to Native American mythology, exclusively, it still appears to be connected within the poem….considering it is a “sacred” number.
      – I.e. Hebrews us the number 72 repeatedly. Add 7+2 together and you arrive at 9.

      One could envision FF imagining himself as a creator of a new world, using the mystical as part of his product. Riddles have always been a part of the occult, just so the religious sect could not/would not decipher what their true meanings are/were. As time has shown us, there are many mysteries involved within the occult that are still not deciphered.

      This could be why FF hopes this secret will last 1000 years. It could.

      Good luck to you.

      Cheers!

      • There is nothing special about 9. Forrest does seem to like 50 and 23, but 9? Not so much.

  23. The Blevins Brothers foundary lost the number nine stamp so date stamps stopped including that number….

  24. When I look at the marks on my map, I can see that there are exactly nine clues (that “will point you toward the treasure chest”); in addition, there are many hints, both in the poem and elsewhere in TTOTC, as well as other places.
    Safe searching everyone, especially during the hot weather!
    Geoff
    “Have flashlight, will travel”

  25. Searchers keep ignoring the connection between the clues. If you find no clear connection between all the clues you must have the wrong solution. The clues are what the poem says and not what you say they are. It is in that split second between what you read and what you think you are reading that makes the difference between reality, and fiction.

    If door number one leads to reality, why do all choose fantasy? Is fiction more interesting than actuality? Or do we like to listen more to ourselves than the poem? If the poem holds the key to solving the place where the treasure is, why do we ignore it so much? This is my opinion.RC

    • RC: how anyone reads the poem is UNAVOIDABLY biased by their own life experiences. There is no objective “what the poem says”; if you think otherwise, then it is you who is deluding himself. Words are an abstraction — a shadow of the truth. A poem is all the more so. To believe that Forrest’s poem has only one unique, pure, unbiased interpretation is utter folly.

    • There is not only a clear connection between the clues, but the connection itself is vital to the final solution, IMO. In other words, you not only need the answers to the clues, but also the way they interconnect. Everything has an immediate and a future function.

      What I find odd is that some people expect to be able to spend a few hours locating a suitable WWWH that seems to be within striking distance of a suitable Brown, take a trip to discover a blaze – and pick up a million bucks. It is so infinitely more involved than that. When FF states that the winner will have earned it, he’s talking about mental hard labor – and possibly years of it!

      There are twists and turns along the way, discoveries to be made, patterns to uncover, and obstacles to trip up the unwary. This is one gigantic, multi-dimensional game that is designed to test you to the limit! Don’t be fooled by the words “straight forward,” that is only applicable in one limited sense.

      But if you want to keep it simple, start with the three Rs. There is no calculus or Latin declension required, but you do need to remember some of what you learned at grade school!

      • Indeed. A gigantic multi dimensional puzzle. It most certainly is that and more. I’ve experienced nothing quite like it. Any serious attempt to solve it will require the willingness and commitment and desire to go on the journey. And to keep going since it requires evolutions in thinking which won’t happen on a single trip. It is a journey of discovery that likely will take years with no guarantee of reaching the end. I’m eager for my next trip though I do not precisely know when that will be. Hopefully I get one more try this year. It’s certainly been an evolving mind bender for me. A brilliant masterpiece. I feel blessed simply to have been able to participate. Thank you Forrest for creating something so amazing for us all to enjoy and thank you for allowing it to continue.

        • Dampenedmyth, your phrase “evolutions in thinking” is so apt! Even though you need to hold onto the core fundamentals, new imagination, readjustment, and letting go of past assumptions need to happen at every major “node” in the journey. Along the way I have discovered just how inflexible and set in my ways I have become, and have had to relearn the art of “blue sky” thinking.

          As you say, it is a “brilliant masterpiece,” and it requires the player to become the master mason, building the edifice from the plans crafted by Forrest Fenn, and thereby realizing his vision.

          For me, there is (hopefully) only one more stone to place. The building is almost complete. I’m trying to scrape together the funds and goodwill needed for that final push. Whatever happens, it’s been a heck if a ride! If you make it there first, I congratulate you heartily – you will have earned it!

      • ~ The solve is difficult for many searchers because their minds think the clues are tougher to decrypt than they really are.
        Some say they are trying to think outside the box, as if the solution lies somewhere out there.
        Until now I have resisted telling them to get back in the box where their thoughts are comfortable and flow more easily.
        The blueprint is challenging so the treasure may be located by the one who can best adjust. To illustrate my point go to YouTube – Smarter Every Day. f

        • Seeker, it’s that last phrase that particularly resonates with me: “The blueprint is challenging so the treasure may be located by the one who can best adjust.”

          It is the adjustment that is the most difficult part of this, IMO. The initial unwrapping of the clues takes a lot of imagination followed by painstaking application, but the basis of them is not that difficult. However, there are many seeming dead ends where you need to look for a chink of light coming from a small crack in the wall, metaphorically speaking. When you approach the light, you find that it’s actually a narrow passage that eventually leads into a broad sunlit meadow. But if you can’t adjust, you’ll never find the passage. That’s the way it’s been for me, anyway.

          • I put the quote up for this reason; I see others stating how the rest of us should see it their way. Great everyone has an opinion… I just thought it would be refreshing for others to hear fenn’s view again of the subject.

            I mean, with all the fortune cookie postings of how brilliant someone is, and how all should hear them good… I’d like to think the guy who created the challenge would know best… what do you think?

          • Well said and it’s a quote that needs to be seen more often, imo. A lot of people here seem to inflate the amount of effort required simply because they have put in a lot of effort and changed their way of looking at the poem many times. It may require that, but no one knows at this point and these “think at a higher level”, “the poem is brilliant and will require a brilliant mind”, etc. type posts often don’t get the “I think this/this is my opinion” qualifier that seems to be the rule for the “home of Brown is X” type posts.

          • Fmc, that’s just the problem. The poem IS brilliant to be able to sound so vague and yet hide such precision. If there is a searcher with an equally brilliant mind who can solve it at a stroke, they haven’t shown up yet, so we all have to plod away and put in significant effort. And I don’t think you need to be a sycophant to recognize just how clever these 24 lines are.

          • I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again … “You don’t need to be a genius to find the treasure, but it couldn’t hurt you any.”

          • The poem can be clever and not take years of analysis to solve. My impression (at this only since January or so) is that the multi-year searchers/posters put some kind of mythical reverence on FF and the poem. People are free to do what they want, but he’s just a man. You can be impressed with your interpretation of the complexity of the poem and believe what you want about how long it should take to solve, but treating that belief as truth is where I happen to disagree.

          • I don’t disagree with you, Fmc. It’s only taken me this long because of my own shortcomings.

            While I’ve never been one of those to revere Forrest or regard him as superhuman (and find those that do somewhat creepy), I do however recognize the genius in the poem. It has been crafted with real care and thought, and hides so much beneath the surface (IMO). If anyone believes otherwise, they should be able to go and pick up the treasure pretty quickly, I would have thought.

          • I 100% agree with you Seeker. It was refreshing to hear Forrest’s words again.

            As you quoted, Forrest said: “~ The solve is difficult for many searchers because their minds think the clues are tougher to decrypt than they really are.”

            In reality, for me at least, the clues were not actually that difficult to decrypt… Initially, that is. The decrypted words took me from wwwh to the place that I was SURE the treasure was hidden. The problem was, it wasn’t there. I had several choices. 1) I could quit, and just say I was wrong. 2) I could re-evaluate and try to find out IF I had made a mistake or 3) I could try again, but not from the same starting point, but try again, to make the words of the poem work from where the words had led me. Finding new meanings for the same words – meanings that matched my new location was HARD, but not impossible.

            I chose #3…and it has worked out well (I hope)
            To continue Forrest’s quote…”Some say they are trying to think outside the box, as if the solution lies somewhere out there.
            Until now I have resisted telling them to get back in the box where their thoughts are comfortable and flow more easily.
            The blueprint is challenging so the treasure may be located by the one who can best adjust. To illustrate my point go to YouTube – Smarter Every Day. ” f

            For me, this adjustment was starting over, but from where I stood. THAT was a BIG adjustment. I hope to know fairly soon if this adjustment will “pay off”. Just the mutterings of an OLD fool. JDA

        • Seeker’s fortune cookies… um I mean opinions;
          ~Following in another two footsteps will lead you to step in it too.
          ~If we all walk the same path, we all will miss something altogether.
          ~He who walks thru seeing it only from his perspective, walks blindly.
          ~With no explanation attempted… there’s no reason to wonder about it.

          Oh! right… IMO.

        • Seeker,
          IMO, one of the most helpful F quotes available anywhere. Thanks!
          Geoff
          “Have flashlight, will travel”

  26. The trouble is, Mr. Fenn probably didn’t think dullards like me would be attempting this! For a guy like him, maybe it seems easy, but I’ve found it to be extremely tough going.

    • Vox,
      Everyone has the same opportunity, the same information… easy, hard, difficult but not impossible, right way, wrong way, ignorance or stupidity does really matter in my eyes.
      Dedication.. might be the best word my dull mind can come up with.

      * “The person that finds it, is going to be a person who thinks and plans and has an analytical mind and uses logic, not someone who has a hunch.” 
      * “Craig, there is no substitute for thinking and planning and observing and looking at maps, unless it’s the desire to keep it simple.f

      * “The poem in my book is something that I changed over and over again. When you read the poem it looks like just simple words there. But I guarantee you that I worked on that. I felt like an architect drawing that poem.”

      * “I said in my book that the solution will be difficult but not impossible. If it was easy anyone could do it. Whoever finds the treasure will mostly earn it with their imagination. I have done only a few things in my life that were truly planned. Hiding the treasure chest is one of them. And at the end, the one who finds the gold will not feel lucky, but instead, will ask himself, ”what took me so long?”

      * “I’m not flippant about this. It’s not something somebody is going to be able to do on spring break or a Sunday afternoon picnic. I’m looking a hundred years down the road, maybe a thousand years down the road. People don’t understand that.”

      Here’s five “fortune” cookies… bon appetit

      • “Dedication.” Hear, hear! That’s absolutely what’s required.

        Thanks for the “fortune cookies” reminder. I can associate with all of those as they relate to my own search.

        • Now that I have my new hearing aids . Hear me ALL will take on a new understanding!!!

  27. The poem unlocks itself from within and needs no outside influence. Attention to detail is the key. The unconquered poem needs but one brave being who can look at it in the eye and say, “I got you!” and don’t let go. Follow the leader(the poem) but do not take a step if you doubt, for if you do you will miss it ,and fall in a different , unrelated path. Do not believe anyone or anything but the poem for only it will unlock itself to you, but persist and even though the road seems unclear it only takes that step of faith to unravel the illusion unto the reality that it is. This is my opinion.RC

  28. After over a year of searching for the bronze box in several locations, and reading and re-reading TTOTC, the poem, the Scrapbooks etc. (wow, Dal, you’ve accumulated, sorted and shared so MUCH information about Mr. Fenn! – you’re amazing!), and reading a LOT of the comments by searchers here and at Jenny’s site, I’ve come to a few conclusions.

    I don’t resonate with all the “nine” symbolism – I’m so much more comfortable with sevens and eights. Sort of a “your box doesn’t seem to be the same as my box”.

    A lot of people are really into old Egypt (following Mr. Fenn’s fascination with Egyptian artifacts?). Me, nah, not really.

    I got involved in the treasure hunt as just that, a treasure hunt. Wanted to see the husband be able to retire, and believe it or not I really REALLY wanted to give Mr. Fenn back his bracelet (vindication for him, publicly, that yes it really exists and yes the poem CAN be solved). It seemed so simple and straightforward and I read and re-read his words because I thought THEY were, too. Now, not so sure – or maybe I’ve just been too influenced by everyone else’s comments on these blogs. But I figured at least SOME of you all knew him personally, which I don’t.

    In any case, seems to me there are too many ‘layers’ and too many other voices, all I can hear these days is static (please, that’s just the way I hear it, not implying anything about any posters, it’s my hearing not your sharing, okay?)

    All said, I really really really hope somebody finds that chest so Mr. Fenn gets his bracelet back and the other things he wanted to see happen. Best wishes to all “searchers” in your lives. Learn stuff, do stuff, grow stuff, create stuff. Best uses of your alloted time on the planet.

    Fare thee well,
    SD

    • I hope your “Fare thee well” Was not a “Good bye”. Would hate to see a searcher leave. Take care, and TRY to STAY SAFE – JDA

    • I can understand your feelings on this. After reading the poem I figured it would take me two weeks at the most to go find the chest. Five years later I’m probably even farther away than when I started. I’ve been able to transition from full time treasure hunter to treating it like a hobby. It’s fun for now since my kids are old enough to go on my searches, but when they are out of the house then I probably will stop as well. The fun is in the searching and sharing the Rockies with the kids.

  29. nice sentiment SD, but my time has come and gone….and did not fare too well.

  30. (Comment I posted on a Youtube video about the nine clues. Just going to… drop this… right here. Carry on!)

    In a Q & A on MW, someone named “halo” asked Forrest if he intended there to be 9 clues, or if it just worked out that way. His reply was:

    “Nice thinking halo, I didn’t count the clues until the poem had been finalized. Although I changed it a few times over the months I think the number stayed about the same. f”

    6/29/2014
    http://mysteriouswritings.com/questions-with-forrest-fenn-and-the-thrill-of-the-chase/

    So here is my question to ponder:

    If he didn’t count the clues until after the poem had been finalized, and there happened to be nine when he did, how did it come about that the number nine showed up as the number of sentences in the poem too?

    Think about that for a moment. There are nine verifiable sentences. He says there are nine clues. He says he didn’t count the clues until after the poem was finalized. If the count of nine came into existence after finalization, is the count of sentences being nine just some weird coincidence? It seems very unlikely that a nine would be the count of both things, unless they were the same thing. I mean, if he counted the clues after the poem was written, and there were nine clues, a separate sentence count of nine would imply some sort of retrocasuality, or maybe even time travel!

    I’m joking. The point I’m making is that doesn’t make sense to think of them as separate things, in light of this comment to “halo”.

    Doesn’t it make more sense that the nine sentences are the actual nine clues, and that people are wasting their time trying to figure out which parts of the poem are important?

    I’ve taken to calling the whole nine clue thing The First Distraction, because it really is. It’s what people have latched on to since the early days of the search, and a reply like the one to “halo” really makes you wonder if people have been misdirecting themselves all this time.

      • @Ice if not for HoD I’d not known about the New Mexico Fish and Game reg (Where warm waters halt) and I wouldn’t have know a hiker can get a ticket in NM if they don’t get special permits for certain areas. The blog is not the Thrill but it’s a learning center for me….reading how folks put together their solves for ‘X’ and finding zero….lol! IMO

        • I’m not knocking the blogs. I am saying searchers are allocating too much respect to the comments and opinions of others rather than digging into the poem.

          • I agree with that sentiment Iceman. But many folks choose the route of least resistance in their search for a solution.

            I think one of the reasons for this is the intimidating warehouse of information floating around about Forrest and the treasure hunt.It is simply mind numbing. It is sometimes easier to read the most recent comments on the blogs than wade into the thick of it and spend the time needed to formulate a good solution of your own…

            I understand that philosophy…a person not experienced in organized research could have a brain aneurism trying to separate facts from rumor from opinion.

            If there is any advantage to having been around for awhile I believe it is simply that all this information has come over nearly seven years of listening to Forrest and exploring his life…it is not something that we had to “catch-up” on overnight in order to formulate a knowledgeable solution…

            It’s human nature for all but the most adventurous to try and take short-cuts to get to where we want to be…and then..to hear someone say that they think the chest will be found this year…just increases the desire for new folks to use the handiest information available to put together a solution…which, of course, is steeped in errors because so much unhandy material was overlooked in an attempt to be quick.

            So, I agree with your point, but I doubt that anything we do can move people away from the most expedient route,

          • Dal –
            All those things are true, but like ff once said … “there are no shortcuts”. I myself feel like I have read the equivalent of the Encyclopedia Britannica.

          • Hi Dal.

            You wrote:

            “listening to Forrest and exploring his life…”

            Thinking like Forrest has clearly been a positive help for me in the hunt.

            The “when” really has no bearing IMO – except for giving us searchers a time period to exlpore, whereas, if one takes the “hows” and the “whys”…and even involve the “ifs”….one can be like Fenn in many regards and aspects, in order to get a better feel of the man and how he may have applied his words & actions.

            Just another level of the poem many outright disregard.

            Cheers!

          • Hey Iceman….

            You wrote…..

            “….searchers are allocating too much respect to the comments and opinions of others rather than digging into the poem.”

            I’m not seeing this at all, but more so, others helping others…..’fine tune’ details 28th thesolve they created.

            IMO – and wholly believe, the global consciousness revealsmany things to people if they are ‘observing’ or paying attention to what is being said.

            You’d be surprised what suggests you will find in all the Whitehouse…if you are attentive.

            Be like Fenn.

            :o)

          • Tim –
            You sound like competition. What state are you focused on? Of course you don’t have to answer.

          • Dal,

            Excellent synopsis you wrote on the 13th! I might even go a step further and add that it is my opinion that “the blogs/websites” et al, can be very distracting, to the point of making me wonder if what I am chasing after is Indulgence, or the thrills of others along the way. (And before I get any “hate mail”, I am not referring to living my chase life vicariously through the trials and tribulations of others.) It’s just that as I focus more on the task at hand, the din in the background gets louder. FWIW, I check in on this site once or twice a week and try to stay within a couple of weeks of being “caught up” – but I blow by/through a lot of the diatribe. Life’s too short to get so wound up/wrapped up in the sniggling debates. I stay checked in to stay caught up on what others are thinking and to see what others have discovered along the way. Often, I enjoy the camaraderie of others and their kindred spirit of adventure, wit and the occasional pun.

