Home of Brown…Part Four


This page is now closed to new comments. To continue the discussion please go to the latest Home of Brown page.


This is for a discussion about “the home of Brown” in Forrest’s poem.

Got an HOB that didn’t work out…or maybe you need an HOB for a certain area…or perhaps you have an idea that needs some fleshing out..

This is the place to discuss all things HOB…


657 thoughts on “Home of Brown…Part Four

    • Yup, certainly indicative of a proper noun, i.e. a proper (appropriate) name of a specific person, place or thing.

      Common Nouns vs. Proper Nouns
      “Nouns fall into one of two broad categories: common nouns and proper nouns.
      All nouns serve to name a person, place, or thing. Those that identify general people, places, or things are called common nouns—they name that which is common among others. Proper nouns, on the other hand, are used to identify an absolutely unique person, place, or thing. A proper noun names someone or something that is one of a kind, which is signified by the use of a capital letter, no matter where it appears in a sentence.”

      The Farlex Grammar Book © 2016 Farlex International. All rights reserved.

        • I completely agree. There is in only one HOB.

          Where is the ??? I hope someone can does find it.

          I think 2018 is the year!

      • don’t forget…this is a poem…and these rules may or may not be as clear as you want them to be.
        sure…at first reading…or even tenth reading this may be what one thinks…but maybe not.
        That capitalization may just be a literary device…

        • The home of Brown is capitalized because Forrest Fenn sees it as significant. This is my opinion only. Think like Fenn, and forget grammar rules


          • You could be right Franklin. The poem was purposely made difficult. Part of that difficulty could be seeing past grammar and punctuation.

          • Franklin…it should be fairly obvious that HOB IS definitely important/significant. The real question is what exactly HOB is.
            HOB has been discussed at length for several years…brown trout, brown bear, beaver, outhouse, brown valleys, you name it. This is not to mention all of the proper nouns that HOB could mean. Molly Brown, Ranger Brown etc. and that list is fairly long as well. Folks have mentioned a ton of symbolic possibilities over the years. Has the correct idea been mentioned or figured out for sure? No one knows…yet. That is why this gets tossed around so much and folks offer up ideas that may lead to someone having that eureka moment.
            And…I would not be so quick to dismiss grammar, punctuation or anything else for that matter. Don’t believe for a second that Fenn just threw this poem together without all of these things in his mind and knowing all of the possible ways to cover his tracks. Also…there are many that have come and gone that claimed they knew how Fenn thinks…or were right on his heels in that department. Years later…and here we are…still working on the “riddle”, puzzle, poem, map and no one has figured him or his poem out. It’s a long, fun, ride that has chewed up a lot of good minds.
            Good luck and have some fun!

  1. Who is interested in discussing this before Forrests book signing in November? Maybe a small get together the day of the signing? Any ideas, suggestions for a place to meet….

    • Whiskeyes,
      Java Joe’s for a cup of Joe. It is housed in a “Brown” building. It is a ways from Collected Works so maybe/maybe not. Moonshadow had her art displayed there for a month. Please keep me informed of a planned meet up at abqnewkey@hotmail.com
      Please use my e-mail as I haven’t been subscribing very much lately. There are a lot of places around the plaza that would suffice as well.

      • Del Charro is another nice one to whet your whistle at, a little cave of a place that has great burgers and fancy drinks with Curacao on the rocks, also serving “beer.” Del Chase I is near Collected Works and also wears a “brown” coat. 🙂

  2. IMHO, “BROWN” has no relationship to Brown trout. Brown’s are the most wide spread and adaptable of all the freshwater salmonoids or chars. They can tolerate a wider range of temperature and water undissolved and dissolved solids than just about any other trout species I can think of..
    Given their wide range from cold clear lakes /streams to 10,000 ft +,,, down to murky relatively warmer waters at 5,000 ft -,
    with a distribution throughout all of the Rocky Mountain states. I can
    hardly think, (unless it’s a hatchery or special brood lake), that there is a specific HOB.

      • Do brown trout live in most all the lakes of the Rockies? Then any lake can be a HOB.

        If you are at the right WWH place, then drive down the canyon until you see the lake…. thats where you’ll pull over & take out your pole, your at a home of Brown,

        Maybe Brown isn’t reallly specific at all… a clever trick. The joker did say he laughed on his way back to the car.

      • Brown trout MAY be the answer, but how about “HOME” of Brown trout. There must be some special significance to Forrest using this word, and how it would relate to Brown trout.

        Where do Brown trout spawn? Do they spawn in lakes? I don’t think so. I would guess, upstream on sandy or gravelly shoals. Can anyone verify this?.

        I just googled it, and here is the answer: ” Shortening days stimulate development of eggs and activate the instinct to proceed with the spawning just like many other animals. The females proceed to find a suitable spawning ground. Characteristics of such a spot include swift water and loose pebbles or gravel.

        Read more at: http://troutster.com/

        So, where Brown trout spawn could be the “HOME of Brown – Just a thought. JDA

        • I’m behind in this conversation, but to me, the capitalization of “Brown” indicates it is related to a person or persons of some historical significance.

        • BigSkip here:

          JDA… your process description for Brown trout is correct….But might that simply be a seasonal trek from their real “Home”? We humans don’t necessarily refer to where we were born as home. I don’t. I suspect it is more likely where we reside for any length of time. Home vs. birthplace….
          Just a thought.

          • Interesting thought – Take it a step farther – Brown trout are not a native species of fish in the Rockies. They were imported from Europe – So, their real HOME is in Europe…Just something to think about. What was the process by which they were introduced into the waters of the Rockies? Hummm


  3. Is HOB the 3rd clue? Several have solved the first 2 clues and if HOB is the 3rd this is the clue that everyone is walking past. How can a searcher just walk past a clue with being so close? Is it because there imagination is there most important aspect with the HOB and they are not bringing together the resources of imagination and the physical location? Fenn has said if he told you the HOB you would go right to it, is it that pivotal of a clue? I say yes or maybe the true understanding of the HOB helps one to see the big picture that makes the clues easier as you go on.

    Why is it the only word that doesn’t start a line that is capital? Does it also take imagination to solve this question aswell? At some point in the poem it does seem like a literal representation of the poem stops and something else is needed, a resource that we are all born with and something that may be necessary to solve the poem.

    Since HOB is probably a clue it is a geographical location maybe not one on a known map but none the less a singular precise location. Something as common as brown trout, brown bear, or even a beaver is too common to lead one to a precise location.

    • Count said

      “Is HOB the 3rd clue? Several have solved the first 2 clues and if HOB is the 3rd this is the clue that everyone is walking past. How can a searcher just walk past a clue with being so close?”

      Gadz Count…doesn’t “Put in below the home of Brown” tell us that if we miss the “put in” that we miss HOB???

      FF says ‘most’ of the places that the clues refer to were present when he was a kid. Now, since I think that most of these places are geological for various reasons, I’m forced to think at least 5 places are geological (simple math) but that at least 1 place is ‘man made’ (for lack of a better word). Interestingly, if FF did anything at hidey spot besides set TC down, then hidey “place” is surely “man made”.

      In recently closed HOB thread, Charlie raised a good question calling for citation that HOB was a clue. I only recall one such fuzzy ATF that inferred so, but haven’t been able to locate this ATF. I tend to think of HOB as a clue, but in my only solve, my HOB is not really a clue despite a well known geologic feature. My dichotomy is from within the poem where “put in below the home home of Brown” has my “put in” on my solve path, but not my HOB. IOW in my solve, my HOB is a reference for my put in ONLY and not on my actual path. Thus, in my solve, my HOB is really a hint to my put in clue, so kudos Charlie!

      Many here think that HOB, blaze, and hidey spot are in relativity close proximity, and I concur. If so, this begs the question whether HOB is actually what interests FF vs hidey spot. In my solve, his hidey spot is…worthless, it’s all about ‘his’ HOB.

      • Not necessarily they may have been using a brown trout or so other brown they thought was correct that by accident got them there. We were in our place with trout when i stumble onto what we think is the right HOB now.i think u can make error easily

      • Because people have been within 200 feet, that doesn’t mean that they have solved anything. It is entirely possible that these people just randomly started in the right spot. There is no evidence that anyone has correctly “solved” any clues. IMO…

      • Tom B:
        if you look good in this spot that forrest says less than 200 feet, it’s some unusual as a tip, remembering you can go with your your family there, a 3 year old can find the bau or pick it up, yes, no more he had managed to erect it.
        use the family there, keep, magnifying glass

      • Tom B: I think that’s faulty logic on a couple counts. If HoB is neither the 2nd clue nor the 3rd, then at best someone ~may~ have figured out HoB, but Forrest is not sure. And if Forrest isn’t sure, what does that tell you?

        Coming within 200′ of the treasure may not be that difficult subsequent to solving the first two clues, and if that’s true it may be because the paths or places one might go after leaving WWWH are quite limited. Home of Brown could be elusive because searchers are trying to solve it prematurely.

        • Where warm waters halt is the first clue. Please identify two more clues BEFORE home of Brown to support your statement.

          • In my very humble opinion, home of Brown and Brown are 2 separate things for purposes of the solve. I know, im whacko. But that is what I am seeing.


          • Tom B:
            my affirmation
            how a wise man knows when a water is hot or cold
            remember the shower of your forrest
            in the shower has a record of controlling hot water and other cold water, more and in nature as you will know the difference, there are some methods plates or you use your hand in the water or a thermometer
            be wise and think outside the box, wet, humid and povilhar, meet in the verb and synonymous with water
            I think now you know what I’m saying, do not forget to have a cup of coffee at the entrance of the park near the parking lot
            have a good hunting

        • Tom B: sure. #2: take it in the canyon down, and #3: not far, but too far to walk. In my opinion, #2 is a clue because it tells you the direction of travel from WWWH. Since that direction is not the only choice at WWWH, it seems logical to me to count it as a clue. After all, if you don’t go in the correct direction, I don’t see how you have any chance of solving subsequent clues.

          Similarly, how can anyone dismiss NF, BTFTW as a clue? Without solving it you have no idea how far “in the canyon down” you must go. I realize many searchers think there is no way to know what the correct distance is from that line, and that therefore the answer is to just keep going until you find your home of Brown. But I say they’re wrong: those 7 words alone tell you exactly what you need to know. IMO, it is because the searchers who figured out WWWH dismiss that line as a clue that they fail to get any further.

          • Zap;

            I disagree that “And take it in the canyon down is a stand-alone clue. I say this because there is no punctuation after the first line. With no punctuation, lines one and two must be read as one sentence, one complete thought. True, there is important info in line two, but is (to me) to be taken as a whole – “Begin it where warm waters halt and take it in the canyon down.(period – end of thought) Yes, I do think that punctuation is important. Just my way of looking at the poem – JDA

          • And if your both wrong…

            You tell us that we should find “where warm waters halt” before trying to solve any of the other clues. Imagining that we haven’t seen the rest of the poem, and all we have to go on is:
            a. “begin it where warm waters halt” and
            b. “somewhere in the mountains north of Santa Fe”
            Do you think that we can confidently determine the starting place for your treasure trail? ~ Steve
            No, if all you have to go on are those two clues you cannot proceed with confidence. Look at it this way. If you were making a cake and you left out a few ingredients, would you achieve your goal?
            Your question reminds me of another: You leave home and walk a straight line for a mile, turn 90 degrees left and walk a curved line for a mile and shoot a bear. Then you turn 90 degrees left again and walk a straight line back to your home. What color is the bear?f

            What else do we need to figure out where to go that these 200 footers did to make it there, seems like WWWH is not enough, or not enough as the first clue. I have a lot more I want to say but I posted it else where and usually don’t spend much time posting here unless its a new thread…

            Heres a mind bender for everyone here does Preston’s “final clue”=in the mountains north of Santa Fe, NM?

          • I’m with you on this one JD. And, if home of Brown was the 4th clue, that only leaves 5 for the rest of the poem. Doesn’t add up in my view.

          • Count. You said: “Heres a mind bender for everyone here does Preston’s “final clue”=in the mountains north of Santa Fe, NM?”

            Depending on how you interpret it, “in the mountains north of Santa Fe” could be one of the most important clues.

          • The Count: I see nothing in what I posted that is in conflict with anything Forrest has ever said or written, so I’m not sure what point you are trying to make posting the old Q&A between Steve and Forrest.

            “What else do we need to figure out where to go that these 200 footers did to make it there, seems like WWWH is not enough, or not enough as the first clue.”

            Apparently, WWWH is necessary but not sufficient to get a searcher within 200′ of the treasure (whether by design or by accident). I see no conflict. If you go the wrong way from WWWH, you won’t pass within 200′. Even if you go the right way, you might only come within 500′ (after all, many have done so). But it seems that only a subset have come within 200′ — and yet they did so well before Forrest said anything about the possibility that a searcher “might” have solved 4 clues. That tells me you can come within 200′ without figuring out home of Brown, because some people did just that solving no more than 2 clues (and I think only a small minority of searchers believe “home of Brown” is the second clue).

          • Yep Tom B,
            In the mountains north of Santa Fe is a BIG ONE if this book wasn’t written by Fenn but Preston how would we know that? If that was the case, which it could of been, how would we know to look in the Rockies, and not the Appalachians or the Alps? With Fenns resources it could of been hidden anywhere.

            Once this page reaches 100 post I’m done here there becomes too much unorganized mess of post going every which direction. I prefer to keep my thoughts in better order but it doesn’t stop me from lurking here…

          • Zap,
            Sorry doubling up on post here before I move on, I’m just not on the band wagon YET that WWWH is the first clue. It seems to contradict this:

            Someone unfamiliar with your poem receives a message that says “meet me where warm waters halt, somewhere in the mountains north of Santa Fe”. Would they be able to work out where to go? If they can’t, would they need the whole poem, another stanza, or just a line or word to help them on their way? ~Phil Bayman
            There are a few words in the poem that are not useful in finding the treasure Phil, but it is risky to discount any of them. You over simplify the clues. There are many places in the Rocky Mountains where warm waters halt, and nearly all of them are north of Santa Fe. Look at the big picture, there are no short cuts. f

            To anyone there is more than a few words in the first stanza making it helpful to find the chest if so is there or is there not a clue there? Just another contridiction that probably won’t be clear up because it will give away to much. So I still say the first stanza is helpful in finding the chest, maybe next year I’ll think differently it appears I have time. But it appears my time here is coming to an end until next thread…
            Maybe you can find me else where 🙂

          • FF has said the first clue is WWWH. I think there are clues in first and last stanzas that could help, but IMHO, the first “clue” is WWWH.

          • Hi TheCount:

            You wrote: “I’m just not on the band wagon YET that WWWH is the first clue.”

            Then you either haven’t heard the 2013 New Zealand radio interview where Forrest admits that it is, or you choose to believe he was lying or being misleading at that time. And if the latter, then you should probably question why you would believe anything Forrest has said or written.

            I *am* with you, however, that the first stanza is not just set up or fluff. IMO it contains critical information without which you will not identify WWWH. So in Forrest’s vernacular, stanza #1 contains a hint to figuring out the one WWWH out of all the other millions.

          • Hi JDA:

            “I disagree that ‘And take it in the canyon down’ is a stand-alone clue. I say this because there is no punctuation after the first line. With no punctuation, lines one and two must be read as one sentence, one complete thought.”

            I would be careful drawing conclusions from what you believe are the grammatic implications of Forrest’s punctuation, or the lack thereof. If anyone would be disinclined to follow strict rules of grammar, it would be Forrest. It’s not as if he wouldn’t be in good company. There’s the famous Penelope soliloquy in Ulysses:


            Or Faulkner’s “Sound and the Fury”:

            “My God the cigar what would your mother say if she found a blister on her mantel just in time too look here Quentin we’re about to do something we’ll both regret I like you liked you as soon as I saw you I says he must be …”

            You can find other examples by Lewis Carroll, E. E. Cummings, Jane Austen, Cormick McCarthy and even Shakespeare. Or perhaps draw conclusions from Forrest’s own words:

            “Since I hid my treasure I can’t get by with any malfunctions in my writing. I received emails from two English teachers who criticized my use of commas and semi colons, and each one corrected me in a different way. So I just punctuate the way that looks right to me and hope that no one sends me marijuana cookies.”

          • Zap, it’s been a while since I’ve seen that quote from Mr. Fenn in regards to the punctuation, etc.. I wonder why he mentioned marijuana cookies in his statement. To prove a point about punctuation?

          • first i am shocked that you see 3 clues in one sentence.
            Also i have not read that you include the NF.

            I have mentioned 2 areas that include all 7 letters and i willl be interested to hear or read where you are searching.


        • we feel they thought they had the right HOB and lucked out. there are brown things and people all over

          remember Mr Fenn said they got first two clues. the third clues is HOB therefore they didn’t have the right HOB

          as my daddy would say it was just DUMB LUCK! not that they were dumb no insult intended. they just didnt know

    • The Count;
      if you scream or cry you will know where this tip is in the forrest book clipping, there are 2 pages a set with the other
      So, how are we born?

      • “Begin Wear” …warm water halts. DIAPER. Add Y.
        YDIAPER = why’d I appear ? and you reincarnation fans, that carnation in your lapel at the funeral?
        YReincarnation = wire in carnation. But best yet, the last word in the dictionary, the African bread Zwieback.
        YZwieback = Why’s we back ? Gotta’ love ‘it”.

    • Imo…
      I see 4 clues in the second paragraph.
      #1. Biwwwh–the starting point
      #2. Tiitcd–directional
      #3. Nfbtftw–distance
      #4. Pibthob–the stopping point
      (F said 3 or 4, I’m choosing 4)

      Searchers have been to wwh, took the correct direction in the canyon, but went too far thru the canyon, passing the other 7 clues, because they passed the “put in”—HOB. So, they drove passed trout, a beaver pond, a bear and a circus of other creatures? Lol! No! They drove past a geographical feature that F sees as his HOB. Now, that could be a river, or a particular Forrest or rock formation.
      F may be calling the chest “Brown” and to park below it’s hidey spot (about ten miles down canyon, per TFTW). SO, in that case, you are NOT looking for a feature nor animal but driving the indicated distance, because it’s important to get distance correct! Just ask the ones that went past it!

      Now, at the Brown’s spot, you mustn’t be meek, stay off the trail (which means you are brave and in the wood) and your Creek just has flowing water, follow it to the blaze.
      If you were brave to leave civilization’s trail, you will be rewarded with the cold chest of gold.
      That’s my take. I didn’t share all my findings, that would be foolish, don’t you think?

      • Hi Namor, I have considered a wide range of theories. The chest being Brown was one of them. The problem I had with that theory is how, using the poem, do you know where to park below it? I suppose you could look for a place that one would consider NPFTM but what would that look like and does the poem point to this place?

        I do not believe there is anything wrong with looking at this thing from different angles. IMO the poem requires some different thinking than most will attempt.

  4. See also Spiro Mound
    I think Forrest cross referenced this, lol, if I remember correctly. Fait accompli

  5. Good morning all.
    I don’t believe that HOB has anything to do with brown trout. That’s just my opinion.

    • I also think the HOB is the Lamar Ranger Station—a popular search spot over the past few years.

      To me, the only capital “B” in the poem would be a proper name. And is a respectful homage to Ranger Gary Brown, who lived in Yellowstone with his family. I even purchased “Yellowstone Wildlife in Winter,” National Geographic magazine, November 1967 which shows a photo of Ranger Brown and his station in the Lamar Valley.

      Some Googling led me to this obituary, but I haven’t confirmed if this is THE Ranger Gary Brown. http://missoulian.com/news/local/obituaries/gary-g-brown/article_fee35eae-31cb-11df-b5f7-001cc4c03286.html

      *RIP Mr. Brown

      I’ve had boots on the ground twice in YNP and I plan to go back in August 2018. If anyone else is scouring the Lamar Valley like I am, feel free to reach out.

      Cheers and happy hunting everyone!

    • I have seen a few speculations on this and thought about it myself. If that is HoB what would be a good NPFTM?

      • Aaron – you’re hitting on an obscure issue. Since we’re told clues are contiguous and sequential in poem, reread “Put in below the house of Brown” and “From there it’s no place for the meek” again. Offhand, one can interpret “from there” as either the “put in” or HOB, but each has issues: (1) if “from there” refers to “put in” then HOB becomes out of sequence! (2) if “from there” refers to HOB then I think there’s a path gap between “put in” and HOB unless “put in” is HOB (3) both issues hinge on both “put in” and HOB as clue places, but we can’t be sure. In this manner, Charlie’s recent question asking for citation that HOB is a clue becomes interesting.

        My only solve has NPFTM optional at put in or HOB, and HOB optional as clue or not. I’d love FF to tell us what # clue HOB is, but doubt this will ever happen.

        • Matt, to me it makes sense that from there is referring to from the put in. You may or may not have to even go to HOB, just somewhere below it. In any case I do not see NPFTM as an option. It is somewhere you need to go before reaching no paddle.

      • NPFTHM=No Place For The Meek
        This has often been thought to be a reference to
        Joe Meek. And for good reason. The only hitch is that meek is not capitalized in the poem. Here is the story of Joe Meek in Yellowstone (it even has a curious reference to Pittsburg and the artistic view)
        Right now I personally think that NPFTM may draw me to artists point above the Yellowstone Canyon. Mostly because of this story.

        • MH, some of your theory makes sense. Why not a view of the Grand Canyon of Yellowstone for being the special place. The one problem I see with this path is that if you put in below the ranger station how do you end up above the Yellowstone Canyon? Is there something that makes you go from below to above?

        • Read that line from right to left. What are the first 5 letters?

          “A little of me is also in the box”.

  6. Botg I’m back, too much to think about from the past, let’s move forward, whatever that mean…

    Won’t be able to tell much about my trips today but soon.

  7. Dan Brown?? As above so below. Poem starts with As and last stanza starts with So. Poem hits 33 spaces at longest point. 33 degree. Weishaupt name forms a pyramid in poem if placed in spread sheet. With last two letters at positions 4 and 24 for confirmation. Not four but two four. Well just an idea with a lot of imagination.

  8. HOB I believe is definitely the secondary key to unlocking the rest of the poem. Without it, one can wander all over the Rockies for decades. As WWWH is naturally the primary key, without knowing exactly what the meaning of WWWH, one can stumble around for decades. As ff, has said imagination is needed, and IMHO the first two hints are right under everyone’s noses and most believe YNP is the area, because F spent his young life there and is one of his favorite places, doesn’t necessarily make it the starting point.

    At the very end of the Preface in TTOTC is a very wise hint to all searchers it says “Life is a game of poker, Happiness is the pot. Fate deals you four cards and a joker, etc…”

    Ask your selves is YNP really a joker? And what truly convinces you throughly that NYP is the starting point? IMHO it’s a bluff. Remember FF is a poker player.

    • Then why would he say he would bet on me my search spot is Montana He Didn’t say he would bet on no one in New Mexico or Colorado and the two omegas are only on the story he wrote on me and in his book

      • Digging gypsy it wasn’t about where u were searching it was about his opinion of u. he was thinking u are VERY resourceful & smart. U are able to think on your toes & problem solve. You are rare amount women.

      • Second try. Digging gypsy its wasn’t about where u were searching the statement about u & your abilities. Your tenacity & brains to solve promblems.

      • Montana – something special about it – Hope to put it on my map 2018. Montana was a hint I missed for a long time – but not any more. Never been there, but it’s probably one of a kind in its own special way.

    • Diggin — I think Forrest would bet on you regardless of where you were searching because of your tenacity. 😉 But that said, I’m quite confident you are searching in the right state.

  9. As for the HOB is something that can stand time as I believe f mentioned the TC may no be found for years. So HOB has to stand time physically. IMHO

    I don’t believe log cabins can stand time, mentioned earlier about the cabin that this ranger named Brown lived in. I don’t believe Brown has anything to do with a structure. referenced in the poem “in the wood”, f mentioned “in the wood” has nothing to do with a structure. I believe this holds true with Brown. IMO, IMHO

      • Thanks Bob, I’ve been wondering about sub for a couple of years! Exactly what are you subscribing too?
        I know BROWN is the main answer to this poem!
        I mean really look at the book everything is brown,,brown, BROWN even the interior, quite maddening indeed!
        But, I think I have at last found the mysterious Brown…. I think!
        Time will tell, maybe next Late spring if I’m alive!
        Thanks Dal, best regards.

        • your welcome, Martha. I had the same question when a number people just randomly posted “sub” . I think it was Jonsey who clarified it for me so I paid it forward.

      • Actually, not subscribing to the latest post, you are subscribing for updates to the thread, to see who posts what, when. JDA

  10. In 2013 Forrest emailed me twice in a few minted of each other and said marti where is your home me being silly I said the truck I travel a lot he wrote back and said noooooo marti where is your home ? Then I said blue ridge ga. Then he went quite he was trying to make a
    Point with me I guess is that home is where I reside most of the time. That was a day or two after he just finish writeing to far to walk He sent it to me thru email the PDF version

    • DG,
      If I can suggest something… ‘where is your home’? needs something to put it in perspective. You gave two examples… your truck you live out of while on the road, yet you don’t live on the road, right? Your residence in GA. is where you live at, right?
      But lets go a bit further… where is your ‘home’ ~Where do you ‘inhabit’… depending on context… you inhabit in a town, city, state, a country, a continent, and if ever abducted by aliens, you inhabit the 3rd rock from the sun… The question now falls to, what Brown refers to and it’s habitation.

      I think fenn may have been planting the thought of… “home” and its meaning/usages, in relationship to whatever “Brown” refers to in the poem.

      Just a thought……. hoB might be larger than a truck or house. Yet, very specific.

      • FYI – can’t be third rock from the sun – how does one get “below” it? Perspective is key. If HOB is large, the question stands, how do you “put in below” it?

        I could see how a person might consider a mountain peak named Brown as a point of reference to put in below, but in my opinion, that seems to be a stretch.

        I suspect, when it is all done and said, the person that picks up Indulgence will have figured out that HOB is a very specific place in the wood.

        • If, wwh is within hoB, then hoB can certainly be a large area. You simply go to the end [ boundary ]. to be at hlawh.
          Hence you need to nail down wwh to know hoB and know hoB is the only place for that, one and only wwh. [ Both have a connection to each other.. without one, the other is a guess ].
          As well as, those clues having a connection to everything else… without one clue [physical references] the other clues would not be [also those clues that are, physical references]… for the most part, anyways.

