Odds n Ends About Fenn’s Treasure Hunt…Part Thirty Six


This page is now closed to new comments. To continue the conversation please use the current odds n ends page..

Please click on the comment balloon below to contribute to the discussion of  Forrest Fenn’s Treasure Hunt. Please note that many topics have their own pages. Please scroll through the blog to see all the discussion pages. There are also stories, scrapbooks, searcher’s reports general information, tips from Forrest, a rumors blog and even email responses from Forrest. So please look around and if you want to make a comment please use the most appropriate page.




637 thoughts on “Odds n Ends About Fenn’s Treasure Hunt…Part Thirty Six

  1. I wanted to tell you all about my Sunday. We had visited our grand daughter in Albuquerque for the weekend, so on our way back to the Denver area we stopped in Santa Fe to visit the Collected Works Bookstore. I was shocked that the books were not visible on shelves, so I asked the young lady at the counter where they were located. She said they keep them in the back, under lock and key. She went back and got me a copy of each book from the “Forrest Fenn Vault”. Amazing isn’t it?

    I now have both books, TTOTC and TFTW. Since then I have been eating up all the stories and pictures Forrest has included in the books. What fun! I think he is a pretty good writer and he makes the stories come alive. I am totally impressed at the detail he recalls in these stories, many of which are decades old. I do not have such a great memory, and I give Forrest credit for his brevity and sense of humor as well.

    I have already read TTOTC once, and I am halfway through TFTW. Of course, I am not “HOOKED” or anything (Heh Heh). I am going to study the books and the poem over and over, like he recommended. At 67 years old, I feel like a kid again. Thanks for reading this…


    • Not “hooked” ?
      You will be. It’s too much fun cranking out possible solves and then you’ll get the itch to go search under rocks and logs. That’s where I’m at in only 4 months or so. Oh yea, the thrill is addictive.

    • Hello Franklin. So happy to hear you were able to purchase the books. I have no doubt they would keep them under lock and key. I have found the books amazing. When I read TTOTC, I found myself laughing and crying. I don’t recall ever reading a book that had done so to me.

    • Franklin,

      Welcome aboard the Dal express – though truth be told, you’ll find that there is a lot of meandering that goes on here.

      (Some Where West Of Toledo)

    • It looked like you linked to one of your older videos. Was this the correct one you wanted to post?

      I ended up watching your video on “Fandango: The Key to the Wind” and found it interesting. I like the references to other treasure-hunt books you mention in your vlogs. I had no idea that there were so many other titles like that out there.

      Of course, none of those treasure hunts compare to this one!

    • Thanks for the link. I have watched several of your videos and like how you typically entertain all schools of thought regarding TTOTC.
      In regards to your thought on looking at all of the canyons, I concur that this is a pretty solid line of thinking and could quite possibly be what FF was referencing when he stated (and I paraphrase as I don’t have the exact quote in front of me or memorized) how surprised he is that no one to his uncertain knowledge has concentrated on and/or followed through on a particular line of thinking (or maybe it was a word that is key?).
      IMO, “And take it in the canyon down” is the second clue (BIWWWH is, according to FF himself, the first clue) and his use of canyon certainly helps limit what type of feature the clue is pointing us towards. Others will argue that FF interchanges words, etc. and canyon could also mean gorge, gully, ravine, valley, glen, gulch, etc., but even using such alternative words, the list is not too extensive (as opposed to the list of creeks for all 4 states) so a systematic exclusion of canyons which do not meet the clues/hints is certainly a methodical approach to narrowing down the search area(s)—for example, some canyons listed for NM are not north of Santa Fe so they immediately come off the list, in the 3 other states some won’t be a part of the RM’s, so they, too, come off the list.
      IMO, the time investment in the endeavor to isolate canyons is worth the effort and later will further be refined by hints/clues (such as the elevation hint, and by working backwards to a WWWH, forwards to a creek, etc.) to yield the most viable search areas.
      Of course, this whole process is then convoluted by my other line of thinking where “X” marks the spot due to other comments FF has made, so just like every other Indulgence hunter out there, I need to avoid the rabbit holes, etc. 🙂
      Thanks again for the video.

  2. While returning home from Iowa after meeting my new granddaughter for the first time, a vehicle had passed ours. It was a black sedan with a license plate that read “BULLET”. I could only smile and wonder if this person was a “Fennatic”. I took a picture of it just to go back and smile at later times. Even while away, it seems the Chase finds its way in.

      • I thought it was pretty funny seeing these plates. Imagine the odds from all the vehicles on the road, that one would drive by that had a Chase-related word on it. Again, even while away, it seems the Chase takes hold.

    • PDenver, that was not an old Plymouth it was a Chrysler 300 and BULLET is lisc. plate was from “Breaking Bad” if it was Black I know who owns it, Bryan Cranston, he lives in Albuquerque and owns a car wash, teaches Chemistry at nearby High School.


      • (Second try.) Tom, I just looked at the photo and the vehicle isn’t from New Mexico. Regular state plates…not a rental.

  3. 4 cards and a joker….stay home and play Canasta..(card games) The first joker appeared in a card game called Euchre, pronounced ju:ker. Euchre has 9 trump cards (9 clues) and with a good hand you can “go alone.”(1st line) It starts with 24 cards.(24 lines in the poem) A Pinochle deck cut in half is a Euchre deck.(no need to show both/mirrored image) Your delt 5 cards. (6 stanzas -1 as 4 cards go in the kitty…85%) Naming the trump is calling. (hear me all) I have been looking at the poem as a card game with the scores being my coordinates….A lot of rules in the variations of games. (difficult but not impossible) 3 handed play (Skippy June Forrest) scores differently.

    • Zap;

      You said the following on this thread just before it closed:

      Lisa: storage units are one of America’s uniquely and undeniably horrible evils. People who use them are victims of an industry that preys on the mentally ill. I am very sorry for your lost.

      I ABSOLUTELY have to disagree. How can you say, “undeniably horrible evils”? I ran a storage facility for over a year. Most of the people there were merely trying to save a few things when they had to move into smaller homes or apartments due to the shrinking economy. Almost all treasured their possessions, and certainly were NOT mentally ill, as you say. I have never heard such BS in my life! Shame on you!!! Get a life Zap! JDA

      • JDA: in my experience, storage units are a parasitic industry because they largely cater to hoarders. When you tally the value of what most people store in a unit, the cost of just one year of storage would pay for the contents many times over.

        • Even if what you say is true, that does not make the users of these facilities mentally ill. Do you keep things in your garage or basement that you do not really need? How about the closets in your home? Are there things kept in them that are not essential to your everyday life? Are there old shirts or suits you have not worn in a year or two? If so, are you mentally ill for holding onto those items? I think not! JDA

          • JDA- the mental illness Zap is referring to is when a renter of a storage space pays lets say… 1200$ in one year for a unit full of junk that would only bring 200$ at a garage sale on a good day.


            opinion mine.

        • Hi JDA — this is all rather off-topic, and I’m sorry if I touched a nerve. I’m sure you are right that not all users of storage facilities are hoarders.

          Now, to make this post have some intrinsic value, how many readers of TFTW went to the trouble to look up the first name of Erwin Rommel’s widow? Interesting segue to the subject of the paragraph that immediately follows, wouldn’t you say?

          • It is “all rather off-topic” because of YOUR post Zap. Sure is easy to call foul when the seat gets hot isn’t it? You chose NOT to answer my questions – hummmm? JDA

          • In the preface of TFTW, Zap is referring to the fact that the next paragraph mentions that Forrest tried to visit the bar in Naples, Italy where Lucky Luciano was hanging out.

          • Zap, a search on tarryscant.com revealed the Q&A tale of Alfredo Luciana, who once tried to sell Forrest an “authentic” knife used to kill Julius Caesar. Was that the one you were referring to, or is there another?

          • So what do you think is the significance of the 3 Lucia’s, Zap? Does it marry up to an area of interest for you?

            Don’t forget the old saying that I just made up: “Lucia’s of three, let them be.”

          • Hi Blex: no clear-cut hint in those Lucias for me. The double L’s are relevant to my solution (all three of them have 1 L in the first name, and 1 in the last). And who knows? Maybe that’s the whole point of all the ELLAs (Graciella, Romnella, Bella, Orson Welles, Richard Wetherell (sic)). There are doubles all over the place in Forrest’s writing: double omegas, Robert Redford, borderline biddies, dying daffodils, and of course Forrest Fenn himself. Don’t have my notes (I’m on my phone) but there are dozens of other instances of alliteration in his books.

          • SL, You talking to me? OS2?

            Again, with both feet! And unless you’re pulling my leg, I don’t understand any Gurtrud linkage to the Chase

            Nor do I understand why ‘flowers’ are sent to the daughter of a WWII general unless the senders know her or the family personally . Seems pretty remote, ditto for Zap’s Lucies.

            I reread chapter 24 in TFTW to see if there was a cross-continental hint. There wasn’t. But I did love ff’s opening sentence, and ‘thirsty ears’ did remind me that perhaps when you listen good warm waters halt. And I was also reminded of a Jenny Kyle Q in which ff mentioned killing Hitler. So, I might be missing something… perhaps its the MYTH aspect, or the COLD war, or the DESERT fox, or forced SUICIDE. Back burner stuff to me.

        • I’ll have you know Zap, that ALL my things for a 3 bdrm 2 bath house, my dad’s memorial flag an d purple heart was in there, family albums and heiooms that can’t be replaced lost, completely gone due to a family members broken pro.mise to pay it when we became homeless for 1 month til I got another job let alone a place to live. A hard situation, and I’m not mentally ill or a hoarder.
          The cost of all belonging were around $5,000, but sentimental value can NEVER be repla ed.
          My take away after feeling loss likened to a death in the family, was that of course you can’t take it with you. And now I can commiserate with those who have list all but their very lives in floods, fires, hurricanes and .mudslides, etc.
          Lisa is right love conquers all! 🙂

          • I am sorry for your losses Kym. Please try to keep the memories alive, if that is all that you now have. Thanks for sharing – JDA

          • Thank you JDA, I prayed and God comforted me, and then told me that I will comfort others with the same comfort that I was given. He is awesome, but, still hasn’t answered my request to tell me where Forrest Fenns treasure chest is! Lol lol lol

          • Kym: I’m very sorry to hear about this horrible event in your life. So the contents were confiscated due to a missed payment? If so, that’s pretty heartless.

          • Thanks Zap, yea, it became the reason for me “packing light” these days :), easier to find things lol, except that elusive bronze chest

          • Kym: there are certainly benefits to a Spartan or even Buddist existence. The West places way too much significance on “stuff”. It’s experiences, and relationships and memories that matter. While the lure of Forrest’s golden trove is strong, I don’t need the money. For me it’s really the intellectual challenges of matching wits with the puzzlemaker.

          • That’s true Zap, the real treasure is the joie de vivre, our families, friends and all the in between that teaches us what true love is really. I really don’t think that I’m smart enuf to find his box. Lol I believe a symposium will be needed to find it. A real team effort. But then again, I was hoping I just might be that dreamer who could actually find it to finance my dream ranch 🙂

    • Hi Wildbirder,
      To answer your question, there really was no reason for turning the cover upside down. I just oriented the stars where they belong.
      I think we were all making comments about the cover and that was mine. What do you think? Maybe a mirror image?

    • I posted following on their FB page”

      Listened to your FF podcast. Forgive my pun, but in a nutshell, too much missing / possibly misleading information beginning with your omission of the entire first stanza of his poem titled The Thrill of the Chase. Some believe there is a clue in this stanza.

      “As I have gone alone in there
      And with my treasures bold,
      I can keep my secret where,
      And hint of riches new and old.”

      And when did Fenn say you can’t get their by car? In his book he wrote about walking back to his car after hiding the treasure. Perhaps the location of the treasure (Indulgence) is not reachable by car, but suggest a car is needed to get to a point to get to Begin it WWWH.

      Here was (Jack’s) response:

      Folk Brothers Podcast We will definitely include this as a correction.

      He has said that it wasn’t near a trail. I assumed that also meant a road. I did know that he drove to a spot and then walked back and forth twice in a day. I guess it would come down to what someone considers near. I’ll make sure we mention that in our next episode and clarify. I was figuring near meant like 500 feet.

      Either way. Thanks so much for the correction!

    • Yeah, Road Hawk and KidUtah — mildly entertaining, but repeatedly skipping the entire first stanza was a pretty big blunder. They also claim when talking about the elevation range restrictions that the treasure “could” be on top of a mountain, when Forrest has clearly stated that it is not.

      They mention highway 212 in Yellowstone passing through Icebox Canyon as being a clever/figurative solution to WWWH due to water boiling at that temperature. (Of course, that’s only the boiling point of water at sea-level; water’s boiling point is well below 212 in any part of Yellowstone.) In any case, Icebox Canyon was one of my early favorites, but I could never marry a satisfying HoB to that area.

      • Just read this for 1st time. Mildly for sure. Not only does water boil at different temperatures at different altitudes, but cakes rise and fall differently, as well. Just ask my wife who has become a fantastic baker at different altitudes using both metric and customary U.S. measurement systems depending on the recipe. And Refrigerator Canyon in Zion NP, Utah once crossed my mind; but that was a fleeting moment long before the not in Idaho or Utah comment.

  4. Sean thank you for your reply about Montana. do you live in NM or do i have you confused with someone else.

    • Wildbirder
      I have lost track of the back and forths amongst all these topic threads. I was born in NM, and am moving to Santa Fe in a few months, but I don’t believe I’ve talked with anyone here about it yet.

  5. Towards the end of the book, TTOTC, F made bronze bells and jars he buried. On some of those he has frogs depicted. What is the meaning of the frogs? Could the frogs be related to the Chase? Did F ever mention what the purpose of the frogs where?

    • I have seen several discussions about “frogs”, but I have never seen a quote from Forrest regarding them. Maybe someone else has seen a quote. Sorry, I can’t be of more help.

      “Could the frogs be related to the chase? Probably, but not sure yet. JDA

      • JDA
        the more interesting is the color of it, and on what it is used for fishing, there is the play of rainbow fishing, calcareous, mountains, figures, wells, and even the water runs below them
        has some of these places in ynp and wym.

    • Believe the frog is a reference to finding a bell. It’s logical to think that somewhere on your path to the chest you will be able to find a bell first. Around the 8th clue. IMO. Think 1000 years down the road, ring a bell so f will know, kind of thinking. From what I see, the frog is in the landscape. Doesn’t pin-point anything, but maybe shows you are in the right area. All, IMO.
      There are “Brown” frogs… What’s f’s moms’ name?…:)

    • Forrest said he likes to fabricate long legs and buggy eyes about the bell frogs. And more recently, frog legs is some of the best food in the world. g

    • CharlieM
      of which antiquity comes the frog, from which comes the golden nuggets, where it is written on the colcar with claw, how much is worth a signature of the self briografia of his ff

  6. For those with coordinates, by adding them together, subtracting them together, then subtracting or adding those totals, if you come up with 2442, you may have something. 2+4=6, 4+2=6. 6th letter of the alphabet= F. FF, may be the reason why he chose that exact spot. He could have chosen anywhere around the area he chose and it would still be considered his special spot. He chose this one particular spot for a reason.
    If you have the coordinates, you could go right to the chest.
    If your clue lines can also be added together to get 2442, then you may be well on your way. Also, may be an indication that you have the right clues. Add the key line and you may have your “Book of Days”.
    Just a thought…(29.220 = amount of days in 80 years)

    • Hi Charlie: gotta be careful with numerical manipulation when trying to manufacture coordinates. I’ll give you an example. Write down a 3 digit number–any number. Underneath it, write the # in reverse order. Subtract the larger number from the smaller. Beneath that result, write it in reverse order. Add those last two together. Your answer is…


        • I know this new math is beyond me but – 1 + 0 = 1, then 1 + 8 = 9 then 9 + 9 = 18 NOT 9 Doesn’t it? Just askin JDA

          • Hi JDA: info-only, and completely irrelevant to the Chase, it’s base-10 numerology addition (add digits together until you get a number less than 10.) A mathematically simplistic system that suggests that 27, 45, 234, 9, and 3141 are all interchangeably equivalent on some mystical level.

          • simplest form JDA. 2+8+9=19.
            If you had the numbers thing, and a three letter word had values of 2,8,9,
            then, simplest form, that word “COULD”= 1. Or 19, or 10…etc…

          • Thanks for the explanation Charlie.
            Where do the numbers for the three letter word come from? A = 1 B =2
            if so. then does JDA = 10, 4, 1?
            then – 10 + 4 + 1 = 15
            1+5= 6
            So now that I know that JDA = 6 – what do I do with this “6”?

            What does the “6” tell me?

            Sorry for being so thick skulled. JDA – or should I just sign out with a “6”

          • FYI – in Mumerology, multiple digits in a number are added together until a single digit number is the result.

            1 + 0 + 8 + 9 = 18 = 1 + 8 = 9
            The number 9:

            FF did say a “safe” would find it….unfortunately many still think that an esoteric connection is not involved.

            Be the chest, JDA….be the chest.

            Cheers and good luck.

          • Sorry JDA…I need to work on spell checking.

            Numerology I meant.

            “Sage”… Not safe.

            My apologies, but i think you get the meaning of the post.

            Best regards,

      • nope, already have the coordinates, but noted. I was just putting out an example of a possible. There’s hidden hints all over the place.

  7. It is interesting that Forrest has the Southern Cross Constellation (Crux) on the bottom right corner of the new book. Well, it looks awfully like it.

    • good observation John R, but looks abit like the B.Dipper from this angle – albeit i’m currently residing on A.Centauri at mo 🙂

      Zap says “hi” btw – he’s out playing golf ..again!!

      ( ..tsk tsk ..s.m.h 🙁 )

    • But inquisitive Mr.
      Hobbitses, how is it you know of this Big Dipper that never graces your upside-down skies? (I did enjoy watching Orion snooze on his back shooting arrows into the sky from Te Anau… so strange!)

    • jeez Zap, the last time ‘mr Orion sir’ randomly loosed an arrow whilst lazily frolicking in Te Anau, it very nearly hit one of our leading politicians, fyi

      i mean.. talk about a lousy shot!! 🙁

      ( ..fact 🙂 )

  8. A question for any or all. Whenever the hunt for Indulgence comes to a halt, what other things might you pursue? Besides my other hobbies, work, and family, I can see myself jumping into another treasure hunt. This of course is dependant upon the Chase finishing, which may or may not for many years.

    • HMA, I’m not sure that I would dive into another treasure hunt or contest personally. This Chase is unique and when it ends I don’t think that there is anything that would replace it, and I’m ok with that. I’d probably just go back to hiking in the Rockies for the reward in itself.

      • I would also continue my other favorite hobby: playing tabletop games! I thought I’d share one that we just tried out last weekend that was most excellent: “Exit: The Game” For those of you who like solving puzzles, this one was a blast! You can only play it once and then it goes in the trash, but it only costs $10 and is money well spent for an hour or two’s fun time. Check it out if anyone’s interested:


        • the only games you need to worry about is Marbles, Tops and yo-yos….

          you guys need to listen better… right ff?

          • I don’t think tops and yo-yo’s qualify as games….

            But hey, if they still keep you mentally engaged, then who am I to judge? Have a blast, adult!

          • James(TZP): you could be dangerous if you actually understand the significance of those childhood games!

          • Zap… I do. Think about this… do you think it’s reality that Forrest actually sat in a class room and whittled Tops and yo-yo and got away with it in 1943.

            Therefore there’s a significant reason he wrote that and I DO KNOW why.

            Ohh… so Goofy won’t ban me… all IMHO

          • “Non-fiction writers don’t have to be right but eighty-five percent of the time and everyone knows that.” Fenn sure has some fun with his self-allotted 15%.

          • I would like to add that Fenn kept in sandstone slab in his pocket in order to shape agates into marbles.

  9. Didn’t forrest say he hid the treasure in a special place. So if you see the blaze,look down.the treasure will be there. So is this special place and the blaze the same thing.place,spot,mark.object?

    • I believe the blaze gets you very close. 200ft to 500ft away. The blaze is huge in my opinion and will be around for a long while. Think concealing bones in close proximity the blaze. The special place is an area he visited. Not necessarily a small location.

    • Virginia. I believe that the blaze and the special place are one and the same, and that the treasure is located within the blaze. This is my deduction from the way the poem reads, but I could be wrong of course.

      • Tom lets say the blaze is warm – and to look for the treasure you have to get away from the blaze where its warm and in to the cold (your efforts will be worth the cold) if you are brave and in the wood ill give you title to the gold – its my opinion that the blaze is no where near the treasure chest

    • Virginia, it’s not quite that uncomplicated or easy. In order
      to identify and find the blaze, you’ll have to out-think many
      other searchers who have solved the poem pretty well up
      to that point. And even after having the blaze “nailed down”,
      there’s a “twist” that has been noticed by several searchers.