            Again, many thanx to you, Dal, for this website/blog. For one, I appreciate it so very much.

      • It’s a coincidence — without intent or design, because he did say that the count was unintentional — that the clue count, which only came after the poem was finalized, just happened to match?

        Start Writing
        (0 clues / 0 sentences)
        |
        |
        |
        15 Years Later
        Poem Finalized
        (9 sentences)
        |
        Count of Clues
        (9 clues)

        That’s just a coincidence?

        • It’s not an accident. It’s a carefully planned deception to make searchers think nine clues align sequentially with the nine sentences … I think.

        • Jeremy,
          Although I agree with you, that would make the first stanza the first clue. Didn’t f say WWWH was the first clue?

          • Would it? The only statements that he’s made about the order of the clues is that they are consecutive/contiguous.

            F, A, B, C, D, E

            is a a consecutive/contiguous loop.

            People really do get stuck on an idea.

          • Actually, that’s not the case. Forrest did say that WWWH was the first clue in one of his interviews. I don’t have it at the finger tips, but it was discussed at length not to long ago.
            It may have been a radio interview.

          • You’re missing what I was saying. In…

            F, A, B, C, D, E

            … ‘A’ can be the first clue.

          • I know what Jeremy’s saying – and it makes sense – but I don’t think it matters. The really important thing is to find WWWH, because nothing else can happen without that.

            For me, the number of clues is irrelevant. I simply try to do what the poem tells me.

          • YES – Forrest said that wwwh is the first clue. We each can twist these words to match our way of thinking. I have said – one sentence = one clue. I have also said that I have re-ordered the stanza’s 561234 – so how do I reconcile this new information? I now say that stanza’s 56 and 1 are introductory or preamble stanzas and that 2, 3 and 4 are Directional stanza’s and that wwwh is the first directional clue. Am I twisting Forrest’t words to match my solve – probably. JDA

          • YES – Forrest said that wwwh is the first clue. We each can twist these words to match our way of thinking. I have said – one sentence = one clue. I have also said that I have re-ordered the stanza’s 561234 – so how do I reconcile this new information? I now say that stanza’s 5, 6 and 1 are introductory or preamble stanzas and that 2, 3 and 4 are Directional stanza’s and that wwwh is the first directional clue. Am I twisting Forrest’t words to match my solve – probably. JDA

          • Let me put it a simpler way 🙂 You said, “that would make the first stanza the first clue”. I said, “Would it?”

            If you have a compass, which is a circular, what you’re saying is akin to saying you have to start with North as the first clue. That’s not the case. You can start at East and make your way around and North is just fine being last and you’re still completely continuous, contiguous, and starting at East as the first.

            I’m throwing that out as an analogy… I’m not saying the poem is a compass or anything.

          • Yes, but if that meant (arbitrarily, as an example) you started at the line which mentions the blaze, how would that impact your search?

          • Jeremy,
            To my knowledge, Forrest has not used the word “contiguous” when referring to the clues in the poem. He has used the word “consecutive” on at least two occasions:
            – Lorene Mills interview airing 5/11-13/2011 (~27:00),
            – mysteriouswritings question posed by joseph on 10/3/2014.
            (not providing links as these have been subject to change)

            His statement was roughly the same in both cases that “the clues are in consecutive order.”

            Consecutive: a) following one another in uninterrupted succession or order; successive, and, b) marked by logical sequence.

            Definition ‘a)’ above would seem to coincide with contiguous, however, when you introduce logic into the equation, “contiguous” or “uninterrupted succession” may not be applicable. So, it seems dependent upon which definition a searcher chooses to apply…
            Just sayin’.
            Joe

          • Why would you arbitrarily pick a place to start? I’m not saying picking a place is arbitrary. You’re still starting with “Begin it…”

          • You wouldn’t! I was picking one arbitrarily to make the point that if you’re not careful you’ll make the poem impossible to solve.

          • Ken;

            You say, “I will add that when he talks about ” precise” it makes me wiggle in my seat quite a bit, and makes me think real hard about how that could be with only nine clues in a vague six stanza Poem/map. I do get what you are trying to say though…and I do not subscribe(intentionally) to the nine sentence/nine clue theory. ”

            Your last sentence, “and I do not subscribe(intentionally) to the nine sentence/nine clue theory. ” – I personally think that you are making a mistake, but that is your choice.

            However you count the 9 clues – – –

            Regarding the first part of your quote. What if your first time through the poem, you go from wwwh – to the place you think that Indulgence is – – – but
            it is not there (nine clues used up.) Why not go back through the same nine clues – but starting where you ended up, and try to solve the poem again.
            Now you are not restricted to nine clues, but have 18 to get you closer – do it again, and you have 27 clues to get you even closer – maybe even 36 or even 45 clues to get you to the EXACT spot that Indulgence is secreted.

            A lot more work, but Forrest never said that it was going to be easy.

            Just something to chew on. JDA

          • JDA,

            You said: “……Now you are not restricted to nine clues, but have 18 to get you closer – do it again, and you have 27 clues to get you even closer – maybe even 36 or even 45 clues “

            Wow jd, that’s a bold suggestion. Let me see if I have this correct. You’re suggesting that there could be up to 5 different solutions to each individual clue, and there are up to 5 passes that need to be made through the poem, and that the searcher is now required to solve each clue 5 times in the correct order on the correct ‘pass’ through the poem in order to get to the chest? What happens if you accidentally substitute answer 5 in pass 4 with answer 5 in pass 3…aren’t you royally screwed going forward? If this is what you’re suggesting you’ve just made the solution millions or billions of time more difficult for yourself. Wasn’t it hard enough with just 9 pieces of information to retrieve on one pass?

            Could be this is the answer to the question “why did F give us a 9 clue count?” If someone goes down the open-ended rabbit hole of an unstated number of repetitive passes you propose, there’s no end.

          • Colokid;

            In your rebuttal to my post (Which was very good) you state,”What happens if you accidentally substitute answer 5 in pass 4 with answer 5 in pass 3…”

            This would not happen. Here is why.
            You start at point 1 and go to point #9.
            (There may or not be nine points as you go through the nine clues)

            Lap #2 you start at point #9 and go to point #18 – using logical points on the ground.

            I have said that I have moved stanza’s 5 and 6 to the top. So Instruction #1 is:
            “So why is it that I must go and leave my trove for all to seek.”

            So, having ended with, “Just take the chest and go in peace – and NOT finding the chest, I start again at – “So why is it that I must go (So why is it that I must leave this spot where I thought Indulgence was secreted…)
            “And leave my trove for all to seek…”
            (and search for a new spot where the trove is secreted…)

            “The answers I already know, I’ve done it tired and now I’m weak.” (I {Forrest Fenn know why you must look for another place – do you?} must seek a spot that is “Tired and weak” from where I am.” Once this “Tired and weak” spot is found – You must “Listen” and find a spot that may be “cold” in some way. The search area has gotten much smaller than the area covered in lap #1 – finding spots that match the clues in this much smaller search area is not that difficult IF you use logic and your imagination.

            etc. etc through the remaining clues. Forrest “LEADS” you from one spot to another – logically, if you open your eyes and mind to what the words mean. If, after finding the NEW nine clues, indulgence is still not found – follow Forrest’s advice and go back to clue #1.

            I know, does this mean BIWWWH?
            or can I go back to MY “Hint” or INSTRUCTION #1, and work my way towards DIRECTIONAL Clue #1.

            Until I find Indulgence, this is an open question. Hope this helps. JDA

          • Colokid,
            LOL, don’t you know that is called layering, or maybe compiling would be a more accurate term; Collecting information from other sources. Wait, that doesn’t sound like “get back into the box” line of thinking. Does it?

            JDA, how in the world would self adding clues help narrow down anything? I mean, observing is one thing, but creating more clues doesn’t eliminate wrong clues thoughts.
            You said; ‘ but it is not there (nine clues used up.) Why not go back through the same nine clues – but starting where you ended up, and try to solve the poem again.’

            How can we ‘start’ where we ended up, if we ‘go back’ through the 9 clues? Am I missing something or not understand your comment? [ are you reverse engineering?]

            While we have been told; if we don’t find the chest, go back to the first clue. Yet, it seems you have us creating different clues[references] for the same route and adding more to the original first thought process.

            I think what is missing here is that old saying… learn from your mistakes, idea.
            What I’m seeing is, your throwing gas on a fire, concept.

          • Seeker;

            Maybe I can explain it this way. I will not confuse things by talking about my 561234 stanza thing – set that aside. We will use the standard 123456 format.

            We all have to pick “A” wwwh spot to begin our “Solve”. It is here that we begin our quest. We work our way through the nine clues, and hopefully find Indulgence. What do we do if we do not find her? We start again. Probably at the same spot that this failed solve was started from, but try to figure out where we went wrong.

            “What IF” we DID NOT make a mistake? What if Forrest wanted us to end up at the point that we ended up, but Indulgence was not there?

            The most logical thing to do is to start again at Clue #1 again, because this is what Forrest told us to do…but to start again, at the spot where we are standing, after completing Solve #1.

            We ended up at, “If you’ve been brave and in the wood I give you title to the gold.” Look around you, is there a spot nearby that could be a NEW wwwh spot? There probably is, if you use a bit of logic, and a strong bit of imagination. Start – anew – at this spot, and work your way through “Solution” (Solve) #2. What is so hard about that? We have ALL started new “Solves” after one attempt failed. I am just suggesting that this NEW Solve begin at or near where the previous solve ended – that’s all. JDA

          • Hi JDA.

            Your play on the “macro” / “micro” way of looking at the puzzle.

            I think this works well for the first couple of stanzas, but yet to see how it plays out for the remainder of the poem.

            Good luck.

          • JDA,
            What your saying goes against, well pretty much everything fenn has said.
            Paraphrasing – if you want to look them up for accuracy, please do;

            -If you have the first clue your 1/2 way there, idea… Your theory has a searcher going farther and farther, with multiple wwwh, multiple canyons down etc. Not once more, but many times more.

            -If you can figure out the first few clues you should be able to find the chest, idea… Again, you have the searcher ‘starting at the end’ of one quest and starting from there on a new quest with a whole other set of deciphered clues.

            – The path would not be direct for those who had no certainty of the location beforehand, but sure for the one who did, idea.
            Where is the certainty beforehand of the path? I mean, how can anyone be certain of anything if there first 9 clues fail… that is called a wrong theory… not the first round of a 12 round bout.

            -The most important piece of information we have is “the poem contains 9 clues IF…”
            Whether we see it one way or another on how to read those 9 clues doesn’t matter… there’s friggin 9 of them… otherwise everything the man says is untrue- IF- that is not true.

            I starting to think fenn miscalculated that 7%… or I’m in that 7% and too crazy to know it.

            You said; ” (I {Forrest Fenn know why you must look for another place – do you?}
            My answer is Nope… and I sure don’t hope it means I need more clues after 9 of them.

            You said; ” …– logically, if you open your eyes and mind to what the words mean.”

            I can’t agree more……..

          • Sorry JD,

            I’m going to have to agree whole heartedly with Seeker on his analysis. Continuing to iterate the chase in this way is like throwing good money after bad. There is no basis in before or ATF statements that would even hint that this is a wise process.

            Personally, when I come up empty I suck it up and start over from scratch. Sure you could cast around and look for “another WWH” but isn’t that just saying you’re making things up as you go….you didn’t have the right WWH to begin with?

            It’s your time an money tho so spend as you see fit. Good luck.

          • JDA may be on to something important. Although I took a slightly different approach, I had to extend my search from my original end point, more than doubling my trajectory. That enabled me to find the omega I posted about recently. Without completing this “twin” solution, I would not have known what to look for at the final location. I can’t say definitively that it’s correct, but when you see on the ground the exact “replica” of your trajectory, you might be forgiven for thinking that you’ve got something right. 😉

            It may sound counterintuitive, but I wouldn’t dismiss what JDA is suggesting.

          • Vox,
            I apologize in advance, but I suspect that your counsel is a bit suspect. As I recall you’re the guy who spent dear money to cross the pond in May when the snow in the RM’s still lies deep, the waters are rising, and bears are coming out of their dens looking for food. All this in a attempt to poke about in swamps, find dog doo sculptures, ‘mysteriously’ placed rocks and drawing conclusions from post canine processed folding money. Also, if not mistaken, are you not the fellow that was previously forever getting stuck on muddy 4WD roads due to lack of judgment? Don’t get me started on the grainy fuzzy Rorschach images from GE that are supposed to be omegas. There were such a diverse and unrelated kaleidoscope of ideas presented in your search story that it’s extremely hard for me to envision any outcome other than what you experienced.

            Once again, your time/your money and do as you please but this curriculum vitae is hardly the kind that encourages others to jump on your bandwagon of thought.

            And for your own safety, please try to learn a bit about the seasons/wildlife in the RM’s. We don’t need another statistic.

        • Yes, Jeremy: I’m claiming that the clue count and the sentence count both equaling 9 is just a coincidence. And not a particularly rare coincidence. It’s not like there are 67 clues and 67 sentences — that would be more statistically significant. My point is that If you force a 1-to-1 correspondence between clues and sentences, you really start to paint yourself into a corner. You can pretend that F-A-B-C-D-E is contiguous, but that requires a circular interpretation that is not well justified. It certainly wouldn’t be what I would call a “straightforward” reading of the poem.

          But I think the bigger problem is the necessity of “Begin it where warm waters halt and take it in the canyon down, not far, but too far to walk” being just a single clue. Or even worse: that the entire 3rd stanza is just one clue. That anyone can think that no place for the meek / end is ever drawing nigh / no paddle up your creek / heavy loads / water high all constitute a single clue is a bit bewildering to me.

          On a final note, what sort of man is Forrest? Someone who follows the rules, hikes only on established trails, and pays strict attention to sentence structure? Or someone who blazes their own trail and enjoys bouncing off a few curbs while he does it?

          • OK, so hold on a sec. I have to call this out. Some have said that it’s too open-ended to consider the nine sentences to be the nine clues, that it doesn’t help you to narrow it down. I disagree, but I don’t see the need to say anything about that. Here, you’re saying the opposite, that it paints you into a corner. Both are arguments of inconvenience and I’m not sure why there would be an expectation of convenience in a treasure hunt. But I’m really curious about your position, because I can’t see why, in a treasure hunt, where you’re trying to find a single location, in all of the Rocky Mountains, that you *wouldn’t* want to “paint yourself into a corner”.

            Your statement was: “That anyone can think that no place for the meek / end is ever drawing nigh / no paddle up your creek / heavy loads / water high all constitute a single clue is a bit bewildering to me.”

            That is exactly narrowing it down, to find a place where all of those things fit in a single location.

          • Well, Jeremy, all I can say is good luck with that approach. I think it will lead you to the null set. That’s what I meant by being painted into a corner: the intersection of too many requirements.

    • Let me roll back the conversation for a moment. The idea to ponder is simply, which makes more sense: A) There are two separate “nines”, the sentence count that was fixed at the time of finalization of the poem, and a second nine that only came into existence when Forrest decided to count clues, or B) They are both the same thing.

      The feedback is that ¡that can’t be so! because Forrest says to start with what is actually the second sentence.

      I can think of at least two ways you can be instructed to start with the second sentence to find the treasure, and still be referencing nine sentences as nine clues. One is that the poem is circular, the other is you don’t need nine clues to find it (which he’s also said).

      But what I’d really like you to think about is the force of that first question I asked, which makes more sense? I think that’s a pretty compelling argument for how the poem is structured.

      • What you say makes sense, Jeremy, but only under certain conditions. The general assumption is that the poem is linear and in one direction only. That may not be the case.

        FWIW, Stanza 1 is important to both the beginning and ending of my solve. That means that it informs Stanza 2 (and comes into play again later). Also, it is not circular for me, but it does have shape.

        In addition, you need to be able to “nail down” WWWH. Simply to been with “Begin it” does not give you sufficient information to determine where to begin. That information has to come from somewhere.

          • Guys –
            Here is my humble suggestion. You are the searcher. You figure out where to strat. You count he clues when you’re done. Don’t rely on ff or other searchers to determine it for you. Take control. Find the treasure. Be like Iceman. 🙂 Now isn’t this fun? Cause I’m having fun … I think.

        • “Linear -> one direction” is compatible with “Of nine -> start with second -> you only need four”, so like I mentioned it doesn’t have to be circular. I mean, I don’t really care how people accept that nine clues are probably nine sentences, that’s just the point I’m making 🙂

      • I would add that his statement that the poem contains nine clues came with the publishing of the book.

        All the statements about which clue you should focus on, how many you should care about, all that… again, I call them “Distractions”… came well after people had been searching, thinking, missing that there were nine sentences and asking him which parts were clues, and all of that. That’s all searchers, not him, not originally.

        One thing that is consistent: Forrest does not make a habit of correcting people when they are wrong.

        Isn’t it more likely that the thing that started this all was him sitting at a keyword writing his book and typing out “So I wrote a poem containing nine clues…”, and he could have just as easily wrote “So I wrote a poem with nine sentences..” except that wouldn’t have sounded as cool?

        Because that one line is the ship that launched a thousand solves where people are listing numbered clues. That one line.

        • I should also add that it really helps if you add “Muhahaha” after every statement Forrest makes.

          So, whenever he says, “People aren’t paying enough attention to the first clue” … add “Muhahaha!”

          • Going off on a ‘lil rant are we Jeremy?
            (kidding) Kudos for rocking the boat, bucking the trend: “we gotta have all 9 of em”.

            But I am more interested in where you fit in this classroom. I mean are you at the philosophical, “I’m never leaving my house til I know for certain” Or do you feel like you’re making headway?
            Are you the stubborn….I’ll never give up on my search area or do you try keep your options open, learn from your errors?

            Not being critical, just don’t recall what you’ve been up to.