          Contiguous as in sequence….
          The thought / theory won’t be understood if all you can think is;
          Each point needs stomping out [or even driven lol ], or,
          Each clue reference is a physical reference, And there must be 9 physical points.

          The literal or linear thinker just won’t get it…
          It’s just a theory like everyone’s postings… even the ones who know what they think they know.

          You can call this my opinion… but I think it’s more an observation.

          • hey Seeker – how do you know

            “And there must be 9 physical points.”

            I recall a recent post of yours where FF quote hinted at such (9 clues are locations) but I don’t recall diddly squat of quote. Do you recall FF quote?

          • Hi,
            Did the same 9 clues exist when you were a kid and to your estimation will they still exist in 100 years and 1000 years?
            Thanks ~Ron

            Thanks Ron, thoughtful questions
            The clues did not exist when I was a kid but most of the places the clues refer to did. I think they might still exist in 100 years but the geography probably will change before we reach the next millennia. The Rocky mountains are still moving and associated physical changes will surely have an impact. If you are in the year 3,009 it will be more difficult for you to find the treasure.f

          • Matt, the quote went something like ” if you knew the geographic location of the nine clues it would be a map to the treasure”! probably not verbatim but it’s close.

          • Matt,
            I’m not sure which quote you’re referring to… If you’re talking about searchers walking by the remaining seven clues and the chest comment[s].
            One being; “Several months ago some folks correctly mentioned the first two clues to me in an email and then they went right past the other seven, not knowing that they had been so close. Alas, and dame fortune, so often a fickle and seductive wench, never spun her wheel to lure them back.”

            It doesn’t really say all the clues are places.
            Example; how do you put a ‘place’ to; Not far, but too far to walk?
            Is, the end is ever drawing nigh a place? Or look quickly down,…?

            But go back and read my post again… I think you misunderstood what you quoted me saying.

          • kudos Questgeek – your ” if you knew the geographic location of the nine clues it would be a map to the treasure” is close enough that I can probably chase it down. All I recall about Seeker’s FF quote is that it strongly inferred that all 9 clues are geographical, but didn’t infer that all 9 clues are 9 different locations.

            Seeker – I tried searching for your quote across 4 threads recently, but you how broken up threads get here…

            I’ve been out of the loop most of the past few days due to a freak bicycle accident that makes computer access a tad uncomfy (old age sucks, I don’t bounce like a 20 yr old anymore).

          • Sure, below can mean in a southern direction… but we need to know what warm and halt refer to first, don’t we?

            I think that these two words are indicators to both running waters and frozen waters. But, what we also have are different indicators of possible colors… brown; to reference something, and warm to reference a color and something else. however, we are looking for waters halt… So, how do you find waters that halt from the indicators above-?- and are all still contiguous… A sequence that needs all three indicator, and clue references, to explain where it all is at.

            In theory, the need to nail down the first clue tells us -“From there”- is where to go next… in this case, heavy loads and water high.

            If all that BS is remotely correct… instead of reading a map as directions, see it as, an explanation.

            yeah yeah, I know, I almost forgot…the above is; just food for thought.

          • Seeker, Questgeek, all – here’s that elusive quote…

            “But if you knew the geographic location of each clue it would be a map to the treasure.” MW 4-5-2017

            Unless I’m daft, it appears that each of the 9 clues are specific geographical ‘locations’. I’m becoming more convinced that HOB can’t be a clue, but simply the Juggernaut ‘hint’ (not on the path).

          • Matt Brown, and others,

            “Unless I’m daft, it appears that each of the 9 clues are specific geographical ‘locations’. I’m becoming more convinced that HOB can’t be a clue, but simply the Juggernaut ‘hint’ (not on the path).”

            Or, that the clues may or may not be more or less than 9 specific geographical points. I suspect that some of the clues may be saying something about more than one geographical spot. Geometrically, it takes four points on the same plane to place a particular spot on the plane where the line segments cross. Easier to illustrate than to explain. My gut tells me that Mr. Fenn has constructed the poem in a similar fashion. That is, it is my opinion that nine clues do NOT equal nine geographical points to be found on the map. But I do not have Indulgence in my possession, so what do I know?

            Your mileage may vary,


          • Well swwot, I have had a change of heart. For months I preache

            “1 sentence = 1 clue.”

            I have had a change of heart. I now believe the following:

            The Nine Clues
            Clue #1 Begin it where warm waters halt And take it in the canyon down,
            = Physical objects
            Clue #2 Not far, but too far to walk.= A distance – 10 miles.
            Clue #3 Put in below the home of Brown.= A physical location and thing
            Clue #4 From there it’s no place for the meek, = A physical location.
            Clue #5 = The end is ever drawing nigh; = A physical location.
            Clue #6 = There’ll be no paddle up your creek, = Something physical.
            Clue #7 = Just heavy loads and water high = two physical things
            Clue #8 = If you’ve been wise and found the blaze, Look quickly down, your quest to cease. = Something physical
            Clue #9 = But tarry scant with marvel gaze, Just take the chest and go in peace. = Chest is physical.

            All other lines in the poem are hints that help with the clues. BIG CHANGE in thought processes – JDA

          • I’m getting anxious for Dal to post my latest missive on the blaze as I think it’s a really interesting thought, particularly as it relates to your clue listing.

          • Hi All,
            Here are 9 trail markers, location identifiers, geographical spots, places or locations that the clues refer to; i.e. points of reference as bearings for navigation to the TC.

            Clue #1 – A PLACE where WWH.
            Clue#2 – a PLACE where there is a canyon.
            Clue #3 – a PLACE where Brown’s home is.
            Clue #4 – a PLACE where there is a creek.
            Clue #5 – a PLACE where there is Heavy Loads.
            Clue #6 – a PLACE where there is Water High.
            Clue #7 – a PLACE where there is a Blaze.
            Clue #8 – a PLACE where there is Cold.
            Clue #9 – a PLACE where there is Wood.

            Just my observation.

          • Well JDA,
            welcome to the darkside and “discounting half the poem” as you say.
            Curious why you segregated based on punctuation from Begin, yet stop that process at the last line of cease?

          • JDA,

            I hear you, loud and clear. My thoughts and conclusions on this quest have coalesced over time as well. Flexibility is an important component to the correct solve; again, in my opinion. If we hold too tightly onto a “solve”, I think we are beginning to fool ourselves. I still am of the opinion that until we get into the woods, we won’t know for absolutely 100% that we are correct. We’ll be confident, but not sure.

          • Sam Sam,

            There is a PLACE where he has gone alone.
            There is a PLACE where he keeps his secrets.
            There is no PLACE for the meek.
            There is a PLACE for his trove.

            There are probably a couple others I missed. And you help me make my point that there are more than 9 places mentioned in the poem to help guide us in the woods. Not every place mentioned in the poem is a clue, in my opinion.

          • Swwot,
            I agree, except almost every word in the poem is helpful in determining the final destination. I’m not going to find the quote but ff essentially stated, and I believe it was a MW question, that nearly every word in the poem has significance and that it would be unwise to discount any word in the poem for purposes of directions to the TC. So basically every word is an essential part of one or another clue, (or more than one) for purposes of solving the so-called nine clues; i.e. correctly identifying what and where those land markers are.

            One other line that potentially points to a location would be “riches new and old.”

            There is a PLACE where he has gone alone:
            This would be the mountains north of Santa Fe generally and specifically it would also inclued the final destination of where the chest rests.

            There is a PLACE where he keeps his secrets:
            ff keeps his secrets in his mind.

            There is no PLACE for the meek:
            “FROM THERE” (below HOB and every place (geographical location, trail marker) forward is no place for the meek)

            There is a PLACE for his trove:
            This location is not a clue just the final destination to be discovered if all the 9 clues are identified correctly and one follows the directions relative to the trail markers correctly.

          • Regarding whether 9 clues mean 9 specific locations – I don’t know where in thread this will appear…

            “But if you knew the geographic location of each clue it would be a map to the treasure.” MW 4-5-2017

            1st read is likely that the 9 clues are 9 locations, but a 2nd read might be some multiple clues for some locations; so, maybe less than 9 specific locations. My point is that I see “each clue” as “all clues” either way, and since FF says “geographical location”, any direction or distance may appear fuzzy. So, if NFBTFTW is a 10 mile stretch of roadway, then I have no problem with 10 miles of roadway as a ‘geographical location’.

            If all 9 clues are locations only, then all directions and distances must be ‘within’ location clues like “canyon down” to insure contiguous path. IOW, if canyon down intersects a cross road (lame example) with optional left-right ‘put in’, then searcher takes left or right option that goes towards HOB.

          • WR

            It was a long process. Forrest says that clue #1 = BIWWWH ATIITCD. I added ATIITCD because there is no punctuation after wwh.

            If this is clue #1 – what are we to do with stanza #1? Several months ago, I moved stanza’s 5 and 6 to on top of stanza #1. Old stanza #5 asks a question – all riddles start with a question AND it seemed logical that the last CLUE would end with you taking the chest and going in peace.

            Therefore to me, old stanza 5, 6 and 1 become HINTS – leaving old stanza’s 2,3 and 4 as CLUES – that simple. So with old stanza’s 2, 3 and 4 as the clues. the old one sentence = i clue made no sense, so I reworked it – I renumbered my clues – that simple.

            Nothing changed relative to my solve. The only thing that changed was what I call things. Hope that is clear. JDA

          • Matt Brown ~”So, if NFBTFTW is a 10 mile stretch of roadway, then I have no problem with 10 miles of roadway as a ‘geographical location’.”

            How can a ‘stretch of road’ [ a 10 mile stretch ] be a “geographical location” by definition to mean; two coordinates, longitude and latitude. A geographical location is an absolute, a road is a locality… Especially, if we need to consider that the poem will lead “precisely” to the a 10″ sq piece of land.

            I’m not saying there IS coordinates involved… but if there is any type of calculating involved at all [for a solve]… is 10 miles of section of road that precise to locate a clue that might be a very small location, [ that’s 52,800 feet of possible miscalculation ] nevertheless a 10″ sq hidden chest?

            But, if that 10 miles is actual [ and needed as a geographical location for a clue ]… why wasn’t it add with the original information… the poem and/or TTOTC?

            Doesn’t sound to me that a “10 mile guess” from the start [2010], would be precise [ “follow precisely” ].

            LOL that’s a big oops! to misplace.

          • Seeker – you’re loosing your edge – oh yeah, IMO.

            Huh…AFAIC an unknown 10 mile stretch of roadway is just as valid as an unknown…country, state, county, city, or pile of doo-doo. Am I missing something?

            IOW whatever finite distance your NFBTFTW is, it also becomes a valid geographical location ‘down the canyon’.

          • I think it is amazing how we can all decipher the same clues so different, maybe that is why it hasn’t been found..I will have to agree with seeker on this one although that doesn’t mean much seeing as how neither one of us has the chest!!

          • hi matt i dont want to show how dumb i am but i just cant figure out what “NFBTFTW ” means. most i can figure out but i am stuck on this one please.

          • JDA – my current read on clues is very similar yours…I have exactly the first 7 clues per yours, but I ‘unbundle’ your clue #8 into my clues #8 & #9. Thus, by chance, my clues all end with punctuation and that leading “And” disappears into singular clue. In past, I saw NFBTFTW similar Seeker, and pondered how can any ‘unknown’ distance be a clue, especially if we think most clues are geographical locations. However, once it dawned on me that IF we assign ANY arbitrary length to NFBTFTW, then everything was cool, IMO. I then saw “and take it in the canyon down” as a mere direction without location, so I could combine it with WWWH (likely same as you).

            Gadz, hard to believe 166 words can mess with your head this much…

          • JDA – PS, I found your wet response on another blog from past…(safe with me) – best regards, Matt

    • Digging gypsy,
      Would you provide the context to which Fenn responded to you?
      You asked him something then he asked where you live. The way he responds is tricky as you know and proper understanding is key.

      • Diggin Gypsy. Thank you for sharing your information. Do you think he could have been referring to “your home is where your heart is?” Not your house….but your home. I believe Forrest’s heart, is with the native American people. I believe his home of Brown, is in an Indian reservation very special to him. And he is anchored there, with them.

    • Hi Diggin g,
      That exchange with Forrest suggests to me that he is trying to expand your thoughts regarding “home”.

      For me, expanding “home” makes me think of “home on the range” and that fits in with thoughts Forrest MAY have had such as “my home is in the mountains, though I live there only on occasion”. THAT IS NOT A QUOTE OF FORREST, quotation marks are for ease of reading only.

      Those thoughts make me more satisfied with my Uncle Joe hypothesis.

      From Robert V. Gross’s (Geyser Bob) “Yellowstone Park Historical Service” web page (http://www.lchr.org/a/36/18/Bio_Joe-Brown.html):
      “Joe Brown made Park County his home for the rest of his life and managed to mine enough of the precious yellow metal to spend his days in relative economic comfort.”

      Many many searchers have zero’d in on the Joe Brown boat ramp, myself included. A well scoured area indeed. But hey, same with Madison Junction for “where warm waters halt”. Only something wise-er-other will get you to the blaze.


  11. This may be from faded memory Diggin and possibly incorrect, but weren’t you trying to locate ‘the home of Brown’ when these emails were exchanged?

    FYI and IMO you did get the point he was making but maybe you didn’t make the connection? Where is ‘the home of Brown’? Where does ‘Brown’ reside? After going quiet then sending the PDF of TFTW, maybe he was trying to hint that you were walking too far in your search for ‘the home of Brown’?

    Don’t want to sound presumptuous, just something I noticed long ago about the question he asked you. For my own solution ‘the home of Brown’ is right where you see it in the poem. There is a purpose and function for ‘Brown’ to be where ‘Brown’ resides. But that’s IMO…

    • Yes I was on my second clue and he asked me them questions So then I realized it’s a place where u have your permanent residence

      • Maybe a lot more interesting than you realize pd…

        Especially when the purpose of the first two clues is established and the instructions given are followed precisely…

        But. like I said, that’s IMO…and very few people would grasp the concept easily since most believe a ‘canyon’ is simply a canyon with a watercourse to travel down…

        To me that’s a misinterpretation, and ‘canyon’ means something else in the context of the clue in the poem…

          • Can’t be certain how many I may now understand, the last two are really tricky for me yet…I think I have figured it out to the ‘blaze’ but even there I have a choice to make for direction…

            Been to the location once in 2015…Not able to go again yet and I won’t go until I have more certainty…Have talked with others looking in the same area and have eliminated some possibilities… Nothing found as yet but we email and are working it out I think…

            Wasn’t sure of much back then, but I now know more about the lay of the land from walking around the area myself on the one occasion…I continue using GE now and then to scan the landscape…Mostly interested in how a few have been within 80 paces(200ft) and walked on by…Gotta be some barrier/boundary just not being crossed for some reason or their direction is off…

            Forrest spoke correctly in stating the location is huge and that small destination is very elusive with so many possible hiding spots available…Not to mention trying to understand what the clues refer to…

            It is really difficult to discuss the location without revealing too much that may identify it, so much of what I say may sound cryptic in nature…

            I know there are a lot of smart people trying to figure out this poem and it’s puzzle…However, I am inclined to believe that in general folks tend to decide where the chest SHOULD be based on what they think they know about Forrest Fenn…

            This, to me, is a bad approach to solving the poem…This approach has no longevity…If all the info needed to locate the treasure is truly in the poem, then the poem must also contain the instructions for solving the riddle contained within it…Of course one must know the purpose of the poem in the first place, the back story…

            Just as Forrest said TTOTC wrote itself, I work with the idea that the poem also will help solve itself…I see how to/DIY instructions that result in where to places/directions in the poem…

            And thinking the simple words used in the poem are to be taken literally is the greatest error one can make IMO…NOTHING is as it appears to be on first glance, NOTHING!…

          • samsmith, I would have to agree with Charlie in regards to the measurement. The average step would be approximately 30″ long. This would equal to about 6-8 steps. Just the thought of that makes one wonder how it may have been missed unless it were elevation.

            This is an opinion, offered as a thought.

          • Stand corrected, samsmith. My apoplogies. I believe it does equal to approximately eighty paces. Trying to redo my Math figures now.

          • Indeed 80 paces!

            2400 inches in 200 ft., divided by 30 inches per average step equals to eighty.

            You’re so smart, samsmith! 🙂

          • we made a mockup of TC. we made a 5 sided box out of wood. we measured off 200 ft. marking the parking lot with caulk. we placed the box on one end and walked back to the other end and turn around. mind you this was a bright sunny day and we could barely see the box. there were no trees, tall grass, brushes, weeds, rocks, rough ground we were in a straight line and we couldnt hardly see out “TC” lol in our last search area we could have been standing on the chest and we might not have know. this is a repeat but its important.

          • samsmith, do you believe the last clues would/should be easier to understand? I keep thinking Mr. Fenn may have stated they get easier as they go.

          • yup, was doing my step of 32″, sorry Sam. Would help if I read “average” I guess. To save face, it’s not exact since we don’t know the height of the people, but then again, I think f said “around” or “approximate” 200′. So, I can see 80 paces as close enough.

  12. In lieu of just posting a “sub” to stay on top of these discussions, I can at least share that I have recently switched to a new hoB in my solve area that I like way more than my original. A BOTG visit to my new hoB gave me a much-needed (false?) confidence boost. IMO, there are not too many options to go from there in order to follow the rest of the poem… in fact, I only see two. I tried the first option out on my last BOTG trip and came up empty (though I did have an incredibly wonderful day of hiking anyway), and hope to follow up on the second option before the end of this season. If I come up empty again, I think I’ll feel pretty good about crossing my entire solve area off the list for the end of season. I plan to share all of my adventures later this year!

    • Blex, if everyone will post their “General Solve” Dallas will be swamped, but if all 9 clues and hints work, you could be the code breaker, imagine that?


      • “If you don’t find it, then who? f”

        To me, this is one of Forrest’s most encouraging quotes. Who knows? 😉

  13. Hi all, first time blogger from New Zealand here. Just another fascinated person trying to decipher the poem! I have been wondering if anyone else here has had their search end up in the Royal Gorge ? I found info on a Clara Brown who resided in Central City just left of Blackhawk, CO which led me to Cañon city (archaeic spelling of Canyon) and ended up down the Arkansas river in Royal Gorge which then led me to Pueblo Reservoir which is a popular fishing spot for Brown trout and also the name Pueblo struck me as FFs famous discovery was a Pueblo but I dont know. I have another theory but that ends up in Denver near the Molly Brown house but im just interested to hear other peoples ideas and whether they ended up near Royal Gorge, besides the man who was found drowned there recently.

    • Hi Jordan! Thanks for introducing yourself and welcome to the Chase!

      I was taking a look at the area after the unfortunate drowning story, but I couldn’t find anything that stuck well in my mind. However, I can confidently say that the Pueblo Reservoir is very much in the plains and not in the Rocky Mountains.

      • And it is too close to the Rio Grande. It is not in the Rio Grande. It is a great place to visit as I went there with my parents. I also believe it is not “in the mountains” as FF said it is “in the mountains.”

    • Jordan;

      Welcome to the chase. Have fun, don’t sweat the small stuff, and stay positive – Most of all, Have fun!!! JDA

  14. I totally agree. Not in YNP. In NM. Also, I’ve changed my thoughts to believe the poem is very condensed and clues are very close to one another. I use to think they could include about a 10-20 mile radius from beginning to end, but after 3 BOTG and reviewing FF comments, I think that was a faulty assumptions, IMHO. I believe if you get WWWH and Home of Brown, you are close.

      • West of Rio Grande. I went to Ojo Caliente and didn’t like that area at all. Was not Fenny. Love Enchanted Circle area.

    • I also agree that YNP is not the place as I have mentioned before, 3 hints in the order, WWWH, canyon down, HOB. With those specific 3, IMO will put one in the specific area, after that all else is easy. This holds true with my solve even after my BOTG a second visit will either be the find or makes me find a different solve. IMHO all the clues fit perfectly to my solve in the correct order. I simply made the error of, “in the wood”.

      I wish I could go on a whim, but will have to wait for 2018. My HOB will withstand stand time, IMO.

  15. My problem with capital “B” Brown being a person, is Forrest’s statements that I have interpreted to mean that a knowledge of history, culture, etc. is not crucial. But nevertheless, IMO, a person it is.

    • Joseph – Sorry I can not agree. I do NOT think that it is a person – so that leaves a place or thing (or both) I guess. JDA

      • Hey, no worries JDA, I get it.

        My hesitation regarding B=person is somewhat ameliorated by “Brown” being so horribly vague. Just about any place/thing interpretation leans on something other than geography, quite often surname-derived

        This is a tough clue.
        Peace, j

      • “Brown” – being it is capitalized, means FF is alluding to a proper place or a person – if he is still allowing for proper grammar to be included with his writings.

        IMO – it is a helpful clue to hone in on a region that is quite large.

        Can one “reverse engineer” this clue to understand it’s validity in the path one needs to take while looking for the TC?

        I think so. I also think that FF also placed a subtle hint within TTOTC to also helps in defining this clue.

        But that is just me. IMO – it really didn’t tell me a starting point that is clear and precise, but does confirm a starting point I already had.

  16. Samsmith, you referenced your solve to the blaze, but having to pick a direction. I have a post in to Dal that he prob won’t post until next week that you’re going to want to keep an eye out for. #tease

    Also… Bus.

    • TKS FMC…I’ll watch for it, got me curious…

      The reason for my comment was that my ‘blaze’ is developed in the solution, something one wouldn’t recognize as such since it appears as an unconventional marker for direction…

      And there is a choice of one direction or its opposite(mirror image) based on the next or following phrase in the poem, “Look quickly down”… as I interpret that to mean “Sight directly along this line”…

      Yeah, I know…WTH are you talking about?…lol

      • samsmith, I don’t know that I’d go as far as to call
        you “dangerous” (as competition), but your posting
        shows that your brain can work well. Good luck.

        • Tks focus…Don’t think I’ve lost all my marbles yet, but I often think there must be a small hole in the bag somewhere.

          But if you haven’t been wise, you may not find the second point of the sighting line for the blaze…Good luck to ya, and AJ as well…

  17. Going on a fishing trip to Cold Mountain Creek real soon. Any tips on catching rainbow or brown trout? I’m not the greatest at catching them yet.

    • Three weeks ago, my family and I were fishing on the Madison. I was using a dry Dun, and a fish immediately took it, but couldn’t land it. Have fun.

      • My mistake, we fished the Madison, but also Slough Creek. It was Slough Creek I was using the dry Dun.

        • Thank you for the help but I am looking for a Perk Muzzle which I hear might be able to solve this dilemma. I hear they catch one every time! Do you happen to know where I can buy one of those?

  18. What is frustrating is no one is actually telling anyone what their Home of Brown is. I did. Let’s all share our thoughts of what would be a good home of Brown.

    • hi Patrick i am very sorry we can not share our HOB. No one has picked this and we are worried if we revealed it we would lose our chance to find TC. we dont think we can but we meet try in Oct. but its very doubtful. so it will be next august before we could reveal our HOB hope you understand

      • How about sharing past solves Home of Brown that have not worked out? After 3 BOTG, I finally realized my solve was not correct. Everything lined up so well! But it was not a correct solve. No one so fa has a correct solve.

        • If someone said brown canyon or brown hole or person brown, even brown bear… Why would it matter? It’s way that matters because you go looking for Brown you won’t get the correct wwwh.

          Just keep all the options in your mind.

    • Hi Patrick….if I do, everyone will hone in on the spot. Not willing to do that yet.

      Sorry, but good luck anyhow.

      Be safe out there!

      • What state do you search. I only ask so i can go to sleep not worried you in my area. Lol feeling paranoid

        • …*winks*.. ,one of the four states known.

          You will either have to ask others or look through the blogs.

          I won’t say it openly anymore….sorry.

          Good luck to you.

      • one of these is for Sean Sean do you live in NM?

        W.R. we did find the poem EXTREMELY perplexing until i read somewhere FF said to keep it simple. we used a very simple tact and BAM! now if we ever get BOG again remains to the problem.

  19. The home of Brown is where the treasure is, or at least it is close to it.. Forrest has said if he revealed it, searchers would find the TC. People don;t want to divulge their hoB in case it is the correct one. Anyway, that is how I feel about it.

    • Maybe the chest is not close to it [ hoB ] maybe “put in below the home of Brown” holds the word that is key…

      • Seeker, more than one “word that is key” can help
        a searcher correctly solve the poem. Some words
        are more “key” than others, of course.

        Good luck.

        The above is my opinion.

          • I’m of the mind that if FF revealed the hoB, he would not necessarily be revealing the location per se but actually the method used to find it. And THAT knowledge would lead you straight to it. I continue to search in vain for that avenue.

          • beyond saying if you have the right HOB you can find a map that shows where it is therefore you can find the TC. no Mr Fenn can not name what it is.

          • Sure it is Strawshadow…Expressing ideas to help solve the chase puzzle is what it’s all about…It becomes everyone’s business once something is written on the blog…

            As far as I’m concerned there is a ‘word that is key’ as well as a ‘keyword’ in Forrest’s poem…

            If you want to see what is hidden in the house that Fenn built, put the key in the lock and turn it to open the door…

          • Sean, I think we are slightly of differing minds on this…What if the location is revealed by the method in solving the first two clues and when you get there, the hoB is staring you in the face?

            Maybe that’s why he told a questioner that if they knew what/where the hoB was, why would they be concerned about wwwh(re-engineering it).

            He also told an interviewer that if he told her what hoB was, she could walk right to the treasure.

            Sounds to me as if hoB is AT the location revealed by clues 1 & 2 and where you’re gonna go BOTG…And ff said a few have been there and walked right on by(the clues? the chest? both?)…

            That may sound strange and that I’ve skipped over a clue(s)…But lines 5, 6, & 7 of the poem tell me something completely different than what most searchers read in them…

            I see these lines NOT as directions to go somewhere initially, but as instructions to do something to FIND OUT where to go…

            That’s why if you know the hoB, you’re already at the location you need to be and the first two clues don’t matter then, since their purpose was to bring you to this location…

            But I might be a few marbles shy too…

          • Hi samsmith….welcome to Difficulty-land. Please enjoy your stay.

            Be safe and have fun!

            *offers to shake your hand*

          • Or an identical meaning could be attributed to several key words ….. several words in the poem may be synonyms. My opinion, could be a coincidence.

          • Lyzee,
            That thought has crossed my mind as well… a word that connects to other words with the same meaning but different usages.