      Good luck with all this. Please don’t give up.

      By the way, have you shown the poem to several

      Have you used a dictionary to look up “halt” and other
      common words?

      The above is my opinion.

      • Mr. Fenn: How far is the chest located from the blaze? ~ casey
        Casey, I did not take the measurement, but logic tells me that if you don’t know where the blaze is it really doesn’t matter. If you can find the blaze though, the answer to your question will be obvious. Does that help?f

  10. I just took another look at the promo for Forrest’s new book on the main page, and noticed the line “surprise illustrations”. What do you suppose THAT means?

  11. FF has stated many things that I believe all must fit the area in order to find indulgence. Some of his most recent statements to us are the most important. Such as;
    1) If you have a search partner best they stay with the car.
    To me this means that FF may have parked in a place where it is not legal to park long term. For years FF has stated do not go alone. Now he is saying have your search partner stay with the car? I have a feeling it is not a long walk from where a searcher needs to park and if the searcher does not want their car towed better have someone stay with it.

    2) There is not a human trail in close proximity.
    As FF stated recently when you walk up the river make sure you have felt footed waders. Walking in the river affirms that there are no human trails in close proximity and gives a reason for it ” to be worth the cold “.

    3) I believed I knew of a place that fit both of those. I even found a blaze. However what I was unable to find was a place where FF could hide not only indulgence’ but his body as well for possibly 1,000 years’ that a child could get to with a little help.

    I found a place where I believe it possible for both FF and indulgence could be hidden for that long, but when I saw the 6 story shear rock cliffs with nowhere to walk but in white water laden with boulders and trees, some of which could not be readily seen, I decided that a child could not go there with just a little help.

    So I turned to look for another area locally. I remembered FF stated that several people had figured out the first few clues and then gone right past it. I realized, or thought I had, that instead of “putting in” as FF stated I followed the road instead going right past where FF said we should go in our search area. IF I was right that is. So I went to talk to some Rangers and get some information about the area stating that I wanted to walk the river and explore. The Rangers told me no way. The area was hazardous and potentially deadly and no one was allowed to walk there. I seem to remember FF stating in the forward to TFTW that ” there was no one there to tell me I couldn’t do that” when he put in with his float carrying his supplies for his fishing trek in the Madison. Is it possible FF went into a potentially dangerous area? Were the Rangers being over zealous with their description to keep me out of an area that they stated ” you could damage the ecosystem” if I went there?

    I seem to be back at square one again. Maybe something I have said above might help someone in some way. Stay Safe

    • Hello sweetbutnaughty, If the area is dangerous for a person or dangerous to the environment then IMO it seems an unlikely spot for the TC. Also, if rangers know of the place that you are referring to then I find it hard to believe that it would be a spot special only to FF.

      I have thought a lot about the “not in very close proximaty to a human trail” quote. To me if it is not in very close prox then it could still be in close prox to a human trail. It is up to us to guess at what that distance may be IMO.

      Thanks for sharing!

  12. If you will continue to indulge me there are other things FF stated that must “fit” in order to find indulgence. Such as;
    1) You will find no mildew in the chest. I know of 3 rivers, not in their entirety, but in places in those rivers, where it is not possible for mildew to live. Mildew must have slightly acidic water to survive. But there are areas of the Madison, The Galatin and the Firehole rivers where mildew cannot live. I will not say why other than to say it has to do with the chemical makeup of the water.
    2) “The box is wet”. To me this is a very definitive statement. Not that the box is wet sometimes but rather the box is always wet. In the forward to the new book, it is stated that FF removed the $500 and $1,000 bills for fear they would deteriorate. I believe this supports my belief that the box is always wet, POSSIBLY to the extent that the box is full of water. There are 3 reasons the box could be wet in my mind. One is a falls, two is a geyser. The third I will not discuss. As FF stated it ” lives out on the edge”.

    Again Stay Safe

    • I am not a chemist/physicist, and I haven’t played one on TV either, however, I am not sure that brass will mildew. It will tarnish, which may appear to be mildew, but is a chemical reaction, not a fungus. Hence, IMO, FF is correct with his statement that you will not find any mildew on the chest. As to the chest being wet comment, I think this again has to do with brass and how it reacts. If memory serves, FF commented that he let the children touch things in his art gallery, one of which was a brass item which always felt cool to the touch. Couple that with another comment he made (again if memory serves) that “Physics tells me the chest is wet” and, IMO, he is describing that the brass chest is reacting to the air and temperature around where it is resting and is “sweating” and/or cool to the touch/frosty—which is a form of wet. Again, IMO.

      • Bowmarc;

        The “box” is made of Bronze, and not brass. There are bronze statues around that were made thousands of years ago. Tarnishing is called patine. Chemicals can be brushed on bronze to get a desires patina. JDA

        • That’s what you get when you are up in the wee hours of the morning. I was thinking bronze and put in brass. Thanks for the correction.
          Same premise applies, though—it is patina (a chemical reaction) and not mildew.

        • Isn’t the box a bronze encased wood box?
          If wood does get wet, it will cause mildew.

          If the bronze chest was made well enough, there would be a way to seal the outer edges so that water could not penetrate the bronze outer sides,in order for water to get past the deal and bronze, in order to get to the wood, to cause mildew.

          I think FF thought of the ramifications of water beforehand.

      • My assumption is that the chest is “wet” because it’s below ground and covered with a stone or rock, in which case it would be “damp” year round.

  13. Hi Guys,

    Forrest has a double Omega on the last page of TTOTC, can anyone tell me if he has the double Omega on any off his other books.

    If so what are the other books called and does the symbols also appear on the last page?

    I don’t have any of the books unfortunately, but I would be keen too know the answers to these two questions.

    Take care all and stay safe.

    Ronnie the Scot

    • Hi Ronnie — the double omegas are also used in the Colophon of Too Far to Walk, prior to the fold-out map.

      • From Wikipedia:

        ‘The term colophon derives from the Late Latin colophōn, from the Greek κολοφών (meaning “summit” or “finishing touch”).’

          • Hey-O, Kym –

            Those Twin Peaks are Long’s Peak (a fourteener) and Mount Meeker (a thirteener), both in Rocky Mountain Nat’l Park. If I remember right, they’re the two highest peaks in the Park.

            They are part of the Front Range Mountains, which are bona fide Rocky Mountains, though the term “Front Range” is also applied to the I-25 population corridor at the foot of the Front Range Mountains.


          • There are also the Twin Sister Peaks slightly east of Long’s & Meeker in RMNP that I would also consider to still be in the Rocky Mountains. Not sure if you might have been referring to these.

          • Long’s and Meeker are prominent features on the “I-25” western horizon from the Wyoming border south to Denver.

            From Longmont they line up just right to make a Twin Peak – and there are a number of businesses (and a golf course) in Longmont named Twin Peaks based on that prominent (and snow-capped most of the year) view.

            Twin Sisters (I had to look them up) are too low to be noticeable from Longmont, Loveland, or Ft Collins.


          • Thanks Blex – interesting article!

            I’ve lived on the Front Range for almost 40 years, and like you I’ve never heard of Longs/Meeker called the Twin Peaks anywhere – except in Longmont.

            The peaks on the City of Longmont logo are definitely Long’s and Meeker though, not the Twin Sisters –


            As are the Twin Peaks on the old (now gone) Twin Peaks mall logo, and on the logo of the Twin Peaks charter school (both in Longmont).


          • Those are some good points, J A Kraven. If it helps anyone’s solve, I can go along with calling Longs & Meeker “Twin Peaks”. Come to think of it, I forgot why we were talking about this in the first place! Was it because we’re thinking they might tie into the double-omega somehow?

    • @Ronnie mcclean re double Omegas in other books, last page etc. There are two, back of book titled ‘too far to walk.’ I can’t comment on his other publications. I’ve heard he will take the meaning of this to his grave! I think he and his friend Eric Sloan had a shared reason for the use, but don’t know 100%, IMO disclaimer etc etc.

      • I think that I MAY have solved the riddle of the double Omega’s. I will not know for sure until (and IF) I find Indulgence, and then can ask Forrest. Let’s hope. JDA

  14. JDA – And the diamonds in the sky were stunning at Campfire Lodge night before last. Just before Dawn, I know I saw the rare alignment of several planets, and I think I saw the International Space Station fly over. It was Forrest’s new book cover and your comments about it that made me get in the car and go.

    But 8 grizzlies stood in my way to reach my spot, reported by bow hunters in the late afternoon the previous day. Not My Grizz, but probably his girlfriends and their families. Three Sows, two Yearlings and three Cubs. The Perfect Storm. I am proud to say I went alone in there anyway yesterday morning. But prints in the mud of all sizes going both directions and no one else on the trail finally got the best of me. Plus it was 32 degrees and my fingers were frozen. I didn’t think I could take the safety off and trigger my bear spray that someone gave me with my running gloves on. Well , and then there were all those people who own and work for Campfire Lodge, and all the fly fisherman at breakfast there, who thought I was nuts for going “alone in there”. And also Penny from the Hebgen Lake District forest service office in West Yellowstone. She was so glad when I stopped by to meet her in person yesterday afternoon, to tell her that I didn’t go all the way in. She said she took a survey since I had called her the day before , and none of the Rangers or staff in the office or their friends would have done it. The narrow trail along the talus slope with berry bushes and gnarled trees along the way, high above the creek, provides No Escape from a Grizz
    Gut piles created by the bow hunters attract so many grizzlies right now, who are fattening up for hibernation, that it’s just not safe. And the 11 inches of snow they got about a week ago, still present at 9000 feet, have forced them all downward to a lower elevation habitat. I could hear you saying, “Stay safe”, in my head…thanks, JDA.

    And I loved your answers to Jenny’s 6 Questions on her blog. Thank you for sharing your awesome Chase journey with us.

    • You are welcome and YES _ TRY to STAY SAFE!!! Sounds like you had the Adrenalin flowing at max. Momma’s and cubs can be testy. So glad you are safe. JDA

  15. I was reading and thinking today. This is complete conjecture, but I wonder if there are two chests: one called Indulgence, and one named for the opposite of indulgence? One is a valuable chest, filled with very valuable things. The other could be a simple chest or box filled with “treasures bold”.

    These are treasures valuable to Forrest alone. Like “rosebud” they have special meaning to him, though to us they may not seem too valuable at all. The $2.00 bill he mentions still having after many years could be one of these special treasures. And I’d be willing to bet that the medal for gallantry the South Vietnamese awarded him is in this box as a “treasure bold” also. It is dear and precious to Forrest.

    Now, one of the “treasure chests” is full of “riches” new and old and is very valuable (to us). Gold nuggets, jewels, cash, etc. But the other treasure chest is full of riches new and old important only to Forrest himself. They are the most valuable of his possessions, and he would never part with them.

    One of these “treasures bold” is in the wrong chest. It is a silver bracelet and it belongs in the other chest. It is extremely valuable to Forrest and he would like it back if this chest is found, so he can put it back in the right chest with his other treasures bold.

    This may be the key. To discover where the treasures we are looking for are located, we need first to identify what Forrest considers to be the real treasures— and these treasures will lead us to the location of the chest we want to find. There may he 9 items. I think one of them is the bracelet, and another is the South Vietnamese medal.

    Again, this is simply conjecture coming from the mind of a very disturbed individual. I am insane. Billy Barty’s ghost visits me. I wear different colored socks. But I’m going to find that treasure— it’s beaconing, I mean, beckoning to me. lol.

  16. To add to my thought from yesterday. Scrapbook#146 has 3 ducks in it, 3″ tall, $3.00 a piece. The man told Forrest “you buy them in sets”.

    Now, if their are (9) “treasures hold” it’s possible that 3 come from childhood, 3 from mid-life, and 3 from old age? Each duck may represent one part of life. Remember, one of the ducks walks more slowly than the others.

    Childhood “treasures” could get his first Arrowhead, a favorite toy, etc. War time could be the South Vietnamese medal, schrapnel, etc. and old age could be a wig (from chemotherapy times), or possibly a copy of the poem itself is one of the “treasures bold”.

    I know my take on the poem is a bit different. But wanted to share if anyone else might be thinking in this direction. The 9 clues may be things rather than places. Things that represent the very best and worst in life. Some “treasures” might inspire sadness or pain— but they are still treasures right?

    • Sparrow,

      If I remember correctly F said somewhere that geography and imagination is needed to solve the poem. With due respect, thinking the 9 clues are about objects is not conducive to what F meant and to what the poem says.

      IMO the map to the treasure is described in the poem. The poem puts one in geographical place, that leads one to another geographical place, etc.


      • Charlie—

        Oh yes— geographical knowledge will be needed. I may not have been explaining myself too well. To give an example. The first clue as Forrest stated is “begin it where warm water halt”. But without the first stanza and what’s hidden there that connects with that sentence the clue doesn’t make complete sense. There is a geographical aspect and a “thing” in the same clue. May sound confusing, but it makes sense when you see it.

        • Forest is very adamant that the first clue is WWWH and that there are 9 clues total. This is probably because the Blaze that he built (architected) reflects these elements…. 9 clues with a symbol of WWWH as the first. He can’t change the blaze without going there physically, so he is stuck with the challenge of affirming to his public that there are 9 clues and WWWH is the first.

          • IMO, the blaze was not built, F said that the treasure is not associated to any man made structures.

            However that the blaze could be marked on a tree or rock, etc. The blaze could be natural as it may stand the test of time.

            IMO the blaze could be a lot of things.

          • CharlieM: Forrest’s blaze almost certainly cannot be a mark on a tree given the potential longevity he has proposed for the chest staying in hiding. When Forrest said he thought of everything, certainly forest fires would be one of his first thoughts. Even under the best of circumstances, what tree is going to last a thousand, ten thousand years (figures that Forrest has thrown out)? I think people are too restrictive in their thinking on what the blaze might be. A blaze can be anything that stands out.

          • Zap;

            I know that there are not many who will agree with me, and that is OK. It is my belief that there is one very large Blaze that will draw you to the general area to be searched. A second, somewhat smaller, yet more spectacular blaze will keep you looking. Finally, I expect to find three rather small blazes that will lead me to EXACTLY where Indulgence is located.

            All five of these blazes (Two found, three yet to be located) {But I know EXACTLY where they are to be found}
            all have something in common and are the KEY to finding Indulgence.

            I sure hope my team can make one last search before the snow flies – JDA

          • zaphod,

            I digress on trees,


            F, doesn’t say blazes in the poem, IMO F meant one. :o)

          • I agree Charlie M, Forrest does NOT say blazes, but he does say,”Read the book just normally … the poem and the rest of the book, and then go back and read the poem 6, 8, 10 times – study every line, every word”

            He then says,”“Here is what I would do. Read my book in a normal manner. Then read the poem over and over and over, slowly – thinking”

            He also says, ““If you don’t know where it is, go back to the first clue.” f

            Why must we read it 6, 8, 10 times – or read it over and over and over again?
            And why does he tell us to go back to Clue #1?

            There has to be a reason. To me he is telling me that it will take more than one trip through the poem in order to find Indulgence.

            Trip one will get you to the general area. Trip two will get you closer, and (If you are lucky and have followed all of the clues precisely) On trip #3 you will find Indulgence.

            That is how I see it anyway – JDA

          • Hi JDA — if we are to analyze the general purpose a blaze serves, it can be reasonably argued that all 9 clues are blazes of a sort, since it seems that each clue is intended to vector you closer to the chest (at least via whatever path Forrest has laid out). By following the clues, each searcher is blazing a trail.

          • Let’s see – nine clues = 9 blazes X 5 = 45.

            I am sure Charlie can do something with that. 🙂 JDA

          • Wait a minute – I don’t need Charlie

            45 = 4 + 5 = 9 so 9 = 9 so Eurika, we found it…If only I can find the 45 blazes – Darn, I thought I was doing good finding 5 – But then again, maybe I don’t need to find 45, just nine – so only 4 more to go – maybe it IS doable after all – 🙂 JDA

          • JDA ~ He also says, ““If you don’t know where it is, go back to the first clue.” f
            Fenn has also answered in a Q&A… If you know what hoB is, why would you be concern with wwwh? { reverse engineering }

            Seems to me that if we are to utilize all 9 or 5 clues/points/locations as any type of blaze[s] and told to go back to clue #1 if we don’t find the chest, then the idea of multiple blazes wouldn’t be the best bet { using your assumption, we would need clue #1} if fenn stated we shouldn’t need to be concern with it if we “know” at least hoB, and possibly any later clue.

            JDA you said~ “All five of these blazes (Two found, three yet to be located) {But I know EXACTLY where they are to be found}”

            Seriously, if that was the case… what the heck are you doing wrong 15 times over? This sound more like a where’s Waldo [ fenn’s blaze[s] ] among many other [ if not hundreds] blazes in your location.
            This idea doesn’t seem to match the thought of “what took me so long?” but more like a game of battleship …> throw something and see what it hits. { lol and all this takes place over a what-?- 16 mile area?}
            I’m truly not trying to be rude… but that is one big hay stack looking for 5 specific hay straws and a needle.

          • Seeker;

            You are probably right. I do have a simpler solve, with less blazes, but the 5 is the L O N G way that I had to tread in order to get where I am today – – – and that MAY be nowhere. I guess we will just have to wait until my search team can make one last search. JDA

          • Holy Blazes JDA, is there something that will tell you which of the 5 is the right one for the TC? The last one you come to on long hike? I suppose if you are hiking 4 miles one way there is a chance of coming across a few maybe several blazes anyway.

          • Seeker. I find that one of each clue is sufficiently challenging. If more than one trip through the poem is required to reach the chest, then Forrest has got me beat for sure.

          • JDA
            Nazed on your comments.
            Perhaps it would be wise to step away from the search for a bit, and rest.
            Don’t worry only your solve will work so no fears of it going anywhere.

          • TomB.
            I think fenn has us all beat… But… I’m not dead-set against folks looking over an area a couple of times. However, if we should be correct in a solution, we shouldn’t need to… in the thought of… “certainty beforehand” and possibly the “planning” part of “thinking, analyzing, plan, and observer” with mostly imagination.

            I honestly don’t think what fenn meant by “planning” was booking a flight, bring extra socks, buy a blowup dingy from Walmart…
            Planning is involved in the solve, as well as observing, somehow. At least that is the way I read into the comments.

          • Seeker. Yes, i’m Of the opinion that a complete solve is possible from home. Study the poem. Solve all of the clues. Then, go with confidence, one trip to search only the blaze/treasure location.

    • Three ducts in a row. One flows lower then the others.Tail “End” Charlie is my fav.
      Imagination at its best Sparrow. Keep at it. 🙂
      I don’t agree that there are two chests but I do agree that “treasure bold” is not Indulgence. As for “riches new and old”, I don’t think he is talking about the treasure at all. I believe what he talks about is what is “present” that marry,s his “past” geographically. All in one small location in a huge area.
      I believe there are mutiple entrance’s to the location but Forrest has chosen the most difficult route to write the poem or so it seems… 🙂
      This is all of-course in my humble opinion .

      • Riches new and old – to me is “knowlege (no d 🙂 ) both New knowlege found and old knowlege gained through experience. Knowlege of today and yesterdayt or yester-year.

        Multiple entrance’s but Forrest has chosen the most difficult route – I do not think so. ; “I said in my book that the solution will be difficult but not impossible. If it was easy anyone could do it. Whoever finds the treasure will mostly earn it with their imagination. I have done only a few things in my life that were truly planned. Hiding the treasure chest is one of them.
        And at the end, the one who finds the gold will not feel lucky, but instead, will ask himself, “What took me so long?” JMHO – JDA

        • To each his own,JDA. ..
          How do you explain “no place for the meek” and “if you are brave and in the wood” yet a child under five years old can walk right to the location of the chest?
          Isnt Knowledge of today and yester-year the same as the past and the present?
          In my opinion Knowlege is not what you think it is. Find that one important clue to analyze and you will know. You might have to use that word that is key if you can find it… 🙂
          Safe travels..

          • ONUAT

            This is my opinion. Others may differ.

            “From there it’s no place for the meek”
            This seems to be an instruction to cross the creek as soon as practical. Meek sheeplike people don’t want to cross, but especially sheep.

            “If you are brave and in the wood”
            As a native scout (or brave) follows signs, he leads the way to the desired new location. The tribes had bent trees, rock markers and other signs they followed.


          • Adding to Franklin’s comment, no place for the meek could be crossing a stream or creek or river. The meek may not cross, the brave would. IMO

          • Onuat;

            Not to argue, but when did Forrest ever say that a child under five can walk right to the location of the chest? He did say “:Bloggers have quoted me as saying that a child could walk up to the treasure. I don’t think that’s an accurate quote because a three year old girl would have a problem without some help. Remember, I was about 80 when I hid the chest, and had to make two trips”.f

            To me, “No place for the meek” and “If you are brave…” have absolutely nothing to do with the search being dangerous or perilous, and as I quoted above, Forrest said that, with assistance a three year old could walk to the treasure..