          • Haha, I just read this! Not on a rant, just had some work to do on the computer, have two screens, thought I’d start a discussion while I was otherwise occupied. You probably won’t hear from me again for days after…

            To answer your question, I’m a BOTG searcher, through and through. I just don’t get the opportunity but maybe once a year since I’m 1000+ miles away and have a day job.

            Let’s see: I like to think I keep my options open, accept failures well, and learn from my errors. I’m playing the long game 🙂

            I invite everyone to beat me to it.

        • That’s how I’ve been tackling the poem, Jeremy P. If the goal is to find Mr. Fenn’s “secret where”, why would anyone start by looking for a “secret where”? It makes better sense to start later in the poem (BIWWWH) and let the clues bring you full circle (poem-wise) to the last clue – his “secret where” (in the first stanza). We know Mr. Fenn doesn’t always follow the rules – he might expect us to follow his example. IMO.

        • Jermey,
          fenn could have easily stated; So I wrote a poem containing clue…

          Halo asked a very good question to which I thought was a lean towards… did you know what the 9 clues would refer to prior to writing the poem? or did the 9 clue present themselves as you wrote the poem.?

          Whether or not the “clues” are represented by all 9 sentences or 9 specific pieces within those sentences… I don’t believe as anything to do with a solve perse. The overall idea is to use the entire poem.

          The again, fenn seem to make a conscious effort to say 9 clues. Now we can look at the ATF pieces of information that might help with your very important [ imo ] analyzing. For the clues to be consecutive… seems rather simple in nature within the poem and in the field [abcdefg] ~ 9 specific clue reference.

          The more intriguing thought is the clues being “contiguous” and that seems to relate to the poem as well… all the pieces of information should be neighboring each other. or the full understanding of how the poem presents itself as needed to be utilized and understood, with the specific 9 clues “references”

          Cuz, something is missing in the “understanding,” when we have searchers who deciphered clues and on location with all the clues and they seemingly were blindly stomping in Neverland.

          Sure, we know wwwh is the first clue… does that make Hints of riches new and old any less important?

          • Thanks Seeker, I think something you said would be one of the benefits of abandoning the “Parts of Poem Approach”. One of the common questions that searchers ask themselves is “What are the nine things that the nine clues *refer* to?” They aren’t just looking for nine parts of the poem that are important. They’re trying to translate these nine pieces to nine things out there in the world.

            It’s a map, the poem, but I don’t think there’s any real justification for the idea that there’s, say, nine places (or other things) built into the poem that you’re supposed to find. I think that’s just an idea, common as it is, that searchers have latched on to.

            There are places that the clues refer to, he’s said that, but nine of them doesn’t necessarily follow. There’s probably less than nine. I think my point is that there’s no point in numbering them.

          • * * * * Jeremy wrote – “It’s a map, the poem, but I don’t think there’s any real justification for the idea that there’s, say, nine places (or other things) built into the poem that you’re supposed to find. I think that’s just an idea, common as it is, that searchers have latched on to.” * * * *

            There is this recent Q&A:

            Featured Q? with Forrest Fenn: Toponymy or Geography
            by Jenny Kile · April 5, 2017

            Dear Forrest, What’s more important in solving the search, a greater knowledge (“knowlege”) of Toponymy or Geography? ~Chris

            “I don’t know how Toponymy can help you at all Chris (I had to look that word up). But if you knew the geographic location of each clue it would be a map to the treasure.” f

          • JA Kraven’s post seems to say it best…or at least puts some good substance to the idea. Fenn’s own words(ATF) state that the geographic location of “each” clue is a map to the treasure. I lean towards interpreting that as it sounds. It makes sense that the Poem(Map) tells of the locations necessary to find the hidey spot…with a hint or so along the way. Nice food for thought Jeremy P.

          • Jeremy,

            My thought is about perception…
            Some see 9 clue as only 9 things to use. Some see 9 sentences are the clue themselves… and that seems to relate to all the theories we read about as well… almost force 9 to be the a magical number, rather than a ‘guide’ to might mean, don’t over-think or under-think the WhatIF’s

            Example of a WhatIF… could some of the references be places need to be traveled get to a single point, to view the other references? [lol.. I just heard a lot of head gaskets popping].

            We have a number of AFT comments to think about and help in that thought process… WhatIF one perspective is; some clues lead to a specific location [ say hoB ]… However, “from there it’s no place…” doesn’t seem to say, you must travel to it.
            It might mean, we simply view things ‘from there’ … heck it may even imply the ‘next’ place use to exist at one time but doesn’t exist at the present [ such as HLAWH?]. [ but there might be something that is seen/viewed to explain this].

            This would give the viewer / ‘searcher’ a sort of clarification that the location they presently stand at might be the location of the chest [in theory, hoB.]

            Perception is a killer… if we only can ‘imagine’ it to be one way. [attempting to ride a versed bike, normally]. That type of one-way process doesn’t allow for any adjustments.
            Or as other bloggers enjoy tell other bloggers… their one and only way of see all this, is the correct way. The rest of us are just lost in the woods.

            I like this conversation Jeremy, thanks for bringing it up… But as you have seen, some responded with only their solve idea..
            You used the word ‘distraction’ for the reason of this conversation. I think distraction is what I call, the cattle solve… only attempting to solve the poem by repetition… doing the same thing over and over again.

            LOL, or as some blogger have said… you have to commit to one way and run with it.

            Good discussion in my book…

          • Don’t forget to append it the magic chuckle…

            “But if you knew the geographic location of each clue it would be a map to the treasure.” Muhahaha 🙂

            The “geographic location of each clue” could just be ONE single geographic location, like Yellowstone, like the whole poem takes place in the relatively small general area of Yellowstone. Or maybe a handful of distinct geographical places, like you start off in one town, go to another, but then several clues share the same place (half are in the same canyon, or what have you).

            What I’m saying is that there’s nothing here that implies you’re looking for nine separate geographical locations — there’s nothing tying a number to anything geographical.

            In fact, many searchers apply the “nine clues” as “nine parts of the poem” in ways that don’t reference geographical locations at all. “Marvel gaze”, a common choice for a piece of the poem that people use, is usually interpreted as something you *do*, somewhere. So that action, counted as one of the nine, occurs in some place, not as a place itself. I read recently people talking about “down” being South. Well, that’s not a geographical location, it’s a direction relative to a geographical location. Searchers, I would say generally, don’t come up with nine separate locations. They come up with an arbitrary other number.

            My point here is to say that because nine clues refer to a place, or a series of places, like a map, there’s no reason to think that each clue needs to refer to a distinct, separate geographical place, definitely not nine places. I don’t think this is a very good argument against the nine sentences being the actual nine clues.

            Make sense?

            Again, consider what you’re actually saying if you said there’s nine clues and they refer to nine places, using his words as justification. You’re saying that he wrote nine sentences (his words), after that he counted and saw that unintentionally (his words) there were nine clues (his words) and that these nine clues point to nine geographical places (what you’re saying his words mean).

            There’s a lot of magic taking place there, and it seems unlikely.

          • Jeremy,
            I get exactly what you’re saying… been there, done that, still doing it.

            Lets say one draft of the poem was in 1992 and a fast count of what fenn implies as clues was 8, or in another draft there were 10… but in the final draft, the one he decided that was exactly how he wanted it to be, ended up with 9 clues. I get it.

            Yet, you can’t just dismiss the fact he stated there are 9 clues. Like i said before [ or attempted to imply ] that might be a helpful guide for us… once someone as deciphered what needs to be understood.
            IF we end up with 15 clues or 5 clues… something might be wrong, line of thinking.

            But to start out only looking for 9 anything seems to force fit solutions or dismiss important information. And could very well be why searcher walked by everything.

            LOL… then again!!
            fenn calls everything a clue.
            Not in an outhouse for example. How can anything not be anywhere and be considered a “clue” by fenn’s usage of a clue, that is supposed to you closer? I mean, does below 10,200′ or above 5000′ truly get you closer? or without knowing that, you wouldn’t be able to ‘get’ closer?

            He seemingly wanted 9 to be know for some reason. Whatever the reason.
            Maybe that reason is to help think about ~not over thinking [complicated it more than it already is ] or oversimplifying it [by thinking this is going to be a walk in the park]… more like, the Goldilocks theory if you will… ‘just right’

            While all this is just for discussion about possibilities… He did say it. And to just toss the thought to why he said it might be the wrong approach as well.

            There is ‘no simple’ about any of this, imo. The thought of; “What took me so long?” vs. “feeling lucky” says to me, after all the analyzing the snots out of this… the correct solution should flow like a lazy river. But to float down the lazy river.. ya need to go through the mental white waters rapids first.

            So, I agree in the thought of holding off about 9’s of anything until more is known / understood, to help understand why 9 was mentioned.

          • Seeker, you said: “the correct solution should flow like a lazy river. But to float down the lazy river.. ya need to go through the mental white waters rapids first.”

            That is such a good analogy, IMO. It pretty much sums up my own chase.

            Here are the things I believe the nine clues relate to:
            7 distinct places creating 6 “nodes” in the search.
            Place the nodes together and you reveal a pattern.
            The pattern is used to find the hiding place.

            In order to reveal this, I did not need to know the number of clues. However, I did need to apply more than one technique, and so probably used considerably more than nine “steps” to finalize the pattern.

            IMO, it might be better to concentrate on nine specific words rather than nine sentences.

      • Jeremy –
        You begin your search WWWH, but it’s not the first clue. It’s far too ambiguous. My opinion.

      • JP,

        You said: “the other is you don’t need nine clues to find it (which he’s also said).”
        So where did Forrest say that you don’t need nine clues to solve the chase?

          • Well he doesn’t say you ‘don’t need to solve all nine clues’ he says “if you can solve the first few clues ” you can find it. There’s quite a difference there as well. The implication IMO is that solving the first few clues leads to solving the others, not that the others aren’t required. Think you are stretching this assumption.

          • It’s just an example of how the nine sentences may be the nine clues, Colokid. I wouldn’t read too much into it. I’m a full solve or else searcher.

    • Jeremy wrote: “I can think of at least two ways you can be instructed to start with the second sentence to find the treasure, and still be referencing nine sentences as nine clues. One is that the poem is circular, the other is you don’t need nine clues to find it (which he’s also said).”

      True, Jeremy, and I agree with much you said about the nine clues. And I could agree with both of the above concepts, except for one thing, I think Fenn himself ruled out the circular and the nine sentences equal nine clues concept

      ……………………….

      In the New Zealand interview, he said “The first clue in the poem is BIWWWH, that’s the first clue.”

      So, he not only said that the first clue of the nine clue sequence is BIWWWH.

      He also said that BIWWWH is the FIRST CLUE IN THE POEM….. that implies that there is no other clue(s) prior to ihe second stanza….. That would seem to completely rule out the entire first stanza/sentence being a CLUE.

      If there were another CLUE prior to the second stanza, whatever ‘number’ it might be in the sequence, he could not truthfully say that “BIWWWH IS THE FIRST CLUE IN THE POEM”!…..So, I must rule out the ‘circular’ concept. (and believe me, I don’t like one dang bit! 🙂

      )
      I’m not saying there is not information that is not necessary in the fisrt stanza…..it is just NOT a clue.

      Thanks for starting this thread, Jeremy. (CAPS aren’t yelling, just emphasis)

      Seeker, I guess I made myself out to be a liar…..no will power?…… but, I’m tryin’ real hard! 🙂 

      • @locolobo:

        “…he could not truthfully say…”

        You know, running theme here, but that’s entirely your perception of what he can and can’t do. His may vary 🙂

        People don’t really make true statements. They make statements that they believe to be true. If the poem is circular, and the first clue is “Begin it…”, and the very first line of the poem is the last clue you want people to consider, when you say the first clue is the first clue in the poem, you’re saying exactly what you mean to say.

        I don’t know if the poem is circular. I don’t know what Forrest believes. I know people say things that are wrong believing them to be correct.

        This is what I do know: When Forrest said to “halo” that he didn’t intend there to be nine clues, that there just happened to be nine when he counted, and he only counted them after he had written nine sentences, then nine clues unintentionally appearing is tantamount to time travel if they are not the same thing. That’s just basic Arrow of Time reasoning. When evaluating the truthfulness of statements, I err on the side of time travel not being possible 🙂

        But, I come back to my “thought to ponder”: What is really the point of counting clues? Is this The First Distraction?

        • Time traveling is possible how humans understand time, you do it every time you travel across the country and move through the timezones.

          I once tried to come up with a solve that tied that idea in.

          • I suppose I should comment and say that technically speaking moving through time zones isn’t actually time travel 🙂

            However, I will also clarify that people do, in fact, move forward in time, so technically, also, time travel does exist.

        • Jeremy,
          I think Loco makes a valid observation with the NZ statement. Honestly, I’ve been trying hard to follow your logic and it just doesn’t compute for me. Why is it inconceivable that nine clues and nine sentences is just a coincidence? Your insistence is a bit baffling. It’s fine if that’s just the way you see it but your inability to accept a possible coincidence is no proof of anything being presented here.

          IMO it’s far easier to justify that all the clues are included in stanzas 2-4 than to justify a circular arrangement.

          As to your point about counting clues: Fenn has provided an important boundary condition as to what we need to look for. Seeker pointed this out up thread. We’re not looking for 2 pieces of information or 20…we’re looking for 9. I agree no need to force clues with the counting but if we choose to believe what he tells us then it’s valuable to narrow down whats required instead of leaving the whole thing open ended.

          • Nicely said Colokid…I choose to believe what I hear. Straight forward….not misleading comes to mind. Thanks for that input.

          • It’s not inconceivable, it’s just very unlikely. No one said anything about proof. What I asked was which makes more sense: A) There’s a strange and unlikely coincidence or B) The nine sentences are the nine clues.

            If it isn’t strange to you or unlikely that nine would coincidentally be the unintentional count of clues, after the poem was already written and already had nine sentences, then yeah A) would be the one you choose. Obviously, to date, it’s the one that most people choose. It’s surprising to me that people don’t find that weird at all, but maybe I didn’t explain it as well as it deserves.

          • Jeremy,
            The reason I like that you brought this up is this; looking at the poem to find 9 of anything ~right from the get-go~ has split the thought process right down the middle… thinking it must be one or the other, right?

            We have stanza 1 [ in it’s basic simplest reading ] Something was done [As I have gone]… a past tense telling, if you will.
            Stanza 5 give us a question to ponder, and an answer to the question. This seems to be in present tense [ I must go].

            Then what we have is two stanza in the middle that basically saying we ‘should have been’ wise to have ‘found’ something [ regardless of literary correctness ] this sounds like something needed to be done prior, or at least understood how to ‘find’ [have found] something beforehand. {decipher the clues needed, beforehand, in theory}

            The idea is… we need to solve 9 clues to ‘find’ where someone has gone and why someone must go, line of thinking. [I hope, I explained all that crap to be understandable in thought]

            MY point is… whether 9 clues equal 9 lines or 9 sentences, doesn’t seem as important as to understanding what is going on in the rest of the poem, first.

            I think fenn’s ATF comments ‘need to know where to start’ ‘need to start at the beginning’ could be alluding to stanzas 1 and 5 and 6 as well… needs as much thought, as a single line in stanzas 2, which is where the first clues is located within the poem. [ and told to follow the “clues” in consecutive order ].

            Your question implies, which would you choose? ~ 9 line or 9 sentences… I think there is a 3rd option that is not discussed much.

            Do we need to understand something long before we start thinking about looking at the clues themselves?
            Is it just our nature in reading the challenge, to jump the gun, and skip over most of the poems [ by 1/2 ] and concentrate on the meat of it all.

            As you implied, it seems all the solves we have read are about 9 things [ whether using 9 line {more than often} or 9 sentences ] and notta on a reasoning that involves the entire poem.

            “What surprises me a little is that nobody to my uncertain knowledge has analyzed one important possibility related to the winning solve.”
            IS that a clue? or something else needed to be considered?

      • LOL… Ya jus followin ta rules..
        Hotel Rules; You can check out any time you like, but you can never leave.
        Notification from the; Manager, Desk-Clerk, Maintenance Department… and Janitorial Services~ {Cuz someone needs to keep the crap from backing up}

        • We now have proof that when f used biwwwh in the poem that is the first clue. So, it makes sense that the simple definition of the word begin is…you guessed it, begin.

          Could be the same for a word in the first stanza. The word I’m thinking about is “hint”. Is it more likely than not that the word hint in that stanza actually means hint and not clue or that it does mean clue? I will wager no one can convince me that hint means clue.

          • James,
            We can look at warm as the hint, and waters halt as a clue. We also could look at begin it where, the waters begin to halt, and not so much where the waters stop per se.
            I mean, we could take hint as to whatever riches means.. riches in knowledge of new and old, or riches of wealth new and old. Of even new and old as hinting to opposite, or even time, as to younger to older, or past and present… the poem does seem to jump around from past tense to present tense.

            We could also think along the lines that the hinting within the poem [ if there is hinting ] could fall into stanzas 5 and 6, and stanza 1 is just relaying that. Seriously, how would we know what anything truly is without some kinda information… whether from the book or the poem.

            If we simply start out in thought that anything make sense by one definition of a word, imo we just lost the battle. Obvious or simple in meaning to me would mean; searchers who actually deciphered the first two clues would have, at the very least, known they did…[ and as of now maybe four clues deciphered in order ]. The problem is, some did indicate to fenn just that, and where they traveled, [right pass everything] and obviously missed the whole thing.

            So maybe, we need to know more about begin it or begin it where, as in regards to; where the water starts and stops and why, or when the water became ‘warm’ or stop being warm?
            Because, just a simple deciphering of the clue[s] or single common meanings of words didn’t seem to be so simple.

            I could assume that those searchers failure to produce other clues and the chest might be because they were only thinking the simple obvious, and missed the possibilities.