            I personally don’t look at, or for, a word that unlocks anything perse. [ another words; without is you can’t solve the clues ]. But I do think the word puts the poem in perspective… a word that allows the reader to think how the poem was created. Or maybe a better way of saying it, the answer to; “what took me so long?”

  20. In my opinion there have been many good possibilities suggested of where, who, or what the home of Brown is, but there is only one correct solution.

    • Curious, I don’t disagree with what you said. But I have
      found that several different interpretations work for hoB,
      including the ones that I think are not the “correct” one.

      The above is my opinion.

  21. IMO the HOB and blaze may be the same. If you have been wise and found the (blaze) home of brown…. Any thoughts on that? And combined with “in the cold (temperature)”. Someone punch some holes in my theory….plz. Maybe I can steer my brain another direction then. My solve is under….. looking in Montana.

    • Sissin09,
      What theory? you said you think hoB is the blaze… so you have wwh, a canyon, some unknown distance and the blaze [hoB]… what happen to meek or the end or creek or heavy loads and/or water high? Why is cold a temperature in your theory? why is cold even thought of in relationship to hoB as the blaze? [ps. not; “in” the cold “… effort be worth the cold”] Cold can mean evade, and the reason one might be brave [to take on a challenge] to do… maybe cold refers to water high and/or height.
      fear of height, enclosure ~ claustrophobia, gephyrophobia ~fear of bridges or crossing one…

      I would like to chat about your ideas… but the only thought you have given… hob as the blaze. We can’t poke holes as you ask, if we have such a huge creator to get around first.

      • If you go to my solve in searching in Montana and wy…Aug 2017 ish I explain my thinking on the cold. Did you read that? Thanks for thoughts!

        • My solves wwwh has to do with the cold. I have a canyon, hob that will be there for century to come…..but no chest…darn it. Been once to location, water was not halted (wasn’t cold).

    • In my opinion they are not the same thing.
      If you can crack NFBTFTW, this gives you the answer and confirms HOB, then move on accordingly.
      Hope that helps

    • Sisson09 — it is certainly a possibility that I’ve entertained from time to time, and still cannot rule out. It could even be the “important possibility” that Forrest was hinting at. Suffice to say there is a blaze candidate that can also work for HoB.

  22. JDA, I agree Brown is not a person. From everything I’ve read I get the feeling that I’m searching the same general location as your team..

      • Yes I’m in Wy., Why would you doubt it ? And like you I can’t discuss my wwwh ,bome of Brown, or anything else about my solve really without giving to much away so I guess we won’t know until one of us finds the chest.

        • Questgeek;

          I have a simple one question test that will reveal if we are searching in the same area, that does NOT reveal anything about your search area. The answer you give to this one question will let us both know if we are searching the same area. If interested, email me at SculptorJDA at aol dot com. JDA

  23. Sisson09, I guess that could be possible but I don’t think so. If the nine clues are geographic locations and home of Brown is #3 or #4 then wouldn’t that mean that almost all the other clues would have to be in the same place as home of Brown and the blaze? I hope you follow my line of thinking here.

    • Questgeek ~”If the nine clues are geographic locations… Home of brown is #3 or #4…”
      I understand you stated IF… but lets run with that for a second. There as to be some distance involved, whether feet or miles… We are told the clues are contiguous [ that could mean in the poem or in the field or both ]… I’d like to throw out another word that I think works inline with contiguous…
      Sequence; a particular order in which related events, movements, or things follow each other.

      I mention this because you ‘seem’ to be saying clue are 9 different geographical… WhatIF hoB is where all the contiguous clues… clues in sequence, refer to? Would hoB be an individual clue, or the premise of all the clues?
      Which would leave “below” more of a clue than hoB as a stand alone clue.

      Just chatting about interpretations… not attempting corrections.

      • Seeker, I see what you are saying and agree that it is possible but it doesn’t work for my solve, because from there it’s no place for the meek implying that you continue moving or at least that’s how I see it.

      • pdenver…You asked me a question on Sept 18 at 5:41 pm that I never answered…I apologize, I just didn’t see it…

        Indeed Forrest stated that later clues got easier, however I believe that was somewhat of a tongue-in-cheek statement.

        I am of the opinion that figuring out what ALL the clues mean is very tricky and not as easy as he has let on. The point may be that the first two clues, which a little child from anywhere can apparently solve at home, have a certain method to figure their meaning but following clues require a different style
        or method of interpretation which may include visual recognition to understand them.

        • Thank you for responding, samsmith. I sure wish I could find these children who can figure out the first two clues. 🙂

          Do you believe all the clues can be figured out from home, and then just walk to the treasure chest?

          • I think that the clues can be figured out as to what they might mean. But to actually follow them as a path to the chest you need to be onsite. You can only see so much with a map or GE, details may require some type of visual recognition.

            Does that make sense? I don’t see every clue as a place per say, as a few may refer to direction and with maybe even a celestial observation thrown in for good measure.

            If the poem is used as a map to reach a certain spot, not only are there signposts to recognize but directions or distances to reach the next signpost should be included.

            That’s my take on it anyway.

          • All the signposts that I currently recognize as fitting the clues will be there long into the future…Well past my grandchildren’s time anyway…

            To be perfectly honest, what I think I recognize as places are all of solid stone to boot…Yes, that includes wwwh, hoB, etc….

            What about the ‘canyon’ you ask? There isn’t one. Not in Forrest’s treasure map anyway. Better say IMO with that one…lol…

            Did you know the word ‘canyon’ didn’t exist in the English language until fairly recent times? Webster’s Dict. 1828 edition…

            A few people may be surprised with the definitions of certain words as used in olden times…

            To me ‘canyon’ means something other than a vale between two prominences and has nothing to do with death either…

            As an aside, I thought for a long time that the word “vale” as in the inscription on the headstone from “My War For Me” was possibly a misspelling of the word “veil” as a concealing curtain that separates life from death…

            I’ve since come to believe that “vale” was used to indicate “the valley of the shadow of death” from the Lord’s Prayer, indicative of the passage from life into eternity, where there is no past…

            Just my musings…

          • Sorry, correction…I meant the 23rd Psalm, not the Lord’s Prayer…Don’t wish to confuse New and Old Testaments…It’s late, ya know?…

          • Thank you for explaining, samsmith. I believe I recall the year of 3009 that things might be different by then because things are always changing (paraphrasing). It would seem your thoughts may relate to such.

            Have a good evening.

          • * * * * * * samsmith supposed – “As an aside, I thought for a long time that the word “vale” as in the inscription on the headstone from “My War For Me” was possibly a misspelling of the word “veil” as a concealing curtain that separates life from death…

            I’ve since come to believe that “vale” was used to indicate “the valley of the shadow of death” ” * * * * * *

            “Vale” in the context of the headstone inscription is from a poem by the Roman poet Catullus, written for his brother’s funeral.

            The last line is “ave atque vale” which means “hail and farewell.”


          • IMHO, too many people see hints where there are none. In his books, FF has said any hints were unintentional. Too many people believe he is dropping intentional hints around everywhere and see all kinds of things that just aren’t there. Stick to the poem, otherwise it becomes too convoluted.

          • Patrick
            Normally I’d agree, however with this in his book, and the book is reference martial, the possibility should be pondered.

          • Hi Patrick – IMO there are so many hints you can’t keep track of them all. Many of them are very, very subtle until you solve the clues. Some of the hints are so slight that many will probably never notice. If you want to solve the clues don’t look for hints until you feel certain you have solved a clue. Some might disagree with this statement, but 99.99% aren’t looking at the poem correctly. IMO.

          • Hi Patrick: a slight correction to your claim that “FF has said any hints were unintentional.” That is not what he said. He said they “are not deliberately placed to aid the seeker.” If you are not a seeker of clue answers but instead a finder, that statement can take on a different meaning. Plus, don’t forget the Moby Dickens Bookshop Q&A: “There are a couple of good hints, and then there are a couple of aberrations that live out on the edge.” I stand by my belief that hints were absolutely deliberately placed by Forrest.

          • * * * * * * samsmith – ” I thought for a long time that the word “vale” as in the inscription on the headstone from “My War For Me” was possibly a misspelling of the word “veil” as a concealing curtain that separates life from death…
            I’ve since come to believe that “vale” was used to indicate “the valley of the shadow of death”” * * * * * *

            I have to RETRACT my response to this posted yesterday, with apologies.

            When I read inscription on a headstone and “vale”, I immediately thought of the latin “vale = farewell”.

            But when W. R. asked if there was any hint in ff misquoting the poem, I had to go back and re-read “My War for Me” to get the full inscription, which is a slightly altered version of HL Mencken’s Epitaph for himself.

            If you should ever think of me
            When I have passed this VALE . . .

            Which has nothing to do with latin “vale = farewell” – samsmith was right on with his “vale (or valley) of tears.”

            Apologies for shooting from the hip without checking the actual story in the book.

            To W.R.’s question about altering the epitaph possibly being a hint to something – I got no opinion about that. But I’ve never been a hint hunter or collector, and would cross the road to avoid having to run into a hint on the sidewalk.


      • Gosh, I forgot to reply about the schoolhouse. My apologies. I wish I knew where the schoolhouse is they visited.

        • SL, I wish to thank you for triggering a memory I had when I was in school. While riding home on the school bus, there was a little red, one-room schoolhouse we use to pass. I always thought it was a beautiful school. I’ve been trying to see if I can locate it on Google Earth, but not having much luck. I know it’s somewhere between Brainard, NY, and Riders Mills Road. I sure hope it’s still standing.

          • Pdenver,
            This is just referencing the Denver U, that has it above the kepler hall.
            Plus Fenn said it was in WY. Of course that could be part of the 15% that he embellished in the book, who knows but ff.

          • Having fun with strings:

            University of Northern Colorado known as the “Bears”. Connecting it to the one-room schoolhouse in Wyoming, one might think Yellowstone.

            Sports team (Bears) joined the “Big Sky” Conference in 2006. Connecting with Big Sky, MT.

            The saying is found in Kepler Hall. There’s Kepler Cascades in Yellowstone.

            Newspaper called “The Mirror” was founded in Feb. 1919. Seems to sound a little familiar.

            The traditional sororities and fraternities names have code names in the military.

            Time to unwind.

          • UNC in Greeley – it’s Kepner Hall, not Kepler.

            It’s an old building, now enlarged, but wasn’t ever a one-room schoolhouse.


          • Thank you for the correction, JAK3. As one can see, the names are quite similar. Possible hint? Who knows, but it did catch my attention. The school may not have been a one-room schoolhouse, but it does make one pause to the saying and why Wyoming was stated. Would love to hear your ideas as to why this may be.

          • I thought the Brown Hall was interesting… Not to mention the Farr Hall where the Air Force rotc is… Nothing like a good rabbit hole to slide down… 🙂

          • * * * * * * pdenver wrote – “The school may not have been a one-room schoolhouse, but it does make one pause to the saying and why Wyoming was stated. Would love to hear your ideas as to why this may be.” * * * * * *

            Well, Greeley CO grew up around Nathan Meeker and Horace Greeley’s Union Colony (agriculture, education, and temperance). They built irrigation systems and schools galore (and no saloons).

            UNC was originally a teachers college. It’s possible that ff’s dad had a colleague or acquaintance there. Or that a grad from there known to him taught at a schoolhouse in Wyoming, and brought the slogan with him-or-her from the alma mater.

            (I’m on the CO front range north of you, not too far from Greeley.)

            Here’s a good 1935 Conoco road map of Colorado, showing Greeley on the (then) direct route from Denver to Cheyenne.



          • Hello JAKe. Thank you for the information and the link. Do you believe this is the 50 miles out of the way the Fenn family traveled to see the one-room schoolhouse on their way to Yellowstone?

          • * * * * * * pdenver asked “Do you believe this is the 50 miles out of the way the Fenn family traveled to see the one-room schoolhouse on their way to Yellowstone?” * * * * * *

            Hey-O, pdenver!

            I’m not exactly sure what you’re asking – I know a little local history, and next to nothing about the Fenn family, but I’ll swing away. 😉

            If he saw the slogan in Greeley in the ’30’s, It doesn’t seem very likely that it was at a one-room schoolhouse. The Union Colony was pretty aggressive in putting up full-fledged school buildings right from the get-go, as this short account reveals –


            If the Fenn’s did see it in a one-room schoolhouse, sparsely populated Wyoming would surely be a good candidate. I don’t have any ideas about where, though, but as I mentioned earlier, Greeley was graduating teachers very early in the century, and one of them might have then taught in that one-room WYO schoolhouse. And might very well have brought the “Whoso teaches a child . . .” slogan with them from the college.


    • i have been to this place some one in a close town said those buildings had been moved from a unknown location i walked the canal t its a very cool place to visit for sure
      we were looking for the sign it is no longer there if that is in fact the school it was worth a look there is a home of Brown there but i have found many homes of Brown i even found a head stone in a cemetary with Brown on it
      what was funny about that one is that it was the first head stone i walked to it must of been 100 or more years old only in the chase do you find stuff like that good hunting Pd denver

      • Our friend, SL, is the one who deserves all the credit, Jeff. Sounds like you had a great adventure finding the things you did. 🙂

  24. pdenver,

    Had (hopefully) located your childhood red schoolhouse in NY,
    and penned the information earlier.

    Here we go….again.

    I will try again in the AM


    • Hello SL. Taking a quick moment to check the blog before leaving for Iowa. You did locate the beautiful schoolhouse from my childhood years. I am truly grateful. As I was writing in my journal last night, I spoke of it a tried to go back to the post so that I might write down the link for which you found it, but found the posts were erased. Luckily, I remembered about the history link on the computer and found it that way. I had wondered if that link was able to find out where the schoolhouse was for which Mr. Fenn spoke of. I thought it might have been helpful.

    • (Second try.) You’re so kind to have found it for me. I was surprised to have seen the post gone when I returned last night to write down the information, but recalled about the history link on the computer. I had wondered if the link you provided might have helped locate the schoolhouse Mr. Fenn spoke of. I thought it might have been helpful.

      Have a good weekend.

      • pdenver,

        Hope you’re enjoying all those sweet hugs & kisses with your new GD♥♥

        I’ll add the Wyoming one-room Schoolhouse link that disappeared yesterday in a separate comment area.

        Greeley, CO information:



        Following is a great link regarding Greeley, CO – I don’t believe Greeley is actually located in the Rocky Mountains, however:

  25. I’ve always thought Home, Colorado, now called Kinikinik is interesting as it was a land patent granted to John R. Brown back in the 1870’s.

  26. imo I think that where the rio grande and rio chama meet is wwwh then you take it in the canyon to heavy loads then down (south) to home of brown all this not far but to far to walk —-frank

  27. from what I read -JDA – and Wildbirder it says the chest is not near the rio grande – and I did not say that the chest was there what I said was that there is where wwh is and imo its not a place for you to search

    • Frank u r right & i owe u an apology. Jyst because your WWWH halt starts there it doesn’t mean u will be in water. Sorry i am having a bad day & thanks for being nice

    • Please, PLEASE. if the Rio Grande is your wwwh – DO NOT
      “Take it in the canyon down”!!! One life, maybe more, has been lost to the Rio Grande. DO NOT let the next life be yours! JDA

      • JDA-if you don’t take it in the canyon how are you going to get to heavy loads and then down (south) to hob – from wwwh to hob is not far but to far to walk you hove no reason to be looking in the rio grande just knowing its wwwh where you go to the next clue imo

        • Frank;

          Read the poem – follow it on a map. Pick out a place on your map to “Put in”. THEN, put BotG if necessary.

          All I am saying is PLEASE DO NOT buy a flimsy raft from Walmart and become a statistic. PLEASE!!! JDA

        • Frank;

          Forrest has said over and over. “Do not go where a 79 or 80 year old man could not go.” A 79 or 80 year old man is NOT going to buy a one-man raft, and raft down the Rio Grande. period. Never – Never, so why do you think you would have to actually go “down the Rio?”

          Why do I say one-man raft? Because Forrest had no one with him. A two man or bigger raft could not be handled by only one man, so a one-man raft it is. Flimsy one-man rafts are DANGEROUS. period!.

          Use Common Sense is all I am saying. JDA

          • JDA – if you drive to rio grande and the chama and you take it in the canyon you are driving to heavy loads and waters high you have left the rio grande and rio chama behind and you are going toward heavy loads and waters high – there is no reason to put botg until you get to where he parked and hid the treasure – by then you have passed wwwh heavy loads and the blaze so there is no rafting no getting in the water – where he parked was at the beginning of in the wood where you have to walk north where the tc – things differ because my salve is in nm – so if you can drive why walk – its all an opinion

    • What I get from previous conversations is, the Rio Grande is not the place to search. The home of Brown still can be in NM, CO, or WY. I’ve cancelled out Montana, long ago, sure there is warm water, but not warm waters. IMO I was raised in Montana and know it very well, some hot springs, not in plural, but as one. There is no outstanding place in Montana of importance referring to the home of Brown, just a man that is in history with exploration and no permanent home. IMHO.

      So, that leaves 3 states left in the Rockies with the home of Brown, IMO.

      • Charlie M: IMO, if you choose to eliminate Montana from consideration, you will knock yourself out of the running. Your willingness to drop Montana because of your familiarity with it just goes to show that Forrest’s clues are such that even a local may not have an advantage in deciphering them.

      • CharlieM,
        You wrote:
        “There is no outstanding place in Montana of importance referring to the home of Brown, just a man that is in history with exploration and no permanent home.”

        Just a thought, but you may want to reconsider “no outstanding place in Montana of importance” to hoB not from a historic or generally-accepted context, but from Forrest’s perspective and his personal history (through his writings and comments). IMO, Forrest’s perspective is the only one that matters regarding any part of the poem or The Chase, and he has significant history in and with Montana that appears relevant. If the poem leads me to MT, I will go there; likewise with NM, CO, or WY, and I generally shy away from “conversations” or comments not made by Forrest.

        Just sayin’. Good luck in your Chase.

        • Joe,
          MT, is just my opinion, and I don’t find anything that is relevant to the poems directions. FF defined the search area of the Rockies, which includes 4 states, 3 of the states don’t contain the TC when all said and done. Besides, where F has been before he hid indulgence, to me is not relevant. What is relevant are the clues, which puts indulgence below the HoB.

          Maybe, I shouldn’t be so blunt, but that’s how I am. All is always IMO & IMHO. :o)

          • CharlieM,
            regardless of when fenn discovered the location… how can you honestly eliminate an entire state.
            The only possible way to eliminate any area N. of SF, in the RM’s is by knowing what wwwh refers to… And that location could be near a boundary or border line involving two states. Heck, hoB could be a boundary line itself.

            Opinion or not… the thought that you would know all of MT as well as you say, give extreme bias to clues or a complete solve not being in the state.
            Seriously, do you know wwwh, or hoB for certain?

            WhatIF all the clues are located within 500 to 1000′ of each other?
            That’s just shy of a 1/4 acre… you know every 1/4 acre in MT? Even if only on BML, NPS, OSFS, FWS, Tribal lands…

          • Charlie, in my opinion, HOB isnt only some guy in history with a mystery, or zillions of fish in ponds, creeks, streams, lakes and runoffs, it is a “legend” like Forrest. 🙂
            since he likes stick figures drawing, I draw a little house and put an “N” directly under it. just like on a legend on a map. of course it may be worth some salt, or maybe not since no one has Indulgence that we know of in 7 years.

          • Hey Charlie,
            Please don’t take offense; this is merely friendly debate. Opinions are all over the map (literally), and each is as good as any other. I was merely thinking out loud, and I didn’t mention it, but I believe this statement is correct (excludes MT):

            “So, that leaves 3 states left in the Rockies with the home of Brown, IMO.”

            I think about where I would like my bones to rest and go to dust, and what places are very special to me. I come up with only places with which I’m familiar, where I’ve not only spent a lot of time, but a lot of good times, meaningful times, special times. But that’s just me – I don’t for a moment believe any two people think exactly alike on all things, or even any single thing, at least not without a few ifs, ands, and/or buts.

            Just another opinion – I’m guessing everyone knows what those are like…


  28. IMO, there are at least 4 interpretations of HOB inherent to the poem. One which tells you where to begin and the other 3 are above/north of the spot and are comprised of or are a component of the first.

      • Boy, when you guys research, you jump in with both feet. Thank you for the link… the architecture & geology references were neat. As was the music (values link) … which affirms again the ubiquitous magic of three.

        Might be worth the effort to try a hero formula.

      • SL,
        Does this info fall in the no special knowledge category?

        The again… I’m not sure what special knowledge actually means. WhatIF fenn tells us what we need to [ sometimes I hate this word ] research?

        Are we to get informed about warm waters in regards to fishing manual?
        Is hoB a historical landmark and do we need to research that?
        Does everyone know every word meaning and usage of each word in the poem or can’t we look them up because of special knowledge limitations.

        I’ll give an example of how the poem could possibly give a piece of information we might need to research [ from the poem only ] But tarry scant… To possibly give a hint to how and solve a certain aspect of the poem [ Tarry Point {9 point circle} ]… as to “precisely” [exactly] how it, lead to a 10″ sq. chest.

        If this thought is remotely possible, that fenn is telling us how to solve anything… how does the poem tell us hoB means “dirt”[earth]? especially when dirt come in many hues of colors… iron rich soil, for example, can have a reddish hues… not to mention how many shade of “Brown” there can be… Does “below” mean not above ground? Does “put in” mean dig?

        I’m interested in the thought[s]… I just need the poem to explain it [this avenue of information/knowledge to obtain]… would you agree?

        Amy… can we get a bit more to why Brown equals earth? I mean if you’re talking about bible verses… ‘The meek will inherit the earth’… didn’t fenn say bible verses will not help?

        I’m all for a conversation folks… but maybe throw in a just a tad more info?

        So this leads me to a question?
        Does the poem not only give clues [ 9 of them ] that need to be decipher to what they reference… but could fenn also tell us, what to do with them[clue references]? Another words… is there ‘knowledge’ we might need to know/obtain and is being told of… or at the very least hinted to look for that information… back in the box.

        • Seeker

          I sent FF a letter and map of the area last week that I am reasonably 99% sure where indulgence is and if any thing else, so close it hurts, so to speak. Below is a quote of part of the letter.

          “The area I will be writing you about, I have already visited once this last August 2017. I went searching through wood of remains of old buildings, it was after that trip I found out the wood had nothing to do with man made structures, I was at that time doing the search merely based on the poem’s directions. I had not read The Thrill of the Chase and did not read some additional clues that you posted on your blog website associated to Old Santa Fe Trading Co. and had not visited a website that Dal had put up for discussions and more information about the man behind the treasures.”

          I did intentionally changed a couple of words in the above quote, only to not reveal what I would consider a hint.

          All of my solve fits perfectly with the poem in the correct order. I did use a little imagination and a little of knowledge. What I took from F is merely based on geography and descriptions.

          Of course I did not expect FF to reply to my letter, merely because I don’t have indulgence in my possession. My second BOTG will not be until 2018. I’m finding it very hard to contain myself and I simply had to share with F, while biting my tongue with all of you.

          Who knows I might have to retract what I said, but IMO that will be unlikely. It is in an area that I believe F said some have been within 200′ to 500′. Yea, I know I’m pretty full of myself.

          However, I will keep an open mind and search in other places on the remote chance I will find an other area that fits the poem perfectly. My suggestion is, stick with geography and stay natural. After all this is TTOTC.

          All above is IMHO and with a smile :o)

          • CharlieM

            I really enjoyed your post. I too have found a wonderful area which I wrote to Forrest about, but no response. I too can hardly contain myself right now, and keep going back to my solution over and over, and I want to go back there again even though this is a bad time to do that. I also have to wait until next year, (part of me wants to venture there now, next week). Anyway I get the excitement you are feeling. I have a similar level of euphoria over mine. I am also kinda scared that some real smart person may discover what I have discovered, and beat me to it.


        • The Flyer is an “architect” in more ways than one; a ‘sculptor’ as well.

          Camouflage by way of ‘wood’ in conjunction with ‘soil’ is a natural process that has really captured my attention. No doubt, IMO, he is “no lump on/in Log”, and is well versed on the process.

          Another ‘Capability’ Brown’, perhaps?


          • I got my ‘quickly’ twist from an old landscape dictionary. Capability probably knew it.
            As Kym alleged, knowlege (no d).

          • pdenver (♥),

            I kinda thought The Flyer had knowledge and love of gardening.

            When wood becomes ‘wet’ it can manifest into soil. If it were necessary to dig around, this would present another situation where gloves could certainly come in handy.

            A petrified tree stump, shouldn’t be dismissed either.

            On another note; might someone know what became of Lily Fenn’s twin sister, Willie Mae Simpson Smith? The date of her death is missing. It might not mean anything, yet I do recall mention of ‘twin’ in a TOTC hint.

          • Hello SL. I do believe he loves gardening. I think there is a post over at Jenny’s in regards to this. Some time ago, I believe someone posted something about Mr. Fenn and daffodils. I “think” it was about competitions, but please told hold me to it. As far as petrified trees, they would definitely stand up to time. Currently, I can only think of a couple places in Yellowstone.

      • OS2 – while reviewing site threads, I seem to remember you recently suggesting that wwwh, hoB, and blaze might represent FF dad, Sloane, and FF. If it was you, interesting idea…care to expand on this?

        • Matt, I’m not convinced the poem was created exclusively as a trail map to the TC. At one time, it was supposed to be for his suicide… to say what? Where his body was to be found? Or what his life amounted to, or what his spiritual hopes were? Was it to console Peggy who would be hysterical at his disappearance? Did it have references she alone would understand and be consoled by? What was its first purpose? Did it originate before the cancer diagnosis? It may have been a poem honoring the most important men or events in his life. What are the bones in the poem? Are the places metaphors for people? There are 3, www, hob, & blaze. Seems like everything in the book is underscored by threes… and 3 is such a small spelling switch from there.

          • Heres another thought I entertain… Remember Fenn’s comment about taking someone along as you hunt, but leave them in the car when you go to fetch the TC? …. Maybe he’s the the one who stays. Imagine you are in a ride-along with Mr. Fenn & the poem is conversation with him. For fun, use JDA’s stanza order.… First you go down four (thats go down four stanzas first … or maybe its go down highway 4 near Santa FE), You have a QUESTion. He knows the Answer, so he tires off the highway onto a weak road. Etc. Etc.
            Have fun with that interpretation.

        • OS2 ~ I’m not convinced the poem was created exclusively as a trail map to the TC.