            If you are going to try to quote Forrest, get your facts straight please, and do not try to read more into poem lines than is there.

            Forrest has repeatedly said, “It is not in a dangerous place.” JMO JDA

          • JD, I really don’t want to argue with you because I do enjoy your posts even though I don’t don’t agree with most. I wasn’t quoting Forrest at all,I was merely asking if a child would be able to walk that area without assistance ,doesn’t matter whether they are 5 or 3… That’s all.

        • JDA, others, do you think that “As I have gone alone in there” means he WENT ALONE and/or
          WAS ALONE in there? I sense that he went alone, but there were other people there, it was a somewhat public place. Thats the only way I can make sense of “i can hint”. The other option is that the narrator, I, is not ff.

          • “Two men can keep a secret if one of them is dead” – I think it is simply saying he went alone to hide it. I don’t think anyone else was there when he hid it “in there”. IMO

          • So Covert, you think stanza 1 is simply announcing that he hid the TC, and had to do it alone. My senses is that he is saying something more than that in those 4 lines.

          • OS2

            To me (and what do I know? – NADA) “As I went along in there…” is a statement and a warning. I (Forrest Fenn) went alone into a special place to secret Indulgence – You too must be alone, or at least not be observed.

            That is one interpretation. I think that there is another interpretation that relates more to “time” than to a physical location – But that is another story.

            A third interpretation is: Once Forrest secreted Indulgence, he could “hint” of the riches that are contained in the chest – new and old. He could also hint of the knowledge that he has – both new and old that relate to the place that Indulgence is secreted – AND he can hint of the memories that he has of this place – some going back to childhood, and some newer. JMO – JDA

          • OS2 – the part of “gone alone in there” is what I mentioned above. I didn’t say anything about the other lines.

          • JD said: “You too must be alone, or at least not be observed.”

            Can you elaborate on this please JD?

          • I am not sure how to elaborate. If you are about to find Indulgence – You would not want to be seen, I wouldn’t think. Would
            be a shame to go to all of the effort to find it, and then to have it taken away from you at the last minute. JDA

          • Just a note. “I went to the museum today”. “Oh yeah? Who’d you go with?” “Oh, I went by myself”.

            It’s very possible to “go alone” into a place with a lot of other people present. In fact, I’ve wondered a few times if Forrest IS talking about a museum when he says “As I have gone alone IN there”.

            I do think it quite likely Forrest was alone (in the true sense of the word) when he hid the chest though.

          • Dal—
            I mistakenly typed sparrowge as the author of a post below. It went into moderation but wanted you to know it did come from me.

          • OS2, I am of the opinion that when he says As I have gone alone in there, he is talking about previous trips that he has made “in there”. The last trip “in there” was with his treasures bold. I think this because of the way he separated the statement with “and”. Just an opinion.

          • In order to make my above post a bit clearer – perhaps – To me, “AS” – As I went alone in there…”
            = “Since” I went alone in there…
            So, Since I (Forrest ) went alone in there, so should you – or at least not be observed. JDA

          • Not yet awake I guess. I misquoted the line – “As (Since) I have gone alone in there…”(sic) JDA

          • Hi OS2.

            I have a theory of this “hint”….but unfortunately, I think it is a pretty good one which also breaks open the poem – into a direction that I feel would eventually lead someone to the area I am searching. I do not believe it is the key word that is sought after so frequently.

            I don’t want others in the area quite yet. Although I have recently been thinking of enlisting and open team with open an open cut to the chest and contents, because I think more people looking in an area can so I inate a place faster.

            But IMO – stanza one it just one key within the poem that directs a person to a larger region to search.

            Once in that region, the poem’s clues take over and becomes another map within. Macro to micro viewing.

            It sounds clever and very ingenuitive moving from a macro look to micro one (i.e. GE to BOTG is a great example). Even then, and you probably have noticed, the poem seems to move from a larger area (“I go in there alone”) to a smaller area (Indulgence’s final lication is only 10″x10″).

            So, in essence, we all can see the construction of the poem has been done in various forms, and therefore, was done over various years of design and planning, and probably meaningful thought was applied at each step, or more precisely, for each NOUN.

            The poem is the main tool to use.

            …but always try to see if you can think of yourself as the designer when reviewing it.

            Good luck to you.

          • I believe he did go it alone, just like he was alone in the frenchman’s graveyard.
            He has also stated somewhere? That if we dud bring someone, leave them in the car…why? As a lookout ready to drive the getaway car or to warn you someone is coming??? Dunno, while for safety”s sake, a hiking partner is best.

        • Know=To distinguish; as, to know one man from another. We know a fixed star from a planet by its twinkling.
          LEGE, verb transitive To allege; to lighten. [Not in use.]
          Pretty interesting, inmyop

      • Hi Onuat and Sparrow too…

        I like thinking that “multiple creeks” flowing into one river may be one possible, yet very clever, comparison to the phrase “three ducks in a row.”


      • I take riches new and old to mean the many years old objects to recent objects in not so many years old. We all know that the contents fall within that range.


  17. If you are experiencing several error messages while attempting to access the blog it is most likely being caused, once again, by a swarm of attempted break-ins. These robo attacks on the blog eat up all the entryways so that when you or I try to connect we are refused access and generally handed a database error message.

    As mentioned before when this happened. There is no private info kept on the blog. Users are not in any danger of sharing anything more than their email address with hackers if the hackers were lucky enough to break in. So far they have been repelled at the door. That does not stop them from trying in robo bursts that can pound away at the door for significant periods of time.

    Why do they do this? Perhaps because it’s fun for them to disrupt blog activity or perhaps because they think they will gain access to Forrest’s secret solution stored away in some hidden folder filed deep in the gut of our server. Trust me! If that’s what they believe, they are delusional. There is no hidden solution here. Goofy and I would love it if there was…but alas…there is none.

    Please understand that after a couple days of swarming here things should return to normal as the attempted hackers turn their attention toward some other target.

      • Dang, JDA,

        Why doesn’t some ‘reply’ functions appear under the post one wants to directly respond to? (You asked, identified “by whom?”)

        Anyway, I just haven’t come to terms about “going alone in there” as being The Flyer.

        There’s a method to my madness that few can even begin to understand.

        pdenver being at the top of the list. (So patient and kind) – Not to say, so very wise!


        • SL;

          As you have probably picked up, I think that there are multiple layers to the poem, or that one needs to go through the poem multiple times to move from one “General solve” to the next until you are at the “Correct solve.”

          That being said, maybe one reading of the poem “I” is Forrest. Another reading the “I” might be something different – even a glacier –
          One trip may relate to “place” whereas another might relate to “time”. who knows?

          One trip may be Forrest as a youth, the next, as an old man.

          To me, one needs to “listen to the poem” “IT” will tell you how “IT” needs to be interpreted.

          Yes I know, you have a padded cell waiting for me with this funny jacket, whose arms are tied in the back 🙂 Take care and TRY to STAY SAFE – JDA

    • Thanks Dal,

      I was so frustrated last night with “can not connect to the database”, I went to bed. Knowing full and well the problem is being attended to.

      Thanks again ;o)

    • I’ve had a few connection issues in the last day or so – just like the chase….just have to keep trying!

    • Wow, that is berry interesting. Did you notice the gold placer like piece mounted on the top?,
      So, a metal detector could bleep on it, pretty cool, and that wood looks like the trail .market signs and FF’s dining table lol

  18. I wonder if my instincts might be correct in regards to how I am interpreting the words,( or a lack of ‘some’), as to what I’m reading on the cover of The Flyers third memoir, ‘Once Upon a While.’

    Time will tell, I suppose.


  19. Not a newbie but have a question for everyone as I start over yet again. In TTOTC, Mr. Fenn states “It’s in the mountains somewhere north of Santa Fe.” Outside of his release of Clue 13 that it’s not in Idaho or Utah, can someone point me to where he actually says it’s in the Rocky Mountains as opposed to simply “in the mountains”? Otherwise, isn’t it open to ANY mountains north of Santa Fe?

    • As you’re starting over again, MT, you may not yet know about a relatively new (and excellent) resource.

      Go to


      and type “rocky mountain” in the search field. You’ll find several direct ff quotes confirming ” . . . in the Rocky Mountains.”

      Here’s a good example from a July 2016 interview that confirms TWO things:

      “Well it’s buried more than eight and a half miles north of Santa Fe in the Rocky Mountains but below the Canadian border.” ff


      • JAKe,

        If you are referring to the 7/6/16 interview I do not see where he says a thing about it being buried.

        “(1:35) Fenn: I hid the treasure chest more than 8.25 miles north of Santa Fe in the Rocky Mountains some place. Nobody knows but me.”

        I suspect the error was unintentional but we all need to be very careful when quoting f. To be sure I get it right I always copy and paste the quote to avoid messing it up somehow.


        • Thanks for fact-checking, Pinatubo. I appreciate your concern and your request for confirmation, and I agree with you 100% about care and accuracy in quoting.

          I only use quotation marks for actual quotes. But we all make mistakes, so I went back and triple-checked. It’s from a 7/17/16 interview on the Rudy Maxa Travel Show:

          (1:57) FENN: “Well it’s buried more than eight and a half miles north of Santa Fe in the Rocky Mountains but below the Canadian border.”


          • “Buried” makes sense to me, although not in the traditional way of covering with soil. I believe the chest is below ground and covered by a stone.

          • Yeah, I’m not sure the quote really confirms “buried.” (In answering MT’s original question re the Rockies, I was thinking more than 8 miles north of Santa Fe as the second thing confirmed).

            “Buried” is a word that comes readily to mind in relation to “treasure”, and ff was answering (via phone) the interviewer’s question “Is the treasure buried in New Mexico?”

            Just as likely he was just subconsciously echoing the question’s phrasing in answering it. His off-the-cuff interviews aren’t congressional hearings, with his lawyer bending over every 2 minutes to whisper in his ear. 😉


    • MT,

      In F’s book TFTW he has illustrated in the map the boundaries of the Rocky Mountains highlighted from NM, CO, WY and MT. Any mountain in that range qualifies.

  20. All,

    A couple of random thoughts to consider:

    1) Regarding FF comment about 2 men can keep a secret if one of them is dead = what if FF is talking about his younger self and his older self? One could make the trip to Indulgence, and the other no longer can, so is essentially (or poetically) dead…

    2) Regarding word definition = Warm can also be defined as “violent”, “furious”, and “vigorous” so WWWH may be where choppy/fast moving waters turn into calmer waters (I think I commented on this before somewhere). This certainly can hold water (pun intended) in light of what is easier for a child to ascertain, the approximate temperature of a given body of water, or the approximate spot in said water where it calms down? Granted, this is limiting the answer to WWWH to a simple visual observation, but no special equipment is needed other than eyesight. I know, I know, someone will comment that the child could stick their toe in the water and get an approximate temperature, and keep doing so until you get what/where they think the temperature defined WWWH location is, but perhaps sometimes we need a KISS (Keep It Simple Stupid) moment. This definition of warm may be one of those types of moments. Visualizing something seems to be more in tune with the big picture/imaginative interpretation of the poem FF has commented on rather than having to worry about boiling/freezing temperatures, etc.


    • What if you were suppose to take something from that line. What if standing that thing upright,(alive), cast a shadow, (dead), like Indiana Jones in the map room. We should have buried Skippy standing up.

        • I’m afraid you’ve lost me with your comments, Charlie. Perhaps you were trying to comment on a different posting within this category?

          • two people can keep a secret if one of them is dead.
            “people” can (can= get rid of),
            keep (keep=keep) a.
            Two a secret if one of them is dead. “”a” happens to be = to 7, in my opinion. So, two 7 secret if one of them is dead.
            Knowledge= know lege. Lege short for legend, or Skippy. If you Skip “p” you’re left with “Y”.
            Legend is also leg end or foot. “Y” imo, = 7. So, “Y” =7′.
            We should have buried him standing up. At the coordinates, stand up this “Y” stick, which is 7′ tall. (standing = alive) the shadow it makes,(dead), is a certain distance. Two people can keep a secret if one of them is dead.

  21. Bow, it is all my opinion, but it doesn’t waiver from the all important fact, “solve the poem”. I’m not saying I’m right, wrong, or whatever, just trying to show you there are ways to “solve the poem”.Really, trying to help, not discourage. If you post something where it is an attempt on solving the poem and finding info with that, I’m all up to hear about it.
    To tell you the truth, I don’t particularly like my solve, but it is a way to solve the poem, and the results are perfect. In the end, if I was to post a solve, you cannot really say that it is wrong or right.( unless I had the chest). That’s what I’m trying to say for you, whatever it is, find a way to solve the poem, you will be better off with the poem solved. Sooner or later you will see, they always do.:)

  22. As part of prep for a botg search, i may be over thinking the bears, snakes, snow and even flash floods. Diffrent times of the year have way diffrent risks. As a ricochet thought, does anyone have a feel for what time of year ff hid the chest? Whether a month or even spring summer or fall?

    • Hi SmokyBaer: Forrest has said he hid the chest in summer, which I think most likely means June, July or August (as opposed to the strict astronomical definition of summer from the summer solstice in late June to the autumnal equinox in late September).

      • Thanks Zap, JDA.
        Summer works. The bears will not be as cranky and the snow will have melted of a bit.

    • In the reply to some Middle School kids questions (Type in Middle School in the search box below Dal’s pic) Forrest answered “summer” – Most agree June, July and August = Summer – Some say July, August and September. If you Google it you get: Summer 2017 in Northern Hemisphere began on Tuesday, June 20 and ended on Friday, September 22 – Hope this helps – JDA P.S. Forrest’s birthday is August 22 – Some think he his it on his birthday – Happy Birthday!!! JDA

  23. TimZoso… Liked your Oct 2 comments on “hint”, agree fully with several thoughts: stanza 1 is just one key…, moving from macro to micro…, poem was the main tool…., & especially– think of yourself as the designer. Disagree with ‘various forms’, but thats minor.
    An interpretation I once liked: his memory of being hip deep in there’s waters with a friend down river. deciding this would be his RIP place, & later hinting to friend about the one that got away. It was logical, but not definable, so, no cigar.

    • Thank you, SL. Can’t wait to read it! I had to giggle after hearing what Mr. Bruno had to say about holding on to Mr. Fenn’s words for potential clues (paraphrasing).

    • Wait! Whaaat?!
      This meek woman wants to risk her live and money and time to go into the wilderness and enjoy a personal solo-soul searching/exploring experience… Are ya kidding me? We should have laws to stop these insane folks and protected them for their foolish personal dangerous ideas. How did women even get to vote, thinking they can do want a man can do…?

      And the boyfriend needs to get a spine…

      Disclaimer; This is a non-paid sarcastic response with humor intended… the blog owner does not necessarily endorse said post. And I sure don’t want to get DG mad at me… Anyone that can train a wild, ferocious chipmunk is Bada$$… in my book…lol

    • I think any ill intentioned male out in the woods had better give that girl a WIDE berth! Nice article Dal

    • Dal,

      Interesting article..IMO, man or woman going solo, there is no difference. Experience, before going solo

      No one should control a reasonable thinking person.


    • Great, now all women are going to want there own form of a “charly”. Siggghhh, my work is never done.

    • Dal – Even though I recently went “alone in there”, to get past my fear of the grizzlies, and to attempt to finally reach my spot, I still shared the Google Earth file and specifics of my search and ETA with a close male friend back home. He encouraged me to go, but he did admit later he was worried, after the fact. Probably because he and I watched “The Revenant” together.

      But I guess I tend to take risks, even with where I choose to stay in Montana:


      • Dal – I posted this link from Outside Magazine about a recent tragic event in the Madison Range to warn searchers of the “heavy loads and water high” at 10,000 feet in my particular search area. I always think with appreciation about the Search-and-Rescue folks and all they do to make all of our adventures Into the wilderness possible. And I do everything I can to be cautious and educated and prepared, so I will not need them. Sadly, sometimes Mother Nature controls our fates, despite extensive experience or having perceived safety in numbers.

        • I just read about this story last night, Lisa. It was truly heartbreaking.

          I don’t think people should be searching during the winter months at all, but for what it’s worth, at least Colorado has an excellent resource on potential avalanche danger in the Rockies here: http://avalanche.state.co.us/

          A quick Google search brings up similar websites for other states and regions in the search area. If you do go into the mountains for treasure-hunting or any other reason during the winter, be avalanche aware!

          • Blex – Thank you for your input and that excellent link. We also have an excellent resource here in Sun Valley, ID for reporting potential avalanche conditions, which our community of backcountry skiers use extensive ly. I prefer to hike my local, lower elevation trails in Winter, though. Especially because I know the grizzlies in and around West Yellowstone often come out of their dens during hiberation…

          • Blex –

            We shouldn’t be talking about tragedy again as relates to this search. There is no danger in walking to Fenn’s treasure. There IS danger in climbing mountains and fording rivers and rafting and all the other dumb things people do whether or not they are “chasing”.

            An 80 year old man recovering from cancer treatment parked his sedan and attempted to carry a 40 pound treasure to a hiding spot not far away. He found the treasure to be TOO HEAVY and made two trips. He made the two trips from his sedan to the hiding spot in one afternoon.

            If that treasure is at 10k feet or the chasers needs to gain more than a couple hundred feet pf altitude, I will EAT my hat.


            They may be bears.
            That is all.

          • Lug – Here we go again. I though that with the departing of Jake, that we were past the hat-eating phase of the chase.

            If I am correct, you might be surprised. I suspect that it IS close to 10,000′ and that you have to ascend close to 2,000′ in elevation from the car to Indulgence.

            We shall see. IF I am correct, I will NOT hold you to your hat-eating claim. JDA

          • JD –

            My word!
            Fenn ascended 2000 feet?
            Descended 2000 feet?
            Ascended 2000 feet?
            Descended 2000 feet?
            In less than 4 hours?

            My friend Mark runs on mountains. He’s like 30 and does it for a living. I will have to ask hi if he could accomplish this feet?

            Get it, feet?


          • Lugnutz – I can see by your profile picture that you have a very nice hat. It will be a shame to lose it.

            It is only 500 feet in elevation gain and a four mile maximum one way trip to my spot. The return is all downhill. I can easily make two trips in several hours in one afternoon. It stays light in West Yellowstone until about 9-10 p.m. In the Summer months when Forest said he can get the bronze chest.

          • Hi Lisa –

            I do appreciate that people want to think of Fenn as strong. He’s a veteran after all. An outdoors man.

            I am in Chicago. Out my window I see the Sears Tower. #foreversearstower
            The building is about 1000 feet tall. I look a that building and figure how far away I would need to be in order to hike to the top. The answer is, further than there is time for.

            In my opinion

          • Lisa –

            Correct and that would make 8 hours if Fenn at 80 was in the same shape as you. He was not. And you have half that time or maybe a little more than half.

            I am tying to focus chasers on the job at hand as opposed to the fantasy.


          • Lug – “In less than 4 hours.” Where do you get that number. Forrest said that he hid it during “Summer”. I just looked up sunset times in Wyoming, and the sunsets around 7:00 PM – So that leaves 7 hours from 12:01 -7:00 PM. I expected better of you lug. JDA

          • JD –

            Have you ever in your life used the term “in an afternoon” to describe a 7 hour period of time. No way. You are deep into evening at some point.

            But I am not just considering that “an afternoon” can mean 4 to 8 hours. I am also considering that he was 80 and hiking off trail etc. etc. etc.

            In my opinion it’s pure fantasy to think that Fenn hiked 3 miles, gained 1000 feet, worked at altitude or spent more than an hour away form his sedan. Unless he had a horse. If he had a horse than these things are possible.


          • In September sunsets close to 8:00 – so twice the length of time you said was available. Just sayin’ JDA

          • Hey JD –

            Also I recall a story where Fenn was back before dinner. Wife Peggy asked him where he was and he said hiding the treasure. She remarked that she didn’t realize he was gone. I don’t think I made all that up in my head but I do not know the source.

            Any clue?

            Forrest – fell free to weigh in on this.

          • Lockdown when dinner was.
            Did Fenn actually say his house in SF?
            If they’re visiting somewhere, the same context could apply.

          • W.R. –

            Hold on partner.
            I cannot source this at all. I recall hearing that story and I asked the same questions. My recollection is that Fenn said “back” and not “home”.

            If it’s all just in my head it does not matter.

            Anywho, I am just trying to explain to JD that Fenn didn’t hike very fare. Zap just provided a great quote.


          • Lugnutz
            I concur. Just putting out there, in my lol cryptic way, for those that assume he returned to his home in SF by dinner time to consider the unthinkable. He returned to someone else’s house before dinner.