            All we have to go by is the authors idea if hints vs. clues… a hint only help with a clue. We need to decipher the clues… yet even then, it doesn’t seem simple to understanding it.

          • Seeker, I just posted my thought above in relation to Jeremy’s post about nine clues = 9 sentences or not.

            I just kept it intentionally simple as pertaining to that discussion. I didn’t want to overthink it and get into deciphering the hints and clues per se.

            Just that any searcher that correctly figured out that biwwwh is the first clue, before seeing f’s comment on such, might have simply defined begin as begin. No need to go into further, extraneous detail.

  31. @Jeremy P. interesting, was just now reading the poem and thought that the very last sentence isn’t a clue at all but an ‘offer’ of sorts…and I don’t get much out of the fifth stanza as for clues/directions/map….however, the ‘hear me all and listen good in the 6th…willing to bet that is part of the location in some fashion.

    Am I the only one who sees the great big white arrow pointing downward in the canyon in the sketch page 99 TTOTC, lol? IMO

    • I saw that arrow, so my solve is a spot down in a canyon 10 mi (not too far to walk) from a bombed out Vietnamese cliff-side gun bunker under a palm tree at least 8.25 mi north of Santa Fe. Honestly, GE hasn’t yielded many good options.

      • Maybe too specific Aardvark… could just be an AF training base, then some checkerboard farmland, then the canyon.

  32. does Saging Sta mean anything to anyone i think it is a clue but i could be crazy

    thank You for Your time

  33. Jeremy- I think the whole nine clue thing is a boondoggle.
    If there are a few words that won’t help you find the chest, it would seem to me that almost every word is important. Why would you limit your thinking by trying to break the puzzle down to clues or sentences, when you must understand nearly every words’ second layer meaning.

      • I know it’s wise not to discount any word(s) in the poem. Has anyone opined on the punctuation marks? Maybe WWWH is at the end of the sentence at “walk”.

    • I doubt that the clues can be isolated to singular words or groups of words… like most poetry I believe every stanza and line says something pertaining to the treasure hunt and most relay directions that aid the finding of the treasure… but I could be wrong… I’ve come up with a compelling solution but am challenged to determine a clear division between nine separate clues.

  34. There has been a lot of talk on what the nine clues are and how they are in the poem.

    My thoughts are the clues run stanza one thru stanza six, with each sentence being an individual clue.

    The 2nd stanza / sentence is where to start your search from, while the 1st stanza / sentence is a clue to the location of the “correct” Begin it where warm waters halt ………..

    Stanza one is one clue, stanza two has two clues and so on for the rest of the poem, nine clues.

    This is just my opinion. What do you think of this possibility?

    • @Jim et al
      It feels to me that stanza one helps with a location confirmation but no clues or hints, more of an introduction, his treasures are his prized flys for fishing, he fishes alone, old and new riches are various sizes/ages of fish! (sometimes I think of the whole poem as the journey of the spawning salmonoid).

      I feel it’s over by stanza 4, the marvel gaze is the finder looking at the contents of the TC, take the chest and get! The remaining stanzas are poetic conclusions, wrapping it up. Did he not hide the TC and then finalize the poem for publication? Or did I read some misinformation?

      To me the map page 99 represents the big guns of YSNP with all the tourist/characters (Mad Max Cartoon looking characters hiding under the trees, spy vs spy) and big guns/federal regulations/bureaucracy – He’d loved to have bombed them! lol!

      So, if he is flying north (11 O’clock) and YSNP is on the east, then the TC is to the North West of YSNP and the valley of the giants, (Jolly Green Giant ag lands), in a canyon that faces east with a drainage that flows into the Madison or?

      Of course it’s all been searched but not well enough. Something is deterring searchers (no place for the meek). Is it a no trespassing sign even though walking along the river banks should be permissible, the ‘put in’ location is public accessible, (a public road/bridge crossing) the river….IMO, my imagination is in overdrive this morning, the coffee is working! Best to all!

  35. Jeremy P., your point is a good one to ponder. Whether intentional or not, the fact is that the Poem contains nine clues as per Fenn’s own words. To find the treasure a searcher needs to decipher the nine clues to retrieve the treasure. That part is magical only because Fenn has dared everyone to get out there and give it a shot…or two…or two hundred and folks are actually doing that.
    The truth is, that as participants, we each have a massive amount of info to process to come to our own conclusions as to what Fenn has been trying NOT to tell us for several years. Is it coincidence that there are nine sentences that convey nine unintentionally counted clues? Only Fenn can say for sure. What searchers are left with are a bunch of open ended ATF statements that could mean a multitude of different things. The questions that folks have asked over the years have for the most part been not really clear cut…so Fenn has been safe in answering them. The really clever questions (that have been disclosed) he has declined.
    Recently a few landmark revelations…WWH, not under water, Not near the RG etc., have surfaced and blown many hopeful solves out of the water. I suspect many have started over or quit. There are some that have realigned what they thought were clues and now suggest they are hints because their solve is too good to toss. As time ticks on, I have to remember that we only have what Fenn has given us to help find the treasure. His comments about consecutive, straight forward, Poem= map, most of the places the clues refer to, if you knew the geographical location, marry the poem to a map, and on and on…seems to indicate that there are more than a few “places” to decipher. Are there nine places ? That is a good $64K question. I will add that when he talks about ” precise” it makes me wiggle in my seat quite a bit, and makes me think real hard about how that could be with only nine clues in a vague six stanza Poem/map. I do get what you are trying to say though…and I do not subscribe(intentionally) to the nine sentence/nine clue theory. Why did he have to say there were nine clues anyway? He sure has a lot of nerve…

    • The poem should be solved precisely, but the search area
      will still be larger than a 12′ radius circle. All IMO.

  36. As I have gone alone in there

    There is a gold frog in the chest.

    This chase is extremely interesting to say the least. However, it’s one year later and I’m still asking the same questions. 🙂

  37. looking at wwwh I see that some of the clues have nothing to do with the clues that tells us what is wwwh – and imo here are some clues that I think that do.—— beginning with wwwh (yes)- and take it in the canyon down-(no)- not far but to far to walk (no)- put in below the home of brown (yes)- no place for the meek(no) -the end is ever drawing nigh(no)there be no paddle up your creek (yes)-just heavy loads (yes) waters high (yes) this is just an opinion this is the only clues that tells you what is what – the other clues tell how far to go they give direction – where to find hob – the blaze -imo

  38. IMHO:
    I believe you have to take the nine lines and subtract from the 24 lines.
    Thus you have 15 lines.
    If you take what Fenn says he did (13) and take the nine he says you need to find the treasure: It reads very distinctly..
    There are two lines at the end that set the method to find the treasure.
    Cottonwoods and Aspen Trees are “Whispering pines”
    American Indians leaving trail signs.
    You have to find where to start looking. So;
    “And take it in the canyon down” IMHO a double clue.
    Where the area is and the direction to take once you have “Put In”
    Look up the definition of a canyon: look up the example in Spanish and you find the location.
    “Put in below the home of Brown” IMHO is a double clue.
    “Put in” tells you to start here. And the home of Brown is a cattle ranch.
    How now brown cow.
    “There’ll be no paddle up your creek” Again a double clue. Means you are looking for a stream of water as describes in the canyon clue. However it is not a stream to place a canoe. So it is not wide nor deep. But it also tells you to go upstream. Yet you are going down a trail but you must follow the water “Up stream”
    Does this make sense to anyone?

    BTW “Begin it where warm waters halt”
    Is not a dam, not a pool, not a pond not a lake but could be a basin or an area with Basin in its’ name
    I believe I have named five of the clues.

    • “The Thrill of The Chase,” “No Place For Biddies” chapter, page 21, in part:

      ‘And just to prove the point, when I walked to school I always watched where I put my feet on the sidewalk. “Step on a crack and break your mother’s back.” I always remembered that one, and that’s why my mother was so proud of me.’

  39. Definition of canyon
    (Physical Geography) a gorge or ravine, esp in North America, usually formed by the down-cutting of a river in a dry area where there is insufficient rainfall to erode the sides of the valley.
    a deep narrow valley with steep sides and often with a stream flowing through it. … … :
    a deep valley with steep rock sides and often a stream or river …

    A “river in the middle” is the key here just MHO

    • Or a U shaped valley cut by a glacier….and don’t forget those boxy coulees with vertical sides & flat bedrock bottoms.

  40. i also been wondering on how to use the final clues to solving the TC location

    like some people suspect you can make a X to find the Blaze then look down or below it and TC should be there

    im wondering what people think about down because i always assumed it was straight forward because you at the end of the quests but lately i been considering the Rainbow theories and instead of an X because FF flys planes and they triangulate i think. so if there was 3 markers of a funny shaped triangle i for the TC and the other 2 Blazes and if you stood on one spot and could see the other two so you looking down the Rainbow to TC location

    the endless scenarios that can be played out through this Poem makes my head hurt lol

  41. “I don’t want to broaden the clues and HINTS I’ve written about by POINTING them out. What surprises me a little is that nobody to my uncertain knowledge, has analyzed one important possibility related to the winning solve.”

    Seems to me that what we have kicked this thread down the road all day, when it may be a problem of simple definition, what if we all agreed, an ff agrees and admitted, is the first CLUE; WWWH re New Zeland interview and therefore since words in it should not be a wasted space, voila; the first Hint(s) inside of the poem are in stanza 1, which could be a little sprinkle, just like the weather when Forrest went to Borders and patiently waited for those BORDER LINE BIDDIES before paying “For Whom The Bell Tolls”

    ff has still never admitted that there are “hints” in the poem, but that warning he gave us to be careful about discarding perceived or unnecessary/unuseful poem words, do so at our peril. Imagine if a CLUE by his definition is an actual geographic location and a hint helps one to understand or define the succeeding clue/geographic place, clues are in succession, hints may not be since the Oracle said “sprinkled”, clues as stated will move us closer to the Special Place.

    Tom T ..just another Winter Thought, not..Let’s save the Rockies!

    • Tom T.
      You got me thinking.

      Sprinkled
      Raining at Boarders
      For whom the bell tolls

      All have one thing in common ..Sloane.
      He was the first weather man.
      He wrote:
      The sound of bells
      The little book of bells
      How can you forecast the weather.

      A while back I wrote Sloane off.
      Looks like I have to write him back in.

      GG

      • Sloane is involved in my solve, but I hadn’t picked up on the bells as being relating to him. Nice catch. I was thinking that the bell references referred to a bell curve in my creek. (The chapter titled Jump Starting the Learning Curve). For my solution, the clues take a person on a journey that is symbolic of significant people, things, events, and aspects of F’s life – his rainbow. So it isn’t just the final resting place, but the whole journey that’s important. Maybe that is the important what if.

  42. GG, who was obviously fond of Eric’s work, murals and paintings?

    Why does Jackie shed a different light on Forrest’s comments in Too Far chapter 45? Everyone knows Alexander Hamilton was shot in the side, not the head, why did that cost $10 if Franklin is on the $100? Why was it important to tell us about covering Philly with his thumb? Was it really a trigger finger ff had in mind? Catch 22 and a CRACK IN THE LIBERTY BELL, something he is dying to reveal? No it’s deeper than those Jake Booted gov’t inspectors who carted away stuff in a spurelous raid at his home.

    If we could connect the dots, and see the COMPLETE archecturial picture, then understand the lat/long. of this design. I can assure we are on the Itty bitty border line of a 10 and half inch X 10″ 1/2″ square.

    Tom Terrific, as in Enthusiastic about Savin the Rockies

    • Tom T,

      A conspiracy theory?
      Nah, I’m thinking there’s a more simple explanation. Why, because when the chase is done, the answer has to be obvious, how else the collective ‘forehead smack’ ???

      We don’t need any special knowledge (imo), Fenn’s methodology, the rhyme & reason will be well understood when we’re told the answer to this riddle.

      I believe Jeremy was pressing the ‘9 clues point’/ how many does it take to get to the chest. You know he’s probably right, Fenn has strongly suggested the treasure is at the blaze, & the blaze comes in 1/2 way thru the poem.

      I like the idea that Fenn tacked-on a few extra confirming clues, telling us we’re at the right spot, least it works for my approach.

      So Tom, have you/ will you ever cool on the notion of the treasure being in NM?

      • Theycallme 9, actually you are correct, IMO it is in NM, HOWEVER, you must travel into CO, at a distance of 90 miles due north, from SF, the flight steering or compass reading is or 360 or 0 degrees course to get there, if you travel by auto, count 90 miles on Hwy 285 from a point ar 66,000 rods north at Santa Fe, border, edge of the city limits at Camel Rock Monument, but another way to access in 1880’some was the D.R. train rails, no other access to this spot on the Blaze, impossible or just too far to walk from the city limits of Santa Fe, where the TC was last seen, it is an exact 90 miles to the turn and exact 22 miles too, we’ll “Quickly Down”, so read carefully what I wrote in the article “Winter Thoughts” type it on this blog search line and think about the 11 Border Crossings and little itty-bitty lines and a 500′ perpendicular drop to the Wood River below, beware, fishermen occasionally below.

        I may be wrong, but math has always served me well, 32 degrees and 37 degrees that is 5.00 degrees again, these are Borders and 90 was the North Pole when I last navigated in the Us Navy, where I worked as a Gyroscope Tech on Sperry and Arma flight and ship navigation systems, fire control etc, try floating two Arma dual rotars in a vat of mercury when they are 90 degrees opposed it will seek true North, ff was an extremely good pilot, in 1960’s we did not have GPS, so first layer of his architectural design was foundational and mathematical, second layer is IMO definitional, hey look a new word? ff is right, if people understand what you wana say, then it works.

        TomT

        Did anyone else notice how many posts and scrapbooks Forrest put out shortly after the “Winter Thoughts” article came out, train bells, telegraph (Singing Wire portrait), Eric Sloan, Jackie O, fear I am get lost in translation. ..just saYin

    • Tom, I suspect Fenn mean those flaws to be caught by people who pay attention to small the things… like measuring a horseshoe, thus confirming their importance. So, like his father, and maybe Mz. Ford, he is a teacher after all, and maybe we are better for his having passed our way.

    • Is that story of the $100 And $10 anywhere besides the book? I don’t have that one yet and someone stole trot out of my car.
      Alexander and BenF are the only 2 who were never President. If you blow the head off the (now) $10, you get a man with a waterfall and 2 stories and 2 sets of stairs. And 2 pics of him on the $10, his pic is left facing now but used to be the right and He has been on 7 different bills , numbers, ugh, and I always hates math like f2f hates Spanish class lol

  43. Holy Christmas Batman ! I am getting dizzy following this thread…who knew that nine clues/nine sentences, fabcde, 561234, BIWWWH etc. would make that many laps around the pond and not go anywhere….I love it !

  44. this is how I went on my trip to look for the treasure chest – I was traveling from the east going west when I came to the end of the road I would have to make a left (to the south) or a right (north)only because of wwwh keeping me from going any farther to the west- but knowing that hob was to the south there was no reason to go there sense every thing is north of hob – so I turned right (north)still being able to see wwwh I drove to where I couldn’t see it any more and that’s cause – that’s cause it came to the end at waters high the northest part of wwwh- and knowing that I had to be wise I kept driving north to the blaze- I drove past the blaze and came to a road that is between the blaze and in the wood where I parked – just then we started getting bad weather and couldn’t finish our walk to look for the chest

  45. when you draw a map for someone -you would show him or her and say you are here and mark it with an x and say go this way and that way – its not far but to far to walk- I think that the same goes for the whole poem from santa fe the treasure chest is not far but to far to walk- jmo

  46. What if the lines of the poem relate to Forrest’s experiences and there are places in the rocky mountains that geographically relate to them? Let’s say the 1st clue location relates to “Begin it where warm waters halt”. Trying to find the correct one is like a needle in a haystack. But what if the first line serves as a legend? As “eye” have gone alone in the(air). Now you have your vantage point and what you’re looking for. Let’s say that eye alone is where forrest covers his left eye. Now where in the Rockies would you have a right eye showing and the left eye covered? it’s also in the picture of him looking at gravestone in TTOTC. Where warm waters halt sounds like his experience bathing in the firehole. So from the air looking at firehole falls what do you SEE? P.S. use imagination and the terrain view.

  47. If one follows the clues exactly and if the searcher finds a blaze this way ,then and only then the blaze has to be the correct one no matter how ludicrous the solution is. I really think that we make our own clues in our mind but we should not follow our mind and follow the poem strictly. As I have said before, the searcher will be in denial when she or he correctly solves the poem. Do not give up hope the treasure has just to be there and nowhere else. I think the solution to the poem is so simple the solution to the poem is so simple that our brain does not catch the simplicity of it and makes it more difficult. The clues are not difficult we are the difficult ones. We are the ones who want the clues to be something they are not. This is like a marriage where the husband wants to change the way the wife is or vice versa. One cannot change the clues. The clues are what they are and we only have to accept them as such. Is somebody listening, and not hearing what I am saying? This is my opinion.RC

    • I see plenty of simple interpretations, but the poem is anything but simple. If you think this is going to be a walk in the park, you are dreaming. My opinion.

    • RC;

      Today is Monday, NOT Sunday. I am sure none of us need preaching to from someone who has yet to offer anything but boasts about how “HE” (you) is the only one among us to have “Seen the light”. Good bye RC. I shall never again read a post from you. Same old song. How sad. JDA

    • RC – I find that you do a lot of introspective self-talk in your comments. Continue on as you must.

    • RC, your comment has me wondering if you have understood the nine clues in the poem and are ready to retrieve the treasure chest. How long did it take you to figure out the poem, and are you ready to retrieve it?

    • Be patient RC. You know Rome wasn’t built in a day. The window has to be open to retrieve the chest. It’s almost time.