          I doubt so, also. I mean, why did ‘meager’ 24 lines take 15 yrs? Meanwhile, I find some of his ATF very interesting, like “I was going to make it work no matter what.” On the surface, most probably chalk this up to legal issues of hidey on Gov’t land, but other ATF seem to simply blow off public land use issues.

          • hi matt brown i dont think the poem itself took 15 yrs to write. i think he write the poem believing he was gone to die sooner than later. then over the next 15 yrs he changed it some or tweaked it until he had the final poem. its a very poem that we have complicated somewhat it imho. for me the simplest solution we hope will work.

          • Matt, I should probably spend my Chase time like most Chasers, scouring Google Earth, but I can’t settle my computer onto my lap in my armchair, so I scour the book instead. I look for aberrations, double meanings, etc. Its my Voyage of Discovery. Recently I played around again on page 13 with the geometry words in the text… coincidence, line, complimentary, straight, true, and some conversational equivalents like ‘down at the bottom’. This time the name of an Emperor begged for attention. My first association was Waterloo…. Water-loo… a toilet? A waters-halt place? Maybe something else… I laughed again when I saw it phonetically altered but poignantly accurate for a math formula that could be very relevant to the Chase. It probably wasn’t Fenn’s intention, but it works. … geometry/ area/ geography. I fudged the difference between complement and compliment & I got help from a Hero who’s also the sort that gets into the fling things as well, particularly water.

            IMO, That keyword thing is on page 12 and sets the ground for the above.

          • W.R. ~ ‘…why so few see this is perplexing.’

            “Some searchers overrate ***the complexity of the search***. Knowing about…” [ other crap ] [out of the box thinking ].
            “…If it was easy, anyone could do it.”
            “An architect wrote the poem…”
            “every word was deliberate…”

            Searchers deciphered, indicated, figured the first couple of clues… told fenn exactly where they been, but they didn’t know they had the correct clues solved and didn’t know they walk by all the other clues and the chest [ in many cases ].

            Gee W.R. Why the heck would anyone think its perplexing-?- or complex. Ya know.. a poem designed with centuries down the road in the mind of the author…
            “I’m not flippant about this…I’m looking a hundred years down the road, maybe a thousand years down the road. People don’t understand that.”

            I need a break!
            Instead of actually having conversation about the poem… All ya dang knowitalls just yack about how simple this all is… Yet, still sit behind a computer with excuses why they can go and get a million plus of gold and trinkets.

            I guess fenn was correct in saying read the blogs for entertainment… Lately, it’s not even entertaining.

          • Hi Seeker
            We are guilty I know but our finances are like a dam with many leaks & DADBURN IT!!! we are running out of fingers and i was never good at playing the game twister.
            my weight is down to 288 from 315-320 on good days. we are hoping if we wait till next season i will be down to 245. i also have a small business to run and depending on the events of the next few weeks we might go on our search. 610 miles is a long drive drive, then a place to stay (i dont sleep in cars the way i used too LOL) oh dont forget my four little doggies and two cats that someone will have to watch while we are gone. (if someone watches the cats they might as well take care of mutts. we lost nearly a $1,000 last year in aug when hubby had heart surgery. my son and i with grandkids tried to come but a trip to MT Capulin gave Joshua & me bronchitis killing our trip. it’s not the search that kills us it’s the cost. right now our budget in Oct will be with gas etc. $650.00. so please dont be too hard on us. lol

          • Seekers
            The only thing more perplexing is your response. Notice how you delved deep into some off topic nonsense to respond to me vs the context.
            People have put forth Fenn worked on this for 15 years.
            No, common sense based on Fenn timeline, if you haven’t created one then you need to, shows he wrote the poem around 88 or 89 in time for death. He had it done before his remission then shelved it when death was postponed. Then rewrote parts of it as needed.
            He also put forth his book the year after his FBI incident, coincidence? doubtful, and he did so in case they tried to come back and he didn’t get it out of it.
            So what’s so hard to understand on motivations?
            Nothing of this is poem context as you go on about, just seeking an understanding of the man and why.

          • hi Seeker i am sorry i didnt mean to offend you or anyone. the poem is complex and can send people off int all kinds of rabbit holes. i was trying to remind folks that Mr Fenn said to keep it simple and for us simple worked. it took me over 4 yrs and a lot of research. then our light bulb came but they say bulbs burn brightest before they burn up. lol

          • WR

            I again make my offer: Since you think it is so flipping simple, present me with your “Simple Solve” and I will fund your trip to your site – I will probably tag along just for kicks – (but not a prerequisite). If you find it, I won’t even ask for my “Up front” money. On the other hand IF it is NOT there, you owe us all an apology for insinuating that we (who have worked on this solve for a year or more) are all stupid idiots. What have you got to lose? A little egg on your face? Who knows, it might help the complexion – JDA

          • JDA
            You still have a hat to eat.
            I understand you want to be the resident bully/know-it-all, but don’t, perhaps you haven’t learned in all you ages not to.
            But you seem to suffer from the same issue as Seeker, not bothering to gain an understanding of what is being said.
            Now quote me where I said anything related to your rant. Or apologize.

          • W.R.

            wildberder posted the following:

            wildbirder on September 27, 2017 at 11:18 am said:

            hi matt brown i dont think the poem itself took 15 yrs to write. i think he write the poem believing he was gone to die sooner than later. then over the next 15 yrs he changed it some or tweaked it until he had the final poem. its a very poem that we have complicated somewhat it imho. for me the simplest solution we hope will work.
            You then replied:

            W.R. on September 27, 2017 at 11:38 am said:

            “Exactly, why so few see this is perplexing.”

            Wild birder basically said – its a very (Simple) poem that we have complicated isomewhat – Yes I have modified it a bit to make wildbirder’s statement a bit clearer.
            Your response:” Exactly, why so few see this is perplexing”. says that you agree, the poem is simplistic. I read it that way, as did Seeker, as his response indicated. I read it is an insult to those of us that have spent a heck of a lot of time working on. It may not have been intended as such, but that is how I read it.

            Take me up on my offer – prove how stupid a “Know it all” I am. Be a hero!

          • JDA if I read your note right I insulted you. I am very sorry because i had no intention to insulting anyone. i said I couldnt solve the poem myself until i went with very simple ideas. For us it works and it what Mr Fenn said Keep it simple. i personally have been working on my solve for over 5 yrs. there was awhile there where i put about 10 to 14 hrs day on the poem for some time recovering from injury. as soon as we can save our funds we will return to the search. again no insult inteded

          • JDA
            So thats a no, you vannot show where I said anything related to you ignorant statement.
            You discounted the entirety of her statement and instead focused on the conclusions. Seems you do that too with this as well.
            Explains everything about you.
            Let’s remove these complicated words so you can keep up.
            “i dont think the poem itself took 15 yrs to write.”
            Anything poem related here? No you say, amazing.
            ” i think he write the poem believing he was gone to die sooner than later. ”
            How about here sweaty? Still a no from you, interesting.
            “then over the next 15 yrs he changed it some or tweaked it until he had the final poem.”
            Are we to the content of the poem yet chump, I forgot?
            ” its a very poem that we have complicated somewhat it imho.”
            Is this it? No, you say… well maybe you can save face with the last line.
            ” for me the simplest solution we hope will work.”
            Oh, dang JDA not a single thing related to the simplicity of the poem as written.

            JDA throw your childish temper tantrum elsewhere.

          • wildbirder – my challenge to W.R. is because in my estimation (and mine alone) I see him as a smart asp. Always spouting his mouth off, about things that he appears (to me) to know nothing about. I find most of his posts insulting.

            He, on the other hand, sees me as a “Know it all”. I also resent that comment. I have tried very hard to be objective in my posts – sure, sometimes I fail, I am only human.

            You do NOT come across the way W.R. does. You share a view about the poem being simple, but the manner in which you presented your idea, I did not find offensive – I did find his reply offensive.

            Sorry I can not help you – JDA

          • thank you sir i dont see you as a know it all but just a conveyer ideas like all of us. as for my comment it was a joke like PICK ME! PICK ME!
            again I think the poem was impossible until we started over and keep it very simple. as the pieces fell into place we just shook our heads. but until i get bog again its just talking too.

          • No. Wildbirder – YOU did not insult me at all. It was W.R.’s reply that I took offense to – coupled with past experiences.

            You stated your idea – that is what this blog is for – YEA for you.

            I MAY be oversensitive to W.R’s posts – If so, I will take the blame. I dislike the accusation of being called a “Know it all” (said several times). This is a personal attack! When attacked, I fight back. This MAY be a fault, if so, I will take ownership of that also. JDA

          • W.R.

            How wonderful that you can hold a conversation with me, and I do not even have to utter a word. You simply insert what you think I might say.

            It would appear that you are the one throwing a tantrum, not I.

            Good night, and sweet dreams – JDA

          • JDA
            You have lots of issues you need to work out.
            I know what you’ll say, because know-it-alls are predictable, only your solution is the right one and all others ideas is an affront to your investment into nothing. I encourage you to grow up and don’t respond to me ever.
            Right now you owe me a hat to be eaten, an apology, and if you persist you’ll be dinning on my undies soon.

          • My My W.R.

            So now you can dictate to whom I respond? Not likely. You can also predict who and what I will respond – Such clairvoyance – doesn’t it clutter your little mind having all of my grandiose thoughts spinning around in that hollow space?

            Delusions of grandeur from one gifted with so little. As I said sweetie – Good night, and have sweet dreams. JDA

          • Wildbirder, we have cats, whom we love so much, & we ask our local vets’ office if their vet techs want to catsit for us. We pay $15/day, and they stay over. They’re young, and happy to have a place of their own to play house in. 🙂

          • thank you Lady V our vet can’t due to space and the one would freak. I do have a friend who will and she can do laundry while there or enjoy TV. she not much of a dog person lol the dogs would be ok on trip but i worry about the hotel. thank God at our apt our front opens onto an enclosed patio because we have an affenpinscher who thinks he is a marathon runner. i worry we might lose him. in 7 months he has ran 3 times so its an issue. if money doesn’t improve it will be a mute point this year lol

          • Hello pdenver. Thank you for the link. I tried to see if I could find more information, but I wasn’t successful. It would be nice to know more about Mr. Fenn’s aunt.

            Also, I tried posting above, but it didn’t show. I’m hoping it’ll be found.

    • So if Earth is home of Brown who would Brown be??I’m sure your correct I just need clarification, I’m a little slow like that!

        • That still not below the ground. I think a canyon is important & u r down in a canyon because of the wall. But u can’t put in below the earth. It doesn’t make sense. I could be very wrong. I just not sure it works

          • WILDBIRDER
            Well, you have 2 means in this case (below the ground) or you are above a canyon and below it the ground, or we can use below the ground a well of water or basin geography, it can be type that well as it has in the park the alamos of ancient civilization or a pond below the ground, good exists several thought in this case, plus I leave a hint of some that your ff said that together and a researched old public in another conversation here in the DAL (tree bristlecone) there is 3 kind of this rocky tree, basin and fox, whose means of being date are used carbon c-14 or in the scientific ligua radiocarbon c-14, exists 2 type of this tree in 2 states Colorado / New Mexico being rocky and basin.
            For full see some interesting point that I published there in another comment of pages of the SCRAPBOOKS OF YOUR FF.
            So the egg or chicken was born first (lol)
            see the treasures of your ff and you will discover
            good hunting and be happy

          • wildbirder imo if you but in below the home of brown means that the chest is north of home of brown – put in to me means that he dug a hole and buried some kind of container where he put in the treasure chest

          • thank you frank for your reply but i dont think its buried. if we thought it was buried we wouldnt have joined the search. the clues are to vague for buried but doable sitting on ground.

        • dodo so its in a basement but wouldnt a basement be a man made place? this chase gets weird some days. lol

          • wildbirder- of course a basement is a man made place. what does that have to do with the fact that something can be underground, but not buried, yet hidden?

    • Scrapbook 147 ART AND EMOTION
      Scrapbook 27 PASSAROS
      Scrapbook 144 THE BOSS BOTH ON A BLACK PONY
      Scrapbook 127 SACRED PAGES
      Scrapbook 130 FF TIRED
      Scrapbook 177 THE OTHER SIDE OF ERIC
      Scrapbook 171 ARCHIOLOGY FF BINO
      Scrapbook 172 (trim) SINO DE ERIC SLOANE
      Scrapbook 138 FF RESCUE
      Scrapbook 173 PRINCE OF COMMANDERS
      Scrapbook 122 FF BRONZE
      Scrapbook 163 and 167 FF INTERVIEW DOCUMENTARY
      Scrapbook 179 FF BOOK
      Scrapbook 116 GREEK SYMBOL (NUDE)
      Well I hope this can help some researcher understand my point of view, and break a joke.
      Look at the bau and their treasures and they will understand, keep the radar and radio operators alert

  29. Did ff ever try to raise rainbows in his pond?

    If anyone is interested in Brown Algae … after a morning’s reading, heres my results…. Most of it is in marine waters (kelp, etc.) but a few species are freshwater & 95% of that info is about dirty fish tanks. One freshwater specie is found in an area relevant to the CHASE, The Green River area. Alginic acid extracted from Brown Algae is used in aquaculture to fortify the immune systems of juvenile rainbows (also used in lithium ion batteries.) I’m guessing that some evidence of marine brown algae may be found in fossils dating back to the Rocky oceans.

    Time for coffee and Ken Burns & Vietnam. Good Luck.

    • interesting tidbits OS2. Ken Burns is awesome…I was just up by his home a day ago…nice area. Enjoy the new documentary….

  30. Frank said: “ imo if you but in below the home of brown means that the chest is north of home of brown – put in to me means that he dug a hole and buried some kind of container where he put in the treasure chest”

    How can you possibly determine from the poem that the chest is north of Home of Brown? I don’t get the reasoning at all.

    • Tom B
      have a coffee in the house, that’s what I found translating brown in Greek in my language, but in your language in English also will try and try to be happy.
      I think porfice your ff takes a lot of coffee in your stories

    • Tom B



      2- is heavy loads
      3- blaze
      4- in the wood
      5- chest
      to me everything is below hob (north)

  31. Not sure if this has been brought up before regarding HOB, so here goes.
    Many tribes associated colors with mountains and/or directions. For example, the Navajo associated the color white with mountains in the East, blue (turquoise) with those in the South, yellow with those in the West, and black with those to the North.

    Put in below the home of Brown may point to a specific mountain and/or a specific direction if one were to combine some of those colors to give you brown. Where I am falling short on this interpretation is that red is needed to do such with no reference (yet) as to where red falls into the tribal color association. If that were known, and one were to combine, say yellow and blue, then the red to make the color brown, it might point you in a Southwest direction (yellow = west / blue = South / with the missing red falling between the two). Just some food for thought.

    • Update: Quick search indicates red has been associated with the sunset. Using the method above might give one a line on their map if associated with the yellow/blue directions drawn to the sunset (the three colors combined to make Brown), perhaps along their canyon down…

      Again, just some random food for thought.

      • Snooping around the internet I came across the medicine wheel which has the colors red, yellow, white, and black.

        Interesting that red represents North as well as the search for truth (“If you’ve been wise and found the blaze”)…

        • Last post on this (unless there is discussion) – more than one medicine wheel and most associate the white color with north.

          • Simplified, Hopi and Zuni colors associated with directions are
            NorthWest Yellow
            NorthEast White
            SouthEast Red
            SouthWest Blue

            Those are solstitial* direction associations; some commentators instead give cardinal direction (North yellow, East white, South red, and West blue) color associations.

            [*Solstitial directions – summer solstice sun rises in the Northeast, sets in the Northwest; winter solstice sun rises in the Southeast, sets in the Southwest.]

            Usually Up is associated with all colors, and Down (Below) is associated with Black.

            Keresan and Rio Grande pueblos use the same colors, but the directions associated with each color are not always the same.

            [cardinal directions – Though they didn’t have compasses or a pole star, there’s ample evidence that ancestral puebloans were able to determine North.]


          • LOL—better call the “medicine man”. Perhaps your rainbow comment ties in to this line of thinking too…

  32. i believe that home of brown is origin of brown trout”4th definition of home in webster’s,it’s even about salmonids “. browns need oxygen and gravel to spawn. above a man made reservoir sand and mud silt in a river. this gives you a separation of above where browns can spawn and below where they can not. also the cover photo of too far to walk is habitat where brown’s would spawn. also “i think” where warm waters halt is the continental divide”look at the hole pitcher”. the map of the search area is a 1997 blown up and cropped map of the continental divide trail”a line to start at pick your canyon with lake run brown trout”. from here i’m just guessing.riches new and old = old mexico and new mexico or the old santa fe trail .no place for the meek. well i thought it meant contested land owned by a religious organization. there’ll be no paddle up your creek or ‘UP’ a creek without a paddle.stay on the river. look at the high water for a heavy load.if you’ve been wise and have not gone up a creek without a paddle.i’m pretty sure there is a shadow involved with the blaze. if this mite help you don’t forget the poor fox.

  33. “Put in” below the home of Brown bothers me… I seriously doubt “put in” is telling you to take a raft, kayak or any other means of water transportation.

    There is no way that an 80 year old Fenn went rafting twice in one afternoon with 40+ pounds of loot (20+ pounds per trip.)

    • Hi Imperfekt;

      Welcome to the chase. Since I have never seen you post, I am assuming you are new. Also, your post seems to have a couple of problems. Please let me help you if I can.

      1) Forrest said that he drove his “sedan” to where he parked it, and then took two trips to secret Indulgence. This occurs a LONG ways deeper in the poem than the “put in” line.
      2) Therefore, it is possible that Forrest drove from wwwh, down the canyon, to a place below hoB. He could probably see the “Put in” point, maybe drove to it, and then either parked, or hiked past the “no meek place” etc.

      I suggest that you do all of the reading, and “Catch-up” that you can before you start putting your solve together. Nost important, HAVE FUN and TRY to STAY SAFE – STAY out of rafts PERIOD! – JDA

      • JDA,
        If I read your post not knowing or have very little knowledge of the chase… well, I’d be more screwed up then I am now.
        Yep, fenn drove to the location… there has never been mentioned [by fenn] he used his vehicle in-part of him following the clues.
        There has never been mentioned by fenn of doing the hiding [ as you said ] “…occurs a LONG ways deeper in the poem…”
        Many of fenn’s comments describe two trips “from” his vehicle [ using the term ‘walk’ in one afternoon], and one comment stating, he followed the clues to hide the chest… Never did fenn mention where he “possibly” drove from anywhere to any where within the actions of hiding the chest… Heck we don’t even know if he drove from his home in NM or some coffee shop in MT on a fishing trip or any other plausible scenarios to the area he desired to hide the chest.

        Oh! right, you forgot to explain that all of your posting is of your opinion.

        Don’t listen to me either… I have no clue of anything. Best you find as many of fenn’s statements as you can, and judge for yourself…

        • Seeker;

          You are correct, I forget to say “IMO” – Sorry – You caught me.

          True Seeker, Forrest never has said whether he walked, hiked, snow-shoed, rode a bike or rode a horse from wwwh to the place he “parked his sedan” and walked to the place he secreted Indulgence. All we know is that he drove to the place he parked. We don’t even know this – he could have pushed his sedan to the place he parked it 🙂 I am just “Guessing” that he drove part of the way. If he did hike or walk most of the way, why use a Sedan for a short distance to where he parked it? Did he drive to wwwh, park, hike the rest – hike back to his sedan, then drive the last leg?
          Not logical to me Seeker.

          My reference to a LONG way deeper in the poem had nothing to do with distance, only the fact that many believe that the place he began to hike was closer to the “End/no paddle up your creek place in the poem – found in later stanza’s than the “put in” stanza. JDA

        • Thanks seeker, yes some of it gets confusing… but I’ve been keeping the mindset of “what does the poem say” and “what has Fenn said” and “what could (insert word from the poem) mean when I think about it”

        • JDA,
          I’m not understanding your question ~ ** If he did hike or walk most of the way, why use a Sedan for a short distance to where he parked it?**
          Where are you getting this information he drove ‘a short distance’ to anywhere?

          You seem to imply fenn needs a vehicle to go from one clue to another [doesn’t matter which clues are which].
          From the ATF comments, fenn has said he walked “from” his car… So, the use of the vehicle was to; get him from wherever he was [ home, fishing trip, visiting friends… ] to the area, where he then, followed the clues in the poem to the hid.

          The problem I see is, you can’t separate fenn’s comment about parking his car, from the clues in the poem… You want it to be that he needed the vehicle to travel clues. But there’s nothing to fenn’s comment… [especially the comment he “followed the clues IN the poem” ] …that indicates driving out clues.
          He “followed” the clue to the hidey space, and had to make two trips “from his” car to the hidey space… where do you see drive in those ATF comments?

          Now… if you want to talk about interpretations of what clues can refer to… that’s another story, and I’m willing to do that as well. But you can’t take your interpretation that ‘too far to walk’ only means a vehicle must have been use, and say “fenn” used it to travel “some” clues.
          Even if fenn used a vehicle in the scenario of driving pass clues because of a one way in and out…
          But there’s a problem… That means fenn only “followed” the clues once, right? There would be no need to go back to any clue for the second trip.

          So ask yourself this [ before you say this is how he did it ] Why tell us we need to make/walk two trips in several hours or don’t go? Or why we would need to go all the way back to the first clues [ some miles and miles away ] when we just driven by the clues… If its a “one way in and out” [driving]… how the heck can ya screw that up?

          I’ll tell ya this [ for myself ] I would need a lot more than just a hunch from one line in the poem to get me out there thinking I can or need to drive clues. Not when fenn has repeated he walk twice,he followed the clues, searchers walked by the remaining clues from the first two clue, and searcher figured out the those couple of clues and, again, walked by the chest…

          The only possible scenario that would logical be sound, [other than physically hiking clues] IF all we need to do is; map out the entire poem and go straight to the hidey spot, by ‘ following ‘ [as instruction and not so much direction] the clues on a map. That X marks the spot idea.

          All of this post is opinions… but logic and common sense tells me fenn walked “all” the clues [ no matter how big or small an area we think it is ] and so did the first two clue folks.

          • Well Seeker;

            I guess that we will just have to agree to disagree on this one. Logic is a funny thing. It makes sense to some, but not to other’s.

            Logic tells me that the distance between wwwh and hoB is about 10 miles – A distance that Forrest now says is “too far to walk. Maybe when Forrest was 79 or 80 he could walk it, but he now says that it is too far to walk.

            If you add is “some” distance between hoB, the “meek place”, on up to the “END” place and maybe even up to the start of the “No paddle up your creek” – even if that distance is as short as 1 to 2 miles, and then add “some” distance between “No paddle up your creek” to the blaze and the TC – let’s say 1/2 mile – we are still looking at a minimum of 10+ 1 + 1/2 or 11.5 miles X 4 = 46 miles in an afternoon.

            Anything less than 10 miles for “Not far, but too far to walk” does not make sense to me. If it was half that – 5 miles, why would he say – Not far but too far to walk? Most Old men, including myself, CAN walk 5 miles. It MAY take me a while, but I CAN walk five miles – not 4 times in an afternoon though.

            With grade, if I knew I HAD to walk a distance 4 times in an afternoon, “I” am probably down to just 1 mile – but that is just me with a bad heart.

            So, for me, and me alone, driving part of the route seems to be a must, but for you, you could probably walk the entire route four times – so we can agree to disagree.

            Have a great day guy. Nice chattin’ with you – we just disagree on this point. You may well be correct. JDA

          • JDA- First, thank you for being such a contributor to this and expressing your thoughts. If I question something, I mean it in the most respectful way. You compare 5 miles vs. 10 miles with NFBTFTW and say 5 miles isn’t too far. I know since I’m from Florida, my comment may be more specific to me, but I know from BOTG, 5 miles of walking elevation in the mountains is much more difficult than walking in flat Florida. My Dad and I tried to walk about 4 miles on a trail that was both up and down mountain passes and it took all day and at times wasn’t sure my Dad was going to make it. So I think 5 miles in mountain terrain would still be too far to walk, in my opinion. I’m not in the best shape, but for even a 79-80 year old in good shape, I still think 5 mountainous miles is too far to walk. My one theory is the not far but too far to walk had to do with steepness of going down and you needed another form of transporting yourself down besides walking.

          • JDA,
            If true… then TTOTC and the Poem were useless from the start. That is one big oversight to miss after 20 plus years of planning, Don’tcha think?

          • No Seeker, I don’t think like you do.- If true… then TTOTC and the Poem were useless from the start. That is one big oversight to miss after 20 plus years of planning, Don’tcha think?

            Seeker, You are the one stuck on believing that the whole poem needs to be walked, despite the fact that “It just will not work! ” Distances are just too great. – using the NF,BTFTW as anything reasonable theory.

            I tried to explain the logic behind the fact that using some form of transportation appears to be a must, in order to make the time schedules work, but you choose not to look at that logic. That is your choice. As I said, you COULD be right, but logic tells me otherwise.

            If you ever do put boots on the ground, maybe you will see the truth in my logic. Am not sure if you are in Tennessee, or NY. Either way – take a test run of your theory, and try to make it work in an afternoon – even a L O N G afternoon of 8 hours. I just do not think you can make it work. Let me know how the test goes. JDA

          • Reading these posts reminded me of my dear brother Rick (younger brother). When he was 15 or 16 years old he bought a green 1966 Rambler.
            It is amazing the places he would drive that thing! He would drive up to the streams in the Sierra Nevada all by himself, and he would get that Rambler into places you’d think only a 4 wheel drive could go. He was an amazing person.
            He was my younger brother, but he felt like an older brother to me. He taught me how to fly fish, and we once took a two week trip to Yellowstone and the Gallatin River. I will never forget it, and I will never forget him either. Unfortunately he took his own life back in 2004.
            But I mention him because of that Rambler. Never underestimate just how far one can go in an old sedan— especially if they are very brave like my brother was. I sure miss that guy.

          • “A polite-like email from Kristie, who admits to being a desk person, prompts me to say that if you are walking long distances in search of the treasure, you’re walking too far. f”

            I take this comment as to say, no need to walk too far while looking… the treasure and clues are closer than many think.

          • Seeker, my first solve included many miles between clues, but after reviewing all his comments and 3 BOTG trips to test my solve, I’ve come to believe that the lues from HOB to the chest are very condensed to a small area, probably within 500 feet. Sounds like you see it in the same way, maybe even before HOB clue.