            An afternoon is no longer than 4-5 hours imo.
            We don’t know if it took him 10minutes or all the time range.
            Did he take two trips carrying a Pic-a-nic basket with his horde inside and sat by a stream in plain view of people and they were clueless or a backpack into the unknown out of sight.
            Time will tell

          • Lug;

            Again, you are putting things into the equation that are not proven. where did Forrest say that the entire trek was not on a trail? To me, it is logical that at some point (Likely a very short stent) Forrest did go off-trail, but it is even more likely that he was on a trail for the majority of his hike, and “bushwhacked” only a very short distance.

            If Forrest had “Prepared” the site beforehand, very little time would have been spent in the actual “secreting” of indulgence, I am guessing 1/2 to 3/4 hour at most.

            Sure, this is ALL supposition, but I certainly see it as “do-able” – JDA

          • Lug;

            One last comment. It doesn’t matter whether I “Have you ever in your life used the term “in an afternoon” to describe a 7 hour period of time. ” What matters is did Forrest use the phrase “in an afternoon” to describe a 7 or 8 hour period from 12:00 PM until he got back from secreting Indulgence – be that 6:00. 7:00 or 8:00. It matters, not one little bit, what “rules” we try to interject, all that matters is what Forrest did, and we have to be smart enough to figure that out, without interjecting our personal biases. JDA

          • Lisa –

            I am as dense as the lake fog.
            Can you just tell me what you would like me to glean from Fenn’s adventure at 16?


          • Lugnutz – My spot is 3 to 4 miles in on a trail with 500 FT elevation gain in the same terrain. I thought you would be able to see the comparison.

          • Interesting, so the 6mile gaining 3000ft in 7hr trip at 16, wouldn’t be the takeaway?
            I understand it cant really equate to the same of all areas, but we can make an educated guess and analyze this. the math for 2 round trips would be thats 1.5 miles in 1:45 and the rise of 1500ft.
            Sure the 4ft path could have added lots of tinme and several hundred incline at one time, but we don’t know.
            So does something like this sound plausible for a 80yr carrying 21lbs one way when a 16yo with gishing gear and a few Dr Peppers took so long?
            My guess, is even if we removed the 1500 rise to just 500ft, I don’t see the time going down very much. So the distance would need to be reduced, imo. But do whatever.

          • Everyone’s making decent points here regarding how far one must hike to reach the hidey spot. It’s true that I have been guilty in the past of hiking to spots that I believe in hindsight were clearly NOT 80-year-old-man-friendly (Is EYOMF another good acronym to use on this blog? Sure, why not?)

            I’ve tried to be mindful when I am doing BOTG searches that my path remains EYOMF, but here’s the stumbling block I always run into when I try to gauge difficulty: Forrest was an 80-year-old man who KNEW EXACTLY WHERE HE WAS GOING.

            I would guess that the rest of us take longer, meandering routes because we (or at least a good number of us) don’t know EXACTLY where we are going – we’re searching and looking around as we go in typically unfamiliar terrain that is new to us. I know I have often gotten to the top of a ridge or across a waterway, only to have discovered that there was a much easier way to get to that point than the path I chose. It really muddies the waters for me in gauging what may or may be an EYOMF location.
            Just my two cents.

          • Blaex – I also believe that Forrest knew exactly where he was going when he hid the bronze chest. I invite everyone to read the Looking for Lewis and Clark story again, about when he and Donnie went into the Cabin Creek drainage and surrounding areas on horseback when they were 16. Too funny that you used the term, “muddy the waters”. One of the pictures shows Donny on a horse standing in a very muddy creek after a storm. I believe home of brown could be a colloquialism referring to challenging fly fishing conditions like these:


          • Blex – What you wrote exactly:

            ” It really muddies the waters for me in gauging what may or may be an EYOMF location”

            Even funnier is that in that picture is the gauge used by the folks at the Hebgen Dam to measure the stream flow levels of the Madison River, where it meets Cabin Creek.

          • Lisa, that was very perceptive of you to pick up on all of the clever subtleties that I embedded in my comment! Bravo! 🙂

            *Blex slinks away guiltily after having taken credit for something he darn well knows he didn’t intentionally do.*

          • W.R. wrote:

            “My guess, is even if we removed the 1500 rise to just 500ft, I don’t see the time going down very much. So the distance would need to be reduced, imo.”

            I have to strongly disagree with this statement. Another 1,000 feet of elevation gain added to a common horizontal travel distance (say 1 mile) makes a significant difference on a graded trail and a HUGE difference when travelling off-trail completely. Depending on the uniformity of the grade, I would estimate that adding 1,000 extra feet to a hike would add on about 30-60 minutes to a one-way off-trail trip for a hiker of average physical ability.

            Sorry if it seems like I’m pouncing on this, but I think this is important stuff to point out for people who are planning out their BOTG trips. Elevation gain is just as important a consideration as horizontal travel distance, IMO.

          • Blex,
            Thanks for the feedback and will keep an open mind.
            Typing this will be crude and left this part out from the above.
            I see this as a possible graph age, distance and time, distance. Young in age further distance with time. older in age (with 21lbs) and further time with distance the same.
            Is there some kind of correlation is possible with this? Yes there’s some fit people, but its Forrest as the subject though.
            So I excluded this crude thought and left for the question of a 16yo vs 80yo.
            If a 16yo takes 1.5hrs up 1500ft, how long would it take an 80yo Thor to do It?
            2, 3hr?
            So if I wanted to fix my time at 1.5hours, wouldn’t the elevation need to be less?
            By how much I’m clueless and speculating.

            My take away is that a young Forrest couldn’t do it in an afternoon. So something has to give. What that is is either elevation or distance.

            This topic was revolving around JDA 2000ft elevation and his adternoon extending into the 8hr range assumptions. So here is a story that could fit this assumption and actually debunk it. Now JDA doesn’t give if there is another route or other details that coukd add a better comparison, so it is what it is, so I’m taking away that a 1500, ft elevation is out of the picture.

            Without knowing the specific terrain it’s all speculation, the path could be a switchback trail and that could help, there’s just so many possibilities. How else would be best to estimate 500ft from a pullover to a miles long trails for two trips in an afternoon? For me it’s time, beyween 5hrs adternoon/4 =1:15max time, to 15minute short time.
            Now the question is how much ground can be covered between these two points.

          • And another take away coukd be the not far, but too far to walk.
            6miles isn’t far, but is if you want to find the treasure in a day. Of course 25miles isn’t far either, but too far to walk… ???

          • Blex and W.R. – This is a good exercise. Pun intended. While hiking my favorite Chocolate Gulch Trail at a slow, meditative pace this past Wednesday, my GoogleFit program recorded a pace of 25 minutes per mile. The elevation gain to the top is only 700 ft. The program recorded that I did 3.31 miles in 1hr and 23 minutes. That is roughly the distance out to my spot at a the similar elevation gain and similar altitude. Even with stopping to eat a sandwich, I could do the out and back twice at the same place in 6 hours.


          • LIsa –

            I think this is a case of confirmation bias.
            You seem to be going out of your way to prove that it could be done. Now, I will conceded that it can be done. You can clearly make that hike twice in 6 hours.

            Is this what you think Forrest did? Hike for an hour and half?
            6 hours like noon to six pm.

            He didn’t have to say anything about this. He chose to because he wanted folks to stop hiking to remote dangerous places. He also refined his statement subsequently and Zap posted the quote yesterday.

            Forrest’s own advice: “If you can’t make two trips from your car to your solve in several hours, then don’t go.” And “A polite-like email from Kristie, who admits to being a desk person, prompts me to say that if you are walking long distances in search of the treasure, you’re walking too far.”

          • Lug,
            I think Lisa is showing in 25 minutes one can do a mile by going slow.
            Math would be 1 round trip ballpark it at 50minutes, leaves 20 minutes to “hide” the chest to go past 2hours, since several is more than 2. This would be the short distance.
            Double the time doesn’t mean double the distance. But for simplicity I will. We then get 4hours for walking and hiding in 2 miles.
            If we created similar estimates for trails that are: Easy, Medium, Hard we can have some kind of idea of the max distance so if a hard trail is 1mile, and you go 2, you went too far.
            So it can help with building budget times in an area and you’re able to cover more locations knowing a preset distance not to exceed.
            Of course the blaze could always be just over the next rise, but logically it doesn’t match what Fenn says.
            Though Fenn says don’t go where an 80yo wouldn’t go, keep in mind he was probably 73 when he hid it, based on a comment he made that puts the math date in 2003, or he did a dry run with another object to his place then to see if it could be stumbled upon before hiding the chest.

          • Lugnutz – Thank you for reprinting Forrest’s quote.to support my point. I can clearly at a slow pace to make two trips to my spot in several hours, stopping for at least 20 minutes on each of those round trips. The maximum total would be 6 hours in one afternoon. Case closed.

          • The other takeaway is Lisa saw an elevation hint and I saw a distance hint in the story she referenced.
            We see what we think we see to help us and it could be just a reminisce of Fenn with no other objective.
            Logically the assumptions are sound, but may not be enough.
            Don’t read too much into the scrapbooks, as they aren’t part of his reading requirements. But could be insightful as to who Fenn is, if true.
            I tend to believe his wife, when she said she barely knows who he is after all these years…

          • Lisa –

            Good luck with that lengthy search.

            I think the treasure will be within a half mile of where I park. That’s 2 miles total walking. As I have said I do not believe he/you/I will gain/lose 500 feet. Again that’s 2000 feet total for the 4 trips.

            It sounds like you are out in the woods often just like I am. I have a challenge for you. I have more than 10 of these out there. Turn and walk 500 feet or so off trail. Place a peanut butter jar on the ground with money in it and leave you number. No one will ever find your jar or call you. Go back a year late to make sure. pick up your jar and more it to a new spot. That’s my challenge and my promise. No one ever walks off trail. I am exaggerating, but it holds most o the time in most places. My jar contents include a pair of lug nuts.

            Just like his father, Forrest Fenn turned off from a trail. He placed his treasure on the ground behind a tree or a rock. No one ever found his familiy treasure and no one has found his.

            Everyone that has gotten close walks too far. Everyone makes this an epic journey. He says things like, you’ll slap your forehead and go Gosh O Jolly when you find it.

            This is my opinion developed from years of listening to Fenn. From years of getting to know hi through his writing.


          • Hi W.R.: In your calculation of potential travel distances, you made a logic error in assuming Forrest said anything about minimum distance. He has placed no such limit. The chest could be just a few hundred feet from where he parked. From a safety standpoint, Forrest doesn’t care if you aren’t walking far enough; he cares if you’re walking too far.

            An honest, unbiased reading of Forrest’s statements would conclude that two round trips that take any longer than ~5 hours is too far. And since Forrest probably didn’t want to tip his hand as to the exact time or distance, he would have to add on some slop to conceal the true time/distance. So I think even 5 hours is too long. I wouldn’t be surprised if it took him less than half that.

            “… keep in mind he was probably 73 when he hid it, based on a comment he made that puts the math date in 2003”

            Preston saw the treasure chest long after 2003. I think it’s almost a certainty that Forrest hid the chest in the summer of 2010. I even have a decent poem-derived theory as to the exact date he hid it.

          • Zap
            not really. In a prior comment I stated it could 500 ft from the parking spot. I even said he could have hid it in a picnic basket and hid it in plain sight of people. I’m more concerned with a max distance than a min, if I don’t see my blaze by then, then it’s useless.

            Also quote everything someone says, if you did, you’d see I also said it could be a dry run in 2003.

            Preston never gave a date of seeing it after 2003. In the forward He says, he saw it in 1990… then other times he saw it over the years, finally in 2010 it was gone.
            Do you have anything that points to him or anyone else seeing it past 2003 specifically?

          • Btw, The Codex was released Dec 2003. Can we glean anything from This? Yes Doug’s idea to pitch the movie idea and writing the book was before this date. So The only thing for certain about this is, he didn’t get an inspiration for the story one day after 2003 while viewing the chest. Doesn’t mean the chest was/wasn’t there, just an observation of building a profile of the events.

        • Lug. I am in agreement with you on this. I do not believe Forrest walked very far or gained very much in altitude between his car and the chest.

          • Of course not Tom B –

            If I find the treasure I am going to invite everyone from the blog to come down and walk the route. Everyone will get to experience finding the blaze and then rounding the corner for the treasure. I will call Dal and he can let everyone know.

            Not sure who I should put in charge of security. Maybe Diggin Gypsy. I don’t think anyone messes with DG.


          • Concur. Anyone hiking over 10 miles or gaining over 1000 feet of elevation from car to hiding spot is willfully ignoring Forrest’s own advice: “If you can’t make two trips from your car to your solve in several hours, then don’t go.” And “A polite-like email from Kristie, who admits to being a desk person, prompts me to say that if you are walking long distances in search of the treasure, you’re walking too far.”

          • Zap –

            Couple of nice quotes there. Thanks for the supporting evidence.

            We won’t know ’til someone knows. I have no magic ball. I just don’t see this as being a herculean task. Fenn is not Sisyphus.


          • Thanx for posting those Zap…folks forget, or just disregard if it doesn’t fit their perfect solve.
            Lnutz…you are preaching to the choir, but thanks for keeping it real.

          • Tom B
            while you all talk and whisper I listen and observe each and every thought so it becomes an easy mix and a new ingredient, where I can use and add to mine.

          • Hi Charlie – My take on NFBTFTW is quite different than most other searchers. Kicking that to the side, let us consider a couple of things that may or may not resonate with folks. 1. Forrest has told us that he took two trips because the weight was a factor. 40 pounds might not seem like much to a younger person but even 20 on the back of a 79 or 80 year old man could still be a challenge. 2. Forrest has told some he has back issues. 3. Dealing with elevation in the Rockies can add additional challenges especially as one ages. With these considerations, I think it’s possible to conclude that Forrest probably didn’t hoof it that far from where he parked. Just my observations or IMO as Dal and Goofy prefer.

      • Hope this lands in right spot.

        LugNutz: I have very strong ties to Chicago. A bit more specific – Wicker Park, Wrigleyville and Ukrainian Village. When I was a much younger man and visited Loyola U across from Water Tower, I’d stay with friends right across from the Hancock.

        JDA: I think you are very wise and much of what you’ve posted has sounded reasonable and made sense to me. Just not this time but I have been wrong before – just ask my wife and kids!

        My most recent canyoneer day was a few years ago near Escalante, UT with my grandson. A descent of less than 700 feet done in four rappels (longest about 120 feet) and in between much scramblin’ & hikin’ up, over & around the slickrock. From there, couple miles hike along the dry, sandy canyon floor and squeezing thru a few split-canyon walls to a roost a little above the river. Then a 3-4 mile 700 foot ascent hike back to our Jeep. Up & down with weight of ropes, biners, harness, other gear and day packs with about 20lbs of water, cameras, lunch, 1st aid and older/heavier satellite phone. Five days earlier, we did 9-mile Loop trail in Natural Bridges NM, UT with 600 foot up & down; no rappelling – all hiking and similar daypack weights with a bit more food & water. Both were thrills done in 80-90F heat, but now a few years older, I ache thinkin’ bout them. IMO, the distance and elevation change you see is difficult for me to see ff doing at his age when he hid Indulgence in two trips on one summer afternoon (or after noon). Not far, but too far to walk (or rappel or float). Welcome other suggestions – but need to go watch the Cubbies!

          • Lug, that was a bad example to use.
            “A polite-like email from Kristie, who admits to being a desk person, prompts me to say that if you are walking long distances in search of the treasure, you’re walking too far.”
            This can be taken two ways…
            It’s not far….
            it’s too far…
            So, if you are walking long distances you are walking “too far”, well, that’s what you want to do,
            Walking long distances = too far.
            Not far but “TOO FAR”. We know we don’t have to walk “far”, but it is very reasonable to think that we need to walk “too far”…
            To say. “do you think f would do that”, is also not advisable. It’s not wise to underestimate him. I may think that f wouldn’t do something, but doesn’t make it so. Lisa is not out of the norm suggesting that it’s a long walk. It’s very likely so.
            In the book, when he says things where another meaning can be sparked, he explains himself. Like when he says, paraphrasing, I think it’s funny, not funny because of ….. but funny because I said it that way…etc…(sorry, don’t have the book in front of me). I think you can see what I’m saying. In a lot of his ATF comments, he doesn’t explain his “double-talk”, if you will. He obviously likes the fact that things that he says can be taken in multiple ways, or he would explain better. He knows what he’s doing. Same thing with the two trips thing. Afternoon or after noon?
            So, Lisa, if you are walking long distances, thumbs up, you are walking ‘too far”.:)

          • Charlie –

            I believe this is the first time you have ever addressed me and I lay honored.

            I think you are reading Fenn’s words without context, double meaning or not.

            Have you heard about the time I had dinner at Fenn’s house when I was, I think, 21 years old? I was driving across the country on Route 66 with friends and our parents set us up with places to eat and stay and for emegencies. Right before my dead died of cancer he told me the guy from Sante Fe hid a treasure in the mountains. My dad servived the Korean War and was killed by a cancer no one’s ever heard of. Can yiu believe that? Anyway the man in Sante Fe served us soda pop in ice cold metal cups. Hers what hr said.

            I keep the metal cups in the freezer because it gets real cold and will cool the drink. But unlike an ice cube it won’t dilute the drink.

            He did that with ebverything. Explained why he was dojng something and how it worked. We used to make fun of him for years saying. I tie laces on my shoes so that my shoes will stay on my feet whuch makes walking more sensible and less painful etc.

            Like Fenn i have said what i wanted and i wont edit it. Spelling and punctuation be daamned.


          • Charlie: if you translate “not far, but too far to walk” to mean you not only have to walk far, you have to walk TOO far, then I don’t believe there will be any gold-filled chests in your future. IMO, the right map provides the answer to the riddle of NF, BTFTW, and it ain’t a distance. If you’re in the camp of “an afternoon” can mean 8 or 9 hours in summertime, then in my opinion you are really stretching a tangent.

            I think people will ultimately be shocked by how LITTLE Forrest walked, not how far.

          • In addition to what Zap said,
            That’s at the beginning of the poem not the ending as we were discussing.

          • W.R., that was an example.
            Zap, I was just saying that his ATF comments can be taken in multiple ways. I can’t define what f thinks “too far” or even “far” means to him. That line for me is not a distance. I’m just stating the obvious, what f has said.
            Not far but too far, and then to come out with an ATF comments of “walking long distances is walking “too far”, well, that is what the poem said. Not looking for far, but looking for too far, and there it is in an ATF comment. It’s almost like if he said he was looking at a campfire with marvel gaze. Would then seem to be that a campfire would be around the blaze, right? Not saying it would or wouldn’t, not saying the walk is far or too far, or not at all. Just best to keep note that all are possible. We don’t even know if he walked it or rode a horse, bike, ski lift, whatever. (okay, going off tangent).
            My walk is 5 or so miles. Elevation gain of around 2500′. (Yes, I read your other post on 2000′), it’s very doable. And no, I don’t think he started his walk on or after 12:00p.m. and definitely not two trips from his car within 6 hours or one afternoon. Doesn’t compute, plus, he has had a lot of time to clear that up. Why hasn’t he? Meant to believe that an early riser like Forrest has been all his life, decides to start his hike after lunch? Even though I don’t like to try to think what f will do, that is one thing that is hard to swallow. Beings how he’s embarking on one of the most important things in his life, ahhhh, I’ll wait ’till after lunch.
            No, afternoon is not 8-9 hours. No, not translating far or too far on anything, but you cannot deny his words, you know that. It’s just a lot of people take for a FACT that there is no way there is a long distance to walk, and they would be wrong in thinking just that. Plus, I have an awesome blaze, so 5 or so miles sounds right to me,:)

          • Charlie: you’re either saying Forrest is a liar, or he’s being deliberately misleading. Forrest has said he has no desire to mislead, so if you don’t think he hid the chest in one afternoon (and not a liberal 8-hour interpretation of one) then logically you cannot believe anything he has said or written — to include actually hiding the chest. Once you allow for lies or subterfuge, there’s no point in continuing.