  48. I would like to talk about the first stanza. This stanza gives us the start of BWWWH and that’s why I consider the first stanza the first clue. A clue is evidence to solve a mystery or crime, and the only evidence to me is the poem so why not start at the beginning of the poem? We as human beings need time, and a place to go anywhere. If you are going to meet someone do we not say ” I’ll meet you at such place at such time?” We just have to have those two things. In order to find BWWWH you have to find the place fiirst, and not get carried away with what the poem seems to be saying but what is says. BWWWH is secondary to finding this place and if you try to find BWWWH first you are wasting your time in my opinion. RC

    • I agree. As ff stated there are a ton of places WWWH. The only way to find the right one is to use the first stanza.

  49. I posted this above but thought it would be better down here…lol.

    We now have proof that when f used biwwwh in the poem that it is the first clue. So, it makes sense that the simple definition of the word “begin” is…you guessed it, begin. As in, this is the first clue.

    Could be the same for a certain word in the first stanza. The word I’m thinking about is “hint”. Is it more likely than not that the word hint in that stanza actually means hint and not clue or that it does mean clue? I will wager no one can convince me that hint means clue.

    • James Fundamental,
      I posted a response above. But I would like your thoughts on this; ~ How does a hint help? in-regards to the poem. Does it mean only one simple thing?

      It doesn’t matter to me where the hints are located at this point. As fenn has stated, a clue get you closer to the chest… a hint helps with the clue. Hint; a slight or indirect indication or suggestion.
      Some other meanings of hint are;
      indicator
      sign or signal
      pointer
      insinuation
      hardly noticeable
      small amount? hmmm.
      etc.

      • Think a bit more here, does found and discover mean the same? We are told if we’ve “been wise and “found” the blaze…”
        Found means to come upon.
        discover means to know what you came upon.
        Put wise and found together [ lets say as hints ] Do we now know what we come upon?

        I get the gut feeling that if a searcher was to get most of the clues deciphered… they might walk right pass chest without knowing. That may seem conflicting to what fenn has said… but I’m still dumbfounded as to how the first two clues and maybe the first four have been deciphered and still the same old same old… they didn’t know it.

        IMO only… there seems’ to be more to solving the clues than just deciphering clues. Maybe that is why fenn stated; Nail down the first clue? not just deciphering, but “discovering why? ~ the reason for it to be a clue.

        Just thoughts………

        • I know f has stated that the first 2 clues were found but it sounds like there might be some debate on whether the first 4 was a statement from him. Does anyone know for sure?

          It is a big difference, I would think, between getting the first 2 and getting the first 4. The first 2 would suggest that maybe they just didn’t start walking at the right spot and drove past. If this is the case then the TC could be within only 200 ft of the road. If was 4 clues that they got it seems like the remainder of the path would be much easier yet they still walked past.

          • Are there signs that people are getting closer to solving your puzzle? How many clues have people solved now?
            Searchers have come within about 200 feet [seems to answer the first part]. Some may have solved the first four clues, but I am not certain.[seems to answer the second part]

            Was something mentioned in an e-mail, in person, read on a blog?
            The problem for us is we don’t know how fenn came up with the information on “some may have…” It’s the only comment I know of, at this time, about the first four clues.

            Yet, it’s does seem, some have mentioned the first four clues – as “solved,” in the correct order that fenn would know of the correct order. He just doesn’t know if they know.
            Something stated by some searchers[s] must have triggered an indicator to fenn for him to make that comment.

            The question still remains… why don’t folks know a deciphered clue? Isn’t that the whole point ~ to decipher clues. There has to be more to what WWH refers to than just a place on a map… because folks have deciphered and been there, and at the second clue {and maybe, just maybe, the first four clues}.

            Am I the only one who thinks that there is more to this than just stomping out references of one place to another? Something is missing in the thought process.

            LOL, and for the life of me… I can’t understand how so many refer to driving as a part of this when fenn has said, searcher walked past the remaining clues, and the chest. And he stated he followed the clues, and he walked less than a few miles twice in one afternoon.
            [ with the ATF comments ]

            {in part} What is wrong with me just riding my bike out there and throwing it in the “water high” when I am through with it? {this was a long “Forrest gets mail” so you can look it up yourself}

            My point is, it would seem that the use of a car to follow the clues might not be as reliable a thought for a searchers movements of the clues.
            If a bike could have been used… what is the need for two trips?

            We have been told he did it that way, walked…AND… has suggest to us to do the same.
            “If you can’t make two trips from your car to your solve in several hours, then don’t go.”

            Sure, I could be all wet, and the chest is in water too… but why tell us we should make two trips [ the same thing he told us he did ] IF I can use a bike?

            Just more pondering….

          • I think these comments are applicable to the discussion…

            “Q. Are there signs that people are getting closer to solving your puzzle? How many clues have people solved now?
            A. Searchers have come within about 200 feet. Some may have solved the first four clues, but I am not certain. ”

            “Richard: What is the poem?
            Forrest: Well, it… there are nine clues in the poem, and if you can follow the clues, ah, one right after the other, they will take you to the treasure chest.
            Richard: If you can follow the clues…
            Forrest: There is a big if there; it is not easy, but it certainly isn’t impossible. People have been within 200 feet for sure, because they tell me where they are.”

            “You just can’t get out of your car and walk over in the woods and walk to it.”

        • Yeah I’m dumbfounded too as to how someone got 4 clues or more and still hasn’t gotten the chest… that was quite a while ago too. Maybe they never fully reached the point of enlightenment required to be truely confident.

        • Hi Dampenedmyth: yes, the 4-clue possibility came out in Forrest Gets Mail #9 which was in November 2015. So I can say with certainty that he wasn’t referring to me, LOL. 😉 I didn’t solve my first clue (IMO) until June 2016. Wouldn’t surprise me if Forrest’s possible four-clue solver at that time was Diggin Gypsy, and if it wasn’t her, then I doubt it’s someone that posts here regularly if at all.

      • okay Seeker here’s an example…
        I was convinced the Albright “Visitor” center in YNP was the 1st clue.(didn’t really work out)
        Now I don’t expect YOU to point out the dozens of possible related hints from TToTC…seeing how your book vanished.

        .UNESCO sites, 1st site in USA
        oh, let’s see. How tall were those trees in Vietnam 200, 300, 500 ft high?…guess what other site is a Unesco site, Redwoods park—-everyone should know these are the tallest trees in the world

        ..it’s the 1st bathroom when entering thru the very first entrance
        …former officer’s barracks, picture Fenn sitting in his tidy whiteys @ the typewriter
        ….yeah, the building itself is over 100yrs old……….oh I give up! Maybe wingnut/lugnut can expound on it some

      • Seeker, I think the few hints are huge. My best guess is that they help pinpoint the correct starting point….the correct wwwh.

    • I think more important in the first stanza is the word “secret”. He uses that word in the book, “his secret plan”. When referring to burying bells. His secret plan, I can keep my secret where, Quite possible the first stanza is describing a bell. Makes sense, to also have a bell among the path before the chest. 100 years down the line, finding the bell first, then ringing it, will let f’s spirit know that someone is there, to get his chest, he’s watching. Ring my bell so I will know.
      He has already told us the clues start at line number 5, but we cannot discount any words. So what’s in the first stanza, instructions to a bell’s location? Could be. Since his “secret” is not the chest but a bell.
      Now, if you are going to bring up a clue/hint debate, just look on his website, clues 10,11,12,13. Do those sound like clues? Of course not, but they are. You are spiraling down a rabbit hole if you are to tackle that debate. We don’t know what f thinks a clue is. Until someone has the chest, nobody will know what the clues are. So, all the clues cannot be figured out with just the poem. Especially if we cannot figure the first clue, or know it until we actually have the chest, his words. A lot of people email him, a lot of places to start. Goes to figure someone close to the area, starting in their area, will guess the first two clues. A picture sent without a good explanation could be the spot of the 4th clue of his. The thing is, he never mentions the third clue. The one little Indi cannot get passed. It’s more likely this is line number 9, since meek is childlike. Childlike definition has meek in it. It seems that the third clue is line 9, and would be a BOTG type of clue. Little Indi cannot know it from home and cannot go passed it.
      All this is my opinion of course but does make sense. The poem will give you an exact spot, we all know this, but we cannot solve all the clues from it. So, do you want to solve the poem and get an exact spot, or solve for the clues which you cannot be confident you can do? Solve the poem, eliminate the guess work, and like f noticed at the end, the clues will present themselves.
      I’m not talking about the one that has solved the poem, has gone out to their spot, knows all the clues because they have either seen or worked them out, and just didn’t do what they were suppose to do in the end, so no chest. That person could very well have it all figured out. I’m talking the ones trying to solve the clues from the get go. If little Indi “did the math”, she might know where the spot is, but once boots on the ground takes her to the third clue, she’s done.
      Hint in the first stanza is just that, a hint. Unless that hint is part of the coordinates the poem offers for an exact spot. The clues are your path, in a clue sense of the word, the forth line is a hint, but could go with the seconds of a coordinate, making it a clue, since coordinates will get you closer to the chest, but not a clue in the sense of the path. Here is a situation that hint means clue. what’s the wager? I have a lot more.

    • Fundamental…your assessment seems reasonable on the surface. “Begin…” could be that straight forward and make sense( as in…the first clue). And “hint” in the first stanza could very well be…just that, a hint. That makes sense too, if looked at that way. Following that line of thinking…would “cease” in the fourth stanza actually mean, that is the end of the journey? One just needs to retrieve the chest without tarrying too long with a marvel gaze….Is that what you are saying?

  50. Seeker, if his statement was “walked right past” then it is a good point that it would not be driving. The confusing part though is if he is talking about the 2 nd clue then it seems to only refer to driving to a spot. Even if you say, like WymustIgo stated, the first clue is the entire sentence “Begin it where warm waters halt And take it in the canyon down,”. That means the second clue is “Put in below the home of Brown”. This seems like the place to start walking If that is the case then as soon as they started walking the walked right past it never making it to the third clue?

    If however they made it to the 4th clue and walked past it then it would make more sense to me. At the same time it seems like the poem is so much more doable by the time you get to the 4th clue.

    • Aaron,
      I would like very much for the first clue to be as such, and all we need to do is figure it out and go to hoB. However, { and nope, I’m done look up full comments for others anymore, so I hope you remember this, or look it up yourself for clarification }

      Fenn said about stanza 2 [ after the interviewer read that stanza ]… it sound like 3 or 4 clues, and when the last two line in stanza 3 was read, fenn said it sounds like a couple of clues.

      If so, the first stanza sounds like 3 or 4 clues… I don’t see how clue one being wwh and clue two could be hoB. The 3rd clue might be possible, But clue # 2? I’m not to sure… then again! maybe he just felt didn’t want to give out a direct answer and hands us a clue and/or it’s order number.

      • If “Begin it where warm waters halt And take it in the canyon down”
        is clue 1 then HOB would be #2. If not then HOB is clue #3. That would make NPFTM clue #4. That seems like the more logical place to walk past of the rest of the clues. This is all I am trying to figure out. It just seems that if you get to NPFTM, and we know f said the clues get easier, how did they mess up and walk right past it? Perhaps clue 5 is tougher then we may think..

        • I have never believed that the clues became easier after hoB. You may KNOW that you are on the right track, and that makes it a bit easier, but “solving” the clues after hoB easier? I do not think so. At least not for me. JDA

        • As a note, f’s recently found interview where he specifically said what the first clue is, f made absolutely no mention of the second line of the second stanza as being a part of the first clue, so trying to attach it to the first clue is probably not the wisest move a searcher could make.

        • I agree 1000%, JCM. Forrest’s 2013 radio interview comments about the first clue were restricted to WWWH. Expanding that to include the entire sentence is introducing personal assumptions. Isn’t it simpler to assume I clue 1 is WWWH, and clue 2 is TIITCD, and that for the first several years of the Chase that’s the only thing (a few) searchers solved correctly? Seems to me they DROVE that canyon down, they didn’t walk it. I frankly don’t understand the reluctance of many searchers to consider the sensibility of the notion that you aren’t walking until you’ve “put in”. Too far to walk is … too far to *walk*. Therefore Forrest didn’t walk it, otherwise you’re accusing him of being deceptive. Scrapbook 35 (I believe) suggests subterfuge on this score is unlikely.

        • Hi Aaron — you have an unnamed assumption: namely that “Not far, but too far to walk” is not a clue, otherwise there is no way hoB can be clue #3. In my opinion, I think if you’ve only solved 2 clues, you have not solved hoB. And I think the reason Forrest jumped from “searchers have solved two clues” to some may have solved four (skipping over the possibility of only solving 3) is that the third clue is a serious choke point.

          • Zap,
            Lets go for a ride. I’ll drive… we are at wwwh. We drive in or even around a canyon instead of walking somewhere.
            How do we find hoB? Would that be from the vehicle as we drive along or is it viewed from wwwh?

            In one case [ driving along ] we are doing nothing more than ~eye spy hoB. and no map needed.
            In the other case [ viewing from wwwh ] Is hoB only found from that point alone or is it not found on a map.

            I mean, what is the point to having the “right” map… a “good map” with more details or searching GE if hoB can only be found by seeing it from wwwh? When does the “planning” come into affect or the “certainty of the path beforehand” [ which was the very first warning fenn ever gave, stating it in the book ]

            Then again, IF hoB is on a map… why would we be concerned with wwwh? or canyon down? or even care about too far to walk… we just go straight to hoB. That would be a certainty beforehand piece of information in my book.

            But hold on one sec. IF you can find no place for the meek or heavy loads or water high and fenn’s sunken bicycle on all these maps… why do we need to be botg at all?

            It would seem that these maps we all are brewing over, told to look at, are pretty much useless after discovering wwh if other location are not found on maps. So exactly when does the path become certain to a searcher “beforehand” if we don’t know much of the path prior and after hoB?

            Don’t get me wrong… we have been told we need to ‘observe’ as well ‘plan’ – that seems to imply both the mappings and on the ground. But we’re right back to IF all a map does if find wwh… Why do we need to research anything else.. at all.. think of anything else..? just jump in the car and drive until we hit hoB and we’re golden.

            I’m being completely serious here…
            Oh! C’mon Seeker just find wwh and take it in the canyon down… easy peasy. Just look for Brown something that is not on a map. Or find wwh and a canyon trace your finger to hoB on a map and then go there… well what about no place for the meek? ON a map? Not on a map? I surely don’t want to get a flat is a place like that, right? maybe we jump back in the car and drive around that as well. Is heavy loads and water high only found with botg?

            All the searchers we have been told about, that deciphered the first two clue and were on site, didn’t understand a critical piece of information, didn’t understand the ‘significance’ of where they were…

            IMO………. driving, hiking, wrong turns, missing later clues and all the other possible excuses for not finding the chest, don’t help much at all.
            It “seems to me’ the problem is right at the start. Not understanding why wwwh needs to be nailed down.
            Because correctly deciphering the location and being there doesn’t seem to be enough… having deciphered it, and are in the correct location, beforehand and move with confidence of the correct path ahead of us.

            I’m really having a hard time picturing dad telling the kiddies… ok everyone stick your heads out the window, we need to spot hoB, and if we can’t find the chest..we’ll drive all the way back to clue one.

            As JCM posted earlier;
            Richard: What is the poem?
            Forrest: Well, it… there are nine clues in the poem, and if you can follow the clues, ah, one right after the other, they will take you to the treasure chest.
            Richard: If you can follow the clues…
            Forrest: ***There is a big if there***; it is not easy, but it certainly isn’t impossible. People have been within 200 feet for sure, because they tell me where they are.”

            “You just can’t get out of your car and walk over in the woods and walk to it.”

            IMO, there is more to following / Follow the clue, than we think.

          • Seeker, that’s really well put, and I hope you don’t mind if I jump in and give some of my own thoughts (and Colokid, if you’re reading, please don’t feel the need to point out yet again that everything I say is discredited in your eyes).

            IMO, one of the reasons WWWH is so important, and it’s not a good idea to jump straight to hoB without first nailing WWWH, is the “drawing.” It would be almost impossible to find the TC if you don’t have the plan of the Chase mapped out. I’m not going to say why that is, other than to point out that Fenn has tried to rule out the potential for shortcuts. In other words you can’t find the hidey space without knowing what to look for – and the plan of the Chase gives you that.

            Also, I don’t think you’ll find hoB looking out of a car window for some sort of object. It’s something that needs to be found with imagination. I believe Strawshadow has discovered it, too. He may be willing to give a few more hints. But whatever you believe hoB to be, it’s not the “end of the line” – you need more than two points to create a meaningful drawing – and so a few more clue solutions are required…

          • Good Morning Seeker;

            I think that you stated the problem quite nicely. For me, having a good TOPO map and Google Earth have allowed me to find almost every clue. Without a “good” map,, I doubt that I would have been able to find the clues that I have found. No, everything can not be found, but most can.

            BotG ARE necessary – especially at the end, but without a map to lead me, there would have been no confidence, and a good map told me in what direction I needed to go once I had BotG. Mumble- Mumble – JDA

          • Seeker, sometimes distinct geographical areas are named differently on different maps.

          • I’m not going to argue ‘how’ you get to HOB (walk/drive) but I would argue that WWWH should be considered a starting point and Canyon down gives to a bearing to follow that points to HOB. If you locate WWWH and Canyon on a map you now have a virtual arrow to help you locate HOB. I can’t get a real distance out of NTFBTFTW…..it sounds relative like saying ‘it’s a ways out here’ but if your proceed in the right direction you can’t miss it (HOB).

            To me, FTINPFTM sounds like a warning that this is where you leave a more civilized area and head into the deep woods (at or near HOB). Do you park at WWH or HOB….not sure? Sure this sounds way too basic for a lot of folks but he did say to keep it simple.

            I’m not sure worrying about why other people walked past the TC is going to tell us anything. There could be dozens of reasons. It’s like reading a solve on this site and wondering what that person could have been possibily thinking to come up with all the crazy ideas. The latest installment is a good example. So convoluted I couldn’t even read the whole thing. Just sayin.