          • We agree start WWWH not far but to far to walk short drive to Canyon put in below HOB. from there short walk to TC. this is our solve and thank you for more confirmation we just might be right until we are proven WRONG lol
            (by this we mean we could be very WRONG until proven right with BOG)

          • Seeker: on the walking long distances question, we totally agree. But I’m still driving that canyon, else I would be walking long distances.

          • Thanks for sharing the story of your brother, Sparrow. It reminds me of my days living out in California and taking my old hand-me-down Ford Escort to many a-sketchy trailhead in the Sierras.

            Your point is well made: don’t underestimate where a sedan is able to get to. But the other side of that is don’t OVERestimate where a sedan can get to!

            Lake Como Road in Colorado comes to mind as a good example: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QBiPKeVOYFw

          • Zap,
            I don’t really know what “not far but too far to walk means”… But we only differ to what it might mean by perception.
            You think it is a distance that separates the clues… I think it actually bring the clues closer together.
            You might think too far to walk means another mode of movement to cover an large area… I think the line is telling us not to travel that/any distance, but there’s a reason to know about it. This might be why searchers kept going and walked by everything… like Goofy stated, they didn’t see what was in front of them because a prenotion of what is to come next, without truly experiencing what is around them.

            Can the clue be solved at home? Yes, in theory, but not in practice…

            It’s great to think and analyze [ been there done that ] but it seems to me we need to be “at” that first clue to pull it all together, because we need to ‘observe’ this location, and plan what our next steps should be.

            That thought was not an easy consideration, because of the “certainty beforehand comment” But logically, if the first clue is so important that fenn says it needs to be nailed down… just deciphering it’s location doesn’t seem to work by knowing where it is beforehand… so something is missing, right? That something imo, involves what we see and how we see it… to make the correct correlation/contiguous relationship with all the clues.

            Can we decipher clues and match them to a map… sure, But is that all that is needed to understand how to complete the recovery of the chest?

            What is it we need to “plan” for? What is it we need to “obverse”? And why does “imagination” play such a role? I doubt very much we’re going to find those answer in the book or maps or even in the poem… However, I do think that we can figure out that “important possibility” prior, and almost think its a must to do so. I just haven’t a clue to what that possibility is…

      • Thank you for the advice. I will definitely be staying out of water. I have no intentions of being the next missing person who went somewhere dangerous that you can’t “take your kids” or that an 80 year man couldn’t go. I have been reading and watching Fenn interviews regularly for a few months, but yes, fairly new to the chase. Thanks.

    • My interpretation is you can “put in” on a trail. I believe this is the point he got out of his car.

      • I saw there’s a put in on 191 just below Brown Canyon where he may have parked and walked up (not paddled up) to railroad gulch (heavy loads). I hear multiple people have already searched here, but ff also said people have been within 200-500 feet of it, so maybe they’re overlooking something? Either way, it’s where I want to go for my first BOTG.

        • That 191 put-in would be the closest bridge to get to the east side of the Arkansas, imperfect. Still a two-three mile hike up the railroad track from the bridge up to where Railroad Gulch drains into the Arkansas from the east.

          Used to be track up the gulch too, servicing a couple mines up there (track was washed out I-don’t-know-when). Hecla campground is just upstream from Railroad Gulch, but on the west side of the Arkansas with no bridge.

          Good luck, and enjoy!


    • A fisherman can “put in” water when going fly fishing by walking and wading in. No need for a boat or raft.

  34. You can also “put in” on an airport, which is why he may have used that term, but it doesn’t make sense if he was driving his sedan. He did not have his pilot’s license when he hid the Chest.

    • Patrick;

      Let’s say that a road parallels a river, that flows “down” a canyon. Why couldn’t Forrest have started at wwwh, drove down the road that parallels the “water course” to a “Put in”
      point. – Drove to that point (or nearby) – then either hiked or drove some more (probably on a different road now)? Sure
      makes sense to me. JDA

      • JDA, I can’t find the quote on-hand, but if you remember from a Q&A Forrest was asked if he followed the clues in the poem himself when he hid the chest. Forrest replied affirmatively.

        The question I have is: If traveling from WWWH to HOB is “too far to walk”, then couldn’t Forrest have also just parked at HOB without necessarily travelling past WWWH or the canyon down, and still be telling the truth when he answered that question? I tend to think so, but I think as you described above is an equally valid possibility.

        • I believe Forrest said he followed the clues. He did not answer with a yes or no to the question asked. So . . . He could have followed some clues, not all the clues, and still not be lying. Just a thought.

          • Patrick,
            Fenn said he followed the clues… tells us we need to, and there is no other way he knows of, or any shortcuts.

            To think fenn is saying he only followed some clues doesn’t fit fenn’s comments. What it does is to make/force a person’s possible wrong solve look plausible.

            However, If we remove [ for lack of a better term ] Tracking the clues with botg, and only use the thought that we can located the clues on a “map” by following the clue references on a map… then it’s plausible that all we need to do is travel/hike/hop skip and jump to the last correct clue.

            LOL… but I could argue against that thought as well.

          • I agree in order for searchers to find the clues you must follow the clues from the beginning. However, it doesn’t mean Forrest had to as he knew where he was going. I always believed he travelled the route he described in his poem when he was a younger man. But I question whether he followed all the clues when he hid the chest. I believe he could have driven to an area where heavy loads and water high may be located and hid it from there. I believe IMHO that his walk with the chest was probably within 500 ft of where he parked. But at an earlier time in his life, he walked most of the poem after Canyon Down. I am not suggesting starting in the middle of the poem. I am just pointing out he didn’t say he followed “all” the clues when he hid the chest. Of course, this is all in my humble opinion.

          • “To answer some questions and save others from being asked, I did follow the clues in the poem when I hid the treasure chest,…”

            “followed the clues” “when I hid the chest”

            I can’t really say what happened because I wasn’t there… But to think “followed the clues” to mean only some clues, is the same as saying; walking off a cliff with only one foot doesn’t mean we walked, he could have hopped.

          • I think the important point is not everything is as it seems. Otherwise, it would have been found by now. His statements are carefully crafted like his poem. All options should be considered to get to the right solve.

          • I agree we should look into options Patrick. But how far do we take the twisting and bending just to have our solves work for us?
            If “clues in the poem” turns out to be only some clues fenn followed, Then basically, we can’t trust anything the man says… so why do we bother asking for more bones?

            As i said before… there’s only one way that fenn did actually “follow” the clues in the poem [ note; follow in this explanation doesn’t mean physical tracking ] He would have had to follow the design of the poem with a map to a single spot.
            [ note; design to mean, deciphered clues matched to a map ]

            So what we have here is a difference usage of the word “follow”
            The physical vs. the understanding.
            LOL I can’t argue either to be right or wrong because either and/or both could be correct… But he would still have needed to follow ‘all’ the clues.

          • Patrick, Here is the quote – It might help clear up things:
            I have a question for Mr. Fenn:
            When you hid your treasures, did you take the same path that is described in the poem, or were you able to skip some of the steps because of your familiarity with the area?
            Thank you Curtis
            The clues should be followed in order Curtis. There is no other way to my knowlege.f Forrest doesn’t “exactly” answer the question but implies that there is only one way – or”There is no other way to my knowlege.” f This says to me that Forrest HAD to follow the clues as they are laid out in the poem – one way in, one way out – but that is just how I see it. JDA

          • I don’t believe so JDA. You see FF implied that we would have to follow the clues to find the TC. He didn’t say the he had to.

          • JDA- Thank you for the exact quote. Again, like you said, he never answered the question. Of course searchers should follow all the clues, and shouldn’t skip any. If he said, “Yes, …” then answered as he did, there would be no question about it. But Fenn doesn’t necessarily like to be black and white. I think he dodged the question, IMHO.

          • This is difficult to read on mobile, it squished the comments, lol. Anyway, I want to give my opinion on two points. 1. ff said he doesn’t know any other way for someone other than to follow eacheck step without shortcut. HE may have taken a shortcut cause he knows where the final resting place is, but anyone else can’t take a shortcut because they don’t. Which leads me to “too far to walk”. I feel like yes, there is driving from wwwh to HoB and he only says there’s no shortcuts because you need to find the only HoB in a canyon below wwwh… you may be able to skip your journey to HoB but not until you’ve completed (solved) the prior clues?

      • Wow JDA,
        How does that make sense… being serious, not a put down. For that scenario to happen, and fenn saying he followed the clues… tells us there’s no short cuts… says there’s only one way he knows of, and all the other comments about following the clues in the poem… Why would fenn [ who seemingly knows this area very well, because he knew where he wanted to hide the chest from the get go ] would have to drive from the first clue to any other clue[s] if all “he” needed to do was go to the clue that brought him closest to the location of the chest?

        Not to mention that IF there are other road in the area… one or more could have been a shorter drive to that closest clue, before he had to hike.

        The only reasonable explanation for your scenario would be a one way in and out road only, forcing fenn to drive from clue one to any other clues.
        Then again, we have fenn telling us; searchers told him where they have been and figured the first couple of clue and they ‘walked’ pass the remaining clues / treasure. I wonder why they didn’t drive?

        It may make sense to you… but there is no foundation to support it from any ATF comments I have read.

        • Seeker,
          You argue that revisit means reconsider yet you are immovable on walk being an expression.
          Very odd.

          • W.R.
            “It’s not a matter of trying, it’s a matter of thinking… Siure, I mean people [ obviously searchers ] figured the first couple of clues and unfortunately walked passed the treasure chest”

            I could put up many other comment were fenn stated searcher walked by the remaining clues and so on.
            But I’m open for a logical discussion… explain how “walk” in dozens of comments [over the past 4 years of comments] regarding the first two clues and the remaining clues and the chest is something other than walking/hiking?

          • Seeker aren’t you the one who is looking to draw an X on a map by drawing lines from point to point?

            If not then this is applicable, but if so then there is no walking except to the X. So how does one walk past clues when the only thing to walk to is the last point?

          • Seeker, saw your comment to JDA, how Fenn parked then followed the clues to the spot.

            So you have Fenn walking at wwwh to the spot?

            If so, then there is bigger issues than expressions going on imo.

            So to delve into how ppl walked past the rest in this context requires a discussion of how you define too fae to walk.

          • W.R.
            There’s some thinking… I just posted a response to Patrick about that same thought.
            In the nutshell… the clues need to be followed by a physical movement from clue to clue.
            Followed by an understanding of the clues [references] match them to a map, and then just go to the spot we need to be at to locate the hidey space.

            It’s all about the word “follow” and how fenn is using it’s meaning[s]
            BUT fenn stated he followed “the clues in the poem”… I don’t see how that comment can mean ‘some of the clues’ in either scenario or meaning of “follow”

        • Seeker;

          Maybe it is a one way in, one way out scenario. Who knows? Since I do not have the chest, I can not say with certainty. It is all just my guess, I guess. Maybe he did hike the entire route, but if he did, why drive to the parking place at all? JDA

          • C’mon JDA ~ why drive to the parking place at all?

            Did you expect him to grow wings an fly there? He could have “parked” halted, stop his vehicle in the middle of a corn field or in the woods for all we truly know.
            Not unlike what the family did in YS so many years ago to leave there supplies for next years trip back.

            fenn never described the “parking place” did he?

          • Seeker;

            You are talking out of both sides of your mouth this morning, and saying the opposite with each side.

            To WR you say, ““It’s not a matter of trying, it’s a matter of thinking… Siure, I mean people [ obviously searchers ] figured the first couple of clues and unfortunately walked passed the treasure chest”

            I could put up many other comment were fenn stated searcher walked by the remaining clues and so on.. – Making the argument that Forrest “Walked” the entire route (Despite the poem saying that between wwwh and hoB is, “Not far, but too far to walk.”)

            And then to me you say, “C’mon JDA ~ why drive to the parking place at all?

            Did you expect him to grow wings an fly there? He could have “parked” halted, stop his vehicle in the middle of a corn field or in the woods for all we truly know.”

            You can’t have it both ways Seeker. If Forrest DID walk all of the clues – your supposition #1 to WR, then that invalidates your supposition to me because he would have parked his car at wwwh…BUT, to me, my opinion only/, Forrest doesn’t say this. To me, he parked much closer to where he his Indulgence, and only walked or hiked from the END or near the No paddle up your creek spot – up a mountain to Heavy loads and water high spot, and the blaze and Indulgence.

            Why Forrest talks about walking past the other points, I am not sure. How do you see these conflicting views? JDA

          • Ok JDA…

            I’ll explain the obvious. Fenn drove to a location to hide the treasure… what apart of that don’t ya understand?
            fenn parks his vehicle [ exactly where, we don’t know ] Following me so far?
            Fenn tells us he made two trips from is vehicle, tells us he followed the clues [ the clues we need to decipher from the poem] Still with me?

            So, fenn followed the clues and made those two trips from his car… What is the most likely answer to where fenn parked closest to?
            Does the man need to say Yes, I parked X amount of feet from all the clues? or Yes, I parked my car at the first clue? He said he parked and made two trips to the hide AND stated; “To answer some questions and save others from being asked, I did follow the clues in the poem when I hid the treasure chest,…”

            IF “clues” are not all the clues… then fenn would be deliberately misleading all of us [with all his comments about what he did ], right?
            “…the clues in the poem’ when I hid the treasure chest…”

            Your opinion is yours, I can’t argue “your opinion” but I can submit/revisit fenn’s own words for an explanation that your opinion isn’t logical, unless, you just don’t believe fenn is telling the truth.

          • Only two people can definitively tell another if their logic makes any sense and that is the person who hid it (Fenn) and the person who found it (as far as we know, this person doesn’t exist yet). I like hearing other people’s opinion and decide if it makes sense to me. That is what makes these blogs interesting. What doesn’t make these blogs interesting is how people criticize each other and their tone in doing so. I hope that all of us wishes each other a great, safe adventure in looking for TC. That is what it is all about. I am lucky to have had three BOTG trips with my 78-79 year old father (and one that included my mother) and look forward to another one next summer with him. Everyone involved in this hunt deserves each other’s respect. Respectfully, Patrick

          • Seeker;

            You make a good argument except you avoided the line, “Not far, but too far to walk.” What to do with this line? If it is “too far to walk” – it opens up the possibility of having to drive or take some other form of conveyance.

            You may well be right though Seeker.

            I guess we will just have to wait until it is found. JDA – Yes – the above is just my opinion.

          • Gee JDA,
            Now you’re throwing me a question that doesn’t really have anything to do with “IF” fenn followed all the clues in the poem or just some of them.
            The line needs to be deciphered, yes, but that’s not what we’re talking about [the deciphering of that one clue].

            If I said my belief is that line relates to “Time” and not a physical distance… does it change the fact that fenn said he “followed the ‘clues in the poem”
            This chat is more about the definition/usage of how we/fenn are to “follow” the clues.

            I have been jumping around between posting… read my other posting to W.R and Patrick … maybe that will explain it, so I don’t retype the same thing over again.

          • Patrick,
            I didn’t take anything you said as disrespectful nor was my comments meant that way… we’re just chatting about differences and point out arguments for each of our thought processes.

            LOL… my post are long enough… if I start fluffinutter, making them longer, Goofy and Dal will be pulling their hair out…

          • I do not feel disrespected, so please don’t worry about it. I was not offended. My comment was more related to how others treat each other on this blog.

          • Amen to that Patrick.
            It seems that people are very quick to attack an idea as being wrong rather than to try to discuss and understand the potential logic or reasoning behind others opinions.

          • Seeker and JDA – I hope you both have your trick-or-treat bags all ready. It won’t be long before f starts handing out more hints with the new book. I’ve got my bag ready.

          • Seeker: I’ve never understood your insistence that Forrest walked all 9 clues. You’ve driven to WWWH — voila, you’re at clue #1. Forrest says to “take it in the canyon down, not far, but too far to walk.” But you want to ignore his instructions, get out of your car and start walking. Why?

            The only explanation I can come up with is that your definition of “too far” is tied to something like geologic time (i.e. unwalkable), not the other 3 dimensions. Is this close?

          • My opinion is that Forrest parked near Home of Brown, where he tells us to “put in”. Since there is no mention of it being too far to walk from home of Brown, and there is no paddle up your creek, to me that indicates he walked from home of Brown to the treasure site.

          • Zap,
            Or the waters take it in the canyon down… not the searcher. So, think of why the earlier searchers walked by the remaining clues… If they had to drive into a canyon? Wouldn’t they have had to stop at the correct next clue to walk by all the others on foot? My counting might be bad… but that seems to be three clues and not two.
            Or the Q&A where fenn was asked who else knows…? and part of the response was, a 80 yr old in not going down and up a canyon [ you can look up the full Q&A ] So why do you dismiss those thoughts and AFT comments, and try to force a vehicle into the equation? Seriously, isn’t a car just an extension of your sofa… only motorized.

            There’s seems to be something more about the first clue than just a simple starting point.
            That seems to ring true because, folks have deciphered it, been at it, and “left the poem”… walking by everything… But hey, if ya’ll want to just go with what you hope is simple directions… go for it… head on down that canyon in whatever two wheel, four wheel, blow up dingy, ya want.

            I have given thoughts, explanation to those thoughts, scenario for those thoughts… no one yet has explained why fenn would want us back in a car, driving clues, and say things like… fenn didn’t say he followed “all” the clues Seeker. Nope, he didn’t.
            He said the “clues in the poem”

            “…So I wrote a poem containing nine clues…”

          • Seeker

            So your are a sinks canyon fan based on that comment.

            If so, provide an email and I’ll provide somewhere you may have not considered. If not, the Minnesota is a long way off as that’s the only other spot that is like that in the US.

          • Patrick…If everyone puts on their rose colored glasses and agrees with everything that is posted here…it will definitely be 1000 yrs. before this dang Chase is completed. After 6 or 7 years some things start to cause a stir and need to get aired out…a heated interaction is all good every now and again.
            I spell it tomatoe you may spell it tomato…whatever.
            JDA and Seekerman…personally, I could argue the walk vs. drive first couple of clues either way. I can and have , leaned in both directions. The more important issue it seems may be nailing down the first clue and tying it definitively to next clue. At this point the argument could be more clearly addressed.
            I still “revisit” Fenn’s comment about HOB( if you know HOB why does wwh matter) and feel that was where I started leaning more in one direction than the other in terms of walk vs. drive. In the end…deciphering the clues…without outside bias…will be the determining factor.

          • Hi Seeker — okay, I’m playing Devil’s Advocate with your idea and seeing if I can make it work for you. It has some points in its favor, but it also has problems. Let’s start with your conjecture that perhaps the waters take it in the canyon down: in essence you are parsing the first 3 lines of the second stanza like this:

            (You) begin it where warm waters halt (and those waters) take it in the canyon down not far, but too far to walk.

            That’s a bit of an awkward way to read that sentence, particularly since there doesn’t seem to be an “it” that the waters are taking down the canyon.

            “So, think of why the earlier searchers walked by the remaining clues…”

            There are two occasions I’m aware of where Forrest specifically mentions walking by the treasure. The first occasion was at the Moby Dickens Bookshop talk in Taos in November 2013. Here’s a transcript of the relevant part that we all know by heart:

            “There are several people that have deciphered the first two clues. I don’t think they knew it because they walked right on past the treasure chest.”

            This quote isn’t a slam dunk for your case because those searchers deciphered the first TWO clues, not just WWWH. So they could have driven from WWWH to whatever they thought the second clue was, parked, and then walked past the other clues.

            The other time Forrest said “walked … by” was during the post-screening Q&A following “The Lure” on May 18th of this year. I transcribed those Q&A remarks months ago, so let’s analyze exactly what he said.

            The question was asked, “How do you know searchers have been within 200 feet of the treasure?” Forrest’s reply:

            “Well, because there … people have told me exactly where they were, and that’s the only reason I know. And, and, that 200 feet I think is pretty accurate. But there weren’t very many people within 200 … lots of people within 500 feet of the treasure. But, uh, the people that were with(in) 200 feet didn’t know that they were that close to the treasure, and they walked right on by.”

            Note that there is no mention of these folks starting on foot at WWWH or how many clues they’ve solved. It’s hardly surprising that anyone that was within 200 feet of the treasure was on foot, not driving. So walking right on by the treasure when you’re 200 feet from it gives us no insight into the point in the clues where they transitioned from driving to walking.
            If you can cite an instance of Forrest talking about searchers walking by the treasure chest after starting on foot at WWWH, that would support your view. But I don’t believe there is such a quote out there.

            But let’s move on. You brought up a statement from Fenn without mentioning its rather important context (the deaths of both Randy and Paris in the Rio Grande):

            “… part of the response was, a 80 yr old in not going down and up a canyon [ you can look up the full Q&A ]”

            Here it is, just so we have all these quotes in the same place:

            “It took me two trips in my car to hide the treasure. And I can tell you an 80-year-old man is not going to make a trip into a canyon, then come up and go down again.”

            Forrest was speaking of the lunacy of thinking an 80-year-old would descend into a steep canyon with a heavy load, hike back up again, and then do it a second time. But how am I dismissing this ATF comment? I fully embrace it! I think it would be lunacy. If a canyon is involved in getting from WWWH to subsequent clues, I’D DRIVE IT, assuming driving it was an option (which it most certainly is in my case). So this up and down the canyon business is a non-sequitur as far as differentiating when driving stops and walking begins.

            So I would say so far I find no contradiction between Forrest’s ATF comments and the simplest interpretation of the poem: that of driving, not walking, in the canyon down. But perhaps you have other evidence you’d like to present.

          • “That’s a bit of an awkward way to read that sentence, particularly since there doesn’t seem to be an “it” that the waters are taking down the canyon.”

            Zap, I have previously considered that this “it” is a river or or creek. If that is the case then Seeker could be right. Try replacing it with “the river” or “the Madison River”

            Begin the river where warm waters halt
            And take the river in the canyon down,

            I honestly do not consider this as much as I used to but just a thought.

          • Good analysis Zap.

            I’m also in the “driving” camp, but only because I realize that FF knew where he was going when he placed the chest.

            Now for us, since we don’t….we need to actually walk that “driven” route, because we are to search for a “blaze” that would lead us to Indulgence.

            Clearly, this is a logical and analytical thought that can be applied precisely, because FF tells us to start at a beginning, and then we require the poem to get to the end.

            I’ve said this before, IMO – “I’ve done it” represents “that elusive blaze” we need to locate in order to navigate to the hoB….and thus to the TC.

            I’ve yet to debunk this……


            Good luck.

          • But Aaron, that is exactly how I *am* interpreting the poem. Seeker is not. He says *you* don’t take it (the river) in the canyon down at all. That only the waters take themselves down the canyon. You stay put. In essence, Seeker’s translation of the first sentence of stanza 2 is:

            YOU begin your journey at the spot where warm waters halt and (subsequently they) take themselves (?) in the canyon down. That’s why I was saying that any interpretation of that sentence that doesn’t involve the searcher being the one that’s heading down the canyon is rather awkward.

          • “YOU begin your journey at the spot where warm waters halt and (subsequently they) take themselves (?) in the canyon down. That’s why I was saying that any interpretation of that sentence that doesn’t involve the searcher being the one that’s heading down the canyon is rather awkward.”

            Zap, I see what you mean. I suppose the only way one could consider the warm waters taking themselves in the canyon down is if the warm collided with cold water of the river that took the canyon down.

            In any case if a river is taking the canyon down then I don’t necessarily believe that a searcher has to traverse the canyon. Only follow said river on GE or a map IMO.

          • How about wading in the water after you “put in”? “Put In” is a nautical term so implies going into the water. Even though there’s no paddle up the creek, one could wade without paddling….

          • Zap,
            You would like cited for searcher with the first two clue and walked by the treasure…OK, I have posted it many times, but once more won’t hurt;
            “It’s not a matter of trying, its a matter of thinking… Sure, I mean people figured the first couple clues and unfortunately walked passed the treasure chest.” { SF podcast } while another comment tells of searcher at the first two clues and walking by the remaining seven clues.

            Where’s the beef? I mean car?

            You also asked: “Forrest says to “take it in the canyon down, not far, but too far to walk.” But you want to ignore his instructions, get out of your car and start walking. Why?”

            One of many thoughts is the “And” I think you would agree “and” combines the two lines as a single thought… The question is… what is it that begins? You automatically think it must be a searcher, yet if we take the line prior “hint of riches new and old” a past and present thought could play out as when the warm waters began to halt… or reading it as Begin it where [ in time ], and not so much begin it, now in this present time.
            I could say; begin it where the civil war halt and take in the county seat… would that mean you would be driving a car anywhere?
            Why wouldn’t we consider time as relevant? Fenn did, [ thinking 100, 1000, and yes, even 10,000 years down the road ] So why wouldn’t we consider it [ and more likely than driving clues ]
            Yet, why didn’t the folks at the first clue and the second clue know the significance of where they were?

            Also, as I have suggested before, that there can be a possibility why [ in fenn’s word ] people didn’t quit “they left the poem”
            The first three lines in stanza 1 all “put in below the home of Brown” If reading the poem as “instruction” as you suggested.

            The basic theory here is; hoB is the area where warm waters halt and take it in the canyon down, not far, but too far to walk… because we may not have to travel the canyon, just understand why the waters do what they are doing or not doing [ depending on a time period ] And hoB gives us the correct wwwh out the many. So instead of looking for hoB as the next “instruction” We might need to look for no place for the meek “from there” @ wwh.

            This changes nothing as far as the clues in order within the poem, only following the “instruction” given… meaning it’s difficult but not impossible to understand.

            Now back to you… fenn never said straightforward was easy. In fact he claims the poem to be difficult but not impossible,… “if it was easy anyone could do it”

            In fact fenn stated; “Some searchers overrate **the complexity of the search.**” Does that sound like the poem is complex and we over rate the poem by going out of the box with research about “head pressures, foot pounds, acre feet, bible verses, Latin, cubic inches, icons, fonts, charts, graphs, formulas, curved lines, magnetic variation, codes, depth meters, riddles, drones or ciphers…” which he said, none will assist us.

            Didn’t fenn say we oversimplify the clues and there are many wwwh [the first clue] in the RM’s. And all the information to find the chest is in the poem?

            So what do we have going on right now… searchers in all four states hiking down canyons, driving down canyon, boating in canyon rivers with no known distance to travel. some saying 16 miles, others say 20 miles, and a book that was released 3 years later with 10 miles in it, is now the golden mileage to travel.

            I have said it before has well… if true, then the book and the poem within was useless from the start by not being complete.