          • Hold up Zap, I never said he didn’t hide the chest one afternoon. I’m saying he took two trips and he was done in the one trip after noon. He took two trips from his car and was done in one afternoon( or after noon).
            Lug, I get the misspellings and double this and that, I’m saying in the book, he explains himself. Not so much in the ATF comments. If he wanted to get his point across, and have us understand what he was saying, going from the book as examples, he would explain himself when the possibility of what he was saying may be interpreted incorrectly. But he doesn’t. He wants the possible dual, triple meanings to fester out here. Just like the underwater thing, when the dangers started to pop up, he explained, not underwater. And Zap, if I thought he was lying or misleading, then I guess I would join the searchers looking in Idaho, underwater.
            Montana is the place. You know it, I know it, and well , SoCal is in the lead, I leave it at that.
            Back to Lug, in the book f states there are hundreds of gold coins, why with an ATF comment did he say there were 265 gold coins? Wouldn’t hundreds prove his point? He specifically remembered how many, and put that many in the chest. Do you think this means anything? (Choose your words wisely, Persian)
            F has plausible deniability everywhere, all I’m saying is to not discount something when he : changes from the book, double meanings, or could underestimate him in a situation. You guys are arguing points from one perspective instead of noting the other possibilities. Notice through these last few posts, I’m just stating the possibilities, you may be very well right, about as much as you may be very well wrong. (I did like the creative example there Lug)
            Hear me all, I hear you, and will have to conclude to disagree. The one major reason being that I don’t think f wanted to be seen. If he could park his car where he did, anybody at anytime could. To think he only would walk a short distance from there is not a good conclusion given his ATF comments, noted above. And yes, of course, I could be just as wrong as you may be. All our opinion. Now, if you are not going to consider that he may well have walked a ways, you limit your possibilities, but I’m sure you know that and your solve reflects. If you are in the camp of one afternoon, 6hrs, two trips, that still leaves the possibility of a 3 mile one way scenario. At least 2 miles one way. That would be considered far with the weight and the obvious hurried state one afternoon would give. And again, he wouldn’t want to be seen. With that being the case, two trips, both in the afternoon, does not seem to fit. Starting in the morning, walking a long distance, finishing up in the one trip that was after noon, seems to allow for rest, privacy, and no worries about being close to where he could be seen. Then again, he never said that both trips were done in the same day. But that’s another discussion.
            Took two trips and done in one afternoon. What, done in one of those trips which was after noon, or done in one afternoon?
            He wrote a poem containing 9 clues that if followed precisely will lead to the end of his rainbow and the chest. What, follow the clues precisely or follow the poem precisely? Need to have the first clue nailed down. What, nailed down as totally, 100% correct, or, nailed down like the type you buy from a hardware store?
            Keeping all avenues open, 🙂

        • Just wanted to chime in on the distance that FF may have walked when he hid the treasure. FF is quoted as responding to someone named Ron and stating “But I will say that I walked less than a few miles if that will help” when Ron asked if he would be so bold as to give an estimate of how far he walked to hide the treasure. In reviewing some other quotes from FF, specifically from 02/09/2017 when he is answering many questions from a bunch of school children (Forrest Gets Mail 13), he answers 3 questions as follows: Q1 = When was the last time you have been to where the treasure is hidden? A1 = A few years ago. Q2 = When was the last time you were back to the place with the treasure was hidden? A2 = A few years ago. Q3 = Have you ever revisited the place you hid it? A3 = No.
          Interesting that he answers 2 questions with “A few years ago” but then answers the 3rd question with “No”. Begs to question what FF’s definition of “a few” is—if it means “a small number”, and this Q & A was from 2017, then that number is at least 7 to make all 3 of his answers correct (2017 – 2010 = 7 years ago he hid the treasure AND he never went back). Just my 2 cents and IMO.

          • Bowmarc, this may be one way to look at it. What are your thoughts to a “few” being three or four years at a general area, but not being at the exact spot since he hid the treasure chest? Let me give an example for what I’m trying to say. Let’s say the last time he was in West Yellowstone was a few years ago (3 or 4 years), but hasn’t been to the exact spot since he hid it in West Yellowstone. I am not saying it’s there, just to give an example of his answering the two questions with “few,” but the third of not being where he hid it.

            This is an opinion, offered as a thought.

          • Bowmarc
            Interesting and worth more than 2 cents to me. Continuing on, IF 7 = a few total miles then 2 round-trips = 3.5 miles each and a one-way trip = 1.75 miles. IF a few means more or less than 7, I’d need to go farther or not as far. I think I need to go back to the poem and focus more and better. Thanks.

          • Bowmarc,
            I’m just as curious about those questions as you are. Here’s one thought; fenn was there hiding the chest a few years ago…[first two questions]
            He could have said something like ‘many moons ago’ and still given an honest answer. However, it seems the first two Q&A’s are about the treasure. [and the action of hiding the chest.]
            The last question was about “revisited” the place, which fenn [ as you also stated ] has never gone back to the hidey space/place/location. This [imo] would explain the answers that seem to contradict each other. fenn didn’t revisit[ed] the place… he was there hiding the chest a few years ago.

            But this doesn’t help much as far as fenn’s use of “a few” other than the definition is; a small number. And “scant” being a synonym of a few doesn’t really help much either… So, keeping with the conversation at hand… less than a few “miles” doesn’t narrow down anything, other than “miles” as a possible indicator… which might eliminate the thought of footage as a measurement… [ anything under 5280 ]. add in another comment about ~ we should be able to walk several hours, and now “miles” seems to be a better thought than lesser footage.

            We’re not going to find the answer to any distance unless we can solve the clues. But, we can use what we have [ AFT ] to help with what is good or bad in the thought process of all the clues location. fenn said he followed the clues… so i’m going with the thought that we should have to walk more than a “mile”

            The big question; Is that total round trip twice, or one way? lol… yep, all that thinking, and analyzing and pondering, didn’t help much either…………………..

          • Seeker,
            The answer to your question is a simple math exercise, which you seemed to missed from reading above. Sadly hand holding wont get you to where you need to be

          • Few: not many; as a determiner: a handful, one or two, a couple, two or three.
            Few: adj., scant, meager
            As a side note to the comments about Fenn’s answer to Ron’s Q…
            The act of hiding the treasure would seem to indicate, the chest and the loot as a complete package…
            Thusly, that would say that his answer indicates all four legs of the hiding were less than a few miles.
            The “correct” tally will be when a searcher deciphers the clues and retrieves the “treasure”…and yes, having an “understanding” beforehand will help weed out unnecessary “over hiking”….for some.

  24. Still learning where to/not to post and think this is the correct spot. Hope question has not been asked/answered a million times but does anyone have any idea what ‘quickly down’ means?

    • It’s hard to say 100% KLT. Forrest looked up definitions of words and changed them when writing the poem. It has been helpful for me to look up definitions of words as some can be a little different than you may think.

      Quickly down can be expeditiously or directly to a lower position, elevation, or to the south IMO.

      • Thanks, the dictionary has helped some. I think I might be in way over my head with thing and have a feeling I haven’t even scratched the surface of the riddle! There goes my buffalo ranch – haha! I’ll go back to the drawing board and see if I can get inside ff’s brilliant mind. 🙂

        • Believe KLT, most if not all of us are in over our head and nobody really knows how much of the surface they are scratching. Good luck with the buffalo ranch!

          • Thanks, Aaron! My family raised buffalo to train cutting horses. I’m always amazed at how many people don’t know what cutting horses are – all you have to do is look it up. 🙂
            Best wishes in your search!

          • Hi KLT, I do know what cutting horses is as my sons aunt participates in rodeos doing various things. I do not know how buffalo is involved, sounds interesting. I assumed it was your ranch would be for food. Love buffalo burgers 🙂 Thanks, and good luck to you too!

          • Thanks, DB! It’s so intimidating putting yourself out there with these brilliant people, but yin and yang might be necessary to solve this puzzle. 🙂 Where are you in your search?

            Has anyone considered marvel gazing at the falling (quickly down) stars? Moon, stars, wishing?

          • Welcome to the chase and my only advice is to be sure not to confuse brilliant with overly complicated.

            Beware the rabbit holes.

          • Welcome to the Chase, KLT!

            SL & pdenver are discussing some of that very subject matter over on the “in the wood” thread. Check it out!

          • Not sure what that means (should seriously change my name to Penny -haha!) but our duck always puts a smile on my face. We had one about ten years ago that that he was one of the horses – he was a funny little guy!

        • KLT, thank you kindly for asking. I really wish I had something helpful to offer. To be somewhat transparent, I am not completely sure where I am at in the search. I had a team at one point and felt very confident that our main man had completely solved it. He has since lost contact with me so I’m trying to piece this together with what I had already learned as I learn new ideas. I think I am slowly getting somewhere but I am still waiting for a Eureka moment as I stare over and over and new and old information.

    • KTL;

      Yes, it has been discussed quite a bit. Most simple definition is “Look at your feet – quickly.” I looked up all of the words and found this: Look = Examine; Quickly = Intelligent and/or pungent aroma (an archaic definition) and Down = downstream. Therefore, “Look quickly down” means that I must: Intelligently examine a grove of pines (aeromatic pine needles) that is downstream from my blaze. It works for my solve, it may not work for yours. JDA

      • Hi JDA – So what happens if that grove burns or had burned before you found it? Or what happens if someone has to clear the trees for power lines or something similar? A long time ago I too used to think that trees of some sort played into one of the clues but haven’t since January of this year.

        And of course there are many other scenarios that make the use of trees less desirable. Potential logging, diseases and insects, fire management, etc…

        Forrest also said something about how a searcher won’t just get out of their car and walk over in the woods to get the chest.

        IMO, “in the wood” has nothing to do with trees.

        • Hear me all. I agree with you. I don’t think “in the wood” has anything to do with trees.

    • KLT,
      If your told to look quickly down… two things come to mind;
      Where was I looking prior and why?
      Why does the idea of quickly be involved?

      I mean, my feet are going any place until I move them, right?
      A creek isn’t going to disappear if I don’t look at it quickly, right?
      We’re told to look with marvel gaze as well… gaze means to look steadily, study etc. But if we add quickly again after being wise and ‘found’ the blaze, it might be that we should gaze and study [ observe ] some thing that happens quickly from the prior location [ which could be up ].
      Yet we have, “but tarry scant …” Some like to think this means get the heck out of wherever you are [don;t linger too long or you’ll get caught… I personally take it as, linger a short time… which seems to imply a reason for quickly looking down to gaze at something.

      Sorry if that is confusing to you… but if we have found the blaze… that doesn’t mean we are standing next to it, nor know what it’s meant for or if we need to utilize it in some manor. Found means located, discover means understanding… could the poem be telling us what we need to discover after the blaze if “found” that will ‘lead’ to the chest?

      However, we do know that the blaze is a clue… the question you may want to ask yourself… is it the ‘last’ clue to be found?

      If your attempting to find a single answer for part of a line or only a couple words… I think you’ll go bald long before deciphering only those two words.

      • Oh my gosh – I feel like Penny on ‘The Big Bang Theory’ – huh? Just kidding. 🙂 I haven’t thought about ‘where was I looking and why?’ before. And then to link it with marvel gaze. What about throwing cease into the mix? Hmmm, interesting. Headed out to son’s baseball game and won’t be back online until tomorrow but very interested in your thoughts.

        ps I don’t want to bald, I have pretty hair. 😉

      • Seeker: I take “look quickly down” to mean simply that the treasure is close by. And, I don’t believe the blaze is the last clue, but you should be able to locate the treasure without much difficulty once you reach the blaze. Forrest has indicated this.

        • with the theme of the poem, mirrors, what if the blaze cannot be seen, initially? A lot of the pictures he has given us have been staged some way. F having fun, take a pic, flip it horizontally, layer the original pic, 50% opacity, see what you get. Maybe that’s a hint. Maybe the landscape is the blaze, but cannot be seen until you are wise, mirror the pic of the landscape onto itself, and the blaze appears. Maybe the marvel gaze is actually something, the seen part. To take something from the marvel gaze. Maybe look down at your computer(doubt that’s what he meant), but it’s the marvel gaze that is seen, not the blaze. I can see him finding a blaze in some old pics that he was messing with when he did what he does with some of his pics. That would throw the searcher off. A blaze that cannot be seen until it is mirrored onto itself. Cannot be seen if facing North, South ,East, or West. “So why is it that I must go”. Take out the “I” it must go. So why s t:
          Y street, Wyoming state, “Southwest”. Who would ever think to mirror the landscape? Would throw searchers off for sure…

          • Mirroring a landscape could take “marvel gaze” to an entirely higher level.

            Reflecting back on the SB tour of The Flyer as he highlighted certain aspects in his bathroom?

            The mirrors; all of those …..mirrors!
            That sky light in his shower, as well.

            Take us away….Calgon!


          • Very astute observation. In my opinion, reflections are an extremely important to consider and examine.

          • I think its Fenn just being Fenn which causes searchers to create rabbit holes.
            He doesn’t want the treasure found, hence his statement he was thinking 100-1000 years from now.

          • Been BOTG in Southern Montana. Didn’t find it t
            Google Search Wyoming. Didn’t find anything there but periodic springs but nothing to corraborate with the rest of the clue. Scoured Colorado and Northern Colorado. Should ha e a PhD on trapper history and lovable outlaws but nothing pushed my button. Tonight I visit Colorado, a state that may deserve more scrutiny. Think I need searcher

          • Bob
            Perhaps your thesis was on the wrong mountain profession. I came across a story that comes very close to matching the poem, but it’s in a state not close to the chase.
            I have lots of pieces but missing a ball of string to the it all together.

      • Look quickly down. —- may mean to nod, to agree (ascent), or to duck, or to make a slight bow, a sign of respect, or to avoid something embarrassing like offensive grrafitee or shame at recognition of some offensive act like a massacre or a hanging tree, even a nude spa for some. Or maybe its just to see directional signage like an arrow. Maybe just blink your eyes to avoid the glint of the sun or a beacon flashing in your direction. What makes you look quickly down?

        • OS2,
          Possible indicators, “in there” “keep” “Begin IT” “take it in” etc.
          After the blaze is “found” imo, the poem is not saying; this isn’t the end of anything… To me it’s saying; Do this to action to locate the chest…
          But we need to do this for a reason. We need to observe [gaze] something… something needed to be planned for.

          Fenn stated he followed the clues; why would he need to if he knew of this place? { did he mean e just walked by all the clues or did he need them ]… It seems to me that he utilized the clues to have them point or instruct the finder in how to location a 10″ spot.
          A spot that he feels won’t be stumble upon for a 100 year plus. If the “location” is so well hidden, and the chest hidden within “in there”… doesn’t it seem reasonable that, only the ‘use’ of the clues will “lead” to the chest, and not so much direct or directional hike to following?

          I have given the idea in the past to, we are reading the poem wrong… we know that wwwh is the first clue, but it may not be the place we need to start at. How can we locate a single wwwh reference out of all the possible reference [ without throwing a dart at a map] ?
          Where is home?… better yet, what is home?

          **~ If you know what hoB is, why would you be concerned about wwwh? LOL, that’s a very odd answer when it’s been stated many times; ‘need to nail down the first clues or stay home.’

          • Seeker. The poem is a map. But we must solve the clues in order to determination (primarily). Like any road map, if we know the destination, there are usually multiple ways to get there. The above is my opinion.

          • Tom B;

            You say. ” Like any road map, if we know the destination, there are usually multiple ways to get there.” – Sorry I have to disagree. I could well be wrong, but I think that there is only one road in, and one road out. Forrest hinted at this when he was asked if he had skipped any of the clues when he hid Indulgence, because of his familiarity with the area, His answer was that he followed the clues. JDA

          • JD. The only way I can see to support your statements is if all of the clues are located in a single canyon with unavailable walls and only one entrance/exit. Please give an example to support your view.

          • TomB,
            Like direction finding on a road map you already know your starting point.

            It not unlike saying start at the big city…. We need to know which city to begin at to follow the map, right?
            Did fenn tell us exactly where the location of the clues are at?

            Imo, guessing a state is much to large for the many wwwh still in each state. .. something within the poem should indicate this location in a relatively specific area. If not, we are only throwing darts.

            I think the clues are being suggested to be followed by how the order is being told, not what we think it should be.

            If I said start at the pharmacy and go to the tire center, you might logically assume a department store over a simple pharmacy… Right?
            However we need to narrow down which department store that has a tire center… Walmart, Sears etc. How do we find the one and only correct pharmacy to start at if we don’t know it’s home?

            Many have deciphered, indicated the first couple of clues, yet didn’t know… Ask yourself.. what did the all seem to do next?

            Simple answer is… They left the store looking for another place not realizing they may be at the home of the correct pharmacy already.

          • Seeker…
            “…,but before you go, look at the poem as if it were a map, because it is, and like any other map, it will {show} you where to go if you follow its directions.” Tie this in with other ATF like “…if you knew the geographic locations…” and others, it appears that the poem is a map that will get a searcher to the spot…exactly. My theory has the actual “start” at HOB. I believe the poem in its entirety helps “nail down” the correct wwh…and the actual botg search begins at the put in.
            This seems to line up with ” If you know what HOB is,…” Fenn’s ATF about no short cuts/follow the clues indicates that the clues are in order and if not followed, will lead one astray. One misstep…and good vacation.

          • **~ If you know what hoB is, why would you be concerned about wwwh? LOL, that’s a very odd answer when it’s been stated many times; ‘need to nail down the first clues or stay home.’

            Seeker, we know FF can be a little tricky. He never said that you wouldn’t need to be concerned about WWWH if you know where HoB is he asked a question, If you know what hoB is, why would you be concerned about wwwh?

            IMO this doesn’t tell us definitively that we shouldn’t be concerned about WWWH if we know where HoB is. His statements about how important the first clue is are a little more definitive to me. I could be wrong though.

          • Aaron
            If someone started looking for HoB then they would want to back into their guess with wwwh, to reinforce their guess.
            HoB could be a smokey, da bears’ sign for all we know to who knows who.
            For example.
            Start at Fenns rainbow in Thermopolis, wwwh at the hot spring terraces.
            Canyon down, wind river.
            Put in below the Home of Brown then would be about 13miles into the canyon where the white river rafting company launches (Indian owned). Across the street, is Smokey. (Dual HoB)
            Perfect solve for the 1st stanza, however falls apart after that.
            The only way to get above 5000 feet is to climb up the canyon, and Fenn already said he didn’t do that. And not else around there for other points.
            Could the remainder of the poem keep you on the wind river, sure, there’s a train on the other side, lots of huge holders in the river, and you can’t be meek walking those steep edges.
            Yet it’s all under the 5k and I’m not risking falling in and doubt an 80yr would too.

          • I think you’re overcomplicating it. I think it’s pretty clear that, as in the case of the blaze, Forrest doesn’t think you can figure out home of Brown without ~first~ figuring out WWWH. Sure, people could make guesses all day long about what hoB is, but they would just be guesses.

            So when you pose the hypothetical question that starts “If you *know* what hoB is…” (my emphasis on “know”), then it seems to me (and apparently to Forrest as well) that there is no reason to concern yourself with what WWWH is. But I think the reality is that you can’t possibly know hoB unless Forrest told you what it was, or you successfully followed the clues forward from your hoB guess and found the chest.

            I just don’t understand why people think they can short-circuit the clues and start somewhere in the middle when Forrest has made it abundantly clear that you can’t … that doing so is “expensive folly.”

          • I think it’s worth entering the complete answer into evidence (with emphasis added) –

            “Do you think that someone who is sure about the location of the home of Brown could reverse-engineer where warm waters halt?” ~Ben Raylor

            “Thanks for the question Ben.
            If you are sure about the location of home of Brown why are you concerned about where warm waters halt?
            and a few searchers might throw in some gas money for a percentage of the take. Good luck.” f

            I think the sole purpose of WWWH is to deliver you to HoB. Put another way, my wild-geese-chasing for the past year has been based on the idea that you can’t reasonably drive or walk to HoB without going by (or through, or over, or under) WWWH.

            To take an example search that’s been run by several others – you can get from the travertine terraces at Mammoth Hot Springs to the Joe Brown put-in on the Yellowstone by following the clues.

            It’s a sufficient starting point, but it’s not a NECESSARY starting point because you can also get to the put-in by driving UP the Yellowstone (rather than down from Gardiner).


        • The Blaze may be an overhang, and if so, one must look quickly down below the overhang to see what must be seen.

          Or if the overhang is pointing in a direction, then one must look quickly down in the direction it is pointing.

          Just some ideas

    • It’s a sensor or switch of some kind. When you “find” the blaze your hand will pass over a sensor which opens a drawer down below. You have to look down quickly before the drawer closes again. Or perhaps you pull on something that opens something down below—but you have to do it quickly.

      I have no idea what I’m saying—except that what YOU do may cause you to have to look down quickly or miss out. Catch my drift? 🙂

      • Sparrow. That sounds like an Indiana Jones movie where the treasure is booby trapped. Hope that’s not the case here. 🙂

      • Sparrow – Just saw your post and believe it or not, I catch your drift. Makes perfect sense. Thanks, I’m listening, just trying to have a little fun while doing so.

        • This is all new to me and I get giddy with excitement at times but can you believe we are all looking for a real treasure? It’s very surreal if you think about it but so much fun!

          • Keep on having fun. Winters are long, harder to keep up the child-like glee, but you can do it!!! – JDA

          • I’ve been involved for more than a year now and I still get giddy— and I agree— it is really a lot of fun!! And I have learned some incredible things. I have looked in so many different directions!
            Just last night for example I learned that starlings do a thing called mumurfication— and the fly in the thousands without hitting one another and form amazing images as they fly. Google “amazing starlings” to see this. The Chase is a gift to us– it truly is. We look for a treasure, but we are blessed with so many treasures by searching. Thanks to Forrest for his wonderful ideas!!!

          • …a real treat for those like me, who have always wanted to partcipate in one.

            Good luck too you.