          • Zap, it is hard to tell if one can consider NFBTFTW a clue IMO. This is a description of distance and that we need to drive it but it isn’t a location is it? I feel like ff is just leaving it up to us to figure out what clues are. He has said things like some may have found 4. Also, during the reading of the poem “that sounds like 3 or 4 clues”. If he knows exactly what he considers the fourth clue and he is emailed specific clues people have found why say may have? Perhaps it is just that he doesn’t want to give too much away but it could also be that he thinks it seems like 9 clues and wants us to figure it out. In any case, I agree that based on what he said clue 3 seems like a choke point as well as possibly clue 5.

          • Colokid ~’I’m not sure worrying about why other people walked past the TC is going to tell us anything.’

            Personally, it’s not about walking past the “TC” at all, and more about how searchers didn’t understand something from the get go… just ‘some’ quote I know you’re similar with… but are related to my point;

            Searchers have routinely revealed where they think the treasure was hidden and walked me through the process that took them on that course. That’s how I know a few have identified the first two clues. Although others were at the starting point I think their arrival was an aberration and they were oblivious to its connection with the poem. Playing a hunch is not worth much in the search and those who start out by looking for the blaze, are wasting their time.f

            Several months ago some folks correctly mentioned the first two clues to me in an email and then they went right past the other seven, not knowing that they had been so close.

            Hello Forrest
            May I ask – is it still true that now, even with searcher numbers doubling in the last year, you still don’t know of anyone who has solved beyond the first two clues?
            Emily
            Dear Emily
            Searchers continue to figure the first two clues and others arrive there and don’t understand the significance of where they are. f
            ———————————————-
            It’s one thing to work on a hunch and land at the correct starting point not knowing the significance. But we have deciphered clues and those folks literally going by [ walk, drive, hop skip jump ] everything we all have been looking for.

            Is that simply a mode of transportation problem?

            We have searchers deciphering, at least, some clues ‘prior.’ They travel [ from wherever ] to the first clue and then the second? [ I placed a ? mark only for the fact we don’t know how closely “related” those two clues are… and to my point ] Even when on site… what was the reason those first clues didn’t produce an accurate path of all the clues that were walked past [ Gone BY for the sake of argument ]

            LOL I mean, did they walk past or gone by all the clues from a such a distances those other clues could never have been seen? Nothing was there in the path from their starting point that suggest this is the next and the next and the next clue?
            Is it all being missed because the clues themselves are not understood properly or commonly?

            OR is the first clue still missing something that nobody understands yet?
            I think it’s very important to attempt to see why deciphered clues, and “the clue” we are told to nail down or stay home, is the same clue.
            ~”I think the problem that searchers make is that they don’t dwell long enough on the first clue.”

            Folks can argue mode of transportation as a reason those searcher messing up…
            I’m simply looking at … Who the heck doesn’t dwell on wwwh? Something is missing from all this easy to follow stomping and driving methods.
            Could this be that “important possibility” fenn talked about? [ being connected with nailing down the first clue]. It might be, it might not be… but lol, I hardly think going by all the clues falls down to… driving anything.

            I’m looking for the meat of a wrong understanding and not so much a simple wrong turn… I might be wrong in looking at it like this. But at least I’m looking at it.
            Again, for conversational purpose / analyzing… it’s not about searchers walking by the “TC” [ that’s hidden] as much as, walking by everything and being so “close” they didn’t know it or realize.

          • Colokid – Not that this adds any real understanding to NFBTFTW, but I have observed in my looking up of words that ‘not far’ is included in the definitions of both ‘near’ and ‘close’.

            Seems most people usually are focused only on what TFTW is as a distance, and not so much on NF or the ‘but’. My opinion is that TFTW is only a qualifier of the NF distance.

            I think it was about a year or so ago that I asked the question about being out in the wilderness and needing to go to a certain point away from you, at what distance would you get in a car and drive versus just walking it.

            I think that idea best sets the parameters for what NFBTFTW might be. I suspect that about 2-3 miles is on the minimum end of this ‘NF’ distance which would be a walk time of 40 minutes to 1 hour.

          • Hi Aaron,

            “It is hard to tell if one can consider NFBTFTW a clue IMO. This is a description of distance and that we need to drive it but it isn’t a location is it?”

            Everyone *thinks* it’s a distance, and a lot seem convinced that it must be 10 miles — even though that information is nowhere to be found in the poem. I say it isn’t a distance at all, and if I’m right then you can see why almost everyone is failing to get past the 2nd clue.

          • If you are right Zap, and it is not a distance, then it would seem to make more sense that people are not getting past the first clue.

          • My last post about getting tripped up on the first clue was a mistake. Totally understand what you are saying. Was busy and didn’t pay as much attention as I needed to before posting. I’m unsure what else it could be besides a distance but to come up with 10 miles seems like a stretch.

          • Hi Seeker,

            “Lets go for a ride. I’ll drive… we are at wwwh. We drive in or even around a canyon instead of walking somewhere.”

            So far so good. I’ll even qualify it: *in* the canyon rather than around.

            “How do we find hoB?”

            IMO, you will know what it is before you even leave home, but you are getting ahead of yourself — why are you looking for hoB? I think this is the big mistake that most of the two-clue solvers make: heading down their canyon looking for hoB because they think it’s the third clue.

            “Would that be from the vehicle as we drive along or is it viewed from wwwh?”

            If you can’t figure out what it is prior to leaving home, you’re not likely to solve it in the field. And (still IMO), hoB is not visible from WWWH, so physically being at the starting point would not give you extra information that you wouldn’t have just looking at maps or GE from home.

            “When does the “planning” come into effect or the “certainty of the path beforehand” [ which was the very first warning fenn ever gave, stating it in the book ]”

            The certainty comes from reasoning out the identities of the clues and finding their answers on a map (or maps). If you’ve only got WWWH when you leave home and you expect to solve the rest in situ, in my opinion you are wasting your time and money.

            “Then again, IF hoB is on a map… why would we be concerned with wwwh? or canyon down? or even care about too far to walk… we just go straight to hoB.”

            Because I don’t think you’ll ever figure out hoB without first solving WWWH, the canyon, and NF,BTFTW. The prior clues lead you to it — they’re contiguous. But hoB is not some obvious thing sitting there on the map waiting for you to see it. I believe it’s more subtle than that.

            “IF you can find no place for the meek or heavy loads or water high and fenn’s sunken bicycle on all these maps… why do we need to be botg at all?”

            Well, if you want to retrieve the chest, you’re going to have to be BOTG at ~some~ point! But I maintain there should be zero clue-solving on site. You either have it licked before you leave home, and can walk to the chest with confidence with a smile on your face, or you’re just going to have a nice vacation.

            “All the searchers we have been told about, that deciphered the first two clue and were on site, didn’t understand a critical piece of information, didn’t understand the ‘significance’ of where they were…”

            Absolutely agree. They thought NF, BTFTW was just some distance (whether specific or vague) and then arbitrarily picked some hoB that they thought made sense.

            “It ‘seems to me’ the problem is right at the start. Not understanding why wwwh needs to be nailed down.
            Because correctly deciphering the location and being there doesn’t seem to be enough… having deciphered it, and are in the correct location, beforehand and move with confidence of the correct path ahead of us.”

            If you’re at the starting point, but have bad directions from that starting point, you will obviously fail. Don’t get me wrong — WWWH is absolutely critical to solve first. Without it, you are completely dead in the water. But solving the starting point is obviously only the beginning. *ALL* the clues must be solved in order — they are specifically designed to be solved in order. You can’t just short-circuit them. You can’t just arbitrarily pick the right blaze out of ten billion blazes. By Forrest’s analogy, a recipe doesn’t just have ingredients and amounts — it has a correct order.

            I think the biggest objection that people have to my line of thinking is that it seems to fly in the face of Forrest’s desire to get people out enjoying nature. But the reality is that I don’t think anyone will be successful on their first trip out — there are too many opportunities to run off the rails with incorrect end-to-end solutions. The successful searcher will have to earn it by putting in the hours — both at home and in the field — trying ideas, failing, making adjustments, and trying again. “The blueprint is challenging so the treasure may be located by the one who can best adjust.”

  51. Thanks JCM, so about the comment is “You just can’t get out of your car and walk over in the woods and walk to it.” I’m guessing he means that you cannot just walk to it without following the clues. Is there another take on this?

    • Without going back to the whole article, or wherever it came from, I want to say the idea of it was the ease of just jumping out of your car and and is a very short walk to the chest… several hundred feet. It fits nicely with f’s less than a few miles statement and people going past the other 7 clues.

      • JCM, when he said a few miles are we sure it was a few miles total in the two round trips?

        • Here is the Q&A… I think most people go with this distance as from the car to the special spot.

          Q. I was wondering if you would be so bold as to give an estimate of how far you walked to hide the treasure after leaving your car: was it >10 miles, between 5 and 10 miles, between 1 and 5 miles, or less than 1 mile? ~Thanks, Ron
          A. Ron, your question sounds like a travelogue, but I’ll answer it. No, I don’t want to be that bold. But I will say that I walked less than a few miles if that will help. I just looked “few” up and one definition is “scant.” Why do I sound like I’m talking in circles? f

          Also considering f has said:

          “If you can’t make two trips from your car to your solve in several hours, then don’t go.”

          How far can you walk in 3 to 4 hours? Most people of average capacity should be able to do 2 miles an hour when out in the mountains, so low end would be 6 miles of total walking… or about 1.5 miles each leg of the trip in and out. As a reasonable possibility for a viable search area, I look for about a little less than a mile and up to two miles.

          • I have seen that quote and the answer of less than a few miles was to he question of how far to hide the treasure after leaving your car. That sounds like one trip but the question nor the answer was quite clear enough. Your estimate of a little less than a mile up to 2 miles does make sense though, thanks.

          • Hi JCM…

            I did a write up on this topic in the past…here is an excerpt…

            “Fenn said he did all of this in an afternoon, which I gauged to be approximately 6-8 hours of daylight.  I also believe he would have done this during Summer to maximize the time and daylight hours. If you convert walking time for an average man, it takes approximately 30 minutes to walk a mile.  If Fenn took two trips…each mile there and the back, would take him to walk it – in a forest, with a backpack – about 1.5 hours each way.  Multiple that by two, and you have expended at least three of the six hours walking.  If I am to add in trail markings, writing down the path being taken, and other things Fenn could have done, this path would fall well within the time allotted.  The time is well within the parameter of an “afternoon” and still within the “context” Fenn had stated.

            But this gives you just my perspective of a BOTG effort.

    • Some other form of (ground) travel besides “walking” is
      the reasonable way to get to the TC. This could include
      wading or climbing. All my opinion.

      • Remember that this is an 80 year old man. I did a little wading and climbing in my recent trek (about 3 or 4 hours) and there was no way I’d do that trip twice.

  52. Big Skip here:

    Yep…..He took the short cut (IMO)…He knew where he was going. He knew of it for many years. Made the poem and the clues to be almost impossible, but parked his car and walked to the spot probably passing only one or two clues. All in my most humble opinion.

    • Did f say something like the steps in the clues are the only way to get to the TC?

    • Big Skip – f has made two very specific comments about this idea which are 180 degrees opposite your thoughts here. You might want to look a little more deeply into this idea as it can make a huge difference in a place a person would consider as a viable location.

      • We then have to take into account: A polite like email from Kristie, who admits to being a desk person, prompts me to say that if you are walking long distances in search of the treasure you’re walking too far.
        Too far is what we are looking for from: not far but too far to walk.
        So, we are not looking to walk far, we are looking to walk too far. And, if walking long distances is walking too far, then simply, we have a long distance to walk.

  53. Big Skip;

    IF, and that is a BIG “if” my solve is correct, there is only one road in, and one road out. There is only one trail in, and only one trail out, unless you want to hike an additional 20 miles or so. The scenery would be nice, but hardly worth the effort, unless you are young and just love hiking – with an additional 42 lbs on your back. Just musing – JDA

  54. Most People think that a bronse box ,would be bright and shine like polished bronse . But It can Look brown in color. go to a cemetary and Look at a bronse Marker on a Grave it is brown in color not shiny.

  55. Big Skip here:

    JCM….My solves are following the poem and clues very closely. They are the road map and directions to get to the TC location. Solving the poem and clues is the challenge. The fact that he walked twice to the location in an afternoon is a very, very important fact (surprised he gave that information out)
    JDA…. you are on the right track… How many solves have we read where the exuberant searcher is way off in Tim-Buck-To, not considering the most important clues given directly by f. As I have said previously on the Blog, (long ago) the TC is closer than we think. Good luck to you!
    (just the rantings and opinions of a very retired senior)

    • Hehe…not sure if this has anything to do with me, but I am pretty far out there, huh?

      *hands you a flower*

      Peace and love!
      LOL

  56. I remember F saying he made sure the clues followed his route as he was creating the poem. I have it in my notes, but never write the location where those notes can be found. Never saw the need to prove what I wrote down as F said it! (Sorry)…I’m sure Seeker will post the quote!
    I’m on the NFBTFTW=10 miles or so team. Some say “242walk” is the correct solve distance (in mles) from start to finish. But, i m sticking with his comment from the TFTW interview about the “ten mile” fishing trip being TFTW for him, and it relates.
    So, WWWH is a BIG place that will get you on your way to CD and HOB.
    I watched the Disney verson of “Alice in Wonderland” again. I love the flowers telling Alice that she was a “weed”, then the spelling caterpillar playing with his words/letters with his smoke rings. They matched F’s SB and some parts in TTOTC. Try watching it, be a child for 95 minutes…but have a pen/paper to write down your discoveries!
    It’s a puzzle, but a fun puzzle!
    Be safe
    ¥Peace ¥
    (All I.M.O.)

  57. I believe searchers are making their own rules when it comes to deciphering the clues in the poem. I believe searchers must surrender to the poem unconditionally and follow what it is conveying to us in order to understand it. If the deciphering methodology were open to general opinion nobody could solve the poem for it would make it impossible to solve.; therefore, the poem is only solvable by the person(s) who give(s) more credit to it rather than themselves, or anybody else for that matter. Opinions do not count when deciphering the clues in the poem only in the blog. I write this not belittle anybody , or their thinking process but I do believe what I write wholeheartedly and I am conveying something that many may not understand not because they can’t but they just don’t want to.

    The clues in the poem are meaningless by themselves, and cannot stand on their own so if the searcher tries to decipher one clue by itself the searcher will certainly fail. The dependence between clues is umbilically;one clue cannot exist without the other, and that’s the reason why searchers keep passing physically by all the other clues. I am not just throwing, what may seem or not, random logical ideas out here. This is following the poem exactly to its core and nothing else. Like I said there is no place for personal interpretation of the clues and if you have a “personal interpretation ” of the clues you are following yourself. This is my opinion of course.RC

    • Agreed. I like the use of “umbilical.” IMO, solving one or two clues independently will do the searcher no good – even if that’s possible. The whole poem (and therefore the solution) is an interdependent “matrix.”

      • @Voxpops Trying to solve the clues independently is futile and not deciphering them for if you have solve them already what else matters? The searcher cannot solve the clues independently from each other but he or she can certainly try but will not prevail. This is my opinion.RC

  58. JCM:

    BigSkip here…Back on 7/17 (5:49 PM) you mentioned two (2) comments that f had made contrary to my descriptions and/or opinions about his two trips in one afternoon to the treasure site. I’m a little late in asking, but could you remind me what he said or implied? It would be appreciated.
    Thanks

  59. With respect to the discussion of whether or not NFBTFTW is a distance, consider this possibility:
    IMO, each of the 9 clues has a dual meaning, and IMO, one meaning of NFBTFTW is a distance, and one meaning is something else.
    Safe searching, everyone!
    Geoff
    “Have flashlight, will travel”

    • Nice catch Geoff. I believe you could be right. I think I have figured out most of the double meanings in this poem but not all.

  60. Start at the beginning. The beginning of the poem is not where you see the word “beginning”. It’s not the second stanza. It’s not even the first stanza. Poems begin with their title! This mistake is the perfect example of why group-think won’t find the treasure. In fact, group-think won’t even get you out of the starting gate. My opinion.

      • Start either at the title OR where the poem tells you to start – it makes no difference. Both will lead you to the same place. One reinforces the other.

          • Iceman, if I remember correctly, Mr. Fenn has stated he did not give the poem a title.

          • Before 2013 that was a true statement. As of 2013 the poem has a title. The title is on the map. What map are you using? You can get the combined map and poem online. Just Google it. You can’t find the treasure without the map. My opinion.

          • Iceman – I think that you are mistaken. Here on Dal’s site – Forrest Gets Mail From a Middle School – Forrest was asked, and answered the following:
            “Did you name the poem The Thrill of the Chase?
            No. I forgot to name it.

            This seems pretty clear to me.

            Where in TFTW do you think that Forrest said that he named the poem?

            Please give page # so I too can read it. JDA

          • Iceman, I would stay within the poem if you wish to find the correct starting point.

          • Wrong. You need the poem and the map. Together they have a title. You need it all. My opinion.

          • That’s a good question, JDA. Didn’t FF say words to the effect that if you don’t know where to begin, all roads lead there? Think about it.

          • Vox
            The actual quote is, ““If you don’t know where it is, go back to the first clue.” f

            With new info, I guess that this quote could be changed to read,”If you don’t know where it is, go back to ‘Begin it where warm waters halt and take it in the canyon down, Not far, but too far to walk.” JDA

          • JDA, thanks for that, but it’s actually a different (and possibly earlier) quote that I’m thinking of. Seeker will probably know.

          • JDA, here it is:
            “If you don’t know where to search, any trail will take you there.”

          • * * * * Voxpops wrote – “Didn’t FF say words to the effect that if you don’t know where to begin, all roads lead there?” * * * *

            You may be thinking of the quote often misattributed to Lewis Carroll? –

            “If you don’t know where you’re going, any road will take you there.”