            I’m not attempting to change your mind Zap, you and JDA and other believe ya have the solve, and each of you are in different states and different parts of a state… Man, would I like the gas money ya’ll have spent on driving those clues.

            So there ya are Zap… at the top is the quote about searcher with the first two clues walking right by the chest, and more than likely the remainder of the clues. and logic dictates within 500′ and possibly 200′ from the chest hidey space.

            These are not my words, they’re fenn’s comments and Q&A. with my thought added in.

          • Well Seeker I hate to say this, but I agree with you; mostly anyways.

            As you know I don’t believe the poem can be solved from home. After taking all of Fenn’s comments in context I now believe the poem is describing Fenn’s special place.

            The poem can only be figured out at WWWH after we arrive there and see what Fenn sees. Once we figure it out we can move with confidence. Folks went passed the treasure because they had a predetermined solution and aren’t seeing what is right in front of them.

            Just my opinion.

          • Most definitely Goofy.
            Solving wwwh is the only solution to worry about, everything else being discussed should be added as a waybof thinking when on sight. If you lack experience and don’t know HOB could be x, y, x or d, then you’ll just keep walking past the remaining clues.
            But how many “stories” have been told where the person was I knew exactly where it was, but turned left vs right or whatever else excuse only to say if I did that I’d habe it.

            Forget the boasting, the point is if you travel a path to the left all day, you went too far. Maybe some contrainsts will help, where one realized they are going too far and need to go back to their 1st clue, and take that right.
            Make the most of your time out there and keep in your mind options for your clue points.

            So when you see that huge face shaped rock, bend in river or whatever else you come across, you’ll habe an idea that just maybe that is what Fenn say as…

          • Seeker
            I got ya, just say inlet sea, its all good Toby did a vid on it. Nothing mysterious about that.

            But know, you need to realize you’re doing the same jujitsu as those you claim others are of the same quotes.

            You’re hanging everything on the quote that most of thenplaces existed when Fenn was a kid, where wwwh didn’t exist, thereby a loophole was made with most places vs all.

            Perhaps he is referring to the clue points actual places as existing but the distant clue references not. Who knows.

            But for every literal phrase you accept, you equally take expressions as other than literal.

            Have you challenged yourself with your solve? It’s easy to create the perfect solution and another to face reality when no chest is there.
            Testing it is the only way.

          • “The basic theory here is; hoB is the area where warm waters halt and take it in the canyon down, not far, but too far to walk”

            Seeker, correct me if I am wrong but it sounds like you are saying that hoB is a larger area that contains WWWH. If that is the case wouldn’t a person then need to find hoB first and then a WWWH within it instead of starting with the first clue as FF suggested?

          • Seeker: I question why I should waste further time debating you when the first piece of additional “evidence” you offer in reply is redundant with your prior evidence?
            Again with first TWO clues. What about this is confusing to you? Show me just ONE time that the searchers were walking at clue #1. Not #2, #1: WWWH. If you’ve got that quote, we can talk.

          • W.R.
            Because I give examples of thoughts doen’t mean I glued to a single thought. That line of thinking imo is what starts the landslide of forcing clues to be what works for you [any searcher], more than what the poem might be relaying. So don’t think you can nail down my thinking process with any single example I give… I’m sure you have better things to figure out, than how i approach this challenge. Just ask Loco or Goofy if the have figured me out… lol I’m sure I’m responsible for some of the gray hair they have.

            What’s the difference between folks only having the first clue, to the folks with the first two clues OR even some who might have the first four clues?
            If a searcher only told fenn the first clue and where they have been and their process… is that any different than the first two clues searchers doing the same?
            But for some reason it makes a difference to you… just curious… why would it? The fact still remains, [as far as the guy who created all this is concerned] they didn’t know… [ at least at the time any of those comments were stated ].

            Goofy, as you know I have tried every angle I can come up with. [limited as that might be]… But it does seem to fall in the knowing of the first clue. How that clue works, pulls everything together, kicks starts a complete [ correct ] thought process etc etc., imo, It’s going to be the kicker on how we understand what to look for [ observation ] and how we proceed with what later clue actually refer to. [planning]

            Yep, I have to agree [ouch] with you… that we need to be ‘at and fully understand’ the first clue… Even with the comment if we knew what hoB is, we’d go right to the chest… It seems without the first clue, hoB is just dust in the air, and no way of ‘knowing’ it until we nail down the first clue… once that clues is nailed down fully… then, path will be certain beforehand.

            At this point in time, chatting about later clues is a great past time, but imo, in no way possible a searcher can have a positive, correct, outcome; without being on site with the first clue completely understood. ** I just wish I knew why.

          • Seeker

            Trying to figure out your specifics isn’t the goal. You can give an exact spot, and I could care less about that spot, other than how you throw Fenn quotes around in relation to it and used against others ideas.

            Instead, how about realizing that the majority here as a good grasp on them and move past lil Ms Indy.

            Find where your inlet sea crosses a canyon and where Fenn can park his car to walk. Studying a map should take too long to match this, you just need a nearby road with.a canyon and where the sea halted.

            You want to interpret something one way and others the complete opposite. It’s how a flashlight got involved in peoples discussion. Fenn gave an affirmation to a negative question about finding the blaze. So why then did people start wanting a flashligh? Because they see what they want to see.

            But twisting words to suit one thing, then taking words literal to suit another will be foolish. But one less person to worry about competing against.
            Just know then when you comment you do as you say other do. And by not specifying your start you can shield away from confronting the possibility of being wrong. When people say theirs is a spring, confluence, whatever they can receive information they may not habe considered and adjust accordingly.

            We can talk distances and estimate the process, before Fenn said he did it in an afternoon, I never thought it would take all day. But did guess about 2hours. So at most it added some more distance but didn’t take away. Common sense will go further than knowledge but imagination farther still.

            So do whatever, just know, your idea isn’t correct until you test it.

          • I do not think that it is coincidence that Forrest has mentioned multiple times that no one has given him the correct solve past the first two clues, and then decided to title his next book after TTOTC “Too Far to Walk”.

          • W.R. “…you throw Fenn quotes around in relation to it and used against others ideas.”
            What a crock of crap…
            There ya go again, thinking you know what i’m doing or chatting about…
            This is a chatroom, not a planning room for any incursion. We yack about what the possibilities are that could and could not work, talk about the WhatIfs, and we use information that we have been given and try and work through all that information…
            And yep, we all don’t agree… so what?

            The problem is, too many skin-thin whoopies cupcakes that just don’t like their solves to have any doubts and only want pats on the backs.

            I use fenn’s quotes because we have them to study, and think about. The quotes give a conversation meaning, and not the BSing that anyone knows what this or that because it fit thier perfect solve that has failed miserably dozens of time.

            If ya want to yack about the poem and the challenge, but not the ‘seven years of ATF information’ as part of the discussion, then go eat a twinkie and let the adults talk.
            Good lord, another cry baby.

          • Poor seeker,

            Im sorry you wasted all that money on the expensive flashlight when you didn’t need it.

            Perhaps if you bothered to understood what Fenn says vs what you think he means you may get off your couch for once.

            So let’s hear the great seeker thinking for wwwh. And I’ll be happy to throw Fenn quotes at you to show how you do it.

            But, seeing I know where he talks about Yogi and you dont and how that came to be… well, you may want to reconsider your thought process vs revisiting it all together as you walked right past it so many times without realizing it. Though I can say exactly where it is, it would be meaningingless if I did without knowing how to get there.
            Disclaimer: no actual walking is involved, though it’ll be a heck of a trip.

            See seeker, if I told Fenn I went somewhere and descirbed it as clues 1-9 But where clue 3 and 4 in reality is actually 1 and 2, then I can completely walk right past the remaining clues and not know the significance of the area.
            But you solely assume that he said people sent him the clues in order as 3/4 being 1/2, sobit doesn’t mean clues 1-9 is all in one central area, it just means the people who sent their solves did so out of order and didn’t know it.

            Suck it up, you don’t know what he is saying at all and it would be wise to know that.

          • Hi Seeker,

            “What’s the difference between folks only having the first clue, to the folks with the first two clues OR even some who might have the first four clues?”

            It makes a BIG difference if the first and second clues are not that close to one another. That’s my whole argument. I agree with you that if the first two clues are more or less on top of one another, then it makes no difference whether Forrest says a walking searcher solved one clue or two. But I assume you can see my point that ~if~ the second clue takes you miles from the first (too many to walk), then it makes a significant difference whether the walking searcher has solved one clue or two. That’s all I was getting at yesterday.

          • I can debunk this.

            FF didn’t park at Indulgence’s location, but parked somewhere else and then hiked to the final location twice….once with the inside loot, and the other with the TC.

            Based upon average mph for a man walking, this meets all the logic and criteria.

            Is it correct? Beats me, but sounds good.

            Anyone care to debunk?

  35. JDA and Blex

    If you already know the correct home of Brown, then it is not necessary to begin where warm waters halt, unless the road goes by there first. Forrest said if he told the location of hoB, then someone would go right to the TC.

    My humble opinion is that if my hoB is correct, I can skip WWWH and go to the area where I can “put in” below the hoB, then go in the canyon down from that point.

    In my solve, if correct, I just have to find the blaze. He said it “stands out” so I must identify it and get the TC. I am seriously considering going during the winter, with my snowshoes. I need a good 4 wheeler to navigate the roads which may be a bit messy due to snow.

    My Civic might not be the vehicle for winter 🙂

    2500 feet from the road, with a 250 foot elevation. Waiting until the bears go to sleep. Wouldn’t it be ironic if one was sleeping at the blaze? Oh man, what would I do then?


    • Franklin, as one who has already attempted a BOTG winter search with snowshoes, I strongly & respectfully advise against it. Not only can it be dangerous, but in my opinion is a waste of time.

    • Frankiln ~ ” I am seriously considering going during the winter, with my snowshoes.”

      WHY?! Are you completely off the wagon? You do remember fenn’s comments about winters in the RM’s???
      Hey, do what ya want… where would you like me to send the flowers and sympathy card? or should I just wait for the obituary to tell me.

      I’d say something like idiot, but that’s against some rules above… so I won’t say it.

      • Seeker, I can’t know it, but I picture you sitting on your front porch hollering “get off my lawn!” to all the kids that go by. All jests aside, I view Seeker as an ‘old timer’ (within the chase) who tries to question other people’s logic, by primarily relaying Fenn quotes. Now, I agree that his patience seems short with some people, but mostly because he has been having the same conversations for some time. So 2 sides I guess…one he is trying to make the blogs not so confusing to new comers and 2 trying to move through the logic disconnects that are everywhere in this chase…he could use a little honey in his tea tho…back to yelling at kids about my lawn

        • HA! I tell this kids to come on in and stomp the dang moles in my yard… I’ve tried everything.
          Tbug, I have never been one to fluffinutter my vernacular… it’s much too tiring, and I would need to take a longer afternoon nap. BUT NOT because I’m an “OLD TIMER”…
          Dang kids here have no respect for their elders.

      • Seeker:
        Old (enough to be an elder), but not too old (to be an “old timer”). I don’t recall the exact date – heck decade – when my youngest daughter started addressing me as “hey old man” instead of “hey dad”. I still hear her say it with love and affection (and a little ha ha) so I consider it a term of endearment. On the other hand, when my “much older” sister-in-law calls me old man…

        I think you said it well and wisely.

        Please plan wisely with utmost safety and seriously consider advice from others on this topic – no matter how it is said and if it means no winter BOTG. I for one promise, I will not go get Indulgence until next spring at the earliest (just a bit before the bears awaken).

      • I understand your concern. I am aware of all dangers and truthfully, might not do it, I want to go, but probably will not due to snow, freezing rain and other serious conditions. However, it is possible to go to my location even in winter when the conditions are right.

        Idiot = crazy like a fox

        wisdom = knowing when to go


    • Here’s my thoughts, I believe F said [and I can’t quote a this time] that in his mind he knew where he was going to hide the treasure. He may have well created the poem starting at wwh and not necessarily been there by car or walking but from a map or GE.

      In my solve wwh there is no road or trail and taking it the canyon down there is also no road or trail, simply doing it on a map. NFBTFTW is merely distance, realizing the distance is too far to walk, but could be driven in miles. Which then put him below the HoB an area that he was familiar with.

      My point being all could be done via a map or GE without even setting a foot on the ground and not even driving. And it could also be done via a plane.

      What I’m saying it is a thought and not an argument at all.

      All IMHO

      • I need to clarify on taking in the canyon down part way there is no trail or road, the rest could be driven.

    • Franklin…read the Safety First and Fundamental Guidelines links at the top of this page before making rash decisions in your search. This box of baubles is hardly worth another life. Poor choices have been executed by many…as have been discussed or shared in the past. Please “reconsider” your idea of a winter search. Wait until spring….

  36. Zap –

    That is how the sentence is written.

    begin it (where do i begin)
    Where warm waters halt and take it in the canyon down, not far, but too far to walk. (This is Clue #1 IMO)

    It’s a description of the waters, not a direction for you. It describes the geography.

    Also, I thought you did not believe that TFTW was about distance? All this time I thought you and I agreed on that. NFBTFTW is in the poem for a reason other than distance. It’s a clue to the location in Montana.

    If we have to revisit the whole idea of what Fenn means by Too Far to Walk, please do recall that he uses it outside the poem in a colloquial way to refer to anything that he isn’t excited about. He uses it like others use “a bridge too far”.

    My goodness man, we discussed this a year ago, maybe two.


    • I’m simple, I like,
      begin (the thrill of the chase) Where warm waters halt and take (the thrill of the chase) in the canyon down, not far, but too far to walk.

      • I’m with you W.R. I like the simple explanation, and I honestly believe that’s the way Forrest intended it to be. Not easy to solve, but clues that do not have obscure meanings.

    • Lug — I didn’t want to get bogged down in the discussion with Seeker about clue interpretation. The topic at hand is: when do you exit your vehicle and start following clues on foot? Seeker favors exiting his vehicle at WWWH, while I think the poem is instructing the searcher to drive down the canyon (some distance — any distance — no need to specify). I’m asking for evidence that Seeker’s interpretation is the right one based on Forrest’s ATF comments.

      • Zap- its my opinion – that you drive past all clues – until you get to in the wood- where he parked – in my salve I have the treasure about 20 miles from wwwh which for me hob and wwwh are close to each other at a lower elevation – only because its the beginning and imo in the wood is the last clue and that to me would be in a high elevation – imo

  37. I second that idea Frank…why I have always thought that the treasure was in New Mexico because ff said….”not far, but too far to walk”….not far from Santa Fe….but too far from Santa Fe to walk. How far is it to Chili New Mexco?…..”your effort will be worth the cold”…..or how far from Ghost Ranch? “No place for the meek”…or how far from the home of Brown? …possibly an abandoned pueblo. How far is it to Rio Ojo Caliente?…”where warm waters halt”. These are all “not far but to far to walk” from the staring point…Santa Fe. Just a few thoughts to spark the imagination and Imo.

    Beautiful sunny day here in Star 34

    • Hey community….here is a thought along the quote of FF that may have an answer….

      “I walked less than a few miles”

      Some refer this distance to the NFBTFTW.

      Okay…let’s say it does.

      I found something in the L&C journals that may help define this.

      “They had gone to the wrong grove, and Lewis and Drouillard had to walk another three miles downstream in the dark to find them,…”


      Could NFBTFTW be only 1 or 2 miles at most, if we are to surmise that FF extracted info from these journals and then incorporated them into the poem?

      What are your thoughts?

      It does seem to work nicely.

  38. Thanks Guy for your reply – That’s why I too think its in nm – because its not far but to far to walk key words not far imo

  39. i like all the states i thought this convo was about the home of BROWN i like all the browns i have found with wwh but what one did forrest like most there must be something in the sky that i like most like a bag of gravy and steps to walk us up or stairs to slide us down who knows but the word tricky is a understatement have a fun day all

  40. What’s the likelihood that the too far option is actually the distance between warm and canyon?
    So it looks like:
    Begin it where wwwh
    Not far, but too far to walk,
    And take it in the canyon down
    Pit in below HoB.

    I know those headset on their solved is fixed, but it’s resulted little so far. I’ve given up on my fixed idea and wondering around a bit lost, coming up with new thoughts.

  41. Seeker, you said: “Even with the comment if we knew what hoB is, we’d go right to the chest… It seems without the first clue, hoB is just dust in the air, and no way of ‘knowing’ it until we nail down the first clue… once that clues is nailed down fully… then, path will be certain beforehand.”

    Consider the possibility that the primary reason that the first clue needs to be solved is to support your confidence that you have the correct home of Brown, and in combination with the other clues, to give you certainty in your complete solution. This is one way to interpret Fenn’s statements. It’s up to you which path you choose.

  42. Seeker, Zap and others…the debate about walk distance…drive from clue to clue is not in vain. The different approaches to interpretation could spark a different angle seen by another. I have flipped and flopped many times in that area…it is the nature of this beast.
    I like the diversity. It gives a good back drop to gauge the possibilities. Seeker’s “check and balance” comes to mind.
    Fenn has openly shared many ATF with regard to folks having been at the first 2 clues and going by the remaining 7. Early on, it seemed these folks did not know the significance. Later in the Chase it sounded as if he was saying folks had actually deciphered the first 2…but still went on by. That’s where I keep going back to the idea that without that 1st clue being nailed down tight…there will be NO moving on with confidence to the next clues. Another comment from Fenn that keeps slapping me in the head…if you don’t know where it is, go back to the first clue/beginning. Small point…but perhaps this is a good lead in to what exactly is “it”. I know folks have beat this one into submission for years…but “it” could be something more than what the common interps have been. Common choices have been…the/your quest, the Chase/journey and a few others. Maybe there is a slight chance that the first stanza not only helps identify the correct wwh AND what “it” is….

    • Hi Ken — I agree there is value in considering alternate interpretations of Forrest’s ATF comments. That’s why I was happy to concede to Seeker that if all 9 clues are bunched up together, it makes no difference whether Forrest said those searchers who walked right on by the treasure chest have solved 1 clue or even 4. All I was looking for from Seeker was acknowledgement that if clue #2 takes you too many miles from clue #1, then you are going to drive it (assuming that driving is an option). If he won’t admit that, then I don’t see how we can have an intelligent debate about the merits of the two possibilities: clues bunched together vs. not.

      • Zap…Fenn has also spoken openly about his butchery of words and their meanings. My wording …not his. It would be unwise to discount any of them according to Fenn. With those two things in mind…it is not a big stretch to be careful about skipping over even the smallest of words. His comment that I referenced above…was to bring attention to the idea that when he said …if you don’t know where it is,….maybe he was not just talking about the treasure. Maybe “it” has a more complex bearing.
        As far as the whole drive/walk… larger area/bunched clue area….that does not amount to a hill of “Jack’s” beans until clue ONE is narrowed down to where the start point is pinpointed…otherwise it is still a crap shoot or dart toss.
        Yeah…sure…I agree that more points in the poem may shed light on others…but to pin one’s hopes on HOB pointing the way, is to go totally against what Fenn has said about that.
        Carry on soldier….

        • Ken — ah, but if one ~does~ have a very solid argument for what clue #1 is, then I would say whether you get out of your car at that point or drive on matters rather a lot. I choose to drive on (as does Dal, and Diggin Gypsy, and HMA and JDA), while Seeker (and Goofy, and no doubt others) do not. So far I don’t see anything in Forrest’s ATF comments that can eliminate one of those two choices, but I’m open to considering Seeker’s evidence that there is some Fenn comment or combination of comments out there that does.

          • Zap…Nothing is etched in stone at this point…but the Little Indie debacle is a great measuring stick that folks have stepped past. My theory has the first two clues possible with what was allowed in “her” toolbox. Unless she had a better map or was actually present(BOTG) at clue two…she would never know that she could not get to the next clue(#3) without getting creative…finding the next path. Driving or not doesn’t make a difference in my theory. The clues line up and point the way….IMO
            I can’t reconcile gauging my approach to what the poem tells me…to what other searchers are actively doing. That’s a muddy trail I do not want to go down. Too much bias…
            Also, there are no ATF that explicitly rules in one way or the other…it all boils down to interpretation…and what the individual wants to see/believe. Fenn has been extremely careful and I would say, guarded in most instances…

  43. Aaron ~ “The basic theory here is; hoB is the area where warm waters halt and take it in the canyon down, not far, but too far to walk”
    Seeker, correct me if I am wrong but it sounds like you are saying that hoB is a larger area that contains WWWH. If that is the case wouldn’t a person then need to find hoB first and then a WWWH within it instead of starting with the first clue as FF suggested?
    **I’m responding here because of the long ladder climb to the reply balloon.***

    It’s only a theory, and the theory is, to located the correct wwwh we need to know where that ‘one’ and only is. So Warm in this case means comfortable [ as in the use of colors, and where fenn might enjoy being ]. That doesn’t help much until we think that the possibility falls with wwwh puts in [ yep, a nautical term for ‘water’ navigation ] below hoB.

    The theory relies on word meanings and usages as, warm a comfortable color [yellow] and that indicator is, brown [ another warm color ] But, brown is capitalize…
    In theory this, a “title” – Home, to mean our home [ our first national park ] and Brown as the references to that… concluding … Yellowstone national park is the location of ‘warm’ waters halt. { the lake, the river } we put in “below” – The park [ no place for the meek; I hope I don’t need to explain that ]
    The end would reference the boundary area of the Park and drawing represents the river [ drainage ]… etc etc.

    So in theory, yes, hoB is a larger {huge} area, but there is only one “warm” waters with in it [ by the explanation above ]
    So in theory, and I’m a multiple meaning and usage guy, brown is an indicator to color, brown capitalized is an indicator for title [name], warm is an indicator color [ as fenn stated comfortable ] yellow is [ in theory ] the comfortable color that give us the correct wwh reference…
    That is put in home of Brown [ below is the reference to where “we” need to be at ]. But only [ in theory] can this be done by understand certain indicators throughout the poem, and not just a line by line thought process.

    Other may not get the angle here… the theory relates to the poem as a whole [ the big picture ] and the thought of down the road centuries from now, and before.. hint of riches new and old. and thinking the poem as a whole…
    Indicators throughout the poem point to logical references capable of being mapped out. To understand where [ note; the possible correct] warm waters halt might refer to, the poem should be able to tell us [ all the information to find the chest is in the poem ] IMO… that process of finding clues references needs to have indicators to do just that.

    So in this theory… Brown is the word to be in tight focus of… It [ in this theory ] explain what, where, when and why. Which is the possible reason folks “left the poem” and walked by everything. Brown is located in just the correct location in the poem, capitalize, and understood with home,and below, to be usable in the above explanation… contiguous with the clues and needed in consecutive order for ‘below’

    Just a theory Aaron, but that is basically how i analyze any theory… the poem needs to have indicator that tell is how to decipher the clue reference without 1000 of hours of research or guessing… or hoping the book has “answers”

    • Seeker, I do like the theory and pardon me if it sounds like picking it apart but what about yellow makes you think comfortable? When I do a search about comfortable colors yellow doesn’t come up as one.

      Yellow: Happy, Friendly, Warning, was one description I found of yellow. Also: yellow is the color people most often associate with amusement, gentleness, and spontaneity, but also with duplicity, envy, jealousy, avarice, and, in the U.S., with cowardice.

      Did FF ever attribute yellow to comfortable?

      • ‘warm colors’ ~ Warm colors are often said to be hues from red through yellow, browns and tans included; cool colors are often said to be the hues from blue green through blue violet, most grays included.

        Don’t get me wrong… fenn’s comfortable comment is not what gave me the thought… brown as a color kicked started the thought process. But in the beginning of that thought, Brown in the poem was capitalize. So that didn’t seem reasonable… then we have a word that is key, and other statements [ comfortable ] etc. And in my abstract mind, a poem allows multiple meaning of words and their usages.

        If all the information is within the poem… that is the only way this abstract mind can see how clues help other clues to be decipherable without guessing… there should be indicators that help give us a precise clue reference…
        WWH has so many possibilities. [ you have seen all the ideas ] For me, the indicators must work in tandem and still be contiguous in relationship to each other. So an indicator can work for two or more clues… squeezed into a 24 line poem.

        Difficult but not impossible, line of thinking. Every word was deliberate, line of think. It’s risky to discount any word… [that ‘discount’ was the hmmm moment with this line of thinking] Why does a word need to be only one use of it’s many meanings? Halt can be stop and change of direction at the same time…. BUT we have a word in the poem that is capitalized… if it’s not a name, it just might represent a name or “title” of a named placed [lol, I bet a few of the blogger just fell off their chairs with that last comment, from me] Yet it’s not a name perse but as given ‘title’

        Have I ever mentioned I analyze the snots out of this poem, before?
        This post may help some understand that I can chat about any possible angle of the poem that someone might throw out for discussion, and why some of my responses seem to be degrading there ideas… it’s not meant to be that way… my responses are nothing more than dissecting what is stated… just like I do with my own thoughts. fenn’s involvement with his statements etc. gives me a balance in helping me ‘not’ to go looking for an alien egg. If others don’t like my approach with their comments, just ask me not to comment to your posting… easy peasy.

        I won’t lose a wink of sleep…

        • Gotcha, so Brown caused you to look for a title and warm gave you a range of colors. You used a color in that range that is associated with a title and in the search area and got Yellowstone. I am following you so far but it also sounds like you are saying that Yellowstone is both WWWH and hoB. Am I misunderstanding?

          IMO analyzing all angles isn’t a bad thing.

          • Yep, and not sure… The river head north… so www’h’ could be in MT… there could be an elevation factor at work as far as ‘below’ might refer to.
            In that case wwwh is a much more specific location, yet a large river area over all. The same goes for hoB or the park. “Below” may be more of “the” clue itself than the hoB [entire park]… its getting to that point/location that is needed to be understood… hoB and wwh are [ well, might be ] connected in such as way that they are only the indicators to the where to be at… yet still clues. And the reason I have pondered, how many clues does it take to get an answer.
            It’s possible [ by the little bit of information I have posted, on this theory ] That all of stanza’s 2 clues lead to a single location… hence, my thoughts that, looking at each line as an individual, stand alone, clue might not be the way to go. [even though I have chatted about just that… hoB being a stand alone clue].

            Honestly, the reason for answering your question was simply to explain that the poem can be read – as if out of order – yet still be in order. But it’s read more like instructions on how to figure something out, than directions just to follow. Does than make sense?