      • I have learned so much also. I had no idea about the Gulf of Tonkin Resolution and how the VM war began, let’s hope as a country we never make that mistake again.
        Thanks JDA! Maybe having child-like glee will keep me from over thinking. Penny for your thoughts? 🙂
        Do you ride/show cuttin’ horses?

        • Hi KLT;

          Nope, sorry to say I do not, but I was raised in NM as a kid. My Grandfather had a friend who worked on a ranch, and had a cuttin’ horse. I loved watching them work – like a fine tuned machine. I still marvel at “Their” skill! JDA

        • Viet Nam – hit m instead of n.
          And thanks to all out there who serve. You are our nation’s true treasures. My son met a 102 year old WWII fighter pilot yesterday at an air show, incredible!

      • Sparrow

        This is Indiana Jones stuff. It’s great to imagine what he did at the blaze, but I doubt he had time to construct such a complex mechanism.

        But somehow, as he has stated, he will know when the TC is found. Therefor it is impossible to discount the idea of a sensor of some kind.

        I can’t get the frogs out of my mind, and wonder if he placed one of the frogs of gold (or a bell with a frog on it) under the blaze to display the location of the TC below the rocks there.

        My blaze is a rock overhang with a fairly big area beneath it. Which reminds me of the flashlight thing in previous threads. I might need it when I get there.

        I see what I want to see. I may be up a creek with no paddle 🙂


    • KLT – As I get more and more into defining words, etc., I get the feeling that FF is describing a trek down a particular waterway and “Look quickly down” can be defined/read as “direct your eye towards an object (in this case, the waterway) as it speeds with celerity (an affection of motion by which a movable body runs through a given space in a given time ie. the water flowing through the landscape) on its way (pick one or all here for the definition of DOWN) along a descent/toward the mouth of a river/to a place where water is discharged into the ocean or a lake”.

      IMO 🙂

      • Bowmarc –

        You sound like you are describing the second stanza. Picture Fenn describing the scene instead of reading as multiple directions.

        Begin it where warm waters halt and take it in the canyon down, not far but too far to walk, and put in blow the home of Brown.

        The waters pause before they head down canyon not far but too far to walk and put in below the home of Brown.

        As in a painting , the water on the left is larger and gets smaller as it heads right and up on the canvas, seems to disappear at the foot of the mountain painted high on the canvas and right of center.
        it is this vista that I am looking for.


        • Lug – Thanks for the comment. Just using the definitions of the 3 words that I was able to find and tying them into a complete description of a scene—at least in my mind and my imagination. I’ve already posted about the last 2 lines of this stanza and the two posts combined do complement each other for what to look for and how to look.

          • Fenn says the poem is like a map or is a map.

            To me the poem is like a sketch. Fenn is sketching the scene as sure as if he had a pad of paper and some charcoal.

            I don’t follow the water to the home of Brown.


          • Lug – I can appreciate that line of thinking, and am envisioning my own sketch, with the waterway being the blaze as it meanders through the countryside being poetically described by FF—At least this time around for this potential solve.

            TTOTC! 🙂

    • KLT- yeah man….quickly down means fast. like right under your nose. right there. in front of you. at your feet. you are there. stop looking. dont complicate it. find the blaze, and you are at the treasure. simple stuff man.

    • whikerbill, thank you for not flinging more info — that is
      helpful fore a good solve — this time.

      Are we having fun yet? At least one of us is.

      I CHOOSE to say IMO.

  25. Reading the first line for the millionth time…”As I have gone”…..listening to myself it sounds like, ” A sigh half gone…” Anyone else hear things like this in the poem?

    • I truly love the twists you guys come up with. And yes, now that you have pointed it out, I hear that evry time. So is that the way kids hear it 1st time out?


      • It may be nothing but Fenn says to read it over and over and study every word. It’s one thing to read every word but I think we need to hear every word and phrase and just let the imagination overcome the conscious programming we all seem to have difficulty with..imho

        • Bob, that’s like the guy on the bike, with the weird handlebars, then he spends month, finally learns, then can no longer ride a regular bike! Lol
          While his kid just jumps right on and takes off.
          That’s prolly why FF says shoe it to a kid, they don’t have the mental blocks we adults do and are so adept at picking up on new languages.

    • Yes— I hear that if I have been drinking. “A sigh..have gone a..a.alone inthere” (hic –burp), an with my tre..treshhures boldd (zzzzzzzz.. sound of lamp falling over)

      Just kidding—-I actually don’t drink any more. lol

  26. I proffer the following textual analysis just for your entertainment. I’ve tried everything else so it can’t hurt by throwing it out there. Perhaps you might see other possibilities. Can’t figure how to do italics but tried. I’s sure you can follow along line by line. Fun with words is just my musings on some words that have yet to be worked to death.

    As I have gone alone in there
    A sigh half gone

    And with my treasures bold,

    I can keep my secret where,

    And hint of riches new and old.

    Begin it where warm waters halt
    Wear/ ware

    And take it in the canyon down,
    take Kit

    Not far, but too far to walk.
    not (one) far, but 2 far

    Put in below the home of Brown.
    Put Tin… below

    From there it’s no place for the meek,
    The end is ever drawing nigh;

    There’ll be no paddle up your creek,

    Just heavy loads and water high.

    If you’ve been wise and found the blaze,
    Few been y’s

    Look quickly down, your quest to cease,
    Questa cease/seize
    But tarry scant with marvel gaze,
    Buttery’s can’t
    Just take the chest and go in peace.
    So why is it I must go
    Southern Wyoming is it I must go

    And leave my trove for all to seek?

    The answers I already know,

    I’ve done it tired, and now I’m weak.

    So hear me all and listen good,

    Your effort will be worth the cold.

    If you are brave and in the wood

    I give you title to the gold.

    • You said put tin below home of Brown, what about…
      Put ten beow, (-10) now a “N” of homer brown. A homer is a measurement, 220 liters? Or a 50 gal drums worth, do they look like coordinates now?
      I’m not good at that stuff, but someone is

    • Bob, another one… did you get Odyssey from all to seek?
      …. In the English language as well as many others, the word odyssey has come to refer to an epic voyage.
      Prolly just another red herring, but since Homer”s Odysseus, then iliad, do you know there was a third work for a trilogy?
      FF also likes threes lol

      • Purpleheart or Amarynth (from Peltogyne spp.) It is a brightly colored wood from South America that is very popular for its naturally deep and purple color. The color is a pale brown when freshly cut, darkening in deep violet violet with UV exposure in a few days. Occasionally, the trees produce fiddleback or a ropey stained cluster of interlinked grains. The trees are usually large with 70-100 ‘heights and 2-3 “diameters .The trunks are long and free of limbs with a beautiful canopy or limbs just at the top of the tree.The wood has coarse open grain and is dense and durable.

          • pdenver
            this tree (Purpleheart or Amarynth (of Peltogyne spp.) fits with the story of marvel that had a chainsaw behind his truck, as well as the, DOSSEl, of the scrapbook 138, the carbon c-14 is also used in another tree that lives up to 5,000 years or more, located in the new Mexico and Colorado, because there is 2 history of its ff citing the carbon c-14 because it is used to date these trees that live above 5 thousand years, in the colorado these trees are found in basin, in the new mexico in the rocky mountains, why wear boots and gloves, must be spot that has to cross a small reason brook or snakes in the mountain, the glove must be for a high high place above 3,000 and cold or that has snow on top of the year all.
            His quote on the bell he bought from Eric Sloane in the 172 scrapbook and enjoy and see the design of the saddle, the other side of Eric Sloane’s scrapbook 177, as well as the bell ringing code that his wife Peggy touches to call him when this is also a metadata used for cattle, ducks, and locomotives with vapors, whether they have bells or horns of explosions (horn).
            More your research may be easier if you use a geographic map of trees in mountains, this is how the police’s scientific expertise knows when they find a body in one place, more was murdered in another, example in a douglas fir forest and was taken to needle pine.
            This is my opinion and I see it being

          • Hello rhonny. This is interesting. I will also need to go back and reread the scrapbooks you’ve mentioned.

          • (Second try.) This is interesting, rhonny. Thank you. I will also need to go back and reread the scrapbooks you’ve mentioned.

          • pdenver:

            yes, read scrapbook 178 graciella, and look at the last paragraphs you will understand, family book indugence. (BIBLE) WHICH PSALM HE READS
            116 ff bathroom floor, see the 3 photo and what it looks like. (Bear)
            105,125,169,138,168,147,27,171172,173,174,177,179,122,117 mammoth, 127 ff cutout, 127 father object of ff.
            documentary and reportage
            scrapbook 163/167/61
             other scrapbooks
            104,105,114,123,124,125 friend shop explosion, 128,129 my eric sloane, 129 point: ceramic coin, 146 yard of your ff, the ceramic ducks in the pond and the wooden chair by the edge, I found one of this more swinging caidera on the banks of the river madson, 108 phone, 152 friend sally, imformaçoes, 169 bingo.
            1 stanza: location of the place
            2,3,4, stanzas: map
            5,6, stanzas: should be points in the treasure site together with 2,3 stanza that helps to find the end point.
            The poem, words of his FF, someone broke it to 900 years, this reminds me of Chinese poems, which in ancient times were only written poems, some centuries later was added images in the ancient poems of the place to translate the feeling of the artist.
            Remember his ff in one of his story he traveled to china with his friend that if I am not mistaken his name was JHON or JOHN, I THINK THAT HISTORY, has to do with sales of pictures of paintings false thing like that.
            Another story is about the chickens, which caught my attention, because the treasure contain golden nuggens of a chicken egg size, if this helps the researchers do not know, more who knows right.
            Another story is the 168 of your commander or general specer some so, who smoked pipe on your table before giving permission to your ff pilots your plane and your last words (DO NOT BREAK MY AIRPLANE), good to the north of holy faith there is a mountain full of riches, where in it was found a CACHIMBO that cost $ 16.000 DOLLARES, if this helps also I do not know, but it’s a coincidence I do not know.

  27. Stanza 4 comments:

    Tarry = Abide = Be prepared for

    Scant = Become less, sparring, little

    Marvel = Admiration or wonder / Wonder = presentation to the sight or mind of something new, unusual, or strange that arrests your attention / Wonder = a strange thing

    Gaze = to view with fixed attention

    “But tarry scant with marvel gaze,” = be prepared to study the little details for what is different or strange.

    Take away of the whole stanza combined =

    If you have been wise and found the blaze, = Your knowledge of the clues/hints in the poem have led you to a specific spot,

    Look quickly down your quest to cease but tarry scant with marvel gaze, = now look down without going any further in your search and look for something that seems out of place no matter how tiny or insignificant it may appear to the eye,

    Just take the chest and go in peace. = that which seems out of place in this special place hides Indulgence so take it and leave with tranquility.

      • Thanks JDA – I like the way this interpretation reads, as well as how (at least to me) it subtly changes the last line of the stanza.

    • Bowmarc

      I like this analysis very much. I have similar views and cannot add much to what you have said.

      Tell us what you think of the 5th stanza?


      • Franklin,

        Thanks for commenting. I have not gotten to the 5th stanza yet as I am trying to work from beginning to end, and am now backtracking as it suddenly occurred to me that “it’s” can have more than one meaning…

    • Expanding on Here me all’s possible solution to Forrest’s small French watercolor of fairies dancing around a rock (though the painting in question is an oil by an English artist), did anyone ever track down a Gilbert Gaul painting depicting “a man standing on a wooden bridge holding a smoking pistol, with a dead dog at his feet bleeding all over the boards”? I seriously question whether there is such a Gilbert Gaul painting. There was a Sotheby’s auction back on March 17, 1980, of a Gilbert Gaul painting entitled “The dead dog” (lot #296), but strangely no pictures of the painting can be found anywhere. Seems like there might be a possible hint hiding in here, given the obvious connection between “hush puppies” and a dead dog.

  28. Hey everyone… If you’ve seen the news on the fires in Northern California they are really scary. Two are about 25 miles above and below JDiggins property. She doesn’t have much reception and she needs prayers and positive thoughts the wind does not change direction…. Please send her some Love !

    • Thanks spallies,
      I was unaware of the dangers closing in on our friend. Jdiggins, if you read this my prayers are with you and your family. May the winds shift away from you. Your in my thoughts……


    • You should see the sky over here. Anaheim Hills fire has turned everything dark and orange. Thinking about you Norcal, stay safe.

    • Hi Charlie: ditto for me. Sky was an eerie orange all day mimicking deep partial eclipse lighting, and you could smell smoke in our office. When I left work at 5:20 in Seal Beach my car had ash all over it and the parking lot smelled like a campground.

      • yikes Zap, I’m leaving work right now in South Gate. Girlfriends sister actually lives in Anaheim Hills, needs to evacuate. No ash this far though, careful in all the traffic.

        • We were spared from so much and appreciate your kind thoughts and gentle smiles. Thank you ♥

          One memory I will cherish from the devastating and destructive experience from these fires, involves a little girl whom I’ll never forget.

          Grandad had built her a small, wooden chalet birdhouse that became lost in the aftermath of the fire that had just destroyed her family’s home and had obviously meant the world to her.

          Words can’t begin to express the gentle joy that filled that large shelter when a fireman approached her with that beautiful, and intact birdhouse! He had discovered it while sifting through some ashes of what remained of the family’s home. Bright and unexpected moments are the stuff of miracles!

          Again, I thank you my friends,


          • Oh my goodness, my friend. Your story brought tears to my eyes, both in sadness, and in great joy.

    • Jdiggins…Prayers coming your way.. Stay safe.
      I have friends living in Windsor and they say Larksville got hit bad..the shopping center,Orchard inn, Fountaingrove hotel,Willies wine bar and the Catholic school are all GONE.
      Plus lots of have lost homes …this is just heart breaking.

  29. Jdiggins,
    Take care of your family and property “first”, then when all is clear please let me know you’re ok. My prayers are with you jdiggins…

    My email is…. springtime1996 at hotmail dot com ….. let me know if you need anything…..

    Until next time… see ya my “friend”…

  30. I thought I would relay something that a user on Reddit just submitted. Apparently, the first stanza contains: “hidden in the national register of historical places beaverhead county Montana.”

    I checked and confirmed it works. I had the leftover letters: ewnddnsewekemyhcirrseewhere. Please double check my work, if you’re so inclined because I did it in haste.

      • Lugnutz, Been reading your comments but find it hard to locate a reply link to related communication. Anyhow, I like your thoughts and they sound reasonable and doable. Just wanted you to know I also believe that there is no need for extreme physical exercise – I doubt a child could perform such tasks. My husband and I have not had any problems reaching our spot – and he is paralyzed on one half of his body – and we can do it in an afternoon (after reaching the spot). One summer afternoon is enough for us even though we have repeated the ‘afternoon’ experience many times. Other than some limitations for my husband and my back deciding to cause pain, we had no dangerous encounters or difficulties. I believe if we had young grandchildren, they would have been just fine. I hear about spectacular wonders as people train and prepare for climbs, skiing, etc. and wow it is beautiful; but I think where we go is just as spectacular if not more so.

        • Pen Ghost –

          Over time people have over complicated this chase. They can’t figure out the simple clues, so they complicate them. The old saying is apropos to the chase. They cannot see the forest for the trees.

          Way back when everyone involved thought he treasure was in New Mexico he said he designed the thing for the out of work Texan that loads up his kids in his pick up truck. I believe Fenn when he says that.

          The main reason I talk to people is safety. It is my belief that there is absolutely no danger in the terrain of this chase. I take Fenn at his word when he says the TC can be retrieved in any weather.

          Some idiot (or fool) will comment to remind me that Fenn said probably and that that should totally negate the meaning he was conveying.


          • Lugz I concur with this sentimate. Its the triangulation to arrive is where we differ.

            This is a pondering to the retrieval at any time statement. I don’t know the ins and out of Yellowstone, only that they close the main loop in winter. So logically wouldn’t that exclude YS?
            Maybe some snowshoes would get you there, but would that have the essence of this statement?

      • Good question davzona, thats a lot of left over letters. The possibilities are endless…

      • I wasn’t the one who figured it out. It was a user on the Fenn subreddit (reddit).

        So, since I originally posted, I actually tried to use the leftover letters and the word “beaverhead” to substitute for a different county name in Montana. Of the many, many counties, only Sanders and Mineral worked. But that would leave even more leftover letters. Wyoming and Colorado were automatically eliminated because the names could not be created with the available letters.

        Also, I substituted “near” for “in” and that word uses more letters and it makes sense that the treasure would be “near” a place instead of “in” a place.

        So, Sanders and Mineral counties only list buildings for National historic places, and most of those are in towns, so both of those counties don’t make much sense.

        Having said that, IF this is correct (big IF) and Fenn planted this highly complex anagram in the first stanza, then I have a pretty good idea where it’s at.

        If you are in SW Montana and want to take a few hours to check this place out, I will tell you EXACTLY where it is. And once you find the place, it won’t take you long to investigate the whole place. Feel free to email me at neat.o.matic.73 at g-mail

        • Just to clarify, I should mention by “exactly where it is,” I was referring to the National Historic place, not the treasure. I have no idea if the treasure is actually there.

    • Forrest has told us “Don’t mess with my poem. How is this not messing with his poem? Just a curious question. If you have narrowed it down that far, then go get the TC. My thoughts and opinions only. Respect.


  31. Zap… Seal Beach, Yep, air is yellowish, ash all over everything, smell of fires strong, Solid TV coverage all day all channels. Los Alamitos.

  32. Hoping this works, all but one cell tower around me has burned or been damaged. I’m okay, I was frantic last night, mostly for the communities around me.
    Thank you spallies for posting! 🙂
    And thank you all for well wishes and prayers. I’m hoping we can all do the same for all of California, there were over 15 firestorm that began last night from trees into lines. We heard it all on the scanner. It was terrible. Lots of loss and devastation.
    Focused, I got your email now, bahaha! Wait till I get better signal… ok.
    Xoxo all 🙂

    • I’m relieved to hear your ok jdiggins, my heart sank when I heard how close the fires were to you. Take care my friend… I will still send prayers for the communities in California fighting these fires…. yes you now have my email, use it anytime….
      Be safe… until next time… see ya jdiggins…

  33. I just got back from my 15th search trip and no chest. 🙁
    But I did see a bobcat and almost hit a beautiful 8 point buck!
    I am never disappointed when I visit the Rockies.


    • Hang in there randawg… sounds like you enjoyed your trip. Take what you learned and continue on your journey. I know it’s rough to come home empty handed but in the long run it will strengthen your solve.
      I love visiting the Rockies too…. take care and have a great day…… until next time… see ya

      • Yes I do ken. I unravel a little more of the puzzle each visit and I’m still confident in my spot.
        My advice to searchers (vetrans already know this) is to have a plan ‘B’, ‘C’, and ‘D’ lined up beforehand and it doesn’t hurt to have plans ‘E’, ‘F’, and ‘G’ ready just in case.
        There is nothing worse than driving 1,000 miles home and then wondering if you remembered to check that one spot on your “to search” list.


  34. What is meant by “Your effort will be worth the cold”? I have been struggling with this “clue”. The poem does not refer to a particular season of the year as far as I can discern. Does “cold” refer to something other than temperature? Since our search area is limited to 10,200 feet, it doesn’t seem to indicate high elevation. Opinions appreciated….

    • IMO, ff has written this poem such that he never mentions the gold until the very last word of the poem. He has then chosen to use cold as a rhyming word for gold. Of course the word cold could mean lots of things, but one simple meaning is that the Rocky Mountains are colder than many other parts of the world.

    • Benchmark. I’m not buying that. I can’t see Forrest picking a word at random just because it rhymes. “Cold” must be there for a specific purpose. One possibility is that it refers to nighttime. This could be another way (in addition to “tarry scant”, and “brave”) that Forrest is suggesting that the treasure is in a location such that it’s ownership could be questioned if the location was to become known…..so, better to be brave and retrieve it at night.

      • Or maybe early morning Tom. He could also mean that searching in the colder months when the leaves are gone from the deciduous trees you can see landscape details that are hidden the rest of the year.

        • And what about in the context of: “you’re getting colder”?​ as said by children playing a guessing or searching game to tell the person who is guessing or searching that he or she is getting further away from the answer or hidden object.

    • Tom B: if the cold in the statement is a literal reference to temperature, then perhaps the simplest explanation is that you will have to ford a creek, stream or river at some point to get to the chest’s location. In the Rockies, between those two elevation extremes and exclusive of caves, only moving water has the potential to be cold in any season at any time of day.

      But then there is the bronze chest itself. Because of its thermal conductivity, it will feel cold to the touch. Also, recall MW Weekly Words from 3/11/2016: “The chest weighs 42 pounds plus, best to have gloves.” Perhaps those gloves serve two purposes. However, I don’t see anyone hand-carrying that chest in the open, full or empty; the effort of carrying it should not involve any cold discomfort if it’s inside a backpack.