            JAKe

          • Very similar to this from FF:
            have made some rules for myself as a result of doing some pretty stupid things. Number 26 was, “If you don’t know where to search, any trail will take you there.” By nature, I am not the type who wears a belt and suspenders both. Hope that answers your question.f

          • Vox,
            Q~You have told people to stay at home unless they have solved the first clue.
            A~If you don’t know where you are going any trail will take you there.

          • That’s not much of an answer iceman – Where do you think that you should start? JDA

      • You guys must be so lost. Sheesh. The poem has a title. You need the map and poem in the back of the book “too far to walk”. Why would you embark on a treasure hunt and spend thousands of dollars without buying the book with the map? The title of the poem is … you could have guessed … “The Thrill of the Chase”.

          • Technically he didn’t name the poem. He named the combination of poem and map. He’s tricky like that. Isn’t that what you expect from ff by now. It should be. I said it once and I’ll say it again, ff is a wiley coyote. I think I spelled that right.

          • I don’t think so. It’s spelled: “Wiley E. Coyote…Super Genius.” 🙂

            What is the name of the combination of poem and map you see?

          • The searcher who is inflexible in their way of thinking has little chance of finding the treasure, much less retrieving it. It’s the retrieval that requires significant logistical planning and imagination. My opinion.

          • Iceman, would it not be the understanding of the poem to be most challenging rather than the retrieval?

          • You would not expect retrieval to be more difficult than finding it in the poem. But it is. My opinion.

          • PD,

            LOL, Some folks suffer from insanity… others enjoy every minute of it.

            But, If we’re playing with titles that fenn ‘forgot’ to do… I would put my money on “to the gold”

            At least that’s the name of the book I’m writing, telling all how I solved the poem, before I retrieve the chest. Because I knew I was within 3′ in the last search. Or was it 12′?
            Well, It doesn’t matter… Jeepers told me in a dream i have to walk on Waters Halt to get under the water to gain access to a hidden chamber, … IN the water, guarded by a serpent.
            Key word here is; Doink the clown~ the Great great great great grandson of Russel Osborne.

            Wow!.. I did enjoy every minute of that!!
            YiiiiPeee! I’m in the 7% club.

        • Iceman;

          On the map in TFTW “The Thrill of the Chase”
          is in the upper right hand corner – followed by the words, “Forrest Fenn’s hidden treasure is somewhere to be found within the highlighted region of the Rocky Mountains on this map.”

          Followed by,” degrees show the declination of magnetic/compass north from true/map north.”

          And then, the poem on the left side of the map WITH NO TITLE!!!

          IF – The Thrill of the Chase IS the title, wouldn’t it be directly above the poem, and have NO words separating the title and the poem? Just logical Iceman – Please give it some consideration. Forrest says he didn’t name it – why do you insist that he did? – NOT LOGICAL!!! JDA

        • He never titled the poem for a reason.
          If you are brave and in the wood he will then give you title to the gold. GLHH.

        • I have both books. In 2011 “Thrill of the Chase” book there is no title I can find for the poem itself. “To Far To Walk” (2013), does contain a title but, by then the search was well underway. Don’t see how its title has anything to do with the search because it was not out before he hid the treasure.

      • There waa a title floating around for a while,
        Where the treasure lies.
        But it was never ‘proven, in fact, Forrest did say he didn’t title it. But the funny thing is, I have a method of working the poem for numbers sometimes, lol, and I used it for that tiltle about three years ago. I just looked over those notes and that yield ‘value’ matches the ‘value’ of wwwh. 🙂

  61. The poem has no title. I’ve read both books more times than I care to admit. If the poem has a title, why did ff say in his “response” to the middle school kids that he forgot to name the poem?

  62. Hi Everybody,

    I’m on the road in northern New Mexico. I checked out my secret place yesterday… No pay Dirt! But I had a great time searching! I hiked up a beautiful little creek with towering red cliffs all around. The creek bed was a bit more challenging than Google Earth suggested. The Jemez mountains are filled with natural wonders and I can’t wait to get back there another time. I may even reveal my clues once I get back home from vacation.

    • I will reveal that my WWWH is the Jemez River and the canyon down is the Canyon De San Diego. I’m not ready to reveal my HOB.

      • Mick, how does the Jemez River qualify as a place
        where warm waters halt? I don’t know of any river
        whose water halts, unless its frozen.

        All my opinion, don’cha know.

        • Hey Focus,

          In my opinion, once the warm waters from hot springs (San Antonio, Spence, McCauley, Soda Dam) flow into colder waters (Jemez River) those waters stop (halt) being warm.

    • Good luck Mick! I was down there a couple weeks ago and heading back next weekend. My solve is a bit further north than yours. Luckily I live close enough to go more often than most.

        • Haha! Hold that solve close! I know it’s hard to wait for your next hunt, but the cash value of the gold is only part of the treasure. You could find the chest and blow through the money in a year, but the moment the finder sees Indulgence and opens it up will be priceless!

          • Indulgence? Funny thing we can classifiy under indulgence and that is life? Curious if you can say indulgence in life is the same as The Thrill of the Chase?

  63. Just for kicks,
    Here’s my nine clues if I had to pick em…

    Begin it where wwwh
    And take it in the canyon down
    Put in below the hob
    From there its no place for the meek
    The end is ever drawing nigh
    Therell be no paddle up your creek
    Look quick, tarry scant
    Just take the chest and go in peace
    So why is it that I must go, and leave my trove for all to seek?

    Notice toe action?
    Begin and put from the there look just so
    🙂

    • Thanks for posting that. I’m curious as to what you’re using the rest of the poem for.

      • You know, “toe” action almost works! 🙂

        From my point of view, I think you’re very close, but I’d be inclined to tweak the “action” into something not a million miles distant.

  64. Regarding Iceman’s comments about the title, I was curious as to whether he’d latched onto something important. In fact, I think he has, but for the wrong reason – and therefore with an incorrect outcome, IMO. But I do think he’s hit on something worth pondering.

    • Thanks SL. The only treasure that was found was a fossil (my 10 year old found it). Your link talked about rock layers with fossils.

    • BTW SL,

      The geology in that area (from HWY 550 along HWY 4) all the way to White Rock is astonishing! Anyone interested in geology or ancestral history (like FF) will be in heaven (pun intended). Got to soak in some hot springs and visit Indian ruins as well. The red rock formations around Guadalupe Box made my eyes pop.

  65. JDA:

    BigSkip here…. I like your logical thinking and especially your courtesy to all.
    Maybe you can help. On 7/17 (4:18PM) I made a comment about F using a short cut hike to the TC place. JCM at 5:49 responded saying F had two opposing thoughts or comments about what I had suggested. I subsequently asked JCM to explain, but haven’t heard from them. Based on your knowledge of what F has said, any idea what F may have suggested about his afternoon hike not being a short cut or something like that?
    Thanks for your help

    • Hi Big Skip –

      I haven’t been on the blog for a few days and didn’t see you previous comment asking the follow up of those comments…

      Here they are.

      Q. When you hid your treasures, did you take the same path that is described in the poem, or were you able to skip some of the steps because of your familiarity with the area?
      Thank you Curtis
      A. The clues should be followed in order Curtis. There is no other way to my knowlege.f
      http://mysterious writings.com/questions-with-forrest/questions-with-fenn-archive-1/

      To answer some questions and save others from being asked, I did follow the clues in the poem when I hid the treasure chest, although I hid it before the poem was complete.
      (Completed?) f
      http://mysteriouswritings.com/periodic-words-from-forrest-fenn-on-the-thrill-of-the-chase-
      treasure-hunt/

  66. BigSkip here….
    JCM:
    Thank you and I appreciate your reply to my original questions, especially the quotations you provided. But in the first response you provided from F, he really didn’t answer the question about a “short cut”. He answered, in my opinion, with the same standard instructions to all searchers, “follow the clues, in sequential order, it’s the only way, don’t mess with the poem” etc. etc. I would have been influenced if he had said flatly, “there is no short-cut”. Would he really want to admit to a one-mile short cut? But maybe he has. Does he suggest in the second response that the clues are in close proximity to each other? Those specific clue locations could be miles apart or relatively close together. If far apart, that would have taken much more time. That’s the challenge. If close together, then yes, F could have seen and followed them to the site. But if they are a distance from each other, then I am sure the afternoon hike is a short cut. Just my very senior opinion.
    Thanks again.

    • BigSkip;

      If one is able to drive from wwwh – canyon down – hoB – Meek place – End Place – Parking spot, and only have to walk or hike the remaining clues, to make two trips in one afternoon seems plausible to me – as long as the walk or hike is “less than a few miles”. – Make sense? If you can drive several of the clues, no need for a short cut, leaving the remaining clues as a relatively short hike…Make sense? Does to me. JDA

      • Two trips in one afternoon at least eludes to the thought of a fair amount of distance involved. How much distance is a key question. What type of terrain would require this be done in two trips?

        • FF was hiking at fairly high altitude with a 22 lb pack on his back. I’m guessing he was traveling up a creek @ 1.5-2 mph on a moderately difficult trail/creekbed.

  67. JDA…
    Thanks for the reply. It’s logical and I agree with you. I do believe that there may be a fair amount of “driving” from WWWH and the canyon, To Far To Walk and to where ever hoB is. But I think most believe at some point BOTG is required to seek and identify the remaining clues. I’m probably having a difficult time believing the remaining clues are going to be seen, identified and appreciated on a short, afternoon walk from a road parking area. Sounds too easy. All my distorted opinion.
    Thanks again

    • BigSkip;

      I agree, BotG are necessary, but not until you reach the line, “There’ll be no paddle up your creek, Just heavy loads and water high.” and the last stanza. So how many clues or objects or “things” are to be found in the last 1 and 1/2 or two stanzas?

      I count at least five, Two complete sentences, but five or more things to be identified… or “found” – including possibly three references to Indulgence. Quite a shopping list for a jaunt in the woods of less than several (or a few) miles don’t you think? JDA

      • JDA…
        Exactly….glad we see the challenge alike….at some point, as you point out, BOTG are needed to seek out the mysterious and unknown remaining clues. How many did F go by when he took his afternoon walk? I’m not sure how many could actually been seen via maps or Goggle E. Hope we meet on the trail for that search.

        • Big Skip/JDA,

          When I went looking a couple of days ago, I was able to locate my HOB and “creek” using Google Earth. I also saw some things (via GE) that I believed to be “blazes”. I never made it all the way to those “blazes” (no place for an 80 year old). But I did encounter other “blazes” along my route… Just not the right ones (dang it). IMO, the blaze will most likely be seen only with BOTG… and even then, you’ll have to be wise. Wiser than me anyways! LOL! Good luck guys!

          Mick

          • JDA,

            Had a great time! Got back to some favorite places I hadn’t been to in a long time (Jemez Mountains, Santa Fe, Toas, Rio Grande Gorge Bridge, Eagle Nest, and Red River).

  68. drawing nigh… if drawing is bringing back the strings to a bow to load your arrow would you perhaps have to backtrack to the left?

    • The backtrack or switchback thought was addressed by FF in the bookstore interview. He said it is not part of the solve. Some of those who keep track of exact quotes can provide the exact detail.

      Drawing nigh appears to be drawing left. Several searchers have said this drawing left matches their solve (either flowing water that draws left or a canyon that continues to draw left).

      It’s still not a definite interpretation of that term until the TC is found. IMO

          • Is this creek “In the canyon down?” If not, you may have things turned around a bit – JDA

          • JDA,

            No. I take the canyon down to my HOB. There, I find my creek. From the creek, I work my way up a different canyon.

            WWWH => River => Down a canyon => HOB => Creek => Up a different canyon => Canyon splits in 2 => Take canyon/creek to the left…

      • In one of my solves, the creek I take up a canyon splits into two separate canyons/creeks. In that case, I continue up the canyon/creek to the left.

  69. PDA….

    Quick question…are you the searcher who gave their email out which included the word “sculptor”? Or was that someone else?
    Thanks

  70. I find that in my salve – starting with hob – all the clues are straight in line with each other all going north — hob
    wwwh
    waters high
    blaze
    in the wood
    treasure chest
    also I find that the poem was made from a computer map- I use google map and you will find the clues in line with the poem – and its my opinion that you will not find the chest with out the map- the map is the poem imo

    • I generally agree that the poem operates as a map. However, if I read you correctly, I don’t believe all of the clues are in a line Northward bound. It seems that creek would come into the canyon at an angle… and that our journey takes an abrupt turn around the HOB.

  71. As I try to envision the line, “Just heavy loads and water high,” I begin to imagine a geyser going off. I’m not sure if this is the correct interpretation for this particular line in the poem, but it is offered as a thought.

  72. If anybody pays more attention to the physical aspect of the chase than the mental aspect of it they will surely fail at starting in the right place. The person who will find the chest only needs a hard caramel candy to get there ,and no more calories, but when they get there that’s when they will need a big sandwich,and a big beverage to quench their thirst for the hard work will be about to begin.This is my opinion.RC

  73. This written work which we call poem is the directions to the treasure chest and if it is followed with accuracy will lead the searcher to a chest full of riches. Now, the way the poem was written is extraordinary for if it weren’t anybody would have found the treasure by now. Patience is a virtue that not everyone has when it comes to deciphering what the poem says. Guessing what the clues are seems to be the easy way even though it makes it harder to find out what the clues mean. Ladies and gentlemen the poem was meant to be solved and it was meant to be solved anywhere in the world by anyone who takes their time in solving the great mystery. Illogical thinking and even educated guessing is not part of the winning equation,and even a hunch can only get you so far because the person would only have that gut feeling as opposed to hard, physical evidence that would prove her or him right. This is my opinion.RC.

    • Yes but Forrest said a little girl in India couldn’t get any closer than the first two clues..so that means some of it cannot be properly interpreted without being on location.

      • @Questgeek You have to be very, very careful how you interpret what Forrest says or he will have you running in circles. It is true that one could interpret that the Indian girl could not get any closer because there would be clues still missing, still not deciphered while on site which is how most interpret it, if not all, but can one also interpret the Indian could not get any closer because she was already there? Think about that. RC.

        • That is an interesting thing to think about but he also said that the question makes heim wishes he had another chest to hide in the Alps.

        • ******** Ruben wrote – “can one also interpret the Indian could not get any closer because she was already there?” ********

          Exactly, Ruben. It’s what I’ve been thinking since re-adjusting the scale of my map last winter. Same line of thinking goes for those searchers who got the first two clues then walked off past the chest. Maybe they were already there.

          JAKe

          • @ J A Kraven The searchers who got the first two clues right were already there, maybe not physically but mentally. This is my opinion.RC.

      • Based on that statement it does seem more likely that you cannot get through most of the clues at home. Decipher and understand the poem maybe but wouldn’t finding clues at home be directly contradictory to f’s statement? If not then how so?

        • Aaron;

          Let’s say I am addicted to my armchair…and TV.
          I seldom get off of my butt.

          I discover the poem and the chase.

          I figure out a solve from my armchair.

          Hark! I get off of my butt, drive 500 miles (or what-ever distance) – get out into the woods, and try to locate my “special” points I have found on Google Earth. I drive another t0 – 20 miles, park and climb a mountain for another 1 – 5 miles – – – – Forrest has WON!!! He got me off of my butt, and out into the wonders of nature. JDA

          P.S. Above is a true story – I have now made 14 trips into the “Wilds of Wyoming” that I would have never made, had it not been for the chase. I have had “More Family Fun” than I would have otherwise had, were it not for the chase. Y E A Forrest!!!

          • My family and I had a blast searching in the outdoors too. The 12 year old wasn’t too happy with the off trail searches but enjoyed other parts of our trip. Getting them away from video games and into nature for a few days was a great thing indeed.

        • Hi Aaron,

          I believe you may have taken Forrest’s answer out of context to the question asked; “Can a little girl in India, who speaks good English, but only has your POEM and MAP of the US Rocky Mountains, work out where the treasure is? And would she be confident as she solves each clue, or only confident when she has solved them all?”

          But us armchair guys and gals also have TTOTC, access to some real good maps, and his ATF comments to assist us as the question excluded those resources.

          So absolutely the little girl in India will be at a serious disadvantage and I have to take f at his word that she can’t get past the first 2 clues.

          Pinatubocharlie

      • How much progress can be made by someone just thinking and searching the Internet from home? (Anot–her way of saying this: How many clues can only be decoded in situ?) 
        FF: All of them, in theory, but not likely in practice. A searcher must go to the site to find the treasure.
        ——————————————————————–

        Can a little girl in India, who speaks good English, but only has your poem and map of the US Rocky Mountains, work out where the treasure is? And would she be confident as she solves each clue, or only confident when she has solved them all?
        FF …The little girl in India cannot get closer than the first two clues. There are many disabled people who are deeply into maps and geography, and they are having a lot of fun.
        ——————————————————————-

        “I warned that the path would not be direct for those who had no certainty of the location beforehand, but sure for the one who did.” f

        ——————————————————————–

        “What surprises me a little is that nobody to my uncertain knowledge has analyzed one important possibility related to the winning solve. ff”

    • Without visiting the site, you will be at a huge disadvantage to others that have. It’s not an armchair puzzle. It requires knowledge that can only be acquired on site. That’s the nature of the chase. My opinion.