            I mean, you’re not going to add eggs to an already baked cake, right? But you may not have to start with the eggs, either, just knowing they are to be used later…

            So, the step we take to understand/deciphering a clue’s reference, might not the same, as to following those reference.

            Unless your desire is to keep it simple…

            I still fall back to, two searchers who made two different comments that I can’t get out of my head;
            1. The poem is designed to have us fail… at first.
            Which seem to fall in line with;
            “difficult but nor impossible”
            2. In the end, the poem should be elegant and without question…
            Which seems fall in line with; searcher…won’t feel lucky, but ask, “what took me so long?”

            So that is part of the thought process when looking at the poem…in this theory / attempt.

            One question that I would ask myself about this [ thus far ] could searchers have deciphered the first two clues and be at the right location and not know? I think it’s possible, because they would be looking for a clue that doesn’t need looking for [ line by line clue method] … It’s only an understanding, at this point.

            This also make me ponder if all 9 clues are needed ‘places / location that need ‘stomping’ to, or can some or all the clues reference be the same/small destination… however, the indicators are ‘huge’

    • Congrats
      You violated every Fenn quote you threw around.
      From there is 3-4 clues in the 2nd stanza. There isn’t a canyon, unless you want to jutitsu caldera into a canyon.
      Fenn didn’t have To follow wwwh, canyon or too far to get below YS.
      Or how lil Ms Indy can only plot the two clues on her map, while you did 3-4.
      To name a few.
      Oh well, keep it up.

      • Apparently you don’t understand that more than one clue can refer to the same place and still be separate clues. That’s fine… I didn’t think you’d understand.

        Are you related to Jake? no not JAK, the other Jake?

        You said~ ‘There isn’t a canyon, unless you want to jutitsu caldera into a canyon.’
        There’s no ‘canyon’ in YS? Did you read the post or just start to bark because you can’t grasp something…
        You said ~ ‘Fenn didn’t have To follow wwwh, canyon or too far to get below YS.’
        Again, did you even read the explanation/theory?

        As far as the 3 or 4 clues… the problem is you assume they are different locations ‘only’ and not an explanation of what they refer to… you know, that big picture thing folks like to discuss now and then, or the destination is small but the location is huge…
        or do you only comply that, the two [ small and huge ] are two different things with no connection?
        Funny thing is, I’d bet you think, by my above posts, that the chest is in YS, right?

        • Seeker;

          I will admit to being old, and I will admit to having only one or two working brain cells, but I also have to admit that trying to make sense of some of your convoluted theories is just beyond me, I almost never respond to your posts, because, to tell the truth, I am never quite sure what points you are trying to make – for me, they are so convoluted and obtuse – but that is just me. If you understand them, more power to ya’ JDA

          • JDA, No problems. As you said you have never been able to understand them… others, catch on quick. Some still think I’m loco… ha! love it when I can get a chuckle in now and then.

            I’m also not going to spoon feed every single detail… I post for thought. The theory above is nothing more than a different thought process to “how the poem” actually can explain what the clues reference are, where they are, and how we might see it all – from the poem’s information. BUT it’s a theory.

            So in good faith… tell me where I lost you?
            Don’t think about my other post or ideas, just this theory alone… like I have said countless of times, I can chat about the poem from any [ well, most any ] angles and have. That doesn’t necessarily mean I think they hold water. { and I dissect thought processes, it’s just what I do so I don’t get hung up }.
            So, just stick with this post/theory… what doesn’t sound plausible?

            Just don’t come back that it doesn’t work in your theory, that’s not an argument for thoughts.
            Argument: a reason or set of reasons given with the aim of persuading others that an action or idea is right or wrong.

        • You’re cute seeker, keep grasping at Fenn words, maybe you’ll see your nose one day.
          I keeping short as the words seem to confuse you, and your not worth a long explanation, but hey you want 2 or 3 clues to describe YS. Go for it. One less person to contend with, with that thinking,

          I don’t assume anything, your metric is Fenn comments. He stated There s 3-4 clues there and Ms Indy can’t go past clue 2. What so hard about this comment, its so simple or do you not know what 3 minus 2 is? It means you located a place that has too many clues for her to get to.
          I see you’re confused, but do try to keep up.

          BTW where’s Yogi at? Still waiting. That’s the metric needed to show you can actually grasp Fenns game. Sadly you’re clueless here so keep blow hot air, maybe more will follow along.
          Afrerall surely you can understand
          If you don’t eat you meant how can you have any pudding? How can you have any pudding if you don’t eat your meat?
          Keep twisting man, your pretzel is almost made, oh wait, there isn’t a pretzle… hmmm

          • I’m curious, I have not yet come across the story of “Ms. Indie/Indy” before yesterday… how does it go, and how does it tie in with the poem? Any help is appreciated.

          • Ken, Right?!
            I feel like a fly, because crap is always attracted to me, or something like that.

            W.R. if you’re going to talk about quotes, try and get them correct, It’s real easy… There splatter all over the internet.
            Your comment~’ He stated There s 3-4 clues there and Ms Indy can’t go past clue 2′

            NOper, wrong again.
            Anyone else like to help the laddie out? I have to wash my hands.

          • I see nothing wrong with coming up with various different methods for attempting to solve this poem. No other have worked yet. Most people are stuck on plotting out each clue in order on a map. Something tells me that the solve will be much different and probably overlooked or picked apart and laughed at by most.

            I prefer to try not to disagree with anything but keep an open mind to how a line of thinking can help me. In a solve I am working on there are more directions than locations. I do not believe that many of the clues require walking by. I used to believe that “put in” meant that this is the place you start walking. Today I doubt that it means that. “Put in” can be used in different ways and not just a reference to where you put in to water. For example, just in listening to Game of Thrones on audio book today “Put in” was used in place of the word said in this way: “Get me my sword” Ned Stark put in.

            Also, it is much easier to walk past clues if the clues are directions.

          • From research I did earlier, “put in” is an aeronaughtical term. He was a pilot. I think it makes sense to look more into that, but again his use of that term won’t exactly match to “pilot” speech.

          • I’m not surprised it is used that way too. There are many different uses for “put in”.

          • Somebody(?) once said, “if yer gonna be stupid, ya gotta be tough.”

            W.R., you are one tough hombre. Been nice knowing ya. 🙂

          • Hey

            Loco, do you know where yogi is? If not, may want to rethink your faulty logic.

            Hopefully seeker went for a shower, cuz dang, he stinks.

    • Seeker, I am following your thought process. It does make sense from the ‘whole bake’ theory point of view.

  44. imperfekt, the question and answer involving a girl in India is:

    Can a little girl in India, who speaks good English, but only has your poem and map of the US Rocky Mountains, work out where the treasure is? And would she be confident as she solves each clue, or only confident when she has solved them all? FF …The little girl in India cannot get closer than the first two clues. There are many disabled people who are deeply into maps and geography, and they are having a lot of fun.

    • Thank you. So that would imply to me that looking at a map as an outsider will only find you the first two clues, which most people take to be WWWH and TIITCD… That said, I guess I’m not lookin for anything named Brown or any unmeek creeks or any other clues via map, lol.

      • We dont know about the meek creek but there is a MAP for Brown. Or at least for our solve. we are stuck in Denton, TX till next year. this BTW is my MHO and we admit we could be very wrong but untill boots on ground?

    • imperfekt: keep in mind that the fictional little Indy only had the poem and *A* map of the U.S. Rocky Mountains. What kind of detail do you suppose is available on her one map? Jenny didn’t say she had a bunch of maps, or Google Earth. She had one map of the (entire) U.S. Rocky Mountains. Consider reasonable dimensions for a physical map — let’s say less than 10 feet tall. I think you can see where I’m going with this…

      • You make sense, yes. Especially, using the map provided in the book (the one commonly used as the background of the poem) it would very doubtfully be possible to find… restrictioning the detail of the Rockies onto a sheet of mere inches in height.

      • Hahaaaahaaa,
        what a jamoke…
        Hey Yogi, do ya have anything to offer but accusation?.

        Do we have a daycare thread here? Someone forgot to lock the door and set the security system to on.

  45. I like it Seeker, this idea about how to collect poem indicators that support a clue is interesting because as you said it allows the indicators to not NEED to be in order, since they aren’t necessarily clues themselves (in that moment). I also really liked your ‘2 comments’ that triggered your new approach: 1) it is designed to make you fail…at first and 2) a solve must be elegant to make you say ‘what took me so long’. The irony here is that so many of the louder blog folks seem to be BOTG folks (they’re excited, I get it) yet you and I are talking through the ideas FIRST because to date nobody has been able to answer/justify (that pass a simple laugh test) those 2 ATF comments from FF…(difficult but not impossible and what took me so long). Correct me if I’m wrong here, Seeker has not left his armchair for a search (me neither, but lots of map/GE time). Some will say ‘then he doesn’t get it’ or ‘not a real searcher’, but to prove the real point…you don’t have the chest either…we just saved a lot of $/time (don’t worry I still get out into the hills…for fishing, mtn biking, snowboarding, camping, fresh air etc.). Anyway, I enjoy these hot takes, but yeah feels like Jake the hat eater reincarnated…but I know Goofy already had his black ops apps on the case. Hey, let’s keep it light, laugh a little and enjoy the chase, that’s what its all about.

    • Lol Tbug,
      I stopped reading at “I like it, Seeker… I didn’t want to see a ..but.

      Those two comments are not mine … They are two other’s and stated so long ago I still had one hair color. But it made me think about how the poem could be interpreted with both ideas in mind.
      A complex difficult design that comes full circle to the thought of, duh! When it’s fully understood..

      My concept here is to see if large areas can speak of a small destination…

      • Seeker. You said: “My concept here is to see if large areas can speak of a small destination”

        Can you explain what you mean by this please?

        • Tom,
          I think that comment may be a reference to the Fenn quote:
          “Your destination is small, but its location is huge”

          • Vietnam. Waterfall. Jungle. Cool cave. Relevance to Chase? Zero. Your mileage may vary.

        • TomB,
          I really can’t explain it better than my explanations above… But, Lets try this approach;
          It’s kinda like a spider web’s center, but the design of the ‘clues’ tell you about everything around the center and where everything merges. The spider web would be the huge area, the center, the small location Yet, it’s all connected.

          No, I’m not say it a circle… the web is just an example that the information around the location is connected to that small location… the certainty of the path beforehand.
          That’s not exact or greatest example, but it’s the best I can do…

          • “Your destination is small, but its location is huge”
            Small canyon in a large place like a National Forest or Park or
            a State Park.

      • The concept of “huge” can be one not measured in area…but more in the line of it’s importance.

          • Yes seeker…my point was that it does not have to refer to “area” at all.
            And yes…it could refer to both at the same time. I think the chore is to figure out which works and which doesn’t….w/o bias to what our own ideas are.

          • Ken,
            IF an area like Yellowstone is involved, I just thought both meanings would be usable.
            I’m a multiple meaning guy… thinking along the line that to; packing in [all] the information, clues, clue references, hints, directions, instructions, and anything else involve, into a 24 line poem… and still be so precise as to lead to a 10″ sq piece of land… multiple meanings of words would be the way to go about it… in an avenue of a poem.

  46. All, I suggest you don’t argue or insult. If you do, you may find out that
    the person you thought you were “dealing” with is the Joker himself.

    The above is my opinion.

    • Agreed, tighterfocus. I asked a couple questions, subscribed to replies via email and got good answers to my questions, I am thankful for them.

      However have also received email notifications every half hour or so with passive agressive, sarcasm, or other remarks.

    • Thank you, I share your opinion that it has been a bit less cordial than usual over the last few days.

  47. All – I only revisited this chase 2 months ago, but in the early days, things were far less ‘certain’ and far less dogmatic in discussion! During past 2 days, I noticed current walk/drive issues were relatively narrow vs past walk/raft/etc issues in past. It’s interesting that most here have wwwh as a drive-up location, despite nothing in poem or ATF supports this; so, Seeker is shrewd in allowing that wwwh is NOT a drive-up location. However, since various ATF have FF parking his car…somewhere…amidst clues, if wwwh is not a drive-up location then where does his car enter path??? This is what I love about all the ATF stuff that wasn’t out there at chase start…I mean, we NOW know FF parked his car somewhere, so it doesn’t take a Rhodes Scholar to conclude FF drove his car from wwwh until he parked it (however far). Nevertheless, I get what seeker is doing…throwing everything around into every imaginable combination in hopes of finding the missing secret sauce that will make everything fit (especially some nagging ATF). I concur, something is missing…if FF drove from wwwh to hoB (I buy into this) there’s simple not many places with a road from any spin on wwwh and canyon down vs number of searchers.

    Seeker – if all 9 clues weren’t present when FF was a kid, do you have at least 1 clue that was later via natural event OR man made event (aka construction). If man made, care to identify which clue and elaborate? Meanwhile, as an unrelated sidebar, I think you’re still assuming something bogus about hidey location that I suspect resolves “What surprises me a little is that nobody to my uncertain knowledge has analyzed one important possibility related to the winning solve.”

    • Matt Brown,
      ~The clues did not exist when I was a kid but most of the places the clues refer to did.
      If I truly had that little tidbit of information, I’d never type it out.
      As far as the important possibility… That has been a search with in a search. But I don’t think it has to do with the ‘hidey location’ … I think it far before that sequence in the solve. Heck, it might not even be in the poem.
      But lets jump back to ‘most of the places the clues refer to did’ My only thought, IF man made, would have to be a lasting umm object… something carve into stone or made of stone or material that could last centuries.
      Something natural? LoL the sky’s the limit there… maybe that is why we should look into Geography… The study of the land etc. etc.

      But those are good point to bring back up… there’s not much discussion on a possible clue [place] that wasn’t around when fenn was a kid, lately. Most of the solves posted don’t even have a reference to something that was … lets say… 1945ish era and up mentioned in them.
      That might be a good check and balance, line of thinking.

      The interesting part of that Q&A for me was… [ if I’m not mistake and getting my wires crossed with two Q&A’s ] The RM’s are still moving and will have an effect on the search blah blah blah in 3009. I mean, how much movement of the area would knock the solve out of wack and why?
      This is why I think the poem is more precise [ all the way through ] than most think, by just locating a marker.

      Ok, what say you?

      • I believe he was referring to a major earthquake, or plural quakes and/or the caldera at Yellowstone. Events of this magnitude would make finding the TC much more difficult in future.

        Even a small eruption of the caldera would cover the Rockies with ash and make it far more difficult to locate the clues (as I define them).

        “The clues did not exist when I was a kid but most of the places the clues refer to did”

        So one clue is new since Forrest was a young person, and that could be either man made or created by a big quake like the one around Hebgen Lake in 1959.


        • Franklin

          A earthquake did not make Hebgen Lake.
          A earthquake did form Quake Lake below Hebgen Lake.

    • Seeker – first, both Q & A…

      “Did the same 9 clues exist when you were a kid and to your estimation will they still exist in 100 years and 1000 years?”

      “The clues did not exist when I was a kid but most of the places the clues refer to did. I think they might still exist in 100 years but the geography probably will change before we reach the next millennia. The Rocky mountains are still moving and associated physical changes will surely have an impact. If you are in the year 3,009 it will be more difficult for you to find the treasure.f”

      I recently saw Zap & JDA response on this in MW thread last December . It’s another one of those ATF that’s a mixed bag, but my interest is whether at least 1 clue might be man made. Note the wordiness that (all?) the clue locations…might…still exist in 100 yrs, but the geography will probably change before…2100. This sounds more like urban sprawl where ‘geography’ is a catch all word vs the ‘geology’ of any RM changes.

      • To me this is just another vague statement that could mean a few things so it’s hard to put much stock in. Like others have said the clues didn’t exist because he didn’t write them yet. So, even if all of the places were there he is technically correct in making that statement, IMO.

        • Aaron – reread the first sentence in FF reply slowly, and maybe outloud: “The clues did not exist when I was a kid but most of the places the clues refer to did.” Note (1) FF says that “most” of the places the clues refer to did. (2) ‘most’ means not all places existed when FF ‘was a kid’. So, with all the parsing of words here, how can you blow this off???

          • No, that’s not correct. ‘Most’ means an undefined majority. If I have five balls and tell you ‘most of them are red’, that would be a correct statement if 3, 4…or all five…of them are red. He never said ‘a few of the places did not’, though that is what you presume he means.

          • Roads or trails may not have existed at the time FF was a kid…….all else would have existed.

          • Concur with Aardvark: mathematically “all” is still also “most”. Consider that Forrest is a stickler with words like several. Not everyone understands what “most” can mean.

      • Matt,
        Trust me when I say this Q&A has been beat to death over the years.. but fresh eyes and old thought could spark new light…
        Obvious the “clues” were not thought of until after 88′
        “Most of the place” … Fenn is obviously talking about places and not an items or objects. So just to keep the thought to places, and not so much, lets say, statues, or something that takes up space, lets just work on the word place. I have to think the place is a natural landscape { a kinda of MT Rushmore “place”.] IF man made.

        But, there could be a small problem… fenn was asked about all 9 clues… The clues didn’t, but “‘most” of the places” [ the clues refer to ] did” doesn’t really say all 9 clues are places. So we could be looking at a poem with a [ lack of a better term ] new natural location, and, at least one other clues that is not a place at all.

        Note: I want to try and be as clear as I can in this “thought”… Most of the “places” “the clues” [throwing in the words to point out what I mean] refer to… **as places** did.

        If that should be the case… does it matter if a man made place or places are involved, as much as, could there be a clue or clues that don’t refer to a place at all?

        I’m not saying that reading of that Q&A is factual but it could mean, a clue is not always place and we might have less than 9 places.
        An example would be;
        Stanza two has 3 clues as one place, a 4th clue as one place… {two places}
        Stanza 3 with the possibility of two or maybe even one place. {one place} maybe two* [ If you can read it as “From there” as the prior clue “It’s no place for the meek, the end [ of meek ] is ever drawing nigh, [ still part of the meek reference ] there’ll be no paddle up you’re creek [ a possible place, but ] just heavy loads and water high [ could be the same place as the creek reference ].
        Leaving stanza 4 with [ just a thought ] as two more places {two places – the blaze and spot of the chest.}
        That’s 5 or 6 places, depending on a couple of things… and … maybe even 4 places if the blaze is the resting place of the chest.

        That was just one idea from past conversations… LOL… your guess is as good as mine regarding “places” man made, all natural, or even how many “places”
        My main interest is more about how much and why would [ lets say, ‘normal’ movement of land ] would “surely” [ that’s a positive, not a hunch ] have an impact”

        That is something fenn “surely” understood, when thinking of down the road.
        I said “normal” because we know the mountains do/are move… other factors are too unpredictable to judge, as to where or when something would occur, like earthquakes and landslides, even a tornado. But, we can’t rule them out either. Should one of those happen in the area… it could really make the poem’s ‘preciseness’ go bonkers.

        Remember, fenn knew where he wanted to hide the chest, because, the place is special to him… not bullet proof… no pun intended.

  48. “The clues did not exist when I was a kid but most of the places the clues refer to did. I think they might still exist in 100 years but the geography probably will change before we reach the next millennia. The Rocky mountains are still moving and associated physical changes will surely have an impact. If you are in the year 3,009 it will be more difficult for you to find the treasure.f”

    Places, definition is similar to THE Canyon down, if you think about how ff used it:

    Places existed, Each place, is a particular position or point in space. Each place, not a conceptual creation, but an actual location called a place. The exact clue he passed by or traveled with or used as he took the TC to its hiding place.

    The exception of escape and wiggle room, MOST.

    There are still some remote places in the world.
    synonyms: location, site, spot, setting, position, situation, area, region, locale; More
    a portion of space available or designated for or being used by someone.
    “they hurried to their places at the table”
    synonyms: seat, chair, space
    “a place was reserved for her”
    put in a particular position.
    “a newspaper had been placed beside my plate”
    synonyms: put (down), set (down), lay, deposit, position, plant, rest, stand, station, situate, leave; More
    find a home or employment for.
    “the children were placed with foster parents”
    synonyms: house with, billet to; etc


    • Possible indication for the poem; a place within a place within a place within a place… To an Ant a mud puddle looks like an ocean… perception
      Example; Today’s newspaper in it place next to ‘your’ plate, on ‘a’ table, in ‘the’ dinning room, ‘of’ the house, ‘below’ the empty water tower… not used for decades. Many places, only two locations.

    • Directions: instructions that tell you how to go to a place….
      …if you follow its directions.

      • Ok ken,
        How do we find a place? We need to know where to start, right?
        Hypothetical: you are told to find a tree on the north corner of a ‘lot’, ‘next’ to the swing set, ‘by’ the marry-go- round, ‘across’ from the sandbox, in the park. [lots of tidbit info, right?]

        You might think the park is the location, you’d be technically wrong [ there are many park ]. The ‘lot’ is the ‘location’ of all the ‘place’ that describe a park… located on a lot,
        There’s a lot [ pun intended ] of information in this ‘one’ location… but the kicker is, not direction or instruction, but the ‘title’ ~ “a park” how do we find that particular Park? We need to know it’s exact ‘title’ to the “park” to find the “places” next to locate the tree we desire to find… That’s when the instructions and direction kick in.. next to, across for, swing set, sandbox etc.

        Something in the poem should tell us where all the clues are located, so we can follow the clues…
        In the scenario of above, the lot is the location of the clues found by a title of the ‘park’… is this, in part, what fenn meant by “I give you title” to [ [toward] the gold… a clever concealed Title-location of the clues-?- answered within the clues themselves?

        Not a title spelled out… just a title of a “location” to find the “places”
        Example; the Statue of Liberty is a title/represent a title with meaning… Liberty ‘Island’ is the location. [ yes, I know. In this example the title is spelled out to the location, but the point is, can the clues explain the ‘title’ in the poem to where the clues are located? No guess on where to start…?

        Where is your home? emphasis on y’our.

        • Seeker. Yes, in my opinion you first have to determine a general location where all of the clues are contained; at a minimum, you need to narrow it down to a state, and preferably down to a region of that state. That gives you the area to search for the specific location of your first clue. For me, the state and region came from the first stanza HINT of “riches new and old”.

        • Seeker…good thoughts and def. adds a twist to how one may proceed in finding the start point and tie all the pieces into one.
          I believe that the last line of the poem…I give you title to the gold…is just that…Fenn is giving the finder rightful ownership. He is acknowledging that technically the treasure still belongs to him…until it is located and retrieved.
          With that said…is it still possible that line is referring to the title of a “location” ? Being that it is a poem…anything kinda goes…so sure.
          I do agree that “In the mountains north of Santa Fe” is a bit “vague”. When I think about it that way…before any ATF…before the map…before “The Rocky Mountains”, I believe a lot of folks ran right out and got a state(NM) map and headed out to all of the popular rivers and hot springs, dams and started digging and pulling things up everywhere. A lot of the early searches evolved (including Dal, Stephanie and others) away from NM because of the later additions of info. and public comments Fenn made. Some to ward off the cemetery, outhouse and roadside diggers and some to get the trespassers out of certain areas like the Brown Ranch up east of Cimarron. There are a myriad of examples of how the Chase has expanded…the area involved has become more spread out. Fenn has been plugging holes and ran out of fingers and toes…was it his plan to write three books from the beginning? Maybe it was…then again…maybe it wasn’t. What if the map was never offered up and then expanded with the new Bencmark map? What if Fenn never made any ATF or went on Today show or did radio interviews? What if he never wrote TFTW? Where would all of the searchers be then?
          Don’t get me wrong… I am not a proponent for any one state over the other. I’m a “the clues will point the way” searcher and my reason for the long version was to point out the idea that you made a comment recently about NOT being a (map guy) but more of a poem guy. Ask yourself this without any bias to ATF or anything past first year of Chase…Who would not get a map of at least the area north of Santa Fe? Who would not expand on that and look into more detailed maps? After the search area expanded to “somewhere in the Rocky Mountains” who would not at least look at some maps to peruse and conjure up some ideas?
          I think the basics… subtle hints and background stories from TTOTC, the Poem of course, and a good map will provide the marriage of poem to map and the starty place. Am I over simplifying or over complicating? When Fenn said to show it to a kid…I think that this was a jab at the over achievers and a nudge to indicate that sometimes the solution to mind blowing problems is much less complicated and basic than imagined.
          To me the big picture has become an overall theme that includes the words in the poem as read…mixed with what I have learned about Fenn, maps of all kinds for familiarity, all of his ATF from everywhere, a lot of ideas from folks like you(who like to toss things out there), and my twisted way of seeing things. When I shake it up real good and spill it out on the table…it’s just a theory that I need to prove…or disprove and build on it… or toss it. Eventually…someone will solve it or not…or I’ll be dead and won’t care anymore. Either way…it is fun and I enjoy how your, er, um, thinker works.
          Marry the poem to a map…

          • Ken,
            Common sense says, look at maps… I don’t know every canyon etc. So that for me that wasn’t really a clue, a hint or relatively helpful… Nor these supposed [useless clues, not here or there] But your explanation of fenn plugging holes imo is exactly why they were stated… although Utah and Idah was good to know, but only factual for the chest ‘not’ to be.

            So, yep, we’re back to how the poem can tell us what we need to know. Where the clues are and not a dart toss at a map. I’ll add… two thoughts [ as far as information goes ]. The poem can imo explain where the clues are and what they are… no need for 1000 of hours of researching guess. We just need to be as clever as fenn is to see that information. Nothing shocking or flashing light there, right?

            The other is… I’m starting to understand that there might be a great possibility that the poem’s idea of just marrying places to a map is not going to be the whole enchilada… There is more than ‘just’ the reason of retrieving to be on location, imo.
            Without being on location… there would be no reason for any planning or observing. That has almost surely been proven by so many [ more than several ] searcher who walked by the clues, even when the first clue[s] had been deciphered, indicated, figured out.

            In my mind, this is what I need to figure out;
            Clue reference.. a given that is needed
            Clues locations.. a given.
            “How” the poem tells what a clue refers to.
            “How” the poem explains where to start… [that is not the first clue,] something need to bring us to that first clue without guessing or process of eliminations.
            [of course there are some possibilities, such as, in the mountains N. of SF. relates to what wwwh refers to, line of thinking]

            And, what and why we need to plan and observe, even when, we should ‘already’ “be certain of the path beforehand”

            This seems to fall all upon the reference, location, and understanding of the first clue being nailed down… because it ‘seems’ to me, we will not know what [ for example ] what hoB is without it… cuz if we did “know” what hoB is… we’d no longer would need to “know” the first clue.