      • Hi Tom B: no, he never has. He said the chest is not underwater. He has been silent on whether or not a searcher will have to get wet crossing water, and has given advice on how to do so more safely.

        • Zap Tom –

          I would like to add that I cannot see Forrest fording anything four times. That’s my 2 cents.


        • As a life-long fisherman, I don’t think Forrest would be deterred by having to cross a shallow stream twice with a 20ish pound load. There are an awful lot of references to Fords and crosses in his books and Scrapbooks.

          • And to be technically correct, if he had to cross the shallow creek only once to get there, then he had to cross it 4 times in 2 trips.

            That is the scenario in my solve – IMHO


          • Zap…I agree that Fenn would not be deterred…IF, that was part of the necessary route to the hidey spot. You are also correct that there seem to be several refs. to fords and crosses…”in his books and SBs”…but not really sure that is set in stone in terms of deciphering the poem.
            Terms like “put in, cold, meek” and other poem words don’t necessarily infer “crossing” any creek or river. I’m not convinced….but, maybe.

          • Ken Zap et al –

            This is not necessarily a reference to temperature either. When I feel as if I have been left out in the cold that’s not a feeling related to temperature.

            And never forget that he needed, perhaps, to convey meaning, WHILE RHYMING WITH GOLD. Perhaps effort will be worth the MOLD didn’t work and COLD was closer. Or the word does not matter at all.


          • I’m not married to the idea that crossing a body of water will be necessary to retrieve the chest, but I would never rule out such a solution if that’s where the clues took me. After all, what better place to leave the chest than in a spot that requires crossing water? Prevents 99% of the cases where a person might accidentally stumble across Indulgence.

            Also, in the Gold and More chapter on the page immediately following the poem, he writes “I dreamed the other night that I had been reincarnated as Captain Kidd and went to Gardiner’s Island looking for the treasure.” That sounds suspiciously like crossing water to me.

          • If warm possibly means comfortable… But not as a temperature… Cold would mean, uncomfortable. Hence the thought of being brave… To take on a challenge.

            A dare, if you will… Like daring someone to spend the night in a haunted house….

          • Also lots of references to “slosh shoes”, “sloshing” and shallow water. Sloshing IMO is the sound made when crossing shallow water. Or “sloshing” might be the sounds made when you take a river trip and your “feet are in the water most of the way”.

          • Lnutz…yes. My first impression about “…worth the cold.” was very similar to your description. Not temperature related at all.
            And Zap…if Fenn’s dream was a hint, being on Gardiner’s Island could just be metaphorical, as in, isolated. You are right though…if the clues lead to the hidey…a searcher best follow them!

          • Zap. early on I had a solution that took me to Lower Hearst Lake in Montana. Thinking along the lines of an island of sorts and the chest being wet, this lake basically gets shallower and deeper depending on the snow melt from the mountain right there. When snow melted, it would form a small island in this shallow lake. When Fall/Winter came along, waters receded, making this island a lot bigger. Thus, the chest was wet at certain times. And the run-off made a nice little shallow creek. Elevation is a little over 8000′. And it used to be called Frog Lake.
            So I find it very possible that crossing some kind of water source is within the path. Didn’t find the chest, but did find a great blaze. So who knows, Gardiners Island just may be a lake at high elevation that fills and drains as the seasons go by, as it’s run-off flows down to the canyon below.

          • If you’re not willing to cross a some form of water (stream, river, etc.) you might as well stay home and play Canasta. Effort worth the cold is reference to water. IMO

          • FF, in TTOTC, had a chapter about his
            experience(s) in war. He probably
            crossed a lot of water during his time
            as a warrior. This should not be

        • I believe “Your effort will be worth the cold.”, is that the higher one goes the colder it gets.

          In my solve, with botg this last August, at about 10,000 feet, it was cold enough to wear a jacket.
          I don’t know if any of you have been at the tundra line, it is most always chilly or cold. In my hiking days I always wore a jacket at that altitude.

          So, IMO, “worth the cold”, has a lot to do with altitude.

          • in the cold all it tells is to go north away from the blaze – north is a direction and a little higher in altitude

          • frank, north doesn’t necessarily mean
            or imply “higher in altitude”, as far as
            I am concerned. Enjoy your vacation.

            The above is my opinion.

  35. Funny, Forrest isn’t technically a millennial but he sure does act like one. Who knows maybe writing 3, 4, or 20 memoirs will be what literature is to become.

  36. Frank,

    How in the world did you come up with to go North away from the blaze?

    The poem says, “If you’ve been wise and found the blaze,
    Look quickly down, your quest to cease,” IMO the treasure is right there below the blaze. And “worth the cold” doesn’t say go north, IMO, there is something that is cold, whether it’s cold water or temperature or snow.

    There are plenty of places in the Rockies that qualifies as cold without going to the direction of the North Pole. IMO, there is nothing in the poem that suggests to go North, South, East or West.

    Again IMO 🙂


    • Charlie M- if the chest is below the blaze – what happens to in the wood – now listen – your efforts will be worth the cold (north) if you are brave and in the wood – from the blaze you go north to in the wood – to look quickly is to look but not far – but terry scant with marvel gaze – and continue looking – and your efforts will be worth the cold – ill give you title to the gold – to look quickly down is to look not far its where its at just take the chest and go in peace – in my opinion

      • Frank your clues don’t match everyone, so for some searchers; wood, cold, etc… aren’t clues or hints, could be hints but not clues, or just words describing legalities.
        So while these are good to ponder, the majority if your effort should be http://www.h.clue1

        • W.R. its ok if my clues don’t match everyone – not everyone was born left handed – as far as the words describing legalities has nothing to do with the poem -the poem has nothing do with anything – its only a map to help you find a treasure chest imo

          • frank;

            I am not sure that you believe what you wrote, “-the poem has nothing do with anything – ” because you go on to say, “its only a map to help you find a treasure chest.” Isn’t THAT something/amything? JDA

          • Yup, variety is the spice of life that gives heartburn and very few are born amphibious too (Balki, shoutout if anyone remembers).
            I just see things a lol simple, like 9 clues between begin and halt. But hey I’m silly like following punctuation and all.

            So You went up a creek, found a blaze then if cold is north (maybe up a mountain heading north)

            What would in have you do with wood? Maybe a fallen log to kick over, or something else?

          • WR,
            “He hits from both sides of the plate. He’s amphibious.”
            Yogi Berra

            It’s quite possible that Yogi lifted the line from someone else. Most humor is recycled, I wouldn’t be surprised if the very first joke is still around in some form or another.

          • JW
            Guess that would work too and could have came from there, but was actually referencing Perfect Strangers, Balki. Whatever works.
            Plus I liked it because it is Fenny in the word play.
            Who knows we may just need to find a nice cold rivulet where Fenn hid a Dr Pepper as the blaze.

      • yes, read scrapbook 178 graciella, and look at the last paragraphs you will understand, family book indugence. (BIBLE) WHICH PSALM HE READS
        116 ff bathroom floor, see the 3 photo and what it looks like. (Bear)
        105,125,169,138,168,147,27,171172,173,174,177,179,122,117 mammoth, 127 ff cutout, 127 father object of ff.
        documentary and reportage
        scrapbook 163/167/61
         other scrapbooks
        104,105,114,123,124,125 friend shop explosion, 128,129 my eric sloane, 129 point: ceramic coin, 146 yard of your ff, the ceramic ducks in the pond and the wooden chair by the edge, I found one of this more swinging caidera on the banks of the river madson, 108 phone, 152 friend sally, imformaçoes, 169 bingo.
        1 stanza: location of the place
        2,3,4, stanzas: map
        5,6, stanzas: should be points in the treasure site together with 2,3 stanza that helps to find the end point.
        The poem, words of his FF, someone broke it to 900 years, this reminds me of Chinese poems, which in ancient times were only written poems, some centuries later was added images in the ancient poems of the place to translate the feeling of the artist.
        Remember his ff in one of his story he traveled to china with his friend that if I am not mistaken his name was JHON or JOHN, I THINK THAT HISTORY, has to do with sales of pictures of paintings false thing like that.
        Another story is about the chickens, which caught my attention, because the treasure contain golden nuggens of a chicken egg size, if this helps the researchers do not know, more who knows right.
        Another story is the 168 of your commander or general specer some so, who smoked pipe on your table before giving permission to your ff pilots your plane and your last words (DO NOT BREAK MY AIRPLANE), good to the north of holy faith there is a mountain full of riches, where in it was found a CACHIMBO that cost $ 16.000 DOLLARES, if this helps also I do not know, but it’s a coincidence I do not know.
        Its direction in its history resembles an aircraft navigator, example I do not speak that I have 81anos but yes that I have 41 with experience of 40, this seems direction in degree of airship to 41 east to 500 feet and to 1000 feet north some thus. ground

  37. For those slow winter months… something to think about… Eric Sloane didn’t date his letters or paintings (preface TTOTC). No postmarks on four TTOTC stories. A subtle nod to Sloane?

  38. I don’t believe that anyone dyslexic should spend too much time flogging
    the subject of maps. It might seem too much like spam.

  39. I don’t know exactly where FF planned on dying and hiding the treasure. So I pondered about where I would like to go and lay my body down. The answer that I came up with seems to fit the ideal. I can’t find it on the map. It’s only on an odd real estate page.
    That observation deck looks likes a good place to escape to for a respite from the world. And the canyon down would be my resting place.
    If only I could figure out how to get there. Does any body know ?

    • I went up there today, and it is steep. I could see the platform just 100 feet up the slope but it was just out of reach. It sucks to be disabled. It is an extremely beautiful spot. however the dirt road degrades the higher it goes, and there is no parking. Unless you really enjoy isolation, pass on this adventure.
      For people in northern New Mexico, go to La Cuava in the Jemez Mountains, west of the cauldera. Take Mica Road, turn left on Obsidian, then turn right on Beryl.
      Park Here:
      35°52’1.00″N 106°39’32.73″W
      Since it is a nature preserve on private property, leave nothing but footprints and stay on the trail.
      Some photos call it “Tent Rocks”, but that is another location on Cochiti Pueblo miles to the south east.

  40. Google Earth and finding the TC using it (beyond GE as a general map tool)… The only reference I can find where FF comments is from the Moby Dickens bookshop interview, where he says the following:

    “There is not a picture of the treasure chest on Google Earth.”
    “Because Google Earth doesn’t go down far enough.”

    (Shout out tarryscant.com for making finding the quote easy.)

    But that was in November of 2013 and technology has come a long way since then. So can someone that’s going to the book launch event coming up ask FF if the above quote remains true? Can you see the TC on Google Earth now? Because the implication (as I read it, so IMO) of the above quote is that it would be possible in theory if GE did “go down far enough”. Something to consider with respect to hidden, buried, etc. discussions.

    And since we’re here on this topic, thoughts on the following image (which is most likely a bush that found a crack in the middle of a rock somehow)?


    (So there’s no confusion, the image is not related to any potential WWWH, it was just the easiest place to put the image so I can link to it here.)

  41. Wow, awesome place. When my kids are older and settled i’m going to learn to fly a powered para glider and head out over Canyon lands National park. Only a very small percentage of which has been explored on foot by modern man. Who knows what I’ll see, low and slow. g

  42. Hi W.R.: moving the thread to the bottom because it’s getting too long to easily append to it. Apologies for misunderstanding your statement “This would be the short distance” — you weren’t saying this was the minimum distance Forrest might have traveled; you were differentiating between various terrain difficulty levels and the impact that would have on time. Fair enough.

    “I’m more concerned with a max distance than a min, if I don’t see my blaze by then, then it’s useless.”

    Well, that’s a separate subject, but I think if you don’t know your blaze before you leave home, you’re in a pickle.

    “Preston never gave a date of seeing it after 2003. In the forward He says, he saw it in 1990… then other times he saw it over the years, finally in 2010 it was gone. Do you have anything that points to him or anyone else seeing it past 2003 specifically?”

    The only evidence I’ve ever read was second-hand. Didn’t Crayton say he saw the chest on the kitchen table or something like that? I haven’t been able to dig up the quote. In any case, it matters little to me when he hid it. Forrest said he hid it when he was 79 or 80, and I choose to take him at his word. The odds are low that he was 80 because Preston said the chest was gone by August 2010, and there’s less than a 30% chance that Preston’s visit was after August 22nd.

    • Zap,
      My mind knows more than my fingers. The fingers tend to do as the please at times by not following all the directions. So I just blame digit for not conveying everything right.

      I don’t recall Crayton. But if was after 2003, I don’t see Fenn misspeaking and I’ll go with a dry-run. My train of thought was, if a 73yo Fenn could do it, but he attributed to an 80yo, then to me that makes the path even easier.

    • * * * * * * W.R. asked – “Preston never gave a date of seeing it after 2003. In the forward He says, he saw it in 1990… then other times he saw it over the years, finally in 2010 it was gone. Do you have anything that points to him or anyone else seeing it past 2003 specifically?” * * * * * *

      Craig Childs interviewed Fenn sometime in May 2009 for his book Finders Keepers (about the ethical dilemmas associated with archaeological artifacts).


      Chapter 14 of the book (published in 2010) recounts his 2009 visit with Fenn – in the course of which he saw and handled the Richard Wetherill bracelet that’s supposed to be in the chest.

      (Childs, to my knowledge, has never had anything to do with The Chase. I read most of his stuff in the early 2000’s – House of Rain is excellent, and Finders Keepers is very good too. When my brother first brought The Chase to my attention a few years ago, I thought “hey, isn’t he the collector guy from Finders Keepers?”).

      Like Zaph, I take ff’s statement about when he hid the chest at face value (2009/2010). And I’m also with Zaph in not seeing what difference it makes.


    • Zap –

      I agree that he was 79. I say he was 80 because just like with gas prices people automatically round down. To me there is a big difference potentially between what a 70 and 80 year old man can do physically.

      I will add this and you can ask Forrest. He could go get it now! So we should revise the RULE.

      Don’t go anywhere an 88 year old couldn’t go. Or 90 year old. When you ask him in 2 years he will still say he can get it. This is in my opinion and it is my opinion my opinion is best.

      If I was standing near the treasure I could smell opinion nuts

      • Thanks Jake, I don’t go out seeking additional information too much than what Fenn or close associates like this forward says.

        Lug explained why 2003 is important though, as I noted above, by attributed to someone older, in makes the trail much easier.
        Fenn also said it would be harder for him to get it now as he needs more breaks (paraphrase) So his stamina wouldn’t get him there easier, so the 500ft path off whatever distant this trail is, isn’t going to be steep either.

          • June 2017 – “I don’t know I could physically get it. I’m not as agile as I once was. … When I walk 50 yards, I have to sit down.”

          • JAK beat me to it: following the death of Pastor Paris, in an interview Forrest questioned whether he could still retrieve it.

          • Zap –

            Listen to yourself. YOU see hints everywhere.

            How far do you need to walk to retrieve the treasure? Forget your solve and answer the question. Based on what JK says the reporter said Forrest said.



          • Hi Lug: I wouldn’t say I see hints everywhere. Just where Forrest left them. 😉

            “How far do you need to walk to retrieve the treasure? Forget your solve and answer the question.”

            My most recent solve was busted through a thorough BOTG search in August, so I don’t know the answer to the question of how far one needs to walk. I know that *I* would never walk more than about a mile from my car because I think it’s ridiculous to think Forrest did. I certainly will never search as far as 2 miles from my vehicle, just as I will never search a state other than Montana.

          • Zap –

            I will always cherish this answer.

            You don’t see hints everywhere, just where Forrest left them.

            This is precious.

            Lugnutz love

          • or any season. I forget how he worded it. This one gives me pause, but then off on a tangent again. g

        • I simply do not see anywhere it relates to feet in the poem. FF did say some had been 200 ft and 500 ft from the treasure. He never said how far they walked or drove before they were within those parameters. The poem does say, “not far but too far to walk”

          There is some conjecture as to how far is too far to walk. This is prior to “put in below the HoB. From that part of the poem on, nothing is hinted about distance.

          I may have a clue somewhat how a 79 year old man carrying 20 lbs, twice, might be somewhat of a challenge depending on terrain. I’m 66 and a below the knee amputee could relate to some degree of difficulty and having loss strength because of the amputation..

          There is one place in the poem that he says, ” I’ve done it tired, and now I’m weak”, is a good indicator he was not as strong as he used be and he’s weaker after he hid the TC.

          I do believe the TC is not too far from where he parked his car. If I remember correctly and I can’t quote, he hinted that someone should be with the car, which leads me to believe the car was parked on a narrow road and not in a parking lot.

          In my solve the terrain is steep, which would greatly reduce the distance from the car. I’m going back to the same area where I did put botg and I did it alone.

          Just because it’s difficult for me with terrain and me being weaker than I was, is not saying FF would be at the time frail, but a good comparison.

          All in All IMHO

          • Hi CharlieM – After all the times of Forrest telling searchers not to search alone, it was interesting that he would suggest that we should leave our search partner in the car. I may be off base but that statement does suggest that the chest is very close to where you could park and the danger level is low enough that one person could retrieve the chest and be back to the car in mere minutes. This is my theory at this time.

          • HMA –

            I thought you were going to retrieve the TC in like June?? Oh wait, that’s right, you said something about leving it for Zap. Did he get it?

            Anywho, this may be the first time we agree on anything. I want to sharpen the point. From the TC I bet you can yell Found It and your partner at the car will hear you. But not see you.

            I guess you are at the car and Zap is Down at the TC?


          • I believe “I’ve done it tired and now I’m weak” probably means more than one thing, like many if not most, lines in the poem. However, one thing it may well mean is that Fenn hid Indulgence at an altitude he wasn’t used to. Santa Fe is just over 7100 feet. TC may be hidden up to 10,200 feet. For an 80 yr old man, that up-to-3,100 feet elevation gain is not insignificant, especially on the first or second day.

          • Elevation at the base of Santa Fe ski area is shown at 10,350′. I believe Mr. Fenn may not have had any problem with the 10,500′ elevation.

            This is an opinion, offered as a thought.

          • pdenver – And then there is all that high altitude flying Forrest did in the Super Sabre and while training pilots in Arizona. And while flying his Piper Plane all over the Rockies.

          • Hi Lug – Hopefully this post will get pushed through before it is buried.

            No, I did not search in June. The timing didn’t work for several reasons. I did conduct a search in August at the same area I was at in April but alas I did not spot the treasure chest. I’ll let you in on a secret if you promise not to tell anyone. Zap and I actually were in close proximaty on one day during a different month at the same time. How do you like those apples?

            To address your question about distance. IMO, a search partner at the car would be able to easily see and hear the other party. The party who retrieves the chest must be brave though. It will take guts! Again IMO.

            Question for you Lug. You seem to think the chest is in NM based off of a comment about an out of work redneck from TX. I haven’t found anything in the poem, relating to NM. In my research, the poem eliminates 3 of the 4 states from the start. Quite some time ago Forrest answered a question about his special spot. He said that there were places near where he few up that were special or something very similar. I don’t recall Forrest ever talking about growing up in or spending his youth in NM. My advice is to spend time with the poem. The poem will reveal precise information if you can see like Forrest does.

        • FMC –

          That’s not an opinion. I’m asking Zap what he would say if he was looking at the hint.

          He says “I like corn flakes” and you are all looking for Kellogg canyon in Montana. He says (combining the 2 statements days apart)

          I think I can retrieve it, I can’t walk 50 yards without sitting down.

          And not one of you sees a hint. I’m talking about consistency vs. confirmation bias.


          • Just leave it at everyone has ideas as to what distance it could be.
            I expressed my max ideas, Lugs his min.

            Great now somewhere between these is an indicator to leave supposed trail and get the chest.

            If there’s anything else to add then fine, otherwise having a closed mind will walk past it, not far enough….

        • Lug: I think the number 50 will end up having some significance to solving the chest’s location — Forrest uses that number a lot. 11 times in TTOTC and at least another 17 times in TFTW. I haven’t tallied the non-book instances, but there are plenty of them (like the one you mentioned).

          • JDA: I’ll take your action. 😉 To be honest, I haven’t found a clear connection to the area I think he hid the chest, but I can’t ignore all those 50s. Forrest is up to something!

          • Lugnutz: artists might, but I don’t consider Forrest an artist (stick figures, smashed cans, and bronze baubles nit withstanding.) He’s a warrior, a businessman, a fisherman, a gifted storyteller, a writer, husband, father and grandfather. Ironically, he’s demonstrated a love of learning — in spite of his lack of fondness for it as a child. I know you poo-poo the notion that Forrest continues to supply little hints here and there, but if and when the chest is found I think you and a lot of others are going to have a coronary on that score.