      • @Iceman When you say ” It’s not an armchair puzzle” do you have hard evidence that it is not? Is this information that you have gathered from the poem or this blog, or from Youtube, or any of Forrest’s books?
        The poem is a 100% armchair puzzle that’s why it can be deciphered, in theory, before you go to the place to retrieve it. The reason it is called a theoretical solve is because the searcher will not be sure he, or she has the solution to the poem until she, or he has the treasure on their hands but they would still have to have some degree of certainty their theory would bring. Guessing will not get the job done even though guessing gets searchers seeking in places they would never go to, so they get a new experience but not the gold. See,in my opinion, the gold will not be retrieved by someone who is in love with the adventure of looking for gold but the one who retrieves it will be someone who pays more attention to the poem rather than to his, or her own thoughts as our thinking pattern can be our enemy if we do not keep it in check. The gold will be there for years and no one will find it by accident and it was never intended for someone to find it without deciphering the poem, so no amount of driving, hiking, backpacking, walking, swimming, or even guessing will get anybody closer to the chest but it will be from the comfort of one’s home that the poem will be solved, in theory, but still in its entirety. This is my opinion. RC.

        • Good point RC. It is important that we are able to change our way of thinking to fit the clues in the poem rather than change clues to fit our way of thinking.

          I am curious to see however, how much of the poem is armchair and how much requires being on site. Nobody knows for sure until the TC is found. Going for a search gave me a little more perspective on how much can be different than you have studied once you are actually there. For instance I thought I was in a great location and had the first clues solved but the terrain was such that I could barely get through much less someone almost twice my age. Another spot that I thought was off trail turned out to be a popular fishing area after I got there. I suppose the treasure could have still been near but I decided to spend my time elsewhere since it may be easy to stumble upon there.

          • @ Aaron The place where the poem leads us is not in the wild, and no rough terrain is to be traveled. I do not think the poem should be dissected so we can come up with clues but rather we should be focused on what it is telling us and we should listen attentively with no predisposition of our part in any way, shape or form. It is this my recipe for success and I do not think there is another way of solving the poem for the poem has the answers in itself and is waiting for someone to agree with it. Is someone listening out there? Do you see in the poem what I see, and not what I, or you want to see? My experiences in life and my own opinions about what the clues are or are not do not matter to me for if i listen to myself i will fail every single time. The deciphering of the poem is not the problem, the problem consists in the searcher not wanting to evolve their thinking patterns and so they come up with the same information over,and over again. This is my opinion.RC.

        • RC;

          I have been critical of your posts in the past. This was a well thought-out, well phrased post.

          It was logical, it makes sense, and you left your ego at home. YEA for you on this one – Just some musings of an old man- JDA

          • @ JDA There is a valid reason why I write the way I do and not until the treasure is found will my posts make sense to most if not all searchers. RC.

          • Agree, JDA!

            I’ve been recently thinking both sides of this argument may be correct–that FF’s comment about how the one who finds the chest will walk with confidence right to it makes me think, yeah, you can get a pretty good idea of where it is from home, but will need to “adjust” when BOTG to actually find it.

    • Ruben, guessing is an important part of solving the poem.
      It’s been said that until one finds the TC, one never can know whether one has a correct solve. This applies to each and every clue’s solution as well.

      Here’s the method I use(d):
      I GUESS at a solution for what I GUESS is the first clue.
      If I think my GUESS could be correct, then I GUESS at a solution for what I GUESS is the second clue. I continue
      in this manner until I think I have correct solutions for all
      the clues. If it all makes sense, with little or no doubt in my mind, then I am satisfied enough to make a BOTG search trip.

      At any time during solving that a GUESS doesn’t “pan out”, then I make a change, and take a different GUESS to replace the one that wasn’t satisfactory to me at the time.

      So far, I don’t know of any other way to correctly solve the poem. I have seen lots of apparent “teasers” from FF that support my solve.

      Good luck to you in your solving and searching.

      The above is my opinion. Yours may differ.

      • So the gist of what you are saying is that you guess a lot. Put that in your pipe and smoke it. But I can also see where your method might work–I’ll give it a try. ✨

  74. IMHO:
    I believe you have to take the nine lines and subtract from the 24 lines.
    Thus you have 15 lines.
    If you take what Fenn says he did (13) and take the nine he says you need to find the treasure: It reads very distinctly..
    There are two lines at the end that set the method to find the treasure.
    Here me all and listen good if someone is whispering.
    Cotton woods and Aspen Trees are “Whispering pines”
    If you are brave and in the wood…American Indians leaving trail signs.
    You have to find where to start looking. So;
    “And take it in the canyon down” IMHO a double clue.
    Where the area is and the direction to take once you have “Put In”
    Look up the definition of a canyon: look up the example in Spanish and you find the location.
    “Put in below the home of Brown” IMHO is a double clue.
    “Put in” tells you to start here. And the home of Brown is a cattle ranch.
    “There’ll be no paddle up your creek” Again a double clue. Means you are looking for a stream of water as describes in the canyon clue. However it is not a stream to place a canoe. So it is not wide nor deep. But it also tells you to go upstream. Yet you are going down a trail but you must follow the water “Up stream”
    Water High is probably a waterfall.
    BTW “Begin it where warm waters halt” Warm is above 32 degrees and below 212 degrees.
    A resort for Summer activities and for Winter sports.
    It is not a dam, not a pool, not a pond not a lake but could be a basin or an area with Basin in its’ name. Ergo: Aspen Basin.
    Does this make sense to anyone?

    • John,

      Though cottonwood and aspen trees might be whispering, they “speak” poplar, not pine.

      Pinatubocharlie

  75. BTW: I take :Not far but too far to walk.
    The chest is hidden not far from Fenn’s home but too far to walk.
    His home to the Aspen Basin is about 16 miles.
    Why would he hide it any further. He is; I’m sure familiar with that area and the clues in my opinion point there.

    • MW question:
      …I was wondering if you would be so bold as to give an estimate of how far you walked to hide the treasure after
      leaving your car: was it >10 miles, between 5 and 10 miles, between 1 and 5 miles, or less than 1 mile? ~Thanks, Ron

      Ron, your question sounds like a travelogue, but I’ll answer it. No, I don’t want to be that bold. But I will say that I walked less than a few miles if that will help. I just looked “few” up and one definition is “scant.” Why do I sound like I’m talking in circles? f

  76. Good evening all… Has Mr. Fenn retracted the clue that pinion trees are near the trove? This was an very important clue to my theory.

    • “I just watched that New Mexico Tourism video again and must say that I didn’t say what I was thinking. You cannot smell a pinon nut, but those who pick them know that in doing so you get pine pitch all over your hands, and pine pitch smells about the same no matter what kind of pine tree you are talking about. Looking back I think I wanted to say I could smell pine needles, not pinon nuts. Sorry I kicked a hornet’s nest with that comment. There is no clue there. Incidentally, when I get pine pitch on my hands I rub butter on the spots and that solves the problem. Of course then I have trouble getting the butter off.”

      • Thanks for the response…….. I use peanutbutter and have two two pups that clean it right off me. LOL

  77. I have a question… I keep seeing things that reference a rainbow. Did Forrest say something in regards to rainbows or is this something that people put together themselves? I searched on the Tarry Scant website and the only reference seems to be either trout or colors of paintings. I can’t find where Forrest mentioned rainbows. I’m hoping someone can help me out
    TimM

    • TimM, the last sentence on page 151 – “So I wrote a poem containing nine clues that if followed precisely, will lead to the end of my rainbow and the treasure: As I have gone alone in there…”

      My solution is based on the 9 clues are places that symbolically are dear to Mr. Fenn. So, you did place your question in the right place, based on my answer. 🙂

  78. the twist and turns from the beginning to the end. im still not sure how one should go about finding the start of this but be rest assured im trying to think about this fact first. might be above me some how. but thats ok i think it was ment to be that way. it helps me live from day to day thats a good thing ty MR Fenn its harder to think these days but i work at it just the same good day all.

    • YEA for ypu Jeff. There are many who have not had a stroke, and have difficulty thinking at times – I am one. JDA

  79. This is my first post but I’ve been studying and contemplating the poem for a few months. My approach has been to simplify the problem to be solved as much as possible. Thie following is my assessment and is not stated as fact: there are 3 locations and 2 connecting legs to find. Fenn has stated that there are 9 clues in the poem. The locations are: warm water halts, home of Brown, and the blaze/treasure. I consider the blaze and treasure to be one location because of their close proximity. I believe the 9 clues are:
    1. Begin where warm water halts
    2. Take the canyon down, not far but too far to walk.
    3. Put in below the home of Brown
    4. From there it’s no place for the meek and the end is drawing nigh
    5. Up your creek, heavy loads and water high
    6. Find blaze and look down
    7. Tarry scant, marvel gaze, go in peace
    8. Worth the cold
    9. Brace and in the wood

    And, I think the first stanza of the poem gives a hint that may help to locate the general search area: riches new and old. The leg between warm waters and home of Brown I am estimating as 5 to 12 miles. The leg between home of Brown and the blaze/treasure I am assuming is shorter since no statement about being too far to walk, so I am estimating 1 to 4 miles.

    • You seem to off to a good start. Good reasoning that the leg between HOB and the blaze is shorter. What made you estimate 5 – 12 miles between WWWH and HOB? Just curious.

      Looking forward to more of your posts.

      • I have read that Fenn stated in the preface to his book “Too Far to Walk” when describing a certain hike, stated that the 10 miles was too far to walk. And recently, Toby Younis on his weekly vlog calculated the actual distance of the hike Fenn was relating as being around 6 miles. Adding a little wiggle room on each end leads me to estimate the canyon down leg at 5 to 12 miles.

        • I watched a few of Toby’s videos before I
          decided that they aren’t helpful. I wouldn’t take them too seriously as being useful in helping to solve the poem.

          Do you think that FF, in encouraging families (with young children) to search, wants a kid,
          3 or 4 years old, to be hiking about 6 miles (one-way)?? I don’t think so.

          All of the above is my opinion.

          • I think the canyon down leg is meant to be driven. There is no reference to water, so it may be a dry canyon. And even if he is describing a float trip, I don’t think it’s necessary to actually take the float trip. The creek leg between home of Brown and the treasure/blaze is, I believe, within walking distance.

          • Tom B

            I have to disagree. there is no comma between “Begin it where warm waters halt (no comma) and take it in the canyon down…” IF there were a comma, you COULD be correct. Without a comma, to me this implies that there is water in the canyon.

            I agree, even if there is water in the canyon, you can probably follow a road that parallels the water in the canyon.

            I disagree that between hoB and the treasure/blaze that it is within walking distance. If between wwwh and hoB is “Too far to walk” – for me (and my solve) from hoB to place Forrest parked car = about the same distance – “too far to walk”. From parking place to blaze/treasure = “less than a few miles”. (Less than 5) – Just MO JDA

          • Correction: The “6 miles” referenced above is the distance we measured on the Madison River from the point at which Fenn put in to where he exited at Baker’s Hole. We do not imply or believe that the “too far to walk” distance in the poem is meant to be walked by searchers. We believe it is a one way trip down the canyon by motorized vehicle.

            tyounis

          • Toby;

            How is it that you were able to figure out the exact spot that Forrest entered the Madison. To quote from the preface of TFTW, “I put a small rubber dinghy in the Madison River a few miles from West Yellowstone. Montana, and fished downstream to Baker’s Hole. That part of the river was in the quietly forgotten western edge of Yellowstone Park. There were no roads, no trails, and no rangers to remind me that I wasn’t supposed to do that.”
            “A few miles from West Yellowstone” seems pretty vague to me.

            Just askin – JDA

    • Clues 4 and 5 above refer to the creek that is to be followed from the home of Brown. Clues 6 through 9 refer specifically to the blaze/treasure site located along the creek, in my opinion.

    • I guess its good reasoning 5 to 12 miles, suppose to start be 800 feet, flame 1 miles to 1500, hob 2 miles, 1 mile walk to brook and brown, fire and canyon and treasure 5 miles

    • “I think the canyon down leg is meant to be driven”.
      —————————————————————–
      Tom B … Although I disagree with you on your 9 specific clues, at least you have decided that the canyon part needs to be driven, not walked, which I agree with..

      Despite the poem’s words “too far to walk”, you’d be surprised how people rationalize their bizarre conclusion that the entire set of clues after WWWH are to be walked, in some tiny area.

      One of the elements of the puzzle that can give “confidence” to searchers who have to travel long distances to the Rocky Mountains and therefore spend a lot of money and time in transit, is their ability to solve at least most of the clues from their home using a map.

      All of which implies that the poem’s clues are spread out over a fairly large area, large enough that searchers can correctly solve one or a few of the early clues but not find the chest, owing to their mistaken interpretation of clues later in the poem.

      Ken (in Texas)

  80. I have waffled on the clues. I used to be firmly in the camp of 9 sentences = 9 clues. Keep it simple.

    In my latest interpretation, the clues are concentrated in stanzas 2, 3, &4:

    The first 4 lines are “introductory” or “setting the stage” with hints.
    1) BIWWH ATIITCD NFBTFTW
    2-9) are the next individual lines of the poem
    From JTTCAGIP on, there are hints, but not clues.

    Then again, I still don’t have a treasure chest in my possession.

    • Cris;

      I totally agree. Only difference is that I move all of stanza’s 5 and 5 to above stanza #1. – This puts all of the “Hints” or
      “Introductory” Clues at the top, and the “Directional Clues after that. JDA

      • JDA. You could certainly be right about the distance of the creek leg, but my thinking is that he likely parked at, or near, the home of Brown and walked to the blaze from that point. He says to “put in” below the home of Brown,which to me, implies a change in transportation. And, since there is no mention of it being far from home of Brown to the blaze, I am going with a shorter distance than the canyon down. It’s certainly possible that he drove part of the creek leg, but I think it could be walked, and probably must’ve walked in order to find the blaze.

        • Good thinking Tom, and you may be correct.

          My thinking regarding “Put In” is you are following a body of water “down the canyon” – even though you are not actually “floating the river or big stream” (although you could) – You need to “Get out of that body of water” and go in a different direction. Let’s say you are taking the “Canyon down” (South) – You get out – You now head East or West (Dependent on where your “Meek” place is located. – You drive to, (and past) the meek place – the end is EVER drawing nigh (You may cross more than one boundary) and get to the END place, and park. You hike up a trail that parallels a “No paddle” creek until you get to a place where there are “Heavy Loads” and “Water High” – You then find the blaze, and Indulgence. What you do now is up to you – one trip or two carrying “The box” and/or the treasure down off of the hill or mountain you climbed from where you parked.. JDA

          • JDA. I agree that “no place for the meek” gives you the direction to go from the home of Brown. But I think it is necessary to walk along the creek instead of following a parallel trail. Fenn says that several searchers have passed by the treasure within 200 feet. It seems likely that they were on a trail and therefore missed the blaze.

          • You say, “Fenn says that several searchers have passed by the treasure within 200 feet. It seems likely that they were on a trail and therefore missed the blaze.” I agree, but the walking or hiking, in my opinion, was AFTER you park at the END and are in search of Heavy Loads and Water High – and then the blaze and Indulgence. Just my opinion – You may be right – Time will tell – JDA

          • Covert one;
            The quote you mentioned is,”“If you ain’t the lead dog, the scenery never changes. When I am in the mountains or in the desert, the last place I want to be is on a trail. Ain’t no adventure in that for me. There isn’t a human trail in very close proximaty (sic) to where I hid the treasure”.

            I leave the trail at the very end, and “bushwhack” the last 300 feet or so – I think that I am safe. JDA

  81. As i crossed the stream I could hear the rippling and gurgling around my ankles and the sound of the water as it cascaded over the rocks. By the time I reached the other side my toes and feet were tingling from the coldness of the water . As I stepped out of the water onto the trail I could feel a cool softness in the dirt and as I watched a little puff of dust rolled out from underfoot I knew it was the beginning of a long journey into the mountains that would be my home for the next couple of days. I’d traveled into these mountains some 25 years earlier when I was younger and I knew the area and territory pretty well from memory. The trail I was on would follow the creek for a couple of miles go up a side canyon with about five switch backs and end up in a clearing at the top of the pass where the camp would be for the night.As I started up the trail I could see footprints of deer and elk that had been there earlier and could smell their pungent odor in the air. My mind traveled to the thought of the treasure that Forrest fenn had hidden somewhere in the mountains north of Santa-Fe . A cool breeze was blowing up the canyon and I could smell the sage from somewhere down below . I could smell the moisture in the air from the water and pine needles from the trees . A squirrel chirped from one of the limbs somewhere aloft in the tree and a sense of peace and calmness engulfed me as I turned up the trail.

  82. Concerning whether the poem can be solved, the treasure chest location deduced, without BOTG, the following two Fenn comments onTarryscant.com indicate to me that the 9 clues can indeed be solved from home:

    First. Question posed to Mr Fenn:
    If the poem is a map and will tell us exactly where to go, why couldn’t the little girl from India get past the first two clues? I think it’s because after solving all nine clues from home, the ocean prevents her from journeying to the precise location to retrieve the treasure chest.
    Mr Fenn’s response:
    Thanks for answering it for me.

    Second. I warned that the path would not be direct for those who had no certainty of the location beforehand, but sure for the one who did.

  83. No amount of conjectures,assumptions,speculations,guesses,hunches,hypotheses,inferences,notions,opinions,presumptions, suspicions,suppositions,or theories will help the searcher get any mentally closer to the treasure chest; even though he or she can get as physically close as anyone else. We have been given the body of evidence to solve the mystery yet most everyone refuses to see the facts,proofs,realities,and truths. One has to accept the poem as absolute truth in (physically)finding the treasure. No amount of hints, or clues Forrest can give will help us get closer mentally, or even physically to the chest so the only way to get the treasure chest is to solve the mystery, and go retrieve it. This is my opinion.RC

  84. Did ever someone consider, that
    “Just heavy loads and water high”
    isn´t a clue?

    Heavy loads is the treasure itself. And water high is the bottled water you need.

    I think the last clue is “Your effort will be worth the cold”.

    • There will be no paddle up your creek, “just heavy loads and water high” IMHO it means don’t go in this direction.
      Look back at the previous clue.

  85. In one of my search areas, which have since been discounted by “not in a desert,” I felt the “Just heavy loads and water high” was an arroyo.

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