            BUT I think that is an almost impossible to “know” hoB, and ‘why’ or even some or all the other clues, are needed in the order they are told.

            fenn preaches of the thought down the road. and “people don’t understand that” Tells of 100 – 1000 years down the road and, searchers “don’t see it the way he does”
            and while it’s common knowledge [or should be in this day and age] the RM’s are still moving… the fact that the movement will affect the clue more and more as “time” goes on… yells to me… “Observation” of these clues or at least the very first, [The must nail down clue] is critical to the solve.

            What the ‘plan’ is or what is need to be ‘observe’ is still on the blackboard… but I have thoughts about those. My biggest problem is milking the first clue. Then I hope those thoughts will put my ducks in a row… botg planned, timed, and ready for observing… well, in theory.

          • Yup…and theoretically…just as an aside…where would you go to get away…where no one else would?

          • I understand all the acronyms used except for ATF. I gather it was some sort of interview with Forrest. At the risk of sounding stupid, Can someone please elaborate for me?

  49. how to find wwwh – first of all when you draw a map you start from where you are – if you are at home or where ever- I think ff did the same with the poem he started in Santa Fe – where he sends you to wwwh – its not far but to far to walk – now you know that wwwh is by a highway because he says to turn right there – take it in the canyon- so if its not far but to far to walk and there is another road where you turn – seems to me that’s where wwwh is – where 2 bodys of water meet- Y- that is just my opinion

    • frank,
      That seems li… well, I don’t know what it seems like. Don’t we need to know where to put the line?
      If not far is too far to walk is from SF… where does that line start, and end at wwh? I mean, you’re basically saying that fenn drove to wwh because it’s too far from his home [area] That still doesn’t give up where the clue wwh is.

      Then the poem could read; Begin it wwwh and take it in the canyon down to hoB.
      Doesn’t ‘in the mountains N. of SF’ [from the book] already explain the first clue is somewhere, up north’ern, away from SF [area]… so why be redundant in the poem to say it again?

      We would have never know fenn ‘drove’ anywhere with any vehicle at this point [the ATF comment was much later, and ‘after the fact’ ]
      lol, we could still be assuming he flew, if he didn’t tell us [ ATF] he sold the plane and drop his license.

      Then we have the little problem with; IF that line is used that way… is it a clue or a hint? That would be a big thing to understand, because apparently we should have 9 clues, when all said and done, and we’re told the clues are in consecutive order ‘in the poem’ and need to be follow the same.

      I’m just dissecting the possibility, frank. Discussing how that line would work prior-to even starting to follow the clues, from the first clue, would be important to understand, why the line was placed where it is in the poem.
      And, we still don’t know where wwh is located by using that line in that manner… highway, byway, parking lot aside… there are just as many of those, as wwh, in the RM’s N of SF.

      It’s great to use ATF has a check and balance to a thought… but we can’t use them as part of a solve in my opinion… we didn’t know what mode of transportation fen use when he hid the chest [ and we still don’t know if a vehicle was the only mode used to go from ‘home’ to the ‘hide’] 42lbs is a roller suitcase to visit relatives in MT in Shilo’s car for a birthday party for the grand-kiddie or something and/or a fishing trip… fenn could have just rented a car for the day and left everyone behind, type of scenario… point… we don’t know. ]

      Ok I’m done dissecting… can you explain why and how this line works the way you theorize it does?

      • seeker – why don’t you try where the rio chama and the rio grande meet for wwwh from there the poem tells you where to go imo

        • Why does it tell you to go there?

          You see, frank. I need the poem and ‘possibly’ the book to indicate a place or at the very least a why-? for wwwh.
          So far, any thoughts that have occur from attempting to find that indicator has been mostly a hunch, a guess, even a process of elimination…

          This is why I’m looking, and been for a while now, how the different clues might tell what another clues refers to, and each clue still being itself [ for lack of a better term.] The other thought is, all the clues are of one… same place, but in pieces. Which might result in figuring out the whole.

          Another words, hoB indicates a place, but we can’t figure that out until we have wwwh, and in reverse we won’t know hoB without wwh, or HL or WH. The idea is synergy; the whole is greater than all it’s part. Where all I see is everyone working on this clue or that clue in the hopes to “find” another clue. I’m attempting to discover why its a clue.

          So just saying… rio chama and the rio grande meet… you need to explain why? IF all you’re going to do is answer with because fenn live in NM or the temperature is just right or because of ‘mountains N.of SF. Those seem to be guessing… just like any other location within the range that has a similar place.

          Think of my process of understand, like an engine… I have to understand all the components, first, to know it’s an engine as a whole, and not just a piston, or a water pump, or a v-8 block. But each piece is so closely relates they tell me where they are all found… in ‘certain’ type vehicle.

          • Seeker. I believe, for what it’s worth, that New Mexico is where you should be looking. “Riches new and old…..New Mexico and Old Mexico. “Mountains north of Santa Fe” prior to adding Rocky Mountains. Hiding the treasure in one afternoon with wife unaware he was gone. Treasure is in a place he was considering going to as he was dying. Others will think otherwise, but I think you will agree.

          • TomB.
            There are many indicator for NM. Some you mention, others; The books given to a single mom n pop store who only sell out of a single store [ and there were reason for that too, cancer fund etc. ] but why not distribute the book, to lets say Amazon, and Collective works still has control, everything is through their business. There are many Oddies with this part of the beginning.

            But you bring up a good point to NM and ‘Old Mexico’ that could explain “time” as to what the clues refer to. But you have to agree those thoughts are still only guessing to where anything could be taking place, and, a good way of forcing a clue to be where you might think or hope it is.

            When we take what we known from the start… there are a few things I like to keep in mind;
            A none title poem.
            A book, that the poem is presented in, and the memoirs of the author for both. [ with explanations of why there is even a poem, the challenge].
            Without the book and only the poem, we would know a dang thing of the challenge itself, but we’re told that the poem is what hold the clues [9] that will take us to the treasure[s].

            So what do most do when they read the book and the poem within, and read the poem looking for clues?
            They, imo, oversimplify by forcing the book or the poem as a general area or region. must be MT [ treasure[s] state] fenn’s treasure and the States treasure’s. ]

            So I can give a good argument for any state or even Canada at one time. But that’s still leaves many many possibilities for wwh and other clues… Take that line of thinking, and think YS [ a region ] within a state [ so WhY is it that I must go – to die – the answers… ] and we still have the same problems. Nothing is specific enough for the clues… without involving a process of eliminations of many many areas just by guessing.

            My personal thoughts is, the poem doesn’t narrow things down [ that would take too much guess work and trial and error as the only method ] I think the poem might be more like my examples… how a clue refers to another clues as to giving up a specific location [hoB for wwh and why the two are connected by a possible key word has Brown…as a color and title. Without brown as an indicator to a color, warm wouldn’t be understood as a color, resulting in wwh might be the ‘Yellow’stone river.

            In my theory of thoughts… all the information in the poem tells us we need to figure out how the poem’s clues work together to give the answers we need. BUT without the book to suggest some kinda of thought process, the poem doesn’t explain itself… all we would have is a ‘non-title’ poem and no way of knowing that warm might mean comfortable to mean it could be connected to Brown that is connect to the book [for example ‘In love with YS.. a place that warms fenn heart, so to speak… lol… but a “one page chapter” that doesn’t really talk about YS park or the river ].

            If ya are following me so far… then you might see how clues are working together to result in a clue reference for ‘all’ the clues… with the book as a guide for thought.

            Is any of that BS possible? Sure it is.
            But only if that is the actual design of the poem. Maybe the best way to put it is… I’m looking for the design, that Handshakes with all the other clues creating an agreement, negotiate, with all the other clues as whole. { I really like that word, Tesla}

            That might not be plain enough English for some… especially if “warm” only means temperature or “Brown” must be a surname or a given name with Brown in it, or “take it in” can only mean a physical track a searcher must “put in” with botg.

            But I want to add to that BOTG idea. I do think it is necessary to be on site [ whether that site is a small location or larger location in area ] Because it does seem like that we need to observe more than just maps and point to points spots. And it all seems to revolve around the first clue’s physical location. My thoughts of the certainty of the path beforehand has change slightly [ from; knowing where the chest lays in wait, line of thinking, to the need to “utilize” the clues in the field, line of thinking… ‘make practical and effective use of’… both, in the ‘design’ and ‘execution’ of the clues references.

          • seeker – rio chama the water comes from abiquiu resovoir where its held there and over time it gets warm where its released in to the rio chama where it meets with the cold water melted snow and ice of the rio grande – there you take it in the rio chama canyon where youll find hob – imo that’s the only answer I can give cause that’s what I get from the poem – check it out you have nothing to loose you wont find your answers until you try

          • I’ve been wake boarding on and “in” Lake Abiqui and trust me…it is much warmer on top of the water than it was in the water.


            I’d gauge the water temp to be about 60+ to 70 degrees tops.

            ….and that is not warm in my book!!!

            Cheers :o)

          • Seeker. I don’t think anything in the poem points you to a particular state other than “riches new and old”. But the introduction to the poem says “in the mountains north of New Mexico”. I maintain that statement, if interpreted without bias or precondition, clearly indicates New Mexico. The expansion to the Rocky Mountains came later as a way to stimulate additional involvement in the chase, in my opinion. I also suggest to you that “home of Brown” is the glue that ties all of the clues together.

          • Hi Tom….I’d have to disagree with what you stated, because TTOTC has “Rockies” well before any quote by FF came out.

            Remember…the NoSF comment was to keep people away from his home or residence.

            Of course, my interpretation could be incorrect. If so, my apologies for the error.


          • My last comment should have stated “in the mountains north of Santa Fe”, not “in the mountains north of New Mexico”

          • TomB.
            I never said hoB is the glue of tieing it all together… that example was only in-part. For the theory that; the design of the poem’s clues to work to reference each-other … all the clues must be glued together… the “synergy” thing… That also includes what the other clues are in connection to each other, to each individual clue reference HLAWH is just as important to wwwh as hoB etc. etc.

            But if I can play devi’s advocate here… The ATF comment of the “mountains” as being the RM range doesn’t eliminate or sure up anything really… The fact is all the mountains are the range itself. So in keeping with a thought of why didn’t fenn just say RM’s in the first place?

            Maybe that is something we needed to understand ourselves. [hence, my watershed theory ].

            With that said, I get that you used new and old as a process of thought.. a “hint” to where.
            But is that thought really any different than the other thoughts of new and old to mean “treasures” as plural, and “hint” of new and old treasure[s] in MT. and those new and old hinting revolve around the correctly deciphered clues?

            I mean, there is only one supposed treasure chest, right? So why use the plural of treasure? fenn never talks about the “treasure” or “treasure chest” as plural in any other comment, does he?

            This is exactly my whole point… we get a thought in our heads, even though it’s a very good thought, there is really no – That is how he did it ~ ah ha moment -. because we still can see all the “states” with the same process of though, and good arguments for each state… That’s what I call the process of elimination through trial and error, and not “precise”. Which forces many trips to many locations to try many theories and on and on… In that case… the poem is doing it’s job very well. [ example would be a single searcher who has been botg in every state, every corner of every state, in every location of a possible www or hob in every state ]… using this thought process of needing to locate a state first.
            But say nothing about “certainty of the path beforehand”

            We’re just talking her Tomb. all I’m doing is attempting to see the poem as precise. The idea of a state narrowed down first thought is a hard road for me to follow, unless there’s an ‘absolute’ for the state and wwh or any other clue to be connected?

            In my theory [ and it’s only a thought process theory ] the clues seem to point to a state and region of a state and an area of a state, and a location in that area of a state..only found in one state etc. etc. etc. but doesn’t “need” the state to be known. That thought process helps eliminate all those trial and error solves by guessing a state as a must know first.

            Right, wrong or indifferent I don’t see how knowing a state first helps, or better, helps enough, to be “precisely” what we need to know.

        • Yes, frank, I know the process you’re saying… My question Why does it tell you to go there?
          Because I want to make sure it wasn’t for another reason I might have overlooked.

          You came back with; “seeker – rio chama the water comes from abiquiu resovoir where its held there and over time it gets warm where its released in to the rio chama where it meets with the cold water melted snow and ice of the rio grande”

          That’s “wwwh is not a dam dam” 101.
          Key words; held, and released… that is the exact function of a dam… whether for flood control, water supply or recreation or power, all of the above… its a dam and can not be wwwh reverence. Even if the connection of the two bodies of waters are farther down… the connection of the warming is related to the dam causing the water [ in your theory ] to warm, and with out the dam that can’t occur, making the dam part of wwh and can’t be dismiss as just a ‘warming area’

          In my mind, that would make the ‘fair play” ATF comment very misleading, even wrong.

          • Don’t give up Frank…you do not need someone else to tell you what to think…get wild and crazy with your thoughts.

          • Ken’s right frank, don’t give up… If there is another reason for the reservoir, other than wwwh or a different reasoning behind warm… explain it.
            I’m open to hear it and discuss it… But if that is all ya got… it can’t be wwwh!
            That is if you really want to ‘talk’ about it.

            How do you get around fenn saying wwh is not a dam? I mean, that is a big obstacle to get around just by saying something like… still waters are warmer than running waters.

            I mean if you really think about it… every dam/reservoir in NM or any state is back in play if that was the case… They all do the same.. still, the moving waters.

          • Not a kick in the shins at you Seeker…but heck, sometimes I can’t say what I think or think what I say. Maybe frank is being frank…and not able to verbalize what got him there.
            Probably, truth be told…frank is only one of many thinking along those same lines. I think Stephanie’s first BOTG was in that area…but her gig was the train thingy. Toby was over in that neck of the woods too, if I’m not mistaken. And who the heck knows why that was. Desertphile probably has/had a bunch of idears over that way too. Cool/nice area…I looked at land there once. Ghost Ranch, famous artists, Chama(blaze)…historical background(old pueblos) that Fenn may have had interest in. Good trout waters around, pine, pinyon, animals, vistas, old trailways…pretty good list of things that may draw folks in to try a search. Folks are probably still searching today for Pete’s sake!

          • I’m sure I would enjoy the area for a search or recreation or just a walk… But we were [franks suggestion for me to look at wwwh there, and I did.] talking about wwwh.
            It’s a little hard to chat about something with the limited info of the stilled waters being the warm part of wwh, when fenn eliminated dams to not be wwh. And it doesn’t matter if it’s called a reservoir, lol it’s still a dammed water constraint.

            I guess I might be asking too much when it comes to conversations… I’m looking for the nitty gritty possibilities talks that includes all the information that has been supplied by fenn over the years for yacking about… and not so much about anyone’s ‘personal solve’. So I tend to forget that many only want to do that, and possibly fine tune there solve or something else about their solve…
            I’m just looking for the WhatIF’s and put them through the ringer to see what doesn’t go out with the dirty water.

          • Frank. I see one possibility for keeping your reservoir in play. If you don’t believe that water in the reservoir has halted, then you could consider the point where a draining stream joins another stream later on tobe the point where warm waters halt. I personally don’t believe that a reservoir or dam is involved in the solution, but you could argue that with the above reasoning.

  50. seeker – have you checked on a ge map on your computer on the map I have given you – wwwh is the gate you might say that takes you to the clues starting with hob -and puts you on consecutive order with the clues maybe if you look maybe if you look in your computer and find 2 bodys of water and go from there youll see what I mean

      • hi sir
        we agree with Ken. i was trying for so long to PROVE we knew where we were searching was correct. It doesn’t matter what you do or what other think about your solve as long as you believe. don’t waste typing time trying to prove to others you are right. i suddenly realized in a posting i had given way too much info. due to an error in wording it got cut from blog THANK Mr. Dal lol
        now until we get BOG and prove ourselves to be right we could be wrong.
        Just know what you know and believe.

        • thanks wildbirder and Ken for those kind words – I just put things out there as crazy as it my seem to try to give ideas for people to check out who knows I might be right on somethings but for right now its just my opinion thanks again and good luck on your chase —-frank

  51. seeker – imo wwwh and take it in the canyon down -its a way of saying that’s where you turn to go up the canyon with out coming out and saying it in the poem imo

  52. Seeker. Think of the implications of “Brown” being capitalized. If it was referencing animals, no reason to capitalize. Exclude references to anyone named brown. What are the possibilities……

    • Seeker. Yes, I am saying that “Brown” is the glue that holds all of the clues together, the key, if you will. And, since I don’t live in or near any of the four states, I believe I am totally unbiased as to the state where the treasure is located. To me, everything points to New Mexico. Of course, there is no way to be sure about any of this until the treasure is found. You have demonstrated very good reasoning ability with your comments. I think you just need to focus on a state, then look for the glue.

      • More specifically, a combination of a “home of Brown” with a “where warm waters halt”, the two being connected by a canyon. Both are needed to validate each. Whichever is identified first, the other must be “not far” away according to the poem.

      • Ah ok, I thought you meant my thoughts of hoB… Sometimes it take clarification to get my head staright..[ ps. I think it might be too… shhh ]
        And like you; I don’t think I have a bias thought either about any specific place. I’m east of the Miss and never been in the RM’s. That in part, is why I have to dissect any thought process.

        To be honest Tom, This web site for me is nothing more than an oversized coffee shop for folks with the same interest to gather chat/debate/argue points about that same interest.
        So thanks for a good cup of joe chatter, because it seem a few others just want to tell all about how smart they are, looking for the pat on the shoulder, and get upset if you don’t milk n’ sweeten their coffee like they want it.
        Maybe someday we can chat over a cup joe in person.

        • I agree with your thoughts, and that cup of coffee would be enjoyable i’m sure. And, no patting on the back is needed. I question all of my own assumptions and try to reason logically. Part of that is trying to see it from Fenn’s viewpoint. What are his experiences, what is he passionate about, and what is practical.

      • Hi TomB:

        “And, since I don’t live in or near any of the four states, I believe I am totally unbiased as to the state where the treasure is located. To me, everything points to New Mexico.”

        Well, that statement alone shows some bias, or at least a lack of imagination in how one could interpret the clues. Decent arguments can be made for all four states:

        NM: riches new and old
        CO: warm (color), al[RED]y know, done it ti[RED]
        WY: so W(h)Y is it that I must go, wise=WYse, title to the gold (gold is a stone that is yellow)
        MT: treasures bold (Treasure State), so W(h)Y is it that I must go: W.Y. = West Yellowstone, MT.

        I’m sure other searchers could add to these possibilities. I suspect 90% of the weight of your argument in favor of New Mexico is the line “in the mountains north of Santa Fe” coupled with where Forrest currently lives, and the limited initial run of 1000 books. And those are not bad arguments. But they are also pieces of evidence outside the poem. If Forrest is accurate when he says all you need is the poem and the right map (and/or G.E.), and you weren’t aware of these other facts, all I’m suggesting is that you might not have glommed onto NM to the exclusion of other states.

        • Yes, even without the other arguments, the line from the book preceding the poem “It’s in the mountains somewhere north of Santa Fe”, tells me that the treasure is in New Mexico. Perhaps it tells you something different, but that does not dissuade me in the least. There is absolutely no doubt in my mind that the treasure is in New Mexico.

          • Tom…you may be correct…in the end…the clues in the poem are going to tell the story. I just hope the finder tells the story after…

          • Only couple other thought here for consideration, Tom.
            Maybe fenn stated it that way so he didn’t narrow down a single state to make it easier. It took a long time to narrow down or eliminate Utah and Idaho, or even another Country.
            Is there more to “rainbow” [ which is something we seem to be needing to understand or look for ] .. Precisely, will lead to the end of my rainbow ‘and’ the treasure:
            Does “and” refer to combining the two or in addition to ?
            or even, the word that is key?

            LOL we can go at this all day [ and it seems we have ] But isn’t all this analyzing exactly what we need to do, and hopefully eliminate guessing to where that first clue is and what it refers to or “stay home”… IF we start off with a guess, we are lost at the start.

            Just thoughts… it’s all anyone has.

          • I’m starting to wonder if all of the clues fall within the four states. Perhaps one or more important clues are just outside of one of them and then lead into the one that holds the loot. There have been so many well thought out possibilities through the years that it is hard to believe everyone is wrong about everything. I’m starting to dig deeper along the margins. In my crummy opinion.

          • Tom B

            It is in my “gut instinct” that the treasure is located in Colorado, just north of the 37th parallel (the Colorado / NM border)

            1. Colorado is never mentioned in the books
            2. Borderline Biddies
            3. Aberrations (near the edge)

            Just my humble opinion…

          • I find three reasons why to place a lot of importance on Fenn’s statement that “It’s in the mountains somewhere north of Santa Fe”. First, it’s in the book and near to the poem, so I give this much more weight than any statements made later on. Second, the word that is missing, “Rocky”. Third, the two words that are included, “Santa Fe”. If the treasure is in the Rocky Mountains and yet not in New Mexico, then no need to mention Santa Fe at all, and every reason to mention Rocky Mountains. This is the way I see it. If others disagree, fine by me.

          • Tom B
            give me your email, which will show you just one image for your question, then you tell me what you think about, and I’ll tell you why.

          • Seeker and TomB: maybe the end of the rainbow is simply the letter W. A surplus of W’s in the poem, it’s the 23rd letter (hello 23 stumps and Block 23 at the cemetery), and it looks like a lower case omega. Maybe it really is a Mad, Mad, Mad, Mad World all over again. 😉

          • It could be… and more than likely. But we still shouldn’t just think that as the only option is all I’m saying.

            Sure, sure ~ some could say, you’re just adding more options on top of options and creating rabbit holes… lol that a possibility too. Then again it might be what is needed to figure it all out. I mean, that is what a theory and analyzing and thinking is about, right?

            LOL… see Tom, Now I’m arguing possibilities with myself…
            But I never have trusted what he says and only listen to what I say. Just don’t tell him ~ I said that.

          • Tom the rainbow for me is a clue and it says that you start at one end and the part that doesn’t touch the ground (where it bows ) means no boots on the ground till you get to the end jmo

      • yes glue is the word. without the correct Brown or correct WWWH you are not going to find the TC. where are you located Mr Tom B. we are in denton tx

          • Geesh & we thought we had a long haul at around 7600001 miles. Another easy going Southern. My family is from Kentucky then Alabama. My great uncle was Zip Newman the sports writer for Birmingham News. If u come through DFW be sure to say hey.

          • Geesh & we thought we had a long haul at around 700 miles. Another easy going Southern. My family is from Kentucky then Alabama. My great uncle was Zip Newman the sports writer for Birmingham News. If u come through DFW be sure to say hey.

  53. Here is my line of thinking interpreting the poem and keeping in the order I believe is proper.

    The first key naturally is starting with wwh, which is hard to move away from. From there one searches in the area of taking the probable correct canyon down NFBTFTW, figuring that too far to walk was a few short miles. Then expand the search area within a few short miles in a radius to find the place of HoB.

    The place of HoB would most definitely is no place for the meek. It could be an area that an average person would not be interested in visiting and would require a different skill set to traverse the terrain on foot. Access is by dirt road that a sedan can easily go. There could be a few dirt roads that split off of the main dirt road. Then one would search along those roads trying to figure out which one is the correct road.

    Below the HoB are creeks that you can wade through, step or jump over. A canoe or raft could never be used because of very shallow water.

    The heavy loads considered as a couple of trips is needed to retrieve the treasure as F would have to take two trips to the hiding place of the treasure. Then look for water high, which discounted the creeks as they are waters, as in plural. Now to find a natural lake which is singular, they all are by themselves.

    Then comes the blaze, one would have to be on the correct road that has the blaze, which could be seen from an aerial view which then botg would be needed to retrieve the TC below the blaze inside wood. At a high elevation between lets say 9 & 10 K above sea level it is cold. How cold? Not very cold during the summer months of July through August.

    The area below the HoB is a small general location within a mile or two that has the TC. The blaze is the key, the biggest problem is what the blaze is.

    I do maintain that the poem’s language does not contain riddles and has no hidden meanings within the words, it is a map with a starting point, a place and descriptions of the area below the HoB

    All IMHO

    • “No place for the meek” is a difficult clue for me to get a handle on. Especially with the use of “brave” later in the poem. This seems to indicate some element of danger, although Fenn has implied that this is not the case.

      • Tom B,

        To me, “meek” might also be someone that would be afraid to venture far from the road or don’t know what to expect beyond from where they are at. You would have to be “brave” to go further to find the wood if one is meek.


  54. seeker – when you turn left from wwwh you go 20 miles to the dam which is heavy loads and waters high where you will hit a dead end – from there you take it in the canyon down -T – make a left or go south to home of brown or go right to waters high – wwwh is just a road marker that says turn here – where it takes you to hob and the rest of the clues – you have to pass wwwh weather you like it or not going and coming jmo

    • frank
      may or may not be, but it may be a name, because to think, let’s say BROWN, would be a family that wanted to be buried near the lake, as it would be your home and your final home, I have my opinion and a I found these stones on the lake in LOS ALAMOS, NM, and other interesting things about a story of his ff and a similar, good image and some of his history and tales many things hit like a hammer on my finger and it becomes a terrible infernal pain to support, but tells me about that mother who got lost in the park and won a prize, it was a lesson to continue your search in that place.
      Because the chest has 10x10x5, it would be 10 miles out and 10 miles back in a park being 20 miles and 5 hours, because the words (From there) in the poem, the 1 verse having (there) the 9th verse over there).
      (in) would be side or side or place.
      (there) place or starting point of a location
      put down the house of BROWN or BROWN’S, what changes is only that one uses adjective and another the verb.
      (Of) this side, house or barn brown or brown, or house of Brown Bears near the creek.
      As you will find the right location if you are looking for the middle of the WWWH, so your ff says that the WWWH is already half way to the tc. If you do not know the real beginning read the book and poem 6x times , for you to discover.
      That little brook that runs over that cascade with granite rocks, that beautiful goat or white sheep grazing on the lawn and her shepherd watching you from afar, who even looks like a king in his beautiful flock of sheep some with his hair or hair already cut and others have not yet.
      (My church is in the mountains) beginning of the book FF.
      Discovering, covered, lying down and uncovered, I get up leaning into position when I’m in the bathroom doing number 2.
      I give you gold
      GOLD, golden, then I’ll brown that meat of bufallo in the frying pan, or badly gone right.
      Just grab the chest and go in peace.
      Peace, you have finished the game and you can rest, and so your FF will be able to return to your secret location and rest without worrying about others.
      this is a line of thought.

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