          • Zap I think you’re over romanticizing Fenn.
            I’m envious of him as he had true freedom.
            To hop on a horse and wonder around. Can’t do that these days.
            Take a plung in whatever water he pleased. Can’t do that either.
            Wondered around where ever he pleased. Can’t do that now.
            Let a 13yo out of sight in YS and it’s 911, you’re the worst parent, and everything else.
            And others but the gist is there.
            We live in the safest times as far as kids go, yet so paranoid of bumps in the night that we over compensated to a mental disorder.
            I forgot my point now but I wouldn’t dwell on Fenn being any supremely better person than anyone else. It’s my experience that when one does something like this there s lots of Brown nosing going on that people tend to be fake.
            Now I’m depressed, wish I could go ride the range… oh well

        • I agree with most of what I’m reading here. There are a lot of factors to consider when determining distance and time traveled. I just wanted to re-post another relevant Forrest quote that I’m surprised nobody else shared in this conversation yet. When asked how far he walked in a single trip from his car he said:

          “I walked less than a few miles if that will help.”

          Because of this, I’ve tried to use the maximum one-way travel distance limit of 3 miles. The average human walks on level terrain at about 2 miles per hour, so a 3-mile trip could conceivably be done in 90 minutes. Multiply times 4 and one could do 2 out-and-back trips in 6 hours within an afternoon.

          But like I said, a lot of other factors to consider like terrain, off-trail/on-trail, elevation gain, quantity and length of breaks along the way, etc.

          Good luck to everyone, and for what it’s worth, I don’t think I’ve read anyone posting any unreasonable ideas today regarding possible hiking distances.

          • Blex – Forrest’s Scrapbook about Avalanche Lake cited that lake was “a few miles” from the Madison Slide. As the crow flies, I remember determining that it was quite a bit more than 3 miles. Just paying close attention to Forrest speak…

          • I’ve always found “I walked less than a few miles if that will help,” a bit curious. Does he speak he walked less than a few miles for the two total trips he made to hide the treasure chest (one to the hiding area, back to the vehicle, return to the hiding area, and return to the vehicle)? Or, does he speak less than a few miles from his vehicle to the hiding spot?

          • I’m not sure if it’s a matter of ‘can’t be honest,’ but perhaps to keep everyone guessing. 🙂

  43. And the other quote at the time courtesy of locolobo

    June 16, 2017 – post12015.html#p12015
    I will soon be 87 and I could go back and get it if I were so inclined, I think.

  44. All this is good stuff…especially remembering the various quotes and such. Just sounds like more reverse engineering…and less work on the clues. Don’t get me wrong…I find myself drifting in those directions…trying to eliminate or justify. I’m going to keep taking heavy doses of poem reading and hopefully the pieces unravel without bias.
    With all of the folks that have emailed and spoken with Fenn you can bet that he has had a lot of words put in his mouth without even having to think…no misdirection…if it’s harmless, why would he correct it ?

    • Ken
      I don’t believe it’s reverse engineering as much as it is as being aware of potential surroundings.
      If true, those that solved the 1st 2 clues wasn’t thinking of the possibilities once they got past them. (I classify items Fenn offers withiut being asked specifically to be potentially friught with exaherations, not lies or misleading, just grandiose if you will)Or they got somewhere for the 1st 2 clues but didn’t understand those.

      So an open mind is needed and need to be quick thinking and adjust as needed.

      • True WR…to a point. Fenn has said it a gazillion times…decipher the clues in the poem and they will lead you to the chest. He has also said there is no other way and no shortcuts. Open mind is very good…but don’t let the hint virus get you! It’s all good WR…I just know that solving the clues is going to result in the “winning solve”. Thanks for your input and good luck.

        • Ken
          My 1st solve attempt took me straight to sinks canyon using nothing but the poem, everything aligned perfectly, nothing forced. But no chest. Then found a few hints in the book and thought that’s it for sure. Still nada.
          Then Fenn commented about how there is many wwwh and most is north of SF, since sinks is but 1 of a very few, in the world, then it couldn’t be it. And the poem led wrong and hints point elsewhere, I thought I had 1 of the main ones, but didn’t know it’s meaning.
          Hints are needed from the book to solve this.

          But wait, you may say, but Forrest said only the poem is needed.
          Answer, yes. But where is the poem found?
          Exactly, in the book.

          • Yup…agree. I am not a poem purist and also know that TTOTC, GE and/or a good map are good research materials. After a number of years into this…I also have become aware that knowing the poem inside and out will eventually click with the hints in the book. Remember that Fenn has also mentioned/warned that the blogs should be read for entertainment….read the poem like you are putting an X on a map….look at the poem as if it were a map, because it is, and like any other map, it will show you where to go if you follows it’s directions.
            Directions: instructions that tell you how to go to a place.
            Also Fenn answered an email where he was asked if TTOTC had the correct answer/hint to wwh, hob, blaze in it. Answer, NO. I think the hints are not definitive…but more in line with methodology of thinking or writing. Have a great time with this…and your input is fun.

          • Ken,
            Good luck, i have a few, no idea if I found them all or which is the main two. Let me know when you find Yogi Bear.

    • Ken ~”…hopefully the pieces unravel without bias.”

      Exactly… and that is why the discussion of, well, any part[s] of the poem is good [ and comical at times… yeah, I’ll call that an opinion…] As you said ~”…trying to eliminate or justify.”
      IMO, that is the fault of thinking about ‘one’ ATF reference [be it a Q&A, interview, etc.] and running with it as the only possible thought.
      Example; Some would like to think fenn hid the chest in 2003 because of the comment he took 15 year to get it just right… even with all the dozens of comments fenn repeats, and from the book… about being 79 or 80, or at almost 80 when he hid the chest… because of a mathematical thought that fenn started and “ended” the poem in the “first 15 years” [ 1988-2003 ] Please some one show me a quote where fenn stated those 15 years of work [ working on the poem ] was only done in the first 15 years?
      The most obvious ‘thought’ here is [ and if we take all the ATF comments we know of to date ] fenn basically work on the poem for an approx. 15 years out the 20 plus years from first thought to the actual execution of hiding the chest. [ not unlike fenn’s calculating how many folks are in the search by estimating how many e-mails he receives on any give year – it more than likely a 15 year process, than 15 years in consecutive order { see what I did there.. lol} ]. But a few would like to think that their solves stretches for 10 or more miles and a younger fenn would be able to do this trec… OK, but we have fenn staying he followed the clues, walked less than a few miles, hid the chest in one afternoon etc. etc. and folks want to overlook those points and fill the crack with their math and solutions.

      Sorry, ken, I got rambling again… the point is… it’s good to have chats about those possible whatIF miles and thoughts to see if an other bloggers comment might spark a light. And if for nothing else… lol, it is comical to read how other just know they are right because they managed, to figure anything out, with the use of just ‘one’ comment out of all the comments of over 7 years…

      Your correct when you said ~”…hopefully the pieces unravel without bias.” Or I think as fenn said… don’t get target fixated…

      • yup…it is comical. I agree that tossing things around can unearth some possibilities…but the lengths some go to, to be right, is mind boggling.
        thanks for the input seeker…

  45. I see the speculation about how long he was gone, how far he drove, and how far he walked as futile efforts. What possible help can any of this be in solving the poem clues? None that I can see. If we can’t determine the location of where warm waters halt and Home of Brown, then even knowing exactly how far he walked from his car to the treasure is of no benefit.

      • I actually enjoy the speculation, and I already expressed my opinion on the distance involved. I just don’t see it as meaningful to solving the clues.

      • Please excuse my grumpiness today. Just frustrated at my own lack of success in solving the clues.

        • It’s all good. It think distance is worn out, so what’s next? Maybe Hobbit can help with meekness.

          • ok then, but only this once, are you both listening good?

            the precise meaning to “no place for the meek” is..zzzZZZzzzwaitzzzZZfuzzy wifiZZzzat the mozzzz

            zZZdarnthosezzZZzzRussianhackersZzzz [-end of transmission-]

        • Tom B
          the frustration will not help you but it only gets worse, do the following, read scrapbook 168 last paragraphs and you will understand my message, there is a word there that will help you if you stop and think and you will remember what I mean, find out what he is reading

          • Tom B
            the frustration will not help you but it only gets worse, do the following, (read scrapbook 168) last paragraphs and you will understand my message, there is a word there that will help you if you stop and think and you will remember what I mean, find out what he is reading

        • Tom B
          SEE ALSO 138, AND 168 SCRAPBOOK
          I HOPE TO HELP

    • Tom B.: such speculation is helpful for killing bad solutions. Just as if your solution puts the treasure chest at 12,000 feet, or in Utah, or in a mine, cave or tunnel, or in the desert, or at the bottom of a lake, if it requires walking 15 miles, or gaining 2000′ of elevation 1-way, it’s just dead wrong. People can quibble about that maximum distance or altitude gain, but the fact remains that the hiking distance is not unconstrained.

      Years ago, people were taking 4-wheel-drive vehicles to access extremely remote locations. Despite Forrest saying he drove a sedan,
      searchers are probably ~still~ heading up narrow, rutted, ordinary passenger-vehicle-intolerant Forest Service roads. People love to pick and choose which inconvenient truths from Forrest to ignore.

      • LOL Zap,
        A four door Jeep Grand Cherokee 4 wheel drive is a “sedan”; ~ an enclosed automobile for four or more people, having two or four doors.

        It does ponder the question… [ and because fenn would surely know the location well ] if he did go [ for lack of a better term ] off road a bit.

        Maybe this is why he said; “If you can’t make two trips from your car to your solve in several hours, then don’t go.” It’s interesting to me that he use “to’ your solve” and not something like… ‘through’ or ‘travel’ your solve, or even travel the clues.

        Wouldn’t it be nice to know if fenn parked his vehicle [ sedan ] in a parking lot/area, or not unlike what his family did, drove the car in the woods to secret their supplies for next years trip, that was always there when they went back.

        But I’m pickin up what ya puttin down… some folks just seem to like following the mountain goats.

        • Dear Forrest,
          Do I need a 4 wheel drive to hunt for the treasure? And if I did, would it just be seasonally, as helpful in winter months? ~ Linda

          Linda, anyone traveling in the Rocky Mountains should ride in a vehicle that can get them out of tough spots, especially in winter. Once a friend and I were in some lonely mountains during a violent wind storm. Trees fell across the narrow dirt road in front of us and behind. We didn’t have a chainsaw but we had a long chain and were able to drag the trees aside and pass. Bad luck is a capable adversary. You can get by without food for a few days but you must have water, warm clothing and matches.f

          Looks to me as though he didn’t rule it out…

    • zaps – i def agree with you that driving a sedan up a forestry access road is certainly no place for the meek 🙂

      • Hey there flat weather.
        That’s a good question. How many times was Fenn meek in his required literature?

      • Hi WR – ummm.. is the answer three? or five maybe? ..or seven? ..or was he meek eight times??

        ( ..am i getting warm yet? 🙂 )

        • I think a 9 sided die would give us a definitive answer and settle the question once and for all.

        • Hobbit
          You’re a hot hobbit, nothing else but someone watching us while we think, but I think I’m going to ask the ghost or our friend Graciella about which psalm the Bible should read, maybe there’s one in this psalm that helps. family that the brass chest kept inside his heart.
          Scrapbook 178 painting by Graciella

    • Tim B

      We were discussing the people that have died. I am telling people tbey dont need to take on any danger whatsoever in this chase.

      The 80 year old man, riddled with cancer, scarred by war, unable to lift 42 pounds, made 2 trips from a sedan to the hiding spot in one afternoon.

  46. Maybe people should focus on the poem. And not speculate how far or how high and stop working on conjecture. When I first went out botg I simply worked on the Poem, not having read the book and not even following any blog or website. I believe the focus should be wwh, HoB, the blaze and finding the treasure.

    No conjecture as to what F meant in regards to what the poem actually says, examples: thinking there are hidden meanings in the 1st and 5th stanzas or what,wise, means, as I have seen. It is floundering as I believe it is. If you can’t figure out what the poem says in English and finding the subtle clues that are in the book I believe the homework is not being done. I think reverse engineering the poem is absolutely ridiculous, that is like saying I know where TC is but to validate where TC is I’ll go backwards just to find the starting point.

    I truly believe more time should be spent figuring out the location of important things. Believe me I am not saying this to upset or anger anyone. Trivial things don’t matter, the meat of the poem does. There is nothing in the poem that is trivial.

    I was a criminal investigator, trivial things, conjecture and hear say simply does not work ever. I like to think hard work, studying would have better results. Geography, a little knowledge and a little imagination as to what the blaze might look like.

    The poem is a map for all purposes along with some descriptions, such as no place for the meek, water high, no paddle up your creek, too far to walk, etc… will get you a lot further.

    I believe as many of you have done, believe their solve is correct until botg prove right or wrong. If I find my solve is incorrect, then I need to do more work on the area I’ve chosen or start over from scratch.

    I hope again, that no one takes what I’ve said as a lecture or me saying you are wrong or give the impression I am better.

    It is in my opinion and my hope the meat is paid more attention, instead of conjecture, hearsay and not twist things just so things fit. Once again this is IMHO and nothing more.:-) Realistic thoughts I believe will help us all.

    • Good advice CharlieM. Easy to get distracted by comments made after the poem was published. The clues are in the poem.

    • CharlieM: if solving the poem was a simple matter of correctly interpreting the meanings of the words in it, the treasure would have been found years ago. The poem is not just simple words (Forrest has said so!!), and IMO you have no chance of solving WWWH if you insist on this interpretation. And it goes w/o saying that if you can’t solve WWWH, finding the chest is out of the question.

      It doesn’t take 15 years to write Red fish blue fish old fish new fish. Don’t oversimplify the poem. Read up on Masquerade. There are lots of ways to conceal information.

        • Hi Kanafire: no, Kit Williams’ Masquerade was a bit before my time. It was solved long before I ever heard of it. But it was a landmark book — the first armchair treasure hunt. And I would be surprised if Forrest wasn’t aware of it when he designed his puzzle poem.

      • Zaphod,

        I believe that correctly identifying wwh is the main key. If one could do that the rest will fall into place except the blaze which I believe will need a little imagination.

        A very good example, F sees different things in the tiles in his bathroom as he is using his imagination. This I believe is what is needed for the blaze.

        I believe the biggest holdup in solving the poem is recognizing the blaze. 🙂

        • CharlieM
          yes it can be, but if you watch tiles in the bathroom of your ff in the third photo, what you will see very big I found a little crazy, but I did see a big bear, this is think outside the box, I think like your ff, being a solo pilot, said this your book and your poem are like the instruments of a second war fighter plane, think about it for a second, just do not go crazy, and use this in the poem, so do not break my poem would be like a plane hunting and you are the researcher and pilot.
          I hope this helps to help, your age of 79 or 80 is of high value, even your ff says that it was 79 or 80.
          the interpretation is of each one, his poem looks like a Chinese poem, as well as his trip to China with his friend John, because a Chinese poem exists poem of 900 years that were only written, and some years or centuries ago an image of the place in the lateral poem representing the place the meaning of it on the artist, I will copy this because its FF say use the poem and a good map, well it can be a geographic map of (waters, trees, mountains, streams, clean water maps as the law of the new Mexico and Colorado that shows certain places and last.
          I hope someone helped you in this treasure hunt and be safe there as a pilot.

        • I recall FF spoke of warm waters as being “comfortable”. Could “nice” be a synonym for comfortable. Very Gneiss !

        • In his radio interview of Oct 2010 he stated that a person with resolve and imagination would be able to solve the poem and find the TC.

          From there many additional hints have come from Forrest, so let’s put it all together. I know everyone says this, but now I think I have it figured out, and the blaze.

          No boasting or anything like that, because I now have a complete solve, but until I prove it my solve is not “a correct solve”.

          I believe Forrest walked no more than 2,000 feet from the car to the hiding place. The rise in elevation in my solve is about 250 feet.

          My opinions only of course.


        • Hi CharlieM: WWWH is certainly critical to getting you in the right general location by pinpointing the starting spot, but it’s obviously far from sufficient to solve the whole thing. The specific skills and imagination required to nail down that first clue are apparently insufficient to solve all the remaining clues. After all, the first searchers apparently solved WWWH many years ago, and yet the chest is still out there. Additional puzzle-solving skills must be needed to progress beyond the first two clues. It wouldn’t surprise me if the earliest folks to get WWWH threw in the towel after a couple years of failing to make additional progress.

          • Zap. I think that the ones who “solved” the first two clues were not convinced they had done so. If they were committed to their identified “where warm waters halt” location, I do believe they would have solved the remaining clues.

    • CM – is there any substance to the rumours that Professor Plum did it using the candle-stick in the library??

      remember, imagination may well be a key factor in this puzzle

  47. I woke up very early this morning with a thought; I wondered how I would go about hiding a treasure in an area that was some place from my past.

    What is it about this place that would stand out? What makes it significant? If someone hadn’t been there before, what would draw them to *this* spot? The area could be significant, but the *spot* is amazing!

    I am from Michigan. I was born here and lived here all my life. But what if I had spent a significant time in Illinois, Wisconsin, and Ohio? Now, I want to point you to a singular place and I want to use a poem to draw you to that spot, but it could be in any of those four states. How would I go about constructing a poem of clues?

    I ask this question as a means to help us think how Forrest thought when he was constructing the poem.

    It’s difficult for me to create clues to get to my secret Michigan hiding spot without referring to names of major places. To speak in terms of geological features or temperatures of waters is simply not reasonable. I Identify things by their name.

    And personally, my first clue would try and rule out the other three states immediately.

    simply put, a good exercise would be to sit back and think about a special place in your past. Then, think how you would build a poem to lead someone to that exact spot.

    This might help you get a better understanding of the poem’s hidden treasures.

    • Sikeston,
      WhatIF, there are no such things as ‘states’?

      Might we be thinking too close to the present day and not enough in the past or future… Lets say, for example, we’re looking at GE… which is nothing more than an aerial view the land, or viewing from a plane… Do we see states, borders, boundary lines? Will that particular road we see still be there in 50 years or was it there 50 years ago? or 100 or 1000 years down the road…

      The book [TTOTC] GE “and/or” a good map… [one or the other?]
      The more detailed the map, the better… [ details of the “right map”?]
      Marry the clues to a map… [ “or” GE ]

      What “details” are we actually looking for?
      I think, some of the problem with certain ways of looking at maps ‘or’ GE is; we want to see the man created details and overlook the natural details.
      Hence, the thought we might need to drive an unknown distance by forcing the use of a road that seems to connect, what we hope, is the next clue.
      IMO, this forces the clue to be individual places or locations…
      Might it be possible that the ‘components’ of the clues all relate to the same thing? Thinking alone the lines of synergy ~ *The whole is greater than the sum of its parts*
      However, without all the parts… we will not be able to precisely locate a 10″ sq piece of property.

      Seeing that there are many WWWH in the RM’s, it would also be reasonable to assume there are many canyons that relate to many of them as well, or whatever NFBTFTW refers to as well… etc.

      IMO [ only ] a state doesn’t narrow down anything as to where to search. Even deciphering wwwh isn’t very helpful as far as understanding all the remaining clues… That’s been done with no success, and many walked by everything.
      Something, seems to be missing from the connection to the rest of the components. Or are we reading the poem wrong as to, where the consecutive/contiguous clues are placed on a map/GE or seen from above?

  48. there are a couple of hints in my book that will help you with the clues, if you can recognize them. Sounds rather oblique and not so specific.

  49. A number in the ’50s’ could be a part of the final Long/Lat figures.

    Couldn’t hurt to read #32 in the Hardy Boys Series.

    The cover of The Flyer’s most current memoir could be looked at using different ways/methods.

    Thinking out loud!

    • This may be true, SL. I’ll have to look at the particular book you speak. When I was growing up, I use to read the Ellery Queen mysteries. As for the title of his new memoir, it does make one pause to the usage of words and to look at the poem ways.

        • It must be one of those days. Let’s try it again. ‘…look at the poem in different ways.’

          • pdenver
            Look at the poem as if you were a pilot of a second war hunt, the poem and his book are your instrument of direction, I hope you understand my message, being a thought well out of the box like an earth pilot, use the poem the book is a good geographic map, which could be about, trees, streams, mountains, a map that says about every thing of this.
            Well that’s how I think, this is my opinion.

  50. I believe one can see the blaze from GE before you put botg. I believe I know what the blaze is. I used some subtle hints from the book TTOTC. I also used what F talked about seeing things in the tiles in his bathroom, using a little imagination.

    Also my interpretation of “tarry scant with marvel gaze” I believe it’s an instruction from F.

    This is what I believe he is saying, Don’t delay you have limited time to get the treasure, stop gazing at your marvelous find.

    So why am I sitting here and not putting btog? I don’t think it is safe to go because of the resent snows in the mountains. I will go next July after most of the snow melts off, so I won’t be working around snow. And I don’t have a 4 wheeler.

    To be careful I will look at the poem more, just in case I may be wrong. There’s no harm in doing more studies.

    Yee Haw!! 🙂

  51. This page is now closed to new comments. To continue the conversation please use the current odds n ends page..

Comments are closed.